44 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F605480c5189ab88620eb4ce4c88c346b.jpg 948e60f722c1b8c3f6e03d4f9b390793 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7dece928876ec7412725f0693ee6f691.mp4 351ae54ec78722e6db03c479171eb012 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Backman Description An account of the resource An interview with George Backman conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1352a8f7f26ecbe0c8bf9497266200c7.jpg e03639954e2d625b7670383e01aa50a6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe089d768cfbc1580a325ba62d26a581a.mp4 1a5d0b226d8d91e261ba39aaba60fd79 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Franklin, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Boice, George Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: Okay. Robert Franklin: You ready, Tom? Hungate: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George Boice on July 15th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Boice about his experiences living in Richland. So why don’t we start at the beginning, that’s the best place. When and where were you born? George Boice: I was born in Ellensburg. A third generation native of the state of Washington. My father and my grandmother were born in Cle Elum. Franklin: Oh, Wow. Boice: We came through this—the tribe came through this territory and crossed the White Bluffs ferry in 1885. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: And went up to the Kittitas County area. And then we came back later. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What year were you born? Boice: ’37. Franklin: ’37. Did your family work at all at the coal mine in Roslyn? Boice: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Short answers. My grandmother’s brother, Uncle Tony, was a mine rescue worker up there at Roslyn. Franklin: Okay. Boice: You go up to Roslyn, that is interesting. Ever been there? Franklin: Yes, I have. Boice: 27 cemeteries. Just neater than all get out. [LAUGHTER] The different ethnic groups up there. They talk about one Fourth of July, the Italians were going to raise the Italian flag in the main street there. Some of the local citizens took a dim view of it. And some wagons were turned on their side and the Winchesters came out, and the sweet little old lady got out there and got everybody calmed down before the shooting started. [LAUGHTER] But the flag didn’t go up. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So what brought your family down to the Hanford area? Boice: My—[LAUGHTER] When they started Hanford—Dad was a firefighter in Ellensburg, had been for a few years. And when they set up Hanford, the first thing they did for a fire department was pick up the retired fire chief out of Yakima. Well, he goes around to the local fire departments and starts hydrating citizens. [LAUGHTER] So, Dad came down here in ’43 as the ninth man hired at the Hanford Fire Department. Always claimed that half of them had been canned before he got there. [LAUGHTER] So he went to work in ’43—June of ’43 at Hanford. We were still there at Ellensburg, and we didn’t come down here ‘til summer of ’44. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: And they were still moving prefabs in, and unloading them with rapid shape. Franklin: Did your father commute at this time, or did he live on— Boice: Uh-unh. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where did he—do you know much about his living quarters or where he lived? Boice: Yeah, there were barracks. Franklin: So he lived in the barracks? Boice: Oh, yes. Franklin: Okay. Did he come back to visit at all? Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Wasn’t but—hell, by the time you get up to the Hanford area, it’s just over the ridge. [LAUGHTER] So he’d come in every couple of weeks. Franklin: Okay. How many siblings do you have? Boice: One of each—one brother, one sister. Franklin: Older, younger? Boice: Oh, yeah. My brother was born in Kadlec in September of ’45. My sister was—well, they bracket the war. She was born about a month before it started—or right after it started. She was born in December of ’41. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And he was born September of ’45. Franklin: So can you talk a little more about your father’s job at Hanford? What did he—did he talk much about what he did, or— Boice: [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah! You know. The place is building up, it’s trying to erupt. You’ve got construction going all directions. Trailer house fires. He talked about them [EMOTIONAL]—how quick people died in them damn trailer houses. They’d go up in a matter of seconds. And there were acres of them. But yeah, it was—And the amount of nothing to do. I mean, you had time to work and then there was really no recreational facilities. He worked at a grocery store for a while in his off hours stocking milk. He said it was not unusual to work a whole shift with a forklift or a handcart walking out of the stack and filling the same slot behind the counter there. We came over twice to visit him at Hanford. Franklin: Before you moved— Boice: Yeah. Franklin: --in ’44. Okay. Boice: You drive across the Vantage Bridge, and somebody had gone through with a grader and graded out a dirt-slash-gravel road. And we drove around and down, and across the Hanford ferry into Hanford. Because you could get into Hanford; it wasn’t restricted—the town. Everything else was. So getting in and out of Hanford was no trick. Getting out of the surrounding area was. So my mom and I and my grandfather went down there. Franklin: Wow. And where did you stay? Did you just go for the day? Boice: Well, we didn’t—when I was there, we didn’t stay. We just went for the day and went home. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But Mom talks about going down and staying overnight. [LAUGHTER] She says she was not warned. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Warned about what? Boice: To keep everything you wanted nailed down. Franklin: Oh. Boice: She got up in the morning and somebody stole her girdle. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So when your family moved in summer of ’44, where did you move to? Boice: 17-1. Franklin: 17-1? Boice: That was the lot number and the house number. It is now 1033 Sanford. Franklin: Ah. Boice: It’s on the southwest corner of Sanford and Putnam. Franklin: Yup. I live right by there. Boice: We went in there and it was—they had—you can’t describe to people how they had come in there and just dozed the farmland over, staked out streets and planted houses. And hauled them in on trucks and set them down. We were fortunate—I didn’t realize how fortunate it was—in the fact that we had only come about 100 miles or so—we came in a truck. We had our stuff. Mom had her piano. And I can’t tell you how many times women would come up and bang on the door, can I play your piano? Franklin: Really? Boice: Strangers off the street. Just because it was there, and it was—so we had all kind of musical stuff. Everybody could play better than Mom could. But we had the piano. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And she had her houseplants. It was different. But there was no trees in Richland. There wasn’t three blades of grass! [LAUGHTER] You’d come in, you got a garden hose and a plastic nozzle. You hosed down your lot and it immediately became a slick, slimy mud pile. Great for kids to play in! Man, we could slide in that mud across there—it was really cool! And then when it dried up, why, it reticulated like a picture puzzle. So we’re picking chunks up and stacking them up and building houses. And Mom gets up and she’s just madder than a wet hen, so we had to put the lawn back together. [LAUGHTER] But the hose nozzles were so interesting, because when you had a plastic nozzle, but you couldn’t get anything else. There was a hardware store here, eventually, but they didn’t handle stuff like that. This was a war going on. And the ingenuity that went into lawn sprinklers would just boggle your mind! The cutest one I remember was some guy took a chunk of surgical tubing—he got a bent pipe for an uppensticker. And he stretched his hunk of surgical tubing over the end of it, turned the water on, and it was not efficiently watering his area, but he could flail water all over a half an acre! [LAUGHTER] That was one of the cuter ones. There was also no shade and no air conditioning. Franklin: Right. Boice: Coming down in a moving truck, Dad brought his carpenter tools, he brought his bench, and he set to work building an air conditioner. Now, this was the dog-gonedest thing you ever saw. He got some burlap sacks and set out there with scrap lumber in the backyard on his workbench just creating shavings out of boards. Fill these burlap sacks with wood shavings for the pads for his air conditioner. He got a motor out of I-don’t-know-what. It was an appliance motor out of something. And he whittled out this propeller out of a two-by-four. And he cranked this thing up and it sounded like a B-29. [LAUGHTER] But it would blow sort of cool air, which raised the wrath of the neighbors. Number one was the racket he was making. Number two was we had air conditioning. So immediately, guys come out of the woodwork in all directions. Guy next door was a sheet metal worker. He came home with parts to make a much better, more efficient fan that was quieter. [LAUGHTER] So they set to work building him one. [LAUGHTER] We made air conditioners—you come up with a motor, and they would come up with an air conditioner. And we would deliver them on the back of my little red wagon. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where would you put that? Like, would that just go in the window? Boice: We put it in a window. Franklin: Oh, okay. And how would you attach it to the house? Boice: Ingeniously! Most often, they would just build a rack underneath, a shelf on top, and set it up on top there. A houses, you wanted to put your air conditioner—at least about everybody did—set it at the top of the stairs where it would blow out the upstairs and cool your downstairs. They were reasonably efficient. The one thing about all the homemade air conditioners—very few of them, if any, had a recirculating system. So you had to use fresh water. This had two sides to it. You didn’t crud up your water system with alkali by reusing your water. But you did have to go out there and keep moving your hose where it drained out to water your lawn. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Wow. What kind of house did your family move into? Boice: Well, originally we had a three-bedroom prefab. Prefabs come in three sizes and five colors. And a bunch of very ingenious kids on Halloween 1944 went out and stole the damn street signs. The buses coming back off of swing shift had no earthly idea where they were going. They wandered around town, because all the houses looked alike! [LAUGHTER] Then after a while—oh, let’s see, we moved in in August, and about the following spring—because we started out school at Sacajawea and then at Christmas vacation they changed us to Marcus Whitman. But up there on Longfitt, thereabouts, I was coming home from school and here sits the roof of a prefab right out in the middle of the street. Apparently, this guy was sleeping and a windstorm come along and picked up his whole roof and set it out in the middle of the street. Thereafter they had a crew of carpenters going around fastening the rooves of the prefabs down a little tighter. Franklin: Because at that time, right, they had flat rooves. Boice: Flat rooves. Franklin: Correct? That kind of overhung a bit, something that the wind could really easily— Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --grab ahold and pop off. Do you remember when they got the gabled rooves that they all have now? Boice: No, I don’t, because I was—I think after we left, but I wouldn’t bet heavy money on it. We moved off the prefab in ’45. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And into an A house on Swift. I don’t recall when they put the gabled rooves on. Franklin: Okay. So what did your mom do? Did she work at Hanford at all? Boice: No. Franklin: No? Boice: She was a stay-at-home mom. Franklin: Stay-at-home mom? Boice: It was such an interesting place. The buses ran every 30 minutes. No charge, just go out and get on the bus. One of my main jobs was—because there was no mail delivery, everybody in Richland got their mail general delivery. So I’d take the bus, go downtown, get off at the post office, check the mail, go down to the grocery store—and there was only one—that was a brief period, but then there was only one grocery store at that time. And that’s where that ski rental shop is—kayak rental shop on the corner of Lee and GW? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That was the grocery store. The one and only. Shortly thereafter, Safeway opened up on the corner of—southwest corner of Lee and Jadwin. So things picked up. And then there was—they come up with the community center grocery store—whatever you want to call them. There was one at Thayer and Williams, which was the Groceteria. Garmo’s was out there on Stevens and Jadwin—no, Symons and something-or-other. The south end of town was—oh, nuts. He was the one that survived—Campbell’s. Campbell’s grocery store. He specialized in fresh fruit and stuff, and of the whole pile of them, he was the one that really come out of it in good shape. But the fourth one is now the school office, up there by Marcus Whitman. That was a grocery store. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But you go down, you do your post office work, and then you go and get your groceries, and if you’re lucky you get ten cents. Next bus home. You know where the Knights of Columbus Hall is out on the bypass? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That used to be—originally that was the Richland post office. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: It’s up there at Knight and GW, I think. There wasn’t a whole bunch of shopping centers. The Richland Theater was in existence. The drug store next door to it was there. After a while, the big brown building, which was everything, at that time, when it opened up it was CC Anderson’s. Then there was the dime store, and, oh, we were hot and heavy then. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you tell me a little more about your dad’s job? What would a typical day or a typical week look like for someone who worked on the fire department? Boice: On the fire department, there is no such thing as typical. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Boice: It was wild. In the beginning, they opened up—they were on shifts. Like everything was on day shifts, swing shift, graveyard. In our neighborhood, after my brother was born, we moved down to Swift and McPherson. Dad had come into town by that time. If you go behind the Richland Theater, you look real close, there’s two B houses back there. One of them’s a real B house and the other one ain’t. You look at the B houses over here, and the other one that ain’t is over here. And you look real close at the driveways. That was the original fire station that the City of Richland had going. That was the fire station when Hanford came in. Then they built a fire station on Jadwin in conjunction with the housing building and a couple other things, right across from the 700 Area, which is what they wanted, was coverage on that 700 Area. So that was the downtown fire station. And when they opened that up, why, then Dad came up out of Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: He wasn’t too long there, and they opened one up Williams off of Thayer, in behind the Groceteria and a little service station up there with a small satellite fire station. Two trucks and one crew. Dad was there for years and years and years. Franklin: How long did your dad work for Hanford or the government here? Boice: Like I say, he came in in ’43 and retired in the early ‘70s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Rode her right on through. Franklin: So what did he do when the community transitioned in ’58? Boice: They bought him! Franklin: The City of Richland did? Boice: Yup, the City of Richland bought the outstanding time and he rolled right over. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So can you talk a little bit more about growing up here? You said you went to Marcus Whitman and then to—and then what other schools did you go to? Boice: Well, like I say, there was no shade. Franklin: Right. Boice: And very few radio stations. With a good shot you could get in Yakima, Spokane, and Walla Walla, and that was about it. So we sat around in the shade, and my mother read us stories. [LAUGHTER] One of them was a book we picked up in Walla Walla about Sacajawea. She read us the entire story of Sacajawea and the Shoshones and the Lewis and Clark Expedition, et cetera, et cetera. And in ’44, they opened up Sacajawea School. Now, as everybody does, they did their darnedest to convert us kids to saying Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah. It didn’t take. [LAUGHTER] Because there was already Sacajawea State Park and everybody was using the term Sacajawea. But Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah—they tried. They gave it their level best. It didn’t take. But the time that they were doing this, Miss Jesson was a teacher there was giving us the thumbnail sketch about Sacajawea. She did a pretty good job—well, you know, she told you what she knew. And she made mention of the fact that she was married to a trapper, but they didn’t know what his name or anything about him. I says, his name was Toussaint Charbonneau. He got her off a wolf man of the minute carriage for a white buffalo robe. My status went up. [LAUGHTER] And the teachers wanted to know where in the cat hair I learned that. Well, Mom read us the book. But I’ve always liked Sacajawea School. Just kind of a kinship. We went—in ’45, they opened up Marcus Whitman. We went there ’45 was all, because when they broke for the summer, we were over by—we moved. By the next fall we were over in the area where I could go to Sacajawea again. But we were going to Marcus Whitman when Roosevelt was shot—died. So that was the event of the time. You watched the transition of one President to another. The flag ceremony—the whole thing—it was interesting for a kid. Franklin: I bet. What do you remember about during the war years that kind of focus on secrecy and security? How did that affect your life and your family’s life? Boice: You didn’t talk to nobody about nothing! [LAUGHTER] I mean, that was just the words. You didn’t talk about—if somebody asks you what your dad does, you talk about something else. It was so interesting here in the last year, I think—time goes quicker now. A whole bunch of us from that neighborhood on Swift went to a funeral—this boy’s mother—well, yeah—Bill’s mother’s 100th birthday, after the funeral they had a sit-down dinner. I happened to sit down at the table with the whole kids of the old neighborhood. And we’re talking about all this stuff, and the secrecy, and the ones you watch out for—this girl over here. Yeah. She didn’t share the secrets with the neighbors when they were talking about who’s got butter on sale. They didn’t tell her anymore. She fried her food in butter. So no one would tell her where the butter sales were when it was available. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was there any mention of the work going on at Hanford at school that you can remember? Boice: The one thing of what was going on, and it wasn’t the work at Hanford, because nobody talked about that. But when the Japs were sending over the firebombs— Franklin: Yeah, the balloon bombs. Boice: Yes. We were told to write no letters, tell nobody, because they didn’t want it to get out how blinking effective they were. Franklin: Right. The fear of these bombs from the sky— Boice: They were hitting, and they were working. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: You guys are in the right position to find out. But there was a rumor going around that a balloon-loaded Jap had landed out there in the area and they caught him and bundled him up and carted him off before they did any business. Okay, la-di-da-di-da. There’s rumors about one thing and another. And four or five years ago, CNN or one of these, they were talking about the weather balloons. They showed the colored pictures taken out here at Hanford of the balloons landing in the BPA lines and burning up. [LAUGHTER] End of speech, end of story. [LAUGHTER] But I was surprised to find out that something had happened. There was no soldiers attached or anything else, but there was an incident. Franklin: Yeah, we’ve—there are a couple confirmed reports of—we actually did an oral history with a gentleman whose father had been a patrolman and had seen one of the balloons land and had to chase it down and didn’t realize right away that it was—had explosives attached to it. The others—there’s a couple reports of them touching down onsite. And there was a family that was killed in Idaho where they were picnicking and a balloon came down. Boice: Idaho or Oregon? Franklin: I think it was—oh, that’s right, maybe it was Oregon. Boice: K Falls. Franklin: Yes. Boice: You go to the museum in Klamath Falls had the—or when I went through it—I was working down there twenty years ago or so—they had a big display of the family that was picnicking and the kids went to prod on it, and it went off and killed a girl. Franklin: Yeah. Were there—when you were—so we’re still in the World War II era and we’ll definitely get to the Cold War in a bit—but were there any kind of—what do you remember about like emergency procedures in school? Was there anything special, kind of drills or something during World War II? Boice: You mean the duck-and-cover? Franklin: Yeah, that kind of stuff. Was there any duck-and-cover during World War II? Boice: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Of course—my kindergarten days—now, man. Lived across the street from the college there at Ellensburg, and firebombs were to be worried about. But I was covered. I had a bucket full of sand and a shovel, and it was there on the front porch. When the firebomb came through there, I was going to put my sand on it. So we were prepared. God help us if it landed any place else. [LAUGHTER] But the beginning of the war when I was a kid in Ellensburg was so funny, because we were living right across the street from the college and everything was just the standard college. And the war started, and immediately, there’s all these people running around here that can’t count. Hup, two, three, four. Hup, two, three, four. I wasn’t even in kindergarten, and I knew about my ones! [LAUGHTER] And there was—you go across the street and around the corner, and there was this one half basement room where I could stand there and watch the guys play shirts-and-skins basketball. And the next time I looked, here’s a skeleton of a single engine aircraft, and a guy instructing people on how to make dead stick landing. Now, of all the damned things for a four-year-old kid to remember, dead stick landings was what he was talking about. And they had this thing skeletonized where they could show the internal workings of all the aeronautics. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But in Richland—oh, yes. Duck-and-cover fire drills. But they never talked about nuclear, because it was yet to be discovered. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. So Ellensburg then quickly became inundated with—the state college there became a training area? Boice: Oh, yeah. Just that fast. Franklin: Wow. In your notes here, I also see you mentioned about the heavy military presence and the olive drab everywhere and the cops in Army uniforms. Boice: [LAUGHTER] It absolutely was. Richland was strictly OD. I think they only had one bucket of paint. But all the vehicles were olive drab. The buses were, on today’s standards, I’ll call them a three-quarter size school bus painted olive drab. The vehicles were anything they could scrounge up, because I remember two GIs in a ’37 Chev coupe, and I know today some farmer had taken the trunk out and made a pickup box out of it. But they scrounged this thing up someplace, painted it OD, and here’s the MPs running around in a ’37 Chev pickup. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: [LAUGHTER] A homemade pickup? Boice: Yeah. It was years later that I found out—Dad didn’t say anything about it, and he certainly knew—that it was simple, because the war was going on. Everything was prioritized. But they had unlimited supply of uniforms. So they put the cops in soldiers’ uniforms; the firemen were in Navy uniforms. The firemen stood out and were very easily recognizable, but you couldn’t tell the soldiers and the cops apart, because they all had the same stuff on. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. A couple oral histories we’ve done with people that were children in Richland, a couple of them mentioned their fathers had taken them onsite somewhat clandestinely. Did your father ever take you onsite into a secured area? Boice: No. Franklin: Did you ever get access to any of that some way? Boice: No, I did not go to any secured area. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was raised running in and out of fire stations. To this day, when I go through the door of a fire station, my hands go into my pockets. You’re allowed to touch nothing. Because you leave fingerprints. [LAUGHTER] It’s just a genuine reflex. Franklin: Yeah! So you said that you went to Sacajawea, then to Marcus Whitman then back to Sacajawea. Then where did you go to high school? Boice: We went through all of the—I’ll call it the school construction. They couldn’t build schools fast enough in Richland. Franklin: I bet. Boice: We had double shifts. Now they have these temporary quarters—whatever you call them. But we had hutments. Sacajawea had six hutments out there. They built the hutments, and then they went to double shifts. So you went to school at 8:00, and at noon they marched out, teacher and all, and our class marched in, and we went home at 4:30 or 5:00, something like that. So we went through all of that, and then in ’49, they opened Carmichael. A brand new junior high school, man, this is cool! And I was in the seventh grade in Carmichael and I are still the proud possessor of ASB cord 001, 1949, Carmichael Junior High School. The first one they ever gave out. [LAUGHTER] And that was neat, to have a real hard-built school. It was—oh, we had class. After three months, we moved to Kennewick. The Kennewick school system— Franklin: Your family did, or--? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Dad stayed in Richland, but they were selling off. And if you didn’t have priority, the houses went to the guy that was there first. And in that A house, we were in second, so we were not in line to buy the house. Franklin: Right. Boice: So, Dad got a piece of property in Kennewick and we moved to Kennewick. And what a school system mess. Franklin: Why? Boice: They were behind. They couldn’t get money quick enough. They couldn’t build stuff fast enough. They had the red brick building—forget what it was called. It had been a high school at one time, and they pressed it back into service. It was so overcrowded you couldn’t believe it. But they finally built the high school that’s there now. It opened in ’52, I believe. ’51—yeah, class of ’52 was the first one to graduate—’52 or ’53. Graduated from Erwin S. Black Senior High School. And it was Erwin S. Black Senior High School one year. Because he was the school superintendent, and they built the school—they named the school in his honor because he had gone to bat and made trips back and forth to Washington, DC to cash some money to use for the school system. Then they got in a shooting match with the Tri-City Herald. [LAUGHTER] And Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard got run out of town, and they chiseled his name off the front of the school. But for one year it was E.S. Black. Franklin: And then it just became Kennewick High School. Boice: It became Kennewick High School. Franklin: Can you talk a little bit more about this disagreement between Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard and the Tri-City Herald? Boice: It was several things. One of them, there was a book—and I can’t recall—Magruder? McGregor? Somebody. It was a history book, and it mentioned communism. And that was brought up and made a big deal. This was back in the McCarthy era. Franklin: Right. Boice: That was brought out. And there was a lot of talk—Black was a certified building inspector, and he inspected the construction of the high school. It was said by a lot of people that it wasn’t up to standards; that the concrete wasn’t what it should have been. And I don’t know what the specs were. I wasn’t into concrete work at that time. I have been later. But I know when we were hanging the benches in the ag shop, where you would put a concrete anchor in the wall ordinarily and it would hold, they didn’t there. And they had to through-bolt through the wall to get to things to hang. So there was—and transfer of equipment and stuff—this was swapped for that, and that was swapped for this—and I don’t remember that, and the only guy I know that did know has died. [LAUGHTER] But one of the kids that graduated from Erwin S. Black, one of the few that was in that class, worked with him off and on and was aware of what went on. Franklin: When you said that there was a book that mentioned communism, did it mention it in a favorable light, or did it just make a mention to communism? Boice: More or less, it just made a mention. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was on the—oh, we had the open house at the school, and I was one of the tour guides. Yeah, I showed them the book and what it had to say. And I don’t recall anything drastic. Franklin: So then did you graduate from Kennewick High School? Boice: No. [LAUGHTER] The military had a hell of a sale. Anybody that enlisted by the first of February got the Korean GI Bill of Rights. And those that enlisted afterwards didn’t. So I drug up in January and joined the Air Force. Franklin: Oh. Without graduating. Boice: Without graduating. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Boice: So I served my illustrious military career in a photo lab in Mountain Home, Idaho. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how long were you in the Air Force? Boice: Two years. Franklin: Two years, and then you were discharged? Boice: Yes, yup, yup. Franklin: When you were in school, you mentioned being in school during this McCarthy era, one of the real hot points of the Cold War. Can you talk a little bit about the civil defense procedures and kind of the general feeling of that time as it related to—because I imagine with Hanford so close, and now knowing what was being produced there, that would have been a likely target. It’s a major part of the nuclear weapons stockpile. So can you talk a little bit about that time and just the general feeling? Boice: Well, you knew what was going to happen—or what they said was gonna happen. It was the duck-and-cover thing. And we had drills. A lot of what they said what was gonna happen—now they talk about getting into water to modulate it. Then, it was one of the things that they didn’t want you to do. Because we had the irrigation ditch that was running right alongside of the schools. But then they didn’t want you to get into it. So, it’s changed. They had the civil defense procedures—Radiant Cleaners, they’re in Kennewick. They had panel delivery cleaner trucks. They were rigged for emergency ambulances. They had fold-down bunks in them; they could handle four people. [LAUGHTER] It was taken serious. Franklin: Did you feel any particular sense of worry, or did it not seem to really affect you, your daily life or your psychological— Boice: It never bothered me ‘til years afterwards. When they talked about the Green Run, where they turned a bunch of that stuff loose, just to see what it would do to the citizens and count the drift on it. The people that had—the down-winders, and the people that had the thyroid problems. My sister was one of the first rounds that went to court over that. Franklin: Really? Boice: Because she was—we moved into Richland. She had her third birthday in the prefab, when they were still practicing how to build this stuff. And then we moved in on a farm where the alfalfa grew, the cow ate it, gave them milk, and everything was recycled and nothing went over the fence. And so it bothered me, then, that they used us as guinea pigs. But the other hand, they really didn’t know what in the cat hair that they were doing in a lot of cases. The nuclear waste? You’ve heard about the radioactive rabbit turds. Franklin: I have. Boice: You have? Franklin: Yes, I have, but why don’t you mention that? Boice: I was working with Vitro out here—’72, I think it was. The radioactivity, of course, is settled on the sagebrush. And the rabbits went around eating the leaves, just leaving fat, dumb and happy, and concentrating everything into the rabbit turds. And they were contemplating taking the top six inches of about two or three sections and burying it. Only they couldn’t decide where they had to build the hole. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: When you—you mentioned just a minute ago that you were on a farm, and you had the cows that would have eaten the tainted alfalfa—was your milk ever tested? Or did anyone ever come and-- Boice: Nah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: test your—Were you ever tested for—or your family, anybody in your family, ever tested for radiation? Because I know that they, at one point, had those Whole Body Counters that they would test—some children in Pasco were tested through those machines? Boice: You ever been through a Whole Body Counter? Franklin: I have not been through a Whole Body Counter. Boice: Depending on where you’re at, there may or may not be a—they’re kind of a joke. Now, when I was working here at Vitro, we went through the Whole Body thing, and they were serious. I mean, before we got cleared out, we went through the chamber, and we were counted. I went to work in South Carolina. They—as far as I was concerned—were very sloppy with their radiation handling and their checking and their radiation monitoring. We had a hand-and-foot monitoring station where we was going in and out of. You stick your hands in and they check it, and your feet were there at the same time. Well, this one time, I come up pretty hot, so I found an RM. I says, that machine gave me a bad reading. Oh, he says, that machine’s no good anyway. Come around to this other one over here and we’ll check you out. Well, if the blinking thing’s no good, why in the cat hair are we using it?! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, just a second ago, you mentioned you were working for Vitro? Boice: Uh-huh. Franklin: What is or was Vitro? Boice: What was Vitro? Okay. Vitro Engineering—and I don’t know how many times the name changed hands. But these guys were the ones that laid out the City of Richland—laid out the Hanford Projects. These were the strictly insiders. There was pictures on a wall of my grade school buddy’s dad, who I remember being a surveyor in Richland there. And these guys—this has gone on forever, and they were a pretty dug-in organization. To the point that they were not really aware that there was a world outside the fence. They’d heard about it, but they weren’t too sure it existed. [LAUGHTER] But I ended up at Vitro, and we did the Tank Farms that they’re having problems with, the hot tanks? We were in on the modification of that farm. We surveyed in there quite a bit. Whenever they show the pictures on TV, they always show you the evaporation facility. They show you that same picture. Warren Wolfe and I—I say Warren and I—it’s a little—our crew brought that up out of the ground, and we modified the tank farm, and we laid out the construction on that building from the ground right through the top. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And I was very fortunate, because all my surveying experience to that point was with the railroads and pipelines and longline work. Construction surveying was new to me. And I got throwed in with an old boy that was good at it. [LAUGHTER] And I learned a bunch working with him. And rolled right over, later on, into Hanford, too. We got in on the end of that—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Hanford II? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, as--T-O-O. And which building was this that you and Warren Wolfe and your crew built? Boice: All I remember is the evaporation facility. Franklin: What was your specific job at Vitro? Were you a surveyor? Boice: I was a surveyor. I was an instrument man. You get in the hot zones—we got inside the Canyon Building on several different occasions. And you got suited up, and I was instructed very specifically and emphatically to touch nothing, because anything that got crapped up, they kept. And we couldn’t get the instruments crapped up. But that stuff was so hot that the paper—the Rite-in-the-Rain books have got a specific paper there that has pitch in it or something—it attracts radioactivity like a sponge. And when they kept the notes, then one of us would stay inside and the other guy would get out in the clean zone, and we’d have to transcribe all the notes, because that book was so hot that they wouldn’t let it out of the area. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: There was some weird stuff going on. Franklin: Any other— Boice: Yeah, but there’s some I ain’t gonna talk about. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We came so close to having a nuclear disaster, it wasn’t even funny. We were good. We were awful good. And we were fast. And we were set up out there on an offset, and Rosie the labor foreman come over. Somebody said you needed a shot here for a hole for a penetration into the tank. Man, we whipped that out and figured the pull and what it was gonna take. Swung over there, put a distance and an angle, drove the stake in the ground. I figured that Warren checked it, and away we went. We come back in a week or so, or a few days later, we were back in that same farm. And Rosie comes over there and he says, would you guys check that again? Because these guys was digging a hole there and they’re supposed to hit a tank. And we checked it. And I lied, and Warren swore to it. [LAUGHTER] We forgot we was on a ten-foot offset. So they’re digging clear to one side of this tank, and just good solid dirt. Had we been just half as screwed-up as we were, they would have gone right down the edge of that tank with a core drill. And we’d have had ooey-gooeys all over the place. They talked to us. