25 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7cdd451142dd9f622f5c837ada20a9c4.jpg a4060b1a6fca2a979e32fdb5b98d483b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Letter from Oregon Governor, Theodore R. Kulongoski Description An account of the resource Requesting Wanda Munn to convience with the CSEPP Executive Review Panel to assess the status of emergency response programs in communities surrounding the Umatilla Chemical Depot. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource State of Oregon Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/18/2004 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J026 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffe49812ab2c1a01965ac7ceb15679b23.jpg ed60126fd35216da82e9bf79c29c2a77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appointment of the Chemical Demilitarization Citizens Advisory Commission Description An account of the resource Appointment by the governor of Oregon, John A. Kitzhaber, as member of the Chemical Demilitarization Citizens Advisory Commission from March 1, 1998 to February 28, 2000. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource State of Oregon Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J028 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fca05bf1f3db168818585e8d5d6f3b125.pdf 4422811fc7a8682984fdd846a840a712 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9aee170e7623762bb38eb8c416d257c9.pdf c7fdba7dbd688f81fe9b80d2a300ef02 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5280545983440df6ab14fe84cfaea541.pdf f6fcd3f15af2146d76454c7dcf1eca23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource James L. Acord, sculptor Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear Science and Fine Art Description An account of the resource James Leroy Acord (1944–2011) was an artist recognized for his work with radioactive materials. His artistic practice involved creating sculptures and events that engaged with the history of nuclear engineering and addressed questions surrounding the long-term storage of nuclear waste. The James L. Acord archival collection chronicles the life, career, and legacy of Acord, who was the only private individual to be licensed for the artistic use of radioactive materials. Acord’s work is characterized by his efforts to combine nuclear science with contemporary sculpture. His nuclear license number was tattooed on his neck. For 15 years, Acord resided in Richland, Washington, a community established for the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. While there, he developed a proposal to construct a "Nuclear Stonehenge" on a contaminated section of the Hanford site, which would have incorporated twelve uranium breeder-blanket assemblies. He also created the sculpture, "Monstrance for a Grey Horse," which is located at Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas. Acord lectured at art and nuclear industry events in both the United States and the United Kingdom. He also organized forums that convened artists, activists, and nuclear industry experts. From 1998 to 1999, he held an Artist in Residence position at Imperial College London. He died in Seattle on January 9, 2011, at the age of 66. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford History Project (HHP) operates under a sub-contract from Hanford Mission Integration Services (HMIS), who are a primary contract for the US Deparment of Energy's curatorial services for the Hanford Site. HHP proudly manages the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection, an artifact and archival collection that documents the Manhattan Project and Cold War history of the Hanford Site (1943-1990). Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Radioactive Material License WN-I0407-1 Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear Science and Fine Art Description An account of the resource Jim Acord's radioactive material license documents dated September 4, 1992 and May 5, 1993 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource State of Washington Radioactive Materials Licensing Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford History Project (HHP) operates under a sub-contract from Hanford Mission Integration Services (HMIS), who are a primary contract for the US Deparment of Energy's curatorial services for the Hanford Site. HHP proudly manages the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection, an artifact and archival collection that documents the Manhattan Project and Cold War history of the Hanford Site (1943-1990). Scripto Transcription A written representation of a document. State of Washington. Radioactive Materials license. The Seal of the State of Washington 1889 Page 1 of 2 Pages. Pursuant to the Nuclear Energy and Radiation Control Act, RCW 70.98, and the Radiation Control Regulations, Chapters 246-220 through 246-255 WAC, and in reliance on statements and representations heretofore made by the licensee designated below, a license is hereby issued authorizing such licensee to transfer, receive, possess and use the radioactive material(s) designated below; and to use such radioactive materials for the purpose(s) and at thee place(s) designated below. This license is subject to all applicable rules and regulations promulgated by the State of Washington Department of Health. 1 1. Licenesee: Name JAMES L. ACORD 2. Address: P. O. Box 159 Richland, Washington 99352 3. Licensee Number: WN-I0407-1 4. Expiration Date: September 30, 1997 5. Reference number(s): 92-07-37; 92-08-12; 92-08-40; 92-09-04 6. Radioaciive Material (element and mass number) A. Uranium (Depleted in Uranium 235) 7. Chemical and/or Physical Form A. Uranium oxide, as sintered ceramic pellets, in breeder-blanket assemblies, manufactured by Siemens Brennelementwerk, a branch of Siemenes AG Interatom (Model/serial numbers YM 20N 001 c through YM 20N 012C) 8. Maximum quality licensee may possess at any one time A. No single source to exceed 42 millicuries (1554 megabecquerels), 12 sources total. CONDITIONS 9. Authorized use. A. For storage only. 10. Radioactive materials shall be stored at Siemens Power Corporation, 2101 Horn Rapids Road, Richland, Washington. 11. The licensee shall comply with the provisions of WAC 246-220 "General Provisions“; WAC 246-221 "Radiation Protection Standards“; WAC 246-222 "Radiation Protection - Worker Rights“; and WAC 246-235 "Specific Licenses“. 12. The Radiation Safety Officer for this program shall be James L. Acord. 13. Radioactive material shall be stored under the supervision of James L. Acord and/or Siemens Power Corporation, operating under their Washington State Radioactive Materials license, WI-1062-1. DOH 322-014 (Rev. 1/91) State of Washington Radioactive Materials License The Seal of the State of Washington 1889 Page 2 of 2 Pages License Number: WN-10407-1 14. The transport of licensed material by the licensee, or the delivery of licensed material to a carrier for transport, shall be in accordance with WAC 246-232-090 "Transportation." 15. The licensee's emergency procedures shall conform to procedures outlined in the Washington State Radiation Emergency Handbook revised November 1991, or subsequent revisions. 16. Contamination and dose rate surveys shall be done of each breeder/blanket assembly, upon receipt, and quarterly thereafter. Records of these surveys shall be kept by the Radiation Safety Officer and made available for inspection by the department upon request. 17. The Department shall be informed: 1) prior to removal of the breeder/blanket assemblies from Siemens Power Corporation, and 2) prior to any work on the assemblies including, machine work, processing, refabrication, or modification of the assemblies. 18. A physical inventory shall be done every 6 months to account for the 12 breeder assemblies. The records of these inventories shall be maintained for inspection by the department. 19. Except as specifically provided by this license, the licensee shall store radioactive material described in Items 6, 7, and 8 of this license in accordance with statements, representations and procedures contained in the documents listed below. The department's "Rules and Regulations for Radiation Protection" shall govern the licensee’s statements in applications or letters, unless the statements are more restrictive than the regulations. A. Application and attachments dated July 7, 1992. B. Letter and attachments dated August 6, 1992; letter dated August 26, 1992 with attached letter dated February 25, 1992; and letter and attachments dated August 31, 1992, including another letter dated August 31, 1992, RE: Initial application. Date September 4, 1992 FOR THE STATE OF WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH By (signed) Debra McBaugh Radioactive Materials Licensing DOH 322-0134 (Rev. 12/90) State of Washington Radioactive Materials License The Seal of the State of Washington 1889 Page 1 of 1 Pages License Number: WN-I0407-1 Amendment No. 1 JAMES L. ACORD Post Office Box 159 Richland, Washington 99352 Attention: James L. Acord Radiation Safety Officer In accordance with letter and attachments dated April 20, 1993, Radioactive Materials License Number WN-I0407-1 is amended as follows: License Condition 19.C is added: 19 . C. Letter and attachments dated April 20, 1993, RE: revised radiological survey form and storage diagram. Date May 5, 1993 (93-05-05) FOR THE STATE OF WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH By (signed) Pamela J. Walsh. (for) Bebra McBaugh Radioactive Materials Licensing DOH 322·013A (Rev. 12/90) Art drawing Hanford Jim Acord Manhattan Project nuclear nuclear art radioactive material license Richland sculpture sketch https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F625d45e72d626d7ff388a98c061c2af2.jpg 37b3864d3b5af2e2ac94c777d51a85eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Community Photograph Collections Subject The topic of the resource History of Hanford and the Tri-Cities area Description An account of the resource Photographs donated by the community to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. The Community Collections of the Hanford History Project have been graciously donated by community members for preservation and research use. Many of these are collections that were donated to the former Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology (CREHST) and transferred to WSU Tri-Cities in 2014. Bibliographic Citation A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible. [Item ID], Community Collections, Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 1 photo: color; 22cm X 28cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Bus Terminal Subject The topic of the resource Buses; Bus terminals; Transportation; Transportation facilities; Mass transit Description An account of the resource Photo of a bus terminal showing lanes of several blue buses labeled with Hanford areas and Richland street names (designating the bus's route), such as 200 W Hunt, 100-F Snow, and 100-H Comstock (includes others that are not legible). There are people visible in the photo--some are coming off a bus, while others are walking on the gravel in front of the buses. There are telephone poles running along the front of the buses. The previous photo numbers of the photos now numbered #345-355 are from PNL Photography. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Bickel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University - Tricities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1950s Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/ tif Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A_0345 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. For permission to publish please contact the Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447 Bus terminals Buses Mass transit Transportation Transportation facilities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0b7aa2cf10c4866b285fb53e144afb9d.jpg 9a6f3adefffd6ba4bafde8ca3b1f9fff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Community Photograph Collections Subject The topic of the resource History of Hanford and the Tri-Cities area Description An account of the resource Photographs donated by the community to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. The Community Collections of the Hanford History Project have been graciously donated by community members for preservation and research use. Many of these are collections that were donated to the former Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology (CREHST) and transferred to WSU Tri-Cities in 2014. Bibliographic Citation A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible. [Item ID], Community Collections, Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 1 photo: color; 22cm X 28cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Bus Terminal Subject The topic of the resource Railroad cars; Safety Description An account of the resource Photo of a bus terminal (shot taken from a different direction) showing 12 lanes of several blue buses labeled with Hanford areas and Richland street names (designating the bus's route), such 100-N, 300, and 100-D Wright (includes others, some of which are not legible). There are people visible in the photo standing in front of the buses. There are telephone poles visible throughout. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Bickel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University - Tricities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1940s-1950s Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/ tif Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A_0346 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. For permission to publish please contact the Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447 Railroad cars Safety https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fde34fbafa405c8d2969da614af1c2ea4.tif 584685844f3cc4242d62dd904391574b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bruggeman stone house Description An account of the resource This house was built in 1921 by the Von Herberg family on their ranch. Better known later as the Bruggemann homestead after a sale between the two parties. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-CIties Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Prior to World War II, approximately 2,000 people resided in the eastern Washington towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, Richland, and the surrounding area. Most were agricultural families who operated farms, ranches, orchards, and vineyards and produced such commodities as wheat, milk, apricots, peaches, and grapes. In 1943, as a result of the ongoing battles of both the European and Pacific Theaters of World War II, the United States government had set its sights on the Columbia Basin area as the site for a top-secret wartime enterprise known as the Manhattan Project. Beginning in January 1943 the unsuspecting residents of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland began receiving federal notice to vacate and acquiesce to the federal government purchasing their land for “fair market value.” Today, only three structures from this all-but-forgotten pre-WWII era remain, one of which stands isolated in the far northwest corner of what is now the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. The Bruggemann Warehouse is the only intact building on the bygone 406-acre Bruggemann homestead. The structure is now part of the Manhattan Project National Historical Park at Hanford. Paul Bruggemann was born in Schwetzingen, Germany in 1898, and according to his son Ludwig Bruggemann, after serving in the Great War, “my father wanted to become a farmer.” In 1926 Paul purchased the 406-acre Von Herberg cattle ranch in eastern Washington along the Columbia River to do just that. In October of 1937 he married his second wife Marry E. Hoard. The couple lived on the ranch for 6 years, welcoming two children during that time, Ludwig Bruggemann in in 1938 and Paula Bruggemann (Holm) in 1940. The ranch that Bruggemann purchased came equipped with an impressive irrigation system, including a private pumphouse, used to distribute water directly from the Columbia River. Farmers who did not have direct access to the Columbia River resorted to drilling wells hundreds of feet deep in order to reach the area’s water table. Conversely, many of Bruggemann’s neighbors along the Columbia River would have been using wooden flumes or pipes (both above and below ground) to move and distribute water on their land. Bruggemann’s irrigation pipes, however, were made of vitrified clay tile. In the arid environment of eastern Washington this advanced and extensive irrigation system proved to be a significant advantage for Bruggemann and his endeavor of transforming the large cattle ranch into a primarily fruit producing farm. Ludwig explains that the pump house was used to divert river water up the sloped land to a ditch system on the opposite side of the farm, which was then left to flow back down the slope, over the farmland, and back to the Columbia River. Ludwig also recalls that the pump house for the farm’s irrigation system was often not working properly, “I think every week he had a problem with that pump house.” Bruggemann began the process of cultivating the land, dedicating 60 acres to soft fruits such as grape vineyards and orchards that produced apricots, peaches, and plums. Bruggemann also planted 11 acres of alfalfa, likely used as feed for the goats, rabbits, and sheep that were also raised on the farm. Paula recalls that there was no need for her father to construct anything on the farm as there were several existing buildings ready for use including a farmhouse, silo, horse barn, cookhouse, garage, and storehouse. Uniquely, the house and the cookhouse were both constructed using glacial erratics from the Columbia River set into concrete. Over the years, the cookhouse eventually came to be mistakenly referred to as a warehouse due to the assumption that it was meant to store the soft fruit after harvest. This assumption, however, was incorrect. Paula corrects the historical record by explaining, “no, that was a cook house, and my grandma was the chief cook along with my mom and my mom’s sister.” Ludwig explains the challenge their mother faced while on the farm: “my mother was always very much loaded with work and cooking… It was a real burden for her.” The women were responsible for feeding not only the family, but a number of farm hands employed on the ranch as well. This meant that during the harvest season, arguably the busiest time of year for any farmer, they were cooking for upwards of 100 people, certainly a harrowing task for anyone. This would have been made all the more challenging by the relatively primitive cooking tools Mary would have used as well as the lack of a nearby grocery store – the closest one being in Sunnyside over an hour away. Ludwig, who would have been around 5 in the summer of 1943, remembers when two military jeeps arriving at the Bruggemann homestead. The occupants of the vehicles presented Paul Bruggemann with a notice from the United States Engineering Office of the War Department stating that as of July 14, 1943 the family had until September 30, 1943 to vacate the premises. The federal government hired several appraisers to evaluate the land and determine its value. It was eventually decided that the “fair market value” for the Bruggemann farm, including for all the buildings, structures, and crops, was $67,000.00 - $1,018,772.66 in today’s value. Paul Bruggemann, however, was dissatisfied with this estimation, and ultimately took his case to court where he demanded what he felt he owed. When asked by the courts what his profits were and what he thought the fair value of the land should be, Ludwig explains how his father was unable to provide an accurate estimate, saying, “I don’t have any profits yet. I built up that farm and I had my first crop on the trees when your two jeeps drove in.” Bruggemann was uncertain what the full profit he stood to make from the sale of his fruit because his first full fruit crop was waiting to be harvested when he received the notice to vacate his property. Unfortunately, there are no records of the outcome of this court case. While extended family members who had lived on the farm – Mary’s mother, sister, and brothers – relocated throughout the Pacific Northwest, the nuclear Bruggemann family moved to Yakima, Washington where Paul eventually purchased another farm. Being only 12 acres, his new farm was significantly smaller than the first, meaning that Bruggemann was able to work the land himself, becoming even more self-sufficient. Ludwig and Paula spent the rest of their childhood in Yakima. While Paula remained in the area, Ludwig eventually immigrated to his father’s native country of Germany. Paul Bruggemann passed away in Yakima in June of 1988 at the age of 89. Seventeen years his junior, Mary Bruggemann lived in Yakima for another 18 years until she passed away in March of 2006. <div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bruggemann Cookhouse Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcf742a09d21d930cafcfd17b2a5ae942.jpg 74881d28d4693952b48a2505e8ea1388 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document W. R. Amon and his son, Howard S. Amon, first settled in the lower Yakima Valley in 1904 when the pair purchased the large expansive Rosencrance Ranch, located on what is now Lee Boulevard and Goethals Drive in Richland near the Columbia River, from Ben Rosencrance. The following year in 1905, they purchased the Rich Ranch from Nelson Rich, a prominent local landowner, and a member of the Washington State Legislature from 1901-1902 and 1911-1913. The Amons quickly became prominent figures in the area as a result of their extensive philanthropy. The Amons were instrumental in Richland receiving its first telephone connections. Columbia Telephone System, a phone company based in the neighboring town of Kennewick, was able to provide phone service to Richland by extending Amon’s private line to the rest of town. This would have been a significant technological advancement for the small farming community. Not only would this have made communication between residents possible for social and emergency reasons, but it also would have connected Richland to the outside world. The Amons also invested in and worked to improve the small town’s irrigation systems. In the arid desert climate of eastern Washington, irrigation was crucial for survival. Settlers used various methods to bring water to their homesteads from digging wells and small canals and flumes. Some of the larger farms in the area were dependent on the enormous Rosencrance water wheel on the Yakima River for water. The Amons replaced this water wheel with a more effective gasoline powered water pump. In the spring of 1905, the Amons were among the founders of the Benton Water Company and quickly made a claim for 400 cubic feet of water per second from the Yakima River. This water was used for irrigation throughout the small town as well as for generating electricity for lighting and manufacturing. In the fall of 1908, the Benton Water Company and the Lower Yakima Irrigation Company merged, which ultimately led to the construction of a 15-mile long canal known as the Richland Irrigation Canal, which expanded the area that the irrigation system could reach, especially in north Richland. The Amons were also instrumental in the mapping out and establishment of Richland as a town. By 1905 the father-son duo had acquired 2,300 acres and proposed a townsite. To decide on a name for the new town a contest was held. The town name suggestions were drawn from a hat, the last name drawn was the winner – Benton briefly became the name of the small town in honor of the newly established Benton County. The name, however, did not last for long, as the United States Postal Service rejected the name for being too similar to the name of another small Washington town in Pierce County: Benston. As a result, the town was named Richland after Nelson Rich, and officially incorporated in 1910. In 1911, Howard Amon presented to the town of Richland (represented by C. F. Breithaupt) the deed to Amon Park as a gift to the community. In 1912 a decorative stone archway was constructed to mark the entrance to the park. The original archway was destroyed shortly after the federal government began acquiring land in Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland in 1943 as part of the top-secret wartime project that would ultimately come to be known as the Manhattan Project. It was also at this point that Amon Park was renamed Riverside Park. In 1918 a well was dug for the convenience of picnickers, a bandstand was constructed in 1920, and in 1934 volunteers began construction of a community swimming pool and bathhouse at the north end of the park which officially opened on July 4th, 1936. Amon Park’s annual Independence Day celebrations have been a favorite of the community for generations. In a letter written by Estella Murray West, who grew up in Richland, she recalls that “Fourth of July at Amon Park was always something. One year we even had a May Pole dance. We always had fried chicken, home-made freezer ice cream, sponge cake and potato salad. And fireworks a-plenty.” Over the last century the park has been transformed into picturesque grounds, perfect for a wide range of recreational activities for the community. Today an extensive path runs the length of the park the shore of the Columbia River that is ideal for strolls or biking. The park boasts an impressive children’s playground, tennis courts, and community center. Sprawling lawns under the canopy of hundred-plus year-old trees make for the perfect picnic spot and location for such family friendly events from car shows, art walks, concerts, cultural festivals and much more. A replica of the original park archway was constructed and dedicated by the Richland Centennial Committee on July 4th, 2010 approximately 25 feet northeast of where the original would have stood. For more than a century Howard Amon Park has remained a popular community locale not only for Richland – the town that the Amons worked so hard to help establish – but for the Tri-Cities as a whole. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Howard Amon Park Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Manley Bostwick Haynes and Judge Cornelius Holgate Hanford James Schroeder August 16, 2020 In 1900 the Priest Rapids Valley was sparsely populated save for scattered settlements near the small community of White Bluffs. This changed over the following decade when Manley Bostwick Haynes and his father-in-law Judge Cornelius Holgate Hanford established the town of Hanford several miles south of White Bluffs.<a title="">[1]</a> An ambitious Seattle banker, real estate investor, and socialite, Haynes often graced the society page of The Seattle Daily Times, first as an eligible bachelor and later as husband to Judge Hanford’s daughter Elaine.<a title="">[2]</a> Haynes always kept his eyes open for investment opportunities, and while sailing down the Columbia River during the 1890s found himself drawn to the open landscape of the Priest Rapids Valley. Convinced an adequate irrigation network could transform the dry shrub-steppe into farmland, Haynes purchased 32,000 acres between Richland and White Bluffs, an endeavor The Ranch claimed “promises to be one of the largest public utilities in the state.”<a title="">[3]</a> Haynes asked his father-in-law for support, and Judge Hanford became an enthusiastic investor.<a title="">[4]</a> By 1905 Haynes, Hanford, and several prominent Seattle businessmen established the Priest Rapids Irrigation & Power Company (PRIPC) to turn vision into reality.<a title="">[5]</a> Hanford was no stranger to ambition and had already achieved significant success as a lawyer and judge, becoming Washington Territory’s chief justice in 1889 and the first federal district court judge for Washington State in 1890.<a title="">[6]</a> Hanford supported agricultural development efforts, saying in 1905 in a speech steeped in racial bias that Native Americans, “as occupiers of the land, failed to use it as God intended that it should be used, so as to yield its fruits in abundance for the comfort of millions of inhabitants.”<a title="">[7]</a> When internal disputes led to the disintegration of the PRIPC Hanford and Haynes persevered, establishing the Hanford Irrigation & Power Company (HIPC) in 1906.<a title="">[8]</a> Hanford served for a time as HIPC president while Haynes acted as the company secretary.<a title="">[9]</a> Over the next two years as the HIPC constructed irrigation and pumping facilities, employees delineated and developed a company town.<a title="">[10]</a> Platted in 1907, this new town was named Hanford after the HIPC’s prestigious founder.<a title="">[11]</a> The HIPC advertised to attract new residents and Haynes even purchased a homestead for himself, moving there with his family in 1913. Known as “‘Arrowhead on the Columbia,’” The Seattle Daily Times described Haynes’ residence as “one of the show spots of the Hanford district.”<a title="">[12]</a> A prominent member of the community, Haynes was secretary of the White Bluffs Golf Club and even ran for State Representative in 1914.<a title="">[13]</a> Hanford’s brother Clarence also made a home here, establishing what historian Martha Berry Parker describes as “one of the valley’s most magnificent fruit farms.”<a title="">[14]</a> It is small wonder that Clarence Hanford was the one who gave grape mogul P. R. Welch a tour of the valley in 1911, petitioning him to open a juice factory near Hanford.<a title="">[15]</a> As a result of these efforts, Hanford’s population grew so that by 1910 the town numbered 369 people.<a title="">[16]</a> HIPC irrigation efforts were less successful. Persistent financial and maintenance problems dogged the company even after the Pacific Power and Light Company purchased it in 1910. Years of litigation ensued as Hanford, Haynes, and local farmers attempted to reduce exorbitant water rates. They received a favorable ruling in 1922 but legal costs left Haynes bankrupt.<a title="">[17]</a> Hanford’s downfall came primarily at his own hand. In May 1912 he revoked the citizenship of naturalized citizen Leonard Olsson on the grounds that he was a socialist, a decision that made national news and prompted an investigation by the US House of Representative’s Judiciary Committee.<a title="">[18]</a> Numerous witnesses subsequently testified that Hanford was a habitual drunk who caroused with women late into the night.<a title="">[19]</a> Even worse was the accusation that Hanford helped the HIPC purchase land from the Northern Pacific Railroad (NP) at a discount in exchange for a favorable tax ruling in 1907 that saved the NP $60,000. His credibility fatally undermined, Hanford tendered his resignation on July 22, 1912. The Congressional inquiry concluded after his resignation, conveniently halting further investigation into the actions of Hanford’s powerful business associates.<a title="">[20]</a> Despite the financial setbacks and scandals, Haynes and Hanford remained active in the Hanford community. In 1916, Haynes served as director of the Hanford school district and during WWI both men supported Red Cross donation drives and returning veterans.<a title="">[21]</a> Hanford became an author, and wrote about the history of Seattle until his death in 1926.<a title="">[22]</a> Haynes went on to serve as acting secretary of the Pacific Northwest Fruit Exposition in 1921.<a title="">[23]</a> That year he also served as president of Commonwealth Petroleum, a drilling interest in Benton County, and in 1922 he incorporated the Hanford-Priest Rapids Land Company.<a title="">[24]</a> Although Haynes moved to Seattle during the 1920s he did not lose his enthusiasm for rural development projects, and in 1935 he served as vice-president of the Columbia River Development League.<a title="">[25]</a> Haynes passed away in 1942 one year before the United States government destroyed the town he had worked so hard to create.<a title="">[26]</a> <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Mary Powell Harris, Goodbye, White Bluffs (Yakima, WA: Franklin Press, 1972), 99-103; Martha Berry Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, Before the Atomic Reserve (Fairfield, WA: Ye Galleon Press, 1986), 20; Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin, Nowhere to Remember: Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland to 1943 (Pullman, WA: Washington State University Press, 2018), 41. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> “Fruit Exposition Nov. 21-26,” The Leavenworth Echo (Leavenworth, WA), September 23, 1921, 7; “Manley B. Haynes,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), March 3, 1942, 13; “Society,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), April 29, 1899, 16; “Brevities,” The Seattle Post-Intelligencer (Seattle, WA), December 10, 1891, 8; “Society in Brief,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), May 22, 1897, 13. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Peter Bacon Hales, Atomic Spaces: Living on the Manhattan Project (Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1997), 19; Nancy M. Mendenhall, Orchards of Eden: White Bluffs on the Columbia, 1907-1943 (Seattle: Far Eastern Press, 2006), 86-87; “Another Big Irrigation Scheme,” The Ranch (Seattle, WA), October 1, 1906, 6; Bauman and Franklin, Nowhere to Remember, 41 </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Bauman and Franklin, Nowhere to Remember, 41; Mendenhall, Orchards of Eden, 86-87 </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> “Will Reclaim 32,000 Acres,” East Oregonian (Pendleton, OR), November 23, 1905, 7; “Another Big Irrigation Scheme.” </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> John Caldbick, “Federal District Judge Cornelius H. Hanford Resigns During Impeachment Investigation on July 22, 1912,” HistoryLink.org, September 6, 2010, https://www.historylink.org/File/9547. </div> <div> <a title="">[7]</a> Judge Cornelius Hanford, quoted in Coll Thrush, Native Seattle: Histories from the Crossing-Over Place (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 2017), 145, and in Alan J. Stein, “Seattle celebrates its 54th birthday and dedicates the Alki Point monument on November 13, 1905,” HistoryLink.org, August 7, 2002, https://www.historylink.org/File/3917. </div> <div> <a title="">[8]</a> “Two Towns Instead of One,” The Yakama Herald (North Yakama, WA), May 22, 1907, 8; “New Power Company Born,” The Evening Statesman (Walla Walla, WA), August 22, 1906, 1; Bauman and Franklin, Nowhere to Remember, 41-42; “Formerly of Minneapolis,” Minneapolis Messenger (Minneapolis, KS), February 13, 1908, 6. </div> <div> <a title="">[9]</a> “Irrigation at the Rapids,” Spokane Daily Chronicle (Spokane, WA), April 18, 1907, 12; “Another Big Irrigation Scheme.” </div> <div> <a title="">[10]</a> United States Department of Energy, Hanford Cultural Resources Management Plan (Richland, WA: Pacific Northwest Laboratory, 1989), D.68; Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 51, 57, 59; Mendenhall, Orchards of Eden, 58. </div> <div> <a title="">[11]</a> Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 43, 51. </div> <div> <a title="">[12]</a> United States Department of Energy, Hanford Cultural Resources Management Plan, D.69; “32,000 Acres Best Fruit Land in the Columbia River Early Fruit Belt,” The Ranch (Seattle, WA), December 1, 1907, 24; “Free,” The Ranch, January 1, 1908, 16; “Two Towns Instead of One;” “Society,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), May 16, 1913, 18; “Pretty Cottage Near Hanford,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), November 24, 1912; “Two homes and sage brush,” Hanford History Project, accessed July 22, 2020, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/1106. </div> <div> <a title="">[13]</a> “Blakely president of White Bluffs Club,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), May 17, 1914, 27; “Notice by County Auditor: Primary Election for State and County Except Supreme Court Judges) Offices),” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter (Kennewick, WA), September 3, 1914, 10. </div> <div> <a title="">[14]</a> Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 157. </div> <div> <a title="">[15]</a> Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 157; “Welch, Grape Juice King, Visits White Bluffs,” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter (Kennewick, WA), December 1, 1911, 9. </div> <div> <a title="">[16]</a> Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 149. </div> <div> <a title="">[17]</a> Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford, 1805-1943, 139, 141; Bauman and Franklin, Nowhere to Remember, 24, 43; United States Department of Energy, Hanford Cultural Resources Management Plan, D.68, D.76; Culture, 197, 205; Mendenhall, Orchards of Eden, 138-139. </div> <div> <a title="">[18]</a> Caldbick, “Federal District Judge Cornelius H. Hanford Resigns.” </div> <div> <a title="">[19]</a> Caldbick, “Federal District Judge Cornelius H. Hanford Resigns;” United Press Leased Wire, “Hanford Paid Visits to Woman,” The Tacoma Times (Tacoma, WA), July 2, 1912, 1. </div> <div> <a title="">[20]</a> Caldbick, “Federal District Judge Cornelius H. Hanford Resigns.” </div> <div> <a title="">[21]</a> “School Directors Hold Convention,” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter (Kennewick, WA), April 13, 1916, 1; “City Lagging in Big Drive for Red Cross,” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter (Kennewick, WA), June 21, 1917, 1; “Committee Named to Greet Artillerymen,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), December 10, 1918, 4. </div> <div> <a title="">[22]</a> “Death of Judge Hanford,” Washington Historical Quarterly 17, no. 2 (April 1926): 157-158; Caldbick, “Federal District Judge Cornelius H. Hanford Resigns.” </div> <div> <a title="">[23]</a> ‘Fruit Growers to Show Products at Exposition in Seattle,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), September 13, 1921, 8. </div> <div> <a title="">[24]</a> “Articles Filed with Secretary of State at Olympia,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), September 22, 1922, 19; “9 Oil Wells Sunk in Benton County,” The Oregon Daily Journal (Portland, OR), April 21, 1921, 2. </div> <div> <a title="">[25]</a> “Councilmen O.K. Power Survey,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), September 26, 1935, 14; “Seattle Man Takes Bride In Oregon,” The Seattle Daily Times (Seattle, WA), September 22, 1924, 10. </div> <div> <a title="">[26]</a> “Manley B. Haynes.” </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Judge Hanford and Manley Bostwick Haynes Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1b8e048fe346344aed4948763c2a26ef.tif 7a791f2d5e5c3e969a166d072792f0a0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel Moses Allard Description An account of the resource Samuel Allard in Red Lake Falls, Minn. From a tin type. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Prior to 1908 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fba05f4e310bf5660e0c268b736581ebc.tif b0a0d4b8f307975c82ad4410a8d33cd4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Allard Family Description An account of the resource "The little ones are Charles Sam Allard, Henry's boy & Edna Allard. About 1931. Henry Allard, Verna Chase, Hortense & Sam Allard". Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1931 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F75a5ccef77d76c82ea055b93d9a5aaa6.tif b72d58525f9676beb34228c061846060 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel and Hortense Allard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7940abee6e747c6e18f66a1725768272.tif 528e1cb467818e9d0f0d09c9cfdb89d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel and Hortense Allard Description An account of the resource "Sam Allard & 3rd wife Hortense, in 1943 at Allard, WA" Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F802c8722048364d513aa1dd668449467.tif c2769bf5c49edb5e674384f2810115a8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sam Allard and grandchildren Description An account of the resource "Sam Allard in 1941 with grandaugher, Verna Chase Thompson & his son in law, Vernon Chase. Sam's Grandaughters (Vernas girls) Sharon Thompson & Marea Thompson." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F188cb5c573fe67e5be9dc398b349cf3f.tif 574013f2f9fc0afdfed50dfeedc1d5fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel Allard in hay fields Description An account of the resource "Sam Allard in his hay fields by the Columbia River in the early 20's." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920s https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff57af4120446adca8e2ba4c28994bc3c.tif af1400942ca242c6e1f4f29c86c901cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Driftwood at Allard Ranch Description An account of the resource "Driftwoods on the Columbia River in late 1900's Allard Ranch." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5df0774c20aef849981083c206bed4b7.tif 4059b88f5534483741002aab605d413a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel Allard and horses Description An account of the resource "Sam Allard and his percherons at his ranch in early 1900's at the Columbia River in WA" Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-CIties Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa2096e9f480aaf0b9c6787a786bb419a.tif a52561a56275d9bde3ffce6d7865b09c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel and Henry Allard Description An account of the resource "Sam Allard & his son, Henry at Allard, Washington. Early 40's." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fda3a508f4727ee2bf8e06830db6783e9.tif 6b354bf799fc3501800f85f61a0171b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel and Emma Allard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1880 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0e861b2d5e3ca962d57f0bdc290a6c9e.tif dbff54d3e7a633e95c69f04da32f483e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Allard Family collage of apricot and peach trees Description An account of the resource Six images. "Vern Chase planted about 440 young trees on Allard Ranch, WA. 1941. IT shows how good the soil was first along the river (The Columbia) two years later, the government of the US moved in for the Atomic Bomb Project. (Broke my father's heart)." #1: March 1, 1941. Bare ground before plowed." #2: " 1st young trees. April 1, 1941." #3: "Same tree, May 1, 1941." #4: "Same tree, 1941 in June 1." #5: "July 1, 1941 one of aprioct trees." #6: "July 1, 1941 Same Peach tree." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6c6a9be6268b8ef535ec5c740461bccb.tif 65f778114b016483266cf2d4441578be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Allard Family collage of farm land Description An account of the resource Six images. "Vernon Chase loved to farm-almost a one man deal. After Sam Allard left the ranch. #1 East end of Allard Ranch, 1941. #2 Vern Chase planted a corn field-young stalks. #3 West end of Allard Ranch, 1941. #4 Vernon Chase's Corn fields at Allard, WA., 1941. (Later picture). #5 Vern Chase planted corn between his young orchard, 1941. Her wrote to Verna, 130 peach trees, 125 prune trees, 150 apricot trees, 35 apple trees. A new orchard on lower 5 acres of Allard Ranch. #6 Columbia River frozen over, 1941. Dogs on the ice! Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa47f4df00f1875fd892fd591021ca76d.tif e6c01d623478fe58a13f757c0a7c7d7d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Allard family collage of farm land and Vernon Chase's family Description An account of the resource Five images. #1 "Grandma Allard (Delia) 1941." #2: "Columbia River Ranch at Allard 1941." #3: "Vern Chase's corn and grandaughters Marea and Sharon Thompson. 1941 East end of Ranch." #4: "Vernon Chase on Allard Ranch, WA 1941." #5: Vern Chase taken by his daughter about 1941 (Vern's) Looking for arrowheads at Allard." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b498957fd6ad9ad01e632c25f90496d.tif 4773716443677acef2c64302a02fe9e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Advances in irrigation were a main factor in the rise of migration to the Columbia Basin at the turn of the century. The Priest Rapids Irrigation & Power Company, later the Hanford Irrigation & Power Company, constructed irrigation canals and pumping stations to supply water to the growing agricultural area. The Hanford Irrigation & Power Company pump house was operated by Samuel Allard for three decades. Samuel Moses Allard was born to Moses and Modess Allard in Churubusco, New York on March 3, 1859. The Allard Family moved to Red Lake Falls, Minnesota in 1881 where Samuel married Emma Malvina Marie Crompe on November 30 of that year. Allard was the first town clerk and assessor of Gervais Township in Red Lake County, Minnesota beginning in 1885 where he was in charge of recording all births and deaths. Samuel and Emma Allard had four children together prior to her death in 1888. Samuel remarried Delia (Mayhew) Allard in 1890 with whom he had an additional child. Samuel, Delia and their daughter Anna moved to Washington State in 1908 when Samuel was hired by the Hanford Irrigation & Power Company (HIPC) to help construct an irrigation pumping station near the Coyote Rapids community. Coyote Rapids, located west of White Bluffs, was originally the village of P’na, which European settlers took from the people of the Wanapum tribe. The Coyote Rapids community was located in what is now the 100 K Area of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. Samuel was the primary operator for the HIPC hydroelectric pumping station, which supplied water to the nearby town sites of Hanford and White Bluffs through the Hanford Irrigation Canal. The Allard family owned around 200 acres of land in the Coyote Rapids community where they grew peaches, apricots, corn and alfalfa as well as raising cattle. In 1912 the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Railway added a stop in the Coyote Rapids area after which Samuel built a store and post office for the community, which then went by Allard. Allard was very active in the community and local politics at times serving as president of the White Bluffs Commercial Club, postmaster for the local grange and County Commissioner of Benton County. Allard operated the Hanford Irrigation & Power Company pump house for thirty years, which led many to refer to it as “Allard Pump house” to this day. Samuel and Delia Allard divorced in 1926 and he married his third wife, Hortense, a few years later. Samuel and Hortense remained in the Allard community until the United States Government seized the land in 1943 for the creation of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. The Allards moved to Prosser, Washington where Samuel Allard died in 1945. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel Moses Allard Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F41940cbd58b41f91d6ac50e14439031b.tif 7c94db29504a326a0e056e8e400beca5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford street scene Description An account of the resource "Old town Hanford" street scene Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F13514a35c0dd5aa9d25b6a9904a8ff7b.tif 7453d90887af0fdbb970d942616acf01 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Horticultural Exchange Description An account of the resource Hanford Horticultural Exchange at Hanford townsite Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff9efd6bfa8465ef1031e45d6dc00e228.tif 24f656800eec4936c63451312d5498ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford street scene Description An account of the resource Early photo of Hanford townsite. Planters hotel can be seen in background. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffc5d75dc6448128fd2ab3037a2947c35.tif 6649dc83e77fa19f965f6daa4af06380 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford street scene Description An account of the resource Hanford street scene, hotel and bank. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd7e584cb3923e4835a4e6c7b71aa5da1.tif 67126a987390ed5db1994c29be4d76d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford business district Description An account of the resource Hotel and bank in Hanford, Washington. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F38e1c7dd944c5749bfe7d2d5986fa97b.tif 02c4e239cabb820ea0096764cd33c655 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford street scene Description An account of the resource "A tree grows in Hanford-- Early century photo shows main street of the town of Hanford." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1ade4f33de9e8a16efba8eb29989b771.tif 88b508e816bc4c12c4fc6aab4a5c740f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford street scene Description An account of the resource Hanford street scene, early photo. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document The name Hanford is forever tied to the Manhattan Project and construction of the first atomic weaponry, but few traces remain of the town upon whose ruins the nuclear age was born. Although the town of Hanford was less than 40 years old when government bulldozers leveled its buildings to construct plutonium production facilities in the early 1940s, its residents had already built a resilient community and agricultural economy. Irrigation water was the lifeblood for many farming communities and Hanford owed its existence to large-scale irrigation projects. Entrepreneur Manley Bostwick Haynes and his father-in-law Judge Cornelius Hanford led these efforts, founding the Priest Rapids Irrigation & Power Company (PRIPC) in 1905 to irrigate 32,000 acres in the Priest Rapids Valley. These development efforts depended upon the successful establishment of a company town in the region, a seed Hanford and Haynes hoped would blossom into an economic powerhouse. Early disagreements over the best location for a town contributed to the dissolution of the PRIPC. Some investors, including Hanford and Haynes, established the Hanford Irrigation & Power Company (HIPC) while others formed the White Bluffs Irrigation Company (WBIC). Although the old town of White Bluffs had been located along the eastern bank of the Columbia River, the WBIC established a new townsite on the western side where there was more space for growth. In 1907 the HIPC established its own town roughly seven miles downriver from White Bluffs, naming the community Hanford after the company’s president. That same year the HIPC completed the Hanford Ditch, an irrigation canal channeling water at Coyote Rapids to farmland near Hanford. In 1908 while engineers completed a power plant at Priest Rapids and a pumping station (Allard’s Pump House) to supply water to the Hanford Ditch, Daniel Pratt of The Ranch lauded the project as “A Great Irrigated Empire in the Making.” The HIPC shared this enthusiasm. Before the town had even been established, they advertised the fantastic profits to be made by those purchasing land at Hanford. As a result, Hanford quickly boomed. In 1908 The Spokesman-Review estimated a population “of between 200 and 300 people.” By 1910 the population numbered 369, and several businesses dotted the town. The Jahnke and Parker Bank opened its doors, and newcomers rested at the newly constructed Planters and Columbia Hotels. Initially, a single building served as both a school and a church. Eventually Hanford grew to contain several churches and denominations and in 1917 the town constructed a new high school for local children. The HIPC helped establish a town ferry service to compensate for the poor roads and dearth of bridges that hindered travel in the region. Their crowning achievement came in 1913 when the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Railroad built a branch from Beverly to Hanford, allowing farmers to consistently ship produce to market. The fertile soil of the Priest Rapids Valley proved excellent for growing high quality soft fruits, berries, and grapes as well as alfalfa and asparagus. However, farmers also needed a reliable irrigation system, something the HIPC struggled to provide. The Hanford Ditch was prone to washouts and seepage; expensive problems frequently encountered due to the loose, porous soil of the Priest Rapids Valley. For two decades the HIPC sputtered in the face of financial crises and litigation until disbanding in 1930 to be replaced by the Priest Rapids Irrigation District. Hanford continued to grow despite these problems, albeit at a slower pace. By 1940 roughly 463 people lived in Hanford, a long way from the optimistic 40,000 predicted by The Wenatchee Daily World in 1907. Fires periodically damaged the town, most notably in 1910 when much of Hanford’s business district burned and during the winter of 1936 when fire destroyed the Hanford High School. Daily life was difficult, and families worked together to plant, cultivate, and harvest crops. Many farmers struggled to survive and often worked odd jobs to supplement meager farming incomes. The Great Depression exacerbated this poverty. Nevertheless, resident Robert Brinson remembered Hanford was a safe community where “people… helped each other,” and many Priest Rapids Valley inhabitants later recalled feeling a strong community spirit. Social activities defined life in Hanford. Local organizations included The Grange, local churches, and the town band, while events ranged from community fairs and July 4th celebrations to school sporting events. On a national level, Hanford citizens thought of themselves as patriotic Americans, and during World War I and World War II raised money for the Red Cross, rationed food, sent care packages to soldiers overseas, and performed military service. Washington State allocated land near Hanford for the Land Settlement Act of 1919, a program designed to provide subsidized land to veterans. The impacts of World War II hit closer to home. Hanford residents were anguished when they received letters in March 1943 notifying them that their property had been acquired by the United States government and that they had a month to vacate the premises. After the Manhattan Project destroyed the town of Hanford, many displaced residents felt grief for the community they lost and for decades held reunions to keep old friendships alive. Today little remains of the once bustling town except for faint irrigation ditches and the ruins of the abandoned Hanford High School silhouetted against the sky. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Townsite Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3d7df7b8d82e5104da44c1e1f4cc1362.tif 7761e0e074484a308043d2cdf44f9402 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernita school house Description An account of the resource A group young people standing on the porch of a school house. Between Priest Rapids & Allard. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1924 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Located in northern Benton County with the Priest Rapids Dam to the west and the abandoned town of White Bluffs to the east, Vernita marks a historic embarkation point for travelers crossing the Columbia River. Local Native American tribes traversed this region thousands of years before European settlement, and the Wanapum Indians in particular valued the Priest Rapids Valley as a bountiful Sockeye Salmon fishery during the fall and a seasonal camp during the winter. The mid-nineteenth century saw an influx of Euro-Americans to the region as prospectors searched for gold and farmers traveled en-route to the Willamette Valley of Oregon. Although the region’s dry terrain attracted few farmers, ranchers valued the vast, unfenced open spaces and the plentiful bunchgrass that could be used as fodder for cattle and horses. After harsh winters in the 1880s destroyed cattle herds throughout the Washington territory, settlers near Priest Rapids Valley, inspired by a growing faith that modern science and engineering could reshape desert environments into lush farmland, turned increasingly towards agriculture as a source of subsistence and profit. Vernita was one of the many small communities that developed during this period of settlement at the turn of the twentieth century. Before the construction of railroads, river steamers and ferries were lifelines for these secluded communities, providing critical transportation and shipping services. Although residents had long preferred to cross the Columbia several miles east at the White Bluffs ford where the soil was firmer than the sandy banks further towards Priest Rapids, this did not stop German homesteader Otto Jaeger from opening a ferry business at Vernita in 1901. A fixture in the Vernita farming community, Jaeger maintained a home described by historian Martha Berry Parker as “a mecca for travelers and wayfarers.” In the late 1900s entrepreneur Jackson T. Richmond assumed control over the Vernita ferry, and in 1908 he replaced Jaeger’s older oar and current-powered vessel with a newer cable ferry. The eponymous “Richmond ferry” operated until 1943, providing vital transportation to local passengers and livestock alike. A public ferry service was revived in 1957 as part of a Washington State highway initiative, and remained in service until the construction of Vernita Bridge in 1965. Irrigation was as vital to the early survival of the Vernita farming community as river transportation, and Vernita farmers were often forced to rely on private businesses such as the Priest Rapids Irrigation and Power Company (PRIPC) and its successor, the Hanford Irrigation and Power Company (HIPC). In 1908 the HIPC’s construction of the Priest Rapids Powerplant and the Coyote Rapids Pumping Plant (Allard Pump House) helped provide irrigation to the Priest Rapids Valley, but technical and financial difficulties hindering waterflow and corporate solvency ensured that access to water remained a perpetual concern for farmers. Vernita farmers found that most crops could grow with proper irrigation. Although apples, peaches, cherries, and apricots were staple crops, the region’s climate is hospitable to a wide variety of produce ranging from strawberries and melons to tobacco and peanuts. One particularly notable example occurred in 1940 when the Kennewick Courier-Reporter announced that farmers at Vernita had discovered a new variety of fast ripening apricot in Paul Bruggerman’s orchard that they had christened “Riverland Moorpark.” Indeed, farmers and journalists often declared that crops grown at Vernita ripened earlier than produce grown in other areas of the state, a fact advertised by valley boosters seeking to encourage new settlement. Although the first farmers at Vernita shipped fresh produce to market via riverboat, shipping schedules became more consistent and dependable in 1913 when the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Railroad extended a branch through Vernita on its route from Beverly, Washington to Hanford. Despite these changes, Vernita remained a small town throughout its existence, dwarfed by the neighboring town of White Bluffs which had a population of 500 by 1940. Residents maintained an adequate education system with some difficulty. Although children attended elementary school within Vernita, high school students were forced to travel to White Bluffs. This shortage of educational facilities was exacerbated in 1929 when the Vernita school building was destroyed by fire, an omnipresent threat on the dry and windy shrub steppe. The Great Depression brought economic hardship to Vernita as produce markets collapsed, although farmers had the advantage of being able to grow their own food. The economic crisis spurred a wave of federal spending that directly impacted the lives of Vernita residents. A country extension school was established in Vernita in 1933 to provide farmers with access to the latest agricultural research and techniques. Vernita’s industry also evolved during the early 1940s when the Bonneville Power Administration constructed a new substation next to the town. Named “Midway Substation” for its location between the newly completed Grand Coulee Dam and the Bonneville Dam, this facility was a valuable source of employment in the region. Locals had little time to benefit from these developments. In March 1943, shocked and angry residents throughout the Priest Rapids Valley received government notifications stating that their properties had been acquisitioned for the war effort. Vernita’s proximity to the Priest Rapids Power Plant and the Midway Substation was a blessing for some of Vernita’s residents. Although towns like Hanford and White Bluffs were bulldozed during the construction of the Hanford Site, Murrel Dawson recalls that the government allowed her father to remain in the Priest Rapids Valley until 1948 to operate the power plant. Vernita itself survived into the 1970s as a company town housing the families of several Midway Substation employees. The stretch of river next to Vernita Bridge and townsite remains a popular destination for salmon fishing, but little remains of the once vibrant agricultural community. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernita Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4444f0fe10ab512bc15c6ee92a7c7c84.tif ffa0eadee98cd6c493b5682d6a64d43b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horn Rapids Dam Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Elva McGhan Wallace Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe7030e9c7a8878d5caa7c7232b213ba5.jpg 774175289b1fdd5fd15d6192a13e1443 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horn Rapids Dam Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1944 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b780fee4ca2994907ce2e7418675499.jpg 79fce17f5d30150e61038ac3d40d3542 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horn Rapids Dam Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1944 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8c1c98a00c35d2a3435977cb147e35eb.jpg 10f0357501d8eaf0f3aa1647864ff636 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horn Rapids Dam Fish Screens Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1944 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F405fa29ede0323b3d147e76e009e895a.jpg d0f932c22f13131683b4edf77213df31 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horn Rapids Dam Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document At the turn of the nineteenth century, farmers and entrepreneurs dreamed of large irrigation projects to transform the arid Priest Rapids Valley into a fertile breadbasket rivaling California. Soon irrigation ditches and canals both real and planned crisscrossed the region. Constructed in 1892, the Horn Rapids Dam (renamed Wanawish Dam in 1997) was the cornerstone to irrigation efforts along the lower Yakama River, controlling water levels and enabling the communities of Kennewick and Richland to thrive. Horn Rapids Dam derives its name from its location on the Horn Rapids, a short strip of the Yakama River that makes an abrupt north-south U-turn before emptying into the Columbia. The Rapids are a traditional salmon and whitefish fishing ground for the Yakama and Wanapum Indian tribes, and a 1994 federal report clarifies that Wanawish in fact means “rock dam fishing place.” Native tribes gathered food throughout the valley during seasonal migrations, and Wanapum Chief Johnny Buck’s brother Frank remembered that the Wanapum Tribe often stopped at Horn Rapids during the middle of the summer. Native men fished off of wooden fishing platforms using spears and dip nets, while women on the shore sliced fish open to dry on poles. Although Euro-Americans forced many Washington tribes onto reservations, rights guaranteed by the Yakama Treaty of 1855 allowed Native Americans to continue fishing the Horn Rapids. These rights remain in effect today, and Native fishing platforms can still be seen along the Yakama River. Euro-American settlers fished as well, and even in 1914, lucky fishermen caught 30-pound salmon. Euro-Americans soon saw the Horn Rapids as an important location for agriculture as well. Although construction of Northern Pacific (NP) rail lines during the 1880s facilitated settlement, farmers needed irrigation. The Yakama Irrigation and Improvement Company (YI&I) first tried to address this need. New York entrepreneurs founded the YI&I in 1888 and purchased thousands of acres of NP holdings in the Yakama Valley. Initial plans were to construct an irrigation canal near Kiona and two canals originating on either side of the Horn Rapids, one to irrigate Kennewick to the south and one to irrigate farmland in the north (this northern community became Richland in 1905). The YI&I purchased water rights to the Horn Rapids in 1891, and in November 1892 superintendent I. W. Dudley announced the construction of a concrete dam to “extend the width of the river bed [for] 600 feet.” This dam raised the height of the Yakama River to ensure canals received water throughout the year. Despite the YI&I’s optimism, construction on its canal network progressed slowly, and the company faced persistent financial problems. Although they successfully extended the southern canal to Kennewick in 1893 it was expensive to operate and maintain. Seepage caused by loose soil was a constant problem. Even a decade later some canals in the region still lost over 25% of their precious water to leaks. These plans came to naught when financial instability, exacerbated by the national economic crisis of 1893 and damage from severe flooding in 1894, collapsed the YI&I. Large scale irrigation projects were thus put on hold until NP employee Thomas Cooper arrived in the region in 1901. Cooper and other NP officials were optimistic about irrigation’s potential. The NP could make money selling water and the increased agricultural production would simultaneously increase rail traffic. That year the Northwestern Improvement Company (NWI), an NP subsidiary, purchased what was left of the Kennewick Canal and the Horn Rapids Dam. NP officials worried about putting all their eggs in the NWI basket however, and so in 1902 the NWI transferred its Kennewick assets to the Northern Pacific Irrigation Company (NPI), a separate subsidiary. In addition to repairing the Kennewick Canal the NPI extensively renovated the Horn Rapids Dam, constructing a more “permanent dam” in 1903 to provide water for its irrigation holdings. The new Horn Rapids Dam was constructed out of wood and rock using a timber crib design that remained unchanged for a century. Only after 1996 flooding severely damaged the structure did engineers install a concrete dam. The Horn Rapids Dam is an example a successful early irrigation projects in the Arid West, providing vital water to farming communities on both sides of the Yakama River. Kennewick grew quickly over the next three decades as a result of the dam. Administration changed in 1918 when the newly formed Columbia Irrigation District (CID) assumed control of NPI’s holdings, including the Kennewick Canal and Horn Rapids Dam. On the north side of the Yakama River developments followed a similar trajectory under the direction of local entrepreneurs. The Lower Yakama Improvement Company and the Benton Water Company both tried to irrigate farms along the lower Yakama and in 1908 used their joint resources to construct the 15-mile Richland Irrigation Canal. This canal serviced farms around Richland until the town was annexed by the United States government in 1943. Land near Horn Rapids Dam was put to additional use when, in 1944, the American military constructed a facility called Colombia Camp to house the Hanford Site’s prison labor force. Even today Horn Rapids Dam remains vital to Yakama River irrigation and serves as a valued fishing ground for Native tribes. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanawish (Horn Rapids) Dam Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document In early March 1943, Priest Rapids Valley residents looked forward to a good harvest. Although valley farmers suffered during the Great Depression, rising crop prices caused by the ongoing war in Europe led many to finally see light at the end of the tunnel. These dreams shattered on March 6 when residents received official letters notifying them that the United States government had requisitioned their land for the war effort and that they were to vacate their homes within 30 days. Military officials with the Manhattan Project had selected the valley as the site for the world’s first plutonium production facility. Known as the Hanford Engineer Works (the Hanford Site), this installation eventually encompassed 670 square miles selected for its isolation, access to electric power from Bonneville and Grand Coulee Dams, and proximity to the Columbia River. The evictions displaced approximately 2,000 people and destroyed many of the small communities throughout the valley. American history is filled with similar tales. During the mid-nineteenth century the federal government pressured Native American tribes to cede vast portions of Washington State, enabling successive waves of Euro-American traders, gold miners, ranchers, and farmers to settle the Priest Rapids Valley. These settlements blossomed in the early twentieth century when irrigation projects watered the arid shrubsteppe. Hanford and White Bluffs were two of the largest towns in the valley, and in 1940 had populations of 463 and 501 people respectively. Richland had a population of 247 but hundreds more resided on farms surrounding the town and homesteads and small communities dotted the valley. The Wanapum Tribe also lived here as they had done for thousands of years. Few people realized how suddenly this would change. Residents later recalled seeing “surveyors, engineers, and appraisers” in early 1943. At the time few realized the significance of these sightings. At the start of the year the government had quietly prepared to requisition the region and on February 23 a federal court sanctioned these plans. Authorities publicized this decision on March 6, notifying residents in Hanford, White Bluffs, the farms around Richland, and surrounding communities. Emotions “ranged from resignation to shock and disbelief, [and] to anger and bitterness.” Residents had spent decades investing time, savings, and energy into their farms, and many cherished the bonds of friendship and community that held these towns together. Hypotheses about the Hanford Site’s purpose ranged from a poison gas factory to toilet paper plant, but few explanations eased the emotional and financial burden carried by those facing eviction. Inconsistent eviction dates added to confusion. Although most notices gave residents 30 days to leave, Army officials postponed evictions for people with farms near the edge of the Hanford Site until after fall harvest. Food was a vital resource in wartime. Indeed, after farmers were evicted the government used prisoners to pick remaining fruit, and some orchards remained in cultivation until the end of the war. Although the government offered residents compensation for lost property, different eviction dates and fluctuating crop prices created discrepancies when government appraisers assessed property values. Observers and residents also argued that appraisers were poorly trained, used sloppy measurement techniques, and grossly misjudged market values. Many evictees successfully sued the government, and courts often doubled the compensation farmers received. Some rulings increased the land valuation “as high as 600 per cent.” None of these rulings could reverse the displacement of Priest Rapids Valley residents. Although traces of Hanford and White Bluffs remain, bulldozers destroyed most of these communities. Workers even exhumed bodies buried at White Bluffs Cemetery, reinterning the remains at the nearby town of Prosser. Many evicted residents eventually resettled in towns around Washington. Forced to buy new land at a time when prices were high, they often could not replace what they had lost. A few chose to stay as Hanford Site employees. Richland remained standing, converted by Manhattan Project contractor DuPont into a “company town” built around servicing the Hanford Site. Many buildings were used as offices and houses for government workers and in 1944 the town’s population numbered 11,000 people. The establishment of the Hanford Site also severed the Wanapum tribe’s access to the valley. Although they received special permission to fish near White Bluffs in 1943, the military revoked this decision two years later. Over the following decades, former White Bluffs and Hanford residents came together at annual reunions to reminisce about the communities they lost. The Priest Rapids Valley achieved renown, first as the region where America’s nuclear arsenal was created and later as the repository for catastrophic quantities of environmental pollutants, but the communities that once stood here and the dreams of the people who lived in the valley remain buried underneath the sand and in distant memories. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Displacement Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Approximately fifteen thousand years ago, roaring walls of water hundreds of feet high ripped through the Priest Rapids Valley at 80 miles an hour, scarring the hills and ridges, gouging out new ravines and coulees, and leaving sediment strewn across the landscape. All human and animal life in the path of the raging waters died instantly. Floods on this massive scale happened not once, but hundreds of times over the course of the last Ice Age, a period of glaciation lasting roughly 2.6 million years. During this time, glaciers across North America underwent cycles of expansion and contraction that lasted tens of thousands of years. The most recent cycle occurred between 80,000 and 15,000 years ago. The Cordilleran glacier spread south from Canada sending giant fingers of ice into Washington, Idaho, and Montana. One finger (the Purcell Trench ice lobe) traveled down the border of Idaho and Montana, creating an ice dam in the Rocky Mountains that prevented the flow of the Clark Fork River. Valleys behind the dam quickly filled with water to form 3,000 square mile Lake Missoula in Montana. Geologists estimate that between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago the ice containing Lake Missoula failed as many as 100 separate times, creating what are known as the Missoula Floods. Rising water either caused the ice dam to float, or melted and widened cracks until the dam collapsed. Torrents of water then swept south and west across eastern Washington, traveling hundreds of miles before emptying through the Willamette Valley of Oregon into the Pacific Ocean. Water traveled so fast that each flood only lasted a week. Floodwater scraped away topsoil to form the Channeled Scablands and dramatically reshaped the topography of central and eastern Washington. Other giant floods also occurred during this period. Seventeen thousand years ago, Lake Bonneville (the larger ancestor of the Great Salt Lake) in Utah smashed through its rocky bank, sending water as far north as Washington. Glacial Lake Columbia in northern Washington also unleashed water when the glacier containing it retreated at the end of the ice age. Together these floods significantly impacted the environment and landscape of the Priest Rapids Valley. The landmarks these floods left behind are readily distinguishable today. As floodwaters advanced south, they slammed into the Saddle Mountains along the northern border of the Priest Rapids Valley. Too high to breach, the mountains forced water west through Sentinel Gap just south of Beverly and east along what became the Ringold and Koontz Coulees, flowing down towards Hanford. Missoula floodwaters slowed when they reached the narrow Wallula Gap southeast of Kennewick, a two mile opening in the Horse Heaven Hills through which the Columbia River flows to the sea. Excess floodwater quickly backed up into the Yakama and Priest Rapids Valleys, forming Lake Lewis. When the water slowed it deposited sediment, forming the Priest Rapids Bar near Priest Rapids Dam and Cold Creek Bar where much of the Hanford Site rests today. The Cold Creek Bar rerouted the Columbia River, blocking its original route south and forcing it east past the Hanford Site and White Bluffs. Flood deposits also rerouted the Yakama River, channeling it north through the Horn Rapids. On the Hanford Site, water completely covered Gable Mountain, eroding its slopes into the narrow, elongated shape seen today. Floodwaters also eroded the bluffs east of the Columbia, exposing distinctive white soil that gave name to the early town of White Bluffs. Could humans have witnessed these massive floods and lived to tell the tale? There is little evidence either way, although some Native American oral histories have reportedly been passed down for 14,000 years, and many stories from the region do refer to historic floods. In addition, Rattlesnake Mountain on the southern edge of the Priest Rapids Valley and one of the few landmarks higher than the floodwater is known to Native tribes as Laliik, or “‘stands above the water.’” Anyone lucky enough to survive the flooding would have had a difficult time remaining in the valley however. It takes time for plant and animal life to recover, and cyclical flooding ensured repeated destruction every several decades. As floodwaters emptied out of the Priest Rapids Valley, they left behind rocky debris from grounded icebergs and layers of sandy sediment. Thousands of years later, this sediment defines agricultural life in the region. Many crops grow well here, and the region is particularly well suited to grapes that thrive in the dry, permeable soil. Many American Viticultural Areas (AVAs) denoting quality wine regions are concentrated around the Priest Rapids Valley. Conversely, this loose, water-permeable soil also ensures that all but the best insulated irrigation canals constantly leak. Loose soil also contributes to frequent dust storms, a fact many new Hanford Site employees discovered when they arrived. Perhaps the most pressing concern is the fact that the majority of the Hanford Site’s slowly leaking nuclear waste remains stored in this ice age sediment. The age of these mammoth floods has long past, but their presence remains etched in the valley and the lives of its inhabitants. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ice Age Floods Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document One hot summer Sunday on July 28, 1996, college students William Thomas and David Deacy trekked along the Columbia River’s muddy shoreline hoping to witness the annual Columbia Cup hydroplane race, a Tri-Cities tradition since 1966. While walking through the muddy shallows at Columbia Park in Kennewick they were shocked to come upon a human skull partially buried in the shoreline. They notified the police of this unexpected find, who in turn sent the remains to Floyd Johnson of the Benton County coroner’s office for identification. Johnson was surprised by the age of the remains and promptly contacted consulting archeologist Dr. James Chatters for assistance. When the exact age of the find remained in doubt, Chatters sent a fragment of bone to be radiocarbon dated at the University of California, Riverside. The initial results indicated the individual soon to be dubbed by scientists and the press as “the Kennewick Man” and by Native American tribes as “the Ancient One,” was approximately 9,000 years old. This discovery initiated one of the most contentious debates over the handling of human remains in American history while casting light on the historical legacy of Native Americans in Washington State. This unique find reflects the fact that Native Americans resided in the Priest Rapids Valley for millennia. Indeed, the oldest discovered artifacts date back approximately 11,000 years. Although the remains were discovered at the confluence of the Columbia, Snake, and Yakima rivers, an ancient hub of travel and trade, there is little certainty surrounding the Ancient One’s life and death. Bone analyses determined he frequently maneuvered a spear and knapped stone into points. As a young man he even recovered from a spear injury to his hip, but the stone point remained lodged in his bone. Isotopic analyses also concluded that salmon may well have been a primary ingredient in his diet; deer, salmon, and camas bulbs are ancient staple resources in the region. Following the initial discovery the Umatilla, Yakama, Wanapum, Colville, and Nez Perce tribes of Washington and Idaho united to claim the Ancient One as their ancestor. Tribal oral histories dating back thousands of years are consistent with the 2015 analysis of DNA remnants by a team of Danish scientists led by Dr. Eske Willerslev confirming the Ancient One was indeed related to contemporary Native Americans. The Ancient One’s heritage became a point of controversy once Dr. Chatters announced the age of the remains. This raised the possibility that the Army Corps of Engineers, who controlled the excavation site, was obligated to repatriate the body to Native tribes under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) of 1990. However, Chatters’ most controversial statement was his conclusion that the skeleton appeared to have “Caucasoid” features indicating the individual shared more traits in common with Europeans than Native Americans. Although Chatters noted his findings did not mean Europeans had reached the continent before Native Americans, much nuance was lost in the subsequent publicity, and many articles questioned whether Native Americans were truly the original inhabitants of the Americas. The Umatilla and allied tribes argued that such statements were highly offensive, and petitioned for immediate repatriation of the remains and a halt to all further study. Native remains have often been misappropriated and stolen by anthropologists and archeologists. Many tribes felt that the scientists and the press were using the find to dismiss and delegitimize Native oral histories and claims to the land, the latest steps in a long history of abuse. The Army Corps of Engineers supported the tribes in their quest for repatriation, prompting fears in the scientific community that a chance to examine an ancient human and answer questions about early American settlement would be lost forever. In October 1996, eight scientists sued to halt repatriation and allow the remains to be studied, initiating a twenty-year legal battle documented in numerous books and articles. At the heart of their case was the argument that NAGPRA only applied to modern tribes, and that remains so ancient could not be definitively attributed to any “existing tribes or cultures.” After a lengthy process of adjudication the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals handed down the final verdict in 2004, ruling in the scientists’ favor and authorizing analysis of the remains. The situation changed in 2015 when new DNA technology enabled researchers to safety conclude that the Ancient One was related to “modern Native Americans.” As a result of these findings the federal government repatriated the Ancient One’s remains to the allied tribes for reburial at a secret location along the Columbia River. The discovery of the Ancient One demonstrates the need to establish and cultivate productive and respectful relationships between academic researchers and local tribes and communities, but also shines light onto the history of the Priest Rapids Valley and the people who resided in these lands over the last ten thousand years. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Ancient One Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document On May 29, 1855, 5,000 Native American chiefs and tribal delegates to the Walla Walla Treaty Conference gathered on the grasslands near Walla Walla to meet with Washington Territory’s Governor Isaac Stevens and Oregon Territory’s Superintendent of Indian Affairs Joel Palmer to negotiate tribal boundaries in eastern Washington. An afternoon rainstorm foreboded turbulent times ahead. After convening for two weeks, tribal representatives agreed to cede 60,000 square miles to the United States government in exchange for the Yakama Reservation in Washington, the Umatilla Reservation in Oregon, and the Nez Perce Reservation in Idaho. These concessions opened land to Euro-American settlement in the Priest Rapids Valley and profoundly reshaped the political geography of Washington. During the nineteenth century, many Euro-Americans adhered to the ideology of Manifest Destiny calling for divinely sanctioned continental expansion. Governor Stevens was no different. In 1853 after President Franklin Pierce appointed him both Governor and Superintendent of Indian Affairs in the newly created Washington Territory, Stevens promptly used his authority and his military surveying experience to promote Euro-American settlement and railroad networks in the Pacific Northwest, aided by army surveyor Captain George McClellan who later rose in fame as Union Commander during the American Civil War. Stevens believed that before his plans could come to fruition he needed to legally abolish Native claims to the land. Between 1854 and 1855 Stevens pressured Puget Sound tribes into signing treaties that confined them to reservations while ceding much of the west coast to the United States. He pushed tribes to exchange traditional migratory lifestyles for European-style farming, and like many Euro-Americans saw reservations as a temporary step to assimilate Native Americans into “civilized” society. In mid-1855 Stevens and Palmer approached tribes of the Columbia Basin hoping to achieve similar concessions. Leaders from the Yakama, Umatilla, Cayuse, Walla Walla, Nez Perce, and associated tribes traveled to Walla Walla to listen to their proposals. Yakama Chief Kamiakin initially tried to unite other leaders in opposition to any exploitative treaties. Stevens and Palmer undermined this unity by cajoling and threatening the delegates. Stevens emphasized the benefits of farming, claimed the United States would make generous payments in clothing and equipment, and warned that reservations provided protection against “bad white men.” Palmer declared that Native Americans and Euro-Americans could never live together in harmony, disingenuously warning that without reservations and special protections, tribes would suffer theft and abuse at the hands of settlers. Interpreter Andrew Pambrun claimed Stevens also told Kamiakin “if you do not accept the terms offered… you will walk in blood knee deep.” Gold had also been recently discovered in northern Washington, and few Native leaders could safely ignore the genocidal fate suffered by thousands of Native Americans during the California gold rush of 1849. Faced with these dire choices, Native leaders felt they had little choice but to agree to Stevens’ terms. Stevens did make limited concessions. Tribes retained the right to fish and hunt on ceded lands, practices vital for physical and spiritual sustenance. In addition, although Stevens only proposed the Yakama and Nez Perce reservations, tribal representatives successfully demanded a third reservation for the Umatilla, Walla Walla, and Cayuse tribes. On June 9 delegates signed the Yakama Nation Treaty of 1855 and the Walla Walla, Cayuse, and Umatilla Treaty of 1855. According to Pambrun, when Kamiakin signed “he was in such a rage that he bit his lips that they bled profusely.” A treaty with the Nez Perce was signed two days later. Stevens achieved the land concessions he desired, but his domineering attitude laid the foundation for future conflict. He conveniently overlooked the fact decentralized tribal leadership precluded any single chief from speaking for the entire tribe. Many groups impacted by the treaties of 1855 were not even represented at the council. Stevens added to Native grievances by allowing Euro-American settlement in ceded territory before the treaties were ratified by Congress, and resulting skirmishes with miners only escalated tensions. The death of Indian Agent A. J. Bolon in September 1855 at the hands of Yakama warriors angry over the murder of a Native family started the Yakama War, a period of hostility lasting until 1858. Skirmishes erupted across Washington as the United States Army and territorial volunteers clashed with Yakama warriors supported by tribes throughout the Columbia Basin. In 1856 a young Cornelius Hanford, founding father of the town of Hanford, took refuge in the Seattle blockhouse when Native tribes attacked the community. There were few hostilities in the vicinity of White Bluffs, but the Priest Rapids Valley provided a useful trade and travel route for soldiers and civilians throughout this period. The Army forbade Euro-American settlement in eastern Washington due to the potential danger, but lifted these restriction after 1858. In 1859, Congress finally ratified the Walla Walla Conference treaties, marking a traumatic period of displacement for many Native Americans. There were a few exceptions, however. Arguing they had never signed a treaty with the United States, the Wanapum Tribe quietly remained in the Priest Rapids Valley where they had resided for thousands of years. In the early 1940s the Army temporarily allowed Wanapum members to continue accessing traditional fishing grounds on the restricted Hanford Site. The rights and stipulations enumerated in the treaties of 1855 still impact Native life. Fishing and hunting on ceded land remain cherished rights. These treaties also codified arbitrary boundaries drawn by United States officials when delineating tribal identities. The Yakama Treaty confederated fourteen disparate tribal bands into the Yakama Nation while the Walla Walla, Cayuse, and Umatilla Treaty placed three separate tribes onto one reservation, laying the foundations for contemporary Native political identities in the Columbia Basin. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Treaty of 1855 Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea890d52849dd8b492f8ed957184e9e8.tif eb146478315e048a69420e3fd0602367 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource A 'Nuclear' Reaction Description An account of the resource Article about efforts of Tri-Cities groups to pressure the Department of Energy to keep the Fast Flux Test Facility open Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-Cities Business Journal Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/01/2001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J017 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c690f5abfa21ed1d3522965040b76b0.jpg c578262cf324e0102668a7233fcfb905 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Edward Milliman Description An account of the resource Items donated by Edward Milliman to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/817">Edward Milliman Oral History Interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Diners Find Doors Locked article Subject The topic of the resource Restaurants Description An account of the resource Clipping from Tri City Herald about Edward Milliman and a female companion being locked into a Black Angus restaurant when the staff, thinking the restaurant was empty, closed and locked the doors. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2E005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fac70b18b4f4088c231c7f9cacaa501d9.jpg 0407d43ea07ae724650d99cce19a9d75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World's Woes Blow out of Proportion, Rio Delegate says Description An account of the resource Wanda Munn speaking about her participation and views on the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro that took place June 3-14, 1992. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/1/1992 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7b308af1382ecc6d3c4628d385d8cf71.jpg eeaee423ab38748cdf0a1c7771c56618 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bush Appoints Richland Woman to Radiation Board Description An account of the resource Tri-City Herald article on Wanda Munn's appointment to the board that created the Energy Empoloyees Occupational Illness Compensation Program Act (EEOICPA) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J015 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fab7b64cf2e758d37bd858ec448704dd8.tif fa73d30908b4b7d540f2abc53f3688d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn's Belief in FFTF Hasn't Wavered Description An account of the resource Tri-City Herald article on Wanda Munn's FFTF reflections and accomplishments. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J014 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F63ea2c1df61b0b1d34638c5689079154.tif 97e5ee010a5f3c8c6e4f3298f1d8a98e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource FFTF Loses Restart Fight Description An account of the resource Article about the failure of Tri-Cities advocates to pressure for a restart of the Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J019 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89030745d14aa731cefc8e63846118b2.jpg 56571f17d0e7bbb4eb0066b3e6d0e5a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mother-Turned-Engineer Finds College a Good Investment Description An account of the resource Tri-City Herald article on Wanda Munn shortly after she started her position at Hanford. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tri-City Herald Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J022 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5816d2b3edb01b1572c10db92649642e.jpg 203e090700105461a88f0ef0801f622d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mark Jensen, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Mark Jensen Description An account of the resource Items donated by Mark Jensen to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/810">Mark Jensen Oral History Interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource N Reactor Certificate Description An account of the resource Certified N Reactor Control Operator certificate for M. A. Jensen from UNC Nuclear Industries Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource UNC Nuclear Industries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RD1D_2M005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1442d4d1ac2f2ac6cf15c488498fe84f.docx 03606ad65ac5f928ba0b88e174745842 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Richland Villager Description An account of the resource From issue no. 1: “Villagers Inc., a non-profit organization open to all residents of Richland and nearby tract homes in the area, was formed here last month for the purpose of ‘providing means for contributing to the welfare, recreation, comfort, entertainment, and education of all persons residing here.’ Operating under the direction of a temporary board of directors and officers, representing all the major groups in the village, Villagers, Inc., is already publishing a weekly newspaper (the first issue of which is in your hands)…” H. Hayden Rector is credited with the idea of a village-wide organization to provide newspaper, library, and other cultural/educational services to Richland. Donald I. Graham Jr., was named the temporary president of Villagers, Inc., in 1945. The newspaper had an initial weekly run as “The Villager” from March 8, 1945 September 13, 1945. The September 20 issue saw a name change to “The Richland Villager” and a larger newsprint format until publication ceased on March 2, 1950, with the final issue in vol V, no. 53. The collection at Hanford History Project goes until December 12, 1949. There is a break in publication and at some point in the 1950s the Richland Villager picked up publication. Hanford History Project Collections start at vol. VI, no. 42 on April 21, 1960 and proceed until May 31, 1963. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Villagers, Inc. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-1963 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4I https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F65cb09a5a6b58adc476993750444e64b.tif b67e4cab10325871589be38a5c46d7d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Certificate of Merit Subject The topic of the resource Machinery Description An account of the resource A Certificate of Merit presented to Jerry Tallent for his work on the Dismantling Machine Design Team. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westinghouse Energy & Advanced Technology Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983 Type The nature or genre of the resource Certificates Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 6/22/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe93b5c8682ef2176385c00e0fc883c73.tif b77c9a8b8a8f1758ca68a1b8d020d96e Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Physical Brochure Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 22 x 28 cm Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Future is Here Today! Description An account of the resource Westinghouse Hanford Company brochure for attracting new workers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westinghouse Hanford Company Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Westinghouse Hanford Company Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 1979 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource tiff Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Brochure Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Westinghouse Hanford Company - The Future is Here Today Date Available Date (often a range) that the resource became or will become available. 2022 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7fa2fa9272e7154a76ade182e3c80ef8.jpg 9b5c52a9a51b0bfabdd47dcac70121d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Honors From Professional Societies Description An account of the resource Westinghouse Hanford "Communicator" article on Wanda Munn winning the "Distinguished New Engineer" for 1985. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westingthouse Hanford Communicator Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/01/1985 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J023 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd30bb9d54cb59e35dcd11446b6917e40.pdf b31903ba325074476ad1b6c614389ac2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford White Bluffs Family Histories Subject The topic of the resource Orchards, Railroads, Homesteading, Fruit Irrigation, Ranches, Fruit trees, Clubs, Music, Natural gas, Sand, Seasons, Winter, Spring, Valleys, Pruning, Dams, War, Indigenous peoples, Hardware stores, Dance, Travel, Rivers, Covered wagons, Horses, Earthquakes, Railroad stations, Hotels, Dairy products, Lanterns, Radios, Settlements, Depressions, Regattas, Snow, Banks, Telephones, Dust storms, Newspapers, Clippings, Swimming, Swimming pools, Refrigerators, Recreation, Religious services, Telegraph, Theaters, History, Religious communities, Hospitals, Picnics, Safety, Summer, Canning & preserving, Engineers, Dogs, Trees, Agriculture, Farming, Schools, Churches, Nuclear power, Farm produce, Banks, Fires, Holidays Description An account of the resource These were handwritten and typed responses to a questionnaire sent out by the White Bluffs-Hanford Pioneer Association, for its 38th Anniversary or Reunion Booklet (sometime in the 1980’s). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Anderson, Anglin, Clark, Currens, Horton, Kilian, Leander, Macomber, Montgomery, Needham, O’Larey and Wheeler Families. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981-1983 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Reminiscing Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler Family History Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture, Orchards, Farming, Railroads, Homesteading, Schools, Fruit, Canning & preserving, Churches, Irrigation, Ranches, Trees, Fruit trees, Clubs, Religious communities, Seasons, Winter, Spring, Summer, Valleys, Pruning, Dams, War, Indigenous peoples, Travel, Rivers, History, Depressions, Nuclear power, Farm produce, Reunions Description An account of the resource These were handwritten and typed responses to a questionnaire sent out by the White Bluffs-Hanford Pioneer Association, for its 38th Anniversary or Reunion Booklet (sometime in the 1980’s). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wheeler Hastay, Helen Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Reminiscing https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0b065cfc3e4a2da9bb08d783a6d1d2e0.mp4 702c9f467a6277c1336d3c0af2daa4d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:24:39 Compression Type/rate of compression for moving image file (i.e. MPEG-4) H264 Director Name (or names) of the person who produced the video Ken Burns Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Watson Warriner - On War, Many Voices Subject The topic of the resource DuPont; Hanford Description An account of the resource A short documentary featuring Watson Warriner, a high-level DuPont employee during the Manhattan Project. From a personal email sent from Warriner to CREHST Curator Connie Estep - "It highlights the astounding construction statistics of HEW, the unusual method used to heat this spread out village [Richland?] and personal episodes involving my friend, the B Reactor's Construction Engineer, Robert Forrest Stewart!" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WHYY (Television station : Philadelphia, Pa.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available WHYY (Television station : Philadelphia, Pa.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Hanford History Project DOES NOT hold copyright to this resource. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2008.68 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3daf4ac842bdddc7ac0e11646b39a6d5.docx a94fe48282ca217b63ff6479fd460772 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Robberies in the towns of Hanford and White Bluffs, WA The White Bluffs Bank was robbed in March of 1922 by three men: John Burke, C.L. Potter and John Morrison<a title="">[1]</a>, and each were sentenced between 5 and 25 years in prison.<a title="">[2]</a> However, rumors persist that the bank was robbed multiple times in the few decades of its existence. In 1977, Virginia Kincaid Black, the daughter of White Bluffs bank manger W.J. Kincaid, gave an account of her fathers business which stated that one day she and the entire town witnessed two robbers getting apprehended by the police after attempting to rob the First National Bank of White Bluffs.<a title="">[3]</a> Kincaid said “it was quite a day for White Bluffs, to go out to go to the community hall…and the robbers went by.”<a title="">[4]</a> She also said that the robbers did not get very far, only making it to Yakima. However, no date is given for this robbery in the interview itself, and searches of the local newspapers and other literature of the time only turn up information on the first robbery in March of 1922. With all respect and gratitude towards her telling, Virginia Kincaid is likely mistaken about the second robbery, creating a narrative that has persisted for years and one that has ascended to the status of local legend. It is quite possible that the robbery she is referring to is the robbery of H.H. Boie’s dry goods and general store in November of 1915. H.H. Boie was a local businessman, operating the store, which opened March 17, 1910, after he came to the area in the summer of 1909<a title="">[5]</a>. Additionally, he also served as a freemason and his wife was very active in women’s clubs around the area for several years. The two robbers stole about one hundred dollars ($2,988.48 in 2023) from Boie’s safe, with the two men making the theft cleanly or having “left behind no clew” (sic) according to the Kennewick Courier.<a title="">[6]</a> They then retreated to a cabin about 40 miles away in nearby Beverly, before Sheriff C.E. Duffy and deputy James Shepherd arrested the two men, holding them in Prosser after they failed to provide satisfactory justification for their presence in the county<a title="">[7]</a>. Boie’s store was robbed again in a separate incident on the night of November 1st, 1932, in which the thieves stole between five and six hundred dollars worth of merchandise, according to Boie’s own estimation. The thieves broke in by breaking the padlock and picking the lock on the front door<a title="">[8]</a>. Some of the merchandise stolen included “cigarettes, cigars, gum, watches, rings, men’s and women’s clothing, underwear, gloves, women’s hats, groceries, etc.”<a title="">[9]</a> Boie didn’t discover that his store had been robbed until the following morning, after which officers were promptly notified and dispatched to look for the thieves. Boie’s store was also robbed a few months prior on July 29th, 1932. The robbers took a single .22 caliber revolver, after entering through a smashed window, and according to the White Bluffs Spokesman, “Nothing else has been missed”<a title="">[10]</a>, meaning the thieves were only after the weapon. No other robberies were reported for the rest of the time that Boie owned his store, which was until his death in April of 1942. H.H. Boie was survived by his wife and children, as evidenced by the announcement of his funeral service in May of 1942.<a title="">[11]</a> Boie’s legacy was one of service: he served as a chaplain in the freemasons in the months before his death, according to the Kennewick Courier-Reporter, in their reporting on the new officers within the freemasons.<a title="">[12]</a> That, in conjunction with owning his store for 31 years adds up to a record of a lifetime of service to the community. Bibliography “Budget Review Board of W.B. School Meets”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 7, 1942. “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. August 4, 1932. “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. March 18, 1937. “Liutenant Weihl Now Army Recruiting Officer”. The Kennewick Courier Reporter. January 22, 1942. Kincaid Black, Virginia. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614">http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614</a> Parker, Martha Berry. Tales Of Richland, White Bluffs and Hanford 1805-1943: Before The Atomic Reserve. Fairfield, Washington: Ye Galleon Press, 1979. “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. “To Try Allen Again”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 25, 1922. “Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. U.S. Inflation Calculator”. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/. April 26, 2023. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> “To Try Allen Again”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 25, 1922. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Martha Berry Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford 1805-1943: Before the Atomic Reserve (Fairfield, Washington:Ye Galleon Press, 1979), pp. 215 </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. March 18, 1937. </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. </div> <div> <a title="">[7]</a> “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. </div> <div> <a title="">[8]</a> “Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[9]</a> Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[10]</a> “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. August 4, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[11]</a> “Budget Review Board of W.B. School Meets”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 7, 1942. </div> <div> <a title="">[12]</a> “Liutenant Weihl Now Army Recruiting Officer”. The Kennewick Courier Reporter. January 22, 1942. </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The robberies of Hanford and White Bluffs, WA Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Written by Mark Schafer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d99616107b324f5ebd55f99fcb9176a.docx 2c0ebe3d135a3f865f0cdb7f6734f3c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Willard J. Kincaid Willard J. Kincaid is a fondly-remembered and prominent figure in the pre-Manhattan Project history of the Hanford area. A banker and community advocate, he helped develop the White Bluffs area into a thriving town while taking on several projects to better the community such as the Priest Rapids Irrigation District, where he served on the board and helped to secure the necessary funds to get the district up and running. Kincaid was also the proprietor and manager of the White Bluffs Bank, which served White Bluffs and its surrounding areas including Vernita and the Priest Rapids Valley. Kincaid worked for the White Bluffs Bank from the time he relocated to White Bluffs from Farmer, Washington in 1909, to the time he retired in the 1940s, when he subsequently relocated to Riverside, California.<a title="">[1]</a> During his many decades in White Bluffs, Kincaid and other businessmen built a golf course, started several commercial clubs and women’s clubs, and Kincaid was often the chair of many of these meetings.<a title="">[2]</a> In December of 1930, he was elected to the Priest Rapids Irrigation District’s board of trustees after having resigned his director’s position in September to legitimize the project and get it off the ground.<a title="">[3]</a> Irrigation projects in this part of the Priest Rapids Valley had a short and troubled history of fiscal insolvency and difficulty delivering water, starting with the Priest Rapids Irrigation and Power Company in 1905 and continuing until the eviction of residents in 1943.<a title="">[4]</a> Eventually the Priest Rapids Irrigation District did get off the ground and operated from 1920 to 1943, when it was condemned by the federal government in an effort to clear the land for use on the Manhattan Project<a title="">[5]</a>. However, due to various snags within the court system, the district was unable to operate for several years, according to Kincaid’s journal entries. During the Depression, which by Kincaid’s own admission started affecting him and his business in 1931, the financial situation was so dire that the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad Company had to float Kincaid and others the necessary money to keep the district in operation, which was also supplemented with money from the State Irrigation Revolving Fund to deepen the power canal, which would strengthen the power plant’s operations in the district<a title="">[6]</a>. The land itself was the subject of a lawsuit in 1950, where it was formally dissolved under eminent domain, after it was established that the United States of America had no further interest or use for the Priest Rapids site.<a title="">[7]</a> Elsewhere in local affairs, Kincaid had a hand in the construction of the Soldier Settlements. Construction on the settlement began in 1922, with he and others in the community appearing in front of the board of Regents at Washington State University, then known as Washington State College, successfully convincing the University to sell 840 acres of land to the committee on which Kincaid was a member<a title="">[8]</a>. Later, in 1925, the land settlement project was brought forth again, and again Kincaid made his case, urging a joint session of the legislature to adjust so that the land was suitable for such a settlement.<a title="">[9]</a> After leaving White Bluffs in the early 1940s Kincaid journeyed first up to Bellingham, where he worked in the business office of a lumber company, before going to Riverside, California. He also briefly came out of retirement to work as a bank cashier.<a title="">[10]</a> Kincaid died in 1970 at the age of 86. During his life, he was integral in White Bluffs’ slow growth as a small, but proud community, until its abrupt abandonment in 1943, when the US Government requisitioned the land around White Bluffs for use on the Manhattan Project. Bibliography Kincaid Black, Virginia. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614">http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614</a> Parker, Martha Berry. Tales Of Richland, White Bluffs and Hanford 1805-1943: Before The Atomic Reserve. Fairfield, Washington: Ye Galleon Press, 1979. “Prospect Bright For Enlargement Of Project” White Bluffs Spokesman. Dec. 29th, 1922. Vol 16, No. 22. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> White Bluffs spokesman. (White Bluffs, Wash.), 19 Sept. 1930. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress. <<a href="https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1930-09-19/ed-1/seq-1/">https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1930-09-19/ed-1/seq-1/</a>> </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Martha Berry Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford 1805-1943: Before the Atomic Reserve (Fairfield, Washington:Ye Galleon Press, 1979), pp. </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> United States v. Priest Rapids Irr. Dist, 175 F.2d 524 (9th Cir. 1949). Casetext. </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> <div> <a title="">[7]</a> The United States of America, appellant, v. Priest Rapids Irrigation District et. Al, respondents. No. 31547. En Banc. Supreme Court December 14, 1950. <a href="http://courts.mrsc.org/supreme/037wn2d/037wn2d0623.htm">http://courts.mrsc.org/supreme/037wn2d/037wn2d0623.htm</a> </div> <div> <a title="">[8]</a> White Bluffs spokesman. [vol. 16, no. 22] (White Bluffs, Wash.), 29 Dec. 1922. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress. <<a href="https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1922-12-29/ed-1/seq-1/">https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1922-12-29/ed-1/seq-1/</a>> </div> <div> <a title="">[9]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> <div> <a title="">[10]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Willard J. Kincaid Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Description An account of the resource Biography of Willard J. Kincaid, manager of the First Bank of White Bluffs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Written by Mark Schafer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9a1ab08b98894295f29681372e54f604.pdf 7fb9cf30ef840522e865eb9f5078aa2e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Architecture 542: Issues in Architecture Subject The topic of the resource Student work; Interdisciplinary study Description An account of the resource In Spring of 2024 Robert Franklin (History) and Phil Gruen (SDC) co-taught Architecture 542: Issues in Architecture as a Pullman graduate course. The students, 21 Architecture and 2 History, worked on a variety of projects, some historical and some contemporary, focused on the racial history of the East Pasco Community. Some of these projects support a grant with the National Park Service, "Digital Asset Management and Community Engagement to Enhance Understanding of Public Resources" with Robert Franklin as Principal Investigator. These grant-sponsored projects, when finalized, will be hosted on the National Park Service's Manhattan Project National Historical Park website and apps. A selection of these in-progress projects and assets created by the students is hosted in this collection. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Migrant Labor Memorial Description An account of the resource One of four student design projects imagining a future resource in East Pasco Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yuen Lei Lam, Sweta Waiba https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d06e719ac9b9555c4f738a405f3502e.jpg a2598d933b17d283d40105588e7d7ddf https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F66d4925a2f29afc5b4b3d23f95a80a5d.mp4 5b50c149f78db5cd96a35569232c6bb8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vanis Daniels Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Laura Arata: That’s the more comforting way to look at it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, are we ready? Man One: Yup. Arata: Oh, okay, so we're ready to get started. If we could just start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. Vanis Daniels: Vanis Daniels, V-A-N-I-S, D-A-N-I-E-L-S. And that’s the second. Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's November 14, 2013 and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could just start by having you tell us a little bit about when you first arrived at Hanford, who you came with, where you came from, that initial experience. Daniels: Oh, boy. I arrived, well, let's say I arrived in the Tri-Cities. My dad came here in '43 and worked here off and on until '51 when he moved the family here. Now, between the time he first came here in '43, he, my uncle, and cousin of ours helped pour the first mud that was poured to start the B Reactor. And then, after that, he worked here off and on until '51, when he brought the family out. And I was just a little—barely a teenager when I came here in '51. I was a sophomore in high school. I was supposed to graduate in 1954. At that time, you had to be 17-and-a-half years old in order to graduate from high school. Well, see, I was just turning 16. So then when I got ready to graduate, the vice principal came to me and he says, you can't graduate. I said, why can't I graduate? He says, you're not old enough. I said, oh? What's that got to do would graduation? He say, you're only 16. You have to be 17-and-a-half years old to graduate from high school. Well, it didn't make any sense to me, you know, if I got the grade point and all that and able to graduate. And he say, well, let me ask you a question. And I said, yes? He says, if you graduate, what are you going to do for the next year and a half? I said, I don't know. He say, you're not old enough to get a job. Nobody's going to hire you. He say, so you're just going to be whiling away your time. I said, well, I guess. He says, I'll tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. He say, you come back to school next year. He say, because you're not going to be doing anything. He say, you can come as many hours as you want to. If you can find you a little part time job or something like that, you're free to leave to go and work. And you don't have any restrictions on you, you know, as far as having to be there every day. I told him, okay. So that's what I did. But that's when I really started appreciating school. Because up until that point, I had been an A student, but where I came from--I came from Texas, by the way. I was born in a place called Terrell, Texas, but that's all I know about it. We moved to East Texas, which is a little place called Kildare, which is right out of Texarkana. I personally lived in Oklahoma during those eight or ten years that I was there, and then back to Texas and then to the Tri-Cities here. But being from the south, I went to an all-black school, segregated. And I didn't know anything about interacting with other races. And when I came here, nobody gave you a—I wouldn't call it a crash course, but I'd say interaction—it has a name for it—But anyway, they just threw you into the school with everyone else. And you had to learn to adjust. Well, that can be kind of hard. And it can also be kind of devastating. So my grade point dropped, but not to the point where I didn't graduate. And I see some kids right now that I went to school with that--I see them every once in a while--and if they hadn't been there to sort of support me, hold me up, I might would have fallen all the way through the crack. I might would have dropped out of school altogether. But they were—let's see, one retired from Franklin County. I don't know what the other three girls did as far as work go. But for some reason, they sort of took me under their wing, and I guess boost my morale or whatever you want to call it. And I was able to transition in and go on and finish school. After I finished school, I tried for ten years, 12 years really, to get a job at Hanford. And for some reason, they didn't want to hire me. I went to Seattle, tried to get a job at Boeing. They didn't want to hire me. I have, later in life since I retired, I learned why I didn't get a job at Hanford or Boeing, as far as that go. The people that I thought would be my biggest asset became my biggest enemy as far as getting a job. Because when you're asked for references and you put people down, I asked them if I could put them down, I let them know that I was putting them down for references and all this stuff. But the things that they put down there hindered me from getting a job rather than helping me get a job. And I learned this since I retired. But needless to say, I worked construction. I finally got a job--an interview--for Battelle. Meissinger was his name that interviewed me. And I must've gone out there for an interview the better part of a dozen times. And every time I'd go, he'd tell me, well, we don't have anything right now. In June of '66, he called me for an interview and I went out. And I'm working every day, working construction, when you leave work on construction, that's when your pay stop. I had a wife and a kid by then. And I went out one evening because he told me, he said, I'll stay here until 7 o'clock. You get of work, you come out. I told him, okay. So I got off, went home, took a shower, when out, talked with him. And I think he was about to tell me that he didn't have a position, ‘til I told him, I said, let me tell you something. I said, now, if you're not going to hire me, tell me now because I can't keep making arrangements, taking off work and all that stuff, coming out here just to sit and talk with you. I need a job. He says, just a minute. I don't know who--he left the room. He went and talked with someone. When he came back, he say, when can you come to work? I don't know. Whenever you want me to. He said, can you come Thursday? I told him yes. So I went out on Thursday. They interviewed me, gave me a permit, which was a red badge at the time, to go to work. I started as a janitor in the 3706 and 3707 building in the 300 Area. They transferred me from there to Two East and Two West. From Two East and Two West, they gave me a job in what was called Decon at the time. We did all of the glassware, all of the pigs--which is not a literal pig. It's a iron cast. You know, you can get the gallon, half gallon, or quarts. And it contains radioactive waste on the inside. The pig is just to shield the radiation. And we handled all of the hot water from the 300 Area. So I worked in there for two and a half years or so. And we took care of all the waste, did all the filter changing and everything in 300 Area. From there, I went to 100-F, to inhalation toxicology. And inhalation toxicology is just a matter of inhaling and exhaling is what it is. But I worked with the dogs, which at the time, Battelle was doing an experiment on the effect that cigarette smoke had on the human body. We worked with beagle dogs because at that time, they said that the closest thing to a human’s physique was the beagle. A grownup beagle weighs anywhere from 15 pounds to I think the heaviest one we had was probably 47 pounds--which is a wide range for a dog, but the human anatomy is also a wide range. 