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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Rhoades
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Rhoades_Jack</span></span></strong><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: Okay. We'll go ahead and start. And if we could start by having you say your name and then spell it for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure, my name is Jack L., middle initial </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Lewis, Rhoades, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">R</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-H-O-A-D-E-S.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Great. Thank you very much. And my name is Bob Bauman and this is October 16</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX78204124">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start with, if you could talk about your family's background. What brought them here? What brought you and your family here to the Tri-Cities, and when, and that sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure, well my dad worked for DuPont in the early '40s--like '40, '41, '42--in a TNT plant for the war effort, and he had a college degree in chemistry. So when the Manhattan Project kicked off in late '43, he was one of the people selected out of DuPont's Joliette Plant to go down and train on the chemistry of plutonium at Clinton Works, which later became Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It was located in Oak Ridge, probably an Army Depot at the time. And when he was transferred to the Clinton Works, why, my mom and my younger sister and I—I would have been about four then—went back to the ranch in Colorado and lived with her parents until my father got transferred up here to Hanford in like April of '44. And we finally got a house, or were on line to get a house, by August '44. And so what I can remember--I mean I was a young kid, but this was pretty traumatic, all the excitement of the war effort--but my mom got a telegram, which was hand-carried out to the farm by the postman. And it just simply said, go to Denver, get on train such and such. There'll be a one-way ticket for you waiting, get off at Hinkle, Oregon and the government will take care of you from there. So it was amazing because the train had some servicemen on it, but the preponderance of people on this train were women, just like my mother, headed to Hanford with two or three screaming kids. Everybody was trying to carry a couple suitcases, trying to carry a kid or drag a kid. We got off the train in Hinkle, Oregon—which is out like the armpit of America—and it was dark. It was probably midnight. And the Green Hornets, or the old Army buses, were there with a bunch of MPs. And the soldiers were really great. They helped all the women get their luggage off and loaded us all up into buses and drove over-- course we had to go the long way around Wallula Gap to Hanford. And the parking north of the Federal Building was all administrative and dormitories. So my dad had actually been in a dormitory there with a roommate for six months. And so he was out front waiting when the bus got there, along with tens of other guys. And so his roommate had gotten moved to another room, so there was like two cots in there. And my mom and dad had one cot, and my sister and I had another cot. And we lived there for several weeks until his name came up </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and we moved into an F house on—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Jadwin now, but it used to be Goethals—down in the 300 block. There used to be Campbell's Grocery Store across the street. That's the way life started for us. I was five at the time, but my birthday was in late October, so I started the first grade in Lewis and Clark, which was one of the first schools that was occupied by students because they were still building the houses toward the north. I think maybe Marcus Whitman was in place, and later on Jefferson was built. But there were so many kids that when my mother took me to school, I was assigned to go to school from 6:00 AM to noon. And then other kids came in and went from 1:00 to like 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And so nobody had a car. You just were on foot. And then of course, the government had the Green Hornet buses for transporting people around town to a limited extent, but mostly for transporting workers out to the 200 Area. My dad was actually was the first plant manager of T Canyon, which was one of the two bismuth phosphate plants for producing uranium from the fuel from B Reactor. He </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">later became the manager of 231-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Z. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they first started processing plutonium, the end result at Hanford was plutonium nitr</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ate, and they had to reduce it. It would</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> come out of T and B Canyon</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s as a fluid liquid. And so 231-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Z then con</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">densed it down to like a green Jell-O, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's what the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y flew to Los Alamos. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And then Los Alamo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s actually converted the green Jell-O</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> to the metal which went into t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he first Trinity explosion. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">even though everybody knows about Nagasaki because of the plutonium there, ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e was actually a third pit that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was available. And after Hiroshima, Tibbets flew back to the United States to g</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">et the third pit in case it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">needed. But, fortuna</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tely, the Japanese surrendered. So after the war was over,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> my dad got promoted up to what was called an area supervisor. He man</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">aged all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the plutonium activities because they'd started a new building that was called 234</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-5, or Z Plant. And Z Plant was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the plant that produced the pits during the Cold War, and that's the nuclear core</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So what they made down at Los </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Alamos for Trinity and Nagasaki, they transferred the production and the production </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">line up to the building in 234-5 </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and he was a manager of that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I remember, in later years, my dad talking about the building was divided into two </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">parts. There was the top secret </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">half and the secret half, and the workers didn't know who was on the othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r side. They had entrances from </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">different directions and they never communicated. And the whole build</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing had—the doors were like a bank vaults, not three </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">foot thick, but they were steel bank vault doors. And he said he had to memoriz</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e over 100 combination locks in the building. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd to him, that was one of the more challenging tasks that he had to do.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And how long did he work at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We left in '50, and it ultimately caused his demise. But he had, according to the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">health physics people, he ended </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up dying of stomach cancer. And so there was a 50-50 chance that it was cause</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d by working at Hanford. But he </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had developed really severe ulcers. And they eventually had to cut out half of his stomach</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because it just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">perforated and he</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> kept almost bleeding to death. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so we moved to Texas and he went into business with one of his brother</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s in Odessa, Texas selling real </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">estate and insurance. And later moved back in about 1960 and he then worked for Unit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed Nuclear, and he was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">manage</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r of extrusion press for N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eactor fuel. And then later on was hir</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed by DOE and was a director of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">safety for DOE.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And what was your father's name?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Paul Gordon Rhoades.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so during the war period when you were in first grade, did you have any idea of what your father was doing?</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What he was working on? What his job was?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No, absolutely nothing. And he was absolutely paranoid about the secrecy aspec</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t. I can remember that vividly. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And I can remember when news of the bomb was released on the radio, and my</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> mother called him on the phone </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out at the plant. When she said, did you know that the bomb they dropped on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Japan was made in Hanford? And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he slammed the phone down, wouldn't even talk to her. He viewed working at Hanford as th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e same way a marine </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">would view going ashore in Iwo Jima. It was his duty. In fact, he was not really f</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or going after the compensation stuff that I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was voted in in 2000.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Did he at some point then talk about what he was doing out there? What he--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Not much really. I mean, he did have anecdotes</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, like</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> talking about the Green Run,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> when they released iodine-139. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And one of the things I remember him talking about was arriving at work in a bus. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And ruthenium is something that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">can't be filtered out in the sand filters on the plutonium processing plants, and s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o it would condense on the side of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the towers because the chimney was so tall that it would cool off and then it'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">condense on the inside of the--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">while there'd be a change of conditions and this stuff woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d flake off, and go out the top </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of the stack, and be like snowflakes falling on the ground, and they have a short liv</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed half-life. So the guys would </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">get off the bus. They'd have to put on gauze mask and booties and everything, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and walk into the building, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">then get decontaminated before they </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entered the building. And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that was the s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tart of their eight-hour shift. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But there was no question that production was paramount. And there's no quest</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ion in my mind that what DuPont </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">did with the knowledge that was available in those days for designing the canyo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ns and the reactors, was nothing short of brilliant. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And even though people are upset with the environmental contamination--bec</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ause we basically have got five square miles</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or five by five, 25 s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">quare miles that's contaminated from the soil to t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he groundwater out there in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reas. But compared to what they did in Russia, which was dump it straight into the lake that fed out un</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">der </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Arctic Circle, DuPont took advantage and was farsighted beyond belief in my </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">professional estimation. I just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">marvel at how DuPont did on designing the reactor, and designing the canyons, and having them work safely.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You say your father didn't really</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> talk about it a whole lot--his work—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">did he ever ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">press any concerns about safety </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at all or was he--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Never. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n fact, DuPont was--as I grew up, and then as I worked later and they w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere down at Savannah River, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when I was working at Hanford--DuPont probably had the highest reputation for s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">afety of any large organization </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">in the nuclear industry. At Savannah River, if a guy climbed up a ladder, and did som</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ething stupid, and fell off and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">broke his arm at home, and he came</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> to work and they found out that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> he had b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">een unsafe at home, then he had </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">time off. I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, he</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was punished for what he did on the weekend because he w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">as not thoughtful in his safety process. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But DuPont, I held them in extremely high regard, high reputation. And they were, when you think a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bout it, they did this for a dollar</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. They definitely were part of the war effort that sacrificed for the good</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of America. They weren't in it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to make money or anything like that. They just were doing what they were paid to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">do. And they got out as soon as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they could. And then they came back and did </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">second stint when they were as</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ked. They were the only company </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that the government trusted. So they built Savannah River.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I want to go back to talking about when you first arrived and you were five years old, do you remem</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ber any sort of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first impressions that you had, or early memories of first arriving in Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Oh, it was, of course, for a kid in the first grade</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> exciting because everybody was the same. They were all on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">foot, and they were all new. In fact, that kind of curiosity anecdote was on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> day as I was walking to school </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">with my mother, and we g</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ot about half way to the school. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd another woman wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o's coming in on a side street, and she had a little boy. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd my mother just about passed out. It turned out i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t was her college roommate, who </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they hadn't seen since she graduated from college. And they both had gone thei</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r separate ways and it ended up </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that they are actually living in the house behind us. And they renewed their friends</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hip from college and it went on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">until they both passed away.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You mentioned that in first grade, you started at 6:00 AM. There was so many chi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ldren that was a way they could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">serve the needs of all the families</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> with children</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. How long did that last? Did that last through first grade or--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah, it p</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">robably did last the first year. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut by the time the year had</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> gone by and as a year progressed, they were </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">building hutments out alongside the school. So </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">asically, the first grade was about t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he only time I went to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school inside of a building. And maybe the sixth grade up in Jefferson</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I went inside a b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">uilding, but the rest of time I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was always in a hutment. There were just more kids than there was space. But y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eah, that was sparse. I mean, you didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e a car. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">The </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">only entertainment was playing b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ridge and softball. They had a very organized</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> adult softball league, so that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the entertainment. There was no stores to buy Christmas gifts or anything. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You ordered whatever you wanted </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out of Sears and Roebuck in July, and it got back-ordered, and y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ou got it in the following July. But when </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Griggs opened over in Pasco that was a big thing because when I wanted a b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ike</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd when my dad bought me a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bike, basically, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e had to borrow somebody's car. And we drove up to Ya</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">kima, and then he came home and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ass</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">embled it, and turned us loose. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">For kids, the basic entertainment was skating. And they had concrete tennis courts up by Lewis and Clark--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">south end of Lewis and Clark--and so that was the only surface that you could roller skate on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, because you had </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">those old clamp on roller skates that you tightened with a key that just hooked on to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> your heel and the sole of your </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">shoe. And so we were just constantly roller skating. There wasn't other entertainment. Th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere was just recess at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Were there any movie theaters, anything like that?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah, there were. There were two movie theaters. And every weekend your dad</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> gave you a dime. And you could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">get in for a nickel, I think, and get popcorn for a nickel or something like that. Probab</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ly everything you stood in line for—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> mean everything—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">there was j</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ust a line beyond human belief. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Like when it was haircut time, the only barbers in town at that time were dow</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n at the Allied Arts, down below </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Jackson's bar. And so, I don't know, they had two or three barbers in there. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o Saturday morning, the boys and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">their fathers would show up to get their haircuts. And so there'd be a line of 100 kid</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. There wouldn't be no adults. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They were all up at the bar playing pool and having a beer while the kids stood in lin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e waiting to get a haircut. But when </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Ganzel’s</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> came in was like night and day. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Even shopp</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing at the grocery store,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> you had to become friends with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the butcher. If you didn't know </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">somebody in the grocery store, and they befriended you and gave you a heads up that, hey, there's some</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">marshmallows coming into town, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> you just did without. You ate a lot of canned fruit and vegetables and stuff</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">like that. And people were always doing their own chickens and putting them up. But it was just pretty </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">spartan</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> T</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey gave you a house. I don't know if my dad even paid any rent. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Basic</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ally, they gave him grass seed. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They ga</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ve him coal. We just had a real nice house. And my parents had borrowed s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">omebody's pickup, and they'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">driven up Yakima and bought some furniture, and brought it home one piece at a t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ime. But we lived down there on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Goethals for, probably, from '44 to '49, or something like that. And then we mo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ved up on McMurray, and then we </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">left in '50 and went down to Odessa, Texas.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What about institutions like churches? Were there churches for people to go to on Sundays in those early years?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We didn't. It wasn't because my parents didn't believe in God, it's just like we didn't go to church. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mean, we'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have had to walk. I'm not even sure where--I honestly do not remember wher</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e the closest church would have </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">been. I'm sure there were churches</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> though</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because the government set off areas fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r parks, they set off areas for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">schools, they set off areas for churches, very thorough.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What about any community events that--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Not much. They had Richland Days. They had like the polio March of Dimes drives.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Actually it was probably after—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">etween, let's say, '45 and '50—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when Camp Hanford really had gotten establishe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d and they had moved in missile </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">people. This was just a sizable number of soldiers up there in North Richland, but </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they had much better facilities </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for entertainment--movies and all--it was just built newer. And so even though my dad didn't serve in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he service, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he had a lot of friends that had been in the service, and so we could go to movies</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> up there. And they had outside </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entertainment tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t came in that you could go to. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We never did live out at Hanford or anything like that. My ex-father-in-law actuall</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y came here and he lived out at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Hanford for a while.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So you said your family then moved away in 1950, and then came back in 1960? Your father came back?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Yeah, about ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> years later he came back. I'm not too--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Did you come back at that point also?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, I was in college, so I came up here after I graduated in '61 and went into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey still had the draft at that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">time</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">so I volunteered for the Navy, and ended up flunking a hearing test and flight</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> school. So I got washed out of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">flight training. And Vietnam hadn't started to build up yet so they weren't desperate fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r pilots. So after I got out of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Navy, I came back up here and stayed f</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or a short while and got a job. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I had a mining</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, engineering and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> geology degree, so I got a job in Colorado in a mol</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ybdenum mine, and worked there </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for a couple of years, and decided to go back to college </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and get a degree in metallurgy. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so I went to WSU and graduated from there in '65, went down to Kaiser Steel</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> in California. By then, my dad </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had moved from working for the contractor into working for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the AEC. Now, I'm not too sure—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'m sure he just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably just wanted me and my wife and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">their grandkids closer to them—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t anyway, he told the people in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">personnel that I had a metallurgy degree. And one day I got a call from Wanda </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Co</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">tner</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, that was the branch chief </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">over the personnel hiring, and she asked me i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f I'd come up for an interview. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And she said that she could give me a nice raise if I'd think about joining the A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">EC. So I ended up accepting the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">offer. And when I got my Q Clearance, I moved up here in July of '67, and worked for DOE as an individual</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> contributor over PNLs. It was a Hanford lab. PN</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">L, I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> had taken over by then. They had a number of very</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">important metallurgical programs on understanding how plutonium reacted, especially in the reactor with neutrons</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hitting it all the time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So I advanced very </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nicely. And by the early '80s, I was assistant manager for--it was then ERDA or AEC--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for all </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the compliance programs at Hanford--that'd be safety, and QA, and environmental, and security--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">so all the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ompliance structure at Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Then, probably, in about '84, I guess, I moved me over and I was assistant manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for all the nuclear operations at Hanford. So I had the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rea for the fuel fab for N Reactor. And we still </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had N Reactor running. And FFTF </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was starting up, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">we had PUREX running and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> T Canyon. I probably had a billion dollar budget ba</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ck in the '80s just for all the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nucle</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ar operations here at the site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So we did the first comprehensive EIS that was ever done in the Department of Energ</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y for the tank farms, built the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">last double shell tanks that were ever built.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd how long did you work at--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I worked for about 20 years for DOE, and the AEC, and then I took an early retireme</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nt in, must've been like 1988. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So it must have bee</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n about 21 years I worked here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So I left Hanford and went over to Idaho Falls and was as a manager over their cap</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ital construction projects. And then I got transferred to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Rocky Flats. After the FBI and EPA had shut down Rocky Flats</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, the Department of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Energy terminated the contract with the contractor. And actually they didn't even c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ompete the contract. They just, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">literally, gave it to EG&G, which is almost unheard of, to not compete a major con</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tract. So I was in charge of—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey had shut down Rocky </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Flats operations. And so when EG&G came in, our charter was to restart the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant. And so I was the project </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">manager over restarting the pluto</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nium operations at Rocky Flats. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I got promoted up to being assistant general manager over environmental remediation. And th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">en I got a call from </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Lockheed down in Houston and they were trying to break into the DOE busin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ess. And so they hired about 20 </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">experienced people that had worked in and outside of DOE to put together propos</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">als to run these big contracts, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">whether it be Oak Ridge, or Rocky Flats,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> or Idaho, or Nevada Test Site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so then I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> work</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for Lockheed and it then became Lockheed Martin. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I worked for Lockheed from like </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'93 to '96, and I was a general manager of one of their environmental remediation divisions.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> And I transferred </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">back up here, which was probably about the sixth or seventh time I've been throu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">gh this town. But when Lockheed </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Martin and Fluor won the Westinghouse contract in '96, I got transferred back to Ri</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">chland. So I'd made a circuitous loop that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had gone from Richland to Idaho Falls to Rocky Flats outside of Denver, down to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Houston, the Nevada Test Site, and the back up to Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But I ended up, after I retired from Lockheed Martin, I went to work for a small b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">usiness here</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ATL International. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They currently run the 222-S Laboratory. I was a vice president for them over all th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eir Hanford work. Eventually, I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">just decided to go out on my own. So I consulted from</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> about 2004 to the end of 2011. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And by then, I looked around and all my contacts had either died or moved to Ar</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">izona or Florida. Even today, I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably don't know two human beings that are still working for a living. But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">his place has been--and DOE has been—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">absolutely a blessing to me.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I want to go back. So your family left in 1950. Then you came back in '67</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> roughly?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No, I came back in '61.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Right.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Just for a short period of time. Just long enough to enlist in the Navy. And then w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hen I got ready to start flight </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school, I took a hearing test. And believe it or not, the physical requirements for all branches of service are the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">same. It's just that they check people that are going to be in the Air Force or in the Navy, they just check certain</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">things closer than they do if you want to be a marine. And so I was just borderline acceptable in the hearing. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">since they had an abundance of pilots and the Vietnam </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">War hadn't escalated or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">not, they ended up giving me an </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">honorable discharge and reclassifying me as 1-Y, which is, it has to be a national e</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mergency to call you back up. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">came home and then went to Colorado and went to work in the mine.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When you came back here for the job working at Hanford, I was wonderi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng, what ways had the community </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">changed since you were here as a child going to school?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You know what, to me</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at a macroscopic view of the Tri-Cities, the biggest thing </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's changed is the number of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">people. Richland is still uptown and downtown. Kennewick is striving to open up th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at area between the two bridges </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">along the river. But the biggest thing is now there are probably three times as many people. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">There was probably </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">90,000 people between the three towns early in the '50s. And now there's probably</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> a quarter of a million people. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so the biggest changes is that the roads and streets haven't been modernized--or the stoplights--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to handle </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">triple the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">traffic. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But the wine industry obviously is a major thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because when I was a kid growi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng up here—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> they talk about </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">termination dust storms, they were not kidding</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because I lived in eastern Co</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">lorado and my parents had lived </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">through the Dust Bowl, and I knew what dust storms looked like. And when they hit Richland, your house</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—I remember my mother, she—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when they vacuum--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">you've</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> just</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> got</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> sweep broom and a w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ood floor, and your sweeping it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up, and throwing it in the yard with a dust pan. But the irrigation c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hanged all that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">There's just so much more moisture going up in the air that the dust storms a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">re few and far between. And the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">humidity has gone from like 10% or 15% probably to 35%. And the summers h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ave gotten less extreme. When I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was a kid, it was not unusual at all for July--from the first of July to the end of July--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to be 110 to 115 degrees. I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">seen it 117 degrees here. And now, just look at this last summer, we had a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">few days of 101 or 103. But the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">climate has </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mellowed out with the extremes. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Like in '48, the Columbia River froze clear across from side to side. You could dr</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ive a truck across it. The same </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">year as the big flood. So the ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tremes have gone away. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">instead of the re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">al dips and curves a sinusoidal </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">curve, it's more shallow extremes. But the fact that they now have Meadow Spring</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s, and they have Clipper Ridge, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and West Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of cour</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">se, has expanded from a nothing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When I was a kid there was just basically a few people that liked to have farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">land lived out there. There was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably as many people living in Yakima as there was in Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they couldn't build houses fast </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">enough. And those that work</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed in the 100 Areas or the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reas, it was just as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">close to come in from Yakima as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it was to drive from Richland.