43 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F115bb71b1265322a2c524550b06836dc.png 39382a0f67b8a6e3791777d8beeecd5d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1ce003197be6b98ea0b26e05a97de05d.mp4 793915522b780c8818451da5c7e285d0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Liz Curfman Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay, great. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Liz Curfman on July 16, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Liz about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Elizabeth Curfman: Elizabeth, E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H, Curfman, C-U-R-F-M-A-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much. And you prefer to go by Liz? Curfman: Liz, yes. Franklin: Okay, great. So, tell me how and why you came to the area to work at Hanford. Curfman: I actually came to the area in 1968 because my grandmother was living here. And the job prospects here were much greater than they were in Memphis, Tennessee, where I was born and raised. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you were from the South. Curfman: Yes, uh-huh. Franklin: How did your grandmother come here? Curfman: My grandmother was sort of a black migrant worker; she went wherever the work was. She’d go to Florida, she’d go to do oranges, she’d go to different places. She’d come to Washington and do mint and potatoes. And it seemed that Washington had more seasonal work, so she decided to settle here. Franklin: Where was she living when she first got here? Curfman: Pasco. Franklin: In Pasco. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: In east Pasco? Curfman: East Pasco, yes. Franklin: And did any of your other family members come here? Curfman: I have two sisters that came here, yes. Franklin: I want to ask about your grandmother’s experiences as a black woman in Pasco in the ‘50s. Did she tell you about any—about her life and any hardships or struggles? Curfman: Not really. She did a lot of domestic work and she did a lot of factory-type work, like at the potato sheds and things like that. But she was the kind of person where, when I came here, I was still saying yes, ma’am and yes, sir. She was adamantly against that. You don’t say, yes, ma’am and yes, sir. That’s a slave thing. Franklin: Right, but that was part of the Jim Crow system, right? Was you would say, yes, ma’am, yes, sir, to white people, children and adults, right? Curfman: Yes, yes. Franklin: So you—what year were you born? Curfman: 1950. Franklin: Okay. So, you were born, then, during the Jim Crow era. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Did you go to segregated schools? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Did you live in a segregated neighborhood? Curfman: I did, yes. Franklin: How did segregation of the South compare to the situation in Pasco when you arrived here? Curfman: Oh, it was definitely a culture shock, you know? I came to east Pasco to live with my grandmother until I found my own housing. My own housing was in Richland, and I had white neighbors, which I had never had in the South. So there was definitely a culture shock. Even my parents, you know—I have white neighbors, they’re like, oh my goodness. And they were from the—Ma said that that meant you had moved up in the world, kind of. So it was something to be proud of, I guess. Of course, my grandmother was totally the opposite. She was of a different generation than my mom and dad, because she was like, that’s nothing to be proud of. You deserve—you know, you’re just as equal as they are. So she had a different mindset for her generation. Franklin: It sounds like it. Because your—I imagine your grandmother would’ve been born sometime in the 19th century. Curfman: Yeah, she was born in 1897, I think. Franklin: Okay. So she would’ve grown up with segregation as well. Right after Plessy v. Ferguson. What do you remember about some of the landmark civil rights legislation or events when you were in Tennessee? School desegregation and civil rights protests? Curfman: You know, being in the city, we weren’t involved in very many protests. I do know that I went to a segregated school, as most—well, all black kids did. But we didn’t have the yellow school buses; we had the city buses. And the process was that it would pick the white school districts before it got to the black school district. So I can remember at times getting on the bus and having empty seats next to a white person, but they would have their books sitting on the seats, so you couldn’t ask them to move. You know, so that you couldn’t sit there. It never even crossed our minds to even ask them to, you know. It was just one of those things that you go to the back of the bus. Franklin: Right, just the way it was. Curfman: Yes, the way it was, yes. Franklin: And then do you have any memories of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, how that affected your life or your family’s life? Curfman: In 1964, I happened to be up here in the summer, visiting. I was like 14. There was a civil rights march in downtown Pasco. So that was the first involvement I had with anything like that. Franklin: Oh, did you participate in the march? Curfman: Yes, I did. Franklin: Why was that important to you? Curfman: Because it was something, you know, having been from the South and not having those rights, it was important that those were the kinds of things we were fighting for. At that time, when I came in ’64, there was a lot of things about, we can’t go to Kennewick, or we can’t be in Kennewick after dark. So those were the things that the people doing the march said that we were marching for. Franklin: Yeah. Greater inclusion. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: In the Tri-Cities. How would you describe the community in east Pasco when you first encountered it? Curfman: Mm-hmm. It was—I don’t know how to explain that. It was definitely different from the South, because the people were—some were working out at Hanford in construction, so their economics was totally different than in the South, where the people that I knew worked in restaurants or did domestic work, those kinds of things. So economics were totally different. Franklin: What were your first impressions of the Tri-Cities when you first arrived here? Yeah, first impressions. Curfman: You know, of course there was a little bit of fear. But then there was, I don’t want to say shock, but I was in awe of the fact that I could go into the stores and that the store wasn’t all-black. You know, there were white clerks, white people buying groceries. You know, it wasn’t an all-black store or things like that. Franklin: What about the environment? How did it compare to Tennessee? The physical environment and things. Curfman: Well, being in Memphis, being more of a city, we had a lot more trees and sidewalks and things like that, compared to east Pasco. But I felt like the people of east Pasco were more involved. I never really had any involvement with civil rights and stuff in the South. My parents didn’t. But when I came up here, it was marches. The NAACP was really active in east Pasco. So I joined that and did some things with them. They just seemed to be more—doing more for black people. They weren’t accepting the status quo; compared to in the South, it was like this is the way it is. Franklin: Why do you think that was? Curfman: That’s a good question, based on the fact that a lot of those people came from the South themselves. Again, I think it’s, maybe, making more money, being financially able to do and say things, not totally dependent. You take, for example, working out at Hanford doing construction, versus being a domestic person that’s, you can’t say what you want to say, because you could be fired tomorrow kind of thing. So I think they had more freedom to talk and do things. Franklin: So you had come out to visit when you were 14. Curfman: Mm-hmm, yes. Franklin: And then after ’68—I’m just kind of going by date—you must’ve graduated high school and then you took the big jump and came out here. Curfman: Yes, I was actually married at that time and had one son, one child. And my grandmother said the job opportunities were better out here for black people than in the South. So she paid for me and my family to come out here. Franklin: Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s a very common thing we’ve heard, doing this project, was the—yeah. That jobs were the main pull force out of the South for people was the employment. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And you said that you, when you first came, you stayed with your grandmother until you got your own place and then you lived in Richland. Where did you live in Richland? Curfman: My first house was on—actually, my first house was in West Richland which was even worse. I felt like I was treated worse in West Richland than I was in Richland or Kennewick, as far as the white neighbors kind of a thing. It was like I was totally out of place in West Richland. They treated you like you should not be here. Franklin: Really? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Were there any specific incidences that stand out? Curfman: Just, the neighbors weren’t friendly. They had kind of one little grocery store and you’d go in, it seemed like everyone would be staring at you. The clerks weren’t friendly. You know, they’d just take your money and not say hi, not even give you eye contact. You just felt very unwanted. So, it was a welcome release when we found a rental in Richland and moved to Richland. Franklin: And where did you land in Richland? Curfman: I was on Wright Street—Wright Avenue, right by Duportail, right in that area. Franklin: Yeah, okay. Yup. I know that area very well. Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So you must’ve been living in an Alphabet House or a prefab? Curfman: Yes, a prefab, yes. Franklin: Prefab. A two-bedroom? Curfman: Two-bedroom, mm-hmm. Franklin: Just try—I lived the past two years in that neighborhood, so I know that neighborhood very well. So what sort of work did you do at Hanford? What was your first position? Curfman: My first position was as a lab—at that time they called them chemical analysts in the laboratory, at 222-S Laboratory. Franklin: Oh, okay. All the way out in the 200 Area. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: So you—how did you get out there? Curfman: Of course, my grandmother had brought me up here to go to work out there, because she heard that they were hiring. At that time they had a program that was called the TOP program. It was specifically designed to bring minorities—hire minorities into the library. So they were actively pursuing minorities to go to work out there. Franklin: That must’ve been somehow connected to civil rights legislation, right? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Forcing, kind of— Curfman: Affirmative Action. Franklin: Affirmative Action, thank you. So I assume you weren’t the only minority to come out there. Curfman: Right, no. Yeah, the entire program was all minorities, yes. Franklin: How were you and your cohort received? Curfman: I think there was a little bit of fear. I actually worked with one lady that was from Prosser. At that time, there was one black guy working in the laboratory. She was saying that, except for him—he was the first black person she had ever seen, when he went to work out in the laboratory. So we talked about things like that. It was like we were always being watched, and it was kind of like being on the TOP program was kind of a put-down. Like there might have been some kind of resentment that we were being brought in. Franklin: Right. So you’re saying that there was kind of like the modern-day criticisms of Affirmative Action that some people say, you’re here for quota reasons and maybe— Curfman: Yes. Franklin: --you took the job of a local or a white person. Curfman: Yes, absolutely. Franklin: But you—so, was that just an initial thing, or did that kind of hang over the program for its— Curfman: No, it was an initial thing. I can’t even remember how long the program lasted. I don’t even know if there was a class after the one class that I was in. I can’t remember. So, it was basically an initial thing. There was some that made it and some that didn’t. Franklin: What did you know or hear about—did you learn about the prior history of African Americans at Hanford from the Manhattan Project on? Did you know that African Americans had helped to build Hanford and the buildings that you were working in? Curfman: In the construction area, yes. Yeah, I knew that. Franklin: Was that something that was kind of common knowledge or talked about? Curfman: Yes, and being in east—there were people in east Pasco who were still working out there in the construction area. So, you hear about them coming here from Texas and different places in the early ‘50s and late ‘40s. Franklin: What did you—your work at Hanford was kind of beyond—it seems like you were the class that really went beyond—you expanded the boundaries of blacks at Hanford from construction into labs. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How was that received in the African American community? What did the earlier workers, did they ever talk to you about that, or anything like that? Curfman: The earlier workers, no, I can’t remember talking to any of them about it. Franklin: Okay. How did you get out to the labs? Did you take a bus? Curfman: The bus, yes. Franklin: What was that like? Curfman: It was interesting. You know, we would drive to the bus lot and catch the bus. When I started working out there, of course everyone had to do the shift work, so I worked the A,B,C,D shift, which was seven days on, two days off kind of thing, and then once a month, you had the four days off. But again, it was one of those things, getting on the bus, you felt like everyone was staring at you. Especially going out to the labs, because at that time, there wasn’t very many black people in the labs, so. Or on the buses period. Because the construction workers normally worked daytime; they weren’t out there at night and things like that. So there would be people that—you know. And almost like old habits never die, still kind of went to the back of the bus kind of thing. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense, sadly. What did your husband do when he came out here? Did he find work out at Hanford? Curfman: Yes, he was a chemical operator in 200 East area. Franklin: Was he part of the same program? Curfman: No, he was not part of the TOP program. Franklin: Oh, okay. What do you know about his experiences out on Site? Curfman: I don’t think he had any negative experiences. I can remember having his boss for dinner, things like that. Of course was a white guy. I don’t remember anything negative that he would ever come home and say. Franklin: Your children eventually must’ve enrolled in Richland School District, right? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How was their experience as a minority student in the school district? Were there any people that were really influenced them or mentored them or was there any negative experiences? Curfman: No, I don’t think there were—because they were both into sports, so that always kind of carried them a long way. They started out in Richland schools. I got divorced and remarried and moved to Benton City, which, again, put them—they were the only two black kids in the all-white school. [LAUGHTER] Curfman: But, you know, they had lots of friends. We didn’t have any problems. I probably had more issues than they did. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine there were not a lot of blacks in Benton City. Curfman: There was not. We were it. We were it. Franklin: Yeah. I grew up in a very small farming town and I think it was a similar situation for my friend who was the only black kid in our school for quite a long time. Curfman: Uh-huh. Franklin: So how was Benton City different from Richland, living there, the community? I wonder if you’d talk about that. Curfman: Yeah, again, it was about the same experience as being in West Richland. You didn’t feel like you belonged. If you went to the grocery stores, the post office, the bank, you were glared at. Somewhat treated rudely. Not rude to the point of where they could get in trouble; it’s just that they weren’t as friendly. You could stand in line and watch them talk to the white person ahead of you, but then when your turn came, it was, like I said, not even eye contact. Just business as usual. I personally noticed those types of things. Franklin: Sure, yeah. I think, I guess today we might call them microaggresions or something like that, yeah. But they add up, though, don’t they? Curfman: Yes, yes. Franklin: How come you moved out to Benton City? Curfman: The guy that I remarried was raised on a farm in Montana and he wanted farmland. So we moved out there and bought four acres. He was white, so. Franklin: He felt that—was that—not to pry too much, but that was kind of a stir at that point, interracial marriage? Curfman: Yes, yes, yes. Franklin: Did you ever receive any negative attention because of that? Curfman: I think so. Actually, I can remember this one time not too long after we moved out there, we were out kind of moving the irrigation pipe around, and this neighbor from around the corner drove up and introduced herself to him. It was almost like she thought me and my kids were his hired help. So she was talking directly to him, inviting him over, you know. We’d like to get to know you, blah, blah, blah. To this day, I really think that—I’m sure after we were there for a while, she found out I was his wife. But at the time she was talking to him, to this day, I think she thought we were just hired help. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Wow. This would’ve been—‘70s? ‘80s? Curfman: This was ’76, ’78, yeah, in the late ‘70s. Franklin: How did your family—how was your family, how did they adjust to the marriage? Were they more welcoming? The black community, was it more welcoming? Curfman: Oh, yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, my grandparents and I had an aunt in Pasco at the time, they had no problems. My parents were still in the South. Of course, we didn’t go there and visit. I felt—a couple times I went back and visited, I felt like I had a couple uncles that treated me kind of cold, and I think it was because I was married to a white guy. They kind of took that personally. Franklin: Because that would’ve caused probably much more of a stir in the South. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Especially among that generation, right? Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Because that had been illegal for quite—not only just a social taboo but it’d been illegal until—some states didn’t even change that until the ‘90s. Curfman: Right, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So, you mentioned that you—so you were 222 chemical analyst and you worked shift work. I’m wondering if you could describe a typical work day. Curfman: Basically, we’d get to work in the morning, we’d have a little short safety meeting. Ahead of time, we’d be assigned stations. We had different stations, like if you were going to be analyzing plutonium. We had different procedures. So I might be assigned to run strontiums tonight; someone else might be assigned to do H-pluses tonight. So you just came in, you know. You expected the shift ahead of you to restock the supplies at the end of their shifts. Sometimes that was done; sometime it wasn’t. So that was always kind of a sore spot, because our analyses were timed, in a sense. Operations would need the results in a timely manner so they could empty a tank or adjust a tank. And if we came in and had to—if the other shift left samples undone and we came in and had to get our supplies together before we could even start, then that just—kind of a snowball effect. So there was always tension between the shifts, depending on if that shift did their housekeeping before they left, before the next shift came in. But as a rule, we were almost like a family. We did a lot of—for instance, on graveyard, we would do like a communal breakfast on our breaks. Sometimes there was times where people didn’t want to do breakfast; they wanted to take a nap during their lunch hour. So it was one of those things where, I’m going to sleep for 30 minutes; you wake me up. Of course, we had those little clocks we could set. So we just took care of each other. Franklin: Yeah, how would you describe your relationships with your coworkers? Curfman: Oh, awesome. Yeah, we did lots of things together. Went to Richland basketball games, we followed the Bombers. A lot of parties at our homes. So, yeah, we did. It was good. Franklin: You became very close with your fellow coworkers. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And did you feel a sense of belonging with your coworkers? Curfman: Absolutely, yes. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your supervisors or management? Curfman: I’ve always had a good relationship. When I was on shiftwork, one of my first managers was female, Louise Gray. I think she was—I’m pretty sure she was the first female manager in the laboratory. And we would have—we would go to her house for things and we would do things away from work, like Halloween parties and things like that. So we had a good relationship. Once a month, on our long change there for a while, we would always get together as a group for dinner, like at Chinese Gardens and things like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Curfman: So it was always fun. Franklin: Oh, that’s wonderful. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: And then you became an engineering tech in ’78. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Where was that at? Curfman: That was at Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: At PFP. Curfman: Mm-hm. Franklin: How long did you—did you work there, then, for the rest of your career? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And what is an engineering tech? What does that mean? Curfman: We kind of assisted the engineers. We would go out—I mean, I would go out and take readings off the tanks in the morning and bring them back to them so that they could do their engineering data calculations and things like that. So that they could in turn tell operations what adjustments they needed to make. So, a lot of data analysis, data gathering. Versus in the lab, I was doing hands-on work. Franklin: Were your—I imagine, kind of growing up in Tennessee, you know, Hanford may have been the last place you thought you might have ended up, working out with plutonium. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How did your family react to your—did they ever express any concern? Were they proud? Were they just really kind of curious? Curfman: Well, they were afraid when I had to apply for my Q clearance, and at that time the FBI went to your house. So of course, the FBI went to their house in Tennessee and it scared them to death, because what is she doing? [LAUGHTER] What did she do? But I had somewhat of the same reaction from neighbors in the Tri-Cities when the FBI would go talk to them. I actually had a neighbor mention that here just a couple months ago, that when I moved in—well, it wasn’t when I moved where I am now, but just when they do the every five- or ten-year update, they had gone and talked to this one neighbor and he was saying, like, scared me to death! You know. And that was not too long ago, you know. Franklin: Wow. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. And then in 1982, you were promoted to shift supervisor, lab manager. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And you were the first African American woman lab manager on Site. Curfman: That’s true, yeah. Franklin: Was that—how’d you find out that you were the first? Curfman: You know, right now it’s just from talking to people and looking back. I’d like to find that out for sure, because I think it would be a legacy to leave to my grandkids. We know that Louise Gray was the first female. I know that a guy by the name of Jim Burden was the first black male. So right now, just from talking, I can’t think of anybody before me. Franklin: And, certainly, even if you weren’t the first, you were one of—a groundbreaking thing. So you moved into management. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And how was that different? How’d you adapt, and what did you do to adapt to that role? Curfman: Of course, a lot of classes and a lot of training. It was a struggle for a while, because a lot of the people that worked for me had degrees like they may not have necessarily been scientists or chemists but they might have been the next teacher or some other profession where they had a degree. So I think there was some resentment sometimes when not only was I a black female but I didn’t have a degree. So, you know, so that was, just depending on the people. Franklin: Did you ever have any difficulties managing—being a minority, managing largely a majority white workforce? Curfman: Yes, uh-huh. Yeah. Franklin: Could you describe that? Curfman: Well, you know, certainly there were—of course we had the cultural differences, but I think more than me being black, it was more me not having a degree. Even though I had white counterparts. The male manager that hired me didn’t have a degree. There were a lot of them out there, didn’t have—they did have nuclear experience from the Navy, but they did not have degrees. But it seemed—there seemed to have been a lot of emphasis on me not having a degree. Which, I kind of resented that. I’m like, look at him, look at him, look at—you know. Franklin: Right, I mean, as long as you can do the—I mean, seniority experience counts for quite a bit. Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yeah, that makes sense though. I mean, you know. Certainly something to point to. Curfman: And it did start—I’m sorry. Franklin: No, no, go ahead. Curfman: It did start being less of a problem, because at one point—and I never saw it in writing, but it was said that eight years’ experience was equal to a four-year degree. So, as I got more experience, then it was kind of like, well, in a sense she does. Franklin: Right, and I feel like you kind of see that on job postings, where it’s like x number of experience or a degree in the field. Curfman: Yes, yes, uh-huh. Franklin: And so you were—what kinds of—I mean, as much as you can talk about it, I know PFP there was a lot of secret work going on out there, but what kinds of—what kind of work did you supervise? What kind of work was going on in the lab? Curfman: Okay, basically, what we did is analyze samples from the operations. You know, they’d send us a sample and they’d want to know if it was, how many grams of plutonium was in it. So we would analyze it and then send the results back to them, and based on the results, they’d say, we’re good, or no, we need to add more acid, or no, we need to add more base. Things of that nature. Or we need to empty the tank or we can’t empty the tank. We can’t empty the tank—it’s full, but we can’t empty it because the results aren’t what they need to be. So it was—so we were quality control, mainly. Yeah. Franklin: Ah, that makes sense. And you did that until 2010? Curfman: Yes, but I went from shift manager—in 1983, I was shift manager, and I can’t remember but I was promoted throughout the years in different levels of management. And when I left in—well, I actually left in 2007 because of a health issue. But when I left, I was a Level 3 which was the top laboratory manager. Franklin: Oh, wow. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Curfman: Challenging was every ten years they would change contractors, so it was always challenging to learn new management, what the expectations were, new procedures. I had bargaining unit people working for me, so it was always a challenge to work with the unions and answer grievances and things like that. It seems like there was always people that if they could have you in a grievance meeting, they wouldn’t have to be in the lab working. So sometimes you felt like people created problems just to get out of work. Rewarding was having come from where I came from, to be in the position that I was in. I was 1994 Westinghouse Women’s History Month nominee. So there were things to be proud of. There was a lot of—I did a lot of things, like I represented the laboratory in Washington, DC and won a black national caucus. Represented the caucus at universal Washington black engineers’ conference. Things like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Yeah, those are—those really are rewarding aspects. Did you still have family in east Pasco for quite a while after you moved here? Curfman: Mm-hm. Franklin: Did you go to attend any church events or community events in east Pasco? Curfman: Oh, yes, uh-huh. I was librarian for East Pasco Church of God for quite a few years. So, yes. Franklin: Is that a predominantly black church? Curfman: It was at the time, yes. Franklin: At the time. What role did church play in the black community? Curfman: Very important role, and actually, the majority of the churches now are still pretty much black. Morning Star is one of the—used to be one of the biggest in east Pasco, and it’s probably predominantly still black. New Hope, predominantly still black. So, yeah, I don’t know. Franklin: What about did you go to any cultural celebrations like Juneteenth, or— Curfman: Oh, yes, uh-huh, yeah. I actually worked with the Juneteenth committee, with the contestants for Miss Black Afro-American—Miss Juneteenth. I was part of that committee with Eloise Williams. Did a lot of that. What else? A lot of church activities. A lot of involvement with—we used to have what was called confederated choir where once a month, the first Sunday of the month, all the churches would go to a different church at 3:00 in the afternoon and all the different choirs would sing. So that was always fun. A lot of church picnics and potlucks and things like that. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard of, I think Pastor Wilkins was telling me about that, the all-church meeting. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: What’s special about Juneteenth? Why is that such a big event for African Americans? Curfman: Because we feel like that was when we were really freed. It wasn’t July 4th. So it’s just something to be proud of. We don’t seem to be—the younger generation seems to be losing it; we don’t seem to be getting as large a crowd as we used to. It has diversified. We get a lot of white people that attend, which we like that. You know, we don’t have an issue with that. But we like to keep it going, something that the community can be proud of. Franklin: Did people bring—or did you or others that migrated from the South bring any other traditions with them, like food, especially? Curfman: Oh, yeah. Yeah, my family in particular, pecan pie is a big deal for my entire family. But just—I have a sister in Pasco now, I mean, every day she still cooks the soul food, the greens and the cabbage and the black-eyed peas type of thing, because that’s how she was raised. And my grandmother and my aunt and people like that, I think most of the old-timers cook like that. They brought that. Barbecue, of course. Chicken—fried chicken. Franklin: Yes. Very, very, very good. How was your civil rights experience here different from Memphis? Curfman: I just feel like it was more freedom. You know, I can remember coming home from church—my mother worked in a restaurant where it was all white. She was a cook. So if we went to visit her, we had to go to the backdoor. She had to go in the backdoor; she couldn’t come in the front. She used to not like us to call at work because the phone was out front. If we called her, she’d have to go out front, and her bosses didn’t want the black people out front. So that was always an issue. If we had some issue at school and we had to call her, you know. I can remember coming home from church once and it was really hot outside. We cut across the park that was a whites-only park, and we were drinking water from the water fountain, and we saw the police, they were all like, hey, hey, hey! There was like three or four of us and we ran home. Went home, changed clothes, messed up my hair. Because if the police came by looking for us, we didn’t want to look like we had just came from church. We didn’t want to look like the same people. So coming from that environment and coming here, and going to any park. There were a lot of barbecues back during that—a lot of things in the parks and there were other people besides black people. When I moved on Wright Street I had a neighbor that was a white lady, and she was real strong German, still had a real strong German accent. And she was just lovely to us. She baked cookies for my babies and was just, wow, this is pretty neat. I mean, she was really nice. So that would be something that I could write home and tell my mom: I have this white neighbor and she’s really nice. Franklin: That’s quite different. Yeah, that’s a very striking difference. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: Let’s see here. Right there. Could you describe the ways in which the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Curfman: Yes, because we couldn’t—for instance, when they do the background checks, and I’ve had family or neighbors talk about the FBI coming asking questions, I could tell them it had to do with work, but I couldn’t really tell them why. It didn’t impact the work that much, other than we knew what was secret and what wasn’t, because we had to stamp things secret and we knew what we could talk about and not talk about. I think it was a little better when I was out there, we were starting to lean a little more towards closing down and doing cleanup, versus the people back during construction, as to why were building this plant. The secret, when I was there, the secret stuff came down to analysis. We didn’t want to say what our analysis was, kind of thing, versus what we were doing. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Curfman: I think I would like them to know that opportunities are there. I feel like I’m an example of it. I came from Tennessee, segregated community, no degree and went to work at Hanford and retired at the top of, you know, the management chain. And I do still have family right now that that’s something that—because I still have family in Tennessee that’s doing domestic work and working in restaurants. So, to them, I’m a success story. Franklin: Is there anything else that you wanted to say in regards to race and your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Curfman: Not really. I can’t think of anything in specific. Just that I think you have to work harder than anybody else, and I definitely felt like I had to work harder. I had to take more classes. I felt like I had to take more classes than anybody else. I actually had one manager one time tell me, well, no, we need to let someone else go; you go to too many classes. But the opportunity was there, was presented to me, and I took that opportunity. So, yeah. Franklin: Like, you kind of had to compensate extra? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: For being African—a black female. Curfman: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Franklin: Well, Liz, thank you very much for a very enlightening interview. I really appreciate you telling your experience and your accomplishments. Curfman: Thank you. Franklin: Awesome. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 222-S Laboratory 200 Area 200 East Plutonium Finishing Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1968- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1968-2007 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Liz Curfman Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) West Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Civil rights Civil rights movements Affirmative action Basketball Description An account of the resource Liz Curfman moved to the Tri-Cities area in 1968. Liz Curfman worked on the Hanford Site from 1968-2007. Description A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/16/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b36bf3f96a36d6f03be61d76aa1a43c.JPG e6c57e88700e3daf112882bfe107728a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe858263aff645c79e7a9c2b67dd4702b.mp4 eceb2621daa76c475cbce2aad1d28218 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Andy and Shirley Miller Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Andy and Shirley Miller on June 26, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Andy and Shirley about their experiences living in the Tri-Cities and/or working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Start with— Andy Miller: Andy Miller, A-N-D-Y. M-I-L-L-E-R. Franklin: Okay. Shirley Miller: And Shirley Miller, S-H-I-R-L-E-Y, M-I-L-L-E-R. Franklin: Great, thank you. Shirley, let’s start about talking about your life before Hanford and the Tri-Cities. Where and when were you born? Shirley Miller: Where and when was I born? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: Well, I was born in Kansas. Franklin: Okay. Shirley Miller: In Pratt, Kansas. Andy Miller: In 1929. Shirley Miller: Uh-huh. Franklin: How did you hear about the Tri-Cities? How did you come here? Shirley Miller: My husband got a job. Franklin: Okay. For--? Shirley Miller: Who did he work for? Andy Miller: General Electric. Shirley Miller: General Electric. Franklin: And what year did you move out here? Shirley Miller: Oh, God. Andy Miller: It was right after your wedding date. Shirley Miller: Oh, I can’t remember. Andy Miller: In 1951. Shirley Miller: 1951. Andy Miller: And you want to tell him where you met Dad? Shirley Miller: Where’d I meet him? Andy Miller: Uh-huh. Shirley Miller: Where’d I meet him? Andy Miller: In college. Shirley Miller: Oh, in college. Andy Miller: At KU. Shirley Miller: At KU, okay. Franklin: What were your first impressions when you came to Richland? Shirley Miller: That it was a bare town. Franklin: That’s pretty fair. And where was the first place you stayed after you arrived? Shirley Miller: The first place? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: Well, probably in the hotel, and then I went to a place they gave us to stay in. Franklin: Where—what kind of place was that? Shirley Miller: Wasn’t that a little house? Andy Miller: The prefab. Shirley Miller: A prefab? Andy Miller: You know what street it was on? Shirley Miller: No, unh-uh. Andy Miller: Snow Street. Shirley Miller: Oh, Snow Street, okay, it was on Snow Street. It was right across the street from the school. Franklin: Oh, okay. Andy, was that where you were born, or is that where your parents were living— Andy Miller: I was born at Kadlec, and I went from Kadlec to the prefab. Franklin: And what—do you remember the address of the prefab? Andy Miller: It was right across from Marcus Whitman. I think it was 512. Shirley Miller: 512. 512 Snow. Franklin: Okay. I used to live on Stanton. That’s where I stayed when I first moved here, yeah. That’s a cute little neighborhood. So what was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Shirley Miller: Oh, you asking me? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: What was the hardest part--? Andy Miller: What did you miss the most about Kansas? What was the hardest thing about living here? Shirley Miller: Well, I— Andy Miller: It was hard on your asthma. Shirley Miller: I mean, just the difference of a town like this, that was just built from different houses. I mean, it was a different type of living. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Okay. Shirley Miller: I mean, not having different homes. Yeah. Franklin: What did your husband do for General Electric? Shirley Miller: He was an engineer. Franklin: Engineer, okay. And, Andy, you said you were born—what year—you said you were born at Kadlec. What year were you born? Andy Miller: 1953. Franklin: 1953, okay. And how long did you stay at the house on Snow? Andy Miller: We moved to a ranch house on Cottonwood in 1958. Franklin: Okay, that’s also in Richland? Andy Miller: Yup, and it was also one of the government houses that was built right after Hanford was constructed. Franklin: Okay. So when did you—Shirley, when did you first become involved in the groups like the NAACP or CORE, Congress of Racial Equality? How did you become involved with trying to help the African American community? Shirley Miller: How did I come--? I don’t know, how did I? Andy Miller: Well, Nyla Brouns. That’s where you met Nyla. Shirley Miller: Yeah? Andy Miller: And Randy Jones. Shirley Miller: Randy Jones, uh-huh, Randy Jones, okay. It was Randy Jones, I lived next-door to her, yeah. Yeah, I lived next-door to Randy Jones. And I went to meetings and became involved. Andy Miller: Randy was an African American, married to her husband Herb, and they had two children. So our families became social friends and Rindy was one of the African American leaders in the city of Richland. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Andy Miller: And she worked in Pasco. She helped get CORE started and was very active in the NAACP. Franklin: And CORE stands for Congress On Racial Equality. Andy Miller: Congress Of Racial Equality, I think, yeah. Franklin: Congress Of Racial Equality. Okay. Do you remember what year—either of you remember what year that would’ve been, around? Andy Miller: I think it’d be about ’62 or ’63. Franklin: Okay. What were the primary activities of CORE and the NAACP in the Tri-Cities? Shirley Miller: Hmm. Trying to find houses for people. Is that one? Andy Miller: Uh-huh, yeah, that’s what you’ve mentioned. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Andy Miller: Well, I think Mom just mentioned the housing issue. And she actually has a good story about helping the first African American family move into Kennewick, because up until that time, Kennewick did not allow African Americans to live there. Shirley Miller: Yes, and we worked on that. Andy Miller: You want to tell him what you did with the Slaughters? Shirley Miller: No, what did we do? I mean, tell me. You— Andy Miller: You were just telling me, you remember when the Slaughters would call for a house to rent? And they were told, no, what would you and Dad do? Shirley Miller: Oh, yeah. Then we would call up and ask, and they would say, yes, and then we would call back. Andy Miller: And who else did that? Nyla? Shirley Miller: Nyla, oh, because Nyla did it more than I did because she’s better on the telephone than I. Yeah. Andy Miller: So they would—because there was no written ordinance, but it was a practice. So what would happen is the Slaughters would respond to an ad and they would be refused. Then Mom and Dad and Dick and Nyla Brouns, they would then call the same people and they would be offered the ability to rent the house. So that put a lot of pressure. They actually did file complaints. The law wasn’t as good as it is now, but there was some legal leverage and finally the Slaughters were able to find a house in Kennewick to rent. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, we interviewed John Slaughter early on. Andy Miller: Good, good. Franklin: And he told me—he mentioned this part of his civil rights history. That’s excellent. Who were other important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Andy Miller: Do you remember some of the other people you worked with? There was Robert and Evelyn Jackson. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: And Robert was a lawyer who worked for what was then the AEC. Shirley Miller: Oh, they were very important. Andy Miller: Yes. And do you want to tell the story that Robert hit home for us some of the background of how Robert was able to go to law school? Shirley Miller: By sitting in the back of the room. Andy Miller: Not in the back of the room. In the hallway. Shirley Miller: In the hallway, okay. Andy Miller: Yeah, Robert was admitted to University of Virginia Law School by court order. But he had to sit in the hallway because the law school would not sit him in the room. They had said they couldn’t be in the same room with white students. So he had to—they would leave the door open while he would listen to the lectures. And then after graduating, he came out here where he got his first job. So he was—and him being a lawyer made him a leader. He lived in Richland, but we had—you worked with a lot of people. Iola James, do you remember her? Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Andy Miller: And do you remember some other people that lived in Pasco that you worked with? Shirley Miller: Oh, I can’t remember. Andy Miller: Okay. But it was a combination of professionals who lived in Richland and then with other African Americans who lived in east Pasco. And then you got to know people like Wally Webster. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Very definitely. He was the leader. Did you talk to Wally Webster? Franklin: We are talking to Wally Webster in about less than a month. He’s coming over from the west side for a family reunion. Shirley Miller: Good. Franklin: I’ve talked to him on the phone, though. I’ve talked to him, and we’ve talked to Webster Jackson. Andy Miller: Yes. Franklin: And we’ve talked to Pastor Albert Wilkins. Shirley Miller: Yeah, he was very active. Franklin: And talked to Dallas Barnes. Andy Miller: Mom was good—they still have dinner together with Dallas and Lozie. Franklin: Oh, okay. We wanted to kind of—we’re closing in on the end of the interview project, but I don’t know if we can kind of round out—we wanted to get some of the experiences of allies of the civil rights effort to round everything out. You know, why people would get involved to help others at a time when there was a lot of violence directed at African Americans and certainly a lot of resistance towards— Shirley Miller: Well, it was only the fair thing to do. Goodness. Franklin: Yeah. Yes, that’s true. Were there ever any tensions between the professionals in Richland and the residents of east Pasco, as to, like class tensions within the movement? Andy Miller: Do you understand what he was saying, Mom? Did sometimes people in east Pasco resent or be suspicious of the African Americans from Richland? Shirley Miller: Right, yes. Franklin: How did that play out? Were there any manifestations of those tensions? Any disagreements or violence? Shirley Miller: I think there was, not violence but disagreements. Kind of anger at each other. Not anger, but— Franklin: Kind of a dislike or— Shirley Miller: I think. Andy Miller: My memory from what Mom and Dad told me was that there were frank discussions. Shirley Miller: That’s a better word. Andy Miller: But they never got angry at each other, and there was always a working-together coalition. But there would be suspicion and sometimes some resentments that would be expressed. Shirley Miller: That’s right. Andy Miller: But there was never—at least from what Mom and Dad have told me over the years, there was never a fracturing of the movement in Tri-Cities. They stayed united. Shirley Miller: Yes, yes, there was never a fracture. Franklin: Did each city—you mentioned housing in Kennewick, and I know that for east Pasco, a lot of the civil rights effort was focused around things like street improvements, right, and water and sewer, and employment. Did Richland have any unique civil rights challenges? Because—was housing an issue? Was it similar to the other cities, or was there something different about Richland? Andy Miller: Yes. Mom, did you want to tell him about when you were on the Richland Human Rights Commission and your work on the fair housing ordinance? Shirley Miller: No, go ahead. Andy Miller: No, do you remember? Shirley Miller: No, unh-uh. I remember working on it, but I don’t remember any action. Andy Miller: Well, certainly, Mom talked, and I do remember, is that there was housing discrimination in Richland also, but more on the individual home owners basis. Shirley Miller: Yeah, that is definitely true. Andy Miller: And when you first were on the Human Rights Commission, when you first went to city council, were they for it at first, or were they against it at first? Shirley Miller: Well, I don’t think they were for it at first. But they were later. Andy Miller: So, Mom and I think—was Mr. Mitchell on the Human Rights Commission? There were some other people on the Human Rights Commission. Shirley Miller: He could’ve been. Probably, because he was so active, yeah. I can’t remember. Andy Miller: But you remember working to get—in Richland was I think one of the first cities to adopt a fair housing ordinance in the Northwest. Franklin: Okay. That’s great. Andy Miller: And thanks to Mom—and it was a coalition of whites in Richland and African Americans that were on the Human Rights Commission and they worked together to pressure the city. Franklin: Great, great. What were some of the notable successes of the civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? Shirley Miller: What? Franklin: What were some of the successes of the civil rights efforts in the Tri-Cities? Shirley Miller: I don’t know what that— Andy Miller: Well, I mean, what are some good things that came out? I think part of it is, you had a lot of the marches. Shirley Miller: We had good marches. Andy Miller: And do you remember what the marches were for? Shirley Miller: No, what were they for? I remember the marches. Andy Miller: Well, I think it was during the time that Dr. King was working. Shirley Miller: Oh, you’re really going back far. Franklin: Yeah. Andy Miller: That’s what they wanted to know about. Do you want to tell them where the marches would start when we would go to Pasco and have the marches? Shirley Miller: At the park in Pasco. Andy Miller: In east Pasco. Kurtzman Park. And where’d we go after we left Kurtzman Park? Shirley Miller: We’d march across the bridge and through the town— Andy Miller: Through the underpass. Shirley Miller: Underpass. And then we went up usually to where that other park was and what building is that? Andy Miller: The courthouse? Shirley Miller: Uh-huh, the courthouse. Andy Miller: And then we’d go back to Kurtzman Park. Do you remember what kind of reaction we got sometimes on those marches? Shirley Miller: Well, negative, sometimes, yes. Andy Miller: From people that would drive by? Shirley Miller: Yes, uh-huh. Andy Miller: What would they do? Shirley Miller: I mean, not—down. Andy Miller: And would they ever wave anything? Shirley Miller: A flag, yes. Andy Miller: They would—my memory was that you would have people driving by and yelling obscenities and waving a confederate flag. Shirley Miller: Yes, oh, yeah! That was the main—yeah. The confederate flag held up. Andy Miller: And that is why I never understood people who talk about confederate flags being a heritage. Because my first experience with a confederate flag was that it was used as a hate symbol to try to intimidate African Americans and whites with them during these marches that were there to support. Another memory I have is the marches back then, and I was only probably about ten, but the marches back then had a different atmosphere than marches that people go on today. We would get pep talks about the types of things that may happen, that people are going to try to goad us into violence. And I remember one African American woman, she was older, coming to me and specifically saying, there’s going to be people to try to get you to yell back, or try to do something and back. And I think she really focused on some of the younger white boys, to making sure that we would not undermine the march. So I just really remember being impressed with the strength. Shirley Miller: Yeah, that’s good, you have the better memory. That’s good. Andy Miller: And another thing that—when he’s asking about things that made a difference is, do you remember the Elks? Shirley Miller: Yeah, I remember the Elks. Andy Miller: And what did we do with the Elks Lodge? Shirley Miller: We picketed. Andy Miller: Because? Shirley Miller: Oh, they wouldn’t let white people in. I mean, not—they wouldn’t let black people in. Andy Miller: Mm-hmm. And back then the Pasco Elks was—I mean, some people said it was a private club and shouldn’t—they should be able to decide who should be members or not. But what Mom and Dad were upset about and everybody was upset about is, at that time in Pasco, so much of the power structure of the community groups—the Hanford groups would all meet at the Pasco Elks Club. Shirley Miller: And then blacks weren’t welcome to go in. Franklin: Right. So thereby excluded from— Shirley Miller: Yeah. Franklin: From the power structure of the community. Andy Miller: Right. And so, Mom, what did—what happened, were you and Dad invited to other functions, like political functions and community functions at the Elks Club? And people invite you to dinner at the Elks Club? Shirley Miller: Yeah, but we didn’t go. Andy Miller: Right. And you lost some friends over that. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: And you always say that—that one march that we talked about one time picketing, who was there when you were picketing? Shirley Miller: I can’t remember. Andy Miller: Dad’s boss. Shirley Miller: Oh, yes, uh-huh. Franklin: Jeez, wow. He was—you were picketing at the Elks Club? Andy Miller: Dad and Mom were picketing an event that was being held at the Elks Club. It was a community event. And I know that Dad and Mom came back—they never backed down, I want to emphasize that—but I remember Mom and Dad came back and Dad was told by a lot of people he worked with that he had hurt his career by picketing at the Elks Club. I think that his— Shirley Miller: Yes, he was. Yeah, he was told that. Andy Miller: Yeah, but his boss later talked to him about it, and I think that it ended up being a positive experience. Of course, the Elks Club, I think though it may have been legal action, they ended up discontinuing their policy. Franklin: Yeah. Well, I also heard about an incident in Kennewick where some Richland High students—I think, was it Norris Brown that told me this? I’ve heard so many stories now that—where there were a group of Richland High students who weren’t allowed to go to a teenage club, because there were a couple black students with them; the black students were excluded. Do you have any memory of that? No? Okay. Andy Miller: I don’t, because Norris is probably about ten years older than I am. Franklin: Okay, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Okay. What were some of the biggest challenges, or the—I don’t want to use the word failure, but some of the biggest—some of the harder things to get accomplished with civil rights, or maybe even failures, things that were tried but weren’t—never fully addressed? Shirley Miller: What was that? Andy Miller: Well, he was wondering, what were some of the biggest challenges? Like, what were some of the hardest things you worked on in the civil rights movement? Shirley Miller: Well, my memory isn’t just— Andy Miller: Well, I think that— Shirley Miller: Housing was one. Andy Miller: Yes. Because even at the end of the civil rights movement, did blacks—did they really, were they able to live in Pasco except east Pasco? Shirley Miller: No. Andy Miller: That was something that I think that you—at the meetings that you guys let me go to, was a big issue for people, that that was not an easy thing to get done. As opposed to now, where I think the certain demographics are there in Pasco, located, but not anything like there was. Shirley Miller: Oh, your memory’s so good. Andy Miller: Well, I’m mainly remembering things that you told me. Shirley Miller: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, you guys are both working well off each other. So I think that’s good. You probably wouldn’t have as much to remember if you weren’t there with him. Andy Miller: Right. That’s right. And I think the school is—Whittier School. Remember Whittier School, Mom? Shirley Miller: Yeah, and it was definitely segregated. Andy Miller: And was Whittier School, were the facilities as good as the other schools in Pasco? Shirley Miller: What? Andy Miller: Was Whittier School as nice as the other schools in Pasco? Shirley Miller: No, unh-unh. Andy Miller: And that was something that you and Nyla and Iola James, the Jacksons, something that you worked on. That was not, I don’t think that was easy, from my memory of you talking about that. And finally, Whittier School was closed, is that right? Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Where did the students—did the students then get bussed out to other— Andy Miller: I think they were dispersed, and I think that there was issues about the lack of fairness, the way that was handled. My memory, just being told of the time, was Whittier School was closed, but then that wasn’t an instant solution, because the way they were dispersed and everything was not fairly handled, is my memory. Franklin: Right. What about—were you involved with the redevelopment, the Urban Renewal, in Pasco? Andy Miller: I think he’s talking about Art Fletcher. I think he was involved in some of that. Franklin: Yeah. Were you involved in that as well? Shirley Miller: Went to meetings, but not as a leadership. Franklin: Okay. Shirley Miller: He did that. Franklin: He was a big—he was the—who was Art Fletcher? Andy Miller: He was an African American in Pasco. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: And I think he was on the city council, and he actually authorized, I think, or helped create some self-help projects and Urban Renewal. Shirley Miller: Uh-huh, he was very active. Andy Miller: But I do remember, speaking of tensions, I think that—I don’t think the approach he was taking was not universally advocated by a lot of the African Americans in Pasco. And I think there were some disagreements. But the people you’re talking to would have a better handle on that. I think Wally Webster was the first director of the Community Action Committee. Shirley Miller: He was very active. Talk to him. Andy Miller: He’s going to talk to him pretty soon. But I think he replaced another CAC director. And there was some controversy over that. Shirley Miller: I can’t remember anyway. Andy Miller: I think Pat Cochrane was the prior director. Shirley Miller: Oh, oh, yeah. And he—yes, we wanted him rather than Pat Cochrane. Andy Miller: Yes. And then Art Fletcher later on became involved in the Republican party and ran for lieutenant governor and he actually got a high job with the, I think, HEW in Washington, DC. Franklin: Right, under the Nixon Administration. Andy Miller: Under the Nixon Administration, that’s correct. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard lots of people have mentioned that, oh, he went on to be in the Nixon Administration. How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts in the Tri-Cities? Shirley Miller: I think it influenced but not—what do you think? Andy Miller: I think you’re right, influenced. A lot of the marches that we went to in Pasco were to support what was happening in the South. Shirley Miller: Uh-huh, definitely. Andy Miller: Like after the bombings on— Shirley Miller: Oh, yes, they were, too. Andy Miller: And to build support. They also—and I do remember Mom and Dad talking, and they certainly understood, but CORE changed its emphasis during that time on a national level. Shirley Miller: And CORE became much more active locally after that. Andy Miller: Yes, CORE did. And then later when CORE changed is that CORE then became more of a thing, that CORE was more of a group for African Americans, as opposed to African Americans and whites. And that—you and Dad talked about that here. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Andy Miller: Whereas NAACP remained more of an integrated organization. Is that—my memory right? Shirley Miller: Right. Franklin: So CORE became kind of more exclusive then, or they— Andy Miller: I want to emphasize that Mom and Dad never felt upset with the local CORE leadership. Shirley Miller: No, unh-uh. Andy Miller: But I think there was an acknowledgement that while NAACP continued its traditional approach, that CORE really wanted to foster leadership among African Americans and so they could be frank with each other and work on that, which reflects what CORE was doing on a national level at that time. Franklin: Right, right, right. Thank you. What was different about civil rights efforts here, compared to the national civil rights effort? Shirley Miller: I don’t know. What did you think? Andy Miller: Well, I mean, we were not down in the South. We certainly didn’t have police dogs break up demonstrations, and there wasn’t probably some of the blatant things that happened in the South. Shirley Miller: Oh, not at all. Andy Miller: No one was—there were no bombings or no killings here. So that was certainly different, though there was pushback. Mom, do you want to talk about some of the phone calls you got back then? Shirley Miller: What do you mean, the phone calls? Andy Miller: When you would go to a meeting in Pasco or go to a protest in Pasco, what kind of phone calls you would get later? Shirley Miller: For me to stay home, because I wasn’t a member of Pasco. Yeah, I had that. Franklin: Wait, who were the phone calls from? Shirley Miller: People in Pasco. Andy Miller: But did they tell you their name, or were they just telling you kind of anonymously to stay out? Shirley Miller: Anonymously and some would say where they worked. Franklin: Oh. Shirley Miller: Like I work over in east Pasco, or I work here. Franklin: These were presumably white people calling to harass you to tell you to stay home and don’t get involved? Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yeah, wow. Did that happen a lot? Shirley Miller: No, but it happened some. Enough to bother me. Franklin: Yeah. Was there any kind of way you could report that, or was it just something that you had to face, endure? Shirley Miller: Yeah, I didn’t report it to anyone, other than other people in the group. Franklin: Right. Andy Miller: But I think the consensus was there would be no point in reporting it, is that right? Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Just kind of look the other way? Andy Miller: Right. Franklin: Did your husband or your father ever face any reprisals or anything from his work in civil rights? Any like job or, with his employment or anything? Andy Miller: I do remember a story that when one of his bosses retired that he was told that he may have been named president, if it wasn’t for his wife causing all these problems in Pasco. Shirley Miller: Oh, yeah, I remember that. Andy Miller: But Dad—I want to emphasize, Dad ended up being promoted to executive vice president of United Nuclear and so he had professional success. But I think there was—he received some pushback at work. Shirley Miller: Yes, there was pushback at work. Andy Miller: But Dad always discounted it and said it didn’t bother him. Is that a fair--? Shirley Miller: Right. Franklin: Oh, that’s wonderful. When you came here, and when you grew up here, Andy, what did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Andy Miller: You know, I—well, we knew that most African Americans, when they were brought up here, had to live in east Pasco. So we had that understanding. Shirley Miller: Yes, that was very, uh-huh. And it was very true. Andy Miller: But I will say that CBC’s had a recent exhibit and there’s been some writings on books, and I will say I learned a lot of that, the real history of African Americans in the Tri-City area for the first time just a few years ago. And coming from my family, it shows, if I wasn’t as aware as I should’ve been, people in the Tri-Cities just don’t want to talk about it. And I think you still see some of that now. People—there’s still a reaction of, why are we talking about what happened 60 years ago? Shirley Miller: Yeah, that’s definitely true. Andy Miller: But it just—it wasn’t discussed as much 50 years ago as clearly it should’ve been. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard that same kind of thing. Luckily not when I brought up this project, specifically, but—actually, I did hear that in a meeting of an organization I belong to, the B Reactor Museum Association. An out-of-town member who was wondering why we were focusing on all this. Andy Miller: Right. Franklin: All these black people, when whites made up the majority of workers anyway, so we should be focusing on them, was something like the comment. I’m wondering—well, I have a follow-up question to that question about African Americans at Hanford during World War II and after. From your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Shirley Miller: What was that question again? Franklin: From your perspective, what were African Americans’ most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Shirley Miller: Oh, I don’t know. What do you--? Andy Miller: Well, I think he’s just saying, what makes you the most proud? I think, Mom, weren’t you always impressed—I think you were equally impressed by the people you met in east Pasco and the professionals in Richland, as far as showing a lot of leadership and courage— Shirley Miller: Yeah! Andy Miller: --in trying to integrate the Tri-Cities. Shirley Miller: Uh-huh. Andy Miller: And— Shirley Miller: Gosh, these are so questions of olden time. Franklin: Yeah, that’s the conflict in doing oral history, is that we often don’t think to start asking these questions until a long time has passed and we want to really know what happened. Shirley Miller: Gosh, I got stuff in my hair. Franklin: Because we don’t think it’s history when it’s happening, and then when we realize we need to get it, it’s often—that’s why I really appreciate you sitting down with us. Andy Miller: I do have a memory, too, of—especially African Americans in Richland, I think were held to a different standard sometimes. They all had to be successful and perfect behavior. And you talk to some of them and their parents, it was acknowledged that I could do something, and an African American student could do the same thing, and the reaction was not going to be the same. And I do remember comments and things like that. So I think there was a lot of pressure, especially on African Americans in Richland going into school. There weren’t that many, and it seemed like, and often many of them talked about, being on display at all times. Franklin: Yeah, that—people have alluded to that, but I don’t think have stated it quite as succinctly as you did. Although maybe they wouldn’t have wanted to—that certainly seems—one of the things that’s come across, especially a lot of the Mitchells and the Browns were told, you know, you got to just be the best student you can be, and turn the other cheek and things like that. Shirley Miller: I can imagine that, and they acted that way, too. Andy Miller: Yes, and Duke Mitchell was two years ahead of me in high school, and he was. He was one of those people everybody in the high school looked up to. He was, I guess, kind of perfect. And he got a scholarship. He went to Air Force Academy, I think. Franklin: : Yeah. Andy Miller: But I think, it’s nice that he’s come back and he’s leading a lot of the efforts now. But he was kind of an example of somebody who—if there was a double standard, he always met it. But I always looked at him and thought about some of the pressure he was under all the time. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. Shirley, did you ever work at Hanford? Shirley Miller: Yes, I worked at Hanford. Franklin: Oh, and what did you do? Shirley Miller: Well, I was not a professional. I was kind of a— Andy Miller: File clerk? Secretary? Shirley Miller: Yeah. Franklin: What time period was this? Shirley Miller: I can’t—what time period? Franklin: Yeah, what— Andy Miller: Was it before I was born or after I was born, or both? Shirley Miller: Both. I mean, I had to quit because I was pregnant with you. Franklin: Oh, okay. Andy Miller: And she came out here with a master’s in counseling and biology from—she got her master’s in KU and a master’s from Northwestern, and the only job she could get here in the early ‘50s was as a file clerk. Shirley Miller: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s saddening but not surprising. My grandmother had a PhD from Cornell in molecular—in biology, and never worked professionally because no one would hire her to do a man’s job in the ‘50s and ‘40s. Andy Miller: Right, yeah. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. Did you ever use your degree in any way? Did you ever have professional work? Shirley Miller: Did I ever get professional work? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: I don’t know. I think that I did, didn’t I? Andy Miller: Well, you ended up owning a bookstore. An independent book store along with a couple other women. A very successful business. Shirley Miller: Oh, yes. Andy Miller: So she used her skills in that. Franklin: Where was that? Shirley Miller: In Richland. Andy Miller: Uptown Richland, called the Book Place. Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. Andy Miller: And you worked at a college instructor for a while, too. Shirley Miller: Uh-huh. Andy Miller: At Central Washington. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, great. Okay. Let’s see here. I’m just trying to figure out what the rest of my questions fit. Did you participate in many social events in east Pasco or in the African American community, like cookouts or Juneteenth or things like that? Or was your involvement mostly with civil rights? I mean, were you close with African American families? Andy Miller: Yes. Mom, he’s just talking about sometimes we’d just go into Pasco just to have like a barbecue. Shirley Miller: Yeah, uh-huh. Andy Miller: And sometimes it’d just be completely social. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Andy Miller: And then in Richland, the same thing? Shirley Miller: Yes, right. Andy Miller: And then what would happen when you were living on the river, what would happen when you would extend the invitation to African American families? Shirley Miller: I would have sometimes objections that people didn’t like me to have African Americans swim in the river next to us. Andy Miller: Yeah, at the time we lived on—well, Mom still lives on Ferry Road which is about half a mile south of WSU Tri-Cities. So, live on the river, and back then, it was different. There was a little swimming beach down there. And Mom does remember—not many of the neighbors would confront her directly, but they would talk about her a lot. And didn’t understand why she was bringing African Americans to north Richland. Is that a fair--? Shirley Miller: Right, fair. Franklin: And you actually got complaints about them swimming on the beach in the river? Shirley Miller: Yeah. But they quit, too. But I kind of quit, too. Franklin: What was the objection? How would they harm the river? Did they ever explain it to you, or was it just a--? Shirley Miller: Just a—it was never like a harm that they basically—no, unh-uh. But it was probably the color of their skin. Franklin: Right, they didn’t want them in their space. In their white space. Andy Miller: It made them feel uncomfortable, I think. And people didn’t feel like they could go down there and swim in the river when there were African Americans there. And I want to emphasize, not all the neighbors—Mom and Dad had neighbors that were strong with them and all that. It was some of them who usually would forward the complaints. I don’t think it was direct complaints. But then Mom and Dad had neighbors who stood up for them, too. Franklin: That’s good. Did you attend church? Andy Miller: Yeah, we went to Central United Protestant Church. Franklin: Okay. Did you ever go to any of the traditionally black churches in east Pasco? Andy Miller: Yes. And that was an experience. And I remember—Mom, remember the first time I went? Because our church was you were silent for the entire hour. And I just remember being stunned within three minutes. It was exciting, I mean, the back and forth, and the enthusiasm. And sometimes we would go to church for a specific reason: they would have a specific service. I know they had one when Dr. King was killed. But then sometimes there’d be a reason that we’d be invited by a family just to attend church. Certainly different experience. Franklin: Did the church play— Andy Miller: Morning Star Baptist was— Franklin: Morning Star. And New Hope, as well. Andy Miller: New Hope, mm-hmm. Franklin: Did the church play a special or different role in the African American community as compared to the white community? Shirley Miller: I don’t know. Andy Miller: Well, people talked about the churches. Shirley Miller: Yes, uh-huh. Yeah, they talked about it, yes. The churches are more of an important part to them. Andy Miller: Yes, and sometimes, some people, some of the African Americans in the civil rights movement did not see eye to eye with ministers on certain issues. Is that right, or--? Shirley Miller: Yeah, uh-huh. I can’t remember all of this. Franklin: : A lot of the civil rights movement came out of the churches, right? Andy Miller: Right. Franklin: A lot of the ministers— Shirley Miller: Yeah, the ministers played an important role. Franklin: Was that the same in the Tri-Cities as well? Were some of the folks prominent here, were they also prominent church people? Andy Miller: Well, yeah, I mean, you mentioned Reverend Wilkins. He was certainly prominent here. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: And a lot of the events happened at the churches. And the churches, a lot of times, formed the base of the— Shirley Miller: Yeah, I think the church were kind of the leaders, yeah. Franklin: So many of the African Americans that came to the area migrated from the South that we know. Andy Miller: Especially Texas. Franklin: Especially Texas, right. Do you recall any traditions or community activities that people brought from the places they came from? Andy Miller: Do you remember any Southern traditions or anything, Mom? Shirley Miller: No, I don’t. Andy Miller: I don’t, either. Shirley Miller: But there could easily have been. But I can’t remember. Franklin: That’s okay. Let’s see here. We talked about—I think we talked pretty much about the rest of that. I just have a couple, like a couple large questions. How did you feel at the time about working near or on—your family working on the development of nuclear weapons? Shirley Miller: How did I feel? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: I accepted. Was I proud? I don’t think so. But I think I just accepted it as a part of the workforce. Huh? What do you say? Andy Miller: Yeah, I think— Shirley Miller: I think my husband was proud. Andy Miller: And— Shirley Miller: He was definitely proud. Andy Miller: And he was active in the B Reactor Museum, later on. They certainly talked about the effects of the nuclear bomb and the effect of the atomic bombs in Japan. But on the other hand, the other side of that is how many people would’ve been killed if not for the bombs. Shirley Miller: Yeah, that was definitely— Andy Miller: Probably was not talked about in Richland as much, but it certainly was talked about in family. But my dad always also maintained that no one made him work there. So he understood the role of nuclear weapons during the Cold War and as just part of the foreign policy. Franklin: Right. How do you feel now about that experience? Kind of looking back on the Cold War and looking at the environmental restoration that has to be done? Andy Miller: Well, Dad always talked about the safety and the waste issues and I know that he reflected there’s a—there’s some things that he wished they had done differently, but he also was proud of some of the things that they did do. That was an important issue to him. But I think that Dad would be—Dad was very progressive in his political views. Shirley Miller: Yes, he was a very strong democrat and active in the party. Andy Miller: But I think he would be irritated at times when people would try to impose late 1990s/early 2000s values on people who were living in the Cold War at the time. And I think he did not know that maybe certain revisionist history does not really take into account the actual climate with what the Soviet Union was doing at the time and some of the political decisions that were made. Franklin: Sure, sure. What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Shirley Miller: The what? Franklin: The most important legacy of Hanford. Shirley Miller: Oh, I don’t know. Well, do you have an idea? Andy Miller: Oh, I think—people can certainly argue with this—but I think Hanford can be proud of helping end World War II. I think that’s an important legacy. And the Cold War, the work that Hanford did in the Cold War may have prevented more wars during that time period. Shirley Miller: Okay, that’s— Andy Miller: Given how the Soviet Union was then. And I think that certainly people would say that perhaps the environmental impact of some of the—when the reactors were being rushed into production, is that better care could’ve been taken of that. And then also I think the benefits of turning the emphasis from weapons to peaceful energy use— Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: --N Reactor—Dad was very involved with N Reactor, and he was very proud of the peacetime use of nuclear energy. Franklin: Were there many Manhattan Project employees that were still around when you moved here, Shirley, or when you grew up here, Andy? Shirley Miller: Any what? Andy Miller: He was wanting to know if people who were here in the 1945, when the Manhattan Project was done, if they were still here when you and Dad moved in the ‘50s and were still here when I was growing up. Shirley Miller: I think so. Andy Miller: Yeah. Dad talked very—Dad moved here in ’51 and he really admired a lot of the people, admired the brilliance of a lot of people for getting that accomplished. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Andy Miller: And he always talked about how smart and how hardworking they were. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Franklin: Did you know any African American Manhattan Project workers? Andy Miller: You know, my—I don’t think my dad made a distinction on that in his telling. I do know that Dad was friends with a lot of people working, because I know that—as I became an adult and came back to the Tri-Cities after law school, many, many times when I was out doorbelling or meeting people, I ran into an African American who would say, are you Norm Miller’s son? And they’d say, well, you know, Norm Miller was one management guy who made me feel comfortable. So Dad had a relationships like that. I don’t know if they were here during the Manhattan Project or not, but I know that Dad had made a lot of friends at Hanford. Shirley Miller: Yeah. Franklin: That’s great. Shirley Miller: I can’t remember. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Shirley Miller: Hmm? Andy Miller: What would you like people to know, like, your grandchildren? What would you like them to know, what it was like to live in Richland in the ‘50s and during the Cold War and Dad working at Hanford? Shirley Miller: Well, I hope not much different than someone living in Seattle. But I would like them to know that, but I mean—wouldn’t you say so? Andy Miller: Yeah, I want to say, I certainly think we need to debate what happened at Hanford and nothing should be immune to that, but I’m actually, I’m proud of the work that my father’s generation did-- Shirley Miller: I am, too. Andy Miller: --at Hanford. Especially given the realities and that the main decisions were made by the leaders. And that Hanford is a viable institution going. There were certainly many unique aspects. None of us who were going to school in Richland at the time, none of us had grandparents living around. Mom and Dad—Mom has talked about the social life being different. Everybody in Richland at that time tended to be young, professional couples. And that’s why they had so many bridge clubs and stock market clubs and— Shirley Miller: Yeah, that’s right. Andy Miller: A lot of social activities. Franklin: What is a stock market club? Shirley Miller: A stock market club? Franklin: Yeah. Shirley Miller: Well, you basically get the group together and decide to watch stocks to buy. And if they make money or not. And someone makes better choices than others, and they say, oh, good, Mister. Andy Miller: There were no extended families, so like Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners were always not with family, but they were with couple friends that Mom and Dad had. That was our traditions. And that was one thing, I think, that was different than most people’s experience growing up. Because everybody was thrown into this new city together and they had to make everybody together. Shirley Miller: Yeah, and we had many friends. Andy Miller: You did. And that’s one reason you got involved in the civil rights movement, is you said you also saw some of the African Americans that were neighbors and that Dad worked with that you thought were treated unfairly. Shirley Miller: Yeah, right. Franklin: How so? What would he say about their treatment at work? What sparked that? Andy Miller: Oh, I think the obvious one was the housing that we already talked about, that was a big issue. And that a lot of businesses in the Tri-Cities would not hire— Shirley Miller: Not hiring people is one of the things. Andy Miller: And then there were still social issues. I think that there were certain unfortunate incidents that happened at schools with African American children. Shirley Miller: Yes, definitely. Definitely. Andy Miller: You would hear about that. Franklin: What kinds of incidents at school? Mostly in Pasco or anything in Richland? Andy Miller: Oh, I think in Richland. Shirley Miller: In Richland, too. Andy Miller: The use of the N-word, the taunting, things like that. Shirley Miller: Mm-hmm. Andy Miller: And Mom and Dad, I mean, they didn’t put pressure on the kids, but they certainly wanted us to be on the lookout for anything that happened. My younger brother got in a fight after one of his friends was called the N-word, and he got in trouble for getting into the fight. The kid who used the N-word did not get in trouble. So there were issues like that, but I think those were common to our entire country, not just to the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Right, right. I guess, though, it’s important for people to know that that is a country-wide issue; it wasn’t a Southern issue. Andy Miller: Right. Franklin: It was very much an issue in the North and in the West. My last question is kind of a round-up question. Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Andy Miller: Is there anything else, Mom, you can think of with having African Americans move here and largely being forced to live in east Pasco? Anything else we haven’t talked about in the interview so far? Shirley Miller: Other than I think we were made more aware of it than the people who lived back in Pratt, Kansas. Franklin: How so? Shirley Miller: Huh? Franklin: How so? How was it compared to here to Kansas? What was different? Shirley Miller: I don’t know, I mean, I’m— Andy Miller: Well, in the North, you certainly had a segregated town of east Pasco, or at least part of it. Shirley Miller: Yes, uh-huh. Andy Miller: And that wasn’t the experience of a lot of other people who came here from the North. Is that right? Shirley Miller. Uh-huh. Yeah, that’s— Franklin: Were there any African Americans that lived in Pratt? I don’t know much about the size— Shirley Miller: Segregated. Franklin: Oh, it was—Pratt was segregated? Andy Miller: But not many very families lived there. Shirley Miller: And not many families. Andy Miller: It was a small farm town. Shirley Miller: But they had a little different school—I mean-- Andy Miller: A swimming pool. Shirley Miller: A swimming pool? They didn’t use the same swimming pool as we did. Andy Miller: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did it surprise you to find segregation in Washington State? Shirley Miller: Yeah, uh-huh. Richland didn’t have segregated swimming pools. We all used the same swimming pool. Franklin: Right. But Pasco was kind of de facto segregated, just by where people could live and what jobs they could have and when they could go to Kennewick. Oh, we didn’t ask you about that. The sign that was on the bridge, do you recall the sign that was on the bridge, the old green bridge leading into Kennewick? Shirley Miller: No, unh-uh. Franklin: To Pasco. Andy Miller: We’ve never seen a sign, and over the years we’ve heard the debate whether or not there was a real sign or whether that was something said—certainly, just based on the experience helping the Slaughters, there was no one living in Kennewick and there was certainly attitudes, but I’ve just heard different debates whether or not there was an actual ordinance in place, a real sign, or just something—that’s a research project. Franklin: Me, too. No, we’ve spent a lot of time trying to track it down, whether it’s—certainly, yes, certainly there was that attitude. The attitude was very plain, but whether there was a physical manifestation of it remains to be seen. Yeah, we’ve still—we were hoping to uncover that in this, and I don’t know if we’re any closer. But we’ve documented the attitude, so that gives us something. Well, if there’s nothing else, I just want to thank both of you, Andy and Shirley. I want to thank you for coming out and sharing your history with us. You know, your history as an ally and everything, so thank you very much. Andy Miller: Well, thank you! Franklin: I appreciate it. Shirley Miller: Thank you! Franklin: Okay, awesome. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Andy and Shirley Miller Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Civil rights Civil rights movements Discrimination Segregation Human rights Description An account of the resource Shirley Miller moved to Richland, Washington in 1951 and was involved in local civil rights movements. Andy Miller was born in Richland, Washington in 1953. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/26/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F13896fdc609391071af3b38d7afdf2d1.JPG e934fe7b23d724dd0466d8683b1a21b5 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F443c48154ed935540525182cdba1b8ce.mp4 aa4d01011e7e59e9b95562002c38f636 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bryan and Rhonda Rambo Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Bryan and Rhonda Rambo on March 23rd, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Bryan and Rhonda about their experiences living in the Tri-Cities and/or working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, could you state and spell your full name for us, starting with Bryan? Bryan Rambo: Yes. Bryan, B-R-Y-A-N. Middle initial, Keith, K-E-I-T-H. Last name, Rambo, R-A-M-B-O. Franklin: Okay. Rhonda Rambo: My name is Rhonda Rambo. Rhonda, R-H-O-N-D-A. Middle initial, M, and last name, Rambo, R-A-M-B-O. Franklin: Thank you. So, where did your—your parents moved here, right, to come to work at Hanford? Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Franklin: Your father did. Rhonda Rambo: Our father did. Franklin: Where did your father move from? Rhonda Rambo: Bivins, Texas. Franklin: Bivins, Texas. Bryan Rambo: Yup. Thank you. You remembered Bivins, Texas. Franklin: Do you know where that is? Rhonda Rambo: It’s between Arkansas and Kansas—Arkansas/Texarkana border. Franklin: Okay. Bryan Rambo: Northeast Texas. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: East Texas, gotcha. And when did he come to Hanford? Rhonda Rambo: I’m not sure when they came to Hanford, but my mom moved here first, and she stayed actually in Hermiston with a cousin and that was back in 1954. And then my dad was in the service. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, the Korean War at the time—well, he was coming back. Rhonda Rambo: Coming back. And so once he came back, she was already moved—I believe she was already here in Pasco, east Pasco, and he came after. Franklin: So your parents were married before they— Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Franklin: And when did they get married? Rhonda Rambo: Ooh. Bryan Rambo: That’s a good one. Rhonda Rambo: I’m not sure. Bryan Rambo: I’m not— Rhonda Rambo: Maybe in ’48? I wanna think 1948. Franklin: Okay. I don’t know. It’s probably not super important. Rhonda Rambo: Because I can’t remember what Artie— Bryan Rambo: Yeah, exactly, it would be either ’48 or ’47. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, because whatever Artie’s birthday year— Bryan Rambo: Artie’s ‘52. 1952. Rhonda Rambo: So, I imagine it’d be—well, yeah, then it’d mean about ’51. Because she was kind of pregnant, I think, at the time. Franklin: Ah. That’s not uncommon. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, you said your mom came first; she came to Hermiston. Did she have family in Hermiston? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, there was a cousin. Franklin: And do you know why they were in Hermiston? Rhonda Rambo: I’m not sure. I think that cousin actually moved further in. But that’s where, that was the first place she stayed. Franklin: Okay. What do you know about their lives before they came to the Tri-Cities? Rhonda Rambo: My grandfather was a sharecropper with cotton, so they worked the land. He had his own farm. Bryan Rambo: He also did truck farming, too. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. And my dad lived with his aunt. And I guess they were kind of—they had a little bit more money, I suppose, and so my dad didn’t have to work as hard. But my mom—they kind of went to school together and they had met up. After that, they had all of us kids. Franklin: Were you two born here in the Tri-Cities? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Our Lady of Lourdes, I was. Franklin: Lady of Lourdes. Bryan Rambo: Only one of us was—our oldest brother was born in Texas. Everybody else was born up in Washington State. Franklin: Okay. What do you know about their initial experience of coming to the Tri-Cities and finding a place to live? Rhonda Rambo: All I remember my mom talking about is the house on east Pasco, saying how bad the sandstorms would be. When the front door—screen door would be just blocked with sand and tumbleweeds, basically. That’s what I remember her talking about, living on the east side of town in that home that she stayed in. It was an apartment complex she stayed in. Bryan Rambo: Right around A Street, what is now A Street. Very dirty and dusty over there. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, that’s why she just kept saying how dusty it was, and dirty. Coming from Texas with the red clay and more—their land was more forestry, so it wasn’t—for her to come here and see all this dust and dirt and back there it’s more trees and red clay. I think it was a big change for her. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Great. Let’s see here. Do you know what prompted your mom and then your dad to move up here from Texas? Rhonda Rambo: The relatives. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: Other families from different counties in Texas moved up here and the word got out, and I think they just started migrating— Bryan Rambo: Yeah, the opportunities. Rhonda Rambo: --up here. Franklin: Right, because that was part of a pretty large migration of blacks from east Texas that came, I believe, initially in the Manhattan Project. So your parents were part of that word-of-mouth migration during and after World War II. Okay. So you kind of described the first place your mom stayed after she arrived. When did your family stay together—do you remember the first house that you guys were in, or your parents were in? Rhonda Rambo: The house that I have now, the family home, is on Clark Street. And prior to that, they lived in Navy Homes. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, we called it the Navy Homes over there, off of 10th and Court. Rhonda Rambo: Court, yeah. That’s where most the families started out, in those homes. And eventually my dad saved up enough money to purchase the home that we’re in now. Franklin: And where—is that home in east Pasco, or in— Rhonda Rambo: West. Franklin: West Pasco. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: And what was the address? Bryan Rambo: No, no, no, you mean the Navy Homes and stuff? Franklin: Oh, yeah, so I was—well, both, actually. Bryan Rambo: Oh, Navy Homes is in more downtown but it’s in the northeast part of Pasco. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: But it’s downtown—still considered downtown. Franklin: Yeah, I’m trying to imagine—like, I’m trying to look at a map of Pasco in my head. Rhonda Rambo: If you know where the Chinese Garden is? It’s straight across the street. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. Rhonda Rambo: And all those little houses there. That’s Navy Homes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bryan Rambo: They actually rebuilt those. They’re still there. They remodeled them and they built them like they are today. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. They’re considered low income, I guess, too. And they were established I guess back then for the Navy families that might have been here at the time, too. After that, I think, just general families were just moving in there. Franklin: How long did your parents stay in the Navy Homes? Rhonda Rambo: It must’ve been until ’62. Because Tim-- Bryan Rambo: Because Tim was still—me, Sean was still there, I was still there, Dwayne and Artie. So we—it was about ’60— Rhonda Rambo: ’61 or ’62, because after that I was at the house. I was born in the house in ’65, so. Bryan Rambo: And I want to make a note, too, that before my father even got out to the Area when he’d come back, he was working for the railroads, too. Burlington Northern at the time—Great Northern. He was there. He was a brakeman there for a short time before he got out to the Area. Franklin: So he must have traveled around quite a bit working for the railroad? Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm. Well, he stayed local mostly because he was like a—they had the control switch men and all that. He wasn’t working, going up far, he was just doing the locking or—what do they call it? Switchmen. That’s what he was doing, basically. So he stayed close to town a lot. Franklin: Right, right. Makes sense. What was the hardest—did your parents ever talk about adjusting to life here in the Tri-Cities and what maybe was a struggle for them coming from east Texas to here, and maybe what was the benefits of coming? Rhonda Rambo: I don’t remember my mom ever saying it was a struggle. But I think she liked it. Because after she—she took us all one time down to Texas for a family trip. After I seen where she grew up, I kind of understood, maybe, why she chose to come up here and stay and start over as a family. Franklin: What was different about it down there? Rhonda Rambo: It was really—it’s rural. All rural. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: I mean, you’re way out of town from anyone. When it’s dark, it’s dark. It’s pitch. You can’t see nothing. I mean, she warned us. She made me scared to go because she kept telling us how bad the snakes, the ticks, when you go out to the outhouse, you got to look in there and make sure there ain’t no critter in there. So I kind of had a fear of going. But, I mean, it was fun, but I understood why. And even after I went down again after I was older, I kept—I think you and me were together—and I kept saying, man, I could not live here. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: There’s no way. With the humidity, it being hot and just living like that. I wouldn’t imagine trying to live like that, but, you know, some people—what you adapt to when you’re growing up, you adapt to. Franklin: Right, yeah, that’s true. Let’s see here. So, tell me about your father’s work—when did he start working at Hanford and what did he do? Bryan Rambo: Well, as I say, when he got here, he did several jobs, but I knew he worked for the Burlington Northern. Then he got a job up in the Hanford Area and that was around 1950—actually probably the year I was born, ’58, ’59, he got there. Franklin: Okay. Bryan Rambo: Started working there. Franklin: And what was his job out at Hanford? Bryan Rambo: Patrol. Franklin: Oh, Hanford Patrol. Bryan Rambo: He was a patrolman. Franklin: Okay. That must’ve been—were there any other—do you know if there were any other African American patrolmen at the time? Bryan Rambo: I had—fortunately, I’ve had some documents that are local news about it, and I believe he was one of the first, if not the first black patrolman out there in the Hanford Area. Franklin: Yeah, I would think so, too, considering that employment was still somewhat unofficially restricted to—most blacks worked outside jobs—outside the Area or more menial, more service-type-oriented jobs. Did he talk about his work as a patrolman at all? Rhonda Rambo: I don’t remember that. Bryan Rambo: Well, we remember—well, basically all we remember, he had a blue uniform and his hat was a barracks hat. And he’d come in—he’d work—with the stripe. It looked like Richland PD back in the day, but—there was like a light blue uniform, he’d come in, his gear, his gun and stuff. Well, he wouldn’t carry his gun all the time. I didn’t see. He probably had it but he hid it. Rhonda Rambo: It was in the holster. Bryan Rambo: But he always had the holster. It was interesting. He would come in, he would go talk to us to make sure we did our chores, see how we were doing. And apparently get good news from Mom that we hadn’t gotten in trouble or anything because he was going to get us later of course! But he was a hard worker. He’d come in—he didn’t talk much about it. But he did take us out there. He took me out there. Franklin: Oh, really? Bryan Rambo: Yes! Rhonda Rambo: I don’t remember going. Franklin: And when did this— Bryan Rambo: You were really young then. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, I don’t remember. Bryan Rambo: It was interesting, because he brought us through what is now the Prosser Barricade. It’s off of 240 and I think it’s highway, what is that, Highway 4 now? But it’s not the Wye Barricade area, if you’re kind of situated with the 400 Area and all that. It’s like coming into 400 Area is closer. But anyway it comes off of Highway 240 and—gosh, I can’t remember—I think it’s Highway 4. But anyway, there used to be a barricade there and you can’t see nothing there but a parking lot there. But we actually drove in there, we went in, and he started showing us the Area. We didn’t go into the facilities, per se. We went through there, then we went through and drove through what is now the 100 Area. He took us way out there. He was just showing us the scenery, the N Reactor, the 100 Areas. He didn’t show us East and West too much at the time. And 300 Area, he showed us 300 Area and he kind of told us where he worked at, at the time. At the time, he told me, if I remember right, I think he was at 300 Area then. But he’s worked all the areas he said. But I remember 300 Area, he showed us a lot about 300 Area. Franklin: Right, yeah. I think they—most patrolmen kind of got stationed all over the place. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. But we stayed in the vehicle, couldn’t get out. Franklin: Of course. Bryan: Rambo: We just drove around. But, no, I remember that. It was a great experience for me, because I didn’t—you know, I wanted to see where he worked out, what he do. And he just drove us around. And it’s so big, at the time. It was interesting. Franklin: Did your father ever talk about any challenges with his work at Hanford? Maybe ever any racial conflicts or things with supervisors or fellow employees or anything like that? Rhonda Rambo: No, my dad was a pretty quiet man. I mean, I don’t remember ever hearing him—I still don’t remember him even raising his voice. All I remember him is coming home, my mom fussing, and then he’d go out to the garage, and that was his place to kind of wind down, tangle with stuff. I don’t remember—I don’t even remember getting a whupping by him, but they said I did. Bryan Rambo: You did. [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: But I don’t remember. I remember him taking me and trying to show me how to drive a truck. You know, it was an old, what? That old Chevy truck he had, and the stick was up here. And I remember him trying to push the clutch and he’d tell me to go down with the gear. That’s what I remember. I don’t remember—I do kind of remember the uniform thing, but I don’t remember too much of him complaining about work. Like you said, he would come in, he’d have dinner with us kids and, you know. I just remember him being a mellow, quiet man. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm, I agree. Rhonda Rambo: He enjoyed fishing when he had time off. He also had another business. He worked for Sandvik Metals doing their land. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, he had a landscaping business. Franklin: Oh, okay. Oh, wow. Bryan Rambo: And myself and my other brother, we’d go with him and we’d mole and cut and weed-eat and all that stuff. For, like, you said, Sandvik’s. It was several homes in Richland and Kennewick we’d go to, and Pasco. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, he did that. Franklin: And you guys grew up in Pasco and lived in Pasco your whole lives? Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Pasco High. Stevens Middle School, we went to. Franklin: Okay. How long did your father work out at Hanford for? Bryan Rambo: Exactly ten years. Franklin: Exactly ten years. And what— Bryan Rambo: So it was ’58 through 1968. Franklin: Okay, and why did he leave Hanford? Rhonda Rambo: Got sick. Bryan Rambo: At the time, he was a—well, he smoked a lot, too. He quit smoking, but he had issues with emphysema and stuff. But he wanted to get in town—my mother, at the time, wanted him in town, and Garrett Freight Lines was opening a local delivery truck service in town. And he just decided to go ahead and work with them and stay in town and stop the long drive out to the Area. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that is a long drive out there from Pasco. I imagine, especially with the roads in the ‘60s. Okay. So let’s hear kind of about your guys’ experiences with growing up. So we talked about the kind of housing you guys lived in. Did—so I know east Pasco was kind of the hub of the African American community, but you guys lived in west Pasco. Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Franklin: So you would’ve went to—did you—I imagine you would’ve went to schools that were predominantly white— Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: As opposed to schools in east Pasco, which would’ve been predominantly African American at the time. Rhonda Rambo: And at the time, there was only one school in east Pasco. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, Whittier. Rhonda Rambo: Which was Whittier. Franklin: Whittier, right. Rhonda Rambo: And our older brother and possibly— Bryan Rambo: Yep, Artie, he was the only one. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, Artie was the only one that went there. All the rest of us went to Pasco High. Franklin: Pasco High, right. How large was the African American community in west Pasco where you lived? Rhonda Rambo: Maybe, I can think of— Bryan Rambo: Oh, man, everybody was basically on the east side at the time. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Well, the Robinsons lived up the street. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: There was maybe one family I could think of that was close to us. Bryan Rambo: Yeah it was the Robinsons and that was it. We were one of the first families that went even on the west side of Pasco. For a long time. Rhonda Rambo: For a long time. Bryan Rambo: It was not many blacks would even be on the west side of Pasco, on this side of the—you know, of the town. Franklin: Did you face any challenges being one of the—outside of what had been formally and informally—you know, east Pasco’s formally and informally placed as where African Americans would live. And that line was pretty drawn sharp with the railroad there. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Our school, I mean, I remember junior high, not so much elementary, but junior high, I remember one time some girls were saying, well, why are you sitting with the white girls? And I’m like, you mean, my neighbors and my friends? Because they couldn’t even—they couldn’t see that me being black, sitting over here, but being growing up in a majority-white neighborhood, that’s who I grew up with. So I felt comfortable, but I felt a little bit like discriminated against, because I felt pressured into, like, oh, I got to go start socializing with these girls. So that was my first reaction, I guess. Someone showing some kind of discrimination. Bryan Rambo: Now, in addition with what she said, that’s when we moved—we did move from Navy Homes in to Clark Street. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: Which was further west at the time. And that was considered growing, getting better and everything, as Pasco. And like I said, like she said, with just the Robinsons, I guess, and us, and not many minority or blacks were on that side of town. Franklin: Right. How big is your family? Rhonda Rambo: Seven of us. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Seven--? Rhonda Rambo: Seven children. Franklin: Seven children, okay. And where are you guys age-wise on the--? Rhonda Rambo: I’m now—I was the only girl out of seven—out of six boys. So I’m now the baby. Three out of the seven—six boys—are deceased. So he would be—I would’ve been second-to-the-youngest, first the baby brother, and then he would be third in line from the two older brothers. Franklin: Okay, cool. Did you guys attend church? Rhonda Rambo: Oh, yeah. Bryan Rambo: Yes. Franklin: And what church did your family attend? Rhonda Rambo: Trinity Church of God. Franklin: And where was that located? Rhonda Rambo: On the west side of town. [LAUGHTER] Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: On the— Bryan Rambo: Well, yes. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, it was on the west side. Bryan Rambo: Well, it was originally on the east side, though. Rhonda Rambo: No. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, yeah. Rhonda Rambo: Was it? I don’t remember. Bryan Rambo: We went to church on Ainsworth—it was off of—not Ainsworth, but off of A Street—it’s 1st Street. Not 1st Street. What’s the name of that street that there’s only partially of it left on east side, but the church was there. And that’s when we had—it was before Elder Knowles—Elder James. Rhonda Rambo: Oh, I don’t remember him. Bryan Rambo: See? Rhonda Rambo: [LAUGHTER] I was too young, probably. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: I only remember the church on Shoshone. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, you were young. But it was—but then Elder Knowles taken over and that’s when you remember, and then we moved—the church moved from the east side to where it is now on Shoshone. Rhonda Rambo: Shoshone. 4th and Shoshone. Bryan Rambo: Yes. And there were— Rhonda Rambo: 5th and Shoshone. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, 5th and Shoshone, exactly. Rhonda Rambo: 5th and Shoshone. Franklin: So did its congregation follow when it moved or was it more of a mixed congregation? Rhonda Rambo: It was people from west—east and west—well, east Pasco that came there. Which was kind of nice, because those members, I went to school with, so it was kind of like I still got to see people I knew and went to school with but lived in east Pasco. But yeah there was quite a few members. The majority of the members were from east Pasco. We were the ones I think thatweren’t. From the west, on the west side. Franklin: What role did the church play in the community? Rhonda Rambo: A big part of our family. Our mom, she had us in church three, four times a week. Bryan Rambo: At least three times a week. Rhonda Rambo: I mean, Sunday was twice a day. We went morning service, to Sunday school, church, and then we came back in the evening. Even when we were young and she knew we had to get home with the younger ones, she had the older ones walk us home. So a big group of—here’s seven kids walking down the street. You know, back then, we—today, that’d be a gang. Bryan Rambo: [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: But, yeah, she sent us home so we can get home and get to bed while she stayed and attended church. Our dad was sick the majority, most of the time. I remember her dragging him to church on Sunday because of football, that was his thing. I don’t want to go, I want to watch the game. But every once in a while, he’d dress up and he’d go, she’d get him to go. But once he started getting sick, he couldn’t go. But she still got up and got us dressed and off we went. Franklin: What was your father’s illness? Rhonda Rambo: Cancer. Lung cancer. Yeah. Bryan Rambo: And emphysema. Well, emphysema plus the—was part of it. Franklin: You said he was a pretty heavy smoker? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. I don’t remember him smoking, but my mom—both my parents did smoke. But my mom, I don’t remember her smoking, either. So she did quit at some time, and my dad. Bryan Rambo: And they had some issues in 300 Area, too, that happened. Particles that got in there, too. So he had issues there. So he had gotten sick. It was a combination of both. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. And when did your father pass away? Bryan Rambo: 19—I remember I was in— Rhonda Rambo: ’78. Bryan Rambo: Yup. Franklin: About ten years after he retired from Hanford. Bryan Rambo: Yes, mm-hmm. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, that people brought from the places they came from? Like east Texas? Rhonda Rambo: Oh, yeah. Well, of course. Bryan Rambo: It’s a lot. It’s so much. Rhonda Rambo: My mom’s a Southern cook and so am I. So one thing she traditionally kept us eating during, I don’t know, I guess in holidays, she taught me to make gumbo. And I still traditionally make it for Thanksgiving. Bryan Rambo: Every year, mm-hmm. Still do. Rhonda Rambo: I don’t know. We—my momma used to take us picking beans. There was a farm here in Pasco that I guess after they harvested, they would let the families go in and pick again to see anything. So my mom did a lot of canning. She would take us all out there. We picked beans if we could off the vines and bring them home. She canned a lot of it. So we had a lot of fresh cooking. And when she cooked, she’d cook a lot. But yeah, the Southern cooking of snap beans and potatoes and ham and— Bryan Rambo: Preserves. Rhonda Rambo: She had a garden in the yard there, so she’d grow greens and cabbage and tomatoes. She would take tomatoes and cucumbers and pour vinegar and salt and pepper on, and we’d eat slices of that. Fresh corn if it was—either she’d take us and pick it or she—she couldn’t probably grow enough of it. But anytime she could get it, she’d cook it. There was a local guy that would catch fish and bring it to her. Crappies and bluegills, by the buckets, and we’d have fish fry, you know, as soon as we cleaned them all up. Bryan Rambo: Alan. Alan was the guy that used to do that. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, so traditionally, yeah, she loved to cook and she instilled that in me. I feel like some of my cooking skills came from a young child going in the kitchen and helping her a lot in the kitchen, learning how to do a lot of it. And I thank her for that because it makes me a good woman today, I think. Franklin: Great. Bryan Rambo: And me, I continue to garden, like she said, we just—I still do. I give her the— Franklin: Kind of got bit by the bug? Bryan Rambo: I give her the greens so she can cook them. Franklin: Nice, nice. What about any—like community activities or events, like, celebrations that may have been more specific to the South? Was there anything like that that was brought? Rhonda Rambo: Well, I know, Juneteenth is really big here and in the South. That’s one of the things that they still today do here each year. That was one of the big things I remember as far as traditional things that were done. Easter is a big—I think played a lot here, still today, is the women would come out with the big hair, big hats. My mom was one of them. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. She loved to dress up for anniversary, church anniversaries. That was something big that they—she dressed us up. But I remember, Easter mainly, going and wearing gloves, Easter gloves, hats, little patent shoes, matching your little patent purse. Yeah. So I remember that was a big—and the bonnet of course. Bryan Rambo: Oh, yes. Franklin: That’s cool. Were there any opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Rhonda Rambo: I think work. Just work altogether. I mean, if you didn’t get out from where they lived, you were going to be a farmer. So I think coming here had bigger opportunities, money. The South is hard, back then. You couldn’t do too much down there and not be scrutinized about what you’re doing. So for my grandfather to be able to sharecrop and have some land to work it and not lose it to the white man that was down there was a lot. Bryan Rambo: True. Rhonda Rambo: So I can’t tell you the whole story, but there was a relative of ours that’s supposed to have shot a white man, and they smuggled him out, and he did live, he did survive. But his family—he had to leave his wife and children to start a whole new life away from there, because that person’s family after they left and they were questioned, where was this person, they were basically beaten, land taken from—part of their land was taken from them in order to try to get them to say what had happened. But they kept their mouths quiet. They did get him out, and he did have to start—and my mom actually saw that person. He had started a whole new life, new change of life, new lifestyle, new family. But it was kind of sad, he had to leave his wife and children just to start over, just to get out of the—leaving. But the family that was left there did get tortured because of it. So that’s one story that will always stick with me, because that’s kind of sad that you have to be smuggled out to survive. It’s almost like a slavery-type thing, where you have to run for your life and leave your family. Franklin: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: You know? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Sharecropping is—and that Jim Crow system is—too many uncomfortable parallels to slavery. Slavery by a different name. Did your parents ever talk much about the segregation that was in the South and any differences here in Washington? Bryan Rambo: Well, in my experience, we knew that certain parts—we’d go to like—we would walk around a lot when we were growing up. And we knew in the earlier ‘60s, we were told we could go—if we go to Kennewick and walk across the old blue bridge—the old bridge, now it’s gone—we could cross over there. You could go there and shop and do your thing and get done, but you can only—make sure you’re back before nightfall. Don’t be there after nightfall, we were always told that. Us older boys. Because we were worried about, you know, accidents can happen. She just said, just get back because things happen there. I’m not saying there was cross-burning and stuff, I didn’t see that, but there was a fear that could happen to us in Kennewick. So we made sure we did everything we did, we stayed in Pasco or stay outside of town, and not have those kind of problems. Rhonda Rambo: I think one thing I remember is going to school and everybody saying—you know like when we had basketball games against Richland or Kennewick, we always seemed to have the rep of we’re bad. You know, Pasco’s bad, they’re this bad element. And even with—I work in Richland, and even working with some of my coworkers and they say, where do you live? And I say, oh, Pasco. And they say, oh, I would never go to Pasco. And I’m like, good! Stay out. Because we ain’t missing nothing over there that you ain’t bringing us already. But it’s just that fear of hearing, Pasco’s bad. But you know, really, it’s not. I think it’s all in people’s—it may be, back in the day— Bryan Rambo: Mm-hm. Rhonda Rambo: I remember when the prostitutes were legally—not legally—but they walked downtown Pasco. I remember that. I remember the pimps. I remember hearing about the police pulling these people over. I remember hearing they said they put them in the cars and put them back out on the street just to keep doing what they’re doing. I remember after-hours night clubs that they can go to after-hours, on east Pasco. Where they can gamble, drink late at night. I remember all that. But it didn’t affect me because my mom kept us— Bryan Rambo: JD’s. [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. My mom kept us— Franklin: Sorry, what? What’s JD’s? Rhonda Rambo: JD’s was the old—you shut up before I say it now. Bryan Rambo: [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: Well, it was a grocery store, but I don’t think it was a night— Bryan Rambo: Well, there was some other stores around— Rhonda Rambo: Around there, yeah. Bryan Rambo: Some clubs were up there. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, there were some after-hour clubs that—they were bars but then they did after-hours stuff. But the prostitution, that went on for years. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. I mean, all cities have these issues. It’s funny when they pretend they don’t exist or they shove them to an area and stigmatize that area. That’s often—yeah, I’m not from around here but when I did move here a couple years ago, it’s one of the first things I heard about Pasco. Don’t go to east Pasco. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, don’t go. Franklin: Yeah, and no real reason but that’s the “bad” area of town. Oh, well, then you come to find out the history of east Pasco and you can see why it’s been stigmatized that way, and it’s not due to the residents; it’s more due to careless— Rhonda Rambo: Talk, yeah. Franklin: And prejudice. Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, so that’s what I remember, is being labeled as the “bad” town to live in. I mean, Pasco has a lot of good elements to it I still see today. And obviously the growth is one of them. So I still think that it’s a great place to raise your family as far as having your children grow up here. I love it. I go to—I have family, I go—my family’s from the Bay Area, so I go out there and I visit. But I don’t want to live there. I have family in Seattle, I go to visit, but I don’t want to live there. I’m always—this is what I call home. And, see, I probably will die here. I imagine. [LAUGHTER] But I mean, everybody has their own different views. But, like you said, there’s bad element everywhere. You can’t really get away from it; you learn to adjust and hope for the best. I just think that there’s good and bad in everybody. Franklin: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: And also one of the issues I remember that—it was bussing. It wasn’t bussing, because we were never bussed; my mother would take us to school or we walked to school. But I also was at Longfellow at the time, and all of the sudden they moved us out of Longfellow and they switched us to what is now Emerson, the Emerson School. They just moved us around, switched us around, and we were told it was kind of because of a bussing issue—not a bus issue, but they wanted to move minorities around. So things were changing, I guess, so they moved us around. They moved us out of Longfellow to Emerson and then started changing out then. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: So that was quite interesting, yeah. Franklin: The integration—you’re talking about the integration of schools. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, the integration, yeah. I remember that. Franklin: And where—sorry, I’m not super-familiar with these schools, so where was Longfellow? Bryan Rambo: It is now on— Rhonda Rambo: 10th? Bryan Rambo: 10th, it’s more in town. It’s on 10th also, 10th and— Rhonda Rambo: Clark. Bryan Rambo: No, actually, it’s 14th. That’s 14th, isn’t it? It’s 14th. It’s 14th. Rhonda Rambo: 14th and Clark. Franklin: And where is Emerson? Rhonda Rambo: Emerson is right on Sylvester. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay. Bryan Rambo: Well, now it’s not. No, it’s not on Sylvester anymore. It’s moved up, now. It’s—but at the time, she’s right, it was on Sylvester. Rhonda Rambo: It’s now the Boys and Girls Club of America, that’s where it is now, and then they moved it over towards the high school now. Emerson, that’s the new Emerson. Franklin: Were there any ways in which opportunities for your parents were limited because of segregation or racism? Bryan Rambo: I think, personally, I think the opportunities opened, like I say, when they got here, my sister was saying. It just, like I say, it was more work. My dad always had found work and he had, like I say, his own business. Rhonda Rambo: They both went to CBC for a little—my mom got an AA at CBC, and so she taught early childhood education. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm, Head Start. Rhonda Rambo: Head Start. I think there were other black women that my mom—the Tates—that one of them worked there with my mom. Bryan Rambo: Yes. Of course, Virgie Robinson. The school’s named after her now. We were real close to her, real close to her. Franklin: Yeah, one of our early interviews for the project was Richie, Richie Robinson, I talked with him. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, Richie’s great, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, he is. That was a really wonderful interview. And his mom, I wish I could have met her. She was a really— Bryan Rambo: Oh, she was great. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: She was a really amazing lady. Bryan Rambo: Yes, she was. Franklin: What about for yourselves? Did you feel in any ways, growing up in Pasco, that—or when you were first starting out in adulthood, felt that your opportunities were limited in any way because of de facto segregation or racism? Rhonda Rambo: I don’t think so. Bryan Rambo: I feel that my parents at the time, they kind of were in the tougher fringes of the—you know, segregation and all. Because they came out of Jim Crow era. And then things were changing in the ‘60s and things were getting a little bit better. I think the opportunities for me opened up. For me, and my sister. We found work, there’s no problem. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: Even in school, I felt had all the opportunities I wanted to go forward from middle school and high school. Went to Stevens, both went to Stevens, and it was good there. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: High school. Franklin: And could you describe any interactions that you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities that stand out to you, if any? Bryan Rambo: My father, like we say, he was kind of tight-lipped a little bit about the friends. But he had a gentleman named Mr. Kimbrough. Now, he’s also a fellow patrolman. He’d hang out with him, and he would go out—his house was out further out at right now what would be the farm areas. Its no longer a farm area, now it’s West Pasco, further out. I think he was on 50th or 40—I think Road 53, I think, or 54. But anyway at that time, he’d go out there and he would hang out—I remember he used to drive out there with him. He would help him do his taxes, he would help him do his work in his house. They were really good friends, and they had good rec. He was really good. And they took care of each other. You know, he was a real good friend of my dad’s. Rhonda Rambo: We had good neighbors. We had good friends around our neighborhood. Franklin: Who were some of the people that influenced you as children? Bryan Rambo: Locally, or--? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. And nationally? Rhonda Rambo: Influenced me? I want to say—I don’t know, I think just my upbringing. The way my mother taught us. After our dad passed, my mom really had to step up. I mean, she still had five? Bryan Rambo: Yup. Rhonda Rambo: Five kids in the house to raise. So she immediately—she worked nights, I remember getting up and making her coffee and packing her lunch. As she got older and got sicker herself, she started showing me how to pay bills. So I was paying bills probably at 15, 16 years old, writing checks for her. I felt I might’ve grew up a little faster, but at the same time, she was teaching me what I needed to know at the same time. But just watching her as a woman, growing up and being so strong and independent, it made me who I am today. I think I’m a strong person because of that. So I think she’s my biggest role model. Because of her faith in God, I think that helped shield us from a lot. Because she always taught us, when we came in from school, we prayed. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm, we did a lot of praying. Rhonda Rambo: She taught us to pray, if we were in class and we were having issues with maybe our teacher or a fellow classmate, she would say, just—you don’t have to shut your eyes, she said, just say a little prayer. And today, I think she’s kept us out of a lot. She used to foresee things. I kid you not, she would tell us, I saw this in a dream: don’t go over here. One of our brothers didn’t listen. And we had a local pub across the street from our home where we grow up right there on Clark Street. It was First Edition. And she told my brother, I dreamed that you’re going to get injured in that pub; you need to stay out of there. And he went over there and they had a pinball machine. I guess there was someone in there playing on it longer than he wanted, and he went up to the guy and said, hey, I want my turn. This guy punched my brother one time, broke his jaw, and sent him straight to the hospital. My mom said, I told you! Bryan Rambo: Yeah, I remember that! Rhonda Rambo: And stay out of that bar because this was going to happen. There was a couple of dreams that she had about my older brother, and she told him, I had a bad dream. Stay out of here, don’t go over here. My brother didn’t listen. But you know, none of us have done time to where we’re in prison. But she instilled us the right and the wrong. And I think that is what is slacking in a lot of families today. She gave us rules and if we broke them rules, we got the punishment. And my mom didn’t joke. Bryan Rambo: No, she did not. Rhonda Rambo: If my dad came home, and she told, you know your dad is going to whup you, she really meant that, and she meant she going to do it, too. And so we had that fear in us. And so I tried to instill that same thing in my children. Y’all know right and wrong. If you go out there and you did something wrong, don’t expect me to come and get you out of it, if you make that mistake. So I think that that is what people need in this world today, is a little bit of more, put down your foot, let’s just say, and just stick to your grounds. Franklin: Did your mom or dad ever give you any advice or anything on maybe how to handle a delicate situation that may be caused because of someone else’s bigotry or perception of you? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, she did. She said, they’re only words. Try to walk away from—she always taught us to walk away from a fight unless they put they hands on us. I mean, then you have to—if you have to defend yourself. But she’d always try to teach us it’s only words and they’re not going to kill you, and to try to walk away. You know, today, I’ve never really been—I don’t remember being called out of my name. But maybe one time. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Bryan Rambo: One time for me at least that I know. Rhonda Rambo: Usually I will address it if it is a problem. I usually just go ahead and speak my mind, too. And then—but I’ve never had to physically fight or anything. Outside my brothers. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: Right, that’s just— Bryan Rambo: Yeah, we protect our brothers and sisters. Yeah, we did that. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, but they tried to teach us to love, not to fight. Franklin: Right. So, Bryan, you worked out at Hanford, right? Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm, yes. Franklin: And how long did you work out at Hanford for? Bryan Rambo: Oh, okay. Franklin: A long time? Bryan Rambo: You want to put a—phew. Since ’86, so— Franklin: Do you still work out there? Bryan Rambo: No, I retired in—what was it? 2014. ’14, yeah. No, ’13. ’13, excuse me. Franklin: So 27 years. Bryan Rambo: Yes. Franklin: And what did you do out there? Bryan Rambo: Like my dad, like my father, like son, I joined—went on patrol. Franklin: Went on patrol. Bryan Rambo: Hanford Patrol. Franklin: And how had patrol changed from your father’s day to when you started? Bryan Rambo: Well, it was interesting because I—when I got out there, there was people that still—even though he was gone, let’s say, he’s been gone more than, at that time— Rhonda Rambo: 20 years. Bryan Rambo: When I started, because that was ’86, so that’s been a span of— Franklin: Almost 20 years. Bryan Rambo: 15, 20 years. Rhonda Rambo: Almost 20 years. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, some people that were still there remembered my father. And again, like my sister said, they had real respect for my dad, and they—I had to, of course, have previous experience in the service—Marine Corps, and they wanted me. But they knew my dad, and actually, the interviewer knew my dad and spoke very good words about him and everything. And it just went from there. But I tried to bring up a photo showing how my father was out there. He was one of the few that watched the first moon rocks that were brought in 1968 from the moonwalk. Franklin: Oh, cool. Bryan Rambo: It was at the Federal Building, and he was—it shows him guarding it, standing up, guarding it. And then there’s a little girl looking at it, and he’s looking down kind of watching everything. It was in the Federal Building at the Science Center then. It was very cool. I was very proud of that. I think PNL still has records of those photos—they’ve got photos of it. But that’s the reason why, again, because they saw Rambo, a lot of those photos because in our academy they had those pictures. They had a picture of my dad still in there. Franklin: In where? Bryan Rambo: In our academy. We had an academy out there at the time, in the East Area. Not East Area, now it’s 300 Area, toward 300 Area. But at the time, they had some pictures in the East Area where I first started at, and they had pictures of patrolmen through the ages of the years, and they had my father’s picture there. It was great, you know, seeing that. So it was great. It was great there. Real professional. Professional work. A lot of years, a lot of good people. Had some issues in those days, but— Franklin: Like what? Bryan Rambo: It wasn’t much—like not much racial issues. But you know a little here and there, little sticklers. Like we said, my sister was saying, my mother and father gave us—look over at the wind, just look over at—as long as it’s not interfering with my job, my work and my job, keep going. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: And that’s why I did 20-some years doing that. And overall it’s been good. Franklin: What on-the-job training did you receive, if any? Bryan Rambo: Ooh, I started off there as what would be called the SRT or like SWAT, kind of a fast tactical team there at the time. Different than what my father was, which was like just regular security police officer. We were like a [UNKNOWN], they called it. But anyway we would do pretty much everything what my father would do, except if there was an emergency, we would go there for emergencies. Anything, situations, we’ll be ready to go, out at the Hanford Area, whatever it may be. And in the town, also, so, the Federal Building. So it was pretty interesting. Franklin: Did you acquire any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Bryan Rambo: Oh, a lot. Rhonda Rambo: Patience. Bryan Rambo: Patience, yes. [LAUGHTER] Bryan Rambo: A lot of patience. You’ve got to just—being an officer, whether you’re in the Area or you’re a police officer, you’ve got to have the patience, like you said. You got to have—of course have all the necessary training from law enforcement to do my job. Today, I would use those opportunities still in my head—it’s still a race around my head to do it—what to do and what not to do. They help me in life. Plus, like we said, we went to school. I also did—prior to going into patrol, I did four years of college out of University of Hawai’i, went to University of Hawai’i and got a degree there. Franklin: Oh, on—Manoa? Bryan Rambo: Yes, yes, Manoa Campus. Franklin: Oh, I went to University of Hawai’i in Hilo. Bryan Rambo: All right! Good job. [LAUGHTER] Bryan Rambo: Hilo, right, that’s great. Excellent. The Big Island? Oh, my goodness. Franklin: Yeah, the Big Island. Bryan Rambo: It’s great. Franklin: Yeah, I loved it. What made you—this is a little off-topic—but what made you want to go to Hawai’i? Bryan Rambo: Again, when I was in—I went into the Marine Corps right after high school in ’77—I went and I did my training and then after that, my first duty station was Pearl Harbor. So I got to see Pearl Harbor, did my duties there, and at the time I was taking a few classes at the University on my off time and everything. So when I finished my first initial four years with the Marine Corps, I decided, oh, well, I’ll just go back and finish up. So I went back to Manoa and started off there and finished up. Franklin: And what was your degree in? Bryan Rambo: Broadcast communications. Franklin: Broadcast communications. And, Rhonda, did you go to college as well? Rhonda Rambo: I only did a little bit for early childhood education. Because I was kind of working at a daycare where they wanted me to have a little extra training on it. But, no, I didn’t go any more than I had to. [LAUGHTER] Per se. Franklin: It’s not always for everyone. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Hold on, I just want to write that down. So, Bryan, where did you—could you describe a typical workday as a Hanford Patrol officer when you were out there? Bryan Rambo: I can’t tell you everything. But I can tell you some outlooks. Like I say, we get there, get our lineup, we get the time—what happened the night before or what’s going on that happened that day, the activities. We’d get our reports, and we’d be sent out to our various locations, whether it be, let’s say, up close in East or West Area or we’d be sent way down south to 300 or way north to 200-East or 100-N Areas. So we’d roll, we’d do our various security checks, and just traffic control, those things. Franklin: And so that really brought you all over the Site, then. Bryan Rambo: Yes. Franklin: Like your father, you would’ve gotten to know the whole Site pretty well. Bryan Rambo: Yes, I got to know the whole Site. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors and management? Bryan Rambo: Pretty good. I had a good—tons of good coworkers. I’m still having fun with them now. Some of them are still out in the Area today. I still have time with them. In fact, two years ago—well, now it was a year and a half I guess—we went to white water rafting on the Solomon River—Salmon River down in Oregon. Franklin: Oh, cool. Bryan Rambo: It’s fun, you know, we do a lot of good things. Franklin: So you have pretty close relationships, communication, with a lot of them. Bryan Rambo: Oh, yes. Sure do. Rhonda Rambo: I still—well, for my job, there’s one of the inspectors that come through, still, every time he sees me, your brother. Your brother this, your brother that. I’m like, okay, I get it, he’s a good guy. So he was like, I do still hear, people still that do know him say— Franklin: And, Rhonda, where do you work? Rhonda Rambo: I work for a company that’s not in Hanford, but for Hanford, that does radioactive waste from Hanford. Franklin: Okay, which company? Rhonda Rambo: It’s Perma-Fix Northwest. Franklin: There’s such a litany of contractors that’s it’s always, like, I need a map. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: I’m scared to make one because I don’t know if I have that much space on a piece of paper. Bryan Rambo: Is it all Battelle now? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, we’re right off of Battelle here, on the other side. Franklin: Our project is a subcontractor of MSA so we’re involved. WSU’s also involved in the web, as I like to call it. The web of Hanford contractors. And how long have you been with Perma-Fix Northwest? Bryan Rambo: You’ve been there— Rhonda Rambo: I’ve been at the site 19 years. It’s been owned three times. So it went from ATG which is Allied Technology— Franklin: Yeah. Rhonda Rambo: To Pacific Eco Solutions which is abbreviated for PECOS to now what is now Perma-Fix. Franklin: And what is your specific job within Perma-Fix? Rhonda Rambo: As of right now, I’m doing material control documentation. Before I was an operator, the other years there. Franklin: An operator of? Rhonda Rambo: On the Site handling the waste. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. So kind of similar questions to Bryan’s—what on-the-job training did you receive? Rhonda Rambo: Hazardous waste training, material—you know, as far as we had to get a 40-hour— Bryan Rambo: You’re RTC cleared, too, aren’t you? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. We had to get hazardous waste training. Still today. We still keep that going. A physical every year. And on-the-job training pretty much every year we do it out on Site. It’s a nice job. Yeah. Franklin: Could you describe a typical work day? Rhonda Rambo: Typical work day, we do a job briefing in the morning, about what we’re getting into. We go over the paperwork that we might have to sign saying we understand what we’re getting into, what type of waste. And then usually we go in and suit up, put our respo on, and get to opening up containers and— Franklin: Wow. Rhonda Rambo: --start processing the waste. So now that I’m out in the office, I do the receiving of the waste now. And I enter it into—we have a database that I enter it into. And from there, lots of waste comes, I go to meet the drivers, get the paperwork, sign it. I create the barcodes that we use to mark the containers, and then I track the waste after it goes into the different facilities of the waste is being done at, I track that waste in that database. And then I build the shipment and give it off to our shipper who reviews it and sends it off to get notification and that’s the end of the process. And I do it on a daily basis. Franklin: Wow. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: And we interacted, because I had to work with her to get— Rhonda Rambo: Waste coming. Bryan Rambo: Into her facilities to bring waste, you know, escort it, make sure nothing happens to it between coming out of the Area to her area. But she’s right, I would go in there with full gear, and—[LAUGHTER] I said, wanna see—the security folks would know me, but once I’d go in there, they’re just worried, what’s going on. Because they didn’t know. Franklin: Right, because I go on the Site and Hanford Patrol is pretty tactical. It’s not much different from what you would see on a base. Which really surprised me when I got here. Especially comparing photos of Patrol guys from the ‘50s and ‘60s that, you know, look like—you know, they kind of look like Mayberry-- Bryan Rambo: Yeah, exactly, and what’s the way it was with my father. And now you see like camouflage and whole wearing gear and everything. Franklin: Automatic weapons. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Franklin: Yeah, it’s a real different—it’s a real different world. Rhonda Rambo: He used to come on my lunch hour, and I’d be playing cards. And he suited up. And they’re like, your brother’s got a gun. We’re not supposed to have guns on Site. I said, he’s still on the job. He can have that gun. On the Site. [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, so. Bryan Rambo: But you tell them, and say, hey, don’t make any trouble with me, which wasn’t nice. Rhonda Rambo: I would say, yeah, don’t mess with me, because there’s that gun right there. I might decide to take a few of you out. But we know, it’s a joke. Everybody knows it’s a joke. But it was fun. Bryan Rambo: It was good seeing sis, though. It’s just—you know, see how she’s doing and vice versa, it was nice. Franklin: That’s good, that’s good. Let’s see here. And similar questions, good relationships with your coworkers? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: And everything? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Franklin: No—treated on the job well? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Well—yeah. Franklin: Yeah? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, there’s been a few—maybe not so much—there’s been a few little— Franklin: Maybe in the past? Rhonda Rambo: There’s been a few little incidents. But nothing that couldn’t—that hasn’t been dealt with. So, I could say there has been some people that would say something. And I don’t know if they just didn’t know better. So— Franklin: You mean something like insulting, racially motivated? Rhonda Rambo: Racially. They would kind of in a round-about way say stuff. And then they would think—they’d, ha ha ha. But I would go, ha ha ha and then let them know, yeah, you’re incorrect. So I kind of—I was there prior and I left when it was ATG. And I went and worked at the Interstate Nuclear Services which is a laundry facility off of the Bypass there, on 240. I left and went there for five years. My old supervisor sent a note saying, hey, come back, with the truck driver that was picking up the laundry from ATG. And I read that note, and I thought, you know, maybe I should go back now. But I kind of knew going back that there was things that I wouldn’t tolerate if I go back. Because it was majority—I was sometimes the only woman on the whole crew, with all men. And you know, growing up with boys kind of made me thicker-skinned for some of the stuff. So when I went back, one of the guys, the leads, was saying, you know, you’re going to be on a respo all day. And I said, yeah, I know. And he—I guess he didn’t realize I had worked there before, and he thought he was trying to scare me, intimidate me. I just looked at him like, yeah, I know. He didn’t know I had worked there and I let him know—I know. So some things like that would happen. And I guess, like you say, you’re a woman and lunchroom chatter and belching and farting and the cursing and everything. And the first time, they go, oh, sorry. And I’m like, it’s okay, I’m used to it. I worked here before. But if it became racist or slightly, I usually nipped it in the bud. Because that’s something I’m not going to listen to or tolerate. So pretty much indirect now, people know with me. Oops, I’m sorry. But they usually—right now, we got a good bunch of people I work with and it’s a minority-type—so I’m still the only black person there but it doesn’t affect me like before. Because throughout the years there were other black males there and a few black females, and they kind of gradually left to go out further to the Hanford Site. I remember one of the workers there was from Louisiana—one of the male workers. He came to my office one time and said, Rhonda, I’m leaving you. And we were the only black male and female on the site. And I said, it’s okay. And he said, I really feel bad. And I’m going, it’s okay. I go, I’ve been here before. This is nothing new to me. So I let him know, hey, it’s okay. But he really did feel bad that he was leaving me. He felt like he was really leaving me. And I told him, no, you got to do what’s right for you. This is okay for me to be here, and I accepted it. I don’t feel—I don’t know. I was gone for two weeks here just a month ago and I had emails from coworkers, females, males, saying, when are you coming back? We miss you. How’s your arm—I had arm surgery. They were happy to see me back. I do bring a little life to the party, so, I mean— Franklin: Yeah, I can see that. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I can see that, awesome. In what ways did security or secrecy at Hanford impact your daily lives? Bryan Rambo: When we worked out there? When I was working out there? Franklin: Yeah. Or—well, maybe starting with your father, if any, and then kind of progressing to when each of you have worked out there. Bryan Rambo: Like I said, for my father, he was, like I said— Rhonda Rambo: Pretty quiet. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, he didn’t talk much about work. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: He just, not that out there. Not Hanford. Rhonda Rambo: I just remember one time we went on a trip, he’d point to those mountains. And say, you know, there’s missiles out there. And that’s what I remember. Bryan Rambo: Yeah. He didn’t tell me that one, but I’ve been the one ‘til I got out there— Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, he said if we were ever to be under attack, he said, there’s silos out here that are going to shoot missiles that are going to come up. And I still believe that today, that’s probably true what he was saying, but you know, you ain’t going to hear it on the news. But I can’t imagine them not having something out there to protect the Site if need be. But that’s all I remember Hanford work that he’d be saying—we were driving down the road going to Yakima or something, and he’s like, you know there’s silos out there with missiles that would shoot them. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, he never told me that when we were driving through on a drive-around. He didn’t tell me that, so you got something I didn’t know about. [LAUGHTER] Rhonda Rambo: I don’t know, I just think both our parents were strong Afro-Americans and I think that they wanted us to grow up and be strong Afro-Americans in society. And I remember my mom saying, whatever you do in life, whether it’s garbage pickup, working in a fast food restaurant, whatever, do the best you can. And that’s what I believe in today. You give it your all, good or bad, you try your hardest. If you don’t like it, try something else. And I believe in sticking through the thick and thin of things. And when you have a family, I think you have to learn to take a lot of stuff to put food on the table and learn that life’s not that easy sometimes and you have to take whatever’s dealt out to you in life and make it the best that you can. I try to, again, instill that in my family, that, yeah there’s good times and there’s bad times and you just have to learn to strive as a family knit and grow old and learn from your mistakes if you have some. And have faith. I think that’s a lot of it. Franklin: Yeah. How did you feel—how do you feel about your experiences working on the Hanford Site, given the mission of Hanford was to produce material for nuclear weapons, and that larger connection to not only national security but also this element of mutually-assured destruction and the destructive power of nuclear weapons? Bryan Rambo: Ah. Rhonda Rambo: Oh, yeah. Bryan Rambo: Let’s just start with her again. You. Rhonda Rambo: I guess I understand that we have to have something. But how much do we have to have? And what’s the point? Why threaten other countries with annihilation when it’s going to not affect just where you shoot it but everything else around it that may not ever come back? I don’t think that life should be taken so lightly. When you say, oh, I’m going to shoot this and take care of this, when you know once that thing drops, it’s going to take care of a lot of other stuff, too. And I don’t think that we should use that as a means of controlling or getting your way, like a bully type of situation. That, to me, is like—that should be the last streams of something to be used, I would think. But I know we have to say we can protect ourselves. But I don’t know. I just think that that’s—I know my dad was in the era of when they were building the plutonium for the bomb. But he probably didn’t care about that. He cared about putting food on the table, I’m sure. I mean, that was probably the last thing on his mind. He’s probably thinking, I’ve got seven kids I’ve got to feed. And that’s probably all he was thinking about. And the job, it was a good job to have at the time. I don’t know if he was worried about it like that. If he did, I never saw it. Bryan Rambo: He did keep the food on the table, that was important. We never went hungry. Never. Rhonda Rambo: Never. Bryan Rambo: Mom and Dad, they kept it going. For me, it’s different. My sister’s saying a lot that I agree with. It’s just, again, as a patrolman, I can see national security’s very important to me. But the same token, we’re on a—especially here at the Hanford Area now with the cleanup, I want everything to be safe for everybody. And even my sister, she does her part; her part is cleanup. And the plutonium in the Area, that happened, it was the time for it, and I guess they’d consider me a Cold War warrior like my dad was. And making plutonium and stuff was—we needed to have it. But again, do we need it that much? Who’s to say? The way things are going now with North Korea and the other countries—Russia’s even changing their philosophy on how many nukes they’re going to need. But I believe for us right now, for me, it was like my dad’s philosophy probably was. Just, hey, it’s there, it’s a good job. Even more paying job at the time than my father did and it helped me and my family. It kept, again, food on the table and got them to school. Did things I needed. But I do care a lot about the security. But I do also care about cleaning the stuff up, keeping it clean and minimizing it. Less nukes would be better. But on the same token, I’d like to clean up what we have and maintain that and try to not make new ones if we don’t have to. But right now it’s the way it is. Franklin: Yeah. What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Rhonda Rambo: The most important? Bryan Rambo: Oh, this is—well, it was needed during the war—the big war, World War II. It ended it. Questions whether it was needed to make the bombs for the bombing of Japan for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those are questions that wasn’t part of my era, but I know it was important then. It was always going to be part of the history of America that Hanford did this. One of the bombs, at least, was built here and produced. Rhonda Rambo: I think that— Bryan Rambo: Its legacy, though, is—right now is that— Rhonda Rambo: The energy. Bryan Rambo: The energy it still produces. And we had good things that we produced too. Our nuclear reactor that was both producing electricity and made nukes, which was very interesting. The N Reactor. Franklin: The N Reactor, yeah. Bryan Rambo: And the B Reactor, of course, was one of the big first ones built out there. I’m just thinking, it’s a part of our history. You can’t get away from it. Rhonda Rambo: No. Bryan Rambo: If I go to Hawai’i and I visit there—when I went there just to go visit, and when I went to school there, too, you bring up the name—you brought up the names and you live in the Tri-Cities, they wouldn’t say Tri-Cities to me. Oh, you live near Hanford. They wouldn’t even think about saying Pasco, Kennewick or Richland. Oh, you live in Hanford. This is in Hawai’i. This is in Honolulu, with tourists and I’d say that name. Say, I live in Pasco or I live in the Tri-Cities, they’d bring that up. I mean, the ideal of Hanford is, it’s abundance of opportunity for this area to grow, and it did. But then you got—like you said, you got your negative connotation of whoa, it’s the place we built the nukes and also this place has got to be cleaned up because it’s one of the biggest areas of cleanup in the country. So it’s got its goods and bads. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, I think it’s developed—I think due to the energy that it does produce, still, is good. If you think about all the people that has been employed through there—this place would be a ghost town if that was to go away. So I think that Hanford is—it’s a plus, but it’s a negative, too, because we have to have it. We need to clean it up. We got the energy from it, but we also got the nuke side that was bad, too. So it’s kind of a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don’t. Franklin: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hm. Rhonda Rambo: So, I think we’re thankful for what it has given and even what it’s still taking. Because a lot of lives are being lost due to the exposures that are being done out there. And that’s what’s scary, too. When we, like you said, you go traveling and you say, oh, I’m from Washington. Some people say, oh, Seattle? And then you say, no, Tri-Cities. They’re saying, Tri-Cities? And then you say, Hanford, and then they get it. So that’s the stigma of knowing what does happen here and what goes on here. People say, oh you’re going to glow at night. And I go say, yeah, sure. Franklin: I’ve heard it, too. Rhonda Rambo: So. That’s the good and the negative. Franklin: What did you guys know or learn about the prior history of African Americans at Hanford during the Manhattan Project? Bryan Rambo: There was segregation going on. A lot of segregation. They would work there, particularly in B area, I heard they had— Rhonda Rambo: Separate. Bryan Rambo: You know, your white area and your black area and the folks would stay there and work. They was some interaction but not a lot of interaction. But they all did the same mission, but they had their own—they were still segregated because of the situation during that time. And at the time, Richland, as far as I know, there was no any blacks there. And in Kennewick, I know there wasn’t, or if there was, very few. And of course Pasco was the place for all the black were living at the time. But other than hearing a lot about B area at the time when B reactor was running, I didn’t hear—I was hearing at the time, there was even prison areas out there, believe it or not. We had areas there, just different spots and things were going on that I didn’t know were out or realized were out there that the Army was using and had out there. It’s just interesting. But they—it’s hard to explain other than—just from some of the older folks, though, he was saying, that have been out there. But then they wouldn’t say too much about it. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. I don’t even remember the bridge being—I remember them saying that there was a sign that said no blacks after a certain time. But like I said, my mom shielded us from a lot of it. So I think we were going to church so much—[LAUGHTER] I don’t think we had time to worry about what was going over on that side of town. I just remember sports stuff, there would be sports after some of the games from the different local—from Richland and Kennewick. I remember there was a riot in Memorial Park. Franklin: When was that? Bryan Rambo: That was in— Rhonda Rambo: Oh, god, that had to be back in— Bryan Rambo: ’60--? Rhonda Rambo: The ‘70s, wasn’t it? Bryan Rambo: I think it was ’70 or ’69 or ’70, but— Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, but— Franklin: Did either of you participate? Rhonda Rambo: Not me, but my— Bryan Rambo: Older brother. Rhonda Rambo: Older brother, yeah. Bryan Rambo: Artis. Rhonda Rambo: And Dwayne, they were in it, you know. Franklin: What—do you know what--? Rhonda Rambo: It was—well, rumor had it that something—one of the guys from Navy Homes had an issue with somebody over here on the west side. All of Navy Homes kids showed up here at the park, in Memorial Park. And all the west side kids, which was one of our brothers or two of our brothers, had all our neighbor kids go there, and it was a big brawl. Franklin: Oh. So it was more like a neighborhood type of beef than like a civil rights demonstration? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, it was more like a beef between one—the Navy Homes and the west side. Franklin: Ah, okay. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. But— Franklin: That kind of leads me into my next question. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here when you were growing up in that era? Bryan Rambo: Well— Rhonda Rambo: Civil rights? I can’t think of any. Maybe the high school one with Whittier. Bryan Rambo: Well, the high school, it was an issue, too. Artie was more or less—our older brother—was more or less involved in that. But for myself at the time, I was in middle school at the time at Stevens, it was some issues going on. Because it was during the civil rights of the Watts thing, riots were going on. ’68 was the assassination unfortunately happened there, and Kennedy and Martin Luther King further in there. Franklin: Yeah, Malcolm X, too. Bryan Rambo: Things were really static but I was still just going into middle school. Nothing was per se, I was just hearing a lot, hearing a lot of what was going on, but didn’t see a lot of major instances I can remember. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: But my older brother could, he could probably tell you more insight on that. Franklin: Were either of you involved in any civil rights efforts? Marches, protests? Rhonda Rambo: Nope. Franklin: Anything? Rhonda Rambo: No. Bryan Rambo: No, we were—I was part of the black African American scholarship group. They got that, but— Rhonda Rambo: AA. Bryan Rambo: AA. You weren’t—you were a part of that, too, weren’t you? Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, but I didn’t participate in too many—I mean, I’ve never been in any kind of walks or protests. No. I was a good girl. I was. Bryan Rambo: But again, like—the situation with us, because we were living in the fringe of the west side, I was stigmated myself—I don’t know if my sister wouldn’t say so much or my older brothers—but when I would go there they would say, you talk like you’re a white guy, you talk like you’re black, you’re on this side of town. And there was some—because you moved and you’re over there, now you’re part of them kind of— Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, I do remember that kind of atmosphere. Bryan Rambo: Oreo stigma, I would call it. Rhonda Rambo: You think you’re better because you’re living on the west side. That kind of stuff, you know. Franklin: They maybe see you as being kind of whitewashed. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s what I would say. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah. You don’t have to ride a bus because you’re in walking distance of the schools, that kind of thing. Franklin: So you were seen as being maybe in a position of privilege Bryan Rambo: Yeah, and that kind of put a stigma on me, or tried to. But like I said, it’s something that you just get over, but. Franklin: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: But that was our situation. Rhonda Rambo: Yeah, I remember that. I remember that feeling, too, of—you know. But again, my mom taught us, again, it’s only words, so you can’t help but where you were raised. I mean, your parents chose you to live on the east side of town, there was an opportunity for my dad to buy a house, he bought a house. He wasn’t worried about what side of town. I guess maybe he might have been worried about what side of town, but maybe it was closer to work. I don’t know. I mean. I just thought that they just wanted us to have a home. It wasn’t a mansion. It was just a home. A four-bedroom home. Imagine that, trying to put six boys in a four bedroom home. Somebody didn’t get their own room, so. Bryan Rambo: Bunkbeds, it was bunkbeds! Rhonda Rambo: Bunkbeds, you know. Franklin: Yup. Yeah. I forgot to ask, were your parents both from the same town? Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Franklin: Was that how they knew each other? Bryan Rambo: Yes. Rhonda Rambo: Yes. Franklin: Okay, okay, that makes a lot of sense. So I just have a couple kind of large-scale questions and then, I guess this is for both of you. What would you like—this is usually a Cold War question, but I’ll kind of open it up to now and cleanup—but what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford? During the Cold War and then during this cleanup phase. Rhonda Rambo: During it? Bryan Rambo: Like I said, being out there. You mean, opportunities for the folks coming in now? Rhonda Rambo: Or just the opportunity of— Franklin: I guess if you had the chance to reflect on your experience and you could talk to someone in the future and someone was like, wow, what was that like to work at Hanford? What was your contribution, or what do you think Hanford’s contribution is? How would you answer that question if you had to tell a future generation what it was like, or what would you want them to know? What’s the most important thing for them to know about? Bryan Rambo: Well, like you said earlier, it’s a long—of course you got to go from the beginning, and you’re part of that, you’re part of that generation, that long generation from the war, World War II times to now, and the cleanup. You’ve got several various spots you got to look at. Because you got the war, then you got the Cold War era, then you got the cleanup. Each phase has its own—people will probably say different on each phase. Me, being out—again, I’m from the Cold War era because we stopped making a lot of the material, and then to cleanup, I would say, it was a job opportunity and it was a job that had to get done. And it still is. I mean, it’s still—you can’t let it sit out there and not have nothing done with it. You’ve got to be safe, and I trust all the time on my time, those years I’ve been out there, safety was one of the most things—safety and security. You don’t want to take that stuff home. You don’t want to get contaminated. You didn’t want to bring it home to your family or your cars or stuff, like I’ve been hearing about today, last few weeks. Very disturbing to me. Franklin: God, yeah. Bryan Rambo: I think that the newer generation coming in, I think the folks from the older generation that were operators and that stayed out there, been out there, and leaving, like I said, security and safety was the utmost, personally for me. And my feelings now is that the folks out there now is kind of going away from a lot of security. They want to clean, clean, clean and not be safe, safe, safe. I hear a lot of safety, but I think that we need more of doing real protection of the worker to get the job done and not use—if it’s got to be slowed down, so be it, or stop it. But it’s got to be slowed down. Because during my years out there, we’ve had—there have been incidents out there, unfortunately. There have been cleanups that have taken place there that have helped. And then also there’s times there that they could’ve been better, more diligent in the cleanup as far as how to do it and how to protect themselves and all of that. And it hasn’t been done. It hasn’t been done properly. Particularly, areas that as patrolmen, some areas that I would go and check out, areas that I was really worried about, things—a farm that my vent, like they’re talking about now, a lot of venting and things going on—things could happen. And you’re just doing a security check and you don’t know what you’re going to get, you know? I just think, it’s more safety needed out there. And give the folks the tools that the people that are out there, that know, have been out there, give them more of the tools they need. If they say they need masks or they need more equipment to do protection, so be it. Don’t—do it now, don’t wait. Just do it. And do all the proper procedures and do all the procedures. Your full stop, your operational, and then after it’s all done, you do an evaluation and make sure everything’s done right. And what didn’t, what could’ve been done better? Do it even better. As my sister would agree with her job, the same thing, you just have to— Rhonda Rambo: The safety. Bryan Rambo: I just think, the less we hear about it on the news, it’s better for me, always better for me, hearing about it. Especially PUREX that just—that brings some history back there about that issue, about that tunnel. And I’m not too happy about that. Because that could’ve—that situation should’ve been done properly through the years, taken care of. And PFP and things like that. They need to slow down and just do it properly and safely so everybody’s happy, so everybody comes home. That’s the important thing. You want to come home. You want to come home to your family. Franklin: Yeah. Bryan Rambo: And it is a good job, and it is an opportunity, and it is good, because you’re taken care of, not only yourself, but you are taking care of your environment, your future environment in your surrounding in the future as well as the present. It just has to be done right. Rhonda Rambo: Mm-hmm. That’s what I think, too. That it’s important for the generations—I’m sure that if my dad was to talk about it, he probably would’ve said, you know, if you ever work out there, be safe. My mom’s biggest fear was where I’m at now because of our dad working at Hanford. She just kept saying, you know your dad worked in there. You know what he went through. I don’t want to see someone suffer like our dad did. He didn’t die fast. So when I talk to the young people at my job, I specifically tell them, you don’t want to be on an oxygen machine with your lungs collapsing in bed and your family watching you. For me, that’s all I remember of my dad, is really laying in a bed, on oxygen. I remember him being at the veteran’s hospital in Walla Walla and me and my younger brother were so young, we weren’t allowed to go in there to visit. So the older ones would prop the door and we’d sneak in and say hi anyway. You don’t—that’s a legacy you don’t want to leave your family when you’re working out at Hanford. You don’t want to have to think about the ifs and the ands from what could happen to you from coming home—from being exposed. So safety, to me, is a main important thing. And the cleanup is also necessary. We don’t want it in our drinking water. We want this environment—the river runs through all these counties. Everybody enjoys it. Everybody wants to be out there fishing and boating. I tell my kids, I don’t—if you go out to the water, waterskiing with your dad, try not to drink that water. Because we don’t know for sure it doesn’t have the potential of that. Every time the wind blows around Tri-Cities, I worry, because that’s not—everything’s not fastened out there. So a dust storm comes through, that stuff is lifting. So, where is it going? In our air. So we have to think, it’s always here. It’s always around us. The mindset of what people have to think about out there is that same way. Just because you can’t physically see it doesn’t mean it’s not there, and you just have to take all the precautions of if it was there. Safety is the first thing. Training is important. And health is everything. So I want the people to think that it’s a good thing. It’s provided a lot of things in Tri-Cities. The growth is because of Hanford, mainly. Like I said, I don’t think it would be anything here if that was to shut down completely. So the generations of families that come through here, generations of families—children are working in the Area and making better money than probably their parents did and enjoying better things than their parents did. So Hanford is a blessing but it’s also something we really have to be cautious about, too, and treat it safely in the right way. Bryan Rambo: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yeah. Great. Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life at Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Rhonda Rambo: I just believe that my parents moving here, they moved here because they heard the good news. This project here. To come here and work and the families that moved here were close-knit in some ways. Yeah, they had—most of them—multiple people were in different churches, but those churches still fellowshipped in some way. So those families still hooked up and saw each other and talked about how they grew up and when this happened and when that happened. I just think that they saw it as a big opportunity for black families to come and raise their families in a safe environment and make some kind of living. I think that’s what brought us here today, is that I believe that same token. I tell people all the time, it’s a great place to live. You can make good money here if you apply yourself and look for it, it’s here. Franklin: Yeah. Agreed. Bryan Rambo: And the same—same thing my sister was saying, like I said, it was the great migration. They could’ve easily went north to Chicago or New York, too, at the time, because folks were moving—California, even. I’m glad that our parents moved here. I’m glad that they did. Because we had the opportunities galore here. Even recently, hearing on the news that folks are just moving into Pasco itself is just growing extremely fast because of the housing opportunities, it’s cheaper, and the living conditions is a lot better, everything. And Hanford is a big part of it. Would I like to have Hanford as the big part in the future? Less, I think. I think hopefully we diversify more into less Hanford but more maybe scientific, I would say R&D, more or less. And less of—and things that we learn how to clean up will help other areas across the country and around the world. But I would like it to be less emphasis on Hanford and more emphasis on other products and other things. I know we got a big agricultural base, too, here, that helps also. But looking back, I just—I wouldn’t have any other way, either. I love it here. I mean, I’ve got our children here—we had our children here, we have grown here. From my father, like I said, he got me a good work ethic, my mother had a great work ethic. It helped me get through a lot of racial barriers. If there were, I—I worked harder. My mother said, work harder and Dad said, work harder, and I did. And I succeeded. I feel like I succeeded a lot in life. We’re very blessed and thankful for that. So looking back, I have—I think it’s a great opportunity and I’m glad they did move here and advanced our life and our kids’. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much, Bryan and Rhonda. I really appreciate you coming to interview with us and talk about your life and your parents’ life. Rhonda Rambo: Thank you. Bryan Rambo: Yeah, thank you. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Patrol 400 Area 100 Area 300 Area 200 East Area N Reactor Perma-Fix Northwest Battelle PUREX Plutonium Finishing Plant (PFP) B Reactor Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bryan and Rhonda Rambo Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Migration School integration Segregation Discrimination Racism Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear energy Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Bryan and Rhonda Rambo were both born in Pasco, Washington. Their parents moved to Pasco, Washington in the early 1950s. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F85876d074169360615ad29a1a904f145.JPG bc53339af15a2920bba8e308061271cb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F75acc14b070ab69b463520ab9835d311.mp4 903cb1901c035c5d398ddd6c0ca3859a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rickie Robinson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Richie Robinson— Rickie Robinson: Rickie. Franklin: Rick—sorry, I keep doing that. Rickie Robinson. On February 16th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Rickie about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Robinson: My name is Rickie Wright Robinson. R-I-C-K-I-E, W-R-I-G-H-T, R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Rickie. So usually I start by asking people about how they came to the Hanford area—or to the Tri-Cities—but your parents were the first ones in your family to come here, right? Robinson: Yes, they— Franklin: So what—oh, sorry, go ahead. Robinson: They moved to Pasco in 1947 and opened a little restaurant. They called it the Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Okay. And why did your parents move to Pasco? Robinson: They were recently discharged, if you will. My dad was from the Navy. Because he fought in World War II. They were actually planning on moving from Seattle—they were living in Seattle at the time. They were actually planning on moving to San Diego. They told me that they heard about this place over in southeastern Washington where you could go and make a lot of money. Because there was this Hanford thing going on. Wheat country, and all that, and so forth. So they drove over here, and liked what they saw, and decided to stay. They always used to chuckle about that, because they had already sent all of their stuff to San Diego. When they got here, they said, whoa, we’d better stay here. So they came, bought a piece of property over in east Pasco, just adjacent to the railroad tracks there on Queen Street, and opened the little restaurant. Franklin: Besides the economy, what also was—why else were your parents attracted to the area? Was there already a pretty large black community in east Pasco? Robinson: Not really. Not at that time. In 1947, there were black people that were starting to come into the Tri-Cities, as with all of the Pacific Northwest, mostly because of the economy that was happening here in the State of Washington. Western Washington, of course, there was Boeing and all of that. Over here, it was Hanford, and these big farms and all that kind of stuff. But what attracted the black people here at that time was the work that was available in construction and so forth, here at Hanford. Franklin: Did your parents—either of your parents ever work at Hanford? Robinson: A little bit. My dad, he worked as a carpenter for a little while, and he also worked in one of the plants out there, I think it was B Plant. But not for very long. For the bulk of his time at work here, he worked at the Tri-City Country Club. He was the assistant manager of not only the Tri-City Country Club but the Walla Walla Country Club and Yakima Country Club. So, as a family, we lived in all three cities, but we spent most of our time here in the Tri-Cities. My mother, she was a social worker for the Pasco School District. Franklin: Your mom left a pretty big imprint in Pasco, right, and the school district. Robinson: Yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that. Robinson: Yes, she was hired by the superintendent at the time. His name was Lewis Ferrari. Dr. Lewis Ferrari. He was concerned about the lack of communication between the Pasco School District and the African American community. Of course, this was in the early-to-mid ‘60s, and of course, if you read your history books, you know what was going on in the country in the time about Civil Rights and all that. He was extremely concerned about that, and since my mother had some experience in doing Campfire Girls and other things like that around the community, he hired her and created a position that was called ombudsman. So her job was to do outreach, to make sure the kids got to school, got what they needed to perform well in school like that. Kind of an outreach of that, she interacted with a lot of families and so forth. This was also the time when a lot of the migration started taking place with the Hispanic people moving into the Tri-Cities to work on the farms and so forth like that. And then something started to happen with that population of people: they started to stay, as opposed to come up for seasons and then go back to Texas or Mexico or wherever they were from. They started to stay. And she had—she interacted with a lot of Hispanic people as well as the black families in Pasco. Franklin: So the early-to-mid ‘60s, then, that’s that moment where Pasco really starts to diversify—where the Hispanic population starts becoming more permanent? Robinson: More permanent, and of course the black population was becoming more pronounced, more vocal. Pasco had its share of marches and things like that to articulate their need for fair treatment for housing and all the other things that were going on all across the country. And it was happening here in the Tri-Cities as well. Predominantly in Pasco at that time. Franklin: Do you remember any specific events in Pasco connected to the civil rights movement? Robinson: Yes, I remember some marches that were taking place. Of course, I was a young kid and a teenager at the time. I remember some strife that was going on at Pasco High. Because I went to Pasco High. There was some strife going on at Pasco High. School got closed down a few times. Franklin: Really? Robinson: Yeah. Franklin: What for? Robinson: As I recall, there were some bomb threats that were phoned in. No bombs were ever found. But when a bomb threat would come in, then they would close the school. And there were fights and things like that. Thankfully, no shootings. You know. But we had our share. Franklin: Okay. Where were your parents from? Where were your parents born? Robinson: My dad was born in San Antonio, Texas. My mom was born in Memphis, Tennessee, but she was raised in Saginaw, Michigan. Franklin: Oh, okay. Robinson: And they met in Douglas, Arizona. Never could figure out what my mother was doing in Douglas, Arizona, because she got married at an early age, age 16—not to my dad, to another guy. So from age 16 up until just before she met—married my father, she lived in Chicago. She was a waitress and things like that. My dad, on the other hand, was on his way to Los Angeles from San Antonio, because his family had a long history of culinary work, working in hotels and things like that. He worked in some of the prominent hotels in San Antonio, Texas. I can’t recall the name of this big prominent hotel, but it’s adjacent to the Alamo. And I remember the last time I took my dad home to San Antonio, he said, that, that was my first job there. It was this big hotel, and it’s adjacent to the Alamo. But he had a long history of that. Anyway, he was on his way to Los Angeles to work with his uncles who had moved to Los Angeles. There were a lot of opportunities for culinary work down there. When he was in Douglas, Arizona, where one of his uncles lived, he got his draft notice for the Navy. And he ended up in Seattle. So he never made it Los Angeles. He and my mother met in Douglas, Arizona. My father was also coming out of a marriage that was falling apart. The two of them met. When he got drafted, he went to Seattle and so forth, and then he sent for my mom, and they got married in 1945. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: And then moved to the Tri-Cities in 1947. Franklin: Okay. I wanted to ask a bit about segregation, both formal and informal. So your parents, at least where they were born, would have experienced formal segregation, Jim Crow. But the North was kind of an area of informal segregation. Robinson: Informal, yes. Franklin: Did your parents ever talk about their experiences with the informal segregation of the North and in Pasco specifically? Robinson: Well, yes. They told me a story—of course, back then, when black people moved to the Tri-Cities, they were only shown property in east Pasco, which was east of the railroad tracks. So there were not any black people, that I can recall, that lived on the west side of the tracks. They told me some stories that had happened. In fact, a real incident of segregation, if you will, happened to my aunt, who’s my mom’s sister. She was pregnant with her second child, and it was in the middle of the summer on one of those 100-degree-plus days here in Pasco that we all love. She was pregnant, she walked into a Payless Drugstore—at that time Payless Drugstore was located on the corner of 4th and Lewis in Pasco. And she wanted a glass of water, and they wouldn’t give it to her. She just wanted a glass of ice water. They wouldn’t give it to her. So that’s one incident that they used to talk about. There’s also another incident that kind of happened like before my time that they used to talk about. There was an incident at the Greyhound bus station in Pasco. I can’t recall the details of it, but because of that incident, the Washington State Human Rights Commission was formed. Because, I think they would not—this story was told to me—they would not let this woman use the bathroom there. It turns out that that woman that they would not let use the bathroom was the wife of Adam Clayton Powell. Franklin: Yes. That she—and her name escapes me—it wasn’t the bathroom; they wouldn’t serve her lunch. Robinson: Okay, I knew it was something, yeah. Franklin: And the reason she was given—this was in 1949—was that we don’t serve blacks here. You can get your food to go, was the— Robinson: Right, yeah. And so that was the wrong woman to do that to. Franklin: Yeah. Robinson: So, anyway, that’s a thing of—a good thing coming out of a bad incident. Franklin: Right, you mean the formation of the civil rights commission— Robinson: Yeah, the civil rights commission and things of that nature. And, you know, incidents like that, they’re ugly, but oftentimes, they turn out to be good things, because they spur people into motion. Franklin: Right, yeah, definitely. What about—to your knowledge, were people ever shown property in Kennewick? What was the relationship between Kennewick and Pasco at that time, vis-à-vis African Americans and housing? Robinson: Well, we grew up—when I was growing up here, there was this—I don’t know if it was an unwritten rule, or if it was a written rule someplace, that all black people had to be out of Kennewick by sundown. They used to say there was a sign there. I personally never saw the sign. But there was that kind of unwritten rule. I will say, an incident that happened to me personally—and this was after I was old enough to have my own car; I think I was maybe 19, maybe 20 years old at the time, so that would have been in 1970, 1971, or ’72. Somewhere in that neck of the woods. I was driving in Kennewick in my car in the middle of the afternoon, and I was pulled over by the police. He wanted to know what I was doing in Kennewick. I’ve never been—I’m no angel, you know, but I’m not a square, either, but I was never on the police radar, if you will, as somebody that they needed to keep an eye on. So I thought that was weird, that he would pull me over and ask me what I was doing in Kennewick at 3:00 in the— Franklin: Did he give you a reason, like for a traffic infraction or something? Robinson: What he told me is that there was a report of somebody doing something inappropriate over at Kennewick High School. I wasn’t anywhere near Kennewick High School when that went down, whatever he was talking about. I don’t know if the description was of my car or whatever. But that was it. Now, he did let me go. I wasn’t arrested or anything like that. But, you know. It was just an odd question to be asking somebody at 3:00 in the afternoon, why are you in Kennewick? Franklin: Right, and you felt you had been singled out because of your race. Robinson: Oh, definitely. Franklin: Okay, let me see here. We actually already covered quite a bit of my—oh, so you had mentioned that blacks were only shown homes in east Pasco. So that east Pasco seems to be kind of the locus of the black community in the Tri-Cities. Robinson: It was at that time. Franklin: It was at that time. I’m wondering if you could talk a bit more about growing up there. What were the important institutions? What was community life like? Robinson: Oh, it was nice, because we were a close-knit community. All of our churches were over there. I went to St. James CME Church, but there was also Morning Star Baptist Church, there was Church of God and Christ, there was Greater Faith Baptist and New Hope Baptist Church. So we would do a lot of things over there. The focus of our activities as kids in east Pasco was Kurtzman Park. That was the spot. And it was originally, I remember, it was called Candy Cane Park. Because I remember it had these little candy cane things on it when I was a little kid. But it was later renamed to Kurtzman Park, because I think the gentleman who donated to the city that land that he owned there, with the specificity that it be made into a park for the kids that lived in east Pasco. So that was—I never—I don’t know anything about that guy or—nothing, but that was what was told. Franklin: Cool. What kind of housing did you live in? Could you describe it? Robinson: I was fortunate. I lived in a regular house. Like I said, my dad opened a restaurant when he moved here. They bought a piece of property, and my dad—I mentioned he was a carpenter, along with being a culinary artist, he was also a carpenter—so, he made a portion of that house—no, I’ll take that back. He found an overturned trailer and pulled it up onto the property. It had been abandoned. He went through all of the legal hoops that you have to jump through for a trailer and so forth. Got it licensed and so forth, fixed it up and made it into a restaurant, and it was right adjacent to our house. So I grew up in what would be called middle class. So my housing was fine, and there were many people in east Pasco who had built their own homes. Because many of the people who lived in east Pasco, they came up here, they were tradesmen. They were bricklayers, carpenters, et cetera, et cetera. So they had built their own homes. And of course there were other homes that were not so good. But for the most part, life was fine. We had dirt roads for streets. One of the biggest pieces of amazement for me as someone who grew up in Pasco is Oregon Street. Because when I was little, Oregon Street was all but a dirt road. And now it’s this big, wide boulevard that goes all the way through, across the tracks and so forth. Back then, it didn’t. It kind of ended down where we lived. Franklin: So that trailer that your dad found, that’s what became the Queen Street Diner. Robinson: That was the first one, yeah. And before we actually named it—well, he named it the Queen Street Diner, and his thing was Texas fried chicken. Because, you know, he’s from Texas. But around town, they used to call it the Squeeze Inn. Franklin: Because it was— Robinson: Because it was just a trailer. And it was kind of like the hot spot at the time for people to come and socialize and so forth. So you know, you could only get so many people in a trailer. So they called it the Squeeze Inn. Franklin: [CHUCKLING] That’s really funny. Yeah. Did your parents ever talk to you much about working at Hanford? And what exactly they did, or what kind of projects they worked on? Robinson: Well, like I said, my dad was a carpenter. And also he worked at B Plant. I think it was B Plant; I could be wrong about exactly where. But not really in terms of the details about they did—what he did out there. My mom never worked at Hanford. She always worked in social work kinds of things. Most of that—she was like a 25-year employee with the Pasco School District. So they didn’t talk about that that much. Again, like I said, most of the time, when my dad was working, he was at the country club. So he’d go to work with a suit on and everything like that. Everybody thought we were rich. But we weren’t. Franklin: Did your dad ever talk about experiencing any discrimination or segregation at work? Robinson: Mm, not at work. Most of the time, when they talked about segregation and things like that, it was stuff that would happen in the community. Not necessarily at work. He never came home and told me stories about, do you know what happened, do you know what they said at work? And that’s not to say that they didn’t happen, but my parents had a way of dealing with that stuff, and they taught us how to deal with that, in such a way to be productive about it. Because we were always taught that we weren’t any better than anybody else. But believe me, nobody was better than us. And so we were to act a certain way that demanded respect and to give people respect. I remember--kind of a sidetrack to that—when urban renewal came through—because we lived on the east side when I was a little kid—right there kind of where Tommy’s Steel and Salvage is now, that’s where we used to live. And it’s kind of funny when I drive by there now, because I can still see some of the trees that were in my backyard at the time. They’re still there all these years later. But when urban renewal came through—and I think this was at the onset of the Johnson Administration—so they came and bought my parents out and so forth, and we moved to the west side of town. Right across the street from what is now a Boys and Girls Club in Pasco. Shortly after we moved there, there was a gentleman that lived across the street from us who actually knew my dad, because my dad worked at the country club and he was a member of the country club. He put his house up for sale, shortly after we moved there. And he came over and told my dad that he’s putting his house up for sale, he says, but believe me, we’d been planning on doing this for a long time. He was very apologetic to my father. Because you know, back then, there was the thing about white flight. Franklin: Right, right. Very well documented. Robinson: And so what my dad told him, and I’ll never forget this, he said, that’s okay, he said, because I’m going to put my house up for sale, too, but I’m going to get it while it’s hot. That’s how he handled that kind of stuff. Because, again, he always taught us—they always taught us—that we’re equal to everybody. So if the housing market is hot, he’s going to take advantage of it, and not be insulted by the fact that somebody put his house up for sale because this quote-unquote black family was moving in. Now, kind of ironically, they never did move. [LAUGHTER] The people across the street. Franklin: I guess the market wasn’t all that hot. Robinson: Exactly, I guess not. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that is a very well—you know, white flight occurred all across the—did you hear anything else—did that happen other places in west Pasco? How did west Pasco react to the urban renewal? Robinson: You know, I cannot say how it was. I can’t—because I was a kid. At that time, Pasco’s a small town. So as kids growing up together, black and white—we were kids. We’d always know what was taught to kids in their own homes about us, but we as kids would interact like kids do. Of course, there were times that we would fight, like I said earlier, there was a strife. And of course, if the wrong words were ever said, oh, it was on. But we never experienced seeing that kind of stuff to that degree that we see on TV, like people out protesting, keeping the black people out and stuff like that. I mean, again, we’re in the Pacific Northwest, so things were a little different here. I also shared with you the story about my aunt and being refused a glass of water. I’m sure it was 110 out that day. They wouldn’t give her a glass of ice water and she was pregnant! So, sure, there was that kind of stuff going on. But organized activities, demonstrating against black people moving places—I cannot recall that ever happening. But I am sure that—we would go into a store, and you could notice sometimes that people were kind of watching out, and watching you. Sometimes, it weighed on us. It was sorrow. We—at least in my household, we were taught how to deal with that. Franklin: Yeah, I think, subtle’s a really good word for that kind of— Robinson: Yeah. Franklin: It’s there, but it’s sometimes hard to get a real handle on it. Robinson: Yeah, it’s subtle, it’s subtle-slash-sleazy. I mean, because—you know what was going on. Franklin: Right, right, it’s like, clear, but subtle at the same time. Robinson: Right. Franklin: What kind of opportunities were available for betterment in the community for folks that came—like, maybe educational or monetary or job training or things like that? Robinson: Well, by the time—if you’re talking about me, by the time I reached the age of where those things became important, I—I got jobs. The first job that I had was, ironically, with the Pasco School District as—you know, I was a student—what do they call that? Oh, I sold ice cream during lunch hour. That was my first little paycheck. Oops. Take that back. My first job was with the Pasco School District, but it was as a janitor, because they had some kind of program—again, it was when—the ‘60s and so forth. So it was one of those social programs to give kids the opportunity to do work and earn some. So I was a janitor—a part-time janitor with the Pasco School District. Then I became the lunch—that was my senior year in high school, when I became the lunch guy. That was cool, because I got both lunch hours. I sold ice cream. I was a senior and had all my credits, so it was kind of—my senior year in high school was kind of a picnic, if you will. Franklin: And everybody likes the ice cream guy. Robinson: Yeah. And then my first job out of high school was with the City of Pasco. I was a lifeguard. And then I worked at Grigg’s. I did not feel—and maybe it was because I was too young to know what was going on—but I did not feel any discrimination that way. Again, it could be because my family—you know, we talked about my mom a little bit. She was pretty well-known; our family was pretty well-known in the Tri-Cities at that time. Maybe it was because I was that Robinson kid. I don’t know. But I didn’t feel any of that. Educational opportunities—you had to leave town, because there was no WSU Tri-Cities at the time. You had to go out of town to go to college. I went to Eastern, myself—Eastern Washington State College. And then it became Eastern Washington University. Yeah. And then I am part of the first class to graduate from Eastern Washington University. Franklin: Oh, okay. Robinson: Yeah, when I went up there it was Eastern Washington State College, and then they got the designation of university. So I’m in the first class that graduated from Eastern Washington University. Franklin: That’s cool. Robinson: Shows my age. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And what did you get your college degree in? Robinson: I got my degree in applied psychology. I got kind of a weird degree—undergraduate degree. My degree was in applied psychology, but I minored in education so that I could get a teaching certificate. I actually came back to Pasco and I taught school for a couple of years, which makes me the second black person to graduate from Pasco schools and then come back and teach. The first person to do that was a lady that I grew up with; her name was Angie Ash. Yeah. She also grew up in Pasco schools, graduated, and went to—I think she went to Eastern, too, if I recall. And she came back and taught school, too. She did all of that a couple of years before I did. Franklin: Okay. And so you mentioned you ended up getting your teaching certificate. Robinson: Yes. Franklin: And then did you go on to school beyond that, or--? Robinson: Yes, but it wasn’t until years later. I went and got my master’s degree in business administration. But I had left the area by then. All of that kind of stuff happened over in the Seattle area which is where I live now. Franklin: Right. And what eventually—you mentioned you came back to Pasco for a few years; what eventually drew you out of the Tri-Cities? Robinson: More opportunities for what I was trying to do. I taught school for a couple of years, but after I got to teaching school, I discovered that teaching in a classroom wasn’t really for me. I used to joke around and say, I was worse than the kids. ADHD and all—that’s all me. But I love working with kids. I worked with kids all the time. During the time when I stayed here in Pasco, I was doing a lot of things with kids, with young people. I coached women’s softball, my wife and I, we organized a black Junior Miss pageant. This was back in 1976 when we did a pageant. It was an opportunity—we saw it as an opportunity for black people in the Tri-Cities to express themselves culturally, and then also it was a vehicle for us to give scholarships away for young people. We did that for ten years, before we left the area. I left the area in 1986. Franklin: Oh, that’s really wonderful. What kind of education did your parents have? Robinson: They both got their GEDs. I remember—I am old enough to remember when that happened. They got their GEDs from CBC. My dad had a ninth grade education. He dropped out of school because he needed to go to work to help his mother. My mother had a third-grade education. Franklin: Third-grade education! Robinson: Yes, she dropped out of school because her mother got sick. She was the oldest child. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: So it was on her to take care of her family, her siblings. She was the oldest child of two sisters and a brother, and then they also were raising a cousin. And that cousin now lives here in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Wow. Is this when your mother was in Michigan? Robinson: Yes, this was in Saginaw. Franklin: What kind of work was available to her with just a third-grade education at that time? Robinson: Well, when— Franklin: What did she do to support her family? Robinson: Well, by the time I came along—I was born in 1952—and by the time I came along, and when I was a little tyke, I remember that Mama would work at grocery stores, she was a checker and things like that. When we would live in Yakima, she worked at a little grocery store and so forth. When we lived in Walla Walla, I think she was a stay-at-home mom. When we moved back to the Tri-Cities, that is when she—and that was in 1963, when we moved back to the Tri-Cities for good—that’s when she started doing the social work things that became who she was as Virgie Robinson. She started a little Campfire group because she had three daughters. So she started a little Campfire group and so forth. And then she got hired on as a community liaison for an organization that was called Higher Horizons. She was a social worker and things like that. And then she got the job with the school district. But it was during that time when—I kind of think it was—I’m trying to—yeah, it was after we moved back to Pasco, and I remember when the two of them got their GED. Because they were jumping up and down. They were excited about getting their GED. I didn’t even know what a GED was. But I remember that. They were both—and they kind of got it at the same time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: Yeah. So it was something that they were doing as adults, that they were— Franklin: With kids. Robinson: Yeah, with kids and all that kind of stuff. I mean, they didn’t set us down, because, me, I was the only one old enough. Because I had—I grew up with three little sisters. I was the only one that was old enough to remember, kind of, that stuff. But they never sat us down and told us, okay, we’re getting our GED and this, that and the other. Franklin: But education was clearly pretty important to your— Robinson: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Franklin: To your parents. Robinson: Well, it was very important to them. It was very important for them to see their children get educated. And I can say, all of us have now gotten our degree in one form or another. So, yeah. Franklin: Okay, so we’ve gotten through quite a bit of—Hazel Scott, that’s her name. The lady who was in the Greyhound bus station in 1940— Robinson: Okay. Franklin: She was a very famous entertainer in the 1940s, and played all around the US and Europe. That’s right. Robinson: Okay. All right. Franklin: I just remembered—I went down my questions, and I was like, oh yeah, the Hazel Scott case. Robinson: Okay, well, it was that incident. Franklin: Yeah. I looked through the files of that incident recently in the state archives. It was very—yeah, they really picked the wrong person, because she could afford a much better lawyer than the guys that owned the Greyhound bus station restaurant could. Robinson: Absolutely, way out here in the boonies at the time. Because back then, this was way out in the middle of nowhere, the Tri-Cities. I mean, it’s still kind of isolated, but now we’ve got freeways all around. Back then, no, we were really isolated. I mean, I remember a trip to Seattle taking all day. Because it was all two-lane road between—the freeway—and I use that term generously—didn’t even start until after you come out of Cle Elum. And the house still sits there where the road would open up into what was called the freeway, which was, like I say, I use that term—[COUGH]—excuse me—generously, because it was just a four-lane highway, and they called that the freeway. Franklin: Yeah, certainly nothing compared to over there on the west side. Robinson: Oh, no. Franklin: Okay, let’s see here. I think I have gone over most of my questions. I want to talk a bit about the modern-day impact of your parents. So you’re back in town for an event named after your mom, right? Robinson: Well, yeah, we talked a little bit about the work that my mom did. When she passed away back in 2003, the Pasco School District was in this big building mode, because Pasco’s growing by leaps and bounds. At that time, you know, Pasco, I think, was the fastest growing city in the entire nation. So Pasco was building schools after schools after schools to accommodate all the kids that were coming in. So they decided to name one of their new elementary schools after my mom. So the Virgie Robinson Elementary School exists now. So what my sisters and I—I mentioned that I grew up with three little sisters—what we did, along with a niece that was also being raised with us, formed a non-profit organization called the Virgie Robinson Scholarship Fund. We give out scholarships to kids who went to that school, because it’s an elementary school, if kids go to that school when they are in elementary school, when they graduate from high school, they’re eligible to apply for a scholarship that we give. So it’s just a little niche of a school, because we don’t try to serve all the kids in the Pasco School District. Just those kids there. And so I’m in town, now, because I have a Board of Directors and so forth that’s based on counselors at Pasco High, Chiawana High, some other community people here. Our big fundraiser every year is an annual golf tournament and also a silent auction event. That’s how we raise funds to give out the scholarships. So I’m in town because I have a board meeting tomorrow to continue organizing that. We do that in April every year. Franklin: You mentioned your dad worked at country clubs, so was he a big—I know golf is a major part of country clubs. Is that how you were introduced to golf or was he a big golfer? Robinson: What’s funny about that is I’m not really a golfer. I’ve got a set of clothes that was given to me by my brother. I mentioned I was raised with three little sisters; I have an older brother and an older sister that were from my dad’s first marriage. My brother’s an avid golfer. My dad was a golfer, too; he was pretty good. He actually won a trophy. There’s a trophy in our house that Dad got. But golfing, per se, was for him, and not for me. I was into the regular sports at the time. You know, the football, basketball and baseball stuff. Because when I was coming up, golfing was square. This was before Tiger Woods and all of that. They wore funny pants. We used to say we would never wear those kinds of clothes: plaid pants and all that kind of stuff. So, today, I’m not a golfer. I go out every once in a while to the driving range. I’ve gotten to the place now where I can actually hit the ball straight. I think in my entire life, I may have played two, maybe three rounds of golf—you know, a whole thing. But I’m not a golfer. But I’m good at organizing stuff. So I’ve—with help—organized this golf tournament and so forth. Community events, I mean—maybe I inherited that from my mom. I’ve always organized community events. I mentioned a little earlier how I used to do things with kids, and we did that pageant and so forth. That was a community-wide event, too. A lot of people would come to that. Franklin: That’s great. Is there anything else that you would like to mention, related to migration, segregation, civil rights, and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Robinson: Well, like everybody else, during that time, we were gaining our consciousness as black people. Because, our history here in America is well-documented. When I came along, as a youngster, that consciousness was starting to form. We ceased being “colored”—“colored” with a small c. We migrated into “Colored,” with a big C, then we migrated into “Negroes.” And then we just—I don’t know who made the decision, but we just started to reclaim our African heritage. So thus the term African Americans. So, I was coming of age with all of that, that forethought and that thinking and so forth. When I went to college, I made sure that I took a lot of classes, just so I could learn a little bit more about our history as a people in this country, to go beyond Martin Luther King, Booker T. Washington, W. E. B. Du Bois. There’s a whole lot more to it than just that. There’s Carter G. Woodson and so forth. Inventors that were going. People that invented the—what is it? The telephone transmitter. That Alexander Graham Bell made big. But it was actually invented by a black man. I think his name was Granville T. Woods, was his name. The gentleman that invented the stoplight and stuff. We were never taught that kind of stuff in regular school. So I made sure that when I was in school that I took classes so that I could learn about that. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Well, Rickie, thank you very much for coming and interviewing with us today and telling us about your life in the Tri-Cities and your parents and their struggles and triumphs. Robinson: Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks for having me. My life growing up in the Tri-Cities, I have very fond memories here of growing up in the Tri-Cities. So, in spite of all the little stuff that happens, this is still my home. Franklin: Great. Okay. Thank you. Robinson: All right. Thank you. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952-1986 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rickie Robinson Description An account of the resource Rickie Robinson was born in Pasco, Washington in 1952. Rickie's parents moved to Pasco, Washington in 1947 and were influential in the community. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/16/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Yakima (Wash.) Migration Northwest, Pacific Civil rights Civil rights movements Segregation https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e1b99b59b66ae39b01a6307c5306428.JPG 885b0ad06a7807c10d6ce80f42a0e019 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa232d0c77186ed1562def6a34ee0f2aa.mp4 e24eab87fe4af71c6f5828c8dd18fed8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Slaughter Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Camera operator: You are recording. Robert Franklin: All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Slaughter on February 28, 2018. The interview is being conducted at The Brookstone in Kennewick, Washington. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record can you state and spell your full name for us? John Slaughter: John H. Slaughter. J-O-H-N. H. S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, John. Tell me how and why you came to the area. Slaughter: I was working with the Snoqualmie National Forest. We ran into some things—this is another—why don’t I just give you the background— Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: --and you can do whatever it is you want to do. Franklin: Sure. Slaughter: I graduated from Tennessee State University, and I applied for a job working for the Snoqualmie National Forest. And I was hired. So I worked for about five years for the Snoqualmie National Forest. And what caused me to want to get away, I had a bigot for a boss. He was forever talking about I had a white man’s job. Franklin: Did he actually say that to you? Slaughter: Yes! Yes. Franklin: On one occasion, or more than one occasion? Slaughter: Oh, all the time. All the time. So I decided, well—excuse me—I’m going to kill that son of a bitch. And I had set about how I could kill him and get away with it. I could not do that. There’s no way I could do that and get away with it. Unless I did something to provoke him. See, he did a lot of things to provoke me. So I decided—oh, right out—Naches, at the Naches Ranger Station, there, that’s where I lived. We had about 14 houses, cabins I mean, there. And that’s where I stayed. So we had to—I didn’t have a car. That’s about 35 miles from Yakima, where some civilization was. Some people were very, very kind to us. They knew the situation. See, I accepted the job, because I had—by the time I got that job, I had three kids. So hard times. So whenever they said, you’re hired, I just struck out and got on the train with my family and came out here. The people saw what the problem that I had, and many of them helped us out. Every time they had to go to Yakima or anyplace shopping, they’d stop by our cabin and ask, anything you want me to bring you, you want to go shopping with me? That kind of thing. Some were the other kind, but the vast majority of them, of 14 families, probably about two of them were bigots. Of course, that didn’t bother me. So I had to work to get two full paydays enough to go buy an old used car so that I could function. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: We’d go to town, my wife needed her hair done. Well, we didn’t know anybody that did black people’s hair. In fact, we didn’t know anybody from Yakima. [LAUGHTER] The point is, we met Herb Jones, a fella. He was—we would go to see one another. He lived in Yakima and I lived out in the woods there. So I got to know Herb. There was an organization called CORE. He became the president of CORE, and so complaining about my situation, he suggested that I apply at the Atomic Energy Commission. And I did. Well, the first answer, they said they didn’t have any meaningful work to suit my talents. [LAUGHTER] That’s a way of saying go fly a kite. But after a year, complete—a whole year had passed by, I received a letter from the personnel at the Atomic Energy Commission here at Hanford, asking if I was still interested in a position there. And I just jumped for joy. In the first place, I got paid more money and they didn’t have the same level of—I didn’t have anybody trying to beat me down, trying to bend me over, trying to force me to do something to give them an excuse to fire me. Franklin: That’s what your boss at the forest service would try to do? Slaughter: Yeah, Melanie. Yeah, he was. So, I couldn’t figure out a way to kill him. So I just—I just lived with it. He was this—the headquarters for Snoqualmie National Forest was on 2nd Avenue in Seattle. So I’d have to live—where we lived out in the woods, and, let’s see. I don’t know if I’m telling this in the right sequence or not, but the point is that he tried to—Melanie tried to convince the people to fire me because I didn’t know what I was doing. He wouldn’t give me credit for knowing anything. And it did rattle me quite a bit, but they wouldn’t fire me. Snoqualmie—the government would not fire me. Come to find out, Melanie, he was a guy from close to my hometown, Chattanooga, Tennessee. He used to relate some areas that I knew about. Anyway, after I went for the interview, and of course, I had to wait a long time because it was working for the Atomic Energy Commission, you had to have a security clearance. That was no problem. But when they hired me, they gave me the dates and the money that I’d make and what-have-you. And I had a problem of trying to find a place for my family. So by this time, Herb Jones, he was head of CORE in Richland, Washington. So they put me up for a couple of nights while I looked for a place for my family. I heard them talking. They had meetings all the time. I heard them talking, saying, well, we’ve got to find somebody who’ll go move over into Kennewick. And voila. I’ll go! [LAUGHTER] Seriously. I said, I will. Well, they found us—they located a situation where a man school teacher was—he was having problems with his superiors and what-have-you. I don’t know whether he did it to be vindictive or not, but I got with this man who was going to move out of the area anyway. So I signed a lease, six-month lease for his house on W 6th Avenue, pretty close to 395. I started hearing all the rumors and all of the forebodings from people, saying, be careful. So what I did—I’ma tell you the truth. I had a station wagon, and so when I moved in, moved into that house—it was a nice house—I systematically brought stuff out of my station wagon and put it in the house. And the last thing I did that night, I brought my—I had a target pistol, a .22. But also, some of the activities that I engaged in when I was living at the ranger station was go hunting and fishing. I had to learn to hunt and fish if I was going to be a part of that society. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: And I did. And I shot—the first time I went hunting, I shot a deer. So I had a rifle, a .30-06 rifle. I made sure that the whole neighborhood saw me bring my rifle into the house. Because I had been conditioned that I’m not going to take too much of this. So I was conditioned to that. Whenever I needed to. It just so happens—I don’t know, I’m pretty sure nobody was afraid of me—but I wanted to let people know my disposition. I was for real. And I said, anybody walk up on this—you just walk up on this lawn, I’m going to shoot him. Well, nobody walked up on the lawn. There were a lot of whispering around in the neighborhood, what-have-you. And this one lady, I think it’s this lady who lives here now. She had two daughters, but she didn’t want her daughters to get to know my daughter. So, we did like I always do. I just treat them like they’re not even around. See, one thing I learned, people cannot stand to be ignored. If you ignore—that’s how you get to people. So, if I transacted my business just as if I was the only person in Kennewick. But suddenly, there was an outpouring of welcome to me. The ministers, I got invited to a lot of churches, I got invited to different civic organizations and I was a Kennewick Jaycee. I remember that. And of course there was the other kind, too, because I was just leasing that house. And I’ll skip the part where I moved out of that man’s house and into a duplex in Richland. I stayed there one year, and decided that, well, I needed to have a house. So, I got enough money for a down payment. It was at 7404 W Yellowstone. It wasn’t actually in the City of Kennewick, but it was close enough for the purpose. There was a vacant lot next to lot that that house was on that I was trying to buy. Because I wanted to build a bigger house. And they had for sale signs on that lot. I went to the appropriate place to find out who owned it, and I wanted to buy it. He says—I told him who I was. And he said, I know who you are, John Slaughter, but I’m not going to sell you my lot. And he did not. So I just lived in that house until—well, I stayed there, and I was working, and I was doing very, very, very, very good. I had to prove to myself that I was good enough to be an engineer, because everybody around me did not see me as being qualified to do anything. Franklin: Um—oh, sorry, go ahead. Slaughter: Well, I could go on. Oh! When the time came to close on the house—and I’m there right now, we’re about to close on the house that I own. [LAUGHTER] That’s why I’m here. We got together on a whole lot of paper and what-have-you. And a document fell out of the bundle of papers that the guy had. It was a—I don’t know what they call it, a promise that you would not sell to a black person. I actually saw that, that was in that. But the one guy, they had been talking, he said, throw it away. So they picked it up. But they couldn’t get it up fast enough for me so that I could not see what that was. That was a covenant. I actually picked up that covenant and gave it back to him. That you don’t—and I was able to buy the—Incidentally, probably the reason it was so easy for me was that was during the time that the federal government was cracking down on these kind of covenants. Franklin: Oh. Do you remember around what year that was? Slaughter: 1965. Franklin: 1965. Why do you think the realtor was so willing to break the covenant? Slaughter: Because— [ALARM SOUNDING] Franklin: Oh, my goodness. [VIDEO CUTS] Slaughter: --where we were living. That’s how we got along. Maybe when people saw my weapons, they decided they wouldn’t raise any [inaudible]. I didn’t have any problem. Everybody got to know me, John Slaughter, just like I was some celebrity or something. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Slaughter: Really! And I was so proud to be a part of that civic organization, the Kennewick Jaycees. That we would, during Christmas, the Christmas holidays, we’d do some projects to make money to help some of the people who was not as well-off as we were. There were several incidences where you’d see my picture in the paper for what we were doing. I can remember that year, it was close to Christmastime, a little blonde girl, I picked her up and playing with her, and she got snot all over my face. I still remember that. But that didn’t matter. That was something that I really felt that I was part of, and everybody around had made me feel that I’m part of the society. And so that’s, that’s basically, in a nutshell, that’s basically how I got to where I am. Franklin: Okay. I’d like to back up a little bit and ask you when and where you were born. Slaughter: July the 30th, 1932. I was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Franklin: And did you grow up at in Chattanooga? Slaughter: Absolutely. Yes. Franklin: And was Chattanooga an officially segregated town? Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, what your life was like growing up with segregation. Slaughter: Okay. We had our neighborhoods and they had their neighborhoods. To the extents possible, we avoided each other. Because most of the—99% of the black people had absolutely nothing, but they had quite a few white people who were in the same boat that we were in. [LAUGHTER] I still remember, as a little kid, when the railroad—when the train would come by, some of the young men would climb up on there and throw coal off the—onto the ground. And those of us on the ground, would pick it up and take that coal to our houses. [LAUGHTER] And that is true. That is true. I still remember that. Franklin: Wow, hard times, huh? Slaughter: Well, ’32—I was born in ’32, that was the worst economic [unknown] that this country’s ever had. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: I was born right in the middle of that. Franklin: Yeah! And you went to segregated schools? Slaughter: Went to segregated school. I’ll tell you that we didn’t have any school buses. There were school buses around, but none for us. We’d have to sit in the back of the bus. Just like—you know. You’ve heard all of that. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: And it got to the point, sometimes I’d figure on doing something to get something started. Because I decided that I was not going to be a second-class citizen. And I had to pay by tokens to ride the bus. And I just got to the point where I don’t feel like getting up today. I never got up. And he stopped the bus. He said, boy, get to the back of the bus. I told him, you put me back there. I have some of my little knives someplace. I had a knife about that long, about that big. Just as soon as the white boys decided they were going to make me go to the back of the bus, I got out my knife and started trimming my fingernails. They knew what that meant. Nobody said a thing to me. This is before Rosa Parks did that. She was a matronly lady, and she was nice and kindhearted and what-have-you. I was just a guy who decided that today I’m going to raise hell. Franklin: How old were you when this happened? Slaughter: I was in high school. Franklin: Okay. And the white people that were accosting you, were they around your same age? Slaughter: This was just a regular bus system. They didn’t have—not for black people, they didn’t have school buses. Oh. I went to Orchard Knob School, which is a monumental place, kind of a park. It was a park. If you go down South where the Civil War was fought, you can see all the statues and names and what-have-you, like that. Camera operator: Can we pause here? My card says it’s full. Franklin: Oh, sure. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: Are we ready? Camera operator: Yup. Franklin: Okay. So you were talking about going down to the park where they had Civil War monuments or something? Slaughter: Oh, yeah. Called the Battle of Orchard Knob. It’s on a big hill and adjacent, across the street, was the school that I went to through the ninth grade. Then after that, that’s when we’d have to ride the bus across town to go to high school. We had to ride right by city—I don’t know, it was Chattanooga’s City High School. Right by, we’d have to ride the bus to be on the other side of town where our high school was. You probably heard of the situation where I still got the same new book that I was given in the ninth grade, and that book was the one where we learned first aid by the Red Cross. I still got that book. That was the first new book I ever had. Franklin: New book, as in, the books in school previously would’ve been— Slaughter: They’d been used and torn up and then they ship them to us. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: They’d buy some more books, but they wouldn’t give us the new books. Franklin: Right, the new books would go to the white schools and then the black schools would get the older textbooks. Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you had graduated from Tennessee State University. Slaughter: Mm-hmm. Franklin: What made you want to go to college, and what did you get your degree in? Slaughter: I was the only person in my family who finished high school. Franklin: Wow. Slaughter: And I had enough inner change—or I want to say, moxie, I might say, that people start thinking, boy, he’s smart, boy, he’s smart. With them saying that I’ve got the intelligence to go farther. So I decided that—oh. I sang in the glee club, in my high school glee club. Some people thought I had a fair enough voice. In fact, the music teacher, after I graduated from—just before graduating from high school, the ceremony and all, she gave me a $50 check. That was a scholarship. That was the only scholarship I ever had. And I had to take it back to her and tell her, I can’t go—give this to somebody who’s going to go to college. Then after the graduation, just immediately after graduation, I received my letter from the United States government saying I had been selected. [LAUGHTER] So I was drafted. Robert Franklin: And that was—the Korean War was going on at the time, right? Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: And how long did you stay in the Army for? Slaughter: Those two years. I’ll tell you now, that’s the interesting thing, because you’re looking at a man who—I loved those military parades. I thought that was entertainment for me to—I enjoyed it. But I tell you one other thing, when we got—a bunch of us trainees got there at the same time to set up battalion headquarters and what-have-you, I was assigned to be a supply specialist, to take care of all the property that the government had given us. And so things were going fine. Of course, I didn’t know a whole lot about that, either, but that’s what—I went to supply specialist training school. When those guys—we called them boy wonders, the National Guardians—when that outfit—there was an outfit of guys who hadn’t had basic training like I had, but they had National Guard. They put a corporal in my place, and he didn’t know anything about being a soldier, either. He just had that uniform on. At any rate, we were put into details to be taken down to Taegu Air Base. We had to camouflage the facilities, just in case they attacked us. And we did have a great number of times when we thought that we were going to be attacked. But I never had to fight; I never had to shoot a bullet, except at the target. Oh, after so long a time in Korea, my outfit, the whole battalion—oh, I’m trying to tell it in sequence and I’m getting it all screwed up. Franklin: It’s okay. Slaughter: But there were a bunch of us assigned to go and camouflage tanks on the airport base. Well, that didn’t sit well with me. It was hot as all get-out there in Korea. And so a bunch of us, we’d go down further where the civilization was, where they had day rooms and they had decent living conditions and what-have-you. We’d get up 5:00 in the morning and be shipped down there, and then just as soon as they left, we’d go to the place and shoot pool and do stuff. [LAUGHTER] And I remember, the one time, I sat there in the chair, I must have lost at pool. But I fell asleep. And I heard somebody, all of the sudden, Slaughter! Slaughter! Woke me up, my first sergeant was right between my legs. What the hell are you doing in here? Mixing. To shorten it, we were done busted. I got an Article 15. Are you familiar with an Article 15? That’s like going to court and having a trial and mete out the punishment. Well, my punishment—and this is the company commander, he was a first lieutenant. He said, is there anything else you want to say before I employ the sentence? I said, no, sir, but yes. I said, I came on this job and I was doing a good—I was having—I was doing the work well, satisfied—suddenly, when those cowboys came in, you took all the authority and interest away from us, and you put them in there. I told him, I’m a little mad, and I don’t plan to be out working out there in the sun. So, if I got to go back out there, you’re going to find me doing the same thing. This was a man from Massachusetts. He didn’t have any interest in trying to be hard on anybody. So he said, okay. So I was sentenced to seven days of extra duty in the kitchen. So I did that standing on my head. In fact, we would look forward to getting where the officers had all the little steaks and things, we just cooked our own food—[LAUGHTER] So I’d look forward to that, every night. Let’s go, let’s go to work. [LAUGHTER] But after that time was over, by the time I’d fulfilled my requirement, we had our orders. We were going to leave and go to Guam. So they needed somebody to be in charge of all of the goods and what-have-you. So they assigned me to be in charge of that. And I’m strolling around there with my clipboard, seeing all this stuff. I was quite proud. They gave me some responsibility, and I was quite proud to be able to do it the best I could. And nobody ever said anything anymore about it. Except if it was justified. But when I got to Guam—I don’t know if you guys know anything about Guam. That’s the South Seas—one of a string of islands called the Marianas Islands. I’m told that that was—and it was a B-29 air base. I’m told that it was from that place that the atom bomb was loaded and sent to Japan to be—I don’t know if that’s the truth or not. Franklin: I think it was Tinian Island, was the island. Right? Yeah, Tinian. A different island in the South Seas. Slaughter: Well, Tinian, it was one of the string—it was part of the Marianas Islands, though. Franklin: Right. So jumping forward a bit, you went to Tennessee, Tennessee State University. Slaughter: Oh. I was one of the few people who were married in my outfit. So when payday came, I’d take my money, and I’d send it home to my wife, until I had enough to—you know, a fair amount of money. That, along with the GI Bill, that’s what I used in order to go to college. Franklin: And what did you get your degree in? Slaughter: Civil engineering. Franklin: Oh, civil engineering, okay. And how did you hear about this job in Snoqualmie? And why did you apply to go to Washington, so far away from Tennessee? Slaughter: Because they had fliers out. You could look on the bulletin board and see who needs who to go where. And I flunked one course in college. That was my first quarter of calculus. I still don’t know calculus. [LAUGHTER] Dang, I lost my train of thought. Oh. Oh, all the people in my class, they were getting ready to go. They were filling out applications, and I’m one quarter behind, but I just couldn’t stand it any longer, because I was the only person who had so many kids at home. I needed a job. So I filled out the application, too. Four applications. I received copies of three of them; they wanted to hire me. And then I had to tell them I won’t be eligible until the summer of 1960. They wrote me another telegram, we’ll hold the job for you. Franklin: Wow. Slaughter: This is a part of the move to integrate black people and white people in the service. If Kennedy had not taken it upon himself to go personally down to the South to see what the conditions were, we’d probably still be sitting in the back of the bus. Kennedy is the one who built a fire under people. And Johnson, now, he was a southerner. But he was an aristocrat. He didn’t know what the little bitty people were doing, either. So when Kennedy got shot, Johnson took over, he looked for himself what Kennedy was doing, and he just carried it on forward. And I remember reading the paper—one of the papers, big headlines, Johnson, That Son of a Bitch. Because he had been in—he was one of the good ol’ boys before, but he saw how awful it was that black people had to live. And he carried on Kennedy’s interest in integrating the whole thing. Franklin: When you started on at Hanford, what was your first position? Slaughter: I was an engineer. Franklin: And what were you doing there? Slaughter: Construction engineer. Oh, I did a little—I had done a little bit of surveying. That’s what I did when I was working for the National Forest, surveying and designing roads and bridge approaches, that kind of a thing. So I got to the point where my qualities were well-respected. In fact, when they saw how some of my performance—I skipped a grade— Franklin: In the Forest Service? Slaughter: No, no, Atomic Energy Commission. Franklin: Oh, at the Atomic Energy Commission. Slaughter: I’ve told this story to a whole lot of people, and I will never fail to tell how those guys took me under their arms—under their wings, and they trained me how to be an engineer. Franklin: Who was that? Slaughter: The people at the Atomic Energy Commission. I learned a lot, you’d just be surprised. You’ve been hearing here lately about the leaking field tanks—the leaking waste tanks. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: Well, I managed the contracts. Some of those very tanks—we had a lot, a lot of tanks—but this was a new kind of tank. This was a tank-on-tank situation. Not only that—what do they call that? I can’t think of the name of it now. Stress relief, those tanks. Are you familiar with stress relieving? Franklin: Kind of. There was so much pressure in them, right, from the heat and the radionuclides— Slaughter: So much pressure, it created stress in the corners. And so therefore, it started to corrode—erode quite a bit. So in order for it to last a long time, you bend the tanks—the steel a certain way. Then, you weld all those welds—10,000 welds per tank. And then to stress relieve it, there’s one bit of knowledge that you need to know. Carbon steel will fold and fall down after 1,250 degrees Fahrenheit. I want you to imagine having to try to stress relieve every bit of a million-gallon tank. And it has to be—it can’t be a whole lot of stress here, and then—it had to be uniform. And that was a job that I had. I used to stay up all night trying to get them to be just as hot in one place as it was in the other. I think we had to be within 250 degrees all the way through. And I learned to stress relieve—see, I learned this on the job. And also, it had to be radiographed. Each foot— [POUNDING ON DOOR] Slaughter: Come in. [Woman off-camera]: John, are you coming down for lunch? Slaughter: Huh? [Woman off-camera]: Are you coming down for lunch? Slaughter: Not right now. [Woman off-camera]: Okay. Okay, sorry. Slaughter: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Okay, that’s another one that I’m going to be friends with, I think. I don’t know why she came in and asked me if I was coming in for lunch. I don’t know what she wanted. Franklin: You were talking about the stresses, if you will, of trying to stress relieve these things. Slaughter: Oh, yes, and I learned how to rig—I didn’t have to do any of it myself, but I learned how under the guy—he was the main inspector. I did the management and all that stuff, but this man, he knew what he was doing, and he taught me everything—well, I don’t know if it was everything he knew, but he taught me a considerable amount. I learned how to look at the radiograph to see if it’s—if you got any bubbles in it—it has to be good, welded steel all the way through, all the way. And 10,000 welds per tank. And I learned how to do that, and they even tried to—well, it was just marvelous that I learned the technology, and here I am with a degree in civil engineering. But I had more knowledge than most of the people around that. Because Don, was his first name, he taught me everything he knew. And I was so grateful. I’ll tell you, this was kind of related to what you want, but at Savannah River, you know they’ve got a nuclear reservation there, too. They had a different design than what we used. So we had a delegation of top engineers from here, we went to Savannah River, that’s in South Carolina, in order to see what they’re doing and how theirs is different from ours and try to figure out the ramifications. And I remember Babcock and Wilcox—that’s a firm that makes asbestos. Asbestos, you know, is dangerous. But we didn’t recognize that danger then. So what we would do, build the tank and then pour asbestos about that thick into the inside of the tank. Whereas, you have all the way around the tank, you’ve got a crawlspace about that wide. And we had all kinds of pipes and different things coming up. So they used those holes, different holes in the top. Yeah, it’d be about—I can’t explain it to you. But I remember going to—it was time to go to lunch, and this man, he was kind of a high executive with the Babcock and Wilcox Company. So that’s where I got my first look at Augusta, Georgia. It was Augusta where they took us to the Green Jacket. Now those guys, usually, they respected me and my position to the extent that they didn’t want me to be rejected. And I remember, since I was with the government and all these other guys were contractor guys, so that made me boss. [LAUGHTER] The only guy—they knew so much more than I did, I couldn’t even attempt it. But they made me boss, so the man opened the door to the Green Jacket. Now, you’re familiar with the Green Jacket? Franklin: I’m not. Slaughter: Okay. Augusta? Master’s Golf? Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: That’s where the Master’s are done. In August, Georgia. And I remember them opening the door for me and showing me a place to sit. And I looked around and all the black heads peeking from around the corners and what-have-you. They thought that was the greatest thing in the whole world, seeing a man being treated with dignity. And that never left me. That’s why I made it my business—I’m going to be a first-class citizen. It may only be for an hour, but that hour is going to be with dignity. And I did. And I’ve been trying to pull everybody else around up with me, and I think we’ve done very well. Franklin: Yeah. Did you work with any other black engineers at Hanford? Slaughter: No. No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t. Franklin: You’ve mentioned that you were, to your knowledge, the first black person to own a home— Slaughter: In Kennewick. Franklin: In Kennewick, yes. Over time, did other black families start moving to Kennewick? Slaughter: Yes. Franklin: Was there a community and there, and were you instrumental in—or were you part of that community? Slaughter: Yeah. Herb Jones, he’s the one—after I had done—he decided he was going to buy a house, too, down there, by—well, I don’t know where it was, I’ve forgotten where it was. But somebody did something to their car. Had a relative with a brand new Ford, I remember. Something happened to it. But nothing ever happened to me like that. Franklin: It was like vandalized or something like that? Slaughter: Huh? Franklin: Their car was vandalized or something like that? Slaughter: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t terrible. You could wash—could give it a paint job, and you’d be good as new. Franklin: Where was the center of the black community in the Tri-Cities? Was there kind of a community in each city, or was east Pasco the focal point? Slaughter: East Pasco. Franklin: And did you go to east Pasco often; did you have any friends in the area? Slaughter: I tried, but—it’s kind of hard to—some of them, it’s kind of hard to get along with them. Franklin: Why was that? Slaughter: I don’t know. I think it’s upmanship, you might say. They even—I noticed that they stopped now, I mean, I guess they did. They tried to circulate the fact that I was not the first black person to live in Kennewick. One of them did it. And that wasn’t my purpose. Franklin: You were just trying to have some dignity, right, some respect and live where you wanted to live? Slaughter: Oh, yeah. My wife, bless her heart—people just—oh, that’s another thing. I learned how to talk a little bit better—a little bit different than being a Southerner. My wife never—she never lifted one eyelid to change how she talks. And the people who befriended her, they just—it was refreshing. See, even the bigshots’ wives, they’d get sick of people scraping and bowing to them. Well, my wife didn’t do that. And they liked her because of it. Franklin: Were you ever—how were you treated on the job at Hanford? Did your racial background ever figure into any mistreatment at Hanford? Slaughter: No, it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t. I had my run-in, but it wasn’t because of race. I know what it was. It stemmed back—remember way back then, when I was being an engineer in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and I decided that when I retire, where do I want to live? And so I decided that I wanted to come back here and live. People ask me, why? Because I love the people. The people just opened their doors to me, and I appreciate it. Franklin: Besides moving to Kennewick in ’65, and really, I think kind of participating in Civil Rights in that way, did you participate in any other civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? Slaughter: Yeah, I remember when things were really hot and heavy and the pot was starting to boil over with anger and all. There were a number of us who did not, for some reason—I didn’t hear—nobody did anything to me. Gus Wiley, he used to be the head of Battelle there. Nothing happened to him. And there was a bunch of us. I just named the two, because Gus and I were—we decided to put a stop—to pour some water on this heat, this boiling over. So we decided we’d follow the police around, so whenever they had an encounter, we could see with our own eyes who’s starting the unrest. Because they were just accusing one another. I for one, I’ll die for my cause, but I’m not going to die for somebody else’s cause, see. Gus and I—it just happens that he and I hooked up together. We followed—and we just kind of made the police kind of nervous. Until somebody started some dialogue with the windows down, and we’d talk with one another, the police and us. And after—it didn’t take long for them to see that we weren’t—we were doing what we can to keep a riot from happening. We’re not trying to help one side or the other, but I know somebody’s lying. So before I put my head on the chopping block, I’m going to find out why I’m putting it on there. That was all of our intentions. Once they found out that all we’re trying to do is keep the peace, actually, they just kind of helped us keep the peace. Franklin: What cities were you doing this in? Slaughter: Pasco. Franklin: Pasco. And what were your findings? Slaughter: I didn’t see anybody do anything. Nobody broke the law or anything. And I came home just as satisfied. I don’t look for trouble. I’m trying to prevent any trouble. But there were some hotheads over on the other side, in Pasco. They were fomenting unrest. They were trying to stir up some things that we were trying to undo. Franklin: When you say hotheads, do you mean— Slaughter: People out—black people. Trying to raise hell. And we met with those people to tell them, I’m not going to stick my neck out for you. You’re trying to—a risk is what you’re trying to do. Nothing ever—all that time we were—it lasted for several days. And all that time, when we were doing that, nothing ever happened. Nothing. Good or bad. Nothing ever happened. Franklin: Why do you think they were trying to stir up trouble, in your opinion? Slaughter: Well, hell-raisers will do it. You don’t have to have a reason. You don’t have to have a reason. They want to get a job that they’re not qualified for, for example. They want to be thought of as being the biggie. It’s pride—false pride. And we were not interested in that. Anytime somebody let me participate in something with the credentials that Gus Wiley had, I’m more than satisfied. Not Gus Wiley—Gus, that’s his wife. [LAUGHTER] I can’t think of his name right now. Franklin: I can’t think of his first name right now, either. Tom Hungate: Bill. Slaughter: Bill. Franklin: Bill Wiley. Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: Right, yeah. Head of PNNL. I’ve heard there were some protests in Pasco in, I think, ’67, around there. Did you participate, or hear, or do you have any memories of those protests? Slaughter: No. Franklin: No, okay. Slaughter: I know there might have been some people who were trying to stir up stuff, and I just ignored them. Franklin: My last questions are kind of like closing, open-ended questions. In what ways, if any, did the security or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Slaughter: It didn’t. Franklin: It didn’t? Were you able to talk about what you worked on with your family and friends? Slaughter: No, I made it a policy to not—there were times when I needed to get some information, I would read a document—a confidential or secret document. But that was just incidental to my work. My work had nothing to do with that problem. Franklin: Oh, okay. How long did you work at Hanford for? Slaughter: Let’s see. I came to Hanford in 1965, and ’73, I went back to Oak Ridge for the purpose of trying to move up the ladder. Didn’t work, but it didn’t hurt, either. So after I’d gone at work at Oak Ridge another eight years, I decided to try to figure out, where should I go. And believe it or not, my home town is exactly 100 miles from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. But that’s not where I wanted to live. I liked the small town air here. And so that’s why I wanted to come back here to live. And the rest is history. Franklin: Yes, it is. Speaking of history, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Slaughter: That’s a biggie. [LAUGHTER] That’s a biggie. I’ve learned—I don’t know. I just don’t know. One thing that I do know that I used to love going, certain parts of the year, the eagles would land in what used to be Hanford. I’d go down there and look at the eagles. I don’t know of anything else. Franklin: Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration and segregation and civil rights in the Tri-Cities? Slaughter: You know, I mentioned before, some people thought I had a nice singing voice. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: I especially, that church I started going to. Incidentally, I’m still going to that same church, but it’s got a different name and it’s a much, much bigger church. I’m still—I’ve been instrumental in—okay, the pastor we have now, I was instrumental in getting him to be at our church. I got guided to the committee, the pastor search committee. In the beginning, I wasn’t part of it. But it was an older man. They tried to represent older people, younger people—different differences. So going through what is kind of—it’s a hard job, trying to decide who was best suited to be my pastor. That’s not an easy job. Anyway, the guy who was supposed to represent the older people, he backed off. So they asked me to be part of it, and I did. And we—if you go to hear a sermon of our priest, you know that it was a success. I had something to do with his being there. That’s because I just went up to him and asked him, how come you don’t fill in an application? And he said, oh, what’s-his-name is my friend. I said, that has nothing to do with being your friend. I talked him into being interested in being our pastor. Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: Just edit that out, all right? Franklin: Sure, sure. Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Slaughter: Well, there’s so much that I’ve forgotten. I hee-hawed all the way through this thing. Franklin: No, you’re great. We’re really happy to get what you have, and what you told us is really great. Some really great history there. So thank you for letting us interview you. Slaughter: Well, thank you. This makes about the third interview that I’ve had concerning Civil Rights, et cetera. Franklin: I’ll have to look for those other two. Slaughter: Well, only one had all this stuff. Franklin: Okay. Well, great. Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Atomic Energy Commission Battelle Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1965-1973 1982- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-1973 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Slaughter Description An account of the resource John Slaughter moved to Kennewick, Washington in 1965 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1965-1973. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Chattanooga (Tenn.) Pasco (Wash.) Discrimination Civil rights Segregation Korean War, 1950-1953 Civil engineering Civil rights movements Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/28/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5062440c1c96697b8a1cbf306b6b00cf.JPG d6d018dc86ec42219474d096eac81420 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb7e5e93ecb8d86ccc4e43070311b6984.mp4 0e20f9e91d4739df06707ceee0bb1df1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bobby Sparks Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Bobby Sparks on May 8th 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. We’ll be talking with Bobby about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record can you state and spell your full name for us? Bobby Sparks: My name is Bobby, B-O-B-B-Y, Ray, R-A-Y, Sparks, S-P-A-R-K-S. Franklin: Is Bobby your given name? Sparks: Bobby is my given name on my bible. It wasn’t a birth certificate; it was a bible. We recorded all the births on the bible. That’s my given name, yup. Franklin: Okay. They just went straight to Bobby. Sparks: They went straight to Bobby, yup. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Because I’m a Robert. Sparks: They didn’t change to Robert later. They said he’s a Bobby, they left me as a Bobby. Franklin: Right on. So, Bobby, your family migrated here during WWII, right? Or parts from your family migrated here during WWII from Kildare? Sparks: Yeah. Part of them migrated. Actually some of them partially migrated. They was migrant workers, they came up and worked a few months and then they went back to Kildare. That was my grandfather, Connie Davis. He came up during, like you said, in the ‘40s and stuff to work at the B Plant. Franklin: The B Reactor or B Plant? Sparks: He was actually working on building the reactor. He was doing—yeah, the reactor building. Franklin: You said his name was Connie Davis? Sparks: Connie Davis. Franklin: Great. Who else from your family came up? Sparks: Connie Davis, he was the only one that I know of that came up in that generation. He was one of the older ones. My uncles came up later. They might’ve came up in the early ‘50s and stuff, but-- Franklin: Who were they? Sparks: One was Dave Smith. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: James Sparks, and Alford Sparks. Franklin: When did you come? Sparks: I came to the Hanford in 1965. Franklin: 1965. Sparks: I was in the third grade. Franklin: Third grade, okay. When and where were you born? Sparks: I was born in Kildare, Texas in 1955. Franklin: How come your parents moved up here? Sparks: My father was a farmer. We had maybe 60 acres of land. So he farmed the land in Texas, in east Texas, and it was hard work, very hard work. What happened, his teacher, which was Vanis Daniels, moved to the Tri-Cities area. Franklin: His teacher? Sparks: He was one of his instructors, Vanis Daniels. Franklin: Okay. Is that Vanis Daniels, Senior? Sparks: Senior, yeah. He sent a little note back and said, hey, this is not too bad! You guys need to join me in the Hanford Site. That’s how my dad got here. He came up before I did. He came up a year before the family moved, checked it all out and got us a home and then we moved up. Franklin: What else do you know about your dad’s life before you came up here? Sparks: My dad was farmer, like I said, he worked on the farm for years. He went to the military, fought in the war. He was just a hardworking man. What he did, he fed the family by hunting and fishing and gathering. We did a lot of fishing and hunting and raising animals. He built his own house down in Kildare, Texas. Basically, being a father of fourteen children, he didn’t have much time for anything else except for raising the children. Franklin: Wow, so you have thirteen siblings? Sparks: Yeah, I have thirteen siblings. And back in Texas, that was not very unusual, because they basically got married when they was very young, thirteen, fourteen-year-olds and they started having children. Franklin: How old were your parents when they got married? Sparks: My mother, I believe she was like fourteen and my dad, he might have been eighteen. They were very young when they got married. Franklin: What is your mother’s name? Sparks: My mother’s name is Annie May Davis. Franklin: Davis, okay. So Connie Davis, your grandfather, was your mother’s father. Sparks: Mother’s father, yeah. My dad’s father died when he was really young. So, what he did, he actually went up to eighth grade—no, no, it wasn’t even the eighth grade. I think when he was like in the sixth grade, he had to drop out of school and help raise the family. He ended up not only raising his brothers and sisters, but he actually, after they were grown, he raised us, also. Franklin: Tell me about your mom’s life in Texas. What did she do, and her education and things like that. Sparks: My mom, since she got married at a very early age, she dropped out of school when she was like in the eighth grade. Basically her life was, she took care of the family. She cleaned and took care of home, cooked, and just took care of the business around the house. My dad, he worked in the lumberyard, he actually worked on the railroad down in Texas also. And because the hours were so long, she had to take care of the children. The weirdest thing about the house that we were born in, we had no electricity, we had wooden stoves. In order to wash the clothes they had a little creek in the back of the house, and we had to get the water. She was—basically, she didn’t have all the microwaves and the stuff that we have now, so everything that she did, she started cooking in the morning and cooked all day. So that was her job was to-- Franklin: Did the house have running water? Sparks: Didn’t have running water, we actually had a well in the back of the house where she had to go in and pull the water up out of the well. When she washed the clothes, she had a washboard that she would use. It was from the old school, very old school; we had a wooden stove, we had to go gather wood. For Christmas, we’d go out into our property, cut a big tree and make our own decorations and decorate it. The community we lived in, in Kildare was a very—it was a divided community, it was a black community and there was a white community. We were basically self-sufficient. We didn’t mingle very much with the Caucasians. So we kind of had our own little city, our own little things that we did. We canned, we hunted, we gathered; basically took care of each other in the community. It was kind of old school. If your house burned, we’d go over and help you build your house back up. If I start rambling too much, let me know. Franklin: No, no. It’s really important to kind of set the stage from where—how life was there and why so many people left. What do you know about your parents’ initial experience of coming to work at Hanford and finding a place to live? Sparks: As far as my mother, when they initially got here, there was this placed called the Navy Homes, Navy Homes in Pasco; that’s where a lot of the people moved into. You have thirteen, fourteen sisters and brothers, where do you live in? You go over to the military base and they had houses built in like A-frame homes that we lived in. So they had no issues finding a place to live. My dad, because he was a laborer, it was easy for him to find work in the Hanford Site. Because they were looking for—it was a big demand for hard workers, and my dad was a very hard worker. So he actually got into pouring concrete. Once they got here, their whole social life was around their community, the black people. They didn’t mingle much with the Caucasians. Franklin: Okay, but they also—at that point, there was a pretty large amount of people from Kildare that had moved, that your parents were either related to or knew pretty well, right? Because you would’ve been related either by marriage or by blood either to the Daniels and the Mitchells and the Browns and that big network. Sparks: We have a huge, huge extended family. The Miles, the Davises. The community, when we get together at Kurtzman Park, I mean, it was like a family reunion. Everybody was there. So they had a great networking of friends that they ran around with. Franklin: How old were you, you said you came in ‘65? Sparks: I was in the third grade. Franklin: Third grade. Sparks: Third grade when I came. I went to Longfellow Elementary School. Franklin: When you came, what were your first impressions when you arrived? Sparks: Because we didn’t have all the convenience, it was like it was the greatest place I’ve ever seen in my life. I can actually remember traveling up from Kildare in the station wagon with my uncle. And I remember driving into a restaurant and going in like an Arctic Circle, and having my first ice cream cone at the Arctic Circle. It was like, hey, this is the greatest thing in the world. And to get here, walk into the house and hit a light switch and the lights come on, we didn’t have the kerosene lights. It was actually great to me, I thought we was living the best life in the world, from what we came from to what we had here in the state of Washington. Franklin: Wow. How long did you stay at the Navy Homes? It wasn’t your permanent residence? Sparks: We actually stayed at the Navy Homes, we stayed there until I was, I think I was in junior high school. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: Is when my dad finally bought a house on Elm Street in Pasco, in east Pasco, mm-hm. Franklin: What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Sparks: As a kid, you don’t notice things. My mom and dad, like I said, they took care of us. We went to school, we came home. Because my dad was into spending a lot of time with his kids, we did a lot of fishing, a lot of hunting, a lot of gardening. We weren’t able, when I was in elementary school, to go play AAU baseball and all that stuff. So we weren’t mingling very much in the community, because we stayed to ourselves, because we were from Texas. When you’re from Texas, you kind of know what to do and what not to do, what you can get away with, and what you cannot get away with. We had learnt that at a very young age. As far as elementary school, not an issue. Now when you start growing up a little bit and you get into junior high school and you start mingling, and kids are not very kind. They’re not, they’re very hard. I remember when I got in junior high—it was actually in my sixth grade in elementary school, because I had a Southern accent, very, very strong Southern accent, and I would say yes, ma’am, and no, ma’am. I was in a class with kids who didn’t talk like that. So right away they started criticizing. You can’t talk that way, that’s the way slaves used to talk. We don’t say yes ma’am or no ma’am; we say no. Even this older lady pulled me aside one time—I used to mow her lawns—and she said, no, we don’t talk like that. They made us do that in Texas. Don’t call me yes, sir and no, sir. Things like that we had to deal with. Another thing that they did, when I noticed what was going on, the first class they put me in, they put me in a special ed. Class. Because I was Southern, they mistake the Southern accent for I had a learning disability. In that class, it turned out, they had all the other kids that were like the really bad actors, and so we were all in the same class. When you get in that class, like in the sixth and fifth grade, they normally take you all through that system in that class, special ed. type of class. What happened was, I had a teacher, his name was Ted Ogata, and Mr. Ogata, he pulled me aside and said, Bobby, you’re like in fifth or sixth grade now. He said, if you don’t get your act together, you’re going to be in this class for the rest of your life. And in that class you actually had a different lunches, you rode in a different bus to school--I mean, it was really isolated. Mr. Ogata kind of became my mentor. He worked with me, took me to his home, and he was able to switch me from, at the time I was like a D to F student, flunking out of school. Within a year, I was able to increase my grades up to—when I got in junior high, they started putting me in honor classes, because I had one person that stepped in and influenced me. Franklin: Did your parents ever talk about their adjustment here, and what their initial thoughts were or how they adjusted from Texas to the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Like I said, my mother, she worked in the home. And because they were from Texas, they knew, they were very polite. They didn’t have many experience, like when my dad would come home and say this man called me out of my name. Because my dad was a big man, I mean, he had arms like this, so not very many people wanted to cross my dad. My mother, she was the most loving lady you ever seen in your life. So when you’re nice, and kind, and loving, it’s kind of hard for people to treat you bad. She was the kind of person, she treated her enemies like she wanted to be treated. They kind of, what went around came around. Since she was nice, they kind of treated her nice. I never remember my mother sit back and say, this person spit on my face, this person closed the door on my face, I couldn’t go into this restaurant because there was a sign. They never shared that with us. They kind of sheltered us from that. Franklin: What about culturally? Was it a tough adjustment for your parents to leave the family and friends, and kind of culture of Texas and come to an environment where things were—because Texas, segregation had been on the books and it had been upfront. In the North, it had existed but it was more subtle. Sparks: It was very subtle up North. And because my dad, when he came here, he didn’t experience the true issues that came with segregation. When he came here, he was in demand, we need workers. So there was a demand for laborers; he could get a job. Housing at that time was booming, and there was a community that he could move into to get a home. So he didn’t have those kinds of issues when he got here. His mother was already here also. She had a home, my uncles had a home. The east Pasco neighborhood was our neighborhood. And that community, it was houses, it was stores, it was restaurants, they even had a placed called a cotch ball, that’s where, if they wanted to go out to the casinos late at night, they had their own little casinos where they could hang out and drink. Franklin: What was it called? Sparks: Call it cotch ball. Franklin: Can you spell that? Sparks: Cotch. Spelled it just like a cotch. I can’t spell it, but they just called it a cotch ball. Like a couch. Like-- Franklin: Oh, I got you. Sparks: And actually, these little places boomed up in east Pasco. When all the other bars and things closed, the Hanford workers would come out late at night and they could gamble and hang out at the cotch ball and have dinner and all kind of other activities went on at the cotch balls. They had their own community. Because my dad was used to that isolation in Texas, he would go and work at the Hanford Site, but all of his social life was in that little community that we had there. That’s why, like I said, my dad, he never talked about it, my mom didn’t talk about it very often. Because my mom, taking care of the house, the only time she experienced stuff is when she went shopping. And even then, because she is a very quiet woman, she didn’t share those dramatic stories with her kids. Franklin: Sure. How would you describe life in the community, east Pasco? Sparks: It was—when you’re poor and everybody else around you is poor, it was bliss. We hadn’t been exposed to people that was very affluent and had the beautiful homes and stuff because we stayed to ourselves. I mean, I would get up and go to school, and hang out with all my buddies all day, just a normal life for us. The only time we started seeing issues is when we started becoming more aware of ourselves and what was happening in the community. When you get a little older in junior high, and high school and you go to college, and then you see that culture shock between what you got and what others got. And then you start mingling with people from all over the state, from the Seattle area, Spokane area, and then you start seeing the chaotic, the racism and stuff that was going on. But as a kid coming up, until I was in probably ninth grade, everything was—to me was—I had no issues. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Sparks: As a kid, like I said, my dad—we spent a lot time with my dad fishing in Eagle Lake and Moses Lake, and all over the state fishing and hunting, working in the garden. My dad, he was like, he brought up all of his Southern crops up here with him, the okra, the black-eyed peas, the cotter peas. And what he did was, he had a five-acre lot of land, and what he would do, he would farm that lot of land and people would come from all over the state to get his crops. He actually had a huge pig pen and we had pigs and cows and stuff. My normal day would be getting up at like 5:00, going out with my dad, working in the farm. Then after I worked in the farm, we’d come home. My mom would always have a big breakfast with biscuits, and gravy, and ham. We would have a huge breakfast, and then we would go to school. Go to school all day, get off of school like at three, we would come home and my dad would always have chores for us to do. You create stuff. He’d say, son, go pull out those nails out of the boards. He’d have big piles of boards. So we couldn’t go out and play until we did our chores. Dad was very strict; it was only one rule: it was his way or the highway. Because he didn’t have time to negotiate with that many kids. He had to have a plan and he stuck to the plan. That’s how we were raised, me and all of my sisters and brothers. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events from when you were a kid? Sparks: Oh, we had so many events. The biggest we had was, we had the Juneteenth. That’s when the whole community got together and we celebrate the freedom of slavery at Texas, because all of us was at Texas. At that time, it was like the whole Kurtzman Park, everybody would show up at the park and we would and we would play baseball and have basketball tournaments, have fashion shows, and have preaching and singing. It was just a huge festival that we did. That was the biggest, is the Juneteenth activities, which we did once a year. But with my family, because we had such a huge family, we had a lot of—both side of my family is huge. So we would always have family reunions and everybody would come from down South, and from California, and we would get together, and just have a great time. Go out and rent a park and take over the whole park, get to know our family that we hadn’t seen for years. Franklin: Right on. Did you attend church? Sparks: Oh, yes, I attended church. Franklin: And what church did you attend? Sparks: All of us that came from Texas, there was a church called Saint John the Baptist Church, that’s in Texas. That’s where I originally started going to church. After we moved to the Tri-Cities, all of my uncles and aunties, and nieces went to New Hope Baptist Church. So our family joined New Hope Missionary Baptist Church, and that’s where we spent a lot of our spare time. They had vacation bible school, they had dinners, so a lot of our social life was centered around the church. Franklin: What role did the church play in the black community? Sparks: Actually, the church, if you go back and look at it, it was one of the things that started the civil rights movement. You look at the fact that God created man and made all of us equal. So then you start looking at a lot of the preachers and stuff in our community. It’s like, hey, we’re second to none. You look at a man based on his character but not by the color of his skin. It was very instrumental, a lot of the meetings, Sister Barton, who is one of the city councilmen in the Tri-Cities, she went to my church. The Mitchells, sister Mitchell, their mom went to our church. So a lot of their training as far as speaking publicly, they developed that skill in the church. And their beliefs that all men are created equal and you should treat everyone like you want to be treated, that basic fact was nurtured in the church, and then it grew out into the rest of the community. Even now, the church is the springboard for what happens in that community over there. Because all the meetings, the influential people that’s into the movement came out of the church. Franklin: Were there any opportunities here that were not available where your parents came from? Sparks: Oh, there were so many opportunities. Because it was such a little country town, didn’t have the colleges, didn’t have the financial support. If I had have stayed in Texas—I got to tell you a story. My dad when he moved here, he came here first and he got set up in homes. What he did, he sent a letter back to my mother and he said it was really tough out here, because he was away from his family. He had left his children. He did like they did at Hanford Site; he actually left his crops in the field, because he had to move up here really quick. And because he had left all of that he went through a state where he was—you can imagine what he went through, leaving all his children. So he went to a state where he was discouraged. He wrote a letter to my mom, and he told my mom, he said, well, I think I’m going to come back, because he missed his children. My sister, Frankie, intercepted that letter and she knew we didn’t have the same opportunities in Texas as we would have here in the state of Washington, as far as education, homes, sending us children to some of the better schools and stuff. She didn’t give that letter to my mom. That’s why we got here, is because she saw that the opportunities here was really great for us. Franklin: Where are you in the sibling order? Sparks: There is fourteen of us and I sit right there in the middle. I am number seven. Franklin: Oh, yeah? What is the range between the oldest and the youngest? Sparks: My oldest sister is like 71, and my youngest sister is like 40, 42. So it was a huge range. So for many years—you asked what did my mother do? She made babies. And that’s a lot of labor, a lot of labor. Franklin: Yes. In what way were opportunities here limited because of segregation and racism? Sparks: Well, it starts back, if you were a black man and came to the Tri-Cities, you joined the labor local. The labor local took basically unskilled workers, and they taught you how to pull a jackhammer, they taught you how to dig holes. Now, it’s been developed a little higher than it was then, more skilled labor. But it was just—basically, the farmers came and they gave them a skill and that’s what they did. Now what has happened since the Labor Hall developed, then with the changes in the society that the labor unions had to start bringing in more blacks into the halls. When you get into the Electricians’, the Pipefitters’ locals, they had to open it up because of the laws had changed. And even in the Hanford Site, for years, they didn’t have blacks that was moving up through the ranks, but with the government organizations, you can’t do that. They actually went out with the equal opportunity employee situation, they started bringing blacks in, making them managers, working in the mail rooms: not just the laborers anymore, they started becoming skilled laborers. With the skilled laborer and the money they were making, now they could afford to send their kids to college. The kid has more time to play sports now, he doesn’t have to work in the orchards with his dad. For my case, what it did for me after opening up and my dad started making money, it allowed me to start doing sports; I didn’t have to get up in the morning and work in the garden and stuff anymore. Because I had been a hard worker my whole life, I was just a natural in sports. Franklin: Makes sense. What schools did you go to? Sparks: I went to Longfellow Elementary School, I went to Captain Grey Elementary, I went to McLoughlin Junior High, and I graduated from Pasco High School in 1974. I got recruited to wrestle at the University of Washington from 1974 to 1980, and I graduated from the University of Washington in 1982. Franklin: What did you get your degree in? Sparks: I got my degree in business economics. Franklin: How did racism or segregation affect your education? Sparks: Like I said, I ran into Mr. Ted Ogata, and one man changed my whole perspective on education. Before then, if I had stayed in the system the way that it was set up, I would not had the opportunity to go to the University of Washington. Because even though you get a certificate through the special programs, you cannot apply for the colleges and stuff. If I had not have had Mr. Ogata, I would not have gotten a scholarship to go to the University of Washington. So it would have affected me. Because I did have someone who believed in me and he saw great things that I could do, he pushed me so I got out of that program. But a lot of my buddies did not get out of it, so it did affect them. It affect their income now, it affect their lifestyle, because they didn’t have the same opportunities and opportunities to advance and go to college. Franklin: Right, they would have been shut out of a lot of-- Sparks: They would’ve been shut out, would’ve been shut out, yeah. Franklin: To an education. Sparks: And me, when I was in the University of Washington, one way it affected me—when I got to U-Dub, I started seeing the culture changes and I started seeing the culture shock, the difference in those that have and those that have not. I remember taking a—I think I was taking a logic class and I was struggling with this class. Oh, I was struggling bad. So I was barely getting a C. So the professor brings me into his office and says, you might as well drop out of school. What are you doing here anyway? You’re not going to graduate with a C. I looked at him and I said, well, I may not graduate, but I’ll tell you what. I said, when I get out of school, I’ll make more money than you are making right now. Because I know how much you’re making, and I can drop out right now and become and electrician and make double what you’re making right now. What I did, I wasn’t a nice guy anymore. You challenge me, then I would fight back. And that was a good thing, because you had to have tough skin to make it through the system. Franklin: Yeah. Could you describe any interactions you or your parents had with other people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Oh, yeah, I had—because I did sports, I interacted with a lot of people from Pasco, Kennewick, Richland, Walla Walla, Wenatchee. I got to meet a lot of different people. Which was probably the best thing that happened to me because I was raised in an isolated community. So basically I had to end up learning how to speak two languages. Speak the language of my community and speak the language in college, you had to be able to relate to a lot of people. You know, it’s not integrated. If it’s segregated, you can’t get that interface, you can’t grow. You don’t feel comfortable. If you don’t feel comfortable around all races, you can’t go work at Pacific National Laboratory, because we got people from all over the country. You got to be able to get along with everyone. Franklin: All over the world, right? Sparks: All over the world. We got them from Japan, we got them from Russia, all over. So that interfacing works to your advantage when you get older. Because now when I interview you, I can speak your language, because I got to sell myself. How can I sell myself if I’m not interfacing with people in the community? So sports helped me a lot in that way. Because I was able to travel all over the United States, even in high school, going to Texas, going to Iowa, Denver, all over the world. I even had an opportunity to go to Japan to mingle with my teammates. We even traveled in a van together from here all the way down to Iowa, circle Oklahoma, go to all the universities, then come back. So we developed a lot of long-lasting friendships. Franklin: So you graduated in ’82? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Then did you come out to work at the Hanford Site? Sparks: Oh, that’s a long story. [LAUGHTER] I graduated ’82. I had a degree in business economics. I went to University of Washington for five years, and I got out, and I said, I got to go make some money now. So my very first job interview, the guy said, you know what? I applied for a bank. Business economics, go to the bank and get a job. We’ll pay you eight bucks an hour to do this and this and this, and then after so many years, you’d be up to so many bucks an hour. So I went back to what I told that college professor. I said, I can make more money as an electrician than I can make working at the bank. So what I did, I applied for the apprenticeship program, IBEW, electrical apprenticeship program. That’s how I got to work at the Hanford Site, as an electrical apprentice. And I guess I’ll go one year back. When I was in college, I had an opportunity to come out here and work as an intern. I worked at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory my sophomore year in college. And it’s the craziest thing. My job was, they put me in an animal research laboratory and they had beagles. And the craziest thing, my job was to smoke the beagles. And when Vanis was telling a story about the beagles, it was like identical to my story. But I did it as a summer intern. So when I started there, I got my feet in the door for PNL, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, so when I came back—which was years later—and applied for a job there, the payroll number that they gave me when I was a kid, I got that same payroll number, which is 35810, to work for the laboratory. So, yeah, I did work at the Hanford Site as an electrician apprentice for four years. When I became a journeyman wireman, I applied for the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, and I actually became an electrician at the laboratory also. Franklin: Where did you work out at the Hanford Site? Sparks: I actually worked throughout the Hanford Site. I worked at the 221-T Plant, I worked at, there was a reactor, I never remember the name of it, but it was out by the river, the deactivated reactor, we did research in there. I worked at the 300 Area, throughout the buildings in the 300 Area, multiple buildings. I worked at FFTF. I worked at—actually, one of the jobs I had was they was going to automate FFTF, and my job was to make the panels that operate the computers and stuff and put those together, the interface panels. Franklin: What on-the-job training did you receive, if any? Sparks: Basically, I took four years on-the-job training as an apprentice. I had a journeyman wireman, and they basically take you from doing absolutely nothing about electricity, then you almost become like a plasma physicist. You know everything about it. Actually, I got to the point where I got challenged and I decided to start my business. So I actually started electrical contracting business along with working at the Hanford Site. Because always—my position was always—I knew if they ever let me go, then I would have my own business to fall back on. Franklin: Good. Sparks: Yeah. Franklin: [YAWN] Sorry, excuse me. Did you acquire any experience or skills on the job that helped you later in life? Sparks: Like I said, the skills that I learned on the job actually led me into become a businessman. I actually opened my own business, electric contracting business. Franklin: What’s that called? Sparks: J and B Sparks Electric. Jevon, my son’s name is Jevon, my daughter’s name is Brittany. So I named it after my son—J and B Sparks Electric. Franklin: Kind of a good coincidence that your last name is Sparks. Sparks: Sparks! Everywhere I go, it’s perfect. Automatic advertisement. That’s the Sparks. Pick that guy up! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you describe a typical workday out on the Site? Sparks: Now? Or when? Franklin: [COUGH] Sorry, excuse me. I have something stuck in my throat. Sparks: Now? Franklin: No, like when you were out on Site as an apprentice when you were working out at Hanford. Sparks: Actually, as an apprentice, I worked at the WPPSS plant. So my typical day at WPPSS plant would—I would come in at work, there was a crew of probably 50 electricians, we’d meet together. They’d have this guy who would be assigned to me, he would be my journeyman wireman. His supervisor would come up and have a plan of a day meeting. At the plan of a day meeting, he’d give us a task to do. Today, we want you guys to go in those manholes—because all around WPPSS there’s manholes—and we want you to take every manhole up, and we want to drill a hole in that manhole and we’re going to have a pipe to come up through it. So my very first job as apprentice—you’ve seen the movie Conan, when he’s walking around—remember that one deal he had a job where he was actually walking around the whale? My first job was like Conan the Barbarian. I’m out there walking with this big old tap, making holes in these big old huge manhole covers. Franklin: Oh, wow. Sparks: So that was my typical day. You go out, you get a job, and a lot of your jobs would last for, you know, six months. So then once you get your job, you can report to your job site and do the work. Yeah. Franklin: What do you recall about working at B Reactor or any of the other buildings and structures still present on the Site today? Sparks: What I recall is—I was from University of Washington. So I’m coming from a college that’s got 40,000 people or more. Big, huge structures and libraries and stuff all the way, all around the place. So my very first thing, driving up to that reactor, it’s like somebody dropped a nuclear bomb on it. This whole area was just—nothing was there. Nothing but desert and weeds, and I’m thinking, oh, man, what happened here? How did I—I died and went to hell. [LAUGHTER] So my first day on the job site, I drive out to that reactor, and my car break down. So I’m in the middle of this desert, it’s cold and ice, and my car broke down. And that’s when they had the bus system come through. This guy came through in a bus and picked me up and took me back downtown. But it was really bad. It was really—the rules were not the same as the rules we have now in the building. Franklin: How so? Sparks: I remember one building that I worked in, I walked into the building and there was a research project set up. And I looked at the floor, and I said, it looked like the concrete had melted away. It turned out they was doing some type of research and lost whatever they were using, and it actually built a hole in the concrete. And I’m looking at that and said, I don’t want to work here. Because I thought it was not safe. But then over the years, the safety did improve and things are better out there now. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors or management? Sparks: I would have to go back to when I was an apprentice. During that time, because a lot of the guys that was working here was what you call travelers. And the travelers that were guys, like out of, say, Texas, and they were up here looking for work. So the travelers had a different attitude about the people that they work with. Most of them was very humble people, and they taught me everything that I needed to know. But every once in a while you’d run into one who wants to treat you like an apprentice. He want you to run and get his coffee, run and get his lunch and stuff for him. But because I was from a background where, being a wrestler, I had been exposed to the senior guy on the team, you would—that’s the way he treated you. The fraternities, they treated you that way in the fraternity. So in my mind, I said, this is just a pecking order. Because the money is so good, no way in the world am I going to walk away from this. One of the worst incidents that I had on a job site was at WPPSS number 2. Actually, this is when I was in college and I came there to work as an intern. And I was working with one of the older guys there. We were carrying two-by-fours on our shoulder and we was taking them over and stacking them in a pile. Well, he walked past me and hit me upside the head with the two-by-four. And the guy looks at me and I said, oh, that was an accident, huh? He said, yeah, just an accident. But then he came back again. This time, he hit me again, he swung it around, and hit me upside the head. I said, you can’t do that again. Then he looked at me, called me out of my name, and he say, you know what? He said, you took my son’s job. You shouldn’t even be out here. He said, I’m going to kick your butt. So he was behind—there was a big wall like that wall over there. This guy jumped on me, tackled me to the ground—and I’m thinking I’m making more money in my life, but if I don’t get this guy off me, he’s going to hurt me back here. So I actually had to put something on him, get him off of me, control him. And the weirdest thing about it is that we were working in this area where it was like wall was here and wall was there, and it turned out the guys at the job were sitting up there looking at us, and they did not stop it. And I said, why did you do that? They said, oh, we figured it was just a matter of time before you take care of this guy. So yeah, it was some cases of that out there. It wasn’t all good. Yeah. And another, to go back to the social part of the life, I used to go bowling a lot in Kennewick. After a wrestling match, me and my cousin was out bowling. And we were sitting there bowling. This is when bowling was big time, I mean, the bowling alley was full. Everybody was there, that’s where everybody hung out. Franklin: Was this the mid-to-late ‘70s? Sparks: Oh, yeah. It was big time. I’m sitting there bowling, having a good time. And I look up, and there’s two policemen coming in. And I say, what in the heck is this? So everybody—because he comes right out to the bowling lanes. He say, everybody up against the wall! So he makes everybody go up against the wall. He say, you two! He grabbed me and my cousin, and he say, you guys over here. And they took us out. I mean, the whole bowling alley, everybody’s watching—common criminals. I said, what in the world is going on? What happened? He said, a store had got robbed, he said it was a black guy—two black guys, one was tall and one was short. Well, I’m 5’9”. My cousin, he’s about 6’4”, so we fit the description. And the weirdest thing about it is that after he grabbed up, threw us up against the wall, because I’m a wrestler, my next, first reflex is to react. And he went just like this. And if I had reacted further, I would have been shot. So anyway, he took me to the Kennewick police station, they booked us. And I said, can I call my coach? And they said, why? I said, if I call him, he’ll tell you where I was at when this crime happened. You said the crime happened around 6:00. So I get my coach on the phone, I say, hey, I’m in jail. Can you get on this phone and tell this guy where I was at at 6:00? So he gets on the phone, he said, that is Bobby Sparks, and at 6:00 he was out in Walla Walla. We had a wrestling match in Walla Walla. Because he’s our lightweight, he was on the mat at this time. Will you please let him go? So anyway it, like I said, as I got older and as I started mingling, I started seeing a lot of the racism. Even, this was in, like you say, in the early ‘60s and early ‘70s. Franklin: Let’s see here. You already kind of covered some of these. How did your racial background figure into your working experiences? Sparks: You know, it’s the craziest thing. Here I am, let me give you my credentials. I went to University of Washington; I got a degree in business economics. IBEW Local 112, I got electrical training, journeyman wireman. I got my business license, which is electrical administrators for the State of Washington when I started working. So you look at all of my credentials, you say, this guy can go in, and he can get a job anywhere he wants to, based on his past performance. You know, if you look at my application for the companies that I applied for—which, I just found this out recently, and it kind of pisses me off—which is a good deal, I guess, I shouldn’t complain. But instead of going in and hiring me based on my credentials, based on the skill level that I had, they brought me in as an equal opportunity employee, as a special employee. And to me, because I’ve always been a competitor my whole life, I’m thinking, why you got to bring me in that way, instead of bringing me in just normal? So that kind of insulted me, yeah. Franklin: Right, because that idea is to counteract the bias inherent in hiring and to get us to a world that would be strictly merit-based, that’s the ideal. Even though it doesn’t exist. But you’re saying, I’m coming in under merit, but we’re so far away from that for blacks, that you’re going to bring me in under equal opportunity. Sparks: Equal opportunity employee. And I looked at that—because I’ve been a competitor. I was a national wrestling champ coming out of high school. I went to University of Washington, I went to NCAAs and I wrestled and I competed at that level. So then to say, you got to change the playing ground for me to get hired, it blew me away. Yeah, blew me away. But anyway, those are some of the things that, because we are in the state of Washington, it’s the unspoken things. And I found this out after about two, three years ago, when I was looking at some of my forms that had the special Affirmative Action stamp on it. And I’m thinking, affirmative action? And the amazing thing about it is that after I’d worked there, and that’s one of the things that I was going to show you, is the accomplishments that I have received after I got there. From EFCOG, which is one of the biggest DOE operations out there, they gave me a special award. They take me to Washington, DC and I got the DOE Secretary appreciation award. So that affirmative deal on my application just blew me away. But anyway. Franklin: That’s interesting, though, because it seems like one could still argue that without that program you might not have been hired at all. Right? I mean, because that was set up to—because blacks weren’t being hired on merit to begin with. Sparks: You’re correct. If that had not existed, I would not have been hired. But to me, that’s a slap in the face. You bring in a man who meets all the merits, but he’s not given the opportunity because of the color of his skin. But if I hadn’t have gotten hired, I would have been successful anyway. Because I would have just stepped out on my own and probably become a contractor. Which was what I did. But anyway, that’s just a twist. Franklin: That’s an interesting wrinkle into the whole thing. In what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Sparks: Hm! Even after, like you say, after the early ‘40s and stuff, there was still a lot of proprietary type of things at the Hanford Site and a lot of secrecy. Because a lot of work we was doing was still with—you couldn’t go out—I can’t share right now on this some of the things that I do. So it’s still—it’s not the fact that we building the bomb, but it’s fact that we have companies that we’re working for that were proprietary type of stuff. I can’t just go in and take a picture and give it to you and you show it on this. So the secrecy is still there. But it’s just for other reasons. Franklin: You mentioned how you were treated on the job. What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Sparks: Outside of work, it’s like they say, the church is the most segregated thing on Sunday morning. Franklin: It’s funny, Vanis and Edmon said that yesterday. Sparks: It is, it’s the same thing. So it’s kind of the same way with—I go to Dallas to a convention and stuff, and one thing I’ve learnt because I’m from Texas, I don’t want to go to convention and hang out and drink with you. Because I’ve been on a wrestling team, and we go to, say University of Minnesota. And as a team, we sit around at a bar and we drinking and we having a good time. Then all of the sudden a little boy who’s got a little problem with me wants to challenge me. So in order for me to stop having those confrontations, then before we get too drunk, I’m leaving. So I learned that a long time ago, at U-Dub, at Arizona State, a lot of the college, you know. You get too much liquor and the tongue gets kind of loose and I get a little upset if you call me out of my name. Franklin: Yup. You kind of mentioned some of your first impressions of the working conditions, with the concrete melting—you know, the spill and things. What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Sparks: Because I was from sports, at the time, I was in great physical shape. So as far as the physical side of the job, there was no challenge there. I did have issues with some of the double standards on the job site. Franklin: Such as? Sparks: Such as, you and I sitting here, right, and they having a plan of the day meeting. I’m a journeyman, you’re an apprentice. Normally, at a plan of the day meeting, they come to the journeyman and give him the job. But it got to the point that they started going to the apprentice, give the apprentice the job for the day, and then we would walk out. So, I don’t even think they were aware of it; it was like, that happens. So, just that type of deal. The unfair treatment on the job site. Yeah. Franklin: Let’s see here. So, you mentioned that you worked kind of all over 300 Area, 221, FFTF. How did you feel at the time, during the Cold War, about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Sparks: See, I’m not that old. I’m only 63. So I didn’t have anything to do with the development of the nuclear weapon. My job was more, after the weapons were developed, I got with the research and development laboratory, and our mission was a little different. Our mission was to clean it up. Franklin: Right, but in the ‘80s, Hanford was still producing plutonium for the US nuclear weapon stockpile. Sparks: They were producing plutonium, but, like you say, they weren’t using it. It wasn’t like it was a secret, we’re going to drop this on a country because we’re at war. To me it was more like, especially research, they were finding the effects of it, they were trying to find some medical use. Because I went with research and development. We were more into separating it out than stockpiling it. But you know, it was just like, the threat wasn’t there, we were just trying to compete with Russia, let Russia and all these other countries know that we have it. But Battelle’s mission was different. And a lot of their funding was not for the development of plutonium. The majority they worked with was research and development, maybe for the cigarette companies, automotive companies, and other type of technology. Franklin: Right, what do they call it? It’s like non-1830 or something? Sparks: That type of work. And most of the jobs that I did was that type of work. I wasn’t into the development of the bomb. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Sparks: The most important legacy of the Hanford Site—I saw the guy from Japan. He came here and he saw the bomb and stuff. And they talked to him, because I guess he was from Nagasaki. And he saw the effects of it. Then after he saw the effects of it, then he comes out here. And we were still praising the bomb. So for him to look at that, and see his family’s affected by it and stuff—it was like, a bad thing. But now, because it’s cleaning up and trying to rebrand itself and show that we’re trying to get away from the mission of doing this, and now our mission is to help and develop, like you say, different isotopes to help for cancer, isotopes for prostate cancer and all that stuff. Even though they developed that bad stuff, as long as you can use it for some good things, then that is great. You look at the guy that cried when he saw the bombs, the Richland bomb out there. But you look at it, and I look back at it and I say, if we hadn’t have dropped the bomb, then how many lives would have died, and how many lives was killed at Pearl Harbor? So some good things came out of it, but you can also see the power of the bomb. Now man is able to wipe itself out. So now we have to have some ways of controlling that energy out there after we release, let it out. Franklin: What did you—so you came here in the mid-‘60s and then grew up here, what did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Sparks: The prior history? The only history I had of the African workers is, like I say, when I visited my granddaddy in Kildare, Texas, and he had a picture of the Hanford—I think it was one of the old pictures of the Hanford Site. He showed me that picture. So the only history I had was the history of my grandfather gave me of the workers coming out here. They don’t talk about the hardship. They’re from Texas, and they’re real private guys. They’re macho men. We just suck it up, put up with it. So he didn’t go into great detail. It was more, to him, it was like, he was proud, because he knew that I was working there at a place where he had built and he was instrumental in pouring the concrete, getting the concrete in. Franklin: Did he talk about that pride of having— Sparks: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, my granddad is a huge man with a booming voice. I’d walk into the house and, boy, how you doing?! He’s yelling at me and stuff. I heard you work at the Hanford Site! He’d say, don’t you know I worked there in da-da-da-da-da?! And he talked a little about the storms and what he did. But he, and a lot of our other family members have land in Texas. So what he did, he didn’t stay here. He made some money, went back and paid for his land, bought him some apartment complexes and homes and stuff, and he lived a great life based on the money that he made at the Hanford Site. So he was really proud of that. Franklin: So it really kind of changed his life. Sparks: It do. I mean, I don’t know the exact amount of money that they were making in Kildare at the time, compared to what they was making there. But I heard it was a huge increase in income. Franklin: Yeah, it certainly was. Sparks: Huge boom. So, it did, it changed his life drastically. Franklin: From your perspective, what do you—what were their, the African Americans that worked at Hanford and the Manhattan Project, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life, and civil rights? Sparks: The guys that work at the Hanford Site, like you say, you look at community life. Not only did they work, but they look back at the community, and they’re saying, dude, you’re back here, you’re breaking your back, you’re making absolutely nothing, just enough to feed your family. If you actually come to the Hanford Site, then you can not only feed your family, but you can raise enough money for your kids to go to college. There’s some opportunities out here that you would never, ever get in Texas. Because in Texas, you couldn’t become an electrician, you couldn’t become a laborer; they didn’t have those trades. You’re a farmer. Either a farmer, or worked in the lumber mills, or you worked on the railroad tracks. And the amount that they paid was below minimum. So there was some huge economic advantages of coming here and moving your family up to a nice home and education. Even sewer system—we didn’t have a sewer system down in Texas. So it was all kind of advantages for coming and working at the Hanford Site. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: The main—it’s weird. I bought a house. Originally I applied for a home in Pasco. They said I didn’t make enough income, money, to buy the home in Pasco. Which is crazy. So then I applied for a home in Kennewick. And they said, oh, yeah, we can let you. It was the same price; it might have just been the institution, but it was weird to me. So I bought the house in Kennewick. And before I bought the house, I had the real estate company that was working for me, and it actually was my buddy. What she did was she brought an old form up, and on this form they even had statements, like no blacks allowed, and this is like, has slave quarters and stuff out there on this form that she gave me. So a lot of discrimination. Ask the question one more time—I think I got kind of sidetracked. Franklin: No problem. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Sparks: Okay. So that’s the one, is housing. The second one is the double standards. You go to east Pasco and we had dirt roads and no sidewalks. So it wasn’t— Franklin: Compared to west Pasco, right-- Sparks: Compared to west Pasco. Franklin: --which had sidewalks. Sparks: Sidewalks, yeah. Another thing is, when I was put in the special class, they didn’t grade me and put me in a special class because you’re special. They put me in the special class because—you know. Because of the color of my skin, is what I assumed it was. So there was issues like that. So those were the main ones to me, is housing and education. Franklin: What actions were being taken to address those issues? Sparks: Back then? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Basically what they did, it got to the point where people start protesting for equal housing. They knew that in order to make a change, we had to get on the city councils, we had to get into touch with the congressmen to change the way that they looked at the black community. Urban Renewal came in, and one thing that they did—a lot of the houses was really not up to code. So one thing that they did, they removed a lot of those older houses that was out of code which didn’t have septic systems in. They brought new septic systems in, they put sidewalks in. In the schools, they started hiring more black teachers so the kids could have a mentor that they could relate to, and counselors. So those are the things that they did. Franklin: Great. Sparks: Yeah. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Sparks: Well, one of the big leaders was, I call her Sister Barton. She was one of the leaders of the civil rights in the area. They had another gentleman by the name of Fletcher, he was another great leader and spokesman for the civil rights movements. They had Jackson, who was—most of these people got into the political side of it— Franklin: Was that Joe? Sparks: Yeah, Joe Jackson. They knew if they got on the political side of it they could make a change. They actually had not only Joe Jackson, you had Wayne Jackson also. He was involved in coming in and working with the cities to improve the conditions in east Pasco. Franklin: What were some notable successes of the civil rights movement? Sparks: Notable successes? Well, I guess I’m one of them. I’m a notable success. Because they made us—they made the government—the unions started counting how many people of color they had working in their armed forces and the services and stuff. And they started seeing there was none, and it wasn’t compatible to what the population was. So then they tried to go in there and ratify that—to take care of it. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges? Sparks: The biggest challenges? The biggest challenge is to change the culture. You have people who have believed for a long time that this is right. So you have to change that, to show them that it was not right. It was just wrong. Franklin: Yeah. And you’ve stayed at Hanford since you came here in the apprentice program, right? Or you stayed at Hanford/PNNL? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you move away at all, or--? Sparks: No. When I left college in ’82, I started working at Hanford, and I’ve been out there for 34 years. Actually, I’m getting ready to retire from the Hanford Site. So like I said, the conditions are really good. They question the safety of it, but the safety is probably—their record is better than any other records in the state of Washington when it comes to safety. So I’ve enjoyed working there. It’s been a great career. Franklin: Good. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Sparks: During the Cold War? Future generations? Basically, asked me that a long time ago. It’s that basically you got to treat a man the way you want to be treated. If I was to bring my child out there, and he was to get a job at the Hanford Site, I want them to come in there with the knowledge that you are equal. The amazing thing about the Hanford Site is you can be everything from a plasma physicist to, you can be a laborer. There’s so many different jobs that you can do out there, and so many different people, and so much knowledge that you can get from the Hanford Site. Because, like I said, you got the science, you got the biology, you got fishing—I mean, you name it, PNNL has it. And then you got the other sites, which they’re in the process of cleaning it up and making it better. So they still have that also. As far as a place to work, and not only do you work at the Hanford Site—Hanford reaches out to all over the United States. There’s jobs in Seattle and Sequim, Washington. Places you can work doing research with fish, with animals. So it’s very diverse. It’s the most diverse place that you can find for work, is at the Hanford Site. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: I think I covered it all. Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: I think I dipped into everything. Franklin: Yeah, you did a really great job. Sparks: I think I did. Franklin: Well, thank you, Bobby. I really appreciate you taking the time and coming to interview with us. Sparks: Oh, thank you for interviewing me. Yeah. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 221-T Plant 300 Area FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) WPPSS-2 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1965- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1982- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bobby Sparks Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Segregation School integration Discrimination Civil rights movements Sports Wrestling Electricians Racism Affirmative action Civil rights Description An account of the resource Bobby Sparks moved to Pasco, Washington in 1965 as a child and began working on the Hanford Site in 1982. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/08/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4c14f389cabeb4decbddf768c2f0ecb7.JPG d74b3388cc8683d3b332cc7063583428 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff5fb1faeada314afbef71a3db9e00f8a.mp4 1f76915136d411b2f4c27bbb5832e24e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend Jeannette Sparks Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Reverend Jeannette Sparks on May 5, 2018. The interview is being conducted at New Hope Methodist Church— Jeannette Sparks: Missionary Baptist Church. Franklin: --Missionary Baptist Church, sorry. New Hope Missionary Baptist Church. I will be talking with Reverend Jeannette about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Sparks: You know to put the “Reverend” on it, and then my full name is J-E-A-N-N-E-T-T-E. And the last name is S-P-A-R-K-S. Franklin: Great, and thank you so much, Reverend. How did you come to the Tri-Cities area? Sparks: How did I come where? Franklin: How did you come here? And when did you come here and why? Sparks: Oh, I was born in ’38. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: And my dad, we lived in Hermiston, Oregon for a few months, because my dad worked on the McNary Dam and John Day Dam. And then he bought the property here for his family and his mom. Franklin: What year did you come to Hermiston? Sparks: I came to Hermiston in ’48, mm-hmm. Franklin: What did your dad do on the dam? Sparks: We didn’t do—my dad went down, he was put in the big tubes with Mr. Shaw, and they’d go down and screw the boats in the water, until one day they had one of the cranes going across and it fell off and hit my dad in the head while he was down in the water. Franklin: Oh, no. Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did he die? Sparks: No, he survived. They had to wear those steel brick—you know, those steel hats? And the steel hat even had an inner lining in it. But it just shook him up for a while. Franklin: Oh, wow, wow. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: And when did you come to Pasco? Sparks: We moved to Pasco—we was in Hermiston for three years, and then Dad say he didn’t want us to stay in Hermiston, because he was moving around a lot. So he moved us to Tri-Cities, here to Pasco. And I went to elementary school where they have Pasco—across from the court house, is that the Pasco City Hall—no, it ain’t the city hall where you go pay your utilities. I went there. I went to elementary school and then I went to junior high school there. And then I went to Pasco High School. Then Sue Williams and myself, we played basketball, and we had to be on the guards when we went to Kennewick to play Kennewick. Because during that time, Kennewick, didn’t allow no blacks across the bridge at a certain time. But we’d beat them every time. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Franklin: Did you ever have any trouble in Kennewick? Sparks: No, Daddy didn’t believe in that. We never had any problem going to school. And then when we moved to Pasco, Daddy bought the property on the corner and two houses for—because he put his mom in one house, and our house was on that upstairs/downstairs on the corner of 712 on Douglas Street there. That’s where we grew up at, mm-hmm. We grew up right there. Franklin: Where were you born? Sparks: I was born in a little place called Kildare, Texas. My dad said, this wasn’t where he wanted his family to be. And he took his mom and all of us—I think it was just five of us then. Me, Opal, Bobby, and Thee and Donnell. It was five of us. We rode the train all the way from Texas. We was on the train when the high water—when they had the flood in St. Paul, Minnesota. We had to be there for weeks and weeks and weeks. But during those days, when you travel, see, they packed lunch. You wasn’t buying all that stuff they had in the kitchen. So my grandmother had a box, and, oh, that box was nothing like this, wasn’t even this wide. We had food all the way to Hermiston, Oregon. Didn’t have to buy a thing. Didn’t even get hungry. And you know, the peoples in Oregon were so—they were so much different than the people in Pasco, when we moved to Pasco. Franklin: How so? Sparks: Well, the peoples in Oregon, they didn’t act like you was any different from them. But when you come to Pasco, they say you can’t go across, can’t be caught across the bridge at dark, and Daddy say, well, now you have to obey their laws. And when we went there, we would have to be guarded. When we was going to school and playing basketball, you see? But all that done changed so much, ‘til—[LAUGHTER] They used to have a sign at the bridge. My daddy helped build the bridge. And they had a sign up there that said, No blacks in Kennewick after dark. They used to have that sign over there. But they eventually moved the sign. I wasn’t in Washington when they did it. I wasn’t here. [LAUGHTER] I married and moved to California. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: What were your first impressions when you arrived in Pasco? Sparks: Well, it was—it wasn’t like Hermiston; it was like different. Because Dad would always tell us, you can’t go so-and-so-and-so, you couldn’t do this, you can’t do that, and you couldn’t—you know. But in Hermiston, it was no different. But we hated—we moved to Pasco. My Daddy says, it’s gonna get better. He kept telling us, it’s gonna get better. Gonna get better, gonna get better. And then we got old enough, we went to the grape field and helped pull the Welch’s grapes. Went and hoed sugar beets out on Road 68 where they got all them houses out there. It used to be nothing but fields. And you talking about hot. It is not hot here like it used to be. It used to be hot here. It ain’t hot like that no more. Franklin: I guess there were a lot less trees, huh? Sparks: Mm-hmm. And we had—when we went to school in Pasco, we didn’t have no problem, mm-mm. Nope. Franklin: It seems like a lot of black families left Kildare to come here. Are you related to anyone else that came up here? Sparks: The Daniels is my cousins. Franklin: So Vanis? Sparks: Vanis, all them, mm-hmm, that’s my cousins on my dad’s side. And their uncle, CJ Mitchell? CJ Mitchell came up here with my dad. Franklin: So you’re related to the Mitchells as well. Second cousin? Sparks: Mm-hmm, on my dad’s side. Franklin: What was your dad’s name? Sparks: Artis Miles, A-R-T-I-S M-I-L-E-S. And my mom was Bernice Weaver, mm-hmm. Franklin: Great. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Sparks: Well, you know, when you’re young, you don’t understand that—in Hermiston we didn’t have no problem. We mixed with all the other kids. But when you come to Pasco, we was hauled off, they was hauled off somewhere, and I never could figure out why all the blacks was over here and the rest of them was over here. It took me a while to get used to that. Because I wasn’t used to it. But I learned to get used to it, and then we had to walk to school, had to walk from the east side here to the Pasco High School on the other side. Franklin: And go under the tracks? Sparks: Mm-hmm, we had to go up under the underpass. And when we go under there, we’d be saying, aloha. [LAUGHTER] But after everything started changing—the Tri-Cities have changed tremendously. Because I see blacks all in Kennewick and everywhere. And my mom’s sisters and them, they lived all in Richland. Because they wouldn’t allow no black in Kennewick, so they lived in Richland. My cousin, CW Brown and Norris Brown, they used to call him the Sweet Georgia Brown. The Richland Bomber used to beat every team that was here, even Pasco team. Mm-hmm. Yep. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard about their basketball skills. Sparks: Oh, yeah. The Richland Bombers. My two cousins was on that team, and boy, I’ll tell you, Norris Brown and CW Brown. And I mean, they’d win every game they had. Franklin: They had a pretty big rivalry between Richland and Pasco, right? Sparks: Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I was only a cheerleader for a while, and then I said, no, I can go into something else. [LAUGHTER] Because it was okay as long as they was in the Tri-Cities, but when they had to go to Yakima or somewhere else, Dad’d always say, no, y’all ain’t going, because you ain’t got no good supervisors, so y’all ain’t going. And we didn’t go. Franklin: Because he was kind of protective, huh? Sparks: Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: What do you know about your parents’ lives before they came to the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, my daddy was a farmer in Kildare, Texas. Franklin: He was a foreman? Sparks: He worked corn, peas— Franklin: Oh, farmer, farmer, gotcha. Sparks: A farmer. And he used to tell us, he said, when Daddy make enough money, Daddy going to move you from here. He used to tell us that all the time, and finally one day, my dad, CJ Mitchell, and, oh, I forget his other cousin. Oh, he’s dead and gone, god. They still have got the house there, up from me, on Douglas. Oh! Franklin: It’s not a Daniels is it? Sparks: The Daniels? Franklin: Willie, is it? Sparks: Well, the Daniels came on up, too. Daddy helped—the Daniels came up with Daddy, and all of them, they all came up and start working here. My dad worked with Mr. Shaw on the dams. McNary Dam, and, oh, I think it was about three or four dams he helped on, and he got hurt on the John Day Dam, down there, going to The Dalles, Oregon. Franklin: Oh, wow. What was it about the work up here that drew your dad and his cousins and things up here? Sparks: Well, my mom used to work in the Salishan. You know anything about Salishan? Franklin: No. Sparks: My mom used to work at the Salishan, where they buff sheets for the Army. You know anything about that? Franklin: No. Sparks: Yeah, my mom used to work at Salishan where, they call it bucking sheets. And I know what that was, that means you have to fold them a certain way. For the Army boys. And then when we was in Hermiston, they had an Army base not too far from where we lived. They’d come right by the house to get to the Army base. But my life growing up with my family was, oh, it was just out of sight. Dad didn’t let us go out to play with nobody, because he said there was enough of us we could play in the yard together. And that’s what we did. This was our recreation all the time, church. Vacation Bible School, Sunday school. And oh, how I thank him today, for him, because some of them that’s my age, oh, I look at them today, and just—and they still haven’t accepted the Lord. And I wonder, what’s going to happen when judgment day come? Mm-hmm. Franklin: Was the work different up here? Did the work pay better up here? Is that why so many men, so many people left Kildare to come here? Sparks: Well, my dad said that in order for them to progress, you just can’t stay in the same—you’ve got to span yourself out and see where the work is at. Because, see, when they was in Texas, all they talked about fielding and growing corn and all of that stuff, and then they’d take it to market and sell it. And Daddy said, no, that wasn’t for him. So he expanded out. I think the six of them came up in a T-model Ford. Six of them came up in a T-model Ford. CJ Mitchell and all them, they came up in a—and they worked at Hanford. Franklin: Did your father work out on the Site? Sparks: Oh, no, my father worked on the bridges. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Yeah, he worked on—him and Mr. Shaw. I don’t know why he loved it, going under that, in that big tube, down, way down at the foot of the—putting boats in the—he loved it there. And we couldn’t—if Daddy was late getting in, we’d all get in a huddle and start praying, hoping nothing done happened to our Daddy. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: And so did you attend this church here when you got here? Sparks: Oh, yeah, this is where I attended—I went to this church when the church was on—what’s that, Beech Street? Beech Street. Bobby Sparks: What year was it though? What year? Sparks: Oh, and then after Beech Street, we used to have church at the Elks Club. It used to be at the Elks Club. And then when they built this church up here, I was here. I got my shovel, went and dug the first dirt out here. Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: What role does church play in the community? Sparks: What who? Franklin: What role did church play in the African American community? Sparks: In this community? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Well, our mission, we go out and help those that can’t help themself. We feed the hungry. A lot of time they bring, sometimes it’s three and four box loads of people out on the street and they just bring them here, senior citizens, and we cook food and feed them here in this dining room. We’re missionaries, we do all of that. And we have a sweet pastor. He’s another one, he loves having everybody. [LAUGHTER] Yep. And I know this church, I don’t know about the other churches, but every Wednesday night we have Bible study and prayer meeting. And I mean, he teaches the Word, and it is awesome. We was here last night, oh, it was so good. Reading the book of Acts now. Yep, we done made it to the book of Acts. We just thank God—you know, it’s a blessing when you have a pastor that likes to teach those who want to be taught. So when he get here and preach it, then they can witness to it. But if you don’t know what he’s saying, you cannot witness to it. Because you don’t know if it’s in the Bible or not. And he’s strictly from the Word of God in the Bible. Franklin: Does the church play a special role in the black community? Sparks: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Could you talk about that, historically? Sparks: We goes out, the missionaries, we go out, we help the homeless, and if any of them come in the church that need help, we always help them. If they’re trying to get a place, if they need clothes, if they need food, we do that. And you’d be surprised to see how many boxes of food lined up here in the kitchen, where they take it out and give it to needy peoples. And then the peoples tell other peoples, and they just come to the church to pick up the box. A lot of them pick up the boxes, you don’t see them no more, but you continue to pray for them. One day they will turn around, mm-hmm. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions that people brought from the places they came from? Sparks: Well, I don’t know. I know one thing they had there. Bobby, what is that they had in Kildare? Oh, the Juneteenth. Franklin: What’s that? Sparks: That’s Juneteenth. Franklin: The humanitarian award. Can you see that, Tom? Can you tell me about—can you talk about Juneteenth for those viewing this that may not know about it? Sparks: We have it in the park over here, at the park on this side. I always say on the east side. The park on the east side, it used to be houses all down in there, but they made a big park down in there. And then we talk about the old time, we talk about our history and where we come from, how we got here. Franklin: What does Juneteenth celebrate? Sparks: Juneteenth celebrates our history. It’s our history. And this here, see that? Isn’t that a community award? Franklin: Yeah, the Juneteenth Community Council. Sparks: I was a person that, I didn’t care who you was, or what color you was, or where you came from, if you needed help, I would go help. Because we are all God’s children. And God don’t have no respective person so why do we? We supposed to be able to help everybody, regardless. And that’s me. A lot of time, I go—if I go downtown and see somebody on the street needs some help, I’ll holler and say, hey, you want a hamburger? Come on. When it’s in you, it’s in you. And it’s been building in you from knee-high to adult, all the way up. We was taught from both sides, from the Weaver side, the Davis side, the Miles side, we was taught. And that’s what we supposed to do for one another, we shouldn’t have one respective person who we help regardless. Because when God call your name, he going to tell you, remember that so-and-so-and-so you passed by and you didn’t help him? I don’t want Him to say that to me. I don’t want Him to set apart from me I know you’re not. I want Him to know me, you see? Franklin: Yeah. What about—I asked you earlier about traditions that people brought with them from the places they came from. But what about food? Did people bring a certain culinary or food culture with them from Kildare to here? Sparks: Well, they packed food, they fried chicken and they had cornbread. And then they made a lot of muffins, a lot of tea cakes, and a lot of people do that now when we have our gathering here at the church, people bring food that we used to eat. Old-fashioned Sunday. That takes us back to our grandparents and great-grandparents. Make dishes and bring them. And I mean, it seem like that Sunday at the church, we have to put chairs out for peoples to sit. But it should be like that every Sunday. Everybody should appreciate where they come from and what the Lord is doing for them and what other peoples are helping them with. You know? Some’ll come today and you don’t see them no more for a while until they need something. But you don’t turn them away; you still give it to them. That’s going to be between them and God. You see? Franklin: Yeah. What about sports? Did anyone bring any sports traditions with them? Sparks: Oh, I played basketball. I played basketball for Pasco High School and tennis, played tennis. Mm-hmm. Volleyball. Me and Sue Williams. Franklin: Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you or your parents came from? Sparks: Well, yeah! A lot of things here available that wasn’t available. Because that’s why my dad moved from Texas, because he said, uh-uh. He wasn’t born in no backdoor and he wasn’t going to stay here and continue to go in no backdoor to shop. That’s when we got the train and moved to Hermiston, Oregon. Franklin: So segregation was a pushing factor? Sparks: Oh, it was too much. And Dad said he wasn’t going to raise his family there. And he didn’t. Let me see. Him, CJ Mitchell, and cousin Vanis Daniels, and all of them loaded up in a T-model Ford. Franklin: How was housing different from here compared to Kildare? Sparks: Well, I tell you what. In Kildare, the blacks stayed in they position, and the whites stayed in theirs. And the blacks never had a place to shop; they had to shop at the white store. And if you wasn’t light-skinned, you couldn’t go in the front door; you had to go in the back door. That’s just the way it was. And my mom and his mom, they all could go in there, because they looked like they was white anyway, mm-hmm. Franklin: What about education? What grades did your parents go through? What was their education level? Sparks: I graduated from Pasco High School. Franklin: But your parents? Sparks: Oh, my parents? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Oh, my dad didn’t graduate, but my mom graduated. My mama graduated. Because my dad had—they had to do work in the field and work for—my dad and them was Uncle Tom then because they had to work in the field. Daddy say he was sick of that. Mm-mm. They was getting out. And that’s why all them got together and decided to drive a T-model Ford to Hermiston, Oregon. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation and racism? Sparks: Well, none of the opportunities have lightened up a whole lot. Because when we first moved here, you couldn’t go across the bridge at night. If you did, the peoples in Kennewick would beat you up. Dad would always tell us, when Miss Booth take you all to Kennewick—and he would tell Miss Booth, you keep my girls with you. Because I don’t want nothing to happen to them. And she did, too. And they was teachers that are all Pasco High School. When we went to junior high we didn’t have no problem, because, you know. And then one of my cousins went with a girl named Marsha. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: Could you describe any interactions you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Do I do what? Franklin: Could you describe any interactions that you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area? Sparks: We ain’t had no problem. Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you ever go to Richland to visit your cousins? Sparks: Oh, yeah, that’s as far as we went: to they homes. Franklin: How was Richland different from Pasco? Sparks: Well, Richland was nice. It was Kennewick. Kennewick. Never had no problem with Richland. It was only Kennewick. And Kennewick didn’t allow any blacks over there after dark. They didn’t care if they was light-skinned or black-skinned or whatever. You wasn’t—and they used to have it on the bridge there. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you went to Pasco High School. Where did you go to elementary and middle school? Sparks: Where you pay the water bill over here across from the court house? You know what? Tom Hungate: City hall. City hall. Sparks: The courthouse? That’s where I went to elementary school at. Franklin: Okay. So you didn’t go to Whittier? Sparks: No, I didn’t go to Whittier. They wouldn’t even have a bus to come over here and pick us up until my dad and them finally got a bus to come pick us—we had to walk. Franklin: Can you tell me, how did your dad and others get a bus here? Sparks: Well, they kept having meetings with the city, having meeting with the city, having meeting with the city, and finally they started the buses to come here. And the bus used to pick us up at Whittier Elementary School. But see, Whittier Elementary School is not there anymore. Elementary school is further up. But elementary school was there before you go under the underpass. That’s where the elementary school was. And it was houses there. I look where they have done put all these factories over here and there wasn’t nothing but a lot of houses over here, you know. And all the houses over here were mostly black on this side of town. All black families lived on this side of the underpass. And now they done put all factories over here. Franklin: Part of the redevelopment. Sparks: Yup, they done put a lot of factories over here. Franklin: How did segregation and racism affect your education? Sparks: None whatsoever. Franklin: Okay, who were some of the people who influenced you as a child? Sparks: Encouraged me when I was a child? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Well, I don’t know if Mr. Sundale was still living. Franklin: Who was he? Sparks: He was a teacher. And he said, no matter what, you get your education and you can look back on them. Mr. Sundale. Miss Stiggers. Miss Stiggers was a good—she’d always tell you, your education will take you a long ways. And Mr. One-eyed Harper. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did he really have one eye? Sparks: Yup. He had a marble eye, but he only had one eye he could see out of. Franklin: And he was another teacher? Sparks: He was another teacher, mm-hmm. Miss Stanley was, she say, your education, if you get a good education, it’ll take you a long ways in the world. And that was true. Franklin: When did you graduate high school? Sparks: I graduated in—oh, god, I graduated from Pasco High School. I don’t know what year. I should’ve bought that book, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you go to college? Sparks: I went to CBC for a while. Franklin: What did you study there? Sparks: Well, mostly, I went to theological seminaries. Franklin: Where was that? Sparks: In California and a little bit here, before I went to California. I went to theological seminaries for my—to continue in my ministry. Franklin: What made you want to go into church leadership? Sparks: What did what? Franklin: What drove you to go into church leadership? Sparks: Because when we was growing up, Dad always told us, you can always depend on God when you can’t depend on nobody else. That’s the man I wanted to be serving, was somebody I could depend on. And my daddy kept us in serving the Lord all the time. We never could go to birthday parties, nobody birthday parties. He said it was enough of us to have a birthday party in the yard. And I thank him for that. When they built this church here, my dad was one of the deacons. We was in everything. We had a lot of plays that we used to put on when we was growing up. Old-fashioned Sundays and all of that. We used to dress up like they did in the olden days, sing the old hymns like they did in the olden days, mm-hmm. And I just love it, you know. My little Sunday school students, I just love them so much. And I tell them, what your grades is in school? Let me see your report card. And they let me see—they bring that report card and let me see it. And sometime I say, here’s your few bucks you can get you a big hamburger and some French fries. You know, it was done for me when I was growing up, and you just carry it on. And you don’t know what will help. I imagine the peoples and things gave it to me never thought that I would be a minister. But I loved this church. Loved to sing. All that. And my mom used to sing in the choir. My mom used to sing in the choir, mm-hmm. Franklin: Could you sing one of the old songs? Sparks: Me? Franklin: That people used to sing, yeah. Sparks: [singing] Guide me over, great Jehovah, pilgrim through this barren land. Franklin: Thank you, that was really wonderful. So I wanted to shift into talking about civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities. Sparks: Some what? Franklin: Civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? You mentioned that you left the Tri-Cities area for a while. When did you leave? Sparks: Leave what? Franklin: Here, Pasco. Sparks: Oh, after I married. In ’57. Franklin: And when did you come back? Sparks: I’d come back every year. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: My husband and I, we moved to California. But every year, he promised me when I told my mom, he said, every year she can come back and spend the summer with you. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: And he kept that promise until he died, mm-hmm. Franklin: How long did you live in California? Sparks: Oh, God, how old is Chris? 60-something years. Bobby Sparks: Yeah. Sparks: I just moved back here about 12 years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Sparks: That was when my husband got sick and we moved. He wanted to be back home, so we moved back here and then I ended up on dialysis, and when I’d get off of dialysis they’d drop me off over there at Avalon, and I’d spend the rest of the evening with him, and then I’d come home and I’d make sure on my day off, I’d go to Avalon and give him his shower and feed him and everything. And we was married for 57 years, almost—in two months it’d be 58 years. That’s a long time to be with one man, ain’t it? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yes, it is. When you were here, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, you know, when I was here, my dad was involved in that. Him, and Mr. Vanis Daniels—oh boy, what was the other heavyset man lived on—CJ Mitchell, Primmer Brown, let me see who else. Katie Barton, Mother Katie Barton. She stayed on it all the time, Katie Barton did. And she was the one, Katie Barton was the one that took that sign off the bridge. Franklin: Really? Sparks: Uh-huh. Where it says, no blacks allowed. She went and took that sign off the bridge. Franklin: When was that? Sparks: Katie Barton? Franklin: When was that? Sparks: That’s when I was going to junior high school. Franklin: Oh, okay, so it came down in the ‘50s? Sparks: Mm-hmm, back in the ‘50s. Because Miss Booth—because I played basketball, me and Sue Williams. Oh, Mr. Williams was involved, too, in helping. Mr. Joe Williams, Mr. Joe Bush, Daddy, Vanis Daniels, all of them, they was involved in getting stuff together, you know. Franklin: What kinds of things were they involved in? Sparks: In getting the civil rights to be like it should. Trying to let peoples know the world is just not belongs to the whites or the light-skinned; it belongs to all the peoples created under God, one nation, one God. And that’s what they was doing. They finally got it through. Franklin: Were there any big issues that people worked on that stand out to you? Sparks: Because they didn’t want any blacks in Kennewick. That was a big issue. They didn’t want any blacks in Kennewick. And if you caught—you couldn’t even be caught over there after dark, even if you worked over there. Franklin: Was housing or sidewalks an issue for folks? Sparks: Well, you couldn’t—in Kennewick, you couldn’t be caught in Kennewick after dark. Franklin: What about in east Pasco, was there a lack of services in east Pasco? Sparks: No, we didn’t have no problem over here. No problem whatsoever. Franklin: What about in employment? Sparks: Unemployment? Franklin: In employment, getting jobs. Sparks: Oh, they was able to get jobs. They was able to get jobs at Hanford. All of them, a lot of them worked at Hanford. My momma, when we lived in Seattle, my mom worked in what they call, a place called Salishan. That was bucking sheets. They had to do the sheets for the them to buckle, fold the plastic on them, and bag them up and put them on the market for sale. That’s why mom did. Franklin: Besides removing the sign, you said Katie Barton helped that, were there any other notable successes of the civil rights movement in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Oh, yeah, a lot of black people living in Kennewick now. [LAUGHTER] But there’s nothing wrong with Kennewick, like it used to be. Everybody just is nice and—you know. The younger generation that came along after the old generation, a whole lot changed. It was the older generation. But when the younger generation started coming in, and my cousin and them were going and playing basketball, and we’d go over there for cheerleaders and all that kind of stuff, the younger generation changed Kennewick. Not the older. The younger generation changed Kennewick. Because they wasn’t having all that, mm-mm. Franklin: What were some of the biggest civil rights challenges, issues that were challenging for folks? Sparks: Was Kennewick. [LAUGHTER] It was Kennewick. Pasco, you never had a problem. Never had a problem in Pasco. Kennewick was the problem. Never had a problem in Richland. Never had a problem in Richland. Kennewick was the only one. And after—you know, after the older folks moved on, then Kennewick started changing and changing, and blacks live in Kennewick and everywhere else, you know, all down in there. And I was just over that way not too long ago, and I said, my land, I remember when you couldn’t even come down this hill. When they put that freeway in and got that freeway going everywhere. But the younger generation, they brought by the change. That young generation did. Like our age and like that, they the ones that changed Kennewick. Now some of the elder people, boy, they’d tell you, they’d call you all kinds of colors and curse you and, don’t walk on the sidewalk, walk in the street and all that kind of stuff. Franklin: Did that ever happen to you? Sparks: I never had a problem. [LAUGHTER] Mm-mm. Nope, I never had a problem. But when Daddy would take us over there, he’d just hold my hand and go on. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: What about when—did you ever have any—were there problems with eating at restaurants or shopping or anything, problems with services or being treated less-than? Sparks: I’ve never ate a restaurant in Kennewick. Up to this day, I still won’t. Nothing that—it’s not prejudice or anything like that, I just don’t. I say, it’s enough restaurants over here, it’s the same thing. So why would I go over there to go out of my way to go over there to bother somebody else, you see? Franklin: Was there ever any problems with folks on the west side of Pasco? Sparks: Mm-mm. Don’t have no problem with none of them. All of them on the west side of Pasco over there in them new homes and everything, I grew up with a lot of them. And some people moved here that go to my church here, live out there on Road 68. That’s where I go out there for dialysis. If you want to, you can go out there and dialysis in there and say, I wanna ask you something about Sparky. Oh, Sparky? Oh, sit down. They’d tell you about Sparky, mm-hmm. Franklin: Do you have memories of the Hazel Scott case in 1950? Where she was refused service at the Pasco bus station? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you ever hear about that? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Mm-mm. What happened? Franklin: She was a very famous singer in World War II and afterwards. She was married to a congressman. She was African American and so was her husband. I can’t remember his name; he was a congressman from Harlem. And she was on a tour, and the bus stopped at the Greyhound Station in Pasco. She went to the lunch counter, and sat down and the waitress refused to serve her. And she said, why are you refusing to serve me? And the waitress said, I can’t; the owner said I can’t serve you. And the owner came out and said, we don’t serve blacks here. They had a sign up in the Pasco bus station. So she was pretty famous and had a famous husband, so she sued in Washington State court, and she won the lawsuit. And they had to pay her and they had to take down the sign. Sparks: Well, Dad always tell us where to go eat and where to stop, and when you come from school, you come straight home and your food is all ready in the kitchen. You see? And if he give us lunch money and we didn’t eat lunch at school, he’s going to say, well, since you ain’t eating lunch at school, you wait until you get home and eat. Did you remember the Dew Drop Inn? Right there by the underpass? Franklin: I’ve heard of it. Sparks: Oh. [LAUGHTER] That’s where, when Daddy was working on the dam, and we got out of school early, and we’d know if we came home, Momma was going to have something for us to do. We’d stop at the Dew Drop Inn. Franklin: What would you do there? Sparks: Oh, we danced and do whatever we wanted to do. Buy hamburgers and stuff. Save our lunch money and wait. Are we going to the Dew Drop Inn today? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then sometime, one of the elder people said, Miles, did you know the kids didn’t go to school all day today? They’d come down and tell Daddy. Daddy’d say, y’all didn’t go to school all day today? Where you been? [LAUGHTER] But I thank God for my parents, because they raised us in the admiration of the Lord and told us that God has no respective person, so why do you? And that’s the way it is with me, you know? Even when I’m on dialysis, I’ll pray for them all, because we’re all God’s children. God just wanted a bouquet of roses when he created all of us. And He did. It’s different colors and every denomination. So, this one guy said, how come we all can’t get along? [LAUGHTER] But I don’t have no problem with it. I don’t have no problem with any of it. Franklin: Do you remember any other important landmarks, like the Dew Drop Inn, from that era? Sparks: Well, it was all houses over there. Franklin: What about Virginia’s Chicken Shack? Sparks: Virginia down here? You know, Virginia’s shop was right down here on the corner. Franklin: No, I didn’t. Sparks: Yeah, Virginia restaurant were right here on the corner before you go across the tracks. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: On A Street. Franklin: Did you ever eat there? Sparks: Oh, many times. You talking about, that woman could cook some biscuits. And her biscuits was—and you could get two or three biscuits out of hers and she’d put that jelly and preserves in between there and that ham, the ham they used to raise—shoot. Mm, mm. My dad raised his own pigs. Franklin: Oh, really? Sparks: Oh, yeah, my dad, his pig lot was over there. He had his own pigs and he had his own beef further up there. Mm-hmm, yup. He had the cow, he had the calves, he had the pigs, he had the bacon and he had the beef. And he had to. Bobby Sparks: How many kids he have? Sparks: Mm-hmm! Bobby Sparks: How many kids? Sparks: It was 15 of us. Franklin: Wow! Where are you in that lineup? Sparks: I’m the second. Franklin: Second-oldest? Sparks: Mm-hmm, I’m the second-oldest. Franklin: What are your siblings’ names, starting from the oldest going down? Sparks: Opal, Jeannette, Bobbie, Taylor, Ennis—where I have them at, all in the book? [LAUGHTER] Right there, in that folder. Right there in that folder there. Hungate: Right there, whole family, 15 of them. Sparks: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yup. This was us. See, God, it’s even wrote all on the back. That’s a lot of us. Franklin: Opal, Jeannette, Bobbie, Taylor, Shirley, Theartis, Donnell, Willy, Evelyn—that’s my wife’s name—LaWanda, Ennis, Theresa, Ervin, Gwendolyn, and Curtis. Wow. That is quite an age range, too. How old was your mother when she had you? Sparks: I don’t know how old my mom and dad was when they had me. [LAUGHTER] But I know I’m 60. Opal’s 61, and Bobbie gonna be 60. Franklin: I think you mean— Sparks: My other sister up in Tacoma, mm-hmm. Franklin: Here you go. Wow. That’s quite a large family. Sparks: Oh, you know what? When we was growing up, we had such a good time growing up together. And that’s why Daddy never would let us go to birthday parties. Because he would always tell us, it’s enough of y’all to have a birthday party out there in the yard. Franklin: How big was your house? Sparks: You know this house here on the corner of Douglas Street, upstairs and downstairs? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: That was our house. That’s where I grew up at. Franklin: Just right down there. Sparks: Off A Street on Douglas. Right on the corner, and it’s a little piece of lot still next to it there. Franklin: Where do you live now? Sparks: I still live on Douglas. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: 712 South Douglas. The oldest one, the two oldest ones had a choice when we got married. One could have a big wedding and the other one could have a down payment on a house. My older sister wanted the wedding. And I got the down payment on the house. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s a good deal! Sparks: And I’m still in the house. I’m still in my house. Franklin: Wow. Sparks: I go to California, but when I go to California, I just lock it up and go ahead on. The gardener come and cut the yard and everything, but. My boys was born in California. But they would come and spend the summer with my mom and dad. Franklin: How many children do you have? Sparks: I have—one, two, three. I have four sons. Four sons, mm-hmm. I lost my Waynie. I lost my youngest son. The last one I had, I lost him. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: I’m sorry to hear that. Sparks: But I enjoy them all. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, that’s where I’ll be going. My oldest son’ll be here in June so he can take me back to California because I won’t ride the train nor the plane nor the bus. So they’ll come drive me down, and when I get ready to come back, they’ll drive me back. Franklin: Oh, wow. To go back to the civil rights talk we were speaking of earlier. Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Do you remember when the schools in the South were desegregated? Brown v. the Board of Education? Sparks: Oh, yeah! The black school had they schools and the white had they school. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember when my dad couldn’t even go in the front door of the market, but my mom could. And I’m for sure his mom could, too. I’m pretty sure that Anna Mae could, too, because you see them, they could pass, you’d think they was white. They could go in the front door. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights movements in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, it helped out a lot in Kennewick. That’s the only problem they had, was in Kennewick. They never had a problem in Pasco and Richland. It was just Kennewick. Because when we’d even go over there to play basketball, Miss Booth would have to guard me and Sue Williams because we both was black. Franklin: Were you ever threatened, or--? Sparks: No, because Miss Booth kept us right up under her. And we beat them by 20 points. Franklin: What was different about Kennewick? Why do you think, looking back on it, what was Kennewick’s opposition to having blacks in their town? Sparks: Well, I don’t know, it was the older peoples. It was the old peoples who had settled there for a long time, had been there for a long time. But the young generation came behind them. Shoots, they was even going with the black boys. You know. And I say, it was just the older generation that had that going. But it’s the other generation came along, like me and I know my cousin, CW used to go with a girl named Marsha. She was white as I don’t know what and had blonde hair. Franklin: Was that shocking at all for some people? Sparks: Well, it was shocking then. After a lot of the old peoples moved on off, a lot of the elder people passed and went on that had—a lot of elder peoples in Kennewick had a lot of prejudice in them. But the young—the generation came behind them, they sure didn’t. Franklin: What do you think changed in that generation? Sparks: The generation came on after them. Franklin: Yeah, what was so different between the old people and the young people? What was it? Sparks: Well, the generation came on behind them, they didn’t have no picks and no choices. Everybody was created equal. But the older generation, they just figured everyone was Uncle Tom and all that, you know, couldn’t do this and couldn’t have this and couldn’t have that. I know when my dad was building the bigger house down there, and they was wondering what Mr. Miles was building. See, it didn’t bother Daddy because Daddy worked on the dam, him and Mr. Shaw. And he worked on the dams all over, you know. And my daddy was black as the ace of spades. But he was sweet as he could be. And see, my mom, you know, they got Indian and all that in them, so they could do whatever. You know, they was real light-skinned. They could go in anywhere. Momma didn’t have no problem in Kennewick; it was Daddy. But Momma couldn’t drive, so she couldn’t go unless Daddy took her. [LAUGHTER] And Daddy said, no, we’re going to Richland. We’re not going to Kennewick today. [LAUGHTER] And we’d go to Richland and Mom would go to Richland. Franklin: When you moved to California, were your experiences there, being black, were they different than here in Pasco? Sparks: Oooooh, it was a whole lot of different. Franklin: How so? Sparks: You could go anywhere you want to. Franklin: In California? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And where did you move to in California? Sparks: I lived in—when I lived in California, I lived on 3rd Avenue, and I was right down the street from the Pasco High School. Franklin: Oh, when you lived in California. Sparks: When I lived in California. Franklin: Where? Sparks: I was down the street from Crenshaw High School. Franklin: Oh, okay, is that in LA? Sparks: Uh-huh, that’s in LA. I worked at the school. And then I worked at the convalescent home, I worked everywhere, and I went to Providence Theological Seminary College. And it was mixed; it didn’t have no all-black. It wasn’t all-black; it was a mixture of us. And I fellowship with them now. When I go to California, I go to that church, and we just have a ball. And they say, Sparks, you finally came back! You know. I never had no problem when I was going to school here in Pasco. It was just that when we went to Kennewick to play basketball. Franklin: I wanted to ask you about your husband. How did you meet him? Sparks: Well, my husband’s auntie lived there, this Smiths. Uncle Dave and Aunt Clement. They lived there. They lived, they got that big house next street over from me over there. QT come up and visit them. Franklin: Who? Sparks: My husband. Franklin: Did you cutie? Sparks: We call him QT but his name is Quilla. And we called him QT. Quilla Terrence Sparks. We called him Quilla. And he come up to visit his auntie, because his mom lived in Oxnard, California. That’s where he graduated in high school, in Oxnard, and played basketball. Franklin: And you met him when he came to visit? Sparks: I met him when he come to visit the first time. But I was still going to school. His mom and his grandma—his mom went to school with my mom. Franklin: In Kildare? Sparks: In Texas. His grandmother would come down to my mom house. Because my mom quilted a lot. They quilt a lot. And his grandma would come down and help Mom quilt. He came down and picked her up one time, and he asked me, who do you belongs to? And I said, my mom and my daddy. [LAUGHTER] You’d think your daddy would mind if I take you to get a hamburger? I say, you gotta ask my daddy. And from them on, he start—I was still in school. I was in high school. And he’d meet me everyday at the bus stop to walk me home. Mm-hmm. And I got married in my dad’s living room. In 1957, mm-hmm. Franklin: So you were 17, 18? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Sparks: And I got married in my dad living room. Franklin: And then you moved to California with him? Sparks: In three days, he said, we moving to California with my mom. And that’s where my sons was born. But every year, he said, he told Momma, he said, I’ll let her come back every year to visit. And he kept that promise. Me and the kids, we’d come every year. And then his grandmother came and she stayed whenever the boys was born, she’d come and stay with me so she could help me take care of the boys. He had a sweet grandmother, mm-hmm. Franklin: So did his family come up to work at Hanford or the dams as well? Sparks: No. Not then. They came up later. I think Uncle Dave worked at Hanford. Didn’t Uncle Dave work at Hanford? Uncle Dave worked at Hanford. Franklin: That would be his uncle? Sparks: That’s his uncle. That’s his mom—his dad—no, that’s your mom? Bobby Sparks: His sister. My dad’s sister. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yup. See this is my cousin on my mom’s side. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: His mom was on my mom’s side. His daddy is on my husband’s side. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Franklin: Gotcha. Sparks: They all went to school together in Kildare, Texas. Franklin: That Kildare connection? Sparks: Mm-hmm. When one got a job, they made sure all the rest of them could get a job and come on out. We’re just one big happy family. Always have been, mm-hmm. Franklin: That’s wonderful. Sparks: You should come to our family reunion sometime. Franklin: I should. I think I know—I’ve interviewed about half of you so far. Sparks: Oh, honey. Franklin: I could get the other half in one fell swoop. Sparks: This church here will not hold all of us. Franklin: Yeah, it’s a big extended family. I’ve been finding that out— Sparks: That’s on both sides. That’s on both side, on momma’s side and on Daddy’s side. Now, see, I’m related to the Daniels on my daddy’s side. Mm-hmm, yep. And the Coles. Franklin: Yup. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, work, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: I just love the Lord because He changed the situation it was in the Tri-Cities. And just like He did it here, He’s going to do it other places, too. Now I can go to Kennewick and stay all day and don’t have no problem. Go over there and gas up and hit the street by the tracks and come on up the hill. [LAUGHTER] Don’t have no problem. Mm-mm. And you know, God can do anything but fail. And I always say, God had a purpose for you to go through something, so you realize what He could do for you. If you put your trust in Him. Now, you got to put your trust in God and depend on Him to open the pathway for you. And I’m a living witness, God have opened a lot of pathways that I didn’t think could ever be opened. Opened doors that I didn’t think would ever be open. God did all that. And I give Him the glory. Because He was the one worked on the people’s heart and caused them to have a turnaround and let them know that every one of you is My children. And I intend for every one of you to get along. And now you know, when some have them on dialysis, they say Reverend Sparks, can you do this for so-and-so-and-so-and-so? And I just say push me over then, I’ll pray for them right then and there, mm-hmm. We always supposed to be helpers, one to another. And when you help with one to another, you don’t have no problem. God is pleased with the road you traveling. I don’t know nobody that I dislike. Red, yellow, black, white, blue, whatever color. We all God’s children. Franklin: Well, Reverend, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us— Sparks: I thank you for taking time out to do what you’re doing in order to take the survey to help the peoples who have been here for a long time and know what you had to go through to get to where you at now. That’s a blessing. Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Only God can do that. Nobody else but God. And I just thank God for His business in it. Because if it hadn’t been for God on our side, where would—that’s why you breathing today. God could take that breath any time he get ready. But He know you doing a good job, and you pleasing Him and he’s satisfied with the work you doing. He says, I’m going to let him live a while longer. But be ready when he come. [LAUGHTER] Don’t let Him catch you with your work undone. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I appreciate it. Sparks: It pays to be with the Lord. Because he’s the way and the only way. I wouldn’t have no other before me except the Lord. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-1957 2006- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reverend Jeannette Sparks Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) McNary Lock and Dam (Or.) Basketball Segregation School integration Civil rights Description An account of the resource Reverend Jeannette Sparks moved to Pasco, Washington as a child in 1951. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/05/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3f162f5aa3da38abd4eb2c55f021f8f2.JPG 32f08072f06ed989d1d0de4d112e9771 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1ce147caacde437decefd3f6942428e0.mp4 88f1f286260106c3af59884404438778 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Stoffels Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jim Stoffels on July 13, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and his involvement with the organization, CORE. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Stoffels: James Stoffels. J-A-M-E-S. S-T-O-F-F-E-L-S. Franklin: Great, thanks, Jim. Tell me how you—well, I guess we’ll start from an earlier point. When did you come to Richland? Stoffels: I came to Richland in June 1962. Franklin: 1962. Okay. Where did you first live? Stoffels: I rented a two-bedroom prefab in Richland on Smith Avenue. 1026 Smith. Franklin: 1026 Smith. Stoffels: Which is no longer there. It’s been replaced by a modern home. Franklin: Yes. Yes, it has. I live like right by there, off of Thayer. It has been replaced. How did you first—did you have any involvement with civil rights before you came to Richland? Stoffels: No. No, I didn’t. Franklin: How did you first hear about the Congress On Racial Equality, or CORE? Stoffels: Well, some neighbors moved in to the house next to me, and they were Herb and Rindetta Jones. And Herb was the head of the local chapter of CORE, the Tri-Cities chapter. That’s how I got involved. Franklin: And it was you and your former wife. Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: What was your former wife’s name? Stoffels: Georgia. Franklin: Georgia. Do you remember what, approximately, year that was? Stoffels: No, I don’t. I know it was probably a couple years after I moved here, but I don’t remember. Franklin: Okay. The first year I found a mention of you or Georgia was 1965. Stoffels: Okay. Franklin: Does that sound about right? Stoffels: Yeah. I was going to say ’64, but— Franklin: ’64, ’65, okay. And what was your role within CORE during your time? Stoffels: Well, I became the secretary of the organization. Franklin: And what about your former wife? Stoffels: Well, she didn’t have an official position, but I took the minutes of meetings and she typed them. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: But I was the designated or the—I don’t know if we were elected or what—I was the secretary. Franklin: What drove you to join CORE? Stoffels: Well, I certainly knew about the black civil rights movement, and certainly supported it. So that was it. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: Well, segregation was one, certainly, because at that time, all of the African Americans, the blacks, the Negroes, as they were called then, lived in Pasco, literally east of the railroad tracks in Pasco. But other than that, I really can’t speak to what other issues there were. I imagine, discrimination probably in employment and in housing, certainly. Because, for example, Kennewick had no black people living in that city. Franklin: What did CORE do to address the situation in Kennewick? Stoffels: Well, I don’t recall if we specifically did anything in terms of Kennewick. The thing I remember most is the one march we had in Pasco. There was quite a considerable turnout for that. We gathered in front of the courthouse in Pasco. I guess we had some kind of a program there, but then we marched from there over to east Pasco. And I think our destination, as I recall, was Morning Star Baptist Church. Franklin: What was the goal of the march? Or what were you raising awareness for? Stoffels: Well, just the general issue of, you know, civil rights for African Americans. Discrimination, segregation. Franklin: Did you work with any African Americans out at Hanford? Did you see many African Americans out on the job? Stoffels: No. Franklin: No? Stoffels: No. There weren’t any in the group that I was in. I did know—yes, I did know one or two. They were not professionals; they were, you know, blue collar workers. Franklin: Did it seem that African Americans were mostly restricted to blue collar work at that time? Stoffels: I would say yes, yeah. Yeah. You know, I didn’t think about it at the time, I don’t think, in that context. But I would certainly say that was the case. Franklin: Do you remember a march in Kennewick at all? Stoffels: No, I don’t, I don’t. Franklin: Okay. So you said that Herb and Rindetta were your neighbors. Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: And they were African American, right? Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: And I assume over the years you developed a close relationship with them? Stoffels: Well, I wouldn’t say I was close, because it didn’t last that long. I can’t remember when they moved away. And then I think that’s when, probably, the chapter of CORE here went out of existence. Franklin: What do you remember about Herb and Rindetta? Stoffels: Well, just, you know, they were a nice couple and they had two children. I don’t know what Herb did, what his profession or employment was. But then they moved away to Yakima. Franklin: Oh, okay. What do you remember about anyone else in the Tri-Cities CORE? Did you form any other lasting relationships or professional or personal relationships with anyone else? Stoffels: Well, I remember the Brounses; Dick and Nyla Brouns were in it, and we belonged to the same church. And Norm and Shirley Miller were in it. In later years, they were active in World Citizens for Peace. They were regulars on the sidewalk when we were protesting our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Franklin: Oh, later in the 2000s. Stoffels: Yeah, right. Franklin: Yeah. Stoffels: And the ‘80s. Franklin: Oh, right, right. Yeah. What were the concerns of CORE in Richland? Was there a problem with housing or employment in the City of Richland? Stoffels: Yeah, there was. And there was—at one point there was some kind of, I think, a housing commission set up by the city. I remember some meeting I attended that had to do with that issue, and there was a gentleman there, a black gentleman. I can’t remember what his name was, but I think he was an attorney. At any rate, I went to this meeting, and the members of this board, at least some of them, were realtors. And I didn’t understand that. So I went up after the meeting and talked to this man, and he just—you know, I was very naïve, and he just, you know, set me straight about, that’s the way it is. That some of the people that are on that board, not to promote the intended purpose, to frustrate the intended purpose of housing. Franklin: Right. What was the concern of the realtors in selling homes or renting homes to— Stoffels: I can’t speak to that. I don’t know. I just— Franklin: Okay. What do you remember about efforts to end discrimination at private clubs like the Elks? Stoffels: I think we had some demonstrations over at the Elks in Kennewick. But, you know, that’s about as much as I remember. I remember that it was an issue. Franklin: Yeah. Stoffels: And I think we did some demonstrations. But I can’t be sure of that. Franklin: Were there any threats or intimidations to either CORE members, white or black, or to African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the civil rights era? Stoffels: Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge. Franklin: Okay. How did the rise of black nationalist groups, like the Panthers and Nation of Islam, affect CORE? Stoffels: Well, I think by the time that happened, I think our local chapter of CORE was out of existence. And I don’t know how long CORE nationally lasted. I mean, it doesn’t exist nowadays. NAACP is the main black/African-American civil rights organization promoting that cause. Franklin: What was the relationship between CORE and NAACP? Stoffels: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I don’t remember, you know, I don’t know when local NAACP formed. I don’t know if it was before or after CORE. The fact that CORE arose leads me to believe that perhaps NAACP hadn’t organized yet. But I don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Hmm. To your knowledge, did any of the black nationalist groups form in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: No. No. No, there was no one that was that militant. Franklin: What was the relationship between Richland residents working for the betterment of African Americans in east Pasco and the residents of east Pasco? Was there ever tension between the groups? Stoffels: Not that I’m aware of. I mean, we in Richland were comfortable and isolated and weren’t bothered. Franklin: Okay. What were some of the notable successes of CORE in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: I don’t know. I don’t know what we can point to as a success. I don’t know what we could take credit for. I think, you know, our purpose was to raise awareness, and certainly working for equality and open housing, integration and those things. But I don’t know that we, as a group, can claim any success in that area. But I think it’s certainly part of what ultimately did take place, in terms of integrating. And certainly—well, the fact that a black couple, family, in CORE was the first family—white family—to move into Kennewick. The Slaughters, John and Mary Slaughter, and their children. So they personally can chalk that up as a victory. Franklin: Right, kind of helping to break the— Stoffels: Break the color barrier. Franklin: Yeah, to break the color barrier there. What were some of the biggest challenges? Stoffels: I don’t know how to answer that. Franklin: You mentioned working to raise awareness. How—was one of the missions of CORE—was there a general acceptance of the group in the Tri-Cities, or kind of, you know—or rejection or just kind of a antipathy to the message? Stoffels: Well, I’m not aware of any general response. I mean, we were there and did what we did, and I’m not aware of any backlash from the community. You know, the African American members of the community could certainly address that better than I. Franklin: The Brouns and the Millers, two other white couples that participated in CORE, told me that at times they felt social pressure or work pressure from their involvement in CORE. Stoffels: Oh, really? Franklin: Yeah, that they had had supervisors or friends question them or chide them for their agitation. I’m wondering if you had ever experienced— Stoffels: No. Franklin: --anything like that in your work or personal life? Stoffels: No, I never did. And I wasn’t even aware of it, you know, on their part. Franklin: Okay. I think that is all of my questions. Stoffels: Oh, okay. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: The other thing I remember is that Georgia and I once hosted a party at our house for the CORE group. I remember, we had it in the basement, and I remember the Barneses were there, Dallas and Lozie Barnes. And I don’t remember who else. One person I remember is Dick—god, I don’t remember his last name. Anyway, he—god, senior moment. He later moved to Seattle and he became—at one point he was, I think, a member of the state legislature. God, I can’t think—Dick—I can’t remember. And there were a couple of musicians there, and I was thinking of their names the other day. Now I can’t think of it. It was a member. White man. Zane Casey. That’s it, I think. Zane Casey. And maybe it was he and his wife that just were a little two-person band. Franklin: What was the purpose of the party? Stoffels: I can’t remember if it was a Christmas party or what. It might’ve been a Christmas party. Franklin: Any other memories from your time? Stoffels: No. No. I’m trying to remember where we were when we met. I can’t remember if we met at the Morning Star Church or where. Franklin: From the notes, it seemed like you—the group would meet twice a month, once in Pasco and then once either in Richland or Pasco. Morning Star seemed to be a popular place, as well as, there was like a diner in the east side of Pasco, I believe you met at. And then sometimes in Richland, you’d meet at—or sometimes at Richland or Kennewick, you’d meet at individual people’s homes. Stoffels: Oh, yeah. Franklin: And once I saw that— Stoffels: Brounses, maybe? Franklin: Yes, the Brounses. Stoffels: Yeah, right. Franklin: And once at your house. Stoffels: And once they met at our house, too? Oh, okay. Yeah, I don’t remember meeting at the diner. But I do remember Morning Star Baptist Church. We were there a number of times. Franklin: Did you have a close relationship with—did CORE work with Morning Star and the other black churches in its activities? Stoffels: Well, you know, Herb is the head of the organization and, as a black person, I imagine, he did all of that. In terms of making those arrangements. I don’t remember—they might have gone—his family might have gone to that church. I don’t know. Franklin: And you went to Christ the King? Stoffels: Christ the King, yeah. Franklin: With the Browns? Stoffels: Brouns. The Brounses. And how did you get in touch with Kathy? Franklin: I got her name from a friend of mine, Tanya Bowers, because people had mentioned—someone was in contact with the Brouns. There’s one or two of the sons still live here locally. Stoffels: Yeah, Tom does. I know Tom and his wife. Franklin: Yeah, and I called her or emailed her and we had a correspondence and she was— Stoffels: Yeah, because Kathy lives over in Seattle. Franklin: Yeah, she was passing through on the way to Boise for a wedding and stopped by and she brought a file that I gathered a lot of information from. Stoffels: Oh, for heaven’s sakes. Franklin: Yeah, it’s been a lot of good coincidences for the project. That’s how I found your name and I was like, oh, I know Jim. Stoffels: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, let me see here, I might have one or other question. Well, I guess I’ll just go with the ending question. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to segregation, civil rights, how they impacted your life or others in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: I really can’t think of anything. I mean, the thing that I gained out of it is the sense of community with black people. I annually go to the Martin Luther King commemoration over at CBC and I see people there, like the Barneses and the Mitchells. CJ Mitchell is deceased now, but the Mitchells lived just a couple blocks from us. Their daughter, Vanessa, babysat for us. Franklin: Oh, really? Stoffels: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: With our two young—our first two daughters. Franklin: Oh, okay. Yeah, I know Vanessa really well. Stoffels: So I always reminisce whenever I see her, and that’s at, usually, at that Martin Luther King event. Franklin: So it was important, then, for you to be an ally of the civil rights movement? Stoffels: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure, I mean, that’s why I was there. Just like World Citizens for Peace. I’m there because it’s important to me. Franklin: Yeah. Did you transition to World Citizens for Peace after CORE or did your activism in CORE— Stoffels: Oh, no, there was a long time between those two. Because we founded World Citizens for Peace in 1982. And that was in response to Reagan, President Reagan’s goal of building 17,000 new nuclear warheads in the ‘80s. In between, I was on the city council in Richland in the ‘70s for four years. I was elected in ’71, I believe it was, and served for four years. Couldn’t wait to get off. Franklin: Yeah? Stoffels: Yeah. Well, I didn’t want to—there was a specific issue at that time. And I and a whole group of people were—got together around that issue. It was that the city council was extending water and sewer lines to what’s now south Richland, to the Meadow Springs area. They were going to be paid through the bills of all the people in the existing city. They had no policies for extending lines and assessing the ones who are served by it. So, we, this group, wanted to replace the members of the council who had voted for that. I think there were three positions open. Two of them, members of the group filed an opposition to. And there was nobody for opposing the mayor. I tried to get someone else to, you know. And nobody would. So, out of a sense of responsibility, I filed, and I replaced the incumbent mayor. Not as mayor, because the mayor is chosen by the council. Franklin: Right. Stoffels: But as a—so I never really wanted to be on it, but I was. That was like a half-time job for me for those years. It really took a lot of my time. Franklin: Yeah. That certainly does. Stoffels: And at the time, it was not a paid position like it is now. Franklin: Oh. Stoffels: There was a stipend of $500 a year. And the last thing I did before I went off the council is I proposed an ordinance that the councilmembers should be paid, you know, as a part-time job. And it was adopted. Of course, I never got it, because something like that, you can’t get the benefit of, unless you’re elected again. Franklin: Right. Interesting. Stoffels: But I thought that was very important, because the lack of that meant that the councilmembers were predominantly members of the business community. So, they looked out for the business interests. And I thought, well, that’s not representative government. We needed to have that be a paid position, as a part-time paid position, so that the average John or Jane could run and be remunerated for their work. Franklin: Right, yeah. Makes sense. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming— Stoffels: Yeah, you’re welcome. Franklin: --and sitting down with us and talking about your time in CORE. Stoffels: My pleasure. Good to reminisce about those years. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1962- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Stoffels Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Civil rights Civil rights movements Segregation Discrimination Description An account of the resource Jim Stoffels moved to Richland, Washington in 1962 and was involved in local civil rights movements. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/13/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F103b0c7bf5df4cc1528773c4d2f5abf9.JPG ae8d37a31f4f12937d8d6885f09cefef https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F502a26d806a6426eb62a58555a9abfab.mp4 ef746618043499209119789934947ebb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Wallace Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: So, I wanted to ask you, going back a little bit, I wanted to ask you about education. You’d mentioned the schools you went to, but I wanted to ask, how did segregation or racism affect your education? Edward Wallace: It wasn’t bad by the time I came along, you know? Pretty much blended in with the class. Wasn’t like my sisters’ or something like that. Franklin: Were they older? Wallace: Yeah. Franklin: How did it affect them? Wallace: Well, the one you were going to talk to, I guess they got called names all the time. So, I said, well, what about the two older ones? The brothers? And she goes, oh, they loved those guys, because they played sports. You know? They go, but us girls, man, nobody would date us or ask us out or—you know? They go, forget about prom. I think my oldest sister went to prom, and I remember the picture of her. But I think that—yeah, I think his family lived in Richland, too, but I can’t remember, they didn’t live here very long. But as far as me, I was just always shy anyway. I grew up pretty much they had to walk up to me and tell me where we were going and I’d show up. [LAUGHTER] Because I was concentrating on, after school I was usually either picking up my brother or sister—my little brother and my sister—or I was going to go practice with somebody or something else. I remember this one girl asked me, are you going to the football game Friday night? And I’m like, well, I really hadn’t planned on it. But I’d been saying hi to her ever since junior high and smiling at her. It wasn’t until, like, two hours later after school, I’m thinking, what the hell is wrong with you? She was basically asking you if you were going to be at the game, so you know. So I go to the game and I know exactly where she sits because I’d been there before and her and her buddies sit in one spot. So I walked by there looking for her and she’s not there. I’m like, oh, man, that’s too bad. Didn’t see her after that, except around school. And she didn’t talk to me after that or nothing, so I said, oh well. Franklin: Who were some of the people that influenced you as a child? Wallace: You mean, just people? Franklin: Yeah. Like people who were important in your life. Family members, friends, teachers. Wallace: [LAUGHTER] Well, that’s a funny question. Probably my parents. Franklin: How so? Wallace: My brother that’s two years older than me. Because he had an opinion about everything pretty much. I was kind of like, oh, okay, that makes sense, you know, even though it didn’t. But probably more them than anyone else. Because I didn’t go out much, like I said. I was—for me to actually go out and just hang out with people and stuff like that, it was not very often. I was pretty boring guy. Franklin: Oh, come on now. Wallace: No, I was. And it wasn’t until I got to know somebody a little bit that I would talk with them. Franklin: Yeah. Wallace: I remember in high school, a couple of girls walk up to me and go, how come you’re not on the basketball team? And I go, because I don’t like being yelled at. They go, I’d think you’d want to be popular. And I go, I don’t. And they’re like--they gave me this look like they couldn’t believe it. Anyway. As far as teachers go, I don’t think I paid enough attention to any of them to really—[LAUGHTER] I think, elementary school I remember three teachers’ names, and junior high maybe two. High school, you’d think you’d remember most of your teachers’ names; I only remember a couple. So, I know elementary school, I remember Mrs. Hutchison, which was my kindergarten teacher. And then I think Mrs. Graham was my second grade teacher? Then Mr. Lane. Mr. Lane, he’s the one who gave me hacks for not bring my book to school. So I remember him. He gave us—I was a patrol kid, one of the patrol boys. And we were folding the flag one time, and one of the kids dropped one corner. Before it touched the ground, I grabbed it and pulled it back up and we finished folding. And the next day, we got hacks because someone said that it hit the ground. You can’t let the flag hit the ground. So we got hacks for that. Of course, it didn’t hurt. I remember the other kid walking out of there crying. And they go, god, Wallace, how come you’re not crying? And I go, well if you ever got a spanking from my dad, you’d know why. Because when he spanks you, he spanks you. I mean, you jumped and as soon as your feet hit the ground, he got you again. But you know, it wasn’t like he beat you up or anything, he just, hitting you with a stick or a belt or whatever. So we weren’t brutalized or anything. Franklin: Did you have any other—did you have any role models in the community or anything? Or anyone that when you were coming up, anyone you kind of looked up to? Wallace: Nah. [LAUGHTER] I really don’t—I don’t know if I’m just a negative person or not, but I really don’t remember—I probably looked up to Mr. Piggy, because he had a pretty calm demeanor, and he was kid of like me in a lot of ways. Franklin: Who was this? Wallace: His name was Mr. Piggy. Franklin: Oh, one of the families. Wallace: Yeah, yeah. His name was Robert Piggy. He worked out there as a coal handler. But we kind of had the same demeanor, in a way. He was a little more outgoing, but he cracked me up. And he always drove a Volkswagen bug, and he had a hat kind of like yours on all the time, different hats. But everything he did was like on the money. Franklin: What were some of the—what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time there? Wallace: During my time? Franklin: Yeah. Wallace: I would say, during my time there, the fact that I got fired because of a racial thing. That kind of did a couple things to me. First, I realized that—well, see, he wrote me up, first thing was for sleeping on the job, okay? It didn’t matter how long I slept during the day when I could get sleep, when I got to work, got changed for graveyard shift—only for graveyard shift—that first two hours, I could barely stay awake. Matter of fact, I started smoking just to stay awake. That’s how I started smoking, was just to stay awake, and even that didn’t help. I’d put it out, and—chh—be gone. But after that first two hours, I was good for the rest of the night. So, I used to get up and go walk around just to stay awake. And as soon as I went back and sat down—pff—gone. But he wrote me up for sleeping on the job. But not because I was falling asleep in front of everybody. And believe it or not, that first two hours is when he made his rounds. But there was a guy that came back from vacation, and he would go into the break room and go to sleep. So when he got back, he told me, Ed, I want you to be with this guy. You’re not asking enough questions, you’re not really learning the things we want you to. So I want you to hang around with this guy. Okay? Now, before this guy got back, we had some kind of birthday party and the chief was back in the lunchroom, and the alarm went off, saying boiler pressure was going up too high. So I went back and told him. And I said, hey, the boiler pressure’s going up and the alarm’s going off. And he said, yeah, go ahead and acknowledge it and I’ll be out there in a minute. So I acknowledged it, and it’s still going up. So I go back, and I tell him again, and he goes, yeah, just go ahead and acknowledge it. He goes, what’s it up to? And I told him. He goes, yeah, just go ahead and acknowledge it. So, yeah, I’d read the whole manual, how to run this thing, right? So, third time, I go up there and acknowledge it and I turn the water flow down. Because, you know, it was getting a couple of ticks away from going into the red. He comes back, probably 15 minutes later. And he goes, man, that pressure’s just about where I like to keep it. And I go, yeah. He goes, I thought you said the alarm was going off. I said, it was, so I just cut it back a couple notches. He goes, well, how’d you know to do that? And I go, well, there’s no adjustment on the flames, there’s no adjustment on how much oil you put through it, which creates the flame, of course. I go, you can’t adjust how much flame you’ve got, so the only thing I could figure was you had to turn the water down and I believe, if I remember right, that’s what it said in the manual anyway. The pressure gets high, you cut back the water flow. And he was like, damn. You should be a chief. [LAUGHTER] He goes, most of these guys wouldn’t know what to do. And I go, I’ve always tinkered with stuff, you know. Anyways, so for the boss coming in and telling me, yeah, you’re not learning anything that we want you to learn, so he puts me with this guy. And so that guy goes, well, after we did our rounds, he goes, I’m going to go in and take a nap. And I go, well, I’m going to try and stay awake, so I’m going to hang out here and talk to the guys. I’ll probably fall asleep anyway, but—and he goes, well, nope—his name was Freymeyer, my boss. He says, Freymeyer said to stay with you, stay with me. He goes, so, you’re going to stay here with me. And I go, oh, okay! So they had some magazines, so I see one on cars, I pick it up and start reading it. And next thing I know they’re like, busting the door open. And they’re like, oh, you guys are in here sleeping. And I’m like, what’s the deal? This guy does this every night, you know? Well, I’m going to have to write you up. Well, I didn’t know he wrote the other guy up, too. I guess he decided he just didn’t like him. So, I found out later he wrote him up too. He never fired him, but he did write him up. So the next thing I got wrote up for was coming in late. I come in one night within five minutes. My boss is standing out there with his boss, the operations manager. As soon as—I’m looking right at him, I recognize him from the parking lot. And as soon as I come through the gate, they kind of turn away and start pointing at other stuff. And I’m like, I know that guy’s out here just for me. I’ve never seen those two stand and have a conversation. So sure enough, a week later, I got wrote up for being late. Now, the next time, I’m waiting for—I’m unloading—they brought the oil in in trucks, tanker trucks. So I’m waiting for another shipment, and I guess we’re really low because there was going to be like three of them that night. So I’d had the job before, and I knew the sign said, stay at least 20 feet—or no smoking within 20 feet. So, I’m not only 20 feet from the place; I’m like down here where you load the truck and start the pump to pump the oil over. So I know I’m at least 50 feet away, right? And I’m just kind of walking back and forth. But I’m not walking towards the tank, I’m just going back and forth vertically the other way. Between the river and the road. Him and his buddy pulls up, his little fat buddy, Rich. He pulls up and they go, hey, Wallace, what are you doing? And I go, I’m waiting for the next truck to come in. Well, I’d noticed when I got there, the tanks had been painted, and there was no signs up. But I already knew I had to be at least 20 feet away. So I’m 50 feet away. And they go, well, you’re not supposed to smoke within 20 feet of those tanks. And I go, I’m not smoking within 20 feet of them. I go, this is at least 50. And he goes, nah, you’re within 20. So he writes me up for that. So a few weeks later, I’m on vacation, I get a phone call from HR. They say, well, you’ve been released from work. And I’m like, for what? They go, well, you’ve been written up three times. So I go, well, it’s nice you called me while I’m vacation, you know? I’d taken the week off, and they called me like on the second day. So I’m like, it would’ve been nicer to do this in person, don’t you think? And they just hung up the phone, right? So, they called me back a few hours later and told me where to turn my badge in at and everything. So I went and turned my badge in. Walked away, thinking, wow, what assholes. I’m going to sue them. So, I got this lawyer up in Seattle. Because I know all the lawyers around here were bought off a long time ago. I was pretty much told that by one of the union reps. And I had a consult with him. He said, yeah, he goes, let me get the records and everything and then you can come back up and we’ll talk about it. So I walk in, and he goes, well, Ed, he goes, I would really like to represent you, but it’s not going to do any good. And I go, why not? He goes, well, you signed every one of those. Which meant that you’ve seen it and you acknowledged it. Even though you made the note on there that you don’t agree with it, just the fact that you signed it is enough. He goes, but that’s not all. He goes, and then there’s this. And he reaches over and he gets this thing that’s this thick. And I go, what the heck is that? And he goes, well, that’s all the other things about your behavior and everything. And I’m like, what?! He goes, oh, yeah, this guy spent some time on this. There’s notes in there from people you probably don’t even know. And I go, how do you know that? He goes, well, because where they work. They work in town. You worked out at the Site. And they’ve got comments about your behavior in there. And I go, oh. I’m like, I guess the joke’s on me. This guy’s really got his act together as far as getting rid of someone. So, I said, well. Wasn’t about two days later this guy calls me up and goes, Ed, I’m going to start up a band. I need another guitar player. And I said, hmm! Sounds like fun. Franklin: Right, that’s when you started the band? Wallace: So that’s when I started playing. Franklin: So, I’ve got one question left and hopefully it won’t take too long. Wallace: Okay. Franklin: My favorite question to ask. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Wallace: What would I like future generations to know? Well, first of all, the government is great. And it basically does what it’s supposed to do, for the most part. But there are things that they don’t tell you, and there’s things that can harm you that they don’t tell you about. I’ll give you a for instance. When I hired on as a janitor, a guy that was showing me around said, I’m going to show you two places you never want to go. He took me down to C Plant. He goes, okay, that’s a place you never want to get a job at, because once you go in there, you can never get out. He said, you see that place across the street? And I go, yeah. He goes, I don’t know for sure, but you need a higher clearance to even walk up to that building. He goes, and I’ve been told that they’re making these lenses for being able to see from outer space back to here. But that’s just what I heard; I don’t know anything about it. He goes, and neither do you. But stay away from that building. No matter what. He goes, I don’t care if your truck breaks down, you go someplace else and make a phone call. Do not go near that building. Okay? Years later, I come back and we’ve been in the—my group of 35 had been in the building working for about two years, and the training was right there in the facility. Well, they moved training out to that building. So we spend about five, six years going to that building for training, take our tests and our recertifications and everything. And then all of a sudden, that building is shut down and the training is back in the building, the main facility, and then they put up a trailer at the end of the parking lot. That’s the new training department. Okay, so another five years goes by. You’re like, you’re looking at this building going, I wonder why they shut that thing down. No one ever tells you anything. So five years later, you’re in this class and it’s about beryllium. And then they tell you, well, these are beryllium facilities and if you’ve worked in any of these facilities, you need to be on the list to be checked for beryllium sensitivity. Then they tell you how beryllium builds up in your lungs and how your body attacks it. But it can’t do anything, and once it happens and you start having a reaction to it, you need to go in every now and then to have your lungs cleaned out just so they can function. And you’re on oxygen. These are the buildings. And guess which one one of them was? The one we’d been going to training for five years that they—I mean, they didn’t leave part of it open; they closed the whole building up and sealed it up. Everybody else is like, laughing and joking. And I’m like, pissed. So I’m like, I asked the teacher, I go, why’d you wait so long to tell us what was going on with that? Because we’d started hearing about the beryllium tests and stuff. They were testing our tools and we had beryllium tools that we used, they called them non-sparking tools that were made of beryllium. We used them for opening cans and stuff that might have gases in it. So I’m sitting there, and I’m just getting pissed off. I’m like, well, you mean in the building that we spent five years doing training in is filled with beryllium? And we’re just now hearing about it? That’s the reason they closed it off? And now you’re telling us what beryllium will do to you? And he goes, well, you know, the truth is, people used to not live that long. People used to live to only like barely past their 60s. So most of the stuff, they figured it would never affect you. But now we got guys living into their 80s who are coming down with this beryllium problem. I go, so you’re taking these 80-year-old guys and washing their lungs out? I’m like, you got to be kidding me. Franklin: Wow. Wallace: So you know, I used to always wear my coveralls. And when all the new kids came in, they would run around the place in their regular street clothes. And I told them, I said—they’d always ask me, Ed, how come you wear your coveralls all the time? And I go, well, number one, when I get hot I sweat a little bit. So I might as well just take a shower, put on my clothes that I wore in this morning, and go home with it. I go, plus, when they say places are clean, like where we’re at now, I go, if you want to take that home, you got to take it in to the HPT office, which is radiation protection, they have to go through it, make sure it’s thoroughly clean before they’ll release it so you can take it home. I go, now you’re sitting in the lunchroom. So you don’t know what you’re picking up along the way when you go to do any job. I go, so I’m not going to sit here in my street clothes and wear my street clothes home not knowing what’s on them. They said, oh man, get out of here. I go, okay. I go, you keep wearing your street clothes. I go, but one day when you slip out of here with something on you and the detectors don’t pick it up outside, and you get home and you’ve crapped your wife up and your kids and your whole house has to be cleaned, I go, don’t say I didn’t warn you. Franklin: Well, Ed, I don’t want to keep you too much longer. Wallace: Okay. Franklin: But thank you. Thank you for the interview. It was a pleasure. Wallace: All right. Franklin: Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming down today. Wallace: Ah, no problem. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Wallace Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) School integration Description An account of the resource An interview with Edward Wallace conducted as park of a National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/10/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb9a8ea9be9f00d6ba6f3188d6d9d9f4.png 2fa7b460111a708fe614a230c0e2c9cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Webster Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: We ready? Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Wally Webster on July 20, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Wally about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Wally Webster: Wallace Webster. I go by Wally. That’s W-E-B-S-T-E-R, is the spelling of my last name. Franklin: And what about the first name? Webster: The first name is W-A-L-L-A-C-E. Franklin: Great. Thanks, Wally. Webster: Okay. Franklin: So, tell me how—well, let’s talk about, let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. When and where were you born, and where did you live before coming to the Tri-Cities? Webster: Okay. I was born in a small town east of Mobile, Alabama, called Theodore. And if you go down there, they say The-do. But I graduated from high school. I immediately left Alabama and made a very quick stop in Oakland, California, and then headed for Pasco, Washington. Franklin: And what— Webster: So I’ve been here since 1962. Franklin: 1962. And what year were you born? Webster: I was born in 1944. Franklin: Okay. And what—so you said you had graduated—went to school in Theodore, Alabama. I wonder if you could talk about your education there, back in Alabama and kind of the prevailing situation there. Webster: Okay. That’s a good point, because it lends to my activities in Pasco. I went to school in a segregated school system. I graduated from high school. It was still segregated at that time. So, when I graduated from high school, I knew then that there was a better place that I could live. I didn’t know where that was, so I went to Oakland, California for a short period of time to live with my brother. Then I get an opportunity from my uncle to move to Pasco. In fact, he asked me to help him drive to Pasco. When I helped him drive to Pasco, I didn’t go back to Oakland. So that’s how I got here. And again, I was very, very familiar with segregation whether it was de facto or institutionalized. When I got to Pasco, I was surprised at the de facto segregation that I found in Pasco, which was very, very similar to what I experienced in Alabama. Franklin: Really? Wallace: Yes. Franklin: More similar to Alabama than in Oakland? Wallace: Yes. I didn’t stay in Oakland very long, so I can’t speak a lot to Oakland. But when I got to Pasco, all the black people, or 90% of the black people living in east Pasco. The schools that—the elementary school was Whittier School. It was completely black, with the exception of maybe a few white students that came from the north side of Pasco. That didn’t seem right. I thought I was leaving that behind me when I took the Greyhound bus and left Alabama. Matter of fact, it was somewhat disturbing after a while and learning the city, that I became very active—and some people would say an activist—but I became very active in helping, or doing something about breaking down that system. Franklin: Yeah. What did your parents do in Alabama? Webster: My mom was a stay-home mom. My dad was a laborer and a minister. He worked at an air force base. It’s closed now. It’s called Brookley Field Air Force Base in Mobile, Alabama, which was about ten or twelve miles east of Theodore. Franklin: What was your father—what were your parents’ levels of education? Webster: My dad was quite literate but he only went to the eighth grade, and my mom was probably the sixth or seventh grade. They had five kids and four of the five got advanced degrees from universities. And the older one, he left home and became a construction laborer and became a journeyman painter and drywaller. Of the five of us, as I said earlier, we all got advanced college degrees and they insisted on us getting an education and doing better in life than what they were doing. Franklin: Was Theodore—so Theodore was a segregated town as well? Webster: Yes. And it was segregated from the standpoint of all black people lived in one section of Theodore and all the whites lived in another section. Sometime that may have been across the road, but there was a dividing point. When I was going to school, a school bus would pick up the white students that lived down the road from me, but we all had to walk to school. So I saw that kind of discrimination all of my life. The one thing that I will point out is you become acclimated to that condition after you’ve lived in it a long time, and it became another way of life—or a way of life. You don’t really understand it until you go someplace else and see the difference. Maybe the first eye-opener I had was the very short time I lived in Oakland. It was more integrated than where I lived in Theodore. Then when I came to Pasco, I was more shocked, because I could see identically to what I saw and experienced and lived in, in Alabama. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned your uncle asked you to help drive a truck up here. Did you have family in the area? Webster: In this area? Franklin: Yeah. Webster: He was my only. Franklin: And how did he get here? Webster: As I understand it, and I think I’m probably 90% accurate, when he got out of the military, out of the Army, he joined the labor movement. At that time, the labor movement, or migration, was from the Oakland military installations down there up to Hanford, where they were constructing all kinds of buildings and programs here. And then they migrated on up to Anchorage, Alaska and worked there during the summer months and then they came back to this area. He decided that he no longer wanted to migrate with the construction industry. He worked construction here for a while. But he built a building and in it he housed three businesses. One was a restaurant, the other one was a pool hall, and the other one was a beer tavern. Franklin: Was this in east Pasco? Webster: In east Pasco. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember the names of these places? Webster: Yes, it was Jack’s Grill and Pit, was the name of it. Franklin: And that was, the three businesses were Jack’s Grill and Pit? Webster: Yeah, and they were all under that title. And they had separate walls and separate buildings. When he came down to Oakland, it was about October, I think, and he came down to the World Series, as a matter of fact. I think the Giants and the Dodgers were playing at that time. And then I came back up here with him. Franklin: Wow. What were your first impressions when you arrived in Pasco? Webster: Well, I liked the city, I liked where I lived. Like I said earlier, once I got here, I never did go back to Oakland. So I liked it a whole lot better than I did Oakland. But as I got to learn the city, I became more aware that it was not much different from where I came. And as I studied it more, and got to know more people, those individuals came from the same states and cities that I was familiar with: Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana. They had come here, also, with the labor migration. I couldn’t understand for a long time why all of the black folks was concentrated east of Pasco, which was on the other side of the railroad tracks. So as I got to talk to more people and got to learn about them, I quickly learned that many of them were very pleased to have a job and to work and make a living for their families, and accepted the housing that was available. That housing was in east Pasco. Franklin: Right. And they kind of accepted—for a time, accepted the de facto segregation. Webster: Oh, absolutely, yes, yes. And I’ll tell you, the thing that I liked about east Pasco, a great deal, which was similar to where I lived in Theodore, we all knew each other and knew each other very well. I don’t know if there was a person in Pasco at that time that I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me, after I’d been there for six or eight months or so. So that’s how I got to know who they are, where they came from, who their families were. And then it became obvious that something was wrong. And a little bit more about myself, when I first got to Pasco and enrolled at Columbia Basin College, on the way up, my uncle was talking to me about my goals and opportunities and what I wanted to do in life. We had thirteen, fourteen hours together to do that. And I said I wanted to go to college, because that’s something my dad and mom had popped into our head. But I left home before I enrolled in college. So he took me to Columbia Basin College in January, that was the beginning of the quarter. After meeting with counselors and talking to them, I was told that I was not college material. That my education was not up to par, and they didn’t think I could make it through college. That was very disappointing to me. I met a gentleman that I admire to this day. He heard my story. He was an administrator or coach or something at Columbia Basin. He talked to me about majoring or taking accounting. He explained it this way: he said, it can take you three hours to work a problem; it could take the next person 30 minutes. But if you come up with the same answer, what difference does it make? As long as you have the fortitude to stick with it and get it done. You also can check it to make sure it’s accurate. That’s what steered me into accounting, finance. And I spent 30-some years in banking and finance. Franklin: Do you remember his name? Webster: His name was Sig Hansen. Franklin: Sig? Webster: Yeah, S-I-G. I never will forget his name the rest of my life. He was probably one of the most inspirational individuals, from an education or career that I’ve met in my life. Franklin: And did you graduate from CBC? Webster: Twice. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t have a WSU campus out here at that time. Franklin: Sure. What did you get degrees in? Webster: Well, one was applied science and the other was business, with a business emphasis, yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. What was the first place you stayed in after you arrived here? Webster: It’s no longer there, but I stayed at 725 South Hugo Street in east Pasco. It was A Street going towards Sacagawea Park. That’s where my uncle, not only had he built a business with three entities in it, he also had built an apartment building on the hill up there that had three or four apartments in it. The one apartment, he built especially for himself to live in. So I lived with him. Franklin: Your uncle sounds like quite the entrepreneur. Webster: Yes, no question about that. He left here after Urban Renewal purchased his property, and went to California. He went to Oakland because we had a lot of relatives in Oakland. He went there and opened a couple of businesses. So, yes, he was definitely an entrepreneur. Franklin: So it was basically an apartment. Webster: Yes, it was an apartment. Franklin: An apartment in a building that he owned. Webster: Yes, yes. It was an apartment building with four units in it, and he lived in the major unit in that building. Franklin: Gotcha, gotcha. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Webster: Well, after I started Columbia Basin College, I never will forget for the rest of my life—this. I was in a business class, a business machine class. I had never operated a full-key add machine at that time. So I’m struggling. And this young lady sitting behind me came over to help me put my hands on the right home keys on this machine. She just came over, and she leaned over, and her hair fell kind of on my shoulder. A white female. And I can remember—I became so petrified that I could not move. My whole body froze. Because I was conditioned in Alabama that not only didn’t you look at a white woman, especially, but to have her hair hanging over your shoulder, across, is tantamount to being lynched. That was an absolute no-no. And I never will forget. It frightened her, it frightened me. We remained friends for a long time after that, but that was one of the things that helped me understand that I had been preconditioned to something that I had to get over. The second thing was—I mentioned Whittier School. I went to a segregated school, and I knew you can get comfortable. And I knew that when I left there and I went over to CBC, they told me that I was not up to par with my education. Something said to me that these kids are probably not up to par, either. So there has to be a reason why all black kids are going to school here and all white kids are going to school someplace else. Well, I know that a few of the parents were comfortable sending their kids to Whittier because it was close to home, they were afraid that if—because I was advocating close the school down, as opposed to bussing white kids in. They felt that it would drop the property value, also. Not only convenient as having their kids going down the street, but property values. But I was able to prevail in the thought and we pressed upon the school board, we marched, we demonstrated with enough parents, and they made the decision to close Whittier School. Later they tore the building down. But I just did not feel that they could get the right education. And then in this process, I learned that a lot of people were not registered to vote. This is a story—I guess the statute of limitations is expired now. But I was only, at that time, I was 17 or 18. But I was not old enough to vote. The voting age at that time was still 21. Went to a couple of the—well, the two major parties, the democrats and republican parties to get a voter registration going. The democrats in this case said I was too young to register people to vote. I learned from that experience. I went to the republicans and they agreed that I could register people to vote, but I could not sign the application as the registrar. So I took it upon myself at that point to conduct a voter registration drive, and we registered more people—I would basically hang out where my uncle’s business was and went in the community some organizations. I don’t recall this day how many people we registered, but it was definitely in the hundreds. That was one way of getting people engaged in changing the environment in which we lived. In Alabama, you could vote, but you had to play a poll tax. You had to pass an exam, then pay a poll tax to vote. And here all you had to do was go down and fill out the application and then turn it in. Franklin: I think that the poll tax and the exam is something that’s so foreign to a lot of people these days, especially younger generation. Could you talk about in a little more detail about what that was, and how that stopped black people from voting? Webster: Yes. Think of it in the context of your earnings, number one. Even if you were educated enough, or learned enough about the exam through some basic classes to pass it, they impose this tax. This tax was compounded. So they’ll look at your age, for an example, and say, oh, you’re 50 years old, so we’re going to charge you a dollar a year since birth. Now your tax is $50, for an example. So before you could get your voter registration approved, you had to pay the $50. And it increased every year thereafter. Well, if you’re only making enough to put bread on the table and pay the rent, that wasn’t your number one priority. So it discouraged—and it was intended to discourage. Each county kind of set their own tax levels. Some may be $.50; some may be $2 a year. But they raised it to a level that it discouraged African Americans from voting. Franklin: And there was no poll tax on whites. Webster: There were—now, I’m going to assume there were poll tax on whites. I don’t know the answer to that, to tell you the truth. Franklin: Okay. And what about the exam? Was it—what kinds of, from your knowledge, what kinds of questions and things were asked of people? Webster: Yeah. As I recall from listening to my father and others that took the exam, it was more white history. You learned about General E. Lee, you learned about the Civil War and why it was fought, but not that it was a war that was fought to end slavery; it was a war that was fought to preserve the economy of the South. So it was more, if I may use the term, white history, than who were governors at this point in time, the legislators, the senators, as opposed to African American history. Franklin: Mm-hm. It must’ve been—I can’t imagine the feeling of being black and having to answer questions about why the Civil War was fought in order to vote. Webster: Yeah, yeah. And I’ll tell you another thing that—you just triggered a thought. We would always get our books and materials and school buses and everything else, they were kind of the hand-me-downs. They came from the whites. Those books that had anything in it about black history, those pages were torn out before we got the books. I can remember, some people in the community would go and order books directly from the publisher. But we didn’t take those books to school; we took the books that had the N-word written all through it and everything else. Drawings of lynchings on front pages of the book, on the blank sheets of it. Those are the books that we learned from. So after a while, you just kind of—it just kind of rolls off. Franklin: Right, it becomes normalized. Webster: Yes. Exactly, exactly. Franklin: Yeah, that kind of terror. Wow. You’d mentioned earlier that when you came here and you started to talk to people, there were people from Texas and Louisiana and Oklahoma. Were most of the people—African Americans you met in east Pasco—were they all recent migrants from the South? Webster: There had been somewhat recent, but generations came with parents. Because, mind you, I came in 1962. A lot of those people had worked at Hanford for 40 years at that time, or longer. But if you stop and think about it, if you have a family, and you have migrated to Pasco, and you’re working every day, and you’re earning two or three times more than you were earning when you were in Louisiana or Texas, and you were able to bring your family, you felt pretty good about it. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: And you got pretty comfortable. And you did not necessarily think about upsetting the apricots, so to speak. So they became conditioned. It was nothing—you didn’t take a second thought about having to go shop at Grigg’s Department Store to get what you want, and you go underneath a railroad track and up to go to Grigg’s. You just did it. And you earned enough money to be able to go to the department store. Franklin: And you didn’t have to go in a separate entrance. Webster: That’s exactly right. Franklin: But if you went to Kennewick, you could go during the day, but you couldn’t go at night. Webster: Yes, yes. Yeah, Kennewick was branded at that time by one of the regional NAACP/civil rights leaders as the Birmingham of the Northwest. Locally it was referred to as the sundown town. You could be there during the day, but by sundown you had to be out. It was basically, for all practical purposes, it was segregated. Just like Birmingham. It didn’t even have an east Pasco. It was white almost 100% all over. Franklin: Right, because covenants had kept— Webster: Yes, yes. Franklin: Had kept African Americans from purchasing a home. Webster: Until the Fair Housing Act was passed, they had these covenants of first right of refusal. So if I was selling to—if one of the owners decides to sell to a black person, someone could step in and say I’m exercising my right of first refusal and buy the property. But if they were selling it to a white person, they would not exercise that right. So they used that as a means to keep it segregated. Franklin: Yeah, it wasn’t until the mid- to late-‘60s, right, where the first African Americans— Webster: Yeah, right. Franklin: The Slaughter family. Webster: The Slaughter family, yeah. And that was done a little bit as a challenge to the covenants, to see if the Fair Housing Act would be enforced. So it was kind of a demonstration to that, a challenge to that. Franklin: Did you meet any Manhattan Project—people who had worked on the Manhattan Project that had come up for construction and had stayed in Pasco? Webster: I met a number of them that have passed on now, of course. Franklin: Of course. Webster: And had an opportunity to interact and talk with and, matter of fact, two or three of the individuals who were my—I consider my strongest supporters, had come up through the Manhattan act. Franklin: Who were they? Webster: One name, E.M. Magee. He was head of the NAACP. Another one was Luzell Johnson. He was a very, very quiet, unassuming man, but very powerful. When he spoke, people listened. Franklin: He helped found Morning Star. Webster: Yes, yes, exactly right. Franklin: Right? In his home with his wife. Webster: Very wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. Another one, his name was Ray Henry. When I call these names, a lot of times, these may not be the formal names on their birth certificates, but these are the names we got to know them by very affectionately. But I’m pretty sure his name was Ray Henry. E.M. Magee, Luzell Johnson, I’m pretty sure those are their correct names. Those three individuals were very, very helpful in keeping me grounded as a youngster. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Webster: Well, I knew that there was a shortage of labor, and I knew that they went to the states where there were high populations of African Americans and brought that labor to Hanford. Subsequently, I learned from some of the declassification of information back relating to that time, that there was a systematic strategy to get the work done, but not to bring social justice along with it. What do I mean by that? When they brought African Americans here, they maintained the segregation. They maintained the separate chow halls and eating facilities and living facilities. They would post signs, this particular chow hall is for Negroes and this for whites. And they basically kept whites as supervisors. So they brought the segregation system, picked it up and moved it here in tact. Because, as I understand it, they wanted to build buildings as opposed to do social engineering. So that’s another reason why blacks were in east Pasco, is that’s where they each agreed that they could go and live, as opposed to Kennewick, and Richland, which was a government town. There were a few blacks in Richland, but very, very few that met the criteria for living in Richland. Franklin: Right, and that criteria was a job with AEC— Webster: At a certain level. Franklin: --at a certain level, which would’ve been a challenge to say the least, for most African Americans to have that education and to prevail on the standard hiring practices of the 1940s and 1950s. Webster: That’s exactly right. There was not the predominate number of people coming in from the labor supply that they were looking to build the plants out there. Franklin: But there were several black families in Richland, is that right? Webster: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Could you name them? Webster: You know, I don’t know all of their names. I think the Wallaces were one. I don’t know names, but I do know there were several black families. I did not know them personally, to be honest with you. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. Let’s see here. We kind of—oh, I wanted to—from your perspective, thinking about the African Americans that came during World War II to help build Hanford and who stayed, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Webster: Well, number one is, this does not necessarily relate to civil rights, but I saw a very, very strong sense of family, a very strong sense of community. Even though by my perception, it was a segregated community. But there was a very strong sense of community. There were a lot of African Americans who worked at Hanford after it was built, and they were part of the downwinders. I don’t know if you got into that a whole lot, but they were part of the folks who were contaminated and were actually compensated for their illnesses from working out there. Franklin: Was that because of the location of east Pasco, or were they—was it due to exposure on the job? Webster: Both the job and where they lived. The one other thing that I really appreciated, even though they went to an elementary school that was segregated—and it’s part of this family values—there were siblings who their kids were encouraged to go to the high school—which, Pasco then only had one high school. And was encouraged to go on to college. There were Pasco-ites that went on to the NFL and there’s some wonderful things as a result of the experience that they got here at Hanford. So, I don’t mean to say that the quality of life was so bad that they couldn’t overcome the challenges. But I saw challenges in my generation that I thought was not necessary. And I thought we had overcome in other parts of the world. Franklin: Did you feel that—you’d mentioned how Pasco kind of surprised you that Pasco was so much like Alabama. Did you think, leaving Alabama, that you were leaving that kind of segregation behind? Webster: Oh, no question. When I left Alabama, I was so determined to leave—and I was very young and I can think back now how my parents must’ve felt with me saying I’m leaving home. I had a fried chicken in a cardboard box, my mom cooked a pound cake, and I bought a loaf of bread. That was my meal. And then when I bought my ticket at the Greyhound bus station from Mobile, Alabama to Oakland, California, I had $29 left. With those kinds of resources, going from one part of the world that you’d never been in before, going to another part of the world you’ve never been before, it took some determination and something to say you have the motivation to leave here. I guess from TV and other places, I decided to pack up and leave. Then when I got here, and again I found the same thing that I was experiencing in Alabama, I thought, my goodness, why did I make the sacrifice? But I could see, just because I was able to go over to Columbia Basin College, and the fact that I could walk n the front door and go in the registrar’s office—even though the counselor told me I would never ever matriculate in college. That was an incentive. And I’ll tell you something else, when I got my master’s degree, I went over and I took a photocopy of it and I left it in his office. He wasn’t there, so I just left it in his office. But the thing that I appreciate most is arriving in this town of Pasco, the east side, and getting the level of support that I had as a newcomer. But I think they saw me as a teenager, as a youngster, who wanted to do something. And all the folks just said, let’s get behind him and do something, because he’s trying to do something positive. Yeah. Franklin: That’s great. Kind of still a segregated environment, but one that maybe had more opportunity than the South for you, and for others? Webster: Yeah, but you know, in the South, there’s one thing, at least when I was growing up: you had an opportunity to go to college, but you went to, again, a segregated college. Franklin: To an HBC? Webster: To an HBC. You had an opportunity in many times to be a professional, whether it was a school teacher or an administrator. You didn’t have the options of being a medical doctor unless you went to another school in another state. Like in Alabama, my brother wanted to go to medical school and back in the days, they would pay you—the state would pay, if you would accepted in medical school, let’s say in Tennessee or something, to an all-black school. They would pay the tuition, because they didn’t want you going to University of Alabama, for an example. So they would pay your out-of-state tuition to go there. Franklin: Why would that be? Webster: To keep it segregated. It was segregation. “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever.” You’ve probably— Franklin: George Wallace, right? Webster: That’s exactly right. So to keep it segregated, they would pay for you to go to another state. So it was—people who lived here were aware of that. And I think they just needed someone to be an advocate for change. Franklin: Yeah. Did you attend church? Webster: Here? Franklin: Yeah. Webster: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was a member, active member of New Hope Baptist Church, which was right up the hill from Morning Star. Franklin: Right. How long did you go there for? Webster: I’m going to say probably ten years. Franklin: What role did church play in the community? Webster: The church was the foundation of the community. Almost everything positive came out of the church. I’ll give you an example. I felt that in order—it’s kind of going back to England and where they have piazzas, the places you can go and congregate and community, things like—I thought that Pasco needed a place, a neutral place, where people could go and they could call it a community center. And I could see the value of people gathering. We had a little place over in east Pasco called Kurtzman Park. It was a little building there. And I thought that we could do better. So I studied up and found that HUD had what they call block grants. They would give block grants for certain amounts of dollars depending on your application. I worked and worked and worked and got the city, the city manager, Mar Winegar, one of the finest city managers I think that ever held a city manager job anywhere, agreed to work with me in helping to complete an application. We completed a HUD application and got some $440,000-$450,000 to build what is now known as the Martin Luther King Center in east Pasco. The central labor council owned the land where that building is. We worked with them, and they deeded that land as part of the in-con contribution to match the HUD block grant. We were able to put that together. The way that we—part of Mar Winegar’s help and assistance—we were able to work out a strategy where the Pasco Parks and Recreation would somewhat manage the building. But to get the revenue, we went to get the various state agencies and other organizations to rent space in the building to help maintain it. So DS&HS, I think, had a small office there. Employment, security, had a small office there. Central Labor Council had a small recruiting office. So there were different offices in this building to help maintain it. And it became a community center. And not only did the community need the services of the agencies that were there, but it became a—but to answer your question, all of that came out of the basement of Morning Star Baptist Church. Reverend Allen was the pastor at that time. So I think if you point to almost any significant accomplishment, the genesis of it came from the spiritual and religious community. Franklin: It functioned as a meeting place. Webster: Yes. Franklin: In the community. Webster: That’s where the people went. I mean, when you wanted to do something, you go where the people are. On Sunday morning, that’s where you’re going to find them, and that’s where you make your point. You convince the pastor that it’s worthwhile, and then they’ll let you get up and make announcements and talk to the congregation where you’ve got a captive audience. That’s how you got your message across. So it was—because you didn’t have a newspaper or TV channel or radio station or any of those, except for a routine newscast or something. But if you wanted to tell your whole story, you had to go to the church. Franklin: Right. How would you describe life in the community, in east Pasco? Webster: It was probably one of the best lives that I have lived. And I say that because everybody cared for one another. People lived in harmony. Didn’t have much, so it wasn’t economically driven; it was more social- and spiritual-driven. Everyone was treated with respect. You’d hear very few disagreements. You didn’t have what they have today with solving disagreements, you know, with violence. It was probably one of the best places I’ve lived in my life. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Webster: Now, or then? Franklin: Then. Webster: Then? I didn’t have any spare time, because I was going to college at the time, and I was also very active in the community. I was president—I went on to become president of CORE, the Congress of Racial Equality. I was president of the Tri-City chapter although I was very young, but again— I want to make this point, something that I did not experience in Alabama. There were white people of quote-unquote high stature with very high moral commitments to help bring about this change. When I say that, I’m talking about lawyers and educators and scientists out here on the project who helped to bring about this change. You know, if I named—if I started naming like the Ed Critchlows—I don’t know if you’ve—the Critchlow, Williams and Ryals law firm, I think, is still in existence here in Richland. A guy named John Sullivan was a lawyer. Dick Nelson was a scientist here in the Project. I mean, there were just a number of people who migrated to this area from other places, highly educated, technical backgrounds, could see the same thing that I saw and was willing to give their time and knowledge and energies to bring about this—the Brouns, Dick and Nyla Brouns. They gave of their time and talents and financial resources to help bring about this change. That was one of the better learning experiences I’ve had. Franklin: And you said that was different from Alabama. Webster: Yes. I mean, I never saw, in my generation, and certainly years later where there were whites in the North that was part of the Freedom Ride and other movements, Martin Luther King’s movement, that came to the South. But you didn’t find folks that lived in Theodore, Alabama helping to bring about a change for black folks in Alabama. So that was my first opportunity to work shoulder-to-shoulder with white people to bring about this change. When we were marching on Pasco, for an example. Pasco City Hall was a totally white city hall that was supposedly serving the whole city. There was not a police officer, or anyone in public works, engineering, or any of those places. So, we were marching on city hall for employment opportunities. The Pasco Police Department, for example, had never had—at that time, had not had any people of color working. I applied for a grant that paid the salary of the first police officer in Pasco, on the Pasco Police Department. Franklin: There were also some issues between the Pasco Police Department and residents of east Pasco. There was some tension there, in that relationship in the ‘60s? Webster: As I recall, not to the extent that you have today, and not for the same reasons that you have today. I don’t recall any shootings of unarmed black people or anything like that. I look back and I think there probably was some collusions on the part of the police department and some of the elicit activities that were going on, you know. Because some of these things operated in broad, open daylight, that if you had a police department that was cracking down on them, it wouldn’t have been possible. Franklin: I was just looking back on an old interview with James Pruitt. I don’t know if that name is familiar to you. Webster: Yeah, Jim Pruitt? Yeah. Franklin: He had been—Jim, yeah, sorry. In the interview, the interviewer keeps calling him James, and he’s like, Jim, my name is Jim. Webster: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Franklin: He had been—he was appointed as a liaison between east Pasco and the police department, because there had been some excessive force arrests or something to that nature—or, it just seemed like there was a relationship that was a little rocky there for a period of time that would’ve warranted a liaison, right? Or was it just that maybe there was no interface between city government and east Pasco? Webster: I think it was more that than—I’ll be honest with you, I don’t recall. I just don’t recall where there were racial tensions or anything like that between the police. I just don’t recall that. And I do—I know Jim well—knew him well. It was more during the Urban Renewal and when that was going on. I think you may have talked to Webster about that. It was more during that time, when we were looking at bridging the gaps, the communications gaps and all that, because Jim was a liaison, I think, at the time that I got the grant to hire our first police officer. So I don’t recall that it was racial tension as we know it today. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. But there’s certainly—a big part of your efforts was a big push to make the city more representative of its citizens. Webster: Yes. Streets and sidewalks were an example. Things that we didn’t have that the west side had. Education, where kids could go to school and get the same quality of education that the west side got. Those were kind of—jobs where they could—not just the labor jobs at Hanford, but jobs working in the City of Pasco, whether you were working for the surveying group or—as a matter of fact, I think I went to work for a while as a member of a survey team in city hall, going out surveying streets and looking at improvement districts and stuff like that. So it was that kind of—but we had to push city hall and city management to move on those areas. Franklin: Right. Webster: And that was pushed with a lot of leather on the streets. Franklin: And you mentioned that you had been president of CORE, the Tri-Cities chapter of CORE. Webster: Yes. Franklin: And CORE was a pretty young organization at that time, right? Webster: Correct. Franklin: And did it draw from all the three cities? Webster: Yes. Oh, yes. Matter of fact, a number of our meetings were actually held in Kennewick. A lot of the organizing and strategizing meetings were held in Kennewick. And many of the folks that was part of it came from Richland as well. And a number of them worked on the Hanford Project in very professional managerial roles. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, I’ve interviewed several folks who were involved with that. You mentioned the Brouns and then we had interviewed the Millers here— Webster: Yes. Franklin: And Jim Stoffels who was secretary. Webster: Right, right, right. The Millers, especially. They were involved as a family. I guess so with the Brouns. But I can remember the Millers were involved as a family. They were right there every day, working side-by-side. And we organized marches. We went from Pasco to Kennewick to emphasize the sundown. Franklin: Over the bridge? Webster: Over the bridge, over the bridge. Franklin: Was that the green bridge? Webster: Yes, it was. It’s kind of comical now when I look back. We were marching over, arm-in-arm and walking across, and there some cars on the other side of the bridge, they were standing there with the rebel flag on them, and they were raising the engine, and you can hear the engines roaring. I was arm-in-arm with Jack Tanner, who was the regional NAACP president at that time out of Tacoma, very influential lawyer at that time, and went on to be a federal court judge. I looked over at Jack. I said, Jack, what are we going to do? Because we thought they were revving up these engines to just run the cars. And he looked at me and said, can you swim? [LAUGHTER] I never will forget that. I said, no, I can’t swim in that water! Across the Columbia River. And he said, well, let’s keep on marching then. Okay, so we just kept marching and went on to the other side. Franklin: Wow. How did that feel to see that symbol, which you must’ve grown up seeing the Confederate flag all over the place. How did it feel to see that in Kennewick and Pasco, in Washington State, where— Webster: I’ll tell you. By that time, I was somewhat sensitized to what’s happening here and learned about. But it took me way back. I mean, it took me to the guys that was riding around on horsebacks with hoods over their heads with same flags. I mean, the only difference was that these individuals were in muscle cars with flags on them. But it was scary. It was scary. Franklin: That symbol was meant to— Webster: Intimidate. Franklin: --intimidate you, right? Webster: Intimidate, no question about it. Franklin: They weren’t showing up to promote Southern heritage. Webster: No, oh, no, no, no. It was to intimidate. But it was intended, in my judgment, to say to us, we’re going to keep Kennewick white. That’s what—and we’re going to challenge you on it. And, not in our backyard. Franklin: You know, if I could share an anecdote real quick with you, a few weeks ago I went to the march for immigrants here in Richland. Webster: Mm-hmm? Franklin: And we were marching right by the courthouse, did a big loop around Howard Amon Park. And a gentleman in a truck—I thought this was really interesting—with a Confederate flag and an American flag, was rolling down the street revving his engine, yelling obscenities, flipping us the bird. Which, to see those two together is strange enough, but then to use that as a symbol of intimidation against immigrants. It still is clear as day what the intent of that symbolism is. Webster: Right. And in the South, I think even to this day, the Civil War was just like it was fought last week. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: I mean, with the rebel flags and the sentiments and beliefs and values is just like it was yesterday. And how those kinds of feelings can be carried forward for generations is just amazing. It’s amazing to me. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember any other particular community events, from—during those years in east Pasco? Webster: You know, we had a number of—I’m trying to, you know, there’s—it’s kind of coming back to me now. I can’t remember the incident, but we had a number of meetings in Kurtzman Park that was very tense meetings. As a matter of fact, what used to happen is Carl Maxey from Spokane, prominent civil rights lawyer in Spokane, other lawyers from Seattle, would come to Pasco, because we didn’t have any African American lawyers here at that time, and help us with civil rights issues. I remember I was having a meeting in Kurtzman Park where it got pretty heated, just among the—I don’t remember the issues, but there was one bombing that took place here in east Pasco. It was this gentleman, who lives in Richland, had built a business— Franklin: Right. I interviewed him. Oh, shoot. Webster: Carter. Franklin: Yes, Dan Carter. Webster: Had built a business, janitorial business as well as he had a ceramic store. And somebody set off a bomb. We were all in Kurtzman Park, having a big powwow when that happened, because everybody jumped and ran. Not to say there were not some very tense times back in those days, but I don’t remember any killings or anything like that that were associated with our movement or anything. Franklin: When I interviewed Dan and a couple others, they had alluded to—there was a disconnect or a tense relationship between African Americans in Richland and African Americans in east Pasco. And sometimes the two—not that they didn’t see eye-to-eye, but that people in east Pasco kind of felt that those in Richland or from outside the area who were trying to help were kind of outsiders or maybe they didn’t understand the Pasco issue. Would you say that’s the case? Webster: I would say that’s somewhat true. There was this feeling that African Americans that came to Richland came after the African Americans in Pasco had really built Hanford. So they were being recruited for the best jobs, and they had the best quality of life. And often did not relate very well to the people of east Pasco. And, yes, that’s when this intra conflict started to exist. Although there were individuals in Richland that related very well. But it was more of an economic divide, and a social divide than a racial divide. Franklin: Right, right. Kind of a class thing. Webster: Right, that’s exactly right. Right, right. Franklin: Related to kind of violence or destruction of property, I had heard in an older oral history, someone said that Luzell’s daughter had tried to move to Kennewick and someone had—the house had burned down. Webster: Yeah, there were a number of incidents that happened right after the—and before the Civil Rights Act. I remember one individual—excuse me—who moved to Kennewick and it was Jones. Her last name was Jones. And they moved to Kennewick. She worked for the telephone company in Pasco. Pacific Northwest Bell Telephone had an office right on Lewis Street. At night, we would take turns driving immediately behind her from the time she got off at Bell to the time she walked in the front door. So somebody would be with her. We would not let her go home by herself, because of all the threats and stuff like that. Franklin: Wow. Like phone, telephone and mail? Webster: And notes left on her car, and you name it. Franklin: Wow, wow. Webster: Yup. Rocks thrown against the doors of her house. They were trailblazers, in a sense, like the Slaughters, some of the first ones to live in Kennewick. Franklin: Right. Wow. I guess kind of a happier shift, do you recall any family or community events or traditions, including sports and food, that people brought from the places they came from? Webster: [LAUGHTER] Yes. We had some big events in the park and folks had their specialties, whether it was their black-eyed peas or their fried chicken. You know, there was another business that we had that she would always provide the chicken. There was the chicken shack. Franklin: Virgie’s? Webster: Virginia’s. Virginia. Franklin: Virginia’s Chicken Shack. Webster: And then, believe it or not, she was in a building. She lived in one portion and the Chicken Shack was on the front. She didn’t start serving chicken until maybe 10:00 or 11:00 at night and would go all night because of folks that went to the tavern and everywhere else that would go there after hours, right? But then across the A Street, down further in almost like a private home was another lady, her name was Sally. I can’t tell you what her last name, but it was Sally’s, and that’s where you went and got all the barbecue. I mean, this lady would barbecue for days. So all of those things would come to the park. And then we would have the Juneteenth gathering. You probably got the history on that, on Juneteenth, but that was a time to come to the park, celebrate, put the benches out, bring your best dish, and people just kind of congregated, just from everywhere in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: That was the celebrating the arrival of the news that slavery— Webster: That’s correct, had ended. Two years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Franklin: Right. And that was not exclusively but primarily a Texas event, right? Webster: Yes. Franklin: But there were a lot of— Webster: Some in Oklahoma, but mostly in Texas, yeah. Franklin: Right, because there was a pretty big contingent of families from, especially from Kildare that had moved up and— Webster: Mm-hmm, you got it. Franklin: --and brought that tradition with them. Webster: Yes, yes. And it’s kind of celebrated throughout the African American community to this day. But the point is that that was a major day in the park that people got together and brought their foods and their specialties there. Franklin: Okay. So we talked a lot about opportunities. You—so I wanted to shift kind of to some of your work—I don’t exactly know your timeline, so I don’t know where to start, but I wanted to talk about your work at Hanford, but also your work with the Urban Renewal. So I don’t know which one of those is a better one to start with first. Webster: Well, Urban Renewal was first. Franklin: Okay. Let’s talk about that first. Webster: It was going on at the time that I was the executive director of the Benton-Franklin Community Action Committee, which was in the late ‘60s, ’69, probably, to ’73, somewhere in that timeframe. Franklin: You were doing all of this in your late 20s, huh? Webster: Oh, oh yeah. Franklin: Like 20s and early 30s. Webster: Oh, yeah, and my teens. Franklin: And your teens. Webster: Yeah, early teens and early 20s. As director of the Community Action Committee—the Bi-county Community Action Committee, that was more of a continuation of some of the work that I had done as a teen in Pasco. As a matter of fact, I was offered a job almost the day I—I left as a teen because I got inducted into the military at the time—the draft. I should say, I got drafted into the military. Franklin: Right, for the Vietnam War. Webster: Vietnam War. And then when I got out and came back to Pasco, discharged and came back to Pasco, I was immediately offered this job as the executive director of the Benton-Franklin Community Action Committee. Franklin: What years were you gone? Webster: I was gone from ’65 until ’69. Franklin: Okay. Webster: Yeah. So in April of ’69 I became director of the Community Action Committee and again, continued some of the work that I was doing. Of course, that program was federally funded; it was part of the Economic Opportunity Act in the Johnson Great Society program. So you were limited in terms of how you could get involved in partisan politics, but city government and all those things were not considered partisan. They were considered non-partisan so I could be very active in those activities and working with the various organizations. So we created neighborhood councils and we were trying to get neighborhood councils to address issues in their specific neighborhoods. One of the neighborhood councils that I worked closely with was the East Pasco Neighborhood Council. And there, we worked closely with the Urban Renewal, which, Webster Jackson headed that. There was tension and conflicts there from a program standpoint. Not necessarily from individuals running these programs, but from a program standpoint. The Urban Renewal program did not have a major component to it in terms of what was being renewed. We knew that they were buying houses that they considered to be dilapidated and moving people out, but there was no housing being developed to give people an option to stay in the neighborhood or another section of the neighborhood. So all those people who were in east Pasco next to the railroad track and somewhat west of Oregon Street or west of Wehe Street were being, property being purchased under the Urban Renewal program, like I said. But there was no replacement housing. So it became more and more industrial. We were kind of fighting to get housing. Matter of fact, as part of that, Mister Romney, George Romney’s dad who ran for vice president or ran for president— Franklin: Oh, right, George Romney—for Mitt Romney. Webster: From Michigan. Mitt Romney’s dad physically came to Pasco— Franklin: Really? Webster: --to meet with us. Yes, yes, I’ve got photos with him. Because we were concerned about that displacement. It just so happened that that program lasted longer than I did, and I didn’t see it through. But I believe to this day that was probably one of the biggest failures that I encountered in the sense that, for me, that we didn’t see it through well enough to say if you buy this house, then you should have another affordable house to move in and hold the community together, as opposed to dispersing a community. A lot of people went to rentals and moved out of the area and so the neighborhood that we knew as east Pasco was basically, from a homeownership standpoint, was basically cut in half, if not more. Franklin: Wow. Yeah. I had heard that from a couple others that had been involved in Urban Renewal. Webster: It’s all big industrial stuff now. Franklin: Yeah. But it’d succeeded in getting rid of some of the very questionable and dilapidated housing, but it’d fragmented the community. Webster: Exactly. Franklin: And didn’t replace that with better housing. Webster: Right, yeah. Yeah, because a lot of people had taken—I wouldn’t say a lot, but some had taken their railroad cars that had been surplused I guess, and got them hauled in and joined them together. And they were putting them on cinder blocks and they were living in some of these places. Franklin: Wow. Webster: Very warm and nice and comfortable inside, but very limited space. But it was home. Franklin: Right, it was a home, and they fought to—it’s not like the government was allowing them to get home loans. But now the government was coming in and saying, well, you know, you got to get rid of this. Webster: And buying it out, but no real place to go. Franklin: Was there pushback? From people in east Pasco? Webster: There was pushback, but not from an organized pushback that I would’ve liked to have seen or that I think would exist today. Franklin: Mm, it was just individuals? Webster: Yes. And again, I was a young kid, you know? I didn’t quite understand the whole dynamics and everything that was going on, so I couldn’t provide what I feel today is the leadership that that issue should’ve gotten to get the results that you were looking for. Franklin: Right, right. That’s a sad but kind of common story in American cities with Urban Renewals, is describing that same effect, is a lot of the attention is paid to the clearing-out but very little is paid to— Webster: The building-up. Franklin: And finishing the program. Webster: That’s correct, that’s correct. Franklin: And then what did you do—you mentioned you didn’t finish with the Community Action Council, or you didn’t finish with the program, what did you move on to? Webster: Well, when I left there, I worked for a while after I got out of the CAC on completing the application and providing the infrastructure and the funding for the community center. I guess it’s called the Martin Luther King Community Center now. Got that all completed, got the construction. But at that time, I moved on to Central. As I mentioned, I got two AAs from CBC. Then I had an opportunity to move on to Central and finish undergraduate and graduate there. And after I left Central—and I also worked at Central. I was their first community affirmative action director, in helping to bring about diversifying their faculty. That went well. Then I came back to Hanford and worked at Boeing Computer Services as a employment manager. And had the opportunity to work there for quite a while, before I moved to Seattle and went into the banking business, and that’s where I retired. Franklin: You said at Boeing you were a— Webster: Employment manager. Franklin: Employment manager. What’s— Webster: HR. Franklin: And was your job, was it a similar, for affirmative action type job? Webster: That was included, but at that time, we were on an employment build-up. I had the authority, with the limitations of security clearances, et cetera, to offer jobs to individuals onsite as we went around the country interviewing. We had selection criteria of course, and if we felt that a person—and the competition drove a lot of that as well. Because if you’ve got to come back and wait to explain and help a manager understand why this person is good, someone else has hired them and they’re gone and no longer available. But we had the authority to offer the jobs right onsite, whether it was in San Francisco or Texas or wherever we were recruiting. Franklin: Were there many African Americans in similar positions to yours at Hanford, or was the workforce becoming more diversified? Webster: Yes. At Hanford, the workforce was becoming more diversified, because I think that was driven a lot by the Department of Energy. There were two gentlemen, well, actually, three, that worked in the human resources area at Department of Energy. And these individuals were also active in the community, who drove a lot of that. I don’t know if you’ve heard the name Bob Hooper? Bob Hooper, Fred Rutt. I’ll get Chandler’s last name—first name here in a minute. But Fred Rutt, Bob Hooper, were in the employment area for Department of Energy. They influenced these contractors to do the same thing. As a matter of fact, Bob and Fred were also involved in community, like CORE and the Central Labor Council, which we worked very closely with in apprenticeship programs and recruiting there. Then after I left, I left Boeing and went to—at that time, Rainier Bank, and I went into Rainier Bank in Affirmative Action. They were operating under a consent decree. But I had an agreement, after reading the consent decree and talking to executive management, that if I can meet the requirements—get the company to meet the requirements of this decree, which had to be signed off by a judge—that I would be able to go into the mainstream banking. We had a handshake on that. And the president of that bank, when the judge signed off on the decree, which was about two, two-and-a-half years later, I moved right into the mainstream of the bank. That’s where I stayed until I retired. Franklin: Wow, wow. I wanted to ask you—you sent me a few newspaper articles, by mail, and thank you very much. There’s one of you receiving an employment application. Do you remember that photo? I wish I had brought it. Webster: I think that was where I was leading a group to get employment applications. Franklin: I think at the city. Webster: At the city. That’s where we marched down to city hall and, as I mentioned to you, the city did not have people of color working. And in a challenge, they would tell me that we don’t have anybody working because no one ever applies. So I went and gathered up about ten people and we all went down to city hall at the same time to make applications for jobs that they had available. That’s when the photo was taken of us at the counter, applying for jobs, yeah. I was—whether you’re talking about a voter registration drive, whether you’re talking about unemployment, whether you’re talking about school desegregation, I always thought there had to be an endgame. There had to be tangible results to say that you’ve done something. It wasn’t enough to march from Pasco to Kennewick or march around city hall or go to a schoolboard meeting and have placards in your hand. I had to be able to see African American teachers being hired. I had to see students going into a different class and graduating. I had to see people getting a job. Man, I’m trying to remember the name of the company. It was a company when you go out to West Richland that relocated. They were processing potatoes and potato chips and all this— Franklin: Lamb Weston? Webster: Yeah. I went out there and was talking to the manager and he said, we don’t discriminate. We’ve got x number of jobs, and if you bring the people, we’ll hire them. The next day, I showed up with a carload of people and they walked in, and they did just what they said they would do. They hired them. And those folks had jobs. So, that’s how I tried to measure my success: on the results, as opposed to the activities. Franklin: Right. If you had to summarize the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here, what would they be? Webster: Summarize the activities? Franklin: Issues. Webster: Issues. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: I would say, number one would be at the top of the list would be education for younger people in the elementary level. Second would be jobs, more than just minimum wage kind of jobs. I worked very closely with Hanford to do that. Bob Hooper, Chuck Chandler—I remembered his name—and Fred Rutt were very helpful in paving the way. A guy named Ralph Eckerd who headed up an electrical company here, but also sat on a labor board, was very instrumental in helping to get apprentice employed on the way to journeyman. Being able to become a journeyman, not just in electrical, but in any other field. Matter of fact, they were instrumental in having an office in that neighborhood center in east Pasco to be able to recruit. And then they hired an African American guy to head that office to go out and do the recruiting for them. So employment was another major factor. I also think the voter registration and the participation in civics played a major role that resulted in both an African American woman being appointed and an African American man being elected to the Pasco City Council. Then after that, another African American man being elected and then becoming mayor. Franklin: That was Joe— Webster: That was Joe. And so I think the voter registration and the awareness of the political scene and what you can do if you have representation in the right place. And the right place was not on the street; the right place was where the decisions were being made, sitting on the council. And I think that was important. I also pushed very, very hard to have an African American appointed to the board of directors of Columbia Basin College. As a matter of fact, as part of this whole political theme, and the republicans giving me the opportunity to go out and do some registration—and this decision was based solely—solely—on the individual—I opened the first republican campaign office in east Pasco. That office was for Dan Evans, when he ran for governor. Like I say, I don’t know of a politician today, bar none, that was more honest and more fair, more equitable, than Dan Evans. Franklin: Did that early experience with republicans—or did that—are you a lifelong republican? Webster: No. And that is—you know, I just told you that I’m from Alabama and grew up and the r-word down there—if you’re African American, you may as well leave town, because you have tar and feathers all over you. So I’m probably as democratic as anybody can ever get from the bottom of my foot to the top of my head. But that was not—and I went to the democratic party first, to register people. When they turned me down, I went to the other alternative with the republicans, and that’s what gave me the opportunity to register people to vote. But in Dan Evans’ case, he was political in the sense that he was running as a republican governor. But I was not. I was looking strictly at the individual. And the integrity that he brought to the process, and what I felt that he could do. I was never disappointed in that. And I—yes, I took some heat from, even in the African American community, for supporting a governor—well, you show me somebody that’s better. And I believe that to this day that that was the right decision. Franklin: I was just curious. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: More than anything. Webster: Oh, yeah. Franklin: What were, in your opinion, what were some of the notable successes of some of the civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? Webster: Well, I think, number one, is probably the biggest one outside of jobs and having individuals, like heading up the lab in Richland— Franklin: Oh, Bill Wiley. Webster: Bill Wiley. I think, if I had to pinpoint what I consider the biggest, was the ability to enforce the Fair Housing laws and get African Americans living in Kennewick. And there are individuals in Kennewick now—and this is our fault, as an African American community—have no idea, when they come to town, they just go right over to Kennewick and rent an apartment and live without any repercussions whatsoever. They don’t have any idea—no—but bringing that about, don’t need the credit. You just need to know that it’s happening, is the most gratifying thing as far as I’m concerned. That they can go and live anywhere in the Tri-Cities that you want to live. All you got to do is be able to pay your rent or pay your house note, and you can live there. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges, or maybe failures? Webster: Again, I think the biggest challenge that I saw was getting the right people to rally around a cause that—I’m going to use the word “I” at this point—that I felt was most critical at that moment in time. That’s where the Luzell Johnsons of east Pasco came in, to get the right—I call him Junior Smith, he was another one, too—to get them rallying around you and supporting you. I think the biggest challenge—the other biggest challenge was breaking the barrier between Pasco city government and Pasco residents who were African American. If you just stop and think about it, east Pasco was kind of like a throwaway place. Y’all or they or whoever, you can live over there. The streets were all dirt roads, there were no sidewalks, nothing, you know. They had some sewer and water, but no sidewalks. Franklin: Well, it didn’t even have sewer or water originally. Webster: For a long time—originally, yeah. But my day, when I came along, it was pretty much. But there were hardly anyone investing or developing except for down near the railroad tracks when the industrial went in. And to say that we’re part of the city. We want to work, we want to live, and we want to play in this city. And we pay taxes, and we deserve streets, sidewalks, curbs, gutters, et cetera. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: And we deserve employment in the city that we live. Those were the—making that connection was a huge challenge. Franklin: I had Pastor Wilkins describe it—he described it as, you could tell what the city thought of the black residents in east Pasco because they were on the other side of the tracks, and then he said there was, like, a dump and a highway and then a stockyard. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: And that’s what they thought of us, because that’s where they put us, was next to the trash and the— Webster: Yeah, and whichever direction the wind was blowing, you knew it. Yeah, the big stockyard was directly across the street from where I lived. I mean, directly across. Franklin: Yeah, those don’t smell pleasant. Webster: No, they don’t. No, they don’t. So we were, like I say, we were the throwaway part of the city. To bring about the sensitivity to change that mindset was a challenge. Franklin: Yeah. How did—oh, sorry. Webster: I was going to say one of the things, one of the other elements or factors that played a role was WSU. Glenn Terrell, I don’t know if you heard that name or not. But Glenn Terrell was the president of WSU. He made many trips down and worked with us in east Pasco. He also—I shouldn’t say he, but the Department of Sociology also sent students down to help us formulate ideas and do research and make sure our positions were strong and backed up with supporting data and reasonableness. So, that was before you had an extension or a campus or whatever they call it now, here at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the theses produced by the sociology students. Webster: Yeah, and we worked closely with Bill Wiley who was also a trustee at WSU, right? To help bring to bear some of the resources—human capital. Not necessarily money, but human capital to help us overcome some of the difficulties we were having here at the— Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Webster: Well, I mentioned that I was from Alabama. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Webster: I marched a couple times with Dr. King. Franklin: Really? Webster: I’ve heard him preach two or three times. My wife is from Montgomery. And I’m from Mobile. But when I would go up there, we would go and hear him preach. But what really moved me was I was sitting on a bar stool in my uncle’s tavern, watching TV, and was watching the march on Washington. And I felt extremely guilty. I felt like I had walked away from the movement in Alabama. I should’ve been there. I should’ve been marching. I should’ve been, I should’ve, I should’ve never left, I should be there, contributing there, instead of here. That was also that connection, and that connection with CORE, getting James Farmer’s information. All of that was part of the eye-opening experience here. What they talked about on TV in Alabama, I could see it in east Pasco. I could see it in Kennewick. I could see it in Richland. Those were all connected, in terms of the motivation to do something. Franklin: Wow. From your perspective and experience, what was different about civil rights efforts here? Webster: I think we had been lured into a comfort zone. We had gotten somewhat complacent with what we had. That had a lot to do with that we were better than where we came. But to say we can still do better took a bit more convincing than I originally thought it would. Franklin: Like, you maybe felt that some people—like, it was better, so it was good enough? Webster: Yeah, it was—you know, you and I probably have to really get our heads around the same thing. I’m doing 50 times better than my dad, so maybe I’m doing enough. And so, I’m comfortable. And I don’t need to get involved with Black Lives Matter. I don’t need to get involved with some of the immigration fights that’s going on now. I’ve done that before. I’ve been there, I’ve done that. Now it’s their turn. There are all kinds of ways of justifying being in your comfort zone. And there’s something that’s got to kick you out of that comfort zone and say, you need to be involved today. As long as you’re breathing, you need to be helping to move things forward. And that’s a challenge sometime, depending on how long you’ve been in that comfort zone and your motivation to do something. Franklin: Yeah. Well said. So, when you left, you left Boeing to move over to Rainier Bank, how come you left the area that had been your home—why’d you move over to the west side? Webster: That’s a good question, and the answer is not as logical as you might think. We had purchased our first home. We had our—we have two kids, and the baby, my wife was literally nine months pregnant with the second. And here I come home saying that we’re moving. But what happened was, as part of my employment management job at BCSR, Boeing Computer Services Richland, we interfaced with certain jobs with our professional recruiters. This recruiter called me up one day and said, Wally, I have a client that’s looking for—and he described this Affirmative Action job in banking in Seattle—do you know of anyone? I said, no, I don’t know of anyone. I said, but send me a copy of the description, and I will pass the word around. It was just that; conversation over. About three weeks later, he calls me up and said, Wally, you remember I talked to you about that Affirmative Action job? I said, yeah, I said, I don’t—you didn’t send me the description and I don’t have anybody. He said, well, we were thinking about you. I said, oh, no, I don’t want to move. That’s not for me. I don’t want to live in Seattle; I’m doing well right here in Richland. He said, what would it take for you to just go over and talk to them? I said, well, I’ll tell you what it would take. Send me over on a Thursday night, I interview on Friday, I get to spend the weekend in Seattle and come back Sunday night. He said, deal. So I went over and interviewed on Friday. The guy called me up and said, we would like to hire you. Would you consider coming? And I said no. And then about a day or so later he called me up again and said, how much would it take for you to come? And I’m being a smart-butt. I just threw out a number. And the first thing he said, you got it. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Webster: And what do you do? I mean, you’ve made a commitment, right? And he met it. So now I’m—not only that, we’ll do this, we’ll do this, we’ll fly you home every weekend until you have your baby, and then while she’s recovering, you can go home every week, and you can do this, and we’ll buy you a house, and we’ll move you, and we’ll put you up for 90 days while you find another house, and we’ll provide you with a mortgage on your new house and—I moved. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. How were your experiences in Seattle different from Tri-Cities? Webster: That’s a very good question. As a matter of fact, I’ve thought about that a little bit. I’m not as involved in social organizations as I was here. But I’ve tried to make change from the inside based on my experience. I went through a succession of bank changes. So I sat on Seafirst Bank Foundation, for an example, to advocate for change through grants and stuff like that going. I currently sit on the chief of police advisory committee of the chief in Lynnwood where I live, to help bring about the communications and changes there. I’ve kind of learned that if you’re at the table when the decisions are being made and you can influence them at that point in time, is that you can be more effective than reacting and waiting for the decision to come down and then going to react to it. Governor Locke appointed me to the Legal Foundation of Washington. At that time I was the only non-lawyer on that foundation. And then Governor Gregoire re-appointed me to the foundation. They distributed $15, 16, 17 million a year to legal aide organizations throughout the state. Being able to influence that, and being able to determine the kind of organizations that would get money to carry out the legal aide for civil issues as opposed to criminal, and who got how much. Like Northwest Immigration Project was one of the major ones that’s now helping to fight the immigration laws that’s being—to be able to be a part of that, to me, is how I have been functioning. And that’s how it’s different from when I was here. I was on the outside, working from the outside. Now I find myself on the inside, working from the inside. If that makes sense. Franklin: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And, yeah, because you kind of—you went into that world. Webster: Yes, yes. Franklin: Yeah. What surprised you, if anything, when you moved? Webster: Well, a couple things. Number one, contrary to what most people think, Seattle doesn’t have a “black community.” They think of the central district as the black community in Seattle. But if you walk through the central district, it’s just as diverse as anywhere else you can go. That’s not to say that a lot of black folks don’t live in central district, but a lot of black folks live in south Seattle as well. So that kind of surprised me. I worked on a campaign of several African Americans, like Mayor Rice, the first African American mayor of Seattle. Matter of fact, he was at Rainier Bank when I went to Rainier Bank. We worked together at the bank before he left to go to run for councilor and then the mayor. So the politics is a lot different. And it’s different from the standpoint that I don’t think even to this day, that I am part of the nucleus of the political power in the black community in Seattle. I’m still an outsider. Whereas in Pasco, three weeks after I got here, I was inside of the political structure of the black community, if there was such a thing, and able to go and meet with the mayor even though they might disagree, or the chief of police, or the captain of the police department. Franklin: Well, you know, when I started this project, everybody was like, oh, you got to talk to Wally Webster, you got to talk to Wally Webster. It’s almost like you were still here. Webster: Yeah. Well, I think that’s because I was involved in so many things at such a young age, and like I said, I measured myself on progress. Whether it was the first black police officer, or whether it’s the East Pasco Neighborhood Council, or whether it’s the voter registration drive, whether it’s the hiring processes in Hanford and with the apprenticeship programs in labor unions, taking somebody out to Lamb Weston to go to work there. I just believed that you go based on results. I want to brag a little bit and just say the other thing is—not that the other way was bad, and it takes both—but I was not a—and still to this day, I’m not a militant person. I don’t try to threat to get the results that I’m looking for. I kind of use the analogy of water. You may get to the bottom of the cliff, but you can take the path of the least resistance to get there. So you try to manoeuver your way—it may take a little bit longer, but eventually you get there. You get there with less roadkill. And to me, I’ve always—I learned early, it’s not always just the what, but it’s also the how. So I treat people that way. That might be another reason why. Even though I’ve been in Alabama and faced segregation and grew up going to the other side, stepping off the sidewalk, and keeping my head down, and going to inferior schools—which you didn’t know you were going to an inferior school until you got someplace where you were challenged, right? In spite of all of that, I’m not bitter. I think all of those situations made me who I am today. And I think that made me a better person today. So I don’t know if that’s why, but that’s what I think. Franklin: Yeah. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Webster: I think the most important thing for them to know is why they are here and what happened. There was one incident I didn’t talk to you about, and this is—when they were building the Federal Building, we went to talk to the Federal Building to see how many African American jobs were going to be there, and we couldn’t get anybody to talk. Couple of us just sat right down in the middle of the—you know the gates that they put around the building when they’re doing construction and they open them up in the daytime for workers to go in and out? Dozers and everything. We just sat right down in the middle of the street, in the middle of the gateway, demanding to see somebody to tell us how many jobs going to be in this building. Not while it’s in construction, but after it’s finished. So I would like for them to know, especially those that are associated with Hanford, what went before them to create an awareness that got them there. It wasn’t just their education, the school that they graduated, and the degree that they hold, because there are a lot of people with those kinds of degrees that don’t have a job like they have at Battelle. But somebody paved the way. And they’re standing on the shoulders of somebody. And they just need to know that, as my dad used to say, if you see a turtle sitting on a fencepost, somebody helped him get there. And they got to know that they’re a turtle on a fencepost. They got to know that somebody helped you get there. You didn’t get there all by yourself. Because your legs are too short to wrap around a fencepost, you know? Franklin: I want to just—that’s an interesting story. So you sat down—you kind of blocked the construction way. What did you find out about the jobs there? Was there a direct action from that, or a result from that action? Webster: To be honest with you, there were direct actions from the construction employment. But I didn’t get immediate knowledge of a direct from the folks who occupied the office—occupied the building. I didn’t get direct results. But I will tell you that after working in the community with Hooper and Rutt, after coming to work in that building as employment manager for Boeing Computer Services and interacting with everyone there, I was able to influence. I was able to influence who worked there. Franklin: Was that— Webster: And there are people working today on this project, that I was telling you that I had the ability to recruit and hire on the spot, whether they were at Southern University or whether they were at Grambling State University or whether they were at some other school in Atlanta, Georgia, when we went to the Consortium of Historically Black Colleges down there, or we were in LA and hiring people there. Competing with Lockheed and others and when they were having layoffs. So I know people on both sides of the outlet today working at Hanford that came from my signing off a piece of paper, make them an offer, here’s an offer, subject-to. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: Right on. Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Webster: I think I’ve said it all that I can recall, but I would like to say that, again, that the Tri-Cities is where I grew up, where I matured as a man and as a person. It shaped my life. It gave me the incentive to do, not only more for myself, but it demonstrated to me what you can do for others, if you just take the time to do it. I am extremely pleased that my uncle plucked me out of Oakland and drove me to Pasco. Very, very pleased and happy that that happened. Franklin: Right on. Well, Wally, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us. Webster: This was a pleasure. Franklin: Same here. Webster: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Franklin: Yeah, awesome. <a href="https://youtu.be/qlfBMQp8Y-k">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Webster Subject The topic of the resource Mobile (Ala.) Oakland (Calif.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Migration Civil rights Civil rights movements African American colleges and universities Description An account of the resource Wally Webster moved to Pasco, Washington in 1962 and was influential in local and national Civil Rights movements. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/20/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fda26cb19779d92a2c99d388c60c061cb.JPG 2bdd1af2ebcb6e94b7a0dba47b60794e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jillian Gardner-Andrews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mel Adams Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jillian Gardner-Andrews: All right, so I just start talking and you start filming? Victor Vargas: Yeah. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. My name is Jillian Gardner-Andrews. I am conducting an oral history interview with Mel Adams on February 10th, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mel about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name for us? Mel Adams: Melvin Adams. M-E-L-V-I-N, A-D-A-M-S. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. All right, Mel, can you tell me how and why you came to the area to work on the Hanford Site? Adams: Well, I started out after I graduated from college being a science teacher in high school. Did that for about 12 years. And found that I really couldn’t make a very good living at that. So, my family and I just went back to school to get a degree in environmental engineering, which was a newly developing field at the time. Because I really wanted to work in the environmental area. And as I was about fit to finish my program, saw an ad in the paper. Rockwell Hanford, which is one of the contractors at that time, wanting environmental engineers. So I applied and they called me up here for an interview. It wasn’t long that we were moving up here. That was in 1979. So—do you want me to just keep going, or— Gardner-Andrews: Mm-hmm! Adams: At that time, the Site was still largely into plutonium production. So as far as I know, the group that I joined, under this crazy Irishman [LAUGHTER] named Hank McGuire, was the first group that dealt with environmental issues. So I may have been one of the first environmental engineers actually hired at Hanford. Because almost all the engineers were either chemical, and there were a few nuclear engineers. But that was the emphasis at that time. And then over the years, of course, the environmental work became more and more important. Finally, they stopped making plutonium. So there was rapid growth in the environmental cleanup area. At that time, I had enough experience under my belt to manage the environmental engineering group. That was really interesting. Gardner-Andrews: Where, specifically, onsite did you spend the majority of your time? Adams: Well, I was all over the place. My office was out at 200 East area. Which isn’t far from PUREX, if you know the Site. There’s an office building out there called 2750 East. All the buildings at Hanford have numbers and letters. Anyway, I was out there for many years. A few years, I was actually in town, and so I was kind of back and forth. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. And could you describe a typical work day for yourself? Adams: Well, when I was a junior engineer, it was mostly supporting the senior engineer and helping him write engineering studies and things of that sort. After I became a manager, it was quite different of course, because I had six different managers and their groups to look over, plus a large budget with a lot of subcontractors. So at that time, I spent a lot of time on training and a lot of time on budgets and didn’t get to do much of the engineering work myself. But I had to oversee it, make sure it was properly staffed and the work was being done safely and so forth. Gardner-Andrews: Could you explain what exactly an environmental engineer would do onsite? Adams: Yeah, the field of environmental engineering is—when I took the courses, it was largely involved with air pollution and treatment, and mostly water pollution—waste water treatment. And there were some courses in solid waste management. So, it was how to engineer things to keep the air clean, and clean up water, dispose of solid waste, that kind of thing. There was a heavy emphasis also on monitoring in the field to detect environmental problems. So we had a lot of biology and chemistry. And then there was a large legal aspect, because environmental law quickly became very complex. Particularly after the Nixon administration, when he created the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act and so forth. And there was large concern about cleaning up—have you heard the term RCRA sites? These are sites that were badly polluted and they had to be cleaned up and the sites restored. So that got us into soils—understanding soils. At Hanford, groundwater pollution was and still is a major issue. So there was an emphasis on also groundwater hydrology and how to clean up groundwater. So I’d say at Hanford, the part I worked in most was contaminated animals and plants, groundwater, solid waste, and contaminated soils. Gardner-Andrews: So the animals that were contaminated and plants, these are the ones on Site itself? Adams: Yeah, that’s less of a problem today, because my group made some progress and there’s been a lot more progress since. But what would happen is we had sites where there was a lot of water—just billions of gallons of waste water disposed in the soil—directly to the soil. That went on for years when the plants like PUREX were operating. So we had a lot of contaminated soils, and plants like the Russian thistle would go down 12 feet or so, and they were good at uptaking things like cesium and strontium, bringing them to the surface. And of course then when they became tumbleweeds, they would blow towards the river. This—the animals would—well, the plants would also be somewhat contaminated and the animals would then become contaminated, because they would eat—herbivores like rabbits and so forth. And then they would spread out and through their waste, they would spread contamination. So that was a real problem. It’s been largely solved now. But we also had a lot of other problems with animals, like we would get calls from people and offices with rattlesnakes under their desk, and spiders and all kinds of things like that. One of the most humorous stories was, my group were called the Bugs and Bunny Boys—or the Weeds. [LAUGHTER] And they were a pretty interesting group. But they got a call from Battelle one day and said, we’ve got some lab mice that have gotten loose, and it’s upsetting our experimental protocols. We need to get these guys back in their cages. So the Bugs and Bunny Boys were called on to solve that problem. So they said, well, we’re going to need a lot of peanut butter and rolled oats. So I gave them an emergency order so they could go to the store and buy lots of it. One day, my manager came in—what are you trying to do, feed your family on the federal budget? So I had to explain to him that this was bait for the traps, live traps, so we could get these mice back under control. And he finally went away, a little bit embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] But those are some of the kind of jobs we got. Their workplace was really like a bizarre morgue. They had all these freezers full of animals that had been collected and were due to be analyzed for radioactivity. So there’s lots of animals in this freezer, and there was plant specimens everywhere. Plant presses and microscopes. You go out in their garage, they had—it looked like a farm shed: all these machinery to spray plants. What they would do is each year go out and spray all the Russian thistles and then come in and plow it up and replant with native bunchgrass. Because the bunchgrass can’t go down nearly as far to bring up radionuclides. So that’s kind of some of the—that was one of the six groups I had, and I would say they were kind of the most interesting. [LAUGHTER] Gardner-Andrews: So would the environmental engineers themselves do the research on the animals? Adams: Yes. And we—well, sometimes they would have to get help from Battelle or specialists. But they would collect and do most of the analysis themselves and write reports and all of that. The soil cleanup was a different matter. That involved a lot of soil sampling and my group would actually go in and do some of the pilot scale cleanup where they’d go into the trenches and survey it. Then bring in backhoes or whatever tools were needed to clean it up. So we contracted out a lot of the work, but not all of it. Another aspect was groundwater. Hanford has thousands of wells that are used to sample groundwater. There’s still about a thousand-and-some that are used even to this day to take samples, probably about once a month. That way the groundwater hydrologist can tell which way the plumes are moving and whether they’re growing or shrinking. Then we would go in and use pump and treat—pump the water out, run it through a treatment plant, and put it back. And that worked. So the plumes at Hanford, for the most part, are shrinking, have been for quite a few years now. But there was over 100 square miles of polluted groundwater. So it was a major, major effort. But anyway, when we were drilling lots of wells, we had like 14 drill rigs in the field at a time, with all the mobile labs and mobile equipment that was needed to go with them. We had to use a certain kind of drilling rig, which we got from the Texas oilfields. [LAUGHTER] So that was interesting, because we had a lot of contractors we had to watch over, the drilling contractors. Another little-known thing that most people don’t understand is Hanford is obsessed with safety. Not just radiological safety, but physical safety. We had safety engineers and industrial hygienists working with us to make sure all the work was conducted safely. There was a lot of training, a lot of procedures, a lot of trial runs before you even went into the field. So that was an aspect of Hanford. People think it’s just a nightmare, but it’s not. It’s highly controlled, highly proceduralized, and everyone has a lot of training. So it’s done—the work was—I felt safer there than when I was a teacher. [LAUGHTER] So— Gardner-Andrews: Okay. So what would you say that the most challenging aspects of your work at Hanford were? Adams: Well, depending on the time when I was there—I mean, towards the end the challenges were mostly managerial. But there were some interesting engineering challenges, which I got to do and be involved in, or directly involved in, in some cases. One of them was that there was a requirement, a code of federal regulation, that said that if you’re going to leave waste in place—and there will be some left at Hanford when it’s all done; it’s unavoidable—that you need to mark the sites so that if someone comes along 10,000 years from now, that you can communicate the danger to them. Well, so, we had to develop some markers. Well, the problem is, are people still going to be speaking English that live here? Are we still going to have, you know, technology like DVDs or at that time floppy disks, or whatever? So how do you design a marker? Well, to do that—and that project, I was working on my own, because it was a small project, money-wise. So I contracted an archaeologist who had been at all these sites, like the Great Wall of China, the Acropolis, Stonehenge, and all of these places which have been around a long time. So we started analyzing them and trying to get some clues as to how to make these markers. And I remember that one of the things you don’t do is make them of metal, because, like on the Acropolis, there’s holes where there used to be large metal shields, and the shields have been lost because people would scavenge them. So we didn’t want to use metals. How large do you make the marker? Well, at Stonehenge, a lot of the stones less than twice human size were taken. So, it’s got to be at least twice human size. So we’re talking about a pretty big marker. And then we had to figure out what languages to put the warnings on. We ended up with the six languages of the United Nations. Then the Yakama Tribe came along and said, well, our language has been around a lot longer than yours. Use ours. Well, that’s a good idea, except they didn’t have a written language. They’ve been working on it, but we couldn’t really use it, because it wasn’t written—at least at that time. So once we decided on the languages, then we had to decide on what to put on the marker, how to incise the message so it doesn’t get eroded. And we put on maps, we put on warning pictograms like showing people digging and then collapsing, things like that, so people would get the idea. You don’t want to dig here. These ended up being like an obelisk made of granite that were about—what—16 feet high or so. We never actually built one of those, because they’re not needed yet. But basically the 200-East and West area would be surrounded by these markers, such that, if one was taken away, you could still reconstruct the perimeter. And then we decided to make some subsurface markers—small markers that could be put by the hundreds into a waste site, into a barrier. So if they started digging, they would pull up these brightly-colored with the radiation danger sign on them, magenta and yellow, with the symbol that showed what happens to you if you keep digging. You know, a little cartoon. So we made hundreds of those. Those were made out of—well, we did a lot of testing with this pottery works. All kinds of testing to make sure those would hold up in the ground. And of course, pottery has survived for thousands of years from burial sites. So we knew that they would last a long time. But they had to be tested with ASTM tests—American Society of Testing. And to make sure that the colors would be retained and that the colors wouldn’t fade, that they wouldn’t break up in the soil due to temperature or water fluctuation, things like that. So that was really an interesting project. We made a lot of those, and there’s actually a sample at the display case at Atomic Brew. If you look, when you go in Atomic Brew, they’ve got a lot of memorabilia from Hanford. Somehow they got ahold of a sample subsurface marker. They’re about this big. So that’s kind of interesting. Gardner-Andrews: Are any of the subsurface markers in place already? Adams: Yeah, there was a lab. I don’t remember the number of it—building number—that was entombed some years ago, and there were hundreds of those markers that were put into that entombment. Gardner-Andrews: And were the markers themselves made onsite? Adams: No. Actually, we had put those out to bid and they were ceramic, of course. There was a potter back in Vermont that won the bid and they made them. Then we sent them out to testing. So that was kind of a little interesting project, making markers. Both the large and the small ones. Gardner-Andrews: Do you know if they’ll still be using the small ones in the future? Adams: I hope so. It’s a good idea. Of course, they aren’t to the point yet where they’re going to start building large disposal barriers. And we planned to put those in when the barriers were built. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up ordering thousands of those, and they end up going into these barriers. Because it’s still a requirement. Like, there’s a very large landfill out at Hanford that my team did the first work on. There’s been thousands of truckloads and they’ve got these huge trucks of soils and solid waste that have been dug up and put into that landfill. Well, someday that’s going to have to have a barrier put over it to keep the water, plants and animals out. That was another fascinating project, to develop that barrier. So, probably they will distribute some of the subsurface markers in that barrier. Gardner-Andrews: Can you describe the project of building—creating the barriers for the landfills? Adams: Yeah. That was a development project, undertaken by my group and with quite a bit of support from Battelle. The idea was that we wanted a barrier that would be made primarily of natural materials and that would function according to natural ecological processes and would last hundreds, if not thousands, of years without a lot of maintenance—or any maintenance. So for that, we got this idea of using what’s called the outflow law, which says that if you’ve got a fine soil over coarser materials, that soil has to be completely saturated before it’ll break through. So we felt that since we only had six inches of rain a year—not this year. [LAUGHTER] That we could make a fine-layered barrier over a graded coarse layer barrier. And then plant that with native bunchgrass, which would, as the water accumulated, evapotranspirate the water out before it could break through. And then we also had like a gravel mulch which has been used since ancient times to help store the water in the soil layer, and also to prevent wind erosion. So that had to be carefully designed. And then—so we had the design and then—oh, we used archaeological analogs—or actually geologic analogs. As you know, this area was hit by huge floods of biblical proportions at the end of the last ice age. And when the icebergs grounded at Hanford—what’s now Hanford—they melted and left these mounds called bergmounds. And these mounds had been there for 10,000 years. And some of them, they were layered almost like our barrier. So we studied the bejeebers out of those, because they gave us clues of what could last. And then we had out there also caliche layers where the water would go down to the soil and then precipitate these calcium carbonate chemicals. The water couldn’t get through that caliche layer. So we wanted to know, how does that work? Finally, we got a design for this barrier, but then it had to be tested. So we tested it in wind tunnels, lysimeters, which were like big cylinders, highly instrumented, with the layers in there. And we stressed those with water—twice as much as we usually get—and wind. We even put live animals on there to see if the badgers would harm it. Actually, they helped the barrier performance. So there was a lot of field data collecting and research that had to be done. Then finally—this was about the time I retired—they built a full-scale barrier over one of the cribs. A crib was a water waste disposal, and some of these are highly contaminated soils. So they built one over this crib, and they’ve been monitoring now—Battelle has—for ten years or so. Actually more like 15. And keeping all kinds of data, and it seems to be working. Because the water, plants and animals are not getting through it. So that’s called the Hanford Barrier. That’ll probably be used in some form or another for this large landfill and other sites that are left behind. Gardner-Andrews: So how do they go about monitoring it to see if the water, plants and animals are affecting it? Adams: Well, they have instruments they can put down that keeps track of the soil water. They can go in an excavate some of the plants to see how deep they’ve gone. They can actually do a water balance; they can figure out the evaporation and how much rainfall has been on, snowfall, on the barrier. So there is quite a bit of instrumentation that they can use to do that. Gardner-Andrews: Do you think that the snowfall we’ve had this year will have an effect on that? Adams: No, not unless it amounts to more than 12 inches of water. And I doubt if it reaches that much. So they did irrigate the barrier—parts of it—twice the annual rainfall. It didn’t break through. They also set fires on the barrier, because we have range fires. The bunchgrass that they used is actually—the native bunchgrass is very fire resistant. I mean, it’ll burn, but it doesn’t destroy the roots. So it comes back right away. So it’s pretty well-thought-out, and so far the data looks pretty promising that these barriers will work. And the natural analogs told us that as well. Then of course, they also developed mathematical models so they could simulate if we put on four times of water, what do we predict? Those simulations looked pretty good. But you can’t rely just on simulations. You have to actually test it. Gardner-Andrews: Was there testing done for if an earthquake happened? Adams: Not specifically. But, actually Hanford’s in a fairly low earthquake risk area. But we were concerned with the barrier about collapses, particularly if there was a void underneath that could collapse during an earthquake. So we actually developed a big pile driver with ports welded on it such that we could—it was like a big I-beam. We could vibrate that in; at the same time we could inject grout, which is like a cement, to fill up those voids as we pulled the hammer out, would collapse the voids, and seal it up with concrete. So we’re pretty confident that earthquakes aren’t going to really destroy that barrier. It’s like a really sturdy foundation for a house, really, or anything else. My group did, though, manage the seismograph stations that are around Hanford, and they could tell us every day whether there’s an earthquake or not. So it was a really diverse group that we had. We even had historians. Yeah, because we found that to analyze these sites to get data was very expensive. You had to either go out there with drilling equipment and portable labs and all that. But it would be much cheaper if we could figure out from the records that were left behind what we were up against. But the records at Hanford were very scattered, loosely organized. A lot of them almost got thrown in the dumpster. So we hired—because there were so many letters. Turned out that letters were the major way of communicating in those days. We hired historians and librarians to go out and rescue these, catalog them, study them, so that our engineers would know what to expect in any given place. That saved us millions of dollars. Gardner-Andrews: Where would these historians find the letters? Adams: Well, that was part of the job, was to figure out where all of the files were and go to those places and try to round them up, put them in our big library, before they got destroyed for whatever reason. There were libraries around Hanford that were scattered. A lot of it was in engineers’ files, so we had to, you know, plead with the engineers to let us into those, so we could pull out things we needed. So it was a big job—records management at Hanford is—was—probably still is a big job. Gardner-Andrews: Do you know where those letters ended up? Adams: Well, when I left, they were in a library in 2750 East. We had a librarian. I don’t know if they still have a librarian. There was a lot of photos that were taken inside of tanks, which could be very valuable. Towards the end of my career out there, we started getting data overload. There was so much data being collected from the tanks of just about every isotope on the periodic table [LAUGHTER] that it was very hard to keep track of all this data. And the engineers wanted to know, okay, if we make a transfer from one tank to another, how does that change the chemical composition of both tanks? Sometimes it would take these engineers and scientists months to figure that out. So we went to Battelle with some money--[LAUGHTER]—a lot of money. And we said, build us an electronic database to have all this data cataloged and accessible. And they did a good job. But then we said, okay, now design us a way to do an automatic report when there’s a tank transfer. And they did that, so eventually the scientists could order a report from Battelle, a few hours later get back a report that used to take them months to do. Major breakthrough. I think that’s still in operation. Gardner-Andrews: And would that be more of a here’s-what-would-happen report, or was it more of a this-already-happened and now what chemicals are going inside? Adams: Well, at that time we were more interested in what happens when you make a transfer. But the tank data can be, of course, used—like with the Vitrification Plant—to project what’s there and figure out what it’s going to look like as it comes into their tanks. So it’s both. At that time, the major emphasis was on tank transfers. Gardner-Andrews: And was there major concerns for how certain chemicals would react with each other, in terms of—like, for lack of a better term—bad ways? Adams: Yeah, like what drugs are you taking here? Yes. That was a concern. That’s one of the things they looked at. If we do this transfer, what’s the waste going to look like? Are we going to have more concentrations of one thing that might adversely react with something else? Another thing was criticality. You know, if you get too much plutonium together at the right place at the right time and the right configuration, you get a nuclear reaction. It’s not like a mushroom cloud, but it’s the same concept. And we didn’t want criticalities: bad news. So they could use this to determine, hopefully, if there’s any critical elements building up during these transfers. Gardner-Andrews: And so, to avoid that, it would just be, don’t mix this tank with this tank? Adams: Or don’t move as much. Or, if you do, mix it with something else, so it doesn’t get concentrated. I mean, there’s a lot of ways to prevent criticality. One of my chapters in the book that I wrote is about one of the cribs, which I didn’t work on, but it’s so fascinating. There’d been so much plutonium put in that crib that they were actually—and a crib is basically a drainage field in the soil—that they thought it might go critical. It’s hard to think of enough plutonium being in the soil to create a—phew—you know. But they went in and started removing some. To do that, they had to use a robot. A robot, and they used a mechanical arm to dig some of it out. They ended up digging—I forget the exact figure—pounds of plutonium from that crib so it wouldn’t go critical. So, yeah, that was one of the concerns: criticality. One of my favorite sites at Hanford was called U Pond. When I got to Hanford, one of the first environmental engineers, we had four ponds where there’s billions of gallons of water going to these ponds for waste—for disposal. They would drain into the ground. He said, I want you to look at the laws that you studied in environmental school and tell me if we have any regulations coming up that are going to impact these ponds. So I remember my first document out there was Pond Management and the Law. And being fresh out of an environmental law class, I said, oh, man, you’re in for trouble! [LAUGHTER] There’s RCRA, there’s CERCLA, there’s TSCA, there’s a lot of other minor laws, and they’re going to have a major impact. Well, the document went out to review, mostly at that time, chemical engineers. And they said, well, this is nonsense. We only have to worry about the Atomic Energy Act. So the report got put in my desk and was basically shelved. About maybe two years later, [LAUGHTER] the Department of Energy signed an agreement with the Department of Ecology in the state of Washington and the EPA, saying, you must follow RCRA, CERCLA and comply with them. That was a huge impact—still is to this day. And so I pulled the document out. [LAUGHTER] One of the things I learned at Hanford: if you write a document that is not well-received, just put it away for six months, and then you’ll need it. So now—and that led to a lot of job opportunities. Because later on my group got involved in cataloging all the sites. Are they RCRA/CERCLA, who’s in charge of them, which regulations apply, and all of that, was a big job. Gardner-Andrews: And what do those acronyms stand for? Adams: Let’s see if I can remember. RCRA is Resource Environmental Conservation Act—Recovery Act. And CERCLA was the Comprehensive Environmental Reclamation Act—close. It’s been a while since I worked on those. So RCRA and CERCLA were big deals. Anyway, so environmental regulations are—take a lot of time to comply with at Hanford. And that’s—some people say, well, that’s just bureaucracy. Well, yes and no. The RCRA and CERCLA really helped us group the waste sites and manage them in such a way that was efficient. So it wasn’t all bad. It wasn’t all just paperwork. In fact, there was a lot of analysis that went in: what’s the best way to go about cleaning this up? And it forced you to look at options. Gardner-Andrews: What would you say are—or were—the most rewarding aspects of your work? Adams: Well, for many years, the most rewarding aspect is that we would write papers and get them published in journals and go to conferences and make presentations. It was a lot of original work. Because we were doing things that had never been done before. Towards the end of my career out there, that went away. Not necessarily because it was all done [LAUGHTER] but the emphasis changed to, let’s just go in there and get the job done. So there was less opportunity to be creative, to solve problems, and to present that to your peers. So that was a real loss. But that was certainly one of the most rewarding aspects of it, was to be able to do that. Gardner-Andrews: What are some of your memories of major events on the site or in the Tri-Cities, such as the plants shutting down or any local, political or social things that you can remember from your time in the Tri-Cities? Adams: Well, I’d say one of the biggest changes while I was there was the transition from plutonium production to cleanup. A lot of things changed. Like security was not as strict. Didn’t need a Q clearance any longer, which means that the federal officers wouldn’t come in and interview your neighbors every year—does he drink? Does he pay his bills? All that kind of stuff. So that kind of went away. Our lunchboxes were not searched as thoroughly coming in or going out. There isn’t any plutonium really left at Hanford, except in some of the waste sites, dispersed in the soil. So that’s really a big change. A lot of the buildings have been torn down that were problematic. Like one of my first assignments was, we had this laundry that washed contaminated clothes called whites. Every once in a while, there would be contaminated lint blowing around on the street. So we were sent over there and I was just a junior engineer at that time, with one of the senior guys, to figure out what was going wrong. We traced it to a piece of equipment in the laundry called the hydroclone, I think it was. And it was clogged up and it was—the wet lint was getting into some of the ducts and so forth, drying out, and then ending up blowing out onto the street. Which is kind of disconcerting. So we got the rotoclone cleaned out and back in service. Well, that laundry no longer exists. There’s a modern laundry that they built, I think in town here somewhere, that does the laundry now. And it’s all automated and everything. But that was the most bizarre place I’ve ever seen. Because you go in the laundry, there was a line painted on the floor. And one side was clean laundry; the other side was contaminated laundry. There was no barrier or anything. Just a line painted. And the procedures on each side were completely different. Like the people over there were wearing whites, had certain protocols. And on the clean side, you didn’t need to wear whites, you know. That kind of thing. Just really strange. So a lot of those facilities no longer exist. And just as well. But that was a big change. So the cultural change from more rigorous secrecy to less secrecy was a big change. Gardner-Andrews: And when did you start noticing that happening? Adams: Well, the plutonium—let’s see, PUREX shut down, I think it was in 1980—I have to look in my book to see. 1988 or something like that. So after that is when it really started to change. Now, right now they’re finishing tearing down the PFP, the Plutonium Finishing facility. And so that means that the plutonium’s all shipped out, a long time ago. And so that’s just a big change. Like, to get in that place, you had to be escorted, even though you had a Q clearance. Yeah, so that was one of the major ones. Another change is, like I said before, when I first went to work there, it was a culture dominated by chemical engineers. And that changed drastically, because now we needed a very diverse bunch, including geologists, groundwater hydrologists, biologists, historians, environmental chemists—you know, the whole—geophysics—we needed a whole bunch of different specialties. That was a big change. Particularly from a management point of view. Because now you had to manage all kinds of different engineers with different outlooks on life. That could be interesting at times. Gardner-Andrews: Going back to talking about security, before PUREX shut down and you noticed a drop in the secrecy and everything, how did the intense security and secrecy onsite affect your job? Adams: Well, like in my book, they ask me, don’t you have some pictures from your time working out there? I said, no, I was never allowed to take a camera in. To take a camera in, even after PUREX shut down, we had to get a special permit. Well, so, the secrecy was—you had to be careful what you took in your lunchbox. You didn’t want to lose your pass card, your ID card, because that could [LAUGHTER] cause you some problems. You were restricted from going into certain areas. All your documents had to be screened to see if there’s anything classified in them. Like I said, your security review wasn’t as rigorous; you didn’t have your coworkers or your neighbors, you know, saying, well, he’s smoking grass or whatever. When they asked questions, it would be unheard of today, like, is he a homosexual? You couldn’t do that today. Shouldn’t do that. But those were legitimate questions back in those days, I guess, because of the threat of blackmail. They were really worried about—they knew that there were foreign agents working to get access to information. So I guess anything that could cause you to be blackmailed, like being in debt, or drinking heavily, would be a concern. That all loosened up and changed, quite drastically. Let’s see, what else? Well, I guess those were kind of the main things. Like, my wife never saw where I worked. Never. So there was still some walls between you and your family. I remember sometimes I’d go out and work overtime, and walk out into the hall, and all the sudden there’d be a guy with a rifle, or a woman with a rifle, body armor, the whole nine yards, pointing the gun at you. What are you doing here? And I’d have to pull out my ID real quick. [LAUGHTER] So there was constant patrols all over the place. Gardner-Andrews: Why would it matter what’s in your lunchbox? Adams: Well, they didn’t want you bringing anything in that might blow up or contain a tape recorder or a camera or anything that could be used to gather information. Same way going out, they didn’t want you going out with a tape recorder or a classified document or whatever. It was very, very rigorous. Gardner-Andrews: And when you mentioned that your wife never went to where you worked, did you find it difficult to talk about what you were doing? Were you concerned about talking to your wife or family members about the work you did onsite? Adams: Not so much, but in the early days of Hanford, that was really something. I mean, until the bomb was dropped, there was probably only half a dozen people that knew what 50,000 people were building out here, you know. And it was very rigorous security. I didn’t hesitate to talk much about what I did, except there were certain projects where I had to use classified documents. And I couldn’t talk about those. But she was restricted from coming out to the Site. Now, I understand that’s changed somewhat. It’s easier to get a pass to go to your son-and-daughter work day, that kind of thing. But yeah, it was—and that didn’t bother me. I mean, that was just part of the job. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford? Or living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Adams: Well, during the Cold War, it probably wasn’t any more tense living here than it would be anywhere else. I mean, most of the neighbors didn’t build fallout shelters that I know of. When I was a kid, of course we had, you know, drills where we had to crawl under our desks, that kind of thing. So I did notice that the Tri-Cities had, and still does to some extent, a very unique culture. It’s not so much a culture of secrecy anymore. But you can still see the influence of the early days of Hanford if you look for them. Particularly some of the old-timers are—you know. [LAUGHTER] Of course they’d probably consider me to be an old-timer now, but—are not as willing to talk about it as some of the younger folks. There was a time when, before Richland became a city, that if your light bulb went out, you just called up the GSA, and they’d come and change it. [LAUGHTER] That doesn’t happen anymore. [LAUGHTER] Once Richland became a city, everything changed as far as—you could buy a house, including a government house. Like, I go to one of the first four churches that was actually established by the government in the beginning. Now there’s all kinds of churches. But at the beginning there was only four churches, and they were sponsored by the government. So kind of interesting. You don’t find many places where that is the case. Also, many of the street names in Richland were named after officers that graduated from West Point that worked in the Corps of Engineers, and those are the street names. For instance, I live on Goethals Street. Goethals was a West Point graduate, worked for the Army Corps of Engineers, and he is the one that finished building the Panama Canal. Who would’ve thought? So even the streets are named after, you know, a certain class of people—certain people. So that’s part of the culture. Gardner-Andrews: Did you find it to be shocking, I guess, going from being a high school teacher to an environmental engineer? [LAUGHTER] Adams: Being an environmental engineer was a lot easier job. [LAUGHTER] And it paid better. [LAUGHTER] A lot easier job. I found some of the things I learned teaching high school helped me a lot on how to manage people and motivate people. Really helped me a lot. So I didn’t—other than being glad to be out of the classroom for a while—now I’ve kind of gone back to it; I teach science in my basement to kids. Gardner-Andrews: Oh, really? Adams: But—well, my wife teaches piano and some of them want to do science also, so they just come downstairs. Anyway, no, I didn’t notice a big difference, as far as—except it was a lot easier work. I do remember, they sent me to a week at UCLA management school one time. And this was many years ago. There was an executive from Silicon Valley there, and he said, you need four kinds of people in any successful organization: artists, judges, warriors, and explorers. Well, almost everyone at Hanford was either a judge or a warrior. There weren’t any artists; there weren’t explorers. Well, I actually took that advice to heart, and when I started hiring for the environmental engineer group, we brought in—it doesn’t mean they have a degree in art, but—people with more of an artistic temperament that could present things attractively, and people willing to explore new ideas. That helped a lot. Being a teacher, you were surrounded by people of diverse fields. Whether you wanted to be or not. Like, we had an ongoing battle with the English department. Like, you’d send a student over there to the reading specialist, and they would say—I’d say, he can’t read. And they’d come back after doing some tests: yeah, you’re right, he can’t read. Well, what are you going to do about it? I don’t have time to teach him to read. That kind of thing was very irritating. I found that some teachers were really slackers, and they wanted to be carried by the union and they were, to some degree. And I didn’t like that. [LAUGHTER] So I was kind of glad to leave teaching. But I did bring a lot of those skills with me. Gardner-Andrews: All right. Can you tell me about your books, but specifically your most recent one? Adams: Okay. Well, WSU has published three of my books—WSU Press. One was about the time I retired, which has been 14 years now. It was about growing up in the desert of Oregon, eastern Oregon. It’s called Netting the Sun. It was kind of a memoir, but like my latest book, it kind of wove the cultural and physical geography and history through the memoir. Then about a year ago, they published another book about eastern Oregon which was more of a guidebook with maps and photos, called Remote Wonders. And it has a pull-out map and a lot of photos. It’s designed to take you on a trip around the eastern Oregon outback, and see a lot of the interesting places that I knew growing up as a kid, that I’ve gone back to many times. My most recent book came out about three months ago. It’s called Atomic Geography, and it’s a personal history of Hanford. It kind of weaves some of the stories of Hanford and some of the cultural history of Hanford through my personal experiences. It’s not a real long book. It’s definitely written for the general reader, and it’s gotten really good reviews. It was named one of the top ten books from university presses this year. And that’s good, because university presses publish a lot of books. So I don’t know how well it’s selling, but I think it’s selling okay. They only pay me once a year, so. Anyway, WSU Press has been really fun to work with, but it takes about two or three years to get through the process of writing a book, they have to go through all of their committees, and there’s all kinds of editorial steps: it’s a long process. But that Hanford book is intended for the general reader. You can get a flavor of how the culture’s changed going clear back to the fishing by the tribes. You can get a feel of what’s out there: plants, animals, geology. Some of the engineering challenges, I go through in the book. And some of the supreme ironies of Hanford. Let me think here. Probably the major irony of Hanford is it’s basically a huge wildlife refuge! It’s not a wasteland, like a lot of people think. It’s 580 square miles, but only about 100 square miles of it—and most of that’s groundwater contamination—was ever used for any kind of activity that created waste. And part of it is now a national monument and a national park. So, yeah, it’s really irony. [LAUGHTER] Gardner-Andrews: Okay, Mel, is there anything we haven’t discussed yet that you want to talk about? Adams: I don’t think so. I’m kind of running out of steam. I’d just summarize by saying it’s a really strange, bizarre and interesting place. Gardner-Andrews: That it is, I agree. All right, well, thank you so much, Mel. Adams: Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/N3s8V4Mll-c">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area PUREX 2750 East Building Vitrification Plant PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1979- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1979-2003 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mel Adams Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Environmental engineering Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource Mel Adams moved to Richland, Washington in 1979 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1979-2003. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/10/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc3fa2945a233debbf97729f37ac460ce.JPG dd1b10256a2b922e96d8e6590c70ede7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Douglas Alford Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Douglas Alford on January 22, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Doug about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Douglas Alford: Madden Douglas Alford. Now you want me to spell it? Franklin: Yes, please. Alford: The last name? Oh. M-A-D-D-E-N. D-O-U-G-L-A-S. A-L-F-O-R-D. Franklin: Great, thanks. And you prefer to go by Doug, right? Alford: Yes. Franklin: Okay, great. So, Doug, tell me how you came to work for the Hanford Site. Alford: I came in 1951. Franklin: Okay. And how did you hear about Hanford? Alford: Pardon? Franklin: How did you hear about Hanford? Alford: Well, I went to school at Central Washington in Ellensburg. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: And so I was familiar with it. Franklin: Where are you from originally? Alford: Well, I was born in North Dakota. Franklin: Okay. And when did you come to Washington? Alford: I came to Washington in 1934. Franklin: Okay. Why did your parents come to Washington? Alford: My dad was a farmer. We had three years of no crops whatsoever. Dust blowing. It was a lot worse than—you’ve heard about the dust blowing here at Hanford, but it didn’t hold a candle to what we had in North Dakota. Let’s see. Well, my dad sold the place for $1600. It was a section of ground, but that’s all he got. So, when we came out, we came over with two cars. The lead car was a Model T Ford, and he was a relative of my mother. And then we followed him and we came over the Rocky Mountains. It was just a gravel road at that time. Franklin: Wow. Alford: It was quite a trip. We were in the second car, so there was a lot of dust. Every once in a while, we’d lose him ahead of us. But [LAUGHTER] we’d back off a little bit and we’d find out he was there. Franklin: How old were you when you made the trip? Alford: About—I left about when I was seven years old. Franklin: Okay, so you were born in—what year were you born? Alford: ’25. Franklin: ’25, okay. Wow, that sounds like quite a journey, driving from North Dakota. Where did your parents settle when they came to Washington? Alford: It was Kirkland, Washington. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what made you choose Central Washington College? Alford: What year? Franklin: Why did you go to Central Washington? Alford: Well, I was in the Navy prior to that. I just—I had always planned to go to college, so. I think that was in 1946. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Alford: ’46. I think I started at college and didn’t like it too well and I quit after a quarter or two. And then went back the next year and finished my degree in chemistry. Franklin: In chemistry, right. And then you—when did you come to Hanford? What year did you come to Hanford? Alford: That was 1951. Franklin: And what did you do? What was your first job at Hanford? Alford: The first job—I had about ten or twelve lady laboratory technicians that I was supervising. I think I did that about three years, three or four years. It didn’t appeal to me after a while. Franklin: Yeah? Alford: I thought there might be something a little better. Franklin: Okay. And what did you move on to? Alford: Well, I quit Hanford and worked—a friend of mine up in Prosser on a farm. But that was supposedly a year-round job, and it didn’t pan out that way somehow. So I called my friend, Fred Clagett. He was the mayor of Richland at that time, but he also worked in personnel at Hanford. And I told him I’d like my job back, but I don’t want the same one. And he said, that’s fine, and he even gave me a raise. Franklin: Wow. Alford: But I did spend a little time reading pocket books and things like that until my clearance came. That was customary for most everybody coming in. You just sat there and read and had to wait for your Q clearance. Franklin: The Q clearance, right. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So what job did you hire back in as? Alford: In engineering—an engineer. I guess they call it an Engineer I or something like that. That was much more appealing to me. I had that on one of those write-ups I had. I don’t know whether you have it or not. Franklin: I do, yeah, it says that you worked in the 300 Area. Alford: Yeah, that’s the 300 Area. Franklin: What kind of duties did you do as an engineer there in the 300 Area? Alford: You know, I might have to have one of those myself to remind myself. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay. There you go. Yeah, that’s all right. Visual aids are encouraged. So it says here you worked doing cold pilot plant work and the recovery of uranium from simulated solvent extraction products, which contained urinal nitrate hexahydrate. Alford: Yeah, that was the first job. Uranyl nitrate—when you brought the slugs in from the—or the fuel elements in from the 100 Areas, we’d dissolve them in nitric acid. We’d always—so they’re mainly the uranium slug. We took the solution, the uranium solution and put it in a calciner at a pretty high temperature, and we’d come out with uranium oxide. That was the—we were just testing what temperatures we needed to run that and things like that. Franklin: So you’re basically trying to recapture the uranium, during the process— Alford: Yes. Franklin: So you could probably re-put it in other fuel? You could refuel it. Alford: Yeah, it could be reused—the uranium could be reused. And then we also ran cold operations in a little bit of a pilot plant, to separate—trying to separate the strontium and cesium out of the solvent-extracted waste. The solvent extraction is a number of steel columns. The first one, the waste stream from the first one contains all the fission products. Downstream, the different columns, we’d get the strontium, cesium isolated there. Franklin: What was the purpose of isolating the strontium and cesium? Alford: They’re a fission product, a long-lived fission product. So for one thing, Oak Ridge was looking for cesium-137 for medicinal work, actually. But they’re both long-lived isotopes. We figured we had to get rid of them later on so we could isolate them. They’re a really—in the waste stream. There’s more work downstream. We moved from—that was in the 300 Area, and then we moved to the 200-East Area, what we called the hot pilot plant at that time, semi-works and we just continued the pilot scale work that we were doing in the 300 Area, just on a slightly larger scale. But that, at the semi-works, we were on actual PUREX waste stream that contained the strontium and cesium. Franklin: So you were receiving the waste as it was exiting the PUREX plant— Alford: Yes. Franklin: But you weren’t extracting all of—you weren’t using all of the waste, right, just a portion of the waste? Alford: No, just a very small portion of it. Franklin: So that’s how a lot of that strontium and cesium ended up in the waste tanks later on. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Because you couldn’t—so, when you would extract it, you said you used to the cesium—Oak Ridge wanted the cesium. What was the strontium used—was it just extracted because it was so radioactive, or did it have an application? Alford: Well, we extracted it because it’s a long-lived—it’s a 90-year half-life, and it’s something we just simply had to—I think it’s still stored out at Hanford, probably, in large lead casks. There’s a lot of strontium and cesium in the tanks out there also. But from the pilot plant at the semi-works, I moved to B Plant. That’s a full-scale operation. We ran around the clock. We had four shifts. I think—I don’t remember exactly how many—but anyhow, my part of that one, I was writing the—I had several engineers and a couple technicians, and we wrote the—took the procedures from the other research and engineering people in the building. They told us how to do it, but then we put it into operating procedures for our operators. That’s what I did; it’s called Process Control. We wrote the operating—that was a—I guess I was—well, I moved from there to the manager of B Plant operations. Franklin: So, B Plant was effectively a copy of T Plant, right? It was a Manhattan Project era canyon. Alford: Yes. Franklin: What process were you operating at the time? What were you processing at B Plant? Alford: At B Plant, we had large-scale solvent extraction columns. They were just enlarged from the pilot plant. It was initial pilot plant in the 300 Area, then semi-works was upgraded a little bit, and then B Plant was big, steel columns. And you got solution—aqueous solution going in and organic solution going in, and they were pulsating. This is how we’d separate one from another—one isotope from another. Franklin: What isotopes were you separating in B Plant? Alford: Well, we weren’t actually—just separating the waste stream. Finally getting the plutonium out of the—to send to the—well, the Plutonium Finishing Plant, that’s the one that they’re having trouble with right now. Franklin: Yeah, 234-5. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So in B Plant, you were separating plutonium. You were taking this solution in, and then separating the plutonium out from the waste stream. Alford: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And you did this—this was all done remotely, right? Alford: Right, yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that a bit. What were the challenges in doing this work remotely? Alford: Well, the cover blocks sit over the cells. We’d have about five cells, and you’ve got cover blocks over each cell, several. I think about three cover blocks: one on each side and a middle one. Those cover blocks weigh about 70 tons each. Franklin: Wow. Alford: And then it’s all stainless steel piping in the processing cell. And then we have a big gantry crane that moves over. The crane operator, when he gets—if we have to make a rooting change in the cell, he removes the cover blocks, and he has remote—we have remote connectors on every—we call them jumpers, that’s the solution transfer pipe from one to the other. And he’d make that whatever transfer or connection we needed, and then cover blocks go back on. That was the—we were always, of course, in a down period when that happened. Franklin: What do you mean, a down period? Alford: Well, I mean, we weren’t operating when the cells were open. Franklin: So you said that each cover block weighs 70 tons? Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So that’s concrete—those are concrete blocks, right? Alford: Well, they were—I’ve forgotten how big they are now. I think they’re seven feet thick and I’m not sure how wide. Franklin: That’s huge. Alford: The cell was about—well, one cell was probably 20 feet or so. 20 by maybe 15 or something. I don’t remember exactly. Maybe 10 by 20. I can’t remember that. Franklin: That’s okay. So I imagine that in that area, you would be on the other side of a thick concrete wall, sampling and observing the process. You wouldn’t actually be in the gallery, right? Alford: No. Franklin: Because it was too radioactive in there. Alford: Right. Franklin: How did the operators see—did the operator have a direct line of sight on what he’s doing, or how did you shield the crane operator from the radioactivity? Alford: Well, the crane operator, he had lead shielding underneath him and whatnot. He had lead shielding all around his cab. Our operators, they would have to go in to take process samples routinely. At that time, they were getting more exposure than we liked. That’s where I devised a sampler that reduced their time in there. I applied for a patent on it, but they told me that I used vacuum so that invalidated the—I can’t imagine why. But anyhow, it did the job for the operators. They still call it the Alford connector. Franklin: Oh, that’s cool. I’m wondering if you can describe this Alford connector. What did it look like and how was it an improvement over the existing sampler? Alford: Well, the only thing that it improved, it took a lot less time to take the sample, so they weren’t exposed—they weren’t in the canyon as long as they would have before. Franklin: Would the block have to be off for them to take the sample? Alford: No, they have—the blocks are all on, and we were operating at that time. But you have to take successive samples to go to the analytical lab, and that’s where these ladies were working. Franklin: Oh, right. So how would—if the blocks are on and the stuff is in the cell and it’s connected by a jumper, how would you get a sample out? Where was the— Alford: Well, the sample port is built in. There’s an entryway in the cell cover block itself. It’s not a straight line; it’s a curved line to reduce radiation. But I think that’s— Franklin: That’s really interesting. Alford: There is one little—when I moved in from process control to the manager of the plant, I could always—a little bit of a smell in the office, and I couldn’t figure it out. And, I don’t know, I asked somebody what it might be. Well, it turned out to be, the crane operator, in order to come back down out of that crane and change clothes and go to the bathroom—well, he had to urinate. And this thing ended up in my office. He didn’t run right in the office, but that was the smell that I heard. Franklin: Oh, wow. Alford: It took us a while to uncover the problem there. [LAUGHTER] The crane operator didn’t admit it, but— Franklin: It’s a waste stream of a different kind, huh? Alford: Yeah! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, man. Okay. So what were some of the challenges of working in B Plant? Alford: Well, one of the things that, even when I was process control, but more often when I became manager, I’d get more night calls than I wanted. If we have a stream that’s—if you have a waste stream going out and the radiation is higher than it should be, or when we dump the acid, some of the acid waste into the tanks, it’s supposed to be neutralized before it goes to the tank. Occasionally, the guys would fail to neutralize it, and we’d get a little bit of a burp out in the Tank Farm. Well, we had normal problems with operators and engineers—nothing unusual, I guess. They weren’t— Franklin: I imagine, all that shielding and not being able to directly see what was going on, was that challenging? To have all of that shielding between you and what was actually happening there? Alford: Yeah. We had to depend on—we had a lot of control instruments. You know, just like, they’re reading all the—on the graphs—I can’t remember now what exactly we did, I mean. But the chemical operators, they’re on the outside. They’re not in the area of the canyon. There’s probably a six-foot wall between them, between them and the canyon. So they weren’t in a radiation zone. But the only ones that—we had to send samplers in every so often. I had a boss that was pretty persnickety. He was—at least occasionally one of my supervisors would call him instead of calling me first. And then he’d call me, and then I’d have to pretend like I knew about it. It was a little bit of a game that we played. But he’s what I’d call a perfectionist. I know when I had to write monthly reports every month, I thought I had the perfect report one time, but he called me and told me I had the wrong year. It was right after New Year’s, and I still had the—so I missed that, even. But he was a real good boss. Franklin: What kinds of things were you sampling for, when you’d take the samples? What was the purpose of the samples? Alford: The what? Franklin: What was the purpose of the samples? You’d talked earlier about taking samples. Why’d you need to take samples periodically? Alford: Well, the whole process is lined out, different columns are supposed to be a certain composition if the thing is running like it should, the flow sheet. If it’s off-standard or something, we want to know about it to correct it. That’s mainly the reason for the samples. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: Occasionally, if we couldn’t get the right—well, occasionally the lab technicians that we’d send the samples to, they’d have a problem or so, and we’d have to re-sample the tank and re-sample the columns and so forth. Franklin: What was the most rewarding aspect of your work at B Plant? Alford: The most rewarding? Franklin: Yeah. Alford: I guess the people. I had a real good bunch of people and we got along very well and they were very dependable. And I learned a lot along the way. Let’s see. After B Plant, I went to the PUREX plant. Franklin: Okay. Alford: And at that time, at the PUREX plant was where we had the first cesium leak in the Tank Farm in the 2-West area. That was really the first—these are million-gallon tanks, and it’s hard to measure an inch difference. An inch drop can be quite a few gallons in that tank. Franklin: Yeah. Right! Alford: But anyhow, that first leak, we went to—my engineering assistant, he carpooled with me. And he told me, I think we got a problem over in 2-West. I told him, I don’t want to hear about it now. But I heard about it the next morning. Franklin: I bet. Alford: And then my boss, Bill Harley, and I had to go down and talk to the, at that time, the AEC people. In the course of the conversation, I mentioned to them that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg and it’s inevitable that there’s going to be more. And we found out that we’ve had a lot—even in the double-shell tanks now. We haven’t ever had anything out of the double-shell tanks, but a lot of the single-shell tanks are giving us problems. That’s one of the things we’re trying to get things into the double-shell tanks, and there’s even some talk maybe of building more. I don’t know. A lot of it is politics, probably. Franklin: Yeah. So this leak you’re talking about in 200 West was in the single-shell tank? Alford: What was that? Franklin: The leak in 2-West was in a single-shell tank? Alford: Yeah, they all—2-East and 2-West were all single-shell initially. I’ve forgotten the time, but we went to double-shell tanks for additional containment. And now we’re trying to—we’ve got an evaporator running and we’re trying to move the solutions from the single-shells to the double-shell tanks. Franklin: Right. Alford: And that’s one of the things that the vitrification plant is supposed to go, but that’s why behind schedule and way over budget and so forth. Franklin: Sure is. Alford: Yeah, it is. Franklin: Yeah. I’d like to talk a bit more about the tanks. Were they intended to be long-term storage, or was there any thought given to long-term storage in the early years of Hanford production? What was the discussion about the waste problem when you started at Hanford? Alford: Well, the main emphasis at the time that I worked there, we were trying to get enough plutonium down to Rocky Flats to build a bomb. We didn’t really—had we been able to do it over again, there’s a lot of changes we probably would’ve made. But we probably did some things like when the slugs would come in on the train cars from the 100 Areas, we’d always dissolve them at night. Because there’d be a little bit of a nitric acid cloud, and we could—that’s one of the things that we had to shut the PUREX plant down, eventually. We did shut it down. We only had about probably three or four, maybe five months of processing, and we’d have processed all the fuel. But then the AEC in Washington, DC said shut it down. So that’s what we did. I kind of lost my train of thought for a minute there. Franklin: That’s okay. That’s fine, we can move on. I’d like to go back in time a little bit and ask you—so you came to Hanford in 1951, right? Alford: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So at that time, Richland was all—it was still a government town, when you moved here, right, and GE ran the town services. Alford: Right. Franklin: Where did you live when you first got here? Did you live in Richland? Alford: Yeah, we lived in Richland. Two-bedroom prefab. If I remember correctly, it was on McPherson Street. I don’t know if that’s still here or not. Franklin: It is. I used to live right—when I first lived here, I lived in a two-bedroom prefab myself, on Stanton. Alford: Is that right? Franklin: Which is very close to McPherson, yeah. Alford: Yeah. They were all Alphabet Homes. Franklin: How long did you live in the two-bedroom prefab? And how many people—did you have a family at the time? Alford: Oh, yeah. We had two kids, Christine and my son that’s—he passed away here, three, four years ago—at that time, and then middle-aged son, he was on the way. That’s why I decided that it might be better to work at Hanford than work at the farm, which wasn’t quite as reliable. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah, you had a family to take care of. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: What was your wife’s name? Alford: Beverly. Franklin: And what did she do when you lived in Richland? Was she stay-at-home, or did she work as well? Alford: No, she stayed home. She was a very good homemaker. I have to hand it to her that I’ve lived as long as I’ve lived because she’s really a good, healthful cook. Franklin: Oh, good. Alford: She cooked— Franklin: What did you think about Richland when you first moved into town? I assume it was probably the first time you’d ever lived in a government town. What struck you as—what stands out? Was there anything that struck you as odd or different about Richland when you moved here? Alford: Well, I can’t think of anything—the one thing, when I needed anything in the way of hardware, to repair something, I always had to go to Pasco at that time to get it. And then when I came back in ’54 from that one year of farming, we moved into another house, and I don’t remember what it was. But we eventually moved to Pasco not long after that, because it seemed like everything we needed was in Pasco. There just wasn’t much available in Richland at that time. Franklin: Right, you’re saying that kind of the commercial sector was lacking. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And then did you stay in Pasco for the rest of your time at Hanford? Alford: Yeah, then we lived in Pasco for—I don’t remember now when we moved to Pasco, but, yeah, we were still there and we moved around a few times. But we’re— Franklin: How did you—I assume when you first came to Hanford, you had to take the bus out. Did you take the bus out to work? Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Can you talk about that? What was that like? What kind of schedule did it run? Alford: I worked on the day shift all the time that I was out there. I didn’t have shift work to do. But the buses were good. They had a lot of people that played cards on the way out and on the way back and whatnot. But I didn’t get involved with that. But it was a chance to get caught up on some reading and things like that. But later on, I started driving, because I would, quite often, be in a meeting that was still going on when the buses left. So I either had to get out there and hitchhike or—I had a government car quite often. But many times, I finally just decided just to drive and then I could—because it seemed like we were in a lot of meetings and my boss, he was pretty good, but he had a staff meeting, he’d always have it at 11:00, so that people couldn’t hold over. Franklin: How has the Tri-Cities changed since you first moved here? Alford: How what? Franklin: How has the Tri-Cities changed since you first moved here? Alford: Oh, boy. It’s just—it’s more recent, the change I’ve seen, really has picked up the pace. It really—I can’t say, except the growth here in the past ten years has just been phenomenal. Franklin: Were you working—you were working out onsite when President Kennedy came to visit. Alford: Yes. Franklin: Did you go to see him? Alford: Yes, I did. Franklin: And did your family come as well? Alford: And I think my wife and I came. I can’t—but not the kids. The kids were in school. Franklin: Okay. What do you remember about that day? Alford: Well, I thought he did a nice—he was a very, very good speaker. I always liked him; he was a Navy man just like I was. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: He was a good democrat. Franklin: Okay. So I guess we’ll go forward again. Thanks for—I’m always interested about the social aspects of Tri-Cities in the past. So you were at—we talked about the tanks, and then the leaking. And then you were at PUREX plant when it shut down, right? Alford: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So after PUREX plant shut down, you went to work for the Basalt Waste Isolation Project. Alford: Yeah. There’s a little story there that— Franklin: Okay. Alford: I probably—I don’t—when the leak—when we went downtown, there was a meeting with DOE—DOE, you know, runs the show. I don’t know if this—heads have to roll when something happens. Franklin: Right. They sure do. Alford: The supervisor on the 2-West Tank Farms, we had to walk him off the plant. My Tank Farm manager had to walk him off the plant. And I’m not going to name names, but—and then my Tank Farm manager, I don’t know how exactly he—he got sidelined. You might also—I got sidelined. I moved from an operations manager to a staff manager on a slightly different job. The operations—it was, you might say, a slight downgrade. But my boss, Bill Harley, I think he—I forgot what happened on him right now. Anyhow, quite a few of us got penalized one way or the other. I don’t know if this is something that it should go into the records or not. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, I think— Alford: It’s just one of those things that happened. Franklin: Sure. Alford: Anyhow, I went to the staff manager for a while but I don’t know how long I was in that now, but it was just administrative work. Then I moved downtown to the Basalt Waste Isolation Project. That was pretty interesting. The problem there, we were testing the basalt in Gable Mountain to see if it would be a suitable location for highly radioactive waste casks. Solidified casks. Due to the high radiation that would be, the tunnels had to be self-supporting. We couldn’t use timbers because they wouldn’t hold up. So we took core samples of the basalt to see if it was under stress. When we pushed the two-inch core sample out of the gun, it would just pop off like checkers, and that told us that it was under stress, and it would never work. At that time, I had a talk with my boss about whether we should just ‘fess up to the fact that it’s no good and we might as well not waste any more taxpayer money, but that was the wrong thing to say, too. So it wasn’t long after that, I was, I think, in the basalt project. I think probably a couple, three years. And I also at that time, I was downtown, and I used the kind of flexible hours and I was starting to farm. And so early in the morning I’d make the rounds of circles to see if everything was all right. Then I’d call my friend that I later on worked for to tell him it’s fine, and then I’d go to work. And I would be able to—I got my time in, but I got a little bit different hours than some of the others and it worked out pretty well. After a couple, three years on that, I decided to retire. It was after kind of—you might want to edit this out, too. My boss sent me out to talk to the psychiatrist. I called him the shrink. He happened to be—after he was the head of the—superintendent of Pasco Schools, I think. But anyhow long after that I decided to go farming full-time. When I didn’t have a long commute to Hanford, I suddenly found myself with a lot of spare time. Along with the spud farming and so forth, I decided to put a vineyard in, a wine grape vineyard in Block 1. We did that—I think that was 1982 that I retired. ’82, yeah. We put the first half of the vineyard in in 1983 and the second half in 1985. We got crops and we didn’t intend to stay in business, but I had Dr. Clore, my consultant at that time. When we got a crop, the varieties and the yields and whatnot established on the vineyard, that’s when we decided to sell it. That’s what our original plan was. It was located along the river, a good location, but I had grown spuds prior to that, but it was a little too rocky for spud-growing, so that’s why we put the vineyard in. Franklin: What did you do after you sold it? You just retired full-time? Alford: Yeah. I retired and I farmed full-time, spuds and corn and wheat, down in Oregon a little bit. But most of it around here. And then the wine grapes. Franklin: Okay. Oh, sorry, were you going to say something? Alford: Pardon? Franklin: Oh, nothing, never mind. In what ways did the security or secrecy at the Hanford Site impact your work there? Alford: Did--? Franklin: How did security and secrecy affect your work at the Hanford Site? Alford: Well, we had to, one thing, if our filing cabinet wasn’t locked, security would make the rounds, and if it was unlocked, they would call you at home and you—we didn’t have to immediately go out, but the next morning we had to out and verify that everything was the way it was. When you’ve got four drawers and they’re not all secret documents, but there’s enough there that there’s no way that I could remember what was—but we managed to get by it. Franklin: Did that ever happen to you? Alford: No. Franklin: Oh. Alford: No, but another thing that’s a little bit humorous that happened to be at B Plant was, I would find orange peelings on my desk sometime when I’d come in. And we finally tracked it down. I had the shift people to keep an eye out, and it was a raccoon that came in and floated around and got in the waste basket. [LAUGHTER] That’s where he— Franklin: That’s pretty amazing. All that security and the raccoon was just kind of moving in there as he pleases. Alford: He was—I don’t know what kind of clearance he had or not. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you ever encounter any snakes? Alford: Not that I can recall. Franklin: Okay. Any other ways that secrecy or security impacted you when you were working there? Alford: No, I don’t think so. I was pretty careful not to bring stuff home. Because it was—Patrol—I very seldom brought work home. I never brought anything home, you know, that required a Q clearance. Franklin: Okay. It says here in your bio that at times you accompanied the personnel department on trips to universities to interview students to work at Hanford. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk a bit about that. What kinds of people were you looking for? Alford: Yeah. We usually, I would go as an operations-type. But the personnel office, they’d invite maybe an engineer, they’d invite me and a manager or something like that. We were looking at third-year kids, mostly. Most of my—I can’t remember every—University of Colorado and University of Wyoming and Brigham Young University, and Utah State were some of them. I guess there were others. But if a student looked like a reasonable hire, we’d bring him in for an interview. And then somebody—but there were only third year students, so—I’ve forgotten now. There’s—I can’t recall just exactly how that intervening year, that subsequent year, how we handled that. But the personnel department would keep in touch with these students that looked good to us. But we didn’t have the authority to hire anybody in, but we were just scoping— Franklin: Did you ever get asked any strange questions by students, or did they ever ask you things you couldn’t talk about? Alford: They what? Franklin: Did they ever ask you any strange questions, the students, or— Alford: Oh, they may have. But I can’t recall. In Salt Lake one time, I was interviewing in the morning, and I went out to lunch—you know, it’s right on the leeward side of the Rocky Mountains. We had quite a snowfall. Oak Ridge, I had to go there a couple of times. I think I’ve forgotten—anyhow, the place we stayed at—these trips are all set up for us—the place I stayed at, they had a flood or I’ve forgotten what the deal was now, but I had to eat down in the basement. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That doesn’t sound like too much fun. My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Alford: Would you repeat that? Franklin: Sure. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Alford: Well, our main—I may have mentioned, I think—my main goal was to beat Germany to the bomb. Well, I can’t answer your problem directly, I don’t think. The fact that we could build buildings and we could do things—if you have a real goal in mind, a lot of times, the politics have to come separate. That’s kind of the way it was when I worked out there. We could do—even on reactors, it took us ten or fifteen years just to get the paperwork and the licensing and things like that. The Frenchmen could do all that in five years, and we knew that. But still—if we could get rid of the paperwork, it saves money and gets the job done much quicker. Franklin: Okay. Well, Doug, is there anything else that you’d like to say before we close the interview? Anything else you haven’t mentioned or I haven’t asked? Alford: No, I think you’ve done pretty good job. Franklin: Okay. Alford: Sparking my memory, but I just—I’ve kind of lost a lot of my memory now. I’m getting on in years. Franklin: No, thank you so much for interviewing with us. You’ve had a really remarkable career, and I appreciate you taking the time to share that with us today. Alford: Thank you very much. I’ve enjoyed it. Franklin: Good. Okay. Yeah. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100 Areas 200 East PUREX B Plant Plutonium Finishing Plant 234-5 Building Tank Farms 200 West Basalt Waste Isolation Project (BWIP) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1982 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Douglas Alford Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Ellensburg (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Chemistry Nuclear reactors Reactor fuel processing Description An account of the resource Douglas Alford moved to Richland, Washington in 1951 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1982. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/22/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8938a4900744d564518bc93d898f6b2d.jpg 551b6009d403d2bd6e8f2a60ec34167a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Anderson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: We are rolling. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with James Anderson on March 14, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Anderson: James Daniel Anderson. J-A-M-E-S, D-A-N-I-E-L, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. Franklin: Great, thank you, Jim. And so tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site? Anderson: Okay. I was born in Denver. And when I was in my fourth year, my dad worked for DuPont, which was Remington Arms back there, and they transferred him out here to this new secret project. Franklin: What year would this have been? Anderson: That would’ve been ’44, early ’44. Franklin: Okay, so you were born in 1940? Anderson: I was born in ’39, actually. I turned five after we got here. Franklin: Okay, sure, sure. Anderson: So. And my dad was a machinist. He came to Hanford making the first fuels that went to B Reactor. I remember this story, he’s told it many a time, but he hated machining uranium, because it was hard in spots and it was soft in spots. So you could gouge deeply or you might not cut enough. So the filings would go on the floor. Back then, they didn’t have protective clothing then. It was just, do the work. He and another guy that worked there got some uranium filings stuck in the soles of their shoes. So they went to the movies one night. On the way to the movies, they were looking at their feet and they were sparking. That was from the uranium filings that was embedded in their shoes. Uranium is somewhat pyrophoric. So they learned early on about that. Franklin: Sorry, pyrophoric, what is that exactly? Anderson: It’s burnable, basically. And it can sometimes catch fire on its own. Franklin: Oh, wow. I guess that’s what makes it such a good fuel. Anderson: Well, when I was in grade school, I knew I wanted to be a chemist. So we used to make pyrophoric materials: firecrackers, bombs, rockets, and things like that. So I’m somewhat familiar with that. Down at the Richland Library, you could get books on it. They had them there. They’d give you the formulas and everything. Being a kid, I used to go to the pharmacist and get my chemicals. When we’d go on vacation, like to Denver or Seattle or something, they had the chemical companies there, I’d go down and I’d get whatever I needed. Nobody asked me, questioned me or anything. I just did it. So we used to make gunpowder and stuff like that. I even made, from an Erector Set, a rocket that would go around in a circle. We had chemical fuses, so that we knew about how long it would take for it to self-ignite. And it didn’t go. So I went there and I put some more potassium permanganate on it, and it took off. The exhaust hit my shirt, and needless to say, I was on fire for a short period of time. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: That wasn’t so bad, but going home, Mom did not like that. So, I had a good lecture and so forth. [LAUGHTER] But—go ahead. Franklin: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you go ahead. Anderson: But I always enjoyed that. When I was a kid, Richland looked like a battlefield. There was no grass, only trees where there had been orchards. When the wind blew, I mean, they used to say, on a clear day, you can see the house across the street. That was pretty much true. And that stuff was so fine, it would go in the windowsills and just settle. They also called them termination winds. Because a lot of ladies came to meet their husbands that had been working here, and after one of those storms, they’d say, honey, I’m leaving. If you want to stay married, you’re coming with me. So that happened. But we lived at the hotel down here in Richland until our house was ready, and then we moved in. We were a few days later than our neighbors; we were in a B house. So in 1957 or thereabouts when they sold the town, they had first priority and of course they bought the house. So we had to move and find another house. So that was very interesting. My boyfriend and I would crawl under the porches and stuff, and we would find spiders galore, especially the ones with the red hourglass. So we used to play with those, you know. And of course our parents always told us, no. But one of those black widows, when we were playing across the street from where I lived, it was still wild out there; there wasn’t grass or anything, and one of them crawled up my leg. I felt it, and I thought, uh-oh, I’m in trouble. So I thought, well, if I jump up and down as hard as I can, it’ll fall out. And it did. And I never played with them after that. But it was funny, my mother would get a stick that looked like, as a kid, about ten-foot long, and she’d get the spider on the end of it, and she’d walk across the street where she was going to kill it. As she was walking, the spider would crawl on the stick towards her. The closer it got, the faster she went. [LAUGHTER] And then when she got there, the spider was no more. But it was fun for kids in those days. And in fact, the streets were none. They were just dirt. G-W was dirt. So it was kind of interesting, you know. And in summer when it was real hot and real dry, that stuff was very powdery. I can remember walking to the grocery store and coming back, and in the inside of my pant legs were covered with that dust. So it was fun. I enjoyed that. We used to go down by Fred Meyer and that was a swamp back then. I don’t know if you guys knew that or not, but they got a pump house down there, too, and they used to—but there were frogs galore, polliwogs, cattails, you name it. It was a good place for boys to play, and we did. And I can remember, we’d take these home, and they’d change into frogs, obviously. And then we’d let them loose, and a lot of them would bury themselves in the flower gardens. I can remember my dad in the spring hoeing around the bushes and so forth, and every so often, out would come a frog. [LAUGHTER] But that was fun, just to go down there and play and stuff. Most people didn’t even lock their doors. I mean, everybody had Q clearances. I don’t know if they were called Q clearances when I was a kid. I remember this place was so hush-hush, I never knew what my dad did. Even after they announced the bomb had been dropped. I can remember, he never said anything about his job or what he did. And when I, years later, when I went to work at Hanford, I got to go visit him where he worked. So I got to learn what he did. He was in the water plant. Franklin: Was he still working at Hanford when you started at Hanford? Anderson: Oh, yeah. He retired from N Reactor. Franklin: Okay. When your father started, you said early on he started as a fuels fabrication for B Reactor, and what area was he working out of then? Anderson: That was 300 Area. Franklin: Okay, and how long did he do that for? Anderson: Oh, not very long. He hated it, and so he transferred out to B Reactor. He was out at B Reactor when they had their startup problems. And then he was there when they solved the problem and away they went. DuPont always over-designed, as far as I know, their work that they did. Of course, they were told so many tubes for the reactor, and they made about twice as many. So when they—I think it was Enrico Fermi went into the room—with the slide rule, you know, we didn’t have computers—and he determined what it was, and he came up with the term “barns.” So he discovered what it was and then they filled all the rest of the tubes up and away they went. That was an exciting time. Dad remembers when that happened. Franklin: And what did he do at B Reactor? Anderson: He was in the water plant. They would pump the water out of the river, clean it up, and pass it through the reactor. From there, it would go into cooling or whatever and then eventually it would go back into the river. I can remember—now this is aside from that, but the Columbia River flows over some uranium fields. I don’t know if you knew that. I think they’re up in Canada. But because of all the reactors on the river, and they cleaned it up to run it through, there was more uranium in the water coming into the Site than there was leaving the Site. Franklin: Hmm. Anderson: And the place he worked, I’ll tell you, it was hot. It was steam as well as the water purification. He always loved a hot house. And of course, none of the rest of us in the family really enjoyed that. [LAUGHTER] But when it got down to 90 or 80, that was starting to get cold. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Yeah, he was— Franklin: I guess he must’ve liked summers in Richland without air conditioning. Anderson: Well, in fact, when we came we had no air conditioning. Eventually we got swamp coolers. You could leave the front door open and cool the house down. Humidity back then was something like 5%. Of course, as they put in the crops and stuff up the valley, then the humidity went up and they weren’t quite as efficient anymore. But I can remember when we put our first one in. Oh, that felt so good. Franklin: Yeah, makes a big difference, just water evaporation makes a big difference. So you—what type of Alphabet house did your family move into? Anderson: We moved into a B house. Franklin: Okay. That’s the two-story or a one-story? Anderson: It’s a one-story duplex. And back then, in the basement, they had a little room, if you will, for coal. So the company would supply you with the coal. Whenever you wanted it, you’d call them up and say, I want some coal, and they’d bring it to you. And then you’d have to stoke the furnace and so forth. Later on a lot of them put in an automatic feed into the furnace. Once in a while, those would catch fire. Sometimes that coal would make a gas in there and it would blow up. The door, of course, would swing open when it would. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It sounds really dangerous. Anderson: It sounds it, but it wasn’t that bad. But a lot of people got rid of coal when they sold the homes and stuff. And then they did whatever they wanted, electrical baseboards and so forth. Franklin: What was your overall impression of the Alphabet houses? Anderson: Well, they are all basically look-alikes. I mean, you may have an A and a B and stuff close together, or a C or whatever. But when you get down to it, one section of the block could be the same as the other side of the block. This is stories I’ve heard, a lot of the men—especially the men—would come home from having a party down at the tavern or whatever, and since most people didn’t lock the doors, they would just go inside, because they knew each house was the same. They’d go and start to get ready for bed, and of course when they discovered that the wife was not his—[LAUGHTER] they immediately left. So. Franklin: What about the quality of construction or how it was like to live in an Alphabet house? What were your impressions on that? Anderson: Actually, the construction for the Alphabet houses was pretty high, I think. They used good wood. Now, they didn’t put a lot of insulation in a lot of houses. And so a lot of people had to come back and add insulation. I have a Q house now. It just had a foil strip between the sheetrock and the wall and that was the insulation. Supposedly, it would reflect it. So when I bought the house, I had to add insulation to it. Franklin: It says here that DuPont grouped workers together from different sites they were transferred from, so that your father or mother knew a lot of their neighbors when they moved to Richland. Anderson: Yes, in fact, I lived on the south end of town, and everybody around where I lived was from Denver. Franklin: Oh. Anderson: And so they did that because it made it kind of feel like home. Franklin: Sure, just some semblance of familiarity or, you know. Anderson: Yes. What was across from the Uptown district, there were a lot of people there from Salt Lake, because that was another DuPont site. They used to call that Little Salt Lake. [LAUGHTER] My dad had a friend that he worked with back in Colorado, and he worked up here as well. He came up here. And those two were friends, best friends, for 77 years. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So my dad died first, and so he was—my dad died at 92 and his buddy died a couple years later. Franklin: Why do you think your family decided to stay after World War II? Anderson: Well, actually, the benefits, you know. Your homes, to begin with, were free. And if you wanted your house painted or whatever, you could do that. So there was a lot of benefits to stay. You didn’t have to pay rent and stuff like that. So it was nice. Once you made friends, and of course, where we lived, it was from Colorado area, then a lot of people didn’t want to stay. There were some that left. I’ll be honest. They wanted to go back where their relatives were or whatever. I’d say at least half of them came back. [LAUGHTER] They thought this was a better place. Franklin: Was your family from Colorado originally? Anderson: Yes. My dad was born in Colorado and so was my mother. Franklin: So growing up, you went to all of the Richland area schools, right? Lewis and Clark, Carmichael and then Columbia High, right? Anderson: Yes. In fact—just a second—there was—you know, we’d go to school, and we’d see somebody new, it was always, where are you from? There was something like a handful of kids that were from this area. By the time I graduated from high school, we had over 1,000 there. I’d guess just about half—I mean, not half—about a handful or so in number were actually born here. I belong to the Rambling Rovers right now which is an old-timers group. The school that’s still out at Hanford—I mean, it’s just a shell, but—eventually, the town got so big and stuff, they used it for a grade school rather than the high school. So, yeah, it was fun. The only problem is they opened Chief Jo up the same time as we had Carmichael. We used to play each other in basketball. They had the all-stars, if you will, in their school. When we’d play them, we’d lose by tons of points. When we got to the high school, on the starting basketball team, four were from Chief Jo; one from Carmichael. Originally, when they built Carmichael, they were originally planning on putting a pool underneath the basketball court. That never materialized. Franklin: What do you remember about civil defense in school? Anderson: Yes. We did have some civil defense activities. The main thing I really remember was all around town were these sirens. They always tested at the same time each month. I don’t remember exactly, but it seemed to me it was like the last day of the month. Franklin: And these were evacuation sirens, or air raid? Anderson: Either. They would wail or they could go straight. And those were loud. I mean, loud. In back of Fred Meyer, up on the hill there, was the one that was closest to our house. But then they took all of them down, and it was normal, I guess you’d say, again. Franklin: Do you remember doing duck-and-cover? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: And can you describe that? Like, what would happen in the classroom and what was that to protect against? Anderson: Well, I can remember—you’d crawl underneath a desk, so that falling debris and stuff would not have as great a chance to hurt you. The biggest thing I hated in grade school was kindergarten. They had mats, and you had to take a rest period during kindergarten. You know, I gave up naps like when I was two or so. And you go back to school and they wanted you to lay on the gym floor on those mats. That was horrible. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That was worse than the duck-and-cover? Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So you eventually graduated high school, yeah? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: As a Columbia High Bomber. Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And you went to WSU. Anderson: Yes, I did. Franklin: And what did you go for? Anderson: Well, when I went to Wazzu, I knew, as I said earlier, that I wanted to be a chemist. So I went up there and I took the chemistry courses. For a couple years, I took nuclear chemistry and radio chemistry. There were some funny stories on that, like my first year up there—and I hadn’t worked at Hanford yet and didn’t know what hot meant. Hot meant radioactive out here. So somebody went to get a piece of glassware, and they said, don’t touch it, it’s hot. He thought it was radioactive, and he just dropped it on the floor. [LAUGHTER] So that did happen. That was funny. We even had a couple—well, we had a reactor up there. I don’t know if you knew that or not. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: But we, for instance, took gold foil and irradiated it as one of our projects and we’d have to go back and determine its half life and so on. We did that to calibrate our instruments, things like that. And then our senior year, we had radiochemistry, which is more like theoretical physics or something like that. Our instructor—I always got a kick out of him—he’d give us an exam. He’d have about ten questions on it, and we’d have an hour to do it in, you know. Pretty soon he’d say, how many are halfway through the exam? No hands. Eventually he’d get down to, how many got one done? And he’d get no hands. And he’d say, well, okay, let’s make this a take-home test. And you’d take it home, and you spent the whole weekend doing it. I mean—[LAUGHTER] And then we had to—in the one where we would have all the instrumentation and so forth and did all of our experiments, we had to do longhand procedures. That would be like 10, 15, 20 pages long. Every week, we had to do one. Sometimes we’d laugh and joke that, you know, the further they could throw them up a step, the better the grade. But most of them were really more interested in why you didn’t get the correct result. So your error portion of the write-up was very important and critical. But I enjoyed chemistry up there. And of course, after school, there were a lot of things you could do with chemistry. Franklin: Such as? Anderson: Oh, this was a guy down the hall. He and I were in the same class, but he made some ammonium triiodide, and he painted it on the rubber tips of the seats in the toilet. And they would dry, and then somebody like at 2:00 in the morning would have to go in there and sit, and it’d blow up. And sometimes he’d squirt it in the key locks. You’d put your key in there, and the friction would set it off. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] It wasn’t like a large explosion, right? Anderson: No. Franklin: Just kind of like a little—but enough, probably to startle somebody. Anderson: Oh, especially in the morning, when you’re still asleep. Franklin: Oh, wow. Anderson: But yeah. And I tried to make some rockets there, and I set one off in the room. The ceiling was all speckled. Franklin: Oh, wow. You must’ve liked to have a lot of fun, huh? Anderson: Oh, it was fun, yeah. I enjoyed it up there. Franklin: And so when did you graduate? Anderson: Graduated in ’62. Franklin: ’62, okay, and then you started at Hanford Labs. Anderson: Right. Actually, I went up to the Seattle World’s Fair up there. Then I came back and went to work. So it was in June of ’62 that I started down here. I was in the tech grad program, which started out at the 300 Area for me. You were interviewed, and depending upon what your choice was would depend on where you started work. But I started work in 300 Area. The PRTR Reactor was there. I worked in the water lab. I also worked out at the 100-K Area, and they had a water lab out there. So I had to substitute for the guy that was responsible for those when he’d go on vacation or whatever. So I’d spend half a day at PRTR and the other half of the day at K. I’d pick up the car down at the Federal Building and check it out, and I’d have it all day for my activities. Franklin: And what was—what did PRTR stand for? Anderson: Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. The one big thing I remember about that, it was—it used heavy water for the moderator and so forth. But there were jugs—and I mean jugs—of heavy water lining the hallways throughout that whole reactor building. I mean. And that stuff is very expensive. Franklin: What was the job of that reactor? What did it do? Anderson: It was supposed to determine how you can recycle plutonium in a reactor. Rather than enriching uranium, or some other technique. So it was real nice that way, but they did—I can’t remember exactly what the mistake was in there, but they got it all contaminated. [LAUGHTER] So it didn’t last much longer. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: They came out with the FFTF and stuff like that, and a lot of people—I had a father-in-law back then that was a heating and ventilating engineer, and he—DOE kept chiding Battelle down there to get going and get that reactor going. They had to send out the prints and stuff like that to the commercial reactor manufacturers and get their input so that we could demonstrate something that they were interested in. Oftentimes, he said, the requests were 180 degrees apart. [LAUGHTER] So it really slowed them down to do that. They finally gave it to Westinghouse, who finished it. Franklin: So you said you worked at PRTR and then in the water lab. Anderson: Yeah, they had a water lab in PRTR. They’d take samples of the reactor effluence and stuff like that. Franklin: And do what with it? Anderson: Analyze it to see if there’s radiation in it, if there’s any cross-contamination, or if there’s impurities in it. Because sometimes impurities can corrode or whatever. So you want to make sure those are taken care of. Franklin: And so how long did you work this kind of split-shift between PRTR and the water lab? Anderson: Well, I worked in the water lab at PRTR the whole time. Franklin: Oh, okay, sorry. Anderson: That’s okay. But, yeah, I did that—he went on vacation three times or so, so I probably had a month’s work there. Franklin: And what other jobs did you have out at Hanford? Anderson: Oh, I had a chance to work at B Reactor, as a matter of fact. I interviewed out there. The manager out there made it sound like utopia, you know? You’re going to do this, you’re going to write these reports, and your name’s going to be out there in blinking lights. He didn’t say that, but he made it sound grand and glorious. And I thought—I just had a gut feeling, don’t go to work there. Smart move, because they shut it down. But so I went to 234-5 Building, which is the plutonium building. I had three main jobs there. The first one was in the Process Laboratory. There, I got to handle plutonium. That’s quite a thrill. Then we did a lot of analysis for operations so that they could control the process and so forth. Then, I was asked up to do the carbon machine. I tore it apart, and I was getting ready to put it back together and make some modifications. The shift manager at Dash-5, he ended up with diabetes. And so they had to remove him from the shift for a period of time while he got that under control. So they sent me down there to take his place. Well, I never had worked with union before. Now, I don’t know if you guys have or not, but I had to make a transfer from a tank to one of the cribs outside. So I couldn’t find the operator, so I did it. Well, I got my grievance, and I lost that one, obviously. I’ve had a couple other grievances, too, and I won those. [LAUGHTER] But that was interesting, to do that. So I was working shift work doing that. We had to make the buttons, the plutonium buttons. We’d get the plutonium feed material from either PUREX or REDOX. And then we’d run it through the plant. We had a screw system there and you could backflow the gasses over and stuff like that to come up with your product. We ended up with plutonium fluoride. And then we’d have a crucible that we’d put that stuff in, and we’d add a little iodine and calcium and heat it up and then the reaction would take place. The plutonium would go to the bottom into a little, I guess you’d call it, kind of like a little cup in the bottom, so it would all be in there. Now, this is something that I had never thought of until I was in the burial grounds, but those crucibles were made out of ceramic material. They were manufactured by Coors. Coors beer. They were, and I guess they still are, one of the top qualified manufacturers of that material. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: So that stuff back then was a classified secret and so forth. So we had a lot of waste from Coors in Colorado, which is non-rad, go to the burial grounds because it was classified. So if a lot of people think, you know, everything out there is rad, well, that’s not so. But, yeah, we did a lot with that. And then from there, I went down to the Research Laboratory. I had to make plutonium chloride material for Rocky Flats. I have no idea what they did with it. It was one of those things, you know, here it is, we give it to them, and we don’t talk about it. Franklin: Don’t ask too many questions? Anderson: Right. But we used phosgene gas, and we used these in cylinders. You’d heat it up and you’d pass the gas through it, and it would change the oxide to the chloride. Now, phosgene gas is very poisonous. And that used to be one of those trench gases they had during, what was it, the First World War and stuff like that. And it’s supposed to smell, and it does smell like freshly mown hay. You don’t want to breathe it, that’s for sure. But every so often, a whiff would come by. I did have a couple slight smells of it. Franklin: Did it make you sick? Anderson: No. Franklin: Oh. Anderson: It wasn’t that concentrated, I guess I’d say. Franklin: Was it a neural agent? Is that what it does? And how does plutonium chloride differ—is it like—it’s not a liquid—is it solid or powder? What kind of form is it? Anderson: It’s a powder. Franklin: It’s a powder, okay. Anderson: Chloride’s got more atoms in it—not atoms—neutrons and protons than fluoride does. So it’s a lot different from it. Now, the thing that I had a—I didn’t have a problem with it, but it was my first time in dealing with kg quantities of plutonium. We had holes in the hood so we could put these canisters in there. I had something like, what, 20kgs of plutonium in there. And I’m sitting there, thinking, you know, I hope those critical mass people know what they’re talking about. [LAUGHTER] Because, you know, you think, you’re okay, as long as you don’t do something. But if you drop it, what do you do? And that led to other questions, because eventually when I was in operations, I got to have all the combinations and stuff for the vaults that stored plutonium. You could only have two people go in a vault at once. That’s because we are contained of water—“we are contained of water”? Our body has a lot of water in it. So that’s a good moderator, so you don’t want too many people going around. And then of course the cans are the size of a tuna fish can and they had them on posts in there in the safe. Go ahead. Franklin: I’m sorry, I’m just curious about this water thing. What role would the water play around plutonium? Anderson: Neutrons. It moderates the neutrons. Franklin: Okay, so how would—wait, so, you could start a chain reaction then— Anderson: Yes. Franklin: --with water in the—oh, okay. Anderson: Yeah, and you didn’t want that. Franklin: No. You usually—well, you only want it when it’s intentional. Anderson: Yeah, like in a reactor or whatever. Now, one other thing that was interesting is they had a criticality shortly before I went over there at Dash-5. So we didn’t have a way to recycle plutonium. And so a lot of plutonium went into storage. Not just in the vaults, because we ran out of that. We had igloos on the other side of West Area. There were seven igloos there and we stored plutonium in there. Periodically, when I was on shift, taking that supervisor’s place, then we would go out there and we’d check it and see what’s going on. In one place, in one of the igloos—these were left over from the Army, by the way— Franklin: Yeah, I’m sorry, when you say igloo, what kind of structure are you referring to? Anderson: It’s basically a metal building that’s in an arch shape. It’s not square-shaped— Franklin: Oh, like a Quonset hut. Anderson: Yeah, like a Quonset hut. But it’s covered with dirt. Franklin: So kind of like either built into a side or—it kind of blends in—that’s so it’s insulated, right? Anderson: Well, yeah, but you know the military was out here for a long time and they kept ammo and stuff in there. So you wanted them to be pretty well-protected. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: And then the front of it, for instance, was made out of concrete. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And there’s a door in there and so on. We went to radiation monitoring to get some support. They were not accommodating, let’s put it that way. So I and two operators went out there, and we found that there was some liquid organic material that was packaged in there. Apparently, it had fizzed, and it had come up and eaten its way through the plastic barrier, and then it just kind of rolled onto the floor. Then it went all the way over into the gutter. That was pretty high in plutonium, let’s put it that way. The mice had gotten in there and tracked it all over. Franklin: Oooh. Anderson: And their droppings were hot. And I and another guy got contaminated in there. You had to wear two pairs of rubber gloves and then you had to wear a thick latex glove on top of that. And the moment you touched that organic, it would go right through. So you started peeling the gloves off. Franklin: Wow. You mean it would eat right through the glove? Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, two of us went back with a very minimal count on our hands, and radiation monitoring raised a fit on it. And I said, well, we asked you, but you wouldn’t take it. So from that time on, we had monitors out there. Franklin: What happened to the rats? Were their bodies found, or did they somehow maybe go further up in the food chain, or--? Anderson: No, we never found a rat or mouse. Franklin: Just the tracks and the droppings? Anderson: Mm-hmm, mainly the droppings. And I got an idea that stuff killed them. I mean, if it goes right through gloves… Franklin: Yeah. Wow. Anderson: So, in fact, years later, after I retired and I went back to work out there, I had somebody call me up, and we went out there to look where all those had been and stuff, because they’ve all been removed. There’s no igloos out there anymore. Franklin: And what—was there any trace of them, or any trace of the accident out there at that point? Anderson: No. It’d been decontaminated. Franklin: And where exactly was this? Anderson: It’s west of West Area. There’s an Army Loop Road that goes in back of West Area. And it was on the other side of the Army Loop Road and there was a fence around it. Franklin: Is that right up against the mountain then? Or--? Anderson: No, it’s flat out there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: When you go on the highway, the public highway, and you go out there and you can see some of the buildings and stuff. If you look close, you’ll see where there had been some—I don’t want to say buildings, but some foxholes or something like that that the military had done. It was just in back of that, is where it was. Franklin: Interesting. And so, after the research lab in 234-5-Z, where did you go from there? Anderson: I went to PUREX. First job I had at PUREX was in operations. There was the main supervisor and then he had two that supported him. I hired in over there as one of those. The building was divided into the west side and the east side for the two. I had the head end which was where the fuel dissolution occurred, where we had the uranium facilities outside, the liquid uranium, because we didn’t make solids back then. And then we also had the stack and so forth out back. So all that was something I had to get familiar with. Franklin: I’m sorry, what was the stack? Anderson: Oh, it’s a 200-foot chimney, I guess you’d call it, and that way whenever you dissolved or whatever and you had off-gassing and so forth, it’d go out that 200-foot stack. And that gas would go through a glass filter. That way, you didn’t have radiation going through except the radiation that was in a gaseous form, because nothing will stop that, pretty much. And iodine was one that would go out that way. Now, speaking of stacks, when they built B and T Plant, they did not have filters on them. The stack was 200—all those stacks are about 200 feet tall. So when they dissolved on the old buildings, because they didn’t have filters and stuff, they had to do it when the wind was proper. And then, after a while, of course, the machinery and stuff in the plant would corrode a little bit, so you could get dust particles and whatever coming out of the stack. And there were times when—I wasn’t working out there, then, but I was told that they had to put on booties when the bus was out there to walk into the building, and then they took them off. Because the particulates out there were bad. PUREX had some of that, to a certain extent, because their first step going up into the building was about even with the asphalt. So you know something had been covered. Franklin: Were B and T retrofitted with the filters after? Anderson: Yes, only theirs were sand filters. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did the glass filter—I imagine it wasn’t a sheet of glass. Anderson: Oh, no, it was kind of like insulation in your house, only it was beaucoup thick. I don’t remember how thick it was, but sometimes chemicals would hang up on it, because they’d be in particulate form. And because PUREX was a nitrate facility—well, all of them were nitrate facilities, because the bulk of the materials would be soluble in the nitrate form. So it would catch, like, sodium nitrate or something like that. Our filters over there, when I was working over there, started to plug, so we had to add another bay for filtration. You still let it go over the old one, because you wanted to use it up as much as you can, and then go up into the new one. Franklin: How would those be cleaned, or would they? Anderson: They weren’t. Franklin: Oh, okay. What would they do, just collapse the stack and—like break the stack down? Anderson: Oh, no, we just added on to the filter system. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: At PUREX, that’s all we did. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: And at B and T, that was the sand filter. So they added some HEPA filters to them later on. Franklin: Hmm. And so what—how long did you work as an operation supervisor at PUREX? Anderson: Oh, probably a year or so. The laboratory manager came down and asked for me to go to work in the laboratory. We talked about it and so forth, and he said there was a pay raise in it. So, you know. I went down there and I went on D shift as a shift supervisor in the laboratory. Franklin: In which—at PUREX? Anderson: The PUREX Process Laboratory. So there I had about ten people working for me in the laboratory. And operations would take their samples, and we had a dumbwaiter that went down to the sample floor, and they’d stick the samples on there and bring it up to the lab, and then we’d analyze it. Franklin: And what would you be analyzing for? Anderson: Well, for instance, in the feed, we would be analyzing for the uranium, plutonium and neptunium, because those were the products. You want to know, if you start out with, say, one pound of plutonium, that you end up with a pound at the end. You don’t want it to go out to the Tank Farms or whatever. So that’s one of the things. The other thing is you strip the fission products away from it and so forth so you’re cleaning it up as it goes through the plant. So that was very important. And if they had plant problems or something like that, we might get special samples. And I can remember one sample that went out to one of the cribs for the off-gas system. Apparently it bubbled over or something, because it was pretty yellow when we got it, plus it was pretty hot, in terms of radiation. So, you know, you have to tell them what’s going on and then they’ll take care of it. We eventually—well, I had three jobs there, actually. I did that and then I went to day shift as a day shift supervisor, because when our manager left, our day shift supervisor was bumped up to manager, so I took his job. And then later on, the research chemist that was there, he left and got another job offsite. So I took his job. [LAUGHTER] I did that—I worked in that lab—oh, well, counting the tech grad program and so forth, I probably worked in that lab six years to eight years, somewhere in that timeframe. Franklin: At the PUREX lab. Anderson: PUREX Process, yeah. And eventually, you know, while I was working there, waste management was the buzz word. That was the new thing. So B Plant became the center point for that. So we started getting set up to also analyze B Plant samples. They’d have to bring them to us. Franklin: Sorry, when you say waste management was the new buzz word, you mean, like, there was a new recognition of the waste products being generated at Hanford, or— Anderson: Yes. Franklin: How did that change from what had been happening before? What was this new focus and where did it come from? Anderson: Well, I don’t know where all of it came from, but the main reason was to keep track of that and to try to separate some of the higher beta gamma emitters which could assist you in high level waste determinations and things like that. Now, high level waste is a unique word. And transuranic is a unique word. Transuranic basically means if it’s greater than uranium in the periodic chart, it’s transuranic. So that waste—eventually, not at the beginning—went down to New Mexico and to their caverns. Franklin: Into Carlsbad. Anderson: And then the high level waste means that it’s the first cycle waste from processing fuels. So the bulk of the beta gamma products are in there. Franklin: And early on, that had not been—before the PUREX process and REDOX were—some of that waste had just been processed a bit but then dumped, right? Anderson: Well, it was separated from the transuranics and then it was neutralized and put out in the Tank Farms. Franklin: Right, but it was still high level waste in the Tank Farms? Anderson: Not necessarily. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: [LAUGHTER] See, it has to be from the first cycle waste. You run the fuels through, and on the first cycle waste, you separate the high level waste from the transuranics and uranics, as far as that goes. So anything separated after that is not high level waste. Now, for instance, and this may sound funny, at FFTF, they had some reactor trees that were in the reactor and they got contaminated—activated from the neutrons. Heating steel and stuff like that, it’ll absorb it, and you get cobalt-60 and all sorts of stuff. Well, that stuff, you know, could read—and I’m making this number up—say, 100,000 rad, okay? That’s low level waste. The intensity has nothing to do with what it is. Franklin: That was going to be my next question. So high level waste, you said, is the product after the first pass. Anderson: Right. Franklin: So even if you strip out the uranics and transuranics, that waste could still be hot, but it would not be high level waste. Anderson: Exactly. Franklin: Okay, so that’s a term that refers to the product of a specific state in time, not the level of contamination or radiation level of the actual item. Anderson: Same thing with the spent fuel, you know. Spent fuel, you think of it being in the reactor for a period of time so that it burns up the uranium-235 or whatever. In this case, it doesn’t really matter, as far as how long it’s been irradiated. If you put it in the reactor for five minutes, it’s been irradiated. Franklin: So, it’s spent fuel in that sense. Anderson: Yeah, and it might be cold enough to touch, but that doesn’t get rid of it as spent fuel. See, some of these definitions are, I guess you’d say they’re politically driven. Franklin: Yeah, as someone who comes from a history background and not a nuclear chemistry background, the use of the term “high level waste” brings out something else—doesn’t seem to be the best descriptor for this specific—you know, if you were to say, maybe, first pass waste. Because “high level” makes you think that it’s important waste, not necessarily that it’s just the waste from the first run through the— Anderson: Well, it is important, because in the spent fuel, you know, when you separate that out, you’re going to have mixed fission products that are hotsie-totsie. Franklin: Is that a technical term? Anderson: No, that’s [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sorry. Anderson: That’s a good question. Franklin: Couldn’t resist. Anderson: But no. For instance, at B Plant, they would recover the cesium and the strontium. And they would send us over some cesium in, say, a 100-pound pig for shielding. Well, you’d have a half-an-mL of cesium in there, which is a strong gamma. So in order for us to play with that—I shouldn’t use the term “play”—but to do the analytic analysis and so forth. We’d have to get a pipe that was, say, ten feet long, and put it through the handle so that the two people that were carrying that 100-pound pig around were minimizing their exposure. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Because even through that 100-pound pig, it was pretty hot. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, yeah. Now, strontium’s not quite so bad, because it’s a beta emitter. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: But there’s still both heat. And of course they added the facilities over at B Plant to encapsulate those materials. If you went over, they’d look almost like standard fuel elements or something, and they glowed blue. Franklin: Was it that—what’s that type of radiation? Anderson: Cherenkov. Franklin: Cherenkov radiation. Anderson: Right. Franklin: Sorry, when you’re saying B Plant, you mean B Reactor. Anderson: No. B Plant. Franklin: B Plant, okay, and what is B Plant? Anderson: B Plant was the first—T Plant was the first separation facility to separate plutonium from spent fuels. It was a precipitation process. Franklin: That’s with the cribs and the pools, right, with the constant chemical refining—or separation of the plutonium. Anderson: Right. They precipitated it and then went on with it. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And recovered it. So, yeah, that was very important. Franklin: And how does B Plant differ? Anderson: It’s almost the same as T Plant. T Plant was the first one built, so they made it a little bit different so they could do more research or studies or whatever with it than B. Franklin: But it was still one of those long canyon buildings. Anderson: Oh, yeah. They’re roughly, what, three football fields long or something like that. I mean, they’re huge. Franklin: Where was that located? Anderson: B Plant was probably a mile away from PUREX. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And T Plant was probably a mile away, more or less, from Dash-5, the plutonium building. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I wouldn’t be 100%. Franklin: Sure, I understand. Anderson: A mile, I mean. Franklin: So we talked a bit about high level waste and that kind of specific definition, and you’d started to talk about spent fuels and, I think, maybe the problem with that terminology, or how that terminology could cause issues or something. I wonder if we could go back to that. Anderson: Okay. Issues how? Franklin: Well, I don’t know, you started to mention that spent fuel referred to a specific process. Anderson: Oh, yeah. It’s just like “high level waste” or whatever else. If it was in a reactor for a short period of time—maybe it’s touchable, you know, whatever—but it’s still “spent fuel.” So you’ve got to treat it like spent fuel, and it has to go to a geologic repository and all that stuff. Franklin: Oh, okay, I see, I see. So it’s a very large, all-encompassing definition that doesn’t necessarily tell you how long it was in the reactor and how much of the uranium has been processed and things like that. Anderson: Right, because if you leave it in the reactor for a shorter period of time, versus longer, you’d come out with fuels-grade plutonium. If you leave it in longer than that, you end up with reactor-grade plutonium. One is more amenable to nuclear devices. Franklin: Which one is that? Anderson: The—what’d I call it? Franklin: You said there was fuel and reactor grade. Anderson: Yeah, fuel grade. Franklin: Fuel grade. Anderson: Not fuel grade, it’s—well, yeah, I guess that works, fuel grade. But it’s not reactor grade. I mean, it’s one that you can use in bombs. [LAUGHTER] Weapons grade, that’s what it is, weapons grade. Franklin: So there’s weapons grade and reactor grade. Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. When did you start work on the thorium campaign? Anderson: Oh, we had two of them here. One of them was a short period just to demonstrate that we could do it. And then the next one was to demonstrate that we could meet the requirements that were set upon us. Franklin: And that was for the Navy, right? For the Navy reactors? Anderson: For Rick Rickover. Franklin: Yeah, Admiral Rickover. Anderson: And I’ll say this, whenever he spoke, you jumped. Franklin: Why? Anderson: I mean, he had the power. When he said something, you did it. There was no ifs, ands or buts. Now, the thorium campaign—and actually if we had thorium reactors, that might be another topic. We never had those out there. Well, I guess we did, because we did irradiate some. But Rickover wanted some uranium-233, so that’s what we made. Because thorium, when you irradiate it, will go up to uranium-233, which is also fissile. You can make bombs. It’s weapons grade, or again, if you overdo it, it could be non-weapons grade. But we had to recalibrate the laboratory in order to handle that material. You used the same chemicals, basically, but you have to use them in a different way, and we had to analyze it a different way. I became, since I was the research chemist there—we had to have large samples of the product so we could analyze for all the impurities and so forth that they wanted. Consequently, we had a cabinet that we had in the building—in the laboratory, that could handle kg quantities of uranium-233. I had some critical mass bottles, which is product bottles that they used down in operations. When we accumulated enough 233, I would fill one of those jugs. I put a little plastic mixer in the bottom and put it on a magnetic plate, and then we’d mix it up and so forth after we put it together. And then I had to take enough sample out of there, because it was product—just like we did down below—and analyze that and make sure it met all the requirements. Franklin: What is the advantage for using thorium instead of uranium or plutonium for the reactor? Why the push for thorium? Anderson: Well, Rickover wanted it. He wanted it for the Navy. Franklin: And why? What’s the advantage to using thorium? Anderson: Well, you have impurity of uranium-232 in there. You could make fuels for submarine reactors or whatever. If you did that, you had to have pretty clean separated materials, because that 232 is a very hard gamma. It would go from gamma to gamma to gamma. So you would have more than enough coming from it. So if you kept it long enough, you’d have something that could probably be lethal. So it was kind of its own self-control. Franklin: In what way? Anderson: It’d be lethal. Franklin: The product would? Or the— Anderson: The product would, because the uranium-232 is decaying into these hot daughters. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. How is thorium made? Anderson: Thorium is in the earth. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So it’s a natural element. And then when you throw a neutron into it, it makes—thorium-232 and you add a neutron becomes thorium-233, and when it decays to uranium-233. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Anderson: So it’s kind of like uranium-238, getting a neutron and making Pu-239. Franklin: Okay. And how long did you work on these thorium campaigns? Anderson: Oh, they were very short. I think it was probably around six months long, something like that. The demo was just a short period of time. I don’t know, weeks, maybe, at the most. But the other one was a lot longer. Franklin: And then you mentioned right around this time that waste management started to become kind of a hot issue. Maybe hot’s not the best word to use, but it started gaining a lot of attention. So you moved to waste management, right, from PUREX. Anderson: Yes, I transferred. Also, I went to an engineering group because they made more money—back then, they made more money than a chemist. But yes. And there, boy, I’ll tell you, I was at B Plant, which was the operations facility. I wrote monthly reports, management reports, I wrote two of those every month. I mean, one of each. And then I wrote quarterly reports for burial grounds, gas emissions, and liquid discharges. Then I also wrote the Tank Farm reports. And so, I had to be involved with a lot of that. And the funny thing is, my boss called me into his office after I’d done that for a few years. He says, guess what? I got a proposition for you. I says, oh, what’s that? He says, well, it’s one you ought to say yes to. And so, he said, engineering wants your job, and wants you to go along with it. So, I transferred from operations to engineering. That’s how I got involved in the engineering aspect. Franklin: Of waste management. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: So how long did you work as a waste management engineer? Anderson: Oh, from 1971, about, until 2012, I guess. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite a long time. What were some of the—can you describe kind of your work as a waste management engineer? What did you do out there and what significant accomplishments or setbacks did you have? Anderson: Well, we had, for instance, with the double-shell tanks, one of the A Farm tanks—not, let’s see, AX. AY. 102-AY, I think it was. I could be off on that, but—we had to analyze the material that went in there and keep it below a certain concentration of sodium and so on to keep it in a good, safe condition. And then the other tanks, we had to keep track of the material that went in there. For instance, we had one tank that tended to get a lot of the first cycle waste, and we had to make sure that the fissile material in there was according to par. So we had requirements and so forth. When we went out to the liquid discharges to the ground, for instance, you had to make those as low as you could. I remember, DOE asked me to tell them what the—after they ran it through a process and cleaned up the discharge quite a bit. They asked me to tell them what it was going to be like in 20 years. I said, well, here’s what we put in and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you’re not going to see much change out in the crib, because it’s already so contaminated. So they came back and said, well, forget the old stuff; just do the new stuff. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we did. But sometimes the operation would have a problem with it and it would discharge some radioactive materials into the environment. Franklin: From the tank to the— Anderson: No, from the building. Franklin: Oh, from the building to the environment. So not from the building to the tank, but— Anderson: Now, over at one of the ponds, they put up scarecrows to keep the ducks and stuff out. They got used to that, so then they started with a shotgun effect. It was an air gun or something. That worked for a while, but then they got used to that. So finally they had to put a net over it. So, yeah, Mother Nature’ll get used to most anything. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: So, that was a problem. Franklin: What about the emissions from the Tank Farms? I wonder if you could talk about that. Anderson: We never really noticed a lot of emissions from the Tank Farms when I was working in it. I remember a lot of the tanks did not have filters on them. In the middle of winter, because they’re liquid tanks, you’re going to have high humidity coming out the breather, so there was what looked like steam coming out. Somebody in DOE saw that. So we had to hook everything up to an exhaust system. But we never really had much of a problem unless liquid burped out of a tank or whatever. Franklin: Did that happen? Anderson: Yes, it did, in some of those farms, and it was pretty hot. In fact, one of them was so hot that, rightly so, the manager over that covered it with some soil so it wouldn’t get airborne and so forth after it was on the ground. So, I remember they called me up, and I had to go out to the building and we put in a concrete burial box into the trench. We had to have it such that they could scoop up that material and go over and dump it into the concrete box, so we could tell the public that it had been contained. But I remember going to work at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I worked until noon or something like that. My boss said, how long have you been out here? And I told him, and he says, well, go home. [LAUGHTER] But that happened every so often. Not a lot, but. And there’s some stories I put in my Tank Farm—not my Tank Farm; my burial ground report. They used to transfer sometimes over ground, and they still do. Franklin: What do you mean transfer? Oh, transfer waste. Anderson: Waste, overground instead of underground. On REDOX, it’s a half a mile away from the S Farm complex, so they could read it over there, which is quite a distance away. So they had to rush over there and pump cold water through it and get the readings down. Franklin: Pump cold water through--? Anderson: Through the transfer line. Franklin: Oh, okay. Half mile transfer line seems— Anderson: No, that wasn’t the transfer line. The Tank Farm is over here, and REDOX is over here. They can read it over at REDOX. Franklin: Oh, they can read—okay, I see, I see. Anderson: Yeah. Now, what we did, when I was in engineering there, is we would calculate the volume of liquid that would be in a pipe when you’re transferring. You could transfer from East Area to West Area, which is a few miles. But you had to calculate how much was going to be in the lines. So when you transferred, you would look at the drop in the tank, and you’d look at the rise in the other tank, and there’s going to be a delay because of what’s being held up into the piping. So, we had to do that. One time, the liquid went down real fast, and it went up real slow in the receiving tank. We had to shut it off and find out what’s what. We could take pictures inside the tanks and stuff like that, so we went in. Well, the solid material in the tank that we were removing the liquid from had an annulus of solids around it. So instead of being the full diameter of the tank that we were pumping out, it was the inside. They didn’t match up, because a small radius of waste, versus the tank, which is the full radius. So we had a lot of troubles with stuff like that. We used to take a lot of pictures in the Tank Farms. Franklin: How would you take a picture of the inside of the tank? Anderson: You get a rigid pipe, if you will, and then you hook the camera up to it. And you can remotely set the frames down there and the flash. Then you can hold it or support it, whatever, and rotate it. So as it goes around in a circle, you’ll get pictures of it. The other thing that we did was put gas—you’d put the camera, wrap it in plastic so it won’t get contaminated—but you can’t do that with the lens. That would distort and stuff. So you had air being blown over the lens to keep it free and clean. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So you had little pieces of instrument pipe, I guess you’d say, that would do that. Franklin: Kind of spritz air across it? Anderson: But we did that in the casings, too, in the burial grounds. Franklin: And the radiation in the tank wouldn’t contaminate the film or any of the mechanical components of the camera or anything like that? Anderson: No, because they’re encased in that plastic. Franklin: And so then the camera was then safe to work with, too, once you unwrapped the plastic and everything. Anderson: Right. Franklin: That’s right, that’s really interesting. Anderson: We had almost a full-time photographer out there that did that. A lot of those were his ideas. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite something. Anderson: Now, I wrote a history book on the Tank Farms. Franklin: For DOE or just in general? Anderson: Just in general. So I wrote the document, and 90% of it or more is tables of what went where and all that sort of stuff. From Tank A to Tank B and to Tank C and so on. Franklin: And did you do this as a private citizen? Did you do it while you were working out there, or--? Anderson: Oh, I did it out there. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Anderson: See, I was in waste management, and I had all those different projects: I had the Tank Farms, the burial grounds, the cribs, ponds and ditches, and the gas emissions. The environmental group said, well, I’m doing their work. [LAUGHTER] So I lost all those reports except for the burial grounds. Which is fine, because there was more work in the burial grounds to do than the other. But I enjoyed the writing that history book. But as I went around the building, there was umpteen secretaries. Back then, no computers, you know, for us. So I’d say, you want to do some work for me? Sure! And I’d show them those tables, and—no! So it took me a long time to get them typed up. And then it was decided that it was too sensitive a material. So they wouldn’t let me publish it, but I could make operational copies. John Glenn, you know, the astronaut and senator and stuff, he was at a meeting, and I wasn’t there, so this is purely secondhand or more—but there was a Battelle document that was in the same category. They’d done the work on it, but they didn’t think they should publish it. So, he found out about that and so he asked the people there, he says, so what other documents are you hiding? They said, Anderson’s document. So I had 30 days to publish it. [LAUGHTER] That’s how it got published. Which is okay, but it didn’t have the scrutiny it should’ve had. But I put a cover letter on it that showed that. I had a lot of projects there. You do that. I had to look at the inventory—or the MUF—they called it the MUF back then: Material Unaccounted For—at Dash-5. Franklin: As in, radioactive material? Anderson: As in plutonium. Yeah. Because when you got kg quantities of stuff, you’re never going to be down to the gnat’s eyebrow. But I was asked to make a report on that, and I did. Since most of it was buried and so forth, we’ll probably never know how good the numbers were. Franklin: Right, some of it made it into the waste stream, right, in some form or another. Anderson: Right, and sometimes it might not even have existed to begin with. Franklin: Jillian wrote some things for me to ask you about here. So I’m just going to kind of go down the list, if that’s all right with you. If we’ve already covered it, please feel free to tell me that. She had on here, Tank Farms and emissions from Tank Farms. Anderson: Oh, we went through that, because— Franklin: Right, right. Anderson: They didn’t have HEPAs and so on. Franklin: What about waste generator requirements? Anderson: That’s on radioactive solid waste. We couldn’t do an audit, but we could do assessments. One of the requirements that DOE put on us was that you’re to check and find out what’s going on. So that was in DOE Order 5820, I think it was. So we set up a program, and I used to visit all the DOE sites that sent us radioactive waste. They could be colleges, they could be other research laboratories, and so forth. Once a year, I and another guy and sometimes a couple more would go to do the different generating sites and verify that they’re indeed meeting our requirements for disposal. We would actually look at the waste. Not just say, yea verily and bless it. We had to go in. And we found some interesting things in some of that. We found a Coke bottle—Coke can, I guess it was, in a radioactive waste. That’s not supposed to be in there, you know. And then down at 300 Area, we found a wooden box that had the janitor’s materials in it. Why would that be in there? Well, he didn’t know what to do with it. Franklin: When in doubt, put it in the garbage, right? Anderson: That’s right. So we had some oddball stuff like that. One of the biggest problems we had was lead. Because they came out with hazardous requirements as well as radioactive requirements. Well, lead, if you do the test on it, the laboratory test, it’s a hazardous material. I remember we had a lot of people in one of the laboratories that said, well, I’ve been using it to prop my laboratory door open for 20 years and it hasn’t killed me yet. Franklin: You’re talking about, what? Like, just a piece of lead? Like a lead doorstop or something? Anderson: No, just a chunk—a lead brick. Franklin: Just a lead brick. Anderson: Just a plain old lead brick. Franklin: Where would one get a lead brick? Anderson: Oh, out at Hanford, they’re everywhere. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I mean, you use them for shielding, mainly. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So, yeah, you get them everywhere. Franklin: Of course, now that would be almost unheard of, right, to just have lead bricks on the floor as doorstops. Anderson: Right. And we had lead glass, too. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Leaded glass. So we took some leaded glass and analyzed it. It’s also hazardous. It meets the—or fails the test, or whatever you want to call it. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: We even went over to—it wasn’t Macy’s then, but it was the people that owned that facility before. We got some Steuben glass. That is the most crystal clear glass I think there is, but it’s high in lead. So the problem is, for instance, if you like wine, you may not want to leave it in there too long. We even called Steuben up, and they said, oh, yeah, we know it. Franklin: Wow. Another thing here is concern about hydrogen explosions. Anderson: We had that in the burial grounds as well as the Tank Farms. Radioactive materials can decay and ionize other things—organics, for instance—and tear them apart. So you can generate hydrogen. So, you don’t want that to build up in your, say, a waste drum of solid waste. So, we had to come up with some techniques to use so that we could mitigate any chance of hydrogen buildup in a waste system. For instance, we ended up with catalyst beads that we put in solid waste in a screen. We screened it and put it together so it’d be on top. That’s where hydrogen likes to go and stuff. So then we also put clips, vent clips, on the side of the drum that would be good enough to allow hydrogen to weep out, but it wouldn’t be good enough to let the plutonium out. So we did all these different things. Franklin: Did you ever have a hydrogen explosion? Anderson: No. Franklin: Okay. So this was just a concern based on the probability, but not an actual event. Anderson: That’s correct. Franklin: Do you know of any hydrogen explosion in a waste tank? Anderson: Not in a waste tank, but that reactor back east did have hydrogen in it. Franklin: Which--? Three Mile? Anderson: Three Mile Island, yeah. Franklin: Mm. I see. So another bullet here is trenches for reactors. Anderson: Okay! Now, we started this a long time ago, but the Navy has reactors in subs and they also have them in, oh, the flat tops. Franklin: The aircraft carriers. Anderson: Aircraft carriers. Franklin: Oh, so this is the burial grounds for the reactors. Anderson: Right. So they come from the shipyard over on the west side of the state, and then they put them on a barge because they’re so heavy. They bring them up the Columbia and then they bring them to the dock just south of 300 Area. Is that right? Yeah, I think that’s right. And then they transport it on a vehicle that has multi, multi tires. Then they travel at about five miles an hour or so and take it out to the burial grounds. So we have all those reactors out there. If you look at them, the outside of it is the hull from the sub, for instance. And then they put a plate on the front and back and— Franklin: How did that start? Anderson: Well, the Navy—well, we had the treaty with Russia. What was it? SALT Treaty? Franklin: Strategic Arms Limitation? Anderson: And so Russia had to know how many missiles were available in the military. So when they’re in dock and they’re [unknown] they leave the missile ports open so satellites that go over can look in and say, ha, they’re clean. And they can still count them in the burial grounds, even though there’s nothing there except the reactor. But we have to meet that. That’s politics. I won’t try to second guess that. Franklin: Sure. That’s fine. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: There’s a place for politics. Anderson: Now, the old reactors out along the Columbia River, there was a lot of talk about putting those in the burial ground, too. There’s all sorts of techniques. Originally, they were going to bring them, but they decided to let them decay a while and then maybe bring them over, I don’t know. Franklin: Or who knows? Maybe they’ll become part of the National Park someday. Anderson: Could be. Franklin: And then the last one here is something I’m familiar with, Environmental Impact Statements. Anderson: [LAUGHTER] We wrote our first burial Environmental Impact Statement in the early ‘70s, I think it was. Franklin: Right, that would’ve been right after the creation of the EPA. Anderson: And so we did that and then later on, Battelle had to do them. So then we did a pre-report, or—I don’t want to call it a pre-report. A report that had the information in it, and let Battelle run with it. So we worked on a lot of those, too. But that would include, again, burial grounds—or it depends what the EIS is on. But if it was on the burial grounds. One of them was on high level waste; I remember that, and Tank Farms, I think it was. So, yeah. Franklin: So the EISs, then, covered the different waste management activities that were going on out at Hanford? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: And so what kind of work did that take to put together and EIS for high level waste or for Tank Farm remediation? Anderson: It took months. You had to estimate what was going to happen and how it was, and then you had to look at different scenarios. But we couldn’t say what the final scenario was, or the conclusion. Franklin: Just because you didn’t know, or--? Anderson: No, that was Battelle’s problem. Let them decide what’s what. Franklin: Did you find yourself spending a lot of time doing EIS work? Anderson: Whenever they happened, yeah. Otherwise it was kind of not there. I mean, we had to obey by them. Once they were issued, we had to meet their requirements. Franklin: Sure, sure. So from the early ‘70s, then, and you said you retired for good in 2012, where was most of your work centered? Anderson: From about 1971 on, it was in the burial grounds. Franklin: Okay, so the 200 Area burial grounds. Anderson: Burial grounds. Franklin: It says here that you retired in 1996. Anderson: I physically retired in ’96, and then they called me back and I worked until 2012. So I almost worked 50 years. Franklin: Wow. How did things change for you, beginning in the late ‘80s after the production shutdown? Did you find your job changed? Or did the outlook of your coworkers or the bosses of the Site change? Anderson: Actually, we had more work because of the inspections we had to do and things like that. So it didn’t cut the work. Franklin: Just got busier for waste management? Anderson: Yeah. I mean, the requirements got more and more, so we had that. Now, that doesn’t include the ERDF, because I never worked on the ERDF. Franklin: Sure. Were you involved in any way with the vitrification plant or that type of waste management? Anderson: Not much, no. I can’t say much about that. They did make a vault out there that they took Tank Farm waste and added concrete to. That didn’t work. Franklin: You’re talking about—no, you’re not talking about BWIP, are you? Anderson: No, BWIP is another deal. It’s over by one of the A Farm complexes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: But they were taking Tank Farm waste and trying to show that they could put it in a vault and solidify it. But—I never followed it completely, but I don’t think it ever lived up to its expectations. Franklin: As in cost expectations, or as in safety— Anderson: As in meeting the environmental requirements. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering, just quickly if we could go back in time a bit. Do you remember President Kennedy’s visit? Anderson: Yeah. [VIDEO CUTS] Anderson: To Kennedy’s visit? Tom Hungate: Yup. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, just—I wonder if you could tell me about that. Anderson: Well, I had to work. [LAUGHTER] But I was at PUREX when that happened. We had a door that the chemicals could come into the plant through. It was looking north towards the N Reactor. I can remember the cars going crazy out there and coming back the same way. So that’s all I could visually see, was what the traffic was going to and from. But, no, I wasn’t out there so I couldn’t say much on that. Franklin: Okay. When did your father retire from Hanford? Anderson: In the ‘60s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: And they called him back and he worked a few more times, 2,000 hours or whatever it was, and finally my mom said, that’s enough. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where did your parents move after the B house was sold? Anderson: Oh, they bought another B house about three or four blocks away from that one. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did they live there then, for the rest of their lives? Anderson: Yes. They lived on one side for a while and then they moved over to the other side and lived on the other side. Franklin: Did they rent out the other side? Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So I was just wondering, is there anything we haven’t mentioned in this interview that you’d like to talk about? Anderson: Well, depends, but it seems to me, like, for instance, the burial requirements—and a lot of places were that way—but I searched and I searched, and I finally found the original burial requirement. That was in an RWP and it was about that long. Franklin: Sorry, what’s an RWP? Anderson: Radioactive Work Procedure. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And there was a paragraph in it that was for the burial grounds. That was it. As time progressed—that was in the ‘40s, and as time progressed, they became more and more complicated and so forth because we had new requirements to meet. Then in probably the ‘80s, RCRA came in. So hazardous chemicals was also part of the problem. So you had to keep rad and hazardous and meet both requirements. Franklin: In the burial grounds. Anderson: In the burial grounds. The funny thing is, the first one I wrote was in the ‘70s. DOE said, we want you to put the sanitary landfill in it, too, so it covers not only the rad burial grounds but the sanitary landfill, which is the one in between East Area and the Wye Barricade. So I put that in there and we had to meet the requirements for that place in that document. I had to divide it up into the rad section and into the sanitary. So I issued it, and then DOE come back and says, what do you got this in there for, the sanitary? I said, because you told me to. And they said, well, take it out. [LAUGHTER] So they took it out. Or I took it out, because I had to rewrite it. And I was in on a lot of the rewrites after that. The documents got so thick and so forth, it was almost a fulltime job just to get that done. So that was probably something that was very important. The paper trail is not complete as far as I know. It took me a couple, three years to find the original one. Franklin: This report from the ‘40s. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And where was that? Or where does this appear in? Anderson: Well, I don’t know where it is, but an engineer had it and he had squirrelled it away. I found out through word-of-mouth and so forth where I might find it, and lo and behold, I finally did. But a lot of that early stuff— Franklin: Was it a Hanford-generated report? Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: It’s got a number and everything on it. So but that was interesting. In talking to some of the people—because the second half of—not second half; last third or so of the report I put together on the burial grounds—I interviewed the people that were involved in making the burial grounds and got a lot of good information on that. Franklin: You mean people that were involved in the early— Anderson: In the early East and West burial grounds. Franklin: And so you were kind of doing your own oral histories. Anderson: Well, that was for my document that I put together. Franklin: Well, sure. Anderson: It’s about that thick or whatever. [VIDEO CUTS] <a href="https://youtu.be/irJsdV1qKlU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor) 300 Area 100-K Area FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 234-5 Building REDOX T Plant B Plant 200 Area Burial Grounds Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962-2012 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Chemistry Civil defense Civil defense drills Description An account of the resource James Anderson moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. James worked on the Hanford Site from 1962-2012. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/14/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ted Anderson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Ted Anderson on May 11, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Ted about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Ted Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Okay. Theodore. Dahlin. Anderson. That’s T-H-E-O-D-O-R-E. D-A-H-L-I-N. A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. Franklin: Great. Thank you so much. And you prefer Ted, right? Anderson: Yeah, yes. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Well, there’s a little story here to that. Theodore is a compound name. Theo—it’s from the Greek. Theo is God; Dore is gift. So Theodore is gift of God. Ted, on the other hand, is to spread hay or manure. [LAUGHTER] Okay. Franklin: That’s good. So, Ted, tell me, how and why did you come to the Hanford Site? Anderson: How? Well, I’d had on-campus interview in 1967 with a representative from the Site here. Franklin: And where was this interview? Anderson: University of New Mexico. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I didn’t take a site trip. But then I went to work for DuPont back in Virginia, and became somewhat unhappy there. Having gone to school in Albuquerque with all sorts of desert, basically, around and mountains and stuff. That’s where Hanford sort of is. So I gave a call to Dr. Watson, who was the recruiter here, and said, you still interested in me? Oh, yeah, when can you get here? So then I came cross-country with my wife, my daughter, and two cars. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, that was 1969. Franklin: And when you were—so you did your—which degree did you do at— Anderson: Chemical engineering. Franklin: Chemical engineering, and was that a bachelor’s? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So what job did you come to do at Hanford in ’69? Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Came to work at Hanford. They were going to put me—well, I went to work in Tank Farms. But when I started out, all I knew was I was going to work at a nuclear reservation. Which, of course, at the time, there was a lot of secrecy. So they’re not going to tell you a lot until you get here. Franklin: Mm. So not knowing much about what exactly you’d be doing, what attracted you to come work at Hanford? Anderson: Basically, that it was desert, like New Mexico. And it was something new and different. I was probably a bit curious. I liked being in New Mexico where you could see for 50 miles, rather than in Virginia, where you’re lucky if you could see for a quarter of a mile. So, came out here. And of course, when we were first coming down from Spokane, and it’s June, late June coming up on July, and the wife is starting to look at all this brown country, because it’s desert. And she’s sort of looking at me, like, where have you brought us? Anyhow, that’s how I got here. Franklin: I think I and my wife had the same experience when we first moved out here. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Where am I? This is not the Washington I signed up for. Anderson: Yeah, where’s this “Evergreen State”? Franklin: So, you eventually went to work in the Tank Farms. So, I’m wondering if you could tell us, quickly, what the Tank Farms are, but then what your job, what your duties were there. Anderson: Well, there was radioactive waste that was created through the processing of spent fuel to get plutonium. The aqueous waste went into underground tanks. They’re nominally in the neighborhood of a million gallons. The first ones were 750,000 and later ones are actual full million gallons, 75 feet in diameter. They were basically concrete tanks with carbon-steel liners. So that’s where the waste went from reprocessing. Franklin: Were these tanks from like the World War II era on? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay, so these were the single-shell— Anderson: Well— Franklin: What were known as the single— Anderson: Later on there were double-shell tanks, but initially what I was looking after was—I think there was some—I don’t remember if there were any double-shell tanks when I first started. There may have been, but— Franklin: So what was your job with the tanks? Anderson: I was shift engineer. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Rotating shifts. There was a number of units—I had specific responsibility for two of them, which was ITS, In-Tank Solidification Units number 1 and 2. But I covered the entire Tank Farms, both East and West Area. So any time there was issues with waste transfers—they had another evaporator, 242-T, over in West Area. So I would make my rounds of Tank Farm operations. If there was any problems, try to troubleshoot. If it was something I couldn’t troubleshoot, then I’d make a little note of it and turn it in to the powers-that-be at shift change. Franklin: Which contractor was running the Tank Farms when you got here? Anderson: That was the Atlantic-Richfield Hanford Company. Franklin: Okay. So what was the primary—what was the goal of managing—like, when you say managing the tanks, what were the goals of that, what were the outcomes of tank management? Anderson: Oh, we were still producing a lot of aqueous waste. I mean, PUREX was in full operation. B Plant was processing waste to remove the cesium and strontium to try to get to a point where we could solidify waste. So, yeah, we were trying to accommodate the waste from—this is Cold War, of course. So there’s some pressure to make plutonium. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Although, I think we did way too good a job at it. Eventually, when you think the first bomb was talking about grams, and eventually we produced something over 16 tons, we learned altogether too well how to—but anyhow. For just the start of things, we’re trying to make space for the aqueous waste that’s produced primarily from fuel reprocessing but also from other processes. Franklin: Right, because there were several processes of the waste, right? There were several different chemical—distinct chemical processes for reprocessing spent fuel. Anderson: Oh, yeah, yeah. The first was what was referred to as BiPO-4. That’s bismuth phosphate, Bi-P-O-4. And that, they were just after the plutonium. So that was the initial thing. That’s how we got our plutonium for the first bomb. Then they decided that there was an awful lot of uranium that was going out with the aqueous waste. So they had, among other things, what they called a heavy metal recovery program, where they would reprocess the waste that was already in the tank and try to remove the uranium so it could be made back into fuel assemblies. Franklin: Were the tanks designed for the waste to be pumped in and out of them in this fashion? Anderson: They were made to transfer between tanks. Recovery—because partly what went out was liquid and part of it was solids. The uranium was in the solids, so you had to have some sluicing in the tank. And, no, the tanks were not built with the idea that you would remove solids from them. Franklin: To reprocess. Anderson: To reprocess. We did, but—then there was some over things that—they had what they called a space recovery program. So they hit waste in several tanks in East Area with a cyanide solution that precipitated, pretty quantitatively, the radioactive material out. And then they pumped the supernatant across the road to what they called BC Crib Area, which was open trenches, a specific retention site. The waste was pumped into there until they had—specific retention meant they didn’t want it to go all the way to the groundwater. So they calculate what the soil column could hold. When it reached that level, they moved it. So that was another thing they did. As I said, B Plant was in operation when I got there. There, they were separating the strontium and cesium from tank waste and encapsulating it. At the Waste Encapsulation and Solidification Facility, WESF. Again, the idea was that eventually they wanted to solidify the tanks with the waste inside, and that was going to be the permanent disposal. Which, to tell you a little story here, the initial work they did, they took samples out at the tanks. Very small samples, because it’s hot, radioactively. And they sent it to what was in those days PNL. That’s before they got the extra N. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Then they concentrated it. And they said it was concentrated by a factor of four and allowed to cool. It became a solid mass. Then they extrapolated that, or tried to, to million-gallon tanks. It didn’t really work that way. [LAUGHTER] There was multiple challenges. For instance, ITS-2, which was in Tank 112B-Y, used big immersion heaters, like million-watt immersion heaters, to heat the liquid in the tank and boil it. Then it was moved from 112B-Y to a series of what they called bottoms tanks where it was supposed to cool and solids settle out. We were going to create more space for more waste so we don’t have to build more tank farms. Trouble is it didn’t really happen like that; you had selective precipitation. It didn’t just set up all at once. Certain compounds would settle out and they formed a crust on top of the liquid, which didn’t help with the cooling, because the idea was that this hot stuff would go out into these tanks and the tanks were ventilated and you would evaporate more water. So that didn’t work. Then they put in airlift circulators which were supposed to open up the surface. That worked for a while, but eventually, you get down to maybe ten feet in diameter for the airless circulators. So it was an ongoing challenge. And there was some really funny chemistry. For instance in, well, no, 2B-Y, which was, yeah, in-tank unit 1. I was there; I was in-charge engineer, where we’d take a sample and send it over to the 222-S Lab. Well, the sample—and, you know, you didn’t want to get real close to it. We’d ship it in these pigs, lead-shelled containers. Went over to the lab, and I filled out the sheet that says here’s what the characteristics were, which was a clear, yellow liquid. Then I get a call a couple days later from the lab that says, your sample sheet says it was a clear, yellow liquid. What we’ve got has lots of solids in it. Well, it had cooled, okay? So, you know. Put a magnetic stirrer in it—and this is all going to happen in a hot zone. Put the magnetic stirrer on it and heat it up. Steve Buckingham was the lead engineer then, lead chemist. Bucky as he was fondly known. And he called me up and he said, it’s been on there for two days. Still full of solids. So what had happened, apparently, was there was an irreversible precipitation. In other words, it wasn’t just a compound that precipitated out that could be re-dissolved; there was a chemical reaction that had happened when it cooled. Very strange material, because there were so many chemicals in it—and we tried to replicate the waste so we could do cold testing. They were never able to get physical characteristics and chemical characteristics in the same surrogate. You could mimic the physical characteristics; you could mimic some of the chemical characteristics; but you couldn’t do both in a cold sample. So, yeah, some really strange stuff. Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. Wasn’t—this precipitating out of water, I understand that to kind of get the material to be more of a solid, to save space—would that water have carried any kind of radioactive traces with it as it was precipitating out? Anderson: Oh, yeah. So, as it came off, like, 112B-Y, we had condensers to cool it down. And then the air was put through a HEPA, High Efficiency Particulate Air filters. So that, again, what was released had minimal if any contamination in it. Franklin: Mm. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Anderson: I said, HEPA filters were nominally good for about 106 decontamination factor. So, yeah. It cleaned up the air pretty good. Franklin: Well, that’s good. What would be done with these filters, because I assume after a while they would be radioactive themselves, right? Anderson: Oh, yes, yeah. You could flush them. But ultimately, they didn’t really—there were things that plated out on them that would increase the delta pressure, dp as it was known, to the point where you can’t clean them enough to—and they were only good for maybe six inches dp before they could be ruptured, pulled through. So, yeah, another little story from—there was something called AR Vault, which was used when you recovered stuff from A Farm, AX Farm Tanks, it would go into AR Vault. They were recovering sludge. When they got enough of it, then they would pump it over to B Plant, okay. The way this was set up, there was four tanks in this semi canyon building. There’s a big open door at the end of it, where if you needed to bring equipment in, you could. Okay, well, there’s cover blocks, so once you bring the equipment in, you close the doors, then you could take the cover blocks off. So there’s two different speeds on the HVAC, heating ventilation air conditioning, system. One was the normal, when that door at the end of the thing was closed. And the other was when it’s open, you really crank it up. So I was shift engineer and talking to the operator there. At that point, AR Vault was not actively being used. There was a little lull in our processing. So he’s running on to me, he said, they really need to change those filters out on radiation levels. Not just wait for the differential pressure to go up. And I said, yeah, good point. So I wrote up a little, what we called DSIs. Don’t Say It, write it. I left that for management; said, here’s my recommendation. Well, about three years later, I’m working on low level waste management, and I heard that they quote-unquote sucked the filter at AR Vault. I thought, oh, well, hmm, okay. Not too long after that, I get a call from somebody that said, I’m just reading your memo here. Why didn’t they take action on that? I said, did you look at the date on that? Oh, that was quite a while ago! [LAUGHTER] Because what had happened is, with AR sitting there basically not doing a lot of processing, but you’re still ventilating, still getting some particulate, it kept loading the filters. But the airflow rate was low. So now they’re going to open up the canyon doors and they jack the airflow up. And of course, delta-p is not linear; it’s an asymptotic thing, with airflow. So when they jacked airflow up, it sucked the filter. Well, now, the filter was supposed to be contact-maintained. That is, you could go in and manually take it into a disposal container. Well, as the operator had pointed out, they didn’t change it out on radiation readings, and now it’s too hot to do it manually. So now what they had to do—and we’re talking about a rather large assembly. So now what they had to do is go in a considerable ways away from this filter assembly and open up the line, and build a parallel one and reroute it around to go through a whole new filter thing. And then they had to take the whole old filter thing out and bury it. So, you know, it’s things like that that there tended to be not a lot of thinking about what the potential is. So anyhow. One of the little stories. Franklin: That’s great, that’s a great story. So how long did you work as a Tank Farm shift engineer? Anderson: Well, initially, I did it for—let’s see, ’69 to like sometime in ’72. And then I was on days for a while. And then I think they thought I was a bit persistent on some things. So then they—you know, please don’t throw me in the briar patch—they put me on shift work. I like shift work. You can shop when the stores are not crowded. Things like, we had a popcorn club for the operators. Of course, I’m—you hang out with the operators. So, yeah, they’d buy popcorn in 50-pound bags. They’d buy popcorn in 5-gallon tanks. You paid a couple bucks a month; if you wanted to make popcorn, you went down to CR Vault—CR Tank Farm, rather—and got popcorn and oil and went back to where your lunch room and made popcorn. I mean, it was—there’s a lot of camaraderie when you’re working with people like that. So, yeah. I liked working shift work. When my daughter finally got into school, it was not quite as much fun. Because she and my wife could sort of adjust when she didn’t have to go to school. But then when she was in school, it started getting a little more challenging. But anyhow, that’s—I went back on shiftwork. Worked on shift work probably until, I’m thinking early ’75. Then back on day shift again. And finally, August of ’75, I decided I’d had enough and I quit. Franklin: So you quit the Tank Farm? Anderson: I quit the job. Franklin: Quit the job. Anderson: Yeah. I was, at that point, farming quite a few acres and had some rentals, and was looking forward to just doing my thing, thank you. Franklin: Yeah. Was there a particular incident that led you to quit, or—I’m wondering if you could kind of describe what happened to come to that decision. Anderson: Well, one of the problems was is that, again, management tended to be shortsighted, as in the AR Vault incident. I was told that my resignation letter, it was probably at one time or another in hundreds of files out there because people thought it was such a wonderful letter. But, you know, just—very shortsighted, wouldn’t listen to good technical advice. And again, not well-managed. So I basically out of frustration just said, you know, I don’t think I need this. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Do you think that was particular to the Tank Farm, the tank unit, or would that have been like a contractor-wide issue? Anderson: To some extent, it was contractor-wide. I think the Tank Farms may have been—but then again, maybe it’s just because I had that personal knowledge of Tank Farms. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Because there was other things that—it was always a short-term solution. Not looking out and saying, okay, how’s this going to work ten years from now, 20 years from now? It was more like, how is this going to work next month. So anyhow, yeah. And then of course eventually I went back to work for PNL. I was doing the initial waste vitrification demonstration. Franklin: So, tell me, how did you come to go back to work—you said you wanted to kind of do your own thing for—you know. But how did you end up coming back to waste management? Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Well, I was drawing unemployment because I had—well, another story. I quit and then I filed for unemployment and ARCO was going to dispute that. And I thought, oh, good, because I had lots of documentation of not being employed to use my chemical engineering education. Which is, you know, if you quit with cause and you can demonstrate the cause, you get unemployment. You have to wait seven weeks, or you did then, but you—you know. So I had done that. Then the wife and I—there was supposed to be a hearing in, I think, December. And the wife and I had gone off to Hawaii for a little bit of vacation. Came back, and lived in Benton City at that time, which had no home delivery of mail. You had to be a post office box. So we went up to the post office box, and here’s a stack of unemployment checks. ARCO dropped their—apparently, they decided that they didn’t want to get any legal go-arounds. So then I drew unemployment for as long as I could. When I got into my final 13-week unemployment thing, they were really insisting that I do some serious interviewing. Of course, I have to confess that one of the things that I thought made me unemployable was I had tried to unionize the engineers. [LAUGHTER] Anderson: Yeah, okay. Franklin: Yeah, that kind of will sometime earn the ire of management. Anderson: Well, they wouldn’t have dared to do anything like fire me, but they wouldn’t have dared to do anything like hire me back. Franklin: Right, right. Anderson: So anyhow I was interviewing with Jack McElroy, who was PNL. And they wanted me to help with—they were doing a waste vitrification demonstration project. They needed help, and I had a lot of background. He said, all I ask is one thing: promise you won’t engage in any unionizing activities—organizing activities. And I said, you got it. So, then I was working for PNL. Franklin: So, sorry, I’m very curious. I want to go back a bit because you just mentioned this unionizing thing now. What led you to that kind of activism when you were at your job at ARCO? Why did you try to unionize? Anderson: Because other people were having the same problems I was. The people—good people tended to be leaving. So your overall quality of the people you work with can tend to go down with times. And there’s a lot of people that, you’d talk, and they’d talk, but they don’t do anything. And I’ve never been one to—if you’re going to talk the talk, walk the walk. So I got together, we—what was it, the Hanford Employees—anyhow, we had a whole bunch of people with names that were interested in doing this. We quickly decided that we really couldn’t afford to do this if we were being challenged in court, because we didn’t have the resources. So then we contacted some professional unions, for instance, Boeing, their union. Their engineers are unionized, and we talked with them. Campbell’s Soup Company, of all things, was unionized and had their technical people in that. So, yeah, we were moving down that road. One of the things that stopped us was we didn’t want to be sucked up into another organization. It was beginning to look like you’re going to have trouble maintaining your independence if you get the help you need to fight the corporate people. Franklin: Right, because they’re going to want—another union would want your membership to bolster their ranks. Anderson: Yeah, and of course, none of them really understood Hanford, which was going to be another problem. So, that was basically—we said, no, this probably, it’s not the right time, maybe it’s not the right—you know. But apparently we had scared the tar out of management. I was told that there was some really serious conferences down in the Federal Building, fondly known as the Fed Shed, of people wondering what to do if we actually officially tried to unionize. I didn’t know I’d caused all that consternation, but—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: I guess word about you had spread. Anderson: Well, actually, there was three of us. I’m trying to think who the other two were. I can’t think of their names just offhand. But we actually were on TV, interviewed. You know, this is what we’re thinking about. Okay. But they’d say, these are engineers you’re working with who tend to be horribly practical. You know, you look down the road and you say, you know, I don’t know how this is going to work, and if we give up our independence, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to attract enough people to really get a viable vote. So we finally said, okay. Heavy sigh. But meanwhile, they made some changes for the engineering. Because engineering wage increases had been lagging the craftworkers, the union members. They were getting like 5, 6% a year, and we were getting like 4%. Which was one of the sticking point, you know. The squeaky wheel gets oiled, so let’s us be a squeaky wheel. Franklin: Do you know of any other—I assume you did your research in some of these other companies. Did you find any other atomic sites that had had engineers that had unionized? Anderson: Not that I recall, no. I’m sorry. There was one other professional union we had talked to. I want to say that maybe it was 3M but I don’t recall. I know Campbell’s and Boeing were the two for sure that we talked to. Franklin: Yeah, Campbell’s is very interesting. I wouldn’t have— Anderson: Oh, and United Auto Workers, also. That was another one. Franklin: Ah. Anderson: They’re union—their engineers were unionized. So yeah. Franklin: Cool, well, thank you. I’d not heard of that attempt before, so it’s really, that’s interesting. Anderson: Oh, okay, well, good. Franklin: One last question, too, before we go to your time at PNNL, about the Tank Farms. I’m getting the sense that, from your perspective, that there was much more of a—that tank waste management at that time was more about finding more room for waste to continue production than it was about ensuring the safety—or kind of the safety and stability of the tanks. Or, it seemed like there was more short-term focus than long-term planning. Anderson: Well, yeah. Franklin: Because that waste would have to sit there. Was there any talk of where that waste would go? Whether it be a repository or what would happen to it? Anderson: No, the assumption was it was going to be solidified in the tanks and left. Franklin: Oh. Really? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. As in—from an engineer’s perspective, would that have been a feasible project? Anderson: It would’ve taken—for instance, what you wound up with, with the successive evaporations, is a very caustic solution. When it cools it doesn’t really solidify, it just gets thick. Sodium hydroxide, basically, lye. So one of the things that was talked about was the fact you get the tank to a certain point and you load it up with grout, cement, basically. We also did some experiments with fly ash, because that would absorb liquid. But again, in those days, there was no talk of the waste coming out of the tanks. Vitrification was not on the table. Franklin: Had there been any—had all the tanks maintained their stability at that point? Had there been any— Anderson: Oh, no, no. I’ll tell you the story about the tar rings. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Okay. I say, these tanks are basically concrete tanks with carbon steel liners. Okay, well, we were developing in-tank photography. A good friend of mine, Jerry Everett, was the lead on that. He was with PNL, a photographer. So they developed techniques for lowering a camera into the tank and rotating it. So you got—and you could build a montage of the interior of the tank. Well, about the second tank they did that to, you could see there were black rings around certain points. Okay. Well, the tanks between the carbon steel and the cement was mastic, as they called it—tar. Because that was meant to basically seal it tight between the—okay. Well, now, if you’re seeing tar, that indicates that the carbon steel integrity is gone. Okay. And it was all sorts of theories about how that could happen. Potentially, they talked about microorganisms that could withstand the radiation and oxidize. And of course, young engineer and I expounding on some of these to one of the old operators. And he said, iron-loving biota, my ass. Oh? What happened? He says, they just jumped an un-neutralized batch out. Because the processing was done on the acid side. And then you hit it with caustics so it would be compatible with the carbon steel. And he said, so, you know, if you didn’t get the caustic added to the batch, it would go out to the tank, it would potentially float on the surface and eat up the carbon steel. And I said, so, is that written down some place? And he looked at me like I was an idiot. He said, hell no! I said, what did you do? Put the caustic down the pipe after it! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: With no mixing. Anderson: No. Of course, then the record shows you’ve used caustic. Here’s, we used however many gallons. [LAUGHTER] Okay, so there’s stories like that that I’m sure nobody would really want to admit, even today, but that’s what the operators said occasionally happened. You’d send an un-neutralized batch out. Of course, there was other things that went on. Like, S-X Farm over in West Area. It had initially been bottoms tanks for REDOX. And then they decided that they were going to try to use them further. REDOX was the first solvent extraction predecessor to PUREX. So the material that was coming out, then, was a lot more concentrated as far as radionuclides. Well, they were in a hurry to build the S-X tanks; because REDOX was coming online, you need a place to put that stuff. So the earlier tanks were built with a slightly convex/concave, whichever way you look at it, bottom, so it was a bit rounded on the bottom. Well, S-X, they built them flat, because it was faster. I mean, trying to weld carbon steel and get that—okay. Well, then, lo and behold, here’s this really hot waste, sludge, in the bottom of the tank. And of course, the concrete has some residual moisture in it. It evaporated the residual moisture and the tanks buckled up like this. Franklin: And cracked, right? Anderson: Well, cracks formed. They buckled up as much as eight feet. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Well, it’s a 75-foot-diameter tank. Franklin: Sure, yeah, yeah. Anderson: But, yeah. So that was another thing. Eventually, what they did was try to move as much supernatant from the tanks that had the—it was 108S-X and 107S-X, I think. Franklin: So had they been concave, would they have buckled? Anderson: Nah. Well, likely not. Because you’ve got a lot of weight from the aqueous and the sludge. So the moisture probably would have, under some pressure, worked its way out. But, you know. They were in a hurry. Franklin: Right, got to have somewhere to— Anderson: Put. It’s the Cold War. We’re thinking we’re going to be in a nuclear war with Russia any time soon, so— Franklin: It’s so interesting to me that now we’ve been in this cleanup mode for almost three decades. It’s the constant topic of conversation and planning for the future and worrying, and it seems like that’s the complete opposite of the first 40 or so years, when waste was always the after thought and the idea was, well, let’s just make more room so we can pack more of it down there. It’s always like we’ll get to this later, like, constantly tabled issue. Anderson: You just keep pushing it off, pushing it off, because we have our short-term priorities. Franklin: Right. I think it’s hard for people now to understand, how couldn’t they have been planning? Understanding, knowing the basic science of how long these radioisotopes would take to decay, but then also knowing the chemicals that were used in this process, you know. Anderson: Well, one of the things that was explained to me and it makes perfect sense is, there was no experience, no history. So what they did was followed standard industrial practice. If it’s no good anymore, you bury it. Again, without the experience, what they had to go on was what had been going on forever in industry. So just transfer that to the nuclear side. Franklin: No, it’s perfectly rational. In its own way. But I guess with hindsight, it’s like, wow. Anderson: Well, hindsight is always 20/20. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of a scary rational decision in some ways. Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So in ’85, right, you—no, sorry, before that. Anderson: ’75. Franklin: ’75 you went to work at— Anderson: PNL. Franklin: This kind of new—was vitrification a new—was this kind of an emerging idea then, or was it already established for nuclear waste? Anderson: It was emerging. This was some of the work that supported DWPF, Defense Waste Processing Facility, back at Savanna River. Which I became intimately involved with. It was—yeah. I spent a good part of my life working on waste vitrification design and startup. Franklin: So the idea, then, instead of removing moisture, putting in tanks, is to turn the waste into a solid and encapsulate it, correct? Anderson: Yeah. It’s a vitreous product, glass. And then, well, Savanna River’s using these two-foot diameter stainless steel, that eventually, the intent is that it goes to a repository. But some of the early work looked at, what’s the place over in Africa where they had the natural reactor? Franklin: Oh, I can’t—I know— Anderson: It’s Oklo, or something like that? Franklin: Something like that, yeah. Anderson: Anyhow, what they found is that there’s enough heat there that a lot of material was vitrified. Now you go back thousands and thousands—hundreds of thousands of years later, and it’s still there. It hasn’t migrated. So yeah, you put it in glass and it’s not going anywhere. So that was the earlier work in. What PNL was doing was chop-leech of commercially irradiated—from West Valley, as I recall. Franklin: And that’s in New York, right? Anderson: Yeah. We brought them here, disassembled them, chop-leeched the fuel elements, dissolved out the— Franklin: So, sorry, what was that word you just said, chop leech? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: What—can you— Anderson: Oh, okay. What you did is there’s—and I did the design for this. The fuel assemblies are fairly complicated, typically like a 12x12 array. But it varies depending on whether it’s a PWR, BWR, and those change at times. But developed techniques to take the head plate off so you can get at the fuel rods. And then you had a little clamping device comes out and pulls it into a hydraulic press. So you pull it like four inches through, you chop off two inches. You pull it another four inches through—so you get two two-inch pieces with each chop. Then it falls from there directly into a tank where you leech out or dissolve out the uranium and plutonium, whatever’s there. Then that’s going to be mixed with glass formers and turned into glass logs. Franklin: Okay. And this is done with the old, with the fuel rods? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And so West Valley sent these rods to PNNL? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: West Valley was shut down. And they didn’t quite know what to do with the spent assemblies that were already there. So we helped them get rid of a couple of them. Franklin: Right. Was West Valley, was that a commercial—those commercial power reactors? Anderson: Yeah, it was intended to be a commercialization of fuel reprocessing. There were two places in the Untied States where that was supposed to be. That was basically a prototype. I mean, it was going to be commercial, but—and then the Morris Plant, GE’s Morris Plant, which was in Illinois. Morris Plant never got beyond early testing. They got it contaminated, but not badly. West Valley actually had processed fuel. And the problem there was that the powers-that-be kept changing the rules. They built the plant to the rules that existed at the time they built it. And then the government changed the rules, and then they tried to update. And the government changes the rules again. And they finally just sort of threw up their hands, and—Bechtel, actually, was the company that built West Valley. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: So they had some pretty practical knowledge of what was in there. In fact, I worked with a guy, Jack Nelson, who was one of the chief engineers on that. And Jack is still alive, down in the San Francisco Bay area. He occasionally sends little humorous things with another friend of mine down there who shares them with me. Franklin: Oh, that’s cool. So how come PNNL or PNL then, I guess—it seems like there’d be a national lab much closer to West Valley to send those— Anderson: Well, it wasn’t initially to process West Valley. We needed fuel assemblies. And they started casting around for where we might get them. Commercial reactors weren’t necessarily—they still had the idea that they were going to be able to reuse them. So we’d get them for free, basically, I think the idea was we’d pay shipping. Franklin: I’d imagine still is no small feat for used fuel assemblies. Anderson: Yeah. Anyhow, yeah, that’s how we got— Franklin: So how come that—why was the decision made to start vitrification with this commercial or reprocessing fuel assemblies rather than something at Hanford, like some sort of waste from Hanford? Anderson: Well, first of all, the Hanford waste, a lot of it, was slugs. Okay, if you look at what was in B Reactor, C Reactor, the earlier reactors, they weren’t fuel assemblies. What they had is tubes that they loaded metallic slugs in, I think they were like two feet long. Anyhow, if you go out to—you know about BRMA, B Reactor Museum Association? Franklin: Yeah, I’m actually a member, a board member of BRMA. Anderson: Okay, well, I’m a member. I pay my dues, but— Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So you can see there what the fuel slugs look like. Franklin: Yeah, we have some of those in our collection. Anderson: Yeah. Cold ones, but— Franklin: Yes, yes. We do not have hot ones. Let me just say that on camera: we do not have actual— Anderson: Radioactive materials. Franklin: We have the testers and the displays. Anderson: So anyhow, those weren’t really conducive to—because we were looking for something to apply to commercial nuclear fuel. What existed at Hanford was—it wasn’t going to be typical. Franklin: So these fuel assemblies then, are maybe similar to the Fast Flux stuff where they were these longer rods, okay. Anderson: Well, what they were was, again, as I recall, don’t quote me on this, but, like, 20-feet long, and a 12x12 array. There were spacers and cooling tubes. It came as an assembly that would slip into a reactor. Franklin: Gotcha. Anderson: When they did their refueling. Franklin: Okay, okay, thanks. All my experience with reactors is with out here. So I kind of forget about the—I forget how different commercial is from—or reprocessing is from the Hanford stuff. Anderson: Yeah. And of course, the commercial fuel is burned up a lot higher. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Because—I’m probably telling you what you already know, but, really, you didn’t want to irradiate the fuel too far at Hanford, because your 239 starts becoming 241 and pretty soon you wind up with something that won’t go boom. Franklin: Right. But in commercial you want that long-sustained. Anderson: You want to burn it up as long as you can because you paid a lot for it. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah, I think that’s something maybe that a lot of people don’t understand is how different those processes are. You don’t make bomb material in a commercial reactor. It doesn’t—it’s the exact opposite. Anderson: No. Well, initially, if you take a fuel assembly that’s just been installed for a few months and you pull that out, you potentially could process it to get it up to Pu-239 to go boom. 239, 238? It’s 239, I’m pretty sure. Franklin: Close enough. Pu. Anderson: Close enough for government work. Franklin: So in ’75 you start working on this waste vitrification. What did your—what was the outcome of the project? Was it a success? What did you produce? Anderson: I actually left before they actually—I designed the stuff, watched the stuff get built, and then I went off job shopping and wound up back out at Hanford, working on low level waste for Hank McGuire. Franklin: Okay, and how come you left PNNL before the project got underway? Anderson: Okay, well, initially PNL was a great company to work for. Ev Irish was the guy that was in charge of the whole thing. There was an awful lot there that was totally novel, and he just said, figure it out. Yes, sir. I mean, that’s—so I, for instance, was back Midwest, checking on the press operators. Things like zirconium, which was fuel cladding. But it is pyrophoric, so you do some research and say, we’re going to be storing these casings. There had been reports of fires starting in zirconium. It’s fun stuff. You’d get a casing and you scrape it along concrete, and it sparks. Just—it can be fun! Franklin: Sure, sure. Anderson: Anyhow, and they had flex time. You had to be there core hours, which was 10:00 in the morning to 2:00 in the afternoon. So I’m doing things like getting there at 6:00 in the morning and leaving at 2:30. Get my eight in. And then I could get my boat out on the water, sailboat. You know, it was great. I was given a lot of free reign. Then they decided we’re going into pretty much production mode and they got this guy in from GE’s Morris Plant, who was pretty much the north end of worse going south. And he said to me, what hours are you working? And I said, 6:00 to 2:30. Well, you need to work the same hours as everyone else. Well, we have flex time. Well, we’re not going to have flex time. Okay. That’s just one of the—he was a butt. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: And I had pretty much got my design in place, and I thought, let’s do something else. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: I’m not a patient soul; I tend to be restless. Next challenge, thank you. Franklin: And, okay. So then you said you went and shopped. When was this, that you left? Anderson: Gee, I went back to work in, it was ’76. I was there for a little less than two years. So it would’ve been ’77, ’78, I went back out. Well, I’d signed up with Butler R. Day, and I thought maybe I’d go someplace interesting like Oak Ridge. But they wouldn’t tell you where, you know. It’s a nuclear thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You see my resume; I can do that. And they said, okay, here’s where you’re going. I don’t think they’d looked at where I was at. They said, you know, if you have to commute more than 50 miles, then you’d get mileage. It’s about 25 miles, I’m sorry, I don’t get no mileage. But you know I’d signed up and it was good money. I mean, in the day it was—no real bennies, but $15 an hour in 1978, considering the minimum wage was considerably less than that. So I did that for six months. Then because they couldn’t hire you away from Butler R. Day until at least six months. And then basically as soon as my six months were—here, sign here. Okay, sure. Yeah, I was apparently appreciated. Franklin: Oh, good. So what were you doing? You said after PNL you left and went back to Hanford. Anderson: Low level radioactive waste management. Franklin: Low level—and what is that, specifically? Break that down for me in layman’s terms. Anderson: Okay. There’s all sorts of sites where contaminated liquids and solids had been disposed of, just in the ground. Cribs, specific retention sites, just—you know. Things like where there was a canal from B Plant that went out to a cooling pond. And then they had the Cell A incident at B Plant which resulted in a large strontium release. And so now that canal is contaminated all the way out. So what they do is they put a lot of dirt on it and dig a new one and we move on. But now it’s a low level waste site. So as I recall there’s close to 400 of them. Franklin: At Hanford? Anderson: Well, no, at 200 East and West. Franklin: 400 of them at 200 East and West. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And this is just a mix of like contaminated ground and— Anderson: Yeah, canal—liquids. Again, some stuff buried. It was a lot of liquids. Cribs and so forth. Cribs and spills. Franklin: Sure. And the cribs were just to—were these usually just like holding facilities? Anderson: No, no. Basically, it was to dispose of slightly contaminated aqueous water. And the idea was that the Hanford soil is a very good ion exchanger. And the water table’s like 200 feet down. So by the time that this waste gets to the water, it’s been cleaned up. Franklin: Like a natural filter. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: But then— Anderson: That leaves the ground contaminated. Franklin: Right, then the filter’s contaminated, yeah. Not the water, but you contaminate the soil. Anderson: Yeah, well, the idea was that nobody’s ever going to live there, so, you know, they’re not going to be punching wells down in 200-East 200-West Area. Franklin: Well, I would hope not. Anderson: Yeah. So you know, that was considered—and I think I mentioned the specific retention sites with the stuff that they weren’t sure if it could be held up by the soil column. They would pump enough liquid in to saturate the soil column without reaching the water table. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: Of course, I have to tell you another little story from back in my early days in Tank Farm. There was a tank in C Farm, I want to say it’s 103-C, which was OWW, that’s organic wash waste receiver from PUREX. Because PUREX, part of their process used NPH, normal paraffin hydrocarbon. And they liked to reuse that because it was expensive, so they would aqueous wash it. And then the aqueous wash would go out to 103-C. Well, there was some small amount of organic entrained over time. And then they were going to send 103-C, pump its feed over to my ITS-2 unit. You don’t want organic in—it was going to be above the flashpoint. So if you accidentally got organic in there, you could have a real nasty incident. Franklin: What—such as? Anderson: Explosion. Franklin: Oh, okay. That’s pretty nasty. Anderson: Yeah, you’d get it up to the flashpoint, and then all it took was an ignition source. Franklin: Okay. Gotcha. Anderson: So they’d taken a sample of 103-C, sent it over to the lab, and then said, that sample was all NPH. What? Again, this is crude sampling; you drop a bottle down to the tank liquid, let it sink until it gets filled and pull it up. And then rinse it off, put it in a lead pig, and send it down to the lab. So they said, oh, okay, that’s not good. We don’t want to pump that stuff to a hot environment. So then I was given a task—this would’ve been 1970, ’71—of finding out how much organic there was in 103-C. And I was given a magnificent budget of $250,000. Which in today’s money you could probably put a couple zeroes after that. And they were talking about things like radar and sonar. So now I have a problem, what to do. I’m working graveyards and—what is the difference between the—let’s see, the aqueous phase has a specific gravity of about 1.12. The organic is like 0.8. So there’s a big difference in the density, specific gravity. How would you—huh, Mr. Archimedes, buoyancy, yeah. So I sketched up a little thing that would go through a 12-inch riser. Plywood disk, appropriately weighted with enough lead plate so that it would sink. And put an eyebolt through the whole thing. So I had it sketched up and went down in the bowels of B Plant, to the shops, and said, could you build something like that? Yeah, where’s your work order? It’s just a piece of plywood. Why do I—? Let me take a look at it. So about two hours later, I get a call: are you going to come pick this up or not? Yeah, I’ll be right there. [LAUGHTER] Well, then, I was too lazy to write a test plan. So I waited until the weekend and my shift supervisor, as I recall, was Dean Curtis, known fondly as Curly because he was bald. So I said this is what I want to do in C Farm. Can you get me a couple operatives to--? Oh, yeah, sure. So, we took the riser cover off, had a tape and a fish scale and lowered it down. You can see when—as soon as you hit the liquid, the weight decreases pretty dramatically. And you keep lowering it, slowly, against the side of the riser with the tape. And then it gets a lot lighter as it hits the aqueous phase. And I had them repeat it. I’m taking numbers down. I had them repeat it five, six times, just to make sure it was good to within half-an-inch. But we had like 11 inches of organic on top of the aqueous. Okay, and then, yeah, let’s clean up here. Of course, now, the tape is contaminated, the plywood disk and the lead are contaminated, and the operators are whining about, well, now we’re going to have to wash that down and bag it out. I get the fish scale out. Oop! I dropped it. Oh my goodness. Ha, ha, ha. So it’s in the tank. Okay. So we button it up, I go back and write out my report and turn it in. Pissed my lead off to no end, because I didn’t spend any of the $250,000. The point I’m making here is the tanks were generally seen as, if you got something that you needed to get rid of out in the Tank Farm, open up a riser and put it in. Franklin: Right, because it’s all just so messed up down there anyway. Anderson: Yeah, or, we’re never going to get that stuff out of there, so why—So there were cement blocks, you know—that I know of! Now, Lord knows what went in there that I don’t know of. Okay, but that’s an ancestral story that—you probably shouldn’t let someone like me work shiftwork. Franklin: That’s a great story. Thank you. And so how long did you work as a low level waste engineer? Anderson: Until June of 1980. So probably close to two years. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Yeah, a lot of that was we had a subcontractor, Ford, Bacon & Davis down in Utah, Salt Lake City. So a lot of what I was doing was going back and forth. Because what they were supposed to be doing was writing this massive report. Franklin: On the low level waste? Anderson: Sites, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Well, it turned out I probably wrote half of it myself, because they had been chosen on the buddy system I think. We had competitive bidding and they changed the rules in order for Ford, Bacon & Davis to get it. Franklin: I see. Anderson: Nice people, but the one really good guy, shortly after we got into this, they sent him off to Washington, DC. Paul something was his name. Good guy. But so anyhow, then we’d gotten that well underway. It was actually in DOE’s hands for approval. Meanwhile, I was separated from my wife. I’d gotten involved with a young lady who was attending Mills College down in Oakland, and then ran across an ad in Nuclear News from Bechtel looking for someone with vitrification experience. Which I had from PNL. The next thing you know, I’m headed for Bechtel in San Francisco. Franklin: Oh, wow, what a change. Anderson: Yeah, it was—I’d never lived in the big city before. Well, Rochester, New York, but it was on campus. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anderson: So now I’m taking public trans, you know. I was a serious runner at that point. And around here, a good part of the year you don’t have any races. Maybe you have one every month or so. In the Bay Area, there’s races every weekend. You could be really picky. I tended to pick the ones that had beer afterwards. Anyhow, that was—I had a very lovely time working for Bechtel, a great company. They took good care of me. When I first moved there, they’d given me a raise, a little bit less than 8%. But basically the guy I was directly reporting to, the chief, technically reporting to, had said, if Bechtel likes what you do, you’re not going to be able to change jobs to your financial advantage. Okay. So when they hired me, I said, okay, I remember that. About six months later, I got a 19% raise. So yeah. Franklin: That’s pretty good. Anderson: Yes, it’s a vote of confidence. It’s like, yeah, I like this. Franklin: That’s great. So you were doing vitrification work down there. Anderson: Yeah, doing the initial design work for Defense Waste Processing Facility. Franklin: At Savanna River. Anderson: At Savanna River, yeah. Franklin: So then you—but left San Francisco after a while and you came back to Richland? Anderson: I was—well, yeah. It was about five years there. We pretty much wrapped up—I wouldn’t say wrapped up, because we never wrapped up. But had the bulk of the design done, and they were going to shift things back to Savanna River. And being a process engineer, my engineering work tends to be at the front-end. Piping in instrument documents and things like that. Once I got those out the door, then you’re talking to your civil structural whatever people. So the job in San Francisco was winding down. That was in the mid-‘80s. We were in a bit of an economic slump. There wasn’t a lot of work in the Bay Area. DuPont said they wanted me to work for them back in Savanna River, because apparently they liked me, too. So then I filled out an application there. My old boss up here, Hank McGuire, I’d put down as a reference. And he said, if you’re looking for a job, why wouldn’t you look here? Okay, I didn’t know that—Oh, yeah! So then, the wife was going to start an advertising agency. She’s from the Tri-Cities. Wife, at that point. And said, it’d be a lot easier to start an ad agency where you know the territory, rather than going to the east coast where—so I took the job here at Hanford. So, yeah, that was lots of fun. Franklin: And what did you do this time around? Anderson: Oh, my goodness, what did we do? Well, it was more back on the low level waste stuff again. Trying to— Franklin: It says here in my notes that Jillian wrote down that you came to work on the Vitrification Plant before going to Savanna River to work on— Anderson: Oh, okay, yeah, that’s what. Yeah, the earlier—thank you for reminding me, because I’m going—At that point, it was called HWVP, Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant. Or, as the Indian manager called it, H-W-Wee-P. Had trouble with those Vs. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Anderson: He was a perfect example of—spoke good English, but idiomatic English? That’s difficult. So we who worked for him kept a little quotable quotes. Things like “a whole new ball of games.” And “out in the boondoggles.” Some of them were quite descriptive, I thought. Franklin: Yeah, that seems to be. Anderson: But he just was not doing very good with idiomatic English and he shouldn’t have been trying! Anyhow, that’s—yeah, HWVP. Franklin: And what is HWVP? Anderson: Well, that was just a precursor to vitrifying Hanford waste. That was a limited scope. They were not—the current one, Vit Plant, is supposed to basically address all the tank waste. HWVP was focused on high level waste. Franklin: And where was high level waste—what defines high level waste? Anderson: Boiling waste tanks. Franklin: Boiling waste tanks. Anderson: Yeah. But it was, again, very poorly managed. It was supposed to be just a duplicate of DWPF. Well, DWPF nominally was built for $620 million. They were still pouring concrete on startup money. So the actual cost was closer to a billion. Now, we’re going to build HWVP for $620 million just using the same drawings, which—it was so incredibly stupid. First of all, source term for Savanna River for exposure was for continuous exposure was 0.5 mR per hour. For intermittent was 5. Okay. For Hanford, it was .2 and 2. Different criteria. On top of that, the Hanford source term is roughly twice as radioactive as DWPF. So now that your shielding, it’s just not going to work. So you’re going to have to redesign all your shielding, which means you’re going to have to redesign all your m beds, which means—and that’s just one fallacy. Franklin: Sure. How come the radiation standards were so different between the two facilities? Anderson: Part of it is that, of course, DWPF was meant to support hydrogen bomb. So the stuff just wasn’t burned up as far and the waste wasn’t as hot. Where, Hanford, boiling waste tanks were screaming hot. PUREX was a very good process at minimizing the amount of aqueous waste you’re producing. Franklin: So it’s all concentrated. Anderson: Yeah, and screaming hot. Franklin: And screaming hot. Because you’ve concentrated all those isotopes once you’ve removed the water that the aqueous— Anderson: Yeah. Well, some of it. Franklin: Some of it, right. Anderson: So, yeah, the boiling waste tanks were self-concentrating. Franklin: Because the heat keeps evaporating— Anderson: Liquid. It boils, and you have to deal with—so you’ve got condensers on the off-gas. And of course the HEPA filters. But yeah, source term—well, and the source terms were very conservative. They looked at the worst stuff we had in the boiling waste tank and said you’ve got to design to that. And of course, we engineers said, well, why wouldn’t you mix that with—we don’t know that that can be done or will be done. You have to design to the highest possible. Right, okay. Franklin: And so, given these challenges, what happened with the Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant? Did it get built? Anderson: Oh, no, no, no. Nothing ever—it just kept getting screwier and screwier. So eventually I wound up back at Savanna River. Took a temporary assignment there with Bechtel. Well, story here. I’m working happily—well, working and getting paid happily, okay—here at Hanford. Westinghouse was the contractor at that point. So they put a notice up on the board that Westinghouse had gotten the new contract at Savanna River. Of course, Bechtel was a subcontractor to it in the announcement. So there was a good friend of mine with Bechtel in San Francisco, Vick [unknown]. So I picked up the phone to call Vick and congratulate him. No answer. I just hung up the phone like this, and it rings. Picked it up, and it’s Vick calling from Savanna River. Well, they’re going to have to be staffing up because DuPont’s engineers are leaving, Westinghouse is not taking over that part, so Bechtel is supposed to pick that up. And do I know anybody who might be interested in--? At that point, I was rather frustrated with HWVP. And I said, talk to me. So they did and I went back there on a temporary assignment. While there got divorced from the second wife. So then, okay, roll over to a permanent position there at Savanna River. I went back there as EGS, engineering group supervisor. So I had as many as, what, 38 FTEs reporting to me. FTE is full-time equivalents. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Okay. Franklin: Been here not that long, but long enough to have picked up some of the acronyms. Anderson: Okay. So then I was at that for a couple years, then they moved me up to task manager, which is multi-discipline. Then I ran the project thing, late wash project design, conceptual design report. Which typically was going to take two years for novel technology. They said you’ve got six months. We got it done! And then I was manager of design completion engineering—I forget what, the title is about this long. No more money, but the title was about—[LAUGHTER] So, yeah, that was—and then, again, that job’s winding down, and— Franklin: As the plant was being built? Anderson: Yeah. So they say, oh, don’t worry about it, you’ll be the one turning out the lights. No. I don’t see myself as the electrician turning out the lights. So then I transferred with Bechtel to southern California. They supposedly had a couple things they were going to—because I’m now a professional engineer in the State of California. There isn’t that many professional chemical engineers. It’s a rather rigorous exam to do that. Like, all day. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Two four-hour sessions. Pass rate the year I took it was 27%. Okay. So they thought I would be valuable. Well, they were going to have me on a clean air project with ARCO. And ARCO delayed that part of it. Then they had another one that, oh, yeah, we got this one in the bag. They didn’t get it. So now I’m looking at another—I’m scrambling to find a couple hours a day worthwhile. There was another friend of mine, a honcho with MACTEC, and got hold of him and said, how are things looking? He said, want to come to work for us? Potentially. So I wound up here with MACTEC. That was in ’93. Franklin: What did MACTEC do? Anderson: They were supposed to be in-house consultants to DOE. Franklin: For? Anderson: The entire Site. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: What eventually it turned into was staff augmentation for DOE. Which wasn’t supposed to be the way it was done, but DOE needed people, and the funding process was not giving them what they needed to hire to directly. So they used MACTEC. So, yeah, worked that for a couple years. Franklin: And what did you do there? Anderson: Basically, anything I was told to do. But a lot of document reviews of things produced by the contractor. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I did, well, at one time or another—another little corporate story here—I was on a team that was reviewing the safety analysis for a new tank farm. They made a flat-out statement that they’d covered all the safety aspects. And I said, bullshit? You don’t ever use absolutes like that. Because there’s always going to be something you didn’t think of. Oh, no, they thought of everything. I said, well, let me tell you something you probably haven’t thought of. You allow pickup trucks to drive out in the Tank Farm, right? Yeah. You have risers down to the tank, the tank’s under a slight vacuum. So there’s air leakage in through the riser that keeps the contamination from spreading. Yeah. I said, trucks—vehicles have been known to develop gasoline leaks. So now you have a pickup out in the Tank Farm, parked over a riser, leaking gasoline, fumes are being drawn into the tank. How long does it take before you have a flammable mixture in the tank? Oh. [LAUGHTER] I said, now—I said, you can do the—talk to maintenance. How often do they have to fix leaky fuel systems? You know, you can come up with some odds on this. Well, then, my part of the thing was done on our review. And I had scolded him for, don’t ever tell me you have covered all the safety things. Okay. Well, they never built the tank farm. They decided they were going to be able to get by with space recovery programs, whatever. And it was a couple years later that I was telling that story to a group of, well, actually I think the AICHE meeting. And this one lady said, you! What? Well, it turned out that they had taken my scenario very seriously and banned trucks from driving out in Tank Farms. So that makes things definitely—well, you need a special permit. Used to be you could just drive in areas that weren’t contaminated. Then you had to have a special permit and fill out all sorts of paperwork to get a truck out in the Tank Farm. She thought I was the cause for all that extra work. [LAUGHTER] Anderson: So anyhow. Franklin: Oh, that’s awesome. So you were kind of like a consultant for Tank Farm? Anderson: Mainly, it was Tank Farms, yeah, but it was whatever was going on that—documents produced by the contractor or oversight of problem/solutions. You know, report back to DOE, how is this going. Franklin: Sure. And then it says here that then you went back to the Vit Plant. Anderson: Yeah, well again, that was—a bit of a segue way. I got a call from San Francisco and said that they—Westinghouse had an RFP out, request-for-proposal for close to a billion dollars in Tank Farm upgrades over ten years. They wanted me to be like a one-man office here to spearhead that as things got underway. And they bumped me up to a Grade 28, you know. Okay, sure, why not? I mean, it wasn’t that I didn’t like working for MACTEC, but this seemed like a great opportunity. So, yeah, I took over and had a little office downtown. Franklin: In San Francisco? Anderson: No, downtown Richland. Franklin: Oh, Richland. Anderson: Yeah. Right there in the Parkway. So then Westinghouse started fudging, and they finally took the RFP off the table and said they’d do it in-house. So now I’m up here. And so they said—and, BNFL had the vitrification contract at that time. Bechtel was seconded to. So they said, you can either roll over to the Vit Plant or you can come back to San Francisco. And I said San Francisco, been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I think I’m good. So I went to work on the Hanford Waste Vitrification. Franklin: And what year was that? Anderson: Phew. Let’s see. Back up here. That would’ve been ’96, ’97. Franklin: Okay, and where was the Vit Plant at, at that time? Anderson: Early design phases. Franklin: Early design phase. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And how long did you stay with the Vit Plant? Anderson: Oh, gee. Basically until I retired. Of course, initially it was BNFL. Got a nice trip over to Sellafield in the UK. And I do love British beer. And the lake country, where Sellafield is, is pretty country, just--. And got to see what they were doing for vitrification. And I’m going, okay, I see a lot of mistakes here, but, well, we learn from our mistakes. Okay. Well, eventually DOE got disgusted with BNFL because the cost kept going up. It’s still going on today. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Costs keep going up. Anyhow, so they basically fired BNFL. So then I went to work for, basically a job shopper here for like six months. Stayed on the job, but not with Bechtel. What was the name of that? Can’t think of the name. It was a big period of time while they rebid contract. And of course Bechtel won, and I’m back working for Bechtel. And so, yeah. Franklin: So how far did the Vit Plant get from when you started to when you retired? Anderson: Well, they’d broken ground. I really don’t recall. I mean, I know that they were working on it, but a lot of it was the structural stuff. Which, from a process point-of-view, I wasn’t involved in. I was still just doing a lot of design, or helping with design for the process part of it. Franklin: What are your views on the current situation of the Vitrification Plant? Anderson: Overdesigned. They’re trying to make it do everything. And they keep changing the rules. And then they’re surprised when the cost goes up. As a friend of mine said, generally, there comes a time in every project when you have to take the engineers out and shoot them, and just build it. And they never got to that stage yet. Franklin: Ah, I see. Makes sense. Anderson: Well, it’s the administrators that need to be taken, anyhow. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So last question, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War and afterwards? Anderson: Oh, gee. Well, it’s very great community. I mean, because overall wages are high, overall education level is high. Schools are good. It’s just a great place to raise a family. In fact, a lot of people stayed here, unhappy with the job, but because it was good for their family, they said, okay, I’m getting a paycheck, it’s good for my family, I’ll hack it. So, yeah, that was—it was just a great place to raise a family. And both my kids are still here. Yeah, my son’s a Kennewick firefighter, and my daughter works for the state, basically overseeing the payments to the people on welfare, basically. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: So, anyhow, yeah. And two grandkids here. One of which—well, I have to brag a little bit. This is off the subject, but my son had been coaching soccer since his daughter was like six or seven years old. Club soccer. So last summer—and she’s now going to be a sophomore—the AD out there County of Benton said we’d like you to be the girls’ soccer coach. He said, okay. Oh, by the way it pays $4,500. He said, if they hadn’t told me that, I’d probably do it for free. Anyhow, so, the year before that, the soccer team won three games. This past fall, the girls were undefeated in the league. Took the SCAC championship, but lost their first game at state. I think they were sort of burned by that time. Anyway, my son then got coach of the year for the league, and my granddaughter was selected as MVP for the league. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Anderson: So, yeah, great place to live. Franklin: So, Ted, is there anything we haven’t touched on that you’d like to talk about today? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: All right, then I think that’s a great place to end, thank you. Anderson: I mean, this could go on for a long time, but— Franklin: Sure, sure. Anderson: But I think you’ve got highlights and— Franklin: Yeah, we’ve got some really great stuff here. Thank you for really illuminating the waste processing history at Hanford. I appreciate it. Anderson: Yeah. Well, and the successive companies, like ARCO, basically, the guy they had leading it here had not been doing well in their primary business, which was petroleum. But now they won a contract here and got a place to stick him. So he didn’t provide strong leadership. That was sort of a—you know, they win the contract and here’s a place to park people. Oh, well. Franklin: Oh, well. Thank you so much, Ted, I really appreciate it. Anderson: My pleasure. <a href="https://youtu.be/LSqz5MdJ4VI">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Tank Farms BC Crib Area 222-S Labs S-X Farm REDOX 200 East 200 West Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1969- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ted Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Chemical engineering Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource Ted Anderson moved to Richland, Washington in 1969 to work on the Hanford Site as a Chemical Engineer. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/11/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b10d9b58437486ee4cc1650b8118b29.JPG ec91cca70202c2f3af686cb3c2b19dc1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Armstrong Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. Are you ready? Dennis Armstrong: Go for it. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Dennis Armstrong on May 24, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Dennis about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Armstrong: Dennis A. Armstrong. A-R-M-S-T-R-O-N-G. D-E-N-N-I-S. Middle initial A. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Okay, great. So, Dennis, how and why did you come to the area to work for Hanford? Armstrong: Well, I thought about what kind of answer it might take to really answer that, and it probably goes clear back to high school days. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: I did something along with four other friends. Went to an open house that the Washington International Guard had in Spokane, and ended up joining the group. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: Got assigned into a aircraft maintenance group, and learned how to like airplanes. At that time, Washington Air Guard was a fighter squadron. Very close-knit group of wonderful people that I was proud to be associated with for six years. Reason that kind of influenced why I came to Hanford is because all through my four-and-a-half years at Washington State University Pullman in mechanical engineering, I had it in my mind that I was going to go to work for somebody making airplanes. And in my senior year as campus interviews were underway, in those times, it was not unusual for almost all the big companies to come to campus to do interviews. Not so nowadays. But at that time, I picked out aircraft companies. And I got some pretty good offers. Know airplanes, know how they work, know how they get put together. And I got even some exceptionally good salary offers. I showed them to my advisor, and he said, Dennis, you’re a pretty independent thinker. Just to tell me you did it, go talk to at least two or three other companies besides aircraft people. So, I go up to look at the campus interview schedule, and I picked out two, three companies, including a scheduled interview from General Electric. Not knowing whether GE made toasters or waffle irons or what, to wherever I was going to be interviewed from, I went in kind of blind, and found out it was a representative from Hanford. Franklin: Ah. Armstrong: It happened that in my work at the Washington Air Guard in the maintenance shops, I enjoyed metalworking, including—well, I was primarily doing sheet metal work and aircraft structure work. And we had a couple nice lathes that I enjoyed working with. Just nothing else, to learn how to work them. And I ended up getting a job at the department of mechanical engineers, two years running, as senior laboratory instructor in the machine shop. So, expanding on that, I did a special senior project on machinability of metals. So that came up in the course of my interview with Doug Tilson, who was the representative from GE. And he says, I’ve got exactly that job right now. I need a candidate for it. We want to hire people into our tech grad program, they called it. And yet I’ll promise you a machining research job, first assignment, if you choose to come with us. So they sent me a letter, and not quite the high salary I had from the aircraft people. But I showed these to my advisor, and he said, that’s a given. Take it. So I went back and it happened that in the dorm that I had lived in, I had a couple friends whose parents had worked at Hanford, so I knew a little teeny bit about it. Never been here. One time, one of them had brought me over to Richland, before I ended up accepting the GE offer. That time—of course, GE was still the predominant employer at Hanford, and I saw nothing of what really going on at Hanford, but I’d learned a little bit about Richland and kind of liked it. And having grown up in Spokane, I thought, why on earth do I want to go to Los Angeles and work for North American Aviation on airplanes, when I’ve got something right close in Washington State? And they offered me a job that was right in a piece of line of work that I had enjoyed, and wrote them a letter and said I’ll take it. And, well, I went through a couple questions, like, tell me more about this machining research job. And they said, well, we looked at your paper and I’ve even shown it to the people doing it, and they would like to have you come, but that’s about all we can tell you. Okay. I showed these papers to my advisor and he says, that’s a given. Take it. Franklin: So, sorry, I’d like to just ask, that’s the second time you’ve said that and I wrote that down because I wanted to explore that further. Why did your advisor feel that that was a given? Armstrong: Oh, he went on to say, I’ve been in the aircraft industry. Very structured engineering. You’re an independent thinker. Get in with some company that’s not quite as structured as the aircraft industry is. And I had no way of knowing other than to listen to him. And then couple that with the fact that here I had an offer close by. Home was still Spokane. And kind of pieced it together and my advisor knew those links and kind of felt that this would be a good placement for me. Franklin: And were you from Spokane originally? Armstrong: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: And that’s how I ended up in the Washington Air Guard in Spokane, because I’d gone to high school in Spokane and wheat farming country south of Spokane. Franklin: Yup. Okay. So describe coming to Hanford. Armstrong: Well, I show up, and here there’s 50 other brand new hires and we all report into the building. I forget the number downtown; it was in the old 700 Area. It was GE new employee processing. I would find out I was the only one that had been already named to an assignment. They had the greases on the skids and I was given a badge and said, tomorrow morning, you’ll report out to this place out at the edge of the Earth called 200 West Area, to a building called 231-Z. I had no clue what that meant. Or even what the assignment was yet. But they described and spent all the rest of the balance of that day in terms of processing me in and getting papers signed and all this stuff that goes with orientation. Next morning, a fellow named Tom Nelson, who was supervisor of metallurgy development, eventually became Battelle, but for General Electric, metallurgy development operation in 231-Z building, he came downtown, picked me up, took me out 231-Z building. And I met a fellow there who I was assigned to to do a project. His name was John Rector. I learned that I was to produce a document on a machinability state of the art of machining plutonium metal. I’d, of course, never heard of plutonium metal before. I got my Top Secret clearance at that time. And they took me over to 234-5 to the production line and I saw what the whole purpose of Hanford was all about, in making parts. At that time, we made weapon pieces here. Not commonly advertised today, but it was not secret then. And still isn’t. But— Franklin: What kinds of weapon pieces were made? Armstrong: The plutonium core for the thermonuclear devices. Franklin: Okay, and so before—how long had Hanford been making weapon pieces? Armstrong: The history goes—of course, you well know from your study of the origin of Hanford—was to make plutonium metal to be sent to Los Alamos for assembly into the Nagasaki weapon. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: They continued to make them at Los Alamos up until like ’49, 1949, at which time this famous 234-5, or now called Plutonium Finishing, that was the name given to the plant later. That was built solely for the purpose of converting plutonium nitrate to metal. And metal—they call them buttons, the product—buttons into cast pieces and machined pieces for the weapon cores. And that started in like 1949, ’50, here at Hanford. And then a few years later, they built a parallel plant at Rocky Flats. Yet I think in the early years, best I knew, Hanford made three-quarters of the production, and Rocky Flats a little less than a quarter. Still Los Alamos made a few, but the stockpile was primarily made at Hanford. And then the balance started shifting a little more to Rocky Flats, until mid-‘60s when all the production went to Rocky Flats. Well, anyway, back to my pathway. Here I was, being told to learn all there is to know and put it down in a document on machining plutonium metal. And they had had a fella out from General Electric Schenectady who was a machining expert, and he had just left to go back to GE. And he was concentrating on traditional big production, like tooling forces and horsepower to make cuts. I walked through the production line, and they wanted emphasis on accuracy. Not what the program was gearing toward. They wanted emphasis on surface finish. And I turned around the program being done by metallurgy research people, and ended up putting out a document on how to get the finest surface finish we can be able to do with the lathes they had in 234-5 Building, which happened to be some of the finest that existed in the world. So, I wrote that document. It happens to still be classified. I’ll never see it again. Yeah, that leads me to a thought on classifications at Hanford. I didn’t understand it at the time, but now I do. I used to think weapon design was the big secret; it really wasn’t. It happened that Hanford production rate was the big secret, and manufacturing technology was right behind it. So, we physically protected manufacturing technology higher than the design of the devices. Which is what you see nowadays in how close is Iran to making one? And you can betcha they’re farther ahead than our politicians think they are. Anyway, enough said. I put in four months writing that document, got published, and a fella, name of Les Brecke, who ran the production line in 234-5, invited me to come over and spend an assignment there. Still on the GE tech grad program. I had a friend that had wanted me to come and spend an assignment with the K Reactor design group, too. And I thought, well, I’ve been in one thing. I think I’ll take the K Reactor design group. And I did that. Down 762 Building, through the winter, so I didn’t have to go out to Hanford during the winter that first year. And I participated in designing a flexible horizontal control rod for the K Reactors. Was eventually fabricated and put in. At that time, operating problems with the reactors was secret. You actually got one of these flexible rods in your inventory at the museum backup storeroom. And I’ve got one of the three whole pieces of bonded carbide to go in it, because I ended up making those pieces later. I’ll get to that in a second. That was a fun assignment in terms of really designing a product and getting it approved and getting through design approval from the rather rigorous design approval process. So then I talked to Les Brecke again and said, do you still want me? And he said, absolutely, I’ll take you any time you can get here. And I ended up as my third assignment, then, in the GE tech grad program of going to production line at 234-5 Building. Two—oh, go ahead. Franklin: Sorry, I just—for those that may not be—including sometimes myself—who may not be well-versed in the numbering system— Armstrong: Oh, that. Franklin: What is—so earlier you said 231-Z and that— Armstrong: 231-Z was an original building that DuPont built to process the plutonium nitrate. And when that was moved over to the PUREX and then 234-5, which I’ll describe a little more later, the 231 Building was turned into a metallurgy development laboratory. And that eventually became a branch of Battelle when GE diversified. Franklin: And so 234-5, does that have a more common name? Armstrong: Well, the more common name is Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: Okay, so that is the PFP. Armstrong: PFP. Yeah, that name, interestingly, wasn’t coined until after the weapons mission. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: The original, it was just called 234-5 or Dash-5 or Z Plant. Never had a word name associated with it. It held a special clearance to even get in the door, you had to have—it was kind of a soft top secret clearance, called a blue tag clearance. You got a model of one of these badges there in your museum. Today, no one carries that clearance anymore, but that’s what it was, was access to weapon data processing. Franklin: Okay, my last question, what year did you come to Hanford? Armstrong: Oh! 1963. June of ’63. Franklin: You came in 1963. Armstrong: Yes. Franklin: Okay, I just wanted to establish that. Armstrong: And that was, I guess going clear back to the beginning of the story, when I joined the Air Guard when I was still in high school, that was like the 1958 timeframe, see? So all through my WSU timeframe, I was in the Air Guard, thinking of going to work for aircraft people and it wasn’t until ’62 or so that I started in the interview process to eventually take permanent employment. And then the pathway that I described, the interview from the General Electric Company here. It turned out to be here, but I didn’t know it at the time. Franklin: Gotcha, okay. Armstrong: So here I am, now, in the, it was called weapons manufacturing operation. Franklin: And this was with Les— Armstrong: With General Electric Company. With Les Brecke. Franklin: With Les Brecke, okay. Armstrong: So we did two things. We were the receiver of the plutonium button, which is the finished plutonium chunk coming from a simple term called the button line, which is part of the production in this Z Plant, or 234-5 Building, across the wall into the machining. Or first, casting. We casted this. It’s a metal just like you can cast and pour any other—lead, brass, bronze, iron. The process is quite similar. Casted into a shape, machine it to a final product, goes through inspection and package it and send it to the assembly plant. Franklin: And where was the assembly plant? Armstrong: They went first to Rocky Flats in Denver, and then down to Pantex in Texas where the final assemblies were all put together. Franklin: Right, right. Okay and so—sorry, go ahead. Armstrong: My job—the name of the group was called weapons fabrication, and my job was to overview the machining. They had just bought the set of very fine lathes that didn’t quite work as good as they thought they should. First job was figure out why. It was a kind of a combination of electronics problem and hydraulics problem that I think I solved because we made them work. So through ’63, ’64, ’65, I was in charge of those lathes pumping out parts that went to inspection. And then eventually shipped. I enjoyed it. I really did. I didn’t realize how good a job it was until it was all over. And one of the saddest things I had to do in the course of my career, we had set—we were setting with literally a five-year top secret plan of production, how many parts we were going to make every month for five years. And it went to zero overnight. Franklin: Mm. Why was that? Armstrong: : Political. Politics. Franklin: What year—when was that? Armstrong: Mid-’65, late-’65. I can’t tell you the politics of it. But the idea was save some money by shifting all the production and casting and machining over to Rocky Flats. Close down Hanford production. So that hit the newspaper and we were in one of the first major cutbacks at Hanford. It happened that the person I’d worked with in 231 Building, John Rector, had a hobby doing manufacturing in his basement. Of course, it wasn’t but the first weekend I was over to house, seeing what he was doing. He was doing stuff in his basement that was beyond a lot of capability of big production shops. He came to me and said, we’re out of a job. I was promised a position in the maintenance group. I didn’t quite know how I wanted to do that. I’m sure I could’ve negotiated something into design engineering. But John said, been my plan someday to start a full-time business. And if you want to partner with me, let’s do it. We did, and we operated out of his basement for three or four months while we built Western Sintering Company. It’s over on Stevens Drive, still running today. So I turned in my resignation to GE and we started Western Sintering Company. I enjoyed it. I truthfully enjoyed the independence of a small business for seven years. I’m still good friends with the people that run it today, including the family. I left under good pretense. And the reason I left was Atlantic Richfield, the employment relations fella named Bill Watson came to me and said, we need an engineering manager for East Area/West Area. Oh. Well, you’ve been selected to be the first offer. Oh, interesting. I’d never mailed out a resume or anything. I was selected by some friends, that when the opening was there, they scrubbed a bunch of names and came to me and said, the job is yours if you want it. And I took it. So I became the engineering manager of East Area and West Area, plant engineering. Franklin: What was so attractive about the job that you wanted it? Armstrong: Working with people. I think I saw this particularly in the production line in 234-5 Building. I was frequently being the fabrication engineer of a production operation where we had rotating shifts with five different supervisors. I was the guy that ended up as shift relief now and then. We had the finest operators that existed at Hanford. They were all hand-selected, good people. And I enjoyed working with them. They were all good to work with. So I thought, here I got a chance to work with engineers. At first I was put into a group that had about eight engineers. And then I took over from Walt Engels, who had chosen to retire under the Atlantic Richfield shingle, and took over a larger group of close to 75 people, including planning engineering for each of their established operating plants. At that time, we were still running PUREX and B Plant and 234-5. You asked about the Plutonium Finishing name to Z Plant, and that was done as kind of a last ditch, after our weapons mission was done. Rename the plant, try to get some other business here. And we did several projects. We did a couple plutonium fabrication test ingots for the Navy. And we did some plutonium heat source things for NASA. And we took in half a dozen jobs in that plant. We even made the first of the sabot units for the Army, the ones they fired over in Iraq. Those happen to have been secret when we made them. But then later they come out, the uranium sabot units for the artillery shells for tank cannons. Anyway, that was the approach to naming it Plutonium Finishing, as advertising capability out to the world that we could handle plutonium. It really was no other capability. But the bottom line, there wasn’t very many people who wanted to go out and hire that kind of work done, either. Franklin: Right, especially with the Cold War being over. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: It wasn’t until five or six years later that the plutonium uranium mixed oxide fast reactor fuels business came into play. Otherwise that would’ve been a natural for takeover by that building. But it wasn’t understood then. So, at Western Sintering, like I say, I enjoyed it. We made our own machinery. Franklin: And what did you primarily make? Armstrong: Small mechanical parts, cold compaction of metal powders into shape. And the sintering process is a furnace to diffusion bond the cold compacted metal powders into a finished structural piece. In terms of things common folk think of, little gears, little bushings, little bearings, little—and I say little because we were somewhat limited by size. The bigger the part, the bigger the press. We had made our own up to 200 ton, and that could make a part of about two-to-three square inches of surface area. Otherwise, little parts can make them pretty fast on the small ten-ton press. We actually made some ten-ton presses for the nuclear fuels industry. Primarily Westinghouse and General Electric and even Areva out here. Back then, they were Jersey Nuclear. And we sold 34 of those things around the world, including four of them to India, and two of them up to Canada. Pretty well established a name in terms of a good operating machine for that particular industry. As I say, Atlantic Richfield came to me and offered me the job of plant engineering manager, which I took. At that time, the B Plant fuels—excuse me, the strontium cesium encapsulation plant was just in final design stage and not working very good. It happened that Les Brecke had been assigned over to that building, and here I was, previous good stand with him, and suddenly I’m in charge of making his equipment that didn’t work work again. Which we did do, as a group, a team. Ended up packaging the whole inventory of strontium cesium capsules that’s now in the reservoir. It’s been sitting there for 50 years now. 40 years. Anyway, however. So, at that time, Atlantic Richfield was pretty good a contractor to work for. I’d even rank Atlantic Richfield a little higher than General Electric in terms of wanting the people to understand they worked for Atlantic Richfield. Had good relations there. If they’d have stayed a contractor, I’d probably have stayed there. It happened that they chose ten years as the contract limit, and Rockwell, new contractor, and couple things happened at Rockwell outside of Hanford. The B-1 bomber went down the tube when Jimmy Carter canceled the project. And another parent company they had, called Atomics International was doing reactor research to eventually build some gas-cooled reactors. That was pretty much down the tube. So Rockwell sat there with two sources of their own people. They brought in quite a few to Hanford. And I was told that my job would be replaced by one of them. And I could go to project management, which I did. And I didn’t care for the project management, because I enjoyed the design work, and particularly the kind of design work we were doing which was plant troubleshooting. Every week we’d have a plant managers’ meeting of all the different site plants. Whoever’s in trouble, I could solve it and—I could put my team onto it and solve it. That’s the way we were set up to do it. And I laugh at the current problem of the PUREX tunnel collapsing, because I had exactly the same issue happen back in the ‘70s. It happened that there were a bunch of low level waste disposal units called cribs. There were stacked Douglas fir timber underground, meant to be just a big void space to send low level liquid waste. People out monitoring the desert where these cribs were came back with a report over the weekend that one of these cribs had collapsed, not far from the story of the PUREX tunnel last week. And so I’m at the plant managers’ meeting and this is the big flap for the week, why did this happen and what are we going to do about it? So I came back and put one of my good civil engineers on it. He came back in about ten minutes and said, good news and bad news. Good news, I know why, and bad news, every one of them’s going to collapse. Oh, tell me more. Well, these were stacked Douglas fir timber. You’ve got about 40 years on untreated timber and then it’s going to be weak enough to rot away and they’ll collapse. Okay, what are we going to do about it? Well, we’re going to fill up the holes. So that was our carryover to the plant manager. So we eventually came up with the process to slurry up sand and pump it down every one of these holes and we eventually breached some of them. Problem was, you see, the rodents would get down into a hole and then they’d eat the strontium salts that were in this low level waste. They’d come up and the rabbits would eat the rodents, and then the coyotes would eat the rabbits, and then you’d have hot spots around the desert. And that was bad news. So we ended up vacuuming the desert. That was a legend to live down. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, I thought about the PUREX tunnel, because I knew how that one was made. And I thought, surely, those timbers are rotted away. And that’s exactly the same story. The only answer was fill it with sand. And then what are you going to do about it? Of course, plan that’s somewhat out in the newspaper is fill them with slurry and probably a grout mix. Franklin: Well, it’s all—the PUREX tunnel it’s all solid waste, right? Armstrong: No, there’s no waste in there at all. Franklin: Or it’s contaminated solid objects. Armstrong: That’s right, that’s a good way to put it. The object of the design at PUREX Plant, in the earlier fuel separation plant, REDOX, T Plant, B Plant, whenever a failed big vessel or big pump would have to be disposed of, they’d put it on a railcar and drag it out to near the desert, drag it out to the burial ground and bury it. Actually time consuming plus potential for accidents and exposure. So the idea at PUREX Plant was build a tunnel at the head end of the plant. And then it got a failed pump, failed tank, you buy an old railroad car that’s junk, put the pump on it, and send it down this railroad tunnel for somebody to worry about someday. There’s no waste in there, other than whatever residual was on the contaminated equipment. But there still could be some pretty high level stuff. Franklin: Because of what it— Armstrong: What it was handling, sure. Franklin: But no solid—but no actual— Armstrong: No actual waste like we think of waste in the waste tanks, or waste like the strontium cesium capsules in B Plant. Franklin: Did you see the infographic that Washington State Department of Ecology had put out of the tunnels? And it had the railcars, but inside the railcars was a green goo? Armstrong: I didn’t see that. Probably wouldn’t have got impressed with it. I personally don’t like the state being a regulator. I think it should’ve been kept as a federal agency. But that’s my own opinion that they wouldn’t care for today. I don’t think the state’s got any business being in the business. Enough said. I won’t—that’s not a popular area. Franklin: That’s good. Armstrong: Ha! You can edit that out. Franklin: Well, I mean, you know, it’s just an opinion. So you had worked on these cribs and filled them up with— Armstrong: A slurry of sand. Franklin: Were these constructed similarly— Armstrong: No. Franklin: --to the PUREX tunnel? Armstrong: They were a hole in the ground with—I forget what they were, like, 20-foot long timbers stacked just to make a big void space, and then a roof over the top and six, eight foot of dirt on top of it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: The whole idea was to get a big void space down underground to pump low level liquid waste. But over years of pumping low level waste in, it accumulates to high level waste, and that’s why it was bad to have the rodents down in there eating these salts. Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: So, anyway, with Rockwell coming in, and me going to project management, I had another group of people come to me, namely the Washington Public Power, we would like you to come with us. We’re building five nuclear power plants. And I said, well, I’ll be there. And so I took a job in project management of what was called the equipment qualification, namely to prove everything in the reactor was going to—everything safety-related was really going to work during every credible accident. We had about 20,000 electrical mechanical pieces of equipment that we had to have definitive proof it could stand an accident scenario. So, I’m still involved in Hanford and watching it, but yet direct employment left when I left Rockwell. Franklin: Okay. But still obviously related. Armstrong: Well, still nuclear power plant, as opposed to waste management area. Or production in the early years. Franklin: And how long were you with WPPSS? Armstrong: 18 years. Franklin: Okay. So you kind of saw, then, the full—the rise and fall, I guess one can say. Armstrong: Oh, yeah, in fact, even in organizational dynamics, this was a tough time. Organization staging for—I guess if you think of plant construction, you need one craft for some time, or one set of engineers for some period, and another set of engineers for another period. We had organizations that were struggling with trying to keep their mission alive. When Don Major, who was our general manager then, was trying his best to say, this organization’s got to phase down, because this one’s phasing up to finish the plant. But the thing that I saw my pathway pretty clear—I was kind of middle management through my whole career path, and here middle management at Washington Public Power Supply System, we could see a clear pathway to make that plant work. Something bothers me about the Vit Plant. People working on it aren’t going to see it work in the lifetime of the people working on it. That’s why I don’t like the idea of the state being involved in it. That should’ve been a small demonstration plant; could’ve been finished five years ago and working. If it worked good, we’d build two, three more of them. Franklin: Mm. Instead of building one— Armstrong: State kept insisting it’s got to be so big that once we turn it on, we’ll run all the waste through it and be done. They ended up building it so big that they couldn’t control the design process and still don’t know when it’s going to run. May never run. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: There are other ideas on what to do with waste. Some of them still being explored to maybe speed it up. But I—Savannah River has a waste evaporator and a waste melter. The titanium industry’s had titanium vacuum melters for years. We could’ve made one here. Franklin: Savannah River’s also partway through their vitrification process. But there, though, it’s easier because the chemical—they only used one—they used less chemical separations processes than we did. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So they have much less complicated— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: --waste. Armstrong: I understand that, too. You know, this is one of the things that even took me a long time to digest when I had plant engineering group over the Tank Farms and PUREX and REDOX and those, that each one put out a different product in terms of the waste composition. The process to handle it was somewhat different. But even in the years I was there, we were running the T Evaporator and the S Evaporator, and then the A Evaporator was built just after I left. They were all one mission: take the waste out of the tanks. It was done before I got there to take all the strontium and cesium out. That was done very quietly and successfully. So getting stuff out of the tanks was not a big deal. They knew how to do it. And suddenly it’s got to be reinvented. Even running the S Evaporator and T Evaporator, they were different processes, but we took a lot of water out and made a lot of space in the tanks. Some of them, they gained a little too much space and they had to put water back in to cool it down. But that’s part of the learning process. Franklin: It was meant that liquid waste would go in the tanks, right? So now that it’s been largely solidified, doesn’t that make it harder to access the waste via the existing pipes— Armstrong: Well, it sure does. Franklin: --liquid material— Armstrong: It sure does. In the first campaign of—effectively what was in there was liquids, yet a lot of stuff had settled out over the years. As they were extracting the product out of the tanks, they had some kind of pumps to get the liquid out and then some devices they called sluicers which would spray the tank bottoms, loosen up stuff so they could slurry it up and pump it on into B Plant so they could process. Still they cleaned the tanks out tolerably well. Yet the evaporator process included a type of pump called a salt well that we made in my plant engineering group, where we would literally put a well casing not far from what you see out in the desert for farming—put a well casing down in the tank so you could sift away from the salt product and get the liquid back out and send it to the evaporators. So every one of the tanks went through the salt well campaign of extracting liquids to try to get it solid. So this leaves a little different product to get out of there now. At that time, the idea was remote shovels and stuff like that to dig it out. That, I think was demonstrated doable. Yet concurrently, we had almost the same game that they got now. I’d get a call over the weekend, this tank’s potential leaker just got a high drywell indication, what should we do? And we’d come up with a plan to route piping and pump it over to another tank. And we think that one’s good so we’ll try that one for a while. Yeah, that one seems to be holding it. And then we had a big master chart—this was before computers could take care of things to count for you—we had a big chart of which tanks were suspected leakers, known leakers, possible leakers, and three or four other categories of maybe they’re okay or maybe not. We got space here but not there. [LAUGHTER] Same game that you read about in the paper today. But a little different product to have to handle, I do admit that. My own desires, and yet I was current plant operations/plant engineering, and Don Woodrich, in another group was long-range planning, what are we going to do with this stuff eventually? At that time it was dig it out, put it in casks and take it someplace. No one wanted it. Franklin: That’s a hard sell. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: What years was that? Armstrong: That was in the mid-‘70s. Because I left Rockwell. Rockwell came in in, I guess I’m going to say, the early ‘80s. That’s when I left and went to Washington Public Power. Franklin: How—so you were with them, with Washington Public Power, kind of until its ending— Armstrong: Well, through—I actually got caught in layoff. They wanted a headcount and they wanted dollars, and we now the four plants were put in first a construction delay and eventually a termination. It was clear that we had too many people. And the general manager had had a stroke and they hired a new guy. He come in and said, get me a list of the high dollar people in engineering, because we’re going to contract out a lot of this business. I was one of the higher paid engineers or managers, and I got hit with a layoff in the mid-‘90s. Franklin: So what did you do after leaving WPPSS? Armstrong: Retired. [LAUGHTER] Armstrong: I chose it to be an early retirement. And I’ve been active all along in the leadership of American Society of Mechanical Engineers. So I spent a lot of time there; still do. Franklin: Great. Let’s see here. You’ve answered a lot of my questions, but I have a few more. What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Armstrong: Oh, early years, like I mentioned, being selected to go into the weapons production group. That wasn’t a group you got into very easily. The best operators and the best supervisors that existed at Hanford. We had a final mission: make parts, put them in a box and ship them. I worked there for over four years for Les Brecke, who was a tough one to work for. Never missed a single shipment. Franklin: Wow. And what about the later years? Armstrong: Atlantic Richfield years, same story. I had a wonderful group of people. I had five subsections in my plant engineer group, specifically one for each plant. But I had them all structured so if they knew I was in some trouble someplace with whatever it be, I could draw from one group and put it into another group to get through a complicated problem. And we had some issues with evaporators and with—the Tank Farms were a constant headache. Even PUREX, when they started to shut it down and then ramp it up for what was to be the last run, I somehow—the production manager’s name was a fella named Chuck Malady, and I ended up being his ghostwriter for letters that went to, it was Energy Research and Development Administration, now DOE. I wrote two letters from the president of Atlantic Richfield to DOE, then ERDA: please, let us run PUREX one more time. We’ll be done with that N Reactor fuel forever. Twice the answer came back, no, can’t do it. Please don’t ask again, because Jimmy Carter wants no more waste in the waste tanks. Instead, they let the fuel rot away in K Reactor basins. We were campaigning, let us run PUREX. We could’ve done it and been done with it. It would not have added that much waste. But that was the decision made at the presidential level. It probably cost this country a hundred billion dollars, and we’re still not willing to admit it. They still haven’t got the mess cleaned up. We had PUREX ready to go to do it. Franklin: Right, right. Interesting. Thank you. What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I guess, for example, were you around for President Kennedy’s visit? Armstrong: Yeah, in fact—[LAUGHTER] it’s kind of comical because I was working in the production line, and the message that came out was essential operations must continue, but non-essential people will be released to go to President Kennedy’s visit. And there’ll be buses to bus you down there. Les Brecke had maintained we were essential, so we weren’t going to go. And then he had a change of heart the last day, said, well, I want to keep my operators busy, but Armstrong and two or three others, you can get on the bus and go. So I was way back in the last row with the last bus that came in. I watched from way back, afar. It was fun to see it. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember President Nixon’s visit? Armstrong: Oh, I do, but I actually didn’t—I wasn’t here. I was traveling someplace. So I didn’t get in on the festivities. Franklin: Any other major events in Tri-Cities history, plant shutdowns, startups, that kind of stand out to you? Armstrong: Well, certainly the contractor changes. Even one of the comical parts with General Electric, I worked directly for this Les Brecke, and he had a rather seriously assembled dossier on every one of his people. I forget who it was that came out, it might have been George Saylor from General Electric, who was high up in the employee relations group. He says, your secretary tells us you’re not going to release your files. You must turn them in! That’s GE property. That’s not your property. Everyone will start with an empty folder when Atlantic Richfield comes in. Actually, it wasn’t Atlantic Richfield; it was an interim company called Isochem, who was a rather short-lived vendor. They were supposed to build an isotope separations plant. Never did. And then Atlantic Richfield got that contract assigned to them. Interesting style then. But anyway, bottom line is, that was kind of a comical thing. I sat out on the outside of the row and then George Saylor comes out. I was outside of his office. My office was from here to the wall from his, and I could hear him arguing, you must release your employee files because those are GE property. Not yours. Well, he eventually had to. [LAUGHTER] So we started with an empty binder on everyone. But I think he kept a few things out of there. But that was kind of an interesting thing. Another fun one that happened, still with Les Brecke—I mentioned I’d been active all along in ASME in local and national activities. Well, it happened that another fella in 234-5 Building came to me and said, hey, I see you just moved to town. Would you help us with our local section meetings? I said, oh, yeah, sure. What do you want me to do? Well, here’s ten names. You call these ten members and remind them of our next meeting. I can do that. So I put the list in my drawer and come a week before the meeting, I pull it out and start calling people. Get down about four names, and there was a boss’s boss’s boss on the list. Me, little guy on the totem pole, going to call him? I’ll skip his name. And then I call the rest and then I put the list back in my drawer. Next day, I said, hey, I promised Marv I’d call these people. I guess I’ll do it. So I called him up. He answers the phone himself. Hugh Warren here. Oh! I wanted to remind you of our ASME meeting coming up this week. Oh, yeah! I got that notice. I’m going to be there; put me down. And he remained a lifelong friend, forever. Franklin: Wow. Armstrong: And the comical thing that happened is, he says, where do you work? I said, 234-5 work. I work for Les Brecke. Oh, I’m coming down there this afternoon; I’ll stop by and say hello. So, my office door was within viewing door of Les Brecke’s office door. And in comes boss’s boss’s boss, said hello to me and we talked a few minutes and he left. Pssht! Brecke comes out, what was Warren doing down here? [LAUGHTER] Armstrong: Oh, he just popped in to say hello. Enough said, anyway. It was just kind of a comical event. There’s probably hundreds of examples like that through the years. Like I say, when I had the plant engineering group, I had wonderful people working for me. Some of them unfortunately were older than I was and we read about one every weekend now. They’re passing away. Franklin: Yeah, that’s true. What was it like living in Richland—so you would’ve moved here after Richland had become privatized. What was it like living in Richland in that area of the Cold War in the ‘60s and ‘70s? Armstrong: I can’t say that there was anything spectacular. Downtown—well, I had an apartment when I moved in to Richland across from the old Kadlec Hospital. It was one block to what was called 700 Area. They were just building the Federal Building and knocking down all the old Federal Building offices. So I had one—that K Reactor design group assignment was in 762 Building, which I’d walk half a block from my apartment into the gate on the north end of the 700 Area and walked two buildings to my—I didn’t know much about what else was going on down there, other than that it was most of design engineering for the whole site. I was specific to the K Reactor and we were in one building. You talked about Kennedy; even going back to high—excuse me, college, I had an interesting experience with him. I lived in a dormitory the first couple years. And I guess it must’ve been like 1959 or ’60, it was a Saturday, and I was on phone duty. We had one phone come in to the dorm. You’d answer it and then call a room of somebody. Well, they were holding what they called a mock political convention. I wasn’t going to go to it, but in comes this call from somebody. Hey, we’re the State of Massachusetts and we got a big deal guy here, and he’s senator, and we’ve only got two people to represent our state. Send people over here! So I could put out a message on the public announcement through the whole dorm, and then my shift was coming to the end. I decided—we gathered three or four other people and we went over to the gymnasium to be part of the Massachusetts convention for this political convention. The famous senator was John Kennedy. We sat around, the eight of us, around the room—around the circle. Oh, thank you so much for you folks participating in this important political activity. He signed my program. And did I save it? No. Franklin: So he was actually at WSU? Armstrong: Yeah! Franklin: Wow, I didn’t know that. Armstrong: In fact, I think the yearbook that year has got his picture and I’m in the shadow in the background of it or something. But I didn’t save that program that had his signature on it. He signed them all. So then, years later, he’s president, and I’m in 762 Building in the K Reactor design group. Right next to my office was the resident office of the FBI. So, I probably knew it, among the first three or four at Hanford that Kennedy had been shot. Because they came over and—we knew the FBI guys, and they knew us. I could stand in their doorway and listen to their radio chatter. Of course, we assembled in the hallway to try and learn what was happening from the FBI chatter coming in on the radio. It was a whole story that was just emerging on the national news. So kind of a close couple paths crossings there. Franklin: Yeah. That’s really interesting. Thank you. I think that might be the most detailed—one of the more detailed Kennedy visit stories I’ve ever got, you know, from an interview. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So, I guess, in closing— Armstrong: In fact, the neighbor down the street from me was a fellow named Swede Holmquist who was safety director for all of Hanford under DuPont, GE, appointed by Matthias to be safety director. Franklin: Oh, wow. Armstrong: He brought home a lot of stuff when he retired, which I have some of it now. Which you’ll get someday. But meantime, I’m going to enjoy it. Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: Including the press release notebook on the Kennedy visit. Franklin: Oh, wow. Armstrong: Thick notebook. Franklin: Wow. So in closing, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Armstrong: Well, it was serious business. And I took it that way. I had very high security clearance. I took it serious. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to students in the university environments. This is my advice to them. If you get involved in either corporate security activity or government security activity, take it serious. I did. And there’s stuff I couldn’t tell you today that I was involved in. Mostly, interestingly enough, on manufacturing technology. One time the highest level security thing we had at Hanford was production rate. You can read about it in the paper right now how many devices we made. I wouldn’t have dared told you that in the ‘60s. Franklin: Sure, but that manufacturing technology, though, is still very much— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Because of the danger of nations making-- Armstrong: Yeah, people picking up on how to do it. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Armstrong: And even though what we did 50 years ago was probably different than what they do today. I was down at the University of Nevada Las Vegas a month ago, and I met a fella that was doing the laser work on the stockpile proof-of-reliability. He knew where I’d come from. I’d been through the whole test site. They took that job serious, too. But there’s been more released on what they did than ever will be released on what Hanford did. And yet even—I meet people around the country, everybody knows about Oak Ridge. Not very many people know what happened at Hanford. And I think it’s an important thing to tell, and this is why I’m excited about seeing the B Reactor elevated. And I’d go so far as to include the other facilities. T Plant’s an important part of the whole story. Franklin: Oh, sure. I mean, the fuel doesn’t pop out of B Reactor and then just go to Los Alamos. Armstrong: In fact, when I was plant engineering manager, one thing Rockwell did when they first came to town—there were seven people, and I’ve got a picture of all seven of them, that had like 35 years of total experience going back to DuPont. They were all given a Rockwell 35-year gold watch. Two of them worked for my group. One of them was kind of a simple story; he worked at Remington—excuse me, DuPont at Salt Lake, came up to Hanford. The other had an amazing story. I held a staff meeting when I gave out these two watches to the people. Had all my people and anybody else who wanted to come. And I said, Max Yeats, I want you to—he did not know what I was going to do. I said, I want you to tell us all where you were on a certain date in 1942 or ’43, like that. I didn’t know you knew that date. Well, I know the whole story, and you’re going to tell us right now, what happened that day and forth. Well, I haven’t talked about that much. Well, you can tell it, or I’ll tell it, because I know it. And he said, okay. I went to work for Remington Arms in Kansas City. I was in charge of tooling. Machinist background, mechanical engineering graduate. One day I was called in to the boss’s office, and told I was selected for a special corporate assignment. They knew nothing about it, I was supposed to take it. What do you want to do? And he said, I don’t know, I guess I’ll take it. What would you do, you were a kid out of school, worked for six months for DuPont? So he said, here’s an envelope; open it when you get home. You’re off now. Go home. Got home, told his wife—new wife, opened the envelope: Report to Dr. Do, University of Chicago in two days. Dr. Do was code name for Fermi. He went into Fermi’s office and said, go to that meeting room, get some other people, we’ll come in and talk. He learned the whole story of what was going to happen. And his mission in being taken in to Chicago was he worked on making the fuel for the Chicago Pile. And then there were six of them sent from Chicago to Hanford, and he was project manager on construction of B Plant. Not the reactor, but the fuel separations plant. And his whole career, he stayed as this senior, strong, individual contributor, including working for me, 40 years later. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite a story. Armstrong: And that’s never documented anyplace. Franklin: Yeah, the plants really seem to suffer from a lack of documentation and just awareness. The reactors get all of the— Armstrong: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, he’d have been a wonderful person to have in your interview system, see? So I can tell the story about him now. All that came out as a result of Rockwell saying, we want to do something for the old-timers that are here. And they selected, it happened that they had some gold watches that said Rockwell on them, and they had them all in a—I gave the watches out at my own staff meeting, but then later they all assembled in the famous PUREX conference room for a group picture. And I went with them on that. I’ve got a copy of that picture with the seven people. Franklin: That’s really neat. Well, Dennis, thank you so much. It’s been a really great interview. Armstrong: Well, I could probably talk for an hour and two hours. I’m getting hoarse here, but I enjoy the history. I think you know that Don Sorenson and I both kind of partner in researching what we can. He’s two lightyears ahead of me and yet I’ve got stuff he’d enjoy having. I kind of got hooked on it when I cleaned out Swede Holmquist’s house. I wish I’d’ve saved more, but unfortunately, he’d brought home boxes full of historical papers, put them in his basement under a window where the sprinklers were running, and I opened up these boxes and they were all moldy. I didn’t want to kill myself. Including a big, thick white binder on the collapse of the second PUREX tunnel. I opened up, looked at the pictures and threw it in the dumpster. And probably that was the only one that existed. Yet that report might be in the library someplace. But it’s so hard to find stuff in the library. Don’s got access to more pictures. He has thousands of pictures. And his son collects pictures of Richland. Kind of an interesting tie. Franklin: Yeah, his Vintage Tri-Cities Facebook was just in the paper the other day. He likes a lot of our Facebook posts. That’s when I first found out about him. Armstrong: Yeah. Yet I’ve got some safety plaques that—I’ve got one 1944 from the National Safety Council to Hanford, 1944. And I’ve got 1945. I’ve got three bronze plaques that Holmquist lugged home. And I’ve got one that Kennedy gave the Site. In fact, have you been to the Nevada Test Site Museum? Franklin: I have not. Armstrong: Worthwhile going and see what they’ve done there. I’ll sign your travel authorization if you want to go. It won’t mean much when the dollars come, but. I’ve been there a number of times. In fact, I went again when I was—the student conference I put on in the University of Nevada. When the afternoon was quiet, I’d go over to the museum. Well, on an earlier visit, I’m standing inside the library. They’ve got a public reading room in addition to the museum tour. They’ve got this plaque hanging there, John F. Kennedy presents to the Atomic Energy Commission Sites. Docent walks up to me and says, isn’t that neat? You ever seen one of those? I said, yeah, I’ve got one hanging just like it in my room! Oh, you do? [LAUGHTER] I suspect it was a case where one had been given to each site. So probably half a dozen of those exist; I might have one of two that remain. I don’t know if Oak Ridge’s still exist. But these bronze ones, you’ll get them someday. In the meantime, I offered to give Connie a couple of them once. And I said, only one condition: you hang it in the museum. If it’s going to go in a filing cabinet, you can’t have it. And as you’re aware, museums don’t take things with conditions. Franklin: That’s true. Armstrong: Unless it’s a loan to special purpose. So it’s still hanging in my room. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, Dennis, if there’s other—if you think of things later on that you want to talk about, we’d be happy to schedule another interview with you. Armstrong: Or my experience might even be more broad than a lot of other folks. So if you get into an area where you want to amplify something, I’m on recall. I’m happy to do it for you. Because I think preserving the history is critical to the good work that so many thousands of people did at Hanford. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Paul Tibbetts and probably half a dozen of the crew with the first missions. Every one of them said the same story. People ask them, would you do it again? And the answer is, we were young Army officers, we were described a problem, we saluted and we did it. It wasn’t our position to challenge it. I kind of feel the same way, having been involved in production at Hanford. Didn’t bother me I participated in making many thousands of warheads. We only used a few of them, and those are the ones that I know got shot down in Nevada. And I learned later which ones got shot, because in my last year or so I was by I guess seniority, I was declared to be the authorized shipper of the final product out of Hanford. So every one of the shipments, including— I remember one time, the couriers would show up at the backdoor at 234-5. We’re here to take today’s shipment. Okay, sign here. And you got them. So they got sent down to Rocky Flats on a railroad car. It had a code name, Redwood car. It was always kind of parked up in the West Area shop area. Nobody knew what it was, unless you knew what it was. It was a US Mail car. It was painted just, US Mail No entry. I said to one of the couriers, hey, I want to see the inside of your railcar. Oh, yeah, come on up! No problem. Oh! I’ll be up. He took off with the load, and I went and got a car and took off. I got to be in the vault there that was normally off-limits to GE people. They closed the door and a guy sitting at each end of it with a machine gun, and off they went to Rocky Flats on a railcar. So anyway, those are fun little stories. I could probably have a thousand more. But I had fun during my career and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. I really would. Franklin: Good. Well, Dennis, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Armstrong: Well, thank you for putting the time into it and the effort. I think it’s a good program. Franklin: Well, good. Thank you. Thank you for contributing. <a href="https://youtu.be/K5g1SgVQMS8">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area 200 West Area 231-Z Building 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Plant K Reactor 762 Building PUREX Z Plant B Plant REDOX T Plant WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) Tank Farms N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1963- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Armstrong Description An account of the resource Dennis Armstrong moved to Richland, Washington in 1963 to work on the Hanford Site as a Mechanical Engineer. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/24/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Spokane (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Mechanical engineering Plutonium industry Plutonium--Metallurgy Nuclear industry Nuclear weapons industry Nuclear weapons plants Nuclear power plants Radioactive waste disposal https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ed21d8bfe16578201b1dbf9d81c15f9.jpg 59f28e2796fb3381c6cb93f53e568820 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Armstrong Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready? Tom Hungate: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jack Armstrong on May 30, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jack about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Jack Armstrong: My real name? Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: Okay. John Armstrong. J-O-H-N, A-R-M-S-T-R-O-N-G. Franklin: Great. But you prefer— Armstrong: Jack. Franklin: You usually go by Jack. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: And so Jack, where and when were you born? Armstrong: February 25, 1942. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: In Ilion, New York. Franklin: Ilion. Is that in Upstate? Armstrong: I believe it is. I’m not real familiar with it. I was two years old when we left there. Franklin: Sure. So tell me how and why you came to the area. Armstrong: Well, my dad came here in ’44. We came in to Richland, and we rented part of a B house down on Douglas in Richland. Then later on, he got offered an H house, which is located at 407 Delafield in Richland. We lived there until they passed away, and then we sold the house. But then of course I had a brother which was a machinist out at 272-W in West Area. And my two sisters, one’s in Arizona and one’s in North or South Dakota. And I’m here. Franklin: Okay. And so why did your father come to the area? Armstrong: He was working for Remington Arms back there, and he heard there was some jobs out here, and he moved here and got on. He actually retired at PUREX where they got the little problem there. But I didn’t know anything about it or anything like that. He never talked about it, like a lot of them didn’t. Franklin: Even after the war? Armstrong: Yeah, it was just, he had a job. Just like when I got on out there, I just took whatever I could get, which was in the mailroom and the carpool out at 100-N in ’63. I saw Kennedy fly in to break ground. That was quite an experience. And then, over the course of years that I worked out there for 39 years, I held about seven different jobs, because I got bored where I was at. I did road crew, I did bus driving, storage delivery. I just had the best of it all, as far as I was concerned. Franklin: Right on. So no idea of what your dad did? Armstrong: No. Franklin: Do you know what he did at Remington? Armstrong: I have no idea. Franklin: Okay. Sounds like maybe something with machining maybe, because he worked for a gun— Armstrong: I don’t know. All I really know is that at PUREX he was mixing some chemicals and he was pushing some levers or something like that, and he was mixing some chemicals to do something. I didn’t understand any of it. Franklin: Sure. How long did your father work out at Hanford for? Armstrong: Oh, I have no idea. He’s been gone for quite a few years. Franklin: But it was well into the Cold War, though. Because PUREX didn’t—I believe PUREX came around in the early ‘50s, and so— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So, tell me about, what were your first impressions of—I know you would’ve been very young, but what were your first impressions of Richland and the Alphabet Houses and kind of the unique community here? Armstrong: Well, there was a lot of the barracks. A lot of the barracks that people would—and in fact, my dad was telling me about out at Hanford where they had confiscated the property out there and all that. It was just so much going on. In fact, you look at Richland today to what it was before, and you wouldn’t even recognize it. There’s a lot of history that the older people still hang on to. The 703 Building down behind the Federal Building, I mean, that all just engulfed that whole area, and it just changed so much. How many times has the post office moved from where it was, and stuff like that. That’s one of the things that I remember, right, I mean, every time I come into Richland, something’s changed. But it’s been interesting, the growth. I don’t know, I get a lot of questions about that. But I moved to Kennewick and I’m glad I’m there. But I had to drive al the way from up near the Home Depot all the way out—and lucky I didn’t have to drive all the way out to the Area like some of the people did. I think this bus service that they got rid of might have been costly to them, but the thing is, it sure saved people a lot of fuel, a lot of—I mean, we were busy just keeping the roads clear when it was the winter time. And trying to get people to work and stuff like that. But the buses took a lot of that away so that it was easier for people to get on a bus and go off to work. Franklin: Right, and there just wouldn’t be that Hanford traffic— Armstrong: Right, right. Franklin: Yeah, if the Hanford bus service was still around. Armstrong: Yeah, yeah. So it really, I mean—and then, of course, along came the hours that was limited on drivers to drive. So we couldn’t do any of that. We had to go home, take a rest for six hours or eight hours or whatever, and then come back. I gave up my CDL when I retired. I didn’t need it anymore. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: But I was one of the first ones that ever got it. And I was proud of that. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. And so how long did you—do you remember when you moved into the H house? Armstrong: Oh, gosh. I was so young. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: I don’t remember. Franklin: What schools did you go to? Armstrong: I went to Lewis and Clark, which, none of it’s there. And there used to be, right there on Fitch, when you run Fitch right into the school ground, there was a building there, and I can’t remember what it was. It’ll probably come to me later, but that was right there at the end. Collum was the one that T’ed right there. And I’d walk over to the school and go to school. Then I went to Carmichael, and I went to Col High and graduated in 1960. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember anything about when Richland privatized? Did your parents purchase the home that you were living in, the H house? Armstrong: Yeah, we did. Yeah. And we dug the basement out and added to the basement and all that, compared to what—most of all the houses, the B houses and the A houses and all that had part of a basement that was still dirt or sand or whatever you wanted to call it. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: But, yeah, a lot of good memories. Franklin: Yeah, well, can you share a couple with me? Armstrong: Well, we just basically—in fact, I still have association/contact with some of the people that lived in the neighborhood and have gone over and helped them out and do different things, repair things for them and stuff like that. But I get over to the neighborhood. My brother built the carport on the side of the H house for my dad for the car. And it’s still standing, and it’s doing great. But life goes on and everything changes. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: But other than that, we used to be able to walk over—well, over Wellsian Way there used to be a pond there that they used to stock fish with. And we used to walk over from the house and fish in there every year. And then they—it was a kids’ fishing pond. And they turned around and covered that all up and put businesses in there. And so on like that. A lot of things have changed that I think they lost their hand on it, because it would’ve been something that the kids today would’ve had something to do. And so— Franklin: Do you remember much about the incorporation, or kind of the general attitude of the town, how people felt about the government kind of getting out of the housing business? Armstrong: I don’t really know too much about that. I know that I didn’t even consider buying a house in Richland. My first marriage, we bought a house in Richland, and then when we divorced, I went, moved over to Kennewick. That worked better for me. But I still know a lot of the streets and which way to go and all that stuff. Franklin: Right. Do you remember—do you have any memories of doing civil defense drills when you were in— Armstrong: In school, we were, in Lewis and Clark, we’d always go in and line up in the hall and lie down and put your hands like over your face and all that stuff. Yeah, that was interesting. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Because you would’ve been in school, then, really during that high point, the real high point of tensions between the US and the Soviet Union. Was that ever talked about often? And was it still—how much did you know about what went on at Hanford at that time? Armstrong: I had no idea. Franklin: No idea? Armstrong: I had no idea. But I know that I was working at Safeway, that I was a carryout— Franklin: This was during when? Armstrong: This was when I had graduated from high school. Franklin: Okay, so in the early ‘60s? Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: Yeah, and I went and I went into the Navy and went in—I was a reservist for six years and two of it was active. Wouldn’t ya know I get stuck in Hawai’i at Fort Island. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Fort Island. Armstrong: Yeah, I know. So I was there, and my brother got brother duty and came on the ship that I was on for a while. But I came back and I got on at Safeway and was still a carryout. Then, somebody said, well, you ought to apply out at Hanford. Just get anything you want, just to get in. So anyway, just happened to be lucky that the gal I was married to, she worked at Fashion Cleaners over in Kennewick. This guy that interviewed me took his suits in there. So anyway, he went and told her before—after I got the interview done and everything. And he said, well, he’d call me tomorrow or the next day. So anyway he goes by the Fashion Cleaners, which I don’t even know if it’s still there, but he said, well, he’s got the job. So I got that, and once I got in the door, I had different things that I was able to get into. Franklin: Right. And so what was your first job out on Site? Armstrong: That was mailroom and the carpool. I took care of lubing the vehicles to the garage and stuff like that, and also delivering the mail to 105, 1100 Building, let’s see, I can’t remember the other ones. But there’s numerous buildings there that I would carry mail to, and I had that responsibility. I had a clearance where I could have people sign for things that they were mailing from one place to another, and I would make sure whether they were Secret or whatever, and I would deliver them. I had no idea what was in there, didn’t care, just delivered it. And then there was a guy that they were going to be laying off, and this guy was a control room controller. He couldn’t do it down in the Federal Building in the mailroom, so he wanted to switch with me so that I could do the mail down there, and he could possibly get—And then everything fell apart for him, but I walked right into it, because I got the job downtown and then I put in for a lube and tire job. Yeah, it was a lube and tire job out, there at 1170 Building. And I drove bus for five or six years and totally loved it. It was a ball. Franklin: What did you love about driving bus? Armstrong: What did I like? Franklin: Yeah, what did you love about it? Armstrong: Well, you got to know the people. It was just a lot of fun. I got rotated around the areas, so I would be able to—I had to know all the routes. In fact, the thing is is what a lot of people don’t realize is that all those bus drivers had to memorize the routes in town. Richland was the only one that would take the routes through the town. So, it took a while to know them forward and backwards. If somebody changed the color of their house or something like that, you had to make sure you knew that house was changed colors so you didn’t want to make a wrong turn. Plus, then you had the routes out in the areas, which you had to run. They had it set it up to where when you get to the main gate, one goes this way, and one goes this way, and they crisscross and then they meet up at the front of the Area. Some of those drivers get out of some of those buses leaving there and get back in the bus and go back to town. Then they’d be off for four hours during the day and then be on in the afternoon to go back up to pick up their bus and bring the people in. Worked real good and I really liked it a lot. Then I turned around and put in for the road crew. And I did that for five or six years, totally loved that. Franklin: Describe road crew to me, what kind of activities— Armstrong: Okay. You pump septic tanks out there. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: It’s not the best job in the world, but somebody’s got to do it. Then, we patched sidewalks, roads, small things that we did. Sprayed weeds out there. Since then, they’ve turned around and put it in to where they have a little more advanced equipment to do that. Believe it or not, we were out there with an old tractor on the front of a tank, and there was somebody on the back with a hand wand, and somebody was driving the tractor, whether it was me or somebody else. We’d drive through and spot-spray or whatever we were doing. Since then, they’ve actually went and put helicopters or whatever out there, and they spray and do so much quicker job and better job than what we can do. But we pretty well did it all. Especially when wintertime came, we had some salt mixed in with the sand, so that it wouldn’t freeze. But the thing is that a lot of people didn’t understand—and I learned a lot from this guy from Idaho, he was my boss for a while, and he said that actually, he said, the salt only works down to a certain degree, and after that it’s no good. And then they had dry pavement blades, which they finally eventually got away from. But they were, I thought, a lot more cost effective, because you didn’t have the shoes down there that would wear out. But they changed—with everybody they switch out with managers and stuff like that, everybody’s got a different idea. But we would—we’d be out there all night, trying to keep people to where they could be safe going out to work. There was one night that I was called out there and it was just below the east hill. We had heard that there was a gal that was coming from the power plant there at West Area. We all knew her. She was coming down the road and slid off the highway. Anyway, I was the only one out there, and I was going down the road, and I thought, well, I’ll stop and see if I could help her. Well, I put on the brakes and I didn’t stop. I mean, I had a whole load and everything on, and I was just sliding down the highway. I got out and had to hang on to the dump truck because it was so slick out there. So I finally figured out that that’s what was going on, so I started sanding there and that helped. And there was another time that a lot of people were having—they called it the first railroad crossing past 300 Area, and we were told that there was people having a heck of a time making it out of that little hill. So anyway, I whipped around and started spraying the sand right down in front of them, and they just all started moving. Made me feel really good, like I did something right, you know? It’s always nice that you get appreciation from people like that. But it just gave you so much enjoyment, doing a lot of that stuff. Some people out there had a lot of that with some of the jobs they did. That’s one that I really liked. But I’d just get bored after a while and decide to jump into something. I got out of the road crew and ended up going into the warehouse that all the main stuff came in there and they got sorted by the storekeepers and stuff like that, and then it would be put—we’d put it on our truck. We’d have 28-foot trailers with side racks that would lift off, and we’d turn around and deliver it to the different places that we’d go to. I was delivering to 200 West for about, I think it was about six years—16 years. 16 years, I did that. Franklin: Oh, wow. And that’s where you got your CDL? Armstrong: I actually had to get it—I think that’s where I got it from, yeah. Franklin: How was that? How was the warehouse work? Armstrong: It was okay. We would load up—well, they came up with the idea that they all needed water out there in the Project. I never agreed with that. But they would say that some of the pipes were rusty and all this kind of stuff. And they’ve got all kinds of filter plants out there and all this. We took a tour, the wife and I, and the guy went by with our bus, and he was saying, well, they’re building a filtration water plant here. I says, oh, is that for the water, so you don’t have to buy bottled water? And he says, no, it’s for something else. And I thought—there was one trailer that specifically started that, years ago. The big 5-gallon—and they’re heavy. The thing is you’d take a pallet or two out to somewhere and deliver it to them. Well, people were having to lift them and put them on top of their little cooler things. But it gave us a job. We did a lot of janitorial supplies out there in the Area. Paper. You name it. I had a combination of steel and some of the paper goods and stuff for different trailers and stuff like that. I enjoyed the big part of that. I had a lot of people that, when I was gone, they were glad I got back. There’s several drivers that had that same situation. When I retired—there’s a lot of people that still call me. And say, you know how this is, you know how that is. And I say, yeah, but I can’t help that; I’m retired. [LAUGHTER] But I tried to make friends with people that I worked with and stuff like that. I enjoyed most of it, I really did. But I’m finally got it through my head that 39 years was enough and that was it. Franklin: Okay. Yeah. How did—did working out there change when Hanford stopped production and kind of moved—the Tri-Party Agreement was signed and moved into clean up? Did that affect your job in any significant way? Armstrong: No, not really. The machine shops were still going out there. We’d haul steel out there. The real—in fact, my brother ended up—he was a machinist and he worked there at 2-West at 272-W. He was given the job to set up in 300 Area that used to have a machine shop down there and set it back up with him and another guy. They did a lot of machine work down there. A lot of it. So it really didn’t change too much. There was always special things that had to be made. And I was amazed—I would go into the shop to make my delivery where he worked, and I was really amazed some of the things they can make. It just took me—I couldn’t believe it. There was different things that he could do that I couldn’t even think of doing. But then, of course, he probably couldn’t jump in the truck and deliver like I do, either. But the thing is, you see so much that other people do. I would go into PFP, where the Plutonium Finishing Plant was, and they would check me up and down and everything else. And I’d meet the storekeepers that would take the material as I went into the area there. And it was just so much that you had to be an in-between, between the warehouse and the people that you were delivering to. The thing is is I enjoyed that part. I always have enjoyed that part. So it’s just like the buses, the same thing. It was so much fun. I was glad I got out of it before they shut everything down, because all those drivers that didn’t have seniority went out to the Area. That was extra driving and all that kind of stuff. They took all that away, because they used to be able to get a certain amount of money toward the fuel that they were having to drive out to the area but they took all that away. I can’t remember what they called that, but it was some extra money that they were getting, and then they took it away. Franklin: For folks that have to drive out there? Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Like a mileage cost. Armstrong: Oh, yeah. And the thing is, one time—well, since we all got moved down—I got moved down to the warehouse, the guys out in the Area would need to call some drivers to drive out there and get some of the salt on the sidewalks and stuff like that. They were wanting us to get in our private rig and drive from the warehouse, or from where our house was, all the way out there. And I decided after the first time I went out there, I says, no, I’m not going to accept that. Because if I get stuck out there, they’re not going to pay me anyway, and I’m going to have to pay for a wrecker to get me out. So there was no real consideration, you know, for the person that was going out of their way to do their job. But if they turned around and have a government rig sitting there, and I got in it, I’d get paid. So your private rig, whole different ball game. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: I think they’ve taken a lot away from some of the people out there. And the machine shop, I think it’s gone out there. They moved it over to Pasco, and all the guys with it. So there’s a lot of changes. But maybe they didn’t need it, that’s the whole thing. But so many things have changed. The wife and I took a couple of tours out there, and she really enjoyed it, because she’s from the other side of the mountains. So, this was all new for her. Of course, I could explain some things to her, but some things the narrator had to explain because so much of it’s just changed. Franklin: Which tour did you take? Armstrong: We took the B tour. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: That was the best one I could tell her to do, because you get to see just about everything. In fact, the old bank down there at Hanford, I don’t know if it’s still there or not. I know they fenced it because people were going in there and taking things out of it, I guess, or whatever. But you used to be able to see the deer and the elk and all that stuff. Years ago, there was horses out there. They had it in their mind that they had to get rid of the horses because too many people were going down to the river and watching them. That happened. And that was bad, because I really enjoyed, when I had to run down through there, I could maybe see the horses. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Armstrong: But that’s when, even 100-F was even working. I was delivering to that one time. That was a long time ago. Then when they’d come out with saying that there were alligators or something. I think it come out here, about ten, 15 years ago, something like that. And I had no idea there was anything like that. The beagles were there, and, of course, they were down at 300 Area too. But I never knew that much about any of that stuff. I don’t know, I just thought I had a good time when I was there. Franklin: Oh, great. And so you said you retired after 39 years, so that would be— Armstrong: 2002. Franklin: 2002, okay. So, let me see here. We’ve covered a lot of my questions. Oh, we talked about JFK’s visit. Were you working on site when JFK came to visit the N Reactor? Armstrong: Actually, I was in the audience with everybody. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: I was out there at 100-N. Yeah. Franklin: And what do you remember about that day? Armstrong: Oh, I remember standing there and watching the helicopter coming across the Columbia River. And you know how you get that feeling, your hair standing up on end? And that’s about the way I felt, because it was so neat. I really liked the guy. It was just a neat experience that I went through. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: It was good. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work in any of your jobs. Armstrong: It—[SIGH] Well, there was one time that they actually brought the dog in, down there at the warehouse. And they would go through the packages, just walk the dog through there. They started doing that before I left. It was amazing what the dog could do. That’s what sort of blew me away. We had a picnic down near the pumping station there, North Richland there. There was a park down there. They had the dog there. And the guy took the clip from his pistol and stuck it out in the parking lot on top of a wheel. And that dog walked right over there and found it. Never saw him do it or nothing. And I thought, wow, that’s cool. So they were really emphasizing that, that you don’t want to bring anything on there. I asked the guy, I says, well, if I had a pistol in my pickup that I drive to work, would I be in trouble if you found it? And he said, well, it’s on our property, so you’d want not to have that. Well, there’s some people that do that. Anyways, it worked out, I went home that night and made sure I didn’t have anything under my seat. [LAUGHTER] But the thing is, some of the things that the average people don’t know that those dogs can do, and that’s what they relied on. There was one incident when I was driving out to 100-N, there was a guy named Cotton, he was a patrolman. He was charged with letting a van come through the barricade. Because there’s a lot of vehicles in the morning going through there. So anyway, I went from 100-N over to 100-D and I noticed this van sitting off to the side of the road, like, there’s people over there trying to tie something down. And I went over to D and did something, came back, went to 100-N, went in and told the patrolman I saw a van sitting over there with some people tying something down to the roof. I said, they don’t look like they belonged here. So anyway, gave him my name and everything. Well, then I got a phone call. They charged their own patrolman with letting them through. They had no proof of it. It was really sort of funny, and I hope I don’t get in any trouble with this, but it’s a long time ago. But the thing is, I went down to the Federal Building and they had a hearing with Cotton. They had me as a witness. They said, well, which way would you have thought that van would’ve come in, the Yakima Barricade or the Wye Barricade? I says, I have no idea. I said, I don’t know. I know it was aimed towards 100-D, but I don’t know which way they could’ve come in. So anyway, these guys were bringing charges against Cotton and they said, well, you’ve got to say that he was the one that did it. Well, no, I can’t say that. So anyway, we went to take a break, and those guys that were in the Federal Building, they had their badges like here. Or no, they pulled them out of their pocket and put them on them when they went through the security thing. And I said, why aren’t they wearing them all the time? That’s what we have to do when we’re delivering mail or whatever. And the union person that was defending Cotton said, don’t say anything. We’re doing fine. [LAUGHTER] I says, well, that makes me mad. They have these ideas, but they don’t follow through on them. So—do as I do, not as I say, type-thing. It just gripes me to no end. But he got his job back. And he thanked me very much for that. He says, you stood up for me. He says, they were going to can me. And he was old enough to retire, but he just didn’t want to retire. So, he’s probably gone now, but I felt good that I was able to help save his job. Franklin: Any idea what the people in the van were doing? Did that ever come up? Armstrong: I think they got through and somebody just didn’t do their job. That’s all it was. Plain and simple. Sometimes, they would pull you off to the side and just go through your whole rig. You would never know what was going to happen. It didn’t matter if I went through there two or three times a day. They would still check you out. And that was just their job. If you went out there to Dash-5—sometimes I would have an escort that had to ride with me just to go inside the gate. Probably no further than from here to the parking lot. And then I’d turn around and get it unloaded and then head back to town. But you just never know. And that’s what they have to go for, you know, just to be able to check you, you have no idea they’re going to check you. Franklin: Sure, I mean, that’s the whole concept behind randomized screening is that it makes everybody want to play by the rules, right? You never know if you’ll be the one who gets checked. So what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Armstrong: Well, I don’t know. I didn’t get too bad in what I did, but I’ve had a little bit of cancer on my nose and a few things. I’m going down to a Jewish hospital in Denver every two years. I’m beryllium sensitive. That just allows me to be able to go—I pay for it, they reimburse me. So far, I’m in pretty decent health. And I’m 75 years old. I never thought I’d live that long, but you never know. [LAUGHTER] But, no, it’s a good-paying job. I can’t complain at it. They did some benefits and stuff that they changed and stuff that before I retired, I had 15 weeks of vacation that I was able to stack up. I got up to 20 weeks of severance pay, which made a pretty good little pot when I retired, so that helped me a little bit. And I don’t know if those benefits keep going with some of the people that are working out there now. I know a lot of jobs have went away and stuff like that. I’m just glad I got into it and did what I did and had a good time doing it. Made a lot of friends. So that was pretty good for me as far as I was concerned. Franklin: Okay. Great, well, thank you so much, Jack. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down and talk to us today. Armstrong: Glad to. Franklin: Okay. Awesome. Armstrong: Thank you. Franklin: Yeah, thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/FvH0d5gUtQ0">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 272-W PUREX 100-N 706 Building 1100 Building 1170 Building 300 Area 200 West PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 100-F 100-D Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1961-2012 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Armstrong Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Civil defense Civil defense drills Description An account of the resource Jack Armstrong moved to Richland, Washington as a child in 1944 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1961-2002. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/30/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F46791ed421590b711a395ad8efbaf06d.jpg 92c08336667442429afb1c8754d9f1dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene Astley Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Eugene Astley on December 5th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Astley about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name? Astley: Yeah. Eugene Astley. That’s E-U-G-E-N-E, A-S-T-L-E-Y. Franklin: Great. So let’s start at the beginning. Tell me how and why you came to the Hanford site. Astley: I was working in General Electric back in Schenectady in the research labs. Loved my job there, but in 1954—the winter of ’53, really, it was like 30 below, and I decided to walk into work. That wasn’t going to work. Hated the weather. So, when I walked in the building, I walked up to the top, and walked in the boss’s office and said I want to give you a month’s notice. I’m leaving. I cannot stand this weather. Summer’s even worse. [LAUGHTER] So, I was sitting in my office and a couple weeks later, when Dave McGlenagan[?] who’s the recruiter for the laboratory walked into my office and said, are you Eugene Astley? I said, yeah. He said, I understand you’ve given notice to General Electric Company, and there was a notice put out to all subsidiaries and whatnot that they thought this person should be retained in the General Electric Company. We have a project out at Hanford. I said, yeah. I said, you’re not talking about taking me out there in that damn desert, are you? I was raised in Portland, Oregon. I mean, nobody lived in that part of the world. [LAUGHTER] So, he talked me into coming out, and then they explained that they had a group called design, and they were thinking about perhaps adding a new production reactor, which would be the ninth one, I guess. Yeah, the ninth one. And that the physicist who had been in charge of doing—was on this particular design team, which they called a core design, had left. So they wanted me to fill that position. I’d never before worked in any such project or reactor or anything. I told them, I don’t know anything about reactors. And they said, well, you did your master’s degree in studying gaseous diffusion, which is the basis of all the theory we’re using for reactors right now. And you’ll find out, except for terminology, you’re an expert. [LAUGHTER] So I came. And so then I slid into this design group, and then the idea of the production reactor—new one—came along. They asked us to design a concept. We were a group of about eight people. And I was the chief physicist of all the physics on the work. We got going on that. I came on up with the idea that this really ought to be different from the Hanford reactors as we know them, because it ought to be a dual-purpose reactor, one that produced electricity. And I said it’s going to be about 3,000 megawatts thermal, and we can probably produce around 1,000 megawatt electric, which would be a great addition. That’d bring in a lot of income, and it would pay for—more than pay for—the operation of the plant. So you’d be getting your new plutonium free. Of course, GE management thought that was great. So that’s the way it went down. And then about, I think, two years later, when we were well into the design and pretty well doing it, it came to the attention of the Atomic Energy Commission more directly about what exactly would the design look like. As soon as the word dual purpose came out, they said, what do you mean by that? We’re going to produce electricity. Uh-oh! So, it turned out that Bill Johnson and Al Grenager and I were then called back to testify before the DOE—the AEC first and then Congress. Because the democrats were controlling—they thought it was a great idea. Republicans were against any government getting into the power business. They already had too much with TVA and Bonneville. So they were dead set against it. So we testified on what a great thing would be for helping to lower the costs of plutonium. We were still in the Cold War, so we thought it was still needed more. So I came back, and about three weeks later, down came the word that there was a compromise made politically, so that we would be allowed to produce enough power to run the reactor only. But that in view of the fact that things sometimes change, we want you to also design it so that at some later date when they decide producing 1,000 megawatt electrics would be feasible, go ahead and design it as a dual purpose anyway. But design it so that the first operation would be like lower temperature water, 350. Of course, that just blew our mind, because that was absolutely stupid. [LAUGHTER] I mean, because you had to design the thing to operate with 700 or 750-degree water. So that really increased the cost of things and what you could do and what you didn’t have to do. But nobody had ever designed a turbine to run at 350 degrees. Okay? Because the pressure’s so low, you end up with a monster. When you walked—when we finally built that thing, you walked in it, people that had designed turbines would ask, what is that? It had no relationship to anything anybody had ever conceived. You walked in, looked at the turbine, what’s that? [LAUGHTER] And of course at those pressures, the steam you’re producing is very wet, which is also deterrent. And you have to redesign the buckets to collect the water and drain it off. I mean, it was an abortion. And it made it very difficult to design. So it took special precautions, it entered into physics that I had to start designing some new physics and mathematics to handle the damn problem. Because they turned out that—at 700 degrees, if you have a tube burst, then the pressure comes out and wants to blow the stack apart. So, the first thing the engineer said, we got to groove these graphite blocks so there’s a place for the steam to go on out, and then we’ll bleed it out of the reactor and dissipate it in a very large area. But all of the sudden now, from a physics standpoint, now I’ve got neutrons wanting to stream out that way. That had never been handled before, so I had to figure out how to handle that from a physics standpoint. It turned out to be mathematically difficult. We didn’t have—you know, the computer we had was a 650, which was about 1/1000th as much as the computer in your cell phone. [LAUGHTER] I mean, you know? No memory. It was horrible—mechanical-type thing. Franklin: Right. With tapes—the reels. Astley: Yeah, punch cards. Franklin: Punch cards, right. Astley: So then I’d have to get in and say, okay, I’ve put this thing in bucket number 5A, and where am I now? I’m over here, so I should spin the thing this direction so I’ll have a shorter time to get back to the memory spot. I mean, this is by today’s standards, this is below most computer people’s mind, thinking that’s what you’re doing. Actually had to tell the drum which way to spin? Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: Anyway, we got that, we finally did design that. It was in dead run for a number of years and produced enough energy to do itself. But of course it got shut down before anything ever came of producing electricity. But that was a good case of where philosophies between the two political parties actually designed a reactor. That’s just—not good? [LAUGHTER] I can understand where—because I was republican also. I can understand where they were coming from, but it still made sense from the standpoint of saving money for the country. Franklin: Right. Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So I thought it was a good thing to do. And I didn’t think of it in terms of really putting the government further into it. But they were afraid that it would set a precedence for all further government operations and that type of thing. It would be invasive from that standpoint. Franklin: So their opposition was more ideological, and you perhaps had a more kind of practical viewpoint— Astley: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: --on that. How did you solve the problem of the neutrons bleeding out? Astley: I did it by going to cylindrical. At that time, you really had two choices, spherical or cylindrical. I got to looking at cylindrical geometry, and then I remembered from my graduate work that the engineers used cylindrical—I mean their theorists did. And that instead of, in physics where we’re using spheres, you use Bessel functions, and they were using Hankel functions. And I’d never really used a Hankel function. But they’re just as powerful for cylindrical geometry as Bessel functions were spheres. So I used that kind of a mathematical approach and cobbled up some—and then imposed upon it a radial geometry at the same time to make the math work. So it was kind of interesting, because what you did was increase the albedo and lost a lot of neutrons out, which then was important. You know, what did our shielding have to look like, and how much more does that make it that we have to enrich the fuel to be able to sustain the fission? Franklin: Oh. Did the reactor ever operate at 700 degrees? Because I know they put the steam generating station—the WHPSS station— Astley: Well, what they did was they didn’t build the second part of the turbine. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: They just built the turbine to be able to do its job. Franklin: Right. Astley: And then later they could come on in with the normal turbine and move the old one back and go with the new turbine. Franklin: And did that happen? Astley: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: Never happened. It was still politically impossible. Franklin: Do you kind of connect it with that reactor—do you remember JFK—were you present at JFK’s visit? Astley: I’m sorry, I didn’t get that. Franklin: I’m sorry. Connected with the N Reactor, were you present at JFK’s dedication of the steam generating facility—the steam processing facility? Astley: Yeah, I think so. I barely remember that, you know. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: That was not part of anything that I designed. I told them what the parameters had to be, but it was up to the engineering part. Different group of people. Franklin: Okay. So, tell me about the Fast Flux Test Facility and how you came to design that. Astley: Okay. Well, then, I had—in 1960 then, I was promoted out to handle all the maintenance and maintenance engineering for the eight reactor operating—operating reactors. At that time, when they pulled me and said they wanted to do that, I said, you know, I’m a physicist. I’m a theoretical physicist, in fact. I’d done some experimental work, but I really am not a guy who knows much about maintenance. And they said, precisely. That’s your problem. We think you have real management capabilities; you need to learn more about other things. [LAUGHTER] So they said, it’s our opinion that to a certain extent the pressures on the reactor manager are so hard to never shut the reactor down, and when it does shut down to get it back on its feet, that the maintenance tends to be a little bit more crude than we would like. And we’d like to have a little more technology put into it. So that sounded a little more interesting. [LAUGHTER] But I ended up with like 1,000 pipefitters and millwrights and machine shops and stuff like that that I was in charge of. That was my first experience with dealing with the union. Franklin: Okay. Astley: Which was a broadening experience, certainly. Franklin: I bet. Any notable experiences when dealing with the union? Astley: Not good ones. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Astley: They—one of the problems there again was politics. The unions were very strong with the democrats. So if you were tried to get hardnosed and have a strike, you just—the top management got a call immediately from the president or vice president, that type of stuff, saying, we understand that, you know, what you’re trying to do, shut down our production? You can’t do that; give them what they really want. That was their sort of philosophy. So they ended up with a lot of—which was very difficult for me, because I was also then working with these people. And when you up in the front face when a tube failed—leaked—then you had to pull off some big bolts on the thing that held the tube in. And then you had to pull the tube out, so the union argued that handling the tube was pipefitter work, but handling the big phalange was millwright. So you had to have both kinds of people up there at the same time, taking radiation, when one guy would have been able to do it. Then of course, they say, well, we’re all suited up, so we’ll just wait while the other guy does his thing. So he had 50% work. So those kind of things went on, that it made it difficult from a management standpoint, because we had very strict rules about how much radiation people could take. You had a daily limit and a yearly limit. So one of the problems I had was trying to manipulate the forces so that I didn’t ever overexpose people. The front face had a lower radiation level than the rear face. So the front face would be like ten MR per hour, and the rear face might be 200 or 300. So that was also a logistical problem that was—I don’t know how many people thought about those kind of things, but those are important, you know? We had a three-R limit for everybody, so, the problem was then that when we got to the point that it looked like maybe we’d either have to hire some people, then I went over from another manager running the reprocessing plants, I could borrow some of his people to even out the radiation exposure. Franklin: Wow. Astley: So it was those kind of problems at that level that were very difficult, and later on were even more difficult, because it turned out that there was a—they redesigned the tubes, which had little—a round tube with little things on it poking up where the fuel could be centered—not really centered, because you needed more flow on the top than the bottom. But they redesigned those and redesigned them wrong. So they ended up getting them up too close, and the top of the tubes, the temperature of the water was too high so it started to erode all the tubing. At some point in I think it was 1963, we had to re-tube six of the reactors, which was 12,000 tubes. At that time, it took an hour-and-a-half to do one tube. Franklin: Wow. Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: And they said that we can’t do that. You got to get that down to like 30 minutes. So I ended up inventing a device for them that worked real well. When you have aluminum tube, you put a phalange on it. So you can put a gasket and seal it. To do that, the millwrights would go on up with three tools and put the first one in and bang it with a small sledge, which would do it. Then they’d do the second one a little more and the third one. And the problem was that some of the millwrights were very strong, and so the third one they’d really rap it. Those tended to crack. Franklin: Oh. Astley: So they had a lot of time like that. So I invented a—which turned out to be kind of fun, because of the problems involved—but I got the idea that—I’d been studying something, and I read at that time that if you move metal fast enough, it wouldn’t know it’s been moved, so it’d be stress-free. Wouldn’t crack. So there at that time for the weapons program were putting an explosive charge in and blowing a bubble on something. So I thought, hey, why don’t I do that. So I thought, I’ll modify a .45 automatic and have a blank. That gas pressure—which I read up on—was enough then to—if I had a rubber thing back in there, a mole, I could go in and pull the trigger and—shew—you’d have your phalange. 20 seconds, not an hour-and-a-half. So that blew the whole thing apart. We managed to get down to 15 minutes a tube. Franklin: Wow. Astley: That thing—that worked. But then, of course, as soon as I started to talk about this, safety people got involved. And then, even worse, the security people. Because, you said, you’re going to talk about bringing a loaded weapon on board with ammunition? We don’t do that. Only guards are allowed to have weapons. [LAUGHTER] So I think it took me two months to finally persuade whoever all’s involved that I could bring this in. And then it turned it out that I had to have a special safe to put the gun and the bullets—even though they were blanks and all that. And then we had to have a guard, that every time we took it out would go on up on the front face to make sure that somebody didn’t use the weapon somehow or other to kill somebody, or—you know, it was, I mean, little things like that that got to me. Kind of difficult for theoretical physicists to deal with. Really wasn’t—[LAUGHTER]—something--my feeling was, what a bunch of bullshit. I mean, trying to get a job done! And we got it done, and then everything was confiscated and done something with. Franklin: Wait, was there a specific—did you give a specific name to that tool? Astley: I just called it an explosive installing tool. And the word explosive didn’t get me off to a good start. It was very descriptive, unfortunately. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I could see how— Astley: And for that I was awarded one share of General Electric stock. Franklin: One share? Astley: One share, right. Franklin: Wow. I assume that’s split into a couple more by now. Astley: I think so. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, there I was out there running maintenance when I got this call. Of course they knew my background, so—in fact, I was in charge of core design before they pulled me from being a physicist to being the supervisor of the core design group. So I had a lot of experience in that area. So they brought me in and Albaugh told me that he wasn’t sure where we wanted to go, but he said, I’ve got kind of a thinking here. He said, I really think that the way things are going, that the next reactor’s going to be a fast reactor—a breeder reactor. And so it sounds just off the top of my head, he said, that maybe that’s something you really ought to take a hard look at in this study. With only two weeks to do, I went to the library. For some reason, all’s I remember is the microfiche or something they called it, I don’t know. But at any rate, started running my eyeballs out on these things where I’d be looking at things that’d been photographed and trying to read about fast reactors. So I finally came to the conclusion that at that time—I found that Oak Ridge, which was the head of all fast breeder reactor stuff and running the Idaho operations, had EBR-I running as a test reactor. They had proposed to Congress that they wanted to build another one called FARET—F-A-R-E-T. About the only thing different about it and ERB-I is that they copied everything, except they changed the lid so they could get in and refuel easier. I thought, that’s a mistake. As long as you’re going to build a reactor, you ought to try to also make it more facile for doing its job of looking at exposure of fuels and materials. Also, it had such a low flux level that essentially what they had was if they had wanted to take ten years, find out what happened to this material in ten years, it took them ten years. It seemed to me that what you needed to do was get the flux up by at least a factor of ten. And then we could get ten years’ worth of experience in one year, and be real serviceable to the industry. So I then came back into Albaugh—this was after about a week—and I said, here’s what I think. But, I said, to go further any more, I think, so see whether this is possible to make something ten times as fast with the technology we got, I said, I really need to put together a concept. I said, I can’t do that by myself. I need an engineer to help me. There’s a guy on your staff that actually worked at Fermi Reactor, which is a fast breeder reactor built by—out of Chicago. Edison? Edison Electric, maybe. Can’t remember what—anyway, the head of that thing wanted to always lead the parade. They built it and didn’t understand the graphite swells as it—so that was a big fiasco, because after about—you know, I don’t know, six months or a year the whole thing cracked apart and couldn’t be run anymore. So I got a permission to do that. Then Albaugh said, well, go ahead and put together three or four people, whoever you need. And he said, but I can’t pay for it; I don’t have that in my budget. So he said, I want you to just go out wherever they are and talk whoever the manager is into loaning you somebody, and they pay for it. And I said, okay. But, he said, remember this is all secret. You can’t tell them what this is for. Franklin: Why was it secret? Astley: Because nobody knew General Electric was going to leave. Franklin: And what year was this again? Astley: That would have been ’64. Franklin: Okay. Astley: I’m sure—maybe they were thinking about it in ’63, I wasn’t in on it. But by the time I got knowledgeable about it, it was like July ’64. Franklin: And that was before most of the employees knew, right? It was still pretty secret at that time. Astley: GE was pulling out, period. Franklin: Right. Okay. Astley: So they were—I think there’s like, maybe three or four people of theirs—a couple at DOE, the highest guy running it and the next guy down. So it was a real super-secret project. So it was kind of awkward to go into a guy a couple levels higher than I was and sit down and tell him I needed to use his—like, Les Finch was an example of what I considered to be the best engineer on the planet that I knew, that I needed him. But I couldn’t tell him what for. You know? [LAUGHTER] It was—when I told Albaugh, I said, I don’t—gee, I’m not even sure that’s possible. I can’t tell him something. He said, well, he says, no, you’ve got a reputation for being the best pirate at the Hanford anyway. So you ought to be able to handle it. [LAUGHTER] And I did. I got together a group of four or five people. They then gave me a couple months. So it took me about 60 days of this group and we came up with a concept. I turned the patent in on it, got a patent on it. Then we actually came up with a design. In fact, I have a thing, it’s about this thick—when I left there they gave me a montage that essentially shows the reactor and all the kinds of parts that we devised. It was a beautiful thing by a designer I had on there that was an incredible draftsman. Did everything in ink, never made a mistake. Franklin: Was that Dennis Brunson? Astley: Beg your pardon? Franklin: Dennis Brunson? Astley: I didn’t get that. Franklin: Was that Dennis Brunson? Astley: No, it was Andy Anthony. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: Incredible guy. I mean, he did everything in ink, and he did it once, he did it fast. And he had an incredible ability to visualize three-dimensionally. So he would sit on my meeting, and we’d discuss, and I’d discuss what the core had to look like. Which, I’ve said, okay, we need more room, because that’s the big problem. We’ve got room on the top face of this reactor. And when I was down having lunch one day, I ordered a milkshake, and then I saw her lift up the thing to pull the straws out. What happens then is that the straws fold out. Okay? So you have a matrix of straws, which—I got back thinking about that. That’s a way to get the things apart and still have a dense core. Okay? Franklin: Ahh. Astley: So we designed the core that way. We only had to tilt the tubes like about eight degrees. That gave us a lot of room up there by the time you got up to where you wanted to work. So that was part of the design. That didn’t turn out to be—it wasn’t allowed to go through. The reason was that we were left alone. The head of the—I don’t know—well, I’ll tell you, because, I mean, what can they do? [LAUGHTER] We ended up with a big political problem within the AEC. The guy that was heading the AEC was in bed with Argonne, because they were the breeder reactor. So the fact that we came on in saying we wanted to build a reactor at Hanford and replace the FARET was absolutely objectionable to him. So I was called back to talk to him and explain what we were doing, why we were doing it, why the FARET wasn’t any good and whatnot. So he listened to the whole thing, I go back home. Three days later I get a letter—telegram from him saying stop and desist all work on the FFTF, whether it be private funds or public funds. Franklin: Wow. Astley: Okay? So I sat down with Fred and he said, well, why don’t I see what I can do. So he called his friend who was this guy’s boss, who had—I can’t—I got a moment where I can’t remember his name. Very famous physicist out of California. But he and Fred had been roommates together getting their Ph.D. And Fred’s wife had married his secretary. [LAUGHTER] So he called him up and he said, well, that’s interesting. So he called the AEC—the head of the commission itself, who are a group of congressmen that ran everything. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Astley: One of the congressmen happened to be interested in our concept. So he called us back there and he and Fred and I sat for about four hours talking about what we had in mind. So then we told him about—showed him these facts. And he said, well, I’ll take care of that. So what they did was fired him! Franklin: Wow. Astley: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Then word came down: continue with your work. And gave us a deadline for getting in a proposal and all that kind of stuff. I was left alone, totally, for a year. No guidance from the AEC. We were totally on our own while they were hunting to replace him. So they finally replaced him with Milt Shaw, who was Admiral—was he an admiral then? No, I think. Yeah, he was an admiral then. Admiral Rickover? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So he came on in then. And then it took him a year, putting a staff together as he thought he needed it, along the Rickover-type thing. It was actually two years into the whole thing where we had finished the preliminary design. I was in the midst of putting out proposals to get the architect engineers in, when I got called back there to meet Milt. Then about two or three weeks later I came back and made a presentation where we were. And he said, no. He said, you don’t understand the problem. And I said, what problem is that? [LAUGHTER] He said, politically it’s very difficult right now to get the money I need to go forward with a prototype breeder reactor. So what I’ve got is this reactor. So I’ve got to make it—we want to make it as close to a prototype breeder as we can. And I said, if we do that, it’s going to sacrifice 90% of its ability to do the kind of work we really want to do for studying materials, which is our proposal. So we won’t be—the flux will be lower, and we’ll be back to looking like a modified or better machine than EBR-I. But I said, that just doesn’t make any sense to me. He said, I understand your technical problems. That hasn’t anything to do with the problem. I can only get so much money. I said, if we do that, we can’t do this reactor for the cost that we’ve pledged to do. I said, I have no idea what it will be costing, but it’s not going to be around $100 million. I said, it could be $200 or $300 million, I think. He said, well, you know, your thinking isn’t important to me; I’ll take care of that problem. So we finally received orders that we couldn’t skew the core. He said, who’s ever heard of a commercial reactor with a skewed core? He said, that doesn’t make any sense to me. You want—I said, it’s only eight degrees. I don’t think that’s going to make a bit of difference. Well, he said, we want the core straight. So, then he said, now, in order to do that, the people who really know how to do that is Westinghouse. You know, the whole background was Westinghouse—his background. So he said, put out a—why don’t you go out for proposals to design the core to at least three different people including Westinghouse. And then he said also take a look at Idaho, which was essentially part of the same group of people. Then said, and throw General Electric in. So I was forced to do that, which meant that we were that back starting at scratch. Two years’ worth of work down the drain. So that went on—I guess that was in late ’67. So by ’68, we had that work done, redoing everything. And then he said, okay, now—the next thing he said is we’re going to have to put all the sodium exchangers and whatnot inside the dome, because that’s what we’ll have to do with the prototypes. And I said, that’s going to make the dome be bigger than any dome anybody’s ever built in the world. I said, we can’t just say we’re going to do that until I get a chance to talk to people, like Chicago Bridge and Iron is probably going to have to do the job, or the Japanese. Don’t want the Japanese, he said! Okay. To find out if they can do this. You’re talking about equipment, and your equipment can only do so big. So I went back and talked to them, and found I was right, that they couldn’t do it. But that they could build a piece of equipment to do it, provided that the AEC wanted to pay for it. So I came back to him, and I said for $50 million they can do it. He said what’s the $50 million for? A machine. You’re handling these huge things, and they got to be cylinders. They don’t have any equipment—cranes and everything. So he said, okay, well, that’s no problem. So that’s the way it went. It kept going that way. In late ’68, I finally hired Bechtel to do a cost estimate for me on where we were. It came out about $455 million. [LAUGHTER] So I wrote a letter to Shaw and told him, the costs on this project are totally out of bounds. I said, every time we turn around, I get instructions from your staff to add this or add that. It just keeps going on and on and on. I don’t know where we’re going, but I said, for my study, we can probably go back to $150 million to $200 maybe, and keep most of the things you want. But, I said, you got to stop your people coming in and asking for anything without having a meeting back there to decide whether this is something we can afford or is really important. I said, you just got to stop everybody coming out there with their gut feelings and druthers. Okay? Well, as you can imagine, that didn’t sit well. I got called back there. He just really dressed me down. [LAUGHTER] Everybody later told me the whole floor evacuated it was so loud, him yelling at me. Franklin: Wow. Astley: So I came back and thought it through. Then I came in by Albaugh, who was the director of Battelle and told him—I mean Saul Fawcett, who was the director. And I told him that I really felt at this point, the costs are so far out of control, and I showed him the letter I got, that we needed to withdraw from the project. Now, this is nowhere in anybody’s record, so I don’t know what you want to do with that information. It caused a meeting, and then finally, Fawcett and Albaugh and I went back to the board of trustees and told them why we wanted to do this, and they gave us approval to do it. We then set up a meeting with AEC. Came back there, and in the meantime, Shaw had gotten so irritated at what I’d done that he decided that I wasn’t under proper control. So in the meeting, he said, what I want to do now at this meeting, see, I want to reorganize like I’ve done down at so-and-so. The laboratory will still be responsible for funding—handling the funds, paying the paychecks—but Gene Astley will then report directly to me, running the lab. So Battelle had nothing to do with any of the technology—anything else—just handling—so he said, you’ll still get your fee, et cetera. And Fawcett finally said, I think I can—if you’d let me say a few words here, I think we can get over this problem immediately. So Shaw said, yes, okay. He said, we’re formally asking you to find another contractor to run the project. Shaw said, you can’t do that! And Fawcett said, why can’t I do that? He said, because that’s not what I want. And he said, furthermore, why do you want to withdraw? He said, we have a tax problem. And we felt that—my understanding—I’m not sure whether we did or didn’t. But at that time, we were a not-for-profit. Not a non-profit, but a not-for-profit. There’s a distinction. You can—you’re allowed to pay people bonuses and things of that nature, but—so then he also said that it’s not entirely clear to us that that’s in keeping with the Battelle will. So then Shaw said, okay, fine. He said, that’s it. We’ll find one. But he said, no matter who we find I want to reserve Gene Astley for—if it turns out to be Westinghouse or GE or whoever, that he then be available for those outfits to hire him so he could continue to—so even though he got really pissed at me—[LAUGHTER]—he still wanted me. And Fawcett just stood up and he said, I’m sorry, but Gene Astley—we have other needs for him, and he is not going to be available. So that ended the meeting. So then they found—and he went to his office—Shaw—and immediately called Westinghouse, and didn’t go out for bitter or anything. Just turned the whole project over to Westinghouse. Which is very irregular. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: You know? So they sent a crew out there and it was kind of funny, because the guy that took over, he was talking with the paper and he said—they said, isn’t this going to be a problem with a big transfer right in the middle? You resign? He said, never fear. And I won’t name his name, but he says, so-and-so’s here, happened to rhyme—[LAUGHTER]—he got replaced about six months later. So that’s how the FFTF got going. It did turn out to finally be constructed. Its flux level’s very low. I think it might have been just slightly higher than the EBR-II. But it did a lot of work, ran successfully. Never had a problem—safest reactor in the world. They did retain all the safety features. One of them was a very important one. I don’t know whether you care about this, but the fast reactor, you know, if you have—somebody pulls all the rods out in a thermal reactor, the power level goes up pretty fast. But it’s not an explosive thing. It just goes up enough where it melts everything down. Franklin: Right. Astley: It doesn’t really explode. But in a fast reactor, that’s not true. When you pull all the rods out of a fast reactor, the power level goes up in seconds. Franklin: Wow. Astley: Microsecond. Okay? Dynamite takes to the—so it’s faster than a dynamite, okay? So that is a major problem design. So what that means is, mechanically you can’t do a damn thing. Nothing can respond in that period of time. Just to detect it takes you longer than that. You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So the question we had with the FFTF was what do we do about that? It was funny—one winter I came—I went to work and I put up the garage door, and there was water and ice all over the floor. My water heater had been in the corner, put in the garage, and it was so cold, and the door had been open, left a little bit, and it froze the damn thing. So the safety valve went off. And when I got back, I thought, you know, that’s a good concept. So when this thing happens, this huge explosive force—and I had calculations to go on by the Army, who was doing experiments on what it takes to blow up cylinders and spheres and stuff. So I had a lot of data on what kind of explosive force. So I said what we need to do is have a safety valve of some kind, so when that goes off, the first force blows it open. So we’ve destroyed it; the core’s now going to get hot, it’s going to melt down, but we know how to handle that. But the explosive we’ve got to be taking care of. So I said, I don’t know how—how do we do that. Well, this engineer I had came up with a beautiful idea. He said, well, what I can do is design the bolts that hold down the lid so that that force will pass through the elastic limit and they’ll break and the lid will fly off. Perfect safety. And it’s simultaneous, almost. The pressure gets too high, and it blows. Perfect. So then all’s you had to do is design a big concrete container around it with enough volume to take that expansion. And then we had a core catcher down there that we could cool so that we wouldn’t do the China syndrome where it melts down and goes to China, so to speak. So those kind of things were all put into it. We had a couple physics things to go on at those speeds that were esoteric, but that also helped to cut that explosion down. [VIDEO CUTS] Eugene Astley: Coefficient. Camera man: I’m ready. Robert Franklin: Ready. Can you start that from the beginning? Astley: Huh? Franklin: Can you start that story from the beginning? We’re rolling. You were at a meeting with US and Russian reactor designers. Astley: The Russian was up there explaining the fundamental design of their new reactor group, which included the design of the Chernobyl. He explained what they were doing, and it was obvious to me then, you know, that—in our reactors we under-moderated them because then you get a negative temperature coefficient. So the reactor hopes to—tries to shut itself down. Theirs is going to make it worse. Okay, so, I can’t get up and say anything about this, because if I do, one of the—they say, why are you doing that? Well, I can say, you know, to have a negative temperature coefficient. But I’m not allowed to help them. And furthermore, if you under-moderate, you increase the production of plutonium. And the fact that those physicists didn’t figure that out, it blows my mind, you know? Fermi figured that out. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, in this meeting, then I stood up to ask them a question. And immediately, the guy that’s standing behind him walks up and takes the microphone. Now, this guy gave a speech in really quite good English. And he says, I’m sorry, we’ll let you know that although he can speak English pretty well when he’s practiced it to give the English speech, he really doesn’t understand English very well. So I will interpret for you. So, he answers my question with nonsense. He doesn’t know anything about anything. [LAUGHTER] And so there was no exchange. And then later we had a meeting where you have some drinks and you can mingle around and I hunted this guy down again. And immediately this same guy shows up. So he’s going to conduct the conversation between us. Franklin: Right. Astley: Anyway, later on, that was the Chernobyl. And it had the positive temperature coefficient. Of course it went blooey. You know? Our reactors weren’t like that, but very difficult to explain that to public. Gain any believability. So the scatter was still there. Then we whittled down the reactor. But there was no radiation, because even those reactors were—all our commercial reactors were built with negative temperature coefficients. It’s a safety problem. Everybody in the commercial world was either trained here at Hanford or back at Westinghouse at [UNKNOWN]. So that was sort of long ingrained to us to try to make it as safe as you can be. And that you don’t want to melt something down. That’s an economic problem, not a safety problem. But that’s never been—we’ve never been able to convince people that have a gut feeling that it’s an atomic bomb. And those are the people who prevail. Because those words are much more receptive to get attention of the public. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: Then I guess, as maybe you’re a historian of a type? Well, here is the thing that I think, if there’s one thing in my life that still peeves me—when I got moved from GE, I had a Super Secret clearance. Not just the Q, but one above it. Because I knew how much plutonium we were making and how many caps we were making, bombs we were making, that kind of stuff. And so I had gone out of the library when I had this N Reactor, and looked for—searched things. And I saw some stuff by Fermi. And so I got two of his workbooks, brought them back and started looking. And he had a couple of ideas—particularly one that helped design the control rods, because a control rod is so black. You know, it absorbs all of its neutrons in about that much. And we didn’t have any diffusion—[UNKNOWN] didn’t work for that. And he had some ideas about how he might approach that and how he did approach it. And then he went on to talk about a bunch of other things. You know, ti was all his own handwriting. And he’d scratch out and say, dumb idea. Now, he’d go on and it was a beautiful thing to read. So, when I went to GE, I tried to check those out and take them into Battelle, to take them. But I had lost my clearances. Said, you can’t have them. But if you get a clearance—so when I went over there, I applied for clearances and got them. Six months later, I go back, but some kind of a thing came out from AEC that a certain date type things were no longer considered classified, so burn them. So they burned. Franklin: They burned Fermi’s personal notebooks? Wow. Astley: That irritates me. Franklin: Yeah, that irritates me, too. Especially because I’m an archivist. Astley: Yeah! Franklin: I deal with people’s personal matters and archival material. That’s really a tragedy. Astley: Yeah. But you know, one of the geniuses of our time. Wouldn’t have probably made it without his help, his guidance. You don’t preserve something like that? It’s pretty irritating. Franklin: Yes. What year—when exactly did you come off the FFTF? You said that Westinghouse took over FFTF; were you off the project then when Westinghouse came on? Astley: The which Franklin: Sorry, when— Astley: Oh, when they were breaking up? Franklin: No, you mentioned you were designing FFTF and then Westinghouse— Astley: Took over. Franklin: Were you off the project then? Astley: I asked to get off the project, and— Franklin: Okay, and what year was that? Astley: Probably early ’69, I think. Franklin: Okay. Astley: And so it just happened that the guy that was running the other department, a big one, decided—he was a statistician of note in the world, and that’s really what he liked, and it was really distracting. He didn’t get enough time to work on his own stuff. So at the time that I became available then, a friend who also knew this was going on, and so there was a spot for me to move on, still reporting to him. So I took over, applied theoretical math, applied theoretical physics, world economics, that type of stuff. It suited me pretty well. Franklin: And that was at Battelle? Astley: At Battelle, right. Franklin: Okay. And what other projects did you work on after FFTF? Astley: Well, then I left Battelle in ’71 and joined Exxon Nuclear. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: And became vice president of Exxon Nuclear making fuel. Plus a lot of other things. And during that time, then, I started up the Exxon Nuclear centrifuge program, and also the laser enrichment program. I had both of those. And both of them did very well. The centrifuge project got enough so that we actually bid and won a contract with—I can’t remember whether it was still AEC or—I’m a little confused on timing between AEC to DoE. Can’t tell you. Franklin: Yeah, sure. Astley: One of those guys asked three different organizations to bid on making 50 centrifuges at a cost, fixed price contract and deliver them to Oak Ridge. So they could determine whether or not somebody other than Oak Ridge could make something or [UNKNOWN]. So we bid on it, fixed price. Built them, delivered them within six months. That was our first large [UNKNOWN] They were then put into Oak Ridge and into their cascades, and they were running—they ran for a whole year when they decided to then implement the next stage, which was to build 5,000 of them. In the meantime, Boeing and Goodyear were still negotiating with AEC. And saying that, hey, these are too developmental. No way can we built at cost. So they came out with a new bid. We bid on it. We were the only ones that had any manufacturing experience on centrifuges. We put on a fixed price bid again for the 5,000. And Goodyear and Boeing finally gave up on bidding the 50 and had the same problems with bidding 5,000. Then they opened up the bids and we were eliminated on the basis that we didn’t have manufacturing experience. That we were Exxon, we were chemical engineers, et cetera, whereas Boeing and Goodyear were hardnosed mechanical people. So we were knocked out of that bidding. So my project was shut down. Which was rather hard to take. Since we were, at that time, still at—our centrifuges we made for them up running well, gave them no problems. They started up, they were never shut down in that year. And we had better statistical data than Oak Ridge did on the ones that they had had made. So that knocked us out of that. At that time, we—and I had already gone to the board of directors of Exxon and sat in their thing and got approval to go forward with a $1.5 billion project. Two phases--$900 for the first phase and the rest for the second phase to build an enormous centrifuge phase, which would then put Exxon into the commercial enrichment business, instead of the government. And our prices were going to be 30% lower than theirs, which I thought was a good thing for the American public. But it wasn’t. Franklin: Why wasn’t it? Astley: Because President Carter was in charge. I had a friend of mine who was on—a good friend—who was one of his cabinet. I asked him one day, I told him how we’d got cut out. And I said, I can’t understand that. I mean, what’s wrong? What made that decision? Couldn’t have been [UNKNOWN] And he said, well, don’t tell anybody—and he’s died since, so he’s not in jeopardy—but he said, I sat in the cabinet meeting and it was explained to us by the head of the AEC at that time what the situation was. And they felt that they wanted to work—they were going to award us the contract immediately, but contingent to negotiate with the other people. So then Carter said, who did you say? And they said, Exxon. And he rams his—bam! Exxon’s already controlling the damn energy of the world, I don’t want them meddling in the reactors also [UNKNOWN]. Find some way to disqualify them. That’s what really happened. There’s no record of that. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So it’s not very—I guess you’d call that the height of hearsay. And then about four months later, they shut down the laser plant. And we came in at that point, the boss offered the AEC to continue to operate that, since it was very promising. And it was going to make [UNKNOWN] like 30%. You know, that’s even better than centrifuges. And he offered to operate the plant for a dollar a year, just like DuPont did at the beginning, and continue the thing. And then he said, when the plant first gets on its feet, I’d like to be paid back for the $80 million I’ve invested in this in the operating profits. AEC said, no. We don’t want you involved in this. So they went and said, [UNKNOWN] buy out all your equipment for ten cents on the dollar and we’ll transfer it down to California. Because they’re also experts on lasers. So they shut that down. And a lot of politics involved behind the scenes on this whole nuclear business, which it seemed to me that I had a little black cloud that way. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, there’s kind of a common thread running through a lot of your stories. Astley: Yeah! But that was really the—to try to explain how that laser enrichment worked is a little difficult. Franklin: I’m sure. Astley: For somebody that isn’t technically trained. Franklin: That would be me. Astley: Yeah. That’s all. But that was a beautiful project. But I had already gotten—and then I also had already gotten [UNKNOWN] to go forward with the first step of a fairly large prototype for $50 million. So I had the total board behind me. And in fact, when I went in front of the board of directors at [UNKNOWN], I was supposed to give a thirty minute talk. Because I had to go to the board because I was asking for $1.5 billion. If it had been less than a billion, I could have gone to the management staff instead. That would have been too small for Exxon to worry about at the board level. The only company to do that. In fact, they’re allowed to round their income tax off to the nearest dollar. I think probably things have changed, but—anyway, during that, at the end of an hour and a half, and I’m still talking about this project. Finally, the chairman puts up his hands. Fellows, he said, we’ve kept Mr. Astley here for an hour and a half. He was only supposed to be thirty minutes. I don’t think any more questions we’ll learn any more. And he’s told us everything; we should have enough information at this point whether to go forward with this. And [UNKNOWN] who’d just come back from being Treasurer for whoever was—I don’t remember who it was then—Ford, maybe? Ford, probably. Yeah, I’m sure it was Ford. He’d taken a leave of absence to be Treasurer and came back. He’d just—finally he says, you know, to the chairman, he says, Mr. Chairman, we have enough information to go forward. Let’s show these goddamn AEC people how private industry can do the job. [LAUGHTER] So I got my money. But it didn’t prove to be a giant sinkhole for Exxon. But those kind of things were going on that made my life interesting. Franklin: Yeah. When did you leave Exxon? Astley: I left Exxon in ’83. They were going direction—they wanted to get out of the nuclear business. And they didn’t mind continuing the fuels business because we had such a good reputation for—I think we bid on business since at least ten years. Never had a fuel failure. Anybody who ever produced, which nobody else in the world could claim. And we knew how to make fuel. I was heading up the fuel plant here in Richland at that point and the one in Langer, Germany. But I had other projects going which were very successful and they shut those all down to concentrate simply on fuel. So I’d sort of worked that, and about that time I got a call from Sandvik and they, [UNKNOWN] he said, I’m retiring, and I’d like to talk to about taking over for me. And so I did. It sounded like a good [UNKNOWN], you know? I guess my feeling was it was going to be a lot more fun to be a big fish in a little puddle. So I went in ’83 and retired from there in ’91. During that time, here’s the technology that we—you know, at that time, Sandvik was building nuclear fuel tubes from zirconium for three different companies. Babcock, Wilcox Combustion and Exxon. So that was a direct application of nuclear information. Because the design of all that came from having worked for Hanford [unknown]. And so during that time, it became obviously that the world was shrinking and that there was too many people looking for too few fuel tubes. So I put the company into titanium. And I found out that the aircraft people were moving strongly toward titanium tubing for all of their jets. So I started that as a diversification. And I told Sandvik that I thought within five to ten years that we were very likely to have no more work. I said there’s got to be consolidation. And I thought, ten, twelve years, French bought out Exxon—or Germans began it and they bought out the Germans. And now the group was French, running that plant there. And exactly it happened, so Combustion Engineering was bought by Germans, I think. I can’t remember who. So all of our customers were no longer, so we had no zirconium. So all we did was titanium. And while I was there, I was glad that personally the titanium golf shaft, utilizing nuclear energy technology. Franklin: What is that? Astley: Golf shafts? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: You know, golf. Franklin: Oh! Astley: And when I came in, 99% were using steel. And there were people trying to make using fibers which weren’t very successful. So I introduced titanium and got—the guy I made a friend of, the chairman of TaylorMade who had invented the metal clubs—got him interested in taking a look at titanium heads plus then matching them with a titanium shaft. And got his whole staff there to agree that this shaft was better than anything in the market. But it jumped the price of shafts. I had to charge $18 a shaft. They were paying 50 cents. So that was a big change. And I managed to get that settled in. He said, hey, we’re in a big fight. A driver costs somewhere between $90 and $100. And if you try to get over $100, suddenly they start shying away because they’re pretty much the same. They claim different. But at any rate, I said, well, that’s not what you want to do. I said this gives you the chance to have something that’s uniquely different. So instead of just charging for $18, I mean $99, make your clubs sell for $199. Because you have something to sell. And he said, yeah, he said, you should have been my marketing manager. I said, well, I am, I’m trying to sell you titanium. But anyway, I went out to dinner with him and at the end I said, okay, you’re really enthused about this. So I said I need an order from you. And he said what would you like to have your order start with? And I said, I’d like to start with at least 25,000 shafts the first year. And I’ll give you an exclusive for the first year. So he pulled over a napkin from the bar sort of thing, and he writes on it, I agree to buy 50,000 shafts from Sandvik special models at $18 a shaft with exclusive rights for one year, signed his name. So I took that back to—only way you could do this would be private industry. Go back to my [UNKNOWN] and say hey, here’s the order I just got. He’s a Mormon, doesn’t drink. He said, this looks like a stain on a cocktail napkin to me. And I said, yeah, that’s where I got the order. So he photographs it or something and puts it in. But I imagine if I had been trying to do something at the AEC, that might not have flown. Franklin: Right, yeah. Astley: [LAUGHTER] They’d have at least 15 regulations [UNKNOWN] Franklin: And they’d need it in triplicate, too. Astley: Oh, yeah, right. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about living in Richland during the Cold War. And working at Hanford during that time. You’ve mentioned some previous experiences with Russian scientists. I was wondering if you could talk about how the Cold War affected you and your work and your family. Astley: I think it really didn’t affect us a lot. I lived in north Richland and I built a home there. I think the thing that was interesting was that, first of all, of course, by ’54 there was enough of Richland. So what we used to call the termination winds were not so severe anymore, because we had all the trees and the houses. So it was a little bit more protected. So that didn’t—although even then, we had some pretty fair gust storms compared to now—really bad. And at that time, you didn’t have all these fancy windows. They were all sash windows, so they leaked like a sieve. So every time we had a dust storm, the inside of the house was covered everywhere with a little layer of dust. And I would say that perturbed my wife. [LAUGHTER] And all the other wives. Because that meant a lot of work, you know. It wasn’t as if you just go in and dust something. I mean, the whole damn place had to be vacuumed. All the windows, everything that had a surface. And it wasn’t a minor thing. You could write your name in everything. Fraknlin: Wow. Astley: So that was something, I think, that certainly most of the females probably had to do the work. The kids didn’t care. I think they were kind of oblivious of everything in terms of the Hanford experiences. So I didn’t see much effect there. But in 1960, then, I guess they were probably DoE by then but I’m still not sure. But they then decided to, with the Corps of Engineers, to sell the town and get out of being <a href="https://youtu.be/GBNkByNJDys">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1991 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eugene Astley Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Nuclear power plants Breeder reactors Description An account of the resource Eugene Astley moved to Richland, Washington in 1954. Eugene worked on the Hanford Site from 1954-1991. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/05/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6b4db4212c37a7652631b305e2cbff9a.jpg 0651c8b24a396c46ba1ed5ace42bbf05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donald Baker Location The location of the interview Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Don Baker on April 5, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Don about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Don Baker: My name is Donald E. Baker. It’s spelled D-O-N-A-L-D, initial E., last name B-A-K-E-R. Franklin: Great. And do you prefer to go by—I should’ve asked you before—Don or Donald? Baker: Don is fine. Franklin: Okay. Baker: Either one, I’ll respond. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. So, Don, tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site. Baker: Well, I had heard very little bit about Hanford. But early in the school year, June of—well, it was probably March or April of 1951, an interviewer from Hanford came to the University of Idaho. And I was a graduate student there at the time. I was interviewed for work over here, and then eventually ended up hiring on. I reported for work in Richland on early June of 1951. Franklin: What was your graduate degree in? Baker: My graduate degree was in chemistry. I was part of a group of probably over 200 recent graduates that came in that year, hired on with General Electric. General Electric was the contractor at that time that was in charge of the entire Hanford Project. Franklin: Wow. Okay. Did you have any idea—did you interview for a specific job at Hanford, or--? Baker: No, I didn’t. At that time, really, there was not a lot known to the general public, because it still was a very classified operation that they were running here. So, I just assumed that with my background in chemistry that I would find some interesting work here. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Baker: And I certainly did. Franklin: Yeah. Did you have any other job offers, or had you interviewed in any other places before you--? Baker: No, I really was interested in knowing more about this. This would probably have been my first preference, and definitely after I knew more about it, I knew that I had made a good choice. But the conditions here were, shall we say, a little rustic at that time as far as living conditions. When I reported here, I was offered living accommodations in a barracks-type dormitory building in north Richland. I was there for approximately, oh, maybe two or three weeks. During that time, we were given orientation, lectures and so on. And at the end of that two or three weeks’ time, I was offered to do some work in off-site inspection. Now, offsite inspection was a group of engineers that were following contracts where equipment was being built for Hanford. Quite a ways away from chemistry, but nevertheless, it sounded like an interesting opportunity for me, because it could give me an opportunity to see just what the real world was like, as far as how equipment was fabricated. So, after being here for only about three weeks, I packed my bags and was off to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to a plant that was fabricating approximately one-cubic-foot containers for some work here at Hanford. This was in a foundry-type place where heavy vessels were fabricated. This particular company was known for their huge beer processing vessels that the tanks were made for making beer that were glass-lined. They were made out of carbon steel, and then they would go into a huge furnace where a glaze was put on the inside of the tanks. That was quite a ways away from the type of work that Hanford was requiring them to do. They were making approximately a one-cubic-foot vessel to extremely tight specifications that the people found hard to believe or understand when they first started the job. It was a stainless steel tank that had an off-center pipe in it. It was made to very tight specifications, dimensionally to within one-thousandth to three-thousandths of an inch. And it had a special fitting on the top to connect to equipment that it would be used on here at Hanford. It had to be leak-tight so that it would only leak approximately one cubic centimeter in 30 years. That’s tight. And also, cleanliness specifications that were really unheard of. After the container was fabricated, it would be fired in a huge tank-like furnace with hydrogen present. That would turn this into a shiny metal vessel. From that point on, it could not be touched with bare hands. This was really, really difficult to impress on the people that were fabricating, because they were used to handling anything with whatever old leather gloves they had. Because there was to be no fingerprints or anything like that on there, and it was to be completely clean. Well, that went well, because as soon as they figured the inspectors that were back there would reject anything that they saw was handled without white gloves, they caught on in a hurry, and we had no trouble from then on. The job was completed, and they did an excellent job on making these containers for us. The next assignment that I had after that—that was about three months that we worked on that particular contract. I then went to an aluminum company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They were making aluminum process tubes that would be used in the reactors out here. It was really interesting to me to see the way that they proceeded to make these. They would start out with a billet of aluminum, oh, maybe three or four inches in diameter, with a hole through it. By successively pulling that aluminum through dies, they would reduce it from the original dimension down to a process tube that was approximately an inch-and-three-quarters in diameter and roughly 42 feet long. Not only was it a long tube, it had ridges at about 4:00 and 8:00 to support fuel that would go in there and allow for water circulation all the way around the fuel. So as they would draw this, these little ridges would gradually go down until they were exactly where they were. And also there could be no twist in this, so if the ridges were at 4:00 and 8:00 at one end of the tube, they needed to be at the same location at the other end of the tube. But they were very experienced in dong this type of work, and they proceeded to do a fine job for us. After the tubes were inspected and approved for shipment, they would slide like a cardboard sleeve over the outside to protect them, and then these were placed in long wooden boxes. Now, we hear a lot about recycling, but at that time, it wasn’t in everybody’s vocabulary. But they needed some wooden boxes and somebody out here at Hanford said, you know, we had had some previous orders of these tubes, where are the boxes? And they said, oh, these boxes have been surplused and somebody comes in and they have an auction out there and bought them all up. Well, it turns out that the very boxes that we needed were in a surplus yard out in West Richland. The people here, recycling on their mind, contacted that person, bought them back from him after he had bought them here, shipped them to the plant that was manufacturing the tubes back in Pittsburgh and they loaded them up. Then they had to go in a special rail car. Normally, boxcars have side-opening doors. This had to have an end-opening doors on it, so that the tubes, forty-some feet long could be put in this 50-foot box car. Then a bulkhead was built in the end of the railcar in there so the load could not shift. It was stacked to probably about eight, nine feet high in the boxcar and shipped out here and unloaded out here on the plant. So it was interesting to see how they proceeded to do this. This would’ve been in 1951. Interestingly, that was about the time that commercial household aluminum foil came onto the market. It was much in-demand, especially for the holiday season in December there. The employees and people of this plant could buy a thing of aluminum foil at the company store there when it wasn’t available commonly in the supermarkets and so on. But some of these things, you know, we take for granted now that they’ve just always been there. But this company was making all kinds of things, including process tubes for use at Hanford. Franklin: Interesting. Baker: Then, after that project was completed in three or four months, I think, that we were there, I was assigned to another one in Ohio. The process tubes on the reactor go in through a steel tube that is called a gun barrel. This gun barrel is approximately, I would say maybe seven or eight feet long. It had stepped areas on it so that radiation could not stream out of the reactor; it would be stopped by the steel, different intervals long there. Again, this was something that had to be made to within at least a one-thousandth to three-thousandths clearance on every dimension. It was made of steel. The company that had the contract to make these could not fulfill their contract. They failed, and the contract had to be taken away from them. They were months behind, and they had created a huge pile of scrap and that was all to show for their experience. So the contract was canceled, and it was given to another company that was doing work exclusively for the US Navy. In fact, they even managed to get some of the special tooling that was only available that belonged to the US Navy, and it was applied to our job. They put the job—they got busy on it and came through beautifully, and they were able to use these. Because the construction, really, it was essential. They couldn’t put the process tubes in the reactor that was being built at this time until these components were in place. So, it was pretty straightforward once they got the right people working on the job. Again, they came through and provided what we needed out here. So, this pretty much takes care of my first year of employment here. I came back to Hanford, and I was at that time, I still did not have my security clearance. So I was assigned, though, to the B Reactor area and worked with an engineer there on an efficiency study for the power plant. Some of these seem a ways away from chemistry, but, nevertheless, we did do chemical analysis on the combustion products from the coal plant. They were looking for just small improvements on the efficiency, because coal was a big expense for here as far as producing steam. The steam was needed to heat the facilities out there, but it was also used as part of the high pressure pumping system for the reactor. They had an electric motor, and on that same drive shaft was a steam turbine. So if the electric motor lost its power, the steam turbine would pick up the load and supply high pressure water to the reactor until it would get cooled down. So it was a backup for loss of electric power as well. So I worked at that, and about six weeks after I started in on that project, my security clearance came through. That’s what I’d really been waiting for and I got notice of that in the morning, and in the afternoon, the engineer I was working with, my manager, took me over and showed me B Reactor for the first time. And, of course, I was quite impressed with what I saw. It gave me a chance, too, to see where some of these components that I had observed being made across the country, where they were being used out here at Hanford. So after we finished the steam plant study—and by the way, we found out that they were doing a good job as far as the operators. There wasn’t much that we could uncover that would improve their operation. The thing that really made a difference was with the quality of coal that they were buying. If they bought coal that was of low quality, cheap, they didn’t get good results from it. So that was kind of what we learned from that. But at least we knew that no further improvements could be made as far as we could tell. After that, I spent some time, oh, three or four months with the reactor operations group. Then, I was offered an opportunity to do work on graphite research. Graphite had become a really, really big problem. It was going to be limiting the life of the reactors, and they could see that that was exactly where things were headed. This was, again, in 1952. So, they had two large groups of people, a graphite research and a graphite development group, that were studying what to do with this problem. Meantime, DR Reactor had been built, because they could see its lifetime was fast approaching end-of-life, and the plan was that they could then just switch the water plant when D was shut down over to DR and just move on from there. Well, as it turned out, with all this intensive effort, they found ways that they could minimize the expansion that was incurring in the graphite. Up ‘til that time, they had been keeping it nice and cool with helium atmosphere, you know, and everything. As it turned out, the graphite was really being damaged more by those low temperatures than allowing it to go a little higher in temperature. Because every time a fission reaction would occur, a very energetic neutron, over 2 MeV neutron would be generated, and this would interact with the atoms in the graphite and cause it to swell. So by operating at a little higher temperature, you began to relieve some of these problems. But there was a tremendous amount of research that went into there. We would be putting—I was then with a group that would be putting samples in the reactor, taking them out at six weeks to two month intervals, and measuring them in the 300 Area laboratories, then returning them back to the reactor. This way, we were able to learn a lot about what was happening and how to make the reactor measurements so that we could improve the operating characteristics of the plant. In addition to physical measurements, expansion and so on, they measured the conductivity. This was one of the areas that I got pretty heavily involved with. How well the graphite would conduct heat determines, to a large extent, what the temperature’s going to be in there. So, typically, the traditional method was to take a large cylinder of graphite, put a heater in it, and measure temperatures in it as a function of power input and all that. So, it was about that time that somehow or other, I ran across some work that was being done at a US Naval research laboratory in San Francisco area. So I contacted the physicist down there and asked him about it. He invited me down there. He says, I can’t tell you exactly how or what we’re doing with this, but he says, I can show you our equipment and you can take it from there. So, it was a different approach and exactly what we needed to measure the thermal conductivity of graphite from the reactors out there. What they used was putting a pulse of heat into a very small piece of graphite, smaller than the size of a dime. They would put a pulse of heat in there and then measure how fast that heat pulse traveled through this thin sample. From that, you can derive the thermal conductivity. Just what we were looking for. We were able to build equipment that would go into, from the front face of the reactor, go into an opening in the reactor where the process tube had been removed. The saw would rotate 90 degrees and remove a plug of graphite from the inside of that graphite channel. Then we would take that into our lab, slice it up into pieces, and we could tell exactly how the conductivity was changing from the area where the cold processing tube was in contact with the graphite, to out to the edges of the graphite blocks. This provided us a lot of data that hadn’t previously been available. So we built the equipment here to do that type of measurement. They were using flash tubes as the pulse heat source, but it was flash tubes that would be used for aerial night photography. So these were pretty powerful flash tubes. But approximately a year after we started using that technique, lasers were developed. Then we started using pulse lasers, which were a big improvement. From then on, it was pretty much a standard way of measuring conductivity on small samples. In fact, because that capability was available here, one of the things that had been done was to recover a large amount of technetium. Now, technetium is not available in—normally, it’s an element in the periodic table—I don’t remember just which number, now—but all of it that ever was available, if it was, had since decayed. I think it has about a 4-million-year half-life. Very long half-life. But it is a fission product, and they were able to process enough fission products to come up with technetium that could be converted to the metal. And one of my engineering friends out there worked on this project for quite a while. So we got to talking one day, and I said, what are the chances that I could get small piece of that technetium? He said, just fine, we could make that available to you. So, I was able, then, to report for the first time the thermal conductivity of technetium and report it in the literature. So, I really had some interesting assignments along the way. Much of the work on graphite was documented in a book called Nuclear Graphite. It was compiled, edited, by Dr. Richard Nightingale, brought together a lot of information on radiation damage in graphite material. This led into—well, I’ll go back a step there. Battelle came on the scene in 1965. So my employment then changed from General Electric to Battelle. Franklin: Because you had been working at Hanford Labs, right? Baker: Yes. I was working at Hanford Labs at the time, so that part of it went to Battelle, the research side of it. We continued to do graphite research until about 1968 or ’69. At that point, Westinghouse was given the contract to do some preliminary work on the Fast Flux Test Facility. We had a pretty good handle on the graphite problems at that time. There were still, though, questions on materials for using them in a much higher flux environment in the Fast Flux reactor. So we were assigned the task of doing some testing with boron carbide. Now, boron carbide is another interesting, very high temperature material. It has a melting point of about 2,350 Celsius. Incidentally, the graphite—to go back a step there—is made from petroleum coke and petroleum distillates, some of the byproducts of processing petroleum. When it’s just in the form of coke, it’s similar to the charcoal that we might use in our barbecue. But if it is mixed with other carbonaceous products, made into graphite, and then heated up to 2,700 to 2,900 degrees Celsius in electric furnaces, it will turn it into this material that is used for electrodes in electric furnaces. Electric furnace melting is common in the steel industry. When it came time to produce all the graphite that was needed for the reactors out here, already in industry there were a lot of people who knew a lot about graphite, because they had been in the process of making this into electrodes for many years. So then we—to get back—we moved into the boron carbide research, and work was done at testing facilities in Idaho. The problem with boron carbide is that it produces a helium—an alpha particle, a helium atom for each neutron that it captures. Boron-10 is an excellent absorber of material to use in controlling reactors. But it does have the disadvantage that it produces gases. So, the boron carbide is made in the shape of small pellets about half-inch in diameter. When they’re processed, some of the helium is retained in the crystal structure of the boron carbide pellet, but the rest of it is released into the steel pin that contains it. So, eventually it pressurizes the pin and limits how long a control rod will operate. So, our assignment was to figure out under what conditions the helium gas was released and what improvements could be made to make the boron carbide control rods last as long as possible. There was also another thing that was unknown at that time, and that was if a tube should fail, and if there was sodium flowing past it, would it wash out the boron carbide pellets that was in there or not? Well, we actually set up an experiment to do that. With some facilities back at Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, they were able to flow sodium over a simulated failed pin and we could examine what happened. So, this was the type of work that involved high temperature materials that turned out to be the career that I worked on. It was chemically related, but very materials-oriented. I found it to be a fascinating career to be associated with. It really was something where there were a lot of problems and a lot of challenges. So we were able to supply the answers to a lot of that. So that worked pretty well continued up until the mid, oh, about 1986 or so, when I became involved in a group that was doing experiments in the FFTF. There was a need for information on fusion energy at that time, as to what kind of materials could be used in what they called the blanket of a test machine that was being designed. So, we were able to work with Canadian scientists and Japanese scientists on coming up with a design of an experiment that would be placed in the FFTF. This was probably one of the most difficult, most challenging experiments that I had in my whole career working at Hanford, because the experiment was fully instrumentated so that you could follow everything that was happening, and yet it had to be completely failsafe, so that if the experiment failed, the reactor could continue operating without shutting down. We succeeded in designing the experiment. The Canadian scientists were extremely helpful in designing part of the tritium recovery, because tritium is what we were producing in these tests. Every bit of tritium had to be recovered. We had a large glovebox, it was about 12 feet high with multiple glove ports. We’d reach in at different levels and operate valves and equipment inside of it. Many challenges, and it operated absolutely perfectly the whole time, and it provided a lot of data. Battelle was responsible for compiling, reporting the data at many conferences. The experiment continued until, and an experiment was in place when Hanford received the orders from the Department of Energy that the FFTF had to be shut down and we had to terminate our experiments at that time. But it seemed like we really got a lot of important information as a result of the experiments that were done. It turned out to me to be an exciting career to be involved with. So that kind of summarizes quite a few years of interesting work at Hanford for me. Franklin: What was the tritium used for when that was being created? Baker: The tritium eventually was used for the weapons program. But it was more of a byproduct of a material that was being used for control rods. Because control rods were used in all the reactors out there. Since it could build up pressure inside of the tubes, we needed to know how much. There even was some work that we were involved with in putting a metal sintered—like an escape valve—on some of the pins so that as the gas would be produced, the helium could be released without allowing sodium to go back in. But it was not highly successful and we gave up on that after not too much experimental work. But the combination of sodium being a reactive metal, as it is, we had a lot of challenges, too. Oh, another interesting part of the graphite work that we did was, in addition to looking at dimensional changes that were causing the graphite to expand and contract, in some cases, too, after a certain point, it would contract. So, you had peaks and valleys in a channel through the reactor. They tried to go in and bore that hole out so that it would be easier to slip a process tube through. And in some cases, they were successful, but the graphite, after it’s irradiated becomes extremely hard. They had to use carbon tools to even kind of—we use carbon tools all the time in the laboratory; otherwise, metal saw blades just wouldn’t do it. We had to use diamond blades to cut into it, it was so hard. But we also were interested—once they learned to use a gas mixture: a mixture of CO2 and helium to adjust the temperature. This was the key to controlling the expansion that was limiting the life of the reactors. Once we started using that, then we needed to know, in a radiation field, will carbon dioxide react at a different rate with carbon? Because at a high temperature, CO2 plus carbon will produce carbon monoxide. So we put together our own high-radiation-level cobalt source in the 300 Area. I went out looking again, it was the recycle route. We found a surplus tank that had been used for—was going to be used for some separations processing work, but it was no longer needed. It was about eight feet in diameter and approximately 15 feet tall. We found a building in the 300 Area where we could dig a hole that deep. In fact, we dug it a little deeper than that, and managed to prepare a tank-type facility to make Cobalt-60 irradiation source. The tank was just about even with floor level; went down 14 feet. Filled with water, and had a barrier all the way around the top of it. Filled with distilled water, because we didn’t want to have some of the corrosion products that will happen if you have aluminum in contact with mineral water. But loading it with cobalt was another challenge. We started out with about 15,000 curies of cobalt, which gave us a pretty good source. But it wasn’t what we really needed. So over approximately three or four years, we were able to increase that to 630,000 curies of cobalt-60. That is a lot of cobalt-60. At that time, it was probably the fifth largest cobalt facility in the United States. It had produced radiation levels of approximately 17 million roentgens per hour. It was—without the water shielding over it, the radiation would’ve been lethal in fractions of a second. But, with 14 feet of water shielding us, we could look down at the blue glow, and we would have our experiments suspended above that would go down into one- or two-inch tubes, right down to within an inch or two of the cobalt. The cobalt rods were approximately 16 inches high. The cobalt was made locally, out in the K Reactors. Transporting it was another interesting challenge. We would ship it in from the reactor area in a lead-filled container cask. The container—the cask would be located down into the water, the lid removed, the cobalt elements would be placed into it, the lid would be placed back on the container, it would be brought to the surface of the water, then with all that—it was approximately 40 inches in diameter—with that much lead around the cobalt, we could approach it and they would put very secure bolts in the top of it. But then, it would be removed from the water, and we had an eight-hour time limit to get it from the 100 Areas down to the 300 Area and into water again. Because there were limits on how much heat could be absorbed in the lead shielding. So we had a crane capable of lifting several-ton cask that was set up ahead of time. A section of the roof on this building was removed, the cask would be lowered down through the roof, down into this water-filled tank that we had. We remotely took the cap off, took the cobalt-60 elements out, and we had our own cobalt-60 source for examining materials to see what the effect of gamma radiation would have on the materials. Quite interesting. Whenever they had that shipment, patrol cars would be stationed at each railroad crossing, and the patrol cars stopped the trains while the trucks went through. Franklin: Wow. Baker: But it was planned in advance, and everything worked fine. Franklin: What kinds of materials were you testing next to this cobalt thing for gamma radiation exposure? Baker: We were testing such things as camera lenses, for example. But mainly its justification was to see whether the cobalt—the gamma radiation would enhance the reaction of carbon dioxide with the graphite. Would there be more reaction going on as result of the gamma radiation present than not? What we found was that it wasn’t really significant; it was primarily a temperature-controlled reaction. So we already were aware, pretty much, of what the limitations on the graphite temperatures would be. We had thermal couples to measure—and there were thermal couples also that were built into the graphite moderator stack at the time the reactor was built to measure the temperatures. But on one occasion, we did make a periscope—one of the other engineers that was working in this graphite group made a periscope that fitted into the front face where a process tube had been removed, and it matched up against the seal where this gun-barrel-type-arrangement that penetrated into the graphite stack was. That slid in there, and the light, the glow from the graphite went down a series of mirrors, was reflected back to the other one and back again. So we had a periscope that we could physically use an optical pyrometer and measure the temperature of the graphite using that kind of a device. It was probably the first time—first and only time—that we were able to look into an operating Hanford reactor. But the engineer that was involved with that was a very talented individual. He came up with something that no one else had thought of doing up until that time. Franklin: Wow. And what year would that have been? Baker: That was probably in abut 19—somewhere in the late 1960s. Franklin: Late 1960s. Wow, that’s really quite amazing. Baker: Yeah. No, it was probably earlier than that. Probably early ‘60s. Probably around 1960, ’62, something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. So cobalt, then—cobalt’s a gamma emitter, correct? Baker: Yes, it is. Franklin: So 14 feet of water, then, was enough to blunt the gamma rays, to be able to observe that? Baker: Yes, it was, mm-hmm. It absorbs that radiation. It’s an ideal material because you can look down there and see what you’re doing. You have to have long tong manipulators to work with things, but it has a very penetrating gamma ray that’s emitted, I think it’s around 1.5 MeV. So it’s a very energetic, very penetrating ray. Some gamma rays are—beta particles, for example, do not penetrate like a gamma ray would. But it has a short half life; as I recall, it’s something around five years? 5.7 years, I’m not sure of that. So, half of it would decay. After we’d made the final really big load, we had 630,000, that was pretty much maxed out, as far as the amount of cobalt in that facility and they just continued to use it, probably for at least 25 years after that, exploring effects of gamma radiation on various materials. Franklin: Because then after a certain point, so much of it would’ve been decayed that it’s— Baker: Yeah, a certain amount of it would be decayed. But it still was being used at a time when they started to—well, I guess the cobalt had been removed; the facility was there when they were cleaning up Hanford. Now that facility’s been completely removed, the building and all traces of it, now, I think are gone. But it was used for quite a while. Franklin: That glow you were talking about, that’s what’s called Cherenkov’s radiation? Baker: That’s is the—that’s the name. It’s due to the interaction with the structure of the water, the absorption produces a blueish glow. Have you ever seen that? Franklin: Not naturally, no. I’ve seen photos of it. Baker: It’s beautiful. Now, I think that the reactor, possibly, at WSU, it is a form of a trigger reactor, is it not? And I think that there probably is a similar glow with that, with the reactor that’s over at the Pullman campus. Franklin: Oh, wow. I’ll have to—maybe I’ll get the chance to see that someday. Baker: Sometime when you’re over there, it would be interesting to drop by and have a look at that facility. Franklin: Yeah, it sure would. So you said that you worked on this project with the cobalt and everything at FFTF up until the mid-‘50s, right? And then what did you do after that, after the project— Baker: Well, it was about 1969 when it went into the boron carbide work. The boron carbide work continued until 1986. At that time, I became a part of the group that was doing the design for the joint experiments with the Canadian and Japanese scientists on blanket materials, absorbent materials, for use in the FFTF. That’s when we started designing that facility. I think what made this work so interesting was that usually we were in on the design phase of it. And then followed it through from the fabrication of the experiment, getting all the approvals, safety approvals and so on, actual construction, inserting the experiments into the reactors, starting them up, and collecting the data. So we could see, from start to finish, how the project went. I think this had a lot of value, because that way there was feedback. You could see how you might have done a project in a different way, and it would suggest other ways of doing things. I think, many times, a designer may not have that privilege of being able to see the end result and knowing whether the decisions made in the design were the best ones to make. So I found that that was really an exciting part of doing the work to see something through from start to finish. Franklin: You’ll have to forgive me because I’m not a—I just want to make sure I’m following and understanding everything correctly because I’m not a nuclear scientist. When you say blanket materials, what is a blanket material? Baker: A blanket material is the material that was proposed to go around a fusion energy machine. Now, fusion energy has been—its advances have been very slow and very difficult to come by. But right now there is a fusion machine that is being built in France. But they need to confine a plasma to get the fusion of deuterium and tritium, or various elements at the low end of the periodic table, to fuse together to release energy. The fission energy comes from the process of fissioning elements at the high end of the periodic table. In fusion energy, the work that is being done, they are proposing that there would be an intense field of neutrons present, and that some of these neutrons could be absorbed in what they call the blanket. The blanket was the area immediately surrounding where the fusion is taking place. So we were just doing materials, evaluating them, to serve as materials that could surround—that would be in the area surrounding a fusion energy device, and absorb these neutrons, thereby making some tritium that could be circulated back into the fusion machine so it could be making some of its fuel. Products typically—lithium, when you bombard lithium with neutrons, you will produce tritium from that. So many of the materials that have been proposed have followed the use of lithium. So the work that we were doing in FFTF was examining potential materials that could be used in a fusion apparatus. Franklin: So that’s not shielding, then, that’s materials to help, I guess in a way, moderate the reaction, but capture that tritium to recycle back into the— Baker: Exactly! That’s a good way—it would be a way of producing more fuel that could be used to fusion, yes. Franklin: Because fusion is bringing the atoms together, right, which produces an immense amount of energy— Baker: That is true. Franklin: So is that blanket material there also there to capture that enormous amount of energy? Or is that just to capture the other atoms made by this fusion? Baker: It’s more, I think, to capture the neutrons to provide a feedback of process for fuels to make more tritium atoms to put back into the process to keep it going. Franklin: Oh, wow, wow. Baker: So that was the purpose of working on those materials for that. Franklin: Oh, that’s really fascinating. So now we’re just—France, you said, is building the first fusion reactor. Baker: Yes. There are other nations—I’m not sure which nations now are involved, but France has been behind this for a long time. Interest by the United States lagged for a little while, oh, probably ten, 15 years ago. They had cut back some on the support for that. But then some advances were made, and it looked like it was really something that the United States should be involved with, so they are still a participant in the fusion energy research that’s going on. Franklin: How long did you work on this blanket material project with Canada and Japanese scientists? Baker: Well, it went from 1986 until, I believe the FFTF reactor was shut down in 1992. So that six-year period was when we were working with the Canadian and Japanese scientists. The Canadians had much experience in tritium work, because they use heavy water reactors. The heavy water reactors do produce some tritium in the process. So some of us took classes up there in how to safely handle and capture tritium. What the Canadians came up with, their contribution to this project was that in the FFTF, when we would be irradiating these materials and making tritium, we would be able to adjust the temperatures and look at how fast the tritium was released from the material, depending on the temperature and what other gases were present. This sort of information. All of the tritium that was produced, it had to be—it was swept out of the reactor, a helium line went in with extremely high—less than one part per million of impurities in the helium, because we didn’t want any activation of any impurities in the gas to be swept out of the reactor. And that gas, the sweep gas, that went down over the samples, came back out, went into all the instrumentation that was in this large glovebox. So, we had to capture all of the tritium that we made. None of it escaped to the outside at all. So the Canadians came up with highly efficient materials that were combination of zirconium and some other elements to capture that tritium. They would actually form hydrides or trihydrides as a combination that they would react with and tie it up so that it was a stable compound. It would—since the tritium has a very soft beta emission, we would typically have maybe a couple thousand curies of tritium in a tube that was approximately an inch-and-a-quarter in diameter by about 12 inches long. But it was completely shielded; you couldn’t detect any information on the outside of the capsule, yet it contained huge amounts of tritium. But it was all captured, and that’s what the glovebox—it contained all of the materials, the chemical materials, that were needed to capture the tritium. Franklin: Wow, that’s interesting. So the hydrogen would be able to sweep up, basically, the tritium and become tritium-laden, then? Baker: Yes, that’s right. The helium— Franklin: Helium, sorry. Baker: The helium would sweep out all the tritium. In some cases, if we used a little bit of hydrogen mixed in with this ultra-high-purity helium, then we’d be able to sweep it out much faster. It seems like the materials would react with our samples and we would sweep it out so we would see rapid releases of tritium from the material. Which was important information to have, because if you’re going to extract this from a fusion machine, you might want to know how to get it out of your compounds faster. So those experiments continued on, then, until FFTF shut down. And then I worked for about three more years after that on instrumentation for the waste tanks out at Hanford. Much of it was involved with that tank that would periodically release bursts of gas. Franklin: The burping tank. Baker: The burping tank, yes. That was instrumented, too. They had various kinds of gas instrumentation installed right there at the tank. The controls for it were in a trailer park right next to the Tank Farm fence. So we had continuous monitoring on that. I was involved in some of the operation and maintenance of the helium gas analysis equipment. Franklin: Oh, wow. Baker: So I worked on that until I retired then. Franklin: And you retired in 1995? Baker: ‘95, yes. Franklin: So, what, 44 years. Baker: 44 years I had worked out there. I can think of nothing in the way that I really want to change. I always felt that we were working very safely. I feel that we really had a good knowledge of what we were doing at the time. Franklin: Sure. I want to come back to a couple things you mentioned earlier. Maybe just ask you more about the social/cultural aspects of living in Richland. So when you mentioned you’d moved into a dorm for your first few weeks here in north Richland, which I imagine—those were dorms for the Hanford construction camp, right? Baker: Yes, they had used some for that and some for other workers, because all of the housing, even in downtown Richland, was controlled by the government. So you got on a list and you got high enough priority, then you could move to a more desirable location. So by the time I came back after traveling around the country for a year, I’d moved up on the list and was eligible for a dorm in downtown Richland. These dorms were built on Jadwin between Swift and—what’s the next street north of there? Not Symons. Franklin: Williams? Baker: Williams, yeah. The dorms were located in that general area there. And then there were some other dorms for the women employees that were down approximately where the Albertson’s store is now. Franklin: Right, right. We have photos of those. Baker: Those were the two locations fro those. I was in the dorms for only, oh, maybe about three years. Or, not the dorms. Yeah. The single dorm rooms. And then I was able to get an apartment on Gribble Street. There were some apartments along there, and I rented an apartment there for a while until I then later bought my own house in Richland. Franklin: Your dorm—so, were there mess halls that went with the dorms, or were you—did they have kitchens? I’m wondering if you could describe the dorms for me, kind of how that living arrangement worked. Baker: The dorms were single occupancy rooms. You know, as a matter of fact, there may still be one of those in use in the City of Richland. Franklin: I’ve heard there’s one off Jadwin. Baker: On Jadwin. It is—where is that, I can see it— Franklin: Someone told me— Baker: It’s on Van Giesen. Franklin: Van Giesen, right, right. Baker: I think it’s on Van Giesen between George Washington Way and Jadwin. Franklin: Yeah, they said it’s by the 7 Eleven. Baker: Yes, there’s a 7 Eleven on the corner of Jadwin and Van Giesen, and about halfway down that block, on the north side is one little building. I think it still may have rooms for people that rent that just want a dorm-type room. Franklin: Interesting. I drive that way home everyday. I’m going to see if I can find it. Baker: I’m going to look again, too. Look and see if it’s not still there. Franklin: Because those would’ve been the Alphabet House dorms, right? I think they were the J— Baker: No, I think they were—even—they were mostly—Ms and Ws. There was an M-1, M-2, M-3. I lived in M-5 for a while. And the women’s dorms were similarly numbered W such-and-such. Franklin: Right, the Army gets very creative with its naming system. Baker: And there were some restaurants and cafeterias in Richland. One of the cafeteria-type operations was on that corner, just across from where the Federal Building is right now, at the corner of Knight and Jadwin. It was on the southwest corner. They had a large eating facility in there. But that was pretty much the way that—the dorms were all right. One of the things that I do kind of remember there, you know, you’re going to have a mix of all kinds of people in a dorm like that. Well, one of the occupants decided he was going to make some homebrew. So he brewed up this and then put the caps on it and everything. He had his own bottle capper. And then he put them under his bed in the room. Well, this tends—especially if you haven’t processed it right, it will generate some CO2 gas. Franklin: Yeah, it will. Baker: In the middle of the night, these started going off, almost simultaneously, more than one. So as the cap would blow off, the beer would come out, it would soak all the bottom of the bedding. When you walked down the hall, you would think that you were in the local tavern, because it really smelled of—so, he could no longer hide the fact that he was making some homebrew in his dorm room. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Did you say—you mentioned that there would be all kinds of people in there. So was it a mix of blue and white collar workers or people of all different jobs? Baker: Yes, it was. It was kind of a mix of blue and white collar, mm-hmm. It really was. Franklin: And it would’ve been all single men, right? Baker: All single men. And single women. Some of the women worked at the hospital, they worked in the schools in Richland. But, yeah, that’s pretty much the way it was. Franklin: I wonder if you could describe to me your first impressions of Richland, coming in in June of ’51, coming into this government town where there was no private property and everything was government-owned. Baker: Yeah. Well, it was really foreign to my way of thinking. But it seemed like—there was real effort, once the property was sold. People could buy their homes and businesses were encouraged to come in to make it more normal. But it was not—it was unusual circumstances to be in. And you really didn’t have the freedom of choice, shall we say, as to what you could do. You knew that if you were in the government housing that you were only qualified for certain types of housing, depending on how long you’d been here, your marital status, whether you were single or married, whether you had children. If you had more children, then you were entitled to a house with more bedrooms. People just kind of adapted to what the conditions were at that time. There really were a lot of young people at the time that were living here that were attracted to this area. They were a very enthusiastic group. There were a lot of social activities, groups that even to this day still exist. There was a ski club that was very popular with the young people. Sometimes they would take off for, especially a three-day weekend. We could get on a train at Pasco, go to Spokane and switch to another train, and go over to Missoula, Montana and ski at Big Mountain at Whitefish. We would arrive over there about 5:00 in the morning and go out and have a full day on the slopes for a couple days. Then jump on the train, get back in. That first day back was kind of rough, though, because we were getting in early in the morning and have to get to work at 7:30 in the morning. But it worked out fine. Other times, there were bus trips, chartered buses took us to Sun Valley for skiing, some of the mountains up in Canada. It was really a lot of fun. Border crossings were fairly simple at that time. You’d come back and they weren’t supposed to—they were only supposed to bring a certain amount of alcoholic beverages back from Canada because of the alcohol laws in the State of Washington at that time. So when we’d be coming back, typically, a border security officer would step inside the bus and look and say, well, did you have a good time up here? Yeah, we had a good time. Okay. That was the end of it. They wouldn’t check to see whether everybody was within the limits allowed or not. But you never knew when they would check. But the security was very much unlike how it is now as far as border crossings. Franklin: Yeah, kind of a different time, huh? Baker: Yeah, a different time. Franklin: You mentioned there were a lot of young people. Did that strike you, that there weren’t a lot of established families at Hanford? That most people here—because you had to work at Hanford to live in Richland. Baker: Yeah, that seemed—but I think—the town was pretty full. It was an unusual condition, but it seemed like there was always so much going on with this group of people, that they made things happen for themselves. I recall—this was back in probably the early ‘50s, we had an engineer join our group working on the graphite. He was from the Boston area. That man continually complained. There’s nothing to do, there’s this, there’s that, I don’t have, I can’t go to see the latest operas, I can’t—and we said, you know, there’s a lot to do here—and there was. But he complained so much, people reminded him occasionally: well, you can always go back. And certainly, sure enough, he only stayed here about three years. He couldn’t take it. He was the type of person that needed that big city environment to exist. It just wasn’t the place for it. And so he left. And the area was probably better because we didn’t have him around complaining. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Was the Uptown finished by the time you got here? Baker: It was underway—it was just kind of being developed, yeah. The stores were going in and they were gradually—but it was about that time when the Uptown was being developed. But there was a lot of—still, a lot of sagebrush around. Even when some of the ranch houses were built out on the west side along the bypass highway right now, they would frequently run into large groups of rattlesnakes that would be locally in one area. They would have to get rid of them. There were some things here, you know, that you wouldn’t expect. But rattlesnakes were— One of the things that they had to be careful even in the 300 Area, if some of the buildings had a crawlspace underneath where the maintenance personnel would have to climb under there to work on waterlines and steam valves and other things, and they had to be extremely careful, because there was—Well, one time right in 306 Building, I was working out there one evening. Working late. I was on the second floor, and the only other person was a janitor who was working on the first floor. All of the sudden, I heard this scream, and I thought, what is going on?! Did somebody break in and attack that janitor? I knew it was the janitor. She was absolutely panicked. She was up against the wall in one of the restrooms that was downstairs. The entrance to the restroom door was within two feet of the outside door. A rattlesnake had come in from the outside and made its way into the restroom. She went in to empty the waste basket; she picked it up and she was facing this rattlesnake. She froze and just let out this scream. I went down there and saw what was under control, and she couldn’t hardly talk. So I said, well, we have a way to handle such situations. Don’t worry. We called the person that really—when this sort of thing happened, there was always somebody in the power plant there—the steam plant, that could help out. The person was really an accomplished snake handler. He came over with a plastic bag inside of a wastebasket. He approached the snake, put the wastebasket and plastic bag over it, gently pulled the plastic bag up around it, captured the snake in the plastic bag, and proceeded to walk out the door with this rattlesnake. The last that ever happened. But, oh, that janitor and I, we often joked about that incident. But at the time, you know, it was very serious. Franklin: Oh, sure. Baker: But the outcome was fine. [LAUGHTER] The snake was returned to its desert environment. Franklin: Right, right. Well, I mean, they were—they did predate humans here, so— Baker: Oh, yes, yes, and there were a lot of snakes. Well, in fact, I belong to a mountain climbing group that typically every January 1st would climb Badger Mountain. They still do. On January 1st. One year, we went out there, and it was kind of a warm sunny day. We were all surprised to see a rattlesnake sunning itself out on a rock on the top—very top of Badger on that January 1st day. So, I couldn’t believe it, but I actually saw it happen. So you do have to be a little careful, I think, to this day, climbing Badger, not to venture off too far from the trail into areas unless you have high boots on and are prepared for encountering a rattlesnake. Franklin: Wow. No thank you. Baker: Me, either. Franklin: What other kinds of social activities did you partake in in Richland? Baker: Well, one of the activities that I really got involved with was what was then called the Richland Opera Group. They put on one or two Broadway-type productions. I usually worked behind the scenes: sound, lighting, that part of the stage group. But I appeared, I think, in two shows in a walk-on-type situation as part of a crowd scene. I think that was in Fiddler on the Roof, was one of them. But anyway, that was a really good group of people. In fact, it happened to be the place where I met my wife. She was playing in the orchestra at the time. So there were activities if one wanted to—you really didn’t have to search very hard to find interesting things to do. There was no lack of things for me to do. I didn’t have the feeling at all like the Bostonian, that I needed to get out of town to find some entertainment. Franklin: When did you meet your wife? Baker: Pardon? Franklin: When did you meet your wife? Baker: It was probably in the late ‘60s. First she was frequently playing in the orchestras and I was working on the shows. So that was the place where we met, was through the light opera group. Very—it was a fun group and entertaining group. You never were quite sure how the shows—there were some shows that involved a lot of children, like The Sound of Music, they would double cast the show, because in one case I remember just about two weeks before the show was scheduled to go on, the measles—there wasn’t all the vaccines then, and one of the kids in the group caught the measles. But they were over it by the time the show was ready to go on stage for the audience. It was something that—always some surprises along the way. Franklin: Right, kind of shook everybody up. Did you ever buy an Alphabet House or live in an Alphabet House? Baker: No, I didn’t. I had considered it at the time, but I bought one of the newer houses, then, when I finally got around to buying. I lived in the apartments down there for probably about eight years or so, and I thought, oh, this is kind of stupid. I might as well be living in a house of my own and I could do what I wanted with it. So that’s what I did. I got busy with that and became a homeowner. But there were still the interesting things, a lot going on if anybody wanted. I got involved with amateur radio operations, became a part of that group, and served with some emergency communications preparations groups. To this day, the amateur radio operations are a part of the emergency center that we have in south Richland down there to serve as a backup. Because in many times, they will have the equipment battery operated or even generator operated power sources that can be used for emergency communication. Because I think a lot of people feel overconfident with their cell phones nowadays, but cell phones, after all, also require electricity to run. Franklin: They do, indeed! Baker: Oftentimes, the amateur radio can get through when other communications may fail. It was part of the technology challenge, I think, of some of these things. I went ahead and studied and progressed through the range of licenses that you can get to be licensed. Had my own station and so on. I get busy with other things like my work. But still, I am a licensed operator and have some equipment to get on the air with that. Franklin: Oh, cool. Baker: Yeah, it’s—like I say, the things—it seemed that I tended to move toward the more technical aspects of even the recreation and the social, where it was the technical side of the light opera shows that I participated in. But I always found—I never lacked for something to do. I always found something that was interesting to do. Franklin: Did this radio service start out as a civil defense measure? Baker: Well, it dates back a long, long ways, where the certain frequencies were set aside more for experimentation so that operators could come up with new equipment, new developments, antenna improvements and that sort of thing. So continuing to this day, there are certain frequencies that are set aside. As times have changed, and we’ve gone more to digital communications, there is a digital mode of communications that I’m working on right now to try to get that on the air that involves very little power. If you could imagine something two to three watts, barely the amount of power that it takes for a nightlight, and use that power on a transmitter to talk to Europe, is I think something that I want to do. And it’s being done all the time right now. But that’s the sort of things—you know, again, there are people that continually work on contesting to see how many others they can talk to, whereas others are looking at the equipment, and how to improve what we have. So, there’s something there, even if you want to, you could do digital TV. There are some frequencies set aside for amateur radio experimenters in that field as well. Franklin: Oh, cool. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: --company? Baker: The Savanna River—oh, yeah, the company that was— Franklin: In Milwaukee— Baker: A.O. Smith. They’re the ones that make the water—I think to this day they, they make glass-lined water heaters. They used to. Franklin: You’re saying A-O or ale? Baker: A. O. Letter A, O, Smith, S-M-I-T-H, was the company. The other—Alcoa was the company in Pittsburgh that I referred to. Franklin: I’ve heard of—Alcoa’s a big company. Baker: Oh, they’re big. Yeah, generally they went to experienced contractors that they knew could do the job for them, they would do a good job. Franklin: Oh, sure. Baker: You know. And some of them were difficult— Franklin: We ready? Okay! Just a couple more questions. I’m wondering if you—I want to ask you a couple milestones in Tri-Cities history. Do you remember any of the Atomic Frontier Days parades or Richland Days parades, and did you go to any of those or— Baker: Oh, maybe a few of them. It seemed like the Atomic days parades didn’t last too long. It seemed to quickly became a Tri-Cities area event. Then with bringing the boat races in and so on, it was something that was more that the whole Tri-Cities event. Again, it was perhaps an unfortunate event. I was working with radio operators, again, providing emergency communications at one of the boat races. This was probably back in the late ‘60s, perhaps. Unfortunately, there was a lot of drug activity going on at that time. I was attached to a Red Cross first aid group. Someone in a group came and asked for help from the Red Cross that someone had crawled under a car, and somebody else had jumped on the hood and had come down. The person had a head injury from this person jumping on the car. The Red Cross person evaluated the situation right away and wanted to call an ambulance for help. The friends would not agree to this, because the person was on drugs. They said, if you call them, he’s going to be charged with drug usage. They held off, probably for at least a half an hour. They finally relented and said, well, maybe we’d better just take a chance and call and have it checked out. And they did. But after that, the boat races never had the attraction for me. I was really disturbed by the action of some people that would endanger the life of a friend just to protect them from a drug charge. I never participated in any more radio activities with the boat races. That was the end of it for me. Franklin: I’m wondering if—do you remember the JFK visit in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor? Baker: Yes, I do remember that time. It was very exciting to have the president here for that. Franklin: Were you there that day? Baker: I did not go out to it, but we saw the caravan moving out. It moved right past the 300 Area and went out to the dedication ceremony. But, yes, that was an exciting time for the Tri-Cities, for sure. Franklin: What do you—what about, were you here for President Nixon’s visit, as well? Baker: I don’t recall much of that. But as a part of my amateur radio activities, I had attended a Northwest convention in Seaside, Oregon. They have one of those every year. We had a speaker there that had been the radio person on Air Force One for several presidents. I think he had served in that position for over 30 years. He told us that he was on the flight that took Nixon to China the first time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Baker: And he said that he got a call in the middle of the night. He said, Air Force One has to be ready to go all the time. Any time you want to go. He got a call late in the evening and they said, be ready to go, we’re leaving in something like two hours. And we’ll be at the airport or wherever it was supposed to be. And he said, well, what kind of clothes shall I take? Can’t tell you. Anything I need to do? Just be there. Even the person that will be on the plane with the president didn’t know where they were going until he was on the plane with the president and discovered that they were going to China. That’s how secret that particular operation was. But he traveled with several of the presidents and he had some really interesting tales, as you can imagine someone that served that long, and had an interesting job. Franklin: Yeah. I wonder if you could ruminate, maybe, on the Chernobyl accident and how it affected the community here and how people—or how you reacted to it and how others in the community reacted to it. Baker: Well, we were really—we didn’t know that much about the Russian reactors. We knew that they had graphite-moderated reactors, the same as we had. There was a great concern, because one of the topics that I did not mention earlier was that in the process of graphite being damaged by neutrons contacting the atoms in the graphite crystalline structure, sometimes the atoms would be displaced. Graphite has a crystalline structure, a layered structure. So sometimes atoms would be displaced, and this would eventually cause some of the overall expansion that we were seeing. These atoms, as the temperature was increased, could return to a more stable lattice position, and in the process release energy. This energy was called stored energy. Now, there was an incident in stored energy that happened at wind scale. It only went for a small area in the reactor, and then it kind of self-propagates for a while, and then it terminates, depending on the conditions. But we knew that there was a chance for one of these temperature excursions. I believe that, well, it was related, too, to the Chernobyl incident, because they had some temperatures that went up quite high in that incident, and undoubtedly some of it was as a result of graphite damage—the energy being released. So we had monitored that situation in Hanford reactors for a long time. So some of these samples that we would take out of there, we knew that there was very little concern at that time of releasing stored energy, because we had raised the temperatures enough in the reactor that this was no longer a problem. It’s only when the graphite is operated at a low temperature that stored energy becomes—can become a serious problem, and one that you have to be aware of. So the Chernobyl, we were aware of what was going on. But it had a little different dimensional situation. It had some unfortunate design characteristics that weren’t—looking back now—the best thing to do in the design of a reactor. But there was great interest here in seeing whether we would have any problems related with graphite. And it turned out we didn’t have to do anything differently than we had been doing for years before that. Franklin: But this stored energy, if enough of it was in the reactor, could cause—could release enough heat where the reactor itself could overheat? Baker: Definitely. That is the case, yes. Franklin: I see. Baker: There was a small reactor, I think a Brookhaven reactor, and that was an air-cooled reactor. So it didn’t operate at high levels for a long time, but nevertheless, it was definitely a concern with the people reacting that, because it’s the low temperature, long time periods that will cause that stored energy-type damage. Franklin: Interesting. Wow. Baker: Yeah. Franklin: One of my last questions. So, you were—I think your career is really remarkable because you came here in this kind of early ‘50s when the construction’s ramping up, and then you saw the eventual draw-down and probably the fight to save the different reactors, N and FFTF, and you were still working here when the decision was made to shift from production to cleanup and that whole mission changed. I’m wondering if you could describe your overall feelings and recollections on that shift between cleanup and how it affected you and how it affected your coworkers, the people you worked with. Baker: Yeah. Well, I think that we could see that with the shutting down of the reactors that the place would be entirely different. It was hoped by many people that there would be more power generating facilities built here by Energy—WPPSS at that time. But that wasn’t to be. I think many of us were encouraged to see that something that should’ve been done much earlier in the way of processing the waste was finally going to be recognized and people could move forward with that task. The approach that they’ve taken has been a long one and a very costly one, but they are making progress to converting that waste from a liquid form to a solid form for storage, and I think everyone is very happy to see that happen, wants to see it proceed as quickly as can be. But as far as the research opportunities, even though there were budget uncertainties along the way and as we see the reactors were shut down, it seems like there was always something else for us, a next step to see in the way of the research side. Like the FFTF work, and Battelle was steadily increasing their staff on research and doing other types of research, both government and private. So it still seemed like a good place to work and be and this area has so much to offer. It really does. And so most of us didn’t give too much thought in moving immediately because we were afraid that the place was going to just deteriorate and go back to sagebrush. We could see that there was more ahead for the Tri-City area and stayed here and enjoyed it until now. Franklin: So are you saying that there was a general feeling, at least among some of the workers, that the cleanup—that dealing with the waste problem should’ve been tackled earlier on in the cycle? Because you said you were happy that something which should’ve done earlier was finally being done. Do you think there was a general feeling that that should’ve been handled earlier on than kind of waiting—making that the main focus should’ve happened earlier--? Baker: I think a lot of people felt that way. Because everybody knows that there was a finite lifetime to these tanks, and they were well beyond their designed expectancy, you know, that they would be a suitable place to store waste. So I think that they were really wanting to see this proceed. The facility that they’re designing out there is extremely complicated. Savanna River has been vitrifying waste for quite a while, but on a smaller scale. It will be good to see the facilities out here finally end up producing solidified waste for storage, because it definitely needs to be done. We can’t keep it in the liquid form forever like that, without expecting deterioration in the tanks and so on, the very sorts of problems that we’re experiencing right now. Franklin: Sure. I wonder, how did you—living and working at Hanford through so much of the Cold War, did you ever feel an immediacy of the Cold War on your work, or did you ever feel that your work was linked to different events in the Cold War? How much of a presence of that was in your life? Baker: Not really a lot—we didn’t really think too much about that. Our focus was more short-term, perhaps, solving the problems at the time. The one of getting the graphite expansion, which was limiting the life of the reactors, was a big, big effort to solve that. So on a day-to-day basis, I don’t think that the result of this and its tie-in with the Cold War—didn’t seem to have a big impact on the people that I associated with. Franklin: Mm. And my last question, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Baker: I think that they should know that, personally, I felt that I was working in a very safe environment. I did not feel that I was endangering my health in any way during that time. Sincerely, they had very ambitious schedules going on to meet, but nevertheless, it was always done with safety in mind. I think that bears it out, because we have had excellent safety record here. So I feel that I was probably safer working here than in some industrial environments. I really do. Franklin: Well, Don, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time— Baker: You’re welcome. Franklin: --to come and talk to us today. Baker: Yeah. Franklin: Great. <a href="https://youtu.be/oHe1y9saIWg">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor D Reactor DR Reactor 300 Area FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 100 Areas N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald Baker Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) West Richland (Wash.) Chemistry Nuclear reactors Radiation Description An account of the resource Donald Baker moved to Richland, Washington in 1951. Don worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1995. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/05/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O'Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Del Ballard Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Del Ballard: I’m not accustomed to this, so you get what you get. Douglas O’Reagan: All the better, all the better. Sometimes we get some rehearsed answers, that is fine. But all the better if somebody gives me something that they haven’t exactly honed their exact phrasing on. Ballard: We just put together one for the BRMA history—history of BRMA. That was all written out, so it was—but I’m amazed at how much insistence they have at no corrections, no—[LAUGHTER] Pretty trying. O’Reagan: Okay, great. So let’s start off here. First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Ballard: Well, my first name is Delbert L. Ballard. Leo for center. D-E-L-B-E-R-T, B-A-L-L-A-R-D. And I go by Del, commonly. O’Reagan: All right, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview here on February 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Ballard about his experiences working on the Hanford site, living in this community. First of all, can you start us off just—walk us through your life in sort of a brief term before you came to this area. Ballard: Well, I was raised on a dryland wheat farm in Montana, so I know what work is all about. And I was a student in a little high school that was only seven of us in our graduating class. So I was sort of a country boy, and went to college at Montana State University. And I graduated from there in 1951. Just prior to that, the General Electric Company, of course, had been there to do interviews. They were scoping for—recruiting for engineers and I was a civil engineer graduate. There was other recruiters through, too. I had an offer from a San Francisco shipyard, and another from the Soil Conservation Service in Montana. But I wanted to get a job with GE. So I’d had the interview, but no really positive award or recognition that they were going to give me an offer. They were interviewing a large number of people. So graduation day came around and I still hadn’t gotten a letter from GE. But the mail came that morning, and lo and behold, there it was. So I was really pleased at that. So my initial job right out of college was coming to Hanford and working for General Electric Company as a rotational training—in the rotational training program. They had hired that year, the previous year, actually ’49, ’50 and ’51, they had hired about 300 or 350 tech grads. And I was one of the later ones getting here; I didn’t get here until July. So most of the good jobs were assigned. But in the rotational training program, my first assignment was a rather mundane assignment to the transportation department. Next one was a more interesting job with the inspection department. That was over in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, Hanford was undergoing I believed what they called the Korean expansion. The Korean War was underway and in full force at that time when I got out of school. As a matter of fact, I thought I was going to be drafted, but I tried to enlist and—I’m diverting here a little bit, but—tried to enlist in the Air Force to be a pilot, but my eyes weren’t good enough, so I got rejected for that. [LAUGHTER] So when I knew that the GE job was a deferred job, I thought, well, that’s an alternate I’d just as soon pursue. So anyway when I got here on the rotational training program, that’s what it was. Individuals were assigned to different locations for training purposes and for filling job needs. The second assignment was, as I said, inspection department in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, they were fabricating—the shipyard was fabricating the biological shield blocks for the C Reactor. It was one of the expansion efforts at Hanford, increasing the production capacity. So that was an interesting job over there at the shipyard doing inspection and learning a lot about inspection techniques and components and so forth. Another month after that, I was rotating around the Seattle area inspecting other components that were being manufactured for the C Reactor. C Reactor, as you know, was the one that was built right alongside of the B Reactor out at Hanford. It started up in ’53, I believe. But out of the rotational training program, I was assigned into construction area out in the 300 Area. They were fabricating laboratories for building the laboratories out there. Radiochemistry, radiometallurgy, pile tech, machine shop, and a library at that area of the Hanford—300 Area was just under construction. So I got assigned to help in the field engineering in that job. It was an interesting project. I learned a lot there in that job. And from there I went into other project engineering work, including in later years, the K Reactors were under construction and I was involved in laying up the graphite of that reactor, K East Reactors. I stayed in project engineering with GE all my life—or all my employment time was with GE. They left here in ’64. Yeah, Battelle came in ’65. Two of the projects that I followed after K Reactors, one of them was the critical mass lab in the 300 Area, which was a facility for evaluating critical shapes and sizes for plutonium missiles. It was a research job, research facility. That project was a lump sum construction and plant forces for the completion of putting the process equipment in. The next job I had was the High Temperature Lattice Test reactor in the 300 Area. That’s a reactor that probably hasn’t gotten much publicity. It was a small graphite reactor. But that was a job I was very proud of, because I was the sole project engineering function at the time. The design was done by an organization that was just brought on as GE was being phased out. It was the Vitro Engineering Company. They had a detailed design of the job, and the construction was done lump sum, and then J. Jones did the reactor installation. I can tell quite a bit of detail about that reactor, if you’re interesting. [LAUGHTER] But it was an experimental facility also for evaluating different lattice spacings for graphite moderator reactors. It was electrically heated—it operated up at 1,000 degrees centigrade, so that graphite, looking through the peepholes in the reactor, you could see white hot graphite, which is sort of an interesting thing to see. But that project was not large in comparison to today’s funding levels. But it was a three- to four-million-dollar project. I finished the job and closed it out with less than $200 left on the books and no overrun. [LAUGHTER] So I got a commendation for that job, which I was quite proud of. But from there, then I diverted into other project engineering jobs. One was in Idaho Falls. We had a test facility over there, putting in test loops in the engineering test reactor. That was closer to reactor operations type work. We had to modify an operating reactor. But that was some of my interesting project years before I got into jobs later on, which was the FFTF and the FMEF. Fuels and Materials Exam Facility. I always make the statement that every project, or every job that I worked on up until the FFTF was completed and put into operation. Every project after FFTF was shut down and closed down before it was completed. [LAUGHTER] So that was kind of a breaking point for me. Hanford, of course, reached its peak in production, and I can talk something about that as far as reactor operations is concerned. But I wasn’t really in operations, I was in engineering, and had jobs all over the Project. So I never was tied down to one location. It was interesting. So I had an interesting career in a lot of different projects. I enjoyed my work, and had a good time and a good married life and I can go into that, too, if you wish. O’Reagan: So you say you were with GE this whole time? You didn’t switch over to different contractors as they came in? Ballard: Well, yes—no. I just with GE until they left. O’Reagan: I see. Ballard: And then Battelle came in ’65. So I was with Battelle for ’65 until ’70 when Westinghouse took over the Breeder Program. Initially, Westinghouse was just brought in for the Fast Flux Test Reactor, to manage that. And I happened to be working on a development job. That’s one I haven’t mentioned yet. [LAUGHTER] When Westinghouse came in, I was assigned—that was my first manager job. I had a group, or a section in the 321 Building in the 300 Area, and a job which was identified as the hydraulic core mockup. And we designed, built and operated models to evaluate the design configuration for the FFTF. So we built water models to look at a lot of different features: the reactor vessel arrangement, and the core arrangement and the structure. And the inlet planning and outlet planning. We built several models. The two biggest ones were the inlet model, which evaluated the sodium distribution in the inlet planning and feeding characteristics for the fuels channels. I worked on that job for seven years. And then during that time, of course, FFTF came under construction. Our group actually influenced the design which was being done by Westinghouse back east. There was a lot of the features in the arrangements and shapes of the vessel and the flow distribution and the core that was determined by that hydraulic core mockup test facility. Then when they started putting the reactor together, I was assigned to construction out in 400 Area. I spent the whole year inside the reactor vessel, helping the engineer put the parts together. One of our humorous comments about FFTF was, from our perspective was FFTF, do you know what that stands for? Yeah, it sounds for feel, file, to fit. [LAUGHTER] Fill all the tight tolerances and all the arrangements necessary to make everything fit and throw it together. It was well-engineered and well-designed, but it was still—engineering problems had to be resolved in the field. So that was another interesting project. Following that, then I spent seven years on the FMEF, the Fuels and Materials Exam Facility, designing and coordinating the design—the management of the design, which was done by an off-plant architect engineer. And there, again, that was a project that was not completed. It was shut down when the Breeder Program was curtailed. So, following that, I could go into more details where we did for various and sundry work, but it was all toward the new mission for the Hanford site, which was cleanup, starting in that field in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I retired, officially, in ’89. But I worked consulting for four years after that. So my career actually spanned from 1951 to 1994. O’Reagan: How disappointing was it when FFTF got canceled? Ballard: Pardon me? O’Reagan: Was it disappointing when FFTF got canceled? Ballard: It was very discouraging, yes, that they were going to close it down. When they drilled a hole in the core support structure, like drilling a hole in my heart. [LAUGHTER] Matter of fact, I’ve got some pictures to show that I was the last person in the FFTF vessel before they closed it up and started it filling it with sodium. Matter of fact, after that closure—after the photograph that I have, I’ll be happy to show you—they had an accident with the fuel charging machine which went up to the top of the travel and the upper limits which failed and it dropped down on the core and broke some of the components that I was so—[LAUGHTER]—proud of getting installed properly. Core support structure. And we had to go in there and do some repairs. But then I, after that, I left the FFTF and went to work on the design of the FMEF. [SIGH] O’Reagan: Did life sort of change day-to-day when you switched these contractors? How different was it working for these different companies? Ballard: The only change that I could see was the difference of the color of the paycheck. [LAUGHTER] As a matter of fact, when we transferred from—let’s see if I can remember which contract that was—was it GE to Battelle or Battelle to Westinghouse? I don’t remember, but the end of that day, we were terminated and I happened to be at a party down in one of the local pubs which I didn’t very often frequent. But somebody said, who do you work for? And I said, at the moment I’m unemployed. Because that was the day we left one contractor and started with the next one. But the transitions were quite smooth, I would say. I mean, of course, policies changed and your managers changed. At one time, in a two-year period when Westinghouse came in, I think I had 13 different first level and second level managers above me change without in those two-year period. So there was a lot of personnel changes. But a lot of us working closer to the ground floor, there was very little change. O’Reagan: So, let’s back up a moment. What were your first impressions of Hanford and the area? Ballard: Well, I came here in the summer—it was in July. I got here on July 3rd of 1951. I was assigned to the barracks out in North Richland—women’s barracks as a matter of fact. That’s when all the dormitory rooms were filled up in Richland for the men’s dorms. So I was assigned out there for my quarters. The next day, I learned that you didn’t have to drive the buses around, you could ride the city buses or the plant buses. Plant buses, to ride to the area was five cents, and city buses, I don’t remember whether they were five cents or free. I rode that bus the next day that I went to work, and it was 105 degrees that day. And I thought, my lord, what have I gotten myself into? [LAUGHTER] This is horrible temperature! But I was young and willing to accept anything that came my way, so I guess I didn’t think it was too serious a problem. O’Reagan: How aware were you of the mission of Hanford before you came here? Ballard: Very little, probably. I knew that it was working on the war effort, but at that time, nobody really—well, yeah, I guess it was known they were producing plutonium or weapons for atomic weapons, but as far as the details concerned, I knew very little. As any engineer—young man right out of college might be. Because I didn’t know what the plant—the structure was. But they gave—they told us and we got the information from the co-workers and the other students. It was quite interesting, because all the youngsters that were working, everybody—not the majority of people, but a large percentage of them—were fresh graduates. The older bunch were the 30- and 35-year-olds working on the site. That’s when I met my wife shortly after that in ’53. But we were married in ’53. But I met her in ’52 at a social that was put on by YWCA, Young Women’s—YWCA organization. They had church-sponsored dinners one night a week and that’s where we met. So we’ve been married for 62 years now. O’Reagan: Were there a lot of those sort of social events? Ballard: A lot of those that happened. As a matter of fact, the organization—I was the third set that the president and the secretary of that organization got married. [LAUGHTER] She was the secretary when I was the president of the organization. [LAUGHTER] Which was sort of comical, I guess. O’Reagan: What sort of things did you and your wife do in your spare time in the ‘50s and ‘60s? Ballard: Well, I guess bridge playing was one, and social events. We went—there was—they had a group that she was involved in called the Fireside Group that had functions and went camping and things like that. But we played a lot of bridge then. O’Reagan: Where did you live? Ballard: Well, I was living in the dormitories, of course, when we were married. I lived in North Richland in the women’s barracks for a short time until the rooms became available in the dormitories in Richland. That’s where I was living when we got married. Of course, housing was another whole story. You had to put your name on a list to get a house. They were all assigned by the government. All the housing was, of course, controlled and owned by the government. So you had to get your name on the waiting list to get a house. We were fortunate; we got a duplex, a C house up on Wright Avenue. I got that assigned in less than a month before we were married. So when we were married, we had a two-bedroom duplex house up there available. That’s where we moved in and lived there until 1957 when the government decided to disperse the property. They started selling vacant lots in 1957. We were a junior tenant in the duplex, so we couldn’t make an offer on the duplex. The senior tenants had the right to buy the duplex. So I was quite aggressive in my ownership philosophy, decided to buy a lot. We purchased the lot on Newcomer, the first property that was sold. And we built a house. I started building in March of 1958. As a matter of fact, we built—our house was the third privately built house in Richland. We had a house and were living in it before Richland was incorporated. They incorporated the city in July of ’58. That was of course the second official designation as a corporation because Richland, of course was a corporation—I mean an incorporated city before the government took it over in ’43. We built that house and I have pictures that I brought of the fact it was one of the first ones in Richland. And we’re still living in the same house. I don’t know what that says, but [LAUGHTER] I guess stability for one thing. O’Reagan: Were you involved in local politics at all? Ballard: In what? O’Reagan: In local politics at all? Ballard; No, not really. They asked me a few times if I wouldn’t run for the city council, but I never did. No, I’m not a politician. I didn’t want to get involved in that. O’Reagan: So you described a number of different jobs you were doing over the first two decades or so that you were here? Could you walk us through, at least for one of those, what was sort of an average work day like? Ballard: Well, let me see. There was one—I guess all of them were similar in a lot of respects. I was doing—on those jobs, I was doing project engineering. And that meant the coordination of, and the I guess you’d call it management, although there was, of course, the organization like GE, there’s so many levels of management that comes through that it’s a little hard to say you managed it, because you have so much supervision and overhead actions that are taken on a project, for example. But on most projects, the engineer—the project engineer would write the project proposal based on what the technical department would have as input for a required facility, for example. Like the high temperature lattice test reactor, the physics department had specified the programs that they were involved in would want to look in more detail at the lattice spacing in graphite reactors, for example. So they would write a document which would specify what their objective was and what their basic criteria was for that facility. And project people would issue—maybe take that and issue an order for another group to do the detailed process—conceptual design, or do it themselves. We’d do it sometimes on small projects. We had projects all the way from modify one laboratory all the way up to a whole facility. So it’s hard to describe the same process for all of them. But it was office work, engineering work. Some of the times I was in a design group where we actually doing detailed design work. But most of my work was in the project engineering field where we were seeing the work done by others. Or specifying details or managing the people that were doing the detailed design work. But it was office work, and of course when construction started, that’s when the project engineers were more in control, because they were directing the contractors as far as the field work was concerned. It was always an interesting job, an interesting challenge, I thought, preparing contract bid packages. Office work, lots of times the projects were out in the field, of course, out in the Area. We’d drive government cars to go to work. That was an advantage. Of course being in engineering rather than operations where you had more control of your time from the standpoint of individual management. Because we’d use government cars for transportation. We didn’t have computers in the early stages, obviously. When they came out with DSIs, Don’t Say It In Writing, that was a big move, too. [LAUGHTER] But certainly a lot of progress and a lot of technology changes over the years. O’Reagan: How much were security or classification a part of your work? Ballard: Well, it was certainly in overview all the time. All the documents, if a job had classified work on it, you had to get the documents classified, and follow the restrictions for those particular elements or documents, whatever’s involved. Most of the time, of course, construction was not too rigidly controlled or administered, I guess. In later years, because the, for example, research work was not really high classified. Most—a lot of it wasn’t. But it was something that was always there. Of course the badging was always—I remember one time incident I had which was funny—rather humorous. I was in a meeting out in one of the hundred areas, in a back room in some building and we were having a discussion. All of the sudden a door burst open and two patrolmen came in and said, where’s Del Ballard?! I’m over here. [LAUGHTER] Hey, come with me! They took me by the arms and whisked me outside and outside the badge house. I said, what’s going on? What’s the problem? They said, you don’t have a badge! I said, what do you mean I don’t got a badge. I looked at it and it was somebody else’s badge—name on it. They had given me the wrong badge! [LAUGHTER] So they were, I guess, vigilant in their control. But some of the times you thought it was a little overreach. It was always there, that’s for sure. O’Reagan: You mentioned a couple jobs not necessarily at Hanford—I think you said Idaho Falls at one point, or other locations around? Ballard: Yes, we had a project—I guess I sort of skipped over that—in the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho Falls. The fuels people here—research people—wanted to do some testing in the Engineering Test Reactor with certain issues or problems that they were trying to develop from the fuel technology. So we put in two high pressure loops over there. Again, I was the project person on it. I didn’t do the design work, I did the procurement and the construction management. Philips Petroleum was the operating contractor over there at the Engineering Test Reactor. So I went over there and saw that those loops were completed and put in place and in operation. It was in 1958. I spent, well, most of that year over there, back and forth. My wife was really unhappy, because that was the year that we had started our house. So I had—coming home on weekends and trying to keep that sorted out. Because we had a foreman working with the carpenters building the house. So it was kind of stressful for her. Yeah, and then I had to go back for the next year after that for some cleanup work on the project. It was another project that was managed by Hanford, but installing a reactor over there. O’Reagan: I’m curious how sort of insular Hanford was, versus how much it was common for people to get advice from outside of the Area, or to travel to different facilities and learn what they were doing, or share what you were doing with others? Ballard: Well, I think that’s probably more prevalent in the technical field than it is in the construction area. Yeah, there certainly was in a nuclear complex, there was—and we did have travels. I did visit some other sites. Occasionally the laboratories on some of the projects we had. But most of that was done by the technical department, not the engineering department. O’Reagan: How much has the community changed, and in any particular ways during the time you’ve lived here? Ballard: Well, it’s gone from a small community to a much higher-traffic area than it used to be. But the people say it’s still pretty mild. Of course I’ve traveled to Los Angeles quite a bit; I had relatives in Los Angeles. And I’d grow accustomed to that mainly down there too. But it’s still—the Tri-Cities is still a nice place to live, I think. It doesn’t have a lot of the big city hubbub that other places do, but it certainly has changed a lot from what it was when I came. My wife came in 1944. Of course that was when it was sand and dust piles and no trees and no grass. It was a lot like that when I came, too, although it was developing. But the first few years that the Manhattan Project workers were here, they had some pretty rough goes. Of course the government would operate a city was an entirely different situation than we have now with private ownership and private management of the company—or local management of the company there. When the government operated the city, it was—you’ve heard these stories before, I know. Even lightbulbs were changed by the employees of the government. [LAUGHTER] So that was a big change. But when we got married we were renting from the government but as soon as they sold the houses we built our own and were on our own. So we’ve lived pretty much as a private city in all of our married life. So that hasn’t been a major change. O’Reagan: Anything else—nothing else in particular I’m fishing for here—did anything else come to mind, as far as changes in, I don’t know, spirit of work at Hanford or changes in the communities? Ballard: Well, the government management of the Hanford site has certainly undergone lots of changes, much as our society has, I think, over the last 50 years. When GE operated the plant, I felt and a lot of us felt that the program was defined in general in scope and the contractor was given a block of money and there they went. They did the job. They didn’t have the oversight or the detail management or the daily exchange as much with the government, I think, as they do now. I think that’s been a change in philosophy or change in detail of management more. A lot of it is because the public’s been more closely involved. Like the different committees that are involved in the oversight with the DoE that they didn’t have at that time. Of course when the Manhattan Project started, it was even further away than that. Nobody outside the Project knew what was being done. They were building the atomic bomb and nobody knew was done except the organization involved in it. Now, anything the government does it’s public knowledge and has 100 different reviews over a period of a decade before they get anything done. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Of course all these decades we’re talking about here are during the Cold War, and nuclear weapons are wrapped up in a lot of that and nuclear power. Was that ever something that was on your mind, or that were you aware of? Or was that just something that was going on far away? Ballard: No, I think the Cold War and the conflict with Russia was well-known because of all the cautions and concerns about the atomic weapons and people—during the crisis that peaked in the early ‘60s and we were in hard conflict with Russia. A lot of concern about what might happen. It was a different era and there was a lot of awareness of the potential that there could be a nuclear conflict. O’Reagan: Did it ever impact your life, or your wife’s life more or less directly? Ballard: Well, I don’t think we—we thought we were protected, we thought we had the national security to take care of it. And I guess we didn’t really worry about it—it was something you didn’t really dwell on, I don’t think. Although they told the students and the kids—some people did build bomb shelters. My neighbor, Dr. Petty, they had one at their house under the lawn in the front yard. When they built the house, they put in a bomb shelter. O’Reagan: [INAUDIBLE] Ballard: Nobody knew about it but them, but I knew about it. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Did you ever see the inside of the shelter? Ballard: I never was in it, no. But I know it’s there. O’Reagan: Let’s see. So I guess we’ve sort of covered this. Could you describe the ways in which security and or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Ballard: Well, I guess from the work that I did in the engineering specifications and drawings and documents that related to projects, we had to worry about the classification on them. You had to worry about the access—access to different projects at different facilities. Of course you had to have the right clearance. So it was a restraint on work in some respects. But it wasn’t a major impact, I don’t think. O’Reagan: In more recent years—well I guess I don’t know how long—you’ve been working with the B Reactor Museum Association and other groups interested in the history of the local community. Can you tell me how you got involved with that and sort of the history of that? Ballard: Sure can. I retired in ’89. And then as I said, I went back to work on a part-time basis. But during that period, the Environmental Impact Statements had been written, and the mission at Hanford was changing from production to cleanup. All the documents and all the philosophy that was being disseminated was, we were going to tear everything down and dispose of everything in the Project. I was the representative to the Tri-City Technical Council. It was a group of only local affiliate—all local agent—sections or groups from the technical society’s engineering—civil, mechanical, electrical, nuclear, women’s organizations—all the technical organizations had what they called a Tri-City Technical Council. And we met monthly and addressed the issues for technology dissemination or issues that might affect the community from what we might recommend or so forth. From that group, we learned—we knew what the DoE was getting into, transition-wise into the cleanup of the site. They were going to tear everything down. And we said, well, we don’t want that to happen to some of these historic facilities. The B Reactor, for example, was the world’s first production reactor. And it was very consequential from the history, both of our nation and the world, as far as that. And also the kick-off for nuclear power. So we said, we ought to do something about that. So we formed a committee. I was one of the people of that committee. And we met in July of 1990, was our first meeting. We talked about an organization and how we might form a group that would lead toward the preservation of B Reactor. We decided to form an association. So we had an attorney draw up our bylaws and we formed an organization called the B Reactor Museum Association. We got our state corporate action—I forget what word they use to describe the initiation of the organization in January of 1991. But I consider the organization being formed in 1990. And our objective was to educate the public about the historical significance of B, and to do what we could to preserve the reactor, to see that it was preserved. To gain access and to develop exhibits and so forth for the exhibits. So that was where we started, was way back in 1990. And all during the decade of the ‘90s, we were meeting and fighting with the Department of Energy because they had milestones after milestones that were established on the cleanup and disposal of all the reactors. B was put into the list later on, but it was always on the list for cocooning, as all the reactors would be. We got those milestones extended over the years. And finally, with persuasion and meeting with legislators, Sid Morris and I met with Sid Morris and—I don’t remember the year now, but it was one of the first times that he was sympathetic for the theme that we preserve the historical relic. And of course, later on Doc Hastings. We had many meetings and persuasions with all the legislators. Of course, Cantwell and Murray got on board over the years. It later progressed into the fact that we want to have a study to see if the Parks Service could preserve it. One time during the late ‘70s, I believe it was, several people thought that the REACH would be the only chance of preserving the B Reactor. They would be the ones that would sponsor the tours and provide for the access and so forth. I said, no, I said, I don’t believe that. I said, I think we want to get the Parks Service involved because I don’t know that even the REACH is going to have the muscle to do it. So we got meetings with the legislators and we got a study authorized for the Parks Service study. That was after two or three years of trials and tribulations. It was finally approved. When the Parks Service first came out—you’re probably aware of the fact that they didn’t have—they just had Los Alamos as the sole main site for the park. And we said, that would never sell. It had to include all the sites: Oak Ridge, Los Alamos and Hanford. So they revised their study and made it a three-site park. It was eventually approved and then later legislation—Doc Hastings and Cantwell got the park legislation authorized. BRMA of course has been involved—has been the agency chipping at their heels all the way through all this. [LAUGHTER] We finally got credit for it. For many years, they didn’t really recognize BRMA as the organization that made it happen, but I think we had an awful lot to do with what made it happen. O’Reagan: Were you ever associated with any of the other local history-related groups? Ballard: Well, yes. We were affiliated with the CREHST museum. We worked with them and the REACH also. But we were the ones that were pushing—BRMA—the B Reactor specifically. We still have a lot of partnerships. We had memorandums of understanding with DoE and the CREHST and with—I guess we don’t have one with the REACH but we still meet with them. Matter of fact, they’re working on this new exhibit for the Cold War exhibit. Of course they’ve got—there’s four of us from BRMA that are on those meetings, but there’s a lot of other community leaders involved, too, obviously. And that was what happened is we were the—BRMA was the organization that was in the trenches early on. But later on, the whole community and the region and the legislators all got on board. So there was a lot of emphasis and support for getting it preserved and getting it converted, or made into a national historic park. Have you seen the plaque out there at B Reactor that says we’re the ones that initiated the plan to preserve it. So, yeah, I’m quite proud of that. I was one of the founding members of the organization. O’Reagan: Why did it matter to you? Ballard: Well, it’s important, I think, to preserve the history. It’s a significant part of the nation’s history. And if it’s going to be educational for the—a good place for the students, the young kids to come up and learn what the nuclear industry’s all about. I still say—and I’ve said for twenty years—that—I don’t know how many years down the road it’s going to be, but I think nuclear power’s going to be a major source of energy. Commercial electrical as well as all the other fields—medical and research. It still has an important place to play in our total nation’s history, I think. And we need to know how it started and what problems it caused. Let’s not generate those again. O’Reagan: What would you— Ballard: So that’s the story that’s going to be told in the park, and I think a lot of people—that’s some of the emphasis. People come out and see the comments in the paper, all the negative comments. Well, that’s true, but the story’s still there and needs to be told. O’Reagan: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? Ballard: Well, I don’t know. It was a challenge, I guess. The success—I’m glad that we developed the bomb rather than Hitler. Like how Fermi said, he said when he was working on fission in Italy in the late ‘30s—the 1930s, yes. He always said he was eternally grateful that he didn’t learn how to control fission then. He said if he had have, Hitler would have started the war with them, rather than us ending the war with them. So I think they need to know what the conditions were at the time that the Manhattan Project was built and what the world was undergoing at the time. O’Reagan: What else should I be asking about? What else is there that we should discuss? Ballard: I don’t know! I think I pretty well spilled everything I know. Unless—I don’t know. I could mention about my—as you know, I was not here during the Manhattan Project. It was over when I came in 1951. My wife and her family was a different story. They came with DuPont in 1944. So her dad was a DuPont employee and he came out here at that time and saw the conditions in employment problems that they had at that time. He was a machinist and had actually directed the tech shops out there for many years. So he probably—that family has more history of the Manhattan Project than I do. Mine is just history. It was—I’ve had an interesting career and I guess I’ve enjoyed it here and it’s been a wonderful place to live. I think it will continue to be if we have people that keep our city from growing into something that it shouldn’t be. [LAUGHTER] But I guess I don’t have any new subjects to talk about unless you have new questions. O’Reagan: I think—that’s my list for now, but thank you so much for being here. Ballard: Well, it’s been a pleasure. O’Reagan: All right, great. Tom Hungate: I had a question. O’Reagan: Please. Hungate: One of the jobs you had—you had a wide variety of jobs; all of them sound fascinating to me. Ballard: Oh, they’re interesting, yes. Hungate: One caught my ear, because I’ve seen these. Tell me what it was like when you said you worked on the K Reactors to lay—you said you were laying up the block. Tell—describe what that process was. Ballard: Well, I wasn’t involved in that deeply as a lot of the fellows were. I can’t remember his name right now, but the primary engineer that had the graphite technology. That graphite was machined in the 101 Building. Well, actually the old reactor’s was in the old 101 Building in White Bluffs. They built a new building, the 2101 Building in the 200 East Area which was specifically for the graphite machining and layup—test layups. Those blocks were built to very tight tolerances. The graphite came in in square blocks from the manufacturers and they had to be machined to the final configuration. Those tolerances were very, very tight, like plus or minus two mils or five mils at the most. The blocks were basically four-and-three-quarters inches by four-and-three-quarters inches by 40-some inches long—the main block. After they were machined to very close tolerances, they were test stacked in the 2101 Building, laid up ten tiers to be sure that the tolerances of the assembly were precise. And from there they were packaged on pallets in sequence that they would go in, in reverse sequence, so when they took them off they were ready to be stacked up. And then they were shipped—brought into the reactor vessel, lowered down into the open process area in the center part of the core and pulled off the pallets and just stacked, piece by piece. There’s pictures available that you see of the old reactors. There may be some of K Reactors too, I don’t know, but show inside the reactors when they’re laying up with the blocks. Of course everybody’s in whites. Your cleanliness control’s very important. And of course, obviously, sequence was very, very important, to have all the blocks in there. But from my perspective, I just watched—I wasn’t doing the work, I was just part of the process that was putting them in there. It was very closely controlled and very temperature controlled—well, no, I don’t know about the temperature. The building was under limited temperature control. But the cleanliness was strictly controlled, and the workers of course had been assigned with each pallet that came in, they knew where it went and how it was to be laid. But that was the same process that was used in all the reactors for graphite layup. But that’s amazing, the way they built those things. You have all the penetrations, like—I can’t give you the numbers. K Reactors were bigger than the old original reactor. The original reactor had 2,004 process tubes. You probably all know the story of that, too. [LAUGHTER] But what I started to say was, the alignment of the holes in the blocks, of course, had to line up with the holes of the penetrations of front and rear faces precisely when they put them in. So it was like putting a watch together on a 40-foot-square [LAUGHTER]—40-foot cube. Very precise work. O’Reagan: Were there any mistakes? Ballard: Pardon? O’Reagan: Did you ever see any mistakes? Ballard: Well, no, but if there were they were corrected as they went, because they had two or three levels of inspection verified that they were going in properly. There may have been some, I don’t know. I was not in direct control of that job. I was more on the K Reactor, I just was in oversight. I don’t remember what my position was at that time, but—the B Reactor, for example, you know what happened there when they started it up? It died because of the xenon poison. They didn’t have enough neutron flux levels to override that poisoning effect. That’s when they had to add the additional fuel channels outside the original 1,500 that they had that the physicist said was adequate to drive the reactor. So that was an interesting job. They had to—the later reactors, they had more knowledge of what the requirements were. So the design wasn’t—it didn’t create a problem on initial startup like B Reactor did. O’Reagan: We were trying to outline or highlight—what sort of innovations came out of Hanford, what sort of inventions did you see—what new knowledge or techniques did you see created at Hanford? Ballard: Well, there again, you need to talk to the physicists and chemists and people that were in the fuel design areas. There were so many changes made to the fuel designs. They went from—of course these were only applicable to the graphite reactors the modern fuel originally were eight inches long when the distortion that occurred in the graphite, that was because of the structure change due to the radiation in the graphite. The channels were distorted to the point where some were so crooked that the eight-inch channel—the fuel wouldn’t go through the channel. SO they went to four-inch people—four-inch long fuel assemblies in some of those bad channels. And then of course another knowledge was the design of fuel assembly, you went from strictly external core where they just had an annulus of water around the outside cooling the fuel assembly. It went to a center core; they had internal cooling—a flow channel through the center of the element. But as far as the physics of the elements, they went from totally natural uranium, originally 238, all naturally derived with 0.7% 235. They went to some enrichment in the reactors to increase the power level. But there was physics changes all along, as far as being able to control and just knowledge of impurities and what the effects were in the nuclear physical—the physics involved in the reactor. But of course, then the Breeder Program, we didn’t talk about that. There’s a lot of advancements made there. FFTF was a marvelous machine and it produced a lot of new information from greener technology. That FFTF was—I spent ten years on development—seven on development and three on construction, so. But I wasn’t—I’m not a physicist and wasn’t into the technology as much as the people—I was more into construction, design and construction. O’Reagan: A lot of knowledge there, too, that you—hands-on knowledge. Ballard: Well, I always pride myself on being able to fix problems. We had a lot of things on assembly or putting the stuff together that just—problems or interferences or arrangements that weren’t thought of in design that we were able to resolve in the field, and that’s why I got into—I’ve been building houses for Habitat now for the last 15 years. [LAUGHTER] It’s a little different from putting reactors together, but I get a lot of comments from the instruction people in Habitat. This is not a reactor; we don’t need to have those tolerances. [LAUGHTER] But I say if you make it right, it looks a lot nicer and it goes together better. O’Reagan: All right, I guess that’s the list of questions I’ve got. I guess we’ll end it once again. Ballard: Okay, well, appreciate. <a href="https://youtu.be/-GxJwHtD_CQ">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview C Reactor B Reactor 300 Area K Reactor K East Reactor FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) FMEF (Fuels and Materials Exam Facility) 321 Building 400 Area 2101 Building 200 East Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1994 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Del Ballard Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Civil engineering Nuclear reactors Breeder reactors Description An account of the resource Del Ballard moved to Richland, Washington in 1951. Del worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1994 and was influential in the formation of the B Reactor Museum Association. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Faa1003ff17632ae0ae464a2e9db9f111.JPG 12ab3d1f4ce99cc9fe66593f8bf4bb23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Bates Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with James Bates on October 3, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Bates: Okay. James M. Bates. J-A-M-E-S, B-A-T-E-S. Franklin: Okay, great. Thank you. Bates: It’s not difficult. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, but you just, you never know. So tell me—so, you’re from the area, right? Bates: Yup. Franklin: Okay, so usually my first question is, tell me how and why you came to the area. But you were born— Bates: I was born in Pasco, went to school in Kennewick, graduated from Kennewick High in 1970. My dad, when I was in junior high school, brought me out to the Battelle Northwest groundbreaking ceremony. My dad was involved in local politics quite a bit; in fact, he eventually became mayor of Kennewick for several years. But he got me interested in the lab when we came out to the groundbreaking ceremony and the discussions of what was going to be going on in the labs kind of caught my interest. I mean, I was in junior high, so there was a long time to change my mind, but I kind of stuck with that as my goal. Graduated high school, went up to WSU, joined the mechanical engineering department. Got my degree, got a job offer from Battelle, came to work one month after graduation, stayed here 35 years. Franklin: Wow. So did your father work for Hanford, or was he just kind of— Bates: No, well, he was—right after he got out of high school, back in the late ‘40s, he worked on construction of some of the waste tank storage, the single-shell tanks. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: He worked out there about two years. But he eventually got diverted into auto parts and managed the NAPA store in downtown Kennewick. So that’s where I worked in the summers, doing inventory. [COUGH] I’m fighting a cough right now, so. Franklin: Oh, sure. And so what was your first job when you came out to Battelle? Bates: Well, they had what they called in those days a science and engineering rotation program. It was where you hired in and spent three to six months in various departments where they had openings. I actually started in the facilities department. Good bunch of guys there, still friends with a lot of those guys, and worked there about four months. It gave me a real good chance to learn what the lab was all about. I was modifying facilities for various sections, groups, departments, as project needs changed. So I got to know a whole lot of people around the lab. One of the departments that caught my attention was the fluids engineering section. When they had an opening, I transferred in there and stuck with them for 34 more years. Franklin: Wow. So I’m wondering if you can—just because I’m kind of a layman when it comes to this—if you could describe to me, what is fluids engineering and fluids dynamics? Bates: Well, understanding fluid flow, phase change, pressure drops, Newtonian and non-Newtonian fluid behaviors, like I mentioned, multi-phase flow. All of that played very much into understanding the water cooling aspects of our production reactors out here. In fact, I got on board when they were trying to upgrade NPR, the New Production Reactor, which was actually N Reactor. We were trying to bump the performance, the thermal output of that reactor, as well as the production capability. So we had a chance to refurbish a lot of the old thermohydraulic loops that were used for designing the fuels on the old production reactors, the B, C, D Reactors. We upgraded that facility and began to do a number of tests related to the N Reactor. Critical heat flux correlations, these sorts of things, which helped them improve the fuel design for the reactor. Franklin: So, if I’m understanding, you kind of drew on the work done to increase the productivity of the single pass reactors. Bates: Yup. Yeah. Franklin: And transferred that to the closed loop system of the N Reactor? Bates: Yeah, I mean, we did work—factory did work on some of the work on the steam generators used that were eventually used to power the civilian power plant out there. But I mean, this test loop chases its roots way back to before I was born, 1950, ’51. They had loops out there to help them with reactor design. They kind of fell by the wayside in terms of use until we refurbished them, got them back online. But we had a high pressure loop out there capable of full reactor conditions, 2,500 psi, 650 degrees. We had five megawatts of power available to us through both rectifiers and motor generator sets. We used electrically—resistance heating to simulate the nuclear fuel rod bundle thermal output. So it was quite interesting for a young guy, just out of school, used to working on tabletop-scale experiments. I mean, this loop was 100 feet long and 100 feet high. [LAUGHTER] Pretty impressive to me. Franklin: This was located on the Battelle campus? Bates: At the old—no, this was out at the 189-D area. It was a reactor support building in the D Area complex. Franklin: Okay. Bates: So it involved a—when I was out there sitting in my chair at the loop, I was 50 miles from home. It was quite a long commute. Franklin: Yeah. And so by this point, all the single-pass reactors were shut down? Bates: Pretty—not completely. They were getting into those issues of thermal output and getting state permits. I can remember one time, in fact, we lost our permit to even do the thermal discharge from our test loop in the middle of a critical program. So how are we going to cool this thing without any river water at our disposal? So what we came up with was we pumped the river water out one pass through our loop, stored it in the old emergency cooling tanks out there that were in the 190 Tank Building. Gave us 5 million gallons’ capacity to store until we got our discharge permit back. Then we opened the valve and let it back out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, that’s to return the water to the river. Bates: To return the water back to the river, yeah. Franklin: Was that permitting process kind of part of the growing environmental movement? Bates: Oh, yeah, very much so. When I first hired on, Hanford kind of had free reign on what we could do out here. We didn’t even pay for power. I’d fire up five megawatts of power supply and there was no meter on it. I wouldn’t’ve wanted to pay that bill, but— Franklin: Yeah, right. And where was that power coming from? Bates: It was coming off the grid out here on the Site. We had a big motor generator set—I forget how many horsepower it was, like 200 horsepower—that we used to turn AC power into DC. DC power being much better for this electrical resistance heating that we were doing. And we also had silicon-controlled rectifiers, SCRs, we called them, that about 4 megawatts out of that unit that turned AC power into controllable DC power. I remember every time we had to come online, I had to call the guys at the substations and say, we’re throwing the breaker. Get ready, we’re coming online. Because if we didn’t give them warning, it looked like something was failing, and we’d shut the substation down. Franklin: Oh, because of the immense amount power to be drawn. Bates: There was a big power draw all of a sudden. Franklin: Because that would look like a massive— Bates: Some kind of a surge going on that was unexpected. So we had the phone number pasted on the wall there, before you throw the switch, call these guys and let them know we’re coming online. So it was a—when that motor generator set was running, it was pretty impressive. Sounded like a jet engine running, just off to the side of the control panel here. In fact, I think that’s why I have hearing loss, over sitting there next to that thing for so many hours. Franklin: Sure. Yeah, I bet there’d be a different industrial hygiene— Bates: Oh, well, we didn’t have any noise surveys in those days, when our health people finally came out and did a survey, they said, man, that’s about 108, 110 decibels. You shouldn’t be spending more than two hours a day in that environment. And I says, well, let’s see, I’m 14 hours and going for today, so. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really loud. Bates: Oh, it is, it is really loud. I mean, we sat there with hearing protection on just to keep from getting a headache. But there was no requirements for limits of exposure or how many hours we could spend in that environment. Franklin: Wow. I’m wondering if you could talk about how that permitting—that level of safety and permitting increased during your time out there. Bates: Oh, it was orders of magnitude. Basically, when I first hired on—in fact, I brought the documents—we wrote our safety documents and we ran them—basically, our operating procedures and what the hazards were. We wrote that all down, and we got it approved by Gordy Halseth. He was the single safety officer for Battelle in those days, he and a couple secretaries and clerks. I mean, if you go out and compare that to the size of the safety department that’s out there now—there must be probably 50, 60 people now doing that same job, just because of the increasing requirements. Basically, in those days, we’d invite Gordy out and give him a tour and get him to bye off. One signature, and we were on our way. The stuff we were doing—I mean, this is 2,500 psi, 620 degrees—is dangerous. We were careful because we knew it was dangerous, not because somebody told us we had to be careful. [LAUGHTER] So, you know, if somebody tells you that stove is hot, you don’t touch it. You don’t have to have it written down somewhere and sign off on a procedure. But, yeah, the changes that went on increased the efforts required to get project plans approved, safety documents approved, hazardous materials documents approved. All this became a much larger fraction of what we had to do in order to do our experimental work. So I got a little frustrated with it towards the end of my career, because it was just taking so much time. The ultimate objective, as stated by our safety people, was zero accidents. I kept saying, there’s no such thing. Probabilities play in, and things are going to happen. I told them, the people working for me, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive to work, statistically. So I said, do you want me to tell them to stay home? Well, that’s not what we’re after. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Could you see, on the flip side, though, could you see any tangible benefit to that increase— Bates: Oh, yeah. If you read the old records of how much the production reactors warmed up the river, for example. When all of the production reactors were online, they could warm the entire Columbia River up by four to five degrees. Which, when you go out there and watch that river flowing by, that’s pretty amazing. Franklin: Right, and that could have some real cascading effects on different ecosystems. Bates: Oh, yeah, yeah. And of course, you mentioned the once-through cooling. When a fuel element ruptured, you began to wonder what was going into the river. Franklin: What other kinds of improvements or changes did your work lead to with the reactors, single-pass and then the closed loop? Bates: Oh, for example, we worked on improving the pressure drop performance of the spacers that hold the reactor rod bundles together. Any time you got a pressure drop through there, it’s a loss of energy, essentially. So we were trying to improve the performance of the spacer and the mixing behaviors downstream of those spacers. Because if the flow characteristics aren’t proper and you don’t get proper cooling to the rod, you’ll get a hot spot, and that limits how much you can ramp the power up. So, both the physical and the fluid dynamics of that flow were very important to how much power you can get out of a fuel element. So we worked on that a lot. In fact, these pictures I’ve got show huge control panels where pressure drop was what we were measuring. We used to use old mercury manometers in those days. Franklin: What is that? Bates: It’s where you measure, like, for example, a barometer. The old mercury barometers used to measure atmospheric pressure by how far it pushed a mercury column up in a tube. Well, if you put high-side pressure, low-side pressure and see the difference in that, you can determine how many psi pressure dropped. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: So the electronic transducers were just beginning to come onto the market. Which we eventually replaced all of that with. Franklin: And what is that, just something that electronically measures the pressure? Bates: Yeah. They use piezoelectrics, for example, is one way of making a pressure sensor. I got to live through all of that, where we went from manually recording manometers on a panel into our log book to tying it into an Apple computer-based data acquisition system and doing it all electronically. You got to remember, when I went to work out there in 1974, there were no desktop computers. My slide rule got a workout the first couple years. [LAUGHTER] And then eventually the company came through and gave us all HP calculators. Which were just beginning to come on to the market. Franklin: How did that change your work? Just that one tool, that one tool change. Bates: Oh, drastically. As an old school engineer, the thing I noticed, comparing it to the young engineers coming on board, when you work with a slide rule, you have to keep, basically, order-of-magnitude answers in your head. I mean, the decimal point doesn’t show on a slide rule. So you got real good at anticipating what a reasonable answer is to an engineering problem. The young engineers that were coming in that were all digital or computer, they’d come in and show me the answer. It was off by four orders of magnitude. I said, that can’t be. There’s no heat transfer coefficient that high. You know? You got to keep in your mind what a reasonable answer is. I’m afraid that that tendency still exists today in our computer-based engineering world. Franklin: So you’re saying, then, that kind of precision of the calculator took away some of that educated-guess work. Bates: It took away that, like I said, the engineering judgment. You start believing all the numbers the computer spits out with no basis to reject them as reasonable or unreasonable. Some of the older engineers I worked with, like Dale Fitzsimmons and Frank [unknown] and that, these guys were working out there working about the time I was born. They had the ability to do on the back of an envelope, so to speak, very good calculations. Things that we wouldn’t even attempt to do today. Obviously they were approximations but they gave us design parameters so we could go out and buy pumps and things to do the job. We just didn’t have all that software. In fact, the very first computer that was used out here was an analog computer that used manual jumpers on an array of resisters. Franklin: Wow. Bates: It was very crude. But because there’s an electrical analog for heat transfer, you could mock up a heat transfer experiment electronically and get some basic answers. Which we always had to confirm experimentally. Franklin: How long did that practice continue of generating basic answers to then confirm— Bates: Oh, I mean, right up until the time I retired, we were still doing very detailed studies on turbulence—I mean, turbulence is something computer models can’t model very well. Every turbulence model out there is empirically derived from experimental data. There’s no first principles that can model the chaos of turbulence. And that’s very key to heat transfer, for example. So, even with some of the reactor design codes that are being used now—which other people in our group were responsible for developing the COBRA codes, the VIPER codes—these probably don’t mean anything to you. But in the nuclear industry, they’re key to designing and analyzing accident conditions and so forth. A lot of the empirical models that are in those codes came from our experimental work. Franklin: Are those acronyms, COBRA and VIPER? Bates: Yeah, yeah, yeah. COBRA, I’m trying to—Coolant Boiling and Reactor Accidents. I’ve got it, it’s in the old history documents here. They became words to us over the years; you kind of lose track of where they came from. Franklin: This might be an off-the-wall question; I’m just kind of curious. We have a—I found a box of archival material the other day that referenced something called a TRUMP computer program. Bates: Yeah, I remember TRUMP. Franklin: Okay. I’m wonder if you could— Bates: That wasn’t something I was familiar with, but it was competitive with some of the things we were developing. Our group over the years split and merged many times, but we always had an analytical branch and an experimental branch. There was a lot of things that went on during the split in terms of code development, but we in the experimental group weren’t in the meetings with on a daily basis. Franklin: Why did they split and merge so many times? Bates: Oh, it was basically a growth and—when funding grew and it got too unmanageable, it was a logical way to split the group into two management. Because section leaders couldn’t manage 50 people; I mean, that gets a little cumbersome. So we’d split it into two 25-peron groups for a while. Then the funding would dry up and we’d merge. We also, as did every company in the country, we went through the management style-of-the-day process, where we grew management and contracted it. Someday I always wanted to go back through my org charts and chart how many management people there were at any given time as a function of time. It changed a lot. I even got—boy, when was it? Late ‘80s, I guess, early ‘90s, I got asked to manage a group. I did that for about four years. But I found that management was a totally different animal than the technical work I liked to do. So when the opportunity came when they wanted to merge, I gave up my management position very willingly. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. I’m wondering if you could kind of track or tell me how larger national events play—kind of affected your work. I’m thinking of the drawdown of the Carter administration? Bates: Yeah, when Jimmy Carter said, basically, no more nukes, that was a huge transition for us. I was working on a program at the time related to understanding liquid metal breeder reactor natural circulation cooling. I’d spent three years designing, building and getting ready to run tests on this very specialized test section. We were some of the country’s experts at that time in laser Doppler anemometry, which is an optical technique to measure fluid flow. Franklin: Sorry, could you say—laser Doppler— Bates: Yeah, LDA for short. Laser Doppler anemometry. Franklin: Anemometry, okay. Bates: Yes. In fact, when I first came on board we were putting together LDA systems from components we bought from Edmonds Scientific. I mean, big lenses and stuff, and we’d build all the mounts and it was kind of a do-it-yourself. We were doing things very unique at the time. Franklin: And you were using this to measure—because I see on my bio sheet here, working with lasers and tools to measure coolant flows, right? Bates: Yes. Franklin: Measuring heat and— Bates: We put a mockup of a reactor inside of a test section with quartz windows in it so we could shine through. I built quartz windows that were good through 1,000 psi of pressure so we could measure at-reactor conditions. Some of the first measurements of that—in fact, I published a paper on some of this and got accepted to an international symposium in Portugal. I went over and presented what we were doing. It was pretty neat. I got put in the bound volume of proceedings. It was a very fun experience. But LDA was kind of my first love for about ten, 15 years of work. In fact, LDA became so popular as a research tool that there were several companies started to sell those systems. Thermal Systems Incorporated, TSI, out of Minneapolis. They consulted with us quite a bit on how to improve systems. Eventually marketed complete operable systems you could buy out of a catalogue, as opposed to our home-built systems. Franklin: Kind of taking what you were doing and standardizing it or kind of— Bates: Yup, yup. Franklin: That’s really interesting. I mean, who doesn’t want to work with lasers? [LAUGHTER] Even today, I think people still do. Bates: It’s cool stuff. I wish I had some of those pictures that—I’ve been retired ten years and a lot of my stuff has kind of disappeared. But we’d have the photographers come in and take a picture of all the mirrors and lenses and things we’d lined up on a layout table to make this LDA system work. It was pretty neat stuff. Franklin: So I want to go—just ask you—so the LMBR, the liquid metal—you were doing work then to support the FFTF. Bates: Yeah, and then Jimmy Carter said, no more. Well, in a matter of three days, I went from fully funded for three straight years on this program to having zero dollars. They called and said, end of program, box it up and send it off. Most of it went to excess; some of it got transferred to another lab. And I had to find something new to do. So one week later, I went from working on liquid metal breeder reactors to working on solar energy storage. Franklin: That seems like quite a—it seems like-- Bates: It was traumatic to me. And our whole group underwent a similar transition. Franklin: How can you move to solar energy storage? Bates: That was popular in those days. Alternative energy—price of oil was creeping up. Franklin: Still is, though, kind of, right? Bates: Well, still very interesting. A lot of these things we were the first to look at them as alternatives. Some of those now are becoming standard grid power. Solar cells, for example. That was a little—our fluids group didn’t work on the solar cells area, pretty much; that’s the electronics people. But we were working on solar concentrator mirrors and developing proper fluids to circulate through those things and capture the thermal energy, run it through a turbine and produce power. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did that research ever amount to any industrial application? Bates: Oh, there were experimental facilities around the country that utilized that technology. I don’t think it ever got to as large a scale as some of the solar cell farms that exist now. You know, they got five-megawatt farms, ten-megawatt farms. The solar salt pond concept that we were working on was a good idea but it had a lot of technical difficulties. One of them being materials. Those brines are very tough to contain and very corrosive, and the materials get very expensive very fast. You got to use—stainless steel isn’t good enough; you got to go to the Inconel nickel-based metals. Pretty soon, the economics don’t make sense. Franklin: You can do it in a laboratory— Bates: You can do it in a lab, but the scale-up process is difficult. Franklin: Right. So, you mentioned that you used LDA for ten to 15 years or so. Bates: Yeah. Franklin: And I’m wondering, what came after that? What did— Bates: Well, like I said, once they commercialized those systems and—we did a lot of work for Electric Power Research Institute, which was a consortium of utilities to how to improve reactor performance, improve safety— Franklin: And this was for energy reactors, right? Okay. Bates: Yes. These are energy reactors, commercial reactors. Franklin: Commercial reactors. Bates: So we got very much involved on the non-government side of reactor research. At the time, Battelle had a contract that allowed us to not only work for the government, but work for the private side, what we called our 1831 contract. Franklin: Right. Yeah, I’m familiar with that number. Bates: So we could go out and sell to—we actually marketed to the various reactor vendors to do research with these tools that we’d developed, primarily for the production reactors. We did research for Westinghouse and Babcock and Wilcox, and most all of the reactor vendors at the time. So it was a good business. Worked hard. When you get on the private side, the budgets are more constrained and the schedules are tight. Many a time, we’d put in 24 hour days. We’d take our sleeping bags out to D Area and grab two-hour cat naps as we were— Franklin: Oh, wow. So you were still working out in D Area then—would this have been in the ‘80s and ‘90s? Bates: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Up until—I forget when we closed the building there. They told us they were going to knock down—starting the Site reclamation process, and we had to get out. I wrote Madia a letter to say, these are very valuable tools you’re throwing away and they will never be recreated because they’re too expensive now. But it fell on deaf ears and we basically walked away from that facility. We did recreate some test facilities in the 336 Building in 300 Area. It was a big highbay building that was left over from the days of the Fast Flux Test Facility. I was responsible for building a big waste tank storage simulation facility in 336 Building where we started developing tools to monitor tank levels and tank mixing and tank retrieval. We tested some of these robotic concepts for going in and retrieving tank waste, which are being used now. I mean, the tank retrieval going on right now has a lot of technologies that we investigated in the 336 Building at a reduced scale. Franklin: Oh! Bates: So it’s pretty rewarding to see some of that stuff. Also, Vit Plant, we were in on the early days of the mixing concerns of the tanks in the early days related to the Vit Plant and the treatment of the tank waste. For example, the pulse jet mixer problem, which is still very much in the news, holding up portions of the design. We did a lot of pulse jet mixer studies in 336 Building. I read these technical articles that are still coming out and they’re still doing some of the very same things I was doing back in the late '90s. Franklin: Right? Bates: These problems are very difficult. Nobody’s ever tried to mix fluids—well, the kind we’ve got out in these tanks. Very complex. Franklin: Yeah, I don’t know a lot—what I know is there’s many different characteristics, like there’s solids and semi-solids and they all have very different— Bates: They behave—what they call non-Newtonian fluids. When you start worrying about transporting non-Newtonian fluids and transporting the solids fraction in that fluid, like the plutonium particles and other radioisotope particles, these things settle out in the wrong places, you got problems. Franklin: Right. And a lot of these things will react to heat in different ways. Bates: Oh, the chemical—the tanks, we used to refer to them as a periodic chart soup. I mean, they’ve got a little of everything in them. And just the characterization of that waste is a very difficult problem. Franklin: Sure. You mean how to— Bates: Understand the chemistry that’s going on. I mean, you probably remember the SY-101 Tank with the hydrogen generation problem. That’s something that we worked on. Franklin: Actually, I’m not familiar with that. I’m wondering if you could tell me about that. Bates: Oh, it’s one of the old double-shell tanks. They started noticing that the level was going up on occasion. And then it would go back down. Well, what was happening is, due to a chemical process, thermolysis, they call it, hydrogen was being generated in rather large bubbles in that tank waste. When the bubble got big enough, it would burst to the top. The headspace in the tank would go above the flammability limit for hydrogen and if there were a spark from whatever source, you could have a rather major disaster. Franklin: You could have a tank blowup, basically. Bates: Which did happen in Russia. I don’t know if you’ve ever read any of their—they had some incidents like that. Franklin: Yeah, they had a major incident in the ‘50s, right? Where they had a-- Bates: Yup, I don’t know the exact date, but they had a-- Franklin: Yeah, where a cool—a waste tank blew up— Bates: They ruptured a tank, right. Franklin: Yes, and it killed a lot of people. Bates: Well, of course when DOE found out that they had these hydrogen events in these waste tanks, it was all hands on deck, we got to solve this problem. Franklin: Right, we’ll likely have the same— Bates: Right. So a lot of our computer models got diverted to modeling that situation. We on the experimental side got excited about coming up with mitigation techniques. How can we improve the mixing? How can we prevent this hydrogen bubble buildup problem? That consumed us for a number of years. Franklin: Yeah. Was it solved? Bates: What’s that? Oh, yeah. SY-101 was eventually solved and the hydrogen release problem was mitigated. Franklin: What was the solution? Bates: Well, I think—you’re going back, really testing my memory here now. Probably better to read some of the technical reports on this, but they did a lot of transfers in and out of the tank. Add liquid, bring contents of several tanks, get the chemistry to a more acceptable condition, and improve the monitoring and the mixing. They basically got it to where the hydrogen is still being generated, but it wasn’t being stored and released in these periodic events which can lead to—you know, if you save up the hydrogen for a couple of months and release it all in a single event, the concentration goes up drastically. But we came up with mixing techniques that allowed it to do a slow release and keep the concentrations down. Franklin: So it’s still building hydrogen— Bates: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --but it’s not in these massive bubbles that then— Bates: Well, that thermal generation of hydrogen is always going to happen. The chemistry can’t be changed. But you got to prevent it from building up to concentrations of concern. So hydrogen generation is a problem they’re dealing with in building the Vit Plant. They don’t want any incidents like that to be occurring in the process lines of the Vit Plant. Franklin: Right, because they have heat there. They could conceivably spark it. Bates: Well, yeah. You don’t have to necessarily heat it. I mean, these isotopes self-heat. [LAUGHTER] They will generate hydrogen. So that is very much on the radar screens of everybody doing design work now. But we were in on the early days when the problem first came to light. Franklin: Did that problem—sorry if you mentioned this, but did this problem come to light—that came because of discoveries here at Hanford, not because of the Russian incident. Or was it kind of—did they kind of inform each other? Bates: The Russians didn’t publicize much of what was going on. I mean, they didn’t write technical papers that we could reference. So it was a problem that was understood—I mean, the chemistry and the generation of hydrogen was understood, but the physical characteristics of the waste and how it could retain this hydrogen in bubbles, that was all pretty new stuff. Franklin: Okay. Bates: We had to understood the mechanisms by which it was happening before we could go about coming up with a fix to prevent it from happening. Franklin: Sure, sure. Bates: So, took a lot of—there was a lot what I call grade-five engineering going on out there to understand this problem. We had chemists and physicists and engineers all collaborating on a daily basis to, what’s going on here? And we got to solve this problem and it can’t wait. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering if—I’d like to ask you about a couple more events and how they impacted you or if they did. I’m wondering, did you ever work on any of the WPPSS reactors or do any work for WPPSS? Bates: Oh, I did work for them. We did some, for example, I was in routine business for a while of doing flow meter calibrations, and they have a lot of large flow meters out there. Out at 189-D, we had what we called our low pressure loop with very large pumps. We could do flowmeter calibrations there in the lab up to couple thousand GPM. Franklin: What’s GPM? Bates: Gallons per minute. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: In fact, at one time we did a flowmeter calibration for the City of Los Angeles that we needed a million gallons per minute. We fired up a couple of the old K Reactor river pumps. This flowmeter was in a pipe that was six-and-a-half feet in diameter. This was largescale engineering. And actually did a flowmeter calibration for the City of Los Angeles so they’d know how much water they were pumping into their domestic water supply system. So we got involved in all kinds of little tangents, because of the capabilities we had. Franklin: I’m wondering how Chernobyl affected you and the Site? Bates: [LAUGHTER] In my mind, Chernobyl was the beginning of the end for graphite moderated reactors. The emphasis was on shutting those things down. Franklin: Right. And that’s what was at Hanford. Bates: I lived through Chernobyl and I lived through—I was working when Three Mile Island happened. Franklin: Oh, right. Bates: I got to go back and visit Three Mile Island about three or four months after it happened. Franklin: Why was that? Bates: Trying to understand how that happened. And, as you know, I think it finally boiled down to operator error. They closed some valves that shouldn’t’ve been closed because they didn’t understand the thermohydraulics of the reactor. So once we understood that and could simulate it with our codes, they started doing extensive training to the operators so they understood how this worked. Trained their whole—changed their whole training procedure for reactor operators. Made a big difference. [LAUGHTER] They needed to understand the very—the subtleties of what was going on in a reactor. If the operators had got up and walked off, the reactor would’ve been fine. The automated systems would’ve done the right thing. They overrode some of those and caused a problem. Anytime that we—we had enough expertise in our group, anytime there was a reactor problem, we usually got involved. Even the Fukushima tsunami damage over there, some of our people went over there and spent time with the Japanese helping them to resolve—look into that problem, what could be done about it. So a lot of history in our group in helping the world with nuclear problems. Franklin: Yeah. Did you ever get to—did you ever go to the Ukraine or Russia after— Bates: No, unh-uh. A good number of our people did. We certainly got involved with some of our personnel in the Chernobyl encapsulation project where they were trying to put the big dome over the reactor to prevent the further spread of the contaminants. I forget the name of that project; again, there was an acronym. But, yeah, our people got involved in that, too. Understanding airborne transport of contaminants and particulates. There’s still efforts going on in that area. That problem is not going away anytime soon. Franklin: How did the transition between production and then the signing of the Tri-Party and the beginning of cleanup, how did that affect your research and your efforts? Bates: Well, we had a lot of good tools developed. I mean, a fluid is a fluid. Nuclear waste is a very interesting fluid. Just trying to come up with simulants for it is very difficult. We spent years trying to develop formulations that can, in a cold environment, allow us to do testing with properties of fluids that are similar to what the waste exhibits. That’s a difficult problem. Many a day, we were out there mixing up different batches of waste simulant. It’s a very dirty job because it involves a lot of fine particulates and clays. Many a day, I came home, red dust head to foot. [LAUGHTER] But we eventually came up with some very good simulants, and they’re being used not only here onsite but other labs doing similar research. So those were interesting days, too. Franklin: How was morale onsite with the switch from production to cleanup? Bates: Oh, obviously when you put—for example, like that project, I put three years of my life, night and day, long days— Franklin: Are you talking about the FFTF project? Bates: Yeah, where I was working on the natural convection cooling of—basically, an accident condition analysis of LMFBRs. I mean, I traveled to vendors all over the country and worked with them to develop hardware and come up with special pumps and instruments. I designed a test section with sapphire windows in it. Each of those sapphire windows was $10,000 and I needed like 20 of them. We only installed two or three of those windows and the balance of them got shipped off to excess. I mean, that’s not good for morale. [LAUGHTER] We had to have the sapphire because of the frequency of the lasers we were using to do the LDA work. You can’t use normal glass, or even—and quartz wasn’t strong enough to stand up to the conditions we were testing, so we had to use synthetic sapphire. Yeah. So, I had to work with the vendors to come up with the production techniques and how to machine these into our special shapes. Anyway, I had half-a-million dollars in hardware that was ready to run a test and I never got to run a test. So, yeah, there were similar stories all around the lab where it was this transition was very difficult. Franklin: You mean the end of the ‘80s transition from production to— Bates: Yes. The end of the ‘80s, the death of the nuclear industry so to speak— Franklin: The ending of the Cold War. Bates: The transitioning—yeah, the end of the—as some of our folks used to say, once the Soviet Union proved to be such an unreliable enemy, when they split up and the wall came down, and production became less important, and the environmental movement of course. We had to clean up this mess. That was a transition for all of us. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Was there a lot of enthusiasm for this new job? Bates: Yes! As you get into it and find out just how complex it is. I mean, it’s not like opening a can of soup. I mean, you got to understand the problem first and that takes a lot of research. Then coming up how we could best simulate it, how we can model it, both computationally and experimentally, a lot of challenges. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. I’m wondering, how did that transition affect the Tri-Cities as a whole? Bates: Well, Tri-Cities, you know, has undergone numerous transitions. The biggest one was when they shut down the WPPSS reactor construction. Housing prices tanked and tens of thousands people leave town. Franklin: Because there were supposed to be three reactors here, right? Bates: There were supposed to be three, right. The remnants of the other two are still out there. In fact, I’ve been involved in numerous visits out there of saying, what else could we do with these things? I mean, there’s all kinds of pumps and piping. We were looking at it for additional test facilities. Franklin: Oh, okay. Because they just walked away from construction, right, when it defaulted? Bates: Yup. Yup. Yeah. Several monuments to stupidity out there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I like that. Oh, that’s good. I love hearing about these things from people who were out there. Bates: You can imagine being an engineer out there working on getting a new reactor online and saying, oh, never mind. You can go home; we aren’t going to do that now. That’s hard on people. You commit your lives to it and now you got to go find something else to do. Franklin: Right, and you wonder if that’s really the best fiscal choice. Bates: Yeah, oh, yeah. Franklin: Because you spent all this— Bates: Well, I mean, in hindsight, would it have been better if we had had those reactors online and we didn’t have to burn as much coal and oil? Now that global warming is the big concern? I think there might have been some different things done. Franklin: Yeah, that’s kind of always that tension. I know the nuclear industry, that’s one of their main talking points now is that it’s carbon-free. Bates: My best example I always bring up is France. They’re 85% nuclear. They’ve closed the fuel cycle with reprocessing. They don’t have too much of a concern about generating their carbon footprint in the power production industry. We could’ve been there, too. But we made some wrong turns. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering kind of two questions back-to-back, kind of one’s a flip of the other. What were the most challenging aspects of your work at Hanford over your 35 years? Bates: Challenging aspects, oh. Because we’re a research institution, we’re always doing things for the very first time. Anytime you have to invent the hardware to do the research, that’s—you can’t just open up a catalogue and order three of item A and three of item B and go do your test; you have to design it first. That puts a lot of pressure on you when the budgets are fixed and the schedules are fixed and you’ve got to come up with an answer. That’s the nature— Franklin: In fact a lot of the stuff you’re building then gets later put into catalogues, right? Bates: Oh, yeah. We generated quite a number of patents and so forth in the process of building these things. But nobody ever factors in the fact that this has never been done before, and you want me to give you a fixed budget, a fixed schedule, to get this job done? I found that tough. And I’m sure people today are still challenged with the same difficulties. Everybody wants to know when you’re going to be done and how much it’s going to cost. Franklin: Any notable successes or failures in that aspect of kind of building this hardware for the first time? Bates: Oh. You learned a lot from your failures. Franklin: Yeah. I’m wondering, is there an example that comes to mind? Bates: Oh. Phew. Well, the one I always remember that was kind of traumatic to me is, I mentioned those sapphire windows we were building. I was doing a test for basic energy sciences in Washington, DC, trying to understand a basic concept called thermal [UNKNOWN] vapor generation. This is where, for example, in a reactor blow-down condition, where you superheat a liquid and you wanted to understand how the process of turning that flash into steam. Well, I had to get visible access to my blow-down venturi nozzle. And I built one of these sapphire windows. It was about 20 inches long, three inches wide. Cost me—I forget what the number was, $60,000 a copy for these windows. I took it out of the box. We had special silver plated gaskets designed. I put it on there, put the frame on, tightened the first two bolts. Cracked it right in the middle. [LAUGHTER] I went down—first I went home, because I was done for the day. The next day, I went back and went down and talked to our machinist down in the optical shop, and I says—I forget his name; I think his name was Doug—what can we do here? He says, well, I can take those two broken pieces and turn them into two smaller windows. So I went back and redesigned the test section with two small frames. It was cheaper to rebuild the metal parts than it was the windows. And we made that one window into two small windows and proceeded to get the test done. But [LAUGHTER] those are the kind of days where you go, yeah, we should’ve checked the dimensions on that retainer before we tried the assembly. I trusted that the shop had gotten them right, and they were slightly off. So you learn lessons there. I never broke another window. Franklin: I bet! [LAUGHTER] Not at $60,000 a pop. What were the most rewarding aspects about your work? Bates: Oh, what I found was coming to work every day, up until—you’re always working on something different. I didn’t get stuck in a rut. For example, Boeing made me a job offer that was very lucrative, but I found out I would be designing landing gear struts. And I just thought, could I do that for 30 years? I don’t think so. Franklin: Was this at the beginning of your--? Bates: Yeah, this was at the beginning of my career. The reason I went to work for Battelle is because of the variety of the work they were doing. My example I always used to tell our—when we were actively hiring and brining interview candidates through is, I said that simultaneously I was working on liquid metal fast breeder reactors and peanut dryers. I worked half the week on peanut dryers and half the week on fast breeder reactors. Franklin: Like for industrial—like, agro business to dry peanuts. Bates: Yeah, like, salted-in-the-shell peanuts. Getting the moisture out of those things is a difficult job. And especially trying to do it and conserve electricity and natural gas in the drying process. Franklin: So that would’ve been some of that 1831 work. Bates: That’s some of that 1831 work, yeah. So I had to put—I had two different hats. Doing that simultaneously was sometimes a little traumatic to switch gears. But that kept it interesting. There wasn’t a day I didn’t come to work where I thought, there’s something interesting to do today. There’s not many jobs you can have that are that way. Franklin: That’s great. Bates: In fact, I shed a few tears when it came time to retire. Franklin: Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about that. You retired in 2008, and what was the impetus for—because you’re still a young guy. So what was— Bates: Well, my wife and I love to travel. We’ve been to Europe, I don’t know, 18 times. We love the history and that. Trying to squeeze that in with a 40- to 60-hour work week is pretty tough to do. When we first got married, we said, let’s set our objective on trying to retire early so we could do some things while we’re young enough to enjoy it. So it was tough. I had two sons, and trying to put all that money away and meet that objective to retire early was tough. We stayed in our old house and didn’t upgrade to a new and bigger house like everybody else. But we made it. Best decision I ever made. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Do you miss the work sometimes? Bates: Oh, yeah. In fact, back a few years ago, I was kind of hoping to go back to work. But the rules were that I couldn’t go back to work until age 62 once I took the retirement package. They had rules in their contract that they couldn’t rehire retirees. Those have since been changed; I could work now. But we’re kind of lacking in experimental facilities out here now that I would be interested in working on. I still tell my old section manager that if you ever get the budget to rebuild some experimental facilities, I’d be happy to come out and help. [LAUGHTER] But just don’t ask me to write a safety plan. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, red tape. So I guess two questions left. I’m wondering if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy about what you were doing at Hanford impacted your work. Bates: Oh, I mean, secrecy—when I first hired on out there, it was still very hush-hush. Everybody out there had a Q clearance in those days. And we worked on some things that we couldn’t write papers on. We were doing a lot of leading-edge stuff, but we didn’t go off to the conferences and present our findings. We got involved in the tritium production, supporting production. That was a very big project. But, boy, very closely-controlled. Classified computers, classified phone lines, classified fax machines. I mean, communications were very tightly controlled. Franklin: What did you do for the tritium project? Bates: Oh, there were some thermal aspects that our group got involved in. I mean, I can’t—even now, I can’t talk about a lot of this stuff. I mean, just because I retired, it doesn’t King’s X my security requirements. We worked on some stuff for the military that related to weapons; we worked on stuff for kinetic projectiles—I mean, this is really interesting stuff. Made my day. But we couldn’t go out and write papers about it and put it in the general literature. So it’s much different than a university environment where it’s publish or perish. If we published, we’d perish. [LAUGHTER] So, a lot of people we hired—we hired some, not retired, but professors that wanted to come work in research. It wasn’t an easy transition for them to come into the classified environment, where you have to be so careful. We had a couple people that just never did make the transition. Franklin: That’s still a constant tension within university research, when it deals with—for Army applications or things that are export controlled, there’s always that—the export control office fights with the—and how freely—that kind of tugs at the essential purpose of the university, which is to create and disseminate information. Yeah. Bates: I got a little exposed to that as an undergraduate research assistant up at WSU. Professor Clayton Crowe up there was working on some experimental simulations of underwater rocket launchers related to ICBM rocket launchers from submarines. We were trying to mock up some of that stuff. I got a briefing on how much we could say and couldn’t say about some of this stuff we were working on. That was kind of my introduction to working in a, it wasn’t what I would call classified, but it was certainly sensitive information. I was able to handle it; I tried to take as much satisfaction I could from just what I was personally working on. I didn’t want to—resume building wasn’t what I was after. Some people don’t have that same priorities, I guess. They want to make themselves look good rather than just enjoy the work they’re doing. I mean, publishing is still encouraged, highly encouraged. That’s the only way we really got of advertising our abilities out here. Franklin: There’s kind of a tension there, too. Bates: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, over the years, I’ve probably published 20, 30 papers. And enjoyed going off to the conferences and interacting with our peers and learning new things. For example, there was a yearly LDA symposium held in Portugal. We usually had somebody there for about the first five or six years that that conference was held because we were doing leading-edge stuff. It was fun to share the information with people. Franklin: And probably fun to go to Portugal, too. Bates: Oh, yeah. I mean, there’s worse places in the world. The first time I went over there, it was really interesting. Bottle of water was a nickel and a beer was a nickel. So you can guess which one I drunk. Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, that’s great. [LAUGHTER] My last question—of course, not, like—on your off time, right? Bates: Oh, yeah. In fact, we went over and did—the conference was over the 4th of July holiday. I actually presented my paper to 2,000 people on the 4th of July. So, I took a comp day the next day, and we went and tour Lisbon. Franklin: Fun. My last question is—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and working in Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Bates: Being a lifelong resident of the Tri-Cities, I’ve not known any different. It’s not like there was any kind of trauma involved with moving here and seeing the big nuclear symbols and the Richland Bombers. That’s just normal to me. And I think if I were to tell somebody, it’s a very stable community, it’s a very healthy community. There’s a lot of interesting things going on. And what we’re doing out here has the ability to diversify into many different areas that make a difference. I’m sure by the time we’re done with the Vit Plant, 50 years out in the future, we’re going to be doing some things with that technology that will impact commercial aspects of our economy in all kinds of ways. But when you do leading-edge stuff, you make a difference. So I guess that would be a short summary. Franklin: No, that’s great, thank you. Bates: I think there’s a lot of personal satisfaction in that. Like I said, when we were doing the early days of LDA, it was an idea that came out of University of Minnesota, and we got one of their PhDs to come out here and go to work for us and bring that knowledge, and we continued to develop it and make it better. It eventually became a commercial market, selling literally hundreds of these systems to research institutions all around the country. There’s a lot of satisfaction in that. So it goes from a concept to a standard tool. That’s where I got my kicks, anyway. Franklin: That’s great. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming and talking about your work. Bates: Yeah. Okay. Franklin: It was really amazing. Bates: Okay. Thank you. Franklin: Yeah. Awesome. Bates: Go Cougs! Franklin: Yeah. Go Cougs. <a href="https://youtu.be/5UAoeTFmc8A">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor N Reactor 189-D Area 190 Tank Building FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 336 Building 300 Area Vitrification Plant WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1974-2008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Bates Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Mechanical engineering Nuclear reactors Nuclear power plants Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactor accidents Description An account of the resource James Bates was born in Pasco, Washington in 1952 and grew up in Kennewick, Washington. James worked at Battelle Northwest from 1974-2008. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/03/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fddb4db3c62c60689139f55445db0af3b.jpg 98b8ca0aa60801a6fe319d88a15c2b43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Beck Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Edward Beck on July 31, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Ed about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can state and spell your full name for us? Edward Beck: Edward D. Beck. Last name is B-E-C-K. Franklin: And Edward? Beck: E-D-W-A-R-D. Franklin: Okay. Beck: Do you need my middle name? Franklin: Sure. Beck: Domenic. D-O-M-E-N-I-C. Franklin: Thanks. And you prefer to go by Ed? Okay, great. So, Ed, tell me how and why you came to the area to work at the Hanford Site. Beck: Well, I graduated from the University of Utah in 1973. Mostly worked in Salt Lake City doing various things. The year I graduated, there weren’t too many jobs in environmental biology, which was my degree. For a while, I worked for the state health department and then I went to work for the University of Utah in research. I later went to work for the Department of Public Safety; I was the University of Utah’s first industrial hygienist. And I started that job in March of 1981. I was starting a family; I got married in ’73. When our last child was born, it was my daughter, we were still living in Salt Lake City and she came down with a case of e. coli. Probably, we think, from an undercooked hamburger at a fast food restaurant. It was a really severe case: she spent 90 days in the hospital. It was really, really hard. I could go into a lot of detail. But I thought that I just—I had a lot of financial pressure. I was fully insured, but medical insurance was still a quagmire in those days, too. And so I decided that the best thing to do—state employment is not top dollar. And so I started looking around for where I could find another job that would make more money. I was working at the University of Utah—had been working up there for several years as the industrial hygienist—and the Department of Energy had a bunch of beagles up there that they were doing research. They were feeding beagles plutonium and americium, you know. Then they would sacrifice them and see what was cooking inside, cause of death, and what that radiation really did to the beagles. So, there was a guy named Dr. Edwin Wrenn, he was the head of the program for that. He was an MD, PhD. He was in charge of that program. So I would go up there and I would work, I would do his health and safety as industrial hygiene. All of the sudden, I guess you’d say, his department, the department of radiobiology was sacrificed to bring in new money, more money, for research in genetic engineering and stuff. So I think Huntsman came in, the Huntsman center for cancer, and there’s a bunch of other researchers they brought in with more money. So they did away—they dissolved the department of radiology and they started—they had to get rid of the beagles. The beagles had been living in kennels that were on cement, and the cement was contaminated from all their droppings. So the thing we were doing, we were cutting up the ceramic and trying to keep everybody from being exposed. And we were shipping it to a place called Hanford. Gosh, I’d never seen that before. At the same program, they also had a bunch of rooms that they were doing radiation research on, and they used to—they did several experiments there with the beagles and several types of what they called deep body, looking at the bodies to see where this stuff was located in their organs. They had some metal rooms that were built with battleship steel before the first atomic bomb so they were completely clean. That didn’t mean much to me at the time; I thought, well, that’s all well and good. But these buildings had to be torn down, too. And they were also sent to Hanford. They make up—right now Battelle has this—or they did when I retired—they have this center, actually, I wouldn’t call it a center. It’s a suite where people go and they sit for 30 minutes and they have these sensors go over their bodies and they see where they have any radiation deposited deep in their body. It’s a very sensitive thing. This battleship steel from before World War II was a very, very scarce commodity in the ‘80s. I mean, they were making all this stuff, or—DOE was more interested in, and Battelle was more interested in the battleship steel than anything. So it was shipped to Hanford and it now comprises all the shielding on that building that they’re still using today. Franklin: Ohhh. Beck: So that, you know, Dr. Wrenn, he was a little—he felt bad that his department had been sacrificed— Franklin: Do you know how to spell his name? Beck: W-R-E-N-N, I think. His name was Edwin. We kind of formed a good relationship because he was called Ed and I was called Ed, so, you know. When I was assigned to the hospital up there to do safety and health, I did a lot of work for him. They also worked with pigs. The department of artificial organs was there. You know, Barney Clark, they put the artificial heart in him, he was the first one ever, and they did it at the university. I was working there when they did that. But I used to go and measure all the noises, all the noise levels from the beagles in the kennel when they were feeding them. I made people put on hearing protection, because it is deafening. Absolutely deafening. Well over OSHA standards. The pigs were, too. You’d pick up a pig and they’d squeal. You can ask anybody at WSU who works with livestock how much noise a bunch of livestock can make in a building. To me, that was very surprising. But Dr. Wrenn told me, he says, you know, if you’re looking for a job, he says, you’ve had all this experience here, and he says, you might want to apply at Hanford where we’re sending all this stuff. It’s federal and I know they use a lot of people like you. Since you’re looking for a job, that might be a great place to apply. So I did. I did some research on it, and we didn’t have computers in those days really. I remember I was collecting—I was getting MSDSs—Material Safety Data Sheets for the university over a computer. Kind of like a fax machine and it was really primitive compared to what we’ve got today. So, I did some research and I applied with Hanford Environmental Health Foundation. I found out that they were doing all the occupational safety and health for the Hanford Site. So I sent my application in, and they sent it back and flew me out for an interview. That’s how I got here. Got the job, and I worked for—I started work August the 14th of 1989, and I’ve been here ever since. I worked for a lot of different contractors. Franklin: Sure. Beck: When HEHF went out of business, it was kind of a—it was a situation where they wanted to cut costs, I believe. And there’s a lot of politics involved in these situations. So they eliminated HEHF’s contract and they gave it to someone who, I guess, could do the work cheaper and better and that kind of stuff. So then I went to work for other contractors out in the area. But when I first came here in ’89 we were still making plutonium. It was not soon after that, though, that the Site was shut down and they started cleanup. Actually, when I interviewed, they were telling me that was coming. N Reactor was still operational and stuff like that. But they were saying that the handwriting was on the wall that they weren’t going to be making any more plutonium. Franklin: But they still knew that they would need you, though. Beck: Well, they did. Franklin: I mean, they were still actively hiring even though production was shutting down. Beck: Because they knew it was going to be a cleanup site, and any person who knew anything about Hanford, and I did, knew that they would need a lot of industrial hygiene folks. And there were a lot of people who were here that were industrial hygienists already. They’d been here from the beginning. I go to church with several—with at least one, whose name is Alan Lilly, and he was here before I was. Franklin: What was his name? Beck: Alan Lilly. I think I’ve given his name to the woman that I talked to about this interview. I think she might’ve called him already. She asked me for names of people I knew. Franklin: Yeah, we’re always trying to work those personal referrals because those are very generative. Beck: So, when I came here, HEHF did all the industrial hygiene. Not the safety part, but the industrial hygiene for the entire Hanford Site, all the contractors. Franklin: Can you explain that difference to me and anybody who might be watching? Beck: Well, safety and health, I guess you could look at as one big overall. It’s like “medicine,” right? You’ve got a pediatrician, you’ve got a brain surgeon. So as I see it, safety and health is kind that banner of “medicine.” And then underneath it, you’ve got health physics, which is closely allied but still different with usually different degrees. Then you have industrial hygiene and then you have like safety professionals. Industrial hygiene would be exposure to things like noise, particulates, vapors, solvents, those kinds of things. There’s light, various different types of light. Laser. Lasers can be—I was the laser safety officer at Battelle before I retired, for about five years. So there are a lot of things that you can be exposed to on the job that the industrial hygienist would measure. We usually did that with sampling pumps. It was very difficult at Hanford, because you always had the possibility of contamination. Franklin: Radiological contamination? Beck: Yeah. You’d collect it with your sample. Like, for instance, suppose that you were working in an area where there was a particulate that you wanted to collect. You’d have these little plastic jobbies called cassettes that you’d put on the end of a sampling pump. They’re connected by tubing and they’re attached to the person’s lapel. So they’d go in and they’d do their work and you’d collect, you’d pull air through that. And that gives you an approximation of what their exposure is. And OSHA requires that kind of sampling. That’s the basis for the exposure limits for OSHA for many chemicals. If it’s a particulate, you do it with a cassette and filter. If it’s a solvent, you do it with what’s called a sorbent tube. At the time, you did it with a sorbent tube. Things have really changed; they’ve got a lot of very, very nifty ways to sample now they didn’t have back then. Noise, you do with just a regular microphone and a recorder that records the noise levels. All those pumps have to be calibrated with class 1 calibration, so it’s very accurate. Then you’d send it to a lab. You’d take those cassettes and whatever tubes you used, and you send them to the lab. They have to be analyzed, but you can’t send them to any lab if they’re contaminated, because you’d spread radioactive contamination where they’re contaminated. So, we couldn’t use just any industrial hygiene lab. So that was what 222-S was for. That’s one of the things they did. They did the contaminated samples. People that worked at Hanford in industrial hygiene, and people that work in other radiological companies that do sampling, we had to find ways around—if you wanted to know if a sample was contaminated radiologically or not, you can’t tell just by looking at it. Franklin: Sure. Beck: So what you do is you collect two samples side-by-side, which the people working for General Electric probably didn’t have to do. One sample would do, because they were sure theirs wasn’t contaminated. You’d collect two samples side-by-side and you’d send one over to the rad—radiological people. They’d scan it doing a slow scan to see if they could detect any radiation on the filter. If they detected radiation on the filter, or if there was any contamination, then it would go to 222-S lab. If they didn’t detect any radiation on the sample, then you could send that out to another lab. It was actually checked three or four times before it went offsite to make sure nobody made a mistake, because DOE had already seen what they could do to laboratories when contaminated samples were sent. And people said, gee, we didn’t know. I even saw that while I was working at Battelle before I retired. But there were a lot of things that happened, too, where everybody’s going, wow, how’d this happen? So, anyway, that’s the basis for industrial hygiene and that’s really what we did at the Site. We also did sampling for a lot of the power plants that were onsite. There were coal-fired power plants. Franklin: Still in operation? Beck: No. No, no, no. They took those down. Those were shut down; they didn’t operate—I think it was about three or four years after I got here. I can’t remember exactly when those were taken down. But there were—1970 was when OSHA came into being. I graduated from college in ’73, and EPA came along not long after that. EPA had some requirements for power plants, for coal-fired power plants. DOE had to comply with those. They had an air quality program in the State of Washington and we had to comply with those. So we had to do what was called isokinetic sampling. You’d have to actually climb the stacks, those big smokestacks, and do sampling. You’d have to put samples in stuff, sampling apparatus. We used glass lines with—you’d put grease on the fittings on the lines to make a seal, and we’d go up there and sample those. Usually, we were a couple hundred feet up. When the wind was blowing, it was cold. And those things would move back and forth so you couldn’t always keep your glass tubing together. If that glass tubing came apart because the wind was blowing a bit and those things were moving, you know, you’d have one over here and one over here and this would move in a different, you know, so it would pull it apart. You’d have to start the sampling all over again. So we had to pay careful attention to how we did that. Franklin: How would you get up there? Beck: We climbed ladders that probably weren’t OSHA compliant. They didn’t require the fall protection then that they do now. We did everything that was required for safety. But stuff progresses over years. You know, you get better and better at it. That’s one of the things I didn’t like so much. I’ve climbed those towers and it didn’t scare me being up that high, but it did—when wind blew, boy, it was cold. It was not a good place to be. And you couldn’t pick the day you sampled, necessarily, for wind. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Beck: Not always. You’d try. But they couldn’t predict the weather as well as they can now. And Battelle used to predict all the weather on the Site, you know. They still do as far as I know. They had a lab out there. A building where they had Battelle meteorologists, they were there 24/7. I think they still might be; I’m not sure. I think they might have a lab 24/7 doing weather forecasting and stuff. Franklin: Wow. Beck: Just in case they have an incident or something like that, they know where the plume might go or know where fires might go. I think that, as I remember, that was probably a really, really good thing we had that going on when we had the big range fire out there. You probably heard about that. Franklin: Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Beck: Well. I was working out in the 200 Area. HEHF had dissolved and I had went to work for Waste Management. Waste Management had a contract out at Hanford to do many things. They day of the accident that started that fire, I was out at 200 West. I was out not too far from T Plant. I was out by the Yakima gate, kind of facing the Yakima gate, and I was inspecting a chemical storage, I guess you’d say, I don’t know what you’d call them, but they’re like the storage boxes that you see on trains that go back and forth that got the doors that open. We were putting a lot of chemicals and stuff in there, and as I remember, the painters were kind of complaining when they opened the door, they’d get chemical odors. So we were taking a look to see how we could collect samples and see what they were exposed to. And I heard the accident. I heard the collision that actually started that fire. And I heard this pop or bang. It was a distant thing. I looked—you know, you can’t see anything from the distance I was at. But not long after that, fire started. Later I heard that it was probably caused by that accident that I heard, that’s how fire got started. So when the fire really got going, I think I was out there the day after. It’s been a long time ago; hard to remember exactly when the days I worked. But I didn’t work out there for very long, because they closed the Site down and only the required people were out there. So when the fire finally was done, we all went back to work out there, and it was very different. There was nothing but dust and I guess you’d say ashes. The fire had come really close to the place I had my office. I can’t remember the number on the building. But it had come really close and actually some of those buildings had been scorched. I mean, they got really hot. They kept the fire—DOE had done some really good things. They had a lot of fire alarms around the buildings, and they put big rocks everywhere to keep the contamination down. Because when the wind blows, if you have any radioactive contaminant, it blows around. Franklin: Right. Beck: So you could almost pick the areas that had some ground contamination out there, because they were full of big rocks. Around Tank Farms, there’s big rocks. I mean, they’re everywhere. Like beds of rocks. So when the wind blows, it really stops the movement of any contamination. You’d have the RCTs that would go around with their meters, and that’s all some of those guys did was just constant surveys to see what the contamination was going. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the stories about the tumbleweeds being contaminated. At the time when they started to burn those tumbleweeds and the smoke was radioactive, they soon figured that out and quit burning the tumbleweeds. Almost all the mice had radioactive. They actually had some people from Battelle that used to go out and collect animal specimens on Site. They would come in and analyze them and they would tell them what the contamination levels were. But you’ve probably heard that story, I would suspect. Franklin: A little bit, yeah. Beck: Yeah. Well, those, when I went to work for Battelle, I was supporting those people that used the firearms to go out and collect some of the animals. Franklin: Oh, okay. Beck: Yeah. It was— Franklin: I’m wondering if you could tell me a little more about that. Beck: Well, some of that might not—might be classified still. I’m not going to say much. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay, sure, sure, sure. Beck: There’s things I’ll be very careful with in this interview, because I had a security clearance for many years. I don’t keep up with what has been declassified and what’s still classified. Franklin: Perfectly understandable. Beck: But things that are common knowledge, like the collecting the specimens, deer, rabbits, things like that and all kinds of plant stuff, that was done probably from the 1940s. But it was done much better in later years. I don’t know when they really started collecting those samples. You’d have to do research on that. But it was definitely going on when I went to work for Battelle. I think it was 2000— Franklin: And you were seeing or hearing reports of even then collecting specimens that were radiologically hot? Beck: Yeah, well, they would go out and see what they could find. Let’s see. That’s probably not classified. We had a situation with Hanford. I was still working at HEHF at the time. So it would be before I went to work at Waste Management, which I think was 1999. Not too sure; I think it was. They had a hydrogen sulfide smell out around Tank Farms. Tank Farms had odors for a long time. If you worked out there—we did a lot of sampling around Tank Farms. You’d pick up stuff in the air all the time, even in the old days. That’s because the risers—this might be my own personal opinion. I don’t know how much fact there is to this. But over the years, I always picked up this reason for why they never could put those exhaust stacks up in the air. Because if you were to put some high exhaust stacks up in the air from those tanks, you’d dissipate a lot more of those, and people wouldn’t smell it, and it wouldn’t be a problem. But to do that, you have to change your air quality permits, and that’s pretty tough to do and it would pretty hard to get the State of Washington to buy off on it. It’d be pretty expensive, because you got to put special filters. I mean, even now, those tanks, those underground tanks, they have special filters on the exhaust so that they can keep the contamination level down. You don’t stop the vapors, but you can certainly stop radioactive particles. Well, anyway, so they shut the entire Site down because of that hydrogen sulfide smell out at Tank Farms. And everybody was on, I believe they went to airline respirators or actually SCBA respiratory protection. As an industrial hygienist, you’re also very involved in respiratory protection, because you choose the respiratory protection, you make sure the mask fits. It’s all got to be to OSHA spec. You know, DOE, because they’re a government agency, they really aren’t under OSHA requirements. They’re like the Army. They’re like the Forest Service, the Parks Service. They’re really not governed by OSHA. OSHA was a law that was mostly just for people that weren’t government. I mean, you can’t tell somebody who’s in the Marines that he’s got to wear hearing protection because his rifle makes too much noise. I mean, that’s probably not going to go, because the Marine needs to hear his buddies, right, and he’s not going to put on hearing protection to save his hearing. I mean, you can see the Army operates a bit different. Franklin: Right. Beck: So most of the military and most of the government agencies are exempt from OSHA. DOE didn’t have a lot of their own standards, so they rolled over and accepted OSHA, a lot of the exposure limits and so on and so forth. But it wasn’t up—when I first came here, it was a little—It became more formalized as we rolled along, but in 1989, they were still doing pretty good on it, but there was a lot of things that they just weren’t required to do. So they later wrote those things in. But at any rate, we had this smell out at Tank Farms. This is a long story, but I’m getting to this— Franklin: No, no, no, no. Beck: This contaminants. It’s a story that I’ll never forget. So, they put us on 24/7 shifts at Tank Farms. All of HEHF’s industrial hygienists had to work graveyard and daytime as did all the other health and safety people. We all went on. That had not been the case. There were a few health and safety people that worked staggered shifts, but most of us worked day shifts. So we found ourselves out at Tank Farms. Myself and another industrial hygienist who worked for HEHF who now works at Battelle, [LAUGHTER] we were riding around in a car and going from place to place at Tank Farms and taking chemical measurements all night long. Everybody was—it was kind of crazy. There was SBCA respirators. And then they stepped down, a few people were allowed to wear cartridge respirators that you can still take the vapor out of your breathing zone, but if it’s at a certain level then you’ve got to go to the airline because it’s considered to be dangerous. Well, that’s what OSHA says, anyway. They’ve got these exposure—these limits. Well, went out there one night, and I’m walking through one of the facilities out in Tank Farms. And I see this big—there’s a pop machine and a candy vending machine in this area. I see this big V shape cut out of the concrete. It’s gone. I hadn’t seen that before. I said, gee, I wonder what happened. So I started asking people, how’d that happen? And they said, well, what happened was we found that the mice were going here and running along the wall. You know where the wall and the floor come together, you’ve got that 90-degree bend straight up and down. Well, they had mouse dropping and urine and it was hot. Then they found that a mouse—later on they found that a mouse had gotten up in the candy machine and there was contamination in the candy machine. So the candy machine gets removed. That’s going back to what I was telling you about the contaminated animals. Yeah, you just knew, if you dropped something on the ground at Hanford, you almost never picked it up. If you dropped any pen—I don’t know how many ink pens the government bought for people, but ballpoint pens, they were laying on the ground a lot of places. You knew why they were there. You just couldn’t be sure, when you picked them up, if you did pick them up, they were clean, and you didn’t want to do that. Because when you go out of a zone, you’d have to survey out. If you contaminated your hands, it was a big deal. So if you dropped something on the ground, rather than pick up the pen, you would prevent further contamination. That was part of the training, that you don’t be picking up things that could be potentially contaminated. So we didn’t pick up— I mean, it was a well-known fact that the tumbleweeds and stuff that grew in a lot of places at the Hanford Site—because there was ground contamination—would become contaminated and they’d have lot of radioactive isotopes up in the tumbleweeds. They first thought that they’d go around and they’d reduce the fire hazard by burning the tumbleweeds, so they picked them up in a truck, you know. They had this truck, I think that was—I don’t know how they burned them; I can’t remember exactly. I think they actually embedded some sort of a truck or designed one so they could keep the tumbleweeds in this truck, keep the sparks from going and causing other fires. Everything is required to have a survey—everything out there that goes into any type of a zone is required to be surveyed. As I remember the story—you’d have to talk to somebody who remembers it better than I do—but the RCTs were surveying that operation in that truck, and they found that, lo and behold, the smoke was coming from the tumbleweeds, and any particulates made by those tumbleweeds were radioactive. So I don’t think that burning of tumbleweeds lasted very long. So we don’t do it anymore, I’m sure. But anyway. Franklin: Yeah, now, when I’ve been out there, I’ve just seen them, they get piled up in the ditches and along the fence lines. Beck: And usually hauled away. Franklin: Usually—yeah. Beck: They put them in the landfill and usually bury them. You know, it’s—you just assume that if there’s one contaminated—if you just find one, say, in 100 acres, you would assume that potentially you could have more. So they just all get collected and buried. Franklin: Sure, and you don’t know where they came from, so. You know? It’s the nature of the beast. Beck: And the same with the animals. We used to laugh about it a lot. How do you keep a jackrabbit from staying on the Hanford Site? He’s eating vegetation that may be contaminated, may not. So anything he takes in gets bioaccumulated, stored in his body, you can probably find it. Now this little bugger, he wants to hop over, maybe he even swims the Columbia River, I don’t know. But suppose he gets somewhere. I don’t think that’s a serious issue, but I think it’s one that they’ve been watching. They’ve always watched. Franklin: Sure. It makes sense. I’d like to ask you about the history of the HEHF as you know it. How long were they in existence before you joined them? Beck: A long time. I came to work in ’89, and they were the medical group in 1969 when the McCluskey accident happened. You’ve probably heard of that. Franklin: Yes. Beck: Okay. Those were the docs that treated him. They used chelation therapy? Franklin: Which is? Beck: Which is they give you IV. IVs of salts that will go out and grab onto certain chemicals in the blood. They do that for heavy metals, too. It doesn’t necessarily have to be radioactive. There are people who might have mercury or lead or something in the blood, and they can do that sort of therapy. What it does is it makes chemical complexes. They get it out of the blood and it’s excreted. So that was pretty successful, as I understand it. Never had been done before, that I was aware of. At least that’s what I was told at HEHF. You know, I told the young woman that I talked to on the phone that I scheduled this interview that they used to have lead-lined bathtubs. For accidents. And the McCluskey was the first one who was ever, I think, put in a lead-lined bathtub. Those were located about, I don’t know, a couple hundred feet behind Kadlec. In a—you probably heard of that before? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Beck: Well, I was the guy—I was one of the industrial hygienists used to go in there, because the bathtubs were made of lead. You want to make sure there’s not a lot of lead contamination. You do get oxidation of lead, right ? Franklin: Sure, yeah. Beck: So we’d go in and we’d do what we call swipe samples and we’d have them analyzed for lead and make sure there was no excess lead dust, or not a lot. See, the medical staff or the people being treated to be exposed to. So I used to go in that facility once or twice a year. And so did a lot of other HEHF employees. But I’d never see that facility before, but I’d actually seen the bathtub where McCluskey was—I think it was the bathtub where he was actually treated. But they had these bathtubs and they put the person in it and they’d try to decontaminate him. And the people that did the decon—decontamination—they had the lead that would shield them while they did the work. And they wouldn’t—they’d take turns to limit their dose. They’d move around. So HEHF was here in 1969 when that happened. We had our 65th, I think, anniversary when I was still working for them. Which would’ve been prior to—I don’t know, exactly. That may not be right. I don’t know how long they were here. Maybe it was Battelle had their 65th anniversary when I was working for them. I was working for Battelle when they had their 65th. I don’t know how long HEHF was— Franklin: Okay. Beck: You’d have to research that out. But they soon—I started to work in August 14th of ’89. When I went to work for Waste Management, there were few of us left. Soon after that, the contract was put out for bid, and somebody else won the contract. So then HEHF went out of business. I mean, there’s other people to do the contract, but I actually gave several names of employees that still live in the area to that woman I talked to. She’s hopefully trying to get them to come in for interviews like this, or maybe even meet them for lunch. They meet every month on the fourth or third Thursday for lunch. Franklin: Oh, okay. Beck: A lot of the people that have been worked for HEHF longer than I did. I really didn’t work for them that long. I worked for them for ten years. But there were some people who worked a long time. They’re still here. Franklin: Maybe we can come and give them a presentation. Beck: Yeah, I really think those guys—I don’t know about the docs. I think the docs that actually did the McCluskey treatment stuff, they may have passed already. I don’t know where those guys are. I never met any of them, other than just when they’d come back to visit HEHF after they’d retire. You know, they’d come in the office and I got to shake hands with them and that, but I didn’t know— Franklin: You didn’t work with them? Beck: Didn’t work with them. Franklin: What—oh. Sorry. What other types of activities and people did HEHF employ, besides industrial hygienists? Beck: They employed doctors, and most of the docs were occupational physicians; they specialized in occ med. That’s a specialty usually—at the University of Utah, when—I took some graduate classes for industrial hygiene and we were in the division of occupational medicine, which is a part of family and community medicine at most medical schools. So almost everybody that goes to medical school does a rotation through family medicine and they get probably three months’ worth of rotation through occ med. These docs would’ve specialized in it. There was a guy named Dr. Culkeeny, for instance. He was—I still consider him a great guy and one of my best friends, and I don’t know—he comes back from time to time. But he was a retired Navy physician that worked on aircraft carriers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers. He was a very, very knowledgeable doc. Those were the kind of people that they went after and tried to find. When I first came to HEHF in 1989, we had, I think it was either a one-star or two-star general that became the head of HEHF, and he was an MD. He was a medical doctor. He came from the Air Force, I think. His name was Dr. Neider. He’s retired now. I think he’s still living here in the area. I know that there’s a guy that I worked with at Battelle that married his daughter. So I think he has grandkids and I think he’s still in this area. But, gosh, I haven’t seen most of those people. There’re some of those people that work for HEHF working for the medical contractor now. They’re physicians’ assistants. I think my exit exam when I left PNNL when I retired—everybody gets an exam, you know, when you quit or when you retire you get an exam on record to see if there was anything wrong with you. Actually, one of those PAs did my exit exam so I had a good time telling her, a lot of reminiscing of old times. Those lunches—there was a lot of reminiscing at those lunches about what we used to do and some of the outrageous things we used to have to do on site that we thought, like climbing those stacks. Ha. Got to tell you, that was a—it wasn’t a high point in your day when you had to do that, but it had to be done by somebody. So we were the ones that—some of us; not everybody. Franklin: So it sounds like the nature of your job was largely having a lot of a presence out on site, being—not a lot of lab work, but a lot of going out in all different times of the year and sampling—what were some of the challenges of a year-round position like that? Beck: Well, the weather. We’d work out in, it’s going to be 108 degrees next Friday. Like I told you, Trench 84, very interesting trench. It’s a burial trench out in the Area. I worked out there when I worked for Waste Management. This is just to point out how the weather really affects things. The heat out there, when you’re in that trench, we measured just a temperature off an ordinary thermometer of 114, 115 degrees And it was a trench they’d dug out with Euclids, which are those big earth-moving machines, that you just drive and they just keep digging the—and then they drive up and they put it on top. And then they’d move those big reactor components from all the nuclear ships that they deactivated, and move them in there. They never cover them up—they’re going to cover them up at some point in time, but they have to leave them uncovered so that the people that are part of the treaty, the Russians, number one, can fly over with their satellites and still count those reactor components. Because that’s how you prove they’ve taken the ships out of service. That’s part of some treaty; I was never sure which treaty. They even had to be painted specific colors so that the satellite can see them. But it got so hot out there in the trenches that you couldn’t paint them, the reactors, until—as a matter of fact, we tried to paint them in April one day and the paint was drying so fast, it was popping off. It wouldn’t stay on the reactors, it was that hot. Franklin: Wow. Beck: It wasn’t that hot. It was like 90-something degrees, but it was—they were black underneath. They had kind of a black tarp covering on them. So when you prepped those—and we had professional painters, you know, who would go up on scaffolds and try to paint those things. They’re huge. Wouldn’t fit—one of those probably would be a challenge to fit in this room. They move them with big cranes, Lampson cranes. If you’ve ever seen one of those, you ought to—that’d be something to really televise, for this show, I think, as part of the history. Because they move them out—they close all the roads on the weekends and they put these big trucks, I don’t know how big these trucks are, but they weigh like 200 tons or something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: And they’re contaminated. So they put them on these trucks and they truck them out and put them in that trench. Push dirt underneath them. And they’ll be buried there for—yeah, that’s Trench 84. It’s a well-known trench. I don’t think it’s classified or anything because everything that we used to work on—used to have to have a security clearance to work in there. Franklin: Pretty sure the cleanup tour now goes right by—I’ve seen that. I’ve seen what you’re talking about. Beck: You’ve seen those big things? Franklin: Yeah, they’re huge. Beck: And some of them are bigger than others because some come out of cruisers, some come out of destroyers. But they’re huge. Franklin: They’re huge. Beck: And they’re very hard to paint. Franklin: Yeah and there’s many of them. Beck: They are very hard to paint, let me tell you. Franklin: Oh, I imagine so. Beck: But anyway, it was a 115 degrees down there one day. You have to send people out to work for 20 minutes and then they come in and rest for 30. Because they’re in their anti-Cs. Franklin: What’s that? Beck: Well, it’s anti-contamination clothing, usually a pair of coveralls, and then some, like, a plastic suit or—I guess the way you describe the suit—actually, the name of the suit escapes me. But you sweat. Boy, do you sweat. You wear another pair of shoes. You wear your boots and then you wear plastic over-shoes over that. Then you wear a coveralls and you tape it around the bottom and you wear your other—so you’ve got about two layers, sometimes three. Your rubber boots, you’ll have that much water in your shoes from your sweat. Franklin: Wow. Beck: It’s icky. [LAUGHTER] I’m going to tell you, when I first came here in ’89, it was hard to get used to. It really was. And I have a little sensitivity to heat exhaustion and heat stroke now from the Hanford Site, because sometimes even the safety people—you wouldn’t realize it; it sneaks up on you. You just, before you know it, you’ve got a headache, you’re feeling sick to your stomach, and that’s heat exhaustion. Heat stroke comes later. But you want to stop it before it ever gets there. That’s one of the bigger challenges. Then in the winter, you freeze. It’s really cold. The wind blows like crazy. There are days you can’t collect samples. As an industrial hygienist, the wind’s blowing like 40 miles an hour, I guarantee you, your samples will be worthless. So you don’t sample it. Do you stop work? Well, OSHA says you should know what your employees are getting exposed to. But how do you do that? And actually, I think, when the wind starts blowing, usually more than ten miles an hour, we would not collect samples, because if you’re outside, it can blow dirt in picked up with the wind that these guys weren’t creating. They’re still exposed to it, but it really kind of, what you’d say, salts the sample and makes it maybe a little higher than what it should be. They also had to shut down any heavy lifting. They used these big cranes on the Hanford Site. Since I was a certified safety professional and a certified industrial hygienist, I did safety—I did IH and safety both, and most people did. I mean, there are some safety people out there that just do safety and don’t do industrial hygiene, but I think most IH folks used to do both. I’ve done both on my career of 31 years, safety and health, I’ve done both. So you’re doing the lifts out there with these big cranes, and usually you’re—well, you’re lifting all kinds of things. But hey have these leaded drums that they put waste in, other isotopes in and plutonium. They weigh 5,000 or 6,000 pounds. They lift those up. Well, if the wind’s blowing more than ten miles an hour, all lifts are canceled. There’s a reason for that. They get swinging. Do you want to try to stop 5,000 pounds of—whatever you pick up can be moved in the wind, and you just don’t want to have— So, lightning. When lightning comes close, within 30 miles, a lot of that stuff gets shut down because those cranes are just lightning rods. But it goes inside. So you have a lot of things—I mean, there’s a lot of people that put up with lightning. I mean, in the Midwest it’s worse than here by far. So a lot of people deal with lightning. But our winds, if you’ve ever seen the wind blow around here, it can get to be a big deal. I remember the first year I was here in 1989, I came in August. That November or sometime, I think before Thanksgiving, we had winds that knocked down all the trees down in the park along the river, tore up signs and everything. I remember sleeping that night in my house, the same one I’m living in now, and I thought the roof was going to come off the house. The winds were like 85 miles an hour. Franklin: Wow. Beck: I mean, you went up to the Area the next day, and boy, there was a lot of changes. That’s how the contamination really moves. [LAUGHTER] Could potentially go off-site. Franklin: Sure. Beck: Anyway. Franklin: Wow. Earlier, before we started the interview, you were also telling us about how the shift from providing large drums of water to bottled water and I wonder if you could talk about that briefly. Beck: Well, I’ve already mentioned one of the biggest challenges we have in the weather realm is the heat. And heat exhaustion and heat stroke is a big-time deal; it can be very serious. It’s like the Army used to find, if you didn’t have good food and good boots, everybody gets calluses on their feet, the Army doesn’t go very far. If they get sick and they’ve got dysentery, bad water, bad food, the enemy doesn’t need to fight you, right, because you’re done. You’re pretty much done. Same thing when you’re working in the workforce like that. You take out half your workforce with heat exhaustion, heat stroke. And it takes a while to recover. And sometimes, it takes IV therapy, if they’re really, you know, if people are really sensitive and they’re like I am. I’m 66. I have to watch what I do. Not only have I been sensitized out there at the Site, but I also have to watch what I do now because the older you get, the less your body cools itself. I mean, there’s lots of things that are different. So you’ve got to be smart about what you do. So we used to have to try to prevent heat exhaustion, heat stroke. Hydration is key. But when you’re in all those layers of anti-contamination clothing, right, and you sweat a lot, not only is it key, it’s crucial, in my opinion. So there was a time when I came out here in 1989 that we were accomplishing this, the hydration part, by having 5-gallon containers of chilled water with ice in it. We had to make sure it wasn’t contaminated; it was clean; that there weren’t any viral-borne illnesses or anything that people would get, because that’s bad, too, and people don’t want to drink it anyway. So we had these containers that were purchased that were used for nothing but that. They were sanitized every day at the end of shift with a Clorox solution—chlorine solution. They were rinsed and they were put in an area that was clean to dry. Turned upside-down, sitting on things, so they would air dry. And then in the morning, way early in the morning—some of these shifts, because it was hot, we’d alter the shifts and you’d start work at 6:30, maybe 6:00 in the morning, maybe even earlier. And then you’re done earlier in the day, and that also helps. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I bet. Beck: For those of us that had to drive out there 35 miles, it wasn’t terribly helpful. Because that means you have to get up at 3:00 in the morning to get out there. That was the other thing in the summer: your schedule changed a lot. But at any rate, they had some of the craft that were union employees that would fill these things up with ice and water and monitor them all day, and would also sanitize them and clean them at night. And they’d do other things in the day, but that was part of their duty. It’s very difficult; you got 15 people working in an area doing something and you’re trying to count these 15 people and make sure they’ve had enough water, enough fluid. How do you do that? It’s kind of hard, because you’re—to not get too complicated and take too long, if it’s a contaminated area, you can’t do that anyway. Because they’re on a respirator and they’re not allowed to eat and drink. So that’s a big problem. So a lot of times, they have to take breaks and they have to maybe take off the outer layer of their anti-Cs, they have to survey out, then they get to go sit and cool down. Now, a coffee break takes about 45 minutes when you do that. Because they get their clothing off, they get surveyed to make sure they had no contamination, then they get to go sit and drink the water. That’s always kind of hard to say, well, how many cups has this guy had, how many cups have you had? Because you’ve got to have so many ounces in so many hours. Franklin: Sure. Beck: But when bottled water came, we eliminated the cost of those jugs and the ice—because it had to be ice that was drinkable. We still kind of gave them drinkable ice, but we got the bottled water, we just put all the bottles in kind of like a big plastic tub with ice in it, let them cool down. Each guy, each individual would go and get six bottles of water and write his name on it or whatever, however many bottles. And we would count the number of bottles he drank and he would, through the safety officer on the Site, he would require that those people bring the bottles to you, and show you that they’ve—you couldn’t stop them from pouring it on the ground the moment you saw them, but if you saw them doing that, they were done working. Franklin: Right. Beck: They just were. Because if someone goes down in a contaminated area, if they pass out or they get sick, then you got to have the Hanford Fire Department come in and pick them up. It’s just—it’s a huge issue and there’s lots of risks to that. People get hurt. You want people making good decisions. You don’t want people feeling light-headed and not feeling good. That’s going to happen anyway, maybe, because it’s just so blasted hot. You want to try to get them as good as they can be. So bottled water, as a safety person, I thought bottled water was one of the coolest things that came around. It really made our job a bit simpler. And I think overall for the safety and health of the people that worked out there, they could have as many as they wanted; we didn’t restrict the bottled water. But, golly, I mean, we absolutely knew for a fact that that guy was really at low risk, or lower risk, for heat exhaustion because he’d had all the water he needed. Franklin: Right, you were able to measure it, basically. Beck: Yeah, you could measure it instead of just guessing at it. How much—did he drink the entire cup or did you drink half of it and throw it away? That was kind of important. Franklin: So you said in ’99, HEHF was shut down. And then you moved to Battelle shortly after that? Beck: Well, HEHF was shut down, and I had to have a place to go to work. Because my job was going to end. I think what happened there was that most of the contractors thought HEHF was too expensive. I mean, they were each given $2 or $3 million a year for health and safety, I think. What you had to pony up from your contract was proportionate to the employees you had, right? And each time a doc examines somebody and they each got to handle a physical, you know? Say there’s 12,000 or 15,000 employees onsite. I don’t know how many there ever were. I know that Battelle themselves employs around 4,500 workers. But if you have that many employees, and they’re all getting exams, it’s constant money. They all thought that they could do it different and cheaper. So HEHF, their contract was put up for bid and somebody else won the contract. Then there’s other people that left. They were using their own physicians, putting them on the records. So I’m not sure exactly what happened, but the crux of the matter was they started doing their own industrial hygiene and safety and they were hiring on people. They actually hired many of the HEHF staffers. We were kind of at a premium because we’d been here a while. We had our clearances already. Security clearance costs—I don’t know, they told me once it used to cost $10 grand for a year. I mean, they have to maintain it. They check on it every year. I had a Q clearance. I don’t know if that’s similar to what the politicians who’ve been in the news recently with the election have. But, you know. They check. They check all the time. So if you have all those things already done and your training’s already done, you don’t have to be trained and receive all the rad training. I mean, you have to have the annual refresher but you don’t have to go for the two-week course. That costs a lot of money, to send people for a two-week training. Then, wow, we get this person and he’s actually been out here and he knows where T Plant is, and he knows where this is? And you might have an idea where things are buried where other people have forgotten, okay? Give you an example, those tunnels that just collapsed? We knew they were there. For a long time. And I believe that used to be classified. Obviously they’re not because they’re in the news. But we used to walk across them all the time; we knew they were there. How anybody could’ve forgot they were there and let them deteriorate is—but anyway. Another story. So I needed a place to go to work, so I first went to work for Waste Management. Probably of all the contractors, HEHF was the very best at it, and that was the very best job I ever had. I was devastated to see that job go. I really was. Because it was the—when you go to take graduate courses in industrial hygiene, it’s the cat’s meow to have occupational health nurses, and occupational docs and industrial hygienists and safety people all over the gamut, all going in and talking about John Smith who’s got this problem, how do you think he got it? And then going out and sampling for it. Man, that was good. It was just like graduate school, just like—a lot of companies work—well, anyway, that ended. And so I went to work for Waste Management. I think Waste Management was probably the second best company at Hanford I ever worked for. Franklin: Why was that? Beck: Management. The manager I had was—he was fabulous. I just can’t say enough about him. He was—his name was Gordon Meaney. He was a great guy. He was a great guy. Then I worked—something happened with the politics. There again, these contracts out at Hanford, they’re all full of intrigue and drama and politics and whatever you want. Follow the money, you know, but. Fluor Hanford wasn’t getting along with Waste Management for some reason. So they swallowed up Waste Management. We didn’t get choices; we were Fluor Hanford employees. I mean, we had a choice: go find another job or work for Fluor Hanford. Because Waste Management was done. Maybe they’ve come back to the Site; I haven’t paid much attention. Franklin: Do you remember when that was? Beck: Oh. Franklin: You got notes? Beck: Well, I just have some information here. If you’ll pardon me, I can’t remember dates really well. Franklin: No, that’s totally fine. Beck: I know the date that I started, I stopped working for— Franklin: It’s not a crucial thing if you can’t remember it. Beck: Oh, I can. I worked for Waste Management until November 15th of 1999. November 15th of 1999, I became a Fluor Hanford employee. So, it was in the late ‘90s that they had this little problem with Fluor. I don’t know what it was. I used to kind of think I knew, but the years have gone by, you know? It’s not the most important thing I ever thought about, but it happened. So I only worked for Waste Management for a year. I worked for Fluor Hanford for a year. And then Fluor Hanford was probably the worst job I ever had. I worked for other companies that had worse management but I don’t know when. I mean, I’m not trying to trash them; I’m just saying. I was matrixed out in the area to six different projects. I read about it this morning before I came, because I sent my letter of resignation, I sent it by email. The human resources specialist that I sent that to wrote me an email back saying, why are you leaving? So I wrote this discourse why I was leaving. I was matrixed to about six projects; I had three different managers I was responsible to. It got so bad, I mean—I want to say this nicely. There were managers that would schedule meetings at the same time, or maybe I’d have a meeting from 1:00 to 2:00 and this guy wanted a meeting from 1:30 to 2:30 or whatever. They would write me nasty letters and put on my evaluation that I didn’t attend meetings. But I had conflicts. These managers, it’s like the current political administration, if you’ve been noticing what’s been going on in Washington, DC. They were warring against each other. I was absolutely amazed. I said, look, guys. I’m matrixed to all these projects. If you guys want to have a meeting with me, I’m more than willing to attend but I can’t be two places at once. Well, where’s your loyalty? Do you have a loyalty to this plant, this project, or what? What do you mean loyalty? I’m going to lose my job one way or another. After a while, I just said, you know? So I applied for Battelle. It was a job that was in town. No more driving. I mean, I didn’t really mind the drive out there. But they actually drove me from the Site, the bad management and their attitude. Gosh, a nine-hour day was not enough for them. I had to do ten hours a day, four days a week. When I went to work for Battelle—I retired at Battelle, so. When I worked for Battelle, things changed a bit on my safety and health slant, because I was the first industrial hygienist for the University of Utah. They were in research, laboratory research. Well, Battelle is laboratory research, too. So they hired me for my experience in laboratory research. Franklin: Mm. So you kind of ended your career where you started. Beck: I ended my career where I started. Much happier. Battelle had good management for the most part. Franklin: What types of projects did you support at Battelle? Beck: I supported—I don’t know how they’re organized now; I haven’t really kept up with it since I left. But Battelle had different directorates. My last directorate where I retired from was NSA, or the national—NSE, excuse me. The National Security Directorate. NSA, the National Security Administration, after 9/11, that’s where they got most of their money. Working there, working for Battelle, you know, I’d heard that most of the money was in NSD. From time to time, everybody at the will of the government goes through budgeting crises at the Site, particularly Battelle. I was energy science and technology directorate. ESTD was the one I first supported. They were more subject to losing money through the budget. So I was working, the day of 9/11, I was working, still supporting ESTD and I was over in PSL when the—actually, I was home when I heard that 9/11 occurred, you know, the planes and everything. I was in PSL when that tower collapsed. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And I was with a bunch of ESTD people, and they said, man, this is obviously terrorism. We were all talking about it. And they said, wow, now would be the time to change directorates, because I’m never going to get—National Security Directorate’s going to get a lot of bucks. So I changed and went to work for the National Security Directorate and, boy, did we ever get money. So they do all kinds of research. NSD is almost completely classified. There’s some things that aren’t, but by and large, that’s all I can tell you. Don’t mean to be cloak-and-daggered, but I don’t know what’s—because I would go in to do inspections and some things would be covered with cloths and sheets and I would be told, you can’t see this. My clearance, I had a Q clearance, it wasn’t even high enough. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: So, I mean, there’s some of those things. But the Energy Science and Technology Directorate does research into load handling for the power grid. They’re really famous for that. They’re working on battery technology. When I worked at the University of Utah in the early ‘70s, I actually—I worked as a research specialist until I started working for the Department of Public Safety where I was the industrial hygienist. My boss there was the chief of police for the university police. So before that, I worked for a project that was funded by a government agency called ERDA. Any of you guys heard of ERDA before? Franklin: Energy Research and—yes. Beck: Energy—yeah. Franklin: I know the acronym. Beck: It was DOE but not on steroids. Franklin: Right, they were pre-DOE, right? But post-AEC. Beck: Right. And I was working on a sodium sulfur storage battery. The military was funding it. Ford Motor Company was funding it for electric cars. The military was really interested in having a good storage battery where they could have electric motors in tanks. They could mount tank offensives and stuff without making noise. Like when you fire those big diesels up? Oh, the element of surprise is not there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. No, it’s very different when a Chevy Volt goes down the street than even a regular car. Beck: I drive a Prius and I have to be very careful in parking lots because people don’t hear you. Because I’m totally electric when I get rolling. After I back out and I’m just going really slow, I’m on total battery power. And unless I’m making noise going across the asphalt, I can sneak up on people. And they look up and you actually scare them. You know? Franklin: Yeah, that’s happened to me. Beck: You have to be really careful. Well, anyway, so, they have five different directorates at Battelle. Battelle used to do research on water going through the dams and the fish. They used lasers to do that research. They have special things that they’ve built to simulate dams and they made special little floats that are smolts that they run through the—and they did these different aeration things and they had these lasers that they can actually see what was happening to these smolts. Because it takes pictures, so many frames a second, with the laser beam. I mean, it’s pretty cool. That sort of stuff’s not classified. When I worked there, I was the laser safety officer there for about five years. So I inspected all the lasers, made sure as best I could that we were operating them correctly and safely. There was one time in DOE that DOE had eight or ten accidents within a couple years where people had damaged their eyesight, lost their eyesight or were otherwise injured from lasers. So they got a really big deal on laser safety. They actually sent me from Battelle to Stanford. DOE has a lab at Stanford. And they gave us additional laser safety training. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: So they use a lot of lasers at Battelle. They use it at NSD, too. NSD, they use lasers for classified stuff, too. So if you’ve ever wondered how our drones are so accurate. Chk chk. [LAUGHTER] And that’s enough said. Franklin: No, and they are very accurate. My last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War and cleanup? Beck: Well, I’d like to go back just a step further. I’d like to go back pre-, say, World War II, say. During World War II and just after. The men that worked here at Hanford were absolute heroes. Because when you look at the history and you look at the exposures—try to document and calculate some of the exposures of these guys. They were every bit as brave, and, man, they were—I mean, B Reactor and some of the things that were done, they didn’t know if some of those things were even going to work. They didn’t know how they were going to work. They knew a little bit about radiation, but they didn’t know the doses they were going to receive. And they didn’t have any way to measure it like we do now. So I’d like people to remember that, boy, those veterans that worked and made the plutonium—whatever you consider about the atomic bomb, the two that were dropped—the people at Hanford that made the plutonium for the second bomb, they were heroes. Those guys really gave. And after that, during the Cold War, there was more of that. You know, McCluskey was hurt in ’69 and there was a lot of injuries and a lot of exposures. We’ve got beryllium exposure, sensitization of beryllium from machining triggers and from the rods that went into the reactors that got beryllium on them in some places. And there’s all kinds of other illnesses that these guys have gotten, right? That they got protecting our country and they got by ending, by winning the Cold War, essentially. I’m a member of Cold War Patriots, and I think they’re right on. Wasn’t so much my generation, but the people that worked back in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘70s, those are the people that really won the Cold War, in my opinion. And when the wall came down, when the Soviets—that wall came down, that was—I have no doubt that was a direct result, at least in partial of what was done here at Hanford and at Oak Ridge and at Lawrence Livermore and all the DOE labs. There’s 12 of them. You know, there’s more research, I think, done in most of the DOE labs than the rest of the universities put together, realistically. Most of those, most of these DOE sites are associated with major universities. It’s quite phenomenal what the Department of Energy and these labs and the Hanford Site and other places have done. I mean, yeah, there’s contamination and there are things that happen. But, man, there was a lot of stuff that was done that needed to be done and was done. I’m just—it’s kind of cool to be associated with it, actually. And it wasn’t a big deal, actually, from ’89 to when I retired in 2010 or 2011, it’s not a—we did a little. But it was those people before ’89 that were really, really—I think every time I go somewhere and I tell people about Hanford—where’s Hanford? What did you guys do? I’m on an airplane or I’m telling a relative. All my relatives in Denver think, you know, hey, you glow in the dark. Well, you talk with them about it and most of those people—the only thing they have, the only conception they have is how inhumane the atomic bomb was. I’ll give you, it’s a wicked weapon, but—they probably shouldn’t have killed—I don’t know. But those guys did what they were told. They did the very best they could, and there were some great, brilliant people that did this. There’s brilliant people working on these DOE sites today. They certainly get marginalized by the people in Washington, DC that don’t even know what’s going on. I’ll get a little political here, and I’ll tell you that I read an article recently that when the current administration came in, the guy who’s the head of the Department of Energy, they went out in Washington, DC, the head office of the DOE, they reserved all these parking places, and they got everybody ready to give these people that they thought from this administration would come to get all kinds of information, to get information on what do you guys do? Because the previous administration had done it, the administration before that had done it, the administration before that had done it. [WHISPERING] Nobody even showed up. [FULL VOICE] So the camera can hear me, nobody even showed up! It’s disgraceful. I’m sorry? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, no, that’s okay. Beck: I just say, you guys don’t even—you’re voting on a budget, you want to cut DOE’s budget. You don’t even know what the labs do! I mean, if you’ve got an opinion, that’s okay. But be informed. They didn’t even show up; it was like, well, we know exactly what you guys do and it’s nothing and it can be done away with. It’s just crazy. I think the future is in these small nuclear reactors, these pod reactors. I do not think solar and wind is going to replace coal-fired power plants. If we’re really going to have an energy renaissance, if we’re really going to get on a good energy program, we’re going to have to get on nuclear energy. It’s the only option. There are some people that will have some cold showers and they’re going to figure that out. I really believe that. So I think DOE, well, DOE labs, these labs that they have, the 12 of them are the ones that are going to make that happen and happen really well. And I think it can be done safely. I don’t know why people are ignoring the Department of Energy, it just—it baffles me. But, see, I’m one of the outspoken people that believes in nuclear energy and everybody else, I mean—I get people that just—[LAUGHTER] They’d like to beat me up, frankly. So, any other questions? Franklin: No, thank you so much, Ed. You know, I did have one other question and I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask—what did your wife do the whole time that you guys were here and that you were working out on Site? Beck: Hmm. Well. She raised the family. Did a great job. This is our 44th year of marriage. We’ll be married 44 years August the 18th. I’ll tell you one funny thing about coming here. When I got the job, and I said, you know, this is a really good job. The reason it was, I got a 50% salary increase when I came here. Franklin: That’s pretty significant. Beck: That’s from working at the University of Utah. It’s a little bit, deals with the risks that were here, but they also paid very well. So I said I think we ought to go. So we sold our house and everything. Well, we came for the house hunting trip. We had—[LAUGHTER]—so I get the family in the van, and I drive them from Salt Lake City. And we come down over Cabbage Hill, Cabbage Mountain which is by Pendleton. Wow, this is beautiful! This is just beautiful! We go out through the wheat fields, you know? I-84. Wow, this is nice, this is nice. Then I turn on 82. We go across the Columbia River. Oooh, this is good! Look at that dam! Look at the water! Then we come up to Kennewick, and she says, where are the trees? She says, where are you moving us? She says, there’s nothing green! And I said, well, when they flew me for the interview, I says, it’s green from the air. I says, they’ve got lots of corn fields and stuff. And then I—I didn’t know much about the place, so the house hunting trip, I rented—I stayed at the Motel 6 in Pasco. You’re on fixed income, they give you so much money for a house hunting trip. I shouldn’t have done that, but I thought, Motel 6, usually they’re pretty good. Not a really good area, and we got in the van, and the sun came up the next morning going to get breakfast in the hotel and she says, gee, I hope there’s a better part of town. So we ended up over by the mall. We bought—we’re living in the same house that we lived in, we bought that house in ’89, we’re still there. She raised our three kids, they went through high school here, they went through college. One went to WSU, one went to UW, and the other one was an National Merit scholarship winner and he got his choice of where he wanted to go, so he went to Arizona State. Then he got his PhD from University of California San Diego. Franklin: Wow. Beck: So. We had two transplants in that time because of our daughter having e. coli, she lost the use of her—she had destroyed her kidneys, and that’s another long story. But I donated a kidney in ’90 and then my wife donated one in 2003. So that’s basically what she did. She did home hemodialysis for six years after my daughter rejected my kidney. Until she was in good enough health that we could do the transplant, give her a kidney. That’s what I was going to tell you about health insurance. It was—this is an off—you know, I don’t know if you want to stop the camera, but this is, I think is kind of important for the where we came from and where we are now. I was at the University of Utah and I chose this program for insurance called the Preferred Provider Program. I mean, it started, it was new, they were starting all kinds of things back in the ‘80s. This is in ’81. So FHP had just come on. FHP I think is still in California. But for a while, FHP was our insurer, then I chose this Preferred Provider Program. And I thought, well, in the state of Washington there was no—you could not exclude previous illnesses. What do they call that now? Tom Hungate: Pre-existing. Franklin: Pre-existing condition. Beck: Pre-existing conditions. The law in Washington with all the insurance was no such thing as a pre-existing condition. And they paid well. Well, at the University of Utah, I was on a preferred provider program. When my daughter got sick, she spent 90 days in hospital, 30 in intensive care. The doctor that took care of her was from the medical school there. He was a specialist. He was a nephrologist. Because she started losing—hemolytic uremic syndrome can destroy your kidneys, and it did destroy hers. I was deeply in debt to that man, because he wasn’t one of the preferred providers on that program, and I didn’t know it. He was the only game in town. He was the only guy that could take care of her. He was on faculty at the University of Utah and he was insured through the same—he felt so bad. He says, I do not believe what’s happened. This is back in ’85—well, actually, ’87. He says, I don’t believe this could be happening in our country. How could this be? He says, you owe me this much. Because the insurance company wouldn’t pay because he had to sign up on the dotted line, you know? So he wrote off that entire amount of money I owed him, which was lots. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And so—and I had a lot of other expenses, too. I almost declared bankruptcy. So then this job—I started looking for another job because I had to pay off the bills. And we came to Washington State. One of the reasons I came here—I was interested in working at Hanford and I had a lot of experience to give them, but also they pay high salaries and there was no pre-existing conditions on their health insurance. And to move anywhere else would’ve been suicide, economic suicide. There was a time everybody was telling me, well, you ought to divorce your wife and if you do that she’ll be able to get medical assistance from the state. They were telling me to do that. I said, no, I’m not going to do that! But that was—there were a lot of people that were thinking and probably did do that to solve the—and then they’d just live with their wife, anyway. They were divorced, but— Franklin: Sure, to get—to be legally single. Beck: Anyway. That’s another—I think that’s kind of important. So, when my daughter lost her kidneys, use of her kidneys, we’d been living here for about ten years, she had about 10% left. We were told when we went over to children’s hospital for a physical that she had to have a transplant. So then I donated and I was working at HEHF at the time. So I donated, and since it was my daughter, the medical insurance covered her because it was a pre-existing condition and it paid for my hospital stay and my removal of my kidney, you know, and all of that. It was just so much better system. And then she rejected mine, and so she was on dialysis for six years and she was such a young age, she was in grade school at the time, that my wife wanted her to have a really normal, as normal a childhood as possible, and not have to go to a dialysis center with adults where the prognosis is not that good, and most of them are—you know, this is a little girl, she’s just seven or eight. So she went to Children’s Hospital and learned how to do dialysis herself. They trained her at Children’s to do dialysis on our daughter. We installed a dialysis machine in our basement. I got a water softener, I can put out a stream of water like that, still. You don’t need one like that, but I went over to Pasco to their dialysis center and I asked the engineer there, I said, what kind of water softener did you use? Because they said, you’re going to have to have a really big softener to do this, because it’s a lot of water. I paid the big bucks, we got it put in the basement and my wife dialyzed her four times a week for six years. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And that’s pumping blood through a filter. It’s not just pumping water. They have a type of dialysis where you can fill up a sack inside, but we actually did it, blood dialysis. That’s what she did when she was here. She couldn’t work. Franklin: Sure, no, that makes sense. Beck: But that was a good thing because Hanford paid so well. And I’ve never been in debt since. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Beck: So, I don’t know, I’m pretty emotionally attached to this part of the country. Franklin: No, there’s a lot of good reasons for that. Well, Ed, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us today. Beck: You’re welcome. Franklin: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/cy9XisqownE">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview HEHF (Hanford Environmental Health Foundation) N Reactor 222-S Laboratory 200 Area 200 West T Plant Tank Farms B Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1989- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Beck Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Animals in research Industrial hygiene Radioactive contamination Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Edward Beck moved to Richland, Washington in 1989 to work at the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation (HEHF). An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/31/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2dfabc7cdd127876e2887c8b732f24cc.JPG 28eb938062eb4770c1b8f122a4933867 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tom Bennett Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Tom Bennett on September 18, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Tom about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Tom Bennett: Full name is Thomas J. Bennett. T-H-O-M-A-S. Middle initial J. And then Bennett, B-E-N-N-E-T-T. Franklin: Great, thanks. And do you prefer Tom? Bennett: I go by Tom, yes. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Unless it’s academic circles. Franklin: I’m fine with—casual’s fine with me. So, Tom, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for Hanford Site. Bennett: I graduated from UCLA in 1964. My goal was to get a long ways away from the Los Angeles area. The final choice was between Houston where they were doing the man on the moon which was another five years before that happened, and Hanford, which to me, it was exciting because it was nuclear energy. Franklin: What was your degree in? Bennett: Engineering. Franklin: Engineering, okay. Just basic engineering? Bennett: Yeah, well, UCLA thought they were way ahead of everyone. In your junior and senior year, if you were an engineering major, you had to take two courses in electrical engineering, a course in nuclear engineering, a course or two in mechanical engineering. They tried to spread everything, because someone had done a study and they observed that people who were a mechanical engineer, five years later they were working as a civil engineer, and vice versa. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: So they tried to make it real broad. And then I went to University of Washington, I got a master’s degree in nuclear engineering and then a doctorate in civil engineering from WSU. Franklin: Oh, okay, and when did you finish up at WSU? Bennett: ’88. Franklin: ’88, oh, okay. But you weren’t in school—were you in school that entire time? Or were you working? Bennett: No, I worked at Hanford from ’64 to ’70, but I took ’67 and ’68 off to get the master’s degree from University of Washington. And then I went over to WSU between ’87 and ’88 to complete my doctorate. Franklin: Okay. [CLEARS THROAT] Sorry. Tell me about your work at Hanford. What did you do? Bennett: Well, I started off in the 300 Area. You had to—they had a trainee program, I think it was. You had to work someplace while you got your security clearance. We had the badges. The first one was a red badge, then a yellow badge, then a green badge is when you finally had your Q clearance. I worked at 300 Area; I remember working with Bill Bright and Carl somebody. They had a machine there that they took plutonium in a gassed-out container and then they had a smasher that would—when it was red hot and it’d been out-gassing for an hour or so, they’d have the smasher come down on it, and they wanted to get 99% theoretical density plutonium. Franklin: So you mean to like turn it into a solid? Bennett: Well, it was already a solid. Franklin: Already a solid. Bennett: But they heated it up to red-hot and a little tube came out the top and then they cut the tube off, and the smasher came down and crushed it. So, good thing it didn’t blow up, too. Franklin: Yeah! What amount, were we talking grams, or— Bennett: About a kilogram. Franklin: A kilogram. Bennett: I think. Because if they get too much, it goes critical on you. Franklin: Right. And what was the purpose of that? Why— Bennett: I don’t know. Well, a guy by the name of John Burnham, I think it was, it was his idea to do this smashing. He got all kinds of credit for it and awards and so on and so forth. It was his pet project. I wound up working there to start with. Franklin: What did you do there? Bennett: Watched. Franklin: Just watched, just observed? Bennett: Pretty much, yeah. Franklin: Okay. I wonder if you could tell me about the—talk a little bit about security, since you mentioned Q clearance. Security and secrecy, what was that process like and how long did it take? Bennett: I think it took about six months, but I didn’t know anything about clearances when I came here. But you had three different colored badges, one was when you start and then you get partially cleared. You get another color. And the green was the final security clearance. I believe they were called—what, do you have—you’ve talked to other people about this, haven’t you? Franklin: A little bit. Bennett: What do they call those clearances? Top secret or something like that? Franklin: I don’t—yeah, I’m not a clearance expert. Bennett: Yeah, one of the first colors was yellow and one was red, and then green was when you finally could go out in the Area and work. Franklin: Right, okay. So what did you do after you got your clearance? Bennett: I had three or four of the three-month assignments. One of them was at the 300 Area with the crusher or smasher. And then another was at N Reactor, I believe. It was the new production reactor at the time. And I think I had one at B Reactor operations. Because I remember they put me on—they had ABCD shift. And you worked six days and then seven swings and then six graveyards. And you got one-and-two-thirds days off between swing and night and then after you did the graveyard, you got four-and-two-thirds days off to come back and start the ABCD shift over again. What I remember about that was I could not adjust to it. Some of these guys had done it for 20, 30 years and they got along fine. I could not adjust to the graveyards. Franklin: And that’s where you would be there overnight, right? Bennett: Well, you’d be there from midnight ‘til 8 in the morning, or 11—well, it took an hour to get out there and an hour to get back, so whatever your shift was, you wound up doing ten or 11 hours. Or if you have, I don’t know what, half hour for lunch, maybe it’s 12 hours to do eight hours. Franklin: Wow. Bennett: It was more than the eight. Because the ride out was an hour and the ride back was an hour on the buses. I know I was not real happy with the salary, because it wasn’t as big as I thought I was worth. But they said, well, Tom, you can ride the bus for 50 miles for a nickel. Oh, well, if that’s the—I assume that was the economy, so that the money I made would be a lot. Franklin: Where did you live when you worked out there? Bennett: 2009 George Washington Way. Franklin: And what was that, was it a house or apartments or--? Bennett: It was a house. I meant—I tried to find it on the way in, but I didn’t—I was past it, the 2300 block before I saw it. I’ll see if I can find it on the way back out. But first I lived there, and then later on, I lived at 2404 Concord, I lived at 1408 Perry Court, and eventually bought a house. Franklin: Did you live in any Alphabet Houses? Bennett: F Houses? No. Franklin: Any Alphabet Houses? Bennett: Yeah, I know what, B, B, D, F. No, I lived at 2404 Concord—2009 George Washington Way was the first one, and then at 1408 Perry Court for a while, and then eventually wound up at 2404 Concord, and that’s the one I bought. Franklin: Oh, okay. So when you were working out these graveyards at B Reactor, what was your job, what were you doing? Bennett: What I remember is, since I was kind of a trainee, I’d go through the records. It was really fascinating to me to read about the early days when they started Hanford up, they had no idea what was going on or how big it would have to be. Enrico Fermi was out here. The old guys were here then that had been here when he was here, and they called him Henry Farmer. But interestingly the older guys were doing the work and the young guys were telling them what to do and how to do it. Franklin: Really? Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: And why was that? Bennett: Well, this was during the war, World War II. People had to have jobs. If you were in the Army, if you were young, you were in the Army or the Navy or the Air Force or Marines. And if you were older, a lot of them, I think 50,000 people came up here to work at Hanford. They had a big camp out there someplace, fenced in where you lived. Well, what I remember doing was reading the historical records about when it started up. I know it was because of Fermi that first they were going to have just the circular—well, B Reactor, what is that, 1,004 tubes? Franklin: 2,000 tubes. Bennett: 2,000 tubes? Well, originally we were going to just have circular form, because that’s the most efficient. But Enrico Fermi made sure that they had the corners, the tubes. And sure enough, the, I believe it’s zirconium that when they started up, everything went great and then all the sudden, phew, everything went down. Franklin: The xenon poisoning. Bennett: Xenon! Yeah, the xenon poisoning. Fermi figured that out. They figured it was xenon. They put more, they filled up the rest of the tubes, the corners, and that was enough to overcome the xenon to get things going. And you’ve been out to B Reactor, haven’t you? Franklin: Yes. Bennett: Yeah, and you see how big that thing is, and they built that, what, 60, 70 years ago? It was quite a deal. Franklin: It was. I’m wondering if you could describe a typical work day out at B Reactor when you were out there. Bennett: Well, I’d ride the bus out there. The older guys on the bus, they played cards all the way out there. I thought, these guys are kind of crazy. But then six weeks later, I’m playing cards right along with them. I learned how to play pinochle. I didn’t know anything about, virtually nothing about cards. But it cost me quite a few nickels but I did learn. I got to be as good as the rest of them after a while. I thought it was kind of weird, because these guys would play cards all the way out, during lunch they’d play cards, and they’d play cards all the way back, for nickels. Pinochle for nickels. Eventually I was in there with the thick of them. I do remember at N Reactor, a fellow named Milton Lewis. He had been a teacher at UCLA when I was there and I ran across him again. They had three guys there. One was Milt Lewis, another was Warren Macadam and the third was Roy Shoemaker. And the workers there nicknamed them the Shoe, the Jew and the Shrew. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I’m wondering—stories about the bus are great. What was your day-to-day job at B Reactor, besides reading up on the history, what were you tasked with doing out there? Bennett: Well, it was cold operations. They ran the reactor, they sat there and watched the reactor go. From time to time they’d have to refuel it, and I’d watch that, be on the front face. Like an idiot, I wondered what was inside the tubes, so I looked inside one when it was empty. And then I realized, there’s probably radiation coming out of that into my eyes, probably not a real good idea. But I’m a young kid, 23 or 24, not knowing anything. But that was— Refueling was one of the things. Around back—well, when the tubes or the fuel elements, when they’d been irradiated enough, they pushed them out the back, they went into a little pool that was 20 feet deep. And you’d go around back—not while they were discharging them, but afterwards, you could go around back and you could look into that 20-foot pool and you could see the glow. It had a greenish-blue glow from the irradiated fuel elements. And they’d sit there for a while, then they’d take them to the 200 Area and process them. Interestingly enough, 2,000 pounds of uranium would make two pounds of plutonium, or maybe one pound. I mean, it was extremely small percentage. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bennett: When you think of the 200 Area where they did all those separations, how much—well, they put the things in double-shell tanks, now those tanks are rotting, it’s leaking into the Columbia River. All this is still going on and it’s, what, 60, 70 years later. Franklin: Did you ever go out to the 200 Area at all? Bennett: No. Well, I drove by it every day on the way to work. Franklin: Sure. Bennett: But I didn’t go and look at it. I knew they had tunnels. When they built it, I remember from reading a long time ago that they were going to have to use remote control to handle these things, so they used a remote control to build it. Then how deep were those troughs, those trenches? Were they— Franklin: Oh, I don’t remember off the top of my head. Bennett: I remember reading about it. They were long. Franklin: They were very long. I think they were something like 20 feet deep and then 40 feet wide. They’re all cells and they’re all—yeah. Bennett: Almost a mile long or whatever they had, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Really, really long, yeah. Like several football fields. Bennett: Right. Franklin: Yeah, huge. So you worked at 300 Area and then N and then B. Did you work anywhere—and how long did you work at— Bennett: Each assignment, I think, was three months long. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: And I think I had three or four of them. Franklin: Then what did you do after that? Bennett: I worked at—I believe I worked at N Reactor. And then I left in ’67 to go over at University of Washington to get a master’s degree. Came back in ’68. And from ’68 to ’70, I’m pretty sure I was at N Reactor. And that was exciting. They were producing power as well as plutonium. Franklin: Yeah. What was your job then at N Reactor? Bennett: I was called nuclear engineer. I worked for Roy Shoemaker. There was seven or eight guys in the group. What I noticed—because I noticed that all the new engineers that came in, in six months to a year, they were gone. I was just aware of it, sort of in passing. Then after I went and got my master’s degree and came back, instead of working for the old guy, he’s gone now, Shoemaker is, but he’d been an engineering instructor at Oregon or Oregon State, one of those colleges. When I came back, I worked for Paul Cohen. He was a young guy; he was 30, 35, something like that. He had a fairly good-sized group. I think—this was back in I think the 300 Area, it was downtown. I worked for him. And the contrast between working for Shoemaker and working for Cohen was like between night and day. I understood why all those guys left Shoemaker after I worked for a good supervisor. I was a brand-new kid fresh out of college; I didn’t have any experience, didn’t know who a good instructor—or good teacher from a good—what do you call it, supervisor from a bad one. But after I had two supervisors, I realized why all those guys left after they’d been there not very long. Franklin: And what was it about Shoemaker versus Cohen that made it—made people leave so early? Bennett: Well, one of the things was Shoemaker had a pet. He’d give the same assignment—like a college professor—he gave me an assignment he gave his pet. And I remember, I was fairly good at math, so I figured out an exact solution to this thing. And this other kid, the pet, he did an approximate solution. He came out to my office—I was out in the Area a little bit. It was a different building. It wasn’t the N Reactor building; it was an outbuilding. He came out there, because he had an office inside, and he wanted to know all about my performance of calculations for such a thing. Eventually I figured out he wanted to know what I’d done because I’d done a better job than he had and he was the pet. This didn’t go over well with him. Franklin: Oh, so kind of playing favorites, playing people off— Bennett: Well, he’s playing favorites but the un-favorite did a better job than the favorite did. So the pet didn’t like that. Franklin: Yeah, I bet not. Bennett: But then that didn’t happen with Cohen. Cohen was a very good supervisor. Franklin: And you worked with Cohen at N Reactor as well? Bennett: No. I wish I could remember—wish I had those sheets that I lost, because it would tell me where I worked and when. I can only remember three of the four assignments; I don’t remember what the fourth one was. Franklin: That’s okay. Bennett: It’s been 60, 70 years. Franklin: So when you say nuclear engineer and working with a group of people, what kind of job is that? Is it a lot of calculations work, are you in the control room--? Bennett: Well, one of the things we did, we had a—we put a bunch of thermocouples in the back of the reactor in a tube. We wanted to get the heat distribution. It was a tube-in-tube fuel element. They had about an inch diameter tube that went down the middle, then they had some struts, and then they had another tube outside it, which was kind of an interesting arrangement, so they could get water flowing between the two tubes. We wanted to get the heat distribution of that, so we set up the thermocouples to measure the heat, and then figured out how hot it was getting and we could use that to improve the design for the next generation. It was that type of work. That’s one assignment I remember. Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you remember any other assignments? Bennett: No. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: I did like doing the math, though. Figuring out that—you get the regular dimensions and the tolerance, plus and minus, so you figure out all the variations and how much difference there can be from smallest to largest and how much fluid would go through it and what the approximations are. Franklin: Cool. And then after ’70, did you leave Hanford? Bennett: I went to WSU to work on a doctorate. Franklin: Oh, okay. And when did you start that? Bennett: In ’72, I believe. I think I was there from ’70 to ’72. Do you remember, Mary Ann? Okay. Because I worked from—I went to work in January or February, no, late January of ’64, and I worked there until ’67. Then I went over to University of Washington, ’67, ’68. Came back in ’68 and ’68 to ’70, I worked here at Hanford. And then ’70 to ’72, I taught at WSU. I taught statics, dynamics and fluid mechanics during those two years at WSU. Franklin: Okay, and that’s while you were working on your doctorate? Bennett: Right. But they gave me a title, pre-doctoral teaching associate. I taught those three courses. And took classes, too. Franklin: Okay. And then you finished your doctorate in ’72? Bennett: ’70—no, ’88. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: Yeah, I didn’t—how—what—I’m trying to remember why I didn’t—there was a reason I didn’t finish it in ’72. I’ll think of it later and tell you. Franklin: Sure. And then were you at WSU that entire time? Bennett: No. Just ’70 to ’72. And then I went to—I took a one-year temporary teaching assignment at a community college, Big Bend Community College in Moses Lake. I went there for one year, because Big Bend had finagled themselves a contract in Germany. What they did was they taught Army guys, well, servicemen, they gave them classes so they could get their—before Big Bend went there, they got GEDs. Big Bend had the bright idea of instead of giving the Army guys GEDs, they’d give them actual high school diplomas. This brought a lot of money in to the college. Because, you know, high school diplomas are a lot better than a GED. I used some of that money to start a circuit writer type program. Between ’72 and ’79, I think it was, ’78, I taught computer classes in 17 different high schools all the way from Cooley Dam in the north to Connell in the south and east and west from Quincy to Washtucna. Franklin: Oh, wow. Bennett: Remember I talked to you earlier about when you first started? My first year of doing those computer classes, I thought I’d really done a good job. And I looked back at it three or four years later, I was ashamed and embarrassed at how little I’d done the first year. Once it caught on. And at that time, Big Bend had a music teacher named Wayne Freeman. He had some kind of contacts with Hollywood, and he’d bring in people from Hollywood. They had what they called a play. What did they call—do you remember the names of those plays, Mary Ann? Mary Ann Bennett: Musical production. Bennett: Musical productions. The first time he brought Leonard Nimoy up and he played Oliver, played the lead role in Oliver. For eight or twelve years while Freeman was the music instructor, he brought these Hollywood-type people up. And they’d have a play, they had a 700 or 800-seat theater and it was packed for all four or five performances. Franklin: I was going to say, I imagine that’d be a pretty big deal for Moses Lake. Bennett: Oh, big deal. And that was the time I was doing the high schools and I’d have my high school classes come down to it and they just—they loved it. It was great. Franklin: When you say computer, were you working with mainframes and that kind of thing? Bennett: That’s what they had started off with, upper-left-corner-cut carts. You’ve seen them. Franklin: I’ve seen them. Never had to use them, but I’ve seen them. Bennett: Well, I would carry—I had a pickup truck. I would take the key punch machines to the high schools, and the kids would punch out their cards. I’d take them back and run them through the computer, and take them back with the output. And then they’d go back until they got them to run. That was a big deal then. But that was, what, in the ‘70s? It was long before they had the personal computers. Everything was mainframe. Franklin: Yup. So did you ever come back to working at Hanford? Bennett: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: No. I did that high school—what was really interesting to me was the only kids in these high schools that would take these classes was the top 2% or 3%. The kids that would go on to Harvard or Yale or BYU or some big type, University of Washington. These were really, really bright kids. I knew that they were smarter than the kids I was teaching at Big Bend. It took me a while to figure that out, too. Because I realized later that all I had was the top 2% or 3% of each high school. But I knew—why is it these high school kids are smarter than my college kids? Well, because they’re the top of the line. Franklin: So what were some of the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Bennett: Well, being involved with what ended World War II was a big thing to me. Because my dad was in the Philippines getting ready to take part in the invasion of Japan, which they figured, if that did happen would’ve been a million casualties. What was it, the Civil War only we took 750,000 from both sides in four or five years. I mean that would’ve really been bad because of the atomic bomb because of the crash program. In some of the reading I’ve done, what they essentially did was they took 50, 60 years of automatic research and condensed it into two or three, and the result was the atomic bomb. Franklin: Sure. So that was very rewarding to you, to be involved in kind of the continuation of that? Bennett: And what I thought—I thought it saved my dad’s life, probably. Franklin: What about the most challenging aspects? Earlier you mentioned that the graveyard shifts were pretty challenging. Bennett: Yeah, that was challenging. I couldn’t—I realized I couldn’t do it. I thought I was Superman, but I’m not. Franklin: Was there anything else that challenged you out there? Maybe the structure or some of the work or--? Bennett: Well, I thought it was exciting to do that type of work. And I enjoyed it and liked it. Franklin: Were you there when—no, you got there in ’64, so you weren’t there when Kennedy visited. Bennett: No, no, I wasn’t. But he had been out there. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Any memories of like the social scene or local politics in the Tri-Cities and Richland when you got here? Bennett: I remember a guy named Mike McCormack. He lived right behind us. Near, a block or so from George Washington Way. But he eventually got elected to Congress. I don’t know how long he stayed. Do you remember? Have you heard of him? Mike McCormack? Congressman Mike McCormack? Franklin: I’ll have to take a look at that. Bennett: I know he was in the state house and state senate and then he got elected to Congress. In the ‘70s, I’m pretty sure. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if you could describe ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Bennett: Well, I did read a lot about the—when I was doing those three-month assignments, there was a good deal of focus on security. Like I said, it took several months for me to get my clearance. You had to go through gates and somebody would check. If you didn’t have your pass, you didn’t go through the gate. That was for every place. Franklin: Did you ever forget your pass? Bennett: No. But I do remember when I was on these assignments, because I was a trainee, I did not get holiday pay. So during one graveyard shift, I was home sleeping and I did not work that day because they’d have to pay me time-and-a-half. But at 3:00 in the morning the guys out there called me, wanting to know how I was doing. You know, that type of humor. You sleeping okay, Tom? We’re getting paid holiday pay, you’re not. Franklin: How come you didn’t go back to Hanford after going to WSU? Bennett: Well, I took the one year temporary assignment at Big Bend. And like I said, they had the money from Germany. So I spent the next six or seven years teaching high school kids at like 17 different high schools. By then I was pretty much associated with the community college and I worked there until 1990. I left to get my master’s degree and somebody else took that program over and it collapsed. And I just taught at Big Bend until 1990. And then—I’m trying to remember what I did from 1990 to 2000. Mary Ann: You ran for office. Bennett: What’s that? Mary Ann: You ran for office. State representative. You ran for office. Bennett: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn’t—but that didn’t—that was just one run. What work was I doing? Mary Ann: You worked at Boeing. Bennett: Oh, that’s right, I did from ’79 to ’81, I went to Boeing, worked there. They were developing the 767 and I got to be senior engineer in tool design. That was really fun, working for Boeing. I loved that. Franklin: I bet. Bennett: When I went there, they just built this great big huge building. Somebody said, come on, we’re going to tour the building. So I went on a tour of the building. It was empty. At Hanford, they had all these programs, they’d schedule when it’s going to happen, they get stretched out, stretched out, stretched out. Something that was supposed to take two years would take ten. At Boeing, there’s an empty building, they’re going to do the 767. That was 1979, I went to the empty building. In 1981, airplane number six was rolling out the door. They have their schedules, they keep them. They said, if you don’t get your assignment done, you will stay there until it’s done. The one guy had to stay there for 36 hours. I went and talked to the supervisor. He wasn’t any good after 15, 16 hours, why’d you keep him 36? The supervisor says, Tom, do you know how much Boeing has to pay every day they are late delivering an airplane? I had no idea. $50,000 per day for a late plane. You have an assignment, you get that done or you stay until it’s done. So that was a different attitude and atmosphere than I’d had at Hanford. Franklin: Interesting. I guess that’s kind of the difference that a private company would— Bennett: Commercial. Franklin: Yeah, commercial company would take on a project versus— Bennett: You get an assignment, you get it done. Franklin: Right. I should’ve asked this a lot earlier, but I’m just kind of curious, how did you hear about Hanford? When you were in college and you were looking at places to go work, how did you hear about Hanford? Bennett: They had a job fair at UCLA. No, no, wait a minute. I went to—I think it was in Canada, there was a job fair I went to. That’s where I found out about Hanford. Which was back in United States and in Washington. Franklin: Right. Bennett: Which was where I lived anyway. Franklin: So they had like a booth or something there? Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: That would’ve been General Electric at the time. Bennett: Mm-hmm, it was General Electric at the time. But I went to a job fair, that’s how I found out about it. Franklin: Okay, interesting. So my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Bennett: Whatever you can get out of them. Franklin: What? Bennett: Whatever you can get from all the people that worked there. I’d like them to know that. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Are you going to do a summary of this when we’re all done? Franklin: What--? Bennett: Of your own? Franklin: What do you mean? Bennett: From what you’ve learned. You’re learning a lot of things, interviewing people like me. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah, I do. Bennett: And you’re going to put it together like Ken Burns did with his Vietnam thing? Franklin: Maybe. These— Bennett: That’s what I’d like to have them know, is your Ken Burns approach to this. Franklin: Okay. Well, we collect these and create—we do this more to generate primary sources, then researchers go through our archives of these interviews and draw what they want. It takes a lot of time to set these up and do them, so I don’t have as much time for writing as I would— I guess I’m asking you, if you kind of give me the opportunity to tell future generations what was the most important thing about being at Hanford during the Cold War? What would you like them to know about working in plutonium production during the Cold War? Bennett: It was exciting and dangerous at the same time. And like I say, I’m just one real small piece in it. I’d like to have them see the big picture. Franklin: Sure. Did you ever feel any danger being, either occupational or working at a site that was so important for the national defense effort? Bennett: Well, I do remember when we worked at the assignment where they smashed the hot thousand-degree plutonium when they compressed it. One day the alarms went off, and they all went off. Franklin: The radiation alarms? Bennett: Yeah, the radiation alarms. And Clarence Munson, I remember he was there, I asked him, what’s going on? He said, well, maybe we’re all crapped up. That was the expression, crapped up, for being irradiated. I think that the alarm had just misfired. But it was—everybody was scared for a while. Franklin: Sure. Did you have protection on, or were you just wearing a dosimeter? Bennett: No, you wore white. White. You had to have a radiation badge and then you had a white coat and you look like somebody in a hospital. Franklin: Right. Did you ever have an instance where you did get crapped up or a small amount or were contaminated? Bennett: Well, when I worked at N Reactor, I had several what was like fuel elements on my desk, I used them for paper weights and stuff. I didn’t realize there’s probably a lot of zirconium in those things and that’s not good for you. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: So I probably got some exposure to zirconium that I didn’t need. I used them for weights. I thought I was young and strong and I’d do like that with them. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] That’s funny. Funny in kind of a— Bennett: Stupid way. Franklin: Yeah. Well, Tom, thank you so much for coming and interviewing with us. I really appreciate you taking the time out. And thank you for sharing your stories about Hanford. Bennett: Okay. Franklin: Did you have anything else that you wanted to add before we— Bennett: I’ll probably think of all sorts of things on the way home. Franklin: Okay, well, you can always send us an email. Bennett: And if I can find those papers that describe everything I did at Hanford, I can probably go twice as long as I’ve gone now. Franklin: Sure. That’d be great. Maybe you can— Bennett: Now, who—where would I go to get that, do you know? Franklin: Oh, to get copies of the papers? Bennett: Copies of my—somebody kept track, because they gave them to me at one time. Franklin: Oh, goodness. I don’t know. We’re just—here at WSU, we’re kind of on the outside looking in. Bennett: Okay, where’s the inside now? Franklin: You know, it’s all run by Department of Energy. MSA is the main contractor. But I just—I don’t know— Bennett: Where’s the Department of Energy headquarters? In the big building downtown, the Federal Building? Franklin: Yeah, yeah, Jadwin, yeah. Bennett: Jadwin. Okay, that’s probably where I should go. Franklin: Records, yeah. That would be, that’s where I’d start. Bennett: Do you have a card? Franklin: What’s that? Bennett: Can I have one of your cards? Franklin: Sure. Yeah, we can get you that. Yeah. We good? [VIDEO CUTS] [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Bennett: When I was in the 300 Area, they had these fuel elements. Anyway, the guy had two of them, and he said, here, Tom, take these. So I was going to put them together. This was a trap. They had a guy on each side of me. They grabbed my arms like this. They said, if you had put those together, you’d see a blue flash and be dead in ten days. That was the type of coarse humor—kill a guy. Franklin: Jeez. That’s a really serious thing to joke about. Bennett: It is! Well, I didn’t—and that’s part of the reason I did so much study when I was doing the rotating things. I wanted to find out what— Franklin: What could kill you? Bennett: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Mary Ann: There was also the beryllium. Bennett: Yeah, well, it was beryllium? What did I say, zirconium? Well, it’s beryllium I think gets in your lungs and screws you up. Franklin: Yeah, yes it does. Bennett: And they use beryllium to assemble those fuel elements. Franklin: Yes. And they use them in the can monitoring units as well. Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: Yup. We have one of those in our collection and it took quite a lot of paperwork to get it to be released. Because—I mean, it’s inside a spring—you’d have to take the thing apart to be exposed, but, yeah, it’s—beryllium’s not something to play around with. Bennett: True, true. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Yeah, I’ll go over to Jadwin and find out. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. <a href="https://youtu.be/alBP3Gpds0g">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area N Reactor B Reactor 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1964- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tom Bennett Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear engineering Civil engineering Nuclear reactors Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear power plants Description An account of the resource Tom Bennett moved to Richland, Washington in 1964 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/18/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9824ec8966bf981ce8951152b797944e.JPG bf9b93cefcb51ac53d04c8b194cee864 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Braten Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Walt Braten on January 18, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Walt about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, could you state and spell your full name for us? Walt Braten: Okay. I’m Walter James Braten. And it’s spelled B-R-A-T-E-N. Franklin: And Walter is--? How do you spell “Walter”? Braten: W-A-L-T-E-R. Middle initial J for James. Franklin: Thanks. And do you prefer Walter or Walt? Braten: Walt is fine. Franklin: Okay, great. So, Walt, tell me how you came to the Hanford area. Braten: I had been working at a job that became more and more less-satisfying and I was looking for something else. I went into a gun store and talked to the people I’d been visiting with. I said, where’s so-and-so? And they said, well, he’s gone to work for Hanford. He’s got a great job. And I said, really? Tell me about it. And so he told me to come to the Federal Building and look into becoming a patrolman. So I did so, and after a time, they called me and asked me to come down for an interview, and then hired me. As a Hanford patrolman. But they have classes for people to prepare to be patrolmen, and it wasn’t going to start for some weeks. They said, would you like to come work just any old job we can scare up until the job opens—the training starts? So I said, sure, and I became a delivery guy, running around delivering phone books and all kinds of stuff. And then the training started. And we had several large books of how a patrolman should dress, how long their hair should be, and all the details of their job. After going through all that, we had also a lot of physical training. We had to climb a ladder that was held up by cables and that spooked some of the would-be patrolman. And carry heavy weights and run a certain distance. I did all that. And they hired me. So then I had a training session and it was physical and also information. I had to run a mile in a certain length of time and all that. And I did all that, even though I’d been working at desks for years before. I wasn’t quite as zippy, and I was a little older than most of the other would-be patrolmen. And I had a pretty good time, and I enjoyed the job. Lots of shooting and knowing what we should do and not do in a radiation area. Then I was hired and at first, I was—I think they called it a red badge or whatever—they didn’t give me a gun until I had some training. So mostly I just let cars in and out of the plant. I had to look at their badges, look in their lunchbox, look in their purses, look in their trunk and wave them on. And that, you can imagine, that got pretty boring. But they had other jobs, like tactical response team and traffic and working at the computer, person in charge of letting people in and out of the plant, making plutonium. And also they had a boat, a jet boat on the Columbia, and they had a helicopter. And I applied for everything. So I worked traffic, and I worked running the computerized protection for the Z Plant. And generally had an interesting time. Franklin: Okay, what year was it that you started out at Hanford? Braten: Oh, gee, I don’t remember. Franklin; Do you remember the decade? Braten: Pardon me? Franklin: Do you remember the, like, kind of a guess or like a timespan, what decade it would have been? Braten: Well, see, I’d say I was in my 50s. And I was born in 1930. Franklin: Okay. Braten: So—and then I stayed about 15 years. Franklin: Okay. Braten: At Hanford. Franklin: So that would’ve been like the late ‘70s, early ‘80s? Braten: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So you became a patrolman in your 50s. Braten: Right. Franklin: That is kind of an—older, I think, than the average person who—kind of, new patrolman. Braten: Yes. But I was able to do it. And I had a degree in—a bachelors—and I was accustomed to working with people in the other jobs I’ve had. So I had a good time. We had to be very careful and not make mistakes and let someone in who shouldn’t be in. And on everyone’s badge, there was information on their level of security and which plants they would be allowed in, and some other things. So it was imperative that we keep the security. Because this is extremely important; it was plutonium. We had to beware of the enemy, of course. Probably knew as much about it as we did. And we had to be aware of the love triangle where somebody wants to kill somebody at the plant. That had happened in another plant, many—out of state here. Franklin: Are you talking about the—oh, the lady—Karen Silkwood, is that--? Braten: No. Franklin: Okay. So—sorry, explain this “love triangle” thing a bit more. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of this. Braten: Well, if somebody is involved with someone not their husband or wife and the party being cheated on could decide to kill himself and the Romeo. This is what one person did, I was told. And they had a mess to clean up. Franklin: Do you know where that had happened? Braten: I was told it was in Idaho. Franklin: Oh, okay. So— Braten: This is all gossip. Franklin: Sure, hearsay. Braten: And then there was the disgruntled employee who’s going to be fired and wants to be vengeful and destructive. So we had lots of drills in the middle of the night. After I got on working as a traffic person—I liked it because I could run around. I had certain places I had to check. But they’d announce, intruder at certain place. And I would immediately accelerate, tell them I was coming. They had patrolmen involved in certain positions and jobs in that situation. At first we didn’t know if it was real, and then they made it real—let us know that it was a—I mean, let us know that it was a drill. Because we were going in loaded, with M-16s and pistols and shotguns and—for real. And we’d have some exercises. They brought in some people out of state with lasers on the weapons, and we could shoot at each other and disable and “kill” the other person. This was excellent training. We had a good time doing that, except when they’d have me walking around to be the first guy to get shot. That wasn’t fun. Anyway, our jobs were much like night watchmen at times, going through the buildings, making sure someone hadn’t left their coffee maker on or water running or anything that shouldn’t be happening. We also were checking for breaches of security. We had some file cabinets that had combinations on them, and they contained secret documents. If I went in the office and tried the handle and pulled it open, that was a breach. And we’d have to call the supervisor to come in and inventory the contents and so on. So that made us popular, too. Franklin: Did that ever happen? Braten: I didn’t find any. We would pick up their desk blotter and look under it, because we were told some people wrote their combination there. So we tried to think, as human beings, open the desk drawer if it was not locked and just look. That kept us busy all night. In one of the plants, they had a flood and the water brought up radiation out of the tile. And when I went in, I had—they called it SWP. They had booties and clothes and we went in and I managed to get my feet contaminated. They called it getting crapped up. Franklin: Yup. Braten: That delayed the normal routine. Periodically, we’d have an hour in the middle of our day to exercise. They tried to keep us physically fit and aware. And doing it right. There were dangers, of course, with contamination. If we went on top of any of the buildings, we had to get surveyed, because the bird droppings were radiated, would contaminate our shoes. We just had to deal with this existence of something invisible, odorless, tasteless, but it could kill us. Franklin: Sure. Braten: I enjoyed the job. We would examine the people driving in with their glove compartment and trunk and whatever. And when the busses came in, we’d hop on. Many of the people were asleep. Sometimes, I’d say, welcome to Disneyland West, and wake them up. I have to look in your purses and check your badges. One time, I looked at a guy’s badge and there was a woman’s picture on it. And I said, what’s this? And he said, oh, I got my wife’s badge. She’s got mine! So, we helped him go into the outside of the place he wanted to go in, to the guard’s station, where his manager could come up and write him a temporary badge. And his wife somewhere was going through the same process. We had some problems with people sneaking in, back when the coyote pelts were valuable. The animals on Hanford were tame, and they would come in and shoot them. So we patrolmen had to roam around in the dark and try to catch them. We never did. But I think two patrolmen managed to bump into each other in the dark. We had a helicopter that was French, had a heat indicator, could fly over and see people or animals. That helped a lot. Franklin: Were there any breaches or anything while you were working as a patrolman? Braten: No, not really. We were warned that the peace people would might sneak in and try to make a scene. But that never happened. That I saw. I don’t think it happened at Hanford. Mostly, it was people who were lost. They’d come into the Hanford Barricade and to the T where if they turned left, they’d go down to the Columbia, and turn right, they’d come back into town, or straight ahead into the Hanford Area. We had one guy show up—I didn’t deal with him—who was bound and determined he was going to go straight ahead because he had gone straight ahead, and by God there was a ferry in there. We told him, no, he couldn’t pay his toll. If he’d go out, turn right, and go down to the Columbia, and if there wasn’t a great big bridge, please come back and tell us. He didn’t come back, so he must’ve found bridge. But ignored the “come back and tell us.” Sometimes people would show up and dancing about really needing a restroom. They’d want to come in our guard shack if we’d let them. We weren’t supposed to, but often we did. We were well-armed and—I felt safe. Franklin: Kind of hard to turn down someone in need of a restroom. Braten: Some young woman about to have an accident. Franklin: Yeah. Braten: We had to use our common sense. And then I worked traffic for a while. Took training, breathalyzer training and radar training. Franklin: Was that traffic on the Hanford Site? Braten: Just on the Hanford Site. The management downtown would just have a cat fit if we stopped anybody outside the Project. They didn’t want us getting involved. We had to leave Hanford and go over to where there was a pump station, and there’d been some vandalism. So those working patrol would have to drive over there and look around. They were getting alarms downtown, and so we’d all rush out there. Turns out, it was an owl’s nest, and the mama owl would fly in and out and trip the detector system. So that was an example. Crawling around in the cactus and whatever, wondering what’s ahead was kind of tense. But it was just an owl. Franklin: You said you had to search people when they came in and out of areas. Did you ever find anything—oh sorry. Braten: We had a thing, you now, that would detect metal. And, well, sometimes people would mistakenly leave things in their cars. I opened a guy’s car once and there was about a metric ton of ammunition and stuff. Of course, you don’t enter Hanford with ammunition, guns, cameras and so on. And he said, oh, my dad’s a reloader and he borrowed my car. Well, he had to take—he or somebody had to take all that stuff down to the Federal Building. And he’d had to go down there later on to explain why and get it back. Another time, somebody had some guns, he’d been out shooting. One time, a guy had a flare pistol. A guy tried to leave once with his pickup truck full of sheet lead. I said, what are you doing? He said, well, I’ve got a pickup truck and it’s icy now and I wanted some weight to hold me down to get home safely. I’ll bring it back. I said, no, you can’t take all that lead out of here. Put it back. Stuff like that. Most—one guy had a missile. Turned out it was a model of, I think it was under Rockwell—a model that he’d taken off somebody else’s desk and was trying to sneak it home. That caused some excitement when we called in, there’s a guy with a missile here. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Braten: Once I hit a deer while on patrol and disabled a car, and I had to call that in. And I said, this is Braten working 2-4 and I hit a deer. And there’s a silence, then all kinds of excited communication: are you all right, where are you? And it was embarrassing. But anyway, somebody came and examined the scene. They later sold that car in their junk car sales they had at Hanford. That was broad daylight, and the deer just jumped up in front of me and ran across the road. Must’ve been unhappy and wanted to commit suicide. Anyway. There were times of a little excitement. Sometimes we had brush fires that were really dangerous. We had to control them and maintain security. People would park along our fence and take naps. And I’d see them; I’d have to wake them up and see what they were doing and send them on their happy way. That’s very—normally very humdrum. Franklin: Yeah. Had you heard about Hanford—so, you were not born—you’re not a native of Washington. Braten: No. Peoria, Illinois. Franklin: Peoria, Illinois. And when did you move to the state of Washington? Braten: Let’s see, it was in the early ‘60s. Franklin: Okay. Braten: I came out here to work as a missionary in Toppenish with the Native Americans and the migrants. Franklin: Okay. Braten: That’s how I got here. And I taught public school. Franklin: Had you heard about Hanford before you came out to this area? Braten: No. Franklin: No. Had you heard about the—I assume you would’ve heard about the Manhattan Project? Braten: Yes, yes. Franklin: When did you first become aware of Hanford? Braten: When I talked to that friend about a job that he had, an acquaintance had, that’s the first I’d heard of Hanford. And with my experience of being a juvenile parole counselor, et cetera, they might hire me. And I had—of course, I had a degree. So that’s the first I heard of it. I knew nothing about it. Franklin: When did you first learn as to what was being made at Hanford, and did it ever worry you to be working so close to atomic material? Braten: No. I learned what was going on when I hired on. And they gave us extensive training on contamination—surface contamination, airborne contamination. How could we get hurt, what we had to avoid. And if an area was marked, omit. Don’t pick up anything. If you see a big piece of rope or a mask or whatever, don’t pick it up. Notify the people who knew how to deal with potential radiation. So I knew nothing about it until I came. Franklin: What was one of the most challenging aspects of your work as a security guard—patrolman, sorry. Braten: Running. We had a captain who believed in running. I teased him and asked, Ralph, don’t you want anybody who’s going to stand and fight? He was an ex-marine from the Vietnam era. Anyway. Running was a challenge, a physical challenge. I could shoot. I was refused as a Navy chaplain because of my vision. But at Hanford, I shot expert, day and night, with the pistol, the rifle and the shotgun. That was no—that was fun. That was no challenge. But running was. Some of the training was a run, fall, shoot, run, fall, shoot. And I just couldn’t keep up to become a tactical response team member. I could, a regular patrolman. But that physical was the most challenging. And paying attention, not getting bored. Not getting lax. Not getting sleepy in the middle of the night. Franklin: Yeah, I imagine that would be very difficult, especially when you’re—what kind of shifts were you on? Were you on mostly nights, or did it vary a lot? Braten: Well, this was horrible. And totally unhealthy and everybody knows it except Hanford, apparently. We’d change shifts every week. And not in the same order as day and night. So we’d work a week in graveyard, and then a week in days or a week in swing, and year after year. It was really difficult. Oh, and we had a couple days off on what they call long change. That was hard to be rested. Franklin: I would imagine trying to switch from day to graveyard or vice versa with just a weekend to make that switch would be really trying on you. Braten: Well, occasionally—I don’t know what the other patrolmen did, but occasionally I’d show up on my day off. [LAUGHTER] And they’d either send me home or let me work. Franklin: That’s funny. What was one of the most rewarding aspects of your job as a patrolman? Braten: Well, occasionally, I’d—when I was out running around outside, I’d be able to help people who were stalled. The thought that I was doing something for our country. We were in the Cold War, back when our presidents negotiated, and we were making plutonium. And we and the Russians were playing chess. If you do this, we’ll do this. So don’t do this. And it worked. We didn’t have World War III. We had a lot of skullduggery and little brushes here and there, but we avoided World War III because we were well-armed. We had missiles in the air. We had weapons that would blow the smithereens out of wherever we dropped them. We had all kinds of missiles and submarines and in silos and in ships. I felt that I had a part in that, that I was protecting America. That was rewarding to me. Franklin: You eventually found a different—you quit being a patrolman. And how did that come about? Braten: They examined us physically every year and they gave us a psychology test. They didn’t want people running around with guns who had a loose wire in the nuke plant. Franklin: Makes sense. Braten: Yes. Well, at one of the tests, this doctor said he thought I had stress asthma, that if I was running around in an exciting time, I might have to stop and cough. I never experienced that, but they wanted me to stop being a patrolman. So they said, we’ll find you another job. Of course, they didn’t; I had to find a job. And I looked into quality control, which is about as popular as being a patrolman. You’re telling people they’re doing something wrong or have to stop sometimes because they have goals to benchmarks and stuff to achieve. And I enjoyed that. And that’s that packet of certificates I showed you. At first they trained me by follow-him. And then they got real busy and sent me to hundreds of classes, and one long one, about a year, about how to examine wells, if they were good. With the different kinds of wells. So I enjoyed that, being a quality control person. Franklin: Around what time did you become a quality control person, do you remember the era or—you know. Braten: Well, it was—let’s see, when did I leave? I left when I was 62. I was born in ’30, what does that make it? Franklin: ’92? Braten: Somewhere like that. Franklin: Early ‘90s? Braten: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay, so— [WOMAN OFF-SCREEN]: But you quit in ’93. So it was the late ‘80s. Braten: Oh, it had to be before that, if I left at ’93. Franklin: Yeah. Braten: Okay. Franklin: My bio here, it says—okay, so, you spent several years then as a QC. Braten: Right. Franklin: Which is what they call it. Braten: And I wanted to change because I thought I could make more money in communications. They sent papers around advertising the various openings. I went for an interview and the lady who interviewed me thought I was well-suited. I had a degree in English and speech and all this other stuff. And after we worked together a very short time, she decided she didn’t like me. It was—my feelings were the same. Anyway, she said I could apply for another job. We weren’t supply for another job for something like six months or a year, but she said I could start immediately looking for another job. And I finally retired. But then they called me back periodically to work as a QC again. But at my inflated wages. So that was great for me. Franklin: So you got the QC as the communications wages. Braten: Right. And of course, I was getting my pension, too, from having retired. So I worked various weeks when they wanted me and needed me in quality control. And I worked all the plants and places where they’re making models and experimenting. That was interesting, I learned a lot. Franklin: Did that work take you pretty much all throughout the Site? Braten: Yes. Franklin: At that time? Braten: Patrol did, also. Franklin: Right, so you have a pretty good knowledge, then, of the whole— Braten: Yes and no. I was in all the plants; I knew what went on. But if Russians tried to torture me to tell them how we made plutonium, I couldn’t tell them. Everything was still in that wartime need-to-know. You needed to know your job; you didn’t need to know the whole thing. And that was a mistake. I didn’t pay attention; I should have and learned all the other things. Because the security was lessening all the time and I could’ve done other things. They had jobs for locksmiths and laundry and—you know, everything. Map-making. So it was a pretty good place to work; you just had to mind your Ps and Qs. Franklin: Yeah. Can you describe a typical workday as a quality control officer? Braten: Well, I’d come roaring in from where I lived in Yakima or Sunnyside at the last tick of the clock usually. I would check in and see if there’s anything pending that I needed to go right away. Then I would go over to wherever we were working and suit up and go into the hot zones and look around. I’d be a pair of eyes and look for things to do, to look at. Every box where they made plutonium had gloves, lead-lined gloves. Each glove had a date on it and had to be changed out within a certain time. Well, sometimes, I would go into these areas and pull out the glove enough to where I could read the date and do the whole area and find gloves that were past their due date. They called these snapshots surveillances, and they could be solved either satisfactory, unsatisfactory corrected immediately, or unsatisfactory. And nobody liked the unsatisfactories. So I’d write up a surveillance and right away send copies to the people I should. Also, we had steel drums containing contaminated tools and other items. And these were—I had to inspect the drums when they came in to make sure the inner lining had a zinc coating. These, then, would be numbered, the lid and the drum. And when they had radiated material—radiation-contaminated, they would put a big bag in it and put the material in it. It wasn’t supposed to have liquids and some other things. And then they would seal it and then the outer rim had to be torqued and put pounds. And then a little pop-valve was torqued in inch pounds. I had to watch them while they did it, and the torque wrenches had to be calibrated within a certain time; I had to look at that. And sometimes tell these well-paid operators what they were supposed to do. As you tighten the ring, you’re supposed to hammer it with a mallet, and tighten it and hammer it. I said, now you hammer the ring. And he took the torque wrench and went, wham! I said, no! So we had to get another torque wrench while that one was recalibrated. So I did hundreds of those. And they took them out to a big pit and lined them up and then covered them with I don’t know how much dirt. They’re supposed to last hundreds of years. We also had attempts to create places where they could last even longer than that that were thwarted various ways. Anyway, so, I was busy inspecting drums, I was busy doing—if they called over and wanted somebody, they had a new job going in, and I had a little stamp with my number QC that I carried around. And I’d have to go in and watch them while they did this job. I’d look at the work order, what steps they were to do, and where I was supposed to verify it, and then I would. And then I’d stamp it and initial it and date it. So I did a lot of that. When the plastic shop made—they called it a greenhouse because it was made of plastic. It wasn’t green, but you could see through it. They would seal that to the front of a glovebox where they were making plutonium, unbolt it and open it up. And we were on supplied air, or tanks, and they would fix whatever needed fixing. Sometimes—one time, they had a broken front of the thing made of some kind of thick—it wasn’t Lucite, but of that sort. It had a couple of ports, a port down here, and where you could reach in and work. They came, I watched them while they drew up a plan of it. And I stamped that off. When they announced it was ready, I went in, they took off the front, had everybody sealed, you know. And they got the new one and they had turned the model over and the holes were all in wrong places. And this stuff costs a mild fortune. So they had to put the broken one back on, seal it all up, measure it and make sure, and then go make one right. That was an interesting time. They couldn’t blame me, thank God. Another time they did blame me. Somebody decided I should carry a Top Secret stamp and in the various steps in the making of these hockey pucks, plutonium, I had to watch while they made it. And when it first came in, I stamped the paper—the card that went with them, Top Secret—or Secret, not Top Secret. It was supposed to stay with that item. Well, the operators and managers had never had that to contend with, and they didn’t care. A whole bunch of those tags got lost. Well, anything marked Secret that gets lost, we have people from God in Heaven and whatever, in demanding to know what happened. So I had to go all over to wherever there was plutonium stored. When they made it, they put it in a double bag and then a tin can and you could feel the heat when you took hold of them. You couldn’t feel the radiation, but thermal. Well, I must’ve examined hundreds of them, exposing myself to find those. I found them everywhere in a little red wagon they used to haul them around, and on the floor, and on the wall. When they summed it up, they blamed quality control— Franklin: Of course. Braten: --for the security breach. Which I thought was a crock. Anyway, no one cared what I thought. I was a grunt. So that was quality control. We were a second pair of eyes, we were trying to help them do it right. We were sometimes unappreciated, but—oh, another time, they had some counterfeit bolts that were marked as though they were hardened enough to hold a great weight or twist or torque. But they were counterfeit; they were from China or somewhere. And they were mild steel and they would break. We found them on hoists, man-lifts, we found them everywhere. And for a long time, that was my job, going over and everywhere there was a hex head bolt, look at it. And you could tell the counterfeit by the counterfeit stamp, the way they arranged the markings. So we had sacks and sacks of them, and they said they were going to have us send them somewhere. Finally they said, junk them, we don’t want them. And we had a ton of those things. But we replaced every one of them with an accurate bolt. They apparently had gotten in the aviation industry and all over America. Franklin: Oh, wow. Braten: So we would test things. They had a container for shipping plutonium pellet—they call it a pellet or whatever. They’d drop it and see if it would break and so on. So we were doing, anytime they were testing anything, testing the elevators with weights, testing the hoists. We’d put on a hardhat, like that was going to help if anything broke. And watch them. So anything they did, quality control was there. They were very, very concerned about confined spaces, because people have died—one suck of breath and they die. You got to wear supplied air and have somebody watching you, or you can’t do it. So I’d have to go, and there was a supplied air job, standing up on the surface and watch. Also, they had boxes on all kinds of machines to turn it on and off, and they had a way to turn it off and then put a lockout device on it so somebody couldn’t come along while the guy was inside working and turn it on. They were lockouts. Well, they had a lot of education on it, and they had all of us QCs roaming, watching every place that was being worked with the lockout device on. And we made everybody keenly aware of that. We didn’t hardly find anything like that wrong, because they want to protect themselves. We went behind the scene for accidents. High voltage box blew up and melted copper and stuff blew all over everybody around it. They would send us films about the Valdez and every other—the place where the poisonous gas got loose in India. They’d examine every accident, why did it happen, how could it have been avoided, and they would show us those films to try to forewarn us of how it could be avoided. We had a person scalded because this area had been shut down and it was turned on. For some reason when they shot the steam in, it blew up and scalded a guy. They examined, very carefully, any accident, because they were very security-conscious. They didn’t want anybody hurt. Some of the Navy guys came in, nuke people. Of course they thought they were great stuff. I was dying to ask them, how many people a year get killed in the Navy by accidents? How many people at Hanford? None. So if you’re going to tell us how to do it, we’ll consider it. We didn’t have a choice, though. They were high muckety-mucks. You know, irritating things. We had fun with the PAC system. We could hit a number and talk in the phone and all over the area, we could say we need a QC at a certain point, and we’d all hear it. Sometimes people would mess with that, too. But anyway. Less I contaminate myself— Franklin: [LAUGHTER] What were the most challenging aspects of being a QC at Hanford? Braten: Doing it right. I didn’t have the eyes of eagles, and sometimes I had to look at a tag or something from, through a walled-off area and see it. So I thought of bringing a small monocular, binocular. I usually was able to do it. But I had a little trouble seeing some of the things. And I had to keep in mind what were the steps, what was I to do. And that was challenging to do it right, because I felt like, well, somebody told me that if a QC knowingly okays something and it’s not okay and somebody gets hurt, I could go to prison. Well, that made me highly motivated, even more than I’d been, to do the job right. Not because of punishment; because I wanted to. It was sometimes a challenge to interpret and to deal with some of the personnel. Most of them, we had fun with. I mean, not hilarious, but we treated each other like people. Occasionally, a patrolman would get badge-heavy and ruff, ruff, ruff. But most of us realized we were working with our friends and neighbors. We were going to do the job, but we weren’t going to jump down anybody’s throat. Franklin: What about the rewards? What was the most rewarding aspect of being a QC? Braten: I guess it was being part of a team that was doing something worthwhile. We had excellent rapport with our other patrolmen, mostly. Once in a while there’d be an oddball, but we were carefully screened and then have the written, and examination with the psychologist every year. If we screwed up, we heard about it. We could get time off, we could get fired. So I thought it was good to work there, with good people doing something worthwhile. There were irritating things. There were rattlesnakes out there and a few other hazards. But running into a deer when you’re driving 80 is really exciting. Or an owl with your windshield. You had to be careful, stay awake. Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about some major events that took place while you were working at Hanford. Braten: Okay. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could tell me how Chernobyl impacted Hanford and the community and your work there. Braten: Well, we were told—somebody told us, I don’t know TV or Hanford, that we should take iodine tablets. We were keenly aware that this stuff was circulating in the clouds, radiation. We kept close tabs on what was going on. We didn’t have to have much to do with it; we just had to deal with it. The most troublesome was the blowup of Mt. St. Helens. It dumped stuff that was the size of tiny, you could breathe it, to beach sand. We couldn’t stop with our duties and we couldn’t not drive. We had to put filters on our air filters, and we had to drive our cars in there through that. So I put filter material over my air intake and hoped I wouldn’t ruin my engine. We had to be careful driving in that poor visibility. On places it was ruining the paint on our cars and whatever. But we had to come. That was keen—we had to come. Whether it was a holiday or a graduation or whatever, we had to be there. So, it made us, whatever, committed, you might say. Maybe with a little grumbling, but committed. Franklin: How did your job change at the end of the Cold War, when Hanford shifted from production to cleanup? Braten: Well, I had changed jobs, of course. But there was an air of freedom and relief. Because we knew we’d be a target if there was war, or even without war, for espionage. Anyway, I think we went into a cleanup mode. They had tumbleweeds out there, lots and lots of tumbleweeds. But they were contaminated. What they were going to do was collect them and burn them. Well, they couldn’t burn them, because it would put radiation in the air. Then they brought in bales—like farm machines, to bale them. So what they did was, there’s a lot of sand out there, they built walls along the roads with these baled tumbleweeds to keep the drifting sand from drifting over the road and needing to be cleaned up. We dealt with the radiation and the potentials, and tried to lead normal lives. We found out the drinking water in our headquarters in 2-West was possibly contaminated. So, they had that changed with bottled water. And I didn’t know what they did then. There were interesting quirks. We had a big company picnic every year. That was fun. We’d get together and put races and picnic. And occasionally the management would call us all to a big meeting, and they would bring in buses and send us all somewhere downtown. And management would tell us what they wanted to tell us. The theory was they were helping us be onboard and take ownership—that was a big word. They were telling us what was going to happen. We really didn’t have any say-so in it, except yes or— Franklin: Right. Braten: But I liked working there. Occasionally I had problems, but I perhaps shouldn’t discuss them. Franklin: You can if you want to. Braten: Just—some of the—sometimes somebody in management would fuss at us without cause, just because they could, I guess. We, in patrol, were told that we were paramilitary, and saying pseudo-military just to have fun. But we had excellent weapons and excellent training. And we took pride. Some people would call us rent-a-cops. People who didn’t want to obey simple rules. You’re going to work there, you’re going to be searched. You’re going to have to obey security. And I felt like saying, you know, you should go to work for McDonald’s. They don’t have to put up with this stuff. But they’re getting super pay and they begrudge every day, every time they came in or left. At Christmastime, people would bring in, for gift exchange, wrapped gifts. As they came in, they had to unwrap it and show us what’s in there. You want to feel like a Grinch. Franklin: Should’ve just brought the gift and some wrapping paper. Braten: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. That’s funny, though. I could see how that would be tough to do gift exchange in a secure area. Braten: Right. Franklin: Yeah. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Braten: Well, of course, as a patrolman, that was part of our job, to see that the rules were obeyed. The badges we had that told all the stuff, we weren’t supposed to wear them out in public or be photographed. It was Hanford. It was secret. I had no trouble—I didn’t want to blab about anything. We had somebody in management in security that blabbed. Somebody came in and said, hey, my sister down in California says you got Uzis now. We didn’t tell anybody. Oh, another thing, the security around the plutonium plant, we didn’t tell our wives what was going on. But one of them gave a newspaper report and even brought reporters through. And I thought, what?! Anyway. It wasn’t for me to question. I just wondered in my mind that it wouldn’t be the way I’d run a war. Franklin: Different standards, I guess, for different levels of management. Braten: Oh, yes, most of the management was really good. Just once in a while, somebody’d be a cross patch. We weren’t always angels, either. Franklin: I’m sure. Well, you could talk about it now, because what are they going to do, I mean, fire you? You know? Braten: Burn something on my lawn or whatever. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I don’t think they’d do that. I think they have bigger problems to worry about right now. Braten: Well, it was handy, though, when we were going to Europe, my wife and I, for a vacation, I could call Hanford at a certain number and tell them where we were going. And they could say, okay, and they would say, well, when you’re in this country, beware of this, this, this. So they gave us a heads up about potential dangers. Franklin: Mm. Kind of like the State Department publishes those periodic reviews— Braten: Oh, do they? Franklin: Yeah, of different activities, like, meant for tourism. Like, if you’re going to this country, beware of x, y, z. Braten: Gee, I didn’t know. Franklin: Oh, yeah. It’s on their website. Braten: We just went for a big trip a couple years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay. Braten: Anyway. Franklin: My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Braten: Well, mostly you hear complaints about radiation release. People who moved in down wind and felt they were contaminated. My feeling is they should’ve known we were not making popsicles. But anyway, I guess I’d like them to know that we filled a niche in history where we helped prevent World War III. And that we furthered research in nuke medicine and a whole bunch of good things evolved from Hanford. So, I’d like them to know the good things as well as the contamination. We have to deal with the waste and we have to deal with radioactive materials and for a long time, it has to be secure. So I’d like to know some of the good that we did. Franklin: Great. Well, Walt, is there anything else that you’d like to add before we wrap up? Braten: I guess not. I liked the jobs. I was grateful for the jobs, I was grateful for the pay. They gave us lunches when we had to lunch over—forced overtime. They gave us uniforms, did the laundry, you know, a lot of nice things. And a lot of training. I appreciate that, and I think we did a job that America needed to have done. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you, Walt, I really appreciate your taking the time to interview with us. Braten: Well, you’re welcome. Thank you for being interested. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, very much so. <a href="https://youtu.be/5MKr2OtELwU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1978- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1978-1993 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Braten Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Nuclear waste disposal Description An account of the resource Walt Braten moved to Richland, Washington to work on the Hanford Site as a Patrolman. Walt worked on the site from 1978-1993. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/18/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F40dfecfcfb14b42ffd68426733942f40.jpg ed6e594965bb469d8310a1facdddd049 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Brunson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right. We are ready. Dennis Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Dennis Brunson on October 18, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Dennis about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Brunson: My name is Dennis, D-E-N-N-I-S, Brunson, B-R-U-N-S-O-N. Franklin: Great. Okay, so the best place to begin is the beginning. So when and where were you born? Brunson: I was born in LaGrande, Oregon. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: In 1943. Franklin: And how did you come to Washington? Brunson: My family moved my junior—beginning of my junior year of high school to LaCrosse, which is up towards Pullman. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: My dad was a foreman on a cattle ranch. Franklin: Hmm. Brunson: That’s where I— Franklin: Was your dad in the cattle business for most of his— Brunson: Yeah, he was a farmer and we owned a meat market in eastern Oregon. That’s how I got up here. Franklin: Okay. And then you went to high school in LaGrande? Brunson: No, in LaCrosse. Franklin: In LaCrosse, sorry. Brunson: I married my high school sweetheart, who was a year ahead of me. I was a football player, and I had some success at playing football, and had been given an offer to play football at Columbia Basin College in Pasco, back in the day when they had an outstanding football program. On my way to that end, I damaged my neck severely in a football game—my last football game in high school, and I could no longer play football. But I was already—had plans to go to CBC, and I followed through. So I came to CBC, and I took a class there that was a special class that Boeing had initiated, basically, to produce illustrators for Boeing Company in Seattle. They didn’t have near enough technical illustrators. So I went through that program and found that there was a pretty high need for illustrators, and they used them here at Hanford as well. So my wife worked for General Electric, and her boss at the time and my future boss played golf together. We had planned on going to Seattle to start my career over there, and ultimately, I was hired to come to work at Hanford as an illustrator for Vitro Engineering Company. Franklin: Okay. And so what kind of projects did you work on while in this first job at Hanford? Brunson: Okay. I did a lot of—because I was an illustrator and artist, I was put in the piping department, which was a large section, because they were retooling the Hanford site at that time to process chemicals. My first job, basically, was as-built drawings. I would go into zones where the pipefitters had recreated the new version, and I would go in and follow blueprints to make sure that what went on the final drawings was the way it was built. And oftentimes, there were things that the designers couldn’t see. So they would get someone like me to go in and sit and draw all these things out, and double-check and make sure that it was as-built. That wasn’t always an easy task, because some of the zones we were in were very hot. And we would have to draw with coveralls on, and head gear, and gloves. It was a slow process. Franklin: How would—so obviously, all that gear can be cleaned, but what you’re drawing on, then might also soak up radiation as well? Or--? Brunson: Well, there was a possibility that you could be contaminated, and they were very careful, which I was thankful for. I always had a radiation monitor with me. If something in the atmosphere was airborne, he knew about it, because he had an indicator. We would get out of there. That happened a few times, but it wasn’t all that bad. Franklin: What kinds of—did you work all over site doing these as-builts, or is there any building or buildings that come to mind? Brunson: Well, in the 200 Area mostly is where I did that. In the T, U, and B Buildings, I think they were, at that time, they were retooling the Canyon buildings, or some of the cells for processing thorium. That’s what, basically, what we were doing. When I wasn’t doing as-built drawings, I worked as an illustrator and a design draftsman. I was trained well to do that, and I really enjoyed it. Franklin: When did you start this first—when did you start at Hanford? Do you remember what year? Brunson: Yeah, it was 1964. Franklin: 1964. And how long did you work as an illustrator and doing the as-builts? Brunson: For that—during that phase of my career, it was two years. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: I worked there two years, and then I went back to my wife’s family farm, and we leased one of my father-in-law’s ranches and tried to make a living raising wheat and sheep and cattle and all of that. Franklin: What was the reason for that change? Or, why—why did you— Brunson: Why’d I leave Hanford and go back to the farm? Franklin: Yeah, why-- Brunson: Well, it was an offer that I couldn’t refuse. My father-in-law was having health issues, and he came to me and said, hey, I need some help. So we did what we had to do. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: And we tried to make a living, but—you know, I was glad that I had a connection at Hanford. Because in 1970, we came back and moved to Richland and started with WADCO Corporation as a technical illustrator. Franklin: WADCO. And what does—do you remember what WADCO stands for? Brunson: Well, it depends on who you were talking to. It was Westinghouse Advanced Development Corporation, but the locals here called Wild Ass Development Corporation. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Brunson: Because they had a way of getting things done. Franklin: Ah. Brunson: My reason for being there—I was hired as an illustrator, because they had taken over the FFTF design and management. It had been in thought process for several years prior to that. They took over, and there were services that were provided to the contractors here. But they had a difficult time—Westinghouse, or WADCO had a difficult time getting what they needed in the timeframes that they were being asked to deliver. So they had to go out and get some service people of their own to keep that flowing. That’s how I came in. I was the first illustrator they had. Franklin: First illustrator. And I noticed a lot of the material you brought in today—which we’ll show some of that later—I noticed a lot of that pertains to FFTF. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: So it seems you were married to that—that was a large part of your illustrator, or graphic design work, was for that reactor. Brunson: Yeah. When I started with the WADCO, and when I—that melded right into Westinghouse—it was the same parent company; they just changed the structure. I went from there until Boeing took over. That was 17 years. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So I did that for 17 years. That’s the reason I have—my very first job at WADCO was another gentleman and I were asked to go down to Safeway and buy a 50-pound sack of flour. We went out to the desert, and there was a post out there where the center of the reactor core was. This was before they scraped anything away. We made a big giant X in the sand, and made it nice and tidy so that from an aerial photograph, it appeared to be a giant X. X marks the spot, for this—that was prior to the—for the first excavation. So that was the first thing that we did—I mean, that was noteworthy. The next day or two after they had photographically recorded that, they came in with the earth moving equipment to start the lay-down of the bottom of the reactor. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: And so that’s something that I did [LAUGHTER] that was unusual. Franklin: So you were there right at the genesis— Brunson: In the beginning. Franklin: Yeah. Literally at the center of the— Brunson: Center of the project. Franklin: Center of the reactor. So what other kinds of work did you do in that 17-year span for WADCO? Brunson: Well, I started out as an illustrator, and we worked night and day, seven days a week. Forever and ever and ever it went on. It was a wild ride. But we produced visual aids, slides and viewgraphs, and posters for poster sessions. And a lot of them. In addition to that, we also created an ongoing report of activities because we were building something new that had never been done. So we had, in addition to the graphics department, we had photographers and editorial staff, and the typing pool, and all of the support that is required to put out reports—technical reports. It was a large group. We were asked to create a history as we went along. That was—we were part of a national lab, and it was—that was something you had to do. It’s in record form somewhere, if our computers can read it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I believe a lot of that material is actually in hard copy in our collections. Brunson: Yeah. It is, yeah. Franklin: I’ve gone through a lot of FFTF boxes. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So you were the first person in this department, then. So how big did this department end up becoming? And did you take a supervisory role? Brunson: Yes. At one time, we had around 25 people in that particular graphics department. I started out as an illustrator, and then was promoted to senior illustrator, and then supervisor, or art director. And then in a short while, I was promoted to manager of media services, which included the graphics department and photography and audio-visual, which was one tight group. As time went on, over a few years, I was assigned other management in the communications department. And that’s what I did. Then when we—after 17 years, when Boeing came to town, things—when we went into Boeing, I worked—managed several departments. The photography, audio-visual, motion picture group. So anyway, I’m getting off track. Franklin: No, not at all. Brunson: That’s kind of the trail that I had through the process. The entire time that we were working there, I’ve seen other groups that they provided a service, but were never considered, or they never felt like they were part of a team. That was the one nice thing about that graphics and photography departments—you were part of a team. We were involved with just about everything that went through the company. We were appreciated by the management, because they’d have been in trouble without a good group of people who were cooperative and willing to work every night, and into the wee hours of the morning, and still come back the next day and smile about it. And it was fun. You have to remember that people like in those kind of service departments, by and large, they’re people that are getting paid good money to do their hobby. Franklin: Right, right. Brunson: So the photographers loved it. They loved the challenge of going into a hot zone and taking pictures. It was something they looked forward to. It was something they could learn from, and create new techniques to do a good job. So that’s a pretty good base for contented employees, if you can have that. We were fortunate that most of us were about the same age, and we had fun, we had potlucks, we did all the things, we were rewarded for our efforts by the company, by the management. So it was a feel-good—we felt good that we provided service. I brought here 40 years of samples of work that we did that is proof. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And it’s something that the people who were in those type jobs can take this to a potential new job, say, this is what I do, here it is. And it’s something that you can look at and see. Most all of us retired or are retiring from that line of service—everybody’s gotten older, of course. And now everybody runs the computer. That’s the way it—that’s how it worked for us. Franklin: Right. Yeah, a lot of your material—a lot of those materials are in the Hanford Collection. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: And are identified as being very historically valuable. So I think that’s a testament to you—to the work of your group. Brunson: Yeah. Well, the models—you have so many fantastic models in your collection. And I don’t know that you have more than what I saw in the walk-through the other day at the open house. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: I suspect that you have more of them somewhere, because there was a lot of them that we produced. Franklin: Well, what’s in the collection right now is everything that’s been identified to be put in the collection. If there’s models somewhere else, they just aren’t part of our collection, so the DOE hasn’t put them in the collection. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: I hope there are, too, because they’re very—they have their own preservation challenges, but they’re very engaging. Brunson: Yup. Franklin: People really like the models. So you worked for Westinghouse for 17 years. Brunson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So that would have been from ’70 to ’87. And then saying ’87 is also significant, because that’s our kind of shutdown of production year. Brunson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So who did you work for, or—describe that transition to your new— Brunson: From Westinghouse to Boeing? Franklin: Yeah. Brunson: That was—in my eyes, I was very, very disappointed that we went to work for Boeing. We were given away to Boeing as part of the contract. Boeing was given all of the services: photography, video, graphics, printing, publication services—those were all part of the deal. Westinghouse gave—Westinghouse and Boeing partnered. The Westinghouse part of it, they took a bunch of labs from Battelle—or gave some to Battelle—I’m sorry. Battelle had a wonderful photography department and graphics department. They, along with the Westinghouse services, were all given to Boeing. Boeing—it was Boeing Computer Services—and the manager there wasn’t all that familiar with what we provided for the site, and wasn’t all that interested in finding out. He didn’t last very long, but the new management came in and they provided—they were good. They were a good company to work for at that time. But they—because of that, people like myself—I went there as a manager of the graphics department, and was quickly asked to go work and put out a big fire at the publications, printing and reproductions services group, which was a large group. So I was there for a year, managing that group. When the manager of photography and video, which was 65 people—professionals there, he decided to retire early, so I was asked then to go take care of that group, which was a challenge. I really liked it. It was a real good challenge. We had several large groups throughout—down this part of Hanford. We were asked, basically, to reduce that by half, as far as the square footage and all that. So we did a lot of consolidating and all that. And at the same time that that was going on, we were sort of downsizing. It’s when the digital world suddenly was upon us, and we were challenged. We had one of the nicest color labs, in the Federal Building, that was in the Northwest. It was fabulous. And we had the large black-and-white lab in the 300 Area. Franklin: Sorry, can you just describe what a color lab and a black—you mean for reproduction or for photographs? Brunson: For photographs. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: It was quite complex. And what I guess—I can give you an oversight of that, but it would really be great if you can get someone—Dan Ostergaard or someone like that—to sit in this chair and give you a real version of the macrographs and things that they did, as it relates to fuel—the nuclear fuel production. It was a whole new world, and it was an unusual world that they lived in. But by and large, we had photographers—and this was a collection of probably ten really high quality, well-educated technical photographers that provided service for the site. That included hot cells. We had permanent staff in the 200 Area that provided really hard work, as far as recording things in cells where they were doing testing and what-have-you. We had a couple guys that flew aerials every week. They would fly and take pictures of the development of our—whatever was happening on the site. We had—the black-and-white lab was in 300 Area, and they produced all of the negatives, they processed, they did a lot of the printing. They did color printing as well in the small scale. But in the Federal Building, we had a full-blown color printing process that went on there. You could do photographs that were six feet wide and 40 feet long. We had that ability. That work was done mostly for public relations type activities. I mean, that was—they did a lot of macrographs, and that’s—you take a fuel pin, or a piece of fuel—carbon—put it under a million-volt electron microscope, and enlarge that pin up to like four feet wide, and it’d be done in sections. We had folks in the lab that would cut all these things apart and put them back together. It’s kind of hard to describe unless you have a picture of it. But they ended up being this big macrograph that they would then re-photograph and reduce down, and that was—they used that for the research on what happens to nuclear fuels when it’s irradiated. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: So it was a technical process. Photography and graphics both were the last people in the line when something had to be—a report had to go in, or somebody was getting on an airplane to go to D.C. or Virginia, or Europe or someplace for a critical meeting. They’d change and change and change right up to the last minute, and then dump it on us. And our challenge was to produce something that met their needs in the remaining wee hours of the morning. Franklin: Mm-hmm. You mentioned it earlier, so I’d like to go back to it—can you describe—because the digital revolution, right, affected us all in terms of our computer use, but I imagine especially it would have affected the photography and graphic arts departments. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: So I’d like you to kind of talk about those—that change. That whole transformation of that technology. Brunson: That was a process that we all went through, depending on what seat we were sitting at the time. I’ll start with graphics. In the graphics department, we had assigned a young lady the job of gathering the data for our first computer systems. She was looking at things on the PC side and on the Apple side. At that time, the Macintosh had software that was user friendly. We all—we went that way with the Apple—Mac. Franklin: In many cases, they’re still often the— Brunson: Understand. Franklin: --computers of choice for graphics and audio-video. Brunson: Certainly. But what we ran up against, especially with Boeing—Boeing saying, no way, we’re not going to go with anything Apple. You can kiss your Apples goodbye, because we’re not going to go that route. But they didn’t have the software development on the PC side that met our needs. So we’d keep putting them off and putting them off. I know some of their departments now are all back on that side of the fence. But that went on in the graphics side, but on the photography side, it was a real struggle, because our photographers came from the old school—film—and fortunately we had a few guys who were advocates for the digital end and helped us stumble through that. It was a rough journey. But it changed everything we did. We—a group of 75 people—there are now zero photographers at Hanford that we know of—that I know of. They’ve all went by the way of—they’re extinct. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And the technology now is—you might not get the same—always the same quality— Brunson: No. Franklin: --but now that everyone has a camera for most purposes that you can document a lot of the history out there. Yeah. So how did—so on the graphics side are you talking mostly about CAD software? Or is that—what kinds of software did you— Brunson: Well, we used— Franklin: Did you use for the graphics software? Brunson: We used FreeHand and Photoshop and those types of Illustrator-type softwares. [SIGH] I’m drawing a blank here. You can cut this out, I guess. Can we stop just a sec? Franklin: Yeah, sure, of course. Brunson: Okay. Get my head on straight. Franklin: Yeah, no worries. Brunson: Where I was going. Ask me the question again. Franklin: I was just—what kinds of software did you primarily use in the— Brunson: Oh, okay. In the graphics side. Franklin: In the graphics process, yeah. Brunson: It was, on the Mac side, it was FreeHand, was our base—when I was heavily involved with it, that was the base. On the PC side, we used Corel Draw, and we used Illustrator and those were kind of the basic ones that I was familiar with. Franklin: When did you feel—because computer power has almost exponentially increased since the invention of the microchip. So when did you finally feel, from a professional standpoint, that these computer technologies were on par or had surpassed a lot of what had been done, then, by analog technologies? Or did you ever feel that it was that way? Brunson: Yeah. When I was at the end of my career—I left there in 2008—by about that time, we were overcome by good technology. Before that, some of the new guys that came in who were really well-trained, it was—they made computers do things that you wonder, how in the world did they do that? You were kind of glad you were getting old. [LAUGHTER] I’ll give you just a brief—at one point when I was with Lockheed, I was asked to go to work on a proposal in the Washington, DC area for the FBI. We were there most of the summer, about 35 days, 40 days, I guess. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: I had familiarity with—a lot of experience with FreeHand. So the last thing I was told before I left was, oh, by the way, they don’t use Macs. They use Corel Draw on PC. I looked at him and I said, I’ve never done any Corel work. Well, you better get started! So I’m getting on, packing my suitcase to go put my life on the line in Virginia or Maryland. So I had a real learning curve, the first week there. And I made it. I got so that I really liked the program. But it was—everything’s about the same, except it’s a little different. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, you might—the basics are probably pretty easily transferrable, but there’s the details and special features. Brunson: Yup, that’s exactly it. Franklin: So how long did you work for Boeing, and when did Boeing transition? It went from Boeing to Lockheed? Brunson: Boeing to Lockheed. Franklin: And when did that— Brunson: I think that was nine years later—I think I worked for Boeing for nine years before Lockheed came to town. I think. [LAUGHTER] I have it written down somewhere. Franklin: Right, no, that’s understandable. And you worked there until May 2008? Brunson: 2008. Franklin: Can you talk about the—so you worked for Westinghouse—Westinghouse Hanford, Boeing, Lockheed Martin—can you talk about the—I mean you talked a little bit about the attitude between the change in contractors, but was that a—was there kind of like a culture change as well? Brunson: Oh. Franklin: And did your group have to kind of readjust, or were you sheltered from the larger storm of contractors, contractor change? Brunson: Well, we—in a group like—in some groups it was no problem at all, no hassle, nothing to worry about. In our groups, we worked at a level in the company where we were part of—we were part of all the stuff. So when we lost our mothership so to speak, there were hurt feelings and there was a lot of unknown canyons to go down, as far as—we worried about it. We worried about it, that these changes breaking us up and tearing us apart, and it always seemed to do that to some extent. The Lockheed was different than the others—Lockheed Martin—because they were still tied to Lockheed Corporate. There was a Hanford and a Corporate. And half the stuff that we did, we were working for Lockheed Martin Corporate, but we were here. It was—there were a lot more challenges for our organization, and it was more contractor-supported than it was Hanford-supported. I was kind of the Hanford guy. Franklin: Right. Brunson: For years. I was an art director, where most of the old Hanford numbers—everything would come to me, and we would then, you know, get it done, and get it filed correctly and all of that. But there were times, like when I went to work for on this FBI proposal, that that was purely Lockheed Martin. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So that gave people like me a chance to learn other things and do other things, and it made a better person out of all of us, because we got to do things that—we were tied to the Hanford fence previously. So I don’t know if that answers your question or not. Franklin: Yeah, I think that answers it really well. Brunson: But you have to remember, whenever a contractor came in to take over, there was a proposal. You know, the Department of Energy or AEC or whoever we were at the time, they said, hey, you guys have been doing this work for x number of years. We want to see whether we can get it done cheaper. So every time that happened, every time somebody else took over the contract, there’s things that were lost that we were used to. Whether that was good or bad—most of the time you thought it was bad, because that’s not the way it’s always been done. Just fear of change. There was a lot of downsizing that went on. So groups that had had 65, 68 people in them, suddenly they were down to 20. That meant people went somewhere else to work. So there were layoffs. Franklin: Right, because as you mentioned, a lot of the point of this bidding and contracts was to get the work done at the lowest price. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So there’s an incentive there to cut costs when and where you could. Brunson: Yeah. When we transferred—I’d been at Westinghouse 17 years, and I provided quite a bit of work for the proposal. My manager, who was [UNKNOWN], she was the manager of technical communications at the time—she went back to Pittsburgh and worked for almost six months as part of that team. I took her job during that timeframe. We were so excited that we won—we won the bid—and come back and find that—sorry, guys, you’re not going to be Westinghouse anymore; you’re going to Boeing. That was very disheartening to those of us who had been branded with the Circle-W on our butt. We were disappointed and feelings were hurt. Franklin: Right, right. Brunson: It caused all kinds of trauma for a lot of people for a short time. Franklin: Speaking of branding, for work done on the—did each contractor have its own kind of corporate branding that it used on all its own publications, used at Hanford? Did you have to learn a whole new set of corporate graphic identity each time? Brunson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Oftentimes—and there were also—Department of Energy had their own branding, if you will. So there was always a little muddy water about the use of logos and the use of the fonts that were used, the different kinds of fonts, and the colors, and all of that. It was an interesting journey. I’ll put it that way. Franklin: Brand identities, almost sacred. Brunson: Well, it was. Westinghouse, Boeing, and Lockheed Martin all had extreme control on their—they had someone at headquarters that had an eye on everything we did, because we were always getting our hand slapped. You can’t do that. Franklin: Well, let me tell you, it’s the same here. Brunson: Yup. Well, that’s-- Franklin: Everyone’s interested in preserving their brand identity. Was the majority of your work—or I guess maybe can you describe the balance of your work—was it public, for public consumption, or private consumption, or a mixture of both, the work that you did at Hanford? Brunson: It depends on at what phase of my career. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: There were times in the early part of the career that everything that I touched went into a report or a presentation for the site. Franklin: Okay. So for internal consumption? Brunson: Internal. As time went on, some of that—at that time, most of it was, you know, you had to have a Q clearance to be there to begin with. Most everything was pretty private because, on FFTF, that was a new technology and we didn’t do an awful lot of sharing with the public. But then, as time went on and you started doing other things in the career path, you got to do things that were more fun. Public presentations and work for the science centers and things like that, and displays and what-have-you. Franklin: Did your group do work for the Hanford Science Center? Brunson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. How involved were you with the Hanford Science Center? Brunson: As required. We had projects that we would work through. There were several contractors that provided the same service. FFTF, we did a lot of models, as you already know, for FFTF because it was all new. It was new technology, it was a new thought process, and it was new. We had a lot of visitors from throughout the world. We developed the Science Center in the 400 Area out at FFTF that ultimately became the CREHST museum. They moved that building down, downtown. Franklin: Was that the same building that Allied Arts is in—that’s the former CREHST, right? Brunson: No, that’s—CREHST is just a couple notches down. Franklin: Sorry, I’m pretty new to the area. I moved here after CREHST had closed down. So the CREHST building, though, is a former site building? Brunson: It was built on at the 400 Area on a little ridge overlooking the reactor. Franklin: Oh. Brunson: It was put up in a hurry, and we built beautiful displays in there. You could go off—you could drive out there without a badge, and you could go in and go through the Science Center, the Visitors Center, we called it. FFTF Visitors Center. And it told the entire story; we had visual presentation, we had like six projectors that showed these—you could sit through a 30-minute 35-millimeter slide presentation with sound and all that. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: So that was—and that’s where most of those models were ultimately ended up. Some of them were actually in the reactor building itself, where visitors would come in and you could use—you couldn’t go in there because it was hot, but you could look at this model and they could point out various activities that were going on. Franklin: Did you do any work at all at the CREHST museum? Brunson: Personally, I did not, but our staff did. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Mike Reisenauer did a lot of work for the museum down there. He built a lot of displays at Lockheed Martin. Franklin: Right, because I know that some of the items in our collection from that CREHST Museum were donated by Lockheed Martin. So that’s why I thought there might have been a— Brunson: There were a lot of the things that were in the basement there, which you never got to see, but there was a lot of material that we had created for other displays in the Lockheed Martin Center. We had a building out at the Richland Airport that was—we had a complete model shop in there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: And that’s where a lot of that stuff was manufactured. Parts—I wasn’t—I never did work in there, but we were—we managed that. It was what it was. Franklin: Right. Brunson: It was as required, we did it. Franklin: Right, right. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to mention? Brunson: Well, one of the things that I thought about in coming out here was that in the beginning, prior, you know, in the 50s—the 40s and the 50s, there were very few illustrators. There were very few technical illustrators who knew what to do. There were a few, but on the Hanford site, that often was—that type of work was performed by sign painters. That was a whole new world. It was—a lot of the big visuals back in those days were done by the sign shops. There were a number of sign painters at Hanford. I never did find out how many there were, but each area had two or three or maybe about as many as five sign painters. Franklin: Yeah, we have a lot of signs in our collection. A lot of hand-painted signs. Brunson: Yeah, but a lot of them—I mean 99% of them—weren’t painted on a board or on a piece of metal. They were painted on a tank or a wall or a series of pipes. They became pretty crafty. Sometimes there was a little head-butting that went on between the crafts, you know—you guys can’t do that. Well, yeah, we can. Look, we did it. Well, you’re not supposed to. Well, no, you’re not supposed to. So there was some near-issues with union—or labor and non-labor activities. But the early sign painters were really good artists. The ones that we formatted—or that we faced with, they were really good artists. They were hardly ever recognized as such. Franklin: When did that profession—when did the sign painters start to kind of fade away on the Hanford site? Brunson: Well, they still have them, but now they all have the digital—everything’s digital, and vinyl cutting. I mean, it’s kind of like a graphics shop now. Franklin: Well, I imagine that would’ve been folded kind of into graphic design. Brunson: Yeah, but it never—to my knowledge, it’s never ever—you know, there’s these guys, the ones with x’s on their stomachs and those that have zeros on their stomachs. To my knowledge, they’re still a separate entity. Franklin: Interesting. What kinds of tools did you use as an illustrator when you were doing these drawings and things? What kind of—did you have access to a pretty wide array of tools, or what? Brunson: Well, yes, we did, for the time. At the time, we did. In the early days, we had typesetting machines that had—it was the black-and-white film and we had fonts that were big, and you’d spin it around—if you were spelling something out, you’d spin it around, and then you’d expose it, and it would be exposed to a tape that was going through a photo bath which was all self-contained. It would come out the other side in these long strips—you might have 50 feet of it. There was always problems with the process, too. But we would dry that—or it would come out and it would dry. Then we’d put it through a machine that was a waxer. It would wax the backs of it. Then we’d put it on our drying boards—big Hamilton drying boards, with a long straightedge on it, and we’d cut out all these letters. Then we’d lay them up on the board a line at a time, and clean them up, and then send it to photography to have a photomechanical transfer, which was a black-and-white print. So, a-ha, here it is. Or you could get that same—like the film that I have over here, that is a clear photo—it’s a positive, film positive. And then you can either lay that over another graphics that was airbrushed, or you can paint the back of it, and that was the one that we found on the shelf back on our tour through there of the interim K storage—an illustration. That was an evolution. We went from doing airbrush drawings that was very, very time-consuming. I brought my airbrush and some of the tools. And it was kind of a one-time deal. Back then, to be an illustrator, an artist, you had to be an illustrator and an artist. You couldn’t fake it. You had to know what you were doing. So if you made a boo-boo, you were in trouble. And if somebody who was a good illustrator, but they were clumsy and sloppy, they didn’t last very long, because you couldn’t afford to have him redo it and redo it, you know? So that took a lot of pretty good artists out of the picture, because they couldn’t do what was required of them. Franklin: Right. Well, this sounds like it would be a great time to take a quick break and set up to view some of the materials that you brought. Brunson: Sure. Franklin: To kind of illustrate—literally—your work. Brunson: Okay. Franklin: So we’ll just, we’ll shut it off and then we’ll— [VIDEO CUTS] Brunson: Well, I’ll give it a shot. I’ve done this a few times over the years for schools and what-have-you where I have the thing in my—I have a big studio, I have it all laid out. It’s kind of awkward this way. But basically, an illustration is done—or was done at that time—our client, an engineer, would contact us and come in with the stack of drawings where they needed an illustration done, and what they kind of wanted as the end product. And what we would do is assign it to an illustrator, and he would start by doing a rough pencil sketch after looking at the blueprints to say, is this kind of what you want? Yes, that’s what—he’d come back, and after an initial rough, and then he would start ploughing through all the data. Basically, its drawings were to scale and oftentimes a cutaway to show how it worked. But it had to be accurate, and it had to be the right scale, which was kind of a unique part of the job that we did. The way we would ordinarily lay it out would be we would use all the tools we had in our tool chest to lay it out and to draw it. We would use mechanical pencils. This is a pencil sharpener. We would lay out the drawing, we would ink it then, with—once it had been approved, we would transfer it to product that was—or paper or vellum that was of high quality, or even Mylar. And then we would ink it with fine pens that would—haven’t used these for several years. [LAUGHTER] But they were varying size ink pens. Very accurate and very easy to work with. These have been around for a long time. I’ve owned this set since the early ‘60s. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: But when the illustration was laid out and done, and the engineer took a look at it, we would ask him to tell us what he wanted on a copy—a blueprint copy, to put the words on it that he wanted on it, the title. And in the beginning, the titles were normally put on with a paintbrush. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: And oftentimes red tempera paint, like we used to use in grade school, you know. It worked easy and it went down well and it looked nice. Any really fine illustrations—I should say the fonts and the wording, oftentimes if it was really important, we would use this setup, which is a template that has an indentation, and we would put one of these type of pens into a little bug. This is called the bug. And it would line up in the track. We would follow this—it’s difficult to show on here, but the line would—you would follow the lettering—I don’t know, is this going to show or not? But it would—you’d be producing a—it would be—you’d lay it on—let’s— Camera man: Can you move it around? Franklin: Maybe we can—can you flip this part of it? Can you put this over there? Brunson: Do what now? Franklin: Hold it like that. But like—maybe hold it like that so they can— Brunson: Well, yeah, that’d be wrong, but that’d be putting it down below. It’s difficult. Ultimately, what it amounts to is that you’d have a—it would be laying down on a surface, and—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, sorry, we’re not really set up for the visual displays. Brunson: But anyway, this— Camera man: If you don’t mind, maybe I’ll just get closer. Maybe that will work. Emma Jo Rice: Okay, perfect. Maybe flip it and tell him to use that? Or what do you think? Camera man: Let’s try just to get closer to it. Rice: Okay. Camera man: So I have to—just a second here. Yeah. Move that out of the way. Okay. Brunson: That do it? Well, this, basically is a stylus that follows the shape of the letter, and above up here, a pen would be laying down the letters one by one. You’d move this around until you developed a sentence or a word, a callout. So this was—it looks awkward, and it looks like it’s time-consuming, but it isn’t. In reality, it goes real quickly. And there’s—sometimes there’s boo-boos, if you aren’t watching yourself, you’ll misspell something. It’s easily done. But that was one of the—this was a nice advance, because we used to do it all with a red sable paintbrush. That’s how we’d put the lettering on the illustrations. So this type of information was giant leap forward. Then once we started getting photo paper, that enabled us to—technology just kept advancing this about as fast as we could keep up with it. And we’d buy stuff, and before the year was out, it was obsolete because something else had come along. So thank goodness, it enabled us to provide a better end product. This was just basically an illustration of—we have a photograph, a colored photograph, of one of the illustrations that shows this. I don’t know what more to say about it than that. Franklin: Okay. No, that’s great. So maybe now we’ll—do you feel comfortable, now that we’ve shown this, do you want to move on to the photographs? Brunson: Sure. Franklin: So what we’ll do then is you’ll sit where I’m sitting, I’ll kind of come around to the side. We’ll get the music stand up, get it focused on the stand, and I’ll come and bring some of our materials over here. And then we will-- Rice: Does that go down any more, or just tilt it? Camera man: That works. Rice: Okay. [INAUDIBLE] Brunson: I don’t even know who that was. Rice: I think that should be okay. Brunson: Can you— Rice: It’s actually positioned—it seems so simple, but it’s really [INAUDIBLE] What do you-- Brunson: Yeah, that’s— Rice: If you want to— Brunson: No, we can— Franklin: [INAUDIBLE] to where you’re at. Rice: Sure. Franklin: Oh, no, I’ll just be behind. Rice: Okay. Franklin: Right here. Okay. Are we ready? Camera man: Yeah, yeah. Let’s go ahead. Franklin: So this is—why don’t you describe this illustration first. What it was, where we would have found it. Brunson: Okay. This was part of the fuel development activity that was an ongoing process at Hanford for nuclear fuel. I picked this one out because it was an attractive illustration. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: There were techniques that were used on this work where I—in this particular way of putting lettering on. You’ll notice the lettering, that the callouts that identify it and the title on this, those were all—this was about a 32 x 40 inch illustration. It was a black-and-white cutaway illustration in perspective. And it was then transferred onto an illustration board, and it was airbrushed. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Which was a time-consuming process. This whole—an illustration like this would probably take a week, a week-and-a-half to do. And it maybe changed several times during that whole process. This was an advanced technique, because prior to using these type of tools, this was often done with a paintbrush. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: Which didn’t have the same sharpness and same quality. This is a very attractive illustration. Franklin: It is. Brunson: And it’s very well done. It was, again, an airbrushed illustration. Franklin: So then, just to reiterate, the lettering on this illustration was put on there by the same method that you demonstrated there with the stylus and the guide. Brunson: Yes, that is correct. Franklin: And so that allows, I imagine, for a lot of kind of quality control over, and consistency— Brunson: Yes. Franklin: --throughout the illustration not to distract from the information being presented. Brunson: And the bad thing about doing the lettering on something like this: after you’ve already done all of this, and spent a week in that process, to have a boo-boo with the paintbrush or a bug, it was a disaster. You had bad dreams about things like that-- Franklin: Oh, jeez. Brunson: --if you’re an illustrator. Franklin: So one of the next ones, kind of a personal favorite of mine, one that’s in our collection of the FFTF, I’d like you to talk about this publication. Were you in charge of the design of this? Brunson: Well— Franklin: Oh, here, can we— Brunson: I wanted to see what was in it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: And see—I didn’t even—yeah, these were— Franklin: Did you do the cover of this? Was this part of your group, or--? Brunson: Yes, yes. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. So kind of describe if you can remember, kind of the thought that went in—this is a very kind of futuristic-looking, digital—but with this kind of realistic photo dropped on it. So kind of maybe describe the kind of the thought process behind this cover. Brunson: Well, it—I didn’t personally draw this—or lay this out. David Beckley, I think, was the illustrator that did, and he was very, very talented. This was in celebration of the first three years of FFTF in operation. It was kind of a bragging tool, if you will. It had—there was—one, it was expensive to do. Back in those days, it was expensive to do something like this. And it borderline pushed the edge for what was legal to do, as far as colors and all of that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: But internally—this, of course is an aerial view of the FFTF Reactor that we put in there. Same illustration. And basically, went through and set all sorts of—oh-ho, there’s an illustration that I did. Well, not only did I do it, but nearly every other person that worked on the FFTF project had some dealings with this, because it changed so many times. But this is an illustration that I did. There was another illustrator who did this little section, this building here, Ron Wick, who retired recently from Supply System. He helped with that, and I did everything else. We submitted it, and it won an international award. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: But it was—this was just basically a recap of the construction milestones and the various activities as they were being—these major components as they were being installed. So it was a classic—this brochure won an award as well. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: For that time. Franklin: Yeah, it’s very visually appealing with its photos. Was the cover—was that done with—was that a—did computers create this cover, or was this kind of analog reproduction of kind of a digital—I guess that’s— Brunson: Yeah, it looks digital, doesn’t it? Franklin: Yeah, it looks kind of very Tron. Brunson: This is probably the third or fourth version, and I think those kind of things evolved. This was a good product. We were all proud to be part of that association. Franklin: Okay. So the next one is another one that we mentioned. We’ll see how we can get this to stay. Might have to come and—oh! All right. Wow. Brunson: Well, that’s pretty well— Franklin: Yeah. It might make it there for a minute. Actually, I’ll probably-- Brunson: We could probably—well that—I think that shows it pretty well. Franklin: Yeah, it sure does. So why don’t we talk about that—so this is the illustration that you said won an award. Brunson: Yeah, it did. And it was done—this was drawn and, of course, like I said, we did so many variations of this drawing. It was inked and this part here, the building itself, was a film positive. It was a giant, clear film with black lines on it. And then we painted on the back of it with acrylic. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: And it was kind of what Disney’s cartoons did. That’s where we kind of developed this thinking of that aspect. It made life a lot easier. It was so much faster than airbrush. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So this is kind of a step up from airbrush. This was 32 inches wide by 40 inches long. It’s actually out of that proportion. This is an illustration of this core that was also 40 inches long. Franklin: Oh, wow. Brunson: And these were 40 inches long. And we did all of these illustrations, time and time again. The background here was done with opaque watercolor. And then this unit was laid on top of that. That’s how it was done. It was—at that time, that was kind of the state of the art. Franklin: Right. Sounds like there’s a lot of different techniques that go into this, different processes. Brunson: And this was all done with sponge. I mean this part down here was just a sea sponge and various colors of dark and light paint. Franklin: Oh, wow. Brunson: And the sky—the actual original, the sky was a little nicer than it is here. But that’s, of course—that’s kind of the setting. So this was in Nuclear Engineering as their centerfold of the year— Franklin: I’ll show that cover real quick. Brunson: --for International Nuclear Engineering. Franklin: Oh, that means you’re top billing right there, the FFTF Foldout. Brunson: Yeah. I was always proud of that. We all were. Rice: That’s a hand-painted title? Franklin: So this is a hand-painted title here? Brunson: Yeah, this is a paintbrush. Red sable brush. You just hand-lettered to make sure that you’ve got it. You lay it out on a piece of paper so you know exactly the center of it and where it’s going to be, and then go in with a light pencil and pencil it in so you had your spelling correct. Because it’s pretty—I’ve even misspelled my name a few times, when you’re concentrating on doing it. So that’s just me. So it was laid out in pencil and then you just hold your breath and start painting, after you’ve scribbled on a piece of scrap for a while to get the feel. If you didn’t do that every day, it was kind of pot luck. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And down here, again, these were done with the bug. Franklin: The stylus? Brunson: Yeah, with the stylus. Rice: So why were some of the titles hand-painted? Brunson: Well, one, they were large. Rice: Mm-hmm. Brunson: You know, some of them were this tall on these illustrations. There wasn’t really any other way, at that time—that we had—that you could create that. Rice: Mm. Brunson: So that was just part of the timeframe. Franklin: That one’s great. Rice: That’s awesome. Franklin: So let’s do—talk a little bit about this. Brunson: Yeah, this was interesting. This—Hank Krueger was one of our cartoonists for years out there. Had a very distinct style and a personality that was—it was great. He was really a character. The Hanford News was, like it says, serving the Hanford family. It came out once a week, and it had all sorts of information in it regarding the state of Hanford. This was a Christmas—it was actually security—it was a security statement about where’s your badge? Franklin: Yeah! Brunson: I’ve kept this for years and years. I’ve shown it a lot. So it always tickles me to see it. Because everything about it has something to do with safety. And that’s how you could justify doing something like that. Franklin: Mm-hm. Brunson: Because an illustration like this doesn’t happen overnight. It took a little—it costs a little to do that. But the Hanford News, for years, the whole back page of it was ads. It was kind of like the free ads that are in the Tri-City Herald today, you know. So there was always a lot of interest in buying a boat or duck decoys or an end table or something. Consequently, it kind of distracted from the work being done on Fridays. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Brunson: So they normally wouldn’t produce—they wouldn’t hand it out until quitting time on Fridays. Franklin: Oh, okay, right, yeah, that makes good sense. So here we go. This might be a little small, but here we have some of the ads here. Right, so cars for sale, wanted. And these were all for—did it cost to, or were these all free ads? Brunson: These were all free ads. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: But you had to be on site. You know, for sale, and wanted, and trade, and free, and commuter pools. So it was a great service. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And all the contractors got it. So it was a great deal. Franklin: Right, yeah, I can imagine that this would have been important. Brunson: But that was part of what we did as well in the graphics department. Rice: [INAUDIBLE] the next one? Franklin: So, here we go. So this photo has you in it right? Brunson: Yeah, that’s me. Franklin: Over on the, second from the left? Brunson: Yeah, I’m the non-president male. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, this is a picture of the president of Westinghouse Hanford Company. His name was Al Squires. This is the team that we finally pulled together after years of actually working on it, the Final Safety Analysis Report. FSAR. It was a major, major activity regarding the safety of the operation of FFTF. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: It was a big job and a lot of people supported it. We had a special activity where they thanked us and gave us cake or something. [LAUGHTER] This was the team that was in charge of the management of it. Franklin: So—this one? Rice: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Yeah. This is kind of different. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: And all of these—all of the things we’ve scanned—all of the items Dennis brought, and then others we’ll make available with the interview on our website. So why don’t you tell us a bit about—this seems a little bit different from— Brunson: Well, there was a time when the PRTR Reactor building in the 300 Area, it was the Plutonium Research Test Reactor. It was a little domed building in the southeast part of the 300 Area. They decided this would be a great place to do work on the Star Wars activities. They were actively pursuing this when we got a new President, and it all went down with one big flush. But during that timeframe, we had a lot of illustrators that got to do some neat drawings about potential activities in space. So it was indeed a Hanford— Franklin: Project? Brunson: Project. Franklin: So the new President you’re talking about, would that have been—so it was George HW? Brunson: No, it was before that. It was back in the Carter days and times like that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Okay, so this predated the Star Wars—Reagan’s STI. Okay, but this was some of the-- Brunson: Yeah. We got excited about it for a while, but we just—it didn’t pan out. So that’s— Franklin: That’s pretty exciting. Rice: Yeah. Franklin: Pretty exciting picture. So this here—let me— Brunson: I don’t know if you can see that—no, that’s-- Franklin: Summary Description of the Fast Flux— Brunson: This is called a HEDL-400. HEDL was Hanford Engineering Development Laboratory. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: We were basically in charge of the Fast Flux Test Facility. Franklin: Does 400 correspond to the area? Brunson: It is—well, I assumed that it did. It was the 400 Area. But inside, that’s—this is the—that’s the negative for that FFTF—the big one— Franklin: Oh, okay! Rice: Cool! Brunson: And they handed this to me in celebration. That was in 1981, when this was produced. Pat Cabell was the editor-in-chief, and I was sort of his whipping boy. Doing illustrations for all of the—and putting the book together. Are you able to see that? A lot of the illustrations in here, I did a lot of these illustrations. And a lot of us in the groups did them. But this is the interim decay storage facility that you have an illustration for over here. Franklin: Right. That’s right here, yeah. Brunson: This was the black-and-white version of that. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: That illustration that you have was done with the film positive and we painted on the back of it. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: I put a six-foot-tall cowboy down here in the corner to show scale. Franklin: That’s how large this is. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, great. Brunson: So this basically is the bible of FFTF, as far as how it’s constructed and how it was finalized. It’s kind of an as-built. Franklin: Okay. Oh, great. Do you have the Ron Kathren— Rice: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. That might be a good one to—I don’t know if we want to go through every single one. Brunson: No, that wasn’t my intent. Franklin: No, but we will make all of those available. Rice: Did he go into detail about how that whole thing was produced? Franklin: This one? I believe so. Brunson: Yeah, pretty much. Franklin: The airbrush and the— Rice: I didn’t quite catch that. I know the other ones— Franklin: So, how do you—Husco--? Brunson: Huscoubea. Franklin: So this is kind of Tri-Cities history, and-- Brunson: Yup! Franklin: WSU Tri-Cities, but also Hanford, in the way of the Joint Center for Graduate—so why don’t you talk a bit about the Huscoubea and your contribution to— Brunson: Yeah, this was—there was a fellow who—his name was Trent—who worked at WSU. Frank Trent was his name. He was a maintenance guy, and he was an artist. He was asked to come up with a critter that was part husky, part cougar and part beaver. They were initially going to use it for the first graduation—the diploma—as kind of a logo. And he struggled with it, and then he came to me and said, hey, can you help me? So I came up with a black-and-white version and they liked it. So he then came back later and they had me do an oil painting of it. So this is part of an oil painting that’s a little bit larger—I mean, shows the river bank, and the river in the distance and all of that. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: And it hung here at the college for years, and I think somewhere it’s still hanging. I hope. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And so here’s another. Brunson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: We’ll have to come up here—and so—a little more. This is Professor Emeritus Ron Kathren who’s been interviewed by us, and Herbert Parker Foundation, long-time health physics professional and proud Coug, holding the oil painting of the Huscoubea on our 20th celebration, which I think would have been in 2008 or 2009. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So this was the final painting, then. Brunson: That’s the painting. Franklin: --that was done. Brunson: It hung in this building upstairs, as you came in. For years and years it was there. Yeah. I used to come out here for art classes at night and on the weekends. It was—it always hung there and I was always so proud of it. It was an unusual illustration. Franklin: Yeah. It’s probably maybe the most unusual college mascot-- Brunson: [LAUGHTER] Rice: Yeah. Franklin: --I’ve ever seen. Brunson: It didn’t last for long. Franklin: Okay, so this will be our last one here. Both of them? Rice: Well, the hand drawing probably. Franklin: Okay. Rice: I don’t know if it will show up, though. Oh, okay. Franklin: It looks like it will. So this obviously isn’t a final, right? Brunson: No, that’s considered a rough. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: That was—we did an ongoing—that was a main—a big part of our activity at Hanford in the graphics department was safety and security. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And it kept a lot of people employed, because they’re always wanting something new to—it was very—they were real serious about safety and security, which is great. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, when you’re dealing with nuclear reactors. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And the Hanford safety record is very well-documented. Okay, well that’s great. And—that, yeah. So, Dennis, thank you so much for coming. Brunson: Well— Franklin: And sharing your story and walking us through the process. Brunson: This was fun. Franklin: Oh, great. Well, thank you. Brunson: I could probably keep this up for a couple hours! [LAUGHTER] If you didn’t have something important to do. <a href="https://youtu.be/pXttl755HyE">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area T Canyon B Canyon FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 300 Area Hanford Science Center 400 Area PRTR (Plutonium Reclamation Test Reactor) HEDL (Hanford Engineering Development Laboratory) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1964- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1964-2008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Brunson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Technical illustration Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Dennis Brunson moved to Richland, Washington in 1964. Dennis worked on the Hanford Site from 1964- 2008. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/12">Oral History Metadata</a> https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7dd799360abfc66852f2e8bd64a904b2.JPG 2f19963384c5700bd5650f9f99cc92f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Buckingham Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: I’m just going to try to remember it— John Stevens Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --as best as I can. Okay. Are we ready? Lori Larsen: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an interview with Steve Buckingham on February 21, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Steve about his experiences working, specifically at the T Plant, on the Hanford Site. And for the record, Steve, could you state and spell your full legal name for us? Buckingham: It’s John Stevens Buckingham. B-U-C-K-I-N-G-H-A-M. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: And you don’t need the John Stevens, but— Franklin: I suppose we could skip it. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Just a quick recap, you did an oral history with us several years ago— Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --where you talked about your life— Buckingham: At Hanford. Franklin: Your early life, and then your life at Hanford. So this is specifically will be about T Plant because we’re trying to gather as much information related to T Plant as we can, as there’s a push to include it, perhaps, in the Manhattan Project Historical Park, and bring some protective legislation on it and documents like a Historic American Engineering record and things like that. So, Steve, if I remember correctly, you came to the Hanford Site shortly after World War II. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: Correct? And tell me about how you got here. Buckingham: Well, I started at Washington State in 1941, right out of high school. Went from—I graduated from Raymond, Washington. And of course, the war started; the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor that fall or winter. I was able to finish my freshman year and my first semester my sophomore year. But after the war started, the campus was just overrun with people looking, trying to recruit candidates for different programs. I tried to get into several programs and finally got into one with the Air Corps; they were looking for future meteorologists. So I enlisted in the Air Corps. My mother wouldn’t sign off on me, because I was still only 17, but Dad signed and let me go ahead. Then just shortly after the second semester started, they called me to active duty and sent me down to Reed College in Portland for pre-meteorology. So I spent a year down there in Reed. Reed was kind of an interesting situation, coming from a rather conservative Washington State College, at that time, to Reed where you could smoke on campus, smoke in classrooms, go up and visit, go up into the girls’ dormitory anytime, very little restrictions. But it was an education, and I must say, Reed has a very fine education. I think the best. We took the standard classes we were taking. We took math, physics, oh, some history classes, and some literature classes. I was there for a year, and then the Air Corps decided they didn’t need any more meteorologists. So I applied again to communications in the Air Corps. They sent me to, oh, officer candidate school in Seymour Johnson Field, South Carolina and I was there for about four months. And then went up to Yale University where I went through communications and received a commission as a second lieutenant in communications in Air Corps. They were looking for people with a pretty good educational background, particularly in math and physics, because they were developing radar at the time. So I applied and they sent me from Yale up to Harvard where I went through a three-month course in electrical engineering. [LAUGHTER] And then transferred down to MIT, where I then worked developing radar for another six months before they finally sent me down to get ready. By then the war had ended. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t know what to do with me. So I ended up at Kirkland Field. All we were doing is bombers coming in from the—oh, retired bombers were coming in; we removed the radar equipment from the bombers before they put them into storage down in Arizona. And finally they let me go back to college. So I had a year-and-a-half of college to finish. And I got my degree with all sorts of majors. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And where did you finish your schooling? Buckingham: At Washington State. Franklin: And what was your degree in when you— Buckingham: My degree was what they called general. But I had majors in math, I had a major in physics, I had a major in chemistry. And a major in English. Franklin: Wow. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Quite a renaissance man. Buckingham: Oh, yeah. But it was fun. I was able to graduate in 1947. Franklin: Okay, so kind of in the beginning of that GI boom. Buckingham: Yeah, the GIs were just starting to come back onto campus. And we came—I got a job here in the analytical laboratory. They were developing the REDOX process. Franklin: And, sorry, what year did you come to Hanford? Buckingham: 1947. Franklin: 1947. And your first job was at the analytical lab. Buckingham: Analytical lab. The REDOX process was really kind of a—it was a new innovation into the technology. Because it was a solvent extraction process, where the old bismuth phosphate process that was the original process developed from Seaborg’s laboratory experiments, was kind of—well, they couldn’t recover the—you know, when they irradiated the uranium in the reactors, they only made two or—I think it was four grams of plutonium for every pound of uranium that went into that reactor. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds about right. Buckingham: So it was—just wasn’t very—and that uranium went back to the waste storage tanks. So it was—they were beginning to try to look for a new way to also recover the uranium at the same time they were getting the plutonium out. We were—the engineers were working very hard on developing this REDOX process. And it was—unfortunately, they were using ammonium nitrate as a salting agent in the solvent extraction process when Texas City blew up. So—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m sorry, could you—I’m not familiar with that. Could you talk a little more about—they were using ammonium nitrate in the bismuth phosphate process? Buckingham: Yeah. That is what is called a salting agent, to help extract the uranium and the plutonium into this organic phase. The organic is methyl isobutyl ketone, was the extractant. The whole theory of it was we could extract the plutonium and uranium into this organic phase, and then in the next step, we could use—change the valence of plutonium and separate the plutonium from the uranium. It was a very good, clean process that was really—one of the very early solvent extraction processes ever developed. Well, this—they began constructing the REDOX plant out there and so the development work was kind of winding down, but they didn’t want to get rid of us, because they knew that we were going to be working on that REDOX process. Franklin: And the REDOX process, that was—was that specifically to recover the uranium and— Buckingham: And the plutonium. Franklin: And the plutonium. Was it to recover the uranium from the tanks, or was it to process new fuels? Buckingham: New fuel. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: All new fuel. Franklin: So it replaced bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: Yeah, we replaced the old bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: And what—that took place in the REDOX facility, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Not in the T Plant. Buckingham: Not in the old T Plant. But they needed to put us someplace, so they sent several of us out to being shift supervisors out at both the T Plant and the B Plant, which were identical plants. Franklin: Right. As well as—was the U Plant also identical to— Buckingham: U Plant was identical, but it was never used as a solvent extraction—as a facility for that. That came later. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. I’d like to back up. So you mentioned this ammonium nitrate that was used in bismuth phosphate. Was that also used in the REDOX process? Buckingham: That was the one that was used in the REDOX process. Franklin: Oh, in the REDOX process. Buckingham: The REDOX process. Franklin: Not in bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: No. Franklin: You’d mentioned Texas City explosion? Buckingham: Originally, the salting agent to help in the REDOX process to help extract the uranium and plutonium, they used what was called a salting agent. This is just to help push it into the organic phase. Well, the original salting agent we were using was ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate—[LAUGHTER]—used in gunpowder. And there was this rather horrible accident down in Texas City that—so they had to begin looking for a new salting agent at that time. And that’s when they went from the ammonium nitrate to aluminum nitrate. Franklin: Hmm. Was aluminum nitrate more efficient, more stable, or both? Buckingham: Well, it was not explosive like ammonium nitrate. It was more stable. It worked very well. So they—but there was quite a little bit of work redeveloping the necessity of using the aluminum nitrate. So there was about a year delay in the startup of the REDOX process. And that’s when I was at T Plant. Now, the T Plant, it was kind of fun. We weren’t real hard-pressed because the Cold War hadn’t started yet. So it was kind of laidback then. The people who worked out there—we were working—it was three shifts a day, seven days a week. So it was a—I was on C shift. But it gave us experience working with real material out there, because we were still separating plutonium using the old bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: Oh, okay, good, that’s what I was going to ask you about that. So when you got there in ’47 and you were stationed at T Plant—while the REDOX process was in development, you were still processing with bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: Bismuth phosphate, yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you can, as easy as you could for a layman, kind of walk me through the bismuth phosphate—what makes the bismuth phosphate process and what makes it unique? Buckingham: Well, the bismuth phosphate process is what—in chemical engineering, if you have just a trace of an element that you’re trying to separate out, you often have to use an additional new inert material that will help increase the volume of the precipitate. And the bismuth phosphate process, essentially what we were doing was precipitating plutonium phosphate, but we didn’t—there wasn’t enough volume, so we added another element called bismuth that would increase the volume of the plutonium that precipitated. Then we’d have to do another precipitation to separate the plutonium out of the—with another precipitation process, to precipitate only the plutonium. Franklin: So first you would kind of bind the bismuth to the plutonium and then pull that out. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: And then you’d take that much more refined—you know, refined—because you’ve stripped out the uranium, the transuranics, and then— Buckingham: Because if you could change the valence state of the plutonium, which wouldn’t then precipitate. Franklin: And how would you separate the bismuth from the plutonium? Buckingham: We would oxidize the plutonium to—let’s see if I can remember—it was in the four state in the first separation where we were first separation. Then we would oxidize it, we’d reduce it to the three state, which wouldn’t precipitate, then, in the next step. Franklin: What are the states that you’re talking about? You said from the four state to the three state. Buckingham: Oh, that’s the valence state. The oxidization state of the plutonium. Essentially—that’s essentially the way that plutonium is separated from the uranium in all the separation processes. We change the valence of the plutonium from four to three. Franklin: And that refers to the position of the electrons, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. It’s been a long time since I’ve had chemistry class. You’ll have to excuse me. You can imagine as a historian it’s been quite a while. Okay. These terms are familiar to me. Okay, so, what kind of equipment would you use to do this work? Buckingham: Well, in the—similar in both the original bismuth phosphate process, of course the fuel came up from the 100 Area in cask carts and they were put into a dissolver. And in the dissolver, we would first have to remove the aluminum cans that the uranium was canned in, in the reactors. Then dissolve the mixture of uranium and plutonium with nitric acid. And this was usually done as several steps. That’s when the brown fumes used to come pouring out of our stacks. [LAUGHTER] Then after it’s dissolved, we would then add this bismuth, dissolve bismuth nitrate to the mixture—to the dissolver fluid and precipitate a mixture of bismuth phosphate and plutonium phosphate. The plutonium was then jetted out to the Tank Farms and then we would redissolve—or we would redissolve that precipitate and precipitate the—change the—oxidize or reduce the plutonium to the three state, which then wouldn’t precipitate in the bismuth phosphate. We’d have to—I think there were—in the T Plant, there were 40 cells. That meant 20 steps of going between the precipitating the plutonium down and precipitating the—just cleaning the plutonium up. And each step, of course—in the original dissolution, the uranium and a lot of the fission products were removed in that first precipitation step. Franklin: The stuff like the transuranics and things—? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: So like the cesium and strontium—what other kinds of fission products— Buckingham: Oh, there’s just a whole pile of fission products that were developed—formed in that, during the irradiation process. Franklin: Like iodine— Buckingham: Iodine, and oh, good grief, a lot of them that—the bad ones was strontium-90 and cesium-137, of course, because they’re highly radioactive. But there was a whole stack of them in there. Franklin: So the plutonium’s kind of buried in all of this, right, and it’s the goal, but it’s one of the smaller products. Buckingham: Smaller products. Franklin: What kind of—you said about 40 cells, 20 steps. What kind of equipment were in the cells? How— Buckingham: Well, in each—let’s see, in the first two cells, there was a feed tank, of course. There was a centrifuge, a continuous centrifuge. And a receiving tank. And I’m trying to think what all went into that second cell. They would work together, and I think the feed tank might have been in the adjacent cell. The walls of those cells were about 15 feet thick of reinforced concrete, because of the radiation. Franklin: Between you and the cell, right? Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: Because you were doing all of this work remotely. Buckingham: It’s all done remotely. Franklin: Right. And did you ever have direct viewing of— Buckingham: No. Franklin: --what was going on in the cell? So how did you—I guess one of the questions people would ask, is how did you know— Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --what was going on, and how did you know if things were working correctly or if there was a problem? Buckingham: They had a microphone in the cell and you could hear those centrifuges turning. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Buckingham: And they made very distinct noise when they finally ran out of fluid. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay, so that’s how you would— Buckingham: That’s how you would tell. And those operators got to be very clever on detecting when it was time to go onto the next step. Franklin: How would you transfer material from one cell to another? Buckingham: Everything was transferred with air jets. Franklin: Air jets. I’m having trouble visualizing that. What other applications do you know that air jets were used in—like, how does an air jet work? How would that— Buckingham: Well, it would just—well, it’s like an aspirator. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: I guess that’s the closest you could come to, is like an aspirator. Franklin: Okay. So that would kind of—would it push or pull the material through each cell? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Did it push and pull or did it--? Buckingham: Essentially pushed it from one tank to the next. Franklin: Okay. I imagine that through this process, I know that the highly accountable material was the plutonium, but you would want to sample to make sure that things were going right, and that your—that the amount of plutonium you were producing was matching the calculations of what should be— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --what should be produced when the fuel was irradiated. So how would you take the samples? Buckingham: Well, there were samplers between—from every one of these tanks. And it was circulated around through a little cup, up near the surface of the tank. [PHONE RINGING] Buckingham: And between the tanks, essentially, is what they were. And it would—they’d go in and sample it—they’d recirculate through until they thought they had a fair sample. It was for a certain number of minutes and all that kind of stuff. Franklin: I would imagine those samples would be very radioactive. Buckingham: They were sampled in what was called a doorstop. It’s a little tiny pipette. [LAUGHTER] In quite a bit of stainless steel, about four inches in diameter. And there was a little insert inside that that the pipette would go down into. People would have to go in—actually go into the canyon to sample these different tanks at different times. We’d have to sample the receiving tank to make sure we weren’t dumping a lot of plutonium back into—out into the waste tank, and to also get a feel for how much plutonium was being moved and so forth. So, those first samples were pretty hot. They had to be handled behind—we had what was a special device in the laboratory that we would sample those tanks with those pipettes out of. Franklin: Wow. Did you ever have to go collect a sample? Buckingham: Only once. Franklin: I wonder—could you describe that for me? Buckingham: Well, you had to put on coveralls, wear a face mask, we weren’t on oxygen—we weren’t on air at that time. Now they even have to put on air supply. But it was really kind of interesting, because at the back of the T Plant there were these entries into the different levels. You’d have to call the dispatcher to tell her—tell them that we were entering, and they would then start timing you, let you know how much time you had to go in and get that sample, and get in to the doorstop and then get it back out so it can be delivered to the lab next-door. Franklin: And that’s because you would be receiving a dose-- Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --when you were in there. How much time could you be in the canyon? Buckingham: Oh, you could be in there maybe 20 minutes. 20, 30 minutes. Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: The cells were so thick, the walls of the cells were so thick, even the lids were offset on steps so that you weren’t getting an awful lot of radiation in there, but you were getting quite a bit. And then of course, when you get the sample up into the pipette, moving it into the doorstop, you were getting a bit of a dose. It wasn’t fun. Franklin: You said you had to put on a face mask and coveralls—how thick was all of that? Buckingham: Well, you had to put on two pairs of coveralls. Franklin: Two pairs of coveralls. Buckingham: Two pairs. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: And boots, gloves. Let’s see what other—a hood. You were thoroughly dressed. And then you had to be checked out, of course. There was always an RM person there, making sure you didn’t have anything on you when you came out. Franklin: And RM stands for--? Buckingham: Radiation monitor. Franklin: Okay. Similar to—is that what today would be called an HBT? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Was RM the standard terminology at the time? Buckingham: That was the terminology at the time. Franklin: But same basic— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Same basic job, okay. I’m wondering, I’d like to step back for a minute and I’d like to ask you about the first time you saw the canyon, the T Plant. I’m wondering if you could describe the building, but also how you felt about it, you know. Your impressions of the building. Buckingham: Scared. [LAUGHTER] Buckingham: That really was. I was just absolutely confounded about the whole thing. Franklin: Why? Buckingham: Well, the building was 800 feet long. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: About 30 feet wide. And a third of it was, or a good portion of it was below ground level. And then a long—one side of it was what they called the operating galleries. And this was where the people, the operators, sat. And they were the ones who—there was also as long as that gallery was where they had the tanks that they fed the new chemicals in for the separation process. It was—there’s then a crane ran the whole length of the building. And the crane was operated behind a concrete wall and it was a lead-shielded crane. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How did the person operating the crane see what they were doing? Buckingham: Through optics. Franklin: Such as? Buckingham: Just like a telescope. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: And they were canny. Those crane operators were canny. I think they had a second sense of feeling where that crane hook was. But they could see it. Franklin: Did they also use television as well? Buckingham: No, that—television was hardly invented at that stage in the game. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: It was strictly optics. Franklin: Was television, CCTV added to the processing later? Buckingham: Later on, yeah. Franklin: Do you know approximately when that was? Buckingham: Oh, gosh, it wasn’t until—well, they were no longer using the bismuth phosphate process when they finally got television. It wasn’t until, oh, gosh, I would say well into the ‘70s before we even had the idea of using much television. Franklin: Okay. Had you ever seen a building like the T Plant before? Buckingham: Never. Franklin: I’m wondering—you mentioned the brown fumes that came out. Could you describe the stack? How tall was it, and--? Buckingham: Well, the stack was about 50 feet tall, and of course it was part of the ventilation system. Now, the dissolver would—any time you dissolve a metal in nitric acid, you’re going to get NO2 off. The original processes, we did not try to do anything about that NO2. We just booted it out into the atmosphere. You could always tell when they were—we were very closely regulated when we couldn’t dissolve—that was why there was a weather station out at Hanford. If the weather was not good for dissolving, we couldn’t dissolve, or they’d have to drown the dissolver to stop the reaction. Franklin: What would be bad weather for dissolving? Buckingham: High winds. Franklin: Because it would be variable where it would go, or--? Buckingham: Yeah. They didn’t want too much of that stuff to leave the Hanford Project. You know, even after running out there for quite a number of years, there was a big ruckus about all the radiation that came from Hanford causing downwind cancers and all that good stuff. And that’s when they did that very extensive study of how the radiation went from Hanford. There was a row of samplers built for about 30 miles around Hanford to detect—if they could detect anything coming from radiation. And then also that’s when we got into the REDOX process. They decided they would try to recover a lot of that nitric acid. So we put in absorbers so that the fumes weren’t as brown coming out of the process after a few years. [LAUGHTER] And they did a very extensive study of the atmospheric dispersion of stuff around. Gosh, there’s so many studies on all that. And also, down on the river, we had—University of Washington had a fish hatchery where we were studying the effect of any—well, it was started out the effect of the water through the reactors, how it was affecting the fish. And also they were beginning to study what’s happening to the cooling waters and so forth were just put into cooling ponds. [LAUGHTER] We had some pretty hot ducks out there at one time. [LAUGHTER] But— Franklin: Hot how? Buckingham: Radioactive. Franklin: And how did they become radioactive? Buckingham: Well, you know, there’s—we were trying very hard to not discharge anything to these surface ponds. But there were always leaks. And somehow or other, radiation always managed to get into some of these ponds. And some of them became fairly grossly contaminated over the years. And also, that’s when they began looking at the amount of—the effect of groundwater under the separation plants. We knew more about what was going on underground than most people know about what’s going on on the surface. Franklin: Right, because of the worry of contaminating the groundwater, right? Buckingham: Yeah, they didn’t want to contaminate the groundwater. And that was pretty important. Also, where’s the groundwater going? They know it’s going towards the river. And how long is going to take? And certain radioisotopes were moving faster than others. Which was a big concern. So we were doing a lot of studies on that. Oh, I don’t know. It’s just amazing the studies that were going on. You know, there was also a pretty good-sized animal farm down there by F— Franklin: F Reactor, right? Buckingham: F factory, yeah. [LAUGHTER] And also the hot desert, the hot poop out in the desert from the animals that had gotten some—the Cold War got started through all this period of time. It was to get that plutonium out of here come hell or high water. And we were running out of waste storage tanks, and we didn’t have any—this is when we went through a procedure of trying to precipitate enough of the bad active radioisotopes in the waste storage tanks to be able to keep running, keep our space going. Some of these things didn’t really work out too well. But we were making plutonium. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Some of what things didn’t work out too well? Buckingham: Well, some of what—we were precipitating some of the higher radioactive isotopes in the tanks by adding—oh, let’s see, what was it that we were adding? Gosh, I can’t remember now. Oh, dear. We went through so many different processes that it’s kind of funny. Then we also went through the process of wanting to recover all that uranium that we had put out into those waste tanks. Franklin: Right, I was going to ask you about that. Buckingham: That was when we revamped U Plant. Franklin: And that was specifically for recovering— Buckingham: Uranium. Franklin: Uranium. And I’m wondering if you could—I’d like to go back a little bit but end up there, but go back a little bit. You, I imagine, when you came in ’47, you worked with a lot of people that had worked at Hanford during the Manhattan Project, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: How many people were still around from the Manhattan Project when you started? Buckingham: Oh, I would imagine maybe a couple thousand. We didn’t have a big crew here, but there were quite a few people here. Of course, DuPont had just left when we came. They left in January, and I came in June or July. Franklin: Okay. And you worked for General Electric? Buckingham: Yeah, it was General Electric was the one who was running the facility at that time. Franklin: And were any of your fellow engineers—had any of them been around in the Manhattan Project? Buckingham: Yeah, most of them. Most of the people we were working with had been here during DuPont. Uncle DuPont. They were very proud of Uncle DuPont. [LAUGHTER] And we were actually still operating under DuPont procedures. Franklin: For the processes? Buckingham: For the processes. Franklin: How long did you continue to operate under those procedures? Buckingham: Oh, I think we must’ve operated under them for over ten years. Franklin: Oh, wow. Was the uranium that was going into the storage tanks during World War II and a little after, was that a concern at the time, in terms of recovering that as fuel and/or worrying about the space in the tanks? Buckingham: Well, it was more concerned about—it was a fuel that was usable. Uranium was becoming a very valuable product at that time, because there was a lot of work going on with power reactors, the building of—looking at the possibility of using power reactors. There were several companies getting into building reactors. This was going to be the new power thing of the future. Franklin: Right. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Because it puts off so much heat, right? Buckingham: Yeah! Franklin: That was the major attractiveness to producing power, would be to generate steam. Buckingham: And we actually put so much radioactivity in some of those old tanks that they were boiling. Those old storage tanks. Franklin: Like, as in the material was actually boiling. Buckingham: Actually boiling. Franklin: Wow. Buckingham: That was from the decay of a lot of the radioactive material. And, you know, we also recovered—went to a recovery of strontium-90 and cesium-137, because these were going to be valuable isotopes that could be used. In fact, there were a lot of the -90 isotopes used to run beacons up north. Franklin: Beacons? Buckingham: Yeah, radio-beacons because of the heat generated from those strontium-90. Franklin: Oh, okay. Those would be used in arctic environments. Buckingham: Yeah, for arctic environments where you couldn’t depend on sunshine in the middle of winter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Wow. Buckingham: So, we went—that’s one of the things that was kind of fun in my later work, I went into this organization called Process Chemistry where we were looking at all these different isotopes. And there was a whole array of them that we thought were going to be valuable isotopes to use. That’s why they repurposed the old bismuth phosphate process B Plant into recover strontium and—[LAUGHTER] strontium and cesium. Franklin: It’s pretty amazing that they used plants which had been made—I guess when they were made, correct me if I’m wrong, but the final process hadn’t been quite decided when DuPont was constructing the T Plant and B Plant, right? They had an idea but they hadn’t settled on the specifics. Buckingham: No, the only way you could extract something like that—the extraction process was not really new. It’s used in chemistry laboratories. It was an ether extraction. Well, you know, ether is not very friendly material to use. Franklin: No, it’s very flammable, right? Buckingham: Yeah, very flammable. But when they discovered this methyl isobutyl ketone from the REDOX process, it was a whole new field of chemistry that was coming in. Not only usable in nuclear material; it was usable in a lot of metallurgical processes. Franklin: What did you call that? Something ketone? Buckingham: Methyl isobutyl ketones. Hexone. Franklin: Hexone, okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m just going to try to write that down as well as I can spell it. It’s pretty amazing that these, T, and B and U, designed for this one process were able to be kind of retrofitted for all of these different jobs. Was that because the uranium recovery wasn’t all that different, or was it because these buildings were— Buckingham: Well, the uranium recovery was actually kind of off-step to the future of the PUREX process which used tributyl phosphate as an extractant. We used just a more dilute tributyl phosphate as an extractant in the uranium recovery process. Franklin: And PUREX was kind of the final process at Hanford that—like, it was kind of the final evolution of that, what had started with bismuth phosphate, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And that PUREX process, correct me if I’m wrong, was used in other facilities? Buckingham: Now it’s used all over the world, yeah. And it was actually invented here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Right. Because we have the building that bears its name, right? Buckingham: Yeah, right! Franklin: I wanted to ask you a few more questions, some of the ones that John had written—John Fox had written about T Plant. But I had one question before that. When you’d finished—when the material had gone through the cells— Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --and you’d separated out the plutonium, what was that final—and I’m talking about when you first got here, with the bismuth phosphate process. What was the final product? Buckingham: Well, it goes through all these stages in the old bismuth phosphate plant. And then we transferred it over to the 224 Building, which was right behind the plant. And instead of using bismuth phosphate to precipitate the material, we used a lanthanum fluoride precipitation. And this was a little bit cleaner and a little bit more straightforward. Then that material from the old lanthanum fluoride precipitation was essentially a—well, we precipitated it as a hydroxide, plutonium hydroxide. Then dissolved that and shipped it down to the old 231 Building, where it was then just plain concentrated down to make a kind of—well, it wasn’t a paste exactly, but it was a very concentrated solution of plutonium nitrate. Franklin: It was some kind of—like a thick liquid? Buckingham: Very thick liquid. Franklin: Like a sludge? Buckingham: It was essentially a sludge. Franklin: Interesting. Buckingham: And that is what was then shipped down to Los Alamos. Franklin: When was the decision—when did we switch from shipping the semi-liquid to the solid puck or the powder forms? Buckingham: Well, it was—the plant down at Los Alamos was undersized. And they needed a bigger plant to make a solid form, and that’s when they began building the Dash-5 Plant. And good grief, that started in—seemed to me like that started in the ‘50s. Franklin: Okay. So I want to go to some of John’s questions and I’ll try to skip them if I feel like we’ve already talked about them. Buckingham: Sure. Franklin: So how long did it take to run a batch through the T Plant canyon? Buckingham: Oh, it took maybe a week. Franklin: Okay. That’s all? Just one— Buckingham: About a week, yeah. Franklin: So it was shorter than what it took—the time it took to irradiate the fuel in the reactor. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: And is that why they didn’t—why T Plant could handle the material from the three reactors? Because I remember they’d built the three reactors in the Manhattan Project, and then built three identical canyons— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --but only T Plant ran the bismuth phosphate process, correct? Buckingham: No, T and B Plant. Franklin: T, oh, and B. Okay. Buckingham: Yeah, the two plants. They didn’t need U Plant. Franklin: Okay, it was U Plant they didn’t. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Because it took about, what was it, like 30 days to run fuel through the reactor? 30 to 90? Buckingham: Yeah, I think they were in the reactor 30 days. Franklin: And then cooling time. Buckingham: A little bit of cooling time. But we were able to—the two, B and T Plant, were able to handle all the output from the three original reactors. But then they began building more reactors. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What reactors were under—what reactors were at Hanford when you first got to the Site? Buckingham: B, D and F. Franklin: And then the other six were built while you were working? Buckingham: Yeah, then they began—oh, the began to build a replacement for B— Franklin: D. Buckingham: And that was C Reactor. Franklin: Oh, C, right, okay. Buckingham: And then they began building the super reactors, K-E and K-W. [LAUGHTER] Then they began building N Reactor for the dual purpose. So. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And then somewhere in there is DR. Buckingham: DR. Franklin: And H. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. How long did the process take—I guess, I’m trying to—so this follows the how long did it take to run a batch through the T Plant question. I think this is a sub-question. How much more time in the 224 and 231 Buildings? Buckingham: Just a few days, actually, in the 224 Building. Franklin: And what was the 224 Building? Buckingham: Well, that was where we then went from the bismuth phosphate to the lanthanum fluoride. Franklin: So that was kind of like a finishing— Buckingham: Yeah, it was finishing the bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: Did that building have another name besides the 224? Buckingham: No. 224 is all we ever used. Franklin: Okay, and then 231 was a further finishing? Buckingham: That was where it was just concentrated to—that was the final step. Franklin: Okay. And did the 231 have another name, or was it just 231? Buckingham: Just 231 Building. Franklin: Okay. Gotcha. Buckingham: And it went from there into the shipping containers that they shipped it to Los Alamos then. Franklin: So did it take an additional several days in each building? Buckingham: Yeah, just several days. Maybe could’ve taken a week or so. But they had to start—I don’t think it took much more than a week to get it through 231 Building. Franklin: So, a week—conservatively like a week for each? Buckingham: Yeah, it was—well, there were steps that they would go through and you didn’t have to wait until they finished one step to go—another step could be coming in right away. Franklin: Okay. I’ll just put a week or so. That’s a pretty—so the entire process, we could say, would probably be somewhere in the realm of two to three weeks— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --to take the irradiated fuel and have the shipment ready for Los Alamos? Buckingham: I would say it would take less than three weeks. Franklin: Less than three weeks. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. How many days were there when you couldn’t dissolve the fuel sludge because of weather conditions? Buckingham: Oh, it wasn’t too bad here. You know, the climate here is not that bad. It’s just—I would guess that there was probably, in a year there might be less than two months. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: Total. Franklin: Sure. Buckingham: Because it seemed to me like we were constantly—I don’t know whether we were cheating or—[LAUGHTER]—sitting on the edge of—and I don’t know who ever really decided why we couldn’t dissolve. Franklin: Oh, that was my next question here, was who—how was this decided? Buckingham: I don’t know if it was the meteorologist decided. I have no idea who made that final decision. Franklin: Gotcha. How could you tell when each step of the process was completed? You mentioned earlier about the centrifuge noise. Buckingham: Well, the— Franklin: How—sorry, go ahead. Buckingham: Well, in the—they would have to—it took quite a little while to move clear through the old bismuth phosphate process. I would say that it took—it could take up to—it’d take a good hard week of 24-hour days in there to get clear through. If you took one batch and ran it clear through. But, you know, all they have to do is get out of that first two cells and they could bring another one in. So, they were following on very closely. We did— Franklin: How did—oh, sorry. Buckingham: Go ahead. Franklin: Oh, I was going to say, how would you tell in the later cells when it was time to move that material on? What other types of tools did you use? Buckingham: By samples. Franklin: By the sampling? Buckingham: Yeah, by the sampling. And also the point at which—they could tell pretty well when they finished that lanthanum fluoride, they could tell when to move to the next position where they were then precipitating the hydroxide. Franklin: Okay. What about in the T Plant, though, in between cells, how would you know when it was time for the air jets to move a particular batch through? Buckingham: Well, they knew the volumes that they were moving through because they used things that told the volume of what the volume of the tank was. There were bubblers in the tanks. And they could tell pretty well when one step of the process was over with and they were going on to the next step. Franklin: Because you had mentioned earlier that they would use microphones near the centrifuges to tell when the centrifuge was kind of out of liquid because it would emit this particular tone. And so they would also use other measuring devices to tell each volume and things like that? Buckingham: Yeah, they knew the volume of the feed tank that they were pumping out of, and the volume of the waste tank that was being received into. They could—there were ways of doing that. Franklin: How would you read that? Would that be in the operating gallery? Buckingham: It was in the operating gallery. Franklin: And how could you read that volume through 15 feet of concrete? Buckingham: They used what they call bubblers. They’re two pipes going down into the tanks that they could measure by the air pressure going in how much—what the reading was on the—that all showed out on the chart up in the operating gallery. Franklin: Oh, so would it be the pressure of the air— Buckingham: The pressure of the air. Franklin: --hitting, going into the tank would tell you the volume and you could get the volume. Ah, I see. So that was a way, I suppose, to keep an active measurement, but also to—if you have air going in, you don’t have anything coming back. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: Right, so you’re not introducing radiation anywhere in the operating gallery or something like that, okay. Buckingham: No, no. Franklin: Because everything—correct me if I’m wrong—a big concern was kind of keeping everything contained but also having—was pressure a concern in the cells, for example, having a pressurized environment where if you had a leak, the air would rush in and not rush out? Buckingham: Well, of course they were under a slight lower pressure than the outside air pressure, because they had fans sucking the air out all the time. And they went through—later on we had a pretty good filtering system. Before, they were just using—they had just pits with fiberglass filters. Franklin: And later on they went to HAPA filters. Buckingham: Went through—yeah, we went to better filters. Franklin: Interesting, okay. How reliable was the instrumentation? Buckingham: I would say it was very reliable. Because they were using just standard equipment that was used in all sorts of industry around the world. Franklin: How did the introduction—this is my own question; I don’t know if it’s going to fit in here, but—how did the introduction of transistors and things change the layout of the operating gallery? I imagine that that would’ve changed some of the components used. Buckingham: I can’t remember that it actually changed it very much. We would get a little bit better instrumentation coming in, and— Franklin: Was there any special instrumentation designed for this process? Buckingham: I don’t think so. I think we just used standard equipment that was used in any—like, in the oil industry. You know? Just standard. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. You mentioned that you entered the canyon once to take samples. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: How often, though, did crew enter the canyon? Yeah, how often did people take samples? Buckingham: Well, I would say they had to go—we were working on 8-hour shifts, and during an 8-hour shift, I think they made at least one entry a shift. Franklin: Okay, one entry— Buckingham: But it could’ve been a little, few more than that, depending on our pressure of getting something out or— Franklin: And you said they would typically stay about 20 to 30 minutes in the canyon? And was there a strong cut-off? Buckingham: I don’t think so. I can’t ever remember anybody complaining too much about being in there too long or— They kept pretty good track of it, of course. Franklin: Right, well, I’m sure it wasn’t a place where people would want to go and hang out all day. Buckingham: No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How often did you need to change or replace jumpers in a cell? Buckingham: Not very often. Franklin: And, actually, let’s back up, because I realized we hadn’t really talked about—I’m wondering if you could describe a jumper and what it is, what its— Buckingham: Okay, now, in each cell, there would be tanks or equipment. And on each of these, there was a nozzle, many nozzles. If, in fact, you looked into a cell—and then, these connect to an identical thing on the walls of the cell. If you look into one of those cells, it almost looked like looking into a bowl of spaghetti. And the crane operator could go in and remove these jumpers as needed. And it wasn’t too terribly often that they would have to go in. If a piece of equipment would fail, they would have to pull it out. To do that, he would have to know which jumpers to take off. [LAUGHTER] They have to be taken off in a certain pattern, because some of them would be down hidden, down underneath. But, I tell you, those guys were clever. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Well, especially doing it through optics, too. Buckingham: And we would—we took a few large samples, too, out of the samplers. And they would—the crane operator bring a big cask in and set it next to the sampler. Then when he needed to get to pick the crane up, he would get the hook swinging, so he could get it and snag the bale on the big sample and pull it out. Franklin: Wow. Wow. Buckingham: I rode with the crane operators one night, just for about two hours, just to see what they were doing. And they were good. Franklin: What kind of equipment did they use in the cab? Was it a typical kind of crane, or was there any special equipment? Buckingham: It was just pretty much a simple kind of crane. But there were—let’s see, what—there was on the crane itself that operated, it had an impact wrench, two hooks. I can’t think of anything else that they had in it. But the impact wrench, they’d go down and be able to get onto these jumpers. And be able to—that was the way they got these, when they had to replace anything. And it was really rather unique situation. Franklin: So in some ways the jumpers were kind of—they were like the piping between the cells, or kind of like— Buckingham: They were the piping between the cells, all the electricity, all the instrumentation, everything had to come through those jumpers. Franklin: But what was being treated didn’t go through the jumpers, right? Buckingham: No. Franklin: That went through the stairs. Buckingham: Well, if it was going from one cell to the next cell, it had to go through one of the jumpers. Franklin: Oh, okay, so the jumpers were kind of like dual-purpose, that they carried, like you said, the electrical cables and things like that, but then other jumpers would also carry— Buckingham: Liquids. Franklin: --various liquids through. Would they carry just the precipitating agents, or would they carry the fuel, the irradiated— Buckingham: The irradiated stuff. Everything. Franklin: So you really needed to know which jumper was carrying what. Buckingham: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Were they clearly marked as to which were hot-- Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: Or like wet and dry jumpers? Buckingham: Well, not particularly, hot, wet and dry, but you knew what jumper did what. Franklin: Okay, it was pretty clear to the crane operator what— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, gotcha. And how long would it take to change or replace a jumper in a cell? Buckingham: Oh, I would say they could do it about—I would say within half an hour, they could do it. Or half an hour to an hour, they could do a lot of changing out in a cell, depending how complicated the equipment was that had to be moved and that time. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. How did you dispose of contaminated jumpers? Buckingham: They’d be put into a burial box. Franklin: Describe a burial box. Buckingham: Well, as I recall, they were usually—depending on if it was a very radioactive jumper, for example, they would try to put it into a coffin-like container, like a—but it has to be something that they can pick up and move out of that canyon. So it can’t be too awkward. As I recall, it seemed like just a lot of them were plywood. Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: Depending on how much radiation. Of course, they could be flushed out in— Franklin: And where would that be stored, where would it be buried? Buckingham: Out in the burial ground. Franklin: Okay. What was the burial ground like when you started at Hanford? I imagine it’s probably different from the burial grounds today. Buckingham: I don’t think so. I think they were the same. They were out there near the separation plants. They were just big trenches. They would, depending on what was being disposed of in some of them, they actually brought them in on railcars. Built a siting out there for all the failed equipment in as close as they could get it to the pit, and then use bulldozers or something to pull it over into the pit, and start backfilling it. Franklin: Hmm, okay. Buckingham: You stayed out of the area when it was being done. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Did any items removed from the cell contaminate the canyon floor? Buckingham: Yes. But that was always something that, they tried not to do that, of course. Franklin: When that happened, what would the procedure be to— Buckingham: Well, then they had to—if there was any contamination that got out of the cell itself, it had to be cleaned, cleaned up. Franklin: How would it be cleaned? Buckingham: Oh, could be sprayed down with water or acid or something. Flushed out. I can’t remember any time that there was anything seriously lost out of any of the cells. But it could’ve happened. Franklin: Okay. Who kept track of the amount of product so you could tell if the yield was within acceptable limits? Buckingham: There was a bunch of people down in headquarters that did that. I don’t have any idea who did keeping track of it. The engineers didn’t. Franklin: Okay. But I’m sure you furnished your sample results, or—were the sample results when you took samples, were those used to determine the amounts of—because I imagine, that would be a primary concern, right, would be the proper amount of plutonium was making it through the process. That would—because they would—for each fuel element, you would get so much plutonium out of that. So you would want to recover as close to 100% as you could. Buckingham: As much as we could, right. And I don’t know who kept track of all that stuff. There was—it went into the operating offices up in—and there was somebody in there that did something with it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Were there ever any unusual incidents worth mentioning while you worked there? Buckingham: Well, yes, one time during a windstorm, a steam pipe fell. That was one that was a little exciting because it ruptured when it fell. And let’s see. A lot of those, you know, a lot of those jets were run by steam instead of air, too. Let me think if there’s anything else. Oh, we had a pretty bad—blew a bunch of ruthenium out of one of the stacks one time and we had a lot of contamination around the old REDOX plant on the ground. Franklin: How did the ruthenium go up the stack and leave the facility? Buckingham: Well, ruthenium is pretty volatile. It was a problem. It was one of our radioactive isotope problems for REDOX facility. Franklin: Oh, but that’s specifically REDOX and not T Plant? Or did that happen— Buckingham: It wasn’t so bad in the T Plant. We didn’t seem to have any real serious problems there that I can recall. Franklin: How long did you work at the T Plant? Buckingham: About a year. Franklin: Just about, so ’47-’48 timeframe? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: And then you went to the REDOX plant? Buckingham: Well, REDOX was just on the verge of getting started; they were working on it. Then I went down and just worked on 300 Area in what they called the standards lab for about a year. And then went into the process chemistry. Franklin: After bismuth phosphate was—because bismuth phosphate was kind of retired as a process when REDOX came online. Buckingham: Yup. Franklin: Correct? What other missions did the T Plant have in its life that you know of? And were you involved in any of them? Buckingham: I wasn’t involved in any of them. I think it essentially—well, Battelle ran some experiments up there, but I don’t think they were using the plant; I think they were using what they called the head end. It was where they were checking ventilation kind of stuff. So it was used for—a lot of it was used for ventilation studies. Franklin: Was the head end where the fuel elements came in, or— Buckingham: That’s where the fuel elements came in. Franklin: Where the train would back up and— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to say about T Plant? Buckingham: Well, I like to always—when I was doing tours, I would tell people that there was only something like four grams of plutonium in each one of those fuel elements that was put into T Plant. So it was really a—they had to add this additional chemical to make it—to help separate the plutonium out. Franklin: To kind of find it, right, in all of the— Buckingham: Yeah. And the process worked successfully. Also, you know, when you stop to think of all that engineering that went into that scale-up, it’s really kind of mind-boggling. Because we just didn’t really know how things were going to go. [LAUGHTER] I— Franklin: Did you—oh, sorry. Buckingham: I think that the mere fact that they were able to do it is a— Franklin: Would you consider it comparable to the engineering feat of building the B Reactor? Because—is there a comparison there, because there had been a small graphite reactor that was scaled up to be the B. And is the same kind of true with T? There was this laboratory process that was proven, but had not been done on that scale. Is that a comparable— Buckingham: That’s comparable, yeah. They didn’t—I don’t even think they had a laboratory at Oak Ridge that they were doing anything with this scale on. Franklin: Is the T Plant kind of the—kind of the same—what’s the word I’m looking for—kind of the same thing to chemical engineering as B is to nuclear reactors? Would you say it’s a milestone? Buckingham: I’d say it was a milestone, then, because, well, there was almost every chemical process you could think of that was being used in it. Franklin: Right, and it played this really crucial role in this process. Right? Because it feels like the reactors are kind of—you know, they get a lot of the coverage, but this chemical separations process is crucial. Buckingham: Oh, good heavens, yes! We had to get that plutonium out of that element somehow or other. You just don’t go in and pick it out with a pair of pliers! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to add about T Plant or—reflections on your year spent at the T Plant? Buckingham: Well, mine were really pretty minimal, and being just in the laboratory out there doing the analytical work, it was an experience. [LAUGHTER] It was the first time that I will say that I was using some of my experience that I received in analytical chemistry at good old Washington State College. [LAUGHTER] In fact, I went to tell—went over to visit one time, and I mentioned it to my analytical professor, I told him, he says, now I understand why you were such a stinker in the lab of having things well-organized and in place. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: You hadn’t quite appreciated it at the time, right? Buckingham: Yeah, because, you know, we were using micro—you couldn’t use a large sample. You had to use—we were using very small samples for everything because they were so damned radioactive. Franklin: Right, so you really had to have everything calibrated properly— Buckingham: Properly. Franklin: And well-organized. Buckingham: And you were very careful with everything. You had to have a neat desk, a neat bench, to get anything done. It was an experience, I will— Franklin; Great, well, Steve, thank you very much for coming. I know it was only a short period of your work at Hanford, but thank you for going into such detail. It’s really important to capture this information and make the case for preserving the T Plant. Buckingham: Well, I feel like there’s so many little odds and ends that are just being forgotten. I’m really proud of the work that we’ve done here over the years. It’s just—to me, it’s just something that’s unbelievable. Unbelievable in science. Franklin: Right, yeah. Well, testing out all of these new processes. Buckingham: And the other scientific work that was being done here on the radiation and the movement of radioactive nuclides around and everything—gosh, we did a lot of interesting things. We had wells dug out there by the weather tower that we were trying to study what it was doing down under the ground. I think we knew more about what was moving around— And I feel kind of angry when they start belittling some of the stuff that was done. It’s—it just—in the whole study of the environment that we’ve done around here is, to me, is unbelievable, the work that they’ve produced. And the transportation of radionuclides in the plants that’s still going on. Franklin: Well, Steve, thank you so much for coming and talking to us about T Plant. Buckingham: My pleasure. I think I kind of jumbled a lot of stuff around. Franklin: No, I understand—I think I understand what was going on there, finally, a little bit better than—because I tried reading the documentation and it’s a little—I appreciate you putting it in a simpler form that, you know, even a historian can understand. [LAUGHTER] <a href="https://youtu.be/fP_QO-P7Jg4">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview REDOX T Plant B Plant U Plant F Reactor PUREX 224 Building 231 Building B Reactor D Reactor F Reactor C Reactor K East Reactor K West Reactor N Reactor DR Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Buckingham Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Solvent extraction Chemistry Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource This interview with Steve Buckingham is part of an effort to record the history of the T Plant, a facility that processed irradiated fuel from the B Reactor. Using the bismuth phosphate process, T Plant operations were able to extract plutonium from spent fuel rods. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/21/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F483077cc6df15f1808df334b0814152c.JPG c9f378ad79676f9be70f449b7ae3a4f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Buske Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready, Tom? Tom Hungate: We’re rolling. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jim Busk on September 12, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Jim Buske: Okay. It’s Jim Buske. Franklin: Buske, sorry. Buske: B-U-S-K-E. Franklin: Okay. Buske: And the address? Franklin: No, no, no, no address. And is Jim short for James? Buske: No. My given name is Jimmie. I-E. Franklin: Okay. J-I-M-M-I—J-I-M--? Buske: M-I-E. Franklin: Okay. So, Jim, tell me how you came to the area, to the Hanford Site. Buske: Well, Uncle Sam decided he needed me here. So, that’s how I got here. I was in the Army at the time, and I was due to be sent to Alaska. And I got as far as Fort Lewis and come to find out they were so far ahead on sending the replacements up with the same job number that I had, that they were just dividing us all up and sending us all over the world, really. I ended up, along with, I think, five other soldiers at that time being sent to Camp Hanford, Washington. Franklin: Okay. Let’s—if you don’t mind, let’s back up a little bit. Tell me, where and when were you born? Buske: Oh, I was born in Stockton, Illinois, October 11, 1934. Franklin: Okay. And when did you join the services? Yeah. Were you drafted or was it— Buske: I volunteered. On November 29, 1954. Franklin: Okay. Had you been to Washington before? Before you came to Lewis and then came over to Camp Hanford? Buske: No. Never been to Washington. Franklin: What were your first impressions of Camp Hanford when you arrived? Buske: Well, a whole lot different than it is in 2018. When I first got here, it was very hot and dry. There was—if you didn’t water something, it just didn’t grow. The population was way down from what it is today. Quite an area, actually, today. It’s surprising. But vineyards and things like that were still somewhere in the future. Franklin: Where was Camp Hanford located? Buske: Well, the camp itself? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Okay. The headquarters—and it was part of what they called 5th Group, which is about the size of a regiment, I think. But being anti-aircraft, which was our mission, we had groups instead of regiments and brigades, and batteries instead of companies. I was in Headquarters Battery of the 83rd AAA Battalion Nike Missile. Franklin: What was your job? Buske: Well, I was a—the Army told me I was a wheeled vehicle mechanic, but I knew better. When I got out to the permanent spot where I was stationed, I was assigned to a grease pit, just changing oil and greasing vehicles. That’s really about all I was capable of, but they thought I was a mechanic, so that’s what they called me. Anyway, shortly after I got there, the dispatcher was assigned to motor sergeant school. So he left and I became the dispatcher. Franklin: Like radio dispatcher? Or, sorry— Buske: No, just a—it’s a paperwork job where you kept track of maintenance and assigned vehicles to certain areas. It was a fun job, really. Franklin: What was the purpose of Camp Hanford and the Nike Missile Program? Buske: [COUGH] Excuse me. Well, of course, Hanford in World War II in 1943, along with Oak Ridge, Tennessee were the two main nuclear—atomic energy development places in the country. Hanford made plutonium for the A-bomb. It was one of the A-bomb types. It was a real weird place, because, to this day, if someone says, where were you stationed, and I say, Camp Hanford, I just get a blank stare. [COUGH] Excuse me. It was just a hush-hush thing. When I got my orders to Camp Hanford, Washington, I thought they were talking about Washington, DC. Being from Illinois, I thought, well, I’ll get a delay in route and stop by home and see Mom and Dad and the siblings. They put me on a Greyhound bus from Fort Lewis and I went over the Cascade Mountains and right into Richland. That was it. Franklin: How much did you know about Hanford when you—and how much did you learn about Hanford when you were stationed here? Buske: Well, to begin with, I knew zero. I found out that it was really a serious mission that they had. It sounds, maybe, grandiose, but we had just an early warning board, they called it. It was a Plexiglas outline of the whole west coast, all the way from the Bering Sea and the Aleutian Islands, clear down to the border with Mexico. We were the defenders, supposedly, of this whole area, along with several other Nike missile outfits. They were posted—I think there was one up in Seattle at that time and others around. But people didn’t talk about them very much, but they had quite a serious duty to perform. It was pretty hush-hush. Franklin: So your job was not just to protect the Hanford Site but to protect a much larger area. Buske: Correct. Franklin: But you were stationed at the Hanford Site. Buske: Yes, mm-hmm. Franklin: How long were you at Camp Hanford? Buske: A little over 19 months. Franklin: 19 months. What did you do for R&R? Buske: Well, you probably have never heard of the Kennewick Highlands Dance Hall? Franklin: A little bit. We have a little bit about it in our archives. But, yeah, it’s gone now. Buske: When we would get a pass, which you could get every weekend if you didn’t have duty, we’d come in from the area and—actually, right across the road from here, and maybe up or down a little bit, but there was a drive-in movie theater. That was real popular then. Of course, they had their dollar-for-the-carload nights like most of the rest of them did. That was a very popular thing with the soldiers. There was a few bars that were, I think beer and wine bars, that if you were over 18, you could get beer. It was just really—we enjoyed getting acquainted with the local people. They were very receptive to us. Primarily, the biggest share of them by far worked on the Hanford Works, out in the same area that we were stationed in, you know. But you just tried to blend in as much as you could. We never—to my knowledge—never caused any problem or created any trouble. We were treated accordingly. The people took us in real well. We were grateful for that. Franklin: Yeah. Could you describe what a Nike missile site—what goes in, what kind of buildings are there, how big is it, how many men? Buske: Well, okay. Typically, a battery, which is the equivalent of a company, is maybe 150 soldiers at a given site. Their primary mission was to maintain and operate the missiles in the event that they were needed. So maintenance was performed, alerts were held constantly. In Headquarters Battery, we did pretty near all the service work that was required: either vehicles or had all the personnel records and administrative duties. It was small enough to be a pretty close-knit group. Everybody knew their job and did it. And it was more or less almost like a nine-to-five job, except you didn’t go home at night. You just went to your barracks and sacked out. Our barracks were actually 12-men huts. Prefab huts. Which, shortly after I got here, before—I don’t think I’d been here a week, and they had a pretty bad sandstorm. The first morning I woke up and got out of my cot and I stepped right into a sand dune that was on the floor right next to my cot. Luckily they never had too many of those sandstorms. But it was very, like I say, very hot and dry. We were treated good. We didn’t have a lot of harassing and things like that. It was almost like a nine-to-five job, just about. Except it didn’t end at five. Franklin: Yeah. So there was the main headquarters, and then I assume there were sites. Buske: Correct. Franklin: Around. How many sites were there, around—missile sites around the Hanford Site? Buske: Okay, good question. We were Headquarters and we had actually four batteries: A, B, C, and D. I don’t know, maybe you’ve heard this, but D Battery was the one that wasn’t too far from where we sit right now. It was out on Rattlesnake Mountain. I think Highway 240 goes up by that way. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Buske: And it was just as you’re going northwest, it’d be off on your left-hand side. We were responsible for them, but I think actually they were probably over 50 miles away from headquarters—from our company. But you had to—when you cross on the ferry across the Columbia and went up the cliff side, and started north, you went right past C Battery. These were all probably around 150 soldiers per unit. Straight ahead was Headquarters and part of A Battery. But that was just the launcher platoon part of it. The headquarters for A Battery was up further north towards the direction of Moses Lake, but not near that far, but up on Saddle Mountain. And they tried to put the radar units for each battery on high ground so they could cover a lot more sky. Franklin: Sure, sure. Buske: For defensive purposes. So the Saddle Mountain was a pretty high elevation. But they controlled the missile sites down by where we were. Then if you went further down the road about maybe 20 miles was B Battery. Each one of those sites, if I remember right, had four missiles that were actually capable of being fired. Which, thankfully, never were. But anyway. We were really spread out. Franklin: Were you—did you have cause to—did you visit each one, were you rotated through? Where were you stationed, respective of all those different batteries? Buske: Well, in my particular situation, we were all in the battalion headquarters. Franklin: Okay. Buske: So all the maintenance work came to us and we were only capable of a real basic maintenance program. Otherwise, they came back to the rear, to ordnance for overhauls and more complicated repairs. Franklin: Where would that be? Buske: Well, I think, if you’re describing it from here, it would be north on George Washington Way. [COUGH] Excuse me. And you’d come into the base camp and the headquarters were just to the left of—you’d have to turn left off George Washington Way and then head north again, and the group headquarters was, oh, maybe a mile. From here, I would guess maybe around three or four miles away. That was the headquarters for the whole Hanford facility, really. Franklin: For the Army part of the Nike missile sites. Were there any incidences or surprises while you were out here? Buske: Militarily, or--? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, there was one that was really sad. Headquarters of A Battery was up on that Saddle Mountain, but it was just like two-thirds of the battery; the other third were with us down by battalion headquarters. Our mess hall supplied all the food to them, up on the Saddle Mountain. So we had what they call the chow run. As a dispatcher, I’d write out the paperwork and I’d supply—assign the vehicle, and they would haul the food up there usually at noon. It would have enough food for the noon meal and, I guess, maybe breakfast or something. And in between, like, for the third meal, they’d have cold cuts or something like that. But this chow run was everyday about noon or shortly after. The one noon, I wrote the guy up a trip ticket and off he went. About half an hour later, we found out, he’d gone over the side and got killed. I don’t think they ever did really determine whether he was going too fast or he fell asleep or—anyway, there was nothing underhanded about what happened. It was just an accident. The other one that comes to mind was more—looking back, it was more humorous than anything. They had, in probably late summer of 1956, they had a nationwide, maybe global-wide, I don’t know, operation called Operation Crackerjack. It was SAC-based—SAC aircraft, and the airplanes or whatever were trying to attack us like our enemies would do. Our mission was to theoretically not allow that to happen. Shoot ‘em down or whatever. Of course no one fired anything live. But just before that, one of our leading officers was a strict believer in everybody should know everybody else’s job and be capable of filling in when needed, blah, blah, blah. So he had people like me and some other people from the motor pool doing radar work. Which we knew nothing about. [LAUGHTER] Well, anyway, we were in the main radar location and I was assigned to the early morning board. It had the whole post with the Aleutian Islands and everything. It was, oh, about maybe three feet wide and five feet tall or something like that Plexiglas. I had to stand behind that with headphones on and listen to all this information being rattled in my ear. I didn’t catch most of it, and the ones that I did catch, I really didn’t know for sure what they said. But they would give the coordinates of a bogey, and I was supposed to put an X on the board and then write backwards—because the duty officer up on what they called the bridge could see it from his direction and looked okay. But it was all totally confusing to me. And I wasn’t alone. There was several others of us that really loused up bad. Well, anyway, the officer on the bridge, they called it, he was looking down here and I remember finally he said, Buske, what are you doing? And I said, sir, I don’t have any idea. So he said, well, you might as well come up here and sit with me then, because you’re not doing any good down there. So the whole operation went—while I was on duty, I was watching with the officer-in-charge, doing nothing, really. And the actual—I didn’t know it at the time, but a plane flew right over us, and nobody knew who it was. Needless to say, that didn’t bode well with the higher-ups, wherever they were. So I think it was about a week or two later, the orders came down later from higher up that we were going to have this exercise again, and this time we would get it right. And everybody knew what that meant. If it happened again, heads were going to roll. So they held it again in about a month, and it worked like clockwork, supposedly. Nothing got within about 800 miles of us, and everybody did their job. They knew what to do and they did it. But those two, I remember that, especially that Operation Crackerjack. We just laughed about it. Because we knew it wasn’t working well. When people were looking up and saying, what is that up there? Well, it’s an airplane, but we don’t know whose it is! Whether it’s ours or the enemy. That wasn’t supposed to work that way. No. But anyway, it was mostly just a job and you did what you were supposed to do, and tried not to be noticed, really. They always said if you were real successful, when you got out of the Army, one of your commanding officers was still saying, hey, you. He didn’t know your name. They’d say, if that was the case, then you were successful. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long were you in the Army, total? Buske: Just two years. Franklin: Oh, just two years. So Camp Hanford, then, was the majority of your— Buske: Yeah. Franklin: --of your service. Buske: Absolutely. Franklin: And when did you leave? Do you remember when you left? Buske: When I left Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, it was November 28, 1956. Franklin: And where did you go? Buske: Back to Stockton, Illinois. Franklin: And what did you move on to? Buske: For career? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, I got back home and I had been a tool and die maker apprentice when I first went into the military. So I went back to work with the same company, and finished my apprenticeship and became a journeyman tool and die maker. And ended up working for that same company for over 41 years. Franklin: Wow. Buske: It was good duty. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Let’s see here. A lot of my standard questions for working at Hanford don’t always apply here, so let me see what does fit in. What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work here at Camp Hanford? Buske: Well, I think we tried to make light of what our responsibilities were. But I know that, in my case, and in almost everybody else that I knew, we were really concerned about what might happen and how to help us defend our country. And, maybe it sounds hokey, but we really believed in what we were doing. We weren’t out to cause trouble, but we didn’t want it to happen to us, either. Korea hadn’t been over with all that long, and there were a lot of combat veterans in our ranks at that time. They were really held in high regard, because they had been through a lot more than we ever would. We gave them credit for that. I remember one of our staff car drivers was talking to me one morning and I don’t know how we even got started on it, but he told how they were overrun one night in Korea. He held up his shirt and showed me. He had a cigar—scar on his stomach in front and another one, he turned around, in the back, where he had been bayoneted in his sleeping bag. The only way he survived was by playing dead. You know, when you hear some things like that firsthand—you know, these are people that could very easily not be here. Our motor sergeant was a real conscientious, very nice guy. World War II veteran. There was a lot of them in our outfit, too. He told me one time about in Europe, he was right on the frontline and they were in a town in, I think, either France or Germany. Anyway, there was a lot of street fighting going on. He got to a corner and when he came to the corner, went around it, right on the other side was a German soldier, just like him. Each one went for their weapon, and he got his first. He shot the other guy and killed him. Of course they had to always search them for any valuable papers or anything like that. He was telling this pretty matter-of-fact-ly, and he said, I found out he was almost identical in age, he had a wife and the same number of kids, boys and girls. He said, it was just weird how we were the same. And it’s just because I was just a little bit quicker it was he that went down and not me. I never forgot that. I thought, how things turn out. A lot of times it’s just a reflex. He wasn’t real proud of what he had done, but he didn’t have any choice. It was either him or me. Anybody that has an experience like that has to be looked up to, I think. Franklin: Yeah, I agree. What would you like future generations to know about working at Camp Hanford, being in the Army, during the Cold War? Buske: Hmm. Well, I think a lot of us wondered sometimes what the reason was for some of the orders that came down. Whether it was just to make work kind of a thing, or whether it really served a purpose. We may have wondered or even doubted, but we did it anyway, because we knew that we weren’t the ones in charge. Somebody else was calling the shots, and when you were told to do something, you tried to do it. I remember, the first Fourth of July I spent out there, there was three of us that had gotten there about the same time. Fourth of July in ’55 was a pretty long weekend, like three or four days, a holiday. Our motor officer, who was a crusty old—oh—warrant officer. He was really a nice guy, but he liked to pick on new people. He told us when they left—when he left to go back for home here in Richland for the weekend, that they’d like all the fence posts around the motor pool facility whitewashed by the time he got back. There was an awful lot of fence posts that were kind of like railroad ties, so they had to be whitewashed on all four sides. I remember, it was beastly hot. And nobody else around to tell us that we had to do this, really. But he left those words, the orders, so we did it. And when he got back at the end of the holiday weekend, he was almost aghast that we had gotten it all done. It paid off supremely, because we were on real good terms with him after that for the rest of my duty. And that’s how I made dispatcher of the battalion’s motor pool. That’s good duty. You got things pretty much easy after that. Franklin: Yeah. Buske: But I mean, we could’ve found a lot of ways and reasons why we didn’t get it done. But we never thought about that. He gave us a job to do and we did it. Franklin: Great, well, Jim, is there anything else you wanted to say about your experiences at Camp Hanford? Buske: Well, Robert, it’s been a long time ago, and there aren’t too many things that I can remember that the locals knew anything about. Because I guess I’ve just outlived them. But I remembered how well we got along with the people here. I didn’t get involved too often with church, but it was—every time I went, I was really welcomed and we never took advantage of them, and they never chastised us. I think they kind of realized that we were there for a reason, and it wasn’t because that’s where we necessarily wanted to be, but that we were sent there. So you do the best you can with what you got. But I think the area was really—it was quite an experience. Franklin: In what way? Buske: Well, you realize you have responsibilities, and I guess you grow up a little bit. You find out that getting away with something really doesn’t solve much. It seemed like it’s always lurking there in the background somewhere. But I don’t know, it was just maturing deal. I got to play a lot of softball and we played in a town league in 1956. We won about as many as we lost. But it was a lot of fun meeting the locals on the ball field. It was a good time. Franklin: Good. I do have one more question. When did you—so when you came out here, you just knew you were coming to Camp Hanford; you weren’t really sure what it is you were going out to protect. When did you learn what was being made out at Hanford and its connection to World War II and nuclear weapons? Buske: Wow. Well, I, for one, was here a while before I realized it was—actually, I think the whole facility then was kind of under the rule of the AEC. Those people didn’t fool around. We always recognized them, because they were the suit-and-tie people. But they were the police that really had a lid on things. And they always said that if you—we could have our civilian car out where I was stationed, but if you were in the car, like, from our unit, we could drive over to Othello on that dirt track road. And they said, don’t worry about if you have a breakdown, because you won’t be there very long until somebody will show up. That they had the eye-in-the-sky airplanes flying around a lot. As long as you were moving, they didn’t pay much attention. But if your vehicle stopped—and I don’t know this to be a fact, but—they said, you’d be noticed right away, and somebody would be out there wondering why you weren’t moving. So it was really kind of hush-hush. It just kind of soaked in on you, I think, really how important it was, what you were doing there. Pretty hard to put into words, but it was, you weren’t in a foxhole, but you were still kind of on the frontline. Franklin: Huh. I think that’s a really great way of explaining it. Buske: Well, oh, why, thank you. This is a new experience for me. Franklin: It is for most people. Well, Jim, thank you for coming down and sharing your experiences out at Camp Hanford with us. We don’t get a chance to interview too many people that were out there, because so many people like yourself who were stationed there and then moved away and didn’t come back. Unlike Hanford workers, many people came here, put down roots here. So I appreciate your information. That will really help us kind of reconstruct that camp which was torn down decades ago when all those sites were decommissioned, decades ago. Buske: One of the things that I did remember, and the standard procedure was, if you were going out to George Washington Way to 5th Group Headquarters and then went a little further to your left as you’re going that direction, you hit the main road, which I think maybe turns into 240 now. And you went out maybe three miles, something like that, which was where the barricade was. When we first were assigned here, we got a temporary barricade pass. Just a piece of paper, really. But you got that while you were being processed, they called it. We heard that we were being checked on back in our home towns, and were we subversive, and blah, blah, blah. Usually it took about a week or a little more, and then you got this permanent card, like a driver’s license, that sort of thing. But that was your barricade pass. And when you came in from the forward area, you were issued a barricade pass—your barricade pass, which is an ID card thing, at your own headquarters. And then when you got back in the rear, you turned that in to a quartermaster or somebody. He took your barricade pass and gave you bedding so you could make your own bed up. And when you got ready to go back into the forward area again, you turned in your bedding and you got your barricade pass back. They put you on a bus and you got out as far as the barricade and an MP came onboard the bus and checked everybody. Because your picture was on there and the whole thing. If you didn’t produce that barricade pass, you were put off the bus. Like I say, it was about three miles out in the desert. And I never knew of anybody that it happened to, but they claimed that somebody got put out the bus right there. And you get back out to headquarters the best way you can. But the situation really was, it didn’t happen twice. But it was really kind of a procedure. And we found out later that we had been checked back home. They had certain people that would ask about your character, who are you, blah, blah, blah. Franklin: Right, interview friends and family and probably even pastors and stuff like that. Buske: Yeah, it was a confidential clearance, they called it. It wasn’t “secret” or anything like that. It made you feel kind of a level above. You passed. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, like even a level above what the Army would’ve asked you for, yeah. Interesting. That’s really interesting. Tom, did you have any questions? Hungate: We haven’t heard a description of the installations. You said there were four missiles there. When were they installed, when were they removed, and what were they like? You mentioned doors opened. Franklin: Yeah, could you describe the installations, what you know about the missiles, when they were there and what they were like, what shape and size--? Buske: Okay. Well, actually, everything was there before I got here. But, like I say, each battery had four of these in-ground launchers, they called them, and they pointed straight up in the air when they were fully operational. Actually, I never got down into below-ground where the missiles were. There were four launchers per battery. So, if you figure with the four batteries, there’s 16 that were ready to go at any one time. And I remember seeing the TO&E, or Table of Operation and Equipment, for the whole battalion. They said at one time we had over a hundred Nike missiles capable of fire, reload, fire, reload. You know, I don’t know how long it took to reload, but it had to have been pretty fast. Yeah, I didn’t know much about any of that stuff when I got here. And I didn’t know much more after I left. Franklin: I know before the Nike missiles, there were anti-aircraft placements. Were those still in operation when you got here? Buske: Yes, they were. Franklin: And that was also part of the larger Camp Hanford. Buske: That’s right. That’s a good point. There were at least three 120-milimeter gun battalions and each one of those had different batteries of anti-aircraft capability. They would go down to, I think, White Sands, New Mexico or someplace for training to take their guns down there—and they were huge, by the way. 120-milimeter gun is a large weapon. And they would bring them back and then set them up and fire them to settle them in, they called it, to make sure that all their readings were correct and everything. And when they fired them, we could hear them, and you could almost count to ten, and way up there, all of the sudden you’d see a little puff of black smoke, like flak, you know. And I’ll tell you, it was up there a long ways. 120-milimeter could really get up there in altitude. Not as high as we could with our Nike, but they had a job to do to. Franklin: But they actually got to fire theirs off, though. Buske: Yeah, yeah. It was exciting for us, because we never got to fire our weapons. Franklin: Well, that’s probably for the best. Buske: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. The overall is pretty good. But it was real good duty, because, like I say, it was small and you knew the mess sergeant and he knew you. Franklin: Is this the first time you’ve been back to this area since you left in ’56? Buske: No, actually, it’s the second. Franklin: Okay. Buske: The first time, we actually went—it was before the state highway went through or anything. But we got out to where the headquarters were, and the way I could tell was—one thing that never changes out there is the horizon. I could look and I could remember seeing what the horizon looked like from a certain spot. And I found the spot, and it also had a few trees around it, which is kind of unusual, too. And I thought, well, boy, no way to really tell for sure, but I think this is where the motor pool was. I got to looking around, and everything was—you get that kind of a weird feeling, you know. Wife was standing there, and I said, I really get a feeling about this, and I’m going to pull some sand here a little bit and see if what I think is there is there. I dug down in the sand, oh, maybe six or eight inches, something like that, and I came to a concrete curb that was yellow on the top. And it was the top curb of my grease pit that I worked in and I had probably painted the top of that curb with yellow paint. This is probably, oh, at least 15, 20 years after I was there. But—oh, a funny thing, maybe as a final, but when I was in that grease pit—like I say, the Army said I was a mechanic, but I knew better. And I had a good buddy that had a truck. It was a civilian-type truck but it was a supply truck or something. He and I were talking one day and he said, my wife’s windshield wipers are not operating right. Do you suppose you could fix them? And I said, well, yeah. It’s kind of a challenge but I’ll have a look. They were vacuum wiper blades, so it can’t be too complicated. So he said, when can you do it? And I said, well, it’s getting to be late afternoon and I’m not busy. Let’s take it in there and have a look. So he drove it in and got it running and I started pulling hoses off to see if that was where the problem was, if the vacuum part was leaking or whatever you know. Well, anyway, I probably pulled off more hoses than I should and when I replaced them I didn’t replace them—well, anyway, it got so bad, his truck wouldn’t even run. By this time, it’s quitting time, and our motor officer—this crusty old warrant officer had a fetish about emptying out the building every evening, so it shows everything was done. Well, we had to push it out and push it back onto the deadline. Next morning, we came in and I went to one of the mechanics that was a real mechanic. He was a good friend, and I told him what had happened. I said, you suppose you could help me out? He said, oh, I don’t see any problem there. So he goes over and he starts monkeying around. And the truck wouldn’t run and he replaced this that and the other. Didn’t take him ten minutes and he had it running like a charm and the wipers were running like they should. And he said, well that’s great, thanks a lot, and off he went. It must’ve been a good week later, I was down the grease pit and all of the sudden, I could hear this cackling and giggling and tee-hee-ing and I remember looking up out of my grease pit and all I could see was legs outside the door. There were quite a few pair of legs out there. I thought, I don’t know what’s going on. But I came up out of the pit and walked out and looked and they’re all standing out there by my door, looking up and just laughing and giggling. So I went out there, and here’s the warrant officer and the motor sergeant, and they’re all looking up there. And I looked. The sign painter for our unit, who was pretty good at what he did, painted this nice, real big sign up there, over my door, said, Buske’s Bay, Drive ‘Em In, Tow ‘Em Out. Everybody was getting a kick out of that, so you can’t fight it. I started laughing, too. From there on, I really got along well with everybody. It was a nice experience. But I kept telling them, I am not a mechanic. They said I was, but I know better. That was a funny experience. Franklin: That is funny. Anything else, Tom? Well, Jim, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. Buske: Well, I appreciate the opportunity. When you mentioned this, it pleased me to be able to have a bit of nostalgia with you. Franklin: Oh, good. Buske: It’s fun to be able to reminisce. Franklin: Good, good. Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/ZetcgDDzSbA">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Camp Hanford Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-1956 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1956 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Buske Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nike-Zeus missile Military bases Description An account of the resource Jim Buske was stationed at the Camp Hanford U.S. Army base from 1954-1956. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/12/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7979506dcf39c0bb292c727b9f9b0e0b.JPG 2c7a6cf253f23a1ad1751be3abceed88 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dave Harvey Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Dave Harvey on February 21st, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Dave about his experiences working on the Hanford Site and helping to preserve the history of Hanford and the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Dave Harvey: David Harvey. H-A-R-V-E-Y. Franklin: And D-A-V-I-D? Harvey: Oh, yeah, D-A-V-I-D. Franklin: It’s okay. So, Dave, what is your background and how did you first come to Hanford? Harvey: Well, I got a degree--[LAUGHTER]—oh, gosh, many years ago—undergraduate degree in American history and government in 1970, back at a private university in New Jersey. And then went to—did various other occupations, but then decided to go to graduate school and came out here to Western Washington University in 1973 and was in history. At the end of my two years in grad school, they were just getting historic preservation kind of component. It was mainly just history, government, what-have-you, and the whole cultural resources management, historic preservation—I should call it occupation, for want for a better term—just got going. I mean, the National Historic Preservation Act wasn’t passed until 1966. So it was kind of like the archaeologists had been doing work on cultural resources, mainly—you know, just archaeological, like with the dams out here, with the construction of all the hydroelectric and irrigation water storage dams. So there was a lot of need for kind of emergency archaeology to document before those areas were going to be flooded. So they got into the cultural resources management game a lot earlier than historians, architectural historians, you know, landscape architects and what-have-you. So, initially, I would be on field crews with the archaeologists. In fact, I even went to an actual field school in France at one point. I had a lot of interests in archaeology and I got on some digs and so forth. But more and more, my interest and focus was on the built environment and dealing—especially out here in the Northwest, and of course Hanford’s a perfect example. You have this continuum. Besides the prehistory you have the early settlement and the agricultural landscapes. And everything is much more intact. There’s a lot of public land, so there’s a lot of opportunity to go out and document, because federal agencies are required, under National Historic Preservation Act, to—they’re supposed to be proactive to document. All the cultural resources, whether it’s prehistoric or on the built environment, you know, houses, cabins, agricultural remains, and landscape. It’s just really fascinating. So that’s another attraction for being out here in the Pacific Northwest. And after I got my master’s and then—boy, that was in 1975. Ever since, kind of went back and forth between the built environment and archaeology, but I would say the last 35 years has mainly been dealing with the built environment. Franklin: And when you say built environment, could you define that term for us? Harvey: It would be any aboveground structures. And that could be early settlement remains. You know, there’s that fine line. When you come to an old farmstead, homestead, and it’s dilapidated, let’s say there’s just remains. Well, you’re going to use archaeological, maybe, techniques as well. But essentially you can document it and do—go to the historic record to get your information. So it’s basically, you know, that’s the built environment. But it can be like the government homes in Richland. Let’s say you have over 3,000 government homes. That’s the built environment. And I had a lot of experience documenting those just here in Richland. But out at Hanford, once again, it’s also the industrial Cold War era, Manhattan Project era buildings, and what they call the recent past, which more and more is no longer recent. But at one point when I was working documenting out here for the Pacific Northwest National Lab—that’s what brought me over to the Mid-Columbia, to Richland back in 1993—you know, the Cold War era was basically just ended, and there was a big movement to document these properties before they disappeared. Because technology today—well, even back then, but much more so today—things change so rapidly that you’re going to lose these significant properties and so forth. Yeah. Franklin: Great. So then, the built environment can encompass anything from a single structure to an entire town or— Harvey: Yup. Franklin: Like the Alphabet Homes, to many even thousands of structures connected to a historical event or a historical period. Harvey: Mm-hm. Franklin: Right? Harvey: Correct. Franklin: Okay. So how did you get—why did PNNL bring you out, or why did you come out in ’93 to— Harvey: Well, I had been in Seattle. In fact, I had worked as kind of a consultant, freelance, like a lot of archaeologists had done for decades. But there was a need for historians, architectural historians, to document, as we were saying, about the built environment. So I had projects in Alaska, all over Washington, Oregon, California, and then I found out through the State Historic Preservation Office that the Department of Energy—well, actually Pacific Northwest National Lab, Battelle Memorial Institute that operates the lab—was looking for cultural resources specialists but more dealing with buildings and structures. Because they had archaeologists. This was in 1993, so I applied and my wife and I moved over from Seattle. Franklin: What attracted you about working on the built environment, architectural environment, in Hanford? Or in the Tri-Cities? Harvey: Well, initially, I don’t know if—I think I gained that appreciation after being here for a while. It sure was quite a transition, especially back in the 1990s. And you could talk to my wife about that. But seriously, it was quite different. I mean, I think today, it would be a much larger community and there’s a lot more things to offer. But at the time, it was quite different. All of the sudden, you’re out here in the shrub steppe environment, and I was so used to the [LAUGHTER] marine, wet environment of western Washington, western Oregon. So it took some transition, but I wouldn’t want to leave now. Franklin: Was it also a cultural or political transition, as well, coming from Seattle, doing cultural resources work there versus doing cultural resources work here? Harvey: Oh, yeah! Extremely. And I guess you could say, the Big Sky country. I should actually backtrack a little. One of my quarters when I was doing my masters at Western Washington was with the Bureau of Land Management in south central Montana, south of Billings. I was stationed out of Billings. So I did have some connection with that type of environment, with, you know, the arid west, so-called. But it was definitely a transition. It was a cultural and [LAUGHTER] political. It was just so different. But I think occupationally, you know, it’s—yeah, I think—well, actually, there had been times, like I even worked a project in central Oregon for a half a year back in the ‘80s, the 1980s, where it was kind of a shrub steppe—that was more of the high desert. So I kind of knew what I was getting into, but I think not so much about Hanford. That was a big transition. Yeah. Franklin: Had you heard about Hanford before you had accepted— Harvey: Yeah, and to be honest, I said, gosh, why would anybody want to live—[LAUGHTER] I’ll be honest, because after living in western Washington, it was—the transition—I didn’t appreciate at the time like I do now. And just the wide open spaces and the—I mean, and I’m also looking for personal reasons why we like it over here just from recreational—and so forth. Because we do a lot of hiking and bicycling and so forth. So, yeah, there was a lot of transition going on there. I’m glad we took it. Franklin: Good. What did you first start working on when you came in the early- or mid-‘90s for Battelle? What were some of your projects? Harvey: Well, it had to deal with kind of the Manhattan Project/Cold War era industrial properties. A lot of the concrete block buildings. And of course there’s a lot of prejudice against that, meaning, gosh, how are these significant? You get that question all the time. And of course, we’re looking at the unbelievable scientific contributions, what was going on in these properties during the Manhattan Project and early Cold War. And Hanford was one of the—produced over two-thirds of the plutonium for the country’s nuclear arsenal during the Manhattan Project/Cold War. And all these outbuildings and—I shouldn’t even say outbuildings. But it was kind of—we had to document them because the Department of Energy wanted to tear them down. A lot of them were contaminated, and so they—and part of the Tri-Party Agreement to clean up Hanford, there was this big movement—I think that’s why they needed somebody who had experience with the built environment—with building structures. And there was, I’ll have to admit, a steep learning curve, because I hadn’t worked, necessarily, with these type of buildings. But I caught up pretty quickly. And the scientific and technology, and the unbelievable challenges of what took place. I’m still learning to this day about the Manhattan Project and so forth. And now of course with the National Historic Park, it’s pretty fascinating, and just the contributions. Franklin: What kinds of resources did you use to document those industrial landscape? Harvey: Oh, boy. There were a lot of—a wealth of material, archival material, at the Department of Energy and the different contractors. It wasn’t just in one central location; they did have the central files. And that’s changed over the years, where you can get this material. Of course a lot more is available today than back in the ‘90s. And historic photos. And at that time, of course, you could talk to a lot of long—unfortunate—long-time residents and people that worked out there that unfortunately are no longer with us, but we got to talk to them. Especially a number of the early settlers or immediate descendants of the early settlers. And that was pretty fascinating. Franklin: So you were doing, then, the pre-’43 agricultural documentation as well as the Manhattan Project. Harvey: Yeah. I was remiss; I didn’t mention that. Yeah, and that was—I came kind of at the perfect time, because a number of these people unfortunately are no longer around. But we got to talk to them and their stories were documented, fortunately. Just the contributions. It was just—and that’s the whole part of the removal of over 1,500—it was more like 1,500 families, as well as the Wanapum Indians up at Priest Rapids. Just becoming exposed to this, it was really—I’d never—see, I wasn’t able to or wouldn’t have had the good fortune of being able to be exposed to that over—if we had stayed in Seattle. Yeah. Franklin: And so where—in the timeline of remediation or removal of the buildings, when did your work often happen? Was it right before the building had been— Harvey: Yup. Franklin: Was there ever an outcome where your work had revealed that a building was— Was there ever an outcome where your work may have changed the decision to remove or tear down a building? Harvey: Pretty much no, unfortunately. Most of the buildings since then have been removed. But we were able to document them and also get the artifacts. A lot of the industrial artifacts, we tagged and got them removed. Or if they were too large to remove or going to be too contaminated for storage, then we were able to document them. Photo and— Franklin: So you’re talking now about the Hanford Collection. Harvey: The Hanford Collection, which you’re in charge of. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So can you—what was your involvement with that? Were you there at the beginning of when that was being set up? Harvey: Yeah! Franklin: Okay, so can you tell me how that came to be, within the Department of Energy? So, politically and then what steps you took to document artifacts and bring them in? Harvey: Okay. And I don’t think I answered fully your original question. Franklin: Oh, sure, sorry. Harvey: Let me finish that. No, that’s good, that’s great. We documented the buildings, like you said, prior to being demolished. Because the ones that had been determined eligible—and a lot of them, you know, for the National Register of Historic Places, being federal facilities, this is a federal agency, Department of Energy, which is required under the National Historic Preservation Act. Because they—the Department of Energy, as a federal agency, was required to document and basically take into consideration any properties of what we call historic properties, properties that are listed or determined eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places. So they had to take into consideration that these properties—they could go ahead and remove them, demolish them, or modify them. But if they’re found eligible, and then— Now, fortunately we’ve been able to save B Reactor and a lot of the artifacts from that era from some of the other reactors ended up there. But of course that’s only one of the nine reactors. But on the others—so this all kind of all of the sudden there was a dilemma here, because you’re going to have to go through this extensive documentation process for each building, almost, or at least ones that have been determined eligible. So that’s—we got into the whole Programmatic Agreement where we had a group of buildings that we’ve—no longer eligible—or I should say we determined not eligible so we didn’t have to do much documentation, if at all. Others were eligible but not really significant. And then we had a third group, really significant that required more extensive documentation. That’s kind of in a general sense. So this Programmatic Agreement was with other contractors, other cultural resource management specialists. I won’t go into all that, but that was kind of signed, I think in 2002. A programmatic agreement with DOE and State of Historic Preservation Office. And that kind of streamlined the whole process. Now, as part of that, you had mentioned about the industrial artifacts. That was kind of an offshoot of that, because these are just as important sometimes as the buildings themselves. And it’s not—it could be signs, it could be instruments. It’s not necessarily just big pieces of industrial equipment. So anyway, those—then we would go in and tag these. So it kind of made us aware—at least, at the moment, don’t touch these, and then we’ll decide later on, if they end up being contaminated or if DOE can’t remove them, then at least we’ve made record of it. Franklin: Right, right. How many buildings do you estimate that you were able to perform this documentation of, and/or the artifact removal? Harvey: Well, see, there were a thousand buildings that ended up—but because there was this streamlined, you know, the Programmatic Agreement, we didn’t have to go to each building. We went to a lot of them. But we—some had already been documented, some—if it was just kind of a generic—let’s say Butler Building, corrugated metal or something like that, might have to just take a picture or something like that. And we did visit—like I said, there was other cultural resources specialists for the other contractors: Bechtel—well, there was Westinghouse and then Bechtel—and so there were a number of other contractors. And then part of the—I would say, the largest productive outcome of this whole effort was this book, The Manhattan Project Cold War Era Facilities, that kind of outlines and chapters on each significant--whether it’s military operations, the reactors, the chemical separation plants in the 200 Area; the 100 Area, you have the fuel manufacturing. There were all these chapters done on Site security, and research and development. And there was—I think Tom Marceau was the lead editor, I think it was with Bechtel, and there were about seven or eight of us were coauthors of several of the chapters. Franklin: Okay, thank you. Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: Did you directly participate in the efforts to—any efforts at B Reactor—because I know it was a Historic Engineering Landmark, right, and then it’s gained kind of more recognition— Harvey: It became a National Historic Landmark. Franklin: National Historic Landmark. Did you participate in any of that? Harvey: Some of the research. There was a whole—you know, B Reactor Museum Association, which I’m a member. There were a lot of other people that did a lot more work than I did out there. There was a lot of work to do out here. [LAUGHTER] And that was a great success. We’re also looking to kind of preserve landscapes within the new national historic park—Manhattan Project National Historic Park. So we did some background research that have led to realizing—like out at the White Bluffs-Hanford town sites, it’s a larger area of significance than what’s actually strictly in the park. Franklin: Right, because the park, as of right now, just includes the landmark and not any—not actually any feet around it. Harvey: Right, and those are the pre-’43, like we were talking about. And you have canals—irrigation ditches, you have remains from the ranches and farmsteads and actually the foundations for some of the buildings. But it goes way beyond the actual little communities of White Bluffs and Hanford. And then there’s a pumping plant out there on the Columbia. So it’s—yeah—and that’s what we’re kind of—that’s what we’re facing now. There is, I guess, I think a lot of agreement, especially Department of Energy, that that boundary should be expanded, when we’re telling the story out there. Franklin: Are there any buildings that were remediated that you really wished had been saved for this kind of—something like a public park or for the public to view? Harvey: Yeah. We don’t have anything in the 300 Area, which was the fuel manufacturing. That’s too bad, because you had Building 313, Building 314 and a lot of other labs and so forth. They were all just—they’ve all been removed. Franklin: Why are those important? Harvey: Well, that’s where some of the first fuel was manufactured. Before the cores were made into what they call slugs, and then they were transported up to the 100 Area reactors for irradiation. So they were both built in ’43, ’44. So, yeah, it’s kind of too bad that one of those at least wasn’t preserved. But they were pretty contaminated in the walls, underground. But at least we did get to document them. But there’s not much left in the 300 Area from the era, yeah. Franklin: Are there any buildings that are still up that have been selected for remediation or are in the remediation pipeline that you wish were saved for their historic value? Harvey: Well, T Plant has an active—is part of the park, but that has an active role right now in cleanup out there in the 200 Area, chemical separation plant. I think that’s what your question is, right? Something that’s still standing now? Franklin: Yeah. Harvey: Well, some of the reactors are left, but they’re going to be mothballed except for B Reactor. I think the issue is more that we’ve got about five, six pre-’43 buildings. Now, the bank is pretty much going to be stabilized, the White Bluffs bank, First Bank of White Bluffs. But we do have some—the Hanford High School and Bruggeman’s warehouse and the Allard pumping plant, you know, they could use a lot of work. So at least efforts should go, because we really need to tell that story about the people that were sacrificed—they had to remove for the war effort. Some of the sons that were overseas and they’d gotten note from the parents that they were no longer here, because we had to leave. Yeah, so that will tell that side of the story, which is really important. Franklin: What about any other reactors that you feel are historic—because I know some reactors are kind of very similar to others, right, like D and F are pretty similar to B. But what about N or FFTF? Harvey: Well, N would’ve been really decent. That was the last one, and it was the dual generation, could produce steam for electricity as well as plutonium. That would’ve been—yeah, I would have liked to see that one preserved. Because that was the one where President Kennedy came out in ’63 and dedicated. And then I think you had just mentioned the Fast Flux Test Facility. And that was completed in 1982 and that was determined eligible in the ‘90s. Once again, the recent past. Franklin: Breaking that 50-year—so-called 50-year rule. Harvey: Yeah, because it was found to be of exceptional importance. Franklin: And why was that? Harvey: It was probably the cornerstone of the peaceful usage of nuclear energy, because it was the breeder reactor program, that I think began in the Carter Administration for commercial fuels. It was pretty significant for that. I mean, that’s why it was determined eligible. And we went in—a lot of these, I remember we went in and took videos and so forth. We have extensive documentation as well as photo documentation. But—and to be honest, I haven’t been out there for a good while. I believe some of it’s still standing. But I don’t know—there aren’t any plans to stabilize it. I think it’s going to eventually be totally demolished. Franklin: Yeah, I believe so, too. How long did you work doing cultural resource work at Hanford PNNL? Harvey: Through 2005. Franklin: Okay. Harvey: And then I went into—I had my own consulting firm for a couple years. I actually worked in Katrina for four months for FEMA. So just—in fact, I remember coming back here in 2006 and helping, I think it was Washington Closure at the time, to document more, or finalize the artifacts. What was going to be preserved or—and then we kind of were eliminating, once again, the artifacts that were either too contaminated or too large to preserve. So I had some work on that. And then I went with an environmental consulting firm in 2007, oh, through 2013, 2014, I guess. And since then, I’ve been pretty much on my own again, at my own consulting firm. Franklin: And are you still working on Hanford-related projects? Harvey: Yeah, in fact I have a contract with Battelle, actually through another environmental consulting firm that has a kind of a master services agreement with Battelle. So through that kind of agency or—I was able to get this job with Battelle. And it’s good, because there’s several properties on the Battelle campus that they want to document—they wanted to do this Section 106, National Historic Preservation action compliance work. And the main campus, which is a perfect example of mid-century modernism, I’m working on right now. Another facility in the process of wanting to demolish, so I did the—basically, guiding them with their cultural resource compliance regulations that they have to comply with. Franklin: Which facility is this? Harvey: That’s the research technology lab, the RTL. Franklin: Ah, that’s right. That’s the one you contacted me on. Harvey: Yeah, it used to be the Donald W. Douglas Labs, constructed in 1996. Douglas United—I should say the Douglas Aircraft Company and United Nuclear kind of did a joined venture and constructed that. They had it until ’71 and then Exxon purchased it and then Battelle purchased it in 1982. It was to do a lot of work on fuel fabrication, the technologies behind that research. Franklin: And so how—do you think that mid-century modern, kind of corporate campus environment will be maintained there at Battelle, or— Harvey: That’s the aim. I think they would like me to write up a management plan, kind of a maintenance guide on. You know, because they’re going to be kind of a repetitive type of maintenance things. They don’t want to have to come back every time to the State Historic Preservation Office or go through the whole process. So if we come up with a guide where certain activities that they have to maintain, whether it’s keeping the existing color palette or replace-in-kind, then they don’t have to come back to go through the whole compliance thing. So we—they realized that it is eligible. It hasn’t been formally determined eligible for the register and now I’m going through that process now. The RTL was found to be an example of commercial modernism. It was constructed, like I said in—actually, it was completed in ’67. So we’re in the process of mitigating that now. And with a memorandum of agreement outlining the stipulations to mitigate the property before it’s—Battelle sells it and/or demolishes it. Yeah. Franklin: Do you find a resistance in some circles to preservation of the modern or buildings constructed in the ‘60s and on, especially associated with the modernist style of architecture? Harvey: Oh, yeah! I mean, when I came on with Battelle in ’93, it was even more resistance. Frankly, even with the Department of Energy, which today is not resistant. But, yeah, there’s—we used to call it the giggle factor. [LAUGHTER] They’d say, you want to preserve that? Is that eligible? Why do you have to look at it? And then sometimes with corrugated metal buildings, we might have to go through the process to at least do minimal documentation. And there could have been, you know, with the National Register of Historic Places, under criterion A, if something of significant event or research occurred in that facility, that kind of outweighs, let’s say, its commonness or common construction, which is actually under criterion C. And that can happen. Franklin: Sure. Harvey: But it has to be integrity. Property does have to maintain its physical integrity to be eligible as well. But yeah there’s always resistance, and we find in the long run, if you comply, it’s a lot more inexpensive, you know, less headaches. Franklin: And it’s also more—correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s also more inexpensive to retrofit an existing building, usually, than it is to tear down a building and then move the materials out and then bring in new materials and construct something. Harvey: In most cases. Now, when you have contamination, radiological contamination, there are issues that certain buildings may be—current owners can’t find a new buyer who could retrofit it possibly, because all the sudden they’re inheriting this type of legacy. [LAUGHTER] You know. So that—and we faced that out at Hanford all the time. In some cases, it’s legitimate, and in some cases, it’s just a way—they want to demolish it and move on. Franklin: Well, I think that—would you say that the PFP is a good example of that, perhaps a building—Plutonium Finishing Plant—perhaps a building that is of exceptional significance, but is too contaminated to preserve in the traditional sense of preservation? Harvey: Oh, right. Yeah, we did document as much as we could, but we couldn’t get into certain areas when we were inside. But we did take a lot of pictures of the gloveboxes and the fascinating technology that went on there. Yeah, in that case—I mean, a lot of legitimate concerns. And I think in many cases, in a lot of the buildings and structures like out in the 300 Area, it was underneath the facilities, there was a lot of—in the pipes, there was a lot of contamination. There wasn’t any fear of us walking inside in street clothes to document it. Franklin: Interesting. Can you tell me about your involvement in documenting the Alphabet Houses of Richland? Harvey: Yeah, we—in fact, I live in a Q house. Constructed [LAUGHTER] in 19— Franklin: Did you move into an Alphabet House shortly after you—when you arrived in Richland? Harvey: Yeah, in 1993, we moved into a B duplex, down by Jefferson Park by Jefferson Elementary School. Those were constructed during the Manhattan Project from ’43 to ’45. And then a year later we purchased—you know, we were renting—we purchased a Q house up further north. I guess you’d say kind of the northeast extension of what we call the Government Home district, just south of Newcomer on Harris, and that was constructed in ’48, the whole neighborhood: Harris, Hetrick and Davison, that neighborhood there. So that’s when I became fascinated, what are these government homes? Alphabet Homes. And I did a lot of reading, and then in 1995, there was a history conference here. A friend of mine who’s an architectural historian, a colleague in Seattle, she grew up here over on Horn, just a few blocks from where my wife and I are living now on Harris. And at the time, she came over and her parents were still alive. So we decided to coauthor a paper on just the government home, focusing mainly on the Manhattan Project when Albin Pehrson, the architect that DuPont hired to kind of design—he’d had a lot of experience in some federal housing projects back in the ‘30s, but he also was one of the architects from the Davenport Hotel. He was out of Spokane. He had kind of a varied resume, so to speak, work history. So it was fascinating, the struggles that he had with the Corps who wanted just the minimal—very minimal. People think—actually our architecture style is called minimal traditional style. There are some classical elements to—architectural elements to the Q and R and S houses and so forth, and the M houses. But the Corps really didn’t—I mean, they would have just as soon had everybody live in barracks. And Du— Franklin: Well, and I think the As—is the A the two-story duplex? Harvey: Yes. Franklin: I think the As especially reflect that stripped-down, very basic— Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: --housing with very little ornamentation. Harvey: Oh, I know! And they’re even—the Qs and Rs—of course the S is two-story, has a little more features, architectural detailing. But—so that really got me going, doing this paper, and did kind of a follow-up then on the late ‘40s. And then you’re getting into more of the suburban ranch-style houses with the later Alphabet homes: the Ts, U, V and so forth. So it’s kind of interesting to see how the town did change and adapted more to suburban tastes as we get into the postwar period. You know, garages were built; no longer had the car compounds where people had shared parking, off the street but behind. And you used to be—access for service vehicles—delivery vehicles in the back. But now everybody has fences and so forth. You can still see places that have those car compounds, that still exist in some of the government home areas. So that’s kind of my introduction to the government homes. Since then—you know, of course there have been a lot of tours. CREHST—the CREHST Museum led tours for a while, and there’s other people involved. In fact, I think this month—next month in March, there’s going to be a tour of one of the government homes. Franklin: Were you involved at the CREHST Museum with the tours? Harvey: Well, the individual, Richard Nordgren, he does a lot. He and I talked extensively, and I gave him some information. Because I learned a lot from him as well. No, I never was actually part of the tours. I’ve given kind of informal—and then all this kind of led to the establishment of the National Register Historic District for the Gold Coast—it’s Gold Coast Historic District, which is about 200 homes. Does not include my neighborhood, because a lot of the houses across the street have been changed for people wanting better views of the Columbia River. Because I’m across—I’m on the west side— Franklin: That also, though, doesn’t include, I’ve noticed, some of the—how do I put this—some of the more blue collar homes, like the duplexes, the As and Bs, but also the—I live in a prefab, a two-bedroom prefab which was brought in kind of against Pehrson’s wishes— Harvey: Oh, right, about 1,800 of them, I think, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, and they were used primarily more for blue collar workers than white— Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: So I’ve noticed even there in the historical record there’s more of a focus on these kind of—the upper end of the Alphabet Houses. Harvey: Right well, see, I think initially Pehrson wanted a mixture of management and operation employees who lived there, involved in the operation. But what happened was the ones that were closed to the river, and that’s how they got the name Gold Coast, because the management personnel, the upper end, during the—well, in this case it would be when some of the homes just at the end of the war or postwar, they wanted these preferred locations. So, Pehrson’s kind of utopian view, mixture, didn’t really hold much water for long. [LAUGHTER] There was a mixture of housing types, but I think in the long run, it didn’t bear that much—he wasn’t able to keep that intact. And what happened after the war, of course, and then with our neighborhood, you got a lot of the professional occupation, the doctors and dentists moved in. And that’s another reason it was called the Gold Coast. And for the area just south of where we are. And now, to answer your question, yes, because a lot of the more blue collar were more in the central part and southwest. I guess we had to pick an area where you had to have at least 60% intact of what we call contributing. There was a lot of leeway: you can replace the windows, but you had to keep the dimensions. Because our house is pretty intact. We have all the original dimensions. We have different window material. So there was kind of that, and I think we ended up about 65% of the 200-plus buildings were found to be contributing. So, like I said, you usually have to have at least 60 in district. Franklin: Did you work on that nomination? Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. So how did you—did you survey each house? Harvey: Well, we had—a lot of volunteers went out. We took pictures of every home. In fact, it was all over the city, not just what became the Gold Coast. But I helped write up the context, the historic context, and reviewed the statement of significance. I mean, a city—there were a lot of people involved. So I kind of assisted on that. Franklin: Did you find the homeowners to be pretty amenable to the effort to list on the national register? Harvey: Yeah, because, well, you see, national register’s more of an honorary. Unless they were going to use some type of government funds for restoration of their homes. Then they have to go through Secretary of the Interior guidelines for architectural detailing and documentation and so forth. To keep within certain attributes, to keep the original architectural integrity as much as possible. But otherwise, it’s mainly honorary. There aren’t that many funds available now. But it also—it’s mainly like if the federal government wanted to come and put a highway through or something. Then, if it’s a historic district like that, then they have to take into consideration, hey, this is a national registered district. Now, local landmarks would have a lot more teeth, like you have in the city of Seattle, you have a lot of neighborhoods that are historic districts that are landmarks. That’s a lot more stringent. And Portland—I mean there’s a lot of communities. Spokane would be the nearest to us. Well, I shouldn’t even say that. I think maybe Walla Walla and Ellensburg. And you can see economic revitalization goes hand-in-hand with—all of the sudden people take pride in, they’ve got a historic home. Now, we did a survey—I remember, we had a public meeting with the State Historic Preservation Office, we had the city, and I would say 85% were not in favor of a local landmarks ordinance. They liked the idea of a national registered district because it was honorary. But basically if you have a house in there, you can change it right now. The chance of it ever getting de-listed, someone would actually have to make an attempt to contact the keeper of the register or the State Historic Preservation Office— Franklin: And change a bunch of houses—change enough houses to—it would actually have to be a concerted effort— Harvey: Yeah, and to actually get it de-listed. Now, who knows, maybe in the future there’s enough chance—now some people, I have noticed, though, have tried to keep the style of homes that are in the Gold Coast District, so that’s good. Franklin: So when you were talking about local listing, is that the same as a certified local government? Harvey: No, that’s—CLG—there’s a lot of benefits to be a CLG—Kennewick is—because they get these grants, block grants, to restore—maybe take off the exterior corrugated metal that was really popular to put on nice brick facades—you know, this was a popular thing back in the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s. And now they got to—and if you go on through downtown Kennewick, it’s an amazing success story. Franklin: Right, where a lot of that restoration has happened down there. Harvey: Restoration—and you have to follow Section 106 guidelines and Secretary of the Interior guidelines. And I was on the design review board for about five years. So that would be the benefit of being a Certified Local Government. And you have to maintain historic register of properties and so forth, yeah. So that’s different, yeah. Franklin: Did you find that, overall, the people that—when you were working on the national register, the people who lived there in the Alphabet Homes knew and appreciated the history of the Alphabet Home and generally wanted to—wanted to preserve that kind of history? Harvey: Yeah, I think most people even today. I’m trying to think the date when this happened. I think, gosh, it must have been at least ten years ago. Yeah, yeah. We had the State Historic Preservation come over for a meeting and I was on the State Advisory Council on Historic Preservation at the time. So we had them come over and there was a public—we had our public meeting which included the Gold Coast. Yeah, I think there is a lot of—the level of government, they came around. [LAUGHTER] The city government. Franklin: What about the neighborhoods that have traditionally been more renters or lower income, like a lot of the neighborhoods—thinking about where I live in more central Richland that is mostly As and Bs and then prefabs. Harvey: Right. Franklin: I’m wondering—did you—was there ever any surveys made of those? Harvey: Mm-hm. Franklin: Do you think they have a—do you think there’s a historic district to be made there, or there’s enough that it has historic integrity? Harvey: Well, I think we did look at some other areas of the city but that didn’t reach that 60% plateau. And that’s why we picked kind of the area—and then we had kind of that whole theme, that so-called Gold Coast theme. But there are a lot of other cities, communities, across the country where you have so-called blue collar neighborhood or industrial neighborhoods or neighborhoods in transition from industrial—now maybe people coming in and restoring the lofts and so forth, where you do have a lot of pride in that. And you have like automobile rows—they’re looking at Columbia Drive over in Kennewick as part of that. So I think you could still— Franklin: That’s the old state highway, right? Harvey: Pardon? Franklin: That’s the old state highway, Columbia Drive? Harvey: No, that’s the one through the park. This would be—maybe it’s not Columbia Drive is not the right term. It’s just adjacent to the downtown Kennewick, the historic downtown Kennewick partnership. I thought that was Columbian Drive, but-- Franklin: I could be wrong. Harvey: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: You’ve lived here a lot longer than I have. Harvey: [LAUGHTER] But they have a so-called automobile row or stretch, so they’re trying to appeal to that and put in signage that’s more kind of complementary to that era. But I think there are areas all across the country where you have the so-called blue collar, but you might have a higher degree of rentals. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be maintained, but in some places they’re not, so-- Franklin: Sure, oh, and, well, that’s just-- Harvey: Probably, I mean your neighborhood. Franklin: That’s part of the economics of the people that own them versus the people that live in them. If you rent, you have less impetus to do a lot of home improvement. If you’re looking at it as a money-making property, you have less impetus to invest in that thing long-term for its aesthetics and its historical integrity. Harvey: Yeah, that is definitely true. Now, of course if you get into apartment buildings—yeah, that’s different. And you have those in central Richland, in some communities, we have a large apartment building could be eligible for the register, and it’s still all renters in those buildings. Franklin: Sure, yeah. Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Ah. Sorry, I’m trying to think. We’ve covered a lot. Harvey: Yeah, yeah, this has been great. Franklin: So what do you currently—so, right now you said you’re currently working on the Battelle campus. Harvey: Right. Franklin: Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? As it relates to Hanford history or Tri-Cities history? Harvey: Well, the more recent development, when President Obama signed the establishment for the Manhattan Project National Historic Park which takes in Manhattan Project properties here and the pre-’43, as we mentioned, as well as selective properties in Los Alamos and Oak Ridge. And I got to—I was chosen with Tom Marceau here at Hanford, both of us went back to Washington, DC for the Scholars’ Forum. Which was real big—and you had scholars and people working in cultural resources, historic preservation, at all three sites there as well and of course Department of Energy— Franklin: Who else was a part of that? Harvey: And the National Parks Service. Excuse me? Franklin: Sorry, who else was a part of that forum? Harvey: Oh, gosh. [LAUGHTER] Trying to think of something—the names—the Atomic Foundation, Cindy— Franklin: Cindy Kelly. Harvey: Cindy Kelly. Because she worked here for a number of years, both with one of the contractors and with the Department of Energy. So she’s been very active with the Atomic Heritage Foundation in DC. And, oh, Ellen—Ellen’s last name—she’s out of Los Alamos. Ellen McGehee, she was there from Los Alamos. The Oak Ridge folks, I did not know as well. Franklin: Were there anybody who had authored any works on Hanford—Bruce Hedley or John Finley? Harvey: Yeah, thank you. In fact, John Finley and Bruce Hedley, both from University of Washington were there. They actually were the ones that set up—they commented—they were kind of the commenter on my presentation back in 1995 when we did the government homes. So that’s when I first met them. And then John—they both have written a number of books on the Atomic Frontier, the Atomic West and Hanford. Excellent books. Franklin: What about—was Kate Brown a part of that? Harvey: And Kate Brown was there. I’m glad you keep mentioning these names because—but also we were expecting the author—he wrote little landmark books on the Manhattan Project and the building of the bomb. Franklin: Brian Sanger? Harvey: Well, there was Sanger. He wasn’t there, but he was supposed to be. But there was another gentlemen—ah, can’t think of the name. You keep telling me these names and I’ll remember. But—and then there was the Park Service, a member of the-- Franklin: Who chose the people to be present at this Scholars’ Forum? Harvey: Well, I think each of the three communities submitted names. Franklin: Okay. Harvey: Colleen French with the Department of Energy submitted Tom’s name and myself, and we were accepted. Franklin: Oh, great. Because I’m just kind of—you know—there’s some people that have renown or certain reputations here, and Kate Brown’s is often a name that’s used—doesn’t always have polite adjectives coming after her name is mentioned or her book is mentioned. So I was kind of curious if you knew how she became involved with that forum. Harvey: No. Franklin: Or if there was any kind of cross-currents or anything—any kind of—how were the proceedings of the forum? Harvey: Oh, I was going to say—there was—I mean, we looked at it as the National Historic Park, there’s many stories to tell in the Park Service. Some people wanted it to be a celebratory-type thing. You know, we built the bomb and helped end World War II. And others saying, you know, no, it should be—it’s more of a commemoration. Let—the Park Service is good at establishing the parameter, the context, and then the visitors make that decision. There’s an internment camp—in fact, this was just the 75th anniversary of the internment of Japanese Americans, and there’s an internment camp in eastern California, near Bishop, I believe. And once again, that’s kind of—they’re telling the story that some might say was not a most glamorous part of American history. Franklin: Sure. Harvey: But we’re showing it. And when we talk about Monticello, we talk about the slaves. So the Park Service is really good. And that’s kind of—we struggled with that kind of—the type of themes that we should be—how the Park Service should be telling the story. Franklin: Can I ask how you personally came down on that issue, whether the park should be one that’s more celebratory or— Harvey: No, I— Franklin: Or one that’s— Harvey: I think just a commemoration. I think each—you know, it’s a lot of significance. We all know about the negative aspect of the Atomic Age, but it is one of the most significant events of the 20th century, by far. And it’s had great technological benefits. It also led to a Cold War and now—which [LAUGHTER] is still—with the spreading of nuclear arms is one of the—oh, I would say, one of the most dangerous things occurring in international politics. Franklin: Yes. Harvey: And as well as the contamination aspects, too. Of cleaning up the legacy. Franklin: Of course, which is still ongoing. Harvey: Which is here at Hanford. But at other places, too. You realize you had workers in a lot of Manhattan Project, early Cold War facilities that all of the sudden they’re realizing—Department of Energy—wait a minute, these people were also, I guess you could say fighting in the Cold War. And now you know, they didn’t have any protections at the time, and are we going to care for these people? Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Right I’d like to ask you something that might be controversial, and if you don’t want to answer— Harvey: Okay. Franklin: I’m fine with that. But, this is a question I don’t have—really feel like I can ask very often. There’s a lot of rhetoric, especially here, that—often-repeated rhetoric that dropping the bomb was necessary to ending World War II. However, most historians agree that dropping the bomb was not necessary to avoid the invasion of Japan; in fact, the Japanese had wanted surrender, were willing to agree to let the emperor abdicate as long as we wouldn’t kill the emperor, and that the bomb was dropped to intimidate the Soviets into more concessions in Eastern Europe. But Truman, over the course of his life, inflated the number of American lives that the bomb would save, and he didn’t even mention it saving lives until 18 months after the bomb was dropped. So with that in mind, do you agree or disagree with the statement that dropping the bomb— Harvey: Well, I see both sides. I mean, you talk to people whose sons were onboard ships going to Japan, ready for the invasion. And so it might be hard to convince that family [LAUGHTER] that the bomb wasn’t a good thing. Also, supposedly—I can’t remember the number we had—50,000 soldiers that were prisoners of war. Supposedly they were all going to be—if we invaded the mainland, they were all going to be killed. And so you hear that, and you say, well, it was a good thing. And also, but at the same time, you do a lot—especially Leslie Groves and others figured, oh, the expense was unbelievable expense at the time. And to justify, maybe we needed to drop this bomb, and quickly, before there was peace. And then I’ve heard about Truman, 18 months later, to kind of more justify. And there was a lot of cover-up on the after-effects of nuclear fallout, for want of a better term, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for the people that were exposed to it, and generations after that. There was kind of a lot of hush-hush. I mean, obviously, the word got out. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of hard to hide that. Harvey: Yeah, in fact, I went to the signing when we were back for the Scholars’ Forum back in DC, and Sally Jewell, who was the Secretary of the Interior at the time, I think her mom was one of the first nurses that went over there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Harvey: Yeah. So where I come around personally—I know General Eisenhower (who became President Eisenhower), he wanted to have a demonstration. Take contingent or—the government of Japan at the time, the military figure, take them out on a boat and show that okay, we’re going to drop—do the dropping of the bomb. Franklin: Kind of like a peaceful demonstration— Harvey: Right. Of course, at the time, we didn’t know what was going to happen after you drop it. It could have been a chain reaction, you know, you read a lot of—so, believe me, I’m not ducking the issue. I really—I can see both sides. A lot of historians feel it was necessary. But then you read the side that it was kind of to show the Soviets we meant business. And also to justify all the expense during the war. Franklin: Sure, it would’ve—could’ve been seen as this major boondoggle, had all this money been spent on something that had never been— Harvey: Well, right. Franklin: --never been used. Harvey: But I’ve heard Truman didn’t lose much sleep over his decision. Franklin: Sure, sure. Harvey: In fact, I think even Oppenheimer went and met with him, and I guess he—you know, it’s too bad what happened to Oppenheimer, his loss of his security clearance. Which eventually I think he got back later. But it was that whole kind of Red Scare during the ‘50s. Franklin: Yeah. Well, thanks, Dave. I guess what I’m hearing from you is that it’s complicated. Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: Which I think like any good historical issue worth discussing, we often have to leave it with, well, it’s complicated. Harvey: Well, I’d like to actually— Franklin: There’s no easy line. Harvey: --to do more research on it, personally. That’s why this profession’s great. I tell my wife I learn something new everyday, not necessarily just in my profession, either, but even so. You can say that about many professions, but being in the history and architectural history field, just pick up something new to read everyday or research angle. Even stuff that I’m doing now, I’m learning more about the history of the area. Franklin: Well, you know, Dave, thank you for all of your efforts in preserving the history of Hanford. Harvey: Well, thank you. Franklin: And I think we’re all excited to see—the national park coming in really is a game-changer in a lot of aspects, bringing in a lot of legitimacy. And we’re all very excited to see where that goes and hopefully the park boundaries will increase and it’ll really get kind of—you know, the park service will have that space to tell that kind of complicated story— Harvey: Well, you know, it’s the heritage tourism. It’s a boon. That’s why there’s so much support—bipartisan support throughout the state, not just here. But I think—and there’s that Atomic Trail, where people go visit these sites now. It’s— Franklin: We found something that democrats and republicans can agree on. [LAUGHTER] Harvey: Yes, one of the few things. Franklin: Well thank you so much, Dave. Harvey: Thanks, Robert. Franklin: Yeah, my pleasure. <a href="https://youtu.be/C9bRLrIWLWc">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Pacific Northwest National Laboratory B Reactor 200 Area 100 Area 300 Area 314 Building 313 Building T Plant D Reactor F Reactor N Reactor FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1993- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1993- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Harvey Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Historic preservation Nuclear reactors Conservation and restoration Description An account of the resource Dave Harvey moved to Richland, Washington in 1993 to work on historic preservation of the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/21/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Williams Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: We’re rolling. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John A. Williams on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Williams about his experiences working at the Hanford site and owning a winery in the Tri-Cities region. John Williams: Okay. Franklin: So is it okay if I call you John? Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, great. And you can call me Robert. Williams: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So I read in your—Emma [Rice] was kind enough to give me a bio, and so I read that your father worked at Hanford in World War II and you came here when you were a child. Williams: Mm-hmm. Franklin: The best place to being seems there, at the beginning. Williams: Okay, if you want me to, I will start there. Franklin: That would be great. Williams: Okay. Yeah, I was a little—actually it’s pretty good information about people that lived here in the early days. My father had already came out here. My mother drove us out, about six months after my father had come to work at Hanford. Franklin: Okay, sorry—when did he come to work? Do you remember the time of the year, what year it was? Williams: Well, it had to be in early ’44, I think. Franklin: Okay. Williams: Because we also—then we came out here about six months later and moved in middle of ’44, as best I can remember. I’m not remembering very many dates anymore. [LAUGHTER] We actually had to board up in Sunnyside in the old—they used to have some old Navy homes there. Franklin: Really? Williams: So we were about four or five blocks from the school there. So my mother took me down there, and I started school there. One day at lunchtime or wherever they were going—they were trucking us along the sidewalk, a bunch of kids—and I turned and headed toward what I thought was home. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t tell me what I was going to do. Anyway, turns out I got lost on the first day of school out there. [LAUGHTER] So it took them about a half day to find me or something like that. Anyway, we lived in those old Navy homes, and then we finally—they finished the house in Richland. It was a B house down on Thayer Drive. At that time, they usually had big courts behind all the houses, they were usually built in at least an arrangement where there was usually a large back area in there. And I remember there was not a seed of grass. It was all sand and dirt. And every time the wind blew, it blew like hell. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that’s our first move to Richland. Then I started school there and went to Sacajawea—originally it was Sacajawea. Then Spalding, and then Marcus Whitman, and then Columbia High School. That was sort of that situation there. I then went to CBC for a year, not realizing that things weren’t going to mesh up too well with the programs at WSU. I had met—I’m not sure how I’d met these people—but I had met a couple people, I guess, that were material scientists, metallurgists. So I talked to them for a while, and I decided that that’s what I wanted to be—a physical metallurgist. So I went to school at WSU in the physical metallurgy department. Now I think they call it mechanics of materials or something like that. It changed—they’re always changing the [LAUGHTER] names of the programs and stuff. So I graduated from there in 1961. Then, like I say, I interviewed a number of places, and decided, you know, I really sort of like Richland. [LAUGHTER] Because I had some--well, there was the mining industry, that was centered up around the Great Lakes. Then Pennsylvania and then there was Washington, DC was a possibility. So I interviewed a number of places, but they really were not something that would fit my personality as a basic country boy. Since I’d also grown up hunting and fishing—that was before they had all the lakes set up around then at Potholes Reservoir area. So we duck hunted on the Yakima River, and fished, and hiked in the mountains. It was a really great—as far as I’m concerned, it was a really great place to grow up because of the diversity of mountains and desert and everything else. [LAUGHTER] Now I live out between West Richland and Benton City. My address is Benton City, but that’s my mailing address. We started—with my former partner there—we started the first vineyard on Red Mountain. I remember it was sort of just a Jeep trail going in there, along what is now called Sunset Road. In fact, it was sort of a sunken road you might say. It was always interesting, because in the wintertime when it rained—and you know it did rain occasionally—but the water stayed in the road. We even had—you’d go in there on that road and there would be ducks sitting on the ponds on the road. [LAUGHTER] Oh, anyway, we started our effort to develop a vineyard, and that was in 19—so we bought the land in 1973, and got some permits and stuff. Actually, I bought the land from my father-in-law who owns—at that time—Waste Incinerating Company. I told him, I says, well, if I don’t hit water, I don’t want to close. [LAUGHTER] We had researched the water and we figured it was down there. I mean, we really researched the water. We figured it was down there about 540 feet below the surface. Through a couple layers of basalt also and the geological formation that the water was in fractured basalt. Anyway, we got an old well driller in there and we told him the water was down about 540 foot--just a couple young kids—guys. He’d look at us and roll his eyes, oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] They know where the water is. So anyway they started drilling and finally got down there. He got down there and we knew that was the day that he was going to get there. So we got out there after work and he was still drilling. Just—he says, boys, I just reached 540 feet, and there isn’t any water there. And we says, well, it’s got to be close. Anyway [LAUGHTER] we were pretty confident. He drilled about two more feet and hit water. I always remembered that, because he looked up, he says, you boys did know where that water was! [LAUGHTER] That was sort of the beginning of our vineyard efforts there. It took all the money that we had to drill wells and plant grapes. So I kept on working at Hanford. I worked with—when it started it was General Electric, and then Battelle came in. I had a program there and I was just like, no matter what I was doing, they just wanted me to do—write proposals and everything else like that. I had a fully funded program and it was one of those things that I just—I know what these guys are doing, because that was their young days in Battelle. I was traveling with some of my research projects at Hanford. So I just decided, well, if this is what the situation is going to be, I says, I think I’ll just change jobs. So I did go to work for my father-in-law at Waste Incinerating. Since I knew metallurgy and the incinerating processes—there’s a lot of metallurgy associated with the incineration of materials and all the different conditions, atmosphere and everything. So I had a pretty good feeling for what it was, so I worked for him for—oh, about a little less than two years. I just—I had some conflict with working for him. But it was one of those things that was really good, because I learned something that has always stuck with me, is if you give a guy a job, let him do it, as long as he’s got the capability to do that job. My son started working with us later, and I realized that a lesson learned is a lesson to be applied. With him, working for me, I give him the viticultural work, responsibilities, got into the wine making, because I was still working out here. He did a hell of a job, you know. But I was always very careful about how I approached what he was doing and what my concerns were and stuff. We got along fine. Anyway, I had three kids by the time I got out of college. So most of them are around here now. My one girl, daughter, just moved back. So whole darn family is [LAUGHTER] pretty much—one daughter in Moses Lake and her husband. He works for the silicone company up there and makes—So anyway I started working here, so I worked in the metallurgy department and that was in the early days. I worked with programs called N Reactor Creep, or radiation of materials and Creep was with N. It was basically on Zircaloy, stainless steel, and materials also for Fast Breeder reactors, which were coming along at that time—or proposed to come along. And then that’s after—that was before I left and went to work for Waste Incineration Company. And then when I came back to work, I had—Westinghouse came in work. I had a program called Heavy Section Steel Technology Program. This was the only non-FFTF fast reactor or nuclear reactor program, because it was all associated with power reactors. More specifically, pressurized water reactors, which were the home and the kind of reactors that Westinghouse was building all over the place. So here I am, sitting in with a bunch of people that are doing all sorts of other work, and I’m doing a pressure vessel steel work, ad interfacing with—it was pretty interesting, because I was interfacing with Oak Ridge National Laboratory, who were—the program direction was out of there. With Naval Research Laboratories in Virginia, and lots of AEC government meetings in Germantown, Maryland. So it was back and forth a lot. That was a really, actually, it was a very interesting program, and pretty much nobody else had any expertise in it, so they pretty much left me alone. [LAUGHTER] As a result of that, I really ended up with a lot of responsibilities and finally developed to a principal engineering position. So I would just BS with some post-graduate education, but where most of those kind of programs went to PhDs to be the head of a program. So I felt pretty fortunate. I did a good job, and really was able to pretty much do my own—make my own guidelines and publish quite a bit of data. So I think that was a real opportunity in terms of my growth. After that, then when that program sort of ended, I went to work in the 305 Building, which was the old reactor building at that time. You know, before they changed that, that’s where they had one of the original graphite piles there. So I subsequently went to work there and it was called the SAF—not the SAF program, it was the FMEF Program, which was where we developed all the equipment and tested it and checked it all out and wrote the procedures and trained technicians with the equipment. With the eventual move of that equipment out to the NDE and DE cells and in the FMEF down on the minus-30 or -40 foot level on that. We finally moved those in there and got everything installed and then they decided, well, we’re not going to do that here. [LAUGHTER] Which is not an unusual thing that’s happened over the years, in terms of programs at Hanford. All that stuff was then pulled out and sent to Dayton, Ohio, where DoE had a big lab there, a materials lab and fuels lab and stuff like that. That was a—well, I was a little sorry to see it go, because I thought it was going to be—I thought we had really done a great job, and the people that ended up with equipment just always really thought we had done a great job, too. So from that, I then moved into the SAF operation, which is for the production of—it was called the Secure Automated Fabrication line. It was a line that everything was in hoods, connected for continuous processes through the lines. There was one line that was set up for pellet production, canning of the pellets. Then there was another line for the chemistry sections of it. It was quite a—it was actually a really technical challenge and we had a lot of really good engineers. Normally, we had—with the number of systems, there were like 30-some systems within the process control. Not even counting all the computer model—the computer systems that were used to run it. So it was basically an automated system running from computer consoles and such. Anyway, the people that I worked with there were very dedicated and I thought it was a real accomplishment. They never did—we actually ran the line and tested the line with basically surrogate materials that were used to run the processes and test out the processes. Toward the end of that process, my systems were pretty much done. So I ended up sort of managing the—with the help of a couple of technicians—documenting the systems, reviewing all the operation procedures for each one of the systems, and then documenting that and getting that into the files for running the system. It was quite a system, I will say that, for sure. I think then from there, I went on to—well, we had a group there that had been—the process engineers and the chemical engineers and everybody that was involved to be able to run a system like that and create the documentation for it. As a result of that, we then sort of—let’s see, I got to think just a minute here. Okay. From there, we went—we had a group that we had all worked together there and we formed another group that was set up to, then, start the re-documentation of a lot of the procedures in the outer areas, the plutonium production and those facilities. They had—in other words—they had procedures out there, but nobody liked to read them, because they were so cumbersome. They were! I mean, they were just really practically impossible for the people that worked there to follow the procedures and accomplish work in a simple and a procedural manner where they could have good quality control on the thing. Anyway, we went out and they formed a group where they wanted us to go to the major facilities and rewrite operational procedures for them. I think that happened because of all the kudos that we got from documenting the FMEF SAF line in the facility. In other words, it was a—I will say—it was not a simple system, but it was well-documented and well-designed and all the guys that worked on that project were really pretty pleased with the stuff we had done. We got out to—I think it was 200 West, and we started on—people there, when we first came in, they says—it’s one of those things—well, we’re going to help you. [LAUGHTER] Nobody likes to be helped. But once we got started with it and talked to them about our goals and how we would accomplish it and stuff, they actually didn’t feel that badly toward us. I think there was a lot of animosity. You know, when you come in and tell them, we’re going to help you, you know? There’s a lot of people say, they aren’t going to help us, you know. So anyway with all the interviews that we did, and the participation that we included these people in the writing and the editing and everything for these procedures, for their different facilities, the first one that we finished, our group got a really big kudos and a lot of pat on the backs, and a lot of notoriety within Westinghouse at that time that was doing that. The next one, actually, the people that we did it for initially said, well where are you going next? We’ll recommend you that it’s something that can really be of value. So that’s what we did for the next couple years. Did a number of sites—I can’t remember what they were—oh. [LAUGHTER] It’s been a while. I actually looked for some of the documents and stuff that we had written and also some papers that I had written. And I could not find a damn thing. I had written most of those on a computer and stuff like that. I had kept some of my publications that we had produced in the open literature. So anyway, I didn’t find them. That’s 20-some years ago and not too easy to maintain where those are at, especially getting a house like ours and everything is sort of cluttered. [LAUGHTER] We did a couple more of those facilities, and then I had heard that there had been advertised that there was going to be early retirement because they wanted to do reduction of force. So I actually opted for that about a year or so ahead. What happened then is that they put me on another program where there was a number of us. There were some quality assurance people, some computer people, and a number of other disciplines that we were going to rewrite a lot of the Westinghouse Hanford management plans and that sort of thing. Since we had gotten pretty good kudos from the work that we had done for individual facilities, they decided that, well, maybe we need to update the Westinghouse program guides and stuff like that. We got started into that, and I worked at that for about a year. And that’s when I went because I was planning on—I told my managers there that if they actually had the early retirement, I was—sayonara. [LAUGHTER] So that opportunity came up in 1994 and I opted for the early retirement, which was, I think, a pretty good deal. You get three years on your age—on service, and didn’t have to get any pains to leave. So that’s what I did. Of course, at that time, the vineyard and the winery was getting more and more demanding. So I quit. The other thing was my father was at an age that I wanted to spend some time hunting and fishing with him, and damned if I got out—once I—after I quit, he had a heart attack around Christmas time. I remember, because we were headed—we were going to go over to—well, he’d had a heart attack before that. So every year we always went over to Pasco, up on there, where they used to have all the Christmas lighting and a lot of stuff like that. So we always took them and went up there. And, darn, we were sitting there having dinner at my mom’s, at their house, and my mother was bitching a little bit. [LAUGHTER] You can take that bitching out. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, my dad got up and walked to his chair and picked up his pill bottle. And I says, Dad, if you’re having a pain, just take that pill, don’t have to read the bottle again. Just take the pill. About that time he slipped out of the chair and passed away there. So that sort of put the kibosh on the hunting and the fishing and the stuff like that. But I had plenty of things to do. I also skied a lot at that time—I started skiing after I got out of college and was on National Ski Patrol for about 30-some years. And all my kids skied and they’re still on Ski Patrol, and grandkids are on Ski Patrol at White Pass, so we’ve been a patrolling family for years. Basically my big recreation thing. I still like to fish and hunt, but I didn’t have a fishing and hunting partner anymore. Well, I had some, but it was not quite the same as doing it with your dad, you know. That sort of brings us up to date. Then, like I said, we expanded our vineyards on Red Mountain. We built—I kept pretty busy after ’94. We built one building, because, actually, our house in Richland had ten-foot basement walls and an outside entrance and it was full of wine barrels--[LAUGHTER]—as my garage was. So we ended up finally building another building out there. I said, gosh, this is a really big building. And we immediately filled it up with tanks and barrels. I told my wife, I said, I’m not going to build any more buildings. And she says, I think you probably will. So it’s never say never. And we ended up building another building which was about twice as big for our case storage, and we have a lab in there and a bottling line, and pretty much a full facility winery. And then after operating from—I think we moved into our house in 1982 with the idea that we would move out of the tasting room down there. Because we had a nice tasting room in the basement and people would come there. And we’d move out of there and build another tasting room. Well, I didn’t do that until about 1970. [LAUGHTER] No, excuse me. 2070—20-07. Excuse me. 2007. So we built a pretty nice tasting room out there and have been using that ever since and it’s been a real big addition for us. We have a number of people working in our tasting room for us. I can always go over and get me a glass of wine when I need it. [LAUGHTER] So I think that probably pretty much brings us up to date. Like I said, when we started our vineyards, there were only eight—well at that time, I think there was only about five wineries in the state. Then 1980, I think there was about—when we actually started selling our first wines, I think there was probably ten wineries. That’s grown over the years now—I know over a year ago there was 800 wineries in the state, and I don’t know how many there is now. There’s probably 900 or so. I don’t know. I lost count. Franklin: Nice. It’s huge—it’s a booming industry. Williams: Oh, it is, yeah. And Oregon--the same thing is happening in Oregon. Between our vineyard and my son’s vineyard and then he has another vineyard out in Finley area that he bought quite a while ago—the first vineyard that he went to work for when he got out of college. Finally he ended up buying it. So we sell grapes to a lot of other wineries with the combined acreage of grapes that we have on Red Mountain and that is about 350 acres of wine grapes. We don’t make that much wine, so we sell quite a bit. Franklin: That’s quite a lot of—that’s pretty big acreage. Williams: Yeah. My grandson works for us—he’s in marketing. I guess my other grandson is probably going to go to work for us someday, if he—he travels around the world and goes to a different—works at a different winery every season, either north or south of the Equator. Because he can do that opposite seasons. He just took his—or he’s taking his exams for entering WSU in enology. Right now, though, he does—he’s got one more year and he’s got a job in France for next vintage. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sounds like a pretty nice life. Williams: He’ll come back eventually, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, unless France grabs him. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. You mentioned so much, and thank you. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: We covered a lot. If you don’t mind, I’m going to go back and maybe— Williams: You can edit whatever you want. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Get a few details No, I’m not editing anything. I’d just like to drill into things a little bit more. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So you said your family first came, you lived in Sunnyside Navy homes. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: And that was, I assume, because of the shortage of— Williams: Yeah, our house in Richland was not finished. So when we moved in to rent the house in Richland, it was brand new and it was the best house we’d ever lived in. [LAUGHTER] We came from Missouri, was our— Franklin: Okay. Williams: And my dad was a—he hated farming. [LAUGHTER] And he got into carpentry and then he actually worked for, I guess it was, Remington Arms in—I think they were in—yeah, they were in Kansas City. That’s how he then was offered—and that was during the Second World War—so he was offered to come to Richland—or Hanford at that time—and go to work on the Project as a carpenter. Eventually, he—well, like I said, we settled in Richland with a brand new home there, and over the years, hunted, fished. My dad was a hobby gunsmith. For years, he was the only gunsmith in the Tri-City area. So he—of course there weren’t that many sporting goods stores—there was BB&M and a couple other sporting goods stores that he used to restore guns for and he had a shop in his basement in the house that he bought—he didn’t buy, but he—one of the things that—except there was four kids and two bedrooms—he excavated his half of the B house, excavated the—and you could do that then—excavated the half of the basement and put the concrete in and the walls in down there with the blessings of the Hanford people. So he had a pretty nice shop down there. Of course it had that great big old furnace in it, too. [LAUGHTER] This is another thing I remember as childhood is, when the coal trucks came around and delivered coal to all the houses, because everything was—one of those big old, big furnace, big coal furnace. Us kids would always—my mother would always get a little ticked off, she’d say, get out of that coal! Get out of there! And all this stuff. [LAUGHTER] And we’d come out usually all black and stuff like that. She kept me pretty clean, considering. She was sort of Mrs. Clean. She eventually worked out there at Battelle. Franklin: Your mother? Williams: My mother worked out there. Franklin: Oh really? What did she do? Williams: Well, she was in the 300 Area and she was in the radiation counting department, where most of it was processing badges and radiation levels on badges and stuff like that. I think that’s what she did primarily there. Every time I’d go there for lunch or have something and see her, she’d say, that’s my son! That’s my son! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Aw. Williams: She was pretty proud of me. Franklin: And how long did she work at Hanford for? Williams: She worked there from, I would say—golly, you asked me a question there. I think she probably worked there from about 19—well she must have worked there at least about ten years before she retired. Franklin: Oh, wow. Williams: Yeah. I can’t remember exactly when she started there, but I remember the place that she worked in there. Franklin: What were your parents’ names? Williams: Williams. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Williams—well, right. Williams: John and Ethel Williams. Franklin: John and Ethel Williams. So much of Hanford’s workforce was—especially after the war was primarily male. It’s very interesting that you had two parents that worked at— Williams: There was actually quite a few women working in the different areas. In 300 Area and in Battelle there. Of course there were a lot of secretaries and then there were people in chemical processing and stuff like that, too. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. So what did your father—you said your father was a carpenter? Williams: Well, he was a carpenter and then he was a power operator-- Franklin: Wow. Williams: --at the reactors. He worked at N Reactor and in the early days, I think his first one was—N Reactor and before that he worked at in Reactor. So we worked at F Reactor and N Reactor. Franklin: Okay. Williams: I think that’s correct. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how long did he work on—did he retire from Hanford? Williams: Yes, he did. Franklin: And do you know about how long he worked until? Williams: Well, he worked there from about 1944 to—I think he retired in—well, when he came here, I think he was about 35 years old. And he worked there until he retired at 65 or something like that. Franklin: So around 30 years? Williams: 30-some years, yeah. Franklin: So then you guys worked there at the same time. Williams: Pardon? Franklin: So you and your father would have worked on site at the same time? Williams: Well, he was out in the outer areas, and I was in the 300 Area. Basically, he was in the reactor—fuel—reactor materials. Excuse me—bomb materials. [LAUGHTER] And that’s what all those reactors—they were producing material for bombs and they were separating—then all the separations were in the 200 and 200 West Area. And then where they completed the plutonium slugs was in the—I forget the name of the building, but that was in 200 West also. I can’t remember exactly the name of that building. Franklin: Was that the Plutonium Finishing Plant? Williams: The Plutonium Finishing Plant, yes, the Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: We just got a big bunch of photos from that. Because they’re taking that down right now. Williams: Uh-huh. Franklin: So our project just got a big mess of photos from that. Really fascinating— Williams: Yeah, it was. Franklin: --how they [CROSSTALK] Williams: So we actually did one of the plant procedure—plant operating manuals again for that. Franklin: Your group did? Williams: Yes. I’m trying to think of all the other ones that we did, but I can’t remember them all. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So when you moved out to Sunnyside, were there a lot of other Hanford families that were living— Williams: Well they were living—there was a—because a lot of people were living in Sunnyside, and when my dad first came there, he actually rented a room as a boarder in some people—at a house, a home. And I think there were a lot of other people doing that, too. Franklin: Here in Richland? Williams: No, in Sunnyside. Franklin: In Sunnyside, okay. Williams: Sunnyside. Because in Richland, by the time we were moved to Richland, they had the houses done. So they were building houses all along. Franklin: Right. Williams: But I think there were a lot of people that were living in Sunnyside that were traveling—particularly if they worked out in the outer areas—the West areas or the reactors—they were all clear around, pretty much around that. So they were coming, driving from Sunnyside. And I’m not sure if they had buses running from Sunnyside or not, because I just never asked my dad that. But I never did think about it that much. Franklin: I can imagine back in the ‘40s that would have been a pretty long drive to get to work with the— Williams: Well, it was. And I think they had buses coming out of Sunnyside also. Franklin: So I guess one can imagine that Sunnyside would have been kind of jammed with a bunch of new people from all over the US working. Did you ever—did you go to school—the school that you went to you mentioned, say, was that mixed kids from Sunnyside and Hanford kids? Williams: Well, you know what? I was like first grade and-- Franklin: Right. Williams: All I remember is, I sort of remember where that school was and I remember the places that we lived in. And then my grandparents, when they came out, they moved to Sunnyside. Franklin: Oh. Williams: And so we used to go up there every once in a while and visit them. Then we bought—my mom and dad bought a—they moved down to George Washington Way after I went to school and left home, they moved to George Washington Way. My dad remodeled a whole B house that was—he was pretty handy with that. They also then bought a prefab that was just over on I think Adams there or—anyway, it’s about one block past the street they lived on. Franklin: Okay. Williams: So you could run back and forth and visit and stuff. Franklin: Interesting. So how long did your family live in that—so you said your first house, the B house was on Thayer. How long did the family live there? Williams: Well they lived there and they moved—because I had already—after I started college, so that would have been actually in 1960—excuse me, that would have been in 19—I think they sold the houses in 1960—about 1958, I think. Something like that. Franklin: That’s right on the money. You’re talking about when the government— Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, 1958. Williams: And my folks lived in a duplex with the other person, and they had lived there first, so they had first option on it. So my mother and dad bought another house that became available and they liked it. It was down on George Washington Way, had a big yard and— Franklin: And that would have been one of the alphabet—was that one of the alphabet houses? Williams: Yeah, it was a B house. Franklin: Oh, okay. So a different B house from the first one you lived in? Williams: Well, it was just like it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right, yeah, of course. That’s true. Williams: Yeah, it’s a different B house. It was right on George Washington Way there. Franklin: I could have been more specific. Williams: Right on the corner of George Washington Way and—not Symons—what is that? Well, it was 203 George Washington Way and I’m trying to remember the street that runs alongside at that corner. Franklin: Oh, yeah, that’s in the—that district’s now on the National Register. Williams: Yeah. And so my dad remodeled that house that had a big shop in the basement where he did gun work and stuff like that. People from all over the Tri-Cities used to come there to get their guns fixed, because he had a pretty good reputation. [LAUGHTER] So anyway we had a lot of guns—rifles and—two things I never—my dad wouldn’t let me have. He wouldn’t let me have a BB gun, and he wouldn’t let me have a pistol. Because he says, those are the things that kill each other or put eyes out. [LAUGHTER] So, you know, if you got a long gun, you’ve got a little more [UNKNOWN] But the shotguns and the rifles and—he used to—well, he had one of the first—Weatherby used to be a big company, in terms of the type of rifles and the quality of rifles. Well, he used to build stocks and stuff like that, custom-built stocks for people. He had probably the only—there were not very many licenses given out to people that were gunsmiths. So he had—he sent a picture of a gun that he had built to Weatherby, and they immediately sent him an authorized license to buy and build rifles with their actions and stuff. Franklin: Wow. That’s cool. Williams: I remember when I was in high school—let me just think about it—it’s called fiddleback walnut. And, like I said, he was born in Missouri and there was a lot of walnut in that country. There was a company in Warsaw that was called Bishop Gunstock. They’d been making gunstocks for years—I don’t know if they’re still there, but I think they are. Not too many people make custom wooden gunstock. But he fitted the stock to—did all the inlaying, and then fitted the stock right to people so that when they’d come up, the rifle’s right where it should be, if you’re going to hunt, you don’t want to be looking around for your scope and that sort of thing. The piece of wood that he built on my rifle—and this was in 19—I would say in about 19—well he built that for me in my sophomore year of high school—so that piece of wood, then, the gun—blank stock made out of fitted—it was 55 bucks in 1960. And it was just fiddleback walnut like the backside of a violin. That’s why they call it fiddleback walnut. Franklin: Oh! Williams: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s interesting. So coming here in ’44 and you said you graduated college in ’61, so that means you would have entered Washington State College and graduated from Washington State University. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So you grew up then. So the entire time you grew up in Richland, it was a government town. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So can you talk about what it’s like to grow up in a town completely owned by the government? Williams: Actually, the government wasn’t really that involved in—they built the houses there and that’s who you paid rent to. It made it pretty reasonable for people to be able to work there and live there. Of course, then there were always people that left—I guess they call it the—every time they had a dust storm, the people left town. [LAUGHTER] They’d say, I’m not working here anymore! But you know it’s surprising how many of those people came back and settled here in Tri-Cities. Franklin: And why do you think they came back? Williams: Probably because the places that they thought they loved, they moved to and then they found out they didn’t love it that much. [LAUGHTER] And then of course the other thing, too, a lot of people that came back liked the outdoor sports, and the lower population, which it was—it was not a big city in terms of a lot of those places where people were from. There were people from Kansas City, there were people from St. Louis, there were people from Chicago, back east, Washington, DC, Pennsylvania, all over the country. There was quite a mix of people that had worked at—generally they had worked—originally, people that came here had worked at either different arms plants and stuff like that during the war and transferred out here because there was a big war effort. But there was also a big need for technical people and work in the reactors and stuff like that. Franklin: Right. Williams: You think about how fast they built some of those reactors, and what they would do today, because it would take a whole lot longer just to get—and do more—well, I always call it comment by the unknowledgeable. [LAUGHTER] Everybody—like a lot of the projects that I had in SAF line, we had people—I mean we had review meetings every month. And people from all over the country would come there. Most of the time you spent—you had to respond to any review question. And you spent a lot of time responding to some pretty stupid questions, because they didn’t know the processes to begin with, though they thought they were experts. That’s my opinion of it. You don’t need to quote me on that. [LAUGHTER] Because it might hit somebody pretty hard. My brother and I, when we were in high school and junior high, actually, we started a lawn mowing business. Franklin: Your brother, or brother-in-law? Williams: My brother and I. So my dad built these little carts to go on the back of our bicycles and we could put our mowers up on there and pedal around town and mow yards. So we had clippers. We were at one time mowing about 40 yards a week in the summertime. Fortunately, in the latter part of that, I had a driver’s license, so we—[LAUGHTER] could drive around. But that was very interesting, because we had people—basically we had a customer waiting list to get on the list if we ever had a vacancy for lawn mowing. And because we did such a good job and we trimmed all around the sidewalks, and we clipped—I mean first class jobs. This rumor spread and so we always had—and the interesting thing was that there was a guy named Campbell that owned the Campbell’s grocery store. He lived down off of Stevens down there some place. And his wife—he came home one day and says, well, I’m paying you guys too much. I only pay my box boys a dollar and a half, or a dollar and a quarter, or something like that. We said, well, do your box boys have to buy their own equipment? No. So there was a number of questions. And we said, you know, we have a waiting list for people that want to have their yards mowed. So if we lose you as a customer, it’s not going to really bother me very much, because you’re downgrading my wages. Anyway, we said, well, we’re not going to mow your yard anymore. His wife called us up and says, won’t you mow my yard? We says, well, are we going to get paid what we used to get paid for it? She says, oh no, I can’t pay you that. My husband won’t let me. So we says, well, we’ve already replaced you with another customer. [LAUGHTER] We were pretty hard businessmen, but we—at that time, we were in high school. Actually, we had an account down at Richland Hardware, it was called at that time, right down on the corner of George Washington Way and Swift there—no, George Washington Way and Lee Boulevard there. So we had our own account down there and then we had an account with a guy that sharpened the mowers and stuff like that. We had to have our mower sharpened every two weeks, because with that many, you go through blades pretty fast. Franklin: Right. Williams: And at that time, our first lawn mower cost us almost $500. Franklin: Wow. Williams: For a gas-powered, driven lawn mower. And that was a lot of money then. I mean, now you can buy a lawn mower for 100 bucks or a few hundred bucks, and not too many people make real-type mowers anymore, walk-behind mowers. Of course those were the best mowers in terms of manicuring the grass, you know. Much better than a rotary mower. So anyway! That’s part of my history. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really interesting. Wow. There’s so much in that. So, I guess to return back to it for a minute—so you’re saying that people were pretty happy living in Richland during the—before the sale—before the privatization. Williams: Well, I think so. We had Columbia High School that was the only high school around at that time, or Richland High School. And you pretty much knew everybody at school. Franklin: Right. Williams: Even though there were quite a few people and there was a lot—activities and that sort of thing. So I think people were happy. We were, and I didn’t know too many people that weren’t happy. There weren’t too many people killing each other or anything at that time. Franklin: To live in Richland at that time, you needed to work at Hanford, right? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: To live in Richland at that time, you needed to work at Hanford? Williams: That is pretty much—yes. To live in a house in Richland, you had to work at Hanford. Franklin: So did you ever have—was it ever a problem for you if people left their jobs or lost their jobs, you had friends leave, or your parents have friends that left? Williams: You know it wasn’t—and in those days, more—there weren’t that many big layoffs. More or less, people left on their own volition. I don’t—I just—it was not something that at that time I was concerned about. Franklin: Right. Williams: We had neighbors around the court there that—there was Gunnison Court, and then there was Putnam and Thayer, and that was sort of the little alcove that we lived in. Then there was a great big court behind that. And then up behind that there was a set of power lines going through. So there was a big alleyway up through there. So we had a lot of play space. [LAUGHTER] We’d get out there at night and kick-the-can and all that sort of stuff. [LAUGHTER] So we were pretty self-entertaining and we all got along pretty good together. Franklin: Did you—when did you find out what was being made at Hanford? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: Do you remember when you found out what was being made at Hanford? Williams: Well, I remember—I do remember—actually I remember them dropping the atomic bomb. Because as soon as it was—it was on the radio. Of course in those days, you didn’t have television, you listened to a lot of radio. Lay around in the living room listening to radio, it’s like watching TV then. [LAUGHTER] You know, all the different programs that were on and stuff. But I remember distinctly the announcement coming over the radio that they had dropped an atomic bomb, and that’s when then everybody knew what they were making out there. None of us—nobody really knew, unless you worked there what they were making, because it was mum’s the word. First thing you could do getting fired is if you were talking—loose lips, they called it. Franklin: Loose lips sink ships. Do you think your father knew before the announcement? Or--? Williams: I think that he knew what they were producing in the reactors. Franklin: Okay. Williams: And I think everybody did, pretty much. They didn’t know, though, that it was going to lead to the atomic bomb. They just knew that they were producing a war material and—of course they’d never seen it go out or never seen it come in. Now, my father-in-law did work in the Plutonium Finishing Plant. He actually developed some of the precision machining operations for producing the final puck. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. Interesting. So you mentioned father-in-law. Where did you meet your wife, is she also from--? Williams: Well, she was—they moved out here about the same time she did, and she lived about three blocks behind me and I never knew her until I got into high school. We met, fell in love, and been in love ever since. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: High school sweethearts? Williams: Yeah, we were. Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. And did you both go to WSU? Williams: Yes, we did. Franklin: Together? And what was her degree in? Williams: Well, she didn’t finish school exactly. Franklin: Okay. Williams: She did do some other—she was actually still in high school when we got married, so she finished high school in Pullman, and then she worked at the hospital in Pullman for a number of years while we were going to school there. And having kids and going to school and studying and playing pinochle. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And you said you had three children when you were in--? Williams: Four. Franklin: Four, but how many when you were in—? Williams: I had three by the time I got out of college. Franklin: Wow, that’s—kids today complain about how little time they have, but I can imagine having three kids and going to school full-time. Williams: Well, you know, they seemed to—they’re all happy and they’re still home. Franklin: Wow. So what did she do—so you moved back to Richland and started working at the site shortly after you graduated. So what did she do? Williams: Well, she has taken care of four kids. [LAUGHTER] And then she was taking some courses at CBC and in Richland. She sort of has a—I would say an associate degree. They didn’t really finish all that, but she’s super-smart. She’s smarter than I am. Reads like fast, and always made good grades. I always wondered why the hell she married me! [LAUGHTER] Maybe because I got her pregnant! [LAUGHTER] You don’t have to put that in there. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] We can cut that if you want. That’s—oh, that’s great. Excellent. So you were working on Hanford site when President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Williams: Yes, I was. Franklin: Did you go to see that or--? Williams: I did, yes. Franklin: Can you tell me about that, what you remember? Williams: Well, it was just one of things that—I went out there and there was a lot of people stood around there. He said a few things and we all clapped and [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And that was it? Williams: That was it, yeah. Franklin: Are there any other major events that come to mind when you think about Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Williams: Well, I sort of remember—you know, I’m trying to think of a major event. Well, I remember when they built CBC, because when I first went to CBC, it was in the old airport building over at the airport in Pasco. And that came along after I was already out of there. Franklin: Oh. Williams: Oh, what else do I remember? I remember having a lot of fun around here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s good. This might seem a little out of left field, but I’ve been thinking about this question as I do the interviews. Do you know the name Sharon Tate? She was a Hollywood actress. Williams: Well, you know, I remember reading about her later, but that’s when everybody else did. And I didn’t really know her, or hadn’t gone to school with her. Franklin: Right. But because she was from the community, was there a particular reaction here? Or was the news really— Williams: You know, I think, actually, it was one of those things that you sort of remember hearing about. But she had been gone for some time, you know? So it was—all the aftermath of that was more spectacular in terms of the group. Of course, they still got that guy in prison, and as far as I’m concerned they never need to let him out. He was a crazy man. He made a lot— Franklin: Yeah. He certainly—I don’t think there’s any debate on that. Williams: Yeah, he made a lot of news. And then they had that place in Death Valley where they congregated. Franklin: Yeah. Williams: And they still got a good number of them still—the fact is, I think I was reading last year, they’ll potentially release one of the gals, but I think they then reneged on that. I don’t know if they did that or not. Franklin: I think they didn’t. I think I followed that too. I don’t believe they released her. Williams: So there was nothing that—I don’t think it was anything that anybody really got excited about or anything, because it was so remote from here, and it was Hollywood and you know, all sorts of things happen in Hollywood. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So is there anything that we haven’t talked about? Williams: I don’t know, I keep talking. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. We love it. Williams: Yeah, I talked about our younger days and moving here and growing up here and staying here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I have a question that just came to my mind if you don’t mind. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: What made you decide to start a winery? Williams: Well, I tell you, my former partner and I, we worked together both in material science. And we shared an office. And he was from Vallejo, California. And went to Berkeley. And I was just a beer-drinking kid from WSU at that time. So I tasted some wine that he had and I says, oh, God, that’s pretty good stuff. So we started talking more about wine. And then at that time we got interested in—and we were in research, so we were reading about the research that was being done at the Prosser Experiment Station with Dr. Clore at that time. Being researchers and stuff—and we’re interested in it, we wrote in an application for participation in their sort of steering committee at Prosser Experiment Station for their wine experimentation and wine making. We met Dr. Clore and a number of people that were involved in it. There was a fellow from Stuttgart University in Germany that had toured—came here for a tour, and I think that’s when we had—just after we had planted some grapes. We asked—when he was here—because there was a plant that we wanted to get—a nursery plant from stock at Prosser Experiment Station. That was Lemberger, which had never been planted in this area. It also had a—the guy from Germany, he said, well, he says, that’s the only plant that we allow to be planted in Germany that has a virus. But it’s unique to that plant. And it is completely different than leaf row virus or any of the other ones. I mean, when those leaves turn, it’s just brilliant orange and red out in the vineyard. Anyway, after that, Dr. Clore called me and he says, well, John, we just released these plants for cuttings to Lewis and White Nursery in Prosser. He says, if you want those, you need to call them and let them know. So I got on the phone right then. I told them, I says, well I’ll take all the plants you make. So we got enough for about two acres of grapes. As a result of that, we produced the first Lembergers in the United States, whatever that is. And it’s pretty nice wine. People love it. It produces fairly well and as a result, it’s a fairly—relatively inexpensive red wine. When you think about what we used to sell wine for and what they go for now, it’s—the dollar was worth a lot more and there was less cost in producing everything. Bottles were cheaper, barrels were cheaper and everything. When we started an American oak barrel cost about 250 bucks. That was cooped for wine coop. They had a lot of American oak barrels that were whiskey barrels, but they weren’t cooped as a wine barrel. A wine barrel has more curvature to it. Anyway, when they released those, I called and got the plants and we started planting those in our vineyard. We started, we had 70-some—80 acres out there. We produced, in the first year of planting, we planted about 12 acres. Then we kept planting more acreage every year as we had the money. Sell some wine, plant some more grapes. Make some more wine, sell some more grapes—[LAUGHTER] In about—well, in 1982 after we finished building our house, like I said, we built ten-foot walls in the basement so I could put wine barrels in the basement three high. [LAUGHTER] And it smelled pretty good down in that basement. [LAUGHTER] We also built, then, in the front side a tasting room—real nice tasting room. Panel and had some nice antique oaks countertops and— Franklin: Oh, wow. Williams: So we ran a lot of people through there in a number of years. That was the roots of it. Franklin: Do you still do private— Williams: And it just keeps expanding and expanding. My wife was pretty glad when got most of the barrels out of the building and had a little more room for things. She quickly occupied it, I think. [LAUGHTER] Anyway. Franklin: What was the—so you started—I took it down in my notes—1975, you started. What was the—you said you were one of five in the state, and when you finally started producing you were one of ten. What was the reception in the community to the winery? Was it a popular thing, or did people just kind of— Williams: Well, you know, I think soon as we opened up we started having customers and stuff. We actually opened up a small—in a garage that my partner built in West Richland. So we didn’t really have a formal tasting room, but we could taste wines there during special events. Eventually, in 1982 is when I started building the house that we have there on Sunset Road. Fairly sizeable house. I had a tasting room down there and stuff. So at that point, people started coming. Then other people. Then we entered our wines in a number of Washington competitions, and they were just grabbing all sorts of plump prizes at that time and people started to say, well what’s this Red Mountain place like? And then pretty soon other people started coming out there. Now you go out there and you look at it, just a field of green. [LAUGHTER] Just the—Aquilini, which is a firm out of Vancouver—and they, when they had the—Kennewick Irrigation District was planning on putting in the water system down there and they had already worked on it. And so they had the pipes in and everything. So they actually had an auction for about 650 acres that—excuse me—that KID owned out there. So we went to there and bid on two 80-acre pieces, but it just kept going up and up and up and up. We spent all day out there bidding and then they’d suspend the bidding for a while and then they’d start it, the next level bidding from where they had stopped previous. They weren’t starting over from the beginning. And eventually it was pretty obvious that these people were going to buy it all. And I think they bought it, and it went for $12,000 an acre, which is really a pretty good buy, because I had already sold land to Col Solare, and that was—at that time I sold them 20 acres plus an option on 20 if they optioned that within a year’s time. And it was for more than the one that I originally—so the option was going to cost them more. The first stuff went for—I think it was 20,000 bucks an acre and then they optioned the second one, it was 25,000 bucks an acre. It helped me pay off some of my debts and stuff. [LAUGHTER] Since then, there’s vineyards all over up there now. Franklin: Yeah. So you guys really helped to start something. Williams: Well, we did. It was one of those things that everybody—course at that time, too, in 1975 when we were saying, well we’re going to go out and drill a well and plant a vineyard, everybody says, you guys friggin’ crazy? [LAUGHTER] Because there wasn’t that many wineries in this state. And then some of the wineries that were in the state at that time have already gone broke or quit. So there’s probably—of the wineries that were there in 1980, I would say there’s probably 60% of those under the same owner or still a small winery or vineyard. Then the other thing is, there was five of us in the Yakima Valley, and Mike Wallace had his winery in Spokane—not Spokane, in Prosser. He was about the—he was the first one—actually, I took a wine-making course from Mike at CBC, and from there, the wineries started—well, we formed the Yakima Valley Winery Association. There were five of us that went together and wrote up the federal requirements for starting an American Viticulture Area. So there’s a number of things that you have to cover: climate, location, topography, soils and all that stuff. And mapping and that sort of thing. So each—there was five wineries and we each took a portion of the thing, and put it together and submitted. Helen Willard, out of Zillah, she was a reporter for—I think it was for either Prosser or Yakima or sort of both—reporter for quite a few little papers. She wrote up part of the history. So she was involved in it. Of course, her son—they have a vineyard up there and they used to sell all their grapes to—oh, shoot. Anyway, they’ve been around for as long as we have in terms of wineries. Franklin: Wow. Williams: That was it. Five wineries started in the Yakima Valley and now, goodness, I don’t know how many there are now, either. [LAUGHTER] Must be— Franklin: A lot. Williams: A lot, yeah. Franklin: You can do those tasting tours— Williams: And then now—we formed the Red Mountain AVA, which is a sub-appellation of the Yakima Valley. It’s in the same boundaries. There’s Horse Heaven Hills—excuse me, Rattlesnake Hills AVA now, and—I’m not sure if—there’s another one there that’s sort of—I think they’re starting up there. But I’ve known all those guys for quite a while. [LAUGHTER] I hardly—it’s hard to keep track of it when there’s so many wineries. Franklin: I bet. Williams: But one of the things that I think has happened—because in the first years, my partner and I, we knew what wines should taste like. And we were very critical of our own wines. And we said, well, if it’s not a good wine, we’re not going to sell it. We’ll dump it down the drain or whatever. Because we had other jobs. But it wasn’t worth our—the worst thing you could do is produce a wine and then have a bad reputation forever. And when there’s that many people doing it, it’s easy to get a bad reputation if you’re the worst one out there. But if you’re one of the best ones out there, you really get a whole lot more publicity and stuff. So it was—we put a pretty high goal for ourselves in terms of the wines that we produced. It was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun, and we drank well and we went—you know. Wrote off a lot of expenses because everything you did was going into that winery or that vineyard somehow. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Williams: I think I hocked everything I had at that time, but—it worked out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. Tom, do you have any questions? Tom Hungate: No. Franklin: Emma, did you have any questions? Emma Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Which one? Which one of these would you like to—all of them? Rice: Well, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So how do you think the wine industry has shaped the area? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: How do you think the wine industry has shaped the Tri-Cities area? Williams: Well, I think it’s had a big effect on it, because every place that you read, it’s wine, there’s wineries all over Richland and the Tri-Cities now. And I think that the big thing of it is, you’d be surprised—there’s people coming from all over. There’s people coming from California now to taste wines in Washington. I think the fact that we had the Red Mountain as probably one of the most acclaimed wine areas in Washington state is partly because Col Solare is there, but also we’ve just, over the years, had a lot of good press from people that were interested in doing wines here. Bob Waller, who died a few years back, and was a real wine—I mean he was the first—when he started, he didn’t know a friggin’ thing about wine. [LAUGHTER] But he learned it real fast, and was a good wine writer and really promoted the wines. Then the other thing that was very conducive at that time is the wine—support that we had from Prosser Experiment Station and the work they were doing up there in making wines. They didn’t really make wines to barrel age them or anything like that. But they made wines to see how the wine grape—the wines would respond to different grape growing techniques. And they did a lot of work over the years. There was a lot of information in planting, in terms of watering plants, in terms of maintaining the plant growth, and also in terms of varietal selection for the different wineries and vineyards and stuff. Franklin: Did the boom here—is it something that you thought was a real possibility that could happen, or was it kind of a surprise? Williams: Well, when I—I always had confidence that we would do something here, but it grew so fast that after that, I wasn’t very—didn’t have a whole lot of doubt. Because it took off. It really, within—by 1983, from going from eight or nine—eight to ten wineries—I don’t remember—in 1980. But by 1983 there were, oh, there was 40, 50 wineries in the state already. And then it kept growing, and two years ago—and I haven’t kept track of it. Two years ago, there’s over 800 wineries in the state, and I’m sure there’s at least 900 there now. I mean, every place you read, there’s a winery there someplace. Franklin: Wow. So I guess the last question’s kind of a shift in topic, but—what do you remember about segregation in the area before the Civil Rights Act? Because of— Williams: Well, you know, I think—there was a couple families that went to—lived in Richland. Their parents worked at Hanford and stuff. Franklin: A couple of— Williams: Yeah. So I think—I don’t think it was an issue, because the guys that were there, they were both super athletes and stuff. I knew a couple other kids, too, that lived in the area. I don’t think there was—there was definitely segregation in Tri-Cities, because most of the black people lived in East Pasco. Franklin: Right. Williams: And so that was, I think, already prominent there before they even started Richland. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. East Pasco— Williams: And the reason why I say that is because a lot of those people worked for the railroad, and the railroad was a big thing in Pasco in the early days. It moved from—I can’t remember the name of the pre-Pasco village. Franklin: Ainsworth. Williams: Yes, Ainsworth. So that was pretty much—the people that worked in—or lived in Pasco were different kind of workers than in Richland. And quite frankly, at that time, in those times, there was a lot of segregation. People lived there in where they lived in Pasco because of the segregation. Franklin: Right. Did you see the effect of civil rights legislation in the Tri-Cities? Did that have a pretty—a big impact on the ways that people— Williams: I didn’t personally see that, because, again, it was—our population of blacks in Richland were not that many. I know there were people in Richland. I just call them assholes—excuse me—bigoted people that I’d hear them talk about Pasco or stuff. But even the people—there was the few colored people that went to Hanford—or to Columbia High, I never saw—I personally never experienced feeling one way or another about them. I certainly didn’t feel like I was prejudiced against them. My dad had a guy that he knew that used to go fishing with, too, liked outdoor sports and particularly hunting and fishing. It’s hard to say. I just—I would say no, in terms of living in Richland. Franklin: Okay. Williams: I don’t know, in the early days of Hanford, there was a fair amount of segregation on the Hanford Project. Because they had different dormitories and housing for onsite housing for construction workers there. So I think it was pretty well segregated there. Franklin: And they had minstrel shows— Williams: But I only know that as more of history than having personally experienced it. Franklin: Okay. Williams: You know, when you’re at that age, you’re not—you’re just a kid running around the neighborhood playing kick-the-can at night. [LAUGHTER] Now that was the interesting thing. When I was a kid, we rode our bikes everyplace. We were never in fear of anything. The other thing, the Richland swimming pool had shifts. You’d go in there and swim for an hour, and then you’d get out, have to wait in the park someplace, and then you’d get back in the next hour after that. So it was not a very big pool, but there were a lot of people lived here at that time. So it was fairly restrictive of that. My dad had an old fishing boat, so in high school—and you know, boats weren’t then like they are now. So I think it had a 15 horsepower motor on a little [UNKNOWN] And the guys at BB&M that owned BB&M then had also a dock down there on the Columbia River, right there, right in front of the park down there at that time. So we used to go down there and hang on that and waterski off that platform off their boathouse down there on our little old 15-foot boat with a 15 horsepower motor on it. [LAUGHTER] And skis were wide, they were longer, so you didn’t really need a whole lot of surface area. Franklin: Wow. That’s really neat. Well, John, thank you so much. Williams: Oh, you’re welcome. Franklin: It was a really excellent conversation. Williams: Well, glad—hope you can edit all of my wows out of there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, you gave us so much. Williams: Okay. Franklin: You’ve lived a really fascinating— Williams: Well, I don’t have trouble talking too long. [LAUGHTER] Or too much, so. All righty, well-- <a href="https://youtu.be/nFJmibUsayY">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor 305 Building FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facilty) 200 West 300 Area F Reactor 200 Area PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962-1994. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Williams Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Metallurgy Viticulture Vineyards Nuclear reactors Segregation Description An account of the resource John Williams moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. John worked on the Hanford Site from 1962-1994 and opened the first vineyard on Red Mountain in 1973. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/01/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F22a47cdc1d3b88313269d6f802e6dda2.JPG 4a35f1e3a59831bd654729595c60c719 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc93035045c2b495868c9d383987a3bd0.mp4 23cdfe57608f10a6543cbc8bda83af7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dan Carter Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin and I am conducting an oral history interview with Daniel Carter on February— Tom Hungate: 19th. Franklin: 19th, thank you, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Dan about his experiencing living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Dan Carter: Daniel G. Carter, Junior. Franklin: Okay, and can you spell that out? Carter: D-A-N-I-E-L, G, C-A-R-T-E-R, Junior, J-R. Franklin: Great, thanks a lot, Dan. So tell me how you first came to the Tri-Cities area. Carter: Well, I was recruited by GE, that I refer to as Generous Electric, and I think that’s because of the fact that they had their own appliance store here and we found it very generous of them to allow us to buy GE appliances at a discount. Franklin: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Carter: I was recruited by GE, and I was supposed to be going to Florida. And then I got a call from Schenectady. They said, no, we want you to go out to the Hanford Site near Pasco, Washington. Do you know where it is? Nope, never heard of it. So, that started the ball rolling, and I started getting calls from the HR people here with GE at Hanford, trying to schedule a date for me to come out for an interview. And it took me a couple of months to do that, because I was teaching school at the time. And I told them I had to wait until the school year was over before I could break loose and take a trip out here. Franklin: Where were you living at the time? Carter: In Louisiana. Franklin: Are you from Louisiana originally? Carter: Yes, I’m originally from Louisiana. Franklin: Could you give us your birthdate? Carter: September the 19th, 1939. Franklin: Great, thanks. So what was your educational background at that time? Carter: I graduated from Southern University in Baton Rouge with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry. Franklin: Okay, and is that what you were teaching? Carter: I taught chemistry, general science, physics, and geometry. [CHUCKLING] Franklin: And what position had you applied for at General Electric? Carter: Just a scientific position. Franklin: Okay. And when you were living in Louisiana, that was—you were born into segregation. Carter: That’s correct. Franklin: Right, and Louisiana was still segregated at that time? Carter: That’s correct. Franklin: Can you talk about how that impacted your life and your education? Carter: Well, first of all, I went to a segregated school all twelve years of secondary education. It was interesting that, at that time, due to the segregated system, our school was lower on the totem pole for resources. For example, the textbooks that I got were not new. They were used textbooks that were sent over from the all-white high school when they got new textbooks. It was in later years that they decided they were going to try to do better and started giving the all-black schools new textbooks. And started building some new buildings at that time. When I went to Southern University in Baton Rouge, I had no choice of going to Louisiana State University. However, if you were in graduate school, you could possibly get into a program at that university. But for undergraduate work, you couldn’t do it. Franklin: Was Southern University an HBC? Carter: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And where did you grow up, your formative years? Was that in Baton Rouge? Carter: No, central Louisiana. Franklin: Central Louisiana. Carter: Yeah. Franklin: And your town, all of its facilities and everything were segregated? Carter: That’s correct. Franklin: Did you also—was the town itself segregated as well— Carter: Yes. Franklin: --from the—and so what—can you describe what some of the segregated facilities were and kind of the differences between the white facilities and the black facilities? Carter: Well, you had, on the social side, the restaurants, it was either all-white or all-black. The churches were either all-white or all-black. There were efforts to try to bridge that gap between church members, especially when it came to civil rights. So, like I say, the black communities on one side of town generally, and the white community on the other side of the town. Franklin: Did you—I know it was a common practice at that time for blacks to use the backdoor of a restaurant in order to take food to go. Was that the case in your—where you grow up? Carter: Yeah, if you went to one of the white restaurants, yeah. Franklin: You could order food, right, and give them money, you just couldn’t eat the food— Carter: There. Franklin: --inside the restaurant. Carter: Yeah, right. So, normally, you would go to a black restaurant. Because there were black restaurants. Rather than go to the white restaurant and get food out the backdoor. Franklin: Right. So when you started getting these calls from this Hanford place, kind of take us through that and kind of how you got to the Tri-Cities. Carter: Well, they gave me a little information about the Hanford Project and the fact that they were doing some really scientific work that I thought was very interesting. I wanted to learn more about it. So— Franklin: What did they tell you about it? What did they tell you about what they were doing, and what kind of detail did they go into? Carter: Well, they didn’t go into a lot of details, because they were—you know, still a lot of stuff was just absolutely secret at that time. But they explained that they were part of the Manhattan Project, but they didn’t go into any details of building bombs or operating reactors or any of that kind of stuff. They just talked about the scientific work that was being done here. They thought I could be a participant in that. Franklin: Okay. And so what happened next? Carter: Well, I came out for my interview, and I was really impressed with the high-level scientific work that was going on in the laboratories, in the reprocessing facilities and the reactors. That was all new stuff to me. I just found it very interesting, so I was thinking, you know, I think I’d like to become a part of that. So I went back home and I was married at the time and had one child. My mother-in-law said, you know, it’d probably be a good idea for you to take that job. I think mother-in-law wanted me to be in a position to properly support her daughter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, right. Had you left the South before that? Carter: No. Franklin: No, so going to Hanford was your first time north of the Mason-Dixon Line? Carter: Oh, no, no, that’s not true. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carter: I had relatives in Detroit, so we made trips to Detroit from time to time. Not often, but occasionally. Franklin: Okay. So you eventually picked up your family and moved to Hanford. When was that, approximately? Carter: In mid-’64. Franklin: Mid-’64. What were your first impressions, and your family’s first impressions of the Tri-Cities? Carter: It’s a very desolate place. A lot of open space. Not many trees. We’re used to lots of trees. Never had seen tumbleweeds rolling down the streets. We saw that. Had to water your lawn to have any grass, and that was new to us. Franklin: Where did you first live when you came to work for the— Carter: In Richland Village. Franklin: In Richland Village. And what type of house did you live in? Carter: I don’t know what—it was a two-bedroom house. They didn’t have the ABC names in those houses. Franklin: Okay. And what were you kind of—tell me about your work, what did you first start out doing for Hanford? Carter: I started working in the Analytical Laboratories in the 300 Area. Franklin: Okay, and what type of work did you do? Carter: Analytical chemistry. Franklin: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Tell me about kind of— Carter: And—and— Franklin: --a day in a life of an analytical chemist. Carter: Well, you work in a laboratory and you’re doing analytical work. Separating materials out, studying materials and—that’s the kind of stuff you’re doing in an analytical laboratory. You’re also making a determination of what kind of concentration you have of certain chemicals in a compound and so forth. That was my first assignment. I was on what they call the tech-grad rotation program. So I spent three months in the Analytical Laboratories and then I was sent out to the PUREX Plant and to spend another three months out at the PUREX Plant also in the Analytical Laboratory. Then after that, I moved back to the 300 Area, and that’s when GE decided to leave. And I went from GE to Battelle. Franklin: And is that because Battelle took over that work— Carter: Yes. Franklin: --when GE left? Carter: Yes. Franklin: Okay, okay. Carter: And I had a choice of staying with GE at one of the other locations, like out at the 200 Area with the PUREX Plant, or agreeing with GE to move to another city. Franklin: Oh. And how come you chose to stay and go to Battelle? Carter: Well, the human resources person who recruited me leaned on me very heavily to go with him over to Battelle. Franklin: Why was that? Carter: I suppose that he thought that I would make a good fit for Battelle in the technical area. So he didn’t want to lose a, I guess, another technical person to another location. Franklin: Oh, okay. Tell me about the—more about the tech grad program and kind of the makeup of it. It was college grads. Carter: Yes. Franklin: Right. Was it—how diverse was it? Did you work with mostly white coworkers, or did you have—were there any—and was it segregated at all? Or—I’m wondering if you could talk a bit about that. Carter: No, there was no segregation, because I was it. There were no other—all the people in the program were white. Franklin: Okay. Carter: There were no minority people at all. Franklin: What was your perception by your white coworkers? Carter: Got along fine with everybody. They treated me well. Franklin: And what about in Richland? I’m wondering if you could talk a bit about moving from a formally segregated society to a not formally segregated society. Carter: We didn’t have any problem. We fit in very well. We did not—my bride and I never had an issue. Franklin: Sure. I guess I’m just wondering about how it felt, maybe, to go into spaces that, in the South, would have been whites only, but in the North would have been open to anyone regardless of race. I’m just kind of curious how that—was there something to get used to there? Carter: Not at all. Franklin: Not at all? Carter: Nope. Franklin: And you’ve lived in Richland your whole time since moving here, right? Carter: That’s correct. Franklin: And we know there’s a large African American community in Pasco. How large was the African American community in Richland? Carter: Very small. I would say less than 100 maybe. There were some families that were here long before I came, like the Mitchells, the Wallaces, the Browns. So there were other families here before I came. Franklin: Your wife, you mentioned. Did she work outside the home, or was she--? Carter: Yes. Franklin: Okay, and where did she work? Carter: First job was in the Battelle Technical Library. Franklin: Okay. Carter: Then she went from there to the Technical Shop. Then the 300 Area. And then from there, she went to—what was it called? Hanford Environmental Health Organization, who did all the medical work out at Hanford, she went to work for them. Franklin: Oh, the HEHF, Hanford Environmental Health Foundation. Carter: Yes. Franklin: And what was her background? Did she have a college education as well? Carter: She did not finish her college degree, because we got married in college, and we promptly started a—with a child. So she dropped out of school. But she was majoring in business. So she did clerical work, you know, and that kind of thing when she worked out at Hanford. Franklin: Oh, okay. Did you have any interaction with the African American community in Pasco? Carter: Sure. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that. Carter: Oh, I initially met people in that community through the church. Franklin: Mm. And then how—what other types of interactions did you have? Carter: Well, over the years, I met different people. And at one point, there were some of us—the African Americans here in Richland, and the ones in Pasco—became good friends, and we would have a Pokeno party once a month. Franklin: A keynote? Carter: Pokeno. Franklin: Oh, Pokeno. Carter: So then about three or four couples from Pasco and about three or four couples from Richland would get together and go from one home to another home. We did that for a number of years. Franklin: Okay. Did you go to church in Richland or in Pasco? Carter: I went to church in Richland, and I attend church at Central United Protestant Church over the years. However, we would go to special events at especially the St. James Methodist Church over in east Pasco. But we also participated and attend the black Baptist churches over there. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if—I know there were some—so, you know the ‘60s, kind of when you came and the few years after you came, that was kind of the growth and kind of the climax of the civil rights movement in the United States. Carter: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about how that affected you and your family and others that you knew in the African American community. Carter: Well, first of all, my bride and I were part of the very first largescale downtown marches during the Civil Rights period, and that was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Franklin: Okay. Carter: Where we were part of the first big march that went into downtown Baton Rouge. In fact, the university was shut down for two days because of the—well, I guess you could say the concern for people on both sides of the arguments there. But we finally got things settled back down. And it had to do with—one of the things that bugged the hell out of me a lot was—I have a distaste in my mouth for Walgreen drugstores now. And it goes back to when there was a Walgreen drugstore in my town that had a lunch counter. And I could not go and sit at the lunch counter and order a hamburger. And that always bothered me. [CHUCKLING] But after my bride and I came here, we went to wherever we wanted to go. We went to any restaurant or the store or whatever. We never had any issue. We never did. Franklin: What motivated you to participate in that civil rights march in Baton Rouge? Carter: Oh, we had a lot of—we lived—my bride and I both lived on the campus. And the dormitory councils held meetings about it, and we just said, hey, we’d jump in and participate in this thing. Because I don’t like what’s going on either. So, we don’t like this segregated lunch counters downtown where we have to go spend our money for our clothing and our shoes and so forth. Franklin: Right. But you can’t eat lunch there. Carter: Yeah! Franklin: Yeah. I understand there was a little bit of civil rights activity in Pasco, as well. Did you participate in any of that? Carter: We did not participate in any of the marches or anything like that in Pasco. We were aware of them, and there was a CORE organization here in Richland. CORE, Congress from—what was it called? Franklin: Congress of Racial Equality, right? Carter: Yeah, something like that, yup. We were not a part of that group, but I did join the NAACP. What we did do, Dr. Dallas Barnes and some others, we put together a corporation called the Matrix Corporation and built a facility over in east Pasco called the Matrix Building, which is still there. Our idea was to bring employment opportunities, investment opportunities and a rebuilding of the east Pasco community. Unfortunately, there were some people who didn’t like that idea who lived there, and they bombed the building a week before we was going to have the grand opening. Franklin: Did they ever find out who bombed the building? Carter: No. Franklin: Do you have any idea? Carter: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: And can you say? Carter: No, because I can’t prove it. Franklin: Right. Can you say which community it may have been in? Was it someone from the African American community? Carter: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. What do you think the potential motivation to bomb—to sabotage that building? Carter: Jealousy, hatred for Richland people. There are people who thought, for some reason or another, that we looked down on them and was going to be doing stuff that was not favorable for them, for some reason or another. But at the same time, all of the commercial facilities in east Pasco were owned by whites. And they didn’t have any problem going to that white grocery store over there and spending their money. Or having to drive all the way across town to a white-owned laundromat, when we built a very nice one there. It was one of the nicest ones in the Tri-Cities area there. So it was jealousy and just disgruntlement toward Richland people. Franklin: Interesting. Carter: Even Dr. Dallas Barnes lived right there in that community, and he was a part of the program. Franklin: So it wasn’t just Richland people; it was like a collaboration between Pasco residents and Richland residents. Carter: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. You had mentioned Dallas Barnes before, before the interview and just now. I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your relationship with Dallas Barnes and— Carter: We met Dallas and his wife, Lozie, the first year we were here. In fact, the second week, I think, we were here, because my bride came out here alone on the train with two babies. Franklin: Wow. Carter: And she just fell sick after she got here. She was just exhausted. So I had to put her in Kadlec Hospital and Dallas’ wife, Lozie, stepped up to help me with the babies until I got my bride out of the hospital. That’s how we met. At that time, Dallas was working as a technician out at the 300 Area. Franklin: Oh, okay. And is that how you knew each other, was from—you had met at work? Carter: No, we had not met at work. We just met through—probably one of the nurses at the hospital knew about Dallas’ wife, Lozie, and said, you know, I bet she can help take care of those babies of yours. Franklin: Oh, that’s really great. And you guys became kind of lifelong friends? Carter: Yup, that’s right. Franklin: And you mentioned that Dallas later went on to a career at the university, right? Carter: Yes. Franklin: But still continues to live in Pasco? Carter: No, he lived up in Pullman for 20-something years, probably. Franklin: Oh, right, right, right. Carter: But he left Pasco and went up there and got his bachelor’s degree, and then went on and got his PhD and joined the staff up there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Did you—when did you first purchase a home in Richland? Carter: My first year here. Franklin: Did you have any problems buying a house here in Richland? Carter: No. Franklin: Okay. Carter: At the time, the Richland Village was a rental community. And they decided that they wanted to get out—the outfit that owned it wanted to get out of it and sell all the houses in Richland Village. Which, you know, was hundreds of houses. So the manager of the organization called me and said, Dan, we’re going to sell these houses and you can buy the house that you’re in, or you may prefer to have a larger house, like a three-bedroom, since you have a family. So, we chose to look at one of the three-bedrooms he had, and we bought that. Franklin: What was the address of that house? Carter: I think it was 2027 Newcomer. Franklin: Okay. So right in central Richland, in Richland proper. Carter: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Let’s see here. I’ve heard from others and by doing a little research that Kennewick was kind of an unofficially segregated town in that African Americans were not encouraged to be there after dark or were not encouraged to live there. I’m wondering if you had any experiences with— Carter: When we moved here, as far as we knew, there was not a single black family that lived in Kennewick. However, interesting, through some of the people at work, we were invited to homes over in Kennewick for a social gathering. Franklin: Okay. Carter: One of the first black families to get a home in Kennewick was the Herb Jones family. Herb Jones and his wife, Rendie, Rendata. They purchased a home over in the old part of Kennewick. And as far as we know, they were the very first ones to own—black family to own a home there. I think both Herb and Rendie worked out at Hanford. And I think they were a part of the CORE organization, too. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember about what time that was? Carter: I’m going to guess late ‘60s? Franklin: Okay. When you would go to Kennewick, did you feel welcome in the area? Did you ever get any kind of— Carter: No. Franklin: --undue harassment by the police or anything? Carter: No, never. Franklin: Okay. Carter: And we went there for shopping, you know. Franklin: Okay. How would you describe life in the community of Richland when you first moved here? Carter: Well, like I said, we never experienced an overt negative situation at all. As far as I know, when we came here, Ed Smith and I were the only black professionals here. Franklin: Okay. Carter: And Ed has passed away now. Ed was an engineer, and I was a scientist. As far as I know, we were the only ones back in the mid-‘60s. I came in ’64, and I think Ed and his family came here in probably ’62, ’63, thereabouts. They were here before we were. And we became lifelong friends also. And like I say, Eddie died about five, six years ago. But we went to whatever store we wanted to go to. We were treated with respect. At church, we were well-received. At the time, my wife went to Christ the King, and I went to Central United Protestant, and over the years, she transferred over to Central United Protestant because of the music program. She wanted to get in a music program. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carter: Christ the King didn’t have much of a music program, so she came over there and sang in the choir at Central United Protestant for about 30 years. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carter: So I was never called names or anything like that. I can’t remember anything like that happening to me or to my family. Franklin: While you were here? Carter: Yes. Franklin: But did that kind of thing happen in the South, when you were growing up and when you were in college? Carter: Yeah, things like that happened, but I don’t remember it happening to me. We sort of did all of our activities, if you will, in the black community, the black churches, black restaurants, and movie theaters and so forth. Franklin: Sure. Do you remember any particular community events in Richland that stand out to you when you moved here and the years after? Carter: Well, I became an activist myself. I helped start the first Head Start program for Benton and Franklin Counties. I recall loading stuffed toys in my old station wagon and hauling it over to the Unitarian Church in Kennewick, where we started the program. And that, like I said, that was at the Unitarian Church in Kennewick where we started the Head Start program. Franklin: Okay. Carter: I became the first president of the Community Action Agency for Benton and Franklin Counties. Franklin: What did that agency do? Carter: It still does community services. It’s a community service organization. It does a lot of things. Housing, weatherization, and all kind of community support activities. They’re located in Pasco over there on Court Street. So they’ve been around ever since. I was the first chair of the Benton, Franklin and Walla Walla Private Industry Council. That’s an organization we set up for job training, and became a part of the—grew out of the Job Training Partnership Act. I serve on the state level in that organization, and then when they decided to set up the private Industry Council, then I had the knowledge. So the county commissioners called me in, and we met at the Franklin County courthouse for our first meeting to start this program. And the county commissioner said, Dan, you’re going to have to head this thing up to get it started. And I did, to get it started. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carter: In fact, I even have a plaque from President Reagan for my activities in that program. Franklin: Really? Carter: Yup. Franklin: Wow. How—kind of returning to your Hanford work— Carter: Yeah. Franklin: Going to flip over to the Hanford side of things. It says here that you hold a US patent in one of the PUREX processes. Carter: That’s correct. Franklin: How did that happen? Carter: That’s the work I was doing in the laboratory, doing research work in the laboratory, and stumbled upon something that was—I was working on PUREX work in the laboratory in the 300 Area. Franklin: Was that for Battelle? Carter: Yeah, that was under Battelle, right. Franklin: Without getting too technical, I wonder if you could describe the patent. Carter: It has to do with the suppression of hydrogen generation during the PUREX process. Franklin: And what was the importance of that? Carter: Well, if you get too much hydrogen in the system, you can have an explosion. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, you as a private person, can hold a US patent while doing government work? Carter: You get a patent issued under your name, but the government owns it. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. That’s still really, really cool. So it says here that you began working for GE, and then to Battelle and then to Westinghouse. Carter: Mm-hm. Franklin: How long did you work for Battelle for? Carter: About five years. Franklin: And was it all in the 300 Area? Carter: Yes, all the Battelle work was in the 300 Area. Franklin: And when you transferred to Westinghouse—well, first of all, why did you transfer, and then what did you do? Carter: Because Battelle lost the funding for reactor programs. And at the time, I was working in nuclear fuel on development. So, if I wanted to stay in the reactor-related program where the funding was, I had to go over to Westinghouse. And Westinghouse was awarded the contract to build the FFTF, the Fast Flux Test Facility. So, I jumped to Westinghouse to become a part of the Fast Flux Test Facility design, construction and operation. Franklin: How long did you stay working with the FFTF? Carter: I can’t tell you exactly the number of years, but maybe ten years. I’m not sure it was that long, because I signed up to become a part of the startup crew for the reactor. So I had to go through nuclear power training for that. And a part of that was done down at Idaho Falls. So, I had to go down to Idaho Falls and work down there in the reactor business at the EBR-II reactor down there to qualify. And then when I came back, I was sent out to the 400 Area at the Site to work with Bechtel on constructing the reactor. So, one of the things that we had to know, as a part of the reactor operation program, we had to learn every system in that reactor. And as a result of that knowledge, Bechtel would lean on me when they need to find something in the plant as we were building it. So I walked the plant every day to see what was being built where, and I could work with the design people and the construction people to make sure we were building the reactor properly. Franklin: What was the importance of the FFTF? Carter: It was the leading edge of the Breeder Reactor program. We were going to demonstrate how you could generate more fuel than you burned and also at the same time generate electricity. It was called the Breeder Reactor Program. So, we were the first to do that, and we had the most sophisticated reactor in the world at the time. And then based on the work we were doing at Hanford and the design we came up with, a large breeder reactor was designed to be built at Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And I had to go down there, also. But when the thing with the Carter Administration came in and decided to pull the funding out of that program even though we had the design, a lot of that facility, and all these beautiful stainless steel components built and ready to go in, poured the foundation and ready to start coming up out of the ground with it, and they pulled the funding out of it. Franklin: Ouch. Carter: So that was essentially the deathblow to the Breeder Reactor Program, even though Westinghouse continued to build the FFTF and we got it built and got it up and operating. At the time it became operational, I was not involved because Westinghouse farmed me out all the time as a consultant to the Department of Energy, to United Nuclear, to Rockwell Hanford—I worked for almost ten years as a consultant. Franklin: What kinds of things did you consult on? Carter: It had to do with documentation of systems and components, like when DOE was going to build the, what was called the B-WIP program, where they were going to dig this big hole out in the 200 Area and go down into the basalt— Franklin: The Basalt Waste Isolation Project. Carter: Yep, yep. I was—DOE had me to come in to work with them to write up documents on design and construction for that project. So I worked with them on that. And in fact, DOE even sent me down to Puerto Rico for a trip to go down there for a while. Franklin: Why did you go down to Puerto Rico? Carter: Oh, they wanted me to represent them down there at a big conference. Franklin: Must’ve been fun. Carter: I thought it was the worst conference I’d ever been to. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Why is that? Carter: So, it was terrible. I wrote it up as being very terrible. But my wife and baby enjoyed it. [LAUGHTER] They went along, too, and they had a great time out on the beach. Franklin: Was it terrible because of the technical aspects of the conference, or was it a— Carter: Yeah, because of that, and the people who they had as keynotes—speakers and so forth. They were just terrible. Franklin: Okay. That’s funny. Carter: And I let them know it. Franklin: Okay. And when did you—you eventually retired, right, in 1996? Carter: Yeah, ’96, I retired, because we lost our contract with DOE. Franklin: Who did? Carter: Westinghouse. Franklin: Okay. Carter: And Fluor-Daniels and their buddies were coming in, and I felt that, no, I didn’t think I was going to fit into that bunch. At the time, I was doing a lot of science education work for Westinghouse. I traveled extensively to the Washington, D.C. and the southeast, working with colleges and universities doing science education work. Served on like the College of Engineering Advisory Council at Southern University, for example. Franklin: So you were kind of moving out of direct Hanford operations at that time with Westinghouse. Carter: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Westinghouse left. Okay, and what did you do after retirement? Carter: My wife had a business going, and I decided to support her. Franklin: Okay. And what’s that—what was the business? Carter: She had a National Car Rental for Tri-Cities and Yakima for a while. And then she operated a post office for the West Richland community for a while, and then she went out a bought a travel agency and set up a tour company called Genie Tours that had—and she built up a fleet of almost a dozen tour buses. And it tours throughout the western part of the United States. And she also did tours back to, like, Branson, but she didn’t take her own bus. Franklin: Okay. Carter: She would fly them back there and she would charter over somebody’s back there where she did that. But back here, many trips to Portland, Seattle, down to California. Like when WSU played in the Rose Bowl, both times, she took one of our buses down there with people on it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Your wife was quite entrepreneurial. Carter: Yeah. Franklin: All of your kids—how many children do you have? Carter: Three. Franklin: Three. And they all grew up in Richland and— Carter: Yup. Franklin: --attended Richland schools. Carter: Hanford. Franklin: Hanford High. Carter: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did they ever talk about experiencing any kind of discrimination or segregation or anything due to the— Carter: Nothing serious, you know. There were probably a few occasions where there may have been a name-calling or stuff like that. But, no, they did okay. And they ended up going from Hanford to WSU Pullman. Franklin: Okay. All three? Carter: All three, except for our youngest son decided, nah, I want to do something different. So he went into the Air Force and studied for a little while, and then he came back out and formed himself a band out of Spokane and bummed around. And finally decided, you know, it’s not doing too well. So he came back home and now he’s working out at Hanford. Franklin: Okay, kind of continuing in the family tradition. Oh, shoot, I had a question. What was it? Oh, and then you also, at some point, joined the B Reactor Museum Association. Carter: Correct. Franklin: And when did you join that group? Carter: Right when it started. Franklin: Oh, so back in the ‘90s. Carter: Yeah, wherever it was. I don’t remember, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay, okay. Did you play any roles within the association? Carter: No, I did not. Franklin: Okay, just a supporter? Carter: Yeah, I was too busy with other activities, you know. When I joined my wife with her tour company, it was all I could do to try to keep up with that operation and help her keep up with that operation. Franklin: Oh, I bet. Running a business takes a lot of work. Carter: Especially that particular business, because she got buses going and coming, and you have breakdowns and you have situations at the hotels for your people, you got to make sure they’re taken care of. She used to do the spring training for Mariners baseball down in Phoenix every year. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah! Does she still operate the business? Carter: No, we had to shut that down. My bride is now suffering from Alzheimer’s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Okay. Carter: So I’m her principal caregiver now. And she requires 24/7 care. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. I just have a couple questions left, kind of larger reflective questions. In what ways did security and secrecy at Hanford impact your work on, or daily life? Carter: Well, I can’t say it impacted. We know that if you had a Q clearance, there’s certain information you had access to, and you couldn’t talk about it with people that didn’t have Q clearance or the need-to-know. So, I knew that, and I worked accordingly. Franklin: Did you have a Q clearance? Carter: Yes. Franklin: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Carter: That one of the most talented group of scientists and engineers anywhere in the world were right here at Hanford. And they shared their knowledge with you. I learned probably more from coworkers than I learned at the university. Franklin: How so? Carter: Because they knew what was going on. And they would help me understand processes and how technical things worked. Franklin: Was there ever—did you ever have any fear or trepidation about working with nuclear materials-- Carter: No. Franklin: --at all when you came to take the job at Hanford? Carter: No, never. Franklin: Did your wife at all? Carter: No, no. Franklin: Okay. Carter: In fact, when I worked at 325 Building, I was sometimes looked upon as the mad scientist. Because on occasions, I would have a little minor accident and blow up something and fumes coming out into the hallway. [CHUCKLING] And people coming, Dan, you okay, you okay? Yup, everything’s cool, everything’s cool. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Kind of a laissez-faire attitude to industrial hazard. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, segregation, and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Carter: Well, I feel that my bride and I were very fortunate in our family, because, like I say, we were treated well, we were well-respected, and we had opportunities to participate in a lot of community activities. My bride did, also, too. She was very active over at CBC, for example. The Martin Luther King monument over there, she was one of the persons who helped raised the money to build that monument over there at CBC. She served on the Foundations board for several years. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carter: So, yeah, we became a part of the community, and I think we made some significant contribution to our community here. And as a result, we choose to still live here. Franklin: Yeah, I would say so. Well, Dan, thank you so much for coming and speaking with us about your life and your work at Hanford. I really appreciate it. Carter: It’s my pleasure to share whatever knowledge I can share about the Hanford Project and the great work that’s been done out there, and the wonderful, highly technical people that worked out there. As a result, I got a chance to meet some outstanding scientists from around the world: some scientists from England that came over and we worked with them. I did some research with a scientist from Berkeley, who ended up at WSU Pullman and he tried to get me to leave Hanford and join his research team up at Pullman. But I chose not to do so. I met Bob Sanko, from Connell, who—he and his other colleague who were authors of textbooks—tried to get me to come up and join their research team up at Connell and I chose to stay here. So, as a result, my work at Hanford, I got a chance to meet a lot of outstanding scientists. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you again, Dan. Carter: My pleasure. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area PUREX 200 Area HEHF (Hanford Environmental Health Foundation) FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 400 Area B-WIP (Basalt Waste Isolation Plant) 325 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1964- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1964-1996 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dan Carter Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Chemistry African American colleges and universities Segregation Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Dan Carter moved to Richland, Washington in 1964 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1964-1996. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/19/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcc1c5b0c760d1762a7a35a41a36954e0.jpg 351007d7be79050d9e63f8cc203ca4ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Andrew Reisenauer Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Bauman: Let's start, if we could, by just having you say your name, and then spell it for us. Andrew Reisenauer: My name is Andrew Reisenauer. Last name is R-E-I-S-E-N-A-U-E-R. Bauman: Thank you. And my name is Bob Bauman. Today's date is November 6, 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by you just telling us about how you came here? How you came to work at Hanford? What brought you here, and when? Reisenauer: During 1950, I was a student at Washington State University, on campus at Pullman. And I was invited down here as a summer employee for the summer of 1950. I went back to school and graduated in '51, and came right back to Richland. During that year, 1950, I worked at the health department for the City of Richland. At that time, an employee of General Electric, of course. And it involved sanitation inspections around Richland, milk supplies up in the valley-- Yakima Valley and Moses Lake area. Just general safety and sanitation involved in all the transition of the workers from the old town sites of Hanford, Richland North-- North Richland trailer park area-- and also the development of Richland. Because at that time, the uptown shopping district was all under construction. Restaurants were being opened. Generally just everything that involved sanitation and health. Mosquito control was just being started. That was under our control. There's a huge influx of people, you've got problems with sanitation and food supplies. Food supplies particularly, when you're dealing with 50,000 people. You've got to supply them with tons and tons of food coming in daily. For instance, the milk supply-- that's something that you can't ship for great distances, like you can other products. The Hanford Engineering Works shipped in dairy farms, supported dairy farms. They built milk supply plants in Sunnyside and Moses Lake. They subsidized the farmers to bring in large numbers of cattle. I mean, you don't just dump people in and don't have-- in a place like this, where there's small towns and very, very scattered population. The sanitarians from the Richland area were inspecting all the dairy farms all the way up through Sunnyside and up into the Moses Lake area, just to give us a decent supply of fresh produce. There's any number of those kind of things that went on during the areas when all the people are transitioning from town site of Hanford and into the North Richland trailer park, which had 2,500 trailers or more out there. With bathhouses and laundry facilities for those people were built in to separate housing or block areas, so that you got all the sanitation facilities have to be supplied, have to be inspected. You've got a brand new school out there, John Ball School, which was just nothing but a quonset hut put together. And along with all the schools that were being built in the City of Richland, we were training food handlers, for instance. Food handler classes, and making sure that the inspections got into the schools. And there's just a wide, wide variety of environmental problems. Bauman: Sounds like a pretty challenging job. Reisenauer: Well, even water supply. Because all the water supply in Richland and North Richland was furnished by wells. The treatment plant at Richland wasn't built until '55 or so. So you had well after well. And a lot of these wells were recharged by recharge basins with Yakima River Valley water, and Columbia River water. Places like just west of here. That little valley over toward just west of George Washington Way. There's still a couple wells in there that are being part of the Richland water supply. A lot of that water was being pumped out of the Columbia River into the basin above the wells. The wells are probably 75 feet deep. And they were using that as the method of cleaning the water, keeping the fish and everything else out of the wells. There's the area along Wellsian Way was all recharge ponds. Because there's a number of wells among the buildings down there. They're still being used. But the recharge basin has been closed, when they discontinued the irrigation water through the City of Richland. Few people know that there's a tunnel underneath Carmichael High School, for instance, that supplied irrigation water, and water to those recharge basins. Bauman: Yeah, I didn't know that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So when you were here, then, in 1950 as a student, right? You were-- Reisenauer: I was just a summer employee. Bauman: Right. What sorts of things were you going out and inspecting? Reisenauer: Oh yes. I inspected a lot of the restaurants. I was a bacteriology and sanitary engineering student up at Washington State. Bauman: Sounds like a great experience, then? Reisenauer: Oh, yeah. Learned a lot. Very applicable to my studies up there. Bauman: So you did that in the summer of 1950, you went back to school? Reisenauer: I went back to school. And then, when you came back here to work-- Came back right away after graduation. Bauman: And working for the health department again, or--? Reisenauer: The health department, yes. I stayed with the health department until 1956 or so, shortly before the transition the town into a normal town. Bauman: And during those years working for the health department, what were the biggest challenges you had? It sounds like there were a lot of challenges. What were the most challenging parts for the health department? Reisenauer: Probably keeping up with the necessary state requirements for inspecting dairy farms and restaurants. At that time, we were also building the new swimming pool up on the hill. There was an original swimming pool in the old town site of Richland, down in Howard Amon Park. It was built very close to the river. And it was small, and it was not a safe pool, because it transitioned water between the river and the swimming pool. When the river was high, it leaked like I sieve. So it had to be replaced. There's things like that, just innumerable-- Bauman: How large was the health department? How many employees are we talking about? Reisenauer: There were probably-- well, there's also with the health department, they had the school nurses that were—there was probably seven, eight school nurses. And there were like three sanitarians, and the health officer. Bauman: And what was your job title after you graduated college and came back? Reisenauer: Sanitarian. That was the job title. Bauman: And so when that transitioned to being an independent city, right? Reisenauer: Yes. Bauman: What did you do at that point? Reisenauer: The health department was turned over to Ben Franklin County Health District. I left the health department, because they had the personnel. They had hired personnel into their department to take over. I moved out into the area as a chemist, and worked with the geochemistry outfit out there. Wells, drilling new wells out there. Tracking contamination through the wells, of radioactive contamination and stuff like that. Bauman: And so where would these wells drill, then? Reisenauer: Excuse me? Bauman: Where were the wells drilled? Different places on the site, or--? Reisenauer: Oh no. I'm talking about the wells out on the Hanford project, for the facilities out there. And we did a lot of soil chemistry work, along with that. Soil chemistry, soil physics. Bauman: And you said you would sort of measure a contamination also, as part of your work? In the soil and water, or--? What? You measured contamination? Is that one of the things you did, also? Reisenauer: Well, the contamination out there was radioactive. But a great deal different than tracking contamination for the wells in the city. Bauman: So how long did you do that, then? How long did you work as a geochemist? Reisenauer: The job transitioned from geochemistry into actually the groundwater modeling area, where we were doing—we built computer models for the movement of groundwater contamination throughout the [INAUDIBLE]. Where's the water moving from, and where's it move to? And how much contamination is being carried along with it? We developed these groundwater models, such that we were starting to apply them through-- when Battelle took over, we started moving this type of thing into-- looking at county and problems and things all over the United States. I modelled groundwater movement in Brookhaven, New York, upstate New York, Nebraska, Florida, all over the United States. But it all started here. Bauman: And did you find significant contamination of groundwater? Reisenauer: Oh, yes, as far as-- it'd go through the soil down here. Nothing significant that I know of ever moved to the Columbia River. It stayed pretty close to the production plants out there. There's still a lot of that going on out there now. Bauman: So did you work in different areas of the site, then? Reisenauer: Yes, yes. Bauman: Just measuring different places on site? Reisenauer: Yeah, I started out there in 200 West area. But then when I moved out of there into the 300 area, my office moved downtown, up in the federal building, and then back out here to Battelle when Battelle buildings were built. Bauman: I want to go back to when you came here in 1950 as a student. What was the town of Richland like at the time? How would you describe the place? Reisenauer: Well, it's kind of still like a frontier town, somewhat. Everybody that was here had come from somewhere else. People were very, very friendly, because they didn't-- came here and not-- everybody was sort of new. The town site, of course, was being run by General Electric. Everything-- you've probably heard that story before. You can never tell from one day to the next what you're going to be doing the next day. You could plan, but you couldn't continue your plan most of the time because something else would crop up. Bauman: And when you first came here, what sort of housing did you have? Reisenauer: Well, when I came in '50, I lived in a low-level wooden barracks with the construction workers near the Camp Hanford army camp. And when I moved into town, I was in one of the two-story barracks buildings. Because I was single at that time. And shortly after, well, about September the next year, I acquired one end of a ‘B’ house. Which, I got married that year, so I acquired in-town housing. Bauman: Was there much to do here in Richland in the early 1950s? Reisenauer: What we did in the 1950s-- I had a very large backyard behind the house. And when I started having children that was the main playground in the neighborhood. But the different organizations around town, like the medical division and production, some of the other places like that, had ball teams, softball teams. We had softball teams, we had volleyball teams. There was not a whole lot to do, unless you made it up yourselves. Of course, I did a lot of fishing and stuff like that, hunting. Bauman: So Hanford was a place where-- a lot of security was a part of working at Hanford. Did that impact you at all, in terms of your work? Reisenauer: Oh, yes. I had a clearance for moving around out in the area, what they call the forward area. And I had my badge and my pencils and all that sort of thing, if I get into radiation zones or something like that, I had all the-- Bauman: Did you ever have to wear any protective clothing for safety, in terms of certain aspects of your job at all? Reisenauer: Very seldom. One or two times I would get into that type of thing. Bauman: And so how long did you work at Hanford then? When did you-- Reisenauer: 39 and 1/2 years. Bauman: So '89, '90, somewhere in there? Reisenauer: What? Bauman: So 1989, 1990, somewhere in there you retired? Reisenauer: Yeah, I'm 89. Bauman: No, I mean, what year you retired? Reisenauer: What year did I retire? I retired in '88. But I stayed on with one of the subcontractors for another year and a half, two years. Bauman: And you started working for GE. What other contractors did you work for? Did you work for Battelle? Reisenauer: Just Battelle. [INAUDIBLE]. Battelle took over the Hanford laboratories. I went with Battelle. Bauman: So for a good part of the time you were working there, the focus was on production. And at some point, that started to shift to less production, and then cleanup, I guess. Did the shift in mission impact your work at all? Reisenauer: Not really. I was far enough away from the production that we continued doing just exactly the same. Just right on. Bauman: President Kennedy came in 1963 to dedicate the N reactor. I wonder, were you there that day? Do you remember that at all? Reisenauer: Oh yes. Yeah. Bauman: And what do you remember about his visit, or that day? Reisenauer: Well, I could take part of the family out into the area. It was a huge crowd out there. Bauman: I wonder, what was the most challenging aspect of the work that you did at Hanford? And maybe what was the most rewarding part of what you did? Reisenauer: When I was working with the health department, just keeping the day-to-day things that had to be done this day for that day, because you couldn't really plan tremendous-- very far in advance as to what you're going to be doing. And when I was working with the geophysical part of the-- the geochemistry part of there was developing the mathematics and the computer programs to be able to track water movement, and the contamination. That was a brand new area just being developed nationwide. And we built the first groundwater models ever heard of in the United States, to be able to do that work. Bauman: Did the technology change over the years, in terms of-- Reisenauer: Oh, yes. Bauman: --measuring that sort of thing? How did that change? Could you describe that at all? Reisenauer: Well, being able to incorporate the large amount of data that's necessary, and to develop the technique to get the right kind of data that's necessary for that. For instance, one of the last jobs I did was to develop a groundwater model for an area in the middle of Nebraska. A naval ammunition depot had been built there. Covered an area of about 75 square miles. And the soils and area were quite similar to the Hanford project here. So my models were very applicable to that area. But when I went and looked at the area to find out whether-- they knew they had explosives like RDX and TNT and degreasing agents that they'd contaminated into the groundwater. And the idea was, where's it moving, how fast is it moving, which way is it going? Trying to just to gather that data. And one of the hardest parts was trying to develop a computer system back there to be able to run it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Were there any events or incidents, things that happened during your time working at Hanford that really stand out to you? Reisenauer: I guess I'm not quite clear as to what you-- Bauman: Like if there was anything that happened-- it could be something humorous, or something that happened during your time working there that just has always stuck in your mind as a really unique thing that happened while you were there. Reisenauer: While I was working in the chemistry lab, doing some testing on some of the waste, the old PBP process, we were looking at every batch of waste that came out of there. I was working, trying to get an analysis about a strontium that was being put out to the groundwater, or put out with all the old cribs. I'm using the fuming nitric acid in this process. A bunch of samples that were radioactive in the hood. And while I was by pipetting some of this from fuming nitric acid into these test tubes, one drop of that fell off and hit a cellulose test tube that was in the hood. I had instant fire. Radioactive samples in this hand, fuming nitric acid in this hand, and a fire in the middle. What do you do first? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Put the fuming nitric acid back there. You put the sample down here. Then you take care of the fire. [LAUGHTER] Reisenauer: One very few humorous incident-- in that same laboratory, one of the other chemists was trying to analyze a particle-- particle analysis on some well samples, dirt samples. And one of these required putting a spot-- well, they say, 10 or 20 grams of soil-- putting it into a solution of essentially vinegar. And then he was going to shake them overnight on this shaking table. This shaking table was built like a rotary. And the border would force it one way, and the clutch would give out. And the spring would bring that back, so it would rock back and forth. You got to shake this all night. He set it all up. We were just ready to move out of the laboratory, and catch the bus into town. We were just checking ourselves out. This thing was shaking away just fine. And all of a sudden a spring came loose. This thing is started around like a centrifuge. And it started throwing those bottles, this small bubbles, all over the lab. He had 24 bottles on that thing. And we were down behind the benches, ducking bottles. When the final, last one finally came off, I says, now what do we do? He says, we go home and clean this up tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And no one got hit by any flying bottles? Reisenauer: No, nobody got hit by flying-- there was only three of us in the lab at that time. Bauman: As you look back over your, what'd you say, 39 and 1/2 years working at Hanford-- how would you overall assess your time there? How was it as a place to work? Reisenauer: Well, it was a very pleasant place to work. Early on, we had a lot of freedom in how we approached things. And you can point out where things needed to be done, and follow up and try to get funding for those particular projects. And usually you didn't have any trouble doing it, because there was so much that we needed to be known that wasn't known. Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about yet, in terms of your work [INAUDIBLE] for the health department, or working as a geochemist, or any of the things you did there that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to share, or think would be important to share? Reisenauer: I can't think of anything. We've pretty much covered most of it along the way. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and talking with us. I appreciate it. Reisenauer: Yeah, well, I hope I contributed a little bit to your-- Bauman: Thanks for that. Reisenauer: --your project. <a href="https://youtu.be/4eyjWy-hwng">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1988 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Andrew Reisenauer Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear waste Nuclear waste disposal Description An account of the resource Andrew Reisenauer moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/06/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3ba0c530bc4bcb884d3aae9f730c68d2.jpg 56c9303d67bff8b640b1d387d3caaf2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maureen Hamilton, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource Items donated by Maureen Hamilton to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/807">Maureen Hamilton oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lab Work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Subject The topic of the resource Industrial hygiene; Laboratory Description An account of the resource Woman doing lab work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2A002 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd13168b8b593850c509686187d888639.jpg 66b87a95762f65399e4d5774e8c3a167 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maureen Hamilton, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource Items donated by Maureen Hamilton to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/807">Maureen Hamilton oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lab Work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Subject The topic of the resource Industrial hygiene; Laboratory Description An account of the resource Woman doing lab work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2A003 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb33d81a2b4492f646d99a05e3083d6c9.jpg bf8e9f441744e94e7fa7b6c636de46c2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maureen Hamilton, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource Items donated by Maureen Hamilton to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/807">Maureen Hamilton oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lab Work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Subject The topic of the resource Industrial hygiene; Laboratory Description An account of the resource Woman doing lab work at Hanford Environmental Health Foundation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2A004 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4f49aadf9f2bc676e2f8fd270cb69775.jpg 8e10f5a34d2d1ee7860b6d6d982d8be7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maureen Hamilton, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource Items donated by Maureen Hamilton to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/807">Maureen Hamilton oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Columbia Center Mall Aerial Description An account of the resource Aerial photograph of Columbia Center Mall in 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2A005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2f8618137d41df7c12f31f98b55ed99b.pdf ac34acae52a30d9d2e2a7289751be166 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maureen Hamilton, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource Items donated by Maureen Hamilton to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/807">Maureen Hamilton oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Article on Hanford Environmental Health Foundation accreditation Description An account of the resource Newspaper article on accreditation of Hanford Environmental Health Foundation industrial hygiene lab Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2A006 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F404f63b20e52bfbf9261db701c245aae.jpg dc80e97fb5f949559f9dcbf57bb85120 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Edward Milliman Description An account of the resource Items donated by Edward Milliman to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/817">Edward Milliman Oral History Interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boy with dog Subject The topic of the resource Children; Dogs Description An account of the resource Edward Milliman, as a child, playing with the family dog 'Poncho'. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Circa 1940s Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2E002 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4780d6cb5f7aa128c9fa5f81206a02bf.jpg 98023a77e6351d2b7d8761f04737a747 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Edward Milliman Description An account of the resource Items donated by Edward Milliman to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/817">Edward Milliman Oral History Interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hamster in Smoking Tube Subject The topic of the resource Animal experimentation Description An account of the resource Edward Milliman loading a hamster into a smoking tube for asbestos exposure testing. Photograph number PNL 711513-3. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2E009 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F311b3a2cc4d836d316652ef852c5ddb2.jpg f0740bed607e9e5d5ad2bc4ba9d94721 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Edward Milliman Description An account of the resource Items donated by Edward Milliman to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/817">Edward Milliman Oral History Interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Exposure Chamber Subject The topic of the resource Animal experimentation Description An account of the resource Edward Milliman operating an exposure chamber for inhalation test studies. Photograph number 78F013-1cn. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2E010 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc4f7be340d7ec8a7ec8061a2a122ddbb.jpg 7740d9343daa354d727974c33e893d5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Photograph of Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J001 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0db57f2950e731d01d6a95670217d007.jpg 098ce582177cb05fa2536eef4f7ce09b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fuel Rod Testing Description An account of the resource Fuel rod testing with Wanda Munn on left. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J002 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fef3a4d1bb05e124c52260a8adb3997f3.jpg c77504d05ebf29c2d718aefd971cdb4e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking on behalf of the Society of Women Engineers Description An account of the resource Wanda Munn on left. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J004 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1d577138d374ba2316d2982796bc8764.jpg 89ef6dcf1c8bdc880d8d8c44463795f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda I. Munn Description An account of the resource Business card for Wanda Munn, Senior Engineer, International Programs, Engineering Development Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J006 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb7aa53396df30fa89c9fa0ef71d5660.jpg f825d92d00b20df4bdd6451271525ec9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oregon Chemical Demilitarization Citizens Advisory Commission Description An account of the resource Wanda Munn, Vice Chair of the Oregon Chemical Demilitarization Citizens Advisory Commission. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J008 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbdcc8ee936a269aec351ee76749bc65c.jpg 18245b56fbc0dda4ff4882ecd8e8a46a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Remarkable Richland! Resilient! Resourceful! Ready! Description An account of the resource Back of Wanda Munn's Councilmember business card that projects growth and natural development in the city of Richland. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J010 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbd8d051aabf5b6c428f871e869f9ba32.jpg 7f8bf2f64afccc154a68309ae662938c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukranian Business Card (front) Description An account of the resource Front of business card for Wanda Munn in Ukranian. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J011 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb07d37bc93c7c7268c2139baa24cb10c.jpg 1d087e942b483fdacc99d662e1aaeebe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukranian Business Card (back) Description An account of the resource Back of business card for Wanda Munn in Ukranian. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J012 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F71b7ac47ee5662624297377ece3b1bd7.tif 4883f7001c872336dfd8ee7385f94441 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource You, Too Can Parlay Your Hanford Experience into a Good Job. Apply soon! Description An account of the resource Retirement "gag" gift given to Wanda Munn. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J013 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4707405aee6198642ffa8a699a230fb9.jpg 59f25fdabd7cbdf07807e1354e90bff7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Women Who Inspire Description An account of the resource Short article about Wanda Munn, "Advanced Reactor Division engineer and active public speaker on nuclear issues who also takes part in youth activities, including positively portraying engineering careers to young women." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J016 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd00277c5b24a926493f9a872372202d8.jpg c5e5da85e8c285dd442e24e653b6e11c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Good Guys Wear White Description An account of the resource Clipping of Wanda Munn demonstrating a hat calling attention to Nuclear Operations Safety. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J018 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdfccdfa5f6c5495d009d3e5f2b347363.jpg ff0d162cc808e036ca97aa80281b198d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource Items donated by Wanda Munn to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Wanda Munn Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/818">Wanda Munn Oral History Interview</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Assembled Chemical Weapons Assessment Program "Cerfiticate of Appreciation" Description An account of the resource Awarded to Wanda Munn for her "outstanding effort and performance as an ACWA Dialogue Member" Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2J024