15-pound dog would be equivalent to 130-pound man. A 47-pound dog would be equivalent to 350-pound man. And every three months, we sacrificed a dog. And we did everything from blood, urine, feces, muscles, tissue, everything. We learned everything we could about cigarette smoke on what effect it would have on the dogs. The dogs smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. Now, we had dogs that got addicted to cigarettes. And they were just like humans, chain smoke if you allowed them to. Then you had dogs that could not stand smoke, period, and they would fight it all the way through. But you had to give them the equivalent of two packs of cigarettes a day. Okay, we had hamsters that we shammed with cigarette smoke. We also did plutonium on them to see what effect it would have on the organs, on the inside of the body. And I worked in there until I got kind of fed up with supervision at the time because we weren't getting the raises that we should as far as finances go. And when you got a family you got to take care of, $2 just don't get it. So meanwhile, I talked with supervision and they say they didn't have money for raises. But yet and still, they're turning back money every year to DOE, which was set aside for raises. They just weren't giving it out. Well, at that time, they had what they call merit raises. And I worked second shift. I very seldom saw my supervisor. And so I asked him, I say, if I very seldom see you, I must be doing a good job. Because otherwise, you should be here checking on me to see what I'm doing. I later learned that one of the guys that worked in my department had told him that he had to recheck all of my work every morning when he came in, to make sure that I was doing it right. Well, see, that wasn't his position. He's an employee like I am. The other thing is that if the supervisor had just used a little bit of common sense, he would have known the man was lying. Because when you pull samples, the minute you pull the sample, it starts to decay. Now you would have had some variation in my results and his results if he's going to run my sample the next morning to tell me that I'm not doing it right. And he's getting the same results I'm getting. Something's wrong with this picture. Well, anyway, as it turned out, I told him I couldn't work for them if that's the way there were going to do things. So I quit. The day I left from out there, I went home and I was sitting at home. And thinking, boy, I just quit my job. I got to get me a job. I went up to my sister's house and my brother-in-law was home. And I said, what are you doing home? He say, today is Veteran's Day. And also, it used to be Election Day, the 11th of November. And he say, I'm off. And so we sat round and talked for a few minutes. He say, would you be interested in leaving Hanford and going to work someplace else? He didn't know I'd quit. [LAUGHTER] I say, why, sure. He say, I got a guy you need to go and see. He told me where it was and everything. And the next day, I went looking for it. I drove right by the office and didn't find it. I went back and when he came in from work, I said, I--he say, you passed right by it. He says, it's a little building. I says, okay. The next day I went, the guy that became my supervisor wasn't in. But the secretary knew who I was when I got there. So I didn't get to see him that day. But the next day, they told me what time to come back. I went back, I walked in the door. He say, so you're looking for a job. I say, yes, I am. He says, come on back here in my office. So we went back to his office and, meanwhile, he's talking and asking me some questions. He's saying, I know your brother-in-law real well. He say you’re a heck of a nice guy. I say, he did? You say, yeah. When we get in the door and he closed the door, he say, you got the job if you want it. But I got to go through the motion of interviewing you. I says, okay. So I worked there at the Tank Farm in Pasco, which we distributed petroleum products, fertilizers, and fire retardant for forest fires. And I worked there just two or three months shy of 16 years. I went back to Hanford after that and went to work for Westinghouse. From there, Bechtel took over. I became supervisor. I worked in every area out there, decommissioning all of the buildings, the outer buildings, the 105s, tore down the 103s, basins. You name it, we did it. Took care of all the asbestos, worked in the asbestos department of the Tank Farm. They're talking about, now, where the tanks are leaking and all that stuff. We took care of all the above ground asbestos and stuff there for them. And I worked there until I retired in '97. Arata: What year was this that you quit your job, your first job with Battelle? Daniels: In '71. Arata: And so then, what year was it that you went back to work at Hanford for Westinghouse? Daniels: '89. Arata: Okay. Well, it sounds like you had quite an array of jobs between all those sites. Daniels: I've done some more besides that. [LAUGHTER] I owned my own restaurant for a little while in Spokane out at Airway Heights. I went in the service. I was at my basic training in Fort Ord, California. When I finished my advanced basic, I had run into a captain. I didn't know him, but I knew his family from Pasco. And I was talking to him and I had been home on leave and I had seen his mother. And I was telling him that she was doing fine, I'd just seen her and all that stuff. And when I finished my advanced basic, he was there and he ask me, he says, I got several places you can go if you want to, he said. Which ones do you want? I could've gone to a special forces in Chicago. I didn't think I wanted to go there. It get too cold there for me. [LAUGHTER] I could've gone to Presidio in San Francisco. I don't like San Francisco. I could've gone to Germany. I didn't want to go at that time. I could've gone to Fort Lawton, or I could've gone to Fort Lewis. I chose Fort Lewis. So I went there. And I liked Fort Lewis for some reason, although we were in the field most of the time. But I'm an outdoor person anyway. We got transferred from Fort Lewis to Germany. At the same time, the Vietnam War was breaking out. They took all of our officers and sent them to Vietnam. They took all of the personnel that had six months or less left to do, they extended them a year and sent them to Vietnam. All of them that had a year or better to do went to Vietnam. I had eight months left to do, so I didn't have to go. But they sent me from Germany back to Fort Lewis. And I trained the Milwaukee National Guard because they had activated them to take the 4th Division's place when they sent them to Vietnam. And I was sent back to Fort Lewis to train the Milwaukee National Guard. Once I got them trained, I got discharged. Three weeks after I got discharged, I got drafted again. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't have to go. I didn't have to go. For some reason, they decided they didn't want me. And those were some of the jobs I've had and some of the things I've done. Arata: Wow, there's about a million things I want to ask you about but we have to start somewhere. Daniels: Well-- Arata: I wonder if we can talk a little bit about kind of some of your early memories when you first arrived in the Tri-Cities area. And particularly, I'm interested in what your housing situation was like that and where you lived and what the community was like at that time. Daniels: Okay. When we first arrived in the Tri-Cities--coming from east Texas, where you got greenery all around you, you know, it's like the west side of the state of Washington--and coming here to the desert, you just sort of get a sickening feeling. [LAUGHTER] To tell you the truth. But if you were black, you lived on the east side in Pasco, where I still--well, I live northeast Pasco, now, but that's by choice. Anything west of Second and Lewis in Pasco, well, it wasn't off limits—it was off limits as far as houses go. The banks or anything would not loan blacks money to buy homes. The finance company—which, at the time, Fidelity Savings and Loans was the biggest one in the Tri-Cities--would loan you money to buy an old, raggedy car with interest rates so high. But that's beside the point. When we came, my dad tried to borrow money to buy a house. He couldn't get any. He found a house and the lady that owned the house sold it to him on a contract. And she let the bank, BV, whatever you call them, hmph. Anyway, he paid his payments to the bank. So, therefore, I guess they would be the proprietor or whatever you call them. And in the agreement was that if he was three days late with the payment, they could foreclose on it and take the house. And the house was less than $10,000 at the time. They never took it, of course. But then he would always make sure that it was paid on the date that it was supposed to, if he had to haul me out of school long enough for the bank to open to go pay it and then go on to school. But other than that, kids are kids. And kids aren't prejudiced. We all played together. We had baseball, we did Basketball, we had BB gun wars, which I don't know why some of us didn't get our eyes shot out. But we didn't. [LAUGHTER] And, let's see, you couldn't live in Kennewick if you were black. You didn't live in Richland because that was government and you had to work for the government in order to live out there. Well, up until probably '49, I think Mr. Newborn went to work out there in '49, which was the first black as far as know that ever worked in processing at Hanford. They only thing, blacks could work construction out there and help build it, but they couldn't help operate it, which—it still baffles me to this day, but that's just the way it was. Signs of the times, I guess you would call it and ignorance on a lot of people's part, as far as that go. Arata: So you graduated from high school, then, in Pasco. Daniels: Mm-hmm. Arata: Do you remember about how many students were in your high school and approximately how many of you were black versus the white students? Daniels: Okay. There were—let’s see—three? The high school was built for 600 kids, I think, 500 or 600 kids. And the day that they opened the doors, it was already overcrowded as far as that go. And that's the Pasco High School they got there now. I was the first graduating class out of that school. There were 107 or 108 of us in the graduating class. And I think there's probably 25 or 30 of us that I know of. In fact, I just saw seven or eight of them a couple of weeks ago. One of our classmates passed away. Arata: Do you recall any specific incidents, anything that stands out to you about your time. I'm curious, particularly about high school, because you've told us all these great stories about it--where race was an issue at Pasco High School when you were attending there. Daniels: Yes. There were maybe, at the most, 13 black kids when I went to high school. Most of them were underclassmen. There was a couple or three upperclassmen. We had football players, basketball players and stuff like that that were starters, what you might want to say were the star of the team. When they would have homecoming, the football players got to escort the queen and her court and all that stuff. Black kids couldn't do it. They wouldn't allow it. Some of the kids have since told me and another friend of mine that passed away that whenever one of them--because I was small, so I didn't play basketball or football--but anyway, if one of them turned out for football, they tried to do everything they could to hurt them. They didn't want them on the field with them. They didn't want to play with them. If any of the black kids got any type of award or anything, it was never given to them during assemblies or anything like that. If it was white kids, they made a big to-do of it and he got it on stage, came up before the whole school and got it. Black kids, they gave it to him as he was leaving school one evening or something like that. But this is faculty doing this. This is not the kids doing stuff like this. My vice principal and my shop teacher I ran into one day, oh, years after I graduated from school. They were hunting agates. And I stopped and was talking to them. And they actually apologized to me for some of the things that went on. The vice principal told me, he says, I am so sorry. He said, there are things that went on that I dare not tell or divulge--two reasons. First of all, I had a wife and kids that I had to support. And if I told them anything that was going to advance you, then I'd be looking for a job. He say, and I am sorry, but the community as a whole, well, it's like the council now, you know. They tell you what to do and you more or less jump and do it. Or like the government, which I think we all ought to vote everybody up there out, but that's beside the point. [LAUGHTER] It's just the way it was. And then I could understand their positions, because if you've got a wife and kids that you've got to support, you got to look out for them and you in the process of whatever you're trying to do. Now there's another way that it could have been done. But at the same time, they probably did what they knew to do. And that's one thing I never fault anyone for. If you don't know how to do something or to do something, then I don't fault you for not doing it. Now my brother, which you will interview next week, is probably the first black to have a job in a department store in the Tri-Cities, or at least in Pasco, I know. Well, he'll tell you about it. I won’t try to tell you about him. [LAUGHTER] But those are some of the things that we encountered. We walked every day from the east side of Pasco to Memorial Park, which was the only swimming pool in town within the last year. And at that time, there was probably 5,000 to 7,000 people in the whole of Pasco. They had one swimming pool. You got 80,000 to 100,000 people in Pasco now. You got one swimming pool. [LAUGHTER] Doesn't make any sense at all. But we walked over there every day to play baseball and go swimming if we wanted to go swimming. There weren't any park other than Sylvester Park and Memorial Park was the only two parks in town at the time. Later, they put the Boat Basin in down there at Pasco. But when we didn't have any place to play, other than going over there, then we started making our own baseball diamonds in vacant lots and things. And as the lots would be developed, they would—well, naturally, they'd run us out because there wasn't enough room for us to play. So one evening, we didn't have any place to play baseball and we wanted to play baseball. Two blocks from my house, where I grew up at was Kurtzman Park. Well, actually, it's a block and a half. But it was just a vacant field. And we took shovels, a bunch of my friends and me, and we went out there and we cleared all the tumbleweeds out, took the shovels and kind of levelled it off, and started playing baseball. A lady named Rebecca Heidelbar happened to come by there and see us. I don't know exactly what period of time, how long we'd been playing there. And she stopped and asked us if we had a park that we could play in. We told her no. We told her the only park was Memorial Park. She says, mm-hmm. And she talked to us for a minute. She left. Well, we later learned that she was an attorney, her husband was an attorney, her mom was an attorney, and her dad was an attorney. And that was Judge Horrigan and his wife, and then their daughter Rebecca. And then she had married an attorney. So she came back and asked us to get as many kids together as we could and she would meet with us. And she did. And she went to the courthouse, found out who the land belonged to where we were playing. She helped us to draft a letter to Mr. Kurtzman, which she found out lived in Seattle and ask him to donate enough land for us to have a baseball diamond. Well, it took him the better part of six months to answer us, but he get back to us because I suppose he had to look into the legal aspect of it. He got back to us and told us that he could not give any land to a special interest group or persons. He would donate six acres of land to the city if they named the park after him. That's how Kurtzman Park came into an existence. And there's a letter someplace that we wrote him with my name right on the top of it. But in the process of this, we got the land donated to us, the city of Pasco, as far as the city go. The only thing they did to get that park in there was they gave some used pipe that they had laying around out there at what we call the Navy Base, which is out by the airport. And the black parents went out there and broke all this pipe apart and everything, took it down to the park, actually took shovels--we took shovels--dug the trenches for the water system down there, put the pipe back together, put the water system in. The city did seed it. They did plant the trees. And they keep it up. But the Kurtzman building has a park right in the front of it that myself, my cousin, Mr. Louzel Johnson put up, free of charge, right where U-Haul is on Fourth Street and Pasco now, used to be a brick place where they made brick blocks, your cinder blocks. And they donated the blocks. We did the labor and put it up. At first, they named the park Candy Cane Park. And then we had to let them know that you can't do that. That park got to be named Kurtzman or else we don't have a place to play because that's the only way he would donate it, so that's the way we got that. Where Virgie Robinson's Elementary School is now, on Wehe and Lewis Street, used to be what we call the lizard hole because you get off and then had toad, frogs, and all that stuff down in there. And we'd we go down in there and get those frogs and stuff out of there and bust them because that's what we did. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Just to clarify this, I just have this great mental image in my head of this group of kids running around playing baseball. Was that integrated at all? Were most of you African Americans? A little better sense of-- Daniels: Well, what we did was, like I say, we lived on what we called the East side. There was a bunch of white kids that lived over there. Right on the north side of Lewis Street was enough white kids that they had two baseball teams. We lived on the south side of Lewis Street. We had one baseball team. And we played each other every day. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. We had a lot of fun. We played each other every day. In fact, one of the kids--I haven't seen him in years--but I was catching. And he threw a ball. He threw that ball so hard it--because I was using a board for the plate--and it hit that board and hit me right there. And I later had to have a hernia operation. [LAUGHTER] Arata: The scars of childhood. Daniels: Oh, yeah. We had a lot of fun. We played, like I say, we did BB wars and all that stuff again. I don't know why we don't have eyes out or something, but none of us ever did. Used to dig holes, tunnels. And I know you've probably read here in later years here, where kids are digging tunnels on the beach and all that stuff and then they collapse on them and they suffocate and stuff. I don't know why that didn't happen to us either because we'd dig as far as we could underground. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Wow, there's so many things I want to ask you about. If we could go back to your time at Hanford just a little bit. So you did have a bunch of different jobs over the broad course of time. Could you talk a little bit about sort of security, or secrecy, or safety, things like that? Did any of those things have a major impact? Daniels: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now security was at a point where that certain buildings, certain areas, you couldn't go in if you didn't have the clearance to go in them. One of the things that they especially emphasized was paperwork—security or classified documents and things. And documents was classified, like secret, top secret, and they had another one. But anyway, the way you knew which one was which was the border that was around it. Like, I think secret had a blue border. Top secret had a red border around it. Now, if you went in any building, and you saw that document laying anywhere unattended, you were to report it, stay right with that document until somebody of authority came and picked that document up. It wasn't supposed to be laying around any place. Again, if you didn't have the clearance, you weren't allowed in the buildings. They didn't allow you, even if you had the clearance, unless you had business in the building, then you wasn't supposed to go and fraternize and all that stuff, like, well, like first instance, my brother. The only time I went to see him or he came to see me was if there was an emergency at home and he got the message, he came and told me or vice versa. See, you just weren't allowed to do it. You were allowed in your work area to do your work and that's it. I worked all over. So I had a Q clearance. And I had a clearance for everything but the arms room. Now in the arms room, you needed a Q, but you also needed a chip. I didn't have the chip. I worked in the arms room, but I had to be escorted to the building. And then once I got to the building, I could go all around in the building, but I couldn't come out until my escort came and got me to bring me back out of the building. So there were security, and I can remember, for instance, where that DOE--which is what we call them now--actually right where Jackson's is now, down here on George Washington Way, it was a tavern. And DOE actually put people in there to watch and talk with people that worked at Hanford, got off work, stopped in to have a beer and stuff like that, just to see if they would divulge anything that was going on out there. So it was pretty hush-hush. You couldn't go past the wire barricade unless you had business out there. Again, like I say, there's not an area or a building I don't think I haven't been in. But that was because I worked all over the place. ‘Til this day, there are still areas out there that still classified. You know, they're declassifying it and cleaning it up. And I don't know how many acres they got now, but—no, I'll take that back. The only place I never did go was up on top of Rattlesnake. And I didn't want to go up there, because I'm afraid of snakes. And my brother-in-law helped put the telescope up there. And he say when they were digging and getting ready and there was plenty rattlesnakes. I said, I'm not going up there. And so I never went. [LAUGHTER] But any area out there that you can name, if you didn't have any business in there, then it wasn't a good idea to go. I can remember working, and you would look up--and they had environmentalists--and you'd look up and you'd see one way out across the desert someplace. And what in the world are they doing? Who are they? You had to go and get your supervisor or someone, or if you was in a vehicle, you went and you challenged that person. If they didn't have a badge, then they had to go with you. You held them some kind of way until they was identified, in some way or form. You just didn't walk around out there. When the Army was out there, they would do drills and stuff. And they would come in and several times—they finally had to kind of curtail that because we had guards out there that carried weapons. And some of them almost got shot, scaling over walls and going over fences and things like this. It was an exercise, but you going the wrong direction and in the wrong place without proper identification, so they had to sort of curtail that because you don't want anybody to get hurt. Arata: Right. I wonder, I know it's a little bit before your time working at Hanford, but JFK visited in 1963. Daniels: Well, that was before I started out there. I helped put the railroad spur in that he was supposed to come in on because he was supposed to come in by train. We finished the spur the day before he dedicated the steam plant the next day. It was so hot until I decided I wasn't going. So I didn't go. My brother took my mom and dad out to the dedication. Arata: Did you ever wish maybe you had gone, braved the heat? Daniels: Yeah, now I do. But back then, I didn't. I was sick of the heat. Arata: Sure. I guess when you think about overall and through all your different jobs, maybe you could talk a little bit about how Hanford was as a place to work overall and if there were sort of any aspects of your jobs that were more challenging or more rewarding than others? Anything that stands out? Daniels: Probably the worst part of working out at Hanford was the fact that when you worked inside the buildings, they had what we called recirculated air. You didn't get any fresh air. So it was always just sort of ho hum. You know, I always felt kind of drowsy all the time when I worked inside. Other than that, I think everything I did out there I really enjoyed. And I enjoyed being a supervisor. Although, if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have the job. But I had everything. All of the crafts worked for me. And that's electricians, crane operators, rigors, laborers, RCTs, the whole ball of wax. I was in charge of taking down all of the holding tanks, which, if you watch TV and you see this deal on there. This guy says he worked at Hanford for 21 years and now he's under this health care and they come out and visit him. If you watch it, you'll see three great big tanks in the back while that is on. In every area out there, they had those tanks. I took down all of those tanks in all of the areas out there and cleaned them enough that all of the metal was shipped to Japan. And that's the first time any metal, that I know of, was shipped of off the Hanford site to go anyplace except for the burial ground. But in the process of doing that, we started out doing it the way they that our RCT and everything said that we were supposed to do it. We cleared I don't know how many pounds and shipped them down here to Pasco. From Pasco, they went to Seattle and was put aboard ship. Well, before they left the Hanford area, they were surveyed to be cleaned. We shipped them down to the 1100 Area. When they left the 1100 Area, they were surveyed again. They shipped them down to Pasco. When they left Pasco to go to Seattle, they were surveyed again. When they got to Seattle, before they put them aboard ship, they were surveyed again. Got to Seattle, getting ready to put them on board ship, and they found I don't know, I'll say ten milligrams on one corner of one piece of metal. They stopped it right there. Everything that they hadn't loaded aboard ship they sent back to Kennewick. All of it. I was on my way home when it was on a Friday evening. And how they knew where I was, I have no idea, but they found me. I was in the Towne Crier down here in Richland. Guy came in. He say, I've been looking for you. I said, what do you want with me? He say, you got to go to work in the morning. I say, no, I don't. He say, yes, you do. He say, I got to have RCTs. You need to go and get ahold of Ray Jennings and get some riggers and O’Reilly, get some riggers, and crane operators, and all that stuff and we got to be out there are 8 o'clock in the morning. Says, oh. So anyway, we got it all done. I drove up out there probably at 7, 7:30 or so. We all gathered around and everything. Pretty soon, here come a guy that I've never seen before. He came in. He got out of the car, he came over, he spoke to everyone. He say, who's in charge of this project? I said, well, I guess I am. He said, well, I don't need you to guess. He say, either you or your aren't. I said, well, I'm in charge of this project. He said, come over here. He says, you haven't done anything wrong according to the RWP. He say, but we found some contamination and we can't have that. He say, so today, you are going to go step-by-step through everything that you did in order to release this metal. I told him, okay. So I call my RCTs, I get my riggers and everything. We get a panel out. And we lay it out for him. And you got to lay it out in feet, every square foot, you know, is a square. And then there's a certain amount of time that you should take to go over that square foot. And he watched us. He says, you're doing everything right if that's the way you did. I say, that's the way we did it. Well, I got the RCT head supervisor there. I got the rigger supervisor and everybody saying, well, this is the way we do it. He says, okay. He says, but how do I know—and I'll give you a for instance on what I'm talking about here—when you cut a piece of metal with a torch, you get something like the rim of this glass, where the metal actually rolls as it melts. He say, how do I know it's not contaminated underneath there? I say, well, I guess I really don't, except the instruments that we use is supposed to detect anything a quarter of an inch deep. He say, that's not good enough. He say, because some of that slag is better than a quarter of an inch. He said, have you ever heard of a Ludlum? Well, now, there's none of us out there that ever heard of a Ludlum, which is a radiation detector machine. We'd never heard of it. He says, well, that's what I want you to use. He was from Washington, DC, the Pentagon. [LAUGHTER] I said, uh-oh. But anyway, he says, I'm going back this afternoon. You will not survey or ship anymore metal off of here until I am satisfied that it's clean. I told him, okay. He went back to Washington, DC. This was like on a Wednesday. On a Monday morning, I had eight Ludlums. I'd never seen the things before. So I give them to my RCTs. And they had instruction with them. And the two kids live in Kennewick now, they read the instructions and everything, tried them out and everything. And then they became the instructors to teach other people how to use the Ludlum. Battelle has a program where that they have to certify all of the machines that are used on the Hanford site. Well, they didn't get their hands on these. So I'm working. I get a call from Battelle. And they tell me, say, Vanis, I understand you've got some machines out there that didn't come through us. I said, I don't know who they came through. But I said, they sent them to me. I said, so I got them. And I'm using them. You can't use them because they're not certified. I say, that's not what I was told. So I tell them exactly what I was told, who told me, where I got them from and everything. You got to bring them in here. I said, nope. I'm not bringing them in there. I say, I was told by the head from Washington, DC what to do. And that's what I'm going to do. Anyway, I had to go down and sit on their lap and talk with them, get them to understand that, hey, you can buck whoever you want to up there. I'm not going to do it. Well, anyway, they finally got it all squared away that they weren't going to get these machines and that I was going to use them because they had been overridden by Washington, DC. So then I got to get all that metal and everything cleared and it went to Japan. And one of things I can remember he told me before he left that evening, he say, you're doing a good job. But the thing I don't want is for one of my grandkids to get contaminated sitting up working on a computer where you have sent some contaminated metal and they made computers out of and sent it back over here. That was an interesting one. [LAUGHTER] Arata: I can imagine. And what year would that have been? Daniels: That would've been in '95 or '96. Arata: Okay. Well, I wonder if we could just wrap up. Obviously, the Cold War in this time period, kind of a very conflicted legacy. Most of my students were not alive during that time. So they have sort of a limited window into it. So I wonder of you could just tell us a little bit about, in your experience, living through and working at Hanford during much of this time period of the Cold War, just maybe what changed over the course of time, if anything in terms of—like I know the NAACP eventually came to Hanford at did some good work later on. Sort of what that experience was of living through that change. Daniels: Okay, one of the things that happened was in '68, I believe it was, about that time anyway, I was working in the 325 Building and Decon at the time. And I saw this gentleman, oh, for the better part of a week walking around. In the building, he'd always nod his head, you know, speak. I'd speak, go on about my work. Whatever he was doing, he'd go on about it too. My supervisor, one morning, told me, he stays, I need you to stay here, answer the phone. He say, take any work orders that come in. He say, and if you need to go and estimate a job, you know how to do it, go do it. I got to go to a meeting. I'll be back. I says, okay. So he went on to the meeting. And when he came back, he says, I told you something was going to happen. He say, heads are going to roll around here. I said, what are you talking about? He says, remember, they got all these blacks out here. I say, yeah. He say, 90% of them are janitors. I say, yes. He say, that guy that's been walking around in this building? I say, yes? He say, he's head of DoE. He's from Washington. And he's been observing all of the jobs, the people that are doing the jobs, the people that are in the jobs, the education that the people have, and the whole ball of wax. And he just told us that we got three weeks to start transferring some of these people into some of these jobs. He say, because you can't tell me you got that many black people out here and don't none of them have enough sense to do anything but janitorial work. He say, I know better. [LAUGHTER] So that's when they started diversifying and sending people to all different jobs and all that stuff. Because before then, most of them were janitors, I think. I got a cousin that worked in a lab, one supervisor, one operator—that was about it. Everybody else mostly were janitors. But, again, see, you're looking at an area when they start hiring blacks out there. Most of them had been here since the early '40s. They had worked construction out there and all that stuff. But none of them had ever been able to get a job in what I call production. They hired them all. They hired them as janitors. They were already elderly people. And when I say elderly, some of them may have been as young as in their 40s. But most of them only worked ten, 12 years, and they retired. They were that old. Some of them didn't want to do anything else except janitorial work. A whole bunch of the younger people actually went on and became Teamsters and electricians and pipefitters and all that stuff. But that was the first time that a lot of the blacks had ever had a steady job in their life. And they, in the run of a year, they probably made is much or more money than they ever made in their life because they had a steady job. You got a paycheck 52 weeks to the year, with a vacation, which they had never had before. So they didn't want to branch out per se, a lot of them didn't, because I know some of the people that I worked with, many have gotten in 12 years out there and they retired. They just weren't interested in killing the world at their age. They just weren't interested in it. We first went to hot standby they call it. In other words, hot standby is when you redo everything, you rebuild everything. You get it ready to go if you need to go back into production. Then they go from what they call hot standby they downgraded it to just cold standby. When they did that, then after about six months we went in, we start draining everything. This is all the oils, all the antifreeze if you had antifreeze, whatever you had that was liquid, we start draining all this stuff out of all the equipment and everything. You started taking out all the electrical stuff. And they had spent millions and millions and millions of dollars upgrading all this stuff. You've got engines, diesel engines just in case you had a nuclear attack or something to that effect that once the electricity went off, the engines kicked off and kept the reactors running. One of those engines is longer than this building is this way, and they rebuilt them all. And the only time they started, they just started them up enough to make sure that they were working and they shut them off. We drained everything out of all those engines, and then they took them out, and when I left they were still in the buildings. I think they've since sold them to someone, but that means that you can't start it back up. If you want to, you've got to put all new stuff in. Well, in 1943, when they built the B Reactor, when they started it, 13 months it was online. Try to build a reactor today. 40 years from now it won't be online. Because the government took and they put all of these entities into place. And it's a safety precaution as far as that go. But see they didn't put any restrictions on these people. And that's just the ecology, ERDA, all those people, they don't have any restrictions on them. And you get all of these in--if I hit you on the toe, don't holler ouch too hard--but young people are the worst in the bunch because the only thing they know is what they read in a book. And the book is just a guideline for you to use this up here, because there's no two things out there that's ever going to be the same. And DoE put young people in positions out here to tell people that have been working and doing this job for 30 and 40 years and they tell them what to do instead of coming out there asking some questions and trying to learn? Because the book don't tell you nothing. Do you cook? Arata: I do. Daniels: Okay. You go get a recipe, you fix the food exactly like the recipe says. It's not always good to you. But now if you are allowed to put your flair into it, then it's good, right? That's the same thing with a life. That's just the way life is. You've got to learn, and you do it by trial and error. And they don't have any business out there. I had a guy, 27 years old or roughly there, shut one of my jobs down. He did not ask the questions that he should ask. He just saw it and shut it down. You're not going to do this and you're not going to do that. Well, when you're talking to a rigger that's been rigging for 40 years, he know when he's in danger and when he's not. He didn't live that long by being stupid. Well anyway, it all comes down to not putting a barrier around where he was working. Well, he's got to be able to see the rigger down here, up here, and then he signals the crane operator. Well, if you can't see the rigger down in that hole, you can't signal the crane operator. And he shut my job down because this guy didn't have a barrier between him and the hole where he could look down in there and see the rigger. They shut it down. I had to go to a critique. And we talked about it and the rigger told him, he says, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. He said, you just shut a job down, he say, and you've got all these suits sitting up in here and making all this money and the job's still not done. But those are the things you have put up with, too. Arata: Absolutely. Well, sir, is there anything else that I haven't asked you about, any final stories you'd like to share? Daniels: I don't know. Maybe he got something he want to ask me. You got anything you want to ask me? I am just here. Just ask me whatever you want to ask me, and if I know, I'll tell you. If I don't, I'll say I don't know. Arata: I guess my one sort of follow-up question, we've heard from a couple other interviewees about having some definite run-ins with the KKK. Did you ever have any experience with the KKK in the area? Daniels: No, I never did. Now I do have a friend in Kennewick that tells me that they used to have meetings right up here on Jump-Off Joe. But no, I never ran into any. If I did, I didn't know who they were. Never had that experience, because we still might be fighting if I had. [LAUGHTER] Arata: I think that covers all my questions. I want to thank you so much for coming and sharing your stories and experiences with us. I really appreciate it. Daniels: My brother, he's got probably--let's see, I worked out there about 15 years all total and I think he's got 36 or 37 or 38, so he can probably tell you a lot more than me. Arata: We'll get him next week. We're looking forward to it. Well, thank you so much, Vanis. Daniels: Okay. You're welcome. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:20:42 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100-F 3706 Building 3707 Building 200 East 200 West B Reactor 1100 Area 325 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1966-1971 1989-1997 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Heidlebar, Rebecca Johnson, Louzel Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 230 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vanis Daniels Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Nuclear reactors Radioactive decontamination Nuclear facilities Baseball Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/14/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-04: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Description An account of the resource Vanis Daniels moved to Pasco, Washington in 1951 as a teenager and began working on the Hanford Site in 1966. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 1100 Area 300 Area 3706 Building 3707 Building B Reactor BU reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F866f4dc1ee97127bc030dbc0e1cda11c.jpg 369953453c2a6c4d1d213754904a555b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1fa70e25a8e3aeba0cc6e6bcb13dfa80.mp4 3dbf13537584bbe0cb93002f5c3ea15d Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Barnett Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:21 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 225 B Encapsulation Building B Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-1995 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin and I’m conducting an oral history interview with Daniel Barnett on July 13th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Daniel Barnett about his experiences growing up in Richland and working at the Hanford site. So the best place to start, I think, is the beginning. So why don’t you tell me where you were born and what year. Daniel Barnett: I was born in Aberdeen, Washington in 1938—August 13th. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: And when the war started, my dad was working for the Harbor Patrol in Seattle as a patrolman. He heard that they were hiring over here, so he came over here and they hired him almost instantly because he already had the security clearance and everything. Franklin: Ah. Barnett: So he called my mom and told her that he had a job over here and to get herself packed, because he was gonna get her. But when she moved here, she couldn’t move to Richland. It wasn’t even on the map at that time. They took it off the map and everything. She had to move to Prosser. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: And later on when they finally got a prefab built, we moved into a prefab at 1011 Sanford. Franklin: Where was your father from? Was he from Washington? Barnett: He was from Oregon. All my family is from Oregon except for me. My dad said he couldn’t get across the border fast enough. Franklin: So being from—what drew him to Hanford? Was it the pay? Barnett: I think so. Well, he was originally—he worked at a plywood plant, then he went to work for Harbor Patrol. He had asthma, which the wet climate apparently irritated. So he had a chance to get over here, so he moved over here. Franklin: Okay. So the climate played a— Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: --big factor and wanted the dry and the sunshine. Barnett: Well, probably the pay, too, because the pay was good for those times. Franklin: Right. And how long did your family live in Prosser before you moved? Barnett: We were there about a year, I think. I don’t remember truthfully—I was only about five when we moved there. And I was there probably about a year. I just vaguely remember moving to Prosser. Franklin: Right. Okay. And you moved—so you came over in 1944— Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: --right? And so you would have moved to Richland in 1944? About there? Barnett: Oh—I think we actually—Dad came over, I think in ’43. A year later, in ’44 we moved over. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: Because I remember ’45 when they announced the war—dropping the bomb on Japan, and Mom told Dad when he come home, I know what you’ve been guarding! [LAUGHTER] Because he didn’t even know what he was guarding at the time. Franklin: Right. Wow. Did your dad talk about his work much? Or maybe [INAUDIBLE] Barnett: He worked as a patrolman until they sold the town and then he became a painter. Franklin: A painter? Barnett: Yeah, he was an artist so then he became a painter and painted the houses and the buildings in Richland. Because when the government owned Richland, if you had a paint job needed done on the house, you called them and they come in and painted it. You didn’t hire somebody from a company to paint it. The government did it. Franklin: And was he a patrolman onsite the entire time until they sold the town? Barnett: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Was he assigned to a specific area, or--? Barnett: No, just general patrol. He talked about patrolling the fences, taking their Jeeps and going down the length of the fences and checking them out, and all that sort of stuff. But just a general patrolman, not any special area. Franklin: Okay. And you said that your—what did your mother do when she first got here? Barnett: Oh, she was just a housewife. She eventually went to work as a waitress. And then finally she got on to work at Hanford. She worked with Battelle for about 29 years as a lab tech. Franklin: Oh, wow. Do you know which lab she worked in? Barnett: Well, she did—where they did testing on the animals. Though at that time they were testing marijuana on chimpanzees and different types of animals. She did the test work on the meat from the animals. Franklin: Oh, wow. Barnett: So I don’t know exactly—it was—again, probably wasn’t supposed to be told, so she didn’t say much about it. Franklin: Did she have any schooling beyond— Barnett: Just high school. Franklin: Just high school. And what about your father, did he--? Barnett: He was just high school. Franklin: Just high school as well. Where did your mother waitress at? Barnett: Well, the first place she had was O’Malley’s Drug Store which now is a—what do you call it? A Tojo Gym? Where they teach different martial arts? Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: It’s down on Williams, right off of Williams. That’s what it is now. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: O’Malley’s Drug Store eventually closed, moved up to Kadlec. And a lady bought it from him, and now she’s down there on George Washington Way. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: And right by O’Malley’s Drug Store used to be a Mayfair market. So I sold newspapers out at the lunch halls at Hanford. Sold—well, I don’t remember—but I think it was the Columbia Basin News to start out, because that was the first newspaper of the Tri-Cities, was the Columbia Basin News. Then they bought them out and became the Tri-City Herald. But I remember selling—give you an idea, you can figure out how much time, because I remember one of the headlines was—one of the union leaders had been arrested by the government. And I don’t even remember who it was, it’s been so long ago. But I remember that was one of the headlines of one of the newspapers. Franklin: What about—do you remember the Richland Villager at all? That was a local paper. Barnett: Yeah, but it wasn’t very much. It was very small. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: I delivered the Seattle P-I. Franklin: Seattle P-I? Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. And you said your mother started waitressing at Malley? At O’Malley’s or Malley’s? Barnett: At O’Malley’s. Franklin: O’Malley’s. And then did she waitress anywhere else in Richland? Barnett: Not that I know of. From there she went out to Hanford. Franklin: And that was when pharmacies or drug stores as we know them now, they used to have lunch counters. Barnett: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Right. And so they would go there and they were more of like a café-slash-pharmacy. Barnett: Yeah. The one up on Thayer, I think it was Densow’s at that time. That had a heyday lunch counter in it, coffee shop. It closed up and now I think it’s just pharmacy. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Barnett: But where the south end—what do you call it? You know when you get down here, you sit and try to remember things and you get kind of jumbled up—Salvation Army building is now on Thayer was originally the Mayfair Market. Franklin: Okay. And what did they sell there? Barnett: Well, that was the grocery store. Franklin: Grocery store, okay. Do you remember—so you said you moved into—what was the address on Sanford? Barnett: 1011 Sanford. Franklin: And do you remember what kind of prefabricated house it was? Barnett: It was three-bedroom. Franklin: Three-bedroom prefab, okay. Barnett: No, I think it was two-bedroom, because my sister was just a little baby then. Franklin: Okay. And did you share a room with your sister? Barnett: Probably with my brother. Franklin: Oh, so how many siblings— Barnett: Had three kids. I had an older brother. We were about five years apart. Franklin: Oh, okay. So an older brother, you, and then a younger sister. Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: And then how long did you live at 1011 Sanford? Barnett: I don’t really remember, but it must have been three or four years, because as soon as they got the A houses built, we had a chance to move into one. And we moved immediately to one. Because we had three kids, and a prefab’s kind of tight for three kids. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. I live in a two-bedroom prefab. And it’s—with just my wife, and it’s pretty— Barnett: Well you know why they’re called prefabs. Franklin: Tell me. Barnett: They were built by a company, brought in in two sections and then put together. They were prefabricated. Franklin: Yeah, the prefabricated engineering company out of Portland. Barnett: And nobody could figure out why they put that little square door in the back other than to throw the garbage out it. I don’t know—have you ever heard of Dupus Boomer? Franklin: Yes. Barnett: He made some cartoons about that backdoor. Franklin: Right, and that the rooves had a tendency to fly away. Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: And they had to put— Barnett: Well, in 1955, they did. They had two of them blow off. Franklin: Yeah, those are great cartoons. Barnett: Like “Pa wants a bathtub.” [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So tell me a little more about growing up in Richland. Which schools did you go to? Barnett: Well, the first school I went was Carmichael. And that was probably a mile-and-a-half away. We walked to school. Nobody thought anything about it. There wasn’t any buses. There was a bus system in Richland, but it was run by the government. It was a little old bus that you could pick up in two places in Richland to go downtown and go to a movie and come back. But no buses hauled you to school. There was high school buses that hauled people. They picked them up in the Horse Heaven Hills on farms and brought them to Hanford—I mean to Col High—it’s Hanford now. But, no, I walked to school real regular, didn’t think about it, nobody had any panic about walking to school. Everybody did it because it’s normal. Franklin: And do you remember—so you would have been going to—was it Carmichael—growing up right in the early Cold War. What do you remember about civil defense? Duck-and-cover, air raids. Barnett: I don’t remember doing that. Franklin: Really? Barnett: I don’t know whether we did or not, but I don’t remember doing that. Franklin: Do you remember knowing what was being made at Hanford? Did you ever have any fear—how real did the Cold War seem to you? Barnett: Well, the Cold War affected me quite a bit because I was in eight years during the Cold War—in the Air Force. Franklin: Right. Barnett: The security was a lot tighter. I mean, there was—you couldn’t go out to Hanford without having your security badge checked. Now you can drive clear to the Area and before you go in the Area have your badge checked. Franklin: Right. Barnett: But then, there was a badge check when you got on the buses, the badge check, when you got out to your area, and then again they checked your badges when you left the area. Franklin: Right. Barnett: So it was—the security was real tight. Franklin: Mm-hmm. But what about when you were growing up, when you were a kid in school? Did you ever have any special fear or pride in what was being made at Hanford? Barnett: Nope. It was—like I said, nobody knew what they were doing out there until they dropped the bomb. Then they found out they’d been protecting part of the atomic bomb. Franklin: Right. Barnett: But I had no fears about it. I went down the irrigation ditch—there used to be an irrigation ditch that ran through town that started—it had two, three ponds on Wellsian Way that were the settling ponds for Richland’s water system. And we used to go there and swim in them. One of the ponds they eventually made a juvenile fishing pond. And the irrigation ditch runs from there, clear down to where the hospital is, down in front of the hospital, several ponds down through the hospital and then under—well, through the Uptown district, one of them went through the Uptown district, and one went to the Columbia River. And wasn’t until ’48 that they finally put a pump in there, because in ’48 when they built the dam—they built the dike, rather—the irrigation ditches plugged up. So they had to put up a pump station in so they could pump the water irrigation ditch up into the river. We used to fish in that. We used to go down there and slide down—slide over where the pump was, because it was all slick and slimy. We’d put on an old pair of jeans and go down there and slide into the water. I mean, that’s things kids then. Nowadays they wouldn’t even think about it. My mother told me when I could swim 25 feet, I could go in the river by myself. Mainly because you didn’t go to the river too often in the winter; you went in the summer. And there’s not a place in the Yakima, if you can swim 25 feet, you can’t get back to the shore. So I spent all my—most weekends and spare time at the Yakima River playing around. Franklin: Wow. What about—maybe you could talk a little bit about the growth of Richland and kind of the building of some of the major hallmarks, like the Uptown and the— Barnett: Well, the Uptown was built—the rest of it closed up, but originally the Uptown—as you come into Uptown off to the left—that was a big theater. And we used to have a big matinee. The Spudnut’s shop has always been there. I can remember going to the movie on a Saturday and the lineup for the movie—I think it was 20 cents for a movie then. But it was clear past the Spudnut shop. We used to watch the owner there making the Spudnuts while we were waiting to get into the movies. Franklin: Has that been in its same location-- Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: --in the mall? Barnett: Spudnut’s has been there ever since it started. They originally were out there in Kennewick. If you go in there and pick up their menu, they have a little story about where they started. They started out there in the Wye. Franklin: That’s great. And what else about it? Because Richland kind of developed out towards-- Barnett: Well, Newberry’s was on the other end of the Uptown district. That was kind of a department store type. I think the only one I saw was about 15 years ago, and that was in the Dalles, Oregon. I don’t even know if they exist anymore. The downtown district, every year we had different contests for the kids. They had marble shooting contests and bubblegum blowing contests—all kind of contests to keep the kids’ interest. Franklin: Right. Barnett: At that time, the—what is it? The Allied Arts, or was that in the Atomic Frontier Days? Franklin: Can you talk maybe a little bit about the Atomic Frontier—do you remember going to the parades? Barnett: Yeah. They had a lot of the old western movie stars come to the Atomic Frontier Days. Franklin: Like—do you remember any names in particular? Barnett: No, I don’t. Like I say, a kid doesn’t retain names like that. He hears them and doesn’t retain them. But my dad, apparently, knew a couple of them, so he visited with them. It started out as just a celebration of Hanford and stuff. And then it worked into the Allied Arts show. Franklin: Okay. And do you remember any particulars of those celebrations, like the parade—the floats, or— Barnett: Well, there wasn’t any parade. There wasn’t any parade, and where Howard Amon Park is, there used to be a swimming pool. You know where it makes a turnaround? Well, there off to the right there used to be a swimming pool. And right now, they still got the old children’s swimming pool there, but then there was a regular swimming pool in the water. And in 1948 when the big flood came, it filled up full of water and they ended up breaking it up and burying it and building the Howard Prout pool. But we used to go down there and swim just about every day. And we’d go to the other end of the park and pick peaches, because it used to be a peach orchard. Because there were orchards all over town. Where Jason Lee was—the old Jason Lee—that was a cherry orchard. Where Densow is, that was a cherry orchard. Carmichael had an orchard. There was orchards all over town. Because this was an agriculture district at the time the government bought it and moved in. Franklin: Were you in any clubs or— Barnett: I was a boy scouts. Franklin: --organizations? Boy Scouts? Barnett: Yeah. We had—one that sticks in my mind the most was we had one of our young scouts drowned at the Uptown. That’s the one I mentioned. He went on an inner tube, fell in the water and drowned. That was in ’48. And actually, the water where the hospital was, the irrigation ditch you got there, that was 15-foot deep at that time. Franklin: Wow. Barnett: That backed up so much, they—that’s when they built what they called the America Mile, the dike. They called all the earthmovers from Hanford out to Richland to build that dike. Because when they started, the water was lapping over the edge to go into the houses. And they poured that thing in about 24 hours. Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. Barnett: Now, the George Washington Way was closed to all civilian traffic, and these great big earthmovers were just going down the road, 30, 40 miles an hour. Franklin: Wow. What other kinds of activities did you do in Boy Scouts? Barnett: Oh, built models. Car models. You whittle them out, put the wheels on them, all that, have races with them. Went on trips. Just normal Boy Scout stuff. Got a little more sophisticated, but just the normal Boy Scout stuff then. Franklin: Right. And so after you went to Carmichael, did you then go to Richland High? Barnett: Col High. Franklin: Col High? Barnett: [LAUGHTER] It was Col High then. Franklin: Oh. Barnett: They changed the name because there was a Col High downstream on the Columbia that had had the name before Richland High was called Col High. So they changed it to Richland High instead of Col High. Franklin: Oh. But was the mascot always still the— Barnett: All the bomber. Franklin: --bombers? Okay. So the Col High Bombers? Barnett: Yup. Franklin: Okay. And when did you graduate high school? Barnett: 1957. Franklin: And then what did you do? Barnett: I went in the Air Force. I think about two months after I got out and I went in the Air Force. I already spent 27 months in the National Guards. I got in the National Guards when I was 16, and when I went to sign up for the Air Force, the squadron commander of the National Guards was—he got shook up because he enlisted me when I was 16. [LAUGHTER] So they changed the date on my discharge papers from the National Guards. So according to my discharge papers from the National Guards, I’m 78 right now. Franklin: Oh. Barnett: Those days, they did things like that, nobody thought anything about it. Franklin: Wow, yeah. Barnett: Because if you were warm they took you into the military then. Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER] And what did you—describe your time in the Air Force. Barnett: Well, of course there was basic training. The first place I went was Westover, Massachusetts—that’s Springfield, Massachusetts. And that was a total culture shock for me, because I grew up in a comparatively small city. And Springfield then had over 100,000 people in it. Franklin: Right, and I guess, too, at this point you would have completely grown up when Richland was a government— Barnett: Yup. Franklin: --still was all government space. Barnett: Yup, they sold it while I was in the Air Force. Franklin: Can—actually I guess maybe we can back up a little bit. What strikes you, maybe looking back on that, or— Barnett: I watched them build the Alphabet Houses. And there wasn’t one or two people on the houses; there was five or six building these houses. And they seemed to go up overnight. One of the things that I don’t know is fact or not, but knowing the government it probably was—is they were supposed to build half basements for a coal fire furnace, a coal bin, and two tubs, and place for a washing machine. The contractors screwed up on some of them and built a full basement. And the government found out about it and made them go back in and seal half the basement with dirt. [LAUGHTER] Typical government. Franklin: Were your—granted you were a kid at this point, but was your sense—were people happy— Barnett: Oh yeah! Franklin: living in a government-controlled and -owned town? Barnett: Nobody thought anything about it. There was very little crime. Because at that time, there was only about two, three ways to get out of Richland. So there was nobody causing any big deal. And if you got in a whole bunch of trouble—you didn’t live in Richland unless you worked at Hanford. And if your kids got into too much trouble, they told the parents, you calm them down or go find another job. So it was stopped. Franklin: Right. Did you—was Richland mostly a white community at that time? Right? Were there any other— Barnett: Yeah, there was—one, I think there was only one black community in Richland—Norris Brown. And I think they lived in Putnam. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: I remember we had a basketball game in Sunnyside. And Sunnyside wasn’t gonna let them play on their court. And we told them, fine, we’ll just get up and leave. So we all started to get up and leave and they finally broke it and gave in and let them play on the basketball court. Franklin: How did you know this family? Did you go to school together? Barnett: Yeah, I went to school with them. Franklin: Oh okay, and did you play basketball? Barnett: No! I’m not a sports—I had my first surgery on my knee when I was about 13, so— Franklin: Oh, wow. Barnett: I’ve never played any sports. My sporting then was hunting and fishing. Franklin: But you kind of heard about this story? Barnett: Oh, yeah. We all know them. Went to basketball games. Then there was sock hops and at noon they taught dancing in the lunchrooms for kids that wanted to learn how to dance. Franklin: So do you know what the patriarch of that family would have done at Hanford to be able to earn a place at Hanford? Because mostly from what I’ve heard, mostly African Americans had to live in Pasco. Barnett: Yeah, because they wouldn’t let them live in Richland—I mean Kennewick. Franklin: Yeah, in Kennewick. So how did—do you know any particulars as to how that family was able to live in Richland? Barnett: I think it’s just that the government—that they had to be equal on them, and they just hired them and they went to work out there. I don’t know any particulars on it, but that’s basic what it was. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: They were in a government town, and there was no way that anybody could refuse—and there was nobody that complained about it. Franklin: Right. Barnett: Again, the government controlled it. They said, if you don’t like it, goodbye. Franklin: Right. And they would—they called the government for pretty much anything you needed on the house, right? For coal? Barnett: Right. Lightbulbs, chains, coal. But coal was delivered once a—I don’t know whether it was once a month or once a week. But coal was automatically delivered. And like I say, if there was anything major done, you called the housing department. They came in and fixed it. Franklin: I think sometimes for outsiders looking in, it’s kind of striking to hear about the government completely owning this town and controlling the lives of the people and having that much control on people’s freedoms and responsibility. But from the people I’ve talked to who grow up in Richland, they have very fond memories of it. Barnett: Yeah, there was no restrictions on the normal freedoms. There was restriction on if your kids got into trouble, because, like I said, the patrol would go up to the person that had the kids that were causing the problem and said you either straighten your kids out or you go and find another job. Which, to me, made common sense. And so it was actually pretty decent. Franklin: Did you ever get any sense from your parents that they felt, maybe, restricted, not being able to own their own home or do any of their own repairs, or did they just— Barnett: No, not then. I think—that was just after the Depression—I think they were just happy to be able to get a home. Franklin: Right. Interesting. Because, you know, for some people looking outside, you could look at that level of government control—because we have these big debates about the role of the government in society today, and it’s kind of interesting to hear about it. Barnett: Well, there was no control where the government come in and said, you do this and you do that and you do this. As long as you didn’t get into trouble and you did your job, and were a normal person, there was nobody ever complained about it. I remember I was back behind where the Racquet Club is. I was hunting ground squirrels with a .22 one day. And at that time, nobody had any problems with it. And one of the Richland patrol people came and picked me up and brought me back to the patrol station. And he called my dad. My dad come in and he says, what’s wrong? He says, we caught your boy shooting .22s at such-and-such area. He said, well, is he aiming at the road? Said, no. Said, did he shoot it at anybody? Said, no. Then what the hell are you bothering me about? I mean, that’s just how it was in those times. It wasn’t any of this, oh my god, he’s got a gun. It just was normal. Because I had my first rifle when I was about—I must have been about eight years old. And we used to go out and go rabbit hunting. Franklin: Did you ever spend much time in Kennewick or Pasco—in either of those--? Barnett: Not really. My wife was born in Pasco. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: I never spent much time in it because I had no reason to. I mean, it wasn’t the case of I was afraid to or wary about it—just I had no reason to. All, everything I needed was in Richland or around the Richland area. Franklin: Why did you first have to get surgery on your knee at 13? Barnett: Well, my knee locked. I didn’t find out until about 25 years later that the doctor had actually not fixed it. Because what they found out was there was a meniscus cartilage—you know in your knee? And mine was oblong and it had broke in half. And it had slipped between the joint and it had locked my knee so I couldn’t straighten it out. So I’d have to pick it up, lay it across the other leg, and pull it and pop it back out. But that was the first—I was accident prone. I had a radical mastoid when I was about 15. By the time I got out of high school, I probably had 100 stitches in me. I mean, if it happened, I did it and got it happened to me. I was playing baseball, jumped over a fence, and landed on a guard rake with the thongs up—four thongs in one of my foot. Franklin: Ouch. Barnett: Weird things like that are always happening to me. One time, when I was in school, I reached up to open a door and a kid slammed it and put my hand through the window, sliced across this way. And I looked at it, bleeding, and I closed it up and went to the nurse’s office. The nurse got all panicky. She called my mom, and I could hear my mom say over the phone real loud, again?! And the nurse must’ve thought she was the hard-heartest old lady there ever was, but my mother was just used to it. Franklin: Yeah, right. Barnett: And I didn’t do things out of the way to have it happen, just—if it’s gonna be an odd thing, it happened. Franklin: Right. Barnett: So I kind of, like I say, with all this mess I got with my knee now, I call it Young Stupid Male Syndrome, a lot of it. I don’t—I get frustrated with it, because I love to garden and I can’t garden anymore. But I don’t get worried or depressed about it, because it’s there and nothing I can do about it, so just live with it. Franklin: Right. So jump back ahead now. So you said you moved to Springfield in the Air Force for basic training, and that was— Barnett: No, I was—San Antonio for basic training, and then to Springfield. Franklin: And that was a big culture shock. Barnett: Oh, yeah. I mean, I drove a vehicle and drove into town to haul officers into town. And here is a town with 100,000 people and I’d never been in anything bigger than Richland, Washington. So you can imagine the shock it was, being in that kind of traffic. Franklin: Right. And then where did you go after that? Barnett: Well, I was there for about a year-and-a-half, two years. Then I went to Thule, Greenland. Franklin: Interesting. Barnett: Top of the world. Franklin: Yeah. And what were you—was that for the—weren’t there bombers stationed— Barnett: No, they had the fueling planes there. Yes, they had SAC planes all over the world at that time. But at Thule they had the KC-135s and the KC-97s that were fueling planes. Franklin: Right. Barnett: So we were there to support them. Franklin: And those were there to refuel the— Barnett: The B-52s. Franklin: --the B-52s that were carrying weapons in case of-- Barnett: Yup, because there was one from every base in the world in the air 24 hours a day. Franklin: Right. And can you talk—what was that like, to be in—and was the base separated from any other communities in Greenland, or did you-- Barnett: It was a base of its own. There were no other communities besides Thule, that’s it. Franklin: And how long were you there? Barnett: Year. Franklin: And what was that like? Barnett: Well, it’s an interesting place to visit, but you don’t want to live there permanently. [LAUGHTER] Let’s put it that way. They have permafrost which is—oh, I guess about two foot down. So in the spring there are all these little beautiful tundra flowers—yellows and whites and all that. And then when they’re gone it’s just green grass and that’s it. And when they went to put a pole in the ground, they put a can—a barrel of oil in the ground, and light the oil, and then dig around that barrel. Because that’s the only way to get down past the permafrost. Because permafrost is almost like concrete. Franklin: Yes, yeah. I’m from Alaska originally, and so I’m very familiar with permafrost. So after Greenland, where did you go? Barnett: Went to Mountain Home Air Force Base. Franklin: And where is that? Barnett: Idaho, Washington. Franklin: Oh, okay. So kind of close to-- Barnett: Yeah, out in Mountain Home. They had B-47s then at Mountain Home. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: I figured out that they actually phased out B-47s because they were built before the B-52s and they figured the B-47s weren't worth keeping around. Franklin: And what did you do in the Air Force? Barnett: I drove. I drove every kind of vehicle you can think of. Franklin: Oh, really? Barnett: Yeah. When I moved to Fairchild from Mountain Home, I was trained to tow B-52s in the back, in the hangars. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: With a five-ton Yuke. Four-wheel drive, five ton, and you had wing walkers on the outside that would guide you, and you would back this thing up, this big B-52 into a hangar. Franklin: Wow. Barnett: They would pull it down to a fueling station or whatever. Franklin: Cool. And then when did you come back to Richland? Barnett: 1965. I got out to Richland and we moved to--I can't remember the address, but it was on Marshall. We moved to a house on Marshall. Franklin: Was it an Alphabet House, or was it a-- Barnett: Yeah, it was an Alphabet House. I remember it most because the neighbors had a monkey. And the monkey kept stealing my daughter's candy from her. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So you said--wait, so by this point you had a family? Barnett: Yeah, I had--I adopted my oldest boy and I had two children. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: They were all born at Fairchild. Franklin: Okay. And a wife, I presume? Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: And what did your wife do in Richland? Barnett: She was just a mother. But we divorced in about '70. And then I remarried. Franklin: Okay. And what did you do when you came back to Richland? Barnett: Anything I could. I worked at O'Malley's Drug Store for a while. I worked at his house--O'Malley's house, leveled his backyard. I worked at Walter's Grape Juice, I worked at Bell Furniture, I worked at—at that time, it was originally called the Mart, at that big building right next to the Federal Building. At one time, that was a big--what would you call it? They had a cafeteria and a grocery store and all the other—kind of like Walmart. Franklin: Right. Barnett: It was called the Mart at that time. And I worked there in the clippers that they washed the dishes with. And then I went to work for the bowling alley, Atomic Lanes, which was right there where the Jacks and Sons Tavern is. That was a community center and a bowling alley there. And I worked there for about a month, and then they went automatic. So, about that time, I was just about ready to get out—finish high school. And I don't think I had any other job after that, and I went in the Air Force. Franklin: Oh, so--I'm sorry. When you came back to Richland, what did you do? So in 1965. Barnett: Oh, I did everything then. You name it, I took a job. Before—I'm sorry, I got it backwards. Before I went in the Air Force, there wasn't many jobs for people in the—who were kids in Richland. And I worked the bowling alley and I worked down at a dry cleaning outfit. But when I come back to Richland, that's when I had all these other jobs. I worked all these other jobs to keep supplied for the family. Franklin: How had Richland changed in the eight years since you had been gone? Barnett: Well, the Uptown district had--the Newberry's had left. And there was a Safeway store right next to the theater. Right now I think it's a—I don't know, some kind of a multi shop deal. And both of the stores that were there originally are gone. They're now all antique stores. Franklin: Right. Barnett: So it was—when it was built, it was the first big complex for going shopping in Tri-Cities. Franklin: Right. Barnett: And after they built that, they built Highlands. And that was another big complex for shopping. So I worked everything I could, and 19--oh, what was it? [SIGH] About '67 or '68, I went to work at Hanford. I finally got on with them. Because I'd been applying at Hanford for three years. And I finally got to work with them. I won't mention how I got to work for them, because to me, it's kind of a ridiculous deal, and I don't know whether it was prejudice or not. Well, I'll go ahead. Franklin: I was gonna say, now you've got my interest. Barnett: I was--how I'd shop for a job, I'd go out and fill out an employment application, and I'd just distribute--go out all over town and fill out employment applications. And every week, I'd go back and check them. Well, one time, I was filling out an appointment application, and one of the guys I knew, I met him, and he said, hey, there's a new employment office over there at the new Whitaker School. And you might check it out. So I went over there and checked it out and signed up. And three days later, Hanford called me for a job. And I found out that that originally was a minority employment office. Franklin: Oh. Barnett: So I've always had the feeling that somebody didn't look at the records right. They didn't see the C. [LAUGHTER] Because I didn't get hired until I went to there and did an application. Because the government was required to hire a certain number of minority-- Franklin: Right. Well, but you did get hired. Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: So what did you do at Hanford? Barnett: Well, I can say as little as possible, like everybody else. [LAUGHTER] That's a common joke. Of course, it took me about--I couldn't understand it. It took me about three months to get a security clearance. When I was in SAC, I had a Secret clearance. Both my folks worked at Hanford, they had Secret clearance. But it still took me about three months to get a security clearance. And all the time, since I've been on the Air Force, I've lived in Richland, I never could understand the government—why they wasted so much money on a security clearance for me. But when I got out there, I started as a process operator. And started at B Plant. And there was no training at that time. I mean, when you went into a radiation zone, one of the guys that was experienced took you with him. And you dressed like he did, hoping he knew what he was doing, because that's how you dressed. And that's how you learned to dress right. So I started out going into the canyon--I don't know if you knew what the canyons were—okay? We went into the canyons and I helped mixed chemicals in the chemical gallery. And that's where I think I really screwed up my knees, because I can remember—remember, I call it Young Stupid Male Syndrome--I remember throwing a hundred-pound sack of chemicals on my shoulder and going up three flights of stairs with them, rather than wait for the elevator. Young and dumb, indestructible. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Actually, maybe for those who might be watching this who might not be as familiar with some of this stuff as I am, can you describe the canyon? Barnett: Well, the canyon was—well, like I say, the building was about 150-foot wide and about 800-foot long. And it was four stories deep and there was just one--the reason they call it canyon was because it was a gigantic canyon. It went the full length of the building, and they had huge cranes that moved different stuff so they could process the atomic waste. Because in B Plant, they process the nuclear waste. They ship it down to B Plant and we go through chemical stuff to separate the strontium and cesium from it. And that would be sent to the encapsulation plant. That was built about—oh, six years after I went to work at B Plant. They closed up after I'd been there for ten years, and I went to work for Encapsulation Building. But the canyon is an immensely big, empty storage building, really what it is. And I don't know how—or what they're gonna do with them now, because there is some radiation there that you wouldn't believe how hot it was. We took samples of radiation behind lead shields, and then they were so hot that they ended up having the crane pick up the samples and dispose of them, because we couldn't move them. Franklin: Wow. Did you—and so when you came back, your father was no longer working at Hanford, right? Barnett: Yeah, he was still working at Hanford. Franklin: Oh, was he still working—so you guys worked at Hanford at the same time. Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, wow, that's really interesting. So can you tell me a little bit more about what a—describe in a little more detail the job of a process operator? Barnett: Well, real basically, we were what you might call nuclear janitors. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: We clean up the messes that pipe fitters or millwrights or electricians made. We process all the chemical--mixed all the chemicals and processed—did all the processing of separating the strontium and cesium from the nuclear waste and ship them to tank farms. And that was basically what our main job was. We had a few major accidents. Now it'd be all over the world, about how bad it was and all that. But we just went about our business cleaning it up and went on our job. None of us got an overdose of radiation. We relied on our radiation monitors and they were good radiation monitors. If we were getting too much, they yanked us out of there real quick. So we didn't even think about it. It wasn't the case of being scared of it or anything else. It's like your hazardous wastes that they got, like coming from the hospital, where they work in an x-ray lab, they throw all the gloves and stuff and that. That's called mixed hazardous waste. Well, you could take a bath in that and not get any radiation on you. But according to what the public knew, those things are really highly radioactive boxes. And I think the biggest problem the government had is they didn't tell the people enough about what was really going on after the war was over. Franklin: Oh. Really? Barnett: Yeah, because there would have been less worry about things that were going on then, if they would have known. Because if you don't know anything about radiation, and you hear somebody mentions something is irradiated, you get all panicky about it. The expression for radiation out there was, you get a crap up. You get a crap up, you scrub it off and go about your business. Now, they panic and take you to town and do all that sort of stuff. There, we just scrubbed it off and went about our business. Franklin: Right. Barnett: And I never worried about it. Franklin: Okay. So you said you were a process separator at B Plant. And then you went to the Canyon, and what did you do-- Barnett: Well, I didn't go to the Canyon, I went to 225-B, the Encapsulation Building. Franklin; 225-B, the Encapsulation Building. Barnett: That's where they encapsulated the strontium and cesium. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: We all did a multitude of jobs. We worked on the cells, processing the strontium and cesium. And we worked behind the cells in mixing chemicals and we worked from when they loaded the chemicals for shipment for a long period of time when they were shipping cesium to the radiation plant for irradiating medical waste. And that ended when the guy was what they called recycling the cesium capsules too much. They get real hot. I mean, temperature-wise. And he was setting it in the water for a period of time and taking it out of water and cooling them off and stashing them back in the water. Well, one of them leaked. Franklin: Ooh. Barnett: And so they ended up, the whole place had to have all those capsules moved back. So that was a big fiasco. And again, it wasn't our fault. It was the guy doing the work was stupid enough to not check and see what he was doing. Franklin: Right. Barnett: And that's usually what happens with most—any of the radiation. And if you work with radiation, it's not the guy doing the work, it's somebody that's stupid and doesn't check what he's doing, doesn't follow regulations that causes the problem. Franklin: So did you have any other jobs at Hanford? Or what-- Barnett: I don't know, you ever heard of McCluskey? Franklin: Yeah. Barnett: Well, I was over there when we cleaned—for five weeks cleaning up that building. Franklin: Really? Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: Were you there at the time of the accident-- Barnett: No, no. Franklin: --or part of the cleanup for that? Barnett: Afterwards. They were trying to clean up the rooms so they could go in there and get things squared away. And we spent five weeks there. And to tell you how screwball the government can be, the last week-and-a-half we were there, we finally told our supervisor, look, all of worked on this radiation for 15, 20 years. We know how to clean it up. Quit telling us what to do. Let us go in there and clean it up and we'll get it cleaned up for you in no time at all. So they took a chance. And what they did is we ragged all along the bottom of the building, and we took water fire extinguishers. Because it's americium, and americium is a powder substance, it floats real easy. But it's water soluble--it'll run down with water. So we went in there and sprayed the walls with it real heavy. Then wiped everything down, moved everything that was movable, bagged it up in plastic bags and moved it out. And inside of a week, we had it down to mask only. Before then, we were wearing three pairs of plastic and cooling air and fresh air. Franklin: Wow. Barnett: And we cleaned it up in a week-and-a-half because they didn't want the people that knew what they were doing doing it. And that's the biggest problem with the government: they've always got the bureaucracy up here that knows what's going on, but they never ask the poor guy that’s doing all the work what's going on. I think you've seen that numerous times. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I think so. [LAUGHTER] Wow, that's really fascinating. So how long total did you work at Hanford? Barnett: 30 years. Franklin: 30 years. Barnett: I had to take a medical retirement in '98. Franklin: '98. So then you were there, then, kind of from the shift from production to cleanup. Right? The production and shutdown. Barnett: No, when I left they were just getting ready to start cleaning things up. Franklin: Okay, so can you maybe talk about the shift from production to shutdown? How did that affect your job? Barnett: Well, I really didn't get in on any of the cleanup, because I left before they did. But I talked to a number of the guys out there that I worked with that were in the cleanup. The biggest problem they had is they put such a limit on chemicals they could use to do cleanup that they had to use things that they claim were not environmentally safe. They had to void all that--like Tide. They wouldn't even let us use Tide to wash the walls down. Now, you use Tide in washing machines. [LAUGHTER] Come on, give me a break. That's a hazardous chemical? And I guess it took them quite a while to get the thing cleaned up. Because, like I say, they didn't start cleaning it up until after I left. Franklin: Right. So what did you do in the shutdown era? Like after '87, from '87 to '98? What was your job primarily? Barnett: They didn't shut down--they shut B Plant down, but they didn't shut 2-and-a-quarter down. 2-and-a-quarter was still processing strontium and cesium. Franklin: Oh, okay, so then you kept in the waste encapsulation. Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: Can you describe a little bit more the process of waste encapsulation? Barnett: Well, strontium is not soluble--not water soluble. And strontium is. And what they had--they had a special process--I don't know exactly the process. I just know what we did. You would take a mixed chemicals with the cesium and you would dissolve it and then you would heat it up to--I think--800 degrees into a liquid. And then you had a machine we called a tilt-pour which would pour seven capsules at a time full of cesium. And then you'd take these capsules and you'd put a sensoring disc in them to make them airtight. And then you'd weld a cap onto that. That'd be welded by a machine. And most then it was computerized. Then that was decontaminated until it was clean. And then it was put into another capsule, and that capsule was also—put a lid on it, but it was soldered on—welded on. And that was moved into the pool cells. Pool cells are 13-foot deep. What you had is a special hole built into the wall with water that you would shove that capsule through. And then the guy on the other side in the pool cell would grab the capsule and pull it out. And he would go to the pool cell that he's designated to go to, and he would shove it through a hole in the wall. And somebody on the other side would grab it and pull it and then you'd put it into its spot. So it was quite a process. And the fear was--you couldn't get that capsule within five feet of the top. Because if you did, you'd get a high radiation alarm. They’d read millions of rads on those capsules. They were hot, no two ways about it. And one thing I've always wondered is why does cesium glow blue when you turn the lights out? Franklin: Wow. Barnett: You turn the lights out in the pool cell, and all these cesium capsules will glow blue. And I've never--I've had somebody say it's something about the speed of light and all that. But I'd like to know the real reason it does that. Franklin: That sounds kind of strangely beautiful. Barnett: It was. It's a blue glow all along the bottom. The strontium doesn't. Strontium is not water soluble and it doesn't glow at all. In fact, I got some strontium in me one time when I had a tape when one of the manipulators--I don't know if I didn't mention--all the work was done from the outside with the manipulators. You know what manipulators are. Franklin: Right, yeah. Barnett: Okay, and all the capsulation, all of the work was done with manipulators from the outside. And it was amazing what some of those guys could do. They could take a little bottle about so big with a little bitty top and they could pick up that bottle, hold it here, and took up the other--the cap with the lid and put it on it. Franklin: Wow. Barnett: I was never that good with it, but there some guys out there who got real expertise with that. It just takes a lot of work to learn to use those things. Franklin: I bet. Barnett: That's one reason my hand's tore up--my hand just didn't take it so much. Franklin: And you said you got strontium on your hand? Barnett: Yeah, I got--I couldn't handle manipulators good because my hand was falling apart on me. So I took all the decontamination of the manipulator. Because that's--a manipulator has to be pulled after so many--I think it's so many weeks, the Mylar coating on it starts deteriorating. So it has to be pulled, decontaminated, and new Mylar sheath put on it. And I was in there decontaminating one of the manipulators, and one of the—well, they were trying new bands that controlled the grips. And one of them broke and sliced my hand. And I got some strontium in my finger. It was about 700 counts. I wasn't too worried about it. But they took me to town and went on all government roads, documented and everything and brought me back. I couldn't work with radiation for about three months until that thing finally deteriorated--worked out of the body. Franklin: Wow. Barnett: But I didn't worry about it. It wasn't enough to do any harm. Franklin: Wow, that's really-- Barnett: See, that's the difference between working with the stuff and knowing what it does, and not working with the stuff. Franklin: Right. Right, I've heard a lot of similar things about-- Barnett: It's like chemicals. I'd rather work at a radiation plant than at a chemical plant. Because if you have good radiation monitors, you're not gonna get an overdose of radiation. But with a chemical plant, look what they have out there now. A guy gets a whiff of chemicals, they all go panic about it. Franklin: Yeah, I see where you're--I see your point. So you said--earlier when you said you would put the cesium in the pools—cesium cans, you couldn't get them too close to something, because they'd get too hot. Sorry--can you-- Barnett: No, it wasn't too close--they're in--oh, it probably was a--well, what would you call it? It was like a cabinet with holes in it. You would drop these in there. And they're spaced out. You couldn't pull them too high. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: If you pulled them sometimes when you're getting ready to transfer them to the pool cell, they would hydroplane and come up. And if you pulled them too fast, they would come up and you'd get a high radiation alarm. You’d just drop it back down and it'd go off. Franklin: Oh, okay. Barnett: That's what it was. Franklin: I got--okay. I gotcha. So-- Barnett: It only takes one time, you remember not to do that anymore. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I bet. So even though your area—your work didn't change much when most of the plans ordered to shut down. You still probably worked with a lot of people whose jobs might have changed-- Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: --during shutdown. Can you talk about that transition between process--? Barnett: Well, I talked with some of the guys and they were talking about how much work it took to get things cleaned up. Like the area behind the pool cells, that had to be completely decontaminated. And we finally got it down to where it was just one pair and no masks. That took a lot of work. Decontaminating just takes a lot of hand-scrubbing. I mean, it's not a case of, you can put something there and pick it up and get rid of it. You got a scrub a lot of places until it's gone. It takes a lot of work. And I talked to one fella, and he said that they had all the cells that were down to clean—and what they consider clean is no radiation in them. And it is hard for me to believe, because some of those cells were really hot. But I never got a chance on the cleanup. Franklin: How was--so when Hanford was shifting over, how was this change explained by management, or some of the--how was it conveyed, or how did the community take it? Barnett: Management never explained anything to anybody. [LAUGHTER] I don't remember hearing the community complaining about anything, because most of the guys worked out there, and they knew what was going on. So there was no big panic about it. It wasn't the case where some guys didn't work here, they were told this was going on and got all excited because they didn’t know what was going on. Most people knew what was going on. So there was no big panic that I remember. Franklin: Okay. Barnett: We didn't panic with radiation, because we had good radiation monitors. Franklin: Right. Barnett: And that makes a big difference when you're working around radiation. Franklin: So being in waste encapsulation, how did other events--other nuclear accidents around the country or around the world, like Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, kind of affect how your job or how-- Barnett: It made us see how ridiculous--because Three Mile Island actually worked. It was [UNKNOWN] what it was built for. And the moderation they got--radiation they got was not as much as you get flying from here to Denver City. Because you get more radiation from the sun than you do from—what the people at Three Mile Island got. But they blew it up so big, because so many years the government kept radiation such a secret. And that's the reason there's so much panic whenever they say radiation. Of course, there's been some real bad accidents. That one in Japan—that was a horrible thing. But as far as Hanford goes, most of the people that worked at Hanford don't—I guess they're not working around radiation anymore; it's all chemicals. Because they're getting—they get the chemicals and to me, that's the management's problem. Because they're doing something wrong in taking care of the people. The people are doing what they're told to do. If management is telling them, hey, you got to wear this, and they're not wearing it, then that's their problem—that’s the worker's problem. But when the management doesn't do anything about it, that's their problem—that’s management's problem. And I think from what I've heard and read, most of this is a managerial problem. It's not a case that the worker is going out of his way to ignore any safety concerns. Franklin: Right. What about the accident in Chernobyl? How did that--did that affect your job, or-- Barnett: Yeah, it affected it because they shut down N Reactor. And N Reactor, up until then, was as safe as any reactor in the country. It had so many safety pieces on it that you could darn near slam a door and make it shut down. But they shut it down because it was something like Chernobyl. And that's where the big effect was. Franklin: How did--oh, how did security policies change over time? Did they change with the different contractors or in response to different events? Barnett: No, the security’s main thing was basically the same. You had the security guards at like 200 East—well, they left the security guards that you couldn’t get out to Hanford without a security clearance. But that quit because they had the buses, and that stopped. And they had the security guards checking the buses and stuff as you went through. And then typical government, they started screaming about, oh, we're burning too much gas. We can't afford gas! So we'll shut the buses down. [LAUGHTER] So everybody had to drive out. But the guards at the gate checked your badges, checked your cars. If there was anything in it--you couldn’t take cameras or anything like that out there. If the guard knew you, he checked you out whether he knew you or not, because he had to make sure your wife didn't leave a camera sitting in your backseat you didn't know about. Franklin: Right. Barnett: Which happened on occasion. Franklin: Right, I bet. How did your job change with the different contractors coming in? Did it change much, or did you-- Barnett: Well, every contractor that came in, the engineers thought they were gonna remake the world. They would come up with some plan that they saw on a schematic and say, this is the way we want to do it. And we'd tell them point blank, it won't work. We've tried it that way. And they say, oh yes, it will! So we'd spend $50,000 in parts and stuff to put this together, and then it didn't work. And then they went around, well, why didn't it work? Well. The only one I ever saw that was a decent engineer is when he'd draw up a plan to do something, he would go to the millwrights, he would go to the operators, he'd go to the instrument techs and ask them to look at it and see if there's anything that needs done on it. And he had never had any problems. But these that come straight out of school and thought they could reinvent the world were a pain in the butt to us because they cost money and time. Franklin: Do you remember who that good engineer was? Barnett: He left. I don't remember who he was. But he left and went to work for a big company some place. Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you remember President Nixon's visit in--I think it was 1970 or 1971? Barnett: I might have. I didn't see him. I don't worry about politics. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Barnett: He didn't do our place any good or any bad. Just a big political statement. Franklin: How did the Tri-Cities change from when you came back in 1968 until today? What kind of strikes you as major changes? Barnett: Well, there seem to be more, you might say, petty crimes. There wasn't as much as there was before--there was more than there was before, I should say. But the city maintained its equilibrium about the same, because the people have been here for 20 years, and then they sold the city to the town. There was no big change in the government. The police stayed the same. The biggest change was you had to call a painter if you wanted your house painted. And they sold the houses to the people, and that was the biggest change. Franklin: How about, though, since—from when you came back in 1968 until today? Has there been any--has the community changed at all? Barnett: Well, a lot of the businesses have left Richland. They moved out Columbia Center area, or up there in that area. We don't have--you got to go to Columbia Center to find a business. There's a few still there. There's Home Depot and stuff like that down there, Big Lots. But there's not as many as there used to be. And mostly antique shops or stereo shops. Franklin: Right. Barnett: But there's always the Spudnut. It's always been there. Franklin: There is always the Spudnuts, yeah. They're good too. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? Barnett: Well, us kids had different ways of playing that nowadays they would just panic about it. We used to have BB gun fights. We’d put on leather jackets and extra pair of Levi's and a hat and go into these orchards like where Densow's was and we'd have BB gun fights. And you haven't really lived until you've had your butt shot by a BB. [LAUGHTER] But nowadays there'd be some big panic about it that you're gonna shoot an eye out. Well, nobody ever shot an eye out because we made sure that we didn't shoot towards the head. [LAUGHTER] When they were building the houses, that's what was amazing, how fast they put these houses up. It wasn't a week or so to get a house started--it was almost a week and they had the thing almost done. And we used to go to different houses and have clod fights. Things like that that you don't dare do nowadays. Franklin: When you had what kind of fights? Barnett: Clod fights. Clodded earth. We'd get behind stuff and throw clods at each other. And the snow then was two, three foot deep. Because I remember building snow forts in my yard three foot high and never have to go to the yard to get snow. So there has been a big change in the weather. And the shelterbelt, that made a big difference, because I remember when we had sandstorms--not dust storms, sandstorms. And my dad would pull his car up in front of the house to keep the sand from blasting the side of the car off--the paint. So there's been big changes. The shelterbelt was one thing the government put in that actually worked. It’s kind of surprising. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That's great. Is there anything else? Anything else you'd like to talk about? Barnett: Well, not really. Just that the area behind--you know, in West Richland at that time used to be Heminger City and Enterprise. They were two cities then. Franklin: Okay, tell me, were those cities that predated the Hanford Project? Barnett: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, and how big were there? Barnett: Oh, they were just little communities. It was just one run into the other. There was one called Enterprise, one was called--what did I just say? Franklin: Something city. Barnett: Heminger City. Franklin: Heminger City. Barnett: One of the elections went out for voting, they had one of the places that you went to was called Enterprise. Franklin: And how long did those communities last after Hanford came? Barnett: Not very long. I can remember Dad going out to the first town—first little town was Heminger City. And that was right where Cline's computer shop is, it was automobile shop there. And those were all owned by one group--one person. I think it was--Herricks was the name. And she had a little taco stand in one of the places. And OK Tire Shop had part of the one building that they sold tires and did car repair out of. So it was a slow change in West Richland. We had a feed store for a while. But Hanford went on strike and our feed store went down the tubes. They used to have what they called parking lot critter sells. People would bring all their animals, little animals that they wanted to sell in cages. And we would sell them for them and get 10% of the interest. It was a pretty good deal, because a lot of people had pet rabbits and stuff like that and they wanted to get rid of them. Usually had them at the un-boat races. You heard of the un-boat races? Franklin: Why don't you tell me? Barnett: The un-boat races? You ever heard of them? Franklin: Why don't you tell me? Barnett: Well, the un-boat race was you went up to the Horn Rapids Dam, and you put something in. It could not be a boat. It could be a bath tub, it could be inner tubes--it could be anything that you could see above that would float and it could not be called--it was called un-boat race. And there was a prize that they got down towards the bridge that crosses the Yakima there on George Washington Way. Got down about that far, there was a prize who got there first. But they ended up cutting that out because people left too much stuff—garbage alongside the road. They wouldn’t pick it up and take it with them when they were done with it. But that was a lot of fun. We used to stand up on the ridge. Always started about May. And we'd stand there and watch people come down the river on these un-boats. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That sounds really fun. Anyone else have anything? Okay, well, Dan, thank you so much for talking to us today. I learned a lot of great stuff about Richland and waste encapsulation. I really appreciate it. Barnett: Okay. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Daniel Barnett Description An account of the resource An interview with Daniel Barnett conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-12: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear instruments & methods Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/13/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 225 B Encapsulation Building B Plant Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hunting Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7022bb74a0ba57959267cd96ac015ced.jpg 0aafabc17d93e102362c6d2e53e8abc5 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F061db68a7c1d8e77ce0f3f249b8a7e72.mp4 dad1f7349628cab3706efa956239db82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alice Didier Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Alice Didier on July 12th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Alice Didier about her experiences working at the Hanford site and homesteading outside of—Connell? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Alice Didier: Eltopia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Eltopa. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Eltopia, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Eltopia, okay. So why don’t we start at the beginning. Where were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I was born in Portland, Oregon. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I was a city girl. Met my husband, who was born in Condon, Oregon, and he came from wheat farming country. However, his dad was not a farmer; he ran a machine shop in Condon. However, Don worked on many of the farms up there in Condon. We were married in 1951, and Don was in the service. He was in the Air Force. So after he was discharged, we came home to Condon. Our dream was to have something of our own—a farm, or—you know—mainly a farm. But the ground in that area was way too expensive for us to ever dream of owning anything. So we had the—we decided to make a trip to Canada. We went all the way to Prince George looking for land to buy, because they were encouraging American citizens to come up there and settle. Well, after that trip—before that trip, Don got an inquiry, or got a letter from the—I don’t really—it was the Bureau of Reclamation? I don’t know. It was if you were a veteran, you were entitled to throw your name in the hat, and if your name was drawn, you might have an opportunity to draw some land up here in the Columbia Basin. On a whim, he filled that out and mailed it before we left. And we were very glad we did because Prince George was a pole thicket up there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: It was a what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: A pole thicket. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: A pole thicket. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: My goodness gracious, if you had to clear that land it’d take you forever and a day. Plus—what is—peat? It had a peat—you couldn’t burn it, because you’d burn off everything that was worth—of value to farm. So you had to clear everything by hand. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So, anyway. Very glad that when we got back, he had sent this in, and he was informed to come for an interview in Connell by a board of people that would determine if we were qualified. You were supposed to have assets, I think, of $1,500. I don’t remember what the qualifications were. But we did not have—we did not meet the qualifications. But we decided that we’d bluff it through. [LAUGHTER] So we came up in the fall of 1953. To Connell. I was eight-and-a-half months pregnant with my daughter. First thing I did was look up the name of the doctor in the phone book in Connell, because I thought I might not make it back to Condon before she appeared on the scene. But anyway, didn’t work out that way. But they took Don out in a Jeep, and bounced over hill and dale, and showed him the land that they had laid out that was available for drawing at that time. Not everything was available at the same time. So he picked out our farm unit. I had never—I didn’t get to see the land. I didn’t have any part of that, because I didn’t want to chance taking a trip in the Jeep in my condition. February of ’54, his dad and Don loaded up—we bought this Army tent, and he loaded up everything we owned in the way of furniture and moved up to our unit. It was nothing but rock, sagebrush, rattlesnakes—[LAUGHTER]—and, yeah, sagebrush, I said sagebrush. A lot of sagebrush. All of that had to be cut and burnt—cleared, in other words, in order to farm anything in the area that we picked out. Some land around there had been farmed—wheat farmers had tried their hand at raising wheat in that area, small areas. But not enough rainfall. And there were sheep camps in there. They had been running sheep, some of them. When Don brought me up, he pulled up on this—we had to come in from Eltopia; there were no roads built. So we had to come over hill and dale to get out to our farm unit. And he pulled up, and he said, this is it. And I said, this is it? I mean—[LAUGHTER] there was nothing there, period. It was sort of a shock. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And you hadn’t seen it before this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I had not seen it before then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: It had been purchased sight unseen by you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yes, yes. And he and his dad had preceded my coming up there to drop our stuff off and build a wooden floor and side—what would you call it? Sidewalls. Sidewalls for the tent. So they had it pretty well constructed. Anyway, that was the beginning. [LAUGHTER] Don had borrowed from a farmer in Condon a small little D4 Cat, I think it was. We hauled that up here. And he and his dad had built a scraper, a small scraper, to put behind it. So Don started developing a piece of land behind where we had pitched this tent. My daughter was three months old when we moved up here. Let’s see—October, November, December—four months old, I guess. And my son was about a year-and-a-half, or less than two. So we took up residence in our tent. [LAUGHTER] And when we finally got our power, we had a refrigerator. Like I said, I had a Sud Saver washing machine that you could dump the water. We had two tubs out front—laundry tubs, like there used—women used to have in their house. So I’d save the wash water, and I’d save the rinse water, because we were hauling every drop of water. It was pretty precious. You reuse it a couple of times. Maybe not the most sanitary, but that was the—[LAUGHTER] That’s what we had to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: How long did it take from when you moved in to when you got power? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I’d say two weeks at the most. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Big Bend came in and dropped power in. But we still had no roads. We had a little ’51 Oldsmobile and we had a water trailer, and we had to go into Eltopia to the railroad—there was a railroad well. And we’d fill there. It took a half a tank of gas to get down to the well and back with a tank of water. Yeah. And we had no neighbors. There were no neighbors. It was just Don and I out there. Over the hill was a couple. She was an English war bride. And they had settled in there before we did. And then we had another couple to the south of us. But we were the only people in that whole area. It was pretty dark at night, I’m going to tell you. There were no lights. There was nothing. It was black. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. So how fast did the land clearing go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Not very fast. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Not very fast? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Because we didn’t have any money. We used a big Noble blade and cut the sagebrush. Then we’d have to go out and pile it by hand in big stacks and burn it. Don managed to level off, I think—well, I don’t know, what was it? 14, 15 acres was the first—because in those days, there were no circles. It was all either you had hand line—irrigation hand line, or you had to level the ground to a grade that you could put in a ditch and use siphon tubes—rill irrigation, they called it. And Don didn’t want anything to do with the hand lines. So he was leveling it for rill irrigation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And so you used real irrigation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: We did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And how do you spell that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: R-I-L-L. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: R-I-L-L. We did a previous oral history where someone mentioned that and we didn’t— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Know how to spell— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: No one at the Project had heard of that and we weren’t sure how to spell it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So it’s R-I-L-L— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: --irrigation. Thank you so much. Can go back and fix some transcripts. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So it’s—just will you explain that again? That’s when you lay down—where you grade— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier; You have to grade the land so that the water will flow from the top to the bottom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: You know, enough of a grade so that the water will flow down the—well, you put ditches from the head ditch up here that carries the main body of water. You would back up to that with ditch shovels and make ditches every so far through your crop. That’s where you would set the siphon tube and the water would go from the top to the bottom. When it reached the bottom, then you’d pick them up and move on down. You could only set so many at one time, depending on how much of a head of a water you had—or how many feet you had coming down the ditch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So that’s a much more labor-intensive type of irrigation. I imagine, probably an older type of irrigation, as well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Right, but not maybe as labor-intensive as packing that hand line. That’s work. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And what would the tubes be constructed out of usually? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Aluminum. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Aluminum tubes, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And there’s a picture, I think, in that magazine I gave you from International Harvester, showing me priming one of those tubes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay, great. Wow, that’s great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: You had to learn how to do that. You had to learn how to give it a deal like this and flip it over quick so you didn’t lose your prime. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: A lot of people didn’t know how to do it in the beginning and they’d suck on it, if you can believe that, to get the water running. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Kind of like siphoning gas? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, only—the water was much cleaner than later on. I mean, after more—we actually, on this end of the Basin, reuse the water that comes in up north. So a lot of it’s recovered—what is that lake up there that—there’s a lake—I can’t remember the name of it right now. So, that was our first—and our first venture was to plant some hay. There was nobody to buy what you raised. We had no markets then. So I remember the hay that we baled—we finally got it baled and it sat out there until the hay grew up over it, because there was no sense picking it up; we didn’t have anybody to sell it to. [LAUGHTER] So it wasn’t a very productive, I guess, in the beginning, as far as producing money. So I went to work at Camp Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Do you remember what year that— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No. Well, it’d be—okay, ’54 we moved up here. It was probably during ’54. Because we had to eat. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right, you needed some cash coming in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Hay wasn’t going to cut it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So what did you do at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I was a secretary. I was interviewing people for jobs out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: All kinds of jobs, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: You know, that—I didn’t work there a whole long time. That was a long trip for me, clear from Eltopia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I had to drive that every day. I don’t remember. Not all kinds of jobs, I’m sure, because I’m not versed in scientific things, you know. I’m not sure it was Camp Hanford, so I don’t know what did Camp Hanford do? They were—it was long before all this Project stuff started out here in—I think it was—wasn’t that a military type of camp? Camp Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: There’s a few different things that are referred to as Camp Hanford. There’s the actual Camp Hanford, as it’s oftentimes noted as the camp where the construction crews lived. Then there was—there were a couple—there was a military camp-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I think that was it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: --called Camp Hanford as well, where they—when they had the military stationed there for— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But I wasn’t interviewing for military; it had to be civilian people they were hiring or stuff. I wasn’t military. Because I was not in the military and whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right. So you said you were a secretary, but then you said—didn’t you do something with the whole body counter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: That was for GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: For GE, okay. So in the beginning you worked at Camp Hanford, secretary/interviewer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And then I went to Bureau of Reclamation in Eltopia. They had a construction office there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So I went down and applied for a job there, and I was so happy when I got a job, because I didn’t have to go very far to go to work. They were still completing canals and doing work. So I worked down there for a while. And then I decided, I guess, that I guess that I needed more money—or that we needed more money. So I went out—I applied to go to work at GE. And the first job I had was for Roy Lucas in tech shops. That was 300 Area. All my jobs that I held during that time that I worked out there were all for GE. It was just as GE was phasing out. And I forget who the next contractor was that came in, but GE—yeah. I left just as GE was—they were changing over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And you said you worked for Roy Lewis at— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No, Roy Lucas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Roy Lucas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Lucas, L-U-C-A-S. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: At the tech shops? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Tech shops. He ran—it was like machining. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: They did machining. They had these tech shops—T-E-C-H—tech shops. And then I went to work for—well, there was a little incident between there. I got pregnant again. So I had to take a leave of absence, and my youngest son was born in 1960. So I think three months after he was born, I had taken a leave of absence, I came back, and I got a job at the Whole Body Counter—I think that was next—with Frank Swanberg, where they did all the testing on people that were working out there with their dosimeters or whatever they were wearing. They did a lot of testing on people that had worked out there for their levels of radiation exposure. Then I got a job—I got a promotion and went out to 300 Area again, and I went to work for Ward Spear. I don’t remember the name of that. They were all scientific people there. The papers I typed up were horrendous, with all their equations in them. [LAUGHTER] Then I worked for the boss of that whole group and he eventually became the CEO of Battelle, Ron Paul. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: You know Ron Paul, or have you heard of him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I’ve heard the name, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, he was—I can understand why he was promoted to what he was. He was one of the best bosses I ever worked for, let’s put it that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And why was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Very well organized. Never, ever last minute, I got to have this like ten minutes ago. No. He was always—I don’t know—just was a very personable man. Yeah, I really liked him. And then I got another promotion and I went to work for Art Keene in radiation monitoring. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So kind of back to radiation monitoring. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. And he was head of the whole group that supervised the Whole Body Counter and whatever work—you know, all the people that were doing the monitoring out there. And that’s when I decided that I’d better call it a day. I had five children, and I was driving—I was spending ten to ten-and-a-half hours a day—well, ten hours, I guess it was—for eight hours of work out here. I mean, it took me—we still were not financially doing that well, so I hopped car pools. I had three car pools by the time I got to work at 300 Area. I had to switch and pass go. [LAUGHTER] And then had one more switch, I think. I can’t remember, but anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So then you moved back to the farm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I went back to the farm, and that’s when things started to pick up, and our markets were better, and you had more choices of what to raise. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Do you know what year that would have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, Brett was born in 1960—oh, gosh. I think he was two, something? Probably 1962 or ’63. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And so you said things had kind of improved, at least market-wise by that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Right, well there were more variety of crops to raise. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So what were you—so you started with hay, so what were you expanding out into? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, we raised—in the beginning—well, we tried beans. We tried beans, we tried—I can just give you a repertoire of everything we raised. We didn’t do all that at one time. We raised sweet corn, we raised sugar beets, we raised potatoes. We were into potato growing—my husband loved to raise potatoes. Let’s see, sugar beets. Asparagus. We had 80 acres of asparagus once. So, we—can’t think of anything else. Wheat. We’ve had wheat off and on. I can’t think—and hay. Mainly, here in the last years, we’ve been mainly hay farmers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Because potatoes were always a big gamble. And we had a very bad year one year and almost had to go into bankruptcy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Is that because of weather or— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Because of circumstances. We had two circles of potatoes, and they had out this chemical that they claimed if you sprayed it at a certain time, that it would set your potatoes so they didn’t put on any more small ones—undersized, which paid you nothing. That you’d get bigger growth on the potatoes that were already set underneath the vine. It was MH-30, was what it was. So we tried that, and they sprayed it on on the hottest day of the year, I think. It was very hot that day. In two days, our potatoes were dead. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So you literally could watch them perish. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. Our field man came and he said, Don, the potato vines are dying. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Because it was a salt solution, and they had no warning on their label that you should not spray over a certain temperature. And other people had used it and came out fine. But not us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But what was there we harvested. It was pretty sad. And then that was the year we got a rainstorm. We had wheat and we had a really hard rain. Then next day was like a pressure cooker. And all that wheat sprouted in the head. So it was feed wheat. It was not marketable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Just—you know, one of those years. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. Where nature seems to be throwing everything at you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. I grew up on a farm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: This year seems to be that way, too. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I grew up on a farm as well. My mom still farms. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Then you know what I’m talking about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard lots of stories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: When things start going wrong they just sort of escalate, you know? But potatoes, you had—at that time, you had $1,000 an acre into potatoes before you ever put a harvester in the field. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. So— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I guess that explains the switch to hay. So you said that you had done—the people—I’ve read that the people in that Bend area had tried wheat in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and kind of gave up. But you guys also tried wheat. Did you try that with irrigation or did you try to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh yeah. We had nothing dryland. Everything was irrigated, everything we farmed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And how did the wheat do, besides that one awful year with the pressure cooker? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, you’d better expect over 100 bushel of wheat or—you know, I’m not as up on yields now as I was then, because my son farms our operation since my husband died. I always kid him I’m on a need-to-know basis. [LAUGHTER] I have to ask questions if I want to know—[LAUGHTER]—if I really want to know the nitty gritty about things, and then sometimes he gets sort of upset with me. So I’m saying 120 bushel—120 bushel is not unheard of, and over. Depending on the variety of wheat, you know. The year, the weather, everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So you said that right now you’ve pretty much just reverted to planting hay now—growing hay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Until this past two years. And the hay farmer’s in a world of hurt out there now after that port slowed down over in Tacoma. Sort of ruined the foreign markets. And then, too, our dollar’s been so strong, those people that depended on—I guess that were our markets, they went elsewhere when they weren’t getting their shipments. So you have to work to get those people back buying again. And there is hay stocked all over the basin. We’ve got hay from two years ago we haven’t sold. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And this year we have had rain, rain, rain on about every cutting which makes it feeder hay. My son had an offer the other day of $60 a ton. You got $150 into it to break even. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So you take your licks and walk on, hopefully, if you don’t get your financing cut off. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. Did you spend a lot of time in nearby communities, in Eltopia? Were you involved in any organizations there, or social groups, or church groups or anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, yeah. Yes. I belong to St. Paul Catholic church. We actually built that church, the people that moved in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. The people of that area, we built the St. Paul Catholic church at Eltopia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: How large was Eltopia when you moved there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, the town of Eltopia? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] Ooh, not very big. There had been a bank there once. There’d been—well, when we first moved in there and we had no refrigeration and I had a new baby, there was a Streadwick that opened a little store there. And he carried milk and bread, thank heavens, because I could buy milk from him. Because I couldn’t keep milk without it going sour for more than a day or so at a time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: There was a who? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: A Stredwick. His name was just Stredwick. There was a Stredwick family that owned a filling station on the old highway there. And Millie, she was a widow, but she had a pack of kids, and she was the switchboard operator in Eltopia. If you wanted to make a phone call in the beginning, you had to go to Millie’s house to make the telephone call. Because we had no phones. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Or if you received a call, they’d have to come out and tell you that somebody was trying to get ahold of you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And how far away was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, about the same distance as getting the water. A little bit closer, but not much, because we had to go right into the town of Eltopia to get to her house. She lived in Eltopia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I would say there wasn’t more than 150 people, or less, in Eltopia per se. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Where did the children go to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: They started in Eltopia, my two oldest. But then we—they decided school districts. You either were going to go to Pasco or you were going to go Connell. We were—the dividing line was Fir Road, which was one more road to the south. Well, no, it’s more than one for me, but Eltopia West is the main road now that comes off of 395. It’s one road over from Eltopia West—Fir Road—was the dividing line. If you lived on the left side of Fir Road, you went to North Franklin School District, which was Connell. If you lived on the other side, you went to Pasco. So we went to Connell. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Mesa—they built a grade school in Mesa, they built a grade school in Basin City. That’s all North Franklin. Then they had a grade school in Connell, then they built a junior high and a high school. So my kids all went through—finished. Some of them completely went through the North Franklin School District. The two oldest had a few years there in Eltopia. There actually was an old high school in Eltopia. But they closed it down, too. We used to have dances down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: The floors went up, and the floors went down, but we had an orchestra that did the playing. In the middle of the music they’d just stop. [LAUGHTER] We’ve laughed about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wait, why did they stop? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Just decided to stop! [LAUGHTER] And you’d be dancing away, all of the sudden the music just stopped. I don’t know. Probably had too much to drink. Everybody had to bring their own bottle, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And who put these dances on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, we sort of had a—hmm, I don’t know. Don’t remember that. Just—I don’t know—we didn’t have an association, particularly. It was just our local group around there decided, you know, like New Year’s Eve or something, is about when—it wasn’t all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Was the high school being used at that time, or was it just kind of an empty— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No, no, it was going downhill. And that’s what I said—the floors were warped because the roof had leaked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, my. Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. And so you had to watch your step. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I bet. So were these adults-only dances? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, it was adults only. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: That’s great. That’s really interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: We were involved—I had a 4-H club. Don coached Little League—yeah, Little League, down in Eltopia. We had a team, because our boys played on that. We were big boosters of Connell High School, because all our boys—Clint played—my one son played in the NFL for nine years. The other boy was the one we thought was going to be the NFL player. But he wanted to farm more than play football. He’s the one that’s farming my place now. But our boys all participated in sports up there, so we were big sports boosters. Don helped build the bleachers. The old—we used to have our games down there in the—well, it was in the town of Connell. Since then it’s all moved up by the high school. But he helped build the bleachers into the side of the hill. He had a trophy case built for them. And then the boys went to CBC, both Clint and Curt. And we donated there, the foundation or whatever it is. Still do—Clint still supports that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Did you or your husband go to college? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Don did for a year. He was going to be an engineer. I went to college at night school for a while, but I never got a degree, no. I came out of a high school in Portland that you learned bookkeeping, shorthand, and so when you graduated, you also had a degree—you had English and a language and everything else—but you could go out and get a job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And then they had Benson at that time for the boys where they learned how to—you know, like shop and things like that. And then they did away with that; we don’t have those kind of things anymore. Big mistake. I think we should still have those type of—because some kids are just not college material. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: To be able to go out and work and do something when you come out of high school. Because kids nowadays, they need work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right. To have a trade or at least to have—maybe have post-high school schools that are geared for trade instead of— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, instead of—because when you come out of high school now, what do you have? You don’t have a trade of any kind, or a skill of any kind. Except supposedly your brain, and then you got to go on to another four-year school, and you’re still—if you want to really amount to anything, that isn’t adequate now either. And then we wonder why we have such high debt for these kids that are—[LAUGHTER]—you know, trying to get a college education or get a trade or whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. Oh! How did you meet your husband? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Uh-oh. [LAUGHTER] Do I have to tell you the true story? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Well if it’s racy or saucy, then yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: For the good of history. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Okay, well-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I’m just kidding. Whatever you’re comfortable with. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, every year in Portland at the beginning of the football season, they would have sort of a roundabout where each high school came and played a quarter or something against another one of the other teams. I had been a cheerleader at my high school. This is since I had graduated, and I’d started to work. I went to work at 16 for the Soil Conservation Service in Portland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, really? Okay. Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So, my girlfriend and I decided that we were going to go to this celebration—the football thing—that night. So I took a bus and I got off the bus where I was to meet her. And Don and a friend were standing there on the corner. He was enrolled at the—is it University of Portland is the Catholic school down there, or Portland U? No, it’s University of Portland, yeah. Anyway, he’d just started college there. So he tried to strike up a conversation, and I—my mother told me never—[LAUGHTER]—Don’t do those kind of things. I’m just kidding. But anyway, I wouldn’t talk to him. I walked across the street to meet my friend, and we had to walk back in front of him to get back on the bus to get to where we were going. He says, why don’t you let us give you a ride? And I said, no. I said, we’ll just take the bus. So we did. We got on the bus. So they ran around, got in their car, and they followed our bus over to the stadium. Later in the game, I went down and was sitting on the bench with my friends from my high school there. And around the corner walks Don. That was the beginning of the end. He said, well, as it turned out we had a mutual acquaintance—my girlfriend did. So we went to the dance at Portland University that night with them. And that was the end of me ever dating anybody else. Next day, he called me and—[LAUGHTER] So. And it was ironic because my son, Clint, you know, played for Mouse Davis down there, and years later he played in that stadium. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] I call that sort of ironic coincidence, that years later we came back to the place where we actually engaged in a conversation that night. Anyway. So it was a pick-up, I guess you’d say. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. Sounds like he was pretty persistent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, he wasn’t very talkative. But I was impressed. He was pretty good-looking. [LAUGHTER] I liked what I saw. So anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: That’s—aww. And was he drafted, then? You said he was in the Air Force. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, he was in the reserve. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And he got—it was the Korean situation, and he got called up. So we were married just as he—right after he got called up, his commander was gracious enough to give him a couple of days off to have a honeymoon for—what did we have? Three days or something, when it was supposed to be boot camp. He happened to then be stationed at the Portland—there in Portland, for almost a year. And then he got orders to go to Nashville, Tennessee. So we up and moved. I went with him. Didn’t have any children then. We went to Tennessee for less than a year, I think, before we came back. And when we came home, we went to Condon, Oregon and Don went to work for a wheat farmer there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay. So he was drafted in Korea, but didn’t—he never— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: He never served overseas, no. He never had to serve overseas. He was a lineman—supposed to be his—whatever, what do they call it? His MO, or whatever? It was supposed to be—oh, I don’t know—what’s the second in command? I don’t know. Anyway, they found that he had been a telephone lineman at one time, so that’s what he ended up being, was a telephone lineman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Do you—when you were homesteading out there, did you have any run-ins or—well, not run-ins is the right word, but interactions with Native Americans who would have inhabited that area long before? Did you ever see, or were you ever aware of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No, there was nothing. The only thing, we found a couple of arrowheads on our place once. No. Some old sheep camps, we found some things in that, but there was no—no, there was no indication of any— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: From earlier settlement days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: How has farming changed over the years for you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, my gosh. Well, what are we talking here? ’54 to—is that 60-what? ’62 years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: 60 years, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Phenomenal, I guess, would be my word. Equipment-wise. Everything now if possible is circles, for irrigation. Tractors are—how many times bigger should I say than what we started out with? My son owns a quad-trac, which—I don’t know, what are they? $280,000 or $300,000-some-odd and it’s monstrous. You have GPS now; everything is—you plant by that. I guess—I don’t really have a word to—I guess express how much it’s advanced. Planters are all—well, just like we planted some beans this year, trying to find out something else besides hay to plant. This guy just pulls into field we had with timothy hay, and you don’t have to disc, you don’t have to do anything. He just sets down, and he’s got things that open it up to plant the seeds, so you don’t have to worry about the wind problem you used to. It used to be, we had horrendous winds and dirt. You’d plant a crop, and you’d pray that you didn’t get one of those winds or it’d be gone—the seed would be gone. A lot of replanting back in the old days. We could look towards block 15 and see this wall of dirt coming at us. Yeah. One of the windstorms hit 90 miles an hour here. It blew down the drive-in screen in Pasco. It blew the side out of a block building. And we were in that tent. My husband said, load the kids up, we’re going to town. We’re not going to be here when it goes down—if it goes down, is what he said. So we loaded up the kids, drove to town, spent the whole day in town. As the day—as the sun started to set, the wind went down and we headed back out there and didn’t know if there would be anything left of everything we owned in the world because it was all in that tent. And it was still standing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But he had a pretty hefty crossbeam—is that what you call it, the main deal at the top? But he said it put a permanent bow in it, though. That wind against that canvas. So he took that thing down and put up a four-by-six by himself. How he did that, I don’t know. But he says, not going to have that happen again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And then we had just a few incidences of some of the things that happened out there. We had a winter that first winter when we still in the tent. My husband was doing land-leveling. He got this D7 Cat and he was out working for other people, leveling their ground. That day, it was a beautiful day, that day. When he got off the Cat, he started home, and for some reason he turned around, and he drained that Cat. Because there was no antifreeze. We didn’t have antifreeze in it. That night, it dropped to 19 below. I don’t know—we’ve never, ever had that happen again. Don stayed up all night. We had a wood stove in that tent, and we had an oil stove. He had both of them cranked up as high as they would go. The next morning, he reached over, and we had packing cases for cupboards. He reached over for the coffee pot, and when he got it, it was all slushy, after he—and it wasn’t that far away from the stove. [LAUGHTER] And sagebrush—he was burning sagebrush in the wood stove. That puts out a hot fire. So decided it was time to move. And I was working at the Bureau then, so we were entitled to one of their Quonset huts down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So we picked up and moved that day. And it was wonderful not to have a roof flapping in the breeze, and it had running water, and I had wall—baseboard heaters, and they paid the bill. You could be as warm and toasty as you wanted. So I was in seventh heaven. [LAUGHTER] We lived there until—well, then I got—while I was working there, I got pregnant with Curt. And the Bureau wrote us a little letter, saying, you have not proved up on your land. You had to put in 12 months out of 18 to establish residency. And said, if you don’t move back on your unit, you’ll forfeit it. We didn’t have a house, didn’t have anything. So went to town, and started tearing down—we called them Navy homes. I don’t know. Somebody said they were Victory homes or something. They had a lot of them in Pasco, they had a lot in Kennewick. He and his dad went in there and they tore—we got enough money from the bank to tear down a section of that housing, and used all the materials out of that for our house. When we moved in, the eaves weren’t boxed in, the sub-floor was the roof, like, slats. So the dirt just settled between the slats. And we had no running water again, because we didn’t have a well. And I found a rattlesnake in my closet one day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh my. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] Came home from town, and I walked in to take off my blouse and hang it up in the closet. And I heard this noise, and I thought—out of the corner of my eye—I thought, there’s a snake. But it had curled up on top of a suitcase. We had no bathroom—we had an outhouse. Had no bathroom, and he found his way into our bedroom there, and the light—the sun was coming through the bedroom window, and he was sunning himself. He’d crawled up on this suitcase in an old army hat that Don had laying on top of the suitcase. And he was telling me, you’d better back off. I screamed, I said, there’s a rattlesnake in here! And Don says—he didn’t believe me, he thought I was having pipe dreams. He told everybody afterwards I made a new door out of the bedroom, which I did not. But anyway, he grabbed a weed fork and killed it. Believe me, we stepped out of bed gingerly for a while, thinking where you find one, you usually find two. But we could see where he’d come up through the—we had the sewer pipe laid for the bathroom that was not in. And the kids had been out there playing in the dirt with their trucks and stuff. He had a piece of tar paper thrown up against it and some dirt that he’d thrown up against it. Well, they’d knocked that down and that snake found that pipe, and he decided that was a nice cool place to be in. Yeah. We had quite a—in fact, we have a big rock bluff behind my farm unit there to the east. And the people at the Bureau called that Rattlesnake Mountain. In the spring, they’d go out there, and when they’d come out of their dens they’d kill a lot of snakes. So we encountered rattlesnakes off and on quite a bit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: We were pretty worried with our kids that they might get bitten. We actually went to town and got a kit—not the normal kind—it had a hypodermic needle or whatever. Whether I could have used it [LAUGHTER] I don’t know. We had to keep it in the refrigerator. But just in case, because we were a long ways away from a doctor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But anyway, didn’t happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: That’s good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier; Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And now how—when, roughly, was your house built? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, it was built in stages. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: When did it— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, right as Curt was born, which was 1957. ’57. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And is that still the same—is that house still out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: It is. Only we’ve added on to it. You’d never know what part of it is built out of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: It’s all bricked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. I have a fairly nice home. It’s nothing luxurious or anything, but it’s very comfortable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And you have roads out there now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, we’d better have. But that was something, when you didn’t have any roads, I’ll tell you. They were putting them in, but they were just the bases. I remember one day, our neighbors across—that turned out to be our neighbors across the road on Holly Drive—we saw this truck with all of their stuff loaded on it pull in over there. We thought, wow, are we getting a neighbor here? But they pulled in and dropped off a bunch of stuff and then took off again. So we jumped in our car and we followed them to find out who they were, and were they going to be our neighbors, and whatever. Because we were excited that we had another human being that was going to be that close to us. That was Johnsons. Were our neighbors for years and years. They both since have passed away. Don and I were probably eight to ten years younger than the majority of the people that settled out there, because they were World War II veterans, many of them. So we’re losing them one by one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, most of them are—well, just lost one down the road here. He was 93, I guess. Year before last. He was a bomber pilot in World War II. Flew 70-some-odd missions, and made it through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: That’s really incredible odds. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I did his eulogy at the church, and—those guys really—anyway, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So working out at Hanford, you would have been privy to—you would have known what was produced there. Did you ever feel—how did you feel about making your living off the land so close to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I never worried about it. Some people tried to prove, or think that they got thyroid cancer, whatever. But I—working in the monitoring, I knew they were monitoring the milk. They monitored milk, anybody that was dairying out there. Plus, they had instrumentation across the river. They were monitoring the river itself. However, you never knew what the figures were. I mean, I—yeah. But I really never worried about it. But maybe out of ignorance, in a sense. Not really, it’s not like, I guess, Chernobyl or something, where you had—although you had reactors out there. But a lot of them were not even active at that time, even. But there were a few, wasn’t there the—was it Fast Flux? I don’t know. I worked on that project, trying to save that Fast Flux Facility. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Really? So in the ‘80s, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. Who was the commissioner? Yeah, I got involved in that. That was a travesty that they ever destroyed that, simply for the fact that medical isotopes—they had no idea what they could have engineered from that reactor that would have helped in the medical field. The dream was the guys that knew—he since has died, too. He moved to Portland. That if you had cancer, you’d go in, and you’d sit down, and they’d do, I guess, an injection. Sort of, probably, like chemo now, but in 15 minutes you’d be out of there. The possibility was there to make medical isotopes. If you know what medical isotopes are. I’m not a scientist, but because of the way the Fast Flux—it was one of a kind in the world, I think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. How did you become involved in the committee to save it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I don’t remember who got me into that. [LAUGHTER] I don’t remember. Claude Oliver, for one, was active in that. Wanda Munn, who is still alive, and she’s still—yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah, I’ve— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I know Wanda and I talk to her quite often and she was very active in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. She was very supportive. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I just went down to the office and did what I usually do, you know. Write thank-you letters for donations and filing and that kind of stuff. But I was very interested; I thought it was a very good project that our government—all the money that had been expended thrown down the toilet, to put it bluntly. I see in the paper they’re going to use one of the warehouses they built, though, to store the sludge or something. Did you see that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I didn’t. I do know that our collection that we manage—the Department of Energy’s Hanford Collection, which is a historic collection of artifacts and archives gathered onsite that document history, and that’s actually stored in one of the Fast Flux Facility warehouses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Is it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. We’re moving everything out, but I go up there once or twice a week to do work on the collection, yes. It’s one of those warehouses that was built for Fast Flux. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I hadn’t read about storage of waste. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, sludge or something. So they can—I don’t know—something about the tanks, they can put it in there? Something that had been built for the Fast Flux reactor. So at least maybe something’s being—[LAUGHTER]—what should I say? Salvaged. But anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin:Um, what do you recall about living in the Cold War—during the Cold War era? Especially—was there any sense of danger or even pride living so close at Hanford or working at Hanford, given its role in the US nuclear weapons arsenal during the Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, all that was sort of over with when I was out there. No, it was a job, and it was money. [LAUGHTER] Better money than I could make anywhere else. And the people were great to work with, and they were always interested in what we were doing out there. You know, you would have thought being of the scientific community and whatever—completely different ideas than being a farmer. But you know what? It’s interesting—there’s always a bit of farmer in everybody. Have you ever realized that? I mean, guys particularly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Well, I grew up on a farm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I know that’s what you said, but it seems like no matter what they’re line of work is or whatever, there’s always this curiosity about farming and what to do and whatever. I used to have a lot of questions. They always treated me very well. I really hated to quit out there. Because I enjoyed the people. I enjoyed getting away from the farm, and the worries and the whatever. I could go to work and have a different scenario for the day, you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right, right. So when you were out there, you—all of the children were with your husband? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: No, I hired a babysitter. She had to come to the house, because I couldn’t get five kids up—I had to leave at like seven in the morning, something, to be to work. We started earlier than 8:00. What was it? I don’t know what time I had to leave, but she had to come to the house and get the kids dressed and whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Was that a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Don was not a babysitter. [LAUGHTER] He had better things to do, you know. No, I had to hire someone to come in. And sometimes you wondered if—that’s when I finally decided that I needed to quit and come home, because there’s a fine line there about whether you’re really—how much are you contributing here, when you have to pay someone to look after your children, cost of getting to work, better clothing—had to dress better—you know, all these things you got to factor in. It was better when I did come home, because my husband—he liked conversation and people. So he sometimes got sidetracked at the neighbors’ and stuff when I thought he should have been home doing some things. So when I finally came home for good, it was better. Things improved. [LAUGHTER] In my eyes, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, it was lonely out there if you were—he just liked, as all farmers do, they like to talk a lot. They still get together. We’ve had some restaurants up there at the corner, and that was the gathering place every morning, the coffee shop and all the BSing that goes on. They’ve come and gone. So now we have a small Mr. Quick’s up there, and some of them still meet up there. Yeah. Got to compare notes, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, yeah. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: A lot of things to talk about, I’m sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: How—you mentioned, especially when you were growing some of the other crops, maybe not the hay, but like the corn and potatoes—how—did you rely on migrant labor at all? Or have you noticed--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: We did in asparagus, but they really—the families we had I don’t think were migrant. They came from California every year. We furnished housing for them. When amnesty was declared, that’s when we tore out the asparagus. The next year, it was—well, they got better jobs, they stayed in California, they didn’t come back. The people we were getting were not—well, that’s when they also made the deal that if—before, you paid by what they cut a day. I guess you’d call it piecework. They could make good money. But then they said, okay, if they don’t cut enough to equal so much an hour—and I forget what the minimum wage was or whatever it was—then you’ve got to pay them that. So you had to keep track of both things. Well, then you started getting people that would start at the top of the road, and they’d get to the bottom of the road, and then they’d sit down on their box or whatever they had down there and smoke a cigarette. They didn’t care if they made—yeah. They got paid so much no matter what. The caliber of people changed drastically. We got a crew leader or something out of Texas to bring us people, and that was not good. So we just decided to tear it out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: That’s when you went to a more mechanized--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, yeah. Just planted other crops. When we lost the sugar beet industry here, that was hard, because that was a very, very dependable cash crop. That hurt. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: What happened to the sugar beet industry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, they decided to pull the factory at Moses Lake out of here. So we had no place to ship the sugar beets. I think, took acres and stuff back to Idaho. So we lost our sugar beet industry here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Is there anything that I haven’t talked about that you’d like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, I don’t know. I don’t know what it would be, except that I think at the end of my composition in that book that I gave you there on the block, I just said I was so grateful for the opportunity that we had here. I think this probably was the last—what do I want to say—the last land that was opened up for development, like the Columbia Basin, the last project. We raised five great kids. They learned how to work. I’m proud of all of them. I just felt, being a city girl, my mother-in-law particularly didn’t think I’d ever make it, but I did. [LAUGHTER] It was a great opportunity. A lot of people didn’t stay. There were a lot of women that—it was hard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: It was hard out there. We had a couple of suicides. You’d get—yeah. I don’t know what else to tell you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Did your parents stay in Portland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: My dad had died early in life. My mother, yes. I was an only child. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: She lived in Portland, yes. And-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: What did she—oh, sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: That’s okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: What did she think about— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: --your going out to homestead in—I’m sure she thought it was— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Not too much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: --kind of the middle of nowhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Not too much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Did she ever come out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. She came up. She always came up whenever I had a baby and helped me. In some of the rougher years, so she knew what was actually happening. Of course, you know how you feel about your kids. You don’t like to see them—think that they’re being—what should I say—deprived. [LAUGHTER] And Don’s folks were very helpful. They—his dad came up and helped us many a time work on the house. She’d come up and do the cooking, since I was working. I’d come home to a meal, which was great. She made the best cinnamon rolls. My kids have never forgotten that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, she—anyway. Yeah, they—we also were in sheep. I guess I forgot to say that. We all had a—I used to do the lambing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah, we bought a bunch of old ewes, which was not the best idea. But that’s all—his dad and Don went together and bought this bunch of old ewes. And so we lambed—I think we had lambs for—or we had sheep for—what? I don’t know, maybe five, six years. We never were much of a livestock people. My husband, when he was young, his dad went to some auction or something, came home with some milk cows, and Don got the job of milking the cows. He says, I’m never having a milk cow, and we never did. [LAUGHTER] We had a guy actually delivering milk out to the farm, come to think of it. And he left a big supply everyday with the boys I had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Wow, yeah, I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I ended up with four boys and one daughter. My daughter’s a school teacher here in Kennewick. Has been for umpteen years. And Brett works at Battelle, my youngest. Curt and Clint and Chris—Chris is my oldest—they all are in the farming deal out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: And Clint’s a local politician, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, yes. Yeah. He thinks he has to try to make a difference. But anyway, it’s a rough go. But he’s determined—stubborn. [LAUGHTER] No, I admire him for his, I guess, bravery, because it is—you do have to be brave. You take a lot of flak, I’m going to tell you, and a lot of—after he loses, which he has, takes him a while to recover. It’s a rejection, is what it is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Yeah. That’s understandable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: And then he takes a bit to regroup, and turns around and comes back for another go at it. And I tell him, I said, I don’t understand you, Clint. [LAUGHTER] Anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Well, great, well, thank you so much, Alice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: I probably talked your leg off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Nope, my legs are still here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, I don’t know what else I could tell you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Did anyone else have any questions? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Oh, I could—I guess I should have told you, I did a lot of tractor work. I was not just a housewife. I ran almost every piece of equipment, except I never ran the stacker or—but I drove tractor. Did cultivating. Never rode a—I never ran a potato harvester, of course, but I worked on enough of them sorting potatoes. You know when you’re digging in the field? I’ve eaten a lot of dirt in my day. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Tom Hungate: Did you ever notice a difference, was there a boys’ club that you kind of had to work through? Or was it just you were a good worker and so you were accepted as a worker on the farm? Or there weren’t enough people even to judge you as a woman out there working on a farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. Most all the women out there—not every woman worked in the field, but the only one that I worried about judging me was my husband. [LAUGHTER] Which, sometimes—[LAUGHTER]—I would pull something that wasn’t—I mean, do something that wasn’t too good. We had a big windstorm one night, and I thought I had to go down—we did have wheel lines at the far end of our place, down in—well, it sloped down pretty readily there. And those wheel lines, if you don’t block them, will take off in the wind and tear them all up. So the guys headed down there, and I thought I had to go down and help. Well, the first thing I did was run over the pipe that hooked into the main line. [LAUGHTER] I got told, why don’t you just go to the house? Because I hadn’t helped the situation any. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Emma Rice: Another thing I was kind of thinking, did you have anything else to add about being kind of a working mom in the 1950s and ‘60s— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Rice: --to watch over your own [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Well, funny you ask that question, because I have granddaughters now that are—well, I have two granddaughters that are CPAs. One just moved—she was working out here on the Project, and she just moved to South Carolina. And I look back on the days when I was working, and they never come again. You’ve lost some of the years of your kids’ life. As things happen, when they learn—when they walk, when they—first time they do something. And not being—and I remember I came home, and I was so tired. I gave my best at work, and there wasn’t a whole lot left over at the end of the day. And I know I was cranky. [LAUGHTER] And I just think sometimes—I’m sort of like my granddaughter, I kept wanting to—each time I got a promotion, it was—how do I want to put that? Not a feather in my cap, but made me feel worthy—more worthwhile, or whatever. I enjoyed working, I admit that. But I just look back on it now as—I’m going to be 85—August. I think, was it really that important? And I wish, maybe, some of our younger generation had the benefit, maybe, of my years later on the road. That’s just my— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Rice: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But I have thought about that a lot. Whether I would have done it any differently at the time, because we needed the money. But sometimes we get—we forget what’s most important in our life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: I agree. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Rice: Yeah, great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: So what we might do now is—we’ll maybe have you kind of narrate some of these, some of the items you brought along. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: Where you go across it, when I was— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: But with these—this is hay we’ve laid down, and I thought it was quite—yeah, there. I thought it was sort of a neat view of how things look now, compared to that other slide you’ve got there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Franklin: Right. Yeah, no, that’s really— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> Didier: So I don’t know if you want me to bring in that picture or not, so you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX146332551"> </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:10:43 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1960 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Didier, Clint Didier, Don Didier, Curt Didier, Chris Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alice Didier Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Eltopia (Wash.) Connell (Wash.) Agriculture Irrigation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/12/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-12: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Description An account of the resource An interview with Alice Didier conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/15">Alice Didier Oral History Metadata</a> 300 Area Connell (Wash.) Eltopia (Wash.) Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8fd2a955bab5ca49f4c116afc3f3dcde.JPG babb31b987d1e2e7508918ac0c28f0f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sharon Kent Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Robert Franklin: Okay, let’s go. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Sharon Kent on July 26, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Sharon Kent about her experiences growing up in Richland. So, I—the best place to start is at the beginning. So when and where were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Sharon Kent: When was I born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In 1941. I was born in Salt Lake City. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we were one of the first people that moved into Richland. In fact, we lived in Moses Lake and Sunnyside until the prefabs were built. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. So coming to Richland at that young of an age, you had to have had family that worked at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: My father worked here, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Then what did he do at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I think he was a policeman at that time, but I’m not sure. I know he was a policeman, and when he retired he was a safety engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So he had several different jobs then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When did he retire? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he died in 2000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. He lived for quite a long time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. And probably 1980 would be my guess, but I really—I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, well— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Whatever 65 was, he retired. And he was born in 1913. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. ’76. So needless to say, he spent most of his career out—he had a long career at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, wow. That’s really—and did he have any other jobs besides policeman and safety engineer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you mean a side job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Any other job, any other careers out there or jobs out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: At Hanford, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No? Okay. Do you know how your father found out about—what was he doing before he came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He was at a plant in Utah and a lot of people came from it. I can’t remember the name, but a lot of people came from that particular plant. I don’t know if they went there. I guess they went there and told people about it and a lot of them came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you know what kind of plant it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, I don’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Did your father talk much about his work as a policeman? Maybe not during the time, but after, did he talk about where he patrolled or anything interesting he saw, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. Not that I can remember. We just talked about—what I remember, one time he said—this is probably too far—but somebody asked him if he knew what they were doing here. And he gave this answer and he says, sir, don’t say that to anybody. [LAUGHTER] So he’d figured out pretty close what they were doing. But I—you know—I don’t know. We just—I was young enough that—in fact, my first memory is the day that Japan surrendered in the Second World War. I can remember we were lived in a prefab, and the sirens were going. They had sirens at noon and different sirens. And my mother and all the people were outside yelling. I can remember my mother says, our brothers are coming home, our brothers are coming home! And that’s my first memory. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So I don’t remember any of the problems people had during the war with lack of this and that. Just the prosperous time. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. What size of prefab did you live in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We lived in a three-bedroom, and because we lived in a three-bedroom, at one point they had a gentleman living with us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I don’t remember that. But right at the very end, before we moved—just before we moved, Mother had the third baby. And we didn’t have anybody living with us. And I remember—it must have been a peach orchard, because I remember peach trees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. That makes sense, because most of the prefabs were on the western side of Richland at that time which had been orchards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And I’ve heard stories from other people about all of the fruit orchards that were there in that side of town. So where did your family move to after the prefab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We moved to 321 Goethals, which is now 321 Jadwin. And that was an H house. And that’s pretty close to—[LAUGHTER]—I forgot the school. Lewis and Clark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we were real close to—there was a market there and a gas station. I remember—we didn’t have freezers in our home then. So there was just one house between us and the market, so we would rent a space in the freezer and go get it. I remember going in there once and pushing the alarm button. [LAUGHTER] Oh, kids! I thought, oh, boy. I was a pretty good kid, but I—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you know it was an alarm button? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I did. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, a troublemaker. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not usually. [LAUGHTER] Not usually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How long did your family live in the H house for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the family—I got married in 1959—the end of ’59, and they were still there. They moved out of the H house when—let’s see. Sterling was three years old, and he was born in 1966. So ’69. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. So then your family purchased the H house after Richland— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, they did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: After Richland became a [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: They did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you know offhand how much they would have paid for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: What comes in my mind was $7,000. My husband-to-be lived around the corner and up a ways, and his two-bedroom prefab, I believe, was between $2,000 and $3,000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. So you grew up next to—how did you meet your husband-to-be? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he lived, like I say, close by, but where we actually met was at church. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: There was a group of people that—young people that would get together, because there were soldiers here. And then there were people like my husband that had been in the Korean War and had their education and they still weren’t married. So there were a lot more men than there were women. So one summer when a lot of the girls left, they went down to a younger age girls that were part of this group. My husband happened to be the oldest, and I happened to be the youngest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How much older was your husband? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 13 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, that’s what my mother said. [LAUGHTER] But she didn’t know how old he was until—at the reception. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. What age were you when you met him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Met him? I was 15 or 16. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How long after that did you get married? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I got married at 18. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Interesting. And then did you settle in Richland after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. My husband was working—I don’t remember—GE. Then it was GE. And we got married in December, and in September we left. My husband got a full fellowship for Berkeley in health physics. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So we went there and then when we came back, we came back and came back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When would you have left? Do you remember what year that would have been? When you left to go—sorry—when you left to go to Berkeley? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 1960. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So then Richland had passed into private. So tell me—I imagine that leaving—because you—so you were born in Salt Lake City, but really your formative years were in Richland. I imagine moving to Berkeley would have probably been quite a culture shock. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, it was very different, that was for sure. My in-laws lived close by and my brother-in-law worked at Berkeley as a paleontologist. So we saw them often, and that helped a great deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How so? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Just knowing family was close by. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I didn’t feel like I’d just been let off. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Can you describe some of the ways in which Berkeley was different from—or some of the kind of maybe new experiences or differences that you encountered at Berkeley? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the buildings were a whole lot older. And we lived in a very old two-story house, and we had the basement apartment. I remember we went to Goodwill or something like that and got one of those wringer washing machines and hung the sheets out. But my husband knew his way around and this type of thing. So it was a much bigger city—much bigger area. When we settle in a place, we go and take advantage of it. So we saw a lot and did a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So your husband was from the area, then, originally? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. He was born in San Francisco. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. And how did he get to Richland originally? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know; when he graduated from Berkeley with a physics degree, he somehow got to Richland. I don’t— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, I guess GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And he’d been in the Korean War before that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He was in the Korean War, and he did that so his education was paid for. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He knew that—you know, that was the way to get an education. His brother was already in the Korean War, so he didn’t have to join, because there were just the two boys. And if one’s in the war, the second one doesn’t—you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Doesn’t get drafted. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But he wanted to get an education, and this was the way to get it. And he said it worked for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin; Do you know what he did when he was in the Korean War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. He repaired Sabrejets—the radar equipment in Sabrejets. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So he was about 55 miles from the line. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Backing up a bit, what did your—did your mother have a job at Hanford or working during the war or after the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. When I was a teenager, they called and begged her, begged her and begged her. She says, I don’t want to go to work. I have children. And to work in one of the libraries. So she went to work and it turned out she enjoyed it. And I remember there was a graduate school—somehow there was schooling there. It wasn’t a campus like this, but she worked in that library. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I remember I could go with her sometimes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And how long did she work there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know. I know then she went out in the Area and then she worked in the Richland City Library. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What do you mean, out in the Area? You said then she went out in the Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She worked for Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, she worked for Battelle, okay. Out onsite. Or at the--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That’s what I thought. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m not—I could make mistakes, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, no, that’s totally understandable. And then you said she worked for Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Richland City Library, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So how long did you and your husband live in Berkeley for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: One year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Just one year? Okay. Then what happened after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Then we came—oh. He decided—he got his degree in physics, and he got his fellowship in health physics, and that wasn’t the right field. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So he came back in physics, and then as soon as computers came to the Federal Building, he went into computers. And that was definitely his thing. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Then he worked with computers for the rest of his career? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. So those would have been the days of punch cards and the—yeah. What did—you said he worked with computers; do you know a little more about what he did in the Federal Building with the computers? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. All I know is—well, I remember my daughter, my youngest daughter was old enough to remember the incident. They let us go down, and it was in the basement of the Federal Building. We couldn’t go into the room, but they had these white coverall things on, and it was temperature-controlled and everything. And she was old enough to remember. That was the first computer I saw. That was my youngest child, so—[LAUGHTER] And then it wasn’t too much longer before we had a computer in our home. And my husband said, this runs circles around what was in the Federal Building. But at the time, the Federal Building, it was phenomenal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. So was it a large mainframe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Rooms and rooms—yeah. Room after room after— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. Do you have any siblings? I forgot to ask. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I do. I have two sisters and three brothers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Older, younger—or where are you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m the oldest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You’re the oldest, okay. So were they all born in Washington? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, my sister that’s younger than me, she was also born in Salt Lake City. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. And the others were born in Washington? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, and what’s the age difference between you and your youngest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Youngest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 19 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh my. That’s a good span. And how many children did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I have five. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Five children as well. And you said your son was born in 1966? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: ’60. Oh—the third son—or the fourth son was ’66. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The oldest was 1960. And then I had four sons and then in 1972, we had our daughter, and she was born on the first day of school that my youngest went to first grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] So I’ve never had much alone time until the last ten years, after my husband died. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Finally some peace and quiet in the house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. I’m surprised that you haven’t asked me about what life was like when I was a child. I had some interesting— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I was getting there, but please, take over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No, no, no, go ahead. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, what I remember was before the houses were owned, there were no fences. So there were no big dogs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You just—you didn’t own your yard, so you just walked through and everybody—you know. We just walked through the middle to go to the grocery store and whatnot. And I liked it that way. I didn’t have any problems with the neighbors. Some other people did but, I, myself, didn’t. It was just so different once they bought the houses and built these fences. Of course, then, that’s when the big dogs come in. Before, they weren’t—you know. There weren’t the big dogs—I don’t remember—where I lived. There were cats and we had a dachshund that we kept in the yard—you couldn’t just let them run. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, so I guess they would have been indoor pets a lot of the time. Because without the fences they could just run off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, to me, it just made such a huge difference once those fences went up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, I bet. Well— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was just a whole different feeling. It wasn’t near as warm and friendly. Whereas—and then there were a lot fewer people then, too. You know, you felt like you knew everybody. In fact, I think it was only about 20 years ago before I went anywhere that I didn’t see somebody that I knew. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] And then all of the sudden I go places all the time that I don’t know somebody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, right. What about—I guess it’s interesting to hear you say that, with this lack of fence—because we, nowadays, we associate fences and things like that, with the feeling of security and privacy. But you’re saying, at least for you as a child, it was much more of an open, friendly feeling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, that’s what it was to me, but like I—you know. Nobody teased me. I had a brother that got teased something fierce, but nobody bothered me. So it felt good to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: To just kind of be able to wander around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And what did you do for fun, growing up, what kinds of activities did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, we went swimming. My dad enjoyed swimming and they had a pool down in Howard Amon Park. They had the little pool and then they had the big pool. If you went to the big pool, you had to be a certain age—I can’t remember—if you went without your parent, and you could only swim for one hour. But if you were with an adult, you could swim all the time. And there just happened to be a lady that lived across the street that liked to swim that didn’t have any children that liked to take us. So we didn’t have to stand in line, we just went in and swam as long as we could. I always loved the river, and swimming was something I did a lot of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Was the pool in the river, or close to the river--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Close to the river. You know where that little pool is now at Howard Amon Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was right close to there. And the tennis courts—my husband and I played on the tennis courts. I’m sure that they have renewed the surface, but it’s the same place as when my husband and I played. And he claims we played at 115, but I keep saying the weather man never says it got that hot. But it was plenty hot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I’m sure it felt like 115. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We—you know, there was no air conditioning. There were swamp coolers, but my mother had asthma, so we couldn’t have a swamp cooler. So I felt very put-upon until I got married and my husband had a wall air conditioner. I just thought I was in the Ritz. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we had an interesting—we were in Lewis and Clark, and supposedly there were a canoe out there that was decayed. And supposedly, it was from Lewis and Clark, I think. My brother’s wondering if it wasn’t from the Wanapum Indians. But the other thing, we had a principal named Lee Carlson. And he went around traveling around the United States. He was a rock hound, and he got these big, big blocks of the state rock. And on George Washington Way—oh, just north of Lee, on the east side, I—oh, yeah, it was a theater, the Liberty Theater. And anyway, they built this water fountain and had each one of these rocks from the state. And I’ve often wondered what happened to that, because it was very nice. I hope they put it somewhere, but if they have, I haven’t heard about it. Also, it wasn’t—then in those days, not very many people traveled that widely, so it was very interesting to—you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. Well, especially, I imagine, growing up in Richland, until ’58, the only people that could live in Richland were people—employees of Hanford. So I imagine that, as you were saying earlier, always knowing everybody, I imagine that would be exceptionally true in Richland where everyone you knew worked at Hanford, or was a family of someone who worked at Hanford. So the community had kind of a close knit feeling? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It did to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What else about your childhood strikes you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I was in high school when the houses sold. And other than the Globetrotters—anyway, I had hardly seen black people, other than when they came in town. They did a thing at Columbia High School that’s now Richland High School. And then the houses sold and four black families—maybe more than that—moved in. But anyway, they were in high school and the two brothers were CW Brown and I can’t remember his brother—Norris. And he was married to one of the girls. And the other brother, Norris, was engaged to other. They were really good at basketball and we got number one at state in basketball that year. There were other great men, too, but I don’t think anybody contested the fact that they were a big thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Big part of it. And I never saw any—I was raised without prejudice because I didn’t see it, if you know what I mean. And another interesting story is I went to high school with Sharon Tate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the incident I remember is I was in the bathroom, and there was a lady—well, a girl I guess, and anyway Sharon Tate was there by the sink. This big black girl asked her if she would help her, and she says, very graciously, said yes. I mean, you just didn’t see any prejudice. And that was my—so when I hear about this other stuff—in fact, people would come to our high school. This one girl just came from the South and was talking about all these murders and this kind of thing. I just hadn’t seen it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You mean during the Civil Rights era? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, right. Like I say, I saw no prejudice whatsoever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: It’s very interesting you mention Sharon Tate, because I used to ask that question of people who grew up here, and I’d never met anybody yet who had actually met her. So did you know her well, or did you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. I knew she was in high school. I never had a class with her. That’s the only—that was the closest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But she was very gracious. And everybody knew she was gonna be a movie star. She made no ifs ands or buts about that. And then she was Miss Richland, which was one of the last Miss Richlands. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, then, yeah, she moved away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She moved to Germany just a few weeks later. She knew when she became Miss Richland that she was gonna do that, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. And then of course you obviously remember the tragic event that happened to her. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In fact, I think I lived in California at the time. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I think I lived in Los Angeles County when it happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Did you have any other friends that knew her or had grown close to her, kept in touch with her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that I’m aware of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. That’s just interesting to have finally met somebody who actually had some sort of experience with her. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But I—what it was, was I was just really overwhelmed at her beauty and how gracious she was and patient. You know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s great. Do you remember—well, I guess you would have been gone for the Civil Rights activity in Kennewick. There were marches— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: What year was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: ’64, ’65. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We were back. Oh, no, we left again in ’65 and ’66. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But I don’t remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So I’m sure you’re—did you ever go much to the other two cities, Kennewick and Pasco, for any shopping or social events, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I know we did, but I can’t—and I remember when we passed East Pasco, you knew where the blacks live. There was one very lovely house that was a black man’s house. The other thing is, the whole time I was growing up, if I ever saw a Hispanic person, they were in the field, working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did any of them live in Richland to your recollection? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: If they did, I wasn’t—like I say, the only time I saw them was when we drove to Sunnyside and they were working in the fields, the whole time I grew up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And my daughter worked at Wiley School in Pasco, first grade, and the Hispanics live where the black community was now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So that has definitely changed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, Pasco is heavily Hispanic now. What can you tell me about civil defense growing up? Because you would have went to school and gone to school at the real high point of the Cold War-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Duck-and-roll? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, exactly. What can you tell me about what you remember about that and how it made you feel? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I can remember my father was in safety. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He also, on side jobs, he went around teaching first grade and things like that. So we were really into that kind of thing, and we were very safe. But I remember the duck-and-roll, and I remember the—oh, is it Jason Lee that was built, and it was a bomb shelter and whatnot? I don’t think Lewis and Clark was built that way. Jason Lee was built later. You know, we were told what to do. Exactly what it was, I don’t remember. But I knew that we knew we were vulnerable and we also grew up with the feeling that as soon as the war was over, the town would be taken apart. Which, obviously it wasn’t. And I think—I don’t know, but I have a feeling the Cold War really kept us in there a lot longer. Now we—[LAUGHTER] I remember hearing about it and learning about it. The other thing I remember was when I was young, Dr. Corrado came to the house and I had scarlet fever. He gave me one of the first shots of penicillin that they were giving the public. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was a thick green goo. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When was this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I was five, so it was ’46. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. That is very early. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Corrado at that point—well, these were—they worked for Hanford and it was very different. Different size and whatnot. And that was—big quarantine sign. It was by Christmas and, like I said, the grocery store was right there; it was Campbell’s then. And my father—our heritage is mainly Swedish—and my dad had invited all these people for lutefisk. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That Swedish delicacy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. And they put this quarantine sign up on our door. And this fish came in to the market and they call up, Mrs. Roos, you’ve got to come and get this fish. It stinks up the whole store! [LAUGHTER] So that’s one of my fun memories. I mean, it wasn’t fun for her, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you ever develop a taste for lutefisk? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well as a—a few years ago, when I was widowed—you know, they have the lutefisk festival every February or March at the Lutheran church, and I have a friend that is Finnish. So I called her up and I said, let’s go. And she said [GRUMBLING] but she went with me. Well, we had no idea where to go in this church, and we just laughed and said, well, we’ll just follow the smell. And by gum, there was no smell. They do it differently now. And it tastes like cod. I guess it is a cod, prepared. So we go almost every year now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we figured if anybody knew how to prepare it, it would be the Sons of Norway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. Yup. [LAUGHTER] That makes sense. Anything else about growing up that you’d like to—that comes to mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I remember when the fireworks down at—just below the high school on whatnot, that’s where we saw the fireworks. Then they had a baseball field down there at one time. But this was—I think I was an adult then. They had a team called the Triplets, which is similar to the Dust Devils. And I remember they gave out jackets and I still have my Triplets jacket. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the circus came to Sunnyside—the great big one—and we went there. Well, the other thing is, one of the first things that happened was the Richland Players. And Mother said, there was this man that was there on business and he had nothing to do that night but go to—so he went to the Richland Players. And he stayed over the next day to go and tell people how extremely impressed and surprised on how good they were. The community concerts came. Anything like that that came—they brought things in like that. I remember Ronald Reagan came. He worked for GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right, doing the promotional films, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, I remember going when he was here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Were you living here when President Kennedy visited to dedicate the N Reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That was in November of 1963. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I was, in fact— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: September, I think. Sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In fact, my brother was a Boy Scout. And he was right there and he got to shake his hand twice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you go to the dedication? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t remember that I did. I think I had a brand new baby or something. [LAUGHTER] But about—when we had a brand new baby in the ‘60s, we were going through one of those trees that you could drive through as President Kennedy was giving the oath of office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, in— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In California. In California. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The redwoods on the highway, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you remember President Nixon’s visit in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, I can’t say that I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s okay. I haven’t met anybody who has yet. I’ve seen pictures of him at Hanford, but I don’t think it was as widely touted as President Kennedy’s visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: He seems to have a little less mystique. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How was it, raising—I imagine that—I guess I’d like to ask you to reflect on maybe how the experience of raising children in Richland, and maybe how their experiences would have been different from your experiences growing up in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, that’s interesting. Well, we had fences. [LAUGHTER] And more multicultural. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How so? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, anybody of any race could move in. There were very few Asians and very few Hispanics. Hmm. That’s a good question, but—well, they still knew it was a nuclear situation. I don’t have a good answer to that, other than it was a nice place to live. We felt safe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s interesting. It’s interesting, I guess, for many people who might be—who might ever see this or who aren’t as familiar with Hanford to hear in the same sentence that there’s all this nuclear material being produced here but that it was also a very safe community. Did you ever feel any greater existential fear from the Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I didn’t. Well, not that I remember. I certainly didn’t when I was a child. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I think I was just so used to it, I don’t remember. But another thing I do remember about my kids and whatnot is when I grew up, everybody had the same furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, because it was government furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, and everything else. So when my kids grew up, we went to Bell Furniture. People had different furniture. And like I say, they had dogs and whatnot. More cars during—when I grew up, the men always went to work on buses. Everybody usually had a car, but they had one car. So as my kids that—a lot more people had two cars, and the bus system wasn’t near the thing that it was. Where I live now is right by where the bus barn is, and they just built that new facility and then they stopped using the buses. But I thought the buses were real nice, because you knew when your dad or your husband was coming home and this type of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. And probably a bit safer, too. Less cars on the road. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, and it—you know, a lot less—fewer of us had two cars when the husband had a way to work every day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. So then he wouldn’t need to drive—to take the car with him all the time. So how long did your husband work out onsite for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Until he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. How long was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he came in like ’56 or ’57. He was born in ’29. And he retired at 65. So—[LAUGHTER] what would that be? ’86? Or something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Kind of right when things were—production was starting to drop off. It says here that you’d been in the same house for 48 years on Saint Street? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: On Saint Street, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And is that an Alphabet House, or is that a newer— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, it was—we’re the only family that lived there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And it was a Stanfield-Nelson house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And—no, it was—we were gonna build in that area, and I hadn’t picked a plan yet. But we were on our way to buy a lot around the corner. And I said, hey, look, this house. Let’s go see if we can walk through. And we walked through, and I says, well, that’s what I want, build it over there. And they said, why not here? And I said, well, you’ve already picked up the carpet and whatnot. I’ll probably have one new house—I’m gonna pick out everything. They said, it’s on hold. And it was—I’m real glad I did, because I have four little boys, and they had all these things done—you know, the people that built from scratch—running into all these problems. And the cabinets were in, they were beautiful. They built them right in there. And they were beautiful; they were walnut—I loved walnut. And they did—and outside, the patio, there was a hole there and I said, I can’t have that. So they custom-built a beautiful bench that we sat on top of—you know, where the window was for the dryer. And I’ve been there 48 years, and there isn’t another house in the world I’d rather live in. I wish everybody felt that way about their house. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I wish I felt that way about my house, honestly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did any of your siblings ever go to work for Hanford— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: --end up staying in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, my brother Richard is here now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He would be somebody—and I forgot to bring his number—that would be interested. He works out on the grounds and keeping track of radiation from the animals and this type of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh. Wow, interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know—I think I can tell the story. This one man came to him and he said, there’s a building out there, and these people won’t let me go in and check on things. And he says, there’s some birds on top of this building. And he says, I had an idea that they have a lot of radiation, and they won’t let me in. So he and Richard went and said, we’re coming in. And the birds were full of radiation. By the time they decided what to do about it, they were in Argentina. [LAUGHTER] But he says, the saving grace is whatever kind of bird it was, it wasn’t the kind people ate for dinner. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. So— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: At least there’s that. It’ll have to work its way through another couple animals to get into the human food stream. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the other thing was when Rattlesnake Mountain—I have allergies. And when Rattlesnake Mountain burned, my allergies were the best they’d ever been. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? What is it that you’re allergic to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t really know. I’ve been here so long, I’ve just—but anyway, guess who was the one that had them helicopter to reseed it. My brother. [LAUGHTER] They came in with helicopters. I said, I don’t know about that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Since you’ve—we’ve talked a bit about how the neighborhood changed from—or how kind of the town changed from—in ’58 when things were—when they privatized, and you said some African Americans came in, fences came up, and things. How was—what changes have you noticed in your house now, where you’ve been living for almost half a century— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, yes. We were one of the first houses in that area. And where Lynnwood Park is now—I don’t know if you’re familiar with that—but anyway, when they put the park in, it was in the paper, and I think on the news, there was this big oval spot that they couldn’t get grass to grow. And Mark says, well, I know what that is. That was clayed in for water for the horses. There were horses out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. Like someone’s ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Only, what was interesting was the mobile home park was—this was my house, and this is where the horses are, and the mobile home park was up there. So anyway, he says, well, that’s what’s the matter with that. So, yeah, we were one of the first ones. So it’s really built up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, yeah, I imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And my kids—we moved there just before Sacajawea was built. So they went to Jason Lee, I believe. One day—the two older ones went to school; the two younger ones didn’t go to school yet. And they horsed around, and I didn’t have a car that day. So I told them get out and walk, and it was quite a ways. But they had only walked a couple of blocks and the bus that was picking up the kids more north was passing by. And they said, they’re from our school! So the kids said, we only walked a couple of blocks. [LAUGHTER] But they weren’t late again. [LAUGHTER] And then after that, they went to Sacajawea and then Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. And when was Hanford built? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I know they started—Mark was born in ’60, and he started junior high there. He was one of the first. I don’t think it was the first year, but it was pretty close. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Were you involved in any groups or social organizations when you were being a mother and raising children? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I was—one of the things—Robert Leduc was the superintendent of schools. And I was in a group called citizens for something-or-other. We met with Robert Leduc, I believe once a month. And I really enjoyed that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What did you do in this group? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We just discussed all kinds of things and gave our feelings. Only other person I can remember that was in it was Dr. Sara Gergel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And who was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She was a pediatrician. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. So I imagine this was school-related? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: This was all—this was Richland Schools. I can’t remember the exact title, but it was citizen—you know. And how they picked us, I don’t remember. I was also vice president of PTO at Sacajawea. We decided not to be PTA, so we were PTO. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, and why was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I know I was in a discussion, but I can’t remember. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What—is the O for organization? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Organization. For some reason, they didn’t want to join the PTA. Now I kind of laugh and wonder why, but we didn’t. I was in Girl Scouts, in fact there’s a house on Falley—George Washington Way and Falley—that was unused at that time. But it was owned by an uncle or something of—it was one of the old, original houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The pre-Manhattan Project? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. And anyway, we had Girl Scouts there. The building is still there and nobody—I don’t think it’s ever been occupied in all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh. And where—this was at--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It’s yellow. Fallow and George Washington Way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And Fallow? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Fallon? I think. It’s right at the end of downtown Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Hmm. Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m pretty sure it’s yellow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. I’ll have to look out for that next time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But—yeah—I know I enjoyed going to the things here and most things were free except—you know. They had a lot—GE had a lot of things for the people. I do remember the dust storms and the women didn’t like them. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Why is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, they called them termination winds. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, the women would clean up, and those winds would just seep into the house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Would these even happen when you were an adult? How long did these dust storms continue for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Until all the irrigation started. The more the irrigation, the less of this. And one of my sons—Sterling—was talking to me. He says, the other day, you know, when I grew up here it was very little humidity. He said, now there’s a lot of humidity and he says, if you’re out driving at five or six in the morning, there’s all this water going up in the air from sprinklers and whatnot, and it’s a lot more humid. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That’s a definite difference. But that hasn’t bothered me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. I imagine that—didn’t really think of that. Do you remember clearly when kind of the big irrigation projects were happening? Do you remember that—what kind of era that was, or decade? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not really. I remember going out and picking fruit from when I was a kid and when I had young kids. That’s what I remember. And asparagus and things like that. But I don’t ever remember it without all this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, okay. Interesting. What can you tell me about the history of the Latter Day Saints in the area? Was that—were there any Mormon settlers in the area before the Manhattan Project, or was the main bulk kind of brought in during World War II? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the main bulk was brought in, but—I don’t know if you know anything about Bickleton that’s out there. The Brinkerhoffs lived in Bickleton. And they came in, and he was the one that not too many years before he died and not all that long ago, he remembered as a child, there were bluebirds in Bickleton. So he did a project—oh, I don’t know how many years ago—20 or so, but not—where he made all these houses or had all these houses made, and now the bluebirds have come back to Bickleton. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You mean like birdhouses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. And where is Bickleton? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It’s not too far from here, but I’ll tell you—when we went there, I didn’t see any street signs or anything else. It’s just out, you know. My brother knew how to get there. I thought, well, I couldn’t drive there. There’s just—it’s farm and whatnot. He was saying, there’s a bluebird, there’s a bluebird, there’s a bluebird. But they were one of the families. But most everybody else came. And I can remember, we were in schools and whatnot and then in 1950, the steakhouse on Jadwin was built. At that time, we stayed a branch. And when the church was dedicated, we went in and we were divided into two wards—branches are usually quite small. Also, I was—the first baptism in that building was April of 1950, and I was baptized during that baptism. I know my mother didn’t want me baptized in December in that dirty, cold Yakima River, and I didn’t put up any fuss. [LAUGHTER] We’ve really grown since then, that’s for sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I imagine. Do you remember any—was there any sort of—did early LDS settlers or people who came come across any hostilities or were there any troubles between—any types of persecution or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, if there was, I didn’t see it. But I’m one of those that—I don’t—if something happens, I just walk away and it’s gone. So I didn’t see any of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I don’t remember my folks talking about that at all. We get in and we do things with the community. We usually are quite an asset, and I think we were looked at that way. One of the things I remember as a kid that I loved, that I really miss now was the Atomic Days—they had Atomic Days. One of the things that—they had floats, I mean gorgeous floats. I know Mother and Dad would work on these floats for Toastmasters and Toastmistresses. I remember all that crepe paper and whatnot. I miss those kind of floats. It was fantastic. They really put a lot of effort in that. I can’t remember what else but Frontier Days, but there was all—and I don’t know exactly when Art—first it was Sidewalk Show, for this, that’s coming up this Friday. And it was on the sidewalk in downtown. And then it’s turned into this big thing. And then it was local artists, and I’d—oh, I know her, I know her. And even as an adult when I was taking a lot of painting classes, I knew a lot of the people that were showing down there. Now, I don’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did your husband share a lot of what he worked on, or was there still a culture of secrecy that kind of persisted-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, no, he did not share what he worked on. But I do know that he was this kind that could be very isolated and very—so if there was something that people didn’t want to work on because it was tedious or they had worked on it for years and couldn’t solve it, they just handed it to him and gave him no deadline and he solved all the problems. That’s the only story I’ve heard. So he was very highly valued. Then his bosses, they honored him and this kind of thing—paid as somebody like that. And his bosses that were his age or a little younger, when they were retiring, says Roy, you’ve got to retire. This young guy does not have any respect for overpaid, old geezers. So he retired early—he retired at 65, where he would have gone to 70. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But they said, no, no. And it’s really a shame, because—you know. They lost a very valuable person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. All that learned experience on the job. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that I can remember at this time. I’m sure as I walk out, it’ll fill my head, but—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Lightbulb going off? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But it was a very happy experience for me. It wasn’t—my parents, I could see that—well, the other difference was between—everybody here, on vacation, always went home to their parents, because the parents didn’t live here. Whereas with my kids, my folks lived here. My husband’s folks didn’t, but my folks did. And that was a big difference. So when we went, we went to his folks’, but we weren’t trying to equal our time to both families. So also then we took time to go and do other things. That was a big one, to have the grandparents and the aunts and uncles here which my kids had and have really enjoyed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, that larger extended family structure would have been missing—or if your aunt or uncle didn’t work for Hanford, right, they wouldn’t live in the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, I have another funny story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: My folks, when they moved from Jadwin which turned into Goethals, at—there’s Jadwin in the Uptown, and then Williams, and then south of Williams, it wasn’t Jadwin, it was Goethals. Why it was that way, I don’t know. But then they—several years ago, they changed it so it was Jadwin all the way down. But anyway, when they moved from Goethals, they moved to Hains, which is across the street from the dike. They had that wonderful walking path, and if you haven’t walked on it, it’s marvelous. I just love to walk there. Anyway, one year, all these walkers were complaining to the City of Richland about the skunks, the skunks, the skunks. So they went in and got rid of a lot of them, and all of the sudden, all the neighbors were just covered with mice. But nobody was talking about it. I can remember my mother was real sick, and the cat came and dropped a dead mouse on her chest. My little daughter, who is real little, came in squealing with a mouse. And then she flushed it down the toilet. The neighbors just didn’t say a word ‘til it had gone on for quite a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So that’s a funny story. I mean, it wasn’t funny to my mother at all, and she certainly didn’t like the present the cat gave her. [LAUGHTER] She couldn’t believe that my daughter would run around with a mouse. Why they flushed it down the toilet, I don’t know, but that’s what she did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you remember the flood of ’48? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I do. In fact, it was on a Sunday morning, if I remember right. There was a friend and I—he was in the church, but he obviously wasn’t active and he was working at a tavern just south of what was Richland there, on the way to Richland Wye. And he went up to change a lightbulb and was electrocuted. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And, like I say, I switch the names around, so I don’t know what his name was. All I know is I knew him from church. But at that point he wasn’t very active. And yes, I do remember the flood, but not—that’s what I remember. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s what you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And that’s when they built the dike across from Hains and whatnot. But it didn’t get to our house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. And then they built what they called the Miracle Mile then as well—the long structure there to keep the water out. How else has Richland changed since you were—I mean, obviously there’s so many changes since you were small, when you first remember. But what else strikes you as— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, at first, until I was a teenager—it started a little before I was teen here—just downtown Richland. And then the end of Uptown was finished when I was 13. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The Uptown Mall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. The movie theater and Spudnuts were one of the first ones built and then the north end was finished when I was 13. That added a lot of stores and this type of thing. And more and more and more people, and—so, like I say we kept—well, I didn’t worry about it, but you kept expecting it to close up. I remember my dad saying, they found out that once a community like this can get over 100,000 then they can support themselves when that one plant moves out, and can survive. They won’t be what they were before. But I’m not worried about it finishing before I die, so—[LAUGHTER] Plus, I’m on pension and social security, so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Well, at this point, I don’t even—it’s hard to say when they’ll finish, given the task before them. It’s a really, really big one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, there is something that I’ve never figured out and they keep doing it. I remember my whole time when I was a kid and through the whole thing, is when they took a bid, they took the low bid. I don’t remember that there was ever once that it didn’t go way, way, way over. But they kept taking the low bid! They didn’t learn. And the other thing I don’t understand is, why, when somebody got the bid, why didn’t they say, you have to finish it at this amount of money? That, to me—now, if I was doing something on the site, I would have something in there like that. [LAUGHTER] It just never made sense to me, and they’re still doing it. Does it make sense to you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No. No, it doesn’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, because I think they lost out by taking low bids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, there’s definitely a—well, part of the issue is that, I think, that they’re spending taxpayer dollars and people want to know that they’re getting—that they’re going with the least expensive option. But if I’m understanding your point correctly, it’s that the least expensive option sometimes turns out not to be the least expensive option— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, it never did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: --if it’s not quality work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, I see, I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Or yeah, the nature of it is cost overrun. And yeah, there should be a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It always went way, way, way, way, way—I mean it wasn’t—it was way, way, way, way, way over there. And it never made a bit of sense. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, I’ve never heard of someone finishing a project at Hanford on time and under budget. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Or anywhere close to on-budget. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, they just—like the Vitrification Plant keeps getting delayed, and finishing the closing down of the Plutonium Finishing Plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Once they got the contract, they—they don’t always get to keep it forever, but—so I don’t know. That’s one thing that’s never made a bit of sense to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That actually—brings me to another question. Did you notice any changes in the town when Hanford would change contractors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not really, except when they brought in new contractors, then they brought in more people and different types of people—you know, different expertise and this type of thing. But it’s just changing—when it was just one company, I don’t really— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What about during the shift in the late ‘80s from production to cleanup and kind of the rise of the environmental consciousness, if you will. Can you talk about what you remember about the community at that time, and kind of how the people negotiated that change in Hanford’s role? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, I don’t remember that at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Like I say, a lot of things, when I had a bunch of little tiny kids, I had my own little world. [LAUGHTER] The ‘60s are a pretty big blur. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. What about later, in the ‘80s and the early ‘90s when cleanup started to become a high priority? And the actual production was being shut down. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I just remember, maybe this is coming to an end kind of a thing. But it didn’t affect me. I didn’t see anybody seem to be bothered. You just get—because you’ve been there for so many years, and it just kept going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So—my husband didn’t talk about how it affected him or anything, or my dad. My mother—but I remember one thing, she—the last library she worked on was the old Richland Library. They—I guess the new one’s over 30 years old? A lot older than I thought it was. But anyway, she says, they just had to build this new one. They just couldn’t—they could not use that building anymore. And then they build a new one, and somebody was in it for another 30 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The old building? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The old building. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Where is that building? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was between George Washington and Jadwin and Swift. You know, where the city hall is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was right south of the city hall. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And it was a domed—orange dome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. Isn’t that a vacant, or an empty space now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: They took it out, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Just like the old community house. They cut it in half. [LAUGHTER] But I don’t know. And yet, to look at the theater—the Richland Theater, that’s still there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: It is, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But the one we went to as kids was the Village Theater, which was just a couple blocks away on George Washington Way. On the other side of Lee. They had the westerns on Saturday morning. So we were there for the westerns. The other thing I remember about the movies that’s so different from now is that we didn’t get the movies for two to three years, until—you know, the big—evidently, they didn’t make a jillion copies. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we didn’t get them for two or three years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I can remember that. So a lot of the big ones, people had gone on vacation and already saw it. But there was enough of us that didn’t that there were still big, big, big lines. That’s one thing I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you think maybe that had something to do with government procurement, maybe? Or the movie theater being run by the government? Or do you think it was the availability—just the size of the city— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The availability of the film is what always entered my mind. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Huh. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the other thing is not a lot of people flew when I was a kid, because—and I might be way off—but it seemed to me that they were paying about as much then as I—to go to Arizona as I—going to go this Christmas. Very few people flew, and it was in the hundreds of dollars. And I’m paying $300 to go to Arizona at Christmas. [LAUGHTER] And that’s another thing that interests me. Of course, now, most of us fly nowadays. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Yeah, that’s kind of the default. Or we get prepared to drive long distances, which—I imagine would have been—I imagine getting to Kennewick and Pasco when you were a child would have been quite an undertaking, in terms of just the roads. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We didn’t go very often. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You didn’t go very often. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But the other thing that isn’t mainly about here, but—I don’t know if you’ve ridden much in Benton City, but there’s Acord Road, that is a two-lane road, and not much on the sides, and it goes ssshhh on a canyon. Well, that’s what our highways were when I was a kid. It took—the two places we went was either Salt Lake or the San Francisco area. It took us 18 hours to get to either one. Well, it takes us ten now. See, these freeways, they’re wide, they’re one-direction. You’re not loofing around— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Safer, too, I imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Only place you loof around is on Cabbage Hill, really, to an extent. That has been a big change. But I remember, we’d have the kids in the car at 4:00 AM and get to Grandpa’s at midnight. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. That’s a long day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That is a long day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: With kids in the car. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, but it was easier than stopping. But we didn’t always do that. In some ways, when you have four little kids, it’s easier to do that than to stop. That’s one big difference. But that’s just in general; that has nothing to do with this area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, that’s still a really, really important difference. You mentioned earlier that your parents had worked on Atomic Frontier Days floats. Do you remember which floats specifically that they worked on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, they were Toastmasters and Toastmistress. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I think Dad worked on one of the Lions’. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Was that something they just kind of did for fun to help out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, they were in those organizations, and— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And, boy, they put in the work and the designing. People were—well, when they first moved, when they were just building the place, it wasn’t a high-educated group of people. And then when they built and whatnot so they could come in—the scientists. And then I remember Dad saying when I was in high school, it had the highest percentage of PhDs in the world kind of a thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: When people talked about, nobody talked to them about going to college, I said, you’re kidding. I just—everybody I knew went to college from here. The schools were very good here. At least the ones I went to—very, very good. Then I went to BYU and got married the last day of the quarter and came back and started at CBC. I think that was the third or fourth year of CBC—but it already had a good reputation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Did you finish? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, I didn’t. I’ve been taking courses—until just a few years ago, I’ve been taking courses off and on. And then I was in the seniors programs that they had, and they quit that. So— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What kind of courses did you take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, we had two businesses when the kids got to teenagers, my one son—well, he was a scout, and for one of his merit badges—my husband’s boss was the scout master. He also, on the side, had bees. So we checked with the neighbors, and they were okay, and we had two or three hives in our backyard. My son couldn’t find a job for the summer, so he said, Dad, can we have bees? So I don’t know, we had big contracts and whatnot and we worked together with the other ones, and were very involved in the state bee organization. It was the most wonderful thing for our family. We just—we worked hard, and we worked together. But then the older ones were leaving, and the two younger ones got deathly allergic. So then when we didn’t have the bee business anymore, our son says—I knew a man that was selling his carpet business, so we bought the carpet business. But anyway, when we had the bee business, I took two years of accounting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I kind of went off on that, didn’t I? And I’ve taken about every--oil painting, whatever it is kind of thing. But when I first went, I was taking the basic courses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, the general education. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The general education. And then I just went off on the different things. So I kept the books for the businesses and answered the phone. We liked the beekeeping business much more than the carpet cleaning business. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And like I say, we worked together. One of the things is, one of my boys took them out—you know you move bees at night? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And he was out in the farm somewhere and the truck turned over. They said there were policemen all around keeping cars from going, but none of them were out helping. [LAUGHTER] It was a stinging proposition, but it was good for us. It really brought us close. The kids learned if you work hard, you could have anything you wanted. They got the skis, they went skiing. They’re still real hard workers. They found the benefit of that. My one son, when we were getting rid of the carpet business, he decided to—he was going to go to college, and we had some problems—well, some men that worked for us came in and had keys to our house and came in and stole our truck and a few other things and whatnot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we got a call from a policeman in Oregon, and there was this little box that looked—that was locked and whatnot, and they took that. It didn’t have anything that they wanted, but it had a lot of personal papers. So the police sent it to us. Anyway, when we were getting out of the carpet keeping business, my son, David, took it with him to school and took the debt and whatnot and built up a carpet-cleaning business in Las Vegas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Does he still do that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. He works for Costco now. And he’s in Selah. He was at the Kennewick store and they transferred him to Yakima. They have moved to a house that’s over 100 years old. And they’ve kept adding to it and adding to it. I don’t go upstairs because I need the bathroom often, and you have to know exactly which staircase you go up to get to the bathroom up there. [LAUGHTER] His wife’s family grew up there, and they said, oh, we’re so interested. We always walked past this house. We wondered who owned it now. And so it is a very interesting house. But—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, Sharon, is there anything else you would like to add or that I haven’t talked about before we— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that’s coming. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, I just want to thank you for sharing so much about your life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you’re welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And opening up to us about your experiences growing up in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you’re welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/56vU5WxUfWo">View interview on Youtube.</a> </div> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sharon Kent Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/26/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Description An account of the resource Sharon Kent moved to Richland, Washington in 1943 as a child. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities General Electric Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3456ac141676b19681e8973d4860bb6f.jpg 6b46e1fac54adedcf5009e407001de6b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F967a5b63866ab00e52b32cbfedd3fbbb.jpg cd59fa64a359257ac6a111d7bf19d14b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alphabet House Floor Plans Subject The topic of the resource Floor plans, construction, Prefabricated houses, Buildings, Houses, History Description An account of the resource Alphabet house floor plans that were available to build, in the Richland Village. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Engineer Works Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Floor plans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dianne Brownlee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alphabet House Q Subject The topic of the resource Floor plans, Construction, Prefabricated houses, Buildings, Houses, History Description An account of the resource Alphabet house floor plans that were available to build, in the Richland Village. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dianne Brownlee Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish please contact Washington State University Tri-Cities' Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447. Type The nature or genre of the resource Floor plans https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe055fd0ab530129db6fe7c9f3ab59b55.MP3 54c7855ab5c96e0861e4cb60c0b500a9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Warren H. Sevier Location The location of the interview Home of Sevier Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: Today is July 13th and we are with Warren Sevier in Richland, that is S-E-V-I-E-R, right? Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay and I guess where I’d like to start is maybe a little background about like what you were starting with what brought you to Hanford. Sevier: Okay, I worked for an instrument company back east and started looking around for a job and this was advertised in the Cleveland papers, so I submitted an application and here I am. Weisskopf: Was the job highly tuned to what you were doing or…? Sevier: I was working for an instrument company and the job was instrument technicians. Weisskopf: Okay. Why were they advertising in Cleveland do you think? Sevier: I don’t know. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: At that time, the previous fall, they’d had a lay off here. They laid off a lot of people and then with the new plants coming on like the reactors and REDOX and uranium plant they needed more people, so they went across country looking for people. Weisskopf: So what time of year do you think it was that you saw the ad? Sevier: It had to be during the summer. Weisskopf: Of 1950? Sevier: 1950, right. Weisskopf: Somewhere in ’50. Sevier: And I came here in October of 1950. Weisskopf: Were you married then or have kids or anything? Sevier: No, I was single then. Weisskopf: So it was pretty easy to pick up and move. Sevier: It was yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Was the pay better than what you were getting or what was the reason? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was a factory job where I was working. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: And I wanted to work in a field as a field engineer. At that time, they had a Cadet Engineering course and I was scheduled to take it. Every once in awhile somebody from the shop would be qualified enough to take it but management decision came down that no one else would be taking the course in the future without a degree and I didn’t have that. Weisskopf: Okay, right. Sevier: And so that’s when I started looking for another job. Weisskopf: And did they pay your way to come out for an interview or how did that work? Sevier: No, I submitted an application and I guess they gave me the job. There was some correspondence back and forth of course. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Any negotiation about salary or did they just tell you what it was going to pay? Sevier: No, they told me what it was. Weisskopf: Was it a step up? Sevier: Oh yeah, from factory work? Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Great. Sevier: What I was doing in the factory was assembling instruments and calibrating ‘em. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. What kind of instruments were they? Sevier: They were for powerhouse type, temperature, pressure… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …flow. Weisskopf: All of which they had out here right? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Somewhere or another, okay. So you picked up and moved out. Did you know where Pasco and Richland were? Were you familiar with the territory? Sevier: I had been on the West Coast when I was sailing in the merchant marine but I had never been. I worked for an Alaska steam ship one time but never in Seattle and I didn’t realize that there was deserts and dunes like everybody else. Weisskopf: Did you drive out here? Sevier: Yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. So it must have been a little bit of a surprise when you found that you had arrived when you still didn’t look like you were in Washington. Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Where did you stay when you got here? Sevier: They had dormitories. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: In Richland and I stayed in the men’s dorm. Weisskopf: About how long did that last? Sevier: Let’s see…. Weisskopf: You got here in October. Sevier: Yeah, I think it lasted till, well I stayed till ’52 till I got married. Weisskopf: Okay, so you stayed in the dorms for two years? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And that was a normal thing to do? It wasn’t just for transient temporaries? Sevier: Yeah there was 13, I think 13, and men’s dorms and I don’t know how many women’s dorms. Weisskopf: Okay. And did you start work immediately upon getting here? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. So, where was your first assignment? Sevier: Well, in 700 Area Powerhouse. It still had some clearance, I think, to go through but anyway they had equipment from the company that I worked for and… Weisskopf: So you…yeah. Sevier: …they wanted somebody to calibrate it. Weisskopf: I wonder if that’s why they were advertising in Cleveland. Sevier: No, I don’t think so… Weisskopf: No? Okay. Sevier: …I think their ad probably appeared all around the country, I think. Weisskopf: Right, right. Refresh my memory in the 700 Area Powerhouse, where was that? Sevier: It was back of the 703 building, part of it is still there. It was in that open space where the bus terminal is now. Weisskopf: Okay. Where did that power go to, do you think? Steam or? Sevier: It was steam and it took care of the office buildings, also I lived in those little apartments on George Washington Way and they were steam heated at the time. Weisskopf: Okay. So that was a pretty standard non-nuclear job then? Sevier: Right, that was just until the clearance came though. Weisskopf: And for that job required no clearance…. Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …and so how long were you there, do you think? A matter of weeks or months? Sevier: Oh, just a few weeks. Weisskopf: Okay. Any problems getting clearance? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Yeah. So where did you go after that? Sevier: Went to the 200 Areas. Weisskopf: Okay, in power or? Sevier: In instruments. See they had a separate instrument division. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They were set up with different kinds of divisions, there was separation division and so forth. Reactor had one division and separation, 200 Area separation and metal prep was 300. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm, all had their own separate instrument people? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Mm-hmm, but as a group we, most of us, belonged to the Instrument Society. Weisskopf: Right. Did you ever have meetings on campus amongst all of you or did you go to classes that would have mixed people from all areas? Sevier: Yeah I went to classes, right. They had classes for the people that came in here were either electronic or pneumatic technicians. I was classified as pneumatic so we had a school in White Bluff’s, in a warehouse in White Bluff’s, and we had both pneumatic and electronic people in there and they were from all the areas. So I think the school lasted probably about…oh six months if I remember correctly. Weisskopf: Cause an awful lot of your instruments would have overlapped with everybody elses. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And I presume that…were there standards that were used throughout the site? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Was there competition among you guys and the 100 Area instrument people or…. Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …didn’t really know what they were doing? Sevier: No, no problem there. Weisskopf: Yeah. But you did share information? Sevier: Oh yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. So when you were in instruments in the 200 Areas were you more narrow than the entire both 200 Areas or for some aspect of them? Sevier: Oh yeah both. I worked in T plant… Weisskopf: Were you assigned to T plant, or that was just one of the buildings you took care of? Sevier: No, I was assigned to T Plant and also the tank farms one period. Then I was in a group that had the powerhouse and the remote weather instruments. Weisskopf: Right, did you ever have to climb the weather tower? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Was there an elevator or walk up? Sevier: They put an elevator in there later I think. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Yeah I did. There was no elevator at first. Weisskopf: You had to climb up? Sevier: Yeah, one time we changed all the thermocouples or ___ (sounds like thermones) I’m sorry…on the various stages where they measured temperature and uh…. Weisskopf: You had to work on the outside of the tower or how secure was it? Sevier: Oh you could reach from the tower. Weisskopf: Okay. Huh. So Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: And over, so what was your span of time dealing in the 200 Areas do you think? For the various jobs you had there. Sevier: Oh, for my whole career, just about. Weisskopf: Was it? Okay. Sevier: I think so. Weisskopf: Which went until when? Sevier: ’88. Weisskopf: Okay. 38 years. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I even got a 35-year watch. Weisskopf: A watch? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Rockwell. It is kind of funny, you know, you work for all these various contractors at the same job essentially, essentially like I was a Project Engineer for General Electric Arco. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Rockwell, and then of course I retired from Westinghouse. Weisskopf: Yeah. Did retirement work out okay after all those transitions? Sevier: Oh yeah, fine. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Cause I know that was always something that it depended on who you were working for. Sevier: I worked a little longer. I was going to retire when I was 65 and I worked into the next year because I was upgrading the railroad as a Project Engineer. That was one of the projects they had and they wanted to finish that before I retired, so I did. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I worked maybe in to January or February or something like that. Weisskopf: I guess the part I am interested in the most right now is T Plant specific work…. Sevier: Okay. Weisskopf: …and I guess what kind of clearance did you need for that versus other places? Sevier: I think, you didn’t, you just needed just secret clearance, I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Was it? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: I had TS clearance because I worked sometimes once and awhile in the 2, 3, 4, 5. Weisskopf: TS, was that higher… Sevier: Top secret. Weisskopf: What was Q level? Sevier: Q was normal I think. Weisskopf: That was just the basic. Sevier: Yeah, Q. Weisskopf: Okay, okay but you had a higher one. Sevier: Well later I did for working in the metal prep building. Weisskopf: Right, right. So when do you think you went to T Plant? Was that early on? Sevier: Yeah I think so. That would be…. Weisskopf: In ’51 or? Sevier: It had to be in ’51. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Was that your first assignment in the separations area, actually working on the separations process? Sevier: Working in one of the process buildings? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Yeah, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Sevier: Because before that we had the powerhouse and the tank farms, well the tank farms I worked in and powerhouse, tank farms, and the weather instruments. Yeah. Weisskopf: Followed that, or… Sevier: Well that was before I went into T Plant I think. Weisskopf: that quickly? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: You went into T Plant within the year of getting here… Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: …but you worked in all those other places too? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: One group had it all, had the three assignments. One group took care of the powerhouses, the tank farms, and the remote instrument groups, operative. Weisskopf: And so you weren’t stuck in one building all day obviously…. Sevier: No, no. Weisskopf: …the assignments came up and they would move you around. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: So what were you doing at T Plant when you first got there? Sevier: I worked as an instrument technician. Weisskopf: Which meant you could go anywhere in the building to work on instruments? Sevier: Oh yeah, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: How many of you were there? Sevier: Gee I don’t know, maybe counting the shift people, probably 10 in a group. Weisskopf: 10 instrument people? Sevier: Instrument people yeah. Weisskopf: On any one shift or through the entire, all shifts. Sevier: For the entire thing. Weisskopf: So there might be two or three. Sevier: One man on a shift. See we were working six days a week. So short change was a matter of a few hours. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: But I didn’t work shift there I worked days but I worked shift later at REDOX. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: When they started up REDOX. Weisskopf: Everything they did at T Plant was remote controlled, so I presume that instruments were as critical as instruments can ever get. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Were you sort of on emergency call and when things came up you had to get to ‘em right away. Sevier: Yeah, of course as I say they had shift coverage so they had to have a man there all the time. Weisskopf: But, was it frequently, would the process stop until you guys fixed it? Sevier: No, because it was batch. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They get in to the process, I mean start and stop. I’m not to sure… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: But it was a batch process. Weisskopf: People weren’t yelling at you continually about holding up the process. Sevier: Oh no. Weisskopf: Did you know much about the process while you were working there? Sevier: Not too much because it was a no no to read run books and things like that. Weisskopf: The logs. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: You get caught reading those and you get a little lecture but nobody read ‘em because really…if you were a chemist or something it might be fine but… Weisskopf: Right, right otherwise it would be boring reading. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Did you ever have to dress up and go in the canyon to do instruments? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: How often was that? Weekly or every now and then? Sevier: No it wasn’t very often. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: We had one project I remember, when they sent the slugs over from the 100 Areas they were in water and it was always a problem sending the cask cars back empty because they wouldn’t have the heat anymore and they would freeze up. Weisskopf: Oh in the winter time? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Really? Sevier: So what they were trying to do was establish a point where they did not need the water to cool the slugs. Weisskopf: Oh. Sevier: So what they did is there was a swimming pool, what they call a swimming pool, a big pool in T Plant and they would bring a basket of slugs in and put it down in there and then we would put thermocouples in amongst the slugs and then we get out of there and they would pull it out and put it up on deck and watch the temperature. If it got to hot they would put it back in. They wanted to see how long it would take for the green slugs to cool down enough so that they wouldn’t need the water coming over. Weisskopf: They wanted to find out if they needed it coming over from the reactors. Sevier: From the reactor with the slugs. See the slugs… Weisskopf: Okay… Sevier: …provided heat. Weisskopf: They weren’t set up at the reactor to do these kinds of measurements. Sevier: Apparently not. Weisskopf: It was easier to do it at your place. Sevier: It was easier to do with the swimming pool there… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Or the pool rather. Weisskopf: Okay, so they’d measure the temperature in the water and out of the water and… Sevier: Mostly out of the water, pull it out and let it heat up and then established a point where it safe to ship it without water so they wouldn’t freeze up in the winter. I mean that’s just one… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …one little thing. Weisskopf: Why didn’t they just empty the water out after taking the fuel out of the cask car? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: I was thinking about that. Weisskopf: Yeah. So what they wanted to do was ship it over without water in the cask car. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And that was one of the times you had to suit up… Sevier: Yep. Weisskopf: …then be out there. Where the heck were you when they were lifting fresh fuel out of the swimming pool? Sevier: Oh no you don’t get it. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: You get out of it. You don’t stay in the canyon. Weisskopf: Yeah. And were they, so you put the thermocouple down in the water while it was safe to do so? Sevier: In the basket, Yeah. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Slugs were in a basket and you put the thermocouple down in there with tongs. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And then… Weisskopf: You’d leave at that point. Sevier: …leave right. Weisskopf: And the crane operator… Sevier: Of course the wire is hooked up and so forth. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: The crane operator would then pull it out and put it up on deck and then they would watch the temperature if it got too hot to go back in the pool. Weisskopf: Okay. So you were looking down in the cell then. You were working down in, or you know looking over the edge. Sevier: _____ (unclear) the pool. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Was it big? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was a big pool Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. How many buckets were down there when you were doing this? Sevier: Oh, this was just the one bucket. Weisskopf: Just for the test? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: I think it would have been too hot with others. Weisskopf: And they tended to have redundancy in instruments so if something did go out they could continue the process? Sevier: I think so in a way. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: But with the batch process of course you could always stop. Weisskopf: At any given point. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Where did you tend to, did you spend, where did you spend most of your time dealing with instruments, what part of the building? Sevier: In the gallery, the operating gallery… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: …that’s where your readout instruments are. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And it would be a matter of routine calibration. Sevier: Preventative… Weisskopf: According to a schedule? Sevier: …yeah maintenance… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Preventative maintenance. Weisskopf: Did that include like the big scales they had. Sevier: Yeah we had a scale man. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: I worked with him sometimes, everybody, he took care of the scales there and also the railroad scales. Riverland, which is where the rails used to come in. They had scales there. I remember going over there one day with him. Then, let’s see…. Weisskopf: So, there was always, everyday if there were no problems you still had work to do everyday… Sevier: Yeah, routine, oh yeah. Weisskopf: …calibrating routine work. How often were there problems where you had to stop what you were doing and go fix something? Was it frequent or infrequent? Sevier: I would say infrequent. Weisskopf: Just every now and then? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Did you ever go up in the crane operator’s cabin? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah? While it was running or? Sevier: The periscopes belonged to the instrument groups. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Sevier: But we had, there was a specialist in the 300 Area that took care of the periscopes but we might go with him you know and help out. Weisskopf: While they were working? Or just during off hours, would you be up there? Sevier: Oh off hours, Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Sevier: Cause you couldn’t have any cells open or anything. Even though you were behind a concrete wall. Weisskopf: Right. Cause, oh you were working on the outside on the periscopes themselves. Sevier: Periscopes, right. Weisskopf: Right, okay. Was there TV installed at that point? Sevier: No, that was too early. They put TV on at PUREX, the first ones, and that didn’t work too well at first, the first TV’s. But the PUREX were the first application. Weisskopf: Okay. You don’t remember any TV screens inside the crane at the T Plant. Sevier: No, not at T, not then no. Weisskopf: So suiting up was sort of a normal thing to do? Not frequent maybe. Sevier: No, it wasn’t frequent, no. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Usually it was pretty well organized. Weisskopf: But weren’t the instruments, the other ends of the instruments were all in the cells right? Sevier: The sensing elements? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: And what would you do if something went out in one of the dissolvers? Or you know… Sevier: Oh they probably, they were on jumpers so the crane operator would take them out. Weisskopf: You would take the whole thing out? Sevier: And conceivably it would be hot so they would bury it and you’d have a replacement one in which… Weisskopf: And were you the one who would install you know a thermocouple or something in a jumper? Sevier: In a jumper, yeah, you wouldn’t build a jumper but you would put the thermocouple in. Weisskopf: Where would you go to do that? Sevier: Up at the maintenance shop where they…. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: ...built the jumpers. Weisskopf: So they would simply have an order for that and you’d go in and they’d tell you put it in there. Sevier: No, sometimes they had spares depending on the instrument. Weisskopf: Was it all pretty well set up and easy to do or was there still lots of jury-rigging or making fit or something like that? Sevier: No, I thought it was pretty well thought out, planned before. Weisskopf: You guys weren’t changing things, improving, upgrading all time, where you had to constantly fine tune it? Sevier: No I don’t think so, not in that sense. Weisskopf: And the instruments in the gallery was like hundreds of yards of instruments… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weiskopf: Did you understand, I guess most of them were repeated instruments though right? There was a finite number of types of instruments. Sevier: Yeah, they could have weight factors, BG, and temperatures… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …pressures. Weisskopf: Microphones. Sevier: They had microphones yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: I thought that was a pretty real black and white way of finding out if something was working. Sevier: Yeah, you could hear it. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah, real basic. So if you had training or experience on any one of those you could go down the aisle and find them all up…. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: …and down the operating gallery. Sevier: And then the radiation instrumentation. They were at usually Beckman’s. Weiskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: They’re pretty standard. The weight factor and that was usually a ring balance and temperature was usually oh, Honeywell or somebody like that, Brown. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. All standard equipment kind. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Did radiation ever interfere with some of the instruments? I know when they first were building Hanford that was an issue with any materials, is how would, heavy radiation effect the materials. Did it have any effect on instruments, where you guys had to take that into account? Sevier: No, I don’t think so. It did on, I remember, on periscopes in the tank farm. Weisskopf: For looking into tanks? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: So it effected the glass or? Sevier: No the light, we’d have to change out the light bulb, and that was _____ (unclear) Weisskopf: Oh yeah. Do you know a guy named Bill Painter? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: He told me a long story once about being involved in a crew where they had to pull the light thing out. Sevier: Yep, everybody gets a few seconds. Weisskopf: And they all got dosed and they…yeah, yeah. Sevier: Quick turn on the light thing and then get out of there. Weisskopf: So were you involved in that from an instrumentation perspective? Sevier: Yeah, that’s when I was in the tank farm group, he was probably in the same group at the same time. Weisskopf: Okay, and that was just one sort of, not odd, but you know something that came up that you had to deal with. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: And that was just the light bulbs? Sevier: Mm-hmm in that case, yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Sometimes when they were sluicing and they’d hit the periscope with the sluice uh, you know… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: …and then the bulb would just burn out I guess. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Wow. So, but back at T plant the radiation, you never found yourself having to add a shield or something…. Sevier: No, uh-uh. Weisskopf: …in order to deal with that, there were all already had been proven…I guess…in the previous few years. Did you work, who took care of the instruments in the lab? Sevier: We did. Weisskopf: Oh you did? Sevier: Same groups. We had one man assigned to the lab at T plant and then when he needed help, you know, he would get others from the group. But he worked all the time, especially in the counting room. You know where they were counting samples all the time… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …that took a lot of time as far as one man, keeping one man busy, so… Weisskopf: Were there any unique instruments in the lab that you wouldn’t have found elsewhere in the building? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Was there like chemistry instruments, like gastromatographs or? Sevier: No, mostly, for the most part they were counting samples, you know. Let’s see, I was trying to think of what, no I can’t think of any… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: …that would be special. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. What was the deal with the padlocks on the panels? Sevier: You know the jet, so you couldn’t jet from one tank to another without, yeah they had padlocks on the jet controls. They were a wheel-type of thing that… Weisskopf: Simply before you could move from to one tank to another. Sevier: Yeah we didn’t do that, of course the operators did that. Weisskopf: Right. And was that for every tank, was there like dozens of locks all the way down? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Every panel board had three or four. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Depending on, you know that’s how they moved the material was they jetted it from one to another. Weisskopf: Jet being a substitute for a pump right? Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: And that is what you would see in the log book I guess? Is they’d get to a certain point and then they would check something and then say it’s okay to… Sevier: I suppose, again I say we didn’t have, I didn’t have, I wasn’t privy to it… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …looking at the log book so… Weisskopf: But it seems like if the only way they knew that things were working right and it was okay to jet it to the next tank was that the instruments were working right. Sevier: That’s right. Weisskopf: Didn’t that kind of put a lot of pressure on the instrument people or was it just so well running that it wasn’t an issue. Sevier: No, I think because of their experience they would know if something was a little off standard you know. For instance, if you started to jet from one to another and the weight factor didn’t increase in the tank you were jetting into…. Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: ...or say it didn’t decrease in one, they would know right away. Weisskopf: Cause as soon as they had done a few runs they would have a… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: …routine that they would know what it should be. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay. What about in the electrical or the pipe gallery, did you ever go down there for instruments too? Sevier: Oh yeah, Mm-hmm. There were thermocouples there. Weisskopf: Thermocouples down where? Sevier: The wires came through the galleries. Weisskopf: Oh-oh-oh, right. Sevier: For the cell temperatures and stuff. Weisskopf: So you might have to tap into those. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Later on, I was Electrical Inspector and Instrument Inspector for 200 Areas for about 10 years so…of course that’s where I would get a little fuzzy as to what I did when, far as you know… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: ...cause I would have projects where we’d put in electric things but that was at a later period. Weisskopf: How about adding new instruments? Was there much of that going on? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: I said earlier improvements, but did they just find new ways to measure things or new instruments to use? Sevier: Well no, because the new plants were coming up. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Okay. Here comes REDOX, see, which has automatic control. Weisskopf: So they never had to worry about making huge improvements at T plant because it did what it was supposed to do? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. So you weren’t working with people to design new instruments to make it work better. Sevier: Not then, later on. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Of course in the, most of the instrument projects later on I had. Where they’d upgraded. But uh…hey did you want, excuse me did you want some coffee? Weisskopf: I don’t think I want any coffee thank you, once sec, I’m going to turn the tape over. SIDE TWO Weisskopf: Okay it’s working again. How about just generalized things like what was the most interesting part of the job when you’re dealing with instruments? Sevier: Well I don’t know, probably getting your calibration to come out, I don’t know. Weisskopf: That was the most satisfying part of the job? Sevier: I think so, right. Weisskopf: Cause you were calibrating all the time? Sevier: Um, part, yeah part of the time you were doing that right. I don’t think all of the time. Weisskopf: And if it didn’t calibrate, that’s where your skill came in? Sevier: Start over and fix it. Weisskopf: Yeah, was that the most difficult part of the job too? Sevier: Um let’s see, the most difficult part of the job was working shift I guess. Weisskopf: Oh, you mean like graveyard? Sevier: Well, on a six day week I think you had, what 12 hours off between one of the shifts. When they had what they call a short change and a long change. Everybody in the plant was working these hours six days a week. Weisskopf: So what was the routine, what was the schedule? Give or take. Sevier: Well, let’s see, as I say between…I’ve forgotten now which one…but between one of the changes maybe when you went from days to the short change or long change, anyway you had only eight hours I think it is on one. Maybe it was more than that. Weisskopf: And you would move up a shift? Sevier: No, no. You rotated. Yeah right, you did rotate. You change shifts which was difficult cause of sleeping problems. Weisskopf: Yep. I think since then they’ve learned to keep people on a shift longer right? Sevier: Right. You can imagine going to sleep say at 8 o’clock in the morning one time, the next time maybe 4 o’clock and 5 o’clock or worse, normally in the evening and this gets to be a little confusing after awhile. Weisskopf: Yeah, right right. How many tools did you carry around with you? Would you do your calibration at the site of the instrument? Sevier: Yes. Weisskopf: You wouldn’t take it out? Okay. Sevier: Well you might, in some cases you might take it back to the shop and work on it. Weisskopf: Well how do you calibrate like a pH meter if its sensor is out in the canyon somewhere? Sevier: Well you do some substitute voltage, or whatever it was. Weisskopf: With a separate wire going to the instrument? Sevier: Mm-hmm. In the case of weight factors and things like that you’d have manometers and in the case of temperature you’d have resistance boxes or voltage, things to measure voltage for the thermocouples. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Or substitute. You might want to substitute the voltages to calibrate. Weisskopf: And on any given day would you go down the line and do only one type of instrument? What was the schedule for the calibrating? Sevier: I’m not sure on routine. You had a routine, preventative maintenance. Weisskopf: But was it based on type of instrument where you’d go down and do all the thermometers this week… Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …or by panel board? Sevier: By panel boards probably. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Course it had to correlate with the operation of the process. Weisskopf: Oh, so it wouldn’t interfere. Sevier: You couldn’t very well take an instrument out of service to calibrate it when you’re operating… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: …so it had to be coordinated. Weisskopf: And you then had a finite amount of time to get it done. Sevier: Yeah, Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: But it sounded like time pressure wasn’t a big part of the job. Sevier: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: Yeah, you weren’t under the gun… Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …to keep the instruments going. Sevier: No, you didn’t have time study per se, which I never did like with, when I worked in the factory that’s what you had was time study. You’d have, you know, so much time to do a certain operation. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Of course, you get energetic and work hard and get a little ahead then you could coast a little. Weisskopf: Right. How about at the tank farm, when you shifted to that aspect did the job change drastically or just the environment in which you worked? Sevier: Well, when I was in the tank farm we had three things we could powerhouse, tank farms, and weather instruments. So we might depending on the need, we might work on any one of those three phases. Weisskopf: And where were you based? What was your home office? Sevier: Oh we had an office in a, like oh in the change, end of the change…trying to remember…I don’t know, corner of the machine shop we had an office in the 200 Areas, 200 West Area. Weisskopf: And were you doing tank farms for both areas? Sevier: Let’s see, did we do both? I don’t think so. I think we just did the west areas. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Later on we did both though, seems to me. Weisskopf: And were the tanks filling up at that point? How were they dealing with the amount of room they had left? Was that part of your job? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Was that part of somebody’s job as far as… Sevier: That would be process operation. Weisskopf: Yeah, so how they were using or anything else didn’t really effect what you did. Sevier: No, not, uh-uh. Weisskopf: Was there looking for leaks? Was that part of the instrumentation? Sevier: As far as… Weisskopf: What you guys were maintaining. Sevier: …tanks and that? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Yeah, well we had projects where we drilled wells around the tank farm. Weisskopf: Uh-uh. Sevier: Monitoring wells. Weisskopf: And put instruments down them? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Or would they take samples out? Sevier: Well, if you went to the water table they would take samples out but I think the monitoring wells were later on. Weisskopf: And did they have array of instruments down inside the tanks then? Sevier: Let’s see what was in the tanks? I guess there were dip tubes for level and BG and I’d imagine temperature… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …and let’s see, how did they measure radiation? Probably at a chamber. Weisskopf: Inside? Sevier: Not in a tank itself but maybe in the well down alongside the tank. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. And how often would you have to suit up and be on top of the thanks? Sevier: Not too often. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: They had a control house where the read out instrumentation was and a lot of your work was in the control house or instrument house. Weisskopf: Did you ever have tasks where there was a real short amount of time they allowed you to work on it. Sevier: Well changing light bulbs was the shortest. Weisskopf: And that was because the lights and the camera had been put down inside the tank and were contaminated, not wet with it probably they weren’t in the liquid they were just above it. Sevier: They were above it, but they might be, sometimes they got hit by sluicing cause at that time they were sluicing the tanks for uranium recovery so… Weisskopf: So the sluicing they were doing wasn’t anything unknown, it was just the normal routine for getting the liquids out. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Changing a light bulb, not real romantic if you ask me, not too exotic. So what was your job while they were doing that? How were you involved with changing light bulbs or how were you involved with the camera and everything? Sevier: Well not… Weisskopf: You went there anyway, did they call you in for it? Sevier: Yeah, it took a number of people to do this. You know, someone to start it and then the next one would maybe do it, take three or four people to change the bulb. Weisskopf: And was it just a normal bulb or a spot, or? Sevier: It was probably a spot bulb. Weisskopf: But it screwed in light a regular light bulb? Sevier: Right, Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And one person couldn’t take 15-20 seconds to unscrew it? Sevier: No, it would take too long. Weisskopf: Wow. Sevier: So it was really short. Weisskopf: And they called you in simply to help change the light bulbs. Sevier: Well I was part of that group. Weisskopf: Okay. And did you use up that week’s allotment of dose? Sevier: Probably. Weisskopf: Cause Bill was mentioning something about sitting around not being able to do anything for awhile after some job like that. Sevier: Well we always could work out on a cold side though. Weisskopf: Well evidently he didn’t that time. Sevier: Oh. Weisskopf: That was one aspect, one time in his job where they had to sit around for a day waiting for something else to come along but changing light bulbs does not sound real exciting. Sevier: He came along a little bit later then, I think, if I remember right. So maybe they changed their method of operating or something. Weisskopf: Well what he was talking about was exactly the same thing you were… Sevier: Or maybe they gave him more exposure then they gave… Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Sevier: …in that case they would probably want to keep him from… Weisskopf: Do you remember what your retirement dosage was? Your lifetime dosage? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Not too high. Sevier: I don’t think it was too high. Weisskopf: Being exposed was not a normal part of your job. Sevier: No, because later, see later on I did a lot of…oh what would you call it…office type work. Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: Cause I wrote instruction manuals and I remember I taught a class to the operators, instrument class at PUREX and a fella named Bill _____ (sounds like Schillnik) and I set up a preventative maintenance file for PUREX and then I worked as Project Engineering, so you see…and then being, I was an electrical and instrument inspector, you know, as I say for 10 years and most of that was not hot stuff that was new. You know, new buildings, new so... Weisskopf: Was the instrumentation at REDOX much more exciting than it was at T plant? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was, had automatic control there instead of batch. Weisskopf: So the continuous process was not just monitored by instruments but controlled by it. Sevier: Controlled by it, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Where at T plant it was all padlocks basically. Sevier: Mm-hmm, yeah batch. Weisskopf: And switch on a centrifuge, switch it off, entirely manually controlled. Sevier: That centrifuge reminds me you know, my daughter was about yeh high, they had an open house and they had set a cell up at U plant with a centrifuge and we went in there. You know we could go in and look down in there and the next day no more kids. So that was, I think we must have went in on a Saturday and then Sunday morning there was no more children, because it was kinda unusual. She had been in plants where, seen inside of a canyon building where a lot of people couldn’t go. Weisskopf: Yeah, you can’t now. Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, they don’t like hardly anybody in there. That’s funny. What about, the job wasn’t all that hazardous because you weren’t normally going into the canyon or places like that. Sevier: Not for me because a lot of portion of my career out there was kind of office work type thing, clean…clean work, new work. Weisskopf: Were you at T plant when they stopped using it? Sevier: No. Weiskopf: You had left already. Sevier: I went down to REDOX before the building was finished because we were in a Quonset hut between REDOX and U plant or a temporary building anyway and working on the instrument instruction manuals till we went into the building. Weisskopf: Manuals for people to use them or to use ‘em. Sevier: Use them to maintain the instrumentation. Weisskopf: Okay. To maintain them, not for the operators? Sevier: No… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …in that case it was for maintenance. Weisskopf: Yeah, Okay. Sevier: Later on I worked on operating manuals for the operators but that was for PUREX. Weisskopf: And were you doing it from your instrumentation background or just because you understood the process? How did you get involved in writing operator’s manuals? Sevier: Not operator’s manuals, these were instrument manuals to educate the operators. Weisskopf: Oh-oh-oh right. Sevier: Say that you were a new operator and you’d say “well what’s weight factor?” See…. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Well you go right up in the manual with diagrams showing what weight factor is, what it does and so forth or what’s, you know, anything? What’s BG? What’s, anyhow, that’s what the manual is. Weisskopf: And it might be a paragraph or it might be five pages, but it was just to explain the instrument and how it worked. Sevier: You know, like a loose leaf book about that thick. But anyway, just educate the operators to how the instrumentation did work. Weisskopf: Because again instrumentation was the whole thing. It’s like flying an airplane blind. I mean they had to rely on instruments for virtually everything. Sevier: Yeah, because there was no other way. Yeah, right. Weisskopf: Because the only visible part of it was when the crane operator lifted out a bucket, put it in the dissolver… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: … after that everything else was via instruments. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And in the operating gallery with all those gage ports down there, how many people would be standing operating them? How many operators would be in there? Sevier: I don’t know, maybe one or two a panel, I don’t know. Weisskopf: Oh, at a panel? Sevier: Or a section. Weisskopf: So there would be quite a few people all the way down at least? Sevier: Yeah, there may be, depending on the process of course. We’re talking about T plant? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Okay. We might have one or two panels, sections, then again depending on where they were in the process too I guess. Weisskopf: Okay. Did you ever do any instrumentation for the stack gases going out? Any of the monitoring? Sevier: Yeah. I was, was it 291 building? Weisskopf: Right, I think so. Sevier: Yeah. Yeah we had instruments in that building, stack. Weisskopf: And that was, was that a room where you had to suit up and spend a little time? Sevier: No, oh yes you did, to get in there? I think you did, yeah. Right. Going way back. Weisskopf: And they had filters in at that point right? By the time you got there… Sevier: Yeah, prior to my coming here was when they had a problem with the…and then they put in sand filters. But I guess they started, I’m not sure but I think they operated before without sand filters. Weisskopf: Right. I think when they started it up it had no filters at all. Sevier: Right. And then just before I got here they put in the sand filters. Weisskopf: And then later on they went to the silver, I forget what it was called. Sevier: Silver nitrate? Weisskopf: Yeah, was a step up. Sevier: Yeah, that was in the building wasn’t it? Yeah. Weisskopf: Did they have instruments in the filter? Sevier: In the filter? Weisskopf: Yeah, down in the sand? Sevier: I don’t think so. I think what they do is measure differential across the various parts. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Yeah. Get the drop across the filters. Weisskopf: Coming in and going out? Sevier: Um-hum. Weisskopf: Okay. I haven’t read yet but what did they do after a period time of using that sand? Would they start a new one or? Sevier: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They were big. I don’t think they did anything about it. Weisskopf: And a lot of the stuff that went through it was fairly short-lived right? The iodine. Sevier: Iodine…yeah… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …short half-life. Weisskopf: Did you do instrumentation…what am I thinking of? The rough instrumentation that would just be checking motors and heat on bearings and things like that? Was that part of the instrumentation? Sevier: Sometimes. We…usually…most that went to the electricians. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: But we might measure bearings and fan bearings and stuff like that. We had thermocouples on the fans…I remember on the bearings. Weisskopf: Oh, to see if they were getting hot or not. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Maybe I had, I don’t know if they had an inner lock to shut ‘em down, I don’t remember now, on the old ones. Weisskopf: Did you ever get called up in the middle of the night to come out? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Sevier: And that, again, was because they had shift coverage. I worked shift, but that was during the startup of REDOX. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I didn’t like it. Weisskopf: What did you mean working shift, versus what? What do you call it otherwise? Sevier: Working days. Weisskopf: Oh, shift meaning off or normal hours. Sevier: Yeah right. And again, because it was six to eight weeks…and then let’s see how did…I forget exactly how they work but anyway you work more than a week before you had time off. They had what they call long change and people liked that. I think you had about five days off and people take off on trips. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And like everybody here they came from some other place at that time. We’re not born here. Weisskopf: Nobody was born here, yeah. Sevier: So they often liked it so they could go home or whatever they were going to do. Weisskopf: Yeah. What was the most troublesome instrument to work on do you think? The one that was either the hardest to work on or needed your attention the most. Sevier: I don’t know. Weisskopf: Yeah? Nothing jumps out? Sevier: Might be Ledoux Bells and powerhouse, steam flow meters and that, cause they had mercury in ‘em. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And you had piping on them where you had to hook your instruments to them. Weisskopf: The mercury is in the pump or in the meter? Sevier: Mercury was a seal in the meter between the two pressures and the Ladoux Bell had a pravulet inside of it which gave you a linear flow instead of a square root output. Weisskopf: Hmm. Sevier: Because you know flow is related to square root, so in a way it extracts square root for you… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …gives you linear. Weisskopf: Interesting. Sevier: But they were sitting in…because of the big difference in pressure they were in mercury for a seal. Weisskopf: Why would, hmmm. Sevier: The ring balances were…it was actually a ring that had mercury in it, but it moved, rotated on pivots. Weisskopf: Huh. And you said you liked to dabble with trinkets, were you a clock maker or a radio builder at home? Sevier: No. Well I built radios yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah? Yeah, like from scratch? Or from Heathkit or? Sevier: Yeah, Heath kit and junk like that. Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Are they still around by the way? Sevier: I don’t know. The last thing I bought from them was an electric filter for the furnace…. Weisskopf: Hmmm… Sevier: …but that was quite awhile ago. Weisskopf: One thing I bought from them was in 1974 probably, was a windshield wiper variable speed edition. Sevier: Yeah? Weisskopf: I was way ahead of my time. That was the only thing I ever built from them. I think one problem today is they probably cost more, so much more than just buying it off the shelf. Sevier: Yeah, because of foreign inputs these things are real cheap. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. I can just see…. Sevier: I have that little digital camera there real cheap… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm, yeah…yeah. Sevier: …and all kinds of things like that. Weisskopf: Let me turn this off for a minute. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51 minutes, 4 seconds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Warren Sevier Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Warren Sevier conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F34fe7977cc487f38553e63f5f46d04d9.MP3 943160e343640675695db9aa989a3cbe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Russ Night Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: If there’s someplace you’d like to start. Otherwise, do you want to go all the way back to what you were doing in World War II and sort of segue into how you ended up at Hanford? Knight: I could do that real quickly. You bet. Weisskopf: Basically, last time we talked you told me what you were doing, the top secret kind of work, you had a clearance during the war. Knight: That’s right. Weisskopf: Well, how about that? Knight: Okay. Let me say this. I originated out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and joined the Army Air Corps, because they were taking fellows in with a little bit of education. I say a little bit. High school, minimum. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And from there, why, I went through the training, and then was assigned to the Eighth Air Force. And very shortly thereafter there was a big push to get personnel into what was called the troop carrier command then. And I went into the first troop carrier command, and during my stay there, training pilots, and we were then well, after I had been in training for about 14 months training pilots, decided that I’d like to get a part of the war effort, too. So I volunteered to go into the war. And at that stage I was assigned to a troop carrier unit that was to go overseas, and again was requested to submit to special training. At that time I was trained as a pathfinder. Part of that training took place at MIT, the electronics training, and the field training then took place at Pope Field in North Carolina, Fayetteville. And from there, why, I went over to the European theater of operations. Weisskopf: And what year was that? Knight: That was in 1943. Late ‘43. And from there I participated in the war, and of course the top secret clearance type thing took place at my training at MIT and also in the field training at Fayetteville, North Carolina. So then I came home in December 1945. And at that time I came by the Richland area, because I had met some real good people and had some friends here. And everybody, during my visit, said “Oh, you better sign up and go to work here at Hanford, because this is the future of mankind.” Weisskopf: You had actually felt that this was something new happening? Knight: That’s right. And so I said, “Oh, I don’t think that they would want me, but I’ll go down and submit an application.” Because I came from the East Coast originally, as I stated, and I had been offered a job by one of the officers in the Army to work for Standard Oil of New Jersey. And I thought, well, that was close to home and be a good opportunity, so that had been my original plan. But after submitting my application at Hanford, why, with my background and with the military clearance and just out of the service within weeks, why, they gave me my exam, gave me my clearance the same day, and told me to report to 100 West area the following morning. Weisskopf: They were happy to have you. Knight: It was really strange, because the people that knew me said “That’s impossible, Russ, they can’t do that. They’ll stop you before you get out there. But anyhow we’re happy that you did sign up.” So the net result was everything went the way that I was told that it would when I signed in. Weisskopf: This is probably early 1946 at this point? Knight: That was in January ‘46. January 14th, to be exact. Weisskopf: Well, okay, great. That was the first day you showed up for work? Knight: That’s correct. And so in doing so, I got on the bus, and at that time the bus rides were free, and the bus depot was fairly close to town. As a matter of fact, it was almost on the corner of Williams and Thayer, about a block to the west. So I went to the bus area and got on a bus like they said. It was labeled to the 200 area. Now, these were small military type buses. They were even painted the OD color. And I got on this thing and started out, and when we got to the 300 area, there was the major barricade across the road. Now, this was manned by military personnel. And when I looked over at the 300 area to my right, why, there was guard towers all around the area. And it was hard wire fencing and barbed wire at the top. And low profile barracks type military style construction. And I thought, Uh-oh, I don’t recall the looks of that. But, anyhow, on we went. And the reason that I make this comment was I had just, on my return to the United States I had been stationed just outside of Munich, Germany, and they had Dachau concentration camps just 17 miles out of town, and I had visited that prior to coming home. And it had a very similar position in my mind, that, hey, this is another concentration type of thing, and what in the world are we doing here? So I didn’t feel too comfortable, the 26 miles on out to the 200 areas. And as we came up the hill closest to the 200 East area and flattened out, I looked over to the right and here I could see this real long concrete building and a large smokestack, or at least a discharge stack of some sort, 200 feet in the air, and I thought, Uh-oh, no windows in this facility, and I was really getting very uncomfortable. And I thought, Well, I don’t know whether I like this or not, I don’t want to be a part of something that’s like the concentration camps where... Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: So on we went to the 200 West area. When I got off the bus, why, I had the real strong feeling that I wanted to go back to town. So I went in the batch house and I asked them what time the next bus went back to town. Because there were no private vehicles at that time. And they said oh, there wouldn’t be another bus, there’d be a shuttle bus later on, that I might be able to they said, “By the way, who do you want to see?” And at that time I was asked to get in touch with Randy Fenninger (phonetic) of DuPont. So they said, “Well, here, we’ll get him on the phone.” So they called Randy, and he answered very quickly, and he says “We’ll be right up to pick you up.” So in just a very few moments, here came a car, a company car, and again it was in the OD color. And I got in the car, and they started down, and I told them, I said, “I’m really uncomfortable about this.” And Randy says “Well, you needn’t be, we’ll explain a few things to you as we go.” So he started telling me a little story about and, of course, the news on what was going on at Hanford had already broken and had been published in the papers. That was one of the reasons that I came home very early. So the story continued to be, “All right, we’re going down to the laboratory, and this is the 222-T laboratory, and we’ll start here and give you a little bit of an insight.” But they said “Bear in mind that everything that is on the site is very much in the high security type activities. Anything related to processing is strictly on a need-to-know basis.” So that was the beginning and the start of my introduction to Hanford. And I got into the laboratory and immediately met some really fine people and started working. And then after I had established myself in about three or four weeks, why, they said “We need your type of help over in the 200 East area also, same building, same type of activity, for B Plant operation.” So I worked a half a day in T Plant and a half a day in the B Plant laboratories. Weisskopf: In the same day. Knight: For several years. Weisskopf: Oh, between the two? Knight: Yes. A half a day in each. And that was kind of interesting. But then we got into what was happening and the processing. And, of course, the process at that time was what they called bismuth phosphate processing. It was a batch type process. They had the cells in the canyon building, which was a long concrete structure, approximately 800 feet long, and was equipped with 40 in-ground cells from ground level and deep into the ground 28 feet. And the cells were equipped with the necessary processing equipment, and all the processing equipment in the cells were stainless steel. Weisskopf: Let me ask you this: You had a pretty good technical background just in general technical issues, but why did they take you to a laboratory for strictly chemical process, do you think? Knight: As I look back on it now, Gene, my only thoughts were that the whole process then had to be hinging around chemical operations. And that would be an ideal spot to start out and really learn the processes from the ground up. Weisskopf: Okay. Yeah. Knight: And I was very fortunate, because that was the case. The more I started learning about the process, the more intense my desire to learn. It grew and grew to where it was really exciting, because the more I learned about the process, then the more I understood about it. And the more I understood about these things, the greater the “awe” effect became, that My goodness, they’ve done all these things in such short periods of time, such as building a complete facility in 17 months, building a tank farm to support that facility in the same time frame, and at the same time doing a lot of research along the way to actually assure themselves that the process would actually work. Because most of the work initially was done on a very small scale to begin with, and then it was blown up to be a full-fledged process in a large volume plant. Weisskopf: So by the time you got there, at least it had already been proven that the process, the entire Hanford process, works. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: At least you got to step in saying Oh, whatever they were trying to do actually works. Now we can go on from that point. Knight: That’s right. And they were constantly in the experimental stage to improve their capability and abilities as to what was going on. Now, I mentioned initially that the canyon had 40 cells in it in the initial startup and operation of the facilities, and we ran that way for a number of years with using only 20 of the cells. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And then as we continued to forge ahead, and the needs and the operation continued to grow and became more and more interesting as to what happened in the process and how they could improve their abilities to produce at a higher rate. They put the second series of cells into play, and this was called parallel operation. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Knight: And we increased the output from the plant. Because, bear in mind that as this process went, it was very slow and very meticulous and very tedious in getting the maximum amount of plutonium out of the uranium that was being processed. And it was very strange, because the initial volume of material that was put into play, the uranium was in the tonnage levels, and the extracted material, the plutonium, was in the gram phase. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And that was tremendous, to run through large volumes of processing in a tank, two, three, four thousand up to as much as six thousand gallon vessels, and continue to control this, and make sure that you knew exactly what you had and where you had it in a given time in the process. Very unique. And, of course, that’s where the laboratory came in. It was actually called the process control lab. And in order to adjust and maintain the process, why, samples had to be taken at each step during the processing. As the material went from one phase of extraction in the separation to reduction, oxidation reduction type phase, why, you had to sample at all stages. And not only did you sample for the product, but you also sampled the waste streams to ensure that none of the product was going out in the waste streams. Or if there was any going out, it was an absolute minimum allowable. Weisskopf: Let me ask I think what is probably always going to be there, but because it was such a nationally critical material, the faster you guys got it processed, the better; and the faster you could do the sampling, the faster you could make the chemistry go, the better it would be all around? Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: Now, the process was all designed to accommodate those needs. And this was another thing that was just amazing, to know that here was a brand new introduction to a this type of energy that we had never even considered that would be available to us on a daily basis. And to have started all of this with instantaneous construction, building, and putting the buildings into what we call a turnkey operation to begin with, once it was built, you would turn the key and open the door and went in and started the processing. That was amazing. And since the construction of the process facilities was done in such a secretive manner that the construction workers that were assigned to do certain phases of putting in interconnecting piping and what not were moved from time to time, and that was usually on a day or every-other-day basis, so that they never really had a true configuration in their minds as to what was being done and how the system was being built and what it would be used for. So all of those things were highly, just mind-boggling. Weisskopf: How did that affect your job? You said they were introducing you to the entire process, the best way to learn was in the lab. How did security impinge on your knowledge of at least the separations process? Did they limit you in any way? Knight: Oh, yes. They had a very large technical manual that was available at that time of the whole buildup and the history of what was taking place in this technical manual, but you didn’t have full authorization to take the technical manual and sit down and read it at that stage. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Knight: That came later, that they made the technical manuals available to almost anyone that worked there after a period of time. Weisskopf: Did you know where the fuel was coming from, or how it was processed before it got to you guys? Knight: They started telling us this early on, that the uranium was put into a process mode and put into the reactors. And at that stage, why, it was being transmitted transmuted, I should say, to make the plutonium. Weisskopf: And what about within your process itself? Did you know when the material that you were processing ended up leaving the building and going to the concentration building. Did you understand that whole leg of the process, too? Knight: Yes, we did. Because that was all in well, within a stone’s throw of the canyon building was the laboratory, and next to the laboratory was the first phase of the concentration. It was the first phase through the operation. And once we got the plutonium in the rough-cut stage, I’ll put it that way, then it was moved from 224-T Building down to the 231-Z Building, which was the final concentration and purification operation. And the all of this was controlled, as I said, through the laboratory, and samples had to be taken in the processing facilities. In the canyon facility they had to keep the canyon in prime clean condition, because in order to get samples the way the system was built then was to take people right in on the processing deck with all the cells closed, and they had sample systems that they would go in and turn on what we called the air circulation, which was a circulated process, solution out of the vessel up through a sample receiving cup and back into the processing vessel. Well, they would circulate this for a minimum of ten minutes to ensure that they have gotten a representative sample out of this large vessel. And then they had special equipment that they inserted down into the sample cup and pulled the sample into it, and the high activity samples in the early process we used what they called a shielded trombone sampler. It was an all-stainless unit, and it had a release on it that lowered the actual sampling tip down into the solution. Then they used a syringe to pull the solution into a pipette that was at the bottom of this sampler. And those pipettes that were used on the bottom of the sampler were calibrated to a ½ or 1 ml. And the real hot ones, of course, we only took a ½ ml. And then the unit was retracted up into a shielded portion of the sampler, and then we had a shielded container called a doorstop that was placed very close to the sample port that was immediately transferred then into the doorstop. And at that point the sample pipette was disengaged from the sampler assembly, and then the lid on the doorstop was closed with a handle that clamped down and held the top of it sealed so in the event that it was tipped over it didn’t spill. And then they carried that by hand to a wagon. In the early stages, we didn’t have the wagons to begin with, and they would carry these then from there to the building, and that was to the 222 T Building, where I was. Then when the samplers came in the door of the 222 laboratory, they had a special window right inside the door on the right-hand side as they entered, and they rang a bell, which was a push-button bell at the window, and then they set the sampling equipment up on the Dutch door type platform on top of the at the bottom of the window. Weisskopf: So they wouldn’t actually have to come into the lab? Knight: They did not. Then we’d open the door and pull the sampler equipment in and set it down on the stainless steel benches. Weisskopf: Would you pull just the doorstop, or all the trombone and everything else? Knight: Any sampling equipment that they brought over at that time. Sometimes it would take two or three samples while they were in the building, or in the canyon, and would take the process samples that contained the product. And that’s what it was always referred to, we never talked about it being plutonium. You always spoke of the product. And then they would also take waste samples, because, as I said, as they processed from stage to stage in the canyon building, they would take the sample of the product to ensure that they still had it, and the volume and the condition of it as far as isolation. And then the waste that came off of that, they took samples of those waste streams and brought those over to the building. And naturally as you’re processing this way, wastes are very important to get out of the building. Otherwise they’d back up and fill your vessels, would shut you down. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: So that’s kind of the way the process always emanated and controlled, and it was really very interesting. Weisskopf: What was your job actually, then, you know, a few months after you got there? What was your daily routine? You were in the lab? Knight: In the lab. As soon as they found out that I could use the pipetting equipment, because, again, college chemistry, if you remember, taking samples, everybody used to draw the sample up into the pipettes in college labs by mouth. And this was an absolute no-no, and you didn’t do that sort of thing. So the way we done it out there was we had these small syringes, the same type that the medical profession uses to inoculate you. And different sizes. The smaller volumes that you were going to work with, the smaller the syringe that you needed, down to where but you couldn’t go too tiny because you were going to hold this in your hand. And attached to the end of the syringe was a small piece of intravenous tubing that we used, and then the pipette was placed into the intravenous tubing to actually get a sample, especially the waste samples, were by hand. Weisskopf: If they took just a 1 ml sample, would that be enough for you guys to work with, then? Knight: It was enough to give us at least two complete analyses. If we ran an analysis and it didn’t meet the expectation that we anticipated at that phase of the process, then we were asked to verify the analysis, so we had enough sample to run it again. Weisskopf: Okay. Let me ask you this: If you took that sample early on in the process so it was hot, how close could you get to it and how long could you be near it? Knight: All right. For the real hot samples in the laboratory, we had a breakdown facility I say breakdown; actually, a dilution-type facility and it was called the Rube Goldberg, where we actually set the doorstop in behind this leaded shield window, and then we had a remote pipetter that we put a fresh pipette in, and then we would open the doorstop, and just turn it. It was on a swivel, and we’d turn it, put the pipette down into the doorstop sampler that contained the real hot stuff, and then we had a 10 ml flask units that we used to set in adjacent to that prior to opening everything up. You got everything in position before you opened the doorstop. And then you would take a minute amount, like 100 ml, of this half we had ½ ml to begin with, and then we would take 100 lambda of that and dilute it in this 10 ml vial that was almost already full of solution. And then after we done that, then we would close the doorstops and take these small vials and then dilute them to a calibrated mark so that we could make back calculations as to what volumes we were working with. Weisskopf: Right. Okay. Knight: So this was very, very important that all, when you pipette it out of the doorstop, you pipette it up to a given line on the TAPE RAN OUT Knight: to get it right on the get the meniscus right on the mark, and then transfer that into the 10 ml flask. And that was the way we worked the hot ones. That was quite routine, and it became people became very and highly proficient in doing these operations, and without getting themselves into any kind of an exposure problem. Weisskopf: And when you took a sample, was the process basically stopped at that point before they would transfer the materials on to the next step? Knight: No, no, they always waited for the results to come back before the material was moved to the next step. Weisskopf: It was. So the process would be held up while you guys were doing your work. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: And what was the pressure for you guys to get it right if for some reason you didn’t find the numbers the way you wanted? Knight: Well, they had pretty good time frames as to how long it would take the laboratory to make an analysis for them. And the only time that they really got outstandingly pushy against the laboratory was when we would have a result that they didn’t felt met the criteria for the batch that they were moving. And if that be the case, then they’d call for a re-sample, and that meant the samplers had to come back, run over and take a sample out of the canyon, rush it over to us, and that was put on what we called the rush category, and that had to be done immediately. Weisskopf: How long would that take, do you think? If you got the word that you needed a new sample until you actually had the sample in hand, would it be minutes, or an hour, or...? Knight: Well, they could have a sample to us in 30 minutes. And in most cases that would always be the situation. However, if they were going to be working in another cell in the process, like a leak or something like this, why, they would have, if they were going to have a cell block off, they normally did not let anybody in on deck when that was happening. So they would have to put a cover block back on before they could do that, and that would take by the time that they knew that they had to take a sample, they’d already told the crane operator that they had to close up because they had to take a sample. Weisskopf: Okay. And the crane operator was theoretically the only one in the canyon while things were going on? Knight: That’s correct. And he was behind a shielded parapet wall. And from his position in the crane cab, which was behind that parapet wall, then he was in a solid steel cube. Actually, I say solid steel cube, it was a cube with an operational area in it that was heavy eight-inch steel all the way around him. And then we had modified Navy periscopes, the same type that they used on the submarines, that had been modified so that they could project on a horizontal plane out, and the magnifying heads could be rotated to give him views down the canyon or straight down. And it had a three-power configuration where he could change his magnification when he was up above looking and moving, and then go down closer. And then when the cell block was off, actually get right down to where he was seeing in the cell with very good visibility. Weisskopf: Where were the lights for looking down into a cell? Knight: They had lights on the crane itself. Weisskopf: That would shine straight down? Knight: That’s right. As well as ceiling lights in the canyon. But the crane operators always used, naturally, the lights on the crane because they were a high intensity spotlight type thing. And they had four or five on each side of the bridge, as I remember, and they’d shine straight down so that his work areas were highly lit and visible. Weisskopf: If the crane operator was doing his job right, everything went, if something went wrong, there wasn’t anybody on the canyon floor to correct what he was doing or to make it easier. An awful lot of it fell on his shoulders. Knight: That’s correct. And if it was a really touchy job that he had to do, why, it was a very common practice that someone from the operations building would actually go up and ride with him when he was doing that particular job. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And that’s what I was going to say, that having had experience, some experience over the years of going out and working at the 100 B Reactor, for example, on a special project, and having been transferred out of the laboratory into the operations side of the business, and having worked in the tank farm operations over the years, why, it makes it pretty easy for me to talk about these things, Gene. Because when you’ve worked in all the different places, then you really can focus and get a good idea of all of the outcroppings and the work that went on. Weisskopf: Okay. You’ve seen the whole picture. Knight: It kind of gives you the big picture, yes. That doesn’t make me an expert, say, in the 100 areas nor in the processing facilities, because we had people that well, we had the working groups available in the various facilities, such as the chemists were working, and most of them would work in laboratories, chemical engineering personnel in the facilities, and then we always had the process chemistry group, which were all the high technical process engineering or chemical engineering type people that were always constantly looking at what was going on in the process and tell you what adjustments had to be made to get us to where we wanted to be. So it was well-controlled and well-orchestrated in the way that they done business, even from the very beginning. And that was one of the reasons that the DuPont Company was chosen, I’m sure, because of their background in chemistry and their dedicated records, or track record I should say, for doing good work and working with explosives and various types of energy that way. Weisskopf: Right. And DuPont was still at Hanford when you came, right? Knight: Yes, indeed. Weisskopf: Until almost the end of ‘46? Knight: That’s correct. They left in well, they made the transition to General Electric Company in September of ‘46. And then they stayed available on an advisory capacity in high echelon positions until General Electric had settled in and had full control. Weisskopf: How quickly after you got there did your job all of a sudden change, or did they shift you around? Knight: It was pretty much on an individual’s abilities and capabilities versus the availability of new jobs, different places. And, of course, we have to bear in mind that a number of things were taking place. There was more demands for not only plutonium, but we started having people in the high forehead area, I’m going to say, that were already looking at possibilities for utilizing some of the other radioisotope materials that we were discovering. There was constant research going on in a number of the colleges around the country that were included in the program, Berkeley being one. And those people were getting actual samples of some of our materials, and they were also doing a lot of research, and development was just coming and going as fast as you could ever want it. So at that stage it was pretty tough to really get totally on board as to what was happening because so much and so many things were happening simultaneously. But it was all going, and it was really exciting because you knew, you could just sense the high intensity of things that were happening. And I’ve often said that I hated to go home from work in the afternoons, and I couldn’t wait till I got there the next morning. Weisskopf: Wow. Knight: It was really great. And, of course, that continued to energize and grow into what I call the Fabulous Fifties, when they radioisotope business became high reality, and separations were actually starting to separate specific isotopes that they found would have a need in the public markets for various things, up to and including the treatment of cancers that we’re still using today. Weisskopf: And I guess the prospects for nuclear energy itself were pretty darn high at that point. Knight: Extremely high. And, Gene, I have to say that we did not get off on the right foot with nuclear energy because it started out as a war born thing and initially was classified to have a 20-year life expectancy. And it was looked upon, every time you say anything about nuclear energy, the first thing they see is the big mushroom cloud, and the aspects of a war developed industry that was strictly to win a war. And that was so true at the time. But after we were into the thing for a while, then it became highly apparent that there was a lot of good things to come out of the system for the benefits of humanity. But it became a very difficult sell, because people had already been I won’t say poisoned in their minds, but had already been predestined to make decisions on the basis of it was a war type material and that’s all it was good for. And it’s a shame, because we know that we had well, I’ll cite the space program, NASA’s programs. In the early stages it was not too difficult for them to shoot a man up in the air and bring him back to earth in a short durational thing. But then they started extending their time in space, and they had to go to highly energized systems because everything was battery operated then, and they were using solar power to regenerate the batteries. And after we got up and starting orbiting, why, they got into some real close problems of not being able to bring personnel back, because when they got on the back side of the planet, the moon, this sort of thing, why, they were in the dark side, and they couldn’t solar energize batteries. And we were very close on a couple of occasions on return trips. And so during that phase, why, some generators were made, and Hanford played a major role in it, the Battelle Industries did, on building what we called snap generators. And they were used in space and still are, to my knowledge. So there were benefits in that light. And, again, from a medicinal standpoint, there were those benefits. And I guess the person that said it the very best in my book was Dixie Lee Ray, the administrator for the Atomic Energy Commission, and she stood before Congress and told them that the things that we were developing and using in the nuclear industry were no different than when things were developed such as electricity and people were injured and killed by misuses of electricity, but then we finally got it to where everybody now can walk into a room and flip a little switch and we have no problems with it. And I thought that that was an outstanding way to present something like that. And she said just think what it’s given the individual, the working class people in this world, when back in the days of the pharaohs with all of their money and magnificence, they did not have that type of control and services. And she felt that the nuclear industry was well on the road to getting us into that same category. And, to me, that just opened a whole new way of life for everybody, and I think that it still has that opportunity, and someday we’ll regret the fact that we’ve been so emphatic and vicious in shutting down our systems in this country. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. To me, it’s like the discovery was made and it will always be there now. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: How we utilize it and what ways we put it to use. Knight: And we’ve already demonstrated that under proper control and constantly upgraded maintenance programs, why, the systems work well to supply high energy needs. And unless I need to say too much more, Gene, I’m going to say that in my book, from what I know about the wars in history and our current wars and positions, that nations that have had energy and utilized their energies in proper perspective, were always people that were respected and controlled, or had controls, I’ll say. And as we continue to reduce our ability to have energies and be in control positions puts us in jeopardy, and I feel that very strongly. Weisskopf: Interesting. That’s very good. To have a perspective on that whole career that you had really, to me, it makes me realize that you were excited about it. It was something brand new, it was totally undeveloped, and you got to see it start from almost nothing to a thousand different industries branching out of it. It’s really great. Knight: And I think that that was one of the reasons that I enjoyed, even after retirement, of staying and helping whenever I could. And I still feel very strongly that the industry still has its place and someday will probably utilize it a little bit better than we have. Weisskopf: Yeah. You never worked in the private sector? Knight: I never have worked in the private sector. Weisskopf: Was it always within the confines of Hanford? Knight: Yes, indeed. Weisskopf: Okay. You didn’t travel around the country doing Knight: Did not. Weisskopf: what other people did? Knight: Oh, on a couple of occasions I did, Gene. But it was only because we had a specific interest in a given type function, such as and I’ll mention one. We were very interested in reducing waste volumes at Hanford, and the best way to do that would be to size the waste that you were going to put into boxes to be buried into the ground. And we were looking at setting up a sizing operation of our own in the plutonium finishing plant, and one of the other companies in the nation that was at that time at Rocky Flats in Colorado had let us know that they were already doing some sizing type work. And a couple of us were sent down to look at it. I say a couple. There was a number of trips made. And then from a health physics standpoint, because I was in health physics at the time, they sent people like myself and Bernie Sariffic down, and we made an observation as to what they were doing and whether it was compatible with the way we like to do business at Hanford. And it turned out that we had already put our oar in the water, so to speak, and the program that we had outlined for Hanford was going to be superior to the program that they had at Rocky Flats. So it was things like that that were also very interesting. Weisskopf: Have you ever seen any of the fuel processing facilities in Europe, or where they use them for part of their normal commercial stream? Knight: Only from information and documentation that I had looked at here. Now, I did make a trip to Belgium in 1993, strictly a private type thing on the request of one of my sons-in-law to go with him, because he was looking at starting another little business of his own, importing pigeon feeds, because he’s a pigeon racer. Weisskopf: And while you were there... Knight: So we got a chance to look around a little bit. And at that time Belgium had one reactor in service, and was just bringing on the second, and had already started the process of building their third, which would have put them at 100% nuclear utilization. And, of course, then interest in other countries. The French, for example, were getting up into the area of about 70%. Weisskopf: These people have to deal, then, with fuel reprocessing and all the associated chemistry. Knight: Exactly. Weisskopf: And it would be interesting, I guess, to see how they’re doing that. Knight: Well, it certainly would be, because I know that we’re getting and I refer to it as constipated, because we’re not reprocessing any fuels now, and all of our power reactor people are having problems with backup storage of their spent fuel, and that’s going to catch up to us. As a matter of fact, it’s become a very, very real problem at this time. Weisskopf: Yeah. But in your experience, it would have been a really straightforward step up from what you were doing with separations to dealing with the commercial power plants around the country to reprocess their fuel? Knight: That’s correct. But we had already made the studies, Gene, and had that information available. As a matter of fact, we had already started making some equipment conversions in the PUREX plant to accommodate commercial fuel reprocessing. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And that’s all on record. Weisskopf: And I guess some of the down sides of that are you have to transport it around the country. Knight: That’s true. But we’re still transporting wastes around the country. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And I think that will continue. As a matter of fact, I sat in on a very interesting discussion in Yakima here probably eight or nine years ago now, where they had people convinced here in Yakima that we should just absolutely refuse to let them truck any wastes through Yakima or any that fly over in Yakima. And during the course of the discussion, from inputs from people like myself and others, why, it became highly apparent that, hey, if you do that, you have to remember that you’re going to shut your hospitals down, you’re not going to be able to have the x-ray equipment calibrated from time to time like we have to do to make sure that it’s within bounds. And all of a sudden they said uh-oh, okay, maybe we’re trying to get the cart before the horse. And I think all too frequently we do that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: And it’s an understandable thing, especially when we’ve had such a tremendous training program where everything nuclear was war oriented. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: It’s going to take a long time to phase out of that, and I think we’re eventually getting there. People are a little bit more friendly towards nuclear industry, and they’re seeing that we’re still building new cancer clinics everywhere and using isotopes to treat those people in dire need. And I think that we’ve got to really look at everything with a good strong sense of realism, that hey, go back with what I originally said about Dixie Lee Ray saying that we injured people when we first introduced electricity, and she also made mention of the fact that we’ve done the same thing with gasoline, another form of energy that we all use today. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: We use very carelessly at this stage in our lives, in many cases. Weisskopf: Oh, yeah. There was a time when we were running out of gasoline. Somehow or other we’re not running out of it anymore. Knight: It’s very strange. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: Well, we’re buying now a lot of our oils and products from other countries, too, and this is another one of those areas that gives me concern is that we’re putting ourselves on the table and being dependent on everybody else rather than depending on ourselves again. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: Especially in the forms of energies. Weisskopf: Hey, it’s been about an hour, and I maybe want to let you go before we drain you completely for this period of time. Knight: I really appreciated the opportunity, Gene, and it’s a real pleasure. Weisskopf: Me very much so also. It’s great that you feel comfortable about remembering it. That in itself is a feat, I think, for all the experiences that you had over many years. It’s just great to have you laying it out like cards on a table. Would it be okay if I come up with specific questions for you that we do it again? Knight: Absolutely. Absolutely. Anytime, Gene. Weisskopf: All right. Well, thank you very much, Russ. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58 minutes, 47 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Russ Night Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Russ Night conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb6ff5a963a5145a17740f4cfcfa037f0.MP3 941610da76725375c756675855c7ff4f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harry Zwiefel Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound START Okay, well my name is Harry Zweifel and I was a shift at B area during the startup, I was a uh, shift supervisor on what they called patrol. We wandered around the building and saw that everything was as it should be, no radiation, undue radiation and so on. What was your experience before Hanford? Well my experience before Hanford started out in uh, with DuPont in explosives, uh, TNT back at Kankakee and then I ran a training school in Wisconsin up at uh, Barksdale for TNT operators. And during the period of a 1940, latter part of ‘41 and ‘42 uh, I was in, as I say, in operations and in training school and uh, we followed the construction of the TNT lines and then the startups thereof and I was sort of a monohouse what they call a monohouse specialist. And then following the, as soon as all twelve were operating why uh, I became in charge of a shift in uh, TNT and uh, then was on days as the senior supervisor, actually an apprentice senior supervisor, I guess, and uh, one day early in uh 1944 I received a call from the head office TNT and the superintendent told me that uh effective, it was Friday, effective that Monday I was transferred on loan from DuPont to the University of Chicago. And I said “Well what am I going to do?” and he says “I don’t know, nobody told me, they’ll tell you when you get up there.” On Monday morning, uh, I think it was early February by that time that I went up and I was told by a fella named Dr. Kircher Q. Bellis that uh, that they’re going to split the atom, they’re going to make an atom bomb. And my job was going to be helpin em develop the uh, semaworks(?) under west stands doing the separations, developing the process for separating plutonium from the metals and I stayed there until I came out here and that was uh, I think that really was, things are starting to blur now but it was the end of a 1944. And we uh, I was following construction of the B reactor, my particular responsibility was what they call Bellfield valves. You remember those George? They were uh, they were the valves that permitted us to quickly drop the, so called, poison solution into the vertical safety rods in case of a uh, of a an event where the reactor was gonna run away and you couldn’t get the VSR’S in and then this liquid went in all the thimbles. I spent about 3 months up there workin on the Bellfield valves and droppin the materials and timing it and so on. And then once construction was done why I went in to uh, as I say, the patrol unit. What was your experience in Chicago? Well in Chicago, when I went up there, we went in to the uh, under the west stands the (unclear) works and it was quite an experience. We had the, we had the squash court right next to Dr. Fermi’s reactor, his first reactor was... and they were just finishing their experiments and decided that yeah they could uh, keep the uh, reaction going and uh, we were building then the (unclear) works and we built it all ourselves because they wouldn’t let any laboring people in based on the security. You were building the? The tanks, we, all the tanks and the piping for the, run running the solutions. We had our own little dissolver and then we’d jet over into these tanks. We had plastic lines and oh we had quite a time. We learned how to melt lead bricks, built our own shielding and so on. We did it all ourselves. Later on why we even got into a what later became the redux operation, we were doin uh, extraction with the liquids (unclear). We built that ourselves. And I became a, towards the end, I became the uh, supervisor in charge of the actual operation there. What did Fermi do in Chicago and you in relation to that? Well ok. Fermi was strictly on the reactor side. And he was uh, he was the man that was doing all the studies on the graphite, how they moderate it, how the neutrons acted and so on. And at that time they were still trying to prove that they could sustain the uh, nuclear reaction. And uh, that was uh, I think that was the time it may have been in B reactor startup but I don’t think so. Something about the Italian navigator has landed and so on; which was the signal that uh, the reactor could be made self-sustaining. And that was, that was a key right there, if it, if it hadn’t that would have been it. What was the nature of the fuel in Chicago and how handled? Uh George, I don’t, the fuel, I don’t really know exactly, as I say, I was, you know, they, I was on the chemical side. But uh, they had a radioactive solution, rather potent, I think, a source that they were using. And beyond that, I really don’t know how their, how their reaction... It may not have been slugs at all? Oh no, no I don’t think it was, no. Uh, I’m not, well they could have uh gotten Clinton slugs, they had some, you know, from their reactor down there. And later on we started up our summer works that’s what we were running is the Clinton slugs, they were sending those up. But, it if I can digress a little bit, Fermi was such a wonderful character, I just, (?). Uh, when we first, when I first got up there, he, they held an orientation for, oh maybe, 20 people. And uh, Ave Compton was there, Regner was there, Phil Morrison was there talkin physics and uh, they would each get up and they said what they had - these people there doin this and these people there doin that. There’s several sites, you see. Uh, Fermi, they all stood at the rostrum and uh, rather formal. Uh, Fermi got up there and he, first thing he sat on the edge of a table lookin at...and he always had a little stub of a pencil. No, maybe two, three inches long, that’s all, he played with that and so he stuck it in his ear and so on. So he was telling us what he did. He said: “Well I have these people at site B, they do this and I have these people over there, that do this.” He said: “Well I’ve got people all over, I don’t know what they’re doin.” He was kind of a breath of fresh air. He could meet em in the halls and of course there’s long halls in front of the squash courts and you could stop him, ask him a question, he’d stop and answer. So would Morrison. But some of the rest of em were more standoffish and too busy to mess around with a guy like me. But uh, Fermi was there and I really had nothing to do with him except meeting him in the halls and hearing him in a lecture and so on. He did have a certain charisma. Oh, he, he was, he was. He was just a comfortable old shoe. (Chatter) What was the importance of DuPont in this? Absolutely. The function of the DuPont Company I don’t think they ever received all the recognition that they should have. When, when you consider the design and the construction of these facilities and how successful they were, right from the beginning, it it’s astounding. I just think it’s beyond belief that they could do it and as far as I’m concerned DuPont was were the star of the whole outfit. And they sent good people out here; they had, boy, they had good people, top notch. Such that... (Chatter). Well DuPont, DuPont would, I think that they never received the applause that they should have for the job they did. With the, nobody’d ever had a reactor other than the few blocks of graphite laid up and uh, in B squash court, uh, and we built the thing, designed and built it and it was successful almost right from the beginning as far as the reactor goes. There was a mistake made in how many, how much uranium you needed to keep the reactor goin so that you weren’t poisoned out by the iodine, but uh, it was an astounding thing. Uh, as I said, they had excellent management and they sent their best out here. They had some real good people and they were so much different than some that we had from then on, it seems to me. Why do you think DuPont chose to leave when they did? I think that DuPont at that time were kind of fed up with the way things were being run here. Uh, later on I think they were, you know, they were brought back in to Savannah and I think they hated that. And I really believe that this work and the Savannah work really set them behind as a chemical company, if you look at em now they’re havin a tough time, they’re, where it was all owned by the family now its own considerably by uh, Bronfran (?) who’s a liquor distiller and uh, and in a, not happily. I think that they, they really got behind on a lot of their research and so on in that long period where they were doing other things. How were you recruited or were you assigned to come out here? Like I say, they called me in on a Friday afternoon and said you’re transferred on loan to the University of Chicago, be up there on Monday morning. We were in Kankakee, of course and just 35 miles outside of Chicago so it was no great big thing bein there but it was a shock especially when you ask the superintendent of TNT “Well, what am I going to do there?” And he says “Nobody told me, he says, I don’t know.” And it was an entirely new, different group of people, you know, more uh, uh, scientifically oriented. PHD’s all over the place and some names you had heard and so on. What was the transition to Hanford then? Well that was uh, I was just telling George, Ward Botsford who was a friend of mine and he was he was back there at site B makin mirrors for instrumentation. So we were gonna come out here together and we both had cars, so we rented a tow bar. And his car was bigger so we towed mine. And so we drove out here. And I think, along about a, a little bit south of Spokane we both would have gladly turned around and gone back, what are we doing in a place like this? You know. It was quite a shock from a pair of city boys to see the desert and nothing, nothin around there and couldn’t see how we could do anything out here. Of course, we both knew what we were gonna do out here, but sure didn’t look like a very good place to do it. You were towing one car because of gas rationing? Yeah, um uh. And uh, that way we could both drive and we made a few side trips, did a day’s fishing at Yellowstone Park. But we got out here and went into the transient quarters and wasn’t went through the next day security and then we were, I was out in the area and Ward was, I’ve forgotten where they sent him. But there was an interesting thing there too on this transition. After being for a year and a half in uh, chemical separations and so on, I got out here and they said I was gonna be in the reactor. I’d never, I’d seen a reactor and it was really a surprise. And I didn’t want to do it because I really had an awful lot of experience in the one place and uh, I really had quite a bit of jump, you might say, on most of the other people who would be here. But it was real interesting, all my notebooks from (unclear) I got out here and they were too classified for me to see. I never did get em. So we went out to, we went out to the area, I went out to the area then, B and uh, followed construction, went through the startup and went through startup of F and then I went over to 200 areas for uh, more construction following and startup over there. I got, that’s where I got the unfortunate name of bein in construction and startups I think is that followed me all the rest of my life. What was the overall mood of country? That’s, it was. Well, you know, we were still losin a lot of lot of uh, soldiers and marines uh, going into these various islands, the McArthur island hopping. And uh, you saw the uh bloody pictures of Tarawa and you saw a lot of the pictures of Guadalcanal and so on and so forth. Uh, I think that there was still a great deal of tension and so on while you began to see that on the long run that uh, that the Japanese were going to lose but at the same time you knew that there was gonna be an awful lot of American lives lost. It was not a happy situation. And, of course, that’s one reason why I was happy to see em drop the bomb because I’m convinced that saved many many thousands of American lives. (And Japanese lives perhaps). It might have because, you know, by that time they’d had their fire storms over Tokyo and it’s questionable whether uh whether the bomb killed more than those fire storms did over Tokyo, I’m not sure. What was it like to see the project for the first time? Through the dust storms, well we saw the through the dust storms and that’s where you, a lot like we had this spring. Those we would have called termination winds in the old days. But, it was an amazing thing. I think, if I remember the numbers, there was over 100,000 construction workers here and they had their dormitories uh, from uh, the old Hanford area and down in there. And actually, that was one of the places we used to be able to go at night to get a pitcher of beer. But you never went by yourself because there was some rough characters. There was all sorts of stories in those days, uh, about, you know they kept the men and women separated by big barb wire fences and there was all sorts of stories goin on there. And there were fights, a lot of fights, and uh, a patrolman at that time, I don’t know whether he was kiddin me or not, came off a shift and he said he’d found a body in a garbage can. That’s quite possible cause there was some rough people. But uh, dust storms, all the houses were still being, most houses were still being built. And you had the big argument about what kind a house you’re gonna have. And of course, well I lived in a dormitory for three months. My wife was back in Illinois, with our one little boy. And it was not a particularly happy period. You looked at it as, well this is a job, there’s others in the Army doin a lot worse that this, so uh, you’d grit your teeth and you didn’t sign up for the termination wind (unclear). What about the scope of the project? Well, time let’s see, what was it, the 550 square miles if I’m not mistaken it was something like 5 to 600,000,000 dollars’ worth of construction and uh, it was so vast it, we didn’t know everything that was goin on, what was bein built, and being built fast. And then, there was a shortage of material. You waited a lot of times for some valves to come in, of course, we had it a lot easier than any place else in the country other, of getting material. That was real interesting, you know, there was an awful lot of waste, a lot of thievery went on, cause a, a lot of the people in construction they had they’d gather them from anywhere they could. Can you remember the first time you saw B Reactor? It looked monstrous, it looked so big. And you gotta bear in mind. Can you give me a full statement? Yeah, the first time I saw a reactor was the first reactor I’d ever seen, other than the little pile. (Chatter) When I first went in there why I was pretty green about the reactors. I had to start readin manuals real fast to find out what was, what the was gonna do there and how it happened. Because uh, there was this tremendous block and of course they were still, still putting up a, a the B blocks and so on and they were starting puttin up graphite inside there and we got to see all that and uh, uh, that was quite uh, edify, for my edification and education. But it was a tremendous place. I be, I’d wondered whether I’d ever understand what it was all about and how to get around it. And then, of course, there was, we were a little leery about that much radiation, uh, the emphasis certainly was on safety. That’s why I found it so difficult to think, to hear that DuPont did so much other, down in Savannah, something doesn’t ring true. Or else it’s a different breed of cattle maybe, I don’t know. Refrigeration Facilities. Well, it, the facility, refrigeration facilities were in B. Each one of the reac, water plants, you know, had something a little different to them. And I think you’re right. I think B had a refrigeration system. F had somethin about a water treatment system, I don’t remember what uh, D had. But uh, they were tremendous units, but there again George, the separations of the people, I never went over into a water plant. You know, to see what was going there. First of all, we didn’t, we didn’t leave the building in uh, the early days toward, after we started up why then they started goin to the change house to each lunch. But outside of that you didn’t go. And you certainly, if you were a reactor man, you didn’t go over and go around the water plant, you know. So we were uh, we knew of course, how much water was comin over. We knew somethin about the quality of it, we knew the pressure. We knew a little bit more about 190 and the pumping because that was so important to us. But when you start gettin down on the, as you say the refrigeration, or some of the water treatments or the filtration plant of the river, I think it was probably uh, I don’t think I got to the river pump house until after I came back here in ‘46 and was in engineering design and did some work down at the river pump house. Only then did I see some of that stuff. It was probably intended to cool the water. Yeah, that that’s right. You, you weren’t, you, like a I heard Don say on the cooling, we were always trying something different, you know, and there was so much unknown in the beginning. I marvel sometime at how quickly we’ve progressed because really in the beginning uh, you were cautious because you didn’t know that much, how it was gonna, bear, look look - as an example that uh, while Fermi and Compton had an idea that the reactor might die from pois, xe, xenon poisoning, but uh, they weren’t real sure of that. They weren’t sure enough that they didn’t go ahead and start and see what happened. And that was a lot of our, a lot of our training. Uh, but you lean so far over backwards on safety that uh, I never, I never felt endangered. Tell us about instrumentation for measuring radiation levels. Well, you’re probably more George, as far as instrumentation measurin, you probably know way more about that than I do. Of course, we all had our chances in the early days of carryin a Beckman (?) around and when we did anything. But uh, they were pretty crude. And you got one arm longer than the other. They must of weighed 35 pounds wouldn’t you think? And we’d traipse all around checkin on leaks and doin this and that, uh... (Chatter) Beckman was an instrument, George can tell you more about it, for really, just only measured (?)