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You talk about a number memories from your childhood, are there any othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r things, events, or particular </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">memories that really stand out from those early years in Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You had to make your entertainment. And you had to wait in line for everything, inclu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ding getting a car. Jeez, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">must have been '48 before we got a car. And in the Sunday paper there was an</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ad that said, call a number in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Seattle, and get on a list for a Buick. And so my mother did that. And about six mont</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hs later we got a call and said </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">co</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">me pick up your car. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We got on a train over in Pasco that just had wood benches in it, and we went over</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Snoqualmie to Seattle, and got </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this new '48 Buick, and drove it home over Snoqualmie Pass. People from all ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r the neighborhood were kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ogling this car because anybody else that had a car basically were driving som</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e pre-1940 model, because during </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the '40s they didn't make cars. But that was a vast improvement for us to hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e our own wheels. But self-made entertainment. When we lived up on McMurray—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of course, all these guys that came here from the '30s and '40s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> all the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entertainment they had as they grew up as kids was self-made also. So playing pool was a big activity. And so my</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dad bought a pool table over in Pasco, and we had it in the basement. And on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the weekend, he and all of his </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">buddies iced down beer and played </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">kelly</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> pool all afternoon, that was the enterta</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">inment. And probably that night </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">those same guys, with their wives, had a little potluck at somebody's house and played Bridge. My parents pla</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">yed bridge </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all the time.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I wanted to ask you, then, also about your working at Hanford. Hanford for so </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">long focused on production. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mentioned that production, production. At some point, of course, it shifted to cl</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eanup. I wondered if that shift </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">impacted your work at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, by the time I left Hanford it was still in a reduced production mode. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he writing was on the wall that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">environmental restoration was the future of Hanford, not production. We fought </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to keep N Reactor going because </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it was dual purpose. But especially when they passed the RCRA, or Resource </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Conservation Recovery Act, that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the first major commitment by the US Government for an environmental cleanup</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. And they sent that law, or bill, out to all </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the field offices and asked for the field offices to comment on what effect it woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d have on their operations. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Dixy Lee Ray wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s the commissioner at the time. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And I must've been a director of safety at the time. So we got together with the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contractors and we labored over </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this. And fortunately, I have a knack of being able to synthesize complicated things</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> into a very concise statement. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And when we got through </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">viewing this, I wrote a letter for the manager of the fiel</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d office. And it was about this </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">long, and it simply said, this will shut down nuclear pit production fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r the United States of America. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And from that point on it was one lawsuit after another as Congress tried to extend it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s will on the defense industry. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But at the time, like when I was a Rocky Flats, the reason they were so anxious to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">restart that plant that was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">only </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant in all of DOE complex that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> didn't have two--like there was Hanford an</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d Savannah River, there was Los </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Alamos and Livermore Design Lab. So there was a duality in everything. But when they remo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ved the pit </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">production from Hanford, instead having pit production at Savannah River and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Hanford both, they built a new </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant at Rocky Flats. And it was the only plant that made pit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. And so it was a choke point. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And when the FBI and EPA shut that plant down, basically, we had nuclear subs </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that were out in the ocean with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">20 missiles and there was no spear point on the end of the spear. They were</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> not loaded because we were not </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">making pit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So that was why the defense industry was fighting with Congress on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> environmental cleanup was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because we were not in a good defensible position nuclear-wise during th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at Cold War years if we had the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">boomers out in the ocean that didn't have a num</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ber of warheads on top of them. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And that's why EG&G got the contract because DOE believed that they could res</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tart the plant and start making </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">these pits. So even though the environmental law was saying you should be sh</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ifting quickly to environmental </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">restoration at Rocky Flats, the headquarters people over defense programs were tellin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">g you under the table, get </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this plant running. We need these pits for the defense of America. So it was real</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> catch-22 for the management of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Rocky Flats plant. But eventually, it became obvious that they were never go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing to restart the plant and so </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">everybody shifted into a full environmental restoration mode.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">During your years working here at Hanford, what would you consider some of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the more challenging aspects of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your job, the work you were doing here, and maybe some of the most rewarding aspects of you</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r work? </span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, you know--[SIGH] I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, rewarding</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> is a hard thing to define beca</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">use that was one of the primary </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reasons I took early retirement. Let me just use Yucca Mountain as an example. When I hired into the AEC in '67,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the United States Government was looking for a repository for nuclear fuel in Lyons, Kansas. So that was '67, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">here we are, 2013, and we're no closer to solving that national </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">problem today </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">than we were 40 years ago. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the satisfaction that comes with mission accomplished was al</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ways very difficult to achieve.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was more of a case of frustration on my part that the grass looks greener on th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e other side of the fence. If I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was going to go any higher in DOE, I would have to go to Washington, DC</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause I was already an S</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ES and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's as high as you could go witho</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut a congressional appointment. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But the most challenging thing was that when Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> came in to be t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he manager of DOE, he brought a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">complete new, fresh environmental sensitive outlook to the plant. And so trying to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> deal with the public interface over leaking tanks—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">106</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">T was a big bump in my career. I went from a nob</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ody to a branch chief just with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">one tank leak. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">[LAUGHTER] But</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> he w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">as very environmental conscious</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">very safety conscious. And so he </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ratcheted the whole system up, not just o</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ne notch, but numerous notches. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Because when they built the nuclear industry, they did not have safety standards for the nuclear industry</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause it was a brand new industry.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> So if you looked at the operation of the uranium </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">side, then they used the safety </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">standards of a steel mill and a blast furnace to do the safety standards for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Fernald and these other uranium </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">enrichment places. And if you look at the chemical processing in the canyon</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s, they looked to the petroleum </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">cracking industry for safety standards. And if you look to the waste disposal, whic</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">h was the operation of the tank </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">farms and the burial grounds, it had the same basic safety standards and the int</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">erest as a commercial landfill. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so it wasn't until the nuclear Navy was born and Rickover installed a complet</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ely different safety philosophy </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because he was going to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have 200, or 300, or 400 sailor—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">lives were dependent on everything </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">functioning perfectly. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was bright enough and young enough to recognize that. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d he brought that standard into Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So there was just a real crash program on upgrading the operational procedures</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for tank farms and other waste </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">disposals. Skin </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contaminations were accepted as—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">like a guy working on your ca</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r, he accepts the fact that his hands are going to get greasy. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut Alex didn't accept that. He said, you know, we'r</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e going to have zero accidents. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And we're going to have zero skin contaminations. We're going to be open with t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he public on any of these tank leaks. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And the problem was we didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> really</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the skill to measure how these tanks w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere doing—whether we're losing </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">material or not losing material. And even though you could measure the depth,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the interest of whether it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">unacceptable to leak</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was not there. And the reason for that was that when the fi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rst tanks were built, they were built in 12. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So there's four rows of three</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and the separation process was simply a settling proces</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. So the waste would come </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">into the first tank</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and fill up, and the solids would drift to the bottom. And then it'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> overflow into the second tank, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">another lighter batch of solids. And then it would flow into the third tank, and more solids would fall </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out. Then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it would flow into the ground. And so if you're pu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tting stuff in the ground for ten or 15 years, and using nine </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">exchange properties of the soil to capture the radionuclides</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> then what's the big dea</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">l about a tank leaking a little extra waste?</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> You've already put a billion gallons of stuff into the soil, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">what's another 100,000 gallons? </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So that was the mentality that Alex faced with the contractors when he came to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Hanford. I give him credit. He </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">single-handedly changed that. And he took on the challenge to do the very first</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> environmental impact statement </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">on tank waste for the whole agency. He was the guinea pig. He was the front runner</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, or the blazer, for the DOE on environmental issues. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so I honestly think that Hanford, even though</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because of the design of the plan</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ts</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> there was no way to retrofit </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">these plants to not discharge stuff to the soil, but there was a way to monitor it b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">etter and be more acutely aware </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of occurrence</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s that you didn't want to occur. W</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hether it was stuff leaking on th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e ground on top of the tank, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">whether it was stuff leaking into the ground through the bottom of the tank.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So what time period are you talking about here?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">This would have been in late '70s up to, probably, '87. And Mike Lawrence came in '87.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And it's Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yes, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">How do you spell the last name?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">F-R-E-M-L-I-N-G.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So that's when you noticed a shift definitely</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> taking place</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No question. I was a student of, that instead of resisting these changes, I e</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mbraced these changes and I was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rewarded for that. But th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e mentality of the DOE—or</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> it was ERDA at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> time, but the mentality of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">workers in ERDA were no different than the mentality in the contractors. I mean, we'</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d been doing it this way for 30 years, why are we changing? H</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e conducted the first operational readiness re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">view probably in the nation for start</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up nuclear facilities.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">How were you able to change that mentality I guess into the--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You know what, I'd say, probably, through the award-fee process. It's through the money. When I first go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t here, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contractors had contracts, but there was never any real evaluation of whether th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ey deserved their fee or didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">deserve their fee. So once we instituted an award-fee process in which we itemi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">zed the areas for improvement, then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">quantified A,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">B,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">C or D or F, you could then quantify. If they had $10 million fee that's u</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">p for grabs for this quarter or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this six month period, you could quantify how well they did to meet those goal</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t was very intense and it was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">steep learning curve, but it produced results. And we changed contractors</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> too.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hmm, right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So this was when you would have been in charge of compliance programs?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">First, yeah. After I was a branch chief, I was an assistant division director. Basically </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all of my career was in nuclear </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">operations, especially with the tank farms. And even though I moved over to be the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">director of safety, and then on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to be the system manager for compliance, you were just viewing operations from</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> an independent standpoint. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">didn't direct nuclear operations, but you did appraisals, and you did audits, and yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">u did oversight, and you graded </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">a contractor on his performance independent from operations.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Was it during your time</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> there, I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at some point of course there were a lo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t of questions raised about the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tanks. And in term</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of the public</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> questions about tanks leaking and that sort of thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. Did you have to deal with any </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of that sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Listen,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I spent—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f I wasn't making presentations to the public or defending our actions to the public, I was doing so in fro</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nt </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of Congress. There was constant barrage and it was difficult to commu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nicate because by this time the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">environmental support groups were springing up to put </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">pressure on DOE to perform and to clean up and to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">accelerate. And, of course, you control certain things, but you don't control your</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> budget. Congress controls your </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">budget. And so it was difficult a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t best, and it was contentious. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">It's constantly contentious because it was like I was speaking in English and t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey were listening in Greek. We </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">couldn't communicate</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because they were just totally upset with what the gove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rnment had done to end the war. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They forg</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ot that what </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the end result</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was stop the war and save millions of lives in the invasion of Japan. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they had forgotten that. And it was just on the bad things that have been done to the environment. And I'd be the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first to agree to that--I don't think that in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hindsight</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f you went back and re-ran it ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ti</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mes in hindsight, I don't think </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">anything would have changed</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause the same pressure to beat the Germ</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ans to the nuclear bomb and the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">same pressure to end the war in the Pacific would not change. And so you'd only</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> have the capability to do what </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your technology was advanced enough to do at that time and place.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I wonder if there's anything that you haven't talked about, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r I haven't asked about yet, either in terms of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your years growing up here as a young child, or your father</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'s work, or your work at Hanford, that you'd like to talk </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">about, or think it would be important to talk about.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I would just simply say that I think that the people and the contractors in the gove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rnment, as well as contractors, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have always given 100% to do the right thing. And they don't get much praise. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd they are constantly vilified </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because they're missing milestones and stuff like that. But there is just some ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tremely technically challenging </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">work to be done out there. It's been a flywheel for this site since 1943, and it's go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing to continue out probably to 2075. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But they'll never clean the site up, and they'll never walk away from it. They'll h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ave some 25-square-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mile pad out </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">there that has all kinds of markings on it, don't drill here. But they're making tremen</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dous strides in cleaning up the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">groundwater and removing the stuff along the river. I never dreamed in my wilde</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">st dreams that they could clean </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up all the burial grounds and trenches alo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng the river and the buildings. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Each one of those reactors had the facilities enough to run a small city, and now all that's </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">left is a cube. You could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">paint dots on it or something like rolling dice across the prairie. But I just thin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">k it's been remarkable how much </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they've cleaned up and how safely they've done it. You don't ever read of anybo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dy getting killed out there, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">maimed out there, and they're still using a lot of heavy equipment. The safety s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tandards are extremely high and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">’</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s part of the reward, the carrot in front of the donkey. If you're safe and have a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">good safety record and you make </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">progress, you get your fee.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> want to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> thank you very much</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: --</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for coming and talking to us today and sharing y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">our memories and experiences. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Great, thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:09:30
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
180 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
100 Area
Z Plant
N Reactor
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Fast Flux Test Facility
B Reactor
234-5 Building
222-S Laboratory
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1967-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1967-1988
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Rhoades, Paul
Cotner, Wanda
Ray, Dixy
Lawrence, Mike
Fremling, Alex
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Rhoades
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Jack Rhoades conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/16/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
222-S Laboratory
234-5 building
300 Area
B Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.
Kennewick (Wash.)
N Reactor
Pasco (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX
Richland (Wash.)
