43 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe010761b47ac7cc54f579735db5c770a.jpg 2f425c361102f419df01cfc683b2a3f6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2548701e4c6492a286ec7c7c33ee0640.mp4 3e9fb1701f202198c16a0255163944b6 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Hess Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Hess Description An account of the resource An interview with David Hess conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe562453b5a9810bb8400e0a780749652.jpg 19c463c013a7a2ea8e9413b017cfd710 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd4988a2f752925db95342438fe97dd91.mp4 7a3c130b03e6994e51dc0c9d0d65fb73 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Okay, great. So let’s start off here. First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, my first name is Delbert L. Ballard. Leo for center. D-E-L-B-E-R-T, B-A-L-L-A-R-D. And I go by Del, commonly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: All right, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview here on February 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Ballard about his experiences working on the Hanford site, living in this community. First of all, can you start us off just—walk us through your life in sort of a brief term before you came to this area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I was raised on a dryland wheat farm in Montana, so I know what work is all about. And I was a student in a little high school that was only seven of us in our graduating class. So I was sort of a country boy, and went to college at Montana State University. And I graduated from there in 1951. Just prior to that, the General Electric Company, of course, had been there to do interviews. They were scoping for—recruiting for engineers and I was a civil engineer graduate. There was other recruiters through, too. I had an offer from a San Francisco shipyard, and another from the Soil Conservation Service in Montana. But I wanted to get a job with GE. So I’d had the interview, but no really positive award or recognition that they were going to give me an offer. They were interviewing a large number of people. So graduation day came around and I still hadn’t gotten a letter from GE. But the mail came that morning, and lo and behold, there it was. So I was really pleased at that. So my initial job right out of college was coming to Hanford and working for General Electric Company as a rotational training—in the rotational training program. They had hired that year, the previous year, actually ’49, ’50 and ’51, they had hired about 300 or 350 tech grads. And I was one of the later ones getting here; I didn’t get here until July. So most of the good jobs were assigned. But in the rotational training program, my first assignment was a rather mundane assignment to the transportation department. Next one was a more interesting job with the inspection department. That was over in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, Hanford was undergoing I believed what they called the Korean expansion. The Korean War was underway and in full force at that time when I got out of school. As a matter of fact, I thought I was going to be drafted, but I tried to enlist and—I’m diverting here a little bit, but—tried to enlist in the Air Force to be a pilot, but my eyes weren’t good enough, so I got rejected for that. [LAUGHTER] So when I knew that the GE job was a deferred job, I thought, well, that’s an alternate I’d just as soon pursue. So anyway when I got here on the rotational training program, that’s what it was. Individuals were assigned to different locations for training purposes and for filling job needs. The second assignment was, as I said, inspection department in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, they were fabricating—the shipyard was fabricating the biological shield blocks for the C Reactor. It was one of the expansion efforts at Hanford, increasing the production capacity. So that was an interesting job over there at the shipyard doing inspection and learning a lot about inspection techniques and components and so forth. Another month after that, I was rotating around the Seattle area inspecting other components that were being manufactured for the C Reactor. C Reactor, as you know, was the one that was built right alongside of the B Reactor out at Hanford. It started up in ’53, I believe. But out of the rotational training program, I was assigned into construction area out in the 300 Area. They were fabricating laboratories for building the laboratories out there. Radiochemistry, radiometallurgy, pile tech, machine shop, and a library at that area of the Hanford—300 Area was just under construction. So I got assigned to help in the field engineering in that job. It was an interesting project. I learned a lot there in that job. And from there I went into other project engineering work, including in later years, the K Reactors were under construction and I was involved in laying up the graphite of that reactor, K East Reactors. I stayed in project engineering with GE all my life—or all my employment time was with GE. They left here in ’64. Yeah, Battelle came in ’65. Two of the projects that I followed after K Reactors, one of them was the critical mass lab in the 300 Area, which was a facility for evaluating critical shapes and sizes for plutonium missiles. It was a research job, research facility. That project was a lump sum construction and plant forces for the completion of putting the process equipment in. The next job I had was the High Temperature Lattice Test reactor in the 300 Area. That’s a reactor that probably hasn’t gotten much publicity. It was a small graphite reactor. But that was a job I was very proud of, because I was the sole project engineering function at the time. The design was done by an organization that was just brought on as GE was being phased out. It was the Vitro Engineering Company. They had a detailed design of the job, and the construction was done lump sum, and then J. Jones did the reactor installation. I can tell quite a bit of detail about that reactor, if you’re interesting. [LAUGHTER] But it was an experimental facility also for evaluating different lattice spacings for graphite moderator reactors. It was electrically heated—it operated up at 1,000 degrees centigrade, so that graphite, looking through the peepholes in the reactor, you could see white hot graphite, which is sort of an interesting thing to see. But that project was not large in comparison to today’s funding levels. But it was a three- to four-million-dollar project. I finished the job and closed it out with less than $200 left on the books and no overrun. [LAUGHTER] So I got a commendation for that job, which I was quite proud of. But from there, then I diverted into other project engineering jobs. One was in Idaho Falls. We had a test facility over there, putting in test loops in the engineering test reactor. That was closer to reactor operations type work. We had to modify an operating reactor. But that was some of my interesting project years before I got into jobs later on, which was the FFTF and the FMEF. Fuels and Materials Exam Facility. I always make the statement that every project, or every job that I worked on up until the FFTF was completed and put into operation. Every project after FFTF was shut down and closed down before it was completed. [LAUGHTER] So that was kind of a breaking point for me. Hanford, of course, reached its peak in production, and I can talk something about that as far as reactor operations is concerned. But I wasn’t really in operations, I was in engineering, and had jobs all over the Project. So I never was tied down to one location. It was interesting. So I had an interesting career in a lot of different projects. I enjoyed my work, and had a good time and a good married life and I can go into that, too, if you wish. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: So you say you were with GE this whole time? You didn’t switch over to different contractors as they came in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, yes—no. I just with GE until they left. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: And then Battelle came in ’65. So I was with Battelle for ’65 until ’70 when Westinghouse took over the Breeder Program. Initially, Westinghouse was just brought in for the Fast Flux Test Reactor, to manage that. And I happened to be working on a development job. That’s one I haven’t mentioned yet. [LAUGHTER] When Westinghouse came in, I was assigned—that was my first manager job. I had a group, or a section in the 321 Building in the 300 Area, and a job which was identified as the hydraulic core mockup. And we designed, built and operated models to evaluate the design configuration for the FFTF. So we built water models to look at a lot of different features: the reactor vessel arrangement, and the core arrangement and the structure. And the inlet planning and outlet planning. We built several models. The two biggest ones were the inlet model, which evaluated the sodium distribution in the inlet planning and feeding characteristics for the fuels channels. I worked on that job for seven years. And then during that time, of course, FFTF came under construction. Our group actually influenced the design which was being done by Westinghouse back east. There was a lot of the features in the arrangements and shapes of the vessel and the flow distribution and the core that was determined by that hydraulic core mockup test facility. Then when they started putting the reactor together, I was assigned to construction out in 400 Area. I spent the whole year inside the reactor vessel, helping the engineer put the parts together. One of our humorous comments about FFTF was, from our perspective was FFTF, do you know what that stands for? Yeah, it sounds for feel, file, to fit. [LAUGHTER] Fill all the tight tolerances and all the arrangements necessary to make everything fit and throw it together. It was well-engineered and well-designed, but it was still—engineering problems had to be resolved in the field. So that was another interesting project. Following that, then I spent seven years on the FMEF, the Fuels and Materials Exam Facility, designing and coordinating the design—the management of the design, which was done by an off-plant architect engineer. And there, again, that was a project that was not completed. It was shut down when the Breeder Program was curtailed. So, following that, I could go into more details where we did for various and sundry work, but it was all toward the new mission for the Hanford site, which was cleanup, starting in that field in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I retired, officially, in ’89. But I worked consulting for four years after that. So my career actually spanned from 1951 to 1994. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: How disappointing was it when FFTF got canceled? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Pardon me? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Was it disappointing when FFTF got canceled? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: It was very discouraging, yes, that they were going to close it down. When they drilled a hole in the core support structure, like drilling a hole in my heart. [LAUGHTER] Matter of fact, I’ve got some pictures to show that I was the last person in the FFTF vessel before they closed it up and started it filling it with sodium. Matter of fact, after that closure—after the photograph that I have, I’ll be happy to show you—they had an accident with the fuel charging machine which went up to the top of the travel and the upper limits which failed and it dropped down on the core and broke some of the components that I was so—[LAUGHTER]—proud of getting installed properly. Core support structure. And we had to go in there and do some repairs. But then I, after that, I left the FFTF and went to work on the design of the FMEF. [SIGH] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Did life sort of change day-to-day when you switched these contractors? How different was it working for these different companies? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: The only change that I could see was the difference of the color of the paycheck. [LAUGHTER] As a matter of fact, when we transferred from—let’s see if I can remember which contract that was—was it GE to Battelle or Battelle to Westinghouse? I don’t remember, but the end of that day, we were terminated and I happened to be at a party down in one of the local pubs which I didn’t very often frequent. But somebody said, who do you work for? And I said, at the moment I’m unemployed. Because that was the day we left one contractor and started with the next one. But the transitions were quite smooth, I would say. I mean, of course, policies changed and your managers changed. At one time, in a two-year period when Westinghouse came in, I think I had 13 different first level and second level managers above me change without in those two-year period. So there was a lot of personnel changes. But a lot of us working closer to the ground floor, there was very little change. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: So, let’s back up a moment. What were your first impressions of Hanford and the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I came here in the summer—it was in July. I got here on July 3rd of 1951. I was assigned to the barracks out in North Richland—women’s barracks as a matter of fact. That’s when all the dormitory rooms were filled up in Richland for the men’s dorms. So I was assigned out there for my quarters. The next day, I learned that you didn’t have to drive the buses around, you could ride the city buses or the plant buses. Plant buses, to ride to the area was five cents, and city buses, I don’t remember whether they were five cents or free. I rode that bus the next day that I went to work, and it was 105 degrees that day. And I thought, my lord, what have I gotten myself into? [LAUGHTER] This is horrible temperature! But I was young and willing to accept anything that came my way, so I guess I didn’t think it was too serious a problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: How aware were you of the mission of Hanford before you came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Very little, probably. I knew that it was working on the war effort, but at that time, nobody really—well, yeah, I guess it was known they were producing plutonium or weapons for atomic weapons, but as far as the details concerned, I knew very little. As any engineer—young man right out of college might be. Because I didn’t know what the plant—the structure was. But they gave—they told us and we got the information from the co-workers and the other students. It was quite interesting, because all the youngsters that were working, everybody—not the majority of people, but a large percentage of them—were fresh graduates. The older bunch were the 30- and 35-year-olds working on the site. That’s when I met my wife shortly after that in ’53. But we were married in ’53. But I met her in ’52 at a social that was put on by YWCA, Young Women’s—YWCA organization. They had church-sponsored dinners one night a week and that’s where we met. So we’ve been married for 62 years now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Were there a lot of those sort of social events? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: A lot of those that happened. As a matter of fact, the organization—I was the third set that the president and the secretary of that organization got married. [LAUGHTER] She was the secretary when I was the president of the organization. [LAUGHTER] Which was sort of comical, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: What sort of things did you and your wife do in your spare time in the ‘50s and ‘60s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I guess bridge playing was one, and social events. We went—there was—they had a group that she was involved in called the Fireside Group that had functions and went camping and things like that. But we played a lot of bridge then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Where did you live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I was living in the dormitories, of course, when we were married. I lived in North Richland in the women’s barracks for a short time until the rooms became available in the dormitories in Richland. That’s where I was living when we got married. Of course, housing was another whole story. You had to put your name on a list to get a house. They were all assigned by the government. All the housing was, of course, controlled and owned by the government. So you had to get your name on the waiting list to get a house. We were fortunate; we got a duplex, a C house up on Wright Avenue. I got that assigned in less than a month before we were married. So when we were married, we had a two-bedroom duplex house up there available. That’s where we moved in and lived there until 1957 when the government decided to disperse the property. They started selling vacant lots in 1957. We were a junior tenant in the duplex, so we couldn’t make an offer on the duplex. The senior tenants had the right to buy the duplex. So I was quite aggressive in my ownership philosophy, decided to buy a lot. We purchased the lot on Newcomer, the first property that was sold. And we built a house. I started building in March of 1958. As a matter of fact, we built—our house was the third privately built house in Richland. We had a house and were living in it before Richland was incorporated. They incorporated the city in July of ’58. That was of course the second official designation as a corporation because Richland, of course was a corporation—I mean an incorporated city before the government took it over in ’43. We built that house and I have pictures that I brought of the fact it was one of the first ones in Richland. And we’re still living in the same house. I don’t know what that says, but [LAUGHTER] I guess stability for one thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Were you involved in local politics at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: In what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: In local politics at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard; No, not really. They asked me a few times if I wouldn’t run for the city council, but I never did. No, I’m not a politician. I didn’t want to get involved in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: So you described a number of different jobs you were doing over the first two decades or so that you were here? Could you walk us through, at least for one of those, what was sort of an average work day like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, let me see. There was one—I guess all of them were similar in a lot of respects. I was doing—on those jobs, I was doing project engineering. And that meant the coordination of, and the I guess you’d call it management, although there was, of course, the organization like GE, there’s so many levels of management that comes through that it’s a little hard to say you managed it, because you have so much supervision and overhead actions that are taken on a project, for example. But on most projects, the engineer—the project engineer would write the project proposal based on what the technical department would have as input for a required facility, for example. Like the high temperature lattice test reactor, the physics department had specified the programs that they were involved in would want to look in more detail at the lattice spacing in graphite reactors, for example. So they would write a document which would specify what their objective was and what their basic criteria was for that facility. And project people would issue—maybe take that and issue an order for another group to do the detailed process—conceptual design, or do it themselves. We’d do it sometimes on small projects. We had projects all the way from modify one laboratory all the way up to a whole facility. So it’s hard to describe the same process for all of them. But it was office work, engineering work. Some of the times I was in a design group where we actually doing detailed design work. But most of my work was in the project engineering field where we were seeing the work done by others. Or specifying details or managing the people that were doing the detailed design work. But it was office work, and of course when construction started, that’s when the project engineers were more in control, because they were directing the contractors as far as the field work was concerned. It was always an interesting job, an interesting challenge, I thought, preparing contract bid packages. Office work, lots of times the projects were out in the field, of course, out in the Area. We’d drive government cars to go to work. That was an advantage. Of course being in engineering rather than operations where you had more control of your time from the standpoint of individual management. Because we’d use government cars for transportation. We didn’t have computers in the early stages, obviously. When they came out with DSIs, Don’t Say It In Writing, that was a big move, too. [LAUGHTER] But certainly a lot of progress and a lot of technology changes over the years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: How much were security or classification a part of your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, it was certainly in overview all the time. All the documents, if a job had classified work on it, you had to get the documents classified, and follow the restrictions for those particular elements or documents, whatever’s involved. Most of the time, of course, construction was not too rigidly controlled or administered, I guess. In later years, because the, for example, research work was not really high classified. Most—a lot of it wasn’t. But it was something that was always there. Of course the badging was always—I remember one time incident I had which was funny—rather humorous. I was in a meeting out in one of the hundred areas, in a back room in some building and we were having a discussion. All of the sudden a door burst open and two patrolmen came in and said, where’s Del Ballard?! I’m over here. [LAUGHTER] Hey, come with me! They took me by the arms and whisked me outside and outside the badge house. I said, what’s going on? What’s the problem? They said, you don’t have a badge! I said, what do you mean I don’t got a badge. I looked at it and it was somebody else’s badge—name on it. They had given me the wrong badge! [LAUGHTER] So they were, I guess, vigilant in their control. But some of the times you thought it was a little overreach. It was always there, that’s for sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: You mentioned a couple jobs not necessarily at Hanford—I think you said Idaho Falls at one point, or other locations around? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Yes, we had a project—I guess I sort of skipped over that—in the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho Falls. The fuels people here—research people—wanted to do some testing in the Engineering Test Reactor with certain issues or problems that they were trying to develop from the fuel technology. So we put in two high pressure loops over there. Again, I was the project person on it. I didn’t do the design work, I did the procurement and the construction management. Philips Petroleum was the operating contractor over there at the Engineering Test Reactor. So I went over there and saw that those loops were completed and put in place and in operation. It was in 1958. I spent, well, most of that year over there, back and forth. My wife was really unhappy, because that was the year that we had started our house. So I had—coming home on weekends and trying to keep that sorted out. Because we had a foreman working with the carpenters building the house. So it was kind of stressful for her. Yeah, and then I had to go back for the next year after that for some cleanup work on the project. It was another project that was managed by Hanford, but installing a reactor over there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: I’m curious how sort of insular Hanford was, versus how much it was common for people to get advice from outside of the Area, or to travel to different facilities and learn what they were doing, or share what you were doing with others? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I think that’s probably more prevalent in the technical field than it is in the construction area. Yeah, there certainly was in a nuclear complex, there was—and we did have travels. I did visit some other sites. Occasionally the laboratories on some of the projects we had. But most of that was done by the technical department, not the engineering department. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: How much has the community changed, and in any particular ways during the time you’ve lived here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, it’s gone from a small community to a much higher-traffic area than it used to be. But the people say it’s still pretty mild. Of course I’ve traveled to Los Angeles quite a bit; I had relatives in Los Angeles. And I’d grow accustomed to that mainly down there too. But it’s still—the Tri-Cities is still a nice place to live, I think. It doesn’t have a lot of the big city hubbub that other places do, but it certainly has changed a lot from what it was when I came. My wife came in 1944. Of course that was when it was sand and dust piles and no trees and no grass. It was a lot like that when I came, too, although it was developing. But the first few years that the Manhattan Project workers were here, they had some pretty rough goes. Of course the government would operate a city was an entirely different situation than we have now with private ownership and private management of the company—or local management of the company there. When the government operated the city, it was—you’ve heard these stories before, I know. Even lightbulbs were changed by the employees of the government. [LAUGHTER] So that was a big change. But when we got married we were renting from the government but as soon as they sold the houses we built our own and were on our own. So we’ve lived pretty much as a private city in all of our married life. So that hasn’t been a major change. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Anything else—nothing else in particular I’m fishing for here—did anything else come to mind, as far as changes in, I don’t know, spirit of work at Hanford or changes in the communities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, the government management of the Hanford site has certainly undergone lots of changes, much as our society has, I think, over the last 50 years. When GE operated the plant, I felt and a lot of us felt that the program was defined in general in scope and the contractor was given a block of money and there they went. They did the job. They didn’t have the oversight or the detail management or the daily exchange as much with the government, I think, as they do now. I think that’s been a change in philosophy or change in detail of management more. A lot of it is because the public’s been more closely involved. Like the different committees that are involved in the oversight with the DoE that they didn’t have at that time. Of course when the Manhattan Project started, it was even further away than that. Nobody outside the Project knew what was being done. They were building the atomic bomb and nobody knew was done except the organization involved in it. Now, anything the government does it’s public knowledge and has 100 different reviews over a period of a decade before they get anything done. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Of course all these decades we’re talking about here are during the Cold War, and nuclear weapons are wrapped up in a lot of that and nuclear power. Was that ever something that was on your mind, or that were you aware of? Or was that just something that was going on far away? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: No, I think the Cold War and the conflict with Russia was well-known because of all the cautions and concerns about the atomic weapons and people—during the crisis that peaked in the early ‘60s and we were in hard conflict with Russia. A lot of concern about what might happen. It was a different era and there was a lot of awareness of the potential that there could be a nuclear conflict. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Did it ever impact your life, or your wife’s life more or less directly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I don’t think we—we thought we were protected, we thought we had the national security to take care of it. And I guess we didn’t really worry about it—it was something you didn’t really dwell on, I don’t think. Although they told the students and the kids—some people did build bomb shelters. My neighbor, Dr. Petty, they had one at their house under the lawn in the front yard. When they built the house, they put in a bomb shelter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Nobody knew about it but them, but I knew about it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Did you ever see the inside of the shelter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: I never was in it, no. But I know it’s there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Let’s see. So I guess we’ve sort of covered this. Could you describe the ways in which security and or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I guess from the work that I did in the engineering specifications and drawings and documents that related to projects, we had to worry about the classification on them. You had to worry about the access—access to different projects at different facilities. Of course you had to have the right clearance. So it was a restraint on work in some respects. But it wasn’t a major impact, I don’t think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: In more recent years—well I guess I don’t know how long—you’ve been working with the B Reactor Museum Association and other groups interested in the history of the local community. Can you tell me how you got involved with that and sort of the history of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Sure can. I retired in ’89. And then as I said, I went back to work on a part-time basis. But during that period, the Environmental Impact Statements had been written, and the mission at Hanford was changing from production to cleanup. All the documents and all the philosophy that was being disseminated was, we were going to tear everything down and dispose of everything in the Project. I was the representative to the Tri-City Technical Council. It was a group of only local affiliate—all local agent—sections or groups from the technical society’s engineering—civil, mechanical, electrical, nuclear, women’s organizations—all the technical organizations had what they called a Tri-City Technical Council. And we met monthly and addressed the issues for technology dissemination or issues that might affect the community from what we might recommend or so forth. From that group, we learned—we knew what the DoE was getting into, transition-wise into the cleanup of the site. They were going to tear everything down. And we said, well, we don’t want that to happen to some of these historic facilities. The B Reactor, for example, was the world’s first production reactor. And it was very consequential from the history, both of our nation and the world, as far as that. And also the kick-off for nuclear power. So we said, we ought to do something about that. So we formed a committee. I was one of the people of that committee. And we met in July of 1990, was our first meeting. We talked about an organization and how we might form a group that would lead toward the preservation of B Reactor. We decided to form an association. So we had an attorney draw up our bylaws and we formed an organization called the B Reactor Museum Association. We got our state corporate action—I forget what word they use to describe the initiation of the organization in January of 1991. But I consider the organization being formed in 1990. And our objective was to educate the public about the historical significance of B, and to do what we could to preserve the reactor, to see that it was preserved. To gain access and to develop exhibits and so forth for the exhibits. So that was where we started, was way back in 1990. And all during the decade of the ‘90s, we were meeting and fighting with the Department of Energy because they had milestones after milestones that were established on the cleanup and disposal of all the reactors. B was put into the list later on, but it was always on the list for cocooning, as all the reactors would be. We got those milestones extended over the years. And finally, with persuasion and meeting with legislators, Sid Morris and I met with Sid Morris and—I don’t remember the year now, but it was one of the first times that he was sympathetic for the theme that we preserve the historical relic. And of course, later on Doc Hastings. We had many meetings and persuasions with all the legislators. Of course, Cantwell and Murray got on board over the years. It later progressed into the fact that we want to have a study to see if the Parks Service could preserve it. One time during the late ‘70s, I believe it was, several people thought that the REACH would be the only chance of preserving the B Reactor. They would be the ones that would sponsor the tours and provide for the access and so forth. I said, no, I said, I don’t believe that. I said, I think we want to get the Parks Service involved because I don’t know that even the REACH is going to have the muscle to do it. So we got meetings with the legislators and we got a study authorized for the Parks Service study. That was after two or three years of trials and tribulations. It was finally approved. When the Parks Service first came out—you’re probably aware of the fact that they didn’t have—they just had Los Alamos as the sole main site for the park. And we said, that would never sell. It had to include all the sites: Oak Ridge, Los Alamos and Hanford. So they revised their study and made it a three-site park. It was eventually approved and then later legislation—Doc Hastings and Cantwell got the park legislation authorized. BRMA of course has been involved—has been the agency chipping at their heels all the way through all this. [LAUGHTER] We finally got credit for it. For many years, they didn’t really recognize BRMA as the organization that made it happen, but I think we had an awful lot to do with what made it happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Were you ever associated with any of the other local history-related groups? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, yes. We were affiliated with the CREHST museum. We worked with them and the REACH also. But we were the ones that were pushing—BRMA—the B Reactor specifically. We still have a lot of partnerships. We had memorandums of understanding with DoE and the CREHST and with—I guess we don’t have one with the REACH but we still meet with them. Matter of fact, they’re working on this new exhibit for the Cold War exhibit. Of course they’ve got—there’s four of us from BRMA that are on those meetings, but there’s a lot of other community leaders involved, too, obviously. And that was what happened is we were the—BRMA was the organization that was in the trenches early on. But later on, the whole community and the region and the legislators all got on board. So there was a lot of emphasis and support for getting it preserved and getting it converted, or made into a national historic park. Have you seen the plaque out there at B Reactor that says we’re the ones that initiated the plan to preserve it. So, yeah, I’m quite proud of that. I was one of the founding members of the organization. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Why did it matter to you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, it’s important, I think, to preserve the history. It’s a significant part of the nation’s history. And if it’s going to be educational for the—a good place for the students, the young kids to come up and learn what the nuclear industry’s all about. I still say—and I’ve said for twenty years—that—I don’t know how many years down the road it’s going to be, but I think nuclear power’s going to be a major source of energy. Commercial electrical as well as all the other fields—medical and research. It still has an important place to play in our total nation’s history, I think. And we need to know how it started and what problems it caused. Let’s not generate those again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: What would you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: So that’s the story that’s going to be told in the park, and I think a lot of people—that’s some of the emphasis. People come out and see the comments in the paper, all the negative comments. Well, that’s true, but the story’s still there and needs to be told. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I don’t know. It was a challenge, I guess. The success—I’m glad that we developed the bomb rather than Hitler. Like how Fermi said, he said when he was working on fission in Italy in the late ‘30s—the 1930s, yes. He always said he was eternally grateful that he didn’t learn how to control fission then. He said if he had have, Hitler would have started the war with them, rather than us ending the war with them. So I think they need to know what the conditions were at the time that the Manhattan Project was built and what the world was undergoing at the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: What else should I be asking about? What else is there that we should discuss? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: I don’t know! I think I pretty well spilled everything I know. Unless—I don’t know. I could mention about my—as you know, I was not here during the Manhattan Project. It was over when I came in 1951. My wife and her family was a different story. They came with DuPont in 1944. So her dad was a DuPont employee and he came out here at that time and saw the conditions in employment problems that they had at that time. He was a machinist and had actually directed the tech shops out there for many years. So he probably—that family has more history of the Manhattan Project than I do. Mine is just history. It was—I’ve had an interesting career and I guess I’ve enjoyed it here and it’s been a wonderful place to live. I think it will continue to be if we have people that keep our city from growing into something that it shouldn’t be. [LAUGHTER] But I guess I don’t have any new subjects to talk about unless you have new questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: I think—that’s my list for now, but thank you so much for being here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, it’s been a pleasure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: All right, great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Tom Hungate: I had a question. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Please. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Hungate: One of the jobs you had—you had a wide variety of jobs; all of them sound fascinating to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Oh, they’re interesting, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Hungate: One caught my ear, because I’ve seen these. Tell me what it was like when you said you worked on the K Reactors to lay—you said you were laying up the block. Tell—describe what that process was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I wasn’t involved in that deeply as a lot of the fellows were. I can’t remember his name right now, but the primary engineer that had the graphite technology. That graphite was machined in the 101 Building. Well, actually the old reactor’s was in the old 101 Building in White Bluffs. They built a new building, the 2101 Building in the 200 East Area which was specifically for the graphite machining and layup—test layups. Those blocks were built to very tight tolerances. The graphite came in in square blocks from the manufacturers and they had to be machined to the final configuration. Those tolerances were very, very tight, like plus or minus two mils or five mils at the most. The blocks were basically four-and-three-quarters inches by four-and-three-quarters inches by 40-some inches long—the main block. After they were machined to very close tolerances, they were test stacked in the 2101 Building, laid up ten tiers to be sure that the tolerances of the assembly were precise. And from there they were packaged on pallets in sequence that they would go in, in reverse sequence, so when they took them off they were ready to be stacked up. And then they were shipped—brought into the reactor vessel, lowered down into the open process area in the center part of the core and pulled off the pallets and just stacked, piece by piece. There’s pictures available that you see of the old reactors. There may be some of K Reactors too, I don’t know, but show inside the reactors when they’re laying up with the blocks. Of course everybody’s in whites. Your cleanliness control’s very important. And of course, obviously, sequence was very, very important, to have all the blocks in there. But from my perspective, I just watched—I wasn’t doing the work, I was just part of the process that was putting them in there. It was very closely controlled and very temperature controlled—well, no, I don’t know about the temperature. The building was under limited temperature control. But the cleanliness was strictly controlled, and the workers of course had been assigned with each pallet that came in, they knew where it went and how it was to be laid. But that was the same process that was used in all the reactors for graphite layup. But that’s amazing, the way they built those things. You have all the penetrations, like—I can’t give you the numbers. K Reactors were bigger than the old original reactor. The original reactor had 2,004 process tubes. You probably all know the story of that, too. [LAUGHTER] But what I started to say was, the alignment of the holes in the blocks, of course, had to line up with the holes of the penetrations of front and rear faces precisely when they put them in. So it was like putting a watch together on a 40-foot-square [LAUGHTER]—40-foot cube. Very precise work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Were there any mistakes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: Did you ever see any mistakes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, no, but if there were they were corrected as they went, because they had two or three levels of inspection verified that they were going in properly. There may have been some, I don’t know. I was not in direct control of that job. I was more on the K Reactor, I just was in oversight. I don’t remember what my position was at that time, but—the B Reactor, for example, you know what happened there when they started it up? It died because of the xenon poison. They didn’t have enough neutron flux levels to override that poisoning effect. That’s when they had to add the additional fuel channels outside the original 1,500 that they had that the physicist said was adequate to drive the reactor. So that was an interesting job. They had to—the later reactors, they had more knowledge of what the requirements were. So the design wasn’t—it didn’t create a problem on initial startup like B Reactor did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: We were trying to outline or highlight—what sort of innovations came out of Hanford, what sort of inventions did you see—what new knowledge or techniques did you see created at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, there again, you need to talk to the physicists and chemists and people that were in the fuel design areas. There were so many changes made to the fuel designs. They went from—of course these were only applicable to the graphite reactors the modern fuel originally were eight inches long when the distortion that occurred in the graphite, that was because of the structure change due to the radiation in the graphite. The channels were distorted to the point where some were so crooked that the eight-inch channel—the fuel wouldn’t go through the channel. SO they went to four-inch people—four-inch long fuel assemblies in some of those bad channels. And then of course another knowledge was the design of fuel assembly, you went from strictly external core where they just had an annulus of water around the outside cooling the fuel assembly. It went to a center core; they had internal cooling—a flow channel through the center of the element. But as far as the physics of the elements, they went from totally natural uranium, originally 238, all naturally derived with 0.7% 235. They went to some enrichment in the reactors to increase the power level. But there was physics changes all along, as far as being able to control and just knowledge of impurities and what the effects were in the nuclear physical—the physics involved in the reactor. But of course, then the Breeder Program, we didn’t talk about that. There’s a lot of advancements made there. FFTF was a marvelous machine and it produced a lot of new information from greener technology. That FFTF was—I spent ten years on development—seven on development and three on construction, so. But I wasn’t—I’m not a physicist and wasn’t into the technology as much as the people—I was more into construction, design and construction. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: A lot of knowledge there, too, that you—hands-on knowledge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Well, I always pride myself on being able to fix problems. We had a lot of things on assembly or putting the stuff together that just—problems or interferences or arrangements that weren’t thought of in design that we were able to resolve in the field, and that’s why I got into—I’ve been building houses for Habitat now for the last 15 years. [LAUGHTER] It’s a little different from putting reactors together, but I get a lot of comments from the instruction people in Habitat. This is not a reactor; we don’t need to have those tolerances. [LAUGHTER] But I say if you make it right, it looks a lot nicer and it goes together better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> O’Reagan: All right, I guess that’s the list of questions I’ve got. I guess we’ll end it once again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX9056486"> Ballard: Okay, well, appreciate. </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Del Ballard Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:34 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 249 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 321 Building 400 Area 200 East Area 2101 Building 101 Building C Reactor B Reactor K Reactor High Temperature Lattice Test Reactor Engineering Test Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Fuels and Materials Exam Facility Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1989 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Morris, Sid Hastings, Doc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Del Ballard Description An account of the resource An interview with Del Ballard conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Nuclear instruments & methods Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/18/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-10: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 101 Building 200 East Area 2101 Building 300 Area 321 Building 400 Area B Reactor C Reactor Engineering Test Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Fuels and Materials Exam Facility General Electric Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) High Temperature Lattice Test Reactor K Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4482eb9cc8865dfcc1b2696f3ddb6cf9.jpg 108617a13f2edd12e51e5d10624b874a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O'Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Del Ballard Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Del Ballard: I’m not accustomed to this, so you get what you get. Douglas O’Reagan: All the better, all the better. Sometimes we get some rehearsed answers, that is fine. But all the better if somebody gives me something that they haven’t exactly honed their exact phrasing on. Ballard: We just put together one for the BRMA history—history of BRMA. That was all written out, so it was—but I’m amazed at how much insistence they have at no corrections, no—[LAUGHTER] Pretty trying. O’Reagan: Okay, great. So let’s start off here. First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Ballard: Well, my first name is Delbert L. Ballard. Leo for center. D-E-L-B-E-R-T, B-A-L-L-A-R-D. And I go by Del, commonly. O’Reagan: All right, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview here on February 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Ballard about his experiences working on the Hanford site, living in this community. First of all, can you start us off just—walk us through your life in sort of a brief term before you came to this area. Ballard: Well, I was raised on a dryland wheat farm in Montana, so I know what work is all about. And I was a student in a little high school that was only seven of us in our graduating class. So I was sort of a country boy, and went to college at Montana State University. And I graduated from there in 1951. Just prior to that, the General Electric Company, of course, had been there to do interviews. They were scoping for—recruiting for engineers and I was a civil engineer graduate. There was other recruiters through, too. I had an offer from a San Francisco shipyard, and another from the Soil Conservation Service in Montana. But I wanted to get a job with GE. So I’d had the interview, but no really positive award or recognition that they were going to give me an offer. They were interviewing a large number of people. So graduation day came around and I still hadn’t gotten a letter from GE. But the mail came that morning, and lo and behold, there it was. So I was really pleased at that. So my initial job right out of college was coming to Hanford and working for General Electric Company as a rotational training—in the rotational training program. They had hired that year, the previous year, actually ’49, ’50 and ’51, they had hired about 300 or 350 tech grads. And I was one of the later ones getting here; I didn’t get here until July. So most of the good jobs were assigned. But in the rotational training program, my first assignment was a rather mundane assignment to the transportation department. Next one was a more interesting job with the inspection department. That was over in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, Hanford was undergoing I believed what they called the Korean expansion. The Korean War was underway and in full force at that time when I got out of school. As a matter of fact, I thought I was going to be drafted, but I tried to enlist and—I’m diverting here a little bit, but—tried to enlist in the Air Force to be a pilot, but my eyes weren’t good enough, so I got rejected for that. [LAUGHTER] So when I knew that the GE job was a deferred job, I thought, well, that’s an alternate I’d just as soon pursue. So anyway when I got here on the rotational training program, that’s what it was. Individuals were assigned to different locations for training purposes and for filling job needs. The second assignment was, as I said, inspection department in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, they were fabricating—the shipyard was fabricating the biological shield blocks for the C Reactor. It was one of the expansion efforts at Hanford, increasing the production capacity. So that was an interesting job over there at the shipyard doing inspection and learning a lot about inspection techniques and components and so forth. Another month after that, I was rotating around the Seattle area inspecting other components that were being manufactured for the C Reactor. C Reactor, as you know, was the one that was built right alongside of the B Reactor out at Hanford. It started up in ’53, I believe. But out of the rotational training program, I was assigned into construction area out in the 300 Area. They were fabricating laboratories for building the laboratories out there. Radiochemistry, radiometallurgy, pile tech, machine shop, and a library at that area of the Hanford—300 Area was just under construction. So I got assigned to help in the field engineering in that job. It was an interesting project. I learned a lot there in that job. And from there I went into other project engineering work, including in later years, the K Reactors were under construction and I was involved in laying up the graphite of that reactor, K East Reactors. I stayed in project engineering with GE all my life—or all my employment time was with GE. They left here in ’64. Yeah, Battelle came in ’65. Two of the projects that I followed after K Reactors, one of them was the critical mass lab in the 300 Area, which was a facility for evaluating critical shapes and sizes for plutonium missiles. It was a research job, research facility. That project was a lump sum construction and plant forces for the completion of putting the process equipment in. The next job I had was the High Temperature Lattice Test reactor in the 300 Area. That’s a reactor that probably hasn’t gotten much publicity. It was a small graphite reactor. But that was a job I was very proud of, because I was the sole project engineering function at the time. The design was done by an organization that was just brought on as GE was being phased out. It was the Vitro Engineering Company. They had a detailed design of the job, and the construction was done lump sum, and then J. Jones did the reactor installation. I can tell quite a bit of detail about that reactor, if you’re interesting. [LAUGHTER] But it was an experimental facility also for evaluating different lattice spacings for graphite moderator reactors. It was electrically heated—it operated up at 1,000 degrees centigrade, so that graphite, looking through the peepholes in the reactor, you could see white hot graphite, which is sort of an interesting thing to see. But that project was not large in comparison to today’s funding levels. But it was a three- to four-million-dollar project. I finished the job and closed it out with less than $200 left on the books and no overrun. [LAUGHTER] So I got a commendation for that job, which I was quite proud of. But from there, then I diverted into other project engineering jobs. One was in Idaho Falls. We had a test facility over there, putting in test loops in the engineering test reactor. That was closer to reactor operations type work. We had to modify an operating reactor. But that was some of my interesting project years before I got into jobs later on, which was the FFTF and the FMEF. Fuels and Materials Exam Facility. I always make the statement that every project, or every job that I worked on up until the FFTF was completed and put into operation. Every project after FFTF was shut down and closed down before it was completed. [LAUGHTER] So that was kind of a breaking point for me. Hanford, of course, reached its peak in production, and I can talk something about that as far as reactor operations is concerned. But I wasn’t really in operations, I was in engineering, and had jobs all over the Project. So I never was tied down to one location. It was interesting. So I had an interesting career in a lot of different projects. I enjoyed my work, and had a good time and a good married life and I can go into that, too, if you wish. O’Reagan: So you say you were with GE this whole time? You didn’t switch over to different contractors as they came in? Ballard: Well, yes—no. I just with GE until they left. O’Reagan: I see. Ballard: And then Battelle came in ’65. So I was with Battelle for ’65 until ’70 when Westinghouse took over the Breeder Program. Initially, Westinghouse was just brought in for the Fast Flux Test Reactor, to manage that. And I happened to be working on a development job. That’s one I haven’t mentioned yet. [LAUGHTER] When Westinghouse came in, I was assigned—that was my first manager job. I had a group, or a section in the 321 Building in the 300 Area, and a job which was identified as the hydraulic core mockup. And we designed, built and operated models to evaluate the design configuration for the FFTF. So we built water models to look at a lot of different features: the reactor vessel arrangement, and the core arrangement and the structure. And the inlet planning and outlet planning. We built several models. The two biggest ones were the inlet model, which evaluated the sodium distribution in the inlet planning and feeding characteristics for the fuels channels. I worked on that job for seven years. And then during that time, of course, FFTF came under construction. Our group actually influenced the design which was being done by Westinghouse back east. There was a lot of the features in the arrangements and shapes of the vessel and the flow distribution and the core that was determined by that hydraulic core mockup test facility. Then when they started putting the reactor together, I was assigned to construction out in 400 Area. I spent the whole year inside the reactor vessel, helping the engineer put the parts together. One of our humorous comments about FFTF was, from our perspective was FFTF, do you know what that stands for? Yeah, it sounds for feel, file, to fit. [LAUGHTER] Fill all the tight tolerances and all the arrangements necessary to make everything fit and throw it together. It was well-engineered and well-designed, but it was still—engineering problems had to be resolved in the field. So that was another interesting project. Following that, then I spent seven years on the FMEF, the Fuels and Materials Exam Facility, designing and coordinating the design—the management of the design, which was done by an off-plant architect engineer. And there, again, that was a project that was not completed. It was shut down when the Breeder Program was curtailed. So, following that, I could go into more details where we did for various and sundry work, but it was all toward the new mission for the Hanford site, which was cleanup, starting in that field in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I retired, officially, in ’89. But I worked consulting for four years after that. So my career actually spanned from 1951 to 1994. O’Reagan: How disappointing was it when FFTF got canceled? Ballard: Pardon me? O’Reagan: Was it disappointing when FFTF got canceled? Ballard: It was very discouraging, yes, that they were going to close it down. When they drilled a hole in the core support structure, like drilling a hole in my heart. [LAUGHTER] Matter of fact, I’ve got some pictures to show that I was the last person in the FFTF vessel before they closed it up and started it filling it with sodium. Matter of fact, after that closure—after the photograph that I have, I’ll be happy to show you—they had an accident with the fuel charging machine which went up to the top of the travel and the upper limits which failed and it dropped down on the core and broke some of the components that I was so—[LAUGHTER]—proud of getting installed properly. Core support structure. And we had to go in there and do some repairs. But then I, after that, I left the FFTF and went to work on the design of the FMEF. [SIGH] O’Reagan: Did life sort of change day-to-day when you switched these contractors? How different was it working for these different companies? Ballard: The only change that I could see was the difference of the color of the paycheck. [LAUGHTER] As a matter of fact, when we transferred from—let’s see if I can remember which contract that was—was it GE to Battelle or Battelle to Westinghouse? I don’t remember, but the end of that day, we were terminated and I happened to be at a party down in one of the local pubs which I didn’t very often frequent. But somebody said, who do you work for? And I said, at the moment I’m unemployed. Because that was the day we left one contractor and started with the next one. But the transitions were quite smooth, I would say. I mean, of course, policies changed and your managers changed. At one time, in a two-year period when Westinghouse came in, I think I had 13 different first level and second level managers above me change without in those two-year period. So there was a lot of personnel changes. But a lot of us working closer to the ground floor, there was very little change. O’Reagan: So, let’s back up a moment. What were your first impressions of Hanford and the area? Ballard: Well, I came here in the summer—it was in July. I got here on July 3rd of 1951. I was assigned to the barracks out in North Richland—women’s barracks as a matter of fact. That’s when all the dormitory rooms were filled up in Richland for the men’s dorms. So I was assigned out there for my quarters. The next day, I learned that you didn’t have to drive the buses around, you could ride the city buses or the plant buses. Plant buses, to ride to the area was five cents, and city buses, I don’t remember whether they were five cents or free. I rode that bus the next day that I went to work, and it was 105 degrees that day. And I thought, my lord, what have I gotten myself into? [LAUGHTER] This is horrible temperature! But I was young and willing to accept anything that came my way, so I guess I didn’t think it was too serious a problem. O’Reagan: How aware were you of the mission of Hanford before you came here? Ballard: Very little, probably. I knew that it was working on the war effort, but at that time, nobody really—well, yeah, I guess it was known they were producing plutonium or weapons for atomic weapons, but as far as the details concerned, I knew very little. As any engineer—young man right out of college might be. Because I didn’t know what the plant—the structure was. But they gave—they told us and we got the information from the co-workers and the other students. It was quite interesting, because all the youngsters that were working, everybody—not the majority of people, but a large percentage of them—were fresh graduates. The older bunch were the 30- and 35-year-olds working on the site. That’s when I met my wife shortly after that in ’53. But we were married in ’53. But I met her in ’52 at a social that was put on by YWCA, Young Women’s—YWCA organization. They had church-sponsored dinners one night a week and that’s where we met. So we’ve been married for 62 years now. O’Reagan: Were there a lot of those sort of social events? Ballard: A lot of those that happened. As a matter of fact, the organization—I was the third set that the president and the secretary of that organization got married. [LAUGHTER] She was the secretary when I was the president of the organization. [LAUGHTER] Which was sort of comical, I guess. O’Reagan: What sort of things did you and your wife do in your spare time in the ‘50s and ‘60s? Ballard: Well, I guess bridge playing was one, and social events. We went—there was—they had a group that she was involved in called the Fireside Group that had functions and went camping and things like that. But we played a lot of bridge then. O’Reagan: Where did you live? Ballard: Well, I was living in the dormitories, of course, when we were married. I lived in North Richland in the women’s barracks for a short time until the rooms became available in the dormitories in Richland. That’s where I was living when we got married. Of course, housing was another whole story. You had to put your name on a list to get a house. They were all assigned by the government. All the housing was, of course, controlled and owned by the government. So you had to get your name on the waiting list to get a house. We were fortunate; we got a duplex, a C house up on Wright Avenue. I got that assigned in less than a month before we were married. So when we were married, we had a two-bedroom duplex house up there available. That’s where we moved in and lived there until 1957 when the government decided to disperse the property. They started selling vacant lots in 1957. We were a junior tenant in the duplex, so we couldn’t make an offer on the duplex. The senior tenants had the right to buy the duplex. So I was quite aggressive in my ownership philosophy, decided to buy a lot. We purchased the lot on Newcomer, the first property that was sold. And we built a house. I started building in March of 1958. As a matter of fact, we built—our house was the third privately built house in Richland. We had a house and were living in it before Richland was incorporated. They incorporated the city in July of ’58. That was of course the second official designation as a corporation because Richland, of course was a corporation—I mean an incorporated city before the government took it over in ’43. We built that house and I have pictures that I brought of the fact it was one of the first ones in Richland. And we’re still living in the same house. I don’t know what that says, but [LAUGHTER] I guess stability for one thing. O’Reagan: Were you involved in local politics at all? Ballard: In what? O’Reagan: In local politics at all? Ballard; No, not really. They asked me a few times if I wouldn’t run for the city council, but I never did. No, I’m not a politician. I didn’t want to get involved in that. O’Reagan: So you described a number of different jobs you were doing over the first two decades or so that you were here? Could you walk us through, at least for one of those, what was sort of an average work day like? Ballard: Well, let me see. There was one—I guess all of them were similar in a lot of respects. I was doing—on those jobs, I was doing project engineering. And that meant the coordination of, and the I guess you’d call it management, although there was, of course, the organization like GE, there’s so many levels of management that comes through that it’s a little hard to say you managed it, because you have so much supervision and overhead actions that are taken on a project, for example. But on most projects, the engineer—the project engineer would write the project proposal based on what the technical department would have as input for a required facility, for example. Like the high temperature lattice test reactor, the physics department had specified the programs that they were involved in would want to look in more detail at the lattice spacing in graphite reactors, for example. So they would write a document which would specify what their objective was and what their basic criteria was for that facility. And project people would issue—maybe take that and issue an order for another group to do the detailed process—conceptual design, or do it themselves. We’d do it sometimes on small projects. We had projects all the way from modify one laboratory all the way up to a whole facility. So it’s hard to describe the same process for all of them. But it was office work, engineering work. Some of the times I was in a design group where we actually doing detailed design work. But most of my work was in the project engineering field where we were seeing the work done by others. Or specifying details or managing the people that were doing the detailed design work. But it was office work, and of course when construction started, that’s when the project engineers were more in control, because they were directing the contractors as far as the field work was concerned. It was always an interesting job, an interesting challenge, I thought, preparing contract bid packages. Office work, lots of times the projects were out in the field, of course, out in the Area. We’d drive government cars to go to work. That was an advantage. Of course being in engineering rather than operations where you had more control of your time from the standpoint of individual management. Because we’d use government cars for transportation. We didn’t have computers in the early stages, obviously. When they came out with DSIs, Don’t Say It In Writing, that was a big move, too. [LAUGHTER] But certainly a lot of progress and a lot of technology changes over the years. O’Reagan: How much were security or classification a part of your work? Ballard: Well, it was certainly in overview all the time. All the documents, if a job had classified work on it, you had to get the documents classified, and follow the restrictions for those particular elements or documents, whatever’s involved. Most of the time, of course, construction was not too rigidly controlled or administered, I guess. In later years, because the, for example, research work was not really high classified. Most—a lot of it wasn’t. But it was something that was always there. Of course the badging was always—I remember one time incident I had which was funny—rather humorous. I was in a meeting out in one of the hundred areas, in a back room in some building and we were having a discussion. All of the sudden a door burst open and two patrolmen came in and said, where’s Del Ballard?! I’m over here. [LAUGHTER] Hey, come with me! They took me by the arms and whisked me outside and outside the badge house. I said, what’s going on? What’s the problem? They said, you don’t have a badge! I said, what do you mean I don’t got a badge. I looked at it and it was somebody else’s badge—name on it. They had given me the wrong badge! [LAUGHTER] So they were, I guess, vigilant in their control. But some of the times you thought it was a little overreach. It was always there, that’s for sure. O’Reagan: You mentioned a couple jobs not necessarily at Hanford—I think you said Idaho Falls at one point, or other locations around? Ballard: Yes, we had a project—I guess I sort of skipped over that—in the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho Falls. The fuels people here—research people—wanted to do some testing in the Engineering Test Reactor with certain issues or problems that they were trying to develop from the fuel technology. So we put in two high pressure loops over there. Again, I was the project person on it. I didn’t do the design work, I did the procurement and the construction management. Philips Petroleum was the operating contractor over there at the Engineering Test Reactor. So I went over there and saw that those loops were completed and put in place and in operation. It was in 1958. I spent, well, most of that year over there, back and forth. My wife was really unhappy, because that was the year that we had started our house. So I had—coming home on weekends and trying to keep that sorted out. Because we had a foreman working with the carpenters building the house. So it was kind of stressful for her. Yeah, and then I had to go back for the next year after that for some cleanup work on the project. It was another project that was managed by Hanford, but installing a reactor over there. O’Reagan: I’m curious how sort of insular Hanford was, versus how much it was common for people to get advice from outside of the Area, or to travel to different facilities and learn what they were doing, or share what you were doing with others? Ballard: Well, I think that’s probably more prevalent in the technical field than it is in the construction area. Yeah, there certainly was in a nuclear complex, there was—and we did have travels. I did visit some other sites. Occasionally the laboratories on some of the projects we had. But most of that was done by the technical department, not the engineering department. O’Reagan: How much has the community changed, and in any particular ways during the time you’ve lived here? Ballard: Well, it’s gone from a small community to a much higher-traffic area than it used to be. But the people say it’s still pretty mild. Of course I’ve traveled to Los Angeles quite a bit; I had relatives in Los Angeles. And I’d grow accustomed to that mainly down there too. But it’s still—the Tri-Cities is still a nice place to live, I think. It doesn’t have a lot of the big city hubbub that other places do, but it certainly has changed a lot from what it was when I came. My wife came in 1944. Of course that was when it was sand and dust piles and no trees and no grass. It was a lot like that when I came, too, although it was developing. But the first few years that the Manhattan Project workers were here, they had some pretty rough goes. Of course the government would operate a city was an entirely different situation than we have now with private ownership and private management of the company—or local management of the company there. When the government operated the city, it was—you’ve heard these stories before, I know. Even lightbulbs were changed by the employees of the government. [LAUGHTER] So that was a big change. But when we got married we were renting from the government but as soon as they sold the houses we built our own and were on our own. So we’ve lived pretty much as a private city in all of our married life. So that hasn’t been a major change. O’Reagan: Anything else—nothing else in particular I’m fishing for here—did anything else come to mind, as far as changes in, I don’t know, spirit of work at Hanford or changes in the communities? Ballard: Well, the government management of the Hanford site has certainly undergone lots of changes, much as our society has, I think, over the last 50 years. When GE operated the plant, I felt and a lot of us felt that the program was defined in general in scope and the contractor was given a block of money and there they went. They did the job. They didn’t have the oversight or the detail management or the daily exchange as much with the government, I think, as they do now. I think that’s been a change in philosophy or change in detail of management more. A lot of it is because the public’s been more closely involved. Like the different committees that are involved in the oversight with the DoE that they didn’t have at that time. Of course when the Manhattan Project started, it was even further away than that. Nobody outside the Project knew what was being done. They were building the atomic bomb and nobody knew was done except the organization involved in it. Now, anything the government does it’s public knowledge and has 100 different reviews over a period of a decade before they get anything done. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Of course all these decades we’re talking about here are during the Cold War, and nuclear weapons are wrapped up in a lot of that and nuclear power. Was that ever something that was on your mind, or that were you aware of? Or was that just something that was going on far away? Ballard: No, I think the Cold War and the conflict with Russia was well-known because of all the cautions and concerns about the atomic weapons and people—during the crisis that peaked in the early ‘60s and we were in hard conflict with Russia. A lot of concern about what might happen. It was a different era and there was a lot of awareness of the potential that there could be a nuclear conflict. O’Reagan: Did it ever impact your life, or your wife’s life more or less directly? Ballard: Well, I don’t think we—we thought we were protected, we thought we had the national security to take care of it. And I guess we didn’t really worry about it—it was something you didn’t really dwell on, I don’t think. Although they told the students and the kids—some people did build bomb shelters. My neighbor, Dr. Petty, they had one at their house under the lawn in the front yard. When they built the house, they put in a bomb shelter. O’Reagan: [INAUDIBLE] Ballard: Nobody knew about it but them, but I knew about it. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Did you ever see the inside of the shelter? Ballard: I never was in it, no. But I know it’s there. O’Reagan: Let’s see. So I guess we’ve sort of covered this. Could you describe the ways in which security and or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Ballard: Well, I guess from the work that I did in the engineering specifications and drawings and documents that related to projects, we had to worry about the classification on them. You had to worry about the access—access to different projects at different facilities. Of course you had to have the right clearance. So it was a restraint on work in some respects. But it wasn’t a major impact, I don’t think. O’Reagan: In more recent years—well I guess I don’t know how long—you’ve been working with the B Reactor Museum Association and other groups interested in the history of the local community. Can you tell me how you got involved with that and sort of the history of that? Ballard: Sure can. I retired in ’89. And then as I said, I went back to work on a part-time basis. But during that period, the Environmental Impact Statements had been written, and the mission at Hanford was changing from production to cleanup. All the documents and all the philosophy that was being disseminated was, we were going to tear everything down and dispose of everything in the Project. I was the representative to the Tri-City Technical Council. It was a group of only local affiliate—all local agent—sections or groups from the technical society’s engineering—civil, mechanical, electrical, nuclear, women’s organizations—all the technical organizations had what they called a Tri-City Technical Council. And we met monthly and addressed the issues for technology dissemination or issues that might affect the community from what we might recommend or so forth. From that group, we learned—we knew what the DoE was getting into, transition-wise into the cleanup of the site. They were going to tear everything down. And we said, well, we don’t want that to happen to some of these historic facilities. The B Reactor, for example, was the world’s first production reactor. And it was very consequential from the history, both of our nation and the world, as far as that. And also the kick-off for nuclear power. So we said, we ought to do something about that. So we formed a committee. I was one of the people of that committee. And we met in July of 1990, was our first meeting. We talked about an organization and how we might form a group that would lead toward the preservation of B Reactor. We decided to form an association. So we had an attorney draw up our bylaws and we formed an organization called the B Reactor Museum Association. We got our state corporate action—I forget what word they use to describe the initiation of the organization in January of 1991. But I consider the organization being formed in 1990. And our objective was to educate the public about the historical significance of B, and to do what we could to preserve the reactor, to see that it was preserved. To gain access and to develop exhibits and so forth for the exhibits. So that was where we started, was way back in 1990. And all during the decade of the ‘90s, we were meeting and fighting with the Department of Energy because they had milestones after milestones that were established on the cleanup and disposal of all the reactors. B was put into the list later on, but it was always on the list for cocooning, as all the reactors would be. We got those milestones extended over the years. And finally, with persuasion and meeting with legislators, Sid Morris and I met with Sid Morris and—I don’t remember the year now, but it was one of the first times that he was sympathetic for the theme that we preserve the historical relic. And of course, later on Doc Hastings. We had many meetings and persuasions with all the legislators. Of course, Cantwell and Murray got on board over the years. It later progressed into the fact that we want to have a study to see if the Parks Service could preserve it. One time during the late ‘70s, I believe it was, several people thought that the REACH would be the only chance of preserving the B Reactor. They would be the ones that would sponsor the tours and provide for the access and so forth. I said, no, I said, I don’t believe that. I said, I think we want to get the Parks Service involved because I don’t know that even the REACH is going to have the muscle to do it. So we got meetings with the legislators and we got a study authorized for the Parks Service study. That was after two or three years of trials and tribulations. It was finally approved. When the Parks Service first came out—you’re probably aware of the fact that they didn’t have—they just had Los Alamos as the sole main site for the park. And we said, that would never sell. It had to include all the sites: Oak Ridge, Los Alamos and Hanford. So they revised their study and made it a three-site park. It was eventually approved and then later legislation—Doc Hastings and Cantwell got the park legislation authorized. BRMA of course has been involved—has been the agency chipping at their heels all the way through all this. [LAUGHTER] We finally got credit for it. For many years, they didn’t really recognize BRMA as the organization that made it happen, but I think we had an awful lot to do with what made it happen. O’Reagan: Were you ever associated with any of the other local history-related groups? Ballard: Well, yes. We were affiliated with the CREHST museum. We worked with them and the REACH also. But we were the ones that were pushing—BRMA—the B Reactor specifically. We still have a lot of partnerships. We had memorandums of understanding with DoE and the CREHST and with—I guess we don’t have one with the REACH but we still meet with them. Matter of fact, they’re working on this new exhibit for the Cold War exhibit. Of course they’ve got—there’s four of us from BRMA that are on those meetings, but there’s a lot of other community leaders involved, too, obviously. And that was what happened is we were the—BRMA was the organization that was in the trenches early on. But later on, the whole community and the region and the legislators all got on board. So there was a lot of emphasis and support for getting it preserved and getting it converted, or made into a national historic park. Have you seen the plaque out there at B Reactor that says we’re the ones that initiated the plan to preserve it. So, yeah, I’m quite proud of that. I was one of the founding members of the organization. O’Reagan: Why did it matter to you? Ballard: Well, it’s important, I think, to preserve the history. It’s a significant part of the nation’s history. And if it’s going to be educational for the—a good place for the students, the young kids to come up and learn what the nuclear industry’s all about. I still say—and I’ve said for twenty years—that—I don’t know how many years down the road it’s going to be, but I think nuclear power’s going to be a major source of energy. Commercial electrical as well as all the other fields—medical and research. It still has an important place to play in our total nation’s history, I think. And we need to know how it started and what problems it caused. Let’s not generate those again. O’Reagan: What would you— Ballard: So that’s the story that’s going to be told in the park, and I think a lot of people—that’s some of the emphasis. People come out and see the comments in the paper, all the negative comments. Well, that’s true, but the story’s still there and needs to be told. O’Reagan: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? Ballard: Well, I don’t know. It was a challenge, I guess. The success—I’m glad that we developed the bomb rather than Hitler. Like how Fermi said, he said when he was working on fission in Italy in the late ‘30s—the 1930s, yes. He always said he was eternally grateful that he didn’t learn how to control fission then. He said if he had have, Hitler would have started the war with them, rather than us ending the war with them. So I think they need to know what the conditions were at the time that the Manhattan Project was built and what the world was undergoing at the time. O’Reagan: What else should I be asking about? What else is there that we should discuss? Ballard: I don’t know! I think I pretty well spilled everything I know. Unless—I don’t know. I could mention about my—as you know, I was not here during the Manhattan Project. It was over when I came in 1951. My wife and her family was a different story. They came with DuPont in 1944. So her dad was a DuPont employee and he came out here at that time and saw the conditions in employment problems that they had at that time. He was a machinist and had actually directed the tech shops out there for many years. So he probably—that family has more history of the Manhattan Project than I do. Mine is just history. It was—I’ve had an interesting career and I guess I’ve enjoyed it here and it’s been a wonderful place to live. I think it will continue to be if we have people that keep our city from growing into something that it shouldn’t be. [LAUGHTER] But I guess I don’t have any new subjects to talk about unless you have new questions. O’Reagan: I think—that’s my list for now, but thank you so much for being here. Ballard: Well, it’s been a pleasure. O’Reagan: All right, great. Tom Hungate: I had a question. O’Reagan: Please. Hungate: One of the jobs you had—you had a wide variety of jobs; all of them sound fascinating to me. Ballard: Oh, they’re interesting, yes. Hungate: One caught my ear, because I’ve seen these. Tell me what it was like when you said you worked on the K Reactors to lay—you said you were laying up the block. Tell—describe what that process was. Ballard: Well, I wasn’t involved in that deeply as a lot of the fellows were. I can’t remember his name right now, but the primary engineer that had the graphite technology. That graphite was machined in the 101 Building. Well, actually the old reactor’s was in the old 101 Building in White Bluffs. They built a new building, the 2101 Building in the 200 East Area which was specifically for the graphite machining and layup—test layups. Those blocks were built to very tight tolerances. The graphite came in in square blocks from the manufacturers and they had to be machined to the final configuration. Those tolerances were very, very tight, like plus or minus two mils or five mils at the most. The blocks were basically four-and-three-quarters inches by four-and-three-quarters inches by 40-some inches long—the main block. After they were machined to very close tolerances, they were test stacked in the 2101 Building, laid up ten tiers to be sure that the tolerances of the assembly were precise. And from there they were packaged on pallets in sequence that they would go in, in reverse sequence, so when they took them off they were ready to be stacked up. And then they were shipped—brought into the reactor vessel, lowered down into the open process area in the center part of the core and pulled off the pallets and just stacked, piece by piece. There’s pictures available that you see of the old reactors. There may be some of K Reactors too, I don’t know, but show inside the reactors when they’re laying up with the blocks. Of course everybody’s in whites. Your cleanliness control’s very important. And of course, obviously, sequence was very, very important, to have all the blocks in there. But from my perspective, I just watched—I wasn’t doing the work, I was just part of the process that was putting them in there. It was very closely controlled and very temperature controlled—well, no, I don’t know about the temperature. The building was under limited temperature control. But the cleanliness was strictly controlled, and the workers of course had been assigned with each pallet that came in, they knew where it went and how it was to be laid. But that was the same process that was used in all the reactors for graphite layup. But that’s amazing, the way they built those things. You have all the penetrations, like—I can’t give you the numbers. K Reactors were bigger than the old original reactor. The original reactor had 2,004 process tubes. You probably all know the story of that, too. [LAUGHTER] But what I started to say was, the alignment of the holes in the blocks, of course, had to line up with the holes of the penetrations of front and rear faces precisely when they put them in. So it was like putting a watch together on a 40-foot-square [LAUGHTER]—40-foot cube. Very precise work. O’Reagan: Were there any mistakes? Ballard: Pardon? O’Reagan: Did you ever see any mistakes? Ballard: Well, no, but if there were they were corrected as they went, because they had two or three levels of inspection verified that they were going in properly. There may have been some, I don’t know. I was not in direct control of that job. I was more on the K Reactor, I just was in oversight. I don’t remember what my position was at that time, but—the B Reactor, for example, you know what happened there when they started it up? It died because of the xenon poison. They didn’t have enough neutron flux levels to override that poisoning effect. That’s when they had to add the additional fuel channels outside the original 1,500 that they had that the physicist said was adequate to drive the reactor. So that was an interesting job. They had to—the later reactors, they had more knowledge of what the requirements were. So the design wasn’t—it didn’t create a problem on initial startup like B Reactor did. O’Reagan: We were trying to outline or highlight—what sort of innovations came out of Hanford, what sort of inventions did you see—what new knowledge or techniques did you see created at Hanford? Ballard: Well, there again, you need to talk to the physicists and chemists and people that were in the fuel design areas. There were so many changes made to the fuel designs. They went from—of course these were only applicable to the graphite reactors the modern fuel originally were eight inches long when the distortion that occurred in the graphite, that was because of the structure change due to the radiation in the graphite. The channels were distorted to the point where some were so crooked that the eight-inch channel—the fuel wouldn’t go through the channel. SO they went to four-inch people—four-inch long fuel assemblies in some of those bad channels. And then of course another knowledge was the design of fuel assembly, you went from strictly external core where they just had an annulus of water around the outside cooling the fuel assembly. It went to a center core; they had internal cooling—a flow channel through the center of the element. But as far as the physics of the elements, they went from totally natural uranium, originally 238, all naturally derived with 0.7% 235. They went to some enrichment in the reactors to increase the power level. But there was physics changes all along, as far as being able to control and just knowledge of impurities and what the effects were in the nuclear physical—the physics involved in the reactor. But of course, then the Breeder Program, we didn’t talk about that. There’s a lot of advancements made there. FFTF was a marvelous machine and it produced a lot of new information from greener technology. That FFTF was—I spent ten years on development—seven on development and three on construction, so. But I wasn’t—I’m not a physicist and wasn’t into the technology as much as the people—I was more into construction, design and construction. O’Reagan: A lot of knowledge there, too, that you—hands-on knowledge. Ballard: Well, I always pride myself on being able to fix problems. We had a lot of things on assembly or putting the stuff together that just—problems or interferences or arrangements that weren’t thought of in design that we were able to resolve in the field, and that’s why I got into—I’ve been building houses for Habitat now for the last 15 years. [LAUGHTER] It’s a little different from putting reactors together, but I get a lot of comments from the instruction people in Habitat. This is not a reactor; we don’t need to have those tolerances. [LAUGHTER] But I say if you make it right, it looks a lot nicer and it goes together better. O’Reagan: All right, I guess that’s the list of questions I’ve got. I guess we’ll end it once again. Ballard: Okay, well, appreciate. <a href="https://youtu.be/-GxJwHtD_CQ">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview C Reactor B Reactor 300 Area K Reactor K East Reactor FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) FMEF (Fuels and Materials Exam Facility) 321 Building 400 Area 2101 Building 200 East Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1994 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Del Ballard Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Civil engineering Nuclear reactors Breeder reactors Description An account of the resource Del Ballard moved to Richland, Washington in 1951. Del worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1994 and was influential in the formation of the B Reactor Museum Association. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b10d9b58437486ee4cc1650b8118b29.JPG ec91cca70202c2f3af686cb3c2b19dc1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Armstrong Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. Are you ready? Dennis Armstrong: Go for it. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Dennis Armstrong on May 24, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Dennis about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Armstrong: Dennis A. Armstrong. A-R-M-S-T-R-O-N-G. D-E-N-N-I-S. Middle initial A. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Okay, great. So, Dennis, how and why did you come to the area to work for Hanford? Armstrong: Well, I thought about what kind of answer it might take to really answer that, and it probably goes clear back to high school days. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: I did something along with four other friends. Went to an open house that the Washington International Guard had in Spokane, and ended up joining the group. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: Got assigned into a aircraft maintenance group, and learned how to like airplanes. At that time, Washington Air Guard was a fighter squadron. Very close-knit group of wonderful people that I was proud to be associated with for six years. Reason that kind of influenced why I came to Hanford is because all through my four-and-a-half years at Washington State University Pullman in mechanical engineering, I had it in my mind that I was going to go to work for somebody making airplanes. And in my senior year as campus interviews were underway, in those times, it was not unusual for almost all the big companies to come to campus to do interviews. Not so nowadays. But at that time, I picked out aircraft companies. And I got some pretty good offers. Know airplanes, know how they work, know how they get put together. And I got even some exceptionally good salary offers. I showed them to my advisor, and he said, Dennis, you’re a pretty independent thinker. Just to tell me you did it, go talk to at least two or three other companies besides aircraft people. So, I go up to look at the campus interview schedule, and I picked out two, three companies, including a scheduled interview from General Electric. Not knowing whether GE made toasters or waffle irons or what, to wherever I was going to be interviewed from, I went in kind of blind, and found out it was a representative from Hanford. Franklin: Ah. Armstrong: It happened that in my work at the Washington Air Guard in the maintenance shops, I enjoyed metalworking, including—well, I was primarily doing sheet metal work and aircraft structure work. And we had a couple nice lathes that I enjoyed working with. Just nothing else, to learn how to work them. And I ended up getting a job at the department of mechanical engineers, two years running, as senior laboratory instructor in the machine shop. So, expanding on that, I did a special senior project on machinability of metals. So that came up in the course of my interview with Doug Tilson, who was the representative from GE. And he says, I’ve got exactly that job right now. I need a candidate for it. We want to hire people into our tech grad program, they called it. And yet I’ll promise you a machining research job, first assignment, if you choose to come with us. So they sent me a letter, and not quite the high salary I had from the aircraft people. But I showed these to my advisor, and he said, that’s a given. Take it. So I went back and it happened that in the dorm that I had lived in, I had a couple friends whose parents had worked at Hanford, so I knew a little teeny bit about it. Never been here. One time, one of them had brought me over to Richland, before I ended up accepting the GE offer. That time—of course, GE was still the predominant employer at Hanford, and I saw nothing of what really going on at Hanford, but I’d learned a little bit about Richland and kind of liked it. And having grown up in Spokane, I thought, why on earth do I want to go to Los Angeles and work for North American Aviation on airplanes, when I’ve got something right close in Washington State? And they offered me a job that was right in a piece of line of work that I had enjoyed, and wrote them a letter and said I’ll take it. And, well, I went through a couple questions, like, tell me more about this machining research job. And they said, well, we looked at your paper and I’ve even shown it to the people doing it, and they would like to have you come, but that’s about all we can tell you. Okay. I showed these papers to my advisor and he says, that’s a given. Take it. Franklin: So, sorry, I’d like to just ask, that’s the second time you’ve said that and I wrote that down because I wanted to explore that further. Why did your advisor feel that that was a given? Armstrong: Oh, he went on to say, I’ve been in the aircraft industry. Very structured engineering. You’re an independent thinker. Get in with some company that’s not quite as structured as the aircraft industry is. And I had no way of knowing other than to listen to him. And then couple that with the fact that here I had an offer close by. Home was still Spokane. And kind of pieced it together and my advisor knew those links and kind of felt that this would be a good placement for me. Franklin: And were you from Spokane originally? Armstrong: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: And that’s how I ended up in the Washington Air Guard in Spokane, because I’d gone to high school in Spokane and wheat farming country south of Spokane. Franklin: Yup. Okay. So describe coming to Hanford. Armstrong: Well, I show up, and here there’s 50 other brand new hires and we all report into the building. I forget the number downtown; it was in the old 700 Area. It was GE new employee processing. I would find out I was the only one that had been already named to an assignment. They had the greases on the skids and I was given a badge and said, tomorrow morning, you’ll report out to this place out at the edge of the Earth called 200 West Area, to a building called 231-Z. I had no clue what that meant. Or even what the assignment was yet. But they described and spent all the rest of the balance of that day in terms of processing me in and getting papers signed and all this stuff that goes with orientation. Next morning, a fellow named Tom Nelson, who was supervisor of metallurgy development, eventually became Battelle, but for General Electric, metallurgy development operation in 231-Z building, he came downtown, picked me up, took me out 231-Z building. And I met a fellow there who I was assigned to to do a project. His name was John Rector. I learned that I was to produce a document on a machinability state of the art of machining plutonium metal. I’d, of course, never heard of plutonium metal before. I got my Top Secret clearance at that time. And they took me over to 234-5 to the production line and I saw what the whole purpose of Hanford was all about, in making parts. At that time, we made weapon pieces here. Not commonly advertised today, but it was not secret then. And still isn’t. But— Franklin: What kinds of weapon pieces were made? Armstrong: The plutonium core for the thermonuclear devices. Franklin: Okay, and so before—how long had Hanford been making weapon pieces? Armstrong: The history goes—of course, you well know from your study of the origin of Hanford—was to make plutonium metal to be sent to Los Alamos for assembly into the Nagasaki weapon. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: They continued to make them at Los Alamos up until like ’49, 1949, at which time this famous 234-5, or now called Plutonium Finishing, that was the name given to the plant later. That was built solely for the purpose of converting plutonium nitrate to metal. And metal—they call them buttons, the product—buttons into cast pieces and machined pieces for the weapon cores. And that started in like 1949, ’50, here at Hanford. And then a few years later, they built a parallel plant at Rocky Flats. Yet I think in the early years, best I knew, Hanford made three-quarters of the production, and Rocky Flats a little less than a quarter. Still Los Alamos made a few, but the stockpile was primarily made at Hanford. And then the balance started shifting a little more to Rocky Flats, until mid-‘60s when all the production went to Rocky Flats. Well, anyway, back to my pathway. Here I was, being told to learn all there is to know and put it down in a document on machining plutonium metal. And they had had a fella out from General Electric Schenectady who was a machining expert, and he had just left to go back to GE. And he was concentrating on traditional big production, like tooling forces and horsepower to make cuts. I walked through the production line, and they wanted emphasis on accuracy. Not what the program was gearing toward. They wanted emphasis on surface finish. And I turned around the program being done by metallurgy research people, and ended up putting out a document on how to get the finest surface finish we can be able to do with the lathes they had in 234-5 Building, which happened to be some of the finest that existed in the world. So, I wrote that document. It happens to still be classified. I’ll never see it again. Yeah, that leads me to a thought on classifications at Hanford. I didn’t understand it at the time, but now I do. I used to think weapon design was the big secret; it really wasn’t. It happened that Hanford production rate was the big secret, and manufacturing technology was right behind it. So, we physically protected manufacturing technology higher than the design of the devices. Which is what you see nowadays in how close is Iran to making one? And you can betcha they’re farther ahead than our politicians think they are. Anyway, enough said. I put in four months writing that document, got published, and a fella, name of Les Brecke, who ran the production line in 234-5, invited me to come over and spend an assignment there. Still on the GE tech grad program. I had a friend that had wanted me to come and spend an assignment with the K Reactor design group, too. And I thought, well, I’ve been in one thing. I think I’ll take the K Reactor design group. And I did that. Down 762 Building, through the winter, so I didn’t have to go out to Hanford during the winter that first year. And I participated in designing a flexible horizontal control rod for the K Reactors. Was eventually fabricated and put in. At that time, operating problems with the reactors was secret. You actually got one of these flexible rods in your inventory at the museum backup storeroom. And I’ve got one of the three whole pieces of bonded carbide to go in it, because I ended up making those pieces later. I’ll get to that in a second. That was a fun assignment in terms of really designing a product and getting it approved and getting through design approval from the rather rigorous design approval process. So then I talked to Les Brecke again and said, do you still want me? And he said, absolutely, I’ll take you any time you can get here. And I ended up as my third assignment, then, in the GE tech grad program of going to production line at 234-5 Building. Two—oh, go ahead. Franklin: Sorry, I just—for those that may not be—including sometimes myself—who may not be well-versed in the numbering system— Armstrong: Oh, that. Franklin: What is—so earlier you said 231-Z and that— Armstrong: 231-Z was an original building that DuPont built to process the plutonium nitrate. And when that was moved over to the PUREX and then 234-5, which I’ll describe a little more later, the 231 Building was turned into a metallurgy development laboratory. And that eventually became a branch of Battelle when GE diversified. Franklin: And so 234-5, does that have a more common name? Armstrong: Well, the more common name is Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: Okay, so that is the PFP. Armstrong: PFP. Yeah, that name, interestingly, wasn’t coined until after the weapons mission. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: The original, it was just called 234-5 or Dash-5 or Z Plant. Never had a word name associated with it. It held a special clearance to even get in the door, you had to have—it was kind of a soft top secret clearance, called a blue tag clearance. You got a model of one of these badges there in your museum. Today, no one carries that clearance anymore, but that’s what it was, was access to weapon data processing. Franklin: Okay, my last question, what year did you come to Hanford? Armstrong: Oh! 1963. June of ’63. Franklin: You came in 1963. Armstrong: Yes. Franklin: Okay, I just wanted to establish that. Armstrong: And that was, I guess going clear back to the beginning of the story, when I joined the Air Guard when I was still in high school, that was like the 1958 timeframe, see? So all through my WSU timeframe, I was in the Air Guard, thinking of going to work for aircraft people and it wasn’t until ’62 or so that I started in the interview process to eventually take permanent employment. And then the pathway that I described, the interview from the General Electric Company here. It turned out to be here, but I didn’t know it at the time. Franklin: Gotcha, okay. Armstrong: So here I am, now, in the, it was called weapons manufacturing operation. Franklin: And this was with Les— Armstrong: With General Electric Company. With Les Brecke. Franklin: With Les Brecke, okay. Armstrong: So we did two things. We were the receiver of the plutonium button, which is the finished plutonium chunk coming from a simple term called the button line, which is part of the production in this Z Plant, or 234-5 Building, across the wall into the machining. Or first, casting. We casted this. It’s a metal just like you can cast and pour any other—lead, brass, bronze, iron. The process is quite similar. Casted into a shape, machine it to a final product, goes through inspection and package it and send it to the assembly plant. Franklin: And where was the assembly plant? Armstrong: They went first to Rocky Flats in Denver, and then down to Pantex in Texas where the final assemblies were all put together. Franklin: Right, right. Okay and so—sorry, go ahead. Armstrong: My job—the name of the group was called weapons fabrication, and my job was to overview the machining. They had just bought the set of very fine lathes that didn’t quite work as good as they thought they should. First job was figure out why. It was a kind of a combination of electronics problem and hydraulics problem that I think I solved because we made them work. So through ’63, ’64, ’65, I was in charge of those lathes pumping out parts that went to inspection. And then eventually shipped. I enjoyed it. I really did. I didn’t realize how good a job it was until it was all over. And one of the saddest things I had to do in the course of my career, we had set—we were setting with literally a five-year top secret plan of production, how many parts we were going to make every month for five years. And it went to zero overnight. Franklin: Mm. Why was that? Armstrong: : Political. Politics. Franklin: What year—when was that? Armstrong: Mid-’65, late-’65. I can’t tell you the politics of it. But the idea was save some money by shifting all the production and casting and machining over to Rocky Flats. Close down Hanford production. So that hit the newspaper and we were in one of the first major cutbacks at Hanford. It happened that the person I’d worked with in 231 Building, John Rector, had a hobby doing manufacturing in his basement. Of course, it wasn’t but the first weekend I was over to house, seeing what he was doing. He was doing stuff in his basement that was beyond a lot of capability of big production shops. He came to me and said, we’re out of a job. I was promised a position in the maintenance group. I didn’t quite know how I wanted to do that. I’m sure I could’ve negotiated something into design engineering. But John said, been my plan someday to start a full-time business. And if you want to partner with me, let’s do it. We did, and we operated out of his basement for three or four months while we built Western Sintering Company. It’s over on Stevens Drive, still running today. So I turned in my resignation to GE and we started Western Sintering Company. I enjoyed it. I truthfully enjoyed the independence of a small business for seven years. I’m still good friends with the people that run it today, including the family. I left under good pretense. And the reason I left was Atlantic Richfield, the employment relations fella named Bill Watson came to me and said, we need an engineering manager for East Area/West Area. Oh. Well, you’ve been selected to be the first offer. Oh, interesting. I’d never mailed out a resume or anything. I was selected by some friends, that when the opening was there, they scrubbed a bunch of names and came to me and said, the job is yours if you want it. And I took it. So I became the engineering manager of East Area and West Area, plant engineering. Franklin: What was so attractive about the job that you wanted it? Armstrong: Working with people. I think I saw this particularly in the production line in 234-5 Building. I was frequently being the fabrication engineer of a production operation where we had rotating shifts with five different supervisors. I was the guy that ended up as shift relief now and then. We had the finest operators that existed at Hanford. They were all hand-selected, good people. And I enjoyed working with them. They were all good to work with. So I thought, here I got a chance to work with engineers. At first I was put into a group that had about eight engineers. And then I took over from Walt Engels, who had chosen to retire under the Atlantic Richfield shingle, and took over a larger group of close to 75 people, including planning engineering for each of their established operating plants. At that time, we were still running PUREX and B Plant and 234-5. You asked about the Plutonium Finishing name to Z Plant, and that was done as kind of a last ditch, after our weapons mission was done. Rename the plant, try to get some other business here. And we did several projects. We did a couple plutonium fabrication test ingots for the Navy. And we did some plutonium heat source things for NASA. And we took in half a dozen jobs in that plant. We even made the first of the sabot units for the Army, the ones they fired over in Iraq. Those happen to have been secret when we made them. But then later they come out, the uranium sabot units for the artillery shells for tank cannons. Anyway, that was the approach to naming it Plutonium Finishing, as advertising capability out to the world that we could handle plutonium. It really was no other capability. But the bottom line, there wasn’t very many people who wanted to go out and hire that kind of work done, either. Franklin: Right, especially with the Cold War being over. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: It wasn’t until five or six years later that the plutonium uranium mixed oxide fast reactor fuels business came into play. Otherwise that would’ve been a natural for takeover by that building. But it wasn’t understood then. So, at Western Sintering, like I say, I enjoyed it. We made our own machinery. Franklin: And what did you primarily make? Armstrong: Small mechanical parts, cold compaction of metal powders into shape. And the sintering process is a furnace to diffusion bond the cold compacted metal powders into a finished structural piece. In terms of things common folk think of, little gears, little bushings, little bearings, little—and I say little because we were somewhat limited by size. The bigger the part, the bigger the press. We had made our own up to 200 ton, and that could make a part of about two-to-three square inches of surface area. Otherwise, little parts can make them pretty fast on the small ten-ton press. We actually made some ten-ton presses for the nuclear fuels industry. Primarily Westinghouse and General Electric and even Areva out here. Back then, they were Jersey Nuclear. And we sold 34 of those things around the world, including four of them to India, and two of them up to Canada. Pretty well established a name in terms of a good operating machine for that particular industry. As I say, Atlantic Richfield came to me and offered me the job of plant engineering manager, which I took. At that time, the B Plant fuels—excuse me, the strontium cesium encapsulation plant was just in final design stage and not working very good. It happened that Les Brecke had been assigned over to that building, and here I was, previous good stand with him, and suddenly I’m in charge of making his equipment that didn’t work work again. Which we did do, as a group, a team. Ended up packaging the whole inventory of strontium cesium capsules that’s now in the reservoir. It’s been sitting there for 50 years now. 40 years. Anyway, however. So, at that time, Atlantic Richfield was pretty good a contractor to work for. I’d even rank Atlantic Richfield a little higher than General Electric in terms of wanting the people to understand they worked for Atlantic Richfield. Had good relations there. If they’d have stayed a contractor, I’d probably have stayed there. It happened that they chose ten years as the contract limit, and Rockwell, new contractor, and couple things happened at Rockwell outside of Hanford. The B-1 bomber went down the tube when Jimmy Carter canceled the project. And another parent company they had, called Atomics International was doing reactor research to eventually build some gas-cooled reactors. That was pretty much down the tube. So Rockwell sat there with two sources of their own people. They brought in quite a few to Hanford. And I was told that my job would be replaced by one of them. And I could go to project management, which I did. And I didn’t care for the project management, because I enjoyed the design work, and particularly the kind of design work we were doing which was plant troubleshooting. Every week we’d have a plant managers’ meeting of all the different site plants. Whoever’s in trouble, I could solve it and—I could put my team onto it and solve it. That’s the way we were set up to do it. And I laugh at the current problem of the PUREX tunnel collapsing, because I had exactly the same issue happen back in the ‘70s. It happened that there were a bunch of low level waste disposal units called cribs. There were stacked Douglas fir timber underground, meant to be just a big void space to send low level liquid waste. People out monitoring the desert where these cribs were came back with a report over the weekend that one of these cribs had collapsed, not far from the story of the PUREX tunnel last week. And so I’m at the plant managers’ meeting and this is the big flap for the week, why did this happen and what are we going to do about it? So I came back and put one of my good civil engineers on it. He came back in about ten minutes and said, good news and bad news. Good news, I know why, and bad news, every one of them’s going to collapse. Oh, tell me more. Well, these were stacked Douglas fir timber. You’ve got about 40 years on untreated timber and then it’s going to be weak enough to rot away and they’ll collapse. Okay, what are we going to do about it? Well, we’re going to fill up the holes. So that was our carryover to the plant manager. So we eventually came up with the process to slurry up sand and pump it down every one of these holes and we eventually breached some of them. Problem was, you see, the rodents would get down into a hole and then they’d eat the strontium salts that were in this low level waste. They’d come up and the rabbits would eat the rodents, and then the coyotes would eat the rabbits, and then you’d have hot spots around the desert. And that was bad news. So we ended up vacuuming the desert. That was a legend to live down. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, I thought about the PUREX tunnel, because I knew how that one was made. And I thought, surely, those timbers are rotted away. And that’s exactly the same story. The only answer was fill it with sand. And then what are you going to do about it? Of course, plan that’s somewhat out in the newspaper is fill them with slurry and probably a grout mix. Franklin: Well, it’s all—the PUREX tunnel it’s all solid waste, right? Armstrong: No, there’s no waste in there at all. Franklin: Or it’s contaminated solid objects. Armstrong: That’s right, that’s a good way to put it. The object of the design at PUREX Plant, in the earlier fuel separation plant, REDOX, T Plant, B Plant, whenever a failed big vessel or big pump would have to be disposed of, they’d put it on a railcar and drag it out to near the desert, drag it out to the burial ground and bury it. Actually time consuming plus potential for accidents and exposure. So the idea at PUREX Plant was build a tunnel at the head end of the plant. And then it got a failed pump, failed tank, you buy an old railroad car that’s junk, put the pump on it, and send it down this railroad tunnel for somebody to worry about someday. There’s no waste in there, other than whatever residual was on the contaminated equipment. But there still could be some pretty high level stuff. Franklin: Because of what it— Armstrong: What it was handling, sure. Franklin: But no solid—but no actual— Armstrong: No actual waste like we think of waste in the waste tanks, or waste like the strontium cesium capsules in B Plant. Franklin: Did you see the infographic that Washington State Department of Ecology had put out of the tunnels? And it had the railcars, but inside the railcars was a green goo? Armstrong: I didn’t see that. Probably wouldn’t have got impressed with it. I personally don’t like the state being a regulator. I think it should’ve been kept as a federal agency. But that’s my own opinion that they wouldn’t care for today. I don’t think the state’s got any business being in the business. Enough said. I won’t—that’s not a popular area. Franklin: That’s good. Armstrong: Ha! You can edit that out. Franklin: Well, I mean, you know, it’s just an opinion. So you had worked on these cribs and filled them up with— Armstrong: A slurry of sand. Franklin: Were these constructed similarly— Armstrong: No. Franklin: --to the PUREX tunnel? Armstrong: They were a hole in the ground with—I forget what they were, like, 20-foot long timbers stacked just to make a big void space, and then a roof over the top and six, eight foot of dirt on top of it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: The whole idea was to get a big void space down underground to pump low level liquid waste. But over years of pumping low level waste in, it accumulates to high level waste, and that’s why it was bad to have the rodents down in there eating these salts. Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: So, anyway, with Rockwell coming in, and me going to project management, I had another group of people come to me, namely the Washington Public Power, we would like you to come with us. We’re building five nuclear power plants. And I said, well, I’ll be there. And so I took a job in project management of what was called the equipment qualification, namely to prove everything in the reactor was going to—everything safety-related was really going to work during every credible accident. We had about 20,000 electrical mechanical pieces of equipment that we had to have definitive proof it could stand an accident scenario. So, I’m still involved in Hanford and watching it, but yet direct employment left when I left Rockwell. Franklin: Okay. But still obviously related. Armstrong: Well, still nuclear power plant, as opposed to waste management area. Or production in the early years. Franklin: And how long were you with WPPSS? Armstrong: 18 years. Franklin: Okay. So you kind of saw, then, the full—the rise and fall, I guess one can say. Armstrong: Oh, yeah, in fact, even in organizational dynamics, this was a tough time. Organization staging for—I guess if you think of plant construction, you need one craft for some time, or one set of engineers for some period, and another set of engineers for another period. We had organizations that were struggling with trying to keep their mission alive. When Don Major, who was our general manager then, was trying his best to say, this organization’s got to phase down, because this one’s phasing up to finish the plant. But the thing that I saw my pathway pretty clear—I was kind of middle management through my whole career path, and here middle management at Washington Public Power Supply System, we could see a clear pathway to make that plant work. Something bothers me about the Vit Plant. People working on it aren’t going to see it work in the lifetime of the people working on it. That’s why I don’t like the idea of the state being involved in it. That should’ve been a small demonstration plant; could’ve been finished five years ago and working. If it worked good, we’d build two, three more of them. Franklin: Mm. Instead of building one— Armstrong: State kept insisting it’s got to be so big that once we turn it on, we’ll run all the waste through it and be done. They ended up building it so big that they couldn’t control the design process and still don’t know when it’s going to run. May never run. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: There are other ideas on what to do with waste. Some of them still being explored to maybe speed it up. But I—Savannah River has a waste evaporator and a waste melter. The titanium industry’s had titanium vacuum melters for years. We could’ve made one here. Franklin: Savannah River’s also partway through their vitrification process. But there, though, it’s easier because the chemical—they only used one—they used less chemical separations processes than we did. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So they have much less complicated— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: --waste. Armstrong: I understand that, too. You know, this is one of the things that even took me a long time to digest when I had plant engineering group over the Tank Farms and PUREX and REDOX and those, that each one put out a different product in terms of the waste composition. The process to handle it was somewhat different. But even in the years I was there, we were running the T Evaporator and the S Evaporator, and then the A Evaporator was built just after I left. They were all one mission: take the waste out of the tanks. It was done before I got there to take all the strontium and cesium out. That was done very quietly and successfully. So getting stuff out of the tanks was not a big deal. They knew how to do it. And suddenly it’s got to be reinvented. Even running the S Evaporator and T Evaporator, they were different processes, but we took a lot of water out and made a lot of space in the tanks. Some of them, they gained a little too much space and they had to put water back in to cool it down. But that’s part of the learning process. Franklin: It was meant that liquid waste would go in the tanks, right? So now that it’s been largely solidified, doesn’t that make it harder to access the waste via the existing pipes— Armstrong: Well, it sure does. Franklin: --liquid material— Armstrong: It sure does. In the first campaign of—effectively what was in there was liquids, yet a lot of stuff had settled out over the years. As they were extracting the product out of the tanks, they had some kind of pumps to get the liquid out and then some devices they called sluicers which would spray the tank bottoms, loosen up stuff so they could slurry it up and pump it on into B Plant so they could process. Still they cleaned the tanks out tolerably well. Yet the evaporator process included a type of pump called a salt well that we made in my plant engineering group, where we would literally put a well casing not far from what you see out in the desert for farming—put a well casing down in the tank so you could sift away from the salt product and get the liquid back out and send it to the evaporators. So every one of the tanks went through the salt well campaign of extracting liquids to try to get it solid. So this leaves a little different product to get out of there now. At that time, the idea was remote shovels and stuff like that to dig it out. That, I think was demonstrated doable. Yet concurrently, we had almost the same game that they got now. I’d get a call over the weekend, this tank’s potential leaker just got a high drywell indication, what should we do? And we’d come up with a plan to route piping and pump it over to another tank. And we think that one’s good so we’ll try that one for a while. Yeah, that one seems to be holding it. And then we had a big master chart—this was before computers could take care of things to count for you—we had a big chart of which tanks were suspected leakers, known leakers, possible leakers, and three or four other categories of maybe they’re okay or maybe not. We got space here but not there. [LAUGHTER] Same game that you read about in the paper today. But a little different product to have to handle, I do admit that. My own desires, and yet I was current plant operations/plant engineering, and Don Woodrich, in another group was long-range planning, what are we going to do with this stuff eventually? At that time it was dig it out, put it in casks and take it someplace. No one wanted it. Franklin: That’s a hard sell. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: What years was that? Armstrong: That was in the mid-‘70s. Because I left Rockwell. Rockwell came in in, I guess I’m going to say, the early ‘80s. That’s when I left and went to Washington Public Power. Franklin: How—so you were with them, with Washington Public Power, kind of until its ending— Armstrong: Well, through—I actually got caught in layoff. They wanted a headcount and they wanted dollars, and we now the four plants were put in first a construction delay and eventually a termination. It was clear that we had too many people. And the general manager had had a stroke and they hired a new guy. He come in and said, get me a list of the high dollar people in engineering, because we’re going to contract out a lot of this business. I was one of the higher paid engineers or managers, and I got hit with a layoff in the mid-‘90s. Franklin: So what did you do after leaving WPPSS? Armstrong: Retired. [LAUGHTER] Armstrong: I chose it to be an early retirement. And I’ve been active all along in the leadership of American Society of Mechanical Engineers. So I spent a lot of time there; still do. Franklin: Great. Let’s see here. You’ve answered a lot of my questions, but I have a few more. What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Armstrong: Oh, early years, like I mentioned, being selected to go into the weapons production group. That wasn’t a group you got into very easily. The best operators and the best supervisors that existed at Hanford. We had a final mission: make parts, put them in a box and ship them. I worked there for over four years for Les Brecke, who was a tough one to work for. Never missed a single shipment. Franklin: Wow. And what about the later years? Armstrong: Atlantic Richfield years, same story. I had a wonderful group of people. I had five subsections in my plant engineer group, specifically one for each plant. But I had them all structured so if they knew I was in some trouble someplace with whatever it be, I could draw from one group and put it into another group to get through a complicated problem. And we had some issues with evaporators and with—the Tank Farms were a constant headache. Even PUREX, when they started to shut it down and then ramp it up for what was to be the last run, I somehow—the production manager’s name was a fella named Chuck Malady, and I ended up being his ghostwriter for letters that went to, it was Energy Research and Development Administration, now DOE. I wrote two letters from the president of Atlantic Richfield to DOE, then ERDA: please, let us run PUREX one more time. We’ll be done with that N Reactor fuel forever. Twice the answer came back, no, can’t do it. Please don’t ask again, because Jimmy Carter wants no more waste in the waste tanks. Instead, they let the fuel rot away in K Reactor basins. We were campaigning, let us run PUREX. We could’ve done it and been done with it. It would not have added that much waste. But that was the decision made at the presidential level. It probably cost this country a hundred billion dollars, and we’re still not willing to admit it. They still haven’t got the mess cleaned up. We had PUREX ready to go to do it. Franklin: Right, right. Interesting. Thank you. What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I guess, for example, were you around for President Kennedy’s visit? Armstrong: Yeah, in fact—[LAUGHTER] it’s kind of comical because I was working in the production line, and the message that came out was essential operations must continue, but non-essential people will be released to go to President Kennedy’s visit. And there’ll be buses to bus you down there. Les Brecke had maintained we were essential, so we weren’t going to go. And then he had a change of heart the last day, said, well, I want to keep my operators busy, but Armstrong and two or three others, you can get on the bus and go. So I was way back in the last row with the last bus that came in. I watched from way back, afar. It was fun to see it. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember President Nixon’s visit? Armstrong: Oh, I do, but I actually didn’t—I wasn’t here. I was traveling someplace. So I didn’t get in on the festivities. Franklin: Any other major events in Tri-Cities history, plant shutdowns, startups, that kind of stand out to you? Armstrong: Well, certainly the contractor changes. Even one of the comical parts with General Electric, I worked directly for this Les Brecke, and he had a rather seriously assembled dossier on every one of his people. I forget who it was that came out, it might have been George Saylor from General Electric, who was high up in the employee relations group. He says, your secretary tells us you’re not going to release your files. You must turn them in! That’s GE property. That’s not your property. Everyone will start with an empty folder when Atlantic Richfield comes in. Actually, it wasn’t Atlantic Richfield; it was an interim company called Isochem, who was a rather short-lived vendor. They were supposed to build an isotope separations plant. Never did. And then Atlantic Richfield got that contract assigned to them. Interesting style then. But anyway, bottom line is, that was kind of a comical thing. I sat out on the outside of the row and then George Saylor comes out. I was outside of his office. My office was from here to the wall from his, and I could hear him arguing, you must release your employee files because those are GE property. Not yours. Well, he eventually had to. [LAUGHTER] So we started with an empty binder on everyone. But I think he kept a few things out of there. But that was kind of an interesting thing. Another fun one that happened, still with Les Brecke—I mentioned I’d been active all along in ASME in local and national activities. Well, it happened that another fella in 234-5 Building came to me and said, hey, I see you just moved to town. Would you help us with our local section meetings? I said, oh, yeah, sure. What do you want me to do? Well, here’s ten names. You call these ten members and remind them of our next meeting. I can do that. So I put the list in my drawer and come a week before the meeting, I pull it out and start calling people. Get down about four names, and there was a boss’s boss’s boss on the list. Me, little guy on the totem pole, going to call him? I’ll skip his name. And then I call the rest and then I put the list back in my drawer. Next day, I said, hey, I promised Marv I’d call these people. I guess I’ll do it. So I called him up. He answers the phone himself. Hugh Warren here. Oh! I wanted to remind you of our ASME meeting coming up this week. Oh, yeah! I got that notice. I’m going to be there; put me down. And he remained a lifelong friend, forever. Franklin: Wow. Armstrong: And the comical thing that happened is, he says, where do you work? I said, 234-5 work. I work for Les Brecke. Oh, I’m coming down there this afternoon; I’ll stop by and say hello. So, my office door was within viewing door of Les Brecke’s office door. And in comes boss’s boss’s boss, said hello to me and we talked a few minutes and he left. Pssht! Brecke comes out, what was Warren doing down here? [LAUGHTER] Armstrong: Oh, he just popped in to say hello. Enough said, anyway. It was just kind of a comical event. There’s probably hundreds of examples like that through the years. Like I say, when I had the plant engineering group, I had wonderful people working for me. Some of them unfortunately were older than I was and we read about one every weekend now. They’re passing away. Franklin: Yeah, that’s true. What was it like living in Richland—so you would’ve moved here after Richland had become privatized. What was it like living in Richland in that area of the Cold War in the ‘60s and ‘70s? Armstrong: I can’t say that there was anything spectacular. Downtown—well, I had an apartment when I moved in to Richland across from the old Kadlec Hospital. It was one block to what was called 700 Area. They were just building the Federal Building and knocking down all the old Federal Building offices. So I had one—that K Reactor design group assignment was in 762 Building, which I’d walk half a block from my apartment into the gate on the north end of the 700 Area and walked two buildings to my—I didn’t know much about what else was going on down there, other than that it was most of design engineering for the whole site. I was specific to the K Reactor and we were in one building. You talked about Kennedy; even going back to high—excuse me, college, I had an interesting experience with him. I lived in a dormitory the first couple years. And I guess it must’ve been like 1959 or ’60, it was a Saturday, and I was on phone duty. We had one phone come in to the dorm. You’d answer it and then call a room of somebody. Well, they were holding what they called a mock political convention. I wasn’t going to go to it, but in comes this call from somebody. Hey, we’re the State of Massachusetts and we got a big deal guy here, and he’s senator, and we’ve only got two people to represent our state. Send people over here! So I could put out a message on the public announcement through the whole dorm, and then my shift was coming to the end. I decided—we gathered three or four other people and we went over to the gymnasium to be part of the Massachusetts convention for this political convention. The famous senator was John Kennedy. We sat around, the eight of us, around the room—around the circle. Oh, thank you so much for you folks participating in this important political activity. He signed my program. And did I save it? No. Franklin: So he was actually at WSU? Armstrong: Yeah! Franklin: Wow, I didn’t know that. Armstrong: In fact, I think the yearbook that year has got his picture and I’m in the shadow in the background of it or something. But I didn’t save that program that had his signature on it. He signed them all. So then, years later, he’s president, and I’m in 762 Building in the K Reactor design group. Right next to my office was the resident office of the FBI. So, I probably knew it, among the first three or four at Hanford that Kennedy had been shot. Because they came over and—we knew the FBI guys, and they knew us. I could stand in their doorway and listen to their radio chatter. Of course, we assembled in the hallway to try and learn what was happening from the FBI chatter coming in on the radio. It was a whole story that was just emerging on the national news. So kind of a close couple paths crossings there. Franklin: Yeah. That’s really interesting. Thank you. I think that might be the most detailed—one of the more detailed Kennedy visit stories I’ve ever got, you know, from an interview. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So, I guess, in closing— Armstrong: In fact, the neighbor down the street from me was a fellow named Swede Holmquist who was safety director for all of Hanford under DuPont, GE, appointed by Matthias to be safety director. Franklin: Oh, wow. Armstrong: He brought home a lot of stuff when he retired, which I have some of it now. Which you’ll get someday. But meantime, I’m going to enjoy it. Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: Including the press release notebook on the Kennedy visit. Franklin: Oh, wow. Armstrong: Thick notebook. Franklin: Wow. So in closing, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Armstrong: Well, it was serious business. And I took it that way. I had very high security clearance. I took it serious. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to students in the university environments. This is my advice to them. If you get involved in either corporate security activity or government security activity, take it serious. I did. And there’s stuff I couldn’t tell you today that I was involved in. Mostly, interestingly enough, on manufacturing technology. One time the highest level security thing we had at Hanford was production rate. You can read about it in the paper right now how many devices we made. I wouldn’t have dared told you that in the ‘60s. Franklin: Sure, but that manufacturing technology, though, is still very much— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Because of the danger of nations making-- Armstrong: Yeah, people picking up on how to do it. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Armstrong: And even though what we did 50 years ago was probably different than what they do today. I was down at the University of Nevada Las Vegas a month ago, and I met a fella that was doing the laser work on the stockpile proof-of-reliability. He knew where I’d come from. I’d been through the whole test site. They took that job serious, too. But there’s been more released on what they did than ever will be released on what Hanford did. And yet even—I meet people around the country, everybody knows about Oak Ridge. Not very many people know what happened at Hanford. And I think it’s an important thing to tell, and this is why I’m excited about seeing the B Reactor elevated. And I’d go so far as to include the other facilities. T Plant’s an important part of the whole story. Franklin: Oh, sure. I mean, the fuel doesn’t pop out of B Reactor and then just go to Los Alamos. Armstrong: In fact, when I was plant engineering manager, one thing Rockwell did when they first came to town—there were seven people, and I’ve got a picture of all seven of them, that had like 35 years of total experience going back to DuPont. They were all given a Rockwell 35-year gold watch. Two of them worked for my group. One of them was kind of a simple story; he worked at Remington—excuse me, DuPont at Salt Lake, came up to Hanford. The other had an amazing story. I held a staff meeting when I gave out these two watches to the people. Had all my people and anybody else who wanted to come. And I said, Max Yeats, I want you to—he did not know what I was going to do. I said, I want you to tell us all where you were on a certain date in 1942 or ’43, like that. I didn’t know you knew that date. Well, I know the whole story, and you’re going to tell us right now, what happened that day and forth. Well, I haven’t talked about that much. Well, you can tell it, or I’ll tell it, because I know it. And he said, okay. I went to work for Remington Arms in Kansas City. I was in charge of tooling. Machinist background, mechanical engineering graduate. One day I was called in to the boss’s office, and told I was selected for a special corporate assignment. They knew nothing about it, I was supposed to take it. What do you want to do? And he said, I don’t know, I guess I’ll take it. What would you do, you were a kid out of school, worked for six months for DuPont? So he said, here’s an envelope; open it when you get home. You’re off now. Go home. Got home, told his wife—new wife, opened the envelope: Report to Dr. Do, University of Chicago in two days. Dr. Do was code name for Fermi. He went into Fermi’s office and said, go to that meeting room, get some other people, we’ll come in and talk. He learned the whole story of what was going to happen. And his mission in being taken in to Chicago was he worked on making the fuel for the Chicago Pile. And then there were six of them sent from Chicago to Hanford, and he was project manager on construction of B Plant. Not the reactor, but the fuel separations plant. And his whole career, he stayed as this senior, strong, individual contributor, including working for me, 40 years later. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite a story. Armstrong: And that’s never documented anyplace. Franklin: Yeah, the plants really seem to suffer from a lack of documentation and just awareness. The reactors get all of the— Armstrong: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, he’d have been a wonderful person to have in your interview system, see? So I can tell the story about him now. All that came out as a result of Rockwell saying, we want to do something for the old-timers that are here. And they selected, it happened that they had some gold watches that said Rockwell on them, and they had them all in a—I gave the watches out at my own staff meeting, but then later they all assembled in the famous PUREX conference room for a group picture. And I went with them on that. I’ve got a copy of that picture with the seven people. Franklin: That’s really neat. Well, Dennis, thank you so much. It’s been a really great interview. Armstrong: Well, I could probably talk for an hour and two hours. I’m getting hoarse here, but I enjoy the history. I think you know that Don Sorenson and I both kind of partner in researching what we can. He’s two lightyears ahead of me and yet I’ve got stuff he’d enjoy having. I kind of got hooked on it when I cleaned out Swede Holmquist’s house. I wish I’d’ve saved more, but unfortunately, he’d brought home boxes full of historical papers, put them in his basement under a window where the sprinklers were running, and I opened up these boxes and they were all moldy. I didn’t want to kill myself. Including a big, thick white binder on the collapse of the second PUREX tunnel. I opened up, looked at the pictures and threw it in the dumpster. And probably that was the only one that existed. Yet that report might be in the library someplace. But it’s so hard to find stuff in the library. Don’s got access to more pictures. He has thousands of pictures. And his son collects pictures of Richland. Kind of an interesting tie. Franklin: Yeah, his Vintage Tri-Cities Facebook was just in the paper the other day. He likes a lot of our Facebook posts. That’s when I first found out about him. Armstrong: Yeah. Yet I’ve got some safety plaques that—I’ve got one 1944 from the National Safety Council to Hanford, 1944. And I’ve got 1945. I’ve got three bronze plaques that Holmquist lugged home. And I’ve got one that Kennedy gave the Site. In fact, have you been to the Nevada Test Site Museum? Franklin: I have not. Armstrong: Worthwhile going and see what they’ve done there. I’ll sign your travel authorization if you want to go. It won’t mean much when the dollars come, but. I’ve been there a number of times. In fact, I went again when I was—the student conference I put on in the University of Nevada. When the afternoon was quiet, I’d go over to the museum. Well, on an earlier visit, I’m standing inside the library. They’ve got a public reading room in addition to the museum tour. They’ve got this plaque hanging there, John F. Kennedy presents to the Atomic Energy Commission Sites. Docent walks up to me and says, isn’t that neat? You ever seen one of those? I said, yeah, I’ve got one hanging just like it in my room! Oh, you do? [LAUGHTER] I suspect it was a case where one had been given to each site. So probably half a dozen of those exist; I might have one of two that remain. I don’t know if Oak Ridge’s still exist. But these bronze ones, you’ll get them someday. In the meantime, I offered to give Connie a couple of them once. And I said, only one condition: you hang it in the museum. If it’s going to go in a filing cabinet, you can’t have it. And as you’re aware, museums don’t take things with conditions. Franklin: That’s true. Armstrong: Unless it’s a loan to special purpose. So it’s still hanging in my room. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, Dennis, if there’s other—if you think of things later on that you want to talk about, we’d be happy to schedule another interview with you. Armstrong: Or my experience might even be more broad than a lot of other folks. So if you get into an area where you want to amplify something, I’m on recall. I’m happy to do it for you. Because I think preserving the history is critical to the good work that so many thousands of people did at Hanford. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Paul Tibbetts and probably half a dozen of the crew with the first missions. Every one of them said the same story. People ask them, would you do it again? And the answer is, we were young Army officers, we were described a problem, we saluted and we did it. It wasn’t our position to challenge it. I kind of feel the same way, having been involved in production at Hanford. Didn’t bother me I participated in making many thousands of warheads. We only used a few of them, and those are the ones that I know got shot down in Nevada. And I learned later which ones got shot, because in my last year or so I was by I guess seniority, I was declared to be the authorized shipper of the final product out of Hanford. So every one of the shipments, including— I remember one time, the couriers would show up at the backdoor at 234-5. We’re here to take today’s shipment. Okay, sign here. And you got them. So they got sent down to Rocky Flats on a railroad car. It had a code name, Redwood car. It was always kind of parked up in the West Area shop area. Nobody knew what it was, unless you knew what it was. It was a US Mail car. It was painted just, US Mail No entry. I said to one of the couriers, hey, I want to see the inside of your railcar. Oh, yeah, come on up! No problem. Oh! I’ll be up. He took off with the load, and I went and got a car and took off. I got to be in the vault there that was normally off-limits to GE people. They closed the door and a guy sitting at each end of it with a machine gun, and off they went to Rocky Flats on a railcar. So anyway, those are fun little stories. I could probably have a thousand more. But I had fun during my career and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. I really would. Franklin: Good. Well, Dennis, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Armstrong: Well, thank you for putting the time into it and the effort. I think it’s a good program. Franklin: Well, good. Thank you. Thank you for contributing. <a href="https://youtu.be/K5g1SgVQMS8">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area 200 West Area 231-Z Building 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Plant K Reactor 762 Building PUREX Z Plant B Plant REDOX T Plant WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) Tank Farms N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1963- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Armstrong Description An account of the resource Dennis Armstrong moved to Richland, Washington in 1963 to work on the Hanford Site as a Mechanical Engineer. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/24/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Spokane (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Mechanical engineering Plutonium industry Plutonium--Metallurgy Nuclear industry Nuclear weapons industry Nuclear weapons plants Nuclear power plants Radioactive waste disposal https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F40dfecfcfb14b42ffd68426733942f40.jpg ed6e594965bb469d8310a1facdddd049 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Brunson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right. We are ready. Dennis Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Dennis Brunson on October 18, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Dennis about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Brunson: My name is Dennis, D-E-N-N-I-S, Brunson, B-R-U-N-S-O-N. Franklin: Great. Okay, so the best place to begin is the beginning. So when and where were you born? Brunson: I was born in LaGrande, Oregon. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: In 1943. Franklin: And how did you come to Washington? Brunson: My family moved my junior—beginning of my junior year of high school to LaCrosse, which is up towards Pullman. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: My dad was a foreman on a cattle ranch. Franklin: Hmm. Brunson: That’s where I— Franklin: Was your dad in the cattle business for most of his— Brunson: Yeah, he was a farmer and we owned a meat market in eastern Oregon. That’s how I got up here. Franklin: Okay. And then you went to high school in LaGrande? Brunson: No, in LaCrosse. Franklin: In LaCrosse, sorry. Brunson: I married my high school sweetheart, who was a year ahead of me. I was a football player, and I had some success at playing football, and had been given an offer to play football at Columbia Basin College in Pasco, back in the day when they had an outstanding football program. On my way to that end, I damaged my neck severely in a football game—my last football game in high school, and I could no longer play football. But I was already—had plans to go to CBC, and I followed through. So I came to CBC, and I took a class there that was a special class that Boeing had initiated, basically, to produce illustrators for Boeing Company in Seattle. They didn’t have near enough technical illustrators. So I went through that program and found that there was a pretty high need for illustrators, and they used them here at Hanford as well. So my wife worked for General Electric, and her boss at the time and my future boss played golf together. We had planned on going to Seattle to start my career over there, and ultimately, I was hired to come to work at Hanford as an illustrator for Vitro Engineering Company. Franklin: Okay. And so what kind of projects did you work on while in this first job at Hanford? Brunson: Okay. I did a lot of—because I was an illustrator and artist, I was put in the piping department, which was a large section, because they were retooling the Hanford site at that time to process chemicals. My first job, basically, was as-built drawings. I would go into zones where the pipefitters had recreated the new version, and I would go in and follow blueprints to make sure that what went on the final drawings was the way it was built. And oftentimes, there were things that the designers couldn’t see. So they would get someone like me to go in and sit and draw all these things out, and double-check and make sure that it was as-built. That wasn’t always an easy task, because some of the zones we were in were very hot. And we would have to draw with coveralls on, and head gear, and gloves. It was a slow process. Franklin: How would—so obviously, all that gear can be cleaned, but what you’re drawing on, then might also soak up radiation as well? Or--? Brunson: Well, there was a possibility that you could be contaminated, and they were very careful, which I was thankful for. I always had a radiation monitor with me. If something in the atmosphere was airborne, he knew about it, because he had an indicator. We would get out of there. That happened a few times, but it wasn’t all that bad. Franklin: What kinds of—did you work all over site doing these as-builts, or is there any building or buildings that come to mind? Brunson: Well, in the 200 Area mostly is where I did that. In the T, U, and B Buildings, I think they were, at that time, they were retooling the Canyon buildings, or some of the cells for processing thorium. That’s what, basically, what we were doing. When I wasn’t doing as-built drawings, I worked as an illustrator and a design draftsman. I was trained well to do that, and I really enjoyed it. Franklin: When did you start this first—when did you start at Hanford? Do you remember what year? Brunson: Yeah, it was 1964. Franklin: 1964. And how long did you work as an illustrator and doing the as-builts? Brunson: For that—during that phase of my career, it was two years. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: I worked there two years, and then I went back to my wife’s family farm, and we leased one of my father-in-law’s ranches and tried to make a living raising wheat and sheep and cattle and all of that. Franklin: What was the reason for that change? Or, why—why did you— Brunson: Why’d I leave Hanford and go back to the farm? Franklin: Yeah, why-- Brunson: Well, it was an offer that I couldn’t refuse. My father-in-law was having health issues, and he came to me and said, hey, I need some help. So we did what we had to do. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: And we tried to make a living, but—you know, I was glad that I had a connection at Hanford. Because in 1970, we came back and moved to Richland and started with WADCO Corporation as a technical illustrator. Franklin: WADCO. And what does—do you remember what WADCO stands for? Brunson: Well, it depends on who you were talking to. It was Westinghouse Advanced Development Corporation, but the locals here called Wild Ass Development Corporation. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Brunson: Because they had a way of getting things done. Franklin: Ah. Brunson: My reason for being there—I was hired as an illustrator, because they had taken over the FFTF design and management. It had been in thought process for several years prior to that. They took over, and there were services that were provided to the contractors here. But they had a difficult time—Westinghouse, or WADCO had a difficult time getting what they needed in the timeframes that they were being asked to deliver. So they had to go out and get some service people of their own to keep that flowing. That’s how I came in. I was the first illustrator they had. Franklin: First illustrator. And I noticed a lot of the material you brought in today—which we’ll show some of that later—I noticed a lot of that pertains to FFTF. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: So it seems you were married to that—that was a large part of your illustrator, or graphic design work, was for that reactor. Brunson: Yeah. When I started with the WADCO, and when I—that melded right into Westinghouse—it was the same parent company; they just changed the structure. I went from there until Boeing took over. That was 17 years. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So I did that for 17 years. That’s the reason I have—my very first job at WADCO was another gentleman and I were asked to go down to Safeway and buy a 50-pound sack of flour. We went out to the desert, and there was a post out there where the center of the reactor core was. This was before they scraped anything away. We made a big giant X in the sand, and made it nice and tidy so that from an aerial photograph, it appeared to be a giant X. X marks the spot, for this—that was prior to the—for the first excavation. So that was the first thing that we did—I mean, that was noteworthy. The next day or two after they had photographically recorded that, they came in with the earth moving equipment to start the lay-down of the bottom of the reactor. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: And so that’s something that I did [LAUGHTER] that was unusual. Franklin: So you were there right at the genesis— Brunson: In the beginning. Franklin: Yeah. Literally at the center of the— Brunson: Center of the project. Franklin: Center of the reactor. So what other kinds of work did you do in that 17-year span for WADCO? Brunson: Well, I started out as an illustrator, and we worked night and day, seven days a week. Forever and ever and ever it went on. It was a wild ride. But we produced visual aids, slides and viewgraphs, and posters for poster sessions. And a lot of them. In addition to that, we also created an ongoing report of activities because we were building something new that had never been done. So we had, in addition to the graphics department, we had photographers and editorial staff, and the typing pool, and all of the support that is required to put out reports—technical reports. It was a large group. We were asked to create a history as we went along. That was—we were part of a national lab, and it was—that was something you had to do. It’s in record form somewhere, if our computers can read it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I believe a lot of that material is actually in hard copy in our collections. Brunson: Yeah. It is, yeah. Franklin: I’ve gone through a lot of FFTF boxes. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So you were the first person in this department, then. So how big did this department end up becoming? And did you take a supervisory role? Brunson: Yes. At one time, we had around 25 people in that particular graphics department. I started out as an illustrator, and then was promoted to senior illustrator, and then supervisor, or art director. And then in a short while, I was promoted to manager of media services, which included the graphics department and photography and audio-visual, which was one tight group. As time went on, over a few years, I was assigned other management in the communications department. And that’s what I did. Then when we—after 17 years, when Boeing came to town, things—when we went into Boeing, I worked—managed several departments. The photography, audio-visual, motion picture group. So anyway, I’m getting off track. Franklin: No, not at all. Brunson: That’s kind of the trail that I had through the process. The entire time that we were working there, I’ve seen other groups that they provided a service, but were never considered, or they never felt like they were part of a team. That was the one nice thing about that graphics and photography departments—you were part of a team. We were involved with just about everything that went through the company. We were appreciated by the management, because they’d have been in trouble without a good group of people who were cooperative and willing to work every night, and into the wee hours of the morning, and still come back the next day and smile about it. And it was fun. You have to remember that people like in those kind of service departments, by and large, they’re people that are getting paid good money to do their hobby. Franklin: Right, right. Brunson: So the photographers loved it. They loved the challenge of going into a hot zone and taking pictures. It was something they looked forward to. It was something they could learn from, and create new techniques to do a good job. So that’s a pretty good base for contented employees, if you can have that. We were fortunate that most of us were about the same age, and we had fun, we had potlucks, we did all the things, we were rewarded for our efforts by the company, by the management. So it was a feel-good—we felt good that we provided service. I brought here 40 years of samples of work that we did that is proof. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And it’s something that the people who were in those type jobs can take this to a potential new job, say, this is what I do, here it is. And it’s something that you can look at and see. Most all of us retired or are retiring from that line of service—everybody’s gotten older, of course. And now everybody runs the computer. That’s the way it—that’s how it worked for us. Franklin: Right. Yeah, a lot of your material—a lot of those materials are in the Hanford Collection. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: And are identified as being very historically valuable. So I think that’s a testament to you—to the work of your group. Brunson: Yeah. Well, the models—you have so many fantastic models in your collection. And I don’t know that you have more than what I saw in the walk-through the other day at the open house. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: I suspect that you have more of them somewhere, because there was a lot of them that we produced. Franklin: Well, what’s in the collection right now is everything that’s been identified to be put in the collection. If there’s models somewhere else, they just aren’t part of our collection, so the DOE hasn’t put them in the collection. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: I hope there are, too, because they’re very—they have their own preservation challenges, but they’re very engaging. Brunson: Yup. Franklin: People really like the models. So you worked for Westinghouse for 17 years. Brunson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So that would have been from ’70 to ’87. And then saying ’87 is also significant, because that’s our kind of shutdown of production year. Brunson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So who did you work for, or—describe that transition to your new— Brunson: From Westinghouse to Boeing? Franklin: Yeah. Brunson: That was—in my eyes, I was very, very disappointed that we went to work for Boeing. We were given away to Boeing as part of the contract. Boeing was given all of the services: photography, video, graphics, printing, publication services—those were all part of the deal. Westinghouse gave—Westinghouse and Boeing partnered. The Westinghouse part of it, they took a bunch of labs from Battelle—or gave some to Battelle—I’m sorry. Battelle had a wonderful photography department and graphics department. They, along with the Westinghouse services, were all given to Boeing. Boeing—it was Boeing Computer Services—and the manager there wasn’t all that familiar with what we provided for the site, and wasn’t all that interested in finding out. He didn’t last very long, but the new management came in and they provided—they were good. They were a good company to work for at that time. But they—because of that, people like myself—I went there as a manager of the graphics department, and was quickly asked to go work and put out a big fire at the publications, printing and reproductions services group, which was a large group. So I was there for a year, managing that group. When the manager of photography and video, which was 65 people—professionals there, he decided to retire early, so I was asked then to go take care of that group, which was a challenge. I really liked it. It was a real good challenge. We had several large groups throughout—down this part of Hanford. We were asked, basically, to reduce that by half, as far as the square footage and all that. So we did a lot of consolidating and all that. And at the same time that that was going on, we were sort of downsizing. It’s when the digital world suddenly was upon us, and we were challenged. We had one of the nicest color labs, in the Federal Building, that was in the Northwest. It was fabulous. And we had the large black-and-white lab in the 300 Area. Franklin: Sorry, can you just describe what a color lab and a black—you mean for reproduction or for photographs? Brunson: For photographs. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: It was quite complex. And what I guess—I can give you an oversight of that, but it would really be great if you can get someone—Dan Ostergaard or someone like that—to sit in this chair and give you a real version of the macrographs and things that they did, as it relates to fuel—the nuclear fuel production. It was a whole new world, and it was an unusual world that they lived in. But by and large, we had photographers—and this was a collection of probably ten really high quality, well-educated technical photographers that provided service for the site. That included hot cells. We had permanent staff in the 200 Area that provided really hard work, as far as recording things in cells where they were doing testing and what-have-you. We had a couple guys that flew aerials every week. They would fly and take pictures of the development of our—whatever was happening on the site. We had—the black-and-white lab was in 300 Area, and they produced all of the negatives, they processed, they did a lot of the printing. They did color printing as well in the small scale. But in the Federal Building, we had a full-blown color printing process that went on there. You could do photographs that were six feet wide and 40 feet long. We had that ability. That work was done mostly for public relations type activities. I mean, that was—they did a lot of macrographs, and that’s—you take a fuel pin, or a piece of fuel—carbon—put it under a million-volt electron microscope, and enlarge that pin up to like four feet wide, and it’d be done in sections. We had folks in the lab that would cut all these things apart and put them back together. It’s kind of hard to describe unless you have a picture of it. But they ended up being this big macrograph that they would then re-photograph and reduce down, and that was—they used that for the research on what happens to nuclear fuels when it’s irradiated. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: So it was a technical process. Photography and graphics both were the last people in the line when something had to be—a report had to go in, or somebody was getting on an airplane to go to D.C. or Virginia, or Europe or someplace for a critical meeting. They’d change and change and change right up to the last minute, and then dump it on us. And our challenge was to produce something that met their needs in the remaining wee hours of the morning. Franklin: Mm-hmm. You mentioned it earlier, so I’d like to go back to it—can you describe—because the digital revolution, right, affected us all in terms of our computer use, but I imagine especially it would have affected the photography and graphic arts departments. Brunson: Yes. Franklin: So I’d like you to kind of talk about those—that change. That whole transformation of that technology. Brunson: That was a process that we all went through, depending on what seat we were sitting at the time. I’ll start with graphics. In the graphics department, we had assigned a young lady the job of gathering the data for our first computer systems. She was looking at things on the PC side and on the Apple side. At that time, the Macintosh had software that was user friendly. We all—we went that way with the Apple—Mac. Franklin: In many cases, they’re still often the— Brunson: Understand. Franklin: --computers of choice for graphics and audio-video. Brunson: Certainly. But what we ran up against, especially with Boeing—Boeing saying, no way, we’re not going to go with anything Apple. You can kiss your Apples goodbye, because we’re not going to go that route. But they didn’t have the software development on the PC side that met our needs. So we’d keep putting them off and putting them off. I know some of their departments now are all back on that side of the fence. But that went on in the graphics side, but on the photography side, it was a real struggle, because our photographers came from the old school—film—and fortunately we had a few guys who were advocates for the digital end and helped us stumble through that. It was a rough journey. But it changed everything we did. We—a group of 75 people—there are now zero photographers at Hanford that we know of—that I know of. They’ve all went by the way of—they’re extinct. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And the technology now is—you might not get the same—always the same quality— Brunson: No. Franklin: --but now that everyone has a camera for most purposes that you can document a lot of the history out there. Yeah. So how did—so on the graphics side are you talking mostly about CAD software? Or is that—what kinds of software did you— Brunson: Well, we used— Franklin: Did you use for the graphics software? Brunson: We used FreeHand and Photoshop and those types of Illustrator-type softwares. [SIGH] I’m drawing a blank here. You can cut this out, I guess. Can we stop just a sec? Franklin: Yeah, sure, of course. Brunson: Okay. Get my head on straight. Franklin: Yeah, no worries. Brunson: Where I was going. Ask me the question again. Franklin: I was just—what kinds of software did you primarily use in the— Brunson: Oh, okay. In the graphics side. Franklin: In the graphics process, yeah. Brunson: It was, on the Mac side, it was FreeHand, was our base—when I was heavily involved with it, that was the base. On the PC side, we used Corel Draw, and we used Illustrator and those were kind of the basic ones that I was familiar with. Franklin: When did you feel—because computer power has almost exponentially increased since the invention of the microchip. So when did you finally feel, from a professional standpoint, that these computer technologies were on par or had surpassed a lot of what had been done, then, by analog technologies? Or did you ever feel that it was that way? Brunson: Yeah. When I was at the end of my career—I left there in 2008—by about that time, we were overcome by good technology. Before that, some of the new guys that came in who were really well-trained, it was—they made computers do things that you wonder, how in the world did they do that? You were kind of glad you were getting old. [LAUGHTER] I’ll give you just a brief—at one point when I was with Lockheed, I was asked to go to work on a proposal in the Washington, DC area for the FBI. We were there most of the summer, about 35 days, 40 days, I guess. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: I had familiarity with—a lot of experience with FreeHand. So the last thing I was told before I left was, oh, by the way, they don’t use Macs. They use Corel Draw on PC. I looked at him and I said, I’ve never done any Corel work. Well, you better get started! So I’m getting on, packing my suitcase to go put my life on the line in Virginia or Maryland. So I had a real learning curve, the first week there. And I made it. I got so that I really liked the program. But it was—everything’s about the same, except it’s a little different. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, you might—the basics are probably pretty easily transferrable, but there’s the details and special features. Brunson: Yup, that’s exactly it. Franklin: So how long did you work for Boeing, and when did Boeing transition? It went from Boeing to Lockheed? Brunson: Boeing to Lockheed. Franklin: And when did that— Brunson: I think that was nine years later—I think I worked for Boeing for nine years before Lockheed came to town. I think. [LAUGHTER] I have it written down somewhere. Franklin: Right, no, that’s understandable. And you worked there until May 2008? Brunson: 2008. Franklin: Can you talk about the—so you worked for Westinghouse—Westinghouse Hanford, Boeing, Lockheed Martin—can you talk about the—I mean you talked a little bit about the attitude between the change in contractors, but was that a—was there kind of like a culture change as well? Brunson: Oh. Franklin: And did your group have to kind of readjust, or were you sheltered from the larger storm of contractors, contractor change? Brunson: Well, we—in a group like—in some groups it was no problem at all, no hassle, nothing to worry about. In our groups, we worked at a level in the company where we were part of—we were part of all the stuff. So when we lost our mothership so to speak, there were hurt feelings and there was a lot of unknown canyons to go down, as far as—we worried about it. We worried about it, that these changes breaking us up and tearing us apart, and it always seemed to do that to some extent. The Lockheed was different than the others—Lockheed Martin—because they were still tied to Lockheed Corporate. There was a Hanford and a Corporate. And half the stuff that we did, we were working for Lockheed Martin Corporate, but we were here. It was—there were a lot more challenges for our organization, and it was more contractor-supported than it was Hanford-supported. I was kind of the Hanford guy. Franklin: Right. Brunson: For years. I was an art director, where most of the old Hanford numbers—everything would come to me, and we would then, you know, get it done, and get it filed correctly and all of that. But there were times, like when I went to work for on this FBI proposal, that that was purely Lockheed Martin. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So that gave people like me a chance to learn other things and do other things, and it made a better person out of all of us, because we got to do things that—we were tied to the Hanford fence previously. So I don’t know if that answers your question or not. Franklin: Yeah, I think that answers it really well. Brunson: But you have to remember, whenever a contractor came in to take over, there was a proposal. You know, the Department of Energy or AEC or whoever we were at the time, they said, hey, you guys have been doing this work for x number of years. We want to see whether we can get it done cheaper. So every time that happened, every time somebody else took over the contract, there’s things that were lost that we were used to. Whether that was good or bad—most of the time you thought it was bad, because that’s not the way it’s always been done. Just fear of change. There was a lot of downsizing that went on. So groups that had had 65, 68 people in them, suddenly they were down to 20. That meant people went somewhere else to work. So there were layoffs. Franklin: Right, because as you mentioned, a lot of the point of this bidding and contracts was to get the work done at the lowest price. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So there’s an incentive there to cut costs when and where you could. Brunson: Yeah. When we transferred—I’d been at Westinghouse 17 years, and I provided quite a bit of work for the proposal. My manager, who was [UNKNOWN], she was the manager of technical communications at the time—she went back to Pittsburgh and worked for almost six months as part of that team. I took her job during that timeframe. We were so excited that we won—we won the bid—and come back and find that—sorry, guys, you’re not going to be Westinghouse anymore; you’re going to Boeing. That was very disheartening to those of us who had been branded with the Circle-W on our butt. We were disappointed and feelings were hurt. Franklin: Right, right. Brunson: It caused all kinds of trauma for a lot of people for a short time. Franklin: Speaking of branding, for work done on the—did each contractor have its own kind of corporate branding that it used on all its own publications, used at Hanford? Did you have to learn a whole new set of corporate graphic identity each time? Brunson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Oftentimes—and there were also—Department of Energy had their own branding, if you will. So there was always a little muddy water about the use of logos and the use of the fonts that were used, the different kinds of fonts, and the colors, and all of that. It was an interesting journey. I’ll put it that way. Franklin: Brand identities, almost sacred. Brunson: Well, it was. Westinghouse, Boeing, and Lockheed Martin all had extreme control on their—they had someone at headquarters that had an eye on everything we did, because we were always getting our hand slapped. You can’t do that. Franklin: Well, let me tell you, it’s the same here. Brunson: Yup. Well, that’s-- Franklin: Everyone’s interested in preserving their brand identity. Was the majority of your work—or I guess maybe can you describe the balance of your work—was it public, for public consumption, or private consumption, or a mixture of both, the work that you did at Hanford? Brunson: It depends on at what phase of my career. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: There were times in the early part of the career that everything that I touched went into a report or a presentation for the site. Franklin: Okay. So for internal consumption? Brunson: Internal. As time went on, some of that—at that time, most of it was, you know, you had to have a Q clearance to be there to begin with. Most everything was pretty private because, on FFTF, that was a new technology and we didn’t do an awful lot of sharing with the public. But then, as time went on and you started doing other things in the career path, you got to do things that were more fun. Public presentations and work for the science centers and things like that, and displays and what-have-you. Franklin: Did your group do work for the Hanford Science Center? Brunson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. How involved were you with the Hanford Science Center? Brunson: As required. We had projects that we would work through. There were several contractors that provided the same service. FFTF, we did a lot of models, as you already know, for FFTF because it was all new. It was new technology, it was a new thought process, and it was new. We had a lot of visitors from throughout the world. We developed the Science Center in the 400 Area out at FFTF that ultimately became the CREHST museum. They moved that building down, downtown. Franklin: Was that the same building that Allied Arts is in—that’s the former CREHST, right? Brunson: No, that’s—CREHST is just a couple notches down. Franklin: Sorry, I’m pretty new to the area. I moved here after CREHST had closed down. So the CREHST building, though, is a former site building? Brunson: It was built on at the 400 Area on a little ridge overlooking the reactor. Franklin: Oh. Brunson: It was put up in a hurry, and we built beautiful displays in there. You could go off—you could drive out there without a badge, and you could go in and go through the Science Center, the Visitors Center, we called it. FFTF Visitors Center. And it told the entire story; we had visual presentation, we had like six projectors that showed these—you could sit through a 30-minute 35-millimeter slide presentation with sound and all that. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: So that was—and that’s where most of those models were ultimately ended up. Some of them were actually in the reactor building itself, where visitors would come in and you could use—you couldn’t go in there because it was hot, but you could look at this model and they could point out various activities that were going on. Franklin: Did you do any work at all at the CREHST museum? Brunson: Personally, I did not, but our staff did. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Mike Reisenauer did a lot of work for the museum down there. He built a lot of displays at Lockheed Martin. Franklin: Right, because I know that some of the items in our collection from that CREHST Museum were donated by Lockheed Martin. So that’s why I thought there might have been a— Brunson: There were a lot of the things that were in the basement there, which you never got to see, but there was a lot of material that we had created for other displays in the Lockheed Martin Center. We had a building out at the Richland Airport that was—we had a complete model shop in there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: And that’s where a lot of that stuff was manufactured. Parts—I wasn’t—I never did work in there, but we were—we managed that. It was what it was. Franklin: Right. Brunson: It was as required, we did it. Franklin: Right, right. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to mention? Brunson: Well, one of the things that I thought about in coming out here was that in the beginning, prior, you know, in the 50s—the 40s and the 50s, there were very few illustrators. There were very few technical illustrators who knew what to do. There were a few, but on the Hanford site, that often was—that type of work was performed by sign painters. That was a whole new world. It was—a lot of the big visuals back in those days were done by the sign shops. There were a number of sign painters at Hanford. I never did find out how many there were, but each area had two or three or maybe about as many as five sign painters. Franklin: Yeah, we have a lot of signs in our collection. A lot of hand-painted signs. Brunson: Yeah, but a lot of them—I mean 99% of them—weren’t painted on a board or on a piece of metal. They were painted on a tank or a wall or a series of pipes. They became pretty crafty. Sometimes there was a little head-butting that went on between the crafts, you know—you guys can’t do that. Well, yeah, we can. Look, we did it. Well, you’re not supposed to. Well, no, you’re not supposed to. So there was some near-issues with union—or labor and non-labor activities. But the early sign painters were really good artists. The ones that we formatted—or that we faced with, they were really good artists. They were hardly ever recognized as such. Franklin: When did that profession—when did the sign painters start to kind of fade away on the Hanford site? Brunson: Well, they still have them, but now they all have the digital—everything’s digital, and vinyl cutting. I mean, it’s kind of like a graphics shop now. Franklin: Well, I imagine that would’ve been folded kind of into graphic design. Brunson: Yeah, but it never—to my knowledge, it’s never ever—you know, there’s these guys, the ones with x’s on their stomachs and those that have zeros on their stomachs. To my knowledge, they’re still a separate entity. Franklin: Interesting. What kinds of tools did you use as an illustrator when you were doing these drawings and things? What kind of—did you have access to a pretty wide array of tools, or what? Brunson: Well, yes, we did, for the time. At the time, we did. In the early days, we had typesetting machines that had—it was the black-and-white film and we had fonts that were big, and you’d spin it around—if you were spelling something out, you’d spin it around, and then you’d expose it, and it would be exposed to a tape that was going through a photo bath which was all self-contained. It would come out the other side in these long strips—you might have 50 feet of it. There was always problems with the process, too. But we would dry that—or it would come out and it would dry. Then we’d put it through a machine that was a waxer. It would wax the backs of it. Then we’d put it on our drying boards—big Hamilton drying boards, with a long straightedge on it, and we’d cut out all these letters. Then we’d lay them up on the board a line at a time, and clean them up, and then send it to photography to have a photomechanical transfer, which was a black-and-white print. So, a-ha, here it is. Or you could get that same—like the film that I have over here, that is a clear photo—it’s a positive, film positive. And then you can either lay that over another graphics that was airbrushed, or you can paint the back of it, and that was the one that we found on the shelf back on our tour through there of the interim K storage—an illustration. That was an evolution. We went from doing airbrush drawings that was very, very time-consuming. I brought my airbrush and some of the tools. And it was kind of a one-time deal. Back then, to be an illustrator, an artist, you had to be an illustrator and an artist. You couldn’t fake it. You had to know what you were doing. So if you made a boo-boo, you were in trouble. And if somebody who was a good illustrator, but they were clumsy and sloppy, they didn’t last very long, because you couldn’t afford to have him redo it and redo it, you know? So that took a lot of pretty good artists out of the picture, because they couldn’t do what was required of them. Franklin: Right. Well, this sounds like it would be a great time to take a quick break and set up to view some of the materials that you brought. Brunson: Sure. Franklin: To kind of illustrate—literally—your work. Brunson: Okay. Franklin: So we’ll just, we’ll shut it off and then we’ll— [VIDEO CUTS] Brunson: Well, I’ll give it a shot. I’ve done this a few times over the years for schools and what-have-you where I have the thing in my—I have a big studio, I have it all laid out. It’s kind of awkward this way. But basically, an illustration is done—or was done at that time—our client, an engineer, would contact us and come in with the stack of drawings where they needed an illustration done, and what they kind of wanted as the end product. And what we would do is assign it to an illustrator, and he would start by doing a rough pencil sketch after looking at the blueprints to say, is this kind of what you want? Yes, that’s what—he’d come back, and after an initial rough, and then he would start ploughing through all the data. Basically, its drawings were to scale and oftentimes a cutaway to show how it worked. But it had to be accurate, and it had to be the right scale, which was kind of a unique part of the job that we did. The way we would ordinarily lay it out would be we would use all the tools we had in our tool chest to lay it out and to draw it. We would use mechanical pencils. This is a pencil sharpener. We would lay out the drawing, we would ink it then, with—once it had been approved, we would transfer it to product that was—or paper or vellum that was of high quality, or even Mylar. And then we would ink it with fine pens that would—haven’t used these for several years. [LAUGHTER] But they were varying size ink pens. Very accurate and very easy to work with. These have been around for a long time. I’ve owned this set since the early ‘60s. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: But when the illustration was laid out and done, and the engineer took a look at it, we would ask him to tell us what he wanted on a copy—a blueprint copy, to put the words on it that he wanted on it, the title. And in the beginning, the titles were normally put on with a paintbrush. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: And oftentimes red tempera paint, like we used to use in grade school, you know. It worked easy and it went down well and it looked nice. Any really fine illustrations—I should say the fonts and the wording, oftentimes if it was really important, we would use this setup, which is a template that has an indentation, and we would put one of these type of pens into a little bug. This is called the bug. And it would line up in the track. We would follow this—it’s difficult to show on here, but the line would—you would follow the lettering—I don’t know, is this going to show or not? But it would—you’d be producing a—it would be—you’d lay it on—let’s— Camera man: Can you move it around? Franklin: Maybe we can—can you flip this part of it? Can you put this over there? Brunson: Do what now? Franklin: Hold it like that. But like—maybe hold it like that so they can— Brunson: Well, yeah, that’d be wrong, but that’d be putting it down below. It’s difficult. Ultimately, what it amounts to is that you’d have a—it would be laying down on a surface, and—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, sorry, we’re not really set up for the visual displays. Brunson: But anyway, this— Camera man: If you don’t mind, maybe I’ll just get closer. Maybe that will work. Emma Jo Rice: Okay, perfect. Maybe flip it and tell him to use that? Or what do you think? Camera man: Let’s try just to get closer to it. Rice: Okay. Camera man: So I have to—just a second here. Yeah. Move that out of the way. Okay. Brunson: That do it? Well, this, basically is a stylus that follows the shape of the letter, and above up here, a pen would be laying down the letters one by one. You’d move this around until you developed a sentence or a word, a callout. So this was—it looks awkward, and it looks like it’s time-consuming, but it isn’t. In reality, it goes real quickly. And there’s—sometimes there’s boo-boos, if you aren’t watching yourself, you’ll misspell something. It’s easily done. But that was one of the—this was a nice advance, because we used to do it all with a red sable paintbrush. That’s how we’d put the lettering on the illustrations. So this type of information was giant leap forward. Then once we started getting photo paper, that enabled us to—technology just kept advancing this about as fast as we could keep up with it. And we’d buy stuff, and before the year was out, it was obsolete because something else had come along. So thank goodness, it enabled us to provide a better end product. This was just basically an illustration of—we have a photograph, a colored photograph, of one of the illustrations that shows this. I don’t know what more to say about it than that. Franklin: Okay. No, that’s great. So maybe now we’ll—do you feel comfortable, now that we’ve shown this, do you want to move on to the photographs? Brunson: Sure. Franklin: So what we’ll do then is you’ll sit where I’m sitting, I’ll kind of come around to the side. We’ll get the music stand up, get it focused on the stand, and I’ll come and bring some of our materials over here. And then we will-- Rice: Does that go down any more, or just tilt it? Camera man: That works. Rice: Okay. [INAUDIBLE] Brunson: I don’t even know who that was. Rice: I think that should be okay. Brunson: Can you— Rice: It’s actually positioned—it seems so simple, but it’s really [INAUDIBLE] What do you-- Brunson: Yeah, that’s— Rice: If you want to— Brunson: No, we can— Franklin: [INAUDIBLE] to where you’re at. Rice: Sure. Franklin: Oh, no, I’ll just be behind. Rice: Okay. Franklin: Right here. Okay. Are we ready? Camera man: Yeah, yeah. Let’s go ahead. Franklin: So this is—why don’t you describe this illustration first. What it was, where we would have found it. Brunson: Okay. This was part of the fuel development activity that was an ongoing process at Hanford for nuclear fuel. I picked this one out because it was an attractive illustration. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: There were techniques that were used on this work where I—in this particular way of putting lettering on. You’ll notice the lettering, that the callouts that identify it and the title on this, those were all—this was about a 32 x 40 inch illustration. It was a black-and-white cutaway illustration in perspective. And it was then transferred onto an illustration board, and it was airbrushed. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: Which was a time-consuming process. This whole—an illustration like this would probably take a week, a week-and-a-half to do. And it maybe changed several times during that whole process. This was an advanced technique, because prior to using these type of tools, this was often done with a paintbrush. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: Which didn’t have the same sharpness and same quality. This is a very attractive illustration. Franklin: It is. Brunson: And it’s very well done. It was, again, an airbrushed illustration. Franklin: So then, just to reiterate, the lettering on this illustration was put on there by the same method that you demonstrated there with the stylus and the guide. Brunson: Yes, that is correct. Franklin: And so that allows, I imagine, for a lot of kind of quality control over, and consistency— Brunson: Yes. Franklin: --throughout the illustration not to distract from the information being presented. Brunson: And the bad thing about doing the lettering on something like this: after you’ve already done all of this, and spent a week in that process, to have a boo-boo with the paintbrush or a bug, it was a disaster. You had bad dreams about things like that-- Franklin: Oh, jeez. Brunson: --if you’re an illustrator. Franklin: So one of the next ones, kind of a personal favorite of mine, one that’s in our collection of the FFTF, I’d like you to talk about this publication. Were you in charge of the design of this? Brunson: Well— Franklin: Oh, here, can we— Brunson: I wanted to see what was in it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: And see—I didn’t even—yeah, these were— Franklin: Did you do the cover of this? Was this part of your group, or--? Brunson: Yes, yes. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. So kind of describe if you can remember, kind of the thought that went in—this is a very kind of futuristic-looking, digital—but with this kind of realistic photo dropped on it. So kind of maybe describe the kind of the thought process behind this cover. Brunson: Well, it—I didn’t personally draw this—or lay this out. David Beckley, I think, was the illustrator that did, and he was very, very talented. This was in celebration of the first three years of FFTF in operation. It was kind of a bragging tool, if you will. It had—there was—one, it was expensive to do. Back in those days, it was expensive to do something like this. And it borderline pushed the edge for what was legal to do, as far as colors and all of that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: But internally—this, of course is an aerial view of the FFTF Reactor that we put in there. Same illustration. And basically, went through and set all sorts of—oh-ho, there’s an illustration that I did. Well, not only did I do it, but nearly every other person that worked on the FFTF project had some dealings with this, because it changed so many times. But this is an illustration that I did. There was another illustrator who did this little section, this building here, Ron Wick, who retired recently from Supply System. He helped with that, and I did everything else. We submitted it, and it won an international award. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: But it was—this was just basically a recap of the construction milestones and the various activities as they were being—these major components as they were being installed. So it was a classic—this brochure won an award as well. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: For that time. Franklin: Yeah, it’s very visually appealing with its photos. Was the cover—was that done with—was that a—did computers create this cover, or was this kind of analog reproduction of kind of a digital—I guess that’s— Brunson: Yeah, it looks digital, doesn’t it? Franklin: Yeah, it looks kind of very Tron. Brunson: This is probably the third or fourth version, and I think those kind of things evolved. This was a good product. We were all proud to be part of that association. Franklin: Okay. So the next one is another one that we mentioned. We’ll see how we can get this to stay. Might have to come and—oh! All right. Wow. Brunson: Well, that’s pretty well— Franklin: Yeah. It might make it there for a minute. Actually, I’ll probably-- Brunson: We could probably—well that—I think that shows it pretty well. Franklin: Yeah, it sure does. So why don’t we talk about that—so this is the illustration that you said won an award. Brunson: Yeah, it did. And it was done—this was drawn and, of course, like I said, we did so many variations of this drawing. It was inked and this part here, the building itself, was a film positive. It was a giant, clear film with black lines on it. And then we painted on the back of it with acrylic. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: And it was kind of what Disney’s cartoons did. That’s where we kind of developed this thinking of that aspect. It made life a lot easier. It was so much faster than airbrush. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: So this is kind of a step up from airbrush. This was 32 inches wide by 40 inches long. It’s actually out of that proportion. This is an illustration of this core that was also 40 inches long. Franklin: Oh, wow. Brunson: And these were 40 inches long. And we did all of these illustrations, time and time again. The background here was done with opaque watercolor. And then this unit was laid on top of that. That’s how it was done. It was—at that time, that was kind of the state of the art. Franklin: Right. Sounds like there’s a lot of different techniques that go into this, different processes. Brunson: And this was all done with sponge. I mean this part down here was just a sea sponge and various colors of dark and light paint. Franklin: Oh, wow. Brunson: And the sky—the actual original, the sky was a little nicer than it is here. But that’s, of course—that’s kind of the setting. So this was in Nuclear Engineering as their centerfold of the year— Franklin: I’ll show that cover real quick. Brunson: --for International Nuclear Engineering. Franklin: Oh, that means you’re top billing right there, the FFTF Foldout. Brunson: Yeah. I was always proud of that. We all were. Rice: That’s a hand-painted title? Franklin: So this is a hand-painted title here? Brunson: Yeah, this is a paintbrush. Red sable brush. You just hand-lettered to make sure that you’ve got it. You lay it out on a piece of paper so you know exactly the center of it and where it’s going to be, and then go in with a light pencil and pencil it in so you had your spelling correct. Because it’s pretty—I’ve even misspelled my name a few times, when you’re concentrating on doing it. So that’s just me. So it was laid out in pencil and then you just hold your breath and start painting, after you’ve scribbled on a piece of scrap for a while to get the feel. If you didn’t do that every day, it was kind of pot luck. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And down here, again, these were done with the bug. Franklin: The stylus? Brunson: Yeah, with the stylus. Rice: So why were some of the titles hand-painted? Brunson: Well, one, they were large. Rice: Mm-hmm. Brunson: You know, some of them were this tall on these illustrations. There wasn’t really any other way, at that time—that we had—that you could create that. Rice: Mm. Brunson: So that was just part of the timeframe. Franklin: That one’s great. Rice: That’s awesome. Franklin: So let’s do—talk a little bit about this. Brunson: Yeah, this was interesting. This—Hank Krueger was one of our cartoonists for years out there. Had a very distinct style and a personality that was—it was great. He was really a character. The Hanford News was, like it says, serving the Hanford family. It came out once a week, and it had all sorts of information in it regarding the state of Hanford. This was a Christmas—it was actually security—it was a security statement about where’s your badge? Franklin: Yeah! Brunson: I’ve kept this for years and years. I’ve shown it a lot. So it always tickles me to see it. Because everything about it has something to do with safety. And that’s how you could justify doing something like that. Franklin: Mm-hm. Brunson: Because an illustration like this doesn’t happen overnight. It took a little—it costs a little to do that. But the Hanford News, for years, the whole back page of it was ads. It was kind of like the free ads that are in the Tri-City Herald today, you know. So there was always a lot of interest in buying a boat or duck decoys or an end table or something. Consequently, it kind of distracted from the work being done on Fridays. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Brunson: So they normally wouldn’t produce—they wouldn’t hand it out until quitting time on Fridays. Franklin: Oh, okay, right, yeah, that makes good sense. So here we go. This might be a little small, but here we have some of the ads here. Right, so cars for sale, wanted. And these were all for—did it cost to, or were these all free ads? Brunson: These were all free ads. Franklin: Oh, okay. Brunson: But you had to be on site. You know, for sale, and wanted, and trade, and free, and commuter pools. So it was a great service. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And all the contractors got it. So it was a great deal. Franklin: Right, yeah, I can imagine that this would have been important. Brunson: But that was part of what we did as well in the graphics department. Rice: [INAUDIBLE] the next one? Franklin: So, here we go. So this photo has you in it right? Brunson: Yeah, that’s me. Franklin: Over on the, second from the left? Brunson: Yeah, I’m the non-president male. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, this is a picture of the president of Westinghouse Hanford Company. His name was Al Squires. This is the team that we finally pulled together after years of actually working on it, the Final Safety Analysis Report. FSAR. It was a major, major activity regarding the safety of the operation of FFTF. Franklin: Wow. Brunson: It was a big job and a lot of people supported it. We had a special activity where they thanked us and gave us cake or something. [LAUGHTER] This was the team that was in charge of the management of it. Franklin: So—this one? Rice: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Yeah. This is kind of different. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: And all of these—all of the things we’ve scanned—all of the items Dennis brought, and then others we’ll make available with the interview on our website. So why don’t you tell us a bit about—this seems a little bit different from— Brunson: Well, there was a time when the PRTR Reactor building in the 300 Area, it was the Plutonium Research Test Reactor. It was a little domed building in the southeast part of the 300 Area. They decided this would be a great place to do work on the Star Wars activities. They were actively pursuing this when we got a new President, and it all went down with one big flush. But during that timeframe, we had a lot of illustrators that got to do some neat drawings about potential activities in space. So it was indeed a Hanford— Franklin: Project? Brunson: Project. Franklin: So the new President you’re talking about, would that have been—so it was George HW? Brunson: No, it was before that. It was back in the Carter days and times like that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Okay, so this predated the Star Wars—Reagan’s STI. Okay, but this was some of the-- Brunson: Yeah. We got excited about it for a while, but we just—it didn’t pan out. So that’s— Franklin: That’s pretty exciting. Rice: Yeah. Franklin: Pretty exciting picture. So this here—let me— Brunson: I don’t know if you can see that—no, that’s-- Franklin: Summary Description of the Fast Flux— Brunson: This is called a HEDL-400. HEDL was Hanford Engineering Development Laboratory. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: We were basically in charge of the Fast Flux Test Facility. Franklin: Does 400 correspond to the area? Brunson: It is—well, I assumed that it did. It was the 400 Area. But inside, that’s—this is the—that’s the negative for that FFTF—the big one— Franklin: Oh, okay! Rice: Cool! Brunson: And they handed this to me in celebration. That was in 1981, when this was produced. Pat Cabell was the editor-in-chief, and I was sort of his whipping boy. Doing illustrations for all of the—and putting the book together. Are you able to see that? A lot of the illustrations in here, I did a lot of these illustrations. And a lot of us in the groups did them. But this is the interim decay storage facility that you have an illustration for over here. Franklin: Right. That’s right here, yeah. Brunson: This was the black-and-white version of that. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: That illustration that you have was done with the film positive and we painted on the back of it. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: I put a six-foot-tall cowboy down here in the corner to show scale. Franklin: That’s how large this is. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, great. Brunson: So this basically is the bible of FFTF, as far as how it’s constructed and how it was finalized. It’s kind of an as-built. Franklin: Okay. Oh, great. Do you have the Ron Kathren— Rice: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. That might be a good one to—I don’t know if we want to go through every single one. Brunson: No, that wasn’t my intent. Franklin: No, but we will make all of those available. Rice: Did he go into detail about how that whole thing was produced? Franklin: This one? I believe so. Brunson: Yeah, pretty much. Franklin: The airbrush and the— Rice: I didn’t quite catch that. I know the other ones— Franklin: So, how do you—Husco--? Brunson: Huscoubea. Franklin: So this is kind of Tri-Cities history, and-- Brunson: Yup! Franklin: WSU Tri-Cities, but also Hanford, in the way of the Joint Center for Graduate—so why don’t you talk a bit about the Huscoubea and your contribution to— Brunson: Yeah, this was—there was a fellow who—his name was Trent—who worked at WSU. Frank Trent was his name. He was a maintenance guy, and he was an artist. He was asked to come up with a critter that was part husky, part cougar and part beaver. They were initially going to use it for the first graduation—the diploma—as kind of a logo. And he struggled with it, and then he came to me and said, hey, can you help me? So I came up with a black-and-white version and they liked it. So he then came back later and they had me do an oil painting of it. So this is part of an oil painting that’s a little bit larger—I mean, shows the river bank, and the river in the distance and all of that. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Brunson: And it hung here at the college for years, and I think somewhere it’s still hanging. I hope. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And so here’s another. Brunson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: We’ll have to come up here—and so—a little more. This is Professor Emeritus Ron Kathren who’s been interviewed by us, and Herbert Parker Foundation, long-time health physics professional and proud Coug, holding the oil painting of the Huscoubea on our 20th celebration, which I think would have been in 2008 or 2009. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: So this was the final painting, then. Brunson: That’s the painting. Franklin: --that was done. Brunson: It hung in this building upstairs, as you came in. For years and years it was there. Yeah. I used to come out here for art classes at night and on the weekends. It was—it always hung there and I was always so proud of it. It was an unusual illustration. Franklin: Yeah. It’s probably maybe the most unusual college mascot-- Brunson: [LAUGHTER] Rice: Yeah. Franklin: --I’ve ever seen. Brunson: It didn’t last for long. Franklin: Okay, so this will be our last one here. Both of them? Rice: Well, the hand drawing probably. Franklin: Okay. Rice: I don’t know if it will show up, though. Oh, okay. Franklin: It looks like it will. So this obviously isn’t a final, right? Brunson: No, that’s considered a rough. Franklin: Okay. Brunson: That was—we did an ongoing—that was a main—a big part of our activity at Hanford in the graphics department was safety and security. Franklin: Right. Brunson: And it kept a lot of people employed, because they’re always wanting something new to—it was very—they were real serious about safety and security, which is great. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, when you’re dealing with nuclear reactors. Brunson: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And the Hanford safety record is very well-documented. Okay, well that’s great. And—that, yeah. So, Dennis, thank you so much for coming. Brunson: Well— Franklin: And sharing your story and walking us through the process. Brunson: This was fun. Franklin: Oh, great. Well, thank you. Brunson: I could probably keep this up for a couple hours! [LAUGHTER] If you didn’t have something important to do. <a href="https://youtu.be/pXttl755HyE">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area T Canyon B Canyon FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 300 Area Hanford Science Center 400 Area PRTR (Plutonium Reclamation Test Reactor) HEDL (Hanford Engineering Development Laboratory) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1964- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1964-2008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Brunson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Technical illustration Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Dennis Brunson moved to Richland, Washington in 1964. Dennis worked on the Hanford Site from 1964- 2008. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/12">Oral History Metadata</a> https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe786d47cb35f6abee57ecf8c746829b9.jpg ba4dc2a21c993177209ae2be3fe35420 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8875c5e772cb29aebfce02322ff3c758.mp4 290ff8c90f6a2a337118c4feff3f7d56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Diane Aungst Description An account of the resource An interview with Diane Aungst conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7650e6d1fa8429d026db5e62d31f726b.jpg 339ba7257a11e3e03a5c79ca2465207d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0b6396cce1f99bfc3337e41454a1291c.mp4 cbf5dd6b74ffbc33a51db1e8105690ae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diane Aungst Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Diane Aungst Description An account of the resource An interview with Diane Aungst conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2ef98f841615da0c95bd236509f3be0a.jpg c027cf4d6ac547aa7a70199207bd8864 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F88a6918187bf5609936480b5be0b837c.mp4 2245074063970b1c41729a69fc2e7eca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dick Wiehl Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Northwest Public Television | Wiehl_Dick </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Robert Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Dick Wiehl on June 25 of 2013, and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking to Mr. Wiehl about his family's history, particularly their history in White Bluffs and the area around there. So I'm going to start with maybe talking about your family first, asking about them. Do you know how and when they came to the White Bluffs area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Dick Wiehl: Well, my grandfather--that's who we're talking about--came in the late 1890s, and it was as a result of advertisement, which was nationwide, I suppose, at the time to get people out here to populate the area. And he came out with the prospect of buying some acreage, which he did, and upon which they established a ranch. And that would have been in the very latest part of the 1890s. Bauman: And do you know where he came from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Minnesota. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did he come by himself? Wiehl: He came with his father, initially. Then his father went back and lived the rest of his life back in Minnesota. He had a good position back there, but this was an opportunity for a young man to strike out on his own and see if the road was, indeed, paved with gold in the West. And that's how the land was sold. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. Do you know much about your mother's family? I'm sorry, your grandmother's family, the Craig family, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, and she was Hattie Wright from the Craig family. And she came from Ellensburg, so she was out here even before my grandfather. And how they met, I don't know. But I do know that they were married about 1900, and then moved on together and onto the ranch that my grandfather was then establishing on the banks of the Columbia River. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So could you describe the ranch? I know you didn't really live there, but you spent some summers there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I was born in 1936, and they were out of there in 1943. So those were the years that--obviously, I don't remember much from 1936. But from about 1940 on, I do. I have vivid memories and stories that were told. And so that's really where my relationship started was about that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Can you describe the ranch? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: It was, in my perspective, it was huge. [LAUGHTER] And it was. There were thousands of acres that were leased, and the ranch, kind of the official ranch itself, was several hundred acres. And, of course, to a child at that time, I'd go with my grandfather, and we'd go horseback riding, and he would be checking on various operations on the ranch on a day-to-day basis, and we'd go all day. [LAUGHTER] And have lunch somewhere in saddle bags, and then come back by evening. And we'd be gone from 7 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the evening, just riding on the ranch. Never left it. So it was a big ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So what sort of crops did your grandfather grow? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, the crops I remember specifically, because I was out there picking potato bugs, were the potatoes. And so they grew potatoes. They had gardens. They were completely self-sufficient. And I remember my grandmother out there working in a large garden, and the other vegetables that they had I wouldn't recall. But there were lots of them, and the potatoes were where I would come in. And they had cattle, a lot of cattle, which were on the rangeland that they had leased. They had goats. They had chickens. And just had horses, obviously horses. Just about every animal that you would need in an operating ranch. And some of the animals were work animals, and some of them were riding, some of the horses were riding horses. And they had a lot of them. And just the care and maintenance of those animals was a full-time job, which was generally done by the women--meaning my grandmother, or the younger kids when they were there, or then eventually my aunt, who was a teenager when they had to move out of there in 1943. Just took care of the chickens and things like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Now did you have siblings or cousins who would spend the summer there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. I had a younger sister, but she was too young to be involved in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And now the cattle, did they sell any of the cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. They were involved in the cattle markets, and I can remember the wailing and moaning over the, this is a Republican cattle market, or this is a Democratic cattle market. [LAUGHTER] Whether things were up or down, that's the way they would talk about it. And they could always blame somebody for the fact that the market was down. So that was important to them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any idea where they sold the cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So what other buildings were there besides the ranch house itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: The main ranch house, and then there were a cold room, a big refrigerator, actually, which was an ice room. Several buildings, which were-- The house fronted on a lane. The lane was the highway that actually ran through from Othello and Moses Lake to the Columbia River, where you'd catch it to go over to White Bluffs, which was immediately across the river. And so their front yard was immediately contiguous to that road. Across the road were several buildings. I don't recall how many, but several for machinery. Barns, lean-tos, rather ramshackle but utilitarian structures for the housing machinery. And then they had chicken coops, and they raised goats, and they had goat houses, and so they had a lot of outlying buildings, which were particularized for a certain function on the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And when you spent summers there, was there, for instance, electricity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. There was a telephone, and that was- When I was originally there, there wasn't electricity. In fact, I don't know if there ever was electricity. I think that it was coming, and it may have been there in the latter years, but that was relatively new, if there at all. The telephone, I do remember, because that was exciting when anybody on the line got a call, because everybody was included in it. [LAUGHTER] You'd dial an operator, a central operator that was in White Bluffs. I'm sure that must've been where she was. And she was on a first name basis with everybody. It was one ring here and two rings there, and so the telephone was quite an active source of getting the word out in the small community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So how’d that work? So if the phone rang in the house-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: It’d be two rings; that meant it was your phone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: If it was more than that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Or less, it was somebody else's phone. It didn't make any difference. Everybody went over and got it. [LAUGHTER] And sometimes they’d even join into the conversation when they weren't supposed to be even on the line. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Not a whole lot of privacy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And then what about irrigation? You must have had some sort of irrigation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: They had irrigation. I can remember wandering through the fields with my grandfather as he--There was blockages that occurred from time to time in the ditches that were coming out from the-- there were outlets for the water. And they had a good irrigation system. They must have taken the water right out of the Columbia, pumped it up there, and distributed it, because the ranch was on a level, probably two or three feet above the Columbia River. So it wouldn't have been difficult to do. Lots of pipe. I remember he had a shipment of pipe come in one time when I was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: What kind of pipe? Like cement? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. It was, and it was very, very heavy. It'd last forever, I thought, not realizing that the government was going to probably dig it all up in a couple of years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. And then what about the house itself? Do you remember how large it was, how many bedrooms, or anything like that? Wiehl: It had two bedrooms, a master bedroom and a kid’s bedroom, because when I was there, my aunt was still—she was just a couple years older than I. And so she had her bedroom, and my grandparents had their bedroom, and then there was a large sleeping porch on one end of the house, where since I was there in the summertime, I would sleep with my grandfather on this sleeping porch. And there were a room for a couple of other people to sleep out there too if we had guests or something like that. And then there was a huge room in the center of the house, where they had community gatherings. I mean, it was that big. So that if the local farmers wanted to get together for a meeting of some kind followed by snacks or even a dance, they would always have it in that what Grandpa called the great hall. And it was large by my estimation. And then they had the other big room in the center of the house was the kitchen and dining area. And those are the rooms I remember. I'm sure there probably were other rooms that I was never even shown to. But those are the rooms I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So it was a place where people came. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yes, oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very definitely. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. And at the time you were there, it was a larger house that had that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. They kept adding on until--I think it probably took its final shape in about 1920. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. Now, you mentioned your aunt. I wonder if you could just for clarification, state the children, or I guess in your father's generation, who-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, all right. Their dad was born in 1909. Wright, the oldest, was born in 1903. And Elroy, the youngest boy, was, I would say, 1920. And my aunt was 1933. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Quite a range. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. About 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. For that time, it was quite a range. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And you were born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: In 1936. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: 1936. In Yakima? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: In Yakima, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And so your family was in Yakima-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: But you would spend summers-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes, I couldn't wait for the summers. I had to get over there and spend time with—Well, I was the baby at that point, and so I loved that. And loved to get over there and play with his tractors. And that's what I would do. He had several tractors. The one that I liked was a very nice John Deere big green tractor. But it was a small tractor for those times. And so I could actually sit on the seat, and by the time I was six, I could reach the pedals. Now to guard against anything ever happening, the battery was always taken out when I came over there, so nothing would go awry. [LAUGHTER] One time I came over though, and I think it was either in '41 or '42, because I had to be at least that old. We pulled down into the driveway, and I jumped out of the car and ran over to the tractor, which was sitting out on the road. I mean, this was the highway that it was sitting out on, which, as I explained earlier, just kind of ran right through the property. And I didn't know it, but the tractor had been used that morning, and my grandpa didn't know exactly when we were coming. In any event, he didn't take the battery out of the tractor. So I jumped on and did what I'd always hoped I could do: drive the tractor. It started, and everybody was standing back completely amazed and shocked and dazed, because I roared down the street. [LAUGHTER] And Dad was running after me and Grandfather on the other side. And I basically said, it's under control. Went down about 100 yards, turned around, brought the tractor back, and stopped it. And Grandpa said, well, I guess we don't have to take the battery out anymore. [LAUGHTER] But thinking of that, what really kind of alarmed me was the fact that I was driving the tractor and having things under perfect control, I thought. But I was a little concerned about my dad running alongside on one side and my grandfather on the other. I didn't think they could hold up a lot longer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That's a great memory. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. Bauman: So when you were there in the summers, you picked a lot of potato bugs, and you would ride out with your grandfather? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Right. And just a lot of times sometimes play with my aunt. We would go exploring, and the property was vast, and there was always something, a place to go, an island to visit, and so we would just do what kids do, and swim in the Columbia River, and she raised a lot of little chickens. And so we would go out and count the chickens and make sure they were fed and play with them. They were very cute little things. And games. I mean, it was a time when kids would play board games. And so we got pretty good at a couple of those. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And you mentioned it was right on sort of the main road. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Right. It went right through the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So were there a lot of people driving through? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: From time to time. Nothing like today. But no, there would be two or three cars that I would see a day going in both directions. And I don't even know whether they had a ferry schedule, but I know that my grandfather would go down there at a certain time, which was a horse ride, it would have probably been about a three-minute horse ride down to where the ferry was. And so he was committed to be there at certain hours. So from that, I assume there must've been some sort of schedule, but he wasn't there on call. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So he would, was operating the ferry, take the ferry-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Back and forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Back and forth to the car on the other side. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. And the whole procedure wouldn't take very long after he got the ferry started up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So was he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And I went down with him a lot of times. And that was a big thrill, because he would, if they were old diesel, it was an old diesel engine, and he would get that. It seemed like it took forever to get that fired up, but when it was, it would go clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk, and then we would go, de-clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk across the load one place or the other. I don't remember, but it was back and forth. And if there were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: How long did it take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, the ferry ride itself, maybe five minutes. The river was pretty big, but still, you made steady progress. I wouldn't say it was very long. But exciting. And you certainly needed the ferry, because there were no bridges in the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you know how long your grandfather had been operating the ferry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, I think he ran that for, well, 20 years anyhow. Yeah, because he ran it right up until 1943, and certainly, from '23. That would have been 20 years. That much and probably more. Probably more. Probably back to maybe 13. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: That was probably operating up to 1943. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. Right up to the time they left, and he took the keys with him. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So did you-- your grandparents' ranch was on one side of the Columbia from White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm, was just across the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Across the river. Did you go over there fairly often? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And what sorts of things did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I would be there when Grandpa would take the ferry over, and he'd maybe wait for 10 or 15 minutes or maybe sometimes longer. And if he had business-- he was in charge, so he could pretty well decide when the ferry went back. And the ferry dock was right at the edge of town, and so I'd just walk up. There was a little landing. I'd walk up, and I'd be right in the center of town. The center of town-- we're not talking a big town here. But there were stores there, and I was just-- I'd go in and look around. And maybe sometimes I'd have a nickel or something like that, and I could buy something, generally sweet. And that would be a big, big deal. I picked a lot of potato bugs for a nickel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Do you remember the names of any of the stores? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no. I remember a hardware store, though, that, in particular, that was just awesome, because it had things all over the walls, and it always sort of looked like a toy store as far as I was concerned. But it was clearly a hardware store. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that at your grandparents' ranch, they often had sort of social events there. Do you remember any community or social events in White Bluffs, the town itself for like 4th of July or anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. No, I don't. I don't remember anything like that. I do remember that my grandparents themselves had a couple of 4th of July-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: --picnics or summer picnics. I don't know whether they were specifically 4th of July, when they would have friends and relatives in to share a lunch. And I can remember picnic tables being set out underneath the trees, and a lot of people being there. Everybody having a good time, and I remember that a couple of times. They were very sociable people. And of course, that was one way that people could get together with their neighbors and discuss the issues of the day, which were generally how to get better, get more income. And all the people in that area were really pioneers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. Before we started talking, you showed me a photo of your grandfather in a baseball uniform. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm. A White Bluffs baseball team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. I don’t know, did your grandfather talk about that often? Do you remember your grandfather talking about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I have no memories personally of it, except that my father talked about the White Bluffs baseball team and was very proud of this picture of his father in uniform of the White Bluffs baseball team. Which was probably circa 1900 at that point. So clearly that baseball was very much a part of civilized life in the Hanford, Richland White Bluffs area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did you have any interactions with Native Americans in the area at all yourself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I would see them. I myself had no interactions at that time. Later, I got to go onto the Priest Rapids reservation and was invited to one of the last-- oh, they have a name for it-- kind of a big celebration potluck that they had before they built the dam. But no, I didn't. I would see them, but I never had any contact. And the other thing, I wasn't afraid of them or anything like that. It was just that they weren't on my agenda for the day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: How about neighbors? Were there-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: There were virtually no neighbors. The ranch was it. My grandparents knew where their neighbors were, but they had to be a long way away. But they could ride and did ride over to wherever they were. I never saw a neighbor's ranch on our side of the river. So it must've been quite a distance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right, right. And you mentioned you spent a lot of time playing with your aunt. Were there other children? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. No, there were no neighbors. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So you spent summers there up until 1943. So you and your family were living in Yakima when the government decided to build the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Short notice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Short notice, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very short notice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any memories of that, or stories that your parents have told you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. I have a memory, because I wasn't going there that summer. [LAUGHTER] And it was crisis time, because I'm guessing to a certain extent, but I won't be far off, that they were notified by telephone first and with a letter following. And they had something like 15 to 30 days--very short--in which that they had to get out. And this was the late winter of 1942 or the early part of 1943. Getting out is one thing, but where are you going to go? And so all heck broke loose. I mean, we've got to get out. Where are we going to go? And so the search was undertaken of where, because Grandpa was a rancher. He had all these cattle, horses. And so they eventually found a place near Selah, a ranch near Selah, which they bought. And they moved some of the livestock, which they did take with them. And he started anew in Selah and ran a dairy for probably about seven or eight years until after the war. When at that point, they had to move out. But they didn't have to accept the amount of money that the government gave them, and this was an important point. Some did, but those that didn't still had to move out. But after the war, they could take the government to court and prove that they did not get fair value for their land. And my grandparents did that. Of course, they had their own house attorney, my father. And they got probably in 1946 or 1947 fair value for the acreage that the government had taken. And with that, they then sold the ranch in Selah and bought a huge ranch up by Cle Elum in the Teanaway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And moved there. Moved there, and lived-- Grandpa lived a short but happy life in that area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any idea what the fair value was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. But it was substantially more than the government gave. The government wasn't interested in carving up nickels and dimes and half dollars. They wanted the land quickly. They got that, and then they would settle up accounts later. And it was a painful process if you were one of the people that got kicked off your land, but that's the way it worked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. I was wondering, do you remember or heard any stories or heard your grandpa or parents ever talking about their feelings about that, having had started this homestead and having been there for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I think they looked at it-- yes, I remember. And in particular, my uncle Elroy, who was pictured in some of those pictures that we were reviewing. He graduated from the University of Washington in 1941. And at that time, he was an ROTC cadet at the Reserve Officers Training program. He had been in that, and so he was going in to the Army in that summer. Well, that's perfect timing [LAUGHTER] for seeing a lot of action during the Second World War. And so he was an officer throughout the war, and, of course, was nowhere around in 1943. He was training for the invasion of Europe at that point in Fort Benning, Georgia, if I recall. And he never saw his--he left as a soldier, and at the end of the war, he couldn't go home. [LAUGHTER] I mean, his life had been uprooted. And that's just his personal case. And he was very matter of fact about it, but talked about it. It hurt him. But so what, really? I mean, we had to win the war. And I think that was the way my grandparents-- I never-- they wanted a fair price, because the government could do that, but they never argued or never felt badly about contributing to the quicker end of the war by the building of the atomic bomb. They felt pretty good about it, I think, that they had made a contribution. But then that doesn't entitle the government to steal it either. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure, right. Let's talk a little bit more then about some of your family members. So you said your uncle Elroy was at University of Washington. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Your father had already gone there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. He was a prosecuting attorney in Yakima at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And so you and your family were living there. And then your other uncle, Wright? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, he was the number one son, so he stayed with the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And so when they were kicked out of there in 1943, Wright went right along with my grandfather, went to Selah, and they bought a house for him right next door to or across the lane from where my grandparents were. And then when they went up to the Teanaway to Cle Elum, he went right along with them, and he was the foreman of everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And then your aunt, obviously, would have been still young, so she-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, she graduated in late, 1950 or something like that from high school and married a man from Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Are there any memories that stand out to you in terms of your times, your summers there that either are something humorous or just something that stands out particularly that we haven’t talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I had a-- well, I've told you that they had chickens. And so we ate a lot of chicken, and we had a lot of eggs. And my grandmother was very careful in selecting-- we weren't going to eat a good layer. And so if the chicken was really performing out there with the eggs, then that chicken was safe for as long as that happened. [LAUGHTER] And of course, the chickens had to be killed. Well, a lot of times, there was a chopping block out behind the house, and most of the time, my grandmother would go out there and chop the head off. And that was an awesome sight for a little kid, because she would chop the chicken's head off and plop the chicken down. The chicken would run around for a minute or so, until it finally flopped over, and then we had to pull the feathers and get the chicken ready to be put into a pot. Well, handy as my grandfather was, at one point, he went out there to do this trick--chopping the head off—and he took his thumb along with the chicken head. And so he picked his thumb up, and he was way ahead of his time on that, and cauterized the wound, and then drove all the way to Yakima, which was the closest major hospital where he could get aid. And that was a long drive in an old pickup, or new at that time. It was an awesome feat. And he got there, and they said, no, we can't reattach the thumb. Which today they probably could do. Later that year, I had a friend in Yakima, and Grandpa would come up and visit us every once in a while. I had a friend, basically the same age, say, probably seven or eight, who sucked his thumb constantly. Little Ronnie, and he was always sucking his thumb. And Grandfather came out one day. We were playing out near the driveway where the car was. And Ronnie was sucking his thumb, and Grandpa says, you got to be careful about that, kid. You got to be careful. You shouldn't do that. And he says, I did, and look what happened, and he put up his hand, and there was no thumb, just a-- Ronnie took his thumb out of his mouth, and I don't think he ever popped it back in again. That was it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: That solved the problem. [LAUGHTER] So that was a-- I was startled myself. [LAUGHTER] And that's one of the things that happened there that was kind of funny. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. How would you, from your memories, describe your grandparents? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very loyal, to start with, and very much involved in one another's lives, because they were in this together. A great feeling being around them. A great feeling. They were involved in everything together, and Grandmother was--Grandpa was smart. Grandmother was just as smart, and the two of them had physical constitutions. We had to be made of steel to live in there, and they were, emotionally and physically. That's a rare thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. Yeah. Like to do what they did at the time they did is, owning that ranch and so forth, yeah. Did you see any other extended family much at all, either on your grandmother's side or your grandfather's die? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, the extended-- Wright was there, the oldest brother, because he was the chief hand. And he would be involved everyday on what needed to be done on the ranch. And one of the reasons my grandpa could slip away and run the ferry, because Wright was tending the ranch. He had a wife that lived there on the premises in another house. So that adds to the houses, which I forgot about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: But they were always close at hand. And then he had a daughter. Wright had a daughter. He had a wife and a daughter, and the daughter then married, and her husband came on as a hand, too. So they had four or five other people that were in the mix all the time, all relatives. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: What was their last name, Wright's daughters and husbands? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Bobbi was her name, and I can't remember. Gaige. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Gaige, okay. I'm going to then go back and talk about your grandfather a little bit more. When we were talking earlier, I mentioned looking at census records. In 1940, he was the numerator of the census. I know he was very active in the community in addition to just being very busy with the ranch. Were there other positions, community positions that he held? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, he was the deputy sheriff in both counties, and that was important that it be in both counties, because you never knew which way the crooks were going to come, you see. [LAUGHTER] And he had a jail on either side of the river. And he had a photographic memory, which was the reason that he kept active those two jails, because they were all the wanted posters would come to him. They would go up on a bulletin board in the ferry boat or on the ferry boat. So if people were on the ferry, and there was nowhere to go. I mean, once you were on the ferry, you were stuck. You were like in a jail right then and there. If you were so unlucky as to be identified on the ferry, you would be escorted off at the other end to a local jail. And Grandpa picked up a lot of-- I don't know a lot, but enough to talk about-- of people going back and forth over the river there. So he was very much involved in that process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Were there ever any stories? Did he tell you any stories about any particular-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I remember, this had nothing to do with the wanted posters, but it had to do with the jails. Since he was a deputy sheriff in both counties, occasionally, there might be a law enforcement issue. And generally, that involved people going across to White Bluffs, cowboys after a roundup, and having too much alcohol. Then the alcohol would take control of the situation. They'd get noisy, boisterous, maybe unruly, and when they got past the noisy area and into the unruly, then they would call for Grandpa. And that happened a couple of times, and one time, specifically, he went down there, and he would deputize people right on the spot. And they would take the drunken cowboys and throw them into the jail. Well, the one time they did that, two or three of them were thrown into jail, locked up, and Grandpa basically said, well, we'll see you in the morning and let you out then. Well, when he got there in the morning, the jail was gone. Somebody-- his friends, these cowboy friends-- the jail wasn't very big-- they had lassoed the jail, pulled it off its little foundation that it was on, taken it 100 yards down the river and broken them out. [LAUGHTER] And he said, much to their credit, they came back sheepishly a few days later, helped move the jail back to where it was supposed to be, and repaired it so it was as good as new. [LAUGHTER] So the story had a happy ending, but I mean, that was kind of the justice of the old West, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. So was this jail in the town of White Bluffs itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Just on the edge. Closer to the river. He had it on both sides of the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And then on the Franklin County side, was it right on the river too? Close to it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. Both sides were very-- more like a little outhouse. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Which was susceptible to lassoing and moving, apparently. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah, right. It's that small. I think I know you were just there in the summers, so you didn't attend school-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: --in White Bluffs. Churches-- do you remember churches? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did your grandparents go to church over there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no, there probably was one. I'm sure there was one in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: But you don’t have any memories-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: But I have no memory of going there, and I doubt if my grandparents did. They were probably still involved in the workday affairs of the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. And then I guess, any other memories that you have-- you told some great stories. [LAUGHTER] Is there anything else that you remember from your summers there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, not specifically. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And I guess the other question would be, obviously, the town of White Bluffs then in 1943 essentially ceased to exist. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, it did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: That community. Why do you think it's important for us to remember the town, for future generations maybe to know about White Bluffs and the things that people like your grandparents did there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, right now, it's forgotten. And that doesn't seem to be fair. A town should, once started, should live out its natural life. And this did not happen with White Bluffs. Its natural life was truncated suddenly by Presidential decree. And I think that an effort should be made to still let White Bluffs live out its natural life, and making a history of it may help. It may also help bring closure to a lot of the people that are now content that their story has been told. Here, living in Yakima, we tell our own story. We're there to tell our own story. But the people here didn't have that opportunity. So I think it's important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: All right, well, thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming here and doing the interview-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: My pleasure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: --and telling the stories. They were terrific. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Get myself unhooked there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: I'll help you out. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:45:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 235 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Wright, Hattie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dick Wiehl Description An account of the resource An interview with Dick Wiehl conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-29: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Horseback riding swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb783427493c5c68449d906f688784556.jpg 8cbfd9bca8f00f4b3513930894ac2938 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F365bcfcd8a4bdce38fcb5f3289c01ee2.mp4 d84121935fbf3d14aa14e0f4ec7e8c40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dillard Shippler Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dillard Shippler Description An account of the resource An interview with Dillard Shippler conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3a2b5f7ec27956c1226d34a3d8ec2791.jpg 8a9c4ac345fed2216eec9ad2bd5ab99a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6fea084811862488e4e8cc81a09c98a1.mp4 9e0a947bd9a2c175e5f8ec125edca10a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Don Bihl Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Don Bihl Description An account of the resource An interview with Don Bihl conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6b4db4212c37a7652631b305e2cbff9a.jpg 0651c8b24a396c46ba1ed5ace42bbf05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donald Baker Location The location of the interview Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Don Baker on April 5, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Don about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Don Baker: My name is Donald E. Baker. It’s spelled D-O-N-A-L-D, initial E., last name B-A-K-E-R. Franklin: Great. And do you prefer to go by—I should’ve asked you before—Don or Donald? Baker: Don is fine. Franklin: Okay. Baker: Either one, I’ll respond. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. So, Don, tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site. Baker: Well, I had heard very little bit about Hanford. But early in the school year, June of—well, it was probably March or April of 1951, an interviewer from Hanford came to the University of Idaho. And I was a graduate student there at the time. I was interviewed for work over here, and then eventually ended up hiring on. I reported for work in Richland on early June of 1951. Franklin: What was your graduate degree in? Baker: My graduate degree was in chemistry. I was part of a group of probably over 200 recent graduates that came in that year, hired on with General Electric. General Electric was the contractor at that time that was in charge of the entire Hanford Project. Franklin: Wow. Okay. Did you have any idea—did you interview for a specific job at Hanford, or--? Baker: No, I didn’t. At that time, really, there was not a lot known to the general public, because it still was a very classified operation that they were running here. So, I just assumed that with my background in chemistry that I would find some interesting work here. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Baker: And I certainly did. Franklin: Yeah. Did you have any other job offers, or had you interviewed in any other places before you--? Baker: No, I really was interested in knowing more about this. This would probably have been my first preference, and definitely after I knew more about it, I knew that I had made a good choice. But the conditions here were, shall we say, a little rustic at that time as far as living conditions. When I reported here, I was offered living accommodations in a barracks-type dormitory building in north Richland. I was there for approximately, oh, maybe two or three weeks. During that time, we were given orientation, lectures and so on. And at the end of that two or three weeks’ time, I was offered to do some work in off-site inspection. Now, offsite inspection was a group of engineers that were following contracts where equipment was being built for Hanford. Quite a ways away from chemistry, but nevertheless, it sounded like an interesting opportunity for me, because it could give me an opportunity to see just what the real world was like, as far as how equipment was fabricated. So, after being here for only about three weeks, I packed my bags and was off to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to a plant that was fabricating approximately one-cubic-foot containers for some work here at Hanford. This was in a foundry-type place where heavy vessels were fabricated. This particular company was known for their huge beer processing vessels that the tanks were made for making beer that were glass-lined. They were made out of carbon steel, and then they would go into a huge furnace where a glaze was put on the inside of the tanks. That was quite a ways away from the type of work that Hanford was requiring them to do. They were making approximately a one-cubic-foot vessel to extremely tight specifications that the people found hard to believe or understand when they first started the job. It was a stainless steel tank that had an off-center pipe in it. It was made to very tight specifications, dimensionally to within one-thousandth to three-thousandths of an inch. And it had a special fitting on the top to connect to equipment that it would be used on here at Hanford. It had to be leak-tight so that it would only leak approximately one cubic centimeter in 30 years. That’s tight. And also, cleanliness specifications that were really unheard of. After the container was fabricated, it would be fired in a huge tank-like furnace with hydrogen present. That would turn this into a shiny metal vessel. From that point on, it could not be touched with bare hands. This was really, really difficult to impress on the people that were fabricating, because they were used to handling anything with whatever old leather gloves they had. Because there was to be no fingerprints or anything like that on there, and it was to be completely clean. Well, that went well, because as soon as they figured the inspectors that were back there would reject anything that they saw was handled without white gloves, they caught on in a hurry, and we had no trouble from then on. The job was completed, and they did an excellent job on making these containers for us. The next assignment that I had after that—that was about three months that we worked on that particular contract. I then went to an aluminum company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They were making aluminum process tubes that would be used in the reactors out here. It was really interesting to me to see the way that they proceeded to make these. They would start out with a billet of aluminum, oh, maybe three or four inches in diameter, with a hole through it. By successively pulling that aluminum through dies, they would reduce it from the original dimension down to a process tube that was approximately an inch-and-three-quarters in diameter and roughly 42 feet long. Not only was it a long tube, it had ridges at about 4:00 and 8:00 to support fuel that would go in there and allow for water circulation all the way around the fuel. So as they would draw this, these little ridges would gradually go down until they were exactly where they were. And also there could be no twist in this, so if the ridges were at 4:00 and 8:00 at one end of the tube, they needed to be at the same location at the other end of the tube. But they were very experienced in dong this type of work, and they proceeded to do a fine job for us. After the tubes were inspected and approved for shipment, they would slide like a cardboard sleeve over the outside to protect them, and then these were placed in long wooden boxes. Now, we hear a lot about recycling, but at that time, it wasn’t in everybody’s vocabulary. But they needed some wooden boxes and somebody out here at Hanford said, you know, we had had some previous orders of these tubes, where are the boxes? And they said, oh, these boxes have been surplused and somebody comes in and they have an auction out there and bought them all up. Well, it turns out that the very boxes that we needed were in a surplus yard out in West Richland. The people here, recycling on their mind, contacted that person, bought them back from him after he had bought them here, shipped them to the plant that was manufacturing the tubes back in Pittsburgh and they loaded them up. Then they had to go in a special rail car. Normally, boxcars have side-opening doors. This had to have an end-opening doors on it, so that the tubes, forty-some feet long could be put in this 50-foot box car. Then a bulkhead was built in the end of the railcar in there so the load could not shift. It was stacked to probably about eight, nine feet high in the boxcar and shipped out here and unloaded out here on the plant. So it was interesting to see how they proceeded to do this. This would’ve been in 1951. Interestingly, that was about the time that commercial household aluminum foil came onto the market. It was much in-demand, especially for the holiday season in December there. The employees and people of this plant could buy a thing of aluminum foil at the company store there when it wasn’t available commonly in the supermarkets and so on. But some of these things, you know, we take for granted now that they’ve just always been there. But this company was making all kinds of things, including process tubes for use at Hanford. Franklin: Interesting. Baker: Then, after that project was completed in three or four months, I think, that we were there, I was assigned to another one in Ohio. The process tubes on the reactor go in through a steel tube that is called a gun barrel. This gun barrel is approximately, I would say maybe seven or eight feet long. It had stepped areas on it so that radiation could not stream out of the reactor; it would be stopped by the steel, different intervals long there. Again, this was something that had to be made to within at least a one-thousandth to three-thousandths clearance on every dimension. It was made of steel. The company that had the contract to make these could not fulfill their contract. They failed, and the contract had to be taken away from them. They were months behind, and they had created a huge pile of scrap and that was all to show for their experience. So the contract was canceled, and it was given to another company that was doing work exclusively for the US Navy. In fact, they even managed to get some of the special tooling that was only available that belonged to the US Navy, and it was applied to our job. They put the job—they got busy on it and came through beautifully, and they were able to use these. Because the construction, really, it was essential. They couldn’t put the process tubes in the reactor that was being built at this time until these components were in place. So, it was pretty straightforward once they got the right people working on the job. Again, they came through and provided what we needed out here. So, this pretty much takes care of my first year of employment here. I came back to Hanford, and I was at that time, I still did not have my security clearance. So I was assigned, though, to the B Reactor area and worked with an engineer there on an efficiency study for the power plant. Some of these seem a ways away from chemistry, but, nevertheless, we did do chemical analysis on the combustion products from the coal plant. They were looking for just small improvements on the efficiency, because coal was a big expense for here as far as producing steam. The steam was needed to heat the facilities out there, but it was also used as part of the high pressure pumping system for the reactor. They had an electric motor, and on that same drive shaft was a steam turbine. So if the electric motor lost its power, the steam turbine would pick up the load and supply high pressure water to the reactor until it would get cooled down. So it was a backup for loss of electric power as well. So I worked at that, and about six weeks after I started in on that project, my security clearance came through. That’s what I’d really been waiting for and I got notice of that in the morning, and in the afternoon, the engineer I was working with, my manager, took me over and showed me B Reactor for the first time. And, of course, I was quite impressed with what I saw. It gave me a chance, too, to see where some of these components that I had observed being made across the country, where they were being used out here at Hanford. So after we finished the steam plant study—and by the way, we found out that they were doing a good job as far as the operators. There wasn’t much that we could uncover that would improve their operation. The thing that really made a difference was with the quality of coal that they were buying. If they bought coal that was of low quality, cheap, they didn’t get good results from it. So that was kind of what we learned from that. But at least we knew that no further improvements could be made as far as we could tell. After that, I spent some time, oh, three or four months with the reactor operations group. Then, I was offered an opportunity to do work on graphite research. Graphite had become a really, really big problem. It was going to be limiting the life of the reactors, and they could see that that was exactly where things were headed. This was, again, in 1952. So, they had two large groups of people, a graphite research and a graphite development group, that were studying what to do with this problem. Meantime, DR Reactor had been built, because they could see its lifetime was fast approaching end-of-life, and the plan was that they could then just switch the water plant when D was shut down over to DR and just move on from there. Well, as it turned out, with all this intensive effort, they found ways that they could minimize the expansion that was incurring in the graphite. Up ‘til that time, they had been keeping it nice and cool with helium atmosphere, you know, and everything. As it turned out, the graphite was really being damaged more by those low temperatures than allowing it to go a little higher in temperature. Because every time a fission reaction would occur, a very energetic neutron, over 2 MeV neutron would be generated, and this would interact with the atoms in the graphite and cause it to swell. So by operating at a little higher temperature, you began to relieve some of these problems. But there was a tremendous amount of research that went into there. We would be putting—I was then with a group that would be putting samples in the reactor, taking them out at six weeks to two month intervals, and measuring them in the 300 Area laboratories, then returning them back to the reactor. This way, we were able to learn a lot about what was happening and how to make the reactor measurements so that we could improve the operating characteristics of the plant. In addition to physical measurements, expansion and so on, they measured the conductivity. This was one of the areas that I got pretty heavily involved with. How well the graphite would conduct heat determines, to a large extent, what the temperature’s going to be in there. So, typically, the traditional method was to take a large cylinder of graphite, put a heater in it, and measure temperatures in it as a function of power input and all that. So, it was about that time that somehow or other, I ran across some work that was being done at a US Naval research laboratory in San Francisco area. So I contacted the physicist down there and asked him about it. He invited me down there. He says, I can’t tell you exactly how or what we’re doing with this, but he says, I can show you our equipment and you can take it from there. So, it was a different approach and exactly what we needed to measure the thermal conductivity of graphite from the reactors out there. What they used was putting a pulse of heat into a very small piece of graphite, smaller than the size of a dime. They would put a pulse of heat in there and then measure how fast that heat pulse traveled through this thin sample. From that, you can derive the thermal conductivity. Just what we were looking for. We were able to build equipment that would go into, from the front face of the reactor, go into an opening in the reactor where the process tube had been removed. The saw would rotate 90 degrees and remove a plug of graphite from the inside of that graphite channel. Then we would take that into our lab, slice it up into pieces, and we could tell exactly how the conductivity was changing from the area where the cold processing tube was in contact with the graphite, to out to the edges of the graphite blocks. This provided us a lot of data that hadn’t previously been available. So we built the equipment here to do that type of measurement. They were using flash tubes as the pulse heat source, but it was flash tubes that would be used for aerial night photography. So these were pretty powerful flash tubes. But approximately a year after we started using that technique, lasers were developed. Then we started using pulse lasers, which were a big improvement. From then on, it was pretty much a standard way of measuring conductivity on small samples. In fact, because that capability was available here, one of the things that had been done was to recover a large amount of technetium. Now, technetium is not available in—normally, it’s an element in the periodic table—I don’t remember just which number, now—but all of it that ever was available, if it was, had since decayed. I think it has about a 4-million-year half-life. Very long half-life. But it is a fission product, and they were able to process enough fission products to come up with technetium that could be converted to the metal. And one of my engineering friends out there worked on this project for quite a while. So we got to talking one day, and I said, what are the chances that I could get small piece of that technetium? He said, just fine, we could make that available to you. So, I was able, then, to report for the first time the thermal conductivity of technetium and report it in the literature. So, I really had some interesting assignments along the way. Much of the work on graphite was documented in a book called Nuclear Graphite. It was compiled, edited, by Dr. Richard Nightingale, brought together a lot of information on radiation damage in graphite material. This led into—well, I’ll go back a step there. Battelle came on the scene in 1965. So my employment then changed from General Electric to Battelle. Franklin: Because you had been working at Hanford Labs, right? Baker: Yes. I was working at Hanford Labs at the time, so that part of it went to Battelle, the research side of it. We continued to do graphite research until about 1968 or ’69. At that point, Westinghouse was given the contract to do some preliminary work on the Fast Flux Test Facility. We had a pretty good handle on the graphite problems at that time. There were still, though, questions on materials for using them in a much higher flux environment in the Fast Flux reactor. So we were assigned the task of doing some testing with boron carbide. Now, boron carbide is another interesting, very high temperature material. It has a melting point of about 2,350 Celsius. Incidentally, the graphite—to go back a step there—is made from petroleum coke and petroleum distillates, some of the byproducts of processing petroleum. When it’s just in the form of coke, it’s similar to the charcoal that we might use in our barbecue. But if it is mixed with other carbonaceous products, made into graphite, and then heated up to 2,700 to 2,900 degrees Celsius in electric furnaces, it will turn it into this material that is used for electrodes in electric furnaces. Electric furnace melting is common in the steel industry. When it came time to produce all the graphite that was needed for the reactors out here, already in industry there were a lot of people who knew a lot about graphite, because they had been in the process of making this into electrodes for many years. So then we—to get back—we moved into the boron carbide research, and work was done at testing facilities in Idaho. The problem with boron carbide is that it produces a helium—an alpha particle, a helium atom for each neutron that it captures. Boron-10 is an excellent absorber of material to use in controlling reactors. But it does have the disadvantage that it produces gases. So, the boron carbide is made in the shape of small pellets about half-inch in diameter. When they’re processed, some of the helium is retained in the crystal structure of the boron carbide pellet, but the rest of it is released into the steel pin that contains it. So, eventually it pressurizes the pin and limits how long a control rod will operate. So, our assignment was to figure out under what conditions the helium gas was released and what improvements could be made to make the boron carbide control rods last as long as possible. There was also another thing that was unknown at that time, and that was if a tube should fail, and if there was sodium flowing past it, would it wash out the boron carbide pellets that was in there or not? Well, we actually set up an experiment to do that. With some facilities back at Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, they were able to flow sodium over a simulated failed pin and we could examine what happened. So, this was the type of work that involved high temperature materials that turned out to be the career that I worked on. It was chemically related, but very materials-oriented. I found it to be a fascinating career to be associated with. It really was something where there were a lot of problems and a lot of challenges. So we were able to supply the answers to a lot of that. So that worked pretty well continued up until the mid, oh, about 1986 or so, when I became involved in a group that was doing experiments in the FFTF. There was a need for information on fusion energy at that time, as to what kind of materials could be used in what they called the blanket of a test machine that was being designed. So, we were able to work with Canadian scientists and Japanese scientists on coming up with a design of an experiment that would be placed in the FFTF. This was probably one of the most difficult, most challenging experiments that I had in my whole career working at Hanford, because the experiment was fully instrumentated so that you could follow everything that was happening, and yet it had to be completely failsafe, so that if the experiment failed, the reactor could continue operating without shutting down. We succeeded in designing the experiment. The Canadian scientists were extremely helpful in designing part of the tritium recovery, because tritium is what we were producing in these tests. Every bit of tritium had to be recovered. We had a large glovebox, it was about 12 feet high with multiple glove ports. We’d reach in at different levels and operate valves and equipment inside of it. Many challenges, and it operated absolutely perfectly the whole time, and it provided a lot of data. Battelle was responsible for compiling, reporting the data at many conferences. The experiment continued until, and an experiment was in place when Hanford received the orders from the Department of Energy that the FFTF had to be shut down and we had to terminate our experiments at that time. But it seemed like we really got a lot of important information as a result of the experiments that were done. It turned out to me to be an exciting career to be involved with. So that kind of summarizes quite a few years of interesting work at Hanford for me. Franklin: What was the tritium used for when that was being created? Baker: The tritium eventually was used for the weapons program. But it was more of a byproduct of a material that was being used for control rods. Because control rods were used in all the reactors out there. Since it could build up pressure inside of the tubes, we needed to know how much. There even was some work that we were involved with in putting a metal sintered—like an escape valve—on some of the pins so that as the gas would be produced, the helium could be released without allowing sodium to go back in. But it was not highly successful and we gave up on that after not too much experimental work. But the combination of sodium being a reactive metal, as it is, we had a lot of challenges, too. Oh, another interesting part of the graphite work that we did was, in addition to looking at dimensional changes that were causing the graphite to expand and contract, in some cases, too, after a certain point, it would contract. So, you had peaks and valleys in a channel through the reactor. They tried to go in and bore that hole out so that it would be easier to slip a process tube through. And in some cases, they were successful, but the graphite, after it’s irradiated becomes extremely hard. They had to use carbon tools to even kind of—we use carbon tools all the time in the laboratory; otherwise, metal saw blades just wouldn’t do it. We had to use diamond blades to cut into it, it was so hard. But we also were interested—once they learned to use a gas mixture: a mixture of CO2 and helium to adjust the temperature. This was the key to controlling the expansion that was limiting the life of the reactors. Once we started using that, then we needed to know, in a radiation field, will carbon dioxide react at a different rate with carbon? Because at a high temperature, CO2 plus carbon will produce carbon monoxide. So we put together our own high-radiation-level cobalt source in the 300 Area. I went out looking again, it was the recycle route. We found a surplus tank that had been used for—was going to be used for some separations processing work, but it was no longer needed. It was about eight feet in diameter and approximately 15 feet tall. We found a building in the 300 Area where we could dig a hole that deep. In fact, we dug it a little deeper than that, and managed to prepare a tank-type facility to make Cobalt-60 irradiation source. The tank was just about even with floor level; went down 14 feet. Filled with water, and had a barrier all the way around the top of it. Filled with distilled water, because we didn’t want to have some of the corrosion products that will happen if you have aluminum in contact with mineral water. But loading it with cobalt was another challenge. We started out with about 15,000 curies of cobalt, which gave us a pretty good source. But it wasn’t what we really needed. So over approximately three or four years, we were able to increase that to 630,000 curies of cobalt-60. That is a lot of cobalt-60. At that time, it was probably the fifth largest cobalt facility in the United States. It had produced radiation levels of approximately 17 million roentgens per hour. It was—without the water shielding over it, the radiation would’ve been lethal in fractions of a second. But, with 14 feet of water shielding us, we could look down at the blue glow, and we would have our experiments suspended above that would go down into one- or two-inch tubes, right down to within an inch or two of the cobalt. The cobalt rods were approximately 16 inches high. The cobalt was made locally, out in the K Reactors. Transporting it was another interesting challenge. We would ship it in from the reactor area in a lead-filled container cask. The container—the cask would be located down into the water, the lid removed, the cobalt elements would be placed into it, the lid would be placed back on the container, it would be brought to the surface of the water, then with all that—it was approximately 40 inches in diameter—with that much lead around the cobalt, we could approach it and they would put very secure bolts in the top of it. But then, it would be removed from the water, and we had an eight-hour time limit to get it from the 100 Areas down to the 300 Area and into water again. Because there were limits on how much heat could be absorbed in the lead shielding. So we had a crane capable of lifting several-ton cask that was set up ahead of time. A section of the roof on this building was removed, the cask would be lowered down through the roof, down into this water-filled tank that we had. We remotely took the cap off, took the cobalt-60 elements out, and we had our own cobalt-60 source for examining materials to see what the effect of gamma radiation would have on the materials. Quite interesting. Whenever they had that shipment, patrol cars would be stationed at each railroad crossing, and the patrol cars stopped the trains while the trucks went through. Franklin: Wow. Baker: But it was planned in advance, and everything worked fine. Franklin: What kinds of materials were you testing next to this cobalt thing for gamma radiation exposure? Baker: We were testing such things as camera lenses, for example. But mainly its justification was to see whether the cobalt—the gamma radiation would enhance the reaction of carbon dioxide with the graphite. Would there be more reaction going on as result of the gamma radiation present than not? What we found was that it wasn’t really significant; it was primarily a temperature-controlled reaction. So we already were aware, pretty much, of what the limitations on the graphite temperatures would be. We had thermal couples to measure—and there were thermal couples also that were built into the graphite moderator stack at the time the reactor was built to measure the temperatures. But on one occasion, we did make a periscope—one of the other engineers that was working in this graphite group made a periscope that fitted into the front face where a process tube had been removed, and it matched up against the seal where this gun-barrel-type-arrangement that penetrated into the graphite stack was. That slid in there, and the light, the glow from the graphite went down a series of mirrors, was reflected back to the other one and back again. So we had a periscope that we could physically use an optical pyrometer and measure the temperature of the graphite using that kind of a device. It was probably the first time—first and only time—that we were able to look into an operating Hanford reactor. But the engineer that was involved with that was a very talented individual. He came up with something that no one else had thought of doing up until that time. Franklin: Wow. And what year would that have been? Baker: That was probably in abut 19—somewhere in the late 1960s. Franklin: Late 1960s. Wow, that’s really quite amazing. Baker: Yeah. No, it was probably earlier than that. Probably early ‘60s. Probably around 1960, ’62, something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. So cobalt, then—cobalt’s a gamma emitter, correct? Baker: Yes, it is. Franklin: So 14 feet of water, then, was enough to blunt the gamma rays, to be able to observe that? Baker: Yes, it was, mm-hmm. It absorbs that radiation. It’s an ideal material because you can look down there and see what you’re doing. You have to have long tong manipulators to work with things, but it has a very penetrating gamma ray that’s emitted, I think it’s around 1.5 MeV. So it’s a very energetic, very penetrating ray. Some gamma rays are—beta particles, for example, do not penetrate like a gamma ray would. But it has a short half life; as I recall, it’s something around five years? 5.7 years, I’m not sure of that. So, half of it would decay. After we’d made the final really big load, we had 630,000, that was pretty much maxed out, as far as the amount of cobalt in that facility and they just continued to use it, probably for at least 25 years after that, exploring effects of gamma radiation on various materials. Franklin: Because then after a certain point, so much of it would’ve been decayed that it’s— Baker: Yeah, a certain amount of it would be decayed. But it still was being used at a time when they started to—well, I guess the cobalt had been removed; the facility was there when they were cleaning up Hanford. Now that facility’s been completely removed, the building and all traces of it, now, I think are gone. But it was used for quite a while. Franklin: That glow you were talking about, that’s what’s called Cherenkov’s radiation? Baker: That’s is the—that’s the name. It’s due to the interaction with the structure of the water, the absorption produces a blueish glow. Have you ever seen that? Franklin: Not naturally, no. I’ve seen photos of it. Baker: It’s beautiful. Now, I think that the reactor, possibly, at WSU, it is a form of a trigger reactor, is it not? And I think that there probably is a similar glow with that, with the reactor that’s over at the Pullman campus. Franklin: Oh, wow. I’ll have to—maybe I’ll get the chance to see that someday. Baker: Sometime when you’re over there, it would be interesting to drop by and have a look at that facility. Franklin: Yeah, it sure would. So you said that you worked on this project with the cobalt and everything at FFTF up until the mid-‘50s, right? And then what did you do after that, after the project— Baker: Well, it was about 1969 when it went into the boron carbide work. The boron carbide work continued until 1986. At that time, I became a part of the group that was doing the design for the joint experiments with the Canadian and Japanese scientists on blanket materials, absorbent materials, for use in the FFTF. That’s when we started designing that facility. I think what made this work so interesting was that usually we were in on the design phase of it. And then followed it through from the fabrication of the experiment, getting all the approvals, safety approvals and so on, actual construction, inserting the experiments into the reactors, starting them up, and collecting the data. So we could see, from start to finish, how the project went. I think this had a lot of value, because that way there was feedback. You could see how you might have done a project in a different way, and it would suggest other ways of doing things. I think, many times, a designer may not have that privilege of being able to see the end result and knowing whether the decisions made in the design were the best ones to make. So I found that that was really an exciting part of doing the work to see something through from start to finish. Franklin: You’ll have to forgive me because I’m not a—I just want to make sure I’m following and understanding everything correctly because I’m not a nuclear scientist. When you say blanket materials, what is a blanket material? Baker: A blanket material is the material that was proposed to go around a fusion energy machine. Now, fusion energy has been—its advances have been very slow and very difficult to come by. But right now there is a fusion machine that is being built in France. But they need to confine a plasma to get the fusion of deuterium and tritium, or various elements at the low end of the periodic table, to fuse together to release energy. The fission energy comes from the process of fissioning elements at the high end of the periodic table. In fusion energy, the work that is being done, they are proposing that there would be an intense field of neutrons present, and that some of these neutrons could be absorbed in what they call the blanket. The blanket was the area immediately surrounding where the fusion is taking place. So we were just doing materials, evaluating them, to serve as materials that could surround—that would be in the area surrounding a fusion energy device, and absorb these neutrons, thereby making some tritium that could be circulated back into the fusion machine so it could be making some of its fuel. Products typically—lithium, when you bombard lithium with neutrons, you will produce tritium from that. So many of the materials that have been proposed have followed the use of lithium. So the work that we were doing in FFTF was examining potential materials that could be used in a fusion apparatus. Franklin: So that’s not shielding, then, that’s materials to help, I guess in a way, moderate the reaction, but capture that tritium to recycle back into the— Baker: Exactly! That’s a good way—it would be a way of producing more fuel that could be used to fusion, yes. Franklin: Because fusion is bringing the atoms together, right, which produces an immense amount of energy— Baker: That is true. Franklin: So is that blanket material there also there to capture that enormous amount of energy? Or is that just to capture the other atoms made by this fusion? Baker: It’s more, I think, to capture the neutrons to provide a feedback of process for fuels to make more tritium atoms to put back into the process to keep it going. Franklin: Oh, wow, wow. Baker: So that was the purpose of working on those materials for that. Franklin: Oh, that’s really fascinating. So now we’re just—France, you said, is building the first fusion reactor. Baker: Yes. There are other nations—I’m not sure which nations now are involved, but France has been behind this for a long time. Interest by the United States lagged for a little while, oh, probably ten, 15 years ago. They had cut back some on the support for that. But then some advances were made, and it looked like it was really something that the United States should be involved with, so they are still a participant in the fusion energy research that’s going on. Franklin: How long did you work on this blanket material project with Canada and Japanese scientists? Baker: Well, it went from 1986 until, I believe the FFTF reactor was shut down in 1992. So that six-year period was when we were working with the Canadian and Japanese scientists. The Canadians had much experience in tritium work, because they use heavy water reactors. The heavy water reactors do produce some tritium in the process. So some of us took classes up there in how to safely handle and capture tritium. What the Canadians came up with, their contribution to this project was that in the FFTF, when we would be irradiating these materials and making tritium, we would be able to adjust the temperatures and look at how fast the tritium was released from the material, depending on the temperature and what other gases were present. This sort of information. All of the tritium that was produced, it had to be—it was swept out of the reactor, a helium line went in with extremely high—less than one part per million of impurities in the helium, because we didn’t want any activation of any impurities in the gas to be swept out of the reactor. And that gas, the sweep gas, that went down over the samples, came back out, went into all the instrumentation that was in this large glovebox. So, we had to capture all of the tritium that we made. None of it escaped to the outside at all. So the Canadians came up with highly efficient materials that were combination of zirconium and some other elements to capture that tritium. They would actually form hydrides or trihydrides as a combination that they would react with and tie it up so that it was a stable compound. It would—since the tritium has a very soft beta emission, we would typically have maybe a couple thousand curies of tritium in a tube that was approximately an inch-and-a-quarter in diameter by about 12 inches long. But it was completely shielded; you couldn’t detect any information on the outside of the capsule, yet it contained huge amounts of tritium. But it was all captured, and that’s what the glovebox—it contained all of the materials, the chemical materials, that were needed to capture the tritium. Franklin: Wow, that’s interesting. So the hydrogen would be able to sweep up, basically, the tritium and become tritium-laden, then? Baker: Yes, that’s right. The helium— Franklin: Helium, sorry. Baker: The helium would sweep out all the tritium. In some cases, if we used a little bit of hydrogen mixed in with this ultra-high-purity helium, then we’d be able to sweep it out much faster. It seems like the materials would react with our samples and we would sweep it out so we would see rapid releases of tritium from the material. Which was important information to have, because if you’re going to extract this from a fusion machine, you might want to know how to get it out of your compounds faster. So those experiments continued on, then, until FFTF shut down. And then I worked for about three more years after that on instrumentation for the waste tanks out at Hanford. Much of it was involved with that tank that would periodically release bursts of gas. Franklin: The burping tank. Baker: The burping tank, yes. That was instrumented, too. They had various kinds of gas instrumentation installed right there at the tank. The controls for it were in a trailer park right next to the Tank Farm fence. So we had continuous monitoring on that. I was involved in some of the operation and maintenance of the helium gas analysis equipment. Franklin: Oh, wow. Baker: So I worked on that until I retired then. Franklin: And you retired in 1995? Baker: ‘95, yes. Franklin: So, what, 44 years. Baker: 44 years I had worked out there. I can think of nothing in the way that I really want to change. I always felt that we were working very safely. I feel that we really had a good knowledge of what we were doing at the time. Franklin: Sure. I want to come back to a couple things you mentioned earlier. Maybe just ask you more about the social/cultural aspects of living in Richland. So when you mentioned you’d moved into a dorm for your first few weeks here in north Richland, which I imagine—those were dorms for the Hanford construction camp, right? Baker: Yes, they had used some for that and some for other workers, because all of the housing, even in downtown Richland, was controlled by the government. So you got on a list and you got high enough priority, then you could move to a more desirable location. So by the time I came back after traveling around the country for a year, I’d moved up on the list and was eligible for a dorm in downtown Richland. These dorms were built on Jadwin between Swift and—what’s the next street north of there? Not Symons. Franklin: Williams? Baker: Williams, yeah. The dorms were located in that general area there. And then there were some other dorms for the women employees that were down approximately where the Albertson’s store is now. Franklin: Right, right. We have photos of those. Baker: Those were the two locations fro those. I was in the dorms for only, oh, maybe about three years. Or, not the dorms. Yeah. The single dorm rooms. And then I was able to get an apartment on Gribble Street. There were some apartments along there, and I rented an apartment there for a while until I then later bought my own house in Richland. Franklin: Your dorm—so, were there mess halls that went with the dorms, or were you—did they have kitchens? I’m wondering if you could describe the dorms for me, kind of how that living arrangement worked. Baker: The dorms were single occupancy rooms. You know, as a matter of fact, there may still be one of those in use in the City of Richland. Franklin: I’ve heard there’s one off Jadwin. Baker: On Jadwin. It is—where is that, I can see it— Franklin: Someone told me— Baker: It’s on Van Giesen. Franklin: Van Giesen, right, right. Baker: I think it’s on Van Giesen between George Washington Way and Jadwin. Franklin: Yeah, they said it’s by the 7 Eleven. Baker: Yes, there’s a 7 Eleven on the corner of Jadwin and Van Giesen, and about halfway down that block, on the north side is one little building. I think it still may have rooms for people that rent that just want a dorm-type room. Franklin: Interesting. I drive that way home everyday. I’m going to see if I can find it. Baker: I’m going to look again, too. Look and see if it’s not still there. Franklin: Because those would’ve been the Alphabet House dorms, right? I think they were the J— Baker: No, I think they were—even—they were mostly—Ms and Ws. There was an M-1, M-2, M-3. I lived in M-5 for a while. And the women’s dorms were similarly numbered W such-and-such. Franklin: Right, the Army gets very creative with its naming system. Baker: And there were some restaurants and cafeterias in Richland. One of the cafeteria-type operations was on that corner, just across from where the Federal Building is right now, at the corner of Knight and Jadwin. It was on the southwest corner. They had a large eating facility in there. But that was pretty much the way that—the dorms were all right. One of the things that I do kind of remember there, you know, you’re going to have a mix of all kinds of people in a dorm like that. Well, one of the occupants decided he was going to make some homebrew. So he brewed up this and then put the caps on it and everything. He had his own bottle capper. And then he put them under his bed in the room. Well, this tends—especially if you haven’t processed it right, it will generate some CO2 gas. Franklin: Yeah, it will. Baker: In the middle of the night, these started going off, almost simultaneously, more than one. So as the cap would blow off, the beer would come out, it would soak all the bottom of the bedding. When you walked down the hall, you would think that you were in the local tavern, because it really smelled of—so, he could no longer hide the fact that he was making some homebrew in his dorm room. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Did you say—you mentioned that there would be all kinds of people in there. So was it a mix of blue and white collar workers or people of all different jobs? Baker: Yes, it was. It was kind of a mix of blue and white collar, mm-hmm. It really was. Franklin: And it would’ve been all single men, right? Baker: All single men. And single women. Some of the women worked at the hospital, they worked in the schools in Richland. But, yeah, that’s pretty much the way it was. Franklin: I wonder if you could describe to me your first impressions of Richland, coming in in June of ’51, coming into this government town where there was no private property and everything was government-owned. Baker: Yeah. Well, it was really foreign to my way of thinking. But it seemed like—there was real effort, once the property was sold. People could buy their homes and businesses were encouraged to come in to make it more normal. But it was not—it was unusual circumstances to be in. And you really didn’t have the freedom of choice, shall we say, as to what you could do. You knew that if you were in the government housing that you were only qualified for certain types of housing, depending on how long you’d been here, your marital status, whether you were single or married, whether you had children. If you had more children, then you were entitled to a house with more bedrooms. People just kind of adapted to what the conditions were at that time. There really were a lot of young people at the time that were living here that were attracted to this area. They were a very enthusiastic group. There were a lot of social activities, groups that even to this day still exist. There was a ski club that was very popular with the young people. Sometimes they would take off for, especially a three-day weekend. We could get on a train at Pasco, go to Spokane and switch to another train, and go over to Missoula, Montana and ski at Big Mountain at Whitefish. We would arrive over there about 5:00 in the morning and go out and have a full day on the slopes for a couple days. Then jump on the train, get back in. That first day back was kind of rough, though, because we were getting in early in the morning and have to get to work at 7:30 in the morning. But it worked out fine. Other times, there were bus trips, chartered buses took us to Sun Valley for skiing, some of the mountains up in Canada. It was really a lot of fun. Border crossings were fairly simple at that time. You’d come back and they weren’t supposed to—they were only supposed to bring a certain amount of alcoholic beverages back from Canada because of the alcohol laws in the State of Washington at that time. So when we’d be coming back, typically, a border security officer would step inside the bus and look and say, well, did you have a good time up here? Yeah, we had a good time. Okay. That was the end of it. They wouldn’t check to see whether everybody was within the limits allowed or not. But you never knew when they would check. But the security was very much unlike how it is now as far as border crossings. Franklin: Yeah, kind of a different time, huh? Baker: Yeah, a different time. Franklin: You mentioned there were a lot of young people. Did that strike you, that there weren’t a lot of established families at Hanford? That most people here—because you had to work at Hanford to live in Richland. Baker: Yeah, that seemed—but I think—the town was pretty full. It was an unusual condition, but it seemed like there was always so much going on with this group of people, that they made things happen for themselves. I recall—this was back in probably the early ‘50s, we had an engineer join our group working on the graphite. He was from the Boston area. That man continually complained. There’s nothing to do, there’s this, there’s that, I don’t have, I can’t go to see the latest operas, I can’t—and we said, you know, there’s a lot to do here—and there was. But he complained so much, people reminded him occasionally: well, you can always go back. And certainly, sure enough, he only stayed here about three years. He couldn’t take it. He was the type of person that needed that big city environment to exist. It just wasn’t the place for it. And so he left. And the area was probably better because we didn’t have him around complaining. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Was the Uptown finished by the time you got here? Baker: It was underway—it was just kind of being developed, yeah. The stores were going in and they were gradually—but it was about that time when the Uptown was being developed. But there was a lot of—still, a lot of sagebrush around. Even when some of the ranch houses were built out on the west side along the bypass highway right now, they would frequently run into large groups of rattlesnakes that would be locally in one area. They would have to get rid of them. There were some things here, you know, that you wouldn’t expect. But rattlesnakes were— One of the things that they had to be careful even in the 300 Area, if some of the buildings had a crawlspace underneath where the maintenance personnel would have to climb under there to work on waterlines and steam valves and other things, and they had to be extremely careful, because there was—Well, one time right in 306 Building, I was working out there one evening. Working late. I was on the second floor, and the only other person was a janitor who was working on the first floor. All of the sudden, I heard this scream, and I thought, what is going on?! Did somebody break in and attack that janitor? I knew it was the janitor. She was absolutely panicked. She was up against the wall in one of the restrooms that was downstairs. The entrance to the restroom door was within two feet of the outside door. A rattlesnake had come in from the outside and made its way into the restroom. She went in to empty the waste basket; she picked it up and she was facing this rattlesnake. She froze and just let out this scream. I went down there and saw what was under control, and she couldn’t hardly talk. So I said, well, we have a way to handle such situations. Don’t worry. We called the person that really—when this sort of thing happened, there was always somebody in the power plant there—the steam plant, that could help out. The person was really an accomplished snake handler. He came over with a plastic bag inside of a wastebasket. He approached the snake, put the wastebasket and plastic bag over it, gently pulled the plastic bag up around it, captured the snake in the plastic bag, and proceeded to walk out the door with this rattlesnake. The last that ever happened. But, oh, that janitor and I, we often joked about that incident. But at the time, you know, it was very serious. Franklin: Oh, sure. Baker: But the outcome was fine. [LAUGHTER] The snake was returned to its desert environment. Franklin: Right, right. Well, I mean, they were—they did predate humans here, so— Baker: Oh, yes, yes, and there were a lot of snakes. Well, in fact, I belong to a mountain climbing group that typically every January 1st would climb Badger Mountain. They still do. On January 1st. One year, we went out there, and it was kind of a warm sunny day. We were all surprised to see a rattlesnake sunning itself out on a rock on the top—very top of Badger on that January 1st day. So, I couldn’t believe it, but I actually saw it happen. So you do have to be a little careful, I think, to this day, climbing Badger, not to venture off too far from the trail into areas unless you have high boots on and are prepared for encountering a rattlesnake. Franklin: Wow. No thank you. Baker: Me, either. Franklin: What other kinds of social activities did you partake in in Richland? Baker: Well, one of the activities that I really got involved with was what was then called the Richland Opera Group. They put on one or two Broadway-type productions. I usually worked behind the scenes: sound, lighting, that part of the stage group. But I appeared, I think, in two shows in a walk-on-type situation as part of a crowd scene. I think that was in Fiddler on the Roof, was one of them. But anyway, that was a really good group of people. In fact, it happened to be the place where I met my wife. She was playing in the orchestra at the time. So there were activities if one wanted to—you really didn’t have to search very hard to find interesting things to do. There was no lack of things for me to do. I didn’t have the feeling at all like the Bostonian, that I needed to get out of town to find some entertainment. Franklin: When did you meet your wife? Baker: Pardon? Franklin: When did you meet your wife? Baker: It was probably in the late ‘60s. First she was frequently playing in the orchestras and I was working on the shows. So that was the place where we met, was through the light opera group. Very—it was a fun group and entertaining group. You never were quite sure how the shows—there were some shows that involved a lot of children, like The Sound of Music, they would double cast the show, because in one case I remember just about two weeks before the show was scheduled to go on, the measles—there wasn’t all the vaccines then, and one of the kids in the group caught the measles. But they were over it by the time the show was ready to go on stage for the audience. It was something that—always some surprises along the way. Franklin: Right, kind of shook everybody up. Did you ever buy an Alphabet House or live in an Alphabet House? Baker: No, I didn’t. I had considered it at the time, but I bought one of the newer houses, then, when I finally got around to buying. I lived in the apartments down there for probably about eight years or so, and I thought, oh, this is kind of stupid. I might as well be living in a house of my own and I could do what I wanted with it. So that’s what I did. I got busy with that and became a homeowner. But there were still the interesting things, a lot going on if anybody wanted. I got involved with amateur radio operations, became a part of that group, and served with some emergency communications preparations groups. To this day, the amateur radio operations are a part of the emergency center that we have in south Richland down there to serve as a backup. Because in many times, they will have the equipment battery operated or even generator operated power sources that can be used for emergency communication. Because I think a lot of people feel overconfident with their cell phones nowadays, but cell phones, after all, also require electricity to run. Franklin: They do, indeed! Baker: Oftentimes, the amateur radio can get through when other communications may fail. It was part of the technology challenge, I think, of some of these things. I went ahead and studied and progressed through the range of licenses that you can get to be licensed. Had my own station and so on. I get busy with other things like my work. But still, I am a licensed operator and have some equipment to get on the air with that. Franklin: Oh, cool. Baker: Yeah, it’s—like I say, the things—it seemed that I tended to move toward the more technical aspects of even the recreation and the social, where it was the technical side of the light opera shows that I participated in. But I always found—I never lacked for something to do. I always found something that was interesting to do. Franklin: Did this radio service start out as a civil defense measure? Baker: Well, it dates back a long, long ways, where the certain frequencies were set aside more for experimentation so that operators could come up with new equipment, new developments, antenna improvements and that sort of thing. So continuing to this day, there are certain frequencies that are set aside. As times have changed, and we’ve gone more to digital communications, there is a digital mode of communications that I’m working on right now to try to get that on the air that involves very little power. If you could imagine something two to three watts, barely the amount of power that it takes for a nightlight, and use that power on a transmitter to talk to Europe, is I think something that I want to do. And it’s being done all the time right now. But that’s the sort of things—you know, again, there are people that continually work on contesting to see how many others they can talk to, whereas others are looking at the equipment, and how to improve what we have. So, there’s something there, even if you want to, you could do digital TV. There are some frequencies set aside for amateur radio experimenters in that field as well. Franklin: Oh, cool. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: --company? Baker: The Savanna River—oh, yeah, the company that was— Franklin: In Milwaukee— Baker: A.O. Smith. They’re the ones that make the water—I think to this day they, they make glass-lined water heaters. They used to. Franklin: You’re saying A-O or ale? Baker: A. O. Letter A, O, Smith, S-M-I-T-H, was the company. The other—Alcoa was the company in Pittsburgh that I referred to. Franklin: I’ve heard of—Alcoa’s a big company. Baker: Oh, they’re big. Yeah, generally they went to experienced contractors that they knew could do the job for them, they would do a good job. Franklin: Oh, sure. Baker: You know. And some of them were difficult— Franklin: We ready? Okay! Just a couple more questions. I’m wondering if you—I want to ask you a couple milestones in Tri-Cities history. Do you remember any of the Atomic Frontier Days parades or Richland Days parades, and did you go to any of those or— Baker: Oh, maybe a few of them. It seemed like the Atomic days parades didn’t last too long. It seemed to quickly became a Tri-Cities area event. Then with bringing the boat races in and so on, it was something that was more that the whole Tri-Cities event. Again, it was perhaps an unfortunate event. I was working with radio operators, again, providing emergency communications at one of the boat races. This was probably back in the late ‘60s, perhaps. Unfortunately, there was a lot of drug activity going on at that time. I was attached to a Red Cross first aid group. Someone in a group came and asked for help from the Red Cross that someone had crawled under a car, and somebody else had jumped on the hood and had come down. The person had a head injury from this person jumping on the car. The Red Cross person evaluated the situation right away and wanted to call an ambulance for help. The friends would not agree to this, because the person was on drugs. They said, if you call them, he’s going to be charged with drug usage. They held off, probably for at least a half an hour. They finally relented and said, well, maybe we’d better just take a chance and call and have it checked out. And they did. But after that, the boat races never had the attraction for me. I was really disturbed by the action of some people that would endanger the life of a friend just to protect them from a drug charge. I never participated in any more radio activities with the boat races. That was the end of it for me. Franklin: I’m wondering if—do you remember the JFK visit in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor? Baker: Yes, I do remember that time. It was very exciting to have the president here for that. Franklin: Were you there that day? Baker: I did not go out to it, but we saw the caravan moving out. It moved right past the 300 Area and went out to the dedication ceremony. But, yes, that was an exciting time for the Tri-Cities, for sure. Franklin: What do you—what about, were you here for President Nixon’s visit, as well? Baker: I don’t recall much of that. But as a part of my amateur radio activities, I had attended a Northwest convention in Seaside, Oregon. They have one of those every year. We had a speaker there that had been the radio person on Air Force One for several presidents. I think he had served in that position for over 30 years. He told us that he was on the flight that took Nixon to China the first time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Baker: And he said that he got a call in the middle of the night. He said, Air Force One has to be ready to go all the time. Any time you want to go. He got a call late in the evening and they said, be ready to go, we’re leaving in something like two hours. And we’ll be at the airport or wherever it was supposed to be. And he said, well, what kind of clothes shall I take? Can’t tell you. Anything I need to do? Just be there. Even the person that will be on the plane with the president didn’t know where they were going until he was on the plane with the president and discovered that they were going to China. That’s how secret that particular operation was. But he traveled with several of the presidents and he had some really interesting tales, as you can imagine someone that served that long, and had an interesting job. Franklin: Yeah. I wonder if you could ruminate, maybe, on the Chernobyl accident and how it affected the community here and how people—or how you reacted to it and how others in the community reacted to it. Baker: Well, we were really—we didn’t know that much about the Russian reactors. We knew that they had graphite-moderated reactors, the same as we had. There was a great concern, because one of the topics that I did not mention earlier was that in the process of graphite being damaged by neutrons contacting the atoms in the graphite crystalline structure, sometimes the atoms would be displaced. Graphite has a crystalline structure, a layered structure. So sometimes atoms would be displaced, and this would eventually cause some of the overall expansion that we were seeing. These atoms, as the temperature was increased, could return to a more stable lattice position, and in the process release energy. This energy was called stored energy. Now, there was an incident in stored energy that happened at wind scale. It only went for a small area in the reactor, and then it kind of self-propagates for a while, and then it terminates, depending on the conditions. But we knew that there was a chance for one of these temperature excursions. I believe that, well, it was related, too, to the Chernobyl incident, because they had some temperatures that went up quite high in that incident, and undoubtedly some of it was as a result of graphite damage—the energy being released. So we had monitored that situation in Hanford reactors for a long time. So some of these samples that we would take out of there, we knew that there was very little concern at that time of releasing stored energy, because we had raised the temperatures enough in the reactor that this was no longer a problem. It’s only when the graphite is operated at a low temperature that stored energy becomes—can become a serious problem, and one that you have to be aware of. So the Chernobyl, we were aware of what was going on. But it had a little different dimensional situation. It had some unfortunate design characteristics that weren’t—looking back now—the best thing to do in the design of a reactor. But there was great interest here in seeing whether we would have any problems related with graphite. And it turned out we didn’t have to do anything differently than we had been doing for years before that. Franklin: But this stored energy, if enough of it was in the reactor, could cause—could release enough heat where the reactor itself could overheat? Baker: Definitely. That is the case, yes. Franklin: I see. Baker: There was a small reactor, I think a Brookhaven reactor, and that was an air-cooled reactor. So it didn’t operate at high levels for a long time, but nevertheless, it was definitely a concern with the people reacting that, because it’s the low temperature, long time periods that will cause that stored energy-type damage. Franklin: Interesting. Wow. Baker: Yeah. Franklin: One of my last questions. So, you were—I think your career is really remarkable because you came here in this kind of early ‘50s when the construction’s ramping up, and then you saw the eventual draw-down and probably the fight to save the different reactors, N and FFTF, and you were still working here when the decision was made to shift from production to cleanup and that whole mission changed. I’m wondering if you could describe your overall feelings and recollections on that shift between cleanup and how it affected you and how it affected your coworkers, the people you worked with. Baker: Yeah. Well, I think that we could see that with the shutting down of the reactors that the place would be entirely different. It was hoped by many people that there would be more power generating facilities built here by Energy—WPPSS at that time. But that wasn’t to be. I think many of us were encouraged to see that something that should’ve been done much earlier in the way of processing the waste was finally going to be recognized and people could move forward with that task. The approach that they’ve taken has been a long one and a very costly one, but they are making progress to converting that waste from a liquid form to a solid form for storage, and I think everyone is very happy to see that happen, wants to see it proceed as quickly as can be. But as far as the research opportunities, even though there were budget uncertainties along the way and as we see the reactors were shut down, it seems like there was always something else for us, a next step to see in the way of the research side. Like the FFTF work, and Battelle was steadily increasing their staff on research and doing other types of research, both government and private. So it still seemed like a good place to work and be and this area has so much to offer. It really does. And so most of us didn’t give too much thought in moving immediately because we were afraid that the place was going to just deteriorate and go back to sagebrush. We could see that there was more ahead for the Tri-City area and stayed here and enjoyed it until now. Franklin: So are you saying that there was a general feeling, at least among some of the workers, that the cleanup—that dealing with the waste problem should’ve been tackled earlier on in the cycle? Because you said you were happy that something which should’ve done earlier was finally being done. Do you think there was a general feeling that that should’ve been handled earlier on than kind of waiting—making that the main focus should’ve happened earlier--? Baker: I think a lot of people felt that way. Because everybody knows that there was a finite lifetime to these tanks, and they were well beyond their designed expectancy, you know, that they would be a suitable place to store waste. So I think that they were really wanting to see this proceed. The facility that they’re designing out there is extremely complicated. Savanna River has been vitrifying waste for quite a while, but on a smaller scale. It will be good to see the facilities out here finally end up producing solidified waste for storage, because it definitely needs to be done. We can’t keep it in the liquid form forever like that, without expecting deterioration in the tanks and so on, the very sorts of problems that we’re experiencing right now. Franklin: Sure. I wonder, how did you—living and working at Hanford through so much of the Cold War, did you ever feel an immediacy of the Cold War on your work, or did you ever feel that your work was linked to different events in the Cold War? How much of a presence of that was in your life? Baker: Not really a lot—we didn’t really think too much about that. Our focus was more short-term, perhaps, solving the problems at the time. The one of getting the graphite expansion, which was limiting the life of the reactors, was a big, big effort to solve that. So on a day-to-day basis, I don’t think that the result of this and its tie-in with the Cold War—didn’t seem to have a big impact on the people that I associated with. Franklin: Mm. And my last question, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Baker: I think that they should know that, personally, I felt that I was working in a very safe environment. I did not feel that I was endangering my health in any way during that time. Sincerely, they had very ambitious schedules going on to meet, but nevertheless, it was always done with safety in mind. I think that bears it out, because we have had excellent safety record here. So I feel that I was probably safer working here than in some industrial environments. I really do. Franklin: Well, Don, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time— Baker: You’re welcome. Franklin: --to come and talk to us today. Baker: Yeah. Franklin: Great. <a href="https://youtu.be/oHe1y9saIWg">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor D Reactor DR Reactor 300 Area FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 100 Areas N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald Baker Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) West Richland (Wash.) Chemistry Nuclear reactors Radiation Description An account of the resource Donald Baker moved to Richland, Washington in 1951. Don worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1995. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/05/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcdcf48bf96c34a76552480aee244f89b.JPG 6a7419488f76a1d3bbfc9a8c7fd15bcb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97397042f47cc130681ecc409d66e9ea.mp4 fe7a6e3d08e2d3da7a6602b0a2e3a7b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donald Bell, Sr. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Donald Bell, Senior on April 4, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking to Donald about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Donald Bell, Senior: Donald Bell, Senior. D-O-N-A-L-D, B-E-L-L, S-R. Franklin: Great, thanks Donald. So, where did your parents move to the area from? Bell: My parents moved to the area probably form Mississippi. Franklin: Okay. Why? Bell: Well, they grew up in Mississippi. My mom was born in ‘33. Just hard times in Mississippi. I think when most males got a chance or got old enough to get out of Mississippi, they got out. So whether it was the military, or finding a job somewhere, just getting away. Franklin: Yeah. When did they come to the Hanford area? Bell: I’m thinking that my dad came here in the ‘50s, I’m thinking. Franklin: Okay. Bell: And my mom, probably a little bit later. She followed her brothers out here. Franklin: Were your parents married before they moved to the area or did they meet here? Bell: No, they weren’t married before they moved here. Franklin: Did they know each other before? Bell: No, I think just living in Pasco is how they met. They were from two different parts from Mississippi. I think my uncles ended up knowing my dad and his brother, you know those two brothers met these two brothers type deal, so I think that’s how. Franklin: Okay. What do you know about their lives before they came to the Tri-Cities? Bell: I don’t know a lot, but I’ve been doing, I’ve done a family—I didn’t know a lot about my dad’s family, so I started doing a family tree. Oh, I finished it in 2012, so I probably started by 2010. Just trying to gather—because I didn’t know a lot, so just trying to find cousins and stuff that knew a little bit about where they lived at and how their lives was, basically if they were farmers or share croppers. Franklin: Okay. And what drew your parents to the Tri-Cities area? Bell: I think the work drew them here, just trying to find something better where you could come. It was hard to find a job back in Mississippi for no pay. Here you could actually make money where you could actually take care of your family, so I mean, something that was decent. They weren’t used to making this type of money that they were paying out here. I think that had a lot to do with it. Franklin: You mentioned earlier that your parents had come to the West Coast earlier, right? They-- Bell: Yeah, I think they went to, I think, originally, both of them—both sides of my family on my dad’s side and my mom’s side went to the shipyards in the Oregon/Vancouver area is where it seemed like all of them started there and then they shifted to Washington. Franklin: Okay. Do you know what specifically brought them out here? Was there a specific project, or-- was it Hanford or something--? Bell: I think it was cause of Hanford, because I’m sure that they’d already heard over there being on the shipyards that they were working here, they had dam work started, they had Hanford work, and a lot of those worked out here on these projects. Franklin: What do you know about their initial experience of coming to the Tri-Cities, working at Hanford and finding a place to live initially? Bell: I don’t know a lot, but I’ve heard stories that, like, I know when they came to work here, they had camps out here. So basically they had it set up where the women were in one camp and the men were in one camp. They didn’t let them go together, even though some of those were married, they couldn’t—they had women in one barracks. And I think mainly just Afro Americans that were segregated in that type of environment. But I don’t know a lot about it, just barely hearing little bit and pieces about it when I was growing up. And I confirmed it later on after I got a little bit older. Because I had some of the other people tell me that their parents were married, but they couldn’t stay together. They couldn’t have housing together. They just roomed them like that. Franklin: Okay. Did your parents ever talk about adjusting to the way of life here or their kind of experiences of what was different about this place and Mississippi? Bell: I don’t think they had a big adjustment as far as they were just treated a lot better, so I mean, you would actually be able to be a man and be able to work. I think to me—I’m just thinking at myself being so much younger, but I would think just being able to have the freedom to go out and work and choose what you can do, instead of somebody telling you what you can do or being limited of what you can and can’t do. You can’t buy land, or you can’t do this, or you can’t do that; where they had the freedom to—the doors were open to them a lot more by coming, getting out of the South and coming West. Franklin: What kind of jobs did your father’s—did the men of your father’s family have when they came out here? Bell: They were mainly farmers, sharecroppers. None of them really had—maybe bus driver. Franklin: I mean when they came out here; what kinds of jobs did they-- Bell: Like I said, they worked in the shipyards so I know they welded or learned how to weld. They probably were pretty adept at picking up what to do, so they probably done those little jobs on the shipyards, whether they worked on the ship or whether they was fortunate enough to be able to weld. I know my dad and my uncle both done tack welding and stuff, they had to have learned that somewhere I’m sure they didn’t get that in Mississippi. They didn’t learn it when they were there. Franklin: Did your dad and your uncle both work at Hanford at one point? Bell: Yes, my mom’s two brothers, and my dad, and my uncle worked at Hanford, yeah, at the same time. And they all worked in Portland, so at some point they all must have decided, it’s going to be a little bit better to come over here, and they decided to make their move to come this way. Most of them was here the whole time, never went anywhere else. Franklin: What kinds of jobs did they do out on the Site? Bell: Well, my uncle was a laborer. So most of them—the most money you were making at that time was if you was on the concrete crew. So probably whatever took to get to the concrete crew. They done miscellaneous things; digging ditches, doing whatever. But it seemed like the concrete was—if you could do concrete, any aspect of that concrete, being on that crew was the more money, seemed like. Franklin: Mm. And your father did the same? Bell: My father, my uncle, both my uncles, my dad’s brother and my mom’s brother, both of them. They all just, they done concrete. Franklin: What about your mother? Do you know what she did when she got here? Bell: My mom, when she got here, she worked. She didn’t come until a lot later. But she worked mainly in Pasco; she didn’t work in the Area. She worked in the potato sheds. And she went to CBC, got her degree over there. But she mainly worked at processing plants around here. Franklin: What did she get here degree in? Bell: I just think she took some general—she had eleven kids, so she just wanted to get some type of degree. So I don’t think it was specialized. I don’t know if it was childcare or something. She didn’t get it like in mathematics or accounting or nothing like that. I just think that she wanted to go to school. Franklin: Okay. Well, let’s talk about your experiences. When were you born? Bell: I was born on June 24, 1958. Franklin: Where were you born? Bell: In Pasco. Franklin: In Lourdes? Bell: Lourdes. Franklin: Our Lady of Lourdes. What was the housing like where you lived, where you grew up? Bell: Well, I grew up—we grew up in what they called Navy Homes, which is off of 4th Street between 4th and 1st. It must’ve been a big navy base back there at some point, because that housing was originally the naval base housing. That’s where I grew up. Franklin: What kind of houses were they? Bell: They were more like apartment set up type, but I think it would be a typical military base-type setup where they had long rows of houses that, I don’t know if they were two-bedroom, or one-and-a-half bedroom. I can’t really remember how big they were then, but I noticed everybody stayed in them. And it was probably cheaper to stay there, too. Franklin: Where they in east Pasco or in west Pasco? Bell: No, they were from west Pasco, this side, right next to the tracks. Franklin: Right next to east Pasco. Bell: So basically, right next to—yeah, if you went across the tracks, you were in east Pasco, basically. It’s that side. If you go down Court Street all the way ‘til you have to make that turn, everything on that side--all those things down there. They are a lot better now, that’s Navy Homes, what used to be Navy Homes to us and they still call it Navy Homes. But those aren’t the same houses. They tore those housing down; it’s a lot modernized now. Franklin: Oh, so that’s where, if you go down like you’re going to the railroad station, the Amtrak station. Bell: Mm-hmm. You got to make that turn to get down to that, but that curve and everything to the left used to be the old naval bases. They tore all that down and started building it better now. So it’s a lot better than what it was in the ‘50s, early ‘60s. Franklin: How long did your parents stay there? You said you had a big family. Bell: They weren’t all that big then, but, yeah, we stayed there, probably—we moved to east Pasco, I want to say, moved to east Pasco, maybe ‘65, ‘66, something like that. Franklin: What made your family move over to East Pasco? Bell: I don’t know, maybe wanting to get out of the Navy Homes. At some point, all these families lived in the Navy Homes and they were just trying to get out and form their own style away from Navy Homes, I think. Franklin: Were Navy Homes predominantly African American? Yeah? Bell: Yeah. Franklin: Was there kind of a community in the Navy Homes that you remember? Bell: Yeah, well, it was big enough to be a community. I don’t remember there being a store or nothing inside, but right on the corner of Lewis and 4th Street, you had a stores right there and stuff. Franklin: Mmkay. Where there many families with children or extended families such as grandparents? Bell: Yeah, I didn’t have no grandparents here, but there were families that had grandparents there, too. Franklin: How would you describe life in the Navy Homes in east Pasco? What did you do in your spare time? Bell: We just played, rode our bikes, ventured into—you had a lot of trains coming through there, so you had a lot of transients, so you had to watch out. But we never really worried about much. I guess we never had a real problem, even though we didn’t have a lot. But my mom would always put out stuff for the transient, which they called them hobos back then when we were little. But living that close to the tracks was pretty dangerous, too, though. Like I said, you had trains coming in all the time. I think the train thing was a big deal here, too. Eventually people, they went to Hanford for a little while but if they could work their way in, and some of the families ended up working for the railroad, too, which was another big job in this area, too. Franklin: Did your parents mention the danger of the trains to you or were they worried about-- Bell: Oh yeah. My mom was pretty strict, so, I mean, you had to stay in a certain area. You better not cross that line and get across that fence to get over to the tracks. Yeah, we didn’t get a chance to—Some kids, just like any kids, somebody going to go across that line and try to venture to see if they’re the first or the second people that can get over the tracks and not get in trouble. But so many people would see you, so I don’t know how you really would get away with it. Franklin: Right. Do you remember any particular community events in the African American community in Pasco? Bell: I can’t remember when the first time I saw Juneteenth, but they would always have—and then I didn’t know what Juneteenth—they probably had it then, saying it, but I didn’t really realize what it was. Because so many being from the South, that Juneteenth there was a big thing. But I don’t think it was a big thing for Pasco or for the people that lived in this community, even stretching to Richland, they just didn’t. It was just some from the South and eventually they ended up incorporating that to here. So I remember being at Kurtzman Park, every year there was some type of celebration going on down there. Franklin: That was a pretty important celebration for the black community? Bell: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. Did you attend church? Bell: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Bell: I attended the Church of God. Franklin: Okay. Bell: Which is not there no more, the original one—that’s what I was telling—it’s not there but it used to be off of Wehe. Franklin: Was that in east Pasco? Bell: East Pasco. Franklin: Okay, so your family made the trek over for--? Bell: I don’t think we really started going—I don’t remember going there when I was younger, but I’m sure we probably did. But then after we moved to east Pasco, it was right down the street from where we lived at. Franklin: What role did church play in the community? Bell: I think it kept everybody together and kept them updated on what was happening. Probably was one of the better areas to help people understand and how to get along with what was happening in this area too. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, that people brought with them from the places that they migrated from? Bell: I’m thinking, my mom and my aunt did chitlins and they came here, I know they grew their own black eyed peas and okra and stuff. All that stuff came from the South. It’s here now, but I don’t think it was here 70 years ago. I mean, maybe. I take that back. It could’ve been, because some of the Caucasian families are also from the South, from Alabama, or from Texas, or Mississippi, so it could’ve been, but I know that a lot of the families grew their own stuff; they still incorporated some of the stuff probably that they knew from when they were in the South. Franklin: Did you grow up eating what would be called comfort food or soul food? Bell: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. What kinds of meals would your mom make? Bell: My mom would cook collard greens, she’d cook mustard greens, she would cook black eyed peas, okra, a lot of fish, hot water cornbread, which nobody does that anymore. Franklin: What is that? Bell: Basically, its cornmeal that’s made up a little bit thicker. If you’re making cornbread it’ll be kind of runny, you pour it in the pan and then just cook it. But this would be a little thicker and they would pat it up into balls, would be about like that, and they were fried cornmeal, basically, but they called it hot water cornbread. My mom would make the hog’s head and make hog’s head cheese and make different stuff. Sweet potatoes was a big thing. My mom would make sweet potato pie and candied yams. She’s a good cook. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, it sounds like it. Were there any opportunities here that were not available where your parents came from? Bell: I think it was. The biggest thing is education. I mean, it starts with education. Franklin: Yeah. Did your parents talk about that ever? Bell: No, they didn’t really talk about it but when I’d done my research on our family reunion, I was able to realize that where my dad lived at, that school was there from—I mean, everybody went to that school, just one, Marion School. Just basically looked like a school on stilts and it seemed like a hundred years that same school and that’s where all the kids went to school at. Franklin: In Mississippi? Bell: This is was in Columbia Mississippi, Hood Mississippi. Franklin: Yeah. Bell: Just looking at that and then you look at the school—and I talked to some of my cousins that went to school down there and stuff. Just being able to get education was huge. Franklin: What about your own education? Did your parents impress the importance of education on you? Did they talk to you about it? Bell: Oh, yeah. My mom stressed it a lot, because I guess when you’re deprived of something; now, my mom went to school, but some of her brothers never did really get the chance to go because they worked in the field. They didn’t get that opportunity. The more kids you had, that’s more workers you had in the South, so they just didn’t. They was working all the time. They didn’t have time to go to school. Franklin: Do you know what grade levels your parents made it to? Bell: I don’t know about my dad. I don’t think my dad made it through school. But I know my mom, she might have got to high school, I’m not sure. I know she went through junior high; she might have went to high school, I never really got a chance to break that out. But I knew she went to school; I just don’t know how high she went. Franklin: Did they ever talk about the housing that they’d grown up in back in Mississippi and how housing was different here? Bell: No, they didn’t talk about it a lot, but, like I said, once I started researching and going in and looking, I could see that there wasn’t running water in the house, there was outhouses, there weren’t bathrooms in the house. Franklin: Did you or your parents ever go back to visit family in Mississippi? Bell: My mom went. But it’s astonishing how all my family members, everybody’s been in Mississippi. I haven’t been yet. They got a family reunion coming up in August and my sister, my oldest sister is 65. She lives in St. Louis and she wants to go there and my aunt just turned—my mom’s oldest sister that’s living. There was sixteen kids in my mom’s family, so the oldest sister that’s living, she just turned 93. Sunday or Monday. I’m going to surprise her and take her down. Franklin: Oh, she lives here? Bell: No, she lives in St. Louis. Franklin: Oh, in St. Louis. Bell: Yeah, they live in St. Louis. Franklin: Okay, wow, that’s a big family. Bell: All of my siblings have all been to Mississippi. I’m the only one that hasn’t, but-- Franklin: But you’re going? Bell: Yeah, I’ll be going, because I’ve been doing some research stuff. I got all this stuff on paper and pen and put it—made a CD of it, but I haven’t actually been there. So I need to go down there just so I can meet some of those people before they pass away or before I’m not here. But just to say that I did go to where my parents were born and grew up at. Franklin: Yeah, that’s great. Any notable interactions that your parents had with other people from the Tri-Cities area, from Richland or Kennewick? Did your parents go outside of Pasco much? Bell: I think they went outside, but most of their friends, most of them lived here unless they moved into Kennewick or into Richland. There wasn’t a lot of—when I was growing up, I don’t remember a lot of—there was very few black families in Kennewick or in Richland. There were some, but the predominant area was Pasco, was east Pasco. Franklin: What about you, when you were growing up as a kid or young adult, any notable interactions with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Bell: Yeah, I’m a people’s person anyways, so, yeah, I had friends that lived in Richland or from playing ball or in school. Franklin: Okay. Where’d you go to school? Bell: I started out at Captain Gray. Which is--they called it Captain Gray again, but the original place, they took it and made it into a—what do you want to call it?—a kindergarten center. And then Pasco High had all of that for a while and they made a new school, Rowena Chess, which is the old Captain Gray. Then after the high school got back, they turned that back into Captain Gray. So I went to Captain Gray for about a year. The second year, I went to Robert Frost. But Robert Frost didn’t have any black kids going there. At the time we went there, they started a little charter program. So they took four kids: me and my twin brother, and Sandra Allen and her brother. We were the first blacks to go to Robert Frost. Franklin: You were kind of a force of integration. Bell: Yeah, basically. And then the next year, they opened up every class. They brought in sixth graders, fifth graders, fourth graders, all the way down to first grade. But when we came there, we were the first. Franklin: Was there any resistance to your—any uncomfortable moments? Bell: I’m sure, yeah, there were. There were. Franklin: How did segregation or racism affect your education? Bell: It didn’t really affect mine, but I’m sure some Afro American kids, it did. My twin brother was totally different from me. I mean, he’d fight on the drop of a dime if anybody said something to him. You go to a school that is predominantly white, they’re going to test you and see what they can get you to do. My mom basically had to come live at that school pretty much because he was in so much trouble. Wasn’t totally his fault. Where me, I’m a duck. I let stuff—I listened to some of the stuff that my uncles had to go through and I said, this wasn’t nothing, really. I endured, it didn’t bother me. I knew who I was. So I could have gotten into a couple of fights, but I’ll never remember; I just would never let it instigate into fight for words. You had to almost put your hands on me for me to fight you. Franklin: But there was something there? Bell: Oh, yeah. It was something there; it was just how you had to adjust to it. And once they saw that you weren’t going to be rattled by that, I think they started—but then, once they integrated and brought it in, then it seemed like there were more fights then. Because then you got other people that didn’t want to tolerate somebody saying something to them that they didn’t like. Franklin: Right, because maybe they felt that now there were more blacks at the school, that they deserved more—they didn’t deserve that kind of treatment. Bell: The teachers started getting to the point that they had to change the attitude of some of those kids, too. Whether you like it or not, you’re going to have—these kids are going to be in here, and you’re going to have to get along with them. Franklin: What were some of the people that influenced you as a child? This could include family members, friends, teachers…? Bell: As a youngster coming up, I always looked at my uncles, because they were all workers. Maybe not well educated, but they were able to take care of their families. I thought that they’d done pretty well for themselves. Franklin: From working out at Hanford—they were laborers-- Bell: From working out at Hanford and I didn’t even—at the time, I was young, I didn’t even understand that side of it, I looked at my uncles, them going to work. Franklin: Providing for their families. Bell: Providing for their families. That’s what I looked at, I didn’t realize that Hanford was the big influence on it until I got a little bit older. But when I was younger, I idolized my uncles, my mom’s brothers. Franklin: What about when you were going through middle school, high school, I imagine that would’ve been—that’s coming off of a pretty tumultuous time in our nation’s history as far as civil rights were concerned. Where there any notable things that stand out to you, good or bad, from those times, the late ‘60s or early ‘70s? Bell: Well, I don’t remember totally, but I know at one point there was a big, big riot in east Pasco. I don’t remember the year. I know that riot was between the Black Panthers and some of the members that was and the Pasco Police Department. And that was right at Kurtzman Park, was where that riot was at. Franklin: Did the Panthers have an office in Pasco? Bell: I don’t know an office here, but I’m sure some of the guys were part of it. I think that’s what elevated that area. But I don’t know if they actually had an office here or if it was in Seattle or Portland. But I’m sure they had guys come from out of town that were influencers to try to get the black families the protection and the right they needed. Franklin: There were some pretty tumultuous times that—did you go to Pasco High. There were some pretty tumultuous times at Pasco High in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. Were you aware of any of that, or were you aware of that? Bell: I was probably too young. Because I didn’t go to Pasco High my first year. I went to Pasco High, wasn’t until ’76. So it was probably over by then. Franklin: Yeah. Let’s talk about, you graduated in high school and did you go to college? Bell: I didn’t go to college. I had scholarship opportunities, but I went to trade school. Franklin: Right, you mentioned that before we got the interview. Talk about your uncles—you were telling me about how your uncles asked you to be a laborer, but you got the opportunity to be a pipefitter. I’m wondering if you could retell that story. Bell: Okay. Well, most of the males, the black males, were laborers: my twin brother is a laborer, all of my cousins are laborers. So all of them went that route. But when I was in eight grade I already knew I wanted to be a pipefitter then. Franklin: Why? Bell: I’d done some research on it, and it was just something I liked. So when I was in school, I knew I had to know enough math. I liked math anyway, so it would work right into my—I set myself to be a pipefitter, basically. I got out of high school I was an insulator for the summer. Which they paid great. I had a summer job making $1.75 cleaning the marble in the court house. One of the guys, one of the vans that was a pipefitter, he was the one who told me his going to help get in to the Pipefitter’s. But he helped me get as an insulator that summer. Franklin: Out where? Bell: I worked at 100 N. But I went from making $1.75 to making $11.25 an hour. Franklin: Wow, that’s a big, that’s like a tenfold increase. Bell: Within a week we got a $1.25 raise. But that was a good job and they wanted to keep me because they didn’t have many blacks in Insulators’. But I had already had my mind made up to what I wanted to do. They’d tell me they’d give me every opportunity to be an insulator if I would take it. I mean, I was already in. But I wanted to be a pipefitter, so that’s what I wanted to stick with. Franklin: What kind of work, can you describe that job, insulator, what kind-- Bell: They were tearing down stuff and redoing, putting different types of insulation applications on beams and stuff. I think I was nineteen when I was doing that. Franklin: Okay, wow. When did you join the Pipefitters’ or how did that happen? Bell: I joined the Pipefitters’—I got into the Pipefitters’ a year later. And actually I didn’t get in, they took me in as a pre-apprentice. Franklin: What does that mean? Bell: Pipefitters’ is one of the biggest unions around here, and what they wanted to do is stop people that weren’t in the union from touching their pipe. But they didn’t want to take their apprentices to do it. So, I wasn’t apprentice, but I still was in the union. If we’re working on the job and they need to touch the pipe or roll the pipe, they don’t want those guys to roll the pipe or do anything. As a pre-apprentice I could touch the pipes. So if an engineer needed to see the number off the pipe or whatever, I was the one to get that number for them instead. Because they were really strict on possession of touching their pipe or moving their pipe. The union was really huge around here, and Pipefitters’ is one of the strongest unions there was around here, actually, in the whole United States. Franklin: Where did you work as a pipefitter? Bell: As a pipefitter, actually I worked all over the country. But out here, I worked--I started out working, they were building the power plants out there, the WPPSS Plants. I started building them from scratch. Franklin: Wow. 1 and 2? Bell: 2 was already—I worked on 2, too. 2 was the first one, but 1 and 4, those are the three we have out here. 1 and 4, and 2; and 3 and 5 was out by Satsop, by Tacoma. Those are the five nuclear powerhouses. Franklin: You worked on 1 and 4 until the project shut down? Bell: I worked on 1 and 4 until they were just about getting ready to come off the ground, and then I was moved over to number 2 and then I stayed in number 2 until they went online. Franklin: Cool. What kind of on-the-job training did you receive for pipefitting? Bell: Pipefitting, the way it’s set up, you worked on a day, 40 hours, and you had a journeyman showing you what to do. But at night, we went to school at night. Franklin: Okay. Where did you go to school? Bell: Pipefitters are right here, right off the highway, right off of 28th Street. Franklin: What kind of training—like, what kind of school was it? Could you describe that? Bell: It was top-of-the-line, they had blueprint reading, they had welding, they had tube bending, they had plumbing code. It was actually top-of-the-line school. Franklin: You’d mentioned earlier, before the interview, that your uncles had said, oh, you can come be a laborer, but they told you that, when you got the offer for the Pipefitters’, they told you to take that. I’m wondering if you could describe that? How come you— Bell: My uncle was smart. He knew that type of work doing as a laborer was really, really strenuous work. But he also knew that the Pipefitters’ paid more, too. Franklin: So he pushed you to-- Bell: He knew that I already wanted to be, but I hadn’t got in yet. So that’s the other deal. If I hadn’t got in, he’d say, well, you know what? You can be a laborer and then later on if you still get in there, you’d have two trades. Franklin: Cool. Could you describe a typical workday as a pipefitter? Bell: A typical workday, depending on where you was, you were probably working out somewhere where there wasn’t a bathroom and everything was pretty much outhouses, because we built these buildings and once they were built then maintenance took over and we were gone. You’d be out in the Area, out working somewhere. It’s 100 in the summertime out here. Back then it’d hit 130, 140 out in the areas, so that’d one work day. But then if your—typical day when you’re working out on the WPPSS Plant, you’d be out there building this plant or building two plants. Get probably there by 7:30; the work’s done by 3:30, 4:00 at the latest. You’re working with a journeyman is showing you how to put in pipes, put in hangers. You’re working anywhere from 30-inch pipe to half-inch pipe, quarter-inch pipe, depending on what you’re working on. Piping—in pipefitting, you can’t do anything, you can’t have a building or anything without pipefitting because all your hydraulics for your heating and cooling, your water, you got to have a bathroom for every facility. You really can’t get away with—there’s just so much work for pipefitters. Franklin: Did you acquire any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Bell: I’d say yes. Again, you learn to adjust to people, because—I told you when we were younger, when we went to Robert Frost, I was egged on with name calling to see how you would react. Well, being a pipefitter, there wasn’t that many blacks in the pipefitting around here. Trying to get in and get yourself in, a lot of people didn’t really want to show you anything, so you had to show them why you was worthy of them showing you how to be the person you could show. It took, it was education going through there, because that was a new testing ground, too. Franklin: Yeah. How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and with your supervisors? Bell: I got along real well. I just had a few incidents where I ran into problems, but it was just because, as an apprentice, it’s a pushy business. If you’re the journeyman, you can do all these little tricks to the lower person. Where, when I turned to be a journeyman, I said, no, I’m stopping it. Anything that’s done wrong or a cycle that’s bad, at some point somebody has to step in and break that cycle. When I went through all that different stuff that people done to me, different tricks; when I got to be out, I didn’t want to teach, I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to change that. Because you’ve got people coming in that’s first-year, second-year apprentice, they’re 30, 25 years old, they have a wife and kids. Even though I’m younger and I’m a journeyman, you got people coming in that’s already grown men. You can’t treat them like that, or at least that’s how I saw it. A lot of those guys, well, they did it to me; I’ma do it to y’all. That mentality. I said, no, just-- Franklin: Sorry. What kinds of tricks and things? Bell: Oh, sending you out for crazy stuff, where they’d send a guy for a bucket of tack welds. A tack weld is something you start a weld with. But if you don’t know and you’re inexperienced, you’re going out and you go all these different places telling them you need the stuff and everybody know that they’re playing a joke on you. But you don’t know it yet. So you’re walking around asking. I say, you got to be smarter than that, kid. You can’t let nobody just do you like that. So I’d fill them in on, just think about it. What is a tack weld? Well, the welder. Well, then, how you think they’re going to get you a bucket of tack weld? Don’t go asking something crazy like that, because everybody is laughing at you. But once you prove yourself then those guys actually help you a lot. But it’s like initiation, I guess, it would be like if you were in college, it’s initiation. They would play tricks on you or play different pranks on you and make you do stupid stuff. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? You mentioned there weren’t many African Americans in the Pipefitters’. So I’m wondering if you think race ever played a role in any treatment. Bell: It could have played some in it, but there was enough there that anytime you’re dealing with starting out new or trying to get a venture to go, the best you can be is going to let the ground work. So my whole thing is, I need to be the best I can be. I have to be better than what I could be, because I need somebody to follow behind me to be pipefitters to be younger black pipefitters that follow behind me. So I wanted to blaze a trail and I think that’s what I’ve done, because I ended up being an instructor for thirteen years. So I took it serious. I didn’t take no time off to mess around. Everything I’ve done from day one was totally serious and to be the best that I could be every day. Franklin: What kind of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Bell: I’d say a lot of my friends are still best friends, still do stuff. Franklin: Could you describe the working conditions? Bell: Depending on what job you were on, sometimes they were bad, sometimes it’s like anything else. They want to cut corners on not doing certain stuff right. There’s certain times where you should have your safety glasses on, have your safety equipment where they say tell you, oh, go ahead. We don’t have that; we’ll get it later on. In construction, there’s a lot of deaths in construction, but one thing that people got to really look at is your safety. People say, get your safety glasses on and there’s people walking around with no safety glasses on. If something hits you in the eye and puts your eye out, it’s not going to hurt your supervisor. It’s not going to hurt the owner of the job. Franklin: Right. Bell: Put your hardhat on. That hardhat, if something falls down, I’m a construction guy. A lot of them say, well, he making us do all these things that, they’re not making you do anything; actually, all those things will save your life. That’s how I looked at it. If you had to have safety glasses, wear your safety glasses, they’re for a reason. But so many of the guys wanted to rebel and not wear—well, I don’t need a hardhat, the hardhat is too heavy, it hurts my neck, it does this, it does that. But there’s so many accidents and deaths on a construction job, too. A lot of injuries. Franklin: A lot of preventable injuries? Bell: A lot of them were preventable, some of them not preventable. You can get hurt on a construction job and do everything right. Working on the shipyards or something like that, somebody drops something. You don’t have to do nothing wrong. Somebody drops something from 40 feet up, it bounces around and hits you and kills you or maims you. Some stuff, it’s a construction job. There’s so much danger involved in it. But if it’s done right it don’t have to be. Franklin: Right. What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Bell: I think the biggest deterrent was working with people that really didn’t want to work. It just put too much pressure on the other people that have to work double to make the deadlines, make stuff happen. Most of the jobs were great and paid great, but there was so much of a turn around because those people didn’t want to pull their—they wanted the money but they really didn’t want to put in to make the money. Franklin: What do you recall about working at any of the reactors or any of the other buildings that are still on the Site today? Bell: Well, most of them are pretty much gone. I worked at 100 N. I was sort of petrified when I went out there because you heard all those stories about radiation and I thought I’d stepped into this little area and I’m in this, like, this warped time zone and you stepped in the zone and there’s radiation everywhere. But it wasn’t like that; it was like being out there, being in one of this rooms, you might have a source that has radiation, but it’s not everywhere. And it’s pretty much contained, too. But not going out there, you have fear and you hear all those horror stories. And I hear people talk today, oh, can you take your shoe off? Is your foot green? Or, we’ve heard after you work out there so long you’re going to turn glowing. You hear all these different stories, but once you work out there, you realize it’s just a myth. There is stuff that you can get into if you don’t do it right or don’t put your protective stuff on. You’re in radiation, yeah, you can get hurt bad. But there is safety measures that’ll take care of you, if you use what’s set up. Franklin: Besides N and the WPPSS reactors, what other buildings did you work at? Bell: I worked at all these Battelle buildings out here, too, which is a little bit different because it is a maintenance program. It’s a national laboratory, so they have different jobs, different projects, they work on different stuff. Battelle is an amazing place, some of the stuff that those guys come up is just ingenious. Franklin: Yeah, they have a lot of different contracts and projects going on. Anything else out on Site that you remember? Maybe anything like the 300 or 200 Areas? Bell: I was based out of 350, so. But working maintenance for Battelle, they had me go in the Area. I worked the weather station for them, all those buildings. Battelle is the only building out here that the Hanford Fire Department don’t do all the fire systems, the suppression systems, they do all their own. When I started at Battelle in ’96, they sent me to Oklahoma City to get certified to do these systems. Battelle do their own systems. Everybody else out there, the Hanford Fire Department does all of the systems. In our buildings that we needed our inspections or that we had to go and do stuff for them, the fire department would show up, but actually Battelle Pipefitters’ done all the work. Franklin: Oh, okay, interesting. How did your racial background fit into your work experience? And experiences on the job? Bell: It didn’t really, it didn’t really. Most people, once they met me, I didn’t really have a problem. There was some people that might’ve had a racial deal towards me, but once they saw my work ethics and what I’d done and how I didn’t let nothing bother me, they just went away. I never really had a problem on the job, racial problem on the job. If there was some saying, somebody else would get upset about it, and they’d say, well—they’d bring me in the office—they’d say, hey, you want to make a complaint about this person? I’d say, for what? Well, they say somebody said this. I said, listen I’m old enough to take care of myself, if I have a problem with somebody, I’ll take it. I don’t need somebody else to step in and say, somebody said this or somebody said this, or this guy ought to be fired. It’s just, you need to take care of your own stuff. So a lot of people get politically stuck on that, and that’s where you run into a big problem. I’m not there to be a divider; I’m trying to always get along and do our job to the best we could do. Franklin: In what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Bell: It really didn’t. A lot of that stuff was secret for a reason. If you’re working on something for the military, because when you’re working out there, you’re working on different projects, even at Battelle. Most of my stuff I could go home and say stuff about, but some of the stuff I worked at as a pipefitter, they were working on sensitive stuff here. So when I went in you had a guard with you all the time. Not that—but they were just protecting stuff that they had. Because some of this guys are working on military stuff out there, too. A lot highly sensitive that I didn’t have a clearance for, see, that’s the other deal. I had a clearance, but I didn’t have the top clearance to be able to be here, what if I open this drawer here and I’m into already top secret stuff or I got into his computer over here, I’m already on top secret stuff that I’m not supposed to be. Franklin: How did you feel at the time when you were out on Site about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Bell: I don’t think I ever really thought about it. I just thought about it, I was one player with a team doing a job. I never thought about it as making weapons for this or that. Franklin: How do you feel now about those experiences? Bell: It still don’t change me a lot, just because a lot of that stuff was necessary to protect most people in the United States. I don’t think it really fazed me that much. Franklin: What do you think was the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Bell: I think being able to protect the United States. Because Hanford was just one—a lot of people think that all this stuff was all only Hanford. When you think about it the Manhattan Project, a lot of people don’t understand there was more than one place, because—I think the smartness of that, if Hanford was the only place they could’ve just attacked Hanford at one time. But being that they were in New York, they were in Los Alamos. They were separated four or five different spots to make all this stuff come together; it wasn’t one spot. Franklin: Okay. What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Bell: Only from my family and different people, I just, growing up in Pasco I knew there was a lot of Afro Americans that worked out here. What jobs they did, I wasn’t sure, but I think a lot of them were laborers. I think the basic job was laborer. You did have some skilled workers, some electricians, some pipefitters, very few insulators, maybe one or two boilermakers. But predominantly laborers, I believe. And then later on, different—you started getting educated people coming out here from the South and different stuff, coming up to Battelle as interns, coming out to be engineers or different things. Franklin: From your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the area work, community life and civil rights? Bell: Whose? Franklin: The African Americans, the prior African American workers form the Manhattan Project on to when you started? Bell: I just think lot of those turned out to be pillars of the community, lived to be in their 80s and 90s, that worked out there and still able to pass that on to the younger generations some of the stuff that had happened out there, specially to family members. I think what was shared most. I don’t think we shared a lot just openly with everybody, but they let their families know. And there was enough of them working in the same area that most our uncles or dads or stuff worked out there, or grandads, or great-grandfathers worked out there in some cases. Franklin: What were they major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during the time here? Bell: I think just trying to get equality was the biggest thing. And even though you weren’t in the South, they had problems here too, because I just think a lot of the stuff was hid a lot more than it was in the South. I think in the South they were just straight out front; wasn’t none of it hid. But you still have problems here with racism, too. It just-- Franklin: How did those problems manifest themselves? What kind of specific problems did you know that the community was facing here? Bell: Just not being treated totally equal through the police department. It took a while to get some changes to make stuff change around here. Just to be stopped for no reason or pulled over for no reason or if you got a new car, how did you get a new car? Are you a drug dealer? That stereotype, if you got something good you couldn’t have worked for it. Which, in some case they might’ve been right, but probably 90% of the perception was wrong. Franklin: What about housing issues? Do you remember hearing much about that? Bell: Yeah. It’s the same thing when you start dealing with housing. You weren’t offered a house if you were just a normal person in Richland or Kennewick. But if they knew you had a good job and you had the money, like me, I was a pipefitter. I wanted a house in Pasco and they were telling me, there’s no good houses in Pasco. Or the realtor would take you to a bad house in Pasco, something that nobody would want to live in. That’s why you need to get a house in Richland, Kennewick. I go, I don’t need to get a house in Richland, Kennewick. I want a house in Pasco and if you can’t find me one, I’ll build one. It was just trying to push you out of Pasco to try to get over. Because basically they wanted your money is what I thought. You’re making money you should be where all the people that make money at. But I grew up right here. Franklin: Did you know much about the segregation of east Pasco from the west, or the prohibitions of blacks living in Kennewick? Bell: I don’t know when the first blacks lived in Pasco, but I mean, for a long time when I was a youngster you couldn’t be caught. That bridge over here, the blue, new, bridge now, but it used to be a green bridge and there was a sign over there for many years. I don’t remember what year they took it out, but it basically said, you better not be caught after sundown. So Kennewick was a hard place to be at. Didn’t hear a lot about Richland, but Richland had their sides about them too. They didn’t put up any signs or nothing like that, but when you came through, you definitely get pulled over, or if you was in the wrong area, for some reason the police would show up and want to know why you’re over here, do you have a reason for being over here? You didn’t have the leeway of going wherever you wanted to go. You’re out of place, it looked like, so someone would call the police and say, we have these kids in the area, what are they doing over here? Even though we were there to visit a friend. Franklin: Did that happen? Bell: It did happen. Franklin: When did that happen? Bell: I had that happen to me probably when I was in junior high school. Franklin: Really? Do you remember who you were visiting? Bell: I don’t remember at the time who I was visiting, but like I said, even today, even today if I was in an area, a big area, just driving around looking at houses, I might want to buy one, somebody might make a phone call. Franklin: Could you describe that situation, the event? Like, how large was your group and were you just visiting someone? Bell: Yes. I don’t know who was going over to play ball or what, but I remember that we had got over there and all of a sudden a police officer came up. And some of the guys were wanting to get mouthy. And I said, no, no, just let me talk to them, okay? Let me talk to them. You don’t want to get into an argument because then you are escalating the situation, so then the police officers say something to you and somebody says something back and leads to something else. Somebody’s pushed so you push an officer, and now we are all going to jail. I said listen, do we have the right to be in Richland? Because if we don’t, you guys need to tell us that we can’t come to Richland. Well, no one said you can’t; we’re just trying to figure out what you’re doing in this area. Well, we’re visiting somebody. I’m a diplomatic person, I try to get them say why I can’t be there. Try to get them to say, well, somebody called and you don’t fit in this area, why are you in this area? Franklin: What was the resolution of that incident? What happened? Bell: He let it go. Because I talked to him calm enough. Now, if I’d have argued with him, what’s your business? Why you asking me where I’m going? Do you ask everyone else that comes? See, if I say something to him like that then he has the reason to say that we have no reason being over there. Or we just had someone broke in over here; was you guys are involved in? So even if it wasn’t nothing, that’s the scenario you would get hit with, so you just keep yourself out of those positions. That’s how I teach my kids, too. Stay out of those confrontational deals if you don’t have to be. You be the bigger person. You can intelligently say something to him to let him know. Did I do anything wrong, officer? This road did come into this town and these streets go to these different houses. If there’s certain stuff we shouldn’t be, or we’re not allowed to go into this town, then y’all need to post that. Then he takes it form there and says, no, these guys aren’t doing anything there. I gave them enough stuff to put him in a position that he’s either going to tell me I can’t be in this town or—so he just let us go. Franklin: Right on. With the civil right issues that we just talked about, what actions were being taken to address those issues? Bell: I think they were trying to do stuff through the city council. But with us, we weren’t doing it in Richland or Kennewick because we didn’t live there. There wasn’t enough there to be done in their towns. Franklin: What about in Pasco? Bell: In Pasco, I know they had problems, but I know through the city council and through different church groups they got a lot of that turned around. Franklin: Who were some of the important leaders of civil rights efforts and that in Pasco? Bell: I think, Reverend Allen was one of them. There were a couple of them back then, I don’t remember who all of their names were. But a lot of them were from, preachers from the church. Reverend Bond. Most of them were probably church clergy, because they were at a point where they could handle both sides without—getting them to come in, they were from the clergy, so pretty much they had to talk to them. That always seemed like, even if you look at, today is 50 years ago that Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis, a minister. Through the black communities, through civil rights, no matter Pasco or wherever in the United States, it’s been pretty much the clergy that’s been the backbone of that. Franklin: What were some of the notable successes in civil rights efforts in Pasco? Bell: Oh, I just think that getting jobs, getting different people into positions on the police department. Back then, I don’t think they had no blacks. I can’t remember the first year they had a black police officer. And you have seen that evolution over the years happen. I think a lot of that has changed a lot of stuff. As a matter of fact, even with the Hispanic in the police department is--because I remember when I was growing up there was no color at all in the police department, that I can remember. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges for civil rights efforts in Pasco? Bell: I think just trying to get a foothold. Doing civil rights when you don’t have that many people. I don’t know what the breakdown on population, but as the years that went on that numbers got closer and closer. When you only have a small group and then everybody don’t think the same. If you got a small group, you got to pretty much be tightknit group to stay together and make everything going, but if you got half believing it and half not, you’re already divided, so it’s easy for them to conquer you. But that would probably be the big deal. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Bell: I’d say probably not. I mean, I think my contribution now would be the work I do now. I started a mentor program at Stevens. I’m just trying to get some of these youngsters to understand how to get along in America today. Franklin: What kind of challenges are kids facing these days? Bell: Well, our kids, some of them just don’t understand. Well, education has got to be that big thing. It just seems like it’s dropping off of our kids and I don’t know why, because you can’t do nothing without education. And just trying to make them understand that if you don’t have education you’re not going to be able to do anything. You ain’t going to be able to take care of your family, you’re not going to be able to take care of your parents. That job, when I started out working, I didn’t have any kids or wife, so I was able to help my mom out. And a lot of kids don’t have that, they don’t have that sense of family. My mom they worked, they helped. My wife’s family—my wife’s full-blooded Mexican—her dad worked here and sent money home to his mom in Mexico. That type of family knit. Some of these kids they just don’t have it, they don’t understand what their grandparents, great-grandparents went through, the trailblazers for them to do and now it just seems like it’s easier, they don’t care what—I cared about that. I’m a history buff, so I cared about all that stuff. And just trying to get these kids to understand that if you don’t understand where you came from, how do you know where you going? A lot of them, they just don’t care, or don’t want to know. Your grandmother worked all these hours to put stuff on your back, help your mom. They just don’t care. It’s like there is no appreciation for it these days. I think that’s the big downside for us. No appreciation of what was done before to get you where you at. I mean, we shouldn’t be going backwards. We should be going forward. And I think it’s too much going backwards, on our part, now. On other parts, too, but I can’t—we can’t worry about other parts. You only can only worry about what you do and we should be progressing. Franklin: When you say we, do you mean the black community? Bell: The black community. Not the ones that was out there. I’m talking about the youngsters that’s coming up. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the future. I’m 60, so I’m looking at these kids that, first graders that—start having a sense of what you want to do, start understanding what history was about, start understanding art history, too. That’s the big part. I didn’t grow up in Mississippi. I didn’t have to endure none of that. But from my parents and my grandparents, I have learned that was something I didn’t want to do. Franklin: Right, right. You feel your quality of life was better because your parents had left that system-- Bell: My quality of life was great because of what they went through. Franklin: Yeah. When did your work at Hanford come to an end, and what did you do afterwards? Bell: My Hanford work stopped about nine years ago. I left Hanford on a medical disability nine years ago, on the 22nd of this month. Franklin: Oh, okay. What did you do afterwards? Bell: I haven’t done much, really, other than I do some mentoring, I’m on the School Board Builders in Pasco for looking at schools out—they call it the Pasco Builders. Just doing stuff in the community over there. I’m working in east Pasco with the three elementary schools and the junior high over there, trying to get the voting for the Hispanic families that’s over there, trying to get them to get more of a weigh-in on voting over there. Most of the stuff I’m doing over there, even though east Pasco doesn’t have that many Afro-American families over there, I’m still a product of east Pasco, so I’m still trying to do everything I can to make east Pasco part of Pasco. Franklin: I wanted to ask you about that, because it seems like you’re kind of in an interesting transitional place, where you had grown up—when you grew up, East Pasco was primarily African American. And now Pasco has changed—Franklin County itself has changed, to be majority-Hispanic. And you mentioned earlier you’re married to a full-blooded Hispanic woman. It seems like your family is kind of emblematic of that transition. How has east Pasco changed since you were a kid and is it still facing some of the same issues? Bell: It’s still facing some of the same issues just because east Pasco is left out, I feel. Until Pasco can pull east Pasco into Pasco—because you still have that dividing line. The underpass and the railroad tracks is a dividing line; until they can ever just pull that together—I don’t know how much success they can have if they have ever done that. Because then you’re including everybody, not just part of the people. When we were there, that’s what it was then, too. So it never did change. And now we’re 60 years later from when I was born, you still have the same transition. I mean, it’s a little bit better, because there’s four schools over there. When I was growing up there was only one school over there. Franklin: Which school it that? Bell: Whittier. But it’s burnt down. The original Whittier, the one that was built in 1911. Franklin: Wow. How has the community changed in east Pasco? What’s the makeup of the community now? Bell: In east Pasco? Franklin: Yeah. Bell: It’s predominantly Hispanic. I’d say 85%, 90%. There’s still some black families over there in the same area where I grew up at. That corner over there probably has the majority of African Americans around Kurtzman Park. Franklin: Where do you live now? Bell: I live off of Road 50. Franklin: Okay, so kind of in west. Bell: West, yeah. That used to be the country, but now—because Pasco stopped at 395. And then, as they kept moving it back, now Pasco is all the way to Road 100. You still have cows and little farms where they can still have animals because they’re grandfathered in. Road 32 was the country when I was growing up. That’s how far Pasco’s grown, and how big it’s gotten. Franklin: Yeah, it really has pushed out, sprawled out. You mentioned that you had not just worked at Hanford when you were a pipefitter; you had moved, you had worked around a lot of different places. Bell: Because I was a construction pipefitter. Franklin: What other kinds of places did you work? Bell: I left here when the work stopped. In construction, usually, there’s a ten-year phase, West Coast/East Coast. Well, when we graduated, before the WPPSS project got into problems—if they would have stayed online and done what they were supposed to do, we were supposed to have 50 years of work out here. I was supposed to never ever left here. I just barely graduated and all the work went away in construction. I went to New Jersey and worked. Worked on an ore refinery in New Jersey. Franklin: Oh, wow. How were your experiences in other places different from the Tri-Cities? Bell: Oh, I wouldn’t say truly different. It’s just adjustments. When you go to the city, or you go to the country—amazingly, a lot of my friends that’s here, they worked in South Carolina and stuff in the South, they just picked those spots. I never worked in the South. Philadelphia might’ve been as far south as I—and that’s not the South. I worked in Philadelphia, I worked in New Jersey, I worked in Ohio, I worked in New York, in different projects. Franklin: Mid-Atlantic area? But pretty significant African American communities in a lot of those places. Bell: Oh yeah. If you get in those places there, you’re—yeah. Franklin: What kind of work and housing, and social opportunities were available to you when you were working in the East Coast? Bell: It was easy for me because I had the money. When you got the resources of money, but you’re living in Philadelphia and in those inner-cities where the money level is not real high for the minorities. Franklin: Yeah. What surprised you about when you left Tri-Cities and you were working in the Mid-Atlantic area, what surprised you about the African American experience there? Bell: Well, I guess the biggest thing would be the way of life. A lot of them lived in which would be projects. I guess if you compare their projects to us, it probably would’ve been when we lived in the Navy Homes, type of deal. But just, there’s so many families running that same cycle. Nobody getting out or breaking out. I think if I lived there for a long time, I’d have to break out, even if I didn’t know what I was doing, or didn’t know what was ahead of me. But just staying in the area doing the same routine. The grandparent to the kids to the grandkids, everybody—nobody leaves, they’re all in the same area, for the most part. So just getting out and doing something different. I’ve always been the person to want to do my own thing, not I follow what somebody else done. Franklin: What challenges did you encounter, if any, working out there? Bell: Working away from Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Bell: Not really a lot of challenges. I guess a lot of people were amazed at my skill level. But I wasn’t, because I was trained at one of the best facilities in the world. People say—you’re working on a job and say they’re laying off this person, this black electrician, or this black pipefitter got laid off, why didn’t they lay you off? I go, I don’t know. I’m here every day, I know what I’m doing, I’m on the job a half an hour before the job starts. I don’t know what kind of answer to give you to that. I’m 3,000 miles away from home; I have to be my best. I can’t come in here be off today, miss tomorrow. They looking for somebody to be here every day and that’s all I’ve been used to, is going to work every day. So no matter where I go that challenge never hits me. When you’re working in the city and stuff, you have people missing three days a week or coming in late every day. If I was a boss, I wouldn’t allow that. That’s why I always flip to them, if you were the boss, would you allow somebody to come into your job late every day or miss two or three days? You got a deadline to get this project done. Franklin: Yeah. In what ways did your experience at Hanford affect your outlook on issues of racial discrimination and civil rights in the United States at that time? Bell: I don’t think I really looked at it that way. It was enough people still working out there that got a chance to—and the ones that didn’t stay is because of something they’d done. I didn’t see none of those jobs lost on a racial bias. I thought most of them was done because of something what the person had done. They either had a bad enough accident that got them in trouble or they kept compoundly doing stuff that they were told not to do. It wasn’t—I didn’t look at this being that they just got fired for the color of their skin. They were just as good, but they got fired for the color of their skin, I never saw that out there. Franklin: Were you involved in any civil rights activities after leaving Tri-Cities? Bell: No. Franklin: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Bell: For me living, like I said, I’ve lived all over the country, but I love this area. It’s a great area, you have four seasons, we can grow anything we want here, we have actual summertime. I lived in New York and, I mean, if they got 40 degrees, that was their summer, 40 degrees. That was hot to them. They all probably couldn’t make it from where I’m from. To me, it’s a great area to grow your kids up in, you don’t have to worry about a lot of stuff. It’s almost a perfect setting to live in the Tri-Cities, even opposed to Seattle. This area is just—and you had the work here, you have the education here, you got this WSU campus here, the big campus isn’t that far away. I just think it’s the ideal area and there’s nowhere else in the United States I’d rather live. And I‘ve moved around and stayed other places, but I always kept Pasco as my base. Even when I lived in New York and New Jersey and Philadelphia for two years, I still had Pasco as my base. I was just working a job, just because I couldn’t work here. Franklin: Yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights, and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Bell: No, I just think with my uncles coming out here and my dad coming out here and paving that way for me, gave me—if they never came out here, I wouldn’t have got a chance to probably be the person I am. I probably would’ve changed in some other way if I had to grow up in Mississippi. I thank God that they had the fortitude of when they got to the age that they could leave, they left, and open this opportunity for me and my other siblings to do some of the stuff we wanted to do in life. Get that equal opportunity. That’s all you ever ask for, is an equal opportunity and I think them making that move gave me the opportunity to be the man I am today. Franklin: Great, well, Donald, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us. Bell: Thank you for having me. Franklin: All right. Bell: All right. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-N WPPS Battelle Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1958- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1976-2009 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald Bell, Sr. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Segregation School integration Civil rights movements Racism Description An account of the resource Donald Bell, Sr. was born in 1958 in Pasco, Washington and worked on the Hanford Site from 1976-2009. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/04/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1d5969a330cb013c8521d026d6a68ce7.jpg ff47ac81d5d3ce2033875e79427a831e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa095b818f272c3b2d8dd709637b8ca33.mp4 f43df0e60028bddc39358f58d28dc8cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donna Jackson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Northwest Public Television | Jackson_Donna </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Robert Bauman: Okay. Why don't you go ahead and state your name first. Donna Jackson: My name is Donna Jackson. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: Okay. And my name's Robert Bauman and Donna Jackson will be telling us some stories. Today is July 16, 2013 and this is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So at this point I'll turn over to you Donna, and go ahead and tell your stories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. I'm going to tell you a story about John and Mary. They and their four kids lived in the Midwest. They had family working at Hanford and came west to join them in 1946. Now when there is a housing shortage, private citizens try to fill the need and make some money. John and Mary found housing at what is now called Columbia Park. A man named Garst had a cherry orchard and he put up tents and shacks to rent. Mr. Paulson had a farmhouse just west of that and he divided his land into Paulson’s Plats and built small houses on it to rent or sell. The businesses that were in that area at that time were Wild Bill's Garage, Sherry's Groceries, and there was a drive-in theater and a tavern. John and Mary bought one of Paulson's three-room houses and they bought three extra lots for a total of $1,600. Actually, it was a two bathroom house. There were three rooms, plus a small bathroom with a shower stool and sink, but built on the outside of the house was a small concrete block washroom with a laundry tub, space for a washing machine and a toilet. You had to go outside to get to it, but actually this turned out to be quite convenient. When more of their family arrived in the area, they set up tents and they had a toilet available for their use, and it was handy for the kids, too, because they didn't have to come in the house. There were about eight houses in Paulson’s Plats and several of the families living there wanted to grow a garden and tried, but it just didn't work. The canal was south of them and so much water seeped into their yard that nothing would grow. Now John and Mary lived there two years before the big flood of 1948. Being right on the river they were flooded out. They moved into a tent on what is now Highway 12. Each morning they would get up and look over to see what things were like where their house was. One morning, they found their very own icebox had floated loose and right up to the bank below where they were camped. John fished it out, cleaned it up, and they could use it again. During this time, they would go to a washateria. They would wash their clothes and hang them on the bushes to dry. Mary would rent an iron long enough to press three shirts, which would get John through a week's work. Nothing else would be ironed because of the cost of renting the iron. Now when they were there in Paulson’s Plats, there was ice delivery for their icebox. But there wasn't any ice delivery in town because nobody was allowed to go into town, no deliveries of any kind. As Mary said, they just didn't, but they were afraid people would blab about what was going on. Well the water finally receded and they went out to check their house. There were big holes in the walls, the wood flooring had come off and washed down the river, presumably into the Pacific Ocean. The kitchen floor didn't come loose because the wood stove was heavy enough to keep it in place. Mary's dad and the Red Cross came to help put in new wallboard and flooring so they could move back into their house. Another problem during the time of the flood was getting to work at Hanford. At that time, the bridge across the Yakima was down at river level, and during the flood, no one could cross it. John had a ride that would take him going up across the Horse Heaven Hills and around. One day, he missed his ride and had to fly to work. He walked a mile south to the airport, and for $3 could catch a plane that would take him across the river. A shuttle would meet the plane and then take the folks on out to work. When John and Mary got back into their house, they had a problem with drinking water. They had a 100 foot well and after the flood, the water was not drinkable. John pumped the well out and poured a gallon of Clorox down it. He repeated the process nine times before the water was safe to drink. One weekend, the family went on a road trip the Yakima. Mary left her purse at a stop and they didn't miss it for ten miles. They were absolutely sick when they figured it out. They had to go back and get it since all their ration coupons were in it, as well as their money. It added another 20 miles to their trip, and they didn't think they had enough gas to get home and the gas stations wouldn't sell to them after hours. Well, they went back, got her purse, and headed to Richland and sure enough, they ran out of gas. They sat there bundled up and cold and finally a trucker stopped. He was going to get gas someplace because they would sell to trucks after hours and he said he'd come back and help them. When he finally returned, he said give me your container and I'll get you some gas. Well there was a problem, they didn't have a container. The only thing they could think of was John's rubber boots. The trucker put 10 boots full of gas in their car and they made it home. One of Mary's friends, who lived in Richland proper, took in boarders and cooked meals for three people that lived in Sunnyside. They went home on weekends, but part of the deal was that they gave her part of their ration coupons. This friend also had a small coupe to drive. There were shortages of everything, and when someone heard there was a line somewhere, everyone got excited. They never knew what would be for sale, but it didn't matter. She would drive through the neighborhood tooting her horn and the women would come out and jump into the car. Sometimes some would even hang onto the running board. They would get in line, and then find out what was for sale. It didn't matter, they would buy it and if they didn't need it, their friends did. What is now Columbia Center was a garbage dump. When you shop there today, you sometimes think it still is. One family gathering place was Howard Amon Park, which had a swimming pool. The family would have a picnic ready, and when Dad got home from work, they would head for the park. Mom would stake out a picnic spot and Dad and kids would head for the pool. They would wait in line, oh, 40 to 50 minutes. You could be in the pool for 30 minutes, and then everybody got out and a new group got in. Obviously, there were more people than would fit in the pool. The community celebrated Richland Days on Labor Day weekend for a few years. This changed to Atomic Frontier Days with parades and celebrations, and then this was combined to make the Benton Franklin County Fair. In 1949, the government was building the dam at Umatilla and they condemned the land in the Columbia Park area and bought everyone out. John and Mary were able to get a three bedroom prefab in Richland and they paid $37 a month rent. In their block on Snow Street, the government paid for everything but the rent. The trash trucks came right to your back door where the garbage cans were in a little shed and took them from there. There was one lawnmower for the block, a reel-type push mower, not that there was much gas. There was one phone outside on a pole for the block. The housewives could call housing for mousetraps, they were brought out and baited. Then you called housing to collect the traps and the mice. When they bought their ranch house, the monthly payment was huge, $76. It was nearly double what their rent had been and they didn't know if they could afford it. The house cost $10,500 and if you committed to stay there for a certain length of time, the purchase price went down $800. They gladly made that commitment. When there was a wedding, you gave a lot of thought to what would make a nice and useful gift. At one particular wedding, Mary and a friend with together and bought a nice pair of salad tongs. Then to make it more special, Mary wrote a poem to go with the gift. “Life is a salad, carrots for sunshine, onions for tears, cucumbers and celery for peace through the years, tomatoes the acid that sometimes make way into the tranquility of the day, radishes and peppers for garnish and frills, next comes the lettuce for paying the bills. Toss together with love for the dressing. May your bowl of salad have God's richest blessing.” Now you remember John and Mary had to promise to live in the house for a few years to get a reduced price, they lived there the rest of their lives. Then I have another story about Dick and Liz. Dick and Liz lived in Tennessee and Dick worked construction. This work provided a nomadic way of life for this family and their three small children. Dick would get a job, the family would pack up and move to the newest location. As soon as they could find a place to live, Dick would be off to work. It was Liz's job to settle the family, locate the grocery stores, the church, and make friends with the neighbors. They would stay six months to a year and then they would move to another job. They worked in Nebraska, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Tennessee. Liz was tired of moving around, she had a dream. She dreamt of a yard where she could grow flowers, she dreamt of living in one place for the rest of her life, not starting over every few months. Well, Dick went to Memphis one day and when he got home he showed her his train ticket to Hanford, Washington. He had been given a job on a construction crew at Hanford and they gave them a train ticket to get there. He and Liz talked and the next day he got on the train for Washington State. When he arrived in Pasco, he was met at the train station and given a ride directly to the job site and put to work. Well, Liz saw her dream of a home and permanence fly out the window. Again she had to make travel plans. Where on earth was Hanford, what would be there, where would they live, would they have schools, would there be any kind of civilization? Washington State was 3,000 miles away. Well, Liz didn't question the arrangements, her place was with her family and her husband was the provider. She would go where he was working. Liz made arrangements to bring the children out to Hanford. She had to make choices, what she could take with her and what she had to leave behind. She had a friend who worked for the railroad and he helped her as she packed her linens and their dishes and clothes. One large item she couldn't leave behind was her treadle sewing machine. She needed it for making and mending clothes. Her friend from the railroad helped her to get her belongings shipped, and then took her and the children to the station and put them on the train for this place, clear across the country, called Hanford. The trains were used both for civilian passengers and for military transport, they were crowded with soldiers. Before Liz left, her friend took her aside and warned her not have anything to do with the soldiers on the train, it might not be safe. Liz got on the train and was surrounded by soldiers. Many were just teenagers, 17 or 18 and very homesick. Others were young family men who had left their wives and children behind. They were delighted to see Liz and her children, and they couldn't do enough for them. The trip was much easier than anticipated—until they neared their destination. The train came across the Blue Mountains and was nearing Pendleton, Oregon when it stopped in the middle of nowhere. Was this Hanford? No, but there was a train derailed in front of them, they could go no further. They sat on the train for eight hours. Even though it was October, the passenger car was soon stifling since the noon-day sun was glaring down on them. People opened the train windows and soon they were covered with dust and soot. Finally, the track was cleared away and they got the Pendleton, but the train to Pasco was gone. Liz didn't know how they'd get the rest of the way or even where Pasco was from Pendleton. She didn't know how she could get in touch with her husband; she didn't have a cellphone, of course. The passengers were told there was a school bus about ready to take the kids home from school and they could get to Umatilla on that. Their train tickets would be honored. Liz wrote out a telegram to Dick and asked a porter to send it for her and she handed him $0.50. He said, not enough, and reached over and took $1.00 out of her hand, and then he never sent the telegram. Well, Liz and the kids were first in line to get on the school bus and then were told they had to go in and buy tickets. They went in the depot and they were told their train tickets were okay after all, but they were now last in line to get on the bus. But they did get on. They climbed on the bus with schoolkids, Liz carrying the baby. The bus was packed to capacity, but a man who had a seat stood and let Liz sit down. As a school children were dropped off, seats became available. Liz's kids thought they were going to Kenny-wick and the school children all laughed at that and taught them the name of the town. They got to Umatilla and were eventually put on a bus to Pasco. Well, Dick hadn't gotten any telegram, but had heard about the bus situation and was there to meet them and Liz wondered where they were going to sleep that night. Imagine her relief when Dick had told her he had just that day got a three bedroom prefab for his family and it was furnished. The furniture was minimal, but functional. There was one double bed and the necessary number of single beds for the children, there was a table and six chairs, a couch and a chair, a stove and an icebox. The only linen was one comforter for the double bed. There were no curtains, no trees, no grass, no flowers, but you know, it really didn't matter. They were in a house, they were together again as a family. They went to bed that night, the children were covered with their coats and Dick and Liz used the comforter, and the next day things got much better. All the things she had shipped arrived. They had dishes and pans and linens and clothes and even her sewing machine. Soon there were curtains at the window, trees, grass, and flowers took while longer. They were cared for in their little house. If the house needed painting, it was painted for them. If the furniture broke, it was replaced. If the light bulbs burned out somebody came and changed them. Dick's job was to work construction. Liz's job was to care for her husband and family. Everything they did was as a family. Neighbors would come over in the evenings; they’d put the children to bed and play pinochle. One night they decided to go out to a movie so they asked a neighbor to stay with the children, and Dick and Liz went to their first movie in Hanford. The first scene in the movie was of a fire burning in a fireplace, and that scene is etched in Liz's mind today. She can't remember anything else about the movie. Now their house didn't have a fireplace, but all she could see was their house on fire. She spent the entire movie worrying about her family and just knew her house would be gone when they got home. Well, her house and children were just fine, but she really didn't want to go to any movies after that. Few people had cars, and the Richland bus system was free and everyone used the buses. When some of the mothers wanted a chance to clean house without children underfoot they used the bus system. They would put the kids on the bus and let them ride to the end of the route and back home so they could cleanup house and maybe have a cup of coffee. Well they started going to the church and the second time they went, Liz was asked to teach Sunday school. She agreed and taught Sunday school most of the time for the next 45 years. One day she went to call on someone who had visited their church. There was a friendly Great Dane in the yard and when she knocked on the door, he came and stood patiently beside her. When the lady of the house invited her in, the gigantic dog walked in the house with her. He went in the kitchen area and curled up in the smallest area as a Great Dane can curl up in. After the visit, Liz started to leave and the owner of the house said don't forget your dog. Liz's reply was, that's not my dog; I thought he was your dog. Well, they shooed the dog outside and he wandered down the street until he came to his own home. There are stories of people not being able to find the right house when they come home. I expect the dog knew his house, he just wanted to meet the neighbors. Liz's dream had come true. She had a house and some permanence. She did have to move one more time, but that was only a couple miles north to a ranch house. She had lots of flowers in her yard, she raised her children and has been part of the same church family for 45 years. Dick passed away a few years ago, but Liz is still comfortable in her home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: That's great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Those are my stories— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: --from friends who grew up here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: I think that's great to just end it there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: I don’t--asking questions I don't think would-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 251 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:21:10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donna Jackson Description An account of the resource An interview with Donna Jackson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-06: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/format Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford(Wash.) Pasco(Wash.) Richland(Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9929b6d8d9a06ce53f2c9de05d80f158.JPG e9e0a5bfad333a32a583659be9800d7f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffad5af57705d4852e40bd30af70ea14a.mp4 5b9fdfc06f213cf89162c1795cd0a77c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donna Whiteside Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: Ready? Tom Hungate: Yeah, we’re ready. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Donna Whiteside on April 25, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Donna about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Donna Whiteside: Donna Whiteside. D-O-N-N-A. W-H-I-T-E-S-I-D-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you very much, Donna. So tell me, when did you first come to the Hanford area? Whiteside: 1953. Franklin: Okay. And I know you weren’t working then. Whiteside: Uh, no. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit more about why you came to the Hanford area? 0:00:46 Whiteside: My dad had a brother-in-law who worked for DuPont, as a matter of fact. And he got him out here from eastern Montana. And Mom and three kids came later. We did not move into Richland right away, because we had to be put on a housing list. So we lived in three different places, as I remember, in West Richland. Franklin: Okay. Now, but your brother-in-law wouldn’t have worked for DuPont in ‘53. He probably worked for GE. Whiteside: Well, he came out with DuPont. But, yeah. Franklin: Came out with DuPont and then stayed during the Cold War expansion of the Site. And then eventually you moved into an A house, right? Whiteside: Yes. The summer before I started kindergarten. Franklin: Okay. And do you know what year that was? Whiteside: ‘53. Franklin: ‘53. Whiteside: It was ‘53, yes. Franklin: And how long did you live in the A house for? Whiteside: Until I was a senior in high school. Franklin: Okay, and what year was that? Whiteside: 1965. Franklin: So your family purchased the house. 0:01:43 Whiteside: Yeah, they were the senior renters, so they had the first opportunity to buy the A house, which they did. Franklin: Okay. Did they convert, or-- Whiteside: No. The A houses, one half had a full basement; one had a half basement. We had the half basement part. So the first thing my mom and dad did was dig out the rest of the basement, take out the coal furnace, and make a TV room and half bath downstairs. Franklin: Okay. And then what about the other half of the A house? Whiteside: We rented it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: We rented it. Franklin: And so tell me, what was it like growing up in a--what do you remember about growing up in a government town? 0:02:20 Whiteside: It was great. It was very, very safe. You could walk home alone after dark knowing nothing was ever going to happen to you. It was just, you know. Every so many blocks, there was a little park that you could go and play in. There was a grocery store, a drug store right at the end of this park. It was just fun! Franklin: Because these were designed to be very, almost utopian kind of communities by the architect, with those kinds of things in mind. Whiteside: Mm-hmm, it was, yeah. Franklin: The parks and the kind of decentralized shop—there were stores in each neighborhood and everything. And were your parents, overall, happy with the quality of the housing, or--? Whiteside: I think so. I think so. Franklin: So you said you lived in that house until you graduated. How long did your parents stay in the house? 0:03:12 Whiteside: We all moved when I was a senior in high school. My dad passed away when I was young. But we all moved out to north Richland the year I was a senior in high school. I didn’t graduate until ‘66. It was the first part of my senior year that we moved. Franklin: Oh, okay. And why did you move? Whiteside: Because my mother wanted to. And our house had been sold to a couple that lived across the street on the same street we did. And they did convert it into one house. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did you move into newer construction, then? Whiteside: Brand-new house. Franklin: In north Richland. Whiteside: Brand-new house. Franklin: Like a ranch style? Whiteside: Yeah, sort of. But it did have a basement. Franklin: Okay, okay. So you said your father passed away pretty early. Whiteside: He was 35. Franklin: Oh, wow! Can I ask how he-- Whiteside: He either had a fishbone or chicken bone get caught in his throat. Franklin: Oh, my. Sorry, I’m not laughing, that’s just such a-- Whiteside: No, no, no, no. I understand. He actually bled to death is what happened. Franklin: Wow. Was he alone when this happened, or--? Whiteside: He stayed home from work, which was very unusual for my dad to do. My mom did not work. So she was home with him. Franklin: Okay. 0:04:18 Whiteside: The weird part about this was I was coming home from school—I was at Carmichael at the time, which was then a junior high rather than a middle school. An ambulance came down the street and, I said to the gal that I was walking home with, my mom’s in that ambulance. And she was. And she stuck her head out the door and said what was going on. So I just continued on home. Franklin: Wow. What did your father do for General Electric? Whiteside: He was an assistant engineer. But what he did, I have no clue, because nobody what anybody did, you know? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And after your father passed away, did your mother go work as well, or--? Whiteside: Um. Yes, but not right away. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: She got Dad’s VA and his social security and all of that stuff. The VA is what put three kids through college. Franklin: Oh wow. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: So your father was in World War II then. Whiteside: Yes, he was. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: Yeah, he was. Franklin: And so, you left Richland, then, in the late ‘60s, mid-to-late-’60s? Whiteside: Yeah, I went to college. Franklin: And where’d you go to college? Whiteside: The first term, I went to Bellingham. Franklin: Western Washington? Whiteside: Yes, Western. Franklin: And then where? Whiteside: Then I came back and went to CBC, and then I graduated from Eastern in Cheney. Franklin: Okay. And you got your degree in social work. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Right, with a minor in psychology. And tell me how you came back to work for Hanford. 0:05:40 Whiteside: Well, I interviewed for several different jobs in the social work field. Besides wanting me to have a master’s degree, they wanted five years of experience. Well, I could’ve gone back to school and gotten the master’s degree, but I still would lack the five years of experience. I had an uncle on Patrol at the time, and he said, why don’t you send in your application or get ahold of—whoever, I don’t remember even who it was I needed to get ahold of. But that’s what I did. And at the time, they were hiring minorities, and they considered women minorities on Patrol. Franklin: Sure, because women would’ve probably been very underrepresented-- Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: --in the patrol force. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And so--okay. So you send in your resume, and can you walk me through the process as how you got on? 0:06:28 Whiteside: Well, I went down to have—I went down to the Federal Building, in the basement, because that’s where Patrol headquarters was at the time. I interviewed with the assistant chief, whose name was Paul Beardsley. Next thing I knew, I was on Hanford Patrol. I do have to tell you, though, at the same time I was also offered a job as a Sunnyside policeman. Franklin: And how come you chose Hanford Patrol? Whiteside: Well, I figured I would probably be safer than I would in Sunnyside. And the chief in Sunnyside had a few concerns about the fact that I was a female and that I’d have a male partner and things could get out of hand with his wife or whatever. You know. Just because we’d be on night shift together. So I said, okay, I’m just going to go to Hanford. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure. That’s—given the time, the era, that would be a possible--a concern that a male chief would have. I guess we’ll put it that way. So you came on in what year? Whiteside: January of ‘74. Franklin: Okay. and were there other women working at Patrol at that time? 0:07:37 Whiteside: I was like the fifth one hired. Franklin: Okay. Do you know around what time the first woman was hired for Patrol? Whiteside: I think they were hired just prior, like sometime in late ‘73. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Whiteside: Because we all had to go through x amount of training and some of them were still in training when I started. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so, describe working for Hanford Patrol. What were your expectations and did it meet them, and how was it—some of the challenges you might have faced? Whiteside: Well, the biggest challenge was being a female. Franklin: Okay. 0:08:12 Whiteside: They had to convert dressing rooms. They had to convert restrooms. They had to remodel men’s uniforms so women could wear them. Franklin: Was that already being done by the time that you came on? Whiteside: Yeah, it was, it was. Franklin: How were you received by your male colleagues and then the Hanford workers at large? Whiteside: Most—most of the patrolmen were fine with it. A few of them—you know, you don’t need to be here. You need to be at home. Franklin: Ah. Were they older patrolmen that had that--or was it just maybe-- Whiteside: Most of them were older. Franklin: --that’s just how they had been brought up? Whiteside: Most of them were older. A couple of them was due to their religion. Franklin: Ah. Whiteside: Enough said. [LAUGHTER] I mean! Franklin: Sure. No, that’s fine. Whiteside: Enough said. Franklin: Yeah, right. And what about the employees at large? Did you ever receive any kind of criticism or anything from them? Whiteside: No. No. Franklin: You were just another-- Whiteside: I was just there. Franklin: You were just there. 0:09:21 Whiteside: But I will tell you, I would meet some of them in public, and they’d look at me and they’d say, you look familiar. I should know you. And I’d say, yeah, and if I put on a uniform, then you’d know who I was, wouldn’t you? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And were you firearms trained? Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: You carried a gun? Whiteside: We carried .38s at the time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Whiteside: And we had to qualify with .38s, shotguns, and M-16s during the day and at night, at least once a year. Franklin: Wow, M-16s. Whiteside: Uh-huh, M-16s. Franklin: So fully automatic weapons. Whiteside: They were, but we didn’t shoot them fully automatic. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s quite, that’s very--that’s impressive. Whiteside: And I was usually the last one to qualify. Franklin: Yeah? 0:10:05 Whiteside: Because my mindset was, we can’t use these until you’ve tried everything else in the world, you cannot draw a gun and use it. And it’s like, then why do I have to learn how to shoot these stupid things? But I did. Franklin: Okay, right, right. Yeah. But your service piece would’ve been a .38. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Right? Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Where were you stationed out of for patrol? Whiteside: Mostly out in the outer areas. I was headquartered out of 2-East and that covered East Area and al the 100 Areas. Of course, all the reactors but N Reactor were down at the time. But there was still a few checks that we had to make on the back shifts. Franklin: On the what shifts? Whiteside: Back. Graveyard and swing. Franklin: Oh, graveyard and swing, okay. Whiteside: Yeah, and of course weekends. Franklin: Wow. Okay. And what were some of your regular duties, besides the checks? Did you-- Whiteside: We had to let people in and out the gates. We had to check classified files. There were various gates and things that we had to check. You know, just being alert. Franklin: Just being alert? Whiteside: Yeah. And that’s sometimes really hard on graveyard. Franklin: Oh, I imagine. I imagine so. Whiteside: There was a tower on the river at N Area that was manned also. Franklin: Did you ever man that? 0:11:18 Whiteside: Oh, yeah. Because you rotated. Most of the time you rotated every two hours, unless you were at a barricade, and then it was like four hours. Franklin: What was the most unusual thing that you saw working on patrol? Whiteside: I can’t say there anything very unusual. It was pretty—it was pretty much like night watchman work. Other than letting people in and out of the gates and checking the files and stuff, it was pretty much just routine. Franklin: I guess that’s good that—I guess unusual on patrol is probably a bad thing, usually, right? Whiteside: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Was there ever any kind of humorous or anecdotal incidents that you saw while doing these duties? Whiteside: Well, I can tell you what happened to me one time. Franklin: Okay. 0:12:00 Whiteside: Once I got my Q clearance, I had to go with various patrolmen—and it was usually on the backshifts, so I would know all the checks. Because being the youngest person, seniority-wise, I could be sent to 300 Area, to 400 Area, to the Federal Building, to 2-West or whatever, to cover for vacations. So I had to learn all of the outer area stuff. We went into a building in West Area, I think it was 222-S, I’m not sure. But it was an S building; that’s all I know. The file we had to check was in a zone where we had to put on a lab coat and shoe covers. So, I followed the patrolman into the change room. Well, it was the man’s change room. And somebody looked at me and said, you have awfully long hair to be a guy. And I said, well, I’m not a guy. And he said, well, then you’re in the wrong change room. Anyway. I continued with my lab coat and shoe covers and we went and checked the file and we came back out. The patrolman said, now, you go in there and you drop off your shoe covers and your lab coat and then meet me on the outside. So I went through the women’s change room on the way out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, thank you. And so how long did you work as the watchman, night thing--? Whiteside: I was on patrol for eleven-and-a-half years. And then I went to the PUREX building and helped with the special authorization badges and the security. Then I went back to 100-N. Franklin: So that whole first eleven-and-a-half year chunk, was it pretty much the same kind of duties? Whiteside: Yeah, it was. Franklin: Considering that you didn’t train for patrol work in college, was there anything about patrol work that surprised you or stuck out to you in any way? Whiteside: Not really. Franklin: No? Whiteside: Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you find it pretty satisfying to do, given that it wasn’t something that you had trained for initially? Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. And so then you said you went to PUREX. Whiteside: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And what did you do at PUREX? Was that work different from the-- 0:14:02 Whiteside: It was like clerk work, but they also had one section of the building, you had to have a special badge to get into. So all the people that wanted badges for that area, the paperwork was sent to me. Franklin: Okay, and then-- Whiteside: Then I sent it to the manager of that section for him to sign off on. Franklin: Okay. So it was much more of a cler--still security-related, but more-- Whiteside: Right, but more clerical. Franklin: More clerical. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: And did you enjoy that work more or was it nice to be in a single spot or-- Whiteside: Well, it was day shift. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Was-- Whiteside: It was day shift. Of course, on the last couple years of patrol, I was on days, too. But, yeah, it was just—you knew it was Monday through Friday and-- Franklin: No covering for vacations. Whiteside: No covering for vacations. [LAUGHTER] Any of that kind of stuff. Franklin: How many people worked at the PUREX facility at that time? Whiteside: You know, I really don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: I really do not know. Franklin: I guess, by that time, though, you had a pretty good idea of what was happening, what was going on at Hanford, what was being made, and why. 0:15:05 Whiteside: Yeah, I guess it got a lot more open, you know, than it had been when I was growing up. Franklin: Sure, sure. And how did you—did you feel safe working at Hanford? Whiteside: Oh, yeah. I mean, I grew up here. Didn’t bother me at all. Franklin: Okay. Even from the kind of--you know, because Hanford wasn’t isolated from political or international incidents. So did any of the events in the Cold War ever cause you to worry, you know, or did you ever sense a kind of heightened sense of anxiety? Whiteside: Mm-mm. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: Nope. Franklin: And so you said, after—how long did you work at PUREX for? Whiteside: You know, I don’t know for sure. Because the last five years was PUREX and then it was back to N Area. And I can’t tell you where the division came. Franklin: Oh, sure. By the time you worked at PUREX, were the attitudes towards female employees in security and patrol, had they largely changed by then? Do you think people were more used to seeing females in the-- Whiteside: Oh, yeah. They were. Franklin: --in those kinds of roles? Whiteside: Because we had female lieutenants and all of that by that time. Franklin: Do you ever think about it or does it ever surprise you how kind of quickly that change happened, from no women in that workforce to women being kind of commonplace or not out of the ordinary? Whiteside: Well, I guess, being there, it really didn’t. Franklin: And so you said for the last part, you went to work at N Reactor. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And what kind of job was that, what kind of duties? 0:16:34 Whiteside: Basically I worked for the security guy at N Area. I was in charge of all the keys for all the 100 Areas and for Rattlesnake Mountain. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: So if somebody needed a key, they had to come to me to check it out. Franklin: Did you approve those requests, or--what was that process like? Whiteside: Well, if they needed the key—I can’t remember exactly, but probably the guy or the woman that was ahead of that had said, okay, so-and-so needs a key to get in here. Of course, we’d have to call the locksmith if we were shorthanded on keys or whatever then. Franklin: What were the kinds of reasons that people would need keys, especially to go up to like Rattlesnake Mountain or into a reactor that had been shut down? Whiteside: Just for safety checks, more or less. Franklin: Safety checks. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Same with Rattlesnake? Because was that facility still active when you were doing patrol? Whiteside: No, it wasn’t. Franklin: Okay. 0:17:29 Whiteside: It was still there. And it could’ve been made active, but it wasn’t. But it’s quite a facility. Franklin: Why don’t you tell me a little bit about it. Whiteside: It had sleeping quarters; it had a kitchen; it had big meeting rooms. Because that was where all the important people would’ve gone, if something had happened at Hanford. Franklin: Right. Whiteside: They would’ve bussed them up there. But it was a neat building. It really was. Franklin: So you went inside of it? Whiteside: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Was that part of your patrol duties? Whiteside: Well, no, that was not. One of our checks, if you worked in the 300 Area was to go up there and check the gates. But since I had the keys, just before I quit--I got to retire when I was 42 years old--we, a bunch of us, decided we wanted to go up there. Because I had the keys, we got the okay to go. Franklin: Oh, okay. So this was kind of like before you retired kind of checking it out kind of thing. Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Did you socialize mostly with people from--that worked at Hanford? Whiteside: We did, because my husband and I were both on the same shift. Franklin: Oh, so did your husband work patrol as well? Whiteside: No, no. He ran N--he was one of the shift managers at N Reactor. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you kind of worked together for the last-- Whiteside: Well, we--no. When I went back to N, he’d retired. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. 0:18:49 Whiteside: Westinghouse was coming in and the benefits he would get from UNC were better than those he would’ve gotten from Westinghouse, and he was 62 years old. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: So it was an optimum time for him retire. Franklin: Sure, yeah, a little earlier retirement and-- Whiteside: Yeah. For the most part, we worked the same shift. So our family, essentially, was the shift you were on. Because you had long changes together, you had days off between swing and days together. So we did a lot of things with them. Franklin: You say your family, you mean like your work family? Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So the people you socialized with were the people that were on the same shift. Whiteside: For the most part. Franklin: Would you say that was pretty common throughout-- Whiteside: I think it was. Franklin: --all the shift people, like graveyard people were associated with the graveyard people? 0:19:35 Whiteside: I think so. There were some straight day people that we did things with, too. But for the most part, if you wanted to do anything in the middle of the week, it was with the people that you were on that shift with, because we all had that day off. Franklin: Sure, sure. Whiteside: You know. Franklin: That makes sense. And did you meet your husband working out at the Hanford Site? Whiteside: I met my husband when his daughter and I started kindergarten at Spalding. Franklin: Oh, okay. So your husband was-- Whiteside: 23 years older than me. Franklin: Okay! And how did you become involved with your husband? Were you working out at the Site at the time? 0:20:04 Whiteside: yes, I was. I got my clearance, and the night that the patrolman took me to N Area to show me the checks, he told me that he thought Bob Whiteside was the shift manager. And I said, well, did he used to live in Richland and he’s got two kids and he moved back to Sunnyside and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And of course, the patrolman didn’t know. So he went into his office and he was not there. So, another guy--I don’t remember who it was--took me around and showed me the various parts of N Area. When we got back to Bob’s office, he was there. And somebody had told him that I was looking for him. Of course, he admitted later, he had no clue who I was. To me, he looked the same as my friend’s dad, 20-some years before. But I didn’t look the same to him, of course. [LAUGHTER] I mean, you know? Franklin: Well, sure, yeah. So that’s when you kind of I guess reconnected with him. Whiteside: Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. Franklin: And then you guys started dating at some point. Whiteside: Mm-hm, yup. Franklin: Interesting. And so you retired when your husband did, right? Whiteside: No, I worked for three more years. Franklin: Oh, you worked for three more years. Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. And that was that split-time between PUREX and N. Whiteside: And N, yeah. Franklin: So why did you choose to retire from Hanford? 0:21:28 Whiteside: He wanted to sell our house. We had an RV and he wanted to travel and see part of the country. And I was all for it. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: So we did that. Our house sold and we moved into the RV and covered most everything on our side of the Mississippi. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did you live in an Alphabet—the house you sold, was it a newer construction? Whiteside: It was new. It was on Spengler, right across the street from the 7-Eleven that’s on Spengler. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. Whiteside: And you know what used to be where the 7-Eleven is? A drive-in theater. Franklin: Oh, wow. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Interesting. Yeah, kind of a shame that those went away. Whiteside: Yeah, they were fun. They were fun. Franklin: Yeah. I’ve heard. It’d be nice if they could come back. They’re almost extinct now. Whiteside: They are, yeah, and that’s too bad. Franklin: Yeah. And so eventually, though, you came back to the Tri-Cities, obviously. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And why did you choose to come back to the Tri-Cities? Whiteside: Bob always knew that eventually, I wanted to come home. Franklin: Okay. 0:22:26 Whiteside: And I wanted to come home with him, not after something happened to him. So in ‘05, well, can we move home now? And he was 80 years old at the time. He said, yeah, it’s time. He was from Sunnyside, so essentially he was home, too. So he said, okay, you better call a realtor. So I did. And we bought a house. Franklin: Okay. And did the rest of your family still live here in the area? Your mother and-- Whiteside: My mother did, yes. My sister and the oldest of my brothers were in Spokane. One was in Salem; one was in [UNKNOWN] California at the time. Franklin: Okay. And so is your husband still with us, or is he-- Whiteside: No, he passed away almost five years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so what have you been doing since you came back? 0:23:13 Whiteside: I volunteer at the cancer center; I volunteer at the book room at the library. I do all the cards for the local Goldwing motorcycle chapter. I wear about three hats at church. I belong to the Cancer Guild. Franklin: So you’re keeping busy in retirement. Whiteside: I keep busy, yes, I do. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: As just about every retired person I know seems to be more busy than when they worked. Whiteside: Oh, believe me, it’s true. It’s true. Franklin: Were you—I’m wondering, this is probably going back a ways, but do you remember when JFK came to dedicate N Reactor? Whiteside: I do. I do. Franklin: Did you go out-- 0:23:52 Whiteside: I was not let out of school. My parents didn’t want me to get out of school. But I knew he was here. Franklin: Oh, okay. Did you have friends that went to see him? Whiteside: I probably did, but I can’t remember. Franklin: Okay. Were there any other events or incidents that happened in the Tri-Cities or Hanford that happened when you were a child or later on when you worked at Hanford? Whiteside: No. Just regular stuff. Franklin: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about living or working--living in the Tri-Cities and working at Hanford during the Cold War? 0:24:31 Whiteside: Well, I still think it was a very, very safe place. I think that perhaps, if it wasn’t DOE at the time, whatever it was, it would’ve been a little bit more open with what was going on. I think there would be not quite as many negative thoughts, ideas, whatever, about Hanford and Los Alamos and Oak Ridge and all of those. Franklin: So you’re saying, then, that that level of security is kind of—there’s been a legacy cost associated with that. Whiteside: I think so. I think so. Franklin: In terms of people’s maybe mistrust of nuclear. Whiteside: Well, you fear the unknown, and it was unknown. I mean it really was. Franklin: Sure, sure. And then when releases did happen, they were very hushed—you had to kind of pry that information out of them. Whiteside: Yeah, you did. Yeah. Franklin: The level of mistrust grows from the unknown, I guess. Whiteside: Yes, it does. Franklin: Well, Donna, is there anything else you’d like to mention before we close up today? Whiteside: I don’t think so. Franklin: Okay, well, thank you so much-- Whiteside: Thank you. Franklin: --for coming in and interviewing with us. Whiteside: You bet. Franklin: Okay. Great. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9980 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Patrol 2-East 100 Areas East Area 300 Area 400 Area Federal Building 2-West West Area 222-S PUREX 100-N N Reactor Rattlesnake Mountain Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 71 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donna Whiteside Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Donna Whiteside reflects on moving to Richland when her father moved the family from Montana. Donna worked as a patrolman working graveyard or swing before taking other security related positions until she retired and traveled for sometime in her RV. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/25/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe96772868bcbb27fc792d8ce071d7ad8.jpg 1edcf090a52c05e2abb84031af5e6bdb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7e4463a8a3acaf49a721532d344d9f3f.mp4 6f741c1244f024accff8b1403feeae12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lewis, Doris Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Lewis_Doris Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And, yeah, I'm sure it will be. Man One: Yeah, I am too. Doris Lewis: Because I think I've forgotten more than I remember. Man One: Me too. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] Miriam: So mom, I won't chime in unless you ask me to. Lewis: Yeah. Miriam: Okay? Lewis: Okay. Man One: Going here. Bauman: Okay, we’re good to go? Man One: Yeah. Lewis: Well-- Bauman: All right. Lewis: --see, you were born in-- Miriam: 1958. Lewis: Yeah, October. Miriam: Why don't we let them ask the questions? Bauman: We'll go ahead and get started, yeah. Lewis: Okay. Bauman: So let's go ahead and get started. And first I'm going to just have say your name for us. Lewis: Now? Bauman: Yeah, go ahead. Lewis: My name is Doris Lewis. Bauman: And my name is Robert Bauman. And today is August 14, 2013. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start by having you tell us about how and why you came to this area. Lewis: Okay. I came to this--I got married in Seattle. I got engaged back in Minnesota and I came out west. And we were married in Seattle in--what was it? Miriam: 1944. Lewis: Yeah, 1944--December 5, 1944. Miriam: So can I--Mom, but you came out here--you guys were waiting to get married for Dad to get kind of a good job. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Miriam: And so he got a job out here, right? Lewis: Yes. Miriam: When did he get the job out here? Lewis: Well he got the job--let's see. We were married in--he got the job in '43. Miriam: So you didn't even have your house when you moved out here. You came to Seattle, got married, and then moved into your house here? Lewis: Yeah, we moved into a one-bedroom prefab, of which I have a picture. Miriam: So you came out here because Dad got a job here. And that was what allowed you guys to get married. And that's when you moved here. Lewis: Yeah. That's why I moved here, yes. Bauman: And so what sort of job did your husband have? Lewis: He was a photographer, a patrol photographer. Bauman: And his name was? Lewis: Walt--S. Walt--It's Sam Walter Lewis, but everybody knew him as Walt. Bauman: And so he got a job working as a photographer at the Hanford site? Lewis: Mm-hm. He was on patrol here, working on patrol. But he was a photographer. Bauman: Oh okay, so working for the Hanford patrol? I see. Okay. What was Richland like when you came here in 1944? Lewis: Well, Richland was still being built when I came here in 1944. And they put up prefabs to get housing up quickly. And since we were a couple, we got a one-bedroom prefab. It was on Sanford and Symons--a lot different today. And the sidewalks were that macadam. And asparagus was growing up on the sidewalks, as I remember, right across from our prefab. I have a picture here of myself sweeping off the porch-- Bauman: That's great. Lewis: --of the prefab. You may have it. Bauman: We'll film that later. Yeah, that's great. Lewis: Mm-hm. So anyway, that was my first home here. And it was really darling. I bought yellow chintz with blue figures on it. And one of the women here helped me make drapes. People were very friendly. And she not only helped me, she just made the drapes. [LAUGHTER] And we used to get together and have parties. And we formed a community. It was a lot of fun. Bauman: Mm-hm. And I'm guessing there must have been people coming here from all over the United States? Lewis: All over, from every--the people I saw a lot of happened to be Southerners. And they were really warm and friendly. Bauman: And you said your first house was-- Lewis: A one-bedroom prefab. And it was darling. It had a living room. And then it had a curtained off area for the kitchen and bathroom and bedroom. And it was adequate for a couple. Bauman: And how long did you live there? Lewis: You know, I don't remember. Not too long. So we moved into a two bedroom for a while. I've lived in every house in Richland. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So when you first came here, you talked about it being a very friendly place, very friendly community. Were there things to do, entertainment, places to shop, those sorts of things? Lewis: Oh. They still had--big bands came here. And Hanford was still running. I went to their house, open house, where they served meals and stuff. They were still serving meals. And they served family style. The waiters came in with huge plates of food and put them on the tables, a lot of food. And they still hand entertainers come in. There were some big time bands. I don't remember now who they were, but they were notables. They were a lot of fun, too, because everybody was friendly. You danced with whoever asked you. And my husband was taking pictures. So I didn't get to--he didn't help me. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So it must have been quite a bit different than Minnesota, or Seattle. Lewis: Oh, yeah, quite a difference, yeah. Bauman: I've heard people talk about the heat and the dust and the winds, you know, the termination winds. Lewis: And the place was dug up. So we'd have terrible sandstorms. And I would come home at night to my house and the couch--you know, these were prefabs. So they're not too well built. I come home to my house and my couch was covered with sand. You couldn't see the pattern on it. And then we had to sweep out. [LAUGHTER] We were young. And it didn't matter. We took everything in stride. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or anything like that would go on in Richland at the time? Lewis: I'm sure there were. I don't remember. I'm sure there were. Bauman: Yeah. I understand that there was not a synagogue at the time that moved here and that you and your husband were involved in-- Lewis: Yeah, there were about 12 of us, eventually. And we got a group together. We held services every Friday night in our homes. And we formed a Jewish community. Yes. As I say, there were only 12 of us. I don't know when we built the--we built the synagogue when Jerry was-- Miriam: There was the 60th anniversary recently. Lewis: Huh? Miriam: Recently, there was the 60th anniversary. Lewis: Yeah. Bauman: So sometime in the 19--early '50s. Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: But we opened the synagogue when Jerry was about two or three, I think. A Seattle architect, a Jewish architect, drew up the plans--didn't charge us. And we had Meyer Elkins, who was--he supervised the building. He worked for AEC. And he was in charge of our synagogue building. We hired an architect from Seattle, and I cannot remember his name. But he was a very good architect. And our original synagogue has been enlarged to twice its size. There was an addition put on that was as big as the original building. Now I don't know when that was, either--I mean the date. Bauman: Right. Miriam: All right, can I ask a question? Mom, how did you guys raise the money to build it? Lewis: How did we raise the money? Miriam: And how many more--you were 12 originally, but how did the congregation grow? Lewis: Well, it grew. There were 12 of us that built it, the synagogue. We pledged to pay over a period of years. And the bank loaned us the money. And now what did you just ask me? Miriam: Just--there were 12 of you to start with, but when the synagogue was built, did people start hearing of it and start coming? Sorry, I'm-- Lewis: Yeah, well I don't know. I don't know when--it took a while to build it. And once they built it, then we had regular services every Friday evening and Saturday morning. And we celebrated holidays there. The synagogue was a central point for us. That's where we held all our activities. That's where we met. And that's how we really functioned. Bauman: And you said there were 12 initially. Do you remember any of the other individuals who were involved early on? Lewis: Any what? Bauman: Any of the other people who were involved early on? Lewis: Oh yeah, well most of them are dead now. Bauman: Sure. Lewis: There was Meyer and Tilly Elkins. And Meyer was a--he was a builder. He was an engineer. But he did building. And he supervised the building. And I'll tell you, it was perfect. [LAUGHTER] He was very, very concerned about every detail. We have a good, solid building. And if it weren't for these dedicated people, we wouldn't have had anything. Because we pledged the money for it, which at that time seemed like a lot of money. You couldn't do it today. And I don't remember the amount, but I think it was only about $16,000. I'm not sure of that. Miriam: So mom, who were the rest of the 12 people? Lewis: Now that's a good question. Miriam: The Francos. Lewis: The Francos. Miriam: So that's Bob and Eileen Franco. The Kahns? Were the Kahns? Lewis: Well yeah, Herb-- Miriam: Herb and Albert-- Lewis: --took charge of the financing, took charge of the banking. Miriam: So that's six out of the 12. Who were the--oh, the Goldsmiths. Were the Goldsmiths? Lewis: Yeah, I don't think they were early, no. I'm trying to remember. You know, I don't remember. Miriam: That's something my brother could probably actually give you the information on. Lewis: Well it might be in the book. Miriam: No, this is Kennedy. Lewis: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know what Jerry remembers. But he was, I think, about two years old when they built it. Miriam: But we can ask Jerry. Jerry can give them the information about the rest of the 12 people. Because I'm sure he will know. Bauman: That's fine, yeah, sure. Lewis: Okay. Bauman: I was going to ask you then, obviously, your children were born here? Lewis: Who? Bauman: Your children were born here. Is that correct? Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: Oh, you--Miriam was born here and Jerry was born here. Bauman: And how was Richland as a place to raise a family? How did you experience that? Lewis: It was a wonderful place to raise a family. Because families were very important. And we got everything for free. They needed people here. And they did everything to keep us. Because it was a population that moved in and moved out. Many of them came, looked around, and left. They wouldn't stay. [LAUGHTER] But I think it was a very nice little community. We loved it here. We made friends, and we had activities. And we were busy. And then, of course, I had a job. I was a secretary. I worked first it was still under DuPont until I think '45 when GE came in. Bauman: And what part of the Hanford site did you work at? Lewis: Well I worked down--I was downtown then in the Ad Building. And I worked for--I can't remember what--Overbeck was one of the fellows. I was one of the top secretaries here at that time. Bauman: And how long did you work? Lewis: I worked a long time. [LAUGHTER] I quit working when my son was born. And that was in '55. And I quit for six or seven years. And then I came back to work again. And I worked part time for a while. But secretaries always had jobs. They needed secretaries. And I was an experienced one. They used to say if you knew a typewriter from a washing machine, they'd hire you. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what did you think of working at Hanford? How was your experience or your experiences working there? Lewis: What did I think of working there? Bauman: Yeah, how was it? Lewis: I liked it. It was interesting work. I didn’t know--I wasn't engineering knowledgeable. I didn't really know what they were doing. But it was a big secret. And in August 1945--I think that was when the first bomb was dropped. I remember working in the Ad Building there. And all the managers, everybody was on edge, waiting to hear the outcome of the dropped first bomb. Yes. Bauman: Is that when you first knew what was going on, what had been happening at Hanford? Lewis: Yeah, it was all very secret. And it didn't get out. Very few people knew what they were doing. Because very few people--it was a new art, or whatever you call it--a new technical thing. And they never knew, until it went off, if it was going to work. I worked for W. P. Overbeck. I worked for Vic Hansen from DuPont. He was one of the managers, a very good man. But he was only there for about six months after I hired in. Bauman: So when you first came for your jobs at Hanford, what did you know about the place? Were you just told it had something to do with the war effort? Lewis: We weren't told anything. I don't remember them--we knew we were working for the government and that it was very secretive. And that's all we knew. And I wasn't educated enough to know what we were doing. Now, some people may have surely knew. But as I say, engineering was something I didn't know anything about. But I learned some things. And I helped the wheels go around. Bauman: Yeah, did you have to get a special clearance to be able to work at Hanford? Lewis: Yeah, I had--we wore security badges. And before I quit, I got a top security clearance, because I'd been here a long time. And I worked for some of the top fellows. G. G. Lale--I can't remember what he was, but he was assistant to the man that was in charge. I think W. E. Johnson was in charge then. I'm not sure. Things are jumbled together for me. Because I'm so old I can't remember too accurately either. Bauman: You're doing great. [LAUGHTER] You're remembering a lot. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] I don't know. Bauman: So your husband working for the Hanford patrol as a photographer. How long did he work at Hanford? Lewis: He worked here a long time. And then he finally quit and went to Oregon--Gresham, right outside of Portland, and established his own business. That was a dream of his all his life. He wanted to have a studio, photographic studio, so he bought one. But however, he didn't look closely enough at it. And he spent a year trying to build a business. But he never could accomplish one that would keep us. And I was supposed to join him in about three months, quit my job and join him. But in three months’ time we knew that he needed my financial help. So I stayed on. And we visited back and forth. And he finally quit and came down here. And he got a job here as a photographer. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about President Kennedy's visit in 1963. Lewis: Yeah, that was--we went out. It was a hot, hot day. It was when the Dual Purpose Reactor--it was a D Reactor--was being dedicated. And Kennedy--it was a very hot day out in the desert. And there was a big crowd--I don't know, 40,000 50,000--a lot of people. And a friend of mine and I--Bonnie Goldsmith. They were here early. And we took our kids, Philip and Jerry, but-- Miriam: Not me. Lewis: Not you, no. And they were what, about five or six? Miriam: No, it was 1963. They were seven or eight. Lewis: Yeah, and they immediately ran around, got lost. We had to find them. But Kennedy spoke. He was the most impressive, the most glamorous man I think I've ever in my life seen. And he was a marvelous speaker. It was just a pleasure to sit down and look at him and listen to him. He was fantastic. And he had this magic wand that started the reactors at D Area. But this desert—I think there were 40,000, 50,000 people there. And it was a hot, hot day. And the cars were--length of cars there. I remember--when was D activated? I can't remember the date. But everybody spoke. It was a wonderful, wonderful affair. And it was so impressive that waving the wand started the reactor. So it made both electricity and the others. Bauman: And your husband took some photos that day? Lewis: Mm-hm. He took photos. And we have some of the photos in this book there. The information is there. My son gathered it all together. He published not very many of these. He just did--something that he wanted to do. So you may look at it, because the pictures and the information on there are much more accurate than what I'm giving you. [LAUGHTER] I don't remember a lot. Miriam might remember stuff when she started school here, too, that might be of interest. Okay? Miriam: Well he can ask the questions, and if he wants to ask me I'm sure he will. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well I was going to ask are there any other major events that happened while you were working at Hanford that you recall or-- Lewis: Oh, well no doubt there were a lot of major events. But I don’t—I mean, if you ask me the question, I could answer specifically. But as a whole, the work went on daily. The scientists were working on it all the time. And when they dropped the bomb in, what was it, August? Was it August? Bauman: August, uh-huh. Lewis: Everybody was waiting. We didn't know what they were waiting for. But they were waiting. The top fellows knew that the bomb was going to be dropped. And we did get the information, finally. It was terrible, really. It was a terrible thing to do. But they felt that they really saved lives by dropping that bomb. Because they stopped—I mean, they weren't winning, they weren't losing. It was a very iffy situation. And that, of course, stopped everything. It was terrible. Bauman: I was going to ask you—Richland initially was a government town, federal government. At some point it became an independent-- Lewis: They sold the houses to the inhabitants. Bauman: So were you able to buy your house at that point, then, buy a house? Lewis: Yeah, we bought--what was the first house we bought? I think it was a B house. Miriam: Was that the house where I was born? Lewis: Yeah, it was a B house. Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: Two-bedroom house, a duplex. Bauman: And do you remember, were people in Richland excited about the possibility to do that sort of thing, to have independent-- Lewis: Do they have what? Bauman: Were people in Richland excited about being able to buy their own homes, be sort of independent? Lewis: Oh, yeah. By that time they will permanently implanted here. And the job was going to go on. [COUGH] Excuse me. And they sold the houses for pittances. Especially the expensive houses were real bargains--the prefabs not so much, because they didn't cost much in the first place. But I think I was living in a B house then, a two-bedroom duplex. And I bought the whole house. And we rented out the duplex. And I lived there for a while. And then we sold it and bought a ranch house. [LAUGHTER] I've lived in, I think, every house here. I lived in a B house, in a ranch house, and in a--what else? In our house. Miriam: I don't have the letters memorized. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: Yeah, right. Bauman: Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet, anything that-- Lewis: I kept upgrading myself. Miriam: In terms of history, probably not, although you did ask about--Mom, I was just curious, because this is of course what I like to know, where did you grocery shop and stuff when you first came here? Lewis: Well we had a Keiser's store, a grocery. Miriam: When you first came here in '44? Lewis: Well you know, I don't know what we had then. We had a Keiser--we had grocery stores. I think Safeway was here then. Miriam: Oh, really? Lewis: Yeah, right. Miriam: Yeah, I was just curious. Lewis: Mm-hm. I don't remember a lot. But I think there was plenty of shopping. Miriam: Mm-hm. Were you happy with the schools you sent us to? Lewis: Yes, I was active in the schools. And my relationships were very good. Our teachers were excellent. They were dedicated, because they came out here in the middle of nowhere. [LAUGHTER] What did you think about your teachers? Miriam: Well I just thought--this is my impression, is that because there were so many scientists here that education was a value and that I remember that school levies, when I was growing up, because I born in 1958, the school levies always passed. Nobody considered that they shouldn't be spending public money to support education. And I always thought that was because of the heavy concentration of really highly educated people that came here. Bauman: So what schools did you go to then? Miriam: I went to Jefferson Elementary, Chief Joseph Junior High, and Richland High School. And my brother--Jerry went to Jason Lee to begin with. Mom, do you remember? Jerry didn't start at Jefferson. Lewis: No, he didn't. Miriam: Jason Lee? Lewis: I don't remember. Miriam: I think so. Anyhow, he started a different school and then went to Jefferson when we moved to the neighborhood where we-- Lewis: Lived. Miriam: --Grew up. And where Mom still lives. Bauman: And so, those elementary schools must have been pretty much new when your kids started there, or close to. Lewis: Yeah. Jefferson was just built, I think. It wasn't very old. Miriam: Yeah, I don't know. Bauman: And just given the influx of population suddenly, all these young families, there had to have been a new school being opened that served the population there. Anything else you can think of that either one of you--we haven't talked about, or--? Miriam: Well just that I think, Mom, you never thought that you would come out here and spend the rest your life here. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: No, never. I never thought that. And it was away from my family, and from friends. However, we managed. We went back to Minnesota every summer. [LAUGHTER] Our families were there. Miriam: But I want to come back a little bit to the synagogue. Because as a very, very tiny minority here, we families banded together to build the synagogue, it was a very, very strong community. And still, it's not as strong now in that same way, but these people were all like additional parents, or like aunts and uncles to all of us. And my mom was called Aunt Doris. My dad was called Uncle Walt. That was how we addressed the parents in those families, us as children. And that it's interesting to have this group of Jews wandering in this particular desert. [LAUGHTER] Because it really has a very, very--it's a microcosm of the whole Richland thing, where you have people coming from all over and creating a very strong, very close community, because they are away from all of the places they came from. And our Jewish community reflected that same phenomenon. Bauman: Absolutely, yeah, right, thrown together from all these disparate areas. Lewis: As time went on, we never intended--at first, we intended to move back to Minnesota when this job was finished. It was never finished. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] It just kept going. Lewis: Yeah, so we stayed on. And it was our home. We loved it here. I love it here. Bauman: That's a similar theme I get. A lot of people who I've talked to come here thinking they'll stay here for a little while and then end up staying for 40 years or 60 years or however long. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: Yeah, right. A little while became forever. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right, right. Well I want to thank you very much for coming in today. Lewis: Yeah, I'm afraid I wasn't much help, because my memory's so bad. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: This was terrific. Lewis: But it was fun. It was a wonderful experience. We loved it here. I still do. Bauman: Well thank you again. Appreciate it. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 239 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Ad Building D Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Lewis, Sam Walter Elkins, Meyer & Tilly Overbeck, W.P. Lale, G.G Johnson, W.E. Kennedy, John F. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doris Lewis Description An account of the resource An interview with Doris Lewis conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Ad Building D Reactor DuPont General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc3fa2945a233debbf97729f37ac460ce.JPG dd1b10256a2b922e96d8e6590c70ede7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Douglas Alford Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Douglas Alford on January 22, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Doug about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Douglas Alford: Madden Douglas Alford. Now you want me to spell it? Franklin: Yes, please. Alford: The last name? Oh. M-A-D-D-E-N. D-O-U-G-L-A-S. A-L-F-O-R-D. Franklin: Great, thanks. And you prefer to go by Doug, right? Alford: Yes. Franklin: Okay, great. So, Doug, tell me how you came to work for the Hanford Site. Alford: I came in 1951. Franklin: Okay. And how did you hear about Hanford? Alford: Pardon? Franklin: How did you hear about Hanford? Alford: Well, I went to school at Central Washington in Ellensburg. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: And so I was familiar with it. Franklin: Where are you from originally? Alford: Well, I was born in North Dakota. Franklin: Okay. And when did you come to Washington? Alford: I came to Washington in 1934. Franklin: Okay. Why did your parents come to Washington? Alford: My dad was a farmer. We had three years of no crops whatsoever. Dust blowing. It was a lot worse than—you’ve heard about the dust blowing here at Hanford, but it didn’t hold a candle to what we had in North Dakota. Let’s see. Well, my dad sold the place for $1600. It was a section of ground, but that’s all he got. So, when we came out, we came over with two cars. The lead car was a Model T Ford, and he was a relative of my mother. And then we followed him and we came over the Rocky Mountains. It was just a gravel road at that time. Franklin: Wow. Alford: It was quite a trip. We were in the second car, so there was a lot of dust. Every once in a while, we’d lose him ahead of us. But [LAUGHTER] we’d back off a little bit and we’d find out he was there. Franklin: How old were you when you made the trip? Alford: About—I left about when I was seven years old. Franklin: Okay, so you were born in—what year were you born? Alford: ’25. Franklin: ’25, okay. Wow, that sounds like quite a journey, driving from North Dakota. Where did your parents settle when they came to Washington? Alford: It was Kirkland, Washington. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what made you choose Central Washington College? Alford: What year? Franklin: Why did you go to Central Washington? Alford: Well, I was in the Navy prior to that. I just—I had always planned to go to college, so. I think that was in 1946. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Alford: ’46. I think I started at college and didn’t like it too well and I quit after a quarter or two. And then went back the next year and finished my degree in chemistry. Franklin: In chemistry, right. And then you—when did you come to Hanford? What year did you come to Hanford? Alford: That was 1951. Franklin: And what did you do? What was your first job at Hanford? Alford: The first job—I had about ten or twelve lady laboratory technicians that I was supervising. I think I did that about three years, three or four years. It didn’t appeal to me after a while. Franklin: Yeah? Alford: I thought there might be something a little better. Franklin: Okay. And what did you move on to? Alford: Well, I quit Hanford and worked—a friend of mine up in Prosser on a farm. But that was supposedly a year-round job, and it didn’t pan out that way somehow. So I called my friend, Fred Clagett. He was the mayor of Richland at that time, but he also worked in personnel at Hanford. And I told him I’d like my job back, but I don’t want the same one. And he said, that’s fine, and he even gave me a raise. Franklin: Wow. Alford: But I did spend a little time reading pocket books and things like that until my clearance came. That was customary for most everybody coming in. You just sat there and read and had to wait for your Q clearance. Franklin: The Q clearance, right. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So what job did you hire back in as? Alford: In engineering—an engineer. I guess they call it an Engineer I or something like that. That was much more appealing to me. I had that on one of those write-ups I had. I don’t know whether you have it or not. Franklin: I do, yeah, it says that you worked in the 300 Area. Alford: Yeah, that’s the 300 Area. Franklin: What kind of duties did you do as an engineer there in the 300 Area? Alford: You know, I might have to have one of those myself to remind myself. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay. There you go. Yeah, that’s all right. Visual aids are encouraged. So it says here you worked doing cold pilot plant work and the recovery of uranium from simulated solvent extraction products, which contained urinal nitrate hexahydrate. Alford: Yeah, that was the first job. Uranyl nitrate—when you brought the slugs in from the—or the fuel elements in from the 100 Areas, we’d dissolve them in nitric acid. We’d always—so they’re mainly the uranium slug. We took the solution, the uranium solution and put it in a calciner at a pretty high temperature, and we’d come out with uranium oxide. That was the—we were just testing what temperatures we needed to run that and things like that. Franklin: So you’re basically trying to recapture the uranium, during the process— Alford: Yes. Franklin: So you could probably re-put it in other fuel? You could refuel it. Alford: Yeah, it could be reused—the uranium could be reused. And then we also ran cold operations in a little bit of a pilot plant, to separate—trying to separate the strontium and cesium out of the solvent-extracted waste. The solvent extraction is a number of steel columns. The first one, the waste stream from the first one contains all the fission products. Downstream, the different columns, we’d get the strontium, cesium isolated there. Franklin: What was the purpose of isolating the strontium and cesium? Alford: They’re a fission product, a long-lived fission product. So for one thing, Oak Ridge was looking for cesium-137 for medicinal work, actually. But they’re both long-lived isotopes. We figured we had to get rid of them later on so we could isolate them. They’re a really—in the waste stream. There’s more work downstream. We moved from—that was in the 300 Area, and then we moved to the 200-East Area, what we called the hot pilot plant at that time, semi-works and we just continued the pilot scale work that we were doing in the 300 Area, just on a slightly larger scale. But that, at the semi-works, we were on actual PUREX waste stream that contained the strontium and cesium. Franklin: So you were receiving the waste as it was exiting the PUREX plant— Alford: Yes. Franklin: But you weren’t extracting all of—you weren’t using all of the waste, right, just a portion of the waste? Alford: No, just a very small portion of it. Franklin: So that’s how a lot of that strontium and cesium ended up in the waste tanks later on. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Because you couldn’t—so, when you would extract it, you said you used to the cesium—Oak Ridge wanted the cesium. What was the strontium used—was it just extracted because it was so radioactive, or did it have an application? Alford: Well, we extracted it because it’s a long-lived—it’s a 90-year half-life, and it’s something we just simply had to—I think it’s still stored out at Hanford, probably, in large lead casks. There’s a lot of strontium and cesium in the tanks out there also. But from the pilot plant at the semi-works, I moved to B Plant. That’s a full-scale operation. We ran around the clock. We had four shifts. I think—I don’t remember exactly how many—but anyhow, my part of that one, I was writing the—I had several engineers and a couple technicians, and we wrote the—took the procedures from the other research and engineering people in the building. They told us how to do it, but then we put it into operating procedures for our operators. That’s what I did; it’s called Process Control. We wrote the operating—that was a—I guess I was—well, I moved from there to the manager of B Plant operations. Franklin: So, B Plant was effectively a copy of T Plant, right? It was a Manhattan Project era canyon. Alford: Yes. Franklin: What process were you operating at the time? What were you processing at B Plant? Alford: At B Plant, we had large-scale solvent extraction columns. They were just enlarged from the pilot plant. It was initial pilot plant in the 300 Area, then semi-works was upgraded a little bit, and then B Plant was big, steel columns. And you got solution—aqueous solution going in and organic solution going in, and they were pulsating. This is how we’d separate one from another—one isotope from another. Franklin: What isotopes were you separating in B Plant? Alford: Well, we weren’t actually—just separating the waste stream. Finally getting the plutonium out of the—to send to the—well, the Plutonium Finishing Plant, that’s the one that they’re having trouble with right now. Franklin: Yeah, 234-5. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So in B Plant, you were separating plutonium. You were taking this solution in, and then separating the plutonium out from the waste stream. Alford: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And you did this—this was all done remotely, right? Alford: Right, yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that a bit. What were the challenges in doing this work remotely? Alford: Well, the cover blocks sit over the cells. We’d have about five cells, and you’ve got cover blocks over each cell, several. I think about three cover blocks: one on each side and a middle one. Those cover blocks weigh about 70 tons each. Franklin: Wow. Alford: And then it’s all stainless steel piping in the processing cell. And then we have a big gantry crane that moves over. The crane operator, when he gets—if we have to make a rooting change in the cell, he removes the cover blocks, and he has remote—we have remote connectors on every—we call them jumpers, that’s the solution transfer pipe from one to the other. And he’d make that whatever transfer or connection we needed, and then cover blocks go back on. That was the—we were always, of course, in a down period when that happened. Franklin: What do you mean, a down period? Alford: Well, I mean, we weren’t operating when the cells were open. Franklin: So you said that each cover block weighs 70 tons? Alford: Yeah. Franklin: So that’s concrete—those are concrete blocks, right? Alford: Well, they were—I’ve forgotten how big they are now. I think they’re seven feet thick and I’m not sure how wide. Franklin: That’s huge. Alford: The cell was about—well, one cell was probably 20 feet or so. 20 by maybe 15 or something. I don’t remember exactly. Maybe 10 by 20. I can’t remember that. Franklin: That’s okay. So I imagine that in that area, you would be on the other side of a thick concrete wall, sampling and observing the process. You wouldn’t actually be in the gallery, right? Alford: No. Franklin: Because it was too radioactive in there. Alford: Right. Franklin: How did the operators see—did the operator have a direct line of sight on what he’s doing, or how did you shield the crane operator from the radioactivity? Alford: Well, the crane operator, he had lead shielding underneath him and whatnot. He had lead shielding all around his cab. Our operators, they would have to go in to take process samples routinely. At that time, they were getting more exposure than we liked. That’s where I devised a sampler that reduced their time in there. I applied for a patent on it, but they told me that I used vacuum so that invalidated the—I can’t imagine why. But anyhow, it did the job for the operators. They still call it the Alford connector. Franklin: Oh, that’s cool. I’m wondering if you can describe this Alford connector. What did it look like and how was it an improvement over the existing sampler? Alford: Well, the only thing that it improved, it took a lot less time to take the sample, so they weren’t exposed—they weren’t in the canyon as long as they would have before. Franklin: Would the block have to be off for them to take the sample? Alford: No, they have—the blocks are all on, and we were operating at that time. But you have to take successive samples to go to the analytical lab, and that’s where these ladies were working. Franklin: Oh, right. So how would—if the blocks are on and the stuff is in the cell and it’s connected by a jumper, how would you get a sample out? Where was the— Alford: Well, the sample port is built in. There’s an entryway in the cell cover block itself. It’s not a straight line; it’s a curved line to reduce radiation. But I think that’s— Franklin: That’s really interesting. Alford: There is one little—when I moved in from process control to the manager of the plant, I could always—a little bit of a smell in the office, and I couldn’t figure it out. And, I don’t know, I asked somebody what it might be. Well, it turned out to be, the crane operator, in order to come back down out of that crane and change clothes and go to the bathroom—well, he had to urinate. And this thing ended up in my office. He didn’t run right in the office, but that was the smell that I heard. Franklin: Oh, wow. Alford: It took us a while to uncover the problem there. [LAUGHTER] The crane operator didn’t admit it, but— Franklin: It’s a waste stream of a different kind, huh? Alford: Yeah! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, man. Okay. So what were some of the challenges of working in B Plant? Alford: Well, one of the things that, even when I was process control, but more often when I became manager, I’d get more night calls than I wanted. If we have a stream that’s—if you have a waste stream going out and the radiation is higher than it should be, or when we dump the acid, some of the acid waste into the tanks, it’s supposed to be neutralized before it goes to the tank. Occasionally, the guys would fail to neutralize it, and we’d get a little bit of a burp out in the Tank Farm. Well, we had normal problems with operators and engineers—nothing unusual, I guess. They weren’t— Franklin: I imagine, all that shielding and not being able to directly see what was going on, was that challenging? To have all of that shielding between you and what was actually happening there? Alford: Yeah. We had to depend on—we had a lot of control instruments. You know, just like, they’re reading all the—on the graphs—I can’t remember now what exactly we did, I mean. But the chemical operators, they’re on the outside. They’re not in the area of the canyon. There’s probably a six-foot wall between them, between them and the canyon. So they weren’t in a radiation zone. But the only ones that—we had to send samplers in every so often. I had a boss that was pretty persnickety. He was—at least occasionally one of my supervisors would call him instead of calling me first. And then he’d call me, and then I’d have to pretend like I knew about it. It was a little bit of a game that we played. But he’s what I’d call a perfectionist. I know when I had to write monthly reports every month, I thought I had the perfect report one time, but he called me and told me I had the wrong year. It was right after New Year’s, and I still had the—so I missed that, even. But he was a real good boss. Franklin: What kinds of things were you sampling for, when you’d take the samples? What was the purpose of the samples? Alford: The what? Franklin: What was the purpose of the samples? You’d talked earlier about taking samples. Why’d you need to take samples periodically? Alford: Well, the whole process is lined out, different columns are supposed to be a certain composition if the thing is running like it should, the flow sheet. If it’s off-standard or something, we want to know about it to correct it. That’s mainly the reason for the samples. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: Occasionally, if we couldn’t get the right—well, occasionally the lab technicians that we’d send the samples to, they’d have a problem or so, and we’d have to re-sample the tank and re-sample the columns and so forth. Franklin: What was the most rewarding aspect of your work at B Plant? Alford: The most rewarding? Franklin: Yeah. Alford: I guess the people. I had a real good bunch of people and we got along very well and they were very dependable. And I learned a lot along the way. Let’s see. After B Plant, I went to the PUREX plant. Franklin: Okay. Alford: And at that time, at the PUREX plant was where we had the first cesium leak in the Tank Farm in the 2-West area. That was really the first—these are million-gallon tanks, and it’s hard to measure an inch difference. An inch drop can be quite a few gallons in that tank. Franklin: Yeah. Right! Alford: But anyhow, that first leak, we went to—my engineering assistant, he carpooled with me. And he told me, I think we got a problem over in 2-West. I told him, I don’t want to hear about it now. But I heard about it the next morning. Franklin: I bet. Alford: And then my boss, Bill Harley, and I had to go down and talk to the, at that time, the AEC people. In the course of the conversation, I mentioned to them that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg and it’s inevitable that there’s going to be more. And we found out that we’ve had a lot—even in the double-shell tanks now. We haven’t ever had anything out of the double-shell tanks, but a lot of the single-shell tanks are giving us problems. That’s one of the things we’re trying to get things into the double-shell tanks, and there’s even some talk maybe of building more. I don’t know. A lot of it is politics, probably. Franklin: Yeah. So this leak you’re talking about in 200 West was in the single-shell tank? Alford: What was that? Franklin: The leak in 2-West was in a single-shell tank? Alford: Yeah, they all—2-East and 2-West were all single-shell initially. I’ve forgotten the time, but we went to double-shell tanks for additional containment. And now we’re trying to—we’ve got an evaporator running and we’re trying to move the solutions from the single-shells to the double-shell tanks. Franklin: Right. Alford: And that’s one of the things that the vitrification plant is supposed to go, but that’s why behind schedule and way over budget and so forth. Franklin: Sure is. Alford: Yeah, it is. Franklin: Yeah. I’d like to talk a bit more about the tanks. Were they intended to be long-term storage, or was there any thought given to long-term storage in the early years of Hanford production? What was the discussion about the waste problem when you started at Hanford? Alford: Well, the main emphasis at the time that I worked there, we were trying to get enough plutonium down to Rocky Flats to build a bomb. We didn’t really—had we been able to do it over again, there’s a lot of changes we probably would’ve made. But we probably did some things like when the slugs would come in on the train cars from the 100 Areas, we’d always dissolve them at night. Because there’d be a little bit of a nitric acid cloud, and we could—that’s one of the things that we had to shut the PUREX plant down, eventually. We did shut it down. We only had about probably three or four, maybe five months of processing, and we’d have processed all the fuel. But then the AEC in Washington, DC said shut it down. So that’s what we did. I kind of lost my train of thought for a minute there. Franklin: That’s okay. That’s fine, we can move on. I’d like to go back in time a little bit and ask you—so you came to Hanford in 1951, right? Alford: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So at that time, Richland was all—it was still a government town, when you moved here, right, and GE ran the town services. Alford: Right. Franklin: Where did you live when you first got here? Did you live in Richland? Alford: Yeah, we lived in Richland. Two-bedroom prefab. If I remember correctly, it was on McPherson Street. I don’t know if that’s still here or not. Franklin: It is. I used to live right—when I first lived here, I lived in a two-bedroom prefab myself, on Stanton. Alford: Is that right? Franklin: Which is very close to McPherson, yeah. Alford: Yeah. They were all Alphabet Homes. Franklin: How long did you live in the two-bedroom prefab? And how many people—did you have a family at the time? Alford: Oh, yeah. We had two kids, Christine and my son that’s—he passed away here, three, four years ago—at that time, and then middle-aged son, he was on the way. That’s why I decided that it might be better to work at Hanford than work at the farm, which wasn’t quite as reliable. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah, you had a family to take care of. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: What was your wife’s name? Alford: Beverly. Franklin: And what did she do when you lived in Richland? Was she stay-at-home, or did she work as well? Alford: No, she stayed home. She was a very good homemaker. I have to hand it to her that I’ve lived as long as I’ve lived because she’s really a good, healthful cook. Franklin: Oh, good. Alford: She cooked— Franklin: What did you think about Richland when you first moved into town? I assume it was probably the first time you’d ever lived in a government town. What struck you as—what stands out? Was there anything that struck you as odd or different about Richland when you moved here? Alford: Well, I can’t think of anything—the one thing, when I needed anything in the way of hardware, to repair something, I always had to go to Pasco at that time to get it. And then when I came back in ’54 from that one year of farming, we moved into another house, and I don’t remember what it was. But we eventually moved to Pasco not long after that, because it seemed like everything we needed was in Pasco. There just wasn’t much available in Richland at that time. Franklin: Right, you’re saying that kind of the commercial sector was lacking. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And then did you stay in Pasco for the rest of your time at Hanford? Alford: Yeah, then we lived in Pasco for—I don’t remember now when we moved to Pasco, but, yeah, we were still there and we moved around a few times. But we’re— Franklin: How did you—I assume when you first came to Hanford, you had to take the bus out. Did you take the bus out to work? Alford: Yeah. Franklin: Can you talk about that? What was that like? What kind of schedule did it run? Alford: I worked on the day shift all the time that I was out there. I didn’t have shift work to do. But the buses were good. They had a lot of people that played cards on the way out and on the way back and whatnot. But I didn’t get involved with that. But it was a chance to get caught up on some reading and things like that. But later on, I started driving, because I would, quite often, be in a meeting that was still going on when the buses left. So I either had to get out there and hitchhike or—I had a government car quite often. But many times, I finally just decided just to drive and then I could—because it seemed like we were in a lot of meetings and my boss, he was pretty good, but he had a staff meeting, he’d always have it at 11:00, so that people couldn’t hold over. Franklin: How has the Tri-Cities changed since you first moved here? Alford: How what? Franklin: How has the Tri-Cities changed since you first moved here? Alford: Oh, boy. It’s just—it’s more recent, the change I’ve seen, really has picked up the pace. It really—I can’t say, except the growth here in the past ten years has just been phenomenal. Franklin: Were you working—you were working out onsite when President Kennedy came to visit. Alford: Yes. Franklin: Did you go to see him? Alford: Yes, I did. Franklin: And did your family come as well? Alford: And I think my wife and I came. I can’t—but not the kids. The kids were in school. Franklin: Okay. What do you remember about that day? Alford: Well, I thought he did a nice—he was a very, very good speaker. I always liked him; he was a Navy man just like I was. Franklin: Oh, okay. Alford: He was a good democrat. Franklin: Okay. So I guess we’ll go forward again. Thanks for—I’m always interested about the social aspects of Tri-Cities in the past. So you were at—we talked about the tanks, and then the leaking. And then you were at PUREX plant when it shut down, right? Alford: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So after PUREX plant shut down, you went to work for the Basalt Waste Isolation Project. Alford: Yeah. There’s a little story there that— Franklin: Okay. Alford: I probably—I don’t—when the leak—when we went downtown, there was a meeting with DOE—DOE, you know, runs the show. I don’t know if this—heads have to roll when something happens. Franklin: Right. They sure do. Alford: The supervisor on the 2-West Tank Farms, we had to walk him off the plant. My Tank Farm manager had to walk him off the plant. And I’m not going to name names, but—and then my Tank Farm manager, I don’t know how exactly he—he got sidelined. You might also—I got sidelined. I moved from an operations manager to a staff manager on a slightly different job. The operations—it was, you might say, a slight downgrade. But my boss, Bill Harley, I think he—I forgot what happened on him right now. Anyhow, quite a few of us got penalized one way or the other. I don’t know if this is something that it should go into the records or not. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, I think— Alford: It’s just one of those things that happened. Franklin: Sure. Alford: Anyhow, I went to the staff manager for a while but I don’t know how long I was in that now, but it was just administrative work. Then I moved downtown to the Basalt Waste Isolation Project. That was pretty interesting. The problem there, we were testing the basalt in Gable Mountain to see if it would be a suitable location for highly radioactive waste casks. Solidified casks. Due to the high radiation that would be, the tunnels had to be self-supporting. We couldn’t use timbers because they wouldn’t hold up. So we took core samples of the basalt to see if it was under stress. When we pushed the two-inch core sample out of the gun, it would just pop off like checkers, and that told us that it was under stress, and it would never work. At that time, I had a talk with my boss about whether we should just ‘fess up to the fact that it’s no good and we might as well not waste any more taxpayer money, but that was the wrong thing to say, too. So it wasn’t long after that, I was, I think, in the basalt project. I think probably a couple, three years. And I also at that time, I was downtown, and I used the kind of flexible hours and I was starting to farm. And so early in the morning I’d make the rounds of circles to see if everything was all right. Then I’d call my friend that I later on worked for to tell him it’s fine, and then I’d go to work. And I would be able to—I got my time in, but I got a little bit different hours than some of the others and it worked out pretty well. After a couple, three years on that, I decided to retire. It was after kind of—you might want to edit this out, too. My boss sent me out to talk to the psychiatrist. I called him the shrink. He happened to be—after he was the head of the—superintendent of Pasco Schools, I think. But anyhow long after that I decided to go farming full-time. When I didn’t have a long commute to Hanford, I suddenly found myself with a lot of spare time. Along with the spud farming and so forth, I decided to put a vineyard in, a wine grape vineyard in Block 1. We did that—I think that was 1982 that I retired. ’82, yeah. We put the first half of the vineyard in in 1983 and the second half in 1985. We got crops and we didn’t intend to stay in business, but I had Dr. Clore, my consultant at that time. When we got a crop, the varieties and the yields and whatnot established on the vineyard, that’s when we decided to sell it. That’s what our original plan was. It was located along the river, a good location, but I had grown spuds prior to that, but it was a little too rocky for spud-growing, so that’s why we put the vineyard in. Franklin: What did you do after you sold it? You just retired full-time? Alford: Yeah. I retired and I farmed full-time, spuds and corn and wheat, down in Oregon a little bit. But most of it around here. And then the wine grapes. Franklin: Okay. Oh, sorry, were you going to say something? Alford: Pardon? Franklin: Oh, nothing, never mind. In what ways did the security or secrecy at the Hanford Site impact your work there? Alford: Did--? Franklin: How did security and secrecy affect your work at the Hanford Site? Alford: Well, we had to, one thing, if our filing cabinet wasn’t locked, security would make the rounds, and if it was unlocked, they would call you at home and you—we didn’t have to immediately go out, but the next morning we had to out and verify that everything was the way it was. When you’ve got four drawers and they’re not all secret documents, but there’s enough there that there’s no way that I could remember what was—but we managed to get by it. Franklin: Did that ever happen to you? Alford: No. Franklin: Oh. Alford: No, but another thing that’s a little bit humorous that happened to be at B Plant was, I would find orange peelings on my desk sometime when I’d come in. And we finally tracked it down. I had the shift people to keep an eye out, and it was a raccoon that came in and floated around and got in the waste basket. [LAUGHTER] That’s where he— Franklin: That’s pretty amazing. All that security and the raccoon was just kind of moving in there as he pleases. Alford: He was—I don’t know what kind of clearance he had or not. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you ever encounter any snakes? Alford: Not that I can recall. Franklin: Okay. Any other ways that secrecy or security impacted you when you were working there? Alford: No, I don’t think so. I was pretty careful not to bring stuff home. Because it was—Patrol—I very seldom brought work home. I never brought anything home, you know, that required a Q clearance. Franklin: Okay. It says here in your bio that at times you accompanied the personnel department on trips to universities to interview students to work at Hanford. Alford: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk a bit about that. What kinds of people were you looking for? Alford: Yeah. We usually, I would go as an operations-type. But the personnel office, they’d invite maybe an engineer, they’d invite me and a manager or something like that. We were looking at third-year kids, mostly. Most of my—I can’t remember every—University of Colorado and University of Wyoming and Brigham Young University, and Utah State were some of them. I guess there were others. But if a student looked like a reasonable hire, we’d bring him in for an interview. And then somebody—but there were only third year students, so—I’ve forgotten now. There’s—I can’t recall just exactly how that intervening year, that subsequent year, how we handled that. But the personnel department would keep in touch with these students that looked good to us. But we didn’t have the authority to hire anybody in, but we were just scoping— Franklin: Did you ever get asked any strange questions by students, or did they ever ask you things you couldn’t talk about? Alford: They what? Franklin: Did they ever ask you any strange questions, the students, or— Alford: Oh, they may have. But I can’t recall. In Salt Lake one time, I was interviewing in the morning, and I went out to lunch—you know, it’s right on the leeward side of the Rocky Mountains. We had quite a snowfall. Oak Ridge, I had to go there a couple of times. I think I’ve forgotten—anyhow, the place we stayed at—these trips are all set up for us—the place I stayed at, they had a flood or I’ve forgotten what the deal was now, but I had to eat down in the basement. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That doesn’t sound like too much fun. My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Alford: Would you repeat that? Franklin: Sure. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Alford: Well, our main—I may have mentioned, I think—my main goal was to beat Germany to the bomb. Well, I can’t answer your problem directly, I don’t think. The fact that we could build buildings and we could do things—if you have a real goal in mind, a lot of times, the politics have to come separate. That’s kind of the way it was when I worked out there. We could do—even on reactors, it took us ten or fifteen years just to get the paperwork and the licensing and things like that. The Frenchmen could do all that in five years, and we knew that. But still—if we could get rid of the paperwork, it saves money and gets the job done much quicker. Franklin: Okay. Well, Doug, is there anything else that you’d like to say before we close the interview? Anything else you haven’t mentioned or I haven’t asked? Alford: No, I think you’ve done pretty good job. Franklin: Okay. Alford: Sparking my memory, but I just—I’ve kind of lost a lot of my memory now. I’m getting on in years. Franklin: No, thank you so much for interviewing with us. You’ve had a really remarkable career, and I appreciate you taking the time to share that with us today. Alford: Thank you very much. I’ve enjoyed it. Franklin: Good. Okay. Yeah. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100 Areas 200 East PUREX B Plant Plutonium Finishing Plant 234-5 Building Tank Farms 200 West Basalt Waste Isolation Project (BWIP) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1982 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Douglas Alford Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Ellensburg (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Chemistry Nuclear reactors Reactor fuel processing Description An account of the resource Douglas Alford moved to Richland, Washington in 1951 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1982. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/22/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F49e9efc7ed7bacc095bedcef21eb6485.jpg 887ecf939a38a5e1f55407d8dcfd8ea3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff77ff9580ab0f1ada7f929ccf3dbaba4.mp4 9fb6ab45a88fdc65b350f39acf3d293d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Duane Kalkwarf Description An account of the resource An interview with Duane Kalkwarf conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F51ac0fbfb6a8580f1168fe2b0d5cb12b.jpg 06747ca79c581824b42793f5fb37ef26 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F726fb539be849a83a4d821f8ce300903.mp4 ab154bf4b5b67230f98d55401ec377e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Earl Palmer Description An account of the resource An interview with Earl Palmer conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7e463ce61507106df8bccff30a3efaf7.jpg 60df77db663d1fd6738da6e5b17ccd3d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb5925324ee62156330e030ffebe83482.mp4 938cb7e10e59a093fc99433024b1d210 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ed Tupin Description An account of the resource An interview with Ed Tupin conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F625501bb1d309fbc72c0ef6c857e385b.jpg 40fb9578fe56897b898570da94fcafae https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8548fc8ad4d8525fda13bc9b417db24e.mp4 d131d527da053244e0edaf7710e5a5e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edith Hansen Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Hansen_Edith Woman one: Always ready. Man one: [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER] Woman one: Sounds like my father-in-law. Woman two: [LAUGHTER] We won’t go there, then. Woman one: [LAUGHTER] Robert Bauman: All right? Man one: Nothing wrong in there. Feel free. Bauman: All right. Okay. We're going to get started if that's okay. Can we start by having you say your name first and spell it for us? Edith Hansen: Oh. Right now? Bauman: Yes. Yeah. Hansen: My name is Edith Hansen, and E-D-I-T-H, H-A-N-S-E-N. Bauman: Okay. Thank you. And today's date is August 28 of 2013. And we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington State University-- Hansen: I'm a little hard hearing. Bauman: Okay. Should I scoot closer? Yeah? Man one: Yeah, absolutely. Bauman: Okay. I'll scoot closer, if that's all right. How's that? Is this going to be better? Are you going to be better--? Hansen: Yeah. Bauman: Okay, great. So let's start by just having you talk about your family and how and when they came to the area here. Hansen: Well, I wanted to start back--[LAUGHTER] Bauman: Go ahead. Hansen: And in 1875, this was nothing but a cattle range. And there were just--nobody lived here, just a person who had a lot of cattle. And he was the postmaster for the whole area. And in 1878, Ben Rosencrance bought him out, or bought out the area around the mouth of the Yakima River. And he was a stock man, too. And he bought the 16 sections at $0.50 an acre. In 1883, the Northern Pacific Railroad completed their line from Spokane to Ainsworth. And Ainsworth was what they called Pasco at that time. Now the Federal Homestead laws were established in 1888. Now Ben and his wife married on November the 3rd, 1880, in Pendleton. And their honeymoon was the ride from Pendleton to the ranch. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Hansen: And they operated a stock ranch. And if they wanted any groceries, they had to go to Walla Walla for store. Coffee they bought in 50-pound sacks. And they went about once a year. And fabric was $0.05 a yard, and they bought it by the bolt. [LAUGHTER] And the missus--that was her honeymoon. [LAUGHTER] And there was no house. I don't know just what kind of a structure they lived in, but it was pretty minimum. And she never saw another white woman for six months. Now he--when that law went through, the Federal Homestead law went through, he filed for 1,700 acres. And he had timber claims and mineral claims. And [LAUGHTER] he just signed up for everything. Well, one man was unhappy with him and didn't think that that was fair because there was no timber in this area. And so he rode his horse over to Walla Walla to protest. [LAUGHTER] Well, Rosencrance found out that he was going over there and report him to the authorities because there was no forest--there wasn't no trees. So they went down to the river, and they dug up a bunch of willows and transplanted them. [LAUGHTER] And I don't know what kind of a housing arrangement they had, but it wasn't much. But they moved it up there and put those willow trees in there. [LAUGHTER] And they called that their forest. Anyway. [LAUGHTER] Oh, she washed clothes and draped them over the sagebrush. [LAUGHTER] They didn't have any clothes lines or anything. And so but anyway, they were set for when the authorities came down to see their forest, they could see the willow trees. And I never did hear just what kind of housing they had. But it was pretty minimum. Now after they'd been here a while, she said they should have a school. And she talked Mr. and Mrs. Harry Van Horn to come and homestead. And they picked out some land that they didn't build, or they gave it to them. I don't know. But anyway, she talked them into coming here because Mrs. Van Horn was a school teacher. And she thought there should be a school teacher in this area. And she was paid $1 a day to be a teacher. And the kids all came of their own expense, either with a wagon or a sled. In the wintertime they used a sled and came to her house. And they would bring their own chair or stool--whatever they were going to sit on [LAUGHTER] because she didn't have things for them to sit on while she was teaching them. Let's see. Oh, in 1883, the railroad was building the railroad bridge across the Columbia. And they had a lot of people here come in for construction of this bridge. It was a pretty big deal to put this bridge clear across the Columbia. And they were noted for gambling and saloons. And Pasco got a really bad reputation. [LAUGHTER] My mother's grandfather over in Germany heard about it. [LAUGHTER] And they didn't want him to raise his family near that Pasco [LAUGHTER] wild town. And now there was a family, and that was Amy and Alex McNeil. And they came in 1883, and they wanted to build a house with lumber. And they had to go to Bickleton to get lumber. There was nobody selling house lumber. But they built their house. And what they did were they were panning for gold. And by this time now, they could buy groceries in Ainsworth or Pasco--I mean all one place. But they didn't have to go to Walla Walla for their groceries anymore. Now the Clements came in early, too. That was an early family. And their daughter was married to a Bauer, and he died. But that's when the Clements settled in this area. Let's see. Oh, the post office was established in Richland in 1905. And in 1903, the Timmermans came here. And there was a--Walter Timmerman is the one who ran the ferry from Pasco to Richland. And his father and his uncle came and helped him set up the line over. So they had a ferry at that time. And they had rates to ride on the ferry. If you had sheep, they were $0.01 a sheep. [LAUGHTER] If you were having pack animals, they were $0.25 for a ride. If a person road on a horse, that was $0.50 from Pasco to Richland. And then a team in a wagon or a buggy was $1. And then later on they had automobiles and trucks. And they were $1 each. Now those were some of the earliest families that settled in this area. Now my grandfather Bremer was living in Seattle. And the only work he could get in Seattle was down on the waterfront. And so every morning, he would get up and go down to the waterfront and hope that somebody was unloading a ship or loading a ship. And that's where all the men were. And my grandfather quite often got work because he was a big man and strong. And that's what they wanted to load these ships up or to unload them. But he hated that rain. And standing in that rain, sometimes for quite a while before somebody chose him to work for them, was real disgusting. And so he read in the newspaper that there was a man over in Kennewick, and he wanted his family, who were living in Seattle. They had a wagon. They had a team and eight children. And they advertised for a driver. Now there was a really bad winter that winter. And there was no highway. And of course, there were no restaurants and no cafes or anything built along the way. And so they had the eight children in this wagon. And of course I imagine some of those older boys probably were walking because [LAUGHTER] I don't know that the team could handle everybody in the wagon. But anyway--and they had to stop and cook their meals for those kids and themselves. So Grandpa said he would do that. He wanted to see what was over here in eastern Washington. And so they started off. And he didn't keep a diary, or didn't write down just what they did every day. But the winter had been really bad. And the snow was melting, and it was making streams across the trail. And so they would have to stop and shovel in dirt so they could get the wagon through. And then once in a while there were trees that were down. And they had to cut limbs off and drag those tree limbs and get the road clear so they could get that wagon through. I don’t know how--it would've been interesting if he could have told us how long it took them. But you know, you have to feed those kids three times a day and then fixing the road on your way over--it wasn't easy. And then when he got up to the pass and he came over the pass, all the area around Ellensburg and that area, the farmers were out, and they were farming. And the sun was shining, and they were getting ready for crops and things. He said, this is heaven. [LAUGHTER] He's never going back to Seattle! [LAUGHTER] And things went much better once they got over the hill. And they got that family delivered to Kennewick. And then he got a hold of his wife, probably--I don't know whether they had telephones or not. But maybe they just wrote. But anyway, he got hold of her and said, you're going to buy tickets on the railroad, and you're coming in to Kennewick, and I'll pick you up in Kennewick. So then they came to Kennewick. And about that time, Rosencrance, the man who had bought all that land, he wanted to get some irrigation going because he knew this was good land and all he needed was water. So he put in the water wheel. And that was in 1894 that they built that water wheel. And Grandpa got a job on finishing it up. It was in construction when he arrived. But he worked to finish it up and then get the water--I don't believe I put down how much. But anyway--oh, what happened to my pictures that I brought? Bauman: Oh, they're right here. I'll bring them. Oh, it’s okay. Hansen: Thank you. Hmm. Now you've probably all seen the picture of the water wheel. That was the first irrigation in this area. And well, this is the original picture. And my mom had that. And a lot of people borrowed that, and they've enlarged it. And they're all over. You've probably seen a half a dozen pictures. But the people, when they enlarged it, they took all the people off. And I have here a list of all the people who are standing on this bridge. And by that time, my grandmother and her kids were all standing on the bridge. It was 16 feet wide and 32 feet high. And it had a capacity of 320 gallons per revolution. And so it dipped down in the water and get this 320 gallons and lift it up to the top and then put it into a ditch. And the ditch would take it to the farmers that were going to use it. Bauman: And where was the water wheel? Hansen: Now they quit being in the lady's house for school. There were more people moving into town--moving into the area and buying farms. And so they built a school. And it was located out--well, now the highway from Kennewick to Richland, just before you get the turnoff to Richland, it was in that area. And my mom went to that school. And they had school from October ‘til March because the kids worked in the fields the rest of the time. But they could be spared during the winter months. And if they got any kids that were graduating from 7th or 8th grade, then the school—I mean the state would send tests from Olympia. And they had to take those tests and see if they'd learned at this little country school enough to be ready for high school. Now about this time, there was a Thad Grosscup, who was a lawyer in Seattle. And somehow, he found out that this was really good country and good farming country. And so he was a lawyer for big railroads over there in Seattle and he had quite a bit of money. He bought 1,800 acres. It's about eight or nine miles out of Richland. And he wanted to build a canal. And I don't know who built that dam, whether he built that dam or whether—but anyway, the dam created the water to go in the ditch. And so he had people out there building this ditch because he wanted to irrigate those 1,800 acres. And my grandfather and his boys went out to make this ditch and to help with it--get this farm going. And my mother went to cook for the people that were working on this place--the farm. Now the railroad bridge was finished in 1889. And before that--before 1889, they didn't have a way to get the railroad cars from the Pasco area across the Columbia. And so they used a steam ferry. They'd run a few cars on the steam ferry, go across the river, put them off, come back and get some more. And so you could see that it was a real aggravation for the railroad [LAUGHTER] to move a whole train that way, but they did it. But then they finally got that bridge finished. And then they could run the cars across the Columbia. And that was a big deal. Now about this time, there were so many farmers coming in and buying up land, and, well, all along. And we were in Yakima County at this time. And Yakima County said, we're getting too big--too many people. And so we're going to divide it. And so they broke off a piece on the lower end here. And they were going to—they kind of thought of Benton. But they said they couldn't do that because the post office said, you can't--well, it was Benton for a couple of months. We became Benton County, and then they tried--anyway, the state said you couldn't have, because they had another section, and it was too close. And they said you couldn't name it that. But anyway, they had quite a time. They named it three different times. But it finally became Benton County. Let's see. Oh, in 1907, they decided that this was a good place to raise pheasants and quail. And so they brought in starters and turned them loose. And nobody was supposed to shoot them in 1907. But in 1908, they said there'd be foul for them to shoot. Now 1907 was the first automobile in the area. And the population had doubled. And they had more kids in the school. So they put in a second floor in the schoolhouse. In 1908, they got telephone service. In 1909, that was the first Richland Bank. And in 1912, they built the new high school. Now Amon came in about this time. And he bought most of the land from Rosencrance. Rosencrance had been running cattle and stuff. And Rosencrance is the one that built the big wheel and started the irrigation. And when that irrigation got started, why, then people came in to farm. And finally in 1905, they decided they could call it Benton County. [LAUGHTER] They had quite a time on the name. And there was a man named Raditz. And my grandfather was Bremer, and they built a hotel in Richland. And it had 20 rooms, and it was 30 by 60 foot. And they had a feed stable and a hardware store, and a post office was in the grocery store. And they bought bonds for a new schoolhouse. And the river traffic was lively. And they had daily service from Kennewick to Priest Rapids. Let's see. Amon bought Rosencrance out and sold ranches and stuff. And--oh, wrote my notes in a hurry and can't even read my notes. Bauman: It's okay. Hansen: [LAUGHTER] Anyway, Richland was growing. And I have a picture here of Richland about that time. And this was the John Dam Grocery store. And this was Murray's Hardware store. And this was Van’s, which was a confectionary--sold pop and ice cream in a little store. Now let's see. I think when Amon bought out Rosencrance, that was the end of the water wheel. They didn't use it after that. Amon, he went for gas pumps. I think I read we got our telephone in 1908, and the Richland Bank in '10. I think I read that. Now in 1915, oh, my dad came in here from Iowa. And of course, he wanted to farm and wanted to be with farms. So he got a job out at the Grosscup's ranch. Grosscup was the lawyer over in Seattle. And he had a son, but he wasn't a farmer. He came over here and lived [LAUGHTER] kind of to keep him out of his father's hair in Seattle. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, my dad got a job with him. And so he wasn't too long till he was managing the work crew that were farming out there. And Mom—they had asked her when they got the ditch built and all this farming under control, they asked her to stay on as cook. So she was the cook, and they built quite a large house for all the employees that were working with them. Thad and his family had a nice home. And Thad didn't do any farming. He just kind of--he was there. [LAUGHTER] He was out of the hair of the people in Seattle. But my dad was running the farm, and my mom was cooking for all these. And they got married. And they lived on in the big building. They had quite a few people working for them--working there. Now my dad worked for Grosscup for a number of years. And then he finally bought a piece of property. He bought, I think it was 60 acres. And then he started farming for himself. He took the lower 60 acres. And Grosscup was selling off to other farmers, too. He sold several pieces. Now I think that that was the things that I thought might be interesting to bring you up to when there were more people in Richland. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. Can I ask you, what kind of crops did your father grow on his land? Hansen: Well, he raised hay. And that shows them putting the hay in the haystacks. And that's the way they did it. And they had these great big haystacks. And there were quite a few herds of sheep up the valley--oh, Lind or up in there. And they would take their sheep in the summer to the forest. And they could let them run in the forest. But in the wintertime, they would come down and bargain for the hay. And they would bring their herd in, and they would feed it right out of the haystack. And I don't know how my mother did it, but my mother could figure out how many tons of hay there was in a stack, so many feet long and so high, with an oval top. And they'd been in there. The hay had been sitting all winter, you know. And then they'd bring the sheep in there and feed them. And then you got the fertilizer on your land, too, because they'd eat the hay and leave the fertilizer on the land. It worked real well. And then when your hay was all gone, they'd go to another neighbor and buy his hay, and the same thing--they feed it there. So that's what a haystack looked like. And now my dad was from Iowa. So he had to raise corn. And he raised corn for his chickens. And you can see that the corn really did well. And then later, when asparagus came into this country, why, then he plowed up a lot of his land and put it into asparagus. We had 16 acres of asparagus. Now almost everybody in Richland had asparagus. But they had an acre or an acre and a half. And dad had 16 acres. But anyway, he'd go down to Kennewick and get some fellows that didn't have work and bring them out. And Mom would feed them. [LAUGHTER] And they would work for him through the asparagus season. Now you know we have good-looking buses now. And now this is the kind of bus that we had for when I started the school. I started in 1930 going to school. And this is the kind of buses we had. Bauman: And where was the school? Where was the school? Hansen: In Richland. We all came to Richland. And I think I have some pictures. Oh, this is a picture--this was when my mom was going to school. And this is the entire Richland school at the time my mom was going to school. And there was a vessel got frozen into the ice. And it was wintertime, and they couldn't get it out. And so the teacher thought it'd be a good trip for the school. And so this was the whole school. And you can see some of them are little, and some of them are big. And that's my mom in the plaid coat. [LAUGHTER] But that was their day tour. Now, I don't have a date on this. But my dad's brother is on here, and my mother's brother is on here. And this was the Richland baseball team. And this man bought land from Grosscup, and he lived across the street from us. And we knew everybody in Richland. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Hansen: Now, this is the school that I went to school in. This is Richland, and eight grades in this building. Now this picture, this shows the Methodist church. And this is the grade school, and this is the high school. And you can see, we didn't have fancy streets at that time. This was my graduating class, class of '42. Now there's 12 pictures. But two--the picture was taken before we graduated. When we actually graduated, there were 12 in my graduating class. Now this was the high school. And this was everybody that was in the high school at that time, and I don't see a date on there. But I think probably in the '30s, maybe '40s. Now and this is another one. And this was 1940. And this is the whole Richland school. And that were the things that I thought might be interesting. Now did you have some questions you were going to ask me? Bauman: I do, yeah. I wanted to ask you about the school--going to school in Richland. What was it like going to school in Richland? And do you remember any teachers in particular? Hansen: Oh, yeah. I should have brought the picture with the teachers. [LAUGHTER] Hansen: We had eight people in our building. And the eighth-grade teacher was the principal. So that was the staff. The complete staff was eight when I went to school. Bauman: What about churches? What church did you go to? Hansen: I showed you the picture of the Methodist church, and that was the big church. We were Lutherans, and we had a little bitty church. And [LAUGHTER] they were teaching--having the minister in German and things in connection with the church in German. But my mom just really worked it over with my grandfather. [LAUGHTER] She said, you ought to be teaching in English. And then the kids would get something out of it because they were getting English in school. And but anyway, it was a tiny church. And I really think the Catholics all went to Kennewick. And I think that that's about what we had in the way of churches. Bauman: I asked you about your farm. Did you have electricity on the farm or a telephone? Hansen: We got electricity in 1938. Before that, we had carbide. Do you know carbide? Bauman: Mm-mm. Hansen: Well, it's a gas. My dad went down to Kennewick. And the man said, now, don't let anybody touch this but you. You need to do this. [LAUGHTER] And my mother run it all the time. But you put this product in water, and it created a gas. And we had three bedrooms upstairs. So we had three gas deals up there. And we had a light in the living room and the dining room that was with the gas. [LAUGHTER] But they didn't think a woman could handle the—[LAUGHTER] But they didn't know my dad. My dad was a farmer. He wasn't [LAUGHTER] a gas man. Mom took over the gas. But in 1938, the electricity came in. And that was wonderful. We started off with, we bought a refrigerator. And then we had, of course, the electric lights. And then we got other appliances after that. Bauman: And what about a telephone? Did you have a telephone at all? Hansen: [LAUGHTER] Well, they put in a telephone back many, many years ago. But when my dad would want to call—make a phone, there would be some neighbor women visiting on the telephone. And he got so mad, he took it out. [LAUGHTER] Hansen: We only had it for a year, I think. And he got so mad at the women visiting on the telephone [LAUGHTER] that we never had a telephone until later on, my older sister had problems. And she moved in with her two children. And of course, she put in a telephone, so that they had it. That would have been in the '40s. Bauman: Uh-huh. And when you were growing up on the farm, did you have any particular chores or responsibilities? Hansen: Oh, we all--when we hayed, we all hayed. Mom ran the team. And well, Dad mowed it and got it raked into shocks. And then when it was the way he wanted it to be in the haystack, he'd give it a few days to cure in this shock. And then we would bring the team out. And Mom ran the team. Mom had the team. And dad would put his fork in the shock and put it on the sled. And then we kids, 7 and 8, we had our own little rake. And if he didn't get all of the little pieces picked up, we would pick them up and put them on the sled, too. And then Mom would drive it to the haystack. And Dad would crawl up on the top of the stack. And Mom ran the derrick--ran the team--hooked the team up to there. And then there were chains on this sled, and they would, when she ran the derrick, the chains would come up together. And then they'd swing it up there on the top of the haystack. And then when Dad got it just where he'd want it, then he would call her to stop the team. And then we kids would pull the--there was a rope came down. And when he got it where he wanted it, then we'd pull on that rope. And then the chains would come off and it would drop on the top of the stack. And then we'd go get another load--another load, another load. [LAUGHTER] And then, of course, we fed the chickens and took care of the chickens. And we had turkeys. I mean, we'd just have ten or 12 turkeys and just let them run loose. Bauman: Do you remember any community events--picnics, special community celebrations or gatherings at all? Hansen: Well, there was the Grange in town. And a lot of people went to the Grange. But my dad was not much of a joiner. And so he didn't ever join the Grange. But we had friends that would come. And we would go up to the dam when they were fishing. And he would spear fish. And then we'd can the salmon. And we bought an old house. I think it was built in about 1902 or '04--something like that. Wasn't much of a house. But anyway, one of the first things they did was they built a great big concrete porch. And Mom bought a piano for the girls to learn to play the piano. And we had a lot of dances at our house. The porch was wide enough and long enough you could get three square dances going--circles going on the porch. And the piano was in the living room. And we opened the door so they could hear the music. And then they did other dances, too and played cards--lots of cards. Had neighbors in lots of times for cards. Bauman: Now you graduated high school in 1942? You graduated high school in 1942? Is that correct? Hansen: Yeah. Bauman: And then the Federal government came in the following year to build the-- Hansen: Yeah. We hadn't heard one word about it. But I guess they'd already picked the location. But anyway, when we graduated, we didn't know anything about the Project. And so it was when we went to college that we got letters. And it was at Valentine's Day when all the farmers got--the farmers were out there preparing their land, making ditches, planting stuff when they got the notices to move out. And that was a real jolt when they moved the people out. But my dad didn't have to move because he lived eight miles out. And that was the Grosscup Ranch. And Grosscup was the lawyer from Seattle. He had it all worked out. And [LAUGHTER] they said it would take them too long to go through the rigmarole that the lawyer would put them through. So they just left that, and anybody that had bought land from him got to stay. Bauman: And so your parents stayed there on their land through the war and all that? Hansen: Yeah. Bauman: And where were you in college? Hansen: I went to college in Ellensburg to be a teacher. And I graduated--well, I didn't graduate. They had lost so many teachers in the Army that they would take us at three years. So I went out to teach at three years of college. And then I would go back summer school to finish up. So I got my degree. But the war was over by the time I got my degree. Bauman: And how long did your family stay on their farm? Hansen: Lyle? When did we sell the farm? Lyle: Well, [INAUDIBLE], early '70s, I think--early to mid '70s. Hansen: What did he say? Bauman: He said, early to mid '70s--1970. Hansen: Well, [LAUGHTER] I was the seller. [LAUGHTER] Hansen: But I didn't even remember what--but anyway, Dad got bad and died. And Mary moved in with her kids and took care of Mom. And then my mom had to go to a nursing home. Mary had stayed for a couple of years. That was my older sister. Anyway, we finally decided that [LAUGHTER] my husband and my sister's husband had to keep going down and things kept going wrong with it. And so we talked my sister into moving into town--the third sister. And we sold it. Bauman: Who were some of the people who lived nearest you? Who were some of your neighbors when you were growing up? Hansen: Well now, I pointed out, the McCarthys. They lived right straight across from us. Now they just bought a little place. They must have had five or ten acres. But my dad had about 60, didn't he, Lyle? Lyle: Yeah, that's what you said. Hansen: Anyway, he really farmed. But McCarthy was kind of retired. The Grosscups--they lived on their place for quite a while. And he became a county commissioner, I think. He wasn't a farmer. But he knew a lot of people. And they sold a big piece of land to--well, they sold off several pieces of land. Anyway-- Bauman: So how would you describe Richland as a place to grow up? Hansen: Oh, it was great. Yeah. We had a real good time. And we knew everybody. Anyway, when the farmers had to leave, a lot of them were really upset. I mean, they had put money into their homes and built their farms up. And they had asparagus planted. And they had cherries planted and everything, and they had to leave it all. And they looked for farms, but farms were pretty hard to come by. An awful lot of people were unhappy. But they thought it'd be nice if we could get together and see our old neighbors. So we arranged with Prosser. Would Prosser let us use their park as a get-together? So for several years, anybody who had lived in Richland could come to up there. And they sent out letters so people could visit with their old neighbors and tell about their new farms. But they were all over the state of Washington, and some went in to Oregon. But anyway-- Lyle: Mom, tell them about-- Hansen: --after four or five years going to Prosser, Richland decided that it'd be okay for us to come down and stay in one of their parks. And so then we had these get-togethers. And in fact, we still meet. But now [LAUGHTER] we're down to about eight. Bauman: Yeah. I spoke with Bob Fletcher. Hansen: Oh, you talked to Bob? Bauman: Yeah. And he talked about you getting together, yeah. Did you have a-- Lyle: That's what I was going to bring up. Bauman: Oh, okay. Lyle: That it was still going on. Bauman: Right. Lyle: Old Richland. Bauman: Yeah. Hansen: Yeah. I see Bob once in a while. Bauman: Yeah. I want to thank you very much for coming today. I really appreciate it, for coming and sharing your memories. Thank you. Hansen: Did you have any other questions you wanted? Bauman: I think I'm good. Do you have anything else you want to add--anything-- Hansen: Well, that's all the notes. I made those notes this morning. And [LAUGHTER] I didn't get everything in. Bauman: Well, thank you very much. Hansen: But I mean, I think probably my family is about the only one, you know, way back. Bauman: Yeah. Hansen: Because my mother was only about four years old when they came from Seattle. But there were a lot of people came in the '30s. And then there were a lot came in the '40s, too. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:48:43 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 216 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ~1925-today Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Ben Rosencrance Mr. and Mrs. Harry Van Horn Amy and Alex McNeil Clements Bauers Thad Grosscup Raditz Grosscup McCarthys Bob Fletcher Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edith Hansen Description An account of the resource An interview with Edith Hansen conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08-28-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Cat Dam Kennewick Railroad River https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fadf573f6b16463a33ec6849c49d23ebc.jpg 12432b847d8976b43edbd4ed179f1df6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6fb28b74865c59fa983d59478c172fcb.mp4 4fc0bcd83000ceedee84a5c50d7f1d95 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniels, Edmon Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING] Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start. Daniels: Okay. Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us. Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S. Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here? Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here. Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--? Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44. Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford? Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks. Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up? Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school. Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person? Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else. Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before? Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas. Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well? Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins. Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to? Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC. Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s? Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time? Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or? Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that. Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or? Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church. Bauman: And what's the name of the church then? Daniels: St James-- Bauman: St James. Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes. Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford? Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66. Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs? Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building. Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then? Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department. Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations? Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s. Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department? Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations? Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different. Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for? Daniels: Battelle Northwest. Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was-- Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind? Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing. Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about? Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas. Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something? Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also. Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or? Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in. Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings? Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site. Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or? Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all. Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or-- Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas. Bauman: And go from there. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind? Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no. Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact-- Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there? Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working? Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time. Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on? Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know? Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford. Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial-- Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends. Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself? Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that. Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out— Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know? Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco. Bauman: Pasco. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war? Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money. Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother-- Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes. Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas. Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S. Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you? Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different? Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that. Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there? Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers. Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about? Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today— Daniels: Hey, my pleasure. Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it. Daniels: My pleasure. Bauman: Thanks a lot. Daniels: You bet. Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING] Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start. Daniels: Okay. Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us. Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S. Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here? Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here. Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--? Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44. Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford? Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks. Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up? Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school. Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person? Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else. Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before? Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas. Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well? Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins. Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to? Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC. Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s? Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time? Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or? Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that. Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or? Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church. Bauman: And what's the name of the church then? Daniels: St James-- Bauman: St James. Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes. Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford? Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66. Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs? Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building. Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then? Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department. Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations? Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s. Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department? Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations? Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different. Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for? Daniels: Battelle Northwest. Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was-- Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind? Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing. Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about? Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas. Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something? Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also. Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or? Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in. Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings? Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site. Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or? Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all. Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or-- Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas. Bauman: And go from there. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind? Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no. Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact-- Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there? Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working? Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time. Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on? Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know? Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford. Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial-- Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends. Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself? Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that. Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out— Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know? Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco. Bauman: Pasco. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war? Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money. Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother-- Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes. Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas. Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S. Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you? Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different? Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that. Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there? Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers. Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about? Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today— Daniels: Hey, my pleasure. Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it. Daniels: My pleasure. Bauman: Thanks a lot. Daniels: You bet. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 30:04 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area Building 703 Building 3706 Building 325 Building 100F Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca.1966-2006 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. E. M. McGee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edmon Daniels Description An account of the resource An interview with Edmon Daniels conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. 200 Area 300 Area Building 100F Building 325 Building 3706 Building 703 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Faf8bf2f6d81c67e9ef7b69c434942a5d.JPG 892474e4e04b14d934a370dec4b58640 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F946842f661eb058d45b55d8d452c8e62.mpg 0d55695013e65fd959b507d2a6d5dd91 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanessa Moore Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Ash, Sr. Location The location of the interview Home of Edward Ash, Sr. (Pasco, WA) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [camera operator]: Sound check. Vanessa Moore: Sound check? For me? [camera operator]: Yeah, for both of you. Moore: Okay. State your name and address one more time for me, Mr. Ash. Edward Ash, Senior: Edward L. Ash. 923 West Leola, Pasco, Washington. [camera operator]: Okay. Moore: Okay. [VIDEO CUTS] Ash: --L. Ash-- [off-screen]: Look this way. Ash: Huh? [camera operator]: It doesn’t matter. Moore: We’re just checking the sound. Go ahead. Ash: Oh, you want me to look at you, huh? Moore: Yeah. Ash: Oh, okay. Moore: --story that goes with whatever I’m asking about to tell that, or kind of elaborate on the answer, rather than just if I say, what year were you born, or—well, that’s not a good one. But if we were to say something where you could just say “yes” or “no,” it helps us to hear a little bit more, okay? And I’m gonna try to talk not too much so that we can allow you to do that and he won’t pick me up on here— Ash: Oh, that’s okay. Moore: --so much. So if I hesitate and I go like this, I probably mean, keep telling me about that, okay? [LAUGHTER] [off-screen]: You might want to tell him to stop. [LAUGHTER] Moore: That’s all right, that’s all right. [off-screen]: If you get him started, sometimes, boy. Moore: If I get him started, he’ll keep going? Oh, that’s good! That’s what we’re after. So you ready to go? This is another interview that’s being conducted for a project for the Triple-A-S History and Recognition Committee’s Hanford Project. My name is Vanessa Moore and today we’re speaking with Mr. Edward Ash, who worked here in the Hanford area, back in the 1940s and later. So, Mr. Ash, I appreciate you taking time to talk with us today, and just wanna ask you a few questions. First of all, I would like to know when exactly did you arrive in the Tri-Cities and tell me a little bit about that. Ash: When I was over in Tri-City. Let’s see. We went over to Tacoma. Let’s see what year—’46—wasn’t it in ’46 we came from Tacoma? [off-screen]: I think it’s ’47. Moore: ’47? Ash: Yeah, ’47 was when we came from Tacoma. Moore: You came from Tacoma? Ash: I came from Tacoma over to Pasco. Moore: Mm-hmm. You said “we,” now who came with you? Ash: Well, Forrest Lee White, he came over with me. We was a little north of Tacoma. I came over here because I was working over in Tacoma and I forgot about that job. He had been here once before, he had, during DuPont time. I wasn’t over here during the DuPont time, so he said, let’s go back over there. So we went over and he said—when we got over here, well, you understand that J.A. Jones was moving in to start back the Hanford Area. So we went down to the union hall that day and we sit up at the union hall all day long. They were calling people to go to work on the Hanford Area. So Forrest Lee said I’m going over to the pool hall and shoot some pool, he said, because, oh we may not get out now because we got to wait. I stayed at the union hall and they kept calling up and the business agent was saying, we’re calling just the union members now, and everybody that’s going over are union members, union. I said to myself, I said, why is all them folk union members? So I sit down there until 12:00, and the guys sort of scattered. So I walked up there and I said, I’m from Tacoma. I used to be in the union myself, I said, but since I worked in civil service, then I went back to the union told me I had to, if I come in and pay all my initiation fees up, that I could go back in. So I said I’d come over to Pasco and rejoin the union and get back in the union. If I wanted to go back to Tacoma, I’d go back to Tacoma. Moore: What union was that? Which union? Ash: Laborers’ International. Moore: Laborers’? Ash: So I said, well, one thing I might like to ask you. He said, what? I said if I pay all my initiation fees and everything, could I get in? He said, can you pay all the initiation fees at one time today? I said, yeah. He said, okay. So he wrote down a receipt for the job. So then I didn’t have no way of going to the job, because Forrest had the car. So I went over to the pool hall and I told Forrest, boy, I got hired out. He said, yeah? I said, come on and go with me. Moore: Tell me your friend’s name again? Ash: Hmm? Moore: Your friend’s name? Ash: Forrest Lee White. We went on back over to the hall, and I asked him what about—this guy got the car. Could we get him out, too? He said, yeah. And so we got him out. So then we went on out to Richland the next day. J.A. Jones just moved in and they didn’t have no tools over there to go to work. So we got there and they told us, well, we just gonna sit around until the tools come in, but nobody have to leave the personnel office. You have to come in here at 8:00 and you stay here and sit out there and go to sleep or whatever you wanna do until 4:30 in the evening. Moore: That’s easy work. Ash: He said, y’all will get paid for sitting up here, he said, until we get the tools and start up working. So we went there everyday for two weeks and we draw a paycheck before we ever did a lick of work. Moore: [LAUGHTER] What kind of work would you eventually be doing? Ash: Well, I worked in the Laborers’ all the time. The Laborers’ District. Moore: Uh-huh, with J.A. Jones. Ash: Let me see, J.A. Jones had the Hanford Area until—you see, they had taken the whole Hanford Area. Moore: This was for construction work? Ash: Yeah, construction work. Construction, and then after construction work, why, then they’d take you over to the reactor and everything over there, too. Moore: What buildings did you work on? Ash: Well, I can just about call every building they have. I worked on first over in 300 Area, I worked on there. Then I worked at 34-5. I worked at 100-H, B, C, D, DR, K East, K West, all of the N, and I worked at K East and I worked at all the other Hanford buildings. But I done worked over the whole place from every building from 300 and all the 105s and everything. That was on the river, on the riverside. Moore: Could you describe for me the type of work that you did? Ash: Well, the type of work that I did, I first went there, I started working in the construction part. I helped to build, I built all the 105 area. We got them built and then we helped them putting in the machines and everything in. Moore: Mm-hmm, so was it like concrete work? Ash: It was concrete work and I worked some of everything. You know when you’s a laborer, you do some of everything. I worked with the cement finishers, I worked with the electricians, I worked with the pipefitters, I worked—I just worked with every craft that was there. Then when they got the building all finished and then they went in, then you—I got my Q clearance. I think me, myself and another white guy was about the first ones that got a Q clearance. The reason I got my Q clearance as quick as I did because I worked for the US Navy supply base in Tacoma during the war. So I got my Q clearance about the same week when I put in for it. Moore: So it didn’t take a long investigation for your clearance? Ash: No, it didn’t take no investigation at all, it didn’t. Because when I put in for it, why, I’d just left Tacoma from the US Navy supply base. I worked there all during the war, see, I did. Moore: What kind of work did you do there at the Navy? Ash: Well, I worked there shipping and receiving and all. Then I was working in the warehouse, and we were shipping stuff overseas where the people were fighting at, and armor. Then they come to the place where we had to—everything that was going overseas had to be waterproofed. Like jeeps, all that different stuff going had to be waterproofed. So the ship would sink, all that stuff would float and they can pick it up later. So after they classified me in army for number one, I suppose, I went in the service. Then one of the head lieutenant come out there one day and asked me, how would you like to be deferred? I didn’t know what deferred was. I asked him, I said, what’s that gonna be? He said, well, your supervisor said you’ve been doing a good job of waterproofing all of this stuff that’s going overseas. He said, they done give you your papers. I got a bunch of women and men both, you’re the overseer of it. So they want to keep you here because you’s qualified for this. So I said, okay. So then he went and fixed up the papers. I didn’t have to go the army, so he said, now, you, in a few years, you probably have to go when this run out. But it didn’t run out until V-J Day when the whistle blow. The whistle blow like the day that my papers run out, tomorrow. Moore: And that’s when it was time to come to Pasco? Ash: Yeah, after a while, I worked for another building there in Tacoma. So then I came to Pasco because I didn’t like that job. But we came over to Pasco and I started working. I worked out there for J.A. Jones construction. We worked, when we first started, he wasn’t in the radiation and all of that. We built, or we helped to build, finish that high school in Richland. We built the first jailhouse, was in Richland. And the school on George Washington Way, we built that. And J.A. Jones built all the houses going up George Washington Way going down to the river, we worked in there. That school up there and going to north Richland and all those houses up there, J.A. Jones built them. So then they started to moving up, they got all the barracks built and all the trailer camps built and little things. Then we started moving out into the Hanford Area. Moore: I see. Where did you live, when you first arrived, where did you settle down? Where did you live? Ash: Well, I lived in Pasco. Moore: Okay, were there many African Americans or black people in Pasco at that time? Ash: Yeah, there was quite a few, there was. I lived in Pasco ever since I came from Tacoma. I been living in Pasco ever since. Moore: So you must like it here. Ash: Hmm? Moore: You like it here. You settled down and stayed. Ash: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moore: And you raised your family, you have—your wife is here with you. Ash: Well, I was only here one week and then I went back and got the wife and the two children and the other two were born over here in Tacoma. So we went and got them and we came back. Because I couldn’t stay over here by myself. So I went back and got my family. Moore: So you never lived in the barracks. Ash: No, I didn’t live in the barracks, mm-mm. The water got so high one time that you couldn’t get across from Pasco to Richland, you couldn’t. You had to go way around down there and come across the ferry, and come all the way around from back on the other side of the river— Moore: The ferry was— Ash: Come over there and we had to stay overnight until the water went down. But it worked it out okay. But I just never did like to stay in Richland. One thing [UNKNOWN] I didn’t. And I got to Pasco, and I went and people was in Pasco, so I just stayed there. Moore: Yeah. Do you recollect the names of some of the people who were here when you came? Ash: Oh, boy, let’s see. I can remember Newborne. Newborne was there. And [UNKNOWN] was here. Boy, I tell ya, it would really take me a good while to remember lots of little peoples. Moore: Okay, we can come back to that then. Tell me, Mr. Ash, how did you feel about working at Hanford? And I mean by that, the kind of working conditions, treatment of people, interacting with other workers? Ash: Well, after I went out there and started working in the area, I worked with lots of different people, and I got along because I tried to do my job well. I worked steady, I did. And I got with some good foremans and things, I did. And after they started Q clearing peoples to going in the Hanford Area, then I went down in the Hanford Area and we were going from building to building, started working in the radiation and stuff like that. When I got going in the Hanford Area, my superintendent was Ralph Erickson, and that’s the first superintendent that I was under. And I stayed under him 27 years, under Ralph Erickson. He really was a good superintendent. He was over all the whole 100 Area, starting at the river, plumb back all over the 100 Area, he was the superintendent over that whole area, he was. And after I went over to 2-East and all those different places, and got in there with him. I stayed in 100 Area from that time I went in there until I retired. But he didn’t stay there himself that long. I was under him 27 years, and then they sent him to another job out back down South some place— Moore: And you remained there. What year did you retire? Ash: Huh? Moore: What year did you retire? Ash: I retired, I got that in my—right in my purse here. Moore: You keep that with you. Ash: Well, you want me to get it out right now? Moore: Sure. Ash: Okay. So then they had another superintendent in the Area. He was a good guy. There’s one thing about it. I got along with black, other peoples. Now, I retired Seven and 31st, 1981. And I served out there for 35 years. Moore: 35 years. Ash: Mm-hmm. I raised up my whole entire family, raised, put all my children through school, everything on that one job. But I can say one thing, my daily prayers were, when I started working out there. I worked for lots of good peoples. I worked with lots of ornery peoples. You gonna find that everywhere you go, see. But I seen peoples quit, I seen people leave. But one thing I had in mind, I wanted to take care of my wife and children, I wanted to raise them up. And my prayer was, each day of my life, it was the good Lord to bless me to stay on that job and get along with my foreman, my supervisor, raise my children up while they get an education and put them through school, all for that one job. Moore: And your prayer was answered. Ash: So the good Lord blessed me to raise all my children up to get grown and to finish school. Me and my wife have been together for 80 years—62 years. We’ve been married that long. Moore: Congratulations. Ash: And I can say one thing—61 years. I can say one thing, one thing we can say a lot of people can’t say, we never passed a lick through fighting or mad or cussed one another out in our whole life. We really helped and we raised up our children. Moore: And that’s saying a lot. Ash: And we’ve taken care of them off of that one Hanford job. See? So I give the good Lord the credit for that. Moore: Mr. Ash, you tell me you have raised your children here and I was just curious if you could tell me the children’s names and where are they living now? Ash: Well, Angie, she’s in Pasco. And Betty’s in Pasco, and Mary’s in Pasco. They all three of them are. And Ed, he’s in Texas. What is it, the name of the Texas town? He’s in Texas. Moore: So you have four children, and three of the four are still here. Ash: I have four, mm-hmm, three girls, one boy. So after we—then we started going into the radiation and all like that. We really went through lots of radiation and laying houses, going through there. It was a job. I must say I met good peoples, I met some bad ones. But I tried to get along with everybody, and so— Moore: Let me ask you a question about that, because some of the people we’ve interviewed have talked about a time when at least the barracks, say, were segregated. Could you tell us about segregation that you observed, or was that on the job, off the job? Ash: Well, one bad part, before we went into the Hanford Area, we were in downtown Richland, and we were building all them houses and barracks and all like that, they had one superintendent over the whole job down there, he did. And when they got started, they had—this guy tried to segregate the peoples in the restrooms. He wanted the black over here and the white over there, this superintendent did. And so I just remember now who was it that reported that guy. But it was somebody reported him, and one of the head peoples came down there and told him, said, we’re not gonna have that. You’re gonna build one restroom—one for the men, one for the women. And they’re all gonna go in there. They fired that superintendent and took that job away from him. J.A. Jones put in another—J.A. Jones were building them houses. Moore: So this was not a J.A. Jones policy. Ash: Huh? Moore: J.A. Jones didn’t have a segregation policy. Ash: No, uh-unh. I didn’t have one. Of course they had peoples working there, you know what I mean, this and that. Just like, one time when I was out in the Area over there, we had—we used to—they had a big animal farm. They were testing radiation through lots of these animals. They were testing peoples, you know, through there. And so I was in there. So one guy, my superintendent, and then they had another superintendent, and then they brought in the little superintendent from somewhere down in Arkansas. And you know how a bunch of men get up. They had cows, they had a few hogs out there, and they had some hog that they were testing all kinds of animals to see how much radiation could an animal take. We had several black guys up there had a good job feeding these animals radiation to see how much can they take. Then they had a bunch of sows and a bunch of dogs and had pigs, I think. So, a bunch of men got together to come up with one standard one time. I had a couple of problems with this guy, this assistant superintendent. So we all men were working in there with the animals and all. So you know how a bunch of men get, say, oh, I’m gonna take this here for my girlfriend, I’m gonna take this here. So we had—talking about them pigs. So they had some sheep and they had—so this superintendent that they brought from down in Texas or something. Now, I’m the only black guy in the whole bunch. I worked in there one time with 60 white people, and I was the only black guy in the bunch. Course, I finally got along with them, because I’m like this, I can work with a guy all day. If he don’t want to speak to me, I don’t have to speak to him. That’s just the way I am. But this superintendent, he come in there, he ends up. So they had this little shed, and they had a whole bunch of white Chester hogs. So everybody picked hogs, some had picked a little dogs, some had picked—you know a bunch of men. So he jumps up said, he says, Ash, I pick one for you. Because he said, those sheep over there got a black head, so you pick out you one of them with a black head. I said, okay, that’s fine, that’s okay, I said. That’d give me a girlfriend, too. He said, I’m gonna take these sows, he said. They’re my girlfriend. Clean, white girlfriend, that’s mine. I said, okay. So it rocked on there for months, oh, seven, eight months. So they were trying to breed those sows and things and get a whole bunch of pigs so they could have more animals to, you know, they could feed radiation. So they had a white male in there and he stayed there, and that sow come up with piglets, and that sow got pregnant. So they killed him. They killed him. I went down there one day, there was a black male pig in there, didn’t have a white spot nowhere. I don’t think his tongue was even red. I mean, he was black from head to foot. About three months, all the white sows were coming up with pigs. So this superintendent—at that time we had a whole bunch of supers—the head superintendent and all, they were down there, going over, they’d go over and do different things. So here come Lee—that was that little superintendent I was telling you about that told me, you could—so, me and truck driver standing there, and Lee come in there. I told him, I said, watch, I’m gonna make Lee mad. I knew it would make him mad. I said, hey, Lee, come here. And he come up there. I said, look at me and all these white girls in here. I said, just look at me, all these white girls. I said, boy, we got white pigs, and I got a white pigs, I got white children here. That Lee turned red, oooooh, he turned red, he got mad, he walked on out. So the head superintendent come up there and said, what’s wrong with Lee? So the truck driver told him, Ash told him look at me and him with all these white girls. He said, Lee got that mad? He said, we can’t stand for nobody being here like that. Said, I thought Lee was a better guy than that. So they got rid off Lee. They told Lee, he’s got to get it right otherwise he’s not gonna stay. But Lee was so mad, he got rid of Lee anyway because he just didn’t like it, so they told him he had to—they got rid of him. That’s the one thing I have. Of course, it tickled me, everybody was in my favor anyway. So I had to call the business agent on one superintendent. So I got that scrape. At first, before we started, before I was union, [unknown] were getting double time for all overtime. Why, then, we had another agreement, if I were working with another guy overtime and he got double time, we got double time. Until we got [unknown]. So we had this assistant superintendent, he had just got set up there. So when I was working there, I told him, I said, don’t forget the double time now of working with these ironworkers. He said, just ‘cause you working with the ironworkers is no sign I’m gonna pay you no double time. I said, well, I’m supposed to get it. I says, that’s a union agreement. He said, well, I’m not gonna put it on your card. I said, okay, that’d be fine with me. So that Friday when I got paid off, my double time wasn’t on there. So I called the timekeeper and he said, well, let me get in touch with downtown. And the people downtown said, well, he told him not to pay me the double time. So then I called the union hall, called my business agent. He said, okay, I’ll be right out. So he came out and got with the head superintendent and had a dealing with the superintendent over the whole entire rig. He told him about it. I done called this superintendent downtown to the head office and asked him, the union told us, now listen. He said, I pulled up the main office here. I put up a picket here and then nobody would be down here working. Because the union that time had this agreement. If one union put up a picket, the other members can’t cross it. They had this agreement. No union could cross another union picket. So, he called that superintendent down there and told him. He said, well, I just felt like I had the power that I didn’t have to pay. He said, you don’t have that power. He said, I’m the only man who had the power to say what they can get. He said, you out there, you got to follow union scale. So he said, now the business agent is here, and the business agent said Mr. Ash has got to get his money before the day is out. That was Friday. He got to get him his money back out there what you was supposed to pay him. So this timekeeper brought my extra money back out there. So here come this superintendent that the timekeeper brought my extra money back. And the old superintendent passed by me. I shook my check in his face. I said, here it is, big boy. I said, it ain’t over your dead body, but I got it. [LAUGHTER] And he worked around there—we worked around there about three weeks before he would speak to me. But he found out he couldn’t do nothing about it and he finally calmed down. Moore: Yeah, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Ash: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s about the only problem I really had had. Moore: I have one other work-related question. You’ve talked about radiation and construction. Did you have any idea what everyone’s mission was and what they were working on? Ash: On radiation? Yeah, we had quite a bit of radiation. Moore: And what it would be used for? I guess I should go back, because you were after the Manhattan Project, so it wasn’t necessarily for the bomb, was it, at that time. So the mission was different. Ash: Well, you see, when we was out there, all the reactors was under radiation. Every spring of the year, they would close the reactor down and they would go through them and remodel them. They would do about five months of work remodeling them, fixing this, putting new stuff in this. All that work was radiation. You works in there for the whole time you’re remodeling. You did. See, you worked in there. I worked in radiation. I worked in the Hanford radiation. Lots of days I worked in that radiation for weeks and weeks at a time. Moore: So were the reactors producing plutonium? Ash: Well, no, we were remodeling. But the building is all crapped up with radiation. Now, some places like the Pipefitters’, now, if they had a job that they gave to them to put in some pipes, they said the radiation was too high or too strong, it had to be cut down. You know, go in there and sterilize it and cut it down to a certain point to where a person could work in there. Well, that was the laborers’ job. I was in that job like all the time. Every time I had to go in there and decon radiation, clean it up to where some crafts could go in there or leave it where we could go in there. Moore: So you were involved in decontamination. Ash: I was in that deal. Every one of the 105s had that deal. But every year, they would close down to remodel. And then you’d go in the remodel, back there, everybody went back in there, I don’t care what craft you were, you were in radiation. You had to put on, oh, we had shoes you had to put on, pair of boots you had to put on, we had to put on an extra pair of clothes. You put off all of your clothes and then you dressed in the radiation. Sometime you got a mask on, sometime you got—oh, just anything, because then when you get in there to work, you got a timekeeper in there to check how much time you can stay in there. You got a pencil in your pocket— Moore: That’s a dosimeter pencil? Ash: No, that’s just a pencil that picks up the reading of what you’re getting. You got that in your pocket. Then you got another little deal that they puts on you, that if you got radiation it’d beep—a beeping pencil. So you had an RM that do the check you out. He’s standing right out there. And if you’re out there deconning a place to where these guys can work, the RM would get you with a machine. Moore: The radiation monitors? Ash: Yeah, radiation monitor. He’d tell you, say, well, this place then is clean. This guy can work in here now for eight hours. Or he can work in here for four hours without picking up radiation. That’s what we were doing. In some places it was so hot, you can work in there under an hour, then they got to change peoples. Then when they got through decon, we got to go in, pull of our clothes, and you got three step-off pads. You got a guy helping you to undress. Now all the clothes you got on now is all hot and full of all that junk. One guy got to pull all of that off of you. He got to pull them boots off of you, and then you step on this pad. You go to the second pad, and you pull the rest of your clothes off. They supposed to be cleaned. Then you step on the next pad, and the only thing you got on there is just your shorts. Then the man come down, he check you all over. You don’t put nothing in your mouth, you don’t smoke a cigarette until you wash your hands. Until he done check you out, you don’t, until you wash your hands. Moore: So they were very careful. Ash: Yeah, mm-hmm. So then you go and you’d come out there and you’d sign out. You got to sign in on a piece of paper when you go into radiation zones, and you’ve got to sign out. And when you sign out and that’s just the way it is. And if you go in there and you got all sort of crapped out with the radiation, then they’ve got the monitor to come out there and they’ve got to clean you up. Sometime it’d take half a day to get you all clean. They got to scrub you down, wash you down, then they got to put this on, and wash you down, wear that, and check you all over again. I got so heavy one time, they had to cut a piece of hair off my head and scrape my head quite a bit. So it’s—but if a person fall into radiation, follow the—the only time a person really got crapped up, and some guy—now, I know several people have got it in their skin. If you had a cut place on yourself, you supposed to come out of there right now. But some guys, some of the people feel like they got more education than other people, they can stay in there for a while. Oh, I can do this and I can do that. That’s the time you’re gonna get caught up with it. So that’s what happened with quite a few people. But I got crapped up several times. Several times, they’d taken two and three hours to get you clean. But they gonna clean you before you leave away from there. And then you’d come back the next day, they still gonna check you again. Moore: They can’t risk it spreading. Ash: Huh? Moore: Can’t risk it spreading? Ash: Yeah. Because it is a risk. Yes, if you get it inside, you get sick. It just stay in there as long as you live, and that’s the way it is. Moore: So when the work day was over and you go home at night or it’s the weekend, what kinds of things did people, did you or your friends do away from work? Did you have social things that you did? Ash: Things we did away from home? Moore: Mm-hmm. Ash: Oh, well, I’d say I didn’t do too much. I come home and stay home. Stay home with the wife and children sometime. Sometime we’d get up there and we would go downtown some place. Sometimes we’d go out of town but by the time we’d go out of town, me and the wife and children would go in Oregon someplace, drive around. Just about everywhere where me and my wife would be going, the children was with us anyway. Moore: Was there much to do in Kennewick and Richland and Pasco? Ash: Well, I didn’t find too much to do. Of course a lot of them people I guess were going in taverns, drinking, they probably were having beer. But I wasn’t drinking so I didn’t need to go in no tavern. Moore: I hear you. Ash: So my place was, I’d go to church, this place right there. I’d go out of town some weekends. So that’s about the size of it. Moore: Okay, well, I appreciate all the information you’d given me today. After retirement, have you kept in touch with people from the Site at all? Ash: Yeah, well, since I’m retired now, I just really couldn’t, I’ve been working taking care of myself ever since I was 14 years old, 15 years old. So I just can’t—some people retire—I can say this, but we got what you call the whole J.A. Jones retirement picnic. We go to Prosser every year, there’s a big picnic, I guess you’ve heard about it. Moore: I think you told me something about it in August. Ash: Yeah, I did. And we got about three or four women there. You go there, they call the roll, how many’s gone, how many J.A. Jones left here. They call the roll, all of them J.A. Jones people that died and all of us that’s left. And you know, I go over there and I look just at the people that retired and just sit down. Boy, coming out there that can’t walk, they got on crutches and canes staggering around. But I found out one thing about it is the second—you can take a brand new car and you can sit it in that garage for two years and it’s no good. That’s right. You can’t start it. It won’t never run good. So that’s the way it is when a person just sits down. But I feel better doing something. I do a little odd jobs now since I retired. I didn’t retire and just sit down. I got me a little odd job to do. I’ll do a little hedge trimming. I fool around, I got experience on trimming shrubs and like anybody want ‘em, what shape they want ‘em, I can trim ‘em. Moore: Keeps you busy, keeps you young. Ash: Huh? Moore: Keeps you young. Ash: Yeah, so? I got some good peoples. I got [UNKNOWN]. I got my doctor, I been taking care of his place for 23 years. And I got another business guy over there. I’ve been taking care of his yard and shrubs there for 27 years. The whole west side, I worked on their yard, because I used to take care of them when I was over at Hanford part-time. So I just got to keep a-doing something. Now, you want me to feel bad, and loaf, if I can sit around here for a whole week or something like that, I’d go out of town for a whole week, I ain’t got nothing to do, when I get back here, I’m just about [unknown] I gotta get out there and get to doing something. Moore: [LAUGHTER] Well, I think you have the right idea, because it’s keeping you fit and keeping you young. Ash: It do. Well, like they say, if you used to doing something, then you got to keep active. They said that. I’ve seen too many people—I worked with a guy, him and I worked together. And I was somewhere in the neighborhood and I was way older than he was. He retired since I retired. And I met him one day down there, and looked at him. Here you come, some peoples on this side of him, other people on this side of him, holding him up so he could walk. And I’m somewhere over ten years older than he was. I asked him, what’s wrong with you, fella? He said, well, when I retired, I was gonna take it easy. He said, so I retired and I went home, I got me a case of beer, and I sit up and drink beer and I watch the football game. That case out, I go get me another case of beer, sit home and watch the football game. So I says, now, you just watched the football game too long and now you can’t walk. He said, mister, that’s about the size of it. But if you believe it or not, if you used to working, you gonna have to keep something to do. It may not be much, but you got to be active. If you gonna sit down, you ain’t gonna be there long, and that’s for sure. If you go sit down, you just gonna be— Moore: That’s good advice for all of us. It sure is. Ash: Rip Davis, one time, he was a guy—he was a head man over at the operators. He retired but like I did, and he went home, he went home and he said, I’m gonna take it easy. He hired a guy to take care of his yards, he hired a guy to take care of his shrubs and everything. I said, Rip, what you doing? He said, oh, I got everything hired out. I said, Rip, you better start a-doing something. He said, oh no. And about, oh about a year after that, I seen him, he come dragging along. He said, Ash, you looking awful good. I said, yeah! He said, you know one thing, I’m gonna run that guy off of my yard and I’m gonna start doing my yard myself. He went up there and he run all them people off his yard, he started doing it and the man looked better the next time I seen him, he looked better. [LAUGHTER] Moore: There you go. Yeah. Oh, okay. I’d like to ask permission, if it’s okay for us to film some of the photographs of your family just so we have them on tape. Ash: Yeah, that’s fine with me. Moore: And the editor may bring some of those into the final tape. So thanks for all of that information. [VIDEO CUTS] Moore: The other one is 20. He lives at home still, works for Leonard. But, yeah, they’re big boys. I wish we could recognize some people in this one, but there’s just too many shadows on their faces. Some of those workers? With those hats and everything. Ash: Yeah, those are some hardhats. I know about them. I wore them a lot. Them hardhats. You had to wear them hardhats. Mrs. Ash: When we first came in, they had a little joint down there on Lewis Street, and boy that was a jumping new place. All the peoples went. But you know it was never much [inaudible] Moore: Virginia Crippen, I heard about the Chicken Shack, and Tommy Moore’s Poulet Palace and some other places. Mrs. Ash: Virginia, she found herself having chicken [inaudible] really good. Moore: Yeah, we interviewed her too. I guess she came up just because—she didn’t ever work out there, but she heard that people were here and they could use some places to eat. And she lived out in California or Portland or somewhere and came up and opened her chicken place. Mrs. Ash: She did! Moore: She did all right, I guess. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview J.A. Jones Construction 300 Area 345 Building 100-H 100-B 100-C 100-D 100-DR K East K West 100-N 100 Area 200 East Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2012 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1947-1981 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Ash, Sr. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Tacoma (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Nuclear reactors Segregation Racism Radioactive decontamination Description An account of the resource Edward Ash, Sr. moved to Pasco, Washington in 1947 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1947-1981. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08/25/2001 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fddb4db3c62c60689139f55445db0af3b.jpg 98b8ca0aa60801a6fe319d88a15c2b43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Beck Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Edward Beck on July 31, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Ed about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can state and spell your full name for us? Edward Beck: Edward D. Beck. Last name is B-E-C-K. Franklin: And Edward? Beck: E-D-W-A-R-D. Franklin: Okay. Beck: Do you need my middle name? Franklin: Sure. Beck: Domenic. D-O-M-E-N-I-C. Franklin: Thanks. And you prefer to go by Ed? Okay, great. So, Ed, tell me how and why you came to the area to work at the Hanford Site. Beck: Well, I graduated from the University of Utah in 1973. Mostly worked in Salt Lake City doing various things. The year I graduated, there weren’t too many jobs in environmental biology, which was my degree. For a while, I worked for the state health department and then I went to work for the University of Utah in research. I later went to work for the Department of Public Safety; I was the University of Utah’s first industrial hygienist. And I started that job in March of 1981. I was starting a family; I got married in ’73. When our last child was born, it was my daughter, we were still living in Salt Lake City and she came down with a case of e. coli. Probably, we think, from an undercooked hamburger at a fast food restaurant. It was a really severe case: she spent 90 days in the hospital. It was really, really hard. I could go into a lot of detail. But I thought that I just—I had a lot of financial pressure. I was fully insured, but medical insurance was still a quagmire in those days, too. And so I decided that the best thing to do—state employment is not top dollar. And so I started looking around for where I could find another job that would make more money. I was working at the University of Utah—had been working up there for several years as the industrial hygienist—and the Department of Energy had a bunch of beagles up there that they were doing research. They were feeding beagles plutonium and americium, you know. Then they would sacrifice them and see what was cooking inside, cause of death, and what that radiation really did to the beagles. So, there was a guy named Dr. Edwin Wrenn, he was the head of the program for that. He was an MD, PhD. He was in charge of that program. So I would go up there and I would work, I would do his health and safety as industrial hygiene. All of the sudden, I guess you’d say, his department, the department of radiobiology was sacrificed to bring in new money, more money, for research in genetic engineering and stuff. So I think Huntsman came in, the Huntsman center for cancer, and there’s a bunch of other researchers they brought in with more money. So they did away—they dissolved the department of radiology and they started—they had to get rid of the beagles. The beagles had been living in kennels that were on cement, and the cement was contaminated from all their droppings. So the thing we were doing, we were cutting up the ceramic and trying to keep everybody from being exposed. And we were shipping it to a place called Hanford. Gosh, I’d never seen that before. At the same program, they also had a bunch of rooms that they were doing radiation research on, and they used to—they did several experiments there with the beagles and several types of what they called deep body, looking at the bodies to see where this stuff was located in their organs. They had some metal rooms that were built with battleship steel before the first atomic bomb so they were completely clean. That didn’t mean much to me at the time; I thought, well, that’s all well and good. But these buildings had to be torn down, too. And they were also sent to Hanford. They make up—right now Battelle has this—or they did when I retired—they have this center, actually, I wouldn’t call it a center. It’s a suite where people go and they sit for 30 minutes and they have these sensors go over their bodies and they see where they have any radiation deposited deep in their body. It’s a very sensitive thing. This battleship steel from before World War II was a very, very scarce commodity in the ‘80s. I mean, they were making all this stuff, or—DOE was more interested in, and Battelle was more interested in the battleship steel than anything. So it was shipped to Hanford and it now comprises all the shielding on that building that they’re still using today. Franklin: Ohhh. Beck: So that, you know, Dr. Wrenn, he was a little—he felt bad that his department had been sacrificed— Franklin: Do you know how to spell his name? Beck: W-R-E-N-N, I think. His name was Edwin. We kind of formed a good relationship because he was called Ed and I was called Ed, so, you know. When I was assigned to the hospital up there to do safety and health, I did a lot of work for him. They also worked with pigs. The department of artificial organs was there. You know, Barney Clark, they put the artificial heart in him, he was the first one ever, and they did it at the university. I was working there when they did that. But I used to go and measure all the noises, all the noise levels from the beagles in the kennel when they were feeding them. I made people put on hearing protection, because it is deafening. Absolutely deafening. Well over OSHA standards. The pigs were, too. You’d pick up a pig and they’d squeal. You can ask anybody at WSU who works with livestock how much noise a bunch of livestock can make in a building. To me, that was very surprising. But Dr. Wrenn told me, he says, you know, if you’re looking for a job, he says, you’ve had all this experience here, and he says, you might want to apply at Hanford where we’re sending all this stuff. It’s federal and I know they use a lot of people like you. Since you’re looking for a job, that might be a great place to apply. So I did. I did some research on it, and we didn’t have computers in those days really. I remember I was collecting—I was getting MSDSs—Material Safety Data Sheets for the university over a computer. Kind of like a fax machine and it was really primitive compared to what we’ve got today. So, I did some research and I applied with Hanford Environmental Health Foundation. I found out that they were doing all the occupational safety and health for the Hanford Site. So I sent my application in, and they sent it back and flew me out for an interview. That’s how I got here. Got the job, and I worked for—I started work August the 14th of 1989, and I’ve been here ever since. I worked for a lot of different contractors. Franklin: Sure. Beck: When HEHF went out of business, it was kind of a—it was a situation where they wanted to cut costs, I believe. And there’s a lot of politics involved in these situations. So they eliminated HEHF’s contract and they gave it to someone who, I guess, could do the work cheaper and better and that kind of stuff. So then I went to work for other contractors out in the area. But when I first came here in ’89 we were still making plutonium. It was not soon after that, though, that the Site was shut down and they started cleanup. Actually, when I interviewed, they were telling me that was coming. N Reactor was still operational and stuff like that. But they were saying that the handwriting was on the wall that they weren’t going to be making any more plutonium. Franklin: But they still knew that they would need you, though. Beck: Well, they did. Franklin: I mean, they were still actively hiring even though production was shutting down. Beck: Because they knew it was going to be a cleanup site, and any person who knew anything about Hanford, and I did, knew that they would need a lot of industrial hygiene folks. And there were a lot of people who were here that were industrial hygienists already. They’d been here from the beginning. I go to church with several—with at least one, whose name is Alan Lilly, and he was here before I was. Franklin: What was his name? Beck: Alan Lilly. I think I’ve given his name to the woman that I talked to about this interview. I think she might’ve called him already. She asked me for names of people I knew. Franklin: Yeah, we’re always trying to work those personal referrals because those are very generative. Beck: So, when I came here, HEHF did all the industrial hygiene. Not the safety part, but the industrial hygiene for the entire Hanford Site, all the contractors. Franklin: Can you explain that difference to me and anybody who might be watching? Beck: Well, safety and health, I guess you could look at as one big overall. It’s like “medicine,” right? You’ve got a pediatrician, you’ve got a brain surgeon. So as I see it, safety and health is kind that banner of “medicine.” And then underneath it, you’ve got health physics, which is closely allied but still different with usually different degrees. Then you have industrial hygiene and then you have like safety professionals. Industrial hygiene would be exposure to things like noise, particulates, vapors, solvents, those kinds of things. There’s light, various different types of light. Laser. Lasers can be—I was the laser safety officer at Battelle before I retired, for about five years. So there are a lot of things that you can be exposed to on the job that the industrial hygienist would measure. We usually did that with sampling pumps. It was very difficult at Hanford, because you always had the possibility of contamination. Franklin: Radiological contamination? Beck: Yeah. You’d collect it with your sample. Like, for instance, suppose that you were working in an area where there was a particulate that you wanted to collect. You’d have these little plastic jobbies called cassettes that you’d put on the end of a sampling pump. They’re connected by tubing and they’re attached to the person’s lapel. So they’d go in and they’d do their work and you’d collect, you’d pull air through that. And that gives you an approximation of what their exposure is. And OSHA requires that kind of sampling. That’s the basis for the exposure limits for OSHA for many chemicals. If it’s a particulate, you do it with a cassette and filter. If it’s a solvent, you do it with what’s called a sorbent tube. At the time, you did it with a sorbent tube. Things have really changed; they’ve got a lot of very, very nifty ways to sample now they didn’t have back then. Noise, you do with just a regular microphone and a recorder that records the noise levels. All those pumps have to be calibrated with class 1 calibration, so it’s very accurate. Then you’d send it to a lab. You’d take those cassettes and whatever tubes you used, and you send them to the lab. They have to be analyzed, but you can’t send them to any lab if they’re contaminated, because you’d spread radioactive contamination where they’re contaminated. So, we couldn’t use just any industrial hygiene lab. So that was what 222-S was for. That’s one of the things they did. They did the contaminated samples. People that worked at Hanford in industrial hygiene, and people that work in other radiological companies that do sampling, we had to find ways around—if you wanted to know if a sample was contaminated radiologically or not, you can’t tell just by looking at it. Franklin: Sure. Beck: So what you do is you collect two samples side-by-side, which the people working for General Electric probably didn’t have to do. One sample would do, because they were sure theirs wasn’t contaminated. You’d collect two samples side-by-side and you’d send one over to the rad—radiological people. They’d scan it doing a slow scan to see if they could detect any radiation on the filter. If they detected radiation on the filter, or if there was any contamination, then it would go to 222-S lab. If they didn’t detect any radiation on the sample, then you could send that out to another lab. It was actually checked three or four times before it went offsite to make sure nobody made a mistake, because DOE had already seen what they could do to laboratories when contaminated samples were sent. And people said, gee, we didn’t know. I even saw that while I was working at Battelle before I retired. But there were a lot of things that happened, too, where everybody’s going, wow, how’d this happen? So, anyway, that’s the basis for industrial hygiene and that’s really what we did at the Site. We also did sampling for a lot of the power plants that were onsite. There were coal-fired power plants. Franklin: Still in operation? Beck: No. No, no, no. They took those down. Those were shut down; they didn’t operate—I think it was about three or four years after I got here. I can’t remember exactly when those were taken down. But there were—1970 was when OSHA came into being. I graduated from college in ’73, and EPA came along not long after that. EPA had some requirements for power plants, for coal-fired power plants. DOE had to comply with those. They had an air quality program in the State of Washington and we had to comply with those. So we had to do what was called isokinetic sampling. You’d have to actually climb the stacks, those big smokestacks, and do sampling. You’d have to put samples in stuff, sampling apparatus. We used glass lines with—you’d put grease on the fittings on the lines to make a seal, and we’d go up there and sample those. Usually, we were a couple hundred feet up. When the wind was blowing, it was cold. And those things would move back and forth so you couldn’t always keep your glass tubing together. If that glass tubing came apart because the wind was blowing a bit and those things were moving, you know, you’d have one over here and one over here and this would move in a different, you know, so it would pull it apart. You’d have to start the sampling all over again. So we had to pay careful attention to how we did that. Franklin: How would you get up there? Beck: We climbed ladders that probably weren’t OSHA compliant. They didn’t require the fall protection then that they do now. We did everything that was required for safety. But stuff progresses over years. You know, you get better and better at it. That’s one of the things I didn’t like so much. I’ve climbed those towers and it didn’t scare me being up that high, but it did—when wind blew, boy, it was cold. It was not a good place to be. And you couldn’t pick the day you sampled, necessarily, for wind. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Beck: Not always. You’d try. But they couldn’t predict the weather as well as they can now. And Battelle used to predict all the weather on the Site, you know. They still do as far as I know. They had a lab out there. A building where they had Battelle meteorologists, they were there 24/7. I think they still might be; I’m not sure. I think they might have a lab 24/7 doing weather forecasting and stuff. Franklin: Wow. Beck: Just in case they have an incident or something like that, they know where the plume might go or know where fires might go. I think that, as I remember, that was probably a really, really good thing we had that going on when we had the big range fire out there. You probably heard about that. Franklin: Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Beck: Well. I was working out in the 200 Area. HEHF had dissolved and I had went to work for Waste Management. Waste Management had a contract out at Hanford to do many things. They day of the accident that started that fire, I was out at 200 West. I was out not too far from T Plant. I was out by the Yakima gate, kind of facing the Yakima gate, and I was inspecting a chemical storage, I guess you’d say, I don’t know what you’d call them, but they’re like the storage boxes that you see on trains that go back and forth that got the doors that open. We were putting a lot of chemicals and stuff in there, and as I remember, the painters were kind of complaining when they opened the door, they’d get chemical odors. So we were taking a look to see how we could collect samples and see what they were exposed to. And I heard the accident. I heard the collision that actually started that fire. And I heard this pop or bang. It was a distant thing. I looked—you know, you can’t see anything from the distance I was at. But not long after that, fire started. Later I heard that it was probably caused by that accident that I heard, that’s how fire got started. So when the fire really got going, I think I was out there the day after. It’s been a long time ago; hard to remember exactly when the days I worked. But I didn’t work out there for very long, because they closed the Site down and only the required people were out there. So when the fire finally was done, we all went back to work out there, and it was very different. There was nothing but dust and I guess you’d say ashes. The fire had come really close to the place I had my office. I can’t remember the number on the building. But it had come really close and actually some of those buildings had been scorched. I mean, they got really hot. They kept the fire—DOE had done some really good things. They had a lot of fire alarms around the buildings, and they put big rocks everywhere to keep the contamination down. Because when the wind blows, if you have any radioactive contaminant, it blows around. Franklin: Right. Beck: So you could almost pick the areas that had some ground contamination out there, because they were full of big rocks. Around Tank Farms, there’s big rocks. I mean, they’re everywhere. Like beds of rocks. So when the wind blows, it really stops the movement of any contamination. You’d have the RCTs that would go around with their meters, and that’s all some of those guys did was just constant surveys to see what the contamination was going. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the stories about the tumbleweeds being contaminated. At the time when they started to burn those tumbleweeds and the smoke was radioactive, they soon figured that out and quit burning the tumbleweeds. Almost all the mice had radioactive. They actually had some people from Battelle that used to go out and collect animal specimens on Site. They would come in and analyze them and they would tell them what the contamination levels were. But you’ve probably heard that story, I would suspect. Franklin: A little bit, yeah. Beck: Yeah. Well, those, when I went to work for Battelle, I was supporting those people that used the firearms to go out and collect some of the animals. Franklin: Oh, okay. Beck: Yeah. It was— Franklin: I’m wondering if you could tell me a little more about that. Beck: Well, some of that might not—might be classified still. I’m not going to say much. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay, sure, sure, sure. Beck: There’s things I’ll be very careful with in this interview, because I had a security clearance for many years. I don’t keep up with what has been declassified and what’s still classified. Franklin: Perfectly understandable. Beck: But things that are common knowledge, like the collecting the specimens, deer, rabbits, things like that and all kinds of plant stuff, that was done probably from the 1940s. But it was done much better in later years. I don’t know when they really started collecting those samples. You’d have to do research on that. But it was definitely going on when I went to work for Battelle. I think it was 2000— Franklin: And you were seeing or hearing reports of even then collecting specimens that were radiologically hot? Beck: Yeah, well, they would go out and see what they could find. Let’s see. That’s probably not classified. We had a situation with Hanford. I was still working at HEHF at the time. So it would be before I went to work at Waste Management, which I think was 1999. Not too sure; I think it was. They had a hydrogen sulfide smell out around Tank Farms. Tank Farms had odors for a long time. If you worked out there—we did a lot of sampling around Tank Farms. You’d pick up stuff in the air all the time, even in the old days. That’s because the risers—this might be my own personal opinion. I don’t know how much fact there is to this. But over the years, I always picked up this reason for why they never could put those exhaust stacks up in the air. Because if you were to put some high exhaust stacks up in the air from those tanks, you’d dissipate a lot more of those, and people wouldn’t smell it, and it wouldn’t be a problem. But to do that, you have to change your air quality permits, and that’s pretty tough to do and it would pretty hard to get the State of Washington to buy off on it. It’d be pretty expensive, because you got to put special filters. I mean, even now, those tanks, those underground tanks, they have special filters on the exhaust so that they can keep the contamination level down. You don’t stop the vapors, but you can certainly stop radioactive particles. Well, anyway, so they shut the entire Site down because of that hydrogen sulfide smell out at Tank Farms. And everybody was on, I believe they went to airline respirators or actually SCBA respiratory protection. As an industrial hygienist, you’re also very involved in respiratory protection, because you choose the respiratory protection, you make sure the mask fits. It’s all got to be to OSHA spec. You know, DOE, because they’re a government agency, they really aren’t under OSHA requirements. They’re like the Army. They’re like the Forest Service, the Parks Service. They’re really not governed by OSHA. OSHA was a law that was mostly just for people that weren’t government. I mean, you can’t tell somebody who’s in the Marines that he’s got to wear hearing protection because his rifle makes too much noise. I mean, that’s probably not going to go, because the Marine needs to hear his buddies, right, and he’s not going to put on hearing protection to save his hearing. I mean, you can see the Army operates a bit different. Franklin: Right. Beck: So most of the military and most of the government agencies are exempt from OSHA. DOE didn’t have a lot of their own standards, so they rolled over and accepted OSHA, a lot of the exposure limits and so on and so forth. But it wasn’t up—when I first came here, it was a little—It became more formalized as we rolled along, but in 1989, they were still doing pretty good on it, but there was a lot of things that they just weren’t required to do. So they later wrote those things in. But at any rate, we had this smell out at Tank Farms. This is a long story, but I’m getting to this— Franklin: No, no, no, no. Beck: This contaminants. It’s a story that I’ll never forget. So, they put us on 24/7 shifts at Tank Farms. All of HEHF’s industrial hygienists had to work graveyard and daytime as did all the other health and safety people. We all went on. That had not been the case. There were a few health and safety people that worked staggered shifts, but most of us worked day shifts. So we found ourselves out at Tank Farms. Myself and another industrial hygienist who worked for HEHF who now works at Battelle, [LAUGHTER] we were riding around in a car and going from place to place at Tank Farms and taking chemical measurements all night long. Everybody was—it was kind of crazy. There was SBCA respirators. And then they stepped down, a few people were allowed to wear cartridge respirators that you can still take the vapor out of your breathing zone, but if it’s at a certain level then you’ve got to go to the airline because it’s considered to be dangerous. Well, that’s what OSHA says, anyway. They’ve got these exposure—these limits. Well, went out there one night, and I’m walking through one of the facilities out in Tank Farms. And I see this big—there’s a pop machine and a candy vending machine in this area. I see this big V shape cut out of the concrete. It’s gone. I hadn’t seen that before. I said, gee, I wonder what happened. So I started asking people, how’d that happen? And they said, well, what happened was we found that the mice were going here and running along the wall. You know where the wall and the floor come together, you’ve got that 90-degree bend straight up and down. Well, they had mouse dropping and urine and it was hot. Then they found that a mouse—later on they found that a mouse had gotten up in the candy machine and there was contamination in the candy machine. So the candy machine gets removed. That’s going back to what I was telling you about the contaminated animals. Yeah, you just knew, if you dropped something on the ground at Hanford, you almost never picked it up. If you dropped any pen—I don’t know how many ink pens the government bought for people, but ballpoint pens, they were laying on the ground a lot of places. You knew why they were there. You just couldn’t be sure, when you picked them up, if you did pick them up, they were clean, and you didn’t want to do that. Because when you go out of a zone, you’d have to survey out. If you contaminated your hands, it was a big deal. So if you dropped something on the ground, rather than pick up the pen, you would prevent further contamination. That was part of the training, that you don’t be picking up things that could be potentially contaminated. So we didn’t pick up— I mean, it was a well-known fact that the tumbleweeds and stuff that grew in a lot of places at the Hanford Site—because there was ground contamination—would become contaminated and they’d have lot of radioactive isotopes up in the tumbleweeds. They first thought that they’d go around and they’d reduce the fire hazard by burning the tumbleweeds, so they picked them up in a truck, you know. They had this truck, I think that was—I don’t know how they burned them; I can’t remember exactly. I think they actually embedded some sort of a truck or designed one so they could keep the tumbleweeds in this truck, keep the sparks from going and causing other fires. Everything is required to have a survey—everything out there that goes into any type of a zone is required to be surveyed. As I remember the story—you’d have to talk to somebody who remembers it better than I do—but the RCTs were surveying that operation in that truck, and they found that, lo and behold, the smoke was coming from the tumbleweeds, and any particulates made by those tumbleweeds were radioactive. So I don’t think that burning of tumbleweeds lasted very long. So we don’t do it anymore, I’m sure. But anyway. Franklin: Yeah, now, when I’ve been out there, I’ve just seen them, they get piled up in the ditches and along the fence lines. Beck: And usually hauled away. Franklin: Usually—yeah. Beck: They put them in the landfill and usually bury them. You know, it’s—you just assume that if there’s one contaminated—if you just find one, say, in 100 acres, you would assume that potentially you could have more. So they just all get collected and buried. Franklin: Sure, and you don’t know where they came from, so. You know? It’s the nature of the beast. Beck: And the same with the animals. We used to laugh about it a lot. How do you keep a jackrabbit from staying on the Hanford Site? He’s eating vegetation that may be contaminated, may not. So anything he takes in gets bioaccumulated, stored in his body, you can probably find it. Now this little bugger, he wants to hop over, maybe he even swims the Columbia River, I don’t know. But suppose he gets somewhere. I don’t think that’s a serious issue, but I think it’s one that they’ve been watching. They’ve always watched. Franklin: Sure. It makes sense. I’d like to ask you about the history of the HEHF as you know it. How long were they in existence before you joined them? Beck: A long time. I came to work in ’89, and they were the medical group in 1969 when the McCluskey accident happened. You’ve probably heard of that. Franklin: Yes. Beck: Okay. Those were the docs that treated him. They used chelation therapy? Franklin: Which is? Beck: Which is they give you IV. IVs of salts that will go out and grab onto certain chemicals in the blood. They do that for heavy metals, too. It doesn’t necessarily have to be radioactive. There are people who might have mercury or lead or something in the blood, and they can do that sort of therapy. What it does is it makes chemical complexes. They get it out of the blood and it’s excreted. So that was pretty successful, as I understand it. Never had been done before, that I was aware of. At least that’s what I was told at HEHF. You know, I told the young woman that I talked to on the phone that I scheduled this interview that they used to have lead-lined bathtubs. For accidents. And the McCluskey was the first one who was ever, I think, put in a lead-lined bathtub. Those were located about, I don’t know, a couple hundred feet behind Kadlec. In a—you probably heard of that before? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Beck: Well, I was the guy—I was one of the industrial hygienists used to go in there, because the bathtubs were made of lead. You want to make sure there’s not a lot of lead contamination. You do get oxidation of lead, right ? Franklin: Sure, yeah. Beck: So we’d go in and we’d do what we call swipe samples and we’d have them analyzed for lead and make sure there was no excess lead dust, or not a lot. See, the medical staff or the people being treated to be exposed to. So I used to go in that facility once or twice a year. And so did a lot of other HEHF employees. But I’d never see that facility before, but I’d actually seen the bathtub where McCluskey was—I think it was the bathtub where he was actually treated. But they had these bathtubs and they put the person in it and they’d try to decontaminate him. And the people that did the decon—decontamination—they had the lead that would shield them while they did the work. And they wouldn’t—they’d take turns to limit their dose. They’d move around. So HEHF was here in 1969 when that happened. We had our 65th, I think, anniversary when I was still working for them. Which would’ve been prior to—I don’t know, exactly. That may not be right. I don’t know how long they were here. Maybe it was Battelle had their 65th anniversary when I was working for them. I was working for Battelle when they had their 65th. I don’t know how long HEHF was— Franklin: Okay. Beck: You’d have to research that out. But they soon—I started to work in August 14th of ’89. When I went to work for Waste Management, there were few of us left. Soon after that, the contract was put out for bid, and somebody else won the contract. So then HEHF went out of business. I mean, there’s other people to do the contract, but I actually gave several names of employees that still live in the area to that woman I talked to. She’s hopefully trying to get them to come in for interviews like this, or maybe even meet them for lunch. They meet every month on the fourth or third Thursday for lunch. Franklin: Oh, okay. Beck: A lot of the people that have been worked for HEHF longer than I did. I really didn’t work for them that long. I worked for them for ten years. But there were some people who worked a long time. They’re still here. Franklin: Maybe we can come and give them a presentation. Beck: Yeah, I really think those guys—I don’t know about the docs. I think the docs that actually did the McCluskey treatment stuff, they may have passed already. I don’t know where those guys are. I never met any of them, other than just when they’d come back to visit HEHF after they’d retire. You know, they’d come in the office and I got to shake hands with them and that, but I didn’t know— Franklin: You didn’t work with them? Beck: Didn’t work with them. Franklin: What—oh. Sorry. What other types of activities and people did HEHF employ, besides industrial hygienists? Beck: They employed doctors, and most of the docs were occupational physicians; they specialized in occ med. That’s a specialty usually—at the University of Utah, when—I took some graduate classes for industrial hygiene and we were in the division of occupational medicine, which is a part of family and community medicine at most medical schools. So almost everybody that goes to medical school does a rotation through family medicine and they get probably three months’ worth of rotation through occ med. These docs would’ve specialized in it. There was a guy named Dr. Culkeeny, for instance. He was—I still consider him a great guy and one of my best friends, and I don’t know—he comes back from time to time. But he was a retired Navy physician that worked on aircraft carriers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers. He was a very, very knowledgeable doc. Those were the kind of people that they went after and tried to find. When I first came to HEHF in 1989, we had, I think it was either a one-star or two-star general that became the head of HEHF, and he was an MD. He was a medical doctor. He came from the Air Force, I think. His name was Dr. Neider. He’s retired now. I think he’s still living here in the area. I know that there’s a guy that I worked with at Battelle that married his daughter. So I think he has grandkids and I think he’s still in this area. But, gosh, I haven’t seen most of those people. There’re some of those people that work for HEHF working for the medical contractor now. They’re physicians’ assistants. I think my exit exam when I left PNNL when I retired—everybody gets an exam, you know, when you quit or when you retire you get an exam on record to see if there was anything wrong with you. Actually, one of those PAs did my exit exam so I had a good time telling her, a lot of reminiscing of old times. Those lunches—there was a lot of reminiscing at those lunches about what we used to do and some of the outrageous things we used to have to do on site that we thought, like climbing those stacks. Ha. Got to tell you, that was a—it wasn’t a high point in your day when you had to do that, but it had to be done by somebody. So we were the ones that—some of us; not everybody. Franklin: So it sounds like the nature of your job was largely having a lot of a presence out on site, being—not a lot of lab work, but a lot of going out in all different times of the year and sampling—what were some of the challenges of a year-round position like that? Beck: Well, the weather. We’d work out in, it’s going to be 108 degrees next Friday. Like I told you, Trench 84, very interesting trench. It’s a burial trench out in the Area. I worked out there when I worked for Waste Management. This is just to point out how the weather really affects things. The heat out there, when you’re in that trench, we measured just a temperature off an ordinary thermometer of 114, 115 degrees And it was a trench they’d dug out with Euclids, which are those big earth-moving machines, that you just drive and they just keep digging the—and then they drive up and they put it on top. And then they’d move those big reactor components from all the nuclear ships that they deactivated, and move them in there. They never cover them up—they’re going to cover them up at some point in time, but they have to leave them uncovered so that the people that are part of the treaty, the Russians, number one, can fly over with their satellites and still count those reactor components. Because that’s how you prove they’ve taken the ships out of service. That’s part of some treaty; I was never sure which treaty. They even had to be painted specific colors so that the satellite can see them. But it got so hot out there in the trenches that you couldn’t paint them, the reactors, until—as a matter of fact, we tried to paint them in April one day and the paint was drying so fast, it was popping off. It wouldn’t stay on the reactors, it was that hot. Franklin: Wow. Beck: It wasn’t that hot. It was like 90-something degrees, but it was—they were black underneath. They had kind of a black tarp covering on them. So when you prepped those—and we had professional painters, you know, who would go up on scaffolds and try to paint those things. They’re huge. Wouldn’t fit—one of those probably would be a challenge to fit in this room. They move them with big cranes, Lampson cranes. If you’ve ever seen one of those, you ought to—that’d be something to really televise, for this show, I think, as part of the history. Because they move them out—they close all the roads on the weekends and they put these big trucks, I don’t know how big these trucks are, but they weigh like 200 tons or something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: And they’re contaminated. So they put them on these trucks and they truck them out and put them in that trench. Push dirt underneath them. And they’ll be buried there for—yeah, that’s Trench 84. It’s a well-known trench. I don’t think it’s classified or anything because everything that we used to work on—used to have to have a security clearance to work in there. Franklin: Pretty sure the cleanup tour now goes right by—I’ve seen that. I’ve seen what you’re talking about. Beck: You’ve seen those big things? Franklin: Yeah, they’re huge. Beck: And some of them are bigger than others because some come out of cruisers, some come out of destroyers. But they’re huge. Franklin: They’re huge. Beck: And they’re very hard to paint. Franklin: Yeah and there’s many of them. Beck: They are very hard to paint, let me tell you. Franklin: Oh, I imagine so. Beck: But anyway, it was a 115 degrees down there one day. You have to send people out to work for 20 minutes and then they come in and rest for 30. Because they’re in their anti-Cs. Franklin: What’s that? Beck: Well, it’s anti-contamination clothing, usually a pair of coveralls, and then some, like, a plastic suit or—I guess the way you describe the suit—actually, the name of the suit escapes me. But you sweat. Boy, do you sweat. You wear another pair of shoes. You wear your boots and then you wear plastic over-shoes over that. Then you wear a coveralls and you tape it around the bottom and you wear your other—so you’ve got about two layers, sometimes three. Your rubber boots, you’ll have that much water in your shoes from your sweat. Franklin: Wow. Beck: It’s icky. [LAUGHTER] I’m going to tell you, when I first came here in ’89, it was hard to get used to. It really was. And I have a little sensitivity to heat exhaustion and heat stroke now from the Hanford Site, because sometimes even the safety people—you wouldn’t realize it; it sneaks up on you. You just, before you know it, you’ve got a headache, you’re feeling sick to your stomach, and that’s heat exhaustion. Heat stroke comes later. But you want to stop it before it ever gets there. That’s one of the bigger challenges. Then in the winter, you freeze. It’s really cold. The wind blows like crazy. There are days you can’t collect samples. As an industrial hygienist, the wind’s blowing like 40 miles an hour, I guarantee you, your samples will be worthless. So you don’t sample it. Do you stop work? Well, OSHA says you should know what your employees are getting exposed to. But how do you do that? And actually, I think, when the wind starts blowing, usually more than ten miles an hour, we would not collect samples, because if you’re outside, it can blow dirt in picked up with the wind that these guys weren’t creating. They’re still exposed to it, but it really kind of, what you’d say, salts the sample and makes it maybe a little higher than what it should be. They also had to shut down any heavy lifting. They used these big cranes on the Hanford Site. Since I was a certified safety professional and a certified industrial hygienist, I did safety—I did IH and safety both, and most people did. I mean, there are some safety people out there that just do safety and don’t do industrial hygiene, but I think most IH folks used to do both. I’ve done both on my career of 31 years, safety and health, I’ve done both. So you’re doing the lifts out there with these big cranes, and usually you’re—well, you’re lifting all kinds of things. But hey have these leaded drums that they put waste in, other isotopes in and plutonium. They weigh 5,000 or 6,000 pounds. They lift those up. Well, if the wind’s blowing more than ten miles an hour, all lifts are canceled. There’s a reason for that. They get swinging. Do you want to try to stop 5,000 pounds of—whatever you pick up can be moved in the wind, and you just don’t want to have— So, lightning. When lightning comes close, within 30 miles, a lot of that stuff gets shut down because those cranes are just lightning rods. But it goes inside. So you have a lot of things—I mean, there’s a lot of people that put up with lightning. I mean, in the Midwest it’s worse than here by far. So a lot of people deal with lightning. But our winds, if you’ve ever seen the wind blow around here, it can get to be a big deal. I remember the first year I was here in 1989, I came in August. That November or sometime, I think before Thanksgiving, we had winds that knocked down all the trees down in the park along the river, tore up signs and everything. I remember sleeping that night in my house, the same one I’m living in now, and I thought the roof was going to come off the house. The winds were like 85 miles an hour. Franklin: Wow. Beck: I mean, you went up to the Area the next day, and boy, there was a lot of changes. That’s how the contamination really moves. [LAUGHTER] Could potentially go off-site. Franklin: Sure. Beck: Anyway. Franklin: Wow. Earlier, before we started the interview, you were also telling us about how the shift from providing large drums of water to bottled water and I wonder if you could talk about that briefly. Beck: Well, I’ve already mentioned one of the biggest challenges we have in the weather realm is the heat. And heat exhaustion and heat stroke is a big-time deal; it can be very serious. It’s like the Army used to find, if you didn’t have good food and good boots, everybody gets calluses on their feet, the Army doesn’t go very far. If they get sick and they’ve got dysentery, bad water, bad food, the enemy doesn’t need to fight you, right, because you’re done. You’re pretty much done. Same thing when you’re working in the workforce like that. You take out half your workforce with heat exhaustion, heat stroke. And it takes a while to recover. And sometimes, it takes IV therapy, if they’re really, you know, if people are really sensitive and they’re like I am. I’m 66. I have to watch what I do. Not only have I been sensitized out there at the Site, but I also have to watch what I do now because the older you get, the less your body cools itself. I mean, there’s lots of things that are different. So you’ve got to be smart about what you do. So we used to have to try to prevent heat exhaustion, heat stroke. Hydration is key. But when you’re in all those layers of anti-contamination clothing, right, and you sweat a lot, not only is it key, it’s crucial, in my opinion. So there was a time when I came out here in 1989 that we were accomplishing this, the hydration part, by having 5-gallon containers of chilled water with ice in it. We had to make sure it wasn’t contaminated; it was clean; that there weren’t any viral-borne illnesses or anything that people would get, because that’s bad, too, and people don’t want to drink it anyway. So we had these containers that were purchased that were used for nothing but that. They were sanitized every day at the end of shift with a Clorox solution—chlorine solution. They were rinsed and they were put in an area that was clean to dry. Turned upside-down, sitting on things, so they would air dry. And then in the morning, way early in the morning—some of these shifts, because it was hot, we’d alter the shifts and you’d start work at 6:30, maybe 6:00 in the morning, maybe even earlier. And then you’re done earlier in the day, and that also helps. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I bet. Beck: For those of us that had to drive out there 35 miles, it wasn’t terribly helpful. Because that means you have to get up at 3:00 in the morning to get out there. That was the other thing in the summer: your schedule changed a lot. But at any rate, they had some of the craft that were union employees that would fill these things up with ice and water and monitor them all day, and would also sanitize them and clean them at night. And they’d do other things in the day, but that was part of their duty. It’s very difficult; you got 15 people working in an area doing something and you’re trying to count these 15 people and make sure they’ve had enough water, enough fluid. How do you do that? It’s kind of hard, because you’re—to not get too complicated and take too long, if it’s a contaminated area, you can’t do that anyway. Because they’re on a respirator and they’re not allowed to eat and drink. So that’s a big problem. So a lot of times, they have to take breaks and they have to maybe take off the outer layer of their anti-Cs, they have to survey out, then they get to go sit and cool down. Now, a coffee break takes about 45 minutes when you do that. Because they get their clothing off, they get surveyed to make sure they had no contamination, then they get to go sit and drink the water. That’s always kind of hard to say, well, how many cups has this guy had, how many cups have you had? Because you’ve got to have so many ounces in so many hours. Franklin: Sure. Beck: But when bottled water came, we eliminated the cost of those jugs and the ice—because it had to be ice that was drinkable. We still kind of gave them drinkable ice, but we got the bottled water, we just put all the bottles in kind of like a big plastic tub with ice in it, let them cool down. Each guy, each individual would go and get six bottles of water and write his name on it or whatever, however many bottles. And we would count the number of bottles he drank and he would, through the safety officer on the Site, he would require that those people bring the bottles to you, and show you that they’ve—you couldn’t stop them from pouring it on the ground the moment you saw them, but if you saw them doing that, they were done working. Franklin: Right. Beck: They just were. Because if someone goes down in a contaminated area, if they pass out or they get sick, then you got to have the Hanford Fire Department come in and pick them up. It’s just—it’s a huge issue and there’s lots of risks to that. People get hurt. You want people making good decisions. You don’t want people feeling light-headed and not feeling good. That’s going to happen anyway, maybe, because it’s just so blasted hot. You want to try to get them as good as they can be. So bottled water, as a safety person, I thought bottled water was one of the coolest things that came around. It really made our job a bit simpler. And I think overall for the safety and health of the people that worked out there, they could have as many as they wanted; we didn’t restrict the bottled water. But, golly, I mean, we absolutely knew for a fact that that guy was really at low risk, or lower risk, for heat exhaustion because he’d had all the water he needed. Franklin: Right, you were able to measure it, basically. Beck: Yeah, you could measure it instead of just guessing at it. How much—did he drink the entire cup or did you drink half of it and throw it away? That was kind of important. Franklin: So you said in ’99, HEHF was shut down. And then you moved to Battelle shortly after that? Beck: Well, HEHF was shut down, and I had to have a place to go to work. Because my job was going to end. I think what happened there was that most of the contractors thought HEHF was too expensive. I mean, they were each given $2 or $3 million a year for health and safety, I think. What you had to pony up from your contract was proportionate to the employees you had, right? And each time a doc examines somebody and they each got to handle a physical, you know? Say there’s 12,000 or 15,000 employees onsite. I don’t know how many there ever were. I know that Battelle themselves employs around 4,500 workers. But if you have that many employees, and they’re all getting exams, it’s constant money. They all thought that they could do it different and cheaper. So HEHF, their contract was put up for bid and somebody else won the contract. Then there’s other people that left. They were using their own physicians, putting them on the records. So I’m not sure exactly what happened, but the crux of the matter was they started doing their own industrial hygiene and safety and they were hiring on people. They actually hired many of the HEHF staffers. We were kind of at a premium because we’d been here a while. We had our clearances already. Security clearance costs—I don’t know, they told me once it used to cost $10 grand for a year. I mean, they have to maintain it. They check on it every year. I had a Q clearance. I don’t know if that’s similar to what the politicians who’ve been in the news recently with the election have. But, you know. They check. They check all the time. So if you have all those things already done and your training’s already done, you don’t have to be trained and receive all the rad training. I mean, you have to have the annual refresher but you don’t have to go for the two-week course. That costs a lot of money, to send people for a two-week training. Then, wow, we get this person and he’s actually been out here and he knows where T Plant is, and he knows where this is? And you might have an idea where things are buried where other people have forgotten, okay? Give you an example, those tunnels that just collapsed? We knew they were there. For a long time. And I believe that used to be classified. Obviously they’re not because they’re in the news. But we used to walk across them all the time; we knew they were there. How anybody could’ve forgot they were there and let them deteriorate is—but anyway. Another story. So I needed a place to go to work, so I first went to work for Waste Management. Probably of all the contractors, HEHF was the very best at it, and that was the very best job I ever had. I was devastated to see that job go. I really was. Because it was the—when you go to take graduate courses in industrial hygiene, it’s the cat’s meow to have occupational health nurses, and occupational docs and industrial hygienists and safety people all over the gamut, all going in and talking about John Smith who’s got this problem, how do you think he got it? And then going out and sampling for it. Man, that was good. It was just like graduate school, just like—a lot of companies work—well, anyway, that ended. And so I went to work for Waste Management. I think Waste Management was probably the second best company at Hanford I ever worked for. Franklin: Why was that? Beck: Management. The manager I had was—he was fabulous. I just can’t say enough about him. He was—his name was Gordon Meaney. He was a great guy. He was a great guy. Then I worked—something happened with the politics. There again, these contracts out at Hanford, they’re all full of intrigue and drama and politics and whatever you want. Follow the money, you know, but. Fluor Hanford wasn’t getting along with Waste Management for some reason. So they swallowed up Waste Management. We didn’t get choices; we were Fluor Hanford employees. I mean, we had a choice: go find another job or work for Fluor Hanford. Because Waste Management was done. Maybe they’ve come back to the Site; I haven’t paid much attention. Franklin: Do you remember when that was? Beck: Oh. Franklin: You got notes? Beck: Well, I just have some information here. If you’ll pardon me, I can’t remember dates really well. Franklin: No, that’s totally fine. Beck: I know the date that I started, I stopped working for— Franklin: It’s not a crucial thing if you can’t remember it. Beck: Oh, I can. I worked for Waste Management until November 15th of 1999. November 15th of 1999, I became a Fluor Hanford employee. So, it was in the late ‘90s that they had this little problem with Fluor. I don’t know what it was. I used to kind of think I knew, but the years have gone by, you know? It’s not the most important thing I ever thought about, but it happened. So I only worked for Waste Management for a year. I worked for Fluor Hanford for a year. And then Fluor Hanford was probably the worst job I ever had. I worked for other companies that had worse management but I don’t know when. I mean, I’m not trying to trash them; I’m just saying. I was matrixed out in the area to six different projects. I read about it this morning before I came, because I sent my letter of resignation, I sent it by email. The human resources specialist that I sent that to wrote me an email back saying, why are you leaving? So I wrote this discourse why I was leaving. I was matrixed to about six projects; I had three different managers I was responsible to. It got so bad, I mean—I want to say this nicely. There were managers that would schedule meetings at the same time, or maybe I’d have a meeting from 1:00 to 2:00 and this guy wanted a meeting from 1:30 to 2:30 or whatever. They would write me nasty letters and put on my evaluation that I didn’t attend meetings. But I had conflicts. These managers, it’s like the current political administration, if you’ve been noticing what’s been going on in Washington, DC. They were warring against each other. I was absolutely amazed. I said, look, guys. I’m matrixed to all these projects. If you guys want to have a meeting with me, I’m more than willing to attend but I can’t be two places at once. Well, where’s your loyalty? Do you have a loyalty to this plant, this project, or what? What do you mean loyalty? I’m going to lose my job one way or another. After a while, I just said, you know? So I applied for Battelle. It was a job that was in town. No more driving. I mean, I didn’t really mind the drive out there. But they actually drove me from the Site, the bad management and their attitude. Gosh, a nine-hour day was not enough for them. I had to do ten hours a day, four days a week. When I went to work for Battelle—I retired at Battelle, so. When I worked for Battelle, things changed a bit on my safety and health slant, because I was the first industrial hygienist for the University of Utah. They were in research, laboratory research. Well, Battelle is laboratory research, too. So they hired me for my experience in laboratory research. Franklin: Mm. So you kind of ended your career where you started. Beck: I ended my career where I started. Much happier. Battelle had good management for the most part. Franklin: What types of projects did you support at Battelle? Beck: I supported—I don’t know how they’re organized now; I haven’t really kept up with it since I left. But Battelle had different directorates. My last directorate where I retired from was NSA, or the national—NSE, excuse me. The National Security Directorate. NSA, the National Security Administration, after 9/11, that’s where they got most of their money. Working there, working for Battelle, you know, I’d heard that most of the money was in NSD. From time to time, everybody at the will of the government goes through budgeting crises at the Site, particularly Battelle. I was energy science and technology directorate. ESTD was the one I first supported. They were more subject to losing money through the budget. So I was working, the day of 9/11, I was working, still supporting ESTD and I was over in PSL when the—actually, I was home when I heard that 9/11 occurred, you know, the planes and everything. I was in PSL when that tower collapsed. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And I was with a bunch of ESTD people, and they said, man, this is obviously terrorism. We were all talking about it. And they said, wow, now would be the time to change directorates, because I’m never going to get—National Security Directorate’s going to get a lot of bucks. So I changed and went to work for the National Security Directorate and, boy, did we ever get money. So they do all kinds of research. NSD is almost completely classified. There’s some things that aren’t, but by and large, that’s all I can tell you. Don’t mean to be cloak-and-daggered, but I don’t know what’s—because I would go in to do inspections and some things would be covered with cloths and sheets and I would be told, you can’t see this. My clearance, I had a Q clearance, it wasn’t even high enough. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: So, I mean, there’s some of those things. But the Energy Science and Technology Directorate does research into load handling for the power grid. They’re really famous for that. They’re working on battery technology. When I worked at the University of Utah in the early ‘70s, I actually—I worked as a research specialist until I started working for the Department of Public Safety where I was the industrial hygienist. My boss there was the chief of police for the university police. So before that, I worked for a project that was funded by a government agency called ERDA. Any of you guys heard of ERDA before? Franklin: Energy Research and—yes. Beck: Energy—yeah. Franklin: I know the acronym. Beck: It was DOE but not on steroids. Franklin: Right, they were pre-DOE, right? But post-AEC. Beck: Right. And I was working on a sodium sulfur storage battery. The military was funding it. Ford Motor Company was funding it for electric cars. The military was really interested in having a good storage battery where they could have electric motors in tanks. They could mount tank offensives and stuff without making noise. Like when you fire those big diesels up? Oh, the element of surprise is not there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. No, it’s very different when a Chevy Volt goes down the street than even a regular car. Beck: I drive a Prius and I have to be very careful in parking lots because people don’t hear you. Because I’m totally electric when I get rolling. After I back out and I’m just going really slow, I’m on total battery power. And unless I’m making noise going across the asphalt, I can sneak up on people. And they look up and you actually scare them. You know? Franklin: Yeah, that’s happened to me. Beck: You have to be really careful. Well, anyway, so, they have five different directorates at Battelle. Battelle used to do research on water going through the dams and the fish. They used lasers to do that research. They have special things that they’ve built to simulate dams and they made special little floats that are smolts that they run through the—and they did these different aeration things and they had these lasers that they can actually see what was happening to these smolts. Because it takes pictures, so many frames a second, with the laser beam. I mean, it’s pretty cool. That sort of stuff’s not classified. When I worked there, I was the laser safety officer there for about five years. So I inspected all the lasers, made sure as best I could that we were operating them correctly and safely. There was one time in DOE that DOE had eight or ten accidents within a couple years where people had damaged their eyesight, lost their eyesight or were otherwise injured from lasers. So they got a really big deal on laser safety. They actually sent me from Battelle to Stanford. DOE has a lab at Stanford. And they gave us additional laser safety training. Franklin: Oh, wow. Beck: So they use a lot of lasers at Battelle. They use it at NSD, too. NSD, they use lasers for classified stuff, too. So if you’ve ever wondered how our drones are so accurate. Chk chk. [LAUGHTER] And that’s enough said. Franklin: No, and they are very accurate. My last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War and cleanup? Beck: Well, I’d like to go back just a step further. I’d like to go back pre-, say, World War II, say. During World War II and just after. The men that worked here at Hanford were absolute heroes. Because when you look at the history and you look at the exposures—try to document and calculate some of the exposures of these guys. They were every bit as brave, and, man, they were—I mean, B Reactor and some of the things that were done, they didn’t know if some of those things were even going to work. They didn’t know how they were going to work. They knew a little bit about radiation, but they didn’t know the doses they were going to receive. And they didn’t have any way to measure it like we do now. So I’d like people to remember that, boy, those veterans that worked and made the plutonium—whatever you consider about the atomic bomb, the two that were dropped—the people at Hanford that made the plutonium for the second bomb, they were heroes. Those guys really gave. And after that, during the Cold War, there was more of that. You know, McCluskey was hurt in ’69 and there was a lot of injuries and a lot of exposures. We’ve got beryllium exposure, sensitization of beryllium from machining triggers and from the rods that went into the reactors that got beryllium on them in some places. And there’s all kinds of other illnesses that these guys have gotten, right? That they got protecting our country and they got by ending, by winning the Cold War, essentially. I’m a member of Cold War Patriots, and I think they’re right on. Wasn’t so much my generation, but the people that worked back in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘70s, those are the people that really won the Cold War, in my opinion. And when the wall came down, when the Soviets—that wall came down, that was—I have no doubt that was a direct result, at least in partial of what was done here at Hanford and at Oak Ridge and at Lawrence Livermore and all the DOE labs. There’s 12 of them. You know, there’s more research, I think, done in most of the DOE labs than the rest of the universities put together, realistically. Most of those, most of these DOE sites are associated with major universities. It’s quite phenomenal what the Department of Energy and these labs and the Hanford Site and other places have done. I mean, yeah, there’s contamination and there are things that happen. But, man, there was a lot of stuff that was done that needed to be done and was done. I’m just—it’s kind of cool to be associated with it, actually. And it wasn’t a big deal, actually, from ’89 to when I retired in 2010 or 2011, it’s not a—we did a little. But it was those people before ’89 that were really, really—I think every time I go somewhere and I tell people about Hanford—where’s Hanford? What did you guys do? I’m on an airplane or I’m telling a relative. All my relatives in Denver think, you know, hey, you glow in the dark. Well, you talk with them about it and most of those people—the only thing they have, the only conception they have is how inhumane the atomic bomb was. I’ll give you, it’s a wicked weapon, but—they probably shouldn’t have killed—I don’t know. But those guys did what they were told. They did the very best they could, and there were some great, brilliant people that did this. There’s brilliant people working on these DOE sites today. They certainly get marginalized by the people in Washington, DC that don’t even know what’s going on. I’ll get a little political here, and I’ll tell you that I read an article recently that when the current administration came in, the guy who’s the head of the Department of Energy, they went out in Washington, DC, the head office of the DOE, they reserved all these parking places, and they got everybody ready to give these people that they thought from this administration would come to get all kinds of information, to get information on what do you guys do? Because the previous administration had done it, the administration before that had done it, the administration before that had done it. [WHISPERING] Nobody even showed up. [FULL VOICE] So the camera can hear me, nobody even showed up! It’s disgraceful. I’m sorry? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, no, that’s okay. Beck: I just say, you guys don’t even—you’re voting on a budget, you want to cut DOE’s budget. You don’t even know what the labs do! I mean, if you’ve got an opinion, that’s okay. But be informed. They didn’t even show up; it was like, well, we know exactly what you guys do and it’s nothing and it can be done away with. It’s just crazy. I think the future is in these small nuclear reactors, these pod reactors. I do not think solar and wind is going to replace coal-fired power plants. If we’re really going to have an energy renaissance, if we’re really going to get on a good energy program, we’re going to have to get on nuclear energy. It’s the only option. There are some people that will have some cold showers and they’re going to figure that out. I really believe that. So I think DOE, well, DOE labs, these labs that they have, the 12 of them are the ones that are going to make that happen and happen really well. And I think it can be done safely. I don’t know why people are ignoring the Department of Energy, it just—it baffles me. But, see, I’m one of the outspoken people that believes in nuclear energy and everybody else, I mean—I get people that just—[LAUGHTER] They’d like to beat me up, frankly. So, any other questions? Franklin: No, thank you so much, Ed. You know, I did have one other question and I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask—what did your wife do the whole time that you guys were here and that you were working out on Site? Beck: Hmm. Well. She raised the family. Did a great job. This is our 44th year of marriage. We’ll be married 44 years August the 18th. I’ll tell you one funny thing about coming here. When I got the job, and I said, you know, this is a really good job. The reason it was, I got a 50% salary increase when I came here. Franklin: That’s pretty significant. Beck: That’s from working at the University of Utah. It’s a little bit, deals with the risks that were here, but they also paid very well. So I said I think we ought to go. So we sold our house and everything. Well, we came for the house hunting trip. We had—[LAUGHTER]—so I get the family in the van, and I drive them from Salt Lake City. And we come down over Cabbage Hill, Cabbage Mountain which is by Pendleton. Wow, this is beautiful! This is just beautiful! We go out through the wheat fields, you know? I-84. Wow, this is nice, this is nice. Then I turn on 82. We go across the Columbia River. Oooh, this is good! Look at that dam! Look at the water! Then we come up to Kennewick, and she says, where are the trees? She says, where are you moving us? She says, there’s nothing green! And I said, well, when they flew me for the interview, I says, it’s green from the air. I says, they’ve got lots of corn fields and stuff. And then I—I didn’t know much about the place, so the house hunting trip, I rented—I stayed at the Motel 6 in Pasco. You’re on fixed income, they give you so much money for a house hunting trip. I shouldn’t have done that, but I thought, Motel 6, usually they’re pretty good. Not a really good area, and we got in the van, and the sun came up the next morning going to get breakfast in the hotel and she says, gee, I hope there’s a better part of town. So we ended up over by the mall. We bought—we’re living in the same house that we lived in, we bought that house in ’89, we’re still there. She raised our three kids, they went through high school here, they went through college. One went to WSU, one went to UW, and the other one was an National Merit scholarship winner and he got his choice of where he wanted to go, so he went to Arizona State. Then he got his PhD from University of California San Diego. Franklin: Wow. Beck: So. We had two transplants in that time because of our daughter having e. coli, she lost the use of her—she had destroyed her kidneys, and that’s another long story. But I donated a kidney in ’90 and then my wife donated one in 2003. So that’s basically what she did. She did home hemodialysis for six years after my daughter rejected my kidney. Until she was in good enough health that we could do the transplant, give her a kidney. That’s what I was going to tell you about health insurance. It was—this is an off—you know, I don’t know if you want to stop the camera, but this is, I think is kind of important for the where we came from and where we are now. I was at the University of Utah and I chose this program for insurance called the Preferred Provider Program. I mean, it started, it was new, they were starting all kinds of things back in the ‘80s. This is in ’81. So FHP had just come on. FHP I think is still in California. But for a while, FHP was our insurer, then I chose this Preferred Provider Program. And I thought, well, in the state of Washington there was no—you could not exclude previous illnesses. What do they call that now? Tom Hungate: Pre-existing. Franklin: Pre-existing condition. Beck: Pre-existing conditions. The law in Washington with all the insurance was no such thing as a pre-existing condition. And they paid well. Well, at the University of Utah, I was on a preferred provider program. When my daughter got sick, she spent 90 days in hospital, 30 in intensive care. The doctor that took care of her was from the medical school there. He was a specialist. He was a nephrologist. Because she started losing—hemolytic uremic syndrome can destroy your kidneys, and it did destroy hers. I was deeply in debt to that man, because he wasn’t one of the preferred providers on that program, and I didn’t know it. He was the only game in town. He was the only guy that could take care of her. He was on faculty at the University of Utah and he was insured through the same—he felt so bad. He says, I do not believe what’s happened. This is back in ’85—well, actually, ’87. He says, I don’t believe this could be happening in our country. How could this be? He says, you owe me this much. Because the insurance company wouldn’t pay because he had to sign up on the dotted line, you know? So he wrote off that entire amount of money I owed him, which was lots. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And so—and I had a lot of other expenses, too. I almost declared bankruptcy. So then this job—I started looking for another job because I had to pay off the bills. And we came to Washington State. One of the reasons I came here—I was interested in working at Hanford and I had a lot of experience to give them, but also they pay high salaries and there was no pre-existing conditions on their health insurance. And to move anywhere else would’ve been suicide, economic suicide. There was a time everybody was telling me, well, you ought to divorce your wife and if you do that she’ll be able to get medical assistance from the state. They were telling me to do that. I said, no, I’m not going to do that! But that was—there were a lot of people that were thinking and probably did do that to solve the—and then they’d just live with their wife, anyway. They were divorced, but— Franklin: Sure, to get—to be legally single. Beck: Anyway. That’s another—I think that’s kind of important. So, when my daughter lost her kidneys, use of her kidneys, we’d been living here for about ten years, she had about 10% left. We were told when we went over to children’s hospital for a physical that she had to have a transplant. So then I donated and I was working at HEHF at the time. So I donated, and since it was my daughter, the medical insurance covered her because it was a pre-existing condition and it paid for my hospital stay and my removal of my kidney, you know, and all of that. It was just so much better system. And then she rejected mine, and so she was on dialysis for six years and she was such a young age, she was in grade school at the time, that my wife wanted her to have a really normal, as normal a childhood as possible, and not have to go to a dialysis center with adults where the prognosis is not that good, and most of them are—you know, this is a little girl, she’s just seven or eight. So she went to Children’s Hospital and learned how to do dialysis herself. They trained her at Children’s to do dialysis on our daughter. We installed a dialysis machine in our basement. I got a water softener, I can put out a stream of water like that, still. You don’t need one like that, but I went over to Pasco to their dialysis center and I asked the engineer there, I said, what kind of water softener did you use? Because they said, you’re going to have to have a really big softener to do this, because it’s a lot of water. I paid the big bucks, we got it put in the basement and my wife dialyzed her four times a week for six years. Franklin: Wow. Beck: And that’s pumping blood through a filter. It’s not just pumping water. They have a type of dialysis where you can fill up a sack inside, but we actually did it, blood dialysis. That’s what she did when she was here. She couldn’t work. Franklin: Sure, no, that makes sense. Beck: But that was a good thing because Hanford paid so well. And I’ve never been in debt since. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Beck: So, I don’t know, I’m pretty emotionally attached to this part of the country. Franklin: No, there’s a lot of good reasons for that. Well, Ed, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us today. Beck: You’re welcome. Franklin: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/cy9XisqownE">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview HEHF (Hanford Environmental Health Foundation) N Reactor 222-S Laboratory 200 Area 200 West T Plant Tank Farms B Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1989- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Beck Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Animals in research Industrial hygiene Radioactive contamination Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Edward Beck moved to Richland, Washington in 1989 to work at the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation (HEHF). An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/31/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9ad3a90fc43d92e9610d6107002bd0ea.JPG 608989d427c45abccfa52c4a12dd91e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Milliman Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: I’m ready here. Tom Hungate: We’re ready. Franklin: We’re ready, okay. My name is Robert Franklin and I am conducting an oral history with Edward Milliman on July 6th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Edward Milliman about his experiences working at the Hanford site and living in Richland. So I guess the first place to start is the beginning. So why don’t you tell me how you came to Hanford and to Richland? Edward Milliman: From 1960 until ’67, I worked for General Electric and Douglas United Nuclear. I got laid off in ’67, so then I went to Montana, Bozeman area. Ran a couple of ranches there for a couple years. Went up to Cut Bank, Montana. In fact, it was winter for Montana. And 40 below there in the winter was nothing. The only way you could get to town, which was 20 miles away—they would start their D8 Cat up with the blade on it, and blade through all the way to town. And town was a grocery store and a tavern. Some of them old cowboys there, they’d get snowed in all winter. When spring thaw come, they and their hired help would all come into town and come into the saloon there, the bar. And I noticed every time I would go in there, one fellow was always there. If you left late at night, he was still there. And I asked the bartender, which was from Longview, Washington. He said, no, we just lock him in. He just stays here, and if he drinks anything through the night, the money’s always to the side there. And those old cowboys would come in, and they would get all drunked up. That one guy would say—and the bartender told me—see them two old fellas? And they must have been 70, 75. He said, stay away from them, just leave them alone. No matter what happens, leave them alone. Don’t say anything. Pretty soon their voices started getting loud, and I started paying them some attention. He said, that was not your calf. That was my calf that crawled through the fence and I just pulled him back. You’re a liar! And them two old fellas jumped up and went to knocking each other around and down on the floor. And they weren’t kidding. They were really hitting knuckles to each other. And pretty soon, the bartender took a bar towel, a wet bar towel on them. They got up, and sat there and sopped the blood up on their nose and their lips. They sat there, having a drink, and they started laughing. The bartender said, you know, neither one of them’s ever had a cow or a calf in their life. They’re wheat farmers. And he said, they’re just so glad to see each other, they beat the devil out of each other every year. [LAUGHTER] And he said this happens every spring. And pretty soon, he said, now just sit still, man. It ain’t over yet. I said, my goodness. So pretty soon, he said, you hit me harder than I hit you. No, I didn’t. Smack, bang, down they went again. [LAUGHTER] And that finally ended it. Anyway, just some of the funny things that happened to me. Then I came back and put an application in for Battelle. Franklin: In what— Milliman: 1970. They hired me on January the 5th, 1970. I was working for a doctor, Dr. Alfred P. Wehner, which happened to be during the war a fighter pilot for the Germans. He joined the Luftwaffe, the Hitler Youth. His father was SS. He’s also written a book, From Hitler Youth to United States Citizen, which I probably have the second autographed copy. But we were doing all kind of bioassays and lifespan studies using—mainly then it was hamsters, Syrian golden hamsters. We were making them—we would put them in these exposure chambers. They were introduced to nickel oxide in this one particular chamber. The next chamber would be cobalt oxide. And then also we went on to introduce cigarette smoke to them. You’d put them in a tube and plug them into a Hamburg-2 smoking machine which had 30 cigarettes on this turn. And the machine would take a puff off each cigarette and blow it in the chamber. They had no choice but to inhale it. And asbestos exposure. And at that time, all we had on was a lab coat and a little white paper face mask. [LAUGHTER] At that time, they didn’t know the dangers—really bad dangers of asbestos. Then in 1974, Johnson and Johnson talcum powder exposure. That lasted for two years. In the meantime, all the employees out at 100 F, where we were located, they moved into the new Life Science Laboratory here in 3000 Area. But we couldn’t leave, because we had animals on exposure. Weren’t allowed to move them. So I was out there at 100 F until 1975, ’76. And then I moved into town. I think it was ’77, we went out on a two-year asbestos concrete exposure. Of course, by then, they had us pretty well suited up in fresh air and respirators and all this stuff. Then I moved over—that was over at the annex. Then I moved into the Life Science Laboratory, which we used to say, we’re stuck one story down in the ground in a rat-infested hole. Which—all we had was rats and mice down there. They had four macaque monkeys, and they were doing dental implants on them. We had this one comrade down there that—he was kind of a strange fellow. He would go into the monkey room, the macaques’. They had them in—there was four: it was three males and one female. If you’re mean to an animal, there’s no second chance or anything. If they catch you mistreating an animal, you’re out the door right now. They’ll escort you out and you’re finished. Well, when you went in the monkey room, these macaques—they’re only set up, oh, about two, three foot. When you’d come into the room, they would hang onto the bars on their cage. And Dan would come up and smash their fingers and tell them to get back, get back. They tell you, don’t let them get ahold of you, they’ll pull your arm right out of the socket, they’re that strong. And I’ve seen them get ahold of a chain and pull a half inch eyebolt right out of the concrete. They’d put their feet against the wall, and—anyway. This one male macaque which was the dominant one there, he would turn around real fast when Dan would come in and throw his posterior up in the air, which in monkey language, that’s insult, that’s a challenge, come on. Anyway, Dan kept doing that, and being mean to him, and kicking the cage, and making him get back. Always had a safety man looking through the glass at you, all the time when you’d go in there. Dan was washing the floor out, and he got too close. And he dropped the hose, and he took a step forward to pick the hose up. That macaque reached out and got him by the front of the coveralls and pulled him up against the cage, and drew his fist back like a human, and he Dan so hard—[LAUGHTER]—through the bars of that cage, he knocked him out. And the safety man run in, and all the rest of the macaques were all standing up looking, hey, what you doing? And they pulled Dan out and took him to first aid. Dan come back, he had most beautiful black eye I’ve ever seen in my life. And his nose was kind of pushed over to the side a little bit from the swelling. Our supervisor called Dan in and said, you must be careful. Don’t let them get ahold of you. Okay. Well, about two weeks later, Dan was in there. It was his turn to go in. He was in there washing the floor out, and feeding them. [LAUGHTER] He got too close. That monkey reached out and got Dan by the head of the hair and chun-kinged him into the bars and knocked him out again. Well, the safety man, he says, I run in and pulled Dan back out and took him to first aid. And now Dan come back, now he’s got this black eye that’s starting to turn green, because it’s healing up. And now he’s all bandaged up around his head. He got stitches in his head. The boss called him in again. Dan, you got to be careful. Stay away from them things. Okay. About two weeks later, Dan went in there, and to check their water, you had about a six-foot galvanized pipe. And it was crossbar—across the upright bars on the thing, and then there was a divider there. You’d go in, you’d take that pipe, and you’d stick it against the water nipple to make sure that they were getting water. This little female macaque, she would grab the pipe and poke it on there and shake her head, yes, it’s okay. That’s how smart they were. Well, Dan got to that big old male monkey—macaque—and he stuck the pipe in there. And the safety man told us later, he said, I knew exactly what was going to happen. Because you could sit there and see in that macaque, he’d kind of sit there and think about that, watching Dan put that pipe through there on the other cages. He grabbed the pipe, pulled it out of Dan’s hand, chugged him in the belly and folded Dan over, put the pipe over the crossbar there, and romped down on the end of it. Hit old Dan under the chin and knocked him out again. And the safety man, he said, I was laughing so hard, I couldn’t—I had to crawl in on my hands and knees and pull Dan out of there. Here comes Dan back, he’s still got bandage on his head, he’s still got a black eye, and now he’s got stitches in his chin. [LAUGHTER] And the boss called Dan in, and said, Dan, I’m going to have to pull you out. Them monkeys are killing you. [LAUGHTER] That’s just some of the humorous things that’s happened there. I guess it wasn’t humorous to Dan, but—and we all kidded Dan so bad, he left. He finally retired. [LAUGHTER] And then we got—after the asbestos concrete exposure and went to LSL-2 down the basement, then they got a lot of contracts from the NCI and a lot of organizations. There were probably eight or ten exposure rooms in that basement. They designed these special chambers for our inhalation studies. Dr. Owen Moss designed the chambers. And I designed a device to generate particulate matter, which I have a patent on. There were four control rooms that controlled those eight or ten rooms. They were using my device to generate indium phosphide. It was a component they use in computers and chips and things like that. Opening day, two-year contract, about $25 million. And me and this other employee, we were their technicians. They had finally computerized the readouts on all these chambers, and they had 1,200 rats in all these different chambers. This chamber got 10 micrograms per liter, this chamber got 20, 30, and on down the line. There were 1,200 rats in all these different chambers. They were generating this delivery system. I was 200 feet away from where this stuff was being delivered to the animals. I’m sitting in the control room all comfortable. Started that thing up, and started generating that indium phosphide. I was looking at the computer, checking the different levels in the chambers. You had ten minutes before T-90 to get up to 100% of the target. The other fella asked me, how’s it doing? I’m tweedling knobs and regulating air flows and stuff, and I’m watching the computer. And one of the last readings I seen was that it was 65% of the target. And it exploded. And it blew me and him out the door. I’m glad the door wasn’t latched—it was closed, but didn’t lock. Blew us into the hallway. The indium phosphide and the smoke come rolling out of the ceiling. We slammed the door shut, grabbed some tape and sealed the door. All the other technicians down the room in the control room, they stuck their heads out and hollered and hit the panic button, which was one button on all these control rooms. When you hit the panic button, it shut everything down that they were exposing. They broke the barrier and went out through the sterile, which costs a lot of money to clean up, because that was all a sterile area. They couldn’t come my way, because the fumes and the dust. Look in there, and it was the most beautiful violet flame. That stuff was burning. And I’m sitting here looking at it. [LAUGHTER] Buddy, he got his fresh air on and everything, running for the fire extinguisher and put the fire out and we sealed the door again. And then they called the fire department and they evacuated the whole building. Nobody asked us if we were okay. They would just walk up and say, what did you do? [LAUGHTER] It just blew up! Anyway, the PR people got ahold of us right away—public relations people. They said, you will not say anything—an explosion, or the dang thing blew up. [LAUGHTER] Okay, but it did. You can’t say that. It killed all 1,200 of those rats from the concussion. Franklin: Wow. Milliman: And it went and blew out—went through the heap of filters, went through the scrubbers, and out into the air. Which they kind of glossed over. When I read it in the paper, anyway, it was—it said two scientists had previously been in the room. No one was there when it—the incident—happened, is the way they put it. Franklin: Wow. So, I guess rolling back a little bit—no, I guess we’ll keep going, then we’ll roll back. So, what year did that happen, the incident? This incident, with the—what did you call it, the indium? Milliman: Indium phosphide. Franklin: Indium phosphide. Milliman: Yeah. Gosh, that must have been late ‘80s or early ‘90s. Because I retired in 1996. Franklin: And you had worked for Battelle from 1970 to 1996? Milliman: Yeah, yes. Franklin: Okay. Milliman: Yes. Worked for the same doctor, same scientist. Until very later on the started having some heart trouble and he retired. But we’re still good friends, we stay in contact. Many, many—I think the worst exposure I was ever on was CS2. It was a teargas with a disabler in it. We got the contract from the Army. Even though you had protective gear on and fresh air, you would take your outside protection off, and you had a pair of coveralls on underneath. If you’d walk out into the hallway, everybody would shun you like you had the plague, because that stuff just stuck with you. One time, some got into my fresh air mask somehow. I plugged the area, and it gave me a full shot in the face. Down I went. Safety man pulled me out and went and got a wet towel. They had a compound that kind of nullified that stuff. It was Triton X-100. He soaked that towel in that Triton X, and I got it on my face. Of course, you don’t even know where you’re at. The disabler is like a bad dream. It just—your hand will fly up and slap you in your own face, and you got no control over anything. It only lasts for a little while, but it’s very effective, I can tell you. [LAUGHTER] It—gosh, it just burns your eyes, you can’t breathe, your throat constricts, and you’re disoriented. Franklin: Do you know when this was? Do you remember when this was? Milliman: That must have been in the ‘80s, too. Probably the late ‘80s. We had so many chemical exposures going on, just one after another. These were all lifespan studies. And they figure a rat lives—a rat or mouse—can live a couple of years. Their lifespan is two years at the max. I have a stack of papers eight inches high of all the disclosure of what we were getting exposed to, and we had to sign we were aware of what the exposure would do. There were so many chemicals, like 1,3-butadiene and propylene. And next time you open a bag of Lay’s potato chips or any kind of a—the bags are all puffy and look like they’re plump full—I mean—full. [LAUGHTER] Ha, the last thing they shoot into that plastic bag before they seal it up is propylene, a preservative. And all these contracts that we received were to see if they were—they were all potential carcinogens, and we were testing the effects of them to see if they were carcinogen. That was the main thing that I did for 26, 27 years on all these inhalation exposures. Franklin: So, can you tell me about propylene? Is it a carcinogen? Milliman: I didn’t get to read the report on that. They would mostly debrief us after the exposure was over. And of course they’d write a scientific article about it. I’m not sure whether it was or not—it probably was because—gosh, methyl methacrylate, a lot of things they use in the carpets, 1,3-butadiene, propylene oxide, methyl methacrylate, and—it just goes on and on and on. Everything that’s in this room—potential carcinogen. A lot of the glues they put into the carpets and the dyes and stuff. A lot of the household cleaners—the chemicals and stuff they put in them—they’re—everything you do is bad. Everything you buy is bad. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER] Milliman: Yeah. Franklin: So let’s roll it back a little bit. Where actually—where were you born? Milliman: I was born in Washtucna, Washington. Franklin: Oh, okay, that’s right. And what year was that? Milliman: 1938. Franklin: 1938. Milliman, November 15, 1938. Franklin: And how long—did you grow up in Washtucna? Milliman: I don’t even remember being there. Then my parents moved from there to Spokane, out in Moran Prairie. Franklin: Okay. Milliman: My father was a farmer and he was also a steam engineer. We left Spokane—he had a small farm there—we left Spokane in 1947 and moved to Benton City. And he had a farm there. He worked for the Benton County road department. Then, before that, they had—the old prison camp out at Horn Rapids. Him being a steam engineer, he hired onto the Morrison-Knudsen construction company and he fired the boilers for the whole complex out there at the old prison place. Which, there was no prisoners there, but they’d converted it into almost like a small community for the construction workers. They had all the barracks and the hutments and—just like a small town there for a while. It’s all gone now, but— Franklin: Those were construction workers at Hanford? Milliman: Yeah, and they— Franklin: In the late ‘40s, early ‘50s? Milliman: Yeah, this was in the ‘50s. Most of them were working building railroads up—and construction work. Franklin: So then you went to school—so you said ’47, you moved to Benton City? Milliman: Yeah, I started third grade in Benton City. Then I graduated in 1956. Franklin: Then what did you do after you graduated? Milliman: Went up to work—went up to Seattle and hired on for Boeing at the Renton plant. We were making—we were working on the KC-135 tankers. They had me working the plumbing bays, tying down the bladders and the pumps and everything for the KC-135s. Then one day, after I was there about two months, the boss called and said come with me. Okay. So he took me over and he said, now you’re an electrician. [LAUGHTER] So went to school for that, and we wired up the tankers from the nose back to where they joined the wings on. And then—its assembly was from the nose back to where they put the wings on; no wings yet. And they were on tracks and when it would come time to move, they would just roll it down and another one would come into position. They would just—in one end, out the other. And one day I happened to look over and thought, what is that? That’s not a tanker. They said, well, that’s the first commercial jets—passenger. The first six were Pan-American—for Pan-American Airlines. We built six of those. And then the next one was American and Qantas and all of the foreign companies. But all a 707 was at that time was a KC-135 tanker with the fuel base taken out, and the boom and everything on the back for refueling. And they made that—[LAUGHTER] Boeing made a fortune off a government expense building those KC-135 tankers and doing all the design work and the engineering on them. And then they just simply made the 707 out of that tanker. After I was there a couple of years, in one part of the hangar, they started putting this big black shroud up from the ceiling to the floor. The rest of the crew says, what’s going on over there? The boss wouldn’t say anything, just shut up and mind your own business. These guys started walking around in suits with their dark glasses on inside the building—sunglasses. And they’re all leaning a little bit to their left. I got up close enough look and said, oh, this guy’s got a hog leg in there—he’s got a pistola. They were Secret Service. What they were doing there was building Air Force One. A 707—the first one. Franklin: Wow. Milliman: They picked six of us, and they assigned one of those Secret Service guys to two people. And he would follow you wherever you went—even to the bathroom. And I would—being me, I’d tell them a joke, and he’d just stare at you. [LAUGHTER] The boss’d call us in the office. You leave those guys alone. You don’t speak to them, you answer their questions, and that’s all there is to it. Well, I said, they haven’t got a sense of humor. [LAUGHTER] You especially—[LAUGHTER]—knock it off. Okay. If you came out of that shrouded area to go to the tool room to get a tool, a pair of footsteps right behind you. The guy’d say, what are you doing? Why do you need that? Ask you all kinds of questions. He’d look and check it all out, follow you right back in again. You go eat lunch, the guy’s sitting there looking in your lunchbox and seeing what you’re eating. Hey, want a sandwich? [LAUGHTER] Oh, oh, oh, back in the office, the boss shaking his finger at you. I left there in—I started getting homesick. I wanted to smell the sagebrush again and the cottonwoods in the springtime and all that fuzz they put out and everything. Then I came home and courted my girlfriend and got married. Then I went to work for General Electric in 1960. I had two boys and a girl. Was living and moved into Richland at that time, and then moved back to Benton City, which was my home. I’d been there all my life. Franklin: How long did you live in Richland for? Milliman: Probably two years. Franklin: Where did you live in Richland? Milliman: Oh. Marshall Street. Don’t remember the exact address, but it was on Marshall. I’d come in on Van Giesen. Moved from there, rented a place there, and then moved to Benton City and bought a home and raised the kids up. Got them up through high school. They graduated there. Then, like I say, went to Montana for almost three years. Then back home for Battelle. Franklin: What did your wife do when you worked at Hanford? Milliman: She—just a homemaker. She worked at grocery store, checker. And we got a divorce in—gosh—imagine that. I can’t even remember. The kids all got married. They had kids. Then I remarried. Wife’s a registered nurse, works here at Life Care Center in Richland. Franklin: Oh, okay. Milliman: Very talented person. And she will come home and tell me strange stories that happens there. Like this one fellow was in this motorized scooter. And he was just dying for a cigarette. Nobody would give him a cigarette. So he got in his motorized scooter and he escaped out the door. He went down to the corner to the 7-Eleven store and buy him a pack of cigarettes. Now, this guy is on oxygen. And he come back, and he lit up. My wife, Christine, said she heard, my goodness! That man’s on fire! She said they all rushed out the door! [LAUGHTER] And the guy’s on fire, and they got the fire out. It melted the plastic right into his face. And she says, every time I look at him, I can hear that. That man’s on fire! And he’s still there. Then they have—she says that one person in particular keeps calling the Richland police and telling them that—hey, they kidnapped me. They’re holding me against my will. [LAUGHTER] And she says the police show up with their hands on their guns. She says, I just put my hands up and say it’s a false alarm. About the third time he calls, they’ll say, well take his phone away from him then. [LAUGHTER] Some of the funny things that happen in life. Franklin: So when you worked for—what did you do when you worked for GE and Douglas United? Milliman: We were metal handlers, which meant they were canning up six an agent uranium slugs for the reactors. A metal handler, all he did was they had—you’d stand in front of this hydraulic machine that the metal carrier, after they got—dipped those things in the hot aluminum and silicon, inside of aluminum can, then the guy who had a pair of tongs, he’d come over and he’d put them in these two baskets. And the baskets would drop into the water, come up, and drop again. And then the basket would turn towards you, and my job was you pulled slugs out. They had a metal container around them. You had to scrape the aluminum and silicon off the metal can. And then you took out the uranium slug that was clad in aluminum and put it in the pallet. The process went on like that all day long. Then I moved back to final inspection. The lights were so bright in this cubicle we had. And you would look at the welds—they had to weld endcaps on these slugs and you had to look for pinholes and voids. I did that for a year or so, and then I went to final inspection, which we were radiographing, x-raying the slugs for voids and stuff. Beside the station there where we were radiographing these slugs, there were about 30 autoclaves, just—they stood up about this high above the metal floor. There’s 200-pound hydraulic door that closed on those autoclaves, and what they would do, they would load 60 of these slugs—these uranium slugs—in a basket. They had little round cylinders, and you’d put the slug in so they wouldn’t bump against each other. You’d put six in the basket, and they’d get an array of six baskets, which were 240 slugs. They all had a hole in the basket through the center. They would load this—put this big steel rod down through the baskets and they’d put a pin in the bottom. And the crane would come overhead and pick that whole stack up and lower it down into the autoclave. Then the operator would give the signal, close the door. Then he had a pipe—there was a handle sticking out, and he had a pipe he’d stick under a big cheater bar. And he would pull that door shut and the locking lugs would all come out and lock the lid on there. Now, on the end of that pipe on the door was a round hole. Underneath of it was a hydraulic device that had a pin in it. And the pin had to come up and go through that hole in the handle before he could ever bring it up on pressure. He’s looking at his control panel, okay, this one’s okay. I’m going to bring it up on tremendous pressure—steam pressure. We were radiographing our slugs, me and this other employee. Pretty soon the floor started shaking. What? Earthquake? What? And then we seen the operator. He got up and he started walking over towards this one autoclave. His head come up, and his head come up and he looked like a giraffe. He looked like his head was this high above his body. He looked, and he just turned and started to run, because he could see that door on that autoclave shuddering. And that pin had just barely touched the edge of that hole and give him the signal that the door was locked, which it was not. And that thing just worked that door around until it got past the locking lugs. The hinge pin on that 200-pound door was two-inch solid steel. It snapped that like a toothpick. It blew the lid off, and blew it up through the roof and stuck it right in the monorail—the crane rail, and just bent a big U and stuck right there. The steam pressure on that started firing those baskets and those uranium slugs—it was just like a cannon barrel. You know—zoom—boy. Me and this other fellow jumped onto this steel table. And the workers that were on the outside of the building, they said they seen those baskets and those slugs go 80 feet above the building and then they came back down through the roof, back down on us. And these things were hitting—dropping all around us. And of course me and him were under the table. People scattered. It just happened to be that this was right at shift change. The other crew was coming in; we was getting ready to leave. And right in the middle, that thing went through the roof. What was—after the slugs kept raining down, after they stopped, me and that fellow underneath there was on our hands and knees and we started laughing—just giggling insanely. [LAUGHTER] You know what, because you can hear these things hitting above you on that table—ba-ding, ba-ding. Then the criticality alarm went off. And that wasn’t funny. We thought, uh-oh. One of those slugs ruptured and we’re all crapped up. And that’s what they—crapped up. And then they told us that it was a false alarm—which seemed kind of strange. Criticality alarm going off. But the bad thing about working back then for General Electric and Douglas United Nuclear was they picked six or eight of us—I think there were eight of us—and they took us out of the 313 Building where we were canning slugs up. They took us over in this Butler Building, they called them. A tin—kind of a tin shack. Went in there, and all this fancy equipment in there and a great big, long, open-front hood. What are we doing here? We had a supervisor, his name was Paul Rhoades. They called him Dusty Rhoades. He said, you guys have been picked—[LAUGHTER]—for guinea pigs. [LAUGHTER] Well, yeah, what’s new? [LAUGHTER] They had designed a process to can up thorium. And thorium is a white powder; it’s just like flour, like a sandy flour. It was for the atomic subs, and they used that on the front face of the reactor in the sub as a biological shield, because thorium oxide is not radiation-wise as hot as uranium slugs. Franklin: But they were the fuel element? Milliman: Fuel element, yeah. Franklin: But they were safer. Milliman: Instead of uranium, it was thorium. Instead of a uranium slug, it was thorium oxide. Thorium oxide is a bone seeker. Cancer of the bones and stuff. Once, when we first started out—now, we’re working in this open-faced hood, and we’re pounding this stuff in the can. You got a—oh, it’s a rod about this big around with a flat on top. And it comes on a conveyor belt to you. The scale is weighing it out on an electronic scale. And these are little tin cylinders. You take it and you got a funnel thing here and you put the aluminum can in and lock it down. Pour the thorium oxide into the can and then pound it in there. You had a mark on that tamping bar that you had to put it down, get it to that mark, or else it would cause a variation in the quantity that was in there. You had to put it all in, or no go. There were six of us pounding that stuff into those cans. Now, you had a pair of white coveralls on, you had your surgeon gloves on, taped at the wrist, and you had a leather glove. No respirator, no anything. You just—the glass came down about nose-high. And you were working with that stuff, and it was just a white fog in front of you. Now, when they’d blow the whistle for you to go to lunch, what we would do was we would—and we were—that powder would be all the way up to your elbows. You could see it on your coveralls. You would brush your coveralls off, and then you would take the leather gloves off, and you would take the tape off, and leave your surgeon gloves inside there in the trash. And then we would all come out of there and walk over to the step-off pad, and all six of us are getting out of our coveralls and—I thought, man, that stuff’s got to be going airborne. Then we’d take the Scintran. We’re okay, no bad stuff on us. They would take us down, when we first started out, once every two weeks to the Whole Body Counter. They’d scan us from head to foot. Then it got to be once a month, and then once every two months. They pulled me out of there and they said, you eat a lot of fish? No, why? They say, you got a high zinc content in you. And I didn’t think much of it at the time. But I got my dose reconstruction back here in 2012. I was contaminated with thorium oxide, which turns into some exotic thing, so they say. And they had the audacity to tell me I picked it up in the 1960s during atomic testing. And it just happened to be thorium oxide, which—anyways. [LAUGHTER] I turned the claim in, which was denied. But for the other three cancers, I got compensated for that. Two basal cell carcinomas and one other cancer that is pretty common in a male—prostate cancer. They compensated me for that, which—it doesn’t make up for your health now. But I just got examined the second. In fact, the Cold War Patriots, which I’m very proud of—to be a member of—they found the asbestos in my lungs when they gave me my—every three years you’re allowed a complete physical. They go over you from head to foot, and they picked up the asbestos in my lungs. Franklin: Wow. Milliman: And then the second, they told me because of that, they told me I have COPD and lung capacity is at half. Which makes it hard to do anything. Franklin: Oh. Milliman: Went to Cancun—my wife and I—on vacation. They got a mile-and-a-half zip line there—1.7 miles. Of course, the towers—the different towers you got to get on. [LAUGHTER] Take me a half-hour to get onto the top of the tower. Run out of steam before you get there. It’s been an interesting life; it’s been an interesting career. While we were in canning up thorium oxide, they had—they were all plywood walls, and they had that—it was like crepe paper insulation back in the days when they built those back in the ‘42s and ‘43s. And sat there, and I happened to look at the wall. They had painted the wall with a white epoxy paint. I got to looking at the wall, and, man, that thing’s blowing bubbles. I told the guy, and he looked over and said, how come that wall’s bubbling? I don’t know. So we come out of the hood, got cleaned up and went over there. Was looking at the wall and that epoxy would blow a bubble and then pop. What’s going on here? Well, little did we know there was a welder on the outside of that tin building. And he was welding us up some gas manifold pipes, and he set that insulation on fire. We had a big exhaust fan up in the attic and it was whipping that up—the flame up through there—and it was blistering that plywood epoxy paint. And the boss come over and said, what are you guys doing? Get over and get to work! He said, what are you doing? I said, well, we’re looking at the wall here. He’s looking and he said, how come that’s bubbling? [LAUGHTER] He says, do you see any smoke? He says, no. And they have where they’d plugged—patched the plywood with the—you’ve probably seen it—little square there, a diamond-shaped thing in the plywood where they’ve patched a hole in. One of them popped out. And he looked and he said, uh-oh, I see some fire. Now, you guys just stay here. He went and locked the door! He stepped out and locked us in there! And then he pointed to the back, which—it was a step-off pad off the back, a concrete area they had roped off. We could go out there and stand. And here come the firetruck. He missed the place, he backed up and come, and the other guy’s still welding. He don’t know he set the building on fire. And they chopped a hole in it, put the fire out. Boss sent us to lunch. We come back, never missed a lick. Just went right back to work again. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. [LAUGHTER] That’s— Milliman: That was kind of sad. One of the sad things was I was watching the TV and they detonated the smokestack out at 100 F. I thought, man, that was right beside the building we were working in. Franklin: Do you remember any Navy officials ever coming to inspect the process-- Milliman: Navy? Franklin: --you were working on? Milliman: Navy? Franklin: Yeah, because you said you were making these slugs for the nuclear submarines. Milliman: Yeah. And we didn’t know that until after we got—we did two different sessions over there, two different years. Never seen any Navy personnel—of course, we were just—we were just the employees, and not privy to that. But with Battelle, that was different. When the sponsor—NCI or any of the dignitaries from the companies that we had a contract with, they would all come and talk to us. I can remember, we got called in the office—a good friend of mine that worked there with me and his name was Gary Ell. The sponsor—and he was the head hog, I mean over everything—he was in the change room with us. And when we’d first seen him, about a year before that, he was huge. He was a very large man, almost a beast. When he come the second time, I swear, he must have lost 200 pounds, because he looked normal, you know. And he was in the change room with Gary and I, and we were suiting up getting ready to go into one of the sterile zones. And Gary said, I bet I know what—well, first the sponsor said, hey, what do you think, guys? I lost about 200 pounds. Yeah. Gary said, you know what? This guy’s name was Joe. He said, I bet I know what Joe’s thinking about right now. I said, what? He said, I bet he’s thinking about a big chocolate milkshake. [LAUGHTER] The guy had some choice words for us. And next thing you know, we were sitting in the boss’s office and he’s shaking his finger at us. [LAUGHTER] If you couldn’t put some humor into the situations we were in, it wasn’t worth being there, because— Franklin: Right! Milliman: [LAUGHTER] But it’s been very rewarding for me, all except the—like I say, back then they didn’t know what asbestos—the danger of that, and the potential carcinogens. Franklin: Right. Milliman: But been very rewarding. Franklin: Do you—were you working onsite, or do you remember when they started to bring the spent nuclear—the submarine reactors back-- Milliman: No. Franklin: --to be buried onsite? Milliman: We had nothing to do with that whatsoever. We were just making the fuel for them. We never got—weren’t privy to what happened afterwards. Franklin: Oh, okay. Milliman: But we didn’t know that was for the atomic subs until—it was quite a while after they finally told us, hey, you’re canning up fuel for the atomic subs. Franklin: Kind of interesting, though, to think that you canned that fuel and then now Hanford is the repository for all of the spent reactors. That they cut them up and buried them in the same place. Milliman: Yeah. A friend of mine, he just retired. He was working out there for CH2M Hill and a bunch of other contractors. His job was to go sample the burial grounds after they dig them up. He had a lot of interesting stories to tell about that. One thing that—[LAUGHTER] This was during the ‘60s. If you recall, in the paper, Hanford put out a news blurb about any of the duck hunters. They were checking thyroids on ducks, and they wanted you to bring your duck heads in—their neck and their head, so they could check them. And they come up with some strange reason why they were doing this. Well, a friend of ours, he brought this big old mallard duck in. That thing was so hot, he ought not have been anywhere near that thing. They grabbed him and scrubbed him down until his skin was bleeding. Those ducks were going out to the cooling ponds out in the Area, which weren’t screened over at that time. And ducks were dabbling down at the bottom, picking up strontium-90 and all these radioactive elements. And then that guy’s got that duck in his hand and put the Scintran up there and that thing went nuts. And they scrambled and suited up. And they never did come out with why they were doing that until later on. It finally came out that those ducks—you know, they see a big pond out there, they go out there and dabble around in it and get crapped up. Franklin: When did they finally start screening those, do you remember? Milliman: Oh. No, it was—that must—they had them all screened over by—probably by ’75. If I recall, it was about that time. But that friend of mine said, boy, they scrubbed me until I was bleeding. Oh, they went to his home, also. Franklin: Oh, wow. Milliman: And they tore up the carpets, furniture—everything. Because he come in the house, hey look at this duck I got you. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. So later, when you worked for Battelle, you said that you had done that animal testing, and you introduced animals to nickel oxide and cobalt oxide. Why those two chemicals? Were those used at Hanford, or did those have other applications? Milliman: Other applications: commercial. Most of the testing was manufacturing-type applications, like the asbestos concrete exposure that I was on. That was the sawdust off of transite pipes. When the craftsman would saw the pipes to length, he’s inhaling that transite pipe dust, and he don’t know there’s asbestos in it. Most of the—well, in fact, all of the contracts we got were to test whether they were potential carcinogens. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—so when you were doing cigarettes, then, was it—when you were doing this, was it known that they were—obviously, most people, like, knew, but was it a stated fact, federally, or— Milliman: Not at that time, no. Franklin: Or did your research help lead to that? Milliman: Yeah. We got that contract from the National Cancer Institute. Later on, for Battelle, they did a—maybe it was Liggett and Myers. They were doing a cigarette exposure, which was very hush-hush. Nobody would tell you a thing about what went on in that room. Even the technician was sworn to silence. Because of the manufacturer of that product, not because there was anything sneaky going on; they just didn’t want it to get out before they finished the study. And also expose them to diesel exhaust smoke. Franklin: Oh. Milliman: We went over to Kennewick one time, right there on the main street. We set up an air sampler on all four corners. The asbestos content in the air was higher than it was in Johns-Mansfield’s where they’re putting these asbestos bats together for insulation for homes. The reason for that, it was coming off the break rooms. There was asbestos in the break rooms. And the cars going by kept that stuff fanned up. You walk down the street, you’re taking on asbestos. And then we went to all the food stores around and bought different liver—hog liver, beef liver, chicken liver. Dashed that down, went to the chemical analysis of it. [LAUGHTER] I would never, ever—I never liked it anyway—but I would never, ever eat liver. There was Dibestrol and growth inhibitors, hormones, heavy metal. [LAUGHTER] No liver for me! [LAUGHTER] But that—all these things they’ve been pumping in all these animals, in these feed lots and everything, Dibestrol and growth stimulators and hormones, left a residue in the liver, which is the collecting point of everything—your filter. And then people are eating that and they’re ingesting it and it’s sticking with you. Franklin: Yeah. Wow. Were you working—you were working onsite when JFK visited in 1963. Did you go to the dedication at the N Reactor? Milliman: Yes, went out to see him, yeah. Franklin: What do you remember about that? Milliman: I can remember him saying, boy, you have a hot country here. And he was pulling on his—here. That was a thrill, to see the helicopters, there he comes! And they said, no, that’s the decoy. And then they finally came in and landed. It was just blistering hot that day. People were passing out in the crowd. It was—you couldn’t see the ground for the people, I mean, there was hundreds out there. It was very hot. But that was kind of a thrilling thing to see the President. Big to-do about it, of course. Franklin: Were there any other events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you were working there that—or at Battelle that stand out to you, besides the couple explosions you mentioned? Milliman: Just minor humorous things that had happened. One time, they brought all these Japanese dignitaries. Now, our aerosol physicist was named Douglas K. Craig. And he was a very proper person. He called me an illiterate savage. But that was early on in my career. When I hired in, he was the—I worked for the doctor, the German. And Douglas K. Craig was the aerosol physicist. The doctor got the contract; the aerosol physicist was responsible for the outcome and the design and everything. Me being an old country kid at that time—his speech and his manner, and being so stiff and prim and proper, you know, kind of made me chuckle. I proved him wrong a couple of times. And he would say, but that cannot be! That cannot be! [LAUGHTER] Well, it is! [LAUGHTER] Anyway, I endeared myself to him by just using common sense, and he and I got to be—he’d come and ask me, he’d say, how would you do this? And all it was was common sense—an uncanny knack of figuring out how to generate all these exotic chemicals we were using. The one thing I do remember, before the asbestos exposure ever started, they had this huge cylinder, and it was—it had this tube with a plunger in the bottom. And they’d put the asbestos in there and screw it in the bottom of this big column. And it had the air jets going in. It would suck the asbestos—you had to maintain the concentration within 10% for six hours. Which—pbbt—there went the asbestos in the chamber. So the engineers—aerosol physicists, they worked on this thing for months. We were about ready to lose the contract. And they finally gave up on it. And I asked them, I said, hey, what are you going to do with that generator? And they said, well, we’re going to junk it, bury it. Can I play with that thing? Humph! Yeah, sure, Mr. Einstein, go ahead. By the time I got done, that asbestos generator was this tall, and by chance, I found out you had to pack that stuff into the tube and tamp it down—13 grams in exactly seven inches. I turned that thing on, and I couldn’t find an aggregate that the air jets wouldn’t—I didn’t want the air jets to blow in there and send that stuff out. I tried pieces of gravel, and I tried little kid’s jacks—I cut them up and put them in there, and they’re rattling around on top. And everything got dull. I even took some screws and cut them in half and dropped in there. Anyway, I was sitting there one day trying to—I thought, boy, you’re a dummy if you can’t figure this out. And I had a bunch of crucibles, and the lids sitting on the shelf there. And I thought, ceramic, ceramic, I wonder. So I took the crucible lid and put it in a paper towel and took a hammer and beat it up. And I took those pieces and I looked and I said, well, that one looks about right. I picked up four of them and I dropped in that tube and that stuff started rattling around. They never did get dull. The first—we were shooting for 24 micrograms per liter. And the first sample I took was 23.9. And I thought, wow! So I got ahold of the aerosol physicist and he come over. And I had all my data; I’d been taking samples of that all day long. And he come over and he says, what is this? No, that can’t be! Yeah, it can be. I said an illiterate savage like me, I’ve got enough brains to figure this out, you know that? Dr. Douger. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, we got the contract. He would walk around me and look at me and he said, but you have no—you have no education, you know. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, well? All mine come from common sense. And that would infuriate him. But went up to his office one day, why, fellow technician, and he had a rock as a paperweight there. It was kind of a U-shaped rock. And I said, Doug! He said, you’ll address me as Dr. Douglas K. Craig. Doctor will be fine. That’s okay. Douger, where’d you get that rock? [LAUGHTER] Lay some of this hillbilly stuff on him. He said, why? I said, you know what? Where’d you get that? And he said, well, my walk down at the river one day. [LAUGHTER] I said, my gosh. Don’t you agree? And my partner, he said, oh yeah. He went right along with me, you know. He said, why? What? I said, do you know what that is? That’s a left-handed Indian throwing rock! He says, what? Oh my! An artifact? And I said, yeah! See how it fits your hand? I said, the Indians throw them and knock them jackrabbits over. And he said, oh my! And he took it away from me. He was looking at it, and—[LAUGHTER]—he put it there and said, wow. I’ll cherish that. An artifact. Wow! And he was talking to himself. About that time, the other scientists come in, and they knew we were a couple of jokers. And he come in—his name was John Belue. And John heard what we were doing, and when we come out of the office, he said, you better hope he never finds out. [LAUGHTER] What that junk of rock. And I said, my goodness, maybe we ought to not play that joke on him. But Dr. Douglas K. Craig and I ended up being good friends. He finally—he moved down to California and went to work for another research outfit. And he would call me up. And he’d say, Edward, my friend! And when he’d start that, I knew he wanted to know something. And when I got the device that I patented, the calls were coming in from all over the world—foreign companies, research outfits—because the device they had on the market was the Dust Right Speedmill. And it was very unstable way of generating any kind of particulate or solids. And it would break down. Very poor performance on them. When I made that device, all you had to do was pour the powder in. Two working parts, two bottle brushes, one spirally wound like an auger, the other was flexible brush. And it was just in a—you’d pour the—it had a Lucite—I made it on my kitchen table one night. About a year later, after I got the patent on it, I checked in to see what they were selling them—Battelle Development Corporation made a nice design and stainless steel and--$15,000 a pop. For two bottle brushes. I got one silver dollar for the patent and taken to supper, and that was that. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Milliman: [LAUGHTER] So, they’re making money hand-over-fist on me. But a lot of people calling for reprints. I had to write a technical report on that, and they published it. I didn’t bring one of them copies with me, but I got calls from all the world—scientists wanting to know about it, how—I say, well you can make it yourself on your kitchen table. And there’s the boss, whopped me on the head, don’t tell them that! Sell it to them, you dope! [LAUGHTER] But that was probably the highlight of my career, was the—just common sense. Now, the scientists and the doctors—12, 13, 15 years of college education. But they don’t teach them anything about common sense. And that’s all I ever worked on, was—being a farm kid, having to repair your own machinery, things like that. It wasn’t hard to figure out how to endear myself to the company by just using common sense. Franklin: That’s great. Just a couple more questions, I guess, until we move on to the stuff you brought, which I’m really excited to have you narrate. Do you remember—how did—sorry—do you remember any impact from large nuclear incidents on your work, like Three-Mile Island or Chernobyl? Because you would have been working for Battelle at that time. Do you remember any particular impact of those incidents on your work or kind of the attitude of the work or people here? Milliman: I remember reading it in the paper, and wondering how much of that stuff was going around the world in the airstreams. Probably paid more mind to Chernobyl when it blew its stack. Now, when Mount St. Helens blew up, I was in Yakima. I was going up and going camping. I spent the night in Yakima. I woke up, I thought it was too early and went back to sleep. I woke up, and I thought, my goodness. Did I sleep all day? It’s getting dark out. And I turned the radio on, and—uh-oh. I took off for home, and I just beat that dust cloud down to Benton City. Most of it went over the top of us, like, end up at Moses Lake and Spokane and—but we got the contract for exposing hamsters to Mount St. Helens fly ash. And if you looked at the fly ash under a microscope, it looked like—it was kind of crystalline, and it was—it looked like a little kid’s jack they play with, but a million spikes sticking on that thing. It looked like a sandbur. And that stuff, when you inhaled it, just cut your lungs up to pieces. Franklin: Oh, I bet. Wow. How did the atmosphere surrounding the Cold War affect your job or your life? Did you notice anything, or can you recall anything? Milliman: A lot of contracts from the Army. A lot of contracts. And, like I say, one of them was the CS2 with the disabler in it. A lot of activity that nobody would say anything about. They’d say, hey, what you guys working on? What you fellas working on? Blank stare and walk on, you know. You’d better not ask them anymore. But a lot of activity from the Army. Didn’t seem—I don’t think I ever saw any Navy personnel; if I did, they weren’t in uniform. A lot of strange people around that time coming and going. Franklin: What about living here, living next to Hanford and all the activities? Did you ever feel like maybe you were safe because of all the Army attention here, or maybe you were not safe because Hanford might be a target if a war ever broke out? Milliman: I always thought about it being a target, being there were quite a number of reactors out there. You thought, well, if they’re going to hit something, it’ll probably be Hanford. Never lived in any fear of it, but when they start all this down-winders stuff in the papers—contamination from Hanford, that did make me kind of wonder. It didn’t make me feel ill-at-ease, but it just—you didn’t know what you were inhaling. You didn’t know what was coming down the ground that the cows were eating and you were drinking your milk, which ended up being a big deal in later years. My children never thought much about it, either. My brothers and sisters did, and they all moved away to different places. I told them, hey, you can’t outrun the air currents. That stuff’s coming down all over. Especially during the atomic testing, when they were— Once they sent me to—Battelle sent me to University of Davis to represent them. This was—I’d only worked there about a year-and-a-half, two years, maybe, at the most. They sent me down there and little did I know they—[LAUGHTER]—They sprung me as their guest speaker. I didn’t know anything about it. Boss of mine set that up. Boy, I thought, my goodness, what in the world am I going to talk about? And I thought, you got to put some humor in this thing. Because I’m shaking. I’m young and dumb and I said, whoo! And all these people sitting there watching me, all the dignitaries and the—I said, well, we’re doing research with hamsters. And most of these were all hamster people. It was a big hamster research convention there. I said, the first thing you have to do, as you all know, is you got to get them loose from your finger. [LAUGHTER] Those are the bitingest animals in the world. Everybody thinks they’re so sweet and cuddly, until it latches onto your finger. And I can remember when we were making them—introducing them to cigarette smoke—of course they had the smoking dogs out there, too, which are famous, you know, every time they mention the—and those dogs were addicted. They’d fight you for a cigarette. You’d open the cage and they’d jump right in your arm and stick their head in the mask. You know, put the cigarette in and light it up, boys! But I can remember many times those hamsters latching on and locking their jaws up and biting you right through the fingernail, right to the bone. You’d have to take the handle on the pair of tweezers and jack his jaw open to get your finger back out. If the boss knew this he’d kill me. We had this one particular hamster, he didn’t bite you—I mean, he’d go after you. He’d bite you every time you—most of them, they’d bite you once and let it go at that. But this one he’d bite you ever time you got near him. And he’d just defy you. Pick me up, I’m going to bite you. Well, me and my partner said, what do you think? Well, I’m tired of him biting me. I hope he’ll pretty soon. Maybe he’ll die. He wouldn’t die. So we grabbed him one day, got him by the scruff of the neck and we took him by the side cutter and cut his teeth off. And after that, he’d chomp down on you, and hey, can’t bite, you know! Well, for the rest of his life, we had to soften up his food and feed him so he wouldn’t die. He couldn’t bite you. But we said maybe we ought to not done that. Those hamsters—what actually—the asbestos hamsters were the only ones that would do this. Their water nipple hung above their head, and you had a big water tree you’d put on the cage. And that’s how they got their water. They’d take their finger and stick in that water nipple and sit in there and let the water run on them. We’d sit there and watch through the window. And of course, they’d make a terrible mess. Because we had them on these racks, and we had absorbent pads underneath of them. In the morning when we’d take them out, we’d have to roll that pad up and put it in the garbage. Well, they’d just flood that thing. Their tray had a lip around it. It was an awful mess to clean up. So we got to watching them—we’d look through the window at night. And there they are, they’re taking their finger and sticking it in that water nozzle and letting the water coming down there and they’re showering and shampooing and shaving. We’d go in there and quit that, quit that. They’d all quit, and the minute we’d leave, there they are with their finger in the water nipple taking a shower. Franklin: And it was only the asbestos ones? Milliman: Only the asbestos animals did that. Franklin: Interesting. Do you think that was maybe like some kind of neurological--? Milliman: I think it was the fibers tickling them and itching them. Franklin: Oh. Milliman: Because that stuff was all over them. Franklin: Right. Interesting. So, anybody else have any questions? Emma Rice: Yeah. Minor clarification. When you worked at Battelle, what was your job position exactly? Milliman: Started—hired in just as a—well, for Battelle, it was just technician. Rice: Technician. Because you went from being a metal handler to— Milliman: Yeah, from General Electric, they called us a metal handler. Rice: Mm-hmm. Milliman: Then they made me the inhalation specialist. And then things kind of slowed down, so I kind of got demoted back to a technician again, and that’s when we went into the control rooms and each of us had an assigned control room that we ran. Many, many different chemicals would go through them control rooms that we were generating. Everything potential carcinogen. I like that word. Potential carcinogen. [LAUGHTER] Formaldehyde—that’s some bad stuff, too. Franklin: So, should we do the pictures now? Hungate: Okay. I’m going to stop now. Franklin: Okay. Hungate: Change— [NEW CLIP] Milliman: “About air pollution except the U. S. Patent Office which has awarded a patent to the Department of Energy for a device that will ‘deliver uniform concentrations of dust for a long period of time.’ It was developed by Edward E. Milliman at the Pacific Northwest Laboratory operated for DOE by Battelle Memorial Institute. People, however, need have no fear as the dust is used in research to test the potential health effects of dust compounds when inhaled into the lungs of laboratory animals. Some of the tested dusts have talc powder, CS2, and Mount St. Helen’s ash. The prototype of the unit cost is about $50.00, and the number is 4,424,896 – if anyone cares.” Franklin: So this was the device you invented that then they were selling for— Milliman: Yeah. Franklin: $15,000? Milliman: 15,000. Rice: Do you want me to take some of these smaller ones? Milliman: Yeah. Now, this is how you make a hamster smoke cigarettes. Franklin: And that’s you? Milliman: That’s me, 1970. Boy, I had a lot of hair. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Milliman: There’s 30 cigarettes in this turn, and it will take a puff off of each cigarettes, and then it rotates, and there’s 30 hamsters in these tubes. They have no choice. The smoke comes down through this column here. They have no choice. Franklin: I forgot to ask you—did you ever smoke cigarettes? Milliman: Yes, I did. Franklin: Okay. Milliman: After we took the lungs out of these animals, I put the cigarettes in the garbage can and never smoked since. Franklin: Wow. Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Milliman: This one of the exposure chambers. This is where they—each rat— Hungate: Whoops, just one second, we’re getting quite a bit of glare. Milliman: Okay. Rice: Can you hold it from the top? See if you can hold it flat. There we go. Franklin: There we go. That looks good. Milliman: This is the exposure chamber, designed by Battelle. Rats and mice and hamsters were all individual in each compartment. And then I think they would a couple hundred critters. The—whatever you’re going to make them inhale comes down a pipe and goes into the top and it’s exhausted out the bottom. The doors are glass, so you can watch—observe the animals. Franklin: Wow. Rice: Was this just for smoking—the cigarette smoke—or was this--? Milliman: No, any kind of chemical. Rice: Any kind of chemical. Milliman: Vapors, dust—any kind of compound. Rice: Okay. Next one? Hungate: It’s the smoker. Rice: The smoker, yeah. That’s what I was thinking. Milliman: And that’s how you load a hamster into a smoking tube after you get him off your finger. Now, you can see here that the one—he’s saying, uh-oh, I’m next. And it was also the asbestos exposure. This is all the protection we had on. Just a white paper face mask. Franklin: Wow. Milliman: And this is one guy that—this is what they do. You take them apart, all the way from his nose, all the way down. Take samples, everything, make slides, and it goes to histology, pathology. Rice: New one. Here. Milliman: This was what your lungs will look like if you inhaled Mount St. Helen fly ash. Franklin: Wow. So what is the lighter one there on the— Milliman: NEFA is Nickel Enriched Fly Ash, which has a high content of nickel in it. And the one on the far right is a normal lung. Franklin: Okay. Wow. Rice: And the one on the middle is also— Milliman: That’s nickel-enriched fly ash. The one on the far left is just fly ash. Franklin: What was the level of exposure here to get this? Milliman: Probably 25 micrograms per liter. It is equivalent to what a human breathes. Everything was scaled down hamster-size compared to a human. Franklin: So if you just were walking around and breathing it— Milliman: Right, correct. Franklin: How would that compare to, say, cigarette smoking? Milliman: Cigarette smoke is a long-term thing. Nickel-enriched fly ash is short-term—that does the damage right away. There’s no long period to it. Cigarette smoke, the latency period on that is years. People smoke for years. Franklin: I guess, like—the damage that’s done, is that equivalent to a certain number of years of smoking? Milliman: No, this— Franklin: Or is it kind of a different— Milliman: This is different here. The lifespan after you inhale this stuff, everyday compared to a cigarette, is very, very short. Cigarette you last quite a bit longer. Hungate: So on that—I’m just a little curious—so was that fly ash from— Milliman: Mount St. Helen’s. Hungate: But it’s not after the explosion, because that’s dated ’77 and the explosion was in ’82. Milliman: Well, see, they stored this stuff up and we didn’t do the exposure until after that thing blew up. Now these lungs here were probably some of the preliminary stuff. Because they were testing volcanoes from around the world. Hungate: Oh, so, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. Hungate: So this was just volcanic fly ash, as opposed to— Milliman: Yeah. Hungate: --Mount St. Helens. Franklin: Oh, okay. So that explains the date. Rice: Do you have another one? Milliman: This was the asbestos concrete exposure. Now, this was probably in ’78. And you can see here they finally started figuring out that asbestos was bad for you. Compared to white paper face masks, this— Franklin: Right. Now you have a full-body, looks like you have a respirator mask. Milliman: Yup. We had rubber overshoes on, Tyvek protective clothing, and respirator. Franklin: Wow. Milliman: This just to have to be around exposure chamber there. These were with hamsters also. Franklin: Wow. That’s great. Milliman: And we are smoking rats. [LAUGHTER] We’re doing the physiology on it. That’s a graph machine, it’s like a lie detector. We’re doing the testing on their respiratory rate, their heart rate. Everything’s sterile. To get where I’m at right there, you had to shower and shave and disinfect and be fully protected. That’s to keep us from giving them disease. It’s not to protect us from the animals. It’s to protect the rats and the mice and the hamsters. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Milliman: Here we’re doing the same thing. This is when you go red, you’re on actual exposure from the contractor. Franklin: So—oh, so there were different color suits for— Milliman: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. So red would be when you were directly working with chemical—with the particulates? Milliman: Not necessarily, but that’s what they wanted from us. There was no difference in—other than the color of the—everything’s sterile and sanitized. Franklin: Is that so that other people working would know that you would be— Milliman: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Rice: There’s just these. Do you want to talk about those at all? Milliman: [LAUGHTER] This is one of the funny things that happened to me. Girlfriend and I were over at the Black Angus in Pasco. We were sitting in the booth and we were eating our supper, steak and mushrooms, and having a fine time. Started getting quiet. I’d already paid for my bill and ordered a cup of coffee and we were sitting there drinking a cup of coffee. Got awful quiet. So I got up and there was nobody around. So we went to go out the door—we guessed everybody left—so we started to go out the door. Well, the door’s locked, we can’t get out. I went in the kitchen hollering, hey, hey, let us out! Bartender gone, kitchen gone, nobody’s there. I got on the pay telephone and called 9-1-1, and I said, hey, we’re locked in the Black Angus. Said, what? [LAUGHTER] Are you playing a joke? No! We want to go home! I got to go to work tomorrow! [LAUGHTER] So they said, what’s your phone number there? So I give them the phone number, they called the place next door. The next door place called us. Phone rang, I picked it up. Yeah, we’re here. He called back, they said, they’re in there. So they figured what happened was we hid in there and we were going to rob the place but we couldn’t get out. So they called me back and they said, well, okay, we’re coming down. I said, don’t come with the police dogs and the guns and stuff and the sirens, because I got to go to work tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] So they—here they come. We were sitting there waiting on them, and there was a little console there and there was some kind of video machine that she and I were trying to figure out how to play. And all at once I told her, don’t move, keep your hands on the table. She said, why? I said, I smell a cop. And slowly, both of us turned our heads, and there were three heads peeking around the door at us. They came in, and they all had their hands on their guns. Whoa, fellas. Get your hands off that hog leg, you’re making me nervous. I’ve been shot once and it ain’t fun. They really questioned us. How’d you get in here? Said, well—they had this manager with them. And he said, you pay for your supper? And I said, yeah, and left a tip. If you keep on being mean to me, I want my tip back. And I kept looking to one police officer, one that came back from Montana and worked at the Bon Marche before they opened up. Me and him were in there as a security guard. He was moonlighting because he was a Pasco cop. And I kept looking at him, I said, Archie Pittman? Archie Pittman? And he looked mad! He said, what are you doing here? I said, just eating supper. And he said, okay, guys, I know him. Let him go. But that come out in the paper said, they knew businesses was hard up for patrons but they didn’t think they was going to lock them up just to keep them! [LAUGHTER] And this is my old friend—I was in the Cub Scouts, I think it was? Me and my old Poncho. Old lifelong friend. Franklin: That’s cute. Milliman: That’s the box elder tree my brother dove behind to— Hungate: Dodge the bullets? Milliman: Dodging a bullet. Rice: There you go. Milliman: Great. Franklin: Well, thank you so much. Milliman: Well, I hope I didn’t make a fool out of myself— Franklin: You did not. Milliman: Or bore you to death. Franklin: No, it was really exciting. It really was! You have some great stories. Hungate: He’s a story teller. Milliman: Man, please behave yourself. Don’t lay that hillbilly stuff on them. [LAUGHTER] <a href="https://youtu.be/h3TfrARrCto">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:31:58 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 3000 Area 313 Building N Reactor Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Milliman Description An account of the resource An interview with Edward Milliman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07-06-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-29-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/23">Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata</a> 3000 Area 313 Building Battelle Boeing Cancer Cat Cold War Department of Energy drinking General Electric Hanford Kennewick N Reactor Safety Street War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F103b0c7bf5df4cc1528773c4d2f5abf9.JPG ae8d37a31f4f12937d8d6885f09cefef https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F502a26d806a6426eb62a58555a9abfab.mp4 ef746618043499209119789934947ebb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edward Wallace Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: So, I wanted to ask you, going back a little bit, I wanted to ask you about education. You’d mentioned the schools you went to, but I wanted to ask, how did segregation or racism affect your education? Edward Wallace: It wasn’t bad by the time I came along, you know? Pretty much blended in with the class. Wasn’t like my sisters’ or something like that. Franklin: Were they older? Wallace: Yeah. Franklin: How did it affect them? Wallace: Well, the one you were going to talk to, I guess they got called names all the time. So, I said, well, what about the two older ones? The brothers? And she goes, oh, they loved those guys, because they played sports. You know? They go, but us girls, man, nobody would date us or ask us out or—you know? They go, forget about prom. I think my oldest sister went to prom, and I remember the picture of her. But I think that—yeah, I think his family lived in Richland, too, but I can’t remember, they didn’t live here very long. But as far as me, I was just always shy anyway. I grew up pretty much they had to walk up to me and tell me where we were going and I’d show up. [LAUGHTER] Because I was concentrating on, after school I was usually either picking up my brother or sister—my little brother and my sister—or I was going to go practice with somebody or something else. I remember this one girl asked me, are you going to the football game Friday night? And I’m like, well, I really hadn’t planned on it. But I’d been saying hi to her ever since junior high and smiling at her. It wasn’t until, like, two hours later after school, I’m thinking, what the hell is wrong with you? She was basically asking you if you were going to be at the game, so you know. So I go to the game and I know exactly where she sits because I’d been there before and her and her buddies sit in one spot. So I walked by there looking for her and she’s not there. I’m like, oh, man, that’s too bad. Didn’t see her after that, except around school. And she didn’t talk to me after that or nothing, so I said, oh well. Franklin: Who were some of the people that influenced you as a child? Wallace: You mean, just people? Franklin: Yeah. Like people who were important in your life. Family members, friends, teachers. Wallace: [LAUGHTER] Well, that’s a funny question. Probably my parents. Franklin: How so? Wallace: My brother that’s two years older than me. Because he had an opinion about everything pretty much. I was kind of like, oh, okay, that makes sense, you know, even though it didn’t. But probably more them than anyone else. Because I didn’t go out much, like I said. I was—for me to actually go out and just hang out with people and stuff like that, it was not very often. I was pretty boring guy. Franklin: Oh, come on now. Wallace: No, I was. And it wasn’t until I got to know somebody a little bit that I would talk with them. Franklin: Yeah. Wallace: I remember in high school, a couple of girls walk up to me and go, how come you’re not on the basketball team? And I go, because I don’t like being yelled at. They go, I’d think you’d want to be popular. And I go, I don’t. And they’re like--they gave me this look like they couldn’t believe it. Anyway. As far as teachers go, I don’t think I paid enough attention to any of them to really—[LAUGHTER] I think, elementary school I remember three teachers’ names, and junior high maybe two. High school, you’d think you’d remember most of your teachers’ names; I only remember a couple. So, I know elementary school, I remember Mrs. Hutchison, which was my kindergarten teacher. And then I think Mrs. Graham was my second grade teacher? Then Mr. Lane. Mr. Lane, he’s the one who gave me hacks for not bring my book to school. So I remember him. He gave us—I was a patrol kid, one of the patrol boys. And we were folding the flag one time, and one of the kids dropped one corner. Before it touched the ground, I grabbed it and pulled it back up and we finished folding. And the next day, we got hacks because someone said that it hit the ground. You can’t let the flag hit the ground. So we got hacks for that. Of course, it didn’t hurt. I remember the other kid walking out of there crying. And they go, god, Wallace, how come you’re not crying? And I go, well if you ever got a spanking from my dad, you’d know why. Because when he spanks you, he spanks you. I mean, you jumped and as soon as your feet hit the ground, he got you again. But you know, it wasn’t like he beat you up or anything, he just, hitting you with a stick or a belt or whatever. So we weren’t brutalized or anything. Franklin: Did you have any other—did you have any role models in the community or anything? Or anyone that when you were coming up, anyone you kind of looked up to? Wallace: Nah. [LAUGHTER] I really don’t—I don’t know if I’m just a negative person or not, but I really don’t remember—I probably looked up to Mr. Piggy, because he had a pretty calm demeanor, and he was kid of like me in a lot of ways. Franklin: Who was this? Wallace: His name was Mr. Piggy. Franklin: Oh, one of the families. Wallace: Yeah, yeah. His name was Robert Piggy. He worked out there as a coal handler. But we kind of had the same demeanor, in a way. He was a little more outgoing, but he cracked me up. And he always drove a Volkswagen bug, and he had a hat kind of like yours on all the time, different hats. But everything he did was like on the money. Franklin: What were some of the—what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time there? Wallace: During my time? Franklin: Yeah. Wallace: I would say, during my time there, the fact that I got fired because of a racial thing. That kind of did a couple things to me. First, I realized that—well, see, he wrote me up, first thing was for sleeping on the job, okay? It didn’t matter how long I slept during the day when I could get sleep, when I got to work, got changed for graveyard shift—only for graveyard shift—that first two hours, I could barely stay awake. Matter of fact, I started smoking just to stay awake. That’s how I started smoking, was just to stay awake, and even that didn’t help. I’d put it out, and—chh—be gone. But after that first two hours, I was good for the rest of the night. So, I used to get up and go walk around just to stay awake. And as soon as I went back and sat down—pff—gone. But he wrote me up for sleeping on the job. But not because I was falling asleep in front of everybody. And believe it or not, that first two hours is when he made his rounds. But there was a guy that came back from vacation, and he would go into the break room and go to sleep. So when he got back, he told me, Ed, I want you to be with this guy. You’re not asking enough questions, you’re not really learning the things we want you to. So I want you to hang around with this guy. Okay? Now, before this guy got back, we had some kind of birthday party and the chief was back in the lunchroom, and the alarm went off, saying boiler pressure was going up too high. So I went back and told him. And I said, hey, the boiler pressure’s going up and the alarm’s going off. And he said, yeah, go ahead and acknowledge it and I’ll be out there in a minute. So I acknowledged it, and it’s still going up. So I go back, and I tell him again, and he goes, yeah, just go ahead and acknowledge it. He goes, what’s it up to? And I told him. He goes, yeah, just go ahead and acknowledge it. So, yeah, I’d read the whole manual, how to run this thing, right? So, third time, I go up there and acknowledge it and I turn the water flow down. Because, you know, it was getting a couple of ticks away from going into the red. He comes back, probably 15 minutes later. And he goes, man, that pressure’s just about where I like to keep it. And I go, yeah. He goes, I thought you said the alarm was going off. I said, it was, so I just cut it back a couple notches. He goes, well, how’d you know to do that? And I go, well, there’s no adjustment on the flames, there’s no adjustment on how much oil you put through it, which creates the flame, of course. I go, you can’t adjust how much flame you’ve got, so the only thing I could figure was you had to turn the water down and I believe, if I remember right, that’s what it said in the manual anyway. The pressure gets high, you cut back the water flow. And he was like, damn. You should be a chief. [LAUGHTER] He goes, most of these guys wouldn’t know what to do. And I go, I’ve always tinkered with stuff, you know. Anyways, so for the boss coming in and telling me, yeah, you’re not learning anything that we want you to learn, so he puts me with this guy. And so that guy goes, well, after we did our rounds, he goes, I’m going to go in and take a nap. And I go, well, I’m going to try and stay awake, so I’m going to hang out here and talk to the guys. I’ll probably fall asleep anyway, but—and he goes, well, nope—his name was Freymeyer, my boss. He says, Freymeyer said to stay with you, stay with me. He goes, so, you’re going to stay here with me. And I go, oh, okay! So they had some magazines, so I see one on cars, I pick it up and start reading it. And next thing I know they’re like, busting the door open. And they’re like, oh, you guys are in here sleeping. And I’m like, what’s the deal? This guy does this every night, you know? Well, I’m going to have to write you up. Well, I didn’t know he wrote the other guy up, too. I guess he decided he just didn’t like him. So, I found out later he wrote him up too. He never fired him, but he did write him up. So the next thing I got wrote up for was coming in late. I come in one night within five minutes. My boss is standing out there with his boss, the operations manager. As soon as—I’m looking right at him, I recognize him from the parking lot. And as soon as I come through the gate, they kind of turn away and start pointing at other stuff. And I’m like, I know that guy’s out here just for me. I’ve never seen those two stand and have a conversation. So sure enough, a week later, I got wrote up for being late. Now, the next time, I’m waiting for—I’m unloading—they brought the oil in in trucks, tanker trucks. So I’m waiting for another shipment, and I guess we’re really low because there was going to be like three of them that night. So I’d had the job before, and I knew the sign said, stay at least 20 feet—or no smoking within 20 feet. So, I’m not only 20 feet from the place; I’m like down here where you load the truck and start the pump to pump the oil over. So I know I’m at least 50 feet away, right? And I’m just kind of walking back and forth. But I’m not walking towards the tank, I’m just going back and forth vertically the other way. Between the river and the road. Him and his buddy pulls up, his little fat buddy, Rich. He pulls up and they go, hey, Wallace, what are you doing? And I go, I’m waiting for the next truck to come in. Well, I’d noticed when I got there, the tanks had been painted, and there was no signs up. But I already knew I had to be at least 20 feet away. So I’m 50 feet away. And they go, well, you’re not supposed to smoke within 20 feet of those tanks. And I go, I’m not smoking within 20 feet of them. I go, this is at least 50. And he goes, nah, you’re within 20. So he writes me up for that. So a few weeks later, I’m on vacation, I get a phone call from HR. They say, well, you’ve been released from work. And I’m like, for what? They go, well, you’ve been written up three times. So I go, well, it’s nice you called me while I’m vacation, you know? I’d taken the week off, and they called me like on the second day. So I’m like, it would’ve been nicer to do this in person, don’t you think? And they just hung up the phone, right? So, they called me back a few hours later and told me where to turn my badge in at and everything. So I went and turned my badge in. Walked away, thinking, wow, what assholes. I’m going to sue them. So, I got this lawyer up in Seattle. Because I know all the lawyers around here were bought off a long time ago. I was pretty much told that by one of the union reps. And I had a consult with him. He said, yeah, he goes, let me get the records and everything and then you can come back up and we’ll talk about it. So I walk in, and he goes, well, Ed, he goes, I would really like to represent you, but it’s not going to do any good. And I go, why not? He goes, well, you signed every one of those. Which meant that you’ve seen it and you acknowledged it. Even though you made the note on there that you don’t agree with it, just the fact that you signed it is enough. He goes, but that’s not all. He goes, and then there’s this. And he reaches over and he gets this thing that’s this thick. And I go, what the heck is that? And he goes, well, that’s all the other things about your behavior and everything. And I’m like, what?! He goes, oh, yeah, this guy spent some time on this. There’s notes in there from people you probably don’t even know. And I go, how do you know that? He goes, well, because where they work. They work in town. You worked out at the Site. And they’ve got comments about your behavior in there. And I go, oh. I’m like, I guess the joke’s on me. This guy’s really got his act together as far as getting rid of someone. So, I said, well. Wasn’t about two days later this guy calls me up and goes, Ed, I’m going to start up a band. I need another guitar player. And I said, hmm! Sounds like fun. Franklin: Right, that’s when you started the band? Wallace: So that’s when I started playing. Franklin: So, I’ve got one question left and hopefully it won’t take too long. Wallace: Okay. Franklin: My favorite question to ask. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Wallace: What would I like future generations to know? Well, first of all, the government is great. And it basically does what it’s supposed to do, for the most part. But there are things that they don’t tell you, and there’s things that can harm you that they don’t tell you about. I’ll give you a for instance. When I hired on as a janitor, a guy that was showing me around said, I’m going to show you two places you never want to go. He took me down to C Plant. He goes, okay, that’s a place you never want to get a job at, because once you go in there, you can never get out. He said, you see that place across the street? And I go, yeah. He goes, I don’t know for sure, but you need a higher clearance to even walk up to that building. He goes, and I’ve been told that they’re making these lenses for being able to see from outer space back to here. But that’s just what I heard; I don’t know anything about it. He goes, and neither do you. But stay away from that building. No matter what. He goes, I don’t care if your truck breaks down, you go someplace else and make a phone call. Do not go near that building. Okay? Years later, I come back and we’ve been in the—my group of 35 had been in the building working for about two years, and the training was right there in the facility. Well, they moved training out to that building. So we spend about five, six years going to that building for training, take our tests and our recertifications and everything. And then all of a sudden, that building is shut down and the training is back in the building, the main facility, and then they put up a trailer at the end of the parking lot. That’s the new training department. Okay, so another five years goes by. You’re like, you’re looking at this building going, I wonder why they shut that thing down. No one ever tells you anything. So five years later, you’re in this class and it’s about beryllium. And then they tell you, well, these are beryllium facilities and if you’ve worked in any of these facilities, you need to be on the list to be checked for beryllium sensitivity. Then they tell you how beryllium builds up in your lungs and how your body attacks it. But it can’t do anything, and once it happens and you start having a reaction to it, you need to go in every now and then to have your lungs cleaned out just so they can function. And you’re on oxygen. These are the buildings. And guess which one one of them was? The one we’d been going to training for five years that they—I mean, they didn’t leave part of it open; they closed the whole building up and sealed it up. Everybody else is like, laughing and joking. And I’m like, pissed. So I’m like, I asked the teacher, I go, why’d you wait so long to tell us what was going on with that? Because we’d started hearing about the beryllium tests and stuff. They were testing our tools and we had beryllium tools that we used, they called them non-sparking tools that were made of beryllium. We used them for opening cans and stuff that might have gases in it. So I’m sitting there, and I’m just getting pissed off. I’m like, well, you mean in the building that we spent five years doing training in is filled with beryllium? And we’re just now hearing about it? That’s the reason they closed it off? And now you’re telling us what beryllium will do to you? And he goes, well, you know, the truth is, people used to not live that long. People used to live to only like barely past their 60s. So most of the stuff, they figured it would never affect you. But now we got guys living into their 80s who are coming down with this beryllium problem. I go, so you’re taking these 80-year-old guys and washing their lungs out? I’m like, you got to be kidding me. Franklin: Wow. Wallace: So you know, I used to always wear my coveralls. And when all the new kids came in, they would run around the place in their regular street clothes. And I told them, I said—they’d always ask me, Ed, how come you wear your coveralls all the time? And I go, well, number one, when I get hot I sweat a little bit. So I might as well just take a shower, put on my clothes that I wore in this morning, and go home with it. I go, plus, when they say places are clean, like where we’re at now, I go, if you want to take that home, you got to take it in to the HPT office, which is radiation protection, they have to go through it, make sure it’s thoroughly clean before they’ll release it so you can take it home. I go, now you’re sitting in the lunchroom. So you don’t know what you’re picking up along the way when you go to do any job. I go, so I’m not going to sit here in my street clothes and wear my street clothes home not knowing what’s on them. They said, oh man, get out of here. I go, okay. I go, you keep wearing your street clothes. I go, but one day when you slip out of here with something on you and the detectors don’t pick it up outside, and you get home and you’ve crapped your wife up and your kids and your whole house has to be cleaned, I go, don’t say I didn’t warn you. Franklin: Well, Ed, I don’t want to keep you too much longer. Wallace: Okay. Franklin: But thank you. Thank you for the interview. It was a pleasure. Wallace: All right. Franklin: Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming down today. Wallace: Ah, no problem. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Wallace Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) School integration Description An account of the resource An interview with Edward Wallace conducted as park of a National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/10/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2503d544b8a14f97e9770f99ea4ae31e.jpg 690baf02cd982d16be454fa61515735b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fada0dbf6496cc12da553f06e46e92b9e.mp4 59164a7708c88cbb1d22ef43bc311024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edwin Cheyney Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Cheyney_Ed Laura Arata: Plus, if you make him mad, he's got a cane now he can smack you with. Ed Cheyney: Well I got one I’m not doing with. Arata: Nice. Man: I guess it just-- Arata: That would be our first on camera cane dueling. Cheyney: Right. [LAUGHTER] Man: Okay, whenever you're ready. Arata: Okay, we’re ready to go. All right. So if we could start out by having you say your name, and then spell it for us? Cheyney: Sure. My name is Edwin Cheyney. C-H-E-Y-N-E-Y. It's also been pronounced chee-nee, with the extra Y in it. I was corrected many years ago that you're pronouncing it wrong. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Really? So you learned about it, too? Cheyney: I said, I didn't care, as long as it didn't get any worse. Arata: Fair enough. My name's Laura Arata. Today is November 12, 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start off by just having you tell me a little bit about when you came to Hanford, and what that first experience of coming to Hanford was like, and why you initially came here. Cheyney: Okay, well, first of all, at that time, I was going to Spokane Technical and Vocational School, which is now Spokane Community College. And basically, the only way you could get out of class time is to go interview. Well, I was on—it’s three and a half years, and so, I was on the, actually, the last few months of my course. And this guy says, hey, let's get a carpool going, and go down to Hanford. Well, where's that? And he says, well, they're looking for employees. I think it was 13 at that time, for a special program with General Electric. So we get down there, and the first thing, and we got here early, at seven o'clock promptly. We were all escorted back into a room that had separate booths, and we were given time tests from seven o'clock till 12 noon. We were tested on about every kind of conceivable test that I could imagine, but it all related to my field of electronics and instrumentation. So anyway, it was about two weeks later. The ones that were in the carpool with me said they already got their rejection notice. And my teacher--I wasn't one of his favorite ones--and he just says, came to me, and says, well, you'll get yours. And I said, well, I'm sure I will. A month later, I get a call from my grandmother. I was living in Spokane and taking care of two of her apartment houses. And she says, you've got a registered letter. So I went to my teacher, and I said, I need to take my grandmother to the bank. He said, I've never heard of that one before. [LAUGHTER] So he let me go, and I got there, and I had a registered letter from General Electric. I really got excited. And it says, offered me a job. And I went back to the school. I plopped it down to the teacher, and says, well, there, I got my letter. He says, so what? And just turned his head. So, well, that's fine. At least I got proof. And I went to my two other instructors from previous years. They stopped everything. He said, look it. He's the only one out of the whole school's that's been offered a job down in Hanford. I still didn't know what I was getting into. [LAUGHTER] But I figured it was worth it. And we had to agree to the fact to go to three and half years more to CBC to special programs that GE selected. And that was no problem either. And then we worked only an eight hour shift, except on weekends, we could work overtime if that case came up. So basically, that's how I got in the front door. And it's sort of interesting that when I first came down here, my mother wanted to make sure that I got in a decent environment because I'd never cooked or anything. And so, GE, they'd recommended the best place where most go is the Statler Hotel. Well, I thought, well, let's go there. Well, we went in there, and my mother, of course, with me. When she saw the three gals there wearing mini-skirts and the whole thing, she almost ripped my arm off, says this isn't the place for you. I didn't see any problem with it, but she immediately took me up to the parish house, and says, is there somewhere decent that I could live? And she introduced us to this woman that was very motherly, very heavy set, very good cook. And said she'd board and room me. Well, of course, I got out on the project. There was lots and lots of indoctrinations that this is classified work, and you're not to discuss anything whatsoever. And the home then I was staying in, her husband was one of the managers out at D Reactor. And so first thing, he asked me, he says, what do you do out there? I says, I just work out there. He says, I know you can't describe anything, but he says, you can at least say your title. You're not getting yourself in trouble with that. I says, well, are you sure? He says, I wouldn't put you on the spot. And I says, I'm an instrument and control technician. And so, he didn't push me any further. And the one thing, before I left the neighborhood of Spokane, the FBI was checking up on me. And I had neighbors say, what kind of trouble are you in anyway? And I says, what do you mean trouble? And they says, the FBI was out checking on you. And I go, that's great. He says, what's great about it? I says, I think they're interested in me. [LAUGHTER] So that's basically how I got in the front door. And I started in the 300 Area, basically the canning lines. And with GE, you were only in a spot roughly three months to six months, and they rotated you because they wanted you to get the full feel of the different expectations that they had of you, and the way you could handle your so-called position, as far as instrument control calibration of all kinds of instrumentation, which, to me, I found really exciting because it was a new challenge. There was never, seemed like there was never a day that it wasn't something different. And I like that. And the challenges were quite different. And riding that bus for a nickel a day. You couldn't afford to drive anywhere. The only thing is, those buses didn't have air conditioning or anything. And when it started, when they moved me to the K Reactor--first it was B, C Reactors. When you had 100 degree weather, it was no fun after a shift, getting on the bus about 4 o'clock. It's good and hot and everything. About all you could do is just sit there and bear it. I usually just closed my eyes, and just figured, well, I'll get home pretty quick. And I just figured, well, it's good for a common cause. Also at that time, the salary was real good for someone that was just out of a tech school. My dad had a master's degree, was teaching five solid subjects, and the superintendent of schools at Hogan, Montana. And the first year, because I was living with the landlady's, their home, she also made use of me, and took me to grocery stores to help her carry stuff. And she took me to Zale’s and talked me into buying a men's diamond ring, which that's the last thing in the world I was really interested in, but I got talked into it. Well, I go up to see my dad, and he sees that. And he says, is that real? And I says, of course, it's real. But I says, it was stupid that I bought it. And I took it off, and said, you can have it. And he said, well, what kind of money are you making? At that point in time, I had made a little over $2,500 more than he'd made. And that really changed his whole attitude about tech school because when I graduated from school, I had to be in his classes, and I took lots of insults. And when he asked me when I graduated, what are you going to do? I says, I'm not sure yet. And then, when I told him I was going to tech school, he says, you just will be a grease monkey. Well, that changed his whole attitude, that maybe--He says, I just can't see why and how they can pay you that kind of money. I says, Dad, they pay you for what you can do with your hands, too. And from then on, he had a whole different feel about it. So that's getting off of what I was doing in Hanford. But going to the different sites, like I said, the challenges were always different. And I think the thing that really impressed me the most is the feeling of the power and energy that was going on. And especially when I was given the tour to go, first, up to the water treatment plant. That was massive enough. I was told could easily take care of the whole city of Los Angeles. And they showed me a wet well, and in it was all these lights with no insulation or anything. And they're on. I says, how come they don't short out? He says, in pure water, there's no conduction. And the mass of water that was going down through the pumps, and through the reactor core itself, the ground just vibrated. I'd say it was at least a good two city blocks, if not longer. You just feel the rumbling. And it's just a massive power. And you go in the reactor area, you just hear all this rushed water. Another thing that was impressive, you look outdoors at this big million gallon tanks of boiling water coming right off the reactor. It could be 100 degrees outdoors, and it had a 200 foot plume at least. And it really made me think, especially in later years when you start realizing what all is going on. It was a graphite core reactor, the same kind of reactor that Chernobyl had. They were foolish in what they were doing. They weren't using nuclear engineers or physicists, and doing all kinds of dangerous experiments. But they reminded me that when I went in to watch, and a lot of times we referred to it, we're controlling a nuclear bomb. And when the operations, especially at operations, they start pulling rods, waiting for things to go critical, it got real exciting, real quiet. And they had two to three guys watching everything, all the instrumentation to see when things were starting to go critical. And it just really amazed me how smart they were, and how careful they were in their operations. And at the same token, it made you well aware that we're really controlling something really massive. And later, roughly, I'd say about every six months or so, they rotated you. They moved me to the K Reactors. Now those were the two world's largest producing plutonium reactors. And that was even more exciting. And of course, a whole lot bigger, and a whole lot more things going on. And eventually, I don't know if it was because of my interest, or my attitude or what, they gave me the opportunity to go into the irradiation testing group, which was a whole lot more involvement. And that was going into, I won't go into a whole lot of detail. They were putting, I'll say samples, into the core of the reactor during operation for different tests for Atomic International, NASA, and there was a few others. But they had a lot of instrumentation, monitoring, and analyzing what's going on. Of course, because being rotated around, actually, what happened then was I just became journeyman, and General Electric announced that they're phasing out. That was a real scary thing for the simple fact they were laying off thousands of people, not hundreds. And being that I was on their special training program, they had an agreement with the union, only take a certain percentage of us to lay off. And go off, like, they lay off 2,000 workers, they might take three or four of us. But when it got down to the last two weeks at General Electric, I was down into the last group. Now when they put me on that status, then they immediately transferred me out of the K Reactors down to the canning lines. And that's where they actually had, oh, what do I want to say, molten metal for sealing the canisters for the fuel for the reactor. And so, when you knew when you were down there that you were on your way out--Well, on Friday, the last Friday of the second week of GE, I got my lay-off notice. Well, this probably about does it, but I put in my name. I thought, well, I want to stay nuclear. I put in my name for the nuclear bomb testing down in Nevada. I immediately got results back. We'd like to hire you, and the only thing is, they're offering me basically the same salary, but I had to move myself. And I thought, well, to heck with that. The following Monday, so I got a notice on Friday, the following Monday, my supervisor comes to me, and he says, how would you like to work for Douglas United Nuclear? I says, I'd love to work for Douglas United Nuclear. He says, well, you'd be doing the same thing you're doing. And so, tear up your lay-off notice. So I stayed with Douglas United Nuclear. And not to go into a whole lot of details of the same thing, it wasn't long they announced shutting down more reactors. The handwriting was on the wall. You aren't going to be here very long. And so, I put my name in with Battelle Northwest, and I put my name with KEPR TV station, because at school I had earned a commercial FCC license, so I could go that way. I thought, all right. I'll get out of government. I'll go into this. Well, it was on a Thursday night. I got called by both Battelle and by KEPR. And I said, well, I wanted to—to Battelle, I told them I wanted to just check into this one job first. Well, it turned out real quick that that didn't have anywhere near what to offer that Battelle. So I went to Battelle. It was through Battelle, then, I got into a whole lot more avenues of the nuclear field. And they moved me everywhere where they felt that they wanted me or needed me. I worked--first, they were going to move me out in the areas, or that's what they promised me, and the first day on the job, they put me in the 300 Area again in the fabrications department. Well, Battelle's in everything. And the next thing, I was assigned on an engineer. He basically gave you a schematic, or a drawing, of what he wanted, and you had to from there, get everything you need, put it together, wire it up, test it, and turn it over to the engineer. Well, that was really exciting because it was a whole different challenge, including making your own printed circuit boards, which I'd never done. Basically, it's a photographic process, and I've always been interested in that. And so, it wasn't long—they wanted, the engineering department then wanted me, and moved me down to the sand castle. And of course though, when they have a contract that ends, so does the job. But in the meantime, they had the computer lab at the sand castle for the FFTF mock up. And I guess, my understanding was the first time they ever had analog digital computers working together to simulate FFTF. That went great until Governor Dixy Lee Ray came down and removed that job, that responsibility from Battelle. Well, I got moved out into the 300 Area again, and different labs, and HTLTR, PRTR, and all the different ones. But again, every one of them was exciting. Every one was a different challenge. Well, in the meantime, there's a gentleman that got hurt at home. And he worked out at the 200 Areas, and that was top secret work. And so that required having more checks on me. And then when you were approved, you had a blue tag on your badge. The only thing that I really feel comfortable disclosing was the fact that, again, it was really exciting. The big thing was that they assigned you to specific cells only. And no one had the same cells, and no one was-- basically, I was told because this way, you'll never try to put things together. You just do your job, and mind your own business. And that's fine with me. And then, as soon as this gentleman was able to come back to work, then I was put on with, they asked me if I'd like to work at the weather station. That's out at the 200 Areas also. That, I was to work on the telemetry stations. I thought that's really neat because it had weather stations at a 65 mile radius that I traveled every day, checking stations, and setting them up for monitoring radiation, temperature, wind speed, and et cetera. And the only thing is, it was a great adventure, watching, or being at the different areas. And that's when it came to my light, I didn't realize that during the time I was out in the 100 Areas, I don't know when because I never saw it, that they had Nike missile sites. And where that refreshed my memory is when I was out a K Areas one night, on graveyard shift, and I was with a gentleman. And we were outside, and we had just got through with, they had stack flow monitors to see what kind of effluents are going through, to make sure we're staying within limits. And he says, you know, it was really sort of funny. One night, he wouldn't say who, and I can see why, inflated a big air balloon, a weather balloon, and tied a flashlight to it, and set it up. Well, after it went up so far, next thing, a big—I think two military jets came flying over to see what the heck that was flying in the air. So some people had ways of—no one wanted to be identified on that one because they did have missile sites. I found that one out on my weather stations out at the Wahluke Slopes, but they pretty well destroyed everything. And I thought this was really, really, was pretty well covered and protected. Which thank God it was, but we weren't aware of that stuff. So it was full of excitement. And I never knew what I was going to be stuck with the next day. The only thing is, like with Battelle, and that's while I was doing the weather stations, I was watching--one of the sites I had was right out on the Hanford site, and it was right out there where they were starting up Whoops, and they were digging this massive, massive hole in the ground. And we had to set up a weather station there. And so I got really interested in that, and basically, I thought, you know, I've always wanted to see something like this being built from the ground up. So I put my name in there, and three months later I was hired in, and spent the last 27 and a half years there. But that's basically in a nutshell what I was involved with. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Sounds like you were involved in a lot of different jobs, and I wonder--you mentioned that you worked at B, C, and K Reactors. So I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about what maybe some of your different jobs there were. Whatever you're comfortable with. Cheyney: Oh, sure. Well, especially in the B, C Reactor Areas, like I say, while I was going to school, you weren't allowed any overtime. But on weekends, you were. Another interesting thing when you're back home, if they wanted you, like, for a reactor goes down, they call you up, you say yes, they send a person out in a car. They pick you up, and take you out there, and they also bring you back home. Some of those jobs, I actually was out at the plant for two days at a time. But one of them, like in the B, C Reactor, especially now that we can go visit and everything, it brought back the recollection of the reactor had gone down, and they were doing repair of thermocouples. That's temperature measurement. And you had to go to the rear face of that reactor in a wetsuit, and, of course, PCs under that, and go in there, and go behind where those tubes are, pull out this little two conductor wire, and take and cut it, splice it, and basically bond it together, and then solder it there. And here you've got water's dripping from 100 feet up. You're trying to heat this thing up enough to make it bond. And then call the control. Now are they getting an indication? And then, of course, you'd have to re-insert it back down into the well it was in. That was one of the things I'll never forget because it was so dark back there and everything. You did not want to be claustrophobic. You could easily touch the back of the wall with your back, and you'd have the tubes in front of you. Of course, the interesting thing there is before anyone ever goes in there after a shutdown, they discharge all those tubes down into 15 feet of water, and you see all this blue going down there below you. That never bothered me either, other than thank God, it's down 15 feet under water. Well, in the K Reactors--the B Reactor, I just had a lot of general routines of, like in the powerhouse, there's all kinds of instrumentation for controlling those big boilers. Of course, that was coal fired. And the water treatment facilities, measuring the pH of the water, and the chemistry that goes into it. And then K Reactors, I got to go in. Now they were putting in the high speed scanning system for measuring temperature. And instead of using thermocouples, they used RTDs. And they were going into, I think it was about the second year I was at K Reactors, that again, they shut down to replace all those. Well, again, I get called, I come out there. It's at midnight. I'm well over 100 feet up in the air running these thermal bulbs down through in between the tubes while there's another guy riding the elevator down to the point of what tube it was to be installed into. And it was sort of relaxing up there. It was interesting, but it just seemed like forever. Another incident—of course, as soon as you finish your college requirements that they put on, I was immediately put on D shift. And it just--I didn't like shift because it was one day a week, swings, days, and graveyards on a continuous cycle. I was with the technician this one day. We were up in full operation at this point in time, but they were wanting to check—they were having problems. And so, he and I were assigned to go into the control room. They had—I won't give the exact number; I'll say there was well over 3,000 pressure gauges called panel gauges. They're monitoring the pressure of the water of the tube itself, and that's 3,000 plus. And this panel, you're in the control room, you hear all this click, click, click, click. And they're all moving. If anything, if any one of them goes over pressure or under pressure, immediately, it dumps that whole complete plant. Everything comes through a massive—you hear lots of equipment slamming shut, and the control rods drop. Well, anyway, I guess I was still considered a trainee at that time. We had to change out one of those little pressure gauges. Behind the panel, it's all full of tubing and wiring. They're all in series with each other, so that means if any one's interrupted, it dumps everything. So to get around that, to replace a gauge, you had to take, you had jumpers. So you put a jumper, and you jumper off that gauge. And then when you're all ready to try to dismantle, and pull it out and put another one, you pull the jumpers out of it. Well, the gentleman that was taking me through this, showing me and telling me how careful, as soon as he pulled the one jumper, boom. The plant went down. [LAUGHTER] Oh no. I don't know what color I turned, but I know that he says, oh no. He went out, he says, we did it, we did it. They says, hold on. They had to check it. And it turned out it was something else, but it happened at the same time that we pulled that jumper. So there was times that it made you plenty nervous because you don't make anyone happy if you dump the plant. You don't get fired, but the embarrassment of it—you try to take a lot more pride in it than that. And so, that's basically, sort of in a nutshell the B, C Reactors. It's really interesting to go out there and look at it now. I certainly encourage anyone that has the opportunity. It brings back a lot of memories. The biggest thing I remember is you go in the control room there, the first one that they let off. You go in the control room there, it looks like a little dinky space. It didn't seem that dinky to me then. But if you go into the K Reactors, it looks like a gymnasium compared to that, as far as the size of the control room and the equipment that was there. So a lot to compare it with, but the things that just always impressed me was you could feel from the tremor of the grounds and everything, that there was massive power. And it had to be to generate that much heat, and have that much steam coming out of those millions of gallons—I don't know exactly what. The only thing that disturbed me, and I questioned it at the time, riding the bus, going past the 200 East Area, a lot of times, the winds would bring down that brownish plume. And it'd come right in the bus, and your nose would burn. And I'd say, isn't that bad for you? Why is it on a big stack, and it's coming down here? Oh, nothing to worry about. Well, thank God, I don't think I ever got anything from it. There was a lot of things that went on that you could question, but you probably wouldn't get much for an answer. In fact, when I—I get bounced around on things—when I was doing the weather system for them, in the winter time, we were given snowmobiles because we did Rattlesnake Mountain, and the whole bit. And so they had their own trailer with the snowmobiles. Well, I had to go into the Two West Area, and immediately, this one guard, he must have been new. He says, pull over there, and don't go anywhere. Well, this is new. And he comes up, he says, sir, I hate to tell you this, but you can't be bringing your recreational vehicles in here. I said, sir, would you mind reading what's on those snowmobiles, and read what's on the trailer? It says property of the Atomic Energy Commission. He looks at it. He thought it was crazy. He says, well, I'm sorry. [LAUGHTER] So you're all the time being tested. But in general, I always considered it probably one of the greatest experiences. I'm really thankful to the good Lord that I worked 44 and a half years. I'm not trying to brag, but I was never unemployed. They kept me plenty busy. Arata: It sounds like it. It sounds like you had many different jobs. Cheyney: Well, with instrumentation and monitoring everything under the sun, temperature, pressure, level, et cetera. Even one, that reminded me—not to go on and on and on—but in the 300 Area, while I was down there, they sent me to the so-called bursting facilities. And I thought, now what the heck's that? Well, we'll find out. And I go there, and they had these different cells, and they had high pressure systems. And they take different materials of piping, and they hook up all these apparatuses on both ends. And they put it in a cell, and put on all kinds of monitoring equipment to test pressure, temperature, et cetera. And what they do, when they get ready to test, you get out of there, you go back in the control room, and they run up until that pipe virtually breaks open. And again, for studies. But they had a lot of studies going on before they ever used a lot of material. So it was, like I say, always exciting. I enjoyed it, but you never knew what you were going to be assigned with. And it seemed like they didn't mind sending me around. Arata: Sounds like it. I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit about starting in the '60s, and then having this great 44-year career unhampered. Certainly, the technology changed a great deal in that time. Could you talk a little bit about what sorts of technology changes you encountered working there? Cheyney: Well, sure. It's sort of interesting. When they first put me out in the 300 Area, of course, I was assigned with different technicians almost every day. And anyway, this one technician—and you've could sense when right off the bat, well, you're a fresh one from out of school, so you probably don't know much or anything. And I was given this elderly gentleman, and he takes me to his own little shop area he had. As a matter of fact, it happened to be where the bursting facilities was, and he says, what do you know about recorders? I says, well, I was thinking of electronic recorders, a magnetic tape type recorder. I says, well, if you're talking about magnetic tape recorders, I says, I think I know quite a bit about them. What do you got? He says, well, what do you know about recorders? What do you know about L&N recorder? And I says, not a thing! Can you show me what you're talking about? He brings out this great, big, heavy, old chunk of iron. It's an L&N recorder. It has a galvanometer movement in it. I knew what that was. But I thought, what do you with that piece of junk? I'd use it for a boat anchor. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't say that because I knew it would disrupt him a lot. He says, do you know how to calibrate—or wind your own resistors for the bridge that it requires for it? I says, no. You give me a formula, and I'll work it out. He said, great. So he gives me what values he wanted. Okay. So then he hands me this spool and this wire. He says, all right, make your own resistor. I said, what is this? [LAUGHTER] He says, you've got to make your own resistor. So I kept going down on wire until I got exactly the resistance, cut it off, then I had to treat it and the whole thing. I just followed along with him. And I make these several spools of resistors, and put it in. And then he had me taking, apply a signal to see where the galvanometer would move, and the whole thing. I thought, now just how antiquated can this get? [LAUGHTER] He didn't like it too well or anything, but I thought, I could learn something from everybody. And it was really interesting because as I got out into the K Reactors, well, now they had all, at this time--that time--they had vacuum tube amplifiers. And yes, they had their own bridge circuits and stuff, but you didn't go winding your own resistors or anything. In fact, it all came from the factory pre-certified and et cetera. And so, I saw a big change there in the counting type equipment, and the measuring of temperature. Things changed tremendously. Now in the pneumatic end, that's air-driven instruments, which I never really was fond of. I liked electronics. It was a lot faster. Air-driven, even though that is very accurate for monitoring pressure, and the whole thing, is very slow. You make a move. You wait. Electronics, it's right there. And that was a big change I've seen. And of course, as they got—especially like that K Reactor—so much more massive and everything, they had to be a lot more sophisticated. And so, I could see one heck of a change. And poor old B Reactor was about as old-fashioned as you could get. But it amazes me how they handled the whole thing from the ground up, and we didn't have any major catastrophe. They did have at K Reactors—and I didn't realize the possible danger I was in—they did have where the core did catch on fire. And at least with the monitoring equipment they had, it was where they could respond fast enough to start changing control rods. But it took them a while to get that out. But at least it wasn't like Chernobyl. Chernobyl, they had no chance. In fact, we had videos of--and I'm jumping clear into--where we were shown videos. The fact that when they cut off all the safety systems, they apparently had no knowledge of how fast, when a chain reaction starts, how fast could it be when it goes critical. Because it totally blew everything up, and that's with a graphite core. And unfortunately, people think that, like Energy Northwest out there, that has water as a moderator. There's no graphite whatsoever, a whole different thing. And graphite does burn. And the sad thing is, understand, I've heard that there wasn't a single person that was around Chernobyl that was trying to save the area that is alive today. At least, thank God, we do have a lot more safety concerns. But I don't know if I've totally answered what you're looking for, between the difference, but it was a massive difference. Of course, then when I went over to Energy Northwest, the equipment, as far as recorders, they didn't even have vacuum tubes. Everything's solid state. Pretty much, the current state of the art, or even making changes to be more current, to the more current methods. So it always gave you a different challenge. But I like the changes. And I learned real quick. No matter who, you learn from everyone. And I know my first supervisor, he was sort of like a dad, and he'd, after about two weeks there, he called me in. And he says, I see that you were really raised strict. I says, why do you say that? He says, you don't let anyone disturb you, but you don't come back with any smart aleck remarks. I says, everyone's got something to offer, good or bad. I says, I'm not here for that. I'm here to learn, and I'm here to carry out what you want me to carry out. It was always exciting. And I have no regrets. In fact, most thought that I would never even quit. I quit when I was 66. I figured, well, maybe I should take time out to enjoy life. And I'm glad that I did. I don't miss it. I never tried to think about retirement, or play it into my mind until, I think it was about--well, the last day, I even went out, worked regular assignments until the last four hours. And then, finally, my boss says, well, come on in. There's no use to go any further. And I thought, well, now I can lay everything down, and walk out that gate, and I won't feel like I'm in a pen. [LAUGHTER] It was a great experience. Arata: It sounds like it. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the K Reactor shut down. And I understand there was some talk of maybe starting it back up, and that ultimately didn't happen. Since you worked there-- Cheyney: Right. Well, I heard mostly about that, of course, when I was away from there. And I thought, it was really, really a disappointment. It was really sad. In fact, I think it was pretty much getting into that process when I was down at Battelle. And they were doing some tests out there, and I got to go with an engineer. He wanted me to go out there and help with some equipment. And going in there, everything's stone cold. Everything's stone quiet. Such a massive structure doing absolutely nothing. I thought, what a waste. And what are they going to do? Like I said, I didn't hear a whole lot about it, but it came and really hit home when I went in there, and they're worried about rodents and everything else. That isn't the reactor that I saw. And the excitement that was behind it has just, all is dead. And going back through some of the corridors, and into one of the areas they were experimenting with, just hardly could see around. They had some test equipment. I didn't question exactly what are they monitoring. I'm sure a lot they're looking for, is there any possible contamination concerns or anything? But speaking of contamination concerns, it's just like when any of those reactors had what they call a rupture. That's where a fuel element breaks open, and the material’s going out into that water stream. And what they do is they immediately divert it to, they had a big open area, a pit area where all that high contaminated water went into. And guess what's out there in the winter time? Ducks are swimming in that hot water. And I thought, I wouldn't eat anything around here. [LAUGHTER] But I think there's quite a bit that substantiates all that. In fact, Battelle's doing a lot of research in animals and stuff, and even the materials that they've, the feces material and everything is, like, up in the 5R range, which you wouldn't even want to be near that. And I thought, they've got a lot to learn out there of studying the habitat around there, but I wouldn't want to eat anything. [LAUGHTER] Again, I'm off on another subject. [LAUGHTER] Arata: That's okay. So overall, I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about any aspects of your work that you found the most challenging, and sort of the most rewarding. Or just overall, how Hanford was as a place to work during the time you were there. Cheyney: Well, during the time I was there, as far as—I was really impressed with General Electric. They always gave me a feeling of a positive attitude. Also, a very strong feeling that you don't talk about your exact work because it's for the security of the country. And at the same token, I think where it became more rewarding and more relaxing to me is actually when I went to work out at, at that time, Whoops. And at that time, seeing all of the things that go into making a plant, you learn to respect things different. When I went to terminate from Battelle, they says, why in the heck do you want to go there? They're never going to ever operate. I says, well, I'm young enough yet. I want to see what I can learn out of it, and if it don't work--They says, if it don't work, come back here, we'll give you a job. I thought, I bet you will. [LAUGHTER] But I think maybe they were sincere, but I found it really rewarding there. I got involved with--and I never dreamt that I would—is working with robots, going into highly radioactive zones to do monitoring, and to observe what's going on, like steam leaks or anything. So you're not putting anyone in any danger. Out of that, I was surprised, I got an award from, I can't think of the name right now, from the company that was behind it. It was back east, and they sent a plaque awarding me that I contributed to something that basically made things safer, that didn't expose man to. And yet, I found it really exciting because I've always been excited about cameras, and this was working with cameras and with remote control of a little robot. And I made quite a few improvements, and so, I considered maybe that was one of the highlights. It was rewarding. I wasn't expecting anything. I just enjoyed that they let me go on it. And I also worked—I wore two hats in the last years at Energy Northwest, in that I volunteered because they couldn't get anyone else that would go there to write procedures. There was five originally that volunteered, and we all five took on the challenge. And inside of a couple months, it was down to two of us. It ended up, it was down—it was basically myself. And the main reason is, is because you're writing the instructions for that technician to go out and perform a function. If that causes anything like dump the plant, or any kind of danger, you go before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and you may be serving time. Well, to protect myself, I always went before engineering, and discussed, and made them put their name on the dotted line with me that, yes, this is right. This is the only way to go about it, or the best way to go about it. And it was rewarding to me from the standpoint that if they needed an extra hand, they'd pull me right off of that, and I was back out on the plant. So I got away from it, just continuing. Like I say, the challenges seemed to never end. And I really, for a while, thought, I don't know, maybe I won't quit. They always teased me that I would be there when they shut the lights out. Well, I'm glad I didn't because getting away from it, as I get older, different medical issues. But I'm still blessed with the fact that I can get around. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Mm-hm. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, that we haven't had a chance to hear you talk about that you'd like to share? Any other humorous incidents? Or just anything that stands out in your mind from that time? Cheyney: Well, it wasn't a humorous incident, but one thing that GE pointed out, well, I guess it was an incident as far as, and of course, it was to teach everybody a lesson, is this one gentleman saw this real neat tool in his eyes. So he decided he'd take it home with him. It turns out it was a contaminated piece of equipment. And so, when they detected that it was missing, all they had to do was they got out their radiation monitors. They had an approximate idea. They could go right to his doorstep. And they went in, and they cut out chunks out of his carpet. Everywhere he'd been in his house, they were cutting out samples. And so I think it was a lesson well learnt. Keep your hands off of it. [LAUGHTER] In a way, I thought it was sort of funny. It's not really funny, though. But taking that kind of, obviously, carelessness, at least it really hit home. It isn't worth it. Arata: All right. So I wanted to ask you, for general purposes, most of my students were born after the Cold War. They don't remember this time. So what would you like, sort of, that generation or future generations to know about working in Hanford, as this very important aspect of America's place in the Cold War, and winning the Cold War? Cheyney: Well, I think the main thing is, the big thing is, I'm just trying to figure out how to put it. You shouldn't be afraid of nuclear. If you really know all the facts behind it, and all of the precautions behind it, it is one heck of a rewarding career. And it is something that I think I'm probably a whole lot healthier, and a whole lot that I know that have never had anything to do with nuclear, and yet, my whole life, basically, has been out there. And it definitely is rewarding in regards to the financial side. Well, I can relate it to my older son, when he was graduating, I says, well, what are you going to do? Because I'd never heard him discuss anything. He says, I'm going to be an instrument tech. I said, where'd you get that idea? [LAUGHTER] And he says, well, I want to do what you did, and I want to make the money you've made. And he went to Perry Tech, and he did real well. And I even, through my supervision, of course, was instrumental, and got him on a few outages out here. But he went on down to the only place where you got a permanent job. But again, instrumentation, the same, similar type of equipment for different purposes down at SCH, where it was making silicon wafers for all these integrated circuits. All the latest technology, it's a Japanese firm. They're very stern, very strict. Well, he had the most seniority and everything there, I think it was 12 and a half years. When it came to lay off and cutbacks, because they're very competitive, he was one of the first ones to let go. Now to try to find work, well, he's been able to get on to outages all throughout the country. So, even though he's had nothing there, right now he's in Raleigh, North Carolina. A month ago, he was down in Florida. And he's getting to see country that I haven't seen, and there's a lot of adventures yet, but he's still dealing with nuclear. It’s definitely, it's nothing to be afraid of; it's something to respect. And I'd say it definitely has a lot of opportunity if a person really wants to make the good money. I know, like I say, it's what you can do with your hands. Of course, you have to use your head too, but there's opportunity that you can really do well. Arata: I want to thank you very much for coming in, and sharing your memories with us. We really appreciate it. Cheyney: Well, I hope I've contributed something that's--I enjoy talking about what I can talk about it. It's left me with memories I'll never forget. And I thank you for the opportunity. Arata: Well, we are very happy to have you. I love your description of standing behind B Reactor, and looking down in those kind of cool, glowing-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:50:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 203 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview D Reactor K Reactor 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor 200 Area 100 Area Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Ray, Dixie Lee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edwin Cheyney Description An account of the resource An interview with Edwin Cheyney conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor FBI General Electric K Reactor Secrecy WOOPS (Washington Public Power Supply System) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4b3b39e87ce2507d604a1502d8a7ab60.jpg 770df6b0e7699c07a4956c77fd36fe8a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F52781766779487f891c66cb12dd10aac.mp4 80f3a4e1bf5e27d53fb0329c79865a7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elaine Davis Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready? Elaine Davis: There. Franklin: Better get that closed. Ready? Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Elaine Davis on September 2, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Elaine Davis about her experiences growing up in Richland. So, the best place to start is at the beginning. So why don’t you tell me where and when you were born? Elaine Davis: I was born September 27, 1948 at Kadlec Hospital. I grew up on 1918 Howell in Richland and I went to school at Jefferson Elementary, Chief Jo Middle—Chief Jo Junior High at that time, and Columbia High School. Franklin: And Columbia later became Richland? Davis: Richland High School. Franklin: Yeah, the gentleman I just interviewed also went to Columbia High School. And so, Elaine, we’ve already talked a bit, and I’ve read your bio here that my intern put together, and so you were born here, but your dad, your family didn’t work at Hanford-proper, right, but they worked for the government here? Davis: My dad, I think, worked for the Manhattan Project. He came in March 1944. And my mother came out in June of 1944, after she finished nursing school. And then my brother was born on the 2nd of August, 1944, and he was the first baby born in Kadlec. They didn’t have bassinets at that time; they put him in a dresser drawer. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How new was Kadlec Hospital at that time? Davis: They had just completed the emergency room and the maternity section. Franklin: Okay. Davis: So my mom was admitted on the 1st, but she didn’t have him until the 2nd of August, 1944. Franklin: So your brother is somewhat of a local celebrity at the time, correct? Davis: Yes, he is, right. He was grand marshal for one of the parades that Richland had, with my mother sitting beside him, and they were the grand marshal. Franklin: I guess he kind of, in some ways he might symbolize—the first birth of the community, right, is something for the community to kind of gather around. Because up until that point, right, there was no one who worked for the Manhattan Project who had any kind of—no one could say, like, oh, I was born in Richland. You know? Davis: Mm-hmm, right. Franklin: Or at least the new Richland that was—is distinct from the— Davis: Because Richland did exist before the Manhattan Project. Franklin: Right, yeah, but most of those people had had to leave and were of a very different—they would’ve had very different lives and memories of Richland than all of the people that would’ve came. Davis: Yes. Franklin: So what did your father do at the Manhattan Project? Davis: He worked—he was one of the—not the first male nurse out on the Project, but one of the first male nurses out on the Project in 1944. Franklin: And— Davis: And— Franklin: Oh, please. Davis: But he didn’t, you know—he didn’t know what was going on. All he knew is he was here as a nurse to help out in any way he could. Franklin: Do you know where he worked in those early days? Davis: He didn’t tell me where he worked. I’m sure it was probably because it was so secretive. Franklin: Right, right. So then he transferred over to Kadlec when it was completed then? Davis: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And what did he do for Kadlec? Davis: He was the administrator for Kadlec. Franklin: Okay. So was he then in charge of like the day-to-day operations? Davis: Yes, he was. Franklin: Okay. And you also mentioned that your mother worked there? Davis: My mother worked from the time I was 13 months old, and she worked until I was in the third grade, when I was about nine. She went to work for Dr. Buren Lee for 17 years and then they started the Richland Clinic. She worked for Dr. Ballmann for 17 years after that. But she continued working until she was 78 years old. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Because of having Alzheimer’s, they had to let her go. Franklin: Right, right. And what did she do when she worked for the doctors? Davis: For Dr. Lee, she was a surgical nurse. For Dr. Ballmann, she was his medical nurse. Franklin: And how long did your father work at Kadlec for? Davis: I’m going to say for maybe a year, year-and-a-half, after Kadlec came into existence. Franklin: Okay. Davis; And then he worked for HEHF when they got the contract. Franklin: When was that? Davis: I’m not really sure when that was. He worked until he was 65 for HEHF as the administrator. Did all the hiring and firing for HEHF. Franklin: Okay. It says here that your father lived in the barracks at one time? Davis: He lived in the barracks for the first three months. And then they lived on Armistead—and I don’t know the exact address—for four-and-a-half years. And then they moved into 1918 Howell, three months before I was born. My mother was out watering the new lawn when she started her labor with me. Franklin: How—sorry. Did your father have any stories or anything about—or your mother—about—well, actually, I guess that’s a good question. So your father came in ’44, and your mother in June ’44. Do you know if your mother worked on the Manhattan Project? For the year— Davis: No, she didn’t. She did not— Franklin: Okay. Davis: --work for the Manhattan Project. But she did tell stories of standing in line for rations, meat rations, sugar rations, coffee rations, when it was 110 degrees and no trees. Franklin: Oh, man, wow. Davis: They would both talk about the terminating winds that people would just leave because it was dusty, so dusty you couldn’t see. And every day, you had to clean out your window sills because of the dust that piled up in the windows. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Do your parents have any other stories about that time? Anything that sticks out to you that you can remember? Davis: Now, they went and watched Eddie Feigner, the baseball player, was here. They went to a lot of baseball games to watch him, and they did a lot of their own entertaining. They played bridge every week, and rode their bikes an awful lot, played a lot of tennis. Franklin: I see. Oh, that’s good. I mean, you got to stay entertained. Tell me about growing up in Richland, you know, being a government town. I understand you would’ve been young for a lot of that, but during the Cold War, being this government town. Davis: I remember in grade school, we had to do duck-and-cover under our desks. We did that once a week. Franklin: Can you walk me through that process? Davis: You got under your desk and got on your knees and put your hands over your face, and you waited until they said everything was clear. Franklin: And you said you did that about once a week? Davis: Once a week. Franklin: So that means you got—I bet everybody got pretty—was it the same time all the time, or did you just hear the bell and know it was duck-and-cover time? Davis: You’d hear the siren and they’d have you—give you directions to do the duck-and-cover. Franklin: When did you understand, first understand, what was at Hanford or what was being produced at Hanford? Davis: I think that I learned about it when I was about 14, 15 years old. Franklin: Oh, really? Davis: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, and what do you remember about that? Davis: That everything was secretive. Nobody could discuss their jobs, what they were doing, or anything. So there was a lot of secrecy in it. But we didn’t question it. Franklin: Really? So, what did you think about it, when you found out what was being made at Hanford? How did that make you feel, or— Davis: I think it made me, you know—that saved our country. If we hadn’t done it, we might be slaves to the Japanese or to the Germans. Franklin: What about the work that had happened after the World War II, what about the continued—because, you know, when you would’ve found out about that, right, there was still a lot of production for the Cold War weapons arsenal. What about—so, I understand that feeling of in the World War II there’s that feeling you mentioned about being physically at war with other countries, declared war. But what about the Cold War? Is that trickier to draw a feeling about, or how do you—what about the Hanford’s relationship to the USSR and to the Cold War and to the nuclear weapons stockpile? Davis: It was, I thought, was scary, growing—learning about it. There was nothing that we could do as citizens ourselves. It was up to what the government—it was their decision, not ours. I really don’t have anything to comment on. Franklin: Sure. I just—the main reason I ask that question, these kinds of questions is for people—I grew up at the very end of the Cold War, but for myself and for people to come, it’s illustrative, I think, to hear from experiences of people that lived in that time and lived with the fear or the risk or just in that situation. Because it’s so unique. Davis: It is. Franklin: And such an interesting period of time, because World War II is so easily well-defined, and it ended with a lot of joy here and this kind of momentous occasions. Whereas the Cold War had its ups and downs. Davis: Right. Franklin: So that’s why I ask those—not to sort of draw any kind of gotcha moments or anything like that. But to just explore how you felt, or, like, the feeling of the sense of being in that conflict. Davis: I didn’t do a lot of reading, but I did listen to a lot of the news commentators and stuff like that. So just learning about it was an experience to go through. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I bet. So you would’ve found out about Hanford as a teenager, and then do you remember the sale of when Richland became privatized? Davis: Yes, I do. Franklin: I guess you would’ve been about ten. Davis: My dad showed my brother and I the biggest check we’d probably ever see written by my parents when they bought their house for $8,000. He took it with him when they signed the papers so that—we had ownership of our house, rather than the government coming in and changing lights; we changed our own lights, we could do reconstruction or construction—remodeling on the house and stuff like that, where we couldn’t before. So it was a great experience for my brother and I to go with them and to see what the process was in buying the house. My parents’ first house. Franklin: Did life change for you substantially after Richland was—or did you notice changes? Davis: I didn’t notice anything changing. We never locked our house or our cars. The kids in the neighborhood played out in the summer until 11:00 at night and you didn’t have to worry about children missing or being molested. We were a safe place to live and grow up. Our main activity was going to the river and swimming and water skiing everyday during the summer. During the winter, we snow skied. My dad learned to snow ski at 48. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Davis: We taught him. He took a few lessons, but he learned, basically, from my brother and I. Franklin: Wow, that’s really cool. And so you graduated in— Davis: 1967. Franklin: And then what? Davis: Then I went to two-and-a-half years at CBC. And I’m dyslexic, so I could take about 12 credit hours. And then I decided after two-and-a-half years, I could get a job in the Area and my dad said—I said, can you help me get a job? And he says, I don’t want to be owing to anybody for getting a job for you. He says, if you get a job, you’re going to have to get it on your own. So I laid out of school for a year-and-a-half and I worked at Roger’s of Walla Walla in a potato shed. We had no air conditioning. Franklin: Whew. Davis: You inspected the potatoes and they were done then made into French fries. They’d come down the conveyor belt, and you’d pull the potato off that was rotten, or it wasn’t good enough to be used. So you pulled them off. And then you also packed five six-pound bags into a box and put it on the conveyor belt to go into the freezer. Another job was to make the box—the boxes were made, but you had to put it on a conveyor belt down to where it was put into—the potato sacks were put into the boxes and shipped to the cooler. What made me decide to go back to school was, I was working graveyard the whole year-and-a-half I worked there. But I’d worked there three summers and got a job full-time. Two women got into a brawl, biting, kicking, scratching, and I quit that night and said, I’m going back to school. I went back to school and majored in recreation, park administration at Eastern Washington University. It was a state college then. Franklin: Right. Davis: And I worked between my junior and senior year of college for the Richland Recreation Department. And then after I graduated from college, a year-and-a-half after I graduated from college, I got a job, my first job at Exxon. My salary for the whole year was $5,000 a year. Which was low in ’74 when I started. But everything was lower. Prices were lower then. And then I worked for them for four years, and then I got hired in by United Nuclear in 1978. And I worked in document control through many changes of companies until I was laid off in 2005. And then— Franklin: Oh, wow. Davis: 27 ½ years. And then I got a job working for the Richland School District as a bus aide for special needs kids, and just loved it. And I just quit working when I turned 66 two years ago. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—well, it’s great that you really enjoyed your last job. Records control, was that at the Federal Building? Davis: In the Federal Building, when I worked for United Nuclear, I went out and changed the operating procedures for N Reactor and the production of making the fuel rods for N Reactor. And then I worked in all aspects of document control for 25 years. The last job I worked at was procedures. I would take around procedures for safety operations, environmental, and I’d get the signatures from the engineers and that’s what I did. Franklin: And so what did—when you’re doing document control, what would those duties usually consist of? Davis: What would what be? Franklin: Sorry. When you were doing document control, what did that consist of? Like, what were your duties? Davis: Like I said, I retired records, and they were stored in records storage. Then my last job, like I said, was working with the engineers on writing of the procedures. Franklin: Interesting. It’s very similar to what I do as an archivist, is I manage records as well. Although in a different—manage them for research use. But it’s very similar steps, right? You follow a disposition schedule, you file the records in appropriate places, after a certain time you send things to— Did you send things to the National Archives at certain times, or--? Davis: No, we didn’t. I did not. But my group did. Franklin: Okay. How big was your group? Davis: We had about six people in that, in all different aspects. Franklin: How many different contractors did you work for, starting with United Nuclear? Davis: I worked for about four different companies. The last one was CH2M Hill. Franklin: Okay. And so what were the other two? Davis: Boeing. And I can’t remember what the other one was. Franklin: Is it Lockheed? Davis: Yes, Lockheed Martin. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve seen their— Davis: It was Boeing and then Lockheed Martin. Franklin: LMSI. Davis: LMSI. Franklin: I’ve seen that on a lot of the documents we have in the Hanford Collection. Davis: Yeah. Franklin: I just—it’s nice to kind of trace that—I’m just going to write that down. United Nuclear Industries, Boeing, LMSI, CH2M Hill. Thank you. That’s very helpful to me, actually. Because it’s not always clear to reconstruct form the documents. So your brother, the famous Ed Quigley, Jr., the Richland-famous Ed Quigley, what did he do? Davis: He has a degree in social—not social work—psychology and sociology as a double major. But he didn’t—he got into the clinical aspect of it and didn’t like it. And then he started taking—his first wife, Chris, was accepted into Dalhousie University in Canada and they moved to Halifax, Nova Scotia. And he started—that’s where he started his clinical work and decided he didn’t like it. So he was really interested in music, and he took guitar lessons and now he is teaching at Ted Brown’s Music Center in Tacoma. He’s been there for 40-some years. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And he just went with us to Canada. We went to Canada for a month. Just got back last week. And he went with us. That’s what he does. Franklin: Oh, cool. Davis: And he lives in a beach house which has got 210 stairs up and down to his house, so anything you bring down and all the garbage has to go back up. Franklin: I bet he stays in pretty good shape doing all that, right? Davis: Yeah, he is. Franklin: Yeah, I was going to say, that would—maybe I should get 210 stairs to my house. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us about your work or growing up in Hanford or your parents? Davis: I can remember, during the time that we were government, if you dialed 0 you got the FBI. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Did that accidentally happen in your new household? Davis: We did! Once! [LAUGHTER] And got in trouble for it. Franklin: Wow. Davis: You know, we lived in a real sheltered community. When I was growing up, there was only one person that—or one family that I knew was divorced. They were a doctor and his wife and their three kids. That was the only divorce that I knew. So we were a pretty sheltered community. If your kids got in trouble, you were out of here. They didn’t put up with it. But I feel blessed to be in a community that was so caring and so carefree with letting us play outside. Now, you don’t let your kids go outside without being chaperoned. Some of my friends have got grandkids, and they don’t let them out of the house, because of the crime situations, child molestations. So I feel pretty blessed that I lived in a community where nobody bothered anybody, but you knew everybody. Franklin: Right, but I suppose a lot of that is due to kind of the single focus of that community being on Hanford employees, right? Davis: Right. Franklin: And the government control of the—the fear of—maybe not the fear of retribution, but knowing that there was kind of something watching over you. Davis: Right, right. Franklin: Which was the government. What about—did you—like the racial situation in Pasco or Kennewick ever make a mark on you, or do you remember any, like the civil rights era kind of stuff in the Tri-Cities? Davis: As a child, or as parents, our parents never took us to Pasco because of the racial situation there. And Kennewick didn’t allow any blacks, either, at that particular time, growing up. They were all in Pasco, on the east side. So we didn’t really go to Pasco a lot, or to Kennewick. We just stayed in our own community. Franklin: Because Richland just excluded—until ’58, you couldn’t live there unless you worked there, and they didn’t hire many African Americans. Davis: No, they didn’t. Franklin: At all, because there was no civil rights legislation to push equal—you know, push away discrimination in housing or employment. As you mentioned, Kennewick had sundown laws that kept African Americans from owning property. What about, is there any other significant events in Tri—do you remember like the Atomic Frontier Days parade? Davis: Yes, I do. That was one of the big things in Richland, was to go to the Atomic Frontier Days. We went every year, and just had a lot of fun. Franklin: How long did those go till? Davis: Now, that, I’m not sure. I can’t remember that. Franklin: Do you remember President Kennedy’s visit in 1963? Davis: Yes. I was let out of school to go hear him dedicate N Area, N Reactor. Franklin: How was—can you talk a little bit about that? How was that? Davis: Lots and lots of people. It was so crowded. It was good to see—that was the first time I’d ever seen a president up close. Franklin: How close were you? Davis: We weren’t right up front, but we were in the midst of the crowds that was out there. And it was a great feeling. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Any other events in the Tri-Cities’ history that come to mind? Davis: No, I can’t remember a lot about that. Franklin: How did—so you worked for several different contractors and you also worked from production to shutdown to kind of cleanup. I was wondering if you could talk first about, how did your job change with different contractors? Or how was that—did the work situation change at all, or was it pretty constant? Davis: No, you did the—I was doing the same job that I was assigned to. Nothing seemed to change when a new contractor came in. Franklin: So was there kind of a lack of like an organizational culture with each contractor? Davis: Now, when we went—when CH2M Hill came in, we had to apply for our—re-apply for our jobs, and that was real unsettling to everybody. Because you didn’t know whether you were going to be the one that was going to be out on the street or whether you weren’t. So that was a lot of pressure was put on us. Franklin: Wow. I bet. What about, how did your job change at all from production to stoppage of production and then to the cleanup phase? Davis: Now, from production we changed a little bit, but not a whole lot. And then when we went into—I was laid off in 2005. And so I don’t know—I didn’t work with any of the cleanup completely. Like they are now. So I don’t know. Franklin: What kind of—well, but then—since production stopped in ’87, ’88— Davis: Yeah. Franklin: What happened in those years of the ‘90s and up? Davis: Well, N Area was still going. And then when they closed that down, things started changing, document-wise, with that. Franklin: How so? Davis: You had different things that we were given to do that were different from what we were doing when we were in production. Franklin: Could you describe that? Or like maybe some—what was different about them? Davis: I can’t really explain it. Franklin: Okay. Davis: But it was different. We had different things to do and different things to follow during that time. Franklin: Okay. Is there any example that comes to mind? Davis: Not really. Franklin: Okay. Let me see here. How did—can you describe how this kind of element of security or safety impacted your work at Hanford? Davis: You took pleasure in your job, and you were really loyal to what you were doing. You just had a great sense of gratitude for how we were doing it and what we were doing. Franklin: That’s great. What about for your father? Was he ever—do you know if he was ever impacted by security restrictions or safety stuff, or how that affected his job? Davis: That I don’t know, because he didn’t really discuss that with us. Franklin: Right. Davis: His work thing was separate from his family and social life. So we really didn’t hear about it. Franklin: Oh, right, okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Davis: I think that, you know, we were safe. And then when the Cold War came on, we weren’t as safe, because we didn’t know if somebody was going to send a bomb over and destroy us. Or destroy themselves, because we would probably retaliate. And to think that we could wipe the whole world out by what we were doing. We just didn’t trust each other. And we still, to this day, don’t know a lot about what’s going on either. We know more, but we don’t know everything. Franklin: Mm. Yeah. That is very true. One of the last things I’d like to ask you about is your relationship or your involvement in the B Reactor Museum Association. Davis: We just joined in June, so we’ve had— Franklin: Of this year? Davis: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: So we’ve had two meetings [LAUGHTER] before we left to go to Alaska. Franklin: Oh, okay. And why did you choose to get involved in that? Davis: We wanted—because we both, both Charles and I worked here, and we wanted to get active in the organization to promote what Hanford’s about and the B Reactor especially. We went on the July 16th thing to B Reactor. It was great. We learned a lot. Just to walk into that face, and see the face of the reactor. Franklin: Was that your first time to B Reactor? Davis: That was my first time. Franklin: Yeah, it’s almost a religious experience in some ways. Davis: Yes, it is. Franklin: To be confronted with that massive, powerful reactor. You said your husband, Charles, worked on Site? Davis: Yes, he did. Franklin: And what did he do? Davis: He worked, to begin with, as a Hanford Patrol. And then he went from there into nuclear operator, and then from there he went into operations at T Plant. He was one of their administrators. He wasn’t high up, but he— Franklin: And how long did he work at Hanford for? Davis: He worked for 24 ½ years before he got laid off. Franklin: Oh, okay, and what years were those? Davis: Okay, ’78 to 2003. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: ’80. No, I take it back. 1980 through— Franklin: And—oh, sorry. Where did you guys meet? Did you meet at Hanford? Davis: No. We met square dancing. Franklin: Oh, okay. That’s really great. Did you meet him before you were working at Hanford or after? Davis: No, after. Franklin: Okay, you worked there pretty much around the same timespan. Davis: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s really interesting. Cool. Davis: You might want to interview him, too. Franklin: Yeah, that would be really interesting. Davis: He wasn’t born or raised here, but— Franklin: No, but that’s—it’s really good to get—one of the things we’ve been looking for is perspectives of those who worked during the later Cold War. Because, you know, it’s such a big event. Davis: Right. Franklin: And then the shift, too, from production to cleanup is a really important shift that will become more historical as time goes on, so it’s good to get the people while they have fresher memories than trying to make them drag out stuff from 50, 60 years ago. Which is—if that’s the best you got, then that’s the best you got. Well, great, Elaine, thank you so much for the information and the interview. Did you want to narrate some of the stuff you brought, or did you just want to donate that to us to scan? Davis: I’ll donate that to you. Franklin: Okay, great. Well, we’ll have that and we’ll put it in the file with your interview and so people can take a look at that, too, to kind of—if they want to see pictures of Ed, Jr., and all the newspaper articles. Well, I mean, I think there’s really something important about a community coming together to celebrate that first new life. That’s so important at the beginning of a community to see that happening, it makes it, I think, a nicer place to live. So that’s really neat. Well, thank you so much. Davis: You’re welcome. Thank you. Franklin: Yeah, watch out for the microphone up above you. Sorry. Davis: Oh! How’d I do? Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elaine Davis Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Atomic Products Operation Douglas United Nuclear, Inc. Description An account of the resource Elaine Davis grew up in Richland in the early Cold War. Her father came to Richland in 1944 and was an administrator at Kadlec Hospital. Her older brother was the first baby born in the new town of Richland Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/2/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F82c04966c9ad4d75be52520235b0f436.jpg 0cfd3eabf5f6f11bc4ae97cf18f78000 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5ac81b95ffc5c268e001b40efe232954.mp4 912843de88d1ba96be6a1ee7dfb001cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Gladden Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Northwest Public Television | Gladden_Elizabeth </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Elizabeth Gladden. Capital E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H. Gladden. G-L-A-D-D-E-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Great. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: The first year I was there, I was a Feemster. I was unmarried. And then we got married this second year. So my maiden name was Feemster. So the Social Security people told me to keep the F. Originally my middle initial was an E. But to keep the F of the maiden name to keep their records straight. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Sure. Right. And how did you spell your maiden name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: F-E-E-M-S-T-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. And my name is Robert Bauman. And we're conducting this oral history interview on July 7, 2014, on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I guess let's start with maybe how you found out about—what were you doing before the war, maybe? And how you found out about an opportunity to teach at Heart Mountain. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Okay. As I said, Pearl Harbor is the one that started it all. And from there, the Army thought that the Japanese on the west coast would be a danger. And they wanted them moved. And we found out later that that wasn't true, that they really weren't a danger, that California just wanted the Japanese out, and this was a good opportunity to get them out. And I was teaching in Nebraska when Pearl Harbor came along. And then I finished that year, and the next year I moved to a town called Osceola in Nebraska, which was a little better opportunity. And I taught one week when I got a call from the Davis teachers' agency, telling me that they had a good job for me in Wyoming. And it sounded very good because I was getting $1,000 there, and out in Wyoming, I would be getting $2,000. So I just doubled the pay for a couple months' more work. My father thought I was going to the end of the world. But I resigned then at Osceola. I don't think the school board was very happy with me. And I packed up and came out to Heart Mountain. And it was, I think, the second week in September when I got out there. Some of the teachers had gotten there already. The principal and school superintendent had been on the job for several months. And they had tried to get everything organized so that we could be an accredited high school. And then we started school I think the first week in October. Several weeks I was there beforehand, we sorted books and got assigned to our classrooms and got things set out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you remember what your first impressions were when you arrived in Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: What? What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Your first impressions of the place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden. Oh. [LAUGHTER] I remember writing the folks and saying that it was all right if you looked up. The sky was pretty and blue, but not if you looked around. No, it was very, very bleak. It was hot. And all you saw were these black tar paper barracks. And you just saw the trainloads of evacuees coming in, and you felt sorry for them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What sort of housing did you have there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, the first year we lived in Cody, Wyoming. There was no gas, so people weren't traveling. So we lived in a—what do you call it? It was a motel. A little motel. And a lot of the faculty lived there. There wasn't enough room at Heart Mountain yet. They had built dorms out there, and some of the single people were out there in dorms. But there were no apartments for the married people at all. And then in the next year, we had a fairly nice apartment, except ours also was not dust-proof. We had lots and lots of dust. But we did have electricity and water and a refrigerator. And all the evacuees had when they arrived was a big room. The rooms varied in size, depending on the size of the family. Some of the rooms were 20 feet long, and some were much smaller. Families varied from six on down to single. They had one lightbulb hanging down from the ceiling, no running water. The latrines and the showers were all outside. There was one for each block. And there were 20 blocks. So it was pretty cold. They said some of the mothers didn't get anything done but bundling up their children and taking them out to the bathroom and back in again. It was pretty, pretty sad. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And for the single people, were there separate dorms for the single people? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, the evacuees were in the same ones, but they had a smaller apartment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Oh, okay, I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: They say the women went to work immediately, getting sheets and so forth, dividing up the space so they'd have a little privacy. And I guess the latrines at first were just wide open. There was no privacy in them at all. But the Japanese were quite ingenious. They began to do things. They said Montgomery Ward and Sears Roebuck got a lot of money from tools that the internees had ordered. Some of them were trying to patch up the leaky holes in the barracks and so forth. They had one pot-bellied stove in each room. They didn't do adequate heating jobs, of course. Of course, that's what we had too, up on the hill. We had a pot-bellied stove. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so what did you teach then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I taught English, and I also had a math class. I taught freshman and sophomore English and Algebra. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And about how many students did you have in a class? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, several of the classes were quite small. But they never got over 25 or so. They were pretty good. And I would say that the discipline was heaven. We had none of the discipline problems that I had when I got back to Pasco. [LAUGHTER] I think they were all kind of beaten down at that point. They seemed cheerful, but I don't know. They must have thought they couldn't get by with anything, because they very good. And of course the original schools were in the barracks. And there were no desks. They had the long benches that the kids sat in, and they had to do their writing on their lap. And I had an assistant to help me grade papers, which was nice, because I'd never had that before. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So the whole time you were there, there were no desks? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, just in the barracks. In '43, then, the high school was built. And it was heaven compared to what we had. It went up within a year. But it had a big administrative building--section in the middle. And then it had two big wings on it. And they had a Home Ec department in one section. They had a shop. They had a science department. They had a big gymnasium and auditorium combined. And we had enough textbooks finally. So it was very, very much improved over the first year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What about eating facilities? Were there cafeterias, mess halls? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, the kids always ate in the mess hall. You see, each block had its own mess hall where they would go, along with their bath facilities. And they would go to the mess hall to eat. I might say that at first there was a little unrest. They claimed they weren't getting the proper food and so forth. But they kind of worked with the administration. And later they didn't seem to complain so much about the food. Then we had a separate cafeteria up on the hill where we ate at noon. And we complained, because the meat was always lamb. I was so tired of lamb when we got through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: I guess that's what was available in Wyoming. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Right. Yeah. Well, another thing that's of interest when we're talking about food is that they had their own chicken ranch down at the bottom they put in. And they also had a bunch of pigs down there. And the second year, the late summer, 1945, they took over the land across the street--across the highway—and they put in a huge garden. And they had every kind of vegetable imaginable down there. And the people around Cody said that it wouldn't grow. It wouldn't grow there at all. But we had an abundance of fresh things then. And it was in the fall of 1945—1944, rather—when it got really cold, and they were afraid the potatoes were all going to freeze. So they dismissed school. And they plowed up all the potatoes. And the kids went out and picked up potatoes. The faculty, too. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So about how many internees were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: We had 10,000 in the camp. And there were times when we had about 10,700. There were 120,000 Japanese that were evacuated. If you had a sixth of a Japanese blood in you, you were evacuated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And obviously all the internees were from the west coast. Were they mostly from California? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: All along the coast. They were sent from Washington, along the coast. It went down that were also taken. There is this movie—maybe you've seen it--that is very, very good, number of years ago. And I can't remember the name of it. It's based on a family that was evacuated from over on the coast. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so there were some residents there from the Tri-Cities area, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, yes. My understanding is that the Columbia River was the dividing line. Everybody west of the Columbia River went. But some people east—and I know there were a couple families in Pasco went, because they were afraid. Sentiment against the Japanese was very, very bad, and they were afraid to stay. And they came back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Now did you know these people at all when you were there? Or were these people that you heard about later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, once the war was over, it was over, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So for students who were in the high school when they first came to Heart Mountain, but finished high school during the war, were they able go to college somewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, while they were in camp those three years, if they had the resources and they found a school that would accept them, college students could go out, as long as they went east. And we had a number who went out. And also there were a few of the laborers who went out to get better jobs that were allowed to go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So you went there in the fall of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: In the fall of '42, and left in the late summer of '45. Was there five years--or three years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Overall, how would you describe your experience teaching there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, I would say it's very good. We had a nice social background with other Caucasians. And we knew a few of the Japanese. But somehow we didn't get very—there wasn't an opportunity, really, to get very close to them. I might say that the administration did a great job in trying to get things organized, along with the help of the outstanding leaders in the Japanese community. And they had Boy Scout groups and Camp Fire Girls and Girl Scout groups. And they had dance clubs and everything that would keep the kids busy. And when it got really hot, they dug a great big swimming pool. And the kids went swimming. And then in the winter, they skated there. Some of them had never seen an ice skate before. And they had great fun ice skating. They couldn't get out on the hills, though, to go sledding. They had to stay in camp. Oh, I might say there were about 19, I think, guard stations around the camp. And they were up high, with very powerful searchlights. And nobody could get out without being caught. And as we went in and out the gate, we had to have badges on. And the Army was stationed down at the base. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: You mentioned, when I talking to you earlier, that you had teaching assistants or assistants that helped you, grading? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yes, I had two students. They were kids who were already through high school. And they would help grade English papers and math papers. Sakiko Yoshimura and Metsu--Metsuku--Mets--suku—what's her name now? I've forgotten. I saw it in the book. Yeah. Yeah. And we kept track of--one of them went back to Japan the minute the camp closed down. And the other one was a seamstress. And she went to California. And when my daughter and I were traveling one day, we stopped to see her. But we lost track of her later. We don't know what happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Did you ever get a sense, or any of the internees ever say anything? They expressed any sort of disappointment or anger or anything about being in the camp? Or did they not really talk about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, we were told when we went that you'll never get a job in a private school again. If you go teach those Japs. You're through. And they were crying for teachers when we got out. There's no problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So once the camp closed, then, what happened to you? What did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, when the camp closed--well, school was over in 1945 in the last of May. And all teachers were through. But if you wanted to stay on, and they needed you in some other department, you could go. And I was always interested in hospital work. In fact, that's what I thought I wanted to be when I was growing up, was a nurse. So I went to the hospital. And my husband went to the housing area where they were boxing up the household goods that the Japanese acquired and put them on the train. Incidentally, each one was given $25 a ticket to where they wanted to go, and that was it. But I had a lot of experiences in the high school—in the hospital. And I was so grateful for the opportunity. Being a Caucasian, I got to do things--administer medicine and do things—that otherwise the Japanese didn't get to do. And I remember so well. One of the doctors came in and grabbed me one day. And he said, come here, I need you quickly. Lady's going to have a baby. So I was there and he put out his gloves for me to hold to put them on. I was only woman in the room besides the doctor. And I got to see a baby born. And that was before I had any children. And it was really, really interesting. And another experience, there was a time, there was one of the fellows dying, an older man. And she got me and said, I think you need to see this. So she took me in, and we watched his last breaths. And when he was gone, she says, now we have to take out his false teeth and take him to the morgue. They had a morgue in the hospital. So she says, I want you to go down with me. And so I did. And shoved him in the freezer there. Then we came back to the room to clean it up. And she says, oh, I forgot to put his false teeth in. But she says, you don't have to go with me this time. I'll go down and do it. She was a graduate nurse, of course. And the salary scale, I don't think we've talked about, was very interesting. There were three scales. I was making over $200 a month. And the highest any Japanese internee could get was $19 a month. And some of the nurses got a little upset at one time. But they wouldn't do anything about it. They had set the scale for $19 for professional. And then I think it was $16 for in between. And the laborers got only $12 an hour. They said they couldn't pay the laborers more than the Army--an Army private got. And that was $20 a day, not an hour. $20 a day. So they didn't make much money. That was one reason they liked the work outside, if they could. Get a job on the outside. Because the administration demanded that they be paid the same way as a Caucasian on the outside. The governor of Wyoming wasn't very helpful. He wanted them to be slave laborers, practically, and work for $12 an hour. And the WRA--that's the War Relocation Authority--said no. You have to pay them same as you pay Caucasians. So some of them got some extra money that way, if they could be cleared. I mentioned to you the newspaper. We had a fellow who was trained in journalism. And he immediately started a newspaper. It started within a week I think from the time he got there. He got his staff together. It was an eight page newsletter--or newspaper, rather--that came out once every Saturday. And that kind of kept the evacuees in touch with what's going on in the outside world, as long as rules and so forth in the camp. And he had some pretty good editorials, where he was questioning things. And I do have some copies of those that I'll give you, if you want them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Now did those newspapers have to go through-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I don't know how much censoring they did. I wouldn't be surprised, but what they had some though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Were there radios allowed in the camp to listen to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Get updates on was happening in the world? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: There were always rumors, always rumors. [LAUGHTER] We had a fellow up in the dorm area that got the greatest delight out of starting a rumor and seeing how long it took to get around. Oh, there were rumors about how there were Japanese on the coast, and they were going to invade. There was balloons that were going to be coming over, and so forth and so on. But nothing ever happened. There was never any incident at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how large the staff was that worked at the camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, dear. I think there were 200 in the administrative area. And teachers--I don't know for a school that size—it was a big high school. We had the eighth grade in the high school, too. So it was a pretty big school. And our classes weren't big. I remember one summer, I taught solid geometry, and I only had about eight students in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And was there a graduation ceremony? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes, yes. When they graduated, there was a big ceremony. We had a big auditorium, as I said, which was also a gym. And it was well used here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Was there a church or churches in the camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes. The WRA started out with two churches, a Catholic and a Protestant. And the Buddhists wanted their church. And two-thirds of the group were Buddhists. And the WRA refused, but eventually gave in. So eventually there was a Buddhist church, and the Catholic and the Protestant. We went to the Protestant church and got very well acquainted with the minister and his wife and had them over for dinner. Nice couple. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you remember when you heard about the war ending? Or any of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes. We were eating lunch in--oh, no, no. When we were eating lunch, it was when Roosevelt was pronounced dead. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: And my husband was down in the lab, because he was always fooling with radios. He was building his own radio. And he came rushing up and said that Roosevelt had died. And this was during the lunch hour. I forget the date. But the war--well, it's an interesting story about how we heard about the war. We were married in '43. My sister was married in '45. And her husband was working at the University of Chicago. And the department--what do they call it? The one where they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: The Manhattan Project, or-? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. Well, it's part of the Manhattan Project. And he knew what we were doing out at Hanford, but we didn't know what was going on out here. And so the fellas were in the living room--I remember--and we were out in the breakfast nook at York, Nebraska, at my parents' home. And Stanley--my brother-in-law--came running out to the kitchen and grabbed my sister by the arm and said, come in and listen to this. He said, I want you to hear it. And you tell me what you heard. And she did. And then he said, well, that's what I've been doing. So that was how we know the war had ended. They'd dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. They always said Hiroshima, not "Hiro-SHEE-ma." </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So now did you and your husband meet at Heart Mountain? Or, how did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I met my husband at the University of Chicago. I was there one summer. And we got acquainted. And we corresponded. And he'd come to Nebraska and so forth. Then he ran out of money. He was working on his Ph.D. So he took a job at Whitehall, Montana. And he was there the year that I was at Heart Mountain, the first year. And then he wanted to come down. And of course they gave him a job. And we were married then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so after the war ended, how did you end up in Pasco then? How did that happen? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, that was when--we stayed in Heart Mountain until almost the end of the summer. And then my husband was interested in getting a teaching job in Washington. So he started applying for jobs along the Columbia River, any big town. And Pasco was the first one that answered his letter and said, we have a science job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What were your first impressions of Pasco? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Terrible. [LAUGHTER] Terrible. It was the last day in August. Very, very hot. We were in what they call the Riverside homes, down the river. Big room. We must have had a refrigerator. I don't remember it. But the cupboards were open. No doors on the cupboards or anything. And of course there was no electricity. I mean, you couldn't buy any electric gadgets. You did your cooking on a range. And if you can imagine that, on the last day of August--then it was then that C.L. Booth, the superintendent, asked me if--or I said, do I have to stay here? And he asked me what I did. And I said, oh, I've been teaching school. And he said, come on up and we'll you a job. So then I taught a year. And then we quit to have our family. And then I went back later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so you already knew about Hanford before you came here, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah, we found out. The end of August, I guess, or in August, whenever that was, when my sister and her husband were there, because they'd just gotten married. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So what was Pasco like as a community in the 1940s, 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, we stayed the first night at the new Pasco hotel on Lewis Street. And before we got our Riverside apartment. And it was pretty hot. I wasn't much impressed. My husband always wanted to go to Hawai’i. And he thought, well, we would be on our way to Hawai’i, then. He thought it would be nice to teach over there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so you stayed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: So we stayed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So that would be 70--almost 70 years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah, well, it was 70--I figured it was 72 years since I'd been at Heart Mountain. We came to Pasco in '45. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: '45? 69 years, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: About 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: ‘45 to now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So if there anything I haven't asked you about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well I think we’ve- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: --Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, there was one thing that--the Nisei were subject to draft. And they had to fill out a big form. And they had a couple questions on there that a few of them wouldn't sign. One of them, are willing to withdraw all allegiance to the Japanese emperor? And the other one, are you loyal to the United States? Would you be serving the Army? And there was a committee that formed. And some of them thought their constitutional rights had definitely been tramped on. And that they wouldn't sign, they said, until they were given their freedom back. But the 442nd contingent that you know about, that was so very, very famous, they were all made up of Japanese. And a lot of Japanese took part there. But because of the questionnaire and so forth, and some of them got a little belligerent, they were arrested. And there was one fellow who really wouldn't give in. And he was put in jail for three years I know of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So you knew about that, about the questionnaire. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Uh-huh, yeah. That happened while we were there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Were there a number of young men from Heart Mountain who did end up going to the military, joining the Army? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes, yes, a lot of them. Which I think was pretty wonderful. The way they've been treated, that they would actually go. But they were showing their loyalty to the US. They claimed they were still US citizens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Well, this has been very interesting for me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, it's fun to review it. I hadn't thought about it for so long. But it's interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: At some point, when you were here in Pasco, did you ever get to know any of the Japanese-Americans who lived here who had been in Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, my husband had Jerry Minatoya I think, in class in Heart Mountain. And when he got here, he had him in class in high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: There were a number of Japanese families living in Pasco, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in and sharing your experiences and your photos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well it’s been—I'm sorry my voice is so cracky. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: No, it’s wonderful. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: You're welcome. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:00 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1945-2015 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Booth, C.L.; Minatoya, Jerry Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 226 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Gladden Description An account of the resource An interview with Elizabeth Gladden conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [J.G] Subject The topic of the resource Pasco(Wash,) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/7/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Ice Skating Pasco (Wash.) swimming War Relocation Authority (United States) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa5a8dcdd12fbca9989b5d633fc57f0e3.JPG fae2178edeeec17f60766a4a4d89ea45 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F57f37ea890397fdef25ac5a08b33b79f.mp4 b876e5a6903fef8c367009890b5ce932 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellenor Moore Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Ellenor Moore on March 21st, 2018. The interview is being conducted at Ellenor Moore’s home in Pasco. I will be talking with Ellenor about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Ellenor Moore: Yes. My name is Ellenor Louise Moore. It’s spelled E-L-L-E-N-O-R, middle initial, L, Moore, M-O-O-R-E. Franklin: Great, thank you so much. Where and when were you born? Moore; I was born in Louisiana. Franklin: Okay. Moore: In 1932. I’m 85 years old. So. Franklin: I’d like to talk about your life before coming to the Tri-Cities, so I’m wondering if you could kind of—what type of environment was it to grow up in Louisiana in the ‘30s and ‘40s? Moore: Well, you know, I was in the late teens when I came, when my father got work here and came from Louisiana here to work. Growing up in Louisiana, it was really—well, we went through part of the Depression, the big depression and everything. But you know, everyone was kind of in the same conditions. So, as a child, I didn’t realize how bad it was. But it really was. It was bad. At that time, we lived in the country. My father worked—he wasn’t a farmer. He just didn’t like it; he never—he wasn’t one. And he had grown up partly in St. Louis, where his mother had lived. He came back to Louisiana. The story is that he met my mother and then he was there and he stayed there, but he didn’t like it at all. He always had the idea he was going to get away and he was going to go wherever he could go. During World War II, he was thinking he wanted to go back to St. Louis. But housing and everything was so hard to get, he never did really do that. He wound up—he went out and worked in the defense, when they were building the army camps and stuff like that, back in 19—what would that have been? ’41, ’42? So that was the kind of work, he did that. And then when he came back, of course he couldn’t find anything to do except worked at a sawmill. We lived in the housing that was there, which was very poor. There was no indoor plumbing or anything like that. You grew up—I remember at like eight, nine years old, ten years old, it was really, really bad. So that was the only thing that kind—that kept us there. After the sawmill, we moved into the little town, which was Jonesville and that’s where I went to school there. Then my dad got a job at a car—automobile franchise, I guess you’d call it. He worked there until he was able to leave and come here to work. Franklin: What year did your father come here? Moore: In 19—the early part of 1950. Franklin: And what did he come here to do? Moore: He came here to do whatever kind of work he could get. I mean, he wanted to get away. From my understanding, most of the people that came here, a lot of them, they just—they were looking for work. We heard about it from—well, my uncle had been in the service, and when he came back he was stationed in Bremerton. That’s how we knew about, you know, the Northwest. I had never even heard about it. Here I was, I don’t know how old I was; I was probably eight years old, and he came, he was stationed there, and then he was discharged and he came back home to Louisiana, but he stayed for a very short time, because he did not want to be there. He’d gotten—he had been overseas and stuff like that. And he came back and settled in Seattle. Then my aunt came. I remember when he came back up here and he was saying that he was going to live up here. I remember my aunt saying to him, well, as soon as you can, send for me, because I don’t want to be here either. And she came. Then my grandmother, they sent for my grandmother, my mother’s mother. And they were in Seattle. But it took a while before my father was able to get away from there. The way he got away is that my grandmother had met this man, Mr. Jones, that had worked at Hanford. He was talking about how they were hiring people and they wanted people to work and that’s how my dad found out about it. As soon as he could leave there, he did. He came here to live. It took him two years to save enough money to send for the family. Franklin: Oh, wow. Moore: What I remember about it is the living conditions and housing was just horrible. Franklin: Here or in Louisiana? Moore: Here! Here. Because there was no housing for black people. You had to live in east Pasco. The housing wasn’t adequate at all. We moved into—I remember when we came—I didn’t come with—at that time, my grandmother had moved back to Louisiana, so when the rest of the family came, when my mother and the other two children came, I stayed with my grandmother, and they sent for me later on. But in the same year. My mother actually cried because of where they had to live when they first came here. Franklin: Really? Could you describe it? What kind of— Moore: Well, I can remember, it was like a little encampment over on, what, Idaho Street, I believe it was. It was owned by a family called the Haneys, and you probably—because they were here for many, many years and they still are here. They have grandchildren, all of them still here. And they owned some property and they’d put up some little shacks that people could rent. That’s what I’d call them, they were little shacks. They were—no inside plumbing; they had like a public bathhouse on the property. All of that was just so foreign to us. So my mother spent most of her time trying to find a place for us to move. I think we lived in that place about three months. And then she found a house over on—what was that? On Douglas Street. And so it was—that was just—we were all so glad to get out of that place where we were. So that’s what I remember about it. There was not very much—now, I never worked out at Hanford. My dad did. But that was the conditions. And by that time, I finished high school and my first real job, I got it at Our Lady of Lourdes. Sister Anthony Marie was my supervisor. I never will forget her, because when I applied for the job, I was just going to take any job. It wasn’t any special job; I just wanted to work. I had finished high school, and I’d started to go to business college in Kennewick. It was very difficult, because I didn’t have very much money or anything like that. But I needed to work, and I thought, well, I have to get a job. I applied at Our Lady of Lourdes and I was hired. I was prepared to work wherever if it was cleaning up in the kitchen or whatever. Sister Anthony Marie hired me and trained me as a hospital aide. That was—at that time, the aides had to wear the white uniform, the white stockings and everything except the cap, as a nursing aide. So that was my first real job here. The pay was $120 a month. And I was glad to get it. Franklin: How would that have compared to the job back in the—to the similar type of job back in the South? Moore: Well, before we’d moved, my mother—it was two doctors in the little town where we lived. My mother got a job where she worked at that doctor’s office. I think she was getting paid, maybe, $15 a week. Franklin: Oh, okay, so, $120 a month was quite a bit more. Moore: Yeah. And my first real job. Oh, I was very happy to get it. I worked a year-and-a-half. Things had started to improve a little bit. That’s when they started building some other housing in east Pasco. But I worked 15 months at Our Lady of Lourdes and then I moved on to Seattle, because my aunt and uncle and all lived in Seattle. I got a job as a hospital aide at the veterans’ hospital, the new one that they opened that year. And so that’s where I worked until I’d gotten married. You know, so it was a real journey. But I also kind of wanted to go to school and it just seemed like I never did get a chance to do it. I had to work. And then I got married, and of course, three children, just one right after the other. And I worked a lot, but it was at home, taking care of kids. I married Thomas Moore. Now he had been here since, I guess, 1949. He was a divorcé; he had two girls. So I had a family right away. And then, as I said, three children. It was five children. The girls were—when Tom and I got married, the girls were ten and five. So that was a nice experience for me. But I had helped raise—actually, at home, I was the oldest one. So my three brothers and—my three siblings, I’d always helped with them. So I knew how to take care of kids. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you meet Thomas in Seattle, or—Thomas was from here? Or he had moved here? Moore: He had moved here. When he came here from what I’ve heard, from some of the things he said, he always wanted to be a businessman. He had a restaurant downtown near the overpass, you know that street that—what is that? The main street that comes through Pasco there. Lewis Street. Franklin: Lewis Street. Moore: Lewis Street. So he had—and, you know, at that time, it was kind of segregated in the sense that—but he went out of business with that. I don’t know how long he had it. At the time I married him, he had a pool hall over in east Pasco. That was when he had the other restaurant, I think, that was when he was married to his first wife. And then when they were divorced, he still had that pool hall. But that—at that time, things had opened up. There was some housing where people of color could get housing—rent places near the railroad track on the east side. But that’s about as far as they got. Took a while for people to be able to get decent housing. Franklin: Right, because Pasco was divided into— Moore: It was divided into east Pasco and north Pasco. The railroad track actually divided the community and—I have to get—I have hay fever here. Franklin: Oh, no problem. Moore: So I got to get my tissue. I remember when working at Our Lady of Lourdes, I had to walk to work because I didn’t have any transportation. And at that time, there was not—it was a lot of empty spaces over there in east Pasco. It wasn’t that much housing, a lot of tumbleweeds, which I’d never seen in my life. I didn’t even know what a tumbleweed was. [LAUGHTER] I can remember, one of the things that I remember, walking to work—and the wind blew a lot then—those tumbleweeds would just come rolling down the street, well the roads, mostly. You didn’t want to get caught in that bunch, because they’d gather up as they’d come, and you don’t want to get caught in that. [LAUGHTER] So I can remember, walking, trying to dodge tumbleweeds on my way walking. And coming under that underpass, that always frightened me. I never wanted to do it, but I had to. You either did that or you walked across the railroad track. I was afraid to walk across the railroad track, because of trains. So, you know, going under that underpass was not easy for me. So anyway, that’s some of the things that I remember about that. It’s just the hardships. Dad would come home from work sometime and he would say things like, oh, well, they had to hose us down today. What is that? Well, you know, they wash you off, because they could read that we had been in a hot place. Now, here’s the thing. I don’t think anyone, pretty much, that was working out there understood what that really meant. They didn’t really understand. I mean, they didn’t know how dangerous it was. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: And so—we didn’t. I was the oldest one in my family, but I didn’t really understand anything about that. I didn’t know that it was really dangerous and it was something that he could’ve still had on him, on his clothing or whatever, when he came home, and I’m sure he did. But that happened a lot, where he was working, he said, we got into a hot area. They didn’t really explain that to workers. They told them, but, you know? Who knew? I mean, most of the people, a lot of the people were just like my dad. They’d come from an area that nothing like that had ever happened. They didn’t really know what it was all about. Franklin: What kind of education level did your dad have? Moore: My dad, I think he went to—let me see—he finished the eighth grade. Franklin: Okay. And when he got a job out at Hanford, did he ever talk about what he did? Was he like construction, or--? Moore: It was construction. He belonged to the labor union. And it was construction, and a lot of it, I guess, was clean-up stuff that they did. Cleaning up what, I have no idea. You know, we didn’t know, and they didn’t either. They just did whatever they were told to do. Franklin: Was he happy with the compensation of the job, like the pay, was it a good job for him, or was he still kind of looking unsatisfied, kind of looking for— Moore: Well, it was a good job for him. I mean, he had never been able to get a job that paid as much as it did. Yeah. I don’t remember him complaining about the work; he was just glad to be working. Franklin: How long did he work out at Hanford for? Moore: Oh, let’s see. Oh, he worked there until—in the ‘70s. Franklin: Oh, okay. So quite a while then. Moore: Yeah, so from 1950 until—I don’t remember exactly in the ‘70s. Mother finally convinced him that she didn’t want to live here, and they moved to Seattle. Mother—my mother never was satisfied here. She also got a job at Our Lady of Lourdes, the same year that I did. Because my oldest—my youngest brother was like two years old or something, three years old. So I worked the swing shift, and she worked days. So we kind of worked out the remaining—and in between us going, she coming from work and me going to work, there was a lady that we knew that my father had actually helped that family to come to Pasco, too. They were from Louisiana. The Wilkins. I don’t know if you— Franklin: Was it a family that he knew personally? Moore: Yeah. Franklin: Is that how a lot of— Moore: Oh, yes. Franklin: Seems to me that’s how a lot of migration into this area happened, was people tell family and friends and is that— Moore: Right, that’s what happened, because from where we came from in Louisiana, I don’t think there was anyone there that even had heard of Hanford. Didn’t even know that much about Washington state. The thing of it is, you know, I remember the first time I noticed Washington state on something, during the ‘40s, we would get boxes of apples that they gave—I think they called it commodity or something, that the government—it was surplus fruit and stuff that was sent to help the people. Dad helped to distribute that stuff to families. We got a box of apples, and on the apple box it said Washington State. So that was pretty much what I knew about Washington state until I got into school and got to learn more about geography and everything. But yeah, that was my first knowledge of Washington state. We got a box of apples with what the government gave. And they gave things like—I don’t remember getting any other fruit, but I remember the apples, we did get apples. Franklin: In Louisiana where you lived before you came here, where you lived was—was where you lived segregated? Moore: Oh, it was definitely segregated. Franklin: How deep did segregation go there? Did it go all the way to— Moore: [LAUGHTER] About as deep as it could get. We had separate schools. My first school that I went to, the very first I can remember, we lived about probably three miles from—well, it seemed like to me it was a very long way, being a young child. But I would imagine it was about three miles. That’s when we lived in the country. Daddy was working, at that time, he worked at the gin—gin cotton where they baled the cotton. We lived in the country in this little area. We had a house that they built on the plantation. It was a plantation. There was a plot of land just adjacent to the house that my mother would work in that. I remember her out there hoeing and stuff when I was very little. I went to school. It was a church, a one-room church house. And one of our cousins was the teacher. And all the kids were in this one room. The big—she trained the kids that were in the fourth, fifth grade to help the young ones. So that was my first of going to school. I went to school. And believe it or not, we had a horse. His name was Shorty. Mother would put me on the horse and my brother was a baby at that time. She would hold the baby, and I’m sitting behind her on the horse and drive me to school. Franklin: Wow. Moore: And then come pick me up. That was—the part I remember about that was, I was so afraid the first day that I went to school because—the only thing that made me not so afraid, one of our cousins was the teacher. So I did know her, but I didn’t know any of the other children. And we didn’t live close, as I said, children—they were at least three miles away from me. So I didn’t know any of them. And I was so afraid. I just did not want to be there. [LAUGHTER] I was so glad when Mother came and picked me up. But that was the beginning. Then we moved—going back now, I’m kind of going back and forth, because we moved to another area that was close to the sawmill where Daddy worked. Because he’d work at the sawmill and then during the season when they were doing the cotton, he worked at the gin, baled the cotton. And it was other people did live closer to us then, because they had a house that there were several houses in the area where the sawmill was. The people that worked there lived in those houses. And then the school I went to was still another church house thing. So from the first through third grade, I went to a one-room church house school. Franklin: And these were segregated schools? Moore: Oh, of course it was segregated. The teachers were all black. When we moved to town, that’s when I actually got to go to a real school building. Because there was a settlement of black people in that area. There were white people that lived across the highway. The highway ran through. They lived, they had different schools and everything. But in that—that’s when I went to school in a real school and we had several teachers. It was, the high school was there, too. So those were—that part was really good experience, and I remember feeling good about it. I was a very good student and the teachers liked me. I had friends and there were other kids there and everything. When I got in high school, I played basketball. That was nice; we’d go to the little towns to play the other teams and that type of thing. So that, I enjoyed, even though it was segregated, but that’s all we knew of, being segregated. I mean, when you went to the movies, we had to sit upstairs in the balcony. You had to buy your ticket from another window on the side of the building, and then you couldn’t go into the front of the building in the lobby and buy the ticket. You had to—they had a window on the side and you went upstairs to the movie. But we would go, we’d go to the movies every week. [LAUGHTER] You know, every weekend, we went to see—I remember the only thing they played was Western movies. It was like Gene Autry—you probably don’t even know who I’m talking about. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, believe it or not—believe it or not, I do. Yeah. I grew up with my grandmother and she was really into old Westerns. Moore: Yeah. So that was a real treat for us. The tickets cost $0.12 for children. So you should see me trying to save up my pennies during the week so I could go to the movies. Franklin: What about other elements of life in—like the store and restaurants and things? Were those also segregated establishments as well? Moore: Oh, yes. They were segregated here, too, when people first—when my husband first came here, as I said, the restaurant he had down there on Lewis Street, it was sort of segregated. I mean, it was segregated to the point to where black people couldn’t go to other restaurant—they had their own little restaurants and stuff, even over there in east Pasco. Franklin: Were there— Moore: There were a couple restaurants, and they were— Franklin: Were there signs here? Was it as formal as it had been in Louisiana? Or--? Moore: No. No, it was just subtle in the sense that you weren’t going to get served or you just knew that you—you know. There’s certain places you didn’t go. There was no one—no black people living in Kennewick. You couldn’t—even when it got to the point here in Pasco when more and more black people came in, and it sort of opened up, you could rent a house in some parts, as I said, the parts near the railroad track, on this side of the railroad track. But there was no black people living in Kennewick. They wouldn’t rent you a place. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Moore: So that was completely— Franklin: I wanted to ask, we talked a little bit about your coming here, but I wanted to ask, what were your—how did you—did you take a train here? Moore: I took a train. It took five days to come from Louisiana to Pasco. Franklin: What were your first impressions of Pasco when you got here? Moore: Oh, I was upset! Just kind of like my mother. My mother, as I said, she was still in tears. She just hated the place. [LAUGHTER] I didn’t like it. I knew that—well, my dad was working, so we did have a roof over our head, and he was feeding the family and stuff. So it was not that we didn’t have that; we had—in Louisiana, after we moved out of the country, things weren’t too bad. It was segregated, of course, but every—the black part of town had their own restaurants and a couple stores, and they did have a big grocery store there in that part of the town where people go. Only one that I remember, one big sort of big grocery store. But you know, I kind of lost my thought now. Because I’m going back and forth. Is that okay to do that? Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. Moore: Because I’m remembering— Franklin: That’s just the way our memories work and how life is. Moore: And when you compare some things. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: But you were asking about—you said if there was signs here? Franklin: Yeah. If the segregation was as formal, or—if formal’s the right word. Because Louisiana’s segregation, the South, there were signs, it was in the law. Here it seems to have existed but kind of outside the law or informally, and I kind of wanted to just get your memories of that. Moore: Yes. It was here. It was here, you felt it if you were a person of color, you definitely felt it, and you knew that—there were no black people working at any of the restaurants or anything. There may have been some in the kitchen, but I don’t remember because I didn’t go to them anyway. But in my young adulthood, you just didn’t, you didn’t go. When you went to a restaurant—as I said, I don’t remember ever seeing any signs, but there were only certain ones that you could go to. There were no black people working in any of the restaurants where you could see them. As I said, there may have been some in the kitchen, working. But I don’t know. When I got the job at Our Lady of Lourdes, as I recall, there were only three people of color working there, including myself. Franklin: And your mother? Moore: And my mother. But there was two—one lady worked in the kitchen at Our Lady of Lourdes, and then there was one that was—I don’t know if she was an aide or not. She worked there for years and years and years. Franklin: How were you treated by your coworkers there? Moore: Very nice. I never had any problem with anyone. And it was a Catholic hospital, and I was Catholic, and the sisters, as I said, I remember sister Anthony Marie. She was just such a lovely, nice person. Because when she hired me, I didn’t know what she was going to hire me for. I said I was ready for any kind of work. When she hired me, I really knew nothing about working in a hospital. So she taught me pretty much everything. I didn’t even know how to read a thermometer. I remember the first week that she gave me a thermometer and she taught me how to read it, and you know, the first few days, I could not even see the line in it. I would turn it and turn it, and I couldn’t see the line. But once you learned how to do it, it’s so easy. The minute you hold it up, you see the line. But she had a lot of patience and she taught me the terminology and everything that we did. I was soon on the floor, following the other aides at first for about a month, and the nurses. And I learned quickly, so within two months, I knew how to do the different things that they needed me to do. Franklin: Oh, wow. Moore: So it was nice. Franklin: Did you finish high school in Louisiana, or did you finish high school here? Moore: I finished in Louisiana. That was the year we moved, that Mother moved. Franklin: Okay. Moore: So when Mother and the other kids moved, then I came. But I had finished high school there. Franklin: What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to, moving from Louisiana? Moore: [LAUGHTER] As I said, the housing, the places where we had to live when we first came here. Because we had a nice little house in Louisiana, once we had moved to town. Yeah. And so, it was just—and the conditions. It was dirty, the wind blew all the time, sand was everywhere. During those days—and sand would get in; I don’t care how you—everyday, you had to dust, you had to clean in the places where we were living, because sand would get through any little crack. And there were some cracks! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that’s a common story, all around. Yeah, wow. Moore: Yeah, that was the worst part of it. And when I—after I’d started work, actually, within six—well, within six months, I had bought myself a little car, and I didn’t have to walk in the wind blowing the sand. So that was—I was actually pretty satisfied until—I knew I didn’t want to live here, though, and that’s why I moved to Seattle. Franklin: When did you come back to the area from Seattle? Moore: I came back in ’54—moved back in ’54. Franklin: Oh, okay. Moore: So I worked 15 months here and then I went to Seattle and I worked almost two years. Franklin: What was it that brought you back, was it your husband? Moore: Mm-hm. I got married, and as I said, then I was stuck here, because—you know. He lived—he always wanted to have his own business. So the restaurant business and the other—a pool hall, I think he had, it didn’t work out too well. So actually when we got married, he was a laborer, which he had never really done. And he had joined the labor union. He got a job working on Ice Harbor Dam when they were building it. We had one of the houses over there on California Street, which is facing the park over there, now. That park, they actually—that was all—that park was just all open field when we got married. But there was a row of houses. They dismantled and moved all those houses and then set that up as an industrial area, you know, from the area on over to the railroad tracks, I think, is all industrial. Franklin: That was part of the redevelopment? How did you feel about coming back to Pasco? Were you— Moore: Well, when you’re young and you get married, and you’re in love—it was okay. Because my husband was here and so it was okay. Evidently, it had to be okay because I lived here then thirty-something years, raised my kids here, anyway. But when they had divided that area and was redeveloping that area, see, my husband built a fourplex over there on Douglas and—I don’t know if that’s Wehe; I can’t remember if that’s Wehe or not. I don’t even go over there anymore. I mean, I hated east Pasco so bad. [LAUGHTER] Since I’ve been back here, I’ve only been over that way about three times. Franklin: Oh, wow. Why is that? Just— Moore: it was because it was just such a horrible beginning over there, you know? I just didn’t—I didn’t like it. Now, there’s nothing there, really. Now, my husband, see, he developed a business there. He finally went into build a wrecking yard, which is one of the biggest wrecking yards, I guess—it was at that time—right there on Wehe and A Street, on the other side of the railroad track. So that was the business that stuck with him, and the one that he was able to develop, and made it successful, and that’s what we were able to raise our kids with, with that business. Franklin: How would you describe life in east Pasco and the community and what did you do in your spare time? Moore: I didn’t do anything. There was no social life. As I said, I was lucky enough to get a job pretty soon after—within three months, I had a job. So I worked and I came back home. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Any community events that stick out to you? Moore: There was a church that—I’m Catholic, so I’d come to church, but you know it was over here, Saint Patrick’s. Once in a while, I’d visit some of those other churches over there. There was only a couple at that time. But there was really no social life. Franklin: What kind of role did church play in the community? Moore: Oh, it played a big role. It still plays a pretty big role for the people that belong to those churches. They play a pretty big role. The churches, always in the black community, play a large role. Because the churches were there when there was nothing else. It’s not only for their spiritual satisfaction; it’s the social thing, too. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities or traditions or events that people brought with them from the places that they migrated from? Moore: I wasn’t really involved too much—the church, as I say, was the—oh, well, now, you mean back then, or now? Over the years, yes, they brought some things with them. Like they celebrate Juneteenth which came from a Southern celebration. Franklin: Mm-hmm, the end of slavery, right? Moore: Well, when they found out about it was the end. It was June, it took until June, yes. So, yes, that’s one of the celebrations that they have here. Franklin: Because that’s now a pretty big pageant and community event all around the United States. Moore: Right. And it’s because of black people coming from the South and they brought that with them. That would be something, a celebration that they would have every year. And it has caught on. So, yeah, they do have it. And they celebrate Martin Luther King’s birthday and stuff like that. And that’s something, of course—it was people from the South really pushed that to happen. In the small communities. Franklin: Right, right. Moore: You see, when I came here, I had—there was nothing for me to do, except work and I would go to mass on Sundays, and then I worked and I’d go home. And I wasn’t here that long, then. When I came back, and once my children got up, I didn’t work until—I didn’t go back to work until my youngest child was old enough to go to school. So, from the time my first child was born until then, I just took care of home and the children. I got a job at Safeway, which was the second black person to ever work at Safeway. They had a little store downtown Pasco on 4th—or was it on 5th? And I worked there—I got that job in 1963, and I worked there—and I worked part-time; I didn’t work full-time because my children were still young and I didn’t want to be away from them that long. So they were very, very accommodating to me— Franklin: Safeway was? Moore: Safeway. Because I made arrangements with them that during the summer, they would hire a student to work in my place so I could stay home with my children. I didn’t want them all summer without having me there. So, Safeway did that, and I worked with Safeway for 12 years. Franklin: Ah. You said you were the second— Moore: I was the second black person to work there. The first black woman, she’s still here, Doris—I can’t remember Doris’ last name now. But they moved her to one of the stores, I think it was either Kennewick or Richland, that she went to work over there and they hired me in Pasco. Franklin: Where was the Safeway located in Pasco, was it in east Pasco, or was it— Moore: It was on 5th—no, it was on 5th and Clark, I think. Yeah. It’s where that—it’s a bank there now, used to be a bank. I haven’t been over there since I’ve been back now. Franklin: Hmm, I don’t know if I’ve been over there either. Moore: Yeah. But it was on 5th and Clark. Franklin: Were you treated fairly by the management and the patrons? Or— Moore: Well, the management was fine. The patrons, when I first, I would say the first week or the first two weeks I was in there, they would line up in the other checkstand. We had three—did we have three checkstands or two? We only had two checkstands, I think. It was a small store. And they would line up in the other stand and I’m just standing there at my checkstand, because—and pretty soon, they realized that, oh, yeah, if I can go through that checkstand, I can check out real quick and I’m gone. [LAUGHTER] So it took people about three weeks or two weeks to realize that, okay, it doesn’t make sense for me to stand over here in this line when I can go on through the checkstand. And they did. And I was a good checker. I learned to be a very good checker. At that time, it wasn’t like scanning now, you scan through; we had to memorize the prices, and you keyed everything in, you subtotaled, you put the tax in and totaled, and you had to count out their change to them, because there was no automatic telling you how much change that was coming back and everything. Well, I’ve always been a real fast learner, so, as I said, within a month, I was a real good checker. I worked twelve years there. A couple times, I went out—they sent me out to Richland, but after that—my kids were teenagers then, and I worked in the Richland store, out there. But I had no problems with people, because I treated everyone the same, I was courteous. At that time, we had to be nice and courteous when you worked in a store or something. Now people will check you out and won’t even speak to you. You know, they scan the groceries across the thing and never even say a word to you sometimes. I was just very nice and courteous to people; I treated everyone the same. So, it worked out fine. I actually enjoyed working at that store. I did, I had no problems. And I never did—at that time, the employment office was next-door to Safeway downtown. There was an employment office down there. That’s when they had really started to hire people of color, minorities and blacks, out at Hanford. I mean, other than just doing the labor work and stuff like that. So I was asked to take a test and go out to Hanford to work, and I refused, because I didn’t want to be away from my children that much. See, that was my thing. I worked. My family was more important to me than my job, really. And so I just—I didn’t want to put in full-time work and having to travel out there and everything to work. So I never—that was one of the reasons I never did go. Several of my friends did, and they were trained to do clerical work and different things like that. So they’d opened up to where they were actually training people to— Franklin: Around what time was that? Moore: That must have been, let me see, I have to think back here. Oh, gosh. That had to be like in the late ‘70s? Franklin: Oh, okay. Moore: I think it was like in the middle to late ‘70s and early ‘80s when quite a few people that I knew went out to work. During the time my kids were growing up, I did volunteer work. My kids all went to St. Patrick’s through to the ninth grade. I did volunteer work there and of course a cub scout leader and PTA and all that stuff. So I was involved in that type thing. Then my children, when they got into high school, I was appointed my Governor Evans to serve on the Washington State Women’s Council. I did that for about almost three years. That was during the time when we worked for the equal rights amendment and different things like that. I had always wanted to go back to school. I went to college, CBC, and at that time, I quit work for two years and I went to CBC. And then I got my two-year degree and I decided I wanted to go ahead and get my bachelor’s. I did that through programs that were brought down from Eastern Washington. And I went back—oh, after that time—I’m trying to keep this in the right way, now. I was still working for—oh, when we had the big problem in the school district where they reassigned the high school principal which had been there for years and years and the town just went crazy and recalled the school board that was the school board at that time. And they recalled the whole school board. Franklin: What was that over? Moore: It was over not treating minority kids right at the high school. And all the schools, really. But the high school is where they had the biggest problem. That was during the time when the civil rights movement was everywhere and going on. So that year, they had recruited a black music teacher that taught at the junior high school, and his wife was appointed—there was an opening on the school board, and she was appointed to serve on the school board. So, she actually saw what was happening, how the black students were treated at the high school, and how if there was a disagreement between a white student and a black student, the black student wound up getting suspended; the white student didn’t. Regardless of who started it and what it was about. And different things like that; it was just stuff going on. She and the other school board members started trying to do something about that, and bring about some equal treatments, wanting— And the community—and so they thought the best thing to do was to reassign the principal that had been there for years and that was his little kingdom and he could do whatever he wanted to do. When they reassigned him to another job, he refused it, and said he was treated unfairly and that type of thing. He had his group of people that sided with him, and then the group of people that wanted to change things in the community. So the school board was recalled. I mean, they just recalled that whole school board. They had also hired—while that school board was in together, and after they had started trying to make some changes—at that time, I really wasn’t following it too much until they appointed—a new superintendent came in, a young man from—I don’t remember where he was from—and he had brought in a group of people that was progressive, that wanted to make changes and stuff like that. So anyway the school board was recalled and the principal decided he wasn’t going to take the job that they had offered him. He thought he could make them change and get his way. I was one of the people that was appointed to be on the temporary—on the school board until—it was three of us, three people appointed to serve on the school board. One was a farmer from out in the blocks, and another one was a guy that worked at Hanford. So the three of us had to come in and serve on the school board and it was a learning experience for all three of us. I mean, we had not had that kind of experience. It was really some trying times going on. They wanted to force us to hire the principal back at high school. And we said, no, we weren’t going to do that. Our job was to appoint two other people; it was a five-member board, and our job was to appoint two other people to make up the board, and we did. We appointed a minister that was a minister in this part of Pasco, and then a businessman, too. So I was the only minority person on the board. I had to really be on my mark. I mean, I had to really learn as fast as I could about what was going—all three of us did—I mean, all of us did, really. To appoint the two other people, we had to be really careful who we appointed, because we had to be people that were open-minded and wanted to carry the school district forward instead of falling back into that same type of mentality that was before. So, it was very, very difficult. We would have—when we’d have the first six months or the first year, the levy failed, because people were all upset and everything. So the levy would fail and they cut out a lot of the good programs, I mean enhancement-type programs, because they levy failed. My son was in high school. At that time, he was in the tenth grade, coming out of St. Pat’s. He was on the debate team. That was canceled. And he was so upset, he lost interest in school. So that was a personal problem for me. [LAUGHTER] Trying to get him, you know, so he wasn’t so upset about something that he really enjoyed doing. He was a very good debater, and that didn’t work. But getting back to the big problem, the school board problem, we had to really make up our mind what way we were really going to go with this. Three of us, we had to appoint two other people, which we did, the people that we picked, we thought they were people that would be open-minded. And at that time, also, they had very few, I think maybe there were three black teachers in the whole district. So it was a real big problem. I remember, our school board meetings would be so full, we had to move them to the auditorium at the grade school, McGee. No, was McGee over there? I think it was. In order to have room for everybody. And they were rowdy, and they brought cameras, and they brought recorders and everything, so they could record every word that we said in the meeting. How long—excuse me, I’m going to ask you a question. How long have you been around? Were you around during that time? You were there, so you know what happened. Tom Hungate: I was over in Kennewick. Moore: You were in Kennewick. I know you were, but I mean, the Tri-City Herald, every day there was a big article in the paper about everything, and people were making threats. I mean, I had phone calls where they’d threaten me that I’d better vote to hire back the principal that had been there, or either—whatever. So we had to make up our mind what we were going to do. I had to really be on top of them when it came to choosing the other two people that was going to be on that board. Because the two guys that were on the board, as I said, they were both very good—they were good people, I liked them. The three of us kind of clicked. But we had to be careful who we appointed. Several times, I had to really just speak up and say, no, that person is not going to work, because of research I had done. I had to do research! The other two guys, they weren’t thinking so—they had never been exposed to segregation or anything. I mean, these are two people who didn’t know where I was coming from. I had to speak up and let them know what was really happening. It worked out, and we had the other two people appointed, and we decided that we would offer this principal that had refused to—he started driving a potato truck to make people feel sorry for him, you know, the ones who were on his side. So they’d march around, we’d have people marching in front of the school district office and everything when we were in there having meetings. That was really something. Franklin: Sounds like a real circus. Moore: But within a year, we also had to hire—we had to hire a new superintendent, because he—that was all going on, so he decided it was best for him to leave and go somewhere else. So that was another big problem of hiring the right person. We had to interview all these people for superintendent, and we had to interview for people to fill in the place as the principal. We went through two people we hired, and one of them stayed for a year, and he was gone. He just couldn’t take it. [LAUGHTER] Because the high school was just—many of the teachers had been there for years, too. And they were used to what had been going on before. So that was difficult. We finally, within a year-and-a-half, the levy—we got the next levy passed. That was the beginning of people trying, really getting together and doing what they needed to do. And it worked out. That was a real learning experience for me. I learned more in—I served on the board for three years. That was worth a college degree. Franklin: The experience? Moore: The experience was, it really was. Franklin: Do you remember the name of the first—the principal that had been reassigned, and what happened to him? Moore: You know, I don’t. Franklin: Okay. Moore: I’m 85, okay? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I understand. Moore: I really don’t remember his name. Franklin: Does the name, last name Ferrari, does that ring a bell? Moore: No, that wasn’t it. Franklin: Okay. Moore: No, it wasn’t. Franklin: In preparation for this project, I went and did some research and looked through some of the records from the Congress of Racial Equality branch that was here in the Tri-Cities, the CORE movement, and they had mentioned this—the records were from the ‘60s to the early ‘70s. They mentioned this—what was going on in Pasco, at Pasco High School, and that there had been issues with the principal, that there had been issues with some students, that there was a fight between some white girls and black girls. Moore: Well, that—yeah, that had started happening quite often, when everyone was all upset and everything like that. You know how teenagers act out? So there was quite a bit of that that would go on. You know, to bring order to all of that, it was really—it was something. Franklin: I bet, I bet. Moore: It really was. Thank goodness we did—we got things in pretty good shape. Franklin: Yeah. Thank you. I had taken a lot of notes about that, but I want to go back through that material when I get back. That should be a—it seems a good part of my research. Moore: Well, I’m going to tell you, I have to say this about the Tri-City Herald. They were really biased in some of the stuff they printed. Franklin: Okay, I’ll look for that. Biased against who, or for who? Moore: They were biased against—well, I felt they like they were biased against the new school board in a sense, for what we were trying to do. Because it was overwhelmingly on that other side for a while. I mean, we had to work really hard to turn things around. We really did. And we had to do it in a way where we were trying to make everyone feel good about what was happening, you know? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: So it was a very difficult job. Franklin: Right, you needed that community buy-in. Moore: Yes, you definitely did. Franklin: And community support. Moore: But it didn’t take—as I said, within two years, we had it so that the community was behind us—the majority of the community. There’s still those holdouts that were there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, there will always be a few. How long did you serve on the school board? Moore: I served on it three years. Franklin: Okay, so you passed the reins when things had— Moore: Well, I was appointed, at first, for one year. Because they’re staggered, so when we were appointed, I was appointed for one year. And then I was elected and served the next two years. And I would have gone on, but my husband started complaining I was away from home a lot. He was used to me being at home taking care of things. [LAUGHTER] But my kids were in high school and everything, and they were old enough to where I felt like I could go ahead. And it was such an important thing, I felt so obligated. I had to follow through with it. I had to try to help things to be better than what they were. Franklin: Do you feel like things did end up being better? Do you feel like you made progress there? Moore: I think we made progress, yes. I think we made a lot of progress. We also recruited a lot of black teachers, smart people, some of them wound up being—at least three or four of them wound up being principals of schools here and then went on to other places. Carl Peterson was one that we recruited. He was one of the assistant superintendents that had been here, the group that had resigned and went on at the beginning of—after that first year of going through all that turmoil. He was recruited to the Tacoma area, and he—I mean, he’s retired now, but he went on to build two schools there. So when he was recruited to first go over there, he was principal of the school for one year, and then they assigned him to build a school. And then after he was there two years, they wanted him to build another school, be in charge of building and setting it up. So when we recruited—but that was only because we were on that—I was on that schoolboard. I was on that schoolboard—I was the cause of them celebrating Black History Month. Okay, I have to say this. After I was on the schoolboard, I was also then hired to work in the school district. So I worked as a community liaison person in the school district until I left here and moved to Seattle. But I helped to organize, and all the time trying to recruit very good black people to fill in some of the teaching positions, to have some black aides in the school district, which they didn’t have any before. So I did a lot of that type of thing. Which helped, because then you had people that could come in with some other ideas. Here’s the thing I find about—a lot of people do things out of ignorance, just because they don’t know, and they haven’t been exposed to minorities. And once they’re exposed to minority people that’s educated and interesting, they change their mind about a lot of their feelings. It opens them up. So, anyway, I thought recruiting and having black teachers in the district and stuff like that really helped a lot of people. And it helped to make things different. Franklin: And it helped to reflect the population, too. Moore: Right, yes, it did. Of course the black population anymore is very, very small. Because I think most—many of the people just moved away. Their children did. Their children didn’t stay here. At one time, I think we had about, what, 5% of the population in the school district was black. Now, I think it’s about three. I’m not sure, but I think it’s about three. But at that time, see, when I first came here, there were no minorities hardly at all. Now we have a lot of Mexicans, too, in the school district. At that time, there wasn’t. So all of that has helped to just—helped the area grow and the school districts to change their mind about the way they were doing certain things. So, I think it’s better. I’m not—I’ve been away from here, though, like I said, I moved. So I just came back, and I haven’t been involved. I’m too old now to be involved with stuff. And then, plus, I’m sick. But I think we did a lot of good. And I worked a lot on the different charitable organizations that were here. I served on the boards of probably seven of them and brought in some awareness. That helped, too, because all the charitable—many of the charitable organizations had no minority representation. And so, that was one of the things that I did. I helped them to realize how important it was to have that type of input. When I was gone, they would still have the input. So that was my idea of trying to do that. And I think that helped a lot. I served on the United Way board for years. Anyway, I tried to do my share of working in the community. Franklin: It sounds like you really did. I mean, that’s wonderful. Moore: I actually enjoyed it. You know, I enjoyed meeting people, I enjoyed bringing about some awareness. And you know what I would say is, I can’t speak for everybody. I can’t—well, it finally got so I had to turn down different things that I was asked to do because it was too much. People were acting as if I was a spokesman for the whole black community, and I had to just let that—that couldn’t be. I’m not a spokesman for them. So it was—I enjoyed that part of my life, because I was involved with community, and we got some really good things done. I didn’t have anything to do, much, with employment-type things that happened. I served on the planning board for the skills center that opened in Kennewick. I don’t know what it’s called now. Franklin: Is it Tri-Tech? Moore: Probably that is, the skills center? Franklin: Tri-Tech Skills Center? Moore: Yeah. Franklin: They have like a radio station, and— Moore: Well, they opened up with a lot of different beginning skill things that went on there. Training for carpentry, auto mechanics, what, I think they had a beauty school, radio-type thing, a lot of different things that the high school kids could be exposed to. Franklin: Great. Moore: So, you know, those were things that I thought, I was glad to serve on those commissions and things, to try to help them plan that. Franklin: Great. I wanted to ask you, were there opportunities available here in the Tri-Cities that were not available where you or your parents came from? Moore: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it came to be, as more people came in. I think maybe, back in the late ‘40s and stuff like that, that’s when minorities started coming here to work. But Hanford was the thing that opened it up to get more people in. As that happened, then things grew to where people—there were opportunities. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Moore: Oh, I think so. You said where was it? Here, in this area, yes, they were. Franklin: In what ways were they? Moore: It was just very subtle. I think a lot of it was very subtle. I mean, I went to—oh, I tried out a lot of things. I went to put my application in at a lot of different places. And I knew it was just thrown in the wastebasket when I left. [LAUGHTER] You know, I mean, but that’s the way it was. They didn’t turn you down. Franklin: Yeah, you can laugh at it now, but— Moore: Yeah, they didn’t turn you down and say, we’re not going to take your application. That’s what they would have done where I came from. They’d say, well, you’re not—you can’t be hired here, you’re not going to work, we’re not taking your application. They would take the applications, but nothing ever happened with it. Franklin: Right, they’d smile and take it and then probably— Moore: Yeah, right. I don’t ever remember anyone being rude or anything like that. The only rudeness, and that wasn’t really in this area, that must have been in 19—let me see, what year was that, maybe ’78? We never got a chance to do any vacation or anything, but we did decide that year we were going to go camping, when the kids were big enough to where they could enjoy going camping. My husband and I, we had a trailer that we hooked up onto our car and we were going camping, we were going to go up into Montana. And so the only trouble, the only rudeness we ran into, we stopped in Ritzville. I think it’s Ritzville, between here and—yeah. We stopped there and we went in the restaurant, and we had food, and when we came out, my daughter, which was four, about four years old, she said, Mom, I need to go to the restroom. I said, okay, so there was a service station right there, and I said, we can go here, then. Because my husband and the boys were still in the restaurant. And I went, and it was locked. I asked if I could have the key, and he said, no. It’s broken. It’s out of order. So as we were standing there waiting for my husband to come out, because there was another service one across the street, and I thought, well, we’ll just go across the street over there and go. And we were standing there waiting, and I saw other people come and go in the restroom. So when my husband came out, I said, you know, we asked to use that restroom, and he said it was out of order. But other people are going there. And my husband went over and said to him, oh, I see your restroom, you got it fixed, huh? And the—oh, that man just went all to pieces, started yelling at Tom and stuff like that. And then the ones across the street said, hey, man, are you having any trouble over there, you need help? And I caught my husband’s arm, I said, don’t argue with him, let’s just go. Just go. But, you know, if he had continued, in my mind, I thought, they’d probably beat him up, throw him in jail. And so that was the only thing I’d ever had that kind of trouble with. So when I came back, I just couldn’t let it go. I had to write a letter about it. I wrote a letter to the Tri-City Herald saying how we’d been treated there. I didn’t think any more about it. It was printed. And then in a few weeks—I was working at Safeway then. That’s right, it was in the ‘60s, must have been in the late ‘60s. I had just started working at Safeway, and there was—people contacted me that worked for, what, the civil rights or something. But it was a white woman that came and interviewed me, and she asked me about it, and I told her what happened. She said, well—at that time, we lived over there near the highway on Lewis Street. We had bought a house over there. It was right on Lewis Street. She said to me, be careful. You know, someone may decide that they may do something—hurt you or something about this. I hadn’t really thought of it in that manner. But that was disconcerting, to have someone come and say that to me. But she came to find out, to see what they could do, if they could bring charges or something against them. Then, about a week later, it was—was it Texaco? I think it was a Texaco station, representatives from the Texaco station came to my work at the Safeway to interview me. And I just told them what had happened, and I said they were so rude, and all I wanted to do was take my daughter to the bathroom, and I told them what happened. I did get a letter of apology from the company after that. See, but that’s the kind of things that happened, the kind of things that people go through that went through and may still go through in some places, I don’t know. But I mean, it wasn’t anything that we were doing wrong, it’s just that, I guess Ritzville was one of those places they didn’t see very many black people. And they thought the restroom at the service station, you couldn’t use it. That was the idea. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: So when you ask about that type of thing, it was sometime very real. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Moore: You know? Franklin: That’s an important story to tell, because I think it’s—for folks that don’t experience that, it’s hard to imagine and I think people need to hear about things like that, because it happens. Moore: It happens. And as I said, something bad could have happened back there. And I just knew it, and I just—I just said, come on, let’s go. Let’s just go! Because the man that was talking to him had one of those big wrenches—I don’t know what you call it—in his hand. I imagine, if my husband had kept arguing with him, he may have decided to hit him. Franklin: Right. Moore: You know? And if that had’ve happened, no telling what would have happened. Franklin: Yeah, that would’ve been bad. Moore: That would’ve been bad. Franklin: I wanted to—your father participated in Hanford’s early Cold War history. I wanted to ask, what did you learn or know about the prior history of African Americans at Hanford during the Manhattan Project, and from your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life, and civil rights? Moore: Well, I think at the beginning, they did most of the dirty work. They were put into areas—and as I said, no one understood; it wasn’t explained to people what they were really getting into. I think the people that were in charge didn’t really understand themselves. They didn’t know the ramifications of what it could turn out to be. So, yeah. But I think most of the black people—it was later on that I think blacks were hired in more—that they recruited people with more education, people that had other skills and stuff. But I think, my feeling is that most of the black people were hired at first, they did the labor work, the cleanups, the things like that. You know, it’s a lot of cancer in this area. I’ve been diagnosed with myeloma since I’ve been back here. I probably had it for—I remember about 30 years ago, actually a doctor when I went in for my regular checkup, and I was a very healthy person; I never was ill—but just doing my annual checkup, and he said to me, your white cells are kind of out of whack. And so, of course, I didn’t know what that meant, and he did several tests. I went to him three times. Right here in Pasco. And I went to him three different times, and he finally told me, well, I’ve done everything. I’ve done run all these tests and I don’t see anything wrong with you. White cells is to help combat any kind of infection or anything, but you don’t have any. He said, you’re healthy. I don’t see anything wrong with you and the test doesn’t prove that there is. So, I don’t know anything to do about it, except just occasionally have a checkup. So it went on for years, and I never had any problems, so when I’d have my annual, no one else ever said anything about it, and it kind of just slipped my mind. Okay, I got sick in California and I was having all this pain, all this pain, and I didn’t know what it was. My primary doctor was a very good doctor. She sent me to all these specialists, and they did tests, and they did all these things, and they kept saying, well, we don’t see anything wrong with you! You’re in good health. I was just, I mean, before then, I was such an active person. I’ve always been active. I was going to exercise classes three times a week, I took up ballroom dancing, I was dancing twice a week. No sickness except the blood pressure. I had high blood pressure and taking medication for that. But I wasn’t having any pain or anything. And I went to all these doctors; they all did every test you could think of, and they would say to me, well, I don’t see anything wrong with you. There’s not anything we can do for you. So, then, when I started to getting so weak—and that’s when I said—my son just kind of insisted that he didn’t like me being there by myself. It took 12 different doctors before I got a diagnosis. I just got a diagnosis last year, here. My primary doctor here really paid attention to when I had my blood work done, paid attention to what was going on with my white cells and sent me to an oncologist. He went through my medical records and everything and there he said, I think I know what’s wrong, but I’m going to have to do two more tests to be able to diagnose it. So, he did a bone marrow exam and did complete skeletal scan. And so it’s multiple myeloma. So, see, it’s something that could be in your body for years and years and years and then finally show up. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moore: But then that made me think about my dad coming home saying, well, they had to hose us down today. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. We talked quite a bit about civil rights activities in Hanford and Tri-Cities and you mentioned your work on the school board. Were there any other major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Moore: Well, let’s see. I don’t know about Hanford, because I never worked there, you see. I never did work out there. Franklin: Right. Moore: I just knew it from my friends that worked out there and my dad that worked out there. But— Franklin: What about here in the Tri-Cities? Moore: Oh, in the Tri-Cities, major—well, as I said, it was just kind of subtle. You knew it was there and there were things that happened that you didn’t feel you could get hired by certain things because—Hanford actually opened it up for people to be hired, for minorities to be hired, because otherwise there wasn’t—my stepdaughter was the first person of color to be hired at a bank here. It just hadn’t—it wasn’t happening. They weren’t hiring people there. But she was hired. So I think the work, it just evolved after everything else surrounding we were doing—things had opened up in other places and stuff, and bringing in new people, people from all over the world have come here. I think that has helped a lot. Franklin: What action was being taken to address these issues in unemployment and in living, and African Americans being able to live outside east Pasco? How did that situation— Moore: Well, you know, different laws and stuff were passed, too. I’ve always thought that Washington State was—actually, when you think about it, I think it’s a very good state that tried to be fair. As more and more minorities came in here, I think—there was other people coming, too, so it was people with—more progressive-type people. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights effort here at Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Moore: Well, I don’t know, I’m sure it had a big influence. It had a big influence. It was kind of slow catching on, but it had a big influence. Franklin: From your perspective and experience, what was different about civil rights efforts here? Moore: Well, oh, let’s see. They started hiring more people and recruiting minority people to come in and work— [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: I think, and then we’ll wrap up, because, yeah, it’s been a long interview. It’s been a great interview. A long interview is always a good interview. Moore: Well, when you edit it and everything, it’ll be okay. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. So, I wanted to ask, and these—Tom gave me a couple great questions here. I wanted to ask, why were you appointed to be on the school board? Who reached out to you and why? Because you would’ve been a stay-at-home mom at the time, right? Moore: Well, no. Well, I think it was because there weren’t very many black people in the community that was—well, I wasn’t—see, even when I was a mom, I still did things with the schools. Franklin: Oh, okay, yeah. Moore: So I was active in that. And I was outspoken. [LAUGHTER] That’s kind of one of the things. I was always—I wasn’t afraid to give my opinion about anything, so I think that’s probably what happened. But I’m trying to think of who—it was this other black lady that had—oh, it was Virgie Robinson, that’s who it was. She worked for the school district-- Franklin: Yes. Moore: --at that time. She said to me, they’re looking for someone to have minority representation on the Washington State Women’s Council, from this area. And she said, I was telling them about you. So she told somebody that was connected; I don’t know. They called me and asked me if I would be interested in serving on it, and I said, yes, I would. So that was a good experience. That was for the—you know. That was before we had equal rights here in Washington State. So I served on that for, what, two years, I believe it was. Governor Evans was the one that appointed me, and then after then, I guess I might have served on it more than two years, yeah. Franklin: That’s great. Moore: You know, I was being—I’d have to go to like Seattle and Olympia sometimes when they’d have meetings over there and that type of thing. Franklin: Another question, earlier on you mentioned that your grandma, who had come out here, went back to Louisiana. And why? Why’d she do that? Moore: Well—oh. Oh, I told you about—I think I said that she had met this man, Mr. Jones, she married him. And they split up. And she just decided she didn’t want to be here, out here. So she moved back to Louisiana. Now, that was before my father moved out here. See, that was a couple years before he moved out here. Franklin: Gotcha, okay. Moore: Then after I was here, and married and everything, I sent for her. So I had her here with me. Franklin: Oh, so she came back out. Moore: She came back with me for—and she stayed with me for—I fixed her a little place, and she stayed with us for about three years. And then her daughter, my aunt, in Tacoma, she went over to live with them, and she passed over there. Franklin: Gotcha, okay. That makes sense. Moore: My grandmother was a very—I think she was kind of my hero. Because she was not afraid to just get out and do new things. She’s a very independent woman. Yeah. I learned a lot from her. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really wonderful. How were opportunities different for your children here in Tri-Cities than had been for you in Louisiana? Moore: Oh, my goodness. It was a lot of difference. Oh, yes. I mean, it’s so different. By the time my children graduated, things had changed a lot. They had the opportunities were there. You just had to take advantage of it. Yeah, oh, yes. Just like daylight and dark. When I went—when I graduated from high school in Louisiana, I wanted to go to college, but of course we had no money to go to college. The only way I could’ve gone, I would’ve had to—they had 4-H. I belonged to the 4-H club. I don’t know if you know what that is. Franklin: I was also in 4-H. Moore: Oh, you were in 4-H? Franklin: I grew up in a farm, yeah. Moore: Oh, okay, 4-H Club. So, they had those clubs and they had scholarships. You could get a scholarship, but you had to go into farming stuff. Agricultural-type thing. And that was not for me. I had no—I was in the club in high school, but it was just a social for me. I just wanted to be with the other kids. I had no idea about staying on a farm and doing—so I passed that up. I didn’t want to do it. The only other opportunity was to go into the service, which some kids did. I just thought, no, that’s not for me, either. You know, they’d go into service and then you’d have to go off to college. Most of the only opportunities was what they trained for. I know a lot of the boys, they actually went and they took agricultural as their—that was their major, that’s what they majored in. And then there was teaching, you could either get to be a teacher, you know, and I didn’t really want to be a teacher. So, I actually had no opportunity—I was so glad when my dad left and came and I had a chance to leave there. What I wanted to do was go into business. I did actually start business school here, but I had to work, so that kind of went out the window. But I always wanted to go to college. And I did it. My kids, my youngest child was a senior the year I went back to school. Franklin: Oh, wow. And did all your kids go to college as well? Moore: No, they didn’t. My son that lives here, he worked with his dad and he still runs the business, Tommy’s Steel and Salvage in east Pasco. He started working with his dad when he was like 12 years old down there. So he went to CBC for one year, and then he was still—he worked with his dad everyday. Franklin: That’s Leonard, right? Moore: Leonard, yeah! Franklin: You’re talking about Leonard? Moore: Yeah, Leonard. So that’s what he went into. My other son went to Western for one year, and it was just—he couldn’t get a job, and we just didn’t have—it hadn’t been long—my husband had just started the business; we just didn’t have the money, and he didn’t. So then he came back home and he got into the Electricians’ apprentice program. So he went through that. He worked out at Hanford for a little bit, but he said, Mom, I don’t like it out there. I just don’t want to work out at Hanford. Because he realized the dangers of them crawling around in these places. So he went to—where did he go next? He went to Colorado and he worked there for a while, and then he wound up in California. He got a job at the University of California there, as an electrician. He worked his way up to management and he took classes the whole time he was there so he could get his certificates and everything for management. So that’s what he does now, and he does, as I said, now he’s working at San Jose State, and he’s the building—I can’t remember exactly what it’s called, but what he does is he’s in charge of the building and remodeling at the school, whatever they do there. So that’s what he went into. And my daughter was a model and she actually was the first black Miss Tri-Cities. Franklin: Oh, wow. Moore: She wound up in Chicago and she married an attorney and she had modeled for several years, she traveled to Europe and places like that. And then she came back, as I said, and she lived in Chicago. And she got married and they have twin boys that will be 16 years old this year. And she’s been a stay-at-home mom. [LAUGHTER] She decided she didn’t want to—she stayed at home and raised her kids. Franklin: Yeah. So my last question is, is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights, and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Moore: No. Well, I’ve always wanted to take advantage of opportunities, and I tried to get my kids to do that, too, look for opportunities that’s out there. After they opened up, well, you had some opportunities. We didn’t have that much at first. But I felt like my kids had opportunities, and they didn’t always take advantage of what I wanted them to do, but they did okay. They all doing fine. I actually enjoyed working with the school district, because I was able to be in contact with young people, to try to encourage them, and that’s not an easy job sometimes. Franklin: No, it’s not. Moore: I mean, they’ll look at you, and it just goes in one ear and out the other. But that always has been my goal, to try to encourage people of color that I was around—or anybody, actually—because I’ve worked where there are no minorities at all. Many of my jobs have been that way. It doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t matter to me about that, because I just love to see young people try to do the best they can do, and take advantage of the things that are there for them. It really hurts when you see many of them don’t do that, or don’t even try. I just—it’s upsetting. Franklin: Well, great, Ellenor, thank you so much for taking the time to interview with us today. It was a wonderful interview. Moore: Well, I thank you for coming. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellenor Moore Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Migration Civil rights Civil rights movements Discrimination Racism Description An account of the resource Ellenor Moore moved to Pasco, Washington in 1950 as a teenager. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/21/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff98c16ca3e81eec79d4de278d394d717.jpg 750ec2ddf7b8fc9ea3033e0678630c5c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb4f533ace02f0c661ea46bbf9868ad00.mp4 08f5360560e7df16a4176fc6a54b87c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elsa & Trudy Description An account of the resource An interview with Elsa & Trudy conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2046a01b468d5806f2eeb9ac74c631f3.jpg 570a52b3830287cda5b3b79dc4b071fd https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6044cabd932f17cf7e979c559097da63.mp4 707021a797b556cd2c395a8fc8f9fd0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arata, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emil, Leitz Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Leitz_Emil Man one: Whenever you're ready. Laura Arata: We’re ready to go? Man one: Yeah, yup. Arata: Okay. So if we just start off, if I could have you say your name, and then spell your last name for us. Emil Leitz: Emil E. Leitz, the last name spelled, L-E-I-T-Z. Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. The date is November 7th, 2013, already, somehow. So I wonder if we could start just by having you tell us a little bit about how you come to Hanford, when you arrived here, so what your initial experience was like? Leitz: Okay, I came to Hanford after I served my tour of duty during the Korean War. And I had worked for GE prior to going in the service, and they asked me where I would like to go back to work for them. And so I told them I would like to go the Northwest, and they said, well, Hanford is a place where we have some jobs. We'd be glad to place you there. So I came to Hanford. My wife and I were married at the time. We had one child. Hanford, to me, going first on the job, it was kind of old time I'd say. The ride to the area was by bus, but the buses were not air conditioned. They were, in the winter, very cold because the heaters were not very adequate. The assignment to the C Reactor was my choice after I had been here for a while. There were some other engineers who came in when I did. We each went our own ways. The trip, I mentioned, was by bus, but as also, we had to take our own lunches. We didn't have eating—preparation for food out in the areas. I was in the research and development organization as an engineer trying to, at that time, improve both safety and production. Something that was really, really emphasized, the importance for safety here at Hanford. And at that time, they were also wanting to increase production because we were in the big race with Russia to whoever could make the most bombs supposedly was going to be the winner of this Cold War. Well, after I worked for—well, the first assignment I had really at C Reactor was they were trying out a new fuel element, and that would cool the fuel both internal and external to the fuel. And it took a special spacer on the end to mix them. Now a spacer is something that positions the fuel in the reactor. And it would take a special one of these spacers to mix the fuel between the inner and outer cooling channels on the fuel. And it so happened that at C Reactor, once they got their reactor up and charged it, they couldn't get the reactor to run. We had every process tube, 2,003 of them--were monitored by a flow monitor. And that flow monitor, if the pressure exceeded certain limits, it would automatically shut the reactor down. And it just kept shutting the reactor down. And the plant manager, he wanted to abort the whole program. He says, it's common to all of the tubes, we just can't operate the reactors, so the fuel is a failure. And they asked me my opinion, and I said, it could very well be that we only have a very few tubes mischarged without that mixer spacer. Because I had them run some tests that showed that if that mixer spacer's in there, the pressure would be oscillating between the tube. And we couldn't identify at that time which particular tube was causing the problem. So that's what I told my management, and then two days later, the plant manager came into me, he was just livid. He said, you told the people that I was making a mistake in charging the reactor, that I was not controlling it adequately. And he said, I'm going to get your ass. That's just what he said. And I'm going to check every process tube in that reactor, and prove that you’re wrong. Well, they checked them, and they had seven process tubes mischarged. They corrected the charge, the reactor went up—operated perfectly. Never had another scram, so I didn't hear anything more from that manager. So it was kind of interesting point of view about my first assignment, and I got that kind of pressure from some of the managers. Arata: How long did that take, to test that many process tubes? Leitz: Oh, to load the reactor probably took six months or so. Because they would do, as the field became ripe, the old field became ripe--or ready for discharge--they would discharge, it was a couple hundred tubes, and then put new ones in. So that took probably two, three charges ‘til they—when they got--And I don't know when the problem first occurred to having these inadvertent scrams, but when I got there, they were ready to abort the load. And would have really reduced—they had to increase the flow into the reactor, and they could not really get full utilization. Those reactors originally were built for 200 megawatts—I think that's what it was--and they were all operating up around 2,000 then after they got these new fuel elements in and the new flow up. So ten times the power that they originally designed for. So there were really some big improvements. Along with this going on, it was in 1957 in Richland, they were going to sell the homes. They made a big—they were going to get out of the business of having houses, and a lot of the people were pretty leery. Hey, they're going to be shutting this down because most of them knew, oh yeah, we've got plenty of weapons. We really don't need all this plutonium for weapons. And so some people were very hesitant. They offered the homes at 75% of the appraised value of the house if you didn't want the buy-back clause. And if you paid full price, the government would promise to buy it back if something would happen that there was a real economic downturn in Richland. And I found this one guy who says, he was in no way ever going to invest in his buying a house in Richland. And I said, okay. A ranch house is appraised at $10,000, if you buy one, I'll pay you $8,500 for it. So it's appraised at $10,000, and I said, I'd pay you at $8,500. And you buy them in the no buy-back clause, and so that's how I bought my first house. I had been grinning. I couldn't get into one of the government houses, and they were about half the rent I had to pay in a commercial housing organization, which that time was warehousing. So that's kind of an interesting thing as far as living here in Richland goes. People are always a little bit leery about how long could they really want to continue to run those reactors. Arata: All right. Leitz: So the success there at C Reactor--and I was then reassigned to process standards and other jobs. And one night I wanted to start up when they had the approval to build the N Reactor, it was about 1962. I had been here, oh, seven years. They selected me to be what they called the startup engineer for the N Reactor. They had three tests. They had the N1s, which was for physics testing. You had the N2 and N3. The N2 just brought the reactor up in enough power that it could supply its own power for its turbines, and they could back off the boiler. They have a big boiler plant that would generate the steam that normally could drive the turbines. And then they would bootstrap it up. You'd get enough steam, and you'd start these big turbines up, and then you go on up in power. N Reactor was designed for 4,000 megawatts, so I had the job of designing—Now it was unique to any other reactor in the world, and a lot of people say, that reactor just isn't going to run. It's too complicated. It had only 1,000 process tubes, but it also was on recirculation, and no contamination left that plant. It was all--the water just recirculated, and then we didn't release the coolant to the river like all the other reactors that the water would go through the reactor and into the river and still have some radioactivity still left in it, so the N Reactor was a solution for that particular problem. So as they're prior getting ready for writing all those tests and starting of the reactor as assigned training mission aboard the Nuclear Ship Savannah. The Nuclear Ship Savannah was built as part of the Atoms for Peace under Eisenhower. And then that was kind of jointly N Reactor was kind of the same sort of thing, where we would have an Atoms for Peace. We had, instead of just producing plutonium, we also could eventually, if it was approved, add the power generation station. So the original testing of N Reactor went very well, on schedule, and they gave me this little award here, which is the general manager’s award. They didn't give many of these out. And actually, along with that I got a check that was about the size of another month’s pay, so when I was young and needed the money, that was very welcome. Arata: We'll get a picture of that at the end for sure. Leitz: So with that success then, we went ahead and I, during the lifetime of the N Reactor, I worked there a long time. The dual purpose construction was approved in May of 1965, and as a part of that dedication, President Kennedy came out and made a big dedication. And let me see, I think—yeah, 37,000 people came to hear the President speak here the first time Hanford was open up to the public. They had parked thousands of cars out there out in the middle of the desert. Kennedy came in a helicopter. Even though we had watered the ground down, it was just a cloud of dust because it was a construction site, and man, boy, you couldn't even see the helicopter when it was landing. And I had the big job of helping park cars and stuff like that at that time. That’s what it took an engineer to do. [LAUGHTER] It was kind of a fun day for everybody, I think. Arata: Did you get to actually see President Kennedy going over his speech then? Leitz: Yeah, oh, yeah. We got to really see him. Nobody got to shake hands with him, except a very few. I mean, they still have the podium somewhere that he talked from. That's still on display in the museum somewhere. So the first real problem that occurred at N Reactor that they couldn't solve. For some reason, we were having a lot of fuel failures. And some of it was due to equipment problems. Some of it was due to the way they were loading the tubes and that sort of thing. And they appointed me to hit up a task force to try and reduce the fuel failure rate. The fuel failure rate was something like one a month! And when the task force got done and made all these recommendations and they implemented them, we got it down to something like one a month. Now in doing that job, I decided I'm going to do it as a thesis for my master's degree in business. And so it was an operational analysis sort of thing. It was very successful, and I got my thesis paper written and that sort of thing, and that's in the libraries here somewhere. So that was very successful at Battelle. Then I got to be manager of the N Reactor Operations, and I always had to test everybody before they--I was part of a team that tested everybody before they would be certified. N Reactor was the first reactor at Hanford, at least, that certified ladies to be reactor operators. We had two or three ladies while I was manager of operations at the plant that became certified, which I was pretty proud that we didn't have this bias, women against men and that sort of thing. But after I got done, when I was manager I followed every startup personally to make sure they didn't mess up, that they were doing it right. And then I went into managing the safety for all the reactors that were left and fuels and so on and so forth. And the people in the plant operations were always trying to get me to do faster reactor startups. Because if you get the plant started up faster, you get to generate your electricity faster, and they say you could gain as much as a third of a day production by starting up the reactor fast. Well, when they asked me go back in and again--well the fuel failure rate went way up. Going up to better than one a month. And asked me to go again and examine what's going wrong with--how come the fuels are failing? And I said, because you're not really sticking with the original recommendation of controlling slowly and raising reactor power level. And no, no, no, we don't believe that. And so I said, okay, let's arbitrate it with Battelle. Battelle will analyze it. So they came in with their people who really understand stress and strains and all that kind of stuff. And they analyzed it and said that they were reactor startup rates that they were going at put ten times the stress on as a reaction scram would. So once they've, again, got control of their power rates going up again, the fuel failures went way back down again. So that was another one of the ways that I put a success on my career. In fact, we were there for a while. We were so erratic in the way the reactor would shut down and start up--is that the dams—if we would trip off, they would have to pick up the electrical load. And that one of the dams when I went to visit with the Corps of Engineers, back when I was taking some of my reserve training through the Corps of Engineers, I saw a sign, Old Faithful where the N Reactor power was showing. It was kind of interesting. It's interesting that when the first electrical energy was produced, three of the reactors had already been shut down. Now we always felt that N Reactor that N Reactor could just about replace the production of those three reactors. And so we weren't too worried about us getting shut down. But as we operated on through the years, we had all the reactors shut down by 1969, actually--yeah, by 1971, all reactors, including N Reactor, was shut down. And we started the big campaign to get to the Washington Public Power Supply system and/or now the Northwest Electrical Energy to give us better payment for our steams, and with the better rate on steam, we got people to then restart N Reactor under a better contract. So in 1971, after being shut down as a part of all the reactors, we were restarted and allowed to operate. We operated through—okay, and in 1971, when all the plants were down, we had another president visit. The only second president that I know that came to Richland, and that Nixon that came. And he'd give us the old pep talk about how he wasn't going to leave us all in the lurch here in Hanford. That we're going to have people like Pacific Northwest labs and so on and bringing the business, and there'd be plenty for us to do. Well, we did get N Reactor restarted and we operated then through—well, Mt. St. Helens erupted in '80 and in 1980, we had to do some upgrades to make sure that that sort of thing would not interfere with our operation. We got up to where we generated 65 billion kilowatt hours of electrical power, and then in 1987, after that achievement, we were shut down to make some safety improvements to improve our operation, make it more safe. And we never did restart from that. We were kept out. So at that time I was reassigned to the decommissioning work, cleaning up Hanford and being mainly involved in safety with the reactors. I became more involved then with making sure that the effort to decontaminate everything, and it was done within environmental requirements and within safety requirements. You had these big tanks of waste, and there's a potential that just by sticking a probe into a tank of waste, you can moderate the waste such that it could possibly even go critical like a reactor. So we had to examine everything they wanted to do--if they wanted to put a new pump in a tank or if they wanted to move the liquid around, if they wanted to stir the liquid, or if they wanted to use certain chemicals. And what would be your environmental impact? Where do you look for waste from the tanks? A lot of waste is just buried out there. Just if you wanted to get rid of radioactive waste, you go out and dig a hole and you put some waste--and you put it in there. And so recovering all of that and recovering that safely for personnel and for the environment is the job that I ended up doing for the rest of my career. So basically I had what I considered a pretty good career at Hanford. I really thought there were some good challenges, and I thought I made some pretty good contributions to operations at Hanford Project. Arata: Is it okay if I ask a few more follow up questions? Leitz: Pardon? Arata: Can I ask you a few more follow up questions? Leitz: Oh, you bet ya. Arata: That was some good coverage of your time— Woman one: There’s also some water there if you need it. Leitz: No, I don’t need it. [LAUGHTER] Arata: --And your working period. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit more about on board the Savannah, and how that experience came about? I mean, what your experience on the ship was like and what its mission was? Leitz: Okay. I could talk all day on that, really. But the first thing, we got on in Portland, Oregon. And we went out to the—the first thing I knew it is there a man came aboard the ship, the side, and he took over the control of the ship. He was a harbor pilot. And I didn't realize that. Why is that? And he said, well, because that particular bay going out into the ocean is noted as the graveyard for many ships because that's one of the worst entries into the ocean there as far as being rough and tricky, and it moved around. So you have to have a particular man who knows what's going on in that bay to help to get the ship out. So that was kind of interesting to find out that there are those kind of risks with running a ship. Arata: And how would this come about? How had you gotten the invitation to be on the Savannah? Leitz: Well, based on my experience. They stuck me to be a startup engineer, and they thought and felt I needed special training in high pressure, high temperature reactors. And there was an opportunity to get it, on a ship that used the same kind of a reactor that we had on the N Reactor except it was much, much smaller. It was toy one compared with the N Reactor. Let's see, is there really anything more about that? Oh, what they did is they selected the people on the basis of having one with the reactor at all times during the startup testing. So the four shift managers were selected. My boss's bosses were selected, and I was selected to get that particular training because they felt I would be writing the tests. I need to know about all of it. And they needed to have that experience on every shift. The top man in every shift was also on that ship. So it was kind of interesting, just as a sideline, five of them are Navy men, and I was an Army man, and I was kind of the butt of their jokes. You're going to get seasick, and we're going to all laugh at you. And we get into--after we went through the Panama Canal--and we all took some time off in the Panama Canal in terms of working extra before and after—but after we got to the Panama, we went into the Caribbean, and we did get into quite a storm. That ship was actually taking water over the bow. It would go down and go up and go down and go up. And I was out there watching that bow and then I went in to go and eat that night. And I couldn't find any of those other guys. Couldn't find a one of them anywhere. That was kind of a funny part of it is I was probably the only one, I don't think, that didn't get seasick. But it was a fun trip, and we flew back home from Galveston, then. Arata: What route did the ship take while you were on it? Leitz: Well, it went down the coast of South America in through the Panama Canal into the Caribbean and into Galveston, Texas, yeah. Arata: How long were you aboard? Leitz: 30 days. It was a nice cruise. Really it's one of the best vacations I ever had. [LAUGHTER] Except they had us do a study, but I didn't mind the study at all. Arata: I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit--you did a lot of work on safety and security. Could you talk a little bit about if you had to where any special protective clothing in what you did or maybe what sorts of standards you set for other people to follow? Leitz: At one time I was a manager, in fact, of first-hand safety, but only safety in the context of security and that sort of thing. At one time, they had a big upgrade at Hanford for security, and I was in charge the upgrading. But as far as personally, I went into the reactor sites many times and had do the special clothing. If there's any chance of air contamination, you had to have respirators on. And to get out of a radiation area, you have to go to two step-off pads. The first one you just get your clothes off on it. And the second one then, they check you in, and you can come on out. But you had radiation monitors check you any time you come out of a radiation suit and instruments, you put your hands and feet on them and a special clothing. Arata: Were there ever any incidents that you recall? Anything either humorous or a little bit scary or anything like that? Leitz: Well, some that aren't too finicky. One of the K Reactors, when they started it, they had a new physicist, and he held a high period. I don't know if you realize, a 30-second period when you're at watts, you aren't really increasing power real fast, but if you keep that 30-second period when you’re up in megawatts, then it's very, very rapid, increasing power. And then it was the startup of one of the Ks, this new physicist had him hold that 30-second period until the reactors scrammed out from these [INAUDIBLE] trips. Now one thing I could mention is that the change in technology has really changed. Back at C Reactor, we didn't know which tube was causing the scram. With the N Reactor, we knew everything going on, every tube. And we used to have to take our data downtown, in an automobile, we'd punch it out on key cards, and we'd take it down and punch those into a computer. And we'd get the limits back, we'd go back to the reactor and say, okay, you can raise power. And then we would go in and get some more limits and back and forth between town and back. And that took a long time ready to start up because that N Reactor, you had instantaneous information. You knew right along just exactly how every tube related to its limit, pressure and temperature. So we went from analog kinds of systems to digital kinds of systems, just the same thing you see in your TVs or your telephones, the same kind of thing happened at the reactors as far as computerization and technology. So that was really an enhancement. Arata: Were there any aspects of your work that you found sort of the most challenging or the most rewarding? You had several different jobs. Leitz: [LAUGHTER] Well, I think the most rewarding was where I faced up a couple managers [LAUGHTER] and won the battle. Arata: During C Reactor? Leitz: But there's some worry to our time in that too, you know, what if I'm wrong? But it turned out all right. And I think that's part of the reason that I was really considered the one man who knew the most about the reactor. I didn't know everything, but I probably knew more than most people about there. Because I started it up, I lived with it to its life, and I got the picture kind of as a reward for when I retired. Arata: Is anything that was the most challenging, maybe to work through in your time at Hanford? Leitz: I think when I think of the operation N Reactor, I think it was the most challenging job I had. Because that one required, like I said, I went with all the startups. And that's when I was a process engineer with the reactor. When they had problems, they'd call us at night and that sort of thing. But with N Reactor, it was kind of more volunteer, but to know—and some of the shift managers were pretty hesitant on their own to make decisions. And I think that was probably the most challenging job was the operation of one of those big reactors—or that single big reactor and knowing when or when not to say, hey, you've got to shut down, or you don't have to shut down. And the controls even at N Reactor on the environmental controls, you can let down water into a crib—into a spill cooler if you wanted to, and even that was very, very--it had to be done without radiation released into the environment. And there's a real, real difference in attitudes over the years of environmental control and making sure you did not release isotopes into the environment. Really had differences in attitudes. Arata: Yeah, I understand that the Chernobyl incident had a big impact on the decision to finally close N Reactor, to not restart N Reactor. Do you have any thoughts? Leitz: Well, N Reactor is a graphite moderator reactor. And Chernobyl when they raised power level fast, their graphite coefficient was different than N Reactor. N Reactor, if you raised the power fast, it would shut it down, it would tend to shut it down. So as you were starting up fast, in R Reactor, you had to pull the rods faster and faster if you heat it up faster in order to keep the activity going up. In Chernobyl, the same thing happened, but their rods weren't strong enough to stop it. And so it kept going up in power until it melted the core. Now at N Reactor, we ran a lot of experiments to try and prove that even if that did happen, we don't think our graphite would have burnt. But to tell somebody you've got a graphite stack over here that burnt, and then we've got a graphite stack over here that's a little different composition and made up a little different way, it won't burn—just one cell. We still believe that we never could've burnt the N Reactor stack, but basically, that's what kept it down. It's shut it down for keeps—it’s the fact that why won't our stack burn? We just couldn't prove our stack wouldn't burn. We put torches on it, heat it up to a tremendous temperature, it wouldn't burn, but is that enough proof that it won't burn? You know, just wouldn't quite buy. So you know about a little bit about Chernobyl, huh? [LAUGHTER] Arata: A tiny bit. What was Hanford like overall as a place to work? Leitz: Well, the real inconvenience is location. Riding the bus back and forth initially, and later, we drove our own car. I actually wore out a little Metropolitan driving back and forth. I kind of enjoyed that little car, but we got to use our own cars. We carpooled and these sorts of things. One thing you'd see in the desert, and I don't know if many, many people are aware of it, but sometimes you see a lot of rabbits killed on the highway. And pretty soon you'd see no more rabbits on the highway, but you start seeing wolves and coyotes killed on the highway. And that's the cycle of what would happen is when there are lots of rabbits, there's a lot for the coyote to eat. And you could just see that cycle at Hanford, over a number of years, the population of each of those would vary. And if the rabbit population goes out, then the other population goes out. When it goes down, it goes down. So it was kind of interesting to see that. Arata: Yeah. I wonder if we could back up just briefly to when you first arrived, if you had any impressions of what Richland was like as a community when you first arrived here? Leitz: Well, the main reaction we had was, man, it’s costing us a lot more to live than those people that have been here for a while because they had a lot of stuff provided to them, coal or whatever. But you know, the rents were half what we had to pay and that sort of thing, but that didn't last forever. And buying the houses was it really turned out to be a very promising thing. We had weather storms, pretty bad. We had termination winds. We had a pastor, one of our pastors at church--the wife was just by herself when the storm had come in the sand would come through her doors. She wanted her husband to stop that from happening. [LAUGHTER] We had a lot of activities for couples and younger people and so on that we don't have now. Sororities, the Army Reserve meetings, and all these sort of things, you know. Nowadays, people don't want the same kind of entertainment as they had back in those days with Richland. So it’s a different style, more thrifty, maybe that's the whole United States. Arata: Did you have sorts of dances or community events, things like that? Leitz: Yeah, had quite a few community events and dances and things like that. Arata: I know at one point you mentioned White Bluffs. Did you go out to the town site at any point during your first few years here? Leitz: Well, we had to drive past it almost every day. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Were there still buildings standing by that point? Or-- Leitz: The foundations in some of the walls and stuff were there, but none of the buildings were really intact. One of the old gas stations--but some of the people, and I didn't get it going, but some of the people did some exploration, which was not allowed. But they did on the old sites. Arata: I just have a couple other things that I wanted to ask you about from reading through your notes. A lot of what I've read about N Reactor talks about zirconium, and I understand this is sort of an innovation at the time. Could you talk a little bit about what it was, and why it was so new? Leitz: Well, zirconium, they needed a process tube. In the old reactors, there was just aluminum, because there was only cold water going through. They’d maybe get, oh, maybe it would get almost to boiling on the outside of some of the aluminum tubes. In the N Reactor you need a process tube that withstood the high temperature, high pressure. And so they developed this new metal, zirconium, that would withstand the temperatures and pressure and so on involved within the reactor, and the fuel was also clad in that. So if we ran on aluminum tube or aluminum fuel outline at the temperature we had to run at, it would have, what do you call it? A fuel failure. And fuel failures, well, I didn't talk too much about them, but there you're opening up the cladding to the uranium and then the uranium fission product took it in. And you’re likely for that to stay in the primary loop and cause high radiation to our workers. In the other old reactors, it would just go on through the reactor. And hopefully most of it would get picked up and they'd have a cooling pond for the water goes too and then the water goes the river. But small amounts of that could get to the river, and I think that's some of things they found with the aluminum tubes. But our zirconium tubes, they were much more resistant to temperature and pressure and so on. Arata: Is there anything that you'd sort of like to pass on, wisdom to future generations? Of course, most of my students didn't live through the Cold War. They were born afterwards and don't really have an understanding of that time. Is there anything that you'd like future generations to know about what that experience was like of living through and working through the Cold War? Leitz: Well, there's a lot of fear of radiation that's not merited, and it's something you have to learn to live with. Just like in our agricultural world, there are a lot of chemicals and stuff that we're using now we didn't use to use. But we have to learn to use them safely. I think radiation, contamination with radiation, there's a big difference between contamination and irradiation. If you go in for an X-ray, you get irradiated, but you don't get contaminated. If you get contaminated, you've actually got the radioactive material on you, and then you, yourself, become a carrier of that. Contamination is a thing that is more to be feared than just the radiation itself, but you have to control the radiation. Just understanding how to best preserve it. Now we haven't learned all our lessons yet on how to control all the fuel and the reactors, for instance. We haven't got a disposal method that--we're still arguing about how we're going to take care of those spent fuel elements and that sort of thing in our commercial reactors. And we have to learn to do that, but I think now—I just read an article the other day in the paper about the dangers we have from just fossil fuels or even the wind machines and so forth. They are not free of environmental problems. And so you've got to learn to live with radiation and, hopefully, that can be reactors, new generation reactors can be a source of power that will eliminate all these problems. Even the possibility of burning the fuel up to where it’s used up rather than create contamination. There are some real lessons to be learned yet. Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet that you'd like to tell me about? Leitz: Well, I told you about Nixon and the time when all the reactors were shut down. 65 billion kilowatt hours were generated by N Reactor before it was finally shut down. That's a lot of electrical power. At one time we were really the leading reactor insofar as the power generated, but that didn't last long as the new, larger reactors came online. But for a while, we were running the race. We overtook some of the smaller ones. Arata: I understand you were at the closure last year. Leitz: Yeah, last year I went out to closure. [LAUGHTER] That's almost funny because I found out they're going to have a shutdown, so I was trying to go. And this lady called to explain to my wife that--I wasn't home--that I wasn't invited. And she says, well, he thinks he's Mr. N Reactor. He thinks you ought to invite him, and after she talked to him, they invited me to go. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that’s kind of-- Arata: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your stories with us. We really appreciate it. We'll get some images of your award and you picture now. Leitz: Yeah. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 197 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview C Reactor N Reactor Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca.1955-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Nixon, Richard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emil Leitz Description An account of the resource An interview with Emil Leitz conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear waste disposal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] C Reactor General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Washington Public Power Supply System White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0679822ca9a8d5569e80be87de0ba644.jpg fafae55dc6d92c14429447cdc4838c1e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F60f5c824efd8721582df5663210be323.mp4 92c5db41aace0c6b2629087ff6826582 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emma Kleinknecht Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Northwest Public Television | Kleinknecht_Emma </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Robert Bauman: I'm conducting an oral history interview with Emma Larson Kleinknecht if I have the name right, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Emma Kleinknecht: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And the spelling is K-L-E-I-N-K-N-E-C-H-T? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Correct. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Excellent All right. Make sure we have the spelling right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And today's date is June 12, 2013 and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Ms. Kleinknecht about her family's history, her experiences growing up in Richland, in that community. So let's just start, if I could, by asking you about your family. How, and why, and when did they come to this area? What brought them here, and any information about your family and why they came here would be great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, my dad came from Denmark. And he went up to Alaska and worked in the mines. And then he came down to Seattle, and after a while, he got interested in working with the cattle. So somehow or another he came over to Richland and met my mother over there, and she was single. And then he married her, and I was born 1918. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And your mother, was your mother born and raised in Richland or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. She was born and raised on the coast. But she had relatives that lived over that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know when your parents married? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, a couple years before I was born. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And how about any siblings? Are there any brothers or sisters? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes. There were six, three girls and three boys. And then when I was eight years old, my dad came in the house, he says, "Emma, you've got to learn to milk cows." Because the girls were first, you know. So I went out and helped milk cows, or learned how. And from then on, I milked cows. But all of us had to go out and pitch hay to make hay for the cattle, and we put it on a big haystack. And there's a picture of that here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you had a place with lots of cattle? Do you have any idea how many cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we had eight cows, two horses. Because in them days, you never had tractors, so you had to have horses, to do all the outdoor work like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you grow any crops? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes! We raised everything by hand. We had corn, and tomatoes, and you name it. All the vegetables there were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And were those primarily for your family? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. And then the cream, we separated and sent it down to Kennewick to the creamery where they made butter. And, course you got paid for it. And, let's see, what else-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: How big was the place that you had-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think we had about 20 acres. We had a lot of asparagus, and us kids had to cut asparagus before the school bus came, or we didn't get to go to school. But we went to an old country school, where was one teacher, five grades. There's a picture of me in one of them pictures. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was this in Richland or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Old Richland, up north. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We never got downtown for a while. It was really something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you said five grades and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Five grades and one teacher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And do you have any idea of around how many students that would've been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I used to know, but I forgot. [LAUGHTER] That was back when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. And how long did you go to school there, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think I was in the fifth grade and then, about that time, we had a school bus that would take us downtown to the old schools. I called them old, because they're so different [LAUGHTER] now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: You have a photo you wanted me to show? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. This is the country school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay, great. So it looks like there's maybe, what, 20 or 30? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Could be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is there something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It could be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: 1925? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's about right. I wrote it down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, 1925. Fruitvale School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And this school was used for a church, and a dance hall, and a grange hall. Because, see, all the farmers were grangers. So that was in the good old days. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And so--that's a great photo--After that, after, say, fifth grade, where did you go to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Downtown. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: There was a grade school and a high school down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I think you sent us some photos of you playing basketball, maybe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah! That was downtown. That was a different kind of basketball. I was a side center. I'm the second one there. The tallest girl was the center, and then I was a side center because I was shortest. Then there were two guards, and two forwards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And now they play just like the boys do. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, it says champion basketball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, that one is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, 1935, '36. That's great. Do you remember how long you played? Did you play throughout high school then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. That's what this is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you remember if there were other sports for girls to play in high school besides basketball? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's all we played, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So I assume the schools in downtown Richland were a little bigger? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. There were five grades in one building. Then we went over to the high school. And right by the high school was a Methodist Church and a Seven Day Adventist. Catholics all had to go downtown because there were no church. And so my dad found some building, and had to make a Lutheran church, because all Scandinavians were Lutherans. And that's where he came from. So we all became Lutherans. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So you talked about that early school building, in Fruitvale, being used as a school building, a church, a grange. I was wondering about other social activities, or community activities that you might remember growing up. Were there Fourth of July celebrations, or community picnics or any of those sorts of things? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I've kind of forgot, but I think that it could've been used for anything. But those other things were always the big things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Them were the days. And I had to run from our house, across the sagebrush to the school. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So what sorts of things growing up did you do for fun? Did you do fishing, or did you go swimming in the river, or any of those sorts of things? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, my dad, when we were little, would take us down at the river and get us swimming to get cleaned up, so we could go to church. [LAUGHTER] See, we weren't too far from that Columbia River where we used to live. But that was in the summertime. [LAUGHTER] So we were tickled to death to get to go down there and swim. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did the river ever freeze over when you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Not when we went down there. This was only in the summer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, sure. So the place where you grew up, in addition into a house, did you have a barn? Was there other buildings like an outhouse, anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. We had outdoor toilets. Pumped our water out of wells, and when we milked the cow we had a separator, and had to separate the milk and get the cream. Yep, we had all them old things. Had to pump water for washing clothes, taking baths, and put water in big tea kettles so you could wash dishes. It was a different world then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you have electricity at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. Not for years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: How long did you live there in that place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Gosh, I don't remember. It seems like my dad passed away, and my mom sold our house. And we moved over next to that school house. There was an old building there. And she still kept a few cows, and just had a garden, and like an orchard out in the fields. So after that, we were catching school buses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: When you were growing up, what might a typical day have been like for you as a young girl? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: The what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What might a typical day have been for you as a young girl-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: The things you might have done on a typical day as a young girl, growing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Well, I joined the 4H group. For one thing, and we really had a lot of fun. Learned how to sew, and cook, that's what 4Hs were in them days. I don't know if they still have them or not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I believe they do, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Do they? Yeah, those were the days. Then there's times we'd, a few of us neighbor kids, get together and walk down the river, and walk back up, and swing on swings. That was about the size of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I wonder if you remember anything--the Great Depression came along in 1929 or so, and I wonder if you remember, with the Depression, anything specific that had impacted your family, or the community in any way? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I think because we raised everything we ate, my mom canned everything. And everything we had was from the ground. And none of us suffered from it. Because we had our own milk and those kind of things. Nope, them were the days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so where were you living in 1943 during World War II, when the federal government came and created the Hanford site? Were you still-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I was married then. I got married in '38. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That was a bad thing. The government gave everybody a check. They didn't even know this was coming. And told them to get out, take everything you got and leave. So my mom went to Grandview. Some of them went up there, some went to Prosser, and a couple of them stayed there. But they all had to leave town and they went to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So your mother was still living on the same place at that time and she left and to Grandview? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Bauman: Were any of your younger siblings still living with her, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, I think they were, because I was the oldest one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so you said you got married in 1938? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: '38, yeah. Bauman: And who was your husband? How did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Umm, he was a friend of my sister's boyfriend. [LAUGHTER] That's how I met him. In fact, his folks they didn't live too far from where we built a big house and lived in there, on Westhood Avenue. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you said that you moved to Kennewick, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What was Kennewick like in 1938-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was real small. Just a small town, and it was just groceries and a couple drugstores. It's not pool halls like you go down there now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what did your husband do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: He was just a--oh, he was a farmer but afterwards, he worked out in Hanford in the fire department. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know how long he was there or worked at the fire department? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I'm trying to think. They let him go, and then he got sick and passed away. It was probably something from out in that area. But that's been several years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Now, you mentioned going back to talking about the place where you grew up, that you had a well for water-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we pumped our water out of the well. For even the cows and the horses. And we had to bring the horses up to the pump, because that's okay. But he carried the water in a big wheelbarrow, in buckets, to put in a barrel down for the cows. Because he wasn't about to, I'm sure, drag them up there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you have irrigation at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes! Oh, yes, not for the house, but for the fields. Oh yeah, we had K.I.D., just like they got now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Were there any other photos, Gary, that you wanted to talk about, or any other-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Well sure. We've got her graduating class. Just--I'll hold it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What year is-- You said you graduated high school in what year is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: '38, or '36. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: 1936. Graduating class of how many is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Graduating class of 15. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Was that Columbia high school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: The old Richland, right, sure. Richland, High. Then it became Columbia, the Columbia High, you're right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. Two, four, five boys, and the rest are girls. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you stay in contact with a lot of your high school friends after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh after I graduated and got married we all kind of--then several years ago we had picnic lunches together, but that's been a while back. But not many of them are here anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you remember any of your teachers from the high school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. That basketball player, oh that guy there. In the middle, up there, Mr. Carmichael. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, is that Mr. Carmichael? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Isn't that who the school was named after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Was he a principal? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. He was a good guy. There was a grade school and a high school in downtown Richland. And that was-- I can't see the—193-what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Five. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. Both are in 1935. Do you know where in Richland that would have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. You know where John Dam's grocery store used to be? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: No, is it-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: On Kennewick Avenue. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: You don't know either, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I know where to pick them out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I know where the Amon Building is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, just back there a ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: But see, that's all that was around those buildings, just little-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Yeah, not a whole lot of other buildings there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I think there's a toilet in the back out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, I would hope so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Are there any things that you remember growing up or that really stand out to you that--memories you have, or things that you think would be really important for people to know about this place where you grew up that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, they would never have realized how we made our living off the ground. Kids nowadays won't do that. Okay, here is us kids driving the horses. Because we had no tractors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And that's you and a couple of your siblings? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep, a couple boys. Yep. That's old Prince and Henry. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you have the horses then the whole time you were growing up? You never got tractors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, when my dad was alive, we never had a tractor. And there's that one with the hay. Okay, that's how—Show them. Show them how the haystacks were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Can you talk about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. I know us kids would get the hay in big stacks. Then we'd throw it up on this wagon. And then tie--they had a rope here and here, and then time we got down to the haystack, they'd tie that rope up above in there, and then pull it over. Roll it, that's how they got the hay in a big stack. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sounds like a lot of work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was. In the winter time, they'd take a great big canvas and cover the top of the hay, so it wouldn't get wet and ruined. That's how they fed the cattle and the horse. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about any neighbors. Who were your closest neighbors, or did you have any really good friends when you were growing up that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. These are all--were my neighbors when I grew up. First grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh. Who are they? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Tell them about them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, okay. That's, the Kaas boy, I can't think of his name right now. He lived right down a ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is that Gordon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: It's at the bottom, Mom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, did I write it there? Oh, Ed Kaas, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And then Phillip Hempcry, right there and me, oh, and Carol Hansen. He's the little guy. But they're no relation. Yep. They all live not too far apart. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Right. In fact, I just talked to Gordon Kaas this morning. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh did you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: See, and then there was also another one. Started with an F. Oh, phooey. He lived down the Pole Line Road. There was an irrigation canal between the school and the other families' farms. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so you lived close enough to those families where you could-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We played all the time, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Gee, I can't think of that name, and I know it like I do even mine. I'll think of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] Oh! Yeah, my dad wanted to be baker. This is in Denmark. And his dad didn't want him to be a baker, so he and his cousin jumped something and come to the United States from Denmark. And that's how come he met my mom and that's how come I'm here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So, did he come to the United States-- do you know why the United States, was it just for opportunity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, to get a good job. He wanted to maybe get to be a baker here. But he and his cousin, they went to Alaska. Then they come to Seattle and worked on a farm. And that's what got him interested. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's interesting because Gordon Kaas said that--I was just talking to him this morning--his father is from Denmark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. So two families from Denmark living very close. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I'll be darned! What was his name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Kaas. His first name was--well, Gordon Kaas was the man I talked to this morning, but I think you're talking about his older brother-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Harold. I'll be darned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, their father was from Denmark. Initially, they went to Oregon somewhere-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So, I’m trying to think of any--I guess one other question to ask you is, So you were married in '38 and moved to Kennewick, and I was just gonna ask you about when--do you remember finding out about, for instance, about World War II? The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, do you remember any of that? Any memories about hearing about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Pearl Harbor. I knew about it, and forgot about it. Who do I know about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It's what started World War II. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Pearl Harbor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. Another question, Did you have--How did you get news? Was there a newspaper or anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. Newspaper. When we were married, we had a little radio for a while, and then we got a TV. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: But when you were growing up, it was a newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Always. And a radio. Oh when I grew up, you never had televisions. I don't think anybody did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you wanna tell them about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. Well, this is my mother, and sisters and brothers, and there's the horse. [LAUGHTER] See, that's how we heated up our house, with wood. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, sure, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Everybody did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What was the horse's name again? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Prince, one was Prince and one was Henry. I think that was probably Henry, because Prince was a little fussier. And I don't think they would carry him out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So the horses were obviously very important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: For doing a lot of the work on your place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. Because we never had tractors. In fact, you couldn't afford to buy one if you did, if you would want one. Nope. Them were the days. Oh, yes, and here's my momma and my papa, and my two sisters. One of them's me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: You're the oldest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Second. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, you're the second? Okay. That's a great photo. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, my dad-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So that would've been some time in the 1920s, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Early. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. He's from Denmark. And he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know where-- You said she was living in Richland, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know where her family came from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, like, over on the coast. I was trying to think of the little name. Yelm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, Yelm, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is that what you said, she had relatives here and that's why-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's why she came over. I think she had a sister or an aunt or something. Nope, but I'll never forget our school days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: We're getting kinda low on them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you wanna talk about--well, you've seen--No, that's the little kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, the grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Let me hold it, Mom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Just a minute, I gotta look at them. Oh, this is everybody in that school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: That's your first grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. 1925. That's my first grade, yeah, but that's the five grades. They all dressed alike in them days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHING] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We were all poor people. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So if someone is to you, like, what sort of place Richland was like to grow up in, what would you--how would you describe it? What would you say to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: In them days? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. When you were growing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I'd been in that place for so long. I don't know. Because there was an irrigation ditch from the school to—you cross the bridge, then we'd go home. We used to stop and go swimming. Oh, I kinda liked where I lived. And then, of course, after I got married my mom went to Grandview. But that wasn't my cup of tea. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did your brothers and sisters, stay in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I'm trying to think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Or did they move elsewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think they moved elsewhere. I know one went down to Oregon, and the other went up north further. And then my oldest brother was a heavy smoker. And he had to go pass away. I don't know where he ever got money to buy cigarettes, but he did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Anything else about growing up here in Richland that you want to make sure we know about, or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I just like the town, Old Richland. And then where there is a yellow building, like before you go down to the park, brick building, that used to be a two story building. And now it's only one. There was a John Dam store, and a Murray Hardware, and--oh, what do you call them? It'll come to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Name some names, quick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Describe, what? Describe it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: The store. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, describe it. What did they do there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, like the shave and cut your hair. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Oh-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Barbershop. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Barbershop? Yeah. Was there a movie theater down at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Not in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: No? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: You had to come to Kennewick to go to a movie. [LAUGHTER] And they were cheap, ten cents. Cheap now, I don't know if it was cheap then. [LAUGHTER] My dad did take us kids to a movie once for a dime but it had to be a special. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Right, sure. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No, them old days. Right now they're good old days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] All right, well-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Would you like me to prompt her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sure, if there's something that you think-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I can probably pull a story or two out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sure, that's fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Okay. Did you guys have dances? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Okay. Did-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: In that school house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: And did your parents participate? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, heavens, yes. This is the grange hall, after the meetings. My dad danced with every lady. But my mom wasn't dancing. So I asked her why? She said, "I'm a Sunday school girl." But she never learned to dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So she wasn't gonna dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. She's a Sunday school girl. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Did your dad ever help you gals, or your brothers and sisters get out to go to dances? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: With him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we all went to the dances. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: But your mom didn't approve? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: She went along, but she didn't dance. But I'd learned to dance all kinds of dances. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember when the last time you danced was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: At your wedding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: You did there too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We out danced every-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was your 90th birthday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah. You danced with me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's a couple years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] I forgot. Yeah, I love to dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So the dances were in that same building as the school and the church grange meetings, or were they different? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: As we grew up, they were in there. But as we got older and the bigger schools they didn't do it anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We all went downtown to the schools, because they were much better schools. More new, indoor toilets, drinking water, everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember when your dad got sick eventually and died, do you remember any of the stories that go along with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I know he passed away at home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember what he died of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think it was his heart. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was, you called it, the yellow jaundice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I'd forgotten that. Yeah. That's been a while back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was gonna ask you, you and your siblings, were you all born at home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: All at home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Nope, doctors never come to your house in them days. You had to deliver them yourself. Nope, them were different days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Any other stories you think we should talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: If you give me a minute. Earlier there was a question about the river freezing over. It certainly wasn't when you guys went swimming-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Did it freeze in the winter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Was it common? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [Nods] When it froze. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you ever go ice skating on it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. We stayed away from it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was also gonna ask you, I understand there was a ferry that would transport people across the river, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Somewhere-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Down south at Kennewick. It crossed over to Pasco. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And that's how people could get across. There weren't any bridges at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah there was, but it was way down, like where it is now. But if you wanted to take the ferry over from Richland, you wouldn't have to drive clear down there. And we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: How about the Timmerman ferry? Do you remember that one? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That name sounds familiar. That was the one across the Yakima? ‘Cause the other one-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I think it was near the mouth of the Yakima, but I think it crossed the Columbia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Could be. I've heard the name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I'm not sure, it was before my time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I think that might be right. I think that's what I heard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories. And the photos are great as well, those are terrific photos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Sure, I hope I give you some good— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh yeah! It's very interesting stuff to hear about from people who lived here. Who know what was going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: People would never done what we did. [LAUGHTER] God. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Well thank you very much, I really appreciate you coming-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Imagine, milking cows? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: They still do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well some places. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: With machines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: With machines, yeah. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:20 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 240kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1918-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kass, Ed Hempcry, Philip Hansen, Carol Kaas, Gordon Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emma Kleinknecht Description An account of the resource An interview with Emma Kleinknecht conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-13: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/12/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F54b7d20ee0fcb15c4aebd8d1af46a357.JPG 40b102488e4fb85911aee5b9a13e2f64 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe08d7b8e6f2d6e24e1c536f63f7f699a.mp4 96bdc31eb1aa12d2238a3fd1220bdcaa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emma Peoples Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emma Peoples: --American families. And I suppose with other cultures, also, sometimes. People were known by initials only. But that was his legal name. Franklin: Interesting. Peoples: And that was my father’s legal name. C.J. Mitchell, Senior, C.J. Mitchell, Junior. Franklin: Interesting. Okay. Great. Like I said, I have a little bit of boilerplate before we start, but I’ll have lots of questions for you about C.J. We got a chance to interview him—I didn’t, but our project did back in 2013. Bob Bauman, who’s a colleague of mine, a friend of mine sat down here with C.J. I’ve not only watched C.J.’s interview; I’ve assigned it in my history class when talking about race in the Tri-Cities. So it’s definitely been a—he was quite a guy. And we’ve interviewed Duke, Greg, we’re going to interview Vanessa, and I think that’s it for your nieces and nephews. And then— Peoples: You haven’t gotten to Cameron yet? Franklin: Haven’t gotten to Cameron yet, no, no. Peoples: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: We’ll get there. We will get there. Because I’ve heard lots about him. And then of course you, we’ve really wanted to talk to you, too. But anyway, there’s some boilerplate and then we’ll just get right into it. And I’ll ask you a bit about how you got here and your life in Texas, and then how things were here. We’ll go from there, does that sound good? Peoples: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And there’s some water next to you there if you need it at any point. Peoples: Okay. Franklin: And also I really like your jacket. I wanted to say that. Peoples: Oh, thank you. Franklin: It looks really cool. It kind of looks like really cool lizard skin, you know what I mean? Like scales. Peoples: Yeah. Franklin: I like it a lot. It’s really neat. Okay. Peoples: One other thing I want to tell you, though. Franklin: Yeah? Peoples: The Bartons. Franklin: Yes. Peoples: You know how they are related? Franklin: Kind of. Keith explained it to me, but— Peoples: My mother and Keith Barton’s father were first cousins. Franklin: Okay, okay. So your mother and— Peoples: Their parents were brother and sister. Keith’s grandmother and my grandfather were brother and sister. Franklin: So your mother and Keith Barton’s father. Peoples: Yeah, were first cousins. Franklin: Yeah. Because he said, oh yeah, I’m related to the Daniels and the Mitchells and— Peoples: My mother was a Daniel. Franklin: Right, right. Okay. I need to draw this tree out. Because I have it kind of in my mind, but— Peoples: Okay. Okay, my great-grandfather was named William Daniels. I don’t know how many kids he had, but the two oldest were Keith Barton’s grandmother and my grandfather. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: And—well then it gets to the—my mother was a sister to Vanis Daniels and William Daniels that lived in Pasco. And they have children who live in this area, too. And then Keith—well, they all came during the—when they were building Hanford and the jobs were good and all this, I believe how they got here. Franklin: Was your mother—you said William Daniels was your great-grandfather, so then he had a son and a daughter that you remember. Was your mother the child of the son or the daughter? Peoples: The son. Franklin: The son. So then that’s your mom. Okay. Peoples: And Keith’s dad was a child of the daughter. Franklin: Okay. Okay, that helps a lot. Thank you. Okay. All right, let us officially begin. Sound good? Peoples: Yes, I think. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, we can take—any time you need a break or have a question, just feel free. Well, do you have any questions before we start? Peoples: No. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: Not that I can think of. But I don’t know—didn’t know what to expect, so— Franklin: Yeah, that’s kind of an odd request, isn’t it? It’s going to be fun. It’s going to be a lot of fun. Okay. Ready? Lori Larson: You’ve been going. She’s already giving good stuff, so I started. Franklin: I know. Okay, well, then we have all of that. Okay, good. [LAUGHTER] My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Emma Peoples on May 2nd, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. We’ll be talking with Emma about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And Emma, did you ever work out at Hanford? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: And working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Peoples: Okay. Do you want my full legal name, or do you want all of my name? Franklin: Oh. Which one is more interesting? Peoples: Well, I consider my legal name my married name. Franklin: Okay. Can we do both because that way we can kind of talk about how you’re related to other folks that we’ve interviewed? Peoples: Okay. My legal name, currently, is Emma Ruth Peoples. E-M-M-A, R-U-T-H, P-E-O-P-L-E-S. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: My maiden name was Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L. Franklin: Okay. And you’re C.J.’s little sister? Peoples: I am C.J.’s younger sister. There were five—my mother had—I have four brothers, I’ll put it that way. All four of the boys were older than the three girls. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: My youngest brother was born in 1933. My older sister was born in 1938. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: I was born in 1940, and my younger sister in 1942. My younger sister, by the way, never saw her father. Franklin: Right, because— People: He died before she was born. He died the 7th of June; she was born the 26th of October the same year. Franklin: Oh, wow. So where—you already said when you were born. Where were you born and where did you live before coming to the Tri-Cities? Peoples: I was born in Kildare, Texas, K-I-L-D-A-R-E. That was a small community—farming community that was on between Texarkana—Texas-Arkansas—and Marshall, Texas on the Texas and Pacific Railway line. My father was a railroad man. Franklin: Okay, so between Texarkana— Peoples: Well, Texarkana’s 36 miles this way; Marshall is 32 miles this way, by rail. Franklin: So nice in-between point. Was the rail kind of the main—was that— Peoples: There were a lot—a gentleman that I did not know but I grew up with a cousin of his, and he wrote a book recently that I have. The way he described it, there were three groups of people—and he was talking African Americans—they were the timber people, northeast Texas is rich in timber; there were the railroad people, the Texas and Pacific Railroad went right through Kildare; and there were the—I said, railroad, timber—and farming. Franklin: Okay. Sounds like a typical Western town setup then. Peoples: You don’t really think of—when you think of Texas, most people think of west Texas, because that’s what you see. But east Texas is, as I said, rich in timber. Franklin: Yeah. Yes, it is. What education and work experience did you have before coming to the Tri-Cities? Peoples: Actually when I came to the Tri-Cities, I had just finished high school two months earlier. The only actual work that we did during the summer, there were crops that needed to be worked that we had a chance to do that, which we didn’t think of it so much as work as a way to see our friends during the summer. [LAUGHTER] But it did give us, I’ll just say, spending change. And people that did have things that needed to be done, community people, would have us do things like that. But as far as work-work, there was none because there was a rule in our house that you did not miss school. And you did not—and I found out from my second-oldest brother that they were not allowed to bring home a C. That was my father’s rule—which he was gone by the time I started school. But my mother was a very strong single parent, and the rules held fast. Franklin: And you said you graduated high school at 16? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: So you left Texas then, at that time? Peoples: I was 16 when I left. I don’t remember the exact date, but it was the end of July, and I turned 17 the 10th of August. Franklin: Okay, so ’57? Peoples: ’57. Franklin: So school—the Brown v. Board of Education happened in 1954; did that affect you in high school? Peoples: That, we heard about—was that in ’54? Franklin: I believe so. Peoples: Was it that soon? The only thing—what I remember is the Little Rock Nine. I was in high school at that point. And we heard about that, and there was—she went to Texas College, I believe, and she was another person that stood out in my mind. This was all before I finished high school. Her name was Autherine Lucy. She went to Texas College. Well, maybe it wasn’t Texas College, but it was in Tyler, Texas. That was another one that we saw in the paper that was a part of this. And then the college was James Meredith—what was her name? There were two. There was a young man and a young lady. I know his name was James Meredith. Franklin: Yup. Peoples: Was that the University of Mississippi? Franklin: Yeah, Ole Miss. Peoples: Okay. But I was not so much involved in that, but my younger sister actually was a part of the sit-ins. Franklin: Of the what? Peoples: Of the sit-ins. Franklin: Oh, the sit-ins. Peoples: She was a student at Bishop College in Marshall, Texas at the time. That was after I left, but— Franklin: So, your high school—going all through your schooling, your schools were segregated, right? Peoples: Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I think there was a forced integration and I read this not too long ago. The State of Texas had a forced integration. It was not until several years later that they actually integrated the schools, though. Because when I—I went back to Kildare for several months in 1960. That was during the time my husband was military. He was stationed in Germany, and we went there before we went to join him. It was during that time that they were doing the sit-ins and all that stuff. So I was not a part of any of that. But like I said, my sister was a college student and she did get involved. Franklin: And Kildare was a segregated town, right? Peoples: Absolutely. But Kildare was unique. My sister and I—my older sister and I would talk about this periodically. Where we grew up, it was segregated. But there seemed to be a healthy respect for each other. I don’t know how to describe that. But you didn’t hear about the rioting and that sort of thing. That kind of thing was kind of foreign to us. And I think because it was a farming community, and people had a history of working together, might have made the difference. But we knew the schools were segregated, but I guess maybe we just didn’t know any better and we didn’t think about it. Franklin: Things, too, like restaurants and movie theaters? Peoples: Kildare had no restaurants! [LAUGHTER] However, movie theaters, yes. If you went to the movie, Atlanta, Texas was the closest town to Kildare. It was like 14 miles going toward Arkansas. You would go through Atlanta going to Texarkana. If you went to the movie, African Americans had to sit upstairs. You could not go in the lower part. Franklin: And did you go up— Peoples: There was a stairway. Franklin: Was there a different entrance, like an outside entrance? Peoples: You know, I don’t remember for sure. Franklin: Doesn’t really matter. I was just curious. Peoples: I don’t really remember. Franklin: But nevertheless, you had to use a separate— Peoples: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And I assume you heard about the area from your brother, C.J. Peoples: My brother came here when he was 16 years old, I believe. Franklin: And do you remember what year that was? Peoples: 1947. Franklin: 1947. And why did he come to the area? Peoples: For work. We had uncles that were up this way. He took the train. And what I didn’t know was that he didn’t get all the way here the first time. He had some bad luck and ended up staying in Chicago, coming back. I learned this from my youngest brother. That was something I—as a little girl, I didn’t know anything about this. But I just knew that my big brother left, and I was unhappy. I was happy when he came home, and he left again, and I cried again. But like I said, C.J. was the father figure. C.J. was the one that was always there. He was the one that—he was actually, as a teenager, superintendent of the Sunday school. So when we went to Sunday school on Sunday, he was going to always be there. Although the churches didn’t have church services every Sunday, they did have Sunday school every Sunday. So naturally, on Sunday, that was time that was spent with C.J. also. Franklin: When did your uncles come up to the Hanford area? Peoples: I don’t remember exactly when they came up, but they came in the early ’40s. Now, I never remember my uncle Willie living in Kildare. Franklin: Was Willie’s last name, was that Daniels? Willie Daniels? Peoples: Yes. But I remember when Uncle Vanis came. They were brothers. Franklin: That’s Vanis’ father, right? Vanis Daniels. Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Because you said your mother was a Daniels. Peoples: Right. Franklin: Okay. So they came sometime in World War II? Peoples: They came up, and then Uncle Vanis came back. And then I don’t—they actually—and then he and my aunt and the youngest son came to Washington and then the rest of the family followed, I think, like six months later. They came—I remember that they left in the summertime. They waited until school was out before they came. And they did have an older sister who was an adult that was with them. So they weren’t—it wasn’t just the kids left without any adult there. But that, I believe, was in 1951. Franklin: Okay. What was it about the Hanford area that was drawing folks? Peoples: Money. Franklin: How so? Peoples: There were no jobs. Franklin: In Kildare? Peoples: Anywhere, practically. But when the war effort started, then jobs were created. And so you basically went to where the jobs were. I do know that my grandfather had a brother who lived in Seattle. I remember they went to, I believe, Bremerton. And I remember an aunt, my mother’s sister, living in Bremerton. You traveled to where the jobs were. And the families were quite often left behind while the breadwinner was gone. I think there were a lot of very strong women during that time that made sure the family’s needs were met while the breadwinner had to be someplace else. Franklin: Right. Or even some women that were breadwinners themselves that were also helping making sure the family’s needs were met. Peoples: Right. Franklin: So you moved here with your brother, C.J. Was that just to be closer to family, but also for job reasons? Peoples: Well, no, I don’t know why he asked me to come. But he did ask me to come, and there was nothing else for me to do. So it was—when I look back, it was a blessing, actually, rather than say it was a good move. It was actually a blessing. Franklin: Oh, wow. What were your first impressions when you arrived? Peoples: The first thing that happened when I arrived. Well, I rode back with—well, there was six of us in the car. My Aunt Maxine was with us, my Uncle Willie, my brother, and then a first cousin who lived in Pasco, her husband and his brother were with us. And they drove to Texas together for the funeral. And I rode back with them. We first went to my uncle’s house in Pasco; that was Uncle Willie. C.J. had left his car with them there. And we got in the car and we drove home, we drove to Richland. And it was late at night and the next morning, when we all got up, up in the day, my sister-in-law said—she told me that a friend of mine was staying with her aunt, well, it was actually the next street over. During that day, she said to her two-year-old, why don’t you take Emma up to your friend Bruce’s? And this little toddler took me up to his friend’s. [LAUGHTER] I said, smart kid. He knew exactly where to go. I just walked along with him, and when I got there, I actually saw my—he walked up in the yard, and of course what do kids do when they walk up in the yard? He saw his friend, he went over to play. But my friend that had—she had come up to Washington earlier with her family, and she was at her aunt’s. She and a friend of hers was sitting out in the yard, so I recognized them and she recognized me when I walked up. So that was my first experience. But I don’t know. I just—when I look back now, the way they embraced me and the kids, and right now—that’s why I say this is my second family. They are so very special to me. And they make me feel special. Franklin: That’s really wonderful. So you stayed with C.J. after you arrived. Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Do you remember what house that was? Was it an Alphabet House? Peoples: It was a prefab. A two-bedroom prefab. Now, bear in mind they had four kids. [LAUGHTER] That’s why I say, you know, this had to be a blessing. It was on the corner of Adams and Cullum. No, no, I take that back. Adams and Craighill. Franklin: Wow, two-bedroom. Peoples: The first house we bought was on Adams and Cullum. Franklin: That’s like seven people in a two-bedroom prefab. Peoples: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. That sounds tight. Peoples: Well, they had three boys. The girl was a baby, so she had her crib, and the parents had their room, and Emma slept on the couch. Franklin: Wow. Peoples: We made it work. I say, they made it work. Franklin: And how long did you stay with them? Peoples: Until I was married. I came up in June—no, July of 1957, and I was married in November 29th of 1958. Franklin: Did you meet your husband here? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Did you know him or his family where you came from? Peoples: No. He was stationed at Camp Hanford. Franklin: Oh, okay. Peoples: Actually, the first time I remember—well, wait a minute. The first time I met him, there was—my friend Carolyn Barton and another friend, Catherine Perry, and Lula Mae Tate, we all went to the same church. There was a lady that had—it was a restaurant, and she had some—I think they were three apartments or something like that. But it was kind of like a ballroom. It wasn’t a ballroom, but it was a small room and she would let kids have sock hops there. But there was no liquor, none of that. Her place was strictly food. So you didn’t—but the guys from Camp Hanford would come down there because they loved her chicken. Franklin: Was this Virgie’s Chicken Shack? Peoples: Virginia’s Chicken Shack, yes. Anyway, this particular Friday night, I had gone over and we went down to the sock hop. I went with Carolyn and Catherine and Lula Mae. There were some guys there—that’s where I actually met him. There was another guy with him, his last name I think was Rogers. But anyway, I don’t know why they were there, but they were. That’s where I met him. But they also—I never saw the other guy, but he would also come to our church sometimes. That was New Hope. Franklin: New Hope, okay. I was just about to ask you that. Where was your husband from? Peoples: His hometown was Forrest City, Arkansas. Franklin: Oh, okay. Was that— Peoples: Eastern Arkansas, it’s about 40 miles east of Memphis, Tennessee. Franklin: Oh, okay. Peoples: Right on what is now Interstate 40. Franklin: And what is your husband’s name? Peoples: His first name was, I’m going to spell it for you. Everyone called him Al. Well, actually, they called him Peoples. Because with the military, everyone is last names. But his first name is Alpheus, A-L-P-H-E-U-S. Franklin: I can say I’ve never heard that name before. Peoples: It’s a Biblical name. Franklin: It sounds Biblical. Alpheus Peoples. Peoples: Yes. Franklin: After you got here, what was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Peoples: I don’t know. I don’t know. I think being surrounded by family made things so much easier, because it was not just my brother, C.J., and his family. Like I said, I would go over on Saturday nights, I would spend the night either with the Bartons or at my uncle Vanis’. And I would go to church with them on Sunday morning, with Carolyn mainly, on Sunday morning because we went to the same church. But I also had a cousin that lived on the next corner, on Craighill. Franklin: Who was that? Peoples: On Abbott and Craighill. The Rockamores. Franklin: Rockamores, okay. That’s a name I’ve heard several times. Peoples: Yes. Now that was my father’s niece. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: And they were—well, I always, when I thought about it, I thought about the fact that they—I felt they treated me more like a younger sister than a cousin. But our families in Texas were very close. Franklin: It really seems like a lot of your family migrated—moved from Kildare. Seems like a pretty sizable chunk of Kildare moved up here. Peoples: Absolutely, absolutely. Because when one person found out there were jobs, then they let the other people know. There were people that came and didn’t stay, but there were quite a few that did. Franklin: It wasn’t just the job itself; the pay here was also greater than it would have been for an equivalent job in Texas, right? Peoples: In the first place, there was no equivalent job in Texas. And in the second place, the wages were almost non-existent. I mean, you worked a lot of hours for not much money there. So they came here and the ones who did not move their families here came and they sent money back to take care of their families. Sometimes eventually the families moved here and sometimes they didn’t. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you went to New Hope Church. What role did church play in the community in general? Peoples: In my life, it was always the center, basically, of life. I’m going to tell you this, because this is what I told a group of people that—I was wanting their vote. Franklin: Wanting their vote? Peoples: I ran for national office in an organization, and I had to go to the caucuses. When I went, I introduced myself and I started out with where I grew up and I said, I was raised by a widowed mother who was a very strong single parent. I went on to say, every time the church door opened, my mother made sure all those little Mitchells walked through it. So we went to church more than anybody else in town. That was our lives. Everyone in Kildare—I don’t know of anyone in Kildare who did not have a very high respect for my mother. I mean, we even went to church on Thanksgiving Day. Franklin: Wow. That’s impressive. Peoples: That was the one thing I missed, and when I went to Texas one year after that, after I had been away, and I wanted to be there on Thanksgiving Day. But they no longer had church on Thanksgiving Day. So that was something that I remembered. You hold onto your beliefs and what you remember and it doesn’t always work out the way you would hope. Franklin: Why do you think church was so important for your mother, why she passed that on to you? Peoples: I think it’s just a strong belief in Christ. And no matter where I go, and whether I’m—I’m not in church every Sunday, but it still is very—that life is still very important to me. Franklin: Yeah. And the church also plays a very prominent role in the black community in general, right? Peoples: Yes. But it doesn’t have to be a black church. It can be—I was a military wife. And when you are away from home and you don’t know where the closest church is, you go to the chapel, which is what I did. I went to the chapel. Franklin: Great. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including sports and food that people brought from the places they came from? Peoples: You mean traditionally? Franklin: Yeah, like different types of traditions or customs that people would have brought from Kildare up to Washington. Peoples: I don’t know. Franklin: What about food? Did you or C.J., the Mitchells, did your family cook Southern food, soul food, or— Peoples: Well, that depends on what you call soul food. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: I love to cook. There are some things I don’t do. I’m not a cookie-baker. And I don’t do a lot of pies. However, I do do sweet potato pie. Franklin: Okay, because that’s a staple, right? Peoples: Well, my older sister didn’t really care for sweet potato pie, but I love sweet potato pie. I have a granddaughter—actually, she’s a great-granddaughter. When she was—oh, she was maybe two-and-a-half, close to three, maybe, and the family was living with me at the time, and I had baked pies the night before, and I left them on the counter, on a rack, right by the stove. They was just sitting there on the counter. She got up before anyone else that morning, and she went into the kitchen and she saw the pies. She didn’t touch one of them, but the other one, she took her little finger and she ate pie until she thought she had enough. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, she went back in the bedroom and by that time her dad’s up, and she walks in and he looks at her and she’s got all this orange stuff all over her face. He gets, evidently, a look that—she looks up at him, he said, and she gave him this great big grin and said, oh, Daddy, that’s good pie. [LAUGHTER] So that’s the sweet potato pie. However, my thing is—well, Christmas Eve was always a special time for us. And when I say us, I’m saying C.J. and me. We always got together on Christmas Eve. We started that because when our kids were small, we thought they would be happier at home with their toys or whatever on Christmas morning, but we did want the family time. So we did Christmas Eve. And then he told me once that he wanted Christmas Eve at his house. Okay, that’s fine. So he said, when I was growing up, he said, I could not open a gift until Christmas morning. If we’re at my house, I can open my gifts any time I get ready. So. But Christmas Eve was very special for us. I’ve gotten to the point—now, I don’t feel physically up to doing like the big dinners we used to do for Christmas Eve or whenever. So this past Christmas Eve, I just decided we’ll have dessert night. So I said, everybody, if you have someplace else to go, you can just stop by. You don’t have to stay; just stop by, have dessert and go on to wherever you want to go. And that worked out really quite well. I think that’s probably—we’ll try doing that more. But what I told them, I said, what I will do, I will try to have everybody’s favorite cake. When I said that to my nephew, Robin, he said, well, I’m sure that if you don’t have everybody’s favorite, they’ll make do with whatever you have. It’ll be fine. But it turned out quite well. I know my one nephew, they were going to church Christmas Eve, so they stopped by on the way to church. That was basically what I was hoping for. If you had something else that was traditional that you wanted to do on Christmas Eve, that’s fine. But if you have a chance, just stop by and have dessert. Go on your way if you choose. But when my nephews were growing up, I made it a point to—these are the three oldest ones. I always made them a birthday cake on their birthday. They always got a birthday cake from me. Franklin: That’s Duke— Peoples: Duke, Greg— Franklin: Greg, and Cameron? Peoples: No, Nestor. Cameron asked his mom once if she would ask me to bake him a birthday cake. Now this is her—the way, what she told me. She said, he told him, no, I will not. And she said, because if you want her to bake you a birthday cake, you ask her yourself. So he did. And I did. But like I said, I like to cook and I like to think I’m a good cook. So that is one of the things I enjoy doing. Franklin: What about the Juneteenth celebration? I understand that originated in Texas, right? Was that a— Peoples: I don’t know that it originated in Texas. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: Because—what year was it? I forget the exact time, but my two sisters and I went to Springfield, Missouri. And I had never heard of it—I had never heard it called Juneteenth until then. There was a lady there that said something to the effect that it was actually August 4th, was the celebration. So I don’t know, different states, evidently, celebrate that particular event at different times. But what I learned in history was that it was the June 19th when they actually got the message of the Emancipation. Although it had been declared, what, three years earlier or something to that effect. But actually I don’t know how or where the Juneteenth celebration started, but like I said, I’d never heard it called Juneteenth. It was just referred to as the 19th of June. Franklin: Interesting. Peoples: But maybe that’s growing up in a small place like Kildare, that—I don’t know what the official—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Peoples: Do you want something that happens right now? Franklin: Sure. Peoples: It’s still out there. It is still out there. So, I don’t know what I should say about that. Franklin: Okay, that’s important to say that it’s still out there. Peoples: Because you will find, and it is not limited to small organizations; it is not limited to small businesses; it’s out there, big-time. And you will find that—well, if I say this, I would ask you not to put it on—but just for information. I work at Wal-Mart. I see segregation every day. Franklin: How so? Peoples: I’ll relate one thing that pertains to me, but I feel that at this point in my life, I am strong enough, I’ll just say, in my own skin, in my own right, that I will not let it hinder me from doing what I choose to do. Number one, they will find reasons that you don’t need certain options or you don’t need certain—they judge you. They feel you can’t do this; you’re not capable of doing this, when I know in my own self that I am just as capable as anyone in that store. And I said that to one manager one day. He said, I understand that you wanted to learn more about merchandising. I said, oh really? I don’t know, where’d you get that? Well, someone told me you wanted to learn more about merchandising. I said, well, I don’t really think so. I say, because, to be truthful with you, I would go so far as to say that I know more about merchandizing than anyone in this store. Which, I felt was true, and I still feel that it’s true. Because it’s not because I’m doing a particular job now that I’m not capable of doing anything more. But I wanted to say to her, if I were in charge of merchandizing, the store would look a lot better than it does now. Because number one, that’s not my first retail job. I mean, I’m not a member of management at Wal-Mart because I choose not to be a member of management at Wal-Mart. I have other things that are important to me now. But I have worked in management in retail a number of times. I actually managed the plus sizes and maternity at JC Penney before I even thought about Wal-Mart. This sort of thing. I was in management with Macy’s back in, oh, 1970s. You know? I chose to leave retail, because I had a family, and my family, when they were small, it was important to me to be home to get them off to school. When they got to be in junior high, I thought it was important for me to be home at night and not getting off at 9:00 at night, because my schedule was usually 12:30 to 9:00. I chose to go do something different. That’s when I went to work for Hanford. Because I was home—they were old enough that they could get to school, or I could drop them off at school. But I felt that I needed to be home in the evening with my teenagers. Franklin: Yeah. Peoples: So that’s why I made that choice. But had I stayed with retail, I could’ve been anywhere I want to be. I don’t think it is—so when they try to look at you and feel you are not capable of doing something, as I say, it’s not important to me now. But it doesn’t make me think it’s right. But I am that person who, if I am going to go to work at Wal-Mart, which I do, 40 hours a week usually, I don’t go in there to make friends, I don’t go in there to play up to anybody, I do not go in there to stand around and visit. I will stop and talk to a customer. That’s the customer. It’s—I’m supposed to talk to the customer, and I feel that is important. You need that rapport with your customer. But as far as just standing around, killing time—that’s not me. If I’m going to be there, I need to be busy. And if I’m going to be there, if I am responsible for making sure these items are in the right place on the shelf or whatever my job is, that is what I’m there to do. I’m not there to— So, it’s still out there, but I don’t let it affect me as it might have at one time. Because, number one, I get to walk every day and I get paid for walking. [LAUGHTER] But I do my job. And that is what is important to me. Franklin: Yeah. You grew up in a segregated world. The Tri-Cities wasn’t segregated by law or outright, but was there an informal type of segregation that existed here? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Was it something you could see? Were there any incidences that stand out to you? Peoples: Well, it was actually shortly after I came here. There were several that were called a teenage club in Richland, for a place that teenagers could go, and some kids from Pasco and I know one from Richland that went over there, and they ended up in court over that. My friend Carolyn was one of them. Franklin: Did they sue the club, or was there a— Peoples: I don’t remember the particulars, but they did go to court. And I believe they lost. Franklin: They were denied— Peoples: They were denied, yes. Franklin: I think I saw that in some of the old newspapers that we have. Peoples: Yeah. And then Kennewick was the place that no one of color was allowed. I actually worked with a lady once that—this would have been in the ‘70s, early ‘70s—and her husband worked out in the Area. But he built houses. She worked in the next department from me at Macy’s. And she said they would build a house and they would live in it until they sold it, and then he would build another. He just did this, I say, on the side. But she said that they sold a house to a couple, actually, the couple was Oriental. And she said some of the people that they thought were friends of theirs stopped speaking to them because they sold the house to someone they didn’t approve of. But segregation is still out there. [LAUGHTER] A person that I worked with at one point at Wal-Mart said to the person that was store manager at the time that—they would take people to the corporate meetings every once in a while that choose someone, say, you get to go this time or whatever. Anyway, how they do it I don’t know, but he said to her, I would really like to have a chance to go to the corporate meeting sometime. And he happened to be Hispanic. And she said to him, I really don’t think that you are the—what did she say? Not the picture but—the image that Wal-Mart wants to show. So he looked at her and he said he smiled and said, oh, do you mean that’s because I’m bald? But he knew exactly what she was saying. But, see, things like that, I mean, you would think that people would be smart enough now not to go there. I mean. But you see it all the time. But as far as African Americans are concerned, it’s still there. It’s definitely still there. Franklin: Yeah. I want to talk a bit about your work at Hanford. What sort of work did you do? Peoples: When I first went out there, I worked in the mailroom as a mail messenger. Franklin: Was that in the 300? Peoples: That was in the 300 Area. Franklin: And then what— Peoples: And I went from there to what they called Engineering Files; you processed all the documents that came through. And this was in support of the FFTF. Franklin: That was a long project. What on-the-job training did you receive, if any? Peoples: Well, first of all, I had to learn my mail route. [LAUGHTER] But there was quite a bit of training. Any job you took, there would be some form of training. But I worked mostly in—I went from the mailroom to engineering files and then I went to FFTF Engineering. I actually was the liaison between the drafting section and the finance people. Forget what they were called now. But anyway, at any time we had—I worked strictly for engineering, so anytime there were documents that had to be signed, drafting prints that had to be signed, we were more or less the gofers, the go-between. We took the documents from one group to the other and made sure the documents were signed and signed off properly. And then later I worked in what was called Fuels and Controls, and that was all of the fuel—I was in the group, all of the fuel rods that went into the FFTF were analyzed and assayed in our group. Franklin: Oh. And what did you do for that group? Peoples: I was the clerical support. Made sure all, there again, the documents were signed off properly and the documents went to the right place, and to research whatever we needed in support of those documents. Franklin: How long did you work out at Hanford total? Peoples: 23 years. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. So quite a while. And probably for a litany of contractors? Peoples: Actually, no, I worked for Westinghouse all while I was there. Franklin: The entire time? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Oh, wow. That’s kind of a rarity. Peoples: Well, actually, they were the ones that were in charge of building FFTF, and then later I worked in security for them. Franklin: What did you do in security? Peoples: The last position I had was, we had documents, again, that needed to be signed. But a lot of it was safety, security—SQS, safety, quality assurance, and security. I actually was the person that, in support of, here again, clerical support, but my one position—one job I had was to take all of the—when they went to the computers and so on, I had to actually take the directories from all three groups. The secretaries would send them to me, and I had to roll all of that into one directory for the entire SQS group. So that was interesting. And that was the computer part. That was really the start of the computer part that I did out there. So you got training in support of any job that you did. There were actually CBC courses and WSU courses that were open to train you for whatever your job was. Franklin: Yeah. Did you acquire any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Peoples: Well, I think everything. Because, number one, dealing with people. Also, being able to get along with people. Well, people skills, I’ll put it that way. Sometimes, you know, you have to think about the better way to do things, rather than the fastest way. And I think I learned a sense of responsibility. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors? Peoples: You mean now? Franklin: When you were at Hanford? Peoples: Or there? I thought they were very good. I had some of the best management, I think. I’m not saying everybody was tip-top, but for the most part, I felt my management was very good. I thought a very good relationship with my management. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? Peoples: At Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Peoples: I thought quite well. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Peoples: Not much. Not a lot. Because of, number one, I’m a very strong family person. And number two, it’s just not something I did a lot of, outside of work. I have always, more or less, separated work from personal things. I had a—there were two things that I remember when I was in high school, the one teacher used to say—a famous word of his was, or famous saying is, business is one thing and friendship’s another. I have always tried to remember that. Because it doesn’t matter whether you are the friend or not. If it has to do with a job, you get the job done. You don’t let friendship enter into it. And the other one was—this was a different teacher, and he would say, a wise man will not insult you. And you always try to be wise enough that a fool cannot do so. Those are the two things that, from my high school, that I remember, that I have thought about a lot in my life. As far as—now, like I said, I work at Wal-Mart, there are people there—there is one lady there that I have watched—I’ve known her for like 12 years, and I have so much admiration for her and her family that, she’s just a very special person in my eyes. And there are other people that, I mean, I will deal with you if I have to, but I’m not going to go out of my way. But when you see someone with so much respect and such family values that mirrors so much of what you believe in, I don’t know, it just makes you admire that person. Franklin: Yeah. How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Peoples: Well. There is always someone that thinks that they can say certain things or do certain things, and you’re just supposed to smile and go on. But it doesn’t work that way. I am, I think, very strong in my own right. And like I say, I don’t go to a job expecting any favors. I go there to get the job done. That is the bottom line. I just don’t work any other way. Franklin: In what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Peoples: Well, when you think of it now, if what happens on the job—are you meaning with people or with my family or--? Franklin: Just in general. How did the nature of the job and the security and secrecy impact you? Peoples: It was just, in my opinion, a part of the job. But the one thing that I saw other people do that I never did, and that was, my husband worked for Battelle. I worked for Westinghouse. We didn’t discuss our work at home. Because number one—and I was not always saying, well, you know, Al did this at work or this, that or the other. That wasn’t my thing. We didn’t do that. And we did not call each other at work unless it was a really good reason for me to call. And for me to go to his building—the only time I went to the building where he worked was when I was on my mail route. Or had to go to that building for a reason. In other words, we didn’t—we weren’t someone that couldn’t go five minutes without calling each other. Because you go out there to do a job, and that’s any job. You don’t— Franklin: What kind of work did your husband do? Peoples: He worked in the lab in 325. It was chemistry. And it was, in fact, I think he was in that for most of the time he was there. That was—where he worked, it was—oh, how do you describe it? They had all kinds of research and stuff going on in the group that he worked in. And there are, not in his name, but a lot of patents that he actually worked on that are not in his name. But that was the type of work he did. And he said one day, the one thing he did say to me, one day he said, you know, the kind of work that I do—we do work for a lot of different people. He said, and the worst thing that we can do is to have one vendor know what you’re doing for someone else. So that was the type of way that we worked. He didn’t discuss what he was doing. Because it was research. And that’s just—if you have to discuss that, then you maybe are in the wrong area. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Is your husband still alive? Peoples: No. Franklin: Okay. And when did he pass away? Peoples: 1994. Franklin: Oh, so some time ago then. Peoples: Actually, I buried him one day before my 54th birthday. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Peoples: And he worked at Hanford for a lot of years. Much longer than I did. Franklin: Was he always out in 300? Peoples: Well, he was in—actually, they went to 2-West once for about a year, and he was actually in the same building and the same lab and basically with the same chemist most of that time. Franklin: And he was brought out here by the Army at the Hanford Camp? Peoples: He was military. He was stationed at Camp Hanford. And when they sent him to Camp Hanford, he had no idea where he was. He’d never heard of it. Lots of people never have yet. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And then he decided to stay after— Peoples: Actually, when he was discharged, we came back. Franklin: Okay. That’s right, because you followed him— Peoples: We were—our last duty station was in Fort Hood, Texas. Before that, he was actually in southeast Asia, during when the Vietnam thing escalated, when they had the August 4th bombing, the Bay of Tonkin, the boats, he was actually over in that area at the time. He was evacuated out. It was August 4th, he was evacuated out later that year. Franklin: What was it that made you want to come back? Peoples: I had family here. Franklin: And he was just willing to come, and--? Peoples: He had friends here, too, and, well, like I say, I have two families. When we came back from Germany—well, actually when we came back from Germany we were stationed at Fort Lewis. And then from Fort Lewis to San Francisco, the Presidio, and then to Fort Hood, Texas, where he was discharged at Fort Hood. We had in the meantime bought a house here. Franklin: Okay. So you had planned on coming back. Peoples: So, we came back. Well, we didn’t plan to come back that soon, but—when he went to Thailand, the kids and I needed a place to live. So the house was available, we bought the house, and that’s where we stayed. We were a block from C.J. Franklin: So you must have bought a prefab then? Peoples: No, it was a precut. Franklin: A precut, right. Peoples: Right. Franklin: Okay, and how long did you live in that house for? Peoples: Oh, that was ’64. I don’t remember for sure. When did we move? We moved to Blue Street. Oh, ’67. Franklin: Oh, okay. Peoples: No it wasn’t; it had to have been ’68, because we came back here in ’67 from Fort Hood. Franklin: For your work, or for your husband’s work, how did you feel at the time, during the Cold War, about working for the development of nuclear weapons? Peoples: I don’t know that we gave it a lot of thought. Because research is research. Al was mostly in research. And when I went out to Hanford, it was in support of the FFTF, and it was a test reactor that would—and it was more or less fuel. Fuels and controls, I believe, was the title. So I didn’t think of it was nuclear weapons. Franklin: How do you feel now about your experiences, having worked out there? Peoples: I think it was good experience. I would not—I can’t think of anything that I would trade. It also, you know, you do interact with a lot of different people. A lot of different people. That is one of the reasons that I feel at this point in my life I can feel comfortable, I’ll just say, in my own skin, and not be that concerned about what anybody else is doing out there. Franklin: What did you—when you came to the area in the ‘50s, what did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Peoples: I didn’t. Because at that time, everything was secretive. That was the time that if you left work and you forgot to lock your file, you could be fired. Franklin: Yeah. From your perspective, what were the most important contributions of African Americans at Hanford? Peoples: At Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Peoples: I don’t really know. I don’t really know. Franklin: Okay. In the civil rights era—this is kind of what my next set of questions is about—what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Peoples: I don’t really know, because I was more or less, up until I was married, it was more like family time, or church, and I worked at a dress shop in Uptown Richland here. It was called Hugh’s Women’s Apparel. As far as Hanford was concerned, it was not something I had a lot of knowledge about. Franklin: What about for African Americans in general here? Were there any civil rights issues that were important to folks that you knew of? For example, kind of the lack of services in east Pasco or the treatment of African Americans in Kennewick, the sundown laws? Peoples: Well, sundown laws was before I came here. But I do know that—well, I just know rumors. I didn’t actually know— Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Peoples: No. Franklin: Okay. Then I think that is about—that’s all my civil rights activities questions. Peoples: Well, you know, I was a military wife. When you went to—our first duty station away from here was Germany. When I was in Germany, I went to the post chapel. I didn’t go to the—I went to the Protestant service. There were no African American churches. But I wanted to go to church, so I went to the chapel. So when we came back, when we were at Presidio, San Francisco, I went to the post chapel. When we went to Fort Hood, I went to the post chapel. I took my kids to the post chapel. You know, this sort of thing. When we moved into our house up on Cullum, I don’t know how they got the information, probably from the city, new residents, or new whatever. The people who came to welcome us to Richland and to invite us to their church was from Richland Baptist. And having the experience at the post chapel, I did not have a problem with that. So that’s where we went. Franklin: What do you mean you didn’t have a problem with that? Peoples: Because, well, I didn’t feel that I had to go to an African American church. Franklin: Oh, I see. Peoples: I had become accustomed to worshipping where there was to worship. Whether it was the post chapel or whether it was a small church. Franklin: Were you the only African Americans that went to Richland Baptist? Peoples: No. Franklin: Were there others? Peoples: Well, the Mitchells went there before we did. And then there was Shirleys, the Shirleys went there. And the Abercrombies went there. Franklin: Okay. So really more of a community church than a strict African American—you just felt, you went where the church was closest. Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Okay, that makes sense. Peoples: Now, if you’re in Heidelberg, Germany, there aren’t going to be too many African American churches. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s very true! Peoples: But they had a church service there, not too far from our quarters that you could drive or you could walk, it was that close. So that’s what I chose to do. Franklin: When did your work at Hanford come to an end? Peoples: 1996. Franklin: And what did you do afterwards? Peoples: Well, I devoted my time to the American Legion Auxiliary. Franklin: Is that the national organization that you mentioned earlier? Peoples: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Peoples: In fact, I had gone—the day that my—actually, it was my second national convention that I came back, and they had—there was a notice on my email that they were having involuntary—oh, let’s see. Involuntary reduction of force. But you could volunteer for it. If you chose. Franklin: That sounds like Hanford. Peoples: So that’s what I did. Franklin: Kind of like an early retirement. Peoples: That’s what it was. But in 1995, my husband and I had discussed this earlier, when he was still alive, I told him that I really wanted to go through the chairs up the ladder for the American Legion Auxiliary. So when do you—I said, when I really make the decision, it’ll take me three years to reach that point. And I said, when do you think would be a good time for me to start? So we’d talked about it, and I’d actually been endorsed by my unit for second vice president in 1991—for 1991. Then I found out that there was someone from Cheney that had also been endorsed, and I had decided in my own mind that I would never oppose anyone from the east side. So I didn’t send my endorsement in. However, it was like two months later that we had the meeting with my husband’s nephrologist and I asked him, after he explained everything, I asked him, would you be comfortable in giving us a prognosis? And he said, well, the way I see it, I would say he has three to six months. So, I said, well, I would have had to back away anyway. So I didn’t do anything. So he lived another three-and-a-half years. So after he was gone, I decided the next year that I would go for second vice president again. So I wrote a letter to each one of the units in the state introducing myself and telling them what my plans were. I made it clear that the reason that I had not been active for three years previous was because of my husband. I felt that if anyone, knowing why I was not there, votes against me for that reason, so be it. So I went for that office. That was 1995, and I did have competition. There were two of us. When the vote was announced, I was the one that was the winner. So I took that position, but when I took that position, I made a commitment. And the person who opposed me actually ran again the following year and was successful, and she ended up being—we ended up being—I had to go second vice president, first vice president, and then you go in as president. She ended up being my first vice president. We had a wonderful relationship. That was—I mean, it’s just, I couldn’t have had anyone more supportive. I could not have had anyone that did a better job of keeping me informed of everything that she was doing and so on. We had, I’ll say, the two of us, we had two really, really good years. But I made that commitment, and after that, well, we put Washington on the map. We did a really fantastic job, got all kinds of compliments from the national organization, and then I got an appointment for the following year as a member of, what I think, one of the most important committees on the national level, and that was the Americanism Committee. So I did get a national appointment every year for about five years. Then I decided that—well, I had actually promised one of our past state presidents that I would go for national office. So I really wanted to be national chaplain. So I went for that office. And I actually had competition from Kentucky, part of the Bible Belt. And I actually ended up with more than two—almost two-thirds of the total national vote. Franklin: Wow, that’s quite a resounding victory. Peoples: I thought so. And I had the national president, several times during her year, to tell me that she was so happy that I was her national chaplain. Franklin: That’s really great. Peoples: That’s something that, I will cherish that for a long, long time. I don’t have to be national president or something like that. I was happy being national chaplain. And it was more or less, with my background and my beliefs. The one thing that was unique—or maybe not unique, but—it is a non-denominational organization. You must be very, very careful with your articles and everything. When our Washington State Public Relations chairman called me one day to interview me and she wanted to know how I think about it. I didn’t know she was going to put it in the paper, but she did—but I made the statement to her, was that, I know it is a non-denominational organization, and I will never intentionally offend anyone or their religion. But I say, I will never deny my Christianity. So I had a good year as chaplain, too. So it’s one I’ll remember for a long time. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Peoples: Actually, I don’t know that there’s much I could tell them. Because, number one, I didn’t see it as the Cold War. I saw it as a research project. It wasn’t focused on the bomb anymore when I was there. It was focused more on research and the things that are important to our survival, like the power that FFTF could have generated. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, segregation, and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities and at Hanford? Peoples: Well, in the Tri-Cities, the one thing I remember and the one thing I mentioned a little bit about this earlier, and that was with the families that—well, I’ll just say Kildare. When I came here, it was like I wasn’t just one person. I was part of—it made me feel like I was part of a huge family. Because I remember the—sometimes—well, on Sunday mornings, the Browns, Mr. Brown, they would come by and pick me up to go to church. You know, this sort of thing. Things like that. So in other words, I guess I would call it outreach and just the way they embraced me as a person, just because I was from Kildare. And they would go out of their way to, I guess, make me feel comfortable. Franklin: That’s great. Well, Emma, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to talk to us today. Peoples: I hope I didn’t bore you too much. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, no, it was wonderful. It was great. Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area FFTF Fuels and Controls Westinghouse Battelle 325 Building 200 West Area Camp Hanford Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1957- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1973-1996 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emma Peoples Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Migration Segregation Description An account of the resource Emma Peoples moved to Richland, Washington in 1957 as a teenage and worked on the Hanford Site from 1973-1996. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/02/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe4e50841d285d72b4528d830e3088d31.JPG 6cc82704ef009805ffaeed10b387016f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9feca12a12b9e9cbfd55292b8456d72a.mp4 ddd27f490df8e74a98061feb5126553c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emmitt Ray Jackson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Emmitt—it’s Emmitt Jackson? Emmitt Jackson: Correct. Emmitt Ray Jackson. Franklin: Emmitt Ray Jackson, on March 23rd, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Emmitt about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name? Jackson: It’s Emmitt, E-M-M-I-T-T, Ray, R-A-Y, and then Jackson, J-A-C-K-S-O-N. Ray is important because my mom entrenched that into me. You know when you’re young and she says, never let anyone call you out of their name. Franklin: What do you mean by that? Jackson: Oh, you know, well, growing up, being one of the first black families here in the Tri-Cities and Richland, and growing up and you’re really into an all-white school or neighborhood and that type of thing, you know, there’s a lot of—in that time in the ‘50s, there’s a lot of people getting used to each other and understanding their ways. You know, you being different and as far as the color goes, you were sometimes a target, okay. We have people coming from all over the country here, so it wasn’t—you didn’t know what kind of individuals, their background or where they were from and what their culture was and how they were raised. So it was easy to single you out, if you will, or to say, oh, there’s one of those, whatever “those” is. So that’s always stood with me. Franklin: Gotcha. Emmitt, where and when were you born? Jackson: June 5th, 1950 in Kadlec Methodist Hospital. And you know if you’re born in the Kadlec Methodist Hospital, you’re a native, because it was the old Army hospital in Richland. Franklin: Right. Yeah. So you were born here in Richland. Jackson: Yes. Franklin: Where did your parents move here from? Jackson: From Louisiana. Shreveport, Baton Rouge. My grandparents and mom then came up from California up to here because they heard there was jobs here. Franklin: And when did your family come to the area? Jackson: Oh, man, they were in—probably, I don’t know exactly. My sister was born here, too, Joyce. Franklin: Older or younger? Jackson: Older. Franklin: Okay. Jackson: Joyce, so she was two years older than me. There’s ten of us in our family; we’re all like two years apart. Franklin: Wow, that’s a big family. Jackson: Yeah, it is. So ’47, ’48. I’m not quite sure about that. Franklin: Your parents moved to Richland? Jackson: They moved—well, actually, to north Richland, to the trailer courts. Franklin: Okay. So your parents, from the moment they moved here, were connected to Hanford. Jackson: Yes. Franklin: And what did your—did both your parents work out there initially, or how--? Jackson: See, my father—my step-father, that’s who I really know--my father worked out—he was in the Army. And at that time it was a military—you had the military here. So, when the military broke up—I’m sorry, when the trailer courts broke up, then we moved to Richland. 409 Robert in Richland. That was, oh, jeez, I wasn’t in grade school then, so that was somewhere like ’54, something like that. But my sister went to John Ball Grade School in north Richland. You know what’s interesting about all that, I don’t know if you know who Joe Essie is, but he’s a trainer out here. So we were talking one day about segregation and integration and all that. And he was talking about segregated communities, and I go, you know what, Joe? I actually lived in a segregated community. Because north Richland, you know, the trailer courts were divided. You had your black section and then you had your white section as well. So it was interesting. But I never knew the difference; I was young. Franklin: What did your stepfather do out on Site? Why was he there? Jackson: You know, the way I understand it from Vanis—Vanis told me this, is that when the trailer courts broke up, I think it was DuPont or GE here at the time. A lot of the Afro-Americans moved to Pasco, and a lot of them went to work at the railroad or went to work for the construction. My stepfather was one of the first ones to go to work for the contractor. So he went to work out at the Site for GE. He was a janitor. He worked 24/7. Franklin: Yeah? Jackson: Well, yes, you know, ten kids. In fact, he was a janitor here at—what was it? Franklin: The Joint Center? Jackson: The Joint Center for Graduate Studies. He was a janitor down at Joint Center for Graduate Studies on Lee Boulevard. We spent many a day in there washing and waxing, mopping them floors and that type of things. Our treat was great, because we used to go to Zip’s and we’d get hamburgers and fries and milkshakes. So then when they moved it out here, he was a janitor out here. He was the first janitor here. He worked at Lourde electric in the evenings. He did a lot of work on the side in the evenings as well. Franklin: Right, working hard to support—for a big family. Jackson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: What do you know about your parents’ lives before they came to Hanford? Jackson: Okay, my mother grew up in Shreveport, Louisiana and she—as much as she went to school there, she went to college there for a couple years, and then they moved up here. Then she started raising a family, yes. And she was a mother—that’s all I’ve known, she’s been a mother, yeah. Raised kids, she raised ten kids: six boys, four girls. She also babysitted. She raised a lot of other kids here as well. She did that for quite a long time. She spoiled each and every one of her kids. [LAUGHTER] It’s interesting, because we think about now—because my daughter and how she was raised, you’re always trying to do better for them and make it easier for them and that type of thing. People talk about—I can remember growing up, and kids—because I played sports and stuff, and I can remember a lot of times the guys would say, god, I got to get home because we’re having steak for dinner! We didn’t know what steak was. It was like, neck bones and ham hocks and red beans and rice and greens and cornbread, and different things like that. So it was pretty interesting, the cultures and just the learning that went on while we were growing up here in this community. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. How long did your stepfather work out at Hanford? Jackson: Oh, man, jeez. Man, I’d have to look that up. He was out there for 30 years. Well, you think about it, let me see if I can go back. Let’s see. So I was in the service, so, ’50, ’72, came home started working ’77, ’78, ’79. He probably passed away about ’80. So I would think about 30 years. Yes. Franklin: Did he ever talk about his work? Jackson: No. We knew what he did. And in fact, he worked at the building that was up a ways here. Franklin: In the 300 Area? Jackson: The 300 Area, yeah, he worked in the 300 Area. In the evenings we would go with him, on weekends and stuff like that, to his other jobs and help him and that type of thing. So we knew what he did and we knew what the work was and that type of thing, yes. When you say work—you know, the one thing I always wondered about though was—he was really good with his hands and carpenter. There wasn’t too many Afro-American craft people out here, right? So I always wondered, well, how come he never got the opportunity to go into one of those crafts? That’s always bugged me. Will always bugged me. Franklin: Felt like maybe there had been a ceiling there or maybe an expectation of black workers at that time? Jackson: Well, there’s definitely a ceiling, yes. Because when Hanford was being built, you had your black dorms and mess halls and everything was separated out there. Franklin: Did he talk about working in any other areas, or was he mostly in the 300 Area? Jackson: He was mostly in the 300 Area, yes. Franklin: Okay. So you initially grew up in a segregated area of the Hanford—the north Richland trailer camp, which is different from the trailers in the construction camp. Jackson: Correct. Franklin: And then you moved into the town of Richland. Jackson: Right. Franklin: So moving into the town of Richland, that would’ve—Richland was a closed city, in that you had to be employed by GE or doing government work to live there, but was it a segregated area? Jackson: No. We lived on 409 Robert which was right off of Thayer, across—it was a two-block street, and across from on the other side of Masonic Temple and Richland Baptist Church. And then Shirleys, the other black family that lived out by Denzo’s, and then the Wallaces lived below the hill, the Lewis and Clark area. And the Rockamores lived down there, and the Mitchells lived down there, too, as well. Let’s see, what is that? One, two—and then a little bit later, the Bakers came and they lived right behind us on Rossell Street. So we’re all scattered around. Franklin: But you can, it seems like you can distinctly remember the black families in Richland. Jackson: Oh, yes, of course. We—[LAUGHTER]—oh, yeah. There wasn’t many of us. It was like, you’re alone sometimes. So, yeah, we knew each other and we recognized each other whenever we saw each other and that type of thing. Franklin: When so many other African Americans had moved to east Pasco, whether by design—whether by—because east Pasco was unofficially-slash-officially the black area of the Tri-Cities— Jackson: Correct. Franklin: So many families had moved there and had a very vibrant black community was there, did your family feel a pull to move there, or was there a reason why your parents didn’t move to Pasco and stayed in Richland? Jackson: I don’t know why we moved to Richland, other than maybe it was close here. We bought that house there, 409 Robert. Our grandparents, Mr. and Mrs. Jefferson, they moved up to east Pasco. In fact, they helped to build the Greater Faith Baptist Church there. Our grandfather was a deacon, and our grandmother was in the choir. Franklin: Okay. Jackson: We were always going back and forth from one city to the other. Franklin: So you had a lot of interactions with folks in Pasco. Jackson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. That makes sense. Jackson: You know what’s interesting about that, is that it was like—because most of—the Wallaces and the Browns—oh, I forgot the C.W. Browns, the Browns, they lived on Smith, over by Marcus Whitman. There was always that connection because of athletics and then that type of thing and the competition and all of that. So there was a little—there was always some competition that went on there between us. Franklin: Yeah. Jackson: Yes, and we played for the Bombers, for Richland. We’re quite proud of those connections. Because it always seemed like, going through school, there was someone older than us who would lead the way and chart our path. That type of thing. In fact, Fred Milton. Fred Milton lived out in West Richland, his family. I don’t know if you heard that name before? Franklin: No, I haven’t. Jackson: Well, Fred Milton was—he was a beast. He was very athletic, very powerful. Let’s see, Fred was two years older than me, yeah, two years older than me. Theartis was five years older than me and of course then you had C.W. and Norris Brown, they blazed the trail as well. They’re the oldest. I can remember this one time, this guy was picking on me in junior high. Fred found out and he talked to the guy, and the guy left me alone after that. But you always had that protection. You could go for help or support, which was very, very important. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, right. Jackson: But Fred was—do you know? He was a heck of an athlete, nice guy, nice person. When he was, I believe when he was a senior, you know we had Arctic Circle here, you know where the—what’s the Greek place in Uptown Richland? What is it? It’s—oh, Fat Olives, the Italian place, I’m sorry, Fat Olives, yeah. So Fat Olives is there, used to be an Arctic Circle. Franklin: Sorry, what’s an—is that like a— [camera operator]: A drive-in. Franklin: A drive-in, okay. Jackson: Italian. It’s what? [camera operator]: A burger. Jackson: Oh, I’m sorry. A burger—Burger Ranch is a--you know, in Kennewick, is after them, they’re the same principle. Franklin: Is that like a chain? Jackson: Yeah, it was at that time. It was an Arctic Circle and they had burgers, and, man, that’s where, you know the fry sauce? Franklin: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah, that’s where the fry sauce generated from. Franklin: Oh. ‘Kay. That’s funny, I grew up in Alaska; I feel like if any place I would have heard of that, it would have been there, but you never know. Okay, a drive-in. [camera operator]: You’re from above the Arctic Circle. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] It wasn’t quite above the Arctic Circle. Jackson: And so I can remember one time, they went down to go to lunch there, and they wouldn’t serve him. Franklin: Fred? Jackson: They wouldn’t serve Fred. So the seniors there at school, they boycotted them, boycotted the Arctic Circle. And God, that was in the early—like in ’64. Franklin: Like the entire senior—like, the school seniors? Not just the black seniors, but— Jackson: Yeah, well, there wasn’t—there was only one or two—Bob. Bob was Fred’s brother. There wasn’t many of us around. Franklin: Was that an effective—did they—? Jackson: I don’t really know the outcome, but the fact that they did it, and they did it in Richland was very supportive. It said a lot about how we progress and how we come together as people. Franklin: Right. Wow, that’s really something. How would you describe life in the community growing up in Richland? Jackson: You know, what’s interesting is that—we’re getting ready to have our 50th anniversary, right? And so I can remember, we’d be down—or at Marcus Whitman, that’s the grade school that we went to. The Bakers and I would be down there and there was Theresa Kay, Levon and Levette, they were twins. So we’d be down there swinging or doing playing or something, and inadvertently, some kids would come by on their bikes and call us the magic word. And, man, it was amazing. They’d be on their bikes, and don’t you know the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But of course, they have to go on the pavement, so golly, they could never outrun us. There’s always retribution to be paid. So growing up, you had that kind of stuff. But then on the other hand, you had people that were just the opposite, and just treat you just like people, welcome you into your homes, played with you, your kids and family, that type of thing. I can remember one of our rules was, growing up, is that we could never go into another house. That was one of the rules, that you can never go into someone else’s house. Franklin: Why was that? Jackson: It was—I don’t know. I think it was protection. Because you never knew what to expect and that type of thing. And you didn’t want to be overbearing, if you will. Not knowing—it was virtually an unknown. My parents—everyone came from the South. That’s the way they were raised and their cultures and their attitude. That was one of our rules. But growing up, man, I can talk about my life growing up. I can chart my brother—since I was the second oldest and we had, there’s ten of us, and you can see that the progression of the differences and the change in relationships within their friends and the other families and how people treated them or reacted to them as time went on. And it was a positive. It was really positive. Franklin: Yeah, things trended upward? Jackson: Oh, yes, oh, yeah. Definitely did. Growing up, you had your issues. I can remember one time in high school, there was this—in fact, we were juniors. There was the ASB president. You ran for ASB offices. So one of the guys there was running for office, and Mac Hall was the science hall and math hall. Man, that was taboo for me; I never went over there. Franklin: Why? Jackson: Science and math? Math and I did not compute, did not get along very well, right. I’m a history major, by the way. And you have slogans and you have pictures up and that type of thing. So they had—and in fact, the guy that was on the team, we played ball together. He was from Chief Jo; I was from Carmichael. Carmichael and Chief Jo came together at Col High. So we played ball, sophomores and juniors. At that time, when you’re a junior, you played varsity or you didn’t play. They didn’t have the different teams broke out, sophomore, JV and all that kind of thing. So he was running for office, so there was these slogans, and they had these black kids, stereotypes with big eyes and big lips eating watermelon, right? It was very derogatory. Franklin: in the high school? Jackson: In the high school, in Mac Hall. I never went there, I’d never go over to Mac Hall very—I think I went to typing, had a typing class there or something. No, I had a speech class there with Mr. Law. Anyway, so we went—one day Levon came, and Emmitt, have you seen this? The Harrises were there at that time too. I don’t know if you’ve talked to--run them down, the Harrises? Franklin: I don’t believe so. Jackson: Yeah. So, they came to me and said, Emmitt, have you seen this? I said, no, I haven't seen that. So we went up there and we saw it and I saw it. So then we went to the principal’s office, and they took made them take it down. I’ll never forget this. At that time, they told me, he says, Emmitt—these were the girls—and they said, Emmitt, they treat you different because you’re an athlete. I’ll never forget that. Because you are treated different because you’re an athlete. But particularly, within the community, if you’re playing basketball at Richland, you’re looked at as one of the leaders. Now, everybody, all the boys want to become a Richland basketball player, at that time. That’s what you went for. Franklin: That’s kind of come out in several of our other oral histories, that there was an additional status in there for the athletes and maybe some of it trickled down to the non-athletes, but there was a distinction there that was made and led to a larger acceptance, it seems. Jackson: Mm-hmm, it definitely was. If you’re an athlete, because you’ve got additional contribution for the whole, I guess, is why that is. Franklin: What else did you do in your spare time? Jackson: My spare time. My spare time was around ball. Because, you know, there’s ten kids in my family, and I recognized at an early age that, hey, if I’m going to get to go to college, it’s going to be on a scholarship. So I really—that was my effort. I can remember in ninth grade, Mrs. Black, she was my history teacher at that time. I loved that lady. Washington State history. She made me work, man, but I remember I got an A and I studied for once in my life. I mean, I really cracked that book. She used to tell me, Emmitt, you know what? You know how many people make it into the NBA and go on and this and that? You got to study. You got to get your grades and that type of thing. So she made a difference in my life. Most of my time I was doing athletics, that type of thing, and went to church. We did a lot of fishing, a lot of riding bikes, a lot of listening to music and dancing amongst ourselves. Just trying to enjoy life and get through it. A lot of fishing. Franklin: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah, fishing was good. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events? Jackson: I was involved—one of the things that I’m quite proud of is that Don Dicenzo and I started the Bomber Fallout. That was the radio station that we did. It kept going after we left and for a while, and I don’t know if they do that anymore. But that was quite fun. We reported on different events and different activities that happened at school on the radio, played music and that type of thing. Franklin: Wow, that’s cool. You said you were living in Richland. What type of house were you living in? Jackson: At first it was a three-bedroom prefab. And then we expanded it to another room, another big room. Franklin: That’s still not a huge— Jackson: We had bunk beds. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. Jackson: Yes, we had bunk beds. Franklin: Wow. Did you attend church? Jackson: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Jackson: The First Baptist Church, it was right around the corner on Thayer Drive. And also the Greater Faith Baptist Church. Franklin: And that’s the one in Pasco. Jackson: That’s the one in Pasco. Franklin: What role did churches play in the respective communities? Jackson: We went fishing on Sunday, but we couldn’t go fishing unless we went to church. So we always went to church, always in our white shirts and our Sunday best. Always did that. But then, when you went to church—if you ever went to church in a black church, it’s most of the day—then-days, it was most of the day. So we would go in the morning, and you’d eat at church, and you would go to evening church, evening services as well. So you were there most of the day. It was enjoyable, because there’s kids and you get to listen to the Word. The one thing about it growing up is that you found out that you had more than one mother. Because it didn’t matter if that was son or your daughter, you got reprimanded all the time. So you really learned to be respectful, you learned to treat people with kindness, help people. You learned the godly way of how to live. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. You mentioned this a little bit, but I’m wondering if you could expand. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, which you kind of talked about, that people brought from the places they migrated from? Jackson: We had a lot of barbecue. But I think it was the food, like all portions of the pig, for example. I ate cow brains. I used to love pig feet. We ate neck bones, greens, ham hocks, black-eyed peas, cornbread. All those came from the South, but I’m sure other people that live there had some of that as well. But that’s what we ate. A lot of chicken, a lot of chicken. Lots of chicken, hamburger, that type of thing. Franklin: The cheaper cuts that can feed a family of ten. Jackson: Yes, you feed a family of ten, yes. Franklin: I mean, that’s a lot of food to make. Jackson: Right. Franklin: Were there any other community activities or events that people--may be unique to where they had come from that they brought with them? Jackson: When we were there, mostly it was, at that time, it was Afro-Americans and the Caucasian, white folks, and there wasn’t a mix. I can remember in second grade, the Guajardos, Robert Guajardo was there at Marcus Whitman. Then after that, they moved to Pasco. So there was a few different cultures of people there, but not a whole—not really a melting pot, not like it is today. Franklin: Okay. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Jackson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Such as? Jackson: Well, for example, one of the things that really changed me as far as professional was that my stepfather, when he worked out there at GE—it might have been—was it GE then? It was Battelle. They had C.J. Mitchell that started this youth opportunity program. So my father got me into that. So I went to work out there in the summer times when I was like 15. I was a serviceman out at PRTR, that’s Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. So you got the charts of the atoms and that type of thing. So I’ve got—I started, golly, there’s more to this, there’s atoms and periodic charts. That’s something that you would get in school. But that was kind of foreign to me. The first year when I went out there, I was—and there was a lot of us, a lot of folks from the Oranges, Little Baby and Big Baby, the Oranges from Pasco, Mozetta Orange and Carl Orange. Man, we just had a great time. Because every week, we’d always meet together and we’d talk about our experiences, so we really got to know one another. So the first year, I was a serviceman, I helped the servicemen out there. The people out there were really good to me. They adopted me—[LAUGHTER] We had a lot of fun out there. But then I go, golly—the second year, I go out there, and I go, there’s more to it besides just being a serviceman. Golly, I want to work in an office, I want to be in a shirt and tie. So I went to—the second year, I got to work for Gary Petersen. I don’t know if you know him. Franklin: I know Gary very well, actually. Jackson: Yes. Him and--god, what was the other dude’s name? I can’t think of his name right now. But I worked in communications—no, I’m sorry. The second year I was out there, I was in Xerox machine. I was out there with Mr. Thomas. And the third year, then, I got to work with Gary. I got to write a story out there. You know, they publish in the Battelle Greenie and stuff. I wore a shirt and tie everyday to work. Man, I was on top of the world. I was cool, then. Plus, you get that check every week. So Gary made a difference. He really—yeah. That part was a special moment, a special time for me in my life. Yeah, that made a difference. Kind of looked at, hey, it coupled the real world with the athletic world and you got to work towards your future, that type of thing. So one of the good things about growing up in Richland no matter who you were is that, from the time you go to school, because this is the largest, per capita, the most PhDs in the country. So it’s a scientific community out here, so your aspirations—and you’re expected to go to college. So that was one of the driving forces of living here in this community. Franklin: And you went on to college? Jackson: I went on to college, I got a scholarship to Fort Silicon and played basketball, got drafted. I got drafted, went in the Army. That was interesting. Went in the Army for two years, got out of that, and then I finished up my degree here at CBC and then I went to Lewis and Clark State College on another scholarship. I finished my degree over there. And what’s interesting, when you’re in the service, particularly in the Army, and I was over in Germany, you’re either with the brothers or you’re not with the brothers. Because there’s a big separation, at that time it was really segregated, the different classes of people, and so you tended to stay together. It was difficult for me, coming from Richland, because, hey, I grew up in a white society. I’m comfortable—I didn’t grow up everyday with brothers or sisters; it was always these white dudes. So when I got in the service, I was still—I had a difficult time making the transition, but I still—I went with whoever. But I was still part of that brotherhood. So when I got out of the service, and I lived in Richland, I was getting ready to go to Central, and Fritz Schenkman got a teaching job at Lewis and Clark State College with Dick Hannon. So Fritz comes in and says, hey, Emmitt, do you want to go to school in Lewiston? Lewiston, Idaho? My first question was to him, well, how many black people in Lewiston? Well, there’s Tony, there’s Eric on the team. That’s it. Man, I’m just coming from a different environment, I go, I don’t know. And he says, oh, well, you come out there and go to school there and graduate and have a good time, enjoy yourself. So I said, okay, Fritz. So I went there and surely enough, man, it was a great time, got my degree, played ball, met a lot of good people, yes. And it’s because of my diverse background that that came out. Franklin: Yeah. That’s really interesting. Yeah, I could imagine the transition to Lewiston would have been a little—might have been a little jarring or at least being like, Lewiston, man. Jackson: Yes! Lewiston. Lewiston, Idaho of all places. But it’s not much different from here, it’s just smaller. You know, that culture. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Jackson: What I started to say, I think, a little bit a while ago about our 50-year reunion, some people will say, well, golly, it must’ve been tough growing up here in Richland. Golly, you’re in a classroom, you’re the only one. And you’re doing this, you’re the only one out there. You kind of stick out. And you go through, there’s been some—you’re kind of ostracized or there’s name-calling or this or that. And you know what I tell them? I say, I had a great time. I mean, I learned a lot. You learn how to get along, you learn how to deal with different people, you learn how to maneuver within the system. So it wasn’t all that bad. You could take—I guess you had an option. You could be above it, or you could be in the middle, or you could be below it. You could feel like you’re ostracized and picked on and I’m the only one, this person did this to me, this person did that to me. But that’s not the way to live. You won’t get anywhere that way. Franklin: That’s true. Could you describe any interactions you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area? Jackson: Interactions. Well what do you mean by—some unusual interactions? That type of thing? Franklin: Yeah, anything that sticks out, memorable, positive, negative. Jackson: You know, I really think for the most part, it was good. Our upbringing, like I said, sometimes you had those difficult situations, but that just made you stronger. I can remember, we walked a lot of places, the stores and the doctors, and that type of thing. Sometime people would go by and holler at us, and if I was with my mom, that really hurt me, because they’d drive by in a car, there was nothing I could do. And I certainly—I would liked to have picked up a rock and throw it, but you couldn’t do that, something like that. But there’s a lot of times and things that you’re just powerless, you’re helpless. And you just had to take the high road. You had to keep on going. Because if—you know, when I was little, I used to fight all the time. But gosh dang it, then after a while, you get tired of fighting. You can’t beat the world! So you find different ways to work those situations. Franklin: You mentioned that negative depiction of blacks in the high school. I’m wondering, were there any other ways that segregation or racism affected your education? Jackson: Was there any other ways? You know, man, when I was in school, I got in trouble a lot. Not bad trouble. Because I was like--I liked to have fun. You say different things in the classroom or something to get people—so I knew that they knew me. I remember Tom Lidup, he was the vice principal. But difficult—I think it really hinged upon the attitudes of the administration and the people. For example, Fran Rish, I don’t know if you’ve heard that name before? Franklin: Yeah, the stadium. Jackson: Pardon me? Franklin: The stadium is named Fran Rish Stadium. Jackson: Yes. Man, he was a heck of a man. He was a PE teacher, and he had a lot to do with kids and how their development and that type of thing. I can remember the first day when I went to Richland. We were standing up on the balcony, looking down at that floor, thinking about, golly, we could play there one day, down there. And Mr. Rish came up to me, and he started messing with me. He started jiving. He had—man, he was probably like 6’3”, probably 240, just thick man. He just started messing with me and stuff and had me start laughing. I’ll never forget this, I was leaning over the rail like this, and I went up like this and I hit him in his chin, and his chin went like that. But he was the type of person that didn’t matter who you were or what you were, he would help you. So those kind of people really helped shape the environment of the school and people’s attitudes and that type of thing. When I was—I couldn’t swim. So we had to go to PE. So we went to PE, and the first day there at the big pool, we were all lined up at the pool and you had to swim across the pool. I happened to be at the deep end. So Mr. Rish says, guys, okay, go! So everybody jumped in. I jumped in, too,right, and I couldn’t swim a lick. And he pulled me out. He goes, Emmitt, how come you jumped in? And I said, because you told me to. So you had that kind of a trust in people. That helped counter any of the negative part. Franklin: Were there anyone else that influenced you as a child? Jackson: Golly! Man. My family, my—I told you about Mrs. Black. Teachers, man, teachers—it’s different now, I believe, because the teachers then had more time. They had more flexibility. They didn’t have limits on what they could do to help. Doctors called, doctors came to your house then. Do doctors come to your house now? Teachers don’t go to your house. That type of thing. So Mrs. Biggs, Mrs. Biggs was our first grade teacher. She had, I think, had most of us in our family. She helped shape us. Mrs. Mitchell. I can remember Mrs. Lane, Mrs. Sagaster. Man, she was a short lady, red-headed lady, a spitfire, and everybody called her Mrs.--what did they call her? Sag Bag. But she was really authoritarian person. That’s the kind of person I really needed. So I used to help her like crazy, and I did well with her. And then Mr. Brian Feld. Just the teachers and coaches. The coaches that I grew up—Mr. Jurastich in high school. There’s Mr. Easton—I mean, Mr. Dudley. He was a track coach. But one that really helped, stands out, is Mr. Jenson, Max Jenson, he was the coach for cross country, him and Mr. Hepper, they were cross country and track coaches. They really helped shape me. And they helped so many people. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time there? Jackson: Well, you know, I’m thinking—I was thinking about that, just thinking about some of the things that you went through. Like the signs. Not many people know about that, that it upset us and that type of thing. Franklin: Do you remember any specific signs? Jackson: Oh, yeah. The signs in—well, for example, you couldn’t go to Kennewick. You couldn’t go to Kennewick after night, after dark. You had to be out of Kennewick after dark. And I can remember some guys from Pasco being chased from Kennewick across the bridge because it was after dark. But they got that sign up there, you know, they had the sundown laws. They just, what is it, 15 years ago or something like that, they took them off the books in Kennewick. Franklin: Was it really just that recent? Jackson: Oh, it might have been longer than that. I would have to look that up, do the research. The sundown laws that they had. In fact, they had a plaque on the bridge. On the old bridge, it said that. The Martin Luther King—Martin Luther King, Junior. Golly. Civil rights. I can remember we had the riot here in Pasco. Franklin: Yeah, could you tell me about that? Did you participate in that? Jackson: No, I didn’t participate. Because I lived in Richland. I can remember when we were seniors and we played Pasco, we beat Pasco on Pasco floor, okay, in Pasco. So there was all sorts of stuff that went on. Franklin: Like what? Jackson: Oh, like people getting beat up, some cars were vandalized, and that type of thing. Franklin: Was any of it racially motivated, or--? Jackson: I don’t—people would have construed it as racial because of the differences in the makeup of the diversity of the schools. But it was the fact that we beat them. It was just—it was a way to—oh, well, you beat us, but you’re not going to beat—you’re not going to win the fight. Franklin: Didn’t Pasco have a pretty sizable black— Jackson: Oh, yeah, they had Ron Howard, Diggy Johnson were on the team then. And Gordie Guice, and Madison—yeah, yeah. They had—yeah. Franklin: What kinds of actions were taken to address the civil rights issues that you just brought up? Jackson: Well, you know, I told you about the issue with Fred Milton, and the response was that they boycotted Arctic Circle. Being in Richland, it wasn’t—because there was so few of us, it wasn’t that pronounced, if you will. So I would have to—look, I’m trying to think of what kind of things that occurred then. Other than the riot and the sundown laws and different areas. You know, you’d hear from time to time there was discrimination, actual discrimination, whether it was housing or you couldn’t go here, or something happened to someone or something like that. Other than that, there wasn’t a whole lot of, what should I say? Movement. There wasn’t a whole lot of movement, other than the movement being progression—relationships getting better as time went on because of the movements outside of the area and different people coming into the community. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights in the Tri-Cities area? Jackson: It’d be the pastors. Yes. Then it would be the pastors. God, what’s his name? God, I can’t think of his name now. He went on to Washington, too. Oh, man, what is his name? He’s passed now. God, I can’t think of his name. Franklin: Was he a pastor? Jackson: No, he wasn’t a pastor; he was a civil rights guy. Oh, man. Franklin: Maybe I’ll be able to find it. Jackson: I’ll get it for you before I leave here. Franklin: Okay, sounds good. What were some of the notable successes in civil rights in the Tri-Cities and at Hanford? Jackson: Notable civil rights. Well, I would have to say, if you think about it, when I was little, I lived in a segregated trailer community. I can remember you couldn’t go past the certain railroad tracks, certain areas. Now you can go anywhere you want to and do what you want. It depends on you. There’s that ceiling—even when I went into the workforce here as a professional, there was a ceiling. There still exists today issues in the classroom, I believe. I can see it, I can feel it. I’ve talked to different kids. My daughter experienced some issues in the classroom. She’s good in English. So she wrote this paper, it was a good paper. This teacher went out of her way to discredit her. This teacher even went to the point of saying that she went on a porno site and got the information off the porno site to put in her paper. So we were there, her mother and I, and the administrator, and I could not believe this. I could not believe the attitude that that person had. But my daughter was able—it made her stronger and she was able to overcome that kind of stuff. But I guess what I’m saying, no matter how good it gets, you’re still going to have those situations, those issues. But as far as movement goes, let’s see. CBC did some things as far as, they had the bell, the Ring the Bell March. Dave Shaw was an individual that impacted the area, came from outside the area. He was here, he was union relations. And so that was—I’m trying to think of other events that happened. Gosh. It’d have to be the churches. Those were very positive. I can’t think of an event, when I was growing up, other than the ones we talked about, where there was actually a civil rights movement or that type of thing. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Jackson: Directly involved in civil rights efforts. I’d say, I would always try to be positive, but I’d always try to lead. Because I knew my brothers and sisters are coming behind me. I’d figure, well, if I could do it, they could see that they could do it. That type of thing. Civil rights. I think, I would think just my attitude towards people. I coached around here for 25 years. Some of the best teams that we’ve had were the mixed teams, we had different kinds of people, kids there. In fact, I believe I might have been the first black coach here, thanks to Jim Castleberry. That’s interesting. Other things. And the outreach programs, I was in HR. At HR, started with Rockwell. I was in management development and training. Franklin: When was this? Jackson: This was in ’77. Franklin: And was that your—because I wanted to actually move to talk about your work at Hanford. Was that your first job out at Hanford? Jackson: In ’77, yeah. ’77, Rockwell hired me, yes. Mary Oxen hired me in ’77. And I always wanted to get in HR and Mary—so I worked in management, development and training with Don Sandburg, and the idea was when an opening came up in human resources, they would see if they could work me in. So it worked that way. I got in HR and, man, I did the hiring out there for skilled crafts for, I don’t know, six years, seven years, something like that. Did labor relations. I can remember, we hired our first black painter out there. First black painter. And then we hired--at that time there was very few people of color out there. So, that was one of my objectives. I can remember, we had servicemen, so we had these interviews. Some of them, I found—Mr. Thompson—they adopted, they took me out there to show me the ropes, to show me the different skills and what was required and that type of thing, and I got to go around the country to do some recruiting. So here, like I was saying, we didn’t have very many different diversity of a workforce out here. You know, there’s always, how do you get there, right? So one of the techniques was, the managers, they always wanted you to give a firm handshake and look at them right in the eye. Particularly Hispanic culture, they aren’t going to do that, most of the time. So, hey, when you go out there, this is what you got to do. It made a difference. So we started getting a diverse workforce in some of those lower skills, and hoped, the idea that they could go up to another level. Then after I did that, I became the college relations person. So college relations, and the comment was from the managers out there in the workfield was, we can’t get any Afro-Americans to come here. They won’t come here. Well, if you don’t go where they are, guess what, you aren’t going to get any. So we started recruiting all over the country. We started looking at diversity in college populations, and it made a big difference. We got—managers started to recognize that there was talent out there and there was people that would come here and go to work. I’m really proud of being able to do that. We had a community ambassador and I did a lot of outreach programs, community ambassador programs. We brought—Xavier University had this math builders program. They’re the number one, if I remember correctly, the number one graduate of Afro-Americans in pharmacy. They contribute to these math builders, bio builders and chem builders program. What they are is that they are programs that students become entrenched in those skills. So then when they get in the actual classroom, they’re comfortable, they aren’t nervous and that type of thing. Then they can do well in them and go on. So the students that go through that program at Xavier, then they went on to Tulane, I believe, and they graduate in pharmacy. So they had the number one graduation rate of Afro-American pharmacy students because of that. So we were able to bring that to here. That model to here to the Tri-Cities. In fact, we did it at CBC. There’s a lot of students, a lot of kids today that will tell you that that made a difference in their life. There’s things like that that really made a difference. Once again, man, I know this stuff. Huh? Franklin: So it’s 3:35. Jackson: Oh, wow! We talked that long? Franklin: Yes. [LAUGHTER] An hour and five minutes. When did you want to—when did you need to leave by? Because I can adjust the rest of my day. Jackson: I should probably be leaving here pretty soon. Franklin: Okay, like five, ten minutes? Jackson: Okay, that’s cool, that’s cool. Franklin: Okay, sounds good. I just have one, a couple, one more question about your work and then we’ll wrap up to the ending big questions. How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and supervisors and management? Jackson: You know, it was competition. It was competitive. There wasn’t many—the workforce out at Hanford hasn’t been that diverse. Maybe—one of the issues is, you look at the executives out there, you look at the management, there’s a sprinkle in here, a sprinkle in there, but there wasn’t anyone—there wasn’t a progression. I did a lot of management boards and that type of thing, so I understood the process and I understood how you get promoted and how it worked. It was difficult for a person of color to get promoted, because they were not—they were in the workforce, but they weren’t in the workforce, if you understand what I mean. It’s like, what churches do you go to, what organizations do you belong, where do you have dinner, that type of thing. All those played a big part. So, I was—the workforce, for me, it was competitive. Being an athlete and competitive nature, but that wasn’t the right way. But it never—we did good things, were able to accomplish things. I can remember this one time, this one time. So we had college relations, right? So, we’d hire internships. I hired Betty Matier one summer. She’s a professor from Walla Walla, College of Walla Walla. We were going to do this symposium. The symposium consisted of different stations—it was at the Hanford House, so we had chemical engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, different stations, different careers there. We invited the colleges to come in. All the colleges of Washington, most of them, came. A lot of their students came, and students from Oregon, Idaho. Man, there was this mass of kids there, young students. We fed them, we were able to feed them at that time, so we feed them and everything. I got the president to come and do the opening presentation. But I can remember our VP calling me into his office, because—see, they kind of left me alone, they let me do my thing, so I just—so I was doing it. When he found out about it, he calls me into his office, and that man was hot. That man was hot! And he goes—he was this close, he got this close to me. He says, Emmitt! He goes, we don’t want a black eye on this organization! [LAUGHTER] Because then Westinghouse—this was Westinghouse at the time, they’re a very conservative company, they’ve never done anything like this before. And it was well-received, did well and everything else. But to his credit, he came back and he says, hey, Emmitt, that was good. He thanked me and appreciated. But it didn’t help me. It didn’t help me. And this was a big thing, this was a big time. Big time. Franklin: A lot of effort. Jackson: Yeah, it took a lot of effort, took a lot of coordination. We had a lot of good networks with the colleges and universities and the people. So it went well, it went well. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with your coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Jackson: Not much. They’d have—you know, they’d have parties and stuff. I wouldn’t go to them. I wouldn’t go to parties. I just—no. Man. No, my friends, we played ball. I was still ballin then. So we played ball. That’s what we did. Got together and that type of thing. Not really—if they played ball or they were involved in athletics or coaching—my outside thing was, I think I started coaching, probably five years after that. Plus I was on the—see, I was on the board of trustees at CBC college for like a number of years, I was a chairman of the board, I was on the state board of education, so I did—I’ve done a lot of things outside of the work environment, too. Because that’s where my interest lies. So I was always doing something like that. Franklin: Okay. We’ll go up to the big wrap-up questions, and this is one of my favorites here. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Jackson: During the Cold War. What would I like to let them know? Future generations. Well, I think it is what you make it. Opportunity exists everywhere you go. You know wherever you’re at—one of the things you need to do is you need to relax and take your time. You need to network. You need to be observant. You need to understand—if you don’t understand, seek the answers. Look for open doors. You know, a door closes behind, there’s always another one that you can go through. I just think you’ve got to network and you’ve got to—one of the things is that, it doesn’t happen tomorrow. You’ve got to have stamina, you’ve got to have energy, you’ve got to have vision, you’ve got to have insight. And you’ve got to pray. You’ve got to be humble, you’ve got to be respectful, and you’ve got to be kind. And you’ve got to be able to lend a hand to somebody else, too, you know? Franklin: Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Jackson: You know, it’s interesting, because the budget out here is—when the democrats are in, the budget does well. But you talk to—but this happens to be a what? Republican. And it’s amazing, to me, how they groan and moan, people groan and moan about the democrats, but when the democrats are in power, budgets are good, life is good. And then they moan and groan when the budgets get cut, and it’s usually on the republican side. That—I don’t understand that. I just don’t. One of the things we haven’t talked a lot about, Obama, mentioned that. I’m in a workforce, I think there’s only two of us out there, two Afro-Americans. But most of the folks, a lot of the folks out there are Trump supporters. So they had Obama’s picture up in the—you know, we have all the Presidents’ pictures up. So they had, they send you one. This is kind of off the record, by the way. Franklin: Okay, do you want to say this off-camera? Jackson: I’ll say this off-camera. Remind me to say that off-camera. But one of the things, you know, I think of the Kennedys and the Martin Luther King and the impacts that they made, it’s really impacted my life, and I don’t know where we would be without them today. Because the way, the differences in things that happened, they made a big difference, made a huge difference. But I’ve seen since Obama has been president that there’s been a backlash. We’re kind of retrenching, because my sense is that, before it was like, okay, the diverse, the people of color are going to be here, and we’re going to be there, and we’re always trying to catch up. But then when you get the President of the United States is a person of color, then the folks or whoever they are that think that they’re ahead, they really become sensitive and become challenged and they become nervous, because, oh, the most powerful country, the most powerful position in the world now is a person of color, all right? So now, uh-oh, what am I going to do? So I sense a backlash to that. I sense there’s some fear and some re-trenching going the other direction. Franklin: Very much so. I think I would agree with you. Jackson: And it bothers me. It troubles me. My daughter lives in Atlanta. [LAUGHTER] Oh, man. She lives in Atlanta, right. She’s born and raised here; lives in Atlanta. She had some issues in high school that weren’t very good. Franklin: Here? Jackson: Yeah, here in Richland. She was able to come over, part of it was athletics. But she was able to overcome that. So she got this opportunity, she works for Johnson & Johnson. So she lives there and she loves it. She loves it. It’s a chocolate city, as you know. She got this opportunity to go—they wanted her to go to Charlotte. So she went down there for a while, and they just—the people that she worked with really liked her. She’s a very likable person, smart and talented. So she went down there and they wanted her to—an opening came up and they wanted her to go down there. She didn’t want to go down there. The reason that it was so funny to me, comical, because, she goes, Dad, it’s just the opposite of Atlanta. I go, what do you mean? She said, well, here, I interact with black doctors and nurses and all these other kind of professions of black folks. Down there, what do they call, the guys that put you to sleep? The people down there are just the opposite. They’re white doctors and nurses. And I’m going, where would you live? You went to school here! And I’m going, wow, the transition and the comfortability, it’s just fascinating to me. It really, really is. And she likes it down there, but it scares me, because of the attitudes. She goes to some places and I’m going, oh my gosh. So I send her all this stuff to arm yourself with, some mace, this and that. I taught—I’m always checking on her. I’m like, hey, if I don’t hear from her I get a little nervous. And she told me one time this truck went by with these two big old flags, rebel flags. And I go, oh my gosh, where are you at? You know? Hot dang. It just bugs me that she’s there and the attitudes and that type of thing. You never know. Franklin: No, you never know. Well, Emmitt, thank you so much for coming and taking the time. I know you’re a very busy man, and I appreciate you taking the time to come and talk with us about growing up in Richland and working at Hanford. Jackson: Well, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric 300 Area Battelle Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Rockwell Westinghouse Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1977- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emmitt Ray Jackson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Discrimination Sports Basketball Migration School integration Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Emmitt Jackson was born in Richland, Washington in 1950 and started working on the Hanford Site in 1977. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F46791ed421590b711a395ad8efbaf06d.jpg 92c08336667442429afb1c8754d9f1dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene Astley Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Eugene Astley on December 5th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Astley about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name? Astley: Yeah. Eugene Astley. That’s E-U-G-E-N-E, A-S-T-L-E-Y. Franklin: Great. So let’s start at the beginning. Tell me how and why you came to the Hanford site. Astley: I was working in General Electric back in Schenectady in the research labs. Loved my job there, but in 1954—the winter of ’53, really, it was like 30 below, and I decided to walk into work. That wasn’t going to work. Hated the weather. So, when I walked in the building, I walked up to the top, and walked in the boss’s office and said I want to give you a month’s notice. I’m leaving. I cannot stand this weather. Summer’s even worse. [LAUGHTER] So, I was sitting in my office and a couple weeks later, when Dave McGlenagan[?] who’s the recruiter for the laboratory walked into my office and said, are you Eugene Astley? I said, yeah. He said, I understand you’ve given notice to General Electric Company, and there was a notice put out to all subsidiaries and whatnot that they thought this person should be retained in the General Electric Company. We have a project out at Hanford. I said, yeah. I said, you’re not talking about taking me out there in that damn desert, are you? I was raised in Portland, Oregon. I mean, nobody lived in that part of the world. [LAUGHTER] So, he talked me into coming out, and then they explained that they had a group called design, and they were thinking about perhaps adding a new production reactor, which would be the ninth one, I guess. Yeah, the ninth one. And that the physicist who had been in charge of doing—was on this particular design team, which they called a core design, had left. So they wanted me to fill that position. I’d never before worked in any such project or reactor or anything. I told them, I don’t know anything about reactors. And they said, well, you did your master’s degree in studying gaseous diffusion, which is the basis of all the theory we’re using for reactors right now. And you’ll find out, except for terminology, you’re an expert. [LAUGHTER] So I came. And so then I slid into this design group, and then the idea of the production reactor—new one—came along. They asked us to design a concept. We were a group of about eight people. And I was the chief physicist of all the physics on the work. We got going on that. I came on up with the idea that this really ought to be different from the Hanford reactors as we know them, because it ought to be a dual-purpose reactor, one that produced electricity. And I said it’s going to be about 3,000 megawatts thermal, and we can probably produce around 1,000 megawatt electric, which would be a great addition. That’d bring in a lot of income, and it would pay for—more than pay for—the operation of the plant. So you’d be getting your new plutonium free. Of course, GE management thought that was great. So that’s the way it went down. And then about, I think, two years later, when we were well into the design and pretty well doing it, it came to the attention of the Atomic Energy Commission more directly about what exactly would the design look like. As soon as the word dual purpose came out, they said, what do you mean by that? We’re going to produce electricity. Uh-oh! So, it turned out that Bill Johnson and Al Grenager and I were then called back to testify before the DOE—the AEC first and then Congress. Because the democrats were controlling—they thought it was a great idea. Republicans were against any government getting into the power business. They already had too much with TVA and Bonneville. So they were dead set against it. So we testified on what a great thing would be for helping to lower the costs of plutonium. We were still in the Cold War, so we thought it was still needed more. So I came back, and about three weeks later, down came the word that there was a compromise made politically, so that we would be allowed to produce enough power to run the reactor only. But that in view of the fact that things sometimes change, we want you to also design it so that at some later date when they decide producing 1,000 megawatt electrics would be feasible, go ahead and design it as a dual purpose anyway. But design it so that the first operation would be like lower temperature water, 350. Of course, that just blew our mind, because that was absolutely stupid. [LAUGHTER] I mean, because you had to design the thing to operate with 700 or 750-degree water. So that really increased the cost of things and what you could do and what you didn’t have to do. But nobody had ever designed a turbine to run at 350 degrees. Okay? Because the pressure’s so low, you end up with a monster. When you walked—when we finally built that thing, you walked in it, people that had designed turbines would ask, what is that? It had no relationship to anything anybody had ever conceived. You walked in, looked at the turbine, what’s that? [LAUGHTER] And of course at those pressures, the steam you’re producing is very wet, which is also deterrent. And you have to redesign the buckets to collect the water and drain it off. I mean, it was an abortion. And it made it very difficult to design. So it took special precautions, it entered into physics that I had to start designing some new physics and mathematics to handle the damn problem. Because they turned out that—at 700 degrees, if you have a tube burst, then the pressure comes out and wants to blow the stack apart. So, the first thing the engineer said, we got to groove these graphite blocks so there’s a place for the steam to go on out, and then we’ll bleed it out of the reactor and dissipate it in a very large area. But all of the sudden now, from a physics standpoint, now I’ve got neutrons wanting to stream out that way. That had never been handled before, so I had to figure out how to handle that from a physics standpoint. It turned out to be mathematically difficult. We didn’t have—you know, the computer we had was a 650, which was about 1/1000th as much as the computer in your cell phone. [LAUGHTER] I mean, you know? No memory. It was horrible—mechanical-type thing. Franklin: Right. With tapes—the reels. Astley: Yeah, punch cards. Franklin: Punch cards, right. Astley: So then I’d have to get in and say, okay, I’ve put this thing in bucket number 5A, and where am I now? I’m over here, so I should spin the thing this direction so I’ll have a shorter time to get back to the memory spot. I mean, this is by today’s standards, this is below most computer people’s mind, thinking that’s what you’re doing. Actually had to tell the drum which way to spin? Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: Anyway, we got that, we finally did design that. It was in dead run for a number of years and produced enough energy to do itself. But of course it got shut down before anything ever came of producing electricity. But that was a good case of where philosophies between the two political parties actually designed a reactor. That’s just—not good? [LAUGHTER] I can understand where—because I was republican also. I can understand where they were coming from, but it still made sense from the standpoint of saving money for the country. Franklin: Right. Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So I thought it was a good thing to do. And I didn’t think of it in terms of really putting the government further into it. But they were afraid that it would set a precedence for all further government operations and that type of thing. It would be invasive from that standpoint. Franklin: So their opposition was more ideological, and you perhaps had a more kind of practical viewpoint— Astley: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: --on that. How did you solve the problem of the neutrons bleeding out? Astley: I did it by going to cylindrical. At that time, you really had two choices, spherical or cylindrical. I got to looking at cylindrical geometry, and then I remembered from my graduate work that the engineers used cylindrical—I mean their theorists did. And that instead of, in physics where we’re using spheres, you use Bessel functions, and they were using Hankel functions. And I’d never really used a Hankel function. But they’re just as powerful for cylindrical geometry as Bessel functions were spheres. So I used that kind of a mathematical approach and cobbled up some—and then imposed upon it a radial geometry at the same time to make the math work. So it was kind of interesting, because what you did was increase the albedo and lost a lot of neutrons out, which then was important. You know, what did our shielding have to look like, and how much more does that make it that we have to enrich the fuel to be able to sustain the fission? Franklin: Oh. Did the reactor ever operate at 700 degrees? Because I know they put the steam generating station—the WHPSS station— Astley: Well, what they did was they didn’t build the second part of the turbine. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: They just built the turbine to be able to do its job. Franklin: Right. Astley: And then later they could come on in with the normal turbine and move the old one back and go with the new turbine. Franklin: And did that happen? Astley: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: Never happened. It was still politically impossible. Franklin: Do you kind of connect it with that reactor—do you remember JFK—were you present at JFK’s visit? Astley: I’m sorry, I didn’t get that. Franklin: I’m sorry. Connected with the N Reactor, were you present at JFK’s dedication of the steam generating facility—the steam processing facility? Astley: Yeah, I think so. I barely remember that, you know. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: That was not part of anything that I designed. I told them what the parameters had to be, but it was up to the engineering part. Different group of people. Franklin: Okay. So, tell me about the Fast Flux Test Facility and how you came to design that. Astley: Okay. Well, then, I had—in 1960 then, I was promoted out to handle all the maintenance and maintenance engineering for the eight reactor operating—operating reactors. At that time, when they pulled me and said they wanted to do that, I said, you know, I’m a physicist. I’m a theoretical physicist, in fact. I’d done some experimental work, but I really am not a guy who knows much about maintenance. And they said, precisely. That’s your problem. We think you have real management capabilities; you need to learn more about other things. [LAUGHTER] So they said, it’s our opinion that to a certain extent the pressures on the reactor manager are so hard to never shut the reactor down, and when it does shut down to get it back on its feet, that the maintenance tends to be a little bit more crude than we would like. And we’d like to have a little more technology put into it. So that sounded a little more interesting. [LAUGHTER] But I ended up with like 1,000 pipefitters and millwrights and machine shops and stuff like that that I was in charge of. That was my first experience with dealing with the union. Franklin: Okay. Astley: Which was a broadening experience, certainly. Franklin: I bet. Any notable experiences when dealing with the union? Astley: Not good ones. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Astley: They—one of the problems there again was politics. The unions were very strong with the democrats. So if you were tried to get hardnosed and have a strike, you just—the top management got a call immediately from the president or vice president, that type of stuff, saying, we understand that, you know, what you’re trying to do, shut down our production? You can’t do that; give them what they really want. That was their sort of philosophy. So they ended up with a lot of—which was very difficult for me, because I was also then working with these people. And when you up in the front face when a tube failed—leaked—then you had to pull off some big bolts on the thing that held the tube in. And then you had to pull the tube out, so the union argued that handling the tube was pipefitter work, but handling the big phalange was millwright. So you had to have both kinds of people up there at the same time, taking radiation, when one guy would have been able to do it. Then of course, they say, well, we’re all suited up, so we’ll just wait while the other guy does his thing. So he had 50% work. So those kind of things went on, that it made it difficult from a management standpoint, because we had very strict rules about how much radiation people could take. You had a daily limit and a yearly limit. So one of the problems I had was trying to manipulate the forces so that I didn’t ever overexpose people. The front face had a lower radiation level than the rear face. So the front face would be like ten MR per hour, and the rear face might be 200 or 300. So that was also a logistical problem that was—I don’t know how many people thought about those kind of things, but those are important, you know? We had a three-R limit for everybody, so, the problem was then that when we got to the point that it looked like maybe we’d either have to hire some people, then I went over from another manager running the reprocessing plants, I could borrow some of his people to even out the radiation exposure. Franklin: Wow. Astley: So it was those kind of problems at that level that were very difficult, and later on were even more difficult, because it turned out that there was a—they redesigned the tubes, which had little—a round tube with little things on it poking up where the fuel could be centered—not really centered, because you needed more flow on the top than the bottom. But they redesigned those and redesigned them wrong. So they ended up getting them up too close, and the top of the tubes, the temperature of the water was too high so it started to erode all the tubing. At some point in I think it was 1963, we had to re-tube six of the reactors, which was 12,000 tubes. At that time, it took an hour-and-a-half to do one tube. Franklin: Wow. Astley: You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: And they said that we can’t do that. You got to get that down to like 30 minutes. So I ended up inventing a device for them that worked real well. When you have aluminum tube, you put a phalange on it. So you can put a gasket and seal it. To do that, the millwrights would go on up with three tools and put the first one in and bang it with a small sledge, which would do it. Then they’d do the second one a little more and the third one. And the problem was that some of the millwrights were very strong, and so the third one they’d really rap it. Those tended to crack. Franklin: Oh. Astley: So they had a lot of time like that. So I invented a—which turned out to be kind of fun, because of the problems involved—but I got the idea that—I’d been studying something, and I read at that time that if you move metal fast enough, it wouldn’t know it’s been moved, so it’d be stress-free. Wouldn’t crack. So there at that time for the weapons program were putting an explosive charge in and blowing a bubble on something. So I thought, hey, why don’t I do that. So I thought, I’ll modify a .45 automatic and have a blank. That gas pressure—which I read up on—was enough then to—if I had a rubber thing back in there, a mole, I could go in and pull the trigger and—shew—you’d have your phalange. 20 seconds, not an hour-and-a-half. So that blew the whole thing apart. We managed to get down to 15 minutes a tube. Franklin: Wow. Astley: That thing—that worked. But then, of course, as soon as I started to talk about this, safety people got involved. And then, even worse, the security people. Because, you said, you’re going to talk about bringing a loaded weapon on board with ammunition? We don’t do that. Only guards are allowed to have weapons. [LAUGHTER] So I think it took me two months to finally persuade whoever all’s involved that I could bring this in. And then it turned it out that I had to have a special safe to put the gun and the bullets—even though they were blanks and all that. And then we had to have a guard, that every time we took it out would go on up on the front face to make sure that somebody didn’t use the weapon somehow or other to kill somebody, or—you know, it was, I mean, little things like that that got to me. Kind of difficult for theoretical physicists to deal with. Really wasn’t—[LAUGHTER]—something--my feeling was, what a bunch of bullshit. I mean, trying to get a job done! And we got it done, and then everything was confiscated and done something with. Franklin: Wait, was there a specific—did you give a specific name to that tool? Astley: I just called it an explosive installing tool. And the word explosive didn’t get me off to a good start. It was very descriptive, unfortunately. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I could see how— Astley: And for that I was awarded one share of General Electric stock. Franklin: One share? Astley: One share, right. Franklin: Wow. I assume that’s split into a couple more by now. Astley: I think so. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, there I was out there running maintenance when I got this call. Of course they knew my background, so—in fact, I was in charge of core design before they pulled me from being a physicist to being the supervisor of the core design group. So I had a lot of experience in that area. So they brought me in and Albaugh told me that he wasn’t sure where we wanted to go, but he said, I’ve got kind of a thinking here. He said, I really think that the way things are going, that the next reactor’s going to be a fast reactor—a breeder reactor. And so it sounds just off the top of my head, he said, that maybe that’s something you really ought to take a hard look at in this study. With only two weeks to do, I went to the library. For some reason, all’s I remember is the microfiche or something they called it, I don’t know. But at any rate, started running my eyeballs out on these things where I’d be looking at things that’d been photographed and trying to read about fast reactors. So I finally came to the conclusion that at that time—I found that Oak Ridge, which was the head of all fast breeder reactor stuff and running the Idaho operations, had EBR-I running as a test reactor. They had proposed to Congress that they wanted to build another one called FARET—F-A-R-E-T. About the only thing different about it and ERB-I is that they copied everything, except they changed the lid so they could get in and refuel easier. I thought, that’s a mistake. As long as you’re going to build a reactor, you ought to try to also make it more facile for doing its job of looking at exposure of fuels and materials. Also, it had such a low flux level that essentially what they had was if they had wanted to take ten years, find out what happened to this material in ten years, it took them ten years. It seemed to me that what you needed to do was get the flux up by at least a factor of ten. And then we could get ten years’ worth of experience in one year, and be real serviceable to the industry. So I then came back into Albaugh—this was after about a week—and I said, here’s what I think. But, I said, to go further any more, I think, so see whether this is possible to make something ten times as fast with the technology we got, I said, I really need to put together a concept. I said, I can’t do that by myself. I need an engineer to help me. There’s a guy on your staff that actually worked at Fermi Reactor, which is a fast breeder reactor built by—out of Chicago. Edison? Edison Electric, maybe. Can’t remember what—anyway, the head of that thing wanted to always lead the parade. They built it and didn’t understand the graphite swells as it—so that was a big fiasco, because after about—you know, I don’t know, six months or a year the whole thing cracked apart and couldn’t be run anymore. So I got a permission to do that. Then Albaugh said, well, go ahead and put together three or four people, whoever you need. And he said, but I can’t pay for it; I don’t have that in my budget. So he said, I want you to just go out wherever they are and talk whoever the manager is into loaning you somebody, and they pay for it. And I said, okay. But, he said, remember this is all secret. You can’t tell them what this is for. Franklin: Why was it secret? Astley: Because nobody knew General Electric was going to leave. Franklin: And what year was this again? Astley: That would have been ’64. Franklin: Okay. Astley: I’m sure—maybe they were thinking about it in ’63, I wasn’t in on it. But by the time I got knowledgeable about it, it was like July ’64. Franklin: And that was before most of the employees knew, right? It was still pretty secret at that time. Astley: GE was pulling out, period. Franklin: Right. Okay. Astley: So they were—I think there’s like, maybe three or four people of theirs—a couple at DOE, the highest guy running it and the next guy down. So it was a real super-secret project. So it was kind of awkward to go into a guy a couple levels higher than I was and sit down and tell him I needed to use his—like, Les Finch was an example of what I considered to be the best engineer on the planet that I knew, that I needed him. But I couldn’t tell him what for. You know? [LAUGHTER] It was—when I told Albaugh, I said, I don’t—gee, I’m not even sure that’s possible. I can’t tell him something. He said, well, he says, no, you’ve got a reputation for being the best pirate at the Hanford anyway. So you ought to be able to handle it. [LAUGHTER] And I did. I got together a group of four or five people. They then gave me a couple months. So it took me about 60 days of this group and we came up with a concept. I turned the patent in on it, got a patent on it. Then we actually came up with a design. In fact, I have a thing, it’s about this thick—when I left there they gave me a montage that essentially shows the reactor and all the kinds of parts that we devised. It was a beautiful thing by a designer I had on there that was an incredible draftsman. Did everything in ink, never made a mistake. Franklin: Was that Dennis Brunson? Astley: Beg your pardon? Franklin: Dennis Brunson? Astley: I didn’t get that. Franklin: Was that Dennis Brunson? Astley: No, it was Andy Anthony. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: Incredible guy. I mean, he did everything in ink, and he did it once, he did it fast. And he had an incredible ability to visualize three-dimensionally. So he would sit on my meeting, and we’d discuss, and I’d discuss what the core had to look like. Which, I’ve said, okay, we need more room, because that’s the big problem. We’ve got room on the top face of this reactor. And when I was down having lunch one day, I ordered a milkshake, and then I saw her lift up the thing to pull the straws out. What happens then is that the straws fold out. Okay? So you have a matrix of straws, which—I got back thinking about that. That’s a way to get the things apart and still have a dense core. Okay? Franklin: Ahh. Astley: So we designed the core that way. We only had to tilt the tubes like about eight degrees. That gave us a lot of room up there by the time you got up to where you wanted to work. So that was part of the design. That didn’t turn out to be—it wasn’t allowed to go through. The reason was that we were left alone. The head of the—I don’t know—well, I’ll tell you, because, I mean, what can they do? [LAUGHTER] We ended up with a big political problem within the AEC. The guy that was heading the AEC was in bed with Argonne, because they were the breeder reactor. So the fact that we came on in saying we wanted to build a reactor at Hanford and replace the FARET was absolutely objectionable to him. So I was called back to talk to him and explain what we were doing, why we were doing it, why the FARET wasn’t any good and whatnot. So he listened to the whole thing, I go back home. Three days later I get a letter—telegram from him saying stop and desist all work on the FFTF, whether it be private funds or public funds. Franklin: Wow. Astley: Okay? So I sat down with Fred and he said, well, why don’t I see what I can do. So he called his friend who was this guy’s boss, who had—I can’t—I got a moment where I can’t remember his name. Very famous physicist out of California. But he and Fred had been roommates together getting their Ph.D. And Fred’s wife had married his secretary. [LAUGHTER] So he called him up and he said, well, that’s interesting. So he called the AEC—the head of the commission itself, who are a group of congressmen that ran everything. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Astley: One of the congressmen happened to be interested in our concept. So he called us back there and he and Fred and I sat for about four hours talking about what we had in mind. So then we told him about—showed him these facts. And he said, well, I’ll take care of that. So what they did was fired him! Franklin: Wow. Astley: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Then word came down: continue with your work. And gave us a deadline for getting in a proposal and all that kind of stuff. I was left alone, totally, for a year. No guidance from the AEC. We were totally on our own while they were hunting to replace him. So they finally replaced him with Milt Shaw, who was Admiral—was he an admiral then? No, I think. Yeah, he was an admiral then. Admiral Rickover? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So he came on in then. And then it took him a year, putting a staff together as he thought he needed it, along the Rickover-type thing. It was actually two years into the whole thing where we had finished the preliminary design. I was in the midst of putting out proposals to get the architect engineers in, when I got called back there to meet Milt. Then about two or three weeks later I came back and made a presentation where we were. And he said, no. He said, you don’t understand the problem. And I said, what problem is that? [LAUGHTER] He said, politically it’s very difficult right now to get the money I need to go forward with a prototype breeder reactor. So what I’ve got is this reactor. So I’ve got to make it—we want to make it as close to a prototype breeder as we can. And I said, if we do that, it’s going to sacrifice 90% of its ability to do the kind of work we really want to do for studying materials, which is our proposal. So we won’t be—the flux will be lower, and we’ll be back to looking like a modified or better machine than EBR-I. But I said, that just doesn’t make any sense to me. He said, I understand your technical problems. That hasn’t anything to do with the problem. I can only get so much money. I said, if we do that, we can’t do this reactor for the cost that we’ve pledged to do. I said, I have no idea what it will be costing, but it’s not going to be around $100 million. I said, it could be $200 or $300 million, I think. He said, well, you know, your thinking isn’t important to me; I’ll take care of that problem. So we finally received orders that we couldn’t skew the core. He said, who’s ever heard of a commercial reactor with a skewed core? He said, that doesn’t make any sense to me. You want—I said, it’s only eight degrees. I don’t think that’s going to make a bit of difference. Well, he said, we want the core straight. So, then he said, now, in order to do that, the people who really know how to do that is Westinghouse. You know, the whole background was Westinghouse—his background. So he said, put out a—why don’t you go out for proposals to design the core to at least three different people including Westinghouse. And then he said also take a look at Idaho, which was essentially part of the same group of people. Then said, and throw General Electric in. So I was forced to do that, which meant that we were that back starting at scratch. Two years’ worth of work down the drain. So that went on—I guess that was in late ’67. So by ’68, we had that work done, redoing everything. And then he said, okay, now—the next thing he said is we’re going to have to put all the sodium exchangers and whatnot inside the dome, because that’s what we’ll have to do with the prototypes. And I said, that’s going to make the dome be bigger than any dome anybody’s ever built in the world. I said, we can’t just say we’re going to do that until I get a chance to talk to people, like Chicago Bridge and Iron is probably going to have to do the job, or the Japanese. Don’t want the Japanese, he said! Okay. To find out if they can do this. You’re talking about equipment, and your equipment can only do so big. So I went back and talked to them, and found I was right, that they couldn’t do it. But that they could build a piece of equipment to do it, provided that the AEC wanted to pay for it. So I came back to him, and I said for $50 million they can do it. He said what’s the $50 million for? A machine. You’re handling these huge things, and they got to be cylinders. They don’t have any equipment—cranes and everything. So he said, okay, well, that’s no problem. So that’s the way it went. It kept going that way. In late ’68, I finally hired Bechtel to do a cost estimate for me on where we were. It came out about $455 million. [LAUGHTER] So I wrote a letter to Shaw and told him, the costs on this project are totally out of bounds. I said, every time we turn around, I get instructions from your staff to add this or add that. It just keeps going on and on and on. I don’t know where we’re going, but I said, for my study, we can probably go back to $150 million to $200 maybe, and keep most of the things you want. But, I said, you got to stop your people coming in and asking for anything without having a meeting back there to decide whether this is something we can afford or is really important. I said, you just got to stop everybody coming out there with their gut feelings and druthers. Okay? Well, as you can imagine, that didn’t sit well. I got called back there. He just really dressed me down. [LAUGHTER] Everybody later told me the whole floor evacuated it was so loud, him yelling at me. Franklin: Wow. Astley: So I came back and thought it through. Then I came in by Albaugh, who was the director of Battelle and told him—I mean Saul Fawcett, who was the director. And I told him that I really felt at this point, the costs are so far out of control, and I showed him the letter I got, that we needed to withdraw from the project. Now, this is nowhere in anybody’s record, so I don’t know what you want to do with that information. It caused a meeting, and then finally, Fawcett and Albaugh and I went back to the board of trustees and told them why we wanted to do this, and they gave us approval to do it. We then set up a meeting with AEC. Came back there, and in the meantime, Shaw had gotten so irritated at what I’d done that he decided that I wasn’t under proper control. So in the meeting, he said, what I want to do now at this meeting, see, I want to reorganize like I’ve done down at so-and-so. The laboratory will still be responsible for funding—handling the funds, paying the paychecks—but Gene Astley will then report directly to me, running the lab. So Battelle had nothing to do with any of the technology—anything else—just handling—so he said, you’ll still get your fee, et cetera. And Fawcett finally said, I think I can—if you’d let me say a few words here, I think we can get over this problem immediately. So Shaw said, yes, okay. He said, we’re formally asking you to find another contractor to run the project. Shaw said, you can’t do that! And Fawcett said, why can’t I do that? He said, because that’s not what I want. And he said, furthermore, why do you want to withdraw? He said, we have a tax problem. And we felt that—my understanding—I’m not sure whether we did or didn’t. But at that time, we were a not-for-profit. Not a non-profit, but a not-for-profit. There’s a distinction. You can—you’re allowed to pay people bonuses and things of that nature, but—so then he also said that it’s not entirely clear to us that that’s in keeping with the Battelle will. So then Shaw said, okay, fine. He said, that’s it. We’ll find one. But he said, no matter who we find I want to reserve Gene Astley for—if it turns out to be Westinghouse or GE or whoever, that he then be available for those outfits to hire him so he could continue to—so even though he got really pissed at me—[LAUGHTER]—he still wanted me. And Fawcett just stood up and he said, I’m sorry, but Gene Astley—we have other needs for him, and he is not going to be available. So that ended the meeting. So then they found—and he went to his office—Shaw—and immediately called Westinghouse, and didn’t go out for bitter or anything. Just turned the whole project over to Westinghouse. Which is very irregular. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: You know? So they sent a crew out there and it was kind of funny, because the guy that took over, he was talking with the paper and he said—they said, isn’t this going to be a problem with a big transfer right in the middle? You resign? He said, never fear. And I won’t name his name, but he says, so-and-so’s here, happened to rhyme—[LAUGHTER]—he got replaced about six months later. So that’s how the FFTF got going. It did turn out to finally be constructed. Its flux level’s very low. I think it might have been just slightly higher than the EBR-II. But it did a lot of work, ran successfully. Never had a problem—safest reactor in the world. They did retain all the safety features. One of them was a very important one. I don’t know whether you care about this, but the fast reactor, you know, if you have—somebody pulls all the rods out in a thermal reactor, the power level goes up pretty fast. But it’s not an explosive thing. It just goes up enough where it melts everything down. Franklin: Right. Astley: It doesn’t really explode. But in a fast reactor, that’s not true. When you pull all the rods out of a fast reactor, the power level goes up in seconds. Franklin: Wow. Astley: Microsecond. Okay? Dynamite takes to the—so it’s faster than a dynamite, okay? So that is a major problem design. So what that means is, mechanically you can’t do a damn thing. Nothing can respond in that period of time. Just to detect it takes you longer than that. You know? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So the question we had with the FFTF was what do we do about that? It was funny—one winter I came—I went to work and I put up the garage door, and there was water and ice all over the floor. My water heater had been in the corner, put in the garage, and it was so cold, and the door had been open, left a little bit, and it froze the damn thing. So the safety valve went off. And when I got back, I thought, you know, that’s a good concept. So when this thing happens, this huge explosive force—and I had calculations to go on by the Army, who was doing experiments on what it takes to blow up cylinders and spheres and stuff. So I had a lot of data on what kind of explosive force. So I said what we need to do is have a safety valve of some kind, so when that goes off, the first force blows it open. So we’ve destroyed it; the core’s now going to get hot, it’s going to melt down, but we know how to handle that. But the explosive we’ve got to be taking care of. So I said, I don’t know how—how do we do that. Well, this engineer I had came up with a beautiful idea. He said, well, what I can do is design the bolts that hold down the lid so that that force will pass through the elastic limit and they’ll break and the lid will fly off. Perfect safety. And it’s simultaneous, almost. The pressure gets too high, and it blows. Perfect. So then all’s you had to do is design a big concrete container around it with enough volume to take that expansion. And then we had a core catcher down there that we could cool so that we wouldn’t do the China syndrome where it melts down and goes to China, so to speak. So those kind of things were all put into it. We had a couple physics things to go on at those speeds that were esoteric, but that also helped to cut that explosion down. [VIDEO CUTS] Eugene Astley: Coefficient. Camera man: I’m ready. Robert Franklin: Ready. Can you start that from the beginning? Astley: Huh? Franklin: Can you start that story from the beginning? We’re rolling. You were at a meeting with US and Russian reactor designers. Astley: The Russian was up there explaining the fundamental design of their new reactor group, which included the design of the Chernobyl. He explained what they were doing, and it was obvious to me then, you know, that—in our reactors we under-moderated them because then you get a negative temperature coefficient. So the reactor hopes to—tries to shut itself down. Theirs is going to make it worse. Okay, so, I can’t get up and say anything about this, because if I do, one of the—they say, why are you doing that? Well, I can say, you know, to have a negative temperature coefficient. But I’m not allowed to help them. And furthermore, if you under-moderate, you increase the production of plutonium. And the fact that those physicists didn’t figure that out, it blows my mind, you know? Fermi figured that out. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, in this meeting, then I stood up to ask them a question. And immediately, the guy that’s standing behind him walks up and takes the microphone. Now, this guy gave a speech in really quite good English. And he says, I’m sorry, we’ll let you know that although he can speak English pretty well when he’s practiced it to give the English speech, he really doesn’t understand English very well. So I will interpret for you. So, he answers my question with nonsense. He doesn’t know anything about anything. [LAUGHTER] And so there was no exchange. And then later we had a meeting where you have some drinks and you can mingle around and I hunted this guy down again. And immediately this same guy shows up. So he’s going to conduct the conversation between us. Franklin: Right. Astley: Anyway, later on, that was the Chernobyl. And it had the positive temperature coefficient. Of course it went blooey. You know? Our reactors weren’t like that, but very difficult to explain that to public. Gain any believability. So the scatter was still there. Then we whittled down the reactor. But there was no radiation, because even those reactors were—all our commercial reactors were built with negative temperature coefficients. It’s a safety problem. Everybody in the commercial world was either trained here at Hanford or back at Westinghouse at [UNKNOWN]. So that was sort of long ingrained to us to try to make it as safe as you can be. And that you don’t want to melt something down. That’s an economic problem, not a safety problem. But that’s never been—we’ve never been able to convince people that have a gut feeling that it’s an atomic bomb. And those are the people who prevail. Because those words are much more receptive to get attention of the public. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: Then I guess, as maybe you’re a historian of a type? Well, here is the thing that I think, if there’s one thing in my life that still peeves me—when I got moved from GE, I had a Super Secret clearance. Not just the Q, but one above it. Because I knew how much plutonium we were making and how many caps we were making, bombs we were making, that kind of stuff. And so I had gone out of the library when I had this N Reactor, and looked for—searched things. And I saw some stuff by Fermi. And so I got two of his workbooks, brought them back and started looking. And he had a couple of ideas—particularly one that helped design the control rods, because a control rod is so black. You know, it absorbs all of its neutrons in about that much. And we didn’t have any diffusion—[UNKNOWN] didn’t work for that. And he had some ideas about how he might approach that and how he did approach it. And then he went on to talk about a bunch of other things. You know, ti was all his own handwriting. And he’d scratch out and say, dumb idea. Now, he’d go on and it was a beautiful thing to read. So, when I went to GE, I tried to check those out and take them into Battelle, to take them. But I had lost my clearances. Said, you can’t have them. But if you get a clearance—so when I went over there, I applied for clearances and got them. Six months later, I go back, but some kind of a thing came out from AEC that a certain date type things were no longer considered classified, so burn them. So they burned. Franklin: They burned Fermi’s personal notebooks? Wow. Astley: That irritates me. Franklin: Yeah, that irritates me, too. Especially because I’m an archivist. Astley: Yeah! Franklin: I deal with people’s personal matters and archival material. That’s really a tragedy. Astley: Yeah. But you know, one of the geniuses of our time. Wouldn’t have probably made it without his help, his guidance. You don’t preserve something like that? It’s pretty irritating. Franklin: Yes. What year—when exactly did you come off the FFTF? You said that Westinghouse took over FFTF; were you off the project then when Westinghouse came on? Astley: The which Franklin: Sorry, when— Astley: Oh, when they were breaking up? Franklin: No, you mentioned you were designing FFTF and then Westinghouse— Astley: Took over. Franklin: Were you off the project then? Astley: I asked to get off the project, and— Franklin: Okay, and what year was that? Astley: Probably early ’69, I think. Franklin: Okay. Astley: And so it just happened that the guy that was running the other department, a big one, decided—he was a statistician of note in the world, and that’s really what he liked, and it was really distracting. He didn’t get enough time to work on his own stuff. So at the time that I became available then, a friend who also knew this was going on, and so there was a spot for me to move on, still reporting to him. So I took over, applied theoretical math, applied theoretical physics, world economics, that type of stuff. It suited me pretty well. Franklin: And that was at Battelle? Astley: At Battelle, right. Franklin: Okay. And what other projects did you work on after FFTF? Astley: Well, then I left Battelle in ’71 and joined Exxon Nuclear. Franklin: Oh, okay. Astley: And became vice president of Exxon Nuclear making fuel. Plus a lot of other things. And during that time, then, I started up the Exxon Nuclear centrifuge program, and also the laser enrichment program. I had both of those. And both of them did very well. The centrifuge project got enough so that we actually bid and won a contract with—I can’t remember whether it was still AEC or—I’m a little confused on timing between AEC to DoE. Can’t tell you. Franklin: Yeah, sure. Astley: One of those guys asked three different organizations to bid on making 50 centrifuges at a cost, fixed price contract and deliver them to Oak Ridge. So they could determine whether or not somebody other than Oak Ridge could make something or [UNKNOWN]. So we bid on it, fixed price. Built them, delivered them within six months. That was our first large [UNKNOWN] They were then put into Oak Ridge and into their cascades, and they were running—they ran for a whole year when they decided to then implement the next stage, which was to build 5,000 of them. In the meantime, Boeing and Goodyear were still negotiating with AEC. And saying that, hey, these are too developmental. No way can we built at cost. So they came out with a new bid. We bid on it. We were the only ones that had any manufacturing experience on centrifuges. We put on a fixed price bid again for the 5,000. And Goodyear and Boeing finally gave up on bidding the 50 and had the same problems with bidding 5,000. Then they opened up the bids and we were eliminated on the basis that we didn’t have manufacturing experience. That we were Exxon, we were chemical engineers, et cetera, whereas Boeing and Goodyear were hardnosed mechanical people. So we were knocked out of that bidding. So my project was shut down. Which was rather hard to take. Since we were, at that time, still at—our centrifuges we made for them up running well, gave them no problems. They started up, they were never shut down in that year. And we had better statistical data than Oak Ridge did on the ones that they had had made. So that knocked us out of that. At that time, we—and I had already gone to the board of directors of Exxon and sat in their thing and got approval to go forward with a $1.5 billion project. Two phases--$900 for the first phase and the rest for the second phase to build an enormous centrifuge phase, which would then put Exxon into the commercial enrichment business, instead of the government. And our prices were going to be 30% lower than theirs, which I thought was a good thing for the American public. But it wasn’t. Franklin: Why wasn’t it? Astley: Because President Carter was in charge. I had a friend of mine who was on—a good friend—who was one of his cabinet. I asked him one day, I told him how we’d got cut out. And I said, I can’t understand that. I mean, what’s wrong? What made that decision? Couldn’t have been [UNKNOWN] And he said, well, don’t tell anybody—and he’s died since, so he’s not in jeopardy—but he said, I sat in the cabinet meeting and it was explained to us by the head of the AEC at that time what the situation was. And they felt that they wanted to work—they were going to award us the contract immediately, but contingent to negotiate with the other people. So then Carter said, who did you say? And they said, Exxon. And he rams his—bam! Exxon’s already controlling the damn energy of the world, I don’t want them meddling in the reactors also [UNKNOWN]. Find some way to disqualify them. That’s what really happened. There’s no record of that. Franklin: Yeah. Astley: So it’s not very—I guess you’d call that the height of hearsay. And then about four months later, they shut down the laser plant. And we came in at that point, the boss offered the AEC to continue to operate that, since it was very promising. And it was going to make [UNKNOWN] like 30%. You know, that’s even better than centrifuges. And he offered to operate the plant for a dollar a year, just like DuPont did at the beginning, and continue the thing. And then he said, when the plant first gets on its feet, I’d like to be paid back for the $80 million I’ve invested in this in the operating profits. AEC said, no. We don’t want you involved in this. So they went and said, [UNKNOWN] buy out all your equipment for ten cents on the dollar and we’ll transfer it down to California. Because they’re also experts on lasers. So they shut that down. And a lot of politics involved behind the scenes on this whole nuclear business, which it seemed to me that I had a little black cloud that way. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, there’s kind of a common thread running through a lot of your stories. Astley: Yeah! But that was really the—to try to explain how that laser enrichment worked is a little difficult. Franklin: I’m sure. Astley: For somebody that isn’t technically trained. Franklin: That would be me. Astley: Yeah. That’s all. But that was a beautiful project. But I had already gotten—and then I also had already gotten [UNKNOWN] to go forward with the first step of a fairly large prototype for $50 million. So I had the total board behind me. And in fact, when I went in front of the board of directors at [UNKNOWN], I was supposed to give a thirty minute talk. Because I had to go to the board because I was asking for $1.5 billion. If it had been less than a billion, I could have gone to the management staff instead. That would have been too small for Exxon to worry about at the board level. The only company to do that. In fact, they’re allowed to round their income tax off to the nearest dollar. I think probably things have changed, but—anyway, during that, at the end of an hour and a half, and I’m still talking about this project. Finally, the chairman puts up his hands. Fellows, he said, we’ve kept Mr. Astley here for an hour and a half. He was only supposed to be thirty minutes. I don’t think any more questions we’ll learn any more. And he’s told us everything; we should have enough information at this point whether to go forward with this. And [UNKNOWN] who’d just come back from being Treasurer for whoever was—I don’t remember who it was then—Ford, maybe? Ford, probably. Yeah, I’m sure it was Ford. He’d taken a leave of absence to be Treasurer and came back. He’d just—finally he says, you know, to the chairman, he says, Mr. Chairman, we have enough information to go forward. Let’s show these goddamn AEC people how private industry can do the job. [LAUGHTER] So I got my money. But it didn’t prove to be a giant sinkhole for Exxon. But those kind of things were going on that made my life interesting. Franklin: Yeah. When did you leave Exxon? Astley: I left Exxon in ’83. They were going direction—they wanted to get out of the nuclear business. And they didn’t mind continuing the fuels business because we had such a good reputation for—I think we bid on business since at least ten years. Never had a fuel failure. Anybody who ever produced, which nobody else in the world could claim. And we knew how to make fuel. I was heading up the fuel plant here in Richland at that point and the one in Langer, Germany. But I had other projects going which were very successful and they shut those all down to concentrate simply on fuel. So I’d sort of worked that, and about that time I got a call from Sandvik and they, [UNKNOWN] he said, I’m retiring, and I’d like to talk to about taking over for me. And so I did. It sounded like a good [UNKNOWN], you know? I guess my feeling was it was going to be a lot more fun to be a big fish in a little puddle. So I went in ’83 and retired from there in ’91. During that time, here’s the technology that we—you know, at that time, Sandvik was building nuclear fuel tubes from zirconium for three different companies. Babcock, Wilcox Combustion and Exxon. So that was a direct application of nuclear information. Because the design of all that came from having worked for Hanford [unknown]. And so during that time, it became obviously that the world was shrinking and that there was too many people looking for too few fuel tubes. So I put the company into titanium. And I found out that the aircraft people were moving strongly toward titanium tubing for all of their jets. So I started that as a diversification. And I told Sandvik that I thought within five to ten years that we were very likely to have no more work. I said there’s got to be consolidation. And I thought, ten, twelve years, French bought out Exxon—or Germans began it and they bought out the Germans. And now the group was French, running that plant there. And exactly it happened, so Combustion Engineering was bought by Germans, I think. I can’t remember who. So all of our customers were no longer, so we had no zirconium. So all we did was titanium. And while I was there, I was glad that personally the titanium golf shaft, utilizing nuclear energy technology. Franklin: What is that? Astley: Golf shafts? Franklin: Yeah. Astley: You know, golf. Franklin: Oh! Astley: And when I came in, 99% were using steel. And there were people trying to make using fibers which weren’t very successful. So I introduced titanium and got—the guy I made a friend of, the chairman of TaylorMade who had invented the metal clubs—got him interested in taking a look at titanium heads plus then matching them with a titanium shaft. And got his whole staff there to agree that this shaft was better than anything in the market. But it jumped the price of shafts. I had to charge $18 a shaft. They were paying 50 cents. So that was a big change. And I managed to get that settled in. He said, hey, we’re in a big fight. A driver costs somewhere between $90 and $100. And if you try to get over $100, suddenly they start shying away because they’re pretty much the same. They claim different. But at any rate, I said, well, that’s not what you want to do. I said this gives you the chance to have something that’s uniquely different. So instead of just charging for $18, I mean $99, make your clubs sell for $199. Because you have something to sell. And he said, yeah, he said, you should have been my marketing manager. I said, well, I am, I’m trying to sell you titanium. But anyway, I went out to dinner with him and at the end I said, okay, you’re really enthused about this. So I said I need an order from you. And he said what would you like to have your order start with? And I said, I’d like to start with at least 25,000 shafts the first year. And I’ll give you an exclusive for the first year. So he pulled over a napkin from the bar sort of thing, and he writes on it, I agree to buy 50,000 shafts from Sandvik special models at $18 a shaft with exclusive rights for one year, signed his name. So I took that back to—only way you could do this would be private industry. Go back to my [UNKNOWN] and say hey, here’s the order I just got. He’s a Mormon, doesn’t drink. He said, this looks like a stain on a cocktail napkin to me. And I said, yeah, that’s where I got the order. So he photographs it or something and puts it in. But I imagine if I had been trying to do something at the AEC, that might not have flown. Franklin: Right, yeah. Astley: [LAUGHTER] They’d have at least 15 regulations [UNKNOWN] Franklin: And they’d need it in triplicate, too. Astley: Oh, yeah, right. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about living in Richland during the Cold War. And working at Hanford during that time. You’ve mentioned some previous experiences with Russian scientists. I was wondering if you could talk about how the Cold War affected you and your work and your family. Astley: I think it really didn’t affect us a lot. I lived in north Richland and I built a home there. I think the thing that was interesting was that, first of all, of course, by ’54 there was enough of Richland. So what we used to call the termination winds were not so severe anymore, because we had all the trees and the houses. So it was a little bit more protected. So that didn’t—although even then, we had some pretty fair gust storms compared to now—really bad. And at that time, you didn’t have all these fancy windows. They were all sash windows, so they leaked like a sieve. So every time we had a dust storm, the inside of the house was covered everywhere with a little layer of dust. And I would say that perturbed my wife. [LAUGHTER] And all the other wives. Because that meant a lot of work, you know. It wasn’t as if you just go in and dust something. I mean, the whole damn place had to be vacuumed. All the windows, everything that had a surface. And it wasn’t a minor thing. You could write your name in everything. Fraknlin: Wow. Astley: So that was something, I think, that certainly most of the females probably had to do the work. The kids didn’t care. I think they were kind of oblivious of everything in terms of the Hanford experiences. So I didn’t see much effect there. But in 1960, then, I guess they were probably DoE by then but I’m still not sure. But they then decided to, with the Corps of Engineers, to sell the town and get out of being <a href="https://youtu.be/GBNkByNJDys">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1991 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eugene Astley Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Nuclear power plants Breeder reactors Description An account of the resource Eugene Astley moved to Richland, Washington in 1954. Eugene worked on the Hanford Site from 1954-1991. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/05/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd03ed5496b28bc5658b6cedbb7811a1c.jpg cdf4ad783592d80ab92e4e8de08a9132 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd07e75b7aa3d6bdc185fd241f7c3d1c0.mp4 f04f6245b14fb6b4a256f244212221ba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Reagan, Douglas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walkley, Evelyn Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: First of all, will you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Evelyn Walkley: Evelyn Walkley. E-V-E-L-Y-N, W-A-L-K-L-E-Y. O’Reagan: All right, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview on February 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be speaking with Ms. Walkley about her experiences around this area—around the Hanford area and the Tri-Cities area over the 20th Century. Well, thanks for being here. I understand you moved here when you were just a little girl. Walkley: That’s correct. My family moved here in late 1943. So I was ten years old and in the fifth grade. And my father was a journeyman carpenter, so he was recruited to come out for the Hanford Project. Told not to bring his family, because there wasn’t housing. But he brought his family. O’Reagan: Do you remember anything from your life before moving here? Walkley: Yes. We came from Oklahoma and I remember being on a small farm there. The year, or a year-and-a-half before we came here, we had lived in Leadville, Colorado for a few months. Again, my father was working on some—actually, it was a training facility for the Army, I think, up in the mountains of Colorado. I remember being there, and I was in the fourth grade. Very, very crowded school, and you shared your desks and you did not throw away a piece of paper unless it had been written on margins, front side, back side, because the supplies were in short supply. O’Reagan: What were your first impressions of—was it Pasco you moved to? Walkley: Yes. I can remember us driving up—we came over the hills of Pendleton and at some point, hit the Columbia River. I can remember, as a fifth grade kid, knowing that Washington was the Evergreen State. We were getting very close to Washington and I couldn’t figure out where the trees were—how—where is this? We came in to Pasco on a very hot Sunday. We spent the day trying to find a place to live. And there wasn’t one. So that night, my parents parked by the city park in Pasco. We were pulling a trailer and somehow or other, they could raise the lid on this and my parents slept in this trailer. My brother and I slept in the car. That’s where we spent the very first night. No, I take it back: that might have been a Saturday. And then the next day, we went around looking for a place. We found out about this trailer park that is roughly in the area of 10th and Clark in Pasco. Essentially, this was an alfalfa field, and if you had a trailer you could park there. We did not have a trailer, so we pitched a tent that we had brought. The first week we lived in that tent, and there was just a ground cover. My dad started to work. At some point in the next few days, he was able to build a floor and the sides part way up this tent, and then rafters to make it so that you could stand up in it. We lived in that tent for a year. After the year, they were able to buy a little cabin on this place. Of course, none of this—we must have had electricity, but I know that we did not have running water. But at any rate, then they pulled the tent over beside this cabin, and my parents then basically—the cabin was our living room, kitchen, and my parents’ bedroom, and my brother and I slept in the tent. When we were all in the tent, my dad had built double bunkbeds. My parents slept down and my brother and slept up. Because we were all in this 14 by 14 tent. So it’s pretty cozy. O’Reagan: How did the weather treat you? I would think that would get pretty hot and cold in the seasons. Walkley: It was. It, I believe, had some sort of a cook stove. And probably that’s what my mother cooked on. I can remember pretty clearly us being newly in this tent and my parents going to get groceries. And during that time, there was wind blowing. When they came back, everything was covered with sand. I can remember my mother just setting down and crying. She hated it; she wanted to go back to God’s country. But you’d learn to live with sand. Now, it was much better once we had a floor. I can remember my mother bringing in clothes from the clothesline and that they were frozen—and it was kind of freeze-dried. But she’d bring them in, and they’d thaw, and somehow or other dried. But it was—if the wind blew, the wind blew, and the tent flapped all around. And if it was cold, it was cold in the tent. And if it was hot, it was hot in the tent. But other people in this trailer park, and other people in the whole area were in similar circumstances. We did not use our car at all while we were here, because the gas rationing points went to whoever my father carpooled with to get to Richland and Hanford. So any place we went, we walked. So you walked to the movies, standing in line. You walked to the grocery store, which, at that time, downtown Pasco was centered in 4th and Lewis, and just two or three blocks around from that. So we walked all of those places. Walked to school. I went to Longfellow School, which—I don’t know how far that was, but I’d walk on 10th Street, and they were building homes to the west side of 10th Street. When the wind would blow, that sand would come off of there, and would just beat against your legs. I can remember that being a stressful time, because there wasn’t any concern about air pollution. And I’m sure that watering trucks were not available to them, and they were building homes as fast as they could. That was because, essentially, the homes in Pasco ended about 10th Street. So it was—when I think about it now, I think it was really pretty primitive and we were sort of poor folks. But then, so was everybody else. And this was all for the war effort. It was—I think the country was 100% into the war effort. Way different than Vietnam and Korea. So we were saving aluminum foil off of pieces of gum. I’m sure we turned it in to someplace. I never knew where that aluminum went to—probably the trash. O’Reagan: What did you do for water? Walkley: Oh. We must have carried water from some central faucet. I don’t really remember the carrying the water. But I know we didn’t have any running. I think we did have an electric light. I don’t remember any other electric appliances. We may have had them. I was a ten-year-old kid. I didn’t pay attention. But I know that we did not have any indoor plumbing. There was a wash area in the facilities that we used for at least the first year. The second year, I think we maybe had a washing machine of our own. You just carried water, heated it on a stove. Hot water tanks are really nice to have in a home. And running water. O’Reagan: We haven’t spoken to very many people who lived in Pasco in this era, so this is really, really fascinating stuff. Can you tell us about any of the other people who lived near you, or any of the other children you met? Walkley: Most of the other children that I recall early on were native children. They had grown up here. I think that most of the people that I recall in the trailer park were adults. Because they probably heeded don’t bring your families. I know that my parents recruited an aunt and uncle to come up. My uncle worked out on the Hanford Project someplace; my aunt worked at what’s called Big Pasco, which is the big warehouse areas on the river in Pasco. That was all an Army supply depot. My aunt said they had everything from sewing needles to tanks that came in there and were dispersed out. My cousins were older. The place where we lived, that had essentially been an alfalfa farm. I remember my parents talking about our landlords, which were—Fosters was their name—that he had to grow alfalfa and hay to feed his horse. And he had to have the horse because he needed something to help him till the ground. So this just seemed like, stop both of those things and you’re better off! And they did, because they were renting out. I have no idea what we paid to have this tent area. The area in the trailer park—most of the trailers were homemade. There was one Spartan trailer there. I think, maybe, the CREHST Museum had a Spartan trailer. It was aluminum siding and curved front windows. It was a mansion. There was one of those. But I have no experience with the camps that were in Richland and with all of the servicemen that were in Richland. I was a kid, and we didn’t get to Richland, because we were walking. It was—like I say, my mother hated it. She couldn’t wait until the war was over and we could go back to God’s country. But she did find out in 1945, when we did go back for a year and a half that God’s country was economically depressed. So we came back here permanently then in 19—late ’46 or early 1947, and have been here ever since. But as—I believe that the windstorms were worse then, just because of the farming and the construction that was going on. I don’t know that the winds were any worse. But it was a lot dirtier then than it is now. Part of it is different farming practices, not as much construction. And then the people that—when there’s construction sites, now, they’re running water trucks back and forth. And they weren’t doing that in 1944. O’Reagan: Were you still living in that cabin when you moved back, or did you move somewhere else? Walkley: No, when we moved back, we actually moved into a basement apartment that was on 3rd Street in Pasco. I don’t remember the number, but it was north of what is now Pasco City Hall. At the time that we moved there, it was Pasco High School plus a junior high school. We were about three blocks from there, and at that point, then, I was in the seventh grade. Like I say, that was Pasco High School and Pasco Junior High School. Then at some point, my parents purchased a home that was out in the middle of nowhere, and essentially it was—there was no housing around it. This was on Brown Street in Pasco, and from Henry to Court, except for their house, there were no other houses. 5th Street to 10th Street, there wasn’t—and that house had just been—I don’t know when the house was built—pre-war, I’m sure. And it was old. They purchased that in probably 1948 or ’49. And essentially there was just a dirt road—two-lane road going to the house. And then it was kind of normal life. O’Reagan: Was your father still a carpenter throughout this time? Walkley: Yes, he was doing carpentry work until he retired in like 1968, something like that. And in the meantime, they had purchased a little farm on Road 68. It still is a little farm on Road 68. But he was watering and taking care of a few acres of concord grapes while he was also doing carpentry work. O’Reagan: Can you tell us about going to school at, you said, Pasco High? Walkley: Yes. So when we moved back, I was in the seventh grade, and went to the high school, because the junior high was there and, at that time, the north wing was just being built. So you could tell by that that Pasco was really still quite small. My husband and I were in school together, but we did not actually start dating or anything until after we were out of high school. But he actually was a native born, one of the few in the area. His mother actually was born in Walla Walla and he was actually born in Walla Walla, but they lived west of the—what was Central Pre-Mix. It’s somebody else now, but the gravel pit that’s out on West Court Street. They lived on the river where Court Street takes a right angle turn and goes away from the river. So I would say he was part of the downriver people, because their well had to have been Columbia River water. But, like I say, he was a native. His parents had a Chris Craft indoor—not indoor—inboard motorboat—I don’t think I’m using the right term. But at any rate, the government came and said, we want to use your boat. Because they were doing sounding on the Columbia River, and the boat that they had, that apparently was a five horse outboard motor, would not hold the current. So we want to requisition your boat. So apparently my husband’s dad said, well, you can have the boat, but not without me. So he went to work in his boat. And if it was good weather, they did surveying—sometimes in the river and sometimes not. I think if the weather was really bad—and I don’t know whether he went to work or not—but at any rate, at that time, there were really just two big boats on the river, his and I think Havstad’s, which—the Havstad House was what’s now called the Moore Mansion, that’s by the Blue Bridge. So he was—his—my husband’s parents, Glen and Elvira Walkley, were natives. He was PUD commissioner for years and years and active in the community. But let the government use his boat during the war time. O’Reagan: If you were describing your education, your time in high school to students today, what would be different? Trying to get an idea for what life was like. Walkley: Different—that’s the like of automobiles. There was one student that I can recall in the whole high school that would come to school in a car. My husband would also come to school in a vehicle, partly because of the distance that he lived, and he was involved with sports and so there was nothing like an activities bus. But I can remember being in the third floor of that building in the home ec room and looking down and see him coming in. And sometimes he rode in a Cushman scooter, and he’d get off and take off sheep-lined leather clothing, if it was cold. Sometimes he would come in a pickup, and sometimes he would come in a truck, because he was a farm kid. Once in a while, he would come in his folks’ Cadillac. And none of us—most of us—just didn’t know about Cadillac cars. The big fishtails on them. But otherwise, people walked to school, or the kids way out in the country rode the bus. It never—for one thing there would not have been the cars available, and you would not have been able to afford them if they had been. I think that’s probably the biggest thing. Of course, the idea of cell phones—we wouldn’t even have dreamt about that. But our communication was talking to one another. O’Reagan: I guess you still covered—you say you had home ec—I guess you covered the same classes though. Walkley: I was on a track for going to college. But I was taking—the other thing, probably is they’re doing more advanced studies than we ever did. The highest math that I ever had was solid geometry and trigonometry. We didn’t have any calculus. The other thing is the role of girls. There was one other girl in those two upper math classes; and physics class, I think there were only two girls. Now I’m sure it’s just not that way. Plus, the classes are much bigger. Now, the chemistry class—because I think a lot of people must have had to take chemistry—it was pretty well covered, but not physics. I have a story about college. I went to what was then the College of—Washington State College. I went there for two years and then got married, so went a year at Occidental in Los Angeles, and then finished up at what was then the College of Puget Sound, which is now University, like WSU is a University. My major was economics and my minor was geology. When I was at the University of Puget Sound, one of the requirements was a summer geology trip on the San Juan Islands. I was the only female in this geology class. My husband was in the Air Force. They politely told me that if I would not go on that trip, they would not require it. The reason was they had no facilities for a female on that trip. One weekend campout that we had, they wanted to know if my husband could come. Oh!—I was dumb—I said, sure. You know, is it okay if he comes? Yes, we would like him to come. So he didn’t have duty, and so he came and we slept in the back of our station wagon. And, again, I was so unaware that I didn’t realize they wanted him there as a chaperone because I was the only female in this geology class. That’s something absolutely unheard of—I mean, that sort of thing would not happen today. O’Reagan: That’s really interesting. Was it your ambition, initially, to go to college? Did your parents have thoughts about you going to college? Walkley: It was my idea to go to college. My parents, I don’t recall them ever encouraging it, or ever really discouraging it, except that I was so excited when I graduated, because one of the things was I got a $50 scholarship. Well, the economics of things was the $50 wasn’t going to let me go to college. So I did work for a year after high school, and saved money. Because the first year that I went to Pullman, I went there with just about $1,000. And that got me through that first year at college. I must have made enough money in the summer that I could go back the second year. That’s also unheard of now. I think my mother would send me $2 cash a week, so I could—I had $2 cash: I was rich. And even at college, very few students had cars. For one thing, there wasn’t parking, and for another thing, you just didn’t. A few must have, because I know I carpooled with somebody to go and come. But that was different. I happened to be at WSU when Bing Crosby’s twins were going to school there. They had a car, and they would park in front of the library building. Was some sort of a Ford convertible. And they would set there, and I’m sure they were chick magnets, because of their name. But very few students had cars. O’Reagan: So you transferred from Washington State College to Occidental, you said? Walkley: Yes. O’Reagan: Why did you transfer? Walkley: I transferred there because my husband was going to college at California Institute of Technology, Caltech, who’s part of the LIGO system. And that’s where he was going to school. So we lived in student housing on the Occidental campus, and he commuted. But he was a year ahead of me, because he didn’t have to—he didn’t stay out the year that I did. He graduated, and then he was in the Air Force ROTC after—late summer, he was called into the Air Force. We were in Ohio for a while and then he was stationed at McChord. So that’s why I finished up at the University of Puget Sound, which was, like I said a college then. O’Reagan: So was he called up for the Korean war at that point? Walkley: We were between wars at that point. My history is foggy, but it was—I wish I could remember when the Korean War was. O’Reagan: ’55, I think. Was this the ‘50s, the ‘60s? Walkley: I know that he served two years. His ROTC class was one of the last that their commitment was two years. He was an engineer. The Air Force had really wanted to try to recruit pilots, but Caltech let the Air Force know that, no, we’re producing engineers and scientists and those kind of folks. You’re better to use them in that than to train them as pilots. So he went in as an engineer and had two years, and then after that, there was no Air Force reserve here. So he would just go to Fairchild during the summer for some training. But there was a period of time that he was on a 24-hour notice that if they’d call him up, he had 24 hours to report someplace. So that might have been Korea. That would have been in the ‘60s. But I hate to kind of show my ignorance of history. O’Reagan: I’m a historian, I get dates wrong all the time. Walkley: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: So when you were assigned to go to college, was that just to better yourself? Was it because you wanted to get a job out of it? Walkley: I don’t know that I had any lofty reasons. I think it was because I thought that this was what you should do. Neither one of my parents were college graduates. But I had seen my parents working on the farm before the war, and I guess I thought that that’s just what I needed to do to be able to support myself. Now this was before women’s liberation. It was all before that. And then ironically as it turned out, about the time that my husband was getting out of the Air Force, this opportunity to farm what had not been a historical family farm—they had purchased—and Van’s folks, he and his sisters had purchased this farm, because they had had ground at the Eltopia area, which was the Bureau of Reclamation came in because of Grand Coulee Dam, and they chose to not keep any land there. So in a tax-free exchange, they turned the money into buying the place that we farmed. Well, that opportunity to farm came up, so we did a 180-degree turn, and instead of him being an engineer and building highways, which is what he did before the Air Force, we started farming. And did that for 57 years. O’Reagan: What did you grow? Walkley: When we moved to the farm, it was all dryland. And this farm was east of Ice Harbor Dam, about five miles. It was all dryland, and so we grew dryland wheat. Because of the farm program, you couldn’t grow all wheat—so we would grow barley and/or rye. In the mid ‘60s, that part of agriculture was fairly depressed, and so my husband had the idea that we’d start watering things. So we started irrigating supplemental, just. And then over the years, we kept adding to this irrigation system. So when the farm was sold in late 2013, half of our acres were irrigated and half was still dryland. So all of that was my husband doing, but we turned a piece of land that was barely giving us a living to something that was really a pretty good diversified farm. O’Reagan: Why don’t we pull open a map here and see if we can—just get my chair forward here. See if we can get a view of where we’re talking about here. Walkley: Okay. O’Reagan: Okay. Walkley: Okay. All of this really dark area is probably the Snake River Vineyard, and we were next door to them. So Highway 124—got to get my glasses focused here. O’Reagan: Sure. Walkley: So basically, our farm was here. And then we wind around some. And then here, this section right in here was not us. Oops! That was a little too much. And so we pumped out of the river at—that’s the spot where we pumped out of the river. So basically, we’re—and this corner section. And then all of this was really hilly, sandy area. So that’s where we farmed. And the dam is here and Charbonneau Park is right in this area. O’Reagan: That’s a lot of territory. Did you have to get help in farming all that? Walkley: The first few years, when it was all dryland, we only had help during harvest time. Once in a while, we’d hire somebody just temporary, just doing tractor work. Mostly, my job was chasing parts and cooking for the harvest crew. Once in a while, I’d have to drive tractor for a couple of weeks. This was not anything I really enjoyed doing. And then also bookwork. I did the bookwork for the farm all the time, including the taxes. And I did that until—well, basically, our daughter had a major stroke in 2007, and this took a lot of time with her rehab. So some of our taxes, I had to have a CPA do during some of that time—some I still could do. So I was the bookkeeper and the cook. O’Reagan: Did other people farming around you grow the same things you did? Walkley: They did at first, but about the same time we put in irrigation, so did the neighbors. After a year or two of having potatoes, the neighbors then—I think they weren’t selling—then basically went into Snake River Vineyards and concord grapes. And then on the other side of us, it for a long time was still the same—it was either rangeland or the same sort of farming. And then Broetje Orchards went—well, Broetje Orchards and AgriNorthwest. AgriNorthwest, the area that they had out there actually started with some local farmers in Eureka, and that was called K2H. And then it was AgriNorthwest. They went into—virtually everything, then, that they farmed was irrigated. It definitely changed the landscape, changed the economics of it all. A lot of the ground that we would irrigate, we would rent out. Only when it rotated to wheat or maybe soybeans, then, if it was potatoes or a sweet corn or alfalfa hay, we rented that out and then just did the watering for it. We took care of our irrigation system, the sprinklers, and managed all the water. O’Reagan: Where did you learn to farm? Was this knowledge you had from your parents? Walkley: No. Van had—when his parents had had land in the Eltopia area, that was dryland wheat farming. So he knew about that. My experience was on a small farm in Oklahoma that was basically a subsistence farm. We had enough cows that we could sell milk to the PET milk company, and a few acres of orchard so we could sell apples. But it was 50 acres of very diversified sort of farming. So that did not give me a lot of experience with over 5,000 acres of dryland wheat farming. My husband knew how to do this, and he was very smart. So we’d go to growers’ meetings and somehow or other, we made it. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: That’s interesting. I’m interested in how people develop their farms, learn new techniques, that sort of thing. Was the Growers’ Association a big deal in the area? Walkley: Yes. We were involved with the Washington Association of Wheat Growers on a county level. And the County Extension puts on programs. We belonged to the grange. There’s educational things. Visiting with the neighbors. We had to learn how to take care of the ground, because western Walla Walla County, at least where we were, was really lots of sandy loam. Similar to some of the Horse Heavens. So you have to treat that gently, or it’s going to blow away. So we learned, we did different things. One year I can remember, my husband went to Christmas tree sales lots the day after Christmas. He loaded up a truck with Christmas trees. We put those out on sand hills to try to hold it down. We’d spread straw for years and years and years on sand hills. And in fact, when we sold the farm, that was still something that we were doing to try to hold down sand hills. We were also using straw in tracks that the sprinklers make. So you’re using straw in dryland and irrigated both. But back to the wartime, I’m just thinking about how that was. Of course there was various kinds of not just gas rationing, but shoes—I mean leather, and other things. The attitude is so different now. We were content to not be able to buy as many bananas as you wanted, because if they had bananas in, you were limited to buying six of them, for instance. We were all in the same boat. I don’t recall of there being complaints about this. I don’t know if some of those shortages—how people would react to them now, when we’re used to so much abundance. But that’s just what you did. And as for what was happening at Hanford, that was on our radar. We knew it was secret—you know, my dad was just building things. And in fact, he did a lot of building not out on the Project, but in the City of Richland. So some of the older warehouse buildings and things would have been buildings that he worked on. As a ten-year-old, this just did not faze me a lot. When we moved back, the flood of 1948 certainly affected us. My mother at that time was working in Richland, and she was able to take the train from Pasco to get to Richland. And then she stayed there for the week, and then get back again, because the highway bridge—which was the old green bridge, which is gone—that was flooded. And the road through Columbia Park that was the main road, that was flooded. So you couldn’t get there from here. I can remember it all because then I was having to take care of the little strawberry patch that we had. My father was, maybe at that point then, doing construction in Pasco. I don’t recall him having the trouble getting to work that my mother had. But much smaller population center. Schools, much smaller. It was just a very interesting time. I think you all are doing a great job with this project, because the people that really did know about Hanford and everything that was going on, you’ve got to get them interviewed before they die off. Because we’re getting to be pretty old! [LAUGHTER] To have lived through this. O’Reagan: Were you ever interested in local politics of the area at all? Walkley: Well, only to the extent that my father-in-law was an elected PUD commissioner. When we were really in the political realm, then we were living in Walla Walla County, and so divorced from the Tri-Cities politics. Of course, nobody asked me my opinion, so nobody gets the benefit of my years of wisdom. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Were you aware of the down-winders controversies? Were they in your area? Walkley: Yes. We were well aware of those. I sometimes do wonder if—now my husband had—in 2000 was diagnosed with lymphoma. And lymphoma, they think, has multiple causes, and maybe it’s multiple triggers that have to trigger at the right time. I wonder if that had anything to do with drinking Columbia River water. I don’t know, and it isn’t anything that I would pursue. What happened with the iodine releases and the winds, I’m not part of that. I did wonder when Mount St. Helens blew, why there wasn’t a better forecast of where those clouds were going. Because I thought, Hanford area should have had a lot of information on the winds and where things go. So it was surprising that, say, Ritzville and Pullman and various places didn’t know after it blew that—okay, because of the conditions, this is what you’re going to be getting. That was a surprise to me. Way off the subject. O’Reagan: No. Did that impact your life? Walkley: It impacted it only peripherally. The clouds were certainly something that I’ve never seen that kind of a cloud before. We didn’t have a lot of ash falling on us for some reason. My daughter was home that weekend, and driving back to Pullman for her was a real experience, because the ash was bothering her visibility. As it turned out, every morning they’d get news, well, don’t go to class this day. So she didn’t need to be there for a week, but she didn’t know that at the time that she’d left home. So it affected her that way. What was usually a two-hour, two-and-a-half-hour drive took her five or more. When she did call that she was there, she really sounded like she’d been through a stressful experience. But then it’s not very often that a volcano blows its top and does its thing. O’Reagan: During all this time, in the background there’s the Cold War going on and a lot of the fear about nuclear exchanges and all this. Was that ever something that impacted your life or your family’s? Walkley: Only that if I would go to, say, a state meeting of a group that was anti-nuclear, I could indicate that no, we’re not—as the crow flies—not all that far from the Hanford Project. We’re able to grow crops and not glowing in the dark. And also say things like, when you have tanker trucks driving up and down I-5 that’s carrying liquefied natural gas—have you thought about what kind of a hazard that is? We listened to the fire department radio when the railcar blew up in the Wenatchee railyard and devastated that area. If that train had been in the tunnel, or in Seattle when that happened, the devastation would have been unbelievable. So there are just risks and hazards all over. To our knowledge, this was an area that they were mitigating the risks. I think at the very first, in 1945—I don’t even know that the scientists knew all of the risks, because they were learning, too. But as they learned of the risks, they were taking steps to modify. Probably we’re living in one of the safest areas. O’Reagan: You say you raised children here, too? Walkley: Yes. Two children, a boy and a girl, both graduates of WSU Pullman. My daughter still lives here. My son lives in Missouri. O’Reagan: Did they go to high school around here? Walkley: They went to school in Burbank. Grade school and high school. And then both went to Pullman right after high school and graduated. My son graduated in 1980, and at that—so he decided he needed to get out in the world of work and took a job with a—actually, at that time it was called Allis Chalmers, Combine Division. So he was still involved with the farm. He was in the experimental section of combines. Then met and married a Missouri girl and she had roots in Missouri, so that’s where he’s been since college. My daughter graduated in 1982, and she worked for—started out with the Farmers’ Home Administration. It’s morphed into part of the Farm Service Agency. She was making farm loans. But in 2002—she moved various places in the state, but in 2001 she managed to get back to working at the Farm Service Agency in Pasco and was helping some on the farm. Then in 2002 she, as she said, quit a good-paying job for longer hours, less wages—what’s not to love? So she was, as she said, following Dad around to learn farming. So she was our main combine driver. But we had other employees at the time, but she was the combine driver and was at the staff meeting every morning at 7:00 and was probably going to be in a position to take over the farm until she had a major stroke in 2007. And that changed those plans. O’Reagan: Okay. So we’re also interested in the agricultural history of the area and among that, you said you were near one of the vineyards of the area? Walkley: Right. The Snake River Vineyards, which is the concord grape vineyard. That’s, again, just east of Ice Harbor Dam. I understand it’s one of the largest concord grape vineyards in the world that’s under one ownership. You know, if you look on maps, the whole Columbia Basin is called the Great American Desert. But with water, this magic elixir, you can grow anything in these soils. The amount of diversified agriculture in the Columbia Basin is astounding, if you really would see what all is grown there. There’s things that I don’t even know about. Very, very minor crops that maybe are major in the world. I really think of the Columbia Basin as a breadbasket that is feeding the world, parts of it. We have a really rich agriculture base. The big driver for that change was Grand Coulee Dam, which was power for the Hanford Project, and flood control some, and irrigation. That was really—I see that as a driver a lot for the economic—what’s happened to our area, in its growth. Certainly a big driver is Hanford, but there’s also a huge driver with the agriculture. I don’t even know everything that’s grown there. But I expect that there’s a hundred different crops grown in this area, very productively. I think that our yield of potatoes per acre is better than Idaho’s. At one time there was this saying, well, a good Idaho potato’s grown in Washington. And then Idaho potato people didn’t like that. But there certainly is potatoes and sweet corn and field corn and seed corn and peas and lentils—well, lentils are more Palouse. I think we don’t, maybe, give agriculture or farmers the recognition that they have for what they’ve done for this area. O’Reagan: Did you ever—were you sort of sticking with crops you knew and had expertise in, or did you think about changing crops for ones that were more profitable at different times? Walkley: Oh. My husband was always trying different things. Sometimes we were just before our time. I know that he grew some hard white wheat one year. We had to haul it someplace special, not in the area, to market it. We experimented with various things. We grew buckwheat for a year or two. We grew soybeans. In fact, when we grew soybeans, the Farm Service Agency and the crop insurance people had to get through—well crop insurance mostly—run through some hoops, because there was no history of soybeans here. We’ve grown canola. And so my husband was always trying something new. That was just his nature. He was really the driver of what turned that farm into dryland and to diversified. Because as I said, he was very smart and he was always thinking of, how can we do things better? We had older equipment, so it was hard to put GPS on some of them, but we were able to. And we had one fella that worked for us, started working for us in 1974. When we were trying out some GPS, my daughter said, Guadalupe will just hate that. He is not going to want to do that. Guadalupe loved the GPS, because, he said, now I can watch the equipment better, and I don’t have to worry about where I’m going. So the employees embraced it, too. I’m sure that if my husband was still alive, for Christmas he would have purchased a drone. But—yeah, he was very smart. O’Reagan: Can you tell us about some of your workers? Walkley: We’ve had all sorts of workers over the years. Like I said, first it was just during harvest that we would have extra workers. Some fellas worked for us—they would come back, year after year. At one time there was three Pasco High School teachers that drove combine for us during the summer. They—every year—would come back. Part of that was because of my cooking. But they seemed to enjoy working for us. Guadalupe, as I say, started working in 1974. When I sold the farm, he was still working for us. He liked to work, and he liked to work for us. Trying to think of some specific kind of workers. Our foreman was from Texas. He was from an area in Texas where they mostly speak Spanish; so was Guadalupe. I know when our last set of employees—people that are still working there—one is from Mexico, with a green card; he’s legal. But a fair amount from Texas. And they started out as migrants, picking asparagus. Then settled down and are full-time folks in Pasco. I think you asked me something else. I’m trying to think what it was. O’Reagan: I think that was—the most recent question was just sort of about the workers. I guess we could branch out from that to—were there any sort of big changes or trends or—you were telling sort of the history of agriculture around there. Anything that comes to mind. Walkley: Well for our farm, and the biggest change that affected me was we went from three combines and three drivers and various truck drivers and me cooking for all of them to one big combine and hauling our grain out by semi. So I still did cook for the combine driver, because it was Nannette, and later my grandson. But it wasn’t the same. Early on, when we were running three combines and all of these trucks, I took a hot meal to the field at noontime. So I had figure out how to keep things hot and how to keep things cold. The combine drivers would eat while the truck drivers were greasing the machines. Then the truck drivers would eat. And if one was at the elevator, you just waited out there until they got back and ate. Wherever they were in the field, I needed to find them and I needed to be there at 12:30 to have that lunch ready for them. That all changed. Early on, the combine drivers would stay out on the farm, and I was feeding them three meals a day. Later on they didn’t do that. I will say that for truck drivers, my husband found that our very best truck drivers were females. Part of that is because they would listen; you could teach them. Because they knew they didn’t know how to drive these trucks. Now, found out that the boys—now, they didn’t know how to drive the trucks, either, but they’re not going to admit it, and they’re not going to listen. The best truck drivers, typically that we had, as a generalization, were females. They’re easier on the equipment, and they’re teachable. And some of them spoke at my husband’s memorial service. As did some of the fellow workers that we had. To me, the driving truck was the worst job on the farm, because you had to park the truck so that when the combine was emptying, chaff wasn’t blowing back on the combine. Because early on, there were no cabs on these, and no air conditioning. My husband, who was driving combines said, I’m eating that dust all the time. I am not going to eat it while I’m unloading. So the driver always had to be parked just right. The truck driver’s just always getting in trouble because they weren’t parking just right, or they were getting stuck. I’m sure that some of these poor truck drivers would just do their best, and they would be stuck, and they’d have to call the combine. There was the times that my husband could, maybe, dig a little or put a thistle underneath a tire, get in and drive that truck out after this kid had been working and working, trying—and it must have just—if it would have been me, it would have just made me gnash my teeth! But that happened more than once. One of the girls that drove truck for us, at his memorial service said, I got stuck, and she said, I didn’t want to get stuck. I knew not to do that. But I got stuck, and Mr. Walkley had to come over and help me. And he came over and I was just so worried about it, he was going to be so mad at me. He came over and he said, do you know how to not get stuck? Don’t drive. And she said, that was the end of it. And he got me unstuck, and it was all okay. [LAUGHTER] But living on a farm is just—it is also very different from someplace else. Especially when you live there, because you’re always on the farm. Something comes up in the middle of the night. You’re just there, and you handle it. Once we got irrigation, there was a lot of things. My husband would get up in the middle of the night and go out and check the sprinklers. Or he’d get up and look in the bedroom window. We had a pressure gauge, and if that pressure wasn’t what he thought it should be, go out and check the farm and see what’s going on. So it’s a 24/7, 365 job. At least it was for us, because we lived on the farm. O’Reagan: Well, there’s always a lot that I don’t know the right question to ask. Walkley: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: What should I be asking? Walkley: Oh! I have no idea. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: We’re interested in-- Walkley: You’re supposed to be guiding me. O’Reagan: Sure. Walkley: Because we’re really digressing into farm and farming history. Which is different than the Hanford Project. And so I don’t know the right questions, either. O’Reagan: Well, so, we are interested in Hanford and the impact Hanford had on the community, but that’s not the only thing we’re interested in. We are interested in the agricultural history of the area. We’re interested in what it was like living in or around the Tri-Cities throughout this whole period. Day-to-day life, or how things have changed. Walkley: Yeah. In day-to-day life, because of the rationing, and us choosing to put our car up on blocks, we walked everyplace. We went to the movies a fair amount, which is, in a way, kind of surprising to me. But when you went to the movie, you had to stand in line. And the line could be a block or so long. But I remember standing in line, but a bus coming up with the Italian Prisoners of War that were here, that were housed in the Big Pasco area. They didn’t have to stand in line. They just went on in as a group. I could understand that, but yet—[GRUMBLES] And the entertainment was going to the movies. Now, I think for the military that was here, there was a USO building on the north side of the big park in Pasco. They would have things going on there. And I know in Richland, there was all kinds of actors, for instance, that came and entertained the troops and the folks that were working there. But that wasn’t part of our life, because we didn’t live in Richland. But I can just remember walking, doing a lot of walking everyplace. Doing without certain things—now, we never went hungry or anything like that. But there were frills you just didn’t have. Somehow or other, you entertained yourself. Partly because—I know for my dad, he probably put in long hours of working. You go home, you eat and you go to bed. The next morning, you get up and eat and go to work. But for a kid, for thinking about going to a Playground of Dreams or going here for entertainment, walking the malls for entertainment—that just wasn’t part of our life at all. I can just remember kind of playing out in the dirt. Because there weren’t a whole lot of lawns, and I know where we were living, there wasn’t. There was the remnants of the alfalfa field. Later in high school, my friend and I would—I didn’t realize it, but we were essentially babysitting her little sister. She lived in a regular house on 10th Street. At that point, we were living out in this house in the middle of nowhere, it seemed like. But to go from my place to her place, we’d have to drag her little sister’s stroller through the sand. Just that—of course, we didn’t have—there was no television. We had radios, you’d go to the movies, and that’s where you’d get a lot of the news, because they would run a newsreel first—before the main. There’d be a newsreel and there’d be a comic and maybe even a sing-along with a little bouncing ball, and you’d all sing. That is totally unheard of. Have you gone to a movie where you’ve—the whole people are singing something? O’Reagan: No. Walkley: And the words are on the screen with a little bouncing ball. But the newsreels—that’s where we got our information—video information, anyway—about the war, and what was going on. I remember listening to Edward R. Murrow and Walter Winchell, who was talking to “North and South America and all the ships at sea.” I can remember December 7, 1941, and us being glued to the radio. Probably it was a battery-operated radio. When I was a kid in Oklahoma, we did not get electricity until maybe 1939 or 1941. So we had no electricity, no running water, no indoor bathrooms. The house was eventually wired and we’d come home from school looking to see if the meter was on the meter base, which meant we had electricity. You had to pay for a minimum of kilowatts, whether you used them or not. We would watch that. And the minimum, as I recall, was 35 kilowatts. You use 35 kilowatts in half an hour now. But we had a fixture with two lightbulbs in the living room, and a matching fixture in the bedroom with one lightbulb. And this was brilliant! I mean, we could see so good! I remember those two light fixtures. I don’t remember what was in the rest of the house. Later, we had an electric-driven cream separator that was very tall. It was as big as I was. You had to crank it first to help get it started before you could switch it on to electricity. I just remember my job was cleaning the innards of this cream separator. If you’ve never done that, that is a hateful job. But something that everybody ought to have to do at some point, is clean an electric cream—now I liked putting it together. It’s very interesting, very fascinating. I liked taking it apart and putting it together. I disliked washing it. But that’s not anything you want to know. Agriculture-- O’Reagan: I also understand that unlike Richland and also in a lot of ways unlike Kennewick, Pasco had a more diverse population in a number of ways. Was that ever something you experienced? Walkley: Yes. We did. We had some Japanese families. And because, as I understood it, the line that divided whether or not the Japanese had to go to internment camps was the Columbia River. So the Japanese in Kennewick were taken to internment camps. The ones in Pasco were not. But the Japanese area in Pasco, their businesses and where most of them lived close to their business, that was off-limits to the military. The first meal that we had when we came to Pasco was at the M and M Café, which was down by the underpass in Pasco. And it was run by the Japanese. First time in my life I’d ever had oyster crackers. But that area was—and I’m not even sure if the military was here at that point—but later on, that area was off-limits to the military. Now, some of these were second generation Japanese, and they were no threat to this country. They were fine, upright people. There were a few blacks in the area, and basically they were in the east Pasco area. They were—my understanding—very discriminated against in Kennewick, but allowed to be in Pasco. We had a black student in my high school class, and he was one of the class officers. His name was Duke Washington. He was a very good football player, and in fact played football for WSU—College at that time. As I understand it, when they were going to play some team in the South, the WSU coach was told, don’t bring that boy with you. But the coach said, we’re bringing him—and they did. And he was a star football player. Now, I—again, I was young and ignorant—I think I was unaware of a lot of things—I don’t know that he was discriminated against. I expect that he was. But I don’t recall a lot of blacks being in our high school. And there should have been, for the number of black people that lived in east Pasco. So I don’t know whether they weren’t welcome in school—I’m not sure what that was really all about, because I was not aware enough of what was going on in the community to know that. That’s probably another difference between when I was a student, and students now. Because I think that students now—probably a lot of it is social media—they know what’s going on in their community. I thought I knew what was going on, but I don’t think I did. So all of this awareness of social things—I think that’s very different than it was when I was in school. And then we didn’t learn things in high school that students are learning now. Because I know I never had any calculus. O’Reagan: All right. Well, that’s all fascinating stuff. Anything else that leaps to mind before we wrap it up? Walkley: Oh, I’ll probably think of oodles of things when I go home. O’Reagan: Well, we’re certainly open to follow up discussions. That oftentimes leads to even better discussions once people have time to think about what else there is to say. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:24:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 249 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Evelyn Walkley Description An account of the resource An interview with Evelyn Walkley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-2-18 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-5: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. Housing Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6c10e7cd5c77c67e2ed1ebcce4a63ef6.jpg 87ee9053e27e2c67bb21a94229a21fe3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdad70d298e5bf3f027f0463a19488be2.mp4 b415b0ea09ed2f30f8b71066b333122f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Douglas O’Reagan: My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Everett A. Weakley on January 13th, 2016. Interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Everett, or Ev—would you prefer Everett, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Just—yeah, Ev or Everett. Either one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. About his experiences working on the Hanford site. Okay, well thanks for being here. So—you were just telling me while we were having some camera issues—I’d love to hear about sort of how you got involved with the Hanford site, what you were working on that brought you here, and then your sort of early years, what you were working on here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, they came up to University of Idaho and recruited people. And I was one of the ones they recruited. So I came down here, and they put me on work at the tritium program extraction process. So I was a process control engineer at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Do you know why they recruited you? Were you working in physics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: They were after engineers, especially chemical engineers at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I see. Did you know anything about nuclear science specifically? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, no. We didn’t know squat. [LAUGHTER] Of course. Because we were up at University of Idaho. But it was a lot better than being drafted and sent to Korea. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: How much were they able to tell you about the job before they hired you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Very little. Very little. They didn’t tell us what was going on. They came down here and they put some people—engineers in this job, some in this job. I was selected for tritium extraction. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Could you tell me about your first experiences on that job? What sort of the first month or two like? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, they put us on shift work. I think it was called XYZ shift. And it was only five days a week, but it was—changed. So they were going 24 hours a day, but only for five days. It was a glass line at that time. Tritium was extracted and then you had to send it—you had to pump it out through palladium windows—that’s the way they got the hydrogen out, and the tritium and the deuterium. And then we had to collect those in glass containers. It was all hooked up to the system. And then we were designing one for a metal one. So I went in on the metal designs also. And most of that work was done in the shops down in—oh, what do they call it—the old Hanford site. They had a lab—or a place down there, and they did most of the work—construction work. And then they assembled it all. It was interesting work, actually. Because they kept me out of the Korean War, also, so I was happy about that. I didn’t want to go over there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Part of what we’re trying to get an idea about is sort of—what was it like working on the Hanford site? Is there anything that sticks out to you about the way things worked? Or the structure, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, since I was a single guy, they put us in the dorms. They ran out of dorms, so they put us—there was two dorms that were down in the women’s dorm area. So they put us in one of those dorms down there. I remember there was a—what the heck street was that? Anyway, those women’s dorms were right close there, too. And then we’d go up and eat at the Mart, which is still here, but it isn’t called the Mart now. And we’d walk through this field of—I think they were prunes or plums or something like that. And you’d go through there and you’d get attacked by the birds. [LAUGHTER] They would actually attack you during the daytime. So it was a lot of things going on. For dorm club, we’d go down to—oh, the Blue Mountains, and we’d go up to Mount Hood, and hunting and fishing was always what I did. It was a good place. Lot of people. It was interesting, because everybody was new, had come in. It was quite the exciting time to see all these people from all over the United States. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Did you live in the dormitories long? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, let’s see. I lived in there until I got married in ’53. Then we got a B house on Van Giesen Street—one end of it. And I wasn’t the oldest tenant, so I could not buy that anyway. I wouldn’t want it anyway. And then they started selling houses; I got a H house, south end of town and had to remodel that. Had to dig out the basement and all that. By that time, I had several children, so I kind of had to make room for all these kids. Took out the chimney. My wife did not like the coal-burning stove down there to heat the place. So we put in electric baseboard heat. Swamp coolers on the windows. Re-put new—took the chimney out. Had to put new roofing on. All that sort of thing. And later on, we moved to where we are on Pike Avenue now. Then we had more kids. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Keep you busy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: That’s right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: What was life like in Richland in the ‘50s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, it was kind of—there was always something to do. Mainly, down along the river in the park. We’d go down there for entertainment in the evenings. There’d be dances. And then I took up square dancing, my wife and I. So that was in different places, but mainly at the end, it was down in the—what do they call it, down there now? At the park. Oh, community house. It’s still going. I think this is their last year. We used to be on what’s now a hole in the ground, on the south end of that building, was where they used to have a structure. That’s where we danced, it was in that. And they had a kitchen in there; everybody’d bring food. It was a nice time. Had a lot of fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: So you said—do you feel it was easy to get integrated into the community, to be a part of the community at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: What do you mean? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Well, I’m just thinking in terms of your—you’ve been describing a very interesting social scene that people can get into. I’m just thinking, there were a lot of new people coming into town. How—you yourself, of course, experienced this—what it was like to be a new resident in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, mainly you were in dorms. So, you were all right out of college. Here you are, a bunch of college kids, here—men, and then college women right next door to them. So there was a lot of dating going on. Then we’d go over to Pasco, to the Elks Club at that time. And on Friday nights, they always had a fish dinner. We’d go over there and dance and eat. That was a good time. That was ballroom dancing, it wasn’t square dancing. That was later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: So returning to your work for a minute, I guess to some degree you’ve done this, but could you sort of describe a typical work day, and did that change over the long course of time that you were working there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, when I went out there, I had to work shift work. XYZ shifts. You’d work daytimes, evenings, and nighttime. I didn’t like that too well. Then when I went to 300 Area, I was all daytime, which I liked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: How much did the work you were doing change as you got these successive promotions, as you got the new jobs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Yeah. I mean, when you were an engineering assistant, was your—I’d assume—if only because it’s decades earlier—how different was your work than when you were principal engineer or senior principal engineer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, the added responsibility, of course. And I spent a lot of time in the old reactor fuel and then I wrote a lot of documents on how to—the canning process. And that’s probably in here—I’m pretty sure it is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I noticed here, it says that you are an expert on fuel manufacturing environmental issues. I wonder what—when did that become a priority? The environmental issues, was that something that was always part of your work, or did that develop over time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Environmental issues—you worried about what was going out the stacks, especially in 313. We had slug recovery—we’d take the aluminum—the ones that were reject—and they would dissolve the aluminum cans off in caustic, and they always had this exhaust going out. If you didn’t watch it, it would suck out quite a bit of moisture with it, and that would have caustic in it. We had trouble with the women walking by—their nylon hose would disintegrate. And they didn’t like that. I don’t blame them. And you could feel it—you could feel it on your face. They had to fix that up, of course. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Were safety issues or the environment ever something you were concerned about working there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah, I was always worrying about—And then at the 306 Building, making fuel elements for the N Reactor, I was involved in that—a lot of things. I had to make trips to the aluminum companies that made aluminum products for us. Bought them back east, and some of them in California. So I did a lot of traveling, going to these different places, trying to get improvements made in aluminum ore, and later on, Zircaloy-2. That was Wah Chang made that down in Oregon—made Zircaloy-2 for us. That was interesting. So you’d take a drive down there and visit their plant. And then you’d go to these other places and visit those plants. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: These were to get components for the fuel manufacturing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Were these trips to get components for the fuel manufacturing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: They were making components for— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I see. How much—let’s go with this. Could you describe the ways in which security and/or secrecy impacted your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, you couldn’t talk about what you were doing, and we knew that. I made a lot of trips—I went to National Lead Company in Ohio at Fernald. That’s the ones that we would get our uranium cores from, for the old reactors. Then I’d go down to Mallinckrodt in Weldon Spring, Missouri, and that’s where they started making the billets that they’d send up to—on Lake Erie. There was a place that’d take the big billets and make smaller billets for the N Reactor. So I was always traveling around. Then at the same time, I was going down to the Savannah River plant and checking on what they were doing, because they had the same people. Like me, engineers that were busy and they’d get together and compare notes, and try to get the lower prices on some things. Especially aluminum components for the old reactors. Nothing much you could do about the Zircaloy: it was pretty well fixed. The only plant I never go to was the one that made the braze rings for the N Reactor fuel. That was back in—and it had beryllium in it. And I never had gone to there. I don’t know—I just plain missed it for some reason. I don’t know why. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Was it easy to communicate with all the engineers and workers at these plants, or did the secrecy ever sort of inhibit that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, no. If you’re buying, say, Zircaloy stuff, you go right down here in Oregon and talk to them. And that’s what we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Same way back east on the aluminum plants. Did a lot of traveling. My wife didn’t like that, I don’t think, but we had to travel a lot. And it was old airlines at that time. [INAUDIBLE] had an airline to go to Spokane. You could catch a plane from there, it takes six hours to get into—now takes just a few hours. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Was it unusual that you were traveling that much? Did other people also travel that much from the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, a lot of people were traveling. It’s hectic now. I won’t get on an airplane anymore, so heck with them. [LAUGHTER] I’m retired; I don’t do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Do you feel the security or secrecy of the place changed much over the decades? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah. When I started here it was really secret. They didn’t want the Russians to know anything about making tritium. But the secret got out, because somebody in Savannah River—or down at Oak Ridge probably told them. So nothing we could do about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: But oh, yeah, they tried to keep it secret. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Ooph! That’s a tough one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: It’s a big question. Any particular times that you were working on a project that was really stumping everybody? Any real challenges there that stick out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, there’s always challenges to make things safer and better, and don’t dump stuff out into the atmosphere, or down the drain out to the ponds. Because at that time, they ponds along the river. And it discharges—a lot of stuff went into that pond. They tried to clean that stuff up, but—oh, yeah. When you have time to go through this, you will find a lot of things in here that I worked on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Is there anything in there that you’re particularly proud of having accomplished? Or that sticks out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, I lasted the whole—until I got laid off. [LAUGHTER] That’s an accomplishment—I didn’t get crapped up with anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Did you like your job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah, I liked it. Oh, sure. It was a challenging job. I wrote a lot of manuals. That’s one of the things I did, a lot of manual writing when I was out there. There are still some of those around on the processes of lead-dip canning process, and co-extrusion process. I did a lot of writing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Have the Tri-Cities changed much in your time living here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: And how? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah, since I came in ’50? Oh, yeah. There’s a lot of changes. They couldn’t even allow the blacks to live in Kennewick. They had to go over in Pasco, for instance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: So we didn’t see too many blacks, actually. Now towards the end, they started hiring some people in that were blacks. I had no problem with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Yeah, we’re trying to get a sense for how the community has changed over time. I know that’s a vague question. That’s certainly an interesting point about the demographics of it. Anything else about sort of the social life, the number of things going, anything else like that that sticks out to you on how the community’s changed over the decades? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, I always had been hunting and fishing. So when I came here, I took up hunting and fishing again. Some of the people that I—I belong to the Rod and Gun Club—joined that many years ago, and I still belong, even though I got rid of my guns last year. I don’t go out and dig goose pits in the middle of the winter anymore. That’s too cold. I didn’t like to eat geese, anyway. [LAUGHTER] But I had a lot of good trips hunting down the Blues and up north of Spokane, up in that area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: One of the things—well, okay. Let me go to this one next. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Hmm. That’s an odd one. Well, for one thing, we couldn’t announce what we were doing anywhere. If you could, you made sure you didn’t. If they said, hey, you’re from Hanford. But it didn’t bother me on traveling too much. Because I’d usually go on to aluminum vendors or Zircaloy-2 vendors. Or I’d go to Savannah River plant, which has got the same restrictions as we have. And it was a free exchange then when you went there or you went to National Lead at Fernald. It was free exchange with the people there. So that was just like being at work. So I had no really problem with it. I didn’t really like traveling that much. But there was nothing I could do about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: You were mentioning your collaboration people at Savannah River. Can you tell me more about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: You were mentioning your training people at Savannah River, is that right? Or just trained people who eventually were at Savannah River? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: No, they were—I met one of them. But they sent people up in tritium extraction. Because they built that plant for tritium. The guy that was running the tritium extraction plant was one of them that I trained. And the last trip I made down there, I met him and went into the tritium extraction plant with him and talked to him. He gave me a tour of what it was like. It was a lot different than what we had out here, of course. Then they shipped their stuff again to Oak Ridge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Okay. So, I’m also interested in how people commemorate their community, how people celebrate the history, or try to remember the history. I understand that you’ve been involved in some of the historical groups around here. Can you tell me something about that? Why you thought that was important, why you got involved with those groups? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Are you talking about the Richland Rod and Gun Club, for instance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Well, them and also the B Reactor Museum Association and so on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well the B Reactor Association, I was one of the earlier ones, before they got the Indians out there. It was interesting, because I was on the ground floor with them. In fact, I was in a meeting this week with them. I still belong to them. Just like the Rod and Gun Club, I still belong to them, even though I don’t—got rid of all my guns because I don’t go out and dig goose pits in the wintertime anymore. So it was interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I always find that there’s an awful lot of things that I don’t know that I should be asking. What could you—what would seem important or interesting that you might want to talk about, or think might be worth discussing that I might have not thought to ask? Anything that comes to mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Hmm. Not right off the top of my head, it isn’t. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Sure, that’s fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Yeah. We’re just trying, as I said—we’re most interested in getting a feel for life in the Tri-Cities throughout the Cold War, up to the near present. And just how things have changed over time. What it was like to be a worker on the Hanford plants, how work on the Hanford plant changed over time, what it was like living in the community and getting to know people. So really, a broad set of things, but there’s always questions I don’t think to ask. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Okay. Well, you might have some ideas when you go through this later on. They gave me this, had my payroll number on it and all that. My service dates, 6/19/50 is when I came here. And payroll number 51500 was pretty easy to remember, thank goodness. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: As you went through this, did anything— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: As you started reading through this again, did any memories leap to mind? Did anything about it sort of jog any fond memories or any surprises? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, we always had surprises. We never knew what was going to happen. Item—let’s see, what is that? Item four. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: I would ship pyrophoric uranium Zircaloy chips and fines back to National Lead. And we had surprises there, because they were supposed to use metal pallets. Somebody brought in wooden ones. And they put all these things that we had full of concrete and chips and fines in it, and they had to take them over across the street into a building. And when they did that, they heated it up and it broke one of the containers, and it caught fire on the shipping containers. They weren’t supposed to use shipping containers. That was a hell of a mess to clean up. Because we had a fire, had to clean all that up then. But we actually shipped the stuff back there and they recovered the uranium and reused it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Well, I think that’s the written questions I have here. There are certainly a lot more interesting stuff here. Again, if anything comes to mind you would like to speak about, we would love to hear a bit more. Also, it mentions here that your historical knowledge of site activities, particularly in 300 Area, has been extremely valuable in the preparation of the RCRA and CERCLA documents and planning. Could you tell me anything about that initiative? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Whereabouts are you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: It’s number five, sub-point A. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, okay. I did a lot of document writing and preparations of these RCRA and CERCLAs documents and planning. And I worked with—what’s her name? Michelle Gerber? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: I worked a lot of work with her, as she was a kind of historian. You’ve probably met her, of course. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I know the name, but I haven’t actually met her, I don’t think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: You haven’t met her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I don’t think so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Amazing. I’m surprised you haven’t met her yet. Anyway. She needed a lot of work. I would find things in 300 Area when we were cleaning out for the old reactors, getting 313 cleaned out. We would find movies. I’d ship that out to her, and then she made a CD out of it, I think. It showed the canning process, which had never been done before. It was— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Do you think the history of your job is going to be well-preserved? Do you think the records are still there that can reflect on your times, your work? That is again, sort of an open-ended question here. I’m just trying to think through how people will remember this time in history, and sort of the work that you were involved in. You’re mentioning you found this film and were able to get it out there. But probably some materials didn’t make it out, for security reasons or whatever else, or just weren’t preserved. Do you feel that people have an accurate memory of the time as you look through? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, most of them, I think, do. I always rode a bicycle around, between the buildings out in 300 Area. I would collect lead parts that I’d see laying around and get rid of them—or pick up anything else. So that I would ride those into the building. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: I saw—I was out at the DoE’s artifact collection—historical artifact collection. They have some bicycles out there that I guess were what you were describing, people traveling around the site. Was that common? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: What do you mean? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: You were using bicycles to get around the site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Well, it was in our area. Oh, I used it all the time. And it had a basket in the back wheels. I’d put something in there—I would collect lead brick or something like that, and put it where the lead’s supposed to be and kind of clean things up. Well, it was a pretty good-sized area, 300 Area, so if you had to go down to the south end for some reason, you wanted to get there and get back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Right. Okay. So as I said, I think these are the questions that we had prepared, sort of the general ones here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: You might have some questions when you—well, you can use anything you want out of this write-up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: Yeah, I think this will be a great help. This has been very interesting from my perspective here. We certainly thank you for your time. Yeah, I think that’s at least our first set of questions. But maybe if anything occurs to us, or to you, maybe we could send follow-up questions? Would that be okay, if any questions— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, yeah, you can always get ahold of me if I’m around. I don’t go travel too far since I’m 88. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan: All right. Well, thanks very much. We appreciate your time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: Oh, she’s still back there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> O’Reagan. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX195563363"> Weakley: [LAUGHTER] </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Everett Weakley Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 240 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area N reactor 306 Building B reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-? Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Gerber, Michelle Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Everett A Weakley Description An account of the resource An interview with Everett A Weakley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/13/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-08: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area 306 Building B Reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fedf7236819f3117076a04483382863fc.JPG 801d3189701089821afade8c44ed0a3a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F46e26fcabd0ae0e47f6875a5987ed284.mp4 838f33e480e051227c99777ef102fc38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Everett Weakley Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Everett Weakley: And there I worked in the lead process for years. And then I moved over later— [VIDEO CUTS] Douglas O’Reagan: My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Everett A. Weakley on January 13th, 2016. Interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Everett, or Ev—would you prefer Everett, or--? Weakley: Just—yeah, Ev or Everett. Either one. Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. About his experiences working on the Hanford site. Okay, well thanks for being here. So—you were just telling me while we were having some camera issues—I’d love to hear about sort of how you got involved with the Hanford site, what you were working on that brought you here, and then your sort of early years, what you were working on here. Weakley: Well, they came up to University of Idaho and recruited people. And I was one of the ones they recruited. So I came down here, and they put me on work at the tritium program extraction process. So I was a process control engineer at that time. O’Reagan: Do you know why they recruited you? Were you working in physics? Weakley: They were after engineers, especially chemical engineers at that time. O’Reagan: I see. Did you know anything about nuclear science specifically? Weakley: Oh, no. We didn’t know squat. [LAUGHTER] Of course. Because we were up at University of Idaho. But it was a lot better than being drafted and sent to Korea. O’Reagan: How much were they able to tell you about the job before they hired you? Weakley: Very little. Very little. They didn’t tell us what was going on. They came down here and they put some people—engineers in this job, some in this job. I was selected for tritium extraction. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Could you tell me about your first experiences on that job? What sort of the first month or two like? Do you remember? Weakley: Well, they put us on shift work. I think it was called XYZ shift. And it was only five days a week, but it was—changed. So they were going 24 hours a day, but only for five days. It was a glass line at that time. Tritium was extracted and then you had to send it—you had to pump it out through palladium windows—that’s the way they got the hydrogen out, and the tritium and the deuterium. And then we had to collect those in glass containers. It was all hooked up to the system. And then we were designing one for a metal one. So I went in on the metal designs also. And most of that work was done in the shops down in—oh, what do they call it—the old Hanford site. They had a lab—or a place down there, and they did most of the work—construction work. And then they assembled it all. It was interesting work, actually. Because they kept me out of the Korean War, also, so I was happy about that. I didn’t want to go over there. O’Reagan: Part of what we’re trying to get an idea about is sort of—what was it like working on the Hanford site? Is there anything that sticks out to you about the way things worked? Or the structure, or anything like that? Weakley: Well, since I was a single guy, they put us in the dorms. They ran out of dorms, so they put us—there was two dorms that were down in the women’s dorm area. So they put us in one of those dorms down there. I remember there was a—what the heck street was that? Anyway, those women’s dorms were right close there, too. And then we’d go up and eat at the Mart, which is still here, but it isn’t called the Mart now. And we’d walk through this field of—I think they were prunes or plums or something like that. And you’d go through there and you’d get attacked by the birds. [LAUGHTER] They would actually attack you during the daytime. So it was a lot of things going on. For dorm club, we’d go down to—oh, the Blue Mountains, and we’d go up to Mount Hood, and hunting and fishing was always what I did. It was a good place. Lot of people. It was interesting, because everybody was new, had come in. It was quite the exciting time to see all these people from all over the United States. O’Reagan: Did you live in the dormitories long? Weakley: Oh, let’s see. I lived in there until I got married in ’53. Then we got a B house on Van Giesen Street—one end of it. And I wasn’t the oldest tenant, so I could not buy that anyway. I wouldn’t want it anyway. And then they started selling houses; I got a H house, south end of town and had to remodel that. Had to dig out the basement and all that. By that time, I had several children, so I kind of had to make room for all these kids. Took out the chimney. My wife did not like the coal-burning stove down there to heat the place. So we put in electric baseboard heat. Swamp coolers on the windows. Re-put new—took the chimney out. Had to put new roofing on. All that sort of thing. And later on, we moved to where we are on Pike Avenue now. Then we had more kids. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Keep you busy. Weakley: That’s right. O’Reagan: What was life like in Richland in the ‘50s? Weakley: Well, it was kind of—there was always something to do. Mainly, down along the river in the park. We’d go down there for entertainment in the evenings. There’d be dances. And then I took up square dancing, my wife and I. So that was in different places, but mainly at the end, it was down in the—what do they call it, down there now? At the park. Oh, community house. It’s still going. I think this is their last year. We used to be on what’s now a hole in the ground, on the south end of that building, was where they used to have a structure. That’s where we danced, it was in that. And they had a kitchen in there; everybody’d bring food. It was a nice time. Had a lot of fun. O’Reagan: So you said—do you feel it was easy to get integrated into the community, to be a part of the community at that time? Weakley: What do you mean? O’Reagan: Well, I’m just thinking in terms of your—you’ve been describing a very interesting social scene that people can get into. I’m just thinking, there were a lot of new people coming into town. How—you yourself, of course, experienced this—what it was like to be a new resident in Richland. Weakley: Well, mainly you were in dorms. So, you were all right out of college. Here you are, a bunch of college kids, here—men, and then college women right next door to them. So there was a lot of dating going on. Then we’d go over to Pasco, to the Elks Club at that time. And on Friday nights, they always had a fish dinner. We’d go over there and dance and eat. That was a good time. That was ballroom dancing, it wasn’t square dancing. That was later. O’Reagan: So returning to your work for a minute, I guess to some degree you’ve done this, but could you sort of describe a typical work day, and did that change over the long course of time that you were working there? Weakley: Well, when I went out there, I had to work shift work. XYZ shifts. You’d work daytimes, evenings, and nighttime. I didn’t like that too well. Then when I went to 300 Area, I was all daytime, which I liked. O’Reagan: How much did the work you were doing change as you got these successive promotions, as you got the new jobs? Weakley: Here? O’Reagan: Yeah. I mean, when you were an engineering assistant, was your—I’d assume—if only because it’s decades earlier—how different was your work than when you were principal engineer or senior principal engineer? Weakley: Well, the added responsibility, of course. And I spent a lot of time in the old reactor fuel and then I wrote a lot of documents on how to—the canning process. And that’s probably in here—I’m pretty sure it is. O’Reagan: I noticed here, it says that you are an expert on fuel manufacturing environmental issues. I wonder what—when did that become a priority? The environmental issues, was that something that was always part of your work, or did that develop over time? Weakley: Environmental issues—you worried about what was going out the stacks, especially in 313. We had slug recovery—we’d take the aluminum—the ones that were reject—and they would dissolve the aluminum cans off in caustic, and they always had this exhaust going out. If you didn’t watch it, it would suck out quite a bit of moisture with it, and that would have caustic in it. We had trouble with the women walking by—their nylon hose would disintegrate. And they didn’t like that. I don’t blame them. And you could feel it—you could feel it on your face. They had to fix that up, of course. O’Reagan: Were safety issues or the environment ever something you were concerned about working there? Weakley: Oh, yeah, I was always worrying about—And then at the 306 Building, making fuel elements for the N Reactor, I was involved in that—a lot of things. I had to make trips to the aluminum companies that made aluminum products for us. Bought them back east, and some of them in California. So I did a lot of traveling, going to these different places, trying to get improvements made in aluminum ore, and later on, Zircaloy-2. That was Wah Chang made that down in Oregon—made Zircaloy-2 for us. That was interesting. So you’d take a drive down there and visit their plant. And then you’d go to these other places and visit those plants. O’Reagan: These were to get components for the fuel manufacturing? Weakley: What’s that? O’Reagan: Were these trips to get components for the fuel manufacturing? Weakley: They were making components for— O’Reagan: I see. How much—let’s go with this. Could you describe the ways in which security and/or secrecy impacted your work? Weakley: Well, you couldn’t talk about what you were doing, and we knew that. I made a lot of trips—I went to National Lead Company in Ohio at Fernald. That’s the ones that we would get our uranium cores from, for the old reactors. Then I’d go down to Mallinckrodt in Weldon Spring, Missouri, and that’s where they started making the billets that they’d send up to—on Lake Erie. There was a place that’d take the big billets and make smaller billets for the N Reactor. So I was always traveling around. Then at the same time, I was going down to the Savannah River plant and checking on what they were doing, because they had the same people. Like me, engineers that were busy and they’d get together and compare notes, and try to get the lower prices on some things. Especially aluminum components for the old reactors. Nothing much you could do about the Zircaloy: it was pretty well fixed. The only plant I never go to was the one that made the braze rings for the N Reactor fuel. That was back in—and it had beryllium in it. And I never had gone to there. I don’t know—I just plain missed it for some reason. I don’t know why. O’Reagan: Was it easy to communicate with all the engineers and workers at these plants, or did the secrecy ever sort of inhibit that? Weakley: Oh, no. If you’re buying, say, Zircaloy stuff, you go right down here in Oregon and talk to them. And that’s what we did. O’Reagan: Okay. Weakley: Same way back east on the aluminum plants. Did a lot of traveling. My wife didn’t like that, I don’t think, but we had to travel a lot. And it was old airlines at that time. [INAUDIBLE] had an airline to go to Spokane. You could catch a plane from there, it takes six hours to get into—now takes just a few hours. O’Reagan: Was it unusual that you were traveling that much? Did other people also travel that much from the Hanford site? Weakley: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, a lot of people were traveling. It’s hectic now. I won’t get on an airplane anymore, so heck with them. [LAUGHTER] I’m retired; I don’t do that. O’Reagan: Do you feel the security or secrecy of the place changed much over the decades? Weakley: Oh, yeah. When I started here it was really secret. They didn’t want the Russians to know anything about making tritium. But the secret got out, because somebody in Savannah River—or down at Oak Ridge probably told them. So nothing we could do about it. O’Reagan: Right. Weakley: But oh, yeah, they tried to keep it secret. O’Reagan: What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Weakley: Ooph! That’s a tough one. O’Reagan: It’s a big question. Any particular times that you were working on a project that was really stumping everybody? Any real challenges there that stick out? Weakley: Well, there’s always challenges to make things safer and better, and don’t dump stuff out into the atmosphere, or down the drain out to the ponds. Because at that time, they ponds along the river. And it discharges—a lot of stuff went into that pond. They tried to clean that stuff up, but—oh, yeah. When you have time to go through this, you will find a lot of things in here that I worked on. O’Reagan: Is there anything in there that you’re particularly proud of having accomplished? Or that sticks out? Weakley: Well, I lasted the whole—until I got laid off. [LAUGHTER] That’s an accomplishment—I didn’t get crapped up with anything. O’Reagan: Did you like your job? Weakley: Oh, yeah, I liked it. Oh, sure. It was a challenging job. I wrote a lot of manuals. That’s one of the things I did, a lot of manual writing when I was out there. There are still some of those around on the processes of lead-dip canning process, and co-extrusion process. I did a lot of writing. O’Reagan: Have the Tri-Cities changed much in your time living here? Weakley: Oh, yeah. O’Reagan: And how? Weakley: Oh, yeah, since I came in ’50? Oh, yeah. There’s a lot of changes. They couldn’t even allow the blacks to live in Kennewick. They had to go over in Pasco, for instance. O’Reagan: Right. Weakley: So we didn’t see too many blacks, actually. Now towards the end, they started hiring some people in that were blacks. I had no problem with them. O’Reagan: Yeah, we’re trying to get a sense for how the community has changed over time. I know that’s a vague question. That’s certainly an interesting point about the demographics of it. Anything else about sort of the social life, the number of things going, anything else like that that sticks out to you on how the community’s changed over the decades? Weakley: Well, I always had been hunting and fishing. So when I came here, I took up hunting and fishing again. Some of the people that I—I belong to the Rod and Gun Club—joined that many years ago, and I still belong, even though I got rid of my guns last year. I don’t go out and dig goose pits in the middle of the winter anymore. That’s too cold. I didn’t like to eat geese, anyway. [LAUGHTER] But I had a lot of good trips hunting down the Blues and up north of Spokane, up in that area. O’Reagan: One of the things—well, okay. Let me go to this one next. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Weakley: Hmm. That’s an odd one. Well, for one thing, we couldn’t announce what we were doing anywhere. If you could, you made sure you didn’t. If they said, hey, you’re from Hanford. But it didn’t bother me on traveling too much. Because I’d usually go on to aluminum vendors or Zircaloy-2 vendors. Or I’d go to Savannah River plant, which has got the same restrictions as we have. And it was a free exchange then when you went there or you went to National Lead at Fernald. It was free exchange with the people there. So that was just like being at work. So I had no really problem with it. I didn’t really like traveling that much. But there was nothing I could do about it. O’Reagan: You were mentioning your collaboration people at Savannah River. Can you tell me more about that? Weakley: What’s that? O’Reagan: You were mentioning your training people at Savannah River, is that right? Or just trained people who eventually were at Savannah River? Weakley: No, they were—I met one of them. But they sent people up in tritium extraction. Because they built that plant for tritium. The guy that was running the tritium extraction plant was one of them that I trained. And the last trip I made down there, I met him and went into the tritium extraction plant with him and talked to him. He gave me a tour of what it was like. It was a lot different than what we had out here, of course. Then they shipped their stuff again to Oak Ridge. O’Reagan: Okay. So, I’m also interested in how people commemorate their community, how people celebrate the history, or try to remember the history. I understand that you’ve been involved in some of the historical groups around here. Can you tell me something about that? Why you thought that was important, why you got involved with those groups? Weakley: Are you talking about the Richland Rod and Gun Club, for instance? O’Reagan: Well, them and also the B Reactor Museum Association and so on. Weakley: Well the B Reactor Association, I was one of the earlier ones, before they got the Indians out there. It was interesting, because I was on the ground floor with them. In fact, I was in a meeting this week with them. I still belong to them. Just like the Rod and Gun Club, I still belong to them, even though I don’t—got rid of all my guns because I don’t go out and dig goose pits in the wintertime anymore. So it was interesting. O’Reagan: I always find that there’s an awful lot of things that I don’t know that I should be asking. What could you—what would seem important or interesting that you might want to talk about, or think might be worth discussing that I might have not thought to ask? Anything that comes to mind? Weakley: Hmm. Not right off the top of my head, it isn’t. O’Reagan: Sure, that’s fine. Weakley: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Yeah. We’re just trying, as I said—we’re most interested in getting a feel for life in the Tri-Cities throughout the Cold War, up to the near present. And just how things have changed over time. What it was like to be a worker on the Hanford plants, how work on the Hanford plant changed over time, what it was like living in the community and getting to know people. So really, a broad set of things, but there’s always questions I don’t think to ask. Weakley: Okay. Well, you might have some ideas when you go through this later on. They gave me this, had my payroll number on it and all that. My service dates, 6/19/50 is when I came here. And payroll number 51500 was pretty easy to remember, thank goodness. O’Reagan: As you went through this, did anything— Weakley: Huh? O’Reagan: As you started reading through this again, did any memories leap to mind? Did anything about it sort of jog any fond memories or any surprises? Weakley: Well, we always had surprises. We never knew what was going to happen. Item—let’s see, what is that? Item four. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Weakley: I would ship pyrophoric uranium Zircaloy chips and fines back to National Lead. And we had surprises there, because they were supposed to use metal pallets. Somebody brought in wooden ones. And they put all these things that we had full of concrete and chips and fines in it, and they had to take them over across the street into a building. And when they did that, they heated it up and it broke one of the containers, and it caught fire on the shipping containers. They weren’t supposed to use shipping containers. That was a hell of a mess to clean up. Because we had a fire, had to clean all that up then. But we actually shipped the stuff back there and they recovered the uranium and reused it. O’Reagan: Well, I think that’s the written questions I have here. There are certainly a lot more interesting stuff here. Again, if anything comes to mind you would like to speak about, we would love to hear a bit more. Also, it mentions here that your historical knowledge of site activities, particularly in 300 Area, has been extremely valuable in the preparation of the RCRA and CERCLA documents and planning. Could you tell me anything about that initiative? Weakley: Whereabouts are you? O’Reagan: It’s number five, sub-point A. Weakley: Oh, okay. I did a lot of document writing and preparations of these RCRA and CERCLAs documents and planning. And I worked with—what’s her name? Michelle Gerber? O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Weakley: I worked a lot of work with her, as she was a kind of historian. You’ve probably met her, of course. O’Reagan: I know the name, but I haven’t actually met her, I don’t think. Weakley: You haven’t met her? O’Reagan: I don’t think so. Weakley: Amazing. I’m surprised you haven’t met her yet. Anyway. She needed a lot of work. I would find things in 300 Area when we were cleaning out for the old reactors, getting 313 cleaned out. We would find movies. I’d ship that out to her, and then she made a CD out of it, I think. It showed the canning process, which had never been done before. It was— O’Reagan: Do you think the history of your job is going to be well-preserved? Do you think the records are still there that can reflect on your times, your work? That is again, sort of an open-ended question here. I’m just trying to think through how people will remember this time in history, and sort of the work that you were involved in. You’re mentioning you found this film and were able to get it out there. But probably some materials didn’t make it out, for security reasons or whatever else, or just weren’t preserved. Do you feel that people have an accurate memory of the time as you look through? Weakley: Well, most of them, I think, do. I always rode a bicycle around, between the buildings out in 300 Area. I would collect lead parts that I’d see laying around and get rid of them—or pick up anything else. So that I would ride those into the building. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: I saw—I was out at the DoE’s artifact collection—historical artifact collection. They have some bicycles out there that I guess were what you were describing, people traveling around the site. Was that common? Weakley: What do you mean? O’Reagan: You were using bicycles to get around the site? Weakley: Well, it was in our area. Oh, I used it all the time. And it had a basket in the back wheels. I’d put something in there—I would collect lead brick or something like that, and put it where the lead’s supposed to be and kind of clean things up. Well, it was a pretty good-sized area, 300 Area, so if you had to go down to the south end for some reason, you wanted to get there and get back. O’Reagan: Right. Okay. So as I said, I think these are the questions that we had prepared, sort of the general ones here. Weakley: You might have some questions when you—well, you can use anything you want out of this write-up. O’Reagan: Yeah, I think this will be a great help. This has been very interesting from my perspective here. We certainly thank you for your time. Yeah, I think that’s at least our first set of questions. But maybe if anything occurs to us, or to you, maybe we could send follow-up questions? Would that be okay, if any questions— Weakley: Oh, yeah, you can always get ahold of me if I’m around. I don’t go travel too far since I’m 88. O’Reagan: All right. Well, thanks very much. We appreciate your time. Weakley: Oh, she’s still back there. O’Reagan. Yeah. Weakley: [LAUGHTER] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:33:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 306 Building B Reactor N Reacor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950- Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Michelle Gerber Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Everett Weakley Description An account of the resource An interview with Everett Weakley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01-13-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area 306 Building B Reactor B Reactor Museum Association Cold War Hanford Kennewick Mountain Mountains N Reactor River Savannah River Street War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0992948e0811e502f33a2bd348c050ec.JPG 5291abbce0561a907b2d7644e150dd77 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6ec2237aa7c6afe662829d90aa1b99c5.mp4 8c4228f038926fb13821ea6d37770f4d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Frank Cobb George Swan Location The location of the interview Home of Frank Cobb Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Frank Cobb and George Swan on August 28, 2018. The interview is being conducted at the house of Frank. I’ll be talking with Frank and George about their experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us, starting with Frank? Frank Cobb: Frank Cobb. F-R-A-N-K. C-O-B-B. Franklin: Great. George? George Swan: George Swan. G-E-O-R-G-E. S-W-A-N. Franklin: Great. When did you two start working together? Swan: Hmm. Was it in the late ‘70s? Cobb: No. Swan: Mid-‘70s? Cobb: I met you in 1980. Swan: Okay. Yeah, we started out where I had projects at the dams on the Columbia River with National Marine Fisheries working with the traveling screens that we put down in the turbine intakes. Frank came on and became one of my maintenance men, and we pretty much formed a team from there on. I was kind of like the junior lieutenant and he was a sergeant major under me. You know, we’re both old marines, so we tend to look at it in that respect. But basically, I was a biologist project leader, and Frank was head maintenance man, doing a lot of the fabrication and making stuff happen in the field so we could get the research projects done. Franklin: What types of research projects did you two do together? Swan: We did the traveling screen stuff at different dams. Putting the traveling screens down and they’re elevated to divert juvenile salmon and steelhead that are drawn in to the turbine intakes with the flow of the river, and then divert it up into gate wells. And then they find a bypass orifice that would draw them through into a bypass system. Takes them down and around the dam into a collection facility. And then they were collected and sorted and some of them were tagged for studies and so forth, and they were taken downstream below all the hydroelectric dams, so they didn’t have to go through any more of them, and release down there. And there were juvenile salmon and juvenile steelhead, primarily. Eventually—did you work with me on the radio, tracking stuff later on? Cobb: No. The first time he and I really worked together was after I got started diving, and we did a spawning survey in 1986. Swan: I was a fisheries research biologist, but also I had an extra duty as diving supervisor in the NOAA diving program for the National Marine Fisheries in the Inland Northwest area. Frank was interested, so I got him into it with me. I had learned to dive recreationally when I was in the Marine Corps many years before. I was not a military diver, but when I got out, when I was going to college, I fed myself off Puget Sound, collecting seafood and spearfishing and collected samples for the different researchers at University of Washington and the Seattle Marine Aquarium. Eventually got appointed as the diving supervisor for NMFS for different things we did underwater, projects. And a lot of it ended up being at the dams in the gate wells and around some of the structures. And then eventually when we got into this checking water withdrawals, pump intakes, all the way from little, small things, somebody plopped the line in to draw water out to water their lawn, up to big industrial and agriculture things. We had a project that ran for about three years, locating all these, finding out who owned and operated them, and inspecting them. The end-goal was to find out if there were fish protective facilities on those intakes that were protecting the juvenile fish that were migrating downstream, again, salmon and steelhead and other resident fishes. Let’s see. Guess that was about it. Then our director of coastal zone and estuary studies in Seattle, Wes Ebel, also a former marine—he was a diver, but he was getting up in years and also his responsibilities didn’t let him get in the field much anymore, but he was a diver in our program up until a certain point. One day out of the blue, he came to me, called me up, and said, get some people asking if we could do a deep water spawning survey in the Hanford Reach. Could you guys do it? And I said, hell, yes, we could do it. And he said, okay. See what you can put together. And I went out in the shop and talked to Frank about it, and I said, we can do this, can’t we? [LAUGHTER] And Frank said, we can do anything. So that’s how it took off. We started—I started researching the literature, finding out about other outfits that used underwater devices to run surveys or collections or different things. And we found that some guys used a sled, like we came up with, to evaluate the turtle excluder on some of the shrimp fisheries in the gulf. They were, you know, netting shrimp, but they were also getting a lot of sea turtles. And they wanted to figure out a way to keep the turtles from getting caught. So they had designed what they called a turtle excluder that would divert them out of there. And in order to—I mean, this is kind of a simplified version; they did a lot of other things, too, but—they used, when the shrimp boat was towing this thing, then it would be towed on this sled and they could actually underwater, you could kind of fly it around, and they’d film what was going on, and that’s how they were able to—instead of just putting it down, undetermined if it would catch any or not, they could start to look at what works best to try to divert the turtles from getting caught and that sort of thing. Cobb: Wasn’t the first one made out of a Stokes litter? A Navy Stokes litter? Swan: Yeah, they actually used Navy Stokes litters that they had onboard ship in World War II. You know, that were-- Cobb: With the wings on it. Franklin: You mean to carry, like a litter, to carry a body? Swan: Yeah, you’d lay a guy in it, and it was a tubing frame and then it had a wire basket that you’d lay the wounded person in. Well, they took two of those and built them into a framework. And then they came up with a diving plane so they could go up or down. So we took that and went a little further with the sled. Frank came up with the one that you’ll see after a while, here. When it was first built, the Plexiglas was clear, of course, and you could see out through it. Now it’s kind of yellowed from sunlight and all that, but it was like a windshield underwater. It would divert the flow over us. Otherwise, we had a tremendous—you had the current of the river coming. We didn’t tow into it when we did our survey; we went across current. So we were catching whatever the river flow was at that point, and having that—we started out with some small things, and then Frank kept coming up with some little bigger and better. You couldn’t go too much. If you get too carried away, it’d be like a bass plug wobbling down there, from the resistance on it. But he got it worked out pretty good, so it put the flow above and below and around the divers. Of course, we’re on scuba, and then we had a problem with, as we’d exhale bubbles, they’d get drawn in front of us, and it was full of bubbles for a while and you couldn’t see. So he came up with some slots that helped let some flow go through there and trained those bubbles and pulled them away from us. So then we had a clear line of vision. That’s kind of in a nutshell. I don’t know if I’ve missed anything or not. Those are the basic things that we worked together on and gradually ended up with a— Cobb: Yeah, as far as that sled, kind of the evolution? Like many things have been throughout history, somebody starts out with a design, somebody else modifies it for their purposes, and that’s kind of the evolution of it. Swan: Yeah, the actual original was just a diving plane, a board, that a diver with scuba gear on would hang on to. And he would just manoeuver that board and it could make himself go up and down being towed by a boat. Cobb: An underwater airplane. Swan: Yeah. And it just kind of grew. Different guys would get different ideas, you know, and expand on it. And that’s how we ended up with this. Cobb: You’ve heard that term, there’s no I in team? Franklin: Yeah. Cobb: That’s what all this was about. There’s no I; it’s we. Swan: Yeah. Franklin: Frank, how did you get started doing fabrication? Cobb: Well, I had a shop teacher in high school that taught me to weld. And then I went four years in the Marine Corps. And then I’ve always done fabrication work, whatever I could figure out to do. And then when I was in the same place he worked, I did a lot of fabrication down there. I never learned anything in school. I was hands-on. Swan: Frank actually fabricated a lot of the big test frames that we hung mats on and things, when we tested the traveling screens or did modifications to the screens. I mean, it was—all the way from little, small items to gigantic things that had to be handled with cranes to move it around and install it. Franklin: Wow. So, what was this 1986 spawning survey, deep water spawning survey, in the Hanford Reach, what was the goal of the project? What were you tasked with finding? Swan: Well, we were approached by the Corps of Engineers that had talked to the director I was mentioning, and knew that we had a dive team, and asked if we could do anything to determine if salmon were actually spawning deeper than they could see from the air. Because up until then, the way they did their counts of salmon spawning was they would fly in an airplane and look down. And when the salmon sweeps the sediment clear where they’re establishing a redd, or stirring up the gravel to lay their eggs and fertilize them—it’s called a redd, R-E-D-D. That’s the way they were determining the amount of spawning that was going on all up through the Hanford Reach. They would fly it once a week for a couple months, or it was usually, they’d start in September and, well, maybe even longer than that. They’d go, I’m pretty sure through November and maybe into December. But the Corps of Engineers had been approached by an organization in Wenatchee area that was trying to promote marketing their produce, like apples and fruit. And see if they could get barge traffic coming all the way up the Columbia to Wenatchee. There are no locks in those dams, so they couldn’t lock the barges through. But they had come up with the idea of a lift, like they have in Europe, I guess. In some of the dams where they would pull the barge in with a tug below the dam, and this cradle would come out, start raising it, and that barge would be disconnected from the tug, and they would lift the barge up to the top of the dam, over it, down into the fore bay. They’d have another tug there that would couple up and take it to the next one. The concern was those tugs and barges going up through the Hanford Reach in those spawning grounds, what effect was that going to have on the salmon spawning? So that’s where they came up with the request to see if we could put together a project to try to measure the spawning and that’s how we got into that. And when we began to use the sled, you know, you could go across the shallow water, which you could see from the air and you already knew they were spawning there. But then we’d start to go deeper, as we went across the river. And we in fact found, in some locations, based on the average main level of the flow in the reservoir, we found that salmon were actually spawning down to 32 feet or so, something like that. Franklin: What was the depth that the plane could view? Swan: The sled? Franklin: No, sorry, what was the depth—you said that before— Swan: Oh, the airplane? Franklin: That the airplane, yeah, how deep could the airplane reliably view to? Swan: I don’t know for sure; it’d depend on water clarity. But I would say on the average, probably ten to twelve, maybe 15 feet would be about max. Franklin: So you were able to go down about double. Swan: Yeah. Franklin: And did you find a lot of salmon spawning in the deep water? Swan: Yup. A lot. Cobb: Yeah, one year the return was like 100,000 of the upriver brights. Swan: Yeah. Franklin: Was that what researchers had expected to find? Or was it a surprise? Swan: I don’t think so, because, as I recall, the guy that was the project engineer for the Corps—[LAUGHTER] He wanted to—we were going to do another study the next year, but what we found out worked against him. And I think it was the Northwest Power Planning Council had approved the study with the Corps of Engineers’ funding. But when they found out how much spawning was going on, to what extent, they put the kibosh on the project right away. They said there’s no way we want barges and tugs running up through those spawning grounds. So, in a way, our success meant our demise. Because we would’ve liked to have done another year of study. But at the same time, they determined that there wasn’t any point in going on with it, because they could see right away it was not a desirable situation to ever try to let get started. Cobb: Between Priest Rapids Dam and just north of Richland is the last free-flowing part of the Columbia River. I think I’ve got that right. Franklin: Yup. Cobb: And that’s part of what people were interested in, not destroying that. Franklin: Right, known as, yeah, that section is, I believe, known as the Hanford Reach. Cobb: Yeah, basically the Hanford Reach, yeah. Franklin: So tell me about how you operated the sled. It’s a two-man sled, right? Cobb: Right. Franklin: And were you the driver as well as the fabricator? Cobb: Yeah, I mean, I usually was the one flying. Flying underwater in a denser medium. Swan: Yeah, we had guys who started to take over and pilot it, but Frank was primary—he was chief pilot, I guess you could say. Franklin: Chief pilot. And so it uses a rudder system. Each hand controls a different rudder, right? Cobb: Well, each wing—it can be individual, so—but at one point we were entertaining ourselves. We were doing barrel rolls. I’d put one wing, can go like this, do barrel rolls, flying upside-down. And, anyway, it was probably illegal to have that much fun making a living. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how would you be seated in the sled? Cobb: You’re laying down. Franklin: Laying down, okay. Swan: In the prone. Franklin: So one person is flying the sled and the other person is--? Swan: The observer. Or he would be—we had a button that if he passed over a redd on this, well, what we should probably—Each of our test sites, or sample sites, were, what, 2,000 feet, from upstream to downstream. We would start at the top, the boat would manoeuver across. We had markers set on the bank, and he would go all the way across. Once they were to the other side, then they would drop back 150 feet, and come back across to the other side. And we’d keep doing that until we finished the whole thing. Now, the boat had this towline with a sled on the end of it that was 150 feet. And attached to that towline, so that when the sled was down, just about above us was a float with a cluster of prisms, the reflector mirrors, that no matter what the position of it was, if a beam, a laser beam was sent from shore out to that cluster, it would reflect back. And they had a computer survey company that worked with us how to computer set up. As we would go across, the observer had this button, also had voice communication, but we kind of had a duplication in case our voice system went out. We had this button you could push, would send a signal to shore or vice versa. If the other failed, hopefully, between the two of them. And as the sled would go across, and the guy that was the observer would see a redd, he would just say, redd, and he’d punch the button. As he did that, there’s an antenna on that float that would trigger a signal to the shore, and this tracking device they had would instantly tch-tch, and it would log in the coordinates of where the redd was. And that’s on the maps I showed you, the little red dots? Franklin: Yup. Swan: That’s how they get logged in. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Swan: And that’s the basic nitty gritty of how we did this thing. Cobb: I think I gave you some stuff on paper that shows the sled and what he just described. Franklin: Yeah. Cobb: In other words, back in the old days, antique. Now there’s GPS, we could’ve done the same thing, but in today’s GPS. Franklin: Yeah, and we’ll digitize those materials and make them available with the interview for the viewer. So, Frank, you used the sled again to do another survey by N Reactor. Or, no, by one of the reactors, right? Cobb: We did. Basically, pretty much every place that George and I did the spawning survey, we’d punch into the bottom of the river, and we would extract groundwater samples and the target was hexavalent chromium. Now, what else was in those samples, I have no idea. I don’t think anybody wants us to know what we were exposed to. Franklin: Where did—who was leading this project to do the groundwater sampling? Cobb: It was a guy by the name of Steve Hope, and he worked for CH2M Hill, who at that time was basically contracted to Bechtel. I think at this point, CH2M Hill is independent of Bechtel. But Steve Hope was the biologist in charge of it. And there, again, it was relative to the salmon. The EPA and the Indians wanted to know. Franklin: How much hexavalent chromium was in the groundwater? Cobb: Right. Franklin: And what year was this? Cobb: Pardon me? Franklin: What year was this? Cobb: I think ’95 and part of ’96. Franklin: And so what did you find? What were the findings of that survey? Cobb: Well, I think I gave you some paperwork on that also. As far as numbers, I don’t—I don’t remember, and I never—that was not part of my job. So I didn’t—but the concentrations were higher than—I shouldn’t say this—higher than Battelle said it would be. Which they also said we couldn’t do it. But we did it anyway. Franklin: They said you couldn’t do the groundwater survey? Cobb: They said we were not capable of doing it. Franklin: Why is that? Cobb: Well, for one thing, they were questioning our qualifications as divers. Steve Hope had been a Navy diver. I was certified with NOAA’s dive program and two others. But they never bothered to find out we were getting ready to embarrass them, because they said they had told DOE, I believe, that it couldn’t be done because of the high flows. Anyway, a guy came to me, wanted to know if we could do it, and I told him the same thing I told George: you can do anything. Shortest route to failure is do not try. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Was the same kind of—were you also the pilot in that? Cobb: Yes. Franklin: That’s right, and was it the same type of work and same areas, in fact, that you had done--? Cobb: Well, basically, most of the same areas that we did the spawning survey was the same place we did the groundwater sampling, the same areas. Not quite as many as we did in the spawning survey, but basically the same geographical locations. Swan: He drove pipes into the substrate to collect the groundwater, right? Cobb: Yeah, we’d drive those in and then we would purge out the actual river water, with syringes. I think you’ve got pictures of those. And then we would take three samples and they would go to, I think, three independent labs for analysis. Franklin: I imagine that must be—I mean, the flow of the river in that area is pretty fast. How did you keep everything steady enough to take these kind of samples? What was that experience like, being in the river in the sled? Cobb: Well, there again, like with the thing in ’95, ’96, we’d anchor the boat, and then we would park on the bottom and keep the wings down real low, just tight to the bottom. And then the guy beside me was the one that would—basically it was a concrete chipping hammer, gear-operated, to punch in. And then had a long enough anchor you could drop back there again and transit so far back. And then you have to pull the anchor and go and then re-anchor and do the same thing. I forget how many hundreds of feet on the anchor we had. Anyway, they said, can you? And we said yeah. Swan: They were able to stay in place long enough that they drove those pipes down deep enough that they could sample the groundwater after sucking all—purging all that river water out of there so they could get valid samples of the groundwater coming in. And that’s basically what had been said that they couldn’t do because there was too much flow; you’ll never be able to do anything. And they were able to accomplish it that way. Franklin: Wow. Cobb: One of the sayings I love, and I told several of them out there, people a whole lot smarter than I am, I told them, do not limit me by your limitations. Just because you cannot do it does not mean I can’t do it. Franklin: Um. Cobb: That’s one of those shut-up-Frank deals? Franklin: No, no, no, no, no. I just—you did it, so there’s nothing else to say about that. The work was done. So did you use the sled in any other surveys? Cobb: Oh. Let’s see. No, actually, anything that amounted to actual projects, no, I don’t believe so. Swan: The original sled, when we were all done with the spawning survey, and eventually they disbanded our diving group, said we’d outlived our usefulness, and they could call Rent-a-Diver if they needed divers—this is our fisheries outfit. So we kind of pfft, dissolved. And I had all this gear and so I passed it onto other diving units that were still active. And a guy who was up in Alaska got the sled. The last I heard, he was going to use it up there for trying to do studies on king crab. I guess king crab, when they spawn at night or something, they have a behavior of coming together—or maybe it’s the juvenile ones, I’m not sure. But they form into a big ball for protection. And then come, I guess, daylight or whatever, or a certain time, they’ll disperse. Anyway, he was doing a study on something about that, and I don’t know anymore than that for details, but— Franklin: So then, is this sled the same one that was used on the surveys? Swan: No. Franklin: No, okay, so what is the provenance of this sled? Cobb: Well, when I—I was 40 years old when I went to work for the fisheries and I was too old to learn to work for the government. So I went back to shoeing horses full-time, and I built the sled strictly on speculation, thinking someday somebody would want me to do another project. Somebody heard about it and Steve Hope came to me, and I’d already basically had that mostly built. And he told me what they wanted us to do. So then I finished it. Franklin: Okay, so that sled was used in the hexavalent chromium survey. Cobb: Correct. Franklin: And is it safe to say, is it pretty much a copy of the sled that was used in the fish--? Swan: An improved copy? Franklin: An improved copy? Cobb: It is basically—well, slightly improved, but mostly just slightly modified. Franklin: And what were the modifications between the two projects? Cobb: Between the two? Well, I made the wings a little bit more surface on them, and then where the divers lay, I made that where you can reach down—basically, it is very little different than the one that George and I used. Franklin: So how—when you were done with the hexavalent chromium, was the sled just not needed? How did it end up back with you? Cobb: Oh, it belonged to me. Franklin: Oh, so you supplied it to the— Swan: He was a private contractor at that point. Cobb: I was a private contractor. In fact, when I told them how much I wanted, they didn’t want to pay it. So they started calling diving companies. All the diving companies says, say what? There is no such thing as that. That does not exist. Nobody knows—there’s still nothing. It does not exist. So, then, they kept coming back to me. I’d be out shoeing horses, and they would keep calling me on the phone, trying to beat me down on the price. And I told them, no. That’s what I want. So that made me a sole source. So then they finally agreed. And I made them put a cancellation clause in it. And of course that was Bechtel, and they said, well, we can’t do that. And I said, well, then I can’t do that, either. Because I knew what they were going to do. As soon as we satisfied the Indians and EPA, they would cancel the rest of the contract. Which they ended up doing. And then they ended up owing me the $46,000. And I had to go to war to even get that. But anyway. I had heard enough about how Bechtel does business. And they figure they’re the only ones in town to make nay money, and us little dumb guys, we’re supposed to work for nothing. Anyway. Franklin: That’s great. So is there anything else you guys would like to say about either survey, or the sled? Cobb: Not me, really. Other than that I had an awful lot of fun doing it. Franklin: It sounds like a lot of fun. Cobb: It was for me. Swan: The only thing I can think of is, that spawning survey we did, I thought we accomplished something highly unique, and so did a lot of other people. The thing that kind of irked me was, my higher-ups just, like, oh, shit, you guys are just having fun, you know, no big deal. But we got more accolades out of other agencies that were amazed by what and how we did it. I even gave a presentation at Scripps and a couple of different research divers’ conferences, and they were blown away by what we had accomplished. We had Dr. Don Chapman that did a whole bunch of work on the Vernita Bar early, salmon spawning stuff. He came and— Cobb: [LAUGHTER] Swan: I think he was a little skeptical about what we were doing. And so he was up in years then, but he was still diving. So we said, well, you want to go for a ride on the sled? Yeah, I would. So, he went with Frank. I’ll let Frank tell you about that. Cobb: Oh, anyway, we were about the highest flow—our flow meters topped out at ten meters per second, and I don’t know what the flow was there, but the sled was just kind of bouncing around. It was kind of like a gusting wind. So he went across with me, and that was one of the wider places. So we got back over and dropped back, and I said, well, Dr. Chapman, you want to take another ride with me? Anyway, I won’t say the words he said. He said, no! Let me off of this thing! And then I did some diving for him later. That’s another subject. He hired me to do some more diving for him, after meeting him in that particular environment, anyway. Swan: Anyway, a nutshell, to finish up that thing, is, I had some people approach me, and they said, how come we haven’t heard more about this? And I said, I don’t know. My higher-ups didn’t seem to be too impressed with it, you know? Well, a guy in Great Britain got ahold of me and wanted me to come over there and give a presentation on it. He was instrumental in a journal over there called Regulated Rivers. So, we published the paper in it. It’s back in mid-, late-‘80s. It’s “Spawning surveys in a regulated river,” or something like that. I don’t remember the title; it’s been 20-something years. Franklin: Sure. Swan: Anyway, it’s in a journal called Regulated Rivers out of Great Britain, and it gives a real good nutshell of that whole spawning survey project. Cobb: But, yeah—oh, go ahead. Swan: To me, that was kind of, okay, somebody finally paid attention and we got some recognition out of it. Which is what I kind of appreciate you guys doing this. Because, hell, we thought everybody’d just forgot about everything we did, you know? At least you guys are going to try to get recorded so that down the line when we’re long gone, somebody’ll say, jeez, those crazy guys did that! Cobb: The only thing, last thing I got to say is, I’m still very happy that they did not go up to the free-flowing part with dredges for barges and it’s still basically the way we left it. Swan: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that is definitely a major accomplishment. Cobb: I’m glad I was instrumental in them not doing that. Swan: I will never forget sitting there in that meeting. We were just there, not to present anything, but just to see what went on. And the guy who was the project leader with the Corps of Engineers who had contracted us to do the diving project—There was a lady on the power planning council there—and I don’t even remember his name, it’s been so long ago. But she listened to the presentation and everything. And then they had a break, and they got together and discussed it and they came back. And she pretty much said, Mister whatever-his-name-was, how is the best way to expedite your demise with this program, or something, in so many words. In other words, she said—no more. We kind of went, phew. And he just went livid. And I don’t know what happened to that guy. Last I heard, he had disappeared. He couldn’t deal with it. But I thought, well, we did our part, and we showed you, you know? And that’s what you asked us for, so. Franklin: Yeah, no, that’s great. I mean, without that, if barges and dredges were up, it wouldn’t be the Hanford Reach anymore, and it might not be a national monument. That’s really one of the great national—ecological treasures of this whole area. Swan: So I guess without really making a big deal out of it, Frank and I can feel like we were instrumental in helping preserve the Hanford Reach. Franklin: Yeah. Cobb: I’m just glad I didn’t get arrested for having too much fun. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right! Well, I told you guys, we do—part of the tours that the national park offers is this pre-Manhattan Project tour where we go to these former sites: Bruggemann warehouse, and the Allard pump house at Coyote Rapids, and the White Bluffs ferry landing. Now they’re very peaceful and you can get a sense of the history there, and if there were barges coming up through there— Swan: Yup. Cobb: Oh, yeah. Franklin: I mean, it would totally change the entire character of the tour. It would just be jarring. Swan: And they would have to dredge those channels and then repeatedly keep them cleared so that would have a hell of an effect all the way up through there. It would also probably affect the flows that would come out of the dams upstream in order to keep enough water for the barges to keep going. So it would’ve affected it tremendously if they’d ever approved it. Franklin: Well, great. Well, Frank, and George, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about these surveys and your guys’ work, having fun in the river, diving around. I’m very—I’m jealous of— Cobb: I’ve run that whole river clear, all the way. I know that river. I know where to stay out of trouble. And everybody used to tell us, you can’t run that river with a prop boat; you’ve got to have a jet boat. Swan: Oh, yeah, that’s something we ought to make a point of. We did that whole thing with an inboard-outboard, and we only dinged one prop, and it was just a goof, you know, loading the boat or something. We did that whole thing and never destroyed one propeller. And they kept telling us, you’ve got to do that with a jet boat. Well, the inboard-outboard seemed to work for our purposes better, so. Franklin: What would be the reason for the jet boat versus the— Swan: Oh, we wouldn’t have a propeller down there to catch the bottom, you know, and you could run in shallow areas. Now, later I did get a jet boat when we were doing our—more of the water withdrawal stuff and that worked out pretty good. But the other problems you run through those milfoil areas and if you don’t zip right through, you’ll suck it full and it’ll pug the intake and you’ve got to go underneath and rake all that crap out. Cobb: And then on top of that, one of the boats—I kept telling them to stay out of those shallow places. So they suck rocks up the propeller. I kept telling them, don’t do that! Twice they did it. Swan: Yeah— Cobb: And I’ve run that whole thing up, prop boat— Swan: Suck the gravel up there, it’ll just chew the propeller up. Cobb: Well, it’ll jam the propeller up, and then if you don’t have an outboard to get you back home— Swan: Yeah, you’d better have an outboard on the set like a trawling motor for fishing. Cobb: I do not want a jet boat. They take at least two or three times as much fuel, and I can go any place I want to go with a prop boat. You just got to know how to read the river. If you don’t know how to read the river, a jet boat will get you in trouble. Franklin: Yeah. Cobb: Anyway, shut up, Frank. Franklin: Nope! No, you’re good. Well, thanks a lot, guys. I think we’ll now switch to getting some shots of the long-awaited sled. [VIDEO CUTS] Cobb: [INAUDIBLE]--and they tried to use it and it scared them to death. And they called me up, wanting me to train them— [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: We’ll get a couple more pictures while it’s all nice and up on these sawhorses. So you still do horse shoeing? Cobb: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Until you’re 80, right? Cobb: No, not me. [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Oh, okay. Cobb: I’m a young guy. Franklin: I mean until you’re 80. Cobb: My brother—[INAUDIBLE] [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: Yeah, I understand that. I agree with that. Cobb: [INAUDIBLE] [VIDEO CUTS] Cobb: [INAUDIBLE] people to take care of them. Franklin: Makes sense. Cobb: We’d do the barrel roll one direction, and then the other way of course, and then I’d do upside-down. And the flow, if it was high enough flow, you didn’t even have a tendency to fall out. Franklin: So the flow was kind of keeping you— Cobb: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Cobb: And then you had— [VIDEO CUTS] Tom Hungate: How it connected, you had a cable, I presume, to the boat? You said that was 150 feet or so? Cobb: [INAUBDILBE] Attached through here, and it was attached to the boat. And the flow, the faster the flow was, that’s what gave you the maneuverability. Franklin: And so then it’s the driver, pilot, on the left here, right? And then the surveyor, researcher, here on the right. Cobb: Correct. [INAUDIBLE] primitive. You want to fly it sideways, you went along like this. If you wanted to do barrel rolls. Side down, and then come back up, like this. Anyway, it’s very maneuverable, if you have enough flow. If the flow is too slow it’s real sluggish. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But I guess that’s where it’s really kind of made for the Hanford Reach, right? Cobb: Right. Franklin: Because the flow there is fast enough for you to have real maneuverability. Cobb: Right. Franklin: Right? Cobb: I always wanted to fly an airplane. [VIDEO CUTS] Cobb: [INAUDIBLE]—as far as the wings. [INAUDIBLE] experimentation. Franklin: To kind of stabilize the back of it? Cobb: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Wow. [VIDEO CUTS] Cobb: Isn’t it nice and [INAUDIBLE[? Franklin: Yeah, it’s really not that—I mean it’s easy enough for two people can— Cobb: Well, when we were deploying it on and off, I had a set of runners, and this wasn’t on it. That was back in the front. And that was sitting down low on the water, and the flow slid up good, and that winch would float it up onto the boat. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:48 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Cobb and George Swan Subject The topic of the resource Columbia River Salmon Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Frank Cobb constructed the "Redd Sled" to survey the salmon redd's of the Columbia River and to perform underwater water sampling near Hanford Reactors. George Swan worked for the Army Corps of Engineers and oversaw the salmon monitoring program where the Redd Sled was first created. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/28/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7eaed54d1dfb821db9e9fab8b3f9a99b.jpg 86240873c34b5a256878aa6d86d288c1 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F77acd93a82ba3343cba870c56358600a.mp4 af8305dd7ab20c0f8c81a6392623c715 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hungate, Frank Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Hungate_Frank Woman one: That’d be kind of cool if that was that. Man one: That’s exciting, because they pop when they do that. Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, it’d wake you up, anyway, right? [LAUGHTER] Man one: Yeah. Bauman: Wow. Man one: Okay, are we about ready? Yeah? OK? Go ahead and roll. Is it rolling? Woman one: Record. Bauman: All right. Well, let's get started then. Let's start by having you say your name, and then spell your last name for us, please. Frank Hungate: Frank Hungate. And H-U-N-G-A-T-E. Bauman: All right, thanks very much. And my name's Bob Bauman. And today is August 14, of 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri Cities. So I'd like to start maybe by asking you to talk about when you came to Hanford, and how that came about. Hungate: My wife and I came in August of 1952. And previously I had been teaching at Reed College, and had been doing some work in radiation, including treating a patient—helping advise and treat a patient who had advanced melanoma. And that was quite exciting because we were at Reed College, and we were consultant to the local physician. And this woman had big nodules the size of a fist around on her body. Bauman: Wow. Hungate: And we gave her a massive dose of I-131. And I prepared it and gave it to her. And the bottom line was I received Christmas cards from her from over ten years. And it was far as I know, was the only case that I ever heard of where that treatment was efficacious. And I guess partly because of that, and also I had become acquainted with the person from at the MAAC who was hiring. And they convinced me to come up here to Hanford. And we came in August, and it was bloody hot. And we were assigned a ranch house out on Cottonwood. And I guess one of the things--I came up a month early. And then my wife sort of cleared the house. And at that time, General Electric was the hiring person, there the governing body. And they paid for the move and everything. And it was sort of interesting, because when they moved, and we opened up the truck, here was a garbage can full of garbage to increase the weight that they could charge to you. [LAUGHTER] We moved, of course, from Portland. So that's sort of the basis on which I come up here. Bauman: Okay. And so what position were you hired into when you first came? Hungate: I was hired in as a research scientist in the biology department. And that department again, I had become acquainted with Harry Kornberg, who is the Director of the Biology Department at that time. Bauman: About how large was the biology department, at that time? Hungate: As I recall, the biology department at that time was about 110 or 120 people. And of course, at that time, it seems strange now, but at that time, we knew basically nothing about what the effects of radiation on living systems were. So our goal was to elaborate and expand our knowledge of the effects of radiation on living systems, and whatever system. Bauman: Right. So how do you go about testing that? Hungate: Well, of course, in addition to understanding the effects, one of the big problems was to monitor and determine the extent and magnitude of the dissipation of radiation from the reactors and from separations. And of course at that time, I-131 was a major factor. So we had extensive monitoring programs to evaluate where the radiation is going, how much was being released. We sampled milk from farms all over the Northwest here to determine the spread extent—potential impact on people. One of our programs was for monitoring rabbits, because they were a stand in for cattle. And we would monthly go out in the same area, collect half a dozen jack rabbits. And they were always plentiful. [LAUGHTER] And then evaluate their thyroid gland for the content of I-131 as well as bones for other isotopes. So monitoring was a major problem. And then of course later, this program was expanded to look much more widely. And we had a very extensive program on people. And Alaska was a big place, because it was observed that the Eskimos up there had periodic very high levels of radiation. I say high—that's relative to nothing—levels of radiation. And it was interesting because we discovered that the content of cesium--that's a law fairly long lived isotope that was prevalent in release. And this of course, was not from Hanford release, this was from bomb testing release, that we expanded to Alaska. And there the cesium became a significant factor. And we observed a number of things. One of the things I found quite very interesting was the seasonality of intake of--or our observing higher levels of the cesium in the Eskimos didn't appear to be like it should be. It was sort of displaced by six months. And we discovered that the reason is that the Eskimos hunted the reindeer during their migration period, after they had been browsing on lichen. That was their forage during the winter. And then the Eskimos would deep freeze these caribou—or reindeer--deep freeze them in their permafrost pits. And then they would eat them during the following six months, so that the high levels of cesium were offset. [LAUGHTER] And lichen is an interesting plant because it does not die back like annual plants. It continues to grow, and that's the reason that it accumulates, because it accumulates from the time it starts exist until it's eaten. And so you have an accumulation of material over a period of time. [LAUGHTER] As I think about it, another interesting thing, to me at least, was that among the cities that had levels of strontium higher than others was San Francisco. And we puzzled about that and finally concluded that probably the reason they had a higher level was that they ate a lot of whole wheat bread. And the whole wheat would contain typically higher levels of calcium. Well, strontium is a counterpart of calcium, so it would be taken up just like calcium would. And that's the only reason we could think of why San Francisco would have higher levels of that. So it was exploring not only the effects of radiation, but the distribution of radionuclides, not just from the plant here, but worldwide. Bauman: Interesting. So you mentioned that you studied rabbits onsite. What sort of findings did you have? Did they have any unusually high levels of iodine? Hungate: Well of course, they were very close in to the plant. And so their content of iodine was higher than as you go on out. So they sort of gave us an indication of any variation which would be interesting to follow up on. Bauman: So you came in 1952. How long did you work at Hanford? Hungate: Well, I really can't remember exactly when I retired, but I worked here close to 30 years. And then I had a very interesting period of about five years post-retirement from Pacific Northwest labs. I was hired to examine record literature. The cardboard boxes that contained all of the research notes, everything pertaining to Hanford, which had--amazing to me--had been stored and was looked at. And it was looked at because suddenly people became very interested in potential effects on people. And this came about during that period when there was quite a little agitation to reimburse people who could have taken up higher levels of radionuclides, either workers or downwinders, or whatever. And I had the opportunity of looking through the boxes. And I was telling my son, Tom, that one of the things that I was so interested in, and I was able to read the diary of Matthias, who had located this land. And also the descriptions of the construction. Our labs, at that time, in the earlier part, were out of 100F. Were just across the road from 100-F Reactor. And I was so interested to see the comments that were made during construction of it. This is--and I don't remember the dates--but those reactors were built in basically a year, when we knew nothing about radiation. Now of course, it takes about 15 or 20 years to build one, because there’s all kinds of hurdles to go through. Anyhow, as I was reading, why, here was this diary of the--and I can't remember his name—the officer who was in charge of the construction. And it said, and we've finished the third layer of carbon block today. [LAUGHTER] It was just very exciting. Bauman: You mentioned when you arrived in 1952, that it was really hot. Hungate: August, August, yes. Bauman: Yeah. What were your other first impressions of the area? Had you been here previously at all? Hungate: Well, I was born in Cheney, and we—many times we were driving down to visit my brother in Vancouver, or go to California, or one thing, and we had seen this area. In fact, I don't remember why, but on one occasion my wife and I were traveling with the children back from Priest Lake, and we came through on the 4th of July, late. And I remember we didn't know what was going on here at all. And here was fireworks-- [LAUGHTER] --celebration out in the midst of nothing. And so it was a bit later that then we discovered when the--of course when the bomb was used everything became very public. And I also had had an earlier sort of indirect exposure to this area. My brother's brother-in-law used to teach out at White Bluffs. And it was very notable because I remember they had a very heavy duty problem because Norm had come into Kennewick for some kind of a party or something. Movie maybe? And on the way back home, some kind of an accident occurred, and the fellow teacher was killed. And the whole family of course was quite upset, and trying to console Norm and make him feel not too miserable with the whole arrangement. So I had known a little bit about this area. In retrospect it's interesting, as a kid all this area between Spokane and here was sagebrush. Just endless sagebrush. Rolling hills of sagebrush. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What was the community of Richland like when you arrived in 1952? Hungate: The big barracks that had been out at North Richland, had already been moved down to Vanport in Portland. And one reason that I know that had occurred was that they had the big Vanport flood while we were still in Portland. Where the dikes broke, and those huge dormitories went floating out into the Columbia on down the river. Anyhow, but we still had a lot of basically what I'd call shacks out in North Richland. And the town was sort of in a stage of recovery from heavy duty construction to operation. And the bypass was in place. We had the wind break around there. And that was a godsend, because those wind storms coming through were—I know our neighbors out on Cottonwood—we had a ranch house assigned to us—and our neighbors reported that previously when they had one of those dust storms come through, they'd put their--moist their towels and put them inside the windows, and still they'd have wind rows of dust. [LAUGHTER] And of course those were called termination winds. Termination because a lot of temporary construction disappeared. Blown away. And a lot of workers disappeared, moving away. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And when you moved into the ranch home on Cottonwood, I know Richland was a government town at the time. Were you able to own the home at that time? Hungate: Oh, no. That was assigned. We felt extremely fortunate in getting a reasonably nice sized home for the family and actually lived there three years, but then felt the pressure of needing a bigger place, and build over in Kennewick. It was sort of an interesting occasion because my wife and I, that night, each discovered that we found a piece of land that we were interested in. And when we went, we'd each seen the same piece. [LAUGHTER] A two-acre piece over in Kennewick. Bauman: I guess it worked out that you saw the same piece, then? [LAUGHTER] Hungate: It was fortunate it was the same piece. Bauman: So let's go back and talk a little bit more about the work you were doing. So you came as a research scientist in the biology department. I interviewed Bill Bair a while back, and he said that you hired him? Hungate: Yes. And I think after--there were a number of sort of group heads out there. Roy Thompson was a very heavy standard part, and gave me a lot of counsel in coming in. And I think it was either two or three years after we were here that we were able to get Bill to come and join us. And of course, he took over a lot of the animal work. I was initially a research scientist, and then became the head of the--I think it was called at that time, Plant Nutrition and Ecology, or something like that. And that's when I was in charge of monitoring the distribution of isotopes in Alaska, and one thing, and another. And then later the ecology group was split off. And I think I was then in charge of the Plant Nutrition Group. And instead of continuing to do individual research, I then carried on a program and gradually moved away from my prime field of genetics into a variety of other things. And I became heavily involved in looking at the use of radiation in foods. And became with my research, very, very much a positive--or my attitude was that it's very unfortunate we don't use radiation more in processing foods. I remember at that time they were using, and they may still be using, chemicals to inhibit sprouting in potatoes. And we found that a dose of--really a modest dose of maybe 5,000 rads--would inhibit sprouting. So I had access to it. And I typically always irradiated the potatoes I took home, because my wife really felt that they just kept much better. And so we used irradiated potatoes essentially all the time we were here. And one of the foods that I was very aware of was the papayas that—coming in from various places, and Hawai’i was a major one. They were treated with chemicals. And they came in and spotted and just not very--I had tasted and used when I was over on the island, irradiated papayas. And if they'd used irradiation instead of chemicals, they would have come in as basically just like they picked them off the tree. And the radiation of course was used—or the chemicals was used to get rid of noxious insects, pests that you didn't want to come into this country. Quite legitimate treatment, but I just felt they were using the wrong thing when they used chemicals. Then at a later stage, we became quite interested in just an evolving bone marrow transplant to treat leukemics. And one of the major problems that that kind of treatment, moving tissue between people is rejection. And early rejection was very serious when I first got involved. And we thought that there would be a possibility that irradiating the irradiation preferentially kills off actively dividing cells. And those who would be the white cells that cause leukemia, and also are the initiator of rejection. And so we scratched our head and came up with an idea for a blood irradiator. And that led to some work, and we evolved a unit using the radio isotope thulium as a radiation source. And there were three of us. Roy Bunnell was the chemist involved, and he made the units. Bill—hmm, can't bring up his last name—was the person who put everything together, and I was the sort of coordinator. I had to conceive the idea. Anyhow, we made and tested these blood irradiators in a variety of animals, mostly dogs. And our test was to transplant a kidney into the dog from another dog, and then determine how long it would survive as compared with unirradiated—dogs that had not been treated with the blood irradiator. And we found that there was always a significantly longer period of retention of the kidney. And in one particular case, there was—and I don't remember why it was so notable in that dog, except that he was on a little longer than others—when we autopsied, as we always did, to see what was going on, we examined the spleen. And a spleen typically is a mass about that size. In this case, it was hardly the size of an eraser on a pencil. It was just—all of the lymphocytes had been taken away. And that's the home for the lymphocytes, is in the spleen. And it shrunk the spleen down to basically nothing. But about the time we were well into that program, then they discovered a chemical—and I don't remember which one it is—which was very effective in suppressing rejection. And so there was a lack of interest in pursuing the blood irradiator. I think it's a possibility for treatments, various treatments that are resistant to other thing. One of the interesting features of the thulium is that you can make your object in the laboratory with no radiation whatsoever. And we use vitreous carbon to be the housing for the thulium. You put the thulium in whatever form you want, and then you get all your material formed, then you put it into a reactor and activate the thulium to become radioactive. So it's a very neat way of getting a radiation source where you don't have the problem of exposure during fabrication. Because of the advent of the chemical, there was no incentive to pursue and develop the blood irradiator into a human application. So although we had a patent, of course it's long lapsed. Bauman: Around what time period was this that you were working the blood irradiator? Hungate: I beg your pardon? Bauman: Around what time period would this have been that you were working on this? Hungate: Oh, I suspect we may have worked on that for I guess four or five years, maybe. Bauman: During what time would this have been? What years would it have approximately been? Hungate: I lose time. [LAUGHTER] I lose time. It's not-- Bauman: Yeah, that’s all right. I know in talking to Bill Bair, when he used dogs for his experiments, he used beagles. Did you use beagles for the experiments as well? Hungate: Yeah, we used the beagles as they say for--as our prime material. We also used both sheep and goats. And I look back with a great deal of pleasure because the goats were so interesting. They're quite an individual animal. And I remember of course, with the animal, the blood irradiator works by putting in what you call an AV shunt. An arteriovenous shunt. And the arterial pressure pushes the blood through. And the trick is to make your irradiator, or whatever it is, so that it doesn't cause clotting of the blood. And that was another part of the scenario, but I won't get into that now. But I would, at least once a day, check to make sure the flow was going. I used a Doppler flow meter, which measures the flow rate. And I remember as I was working with a goat, checking, and suddenly I realized that he was cropping my head. I didn't have much hair, but what little hair there was here, he was cropping. [LAUGHTER] He was trying to find something to munch on. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That’s crazy. Where did you get the goats, and sheep, and dogs, were you able to [INAUDIBLE]? Hungate: We had, let's see, we had dogs, we had goats, we had sheep, we had miniature pigs. These were our primary experimental animals. And there were a lot of different experimental programs going on simultaneously. In fact, one of the programs that was going on was we were looking at the possibility, it wasn't my group, the possibility of using plutonium-238 to drive a heart pump—have an artificial pump for the heart. And one of the things that was relevant was whether the body could easily dissipate the heat associated with the decay of the Pu-238 in the amount that would be needed. And I remember one autopsy that was performed. And we would take an electrically--a battery driven electric heater and put in the dorsal aorta to simulate what the plutonium-238 heat would be. We were looking at whether the body could tolerate that much extra heat. And so they had these electrically-driven battery pack driven heaters. And on one occasion we autopsied a pig that had had one of these right in the thoracic dorsal aorta, and discovered that the heater had somehow fractured and broken, and yet we had never seen any sign of body function failure or anything. And it's quite amazing to think that the auxiliary circulation could take over so immediately from the failure of that main thing that feeds the kidneys, the gut, the whole thing, back legs, everything--but the auxiliary circulation had taken over without ever noticing any big damage. Quite amazing. The body is an amazing function—amazing machine. Another major program that I have always looked back on was the use of what we call void metal in bone replacement, or bone fracture, or whatever. And the theory—we would have these things that we were putting in—basis for teeth—basis for repairing a break in a bone. We'd have our metallurgy department make these void metal prostheses, and then put them in and the tooth work was done on pigs. And we'd put in this post in the pig. And then put the cap on, just like is done now in artificial teeth. And then the pigs would be chewing on metal bars, and one thing or another. And we never lost one. And I remember on one occasion--this was not my program, this was in biology department--on one occasion, we took a section of femur out and put in a sleeve of void metal. Put it in there and repair the—suited up. And put the goat right out to pasture. Never saw any effect. Goat walked around just as though it had nothing except a slight—the operation itself. And as a consequence of all this, when I had my hip transplant back before I retired in fact, I had had a bad injury on the hip. And when I had a hip transplant, I had the void metal put in. And they were available. And I still have that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So you've benefited directly. Hungate: Yeah. I've benefited from my knowledge. Yep. Bauman: So, you and your unit worked on a wide variety of research projects. Hungate: Well of course, some of those--the void metal and many of those were not in mine. I was simply involved as one of the team that was interested in what's going on. Bauman: Right. So when you came in 1952, you worked for GE, is that right? Hungate: Yes, and they were here for basically 10 years. I felt GE was an excellent organization to work for. Bauman: I guess—what made them an excellent organization to work for? Hungate: They had a policy where if there were corporate meetings, everybody in the company would know within 24 hours what happened. They were very interested in everybody being interested in the company. And since retirement and so forth I—on a number of occasions—have run into former GE people, and uniformly I have found that they were all pleased with working with that corporation. And I guess, I believe, GE is the only member of the original--what do they have? 25 corporations that form the basis for one of the big evaluation, the national evaluations we have. And I think they're the only one of the originals that still is a member. Bauman: And then when GE left-- Hungate: Then GE of course, found itself in a conflict of interest situation where they felt that they could not operate this for the government, and then be building reactors for private applications. And they bowed out. And that's when Battelle took over. And again, Battelle is a very, very good organization to work for. Nothing but pleasure. Bauman: I want to ask you about President Kennedy came out to the site in 1963. Hungate: [LAUGHTER] That was--what a flap! Bauman: What do you remember about that? Hungate: Well we, along with large numbers of others, went out and at that time my son, Jess, was a member of the band that was asked to play when he came in. And so we were all crowded around there and watching, and then here comes a helicopter. And the band the strikes up Hail to the Chief. Well, this and that got out. Not Kennedy. So then another helicopter comes in, and they strike up the band. Some people got out, not Kennedy. I think there were at least three or four that came in before Kennedy actually came in. [LAUGHTER] It was quite--but the band played for every one of them. And he gave a very, very good talk. I thought it was quite a nice occasion. Bauman: Mm-hmm. During your roughly 30 years or so that you worked at Hanford, you obviously must've seen a lot of changes take place. Hungate: Oh yes, of course. Bauman: Obviously one of them being the change from GE to Battelle. But what are other changes? Hungate: Well, of course, one of the most dramatic changes. We used to have this lab out—a cement block building out there, three or four stories, right near F Reactor. So that we drove out and went through the security and all that kind of thing. And I must say, those drives were sometimes pretty exciting because we carpooled. And I guess I got the reputation of being a fairly speedy driver. And I remember one occasion we were driving out there, and we'd had a freezing rain. And it was just sheet—slick. In fact, it was so slick that when I stopped out here on Harris to pick up the last member of our carpool, I put on the brake and we just sort of kept on going. That's when I learned that with an automatic, you do not just let it drive; you put it in neutral, and then put on the brake. Because the driving force—the engine is still pushing you, unless you take it out of gear. So my philosophy on driving was when you go quite a distance and it's a fairly straight road, you keep your momentum going forward. And so I guess I developed a reputation for being a fairly rapid driver on that kind of road. But we never had any accident in that occasion. I guess the worst time was one of our members of the car pool at one time was a young woman who had one of these cars that had the high fin on the back. And as I got out, having gotten through security, the security checkpoint, not the first one, the second one right as we went into F Reactor, I inadvertently slammed the door and didn't get my finger out, and cut off one of my fingers in that fin. So I had to take me back in, get it sewed back in place. But it's still there. I just have a little scar there. [LAUGHTER] Anyhow, the driving out, then—and I can't tell you when it was--they abandoned that lab and moved Biology into a lab here in the town, next to town, still on government land. And that of course negated the big drive out, so that we didn't have that big commute. That's one of the major things. Then of course, as initially when we were with GE, the object was a very general one. Of studying the effects on whatever living system it was. One of the projects that I was involved with, we were very unsure what was the rate of deposition of I-131 on vegetation. So we set up a tower and deliberately released I-131, and then monitored downwind at a distance, to see what the deposition on the vegetation was. It was this kind of thing. As I mention this, another of the programs—and this was not our program, but one that we had reviewed and approved was there was no knowledge of the recovery of cells from radiation—the ability of cells to recover. And one of the men—scientists from Seattle had proposed a system where they could irradiate the testes and then recover cells, because that's a fairly rapid reproducing system. Recovering cells at periodic times. And they used inmates at Walla Walla for that program. And later that become extremely critical--there was a great criticism of that program. I had mentioned earlier reading these boxes of literature. It was interesting, I came across a letter from an inmate, a Walla Walla inmate, complaining that he had not been selected to go into this program. [LAUGHTER] This was done--the reading of the letter—my reading was at the time when all this heavy criticism of that program. So times change. When you learn more about things, then you become more interested in some of the details. And we wanted the big picture. We wanted to explore the big picture of effects. And I don't remember where we were in the discussion, but—[LAUGHTER] Bauman: Yeah, you were answering a question I had asked about changes taking place. And you mentioned a couple times security, having to go through security. Obviously, security was very much emphasized at Hanford. I wonder what ways that impacted you at all? Your work in any way? Or was it more just everyday you had to go through security to get--? Hungate: Had to be sure you had your badge. I guess in the security, that's a mixed bag. I guess one of the most troublesome times I had--and I don't remember what timeframe this was, except it was very early--was during the McCarthy era where we were forced, if we wanted to continue employment, to sign some kind of an agreement they were non-communist. I don't remember what it was. And I had quite a lot of soul searching to determine whether I was going to sign it or not. Because the whole era I felt so strongly was not appropriate. But when I actually read what was there, I decided I would sign it and stayed on. But if you didn't sign it, you were let go. Bauman: Did you know people who chose not to sign it at all? Hungate: I think I knew two or three, but there was a general signing, yeah. This was the era of course, when so many of the people in Hollywood were being heavily hit with this whole attitude. They didn't have to sign, but they certainly were abused. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Did security at the site get relaxed at all over the years? Or was it always pretty-- Hungate: Always pretty rigorous, yeah. And of course speaking of security, one of the things that I learned early on is how to put clothes on and take them off without getting any contamination on yourself. [LAUGHTER] You learn techniques of clothing, and how to handle radiation so that you are not seriously exposed, damaged. And we had very excellent so-called health physics people who monitored how we handled things. And if we were working with radiation, we always had a health physicist right there indicating—if we made a misstep, they'd tell us right there. Now that's not security; it's security in a different manner. But as far as I guess in security, very early on, we would, several times a day, see a security car going around through town. And almost immediately when we moved in, there was a security guy came and checked to make sure it was appropriate. And speaking of driving through town, that was a period when DDT was extensively used, and we were sort of appalled by—the mosquitoes were a serious problem. They had the potholes around the rivers here and so forth. And they had heavy duty sprayers going through town, putting out a fog--literally a fog--of DDT in this—whatever the carrier was. And it was so sort of shook my wife and me to see kids riding their bicycle right in this heavy fog following these foggers around town [LAUGHTER] breathing diesel or whatever it was that they were putting out, plus the DDT. I guess the kids survived well. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Going back, you've mentioned the special gloves that you wore, what other precautions did you have to take when you were working with radioactive material? Did you have other special clothing you had to wear? Hungate: Oh, yes. You always--when you were working, you always used at least a lab coat. If you were working where there was any potential for anything, then you had--you would have a coveralls, your shoes would be covered with canvas. Everything would be taped so that you were basically--here your face would be out, but nothing else. Your hands--these would be taped to the sleeves of the coveralls so that you were using--and when you got out of it, then you had to take these off in a manner so that if there was contamination on the clothing, you didn't get yourself contaminated. Now again, always with a health physicist. Bauman: And did you have to go through any sort of training—safety training for that? Hungate: No, we just really sort of were guided by the health physicists. And of course I had--while I was still teaching at Reed--I had taken a one-month course at Oak Ridge. And that had sort of prep me for this whole program. I took that because Reed had a reactor. And may still have it. I don't know. Anyhow, and that's of course why I got into that treatment of that patient who had the melanoma, because I had had some training in the use of radioisotopes. Bauman: You've mentioned a number of different research programs or projects that you were involved in. I wonder, in your 30 years working at Hanford, what were some of the more challenging aspects of working Hanford? Some of the challenging things you worked on, and maybe some of the most rewarding? Hungate: Well, of the things about being a research scientist, is that you sort of set your own agenda. And I guess after Battelle took over, there was not a ready access to overall programs. And one of the challenges that we had to move into was writing a proposal for funding. And that came with Battelle. And then your program was dependent on that being accepted for use during the next year or two. And I think many of us found that one of the more challenging problems. And of course any scientist nowadays is doing the same thing every year—writing a program by which they get funded. And as a scientist, I think that's one of the biggest challenges that you have. Once you get the funding, then you have different challenges, but they're much more easily visualized and taken care of. That it was quite an awakening when we moved from the overall general funding, where there was a great deal of cooperation among different physicists, chemists, whatnot, biologists, to having individual programs that were funded. And at the time, we thought it was a regression. But it was just simply a maturation of programs that had to occur. Bauman: And how about the most rewarding aspect of working at Hanford, what was it? Hungate: Oh, I think we had a great group of people to work with. And I think the association with minds and people that were similarly involved was in my opinion, just wonderful, quite great. I had the great opportunity of being asked to spend a year in Greece as a consultant to the Greek Atomic Energy Program. And that was--let's see. That happened in--was still with GE at the time. So that would have been in the late 50s. And the family and I—there were a number of us. Spent a year in England, various places. I think one of--Jack Cline spent a year in Tunisia. One of my biology--Bob Euler spent a year in England. So there was quite a lot of worldwide exchange. And one of the features that I look back on that I don't remember--I think we had about five or six groups in biology--and when we would have an annual research get together, an international get together, and be hosts here, then our group--all our heads would get together with Harry Kornberg and whatnot, and host these. And we would have these people come to our home. And I remember one occasion when Harry Kornberg was hosting. And he had a big barbecue pit behind his house, and somehow or other, a little over hot, hot. And he was having these chickens on--with huge flames coming. [LAUGHTER] It was somewhat seared. But as a group, we just worked together to make these nice occasions. And I had a couple of acres over in Kennewick, and I had planted pie cherry trees, because when teaching at Reed, Reed had some pie cherry trees. And they had you pick, so you could go and pick. And I thought that was so great, so when I had this acreage, I planted about, as I recall, something of the order—30 or 40 pie cherries, and the same number of peaches. And so I produced the pie cherry. I discovered that you could not allow people to pick peaches, because the branches were much too brittle. They'd break the branches off when they'd reach. Pie cherries are much tougher, and you could allow you pick. Anyhow—and I had all--quite a little excess fruit which I then began to ferment and make into wine. And on one occasion, we were having a group over to our house for the dinner and evening, and I was serving wine. And it was in the fall. And I looked around, and practically everybody's glass had at least three or four drosophila. You know, these fruit flies had settled in their glass of wine. [LAUGHTER] So it's just one of the things that happens, particularly when you have a lot of fruit around. So anyhow, these sort of personal reactions were very, very gratifying. Bauman: I just want to go back a bit and clarify, so what building did you work out of initially? Where were you located? Hungate: 100-F. And I forget the number of the building. That brings up another idea. When I was in charge of a cesium irradiator. And it was a big tub of lead, and had six tubes. And the cesium was stored down in this big tub of lead for shielding, so you could access without having exposure. And then you would have these pellets of cesium raised up into tubes that you could adjust to different sizes and spread. And you'd close a big door this thick of concrete, to provide shielding. And then irradiate. That's where I had to rad my wife's potatoes. And we, at one stage, became involved with a group over in Seattle who was interested in the same kind of thing that we got in with the blood irradiator, providing sterile food to the people who had the bone marrow transplants. So they wouldn't become infected with something that they couldn't fight off because they were being compromised in their immune reaction. And so we had, I'd say two or three years, where we were working with the head of food to irradiation over there, Fae Dong, and her students, looking at ways of producing in that case, primarily dairy products. And we examined the radiation of ice cream and things you can't sterilize really, any other way. And a lot of them were just great. It turned out that milk and some of the milk products, develop what's called the Wet Dog Syndrome. You know the odor of a wet dog? Well, this food developed that kind of odor. But we were irradiating with massive amounts. Somewhere on the order of 5 million rads to get it totally sterile. These are the same kinds of treatments that the astronauts--the kind of food that the astronauts had--they were treated with similar kinds of doses—very massive. And I also used the irradiator as a service unit for various people in the industries. I know I irradiated some soil samples for folks up in the Forest Service in Idaho. And there was a private guy who was developing high yield mint. Mint used to be a big crop around in this area. He was from Corvallis. And maybe two or three times a year, he would bring me slips of mint, and then I'd put them around this irradiator and irradiate them. And the reason you're doing that is you're creating mutations. Then he would take them and plant them, and then select those that produce the higher amounts of mint oil. And I think we were quite successful in improving the rate of mint production by his process of selection. We did a number of—I was working with another man over in Pullman. He was interested in irradiating beans, as I recall. And in talking with him later, he said that, you know, those beans that you irradiated, they cooked in about half the time that it normally would take to cook. Well, that makes good sense, because ionizing radiation breaks long bonds. And that's basically what happens with cooking. So you're pre-cooking your beans with irradiation. [LAUGHTER] And as far as flavor is concerned--oh yeah, mentioning flavor. We were also working with a group—I don't remember which one of the big canning corporations—and they were bringing in corn. And we irradiated corn with massive amounts of radiation. Sterilizing amounts. And then we would take the irradiated and the non-irradiated around, and have the folks around the lab taste them. And I was very interested because when we did this, the preference on the average, was they preferred the irradiated corn over the normal corn, unirradiated corn. The flavor was enhanced by the irradiation. Bauman: Interesting. Wow. Hungate: Yeah. That's one thing that I think we've really missed the boat. I think we should be using nuclear power more, much more. And I think we should be using irradiation much more. And you’d never know until you get into using something, what are the things that are positive versus those that are negative. And it's just a process of experimenting. And one reason I became convinced in that was that corn experiment we did. Where people were actually preferred the irradiated over the non-irradiated. I wouldn't have believed it until we did it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: You mentioned earlier when we were talking about chemicals being used on foods versus irradiated foods. So why do you think that that has been that we haven't done more of that irradiated foods, or used chemicals more than radiation? Hungate: The press has chosen to make irradiation a very bad thing, whether it's for generating power or whatever. And my wife commented that had we been introduced--had the public been introduced to electricity with the electric chair, their attitude toward electricity might be quite different than it is. The US public was introduced to radiation with a nuclear bomb. They knew basically nothing about it. In fact, I remember going in to shoe stores and sticking my foot into an irradiator to see how my foot fit in the shoe. You thought nothing about it. And I think her comparison was quite apt. It gave the press the pressure to be a negative thing about radiation. Bauman: Well— Hungate: And also, so few people have the opportunity of working with it like I did. To realize that it's just there, and you just treat it with respect. And I guess also, I am—and there is some literature to back this up—I have for a long time felt that a small amount of radiation is a very positive thing. The literature that I refer to is some studies that were made in the spas, these hot springs in Europe, where people went in and sat in these caves or whatever. Those were high radiation situations. And the studies that I am talking about looked at those people who worked in these facilities, where there were periods of eight or 12 or whatever hours, compared to a comparable number in the town—comparable people in a town who did not work there. And they found that the average health and longevity was better among those who worked in those facilities than in those that did not. And I remember my uncle and aunt used to go over to Montana and go down in a mine and sit in a radiation exposure mine. And so I think that furthermore, all life has evolved in much higher radiation environment than we now have. By the nature of radiation, the earth is gradually losing its radiation, because it's decaying. And so we literally are losing the radiation to which we have grown up with and evolved with. So personally, I think a low level radiation is a positive thing. That's contrary to the current philosophy. Bauman: Let me ask you one more question. That is, I teach a course on the Cold War. My students are all too young to remember the Cold War. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: The Cold War? Yes. Bauman: Why do you think it's important for people to learn about Hanford and some of the work that was done there? Hungate: Well, I guess my feeling is that, as I said earlier, few people have had the opportunity of working with radiation. And the more you know about people who have worked with it, and—for instance, myself. I'm 96, and I've been working with radiation a long—major part of my life. And I think it's essential that people learn more about everything. For instance, very few people realize that the radiation put out from burning coal is more than you get from a nuclear plant. That does not make me a person who is interested in more coal to get more radiation, despite my comments. [LAUGHTER] But I just think we need to know more about our history and things that we don't get in touch with on many occasions. It's like everybody's interested in Cousteau because he's in an environment that we really aren't able to get into. It's that kind of attitude. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your stories about all the work you did. I really appreciate it. Hungate: It's my pleasure. Bauman: Thanks very much. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:14:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 256 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-F Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1952-1982 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Cline, Jack Euler, Bob Kornberg, Harry Dong, Fae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Hungate Description An account of the resource An interview with Frank Hungate conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-8-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 100-F Area General Electric Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdfa2883690d66b46458994015cf91064.jpg a77b57018d78894c9909a7f7c3d9a971 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffabfb4537fb2ff3a948c8b9538c13b31.mp4 537166055b8bb91638bc7a8bcac26543 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Frank Hungate Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Hungate Description An account of the resource An interview with Frank Hungate conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F16b66f3e1c1cb8b8ed294a6dddb21740.jpg ad0e3f5431004fd43548afb7264e924a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc0f13b96fadf7bb738c566537000019d.mp4 1271c49a08b7d223b0499f5b78e53ec9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Trent, Frank Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Trent_Frank Frank Trent: Well I don't know. Robert Bauman: I just let people tell their stories is really what the primary thing is. I have some questions to try and help it along a little, but--So we're going? Man one: Yeah. Bauman: Okay, great. All right. So maybe before I ask any questions, if I could have you say your name and spell it for us. Trent: Okay. My name is Frank Trent. And I live in Richland, Washington. Bauman: And the last name is T-R-E-N-T? Trent: Yes. Bauman: Okay. Great. And my Name's Robert Bauman. And we are conducting this oral history interview on February 12th of 2013 on the campus at Washington State. Trent: '14. Bauman: What's that? '14. Trent: [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Thank you. You would think by February I would have figured-- Trent: You want to start over? Bauman: No, we're good. I'll just say 2014. It's still this form that has it. There we go. So I wonder if we can start by maybe just telling us what brought you to Hanford. How you came here? What brought you here? And maybe your initial impressions of the place? Trent: Well, I first came here in 1950, in the winter of 1950. And we came over the pass. At that time, it was—there was no Snoqualmie Pass at the time. It was the one out on 410 highway going over the mountains. Closes every winter. Bauman: Not White Pass, huh? Trent: Nope. Bauman: I don't know. Trent: Maybe it'll come to me. Anyway, we came over the pass in the back of a Deuce and a Half truck. And it was a whole company of us. And pre-military set up here. And we came in and there was snow about 200 feet in the air where they plowed it often, blew it into the mountains. And all you could see is walls of snow on both sides. But anyway, we came on in down here and lived in a pup tent. You don't know what those are probably. You do? Bauman: Mm-hmm. Trent: And two people teamed up. And here you had something about the size of a blanket. And it was thinner than a blanket. It was called a--the material was made like a tent material. And we called them pup tents. There was two people. And each person carried a half of it. And then when you went out into the fields or combat or wherever, you set that tent up. And that's where you lived. Well, it was pretty cold here. And we wound up burning anything we can get a hold of. It's a wonder we didn't kill ourselves. And these little pup tents, they only had a little opening you could make, or you'd get too much stuff in there--air, cold air. Bauman: Do you remember any specific things that you burned? Trent: Show polish. Anything that would get heat. Paper, shoe polish, anything. And that was the worst I guess. And we had one guy freeze to death. I don't know. It was cold. I started driving a water truck. And I wound up in the back of the water truck. It was a Dodge, 3/4 ton Dodge pickup. And it had a cover on it. So I slept in there. And during the night, the water container froze and busted. And I got water all over there and it froze. And I was sleeping in ice. [LAUGHTER] Me and another guy. But that was the shock of it when you got here was there was nothing here but desert. There was a few trees, but people hadn't started raising too many trees at that time. If they did, they weren't very big. That was my--and when we went out, we went out on the Project and stayed out there for three weeks. They had four groups. One group was off all the time. And the other three was covering around the clock. And we set up 120 millimeter gun emplacements, set up in a diamond formation. And then off to the side in the openings of the diamond formation, there was four 50 caliber machine gun nests. And we could fire. And we did. We fired tracers, and every so often, a tracer would come out. They were timed so that every so many shells, and then a tracer would come out. That way you could follow that tracer with your—aiming your gun. But they were also hooked up to, at a later time, to the radar. And there was radar guided. Anyway, that was the emplacements. And we had a full crew there 24 hours a day. And we went up to Yakima and took our guns with us. Two of them I think is all we took though. They were beginning to set up that firing range up there. And we were doing pretty good at shooting that thing. And evidently, the radar got off a little bit with their calculations. And wound up, we shot the cable off just off the tail end of the airplane. They left. They didn't want any more. They says, we're going and we're ain't coming back. So that's part of it. Anyway, that's the beginnings of my arrival here. Bauman: Where on the site were you? Trent: Are you familiar enough with the old Y? You go through the first barricade, then you drive for, I don't know, about halfway to 2 West, 2 East. Maybe not quite that far, but there's a turn off there. Goes back towards, still 2 East, that 2 East area. And then you go on down and pick up 2 West. And we turned off just after that barricade out there at the Y. It may be two miles down from that Y area, there was a turn-off. And there was dirt, gravel and dirt. That's the old military highway road. And we were back in there probably five or six miles. You could see Rattlesnake very plainly from there. And a later time, when they built that road down through there going out to Yakima—Horn Rapids High Road—and at a later time, why, you could see that road and traffic on it from out there. Because I went out there with a group on our 50th military reunion and we made a new visit there. And cars were going by. Then there was no road back there. Anyway, at that time, if the cars that had been there--we were that close to where the highway's at now. There's a big knoll out there, just a rounded hill of sand. And that was between us and the Rattlesnake Mountain. So that'll give you a general location of where we were. It was A Battery, 518th. Bauman: Okay. So where were you from originally? Had you ever been to this part of the Northwest before? Trent: No. I come out of Harlan County, Kentucky. Lot of hills down there, rolling hills, but nothing mountainous like we know them now. Born and raised on a farm. Family of 17—18, counting me. And one mother and father. And we raised everything we could raise to eat ourselves. And the only thing we bought was stuff like staples that you had to have that you didn't grow. My dad was a coal miner, and the older boys actually raised the foods that we needed. Fed the animals, and ate the animals. And then in, let's see, October the 8th, 1949, I and two other guys from that area joined the service. I rode a bus. It was raining, about 6:15 in the morning. Got on the bus and never looked back. We went from there to Harlan and got in a military bus. And they drove us to Corbin, Kentucky. And that's right in there near Knoxville. And from there, we got on the train. We went to Louisville and then to Fort Knox. So that's how I got to that. Then we spent three or four months, I don't remember, in basic training. And then we shipped out in trucks for this side of the mountain, for Washington. Well first, we came out by train. And then we got into buses and trucks and went up to Fort Lewis, and Fort Lewis over here. We were selected as the first group to arrive in the Tri-Cities to help set up. Bauman: Oh, okay. So how long were you at Fort Lewis then? Trent: Just long enough to not want it. We did a lot of advanced basic training, crawling through mud and dirt and dust. And when you come out of there, you couldn’t see nothing but eyeballs. You was hot and then you put your arm down to crawl forward and then shooting over top of you with tracers. And the dust would puff up and it would stick to you, sweat on your body. So that was an experience. Bauman: Yeah. So you said when you were out of the site, you were there for about three weeks. Then you'd have a week off, then you’d go back. So in terms of food when you were out on site, what sort of food did you have? If you were in the tents all the time? Trent: Well at the beginning, before we really got set up, we was eating what you would call combat type rations. They'd come in containers and it was dished out after it was heated up. Our stove was a Bunsen burner under pots and pans. And we’d go through a line and dunk our mess kit in the boiling water and get any germs off of it that way. And then we ate dinner, and then we come back and had another container we dunked it in and brushed it out. And then dunked it in clean boiling water again. So that's how we kept stuff kind of sanitized. And a lot of people got dysentery from it. But mostly, it wasn't—we didn't have it too bad. Food wasn't too bad. And at a later time, after we got to set up, we had a regular mess tent and cooks. And we ate good. Sand in it, but we ate. Bauman: So did you know anything about Hanford before you came here? Trent: No, and I didn't know anything after I got here. But none of us did. We just knew we was guarding this installation, and we would be on around-the-clock duty. If you were asleep, the alarm sounded, everybody went to their stations. And we had a number of planes come through. And we had to get our big guns on it. And we would track it until they gave us the order to shoot. We only shot one time out there. And that was basically to settle the guns in and orient them so when they shot at something, they got fairly close. Those 120 millimeter shell casings were probably about that long. And the projectile was probably about that long. And they were timed: after you shot one of them into the air, they were timed to the target. And then they blew up. And supposedly it would supposed to knock down anything within a—I think it was 75 yards radius. So it could get anything in four directions. And we come close to getting the target plane. Yeah, it wasn't funny to the pilot, but it was funny to us. Bauman: So then when you had a week off, where did you go? Did you go to town? Trent: We had barracks in town. And that's the barracks here in North Richland. If you're coming up George Washington Way going north and you come to that rise in the road, and then you can level and go down toward Battelle. Just as you cleared the top of the road, there was a steam and boiler plant, steam generating plant just off to the left. And then the road that went by that—that was one of the first roads. We generally would turn on that. All of that area back down in there was barracks. And you can still see some of the pedestals that they sat on. And then over on the other side of GW Way there was—no, I guess it's still on the same side. They just add roads dividing the camp. And we were fairly close to a service station over on the highway, highway Stevens if you're going out to Hanford. We were just off of that a little bit—our outfit was. And from there, whoever was ready to go in and go back out, why, we took off in Deuce and a Half trucks. And we'd go out in a convoy and relieve the other outfit that was out there. And while you were gone, your camp was taken over by a new group. And that rotated. Bauman: So, on sort of a typical day, what might your duties be? What sorts of things might have happened? Trent: Scavenging. We made trips around out there. They probably figured out what we were doing, but they didn't seem to bother us because we didn't have nothing but tents at first. And so we'd scavenge enough stuff until we could put some stuff together to get in out of the wind. We couldn't get away from the sand though. But we did that and then done our duty. And we went off duty in the late afternoon and after dinner, we was off for the evening unless you got an alarm, an alert. And immediately, whatever you could get on, why you got on, and you got on those guns. Got everything turned on and adjusts your azimuth and elevation, and be ready to fire whatever come through if you were told to fire. Bauman: So how long did you have just the pup tents? At what point did you [INAUDIBLE]? Trent: It's probably about two months. And they come in and put up what we called a trip tent. And it's big enough to hold about ten people, five bunks down each side. And then later we put in wooden floors in them, and so we'd raise them up off of the ground a little bit so we wouldn't be sleeping right next to the ground. So, they brought it all out, and we had to put it together. Bauman: And so how long were you doing this? How long were at Hanford in this capacity? Trent: I was out there almost three years, And this discharge here. And by then, I was married and had one kid when I was discharged. Discharged in February of '53. And from that point, I found whatever I could to work at. But it wasn't much for a while. Finally I put in an application for General Electric, and they hired me. And that was my first trip as a civilian out to Hanford. Bauman: You mentioned you got married. Did you meet your wife here? Trent: Yes. Her dad came in '43. Actually, he came in 1940 out to the Northwest. And he went back to Memphis again. And from that point, he was working just across the border in Arkansas, out of Memphis. And some guy come through, I guess from the government, and put the word out, anybody want to transfer or go move to Washington? We've got a project up there we're building, and we need help. Anybody we can get to go. And he came out with that group and worked out here. And a year later, she came out. Well first off, he came in '40, went back and came back in about '43, in '43. And then he was here about a year, and then the kids came out. They came out by railroad, and no supervision. I think she was 12, my wife, 11 or 12. Her mother had—she would have been 12--because her mother had died earlier, tuberculosis. And she came out, and the rest is history. He stayed here and raised his family and worked at Hanford and wound up--one day, they came in and they had nobody that could really read a blueprint and follow it. And so they come around looking, and somebody said, go see Mac. He'll do that. And that was the beginning of his rise, which didn't go very far. He was some kind of a maintenance supervisor out there. And they come and got him and he said, let's see your prints. And he looked at them a little bit. Yeah, he said, I can build it. So they took him over there and he built the building for them with a crew. But they'd already started building. He had to tear it all down because it was wrong. And then after, I don't know, maybe six months, seven, I was in passing, and went into the drugstore at O’Malley’s—you remember where that was at? Okay. That had a little soda fountain in there. And I went in there and me and another guy and ordered a milkshake. And she said what kind do you want? I says, any kind you got. I don't know, just a milkshake. She figured she'd fix me, so she went back there and made me a suicide milkshake. Everything in the fountain went in it. That drink’s pretty good. So that's where I met my wife, 1950. And we were married in December after that. Bauman: That's a great story. Trent: Raised three boys. One of them is a Microsoft jet pilot. Flies for Microsoft. And one of them, well at this particular time, is in Edmonton, Canada—construction manager of some kind, hot spot guy. And the other one, Frank, is working in construction over on the west side. And he is living in Brown's Point in Tacoma, right on the ocean. Bauman: Yeah. So you mentioned at some point you got a job with GE. What sort of job was that? Trent: Anything to get on. I started out doing manual labor and mowing lawns. And I probably had about five or six months of that. And then I was transferred to White--not White Bluffs—Riverton. And I was doing maintenance work and oil changes on the railroad engines. And many times you'd have oil clean up to your elbows. And I don't know what they did with the oil. We drained it out into containers, and they disposed of it. Probably illegally, in these days. And from there then I went to work at 2 West. And I worked T Plant, U Plant,--at T Plant 221-T, 224-T, those two plants. And then I worked also, that was T-Plant. And then U Plant, I went to work down there. They needed people down there, so they sent me down there and done the same thing down there in U Plant, because the areas were almost identical in operation. And then the stuff that came out of there went to REDOX I believe. And they run through the procedures there, separating stuff out and boiling it down to what they were really looking for. And so anyway, we handled a lot of powdered uranium in that 224 Building. And after it was centrifuged, the heavy metal uranium powder was thrown out to the sides and stuck to the sides of the centrifuges. And the liquid was settled back down and drained back out and recycled back through I guess. I don't remember exactly the procedure. And we'd ship that uranium out of there and put it in barrels. And it was shipped out, I don't know where it went to. Maybe some of it went to Oak Ridge, I don't know. And then that was in operations. And we worked the hot zones. And they had us when we'd go into one, we'd have the RAMU people. They'd check you in, and when you had up to your limit on exposure, you'd come out. Go in and take samples and clean up in areas that were really hot spots. Bauman: When you did those sorts of things, what sort of protective clothing did you wear? Trent: Well, we would go in and change into SWP clothing and hoods. We had our regular shoes and we put covers over the shoes, plastic over the covers. And your pants legs were all taped down so that nothing could get through. And gloves, of course. And it was all taped down. And the last thing that went on was a mask. You had a canister of air. And I think you had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes and you're out of air. You better be out of there, or at least close enough where you could hold your breath and run to get out of there. Yeah, we worked the hot zones quite a bit. Sometimes we'd have to work until we were triple exposed to get a job done. And then of course we was relieved out of that until we were even with the scale of exposure. So that when you back in, why, they basically had you at zero exposure for starting back up. There was a lot of sitting time, because they had to have the people. And if you didn't keep them there, you didn't have the people to do the jobs. So rather than fire them, they'd put them on clean work. And if they didn't have that, you sat in the lunch room and played cards. Then from there—I went in and later, I went from the 2 West Area to the 100 Areas, and was in power operation there--boilers, refrigeration, air conditioning, and pumping stations that pumped water for the reactors. Bauman: So you were at several places on site then? Trent: Mm-hmm. I worked 100 B, C, D, DR, 2 West, not 2 East, but I'd been in 2 East a number of times. 2 West, I think that's about it out there, Riverton of course, at the beginning I was in Riverton. That's the old railroad station that hauled stuff in and out of Hanford. Bauman: So of those—of the different places on site that you worked at different jobs that you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most? Trent: I enjoyed operating equipment--boilers, steam engines, pumping water, of course, electric, diesel generators. We had on our river pump station, we had pumps down there that'd pump 105,000 gallons per minute each of water. And if something happened to those pumps, then the diesels come online automatically. Now the diesel size was the PT boat that John Kennedy used when he was in the service. They were two diesel generators of the same size that came out of the—or were installed in the PT boats. And they were pretty good size. They would pump the same amount of water as the big electric box. The lines, I don't know what size they were now. I seem to remember 100, 102 inches in diameter. Pretty good sized piping. And if something happened, the scram, why, of course, they had to have water and generally pumped through with the diesels if something happened to a pumping station. So you always had backup. There was one incident in the 200 Area's power house. We had a backup generator down there generating electricity to use in case of power outages or whatever. And they were set on automatic standby. And my father-in-law was at that with his crew, was there doing work in that area. And it was in an open, kind of an open area. The showers were in that general area too. Never had a problem with any of those diesel generators. And they were in there eating dinner. They set a row of lockers up to separate the area. And that was where they ate. And that's where they went in and took showers before they went home. Or they come out of hot zone, they still had to take a shower. And they were in there having dinner, and for some unknown reason, nobody hung around. They ate their dinner, and they got up and went out back to the job and whatever they were doing I guess, early. And the generator tripped and came online. There was something wrong with the governor. And a diesel generator when it turns loose like that, and it can't get fuel from one place, it'll get it from another. It went on up to critical speed and blew up. And it embedded metal about three inches into concrete, solid concrete. So that's how bad—it could have wiped out everybody in that room. It wiped the room out. All their lockers and everything, that was gone. But that was one of the incidences that I remember that happened. Bauman: Do you have any idea roughly what time period that might have been? Trent: Phew, no, I don't. It would've been in the low '50s, early '50s. Because he went to work there in 2 West when I first came here. Yeah, his crew worked 2 West, 2 East. So they rotated around, wherever they were needed. But that happened to be in the 2 West Area where that generator blew up. Nobody was hurt. Pure luck. Bauman: Earlier when you were talking, you mentioned that when you were in the army stationed out here, you didn't really know anything about Hanford or what was going on? Trent: Well, we know we were guarding the installations there. And we knew that workers came in by buses and left by buses. And then later years—first you couldn't drive a car out there of any kind other than government. And then later years of course, that was relented and people could drive out there to their area. But mostly we were in and out of there in buses. And we came in nothing but bus to the 1100 Area, which is over here, off of Spangler, south of Stevens. And we came into there and unloaded there in a big parking lot in there while we had our cars parked there. So that's the routine. Everyday, we get up, the buses come through town and picked you up, all you to the 1100 Area. You changed to your area bus and get on there and it'd take you to right straight to your area, and off of there and check you through the security. And the same way when you come out. Security would check you out, you'd get on the bus, they'd haul you home. Bauman: Was there at some point that you ended up driving your own car out? Or would you take buses? Trent: I did a couple of times, but it wasn't worth it. There's too much fuel. But fuel was cheap then, compared to now. Still, you had to—and we came out when John F. Kennedy came out here. The whole family went out. And I was at that time working at 100 N Area. And we got 100 N Area up. And I was on duty the night they went critical and put the reactor in operation. That was the first dual purpose reactor, 100 N. Bauman: Do you have any specific memories about when President Kennedy was here? What the day was like, or remember anything about him arriving? Trent: The only thing I know is we were--they had the place set up for visitors to come in. And they had a lot of chairs. And a lot of it was standing room only because they didn't have enough chairs. They were getting ready to build the Washington Public Power Supply System’s generating system out there. And the pumps, those pumps I swear that they were longer than this room, each pump, steam-generated or steam-powered. And that was 109 N, was that generating place. And people were rotated shift-wise the same way—ABCD was the shifts. And of course, the fourth one was off. And then while that one was off, a spare would come in. So actually it's five crews. It was interesting. I worked water side of it for a lot of years. We had one guy that worked out there that was scared to death of something he couldn't understand. And he could not understand the big piece of equipment operating. And he was scared of it. And one night on duty—our shift was, and the chief engineer said Frank, can you get down to 181 real quick. I says, well, yeah. So anyway I headed out, grabbed the first pickup I could find in the parking area there and drove it down to 181. Both diesels were running backup. Don't know what happened, still don't. Anyways, I found him. He was sitting back in a corner away out of sight of the diesels. He was standing there in a corner shivering, just scared—petrified. So I got him out and put him out in the pickup. And I say you stay out there and let me take care of the problem here. So anyway, I guess I took care of the problem and then got him out there. So I got the generators under control and asserted the diesels under control, put them back on automatic and standby. And then the other pumps of course, got them going in the order I was doing the job. And I went and got him back out there. And when I reported in and wrote the incident up, he came to me, I don't know, very short time thereafter. And he says Frank, I'm going to quit. He said, I'm married, I've got three kids. I can't get into the military. And that's what I want to do. So he said I'm going to divorce my wife and I'm going to volunteer for the Coast Guard. And he did that. And the next thing I know, he put a transfer in from the Coast Guard into the military, army. And they accepted him. So he got into the military even though he was married. And a few years down there, well I guess it was nothing but two or three years, or a year or two. Anyway I got a call from my son who was a warrant officer flying helicopters down in Louisiana, Texas and Louisiana area. But anyway he--I guess, yeah, it was Texas. Killeen, Texas. He said do you know a Dave Eggar? I said, yeah. He said you won't believe this, but he's the guy in charge of training us in these helicopters. [LAUGHTER] And he had went through the school, learned how to fly the helicopters, and wasn't afraid of them at all. And he wound up leading that group that my son was in through their training program. And my son flew choppers down there. He already had his private pilot license. He got that before he got out of high school. And anyway, he spent his time in the military and he started flying with them. Wound up at his own company with two jets and a chopper and a little fixed wing, twin engine plane. And then 9/11 went and wiped him out. His business went to nothing. So then he started with putting his pilot's license out there, his experience in getting letters out. And he got a call one day from Microsoft people and went to work for them. He's still doing it, all over the world. Bauman: Yeah. I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned when you were in the army here and you would have you week off, you stayed in barracks. Once you got married, what sort of housing did you have? Trent: The first house we got was a small--I think it was about a 20-foot trailer, used. And a lot of the early Hanford people would move trailers in out there. And added onto them as a matter of fact. But as they had kids in a small trailer, where do you put them? You put a room on it. And that's what we did, we lived in that trailer. And then we lived there up until I was discharged. And then we bought a trailer. And I was working for a guy that didn't like the idea of me buying a trailer. It was a single wide. But it was about, I don't know, probably 50 feet long, somewhere in that. It may not have been that big. It was big enough, it had three bedrooms. And bought the trailer and moved it in and set up in and fat, dumb, and happy. But he didn't like the idea of me working for him who was selling trailers and buying it from somebody else. So he fired me. [LAUGHTER] So that was our first home. And then we were forced to move out of the place out there next to the Battelle area, just south of Battelle. We had to move out of there because I wasn't in the military anymore. When I did go to work for GE, we got a house, prefab. I think it was a--first one was a two-bedroom. And then we got a three-bedroom house. And we lived there until they started selling the town back to people. And I was interested. They set it up in blocks. So they would complete the transfer of one block by contracts to the owner that lived in it. And some of the prices were, for the two bedrooms, were like $2,500. And three bedrooms was just slightly more, like $3,000, $3,200. And I don't think any of them ran over $5,000, any of the homes. And lo and behold, I got an eviction notice. I was laid off in between. And two days after they evicted me and I got out of that house, they sold my block. So I didn't get a house. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that was kind of how we got started. Finally, I left here and worked down in Colorado for about a year and a half, two years. And put in a transfer back there, a transfer or quit and came back to—I was out here on vacation a week's vacation, ten days I guess. And I dropped by the unemployment office and they said yeah, we'll put you back to work. So anyway, I went down and terminated. Gave them my notice and came back out here and went to work. And I worked there until—see I don't remember now, '50—hmm. Late '60s, because I left the project completely in '68. And I was out there one day and boss came in and said, Frank, he said, I understand you talked to so and so. He’s an instrument guy, a contractor that installed instrumentation and tubing for those instruments. I don't remember his name. And he told you were a job was at. And I said yes, he did. Anyway, he said, did you go down for an interview and talk to those people? And I said no. He says, why don't you do that? I said why? I was working at Battelle. Well, he said, you never know. I said yeah, I can go down and talk to him. I went down and interviewed. Went on back out. Still hadn't heard nothing from him and boss came by again and asked me about it. I said, don't know, just sat in there fat, dumb, and happy waiting for things to happen. And then his boss came down and he says Frank, you take that job if they offer it. And after three months, if you decide you don't like it, you come back and we'll put you right back where you're at. You won't lose no seniority or anything. Lo and behold, it was the beginnings of the university here in North Richland. And I came down here and they put me to work. Punched out construction and—helped punch out construction and get them out here. And got everything in operation and moved the staff in. And the rest is history. I left here in 1995, right at 30 years retirement. With military, I had more than enough time for—I think it was a year and a half. 27 and three-quarters or something like that years--and then of course I had five years of service to attach on so, retired with 30 years. Bauman: When you look back at your time looking at Hanford, overall how you assess Hanford as a place to work? Trent: Well compare that to where I came from, and it was a gold mine. Because we were hand-to-mouth. And we had to raise everything by hand or horses or whatever, and some cows, and raised all of our eats and stuff like that. So, we worked. We didn't have no spare time. From the time I was seven, I had a hoe in my hand working. And my brothers, the same way. Girls took care of the house, the boys took care of the outside. We had a pretty good sized garden. And we also had large acres of corn and beans, cornfield beans, potatoes, large patches of potatoes. So we have plenty to eat. Never did lack stuff to eat. But when you look at the lifestyle, and you didn't know where your next shoes was going to come from or your clothes, because money—cash money was hard to come by. And dad worked the coal mines, so he didn't make a lot, but enough to feed his family and keep going. So it was pretty nice to get out here where you can make a decent living. I think I was making--I think I was making about $75 a week, net out, when I first started. Bauman: When you first started working for GE or for--? Trent: With GE, yeah. And I also worked the 300 Area. And I helped start up the Sandcastle out here, Battelle where they're at now. The first buildings, there was three of them. And I was down there to get the equipment started and get it running. So I did that until the union got me and forced me out. So that was another reason it made my decision easier to leave there. I had four layoffs from Hanford due to cutbacks. And seniority, it didn't matter who you were or whatever. Seniority won. The other guy sat there and laughed at you and said I told you. You'll be out there working your tail off and he'll be sitting on his fanny reading or whatever. Doing his job, but nothing extra. You get a guy that would get in there and work, it didn't matter. If you didn't have the seniority, you were gone. So I got caught in four layoffs. No, three. The fourth one I quit and came down here. But it was a nice way to make a living. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and telling us about your experiences both in the Army and working at Hanford. Appreciate it. Trent: Same. Bauman: Thanks very much. Trent: You bet. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:19 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ca1950-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1950-?, ?-1995 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Y area 2 West 2 East T Plant U Plant T Plant 221-T 224-T 224 Building 100 Area B Area C Area D Area DR Area 200 Area Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Eggar, Dave Kennedy, John F Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Trent Description An account of the resource An interview with Frank Trent conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-02-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 224 Building B Plant Building 200 East Building 200 West C Reactor D and DR Reactors General Electric Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) SCRAM T Plant U Plant Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F634eff6a9b7e1a96710e2b8db34c897a.JPG 8f04c3d9db869862b8c052daad298c59 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb29d88f4fdd0a54ab37ae0ab13fc1325.mp4 2ab7a1d9b1c3cde0b5d45a67502f108c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Garrold Lyon Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Garrold Lyon on August 30, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Garrold about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full legal name for us? Gerrold Lyon: It’s Garrold, G-A-double-R-O-L-D. I use F as in Frank as an initial. And Lyon last name, spelled like the cat except a Y instead of an I. Franklin: So L-Y-O-N? Lyon: Yes, sir. Franklin: Great. So, Garrold, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. Lyon: Well, I was in service in Korea in ‘52 and ‘53. And I had two brothers out here when I got the release from active duty. Actually, I didn’t get a discharge until 1960. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: But I got released from active duty when I got home from Korea. Anyway, I had like brothers out here, so that’s why I come out here. Franklin: What brought your brothers out here? Lyon: Well, my older brother, he kind of worked in the fruit and stuff. But my younger brother, he’s nine years older than me, I come from a family of 13 and I’m the last boy. I have two sisters. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: But he was a tanker driver. I think he logged something like 2 million miles or whatever. Franklin: And did either of your brothers work out at Hanford? Lyon: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. And do you remember what year you came out here? Lyon: That was in ‘54. I come to work out at Hanford in ‘55 in March. Franklin: did you move out to Richland when you came to work at Hanford? Lyon: I did eventually, but at the time I got here, I think--anyway, I lived in my brother’s garage until I got a house. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What year did you move into Richland? Lyon: Well, it had to have been in ‘55, I guess. Franklin: Okay. So Richland was still a government-owned-- Lyon: Yes, right. Franklin: -town when you lived here. Lyon: Yes. I was patrol, and we patrolled Richland somewhat, too, you know. Franklin: And who did you come to work for? Lyon: GE. Franklin: What was it like living in--I wonder if you could describe living in Richland when it was managed by General Electric. Lyon: Well, I was impressed by the water running down the street. Didn’t seem to have any control, as far as watering your lawn or something like that. And then I think we had to pay for our electricity, but that was about the size of it, until they sold out the town. I could’ve went police force or stayed in the Area as a patrolman, which I did. I spent most of the time that I was with GE, I was a patrolman. And about ‘62, I think it was, I got the chance to get on as a utility operator. I had to pass just a test with the interviewer. I got experience as far as charge, discharge and everything-- Franklin: Sorry, I want to back up for a minute. What is a utility operator? Lyon: Utility operator is an understudy for a journeyman operator. Franklin: And what are you operating? Lyon: Well, actually, we would make metal for charge/discharge and we would actually charge it into the unit and as you charge in the unit, the exposed metal that they want drops out in the rear face and then into about 20 foot of water. Franklin: Just to clarify here, we’re talking about--the unit is the reactor? Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: And the charge/discharge is loading new fuel in and older fuel is coming out. Lyon: Right, right. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: Yeah, they had metal that they bring in and they make up the charge. The elevator is down on the floor and it goes clear to the top. So anyway you have a machine and you have like a carrier for one tube and you don’t carry it on your back; I forgot just how they did it. But they had them made up on poles, as far as they had a spacer there that they could only go so far back and then they’d shove the metal in and put a spacer on this side and cap it up. But you had a machine that charged it into the--you just-- Franklin: You mean that pushed the fuel and the spacers in? Lyon: yeah, as I recall, it had a cylinder that would push as you drop it over into it. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: Yeah, the charger that they had perfected enough they could use, anyway, at that time. Yeah. And it was a number of charges that when you go down with your unit, why, they would charge/discharge and then I guess they got a time to keep the unit where it’s activated they got to come up, you know, in a certain time. And the physicists, they figured that out, time-wise. Franklin: Right, they would be doing calculations to figure out which process tube to charge/discharge. Lyon: Right. Franklin: And how long did you do that work for? Lyon: Probably four years. And then I was on the supplemental crew and worked around the clock, you know, A, B, C, D. They were getting close to discharging there before I left. I figured that I better get out if I wanted to stay around. I had a chance to bid on radiation protection and which I got. And I spent 24 years as a radiation protection technologist. I took the national test for that, and passed it in ‘82. I had the book, but I got so rattled here thinking, I’m not going to get over there anyway, I left it in the truck out there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Lyon: But it does have my name in it. That’s the only book that I’ll probably ever have my name in. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So when you were working as a utility operator, which reactors did you work at? Lyon: I worked in most all of them. Because they would come--we were a crew that was coming in and helped the home team, if you will, for that particular reactor. We would do the work that they would normally have to do, I guess. But they always had help for charge/discharge, extra help. Franklin: How many men would it take to do a charge/discharge? Lyon: Well, I suppose two or three could do it. It would have to go in at different times and say--if they were going on charge/discharge, they would have to open the rear face, and they would have to take a monitor and probably three or four utility operators to actually do the work. And you had to suit up in rubber in the rear face. The dose rate was, most of the time, pretty high. You couldn’t--they’d burn you out before you got your job done, and they’d have to send somebody in to replace you. Franklin: How did they--what types of equipment did they use to monitor in the dose rate in the rear face? Lyon: Cutie pie. Franklin: Cutie pie. Did you wear personal dosimetry equipment as well? Lyon: yes, yes. Franklin: What kinds-- Lyon: Oh, it was your badge, and then they had, it’s a little piece of--I can’t describe it right now, but anyway they would run it through where they could expose it and tell about what I’d get. They’d have a source there that exposed, and then you would wear one on you when it was out here all the time, and you took it in the rear face, you just had it covered up so you wouldn’t get it contaminated, you know. Franklin: Yeah. So you said when you were in the rear face, you had to dress up, right? Lyon: Yeah, you had two pairs of whites and one rubber. Franklin: Wow. Could you describe the types of the whites and the rubbers? What types of clothing-- Lyon: Well, you’d put on kind of a white coverall, and they would tape your first pair of gloves on. Then you would put leggings over and tape them to the legs. But you had two pair of those. And your second pair, you’d have to tape your gloves and then you had a glove that was insoluble, if you will. Your first glove was kind of like a doctor’s glove or something, where you’d put them up and tape them. The main thing is you don’t want to come out of there all contaminated. So you’d put on about three pair and then you come out of the rear face and there’s a hamper there where you’d take your raingear off and drop it in there in the step-off pad. Then you’d take your first pair of whites off, and by the time you got the third step-off pad, well, you was pretty well down to your shorts and shirt. Franklin: I imagine all that clothing would be pretty uncomfortable to work in. Lyon: Well, the rear face, as I recall, there’s enough water there that it wasn’t too hot thermally. Franklin: Oh. Lyon: But you had to watch out if one of those slugs would accidentally hit the discharge and hit on the elevator, you’d have a few seconds to get out of there. Otherwise, you’d get a lethal dose. Franklin: Right, because those slugs would be screaming hot. Lyon: Yeah, maybe. Franklin: Radioactively like really, really hot. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: And I imagine that all of that clothing would kind of hurt your dexterity, too, right? Was it hard to move-- Lyon: I don’t remember being--we had wrenches that we had to open the back cap, if you will, and loose them, then you’d pull it out. And they would take the elevator up top before they discharged, of course, and let you out at the top, I believe. I’m not sure now. They may have let you out at the same level, but you had to get the elevator at the top before you started the process. You don’t want a whole lot of hot metal on the elevator. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah. Wow. Lyon: So they’d just drop over into the basin. Franklin: When they got pushed out. Lyon: When they got discharged, yes. Frankin: Was there ever a time where a slug got--you mentioned earlier--when it hit and got on the elevator, you’d only have a few seconds. Did that ever happen? Lyon: Not to my knowledge. Franklin: Okay. Were there any incidences that stand out, accidents or funny things or interesting things, when you were a utility operator? Lyon: Well, I remember the specialist, he would find maybe a spot that he would want to go in. I don’t quite understand why he would stop more or less just for one, but they called it a spline, and on the front, you could do that without your clothing, on the front face. They would run this spline, and as I understand, it was kind of an absorber if you will. I can’t think of the name right now. It would cool that spot that he wanted to. Boron, I think it was. But he would go in that rear face. I’m not clear, really, right now, how come he’d open that up. But it had to be done down where it wouldn’t come out. But I think we’d done that a few times. I remember going in there with him and he was kind of a character. When he went in the rear face--you’d have to wear a mask of course--and he’d have a cigar that he’d cut and put it in his mouth and chew that while he was in. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] What, so smoking a cigar while being in the-- Lyon: You don’t smoke it. He was chewing it. Franklin: Just chewing the cigar. Lyon: Mm-hmm. But he had a full mask and then he was all taped up and your mask is taped, too, so you won’t get any contamination. You have a hood over it. Franklin: Right. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: But he had a spot for the cigar. Lyon: No, he had it in his mouth chewing it. Just chewed it, yeah. Franklin: Interesting. Lyon: I can imagine me trying to chew a cigar for maybe a few minutes or whatever and swallow it. [LAUGHTER] Lyon: Oh, it was--anyway-- Franklin: That doesn’t sound like fun. Lyon: No. Franklin: Backing up a little bit, when you were a patrolman, what areas did you patrol? Lyon: I patrolled in all of them. I started out in B/C, but I was younger on the totem pole, and sometimes I would have to go into another area to relieve a man on vacation or something like that. But like I worked in K-E and K-W, H and F and D and DR, and B/C. I worked in all of them. Franklin: So you really got to go around the whole Site. Lyon: yeah. Franklin: Was there an area that was more difficult or better to patrol than the others? Lyon: I don’t think so. You had about the same routines. You had to patrol from the water facility--there was a tunnel there that goes from there underground over to the unit. One thing, there, in K area that was kind of amusing, especially for new men, they had a coffin and a dummy in it. But first time you seen it, you’re going through there with your flashlight and stuff, and there’s a coffin and stuff. You open it up and they get a good laugh when you get out of there. Franklin: Why was there a coffin? Lyon: I don’t’ know. It’s a prank, I guess. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: That was in K-E, I think it was, or K-W. Franklin: Wow. What was your uniform like as a patrolman? Lyon: Well, they were mainly like you would be on a civilian police force. I wore khakis in the summer, and it was kind of a Woolrich’s part in the winter. And you had a coat, of course, you know, for it. And a hat. Franklin: What kind of weapon did you carry? Lyon: A .38. .38 special, probably. Franklin: Any other interesting incidents that happened while you were on Patrol? Lyon: Well, in our cars, if I was on patrol on traffic or even on your fence car, you had a submachine gun and an M1 rifle in the trunk. And I had a shotgun right beside you there that would--you could unlock it as far as that, take it out. We’d get calls, mainly just for training. A captain would go out and give a location, and you had to see how quick--they clocked you and stuff when you answered to get to the stop that they wanted you to be there. Franklin: Cool. Let me go back to my questions here. And then after the reactors were shut down and you went-- Lyon: radiation protection. Franklin: Yeah, as an RPT, where did you work? Lyon: Well, I worked at D and DR, most of the time, probably. Franklin: Even after it shut down? Lyon: Yeah, you can--well, after it shut down, but--that was before it was shut down, particular--I don’t know, they hauled metal and of course kept security as far as that’s concerned. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: I can’t think of any incidents that happened there, really big, exciting, or anything. Franklin: Where else did you work as a radiation protection technician besides D and DR? Lyon: I worked over in 200 Area. They had kind of a decon thing going there and that was C Farm, I believe, in 200 West. We had pumps there--they had evaporators of course, that was trying to pump off the hotter tanks in the Tank Farm. And they would pump them out and then at a certain level they’d decide that that particular pump had to go. And they would physically go in there and they had to stretch out and they would put down paper and stuff to load that physically on that little boy. And they would kind of tape it up and everything to keep it from dripping. I know one particular one when I think it was B Farm, I’m not sure, but anyway you could track it with a GM from the time you left the gate clear down to the burial ground. We had some interesting work there to get that up and you know went in the burial ground. They tried to use road graders and stuff to get rid of it at first. They done stuff there that they had to go in, maybe, by men just to pick it up. You’d have to suit up to do that, of course. They maybe had to chip the asphalt where it would go down on the road from the evaporator to the burial grounds. Franklin: Oh, wow. Could you describe a typical work day? Lyon: Well, usually if you had a farm, why, you would suit up or you could--in one pair of whites, anyway, to go to the farm. You checked people out and you might have a crane come in to pull the cover off for, maybe PUREX was pumping stuff through there. And you’d have a crew there that would--operators and they would take care of whatever they was maybe wanting to flush or they could get back in operations and cover up the pit. I had one experience, I was at A Farm and we had a crew coming in to take filters from your stack, change them out, your HEPA filters. We would have a greenhouse there to get the people in there, and you had to wear a certain type of mask. Anyway, it was good for where you didn’t have air, fresh air. And you’d have it in a plastic kind of room, if you will. They would take the filter out and box it up and take it off and they’d put a new filter in. I remember getting--I didn’t have the masks with the chemical filter on it. And I tried to go in there and set the men up first. And what I remember, I got a real strong kind of a--anyway. Didn’t take your breath, but you were conscious of it, anyway. I asked the engineer about it, and he said, well, if you can stand it, it wouldn’t hurt you. So I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: If you can stand it, it won’t hurt you? Lyon: Well, I mean, without the mask, I got--it was like you’d maybe inhaled vinegar or something like that, you know? But that’s the only thing that I can remember that I was a little uneasy about, because I thought I probably got a good shot of contamination or--I do have asbestosis in my right lung. And I don’t know exactly where I got that, as far as that’s concerned. But down through the years, why, I helped to decon 222-S lab and we’d just go in there with a crew, like construction. They’d go in and take so much of a dose to clean up whatever they were trying to clean, and we would check them. We’d set dose rates for them to work and keep time. Usually they’d go in and maybe 50 was all they could take at the time. Franklin: 50--? Lyon: Mrem. Anyway, they had gamma pencils they would wear. And plus the badge. There was another badge that you could get, just for the job. We could read that ourselves rather than have to send it down to get it read. We used to ship out metal there that we’d load metal there from the pickup chutes to the storage area. They would out a bucket, say, of metal. They would have a railroad car come in, and you’d take them underwater back to where you could get it in there where you could put the lid on it, the lid was on the container under the water. Anyway, they had a crane there where you could lift it up and they would remove the lead from the train carrier and you’d use your hoist and go over and put it down in there, and they’d put lead on it and you’d have to smear it out after it got--well, when it was covered up, the radiation was pretty well stopped. But you didn’t want to send anything out that was contaminated, you know, going down the road, spreading your contamination where you went, railroad. Franklin: So you’re talking there about taking the fuel out of from underwater and loading them into the train car? Lyon: No, you’d take them out of the water, load them into a bucket-- Franklin: The cask? Lyon: Yeah, a cask, bucket. It’s approximately like this. It held, I think, 350 of the enriched, that’s slugs. And then your U-238, it’s a slug probably about like that. And the number was less because of space. But they shipped both of them. You didn’t pass anything over the enrichment with something that might react. Yeah. They had that pretty well figured out. We had pretty good supervision as far as that was concerned. The radiation protection was, well, you had authority to stop the job if you thought it was getting out of hand. Franklin: Did you ever have to do that? Lyon: I don’t remember any particular time, but we had, sometimes, especially with construction, they wanted to get the job done, sometimes they were reluctant to come out when their time was up. Franklin: Oh, you mean come out of a zone where they would be getting dose. Lyon: Yeah. As far as when you shipped those cans in the railroad car, well, they have enough metal or stuff that would stop anything from coming through the side to speak of anyway. And the lead would be--I think they had kind of a pressure--I mean, wrench that you could tighten up a bolt to the caps to hold them down. I don’t know how far those railroad cars went, as far as that’s concerned. I just--I personally loaded them and I don’t remember bringing them in. Most of their metal that they charged in was U-238, which you could handle with your hands, you know, before they put it into the unit. You had your enrichment in the core that would fission and start the process. Franklin: What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Lyon: Well, I worked at 233, and it was contaminated with alpha. We had to dress maybe two or three pair and come out the same way. You had to be careful, because it seemed like I had the pam, you know about that, that’s kind of just for an instrument--for alpha? And you’d have to check over them physically, you know, before they could come out and remove any clothing that was contaminated. If they were contaminated, you had to decon them. Franklin: What was the decon process like? Lyon: Well, they would send you to the shower, and if you could wash it off where it was nothing detectable with the pam, and your beta gamma, your GM, if those two contaminants, you didn’t detect on the person, well, you call them clean. If you couldn’t clean them, well, you send them downtown and they went through a process down there. Franklin: What about rewarding? What was the most rewarding aspect of your time at Hanford? Lyon: Well, I kind of liked it when I completed a job that was satisfactory. Believe it or not, I have had a few compliments anyway in my history of being a radiation monitor. I was a lead operator--lead monitor, rather--for probably about 12 years of my last years of service. I have relieved my supervisor when he went on vacation. That was in C Area. They were deconing kind of a silo, but it went down. We worked off of two-by-twelve, and they would try and decon the walls of the stuff there. I had a makeshift elevator that was like a two-by-twelve and they’d let you down, and you had a rope with a suit on in case you fell off of it, why, it wouldn’t let you go to the bottom. Franklin: Wow. Sorry. The bottom of what? Lyon: Well, it was kind of an inverted silo. Instead of going up, it was down. Franklin: Okay, got you. What are some of your memories of major events in the Tri-Cities’ history, such as plants shutting down or starting up? Lyon: I can’t remember any real problems. They had that pretty well--physicists figured out the time that they were coming up. When they were shutting down, they dropped the verticals and it would pull out part of your control rods. And when they’d put them in, rather, to shut down. Franklin: I guess the question is more orientated towards not the physical act of reactor shut down or startup, but when, in the late ‘60s, when the decision was made to actually permanently shut down and deactivate the reactors. I imagine, was that of concern in Richland and the community? Was there a worry about jobs? Lyon: I don’t think so. It seemed like they would lay off and then they would hire. I don’t know, it seemed like it was kind of up and down. Franklin: Yeah. When did you retire from Hanford? Lyon: I retired in ‘89 at 58. 58 years. I mean, I was 58 years old. Franklin: Years old, oh okay. So you retired, really, right when the production mission ended. Lyon: Yeah. Well, N Area was still running, and I think, maybe one of the Ks or both Ks ran for a while. But, like, B and C and D and DR and F, H, most of those were shut down. Franklin: Was there a big worry about when the Cold War ended about what would happen to Richland and Hanford? Lyon: I don’t know. I was looking for another job. And I found--I got on with radiation protection. So I had it there as long as I--had I wanted to stay, I could’ve stayed. But, in fact, I got called back when I was 80 years old to go out to HAMMER. I was changing irrigation, believe it or not, in the field, and the phone rang. The guy was on the phone, said he wanted to work out a salary or a number, anyway. And I’d checked with construction to see what they were paying. Anyway, I told him what I could get for construction, and it was more or less $33 an hour, with $3 going towards your insurance. And he said, well, how about $35? And I said, okay. But I got to thinking later, I could’ve probably got $40. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And what did you do at HAMMER? Lyon: In what? HAMMER? Franklin: What did you do at HAMMER? Lyon: Well, they have a mockup, you know, of like your hoods. It’s the next thing to being the actual thing, if you will. They got rooms there like where they have supposedly hot trash and hoods where they work in, too, in the labs. These are all clean, as far as that’s concerned. And you take people in there, make them dress up to a code, like they were actually going in and doing the job. And you go in and you give them a false reading, maybe. You know, because it’s clean. But you take your cutie pie in there and measure it and tell them like, it’s reading four or five rad or something like that. Anyway, you give them a talk-to first, and you try and impress them with the way they dress and the job that they’re doing. And then you take them through and let them do the job. And then you grade them. You can flunk them, or you can pass them. Franklin: So you were doing RPT training? Lyon: Yeah. Well, I was an RPT then. And I would just evaluate the people that come in. They have to pass a test, radiation, like a test for--to work out there. If they can’t pass that test, why, they have to give it another hitch, or else they probably have to move from their job. Franklin: What events or incidents happened at Hanford while you were working there that stand out to you? Lyon: Well, Dash-5 had their problem while I was out there. And they had a problem there at 222-S. They had contaminant in their pipe, their fresh air pipe became contaminated and some people got a dose there that they shouldn’t have. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: You can see the man on TV, I think, still show him. He could probably sit down and breathe on a GM or a pam or whatever and see the needle move by what he exhaled or whatever. Franklin: Do you remember the McCluskey incident? Lyon: That’s what I was talking about. Franklin: The Dash-5? Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Were you near there when that happened? Lyon: No. What I heard is there was a burial there and it had a drip, drip, and it got so much, why, it would go critical. I think he was right there when it did. Franklin: What about when--did you go to see JFK when he came to visit in 1963? Lyon: I did not. I don’t know whether I was on shift at the time. I worked around the clock a lot of the times. I’d be on graveyard for seven days and then I would have--well, from Friday morning until Wednesday afternoon off. And then I would work swing for seven days. And then I would have two days off, and go on graveyard. That’s the way it went. Franklin: Wow. What was it like living in Richland in the 1950s when it was still a government town? Lyon: Well, I didn’t have any problems. I was a patrolman as far as that’s concerned. I done my job. We would patrol Richland, as far as that’s concerned. I could’ve stayed, had I wanted to become a policeman. But-- Franklin: What type of housing did you live in? Lyon: I lived in a prefab, two-bedroom prefab on 1613 Mahan. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember any particular community events? Lyon: Any ex-what? Franklin: Any particular community events? Lyon: Well, the thing that I remember is the pump that they pulled from the evaporator, they didn’t have it wrapped up good so it contaminated quite a bit of area there that we ended up digging up a little bit of blacktop before we could get it all cleared. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: But I think mainly it was fairly quiet. Franklin: Sure. [COUGH] Oh, excuse me. Could you describe the ways in which secrecy and security at Hanford impacted your work? Lyon: Well, when I was on patrol, you was always looking for something that, maybe they had left out on their desk. You went through the offices and if you found something that should’ve been secured, why, you called them and they either come out and took care of it or else we took it up to headquarters and they wrote it up. That’s about all I know about security, as far as that’s concerned. People were responsible for what they were working with, and they weren’t supposed to leave it laying out so somebody could just come along and look at it. And I wouldn’t have any idea what a lot of that was about, as far as that’s concerned. Just maybe concerned with the work or, I don’t kind of a secret that they had there. You just had to be careful what you talked about. Franklin: Did people talk about what they did? When you’d meet them, and you knew they worked at Hanford? Or were people secretive about their jobs, or were you secretive about your job? Lyon: Yeah, physically, I’d talk to, especially people that I worked with, you know. Most people in Richland were connected some way there, first off, anyway. Franklin: Did you ever talk about your job to your family? Lyon: Huh? Franklin: Did you ever talk about your job to your family or friends? Lyon: Oh, probably to my wife, yeah. But I don’t think I divulged any classified material-- Franklin: Sure, sure. I wasn’t implying that. Lyon: Oh. Franklin: So you recently took a B Reactor tour, right? Lyon: Yes. Franklin: What was it like to take a tour to B Reactor now that it’s a museum? Lyon: Well, I sat down in the chair and got my picture taken by--I had some people out here, relatives. I think I may have sat in that chair once. I was by no means a reactor operator, but I have sat at the board a little bit. But under supervision. Because you don’t go in there and just start operating; you have to take it slow and--same way with charge/discharge. You have to get the knack, otherwise you won’t drop that metal in, you’ll be doing more damage to the metal than you should. Franklin: What does it mean to you that B Reactor is now a national park? Lyon: I think it’s nice. They got it all cleaned up and they can see. As far as the lecture, they could be a little bit more amplified sound or something in there where you could hear better. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s a-- Lyon: I’m a little hard of hearing anyway. Franklin: That’s a common piece of feedback we get. We’re still working on it. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: So my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Lyon: Well, it was some of the best money that I made, so I really looked at it as a good deal for me. The only thing I was trying to keep myself clean and not get polluted, you know? That’s about the size of it. I enjoyed the money. As far as that’s concerned, it was a decent place to work, I thought. I have two boys, and my youngest boy is going to retire the 20th of next month. He has 40 years as an electrician out there. He’s going to go to HAMMER, if you will, and teach electrical, maybe three to five days a week, when he retires. He’s talking about just--he gets a wage for that, and then they don’t--well, I guess they can give him insurance, too, if they want him bad enough. But he went through a training there in Yakima where they have the training for electricians and stuff. Then he come out here and--it’s Garry Lyon, and he’s 60. Franklin: Oh, wow. How do you--sorry, I guess I have one more question that I just kind of thought of. How do you feel about your work contributing to the growth of nuclear weapons and proliferation of nuclear weapons of the Cold War? Lyon: Well, I think we had to do it. I still think we’re--well, politics there--but one of them sold Russia some of our stockpile of whatever, you know, uranium, whatever. And they need that, I guess, if they’re going to make bombs. I don’t know whether they’re so advanced now that--it was bombs that we dropped. By the way, did they have--I thought that was a Fat Man and a thin man, but there was a woman here the other day, said it was a Fat Man and a Little Boy. Franklin: That--yes, there was, apparently--it’s Fat Man and Little Boy. There was a Thin Man, which was a developmental plutonium gun weapon, but it didn’t work. Lyon: Oh, I see. Franklin: So they went with--because the uranium was a gun-type bomb. Adn then Fat Man was the plutonium implosion bomb. So there was a little bit--but it was just a development, and it never saw the light of day. Lyon: I see. Well, I disputed her a little bit. I said, I thought it was a Fat Man and a Thin Man, and I’d never heard about the Little Boy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They’re all kind of funny names for the weapons. Well, Garrold, thank you so much for taking the time to come and interview with us today. Lyon: Okay. I have one more boy out there that, he’s an engineer for, well, trying to do the solidification, you know? Franklin: The vitrification. Lyon: Yeah. And he’s 62. Franklin: Wow. You’re kind of a Hanford family. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Well, that’s great. Well, Garrold, thank you for taking the time to come in and interview with us. Lyon: You bet. Franklin: Okay. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:55:46 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9986 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Patrol A Farm D DR K-E K-W C Farm B Farm 200 Area 200 West 222-S lab HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Garrold Lyon Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Garrold Lyon talks about his time working in Hanford Patrol and at various reactor sites and tank farms. He talks about his sons that still work at Hanford. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08/30/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff96ed6d9b3f0ce6bd6cac0d4aaa1b68f.jpg f07992e68b76fec2ccb1dee1159c9259 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2993555fabccb3996c2c716b3c2b2580.mp4 5c76e733231da3ee30aa1272ed65b597 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Boothe Description An account of the resource An interview with Gary Boothe conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd3a31e8f531859f8cf4173f7e777e4cc.jpg 2a38262e6623571282c597a9daca931b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c6061bb308050f0219a8db9b6ffcf03.mp4 98f9b422199605caf34957b60917b70d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Petersen, Gary Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Petersen_Gary Gary Petersen: Sure. This is easy. Robert Bauman: All right, let’s see. Petersen: Hair's combed, eyebrows are trimmed. Man One: Yeah, you sure do look pretty. Petersen: Actually I'd rather watch her than— [LAUGHTER] Petersen: Is that-- Bauman: Unfortunately, you're supposed to look at me, actually. Petersen: Oh. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Yeah, I’m sure. All right. Does that work there, on the mic? Woman One: Mm-hmm. Bauman: It’s okay? Man Two: Mm-hmm. Bauman: Okay. Man One: We can start whenever you’re ready. Bauman: All right. All set to go? Woman one: All set. Bauman: Excellent. All right. Well, Gary, I think we're ready to go. Petersen: Fire away. Bauman: All right. Well, let's start first by having you say your name and then spell it. Petersen: Okay. It's Gary Peterson G-A-R-Y P-E-T-E-R-S-E-N. That's important, the E. Bauman: Yes. You're right. My name's Robert Bauman and today's date is June 5th of 2014. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Gary, let's start with the beginning of your time here. Can you tell us about when you came to Hanford and Tri-Cities, what brought you here? Petersen: Well, that's a good question. [LAUGHTER] Okay. Actually, I came first in 1960, January, 1960, with the Nike Ajax Missile site at the top of Rattlesnake Mountain. And I was temporarily assigned up there--well I was assigned up there, but three times a day we'd get on the back of a two and a half ton truck and go down to the mess hall down below. And I knew I was going to die, so I asked be transferred to any place and I got sent to Korea. I said never come back to the Tri-Cities, but as you can see, I did. The second time, though, is probably the one you're after. I decided after the military that I needed to get an education, so I went to Washington State University and got a Communications degree with a minor in Electrical Engineering. I had a job with Ford Motor Company all lined up, but I wasn't too enthused about going to Detroit. That was January of 1965. And so my college professor, Chuck Cole said, gee, there's a new company opening up in Tri-Cities. Why don't you stop by? So I stopped by on a Friday, went to work on Monday with Battelle, which became Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So there's how I got here. Bauman: So, that first time, in 1960, why did you want to transfer? Was it the ride down the mountain? Petersen: Three times a day with an 18-year-old driving, and you drop 2,000 feet, and at the bottom there's a 90 degree corner, 16 degree grade, and it was January. I knew that one of these was going to go off the road. So I said I've got to get out of here. So I put in request for transfer, and I transferred. Just like that. To Korea. Bauman: Right. During the first time here in 1960, did you spend any time in town? Petersen: We did, much different than--actually most of the servicemen, and there were quite a few of us at the four batteries, would go to--there was a bowling alley and a dance hall over in Kennewick, just off of Clearwater that was surrounded by fruit trees. Now all of that's gone and it's all businesses and so on. Clearwater's full, but at that time, it was all orchards. It was pretty nice. Bauman: What were your impressions of the place, other than not liking that ride down the mountain? Petersen: Well, you have to remember it was about like probably what the first military people saw when they came by here in December, January of 1943. I mean it was cold, it was brown. No trees. It was a barren place, even in 1959. So I can imagine what Colonel Mathias thought when first flew over this place. From the top of Rattlesnake, as you can imagine, you saw the entire Hanford site, so it was pretty barren and bleak. Bauman: Going back a little farther, where had you lived before this? Where did you grow up? Petersen: I graduated from Womack High School, which is up the Okanagan. I lived on an apple orchard. Again I was used to being around trees, and you come to the desert--I can imagine, any time between 1943 and 1959, ‘60, ‘61, ‘62, this was a pretty barren place. Bauman: And so in 1965, you took the job up at Battelle. Petersen: Yep. Bauman: What was the job? Petersen: The job to start with was a communications person. I became the manager of the news of service. The advantage I had was I got everywhere on the Hanford site, except the tank farms. I've stayed away from the tank farms successfully for a lot of years. But I spent a lot of time out on the hundred F reactor, which was the biology and aquatic biology site at the time. I got all over the site, including back up to the top of Rattlesnake Mountain a couple of times. So it was really pretty nice. Bauman: When you came back then, in '65, where did you live? Petersen: Lived originally in what were called the stilt apartments. They're on Jadwin. They've been fixed up since, so you would never know that they were stilt. Stilt, meaning that they actually had posts that held up the second floor. The posts were the garage for the people who lived there. But they're not far from the Chevron station, kind of in North Richland. Lived there for quite a while. And then the last of the homes that were built prior to 1958 went for sale. Those were called the Richland Village Homes. And there were two-bedroom and three-bedroom, either one-car garage attached or unattached. And they went up for sale for—I bought one—three-bedroom with a single car garage attached—for $6,200. Pretty good buy at the time, and I ended up paying less than I was for rent in the stilt apartments. I thought was pretty good deal. Bauman: What was the community of Richland like at the time in the mid-1960s? Petersen: The community was still just finding its way out of what I call the federal government ownership. In 1958, the city became an incorporated city again. And it was 1958 that the federal government to city back over to itself. And so between '58 and '65, it was a city that was still trying to find its way as a city, other than as a federal funded city. It was unique in that aspect. Battelle was well the first companies, too, to come in here—although it had a government contract, it was one of the few to come in here and be from the outside. Man, up until that point it was DuPont and then General Electric and then in 1965 is when the AEC decided to diversify the Hanford contract. They split it up into eight pieces, and so Battelle was one of those pieces. The others were HEHF and the operations and so on. There's been 35 contractors in here since 1965, and Battelle was one of the early ones. Bauman: Now, before your first arrival here in the 1960, the Ajax site, were you familiar with Hanford? Did you know what sort of work that was going on in Hanford? Petersen: Well, I did only because I spent some time up at Fairchild Air Force Base. They also had a Nike Ajax missile site. They were trying to transfer some people from Fairchild to Hanford. And so I learned a little bit about what Hanford was. The nice thing at the time is everybody--all the military guys said, oh, you're going to love the Tri-Cities because it's way warmer than Spokane. So I thought, sure, and then you come down in January and it was cold, at the top Rattlesnake you get winds up to a hundred miles an hour. It was not one of your pleasure spots at the time, but the view was great. View was great. Bauman: So, you knew something about Hanford at that point. Petersen: Knew that it was a military installation, federal installation. Knew that they made the material for the atomic bomb. Knew that there was a reason for the Nike Ajax missile site to be there, to protect the site. So, yes, that much we were pretty clear on, and the military took their job very seriously. There was a no fly zone over Hanford. No commercial flights, no flights of any kind other than military itself. It was pretty well protected. And on top of Rattlesnake, I might just add, that was the radar installation. It was at the highest point, so the radar reached a long way. You could see planes coming well, well in advance of them ever getting through to Hanford. What was interesting is sometimes we would notify Fairchild or McChord, and you'd actually have fighter jets intercept planes that wouldn't veer off. That was a unique feature of what you did on top of the mountain. The other sites, they had radar installations, but that one was pretty unique. That was pretty good. Bauman: Yeah. So in 1965 when you came and were working in communications, what sort of responsibilities did you have there? Petersen: Well, one of the assignments that was unique was to take tours to indoctrinate all new staff members, and that was for everywhere on the site. Over the years, I've taken literally thousands of people on tours over the site. At the time, it didn't seem like it was that great of a job to be able to take people around the site, explain what the reactors were, what the 100 Area, 200 Area, 300 Area, those kind of things. But as it turned out, the longer I did it the more I realized that the work that was going on here was critical. The Cold War, was still fairly active, so it became important to me to make sure that people understood what kinds of things went on here. It wasn't until later that I became interested in what happened pre-1943. As you keep tromping across the land, you start saying, oh, there were other things here too. But it was pretty good. Bauman: Those site tours for new employees, were they able to go pretty much everywhere on site? Petersen: We could go everywhere except into the area that had the plutonium, which is now known as the Plutonium Finishing Plant. Where there was restricted classified, the real concern was both tritium and plutonium. You couldn’t say the word tritium back in those days. You could plutonium, because they knew it was the material for the plutonium bomb, Fat Man, came from here. But tritium was something nobody talked about. And so those areas were restricted and that was mostly in the tank farm area. That was were chemical separations took place, so we stay away from those. It was okay by me. Bauman: Well, that does raise—obviously, security, safety were very important at Hanford. In what ways did security at Hanford impact your job? That's obviously one way. There's certain areas you couldn't go, right? Petersen: There were replaces you couldn't go. The badges--all of the badges at that time were designated to which areas you could or couldn't go. It was readily identifiable on your badge whether you were allowed into say, the 300 Area or the 100 Areas with reactors, or the 200 Area. And within them there were other exclusion zones, too. There were restrictions placed in each of those locations. Typically somebody that worked in 100 Area wouldn't ever be allowed into the 300 Area, or into the 200 Areas. The reactor areas were the 100 Area, the 300 Area was the research area, and the 200 Area was chemical separation. They were pretty segregated as to where you could go. Bauman: In communications you mentioned that you couldn't say the word tritium. Were there other things you couldn't talk about or write about? Petersen: You couldn't talk about quantities. As a matter of fact, there was a real restriction early on. One of the things that I found in the process of working in communication, there were nine production reactors around the Columbia River on the horn. In the summertime in particular there were periods where all nine reactors would be working. Sounds unique when you think about it today, but in the summertime June, July, August they actually measured the temperature of the Columbia River before the first reactor and after the last reactor. As I recall, if the Columbia River temperature was raised by close to ten degrees, then they would have to start shutting down the reactors, because the flow back into the Columbia River was that warm coming from reactor. In order to protect the fish and things in the river, then they really monitored the river very carefully. The reason I point that out is you also never talked about how much water went through those reactors because there was a fear that the Soviet Union could figure out the quantities of production simply by measuring the amount of water that went through those reactors, or the temperature increase from one point to another. It sounds odd today, but that was one of the strictures of what you could and couldn't talk about. It was a pretty quick--they were very careful about quantities. Bauman: And I assume that you had to, when you were hired, had to go through security clearance process--? Petersen: Q clearances were standard. There was one level above that that was called CRYPTO for a while. I don't know what happened on those, but that was for individuals who got around most of the site. They were a unique feature at that time. Bauman: Where was your office located? Where did you work out of? Petersen: Well my office moved all over. Originally it was in the old army headquarters—and this is in 1965. Battelle, when they first came in here, moved into a building that was called 3201. Later they changed it to the old office building—OSB was what it was called, old office building. But that was before the Battelle buildings were built, which became known as the Sand Castle. We lived and worked from January of 1965 until probably the spring of '66 before we moved into the new Battelle-owned buildings, the Sand Castle, which are on Battelle Boulevard now. And then later I moved out into the 300 area. I was in and out of 100F area. Those kind of places. So, yeah. How we doing? Bauman: You knew the site well. Petersen: Well, except for the 200 Area. That was a real restricted area, and maintained that for quite a number of years. Bauman: You talked about giving tours to new employees, sort of the indoctrination to the site. How about for dignitaries, government officials, did you do that? How about the general public? Petersen: The general public rarely, if never, I don't think we ever did that, but government official Catherine May was the first congresswoman I took through. She was a congresswoman from 8th District. I took Senator Magnuson through. Later Tom Foley, so quite a number of those over the years. In later years we started getting some foreign visitors, as well. But early years congressional officers, congressional staff, the governor. Dan—Governor—the name just few out of my head. The governor of the State of Washington, Dan--? Bauman: Evans. Petersen: Evans. Thank you. He later became also a senator from the state. He was a first governor that I helped escort across the site. Most of those, it was unique to be able to take visitors like that around the area. Bauman: Do any of those tours especially stand out? Were any officials particularly interested or excited about it? Are there any sort of strange stories from that? Petersen: [LAUGHTER] Well, Senator Magnuson was a unique individual. He actually came out quite a number of times. And one of those times we were in the 300 Area, and I was working at the time for Westinghouse, Westinghouse Hanford Company. He came out to actually, quote, break the ground on FFTF. We were in a building at the time, a four story office building in the 300 Area, and I'll never forget, I was assigned to make sure he got up to the podium. His vehicle came in front the building, and then drove around to the back of the building, so I ran back and met Magnuson back there. I'd known him before. Frankly, honestly, he was drunk as a skunk. I didn't think he was going to be able to make it. He says, just get me to the podium and I'll be fine. I didn't think it was possible. But he got up, he gave an excellent speech. A little wobbly, but I don't think most people knew that he had been drinking. This was 4:00 in the afternoon or so, and then he left. I might point out, it was about a year later, 1971, that President Nixon came out. There was quite a scramble, because at that time there were no buildings for Westinghouse. Westinghouse was kind of spread all over, so when the advance team for Nixon came out, they decided that the proper place would be the Battelle buildings. This sounds odd, but there was a real infighting between, at that time, Atomic Energy Commission, Westinghouse Hanford Company, and Battelle over what signs would be displayed where. Because Westinghouse was interested in making sure—this was for FFTF, and that was a Westinghouse project. On the front of the podium, of course, was the President's seal. He spoke out in front of the buildings, but behind that—or around that, Westinghouse came in the night before and put up Westinghouse circle W signs around the site. Just an example of my boss at the time, who was one of the vice presidents, said I don't care how you do it, but I want to sign that says Battelle that they can't take down and will be located visibly for all the cameras. So we stole a door off of one of the rooms in the Battelle building. I don't know if you've been the buildings or not, but they're very tall doors. They're nine-foot-tall doors. So we actually, that night, took one of the doors off, put Battelle on it, and put it up on the front of the building up high so it was right behind the podium. Westinghouse--we had to do that after midnight. That door actually was at the entrance to Battelle for—I don’t know—the next 20 years. They finally took it down not long ago. But that was relative to President Nixon showing up. That was pretty good. Bauman: Stealing and moving doors. Petersen: Well, everybody wanted their name and with the President of the United States, and so that's what we did. Bauman: Did you get the chance to meet him when he came? Petersen: I did. One of the things I still—my family still values—is Pat Nixon was along with him. My oldest daughter was one year old, and because of what I was doing, we managed to get my wife and daughter into what was called the VIP area of the presentation and so on. She didn't get to shake hands with President Nixon, but Pat Nixon came by and actually held my daughter for a brief minute. We got a picture of it and it is still on the family someplace. Bauman: How about foreign dignitaries were there any-- Petersen: Foreign dignitaries, those came later, too, after the SALT agreements. On the signing of the SALT agreements, there was real concern both on the part of Russia, Soviet Union, and the United States for how much materials were still being made or not made. There were a number of Russian visitors who came over to verify which reactors were still operating, which ones weren't, how much material was still going through the canyon facilities, those kind of things. We started for the first time, seeing some of the senior Russian officials come through. The one that still strikes me and my memory is Admiral Sarkisov. He was head of the Russian Navy, and he came out both to see at that point the start of the reactor vessels from the submarines. Today, we have about 124 submarine and cruiser missile reactor cores out on site, but at that point I want to say we probably only had eight or ten, maybe 11, 12, something like that. But he also wanted to see those and verify that the submarines had actually been decommissioned, cut up, and so on. We toured both the reactor areas and the submarine vessel area. Of course, that's where my story about FMEF comes from, too. There was a building out there that was built for FFTF called FMEF, Fuel Material Examination Facility. On the way out to the site, Admiral Sarkisov asked, what is in that building. I told him it was a shut down building. We went out and toured the site. We toured the top of Rattlesnake Mountain with him, too, which was pretty unique. But we toured the site and coming back in, he asked if he could see that building, inside the building. So I called security. It was a closed building—it was locked up. And so they met in they let us in. As we came out, Admiral Sarkisov says, well now I can move the satellite. I asked what he was talking about. And he said, well, we've been watching that building since it was completed, and we couldn't believe the United States would build a building of that size, that massive size, and then not use it. So we knew that was connected underground some other place, because we never saw any cars come. So the Russians actually thought that that building was so secret that they had an underground entrance that came from someplace else. But he saw it was simply not used. And it is unique building. It's a billion dollar building. Bauman: That's a great story. When you were giving the tour with him, was there an interpreter present when he was-- Petersen: There was always an interpreter. As a matter of fact, one from both State Department for us, for the people who were the escorts, and then he had his interpreters, too, so there was both. The group was probably ten people or so: site manager, and then others of that--there was people from state--you didn't let them wander around by themselves. Pretty unique. Bauman: Well, you said you've been connected to Hanford since 1965-- Petersen: Mm-hm. Bauman: I'm sure you’ve-- Petersen: Almost 50 years. Bauman: --been privy to a lot of interesting events and stories. So I’m going to ask you to tell me some of those, but there's one in particular I know, and that's the alligator story. Petersen: Yeah, the alligator story is good. Bauman: All right, you can talk about that. Petersen: The alligator’s pretty unique. The aquatic biology was located in 100-F Area. That's the last reactor in the downstream flow of the Columbia. So they studied the impacts of the reactors on fish, miniature swine, beagle dogs, they had African pygmy goats, but one of them—Merc Gillis was a doctor of veterinary medicine—graduate of WSU, I might add. He said that he wanted to study the uptake of strontium-90 in a thick skinned animal, because strontium is bone seeker or thick skin. So he convinced the manager of the site, of biology site, that we ought to buy some alligators. The story varies depending on who you're talking to. Bill Bair will give you one side of the story, because he was one of the managers out there. I'll give you another one. But I know for a fact at least six alligators were purchased for the studio strontium-90 uptake. Bill Bair says there were more, but I still wonder about that because I was in and out of there a lot. But these alligators were about two and a half feet long and they put them in a retention pen in the Columbia River, but it was also where the effluent from the F Reactor came back. The water would pass through the reactor, put into retention basin for a short period, and then put back in the river, so it was warmer than the river. That's part of the point. It also was the first place where the water returned to the river, so that was where the strontium would be taken up by the alligators. That's the theory. Well, two months, three months after they put the alligators into this retention pond, there was a big storm. The pen came down and all six alligators got out. This was under the AEC at the time, too—they managed to catch five, but they missed one. It was months later that a fisherman over in Ringgold, downstream, fishing caught this last alligator. Of course, he was trying to tell friends about it, and on and on. But, he had to protect the proof, so he took to a taxidermist office in Pasco and had the thing stuffed. Well, one of the technicians from aquatic biology was walking by the taxidermist shop, saw this stuffed alligator. So he ran in, grabbed the alligator, and ran out, which now makes it more or less of a public story. This was in 1963, before I got here. But the story comes around. Anyway, AEC tried to bury that story. No, we've never had an alligator out there. We don't know anything about alligators. They actually, I think, had it classified for quite some time. But when I got here in '65, my boss was a guy named George Dalen and I had been here for about a year. He says, it's time to give the alligator back. I had no idea what he was talking about, but this is where I entered the story. So he pulls out this stuffed alligator about like this, and he said it was, I think the guy's name was Aaron, he said track him down, because he was the fisherman. He paid to have it stuffed, and we're going to give the alligator back. We'll just let the story go away. So I did. I found the man. Unfortunately, the Tri-City Herald ran a story about this big about the alligator, and once every eight or ten years, they use one of these clips when they do the previous in history. DOE came in and they claimed to know nothing about any alligators, ever, ever, ever. It was in the technical library that they finally found the documents that showed not only did they have alligators, but the other five, they moved from 100-F when they had a fire out there, down to the 300 Area where life sciences built a new building. So I know that there were six alligators, five, one stuffed, and Bill Bair says that there were a few more than that, but I don't know that. That's the alligator story. Better told over beer, I might add, but not bad. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Are there any other stories during your time at Hanford--incidents, events, things that you were involved in in your job [INAUDIBLE]? Petersen: The biggest one is one that I think this community has forgotten completely, and that's Apollo 11. Apollo 11 was the first lunar landing. When Apollo 11 came back to the moon and splashed down in the Pacific, it turned out that in 329 Building, there was a room that was used for very low level radiation detection. It was a room made of pre-World War II battleship steel. It was used for a lot of reasons for measuring very small quantities of radiation. Battelle actually put in a bid with NASA to study some of the first lunar materials that came back. So they had splash down in the Pacific, and we had a man named Dr. Lou Rancitelli, who actually waited in Houston for those materials to be flown from the Pacific, off of the aircraft carrier, back to Houston. He had a briefcase—big briefcase—chained to his wrist, where he brought those back through Seattle and then to the Hanford site. He arrived here about one in the morning, I might add. There were only a few people--Doctor Perkins, myself, a couple of others, who were waiting. We kept this all secret, because we weren't supposed to tell news media or anybody else that this was going on. But Lou got the materials back, and the next day we started petitioning NASA to allow us to display those moon rocks here in this community. The second place in the whole world that moon rocks were displayed was the Federal Building here in Richland. We managed to display them for three days, and there were lines four abreast around the federal building to look at those rocks. They'd go by and ooh and aah because it came from the moon. But almost to a person, everybody says, looks just about exactly like what we see out here in the desert. You couldn't tell them apart. But the fact that we had those lunar materials, I mean that was--wherever you were, you watched TV of the landing on the moon in 1969. That was a huge event. It was after that that Nixon came to town, but hardly anybody recalls that at all. It's just a forgotten piece of history, but at the time, it was pretty big. It was almost--and I missed it—it was almost like when President Kennedy came out to dedicate the Hanford Generating Project attached to N reactor, and that happened in 1963, just before I got here. Big events. Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. Any other happenings or stories that stand out in your mind? Petersen: I wasn't a part of what was called the Green Run. Others will have to tell you about the Green Run. But one of the stories I covered, and that's one of the only ones that I was out near the tank farms. Atmospheric sciences is out between the 200 East and 200 West. It has a 300-foot-tall atmospheric tower at that site. They've all been removed today, but going downwind from that 300-foot-tall tower were, number one, four or five 200-foot-tall towers and then five or six or seven 100-foot-tall towers. They would regularly release very small quantities of radioactive iodine, most usually put into colored smoke so they could track both the visual as well as radiation and see how long it took to go downwind and disperse. Just to show you how we were at the time, the photographer and I who were covering that piece as a story thought, well not only did we want to shoot it so you can see it go, but get underneath it so you could watch it as it--It's not a very smart thing to do today, but at the time it seemed like a pretty good idea to be able to watch that stuff as it drifted and deposited. So, we did the story. AEC never let us release it, but we kept the story internally for quite a number of years. I don't know what happened to it now, but those kind of things went on fairly often. You need to know where radiation goes, and that was a piece of it. Bauman: Do you know roughly the time period that would have been? Petersen: Well, it would have been probably '68 or '69, someplace in there. There has been more study on the Hanford site--atmospheric studies, geologic studies, temperature swings, those kind of things, than almost anywhere in the United States. They really tracked how the weather changed, how the wind moved, what the ground flow is from rain, those kind of things. It was--going to atmospheric physics lab in the 200 Area was an experience. At one point I managed to take a TV crew up, because if you climb a 300-foot-tall tower in the middle of Hanford, you could see just about everything. It turned out that we got the film crew up, they took the pictures, and then security looked at the pictures and said you have pictures of classified areas within those pictures, so they took a whole video. All of the climbing up and down was for naught. So, a pretty good place. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that when you first came and started giving tours, you really didn't know much about pre-'43 events. Petersen: True. Bauman: When did you become more aware the communities that were out there and start learning more about that? Petersen: I had the real fortunate opportunity to meet Bill Rickard, and I hope you've interviewed him. Bill is a gentleman of the first order, but Bill has probably walked that site more than any single person. One of the early things—I got acquainted with Bill. Bill ended up taking me on walks across parts of Hanford. The first time that he took me out was to Rattlesnake Springs, which is up a gully on the face of Rattlesnake Mountain. It's just an experience to go with Bill, and that was mostly on—we call a bugs and bunnies--but it was mostly what was all of nature that's out there: deer, elk, coyotes, even fish and so on. But Bill knows that site probably better than any other single person. So every chance I ever got to go out with Bill, anywhere, that's where you first got the sense that there was something here pre-1943. That's when I first saw the irrigation piping. That's where you first saw the home site--we've had two major fires across that site, and both of them ended up and taking out things and were still left. There was a home up by a Rattlesnake Springs that actually still had furniture in it. It was burned down in the first fire. So Bill knew all that stuff, and so the experience of going out with Bill was really unique. I wouldn't trade it for anything. That's where I started thinking, well—actually, Bill led me to a person named Annette--I can't think of it. Bauman: Heriford? Petersen: Heriford. Annette is the one who—she was in the class that would have graduated from Hanford High School out there on site. She worked for Battelle, PNL at the time. I got real acquainted with Annette, and then I helped Annette have the first reunion of her class out at that old Hanford School and that would have been, my gosh, maybe '78 or so. 1977, '78. And Annette could tell stories about what the old Hanford town was like and White Bluffs, and how rich and agricultural area it was. She was an amazing lady. It's too bad that she passed away quite some time ago. She was a real historian. You talk to those, and all of a sudden it becomes real. She's the first one that I talked to, not Bill Rickard, but Annette Heriford that that explained that some of the people had less than two weeks' notice to move off that site. You think about it and you say, that's just not possible. But it happened. Then you start feeling for the people who—there were roughly 2,000—the numbers change, depending again on who you talk to. The one on one side, the federal side, says there's only 1,500 people out there. But if you look at the historical records, you know that there were probably about 2,100—kids and the whole works. Some of the early census didn't include some of the children, or the sheep herders that moved back and forth across the site. In talking with Annette, you finally got the feeling that was something else here that happened before 1943. That's what got my attention. Good that you know her name, too. Bauman: Yeah. Why did you think that was important, then, for people to know about? Petersen: It was probably a little later than that that I also became acquainted with some of the Native Americans. I've got to know some of those over time, too. The relationship of the people who lived out there, both with Native Americans and the site—I’ll change directions for a minute, too. My family at that point lived in Wenatchee, so when I first came in 1965, in order to get to Wenatchee from here, you had two choices. You'd either go around through Pasco and up through Moses Lake and back, or you could go out to Vernita where there was a ferry, part time, and it didn't work at night. You'd ride the ferry and go across. That was prior to the bridge being built and so on. As you go out there, and see the ferry, you'd also see the structure that now I know is Bruggemann Warehouse, and you'd meet some of the people who were either former residents or Native Americans. Then you stopped and you waited for the ferry. You got a chance to talk to some of the people as you went back and forth. There was a lot of discussion about what was this site prior to. But growing from Vernita to Vantage that was pre-Mattawa days. Now I can visualize what Hanford must have been, because Hanford was an agricultural area, prior to—it looked like Mattawa today does. When I first started driving up there, there were no orchards between Vernita and Vantage. Now you look, there's orchards and vineyards and all kinds of stuff at Mattawa. Hanford was that, but it was that before 1943. You have to visualize what it was like, and it was amazing. Hanford really has a perfect weather pattern for early produce, and it was one of the first in the state to produce and all kinds of things--peaches and pears and cherries and walnuts, all kinds of stuff. How we doing? These guys need a break. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: You started in '65. You're now at TRIDEC. At what point did you move to TRIDEC? I know you worked also at Westinghouse and [INAUDIBLE]. Petersen: My wife kids around and says I can't hold a job. That's the point. I typically work for a company for about seven years and then move companies. So I worked for Battelle for a while, then Westinghouse for a while, then what was called WPPSS, Washington Public Power Supply System for a while. But I retired from Battelle in 2002, and the Hanford manager for the site was Sam Volpentest. Sam was 99 years old at the time, and his doctor, who's also my doctor ended up saying, Sam you can't fly to Washington, DC anymore and go after money. I'd known Sam since '65, I met him in '65, and Sam called and said, Gary, I know you retired, but would you come back to work part time, ten hours a week, easy job go to Washington, DC for me and that's it. He had the nerve to die at 101. He lived for about a year after he hired me to do those trips. And when he passed on, as a result TRIDEC at the time said, well, we need somebody full time to do this. I wasn't real interested, so they said we'll make it part time job. You only have to work 25, 30 hours a week. It hasn't been that since. Away we go. It's nice because if they want to fire me, I'd love it. I'll go and play golf. It's a good deal. Bauman: Can you talk about Sam Volpentest a little bit? Obviously, a very important figure through most of the Tri-Cities. Can you talk about his significance a little bit? Petersen: Would be happy to. Sam was an incredible politician. He never ran for office that I know of, but he knew politics from the top to the bottom. He was friends with everybody from Governor Rosellini to Senator Magnuson, Senator Jackson, Speaker of the House, Tom Foley. He knew politics. If you read the book so that was just written about Sam, it has a lot of facts, but until you knew Sam--and I was fortunate. Another part of my assignment, when I first got here in '65, TRIDEC was called TRICNIC. So it had a different name. It was Tri-City Nuclear Industrial Council. And Sam was not a writer. As a matter of fact, everything he did was longhand, very pretty penmanship, but he couldn't put things down on a typewriter for taking to Washington, DC and so on. Battelle, one of their offers to the community was to provide somebody who could write to Sam to write their newsletters, to write their congressional letters, to write things. I got to know Sam when he was in a little office on the Parkway. Later he moved into the Hanford house. Sam was a mover. Most of the ideas that Sam accomplished didn't start with Sam, but he would hear an idea and he'd say, that sounds good. We're going to do that. For example, he started TRICNIC/TRIDEC in 1963. In 1963—you've got to go back in time—every road in and out of the community was two lanes. There was one airline only at the time, and Sam knew that in 1963 the government, AEC, was starting to shut down the reactors. Sam and Glen Lee and Bob Philip formed TRICNIC and they did that to try and offset, with federal dollars, the coming shut down of the production mission at Hanford. In the process, they also determined that in order to develop a community long range, you had to have transportation. Even though most people think that Sam concentrated on Hanford, he actually--and Glen Lee and Bob Philip—all really focused on how do we make the Tri-Cities bigger and better than it is? Four-lane highway was first, but airlines were second, and the third one that really was not well-known at all was education. And they went after a Center for Graduate Study for this community, which became WSU Tri-Cities. They decided that you had all of this intellectual property at the laboratory at Hanford, but you needed something for their families. I don't think it was a sit down and let's do a vision and do all these things. I think it came in pieces, where they actually decided they wanted certain things. Sometimes the fallout was better than what they expected. As an example, the breeder reactor program, which started in 1968, '69, was going to be a major, major new AEC mission. Sam went after the breeder reactor program, and he didn't get it. Savannah River did, what was called Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But he got the secondary issue, which was FFTF, which is a small test reactor that led to. As it turns out, over time the administration killed the Clinch River Breeder Reactor, but they kept FFTF going. Or, another example is we lost out on a mission that Sam really wanted that I think was called SMEVs—and maybe I'll explain it, but maybe not. And we lost that one, too, and so Sam went to Magnuson and said, we need something. Give us something. A couple days later, the story goes, Magnuson called up and said well we had a federal building planned for Montana or Wyoming or something, but they really don't want it. How about we put a federal building in the Tri-Cities. That's how this Federal Building came about. That was Sam. Sam was tenacious. He either liked you, or he didn't like you. There were people he wouldn't let in his office, period, but others-- Phenomenal memory. He could pick up a phone and call congressmen or senators from other states without ever looking the number up. He would pick up the phone--he never believed in talking to staff. He would talk to Senator Magnuson. He would talk to Chet Holifield. He would call them up personally and say I need this or I need that. He was incredible. Bauman: That's a great story. How was he able to have such persuasive powers with Magnuson, Scoop Jackson, a senator also, Tom Foley, right, these US Senators? Tri-Cities is still fairly small, population-wise. Was it his tenacity? Petersen: Well. It was his tenacity, but it all started with Governor Rosellini. And the fact that Sam, for a period before he came here, was in the Italian something club in Seattle, which was Rosellini, Magnuson was an honorary member. He, Sam, belonged to the Seattle club, which is still there, downtown Seattle. He made politically--he recognized that you needed political connections no matter what. When he came here and then he had the backing of Glen Lee, Tri-City Herald, the combination of those two—Sam took every advantage he could find. His advantage with the Tri-City Herald was, if he thought we needed something, then Glen Lee would support it editorially, and they would go after the politicians collectively and get it. Sam liked to take credit and he did many, many things, but it was really the combination that he put together that was pretty unique—partnerships. It took him a long time to play what I call both sides of the aisle. Typically he was a Democrat. He was a solid, solid Democrat. But he started realizing that there were Republicans that you had to deal with as well, and he needed to work with them over time, and he did. He built friendships across the whole gamut. And active, I mean, he was amazing. If you ever got a chance to go—Sam was small, but if you ever got a chance to go to Washington, DC with Sam, it was an experience. It was unbelievable. He knew where he was going. He didn't have to look at a map. He walked everywhere. I'll say he was a cheapskate, but he was a penny pincher. If a hotel cost $110 a night, he'd find one where you’d get it for $109. Sam was that kind of an individual. But he knew The Hill like nobody else I've ever seen. He knew the underground parts of The Hill, too. He didn't like to get out in the weather, so there's a whole both subway system and hallways between the House side the Capitol and the Senate side. Sam knew all of those underground links, and he'd just take off through those tunnels and go from one side of The Hill to the other side of The Hill. Amazing. Bauman: And he lived a long life, so he had-- Petersen: 101. Bauman: --connections with those politicians-- Petersen: Long period of time. He recognized, too, that he was outliving his supporters. He outlived Magnuson, he outlived Jackson. The one that was constant was Rosellini and Rosellini and he were the same age. And so Rosellini lived to 100, as well. Pretty good. Bauman: What about Glen Lee? What sort of role--what was he like? Petersen: Glen Lee was a bulldog. He's a big, imposing man. The thing that I think the Tri-City Herald should have done was kept his office as a mausoleum. His office was a piece of history by itself. He had pictures with Presidents, he had pictures with governors, he had memorabilia from all over the place. If you asked Sam and Glen the same question, you'd get two similar, but different answers. Who caused something to happen? I'll give you one story that is really unique. How did Battelle get here? Sam had a vision of how Battelle came; Glen Lee had a vision of how Battelle came. Fred Albaugh, one of the lab directors had a story about how Battelle came to be here. And Sherwood Fawcett, who became the first director of the lab, had a different story. I believe they're all correct, but they're different. Each one takes credit in a different way, and so Sam claims full credit for bringing Battelle here. He was at a meeting in New York and he knew that the lab was going to be bid out. He ran into Burke Thomas, who was the president of Battelle, and Sherwood Fawcett, and sold them on the idea coming. That's Sam's story. If you listened to Sherwood Fawcett, Sherwood Fawcett said that the president of the company actually was a graduate of the University of Washington. He wanted to open the lab somewhere in the state of Washington. Burke Thomas found out that this lab was going to be bids, so Burke told Sherwood go and bid on that and win it. Two different sides of the same story. I don't know which one is right. Bauman: You've been connected in Hanford for quite a few years now, and seen a lot changes take place. Obviously, one of the key changes was the mission of the place itself, from production to clean up. I'm wondering if you can talk about that a little bit in terms of how you saw that and the impact that had on the area of Hanford itself? Petersen: I'm happy to. I'm going to connect it back to Sam a little bit. One of the changes that was major was going from AEC, Atomic Energy Commission, to an organization for a short period called ERDA, which I forget now what that stands for. They were only and operation for a year and a half or so, and now to DOE. Most of the new missions for the Hanford site didn't come from within the federal government, they came from the community. As the production reactors were being shut down, Sam and Glen in particular saw that we needed to find new missions for Hanford. One of the first ones was a Hanford Generating Plant, which was operated by Washington Public Power Supply System, but attached to N Reactor. N Reactor was the first dual purpose reactor in the United States, and the vision was it was going to last a long time because it was the newest one and it produced 800 megawatts of power. Sam and Glen said, let's get the HGP here, because the United States wouldn't dare shut down a reactor that's producing 800 megawatts of power, so that was one the early ones. But as you started to see the reactors come down, they looked for other missions. One of the first ones was a thing called BWIP, which is--everything has an acronym, but a Basalt Waste Isolation Project, which was actually in competition with both Nevada and Texas to become the nation's repository. BWIP, that's a misnomer, what I just said. BWIP was actually the study of the geology of basalt for a repository, but it wasn't going to be the repository. It was a study site. If it worked, if it showed that it could work, then there would have been some other place on the Hanford site they would have dug deep down into the basalt and made a repository. Deaf Smith, Nevada, Yucca Mountain, and here were one of the visions of Sam and Glen and wanted to become the repository for the nation. All of a sudden there was a move in Congress that said we're going to select one and it's going to be Yucca Mountain. And so shut the other two down. And actually BWIP, the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, was shut down within a period of two to four weeks. There were hundreds of people who worked out there. When that shut down, Sam then went after that Clinch River Breeder Reactor program. The breeder reactor program ended up getting FFTF so there was certain things that happened in a sequence that he was always looking for that new mission, whatever it was. One example, the one that Sam loved to do, and I stumble on every time, is Sam also heard that MIT and some others were going after this deep space exploration project. There were two sides to that, at the time. One was SNAP, which is the Space Nuclear Application Program and the second side was what became LIGO, the Laser Interferometry Gravitational-Wave Observatory. I can only do that once. But Sam loved that one because he could spit it out. He had that one memorized and he loved to go into a congressional office and say—rather than LIGO. So Sam is the one that really pushed for that project as well. Always, they had a vision of trying to capture new missions for Hanford, and it was never really—the push never came from DOE or ERDA or AEC after the original mission. They all came from the community. And we’re in competition with Oak Ridge, Idaho Falls, Savannah River, for those kind of things. Bauman: Another one of the changes that's taken place at Hanford since I've been here is there are a lot fewer buildings on site now than there were. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, and what that means, you think, in terms of the history. Petersen: I'll start lightly and say it's a conspiracy. The conspiracy is every building that I've ever worked in out there, with the exception of FFTF, has been torn down. [LAUGHTER] So I think they're out to get me. At the top of Rattlesnake Mountain were the Nike Ajax building, they've been torn down, and buildings and then the 300 Areas that I had offices in. What we're seeing today, though, is the success of cleanup, particularly along the river corridor. I will say that the Department of Energy and the contractors have done an amazing job of cleaning up this site. When you look at the changes, particularly in the 300 Area or the reactors themselves, the change is phenomenal. I forget, I think there's something like 280 buildings have been taken off the site, and the landscape has changed. The big, tall smokestacks are gone. The water tanks that were out there are gone. The skyline has changed drastically. And they've done it, too, with an intent to try and return it to original habitat. Most of it is what's called brownfields, but they have done a tremendous job of actually recovering a lot of the vegetation the original look of the land, with the exception that this was agricultural area, so it's different. But that's a huge, huge change. And most of that's been in the last five years. It's a different thing today than it was, 1965. You just see it all over the place. Bauman: You've been giving tours for years. I can't imagine how many tours you've led. Petersen: I don't know. A lot. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Do you have a favorite place on the site of the different places you stopped for tours or maybe when you went out with Bill Rickard? Is there a place that you really--? Petersen: The B Reactor is unique, unique, unique. There is no place like B Reactor. When you go in to B Reactor and you realize that 50,000 people were brought from all over the United States, and some foreign countries, they didn't know what they were building. They didn't have computers. They didn't have portable radios. They didn't have portable phones. And they, start to finish, built B Reactor in 11 months. That's just plain incredible. When you look at the craftsmanship of doing that, the best analogy is still from Jim Albaugh, who was the head of the Boeing program for 787s. We took him on a tour of B Reactor and he came out and he said, this would be like trying to bring in 50,000 people, have them build their own community first, because they had to have a place to live and eat and so on, and then tell them build a 787, but you've got no computers to do it with. And you've got to buy all the materials and manufacture them. So B Reactor is unique, unique. I can't say enough about B Reactor. But there's a flip side, too, and that is I've also become enamored with pre-1943. When what I think about that, it's really the city of White Bluffs, and the fact that there's still a ferry landing out there, there's a bank building out there, there's sidewalks out there. You go out and when you're alone, you go out by yourself, you can just visualize this community that used to exist. Then all of a sudden, they're moved away and 50,000 people come in in a period of weeks, just a very short period of time. They have to build a town, and then they start building things like B Reactor. And to know is all done, really, under the direction of a 36-year-old individual and a Corps of Engineers, it's unbelievable. I know a lot of cocky 36-year-olds, but I don't know anybody like Franklin Matthias to do the things he did with 50,000 people. Unbelievable. My favorite place is B Reactor. It's got to be right there. Bauman: Well, I think you and I could just go on talking for hours, probably. Petersen: [LAUGHTER] I think we're close. Bauman: But I do wonder, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you want to talk about, maybe that I haven't asked you about. Any stories, or anything that's really important that you want to mention? Petersen: There's a piece that has yet to be done, Bob, and that piece I've talked to several people about. That piece is trying to capture either the individuals or the families of the people who were here prior to 1943. I think it is extremely important for us as a community to find those people, identify them, bring them together, allow them back out on the site for the first time. I took the Bruggemann family back out. That was the first time--did this about three years ago. That was the first time they had been back since 1943, and to go--it's like anybody's heritage. If you have a chance to go back and see where your parents or your grandparents--or you, as a child, grew up--the vision is different. Things are smaller, but—the feel of the place. We need to find those people and give them credibility and standing so that they have the opportunity to see their heritage. It turns out that exactly the same time as people were being moved off Hanford, the Japanese were being moved off of Bainbridge Island. Exactly the same time. And they all had to be off by August of 1943. In the case of the Japanese, the federal government has actually done some very nice things. They helped some of the families regain their land. They put up displays of all kinds to say this is what happened. But here at Hanford, of those families still are scattered around the United States, and they have very little to remember the site that they knew by. When you think about--and I'll use the Bruggemanns because I know them the best--you think about Bruggemanns who had 1,400--they had 640 acres, but they leased more—and they had sheep, they had cattle, they had a working staff of something like ten to 20 people on and off, up and down. They were given two weeks to get rid of all that stuff and move. We've got to get that. We've got to capture that. We've got to help them. That's the piece. How’d we do? Did you guys go to sleep back there? Man two: Huh? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well thanks very much, Gary, for sharing your stories. Like I said, I'm sure you and I could go on talking for quite a while. Petersen: I recognize, too, you're really after the people who were here from pre-'63, but '63 to '65 or so. But I'm a Johnny-come-lately, so I look at it different. Bauman: You know a lot of the history of the place, the stories. Petersen: There's pieces that are really pretty fun. There's some of the stories, honestly, that you probably will never hear, because they have different twists to them. Some point, not with an audience, I will tell you there's another side to the Apollo 11 moon rocks that got here. It's a very unique story that only a couple people know, how they actually came to the site. And it was tough. Bauman: Thanks so much, Gary. Petersen: Yeah. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:37 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 260 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area N Reactor 200 East Area 200 West Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1960-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1965-2014 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. May, Catherine Foley, Tom Nixon, Pat Bair, William (Bill) Rickard, Bill Volpentest, Sam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Petersen Description An account of the resource An interview with Gary Petersen conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-6-5 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 200 East Area 200 West Area 300 Area B Reactor DuPont General Electric N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F02810d702f80567e73bb7ee843f5d015.jpg 87fe49b1bf94bfc3d4cd7a41b81ff20d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8a9ec2adb318ccde68126847e0e8f26c.mp4 d293cc135dbea65ad2f7c4c35b5e8110 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gary Troyer Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Troyer Description An account of the resource An interview with Gary Troyer conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F45444ea0142e2dc0ec92d67b2abc7a3d.jpg b9a583fd12524f3367b63c40dbbb4d3b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd8c3701adc70e39ed8e42e917f4555dc.mp4 0dd337652ce77439fb7e1b45ee365fe6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gene Carbaugh Description An account of the resource An interview with Gene Carbaugh conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F160f57694fbb3da57edbf85bf116add8.jpg baf97352530f42b8edc8966b865e0b3e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdef8e3247e523a68f08cd0780b3a80a8.mp4 db092048b58d3687019f885c2f45567e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gene Schreckhise Description An account of the resource An interview with Gene Schreckhise conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe89337f17648ff5d967249f8a688323a.jpg 7ce9ddd94cf4fa9bc9175424df0e032a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1b44dc153ee9aa83b00664a85e51da27.mp4 bdf8c02aab0663cd4777599c643d7541 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Anastas Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Anastas Description An account of the resource An interview with George Anastas conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2cc5a9df175464365af258afc976817e.jpg 19a8294780b3335126190a2f93e00cdd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George and Marjorie Kraemer Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Victor Vargas: Okay. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer on December 9th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with George and Marjorie about their experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting with George? George Kraemer: George R. Kraemer and Kraemer’s K-R-A-E-M-E-R. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: Marjorie Kraemer, K-R-A-E-M-E-R. Franklin: Okay. And George is G-E-O-R-G-E? George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: And Marjorie? Marjorie Kraemer: M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you. So tell me how and why you—did you both come to the Hanford Site together? Marjorie Kraemer: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay, so tell me how and why you both came to the Hanford Site. George Kraemer: I was at the University of Wisconsin-- Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: --in 1955. And I had a friend that was out here. And he told me about all of the deer hunting and the fishing, and all the good things. And he enticed me to come out. Franklin: There wasn’t much of that in Wisconsin? George Kraemer: Oh, yeah. But going out West— Franklin: Oh, right, okay. George Kraemer: --that was new. And so I drove out in April of 1955. I already had a job out here. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: And I stayed at the dorms—M-5, as I remember. Franklin: And what was your job? George Kraemer: I was a lab assistant first. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: From April of ’55 to May of ’56. And then I transferred to drafting department. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: This was at General Electric. And I was in there for—oh, from ’56 to December of ’65. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: And then I was asked to take another position. With—it was actually with Isochem. And it was—oh, engineering analyst, shop engineer, I went through all of those where I worked in a shop where they built vessels for Hanford—for PUREX, for REDOX, B Plant, T Plant—must be one more in there. And I did inspection of them. Fantastic job. Did that for—oh, quite a few years. Then in April of ’75, for another two years, I was a shop planner. I planned the activities of the shop—fabrication shop. And then in July of 1977, I was asked to be manager of this facility—of the shops. They had six separate shops, you know, like machine, tool and die, boilermaker, sheet metal, rotating equipment, welding lab, and all that. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: A fun job, too. Franklin: Yeah? George Kraemer: I kind of liked that; that was down my alley. Then in April of ’81, I was asked to manage activities of the design drafting group in 200 Areas. And I had—supervising the unit managers, engineering designers, drafters and engineers. Then in April of ’84, I was manager of specialty fabrication design and fabrication engineering support group. Again, this had drafting, designers, checkers, a few engineers. Then Westinghouse came. And I was asked to be the manager of design services which had all the drafting for Westinghouse. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: Did that for a number of years. And then--[LAUGHTER]—then my manager was a director, and I told him one day, you need an assistant. I said, I’m going to retire in due time, and I said, you need an assistant. And he looked at me kind of odd. But anyway, six months later he called me up, and he says, would you be my assistant? Had a good job. Nobody reporting to me. I did engineering quality counsel, the PRICE program, and Great Ideas, employee concerns, Native American outreach, the Signature Awards for Westinghouse. I wrote a few speeches, some for the president of Westinghouse. Franklin: Oh, wow. George Kraemer: It was kind of a good job! Then I wrote a little note here, I retired after 36 years on July 31st, 1991. 36 years, 3 months and 19 days, or nearly 9,500 work days, over 106,000 hours at 8 hours a day and over 6 million minutes at Hanford. Franklin: Wow, you really broke that down to the very last second. George Kraemer: But what I’m most proud about, except for that first transfer, all of my jobs, I was asked to take. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: I thought that was—said something for me, anyway. Franklin: And Marjorie, how did you come to Hanford? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, he came out, so—[LAUGHTER] And so we were engaged, and I came out in May. And we got married out here. Franklin: May of—would that be— Marjorie Kraemer: 1955. Franklin: ’55, okay. And you guys were married here in Richland, or--? Marjorie Kraemer: Yes. George Kraemer: Oh, in Coeur d’Alene. Marjorie Kraemer: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Coeur d’Alene, beautiful up there. George Kraemer: Yes. Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t work that first summer. I came in May. And then I got a job at General Electric in September, in the finance department. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked in the 700 Area downtown. And then they reorganized—or disorganized, I used to call it—[LAUGHTER]—and split up. And then I had to go out to the 200 Areas for a few years. And then I quit at the end of 1958 and had our children. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: After they—our son was in kindergarten, I went to work for a doctor in town, a pathologist, for ten years. And then I went to work for Exxon Nuclear, Advanced Nuclear Fuels. Which was eventually bought out by Siemens, whom I retired with in 1991 also. Franklin: Oh, wow. And when did you start with Exxon Nuclear? Marjorie Kraemer: 1975. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you spent a significant amount of time— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right. Franklin: And did you also do finance and accounting there? Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, yes, in the accounting department. Franklin: How—did you face any particular issues as being a woman in the workplace from the ‘50s— Marjorie Kraemer: Well, let’s see. Franklin: Especially in that early era, you know, where women were first kind of— George Kraemer: You couldn’t work overtime. Marjorie Kraemer: I remember when I worked out in the areas, in the 200 Areas, women couldn’t work overtime. For some reason. I don’t know if it was a union thing or a company policy or the federal government. George Kraemer: You couldn’t work alone, anyway. Marjorie Kraemer: Right. You couldn’t work overtime. They didn’t want you to work out there then. Franklin: And you couldn’t work alone, either? George Kraemer: Well, in overtime, I remember when I was manager over there, if some of the ladies had to work, we had to have somebody around. Franklin: Like a male supervisor or just a supervisor? George Kraemer: Yeah, somebody. Another worker even. Franklin: All right. Interesting. Marjorie Kraemer: And it was different, living in Richland, because it was a government town. Franklin: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: And you had to—you probably interviewed people where you get on a housing list to get a house. And your name comes up, you go down and you look in this little glass deal where they had the list— George Kraemer: They posted of the new— Marjorie Kraemer: Posted them, and when you-- Franklin: Oh, really? I hadn’t heard that. Could you describe it in a little more detail? George Kraemer: Yeah, we put in for housing as soon as we got here. That was, well, in May. They had a posted board. Every week, they’d put a posting out there on the board and say who was eligible for a house. Finally, being the lowest peons out there, [LAUGHTER] we were eligible for a two-bedroom prefab. Franklin: Oh, okay. I live in one of those now. Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Do you? Okay. George Kraemer: So we got to look at two or three of them. Had to do it real promptly. And we choose one. 706 Abbott. Franklin: 706 Abbott, okay. George Kraemer: In Richland. Marjorie Kraemer: We lived there in town, yeah. It was different, because, well, the house came with appliances. Refrigerator, stove and— George Kraemer: What was it, $26? Marjorie Kraemer: $27 a month or something. George Kraemer: $27 a month or something for rent. Franklin: And how was that comparative to—like, is that a pretty average rent, or was that a pretty good deal? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was cheaper because it was government. George Kraemer: It was cheap. Of course, I didn’t make too much money back then, either. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: Of course if something went wrong, you just called up housing and they came and fixed it. Or they gave you a new one. [LAUGHTER] You know, a new stove or whatever. Franklin: Were they pretty prompt? George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: Like, was the service— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they were. Franklin: --pretty good? George Kraemer: They had a special group, that’s all they did was maintain the homes. Franklin: Okay. And describe that atmosphere of living in a company town where everyone worked at the same place and, you know, it was landlords of the government. I wonder if you could kind of talk about that atmosphere. George Kraemer: Well, every Friday afternoon, The GE News would come out. You’ve probably heard of the GE News. Franklin: Yeah, we have copies of The GE News in our collection. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. George Kraemer: It was the local one, and that was reading, and they had the want ads in there, which you always went because people were buying and selling a lot of things in that era. The—like she said, I remember the water. The water was—we had both irrigation water and house water. Two separate spigots there. And that was kind of interesting. That all come with our $26 or $27. Franklin: Wow. George Kraemer: After about, oh, I don’t know how many years it was, we got a—no, we bought that house. That’s right. Franklin: In ’58, when they— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, ’58. George Kraemer: Yeah, we bought that house. I think we paid $2,200 for it, as I remember. Franklin: Wow. George Kraemer: They were appraised maybe $3,000 and then they gave you a discount. Franklin: Wow. George Kraemer: And not too long after that, we moved into a two-bedroom—three-bedroom— Marjorie Kraemer: Three-bedroom, precut. George Kraemer: Three-bedroom precut. Franklin: Oh, okay. George Kraemer: That we bought on our own through the realtor. Franklin: Was that one of the newer constructions? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was better construction. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It was better construction? George Kraemer: The prefabs are made out of two-by-twos instead of two-by-fours for structure. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: And plywood—quarter-inch plywood on the inside and outside, and some—insulation wasn’t too good in it, but it had a little bit. Franklin: Yeah, the insulation leaves a little bit to be desired. George Kraemer: It’s some sort of paper product, two inches thick. Franklin: Right. Well, yeah, because those were made, originally, for the Tennessee Valley Authority. George Kraemer: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to not last very long. George Kraemer: Short-term thing. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. And they’re still— George Kraemer: And they’re still in use, yes. Franklin: Still around, yeah. Yeah, mine has been pretty extensively remodeled, but it’s still—still standing. Marjorie Kraemer: I do remember when we first came here that Richland had the highest birthrate and the lowest death rate of anyone in the nation. George Kraemer: We were part of that. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right. Franklin: And it was likely due to the medical care, right? George Kraemer: The medical care, a lot of young people— Marjorie Kraemer: And everybody worked at Hanford and so they—you know, they were younger. There wasn’t any grandma and grandpas around. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, other people I’ve interviewed have mentioned that, that when they—especially— Marjorie Kraemer: There wasn’t older people, you didn’t see them in Richland. Franklin: Right, there was no one who was retired or— Marjorie: Right, right. George Kraemer: No! You’re right on. Franklin: So it was mostly probably people your age. George Kraemer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And then children of varying ages. George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. George Kraemer: You talk about the other things went on. We had limited places where we could go out and eat. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: Like we had the Mart building. That was a popular place. Marjorie Kraemer: Well, they had a grease— George Kraemer: It had a drug store. Marjorie Kraemer: It had a little diner in it or whatever. George Kraemer: A little dining area, things like that. Franklin: Little greasy spoon type of thing? George Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: And where was that? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was on the corner of where the post office used to be, on that corner there, across the street. And of course it was kind of like a Quonset hut. George Kraemer: Yeah, it was like a big Quonset thing. Marjorie Kraemer: And of course it’s been torn down. George Kraemer: Remodeled, anyway. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Quonset huts haven’t lasted somehow. George Kraemer: When I lived in the dorms, M-5, for a month? Two months? Before we got married. And I was out here with a friend and she wasn’t out here yet. And then trying to get our food every night, we had to go eat in restaurants every night. It was kind of interesting. Very limited. Franklin: Yeah. George Kraemer: Compared to what you have nowadays. Franklin: Right, or even perhaps where you had come from in—was that University of Wisconsin, is that Madison? George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: Okay. I imagine a college town would have probably had a little bit more to— George Kraemer: Oh, yes. Franklin: --for, you know. And so what about the night life? Did you ever partake in night life in Richland, or was there much of night life? Marjorie Kraemer: No. We just—we played, you know, cards and things with friends. George Kraemer: Yeah, a lot of cards. We had a couple friends out here already. And then we made new friends pretty rapidly. As I said, we had a lot of cards. Marjorie Kraemer: Played cards. George Kraemer: Camping. Did a lot of camping. I had a ’49 Ford— Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: --at that instance and timeframe. And the first summer we were here we were about camping every weekend. Franklin: And where would you go, often? George Kraemer: Oh, the Blue Mountains, north above Spokane— Marjorie Kraemer: Mount Rainier. George Kraemer: Mount Rainier, a lot. That’s one of my favorite places. Marjorie Kraemer: White Pass. Franklin: Yeah, it’s really pretty up there. George Kraemer: So that took a lot of our time in the summer. Franklin: I bet. George Kraemer: Winter times were—well, we didn’t go camping. But, again, that’s mostly—we had a lot of cards and games that we played with our young friends. Marjorie Kraemer: And you hunted a lot. George Kraemer: Yeah, I did a lot of deer hunting and a lot of fishing. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Well, you said that’s what brought you out here. George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if each of you, starting with Marjorie first this time, could describe a typical work day when you worked out on Site. Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, let’s see. When I worked out in the Area it was a little different than in town, because I had to ride the bus. And of course, I think I got off about 6:00, and of course it was dark. And walked a couple blocks to the bus, and you paid a nickel for each way to go out to the Area, which was about 27 miles. And when you got there in the wintertime, it was dark. And you went in, and I worked in the B Plant, it was. And it was all cement, no windows. So you went in and it was dark. When you came out to go home, it was dark. So you never saw the sunshine until the weekend. Franklin: Wow. Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] In the summer, it was awful because not all the buses were air conditioned. George Kraemer: None of them were. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, we had a few, I think, that were. George Kraemer: Not then. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, gosh. You were just soaked, you know, because it was so hot. 100 degrees, riding in this bus. George Kraemer: And they allowed smoking on the buses. That was not good for us that didn’t smoke. Franklin: Oh you guys—both of you didn’t smoke? George Kraemer: No. Marjorie Kraemer: No, no. Franklin: Seems to, probably in the ‘50s, have been more of a rarity than a—or at least, seems like a lot more people smoked then. George Kraemer: True. Franklin: Especially, I can imagine, in the wintertime with closed windows, that would be pretty oppressive. So George, what about you? Describe a typical— George Kraemer: Well, I worked at 2-East for the first nine months or so. And that was like her. Our 222-S lab, no windows in there. Get up early, ride the bus, go to the—where Stores is now, at the big bus lot there. So all of the buses would go into there, and you would get off your bus and take the appropriate 200 Area bus or whatever, 100 Area bus. And likewise, when you came home, you’d come back to that bus lot, get off the buses, and get to your route. Franklin: Was that time on the bus included in your work day? George Kraemer: That was my time. Franklin: It was included in your time. It was not included in your time? George Kraemer: No, it was not included in-- Franklin: Oh, it was not included. George Kraemer: No, no. Marjorie Kraemer: No. Franklin: So that was just considered part of— George Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: Was that a pretty fast transition though, from catching the bus by your home to go to the lot to then get on the other bus— George Kraemer: It was fast. Franklin: It was pretty efficient? George Kraemer: And the buses were pretty much on time. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: For some reason, I mostly had express buses where we didn’t stop at the bus lot. George Kraemer: Well, later on, yes. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. And so then you said you’d get on the appropriate bus to the Area, and then—take me forward from there. George Kraemer: Okay. We get on the bus there and I went into the lab, and that was an all-enclosed building again, no windows. And I did, oh, nuclear—not nuclear but radioactive waste disposal and things like that. We’d get a bus from 300 Area about once a week or twice a week and they would—not a bus, a tanker truck. Sorry about that. A tanker truck would come in and I unloaded that into some of our special waste tanks out there. Franklin: Were these the tanks in the Tank Farms, or are these different tanks? George Kraemer: No, that wasn’t the Tank Farm; that was the special area just for the 300 Area waste. Franklin: Okay. And what would you do with the waste? George Kraemer: Well, the tanker truck would back up to a big nozzle, and I’d hook up the nozzles and drain the tanks. Let it drain for an hour or whatever it was, and then go back out and unhook the thing and wave the driver on. Franklin: Okay. And what would be done with the waste at that facility? George Kraemer: It was just stored. Franklin: Just stored. Okay. George Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think we—outside of doing some sampling, which I didn’t do, that was it. Franklin: Would that eventually go into the ground then? George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And that’s when it would eventually go into the single-shell or double-shell tanks. George Kraemer: Sooner or later. Franklin: Sooner or later, find its way there. Okay. George Kraemer: Yeah. And then I transferred into drafting and that was downtown in the 760 Building. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: Of course that way I could ride to work or walk to work. Franklin: And that’s like pen-and-table drafting, right? Like on a drafting board. George Kraemer: Drafting board, yes. That was kind of nice, because I could ride bicycle, walk or take the car, whatever. And I’d get home at least when it was daylight. Franklin: That seems like kind of an interesting job shift from handling waste to more of a technical thing like drafting. George Kraemer: Well, yeah, well, what started that, my boss wanted some sketches of flow diagrams and stuff like that. I said, I can do them. I did them, and he was impressed with them, and he says, you ought to be in drafting. And he led the way for me. Franklin: Okay, interesting. What did you go to school for? George Kraemer: Engineering. Franklin: Oh, okay, just engineering in general? George Kraemer: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay, and Marjorie, did you attend college? Marjorie Kraemer: No, no. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you gain the training for accounting and bookkeeping? Was it just all on the job? Marjorie: Yeah, on-the-job training. And you could advance back then. Nowadays if you didn’t have a college degree, well, I don’t think you would go as far. Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay. George Kraemer: Another thing—I also took a lot of classes. GE at this time, they had engineering folks which would give us classes in various subjects. Franklin: Is that over here in the East Building? Or was it different? George Kraemer: I can’t remember exactly where it was. Sometimes—I think it was the Federal Building, I think it was. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: Just various things that would help me in my work and help me in my promotions, too. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. That’s kind of a—seems like so much was provided to workers in terms of training and housing, and I think it seems foreign to a lot of workers today to think of a company being that kind of paternal—caring, paternalistic almost. It’s kind of the vibe I get off that era of Hanford’s history. George Kraemer: Yeah. While I was downtown in drafting there, we worked on—I was in the piping squad. We worked on facilities in the 100 Areas, 200 Areas, not 300 Areas then. So I got to know pretty much all the areas. And I went out to visit them on lots of times where you have to go out and see what is really there. You go look at old drawings and it may not be the same. Franklin: Right. Because you’re not looking at the as-builts. George Kraemer: Right. Franklin: You’re looking at the older— George Kraemer: Right, and so consequently, we made a fair number of trips out to the various sites regardless of where they were. Franklin: Okay, so you got, then, to see the whole site pretty well. George Kraemer: I think I did, yes. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie, what was—well I’m going to ask this question of both of you, but we’ll start with Marjorie. What was the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: Well, [LAUGHTER] I’m not sure how to answer that. It was a good place to work. And it, you know, paid well. And I guess that’s, you know, the main thing. I wasn’t out for some big career or anything like that. Franklin: Sure. And, George, what about you? What were some of the more challenging or rewarding aspects of— George Kraemer: Well, you know, we went through a lot of companies: GE, Westinghouse, Atlantic Richfield, Isochem—maybe another one in there. But the fact is, I never lost a day of work throughout 36, almost 37 years. I was never laid off. But I think the most rewarding was being recognized for my work. Being asked to take all these promotions. I think that was rewarding, to me. Must be doing something right. Franklin: Right, yeah. Great. Did the nature of the work at Hanford ever unsettle either of you? The, you know, just the-- Marjorie Kramer: Oh, you mean— Franklin: The amount of chemical or nuclear waste or the possibility of— Marjorie Kraemer: Radiation. Franklin: --Soviet attack or anything like that. Did that ever— George Kraemer: Well, you know, when we first moved here, the Army was still here. Marjorie Kraemer: Camp Hanford. George Kraemer: At Camp Hanford. Franklin: Right. George Kraemer: And they had Nike missile sites up on—not Badger, but— Marjorie Kraemer: White Bluffs, out that way, didn’t they, across the river? George Kraemer: Yeah, White Bluffs, and— Franklin: Rattlesnake? George Kraemer: Yeah, Rattlesnake! And you wondered about that. Planes would fly over every now and then. But other than that, as far as being attacked, no. And radiation-wise, I’ve learned to respect it. Franklin: Sure. George Kraemer: I never got involved in any serious things even though I went into some bad places, probably. But I never had—in the various canyons and stuff of the buildings. But never had any problems. Franklin: Okay. And same for you, Marjorie? Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and of course I wasn’t out there all that long. But I remember when we used to travel quite a bit. When we would travel and people would, oh, where do you work? And I would never say Exxon Nuclear; I would say Exxon. [LAUGHTER] Because they thought we glow in the dark, probably. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, that seems to be— George Kraemer: That was very common, regardless of where you went. Like, say, we travel a lot and you stand up and introduce yourself. You didn’t want to say a great deal, because they figured you—they didn’t want to be around you. You glow. Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Some people. Franklin: Why do you think that endures? Because today, even today, that’s— George Kraemer: Ignorance. Ignorance of radiation, like in the paper here and now, they said, we’re the other Chernobyl. No! There’s not that possibility. Franklin: Right. Because our problem is mostly chemical. George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: It’s not so much nuclear. I mean, there’s radioactivity— George Kraemer: Oh, there’s a lot of radioactivity; there’s no question. Franklin: --but it’s— George Kraemer: But it’s not going to explode. It’s not that type. Franklin: Right, we won’t have a meltdown. At least we can say that much. Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I’m thinking of like plants shutting down or starting up— George Kraemer: President Kennedy— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. George Kraemer: --came out here. I can’t remember the year now. Franklin: September 14th, 1963. Marjorie Kraemer: 1963, yeah, ’63. Franklin: Or 17th. George Kraemer: Anyway, I was there. We all bussed out to—was that 100-N? Marjorie Kraemer: He was out in 100-N, wasn’t he? George Kraemer: 100-N, or--? Marjorie Kraemer: Wasn’t it? George Kraemer: 100-N, I think, wasn’t it? Franklin: Yeah— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so. Franklin: He came to dedicate part of the steam generating— George Kraemer: You know, incidentally, I did the first working drawings, the scope drawings, of the piping of the major process piping of 100-N. Franklin: Oh, okay. George Kraemer: That was a fantastic job. I know one time I did my drawings, got them and they decided, hey, that’s classified, after the fact. I had to go through, collect all of my drawings and everything and then I had to secure my drafting boards and stuff like that. [LAUGHTER] George Kraemer: But we did it. Marjorie Kraemer: And I can remember in the 703 Building when I worked downtown in 19—I think it was ‘55 or ’56—Ronald Reagan came. Because we had the General Electric Theater. Franklin: That’s right! Marjorie Kraemer: And he came through our building and was talking to everybody. Franklin: Did you get to meet him? Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, uh-huh. Franklin: Okay. And did you also? Did he go to the Site? Marjorie Kraemer: No. George Kraemer: I don’t— Marjorie Kraemer: I think you were out in the Area. George Kraemer: I was out in the Area then. I don’t think I—I knew he was here, obviously. He was on—he toured some buildings, but I didn’t get to see him. Franklin: That’s pretty—that’s interesting. I’d heard he’d come, but I hadn’t met anybody who actually really— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, he came through our 703 Building— Franklin: Oh, okay. So I imagine that was— Marjorie Kraemer: Where finance was. Franklin: --quite an interesting thing to have a Hollywood celebrity coming to Hanford. And so did you both go to see President Kennedy when he came to dedicate the N Reactor? Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t get to. Did you? George Kraemer: You were not working at Hanford then, I don’t think. Marjorie Kraemer: Right, no. George Kraemer: But anyway, the whole company [LAUGHTER] all the people were there that could be excused. They just bussed everybody out there. Franklin: Right. And were you one of those people? George Kraemer: Yes, I was one of them people. Franklin: Can you kind of describe that scene? George Kraemer: Well, he was on the podium which was quite a ways away from me there. And he gave quite a talk, you know. Of course the excitement of hearing your President—or seeing your President was kind of interesting. And I really don’t know what he said anymore. [LAUGHTER] George Kraemer: But I thought that was a major highlight. Another one, probably, is when General Electric decided they were going to leave. Franklin: Right. And that was in mid-‘60s, right? George Kraemer: ’65, probably. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds right. George Kraemer: ’66, maybe. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so. Franklin: So describe that. How was the mood around Hanford and around Richland? Because General Electric had been so prominent. Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it affected George quite a bit. George Kraemer: Yeah, it affected my pension. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. George Kraemer: Quite a bit. You know, I worked for over 36 years, and for those ten years that I worked under GE, that’s not included in my final pay—pension. Franklin: Interesting. George Kraemer: So I get—I don’t know. Very little a month for those ten years. It’s in a separate pension fund. Franklin: Ah. Why is that? That seems a little— Marjorie Kraemer: Because you were under— George Kraemer: The government works in strange and mysterious ways. And there were lawsuits and stuff like that, trying to get them to include our years in the master plan. Marjorie Kraemer: It was—one of the main reasons was you weren’t 35 yet. George Kraemer: That’s another thing, yeah, I wasn’t 35 yet. That was a condition to get vested. Marjorie Kraemer: That was the cutoff to get that-- Franklin: Right, right. Marjorie Kraemer: --included in your seniority. Franklin: So you could start to invest, right. Marjorie Kraemer: Right, vested. Anyway. Franklin: Wow. George Kraemer: And of course the big thing when Westinghouse came over to retake all of the—together—you know, GE split up and then we had various split-up companies, and then all of the sudden we’re back together again. Franklin: Yeah, it seems like—one other person I interviewed a little bit ago remarked at how the contracting agency, the government doesn’t always seem to know—like, it tries one big contractor, and then it tries to split it up a bunch, and then they go back to one big contractor, and then they want to split it up a bunch. So I’m wondering if you—either you or both of you—can talk about that shifting of contractors and how that impacted your work and your life. George Kraemer: Well, in my case, same job. [LAUGHTER] Same boss, same everything. There wasn’t much new. Different name on the paycheck, obviously. Franklin: But your unit stayed pretty intact throughout the change? George Kraemer: Yes. There were no major reorganizations at first because of the takeovers of the different companies. Franklin: Okay. And, Marjorie, what about you—so you worked initially those first few years, and then later on you worked for Exxon Nuclear, which—was Exxon Nuclear, were they a contractor or a subcontractor, or were they just aligned with— Marjorie Kraemer: They were a private company. Franklin: A private company, okay. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they just made nuclear pellets. Franklin: So they were like a service company for Hanford? Marjorie Kraemer: No. George Kraemer: No. Marjorie Kraemer: No, no, they made nuclear fuels for reactors all over the world. Franklin: Oh, okay. So they weren’t a Hanford company. Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were private. Franklin: So they were just in the same industry— Marjorie Kraemer: But— George Kraemer: Yes. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and so—and it was Exxon. Franklin: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: It was Jersey—called Jersey Nuclear when I first started out. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: And then it was Exxon. And then they changed to Advanced Nuclear Fuels under Exxon. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: And then Siemens bought them in 1989, I believe. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked for them for a couple years. Nothing really changed. And then I retired with Siemens Corporation. Franklin: Okay, interesting. Marjorie Kraemer: Which was a really pretty good deal, because they have really good benefits. German companies do. Franklin: They are very well-known for that, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like a pretty decent deal. Marjorie Kraemer: I think they worked half-time, because when we wanted to call them up in Germany and talk to them about something, it seems like they were either on vacation or they had a holiday. [LAUGHTER] They were never there. Franklin: Any memories of the, like, social scene or local politics, or just any—you know, either before the great selling, you know, the privatization or afterwards in Tri-Cities? Or actually, let me be more specific. I’m wondering if either of you can tell me about some of the protest activity that took place, or if you remember that, in the beginning in the late ‘60s and end of the ‘70s. Both kind of the protests that were pro-Hanford and anti-Hanford. Marjorie Kraemer: No, we never did get involved in any of them. I didn’t. George Kraemer: I didn’t, either. There were no major protests that I really remember. I know one time, there was a few of them along the road when we went out before you get to 300 Area. They couldn’t get out very far then. Franklin: Right. George Kraemer: But I didn’t really take too much interest in them. I figured they weren’t hurting anything. Franklin: So the Tri-Cities up until the late ‘60s was pretty segregated in terms of where African Americans could live. Even though they could work at Hanford, they couldn’t always live in Richland for a while. And I’m wondering if you guys could—did you observe that kind of— George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: --that Civil Rights action and kind of some of that segregation before the Civil Rights? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I remember that there were a few blacks—I don’t know what you—blacks going to the high school and stuff when my daughter was going. Well, the Mitchells were here, you know. Franklin: Right, CJ Mitchell. George Kraemer: CJ Mitchell. Marjorie Kraemer: And Cameron Mitchell was in my daughter’s— George Kraemer: Daughter went to school with him. Marjorie Kraemer: And she was good friends with him, you know. Franklin: Right, and he was one of the first— Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right, and— Franklin: --people to get someone to sell him a house in Richland. He had a lot of struggle getting that. Marjorie Kraemer: And I don’t know what they did with the housing—government housing—if they gave it to—I guess maybe they didn’t give it to black people. George Kraemer: They had no choice then. Franklin: I believe they had to live in east Pasco until the ‘60s. Marjorie Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think they could live in Kennewick, either. Franklin: No, Kennewick-- George Kraemer: Kennewick was very bad. Franklin: Yeah, they had the sundown. The sundown laws. Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, right. George Kraemer: Yes. When we first moved here, I’d become good friends with an African. And we used to play cards with him, and go places with him. I thought we were well-accepted. Marjorie Kraemer: But he lived in Pasco, didn’t he? George Kraemer: Yes. He did not live in Richland. Franklin: Oh, right. George Kraemer: But—I said it was very plain to us, that—I say, Kennewick was very bad. And they didn’t even want to go to Kennewick, the colored folks. Franklin: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to get out of town before, like you say, sundown. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Marjorie Kraemer: Which is not very nice. George Kraemer: But, you know, it’s not nice to say, but they knew their place. Franklin: Right, well, yeah, they knew where they could go and couldn’t—where they were welcome and where they were not. Yeah, that squares pretty well with the historical record. Thank you for that. Marjorie Kraemer: When our daughter—after she graduated from high school, she went to WSU. And then she graduated from there. She got a nursing degree, and she went to Seattle and worked. And one of her comments once when she called me up, and she says, Mom, we really led a sheltered life in Richland, you know? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s interesting. I wonder if you could unpack that a little bit more. What would have been so sheltered about Richland for her? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I think, you know, she went to Seattle and got a job. And her first job was in the King County jail. She was a nurse in the clinic. And she saw all these prisoners and— George Kraemer: Not the best clientele. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And that was one of her comments after she called me up—called me up and said, you know, we really led a sheltered life, after seeing all these homeless people and skid row, and—you know. It’s just different. Franklin: Right, because I imagine Richland would have been a pretty solid middle class, mostly white— Marjorie Kraemer: Right. Franklin: Still is majority, but mostly white, middle class. Pretty safe. If you didn’t work at Hanford, you didn’t live in Richland until 1958. And I imagine after that, it was pretty slow to change where most people who lived here worked at Hanford for— George Kraemer: I think the police had a good—made their presence known, in a good way. Franklin: Sure. George Kraemer: And I think that was the difference between Seattle living and outskirts of Seattle or wherever she lived. Franklin: Well, I imagine it would be in general an easier community to police where you knew everyone worked in the same place. Marjorie Kraemer: Right, right. Franklin: Everyone knew—or a lot of people knew everyone else, and you know it was— George Kraemer: But crime was very low. Franklin: Sure, sure. Marjorie Kraemer: Right. George Kraemer: First of all, you know the folks have clearances, things like that, that’s going to get a better grade of people. Because they went through all the rigmarole you have to go through. Marjorie Kraemer: I saved one of those questionnaires, those Q clearance deals. I still have it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, yeah? Marjorie Kraemer: And I left—when I filled mine out, I left two weeks of my life off of this—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, no. Marjorie Kraemer: Of course it came back and they wanted to know where I was. [LAUGHTER] I was in transit to out here or something. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: And so they wanted to know— Franklin: Those forms went back, what, like ten years or something like that? Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, it was— George Kraemer: Renewed or unless there was a need to upgrade. Marjorie Kraemer: When I first filled it out, of course I was only like 20 years old. So I didn’t have that much to have to put on it. But they went back, and people told us, you know, we were from a small town and of course they told us, these people— George Kraemer: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: They were asking about you and all this— Franklin: Right, calling around. Marjorie Kraemer: Right. George Kraemer: They were wanting to know what was going on. Franklin: Right. Yeah, I know, that’s— Marjorie Kraemer: Wanting to know where you went to school and where you worked back there. [LAUGHTER] George Kraemer: I first got an L clearance when I came here. Franklin: Is that a lower or higher— George Kraemer: That’s a lower grade. And then as soon as I transferred into drafting, I had to get a new clearance, a Q clearance, again. Which I had the rest of my time here. Franklin: Okay, interesting. Were they still any—I’m always a little fuzzy on my dates with this—were there any Atomic Frontier Days parades when you were here? George Kraemer: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Or were those over by the time that— Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were here, and in fact, Sharon Tate— George Kraemer: Yeah, Sharon Tate was in that. Marjorie Kraemer: One of the first few years we were here, she was the Miss Tri-Cities. Franklin: Oh, really? George Kraemer: Yes. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Her dad was at Hanford, you know, Camp Hanford. He was an Army-- Franklin: Oh, that’s right, because I’ve always heard she was an Army—kind of an Army brat. Oh, really? That’s really interesting. I’ve oftentimes asked—I used to ask people about that question and it would miss a lot, so I kind of stopped asking about Sharon Tate. But that’s interesting that you remember seeing her? Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, sure. George Kraemer: Yeah, I remember they had parades down the main—one of the streets. I don’t remember which ones now. Franklin: And you guys went to the Atomic Frontier Days and all of that? George Kraemer: Why, certainly! Yes. Franklin: Yeah, those were very colorful and kind of interesting events. Kind of wish I could have seen one of those in the flesh. Great. And so—gosh, you guys have already run down so many of my questions without even me needing to ask them. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: But I still have a couple. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy impacted your jobs, respectively? I’ll start with Marjorie. Marjorie Kraemer: Well, you just knew that you weren’t supposed to—you know, I was in finance. And so I saw all these numbers and all this stuff. And you just knew you weren’t supposed to talk about things like that. But other than that, you know, it didn’t really affect me all that much. George Kraemer: Well, I know, going on vacation or something like that, or going back to Wisconsin. We’d go quite a bit. And, what do you do out there? And you know, in general terms you tell them. But I was trying to remember some specifics. I’m sure there were some to do with security. Marjorie Kraemer: It must have been very hard to work here in the ‘40s. [LAGUHTER] You didn’t know what you were doing, you know, you were building all this stuff. George Kraemer: Yeah, we knew what we were doing, you know. What we were making and all this thing. Franklin: You could talk about it to your coworker. Marjorie Kraemer: Right. Franklin: And not be afraid of being evicted from your home and losing your job. George Kraemer: I remember looking at an old paper. It said, big headlines: it’s bombs. Franklin: Yes. Yes, that’s the Richland Villager from right after the Nagasaki bombing, yeah. Interesting. Do you remember, were there like searches or did they search people on the buses? George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: Well-- George Kraemer: Going home. [LAUGHTER] A lot of times you just had to open your lunch pail up, and make sure there was nothing in it. Franklin: You didn’t have any atoms in your pocket or anything? George Kraemer: Yeah. Marjorie Kraemer: They didn’t always look. George Kraemer: They didn’t always look, but every now and then they’d have a search day. Franklin: Okay. Kind of keep you on your toes. George Kraemer: And of course all of the cars at 300 Area where the major barricade was. You had to stop, open your trunks if you drove a car. And then if you went into the various—200 Areas, 100 Areas, you had to stop again or you parked your car in the parking lot outside and walked in. And if you went into the various buildings, like PUREX or like in the lab where I was there, you had a number and a radiation badge, and your name and a number you were assigned. When I went to 222-S, it was number ten. I must have got some big wheels for a number or something like that. I was ten. They would look you up to make sure in their file—they’d look at, make sure the picture matched you. Franklin: Wow, and that would be every time you’d come in? George Kraemer: Every time you went in the building there. Franklin: Wow. That’s very tight security. George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: When you—you said you had to go around the site a lot—how would you get around once you got—so you took the bus in, but how would you get from one area to the other? George Kraemer: Engineering department had cars—government cars. Franklin: Okay. And so then you’d just—could only travel in— George Kraemer: And we just traveled in government cars out to the various facilities. Franklin: Okay. When did the bus service stop? George Kraemer: Good question. Let’s see. Marjorie Kraemer: Late ‘60s? George Kraemer: Hmm. Probably in that era. Marjorie Kraemer: Because when we built the new house, and it was in 1966, and you still rode the bus then. George Kraemer: That’s right. Marjorie Kraemer: So I think it was in the late ‘60s. George Kraemer: I would say in the late ‘60s, it was. Marjorie Kraemer: Or early ‘70s. Franklin: And so then— George Kraemer: And there was much frustration. Franklin: To much frustration? George Kraemer: On a lot of people’s part. Including mine. Franklin: Really? Why was that? George Kraemer: I loved that bus ride. I mean, I loved going out there for—it was changed to, I don’t know, 50 cents or something. It was higher price, anyway. The nickel was just to pay insurance and liabilities. But—so I had to drive my car out or get into a carpool, or whatever. Marjorie Kraemer: But then for a while, they stopped the service in town picking everybody up, and then you could go to the bus lot and catch a bus. For a while, for a few years. George Kraemer: Yeah, they stopped the rounds through town. Franklin: Okay. That’s such an interesting structure of life, to have everybody in one town that all catches the bus, and— Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] And work at the same— Franklin: You know when the buses are coming and everyone kind of depends on it, and— George Kraemer: Yes. Franklin: That’s just such an interesting—seems almost kind of foreign to a lot of people today. And so you said that was kind of a chagrin that the bus—is that because you liked just not having to drive, or not— George Kraemer: I liked not having to drive. I knew that I had to be outside there at 6:00 or whatever it was every morning. And it was there. It was— Marjorie Kraemer: You could read, you could do work—you could do all sorts of things. George Kraemer: When I was manager out there for a while, I could do a lot of work on the bus. Franklin: Ah. George Kraemer: I had my own philosophy. I did not like to take any work home. I had my briefcase and I would do a lot of stuff on the bus. That was 45 minutes of uninterrupted time, and I could get a lot of my work done. Franklin: Oh, I bet. Yeah. Interesting. What would you either—both of you, sorry—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And I’ll start with you, George. George Kraemer: Well, I think you’re doing part of it. [LAUGHTER] Let them know what’s going on. And you know, the kids never really knew what—really, what we were doing, I don’t think, in detail. Yeah, they knew in general. As I look back at the government—not too impressed. Franklin: Really? Why is that? George Kraemer: The stuff that goes on out there now—when we were—I was working, I felt I was doing a job. Things were going out—in the shops, things were going out the door. We were making things. Things were happening. I was proud of our work. Now I begin to wonder how long—you know, the Tank Farms have been undergoing their thing for years, and it’s going to be another amount of years before they do anything. It’s—not enough things are happening. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Marjorie, what about you? What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was just such a different sort of life, you know. You were kind of protected, I guess. You know, everybody, like, knew everybody, and you all worked at the same place, and your kids went to the schools in town. You went to the doctors that are in town. It was just a different sort of a— Franklin: Right, like your daughter had said maybe a little protected, sheltered. Marjorie Kraemer: Sheltered life, yeah. Franklin: It’s so interesting to me because—George, the thing you said about feeling like you’d done something—I’ve heard that from other interviewees who had worked in that transition period, who had worked when Hanford was producing and felt a real sense of accomplishment. And then kind of felt like it was mired down during cleanup and that the mission’s unclear, the work doesn’t progress. And Marjorie, it’s always been amazing to me to hear that, that it does seem like a really safe and peaceful place, but when you look at it kind of on—there’s a flipside to that, though. It’s amazing that there’s this safe, peaceful place next to nine nuclear reactors. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie: And you know— Franklin: And you know, like a major target in the Cold War. Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I guess that’s true. I don’t know. You just-- Franklin: But I think those two can exist side-by-side. That it could be, you know, a place of production but also of danger and a place of safety but also—you know, and of security. I just—it’s—there’s a lot of contradictions in Hanford that I think are really interesting that get brought out in these interviews. So thank you. Is there anything that I haven’t asked either of you about that you would like to talk about? George Kraemer: No. I’m sure I’ll think of some when I get home. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: That’s very common. That happens all the time. I get emails a lot from people like-- Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: --I wish I had said this. George Kraemer: Oh, let’s see. I think when I was a shop engineer out there in the shops, best years of my life out there. Again, I felt proud that we were doing something, things were going out the door. I was responsible for a lot of critical measurements and things of—the jumpers, the tanks, and everything that we did in the shop. And then troubleshooting. There was some failures out there and I would go out to troubleshoot to see how we could fix things. Contaminated vessels and things like that. But those were good years. Best years I had out there. Management was good, but there are a lot more responsibilities. But those worked out, too. Franklin: Right. Great. Marjorie Kraemer: And I think the schools were—you know—were good. Franklin: Right. Marjorie Kraemer: The kids had a good education, had good teachers. Franklin: Right, I’ve heard that a lot that people—there were a lot of well-educated people that worked at Hanford and at first Battelle—Hanford Labs, and then Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Labs. So that there was a high focus on education and— George Kraemer: Another thing is, probably more so than now, but the school sports. Didn’t have too much else to do, so there was a lot of basketball games and football games and soccer games and all that sort of things that people went to. And they really supported the high school sports. Franklin: Okay. You think that’s more then than now. George Kraemer: I think more then than now. There was less to do. Franklin: Right, it was a little more of an isolated community. Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And of course this year they went to the— George Kraemer: Well, this year’s different. [LAUGHTER] Marjorie Kraemer: --the tournaments. But when our daughter and son were in high school, they were always going to tournaments. And I always had to take kids and chaperone, you know? Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming. George Kraemer: Ah, it was our pleasure. Franklin: I see that you’ve brought some things. Would we be able to scan those and keep them with part of your—with your interview? George Kraemer: You can have those. That’s my work history. Franklin: Okay, great, we’ll scan this and put this with your interview, too. George Kraemer: And she’s got some pictures there, too. Franklin: Are these family pictures, or--? Marjorie Kraemer: No, these are pictures of— George Kraemer: No, they’re-- Marjorie Kraemer: Out at Hanford. This is one when I worked out at the Area. This was a million man hours without an accident, you know? Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Marjorie Kraemer: And they had a fashion show. And this is me right here in radiation outfit, you know, that we modeled the—we modeled the outfits they wore in the contaminated labs and all that. Franklin: And which one are you? Are you the one in the white cowl? Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I’m the one right—with the— Franklin: Okay. Marjorie Kraemer: All covered up. Franklin: Yeah, kind of a little hard to tell. That’s great. That’s a great picture. Ah, yup, General Electric Photo Division. Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, would we be able to scan these and put them with your interview? George Kraemer: Yeah. Franklin: That would be wonderful. Okay. Great. Well, thank you again, thank you both so much. ITts been a really excellent interview. George Kraemer: Good! Marjorie Kraemer: Thank you. Franklin: You did good. <a href="https://youtu.be/cnCDk351BVY">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:57:59 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area 703 Building B Plant N Reactor T Plant Tank Farm Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ~1955-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ~1955-1991 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy Sharon Tate Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer Description An account of the resource An interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12-09-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/25">George and Marjorie Kraemer, Oral History Metadata</a> 100 Area 1955 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area 703 Building Award Awards B Plant Battelle Cold War General Electric Hanford Kennedy Kennewick Mountain Mountains N Reactor PUREX Quonset hut Quonset huts Stores T Plant Tank Farm Tank Farms Theater War Westinghouse