(?) (?). Didn’t it George? And uh, we would go around the building with these, we were always checkin to make sure that there were no leaks and no stray radiation and uh, uh, that was one of the jobs that the patrol people did and in com in combining with the radiation monitoring experts. Were you checking with each level? Yeah, yeah, at the doors to the rear face, you know, to make sure that the air flow was in the right direction and nothin leakin out from the door. We went across the top of the reactor and uh, made sure that there was no gas leaking up there. Of course, we didn’t go within the circle of the VSR’s. So you were working in B at the same time as patrol? In B, yeah. (You were there at startup?) Oh, yeah. Well that was, that was a terrible thing cause we didn’t know that much about it. But we started up and uh, very low level, of course, and I was on 4 to 12 at that time. And we came in the next day and everybody had a long face and they were all unhappy that the reactor was dying from the xenon poisoning. And uh, well it went down. Fermi and Marshall, Dr. Marshall and his wife, they were a young pair of physicists and very good. They worked with a Fermi a lot and uh, Morrison was there, Compton was there and they were burnin up their slide rulers. And uh, it didn’t take them too long and they said well okay you just have to put in uh, several more slugs per column and uh, we think we’ll be alright. As I remember, that’s what they said, we think we’ll be alright. So we went up very fast and as I recall, we put in about uh, about 50 more inches of slugs and uh, we were doin that as fast as we could, as a matter of fact it’s kind of interesting. Doc Marshall was a nice young guy and you could talk to him a lot, and uh, we had these old charging machines. Uh, you put a, you put your slug, you take it out of a box, you put it on a little ramp and it rolled down and then you had a lever and you pushed that. And I got him on one of the machines charging and then wouldn’t give him any relief. And he, he kept talkin “Come on, I gotta go somewhere” and I said well, you just stay and do a few more tubes and you’ll be alright. And he laughed and he was a good sport about it but uh, uh, that was a real critical period. And you wondered, you know, you had, you had to have faith that Compton and those guys knew what they were doin and they did. How did information about the second startup hit you? Well, on the second startup how did we feel. Well, you had to have confidence, especially those that came from Chicago, there weren’t too many but, but we had great confidence in Fermi and Morrison and the uh, and the Marshals. And like I say, as you had heard, you could look from the office into the control room and you could see them and they’re burnin up their slide rules and talking and so on and they came out and with the solution, proposed solution, adding extra uranium and uh, you know, at that time as I say, we were not that knowledgeable. A lot, especially me, coming from the 200 area operation you know I, I didn’t uh, it took a long time, I had a fine guy workin, that I was workin for at that time, Fran Mask, very intelligent guy and had achieved a lot of na, of knowledge at Clinton Labs. And he explained to me about iodine and how it degraded into xenon and xenon captured the neutrons so that there wasn’t uh, could be a sustained reaction. So, it was, it was a bad period because there wasn’t the confidence that the thing would, gonna go, you know, general confidence. You hoped and you thought it probably would, but you didn’t dare bet on it. And we were we were all anxiously waiting that next startup and, as I say, I was on 4 to 12 and we uh, between the 4 to 12 people and the l2, 12 to 8 people we finished the recharging the extra metal and they started up on day shift. And uh, the boy, when we came on at 4:00 then the boys on the day shift were breathing a big sigh of relief. That was obviously a milestone. A tremendous milestone. What other milestones were there in that process? Well, you gotta, you know, after a prolonged period is kinda what I looked at, if you remember that the reactors were said to be designed for 250 megawatts, and uh, I think one of the big, big milestones was when we raised from 250 to 400 megawatts. Of course, that paled to the 2,000 that we got later on. But uh, it was awful big, awful big. You had to make a little changes, raise the pressure of your 190 pumps and uh, do a little reorificing and so on. But it was a great thing, because we, by that time we knew, hey we can run these things. And uh, a matter of fact we were probably gettin a little cocky, but uh, that was the big one. Feedback and upgrading- was that significant? Well, it was to me because, you see, I left in May of ‘45, I left the 200 areas and went to rocket powder and uh, went around after rocket powder went to 3 or 4 more plants for du, for DuPont and by that time I was firmly in the design phase, design and construction and startup. And I was goin from plant to plant, so. We had two children at that time so uh, I quit DuPont and I hated to do that and came back here. And when I came back here I went into operations for a short time again, just to get my feet on the ground, but then I went into straight engineering design and I, I had part of building DR, building and design DR & H and uh, eventually ended up following all of the K reactors for opera for operations. Being in on design of those, so. In this early period, was there any problem with fuel failure? Oh yeah. That, that’s probably another milestone with the fuel failures. And uh, we were a frightened bunch of puppies when we realized that we had a slug with a hole in it, you know. And uh, uh, the first the first episodes at getting that out and how to do it, the, all learning, hadn’t been done anywhere before, you know. And uh, had to build all the equipment, how to push it, what do you do with it when you push it out the rear pigtail into the pool. How do you handle that? What about the water there, is it gonna be contaminated so badly. So that was a, that was a real milestone, George, I’m glad you mentioned that. Later on, of course, we ran at such high power levels and uh, high temperatures and we had a lot of em and I can remember one time we had a, we had a, it was at H, we had a critical W - you remember that’s when you shut down for lack of, for lack of electrical backup. And, we had been watching a specific tube in the H reactor, feeling that it was going to be a rupture or gonna stick. So when they shut down uh, we went into getting that out. Sure enough it was a sticker, but we got it out before the critical W was over. And that was, that was quite different than the first time. I think the first ruptured slug or stuck slug we were down for a week. Some did occur at B Reactor during the initial low level operation. Well George, whether there was an original loading, whether there was any fuel elements, I guess I’ve forgotten that if it did. It’s kinda, it certainly is uh, I think, probable but I just don’t remember if we did. Marshall- One of the early professional women out there. I think she was. Um uh. As you know, in the beginning, we had no women out there. The nurse was the only woman in the area. Uh, but, Mrs. Marshall, I’ve forgotten what her name was now, she was a good physicist in her own right and I don’t remember any other women being active in the work at that time. She was a Fermi protégé. What factors made it possible to achieve this? First of all, I think it had number one priority in the country, backed by the president. It was in a war time period where there was a different attitude towards work, I think. You had your Rosie the Riveters and we had our people out here just as dedicated, I think. Get it done, get it done. And uh, you worked. Well, in the beginning, you know, we worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week - we didn’t uh take time off. We’d get home, go down to the cafeteria and eat go back to our dormitory a couple hours playin bridge or whatever, go to bed, get up and do the same thing all over. Uh, so you had the priorities, you had the work ethic and you had a pretty high cadre of well-trained people. Well, here’s an example. Uh, if you were asst. superintendent back with DuPont back there you came out here you what they called an area supervisor. If you were a uh, area supervisor and you came out here you’d be a senior supervisor. I was a senior supervisor, came out here and was a shift supervisor. So, you had, you had people, one, almost 100% engineers or chemists or whatever the discipline was required and most of them had shown some potential or they wouldn’t have been here. There was an awful lot of real good people left back - Kankakee, Memphis and a few other places. They skimmed the cream off, they thought. Some of em weren’t so creamy. DuPont was a great company. Well, of course I don’t, my thought is that DuPont was the best. Uh, and my feeling is that each succeeding contractor went down just a little bit and uh right towards to end, well I think it started with GE. You sent two type of people out here, as far as I’m concerned. This may be heresy but, you sent two type of people out here. You sent out young ones that you want to see whether they can advance to the next dead, or you set, sent out some people who were at a dead end and uh, sent out here, okay here’s a little reward but we’re gonna get rid of you too. But I think you had excellent people. Design wise, design and engineering wise, DuPont at that time, was the best in the country, I’m sure of that. Overall technical and industrial capacity of the U.S. made it possible. Oh, well yeah. We’re on the war time footing, you know, and we’re putting out the maximum effort with good people. The work ethic was there. My chemical experience here was, when I left, after we got B & F reactor, as you might imagine, the 200 areas were behind the reactors in construction. The main the primary job here was to get the reactors built and then the separations. So I followed the design and construction of a 221B and 221U. The only one I missed was 221T. And uh, I stayed there then for the startup of 221B, I was I was in charge of the control office. And uh, then of course that’s when I left there in September, May of ‘45. I didn’t want to leave. I tried to stay another week but Bill Kay said “You get out of here, you’re transferred.” So then you went where? Oh then I went to Hercules rocket powder and we learned to make rocket powder there. Then I went down to Indiana plant 2 and we built that rocket plant. It was a $75,000,000 plant as I re, no $275,000,000. We made 207,000 pounds of rocket powder, we started up in about uh, mid-June. Dropped the bomb August the 8th and we shut it, started shuttin down on the 9th. We made 205, 207 pounds of rocket powder. I had an interesting experience there uh, I was in charge at that time of what they call final testing. It was a, ultrasonic testing, x-ray and fine final inspection. And uh, my boss told me, plant one was smokeless powder and they were gonna shut down there, he said go on over there and interview those people and hire 70 operators. So I went over there and I met with all these operators and I told them how great it was they were gonna get laid off here but they could have a job here and rocket powder was so much more important at this time that you’ll work much longer. Zweifel interview Part Two I had an interesting experience there. I was in charge at that time of what they call final testing. It was uh, ultrasonic testing, x-ray and then final inspection. And uh - plant one was smokeless powder and they were gonna shut down there - he said go on over there and interview those people and hire 70 uh, operators. So I went over there and I met with all these operators and I told them how great it was they were gonna get laid off here but they could have a job here and rocket powder was so much more important at this time that you’ll work much, much longer. Well I hired em in June and in August my boss said “Go and lay em off now.” And they were, they were not happy. What was that rocket powder to have been used for? Oh, well you’ve seen these rockets in the war games and so on, at uh, the propellant for explosives, you know. And, boy, we’d burn, it was really? 50% nitroglycerin, 50% nitrocotton; and uh we made a lot of different shapes but they were (unclear) shape. Mark, mark 18 was 39 pounds, and we burned the, in the testing we burned the uh, 39 pounds in a little over 2 seconds. What did that end up in as far as the weapon? Well God, they put em in tanks George and they had, you’ve seen these Russians had a big batteries of them that fired and we did that too. It was quite a thing. Where were you in August of 1945? I was makin rocket powder at plant 2 in Indiana. And we were living in mud flats. And when they dropped the bomb there were a lot of people there that had come from out here, not a lot but some. And then we heard that the Japanese were gonna surrender. We had a two day party. I guess you could say “I was there”. I was there, that’s right. Remember immediate reaction when you heard that? Oh man. Well, return to, return to a peace time life. Get outta mud flats, at the, living conditions there were the, way worse than out here. We had a little pot belly wood stove in the living room and uh, water recirculated through there for hot water. It was miserable and uh, uh, just well, you can imagine. No more of your friends were gonna be gettin shot up uh, we could live a lot different. You know, after a while your, there were a lot of things that were short. Stand in line for this and that. And uh, just lookin forward to peace time. Any other Reflections on the whole experience? Well, in reflecting back I always felt privileged to have been a part of it. And uh, you always felt in those days, well, you should have been in the service. And I went, I went up in Chicago and twice tried to get into the Navy and each time they’d say - “Well, what are you doin now?” And I’d say well I’m in explosives. “There’s the door, get out.” But uh, you AL, you always felt that you should have been, in your age group, you should have been in the army and not out here. You felt glad that was over. But you did feel that uh, some sense of gratification that you had some part in ending the war. Anything else you’d like to pass to future generations? Well, I wish I could tell more of this generation that they’re makin a big mistake if they don’t proceed with a use, the peaceful use of the atom. Forget all this stuff, the unfounded rumors of what might happen and so on that our friends in Portland and Seattle seem to thrive on. And uh, we’ve sure raised a lot of family here, haven’t we George. And none of em have two heads and none of em have been poisoned. It’s quite possible to have a healthy nuclear industry. I just wish we’d get on with it because petroleum’s running out and besides petroleum’s too good to be burning in gas, in automobiles, it should be making chemicals and medicines. I have no more that I can think of. END Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harry Zwiefel Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Harry Zwiefel conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97cee4095329c8afb12f2a945f3a563e.MP3 34e4d4f3c18d3c8fbdcae90936b8fd55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alex Smith Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: Today is October 27, 1999. And why don’t you give us your name and spell the last name. Smith: Alex Smith, S-m-i-t-h. Weisskopf: Did anybody know you by a nickname when you worked here? Smith: Smitty. Weisskopf: Smitty? Okay. Smith: In the early days. Later on, they didn’t. Weisskopf: And why don’t you start out, let’s talk about what you were doing before you were assigned here and how you came to Richland. Smith: I was working at Remington Arms in Salt Lake City making 30 and 50 caliber cartridges. And the first year in operation we made enough cartridges to shoot 200 rounds at every Axis shoulder and civilian. And we made so much, and there were three other plants besides the Salt Lake plant. And we drained all the coppers all the countries’ copper stockpile, eventually had to start drawing them from steel. Naturally, they were obsolete ammunition used in World War I, so a lot of them were never used after the first year, so they closed the Salt Lake plant down. Weisskopf: Where were the other two plants? Smith: There was one in Kansas City and one in Oklahoma. And, of course, back in Remington Arms main plant. Weisskopf: Okay. So they were going to close the plant you were working in? Smith: Yes. And since Remington Arms was a subsidiary of DuPont Company, and DuPont Company was doing construction of the plant at Hanford, those who wanted to go were given opportunities of being transferred up there on a job if they had qualifications of what they needed up there. So in a very short time after March or April sometime, 1943, by the time I got there in December the 9th, they had assembled some 60,000 workers from every state in the union. At that time there were only 48 states. And they sent recruiters out all over. Weisskopf: How did they present the job to you before you went out? How did they tell you what it was? Smith: They told us nothing. They told us the interviewer says he found out I had some machine shop experience, he said if we were to be called upon to design a shop of course, later on I could tell, after I saw the shop, I saw he was trying to get people who would know how to make a layout for mass production, to machine a product, is the way he put it, to set up the machinery. And he referred to most of it as carpenter machinery. Around the room, how you’d have it designed and have your assembly lines and machining lines to get the best results. That was about the only thing that he told me. I mean, anything that had any relation to the job I was to do. Weisskopf: And did that sound better than what was your other option, if you hadn’t taken him up on that? Smith: He didn’t have one. He was specifically looking for somebody to work in the 101 Building, I suppose. Weisskopf: Okay. When did you have the interview versus actually arriving in Pasco? What was the time lag, do you think? Smith: I was on my way in about three days. Weisskopf: Did you drive out? Smith: No, they put us on a train. They paid our transportation. There was quite a I would say there were probably about 50 people came up with me. Some of them didn’t stay very long. Some of them left in a hurry. There was a the whole desert was torn up, had the first windstorm of course, this was the 9th of December, and it was cold. I remember we had what we called the cattle cars with a big semi-trailer, and it had benches on either side, and the windows were all frosted up, you couldn’t see out. When we came through Richland, they had started constructing the houses, but you couldn’t see anything. You could try to scrape a thing. And at the time I came here, construction people, the engineers and people, they were DuPont employees, would get a house in probably three or four months. They had top priority, before us. The thing went along, and they started building, they of course built three reactors first. But I guess as they knew more of what they were doing, they decided that they didn’t need that many, so they concentrated on B and finished it first. Weisskopf: And you got here in December of ‘43. Smith: Yeah, December the 9th. I remember the date. Weisskopf: How many days later was it before you showed up on the job and they were Smith: I showed up the next morning. And I was taken out to 101 Building. I already apparently had enough clearance, because there was no delay in getting in. Weisskopf: You mean the basic clearance. Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: Not a secrecy you didn’t have a real clearance? Smith: No. Weisskopf: But you were good enough for the job. They didn’t have to investigate further. Smith: Yeah. Well, I think they anybody that worked in the arms department had to have some kind of clearance. Weisskopf: Okay. Smith: Had to pass a security test. Because they had gone out to people in high school, college, university. Weisskopf: Was the 101 Building up and running when you got there? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: It was producing already? Smith: No, they had a yeah, they had one assembly line up. Weisskopf: And it was milling graphite? Smith: Yes. It was very crude, and of course it wasn’t anything like the one we finished up with. I think there was it was two or three lines, I can’t remember for sure. Weisskopf: Let me ask you again: The 101 Building, at least then, was only used for milling graphite? Smith: That’s all. Weisskopf: That was the primary purpose. Okay. Smith: Storage. Had a big storage area for raw graphite that come in un-machined. Weisskopf: And when you went in there, what did you do the first or second day? How did they orient you to ? Smith: Well, that was in the engineering department. It was a separate they worked they reported directly to DuPont. As I remember this organization, DuPont was the construction engineer, and they furnished all the design, and the equipment, and the engineering reports, write-ups and everything, how things were to be done. But this Washington, being a strong union state, why, each craft worked for their own particular craft and they were hired out of the union hall. And there was, for example, Newberry, Chandler and Lord was the electrical contractor. I can’t remember the pipefitters. But the millwrights of course was another contractor. They all reported to their separate supervision. It was a very cumbersome organization and hard to work, but the very fact that it was a war, it would never work in peacetime, but the very fact that people loyalty was at stake, and everybody cooperated and bent backwards to try to get along and work the best they could. And DuPont Company itself, they were a pretty smart outfit. They’d been through a lot of wars, ever since the Civil well, Revolution, I guess. Weisskopf: So what were you doing the second day that they showed you the room, the building? Smith: I spent two or three days with engineers, going over the whole plan, showing us from the very beginning out to the raw storage shed place, and followed everything through. And I was going to be see, at that time they only had one shift. And I spent a week in orientation. And then I was put in charge of the swing shift. And, of course, I had a lot of people that knew what they were doing that worked on days. Weisskopf: Back then, if it wasn’t top secret, if you were to come home and describe to somebody what your job was, or what the purpose of the building was, how would you have described it? Secrecy didn’t matter, what was it that the building was doing that you were there to do? Smith: We were there to machine graphite to a lot of different shapes and sizes to very precise dimensions. And we at that time knew nothing about what it was for, what we were doing. Weisskopf: Were you familiar with graphite at all before then? Smith: Well, yes, in a way. My background was mining geology, and of course we had a lot to do with the raw materials and stuff like that. Weisskopf: And did you know you were on a war effort? That must have been pretty obvious. Smith: Oh, yes. That was made very obvious. Everybody knew. Weisskopf: Have any clue what they were going to be using graphite for? Smith: No. Not a clue. Weisskopf: Did you know how much was going to be run through there, the quantities? Smith: No idea. At that point I had never seen a reactor, never seen the place it was going. Weisskopf: Okay. So they started you as the guy running the swing shift, you said? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: And what was that like the first few days that you did it? What was the routine? Smith: Learning for several weeks. I had a lot of here again, everybody had the spirit of cooperation. There was no jealousy, no anything as far as the fact that the others had been here the only thing I could figure out was the others have been here long enough to make several mistakes, and I hadn’t, and that was the reason I got the job. Of course, the fact that I was a shift supervisor in the arms plant, I don’t know when that was. But I do know that I had a lot of good, intelligent individuals working for me, the engineers. A lot of them who weren’t engineers but were, you know, within the limits of their background and knowledge, they were doing engineering work. There was just nothing but good cooperation on their part to help me learn my job. Weisskopf: What were some of the things that you were told that were really, really important about the graphite? Smith: Each piece of graphite has a particular place to go, so they have to each of them has to be accounted for, and we have to have a method, and they had already worked out this method. Apparently it was very much a success, because you can imagine what would happen if one of those pieces of graphite that was in the center of the pile was one that was supposed to have the receiver rod, the pipe, tube, was in there, and you shoved that in the blank, in order to keep that place cool, they had no idea whether they were going to be able to do the job or not, but certainly they would never have started up if they discovered that that would happen. So everything had to be in place. Weisskopf: Did they give you a list of sizes and pieces? Smith: Yes. They had drawings of everything. I can’t remember, but it was between two and three hundred different sizes and shapes of blocks. Weisskopf: And other than the sizes and shapes, what were the other things that they emphasized was critical about the job? Smith: Well, like I say, those that required holes drilled the length of the block, which was was it three and a half or four feet long? Weisskopf: Four feet, I think. Smith: Four? Yeah, four feet. Weisskopf: And you tempered the edges? Smith: Yes, all had to be tempered. Weisskopf: And you didn’t know why you were doing that, it was just part of the specification? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: Were there small pieces, too? Smith: Yes, there were small, just two or three inches long, some block. It was different sizes. Mostly they were they weren’t much shorter than a foot, as I remember, make everything come out even, I guess. And then there was, over those blocks, there was blocks that had instrumentation that went into the center of the controls, and they were very special, too. Weisskopf: And you were milling them down to the finished size? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: Till they were ready to be used? Smith: Right. They were…We had to stack them in very precise piles, all labeled, and they were to leave, to be loaded in a certain order, taken out. And one of the things that came up early on was the fact that we were we had practice runs with running the ones for 305, for the little reactor in 300 area. So we had a lot of practice in getting things done. Went out and laid that pile up. Weisskopf: You were doing that as well? Smith: Yes. It was yeah. They had already if I remember right, they had already started shipping it out for the 300 area. It wasn’t very long till they had. Weisskopf: Before they laid the graphite in the B Reactor, I know they talked about they laid up like 10 or 15 rows to make sure it all was exact, and then they’d take it out and put it into the pile. Were they doing that at the 101 Building? Smith: No. They didn’t do that on purpose out there, at 100-B. This is what I was going to tell you, that one of the sharp engineers that was there developed this method of measuring, so they didn’t have to they were going through before that calibrating everything, see? So in order this wouldn’t do in a mass production situation. So he had set up a machine and worked with that before it got up to speed and high production. He had this developed so he had sensors in three locations along the edge the length of the block. Three or four, depending on how long it was. And he could take this block and put it on a machine table, shoving it under those little lights on a screen I mean the sensors on a screen, it would position that when he shoved it under there. And that would tell us, if all the lights were green, it passed. If all the lights, or any one of them, was red, you had to pull it out and measure it by hand. Weisskopf: So instead of having to make a dozen different hand checks, you just shoved it in the box and it had Smith: Shoved it under there. It was done on a machine table, and you just shoved it in. And of course then you had to pull it out and turn one over, because you had to have two dimensions, plus the length. So there were sensors on the length, too. So it measured the length and the two sides with one push, and then you pulled it out and shoved it back in again, turned it over 90 degrees, and shoved it back in again. If it passed all dimensions, you would send it out. Well, what we weren’t sharp enough to foresee was the fact that if every if one went through just a thousandth on the high side, you multiply that by 14... And, so, (inaudible)*. Anyway, the majority of it was on the high side, but it was all well within specification. Weisskopf: Let me rephrase that. Did specifications say plus or minus so many thousandths Smith: Three-thousandths. Weisskopf: three thousandths of an inch, you expect them to average out. Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: Some less, some more. But you’re saying they were all heading towards the plus size. Smith: That’s right. So when we started to take them out, they rolled them out, take about 12 to lay them down in a pile that’s probably not the terminology that they used but anyway, that’s what we used. So by the time they worked up see, all the shielding block with the cooling water holes were already up to receive the aluminum what was that? The lining. Stainless steel. Weisskopf: The tubes? The fuel tubes were aluminum, you had 2,000 of them. Smith: Yeah. I wasn’t sure about that aluminum. I thought surely they’d be stainless, but they were aluminum. Weisskopf: Had to be aluminum. Otherwise the stainless would have shut down the reaction too much, I think. Smith: Is that a fact? Okay. All right, that’s why it was aluminum. All right. So when they shoved the aluminum tubes in, the 14th layer was the first one that had holes to receive the aluminum tubes, and they wouldn’t go in. Weisskopf: This was in the reactor itself? Smith: Yeah. It wouldn’t go past the shielding form. So the first thing somebody thought of, of course, or everybody realized that there was no control over so Weisskopf: Let me ask you again: The first 14 rows up, the first row of holes for the process tubes, none of the tubes would go in? Smith: No. Weisskopf: Okay. Smith: It was just that close. It was very close. It couldn’t have been if you had say if it was just a thousandth, it would be 14 thousandths off. They had to fit. They had to fit precisely. There couldn’t be air space or anything between the graphite and the aluminum tube. Weisskopf: And that’s when they discovered that the error had been plus, plus, plus? Smith: Yes. So we didn’t have to take it all out, but we had to take enough out and this is another thing, just keeping track of how they did a masterful job out there, and I don’t know how they did it, because I haven’t --- of keeping the of taking it out, keeping it in order, and sending certain layers I don’t remember how many they sent back, but it couldn’t have been over two or three and machined enough out to bring them down off of those, to distribute the error as much as possible, but it was down in a zone where there was no action at all, and so apparently a few thousandths off didn’t matter. Weisskopf: And if the pile was what was it? 36 feet tall, and those blocks were about 4 inches, so that’s 3 blocks per foot, it was over 100 blocks tall. And they had to come out at the top, so that last process tube would go all the way through without binding or anything else. Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: That’s amazing. Smith: And they worked out a system after that, after that for the other reactors of course, they had to account for it for the rest of these, because there was tubing that had to go up every so often. Weisskopf: Do you remember how you identified the blocks? When you were all finished with one, it met tolerance and you were done with it, and they stamped it, we saw them in the movie stamping it with an identifier, do you remember what those IDs were, letters or numbers were? Smith: No. When you saw this, was this done you couldn’t stop them once they were all in this they had to be stamped before they were put in. Weisskopf: Oh. It looked like they were doing it at the very end. But they did put an identifying mark on them, didn’t they, at the pile, when they were laying it up, they’d know which block went where? Smith: Normally it depends on position on the roof, or how they took it out. There was four well, I don’t remember… Weisskopf: You wrapped them in paper when you were done? Smith: No. Weisskopf: Just left them bare and stacked them? Smith: We stacked them, but we covered them. We covered them all. They were always kept covered, and nobody was allowed in there. And, of course, there was no smoking in there, no chewing tobacco, or anything like that. Weisskopf: Right. What kind of clothing were you wearing while you were inside the building working? Smith: Well, they all I wore my regular street clothes, but if I was out, went out into the graphite area, I put on a pair of coveralls. Weisskopf: It was separated from the rest of the building? Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Just sort of a clean room for its day? Smith: Somebody’s sending a fax. Weisskopf: So you normally just wore a suit and tie, or how dressed up were you? Smith: No, just casual clothes. See, it was too hot to do that. The only one I knew that wore a shirt was always the staff, he was the department manager, and he was the son of one of the DuPont engineers. One of the big shots. But he was sharp. He wasn’t there because of his it was because he did a good job. Weisskopf: How long do you think you were there milling, you know, working with the graphite? You started in December ‘43. Smith: Fourteen months. Weisskopf: Really? So you did all three reactors, then? Smith: Yes. I finished I was one of the last construction workers to leave. Because I wasn’t going to leave, and they kept me here as long as they could. And I was identifying equipment. All this equipment was needed elsewhere. Navy had first priority on it, and the Army had second, and DuPont had third. So we would get up and then there was other organizations lower than that. So you’d go out each morning I’d go into the office, receive a teletype from either Kansas City or some other plant, either someplace in mostly in Minnesota. I can’t remember where all the DuPont plants and they would tell me what they needed, describe it. And I’d go out searching the whole field for these. And I had tickets to put on there. Well, if it was somebody from the Navy or Army, they’d come along, they wanted to rip that ticket off. By the time I got a construction crew ready to go to load it on the freight car, why, it would be gone a lot of times. So I worked out of course, I being one of the ones that was there, the Navy and the Army personnel was a little arrogant about the things, and so they were very happy to accommodate me and let me know that they had ripped that off, so we’d load it on and take it. Told me that was legal. And I don’t know whether the Navy needed it worse than we did or not, but Weisskopf: So 14 months from December would be like February or March of ‘45? Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: All the reactors were up and running. Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: The whole plant was running at that point. Okay. And Smith: Well, I don’t think well, they’d have to be. Weisskopf: Well, B Reactor started in September ‘44, about nine months or ten months after you started, and Smith: It wasn’t very far behind. Weisskopf: No, a couple, few months. I think by March they were all up and running. Smith: I can’t verify that one way or the other. Weisskopf: I’d have to look it up. So that was the last part of your job at the 101 Building was decommissioning it, getting rid of the milling equipment and everything got distributed to other people at other places. Smith: Uh-huh. Weisskopf: And then where were you left after that was done? Smith: Well, on my rounds around the plant I became associated, not friends but associated with the maintenance superintendent of 100-F. And we were on a first-name basis and everything. I told him I was wound up here, and they were looking for a place to either get rid of me, send me into the Army, or I wanted a job in operations. And obviously they had planned on three more reactors and two more separations plants, and they had one of the two built. They had four planned, and they only ever finished and operated two of them. One is still a hole in the ground. As far as I know, it’s still out there. Weisskopf: C Plant, I think, in the East area. Smith: Yeah. Let’s see, the two were built in 200 west, but one was never started up. Weisskopf: That was U. Smith: U. It was finally converted to a waste processing plant. So they did the same for operations, they hired, shipped in a lot more people than they ever needed, so jobs weren’t that easy to get in operations. So he says I can’t remember who this manager, apparently he had some kind of they thought the other superintendents thought he was getting all the breaks. So when I they hired me, he sat me down, he was going to make some kind of a junior engineer or something, so I was glad to get anything. So I went down there, was interviewed, sent out to 200 west. I thought I was going out there, some kind of engineering job, and they said “No, you’re going to be an area mechanic.” So I was an area mechanic for about six months before I finally got a promotion. But that proved invaluable to me when I got back in the engineering department, having had that experience. Weisskopf: Dealing with the day-to-day Smith: I got a chance on hands-on with all the equipment, at least in the 200 areas. Weisskopf: As opposed to just working with blueprints and specifications and things like that. Smith: Yes. So I had served as a machinist apprentice until the depression come along, and me and everybody else, I went back to college. So it was really a good thing later on, because I was picked for certain jobs. Of course, when the engineering department and the maintenance department divided up into two different… why, the superintendent, who was then the superintendent of both, was going to be superintendent of maintenance, and he came and I was working in town then, in the Federal Building. It wasn’t the Federal Building then. He said he was going to send me out to 200 east, and so I went out. He didn’t tell me. He said “You’ll know why I did this later on.” Of course, three weeks later they announced the separation, and I was out in maintenance. So that was another good break, because I’d had enough practical experience. Here again, it was the spirit of cooperation, being put in charge of a maintenance crew, not having been a craftsman myself, but I’d had a good background. Well, I was, really, I had that experience, it worked out fine. [Tape changed] Smith: Through conjecture, they didn’t know either. I don’t think there were over 50 people on the plant, both AEC and or was it still the Army no, it was AEC then. Weisskopf: 1947 I think AEC started. Smith: Well, then, it was still under the Army, wasn’t it. Well, of course, a lot of the Army knew about it, high brass, I’m sure. But I would venture to say, then, there wasn’t over 100 that knew it until the bomb was dropped. Weisskopf: Did you know anything more after you’d been there for six months? Any feeling for what you were doing? Before the bomb was dropped, did you have any inkling of what was going on at the plant? Smith: No. No. We had a lot of as I say, I talked to enough engineers in the field, this field and that, and mostly, of course, they’d mostly be scientists, like physicists and that, but I had friends, but they didn’t know. Weisskopf: Did you know of radiation? Smith: Oh, yes. Weisskopf: You knew about that. Smith: We had to take all the precautions. Weisskopf: And they called it radiation? Smith: Yes. Every craftsman knew that. They had a whole of course, they still got them, the radiologists, what do they call them now? I can’t remember. Weisskopf: You’ve got your health physicists. Smith: Health physicists, yeah, it was the health physicists. Of course, they were very good craftsmen. Like I told you about that incident that the pipefitter that worked in my organization, an operation supervisor and an operator went in to prepare this cask for another load of waste, of cesium, of strontium I suppose, one or the other, I don’t know what it was. But, anyway, they went in and opened the valves, and the cask was supposed to be clean, at least drained and flushed. And he opened this drain, and some of this greenish stuff rolled out. And immediately the supervisor hollered “Get out!”. And he left, and the operator knew enough to get out. But the pipefitter, he decided to be a hero and put a stop to it. Weisskopf: Turn it off? Smith: Turn it off. Not turn it, put the plug back in. And, of course, that didn’t fit the way it did, and they yelled at him again and he finally left. Well, of course, he had gloves, rubber gloves and everything else, whatnot, and they washed him off as soon as they could. And everything of course, he was done, made all kinds of tests. The darned thing didn’t manifest itself until the scalp started coming up on the outside, and this probably was so the radiation, the damage was deep, but it came to the surface. So then I had to drive him to the University of Washington, medical. And then after that, why, we had to send him over once a month, until it healed up. Weisskopf: Was it strictly localized on his head? Smith: Yes. He must have taken internally quite a jolt, too, but apparently he didn’t, because actually I guess the radiation limits we were told were, I don’t know, a fraction of what there was any danger of damage. Weisskopf: What year do you think that was, give or take? Smith: Yes. It was in B Plant, and it was after B Plant had no, it was in T Plant, because it was when they were no, won’t say that. I guess it was B Plant. Because I had the pipefitters in both areas. I think it was the B Plant. And it would have to be 19... Let’s see, when did B Plant start? It would have to be about 1970. Give or take five years. Weisskopf: Okay. So let’s go back to 1945. You knew of radiation before the bomb was dropped, you knew that the plant had something to do with that, but no indication as to what was going on. So tell me what you thought when you did find out, when the bomb was dropped and the news came out. Did that make you look at Hanford in awe or in a new light? Smith: It wasn’t till later we found out that bomb was actually made at Oak Ridge. It was the uranium bomb. Weisskopf: Right. Smith: And the one a few days later was plutonium, I guess. So we found that out. Of course, we were claiming credit right away for a day or two till it got straightened out. Weisskopf: And did that kind of make your job seem much more interesting? Smith: Oh, yes. But the other thing is, is the atmosphere was here, this is a wartime project and the war is over now, are we all going to be out of a job? And there were all these homes here, and people with was paying 37 dollars and 60 cents rent. Should have saved a lot of money, but I don’t know if they did or not. And they were making good wages, and what we were going to do. This is going to be a time of readjustment, and all the industries geared up for war, and we’re and there was a so that was why I told you about this big red permanent building going up in the center of town, DuPont looked at it as a great morale builder, and I believe it was. People here are donating a lot of money. This is the first time the church ever built a building on leased land. Weisskopf: Which one was that? Where is that? Smith: That’s the one in the center of town, over on the big hill, overlooking when they started building that church that was the uptown district was a swamp. Weisskopf: Are you talking about the one on Jadwin? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: Jadwin and Symons, up in that area? Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Yeah, I live right near there. Smith: Oh, do you? Weisskopf: Yeah. Smith: See, that was just a swamp area down in there. Weisskopf: Oh, by the creek that runs through, maybe. Smith: Yeah. It was four feet of water there. It was just a swamp. They had to have four feet of landfill in there to build that up, to build that store. I was coming through there one day, back ally on a cold winter night, and one of the owners of six of those buildings was in he came in here before the war and started a plumbing business in Pasco, Braden Plumbing. And here he was in that Japanese or Chinese restaurant there, fixing the plumbing. I said “What in the world are you doing this for?” He’s probably a millionaire. He said “I like to keep my hand in the work. I don’t want to ever lose this ability to be a plumber.” And he was fixing that up. He just come in there, I guess, and they needed help. And I thought that was the oddest thing. He owned six of those buildings. Weisskopf: So, you heard about the bomb being dropped Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: the 6th of August. Another one was dropped on the 9th of August. The war was over the 14th, or something like that. Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: So literally a week after you learned what you were doing there, your job might have been done, theoretically. Smith: Yes. We were just wondering what we were going to do. We had a certain amount of debts, we had started to one very interesting thing, the car I had was a ‘39 Chevy coupe that I had before the war. Of course, you couldn’t buy one. So I drove that all the way until I could buy a new car. In 1949, ten years later, I sold it for $15 more than I paid for it in 1940. Weisskopf: Really. Sharp businessman. Smith: Yeah, sharp businessman. I kept it in good shape. Weisskopf: Were your kids already born before the war was over? Do you have children? Smith: No. Yeah, oh, yeah. There was only two. This is another interesting little thing. I had a secretary out at work, and she was a good Catholic, and she (inaudible)*, and I only had we had these two children, and the youngest one was five years old. And she said “How many children have you got?” I said “Two.” “Two!” So she didn’t say anything about it. I says, “Well, my wife had such hard labor the last time, she said if we had any more I was going to have to have them.” So years later she came to some kind of a bazaar of some kind that we had at our church, and she came in, and she was married then. And I was towing two little kids around, one in each arm. And she looked at them and she looked at me and says “Did you have a hard labor?” Get back on the subject, but I guess that’s one of the things that happened, though. Weisskopf: Yeah. I was just curious, that transition between wartime effort, you learn what the job is about, and then a week later the war is over. How much time was there before you felt like you were back in the loop of having a real job with DuPont? Smith: Well, DuPont didn’t want to stay here themselves, and they never did push this. But once GE came in here and said this is the industry of the future, they started talking about power reactors and peacetime use of this product was far greater. It’s unfortunate that it had its bad example with the production of the bomb. But the idea of peacetime reactors is to get as much mileage out of a few elements and create as little waste as possible. And, of course, the weapons program generated all the waste, all the high level stuff and whatnot. So it’s unfortunate that this is how atomic energy had its introduction. It was an invaluable method of generating electricity. It could be cheap, too. Weisskopf: What were you thinking way back, like, say, 1948, ‘49 and ‘50, about where we would be 50 years later with atomic energy? Smith: I guess I didn’t have that much... Weisskopf: I mean, did it seem to you also that it must be the power of the future? Smith: Yes. Oh, yes. I felt, well, we’ve got a career right here. I’d always thought I’d get back in the mining business. Even after I’d gone to work for DuPont, I’d gone to Denver to train how to make ammunition. And the superintendent of the tunnel that I worked on came there to buy equipment, and he looked me up, and he wanted me to go to South America. They had a mine there, in Chuckacumada and they were going to drill a tunnel way down low and bring the ore out without hoisting it way up and up the mountain. Be a lot cheaper. Of course, they can still get it out. I guess they drilled, put the tunnel in the mountain. So I said “Well, the minute I leave this job, I’ll be in the Army,” they’re not going to let me leave the country. I was married after Pearl Harbor. So I went and helped him buy some equipment, whatnot like that. And he knew a lot about mining and tunnel equipment, and he was sent over there to buy it by Anaconda. But, of course, we’re off the subject again. Weisskopf: That’s all right. Well, let’s change subjects, then, too. Working on this history of T Plant, you were in the separations area on and off. Do you have any remembrances, stories about the crane equipment in either the 221-T or E Plant? Smith: Yes. I told you about the rotating hook. Weisskopf: Yeah. What I didn’t know is when was that and where were you at the time. Smith: I was at REDOX. Weisskopf: That was REDOX? Okay. Smith: And that was the only, really, only separations plant. It was before PUREX was on line. And PUREX initially didn’t have the capability of dissolvers to take in the E metal. Weisskopf: To take what? Smith: E metal. Enriched. Weisskopf: Oh, right, which came along in the later years. Smith: So for a while, during the early part of the Cold War, the only weapons plant, separations plant that was running full blast was REDOX. And it was designed originally, initially, it was secret before, but it was originally designed for four tons. In order to keep up with the production, we were going to have to do 14 tons a day. So we had a bunch of good, sharp instruments, and with the help of I had a small engineering crew. With the help of them, we designed each panel was run separated by an operator. So instead of the big control rooms, like they have now and like they had in PUREX, it was just individual boards, just like the old bismuth phosphate plant. So these guys were sharp enough to redesign that and locate three control locations. And they made a lot of other improvements, a lot of the times with this rotating equipment. The coarse material was eating out the graphite bearings. So we went over I went back to Lawrence Pump and I saw one of these big sludge pumps, and there was an opening in the tank. Ordinarily we had the deep well turbines with the graphite. We tried glass bearings, which lasted longer. But we were changing out these $125,000 units every shutting down to do that, about every two weeks or less. Sometimes they’d last a week. We tried different bearing material. So I went back and got Lawrence Pump to build one along the designs that just a regular New York sludge pump that they used for their sewer, and made it small enough so it would go down through the big opening. We installed that, one pump, and made an extra one. We never they closed the plant down 18 months later, and we still had the original pump in there. It had some drawbacks, because we had to have so much liquid in the tank before it would start. Had a siphon tube down to the bottom of the tank, because it wasn’t long enough, and it wasn’t practical to redesign or build one, so we put this suction. And, of course, as long as it kept it running and everything going, kept the tank a certain level, there was no problem. But if it did happen to go below, they just had to add water and fill it up so it would prime itself. Weisskopf: Okay. Now, the first six months you spent in maintenance, early on? You said they sent you out to the 200 areas? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: What kind of work were you doing in there? Smith: In those days, there was no union, and there was no differentiation between pipefitter, and millwright and machinist. I worked in the machine shop for a while, and then they put me on the shift and I’d go out to the various buildings and worked on mechanical equipment mostly. Weisskopf: Did you ever go into the canyons? Smith: Oh, yes. Weisskopf: What was the typical job where you might be sent into one of the canyons? Smith: Well, when they first started the T Plant, they just got hot, a couple of them. I had a problem with a jumper, and they couldn’t get it to fit in up there, so they put a couple of us down in the cell. We had a very short time limit. It hadn’t gotten real hot yet. We went up and tried that jumper so we got it to fit in place. Weisskopf: What would they have done if it had been hot? What could they have done? Smith: They probably had to take the thing out and well, we couldn’t have gone down there. They’d probably take this out. In those days, we had later on, of course, we had a decontaminator, we had the capability of doing that, but we didn’t then. Wouldn’t even suggest it. They’d have sent it to the shop. We had superintendent later on, this is now. They’d have gone back to the shop, pipe shop, and got another one built. Weisskopf: Okay. And just replace the whole jumper? Smith: It was very interesting thing that might be interesting now. There was two different theories here. At Hanford, we built the jumpers very rigid. They had they didn’t bend very much. They had to be right, and they had a lot of stiff framework on them. And one of the big improvements over the bismuth phosphate plant was that they were a flat surface to surface, or the seal was, but the ones later on were oval, concave, so they could be tilted a little bit, and you could get away with that, see. Well, going back to Savannah River, of course I must have known in the back of my mind before this, but I got back there and found out they make them [jumpers] as flimsy as they can. They put one end down and then can bend the other one into place. Take the spare hook or something like that if it didn’t fit. They just didn’t depend on a good fit. They made it out of schedule 10 pipe instead of 40, and when they put them on there, why, they could draw themselves they didn’t have that oval head like we had, but they didn’t have to sit straight, or anything else, they got away with this. Weisskopf: The original design was a flat connection? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: And where was the oval used at Hanford? Smith: At REDOX. Weisskopf: REDOX, Okay. They improved the connection. Smith: Yes. They improved that here. Weisskopf: But at T Plant, the connections all had to fit precisely? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: When you laid it in there, it had to line up and then just Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: fit perfectly. Smith: Yeah. Weisskopf: How did you get down in the cell for that job when you Smith: Well, we had ladders then, put them off the top of the tank. But something went wrong and something got out, you see, and I don’t know how they even I wasn’t there when they corrected whatever was wrong, because we were told to scram out of there. Weisskopf: Were you dressed in whites, coveralls? Smith: Oh, yes. Coveralls. In fact, we had the plastic suit. Weisskopf: Were you impressed at the size of the place? Smith: Oh, I saw that I think the T Building had an extra length, they had an extra operation. Weisskopf: The laboratory. The semi works that they had. Smith: Oh, yeah. I think it was 900 feet long. Weisskopf: Just about. Almost. Its 965, something like that. Smith: Is it? Weisskopf: Yeah 865. Smith: And I couldn’t believe that. Plus the fact that the walls in places were 8-foot thick. Big concrete blocks on top of them. One interesting thing, on the crane, the REDOX crane developed this problem of going around, down the track skeewampus. There was no way it was so hot in those days, you only had 30 seconds to go up there and look. Something like that. Now, this was when I was maintenance manager with REDOX. And it was wearing the rail out and everything else. All kinds of problems. So Andy Eckert and I went up, and we got allowance to take I don’t know how many, a year’s supply of radiation, something like that. Went up there, and it so happened on those old-fashioned cranes, they had one big motor in the center, and they had a flange on either side that drove the wheels, both sides, the motor too, worked from both sides. That was right in the center. And Andy noticed down there a big nut laying on the got looking there, and that crane was being powered from one side, and the other all gores were either sheared off or laying around there. Those bolts. Nobody had thought of that for two or three weeks. Weisskopf: So it was always skewed as it went down the track? Smith: Yeah. Every once in a while we’d have to go down to the end and bang it against the end to straighten it out again. And they did that so much, once they broke the rail on one. Weisskopf: That’s funny. Did you ever work on the cranes at T Plant or B Plant? Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: What types of things would you be doing with those? Smith: Oh, actually, most of the things was electrical. But we had to go up and lubricate the thing. And then... well, let’s see... Weisskopf: Let me ask you this: There were two periscopes that the operator used. Smith: Yes. Weisskopf: Do you remember there being television, a little closed circuit television in the cab? Smith: No. There wasn’t anything like that that I know. The first television we got put in, and we put one on before we shut down at REDOX, but it never was satisfactory enough to see what you were doing. Weisskopf: At REDOX. So at T Plant and B Plant, you don’t remember TV being there at all? Smith: No. No, there wasn’t any. Weisskopf: Yeah. Is it possible they installed it and never used it? Smith: No. Well, yes, later on in T Plant it became the main decontamination of the Weisskopf: No, no, I mean in the beginning. Smith: No. Weisskopf: In the beginning, there wasn’t a little TV screen in the cab that they never used? Smith: No. It wouldn’t be in the cab anyway, it would have to be out in the Weisskopf: No, the screen itself. Smith: The screen. Excuse me, I’m sorry. Okay. Weisskopf: Okay. Well, I’ve heard it from plenty of people; it must be true. Did you ever talk to any of the crane operators? Smith: All the time. Weisskopf: Were they swaggering, like a fighter pilot? Were they cocky and proud of their job because they Smith: They were proud of their job, but they were very humble, too, because they had so much at stake. The whole plant depended on them. The whole they were the one key but it’s amazing, though, how we would often schedule shutdowns for the top crane operator to be on shift, at least when we installed the equipment. Dismantling it was no problem. But when we started installing it, why, we... Weisskopf: So you’d schedule it around his schedule, to make sure that the top guy was there. Smith: There were very few that weren’t good operators. But there were a few that we just didn’t have any confidence in. Weisskopf: How many hours would they spend on a shift inside the cab, working it? Would they be there the whole time? Smith: No, no. They came out for something to eat, to take lunch. But they put in four hours, probably. Weisskopf: Okay. Pretty tiring job? Smith: Oh, it is, when they’re putting jumpers on. But most of the time, of course, they can only do so much, they have to get instructions on the process. Each operating department had an engineer working for the production. He was the production engineer, and he knew the facility very well, and he had all the blueprints, and he worked with the crane operator, told him this is the next jumper to use. They got to the point where they were pretty good at it themselves, but they had a certain order that they had to go on, because some were overlapping the others. You had to avoid putting one that was on top, and then it would have to be removed to put the other one in. Weisskopf: Would they give them charts or something, or lists on how they were to go about? Smith: I think mostly they worked by the telephone. Weisskopf: Okay. Smith: I don’t know. I can’t answer that. Weisskopf: Did you ever hang out in the cab with them? Smith: Oh, yes. Weisskopf: What kind of stuff were you doing? What was your job? Smith: Well, they would show me when you look down on that, I don’t see how in the world they ever operated. Weisskopf: Looking through the periscope? Smith: Yeah. It took a certain see, the order of promotion was that they put heavy equipment operators I mean, crane operators that operated outside cranes. But I don’t know what the percentage of them was, but there was a certain percentage that just, by mutual agreement, they weren’t going to cut it. But they did have a lot of pride in the job, but as I say, most of them were very thankful there was a being that was helping them, the chances of everything fitting in place. The jumpers had to be all fit. A lot of times we would make new ones completely in getting them all. And, of course, if one didn’t get on, why, we had to go back to the shop and get another one built. We had to call up people at night, get a crew up there and put a jumper together sometimes. Weisskopf: There must have been some pretty extreme pressures to keep the thing running. Smith: Oh, in REDOX, I’m telling you. Weisskopf: Especially at REDOX? Smith: Especially REDOX, because PUREX wasn’t up. You know, it was quite a while, we had had all the cold runs to do and a lot of other things. I don’t remember the timing. For a while, for whatever reason, none of the dissolvers had the analysts where you could put a concrete cylinder down the center, through the cavity. And they didn’t have the capability of doing this as E metal in Richland, and I don’t know, I guess it’s the enriched uranium. Weisskopf: Which you didn’t have to worry about in the old days because they weren’t using any, right? Smith: That’s right. All the old dissolvers would just dump they dumped the whole thing in. Weisskopf: And the only time they worried about criticality was probably after it got out of the T Plant into the other buildings, maybe at the end of the cycles? Smith: Yeah. There was a place in 233 in REDOX where we were worried about criticality, and we didn’t trust valves or anything. Whenever we had to use that line, we went in and we took a flange, it had two flanges, and took a line right out and molded blanks. Weisskopf: Disconnected the pipe? Smith: Disconnected the pipe and put blanks on. And then during this operation, we went in, and during that time, at one time it about got away. And we had to I had an engineer by the name of John I don’t know whether I should say the name or not. Dugan was his last name. He went in to try and save the day, and he took a big overdose of radiation, and he was never allowed to work in radiation after that. Weisskopf: Took a lifetime dose? Smith: Yeah. So he went to grape farming out in Benton City after. He went there for a long time. He’s got a grape farm up there, so he took his full time. But he didn’t come to work for me till after he was working for the engineering department then, because after that he came to work in maintenance, in our organization. And then he quit. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 2 minutes, 27 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alex Smith Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Alex Smith conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F553a0d1052d72bf58becca961c019cbe.MP3 466fe150c3a60f5d0b8a7382a0973fdf https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F877068013eb9e8ffa6020981a16c9698.MP3 65a76b09f55860805c190166b369d541 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Baumgartner Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: Can you give me your name and… Baumgartner: My name is William Vincent Baumgartner. Weisskopf: And today’s date. Baumgartner: Today is what, April 11th, the year 2001. Weisskopf: I don’t care what direction we go, I am interested in maybe, just how about briefly what were you were doing before you came here? Baumgartner: Oh, I came straight out of school. Got my degree on June 11th and I signed on, on the 15th. Weisskopf: Did you come here specifically from your degree? Baumgartner: Yes. I had two job opportunities. One was DuPont back east. The other one was Hanford here, with GE here. I didn’t have enough money to get back east, so I took this one. Weisskopf: What was your degree in? Baumgartner: Chemistry. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Which you would expect. Weisskopf: __(unclear) been a lot of work here? Baumgartner: Right. When we came in, we were tech rads. There were 500 of us. Weisskopf: Every year there were 500? Baumgartner: No, because they were stocking chemists for REDOX. Weisskopf: And what year was that? Baumgartner: 1951. Weisskopf: Was that the fall or? Baumgartner: We came in June and REDOX went online, I think, in ’52 or ’53, and so they were getting us prepared. Think about it, all of these were Q-cleared people so it took several months in my case. It took from June until the end of August. At which time we then went to, I went to T Plant and I was in T Plant from August of ’51 until November of ’52. And at that time we had a lot of changes, a lot of new supervision. The supervisors were changing because B Plant was shutting down or shut down, and so we were picking up those supervisors plus all the new chemists that were wandering through. In the original, from 1945 until at that time, there was only one shift chemist and we had four shifts, you know A, B, C, D shifts, which means we were working seven days a week from the clock. The plant never shut down, it didn’t even shut down for holidays. Weisskopf: But you were working normal eight-hour days. Baumgartner: Normal eight-hour days five days a week, and see you’d work swing, days, and graveyard. Weisskopf: Yeah, and they rotated them rather quickly right? Baumgartner: Well, it would be like seven graveyards… Weisskopf: Seven weeks or seven days. Baumgartner: No seven days. Every 28-day was a cycle. Weisskopf: Yeah. I think they have changed that since then. Baumgartner: Well, it depends. They might be working 10-hour shifts. We don’t have anything now “operating” that needs to operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week. At that time no one wanted to shut the plants down. We were going into, at that time, the cold war and things were getting really sticky because we knew that the Russians had weapons and they were making lots of them. So we were just in the process of making more and better than anybody else. Weisskopf: So when you arrived, things were gearing up? Baumgartner: We were gearing up for REDOX. B Plant shut down. T Plant was going to shut down as soon as REDOX got going, because REDOX was built to handle not only all of the material that our reactors could produce but what Savannah River could produce; it was that big a plant. Weisskopf: Were they going to ship stuff out here? Baumgartner: They did. They actually did. Our material that we made here had what was called the lowest MWd material, megawatt days per ton that was a unit of measurement. Our plutonium was what we call 500 megawatt days per ton. Savannah River reactors were quite large and they couldn’t give us any material that had less than 1,000 megawatt days per ton, and so we had to end up blending to ours in order to get a weapon that… What do you know about plutonium? Weisskopf: More than the general layperson. Baumgartner: Okay, plutonium as it comes from the reactor, what you really want is plutonium 239 and you don’t want 240 and 241. The higher the MWd the more 240 and 241 is in the plutonium, which is not a weapon. Weisskopf: And it ends up in your finished product… Baumgartner: Right, and you can separate that out easily. You just can’t, not with what we’ve got. That’s plutonium and we use a chemical reaction to get the plutonium separated from everything. Weisskopf: Would a 1,000 megawatt day have more… Baumgartner: 240 and 241, and that’s not a good weapon material so we blended it with our 500 and basically ____ (unclear) 750 megawatt days per ton which was our weapons. And the material that we got from the reactors would sit out in the reactor, in the basins, or in 200 R Area basin for at least 60 days for cooling off. So the law of the short half-life materials were gone and then we would bring it into T Plant cask. 1,500 pounds of metal, dissolve that up, separate the plutonium out of that at T Plant using a bismuth phosphate coprecipitator in the front end of the canyon and then we would transfer it over to 224, and then they would use allantoin. Allantoin brings now more plutonium for less. In other words, the precipitation is such that there is more plutonium per pound on the precipity than there is with bismuth, but bismuth doesn’t bring down fission products in uranium, where as lanthanum would have a tendency to bring out some of these other things. To give you a little insight, at the time when we were running this we were literally using up all the bismuth that was being mined in America. Does that tell ya? So, in other words, we were using a lot of bismuth. Weisskopf: And throwing it out each batch? Baumgartner: That was all going into the waste tanks. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Every bit of it, that’s in the waste tanks. One of these days, we’ll mine that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You know cause it’s… Anyway, T Plant, then the canyon building had the bismuth extract from the dissolver, and the volume. The final volume of the plutonium was, I think, something on…. if you can get a hold of a C-Manual. Weisskopf: I’ve got it. Baumgartner: Have you? It is a very large book. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: That will tell you chemically everything you need to know. That was classified TS in 1950. Only a few people got a chance to read that, I was one of them. Weisskopf: When you came here did they sit you down with something like that, or? Baumgartner: Well, I was in a very interesting position. When I went to T Plant, the laboratory 222-T, my first assignment…Now we had three chemists instead of one, so my first assignment was to go to 271-T laboratory, which was a “cold” laboratory. In other words, we weren’t handling any of the reactor materials. This was cold solutions that we were using to make these strikes, you know, as we were going up the process. There were like six solutions that we had to make up for this process. Recognize the C-Manual was written from test tube chemistry to this 1,800 foot long canyon building, and so in the early days when they got to operating they didn’t hesitate to make two or three bismuth strikes to get all of the plutonium out, because they wanted the plutonium. But as time went on, making multi-strikes when a single strike should work is what they were going for and when I got there they were averaging three strikes to get all of the plutonium out of a batch. Weisskopf: Another word for strike is… Baumgartner: Is where you precipitate down with bismuth and you ended up having to use three times before you could get all of the plutonium out. Okay, then I went into 271-T Laboratory where we did the cold chemistry. Read the C-Manual, and it turns out that in the C-Manual, if you look at it very carefully the variance on the chemicals that you could use, when it said six normal it didn’t mean four and a half or five, it meant say like five point eight to six point two. Well, what was happening is that we weren’t quite as careful, our laboratory had gotten dirty over the years and so we were walking outside the limits. Even though we were saying it was six point zero, it really wasn’t for a lot of reasons. One is dirty tools, dirty laboratory, and the other is our standards weren’t good, weren’t as good as they could have been. I got in there and I got the dubious job of trying to figure out how we can get it so we can get down to one. And we did that, it took me about a month and we cleaned up all the chemical, all the glassware, went down and got a brand new set of calibrations that was really very fine, that had to meet the specifications. And then when that happened, we went down to a single strike and we were able to get the plutonium out. When that happened, operations then glommed onto me and says “We can’t take any more chances, this guy is going to do that all the time.” So I ended up making solutions for about three or four months. Weisskopf: You’re talking about major gallons of solutions ____ (unclear)? Baumgartner: Yes, yeah yeah approximately. Weisskopf: The cold chemicals that they were using. Baumgartner: Right, the cold chemicals that were used right. And they have to be made up to specification. Yeah, we made like 500 gallons at a crack, type of thing. Ferrous sulfate, we only made like 50 gallons and we used 50 gallons. That was not something that you could leave hanging around, which they did and then therefore the ferrous sulfate solution wasn’t as strong as it should have been, even though yesterday or the day before we measured it and it was like say, so much normality, and it turns out the next day if you leave it sit in the same ____(unclear) it is gonna be a lot less. That was part of the problem and we got that cleaned up, and when we did, then they decided oh golly, we’re now one strike per run, well let’s see if we can’t make a run, a real just see how much this plant could really have produced. And they never had in the earlier days, you know when they only had F, H, and D, in the very early days, the reactors. See and then the R came on and B Plant, you know and F, B, and C Plant, and then the two. When they came, you know as they got more and more, then these B and T Plant they didn’t have to be efficient because they had enough capability to process it all. However, when they were going to go to REDOX they just wanted to see what the plant could really do, and it turned out they could do a lot more than they had thought. Weisskopf: What was the turnaround time when you got there, generally, for when they dumped the fuel into the dissolver until it was ____(unclear) Baumgartner: I don’t know is that declassified yet? In other words, each run was equivalent to a half a piece. Weisskopf: When you say run you’re assuming 1,500… Baumgartner: Grams, 1,500 grams of plutonium. Weisskopf: From 1,500 tons. Baumgartner: From 1,500 pounds. Weisskopf: A ton and a half. Baumgartner: A ton and a half… Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …well about a ton. I don’t know about the halves, about a ton of metal. Depended on the… Weisskopf: Metric tons or English tons? Yeah…yeah, I’ll have to look this up. Baumgartner: You have to look in the, C-Manual will tell you. Weisskopf: They go back and forth even in there. Baumgartner: I thought the C-Manual will say 1,500 pounds. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: In a batch. Weisskopf: That sounds right to me. Baumgartner: And so it wasn’t quite a ton, it was about ¾ of a ton. Anyway, that’s, look at the C-Manual and it will tell you. You know, for the specific amount. Weisskopf: From the time that you put it in until the time it was heading out of the 200 Area, or let’s say out of… Baumgartner: No, out of the back end of T Plant before it went down to 231, 2345 building it would, when I first got there it would take about a day, three shifts. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: When we did our master run, it didn’t take a shift. Weisskopf: When you fine-tuned it and got it down to one precipity. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: So that’s like, we’ll call it eight hours that you could… Baumgartner: About 10 hours is what it was actually. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Boy that was a lot of stuff. So the old plants could have produced a lot, we wouldn’t have needed REDOX, but REDOX just had so much capability. Then REDOX had its problems and it wasn’t very long when we found out what its problem was because the hexone got nitrated. Weisskopf: No chemist had predicted that? Baumgartner: No they hadn’t, they didn’t think that trinitro hexone was going to do what TNT does, but it did. And so we had some pops in some of the vessels. And so when that happened, well then we went to PUREX. Weisskopf: When you were at T Plant, basically, they had fine-tuned the process over those years. Baumgartner: No, no. Weisskopf: Not to what you really could have done. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: Right. They were willing to take basically one run per day. Weisskopf: And that was taken care of… Baumgartner: That was taking care of everything needed, which they knew that wouldn’t be the future, but it was enough to satisfy the military needs. You know, when you had B and T, so that basically gave you a weapon a day. Weisskopf: So you were spending most of your time in a lab, and not a hot lab. Baumgartner: Yeah well, I lasted there two months up in the cold lab. Then they say well Bill you gotta come on down to the hot lab, we can’t let you stay up there forever. So what we did then is we moved the cold lab over to 222 T so I could do that hot work and the cold work. Weisskopf: Oh, they put them both together. Baumgartner: Yeah, well, we cleaned off one side and we put all the cold chemicals in there so they went and brought all the samples over to the T, you know 222 T, and then I at the same time got the chance then to do the hot stuff. And it turned out that the two things that I ended up doing, I hadn’t educated from, because everything is pipetting. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: Okay, and the final solution was based on five lambda, so you weren’t allowed to go very much over the mark and just exactly to the mark, and then you had to make double dilutions. So you were making some very interesting high-dilutions in order for the counter to count and you had to be within a fairly narrow… And we were having a hard time without reruns running the final solution, you know that went down to 231, just to get the right count for the accountability, because that was the first accountability. Weisskopf: How many samples would you do in one batch as it went through? That’s what you’re talking about now? Baumgartner: Yeah, one sample. Well, you had many samples from the batch because you would have the dissolver solution, and then you would have the first strike, and then you would have the first strike waste because you… Weisskopf: What would you test in the dissolver? I mean, wasn’t that just dissolvent and dissolve it and move it on and that’s it? Baumgartner: No, the dissolver solution was where we tried to get the first guess at how much plutonium was in the metal. Because see… Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: And so that when you got it at the back end of the process it had better match. Weisskopf: Back up one step farther, the people at the reactors had estimates of what should be in based on the number of hours in the reactor. Baumgartner: Yeah, but it depended on where in the reactor it was. Weisskopf: Right, how close was that? And when you guys did the first test in the dissolver that was your first chemical analysis ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: That’s the first. Weisskopf: Were they usually close to estimates? Did you argue with the reactor guys about what was in there? Baumgartner: All the time… Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: …all the time. Weisskopf: In what way? Baumgartner: Well, when you’d get 1,100 grams instead of 1,500 grams. Weisskopf: At the end… Baumgartner: Or when you’d get it in the dissolver, what happened to the other 400 grams? You know. Did we lose it? You see, then when the discrepancy was too large then you had to rerun everything. Gotta go back and get another sample of the dissolver solution and then see what the hell…and then if it matched what you took the…because remember now sampling is a real art. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: These guys had some, you know you’re only taking two drops and you know that has got to be representative of what’s in there, and… Weisskopf: Against how many gallons? Baumgartner: Like 500 gallons. So, right off of the bat you’ve got an interesting problem. At that time, not too much was statistics and known. We had arbitrary limits and they were as arbitrary as they thought we could meet ‘em based on the laboratory, you know, having a test tube type technology versus 500 gallons is a whole different world. And so we were having our sweats, so that when you fell out of the limits, and that should be in the C-Manual, those numbers… I know what they are but I am not sure if it’s always… If it’s in the C-Manual you can publish it real easy. I hate to give you information that I am not absolutely sure… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: …has been released. Weisskopf: Yeah, and to tell you the truth the specifics are less important then the generality. Baumgartner: Oh, I got you okay. Weisskopf: Always more better than…just to get a general idea what it was. Here is a couple of things from the Tech Manual. The, well here’s the dissolver flow sheet, sort of a check list, the log, the recipe. Baumgartner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eight buckets of 105 each at 3,800 gallons of sodium nitrate dissolver three to five hours at four and a half ____(unclear), okay. Heat dissolver to boiling and add 1,100 pounds of sodium hydroxide, digest for two hours. Okay they have released everything, alright good. Good, good, good, good. So, large quantities, these always are big big deals. So the original solution comes in, it’s you know like 5,100, you know ____ (unclear) 5,100 pounds, okay. That’s 5,300 gallons, 500 gallons basically. Okay, when it comes off the back end with plutonium it’s about 15 gallons. When it comes off the back end at 224 it’s about five gallons. When it comes off the back end at 231 it was a liter and a half, and when it comes off the back end at 2345 it’s a piece of metal, okay, so that’s, okay. 5,000 pounds is the general guess and the solutions are large. You know, you… Weisskopf: And how much was in a sample that came into the hot lab? Baumgartner: Two drops. Weisskopf: Two which? Baumgartner: Two drops. Weisskopf: And that was so radioactive they had to put it in a shield? Baumgartner: Yes, three, three inches. Weisskopf: How could two drops be so radioactive you have put it in a shield? To a layperson that doesn’t sound like much. Baumgartner: It was called a doorstop and in it was a bayonet point and in there was just two drops. Weisskopf: And you didn’t just pull out the test tubes? Baumgartner: Hell no. We had a tool that went into the doorstop, grabbed our 25 lambda sample. Weisskopf: What’s a lambda? Baumgartner: A lambda is a thousandth of a cc. Weisskopf: It was how many of those? Baumgartner: 25, that’s 0.025 cc’s. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: At two drops, I don’t even remember what two drops is anymore, but I can tell you right now it ain’t a hell of a lot because if you reran a doorstop three times you were out of solution. So, it’s about 100 lambda. Weisskopf: You could run it three times? Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: You could run it three times, then you had to take a new solution. We never went past two, but you could run up to three. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: If you couldn’t get them to match, if you couldn’t the, you know, the two of them to match because one operator would be one and another operator would then run the other run. So you had two guys running the doorstop and they had to match within a given value and if they did then you went on. That became God’s law about what the plutonium concentration was. Weisskopf: You were looking for plutonium in two drops out of 500 gallons? Baumgartner: Yes. Weisskopf: And, what you were looking for is the percentage of plutonium… Baumgartner: You wanted to come up with a number like say 1,500 grams of what’s in that tank. If it was outside of specifications then you didn’t grab that out of the cement, but there was a limit, 1,500 grams plus or minus a 100 grams for instance; just as a case in point. So that if you got 1,350 and your two guys got 1,350, then they had to go back and resample because it’s supposed to be between 1,400 and 1,600 grams okay? So now they resample. If the second sample now agreed with the first one, then that’s what became…then they says ah-ha, there is not 1,500 grams in there, and there’s whatever the number was. Weisskopf: How close would it have to be before you called an agreement? Baumgartner: What? Weisskopf: If the first guy came up with 1,500, how close could the second one be… Baumgartner: It had to be within 50. We were allowed to have, you know the two had to be within 50 of 1,500 grams. Weisskopf: Back it up one more step. You would then take your number…Let’s say you get an accurate number and you say ‘but the reactor guys are saying, you know, 1,800.’ Baumgartner: Alright, if it was supposed to be 1,800 and we say got 1,500 then we had to back and resample. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …because it could be the two drops we got wasn’t quite representative of the solution, so we got another one. If those two agreed within say 100, then we said that’s what the number is. However, if two of them did not agree within 100, you know within say 100 grams then we got a third sample and two out of three. Weisskopf: Now if yours are agreeing, but they are different from what the reactor guys estimated… Baumgartner: Then this is what we took. Weisskopf: You took your numbers and said we’ll talk about it later. Baumgartner: That’s the way we go. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And so that when got out to the back end of 271 T, the last solution out of there, then that had to check. In other words we couldn’t… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And if it did check fine, and if it didn’t check then we had to go back do the resampling, because see there you weren’t using a doorstop. Weisskopf: Hadn’t you already lost all the, after you do the percentage… Baumgartner: Oh…you leave them in the tanks. Weisskopf: You leave them in the tank until you’re all done and then you would send it to the waste. Baumgartner: Right. See that’s what I’m…you leave solutions, they sit there. These solutions, they just sat there until the run got accepted. When the run got accepted then you could just pump the stuff to the tank farms. Does that make any sense to you? Weisskopf: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: Okay, you’ve got everything here that you need. Weisskopf: It’s enough to get a good idea of how things ran. Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: What we’re looking for and the kind of… Baumgartner: And these percentages had to be right because they were now recalculated in terms of what the solution had to be that we are going to be adding. You know like six percent or whatever the percentage was and it wasn’t allowed to deviate very far. Weisskopf: You’re saying based on the amount of plutonium that was in the solution? Baumgartner: No, based on this, it is the amount of metal that you dissolve. Weisskopf: It’s what? Baumgartner: It was the amount of metal you dissolve. We always dissolved the same amount of metal. Weisskopf: It was the batch size, not however much plutonium? Baumgartner: Right, that’s what regulated the amount of chemicals you put in. Weisskopf: Would you need, you wouldn’t be using, you could’ve used less bismuth if there was less plutonium in the batch, theoretically? Baumgartner: Not really. Weisskopf: No? Baumgartner: Bismuth, well when we had it fine-tuned yeah. But, see we were expecting them to put slugs in there that gave us the 1,500 grams. We were expecting 1,800 or down to 11. We were expected 1,500 grams. And we expected them to blend those slugs. They knew where they were at and they knew where they had come from, so… Weisskopf: The batch should add up. Baumgartner: It should have added up and that kind of thing was, you know, we didn’t fuss much. That didn’t bother us a lot. Maybe one run out of 10 deviated from what we expected. The rest of the time these guys were pretty good. They knew that reactor pretty well and they pretty well knew that in this pile there was…especially after we got the computer working pretty well. That took some doing, but once they got the computer program that told them what they needed, when to push, and then…See they would push not the whole reactor, so they would just push it for the section. Weisskopf: The tubes of their choice. Baumgartner: Right, right. And that was based on what the computer said was there, based on what they saw in the profile of the number of neutrons per centimeter squared. When all that happened and that computer program was working, I was very fortunate I happened to know the guy that wrote the dang thing. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: And we were taking the class together because at the time, well programming was pretty much at the beginning stages, and the language you were using was your own, and the arithmetic was really…that’s where we were having all of problems. The arithmetic was such that getting five or six digits of precision was pretty hard. And so we were looking for better ways of getting the six or seven, eight digits of precision without taking a large amount of time on the computer. Because you remember now the computer in those days was at like 37 milliseconds per cycle. So you weren’t getting very many cycles per second, like you are now where we got 700 megahertz. Weisskopf: 37 milliseconds is 30 cycles per second, give or take. Baumgartner: No it’s 300 I think. Weisskopf: 300. Baumgartner: 300 yeah. And now there are 900 million. In my home, what I got is 333. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And that’s about three or four years old. So you get what I am trying to say. The computers were small. They were only like six kil, and…So we were looking for methods and the reactor kind of thing was really burning computer time. Weisskopf: Just calculating when the slugs were ready to push out… Baumgartner: Right, when they are ready to push out, so we were taking an inordinate large amount of time. So the guy worked on that problem and we took them out. Weisskopf: Do you remember what department he would have been in to be doing that… Baumgartner: He would have been in the 100 Area, but in operations. Weisskopf: With their own people. Baumgartner: Yeah it was his own, and there weren’t too many computer people at that time. You know there was, I think there was like 10 guys that I knew. Weisskopf: Any reactor operators or… Baumgartner: Well the reactor operators are just pushers of buttons and switches you know, but nuclear engineers…we were teaching the guys nuclear engineering here. I took classes on that. Weisskopf: And realizing too that this idea of estimating when the slugs are ready and then finding out that you were correct… Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: And they had to do it… Baumgartner: Well they had to make a whole bunch of experiments and all that kind stuff and it took awhile, it took awhile. Anyway, that’s the precursor to this. At the time, when like I say it was all trying to push metal through and so we had limits and if we deviated from the limits then we did a resampling, and then if the samples were close then we went ahead and continued, got the final one. They checked the front end within a certain limit. In other words, we figured at least 90%, 90%-95% recovery. Weisskopf: Recovery, and you were happy… Baumgartner: Well when it first got there we were happy with that one. When got done we were not happy until we got 99. So, cause then that leaves only a little bit of plutonium in the waste solutions. Weisskopf: Were there any problems you remember overcoming that made a noticeable difference that hey hadn’t seen before or hadn’t been able to correct, or hadn’t realized it was there? Baumgartner: I don’t know, there was an awful lot of chemical engineers in T Plant, I think each shift had like four. Weisskopf: They had been working on it for years. Baumgartner: Yeah, right from the beginning. And they were as dumbfounded as everybody else was because, not realizing some of these problems. It happened that my forte was analytical chemistry and I had thee years of that stuff. When I went to Seattle University, here let me give you my college. Freshman year was Yakima Valley College, so I took beginning chemistry. Sophomore year I went up to Seattle University. I then took analytical chemistry. In my Junior year I came back to Yakima Valley and I got a ____ (unclear), and Junior year I was back at Yakima Valley College, because it cost me my whole year’s of college money and I took organic. My senior year, ah ha now then, I ended up having to take P-chem organics since I had taken it in Yakima Valley. I had to take organic qual and since then I liked what I had done. I had to take advanced analytical chemistry and advanced organic for my senior year. I was taking like 10 hours every quarter chemistry classes. So I got 30 hours my senior year alone. So I had an extra year basically of chemistry just to get my degree. And so I ended up having the kind of thing that they wanted here. Somewhat, because one of solutions was semi-organic. Weisskopf: What kind of automated instruments, electronic instruments were you using back in college? Was it all test tubes and… Baumgartner: Well, most of the stuff that I did in college was in terms of gravimetric. Here it was volumetric. Volumetric was what we called elementary, it was more prone to error. And so that’s what I was getting at. Volumetric analysis is more prone to error, 50 lambda in 10 milliliters, and 25 lambda out of that, so you would have to make sure that everything is stirred, etc, etc, etc. So volumetric lends itself to some real interesting errors. Whereas gravimetric errors, we would have precipitated it, put it onto you know, pull it out on the filtered paper, weighed the filter paper before and after, would have been much tighter tolerance. Weisskopf: With two drops. Baumgartner: Yeah, because filter paper… Weisskopf: Well, that’s what…I’m sorry, but back at Berkley when they discovered plutonium those are the amounts they were working with, tiny, tiny, tiny amounts. Baumgartner: Yeah, they were with a fraction of a gram. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: See and that was the total amount and now your going sample that to see how much there was really there. Weisskopf: So the beauty of chemistry is you can do it on big levels or small levels, the equations are the same, it’s just that instrumentation and the beakers are different sizes. Baumgartner: Well, also too in gravimetric if you way say a five gram sample and you have down to the closest 10th of a milligram on possible with a beam balance. You can do that. So that gives me like three orders of magnitude, so a little bit of wait goes a long ways. Secondly, your adding some weight to the precipitate, by you know, putting some more, you know, atoms to the molecule and it was your precipitating so therefore your putting more weight to so its not less, it’s more. And so there, and you correct for it. But the point I’m getting at is you make sure that your gravimetric analysis will allow you at least 99%, so that if you say you can go to the closet 10th of a milligram. You would expect to have at least 10 grams difference in weight. And so in our case we would process something on the order of 50 milligrams, see and that would be 500. So that we should have been able to hit one percent easy with the gravimetric analysis. Whereas with volumetric analysis now, you’re going to titrate and you have to know…. When I first got there they gave me the calibrated solutions to two digits. Weisskopf: As opposed to… what would you have expected? Baumgartner: I would have expected four. With four I can do something with it. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I can’t do much precision analysis, because now all of a sudden the third digit is half, you know, so now I got I suppose a six normal and I’ve got five that’s almost a percent. And so I got nasty when I went down there at the standards. I says I’ve got to have a minimum of three digits, I’d prefer four. That was very hard for them to give me so they gave me basically about three and a half on the volumetric, but that made the difference. That’s why we ended up getting precisely what we were… It was the little things like this that people weren’t watching. Yeah, if it was really and truly you know six normal, you know, plus or minus 0.1 normal everything was fine, but what happens when it isn’t? You know, then yeah, yeah we ended up striking twice, three times, that kind of thing. Anyway, with me getting the advantage of working with these guys in the cold part, I also was allowed to drive the elevator, in other words the crane. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: I got to do that, moving the cell blocks. Weisskopf: Based on what? Baumgartner: Well they began to know me. Weisskopf: Oh…yeah okay. Baumgartner: So I says well why don’t I sit in with you to see what you’re doing. I says ‘how can I help if I don’t know what anybody is doing?’ You know, a chemist can do more than just chemistry if he can watch what people are doing, see what kind of system. In other words, are the cells really as the C-Manual says they are? You know, big hurky stainless steel tanks. In other words, how much volume is sitting between this tank and that thank you know. Pipes two inches in diameter is eight feet long, well there’s somebody in there. It’s the little things like this that they had overlooked that when I saw the equipment that I said ah that makes sense to me. And then we were dropping solutions down through sort of a rig, you know a valve, you know, so this could go into this one and this, oh we’ll let it go into that one. So it was all of those kinds of things. So there were solutions sitting there. Get what I’m trying to say? From the tank where we knew what it was until it ran out the spout down into wherever it was going. Well there was a volume in there. Okay, if that thing sits there for any length of time, well it’s not going to be the same. It’s just little things like this that, when I saw, you know, even though I read it in the manual, but it doesn’t give you these volumes. So, you couldn’t strike a tank with 10 gallons then you had 10 gallons in the pipe. Weisskopf: You wouldn’t be using the fresh solution… Baumgartner: Right. In other words, you ended up having problems and this was all part of the problem. So then I went to these volumes, you know, and how much was being added and we then played around a little bit and we strengthened a couple of them, went to 6.3 instead of 6.0 to make up for what was decaying in the pipery. And when we did that, see that’s how we ended up really fine-tuning one strike, we really could shove it through there. It was little things like that that hadn’t been considered from the chemistry in the laboratory to the big plant. Those are the kinds of things that we discovered on the job. The chemical engineers were looking at this thing in the massive. I was looking at it in terms of chemistry and how much the volumes were involved and what my normalities had to be and all you know. Weisskopf: Who would have been the person at T Plant who knew what the current settings were, like it wasn’t a railroad, it was a chemistry system with pipes, who would have the map that shows how everything is connected? Baumgartner: The maps were what we called on the pipe roll. In other words, here sits the tanks and then we’ve got a big wall, a 12-foot concrete wall, and then on the other side you have these boards like the six three board which was the six three Tank and he had… In other words, he could push valves I could validate which would then allow solution A to drop in B, C, D, E and they knew, you know, well I’m going to add this solution to valve C. So he’d open up valve C and the amount of volume that was up there was the specified volume, you know that was dropped down in there and they would let it five minutes and yell ‘run’ down in there and then they’d close the valve and that thing. These are boards and each section like six had a board, seven had a board, eight had a board, up to 13; each one had a board. And each had groups of valves for whatever they were going to do whether they were exit, import, you know the openings, exit, import, adding solutions and all that kind. And then you know, so there would be maybe 8-10 switches you know for them to open and close that they would do, and there would be an operator in front of each one of those, every shift. And then there would be two, what I call chemical engineers following and they had a log book when they did what and for how long, opened at such and such a time, closed at such and such a time. That was all part of the record. Weisskopf: …in there that are like that, the log pages where you would actually put in what had happened. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) supposed to do, here’s the time we start…. Baumgartner: Right, right and that all got put in there and the chemical engineer picked those up. He then scanned them. He went over them to find, you know, to make sure everything was copacetic against whatever rules. So they had a set of rules, we’ll say like five minutes, so they didn’t expect anything between four and a half to five and a half minutes so he expected a time to be like that. Sometimes then an operator would be out maybe smoking a cigarette, God only knows you know, because not everybody was conscious totally with time, you know we’re human beings. So that was the operations part. I knew all that because I had been down to see what they were all doing. This is how I recognized that there was heels. The same way with exporting. The pipe that went into the tank didn’t drain every drop. That sounds elementary, but now you have find out, you know, in other words, because when they built the tank it turns out that each tank, you know there might be three tanks identical, they would have different heels. Weisskopf: Describe what a heel is. Baumgartner: Heel is leftover solution. Now on the surface that doesn’t sound like much, but it turns out that suppose you dissolve up something, but not everything stays in the solution. Suppose you’ve got particulates leftover, it’s you know, it’s all… Especially when you’re making the precipitate you know and it’s falling down. Now when you, you know, pull that precipitate out and go to the next tank…did you get it all? See how much would have stayed in the heel? So those are the…Now the chemical engineers worried about that. Now how do you quantify that? Weisskopf: You can’t go in and look. Baumgartner: No, heck no. So we developed some sample analysis over in the lab with them. We worked together, hand in glove, and then we sat there. I got involved in a lot of that kind of thing just because of the analytical chemistry that I’d had. Not everybody that came out with a BS in chemistry had all the chemistry that I had. And that was, anyway that was fine with me. I enjoyed my time there and I knew the operating people. I was on C, A, and D shifts, so I got to meet different people. Like if you were on C-shift you only met those operators on C shift, but… Weisskopf: Oh you didn’t change with the same shift all the time? Baumgartner: You always stayed with the same shift generally. Weisskopf: So you were with the same operators? Baumgartner: Same operators all the time when you were on C shift. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: But I was very fortunate where I got bumped from C shift, to A shift, to D shift, so I got to meet not only C people, but I got to meet D and A people. And it makes a difference because you can pretty soon, like a technician, you can tell which ones are the good ones, that type of thing. And that made a difference for me. Anyway, I think I’ve answered all…. Weisskopf: How about, you mentioned you got to ride in the crane. Could you describe…how tedious was it. Describe what it must have been like for the crane operator. Baumgartner: Oh…it’s a single lens, no depth perception. So what they did is they would shine light so there would be shadows, you know because to pick up a block. For instance, it was a metal frame you know that came like that and he had to put a hook into there so he could lift the rod. Well with no depth perception, where in the hell is the hook? You know it might be over here…might be… Weisskopf: He could only look down, he couldn’t look from the side? Baumgartner: No, and only one eye. Only one single eye through a whole bunch of going down, because you know he couldn’t look straight down because we were on the side. Weisskopf: You’re right, right. Baumgartner: You know we were on the side. So you were going over a barrier looking down and you couldn’t and then the blocks were all numbered and that kind of stuff. Like he’d have six-three, A, B, C, you know that, A comes first and then you know, and so that you put the three blocks back onto the cell the same way each time, because they were not identical pieces. Weisskopf: Right. When you took the lens off and looked down, there might be a mass of equipment and pipes. What would the crane operator, how would he know which one to take off first? What was that called? His instructions, you know, did he have a sheet of things he was supposed to…. Baumgartner: The chemical engineer told him that maybe I want it, now each pipe had a little thing for him to put the hook on and we had the big hook for the blocks and then we had a little hook for when we wanted to do repair work. For instance, you want to take off a small piece of pipe. Okay he had to go, first of all he had an impact trench which he had to set down on that baby and get onto that nut, and then you undo it. There might be four on one end and four on the other end, pull that pipe out, put another one in its place. He had to do that all with one eye and no depth perception. So, it was all in how the guy wanted the light set so that there would be shadows so that he would know when the hook was….you know how do you know when the hook gets in there and fix it? Weisskopf: Did he have the lights on the crane that he would adjust? Baumgartner: No they were up to high. Weisskopf: So what lights were there? Baumgartner: When they opened a cell, they had like on a rack you know and they have lights shining down. You know it didn’t matter that that got irradiated. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: You know, so, for instance if there was a cell we would move all the blocks from six-three over to seven. You know, okay, so on this end on each end you could have lights or you‘d have two one side so you, whatever the guy specified, the crane operator. And they learned that from scratch. They had four of the best crane operators your ever gonna find, because doing that job with one eye is…. When I, it takes a lot more finesse than you’d think. Weisskopf: And patience. Baumgartner: And these guys are very quick. TAPE 1 SIDE B Baumgartner: …And then you’d have to pull the tank out. So, it was to me, the most skilled individual was a crane operator and they were very good. I can remember him taking all of the three blocks off a cell in less than 10 minutes. I can remember him taking off two pipes, you know bringing your impact wrench down, putting it onto the nuts four on each end, that’s eight bolts, and it was highly magnetized so that bolt stuck, you know to impact wrench, and he had them pulled over and somebody had to, you know you had to undo it. I don’t know how that impact wrench was built, but it allowed him to put the bolts in place. I think they put them into a little thing to where he could go back down and grab a hole. You know, it set down into a block you know with a hole where the bolt then fit down into the hole with a head on top and then he would drop it off and then he’d go and grab the next one. And when had all eight, he could see all eight now, ‘I got them all off’. It’s the little things you know that you don’t….he says well I gotta take off eight bolts, so he wanted to make sure he had them all off. And I can remember we took out a six-three tank one time, the dissolver solution tank and it took one day. There was like four pipes to take off, pull the tank out, put it onto the railroad car…you know six railroad cars away, because this is all over, the tank had sludge in the bottom, hotter than hell…and then that went to the burial ground and the new tank had been sitting there and he went and picked it up and put it down in there. And that had to be oriented so that it just sat only one way, so that all of these hangers just fit perfectly. Because you’re talking about hangers, you know pipes that go to the wall you know where the guy is opening and closing and all that type of thing and he did that in one day. Weisskopf: And there could be no workers anywhere near that… Baumgartner: Not in the canyon. Once you pulled off the cellblocks, now and up to 11, no one on the high end up to cell 11, from six to cell 11, I guess there was a cell five. But anyway, when those blocks were off no one was in the canyon, but I think if he had 12 and 13 you could have someone in the canyon because there wasn’t enough stuff up there anymore to make any difference. I don’t know…have you got pictures of that? Oh here we go. Okay, oh I never saw, yeah. There’s 20 cells I see, but I don’t ever… Weisskopf: Sections… Baumgartner: Yeah, but I never saw us ever go past 13, so I am assuming that that…Now the waste from 224 building and that was recycled. You know, take my word for that. Weisskopf: When you say recycled… Baumgartner: Ran through another run, was added to a solution and up here at about 10 and 11 tank they would add it back into there. It wouldn’t be very much. Weisskopf: Oh you mean the waste from… Baumgartner: The waste from 224. Weisskopf: From their finished process, whatever was left would have a tiny amount of plutonium. Baumgartner: Yeah, whatever it had in there they recycled it and ran it in even though we didn’t think, but we sure there was no plutonium or yeah… Okay, any other questions? Weisskopf: The width… Baumgartner: Oh here we go, that is a nice picture of it. Here you can see where the crane operator was. Weisskopf: Yep. Baumgartner: Yep, yep, yep. Pipe gallery and operator gallery, see this is where these guys were. And then the pipe gallery is where solutions were running. Oh God, it was a mess. Cause you know you make, the solutions were in 271 where the crane operator got into the cab. He would get into the cab in the front end here, he got into the cab in the front end and then you know, and that’s where we made up the solutions. Where we made up the solutions, at that, right where the crane was, where he got in. This is how I got to know the guy, cause the guy had to walk by the laboratory. And then the tank solutions that we were making up were right there and there was just a hallway to his crane. So, you know, and he couldn’t, I don’t remember… The longest I ever saw a guy in there was four hours. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: But most of the time, a guy couldn’t handle much more then about two hours and then he had to have about a 30-minute break, because that was just to…unless he could use both eyes. But, I don’t’ remember anybody ever using two eyes. Weisskopf: No. When there is a batch ready to go, anybody who was holding it up would be under a lot of pressure, whether it was the chemist or the crane operator who had a chore to do, how did that make your daily routine? Was it pretty pressured? Baumgartner: For me, no, we didn’t, for us in the laboratory that was not the case. The only time we ever held anybody up was if we ran out of a solution. Weisskopf: For the cold solution. Baumgartner: For the cold solution, and then they got pissed. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You’re right, and that only happened, not very often. You know that would be an error on the part of the chemical engineer. Weisskopf: He just didn’t order enough or… Baumgartner: He didn’t make the tank. In other words they ran too much solution through, you know. When we got into the final run that happened to us a couple of times where a guy made up 500 gallons and we used 500 gallons before I made up…because there were two tanks and each one, you know…you’ve got this one running and your making this one up and your trying to make it up as close to the using…of finishing off the using so that you didn’t make too many, because some of these are ____ (s/l oxcit) and reduction solutions and they age poorly, they lose their strength. Weisskopf: How many hours a day or… Baumgartner: Oh ferrous sulfate solution, probably in three or four days would lose 50%. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: That kind of problem. So you didn’t want to make up a ferrous sulfate solution except maybe just a few hours before you start using it was the best, then it was the closest. I worked out a table for them to, because they would change the amount of volume as it got older. I would give them the moment when it got…when we knew what it was and then as it aged, and then we’d say well okay it’s 6.3, and then two hours later it was 6.2 and that kind of thing. So that they would know how much more, maybe you would add an extra gallon or two or three of that solution just to make sure that it would work, you know. Weisskopf: What about the hot lab though, if they were under pressure to get their numbers done… Baumgartner: That was, the sooner the better because you couldn’t go from 6.3 to 7 or to 8 until you had the answer verified. So, when these operators came in and took those samples and they had to bring them over and then we got right on ‘em. In other words, if we screwed around more than and hour and half by the time they got the answer they were ticked. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because see that means that tank was sitting there, it couldn’t move. Weisskopf: So you always did test at the dissolver to get a first number? Baumgartner: Always. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And we did a test on every dang…seven, eight, nine, ten, hey… Weisskopf: And each of those took about an hour? Baumgartner: An hour and a half. Weisskopf: Oh, so that’s a good hunk of the batch time right there. Baumgartner: Well… Weisskopf: Because they were processing… Baumgartner: They were processing. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: See as soon as they got the 6.3 out then they could put another dissolver in there. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: So that they could have, in other words there might be three runs going through the canyon. Weisskopf: And if your numbers didn’t match then you say we have to do another test or take another sample, then you’re starting to hold things up. Baumgartner: Then is when, yeah right, right, right. Weisskopf: If you literally had to go get another sample, how long would it take? Baumgartner: Operators had to go back into the canyon, had to go back into these little doors, go into where the sample, there was a little sample room area where they would have the doorstop and they would do their little thing of agitating solution, etc, etc, etc, etc, and dropping in the two drops. You know, sucking it out about three times into that little drop…sucking it all and doing it about three times to get the right sample size. I watched that operation too. That was a, they weren’t stirring it enough to start with… Weisskopf: Now you said getting a sample. Didn’t some of the cells have a little inset box where they would get the samples at the cell? Baumgartner: No, no, they were all gotten over here. Weisskopf: In the operating gallery or where would…. Baumgartner: No, no, not in the operating, on the other side. On the other side of the canyon Building, on these little doors that you see right here, that allowed them to go into a little room and they could sample three cells. Each one allowed them to sample three cells. So they could, in other words, this one could sample these three cells, and then they overlapped except for the middle one, but they overlapped on one so that if you didn’t like the answer from that one you could go maybe in the next bay and sample it from the other sampler. You know, you had, the only one you couldn’t was the middle one. Weisskopf: And would they enter then from that side… Baumgartner: They would enter from this side and it was just a small room, just a small room. And see these pipes went into the tank, you know they dropped into the tank and it would be a little pipe you know and they’d stir around fresh solution and then… There was a whole… You didn’t take that out of the C-Manual, it tells you, they told them how to do that. And, well here, you’ve got a perfect picture. It’s complicated. See here, all you had to do to take off this one is go down and hit that thing with the impacter and straight down. Yep, here it is. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You can get a pretty good feel as to what it was doing. Weisskopf: And did they have a map or a chart that would say what’s connected to what? Baumgartner: Absolutely. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Absolutely. The engineer says you go in and you go to the fourth valve. So the guy had to go down and he had read one, two, three, go and pull that one off. Weisskopf: Would they ever hook it up to the wrong one… Baumgartner: Not easy. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because they were all made with different lengths… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And different lengths. You couldn’t put this particular hanger on any place but here. So you might get it on here and it wouldn’t fit. It wouldn’t fit. It wouldn’t fit properly. Weisskopf: And if they were replacing a jumper or needed a new one… Baumgartner: Well you had to have, remember you had to pull off two. You had to pull off two to get the jumper off. If you had the wrong jumper it wouldn’t fit… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: …on there. No that was nicely designed. Take my word. Weisskopf: Speaking of design, did you run into, you know DuPont designed the building before they even knew, understood completely how it going to be used. Did it work out well by the time you were there? Was the building… Baumgartner: Oh yeah… Weisskopf: …performing as… Baumgartner: Oh yeah, it was performing like the C-Manual says it should. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And as a matter of fact when we did the trail laying on the speed runs, I think top management was absolutely flabbergasted that that thing was capable of doing that kind of production. Never, they didn’t think it was possible. And that happened in ’52 just before they went down. I think they shut down in August of ’52. I am not sure when it down. You look it up some place, it’s around somewhere. Well, you’ve got everything here. You’ve got tank farms? Weisskopf: Yeah… Baumgartner: You’ve got the whole Two-West Area. Weisskopf: The Tech-Manual has tons of great, it is almost written for a layman in the sense that it is not full of acronyms and utterly technical terminology. Baumgartner: It was written by DuPont people who were chemists and chemical engineers and this is how they would write a manual for their own things. Weisskopf: It’s very readable. Baumgartner: Oh, it’s real readable. I mean if I could read it, it was readable. So, but you… Weisskopf: What was the last six months before they shut the plant down? They were just processing up to the last day or what kind of things were you doing? Baumgartner: We processed up to the last week, two weeks, and then we cleaned for two weeks. Weisskopf: What type, you know, how exactly… Baumgartner: Run solutions, dummies, didn’t… Weisskopf: Just to flush things out? Baumgartner: Yep, just flushed everything out. This was when we found out that a couple of the tanks had some heels. Because see these tanks should have gotten fairly clean, but they didn’t. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: They turned out to be pretty hot. Weisskopf: And was the problem that it was hot, or that you were… Baumgartner: It was high gamma. Higher gamma levels. See we thought that after we flushed, we could down to the six-three tank basically and literally go into the canyon building… Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: …and you know, get what I’m trying to say? Weisskopf: And walk around. Baumgartner: Walk around, because what the hell you cleaned it all up. So, but that didn’t really happen that way. Weisskopf: Did they end up just yanking it and burying it or? Baumgartner: I thought they left it in for a zillion years and then was pulled out when they decommissioned it. Weisskopf: Because they had to immediate use for the building right? Baumgartner: Well, but you didn’t, just because we didn’t operate with it didn’t mean we couldn’t. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And there is nothing that says that if PUREX or REDOX doesn’t blow up, well hey we didn’t know. Weisskopf: Right. But you wanted to keep the building operational. Baumgartner: It was in mothballs. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And B Plant went off of mothballs. Once we got T Plant running high speed then we didn’t need B Plant anymore. Because now it was doing more than the two plants were doing together. Because before the two plants were doing 30-56, so you know you say well we don’t need B Plant. So B Plant then went and we were starting to process the waste solution and taking out the strontium, and we were. See there are only two really bad actors in the waste solution which would mean that the waste tanks if you took those out after about 15-20 years would be nothing in them, and that is cobalt and strontium. If you pull those two babies out, then your tanks would decay to zero basically in 15 years and that was the goal behind some of this. Some of those tanks, they wanted them to be cold and they were. Though after they had gone though B Plant some of those old tanks really, truthfully, I mean you know you had to literally stuff the CP into it before you could even get a reading. So, it worked, it worked. And they were shipping solutions between West Area and B Plant, and from B Plant and back to West Area. There was a pipeline that runs from the tank farms from B Plant, to all the tank farms. Weisskopf: So they could move stuff… Baumgartner: Yeah they moved stuff, and one of the pipes had hot solution coming in and the other one was the cold solution going out. Let me see, there were three plants built originally to do the same thing; T, B, and U. U Plant never went online and the only thing we did with U Plant was we took and they separated out the uranium from the, you know from the waste solution. And that ran through U Plant and then our product there was yellow cake, in other words yellow powder, it was uranium oxide, and that was shipped wherever, back east probably or I think to Oak Ridge. Weisskopf: Did that lower the tank levels much? Baumgartner: I don’t think so. The only thing that would lower the tank levels basically would be to, would be for the evaporation. Getting rid of the liquid, because once you got rid of the uranium now you’ve got rid of 1,500, you know, you’ve got 500 gallons and you pull out almost most of the weight, what’s left it either bismuth or lanthanum, plus the fission product, plus the aluminum. The you know, the slug can. That was there. Weisskopf: Is that still there? Baumgartner: Yeah, it’s still there. Weisskopf: They never did retrieve those? Baumgartner: Never retrieved a dime of that. There were a lot of proposals put together in the late 50’s for mining the bismuth. Weisskopf: Really? Was it worth that much? Baumgartner: Well, it wasn’t worth enough at that time, but I don’t think it’s ever been re-visited. You know there has been so much anti-nuclear things that trying to recover anything people would be so damn scared that if there was a 10 counts per minute of fission products in the bismuth, why they would be upset. Weisskopf: So how about just giving a brief idea of what you did after left T Plant. Baumgartner: Oh, I went to 231 and 2345. Weisskopf: Yeah, more chemistry? Baumgartner: Yeah, for a year I did chemistry and then after I went into radiation protection. And since I had spent so much time in T, 231, 2345, I was brought back for the Health Physics people to 231, 2345 and all of the material that left that building I signed off on from 1954 to… Weisskopf: Signed off in what way? Baumgartner: Signed off I knew it went out, what the numbers were, that it wasn’t contaminated, etc, etc, etc. What containers it was put into when it left the building. Who took it? And as far as I know those were a terrible ____(unclear). That was GE ____(unclear). So you wouldn’t know, from those you could make some real quick assumptions as to what went on, but from 1954-1958 I was in 2345. That’s when we went from what we call the rubber glove line which was a hood operation with glove to a mechanical line where everything was fairly mechanicalized with little trains, you know. Where you didn’t touch the material as much because when I first got there in ’54, the operators in 2345 building were burning out, in other words they weren’t able to work a year. So we had to have operators, you know not necessarily working 2345 building but they had to be trained and then they were rotated so they could…some of the guys were burning out…in other words they were getting limit of radiation that they were allowed by say August. So there was five, six months when you had to bring in other guys and so it was economically feasible for use to figure out ways in which we could stop doing that. And it wasn’t until like ’58 before we really solved all the problems and were allowing the operators to run the whole year. So, we were able to cut down the, basically cut the exposure more than half so that they could operate the whole year. Also do remember 2345 Building was top secret and everybody got fussy about having so many people having top secret. Weisskopf: Oh you mean just to work there. Baumgartner: Yeah, just work there… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because that was fine to finish plant see, and so the people who were working there saw what the hell it was our products, you know. And you just, you know, operators they weren’t just a dime a dozen. Well it’s a lot training besides. I spent a lot of training time, both Health Physics people as well as operators, because you know a guy can’t just come in there and….it’s a foundry and foundry operations are notoriously famous for, you know, doing all kinds of dumb things you know. And plutonium was no exception. I mean if you could do it with lead, you could do it with plutonium you know and we did it. And so there was a foundry operation, it’s the best description I can give you. I won’t say any more than that, because I don’t know if it’s been declassified… Weisskopf: It would take a while for you find out. Baumgartner: Yeah, I’d have to go and take a look at the pictures and see what’s been declassified. Weisskopf: So… Baumgartner: I think the only thing that is not declassified is the actual production numbers. Weisskopf: They don’t like to talk about that. Baumgartner: And they don’t want you talking about that and they didn’t want you talking about too many details about how the line worked. There were lots of problems you know since you’ve got a foundry. There was crucibles in which you were ____ (unclear) and melting plutonium and it was running down into the shape, crucibles break. How do you stop that? For awhile there we were getting, see we never made our crucibles here, we got them and crucible-breaking problems were really severe. So, that had to be solved. That was not my problem. My problem was making sure the guys weren’t getting too much radiation. It was the only operational building, which wasn’t monitored by operation monitors. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: We used Radiological Science people. At least, in my tenure there, for the four years. Then after I left that, one of my major problems was that we knew that the radiation that the people were being exposed to wasn’t being properly monitored with the batch. Neutrons are very difficult to monitor and we were not doing too good. Weisskopf: A film badge doesn’t pick up neutrons. That’s not meant for neutrons. Baumgartner: It wasn’t meant for neutrons. So you would have had to have something separate and it wasn’t until, let’ see, we went to the new badge. A new film badge, oh I think in ’65 and I left. I went to US Testing, who then had the contract for processing the film badges. The bioassays and the environmental samples and we made further improvements. We did a lot of improving and the last function that I did before I retired, in 1989-1995, was put the new dosimeter in place which measures everything. Weisskopf: How do you measure neutrons? Baumgartner: Lithium six. Weisskopf: Oh, just film impregnated with it? Baumgartner: No, no, these are little squares, little crystals. Lithium six will store the neutron effect and when you heat it up, it gives it off as light and we measure that with a photomultiplier tube. Same way with the lithium seven, it only measures gamma. Lithium six measures gamma and neutrons. And what your doing is your, its only thermal neutrons that your measuring, but your measuring the fast neutrons that hit the body, get moderated, and come back. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because there ain’t no well in hell you’re going to measure fast neutrons, not with anything that I know. Counters you can do, but even then they use moderators, you know like BF-three tubes inside of paraffin casks; very difficult to measure fast neutrons. And secondly, responses for the BF-three tubes changed by a factor of 1,000 between fast and thermal so you have all of these funny little things going on. On film, to go from the old badge, you know the one that had the silver, to the one with four filters, I collected 8,000 data points to get the equations for that thing to work. And then when I did the new badge, I collected I think 12,000 data points to make sure that my responses and the equations that I’ve got in the system are correct. So, it wasn’t done just haphazardly, it was done with a lot of finesse. We had a lot of statistics. We tried to make the equations be within 95% accuracy. We felt, we wanted to move away from 50%. Weisskopf: You said you’d retired what year? Baumgartner: ’95. Weisskopf: And Hanford had stopped production in ’80… Baumgartner: By…. Weisskopf: 89 or? Baumgartner: Well, they started back up. There was a whole bunch of material at N Reactor produced and so it had been sitting there for years and years and years and so then they started PUREX back up and got rid of all that. Weisskopf: So what kind of things were you doing the last five years when there was no longer production? Baumgartner: 2345 Building didn’t go away. Weisskopf: Still, I think, you still had material to work with. Baumgartner: Do you know anything about a weapon? Weisskopf: Well, laypersons. Baumgartner: Alright what does a layperson thing about a nuclear bomb? An atomic bomb? When we make one does it stay an atomic bomb forever, it doesn’t decay, it doesn’t get you know…. It turns out if you make an atomic bomb today that in about seven years if you don’t do anything with it, it ain’t gonna work. Weisskopf: So are we talking the plutonium aspect of it? Or the high explosives and all the… Baumgartner: No, the high explosives. What happens, what is in plutonium that could possibly screw up an atom bomb? Weisskopf: Isotopes and oxidation. Baumgartner: Ahhh, not oxidation. Weisskopf: Unless they took care of that. Baumgartner: That’s not it, it’s the isotopes and 240 and 241 decay at a pretty quick rate and it goes to americium, which is a neutron absorbent, it’s a real suck-up device. And pretty soon you’ve got enough americium sitting there that the thing won’t go off. It’s absorbing the neutrons to where the neutron no longer, you don’t have a certain level of neutrons to start the reaction. Alright? Weisskopf: Rebuilding… Baumgartner: So you gotta take the darn thing apart, get rid of the americium. Weisskopf: It’s a chemical process. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You’ve gotta get rid of the americium and then you make it back into…Okay so there has to be a cycle so when Americans are going on to this non-nuclear and they are not reworking anything, pretty soon you don’t have a nuclear capability. So, nuclear rework has to be done. Weisskopf: Why wouldn’t it have been worthwhile to take the plutonium from Hanford and run it though what they were doing at Oak Ridge with uranium to strip out the isotopes they didn’t want? And leave pure… Baumgartner: Ahh, uranium 235 and 238 is three atoms difference. What’s plutonium in 239, 240… one. You’d have to have a diffusion plant that is about a thousand times bigger than what you’ve got. Weisskopf: And run it 10 times longer, yeah. Okay. Baumgartner: You know you’re not going to get the separation you think you are. However, there is something that’s much better. I think it’s classified. Weisskopf: But, those are problems that people thought about. Baumgartner: Oh hey, we thought about that right from the beginning. Weisskopf: Does 240 and 241 fission like 239, is it okay to be in there as far as… Baumgartner: Oh, it’s marvelous. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: It’s marvelous. Weisskopf: It’s the decay that’s the problem. Baumgartner: Yeah, it goes in and it decays over the americium and that’s the weird thing. It’s just cause 240, I think and 241 are beta emitters and so they go higher, they go up to americium, and americium is a real absorber. It just loves neutrons and so the next thing you know all the neutrons are being absorbed by the impurity. Let me see if I can tell you, Exxon did a research and the guy that did it was Charlie ____ (s/l Lindmeyer). He was my physics teacher and he worked with lasers. And I worked, when I took the class we solved the problem for ‘em. What kind of stability do you have to have when you’re trying to separate with a laser, 239 from 240? I won’t go any further than that. Weisskopf: Using a laser to do it… Baumgartner: Yes…laser right now can separate uranium 238 from 235… Weisskopf: By doing what? What effect would a laser have on an isotope, it’s just light. Do they absorb heat differently or something? Baumgartner: They vibrate differently. Weisskopf: Yeah? Okay. Alright. Baumgartner: They vibrate with a different frequency and when they vibrate with a different frequency, if you can make one vibrate in one direction and the other one not, then you can pull them babies out, it’s a gas laser. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: I’ll let you read up on that. Weisskopf: Yeah, interesting. Baumgartner: Because I knew what it took and like I said, you know early years of the computer were not very good because they only had like 6-8 digits of accuracy. Not the kind of thing that a laser needed, a laser needed much more accuracy. And there is that out there, and also too the stability of a system, you know? People talk about 0.01 %, I mean what the hell that’s only 99.9 when you need 10 digits of accuracy what the hell is 0.01%? See, its peanuts. So you had to work out some other details. Charlie did all that and we got him started when we were doing a class, Introduction to Mathematical Physics, I can tell you that much. Weisskopf: So it was here on site. Baumgartner: Yeah, that was class. I went to school at nights from 1959-1967. See, I was very short on physics and math. I’d only had up to differential equations, which is still a lot more because most of the guys who graduated with a BS in mathematics only had up to differential equations. But, that wasn’t nearly enough for the kind of things that they needed. The kind of accuracy and the early computers just didn’t have the capability either. Weisskopf: And since the process was evolving all the time, I’d guess that taking classes and learning was sort of almost… Baumgartner: It was a must. It was absolutely a must. Yeah, since I didn’t know any physics I had to learn physics. I had to learn Nuclear Engineering. I had to take Atomic Physics, Nuclear Physics that takes… Yeah, but most of it was math. I was taking statistics, variables, introduction mathematical physics. My physics class in college was freshmen physics, you know wedges and time planes…that didn’t do any good out here. Even a second year level of physics, you know, wouldn’t have been enough for the kind of things that we were doing. Atomic Physics in particular was… Weisskopf: But you started again in 50- Baumgartner: One. Weisskopf: ’51. This place had only been running for all of six-seven years. Baumgartner: Yeah and it was… Weisskopf: A brand new industry. Baumgartner: Oh yeah. We were just beginning. In the area of Health Physics in particular we were just beginning. How do you monitor what can go wrong? Hell, we were learning as we were working, you know there wasn’t… I mean now you have people scream when we have things happen today, but then after all we’ve got 40-50 years worth of experience. We don’t have to have that happen anymore. We wouldn’t expect it to happen, but then that was not the case then. Then was…you know, we hadn’t done very much in the first place so we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen you know like pipes breaking, you name it, glassware where there shouldn’t have been glassware, you know in the system, buckets when there shouldn’t have been buckets. We didn’t know anything about criticality. What’s the criticality of volume or mass for different solutions, different volumetrics, different… Weisskopf: Which might not be a straight line…. Baumgartner: That’s right…see like maybe anything that four inches in diameter no matter how full you fill it, it never is going to go critical, but you make a six inches and boy you only got get about two-three inches and it goes critical. Little things like that, that was not known. Those experiments were being run, out here we call ‘em mass criticality laboratory. I was responsible for all of the early work that that was going on, especially the solutions. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: ____ (Eduwine) Clayton was the guy that was leading that was leading that, but we were doing the monitoring on him. And we were trying to figure out how to monitor his neutrons and his radiation soil. Weisskopf: For health reasons… Baumgartner: Yeah, for saving him. I mean we didn’t want that guy getting hurt. And these guys didn’t know where they were going to have an explosion or not explosion, you know. They were working, yeah they blew up a lab. Weisskopf: That was the famous criticality. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: The old farmhouse, over in that area. Well you heard about a criticality down in Los Alamos? Weisskopf: Oh, no I hadn’t. Baumgartner: Where the guy was nudging two pieces together. Weisskopf: That was the earliest one… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: That was two metal pieces. We have had two criticality situations. One at 2345 Building where we had an operation failure and the solution dripped into a bucket, in a three-gallon bucket. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And not critically safe. Weisskopf: And the bucket was there just catch drips? Baumgartner: No, it shouldn’t have been there. Weisskopf: What were the drips going to go into otherwise? Baumgartner: It should have been a criticality safety container. Weisskopf: Oh, oh, oh, but they put a bucket there to catch it… Baumgartner: Yeah, and it shouldn’t have been, shouldn’t have been. Should have been a 4-inch diameter container instead of…just one of those oversights. Weisskopf: In a perfectly vivid illustration of what the deal is. Baumgartner: Your right, of what happens because we knew it could happen, and it did happen. Yeah, and it went critical several times over a period of many months and I spent swing shift out there, for weeks we never came home. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: Yeah, it happened in our building, it didn’t happen with my operation, you know, but we supply the monitoring people making sure that everything thing was still safe. You’ve got 2345 Building and my God, you’ve got to think about what the hell was out there and we couldn’t go in there and clean it up you know. I mean the line was left with all that stuff and no one knew whether, if you had something go critical over here would it set up ringing effects all over there and all that kind of stuff. Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: Because after all you’ve got material laying around, it might be in a critical safe configuration, but now all of a sudden what happens when a… Weisskopf: Neutrons come in… Baumgartner: Yeah, now you’ve got a big level of neutrons. There is one thing to have say 10 of the sixth neutrons, it’s a whole other thing to have 10 of the 18th…you know. I want that answer right now quick from some nuclear physicist, and that wasn’t that fast in coming. Weisskopf: Yeah, it’s a very complicated situation. Baumgartner: Yeah the guy had to, they had to sit down and work. It was, and they didn’t have an answer right away that’s why we didn’t do anything for quite awhile. We were scared to have anybody close to the building because of the…am I making any sense to you? Weisskopf: Oh yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: See that’s what I say, nowadays now that we know all of that, you know, you wouldn’t do that, so the probability… Weisskopf: In any industry you have to collect a certain amount of work experience to get to a certain level of expertise and your doing it in the beginning, but 20 years later when you look back you say my God how did get anything done back then? Baumgartner: Well, you wouldn’t of, but you didn’t have the safety rules and you know, so you just went in there and you went at it. All I can say is, we were very strong in monitoring. When we saw something that wasn’t quite what we thought was copacetic, we shut it down and discussed it with management and operations people. And if it didn’t suit us, kept it shut down until the top management made the decision. That happened several times. Weisskopf: Like you should of any time you “shut something down”…You were… Baumgartner: You got a lot of static. You know you got a lot of Operating Managers you know. I go straight up to the top management real quick like. Health Physics was one guy and here’s Operations over here and when your shutting those guys down, you know, the only guy that can really settle the argument has gotta put up with both them and so it went there really quick because time is money. Weisskopf: Yeah, or national defense. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: I mean that was the overriding premise… Baumgartner: That was the major premise at that time, I don’t think… Weisskopf: You pick up your headlines in the morning. Baumgartner: Right, well, in the days when we were operating we didn’t make a big ‘to do’ about the kinds of levels that they are making a big ‘to do’ now. A 1,000 count per minute level now is a big deal. We didn’t think it was a big deal until they got 10,000, but then when you’re mucking around in zillions, what’s 10,000? Weisskopf: Right… Baumgartner: See, but nothing going on is a whole different thing. Everything has been cleaned up. I can see where a 1,000 is meaningful because that is something you can see. Also too, on some of the areas you couldn’t see 1,000 counts. Weisskopf: They weren’t measuring that low? Baumgartner: Well you had too much background. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean you go into that canyon building. There isn’t hardly any place that you could get that wasn’t reading 500 counts per minute period. Especially when you opened the cell blocks, six-three cell blocks. That whole area you had to set the five-folds for 500 basically. So it was, in other words you always wanted to make sure you got the cell blocks back on during shift change. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because when people are going out and in. Weisskopf: Out and in of the canyon. Baumgartner: Canyon, well where their shift change. So that when you go out of the canyon you have to go through the five-fold and when you come in you go through the five-fold. I make sure you’re clean to come in and I make sure you’re clean going out. So, 99.9% of the time the cell blocks were on top of the cells at shift change, because it wasn’t true because you know…I hate to say it but there was megarads coming out of a cell you know, and that is coming off of hitting that ceiling. Weisskopf: As a layperson, that’s what I still don’t have a feeling for. If somebody could show me what the canyon looked like when you took a lid off using light instead of big numbers and…. Baumgartner: Alright…shoot a beam up 20 feet and what’s it going to do when it hits that tall? Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: It’s going to scatter. Weisskopf: But if I think of a flashlight it’s like so what, but you’re talking about a big streak like a light they’d use in front of a used-car lot at night…. Baumgartner: Oh…go that by about a hundred thousand. Weisskopf: Yeah, and that’s what I can’t visualize. Baumgartner: Okay a lifetime dose per year was three rem. Suppose I’ve got 1,000 megarads, how long would it take me to get three rads? Not very damn long. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because everything was measured in rads per hour. Weisskopf: And the dissolver full of… Baumgartner: Dissolver solution… Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) uranium. Baumgartner: Read in megarads. To give you an example, a doorstop, two drops with a CP off scale, that’s five rads. TP 20 rads. Weisskopf: Okay how long could you be near that to pick up your three rads then? Baumgartner: Ahh, but I was only allowed to pick up 0.05. Weisskopf: Per day or? Baumgartner: Per week. Weisskopf: Per week. So how long does that take? Baumgartner: Well divide, take 0.05 you know rads total and then say your going to now you’ve got. I need a piece of paper and pencil. Suppose you’ve got one rad… Weisskopf: You want these papers now? Baumgartner: Okay. One rad per hour… Weisskopf: Okay it’s per hour? Baumgartner: Right, it’s always per hour. It’s a rate, it’s always a rate. And now your going to receive, your going to have, your going to receive, your going to measure that by time, T x 1 RO per hour is equal 0.05, because see these cancel. So what does, say take 1 underneath 0.05, so 1 one time is equal to 0.05 over 1R, which is what 20? 1/20. 1/20. 1/20 of an hour. Weisskopf: Three minutes. Baumgartner: Yes. Weisskopf: From two drops. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Wow. So if you screwed around in the lab you might have to leave work for the rest of the week if you were… Baumgartner: That’s right, that’s right. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And it might only take you three minutes to get it. They were really pissed off at you if you worked three minutes a week. Weisskopf: Right, right. Baumgartner: Am I making any sense to you? Weisskopf: So if you were in the canyon, when they ____ (unclear) opened far into the canyon, down ____ (unclear) and they took the lid off of the dissolver cell, you would be getting a big dose. Baumgartner: Yeah, about five rem per hour, probably you could be down in there maybe about 30 seconds and then you’d have enough for the week. We allowed people to get a maximum of 50 millirem per day, 250 millirem per week. But if you got 250 millirem per week, you’re only allowed three rem so that would be 12 weeks worth of work. So we didn’t let anybody, we didn’t try to let anybody get 250 millirem a week. So we were trying to keep them down at 50, because 50 x 52 is 2.5, that’s 2.6, that’s as far as we wanted them to go. So we were kind of, if he got 50 then you know, if he got 30 minutes, he had 39.5 hours a week that he couldn’t do anything. That was not very efficient. Weisskopf: No. Two things I always like to ask. If the whole process in the canyons wasn’t radioactive, it was just chemical. How big of a plant would it have been? You want to process the same amount of material…. Baumgartner: Not bigger than my house. Weisskopf: Okay. And workers could go around and tune it up and look at gauges, take samples, all the chemistry would have been the same, but forget…it would have been a very straight forward chemical. Baumgartner: Oh God, all that pipery that you see, that would have all disappeared because you’d have gone in there and poured ____ (s/l EL) solutions with the bucket and…it would looked more like a laboratory. You know, what’s 500 gallons…at that end its 500 gallons and at that is 50, you know… Weisskopf: Yeah. The whole, the massive size of that building, all it said was this stuff is radioactive… Baumgartner: Yeah right… Weisskopf: And ____ (unclear). Baumgartner: Now, had they built the building a little thinner, you could have had nothing but super problems. Weisskopf: Nothing but what? Baumgartner: Super problems. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Suppose they had…do you know anything about a half-value layer? Weisskopf: A half… Baumgartner: A half-value layer… Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: A half-value layer is a thickness of material which will, and you put a source on this side will…If I say I’m at three feet and I get a reading of one, now I put a certain amount of material in between the source, you know, such that it now reduces it to 0.5…okay that’s a half-value layer. Weisskopf: Okay, right. Baumgartner: Okay, if I put two half-value layers on there I get .25. Weisskopf: You don’t get zero. Baumgartner: No, no, no, I get a .25. So three half-value layers, okay so I got megarads and I gotta have it down to less than a millirad. So you’re talking about 10 to the ninth. Well how many half-value layers do you have to have to have 10 to the ninth? Okay, if you miss it by very many half-value layer, and you don’t have to miss it by much. Like for instance if it was one millirad now per hour and it couldn’t be that high because you could only work 40 hours a week, you’d have 40, we’d have burned out. So they were guesstimating what it would take and they put 15 feet. Had they put say 12 feet, we would have had three, we would have had to put up lead walls, etc, etc, etc, on the inside. Weisskopf: And nobody ever had to do that… Baumgartner: Nobody, no one, they hadn’t done that before. They hadn’t done that before and so was 15 feet okay? So, what little we knew about absorption, those guys did a good job. Weisskopf: How could they estimate what a full-blown one and a half 1,500 pounds of uranium, they guessed at what the radiation would be, you know educated guesses. Baumgartner: Yeah and then put a factor of 10 safety and that’s about what they did. And thank God they did, because even at that we were getting radiation at the pipe gallery and at the operating levels. Weisskopf: If you went to the wall… Baumgartner: No, where they were operating, where they were moving the dials. Weisskopf: They were getting… Baumgartner: They were getting radiation doses. Weisskopf: Coming through. Baumgartner: Yes, yes. Weisskopf: They were above it too. Baumgartner: Yeah well… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: See and that’s…you know and that’s going through the shielding…just… Weisskopf: Amazing. Baumgartner: To me, it’s those little things that really lead you believe it was, God it was magnificent. In other words, DuPont did a great job. [PART 2] Baumgartner: …was given the instructions about the reactor and Fermi and those guys says well a 30-foot cube, you know 30 feet wide, deep, and high will be big enough. So they gave that to Greenwalt. He went back and they built the reactors. No one ever, they had some ____ (s/l as bills) that nobody ever looked at. So then when B Reactor went up for the first time they got it loaded and it went up. It went up. Got up a little ways and all of a sudden it started going down. So, Fermi was there and they says ‘Well what’s the scoop here, the reactors doing down. No matter what we do pulling out the rods it don’t make a damn bit of difference. It’s still coming down. What’s in there? What going…you know. Hey, yo-yo.’ And we don’t know how long, you know, it took like days for it to get there and going and they back up again. So they had these little spike short…So Fermi does his calculation and ‘Ahh, I know what it is, xenon’. Xenon is getting generated in these factors, absorbing neutrons. So he does a slide rule calculation, two digits of accuracy. He says “Oh damn.” He says “You know if we’d have that reactor at 32 feet x 32 feet x 32 feet, we could, it would work.” So Greenwalt says “But it is 32 feet x 32 feet.” They just loaded it 30 x 30, you know they put dummies in so that the original load was just 30 x 30 x 30. So what they did then is they took the tubes out, put two more feet, you know, of slugs, put it at 32 feet, it went up and stayed up. All because Greenwalt says, if 30 feet is okay, 32 feet is better. Weisskopf: What engineers need to think about. Baumgartner: Right and that’s what he did. He thought we’d get a little bit of extra capacity just…you know…and it worked. But that’s how close that got. Had they built it originally, they’d have had B and F, and D, would have never made it. Those reactors would have been too small, and as it was why they went to 1,500 megawatts and (bomb noise). Weisskopf: But what do you think in terms of leaving something for prosperity? Both T Plant and B Reactor are being looked at as being of historic significance. How can we show them, keep them, what are we gonna do? What would you like people, your shaking your head, but in what way are shaking your head? Baumgartner: They are too radioactive yet. Weisskopf: What is? Baumgartner: The building. The canyon. You still wouldn’t let anybody in there and to let someone in with a crane, you, the limited capacity of looking, it’s so limited that I don’t… Weisskopf: It’s, yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: I mean, one half hour…that’s not my idea of…16 a day. You know that’s not my idea of… Weisskopf: Perhaps a small model of it that would tell as much as the building itself. Baumgartner: And they have that… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: We have that. It’s not too small it’s about that big. Weisskopf: Yeah. You know where that might be today? I haven’t seen it. Baumgartner: Go to the science center… Weisskopf: Oh is… Baumgartner: In the Federal Building. It’s in their warehouse someplace. Weisskopf: They were the ones who had possession of it… Baumgartner: They had possession of it. Weisskopf: Okay. What about B Reactor as far as the story you’d want people…What kind of things would you want people to walk away with? When they come to Hanford to learn what things were… Baumgartner: I think the idea of complexity that it was not a simple machine. I think people think this thing was very, very simple. It was not very simple. It took a hell of a lot of know-how. These reactor operators had to learn a hell of a lot of stuff so they could operate. There was a lot of on-hands work in the original days, because remember there was no computers in those days. And there was no, the inner ties to the monitoring system was all manual. The guys were looking at gauges. At that time we didn’t know if the neutron detectors were really correct or not. They weren’t either, most of the time. So these guys were, they were watching temperature gauges on each pipe, a whole slug of things, all manual. Every shift, twice a shift they would go all through the 25 innertubes and record the temperature on the gauges, all that kind of stuff. And that was collected by those reactor engineers, trying to figure out what to do, such things like splines and all that kind of stuff. But that didn’t occur until after the computer came out and we integrated all the stuff so that, you know. Also too, since it was so slow and it was all manual, they ended up having to have what’s called a third safety system. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: You know, where it was going and we had the balls. I was there when we put the balls in. Weisskopf: Yeah. What were you doing there? Baumgartner: I was radiation protection. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And those went in in 1953. Weisskopf: You’re talking about when they physically put the system in, replace the liquid tanks with the ball bearings. Baumgartner: Yeah, well what happened with the liquid…the pipes lot the liquid run, you know, and the graphite has got little holes you know so that liquid got in there and just shut the damn reactor down just about. You’d have a cold spot right in the middle of anyplace. So what they did is they then pulled all that out and they had these little balls about the size of marbles, these boron silicate balls, and they would have them in hoppers and they would just drop. And they didn’t have pipes inside the reactor, they just had a hole. Well, when dropped the first batch of, when you know testing it, we’d say we put 6,000 balls in and God we only got 5,600 out. There were 400 balls in there… “ahhhhh.” Weisskopf: Each one of which produces the output of… Baumgartner: Yeah, just like the liquid did. And oh God, so we had to develop a method for sucking them 400 balls out. Weisskopf: Well how did you get them out the first time? You sucked them out then too… Baumgartner: We sucked them out with a hose, like a vacuum cleaner. Weisskopf: It didn’t get them all… Baumgartner: No, no we, so we ended up…they didn’t want to put a pipe in there, but by that time the old reactors had such large holes that the marble could go into the crack, you know between the pieces. I mean when they were machined they were really flush, but by the time they had operated until 1953, which from 1944 to 1953, you know that’s nine years, quite a bit of the graphite had…you know what do they call it…it had come out. Weisskopf: Grown is the word that…. Baumgartner: Well… Weisskopf: …growth going on… Baumgartner: Well no, that’s not what happened at first. What happened at first is that the graphite was hot and so therefore it like, it bled off. So we were getting holes. And then they finally figured out how to stop that. But when they did, all of a sudden the graphite grew, see, but the first problem was the graphite shrank. You know we were dissolving the graphite because remember the reactor is hot, I mean “thermally hot.” You know, after all we’re heating up water and almost all the moderation is being in the graphite not in the water or on the slug, we were cooling the slugs… Weisskopf: Moderation produces heat… Baumgartner: Right and so that had to be fused out through the pipe, you know the aluminum pipe, and on into the water. So the graphite was, I don’t remember exactly what the temperature was, but I think they were talking about 600-700 degrees Fahrenheit, which enough to start vaporizing some of the you know if you had a particular atmosphere and it was…and that’s what had generated these holes. You know these splits, cracks, and so when they you know you 400 marbles. It’s not very many when you’ve got 6,000, but it’s a lot when you’re trying to get the reactor back up. Weisskopf: Plus knowing every time you dump it, you might end up with yet… Baumgartner: Yeah, getting more and more and more in there. Weisskopf: Question, you could only suck water up 30 some feet…because if air pressure only allows it to go that high… Baumgartner: Well that’s when atmosphere, yeah… Weisskopf: How do you suck up ball bearings from the bottom of the reactor? Wasn’t it farther than that…its 30…feet? Baumgartner: Well, yeah, but see you’re using not water. You’re using a high-degree of air. See, you put the tube down and you squirt the air so you loosen you know, and then you suck the, you know they drop down the ball and (sucking noise) you’ve seen them suck balls up. Weisskopf: But you can’t suck a ball up… Baumgartner: With a vacuum you can. Weisskopf: …water… Baumgartner: Huh? Well, a vacuum. Weisskopf: Oh, Yes. Baumgartner: You’re not using a vacuum, we’re pushing air up. You’re pushing up with air. Weisskopf: With water that doesn’t work… Baumgartner: Yeah, well it would too because water has some force, but air is what we used. Weisskopf: Okay… Baumgartner: You wouldn’t want to use water because you’d now get water going in there. Weisskopf: Right, I’m thinking of…if you have a flat column of water you can only raise it 32 feet. Baumgartner: That’s no question, not arguing. Weisskopf: …air up through it your going to be sucking water… Baumgartner: Right, you’re really…see you’re pushing air in the first place. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And that was all sealed so you could put like 600 pounds of pressure… Weisskopf: Wow, okay. Baumgartner: See… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: In other words it’s a whole different…what you were thinking. I know what you were thinking is all…you know. No that’s not…you’ve got to think about in terms of…no they put pressure on that baby and they just blew air… Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: Yes, right. And that well…that just sucked them right out. Weisskopf: And did you end up with 6,000 or? Baumgartner: Well, no we ended up with about, all total I think that method left about 16 left. Weisskopf: 16 balls? Baumgartner: Yeah and then we just burned them up. You know, they’ve only got so much capacity and so that was burned up in a hurry. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: So, no big, it was no big problem. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. So at any rate if there is a B Reactor Museum someday… Baumgartner: I’d love to see that. I love what they’ve got, because they’ve got enough parts there to show you the complication of the front end and the back end, you know you can see all of that. The pipery…ahhh….pig tails… Weisskopf: Yeah… Baumgartner: Gauges, control room. Recognizing it’s not a little itty-bitty computer, this is bank after bank after bank of non-computerized equipment, all analog. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: To me, that’s…I think people should see that, because our kids are growing up without an analog in their mind. Weisskopf: Not even watches. Baumgartner: No, digitally and all. So consequently, I think this is a piece of history that isn’t that old. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And they would think that it’s extremely old. You know, get what I’m trying to say. I couldn’t be more for it. Weisskopf: Good. Baumgartner: I’m with it. It’s just I’ve been helped for the central reason…reactor wasn’t my big bag. I mean, I was in the 100 Areas for two years, but from 1953 and is you know, from February of 1953 to ’54, and we did the basin work. I was involved in the basin, water runs through the reactor and then runs through a basin and cools down thermally… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And also to short half-life of the radioactive materials so that by the time it gets to the back end in 30 minutes it’s not as hot and it isn’t going to hurt river as much. The fish…we were really…okay well these basins were made out of concrete and pretty soon the joints, you know from expanding and contracting you know and now it’s hot, water is coming out at 200 degrees, now all of a sudden the water is cold coming out at the cool. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: These joints expanded, cracked, you know those basins are 12 feet deep and so pretty soon we had holes and we had as much water running out between the cracks to the river as we were getting through the main tube. So we ended up having to go in there and fill up the cracks and grout underneath the thing and stop any leaks. Weisskopf: Did you have to shut off the reactor while you did this? Baumgartner: Oh yes, yeah. And when we were doing that was when we were doing Ball 3X. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: When we were putting Ball 3X we did the basin. So we did reactor after reactor after reactor. And I was in the 100-F Area, which did F, H, and DR, and D, and then went over to B when we did B and C. And monitoring at that time, I was monitoring and we…See basins got hot because if you had a rupture before you could shut the damn thing off… Weisskopf: Something got out. Baumgartner: Something got out…well where did it go? To in the basin, and then it settled out in the basin and so we had a lot of washing to do and… Weisskopf: Before, when you emptied it out of water, was it not so hot that you could walk down there, walk around and take samples and things like that? Baumgartner: Not at first… Weisskopf: Really? Okay. Baumgartner: Not at first. What we did the first was we hosed all the concrete off and you know so when that went down the hole, you know you can’t stop that. Anyway we picked up all that hot water and that went back to the tank farms. And then we, cause see there could be part, pieces of metal… Weisskopf: Sure. Baumgartner: See the slug didn’t necessarily have to be fresh, it could be an old piece of slug. Now you’ve got it reading hotter than hell in little spots, reading 100,000 counts per minute. You know and you walk on that, 3,000 is a millirem, you’ve got 35 millirem. So you couldn’t walk on that. You know 35 millirem you could walk 30 minutes a day. So, and that’s about what they did. So they brought in 200 workers and they got to work 30 minutes each. You know going in and going… Weisskopf: You were the person who was sitting around with a clipboard and you know… Baumgartner: No that was the monitors, that’s the guys working for me. Weisskopf: What were you doing? Baumgartner: I was their boss. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Baumgartner: I was looking at the readings they were taking. When they went down to see whether we should change the time, changing of the time was my responsibility, making sure the people didn’t get over exposed. Weisskopf: So you were getting pressure at both ends. Baumgartner: Absolutely. Weisskopf: Try to get the work done, but let’s not kill these guys either and… Baumgartner: So I was the interface to the guys out doing operations. Weisskopf: And theoretically everything you did was by a book, there weren’t a lot of subjective decisions to make. Baumgartner: Subjective decision was you don’t get over 250 millirem a week for sure. Weisskopf: But, yeah. Baumgartner: And if you were in a hot job like we were you allowed ‘em up to 50 millirem a day... Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …and the amount of time it took to make 30 millirem, I mean 50 millirem, that’s all they got to work. Weisskopf: So there wasn’t a lot of room for discussion then. Baumgartner: No. And each guy that went in, you took his time in and you told him when the hell to get out. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And you had a loud speaker and he says ‘okay Joe Blow get your butt out.’ Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And you expected them out. And if he didn’t’ get out soon enough then he didn’t go in again. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: Because I would go over to the old supervisor and I’d say ‘that guy didn’t listen, I don’t want him in there.’ Weisskopf: And did you find ____ (unclear) would add up to kind of what you were estimating? Baumgartner: Pretty much. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: Pretty much. Again there was a problem where the CP says one thing and the badge says another. So now you’ve got to figure out what the hell is going on. Weisskopf: Did they ever wear multiple badges? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh yes, some of them, we wore like two days, some of them one day. You know you’d wear them one shift… Weisskopf: Did ever put any on your ankles? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Oh you did? Baumgartner: Shoes… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: …inside the shoes, on the forehead, you know in back of the head, the chest, belly, gonads, knees… Weisskopf: At any one time how many would you be wearing? Baumgartner: …wrist. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And you’d do that, on the basin work we did that for the first three weeks. Weisskopf: And each worker could work at maybe a half an hour a day. Baumgartner: Yeah. We said the CP said you can work 30 minutes. So you’d wear those and when he’d suit up…When he’d suit up underneath, you know on the first pair of coveralls he’d have these badges clipped to it or taped and then he’d have another pair over the top of it and another pair over the top of that, so there was three pair of coveralls on. Because you didn’t want him to get contaminated…cause ahhh…if he contaminated badges it’s bad news because that’s the radiation close, that just screws up the whole radiation reading. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So we wanted to make damn sure. And then we were, when it was wet then we wore wet suits and a few things like that. It was a, getting ready took longer and going out took longer than it was to work. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, that much I can tell you. Weisskopf: And how quickly would you get the badge readings back? The next day or? Baumgartner: We could get the reading the next day. Weisskopf: Were you pretty comfortable with the results… Baumgartner: No we wear them you know, generally speaking for the test that we did with the 10 badges, we would wear them with the badge that he wore… Weisskopf: Oh right. Baumgartner: So that we had a reference point to all these 10 measurements. And that’s, otherwise you can’t correlate it. Also too remember now this…this badge system isn’t necessarily “that accurate at low doses.” So you wanted to have enough dose on there to where you could have reasonable accuracy. And since the guy was taking 50 millirem per day in a week’s time he got 250. So 250 is a very good reading out of a film badge and you know you get good statistics. You could get a good feeling as to what his body was getting. Weisskopf: So you took the 10 badges and then looked at the single badge that was being worn by the same person and said ‘well it looks like when this badge reads this much, his feet were getting this much, his chest was getting this much…’ Baumgartner: Okay, feet…arms and feet can get 10 times what the body can get. So now is this job going to be limiting to the hands, or is this job going to be limiting the body? Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And the only way you know that is to put on the extremities. Weisskopf: And the feet especially, in that case. Baumgartner: Well, also he’s playing with hands…you don’t if he’s kneeling, so therefore the knees…you know… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because these guys do all kinds of dumb things. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You know, I don’t want to stop them from working. You know, they might go down, they might be on their knees so you had to, we had to correlate. And you had to be sure that you weren’t going say ‘well hell he’s burning out his legs before he gets to 250,’ maybe he’s going to get to the legs 300…you know you can’t do that. So you say ‘hey, you gotta stop. We’re only gonna let you get 30 because you’re limiting to the feet.’ Get what I’m trying to say? So, even though the whole body said it was, you’re well within limits, extremity dose. And see an extremity dose went into the records also. You know, that’s also been recorded for these people. That’s in the guy’s file. Weisskopf: Because you had the badges on. Baumgartner: Right. Whatever dosimeter reading we ever put on a guy, that’s been recorded in his file. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, there is a lot of things that were…and we were developing those kinds of thoughts because no one had ever done the basin work before. Also too, its little things like when we were on the concrete once we always kept everything wet, so when they working there we had a spray system. Weisskopf: Just for dust, keep the dust out? Baumgartner: Keep the concrete wet…and I’ll tell you why. Weisskopf: Oh, oh, oh, physically just to keep it at wet… Baumgartner: Wet, so that it can’t move. In C Basin, metal basin, they weren’t careful and on Saturday we had a whirly week and we ____ (unclear). Weisskopf: You mean it just blew the stuff out? Baumgartner: Just sucked it right out there and spread it over the countryside. So we went out one Saturday, that’s when we found the particle problem from West Area. That problem started in the 100 Areas… Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: …because we had a dry basin and the 100 Areas when the workers came in on the five-fold, all of a sudden…wow we’ve got the patrolmen coming in, we were setting the five-fold off. They shouldn’t have, you coming to work. So they called us up and so we sent a crew out there and sure enough, there was particles all over. So, we started then trying to delineate this problem. So as we were moving away from B Area, it was getting lighter and lighter and lighter, less and less specks. And we were going down the railroad, and when we were going from B Area say to 2 West Area, Suzie-Q junction. We got to the Suzie-Q junction and it was kind of clean, so the guy said ‘well hell, lets go another half mile.’ So we went down another half mile, and lo and behold it started going up. Now if the source is C, what’s it doing hot over there? And as we got toward West, we got more and more and more, higher, and higher, and higher. So we says well alright, we’ll take a carload of guys and we’ll go over to 2 West Area. So we drove over there with six guys of us and I had one guy that hadn’t gotten out of the car yet and he turned his instrument on, put the probe on the ground, and 10,000 counts per minute. “Ahhhh.” So that’s how we discovered the C-Stock, you know the REDOX plow, the REDOX, the ruthenium problem. And we delineated that that day and then we were totally confused because see a GM doesn’t tell you want the radiation coming from is, it just tells you activity and it wasn’t until we had, at that time, a 256 channel analyzer, it was a big thing. There were only two on the plant, one in 189-D and one down in 300 Area. So now we had to take samples and we took ‘em and it turns out the ruthenium was beta emitter so we were getting like bremsstrahlung on a very low energy (unclear). But the 100 Area stuff gave us a spectra, fission product. Yeah, ‘ahhh what is’, you know so it took us…and we delineated the whole problem and then we had, oh 50-100 monitors, three feet apart and straight head and every time they found a speck the guy from J.E. Jones would go over with a shovel and pick it up, put it in the bucket. Until they… Weisskopf: So these specks were from REDOX or from… Baumgartner: REDOX and from the…yeah, we picked ‘em both up. Weisskopf: Okay, but it was specks, it was not covering the ground. Baumgartner: No no, it was little flecks, you know because uh…it’s like dirt. Little you know, the stuff kind of sticks to something else, or if it was a liquid it got absorbed in a solid material, you know, and was…that’s it. So that’s, so lots of things happened and whose fault was it? Well, too damn late to worry about that, just don’t let it happen again. You know you had your investigations and then you modified your procedures and this is how things got done. Weisskopf: So, it was new industry. Baumgartner: Yes. We never had clean basins before. Hadn’t cleaned a metal basin before and that dried out faster than the concrete. Weisskopf: Wonder why… Baumgartner: Well it’s metal… Weisskopf: Concrete’s absorbent… Baumgartner: Yeah, that’s why it stayed wet. Weisskopf: Oh damp, yeah. Baumgartner: Damp, stayed wet and where the stuff would have stayed down then the air probably wouldn’t have sucked that light particle up, because it would have been tied with water. See after that, boy, it was underneath two inches of water, and water running down the sides and all that kind of stuff. It increased the cost of doing the job, but it should of because we can’t afford the risk of letting things get away from us, that takes us away from T Plant. Weisskopf: Well, it actually is closer to reactor which is very interesting because people, you know, there wasn’t much radiation in the normal cooling water, but over years and years of operation stuff had settled out there. Baumgartner: Well, it was from the particulate coming from the ruptures. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: It was the ruptures that were… Weisskopf: Pure water in itself will come out perfectly… Baumgartner: Pure water and if there is no rupture it will stay why…it will be hot in the sense that you’ve activated the oxygen and nitrogen, but see that’s a short half-life material and so by the time it gets 30 minutes, it’s gone. You know, that’s like 10, 15-20 half-lives. Anything that goes more than 10-20 half-lives is pretty much gone and it’s not that high to start with, you know you’re talking about a couple thousand count per minute so what went back to the river was really low, except when you had a rupture. There are no filters out there. At least there weren’t then. I don’t think there is any now. When a rupture, but see now we have such fast equipment that…. Weisskopf: You mean in a regular reactor? Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Such as if the primary coolant ruptured into the secondary. Baumgartner: Well no… Weisskopf: Or something like that… Baumgartner: That one we could handle, but even then you had to stop, you know you had the water flow. It has to go through…but, see most of that flow, a rupture would have gone through the cooling water and goes right down to the basin and out she goes and as far as I know there’s no filter on that. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And I don’t think it would have caught these small particles anyway. Weisskopf: Well it would have been… Baumgartner: You can’t drive 55,000 gallons, let’s be honest. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You just can’t drive that through a HEPA filter. Weisskopf: And change it every hour. Baumgartner: Yeah. So, that make any sense? Weisskopf: Oh yeah. It all makes sense, it’s all good, and I think before we burn you out completely. You have your burn in out in how long you can talk, you know but it’s all relevant. You know, right now we are looking at T Plant, some of the things that ____ (unclear)… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: So a lot of things you talked about were great for that, but the work at the reactor with the Ball 3X) and the basins is the first time I have talked to somebody who worked on cleaning out the basins. So that was interesting. Baumgartner: Oh there were a lot of things. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: I was very lucky because I got to move. I got into places…. Weisskopf: Everybody did. I don’t know of anybody who had one job for like 20 years. Baumgartner: No, no. Weisskopf: Certainly not in the early days. Baumgartner: No, not during time of operation. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: The most you were allowed to stay in any one place is a year, except when I went to 2345 I stayed from, you know 1954 to 1958. Weisskopf: Did they encourage you to move around? Baumgartner: Oh absolutely, they wanted you to be able to go anyplace. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Since I had been in the 100 Areas they didn’t hesitate to call me if they had a problem out there to whip me out there. Weisskopf: So that must of been the security issues of not letting anybody learn too much about any particular process, that was less of an issue then. --- I wish we had more opportunity to do it in a more relaxed, you know sort of an ongoing thing, but other people too. Because otherwise you know you spend your whole life in this career and now we’re asking for this much of it. Baumgartner: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Weisskopf: And, you’re getting just a little tip of the iceberg sample of it. Baumgartner: And there is no way, I don’t think there is anyway that we can give all to you in any way. Weisskopf: Some people like to write their autobiographies, some people go teach a class, but otherwise there is no direct ongoing way to ____ (unclear). Baumgartner: See for instance like the first and third Wednesday of every month at the… Weisskopf: Right… Baumgartner: …the monitors meet, guys that I used to work with. Weisskopf: Like Bob is there... Baumgartner: Yeah. And these guys have that early knowledge because they’re all retirees and they all had come in and either like, most of the guys that come in about 1949. Prior to that, it was the guys that were management were then down monitoring. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: In my early years, I had an instrument in my hand a lot. If we were really deeply concerned about the radiation problems and that, I went in. I wouldn’t let my monitors go in. Up until ’58, at which time then the union had come in and only the monitors could monitor and then we had to step back, but I was allowed to go until ’58 and the reason for that is because I had been in 2345 Building a long time and we had an interesting monitoring problem. Secondly, I was working on monitoring problems, the doses associated with taking this reading and then what’s the dose, coming up with rules of thumb. We worked, I worked on that. Also too, I was involved in investigations and no one had more incidents than we had in the 200 Areas, it was profound. Whether it happened at REDOX or T Plant or 2345, or 231, or at B Plant, or you know…it was all…I mean and there was a lot going on, a lot we were learning and from investigating. And then you didn’t always get the truth from everybody when they told you oh I did this, I did that, you had to kind of figure out…that’s not the way it was…the way it really was and then after you tell them the way it was, then they try and say ‘yeah that’s the way was.’ But it, sometimes to go, it took quite a bit of effort to….because people are naturally defensive, you know it’s their job…yeah, yeah there you got involved. And no one wants to admit to a mistake, I don’t care who it is…whether, today’s world is no different and it was hard to get some of these things out. We had lots of interesting incidents you know like a piece of plutonium in a guys arm…that’s in… had a guy put his hand who put his hand in the bottom of a TTPA solution of plutonium and it went right through the glove and everything right into his hand you know, millions of ____ (s/l dperem). Days and days where he never went home obviously. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Millions of ____ (s/l dperem) and I was involved in all of them. I got involved in all of, I got pulled of my regular assignment. I also built analog models to see how well DDTA works, EDTA, DTPA, how well these things work in terms of removing things that were causing confusion. Weisskopf: There wasn’t anywhere to go for the books right? Baumgartner: We were writing it, we were writing it. And no one knew how much to give, you know, I give how much, what can I expect? And from the very meager data that we had and the very meager number of cases we had, we developed models that have held up very well, held up for 40 years. So, the work we did wasn’t that bad. I think that we did, I think personally we did very good work. I think the guys that I worked with were sterling. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh God, they, it was, I guess it was the right people at the right time. Really and truly it was, I’m very proud of the record we’ve got when you think we didn’t know anything and we never killed anybody. And the guys that we could have hurt, you know the guys with the heavy incidents, not too many of those died say from like leukemia or anything like that. Most of them died of heart, and not at young ages…79, 80…oh all this kind of stuff, and those that did die from things that….they’ve been compensated as far as I know, they might have had to go to court and all that, but nevertheless I don’t think we’ve been very belligerent. So, it’s just, I don’t know… Weisskopf: It’s interesting because every industry has a fatality factor right…and you guys were starting out in an industry that no track record and look back is how you go and… Baumgartner: Yeah… Weisskopf: …compare it to other industries, other chemical industries, heavy industries… Baumgartner: Yeah. We’re the only industry that I know that has…since people aren’t dying right from the amount of radiation they got based on the epidemiology, that we have healthy workers and they predicated that, because we got our physicals and we got monitored and so consequently we must have seen things early and so therefore they didn’t die. The alternative to that is that maybe fellas…they didn’t get as much radiation as you thought they got. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: You know that’s an alternative. Maybe we weren’t healthier than anybody else, I don’t think we were, and just because we were getting medical doesn’t necessarily mean we aren’t dying from heart, stroke, or everything else just like everybody else is. So, but how do you prove that we didn’t have as much radiation as they’re putting in the files? So, I worked with Ethel Gilbert for five years who was the epidemiologist for the plant, who said we should have so many deaths and Jack Fick’s is now the guy that has that. I worked for him and we proved, or I proved I thought, that the amount of fast neutron dose that was given to our employees was considerably less than what they’ve got on the file. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: Yeah. Because they automatically added 15 millirem per week of neutrons to every worker, operator, pipe fitter… Weisskopf: Just as a safety factor? Baumgartner: Yeah it’s just a booby factor. And that’s what makes our numbers look so big see…the amount of neutrons exceeds the gamma and that’s not possible. That’s where I came from. Weisskopf: What… Baumgartner: That’s the safety factor to give you the best estimate of how many people should be dying by when and what. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And see okay you say well we should be getting so many deaths, well then if they’re not dying, now what? Well, they said we have a safety factor, healthy employees, when in truth maybe your estimate of exposure is a little bit high. Weisskopf: The other alternative is that the radiation was good for them. Baumgartner: That’s an alternative which many of us in Health Physics have indicated for the simple reason, background is 300 millirem per year from the sun, from the ground, and so you ask yourself if we are getting 300 millirem you know, we’ve been having that since birth, even before birth, is that injuring us? “Are we any dumber than the Ape man was?” 10,000 years, 100,000 years…everything was higher then than it is now, because now the things decayed you know. Every 94,000 years is a half-life or 10, or whatever uranium 238 I think is quite a bit, but 2345. So you ask yourself these questions and you come up with, you know you wonder whether people aren’t better off. Weisskopf: Do things like bacteria have the same susceptibility to radiation as the human cell? Baumgartner: Yes, that’s…fundamentally bacteria are one cell… Weisskopf: Okay… Baumgartner: And so therefore… Weisskopf: it’s not as if you’re perhaps killing off bacteria before your hurting yourself. Baumgartner: No, no you’re getting mutants so they are getting used to…. I can believe that. But, I think we’re generating more mutants via the chemical route then we are ever with radiation. Personally, that just…and the reason for that is 10 to the 10th photons per centimeter squared is a rad. Okay, that’s 10 to the 10th. Now lets go back, how many atoms or molecules are there in a molecular wave and it’s 6 x 7 to the 23rd …okay so I if can’t see a million, oh so I’ll be generous, a billion. One part in a billion is what? Take 9 from 23, you get 14. That’s still 4 orders of magnitude higher than 1 rad. So therefore chemically, bigger numbers. One part per million is 10 to the 17th, kinds of things…we’re talking about 10 to the 10th which is a rad and we’re talking about 0.3 a year. You get the idea of the…the chemical in my judgement is much more fearsome or fearing. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Due to the fact that’s seven orders of magnitude or 10 orders of magnitude. Different, higher and so therefore that’s a much more severe problem. Weisskopf: Interesting. Baumgartner: Am I, give you a coruler, to me I find 10 to the 10th a good-sized number. This is what my…am I making sense? Weisskopf: Yeah. But there is also the fact though that we are exposed to the chemicals every day of our life in every situation. Where radiation… Baumgartner: That we’re willing to accept, just like we are willing to accept 65,000 deaths on the highway. Weisskopf: That’s where, I know. Baumgartner: And that’s per year. See, so there’s a funny, we have a funny sense of value. Weisskopf: What do you think it is that put nuclear, all things nuclear, in the light that their in today? Baumgartner: Fear of the unknown. None of us people could get up in front of a hearing, a senate hearing and say, will one rad, how much torque will that give? I can’t tell you. You know, they can tell you what a mile of road will do, but they can tell you what a rad (unclear) will do. Weisskopf: But, that mile of road is only based on statistics from what happened the year before… Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: …it’s not like a physical thing. Baumgartner: Right and we couldn’t, and see even though you haven’t had an incident you start with epidemiology and you play games. A case in point is the reactor incident in New York, you know, where the reactor blew up and they’re arguing, two PhD’s are arguing, whether it caused a half a death or a whole death. Weisskopf: Right, statistically, yeah. Baumgartner: Yeah. I rest my case. And, and these arguments gets enraged in the papers, scare the hell out of everybody. Weisskopf: I presume the same thing is going to be happening with genetically engineered things for better or worse, for right or wrong. Baumgartner: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: You don’t think people are going be real worried about it? Baumgartner: No. If they were, there would be upheaval…and there is no upheaval in the paper…not like there was against nuclear. Starting in ’56 my God anti-nuclear was…Ralph Nader was in the paper everyday. Weisskopf: But it wasn’t nuclear reactors back then was it? It was nuclear… Baumgartner: He sure as hell did go after…well yeah…but see they equated everything to bomb. There was nothing but a bomb. You didn’t have a reactor, that didn’t mean anything. Weisskopf: It was just a controlled bomb. Baumgartner: Yeah, I mean it was a bomb, it was a bomb. Everything was bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. Nuclear power, didn’t even want to, they wouldn’t let us hardly build any reactors in the United States. I think we have what about 10, 12. France has about 30. You know, they’re tweaking their nose at all of us saying go ahead let their price of gasoline get high, we don’t care we’ll go build another six reactors. They’ve operated now for 50 years and they’re doing really fine. Our reactors have done fine. I mean the worst criticality incident we had might have cause a half a death…maximum a one death. Now is that something to be outrageously feared? Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: How many reactor years have we got? We must have, by now we must have 300-400 years of reactor years with experience and we’re not even thinking about it. Weisskopf: But when you started, did you feel like you were getting into the industry that was going to replace the oil industry? I mean was it… Baumgartner: No, no, no. No, no that didn’t’ happen until…we never went into those kinds of things until 1956. For instance when Eisenhower, he had the Atoms for Peace Program where we gave away 500 reactors you know swimming the pool type reactors. Khadafy got three of them at 100 kilowatts which is two bombs a year for those people who…If you want to see something interesting, Dan Rather had a special one time in which he was reporting on how many airplanes had been left in the desert. We didn’t need them you know, B-24s and B-17s, and… Weisskopf: During what period? Baumgartner: After World War II. Weisskopf: Just left them there? Baumgartner: Just left them there, it didn’t pay to bring them back. The thing that was interesting is…all of the tails were missing. You know the part that rises? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Here you’ve got 300 airplanes on the deck and not one of them has got a tail. Now what’s with that? Well that’s strange and then I read the Washington State Law, which allows Boeing Airplane Company to put 1,500 pounds of uranium into the tail of a ’47, 500 pounds into a 707. Did you know that? Weisskopf: Just for balance? Baumgartner: Yeah, cause see uranium weighs (unclear) of 19, lead is only 11. So that for the same volume I almost get twice as much weight and you don’t have that much space. However, it’s only depleted uranium. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: So, we’re getting rid of that big pile of depleted uranium that we…. However, what is depleted uranium? Weisskopf: It’s uranium that’s been through a reactor or a separations process. Baumgartner: And what’s the primary nucleon? Weisskopf: 238. Baumgartner: Beautiful. And what is 238? It’s the mother atom of plutonium. Weisskopf: If you put it, yeah… Baumgartner: If I put a neutron into 238 it goes uranium 239, later it goes off and becomes plutonium 239, ahhh so… we let 300 airplanes with 500 pounds of uranium go to Khadafy. I’m sure that he can put them through a roller and make ¼ inch thick uranium sheets and line 17-foot pool reactors with that and let all the… Weisskopf: Make is similar, yeah… Baumgartner: Yeah, and let it sit, but who the hell cares? And you know then every once and awhile, maybe once a year or once every two years, you to take that out, put another sheet in there and then go over to a laboratory with a hood and dissolve that baby up and… The chemistry of plutonium is well-known by everybody. I mean if Russia’s got it, Khadafy’s got it. So, the guy, he doesn’t have to steal plutonium from the Israelis. Just like the Israelis didn’t steal it from anybody else, they made their own. So how can you keep, with 500 reactors out there, how can you keep plutonium not from happening to people? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Anyway and that happened to us. Once we knew those reactors were going against our judgement, because Eisenhower says no we want to let everybody have the nuclear, because we want them to make the measurements on metal fatigue and so on, so on. It sounded good, but you buy this problem which we did. Which we have, and anyway I helped write state law. Weisskopf: You helped what? Baumgartner: Write the state law for us being an agreement state. Weisskopf: Which state law. Baumgartner: Washington State. Weisskopf: About what. Baumgartner: Nuclear. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: Go read it, it’s down at the library. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I think its 208 or something like that. And then you go back in there and you look at what they can put into an airplane and there is a whole bunch of little things in there that scare the hell out of ya. You know for a guy who’s been in radiation protection. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, that’s… Weisskopf: Interesting. It’s a whole tangent I hadn’t imagined. Baumgartner: Yeah, well…you’re not, you’ve never been in the field. Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: And so you wouldn’t…would you ask a question? No. I’ve given you more information then the questions you’ve asked, because there are interesting little aspects that go with this whole thing. They are not necessarily good for the T Plant. Weisskopf: Well and the other thing is, just asking questions might be not what’s interesting or ____ (unclear) other things you’ve done. You know I might be asking questions that don’t really relate to you too. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: So I think that I always do better if I shut-up a bit and let people talk about the things.. Baumgartner: Lets us talk… Weisskopf: …they’re comfortable about or interested in, or find important. Baumgartner: Yeah, and all of us have had, like you say, had interesting careers. There isn’t hardly any guy that you’ll talk to that doesn’t felt that he did a good job. At least in radiation protection. Weisskopf: Now did you have any friends who quit because they didn’t think it was safe? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Or didn’t like the management? Baumgartner: Oh yes, oh yes…lots. We brought in 500 chemists and we lost 75 the first year. Weisskopf: Just the green… Baumgartner: From as soon as they found out what the hell was here, they didn’t want any part of that… nuclear bomb. I had a good friend who no longer could do the job that I ended up getting after he left. Signing off on all those weapons. Weisskopf: Oh, not for… TAPE #2 SIDE B Baumgartner: Like for instance an H-Bomb, that’s so hellaciously large and that’s not against just military. That has to be against civilian population. Weisskopf: What military installation is that big? Baumgartner: Is that big? You know, you know… Weisskopf: New York City is that big…. Baumgartner: Yeah right. And so you get rid of the back up for the military which is the people, and that’s what H-Bomb, and it’s so hellaciously large that you’ve ruined your political system if you drop it. I mean you know you drop seven bombs on Russia and you haven’t got enough big cities left or enough politicians left to do anything. And if you let those people, if you warn them and then you destroyed the city after they’re out, what do you do with all these locusts? I mean they, just you have anarchy so, there isn’t anybody that I know of in the political system that is so paranoid that would use a weapon. The reason they won’t is because, like Khadafy, he’s only got three cities and then he hasn’t got anything left. I mean what’s he going to be ruler of? You know, so you drop nine bombs on America and you’ve got like 75 million people, what are you going to do with 75 million people out in the countryside. Weisskopf: Now, would somebody have stayed here working at 2345 if they were adamantly against nuclear weapons? And the policy of having nuclear weapons? Baumgartner: Yeah, but I didn’t meet too many of those. The only one I met was one the guy who was signing off when he realized how many weapons there were, the number was so large, it was so mind boggling that to build any more he thought was, you know, crazy. Weisskopf: And politically you were still comfortable with what was going on? ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: Well we were…. Weisskopf: …reasonable approach. Baumgartner: I felt much more comfortable once we had the H-Bomb, because see the A-Bomb is small enough to where it could be a tactical weapon and we built a lot of cannon shells, but there is no… The H-Bomb is a whole different thing and if you ever escalate, my God, I would assume soon the political boys would take care of us. Weisskopf: So you thought that the sheer lunacy of even trying to use one… Baumgartner: The sheer lunacy of going against America with 30,000 weapons is lunacy, even if you figure on getting 90%… Weisskopf: Right, it’s still not… Baumgartner: No…it’s just crazy. And we can’t afford to go against Russia even with 6,000. I mean 60. What are we going to do against 60? Or 600? I mean it’s crazy. Weisskopf: You would have more deaths civilian and otherwise in the first half-hour of the war then…. Baumgartner: Yeah, you would no longer have any capability, in my judgement, of attacking further. In other words, there is no way you can invade us nor can we invade them because there is too much anarchy. There is just no law and order. I don’t care what anybody says. Weisskopf: So you thought it was a reasonable approach to international…. Baumgartner: Yeah, the bigger pile was, the better I liked it, because now I don’t care…even a little paranoia stops you from using it. You no longer have to worry about large paranoia, just even a little, even a little bit. Any sane man, even a sane man is scared much less a paranoid. That’s the way I thought. I’ve let my views be known and you didn’t agree or not agree, but that’s the way I felt. It just didn’t make sense. There aren’t 600 targets out there or 6,000 targets out in this world, there just aren’t. And then when people started talking about China… I went to China, 25 years ago admittedly, but I was worried, but there is no way in hell China can do anything. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean what can they do with a sampan? You know, sure they got 7,000 or 10,000 sampans, but they aren’t going to be able to come across the ocean. I mean remember when they invaded Vietnam? Maybe that was before your time. After we left Vietnam, China went to invade Vietnam. And they got 7 miles into the country and couldn’t go any further, and you know why? The single transportation that they had was a single railroad line that were bringing supplies from 1,000 miles back out to the front. So when they sent a soldier to the front, he had a knapsack full of whatever the hell they put in there, but he can’t put a ton in there. I mean if he puts 90 pounds in there for a little guy like that he’s got a lot. Okay, how much food is that, how much ammunition is that, etc. How long will he last? A week? 10 days? 15 at the most, and then what does he do? Then you’ve got to retreat…and that’s exactly what happened. So they put…ah…Remember the Tiamen Square fiasco? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Well, I was in Peking a few years before that and to give you an example of a problem. When I was there, there were two filling stations in Peking for the military vehicles and for everything else. During the day the military vehicles were loaded with food stuffs which they brought into town and dropped off and the people then picked it up with (unclear) and then the military, at night then could go out, pick up soldiers and bring them in. Well, how many, I think they had like 15-20 trucks one-ton trucks, well how many guys can you pick up with 25 trucks, until you can get an army of 10,000 guys? It takes weeks and if you recall they were running around Tiamen Square for weeks before they finally quelled them and that’s because it took them that long to get the 10,000 GI’s in there to do it. So you can…to me China is not a threat. They’re a threat in terms of nuclear, but their sure not a threat…now if they could blow us out of the world okay then you know that’s a threat. Now they might be the ones who might use a nuclear weapon with a rocket. Weisskopf: Theoretically, I mean the theory that anybody who understands them well enough and knows how to use them offensively, would never do it again somebody who has equal weapons. Baumgartner: No and they’re even more conservative than we are, so…Anyway I… Weisskopf: You can’t be world power without it… Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: You don’t feel like your part of the big boys unless you do have the capability. Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: Germany, France, or England, or China. Baumgartner: Right, right, right. So, anyway…I have gone to these countries just to see what’s, you know, what’s there. To give you an example, inside of Peking there are two roads, four lanes. One going east and west and one going north and south and as soon as you get to the edge of the city…now how do you know you’re at the edge of city? Because that’s the last house, which is a high-rise apartment, and then it’s a two-lane highway. And how do I know that was a two-lane highway? Because we went to the China Wall. So we went out north and went to the China Wall, and then when we came in we were going to go to the coastline and as soon as we got out of the south end it was a two-lane highway. And if you want to see how they made the road, down at Kweilin which is way down south, they were making it in three-foot squares and they had a manual tamper like we have you know, and a three foot square that big was all that that half-ton truck could hold. So they made it in three-foot squares. Can you imagine going down the highway, and I was looking at this, and there was this quilt of three-foot squares and when I saw that I, you know, I couldn’t imagine it until I asked somebody. I said “what is this?” and he says well that’s….so each truck load gave a three-foot square, and the next truck. When I saw all that I says why worry? We’ve got enough power, no one is going to attack. We will not use it, because there aren’t enough targets anyplace. And if you notice all of the stuff that, they’ve always stayed with explosives. Weisskopf: They’ve what? Baumgartner: Everybody’s always stayed with explosives, TNT, plastic…they’ve stayed away from nuclear. Weisskopf: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting in 50 year’s time. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: There has never been an occasion to use one. Baumgartner: The only nuclear material we have every used against anybody was when we were at the Gulf War… Weisskopf: Oh the depleted uranium… Baumgartner: The depleted uranium shells… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh I was upset when I heard that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Wow. Weisskopf: Just because it’s not a good metal to be breathing in or? Baumgartner: You’re spreading uranium all over hell. Weisskopf: Oh uranium that could be useful to somebody. Baumgartner: Yeah, my feeling is there is a, I’ve got these five million shells, I mean we’ve given them a gift. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Does he have to steal anything? No. (unclear), you know the guy is not an ignorant guy. Weisskopf: Can you buy uranium on the open market? Baumgartner: No. Weisskopf: It’s regulated or? Baumgartner: Well, read the state law and I’ll give you a hint. After the second, third resale value of an airplane it is no longer controlled. Weisskopf: The airplane is new and then it’s sold used…. Baumgartner: And then sold used, and sold used again, and when that happens it’s no longer regulated, no longer put on the books. And if you go to some of these small airports you will see 707’s with tails missing. Weisskopf: Okay, I’m gonna watch for it. Baumgartner: Watch for it when you’re in these foreign countries. Weisskopf: How many pounds do they put in? Baumgartner: 500. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: It’s an appreciable amount. You don’t have to, I mean that will make quite a bit of ¼ inch thick sheeting. Thermal neutrons will not go through more than a ¼ inch. Weisskopf: And is it depleted uranium only because it’s more valuable for other uses when it’s not depleted? Or? Baumgartner: Well, 235. Weisskopf: Or is it that they won’t sell real uranium in a metallic version? Baumgartner: Oh they sell regular uranium all the time. That’s in the open market. There’s a uranium market in the world. Weisskopf: But, why do they use depleted in the back of… Baumgartner: Oh because we have this big warehouse full of it you know that’s about 17 miles long and 18 miles wide that’s… Weisskopf: Really? Okay. Baumgartner: You know where we sucked out the 0.35% and made reactor material at 5%, so… Weisskopf: I never heard that before. Baumgartner: Well, and then you, what do you do with the reactor material that you rerun? You know, we are such a rich nation that we have not yet at this point in time redissolved a single slug that has gone through a power reactor. Weisskopf: That’s right. Let alone, taking depleted uranium, mixing in plutonium and saying hey we got fuel again. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Well…and we have no plans to recycle fuel. Baumgartner: Not that I, yeah we’re going to de-bury it. It’s crazy. Weisskopf: Have you at all read about what they do in France with their fuel? Baumgartner: um-hum. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: They’re recycling. Weisskopf: How modern or different is it from what you were doing here? Baumgartner: Not any more modern than we proposed, which we already know all about because we had done all the preliminary, we’ve done all the chemistry. Weisskopf: Oh, the one that was going to be back east, that was the one they were going to build. Baumgartner: Yeah, well France has, I think, three of them. Weisskopf: Okay, they ship hot fuel around to various plants. Baumgartner: No, no, no they remake it. Weisskopf: No, but they ship it from the reactor to a separations plant. Baumgartner: To a separations plant. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Yes, then they remake it. Then see, what people don’t understand is that the plutonium that’s in there is really much better than the plutonium that we’ve got because our plutonium is weapons grade, but if you want a reactor grade plutonium…. Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: …you want something that has maybe like 50% of 240. Weisskopf: You like that… Baumgartner: Yeah, cause when it splits, when it hits the neutrons, see instead of giving you…ahh let me see, uranium is 1.4 neutrons, I think, per event. Yeah and plutonium is I think 1.9, 239; 240 I think is 2.6…so now you get 1.6 atoms of plutonium back for every atom used…ha ha….I mean breeder concept is here to stay, now every ton of uranium becomes a ton of plutonium and ….MEV’s is enormous, 9.3 MEV per event…oh God. Weisskopf: It’s a whole different kind of energy production then we have ever had before. Baumgartner: Yeah well… Weisskopf: Especially if you burn it…. Baumgartner: In the 50’s when we through the mathematics of it we said that we have enough uranium on hand at that time, just the uranium part, that we would have 400 years with a 2% growth per year. You know where we go to reactors, and if we went the breeder concept, we have no idea how much. I mean it’s like having 10,000 oil fields. Because now instead of 0.35% of the uranium going into plutonium atoms, you’ve got to stop talking about the whole works. And 0.35 is something like the factor of 300. So now 400 years x 300. You know you say to yourself…well…and that’s without the new found uranium, without…so…it’s such a large number that I guess people didn’t believe it. You know because at least the Americans didn’t. So, it’s just a… I could study, but I stopped worrying about studies in ’67, by that time we had done all the ways there were. We had done all the recovery. We already had the classification. We had them on a monolith, with making it into a great big monolith of concrete, with you know, which was do you want to go with what levels? There were two other methods for making little glass balls…so there was a whole bunch of methods that we had developed all here. Weisskopf: How much waste was there going to be, or is there in France from a modern efficient, recycling of hot fuel. Baumgartner: Each reactor produces a tube of material 17 feet long and one-foot in diameter per year. Weisskopf: A tube of unusable material? Baumgartner: Of fission products, not plutonium and not uranium. Weisskopf: But, which you know you can take out and reuse. 17 feet long and how big around? Baumgartner: One foot in diameter. Weisskopf: And that would be very hot stuff. Baumgartner: No necessarily, because you’ve also taken out the strontium and you’ve also taken out the cobalt. Weisskopf: I wonder if they’re doing that in France… Baumgartner: Yes, yes, yes. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: They’re using the technology we developed in the ‘60s. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I can tell you that right now. The separations plant is a PUREX plant. Weisskopf: And do they have a permanent waste storage for the stuff they… Baumgartner: Yes they do…yes they do. But remember now, these old slugs, these old 17-foot long, some of them are innocuous almost. They’ve been around 25 years, so after 25 years as far as I’m concerned that’s no longer a problem. But, you leave it where it’s at and it’s not that big of deal. So there, I think they’ve got what 30 reactors, so they’ve got 30 of these tubes per year. I mean, you know, if you can put them in the ground and if they’re not generating enough heat anymore, especially the old ones, you don’t need to you know hardly do anything with them. You know…a little bit of water-cooling and that’s just undoable, you know to a pipe. Weisskopf: Was there any talk 25 years ago getting the tanks emptied out in the 200 Areas? Baumgartner: Oh yes, oh yes, that’s when we talked about getting the bismuth and the aluminum and all that type of thing. Weisskopf: But they never took the time or the money to set up a system of doing it? Baumgartner: We did all the preliminary work, like I call the test tube work, so we know what the reaction, we know what it takes to do it. Yes. So, deep geological storage was just the ____ enthima, I mean that was crazy, crazy, crazy, all that uranium. And that’s all 5% and we haven’t burned 5%… Weisskopf: Oh…in a modern reactor. Baumgartner: In a modern reactor is 5% uranium 235. Weisskopf: So, it’s still more enriched than natural uranium. Baumgartner: Oh absolutely, but at least an order of magnitude. Weisskopf: So if you just pull out the uranium, isotopes and all, you end up with something that’s more enriched than… Baumgartner: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Weisskopf: And there’s how many thousands of tons waiting to be buried. Baumgartner: Oh Jesus. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean… Weisskopf: It’s interesting. Baumgartner: I’m sorry, it’s crazy. We’re such a rich country we don’t need to do that. Weisskopf: And oil is not so expensive yet. Baumgartner: No it’s not very high yet, power’s not high yet. Did you know that some of the cheapest power shortly is going to be in that one spot? Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: Well because we were not satisfied until we had put a penalty on the Hydroelectric power plants of 500 million dollars per year. That’s how much the fish are costing us right now. So right now, they can’t sell power from the dams which cost roughly I think 1.6 cents a kilowatt or maybe a tenth of that, but it now costs 5.4 cents and we can make power out here, I know but it’d 4.6. So nuclear power right now is cheaper than dam power. Weisskopf: That’s interesting. Baumgartner: And gas power is now going to be about 12 cents, maybe 18 cents, I don’t know I haven’t seen the latest numbers on the BTUs. The same with oil, see oil doesn’t have to pay the tax. They are burning 24 dollars a barrel type of thing, they’re not paying like we are a few dollars a gallon you know. Weisskopf: Interesting. Baumgartner: So, and these are…we, all of that is in that library out there, I can tell you that now, because all of those became documents that we wrote and that we used to go to meetings, because you know the Health Physics was kind of interested in going to nuclear power, because after all that was our future because we knew ultimately that these reactors would shut down. And so for the monitors and the workers to work, they were going to have to go to reactors and so our future was in private power, you know by the nuclear power. So, we obviously as…since that’s the kind of thing that health physicists, you don’t need them except in you know nuclear plants and separations plants, you know and canyon. So, consequently, they wanted to have all of the reasons why power should be coming along. Anyway, that’s… Weisskopf: Well, it’s interesting how we can move off in other directions so easily, I like that. Baumgartner: Remember that we worked on all of that really early. You know people always say…You haven’t heard Nader say anything in the last 10 years against nuclear power. It isn’t there, because he’s got to read 70,000 documents and lawyers are notoriously famous for reading about two or three and that’s it. Weisskopf: Were you looking forward to retirement when the time came? Baumgartner: Yeah, I had spent 44 years. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: It was long enough, I think it was time for guys like me to go away and let the young guys… No I didn’t have any problem with that. Weisskopf: Still enjoy living in Richland? Baumgartner: Oh absolutely. There’s no traffic. Weisskopf: That’s right. Baumgartner: Short distance. Weisskopf: You don’t realize it until you go anywhere else. Baumgartner: I just came from Phoenix, one and a half million people, like I said 100 blocks took me 45 minutes. I mean I could drive to Pasco in 15. Weisskopf: But why do you need to go to Pasco? Baumgartner: Yeah, but I’m saying…you know. Weisskopf: You’d have to find a reason to go… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: No, I laugh literally, I’m self-employed so I work at home and I put 3,000 miles a year on my car. Baumgartner: So, hardly pays to buy a new one. Weisskopf: No it doesn’t, not at all. Baumgartner: You’re rusting through, just from sitting. Weisskopf: But no, it’s easy to live around here. How long have you been in this house? Baumgartner: 1965. I had it built, first owner. We had lots of first owners here. There is only about three of us left and you’d expect that. Weisskopf: I’m going to turn this off now. Baumgartner: Go ahead. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 38 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Baumgartner (2 PARTS) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with William Baumgartner conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F34757e7991c0b4302f581c36d6f31141.jpg b57899b4456572c689b8c6aaa528cfed https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F583865462e4fa6396d8d362c783d5ae2.mp4 1a5d0b226d8d91e261ba39aaba60fd79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Boice Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: Okay. Robert Franklin: You ready, Tom? Hungate: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George Boice on July 15th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Boice about his experiences living in Richland. So why don’t we start at the beginning, that’s the best place. When and where were you born? George Boice: I was born in Ellensburg. A third generation native of the state of Washington. My father and my grandmother were born in Cle Elum. Franklin: Oh, Wow. Boice: We came through this—the tribe came through this territory and crossed the White Bluffs ferry in 1885. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: And went up to the Kittitas County area. And then we came back later. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What year were you born? Boice: ’37. Franklin: ’37. Did your family work at all at the coal mine in Roslyn? Boice: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Short answers. My grandmother’s brother, Uncle Tony, was a mine rescue worker up there at Roslyn. Franklin: Okay. Boice: You go up to Roslyn, that is interesting. Ever been there? Franklin: Yes, I have. Boice: 27 cemeteries. Just neater than all get out. [LAUGHTER] The different ethnic groups up there. They talk about one Fourth of July, the Italians were going to raise the Italian flag in the main street there. Some of the local citizens took a dim view of it. And some wagons were turned on their side and the Winchesters came out, and the sweet little old lady got out there and got everybody calmed down before the shooting started. [LAUGHTER] But the flag didn’t go up. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So what brought your family down to the Hanford area? Boice: My—[LAUGHTER] When they started Hanford—Dad was a firefighter in Ellensburg, had been for a few years. And when they set up Hanford, the first thing they did for a fire department was pick up the retired fire chief out of Yakima. Well, he goes around to the local fire departments and starts hydrating citizens. [LAUGHTER] So, Dad came down here in ’43 as the ninth man hired at the Hanford Fire Department. Always claimed that half of them had been canned before he got there. [LAUGHTER] So he went to work in ’43—June of ’43 at Hanford. We were still there at Ellensburg, and we didn’t come down here ‘til summer of ’44. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: And they were still moving prefabs in, and unloading them with rapid shape. Franklin: Did your father commute at this time, or did he live on— Boice: Uh-unh. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where did he—do you know much about his living quarters or where he lived? Boice: Yeah, there were barracks. Franklin: So he lived in the barracks? Boice: Oh, yes. Franklin: Okay. Did he come back to visit at all? Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Wasn’t but—hell, by the time you get up to the Hanford area, it’s just over the ridge. [LAUGHTER] So he’d come in every couple of weeks. Franklin: Okay. How many siblings do you have? Boice: One of each—one brother, one sister. Franklin: Older, younger? Boice: Oh, yeah. My brother was born in Kadlec in September of ’45. My sister was—well, they bracket the war. She was born about a month before it started—or right after it started. She was born in December of ’41. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And he was born September of ’45. Franklin: So can you talk a little more about your father’s job at Hanford? What did he—did he talk much about what he did, or— Boice: [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah! You know. The place is building up, it’s trying to erupt. You’ve got construction going all directions. Trailer house fires. He talked about them [EMOTIONAL]—how quick people died in them damn trailer houses. They’d go up in a matter of seconds. And there were acres of them. But yeah, it was—And the amount of nothing to do. I mean, you had time to work and then there was really no recreational facilities. He worked at a grocery store for a while in his off hours stocking milk. He said it was not unusual to work a whole shift with a forklift or a handcart walking out of the stack and filling the same slot behind the counter there. We came over twice to visit him at Hanford. Franklin: Before you moved— Boice: Yeah. Franklin: --in ’44. Okay. Boice: You drive across the Vantage Bridge, and somebody had gone through with a grader and graded out a dirt-slash-gravel road. And we drove around and down, and across the Hanford ferry into Hanford. Because you could get into Hanford; it wasn’t restricted—the town. Everything else was. So getting in and out of Hanford was no trick. Getting out of the surrounding area was. So my mom and I and my grandfather went down there. Franklin: Wow. And where did you stay? Did you just go for the day? Boice: Well, we didn’t—when I was there, we didn’t stay. We just went for the day and went home. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But Mom talks about going down and staying overnight. [LAUGHTER] She says she was not warned. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Warned about what? Boice: To keep everything you wanted nailed down. Franklin: Oh. Boice: She got up in the morning and somebody stole her girdle. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So when your family moved in summer of ’44, where did you move to? Boice: 17-1. Franklin: 17-1? Boice: That was the lot number and the house number. It is now 1033 Sanford. Franklin: Ah. Boice: It’s on the southwest corner of Sanford and Putnam. Franklin: Yup. I live right by there. Boice: We went in there and it was—they had—you can’t describe to people how they had come in there and just dozed the farmland over, staked out streets and planted houses. And hauled them in on trucks and set them down. We were fortunate—I didn’t realize how fortunate it was—in the fact that we had only come about 100 miles or so—we came in a truck. We had our stuff. Mom had her piano. And I can’t tell you how many times women would come up and bang on the door, can I play your piano? Franklin: Really? Boice: Strangers off the street. Just because it was there, and it was—so we had all kind of musical stuff. Everybody could play better than Mom could. But we had the piano. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And she had her houseplants. It was different. But there was no trees in Richland. There wasn’t three blades of grass! [LAUGHTER] You’d come in, you got a garden hose and a plastic nozzle. You hosed down your lot and it immediately became a slick, slimy mud pile. Great for kids to play in! Man, we could slide in that mud across there—it was really cool! And then when it dried up, why, it reticulated like a picture puzzle. So we’re picking chunks up and stacking them up and building houses. And Mom gets up and she’s just madder than a wet hen, so we had to put the lawn back together. [LAUGHTER] But the hose nozzles were so interesting, because when you had a plastic nozzle, but you couldn’t get anything else. There was a hardware store here, eventually, but they didn’t handle stuff like that. This was a war going on. And the ingenuity that went into lawn sprinklers would just boggle your mind! The cutest one I remember was some guy took a chunk of surgical tubing—he got a bent pipe for an uppensticker. And he stretched his hunk of surgical tubing over the end of it, turned the water on, and it was not efficiently watering his area, but he could flail water all over a half an acre! [LAUGHTER] That was one of the cuter ones. There was also no shade and no air conditioning. Franklin: Right. Boice: Coming down in a moving truck, Dad brought his carpenter tools, he brought his bench, and he set to work building an air conditioner. Now, this was the dog-gonedest thing you ever saw. He got some burlap sacks and set out there with scrap lumber in the backyard on his workbench just creating shavings out of boards. Fill these burlap sacks with wood shavings for the pads for his air conditioner. He got a motor out of I-don’t-know-what. It was an appliance motor out of something. And he whittled out this propeller out of a two-by-four. And he cranked this thing up and it sounded like a B-29. [LAUGHTER] But it would blow sort of cool air, which raised the wrath of the neighbors. Number one was the racket he was making. Number two was we had air conditioning. So immediately, guys come out of the woodwork in all directions. Guy next door was a sheet metal worker. He came home with parts to make a much better, more efficient fan that was quieter. [LAUGHTER] So they set to work building him one. [LAUGHTER] We made air conditioners—you come up with a motor, and they would come up with an air conditioner. And we would deliver them on the back of my little red wagon. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where would you put that? Like, would that just go in the window? Boice: We put it in a window. Franklin: Oh, okay. And how would you attach it to the house? Boice: Ingeniously! Most often, they would just build a rack underneath, a shelf on top, and set it up on top there. A houses, you wanted to put your air conditioner—at least about everybody did—set it at the top of the stairs where it would blow out the upstairs and cool your downstairs. They were reasonably efficient. The one thing about all the homemade air conditioners—very few of them, if any, had a recirculating system. So you had to use fresh water. This had two sides to it. You didn’t crud up your water system with alkali by reusing your water. But you did have to go out there and keep moving your hose where it drained out to water your lawn. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Wow. What kind of house did your family move into? Boice: Well, originally we had a three-bedroom prefab. Prefabs come in three sizes and five colors. And a bunch of very ingenious kids on Halloween 1944 went out and stole the damn street signs. The buses coming back off of swing shift had no earthly idea where they were going. They wandered around town, because all the houses looked alike! [LAUGHTER] Then after a while—oh, let’s see, we moved in in August, and about the following spring—because we started out school at Sacajawea and then at Christmas vacation they changed us to Marcus Whitman. But up there on Longfitt, thereabouts, I was coming home from school and here sits the roof of a prefab right out in the middle of the street. Apparently, this guy was sleeping and a windstorm come along and picked up his whole roof and set it out in the middle of the street. Thereafter they had a crew of carpenters going around fastening the rooves of the prefabs down a little tighter. Franklin: Because at that time, right, they had flat rooves. Boice: Flat rooves. Franklin: Correct? That kind of overhung a bit, something that the wind could really easily— Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --grab ahold and pop off. Do you remember when they got the gabled rooves that they all have now? Boice: No, I don’t, because I was—I think after we left, but I wouldn’t bet heavy money on it. We moved off the prefab in ’45. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And into an A house on Swift. I don’t recall when they put the gabled rooves on. Franklin: Okay. So what did your mom do? Did she work at Hanford at all? Boice: No. Franklin: No? Boice: She was a stay-at-home mom. Franklin: Stay-at-home mom? Boice: It was such an interesting place. The buses ran every 30 minutes. No charge, just go out and get on the bus. One of my main jobs was—because there was no mail delivery, everybody in Richland got their mail general delivery. So I’d take the bus, go downtown, get off at the post office, check the mail, go down to the grocery store—and there was only one—that was a brief period, but then there was only one grocery store at that time. And that’s where that ski rental shop is—kayak rental shop on the corner of Lee and GW? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That was the grocery store. The one and only. Shortly thereafter, Safeway opened up on the corner of—southwest corner of Lee and Jadwin. So things picked up. And then there was—they come up with the community center grocery store—whatever you want to call them. There was one at Thayer and Williams, which was the Groceteria. Garmo’s was out there on Stevens and Jadwin—no, Symons and something-or-other. The south end of town was—oh, nuts. He was the one that survived—Campbell’s. Campbell’s grocery store. He specialized in fresh fruit and stuff, and of the whole pile of them, he was the one that really come out of it in good shape. But the fourth one is now the school office, up there by Marcus Whitman. That was a grocery store. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But you go down, you do your post office work, and then you go and get your groceries, and if you’re lucky you get ten cents. Next bus home. You know where the Knights of Columbus Hall is out on the bypass? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That used to be—originally that was the Richland post office. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: It’s up there at Knight and GW, I think. There wasn’t a whole bunch of shopping centers. The Richland Theater was in existence. The drug store next door to it was there. After a while, the big brown building, which was everything, at that time, when it opened up it was CC Anderson’s. Then there was the dime store, and, oh, we were hot and heavy then. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you tell me a little more about your dad’s job? What would a typical day or a typical week look like for someone who worked on the fire department? Boice: On the fire department, there is no such thing as typical. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Boice: It was wild. In the beginning, they opened up—they were on shifts. Like everything was on day shifts, swing shift, graveyard. In our neighborhood, after my brother was born, we moved down to Swift and McPherson. Dad had come into town by that time. If you go behind the Richland Theater, you look real close, there’s two B houses back there. One of them’s a real B house and the other one ain’t. You look at the B houses over here, and the other one that ain’t is over here. And you look real close at the driveways. That was the original fire station that the City of Richland had going. That was the fire station when Hanford came in. Then they built a fire station on Jadwin in conjunction with the housing building and a couple other things, right across from the 700 Area, which is what they wanted, was coverage on that 700 Area. So that was the downtown fire station. And when they opened that up, why, then Dad came up out of Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: He wasn’t too long there, and they opened one up Williams off of Thayer, in behind the Groceteria and a little service station up there with a small satellite fire station. Two trucks and one crew. Dad was there for years and years and years. Franklin: How long did your dad work for Hanford or the government here? Boice: Like I say, he came in in ’43 and retired in the early ‘70s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Rode her right on through. Franklin: So what did he do when the community transitioned in ’58? Boice: They bought him! Franklin: The City of Richland did? Boice: Yup, the City of Richland bought the outstanding time and he rolled right over. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So can you talk a little bit more about growing up here? You said you went to Marcus Whitman and then to—and then what other schools did you go to? Boice: Well, like I say, there was no shade. Franklin: Right. Boice: And very few radio stations. With a good shot you could get in Yakima, Spokane, and Walla Walla, and that was about it. So we sat around in the shade, and my mother read us stories. [LAUGHTER] One of them was a book we picked up in Walla Walla about Sacajawea. She read us the entire story of Sacajawea and the Shoshones and the Lewis and Clark Expedition, et cetera, et cetera. And in ’44, they opened up Sacajawea School. Now, as everybody does, they did their darnedest to convert us kids to saying Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah. It didn’t take. [LAUGHTER] Because there was already Sacajawea State Park and everybody was using the term Sacajawea. But Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah—they tried. They gave it their level best. It didn’t take. But the time that they were doing this, Miss Jesson was a teacher there was giving us the thumbnail sketch about Sacajawea. She did a pretty good job—well, you know, she told you what she knew. And she made mention of the fact that she was married to a trapper, but they didn’t know what his name or anything about him. I says, his name was Toussaint Charbonneau. He got her off a wolf man of the minute carriage for a white buffalo robe. My status went up. [LAUGHTER] And the teachers wanted to know where in the cat hair I learned that. Well, Mom read us the book. But I’ve always liked Sacajawea School. Just kind of a kinship. We went—in ’45, they opened up Marcus Whitman. We went there ’45 was all, because when they broke for the summer, we were over by—we moved. By the next fall we were over in the area where I could go to Sacajawea again. But we were going to Marcus Whitman when Roosevelt was shot—died. So that was the event of the time. You watched the transition of one President to another. The flag ceremony—the whole thing—it was interesting for a kid. Franklin: I bet. What do you remember about during the war years that kind of focus on secrecy and security? How did that affect your life and your family’s life? Boice: You didn’t talk to nobody about nothing! [LAUGHTER] I mean, that was just the words. You didn’t talk about—if somebody asks you what your dad does, you talk about something else. It was so interesting here in the last year, I think—time goes quicker now. A whole bunch of us from that neighborhood on Swift went to a funeral—this boy’s mother—well, yeah—Bill’s mother’s 100th birthday, after the funeral they had a sit-down dinner. I happened to sit down at the table with the whole kids of the old neighborhood. And we’re talking about all this stuff, and the secrecy, and the ones you watch out for—this girl over here. Yeah. She didn’t share the secrets with the neighbors when they were talking about who’s got butter on sale. They didn’t tell her anymore. She fried her food in butter. So no one would tell her where the butter sales were when it was available. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was there any mention of the work going on at Hanford at school that you can remember? Boice: The one thing of what was going on, and it wasn’t the work at Hanford, because nobody talked about that. But when the Japs were sending over the firebombs— Franklin: Yeah, the balloon bombs. Boice: Yes. We were told to write no letters, tell nobody, because they didn’t want it to get out how blinking effective they were. Franklin: Right. The fear of these bombs from the sky— Boice: They were hitting, and they were working. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: You guys are in the right position to find out. But there was a rumor going around that a balloon-loaded Jap had landed out there in the area and they caught him and bundled him up and carted him off before they did any business. Okay, la-di-da-di-da. There’s rumors about one thing and another. And four or five years ago, CNN or one of these, they were talking about the weather balloons. They showed the colored pictures taken out here at Hanford of the balloons landing in the BPA lines and burning up. [LAUGHTER] End of speech, end of story. [LAUGHTER] But I was surprised to find out that something had happened. There was no soldiers attached or anything else, but there was an incident. Franklin: Yeah, we’ve—there are a couple confirmed reports of—we actually did an oral history with a gentleman whose father had been a patrolman and had seen one of the balloons land and had to chase it down and didn’t realize right away that it was—had explosives attached to it. The others—there’s a couple reports of them touching down onsite. And there was a family that was killed in Idaho where they were picnicking and a balloon came down. Boice: Idaho or Oregon? Franklin: I think it was—oh, that’s right, maybe it was Oregon. Boice: K Falls. Franklin: Yes. Boice: You go to the museum in Klamath Falls had the—or when I went through it—I was working down there twenty years ago or so—they had a big display of the family that was picnicking and the kids went to prod on it, and it went off and killed a girl. Franklin: Yeah. Were there—when you were—so we’re still in the World War II era and we’ll definitely get to the Cold War in a bit—but were there any kind of—what do you remember about like emergency procedures in school? Was there anything special, kind of drills or something during World War II? Boice: You mean the duck-and-cover? Franklin: Yeah, that kind of stuff. Was there any duck-and-cover during World War II? Boice: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Of course—my kindergarten days—now, man. Lived across the street from the college there at Ellensburg, and firebombs were to be worried about. But I was covered. I had a bucket full of sand and a shovel, and it was there on the front porch. When the firebomb came through there, I was going to put my sand on it. So we were prepared. God help us if it landed any place else. [LAUGHTER] But the beginning of the war when I was a kid in Ellensburg was so funny, because we were living right across the street from the college and everything was just the standard college. And the war started, and immediately, there’s all these people running around here that can’t count. Hup, two, three, four. Hup, two, three, four. I wasn’t even in kindergarten, and I knew about my ones! [LAUGHTER] And there was—you go across the street and around the corner, and there was this one half basement room where I could stand there and watch the guys play shirts-and-skins basketball. And the next time I looked, here’s a skeleton of a single engine aircraft, and a guy instructing people on how to make dead stick landing. Now, of all the damned things for a four-year-old kid to remember, dead stick landings was what he was talking about. And they had this thing skeletonized where they could show the internal workings of all the aeronautics. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But in Richland—oh, yes. Duck-and-cover fire drills. But they never talked about nuclear, because it was yet to be discovered. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. So Ellensburg then quickly became inundated with—the state college there became a training area? Boice: Oh, yeah. Just that fast. Franklin: Wow. In your notes here, I also see you mentioned about the heavy military presence and the olive drab everywhere and the cops in Army uniforms. Boice: [LAUGHTER] It absolutely was. Richland was strictly OD. I think they only had one bucket of paint. But all the vehicles were olive drab. The buses were, on today’s standards, I’ll call them a three-quarter size school bus painted olive drab. The vehicles were anything they could scrounge up, because I remember two GIs in a ’37 Chev coupe, and I know today some farmer had taken the trunk out and made a pickup box out of it. But they scrounged this thing up someplace, painted it OD, and here’s the MPs running around in a ’37 Chev pickup. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: [LAUGHTER] A homemade pickup? Boice: Yeah. It was years later that I found out—Dad didn’t say anything about it, and he certainly knew—that it was simple, because the war was going on. Everything was prioritized. But they had unlimited supply of uniforms. So they put the cops in soldiers’ uniforms; the firemen were in Navy uniforms. The firemen stood out and were very easily recognizable, but you couldn’t tell the soldiers and the cops apart, because they all had the same stuff on. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. A couple oral histories we’ve done with people that were children in Richland, a couple of them mentioned their fathers had taken them onsite somewhat clandestinely. Did your father ever take you onsite into a secured area? Boice: No. Franklin: Did you ever get access to any of that some way? Boice: No, I did not go to any secured area. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was raised running in and out of fire stations. To this day, when I go through the door of a fire station, my hands go into my pockets. You’re allowed to touch nothing. Because you leave fingerprints. [LAUGHTER] It’s just a genuine reflex. Franklin: Yeah! So you said that you went to Sacajawea, then to Marcus Whitman then back to Sacajawea. Then where did you go to high school? Boice: We went through all of the—I’ll call it the school construction. They couldn’t build schools fast enough in Richland. Franklin: I bet. Boice: We had double shifts. Now they have these temporary quarters—whatever you call them. But we had hutments. Sacajawea had six hutments out there. They built the hutments, and then they went to double shifts. So you went to school at 8:00, and at noon they marched out, teacher and all, and our class marched in, and we went home at 4:30 or 5:00, something like that. So we went through all of that, and then in ’49, they opened Carmichael. A brand new junior high school, man, this is cool! And I was in the seventh grade in Carmichael and I are still the proud possessor of ASB cord 001, 1949, Carmichael Junior High School. The first one they ever gave out. [LAUGHTER] And that was neat, to have a real hard-built school. It was—oh, we had class. After three months, we moved to Kennewick. The Kennewick school system— Franklin: Your family did, or--? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Dad stayed in Richland, but they were selling off. And if you didn’t have priority, the houses went to the guy that was there first. And in that A house, we were in second, so we were not in line to buy the house. Franklin: Right. Boice: So, Dad got a piece of property in Kennewick and we moved to Kennewick. And what a school system mess. Franklin: Why? Boice: They were behind. They couldn’t get money quick enough. They couldn’t build stuff fast enough. They had the red brick building—forget what it was called. It had been a high school at one time, and they pressed it back into service. It was so overcrowded you couldn’t believe it. But they finally built the high school that’s there now. It opened in ’52, I believe. ’51—yeah, class of ’52 was the first one to graduate—’52 or ’53. Graduated from Erwin S. Black Senior High School. And it was Erwin S. Black Senior High School one year. Because he was the school superintendent, and they built the school—they named the school in his honor because he had gone to bat and made trips back and forth to Washington, DC to cash some money to use for the school system. Then they got in a shooting match with the Tri-City Herald. [LAUGHTER] And Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard got run out of town, and they chiseled his name off the front of the school. But for one year it was E.S. Black. Franklin: And then it just became Kennewick High School. Boice: It became Kennewick High School. Franklin: Can you talk a little bit more about this disagreement between Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard and the Tri-City Herald? Boice: It was several things. One of them, there was a book—and I can’t recall—Magruder? McGregor? Somebody. It was a history book, and it mentioned communism. And that was brought up and made a big deal. This was back in the McCarthy era. Franklin: Right. Boice: That was brought out. And there was a lot of talk—Black was a certified building inspector, and he inspected the construction of the high school. It was said by a lot of people that it wasn’t up to standards; that the concrete wasn’t what it should have been. And I don’t know what the specs were. I wasn’t into concrete work at that time. I have been later. But I know when we were hanging the benches in the ag shop, where you would put a concrete anchor in the wall ordinarily and it would hold, they didn’t there. And they had to through-bolt through the wall to get to things to hang. So there was—and transfer of equipment and stuff—this was swapped for that, and that was swapped for this—and I don’t remember that, and the only guy I know that did know has died. [LAUGHTER] But one of the kids that graduated from Erwin S. Black, one of the few that was in that class, worked with him off and on and was aware of what went on. Franklin: When you said that there was a book that mentioned communism, did it mention it in a favorable light, or did it just make a mention to communism? Boice: More or less, it just made a mention. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was on the—oh, we had the open house at the school, and I was one of the tour guides. Yeah, I showed them the book and what it had to say. And I don’t recall anything drastic. Franklin: So then did you graduate from Kennewick High School? Boice: No. [LAUGHTER] The military had a hell of a sale. Anybody that enlisted by the first of February got the Korean GI Bill of Rights. And those that enlisted afterwards didn’t. So I drug up in January and joined the Air Force. Franklin: Oh. Without graduating. Boice: Without graduating. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Boice: So I served my illustrious military career in a photo lab in Mountain Home, Idaho. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how long were you in the Air Force? Boice: Two years. Franklin: Two years, and then you were discharged? Boice: Yes, yup, yup. Franklin: When you were in school, you mentioned being in school during this McCarthy era, one of the real hot points of the Cold War. Can you talk a little bit about the civil defense procedures and kind of the general feeling of that time as it related to—because I imagine with Hanford so close, and now knowing what was being produced there, that would have been a likely target. It’s a major part of the nuclear weapons stockpile. So can you talk a little bit about that time and just the general feeling? Boice: Well, you knew what was going to happen—or what they said was gonna happen. It was the duck-and-cover thing. And we had drills. A lot of what they said what was gonna happen—now they talk about getting into water to modulate it. Then, it was one of the things that they didn’t want you to do. Because we had the irrigation ditch that was running right alongside of the schools. But then they didn’t want you to get into it. So, it’s changed. They had the civil defense procedures—Radiant Cleaners, they’re in Kennewick. They had panel delivery cleaner trucks. They were rigged for emergency ambulances. They had fold-down bunks in them; they could handle four people. [LAUGHTER] It was taken serious. Franklin: Did you feel any particular sense of worry, or did it not seem to really affect you, your daily life or your psychological— Boice: It never bothered me ‘til years afterwards. When they talked about the Green Run, where they turned a bunch of that stuff loose, just to see what it would do to the citizens and count the drift on it. The people that had—the down-winders, and the people that had the thyroid problems. My sister was one of the first rounds that went to court over that. Franklin: Really? Boice: Because she was—we moved into Richland. She had her third birthday in the prefab, when they were still practicing how to build this stuff. And then we moved in on a farm where the alfalfa grew, the cow ate it, gave them milk, and everything was recycled and nothing went over the fence. And so it bothered me, then, that they used us as guinea pigs. But the other hand, they really didn’t know what in the cat hair that they were doing in a lot of cases. The nuclear waste? You’ve heard about the radioactive rabbit turds. Franklin: I have. Boice: You have? Franklin: Yes, I have, but why don’t you mention that? Boice: I was working with Vitro out here—’72, I think it was. The radioactivity, of course, is settled on the sagebrush. And the rabbits went around eating the leaves, just leaving fat, dumb and happy, and concentrating everything into the rabbit turds. And they were contemplating taking the top six inches of about two or three sections and burying it. Only they couldn’t decide where they had to build the hole. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: When you—you mentioned just a minute ago that you were on a farm, and you had the cows that would have eaten the tainted alfalfa—was your milk ever tested? Or did anyone ever come and-- Boice: Nah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: test your—Were you ever tested for—or your family, anybody in your family, ever tested for radiation? Because I know that they, at one point, had those Whole Body Counters that they would test—some children in Pasco were tested through those machines? Boice: You ever been through a Whole Body Counter? Franklin: I have not been through a Whole Body Counter. Boice: Depending on where you’re at, there may or may not be a—they’re kind of a joke. Now, when I was working here at Vitro, we went through the Whole Body thing, and they were serious. I mean, before we got cleared out, we went through the chamber, and we were counted. I went to work in South Carolina. They—as far as I was concerned—were very sloppy with their radiation handling and their checking and their radiation monitoring. We had a hand-and-foot monitoring station where we was going in and out of. You stick your hands in and they check it, and your feet were there at the same time. Well, this one time, I come up pretty hot, so I found an RM. I says, that machine gave me a bad reading. Oh, he says, that machine’s no good anyway. Come around to this other one over here and we’ll check you out. Well, if the blinking thing’s no good, why in the cat hair are we using it?! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, just a second ago, you mentioned you were working for Vitro? Boice: Uh-huh. Franklin: What is or was Vitro? Boice: What was Vitro? Okay. Vitro Engineering—and I don’t know how many times the name changed hands. But these guys were the ones that laid out the City of Richland—laid out the Hanford Projects. These were the strictly insiders. There was pictures on a wall of my grade school buddy’s dad, who I remember being a surveyor in Richland there. And these guys—this has gone on forever, and they were a pretty dug-in organization. To the point that they were not really aware that there was a world outside the fence. They’d heard about it, but they weren’t too sure it existed. [LAUGHTER] But I ended up at Vitro, and we did the Tank Farms that they’re having problems with, the hot tanks? We were in on the modification of that farm. We surveyed in there quite a bit. Whenever they show the pictures on TV, they always show you the evaporation facility. They show you that same picture. Warren Wolfe and I—I say Warren and I—it’s a little—our crew brought that up out of the ground, and we modified the tank farm, and we laid out the construction on that building from the ground right through the top. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And I was very fortunate, because all my surveying experience to that point was with the railroads and pipelines and longline work. Construction surveying was new to me. And I got throwed in with an old boy that was good at it. [LAUGHTER] And I learned a bunch working with him. And rolled right over, later on, into Hanford, too. We got in on the end of that—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Hanford II? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, as--T-O-O. And which building was this that you and Warren Wolfe and your crew built? Boice: All I remember is the evaporation facility. Franklin: What was your specific job at Vitro? Were you a surveyor? Boice: I was a surveyor. I was an instrument man. You get in the hot zones—we got inside the Canyon Building on several different occasions. And you got suited up, and I was instructed very specifically and emphatically to touch nothing, because anything that got crapped up, they kept. And we couldn’t get the instruments crapped up. But that stuff was so hot that the paper—the Rite-in-the-Rain books have got a specific paper there that has pitch in it or something—it attracts radioactivity like a sponge. And when they kept the notes, then one of us would stay inside and the other guy would get out in the clean zone, and we’d have to transcribe all the notes, because that book was so hot that they wouldn’t let it out of the area. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: There was some weird stuff going on. Franklin: Any other— Boice: Yeah, but there’s some I ain’t gonna talk about. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We came so close to having a nuclear disaster, it wasn’t even funny. We were good. We were awful good. And we were fast. And we were set up out there on an offset, and Rosie the labor foreman come over. Somebody said you needed a shot here for a hole for a penetration into the tank. Man, we whipped that out and figured the pull and what it was gonna take. Swung over there, put a distance and an angle, drove the stake in the ground. I figured that Warren checked it, and away we went. We come back in a week or so, or a few days later, we were back in that same farm. And Rosie comes over there and he says, would you guys check that again? Because these guys was digging a hole there and they’re supposed to hit a tank. And we checked it. And I lied, and Warren swore to it. [LAUGHTER] We forgot we was on a ten-foot offset. So they’re digging clear to one side of this tank, and just good solid dirt. Had we been just half as screwed-up as we were, they would have gone right down the edge of that tank with a core drill. And we’d have had ooey-gooeys all over the place. They talked to us. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Kind of a happy accident, right? Boice: Yeah, we were—I’ll never forget Warren’s work. He’d come back with the boss and he says, name me one guy in this world ever got through this life being perfect. He says, always pissed me off, he’s a damned carpenter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So you went to—you joined the Air Force, you went to Idaho for two years. When you came back—or what did you do after that? Did you come back to Richland after? Boice: We were living in Kennewick. Franklin: Living in Kennewick. Boice: And I was working at the Washington Hardware Store. And this kid—we were working on cars in my buddy’s garage. And this guy comes through and he’s surveying for the Corps. And he talked that they were setting up a photogrammetry section. Well, heck, that’s what I was doing in the service. So, I beat feet over to Walla Walla to sign up to lay out photo mosaics. And they say, we haven’t got enough work for fulltime at that job. Are you a draftsman? No, I are not a draftsman. He says, would you take a job surveying? You bet. I became a surveyor. [LAUGHTER] And we worked from the mouth of the Deschutes River to Lewiston, Idaho. The first thing was the mouth of the Deschutes to McNary Dam—we mapped from the water level to the top of the bluffs by hand. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And then we went through, starting in ’58, and we inventoried the railroad. Now, when you inventory a railroad, we inventoried a railroad. Everything they possessed was put down. First, you go through and you measure and put stations—mark station markings on the rails. 80 miles of them. Then you go back and you reference everything the railroad’s got. Ties, spikes, tie plates, rails, joints, joint bars—if the fence moves, how far did it move, from what to what? If the rail changes, if there’s an isolation joint in there, you put that in. When you come to a switch, you measure everything that’s in the switch facility. You go—everything that that railroad has got. You become very, very familiar with railroads. [LAUGHTER] And then we went ahead, and we built railroads clear up to Lewistown. We handled a railroad layout real heavy. When they—are you familiar with the Marmes men? Franklin: Yes. Boice: Luck of the draw, I was on that. Because we were the—call it the resident survey crew in that area. Franklin: Oh. Boice: And we were babysitting construction. Make sure they got sticks out ahead of them, make sure that things are checked out behind them. They’re putting in a detour, why, check that out. They’re building a bridge, make sure it’s set up right, and check it out when they get done. So, first they call up and they say, there’s a guy down here at the mouth of the Palouse River thinks he hit something, and he wants an elevation on this cave, see where the water’s gonna come when they raise the water behind Lower Monumental, I believe. Franklin: Yeah, I think that sounds right. Boice: Is that the dam? So we went down there and run him in an elevation, painted it on the cave face. Happily on our way. Well, they hit pay dirt. [LAUGHTER] They dug up bones. So we were called back. They wanted—because the drillers were in there then doing sub-cell drilling of what’s down there. So we got to come in there and locate their holes so they know where what is. That was interesting. The whole thing. Now that the world has got into this Ice Age floods and stuff, I wish so heavily that I knew then what I know now. Because the layers that they went through were very definitely visible. This thing had been covered in various floods. But it was so interesting, the stuff that they found. Because it became an international incident. One of the coolest cats in the whole joint was Pono the Greek. And Pono run the sluice box. He had been all over the world. When the girls dug everything out, then they took the dirt to Pono, and he washed it down. Pono found thread of somebody’s sewing. Then they found the needle. And that to me was so cool. They had this needle that looked for all the world like a darning needle. How in the blazes they cut that eye in there! This was a really heads-up organization. [LAUGHTER] Interesting. Very interesting. Franklin: Yeah, that was a very significant archaeological find. Boice: I’ve got to go back some day and talk to that doctor. At an anniversary of something, we’re down here at Columbia Park, and he was talking and I showed up there with the historical society doing something-or-other. And I talked to him for about five minutes. He mentioned the fact that he wanted to see the guy that painted that elevation. I said, well, you’re looking at him. [LAUGHTER] It was—I got to go talk to him. Because one of the things in their report—they talked that the ditch was dug with a Cat. Now, I ain’t saying they’re wrong, because I didn’t see any digging when I was there. But just—as you’re going up and looking at a hole, and in those days we had looked at a bunch of holes—we were inspectors. They were going behind the soils guys. And it just to me had all the appearance of somebody that dug a ditch with a dragline. And I always figured it was a dragline in there, and somebody said it was a Cat. I don’t totally agree with him. But the bones were so interesting. They said that the one thing about the site was there had been somebody living on it forever. Just, the further down you went, the more primitive they became, ‘til you got past the layer of the Mazama ash, when Crater Lake blew its top. And they went past Mazama ash and suddenly things looked pretty sophisticated. That’s where the needle came from and a few other things. It was neat. I’d have liked to spend more time with them. Franklin: Yeah. I’m sure you heard about the dam failing and the site flooding after they—because they created the protective dam around the shelter, and that failed and let water in. Boice: It didn’t fail! The SOB was never built to hold! When they brought us down there to check these drill holes out, the drillers—we had other stuff to do that morning, and we didn’t get down there until 10:00. The driller had a half-a-dozen holes in. I’m talking to this old driller, and he says, they ain’t never gonna keep water out of that thing, because there’s a layer of palm wood down there and it’s gonna leak like a sieve. But they did it anyway. And we’re down there checking on settlement pins and a whole bunch of other stuff when the water’s coming up. But we’re all on the radio, and it’s like a big one-party line—you can hear what’s going on no matter where. And they’re putting in pumps, and the more pumps they put in, the more water they sprayed out, but noting changed. [LAUGHTER] So it’s a lovely fishing pond. But interesting: it was shortly thereafter that I quit the corps and went to Alaska. Within a year-and-a-half, two years, I’m up there doing the same thing, only instead of spotting holes in the ground, we’re spotting oil wells. And sitting in a warm-up shack, talking to a driller, and he made mention of the fact that they had spudded oil wells. Now, when they spud an oil well, they get in there with an oversized auger, like you’re setting telephone poles. And they go down there through the mud and the blood and the crud ‘til they get to solid rock. And then they bring in the drills. And he says, we have yet to spud a well here that we didn’t get palm wood. And that has always sat with me. Now, when they’re talking about global warming—if there has been palm trees growing at the mouth of the Palouse River, and palm trees growing at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, it’s been a lot warmer than people are willing to talk about. [LAUGHTER] Just boggles my mind that there is palm wood in Alaska as well as Marmes Rockshelter. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So you were—Marmes, then Alaska. When did you come to work for Vitro at Hanford? Boice: That was a pretty short season. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: At Hanford, or in Alaska? Boice: At Vitro. Oh, at Alaska I worked for various contractors. But Vitro—we didn’t philosophically match. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. Boice: Their minds were all inside the fence. And I’m too antagonistic. [LAUGHTER] If we had a problem—thou shalt not speak bad of Vitro. And we’re laying out penetrations on top of a tank. And they’re all done. Radius and angle—which radius is—and they had them at different stages there, and other people had been doing them. And this tank had been there for quite a—not quite a while, but every once in a while someone would come in and set some more holes, set some more holes. Well, they didn’t continue their circle around—nobody closed the circle. So by the time we get there ‘til the end, we have to figure out by adding up each and every hole all the way around the circle at every different radius to get the dimensions to where we’re at. Where if the guy had closed out his circle, you could have backed him out and been out of there in about a tenth the time. So I happened to make the statement, I said, Vitro drafting strikes again. And I was a marked man. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long in total, then, did you work out on the Hanford site? Boice: Well, in ’56-’57, or ’57-’58, they were doing a lot of military work out there. And we did the roads up Rattlesnake—was in on that. The road up Saddle Mountain. A lot of RADAR sites. You’re aware of the Nike sites on— Franklin: Yup. Boice: --the north side of the river over there? Franklin: Yup. Boice: Been there, done that. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So—that wasn’t for Vitro, was that when you were with— Boice: That was the Corps. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And we also did a lot of work up at Moses Lake. Franklin: Okay. Boice: All the runway extensions up there, we were in on. They throwed us in the clink. They did not like our very presence. Franklin: Why? Boice: Apparently Moses Lake had two different structures. There was the Strategic Air Command structure up there, and there was the Military Air Transport Service. I didn’t know the difference. Les was—we were doing some mapping work. And the three of us were just gonna run some levels out to the next site we were gonna work at. And we took off the BM—benchmark—at the control tower. And we get about two turns out across the flight line there. And a bunch of guys come out, like a changing of the guard or something. Two or three of them stopped to talk to Kirby and George. The other five come out along, and they walked, just formed a circle around me, and they wanted to know if I wanted to go with them. They had submachine guns and a whole bunch of other stuff, and I said, heck, there’s nothing I’d rather do! [LAUGHTER] So they called up Walla Walla and they verified our existence. Then we had to go through security and get badges to—and we’d been working on that thing off-and-on for months. But we just hadn’t stepped in the right zone. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They were just kind of waiting for you, then, to— Boice: Just different—different bunch of stuff. Franklin: Right. When you were in school in Kennewick, so after the—or even just after the word was out about the Hanford site, after August 6th, 1945, when you were in school, did they teach anything about Hanford history? Was it— Boice: Go back to August 6th. Franklin: Okay. Boice: What a day. [EMOTIONAL] What a wonderful day! I’d been down at the Village Theater—now the Richland Theater. I don’t even remember what was playing. But we came out, [EMOTIONAL] and the bells were ringing. The church down there, they were ringing their bells. And everybody was whooping it up—the war was over! And I’ll never forget, some gal in there alongside the street, she had half a dozen kids with garbage can lids and a parade going, and they’re banging and clanging. And the festivities that the war was over. And then we went back and they came out with the thing and Truman said, It’s the Atomic Bomb, and that’s what we’ve been building. And Mom went over and talked to the lady next door. She mentioned the U-235. And the gal says, they didn’t talk about that, did they? And she’d been keeping files, and her husband had been working on it. And neither of them would ever admit that they knew what the other one was doing. It was that tight. And the security in Richland. The FBI knew everybody in town, because it was not uncommon—it was a regular thing that they would come around and they would talk to you, and ask about him. And then they’d go talk to him and ask about you. It was just—it was what was going on. We didn’t know why. Well, after that—yeah, after it came out what was going on out there, then we knew what was there. But until Truman come out and said, here’s what was going on, we didn’t know. Franklin: What about V-J Day? Was that a separate kind of a big celebration? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Was that as big as the news of the bomb drop? Or was the bomb drop more of a pivotal moment here in the— Boice: Well, the V-J Day, the end of the war, was the big day. That’s the celebration that I’ll never forget. Franklin: Can you talk about it? Boice: June—you heard about Harry Truman, didn’t you? When he come out to Hanford? Franklin: No. Boice: [LAUGHTER] The head of security was a guy by the name of McHale. And Dad worked pretty close with him with the fire department because everything was safety and security and if you had a problem, see McHale. Now, the guy had taken—he was pretty much high up in intelligence—but he had assumed the position of a first sergeant. And Sarge McHale was the guy. No matter what happened, Sarge McHale. Harry Truman did a fantastic job, and made his reputation just going from plant to plant—the Truman Investigating Committee, cutting down waste. And I guess he did a heck of a job. But he come out to Hanford and demanded to be let in. Franklin: Sorry, was this when he was Vice President or President? Boice: He was a senator! Franklin: Senator—Senator Harry Truman. Okay. Boice: And he comes there and demands to be let in. And of course, the guard says, McHale! And McHale comes over there and meets him head-on. He says, I’m Senator Truman, and I demand to be let in. McHale says, I don’t give a damn if you’re President of the United States; you ain’t coming in here. And he didn’t. Well, years later, and I believe it was when they were dedicating the Elks Club in Pasco, Truman was back up in this area. And he was President. And he come out to Hanford and he looked up McHale. And he said, uh-huh, you son of a bitch, you didn’t think I’d make ‘er, did ya? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s a great story. [LAUGHTER] But thank you. So after the war was over, was what went on at Hanford taught in school? Was there mention of the work at Hanford that built the bomb? Was that part of the curriculum here in town? Boice: The local lore. Franklin: The local lore, but nothing in the school at all? Boice: Not that I recall. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Everything was—there was a terrific amount of pride. The Atomic City, the atomic this, the atomic that. The first barber shop quartet come to town, when GE left—no, DuPont left, GE come in, four guys come in from Schenectady, New York with a barber shop quartet. First ones I ever saw. And they were the Atomic City Four. And the next one were the Nuclear Notes. [LAUGHTER] But there was an atomic pride, all over the area. Then there was the people that thought we should be ashamed of it. That we had built this device that killed a whole bunch of people. Franklin: Now, were these people in the community? Or people outside? Boice: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Franklin: And this was right at the time— Boice: Oh, no, no, no. This is-- Franklin: Later? Boice: Last week? [LAUGHTER] Last few years ago, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I got my—I’m still behind Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Screwed up and all. Back to Vitro for a little bit. Like I say, they were—the organization that literally purchased and built the city of Richland—now, at that time I was flying, and I was flying out of the Richland airport. And there was an old geezer out there called Norm. Norm flew the bench. He was always on the bench out in front of the airport, there. And if somebody just going up to burn up some hours or play, why, Norm was willing to go along. I saw Norm and I hauled him around and then I went back to work for Vitro. And Pritchard brought this guy through—it was Norm! Norm had been the head of real estate when the entire city of Richland and the whole Hanford Project was bought. He was in charge of it. And he retired and trained his successor, who died. And he trained the next guy, who died. So they had Norm on a retainer. Just to ride dirt on real estate. Quite an interesting character! Franklin: Yeah, I bet. I think I’d kind of like to return about something we were just talking about a minute ago, where you were talking about people that—especially in the later years that have been critical of Hanford. I’d like to get more of your feelings on that. On how you feel about that, or kind of what part of their argument or their viewpoint that you don’t agree with. Boice: They were talking about—well, first there was the Richland High School and their bomb insignia. It was felt that they were making a big deal or prideful about this terrible event. And I always go back to a group from Japan that came over and were very critical of Richland for the same thing. And the gentleman who was interviewing them or was talking to them, when they got done, informed them in no uncertain terms, that we were invited very unceremoniously into that war, and we’re sorry if you didn’t like the way we ended it. [LAUGHTER] You get to researching, I’d like to bring up, why didn’t they drop the bomb on Tokyo? Because there was nothing left on Tokyo to injure. If you read about Curt LeMay and the Strategic Air Command and the bombing of Japan, he had eliminated that thing down to—the B-29 was supposed to be a high altitude bomber. And it wasn’t as great at it as it was advertised to be. But they had eliminated the defenses. And they made the B-29 into a low-level trucking company, and they were just hauling stuff over and unloading it. And the firebombing of Tokyo—the movies they showed us in the Air Force was something to behold. I mean, they—it was so much worse than what happened at Nagasaki or Hiroshima, either one. He was told to save two or three targets—clean targets. And when they come over there with the bombs, then they used these clean targets and saw what they could do. Of the four devices—the four nuclear devices, we used—was it four or three in World War II? Franklin: Are you referring to— Boice: All but one of them came from Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: The first one at Los Alamos was plutonium. And then Hiroshima was Oak Ridge. Franklin: Yup. Boice: And then Nagasaki was plutonium. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: But there’s those that—and there were at the time, there was a big discussion on, should we demonstrate to them what this thing could do? And the big argument was, what if it doesn’t do? What if you drop it and it don’t do nothing? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Interesting. Can you speak to—or do you remember anything about the Civil Rights era in the Tri-Cities? Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: There were reports of—you know, it’s known that Kennewick was kind of a sun-down town, and that many minorities were forced to live in East Pasco. And that during the war— [NEW CLIP] Franklin: There had been a sizable African American population at Hanford, but that after the war many of them left. So I was wondering if you could speak to the Civil Rights action you might have seen or you might have observed or anything in the Tri-Cities? Boice: Well, I was up in Lewiston when their civil rights march come through. But it was well-advertised. People knew what was gonna happen. And I was at the hardware store, and there’s a black cement finisher I’d worked with building houses in Pasco. I says, Leroy! You gonna come march on Kennewick? He said, [AFFECTED DIALECT] shee-it. I wantsta live in Kennewick just about as bad as you wantsta live in East Pasco. [LAUGHTER] They had a march on Kennewick—a bunch of people that—I am told, because I was living in Lewiston, and I was in Lewiston at the time. But there’s a group out of Seattle and a group out of Portland come up to Pasco, and they marched across the bridge. They marched down Avenue C, up Washington Street, down Kennewick Avenue. And Kennewick yawned. Nobody particularly cared. They got to the Methodist church, and the groups come out and says, you look hot. Come on in and have some lemonade. They sat down at the church, had lemonade and went home. And that was the civil rights march in Kennewick. But there is—when I was there growing up, there were no blacks in Kennewick. There were blacks in Pasco, and there were no blacks in Richland. With the exception—the guy that run the shoeshine parlor at Ganzel’s barbershop lived in the basement, and they tell me that there was two black porters at the Hanford House. And that was the total black population of Richland. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But they were not welcome in Kennewick. It wasn’t that big a deal when I was walking down Kennewick Avenue when a couple of black guys—they were bums, hobos—come walking down Main Street, you might as well say. And a cop pulled up and says, the railroad tracks are two blocks down that way. They go east and west. Either one will get you out of town. And they went to the railroad track. I always figured that the blacks wanted to move to Kennewick because they couldn’t stand to live next to the blacks in Pasco. [LAUGHTER] And if you want to get right down to it, well, all that hooping and hollering they do right now, you go down to Fayette, Mississippi, which is 98.645% black, and all the blacks in Mississippi can live in Fayette and nobody cares. Go down to Van Horn, Texas, which is all Mexicans, and they can all live in Van Horn, Texas, and nobody cares. But you let half a dozen white guys go up in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and they just have yourself a storm. Why, these are a bunch of white separatists! If everybody else can live together, why can’t the whites? Franklin: Interesting. Some might say they were kind of starting a separatist movement up there, I think—claiming their own territory, and— Boice: So what? Franklin: Well, living together communally is often different from claiming that you don’t—aren’t subject to the law, the jurisdiction of the United States. Boice: Nobody said that they weren’t subject to the law. Franklin: Well-- Boice: They kept trying to integrate Prudhoe, but he kept getting cold and going home. Franklin: Oh, in Alaska? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Yeah. Boice: They had a heck of a time keeping Prudhoe integrated. Because them black people do not like cold weather! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I don’t think a lot of people like cold weather. Boice: It was a big joke when we went down south there, to work at Savannah River. Because—hell, we’d come out of here and it was Thanksgiving. It was cold. We got down there, of course, if you’re traveling you’re gonna get nightshift. We left having the cold weather here at night down there. And I says, that’s okay, you’ll get yours come summertime when it heats up. But surprisingly—and I was really surprised that they didn’t take the hot weather any better than we did. I mean, it was miserably hot, but they were just as big a problem as a rest of us. Franklin: I imagine it’s quite a bit more humid down there, though, with the—when it gets hot, you know. Because the heat with the humidity is— Boice: Yeah, it is. Franklin: --much worse than the dry heat. Boice: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Or any question I haven’t asked you that you think I should— Boice: I don’t know what it would be. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, we’ve really gone—really jumped all over the place. It’s been great. Anyone else have any questions? Hungate: No, the only question—you said you’d done some work with the railroad. What railroad? Boice: Name one. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: All railroads? Union Pacific, all the different--? Boice: Yes. Right now they’re talking about the oil trains, and their problems with them tipping over? I wonder how long it’s gonna take them to get to the problem. In the beginning, railroads were 39-foot rails bolted together. Measured mile after mile after mile of it. Then in about, oh, the middle ‘60s—’67, thereabouts, ’66—when they were putting in the SP&S, that’s now the BN—the Burlington Northern on the Washington side. They went with quarter-mile steel. And the first question that we had as surveyors—because you’re constantly working with the expansion and contraction of steel—was how are they going to control that in long rails? Because if you’re working on railroads very long, first thing you realize is do not sit on the joints in a hot day. You get your butt pinched! [LAUGHTER] When those tracks expand. So we brought this up and the first thing they told us was, well, they’ve got special steel and it’s only going to expand sideways. Well, that story lasted about as long as it took when they started putting it together. Because when they started—they’d set up a factory down here, if you’ll call it that. Brought in 39-foot un-punched rail, and just rolled her off, welded her together and ground down the joints and put her in quarter-mile sections. They were very particular when they put it in at the temperature that they laid that down on, where before—you know what a creeper is? Okay, it’s a kind of a hairpin device that you put over the rail so that it will slide less. But in the old days, the 39-foot rail very seldom saw any creepers. When they put that quarter-mile steel together, you saw a lot of creepers. Now they have gone to ribbon rail. They welded the quarter-mile steel together. You drive down to Portland, and you look at that rail, and you’re gonna go a long ways before you see a joint. There at Quinton and Washman’s dip—which don’t mean a thing to you guys—[LAUGHTER] about a mile post from 120-whatever, they have got a creeper on each—alongside of each and every tie. I mean, they were using creepers like they were going out of style. To me, the expansion’s the thing that they got to worry about, but then they should have figured this out because they’re running it. But it’s a factor. You got to factor it in when you’re doing a pipeline, when you’re doing a railroad. When we were doing the pipeline, Maurice Smith of British Petroleum, who was the head pipeline engineer, I had lunch with him. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t like we sit down at a specified lunch—he dropped in at the chow hall I was eating and sat down at our table. So we got to talking about it. And that was the question I brought up, was how are you going to handle the expansion in the steel? And he says—he admitted it was a heck of a problem. And that you got to run as many Ss as you can so that it’ll take up and accordion itself. And when you’ve got a long straight stretch, it’s gonna give you problems. [LAUGHTER] Because it’s gonna go someplace. And that’s the thing that—after they started the quarter-mile steel, a couple of years later, we had a hot summer. The article in the Tri-City Herald called it the long, hot summer, where we had over 90 days of over 90-degree weather. But they were cutting chunks out of that railroad to keep her on the road bed. And at that time, when the SP&S was having these problems, the UP was laughing at them. They said, we tried this stuff in Wyoming. It didn’t work. And they’re using 39-foot stuff, and it was just whistling down the road. But now I see that they’re using the ribbon rail like everybody else. I can’t see how it’s gonna work, but the they’re doing it. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t my role! [LAUGHTER] The other one was the Camas Prairie. And that starts out, oh, about ten miles above Ice Harbor Dam, thereabouts, breaks loose, and goes clear up past Lewiston, up into Grangeville, Idaho. That’s a crazy little river. Franklin: That’s the one that they filmed that Charles Bronson movie. Boice: Breakheart Pass? Franklin: Breakheart Pass, yeah. Boice: Yeah, that was done up there. You get into railroad history—this area is knee-deep in it. Vollard was the great character in that. He started out with a little portage railroad around Idaho Falls and that area. And then he got the Walla Walla line—I call it the WWWWW&WWW line—Walla Walla, Waitsburg, Washtucna and Washington Wail Woad—which was a money maker. But he ended up getting a lineup from Portland out here. And then when they started building the Northern Pacific, they were building from both ends, and he was hauling Northern Pacific rail over his tracks and taking it out in railroad stock. By the time they got connected over in Montana, he owned a sizable chunk of the railroad. [LAUGHTER] And it was—you get into that railroad history, and it’s just takeover checkers. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much, George. Boice: Okay! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It was a pleasure talking to you. And, yeah, thanks for coming in today. Boice: All righty. Write if you find work! [LAUGHTER] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:46:59 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area Vitro Engineering Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1972- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Boice Description An account of the resource George Boice moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. He began working on the Hanford Site in 1972. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/15/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-08-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Ellensburg (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 700 Area Cat Cold War Construction Dam DuPont FBI Hanford Kennewick Los Alamos Mountain Park River Savannah River School Street Tank Farm Tank Farms Theater Trailer War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F70ac0c66d17d44c6ffd2e0bff8f3fd56.JPG 759d274f2858d770022f62634d4204c9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1c015193569a3d3863bf1e37ebc9004f.mp4 dc9878daf96d5562e516329a80d1d8ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linda Davis Location The location of the interview Washington State University, Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Yup. Tom Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin, and I am conducting an interview with Linda Davis on May 26th 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking to Linda Davis about her experiences growing up in Richland, and her father’s experiences coming to work on the Hanford site. So, Linda, let’s start at the beginning. Why don’t you—you were mentioning earlier, with some of those items you brought which we’ll view later—you were showing us pictures of growing up and your father’s photo when he came here. So I guess why don’t we start with your father coming here. Linda Davis: My dad had been working in Kansas on I think it was a CCC project. And it came to an end. And they were told very little. Go to Washington. They’re like, right. [LAUGHTER] But my parents had always wanted to get the heck out of Kansas, so they found that this was their escape. And it was during the Depression, so jobs were tough. My dad came out. He was supposed to be coming out with a bunch of friends, and my brother got sick, so he ended up coming out later. He had to—he hopped box cars to get here! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow! Davis: He rode the rails and hitchhiked. And he got here a few weeks after his friends—a couple weeks after his friends did. They all got the management positions, and he got to be Joe Blow. [LAUGHTER] But he came out in February, March of ’43. He had been working cement. They sent him out with some other guys. They drove all over the whole reservation looking for the right rocks and gravel and sand to make the cement to start pouring B Reactor footings. After he did that, he was there when they poured the footings and that was always one of his—he was always very proud that he was there when they did the footings. Briefly, he was sent over to the extrusion and he was one of the first ones to actually run the machine to extrude the plutonium. Then after a short term there, he went back to B Reactor and became a nuclear operator until he retired. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And he was first here in a tent. Franklin: Okay. Davis: They supplied these big tents with a stove in the corner. And he says those really weren’t that bad. Then they, quote, moved him to barracks. And he says, those were the pits. They had gaps in the wood. There was just one layer of wood and gaps. So you learned really early on—you woke up in the morning, you shook your head, you wiped your eyes off, because you’re either removing snow or sand. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: And he says when he got here off the train, he says, there was as many people getting on the train to leave. And he says, the sands would come in and people were missing their families, and they were leaving in droves. My mom and the kids did not come until fall of ’43. There was no housing at that point in time. They went and lived in Yakima and my mom got a job and dad would commute on his long changes to Yakima to go visit the family. The rest of the time, he’d go stay in the barracks. And when he first got here with some of his friends, they had long lines for the showers. They were like, oh, we don’t want to wait in these stupid shower lines, we’re in a hurry. So him and his friends went—they’re from Kansas, streams there are shallow and warm. They went, there’s this great big river, so they ran down and jumped in the river. And jumped right back out! [LAUGHTER] He said it was so cold! They went and stood in line after that. Franklin: That’s a great story. Davis: And my dad played poker and he was well known for his poker playing here. We thought he used to—was just bragging, until when he died and people were coming in and they were going, wow, was he one wicked poker player. They used to be able to play poker on the buses. Franklin: Really? Davis: Yeah, you know, an hour ride, they had these little tables they’d set up towards the back and they played poker. Franklin: Wow. Davis: He could earn almost as much money playing poker as he could working. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s great. So how long was it before your mother and—so you weren’t born yet at the time. Davis: No! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So how long was it before your mother and the rest of your family were able to move to the Tri-Cities? Davis: They stayed in Yakima for about a year and a half. And then they moved—their first house was a A house on MacPherson, which was just finished and they ended up having to go to a hotel the first night, because it was freshly painted, and it made them all sick because it was still wet. [LAUGHTER] They were kind of unusual because they had their own furniture that they had brought from Kansas. Most people came and they had—everybody had the same bed, dresser, everything was supplied. But they had a lot of their own furniture that they brought from Kansas. So they would have been here—let’s see, he came out in ’43, ’44—early ’45 is when they got their first house-- Franklin: Wow. Davis: --in the Tri-Cities. During that time, Dad had commuted back and forth. Franklin: Wow. And you said that your mom was working in Yakima. What kind of work was she doing? Davis: She was a receptionist in a doctor’s office. Franklin: Okay. Davis: She was telling me—oh, just a few years ago, she was telling me that she was working, and people had been displaced and all the, quote, riffraff was coming in, and people looked really down on the people like them who were coming in. She was working in a doctor’s office, so nobody really thought about it, so they were a lot of times just talking, and some ladies got real snippy about, well, you got all this riffraff coming in and these lowlifes and stuff. And she just looked up and said, oh, well I’m one of those. [LAUGHTER] But they were really looked down on, because people didn’t know why they had been displaced. And they didn’t know why all these people were coming from all over the country. Franklin: Right, because they hadn’t— Davis: Nobody was allowed to know anything. So there was a lot of anger, and a lot of looking down their noses at people that had come into the Hanford Project. Franklin: Do you think maybe some class conflict? Or maybe people they had perceived as Dust Bowl type people--? Davis: Dust Bowl type people, because a lot of them came—Kansas, Oklahoma supplied a lot of the workers out here, because the word had gotten around, go to Washington, go to Washington. They didn’t know why, just go to Washington, you’ll find a job. You’ve got crummy farming, a lot of them just packed up and left. And they showed up. Then the, quote, natives of the area who had felt that they had been here for a significant amount of time really did look down on all these strangers coming in. It was—they would look like refugees to them. Because a lot of them came with homemade trailers and, literally their own tents if they couldn’t find a place to live. Franklin: And they hopped boxcars. Davis: And they hopped boxcars to get here! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So, earlier you mentioned that your family had lived in a lot of different houses early on or kind of gone all over. So can you talk about that? Those early years of being in Richland. Davis: You were assigned houses by what kind of job you had and how many children you had. You could apply to get a different house. And for all sorts of different reasons—my mother liked to move, I think, because a lot of it—she always liked to move. And Dad went along with it. They lived in ranch houses, F houses, A houses—they sneakily got into an H house, which they didn’t qualify for. You couldn’t—weren’t supposed to get into any housing unless it’s written out by the government that you could. They traded with somebody who wanted something—they wanted like the A house. They were in an H house and Mom and Dad said, oh, we’d like the H. So they traded without telling the government. Franklin: Ooh. Davis: That lasted six months. [LAUGHTER] Then they had to move again. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So the H houses were bigger then? I’m not quite up on all of the— Davis: They have a basement; they have one floor. They were probably better made. They were nicer houses than like the A. But the one people were having more kids or something. I can’t remember why they wanted to change. But Mom and Dad sneakily did it, then they sneakily had to slink out [LAUGHTER] when they were told they had to leave. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, one thing I’ve heard around here is that basements in those early years were pretty rare. Davis: What basements you had, like in the A houses, B houses, F houses, they were dirt. I’ve been in them when they hadn’t been changed yet. It’s basically a dirt floor, you walk down the stairs and then you’re there. Then there’s like this raised cement block area. Well, that’s where they’d dump the coal into. They would come with these trucks and dump the coal in. You just had enough room to go down there and shovel coal. They were pretty gross. [LAUGHTER] But I remember Mom and Dad, though, said everything was supplied. You had no utilities, they brought your coal—you had to call and ask for a lightbulb to be changed. You were not allowed to do it yourself. [LAUGHTER] Totally government. Franklin: Yeah, that’s a lot like here. You have to put in a facilities request to do that. Davis: Yeah, well, they had to—she goes, a lightbulb? Like, we can’t change your own? Oh, no. But she says they were really Johnny-on-the-spot. Franklin: Really? Davis: Yeah. They’d call and say, you know, lightbulb in the bathroom burned out. Oh! We’ll be right there! Franklin: Wow, so it would have been a whole department of people. Davis: There was a whole department of people who were doing that. If you were not working at Hanford or what they called support, like supplying the oil and changing the lightbulbs, a grocery store, pharmacist or something, you were not allowed to live here. Franklin: Right. Davis: And if you were, like, married and your husband—one of their friends that happened—dropped dead of a heart attack, she was given 48 hours to leave with her kids. They were kind of severe at times. But it was super safe. Kids could run and play. If your kid got in trouble, you could lose your job. That was—I remember my dad always holding that over my brothers. [LAUGHTER] If you get in trouble, I can lose my job and we’ll have to leave. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So kids were good; they didn’t have a choice. If you had a kid who became a juvenile delinquent, then you could lose your job and given 24 hours to leave town. Franklin: Did you know of any incidences of that happening? Davis: My parents talked about it, but I didn’t have names or—you know. Just somebody that they knew, their kids had been a real pain—and he ended up I think keeping his job, but he had to move to Kennewick. He couldn’t stay in government. He managed to beg and plead and keep his job, but he had to leave town. Franklin: So they were not only kind of controlled the work site, but they also really controlled the fabric of the community as well. Davis: To the point where they had—after leaving Richland, and living elsewhere and now in Kennewick, you realize the layers are like military layers. And it’s taken a long time for that to kind of break down. You had your echelons, just like in the military. They even went so far as to tell people, you are in this job and you’re in this job, and you’re not supposed to communicate. They may have grown up together in some Podunk place in the Midwest, known each other since childhood, but, all of the sudden, oh, you’re not supposed to talk to each other? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, so kind of like that difference between commissioned officers— Davis: And a non-com. Franklin: Non-com. Davis: Yeah. Oh, you’re more of a commissioned, you’re too high up and you can’t talk to the lower echelon. Franklin: Right, scientists don’t talk to janitors and so forth. Davis: Yeah. Franklin: That’s really interesting. Did your mom work after— Davis: Yes, she worked at Dr. Ellner’s office, urologist here in town. She worked there for—I don’t know—from the time I was about nine, eight—I guess I was about eight when she started working there. So that would have been ’62. Franklin: Okay. And so then you would be born in ’54. Davis: Mm-hmm. Franklin: ’54. Okay. Davis: Part of that big baby boom. Franklin: Yeah. And how many siblings do you have? Davis: Three. Franklin: Okay. And were any of them—did any of them move to Richland from—so your parents came, your father came out in ’43, and then your family came out in the fall. When were your siblings born? Davis: They were born all in Kansas. Franklin: Okay. Davis: And so they were born in ’37, ’40, and ’41. Franklin: So you’re the real baby of the bunch. Davis: Oh, yeah. I was the surprise. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. I think we all are in some way. Davis: Oh, I was—my mom was 41, so yeah, I was a shock. Franklin: Wow, yeah, that is quite a surprise. So tell me—then you would have been born then when Richland was still a government town. Davis: Right. Franklin: So tell me about growing up, like maybe from your earliest memories on. What was it like to—do you have any early memories of before—while Richland was still a government town? Davis: Yeah, I have a lot of memories from really early. My brother and I seem to both have the brains from early, early. The other two go, I don’t remember anything then. [LAUGHTER] They don’t really remember anything until after they’re five! One of the things that always struck me was, as a kid, driving through town and they had that asbestos siding that you had a green house or this dark reddish house. They all kind of looked the same. I know my sister one time accidentally ended up in the wrong house after school. And one of Mom’s best friends came in and found some guy sleeping in her bed. He was on leave from the Army and he had gotten in the wrong house. But they all looked the same. And people had the same furniture. Franklin: Right. Davis: So my sister went in and says, like, the living room furniture, I think, was all the same. And she says, she came home, put her papers down and then went out and played. Then came back later and went, Mom keeps moving the furniture! [LAUGHTER] She says she has no idea which house she went into. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, they had basically—I remember the green and the red. There might have been—and then there was some blue. And then they had like a cream color with them. So like the A houses would have been light colored on the top and then the red on the bottom. Or cream and—there was like three choices. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. It’s like the Model T. You can get it in black or black. Davis: Right. Yeah, this was—and you didn’t have a choice what color it was. And I guess when they first moved in, besides the paint being wet, they literally handed them a ten-pound bag of grass seed and said, plant your yard! Have fun! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s great. So, how about any memories that stand out from your early childhood or early life in Richland? I remember, earlier you mentioned that before we started taping, that your family had bought one of the first commercially available houses. Davis: Spec home. Franklin: Spec home. What year was that? Davis: 1960. Franklin: Okay, so you would have been about six years old then. Davis: Right. That was just before I was six, yeah. Franklin: And what was that like, to be in one of these? Davis: You— Franklin: New, new, new homes. Davis: Because of the class thing going on, I was not considered—and then shortly after they started building this North Richland area—I always felt like I didn’t fit in. I didn’t fit in with the kids in the, quote, government houses. Franklin: Okay. Davis: My house was basically a ranch house. We had hardwood floors instead of tiles. And we had a one-car garage, ooh, ahh. [LAUGHTER] But it really wasn’t—it was just a three-bedroom ranch. One bathroom and a one-car garage. And then all the scientists and the people making more money and the doctors started building into North Richland. And I didn’t fit in with them, either, because they went, oh, you’re in that little house. It was kind of like feeling like you didn’t fit in anywhere. Because I wasn’t in a government house, and a lot of the government houses were way bigger than the house we were in. Franklin: Huh. Davis: But I remember saying—one of the first memories in that house was—they’d moved us in—oh, they’d never allow it nowadays. Moved us in, we had no water. So the firemen came and hooked up to a fire hydrant about a block and a half away. [LAUGHTER] And then it ran into a garden hose, and it was February, and like below zero. So you always had to have water running in the bathtub to keep the little garden house. And if froze up, all the neighbors would come out and jump up and down on it, breaking the ice up. But nowadays you wouldn’t be able to move into a house without full running water. Franklin: Right, right. Wow. That’s fabulous. Davis: And then when we were first there—we were the very first ones sold. The others were having open houses. And we’d be sitting there having like a family get-together, and people start walking in our house. Oh, this one’s not open! No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And then that of course touched off a boom, though, right, in house construction in Richland. Davis: Right. North Richland, I remember we used to sit at our kitchen table and look out and watch all the houses going up, and here are all the—for years, you could see new houses and hear hammering every morning. North Richland just really took off because everybody started building their own. Franklin: Right. Davis: A lot of people went ahead and bought their original house from the government, but my parents—I don’t know, they fell—my dad fell in love with this house. My mother hated it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long did they live at that house? Davis: We lived there 13 years. Franklin: Okay. So they really do like to move around a lot. Davis: That’s like mom’s record, yeah. Her last move was with us and she had to live with us ten years without moving before she died. [LAUGHTER] But generally, about—when my siblings were growing up, they got used to moving every six months to a year and a half. And they went to every single school in Richland. Franklin: Wow. Well, I guess they know a pretty big cross-section of the community, then. Davis: They were always—when you talk to different people, they’re like, oh yeah, so-and-so, and I go, oh yeah, my parents were their neighbors. And somebody else would say, oh yeah, they were their neighbors, too. Like Garmo who owned one of the grocery stores. All these different people, they were their neighbors at some point in time. Probably Johnson, who was the photographer for the area. He was a good friend and I’m still in recent contact with his daughter. Franklin: Right. Davis: But pretty much, if you lived in Richland for any length of time, my parents were your neighbor at some point. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. So when did your father retire from Hanford? Davis: I was married, so—when did he retire? I got married in ’74, so I’m trying to remember exactly. ’75 or ’76, something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow, so he was on—did he have any gaps in employment, or did he work onsite since 1943? Davis: He worked onsite that whole time. Franklin: Wow, and so what did— Davis: Except for the six-week strike they had. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, well tell me about that. Davis: I don’t even remember what it was about. I was in junior high. They had a strike which my dad was not in favor of, but he wouldn’t break union line. So he was on strike. During that time, he says, oh well, I’ll make the best of it, so he built a family room onto our house. [LAUGHTER] And got hooked on soap operas. Franklin: Wow. Davis: He used to make fun of Mom wanting to watch her soap opera, and then when he went back to work, he’d come home from work and go, what happened with—[LAUGHTER] But they were only on strike for like six weeks. Franklin: And do you remember what the strike was about at all? Davis: I don’t remember what it was about. Like I say, it was in junior high. It was— Franklin: Do you think you can give me kind of a date range so we could try to find something about that? Davis: That would have been in the late ‘60s? Somewhere in—yeah. It wasn’t a very long strike, but it was the first one that I know of that they had. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was that site wide, do you remember? Davis: Yeah, it was site wide. I wish I remembered what it was, but in junior high you don’t pay attention to stuff like that. Yeah, Dad’s on strike, well, so is everybody else’s dad, so— Franklin: All you know is that he’s camped out on the couch watching soap operas. Davis: No, he was busy building the family room. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: He literally put a whole addition on the back of the house. So that’s what he was doing during his six weeks. Franklin: Still worked. So you mentioned that he had been kind of a construction guy and then had worked at the separation plant, right, and then worked in the B Reactor. So what other jobs did he have? Davis: He went from B Reactor, when they closed it down, then he went to K. And then he kept saying, oh, I sure hope they don’t ever send me to N. That’s where he ended up. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah? Davis: He was always—he liked his B Reactor. Just the way the others were set up and they were different, he liked his B Reactor. Franklin: He got comfortable— Davis: But he ended up at N Reactor anyway. That’s where he retired from. Franklin: Oh, wow. And what did he do at— Davis: He was a reactor operator. He was—yeah, from after construction, he was a reactor operator. Franklin: So it seems like a really big career jump, from construction to— Davis: Yeah, but they didn’t—nobody knew what they were doing exactly. Franklin: Right. Davis: So it’s learn-as-you-go. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Davis: My dad—I remember him—it was really neat to go on the B Reactor tour, because it was probably the 70s before he ever even talked about what it looked like or anything. I never knew what it looked like. But he started—in the 70s was able to start feeling comfortable—I mean, it wasn’t classified or anything then. But the guys had just been used to not talking about it. Franklin: Well, yeah, I mean secrecy. Davis: But he started describing the panels and stuff. And there was this office behind him, and he says—during World War II—he says, the crazy Italian in the silk suits sat back there. And then he’d go get crapped up, is when they’d get contaminated and they’d have to take his silk suits away and burn them. I didn’t realize it until after Dad was gone, when he was talking about the crazy Italian in the silk suits, that was Fermi. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: Sitting behind my dad! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. Davis: But he never said his name. He never said his name. Just the crazy Italian in the silk suits. Franklin: But, of course he probably would have known his name. Davis: Oh, during World War II, they didn’t. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: So that’s how—I think they just referred to him as the crazy Italians with the silk suits. Because they literally did not know their names. He was the guy who sat back there, and he’d go into places they weren’t allowed to go to. And he wasn’t really supposed to, but he’d go in and tinker. Then they’d check him for radiation and go, eh, those clothes—I remember, one of my early memories is being in grade school and my dad getting off the bus, because everybody rode the buses to work. They were just like clockwork and super on—I mean super on time. And I remember coming out of the house, and my dad’s getting off the bus in the afternoon and—I guess I was heading to school. He’s coming down—my dad was only five-foot-six. And he’s got a pair of pants that he’s holding up around his armpits, and a shirt that’s probably was past his knees rolled up to his—and clomping along in these shoes that don’t fit. He had gotten crapped up at work. Franklin: Oh. Davis: And he ended up—one of his friends who was like six-foot-six had some extra clothes. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, he’s like, you know, when you get your clothes crapped up, you lose your clothes. Franklin: Right. Davis: Even your underwear. [LAUGHTER] So he’s coming home with—[LAUGHTER] I still remember—luckily we only lived like a half block from where the bus dropped him off. But I thought, that had to be a little uncomfortable at work, walking around like that. Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. Davis: Trying to hold these. Yeah, Trawler, he was six-five, six-six. He was a tall guy, skinny. But Dad was only five-foot-six. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s a great story. So there’s some—a couple of the big events that we always ask people about and one of them is Kennedy’s visit to the N Reactor in 1963. Did you—were you— Davis: Both my parents were working. Franklin: They were both working, so— Davis: [LAUGHTER] I didn’t have any way to get there. I wanted to go, but my parents, oh, it’s going to be a big crowd. They didn’t like crowds. Franklin: Right. Davis: So, yeah, I didn’t get to go. They were both working. So I heard about it from my friends. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Your friends who went? Davis: Yeah, I had friends who went. Franklin: Awesome. Davis: And they still remember it, and I’m going, oh, I didn’t get to go. Franklin: Ah, you were busy. So any other major—any other big events that kind of stick out at you in Richland, growing up in Richland or maybe even a little later? Davis: Ah, let’s see, what were the events? They always had their fire parade, their fire prevention parades. That was when you were a kid and you got to decorate your bike and ride down the road. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: G Way, and they had—when I was really little, there was like Frontier Days or some other parade that we had. And then one of the big thrills was in the spring, they would bring in, quote, well, we’d call them travel trailers now, but they were the early mobile homes that were like eight-foot-wide and 12 feet long. And they’d set them up in the Uptown Richland parking lot. You’d go look through them and go, oh, aren’t these cool. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They brought them up for sale? Davis: Yeah, you know how they do car shows now in parking lots? Well, they’d bring these little mobile—[LAUGHTER] little dinky mobile homes. Which nowadays, I says, my fifth wheel’s bigger [LAUGHTER] than these, quote, homes that you’re supposed to live in. Franklin: I could imagine for some of the people who had been here in the early days that those might have given them some flashbacks to the trailer camps or— Davis: Yeah, my parents didn’t live in the trailer camps, but they had a lot of friends who did. And one of my best friends, her parents had built—they had no place to live, so they built their own trailer and lived down at the Y. It was a homemade, and it was really little with three kids. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s amazing. So did you end up staying in Richland, then—did you ever move out of the Tri-Cities? Davis: We went to the Chicago area, and we were gone—I didn’t leave until I got married. Franklin: Okay. Davis: My husband went to Pullman for a year and then we went to Chicago. We were gone about nine years and then came back and raised our kids here. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so what brought you back to the— Davis: Family. My parents were here, my dad’s health was failing, and I had just lost my father-in-law. So we kind of wanted the kids to get the chance to know their grandparents, because my husband’s parents were both gone. So, family. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, wow. Davis: And good memories of being growing up here. Franklin: Sure, sure. Davis: Versus Chicago. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, what would you—is there anything you would like future generations to know about growing up—like kind of the experience growing up in Richland, or what it would have been like to be so close to Hanford? To help them understand what that would be like. Davis: Growing up with my dad, the guys and women who worked out there, they were proud of what they did. Yes, bombs, they all agreed, the bomb is nasty. But in the long run it probably saved millions of lives on both sides. Because Japan was willing to fight ‘til the last man, which would have been millions of more lives lost. And if they would have gotten the bomb first, we’d be speaking Japanese. [LAUGHTER] I think there’s an overall pride—and my husband and I were just talking about this last year, that what was accomplished at Hanford would never be able to be done today. Back then, the old—they had all the signs, loose lips sink ships. My husband says, well, it’d been sunk long—they couldn’t have even gotten the first thing done before it would have been out in the open. Nowadays I don’t think they could pull it off. And people knew they weren’t supposed to talk about it. My dad—my mom said when they were living in Yakima, my dad, he had read about the reactor—splitting the atom in the Collier’s magazine before the war. They were going to go get the magazine and look it up. They never got around to it. Found out if you asked about that magazine, you were fired. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So they learned not to say anything. They handed some uranium around and my dad by the weight, he said, it wasn’t very big but he knew by the weight what it was. And he started to say something, and his boss says, don’t. And later he says if you would’ve said it, I would’ve had to have fired you on the spot. I mean, you just knew that if you said anything—so he whispered it to my mom one night, under—they were sure that there were microphones everywhere. So even though they were living in Yakima, he would put a pillow over them. And he says, I think we’re making the bomb. Franklin: Really? Davis: And my mom kind of went, pfft. Sure you are. [LAUGHTER] And then my mom didn’t know—said they didn’t really know what it was until my brother came home from school and all the kids and everybody was going, we dropped the bomb, we dropped the bomb. Franklin: Wow. Davis: But I think there’s a pride in what they did. It was very secretive and when you realize that everybody was doing their little part, and they didn’t know what the other parts were. I mean, it’d be like trying to tell somebody to put a car together. Here, you have this screw, put it somewhere—and only that one. And you don’t really know what’s going on. It was really amazing what they pulled off. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: And I think they—all the men and women who worked out there were really proud of what they did. And I think it went on to their families to feel proud of what they did. Yeah, the bomb’s not a nice thing, but where we would have been without it? Franklin: Right. What about later in the Cold War, after, and all the other things that were produced—all the other bombs that were produced? Do you think that added or ever shifted and change, or—especially in the late 60s with the protests? Davis: Yeah, in the ‘60s, my dad used to get to work with Dixy Lee Ray periodically and they’d sit and talk. And he always kept saying, you know, we’ve kept it so quiet and we keep it so hush-hush. He says, we’re past that point now, we need to educate people on nuclear power and get away from the—people, and I still talk to people, especially not from around here, when you’re in other states, they cannot separate power from bomb. To them, it’s all one thing. There is no power, it’s just a bomb. And it’s like, no, you can have nuclear power and not have a bomb. And he kept saying, we need to educate—and I remember learning stuff about it in school here. Cousins and stuff back east, they never learned anything about it. They knew nothing about nuclear power, nuclear fission—nothing. [LAUGHTER] I think the sad part is that they didn’t do more educating, they just—they lived too long in that shroud of secrecy, and didn’t spread the knowledge. Franklin: Right. So you think, maybe it was—even though everybody knew after ’45 what was—and that they were continuing to produced, there was maybe a missed opportunity there. Davis: And throughout the ‘50s it was still—you didn’t talk about it. Franklin: Right, the fear, the specter of international communism. Davis: Right, even though war was over with the bombs, everybody knows about it, it still was a hush-hush. Yeah, I think they missed an opportunity on education. And people just grew up fearing it and not understanding anything about—hey, this could be a decent power source. Franklin: Right. Davis: Taking Chernobyl out as a factor. [LAGUHTER] That was a poorly designed— Franklin: There’s also Three Mile and other—certainly when a lot of people on the East Coast found about nuclear power first— Davis: Yeah, they learned about it when it wasn’t—sometimes it was a poor design to start with. Well, when we lived in Chicago, there’s the Indiana Dunes. They were trying to build one on the Dunes. They didn’t even have any bedrock to sink it into. And we’re going, you know, they’re dunes? They kind of like, don’t stay put? [LAUGHTER] When we left there, they were still trying to do it. And we’re like, that doesn’t even make sense. So then there was a lot of stupid mistakes, too, that—yeah, you got to think about all the safety part. Franklin: Right. But it seems kind of hard sometimes to separate the secrecy even from the—there’s so much [INAUDIBLE]. Davis: Do you know, through even the mid ‘60s there was still tremendous secrecy. Mid and late ‘60s. You still, living here, felt like, you know, it was hush-hush. Franklin: But I imagine with the government owning the town until the late ‘50s that certainly you would keep that element of—that kind of vibe alive. Davis: Yeah, and pretty much the same people who were here when the government released the town—when I graduated from high school, what, were there 9,000 people in Richland? That was in ’72. So a good chunk of those people were ones who were still here from World War II. Franklin: Right, and you lived in Richland the whole time, from when you were growing up, when you were born. Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: So did you ever go to the other two cities much? Davis: Oh, yeah! Downtown Pasco was one of the best places to shop! Franklin: Oh really? Davis: Oh, it had the classy stores! Franklin: Really? Davis: Oh, yeah. It was a major trek, but you’d go to downtown Pasco to go shopping. Well, that was a big day shopping, because they had the fancier ladies’ stores, they had shoe stores, they had the pet shop! Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: And they had a big drug store, and furniture stores and you could spend a whole day in, quote, Downtown Pasco! [LAUGHTER] That was a classy place to go. And then the old downtown Kennewick was—that was more functional. It had Penney’s and Sears and stuff, you know. Not Sears—what was it? I can’t remember the name of the store. But when you needed fireplace stuff or a stove or something. Franklin: So like a Woolworth’s or something like that. Davis: Yeah, but there were several stores. And there was the hardware store that’s still there. Franklin: Yeah, the— Davis: Kennewick Hardware is still there. It was there when I was little. I think one of the big things you remember is like going there in three feet of snow because our stove had caught fire. We had to buy a new stove. Back then you could leave your kid in the car, and I was tired of going in and out of stores, and sitting there in the car. I was probably about four. Mom was just inside, you know, ordering a stove and we got a chinook. Within like the time that they took them to order their stove and come out, I watched the snow leave. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: Totally fascinating. It was gurgling and stuff, but wow. That’s one thing about this area, you get chinooks. When you talk about it in Chicago, they go, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s really interesting. Did you have any friends from the other cities, or did you mostly— Davis: My parents’ best friends moved to Kennewick, which was my sister’s best friend—it started out with my sister’s best friend who they lived kitty-corner from us when I was born, and then our parents met and became best friends, and then her younger sister and I are best friends, and we’re each other’s kids’ godparents. But they—when I was about three or four, they moved to Kennewick to a new house. [LAUGHTER] And then he commuted. He had to drive out to work because he couldn’t—the buses didn’t go to Kennewick; they were only in Richland. Franklin: So there was still a lot of inducement, then, to stay in Richland. Davis: Yeah, you didn’t have to get that second car, because you’d just walk—most of the guys didn’t walk more than a block or two to get to the bus. Franklin: Wow. Davis: I mean, these buses were everywhere. Franklin: Yeah, at the project offices, we have a map—I think it’s from the very early ‘80s but even then they were still running buses, and yeah, they’d go all— Davis: They go everywhere and nobody walked more than two blocks from their house to a bus. Franklin: That’s [INAUDIBLE]. Davis: So you only had to have one car. Even when my mom was working, she got the car to go to work and Dad rode the bus. Wasn’t any problem. Franklin: Right. I bet that would help instill a certain sense of camaraderie, because you’d ride the bus with these guys, and it’s not like today when you get in a car and you’re kind of in this bubble—you have a radio, but you’re kind of in a bubble. Whereas in a bus, everyday, you-- Davis: Well, we lived there, where—the change between the government town and the newer part of town. So you had people like Dad—you’ve got nuclear operators, you had janitors and you had the scientists, all on the same bus. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: I mean, everybody rode the bus. When the bus would come, there’d always be five or six guys standing out down there. And a bunch would get off and a bunch would get on. Franklin: So after the changeover, it was still the site that operated all the buses. Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: Did they have to pay for that, or was that just a perk? Davis: That was just—yeah, they just paid for it. I mean, the government paid for it—nobody else could ride the buses, only the workers and they only went to and from work. They weren’t for like the families to go shopping or anything. It was just for the workers. And, yeah, they just got on the buses and they knew they were going to be there. Franklin: When did bus service start in the area for other people living in Richland? Davis: It had to have been after—as soon as they started building houses. Franklin: Okay. Davis: Because these guys had to get to work— Franklin: Right. Oh, no, sorry— Davis: And most people back then, you had tire vouchers and stuff—you couldn’t like get tires overnight. You couldn’t even get bananas without a doctor’s prescription. [LAUGHTER] My siblings were skinny, so Mom always ended up with a prescription for bananas. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, they had to write doctor’s prescriptions. So getting a second car wasn’t even really an option. So they started the bus service really early, just getting these guys out to work as they started building the home. Franklin: Wow. So you brought in some documents and things. Would you like to— Davis: Where’d we put them? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I think it’d be really interesting to get those on video and to have you talk about some of those. Davis: All right. They’re not super exciting. This is my dad’s birth certificate. The City of Miller which never was officially a city, in Lyon, Kansas. My father’s records were in the courthouse along with three generations of family records, and it burned down when he was about seven. So he had no birth certificate. And not too long after he started working here, they asked for his birth certificate—that he needed to get it. And he says, I don’t have one. So this is his newer birth certificate that they issued in May of ’42. He came in February so to May he had to get it. They sent an FBI agent out who interviewed his father, his uncle who raised him—his mother died when he was born so his uncle raised him—and his aunt. And they also used an insurance policy that was issued when he was 20 to verify that he was him. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So not everybody has all these affidavits and stuff at the bottom of their birth certificate, but this was from the FBI being able to verify. My great aunt was like, that was the weirdest thing. [LAUGHTER] Because back there, you just don’t have government people. Franklin: Right. So they would have been out to the small town in Kansas, then. Davis: Out in the middle of nowhere. Franklin: To ask questions about her nephew. Davis: That was one thing growing up in Richland. You were so used to the FBI coming to your door at least once a month, because everybody had different cycles for their clearances. They would always come to your door and ask, are they part of your—do they drink, do they do that? We talked to them all the time. It was never any big deal, because always somebody in your neighborhood was renewing their certification—their clearance. When I lived in Chicago, they came about somebody who was going to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority. It was my neighbor. My neighbors all slammed the door in their face. I talked to the guy, I opened the door, and I go, oh, yeah! It was security clearance. He goes, you’re the first one who’d talk to me. [LAUGHTER] I says, did it all the time when I was growing up. Franklin: Wow. Davis: But it scares a lot of people. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: But I think they thought it was a little—because the war’s going on, they don’t know what’s going on and here’s these FBI people wanting to know about my dad. I think they’re going, what’s he doing? Franklin: Yeah, is he a spy? Davis: Yeah, did he get in trouble? And they’re not allowed to tell them anything. So they thought it was very, very strange when these suited men showed up. Franklin: That’s great, that’s a great story. And it’s great to have the documentation here to— Davis: You’ve already seen a million flood pictures. Franklin: Well, that’s still a pretty—very scarring event for a lot of people, I bet. Davis: Yeah, this was the flood of ’48. It came within a few blocks of where my parents were living at the time. Don’t ask which street that was back then, because they moved so much. But this was just a family picture of the Flood of ’48 that was so devastating. And then they put the dyke in. Franklin: Right. Davis: Here is—well, this one’s tiny. This is just a picture of any summer day in Richland. Everybody had kids. Most the families were young, so there was lots of kids. It was just—even when I was growing up was the same way in the ‘60s. There was kids everywhere. Riding bikes and running between houses, and you came in when the street lights came on. Franklin: And I imagine not a lot of elderly people in Richland, right? And so that must have—because you would have had grandparents, but they would have been far away, or they wouldn’t be living in town. Whereas in Kennewick and Pasco people might have more extended families living near them. Davis: Right. My grandmother came here to live with Mom and Dad not too long before she died. But, yeah, grandparents—if you were retired you couldn’t live in Richland. Franklin: Right, right. Davis: If you were not working for Hanford, you didn’t live there. So, yeah, there weren’t old people and most of the construction workers who came were young and all had young families. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So there were kids pouring out of every house. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: So this is—how many kids are in just—this is Mom and Dad’s front yard. And the kids played ball together, they ran and played tag. There were no fences, so all the backs of the yards were like one big yard. Franklin: Wow. And probably still not a lot of trees at that time. Davis: Not really. Franklin: And when—can we look at this photo on the back? Davis: This was 1948. So that’s only three years after the war. So, yeah, the trees are still—if you look around, you don’t see any trees. Franklin: Right. Wow. Davis: And here’s another one. This one would be—let’s see. This’d be ’46. No trees. There’s a bush. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And this is one of your sisters? Davis: This is my sister. Yeah. First day of kindergarten. But what I brought it for was the A house. See, they had the dark color on top—this one, I’m guessing, is probably the red one. And then the cream. They were all like that, they were all bicolored. We had cream and then one of the other three choices. You had green, red, and blue. That was it. Franklin: Right. Davis: The government supplied the paint. This is the house that I grew up in on Newcomer. It was the first spec house sold. We’re still getting our water lines. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And my dog, Tippy. This isn’t the garage anymore; somebody’s changed it out. But we had—it was really fresh and new. Franklin: And this was 1960? Davis: ’60. Yeah, February of ’60 is when we moved in. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Mom says January of ‘60. I always think it was February but oh well. Halfway through kindergarten, I had to change schools. My siblings went, so? Because they had to change schools all the time. Franklin: Yeah, not a lot of sympathy for you, I bet. Davis: And this is my dad getting an award for what they called the Christmas Tree, which was the front of the reactor that had lights—indicator lights on it. I don’t know if it says exactly what he—just came up, yeah. Franklin: He’s D. D. Smith? Davis: Most people called him D. D. or Smitty. His named was Derald. Franklin: Derald. Davis: Derald. Like Gerald but with a D. Let’s see. Yeah, he was considered a pile operator. $185 was his award, which—like I said, that was a lot of money. Franklin: A couple weeks’ wages, probably. Davis: At least two or three weeks’ worth of wages. So that was a really big thing. Yeah, something about modifying the lights or something so they were easier to read. Apparently they thought it was a good idea. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Do you know when that was? Was that during the war? Was this— Davis: Since my dad never looked any different over a 40- or 50-year period, I’m not sure what date is on this. What was funny is on the back, I found my friend’s dad’s name on it. [LAUGHTER] And I went, oh! I’m kind of guessing this might be the ‘50s? Franklin: Okay. Davis: Early ‘60s? I’m looking at the ties. Franklin: No, that’s good. Davis: They had a paper that came out of the Areas. That was in that paper—the Area paper was a little fold-up. Franklin: Yeah, we have a bound collection of a lot of the Hanford GE News and a lot of that. Let’s see this here. Davis: 1944. This is my dad’s card for the International Union of Operating Engineers. Franklin: Okay. Davis: And that was December of ’44. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So this is still during the war. Franklin: Yeah! Davis: And this is the other part of the same thing, the International Union of Operating Engineers. Came out of Spokane. Got stamped; I guess for going to meetings. No, his dues, his dues and going to meetings. Franklin: Makes sense. Davis: Whoops. This isn’t for my dad; this is for my grandmother. I need to go show Kadlec this. [LAUGHTER] My grandmother got cancer and was in Kadlec Hospital for six weeks before she died. Franklin: Okay. Davis: Here’s the total of her bill. $386.15. Franklin: Wow. Davis: The operating room cost $8. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Anesthesia was $10. It cost more. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Lab, dressings—yeah, and she was there for six weeks before she died. Franklin: Six weeks. Davis: And that’s her bill. This bill was—yeah, written on the day she died. Franklin: Okay. And what date was that? Davis: 1946. Franklin: Oh, okay. So she moved in, then, pretty soon after the war ended? Davis: Yeah, and she moved to— Hungate: And it’s billed through DuPont. Davis: Yup. Oh, even I—I didn’t even notice that. DuPont. Franklin: DuPont. Davis: I don’t know of many people still have a bill from 1946. Franklin: No. That’s a very interesting bill, though. Davis: What is this one? Oh, this is just really bad pictures that they took—every year they had to have their pictures renewed. [LAUGHTER] That was—that had to have been a windy day, because his hair’s sticking up all over. Franklin: Right, well, like you said earlier, they had thousands upon thousands of men to process. Davis: Yeah, it’s like while you’re at work, and it’s just like get your picture taken, click, and you’re done. Franklin: And this, on the front it says GE so— Davis: Yeah, that would have been from after GE took over. I’d say from that picture from the ‘60s. Franklin: Wow. Davis: What’s this one? Just a few little odd things I found in Mom’s—oh, just—from February of 1942, The University of Kansas School of Engineering and Architecture, Engineering Defense Training Program from—his certificate. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, this is—I’m not sure exactly what they taught him, or—he never talked about this. I knew nothing about this until I found this just this last week. Franklin: Wow, interesting. Davis: So I have no story to go with this, other than the date and it’s my dad. Franklin: Right. So then he would have came out here very shortly after getting this, right? Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: Interesting. Davis: Like I say, when they told him to come out, they didn’t tell him why or anything. Just go to this place in Washington that you’ve never heard of. Franklin Yeah, we have a job for you. Davis: And you’re going to have trouble finding it on a map, even. [LAUGHTER] This is just a—it’s got—it says N Reactor Plant Dates—Data. Just about—I think it was a reference for them when they were working. Franklin: Okay. Davis: It’s pocket size. Franklin: Right. Davis: So I think it was just a—yeah, decontaminating, water treatment—I think it was just a little reference thing that they kept in their—on their person. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And then my dad was trying to get my uncle to move out here from Kansas. [LAUGHTER] And he wrote a letter describing wages, jobs. So, trying to get down to there. Let’s see. “They want patrolmen pretty badly. The pay isn’t as much as I make by about $18 a week.” But my uncle was single, never married, so it probably wasn’t any problem to him. And he says, “However it isn’t bad. You start at $58 a week.” [LAUGHTER] It says, a week. And after 30 days, after you’ve passed that, you move up to $60 a week. And then after six months you get $62.50 a week. Yeah, they were looking for patrolmen and firemen and a lot of the other stuff. And he asked—my uncle was in World War Two, and he asked if he had any training in anything specific that might be used out here. But my uncle stayed back in Kansas and eventually became a—because of being ex-military, he became a postman. Not a postman, a postmaster. Franklin: Okay. Davis: A postmaster in a little town. But he never did come out. I just thought the pricing—just thought it was interesting, because 58 bucks a week. Franklin: That would have been—that’s a good chunk of money back then. Davis: For my uncle, for what he was making in Kansas it would have been a whole lot of money. [INAUDIBLE] Oh, meals at the cafeteria average $0.75. It’s just littered with little stuff like that. He was trying to convince my uncle to move back out here. Franklin: Right, wow. Davis: What’s this? Oh. This was in a Kansas City Times in 1947. “Growing Town of Atom Plant Workers Is a Distinctive Sort of Community.” Franklin: Mm. Davis: So, that was kind of—you know. This is what, when people released—after the war’s over, people are starting to hear, now, what the heck was—[LAUGHTER] going on, and how different our towns were from towns that had been around for 100 years. Franklin: Right. And that it’s completely government controlled and— Davis: Yeah, and plants were far from town. You know, Dad would usually spend an hour on the bus going out to work, and we were in North Richland. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, but I think this is what my uncle had cut out and sent to him. Franklin: Cool. Davis: From Kansas. And the highest birthrates in the nation. [LAUGHTER] Because everybody was young. I was part of that major boom. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s neat. That’s neat that he saved that. Davis: And my sister says—we were talking and she said, yeah, when you went to school, you stood up on the first day of school and said where you were from. Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas. When I went to school, we had all been born here. There weren’t any outsiders, I guess, because we were all born here. Franklin: Right. Davis: But during the war, everybody stood up and said where they were from. Because everybody was from somewhere. Franklin: Right. Davis: She says, there was a few—once in a while you’d run into somebody who says, oh, I was born here. And they’re like, oh. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, oh, you’re an original! Davis: Oh, you’re really strange! You didn’t come from the Midwest? Because that seems to be the biggest proportion came from the Midwest. Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas. Franklin: And Texas, too, there was a huge—but that’s definitely where they were pulling lots of people from. Davis: And it was mostly by word of mouth as their job tended to—go to Washington. What are we going to do? Can’t tell you. Because I don’t know. Franklin: Take this train to a place you’ve never heard of. Davis: Yup. Any other questions? Franklin: No, I think that was great. Thank you so much for sharing. I learned a lot of things that I didn’t know about, growing up here. Davis: Oh, I probably—going to think of a million things driving home, I’m sure. Oh, I should have said—[LAUGHTER] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:33 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor K Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-1975 1984- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linda Davis Description An account of the resource Linda Davis was born in Richland, Washington in 1954. Her father moved to Richland in 1943 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/26/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-01-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Dust Bowl Era, 1931-1939 Nuclear power plant operators Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities B Reactor Cold War Dunes DuPont FBI Flood Hanford Kennedy Kennewick N Reactor School War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fff380e39103fa01178d8e1059e1573c9.JPG ec132b0727e3f0d01ff595ff8ac6c9ec https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5a56b59e81d95070c7376fcc8d6d65fd.mp4 f22765f72beab82ec380fe201952ab1b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ray Deranleau Location The location of the interview Washington State University, Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | D_Henry_Raymond Robert Bauman: Okay. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. And I'm going to start by having you say your name, and spell it for us, please. Ray Deranleau: Ray De-- are you ready? Bauman: Yep. Deranleau: Ray Deranleau, D-E-R-A-N-L-E-A-U, R-A-Y on the first name. Bauman: Great, thank you. And today's date is September 3rd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you talk about your family--how they came, how, when, why they came to the area here. Deranleau: Well, my folks come here in 1930. And at that time, there was just six kids left in the house. The three older ones had grown up. And they more or less, I think, starved out--they were up at Genesee, Idaho. And the price of wheat wasn't anything, and they just kind of went broke up there. They moved down here, and, of course, we farmed down here, but that was altogether different. Dad had been a dry land farmer, but he had to learn the irrigation thing. Bauman: Do you know how he heard about Richland, or any of that? Deranleau: I think he just put the place up for sale and the real estate person, Carl Williams, who was in Kennewick for a long time, handled it. I know that. And I suppose that's how it happened. I was about--I was six--or, five when we moved here. So, a lot of that up there, I don't recall even. Bauman: And what were your parents' names? Deranleau: Henry and Elizabeth. Bauman: And so where was your farm? Deranleau: Well, it was right across the ditch from where Battelle is, headed west. It was across that ditch. And if you are familiar with that, there was an old school—Vale School, up there at one time. And Dad had 33 acres, and that seven acres was out of that original 40. So we were right adjacent to that. Bauman: Okay. Who were some of your neighbors, or people who lived closest to you, then? Deranleau: Well, Pete Hansen lived right next to us. And then, across the ditch, was Hultgrenn. Were the two closest. Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on the far? Deranleau: Well, we had--towards the last, we had a little mint--peppermint. And we had quite a few grapes, but most folks didn't raise grapes like Dad did. And, of course, we had hay and asparagus, and strawberries. Bauman: And growing up on the farm, did you have particular chores or responsibilities that were yours? Deranleau: Hell yeah. We milked cows, and just all the stuff that went with it. Cut asparagus. We'd get up as soon as you could see to cut asparagus in the spring. That was always a cash crop that made a little money for everybody that--and of course, it was early. It'd give them a chance to have some money to pay the water bill, and stuff like that. So that was a good crop then. Bauman: Do you know where the crops were sold? Deranleau: Well, they were sold mostly at Kennewick. And some things at Pasco, but mostly at Kennewick. Ours was, anyway. Bauman: I want to ask you also, about your farm, were there other buildings besides the house itself on the property? What other buildings were there? Deranleau: Well, yeah, we had a barn, and a little shed that, I suppose at one time, had been kind of an open end garage type thing. But most of that stuff was so worn out that you could throw a cat through it somewhere. Bauman: So when you bought the place, it was something that someone else had already owned? Deranleau: There was what? Bauman: Someone else had already owned the place? Deranleau: No, Dad got that place from the ditch company. And he just moved on there for no payment at all. And of course, the reasoning behind that was if they had people farming, they were buying their water. So they were better off just to let you set on there. And of course, eventually, he paid for it. But that's when they moved on that thing. Bauman: Oh, okay. Deranleau: And it was awful run down, to begin with. Whoever was on there ahead of us didn't do much farming. They just-- Bauman: Do you know how old the place was? Deranleau: No. Bauman: It had been there for a while? Deranleau: Yeah, it was older than I was. Bauman: And what about electricity? Did you have electricity there? Deranleau: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] We got electricity there. And at that time that, PP&L was in here, which was Pacific Power and Light. And they wouldn't give you electricity until the ERA came in, and then they were right there to give you some, if they could. But they had to run a line in from Stevens, you know, where I live, there. And that was probably, what, a block and a half maybe. But anyway--and then they went to our neighbors. And we had to buy electric stoves. And I suppose--I know we bought them from them, and I don't know if we had to or not. And just a deal where you pay a nickel down, pay the rest your life, type thing. And I suppose they got a dang good shafting on the price of that stove. I don't know that, but common sense tells me that. But that's the way electricity was then. And like I said, boy, they weren't very helpful until the ERA came in, and made all the difference in the world. REA, I guess it is. Bauman: REA, right. And did that happen sometime after you arrived, the REA? Probably, yeah-- Deranleau: Yeah. Roosevelt, I think, went in in, what, in '32? And so we went there in '30. And we moved on to that place, I would say, in '35. And I could be off a year or two. It was the second place where we first lived. Bauman: Okay, so where did you live before that, then? Deranleau: We lived just off of Van Giesen, and right in there close to where that little shoplifting center is, there on Van Giesen. If you know much about the history of this place, there was a house there, and they called it Officer's--Officer's something. And I can't say the word I want to. But anyway, it was a big, nice house, and they had left that for quite a while before they ever tore it down. I think they moved it to West Richland eventually. Bauman: So that's where you lived initially, and then you moved to the place-- Deranleau: Pardon? Bauman: So that's where you lived for about five years? '30, '35, and then you moved to the second place? Okay. And what about telephone? Did you have a telephone? Deranleau: Yeah. We had a telephone. My dad was on the ditch board--the water board. There were three other people around there. And then they had a guy running it. In fact, Fletcher--his dad run that. And he had to have a telephone because of that. Bauman: Oh, okay. Deranleau: I suppose we wouldn't have had a telephone as quick as we did. Bauman: Was that a party line, sort of? Deranleau: Oh, yeah. Yeah, then about that time, too, we switched over from horses to a tractor. So that was kind of a change in farming for us a lot. Bauman: So initially you had horses for all the work on the farm? Do you remember what kind of tractor you got? Deranleau: Yeah, we had an F-12, Farmall tractor. Bauman: So what about the town of Richland itself? What do you remember about the town during the 1930s? Any businesses, or things that you-- Deranleau: Well, there was a couple of grocery stores, and a couple of gas stations. You could buy little candy bars, and stuff like that at those gas stations. And there was a hardware--good hardware store. And I probably missed some of them, but there wasn't much here. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did you have a radio, or--how did you get news? Deranleau: Well, we had a radio. It worked part of the time. [LAUGHTER] One of those deals where everybody had his damn ear down into the--trying to hear it. Bauman: Do you remember listening to any shows, or anything in particular on the radio when you were growing up? Deranleau: Oh yeah, we used to listen to Jimmy Allen. And of course, Dad listened to the news. So we'd listen to that, too. But Jimmy Allen, and, oh, Amos and Andy. We'd listen to that. And I don't remember what else. Not much, we didn't listen to it a lot. It wasn't very good. Bauman: What about newspaper? Was there a newspaper? Deranleau: Yeah, we always had the Spokesman Review. There wasn't any local papers at that time. Bauman: I want to ask you about school. What school did you go to? And do you have any specific memories about school, teachers or anything like that? Deranleau: Well, we had a pretty good little school, if we'd have tried to learn something. And some of us wasn't too interested in that, to be real frank with you. And I was one of them--hell, I thought I knew everything there was to know at 15. But really, we didn't have a bad school. Bauman: How did you get to school? Was there a bus? Deranleau: Yeah, went on a school bus. Bauman: Was that a sort of regular school bus? Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: It was? Okay. Deranleau: Yeah, they had certain routes. There were about--I would say maybe five of them. Bauman: Were there any teachers that you particularly remember from your years of school in Richland? Deranleau: Well, no, not really. We had some good ones and some bad ones. But I don't like to badmouth some of them. And especially the kind of student I was. If I'd have had me, I'd have killed me. Just to be real frank with you. Bauman: What's a recreational activities? What did you do for fun growing up? Deranleau: Well, we played ball, and we fished, and just kind of entertained ourselves. We worked a lot, really. When kids were old enough to work--and if you had any spare time, Dad would go out and buy another 20 acres, just about what it boiled to with those old guys. You know, if they had boys especially, they were out looking for more land. [LAUGHTER] Which was a way of life at that time. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember any community events? Any-- Deranleau: Well, we used to go to grange meetings. And they'd have two a month. And one of them would be a social thing, and at that one, they'd serve a little sandwich and coffee, and they'd have dances. You'd just volunteer a band, so that was pretty neat. Bauman: Where were the grange meetings held? Deranleau: The Grange Hall was right up where the Lutheran church is, here in Richland, on Van Giesen--or, yeah, Van Giesen and Stevens. Bauman: So I assume your father was a member of the grange. Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: Was he part of any other organizations? You mentioned the irrigation, right? Deranleau: No, not really. We went to church when we had gas. Bauman: What church did you go to? Deranleau: Catholic. And we'd have to go to Kennewick for that. There wasn't any Catholic church here. In fact, there was one church, and I think they called it Community Methodist. And pretty near all the protestants would go there. And maybe they'd have a Methodist preacher for a while, and if he starved out, the next one could be Lutheran, or whatever, you know. You just kind of, in those days, did with what you had. And they pretty much had a Seventh Day Adventist little church there, too. There wasn't many members, but they would have meetings there, on Saturday. Bauman: Were there a number of families that went to the Catholic church in Kennewick from Richland, who lived there? Deranleau: Oh, I don't think there was a half a dozen. Maybe something like that. Of course, them Catholics, in those days, had lots of kids, and more kids than the rest of them. So we could kind of outnumber them. We didn't need--if we had families, we had groups. [LAUGHTER] We had one Catholic bunch, lived out there on the river. And I think they had 17 or 19 kids, somebody said. And in those days, it wasn't unusual for children to die at childbirth. And they had some where they'd lose one--they'd just name another one the same name. And I always thought that was kind of weird, but I know they did that. Bauman: You mentioned playing ball growing up. Did you play sports in school at all? Deranleau: Well, we played softball. We didn't have any football--we didn't have a football team. We didn't have any material for it. And we didn't play baseball, either. They had a local baseball team--we'd call it a town team. And everybody, whoever wanted to--and then they had some pretty decent players on that darn thing, for those days. Bauman: How about basketball? Deranleau: Well, we had a high school basketball team. And that was the size of that. I don't remember anybody other than just--well, maybe in grade school or middle school, you could play around then. Bauman: So you arrived here in about 1930— Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: --the years of the Great Depression. Wondering ways in which the Depression sort of impacted people here. Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, we were poor as church mice, you know. But everybody else was the same way. Hell, when I went in the service in '43, I had better conditions in the service than I had at home. And like I said, everybody was poor, so I thought that's the way everybody was. And they were, around here--most of them, some of them were better off than others, naturally. But it was pretty hard times for everybody. We didn't ever--went hungry, or anything like that. I don't mean to imply that. But, boy, we worked from the time were about 11 and 12 in the fields. And after we got a little older, we could hire out, if we got a chance. We'd get enough money for our school clothes that way. And it didn't take much--of course, we didn't get much either. You'd get maybe two bits an hour, you know. And boy, I'll tell you--that was work in those days, too. Picking up potatoes, and things like that. Bauman: I want to go back to school. So what year did you graduate high school, then? Deranleau: '42. Bauman: And how many people were in your class? Deranleau: I think there was just eight of us, or maybe a dozen. I don't know, they got to--I think Edith maybe brought you that picture of that group. Bauman: Yeah, small group. Deranleau: And some of us--I remember, one old teacher that--he was always talking about our sheepskins, when we graduated. And I said something about my sheepskin one day. And he said, yours won't have any fleece on it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. I think about that school--what a waste of my time and theirs. It was all my fault, I'm not blaming anybody but myself. But it was a fact. It was just stupid that I didn't want to learn more. Bauman: And you mentioned you joined the service in '43? Deranleau: Yeah, right after they--as soon as they got the notice here, I started. I had two brothers in the service at the time. And there were four of us in there, before it was over with. And everybody was in the service. And I just felt like I should be in, and I didn't have the guts to leave. And dad wasn't any spring chicken. So I hated to leave before—But once they got rid of that farm-- Bauman: So tell me about when you notice from the government about needing to leave. Deranleau: Well, we got we got notice from the government on March 3, and they just told us that our place-- condemned our places, and was taking them. And we got our notice a little bit before noon, in the mail. And I was plowing a field out there. And I came in for lunch, and they were, of course, telling me about it. And after I ate, I went back out and cranked up that tractor. And I bet I hadn't been plowing an hour and a half, and somebody called up there, and told them to get that tractor out of that field. I don't know who called, or any more about it than--the deal was you couldn't find out anything. And looking back, you understand why. But you sure didn't in those days. And then, the bad thing about that--it put all those farmers on the market for a new place, and immediately the land went up. And they weren't offering a lot. And a lot of the people didn't accept--they sued for it. And they did better. And Mr. Fletcher--Robert's dad--was involved in that. And, of course, there was an attorney that they had naturally--or, normally up there. And he handled the case--Lionel Powell, from Kennewick, who was an attorney. Bauman: How did your parents respond to the letter? Deranleau: Well, confused--everybody was. I guess they just finally told us that it was a government thing, and it was a secret. And they wouldn't--couldn't tell us, and they kind of accepted that. But first, they just were going to run you out of there, without any kind of explanation at all. And we never did get--it was world news when we found out that Richland was part of the atomic bomb thing. Bauman: So what happened with your parents, then? They sold the land-- Deranleau: Well, they settled in Kennewick, and Dad bought a couple little places there. Bauman: How long were they given to leave? Deranleau: Oh, boy. They extended the time to get off of there. I think probably it was fall before the folks left. And then, a lot of those crops, they had the prisoner of war camp, out on the Yakima there. And they had those prisoners in there, taking care of some of those crops. Because I remember a couple of them working up there in the grapes at our place. And one of them asked the other one why he was in the slammer. And he said he was a letter writer. Anyway, he forged checks. [LAUGHTER] He said he was a letter writer. Bauman: Was that camp--that camp was in existence for a while, before '43, there? The prisoner of war camp? Deranleau: It was what? Bauman: It was there before '43? Deranleau: I don't know. I don't think so. I think they put it up, but boy, they had people. They just put something like that up overnight. I'll bet it didn't take them two weeks to put the dang thing up. Bauman: And you said your parents then bought a place in Kennewick? Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: A farm, or-- Deranleau: Well, they bought a little place down on the corner of 19th and Washington. There was a credit union there for a while, and they're gone from there. I don't know what's in there now. But industry's moved that far down in there. And of course, that was all farming. That was one thing about the farms, too, in Richland. So many of them--now, we were up on just sagebrush bordered us. There was always land there, available, if you had the time to get it. In fact, Dad would--he'd water some of that--was watering some of those. He'd put in rye grass, because it'd stand the wind. It was hearty, you know? And he'd water. And he was figuring on getting two or three years of rye grass in that, to hold that sand a little bit, and then buying that. And it was things like that that they'd do. And they were pretty loose with--the ditch company, as long as they had water, they'd let them do things like that. But the ditch company owned a lot of Richland. I thought back a lot of times, and wondered, between the Federal Land Bank and the ditch company, what percentage of these little areas--and we weren't unique on that. All you had to do was go down the road to the next one--it was the same thing. Bauman: You talk about irrigation. How did the irrigation system work? I mean, what sort of irrigation pipes-- Deranleau: It was all real irrigation--ditches. Little ditches. We never heard of a sprinkler system, at that time. Bauman: Was there cement pipes, at all? Deranleau: Oh, well, yeah. Some of it was open ditch, and some of it was pipes. And some of it was even what they call continuous pipe. And I had never seen them make that. But the inside out of it--there wasn't any joints, and they had something they'd drag through the middle of it, put the cement around it, and then pull that. That's how they had to do. I never seen them do it. It wasn't very good. It wasn't as good as a good concrete pipe. And, of course, people, as they could, they were improving on that kind of stuff. Getting rid of that kind of junk, and putting in better. Bauman: So do you remember what your, or your parents', feelings were about--were you upset about having to move off the land? Angry? Deranleau: Well, they were all probably angry, and confused, more than angry, I think. Because just imagine--getting a letter that you--and on those farms, it was--every month of the year, there was something to do. In winter, you had more cows to milk, and stuff like that. So it wasn't where you had a lot of time off, or anything. Bauman: So do you remember where you were when you heard about what was happening at the Hanford site? About what was being built, and used for? Deranleau: No, I really don't. I was in Europe, and I come home--and they gave us a 30 day furlough. And we'd seen just enough combat that we'd been good candidates for over in Japan. And I think that was what they were figuring on. But anyway, I was on a train going back to South Carolina, where I had to report back to. And we were up in Montana, and the conductor come through there, and told us that they had dropped those bombs, and that the war was over. And I think that's the first time I ever knew what Hanford really did--as near as I remember, at least. Bauman: Do you remember your response when he came through and told you this? Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, I hate to sound like an idiot, but we were playing poker--a bunch of us--and we were more interested in the poker game. And--it was almost disbelief, I think. Bauman: And so how much longer were you in the service, then? When did you come back to the area? Deranleau: Oh, after that, I would say I was in the service five, six months. And we moved around a lot. I was in a chemical warfare outfit. It was a mortar outfit. We had big mortars, and were designed to shoot gas, if we had to. That's why we were in the chemical end of it. But we also had high explosives that we shot. And we would be attached to the infantry. But I don't know really how long we was. Here again, I went back to--I was in 89th Chemical. And when I got back to Colorado, I went over to where it was supposed to be, and--nothing there. So I saw another chemical outfit, right next door--90th. So I went over there. And I happened to walk right into the same company that I'd been assigned to. We'd all been assigned to that, and we didn't even know it. And I'll never forget the First Sergeant in there. He told me where to go, what barracks I could bunk in. So I went up to that barracks, and it was full. And I came back, and I said, that barracks is full, up there, I said. He said, go up and throw one of those guys out of there, and get a bunk. And I said, you go up and throw him out. [LAUGHTER] And that guy took a liking to me. And he was the biggest horse's neck ever to come down the pike. He was a hobo that had found it in the Army, and he was re-enlisted. But he was kind of a weird booger. But anyway, he took a liking to me. And hell, I could just get away with anything after that. It was kind of weird. Some of the guys used to razz me about being his buddy. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, we were doing a lot of moving around. They were just shifting everybody. We went down through Texas, and they brought us up to San Francisco for Army Day Parade. We looped around on those damn hills down there a lot. My wife told me I wasn't supposed to cuss, too, didn't she? But anyway, we were moving around a lot, and then finally ended up at Fort Lewis, where they booted us out. Bauman: Do you know, after your parents left the farm, do you know if it was torn down right away? Or did the government use it for anything? Deranleau: Well, ours was, I'm sure, because it was just a shack. And most of them were like that. And it was just the better houses that they kept for folks--like that one I was telling you, Officer's Club is what they called that house over there, where we first lived. And houses like that, they kept them around to put people in. But boy, I'll tell you, some of those houses around here, you could throw a cat through the wall of them--they didn't amount to much. Bauman: Do you have--are there any memories of growing up in Richland that really stand out to you? Any sort of humorous events, or things that you remember from growing up here, that really stand out to you? Deranleau: Oh, boy. Well, [LAUGHTER] I remember one time, a bunch of us went up to Brown's island. And that's about maybe eight, nine miles up the Colombia from here. And, of course, in those days, all those dams weren't in there and that was free water. And if you knew where to go, you could wade over to that in the summer. And if you didn't, you'd have to swim a little. But a bunch of us went up there. Anyway, we camped up there for pretty near a week. And we just hunted and fished, and loafed around there. But anyway, there was a little shack on this side of the river. And we'd come back, and I don't know whether we were getting ready to leave, or just that morning, we were maybe going to hunt rabbits or something. But we all had .22s. And one of those kids shot up into the corner of that damn thing, towards the ceiling. And that bullet--we tracked it afterwards, and it went down the ridgepole of that little shack, just probably that far. And hit a nail, and it dropped down on one of the kids' neck. Now, it just dropped, I think. But anyway, it burned his neck, and it just rolled off, you know. And I remember, he said, I'm shot! [LAUGHTER] We didn't pay any attention to him. And he said, I'm shot, you damn fools! [LAUGHTER] It just boiled down that that had just rolled there, but just a strange thing. It hit a knot, to begin with, and turned and went right up that ridgepole about two inches. And then, by that time, that little .22 was spent. But anyway [LAUGHTER] he was pretty excited, because he thought he was killed, and we didn't pay any attention to him. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I'm wondering, anything you--or, what do you think would be important for people to know about what it was like growing up in a small community of Richland in the 1930s, 1940s? Deranleau: Well, really, it was pretty good, because everybody knew everybody. And everybody associated with one another. There wasn't anybody that was left out, really. And like I said, we were all poor as church mice, but we thought that was the way the whole world was. And like I said, I don't think there were any of us around that went hungry. I really don't. Folks would can, and they canned everything. I remember one year, I had three sisters that were going to get married in the fall. And those girls and mom canned for their families to be, and our family. And they would can in those old wash boilers. And I don't know if you've ever seen that done, but what they'd do is put a little rack in the bottom that was made out of cedar. And it had holes bored about like that, so that the water could circulate through it. But those jars wouldn't sit right on where it was so ungodly hot. And they put those in there, and then boil them for a couple hours to seal those—but they’d put up even meat, my folks did. And mom, even, would can butter a time or two. Now, she didn't heat it, you know--she'd put it in salt water, and put it in those jars. And then, we'd open that when, I guess, when we didn't have butter otherwise. I don't really know. I think she just did that one year. But they'd put up all kinds of vegetables and fruit. And everybody had some of that, and you'd trade around. Or if people had surplus, they'd just give it to you. There was a lot of that, because-- Bauman: It was a way to preserve things for-- Deranleau: Pardon? Bauman: It was a ways to preserve things-- Deranleau: Yeah. And folks would also put up pork. And put so much salt you couldn't eat it hardly, and you'd have to soak it for a week before you could get close enough to it to eat it. [LAUGHTER] But we always--Dad would kill a steer in the fall. And we'd give some of that, probably, to the kids. Maybe they'd kill one later, and we'd get part of that, and stuff like that. Or neighbors-- Bauman: So it was very much a community, everyone-- Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: --sort of shared, and worked together. Well, any other things that we haven't talked about yet, that you remember, or that-- Deranleau: No. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today, and for sharing your memories and experiences. Deranleau: Okay. Bauman: Thank you very much. Deranleau: You betcha. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:24 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 125 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1930- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Deranleau Description An account of the resource Ray Deranleau moved to Richland, Washington in 1930 as a child. His family was displaced in 1943 when the Manhattan Project took over the land for the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/03/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Farming Irrigation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Battelle Cat Hanford Kennewick School https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe432dc936185b4193f34dada1571fc04.mp4 d88e1cd2b5fbc7af387dea2d3370d34b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F597191347c2206788f1ea5b0744d2ead.JPG 3e71992845a88984bc7c85915e72c7db Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lorraine Ferqueron Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Victor, are we ready? Victor Vargas: We’re ready. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Ruth Lorraine Fer— Lorraine Ferqueron: Ferqueron. Franklin: Ferqueron. Thank you, Lorraine. On October 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducting on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Lorraine about her experiences growing up in the Richland area and the forced evacuation in 1943. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Ferqueron: My name is Ruth Lorraine Ferqueron. It’s R-U-T-H L-O-R-R-A-I-N-E F-E-R-Q-U-E-R-O-N. Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, let’s start at the beginning. When and where were you born? Ferqueron: Pasco, Washington at Lady of Lourdes, May 7th, 1931. Those days, they kept the mother and the baby for ten days. So I came to Richland when I was ten days old. Franklin: And where in Richland did your family live? Ferqueron: Well we had—during the time, we had three different farms. One was out by basically where Battelle is now. I can’t really tell you exactly because I don’t have any points to base it from except the river. Franklin: Sure, but somewhere where the Battelle campus is now, okay. Ferqueron: Mm-hmm. Actually, that area was called Fruitdale when I was little. Franklin: Mm-hmm. I’ve seen that on some— Ferqueron: You’ve seen the Fruitdale? Franklin: --On some maps. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Some early maps—like ‘30s and ’40s maps. So you said your family had three farms—three acres? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Three areas that they farmed. Ferqueron: Three areas of farms. Franklin: Three areas of farms. So one’s in Fruitdale, or PNNL campus. Ferqueron: Yeah, but I was very young when that was going on. And then we moved in to—closer to Richland and had a farm up below where Tagaris is now. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And then the last one was out on—is it Wellsian Way that goes—not Wellsian, the road that goes to West Richland. Franklin: Van Giesen? Ferqueron: Below the Tri-City Court Club was—we had 118 acres there. Franklin: Is that Van Giesen? Ferqueron: Huh? Franklin: That goes to—is it Van Giesen that goes to— Ferqueron: Yeah, Van Giesen. Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: Right below the Tri-City Court Club. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: We had that until 1943, when we were forced out. Franklin: Can you describe your memory of that event? Ferqueron: That day? Yeah. I remember it. I was 12. These two men came to the door and told my father that they had declared eminent domain and they were taking the land. We had I think it was about three weeks to get out. There was seven of us children. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: We had a dairy farm there—well, my parents did, of course. I think we had 27 cows that Dad had to sell for five dollars apiece. Franklin: And I imagine that was pennies on the dollar. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, yes. And then we were given—Dad was given—everyone was given, I think, $5,000 for their property, no matter what size or anything. That was actually owed to the bank, so we never—my father and mother didn’t have any money. And we moved to Finley. Franklin: And then what did your parents—what did your family do in Finley? Ferqueron: Well, Dad did a lot of trucking and we had a small farm there. Franklin: But more like a truck farm? Ferqueron: Yeah, well, we had peppermint. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And asparagus. We had, I think, three cows that Dad kept. Two or three cows. My brother could tell you that more than I could. And we raised asparagus. Franklin: And how long did that go on, did your parents do that? Ferqueron: Until I was 15. We moved to the Richland Wye. Franklin: And why did your parents moved to the Richland Wye? Ferqueron: Dad went into working in construction. We left the farm and farming. We took one cow and moved to the Richland Wye—what’s now the Richland Wye. Franklin: Your favorite cow? Ferqueron: Yeah, probably. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did he work for Hanford, or in— Ferqueron: No, no. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: The only one in our family that worked for Hanford that I’m aware of is my grandfather. My grandfather had a farm here. His name was Augustus Long. He was the ditch back rider. A ditch back rider is someone who rides the irrigation ditches and checks it out and makes sure everything’s going fine. Started doing that on horseback. And then, I guess, the irrigation district or somebody bought him this truck to ride it in. After they took him off—took his land, he went to court, actually, and they paid him off. Franklin: Hmm. Ferqueron: Because they had to, to keep—it was all secret, you know. Everything at Hanford—nobody knew what was going on, even the people that worked there. He went to work for them for a short time, just to show them where everything was. He knew all the county—all the boundaries, and all the lines and where everything was. So he worked for them for a while—short time. Then he moved to Grandview. Franklin: Did he receive more money in the settlement because he took them to court? Ferqueron: No, no. Franklin: No? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: He just had to go through the extra step. Ferqueron: Yeah, he got extra because he worked for them for that short time. And then because he got as far as the court in Spokane, and they paid him off. In other words, they bribed him out of it. Franklin: Oh, so, but did he receive more money in the end for going to court? Ferqueron: Yeah, he probably did. I have no idea how much, but he probably did, yeah. Franklin: Sure. And how long—do you know approximately how long he worked for the government—for Hanford? Ferqueron: Oh, it was a matter of two or three months, probably. Franklin: Oh, okay, so not too significant. Ferqueron: Yeah, I don’t really remember, but it wasn’t long. Franklin: But he was part of that transition, though, right? Kind of showing them the lay of the land. Ferqueron: Yeah, he said the hardest thing he ever had to do was cut off the water to all those farms, and they just— Franklin: Watch them die. Ferqueron: Watch them die. And bulldozed under—they were actually bulldozed. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, many of them were. Ferqueron: That’s why—I hear people today say, well, it was a sand pile when we got here. Well, of course it was. Franklin: Yeah. That helps erase that evidence of human habitation. Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. Franklin: And make sure people don’t want to come back. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—so your father—or your grandfather was the only person that worked for— Ferqueron: Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s true, because—it was a very traumatic thing, because one day I had my complete family here. And three weeks later, they were scattered all over the state. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: And I lost—I could walk from our house to grandpa’s house. And then they went up to Grandview, I mean, and we just didn’t get to see them as often. Franklin: Right, right, because of the—not as much—farther distance, not as good of roads. Ferqueron: Well, eventually, he moved back to Benton City and had a farm up there. But in those days, going from where we lived in Finley to Benton City was quite a trip. Franklin: I bet. I bet that would have been an all-day affair. Ferqueron: Yeah. My mother told me when they were children to go to Kennewick to shop, it was all day, because they had a horse and a wagon. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: They went to Kennewick and back and it was an all-day trip. Franklin: So when do your parents and grandparents—when did your family come to the Richland area? Ferqueron: Yeah. My great-grandparents came here just about the turn of the century. But as far as I can figure, about 1900. Maybe a little earlier. And my great-grandfather farmed the area somewhere between where WinCo is now and the Yakima River. Franklin: Okay. And then did they—when they came, were there already—was there already irrigation piping here? Was there an irrigation district? Ferqueron: I don’t remember—I mean, I don’t really know. I never was told. My grandparents and my mother and her siblings came—let’s see, she was born in 1905 in Nebraska, and she was three when they came here. Franklin: So in 1908. Ferqueron: 1908, yeah. Franklin: Okay. I know there were irrigation lines— Ferqueron: And there was irrigation then. Franklin: --at that time. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: 1900 is a little— Ferqueron: A little early. Franklin: A little early. Did your— Ferqueron: But— Franklin: Oh, sorry. Ferqueron: They had the Yakima River. So they had a water supply and they-- Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: I know you’ve probably heard about the Rosencrans and the water wheel they had here on the river? Franklin: No, no, tell me about that. Ferqueron: Well, I don’t really know much about it, but there are pictures of it available somewhere. Franklin: Okay. I’ll have to look at— Ferqueron: The Rosencrans family had that. Franklin: Okay. Great. Thank you. Ferqueron: And that was—that was probably the start of the irrigation right there. Around that time. Franklin: Right. From the research I’ve done, it shows that kind of later in 1906, 1908, the White Bluffs Irrigation Company and the Hanford Irrigation Company, which were formed by kind of collected capital on the west side of the state laid down the irrigation piping, bought the land— Ferqueron: Miles and miles of it, yeah. Franklin: Right. And then sold the land to people, and then people would have to pay monthly irrigation bills. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: Whether they used the water or not. It was kind of a scheme to make a bunch of money. Ferqueron: Well, it’s still that way. Franklin: Right, it is. But I’ve always been kind of interested about the pre—because it sounds like there were smaller attempts by families at creating some irrigation tunnels and ditches. Ferqueron: I don’t know if there’s anybody still living that would know. Franklin: Yeah, it’s—the nature of the history is—physically the evidence has been wiped off the map. Ferqueron: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was wiped out with the bulldozers and everything—that was all— Franklin: So your great-grandparents that came, that would have been your father’s side? Ferqueron: My mother’s. Franklin: Your mother, oh, so then your mother was born in Nebraska? Ferqueron: My father, on my Sloppy side of the family, I don’t really know when they came. But my father was born in Prosser—well, AmaRosa district outside of Prosser—in 1905. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: He was the third baby born in Benton County. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Well, you know, years ago—before 1905, there was no Benton County. It was Yakima County. Franklin: Yup. Ferqueron: Then they divided it, and Dad was born after it was made a county. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: I don’t know exactly where they came from. They did live here in Richland for a number of years because my mother and father went to school from first grade to, I believe, fifth. And then his family moved away. And then he came back in his 20s and went to work for John Weidle and Thad Grosscup. There’s streets named after them in West Richland. Franklin: John Weidle and who? Ferqueron: Thad Grosscup. Franklin: Oh, yeah, Grosscup. Ferqueron: Yeah. Yeah, I knew both of those men. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: He was working in wheat fields all over here and Idaho and everything. And anyway, my parents married here in 1930. Franklin: In Richland? Ferqueron: Oh, actually, married in Kennewick because the old Methodist church in Kennewick on Kennewick Avenue. Franklin: Oh, right. And then how did your parents meet? Ferqueron: In school. Franklin: Oh, in school. Well, right, first through fifth. But how did they reconnect later—I mean, were they both in Richland at the same time, or— Ferqueron: Yeah, he came back to work for Thad-- Franklin: Well, right. Ferqueron: --in what is now West Richland. And mom worked for John Dam. You know, John Dam Plaza? Franklin: Yup. Ferqueron: Named after him. Well, she worked for John for—right out of high school. She graduated in the old high school here in 1922, and went to work for John Dam. Franklin: And what did she do? Ferqueron: And Dad was in and out of the—she was a clerk. Franklin: Oh, in— Ferqueron: In his store, mm-hm. Franklin: Oh, at his store. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, John Dam had a—well, it was like a department store. He sold everything. He was also our unofficial banker. Franklin: As many storekeepers often were in those days. Ferqueron: Well, he gave credits through the winter to the farmers and then they would pay it off in the fall with the crops. Franklin: Right, yeah, no, that’s a— Ferqueron: An old— Franklin: A long-standing tradition in agriculture. Ferqueron: Yeah. A lost tradition now. Franklin: Yes. Although, sadly, sometimes, abused and—like the sharecropping system of the South. But usually not quite so much here, luckily. So graduated from Richland. Okay, wow. So you said you grew up—you lived in three different farms here. Ferqueron: Yeah. And went to school here in Richland at what is now Lewis and Clark. Franklin: Went to school at Lewis and Clark. Okay. And how come your parents moved so much in the 12 years between the three different farms? Do you know why they--? Ferqueron: You know, I really don’t remember. Some of the farms—two of the farms were rented. So that might have been why. He found a better place. There was a time when we moved away from Richland. We lived in Corfu, which does not exist now. Franklin: In where, sorry? Ferqueron: Corfu. It’s right across the mountain from White Bluffs. Franklin: Could you— Ferqueron: Right out of Othello. Franklin: Could you spell that for me? Ferqueron: Corfu, C-O-R-F-U. Franklin: Oh, okay. I would not have spelled it that way. Thank you. Ferqueron: And as far as we know, my sister was the only person ever born there. My mother was a postmaster there. All the outlying farmers would come in and get their mail there. Franklin: Mm. Do you know if there was a store there, or was it just a— Ferqueron: Yes, there was a store, but it was gone. It was abandoned. Actually, Corfu was founded, I think, for the railroad workers. Franklin: Oh. Ferqueron: To have a place to stay. And we lived in—it was a hotel, and we lived on the second floor, and, well, part of the time on the first floor. And my mother was postmaster. Franklin: Interesting. Was it a functioning hotel at that point? Ferqueron: No. No, we were the only residents in there. Franklin: Only residents there. Oh, wow. Ferqueron: We had lots of room. Franklin: So it was really just the postal designation to deliver mail at that point. And was that— Ferqueron: We had a lot of sheep herders go through. Franklin: Oh, I would imagine. Interesting. Ferqueron: I don’t know if you know about the sheep herds that went through. They were—oh, about four of five thousand sheep per herd, you know. Franklin: Right, and it was often— Ferqueron: They would go up, and go across Grand Coulee Dam before it was closed to them. Franklin: And it was often—I don’t know if it was this far north, but often sheep herders were Basque men? People from the Basque region? Do you know of— Ferqueron: I just remembered, when my father was in his early teens, he was a sheep herder for a summer or two. Franklin: Oh, really? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—in the same area? Ferqueron: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: Is Corfu—was that where part of the Hanford reservation extends over? Ferqueron: You know, I don’t know if it goes that far or not. I doubt it, but I don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: I know people are surprised when I tell them that there’s ice caves up there. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: Yeah, the White Bluffs range there. Yeah. We used to go into those ice caves, and the people in Corfu and another little town up there used to keep their meat and stuff in there. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Refrigeration, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that was a very prized thing before electric refrigeration. Ferqueron: Well, it’s been there since the Ice Age. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: What was the other little town? Ferqueron: You know, I just don’t remember now. Franklin: That’s okay. So your parents—your mother worked for John Dam for a time, your father was kind of a wheat farmer— Ferqueron: Yeah, and— Franklin: Then they settled down and lived in these three different farms. Now, the last one you lived in in Richland, that was one that your parents had bought? Ferqueron: They were buying it. Franklin: Yeah--or they were buying it, they had a mortgage on it. Ferqueron: Yeah, they did pay quite a bit on it when we lost it. But we lost—they just lost all of that. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: So. Franklin: And it was a cattle ranch? Ferqueron: It was a dairy farm, yeah. Franklin: Dairy farm, sorry. Ferqueron: Yeah. As far as I remember, we had about 27 cows. We had a huge pasture. Dad rented out pasture land to horses, too. Franklin: Mm. Was that irrigated pasture, or--? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Oh, just for— Ferqueron: It had a pond, but— Franklin: Oh, it had a pond, okay. Ferqueron: I only remember that, because I was sliding around on it one time on the ice and went through the ice and cut my ankle open. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: That’s why I remember it. Franklin: So tell me about growing up in kind of this small agricultural town— Ferqueron: Well, it’s— Franklin: And your childhood and school and friends. Ferqueron: Well, everybody knew you, and I was related to half the town, because I had--two uncles had places here, and at least one aunt and her husband. Well, I always say, it was so small in town that if I did anything wrong, my father knew about it in about 30 seconds, because—[LAUGHTER]—the whole town would call him and tell him, you know? But it was just a really easy-going good time. Franklin: How did the Depression affect your family? Did it affect the town? Ferqueron: Well, about like anybody else, except we had meat, because we had cows, we had pigs, we had chickens. Mom would buy a bunch of little chicks every year. We grew—my mother canned everything. We had lots of food. Clothes and everything, that was a little bit of a problem because of the money. But we did pretty good because—and I don’t remember ever being hungry. Well, I had the kind of parents that if there was food, we got it first anyway. Franklin: Right. So you might not have known at the time— Ferqueron: I don’t remember it being an unhappy time at all. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: But now I realize how much I learned from my mother of how to get by cheaply. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah! Did you ever go to Hanford or White Bluffs at all? Did you know anybody at Hanford? Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. We went through there. I did know them, but now—except for one teacher and I can’t remember his name—and he also taught at Kennewick later. I had him for a teacher there. That was 65 years ago that I graduated. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Of course, of course. A lot of focus is on—especially recently with the creation of the National Park and some of these stories of White Bluffs and Hanford are becoming more well-known, but Richland is also a community that was— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: --displaced by the— Ferqueron: We were very affected by it. I mean, a very emotional thing. There was one man that when they told him he had to get out, he died later that day of a heart attack. Now, whether or not he had a heart attack coming on, who knows? But he did die of a heart attack. Well, that hit us all pretty hard. And then having to say goodbye to my grandparents, and my cousins, and aunts and uncles— Franklin: Have you ever been to any of the—I know they had the Hanford-White Bluffs reunions—were Richland people ever included in those? Ferqueron: I don’t know about—we never were included as far as I know with Hanford and White Bluffs, but we had our own. It was called the Old Timers’ Picnic. Franklin: Old Timers’ Picnic, okay. Ferqueron: And you could not come to that unless you were here prior to 1943. I remember one occasion there, I was living in the south at the time, in South Carolina—came out for vacation. I was 36 years old, and I’m sitting at this table, and Mrs. John Dam, who had not seen me since I was a child, came up to me and said, you must be Edith Long’s little girl. And she patted me on the head like I was a little child. I’ll never forget it. I could not believe she remembered me all that time. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: That was shortly before she died. Franklin: Wow, that’s something. Ferqueron: She was in her 90s then. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, memories are funny that way, huh? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I mean, some things we remember crystal clear, and others kind of seem to get fuzzy. Ferqueron: Just the other day, someone asked me, well, who was John Dam? And its kind of surprised me, because I just assumed everybody knew who he was. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And he was county commissioner, too. Franklin: Yeah. How much of—do you live in Richland now? Ferqueron: I live at the Richland Wye, yes. Franklin: Okay. How did you feel coming back to the Richland Wye and seeing this different town that had been— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: --created, and this kind of suburban landscape that had been placed over what had once been farmland. How did that make you feel when you came back? Ferqueron: Well, it made me—it was not a good thing. Bad memories. Losing—my dad’s losing his farm that he’d worked so many years and everything for—it basically shortened his life some. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Ferqueron: Oh! Franklin: Oh, it’s okay. Ferqueron: Well, it means I got to take a pill. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: So I need my bag over there. Franklin: Oh, sure. Emma, can you grab that? And then we have water right here for you. Ferqueron: Yeah. I forgot about it. I would have turned it off. Emma Rice: This bag? Franklin: Believe me, it’s all right. Ferqueron: Well, if I don’t, I might forget it. Franklin: Right, no, believe me, it’s— Ferqueron: You know, when you’re 85, you’ve got to be careful. Rice: No, you—[LAUGHTER] You’re good. Ferqueron: I’ve got water here. I’ll be fine. Rice: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: But it was also a little complicated, because living at the Richland Wye, we had one time and Richland had another time. It was an hour’s difference between us. Franklin: Huh? Really? Ferqueron: Yes. Yes, Richland city proper—property was on—an hour ahead of us. Franklin: Huh! Oh, is that—that must be before they— Ferqueron: That’s before the government gave out— Franklin: --firmed up the time zones, right? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Interesting. That’s very—that I had not heard at all. Ferqueron: We wanted to go to Richland to a movie, we had to go at a different time. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Is there any—I’ve heard there’s still a few buildings in Richland left from the pre-’43 days. Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a few houses. The Carlson house as far as I know is still here. And John Dam’s store, I think, is still here. Down there, off of Lee, where they have that roundabout with the metal tree? Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: His store stood in right there somewhere. I’m pretty sure that building is still there. Franklin: Oh, really? Ferqueron: But I’m not positive to that at all. Franklin: Of course. Ferqueron: It would be on the corner of Lee and Jadwin. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: But everything has changed so much. And then there’s—across the street, on Lee going into the park, on the left-hand side, I’m pretty sure that’s an original building. Well, maybe not original to Richland, but it was in Richland before Hanford. It was, I think, a bar. And something else, because I remember going in there and asking Dad for a dime so that the six of us—at the time there was just six of us—could buy some candy. And for a dime, we got a whole bagful. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: And I remember the butcher—George Gress was his name. Had a butcher shop. He was German, and he made these wonderful sausages that were ready to eat. Us kids would go down and stand in front of his store and look in the window at it. Ha! He had such a good heart. And we’d send our youngest brother in because he was so cute—in to see George. And he—Dean, my brother—would come out with sausage hung around his neck. [LAUGHTER] And we’d all have some sausage. I don’t know if my parents ever found out about that or not. If they had, they’d have put a stop to it. Franklin: Right, right. What was—I gather that a lot of the street names were changed when the government came in. Ferqueron: Oh, yes. Franklin: And what was—you mentioned the John Dam store was on Lee and Jadwin, so I imagine there were streets there. Ferqueron: It is now. I don’t know that there was a—if there was, I don’t remember it. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: Yeah. I would go down there to cash—I was old enough to go and cash the dairy checks that Dad got for his milk and stuff. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: And instead of him coming in to do it, or my mother—when I was at school I’d go and cash them there. But I don’t remember there being any streets. Franklin: Okay. Do you—I know Howard Amon Park was there before the— Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So do you have any memories of Howard Amon Park? Ferqueron: Oh [LAUGHTER] yes. Well, first of all it wasn’t quite as large now. But Howard, as far as I know, gave that—he died before I was born, but I knew all the other Amons. Franklin: Sure. Ferqueron: But I think he gave them the lease on that land for eternity as a park. And that concrete gate they have down there, I remember that as being larger, but of course I was a child, you know, so maybe it wasn’t larger. But no, the one story I remember about that was our class had an Easter egg hunt down there one year. I was one of the tallest in the class, so I could find all the Easter eggs. They were real eggs. [LAUGHTER] I had a small washpan full. [LAUGHTER] And the teacher asked me if I’d share them with the children. And I said, oh, yeah, glad to! Because we had a farm and we had 500 chickens laying eggs, you know? And I did not want to take home a bunch of boiled eggs to my mother. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, you were probably eating enough eggs. Ferqueron: But what I really remember is the winter of the egg hunt, got a chocolate bunny about this high. And I got that bunny. So I didn’t care about the eggs, I won that chocolate bunny. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right! Can you talk a little bit about going to school in Richland and kind of just— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: You know, the teachers and the kinds of subjects you learned and the classes taught and just kind of how that experience was for you? Ferqueron: Well, it was just really average, except there wasn’t anywhere near as many of us, of course. One of my teachers was Miss Carlson, who was a friend of my mother’s. Now, when I came into the Kennewick School District, I had gone to school the first year in Corfu. We had a two-room schoolhouse, and I was the entire elementary school. I was the only student in the elementary school. Franklin: Who— Ferqueron: And there was three high school students. And our teacher was a high school teacher, and he didn’t know what to do with me. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: So he read me stories all day long. Whenever he got a chance, he’d read me stories and teach me a little bit. So when I came to Richland, I was very far behind. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And Miss Carlson got one of the other students to spend a couple hours with me in the library to catch me up. So I caught up to the third grade, and then from then on, it was pretty easy. Pretty good. Franklin: Who was the—so you went to a four-person school in Corfu— Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, actually, the second year in Corfu, it was five, because my brother joined me in the elementary school. We doubled our elementary school. Franklin: Doubled the elementary school. Were your family religious at all? Did they attend church in Richland or Corfu? Ferqueron: No, no, we didn’t. But my mother was a religious person, and we got some there. Now, I don’t remember going to church there. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: Of course, later on, I did. We all—and my parents decided that the seven of us could choose our own religions. So they didn’t push us in any particular direction. But my father ended up a Catholic. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And my mother was baptized in the Baptist church. And I go to a Baptist church. Franklin: That’s very—I don’t know—very progressive kind of stance on education—or on Christianity—on religion for that time period. Because so many preexisting— Ferqueron: Well, they were always very strong. I never heard my parents say “if” you get out of high school; it was always “when” you get out—“when” you graduate. I had one brother who didn’t, but he had some vision problems, and he went into the Air Force and finished in the Air Force. So we’re all graduates. And I have a couple—a brother that’s a graduate of—I guess Washington. I’m not sure. He did it—he was in the Army, so he had some education in Berlin, El Paso, Texas, wherever he could get it. Franklin: Right, sure. Ferqueron: But education was always pushed in our family. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I mean, it’s so fundamental for success later in life. Ferqueron: Right. Well, it’s really the reason we left Corfu and went back to Richland, is because, obviously, my brother and I were not learning anything in Corfu. We were just not. And the teacher was not a good teacher. So they pulled us out and we came down here to—because of us getting education. Franklin: Right. Are you—where are you—you said you had seven brothers and—or you’re of seven--? Ferqueron: I’m the oldest of seven. Franklin: You’re the oldest of seven, okay. Ferqueron: I have five brothers and one sister. Franklin: So I can imagine, then, that they—staying in Corfu, they would be looking at kind of a legacy of not so good edu—you know. Ferqueron: Right. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that makes a lot of—and how close are you all in age? Are you fairly close in age? Ferqueron: Well, let’s see. Yeah, we are, except for two of them. There’s me, and 18-19 months later is my brother, Verne, whom you’ve already interviewed. Then there’s Roy, who’s another year, year-and-a-half. And Lorne is a year, and then my sister comes a year after Lorne. And then there’s Dean and then five years after Dean—surprise, there’s Dale. [LAUGHTER] So that’s how we run. All pretty close. Franklin: Right. Most families have at least one surprise. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: What did your mother do in this time, you know—did she work on the farm with your father? Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. She did until she became allergic to the sun. Franklin: Oh! There’s a lot of sun here. Ferqueron: But most of her time was spent either with us children, or she was canning. She had a garden. Of course our garden was quite large. And then the farm was alfalfa and dairy. But we had a big garden. Franklin: Did she or your father ever take any cash work before the government came? You know, any kind of off-the-farm jobs or anything? Ferqueron: No. Well, yeah, wait. When the war came, we were still on the farm, and Dad went to work at Big Pasco. You heard of Big Pasco? Franklin: Yeah, the holding—the supply depot. Ferqueron: Right, supplies for the Army. He worked there for a short while—maybe a year. I don’t remember how long. I do remember why he quit. He had a major that was a 90-day wonder, they used to call them. He’d been an officer for 90 days. And anyway, he and Dad got into it over something, and Dad says, well, I quit. And he said, well, you can’t quit, because you’re working for the Army. You’re frozen in the job. And Dad said, well, that’s just tough, and walked off. Two days later, this officer and a sergeant showed up at our house and was going to take Dad off to the Army. Well, he was 35. Dad just lined us kids up in the yard and said, these are my six kids, and there’s a seventh one on the way. I am a farmer, so therefore I’m deferred. And I remember the major getting terribly angry, and the sergeant actually drug him back to the Jeep. He was so angry! And as they were driving away,Dad said, oh and by the way, I have an ulcer. Which the Army wouldn’t touch him with an ulcer. I remember that so clearly because it was absolutely hilarious. Well, that was my father, the way he did things. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to say about Richland before the war that I haven’t asked you about? Ferqueron: Well, I remember the day that Pearl Harbor happened. Franklin: Oh, okay, yeah. Ferqueron: I was listening to the radio in the house, and my mother was outside talking to somebody, some lady. And I heard the announcement that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and so I went outside and I asked my mother, where’s Pearl Harbor? And she said, in Hawai’i. And I told her what happened, and I’ll never forget her remark. She said, thank God my boys are little. And that’s about all I remember about that. Franklin: That’s— Ferqueron: That particular day. Franklin: Yeah, that’s very searing. Ferqueron: But I had uncles who ended up in the war and all that kind of stuff. No, I don’t remember an awful lot about it. Franklin: Sure, sure. Ferqueron: Well, I do remember, they had a rubber drive. And we had a rubber—we had a tire swing in our yard that Dad had put up for us. And us kids, we scoured that farm for rubber and metal for the defense, you know? We were getting ready to cut the tire down, and Dad made us stop. He said, no, you’ve given enough. He said, you’re not giving up your swing. Franklin: Aw. Ferqueron: I do remember that. Franklin: That’s really sweet. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Did things economically start to improve for your family during the war? Ferqueron: They did, when the war come, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Until, of course, the evacuation. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: I kind of already asked you about how coming back made you feel. When you look at Hanford and its kind of legacy, you must have an interesting—you have a different perspective from most people that came here during the war. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about— Ferqueron: Sometimes I’m resentful because of what happened with my parents and what they lost—what we all lost, everybody who ever lived here. But then again, you just kind of live with it. But I do get upset when people don’t want to talk about anything but Hanford. I want them to remember there was something here 200 years before. Because we had Indians here. We had woolly mammoths walking up and down the Columbia River, for heaven’s sake. And what about the Indian history? I don’t hear much about Indian history. Franklin: No, that’s a good question. Ferqueron: There was Indians living up there! Franklin: Right. Did you ever have—did you ever meet any Wanapum or Yakama people? Ferqueron: I never met a Wanapum until years later—in fact, about five or six years ago. But I did know some Yakamas, but not while I was living in Richland. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that’s—several groups of people have been alienated from the land here. Ferqueron: Right, yeah. Oh, the Indians—they were done really rotten. Franklin: Yeah, yes they were. Ferqueron: Long before we were. I never could figure out— Franklin: I teach— Ferqueron: Why do we call Indians savages when our people were really the savages? Stealing their land and everything. Franklin: Yes, and indiscriminately killing them. Ferqueron: Yes, that’s how I—well, our admiration of President Roosevelt went into the dumper when Hanford happened. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: Yeah, there were a lot of people mad at him, because—I never did see it—but I’ve been told many times that there was a letter written by Roosevelt, saying that we could have the land back at the price they paid for it when they were through with it. Well, when the time came, and the government left here, he said, no, he’d never written it. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: And nobody could ever prove it. But I just heard about it; I never did see it. Franklin: When you—can you describe about when you and your family found out about the atomic bombs dropped, that one of them was—part of that was produced at Hanford, and Hanford’s connection to that. How did that— Ferqueron: Well, it was kind of a shock to even realize it was something as powerful as that. But the day that we found out was when Dad came home with a newspaper, and it was in there. And he said, well, now we finally know what they were doing out there and why they were doing it. Franklin: Did that change anyone’s feelings about what had happened, or— Ferqueron: I don’t— Franklin: Or not? Ferqueron: Some people it did. I went to a funeral a few years ago for one of the Richland—for Eddie Supplee’s wedding. It was quite a family of Supplees here. They were still bitter. He was very bitter before he died. I talked to him not long before he died and he was very bitter about Hanford, and it had been so many years. So it was a lot of people with a lot of resentment. Franklin: Did you ever connect—do you know if there’s much connection between the displaced peoples of Hanford who later resettled and then the so-called down-winders, people that were affected later by releases from Hanford? Do you know if there was ever any talk between those two groups? Ferqueron: No, not that I know of. Not that I’m aware of. I know one thing—when the construction workers came in—of course, they spilled out all over, because there was over 30,000 of them— Franklin: Yeah huge influx. Ferqueron: And they were settling all over in Kennewick and everywhere. Some of them were not a good class of people. You know, they were—I met a few of them, and they were pretty bad. But when everybody left Richland, they left the cream of the crop. We got some really great people in. We got a lot of good scientists. We are really quite an area for science and everything. Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: How does that make you—you sound a little—both happy that they’re there, but obviously then there’s this other side of it where— Ferqueron: Well, I— Franklin: --had this not happened, that would still be—that your family would still have a place here. Ferqueron: I’m just the sort of a person—I adjust just very easily. I’ll say, well, this is life; this is the way it’s going. Why—there’s nothing I can do about it so, just enjoy what you have. Franklin: So you came back to the Wye when you—how old were you when your parents— Ferqueron: I was 15 when we first came to the Wye, and I’m still living in the same house. Franklin: Oh, in the house that had been— Ferqueron: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: Well, it was down on Columbia Park Trail. At the time it was Columbia Drive, but it set right almost on the road. In the Flood of ’48 or whatever that year was—it was about that far from our front door. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: But my dad moved it up on a little hill. And, yeah, I’m still living in that house. Franklin: You are still living in that house. Ferqueron: Uh-huh, yeah. I still own it. Franklin: So the house from— Ferqueron: The house that we moved from Finley to Richland Wye in was a two—three-room house. There wasn’t enough bedrooms—it was all that we could get at the time. But behind it was a Quonset hut left over from the war. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: So Dad moved—and Mom moved—my brothers and me out there, because I was 15, and I could be out there at night to—whatever the kids—boys needed, and to keep them from killing one another. You know how that is with—[LAUGHTER]—boys. Franklin: Oh, I know. Ferqueron: So we slept in the Quonset hut until Dad moved the house up on the hill where it is now, and added to it. And they raised seven kids, and the two of them, and an uncle who stayed with us for a while, in a two-bedroom house, very small house. Bunk beds all over the place, but we made out. And then years later, my brother put a basement in there. He lives in the basement now and I live upstairs. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s— Ferqueron: We both own the house. Franklin: Neat. Ferqueron: It’s only about 75 years old. [LAUGHTER] It’s falling down around us, but we’re both in our 80s, so— Franklin: Was that house brought here during World War II, or does that predate it? Ferqueron: It was sitting there—I don’t know what the history on it. I know my parents bought it for $1,000—that and the land under it. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: That’s under it now. Yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—and so what were your—so you moved back at 15, and then what—you graduated from the— Ferqueron: Kennewick High. Franklin: Kennewick High. Ferqueron: ’49. Franklin: ’49. And then what did you do? Ferqueron: It was just a few months later I went in the Navy. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: So I was in the Navy, and went to Bay Bridge, right out of Baltimore—not Baltimore—yeah, Baltimore for boot camp. And then I went to San Diego for school, and— Franklin: And what did you do in— Ferqueron: I was a commissaryman. What I did was—to put it as simple as I can—is I ran a large, very large restaurant. I was a crew boss. There was actually two of us, because it was—our shifts were 18-hour shifts. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: So, I’d work five days one week and two days the next, and the other girl would take over for the opposite watch. Anyway, it was like running a huge restaurant, except I didn’t have to worry about the menu; that came out of Washington, DC. I did that for two years. Then I got married, and married an engineman from South Carolina. That’s where the Ferqueron name comes from. We traveled around quite a bit for a couple years—well, about four or five years. Had one daughter. And he became an officer—a submarine officer. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Ferqueron: In Hawai’i. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: So I’ve lived in Hawai’i, I’ve lived in California—my daughter was born in California—Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Florida, and Washington. [LAUGHTER] I think I’ve got them all, anyway. That was over a 30-year period. Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Richland area? Ferqueron: In 1988—’84. ’84. Franklin: 1984. Ferqueron: ’84. My mother had a very mild heart attack, and I sold my house in South Carolina and came out here to take care of her. And just stayed, because she left me the house—me and my brother—the house. And I went to work for churches here in childcare. I worked for five different churches. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: And I retired from doing that, and now I do a lot of volunteer work. Franklin: So when you left Richland, or the area of Richland, it was kind of this closed town. Ferqueron: It was very—yeah. And small, compared to today. Franklin: Right, smaller and also wholly government owned. Ferqueron: Oh, yes. Franklin: And when you came back, Richland was, you know— Ferqueron: Wide open, yeah. Franklin: Wide open. And then shortly after, production at Hanford ceased. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about that a bit, how you felt about that, and kind of watching that legacy of Hanford stop. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, I just—I really don’t know how I really felt about it. I just went about my way, and not too concerned. Although I wondered—all of that money and stuff in there and they’re closing it down. You know? And they might have to open it up again at some time. You never know. Franklin: That’s true. Ferqueron: I didn’t spend too much worrying about the past. Franklin: Did you keep in touch with a lot of people from old Richland when you lived around, and--? Ferqueron: No. They were so scattered that I didn’t—I lost contact with a lot of them, including some relatives. Franklin: What about when you came back to Richland, did you start to rebuild those relationships again? Ferqueron: No, uh-unh. No, most of my relationships, even today, are from Kennewick High. Franklin: Oh, okay, right. Ferqueron: Yeah, because I have lunch with the people that are still living here. I have lunch with them once a month. Franklin: Sure. I mean, that makes sense because they weren’t scattered forcibly. Ferqueron: Right, and the people who went to high school in Richland, we really had nothing to do with, you know. Franklin: Right, because they were— Ferqueron: Right, entirely different— Franklin: Entirely different. And you weren’t welcome in Richland anymore, right? I mean— Ferqueron: Well, they didn’t understand how we felt about it. How could they understand? Franklin: Right, right. To them it had been an opportunity. Ferqueron: Yeah, and they came here, and they thought they built the town up from a sand pile to what it is today. You know? Franklin: Interesting. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about today that you’d like to mention? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Well— Ferqueron: I do have something I have arguments with people about and that’s why the Richland Wye is called the Richland Wye. They all assume it’s the highway. It’s not. It’s an old Indian trail. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: And the reasons why is because the Yakama tribes would come down from Yakima and camp at the Richland Wye. The Wanapums and the tribes up that way would come down, cross the river, approximately where we cross it now—the Yakima. They would meet the Yakama tribe there; they would go on to Walla Walla for the pow-wows, and that forms the Richland Wye. Franklin: Oh, interesting. And where did you— Ferqueron: I used to go to the meetings for the Daughters of Washington State. I didn’t quite qualify—my family didn’t come quite—or I couldn’t prove that they came quite soon enough for me to be a complete Daughter of Washington, but— Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And then our particular section broke up. People started dying off, and—I was quite a bit younger than some of them. This is where I learned more about it. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, they do have a marker out there now that says heritage trail, but there’s no explanation as to what it is. Franklin: Oh. Ferqueron: And I think the Indians should have credit for that! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I mean, they certainly had extensive trading and travel networks and that things we— Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. They did that once every year, I think. Franklin: Yeah, I believe so. Ferqueron: So it formed a trail. Franklin: Yeah, there’s a lot there that we first ignored, and then the interest was in some cases too late for-- Ferqueron: Well, everything is focused on Hanford now. And Battelle and the companies that are here now, and the labs out there, and Battelle. I think all that stuff is great, but to me, I still see a farm out there. Franklin: Right, right. I mean, how could you not? I mean, you had—you grew up there. Ferqueron: Right. Well, from ten days old. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Exactly. Ferqueron: I can still picture my grandfather’s farm just as if it was still there. Franklin: Well, Lorraine, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. It’s been really insightful, and—yeah, I think it’s really important to have a voice of those pre-war communities and that transition period, and how there’s this other narrative of Hanford that sometimes gets lost in the telling of the story. Ferqueron: Yeah. I don’t want it to get lost. I want those people to be remembered. Because they gave a big sacrifice. That was a huge sacrifice. Franklin: Yeah, it is. Ferqueron: Even though it was forced, it was still—there is one other story I heard, and one of the farms here was owned by a woman and her cherries were ready to pick, and they told her she couldn’t pick them. She had to get out first. And this is a story I heard from the time I was 12. She had a shotgun loaded with rock salt. You know what rock salt is? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Ferqueron: Of course. Well, she shot the FBI man. Hurt him pretty bad. And I remember everybody in town was, well, she’s going to go to jail. You shoot an FBI man, you’re going to go to jail. Nothing was ever done, she picked her cherries and moved out. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Well, it was too secret; they couldn’t. Franklin: Right, because if they had taken her to court, that arrest record would be— Ferqueron: There would be reporters in no time. It would’ve been all over the country in no time at all. Franklin: To kind of make that go away, right? Wow, that’s really something. That’s a great story. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Well, Lorraine, again, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today. Ferqueron: Well, I want to do anything I can to make sure people remember there was a Richland before Hanford started. Franklin: Yeah, and we’re going to add this oral history right by your brother’s, and so have that as a great—again, thank you for helping expand that— Ferqueron: The other children in our family are too young, and my brother Roy is so deaf he couldn’t hear you if he tried, and he doesn’t like to think about those times at all. And he was born in Richland. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: But a midwife who later became our grandmother—she married my—she had a farm here in Richland, and she lost her husband in ’35, and my grandmother lost his wife—my grandmother—in ’36. And they farmed alongside one another for many, many years. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Ferqueron: And then they got married. After we were all grown. So one day at school, there was a whole bunch of kids there that were just other kids; the next day they were my cousins. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really something. Ferqueron: Yeah, it was interesting. Franklin: Well, again, I can’t thank you enough, Lorraine. Ferqueron: Oh, well, I’ve enjoyed it, really. Franklin: Oh, good! Me too. Me too. Okay, so we’ll-- Ferqueron: I wish I remembered more. I was only 12, 13. Franklin: Well, that gives you enough, though, you know, concrete experiences that you do remember. Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a lot of family names that I remember. And, well, like I said, I’ve gone to a couple funerals from there. But those are pretty much gone now. I think it’ll be my family next. Franklin: Well, hopefully not too soon. Ferqueron: Oh, no. Well, I just had a heart valve put in, and the doctor told me to—and I’m 85—and the doctor told me to come back-- [VIDEO CUTS] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:53:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1931-1949 1984- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Lorraine Ferqueron was born in Pasco, Washington in 1931. Lorraine grew up in Fruitdale and Richland until 1943 when her family was displaced for the Manhattan Project. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Irrigation Farming Grand Coulee Dam (Wash.) Displacement Yakama Indians Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/18">Oral History Metadata</a> Battelle Cat Christianity Dam FBI Flood Hanford Kennewick Park Picnic Quonset hut River School supplies War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3c0a15b7341da5395fe544ee39586122.JPG 4c81c97bcaf611d56e40f2d717c1f940 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stanley Goldsmith Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Stanley Goldsmith: Stanley Goldsmith. O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Goldsmith here on March 21st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Goldsmith about his experiences working at Hanford. Okay. Could you tell us about your childhood up through—just briefly tell us about your life up through college and entering the Manhattan Project. Goldsmith: At Hanford here, or at Los Alamos? O’Reagan: Before that. Your life before the Manhattan Project. Where were you born? Goldsmith: Virginia. Norfolk, Virginia. In 19—March 25th, 1924. O’Reagan: Can you tell us about your life before the Manhattan Project? Up through college? Goldsmith: Well I— O’Reagan: Why don’t I move closer, that might— Goldsmith: I was raised in Norfolk and went to Virginia Tech to take—to get a chemical engineering degree. I entered Virginia Tech in 1941, and I graduated in 1945. O’Reagan: And then you entered the Army, is that right? Goldsmith: After graduation, I was drafted into the Army, and assigned to the Manhattan District of Engineers. Eventually, after waiting in several different places for my clearance, I wound up at Los Alamos, where I worked from 1945 to ’47—1947. O’Reagan: Did you just find out about what the goal was once you arrived? Goldsmith: Yes. After I got to Los Alamos, we were told what the objective was, and all about the problems. This was different than the other nuclear sites were. This mission was kept secret. O’Reagan: What element of the project did you work on at Los Alamos? Goldsmith: At Hanford? O’Reagan: At Los Alamos. Goldsmith: At Los—I worked on processing the uranium-235 for the first atomic bomb. O’Reagan: What did that involve? Goldsmith: That involved converting uranium oxide that had been enriched with 235. That involved processing it from an oxide to a fluoride so it could be reduced to a metal. And then machined into the shapes they needed for the bombs. O’Reagan: Were you figuring out your process as you went? Goldsmith: No. The process had been pretty well established. This was more like just individual laboratories processing individual amounts of u-235 to get it to the point where it could be reduced to metal. O’Reagan: Who did you work with? Goldsmith: What? O’Reagan: Did you work with anybody? Goldsmith: Yes. O’Reagan: Who else was in your lab? Goldsmith: That was a long time ago. Let’s see. There was Al Drumrose and a Purcell—I don’t remember his first name. There were two other—well, maybe a few other more people. But I guess I just don’t recall the names. O’Reagan: So what brought you to Hanford? Goldsmith: What got me to Hanford? I left Los Alamos to get a graduate degree in chemical engineering. When I graduated, I got a job here at Hanford as a nuclear—as a reactor engineer. O’Reagan: How did you hear about the job? Goldsmith: Well, I knew about Hanford, and I sent out letters of inquiry about positions that may be open here and at other sites. And I got the position here in 1950. O’Reagan: So you wanted specifically to work at Hanford or other sites—what was—did you have specific goals of what you wanted to do? Goldsmith: Well, I liked what Hanford had to offer. So there was no question about that. They satisfied what I was looking for. O’Reagan: What were your first impressions of the area? Goldsmith: Well, it was shocking to say the least. It was like out in the wilderness. And when I arrived in 1950, General Electric operated the whole site, including the housing and all of the utilities and so forth. They assigned me a house that—I don’t remember what the rent was, but it was very inexpensive. And then in 1960—let’s see, it was about 1960—between ’61 and ’65—they divided the work at Hanford among several—among four or five contractors. One of them operated the laboratory, one of them operated the nuclear reactor, and one the separations plant. I stayed with the laboratory. O’Reagan: Could you walk us through an average day when you first—say in 1950 or ’52—what sort of work were you doing? Goldsmith: What sort of work? O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Goldsmith: The average day—you want me to start back there?—is that my worksite was located about 20 miles from Richland. You could take a bus operated by the plant, or you could drive. But you had to go through an entrance gate—entrance—not a gate, but a station. And then we had to show our passes—badges. Then we went out to the site where we were working. In this case, at that time, I was working at F Reactor. As a reactor engineer, I rotated positions at the different reactors. So the work was—you asked me about the work—the work was, I thought, extremely interesting. And I felt very fortunate in that I felt like I was on the forefront of a new technology. By the time I got up here, there was a lot of emphasis on the peaceful use of nuclear power. I got involved in work for improving the nuclear fuels that was currently being used. This was because I was with Battelle then, and Battelle had a joint contract with the DoE where they could use part of their facilities—well, the major part of the facilities were for DoE work. But they also had a contract which they called 1831, and that was for doing private work for industrial corporations involved in nuclear work. I spent a lot of time on that, trying to—my group was trying to improve the performance of the fuel. Wanted to get higher powers. So that the fuel—we could produce fuel at a faster rate—I’m sorry, produce plutonium at a faster rate by increasing the power of the reactors. I worked as a reactor engineer for about four years. Then I took the position of manager of nuclear fuels research and development. We worked on developing or designing nuclear fuels, analyzing the fuels that had been used in the reactors to see what improvements could be made. Let’s see. We had a lot of interactions with the commercial fuel designers. As I mentioned, there were two contract billers. And this was done on the 1831, which allowed Battelle to use some facilities that were DoE’s—some facilities on the plant in their private work. So I’m trying to think about the timing, now. The main—after working on DoE projects for about five years, I worked on a private project that was sponsored—that was funded by Exxon—they’re now called Exxon Nuclear. They were interested in getting into the nuclear business, because they had a lot of claims on land that have uranium. They wanted—they decided to utilize those claims. Get the uranium, then processing it for use as nuclear fuels. So at that time, I think there was only one Exxon employee involved in this. They took over part—a major part of that, as Exxon Nuclear—took over a major part of Battelle. We were moved out of the buildings that DoE built, and we were located in Uptown in Richland in the industrial—just completely isolated from the other nuclear work that was going on. We designed a nuclear fuel for Exxon Nuclear which evolved into their first commercial fuels. During that time, Exxon Nuclear began to have their own staff. But we stayed with them until about 19—early 1970s, we worked with them. And then their own employees could take over from then. After that, I worked on fuel cycles. On seeing if we could design different types of fuels with different types of materials, like thorium, on the fuel cycles. And we—let’s see. This was work for DoE. And we continued that work—my group continued working for DoE. They were working on the nuclear reactor regulation, on NRC. We had projects with NRC. Our main project was DoE. And here again, I was telling you--[COUGH] Excuse me. I was still involved in nuclear fuel development. We did a lot of work for NRC and also for DoE. This was on helping them understand and approve their review of new nuclear fuels in reactors—nuclear fuel design. So we were working on both sides of the street: with the regulatory side, and the DoE development side. And then in 1980—excuse me just one minute—I should have jotted these dates down. In late 1980s, I worked on a DoE program on nuclear fuels—on nuclear fuel cycles, where we were looking at different way of utilizing the nuclear fuels so that they would last longer and that they would be safer. Then after that, I was assigned to Battelle Columbus, because I had worked through this project. It turned out quite successful. And Battelle Columbus had a contract with DoE to perform research on finding a nuclear repository—nuclear burial site. I was the Battelle manager of that program for about four years. We looked at the—examined the potential nuclear sites in New Mexico, Louisiana, Georgia, and here at Hanford. This program went on for about four or five years, and then DoE selected the Nevada site at Los Alamos—not Los Alamos—at Las Vegas for the site to bury the spent nuclear fuels. That program lasted for quite a while, but I left it in 19—after four years, because I didn’t want to move down to Texas, which was one of the sites that was being considered. So I moved back here to the Hanford. I worked on miscellaneous programs after I came back to Hanford. A lot of them had to do with the nuclear fuel cycle and the nuclear waste disposal—nuclear waste treatment and disposal. And I did that type of work for about four years, and then I retired in 1987? 19—yes, in 1987. And I left Battelle, and went to work for an environmental engineering company in Washington, DC, who was working on the same sort of thing. They were technical support contracted to DoE headquarters. So I was there until—let’s see. I was there until about 1994. And then I had to just—I still continued to work even though I was retired from Battelle. I had actually moved back to Battelle and was hired by Battelle as a consultant so that I could retain my pension and the salary for the job. That went on until about 1992. And finally, I retired for good. [LAUGHTER] So, that’s a very brief and sketchy description of what I did here at Hanford. One thing that—a little sideline you might be interested in. You asked about what Hanford was like. When I first came to work here, there were very few facilities that could be used at Hanford. I was not—I didn’t need anything special to do my work; I didn’t need a specially designed building structure. But I did do work on design and that work was done—the group was assigned to the Hanford High School. [LAUGHTER] Let’s see, where else? As I said, I had worked at most of the reactors that were operating at that time. Oh, there’s one thing that—I want to back up a little bit until about 1975. I got in—my group got involved in plutonium recycle. This was a program that DoE sponsored, a fairly large program, in which we were trying to recycle the plutonium that was not being used in bombs. Plutonium—to show that it could be used in nuclear power reactors. And we actually had a plutonium recycle test reactor built here onsite to test the fuels, the mixed oxide. We called it mixed oxide fuel because it’s plutonium and uranium oxide. And the reactor, which was the PRTR, Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor, was designed specifically to try to test, get information on mixed oxide fuels. Let’s see. I moved around a lot. After about five years on that program, I moved on, I think, to working for Exxon Nuclear, to assist them in their program. Now, Exxon Nuclear was so sensitive about their work being exposed by DoE that they moved many of the facilities that they used at Battelle, they moved them to different sections. We had offices at the old—what was it—the woman who had all of this fabric stuff? It was in Richland, it’s right in downtown Richland. And we took the top floor of one of the buildings that had already been built. And of course, there, we only did calculations because they had no facilities for taking care of irradiated material. That was an interesting time, too, when we were off on our own, so to speak. O’Reagan: They did that because they were afraid of the Department of Energy taking their knowledge? Goldsmith: Well, they were concerned there would be some link—crossover—inadvertently, perhaps. The DoE could claim that some of the work done by Exxon Nuclear was done by DoE. And they didn’t want that to happen, so they completely isolated themselves. O’Reagan: Did that hurt your work? Goldsmith: Did that work? O’Reagan: Did it impact your work, being isolated like that? Goldsmith: I’m sorry? O’Reagan: Being isolated, did that impact your work? Did it slow your work, or did it cause any problems? Goldsmith: No, it didn’t cause any problems. We were able to move our whole group out into the new facility in downtown Richland. So were other groups—nuclear physics group, and the other groups that went into the fuel cycle. But that was an interesting time, because we were really developing commercial nuclear fuels. The design that we had come up with was the first nuclear fuels that Exxon Nuclear had marketed. They marketed to—I’ll think of that in a minute. But anyway, we got involved in—since I mentioned earlier that there were very few Exxon Nuclear employees involved in this program—that we actually got involved with the Exxon Nuclear people who went out to market their product. That was at the time when we ran into some very interesting commercial situations. O’Reagan: What makes one nuclear fuel better than another nuclear fuel? Goldsmith: Well, they were made primarily from uranium, and they were oxides. They were made into compressed pellets. Now, some of these were different—some of these were specifically made for boiling-water reactors, and others were for pressurized-water reactors. There was a design difference in the two reactors. One of them—the power level was about the same, but the design of the fuel and the way it was structured was different. That made a difference in the fuel for the two types of reactors. After we got involved in working for Exxon Nuclear, when our contract with them expired, we became very much involved in working only for DoE and NRC. I think I mentioned that to you. We—oh, we had contracts—my group had contacts with practically all the commercial nuclear fuel design people, and we provided them design support, and we did testing for them. So we were pretty much involved in the nuclear industry by then. O’Reagan: How secretive or how classified was your work? Goldsmith: After—when I moved to Hanford, the classification was almost—was very slim. It was very lax, because with the dropping of the atom bombs, then all of that came out, what the bomb was made of, and some ideas what the design of the bomb was. So by that time, it had pretty well leaked out, the security was relaxed on that, also. So that wasn’t—that was no longer a big problem. There were still some residual problem in security. In fact, the Russians, of course, wanted to get into the nuclear industry business. They wanted to know—well, this backed up into the weapons program—Cold War program. They wanted to know what powers we read our plants at—how many megawatts. And they actually took measurements of the Columbia River and calculated from that what powers we were obtaining. So that was when the Cold War was going on. O’Reagan: How did you hear about that? Goldsmith: Hear about what? O’Reagan: The Russians testing the waters. Goldsmith: Oh. I think we had—our security people kept an eye on what was going on with the Russians. And this is one of the things they found out. O’Reagan: Let’s see. What was life in the Tri-Cities like back in the 1950s and ‘60s outside of work? Goldsmith: Well, it was pretty plain in a way—several. Because there weren’t many things to do. There was only one theater, and there may have been one or two grocery stores, and I think there was one real estate agent. That was the case with most of the various businesses. There was maybe one, or two at the most. There was not much in the way of entertainment. I mentioned that we had one theater. People—the workers at the plant—developed their own entertainment—sources of entertainment. They formed all kinds of different clubs. One of the most popular club was the bridge club—competitive bridge. We played that in one of the commercial buildings that had an open space that we could use. Another was the Richland Little Theater. And then there was a Richland opera—Light Opera, also. And there were—of course, golf was a big activity, because there were already several different golf courses. So that was taking off. There were other activities like that where you had to build them yourself. You may have gotten a little support from DoE, but you couldn’t depend on it. So we had to make our own source of entertainment and relaxation. O’Reagan: Did you play bridge? What was your entertainment? Goldsmith: Yeah, I got involved in playing bridge. This was duplicate bridge. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but that’s a form of bridge that is competitive. It’s still—it’s played in such a way that everybody—each couple gets to play against another couple, and they rotate during the evening, so that other couples play the same cards. The competitive part comes in as to who comes up with the best score at the end of the evening. [LAUGHTER] And that was quite controversial. Particularly when a man and woman were partners—they would—they had no shame, or no hesitant to getting into arguments at the bridge table. So that was a big deal. Even now there’s a lot of bridge clubs that are playing here—duplicate bridge is what it’s called. O’Reagan: Where did you live throughout your time at Hanford, or in this area? Goldsmith: What’s that? O’Reagan: Where did you live? Did you move houses? Goldsmith: Yes—well, yeah. At that time, they were building houses like mad. I lived in one of the government houses in Richland—old Richland. Then I moved into what they called a ranch house. Those were a government house that was one story, and it had three bedrooms. There was some furnishing that came with these houses. The rental on it was very nominal. And as I recall, we were provided—many of these houses, or most of them were heated by coal. DoE actually—at that time, it was actually GE who ran the town—provided free coal. They would come around periodically and dump a load of coal for you to use in your houses. O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! Goldsmith: Huh? O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! Seems like it would get you messy. All the—dumping the coal, is there a coal dust that would come up? Goldsmith: What’s that? O’Reagan: When you burned the coal, would it be dirty? Would it make a lot of smoke, I guess? Goldsmith: Not too bad. They must have used a hard coal that gave out less smoke. I don’t know that—it wasn’t like an industrial company where they had large facilities that generated a lot of steam, a lot of smoke. This was kind of dispersed. So we didn’t have an air problem at that time. We had—now the other thing that they did to make life easier—we had our own transportation—public transportation system. You could ride on the buses that they had for free. So that was to make life easier for the employees. O’Reagan: Must have been a lot of buses? Goldsmith: What? O’Reagan: Must have been a whole lot of buses. Goldsmith: Well, most of the buses were actually used to go out to the Area—to take the workers out to the Area, because there’s where you had a lot of people to be transported. The civilians, or the private people, had—many of them had their own cars. So didn’t use the bus. O’Reagan: Was it different when you were working on commercial energy compared to when you were working for the Department of Energy? Goldsmith: Yes, there were quite a lot of differences. We were able to produce fuel designs and produce developmental fuels in a much shorter time than DoE, because there was a lot of paperwork involved in going through the DoE process. In fact, one of the DoE people at headquarters who was in charge of reactor development said he was very upset because he couldn’t—he was in charge of the fast reactor, the FFTF. And they were struggling to try to get the thing going. He was very upset because he couldn’t understand how we were able to get fuel for Exxon Nuclear, and they were still struggling. They’d been struggling for a long time. [LAUGHTER] So he wanted to know what we were doing. Well, what it was, we didn’t have to jump through all the loops that you did. O’Reagan: Was it finding the uranium, the procurement that was the problem? Or just write paperwork? Goldsmith: No, the problem that DoE had was that they had a bureaucracy that kind of controlled things. And that always slows things down. It took them about twice as long to develop the fuel for the Fast Flux Reactor than it did us for the commercial reactors. O’Reagan: Hmm. Let’s see. Have the Tri-Cities changed much in the time you’ve been living here? Goldsmith: Oh, yeah. It’s been amazing how it’s grown. The Tri-Cities now is like a normal city. The nuclear influence is much less, because we have so many other businesses now involved for our economic base. As I had mentioned earlier, there were usually one kind or maybe two types of business or entertainment or something like that. When the commercial people came in, they opened as many stores as they wanted, or that were needed. So that was one big thing. Another big thing was the housing development, the real estate. I remember up until 19—let’s see, about 1965, GE was in charge of everything, including building houses. [COUGH] Excuse me, I’ve got a cold. When they opened up the lands, part of the land, surrounding territory was owned by the Department of the Interior—it was government owned. And then they made those available to the public for building houses and other types of structures. The demand for these things was great enough, so the building was really at a peak. Now, even now, you take a look at the housing—the amount of housing that’s going on, and take a look at the commercial businesses, like drive down George Washington Way, you see all these new businesses or restaurants or that sort of thing. So it’s really changed. Richland was all on this side of the Columbia River. That was one of the boundaries for Richland. But then the Columbia River curved around, and there were—on the other side of the river, there was nothing but sagebrush. But some entrepreneurs had bought land there, and then when they started to build, they had lots of land to build on. That was no problem. There’s a whole new part of Richland that’s on the other side of the river that wasn’t there until probably about 1965 or so. That’s when it started. So there’s been a growth of industry. The highways have been developed. There’s new industry that’s come in. So we’ve developed quite a good industrial base now, and it’s still growing. O’Reagan: Are there any—to ask an open-ended question, are there any moments or stories that come to mind that you think are worth telling about your time working at Hanford? Goldsmith: Well, I told you about how we had, early on, we had offices at the Hanford High School. That was—we made a lot of fun of that, when anyone called you at the high school, we said this is the Goldsmith class of ’41-’42. There was a lot of—amazing amount of work that was done on animals to use those as some of the basic studies for the effect of radiation on animals. Now we don’t have any of those studies going on. But let’s see. I’m trying to think of something that is unusual. A lot of it was—practically all of it was unusual. O’Reagan: How about something mundane, but it’s still kind of unusual? Or maybe a day in the life later on in your work? Goldsmith: Well, I mentioned the general public had to develop their own recreational activities. We have—I don’t know—we have a lot of parks and fields. Like some of those baseball parks are very good. I didn’t appreciate how good they were until—I have some relatives who live in Maryland, and we visited them, and we went to see their children’s baseball game. But they had just an open field, nothing like we have. So that’s been—the recreational things have improved quite a bit. Of course the boating is still a big deal. I really—as I said, there was so much growth going on that it’s hard to pick out any one area. Excuse me. The recreational areas have increased. You know, we’ve grown more; we’ve built at least two new golf courses, and these were very good golf courses. Then the other thing is some of the building of private homes around the golf courses. That has been—we live in a community there that probably has—what would you say, Joyce, about 800 people? Something of that sort. And it’s very nice. There’s two such communities. One of them is called Canyon Lakes, where we live, and the other is called Meadow Springs. That’s been developed—highly developed. We both have very nice golf courses. Joyce: After you retired, didn’t you work with the people from Israel, the First Defenders? Goldsmith: Oh, yeah, that was an interesting little program. That was after I retired, and I was re-hired. Battelle got a program from the State Department to help—to develop ways for the First Defenders on a terrorist site could make a better determination of what happened. And they did this on a worldwide basis. Mainly, underdeveloped countries, but one country that they had and they were anxious to get involved because they had firsthand information—they were anxious to get Israelis involved. Because they had a lot of first defenders. The program consisted of sending a team of people over to Israel and tell them what the program was about. And then Israel was to send about 20 people over here for a month. And then we were using the training—the HAMMER facility to do the training. I got involved because when the Israelis came over, they asked me, since I’m Jewish, they asked me if I would help trying to make them feel comfortable and so forth, take care of their dietary laws. And again, they were very pleased. And it was fun, it was interesting to see how they had become sensitized to terrorism. For instance, they stayed at one of the hotels out there. It’s right outside of Columbia Center Mall. And early morning, a bus would pick them up and take them out to the HAMMER site. After about two or three days, the bus driver said—no, someone said are we going to take any different routes? And the bus driver thought they meant for sightseeing. But they didn’t want to establish a pattern for terrorists to see what their schedule was. So they finally got him to change the route out to Hanford itself. But that was interesting, because the view of the Israelis who had been submitted to so much terrorism and the view of the other countries that we trained but who had not been submitted were completely different. Like night and day. So that was interesting experience. They show you the difference between our view of being careful about terrorism. As I said, these people were housed—excuse me. These people were housed in one of the hotels close to the Columbia Center—close to the Columbia Center Mall. They would go into the mall, and they were appalled to see that people were allowed to go in and out of the mall carrying all kinds of backpacks and all kinds of packages where it’s not being inspected. Because in Israel, they inspected anyone who was carrying a package of any sort. And they would be examined. So that was an interesting insight on how the different countries treat terrorism. O’Reagan: And the training was about how to respond to a nuclear accident, or a crisis? Goldsmith: Well, this program was called the First Defenders. And these people were doctors, they were scientists, they were firemen and so first. They were a mixture of who would come to the site where an attack had been made. That’s why they called them the First Defenders. They—let’s see, what was I going to say? They were very—the ones that were really involved in anti-terrorism were very conscientious and good about it. We had some interesting things that arose as part of this program. As I said, there were nations from all over the world that were involved to a certain extent. And we had the Indians, from India, coming over, spending a month. They were put up in the Hanford House—Red Lion Hanford House. They got a call one day from someone at the Hanford House wanting to know if we could talk to these people about how to keep the shower curtains inside of the showers, because they would keep them out and they would flood the whole area. So there were strange incidences like that. I’m sorry, Joyce? Joyce: About when Bill Wiley was here and you worked at Hanford Battelle in Quality Assurance. Did you share any of that? Goldsmith: The quality--? Joyce: Uh-huh. Goldsmith: Bill Wiley was a very—I think he was very influential and left his mark on the site, because he wanted to develop this environmental molecular laboratory, the rows of buildings out there, the new rows. And that opened up a whole new set of doors for Battelle to grow. They went into more basic stuff. Up to that time, we mainly focused on working on problems with nuclear reactors and nuclear fuels. But this was completely different from that. This was basic science that these laboratories allowed us to get involved in. And it’s opened up a whole new area. I think Battelle, and Hanford in general, has benefited from it, because they get a lot of extra programs that they wouldn’t have before. O’Reagan: Were you involved with these basic science programs? Goldsmith: No, I started in nuclear fuels and nuclear reactors most of the time I was here. But I didn’t get into any of the basic science programs. O’Reagan: Did you want to say anything about this Oppenheimer letter, maybe introduce it for us? Goldsmith: He was a very nice guy, and he was very considerate, and everybody liked him. He was very friendly—friendly in a reserved way. He didn’t go around smacking people on the back, but you knew he was warm and he remembered names. After the peace was declared, I think it was that later date in 1945? No, not 1945. At any rate, after the war was over, and things settled down, he sent out a letter to some of the people who worked on it that thanked them for their effort. And he sent me one of those letters. And I’m very impressed with it, because he knew what I was doing. Because he could mention that in his letter. I’ve been very proud of that letter. That’s what that is all about. It may not be much to many people, but to people who have been involved in the nuclear industry, I think it has some impact. O’Reagan: Did you ever meet any other Los Alamos or other Manhattan Project veterans who weren’t from the Hanford site when you worked at Hanford? Goldsmith: When I went to Hanford did I ever--? O’Reagan: Meet any other people who had been at Los Alamos? Goldsmith: No, there are not too many people here, just a few people here. I’m hoping—I’d like to know—I wanted to put something on Facebook about seeing how many people from Los Alamos who actually worked on the bomb still are around. Because I don’t think there are too many. I was—I got my degree when I was 21, so—and then I immediately went to work and have done that since then. But I’ve lost track of most of the people. I think they’re probably dead by now. [LAUGHTER] But if there’s something that comes up from that, I’d like to see. O’Reagan: All right, well thank you so much. Joyce: Thank you. Goldsmith: You’re welcome. Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/yCLXgXa3QdQ">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13:13 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview F Reactor Battelle PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor) Exxon Nuclear FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1987 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stanley Goldsmith Description An account of the resource Stanley Goldsmith moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview with Stanley Goldsmith conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/21/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Los Alamos (N.M.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Chemical engineering Nuclear fuels Nuclear reactors Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Battelle Cold War Department of Energy Event F Reactor General Electric HAMMER Hanford Los Alamo Los Alamos Manhattan Project Plutonium River School Theater War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fca1cd27779d2a53e9b9a5fb904573fa3.jpg dd6665ad63d7fe5c5acc2cb6fa5d2b46 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e26990ed6f57cf106722b5faea48c57.mp4 407f005756ef54638c41f44cafc967f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leonard Gustafson Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Gustafson_Leonard Robert Bauman: We're ready to go. So if we could start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Leonard Gustafson: Okay. You ready? Bauman: Yep. Gustafson: Okay. I'm Leonard Gustafson. Last name is spelled G-U-S-T-A-F-S-O-N. Bauman: All right. And my name's Robert Bauman. And today's date is October 16th, as we clarified, 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us when you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place. Gustafson: Okay. Bauman: Why you came here. Gustafson: Well, we do that almost any direction. I knew about the place so for a couple reasons, but the main reason was that some of my fellow chemical engineers from Montana State University had come over a year or two earlier. And so when I finished up at Bozeman and started looking for a job, it seemed like I might take at least a temporary assignment at this wartime installation until I found a real job. So I arrived on October 15th of 1950. It's been a little while ago isn't it? 63 years. Bauman: Almost your anniversary, yeah. Gustafson: Went through, I guess, the normal procedures. Found out about what was going on in the plant, and security, and a little bit about how to deal with radioactive materials. And then I was assigned to my first tasks. I was what they called a Supervisor-in-Training, and went into the operations part of the chemical processing department. My first building that I went to was T Plant. The T Plant, the bismuth phosphate separation plant. And about all I did there was so learn how to detect contamination and clean it up. I always tell the story that the operators really loved having these young supervisors-in-training come in, because they could hand them a bucket of acetone, or something like that, and bundle of rags, and a cutie pie—which was our instrument for detecting radiation—and send us out to scrub the deck. In the separation plants, and this was common after the crane operator removes the blocks from the cells, he always leaves a little bit of contamination on the deck. So that's a rather regular job. So I learned how to handle the cutie pie. And how to go through the—how to dress. Put us in our white coveralls and learn how to go through what we called at that time, the SWP, Special Work Permit. It's been called many different things. Anyhow, that started me out. After I believe it was about two months in T Plant, I was assigned to the startup of the REDOX operation. Now the REDOX was the first of the solvent extraction plants. So it was essentially near completion there at the end of 1950, the beginning of 1951. So we went through the final inspection processes and started up. And then I was assigned to one of the four operating shifts that operated that building. This was extremely interesting. It was like a great big pilot plant laboratory, and we chemical engineers essentially had the responsibility for operating. We moved into that plant without having much time for a lot of training and procedural preparation. So in order to at least establish some kind of order beyond simple procedures. The operation was strictly conducted by the engineers, by the supervisors. Each shift had eight shift supervisors and two senior supervisors. And initially all the operation was conducted by the supervisors. The operators were just learning at that stage. After, oh, year or so, the operators were ready to run the plant. We didn't need so many supervisors. So in late 1953, I went out on another rather interesting assignment. Engineering at that time was responsible for inspection. We didn't have anything like quality assurance organizations. So engineering inspectors took care of the required inspection of any materials or equipment that we were ordering from Hanford. I was assigned mostly out in the Ohio, Pennsylvania, Kentucky area, New York. I spent a little over a year. It was a very active thing. Frequently I'd turn in an expense account for seven different locations in a week. So is this about-- Bauman: Yeah, this is great. Gustafson: --where you want to go? I can cut things pretty short if you'd like. Bauman: This is great. Keep going. Gustafson: So anyhow, we got into some fabulous big plants and all this sort of thing. Learned a little more about how to build things. Because some of the time we were actually not only assigned for the final inspections, but we went right through all the manufacturing stages. I returned then to Richland in the beginning of 1955. By that time, the PUREX plant was nearing completion. That was the second of the big solvent extraction plants. So I was assigned for the startup and so on of that plant. My final assignment there was basically I was the operating supervisor for C shift. C shift was one of the four shifts that was responsible for operating the plant. By that time, the operators were pretty well trained, so I had about 18 or 19 operators and two chief operators. And there was one technical man also assigned to the shift. I'd have to look upon that assignment as probably the most responsible job I ever had, starting up and running that plant. The operating group was basically responsible for the main process. The shift crews have the responsibility to run it, unless there were some real serious problem or question, we have to find the answers and go ahead and do it. There were many experiences there, but I was--after a couple years, well, I'd been married in the process there at the end of ‘55. My wife was a teacher and it was getting to the point where shift work was not the most desirable. We'd touch base occasionally. So I moved into one of the engineering groups again in the separations department, process design and development. [UNKNOWN], just one who is still around, managed that group. A good friend. And so I spent a couple years in that work. We were basically responsible for new activities or problem activities that the engineering group was supposed to take care of to support the operations. So after two or three years there, I thought it was about time to see some more of the plant, so I moved on down to the 300 Area, and worked with the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. So I spent a couple three years there. So that had to be about 1960, 1961, somewhere in there. I didn't get the exact dates. So I went through the startup and operation of the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. Now this was not associated with plutonium production. This was really in support of the oncoming nuclear industry for power production, for electrical production. And the reason for the PRTR was to demonstrate that plutonium could be used as well as uranium-235 as the fissile fuel for commercial reactors. It was a successful project. And at that time, projects were completed on time and usually under budget. So it was a success as far as I'm concerned. After that plant is operating and they didn't have much need for me around anymore, I moved on out to the 100 Areas. And good friend of mine, Gene Astley, asked me one day what I was doing. I said, well, I guess I'm about ready to do something else. And so he said, well, come on out work for me for a while. So I went out to the 100 Areas, must've been ‘64 or ‘65, and worked largely with so water plant type problems and questions that were going on. Now we're getting into the area where we're getting about ready to--the Cold War was sort of winding up. So production wasn't the number one priority anymore. There were a lot of questions about what was the future of Hanford and so on at that time. So after working a couple three years out there, I guess not quite, I moved on down to the fuels department and worked with Charlie Mathis, the manager of fuels production at that time—this must've been about ‘65. And my main activity there was mostly planning, what are we going to do with the fuels manufacturing plants in the future? So very, very interesting and we worked along with—Roy Nielsen had a group that was overall Hanford planning at that time. So after a couple years there in the fuels department, I actually moved into Roy's group. And so this had to be ‘67, maybe ‘66, I'm not real sure. With that assignment, one of the things that was done at that time the AEC, countrywide, was studying and planning for what to do with the nuclear facilities and how they were going to support commercial electrical power generation. So they had a group down at Oak Ridge that was called the AEC Combined Operational Planning Group. And Hanford, as well as most of the sites, were responsible for providing two or three representatives. So I spent about a year and a half down there. That was in basically ‘68. Of course, that was quite fascinating, because we were looking at the overall AEC complex and what was the future for nuclear power, essentially. One of the things I got involved with were the nuclear power forecasts. I spend a lot of time at headquarters. Frank Baranowski was the head of the production division, essentially responsible for Hanford, Savannah River, Oak Ridge—all of the main production facilities. I spent some time with him every now and then. Very fine fellow. And so after year and half or so there, I felt it was about time to get back home. And we had actually moved the family there, so we moved completely and sold our house and rented in Oak Ridge. So we came back to Richland at I guess the end of ‘69. And one of the big activities at that time was the FFTF. So I again I went with the FFTF project. So I changed, I had been with Douglas United Nuclear, so at that time I went to Battelle who was responsible for the early FFTF bid. My good friends Astley and Condoda, who were the manager an engineering manager, they did not stay with the project. We Indians sort of stayed with it. That was when the AEC—the Milt Shaw years—decided that Battelle was not adequately competent to take on a project like that. They needed somebody with more, I guess, manufacturing and big project experience. So Westinghouse had been assigned to take over that responsibility by the AEC. So I then became a Westinghouse employee. Spent most of the next, I guess, ten years with the FFTF project until it was a complete and operating. By that time we're getting up to 1980 range. So those were interesting times. We had a lot particularly early conflict. The assigning of Westinghouse to take overlooked project didn't really satisfy what Milt Shaw was after. We had a rather severe conflict. Milt Shaw was finally ousted. I still don't know for sure who was the most influential in getting that because the project was floundering. We moved the AEC representatives from Washington, DC. The most closely associated came to Hanford and became essentially the FFTF project office on site. Most of the closely associated Westinghouse staff who had been in Pittsburgh moved to Hanford. And we were able to work over a local table rather than on the phone and at crazy meetings. And the FFTF came together quite well. I think it was very successful project. Perhaps we didn't finish it under budget, but we did well after it was reorganized. It started up and ran very successfully. Too bad that we couldn't find a better use for the plant. Of course, the liquid metal fast breeder program essentially fizzled. Let's see, from that—well, I'm getting pretty well along and I needed something maybe a little different. So I got into a rather, again, what I regard as an interesting assignment. Westinghouse there somewhere close to the period ‘78, ‘79, ‘80, had been assigned to run a nuclear quality assurance program office. And although Westinghouse Hanford was running that office, we were really a part of the AEC, or what became DoE. The work we did the next few years was largely to try and add something, coordinate the quality assurance programs around all of the sites. Lots of travel involved. Lots of lecturing. Lots of QA audits. I ran so many QA audits that I can't remember. Like I tell people, I got into more parts of Savannah River than most of the people who worked there. I think I was involved in at least 30 audits there over the years. This evolved into--that office—let’s see, it finally closed down in ’87, perhaps. And so I came back to a more conventional Hanford-type quality assurance and did that until I retired in ‘90. One of the last projects that I was on there was an SP-100. We were going to do a space reactor. And SP-100 was an interesting project, but it also never came to pass. Amazingly, ended up back in the PRTR building. Because we cleaned out some of the cells in the PRTR building and were going to put in a big vacuum tank there so we could simulate space for running this space reactor. Let's see, where'd I go from there? After I spent a little bit of time with a number of the waste program projects, including our own, and got into a little bit of the early vitrification plant. I retired in, what, December of ‘90. Spent the next three or four years doing part-time consulting. The main thing that I was associated with at that time was another interesting project. The only really commercial chemical reprocessing plant that was built was the West Valley plant, just south of Buffalo, New York. It was a small, but commercial, reprocessing plant. See, most of the reprocessing was shut down in 1970. And of course, that led to a lot of problems here at Hanford. Early '70s. I could go on about that for hours, but-- [LAUGHTER] Let's see. So I spent a lot of time at West Valley. And that was very separate. It didn't hit the newspapers. But that plant was completed. The waste that they had was vitrified into glass. And as far as I know, it's sitting there ready to go wherever. It could be up the mountain, but who knows. It's a good project in many ways. Bauman: So you've had a long and varied career in many ways. A number of different assignments. Gustafson: Yes, I think so. I think I was very lucky to see so much. Bauman: I wanted to ask you a few questions about some of the things you worked on. So you said you worked at both REDOX and PUREX. Could you explain the solvent extraction, and what that means? Gustafson: Yeah. Well, you know the purpose of our chemical processing, or chemical separation plants here at Hanford, is to take the fuel that has been irradiated in our reactors and extract from that the plutonium. And get the plutonium into a form so it can then go on down to Los Alamos for the bombs. So the chemical reprocessing plants essentially dissolve this uranium metal fuel that had been irradiated in the reactors, and a small amount of the uranium-238 has been converted into plutonium-239. And of course the atomic bombs can use either uranium-235 or plutonium-239 as their fissile source. So these plants are gigantic. They're 1,000 feet long, great big canyon buildings, as we called them. Basically just involve a lot of chemicals running from one end to the other. We start with the fuel and end up with--in the initial separation plants, they ended up with a waste stream that also included the uranium. Now we wanted to recover that uranium, so that early waste from the B and T Plants, as we refer it, these were the early bismuth phosphate separation plants. The waste from those reprocessed to recover the uranium. And the high level elements that we wanted to get rid of were put back into the waste tanks. But in both the REDOX and the PUREX processes, we actually extracted both the plutonium and uranium. So we ended up with two products. So the uranium could be immediately converted into UO-3 and then eventually back in the metal. And the plutonium could be converted into metal so it could be used for the bombs. So kind of an oversimplification there. Bauman: And so your work there—your position there was operational management? Gustafson: I was mostly associated with the direct operation. In the 200 Areas, except I said, after my PUREX assignment I was in just what we call the process design and development. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then you talked about this AEC combined operational planning group that you were part of in the late '60s. And you said, one of questions you were looking at was, what's the future of nuclear power? Did the group come up with any conclusions about that at the time in the late '60s, what the future of nuclear power was? Gustafson: Well, I think we were quite optimistic about nuclear power at that time. Of course, also what was developing was resistance to nuclear power. So our forecasts were extremely optimistic. And although we did end up finally with about 120 operating power production plants in the United States, far short of what we expected. The government had assumed, basically, I guess, overall responsibility to see that the technology is okay. And in particular, to assure commercial operators that they will have enough enriched uranium to run their plants. Because we didn't need that weapons-type material anymore. But see at Oak Ridge they ended up the producing almost pure U-235 while we were producing pure—or near pure—plutonium-239. So either of those could be used for the bombs. But what happened with the commercial power, we had to use about 3% or 4% U-235. Only slightly enriched. But we still had to use enrichment plants, and the government had all the enrichment plants—basically, like Oak Ridge and the rest of them. And so as far as AEC combined operational planning, their goal was to make sure that nuclear power did what it was supposed to do. Provide us with lots of good economic electric energy. And to a large extent, it has. Bauman: Hanford, obviously as a site, was a place that emphasized security, secrecy. Were you able to talk about the work you did? Was that something that was allowable given the security secrecy? Gustafson: Yes, there wasn't a great deal of the security concern. It was mostly what are the resources and what can we do with this combination of government and industry to provide good electricity for the country. Economic. Bauman: I want to go back to when you first arrived in 1950. What were your first impressions of the place here, of Richland, of the area? Gustafson: Oh, I don't know. It was a temporary stop. [LAUGHTER] Never expected to spend the next 40 years or so working here. It was a great place, particularly for young single people. We moved into dormitories and there were a lot for fine single people, ambitious, and always wanting to do things. Those were good years. We certainly accepted the security. We were part of what we felt was a very necessary effort. We were in the Cold War. And we had to do a better job than the Russians. Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms and where did you move to after that? Gustafson: Well, I didn't actually live too long in the dorms. There were four of us, still good friends of mine, except one of them's gone. But we actually moved out to a small place in West Richland. So a number of the people in the dorms were looking for a little better living conditions. One of the problems with those early dorms—in theory we weren't even supposed to do any cooking in the dorms. So we strictly were going from the dorms to the local cafeteria, or a few commercial places that were opening up in Richland. It was a fascinating time, those early '50s. I got married the end of ‘55, so the first five years of single life and included my year plus when I was offsite, skiing, water skiing. Like my crowd, we were essentially the first water skiers in the Tri-Cities. At that time to find a boat, we had to go to Seattle to get one that we could use for water skiing. There wasn't any Mets Marina at that time. So we sort of started the water skiing in the area. Created the Desert Ski Club which was a snow skiing, but also got in the water skiing. Desert Ski Club still exists. So my close associates, we were sort of the instigators that. All went through our time as officers of the club. It was a big social group. Still is, I think. Bauman: Richland was a federal town when you first arrived. How did you see that change over time from when you first arrived? Gustafson: It's kind of hard. We certainly enjoyed our early years. We had a lot more individual responsibility on the jobs. I tell one of my stories, I came in at midnight to take over my shift at PUREX. I was the operating supervisor on C shift. And the operating supervisor on swing shift wasn't there. And I'd been met at the door with an assault mask, all of the crew were. And when I went in the building, the operating supervisor who I was to replace wasn't there, but my boss was. And I never saw him again. So, I guess I tell the story that they didn't really tell me I was captain of the ship. So anyhow, we restarted the plant. And it took us a couple months. Bauman: And about when would this have been? Gustafson: Pardon? Bauman: What time period would this have been in? Gustafson: When was that? Bauman: Yeah, roughly. Gustafson: Well, let's see, I guess that was, must have been early ‘57, right? I'm not exactly sure now. It was a different time. Individuals have a lot of responsibility. And we made a few mistakes, but in general, I think we did a damn good job of operating the plants. And safety and radiological exposure, these were major parts of our responsibility and our concern. Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you about safety. Obviously, you said it was very—emphasized quite a bit. What sort of precautions did you have to take on your job? And were there ever any incidents when you were working of someone overexposure or anything along those lines? Gustafson: Well, I think we operated with a lot of what you would probably expect military officers to have as a responsibility. And you know, you were responsible for your job and you--As an operating supervisor of my C shift at PUREX, there wasn't any other group that was responsible for the training of my operators. They were my responsibility. And if we had to send them to some special training, we'd do that. But the basic training was conducted by the supervisor. They assured whether they were qualified and whether they were able to do their job. I guess that's why when my counterpart was ejected, it was a military type operation, I guess. But I think we did a really good job. Safety was a number one concern. Radiological exposure was also a number one concern. And as far as I'm concerned, from everything I've seen, very, very few people suffered from working in our plants. Bauman: I was going to ask you about President Kennedy came to the site in 1963 to visit. There was a story in the paper, a while back because it was the 50th anniversary of that. I wondered if you have any memories of that? Gustafson: Oh yeah. Half the plant was out there. And I was there to welcome him as he came in on his helicopter. We were all out there. Bauman: Anything in particular stand out to you about that day at all? Gustafson: Well, I don't know. It's what we all expected at that time. There wasn't anything really unusual about this. Although I came out in 1950 saying, this is going to be a very temporary thing, I think we became--[CRYING] We became Hanford. [CRYING] Didn't expect to get emotional. Bauman: Well, you built a sense of community, it seems like. Gustafson: Really did. Those were good years. Really good years. Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you, you talked about a number of different places on site that you worked. Different assignments. Was there one of those that was the most challenging? Or the most difficult? Or maybe one that was the most rewarding? Gustafson: Well for me, it had to be those first few years with the PUREX plant. I've had a lot of other—what I think—good work assignments over the years. I know of no one who had the variety that I had. Certainly projects likely FFTF, I felt I had a very important role in that. I was one of these so-called cognizant engineers and my system was the main heat transport system. And it included basically the primary and secondary cooling systems. Everything from the reactor on. And the operating conditions for the plant, all of the design events and so on were channeled into that system. So that was a rewarding job, too. And I think we did a good job. As I said, we had a lot of early trouble getting that project going, but finally. So I enjoyed those years. I didn't feel the same individual responsibility that I had with the early time at PUREX. Bauman: Obviously, Hanford also had the shift from production to a reduced production that you talked about, and then a shift to clean up. I wonder if those sort of mission changes impacted your work and in what ways? Gustafson: Well, they certainly did. I've been involved in many parts of that. Even during my last few years with generally this overall quality assurance type bit, getting into working with the Washington, DC folks and that sort of thing. Bauman: And you mentioned when you first came here, you thought it would be a short term. Gustafson: Oh, yeah. Bauman: And so for some people was. Some people did come for a short time and left. So why did you stay? I know you had some assigned that took you way to a bunch of other places, but-- Gustafson: Yeah. I don't know. We stayed for lots of reasons. We established a lot of close friendships. And sort of had our crowd of social as well as work relations. And we just became Hanford. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet in terms of your work at Hanford? Or your experiences that you'd like to talk about that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Any stories or things that stand out in your mind? Gustafson: I have so many stories about Hanford that it's kind of hard to come. Of course, many. My operational years, the most direct part of the operations, were the early years. I have a lot of individual things that happened. Some of them were good, some of them weren't. I remember particularly one incident. I don't want to be called a hero, but it was rather exciting. My operator was unloading a caustic car. And he was properly dressed with his shield and so on, but the hose from the railroad car came loose and it ended up spraying up underneath his protective clothing. And I felt that I was sure glad I was there, only about ten feet away. Because he was just kind of yelling with--You know, caustic getting sprayed into your face is not really good. Grabbed a hold of him and we both got under the safety shower was there. And at least he retained most of his sight. So, that was a situation where—just sort of individual kind of exciting happening, certainly was. I had a lot of other things go on. I feel that I had a lot of important tasks at Hanford. As I said, probably my most responsible thing was when I was still pretty young there, and operating the early couple, three years of PUREX as one of the operating supervisors. Had many chances to do so many different things over the years. Let's see, what would be of--It's kind of hard to come up with individual things that you might be interested in. Bauman: Well, you've already talked about a number. That's been great. So I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate it. Gustafson: Okay. Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:48:52 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview T Plant REDOX PUREX PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor) 100 Areas FFTF Westinghouse Hanford 200 Area B Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1990 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource An interview with Leonard Gustafson Description An account of the resource Leonard Gustafson moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Radioactive substances Nuclear fuels Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 100 Area 1955 200 Area 300 Area Battelle Cold War Desert Hanford Kennedy Los Alamo Los Alamos Plutonium PUREX River Safety Savannah River T Plant War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc651630801cddac7714f85ae37f8ff3b.jpg 483aaaf0575bd36213aa1ee22c8885e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Community Photograph Collections Subject The topic of the resource History of Hanford and the Tri-Cities area Description An account of the resource Photographs donated by the community to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. The Community Collections of the Hanford History Project have been graciously donated by community members for preservation and research use. Many of these are collections that were donated to the former Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology (CREHST) and transferred to WSU Tri-Cities in 2014. Bibliographic Citation A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible. [Item ID], Community Collections, Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 12.7 x 17.8 cm Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Inside of Stone Repository Subject The topic of the resource Stone Description An account of the resource "1 photograph: col.; 12.7 x 17.8 cm. Showing the area inside of a stone repository." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish please contact Washington State University Tri-Cities' Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/ tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4B_0002 Date Accepted Date of acceptance of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Accepted may be relevant are a thesis (accepted by a university department) or an article (accepted by a journal). 2017-05-16 Access Rights Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies. For permission to publish please contact Washington State University Tri-Cities' Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447. Language A language of the resource None Date Submitted Date of submission of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Submitted may be relevant are a thesis (submitted to a university department) or an article (submitted to a journal). 2018-10-29 Stone