Z Plant
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e70e5f6902f36a8dce5b5ec4f9229c3.jpg
2299143b7462e91e44a8263168c065d0
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F668060df69888e4182ac2a6dd4aa0020.mp4
1c1a7cedc234e0082608686d3d8c0ae2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samuel Moore
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Moore_Samuel</span></span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: My name is Robert Bauman, and I am conducting an oral history interview with Samuel Moore, correct?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Samuel Moore</span>: Right, Samuel--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: This date is July 9, 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Moore about his experiences working at Hanford site, living in Richland and so forth. So maybe let's start actually from the beginning, if you want, could you tell me how and why you came to Hanford, how you heard about it, how you got here?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Okay, I'm going to tell you how I got here. My father was working at a cook in the mental section of Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. And he came home, and he says, there's a better job at Hanford, Washington. So he left and came out. Then he told them that I can't be here without my family. So they put us on, I think it was a troop train, and it stopped in Pasco and set us off.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Could you--where is Camp Chaffee, Arkansas?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It's</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> east of Ft. Smith and that, so.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And how old were you at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: About eight. And then we come in--put us off of this I'll call it a troop train, because there was a zillion soldiers on it. And it picks up and they took us to Kennewick to a place called Naval Housing. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that's where they put the people coming in for Hanford workers to stay until a house was available. And we stayed there, and then from there we moved to this nice little square building which had a flat top, set up on stilts. And it was called a prefab at 1300 Totten Street. And that means that we lived at the end house. The telephones were on the telephone poles at the end of the block. So when the phone would ring you were told to answer the phone and go get whoever it wanted who. So that's the way we started in Richland. And we lived there for I don't know how long. And then we moved to different houses around Richland until I graduated from Columbia High School, which was Columbia High School in Richland at that time. Now it's Richland High. And then after that I did a short job with a construction company. And then I went to work for General Electric, running one of their blueprint machines when they were ge</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tting ready to build the REDOX Building and the PUREX B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding. So I'd go, I was the first one in to warm up the machines and run them for </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a while. And then after while I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">got </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">uplined</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> and I could deliver those suckers out into the area. So that was my starting with General Electric then.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, so let me go back a little bit. So what year did your family arrive then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">19--it was either 1943 or '44.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. And your father, was he a cook here also?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No, no. He'd come out and he was a, as we call them today, rent-a-cop. He wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s a patrolman out there. And he worked as a patrolman ‘ti</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">l he retired.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And you said that your first job was with General Electric, and what year would that have been?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">About 1953 or 4. Then I went from there, like I say I was in the blueprint sections</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> and all that. And then I had a job—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I got a chance to become an engineer's assistant. And then when they were g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">oing out and building different </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">things</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> so that helped me get into the other sections</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> of General Electric and so on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And when that one cut, I transferred into radiation monitoring. And that was when</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> they had the Hanford labs, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the old animal</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> farm was at</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> 100 F A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. So I worked in that group until--I f</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">orget what year it was. I'm not </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">good on years and dates. But when they decided they were going to re-tube all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">those reactors out there in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hundred areas and so they could put bigger slugs in them and all that stuff, I worke</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d on that until about 1957. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they said, guess what? We're not going to pay you anymore. So I left</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But I stayed with the government job. I went to the Nevada test site and blew all </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the plutonium up that they made </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">out here. So then I came back to Hanford in 1960. So then I was still in radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">monitoring and worked all kinds </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of different places, tank farms and everywhere else out there that I could think about.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So it sounds like you worked all over the Hanford site.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All over the Hanford site, that's right, yes, everywhere. And I worked a lot of the tim</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es at the burial grounds in 200 </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">est</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea. When they would tak</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">big wooden boxes to PUREX and RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">DOX </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ey'd fill them. And then they'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">pull them up, and they'd put a big long cable on the whole string of cars, and that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">box was way down that string of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">cars. And then when they get up to the burial ground, the train and it would coordinat</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e, and they'd pull it back. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">as the cable would come around, and when the box got to the trench, the train would stop. And they'd just spin it</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">around and down in a trench. And then we get the honor of riding the bulldozers to set those freights so they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">could cover them up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">That was one of the deals. And the other times I worked in a lot of the tank farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s and pulling </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">pumps and putting </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">new bearings in those pumps and all that kind of stuff. It was an experience, believe me.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, I'm sure it was. So a lot of this was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> with</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> radiation monitoring?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: It was r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">adiation monitoring. And I was in radiation monitoring until 1980-something. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">had a little problem out there, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and they wanted me to release some stuff. And I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, uh-uh, not me, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">ain't</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> mine. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So they said, well we've got this other section over here that you should be in, so I g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ot into the safety part </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">with respiratory protection. And I was trained to repair the breathing air things, like the firemen use</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. I was trained </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to do that, fix the PAPRs, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> escape packs, and all that stuff so. And check over places for where they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—oxygen </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">levels to where they could go in and work and all that, so that was my last eig</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ht years of Hanford, was in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">respiratory section I'll call it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so when did you retire then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">In 1994.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So almost 40 years minus the years that you were with--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, yeah. Well as the way I said, when I came back to Hanford in 1960, they tol</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d me it was a temporary job, it would probably only last six, eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> months. Well, I found out that at Hanford a temporary j</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ob is pretty permanent. It only </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">lasted 33 and 1/2 years. It's a temporary job there, so I guess at all turned out pretty good.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I guess you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> consider that temporary.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Temporary, yeah. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So many interesting things that you've worked on. So let's go back to the early yea</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rs. First, in the 1950s and you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">talked about radiation monitoring, something with radiation, you did blueprin</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t and stuff, but then radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">monitoring?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then radiation monitoring, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, and some of that was with animals? Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I went into the animal farm on some certain times, but I wasn't assigned th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ere for anything. The big one I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was assigned to was what they called the 558 project, which is when they re-tubed al</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">l of the old reactors. And that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was, you'd go in and set dose rates for all the people when they're</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> working. And so it was a deal. </span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And now Hanford, of course, is a highly secure site, right, lots of security, secrecy to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> a certain extent. Can you talk </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">about that at all? I mean, in terms of getting to work or at work, how did that impact you?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Most of the places where I was, the secure part of it wasn't that strict. But other p</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">laces like, some of those </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">buildings, yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> they were really a strict situation. And when I go back a ways, when my dad and we lived in this</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">call it the slum house on Totten Street--nobody knew what was happening. Nobody knew. I didn't know what the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">guy next door was doing, and they didn't know what my dad did. Until I think it was 1944 or '45 when they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">announced what they were really doing here. And it was kind of a </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">shock, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> deal, so. That was my deals of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">secrecy out there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Now, did you have to have special security clearance?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yes, yes, I did. I had special clearances, yes. I had everything but the very to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p secret one. And that was real </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">handy because when I left here, I went to the Nevada test site. I had to use the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> same secret pass. And then the same thing when I come back. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It was very, very--what am I trying to say here? I mean, I'm an old guy. I'm just abo</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ut at the end of the road here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Most of my work, like I say, was the tank farms, and those places, where secrecy was not involved in that. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was like times when you'd have a spill, you dig it up and prepare it to the burial gro</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">und. A lot of that was the work </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that we did.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And you said your first job was at General Electric. Obviously, there are different contractors.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Now, who all did you work for over the years?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, we went to General Electric. Then it went to there was one called Isochem</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Ro</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ckwell, oh there's a whole slug </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of them, I can't remember all of them. So it seemed like every time you'd turn a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">round, they were turned over to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">somebody new. But it was Westinghouse when I decided I would better leave before I had a real problem.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So can you talk about what was happening there toward the end that made you want to leave?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I was, like I say, I was working on the PAPRs and all that kind of stuff. It got t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">o be a real drag, you know. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ev</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">erybody was doing that then. It</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> got to the point where every time you tur</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> around, everybody was wanting </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">this, and wanting this, and wanting this. You're only one person. And I was a guy that did </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">most all the fixing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So I decided--to my wife, I said--I call her the voice from the other side. She said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> what's the matter? And I says, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">well, before I mess up on one of these pieces of equipment and kill somebody, I th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ink I better retire. So we just decided, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And she worked for the Hanford P</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">roject</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> too</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd of course she was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">much better off than I was. She </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked for one of t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">he big managers as a secretary. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So we just decided that was it. And we had our</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> nest eggs saved up and said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, it's retired an</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d we're going to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">see the world. And we did that until my one eye decides to go bad. Then we ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d to stop. Other than that, I'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">probably been in who knows where.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: While you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re working at Hanford were there any significant events, or sort of, things that have </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">happened that sort </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of stand out in your mind specifically?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Yeah, and I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> tryin</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">g to think. It was about 1962, g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">raveyard shift, 233-</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">S, it caught on</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> fire and it burned. And it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a big mess. That's where I wound up with my shot of plutonium in my bones, as I'</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ll say, from that fire. And, of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">course, back in those days you didn't know what was what, so they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked on it and cleaned it up. And but t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">here's a couple of contamination things that sticks out in my mind. One </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of them is, we used to bury the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">material from 300</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea which is, I guess you would c</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">all a Westinghouse, Battelle or somebody. And we used to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">dump them into caissons in the backside of the 234</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">5 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea. And we had one of those that kind of brok</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e open and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">messed us up a little bit. Took</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> us maybe six</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, hours to get cleaned up so we we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re able to go on our merry way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But those are the only two that really stick out in my mind.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Did you miss any amount of work as a result the exposures when you had those?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Nope. Nope. They just cleaned you up and said go back to work. You all have</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> to remember that back in those </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">days</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> all of the things that happened in a lot of places</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> we didn't know. We didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">know what the repercussions was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">going to be. We didn't know that. Now, this is why we're paying for a lot of stuff r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ight now is because we didn't know how to do all that stuff. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But like I say, there's a lot more people that know a lot more about that Hanford stu</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ff than I do. Like I said, it's </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">been many a year since I worked some of those places, too, that I can't remember some of the stuff.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Sure, sure. The radiation monitoring group, how large of a group was that</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">? And how many employees do you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">know, have an idea who worked--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was probably about 60 or better. But each company, I think, had a group of their own. The 2</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">00 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">reas had </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">one big group. The 100 Areas had a group. And then 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea had a group, so </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you put them all together there </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was probably more than 60-some.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay, and just to—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you said there was a fire in, you think about, 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">62. Was it the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Yep, in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, down behind the RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">DOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding. That just, poof, was it and it w</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ent, so. And I think the reason </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they had the fire was because somebody had some greasy coveralls and stuff a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd didn't take care of them the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">proper way, and the first thing you know, poof, they were on fire.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And this was where there was radioactive material?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, it was back in the radioactive area, so everything got messed up.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And at the time you probably didn't know necessarily everything, but you've had some health problems </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">since </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I won't say that my health problem is caused by </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the contamination that I had or was dumped</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> with. I've had quite a few of those. I've had a melanoma cance</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">r in this ear, and I had a very </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">large contamination that got in that ear and area. So I've had to have some surg</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ery done there, skin grafts and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that kind of stuff. But so far it hasn't slowed me up.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. Were you working here in 1963 then when President Kennedy came to?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And do you remember at all? Were you there that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No. Well, I was on a project that day, but I was not out where he was. I was one </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of the, I guess how would I say </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">this, the lower steel, so I took care of the work over while everybody went to tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t. But yeah, I was here. I came </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">back from Nevada on September 13, 1960, and I worked till '94.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then I wanted to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">sk you a little about Richland. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So other than when you first got here, it sounds like you lived in Richland most of the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">How would you describe Richland as a community at the time, as a place to live?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It was very good</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> because at that time, when you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re there, you didn't even have </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to worry about locking doors. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">mean, everybody was—it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">just one big thing. It was a government town and every</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">thing would deal like that. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nobody really did</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">didn't have the vandalism or anything like that around town. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d as you probably know that, if </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you're familiar with Fred M</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">yer</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">’s on</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Wellsian </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Way down there, that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> a swamp deal, because that was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">where Ric</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hland got their drinking water. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Like I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I lived in 1303 Totten the very first time and then we move</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d from there down to on Benham Street. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I don't know how to say this, other than the way I normally say that, but that was down where we call</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ed the turd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">churn. That was the sewage plant down there. Then from </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there I moved back up to Swift. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then in--I was trying to think when it was, 1963 or so, they did away with the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> old irrigation ditch that came </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">through Richland and goes underneath Carmichael, because that's where they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> flooded the cattail place down </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there for the drinking water in Richland, and l</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">et it seep down and pump it up. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And they busted everything up and back about then I was reading the Villager, I th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ink it was, the Tri-City paper, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e was a lot for sale on Totten S</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">treet. So I bought it and went out and looked a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t it. It was the old irrigation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ditch. And I built a house over the old irrigation ditch, and I still live there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And you—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">when you first arrived you were a child.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">What was it like going to school? I'm assuming that there were people from sort of all over</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All over. Yeah. And you just walk to school. And it was, like I say, there was no bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ses or anything, you could walk </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to school. And everybody just seemed to fit right in</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> you know. Nobody ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d any qualms whether I was from Arkansas or anywhere else. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But like I say when the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">first house there in Richland, Wr</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ight Avenue was the last </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">street in town. And beyond that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was one of the most fabulous cherry orchards that there was. And when you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re a kid you'd slip over in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">cherry orchard and get cherries and take them home to your mother. And she co</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uld make you some jams, jellies, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">whatever pie, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">or whatever. But it was a deal. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was quite a group of kids that came from all over the country. And they just</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> seemed to fit in, none of this </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">gang thing or anything like that. They were just, everybody was all buddy-buddy, you know?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You me</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ntioned you went to, what was then </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Columbia High School.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">How about elementary and middle school?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And in elementary school when we moved the one that I really remember was Le</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">wis and Clark down on the south </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">end of town. And I went ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e until one of the,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I'll call them students decided to burn </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">it down. And they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">burnt Lewis and Clark down. And so a lot of us were told to go up to Marcus Whi</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tman and finish off the year up there. So we did that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then them from there on Carm</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ichael, the junior high, was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">being built and I think they opened it u</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p at about </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a mid-year. And I was one of the ones I went there the mid-year into Carmichael a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd then over to the high school </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">after that.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so what year was that the Lewis and Clark burned down? Was that like in the late '40s then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah. But the funny part of it is, not too many years ago they arrested a fell</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ow down in Portland. And he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">laughing about burning the building down. So I guess they couldn't do anything</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> to him, but they found out who burned it down now. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah. Well, there was Lewis and Clark, Marcus Whitman, Sacajawea which wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s right there by Central United </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Protestant Church was the old Sacajawea school. And then there's Jefferson which i</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s still going. And our fabulous </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">people are trying to shut it down, move it, and do something else with it. But w</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ho knows what's going to happen</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Do you remember when you were growing up and going to school and living </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">here at that time any community </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">events, parades?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Oh, yeah!</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Atomic Frontier Days was a big—the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> big, big thing. I have breakfas</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t with a group of Columbia High </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">graduates and I can't remember what her name is, but she was one of them th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">at used to run for the Queen of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Frontier Days. And there was a couple othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rs. But that was the big thing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they used to take—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Howard</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Amon </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Park turned into booths</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, and just like a big fair down </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there. So it was things, and then all a sudden they decided to move everything around to the Tri-Cities.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And was that in the summer?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, that was always in the summer, you know. And then the big hydroplane rac</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es, they would come in, but they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">were the old ones that had the 1</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">2</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">00</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> or 1,300 horse-powered gasoline engines in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hem, the noise makers. But that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">about the extent of the things. And if we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> go back I can remember the floods came through and when they b</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uild all the dikes that they're </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tearing down now. But I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> think they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> got to worry about that, being as the dams are still functioning.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Do you remember some of the floods?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Oh yeah, I can remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the flood deals, when they built the road up to going </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to the Y. They had to build all </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">up because you didn't get to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Kennewick when the flood was on. Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, it was right up to the George Washington Way r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">oad there by wherever the guy that has the petrified stumps down there. The water was j</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ust </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">across the street from his house, was right up to the edge there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I want to go back now to H</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">anford itself and your work experienc</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es there. You talked about some </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">specific things you did and some specific things. How would you describe</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Hanford as a </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Hanford was a real good place to work. It was really good work, and good place </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to work. Mainly I think because </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you didn't know everything that was going on. So you knew that you had your se</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ction, what you were doing, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you didn't want to make waves or something like that. But to me, Ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nford was a good place to work. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was a lot of--I had a lot of good friends that came up through the, I call th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">em the ranks. They were, like I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked in the blueprint and there was guys that drove the mail trucks. We wound up</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> as a real knit group of people </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. They work out of the old 703 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding, which part of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> still there. And we used to have Cok</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e breaks and go </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">back there. And everybody put a quarter in the pot and then get your Coke </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">bottle. When it was all through </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">whoever had the bottle that was from farthest away got the kitty. So it was a good place to work</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> really.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And I guess is there anything you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford site?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I would like everybody to know that where this country really screwed u</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p was when we dropped that bomb </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and blew up everything. We kept everything too secret. They should have let e</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">verybody know what that was and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what was happening. Today we would have had a better deal of doing what they're </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">doing today if they'd done that, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I think. Now that's my opinion and no one else's, but if they would have just let t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hem know what was going on, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what happened, it would have been a lot better.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then is there anything that I haven't asked you about in terms of either your </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">job at Hanford—or jobs, I should </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">say</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Or living in Richland? That I haven't asked you about, that you'd like to talk about?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No. Like I say, Richland was a good place to live, though, and Hanford was a goo</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d place to work. I mean you did </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">your job, and everybody else did theirs, and everything worked out just fine. There's a lot of th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ings that I'm not too </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">sure of what happened. But a lot of those places they did have things when they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> were doing experiments for the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Navy and all kind of stuff out there. But I didn't get in on any of that stuff at all. It was one of those deals, you go in</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and you dress out, and most the time the monitors were </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the first ones and the last ones out. So that was the deal.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">When you did that, did you wear a badge?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, TLD, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rmoluminescent dosimeter. So y</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ou always had a badge on. I understan</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">some of the guys used to take theirs and set them aside so they wouldn't get too m</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uch radiation, so they would be </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">eligible for overtime. But I wasn't into that overtime route.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so how would you know? How did it register that you had too much exposure?</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> How was that read?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well they put it into a meter that would read what the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">thermo</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> was. And the original ones were--</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what am I trying to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">say? Film, there was a film. And they would read the film of what, how much had b</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">een exposed to that. And that's how they got your </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">dose rates there, how much you took.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And did that change at some point to some other method?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, they used the film badges to start with. Then they flipped over and they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">found out they could use these, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what did</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I call them, thermoluminescent</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> detectors, which is you put at charge on </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">them. And I guess the radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">would discharge</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the charge. So they'll know how much was used off of it. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d then you had pencils that you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">read, that would tell you, that would read if you were supposed to take, let's say, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">50 MR. Well you'd set that when </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you come out, you'd be there and there was always time keepers. There was a tim</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e keeper in that group that was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">taking how much your exposure was, and how long you had been there, and calcul</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ating it to when you should get your</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">self out.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And they would let you know that?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then they'd tap you on the shoulder and say, go. So then they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">’d</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> go out. And then there would be somebody out</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there that would get them undressed and check them, clean them, and make sure they were all, no contamination</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">on them and either send them to lunch or home.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And that sort of procedure--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">That procedure.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">--throughout the time--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Throughout the whole time I was there, yeah. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All right. Well thank you ver</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">y much. I really appreciate</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> you</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> being willing to c</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ome in and talk to us. And very </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">interesting--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, like to say, there's things out there that my mind just doesn't pick up on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">m right now. So probably middle </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of the night at one o'clock, I'll wake up and say, golly, I should have told him this. But n</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">o, that's the deal. But really, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Hanford was a good place to work and to me, it's been real good to me. I got a good retirement off of it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All right. Well, thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You bet.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You bet. And seeing now that he's got the shut off</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I'll tell you about my week. I took</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> my motor home and went to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Ilwaco</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. You know where </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Ilwaco</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> is on the Columbia River?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: Yeah, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">On the way over there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:35:10
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
250kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
703 Building
100 F Area
200 West Area
300 Area
234-5 Area
200 Area
100 Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1953-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1953-1994
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Samuel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Samuel Moore conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/9/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
100 Area
100 F Area
200 Area
200 West Area
234-5 Area
300 Area
703 Building
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)