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Kind of a happy accident, right? Boice: Yeah, we were—I’ll never forget Warren’s work. He’d come back with the boss and he says, name me one guy in this world ever got through this life being perfect. He says, always pissed me off, he’s a damned carpenter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So you went to—you joined the Air Force, you went to Idaho for two years. When you came back—or what did you do after that? Did you come back to Richland after? Boice: We were living in Kennewick. Franklin: Living in Kennewick. Boice: And I was working at the Washington Hardware Store. And this kid—we were working on cars in my buddy’s garage. And this guy comes through and he’s surveying for the Corps. And he talked that they were setting up a photogrammetry section. Well, heck, that’s what I was doing in the service. So, I beat feet over to Walla Walla to sign up to lay out photo mosaics. And they say, we haven’t got enough work for fulltime at that job. Are you a draftsman? No, I are not a draftsman. He says, would you take a job surveying? You bet. I became a surveyor. [LAUGHTER] And we worked from the mouth of the Deschutes River to Lewiston, Idaho. The first thing was the mouth of the Deschutes to McNary Dam—we mapped from the water level to the top of the bluffs by hand. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And then we went through, starting in ’58, and we inventoried the railroad. Now, when you inventory a railroad, we inventoried a railroad. Everything they possessed was put down. First, you go through and you measure and put stations—mark station markings on the rails. 80 miles of them. Then you go back and you reference everything the railroad’s got. Ties, spikes, tie plates, rails, joints, joint bars—if the fence moves, how far did it move, from what to what? If the rail changes, if there’s an isolation joint in there, you put that in. When you come to a switch, you measure everything that’s in the switch facility. You go—everything that that railroad has got. You become very, very familiar with railroads. [LAUGHTER] And then we went ahead, and we built railroads clear up to Lewistown. We handled a railroad layout real heavy. When they—are you familiar with the Marmes men? Franklin: Yes. Boice: Luck of the draw, I was on that. Because we were the—call it the resident survey crew in that area. Franklin: Oh. Boice: And we were babysitting construction. Make sure they got sticks out ahead of them, make sure that things are checked out behind them. They’re putting in a detour, why, check that out. They’re building a bridge, make sure it’s set up right, and check it out when they get done. So, first they call up and they say, there’s a guy down here at the mouth of the Palouse River thinks he hit something, and he wants an elevation on this cave, see where the water’s gonna come when they raise the water behind Lower Monumental, I believe. Franklin: Yeah, I think that sounds right. Boice: Is that the dam? So we went down there and run him in an elevation, painted it on the cave face. Happily on our way. Well, they hit pay dirt. [LAUGHTER] They dug up bones. So we were called back. They wanted—because the drillers were in there then doing sub-cell drilling of what’s down there. So we got to come in there and locate their holes so they know where what is. That was interesting. The whole thing. Now that the world has got into this Ice Age floods and stuff, I wish so heavily that I knew then what I know now. Because the layers that they went through were very definitely visible. This thing had been covered in various floods. But it was so interesting, the stuff that they found. Because it became an international incident. One of the coolest cats in the whole joint was Pono the Greek. And Pono run the sluice box. He had been all over the world. When the girls dug everything out, then they took the dirt to Pono, and he washed it down. Pono found thread of somebody’s sewing. Then they found the needle. And that to me was so cool. They had this needle that looked for all the world like a darning needle. How in the blazes they cut that eye in there! This was a really heads-up organization. [LAUGHTER] Interesting. Very interesting. Franklin: Yeah, that was a very significant archaeological find. Boice: I’ve got to go back some day and talk to that doctor. At an anniversary of something, we’re down here at Columbia Park, and he was talking and I showed up there with the historical society doing something-or-other. And I talked to him for about five minutes. He mentioned the fact that he wanted to see the guy that painted that elevation. I said, well, you’re looking at him. [LAUGHTER] It was—I got to go talk to him. Because one of the things in their report—they talked that the ditch was dug with a Cat. Now, I ain’t saying they’re wrong, because I didn’t see any digging when I was there. But just—as you’re going up and looking at a hole, and in those days we had looked at a bunch of holes—we were inspectors. They were going behind the soils guys. And it just to me had all the appearance of somebody that dug a ditch with a dragline. And I always figured it was a dragline in there, and somebody said it was a Cat. I don’t totally agree with him. But the bones were so interesting. They said that the one thing about the site was there had been somebody living on it forever. Just, the further down you went, the more primitive they became, ‘til you got past the layer of the Mazama ash, when Crater Lake blew its top. And they went past Mazama ash and suddenly things looked pretty sophisticated. That’s where the needle came from and a few other things. It was neat. I’d have liked to spend more time with them. Franklin: Yeah. I’m sure you heard about the dam failing and the site flooding after they—because they created the protective dam around the shelter, and that failed and let water in. Boice: It didn’t fail! The SOB was never built to hold! When they brought us down there to check these drill holes out, the drillers—we had other stuff to do that morning, and we didn’t get down there until 10:00. The driller had a half-a-dozen holes in. I’m talking to this old driller, and he says, they ain’t never gonna keep water out of that thing, because there’s a layer of palm wood down there and it’s gonna leak like a sieve. But they did it anyway. And we’re down there checking on settlement pins and a whole bunch of other stuff when the water’s coming up. But we’re all on the radio, and it’s like a big one-party line—you can hear what’s going on no matter where. And they’re putting in pumps, and the more pumps they put in, the more water they sprayed out, but noting changed. [LAUGHTER] So it’s a lovely fishing pond. But interesting: it was shortly thereafter that I quit the corps and went to Alaska. Within a year-and-a-half, two years, I’m up there doing the same thing, only instead of spotting holes in the ground, we’re spotting oil wells. And sitting in a warm-up shack, talking to a driller, and he made mention of the fact that they had spudded oil wells. Now, when they spud an oil well, they get in there with an oversized auger, like you’re setting telephone poles. And they go down there through the mud and the blood and the crud ‘til they get to solid rock. And then they bring in the drills. And he says, we have yet to spud a well here that we didn’t get palm wood. And that has always sat with me. Now, when they’re talking about global warming—if there has been palm trees growing at the mouth of the Palouse River, and palm trees growing at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, it’s been a lot warmer than people are willing to talk about. [LAUGHTER] Just boggles my mind that there is palm wood in Alaska as well as Marmes Rockshelter. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So you were—Marmes, then Alaska. When did you come to work for Vitro at Hanford? Boice: That was a pretty short season. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: At Hanford, or in Alaska? Boice: At Vitro. Oh, at Alaska I worked for various contractors. But Vitro—we didn’t philosophically match. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. Boice: Their minds were all inside the fence. And I’m too antagonistic. [LAUGHTER] If we had a problem—thou shalt not speak bad of Vitro. And we’re laying out penetrations on top of a tank. And they’re all done. Radius and angle—which radius is—and they had them at different stages there, and other people had been doing them. And this tank had been there for quite a—not quite a while, but every once in a while someone would come in and set some more holes, set some more holes. Well, they didn’t continue their circle around—nobody closed the circle. So by the time we get there ‘til the end, we have to figure out by adding up each and every hole all the way around the circle at every different radius to get the dimensions to where we’re at. Where if the guy had closed out his circle, you could have backed him out and been out of there in about a tenth the time. So I happened to make the statement, I said, Vitro drafting strikes again. And I was a marked man. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long in total, then, did you work out on the Hanford site? Boice: Well, in ’56-’57, or ’57-’58, they were doing a lot of military work out there. And we did the roads up Rattlesnake—was in on that. The road up Saddle Mountain. A lot of RADAR sites. You’re aware of the Nike sites on— Franklin: Yup. Boice: --the north side of the river over there? Franklin: Yup. Boice: Been there, done that. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So—that wasn’t for Vitro, was that when you were with— Boice: That was the Corps. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And we also did a lot of work up at Moses Lake. Franklin: Okay. Boice: All the runway extensions up there, we were in on. They throwed us in the clink. They did not like our very presence. Franklin: Why? Boice: Apparently Moses Lake had two different structures. There was the Strategic Air Command structure up there, and there was the Military Air Transport Service. I didn’t know the difference. Les was—we were doing some mapping work. And the three of us were just gonna run some levels out to the next site we were gonna work at. And we took off the BM—benchmark—at the control tower. And we get about two turns out across the flight line there. And a bunch of guys come out, like a changing of the guard or something. Two or three of them stopped to talk to Kirby and George. The other five come out along, and they walked, just formed a circle around me, and they wanted to know if I wanted to go with them. They had submachine guns and a whole bunch of other stuff, and I said, heck, there’s nothing I’d rather do! [LAUGHTER] So they called up Walla Walla and they verified our existence. Then we had to go through security and get badges to—and we’d been working on that thing off-and-on for months. But we just hadn’t stepped in the right zone. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They were just kind of waiting for you, then, to— Boice: Just different—different bunch of stuff. Franklin: Right. When you were in school in Kennewick, so after the—or even just after the word was out about the Hanford site, after August 6th, 1945, when you were in school, did they teach anything about Hanford history? Was it— Boice: Go back to August 6th. Franklin: Okay. Boice: What a day. [EMOTIONAL] What a wonderful day! I’d been down at the Village Theater—now the Richland Theater. I don’t even remember what was playing. But we came out, [EMOTIONAL] and the bells were ringing. The church down there, they were ringing their bells. And everybody was whooping it up—the war was over! And I’ll never forget, some gal in there alongside the street, she had half a dozen kids with garbage can lids and a parade going, and they’re banging and clanging. And the festivities that the war was over. And then we went back and they came out with the thing and Truman said, It’s the Atomic Bomb, and that’s what we’ve been building. And Mom went over and talked to the lady next door. She mentioned the U-235. And the gal says, they didn’t talk about that, did they? And she’d been keeping files, and her husband had been working on it. And neither of them would ever admit that they knew what the other one was doing. It was that tight. And the security in Richland. The FBI knew everybody in town, because it was not uncommon—it was a regular thing that they would come around and they would talk to you, and ask about him. And then they’d go talk to him and ask about you. It was just—it was what was going on. We didn’t know why. Well, after that—yeah, after it came out what was going on out there, then we knew what was there. But until Truman come out and said, here’s what was going on, we didn’t know. Franklin: What about V-J Day? Was that a separate kind of a big celebration? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Was that as big as the news of the bomb drop? Or was the bomb drop more of a pivotal moment here in the— Boice: Well, the V-J Day, the end of the war, was the big day. That’s the celebration that I’ll never forget. Franklin: Can you talk about it? Boice: June—you heard about Harry Truman, didn’t you? When he come out to Hanford? Franklin: No. Boice: [LAUGHTER] The head of security was a guy by the name of McHale. And Dad worked pretty close with him with the fire department because everything was safety and security and if you had a problem, see McHale. Now, the guy had taken—he was pretty much high up in intelligence—but he had assumed the position of a first sergeant. And Sarge McHale was the guy. No matter what happened, Sarge McHale. Harry Truman did a fantastic job, and made his reputation just going from plant to plant—the Truman Investigating Committee, cutting down waste. And I guess he did a heck of a job. But he come out to Hanford and demanded to be let in. Franklin: Sorry, was this when he was Vice President or President? Boice: He was a senator! Franklin: Senator—Senator Harry Truman. Okay. Boice: And he comes there and demands to be let in. And of course, the guard says, McHale! And McHale comes over there and meets him head-on. He says, I’m Senator Truman, and I demand to be let in. McHale says, I don’t give a damn if you’re President of the United States; you ain’t coming in here. And he didn’t. Well, years later, and I believe it was when they were dedicating the Elks Club in Pasco, Truman was back up in this area. And he was President. And he come out to Hanford and he looked up McHale. And he said, uh-huh, you son of a bitch, you didn’t think I’d make ‘er, did ya? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s a great story. [LAUGHTER] But thank you. So after the war was over, was what went on at Hanford taught in school? Was there mention of the work at Hanford that built the bomb? Was that part of the curriculum here in town? Boice: The local lore. Franklin: The local lore, but nothing in the school at all? Boice: Not that I recall. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Everything was—there was a terrific amount of pride. The Atomic City, the atomic this, the atomic that. The first barber shop quartet come to town, when GE left—no, DuPont left, GE come in, four guys come in from Schenectady, New York with a barber shop quartet. First ones I ever saw. And they were the Atomic City Four. And the next one were the Nuclear Notes. [LAUGHTER] But there was an atomic pride, all over the area. Then there was the people that thought we should be ashamed of it. That we had built this device that killed a whole bunch of people. Franklin: Now, were these people in the community? Or people outside? Boice: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Franklin: And this was right at the time— Boice: Oh, no, no, no. This is-- Franklin: Later? Boice: Last week? [LAUGHTER] Last few years ago, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I got my—I’m still behind Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Screwed up and all. Back to Vitro for a little bit. Like I say, they were—the organization that literally purchased and built the city of Richland—now, at that time I was flying, and I was flying out of the Richland airport. And there was an old geezer out there called Norm. Norm flew the bench. He was always on the bench out in front of the airport, there. And if somebody just going up to burn up some hours or play, why, Norm was willing to go along. I saw Norm and I hauled him around and then I went back to work for Vitro. And Pritchard brought this guy through—it was Norm! Norm had been the head of real estate when the entire city of Richland and the whole Hanford Project was bought. He was in charge of it. And he retired and trained his successor, who died. And he trained the next guy, who died. So they had Norm on a retainer. Just to ride dirt on real estate. Quite an interesting character! Franklin: Yeah, I bet. I think I’d kind of like to return about something we were just talking about a minute ago, where you were talking about people that—especially in the later years that have been critical of Hanford. I’d like to get more of your feelings on that. On how you feel about that, or kind of what part of their argument or their viewpoint that you don’t agree with. Boice: They were talking about—well, first there was the Richland High School and their bomb insignia. It was felt that they were making a big deal or prideful about this terrible event. And I always go back to a group from Japan that came over and were very critical of Richland for the same thing. And the gentleman who was interviewing them or was talking to them, when they got done, informed them in no uncertain terms, that we were invited very unceremoniously into that war, and we’re sorry if you didn’t like the way we ended it. [LAUGHTER] You get to researching, I’d like to bring up, why didn’t they drop the bomb on Tokyo? Because there was nothing left on Tokyo to injure. If you read about Curt LeMay and the Strategic Air Command and the bombing of Japan, he had eliminated that thing down to—the B-29 was supposed to be a high altitude bomber. And it wasn’t as great at it as it was advertised to be. But they had eliminated the defenses. And they made the B-29 into a low-level trucking company, and they were just hauling stuff over and unloading it. And the firebombing of Tokyo—the movies they showed us in the Air Force was something to behold. I mean, they—it was so much worse than what happened at Nagasaki or Hiroshima, either one. He was told to save two or three targets—clean targets. And when they come over there with the bombs, then they used these clean targets and saw what they could do. Of the four devices—the four nuclear devices, we used—was it four or three in World War II? Franklin: Are you referring to— Boice: All but one of them came from Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: The first one at Los Alamos was plutonium. And then Hiroshima was Oak Ridge. Franklin: Yup. Boice: And then Nagasaki was plutonium. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: But there’s those that—and there were at the time, there was a big discussion on, should we demonstrate to them what this thing could do? And the big argument was, what if it doesn’t do? What if you drop it and it don’t do nothing? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Interesting. Can you speak to—or do you remember anything about the Civil Rights era in the Tri-Cities? Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: There were reports of—you know, it’s known that Kennewick was kind of a sun-down town, and that many minorities were forced to live in East Pasco. And that during the war— [NEW CLIP] Franklin: There had been a sizable African American population at Hanford, but that after the war many of them left. So I was wondering if you could speak to the Civil Rights action you might have seen or you might have observed or anything in the Tri-Cities? Boice: Well, I was up in Lewiston when their civil rights march come through. But it was well-advertised. People knew what was gonna happen. And I was at the hardware store, and there’s a black cement finisher I’d worked with building houses in Pasco. I says, Leroy! You gonna come march on Kennewick? He said, [AFFECTED DIALECT] shee-it. I wantsta live in Kennewick just about as bad as you wantsta live in East Pasco. [LAUGHTER] They had a march on Kennewick—a bunch of people that—I am told, because I was living in Lewiston, and I was in Lewiston at the time. But there’s a group out of Seattle and a group out of Portland come up to Pasco, and they marched across the bridge. They marched down Avenue C, up Washington Street, down Kennewick Avenue. And Kennewick yawned. Nobody particularly cared. They got to the Methodist church, and the groups come out and says, you look hot. Come on in and have some lemonade. They sat down at the church, had lemonade and went home. And that was the civil rights march in Kennewick. But there is—when I was there growing up, there were no blacks in Kennewick. There were blacks in Pasco, and there were no blacks in Richland. With the exception—the guy that run the shoeshine parlor at Ganzel’s barbershop lived in the basement, and they tell me that there was two black porters at the Hanford House. And that was the total black population of Richland. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But they were not welcome in Kennewick. It wasn’t that big a deal when I was walking down Kennewick Avenue when a couple of black guys—they were bums, hobos—come walking down Main Street, you might as well say. And a cop pulled up and says, the railroad tracks are two blocks down that way. They go east and west. Either one will get you out of town. And they went to the railroad track. I always figured that the blacks wanted to move to Kennewick because they couldn’t stand to live next to the blacks in Pasco. [LAUGHTER] And if you want to get right down to it, well, all that hooping and hollering they do right now, you go down to Fayette, Mississippi, which is 98.645% black, and all the blacks in Mississippi can live in Fayette and nobody cares. Go down to Van Horn, Texas, which is all Mexicans, and they can all live in Van Horn, Texas, and nobody cares. But you let half a dozen white guys go up in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and they just have yourself a storm. Why, these are a bunch of white separatists! If everybody else can live together, why can’t the whites? Franklin: Interesting. Some might say they were kind of starting a separatist movement up there, I think—claiming their own territory, and— Boice: So what? Franklin: Well, living together communally is often different from claiming that you don’t—aren’t subject to the law, the jurisdiction of the United States. Boice: Nobody said that they weren’t subject to the law. Franklin: Well-- Boice: They kept trying to integrate Prudhoe, but he kept getting cold and going home. Franklin: Oh, in Alaska? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Yeah. Boice: They had a heck of a time keeping Prudhoe integrated. Because them black people do not like cold weather! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I don’t think a lot of people like cold weather. Boice: It was a big joke when we went down south there, to work at Savannah River. Because—hell, we’d come out of here and it was Thanksgiving. It was cold. We got down there, of course, if you’re traveling you’re gonna get nightshift. We left having the cold weather here at night down there. And I says, that’s okay, you’ll get yours come summertime when it heats up. But surprisingly—and I was really surprised that they didn’t take the hot weather any better than we did. I mean, it was miserably hot, but they were just as big a problem as a rest of us. Franklin: I imagine it’s quite a bit more humid down there, though, with the—when it gets hot, you know. Because the heat with the humidity is— Boice: Yeah, it is. Franklin: --much worse than the dry heat. Boice: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Or any question I haven’t asked you that you think I should— Boice: I don’t know what it would be. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, we’ve really gone—really jumped all over the place. It’s been great. Anyone else have any questions? Hungate: No, the only question—you said you’d done some work with the railroad. What railroad? Boice: Name one. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: All railroads? Union Pacific, all the different--? Boice: Yes. Right now they’re talking about the oil trains, and their problems with them tipping over? I wonder how long it’s gonna take them to get to the problem. In the beginning, railroads were 39-foot rails bolted together. Measured mile after mile after mile of it. Then in about, oh, the middle ‘60s—’67, thereabouts, ’66—when they were putting in the SP&S, that’s now the BN—the Burlington Northern on the Washington side. They went with quarter-mile steel. And the first question that we had as surveyors—because you’re constantly working with the expansion and contraction of steel—was how are they going to control that in long rails? Because if you’re working on railroads very long, first thing you realize is do not sit on the joints in a hot day. You get your butt pinched! [LAUGHTER] When those tracks expand. So we brought this up and the first thing they told us was, well, they’ve got special steel and it’s only going to expand sideways. Well, that story lasted about as long as it took when they started putting it together. Because when they started—they’d set up a factory down here, if you’ll call it that. Brought in 39-foot un-punched rail, and just rolled her off, welded her together and ground down the joints and put her in quarter-mile sections. They were very particular when they put it in at the temperature that they laid that down on, where before—you know what a creeper is? Okay, it’s a kind of a hairpin device that you put over the rail so that it will slide less. But in the old days, the 39-foot rail very seldom saw any creepers. When they put that quarter-mile steel together, you saw a lot of creepers. Now they have gone to ribbon rail. They welded the quarter-mile steel together. You drive down to Portland, and you look at that rail, and you’re gonna go a long ways before you see a joint. There at Quinton and Washman’s dip—which don’t mean a thing to you guys—[LAUGHTER] about a mile post from 120-whatever, they have got a creeper on each—alongside of each and every tie. I mean, they were using creepers like they were going out of style. To me, the expansion’s the thing that they got to worry about, but then they should have figured this out because they’re running it. But it’s a factor. You got to factor it in when you’re doing a pipeline, when you’re doing a railroad. When we were doing the pipeline, Maurice Smith of British Petroleum, who was the head pipeline engineer, I had lunch with him. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t like we sit down at a specified lunch—he dropped in at the chow hall I was eating and sat down at our table. So we got to talking about it. And that was the question I brought up, was how are you going to handle the expansion in the steel? And he says—he admitted it was a heck of a problem. And that you got to run as many Ss as you can so that it’ll take up and accordion itself. And when you’ve got a long straight stretch, it’s gonna give you problems. [LAUGHTER] Because it’s gonna go someplace. And that’s the thing that—after they started the quarter-mile steel, a couple of years later, we had a hot summer. The article in the Tri-City Herald called it the long, hot summer, where we had over 90 days of over 90-degree weather. But they were cutting chunks out of that railroad to keep her on the road bed. And at that time, when the SP&S was having these problems, the UP was laughing at them. They said, we tried this stuff in Wyoming. It didn’t work. And they’re using 39-foot stuff, and it was just whistling down the road. But now I see that they’re using the ribbon rail like everybody else. I can’t see how it’s gonna work, but the they’re doing it. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t my role! [LAUGHTER] The other one was the Camas Prairie. And that starts out, oh, about ten miles above Ice Harbor Dam, thereabouts, breaks loose, and goes clear up past Lewiston, up into Grangeville, Idaho. That’s a crazy little river. Franklin: That’s the one that they filmed that Charles Bronson movie. Boice: Breakheart Pass? Franklin: Breakheart Pass, yeah. Boice: Yeah, that was done up there. You get into railroad history—this area is knee-deep in it. Vollard was the great character in that. He started out with a little portage railroad around Idaho Falls and that area. And then he got the Walla Walla line—I call it the WWWWW&WWW line—Walla Walla, Waitsburg, Washtucna and Washington Wail Woad—which was a money maker. But he ended up getting a lineup from Portland out here. And then when they started building the Northern Pacific, they were building from both ends, and he was hauling Northern Pacific rail over his tracks and taking it out in railroad stock. By the time they got connected over in Montana, he owned a sizable chunk of the railroad. [LAUGHTER] And it was—you get into that railroad history, and it’s just takeover checkers. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much, George. Boice: Okay! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It was a pleasure talking to you. And, yeah, thanks for coming in today. Boice: All righty. Write if you find work! [LAUGHTER] Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1956-1958 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Wolfe, Warren Truman, Harry Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Boice Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Description An account of the resource An interview with George Boice conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-6-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-8-12: Metadata v1 created – [RG] FBI Housing Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F34757e7991c0b4302f581c36d6f31141.jpg b57899b4456572c689b8c6aaa528cfed https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F583865462e4fa6396d8d362c783d5ae2.mp4 1a5d0b226d8d91e261ba39aaba60fd79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Boice Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: Okay. Robert Franklin: You ready, Tom? Hungate: Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George Boice on July 15th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Boice about his experiences living in Richland. So why don’t we start at the beginning, that’s the best place. When and where were you born? George Boice: I was born in Ellensburg. A third generation native of the state of Washington. My father and my grandmother were born in Cle Elum. Franklin: Oh, Wow. Boice: We came through this—the tribe came through this territory and crossed the White Bluffs ferry in 1885. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: And went up to the Kittitas County area. And then we came back later. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What year were you born? Boice: ’37. Franklin: ’37. Did your family work at all at the coal mine in Roslyn? Boice: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Short answers. My grandmother’s brother, Uncle Tony, was a mine rescue worker up there at Roslyn. Franklin: Okay. Boice: You go up to Roslyn, that is interesting. Ever been there? Franklin: Yes, I have. Boice: 27 cemeteries. Just neater than all get out. [LAUGHTER] The different ethnic groups up there. They talk about one Fourth of July, the Italians were going to raise the Italian flag in the main street there. Some of the local citizens took a dim view of it. And some wagons were turned on their side and the Winchesters came out, and the sweet little old lady got out there and got everybody calmed down before the shooting started. [LAUGHTER] But the flag didn’t go up. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So what brought your family down to the Hanford area? Boice: My—[LAUGHTER] When they started Hanford—Dad was a firefighter in Ellensburg, had been for a few years. And when they set up Hanford, the first thing they did for a fire department was pick up the retired fire chief out of Yakima. Well, he goes around to the local fire departments and starts hydrating citizens. [LAUGHTER] So, Dad came down here in ’43 as the ninth man hired at the Hanford Fire Department. Always claimed that half of them had been canned before he got there. [LAUGHTER] So he went to work in ’43—June of ’43 at Hanford. We were still there at Ellensburg, and we didn’t come down here ‘til summer of ’44. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: And they were still moving prefabs in, and unloading them with rapid shape. Franklin: Did your father commute at this time, or did he live on— Boice: Uh-unh. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where did he—do you know much about his living quarters or where he lived? Boice: Yeah, there were barracks. Franklin: So he lived in the barracks? Boice: Oh, yes. Franklin: Okay. Did he come back to visit at all? Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Wasn’t but—hell, by the time you get up to the Hanford area, it’s just over the ridge. [LAUGHTER] So he’d come in every couple of weeks. Franklin: Okay. How many siblings do you have? Boice: One of each—one brother, one sister. Franklin: Older, younger? Boice: Oh, yeah. My brother was born in Kadlec in September of ’45. My sister was—well, they bracket the war. She was born about a month before it started—or right after it started. She was born in December of ’41. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And he was born September of ’45. Franklin: So can you talk a little more about your father’s job at Hanford? What did he—did he talk much about what he did, or— Boice: [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah! You know. The place is building up, it’s trying to erupt. You’ve got construction going all directions. Trailer house fires. He talked about them [EMOTIONAL]—how quick people died in them damn trailer houses. They’d go up in a matter of seconds. And there were acres of them. But yeah, it was—And the amount of nothing to do. I mean, you had time to work and then there was really no recreational facilities. He worked at a grocery store for a while in his off hours stocking milk. He said it was not unusual to work a whole shift with a forklift or a handcart walking out of the stack and filling the same slot behind the counter there. We came over twice to visit him at Hanford. Franklin: Before you moved— Boice: Yeah. Franklin: --in ’44. Okay. Boice: You drive across the Vantage Bridge, and somebody had gone through with a grader and graded out a dirt-slash-gravel road. And we drove around and down, and across the Hanford ferry into Hanford. Because you could get into Hanford; it wasn’t restricted—the town. Everything else was. So getting in and out of Hanford was no trick. Getting out of the surrounding area was. So my mom and I and my grandfather went down there. Franklin: Wow. And where did you stay? Did you just go for the day? Boice: Well, we didn’t—when I was there, we didn’t stay. We just went for the day and went home. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But Mom talks about going down and staying overnight. [LAUGHTER] She says she was not warned. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Warned about what? Boice: To keep everything you wanted nailed down. Franklin: Oh. Boice: She got up in the morning and somebody stole her girdle. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So when your family moved in summer of ’44, where did you move to? Boice: 17-1. Franklin: 17-1? Boice: That was the lot number and the house number. It is now 1033 Sanford. Franklin: Ah. Boice: It’s on the southwest corner of Sanford and Putnam. Franklin: Yup. I live right by there. Boice: We went in there and it was—they had—you can’t describe to people how they had come in there and just dozed the farmland over, staked out streets and planted houses. And hauled them in on trucks and set them down. We were fortunate—I didn’t realize how fortunate it was—in the fact that we had only come about 100 miles or so—we came in a truck. We had our stuff. Mom had her piano. And I can’t tell you how many times women would come up and bang on the door, can I play your piano? Franklin: Really? Boice: Strangers off the street. Just because it was there, and it was—so we had all kind of musical stuff. Everybody could play better than Mom could. But we had the piano. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And she had her houseplants. It was different. But there was no trees in Richland. There wasn’t three blades of grass! [LAUGHTER] You’d come in, you got a garden hose and a plastic nozzle. You hosed down your lot and it immediately became a slick, slimy mud pile. Great for kids to play in! Man, we could slide in that mud across there—it was really cool! And then when it dried up, why, it reticulated like a picture puzzle. So we’re picking chunks up and stacking them up and building houses. And Mom gets up and she’s just madder than a wet hen, so we had to put the lawn back together. [LAUGHTER] But the hose nozzles were so interesting, because when you had a plastic nozzle, but you couldn’t get anything else. There was a hardware store here, eventually, but they didn’t handle stuff like that. This was a war going on. And the ingenuity that went into lawn sprinklers would just boggle your mind! The cutest one I remember was some guy took a chunk of surgical tubing—he got a bent pipe for an uppensticker. And he stretched his hunk of surgical tubing over the end of it, turned the water on, and it was not efficiently watering his area, but he could flail water all over a half an acre! [LAUGHTER] That was one of the cuter ones. There was also no shade and no air conditioning. Franklin: Right. Boice: Coming down in a moving truck, Dad brought his carpenter tools, he brought his bench, and he set to work building an air conditioner. Now, this was the dog-gonedest thing you ever saw. He got some burlap sacks and set out there with scrap lumber in the backyard on his workbench just creating shavings out of boards. Fill these burlap sacks with wood shavings for the pads for his air conditioner. He got a motor out of I-don’t-know-what. It was an appliance motor out of something. And he whittled out this propeller out of a two-by-four. And he cranked this thing up and it sounded like a B-29. [LAUGHTER] But it would blow sort of cool air, which raised the wrath of the neighbors. Number one was the racket he was making. Number two was we had air conditioning. So immediately, guys come out of the woodwork in all directions. Guy next door was a sheet metal worker. He came home with parts to make a much better, more efficient fan that was quieter. [LAUGHTER] So they set to work building him one. [LAUGHTER] We made air conditioners—you come up with a motor, and they would come up with an air conditioner. And we would deliver them on the back of my little red wagon. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where would you put that? Like, would that just go in the window? Boice: We put it in a window. Franklin: Oh, okay. And how would you attach it to the house? Boice: Ingeniously! Most often, they would just build a rack underneath, a shelf on top, and set it up on top there. A houses, you wanted to put your air conditioner—at least about everybody did—set it at the top of the stairs where it would blow out the upstairs and cool your downstairs. They were reasonably efficient. The one thing about all the homemade air conditioners—very few of them, if any, had a recirculating system. So you had to use fresh water. This had two sides to it. You didn’t crud up your water system with alkali by reusing your water. But you did have to go out there and keep moving your hose where it drained out to water your lawn. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Wow. What kind of house did your family move into? Boice: Well, originally we had a three-bedroom prefab. Prefabs come in three sizes and five colors. And a bunch of very ingenious kids on Halloween 1944 went out and stole the damn street signs. The buses coming back off of swing shift had no earthly idea where they were going. They wandered around town, because all the houses looked alike! [LAUGHTER] Then after a while—oh, let’s see, we moved in in August, and about the following spring—because we started out school at Sacajawea and then at Christmas vacation they changed us to Marcus Whitman. But up there on Longfitt, thereabouts, I was coming home from school and here sits the roof of a prefab right out in the middle of the street. Apparently, this guy was sleeping and a windstorm come along and picked up his whole roof and set it out in the middle of the street. Thereafter they had a crew of carpenters going around fastening the rooves of the prefabs down a little tighter. Franklin: Because at that time, right, they had flat rooves. Boice: Flat rooves. Franklin: Correct? That kind of overhung a bit, something that the wind could really easily— Boice: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --grab ahold and pop off. Do you remember when they got the gabled rooves that they all have now? Boice: No, I don’t, because I was—I think after we left, but I wouldn’t bet heavy money on it. We moved off the prefab in ’45. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And into an A house on Swift. I don’t recall when they put the gabled rooves on. Franklin: Okay. So what did your mom do? Did she work at Hanford at all? Boice: No. Franklin: No? Boice: She was a stay-at-home mom. Franklin: Stay-at-home mom? Boice: It was such an interesting place. The buses ran every 30 minutes. No charge, just go out and get on the bus. One of my main jobs was—because there was no mail delivery, everybody in Richland got their mail general delivery. So I’d take the bus, go downtown, get off at the post office, check the mail, go down to the grocery store—and there was only one—that was a brief period, but then there was only one grocery store at that time. And that’s where that ski rental shop is—kayak rental shop on the corner of Lee and GW? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That was the grocery store. The one and only. Shortly thereafter, Safeway opened up on the corner of—southwest corner of Lee and Jadwin. So things picked up. And then there was—they come up with the community center grocery store—whatever you want to call them. There was one at Thayer and Williams, which was the Groceteria. Garmo’s was out there on Stevens and Jadwin—no, Symons and something-or-other. The south end of town was—oh, nuts. He was the one that survived—Campbell’s. Campbell’s grocery store. He specialized in fresh fruit and stuff, and of the whole pile of them, he was the one that really come out of it in good shape. But the fourth one is now the school office, up there by Marcus Whitman. That was a grocery store. Franklin: Okay. Boice: But you go down, you do your post office work, and then you go and get your groceries, and if you’re lucky you get ten cents. Next bus home. You know where the Knights of Columbus Hall is out on the bypass? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: That used to be—originally that was the Richland post office. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Boice: It’s up there at Knight and GW, I think. There wasn’t a whole bunch of shopping centers. The Richland Theater was in existence. The drug store next door to it was there. After a while, the big brown building, which was everything, at that time, when it opened up it was CC Anderson’s. Then there was the dime store, and, oh, we were hot and heavy then. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you tell me a little more about your dad’s job? What would a typical day or a typical week look like for someone who worked on the fire department? Boice: On the fire department, there is no such thing as typical. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Boice: It was wild. In the beginning, they opened up—they were on shifts. Like everything was on day shifts, swing shift, graveyard. In our neighborhood, after my brother was born, we moved down to Swift and McPherson. Dad had come into town by that time. If you go behind the Richland Theater, you look real close, there’s two B houses back there. One of them’s a real B house and the other one ain’t. You look at the B houses over here, and the other one that ain’t is over here. And you look real close at the driveways. That was the original fire station that the City of Richland had going. That was the fire station when Hanford came in. Then they built a fire station on Jadwin in conjunction with the housing building and a couple other things, right across from the 700 Area, which is what they wanted, was coverage on that 700 Area. So that was the downtown fire station. And when they opened that up, why, then Dad came up out of Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: He wasn’t too long there, and they opened one up Williams off of Thayer, in behind the Groceteria and a little service station up there with a small satellite fire station. Two trucks and one crew. Dad was there for years and years and years. Franklin: How long did your dad work for Hanford or the government here? Boice: Like I say, he came in in ’43 and retired in the early ‘70s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Rode her right on through. Franklin: So what did he do when the community transitioned in ’58? Boice: They bought him! Franklin: The City of Richland did? Boice: Yup, the City of Richland bought the outstanding time and he rolled right over. Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So can you talk a little bit more about growing up here? You said you went to Marcus Whitman and then to—and then what other schools did you go to? Boice: Well, like I say, there was no shade. Franklin: Right. Boice: And very few radio stations. With a good shot you could get in Yakima, Spokane, and Walla Walla, and that was about it. So we sat around in the shade, and my mother read us stories. [LAUGHTER] One of them was a book we picked up in Walla Walla about Sacajawea. She read us the entire story of Sacajawea and the Shoshones and the Lewis and Clark Expedition, et cetera, et cetera. And in ’44, they opened up Sacajawea School. Now, as everybody does, they did their darnedest to convert us kids to saying Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah. It didn’t take. [LAUGHTER] Because there was already Sacajawea State Park and everybody was using the term Sacajawea. But Sah-CAH-jah-wee-ah—they tried. They gave it their level best. It didn’t take. But the time that they were doing this, Miss Jesson was a teacher there was giving us the thumbnail sketch about Sacajawea. She did a pretty good job—well, you know, she told you what she knew. And she made mention of the fact that she was married to a trapper, but they didn’t know what his name or anything about him. I says, his name was Toussaint Charbonneau. He got her off a wolf man of the minute carriage for a white buffalo robe. My status went up. [LAUGHTER] And the teachers wanted to know where in the cat hair I learned that. Well, Mom read us the book. But I’ve always liked Sacajawea School. Just kind of a kinship. We went—in ’45, they opened up Marcus Whitman. We went there ’45 was all, because when they broke for the summer, we were over by—we moved. By the next fall we were over in the area where I could go to Sacajawea again. But we were going to Marcus Whitman when Roosevelt was shot—died. So that was the event of the time. You watched the transition of one President to another. The flag ceremony—the whole thing—it was interesting for a kid. Franklin: I bet. What do you remember about during the war years that kind of focus on secrecy and security? How did that affect your life and your family’s life? Boice: You didn’t talk to nobody about nothing! [LAUGHTER] I mean, that was just the words. You didn’t talk about—if somebody asks you what your dad does, you talk about something else. It was so interesting here in the last year, I think—time goes quicker now. A whole bunch of us from that neighborhood on Swift went to a funeral—this boy’s mother—well, yeah—Bill’s mother’s 100th birthday, after the funeral they had a sit-down dinner. I happened to sit down at the table with the whole kids of the old neighborhood. And we’re talking about all this stuff, and the secrecy, and the ones you watch out for—this girl over here. Yeah. She didn’t share the secrets with the neighbors when they were talking about who’s got butter on sale. They didn’t tell her anymore. She fried her food in butter. So no one would tell her where the butter sales were when it was available. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was there any mention of the work going on at Hanford at school that you can remember? Boice: The one thing of what was going on, and it wasn’t the work at Hanford, because nobody talked about that. But when the Japs were sending over the firebombs— Franklin: Yeah, the balloon bombs. Boice: Yes. We were told to write no letters, tell nobody, because they didn’t want it to get out how blinking effective they were. Franklin: Right. The fear of these bombs from the sky— Boice: They were hitting, and they were working. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: You guys are in the right position to find out. But there was a rumor going around that a balloon-loaded Jap had landed out there in the area and they caught him and bundled him up and carted him off before they did any business. Okay, la-di-da-di-da. There’s rumors about one thing and another. And four or five years ago, CNN or one of these, they were talking about the weather balloons. They showed the colored pictures taken out here at Hanford of the balloons landing in the BPA lines and burning up. [LAUGHTER] End of speech, end of story. [LAUGHTER] But I was surprised to find out that something had happened. There was no soldiers attached or anything else, but there was an incident. Franklin: Yeah, we’ve—there are a couple confirmed reports of—we actually did an oral history with a gentleman whose father had been a patrolman and had seen one of the balloons land and had to chase it down and didn’t realize right away that it was—had explosives attached to it. The others—there’s a couple reports of them touching down onsite. And there was a family that was killed in Idaho where they were picnicking and a balloon came down. Boice: Idaho or Oregon? Franklin: I think it was—oh, that’s right, maybe it was Oregon. Boice: K Falls. Franklin: Yes. Boice: You go to the museum in Klamath Falls had the—or when I went through it—I was working down there twenty years ago or so—they had a big display of the family that was picnicking and the kids went to prod on it, and it went off and killed a girl. Franklin: Yeah. Were there—when you were—so we’re still in the World War II era and we’ll definitely get to the Cold War in a bit—but were there any kind of—what do you remember about like emergency procedures in school? Was there anything special, kind of drills or something during World War II? Boice: You mean the duck-and-cover? Franklin: Yeah, that kind of stuff. Was there any duck-and-cover during World War II? Boice: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Of course—my kindergarten days—now, man. Lived across the street from the college there at Ellensburg, and firebombs were to be worried about. But I was covered. I had a bucket full of sand and a shovel, and it was there on the front porch. When the firebomb came through there, I was going to put my sand on it. So we were prepared. God help us if it landed any place else. [LAUGHTER] But the beginning of the war when I was a kid in Ellensburg was so funny, because we were living right across the street from the college and everything was just the standard college. And the war started, and immediately, there’s all these people running around here that can’t count. Hup, two, three, four. Hup, two, three, four. I wasn’t even in kindergarten, and I knew about my ones! [LAUGHTER] And there was—you go across the street and around the corner, and there was this one half basement room where I could stand there and watch the guys play shirts-and-skins basketball. And the next time I looked, here’s a skeleton of a single engine aircraft, and a guy instructing people on how to make dead stick landing. Now, of all the damned things for a four-year-old kid to remember, dead stick landings was what he was talking about. And they had this thing skeletonized where they could show the internal workings of all the aeronautics. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But in Richland—oh, yes. Duck-and-cover fire drills. But they never talked about nuclear, because it was yet to be discovered. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. So Ellensburg then quickly became inundated with—the state college there became a training area? Boice: Oh, yeah. Just that fast. Franklin: Wow. In your notes here, I also see you mentioned about the heavy military presence and the olive drab everywhere and the cops in Army uniforms. Boice: [LAUGHTER] It absolutely was. Richland was strictly OD. I think they only had one bucket of paint. But all the vehicles were olive drab. The buses were, on today’s standards, I’ll call them a three-quarter size school bus painted olive drab. The vehicles were anything they could scrounge up, because I remember two GIs in a ’37 Chev coupe, and I know today some farmer had taken the trunk out and made a pickup box out of it. But they scrounged this thing up someplace, painted it OD, and here’s the MPs running around in a ’37 Chev pickup. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: [LAUGHTER] A homemade pickup? Boice: Yeah. It was years later that I found out—Dad didn’t say anything about it, and he certainly knew—that it was simple, because the war was going on. Everything was prioritized. But they had unlimited supply of uniforms. So they put the cops in soldiers’ uniforms; the firemen were in Navy uniforms. The firemen stood out and were very easily recognizable, but you couldn’t tell the soldiers and the cops apart, because they all had the same stuff on. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. A couple oral histories we’ve done with people that were children in Richland, a couple of them mentioned their fathers had taken them onsite somewhat clandestinely. Did your father ever take you onsite into a secured area? Boice: No. Franklin: Did you ever get access to any of that some way? Boice: No, I did not go to any secured area. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was raised running in and out of fire stations. To this day, when I go through the door of a fire station, my hands go into my pockets. You’re allowed to touch nothing. Because you leave fingerprints. [LAUGHTER] It’s just a genuine reflex. Franklin: Yeah! So you said that you went to Sacajawea, then to Marcus Whitman then back to Sacajawea. Then where did you go to high school? Boice: We went through all of the—I’ll call it the school construction. They couldn’t build schools fast enough in Richland. Franklin: I bet. Boice: We had double shifts. Now they have these temporary quarters—whatever you call them. But we had hutments. Sacajawea had six hutments out there. They built the hutments, and then they went to double shifts. So you went to school at 8:00, and at noon they marched out, teacher and all, and our class marched in, and we went home at 4:30 or 5:00, something like that. So we went through all of that, and then in ’49, they opened Carmichael. A brand new junior high school, man, this is cool! And I was in the seventh grade in Carmichael and I are still the proud possessor of ASB cord 001, 1949, Carmichael Junior High School. The first one they ever gave out. [LAUGHTER] And that was neat, to have a real hard-built school. It was—oh, we had class. After three months, we moved to Kennewick. The Kennewick school system— Franklin: Your family did, or--? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, okay. Boice: Dad stayed in Richland, but they were selling off. And if you didn’t have priority, the houses went to the guy that was there first. And in that A house, we were in second, so we were not in line to buy the house. Franklin: Right. Boice: So, Dad got a piece of property in Kennewick and we moved to Kennewick. And what a school system mess. Franklin: Why? Boice: They were behind. They couldn’t get money quick enough. They couldn’t build stuff fast enough. They had the red brick building—forget what it was called. It had been a high school at one time, and they pressed it back into service. It was so overcrowded you couldn’t believe it. But they finally built the high school that’s there now. It opened in ’52, I believe. ’51—yeah, class of ’52 was the first one to graduate—’52 or ’53. Graduated from Erwin S. Black Senior High School. And it was Erwin S. Black Senior High School one year. Because he was the school superintendent, and they built the school—they named the school in his honor because he had gone to bat and made trips back and forth to Washington, DC to cash some money to use for the school system. Then they got in a shooting match with the Tri-City Herald. [LAUGHTER] And Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard got run out of town, and they chiseled his name off the front of the school. But for one year it was E.S. Black. Franklin: And then it just became Kennewick High School. Boice: It became Kennewick High School. Franklin: Can you talk a little bit more about this disagreement between Erwin S. Black and the schoolboard and the Tri-City Herald? Boice: It was several things. One of them, there was a book—and I can’t recall—Magruder? McGregor? Somebody. It was a history book, and it mentioned communism. And that was brought up and made a big deal. This was back in the McCarthy era. Franklin: Right. Boice: That was brought out. And there was a lot of talk—Black was a certified building inspector, and he inspected the construction of the high school. It was said by a lot of people that it wasn’t up to standards; that the concrete wasn’t what it should have been. And I don’t know what the specs were. I wasn’t into concrete work at that time. I have been later. But I know when we were hanging the benches in the ag shop, where you would put a concrete anchor in the wall ordinarily and it would hold, they didn’t there. And they had to through-bolt through the wall to get to things to hang. So there was—and transfer of equipment and stuff—this was swapped for that, and that was swapped for this—and I don’t remember that, and the only guy I know that did know has died. [LAUGHTER] But one of the kids that graduated from Erwin S. Black, one of the few that was in that class, worked with him off and on and was aware of what went on. Franklin: When you said that there was a book that mentioned communism, did it mention it in a favorable light, or did it just make a mention to communism? Boice: More or less, it just made a mention. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I was on the—oh, we had the open house at the school, and I was one of the tour guides. Yeah, I showed them the book and what it had to say. And I don’t recall anything drastic. Franklin: So then did you graduate from Kennewick High School? Boice: No. [LAUGHTER] The military had a hell of a sale. Anybody that enlisted by the first of February got the Korean GI Bill of Rights. And those that enlisted afterwards didn’t. So I drug up in January and joined the Air Force. Franklin: Oh. Without graduating. Boice: Without graduating. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Boice: So I served my illustrious military career in a photo lab in Mountain Home, Idaho. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how long were you in the Air Force? Boice: Two years. Franklin: Two years, and then you were discharged? Boice: Yes, yup, yup. Franklin: When you were in school, you mentioned being in school during this McCarthy era, one of the real hot points of the Cold War. Can you talk a little bit about the civil defense procedures and kind of the general feeling of that time as it related to—because I imagine with Hanford so close, and now knowing what was being produced there, that would have been a likely target. It’s a major part of the nuclear weapons stockpile. So can you talk a little bit about that time and just the general feeling? Boice: Well, you knew what was going to happen—or what they said was gonna happen. It was the duck-and-cover thing. And we had drills. A lot of what they said what was gonna happen—now they talk about getting into water to modulate it. Then, it was one of the things that they didn’t want you to do. Because we had the irrigation ditch that was running right alongside of the schools. But then they didn’t want you to get into it. So, it’s changed. They had the civil defense procedures—Radiant Cleaners, they’re in Kennewick. They had panel delivery cleaner trucks. They were rigged for emergency ambulances. They had fold-down bunks in them; they could handle four people. [LAUGHTER] It was taken serious. Franklin: Did you feel any particular sense of worry, or did it not seem to really affect you, your daily life or your psychological— Boice: It never bothered me ‘til years afterwards. When they talked about the Green Run, where they turned a bunch of that stuff loose, just to see what it would do to the citizens and count the drift on it. The people that had—the down-winders, and the people that had the thyroid problems. My sister was one of the first rounds that went to court over that. Franklin: Really? Boice: Because she was—we moved into Richland. She had her third birthday in the prefab, when they were still practicing how to build this stuff. And then we moved in on a farm where the alfalfa grew, the cow ate it, gave them milk, and everything was recycled and nothing went over the fence. And so it bothered me, then, that they used us as guinea pigs. But the other hand, they really didn’t know what in the cat hair that they were doing in a lot of cases. The nuclear waste? You’ve heard about the radioactive rabbit turds. Franklin: I have. Boice: You have? Franklin: Yes, I have, but why don’t you mention that? Boice: I was working with Vitro out here—’72, I think it was. The radioactivity, of course, is settled on the sagebrush. And the rabbits went around eating the leaves, just leaving fat, dumb and happy, and concentrating everything into the rabbit turds. And they were contemplating taking the top six inches of about two or three sections and burying it. Only they couldn’t decide where they had to build the hole. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: When you—you mentioned just a minute ago that you were on a farm, and you had the cows that would have eaten the tainted alfalfa—was your milk ever tested? Or did anyone ever come and-- Boice: Nah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: test your—Were you ever tested for—or your family, anybody in your family, ever tested for radiation? Because I know that they, at one point, had those Whole Body Counters that they would test—some children in Pasco were tested through those machines? Boice: You ever been through a Whole Body Counter? Franklin: I have not been through a Whole Body Counter. Boice: Depending on where you’re at, there may or may not be a—they’re kind of a joke. Now, when I was working here at Vitro, we went through the Whole Body thing, and they were serious. I mean, before we got cleared out, we went through the chamber, and we were counted. I went to work in South Carolina. They—as far as I was concerned—were very sloppy with their radiation handling and their checking and their radiation monitoring. We had a hand-and-foot monitoring station where we was going in and out of. You stick your hands in and they check it, and your feet were there at the same time. Well, this one time, I come up pretty hot, so I found an RM. I says, that machine gave me a bad reading. Oh, he says, that machine’s no good anyway. Come around to this other one over here and we’ll check you out. Well, if the blinking thing’s no good, why in the cat hair are we using it?! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, just a second ago, you mentioned you were working for Vitro? Boice: Uh-huh. Franklin: What is or was Vitro? Boice: What was Vitro? Okay. Vitro Engineering—and I don’t know how many times the name changed hands. But these guys were the ones that laid out the City of Richland—laid out the Hanford Projects. These were the strictly insiders. There was pictures on a wall of my grade school buddy’s dad, who I remember being a surveyor in Richland there. And these guys—this has gone on forever, and they were a pretty dug-in organization. To the point that they were not really aware that there was a world outside the fence. They’d heard about it, but they weren’t too sure it existed. [LAUGHTER] But I ended up at Vitro, and we did the Tank Farms that they’re having problems with, the hot tanks? We were in on the modification of that farm. We surveyed in there quite a bit. Whenever they show the pictures on TV, they always show you the evaporation facility. They show you that same picture. Warren Wolfe and I—I say Warren and I—it’s a little—our crew brought that up out of the ground, and we modified the tank farm, and we laid out the construction on that building from the ground right through the top. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And I was very fortunate, because all my surveying experience to that point was with the railroads and pipelines and longline work. Construction surveying was new to me. And I got throwed in with an old boy that was good at it. [LAUGHTER] And I learned a bunch working with him. And rolled right over, later on, into Hanford, too. We got in on the end of that—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Hanford II? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, as--T-O-O. And which building was this that you and Warren Wolfe and your crew built? Boice: All I remember is the evaporation facility. Franklin: What was your specific job at Vitro? Were you a surveyor? Boice: I was a surveyor. I was an instrument man. You get in the hot zones—we got inside the Canyon Building on several different occasions. And you got suited up, and I was instructed very specifically and emphatically to touch nothing, because anything that got crapped up, they kept. And we couldn’t get the instruments crapped up. But that stuff was so hot that the paper—the Rite-in-the-Rain books have got a specific paper there that has pitch in it or something—it attracts radioactivity like a sponge. And when they kept the notes, then one of us would stay inside and the other guy would get out in the clean zone, and we’d have to transcribe all the notes, because that book was so hot that they wouldn’t let it out of the area. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Boice: There was some weird stuff going on. Franklin: Any other— Boice: Yeah, but there’s some I ain’t gonna talk about. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We came so close to having a nuclear disaster, it wasn’t even funny. We were good. We were awful good. And we were fast. And we were set up out there on an offset, and Rosie the labor foreman come over. Somebody said you needed a shot here for a hole for a penetration into the tank. Man, we whipped that out and figured the pull and what it was gonna take. Swung over there, put a distance and an angle, drove the stake in the ground. I figured that Warren checked it, and away we went. We come back in a week or so, or a few days later, we were back in that same farm. And Rosie comes over there and he says, would you guys check that again? Because these guys was digging a hole there and they’re supposed to hit a tank. And we checked it. And I lied, and Warren swore to it. [LAUGHTER] We forgot we was on a ten-foot offset. So they’re digging clear to one side of this tank, and just good solid dirt. Had we been just half as screwed-up as we were, they would have gone right down the edge of that tank with a core drill. And we’d have had ooey-gooeys all over the place. They talked to us. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Kind of a happy accident, right? Boice: Yeah, we were—I’ll never forget Warren’s work. He’d come back with the boss and he says, name me one guy in this world ever got through this life being perfect. He says, always pissed me off, he’s a damned carpenter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So you went to—you joined the Air Force, you went to Idaho for two years. When you came back—or what did you do after that? Did you come back to Richland after? Boice: We were living in Kennewick. Franklin: Living in Kennewick. Boice: And I was working at the Washington Hardware Store. And this kid—we were working on cars in my buddy’s garage. And this guy comes through and he’s surveying for the Corps. And he talked that they were setting up a photogrammetry section. Well, heck, that’s what I was doing in the service. So, I beat feet over to Walla Walla to sign up to lay out photo mosaics. And they say, we haven’t got enough work for fulltime at that job. Are you a draftsman? No, I are not a draftsman. He says, would you take a job surveying? You bet. I became a surveyor. [LAUGHTER] And we worked from the mouth of the Deschutes River to Lewiston, Idaho. The first thing was the mouth of the Deschutes to McNary Dam—we mapped from the water level to the top of the bluffs by hand. Franklin: Wow. Boice: And then we went through, starting in ’58, and we inventoried the railroad. Now, when you inventory a railroad, we inventoried a railroad. Everything they possessed was put down. First, you go through and you measure and put stations—mark station markings on the rails. 80 miles of them. Then you go back and you reference everything the railroad’s got. Ties, spikes, tie plates, rails, joints, joint bars—if the fence moves, how far did it move, from what to what? If the rail changes, if there’s an isolation joint in there, you put that in. When you come to a switch, you measure everything that’s in the switch facility. You go—everything that that railroad has got. You become very, very familiar with railroads. [LAUGHTER] And then we went ahead, and we built railroads clear up to Lewistown. We handled a railroad layout real heavy. When they—are you familiar with the Marmes men? Franklin: Yes. Boice: Luck of the draw, I was on that. Because we were the—call it the resident survey crew in that area. Franklin: Oh. Boice: And we were babysitting construction. Make sure they got sticks out ahead of them, make sure that things are checked out behind them. They’re putting in a detour, why, check that out. They’re building a bridge, make sure it’s set up right, and check it out when they get done. So, first they call up and they say, there’s a guy down here at the mouth of the Palouse River thinks he hit something, and he wants an elevation on this cave, see where the water’s gonna come when they raise the water behind Lower Monumental, I believe. Franklin: Yeah, I think that sounds right. Boice: Is that the dam? So we went down there and run him in an elevation, painted it on the cave face. Happily on our way. Well, they hit pay dirt. [LAUGHTER] They dug up bones. So we were called back. They wanted—because the drillers were in there then doing sub-cell drilling of what’s down there. So we got to come in there and locate their holes so they know where what is. That was interesting. The whole thing. Now that the world has got into this Ice Age floods and stuff, I wish so heavily that I knew then what I know now. Because the layers that they went through were very definitely visible. This thing had been covered in various floods. But it was so interesting, the stuff that they found. Because it became an international incident. One of the coolest cats in the whole joint was Pono the Greek. And Pono run the sluice box. He had been all over the world. When the girls dug everything out, then they took the dirt to Pono, and he washed it down. Pono found thread of somebody’s sewing. Then they found the needle. And that to me was so cool. They had this needle that looked for all the world like a darning needle. How in the blazes they cut that eye in there! This was a really heads-up organization. [LAUGHTER] Interesting. Very interesting. Franklin: Yeah, that was a very significant archaeological find. Boice: I’ve got to go back some day and talk to that doctor. At an anniversary of something, we’re down here at Columbia Park, and he was talking and I showed up there with the historical society doing something-or-other. And I talked to him for about five minutes. He mentioned the fact that he wanted to see the guy that painted that elevation. I said, well, you’re looking at him. [LAUGHTER] It was—I got to go talk to him. Because one of the things in their report—they talked that the ditch was dug with a Cat. Now, I ain’t saying they’re wrong, because I didn’t see any digging when I was there. But just—as you’re going up and looking at a hole, and in those days we had looked at a bunch of holes—we were inspectors. They were going behind the soils guys. And it just to me had all the appearance of somebody that dug a ditch with a dragline. And I always figured it was a dragline in there, and somebody said it was a Cat. I don’t totally agree with him. But the bones were so interesting. They said that the one thing about the site was there had been somebody living on it forever. Just, the further down you went, the more primitive they became, ‘til you got past the layer of the Mazama ash, when Crater Lake blew its top. And they went past Mazama ash and suddenly things looked pretty sophisticated. That’s where the needle came from and a few other things. It was neat. I’d have liked to spend more time with them. Franklin: Yeah. I’m sure you heard about the dam failing and the site flooding after they—because they created the protective dam around the shelter, and that failed and let water in. Boice: It didn’t fail! The SOB was never built to hold! When they brought us down there to check these drill holes out, the drillers—we had other stuff to do that morning, and we didn’t get down there until 10:00. The driller had a half-a-dozen holes in. I’m talking to this old driller, and he says, they ain’t never gonna keep water out of that thing, because there’s a layer of palm wood down there and it’s gonna leak like a sieve. But they did it anyway. And we’re down there checking on settlement pins and a whole bunch of other stuff when the water’s coming up. But we’re all on the radio, and it’s like a big one-party line—you can hear what’s going on no matter where. And they’re putting in pumps, and the more pumps they put in, the more water they sprayed out, but noting changed. [LAUGHTER] So it’s a lovely fishing pond. But interesting: it was shortly thereafter that I quit the corps and went to Alaska. Within a year-and-a-half, two years, I’m up there doing the same thing, only instead of spotting holes in the ground, we’re spotting oil wells. And sitting in a warm-up shack, talking to a driller, and he made mention of the fact that they had spudded oil wells. Now, when they spud an oil well, they get in there with an oversized auger, like you’re setting telephone poles. And they go down there through the mud and the blood and the crud ‘til they get to solid rock. And then they bring in the drills. And he says, we have yet to spud a well here that we didn’t get palm wood. And that has always sat with me. Now, when they’re talking about global warming—if there has been palm trees growing at the mouth of the Palouse River, and palm trees growing at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, it’s been a lot warmer than people are willing to talk about. [LAUGHTER] Just boggles my mind that there is palm wood in Alaska as well as Marmes Rockshelter. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So you were—Marmes, then Alaska. When did you come to work for Vitro at Hanford? Boice: That was a pretty short season. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: At Hanford, or in Alaska? Boice: At Vitro. Oh, at Alaska I worked for various contractors. But Vitro—we didn’t philosophically match. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. Boice: Their minds were all inside the fence. And I’m too antagonistic. [LAUGHTER] If we had a problem—thou shalt not speak bad of Vitro. And we’re laying out penetrations on top of a tank. And they’re all done. Radius and angle—which radius is—and they had them at different stages there, and other people had been doing them. And this tank had been there for quite a—not quite a while, but every once in a while someone would come in and set some more holes, set some more holes. Well, they didn’t continue their circle around—nobody closed the circle. So by the time we get there ‘til the end, we have to figure out by adding up each and every hole all the way around the circle at every different radius to get the dimensions to where we’re at. Where if the guy had closed out his circle, you could have backed him out and been out of there in about a tenth the time. So I happened to make the statement, I said, Vitro drafting strikes again. And I was a marked man. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long in total, then, did you work out on the Hanford site? Boice: Well, in ’56-’57, or ’57-’58, they were doing a lot of military work out there. And we did the roads up Rattlesnake—was in on that. The road up Saddle Mountain. A lot of RADAR sites. You’re aware of the Nike sites on— Franklin: Yup. Boice: --the north side of the river over there? Franklin: Yup. Boice: Been there, done that. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So—that wasn’t for Vitro, was that when you were with— Boice: That was the Corps. Franklin: Okay. Boice: And we also did a lot of work up at Moses Lake. Franklin: Okay. Boice: All the runway extensions up there, we were in on. They throwed us in the clink. They did not like our very presence. Franklin: Why? Boice: Apparently Moses Lake had two different structures. There was the Strategic Air Command structure up there, and there was the Military Air Transport Service. I didn’t know the difference. Les was—we were doing some mapping work. And the three of us were just gonna run some levels out to the next site we were gonna work at. And we took off the BM—benchmark—at the control tower. And we get about two turns out across the flight line there. And a bunch of guys come out, like a changing of the guard or something. Two or three of them stopped to talk to Kirby and George. The other five come out along, and they walked, just formed a circle around me, and they wanted to know if I wanted to go with them. They had submachine guns and a whole bunch of other stuff, and I said, heck, there’s nothing I’d rather do! [LAUGHTER] So they called up Walla Walla and they verified our existence. Then we had to go through security and get badges to—and we’d been working on that thing off-and-on for months. But we just hadn’t stepped in the right zone. Franklin: Oh, wow. Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They were just kind of waiting for you, then, to— Boice: Just different—different bunch of stuff. Franklin: Right. When you were in school in Kennewick, so after the—or even just after the word was out about the Hanford site, after August 6th, 1945, when you were in school, did they teach anything about Hanford history? Was it— Boice: Go back to August 6th. Franklin: Okay. Boice: What a day. [EMOTIONAL] What a wonderful day! I’d been down at the Village Theater—now the Richland Theater. I don’t even remember what was playing. But we came out, [EMOTIONAL] and the bells were ringing. The church down there, they were ringing their bells. And everybody was whooping it up—the war was over! And I’ll never forget, some gal in there alongside the street, she had half a dozen kids with garbage can lids and a parade going, and they’re banging and clanging. And the festivities that the war was over. And then we went back and they came out with the thing and Truman said, It’s the Atomic Bomb, and that’s what we’ve been building. And Mom went over and talked to the lady next door. She mentioned the U-235. And the gal says, they didn’t talk about that, did they? And she’d been keeping files, and her husband had been working on it. And neither of them would ever admit that they knew what the other one was doing. It was that tight. And the security in Richland. The FBI knew everybody in town, because it was not uncommon—it was a regular thing that they would come around and they would talk to you, and ask about him. And then they’d go talk to him and ask about you. It was just—it was what was going on. We didn’t know why. Well, after that—yeah, after it came out what was going on out there, then we knew what was there. But until Truman come out and said, here’s what was going on, we didn’t know. Franklin: What about V-J Day? Was that a separate kind of a big celebration? Boice: Yeah. Franklin: Was that as big as the news of the bomb drop? Or was the bomb drop more of a pivotal moment here in the— Boice: Well, the V-J Day, the end of the war, was the big day. That’s the celebration that I’ll never forget. Franklin: Can you talk about it? Boice: June—you heard about Harry Truman, didn’t you? When he come out to Hanford? Franklin: No. Boice: [LAUGHTER] The head of security was a guy by the name of McHale. And Dad worked pretty close with him with the fire department because everything was safety and security and if you had a problem, see McHale. Now, the guy had taken—he was pretty much high up in intelligence—but he had assumed the position of a first sergeant. And Sarge McHale was the guy. No matter what happened, Sarge McHale. Harry Truman did a fantastic job, and made his reputation just going from plant to plant—the Truman Investigating Committee, cutting down waste. And I guess he did a heck of a job. But he come out to Hanford and demanded to be let in. Franklin: Sorry, was this when he was Vice President or President? Boice: He was a senator! Franklin: Senator—Senator Harry Truman. Okay. Boice: And he comes there and demands to be let in. And of course, the guard says, McHale! And McHale comes over there and meets him head-on. He says, I’m Senator Truman, and I demand to be let in. McHale says, I don’t give a damn if you’re President of the United States; you ain’t coming in here. And he didn’t. Well, years later, and I believe it was when they were dedicating the Elks Club in Pasco, Truman was back up in this area. And he was President. And he come out to Hanford and he looked up McHale. And he said, uh-huh, you son of a bitch, you didn’t think I’d make ‘er, did ya? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s a great story. [LAUGHTER] But thank you. So after the war was over, was what went on at Hanford taught in school? Was there mention of the work at Hanford that built the bomb? Was that part of the curriculum here in town? Boice: The local lore. Franklin: The local lore, but nothing in the school at all? Boice: Not that I recall. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Everything was—there was a terrific amount of pride. The Atomic City, the atomic this, the atomic that. The first barber shop quartet come to town, when GE left—no, DuPont left, GE come in, four guys come in from Schenectady, New York with a barber shop quartet. First ones I ever saw. And they were the Atomic City Four. And the next one were the Nuclear Notes. [LAUGHTER] But there was an atomic pride, all over the area. Then there was the people that thought we should be ashamed of it. That we had built this device that killed a whole bunch of people. Franklin: Now, were these people in the community? Or people outside? Boice: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Franklin: And this was right at the time— Boice: Oh, no, no, no. This is-- Franklin: Later? Boice: Last week? [LAUGHTER] Last few years ago, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Boice: I got my—I’m still behind Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Boice: Screwed up and all. Back to Vitro for a little bit. Like I say, they were—the organization that literally purchased and built the city of Richland—now, at that time I was flying, and I was flying out of the Richland airport. And there was an old geezer out there called Norm. Norm flew the bench. He was always on the bench out in front of the airport, there. And if somebody just going up to burn up some hours or play, why, Norm was willing to go along. I saw Norm and I hauled him around and then I went back to work for Vitro. And Pritchard brought this guy through—it was Norm! Norm had been the head of real estate when the entire city of Richland and the whole Hanford Project was bought. He was in charge of it. And he retired and trained his successor, who died. And he trained the next guy, who died. So they had Norm on a retainer. Just to ride dirt on real estate. Quite an interesting character! Franklin: Yeah, I bet. I think I’d kind of like to return about something we were just talking about a minute ago, where you were talking about people that—especially in the later years that have been critical of Hanford. I’d like to get more of your feelings on that. On how you feel about that, or kind of what part of their argument or their viewpoint that you don’t agree with. Boice: They were talking about—well, first there was the Richland High School and their bomb insignia. It was felt that they were making a big deal or prideful about this terrible event. And I always go back to a group from Japan that came over and were very critical of Richland for the same thing. And the gentleman who was interviewing them or was talking to them, when they got done, informed them in no uncertain terms, that we were invited very unceremoniously into that war, and we’re sorry if you didn’t like the way we ended it. [LAUGHTER] You get to researching, I’d like to bring up, why didn’t they drop the bomb on Tokyo? Because there was nothing left on Tokyo to injure. If you read about Curt LeMay and the Strategic Air Command and the bombing of Japan, he had eliminated that thing down to—the B-29 was supposed to be a high altitude bomber. And it wasn’t as great at it as it was advertised to be. But they had eliminated the defenses. And they made the B-29 into a low-level trucking company, and they were just hauling stuff over and unloading it. And the firebombing of Tokyo—the movies they showed us in the Air Force was something to behold. I mean, they—it was so much worse than what happened at Nagasaki or Hiroshima, either one. He was told to save two or three targets—clean targets. And when they come over there with the bombs, then they used these clean targets and saw what they could do. Of the four devices—the four nuclear devices, we used—was it four or three in World War II? Franklin: Are you referring to— Boice: All but one of them came from Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: The first one at Los Alamos was plutonium. And then Hiroshima was Oak Ridge. Franklin: Yup. Boice: And then Nagasaki was plutonium. Franklin: Yeah. Boice: But there’s those that—and there were at the time, there was a big discussion on, should we demonstrate to them what this thing could do? And the big argument was, what if it doesn’t do? What if you drop it and it don’t do nothing? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Interesting. Can you speak to—or do you remember anything about the Civil Rights era in the Tri-Cities? Boice: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: There were reports of—you know, it’s known that Kennewick was kind of a sun-down town, and that many minorities were forced to live in East Pasco. And that during the war— [NEW CLIP] Franklin: There had been a sizable African American population at Hanford, but that after the war many of them left. So I was wondering if you could speak to the Civil Rights action you might have seen or you might have observed or anything in the Tri-Cities? Boice: Well, I was up in Lewiston when their civil rights march come through. But it was well-advertised. People knew what was gonna happen. And I was at the hardware store, and there’s a black cement finisher I’d worked with building houses in Pasco. I says, Leroy! You gonna come march on Kennewick? He said, [AFFECTED DIALECT] shee-it. I wantsta live in Kennewick just about as bad as you wantsta live in East Pasco. [LAUGHTER] They had a march on Kennewick—a bunch of people that—I am told, because I was living in Lewiston, and I was in Lewiston at the time. But there’s a group out of Seattle and a group out of Portland come up to Pasco, and they marched across the bridge. They marched down Avenue C, up Washington Street, down Kennewick Avenue. And Kennewick yawned. Nobody particularly cared. They got to the Methodist church, and the groups come out and says, you look hot. Come on in and have some lemonade. They sat down at the church, had lemonade and went home. And that was the civil rights march in Kennewick. But there is—when I was there growing up, there were no blacks in Kennewick. There were blacks in Pasco, and there were no blacks in Richland. With the exception—the guy that run the shoeshine parlor at Ganzel’s barbershop lived in the basement, and they tell me that there was two black porters at the Hanford House. And that was the total black population of Richland. Franklin: Wow. Boice: But they were not welcome in Kennewick. It wasn’t that big a deal when I was walking down Kennewick Avenue when a couple of black guys—they were bums, hobos—come walking down Main Street, you might as well say. And a cop pulled up and says, the railroad tracks are two blocks down that way. They go east and west. Either one will get you out of town. And they went to the railroad track. I always figured that the blacks wanted to move to Kennewick because they couldn’t stand to live next to the blacks in Pasco. [LAUGHTER] And if you want to get right down to it, well, all that hooping and hollering they do right now, you go down to Fayette, Mississippi, which is 98.645% black, and all the blacks in Mississippi can live in Fayette and nobody cares. Go down to Van Horn, Texas, which is all Mexicans, and they can all live in Van Horn, Texas, and nobody cares. But you let half a dozen white guys go up in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and they just have yourself a storm. Why, these are a bunch of white separatists! If everybody else can live together, why can’t the whites? Franklin: Interesting. Some might say they were kind of starting a separatist movement up there, I think—claiming their own territory, and— Boice: So what? Franklin: Well, living together communally is often different from claiming that you don’t—aren’t subject to the law, the jurisdiction of the United States. Boice: Nobody said that they weren’t subject to the law. Franklin: Well-- Boice: They kept trying to integrate Prudhoe, but he kept getting cold and going home. Franklin: Oh, in Alaska? Boice: Yeah! Franklin: Yeah. Boice: They had a heck of a time keeping Prudhoe integrated. Because them black people do not like cold weather! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I don’t think a lot of people like cold weather. Boice: It was a big joke when we went down south there, to work at Savannah River. Because—hell, we’d come out of here and it was Thanksgiving. It was cold. We got down there, of course, if you’re traveling you’re gonna get nightshift. We left having the cold weather here at night down there. And I says, that’s okay, you’ll get yours come summertime when it heats up. But surprisingly—and I was really surprised that they didn’t take the hot weather any better than we did. I mean, it was miserably hot, but they were just as big a problem as a rest of us. Franklin: I imagine it’s quite a bit more humid down there, though, with the—when it gets hot, you know. Because the heat with the humidity is— Boice: Yeah, it is. Franklin: --much worse than the dry heat. Boice: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Or any question I haven’t asked you that you think I should— Boice: I don’t know what it would be. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, we’ve really gone—really jumped all over the place. It’s been great. Anyone else have any questions? Hungate: No, the only question—you said you’d done some work with the railroad. What railroad? Boice: Name one. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: All railroads? Union Pacific, all the different--? Boice: Yes. Right now they’re talking about the oil trains, and their problems with them tipping over? I wonder how long it’s gonna take them to get to the problem. In the beginning, railroads were 39-foot rails bolted together. Measured mile after mile after mile of it. Then in about, oh, the middle ‘60s—’67, thereabouts, ’66—when they were putting in the SP&S, that’s now the BN—the Burlington Northern on the Washington side. They went with quarter-mile steel. And the first question that we had as surveyors—because you’re constantly working with the expansion and contraction of steel—was how are they going to control that in long rails? Because if you’re working on railroads very long, first thing you realize is do not sit on the joints in a hot day. You get your butt pinched! [LAUGHTER] When those tracks expand. So we brought this up and the first thing they told us was, well, they’ve got special steel and it’s only going to expand sideways. Well, that story lasted about as long as it took when they started putting it together. Because when they started—they’d set up a factory down here, if you’ll call it that. Brought in 39-foot un-punched rail, and just rolled her off, welded her together and ground down the joints and put her in quarter-mile sections. They were very particular when they put it in at the temperature that they laid that down on, where before—you know what a creeper is? Okay, it’s a kind of a hairpin device that you put over the rail so that it will slide less. But in the old days, the 39-foot rail very seldom saw any creepers. When they put that quarter-mile steel together, you saw a lot of creepers. Now they have gone to ribbon rail. They welded the quarter-mile steel together. You drive down to Portland, and you look at that rail, and you’re gonna go a long ways before you see a joint. There at Quinton and Washman’s dip—which don’t mean a thing to you guys—[LAUGHTER] about a mile post from 120-whatever, they have got a creeper on each—alongside of each and every tie. I mean, they were using creepers like they were going out of style. To me, the expansion’s the thing that they got to worry about, but then they should have figured this out because they’re running it. But it’s a factor. You got to factor it in when you’re doing a pipeline, when you’re doing a railroad. When we were doing the pipeline, Maurice Smith of British Petroleum, who was the head pipeline engineer, I had lunch with him. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t like we sit down at a specified lunch—he dropped in at the chow hall I was eating and sat down at our table. So we got to talking about it. And that was the question I brought up, was how are you going to handle the expansion in the steel? And he says—he admitted it was a heck of a problem. And that you got to run as many Ss as you can so that it’ll take up and accordion itself. And when you’ve got a long straight stretch, it’s gonna give you problems. [LAUGHTER] Because it’s gonna go someplace. And that’s the thing that—after they started the quarter-mile steel, a couple of years later, we had a hot summer. The article in the Tri-City Herald called it the long, hot summer, where we had over 90 days of over 90-degree weather. But they were cutting chunks out of that railroad to keep her on the road bed. And at that time, when the SP&S was having these problems, the UP was laughing at them. They said, we tried this stuff in Wyoming. It didn’t work. And they’re using 39-foot stuff, and it was just whistling down the road. But now I see that they’re using the ribbon rail like everybody else. I can’t see how it’s gonna work, but the they’re doing it. [LAUGHTER] It ain’t my role! [LAUGHTER] The other one was the Camas Prairie. And that starts out, oh, about ten miles above Ice Harbor Dam, thereabouts, breaks loose, and goes clear up past Lewiston, up into Grangeville, Idaho. That’s a crazy little river. Franklin: That’s the one that they filmed that Charles Bronson movie. Boice: Breakheart Pass? Franklin: Breakheart Pass, yeah. Boice: Yeah, that was done up there. You get into railroad history—this area is knee-deep in it. Vollard was the great character in that. He started out with a little portage railroad around Idaho Falls and that area. And then he got the Walla Walla line—I call it the WWWWW&WWW line—Walla Walla, Waitsburg, Washtucna and Washington Wail Woad—which was a money maker. But he ended up getting a lineup from Portland out here. And then when they started building the Northern Pacific, they were building from both ends, and he was hauling Northern Pacific rail over his tracks and taking it out in railroad stock. By the time they got connected over in Montana, he owned a sizable chunk of the railroad. [LAUGHTER] And it was—you get into that railroad history, and it’s just takeover checkers. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much, George. Boice: Okay! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It was a pleasure talking to you. And, yeah, thanks for coming in today. Boice: All righty. Write if you find work! [LAUGHTER] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:46:59 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area Vitro Engineering Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1972- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Boice Description An account of the resource George Boice moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. He began working on the Hanford Site in 1972. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/15/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-08-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Ellensburg (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 700 Area Cat Cold War Construction Dam DuPont FBI Hanford Kennewick Los Alamos Mountain Park River Savannah River School Street Tank Farm Tank Farms Theater Trailer War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fec967f4d78f4f451955c140895f5b7e2.jpg 3a08b04cf344b9cf90ac3214ae236de0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea927b6485455a4852b0ca42cb552440.mp4 6d91626745c8df0071c79d33c8ec3fcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Greger Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Greger Description An account of the resource An interview with George Greger conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7194ce577e47504c63002b978488faf3.jpg fec812f761a66cb868de1623907fd0d9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4f96830baf7c716580f9b628fb86b21b.mp4 0cb1dd85a78b125f9469688f27c3d344 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Glen Clark Location The location of the interview Northwest Public Broadcasting studio at the Washington State University Tri-Cities campus. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. So, before—so I have a little boilerplate at the beginning, and then we’ll just go straight into it, and I’ll ask you about your dad and mom and— Glen Clark: Okay. Franklin: And what you remember, what they told you, and then your childhood in Richland. Okay, great. Clark: I’m just following the lead. Franklin: Okay, good. Well, eventually, you’ll have to lead. Clark: Okay, I will. We’ll BS with the best of them. Franklin: Okay, awesome. Ready? Lori Larsen: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Glen Clark on February—March 7, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Glen about his experiences growing up in Richland and his father’s and mother’s experiences growing up in the area before Hanford—before the Hanford Site came. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Clark: It’s Glen Clark. G-L-E-N. C-L-A-R-K. Franklin: Great, thanks, Glen. So your father and mother were both born here, in the old towns of Hanford and White Bluffs? Clark: They were raised. Franklin: Raised, okay. Clark: Yes, and actually, I think my dad was born at Hanford. Franklin: At the town of Hanford. Clark: Town of Hanford, yes. Franklin: And then your mother came to White Bluffs? Clark: Right. Franklin: What can you recall about what they’ve told you about their childhoods in the area? Clark: You know, we could go on for hours. Franklin: Okay. Clark: And I had the opportunity, three or four or five times to go out to the site with them, or with my dad and uncles. They used to have a Hanford-White Bluffs picnic every year here in Richland. And if you signed up ahead of time, they’d badge you and you could actually go out to—normally, we met at the high school, what was the remnants of the high school. Franklin: The Hanford high school. Clarke: The Hanford high school. And then from there, they just said, go any place you want. Obey signs, obviously, radioactive signs, and be out of here by 1:00. Franklin: Wow. Clark: So we had an opportunity to go out and actually was able to get into, I call it a basement, but the hollow under my grandparents’ home, that is still there. Franklin: Really? Clark: Yeah, it’s basically a hole in the ground. Franklin: Okay, that would’ve been like a cellar? Clark: Right. Franklin: Okay. Clark: So I think it was a two-bedroom house and they raised six boys there. But slept on the porches and out in the sagebrush or wherever they could find someplace to sleep. And my mom moved here later than that. She wasn’t born here. I think she was born in Prosser. And her stepfather worked for Atomic Energy Commission, and that was actually prior to the Hanford Site being taken over. And they had an orchard out in the White Bluffs area. Franklin: So—but he didn’t work for the AEC before the Manhattan Project. Clark: He worked for the AEC before the Manhattan Project. Franklin: Okay. What was the scope of the AEC at the time? Clark: You know, unfortunately, I was too doggone young to listen to my step-grandfather, who was quite a bit older than my grandmother. But anyway, I didn’t get the opportunity to really find out what was going on then. Franklin: Sure, sure. And do you know roughly when your mother moved to White Bluffs? Clark: No, she went through high school in White Bluffs. Franklin: Okay. Clark: So her grandparents were from Prosser. He was a colonel, Colonel Baker. He was actually a real estate and insurance guy back, turn of the century, and did some surveying work. My grandmother was editor of the paper in Prosser for several years. Franklin: Okay. Clark: Great-grandmother. No, grandmother. Great-grandmother. Great-grandmother. I’ll get it right here sooner or later. Franklin: And how many times did you go out with your father and uncles, out to the Site? Clark: It was either four or five summers that we got an opportunity to go out there, and we’d go down to the pump station along the river, which is just down the road from their old house. And there’s over on this side was a guy by the name of John Kashier, had a five-acre, ten-acre spread. And he was also very prolific in making moonshine. They finally—the sheriff at the time finally caught him, so he went to Walla Walla for several years. Franklin: The penitentiary. Clark: To the penitentiary, because they frowned on that back in those days, I guess. Before he went to the penitentiary, he stopped at my grandmother’s, my grandparents’ house, and gave them a roll of money, and said, could you save this for me until I get back? So they did; they put it in their safe, which was a pipe in the side of the cellar, in the basement. They had a pipe, and they stuck that money in the pipe. So that was kind of the highlight, when he got back to them, he got his money back. So there’s a lot of stories of, you know, the kids going down. John Kashier’s house had a dirt floor, as the story goes, but it was just immaculate. It was swept clean. And he was a bachelor, and he always had a can—or, not a can, but a handful of peanuts and raisins for each of the kids. So I guess by all accounts a very good neighbor. Franklin: Popular one, too, I bet. Clark: With the kids. Franklin: And with the adults, right, for the— Clark: Yeah, for the moonshine. Franklin: Would this have been during Prohibition? Clark: Possibly. Because, like I say, they were pretty intent on him. You don’t normally go to prison, I don’t think, so it probably was during prohibition times. Franklin: When was your father born? Clark: Well, he’s 92. Going to be 92. Franklin: Will be 92. So, 1925. Clark: Math wasn’t my best—yeah. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. So what years did you go out with him? When was the last time you went out? Clark: I think it was the last year of the Hanford-White Bluffs picnic, and that’s probably been gone eight years now, probably, is the approximately the last time they had that picnic. People were just getting pretty elderly. Franklin: Sure, I mean, the last people born in those towns would’ve been born in the early ‘40s, so we’re approaching a wall. Clark: Right. Franklin: And who was running the Hanford-White Bluffs Pioneer Association? Clark: You know, I talked to somebody on that. The one that I know best, and not that I really know her, is Annette Heriford, was really active in that. And then there was another gentleman that—They had a banquet the night before where everybody could kind of mix together, normally down at the Shiloh and then the next day they would have the picnic in the park. Franklin: Was that Harry Anderson? Clark: Harry Anderson, yeah. Franklin: Okay. We recently just got the collection of his papers and all of the association documents. Clark: Mm-hmm, right. Franklin: And so you would go down there with your father and your uncles, you would go to the homestead, right, or the old house. And what else would you go see? Clark: Well, we would then drive down to the pump plant which my grandfather used to operate. Franklin: Oh, the pump station. Clark: The actual pump station where they pump water into Hanford. And drive around and see the different—you know, Gilhulys lived here, and I used to pick asparagus in that field, and—so just kind of doing a little tour. And then we’d normally go by, because my dad retired from 200-East and West house, power houses in 200 East and West Area. So then we’d normally drive around the outside of that and then book on out. Franklin: So your father also worked at Hanford? Clark: Yes. Franklin: So he was one of the—was born there, but then was not fully displaced— Clark: Well, yeah, he was. They came in and took the property. Franklin: Yes. Clark: “Buy.” It wasn’t really a buy; it was just, you get out of here and we’ll give you this amount of money. Franklin: Sure. Clark: And they moved to Yakima. Franklin: Okay. Clark: So that was in early ‘40s, I would guess. Franklin: 1943, yeah. Clark: Yeah. And then my dad enlisted in the Navy. And served in WWII. And then afterwards he went back to Yakima and worked for Picatti Brothers, which is pump operation. Franklin: For irrigation? Clark: Irrigation and domestic, and they rebuilt motors, and then he got on at Hanford as a motor-winder. Franklin: And what is a motor-winder? Clark: They actually rebuild electric motors, all the coils that are inside of them. I don’t think they do that anymore, probably, but back in the day, they did. They actually rewound them. Franklin: What kind of electric motors? For--? Clark: Anything. Any kind of electric motor. That’s what he started at Hanford doing, was in the motor shop. Franklin: The motor shop. And this was in the 200 Area? Clark: That was, I believe, in the 200 Area. And then he finally worked his way up. He was, when he retired, he was foreman for power and maintenance. He had a couple of crews, 18, 20 people, different crafts. Franklin: How long did he work for Hanford? Clark: Well, he retired when he was—started in 1950. And so 40, 40-plus years. Franklin: Oh, so he retired in the ‘90s, wow. Clark: Yeah. Franklin: And so you said he worked his way up in the shop from being a motor-winder to a foreman. Clark: Right. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. That’s quite a long career. Clark: Yes. It was, you know, it was a good job. Franklin: Did he ever talk about—what were his feelings on the forced removal and then being back there, working for that same project? Clark: You know, I just think he got over it. Franklin: Yeah? Clark: Everybody was in the same shape, as far as the old-timers that had lived out there, were in the same shape. Get out. Franklin: Was there any bitterness, do you think? Maybe initially, or--? Clark: Oh, I’m sure there was a lot of—I mean, those people would be saints if there weren’t bitterness. The story goes that one of the guys had an orchard, and he said, just—cherry orchard, I believe. And he said, okay, just give me another month so I can harvest my cherries, and I’ll give you the land. And they said, no. Out. So the story goes. Franklin: Right. Clark: So I’m sure that there was a lot of bitterness. And I’m sure, in those days, nobody knew why. Or what was going on. They just knew that they were gone. Franklin: Did your father ever express any bitterness or resentment? Clark: I don’t believe so. I never saw that. And, actually, my grandparents who moved into Yakima didn’t either. But, there, again, some time had lapsed. Time, they say, cures everything. So. Franklin: Except for old age. Clark: Yeah, well, yes. I keep thinking that, maybe I ought to petition the government to give it back to who it was taken from. Which would be an interesting legal challenge. Franklin: Well, yeah, on a few levels. Because, you know, before white settlers came there was also another— Clark: Indian. Franklin: Yeah, another claim to that land. That would be very interesting. That would face some immediate legal challenges from, I think, many— Clark: Oh, I’m sure that, yeah, definitely would. But the Indians used to stop by my grandparents’ all the time. Franklin: Really? What—did they tell you about that, or--? Clark: Yeah, they’d just say, oh, Johnny Buck stopped and walked in the house and had dinner with us. You know, he was kind of the chief, I guess, of the—And my grandfather, for a period of time, was a Benton County commissioner. So anything that happened in his end of the county, he was kind of—he’d take charge of it. So he knew all the Indians. He used to, the story goes, that he took the family car and went down to Horn Rapids, which is now Winwash or whatever-in-the-heck it is. But the Indians had deals set up; they were netting salmon. So anyway, they gave him as many salmon as he could haul. And he loaded up the backseat, you know. I’m sure it smelled great. And then he went around to the community and handed out salmon to people that needed food. So it was interesting. Franklin: Yeah, that is very interesting. Kind of acting as a redistribution agent for that. So your grandparents, your family had pretty good relations, then with— Clark: With the Indians. Franklin: With the Wanapum. Clark: Oh, yes, yes. Franklin: That’s interesting because I’ve heard other stories from other people who mentioned friendly Wanapum visits, or they would ask people to store things for them if they were going to, like, a fishing camp and they didn’t want to carry everything. Clark: Yeah, no, they stopped—Dad tells one story that the whole tribe stopped by. They were moving to some different area for fishing or for root collecting or whatever they were doing, and the whole tribe came by and waved and stopped for a little bit. Franklin: Wow. Clark: So they were all on very good terms. One of my uncles—there was a lot of arrowheads and those type of things that they found over the years. One of my uncles has actually took a bunch of his collection up to the new museum that they just built up at one of the dams. They built a nice museum, so he donated a bunch of his collection to them. Franklin: Oh, that’s cool. Clark: Actually, I think all of them. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s great. That’s always good to see that, to hear of that stuff getting— Clark: Back to where it— Franklin: Yeah, repatriated. Clark: I mean, it wasn’t against the law at the time. Franklin: Sure. Clark: It is now, obviously. You’re not supposed to pick anything up. But back in those days, was just doing their thing. Franklin: Right, and if there ever were laws they weren’t as enforced really, much, as they are now. Clark: Right. Franklin: No, that’s good to hear. Clark: They used to—the boys, the older boys—there were six boys, and my grandfather used to go up to Priest Rapids and there was some kind of logjam up there. They would make a raft out of these logs that are floating down from dam construction or whatever they were doing on the river. And then they would float that to Hanford, which was a couple-day ordeal. And that was their firewood for the winter. So they’d pull it up, with the horses, and pull it up on the bank, and cut it up. Franklin: Wow. That sounds really dangerous. To make a raft out of logs. Clark: And you know, all the boys survived. Franklin: Yeah, I’m sure. Well, they also knew how to do it, though, too, right? They had learned. I can just imagine somebody trying to do that today and probably getting killed. Clark: Yes. Yes, probably most likely. Franklin: Very much, I respect that knowledge of how to make a raft, a serviceable raft, out of reclaimed logs. Clark: Well, they’d just lash it together, and put a big boom pole on it. They’d do one or two rafts, and away they went. Franklin: Wow, wow. That’s really something. Clark: Yeah, it’s quite an undertaking. And of course back in those days, they didn’t have chainsaws and all that stuff. So it was a tough way to make some firewood. Franklin: Yeah, well, also, though, your options around here are pretty limited if you don’t want to burn sagebrush all the—which I imagine isn’t very good firewood. Clark: I wouldn’t think so. Franklin: Where did your father fall in the six boys? Was he— Clark: He was number three. Franklin: So he was square, pretty much, in the middle. Clark: Right. Franklin: Did any of your uncles work for Hanford? Clark: Yes. My number two uncle worked out there for many, many years. I can’t even tell you what he—well, he worked with my father. I think on a different shift, but he was in management of some sort or another. Franklin: Are the six brothers still pretty close—or were they pretty close? Clark: They’ve been close all their lives. Franklin: And did they all stay in the same area? After the displacement? Clark: No. Well, the two youngest went to Yakima with my grandparents, because they were still in school. Then all of the older ones were in the service. And then when my oldest uncle got out of the service, then he moved to Yakima and went—his entire life, he only worked for one company and that was Picatti brothers. Who was a friend of my grandparents. The elder Picattis. And they’re still a viable company. So my uncle retired from Picatti Brothers after, I don’t know, a lot of years. Franklin: Your grandparents probably knew him from then— Clark: From Hanford. Franklin: From working at the pump. Clark: Yeah. They—because grandpa used to do, like, general contracting. Hand-dig wells. And so they kind of worked hand-in-hand with Picatti Brothers for pumps and that kind of stuff. Franklin: Oh, I see. Clark: They’ve been family friends for years. Franklin: Would all of the boys often get together and go on the picnic—the White Bluffs-Hanford Reunion? Clark: Normally there was three or four. Franklin: Three or four. Clark: Yeah. Well, probably, a lot of times there were five. One of my uncles ended up moving all over the Northwest for a power company. So he was, a lot of times, down in Medford or over in Montana. Someplace way out of the area. So he normally didn’t come up for the picnic, but the rest of the other five did. Franklin: What did your grandparents do after moving—after being—moving to Yakima after being displaced? Clark: My grandfather—my grandmother didn’t work outside of the house. Franklin: Sure. Clark: But my grandfather went to work for PP&L, Pacific Power and Light. Franklin: Oh, okay. Clark: And he was running a substation there in Yakima for a lot of years. Franklin: Did your grandfather ever get a chance, or grandmother, ever get a chance to go back onsite? Clark: If they did, it was before my time. Franklin: Okay. Clark: They weren’t with us for those years that I went out. Franklin: Sure. When did they pass away? Clark: Now, that’s going back ancient history. Franklin: Okay. Clark: I should’ve brought my book. I’ve got a book that chronicles the whole family back, the Clarks and the Straddlings, which—but I didn’t bring it. Franklin: That’s okay. Do you remember your grandmother or grandfather talking about the displacement, their feelings about it? Clark: I didn’t really, like I say, they were displaced in ’43, ’42-’43, whatever. I was born in ’50. So, no, they’re not going to talk to a five-year-old, anyway, about that. So, yeah, there was never really much of any hard feelings that, at least, were apparent. Then they moved a lot of the graves to Prosser, which is where my grandparents were also buried. But they were buried at—they had never have been buried at Hanford, obviously, or it wouldn’t have been able to be moved. But then they moved a lot of those graves. Actually, I was—we go up there for Memorial Day every year and decorate graves. So I was cruising the—which sounds like fun, cruising the cemetery. And I found that John Kashier’s grave, which is—that one section is Hanford-White Bluffs. They were moved there. So I found his grave. Franklin: Was your family close with any other families that were displaced and stayed in the area? Clark: Not to any great extent. I mean, they kept in touch, but not—others, couple that were fairly close, the Burford family, and then the Meek family. And the Meeks used to own BB&M, was one of the owners of BB&M in Uptown Richland. So Dad used to see them quite a bit. And Don Burford still calls him. I think he’s in Port Angeles or someplace over there and still calls him every once in a while. Franklin: Because your father is still alive, yes? Clark: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And you said he’s 92. Clark: He’s going to be 92. Franklin: Going to be 92. So what about your—do you remember any recollections of your mother from growing up in White Bluffs, or her family’s— Clark: They didn’t have the roots as deeply in White Bluffs as they did in Prosser. Franklin: Ah, I see. Clark: So, it wasn’t as big a deal, I don’t think. Because they had not been there—I guess they had an orchard and something out there. But they hadn’t been there as long as—and of course, with my step-grandfather working for AEC, you know, that was kind of all tied-in. I don’t know how long they actually lived in White Bluffs. Or whether he was one of the first ones there and then the movement came. I can’t tell you. Franklin: Sure. Did you—when you would visit the site with your father and uncles, do you remember any other—are there any other experiences that stand out to you, anything else you saw, or— Clark: Yeah, I mean, there were deer everywhere, as there still are. And we were driving along the river, and there’s a couple of baby bobcats that went up a tree. Back in those days, I was a little young and tougher. A little dumber, too. So I decided I was going to try to get those bobcats. And make pets. Well, they convinced me that that would not be a real smart move. Franklin: The bobcats did, or your— Clark: No, my uncles. Dad and uncles. Franklin: Yeah. I bet Mama Bobcat would have something to say about that. Clark: She wasn’t immediately visible. Not that she wasn’t there. Franklin: I was going to say, she was probably watching. Clark: I would guess. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Clark: But like I say, I was a little younger and dumber back in those days, and a whole lot tougher, so. Franklin: Anything else that stands out to you? Clark: No. It was interesting just to go through and they would point out, well, Gilhuly’s family lived here, and this is where John Kashier lived, this is where such-and-such lived, and this is where—you know. And then we’d go by the old store, which wasn’t there, but the bank in White Bluffs. And then they would talk about, you’d go in there for a nickel and get three ice cream cones or something. So it was interesting. Franklin: And so you moved to Richland in—right, you were born in Yakima? Clark: Born and moved, three days old. I don’t remember the move, but I understand I was three days old when I moved to Richland. Franklin: And you grew up in Richland. Clark: Yes. Franklin: And so your family, you guys lived in an Alphabet House, then, when you were a kid? Clark: Yes. Franklin: A government-owned house. Describe that, describe growing up in Richland in the government days. Clark: It was a great place to grow up. You’ve heard the stories. I mean, we rode bicycles without helmets, we drank out of the garden hose. I remember, I don’t know how often it was, but all the houses—not all of them, but most of the houses had coalbeds. And they would just drive up with a coal truck up to your little chute in the basement, the little window, and they opened up the window and filled it full of coal, and that’s what we heated with. But you didn’t—I was pretty young; I think they started selling those houses, if I remember, ’56, ’57. Franklin: 1958. Clark: Okay. So I was still pretty young to understand, but somebody’d come over and change light bulbs. Normally it was three people, because you had to have safety, and you had to have the manager, and the person who actually screwed the light bulb. So that was just the way it was. And for many, many years after that, when I finally got older and got into business, there was still a lot of people in the business community that didn’t like doing business with Hanford people. Franklin: Really? Why is that? Clark: Because there was the perception that they had been given, for many, many years had been given everything. I mean, you didn’t change your own lightbulbs. So there was that mindset. Franklin: Was that a perception within the community of Richland, or more of a Tri-Cities— Clark: More Kennewick, Pasco. Franklin: Kennewick, Pasco thing. Clark: Right. Franklin: Dealing with Richland people. Well, I guess to a small extent, that was somewhat true. I mean, the level of home service you were talking about. You paid your rent and people came and delivered your coal to your house. Do you remember what kind of house you lived in? What Alphabet? Clark: Yeah. My dad still lives there. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what house is it? Clark: It’s a B duplex. Franklin: A B duplex. And where is it? Clark: On McPherson. 1300 block on McPherson. Franklin: Oh, okay. And that’s where you grew up and— Clark: Right. Franklin: And went through childhood and everything. Do you have any examples of people not—that kind of—because kind of I’m fascinated about that inter-cities relationship between Richland and Pasco and Kennewick. Clark: Yeah, and I don’t have any specific other than you’d go into a business and be negotiating something with—and, you must be from Richland; you have that attitude. Of course, back in those days, you didn’t live in Richland, basically, unless you worked at Hanford. Especially up until ’58. I mean, if you lived there, you basically worked at Hanford or some kind of subsidiary. Franklin: Right, you might have worked at a business in Uptown, or owned a business that had, though, that had the government contract to run that business. Clark: Right. We had a good friend of mine I went to school with that his dad had a floor covering company in Richland. It took him a couple of years to get a contract to be able to do that, but anyway, he finally did. And spent many, many years in Richland doing floor covering. Franklin: Mm. So you say that was kind of a perception from Kennewick and Pasco businesspeople that Richland people were kind of coddled or entitled? Clark: Yeah. Franklin: I guess is the word they’d use? Clark: Entitled, maybe, is a good word for it. Franklin: Okay. And did that persist for a while? Clark: For a while, I mean, it wasn’t—because I didn’t really start in the business and I didn’t graduate from school until ’68, from high school. So it was after that, into the ‘70s before it—and then of course by that time, Richland had greatly expanded; a lot of people had moved in that didn’t work at Hanford. So it kind of changed that whole focus. Franklin: Sure, sure. What do you remember about going to school in Hanford, especially in regard to—were they doing civil defense drills and things at the time that you were in elementary and middle school? Clark: Right. You know, it wasn’t a huge deal, but they’d have an air raid, and you’d crawl under your desk. It wasn’t a huge deal, but they did it on a regular basis. So there was some thought to that. Franklin: Were they practicing emergency routes at the time that you were in elementary, middle school where kids would get on buses and they would practice leaving town. Clark: No. No, there wasn’t any of that that I recall. Of course, you have to understand, my first day of kindergarten, I went to a different school than what I ended up graduating from. First day of school, they got me to school, and when I came home, my folks had moved. And it was like three months before I found them. Nah, I’m kidding. [LAUGHTER] But, no, I don’t recall any bus route. I remember one time as a cub scout, I was able to, with cub scout group, go up to the Nike missiles up on the hill. At the base of Rattlesnake. And got a tour—somewhat of a tour of those missile silos. Franklin: Wow. Clark: And to this day I can’t tell you whether there was actually any missiles in them or if they were just the empty—just the facility. But I don’t think they’d let a bunch of cub scouts around a bunch of Nike missiles. Franklin: Well, I mean, you never know. Clark: And kids were a little dangerous, you know. Hit the wrong switch, and— Franklin: You’d hope they’d have slightly better security for launching missiles than that. Clark: You would hope so. Franklin: When did you first—do you remember when you first found out or became aware of what was being made at Hanford? Clark: No, because it was—you know, by the time that I was like going to school, I mean, that was out. I mean, obviously, they had used the atomic bombs and—so, everybody knew what it was. Franklin: Were you ever worried about the effects of radiation or of production on your dad’s health, your family’s health? Clark: You know, it’s always—I’m in the real estate business, and have been for 40-some years, okay? So one of the first things we got—you know: I don’t want to be anywhere close to Hanford. Okay, people moving into town, not working at Hanford, well, we want to stay as far away as we can. You know, if the people who were in charge of safety lived in Spokane, I might be a little concerned. But they live right here, too. So, really, I was never—never overly concerned that there was any kind of an issue. I mean, it’s all the Hanford employees had their dosimeters, their little badges they have. And then there was a metal box on our front porch for many, many years that the urine sample went in. They’d come around and collect them and they’d check just to make sure people weren’t getting a dose that they weren’t expecting. Franklin: That was for employees, though, right? Clark: Employees, correct. Franklin: So, but what about—did you ever wonder about just the general—anything getting into the air or the water or anything like that? Clark: No, like I said, the people that are in charge of that live here, too. So I was really never all that—and we used to hunt up on the Columbia River, on the Hanford Site, on the shoreline, which was legal to hunt waterfowl. And you know, you just never gave it much thought, that there was still a lot of messes, or still is, out there. Franklin: What about the—given Hanford’s role in the production of material for two-thirds or three-quarters of the US nuclear weapons stockpile, did you ever worry about Hanford—about their being a danger in Hanford from a Cold War perspective? From a—that there might be reason to be doing all that civil defense, that Hanford might be a target? Clark: Well, that’s why they had the Nike missile; that’s why they had Army out here. Franklin: Sure. Clark: Obviously, it was a factor. But one of the times that we went on the Hanford-White Bluffs picnic, and we were all staged there at the old Hanford school, high school, and here came a helicopter. And it swoop, swoop, swoop, sat down right there out in front of everybody, and three guys get out submachine guns. And it kind of goes—okay. And obviously, it was a show. But we were able to go tour the helicopter, so-to-speak, and talk to the people. And I asked them, I said, how—because they have heat-seeking stuff, or did. I don’t even think they have helicopters anymore. But they had heat-seeking. He said, I can find a snake if I want to. If I turn it down to that, I can find a snake. So, obviously, security. And we, being raised in Richland—you know, what does your dad do? Well, he’s Hanford security. One of my buddies all through school was a courier, and he used to take highly secret stuff on trains. And they would take it wherever they were going, Savannah River, wherever, on a special train. And they were all armed with machine guns—I mean, it was pretty brutal. Franklin: Right. Clark: But they just—so I’ve always felt safe. I mean. The Cold War was the Cold War, and Khrushchev taking off his shoe and beating it on the table was part of the rhetoric. Franklin: Right, right. Clark: They have kind of the same thing now. Franklin: In— Clark: [LAUGHTER] In our president. Franklin: Ah. Can you elaborate? In what way, like how— Clark: Well, he’s a little off the wall, kind of like Khrushchev is. Now, I like him; don’t get me wrong. But he’s a little off the wall. Franklin: Yeah, he can get a little—act a little quickly sometimes, maybe. Where—luckily, in the Cold War, clearer heads prevailed—clear heads prevailed. Clark: Right. Franklin: Because I guess that’s where they—I understand the physical security, spies and operatives wouldn’t come, but what about—I mean, much of the Cold War was ruled by the fear of—because most of the nukes were on ICBMs or in planes, so I’m wondering, what about that more existential fear that could’ve become real, of Hanford likely being a site in a nuclear war? Clark: Really didn’t cross my mind. I mean, I honestly would be more concerned right now, because of North Korea, than I was back in those days. There wasn’t really any great fear. Franklin: Right. Yeah, luckily their rocket technology isn’t as good as the Soviets’ is yet—now. They keep trying, though. Very much so. So you live in Richland. Did you go to Columbia High? Clark: Yes. Franklin: Now Richland High. Clark: Right. Franklin: So, proud Bomber. I’m wondering if you could—since you would’ve—you graduated in 1968, right, so you came of age in a very turbulent time in American culture. Clark: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could speak to any kind of civil rights action in the Tri-Cities and what you observed if anything— Clark: Not in Richland; in Pasco, yeah. During that timeframe, there was some riots. Pasco High School wasn’t exactly the safest—well, I shouldn’t say it wasn’t the safest place, but there was a lot of unrest. I mean, they kept their thumbs on it, but there was a lot of unrest. Franklin: And what kind of unrest? Clark: Oh, girls of different nationalities ganging together. But it really didn’t spill over into Richland. I’ve got good friends that are African Americans and there was several that—one in particular I went to school with, and then two years older, Fred Milton, who was a big, big black guy, a football player, was a good friend of my older brother’s, so he’d be over at the house all the time. Franklin: And this was in Richland. Clark: This was in Richland. But originally, the stories go, and I believe the stories to be true, there wasn’t any black people in Richland or especially in Kennewick. They were all Pasco. Franklin: Right, because Kennewick had had sundown laws that prohibited homeownership. But there were a few African Americans in Richland, though, right, because— Clark: There were, but not many. Not many. The guy that just passed away was a realtor for many years; I knew him well. Franklin: CJ Mitchell. Clark: CJ. His family was in Richland there. And you know, great family. I mean, it’s—so, yeah, we just—it never was really an issue during my time. Franklin: Sure, sure. Do you remember the JFK visit in 1963? Clark: I do! I was actually out there. Franklin: Were you? Clark: Yup. Franklin: Okay, I’m wondering if you could describe that. Clark: [LAUGHTER] That’s been many years ago. Franklin: Well, sure. Clark: As I recall, it was just hotter than hell. And somehow I went out—I can’t remember now even how, but we got to see him. Maybe it was a scout deal or cub scout deal or something, but, anyway, I was able to go out there and see him. At the time, it was a big deal. Franklin: What else do you remember about the event? Clark: Really not much of anything, other than it was hotter than heck and longer than—you know, when you get a president speaking and a couple of senators speaking, and they’ve all got to say everything they can say. Franklin: Right, also, I bet there’s a lot of lead-up to the actual event. What did your mother do? Clark: She worked. She retired at the public health department. Franklin: Okay, was that for Kadlec or for— Clark: No, for Benton and Franklin Counties. She wrote the checks. Franklin: Oh, okay. Clark: She was a bookkeeper of some type. So I’ve always had a good in with the folks there at the health department. You want your check? Approve this plat or you don’t get your paycheck. Obviously, she wouldn’t do that, but it was always a good story. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Did she ever work any with Hanford or anybody out at Hanford? Clark: You know, I think she did very early on, but that really would’ve been in the, probably late ‘40s. Because I don’t think, you know, with four kids to raise—I know that she didn’t work after, you know, in my memory. Franklin: Did she ever go out to the Site with any of the reunions? Clark: Not to my knowledge. Franklin: Okay. Has she passed? Clark: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And so then after you graduated from Columbia-slash-Richland High, did you stay in the area, or--? Clark: Stayed in the area, actually bought a B house. Franklin: Oh. Clark: In ’70, I believe. Franklin: Really? At 20 years old. Clark: At 20 years old. And I sold it, I think, ’72 or ’73 and bought some other properties. Ended up moving to Kennewick for a while, and then ended up, in ’80, I think, I bought a house in Pasco. Franklin: Okay. Clark: So, where I currently am. Franklin: And so did you get bitten by the realtor bug early on then, or--? Clark: You know, when I bought my duplex in Richland, I paid $18.5k for it. And I don’t remember much about it. I was kind of doing odd jobs, and I worked for this realtor, Clair Groves, used to have Allied Brokers down the river shore. I said, Clair, if you ever find a house, a B duplex, I’m interested. So anyway, he called me one day, I found one, I looked at it, 18.5. Okay, how much down? $600. So I borrowed the 600 from my grandmother and bought it. And the only thing I really remember off the closing statement was how much money he made. Of course, I didn’t pay him; the seller did. But still. And I thought, that’s a pretty lucrative business; I can do that. So, yeah, so in ’72 I got a license to—and I’ve been in it ever since. Franklin: Ah, I see. So you’ve bought and sold property, then, all over the— Clark: All over the Tri-Cities. Franklin: You’ve sold, I assume, a fair number of old Alphabet Houses or prefabs. Clark: Yeah. Prefabs is—I’m working on one now that I own, and I’ve owned one or two others. But that’s it, because they’re a bearcat to—there’s no halfway fix. Franklin: Right. I live in a prefab. Clark: I know. But if you start remodeling it, there’s no going partway. You’ve really got to do it, do it all. Franklin: Oh, okay. Right. Well, they were really never—I mean, they were temporary housing. Clark: Oh, yeah. Flat roof, just like, an oven, I guess, the first couple years they were there, and then they put the peaked roofs on them. Yeah, they were built to last four years, five years. And a lot of them are still there, and a lot of them are excellent homes. Franklin: Yeah. Do you find you have a special affinity for Alphabet Homes? A connection? Are you keyed into that history at all? Clark: Yeah. No. Well, the market for As and Bs, and Cs, if you can find a C, and there’s another one, D, I think, that are duplexes. They’re almost not—they’re very hard to find, available. So, and the price has gone from, I paid $18.5 for mine, and I sold it for $26, I think. Now they’re about $175 to $200-plus depending on condition and what’s been done. Franklin: So you find they’re desirable, then? Is that what— Clark: Yeah. And extremely well-built. I mean, obviously, they’re getting old. Franklin: Yeah. Clark: But they used extremely good lumber. Because it was a war effort, and they came in. I mean, some of the duplexes actually had full basements that were all completely built that way. And then they found out that the contract said you don’t do that; you only do half-basements. So they went and filled them back in with dirt and put the wall in that was standard. So, yeah, it’s interesting. But they’re good solid properties. Franklin: Great. Clark: And there’s been a lot of money in Richland because of the price they paid for their real estate when they bought them in ’58, so they were paid off, you know, a few years. So people have been able to afford to upgrade them. So it’s hard to find one now that’s original. I mean, something’s been done to them over the years. Franklin: Oh sure, I mean, you’re talking— Clark: Human nature. Franklin: We’re talking about houses that are 70 years old or more, or around there. That’s pretty standard for—at least as far as the—you’re talking especially about insides, right, the guts of the house. Clark: Right. Franklin: Not so much the— Clark: Not so much the outside. Franklin: Well, and if you change the outside too much, then it’s not really the same house anymore. Clark: When I was a kid, probably 12, 12 or 13, my dad went in partners with a guy who bought, I think a half of one of the barracks out here at Hanford when the Army moved out, and then they were going to just tear them down. So we went out and tore it down. We got the lumber that we tore down, recycled it, and my dad built his big garage with it, and we put an addition out the back of the B house on his side. That was a lot of fun. Franklin: Interesting. That’s kind of neat. That’s also kind of historic, or interesting reuse operation, kind of combining this historic Army structure with—that’s very interesting. And that was done in the ‘60s? Clark: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that’s really cool. I do historic preservation, so it’s always kind of interesting to hear of good reuse projects like that. Clark: Right. Franklin: And the flavor, that’s great, too. So, being a graduate of Columbia and Richland High—at that time, you graduated, were they using the Bombers, the cloud imagery? Clark: Yes. Franklin: I’m wondering—that’s a very—I don’t know, loaded, or charged, symbol. Clark: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m trying to find a way to phrase that properly. I think you get—I think you know what I’m getting at. I’m wondering, can I get your thoughts on that, on that particular symbol and that mascot? Clark: You know, it served us for many years. I guess I’m just an old redneck, but politically correct is—I mean, it’s just gone way overboard. I’ve got a very good friend of mine that just lost his wife a couple of weeks ago. And she was from Japan. She’d tell stories during the bombing and stuff that they’d take all the kids up and hide them in caves in Japan. But there wasn’t—there hasn’t been really any animosity between us and, like I say, her, she’s been a friend of mine for years. But there wasn’t any—so the bombs created a lot of death, yes. How many lives did it save? And the cost of invading Japan in human lives would’ve been—because those people would’ve fought to the last person. So the war got over, a lot of people didn’t die that could’ve died on both sides. So it was kind of like this, one of the necessities of war. Franklin: Hmm. I wonder, though, how—as that generation is—the World War II generation is almost gone. Clark: Right. Franklin: I’m wondering, how strong of a—how that connection will carry on as— Clark: You mean with the bomb logo? Franklin: You know there’s a generation now that is the grandchildren or great-grandchildren of that, who kind of come— Clark: You try to change it again, and you’re going to get those of us, and there’s a couple of people I can think of their names, that would just have a fit. And very vocal people. So, yeah, maybe another 30 years, when us old guys are all gone, too, maybe they’ll look back and say, well, let’s get rid of that. But it’s just like that R in ’67, that R that was placed up on the hill and that the school district in their infinite wisdom decided to remove without telling anybody. And people came up in arms about it. And now they’ve replaced it. Old school. Franklin: Cool. Is there anything that I—or, actually, no, sorry, second-to-last question. Clark: Okay. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about growing up in Richland, living in Richland during the Cold War? Clark: You know, I have absolutely no complaints. It was still, then, pretty much a small town, extremely safe town. I mean, you’d be out at midnight, and nobody worried about any kind of violence going on. Or if you’re 17 years old and you got picked up with a six-pack of beer, the cops’d get you. Pour it out, and go home. I mean, it was just laidback, small town, everybody knew everybody. Which is a drawback, because it’s going, who are you taking out tonight? Well, I’m taking out--. Who are you taking out? Oh, yeah, I know her mom real well. Oh, good. That’s not what I wanted to hear. Franklin: That’s interesting. I hear that a lot. And it strikes me that that—the factors that underlie that seem to be that everyone—it was so safe and so secure because the government before ’58 had a very tight control over who lived in the town. But also it was a town of almost full employment and good employment and government employment. So there seems to be—in a town with all this safety and security and freedom, there was also this heavy government hand in some ways. Clark: You know, there, again, in ’58, I was eight years old. So I certainly wouldn’t have felt that. But, yeah, I mean, you couldn’t paint your house or anything that we’re just used to. I mean, you could have it painted; you could get somebody to come in—they’d send a crew of 12 to paint your house; it took them three weeks, you know? But, yeah, there again, I was awfully young to be able to—I probably wouldn’t have felt any of that. Franklin: Sure, sure. Clark: But growing up, like I say, it was—in a fairly wealthy town, from the standpoint that basically all the water and sewer, electricity, all of that stuff was, in essence, given to the city when it became private. So the people in the city didn’t have to pay for it. Now, obviously, we’re paying for it now because a lot of it’s getting old and they have to update the infrastructure. Franklin: Sure. Clark: But that wasn’t the way in the beginning. Because it was all basically in top shape and given to the city to say, here, operate it. Franklin: Right. I mean, they needed good facilities to get good people to come and stay. Yeah, that’s good— Clark: And I’m sure you’ve heard a lot of stories of people coming here and the first windstorm blew them back out of town. Franklin: Oh yeah, very much so. Yeah, it seems people that stayed were more often the exception than the rule in those early days. But that’s a good point, that Richland, when it incorporated, really had started off on a very good foot in terms of all that government investment really created Richland as this middle class, upper middle class city. In comparison to Kennewick and Pasco which had much different origins. Clark: Right. Franklin: And that, like you alluded to before, that might explain—not, you alluded; that you stated, that might explain some of that resentment. Clark: Potentially. Franklin: Potentially. Clark: I mean, they wouldn’t actually put a sign up on the front door saying no Richland people allowed. So it was— Franklin: Kind of subtext, kind of underneath the surface, when the Richland people were gone, they might be like, oh, those Richland people, again, you know? Clark: Well, there again, the wages weren’t top wages, but they were pretty close. They were good-paying jobs. And where most people, you know, I mean, your dad worked at Hanford. You can’t get fired from Hanford, or it’s extremely difficult to get fired from Hanford. You just showed up, did your job, and okay. It’s not the real world, I mean, people in Kennewick and Pasco didn’t have that. I mean, you only worked if you could make the boss money. And in this case, the boss was the people, the taxpayers. So it was kind of like, hey, you’ve got a job here forever. Franklin: Well, and the product was one of very high demand. Clark: Yes. Franklin: You know, at war there. Clark: Well, it’s basically, it’s been good for a lot of families. Franklin: Oh, yeah, very much so. Well, great, Glen, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Clark: No, I think you’ve pretty well done a good job and kind of covered the bases. Franklin: Okay, well, great, thank you. Thank you so much. Clark: You betcha. Franklin: Okay. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01:51 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Glen Clark Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Glen Clark grew up in the pre-Manhattan Project towns of Hanford and White Bluffs and later moved to Richland as his parents went to work at the Hanford Site. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/7/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F308708a50c5d3255fff49081116f2946.JPG 7504f73a4fb2271d503d0fd147062f3f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff5ff790c9c56b6d9393251b940eeb4b7.mp4 c0e41977e83f11154b807d447330db45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gordon Guice Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Gordon—how do you say your last name? Gordon Guice: Guice, G-U-I-C-E. Robert: Guice. Gordon Guice on January 23rd, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Gordon about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Guice: Gordon Joe Guice. G-O-R-D-O-N, J-O-E, G-U-I-C-E. Franklin: Great, thanks, Gordon. So I usually start off by asking how and why you came to the area, but your parents actually came to the area. So I’m wondering, I’d like to start there, if you could tell me about your parents and how they came here. Guice: Well my dad, Joe C. Guice, was in the service. And when he got out of service, he came to the State of Washington. Franklin: And do you know what year that would have been? Guice: That was in the late ‘40s. After ’43, you know, around that area. My mom was out this way also, and she came out this way via the railroad employment. She ventured out this way at the Hanford City at the restaurant and she was a waitress there. Franklin: That would have been the construction camp? Guice: Yeah, that’s the construction camp. She was a waitress. And she met my dad. Franklin: Okay. Guice: And the rest is history right there. And they, shortly after that, they got married. Dad was a laborer and he specialized in cement finishing out at Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Where were your parents from? Guice: My parents are from Texas. My dad’s from Longview, Texas, and my mom was from Naples, Mount Pleasant, Texas. Franklin: I don’t know Texas— Guice: Southeast Texas. Franklin: Okay, so kind of close to the Louisiana— Guice: Right on the border. Franklin: Okay, great. It’s my understanding that the Manhattan Project was segregated, that work crews and things were segregated, is that—did your parents talk about that at all? Guice: My dad, he didn’t bring it up very much, but he was a foreman, and back then I can remember when he come home with all of his buddies. They would all carpool. And my dad was a foreman, so he would talk about his crew, and all I seen was Afro-Americans as his crew. So I kind of take it at that. He was just a black foreman and all his crew was black, you know. I mean, when he went to the dams, it was more of the integration. When he went to the dams—he worked on a lot of dams. Lower Monumental, Little Goose, Ice Harbor. They worked on all those dams. Franklin: Oh, wow. Guice: A lot of cement. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: That was his forte. Franklin: Cement? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: And how long did your—did your mom talk about working out on Site at all? Guice: My mom didn’t work onsite. Franklin: Oh, sorry. Guice: Just my dad. Franklin: Just your dad, okay. Guice: Yeah. Franklin: So where did she work during the Manhattan Project, then? Guice: During the Manhattan Project, she was a waitress, she cleaned houses, in west Pasco for some doctors. She worked at Frank’s Grill, that was a restaurant downtown. And she later on, after we got a little bit older, she worked for Pasco School District. She was a bus driver for 35 years. Franklin: Wow, for 35 years. Guice: Yeah, and my mom went to Columbia Basin College when I was in like junior high school, and she got a cosmetology license and she done black hair with the old irons on the stove. She done all the black ladies’ hair. Franklin: Wow. Did she have her own shop or— Guice: No, she done it in our kitchen. [LAUGHTER] In our kitchen. Franklin: That’s great. When were you born, Gordon? Guice: In 1952, Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Pasco. Franklin: Okay. It’s my understanding that life in the Tri-Cities was somewhat—although not formally segregated, there existed informal levels of segregation. Did your parents ever experience that, or talk about their experiences with that? Guice: Well, it was there, because you could see it. There was boundaries in Kennewick, and there was boundaries coming out this way to Richland. But my—I was raised to try to get along with everybody. And that helped me in the long run. It was there. And we had some bad times in the early ‘60s, some riots and stuff like that. But I guess there was a lot of copycat stuff going on, because there wasn’t enough of us to cause any real problem. But we wanted to be heard. And there was a few things that happened, but it never got out of hand. Franklin: When you mention bad times in the early ‘60s, do you mean nationally or locally? Guice: Well, I mean, the national stuff started the local stuff. As far as I’m concerned. Stuff would—that’s why I say copycat. It was real problems, but when you see someone doing something, stand up for a cause, you take it upon yourself to try to join in and try to make things right. I’ve always been one to—and I was raised that way—to keep my eye on the prize. My dad always taught me that. To keep my—no matter what. He said, it’s going to be rough. You’re a different color; you’re going to have to do certain things better, and you’re going to have to be there. You know, it’s just a little tough, but that’s life. I took that to heart. It turned out okay for me. Franklin: Great. When you say copycat things, is there anything in particular that you remember from that time that happened locally? Guice: Well, in ’68, I think they had the Watts riots around that time. And then there was a demonstration downtown Pasco where some trees got torched right in front of the—that’s why there’s no trees there anymore. They got torched in front of the courthouse. That’s the first time I ever got tear gassed—was wrong place at the wrong time. But it was a demonstration. I don’t remember anybody really getting hurt. There were a few—[unknown] comes to mind. He got killed by the cops over at— Franklin: That’s someone local? Guice: Yes, someone local. By the cops. There’s rumors around that. They probably shouldn’t have done—come to the certain extent, to take his life. But you know, that still happens now. It was there, and you dealt with it, man. I had my eye on the prize. Franklin: What was the prize? Guice: To have a future. To have a future. At the time being, when we were little, your future was out here at Hanford. That was the best jobs—the best-paying jobs. I really concentrated on what my dad told me. We were to ride around in east Pasco, and we had our old co-op station. Maybe Vanis could—because he was one of my mentors, always. Vanis always done good. You had Ed Smith, you had Dr. Wiley, CJ Mitchell, people out here that lived in Richland and they worked out at Hanford. But getting back to my original story, I would ride around with my dad, and he would see—he would show me guys older than him that worked out here that retired. And he would go see some of those guys over there playing dominoes. That’s what you want to be able to do when you get that age. Franklin: Instead of having to work. Guice: Instead of having to work. So get something that has a pension and some benefits, so you can relax when you get older. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Did your parents ever talk about what it was like growing up in east Texas? Guice: Well, I experienced it. Franklin: Really? Guice: Yeah, that was really segregated. I’m talking like, white-only bathrooms, black-only bathrooms. We would—me and my brother would always get in trouble when we went back to Naples, Mount Pleasant area, Longview. We were just used to getting what we wanted and going up to the front of the line. And more than once, I got pulled on the collar and told that the people of a different color were supposed to go in front of me. And I was just really—really kind of shocking, because I wasn’t used to that. That’s why I’m saying, it wasn’t that bad here. It was bad, but it wasn’t like that. I mean, people calling you down in the South. Franklin: Right, because there was that formal segregation. Guice: It was formal. It was written. And you obeyed. Franklin: Yeah, right, for fear of your life, probably. Guice: Right, right. Franklin: Especially after Emmitt Till and things like that. Guice: Right. Franklin: And how often did you back to east Texas? Guice: Every summer. Franklin: Every summer. Guice: Every summer, we would get on the Southern Pacific, and it would go up north, and we would go to St. Paul, Minnesota, it’d take two and a half days, and go all the way back down to Texas. My mom didn’t want to go on the other trains—we rode the train—because she said it was too dirty. So we spent two days on the Southern Pacific. St. Paul, Minnesota, we’d go to and look out the window in the train station, look at the Mississippi River, which—I was three, four, five, six—we went every summer to be with my grandparents. Franklin: Oh, okay. Yeah, I was going to ask who you were seeing there, but that makes sense. So I’d like to go back to this—you mentioned there was this demonstration in Pasco in the late-‘60s that you said you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Guice: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: I haven’t heard of this yet, but—maybe because we just started the project, but I’m wondering, how were you—why were you there that day? Guice: Well, for one, I was Afro-American, black. I guess I was brown or Negro back then. Didn’t know what I was for a long time. But I can remember there was a bunch of us: me and my buddies, we got together at Kurtzman Park. Why it really started, I can’t remember. But we ended up in the park across the street, at the city park, right across the street. And it just escalated from there. There was some stuff going on, like, all over the country. Like I said, I can’t remember when it started, but we went over and the trees got set afire. The cops came and they shot teargas to disperse the crowds. So that’s how I kind of got caught up in that. Franklin: Wow. Tell me about going to school in Pasco. Were the classes that you went to—actually, I’m going to back up. Where did you live in Pasco? Did you live in east Pasco? Guice: Not at the beginning. Way back in the day, in the late ‘50s—I was born, like I said, I was born in Pasco. But right across from the courthouse, there was—it’s the senior citizen apartments right now, it’s called Parkside. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: Parkside, I was born in Parkside. And then we moved—we were moving on up, one up the street to the Navy homes, and I was in the Navy barracks, right there on 4th—4th and 1st, on the corner right there, where the Boys and Girls Club is now, in those apartments there. I stayed there until 1966, and then we really moved on up, and we moved to east Pasco. We had a house. So we moved into east Pasco in 1966, Owen Avenue— Franklin: Oh, sorry— Guice: Owen Avenue. Vanis lived two doors down, across the street from us. Franklin: Oh, okay. How close to you in age is Vanis? How close were you guys? Or far apart in age are you? Guice: Oh, probably, I don’t know. I’m 65, and I think Vanis might be in his late 70s. Franklin: Okay, so he was somewhat—you mentioned earlier he was somewhat of a mentor to you, kind of someone that you looked up to. Guice: Anybody that stayed—you know, my dad—anybody that stayed out of trouble, went to work everyday, had a car, had a roof over his head, he was doing all right. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: That’s what it was about. Franklin: Right, making a good life for yourself. Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Tell me about going to school in Pasco. Were your classes integrated, segregated, either intentionally or unintentionally? Guice: Well, we were bussed from we’ll call it junior high—not junior high, but in grade school—we weren’t bussed during that time. But in grade school, I attended Captain Gray. I went to Captain Gray, and I look at my pictures every once in a while. And my kindergarten class, my first grade class, I think it might have been, oh, a couple Afro-Americans, and some Latinos, a couple, and then the rest was Caucasian. And that’s just the way it was all the way up through school until we got to high school. Franklin: Did you ever experience any racism or intimidation from other students or school staff when you went to school, because of your color? Guice: Well, you mean me personally? Franklin: You personally, and/or did you hear of any? Did you observe any? Guice: Oh, it happened. I would be really naïve to say it wasn’t happening. But my point is that—I was an athlete. A pretty good athlete. So I might have got away with some stuff that normal people, the average joe, didn’t get away with. I’m not boasting, but I had—because I had to intermingle with some of my Caucasian friends on the competition fields. So, you know, we hung out more than people that were just in a group and didn’t get into the activities and stuff like that. It kind of trickled down. It was there. You would hear it. You would hear it, but I would try—in ’68, our basketball team in Pasco, when the times were kind of heated, we started winning, and it really brought the whole community of Pasco together. It was through sports. Anybody that you interview will know about that time, because it was a real—from ’68, ’69 and ’70, that’s when we really started winning in basketball. And I was a part of that. It brought a lot of people together. Sports does that. You forget about color when you’re rooting for your team or for your town, your city, your state, or whatever. It was there. It was there. It was there. Franklin: Okay. What were your interactions with people from the different cities, like Richland and Kennewick? Guice: Hmm. Well, like I said, it goes back to sports. I done a lot of stuff that if you weren’t playing, people of color didn’t get to do. But I was really fortunate. But you know, there used to be a sign on the Kennewick bridge, don’t get caught over here after night and stuff like that. We would ride over to Zip’s, yell things out the window and take off, and get over across the bridge before we got caught and stuff like that. Franklin: Really? Guice: Oh, yeah. That stuff happened all the time. Franklin: What kind of things—can you repeat them? Guice: Well, no, not on—not on TV. [LAUGHTER] No. Well, you weren’t supposed to be over there, and we were going to show them that we could be over there after dark. It was like—it was pretty bad. And we didn’t branch out to Richland, because we’re not supposed to be over here, and the black kids from Richland didn’t really come to Pasco. So it was—you met them through sports. We’re really good friends now, after all that—you know, after the years. I got some of my best friends are people that I grew up and played against from Richland. But it was just—it was known that you didn’t go to certain places. Franklin: Yeah. I’ve heard a lot about that sign, and I’ve never seen a picture of it. I’ve heard people say that it exists, and that it didn’t exist. Did it exist, that sign on the bridge? Guice: Yeah, it exists. Franklin: Do you remember what it said, verbatim? Guice: No, I don’t remember what it said. Franklin: But the spirit of it, though, was no— Guice: Yeah, as you were going north across the old Green Bridge, it was up on the right. Franklin: Okay. Guice: And Zip’s was right around the corner. That’s how far, just to tell you how intense it was, you could almost throw a rock from the bridge to Zip’s. I mean, it was just right around the corner. Franklin: It is. Guice: And we’d pull out that parking lot, and we had to stay in the car and drive and get the heck out of there before they chased us. Blew a clutch out in the parking lot one time and we had to get out and run. The clutch spring broke on my buddy’s car. Franklin: And you ran across the bridge? Guice: Yeah, we ran across the bridge. Franklin: Wow, hell-raiser, huh? Guice: Well, yeah. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Well, for a good purpose though, it sounds like. How would you describe life in east Pasco, like the kind of community life and community events? What kind of community events were important to you growing up? Guice: Juneteenth was a big one. Franklin: Yeah, tell me about that. Guice: Well, that’s when the slaves got their rights and stuff. And we always celebrated and it was a big deal down at Kurtzman Park. We would have basketball tournaments against Yakima, the black people from Yakima. We’d invite people from Richland. There wasn’t many people in Kennewick, so they were kind of left out. But it was mostly Juneteenth and barbecues. And then back then, east side would play against Navy homes in sports. Because there were a lot of black people in Navy homes, where I grew up. You could just see them walking down the street, and we would meet and have these big baseball tournaments and stuff like that. But official stuff, it was Juneteenth. Franklin: Mm-hm. Why did they call it Navy homes? Guice: Because it was a Navy barracks. Franklin: Okay, and was there a big Navy presence in Pasco? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Was that left over from World War II? Guice: No, I think—don’t quote me on this, but that’s where the Navy stayed, in the Navy homes. Franklin: Okay. So eventually, you graduated—you played sports throughout high school—basketball and baseball, right? Guice: Yes, sir. Franklin: Tell me what happened after high school. Guice: After high school? Franklin: Yeah. Guice: I went to Washington State University. Franklin: Okay. Guice: I played basketball there. I got a scholarship and played basketball. I was recruited by Jud Heathcote, Marv Harshman—they were my freshman coaches. Jud went on to Michigan State and he and my high school coach, Don Munson, recruited Magic Johnson. Franklin: Oh, really? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. Guice: Yeah. I got letters from Coach. But I went up there for a year, and I was a snap pledge at Sigma Nu Fraternity—I was a frat boy. It was two black—Afro-American—fraternal brothers on the whole campus of Washington State University. Franklin: Wow. Guice: Bill Skinner was the other one, and he was from Pasco. We were the only black fraternal brothers at Washington State University in the ‘70s. Franklin: Did you know each other? Guice: Yeah, I went to high school with him. Franklin: Oh, okay. Guice: I grew up with Bill. That’s—because I didn’t go through rush, to get to go see all the houses. I was what you call—I was a snap pledge, and it was because of Bill. It was probably six or seven other people from Pasco that were in the house. So, that was a big part of my life. Franklin: Oh, yeah. So it was kind of like a little home-away-from-home. Guice: Right, right. It was probably the Madisons, Bill Skinner and myself. Franklin: And that was in 1970, ’71? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Still was probably a pretty charged time. Was there anything—any tension out at WSU campus? Guice: Ooh, boy, yeah. Black Panthers. It was really rough for me at the beginning, because they couldn’t understand why this guy was standing all over here with all these white guys. But it was comfortable when I seen Bill. I was 17 years old, away from—not far away, but away from home. And it was comforting. But I would’ve never gotten out of there if I hadn’t joined that frat. It was really—it gave me some structure. It was kind of like being in the military. But, you know, a little lower key, but there was certain things you had to do. Franklin: Sure. Guice: Jud—Coach Heathcote—and Harshman left after my freshman year, and I came back to home. I had a scholarship to play for Dick Hannan in ’72. We were state champions at CBC in 1972. But then I went back and played for George Raveling and got out of school in 1975. Best time of my life. Franklin: Why is that? Guice: I met a lot of good people, done a lot of things, I learned a lot about myself. Because you had to do your own clothes, you had to pay your bills—you grow up. Some of the teammates I had, I still talk to today. It’s just pretty cool. A lot of fun, a lot of fun. Franklin: What did you major in? Guice: Physical education. Franklin: Okay. Earlier you mentioned the Black Panthers. Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Were they active on the WSU campus? Guice: There was a group of Black Panthers on the campus. Yeah, the hats and the leather coats. Franklin: Did you have any interactions with them? Guice: Well, I got called a few names, you know, until they figured out who I was. Yeah. Franklin: Why? Was it because you were— Guice: Because I had no business being over there with all them white people. You know? I was like a fly in buttermilk to them. You know, after they got to know me, and seeing I was there playing ball, and I would go to the parties, and they figured out I wasn’t an Uncle Tom. It was okay, but you still have your militants. It took a while for some of them to come around, but eventually they all came around. Franklin: Was that a common phrase aimed at people, maybe, in your situation at that time, Uncle Tom? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Because I know—I’m obviously aware of the history of that character, but was that—were you called that by any of them? Guice: I was called—well, I wasn’t called that to my face, but you know, it got around that maybe that’s what I was, I had to kind of prove myself. People from Pasco—it was a bunch of people in Pasco—Affirmative Action, we got financial aid and a lot of kids went to school. They would be in a certain—at the hub, inside of the Student Union Building, you had your little section. And they seen I could go to the section and nobody—I was an okay guy. It’s all right, but yeah—people from California—the students from California that were in that Black Panther group, they didn’t understand that— Franklin: Oh, right, because they were maybe from a— Guice: Yeah, completely different. Through no fault of their own. Franklin: Right. It was a much bigger scene, they had been much closer to Watts. Guice: Right, right there, and maybe even participated. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Pasco’s such a smaller community—yeah. And did you kind of eventually make—you mentioned you kind of made peace— Guice: It was all right. By the end of the year, it was okay, it was all right. You still had your guys that just hated everybody, but that’s all right. I didn’t pay no attention to them. It was okay. Franklin: Was there any organized activity in Pasco, either mainstream like NAACP or militant like Black Panther that you remember? Guice: I can’t remember any Black Panthers. But CAC, Community Action Committee. That’s how I actually got into the theaters—Affirmative Action, back in the day. But, yeah, they would have neighborhood meetings and stuff like that, trying to see what we could do for the community, what they could do at the time for the community. So it was—I’m proud of Pasco. It was a lot of people that done the right thing back then. Franklin: And this CAC, this was primarily an African American aid organization? Guice: Yeah, I guess it was formed by the government. It gave them money, and they would try to—Community Action, you know—make good waves in the community and housing and help people get scholarships and go to school with the Affirmative Action program. That’s how—go to CAC, man, they’ll help you out. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember the NAACP being active in Pasco at all? Guice: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don’t know if you remember, but Art Fletcher? He was the first black Republican. [LAUGHTER] He was—god, what President was that? Was it Nixon? But he worked for the President. And Art Fletcher lived in east Pasco. Franklin: Really? Guice: So the NAACP was kind of big. Franklin: Did you know Art Fletcher? Guice: Yeah, I knew him. I used to hang out with his son, Philip. Franklin: Okay. What role did he play in— Guice: I can’t—he was a mucky-muck, man. He was a bigwig. He’d go back to Washington, D.C. Franklin: And you mentioned he was a Republican. Guice: I think that—yeah, that’s what we called him. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Okay. Because that would have been—you know, that was kind of after— Guice: Yeah, that was way back there. Yeah, I’m thinking he was. Franklin: Okay, that’s just interesting—I mean, not to say it doesn’t happen, but generally, that was after kind of the great political shift, after civil—okay. So you ended up, after college—oh, sorry, before that, I wanted to ask—you went to college and you graduated. What level of education did your parents get through? Do you know? Guice: They graduated from high school. Franklin: They both graduated from high school. Guice: Yes, sir. Franklin: And then you mentioned your mother went to CBC. Guice: Yeah, and got a cosmetology license. She was a hair dresser. Franklin: I wanted to ask about your dad again before we came to your Hanford work. You mentioned he worked at Hanford and then he worked out on the dams. Did he go back to work at Hanford at all? Guice: My dad? Franklin: Yeah. Guice: No—oh, yeah. See, he was in the union. I don’t know if you know how that works— Franklin: I don’t. Guice: Okay. So, they need x amount of laborers, especially cement finishers out at Hanford. They call the hall, the union hall—the laborers’ hall. And they would ask—they have a list—one, two, three, four down. And if you’re on the top of the list, so you’re one of the 12, you got to go out there. See, the dam had a call. So those guys that were 13 are number one, so he would go out there. So he worked on the dams and back out—it just depended on the layoffs and the hiring. He was back and forth forever, as long as I can remember, between the dams and Hanford. Franklin: Okay. Always doing concrete. Guice: Always doing concrete. Franklin: Was the union—you mentioned he was usually a foreman of a crew. Was the union in general, was it integrated, or was it a separate African American— Guice: No, it was integrated. Franklin: But generally, though, he was on an all-black—he was the foreman of an all-black— Guice: Yeah, I mean, just from what I could see. He would talk about his crew and he would name people and those were his buddies. It was five or six of them in the car, and they all worked for them. So I just took it for granted that was his crew. But I wasn’t—oblivious of white people being out there, too. I mean, when you do that, you have to work together, but his crew was predominantly black. Franklin: Okay. How old do you—when do you remember finding out what was being made at Hanford? How old were you when you kind of cognizant of what was going on out there? Guice: I was probably in junior high school. And the reason I say that—my best friend, Ron Howard—we grew up together. I been knowing Ron since the third grade. And we played ball together all that time. But his dad, Roy F. Howard, worked at Battelle. They had the beagles over there, and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the story about the dogs they had over there smoking cigarettes? Franklin: I have. In fact, we have pictures in our collection. Guice: Okay. He worked over there, and then Mr. Howard would come home and tell us about some of the stuff that was going on out there. So I was probably in the seventh grade. Franklin: Okay. Guice: I figured out that it was something weird going on out there. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: And you didn’t want to go out there too far. I mean, there were stories about the river and getting stuff, but I’m still here and I played in that river all my life. But there’s a bunch of stories going on. Franklin: Yeah. Did you ever—so your father worked there during the Manhattan Project. Guice: Yes, sir. Franklin: Did he ever talk to you about when he found out what he was working on, what all that concrete he was pouring was for? Guice: You know, there was a lot of radiation. I don’t think they really knew what they were getting into, because you know, the statistics are showing now—I’m not going to say that’s what caused it, but the numbers are overbearing. People that worked out there that they started getting all this stuff and they’re now no longer with us. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: So I can imagine—I’m going to tell you like this. I can imagine how it was for them. You got between me and my dad. And I worked out there. When I worked out there at 100-N, Tank Farms, we’d have to do maintenance and we could get 300 millirem a week. And it takes 1,000 millirem to make a rem. Okay, we’d get that in a week. Say you got that in five days, the number that you got on that Monday fell off on the next Monday. So you sat in the bullpen for a week. So, my point being is you can’t even get that a year now. That’s how much has changed. So there was no regulation back when my dad was working, and I don’t even think they knew what they were getting into. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: Because I don’t think he ever had to dress up, or—I don’t remember him telling me that he had to put on booties and a white suit to do anything. Franklin: Right. Did he talk about—did he ever talk about the bomb and its role in ending the war and his part in that? Guice: No. Franklin: Or how he remembered that? Guice: No, he didn’t share anything like that. Franklin: Okay. Guice: No. Franklin: Was your dad working out on Site when President Kennedy came to the Site? Guice: Yes. Franklin: Did you go out there to see him? Guice: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Tell me about that. Tell me about that day. Guice: Well, we just got in the car and we went out and sat on the side of the road and watched him drive by. That was pretty much it. Franklin: Did you go out to N Reactor and watch the speech and all? Guice: No, I think we were on George Washington Way. Him and his buddies, they got the day off. Just waved at him when we drove by. Franklin: Okay. So, eventually—after graduating, you—what did you do after you graduated? Guice: When I got out that summer, I got employed by Employment Security for the State of Washington. I was interviewing the counselor for the unemployment office—Employment Office, not the Unemployment Office. They taught us the right way to say that. But I was there for 13 months, and then I got wind of United Parcel Service, UPS, was hiring. Back in the day, they didn’t advertise, so it was somebody that worked there that I played softball with that let me know that the main guy from Seattle, Mr. Campbell, was coming down. And I got hired in ’75. I worked for UPS from ’75 to ’80. And then in 1981, I left there—I was getting into the fitters, so I was just kind of waiting on the list. I went out and I worked at Boise Cascade for 13-and-a-half months and I then got in the fitters in ’82. Franklin: And then where did you—and that’s how you came to Hanford, right? Guice: Yeah. Franklin: So tell me about that. Tell me about your time working at Hanford and the different jobs you did and things like that. Guice: Okay, well, I’m a seam fitter out of Local 598 in Pasco. 35 years in the trade. My first job was at Hanford #2, when they were building 2. We had 1, 2 and 4, and 3 and 5 were across the mountains over at Satsop. I was doing the construction, and that was a really—that was really a wild time. I’m surprised that place is still standing up. Franklin: I’ve heard that. Well, 2 is—is 2—one of them is not completed, right? Guice: Well, see, we got 2. 1 and 4 is sitting out there; they’re mothballed. Franklin: That’s right. Yeah, I’ve heard stories about that. Guice: “The Boomtown Cowboys,” it was an article in Playboy about the Boomtown Cowboys. Franklin: Really? And that was the people that worked at WPPS? Guice: Yeah. A lot going on, man. [LAUGHTER] And a lot of travelers. I think at the time there was probably 3,000 travelers in the Tri-Cities from all over the country working there. They had all three of those places going. Well, five of them: 3 and 5 were going also over in Satsop. So it was a bunch of people here and bunch of stuff happening. Franklin: And then it all went bust, right? Guice: Yeah, in what? ’80—God, right, I was only out there for a little bit right at that time—I think in ’83, ’84, they shut it down. The bonds went bad and—shew. Franklin: And what did you do then? Guice: I hit the road. Franklin: Yeah. Guice: I hit the road. Traveled all over the United States. Mostly on the west side. Because of my radiation experience, I worked in Pocatello, Idaho at INEL, on their side. I worked there off and on for three to five years. And then just all over the country. I worked at Oswego, at the nuclear plant in Oswego. Just all over the country. Once you got that clearance, you could pretty much bounce around all over the place at these nuclear plants in the United States. They’d even pay you to apply if they didn’t hire you. Franklin: Wow. Guice: They’d send you 100 bucks just for applying. Because it was so hard to get people that had already been cleared and they didn’t have to go through all the schooling. So that happened right out here. Franklin: Wow. Guice: Yeah. Some of the best training around. Franklin: What are some of the other sites out at Hanford that you worked at? Guice: I worked at 100-N, K Basin, FFTF, Fast Flux Testing Facility, over at 1 and 4 for a little bit, and my last job, I was a general foreman over at the warehouse on Stevens, right down Battelle Boulevard, that big warehouse there. That was my warehouse. I ran that. The pipefitters’ general foreman for 12 years right there. And all that pipe that’s out south of that, that was my laydown. I still call it mine. I’ve only been retired two years, but I still say mine. But we took care of all that, and when they had a material request for the Vit Plant, we put the stuff on the trucks and sent it out to them so they could build the place. And it’s still going on now. Franklin: Great. You mentioned a bit ago about Affirmative Action and the CAC. Did that also play a role in—when you got into the Pipefitters’ Union? And how diverse was that union when you— Guice: Well, like I said, I went to college in ’70. But from ’68 to ’70, and it went on after that; I’m just talking about some of my friends. If you done okay in school, and you—you had to take a test, you had to go the employment office, your math test, your dexterity test—if you got past that, there was a pretty good chance that the people at CAC and Affirmative Action, you could get into the Electricians, Laborers or Pipefitters, depending on your test scores. And it played a big part—I could’ve gotten in in ’70, but like I said, I went to school. So I missed out on probably like 12 years. I didn’t miss out; I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. I wouldn’t say I missed out. But the opportunity was there, if you were a person of color, to get one of these jobs. And that was the way—that was the tunnel to it. That’s how most of the people from Pasco got—Affirmative Action was big. Franklin: Yeah. What are your feelings about Affirmative Action? Guice: Well, it helped me. It helped people of color. I don’t know how it really started. But I’m glad it did. I guess it was equality in numbers. Quotas, if you don’t mind me saying. And they had to have them. Wrong way to do it, but they had to have them. And then—it even went into females after a while. So, it just helped people when people don’t want to stand up and do the right thing, to get your foot in the door. Sometimes you have to knock them down, and Affirmative Action done that. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. In what ways, if any, did security and secrecy at Hanford impact your work when you were— Guice: Can’t talk about it. [LAUGHTER] Guice: I signed. I can’t talk about it. Franklin: Okay. Really? Guice: Seriously. Franklin: Okay, that’s cool. That’s funny; I’ve never gotten that answer to that question before. Guice: I was—I don’t—there’s things I can say, and I’ve seen stuff. I was supervision, so I’ve seen a lot. Some of that stuff—I’m not going to say, to get to where—should I say this, or should I say this—I’d rather not. Franklin: Oh, no, so I’m not asking about what kinds of secret things did you see; I’m asking, like, in what ways did that focus on secrecy and security impact your daily work at Hanford? How was that different from working in a non-secure environment? Guice: Structure, discipline. You had to have it, because there was like zero tolerance. There was, for instance, walking by and looking at somebody’s screen. That was a no-no. Leaving your screen on for more than two minutes, that was a no-no. Just certain things that, due to training—harassment, zero tolerance. That was really a big deal, also. It was just things you learned in your training to get out there. Certain things that you didn’t do. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Let’s see here. I’m just kind of looking through the rest of my— Guice: That’s fine. Franklin: Where did you—when you came back to settle in the Tri-Cities—do you still live in Pasco today? Guice: Yes, sir. Franklin: And how come you choose to move back to Pasco? Guice: Well, for work. Franklin: Okay. Guice: I came back in 2000. And I helped build the plant at the Chemical Depot, the demilitarization plant, to get rid of all the bombs. Franklin: Oh, down in Umatilla. Guice: Yeah, Umatilla, the Chemical Depot. So we built that, and that’s the reason I came home. Get on the phone and call, my number came up. And I went out there in 2000, and I was there from 2000 until 2003, and we completed that plant. That’s the reason that I came home, and then shortly after that, 2004, I came here, and I was there until ’16. Franklin: Okay. Guice: Yeah. Franklin: Do you still have family in the area? Guice: My brother’s here; my sister’s in Waukegan, Illinois. Mom and Dad have passed, and I have ten grandkids, nephews and nieces that are still here. Franklin: Wow, that’s quite a big family. I forgot to ask about siblings. You said you have a brother and sister? Guice: Yeah, my brother Rayford, he’s a welder-pipefitter, retired. Franklin: Older or younger? Guice: Younger; I’m the oldest. Franklin: Okay, you’re the oldest. Then you have a sister as well? Guice: Sister, Jackie. She’s a respiratory therapist in Waukegan, Illinois. Franklin: Okay. That’s great. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Or actually—you didn’t work at Hanford during the Cold War. Well, you did a little bit at WPPS 2. I guess, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford, how about that? Guice: This generation? Franklin: This generation and future generations. Guice: What would I—I don’t understand the question. Franklin: I’m going to rephrase that question. In fact, I might just scrap that question. Guice: No, don’t scrap it. Franklin: I think I have a better question. Guice: Okay. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about growing up during Civil Rights era? Guice: I would probably share what my parents shared with me. It’s to respect where you come from, respect your elders, because there was people before you that paved the way so you could have a better life, and to respect that. And if they carry that on, it’s never going to be okay; there’s just too many people. It’s never going to be okay, but if people keep their eye on the prize, and do the right thing, and respect where they come from, and give back. When you get to wherever you want to go, try to help the person next to you or behind you to get into a safe place. Franklin: That’s beautiful. Is there anything else that you would like to mention related to migration, segregation, civil rights, and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Guice: Well, I would like to say I’m probably really grateful that I didn’t experience the really, really bad stuff. I’ve always had pride in my color. I was raised that way. But I was also taught you got to get along to get where you want to get. I’m not saying kissing any butt or anything like that—I hope I didn’t say nothing wrong—but you got to get along with people. And we did that when I grew up. That’s the reality, and it’s life. But you can—if you want to, there’s probably nothing that you can’t do if you really want it. Not saying it’s not going to be a rocky road and you’re going to have to take some stuff, but if you keep your eye on the prize, you can get there. And some people do and some people don’t. I wanted it. Franklin: Yeah, and you got it. Guice: Yeah, well, I was raised that way. Franklin: Well, it sounds like your parents did a good job. Guice: Well, thank you. Franklin: Gordon, it was really a pleasure to interview you. Thank you for coming out and talking about your experiences growing up in Pasco and working at Hanford and just your whole life. Guice: Well, thanks for having me. Franklin: Great. Guice: Appreciate it. Franklin: Yeah, no problem. Okay. Guice: Thank you. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-N Reactor Tank Farms WPPS K Basin FFTF Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1982-2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Guice Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Civil rights Civil rights movements School integration Racism Sports Pullman (Wash.) Basketball Affirmative action Description An account of the resource Gordon Guice was born in Pasco, Washington in 1952 and worked on the Hanford Site various times between 1982-2016. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffe043af3846776e389ff8a8681a88431.jpg 1d9746b2f7feed8074166fc471965977 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F36e58cb630d8fbdedc6ee21db97c8258.mp4 06e803929dbc9370d6cde92f8b1e162e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Northwest Public Television | Kaas_Gordon </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Robert Bauman: So just for official purposes, my name is Robert Bauman and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Gordon Kaas. Is it Kaas? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Gordon Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. On June 12, 2013. And the interviews are being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Kaas about his family's history and memories about their experiences in Richland growing up in that community. So maybe, Mr. Kaas, you can tell me, first of all, a little bit about your family and maybe how your family came to the Richland area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well my father was an immigrant from Denmark and he came here right after the turn of century. Lived in Madras, Oregon for a while and his brother was up here in Richland. He come up here and he was a farmer. He bought some ground here in what's North Richland and planted the majority of the acreage to apples. His brother took care of the orchard for about the first three years while he lived in Madras, Oregon. That's where he met my mother and they were married. And they moved up here I think it was 1915, after the orchard began to bear. My oldest brother was born in Madras, and then I've got two older brothers, Nelson and George, that were born here, plus my only sister, and then myself and my twin brother. The three older brothers are deceased now but my sister and my twin brother are still living. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And do they live in the area here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My sister lives in Kennewick. That's Alice Chapman, her husband James, live in Kennewick. And my twin brother and I married sisters, but they live in Kenai, Alaska. And he was a plumber. When I got out of high school, we had moved to Kennewick in 1943, because the government said to pack your belongings and go, you've got 30 days. However, we lived far enough north that they gave permission for those that lived up on from here, there's a little rise in the contour, that area they let farm their crop that year. So instead of moving in February or March, we didn't move until November of 1943. That's where the remaining five of the six children were born. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you'd mentioned your father came from Denmark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what you know about why he came to the United States, and maybe the same for your mother. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my mother was an immigrant also, emigrated from Prince Edward Island, Canada. And I had the pleasure of visiting back there this past summer. First time I'd ever been there. My father came over because of the opportunities that were in the US, and there was a lot of people moving to the New World. His background was farming. I think I mentioned he was the youngest of 12 children, and two brothers and a sister had immigrated over here ahead of him. So he had a little forewarning of what was here. And at that time, this area here in Hanford and White Bluffs was a fairly new irrigation area and was attracting people from around the country, and around the world, I guess you could say. Because there was other Danes and Norwegians and Swedes here. When I was small, when I grew up, we had an apple orchard. But during the Depression in the ‘30s, apples was one thing that people didn't have to have and consequently, the market went away. And at that time, peppermint was coming in and he hired a county bulldozer to come in and bulldoze the trees out and planted peppermint. And raised peppermint, as long as we was on the farm. I should clarify that in 1949 I lost my father, and I and my twin brother were between our sophomore and junior year in high school, so we became the farmers. And that was after we had moved from Richland to Kennewick. We had a 40 acre farm here in Richland and the war took my three oldest brothers. My father had the option of keeping one of them at home to help on the farm, but he wouldn't do that. My sister, and my twin brother and myself became farmers fairly quick. And then we moved to Kennewick in 1943, and in 1948 he had come down with cancer. And in '49, he passed away in the middle of August of '49. By that time my twin brother and I was the only ones still in school and we became students and farmers both. And then after we graduated from high school, my mother leased the place out. And I ended up taking a job out in Hanford. I worked out there for 21 years, but never got the thought of the farm out of my head. In 1972 my wife and I and we had two children at that time, a son and a daughter. And we bought a farm six miles north of Pasco. And that's been our home ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you returned to your farming roots? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah. What about your mother? You said your father passed away, unfortunately, in 1949. How about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My mother lived for some years later. I think she died in-- I can't remember the date on it like I can my father—but in the mid '70s. I think it was '78 that she passed away. And at that time the farm was being sold for plots for houses, and now it's all houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So how many so how many children were there in your family then? How many siblings did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: There were six. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Six, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I had three older brothers. Then my sister come along. And then to finish out the six was my twin brother and I. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: You and your twin brother. And you and your twin brother were born in hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We were the only ones that were born in the hospital. Because thought there might be some complications. So we were born in the Pasco Lady of Lourdes Hospital. The rest were all at home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And you talked about how the primary crop was apples for quite a while until at some point in the Depression you shifted to peppermint. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And were there other crops that you grew as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we had of course, alfalfa because we had a few livestock. We had asparagus. And that was up early and that was the asparagus fields. My three older brothers were in the service. Two of them in the Army and one in the Navy. We'd get up early and go cut asparagus. And when we were left on our farm through the summer we'd see everything booming out here, trucks going by. We lived right on George Washington Way. And we'd be out in the field and watching the trucks headed north where the construction was going on. And we had strawberries. We had a few potatoes. Then, of course, peppermint. And all that ground was real irrigated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: How was that irrigated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Real irrigated where you had corrugates that the water ran down. And so I was changing water twice a day. And my father worked from daybreak to dawn. But as time went on, we were more help. After the military took my three brothers my dad bought a tractor. And he didn't like the tractor. He liked the horses. So my twin brother and I, we got a lot of practice on the tractor. He put us out on the field and get us started and he'd go do some other chores. We, my twin brother and I, we continued to farm the Kennewick farm. Which, was downsized. It was only 20 acres. At that time though, you could make a living on a farm that size. But I lost my oldest brother in the war. And the next oldest one was in the Army and over in Germany. And the third from the top was in the Navy and over in the Pacific. And after the war was over they came home and took jobs out at Hanford, my remaining two brothers. And when I finished school I got a job out there. And my brother worked out there. My twin brother worked out there on construction. I was a power operator. And in 1972 I'd been wanting to get out on a farm and I said, I got to make the move before I'm 40 or I'm going to give it up. And we found a place to buy. And it's been good to us. My main crop, it started off being alfalfa and wheat and sweet corn. But after a couple years I got into raising potatoes. And that ended up being our main crop until I quit farming. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Got it. Let me just go back and ask you another question, too, about your family farm that you grew up on. So were there other buildings besides the houses? The barn? Any other buildings? And you said it was 40 acres. Is that correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: 40. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so I wonder how large the house was? Were there any other buildings as well that were part of the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, back then it didn't take as much a house as it does today. When my folks moved up here from Madras, Oregon--and I can't tell you--I think it was around 1917 or 1918. They had the ground but there was no buildings on it. But there was a small house. I think it was about a two-room house that my dad's brother and him moved from what would be over on--is that--what street is that? Over to the west? Anyway, they moved it from there to onto Georgia Washington Way where we lived. And then he added onto that. And then just before the government came in, we had enlarged the house and the next year was another project to finish it. But it started off being a two bedroom. And small ones at that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Now, it was originally, was there an outhouse? What did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We didn't have neither electricity or running water in the house until--it was about 1940. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So not too long before the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. And that was a big improvement. My mother didn't have to pack water for the washing machine or carry it out. But we didn't have any electricity. So the washing machine had a little gas engine on it. And like most, Monday was wash day. And that'd be all she'd get done except cooking some meals. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So was there a well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, we had a well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: That was before my time. But I remember that he had a nephew that came over from Denmark plus my uncle lived here and there was a hand-dug well. And that was on the property that is the Energy Northwest headquarters now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. And what about neighbors? Who were your closest neighbors? Were there other families that you socialized with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. We had one neighbor that lived right across the road. And others close. I can say there was one, two, three--about five that lived in walking distance. You know, a 20-minute walk at the most. It was interesting. In the early spring of 1943 there was a number of cars that had come into town. And they were driving different places. It was late enough that some farmers were out in the field. The next day they were all in town at the schoolhouse. And they called to me and said that the whole community, including White Bluffs in Hanford was being evicted for a government project. And that's all they would say. Nobody knew what was ready going on out there until after the bombs were dropped. And it was interesting when those people that were here driving in cars were appraisers. And they were going around and appraising the farms of how much to give the farmers for it. Some got very nervous. They thought if you didn't take the first, they might just haul you out in handcuffs or whatever. But they allowed if you didn't accept for the third appraisal. My father accepted the third appraisal. My grandmother, she got nervous. And they got her to sign. I think it was on the second appraisal. But my father, if you didn't sign and take the third appraisal, then they would take it to court. But they give you, I think it was 80% of the offer. And there were a few that took it to court. But my father thought the--But the surprising part about that is the farmers that took the money and couldn't find a farm, the price of the farmland was going up so fast that what would buy a farm when they got the money, a year later was probably only half enough. So those people put a hardship on them. But I can't say our situation put a hardship. Because we was able to find a farm and it was a good form. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how much your parents got for the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You know, I've been wondering that myself. But what I can tell you is that the 20 acre farm we got, it had a big house on it. It had a five-bedroom house plus porch, front and back. It was $7,200. And I'm sure it was in that neighborhood, maybe a little more. Because it was 40 acres rather than 20. And it was the only house still standing in North Richland until it too was torn down oh, 15, 20 years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, it stood for that long? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, because the criteria was that if it had indoor plumbing and electricity they would save it if they could and somebody would move into it. And a patrolman that was hired by the--well, I guess it was GE back then. Or no, it was DuPont. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: DuPont? Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He wanted that house. And he got the okay on it. But he would come by about every three or four days and see what the progress was of us moving out. He was anxious to move in. There was a shortage of homes. And it was used for living for a few years and then it was right in the middle of that big trailer camp that was out here. And it was turned into the office for the trailer camp. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So he moved in shortly after your grandma left then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. When he could see the date that we was going to be out, he had his stuff packed and ready to move. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so how old are you at this time? About 9 or 10 years old? Somewhere in there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was 12 years old when we moved. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: So we moved and we were still moving in November. Because that's when my birthday is. And I remember the time we took the tractor with a big trailer we had behind it with some of the last things. And my dad let me drive it after we got off the highway. I was 12 years old. And our farm, in Kennewick, the address was 3904 West Fourth Avenue now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So what did you think about this at the time as a young boy? You had spent your whole life, at that point, on this farm. And you're suddenly having to move. What did you think? And do you know what your parents thought? Did you talk to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we spent a lot of time driving around to find a farm. We looked up a lot up Prosser Way. I can remember sitting out in the yard there for a couple of hours, my mother and dad talking. And there was a nice big house, older house. It was a little smaller farmer than we had gotten. They finally decided they would take it. And my dad went to the door and said, we've talked it over and we'd like to buy your farm. And they said, well, we're sorry. My husband's down at the court house signing papers on it now. So we were back to looking again. But you can imagine a 12-year-old. We thought this was kind of a thrill, driving around looking at farms and discussing it and where we was going to live. And I can remember several farms we looked at that some of them had a nice house. But the property wasn't the best. The soil wasn't the best. But we was happy when we settled on this one in Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So for you, maybe the fact that you ended up with a nice farm in Kennewick-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, it was a nice farm. Kennewick is a little bit rocky. But it's bearable. The farm we had out here in Richland was a lot more sandy. But heavier soil, you can raise better crops. But sandy soil is easier to farm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So I want to go back to also talking about your early years here. Where did you go to school? And what was the school like? And how many? How big was the school? That sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: The school I went to was built in--which was Lewis and Clark school down in south Richland. And the year I started there it was brand new. Because of the Depression there was money for stuff like that, to generate employment. And Hanford got a new school. And Richland got a new school. And that's where I started the first grade, my twin brother and I. My sister was four years ahead of us. So she was in an old school that they immediately tore down after the new school was built. But my dad was a well thought of man here in this area. And when the irrigation district was in, neighbors twisted his arm till he agreed to go on the board for irrigation. Same for the school district. He was on the board, directors there. In fact, he was the president of the board and signed a couple of my brothers' diplomas. And after we moved, well, some would know Jay Perry, who was a county commissioner in Kennewick. And he came and wanted my dad to run for his place. They talked quite a while. And my dad said, well, Jay, that would never work, because you're a Democrat and I'm a Republican. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He said, I'd do anything to get you in. Whether you're a Republican or not. So that's the only way I knew of what his preference of party. But there was, for farmers back then, there was more done for the farmers than a lot of people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So do you know how big the school was? Do you know how many students there were about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it was an eight-room school, first through the eighth grade. And I would say, there was probably on the average of at least 20 in each class. Then when things got a little tougher, first, well, second grade and half of third was in one room. And the other half of third and the fourth grade was in another room. So they were small enough then that they could do that. But that school was tore down for the replacements that there are now. But it was a nice all-brick school that for old time's sake, I hated to see it go. But both of my children started in that school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, did they really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: For first grade. Because we lived in the south end of Richland at that time. And our--what is the--the Justice over in Pasco, he went to that school. My son went with him. Cameron Mitchell. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, Cameron Mitchell, sure. So what sorts of things did you do for recreational activities growing up on your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Oh, main thing for recreational was work. But we did have time. And when we were little my dad didn't require us to--We never were slave labor by any stretch. But we'd roller skate out on the road. There wasn't very many cars. And we'd play hide and seek and one thing my dad let us do is a couple horse to an old sled that we had that was about four by six, to a horse. And take our dog and we'd go out hunting jackrabbits. Didn't have a gun. But that dog could catch the jackrabbits. And we'd probably get five or six every time we went out. They'd be just wandering out through the sagebrush. We was out at the edge of the farming community here in Richland. So there's plenty of sagebrush ground. And we thought that was great, to go out with the dog. My twin brother and I, and my three cousins from over on the coast would come here. I got a picture of it. Looking at it yesterday, that all five of us on that sled, out jackrabbit hunting. But just things like that. What kids do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Bicycles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh. Yeah. So you were on a farm. Did you go into town much? Into the town of Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it was a five-mile drive on the school bus. Back then we didn't have these factory-made school buses. Generally a farmer would say, I'd like to build a bus and hire it to haul the students. Well, there was an aisle down the center that you sat back to back to and then down each side. And it was just made out of an old truck. And we didn't know what heaters were. Wintertime got pretty cold. But-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> [PHONE RINGS] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: No cellphones then, either. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: No cellphones then either. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I meant to take it out. But I forgot it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I think I was in about the third grade when we got factory manufactured school buses. And they looked as long as a train. And there was three of them. And that picked up students all over the Richland area. And then it wasn't too long after that the government came in and the area just exploded. And it was surprising when you had to, how fast they could put buildings up. They had people in here. They added onto the school and built more schools. But after '43 I wasn't here much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Did you start going to school in Kennewick then at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. I think I was in the fifth grade when we moved to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I was wondering about sort of community activities. Do you have any memories of community picnics or 4th of July celebrations? Anything along those lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. In that time, the boat races--that would be equivalent to what we have now here in the Tri-Cities—was up at White Bluffs. And I remember, several times being young, going up there and watch the boat races. And then there was community picnics. I remember looking at some books at the county fair, before they registered at the picnics, they had them. Found a couple where my folks, my dad registered as being at the picnic, 4th of July picnic, I think they were. Then there was plenty of family gatherings. Maybe two, three, four families would get together and go to the park. But I don't know, it never seemed like we lacked activity. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What about churches? Were churches close by? Did your family go to church regularly? And where were they? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What, church, you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, churches. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my folks heard the Gospel by two homeless ministers in 1921. And the church met in a home. And I'm still in that faith today. We don't have church buildings. So there was churches in town. But they accepted that way and the family grew up in it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. So you mentioned earlier, talking about the Depression, and how your father then sort of changed crops, right? Primary crops. Did you know of any families in the area that maybe lost their farms? Or did you see any other impact of the Depression for other families or for the town itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my uncle lost his--that lived, oh, half mile or less from us. And I remember my dad saying he wanted him to financially help him. He was a bachelor. He had never married until he was 82, I think. And then he married his sweetheart that he had when he was young. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: And neither one of them, they were married. They got back together in old age. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: That's quite a story. Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: But anyway, my dad had to decline him because he said, Jim, I've got a family. And if I did that I would probably lose my farm too. And you're single. Realized I hate to say no. But I just don't have it where I can feel that I could do it. And there were others the same way. But you have to remember that I was-- that was not something I can physically remember. I was too early in the '30s. I was born in '32. I remember him talking about ones that sold out or it didn't have any equity and couldn't make payments. But my father was very frugal. He didn't buy what he couldn't afford, which was very little, that he bought. But yes, when my father decided to push out the orchard, we had a big enough orchard. In fact, it was the largest apple orchard in the Tri-Cities. I can't tell you how many acres it was. But it was 15 acres or so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Do you know what kind of apples? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: At that time, Red Delicious. But he made the decision to take the apples out, because every year he'd be losing a little more money. And plant peppermint. Well, 100 pounds to the acre of peppermint oil was considered excellent. And I never remember him getting less than 100 pounds. And I remembered selling for $7 a pound. And today the price of oil isn't that much better. It's just that the farmers' farms are a lot bigger. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I think, from what I've heard, I know some people that are farming peppermint and $9 or $10 I think would be an excellent price now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So what happened with your uncle then? He lost his farm you said? What did he do at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My uncle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He moved to Oregon. And lived in Troutdale for quite a while. I think he just hired out. He was a stonemason, brick mason. And I think he made a living at that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I want to ask you a little bit about, you talked about the war a little bit and that your older brothers all joined and went to serve. Do you remember hearing about the war? And have any memories about that at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, when the war come on, some time during that we got a radio. And I know my dad listened to the news every evening. My oldest brother, Edward, that was born in Oregon and was the only one that wasn't born here, was drafted into the Army. And he took his training down in one of the southern states. I can't remember for sure now if it was Texas, or--. Anyway, they ended up sending him to a little place by Washington, D.C. that they call Vint Hill Farms. And it was a training, a special training area. And he worked there as, we'd probably called it a cadre that helps do training. But there everything was coal fired. So in the wintertime they had to keep the furnace going and the hot water heater going and snow removal or whatever. And he never did go overseas. But he was on a laundry run. And he was riding in the back of a deuce and a half army truck. And a Lincoln hit the truck head on. And he was thrown up against the cab and killed. So he wasn't-- he didn't see overseas action. But I remember that was a sad day for the family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I imagine. You mentioned having the radio. Did your family get that before the war or at some point during the war, you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: It was during the war. I don't remember. We didn't have a radio while we were still in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. You got it after you have moved to Kennewick at some point. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. So how did you get news when you were in Richland? Was there a local newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, there was a newspaper. And don't ask me if it was daily or weekly or semi-weekly. But well, I guess, in the old days, we took the Spokesman Review. I don’t think--there wasn't a local newspaper. There might've been a weekly. But you're getting too far back in my brain. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, do you know how your family found out about the war, that United States was going to war? Was it through the newspaper? Or sort of word of mouth? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I think all the above. You know, neighbors were close and we did get the Spokesman Review. And I don't know if it was a day late. I think it came down on the train. So it could be the same day. At that time Pasco, its main industry was the train. A train town. And Richland was just a little farming community along with White Bluffs and Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Right. And then was it in the spring of '43 that you first heard about that the government was coming in and was going to be taking people-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, yes. 1943. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: But your family, you have sort of the rest of that growing season. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it must've been later in February or maybe first part of March that that happened. I suppose there's some way I could find out. But I do know that the ones that lived in what we call downtown Richland didn't get to stay and farm their crop. And we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah. I wonder if there's anything that we haven't talked about yet that you think would be important to talk about, something you know, about growing up in Richland, about the community itself, about farming? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we had a great swimming pool, Columbia River. Also fishing. Never had a fancy fishing pole. But go down to the river and cut off a large willow, tie the line on the end of it. Works good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What sort of fish did you catch with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Probably mostly carp. Occasionally we'd get an edible fish. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: But we enjoyed doing it. Some real hot days, the whole family would go to the river. Our firewood, you could put on what they call a boom out on the river. It'd be several logs fastened together with chain or cable. And have an anchor out on the upper end. So it would catch all the wood that was coming down. And that's where we got the firewood. And for the icebox, we'd go down and my dad would saw chunks of ice out of the river and we had a sawdust bin that we would bury the ice in there and it would last long ways into the summer. So things were a little bit crude back then. But none of us died from it. We all made it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Right. [LAUGHTER] What about in the winter? You know, in terms of the river, the river ever freeze over? What sorts of things did you do? Any things that you can say-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: All I can remember about that is that what I've been told. I think I was about two years old when it froze over. And they even drove cars across it. I don't think we had any bridges at that time. It was a ferry that would ferry cars across. And it seems like the winters don't get as cold as they used to here. I don't know if it's a cycle or what it is. But my younger years, we could ice skate on the river, most all winters. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So that was something you did in the winter then for fun? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I don't remember doing a whole lot. But you know, the river is dangerous, and we knew it back then, if the ice only goes out a small ways. So my folks wouldn't--I just know that my folks wouldn't have let us go to the river to ice skate if the ice wasn't thick enough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And you mentioned a ferry. Where was the ferry landing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, there was the ferry landing down at what's Columbia Point, I think, now. And there was another one between Kennewick and Pasco. There was another one up at Hanford, one across. It would come and go as the need was. But I remember the first bridge across the Columbia was long enough ago that I can't really remember it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. I want to ask you a little bit about your employment at Hanford. When did you start working at Hanford? And how long did you work there? And what sort of work did you do there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I graduated high school in 1951. And of course, we were still farming the ground. I did take a job in wheat harvest. And my brother stayed and did the chores that had to be done through the summer. And so my mother paid him what I made, the same amount that I made. So it was like both of us having a job. After wheat harvest was over in September of 1952--I think it was, yeah, 1952--I want out and applied for work at Hanford. And I got a job in the power department, running the steam boilers and turbines and that's out there. And I worked there for 14 years. It was all under GE then. I finished up in what was called the N Reactor. And that's when they built a steam power plant just across the fence from the N Reactor. And I applied for a job there with, at that time was the Washington Public Power. Now it's Energy Northwest. And I stayed there until '72 when I got the crazy idea of being a farmer again. And haven't really regretted it. You go from being carrying a dinner pail to being a businessman in one sense. It takes a lot of money to farm these days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 1: Sorry, one last time. It looks like battery. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 2: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 1: Pretty low. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You can prompt me on anything you want to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You can prompt me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. I'm going to ask you just a little bit more about you working at Hanford. You mentioned working for GE and at the N Reactor, and ask you where else at Hanford you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You asked me where I met my wife. I can give you a little more on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: There you go. And then I may ask you about I know President Kennedy had the official ceremony, right, in '63. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And I'll ask you if you were there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was still working for GE. And it was Thursday morning. I had to work a swing shift that day. So I just stayed out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you mentioned working for GE for a number of years. And then you said you ended up with you working at the N Reactor. I wonder before that, what other parts of the Hanford site you worked at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I started at the C Reactor in the power department. C. B and C were right together. Actually it was the B reactor. Then I got drafted in the army. And in December I went in the service to--they sent my back to Virginia for training. And when the training with over, took a troop ship to Korea. I spent two years in Korea. Part of the time I was first service. War was still on. And then after my two-year stay I came home and they put me back on out there. At that time I'd been communicating with my future wife. And my twin brother, he had a bad ear and they wouldn't accept him. Ironically we was going with sisters. But they weren't twins. And so they decided to get married. So they got a two-year head start on us when I came home. Well, my wife, Beverly, and I got married. And been married ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And how had the two of you met? When did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We was in school together. And the same way with my brother and his wife. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so how many years is that now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Boy, you're-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I'm testing him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Off camera speaker: It'll be 60 next year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: That's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Wow, almost 60. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: It's getting awful close to 60. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah, wow. And so you mentioned you were in Korea for two years. And the war was still going on when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And what sorts of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I went in and they put me in the medics. And I took my medic training down in Camp Pickett, Virginia. And then sent me to Korea. I was a medic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And then one other thing I wanted to ask you about, during your time working at Hanford, President Kennedy was here in, I believe it was September of '63. August or September of '63 to dedicate the N reactor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I was wondering if you were there at that time and if you have memories of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was. I was there. And witnessed his groundbreaking. He flew in in a helicopter and flew out in a helicopter. I think probably went up to Moses Lake, where they parked the plane. And it was interesting that I happened to be on the swing shift at that time. So when the ceremony was over I had to go over to the plant and start my shift. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Was there extra security that day? Or do you have any memories of a lot of people there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Very much so. You know, that was just not long before he was assassinated. And there was a lot of security. There was three helicopters came in. And the doors opened on all three of them. They come to land, you didn't know which one he was on. But the first thing you seen was they pulled a machine gun up in the doorway. And they looked all directions before they left anybody off. And there was a big crowd there. That was very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Were there any other events during your time when you worked at the Hanford site that sort of stand out? Any significant happenings or anything that sort of stands out in your memory? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They formed a rescue crew out there. They outfitted an older bus. And I think there was about three or four different crews, maybe five. We never did get called to an event, like there's been several around the United States since. But that's what we were trained for. And I was on one of those crews because I'd been a medic in the army, was the reason they put me on there. We had drills. But never had to go to an actual event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And obviously Hanford was a place where security was very important. Did you do have to have a special clearance to work there? Or what do you remember about some security processes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. I had what they called a Q clearance, which was top clearance, with everybody that was full time employed. That the only ones that would get out there was if they had to have a special person, something broke down and had to go out there. And then he had to have an escort. And they told us that you don't talk about what work it is on the job. But at that time, Hanford wasn't classified top secret anymore. After the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that's when they found out what Hanford was building. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Were you able to drive your own car out to the site where you were working? Or would you have to take a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Oh, we had to take an expensive bus ride. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They charged us a nickel each way. And nobody could afford to drive their cars. If you did, you car pooled. But because the buses didn't have any air conditioning, just the windows. But as long as I worked for GE I rode the bus. When I started working for Washington Public Power we car pooled. They didn't have an option. But they paid us for travel time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And how long did you work for Washington Public Power then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Seven years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Seven years. '65 to '72? So anything else that I haven't asked you about, either about growing up on the farm here in Richland or about your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about or you think is important that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Something serious? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, either way. No, it can be funny. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I remember when my twin brother and I was out and we had a watermelon patch. And we thought it was time to pick the watermelons. And we'd pick a whole pile of them. My dad said, well, those aren't ripe yet. We'll have to feed those to the pigs. So the pigs got watermelon early. But you know, we would--that's some of our pastime would be walk around the neighbors and such. There wasn't too many dull moments. Especially, my mother used to say that when you have twins, well, one can't think of the other kin. So I guess you can take from that what you want. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. If you had to sort of sum up for someone who wouldn't know much about the area, what it was like growing up in the small community at the time, growing up on a farm at the time, what would you tell them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, that there wasn't many dull moments. I think there's an advantage that kids today don't have. We grew up having responsibility to know that there might be a little time for play. But they're also work to be done. I can remember going out in the fields of whole peppermint and my dad would take two rows where my brother and I, we'd take one apiece and pull the weeds out. And we'd fill up a gallon jug of water. Had a burlap sack wrapped around it and dipped it in water before we went out. And that would keep cool. That was our drinking water. Had to come in in time for chores. We milked as many as five head of cows. But at the time my dad got sick we only had two milk cows. And a couple of horses and several young stock. And then there was 4H and FFA. That was after we moved to Kennewick. I can't remember much more about Richland, only being 12 years old and there's probably more. But I'll think about it after our interview is over. I remember riding the bus was quite a treat. When we got the new buses in Richland it was, as I said, I think I was in about the third grade. It was quite a treat. And they said there was heaters in them. But we couldn't tell when winter come. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Didn't feel like it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They weren't very efficient. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Well, thank you very much. This has been really interesting, very informative. I appreciate it. You’ve been great. Thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Have you interviewed others? </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gordon Kaas Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02:57 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 232kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor B Reactor C Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1915-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1952-1972 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kaas, Nelson Kaas, George Kaas, Edward Chapman, Alice Perry, Jay Mitchell, Cameron Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Kaas Description An account of the resource An interview with Gordon Kaas conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-8: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/12/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. B Reactor C Reactor Hunting Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff96e4ac54ca8209081ef823bf78f766e.JPG 8d5dfc28e03857a588f64655c85def6c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F352c93051f62d9c5ef4ce99e165b9188.mp4 484166c12110093d691c25964d5b012c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Mitchell Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin and I am conducting an oral history interview with Greg Mitchell on April 23rd, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Greg about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Greg Mitchell: My full name is Gregory, G-R-E-G-O-R-Y, last name Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L. No middle name. Franklin: No middle name. Mitchell: Or initial. Franklin: Wow, okay. Where did your parents move here from? Mitchell: Well, if we go way back, my parents started in a little town called Kildare, Texas, which is in the northeastern corner of Texas. Some people will know the town of Texarkana. The closest airport there is Shreveport, Louisiana. And then they moved to Chicago, where my older brother was born. And then from Chicago they moved out to Washington State. There’s some history prior to that with my dad and mom and going back and forth. But as far as I remember, my folks were living in Hermiston, my brother was—he’s two years older than me, so he was probably a year or maybe a little bit, not quite two years old. Dad was here working on McNary Dam, so they were residing in Hermiston. Shortly after that, when that project was completed, they moved to Pasco. We had relatives here—he did, on his mother’s side, two uncles. He moved here to work construction on the Blue Bridge. From there, he migrated work-wise out to the Hanford Site. As a youngster, I remember, my best recollection is remembering my dad coming home, getting off the Hanford buses when we lived in the south end of Richland down in the Craighill area there. Our address was 100 Craighill, I’ll never forget it. Never forget my phone number and the experience of growing up in the south end with lots of friends and going to Lewis and Clark Elementary School in Richland. Franklin: Great. What year did they come to the Tri-Cities? Mitchell: Well, like I say, I was born in Pasco, so I assumed that they arrived shortly before that, and I was born July 31st, 1953. So I would assume that they had to move prior to that. Franklin: What do you know about their lives before they came to work out here? Mitchell: What I know is just been in conversation with my mom and my dad and then the visits that I made to the Kildare, Texas area as a youngster, and then later on as an adult, that they were—they brother grew up in a rural area, very small community—very, very small. And they were neighbors, field-to-field neighbors, approximately probably quarter-mile apart, up the road and around the corner from each other. So my dad married the girl next-door. Yeah, and they ended up out here, and rest is history. Franklin: Heh heh. What do you know about their initial experience of coming to work here and finding a place to live? Mitchell: Their initial experiences is just related to being black in a predominantly white community. What I know about it—I don’t know a lot about it, what I’ve heard about it after the fact, was strictly conversational. As you may have gathered in your interviews with my father and maybe interviews with my brother, that the Hanford—the Manhattan Project, Colonel Leslie Groves, when they embarked on this whole project, it was made known to the point of being put in writing that blacks were going to be used for construction. They were not going to be used for operation, maintenance and follow-on. And then addition to that, that blacks were being steered to the east side of Pasco. With that type of environment and atmosphere, again, being a youngster, I didn’t experience it, but I did hear stories about it. From my parents, from folks that—relatives that were here, locally, friends of my parents, older folks that had been around that had migrated up here when all the livable wage jobs became known and people tended to come this way from the South and other parts of the United States. My personal experiences came a little bit later. But I did hear about it. We didn’t question it too much. It wasn’t real overt. But when the topic came up, they were pretty open about the fact that there were some restrictions driven by the times and the thought processes of the times. They were centered on the color of your skin. Franklin: Your family wasn’t steered towards east Pasco. Mitchell: My family originally was. Franklin: Originally was? Mitchell: I was born in east Pasco. Franklin: Okay. Mitchell: I remember as a youngster going over to visit relatives. Shortly after I was born, my parents chose to move to Richland. I remember asking Dad about it. He said that he felt he was closer to work; it just made more sense, very practical, and that he was very excited about the school systems. Being so close to the Hanford Site, Richland had a tendency, at least in the minds of lots of folks, to be pretty heavy math-science-oriented. And Dad was very interested in getting us the best education that we could get. So those were the two factors that kind of drove the move: work and education. Franklin: What do you know about your parents’ education, educational experiences when they were children, and how was that different from yours? Mitchell: Well, the one thing that I remember—I remember as a young man seeing an old photograph of my father’s graduating class, and he would chuckle. There were five people total in their graduating class, all black, and he said, yeah, of the five people you see in here, if you take me out of it, three of the four are my cousins. So they grew up in a segregated area in eastern Texas, small school, it was all—they had black educators, black administrators. That was under the guise, I guess, of separate-but-equal. We know that that’s not necessarily true, but that was the selling point of segregation at that point, as explained to me by my parents and other people that I’ve talked to and me doing my studies on history, and then actually visiting and seeing some of these situations. But, yeah, they grew up in a small school, segregated school. I remember one of the things that really caught my attention was the fact that my mother was playing sports. I thought that was so ironic, because my sister—I have four brothers and a sister; there’s six of us altogether. And as we went through the Richland School District at the time that we went through, there were no sports for my sister. So with six of us, my sister kind of had to make it three-on-three and she was, I thought, very gifted, as a youngster. But she had no opportunity to do it. I thought it was so ironic, because we grew up watching my mom play basketball here in Richland, listening to her stories about being involved in athletics and being able to play athletics as a youngster. But then we moved here, it wasn’t color-driven, it was just the date and times that were going on that girls did not have the opportunity to participate in athletics as I went through high school and down through probably, I think, almost everybody in our family, there was no girls’ athletics. So to me, that caught my attention. You know, Mom, you played sports? Well, Vanessa doesn’t get to play. That always has been a little bone of contention for me, particularly now that I have granddaughters. I like the fact that they have the opportunities, not only educationally but athletically. Franklin: Yeah. How would you describe life in the community? In Richland. Mitchell: Well, I guess that for me, personally, I felt that I grew up like Huckleberry Finn. We had lots of warm weather, good summers, playing baseball, going down to the river, being adventuresome out on Columbia Point, which is now pretty well built-up, but at the time that we grew up on that end of time, it was a pretty rural area. There were people that had pastures down there and horses, one of our neighbors had horses down there and my mom would give us permission occasionally to go down. Sometimes we would sneak down, and go down and do our thing along the riverbank. In those days, the wild horses would actually come into town, into the shelterbelt area down in the south end. So for us, as young kids, you know, we thought this was great. It was outstanding. As we went to school, we did notice that there weren’t many people that looked like us in the school district. We had a couple of neighbors, and we had one cousin, female cousin, that was a year older than me, and then their families that had gone through. But we didn’t see a lot of other blacks in the school districts. But initially, it didn’t seem to be a problem. We interacted with the people that we were around, we seemed to enjoy it, they seemed to enjoy our company. I think we kind of naturally fell into positions of leadership, some of it driven by athletic prowess, some of it driven by just, I think, our personalities to extend towards others and they would react. There were times that you would be taken back by an instance that would be racially motivated, or have racial overtones or undertones associated with it. But overall, great place to grow up. Franklin: What did you—hold on a second, you already answered that. Do you remember any particular community events? Mitchell: Community events? Franklin: Could be here or in Pasco. Mitchell: Well, community events, I remember not so much if they were necessarily community—well, I think we used to have what was called Pioneer Days. I don’t know if it was associated with our elementary school or just the community in general. I think that I hang on to the elementary piece of it because I went to Lewis and Clark Elementary, so when you talk about pioneers, that’s about as pioneering as it gets. And there were pretty fun events around the community. I noticed that one of our neighbors, his father was—if he wasn’t the fire chief, he was pretty high up in the fire department in Richland. They would have the Fire Prevention Days and the parade and setting up your bikes and doing your thing. All that kind of stuff, that was fun. But as far as major events? City-wide, no, this was pre-Water Follies and Boat Race Weekend days. Franklin: What was housing like where you lived? Mitchell: Well, where I lived, we lived in prefabricated housing. As some people may or may not know, Richland was, because of the Manhattan Project influence and being driven by the Corps of Engineers, it had a lot of army flavor to it. Armies would set up their living quarters as it was associated with rank. We have what’s now called the Alphabet Houses. The size of your home and the amenities associated with it were driven by your rank, and that carried over in the Manhattan Project. So if you were a laborer, you would usually be directed or offered smaller overall footage housing than somebody that might happen to be a manager, than somebody who might happen to be an upper-level manager. So for us, with my father being a laborer, we were in some of the smallest housing there was. There was eight of us, at one point, in a two-bedroom house with one bathroom. But for us, again, we were happy. Franklin: Did you attend church? Mitchell: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Mitchell: We went to Richland Baptist Church on George Washington Way. My parents, I think, believed it was very important that if we were going to live in the community that we immerse ourselves in the community in all aspects, whether it be social, whether it be in giving back to that community, whether it be in leadership positions in the school district, as a student, them in PTA or whatever it was. And part of that was going to a church that was all-white. We did go back and forth to Pasco, and we got exposed to black churches in Pasco. But our church was Richland Baptist Church, and we were the only black family in that church that I recall for a long, long time. Franklin: Was there—what was different about the white churches in Richland and then the black churches in Pasco? Mitchell: Well, I think the difference had to do with the fact that—one of the things that a black church, even to do this day, has, and it has a legacy of, being a sanctuary for slaves. People that work six days a week in the field, that were owned by other people, one of the few places that they were able to express themselves was at the church without some type of restitution being paid. So that became a location of celebration, outward celebration. Dancing, music. Whereas, I think, when you look at church elsewhere, in this case, a white church, you tend to have a reverent overtone that is quiet, respectful, et cetera. Those differences were very, very obvious. But no less respectful or religious. Franklin: What—oh, sorry, you already answered that, too. Do you recall any family or community events or traditions that people brought from the places they came from? Mitchell: Well, family traditions, let me just think a little bit. I think one of the things—I don’t know if we participated in it so much, but we heard about it. One of the things that people from the South, regardless of color, would do, on New Year’s, the New Year’s Day dinner would always involve black-eyed peas. The idea of eating black-eyed peas—and again, this wasn’t a racial thing; if you go to the South now, they will do this on New Year’s Day, white or black—that is, that it’s supposed to set up good luck for the remainder of the year. So that tradition came with people from the South, again, black and white, that had migrated up to this area for work. But in our house, we would talk about a little bit, my mom would share some of those stories and talk about that being a tradition. It wasn’t so much that we did it all the time. Black-eyed peas were a pretty standard food source. But I don’t recall that we did it specifically for New Year’s, but I remember her telling us about the story and the tradition that that was one of the things that came up with all people from the South. So I thought that was kind of unique and interesting and fun. Franklin: What about Juneteenth? Mitchell: Juneteenth, for me, I wasn’t aware of Juneteenth early as a youngster. I didn’t become aware of Juneteenth until post-adulthood. It started being celebrated with parades and food and different things. But once I was introduced to it and asked about what was it, I was informed that during the Civil War—a lot of these folks are from Texas, and Texas was slow to get the information that the Civil War was over. I believe that Juneteenth is associated with—I don’t know if it was the 16th or the 19th of June—in 1865, was when Texas finally found out that the war was over. In this particular case, war being over, the North winning, slaves had been emancipated, but not necessarily considered free in their own mind and the mind of others. So, this tends to be the celebration date and series of days that commemorates Texas being informed the war is over, slavery is officially ended, et cetera, et cetera, and thus the celebration and follow-on that is done annually to include not just Texas, but is done here because of so many people, particularly blacks, that migrated here from Texas. Franklin: Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Mitchell: Well, I would have to say yes, simply because my parents went to segregated school. So that, the first thing that pops into my mind was, we did not. So that’s a very glaring difference. Opportunities to do other things? I don’t know; I didn’t share any conversations with my parents as to what types of things they may have felt they were limited in being able to do down there that we were not limited to do as their children up here. I can make some assumptions. I don’t think that my parents were able to avail themselves of the opportunities because the information wasn’t there. For example, my brother and myself gaining appointments to military academies with the assistance of congress people and senators. I don’t believe they were able to do that. One thing that I know they weren’t able to do in Texas, which my grandfather on my mother’s side did, and that was black people weren’t allowed to own property unless they were ministers. So my grandfather on my mother’s side and my great-grandfather, his father, and I believe his brother all became ordained ministers for the purpose, not only for religious purposes, but also for the purpose of gaining the right within the State of Texas to own land. So my parents weren’t forbidden from owning land here. So to me, that’s another difference. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. What about work or housing? Mitchell: Worker housing? In what respect, how that differs from what my parents were able to do? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Mitchell: I don’t know what kind of worker housing my parents were restricted in down there. [COUGH] Excuse me. But I do know that worker housing here was segregated, in the form of domicile, food, and that type of thing. You may recall in the interview with my father talking about the Hanford facilities and the shower facilities and how they were segregated and how he and some of the people that came up here with him that were black were given tents initially to live in. That is not something that me or my siblings had to experience in our working at the Hanford Site, or working anywhere else in this area or in the United States, as we grew and moved about. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities limited because segregation or racism? Mitchell: What ways here? Franklin: Yeah. Mitchell: I don’t really feel that they were totally limited. I think that they were probably a little bit scrutinized. And by scrutinized, I think that there were people that were either taken aback or would complain. But in the long run, I would be remiss if I didn’t credit lots of non-black people that assisted in me and my siblings’ development, encouragement, support, whether it be in the school district, whether it be in the neighborhood, whether it be in the church, just as friends, whatever. There were a lot of people that weren’t black that assisted us. For example, my brother getting his appointment to the Air Force Academy, me getting my appointment to the Naval Academy Prep School. I think all the way through my brother, Cameron, and some of the things and accolades that he’s achieved, my sister being involved in some of her work opportunities, working in a bank, my brother, Rob, doing different things, my brother, Nestor, being involved in certain things, were because there were a lot of people that either looked past, felt it was ridiculous, or simply just said, hey, the right thing to do is to judge somebody on character and merit. So in that regard, I don’t believe that we were ultimately limited. I think there were hiccups along the way. There were a couple of things that occurred that were surprising and/or hurtful. I remember one time, I was playing basketball at Richland, I was on the junior varsity team, we had gone to Pasco. I'm the only black player in the program at any level. The game is over, JV team, we had played earlier; the varsity team played later. The varsity game had gotten over. Richland had won the game; Pasco was very upset--obviously, at that time a very predominantly black-populated high school. There were some hard feelings because the rivalry is very intense. And I remember that there were some folks banging on the door accusing one of the Richland players of using a racial slur towards one of the Pasco players. There were folks—black individuals of Pasco, parents, other students or whatever—that wanted at this young Richland player. Well, the coach’s reaction to the banging on the door was to call my name, open the door, push me out the door, close the door and yell, talk to them! Assuming that, because I’m black and they’re black, I could quell the situation. Nothing ever really came of it. In other words, there was no fighting that resulted or anything like that. But it caught my attention that for whatever reason, folks were—and I didn’t feel it was so racial as it was an uneducated fear of black people on the uprise. Please, you’re black, go talk to them. And I thought that that was interesting. But as I got older, I kind of chuckled about the fact that, you know, it was just simple ignorance. Lack of understanding, knowledge, sitting down with someone and finding out about those people to the point of understanding that, if you have 100 black people in the room, you have 100 different personalities. But we had lumped together. I was part of that lump, so, Greg, please go talk to them. I thought that was interesting. Franklin: Could you describe any interactions that you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area? Mitchell: When you say other parts of the Tri-Cities area, you mean like, outside of Richland? Franklin: Yeah. Mitchell: Well, one thing that, along that line, it was common knowledge that in addition to signage—and I’m not sure, but the last time we looked, in the “blue laws” on the books in Kennewick, that blacks were not allowed in Kennewick after dark or after 6:00, sundown, or whatever came first. That was pretty common knowledge growing up, not only for me, but for my white counterparts and colleagues and friends, people pretty much knew that Kennewick, blacks didn’t reside in Kennewick. And to the point where—I didn’t realize until I got older and looked it up, and at that time it was still on the books, not enforced, but it was still on the books. And then I realized that that wasn’t untypical of other places around the Northwest, as we moved around and got a little bit more exposure outside the Tri-Cities. But that was an interesting situation. I didn’t feel that when we would leave for school purposes, whether it be athletically or academically to go and visit in Kennewick school district, I never saw anything that made me fearful, apprehensive or scared. But we would—we being me and my teammates, white and/or black—would laugh about Kennewick. Blacks not living in Kennewick. And then that barrier was broken by a good friend and their family of ours, that when they moved to Kennewick, and they weren’t prohibited from moving— Franklin: Who was that? Mitchell: That was a family, their last name was Slaughters. Greg Slaughter and my brother, Nestor, became very close friends. And then we met the rest of the Slaughter family. Quality people. They seemed to be well-accepted. He attended Kamiakin. So there was—I won’t say that it went away, but I think that they were warmly accepted in their community. I don’t know if it took a little while. I know for us, it took a little while, as we moved within Richland. I remember in my—the summer between my sixth grade and seventh grade year, we moved from the south end of Richland up to the north end of Richland in what was called the Richland Village. The first part of the summer, we lived in a house on Cove Street, and then we moved to the house that I pretty much grew up in on Newcomer Street. At that time, we got there, my mom always encouraged us to get out and do things. As kids, we would cut lawns to earn money and do different things. There was a young man down the street from us, his father was one of the local Merrill-Lynch investment executives. This young man had a paper route, Tri-City Herald paper route and he wanted to give it up. I told my mom about it, she said, oh, get that. We can pass that paper route down through the family so we got a little opportunity to generate money. So I ended up accepting this paper route. At that time, the Tri-City Herald did not have a Saturday paper. Sunday paper was the only morning paper, and Monday through Friday was delivered in the evening. So after school, go and deliver papers, et cetera. I remember when we moved to the Newcomer Street address that my dad had mentioned to me and the three of the oldest of us, of the six, that the day after we moved, that a lot of the houses on either side of us up and down the street and across the street from us, the very next day had for sale signs on them. We just kind of looked at that. Oh, okay. And then it came time for me to collect for the newspaper for that first month that I had been delivering. Across the street and one house over, there was an older couple, and I went to collect for the newspaper. At that time--to set the scene for this--at that time, Little League baseball was put in the sports section just like the Mariners, the by-lines, per inning, and who got hits and who did different things, and it was done regularly. Small paper looking for news. Well, the Little League games were publicized and people could read about it. I go over to collect, and I knock on the door, and this gentleman opens the door. And I said, hi, my name’s Greg. I’m your paperboy. I am collecting for the Tri-City Herald. And he says, just a minute. And I said, okay, fine. So I stood on the porch behind the screen door. He came out to pay me for the paper. And he said, what’s your name again? And I said, my name’s Greg Mitchell. He says, are you one of those Mitchell boys we read about in the paper? Hitting all those home runs and doing all that stuff? And I said, you’re probably talking about my older brother, Duke. He says, yeah, that Duke guy! He says, yeah. I said, yeah. Yeah, we live right over here. He goes, oh, really? He goes, you guys are those Mitchell boys? And I said, yes, sir. And he said, well, come on in. Well, I’m not going to enter anybody’s house, regardless of their color or my color, you know? I said, no, I’ll stay right here. And so he leaves and he walks down the hallway and he yells for his wife. I can’t remember if her name was Elaine or Ethel or Irma or whatever. And he yells for her, Irma/Ethel, come up here! And she’s going, what do you need? And he says, we got a future Bomber standing on our porch! He goes, you got to come out and meet this young man. And it hit me right then, even as a eighth grader. It hit me right then that I guess it’s okay if I can run fast and jump high. You’re going to accept me because there’s something in it for you. But if I wasn’t that Mitchell boy that could run fast and jump high and I just was good at playing clarinet, or if I was really good at doing math equations, or if I was really good at chemistry, would you show me this same respect? I don’t think so. So, at that point, I realized that people may look at you differently for your physical abilities versus your mental abilities. Even to the point where they might overlook the color of your skin. So that stuck with me. I didn’t feel so insulted or hurt, but it was a good lesson. I would experience that a little bit later on as I got older and continued on to high school and became one of those Bomber players and then went on to college to play collegiate football and watched people and fans react. Because of your ability to jump and run and do different things. I always remember my father telling us that, these big sports guys—well, you know, you interviewed him. I’m still involved in sports quite a bit, whole family has been. My kids and grandkids are. And I think it’s great. But my dad would always say, sports is something you do; it’s not who you are. And he always drove that home with us. As much as we were immersed in athletics, education was always first, your character. And that it’s something you do; it’s not how you define yourself. And that was a moment that drove that home. Franklin: Interesting. Do you think--for you and your brothers, sports was a clear path, and as you mentioned, and as I’ve heard in other interviews, sports was a path for acceptance, but it wasn’t so for black women in Richland of your generation. Mitchell: Well, I think that most of our acceptance wasn’t necessarily driven by sports. I think our acceptance was driven by the fact that—as I look back on it, I think our parents instilled in us—either developed and/or instilled in us leadership qualities. Whether it be communication skills, the ability to stand up for what we know is right and different things. I think it was enhanced by athletics, but for us to be able to—like I say, again, I reach back to Duke going to the Air Force Academy, me getting an appointment to Naval Academy Prep School—it’s not because of athletics. I don’t care how good an athlete you are, you don’t get in the Academy because you can run fast and jump high. If you don’t have the academics and the character, you don’t go. But for women, I think they were definitely suppressed. And I don’t think only by white people. I think that there was a general belief at that time—we’re talking ‘50s, ‘60s, early ‘70s—where you were still back into grow up, get married, raise a family type of a thought process. We were fortunate that we got to see my mom initially start that way and then move into a working mom. But when I look at it, I think you’re correct in the fact that black women and/or other minority women were looked at as, outside the homeworkers, only in the service industry: housekeepers, cooks, maids, et cetera. So, yeah, I’d have to agree that there was limitations there. Franklin: So you mentioned your elementary school. Where did you go for middle and high school? Mitchell: Well, at the time, we had junior highs, which were seventh, eighth and ninth. We only had three-year high schools here in Richland. They have since moved to the middle school, four-year high school program. Franklin: Sorry, I went through middle school. Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, and I understand. As have my kids and now my grandchildren. But I went to Chief Jo. And at that time, it was really interesting, because, as I mentioned, as I was getting ready to leave elementary school at Lewis and Clark and go into junior high, my brother, my older brother, David, was already at Carmichael. So, my friends were all headed to Carmichael. Lewis and Clark is the geographic feeder to Carmichael, just because of proximity to the school. Logistics. Well, we moved up to this end of town, which put me into the Chief Jo Junior High district. My brother was allowed to continue at Carmichael because, as a ninth grader, which—that’s when your high school grades start counting. And they said if you can find a way to get there, he can stay there. So my parents said, yeah, we’re not going to change schools; this is his last year there. But for me entering, they said, ah, start fresh, et cetera. So I was a little bit disappointed; I was excited about wanting to go to the next level of education with my classmates. So we moved up here, and I ended up getting introduced to new friends. Some of which I had known from summer athletic endeavors and different things or just social interactions at the community pool or whatever. You get to meet other people. So I knew a few names here and there. But overall, I didn’t have this network of friends going to the same school. So that was a little bit interesting. When I got there, I was able to build new friendships, meet new people, and one of the things that was very distinct in Richland is that, because of the housing, the south end is where the laborers tended to be; whereas the farther you got—the closer you got to the Hanford Site, which means moving north, the more you would run into kids of managers, administrators, and decision-makers. So at Chief Jo, we had quite a few kids of folks that kind of made—the decision-makers of the Hanford Site. So I was exposed, now, to the people that were laborers, artisans, good folks with their hands, craftsmen—and very good craftsmen—to folks that were more in administration, science, decision-making, management, et cetera, and their children. So I got exposed to a little bit more of that type of an environment. As I look back on it now, it was very helpful. It gave me a broader picture, and expanded my knowledge and exposure to what goes on in a whole corporate business, et cetera. And then it also started to expose me to more opportunities and avenues and options as you get older and what you want might want to do and what you might want to become. Not that I felt limited when I was living in the other end; it’s just that this was so professionally expansive. I enjoyed it. So I felt that I kind of got lucky. I had a whole new group of friends. Franklin: Yeah. Did racism or segregation affect your education? Mitchell: My education? I don’t think so. I think that—my classroom education, I don’t think so. My social education, I think so, sometimes. Franklin: How so? Mitchell: Well, I just remember—and I remember being a senior at Richland High School, playing football, and I was playing both offense and defense. And in the first two weeks, I was performing very well. After the fact, I found out—the coach came to me and said, well, we’re just going to use you on defense. I said, oh, okay, all right. And it was right after an article had come out in the paper that says to stop Richland, all you gotta do is stop Mitchell. He’s the one that’s scoring all the points. So, anyway. The very next week, the coach says, we’re just going to use you on defense, and I said, okay. And the season went on, and we got through it, and at the end of the year, the person that they had started to highlight when I was moved just to defense ended up becoming an all-conference player. That leads to scholarship opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought it was very interesting that this player received all-conference honors and had twelve catches—pass/catches in the season, and I had 14 in the first three games. It was interesting as we got older, that young man, a good friend of mine, came up to me and said that it was his mother who had gone to the school and complained that, you’re throwing all the passes to that black kid. You’re not throwing any to my son. He came up to me and apologized. We were friends at the time, and we’ve been friends since. But he came to me after the fact as we were adults and said, do you remember that? I said, yeah. He said, well that was my mom. And he says, I have to apologize for that. And then I remember my younger brother, Nestor, playing baseball at Richland. He had the highest batting average in the entire conference. So summer baseball came around. He didn’t make the summer team after being the batting champion and being the trophy as being the batting champion for the entire conference. But he couldn’t make the summer team in the city. And then years later, one of the dads that was making the decision on who would be on the summer team, his son, he said, his dad came home that evening, and he was very upset. There were three coaches, and he was very upset, and his wife asked him, she said, why? What’s going on? He goes, all I can tell you is we made a horrible decision today. And I’m not proud of it. I’m not proud of myself. We made a horrible decision today. And come to find out later on, that their son came to me and said that when Dad came home and said that, it was about the fact that the other two coaches didn’t want your brother, Nestor, on the team. He said, he’s the best player in the conference! How—you know. He’s been evaluating these guys out of town, and he can’t make the team in town? And he said, they—two-to-one, he didn’t make the team. And this young man came up to me and said, Dad was just almost in tears about the injustice of that decision. And then that young man came up and said that my dad just felt horrible, felt absolutely horrible. And then the one that really—I don’t know—that really got me was, my mom occasionally, when we lived on the south end as youngsters, my mom occasionally—we would sometimes go up and meet my dad get off the Hanford buses and then walk with him home. Well, one day, my mom went to meet him. I don’t know if this is while we were too small to go, or whatever. But anyway, my mom was standing at the bus stop waiting for the bus to come and for Dad to get off the bus so they could walk home. There was this youngster that was probably nine or ten. Came running up to her and started screaming at her, “nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger!” And then took off. And my mom said, come here. And he came back, you know, he’s ten. And my mom looked at him, she said, young man, I’m not a nigger, and you go home and tell your mom and dad that. Because she knew that’s where it was coming from, and sent him home. Well, years later, I’m done, I’m working here locally, and I’m on the board of Columbia Industries and we’re doing some things, and we’re getting ready to dole some money out. There’s this one young man, a couple of years older than me that we were considering as a board to be the director of this one particular non-profit entity. It’s time to vote. And so they ask him to step out of the room and do whatever. Are we going to put him in charge of this particular non-profit? And we installed him and we funded him and the board, we approved it. As a board, we approved it. We were done with the meeting, we walked outside, and he comes running over to me. And he recounted that story. And he said, I was that young man. Come to find out, he and his family went to our church. I didn’t know him; he was three years ahead of me. I didn’t know him. But that was interesting, to see, not only hear about and experience the episodes, but to see the full-circle transition. Where people come in and recognize—and I don’t know if that’s something we did, to help educate, my parents did, or we did as a group or a family. Or if people did a little bit on their own, if the community was responsible for some of that. Whatever, but I thought that those were interesting starts and very interesting circular finishes. Franklin: So I want to move to talk about your work history and experiences at Hanford. Mitchell: Absolutely. Franklin: What sort of work did you do? Mitchell: Well, when I started, I mentioned to you earlier that I started—I got a job as a field clerk in the summer of 1972, working at J.A. Jones Construction Company. I was supporting a group of people that were involved in quality control of fabricated piping materials. Basically, what I did, I was a gofer, and I ran paperwork here and there, here and there, here and there. And then—that lasted for a little while, and then they moved me actually on the Hanford Site. I was supporting the quality control and inspection unit that was installing the evaporator building and they were supporting the building—at that time, the double-shelled waste tanks were under construction. These are million-gallon tanks and they had moved from the single-shell design to the double-shell design because they thought that they were more structurally durable and would result in, obviously, a safer holding tank. So I supported that group and learned a little bit more about what was going on out at Hanford. Went to school, came back, and then post-school, I went looking for work, and I got hired on as what they call an NPO, nuclear process operator. Basically what it is, is you are—in a normal construction field, you’d be considered a field laborer. You do basic labor work: haul this, pick up that, sweep up this, clean up that. I was assigned to the Tank Farms in the 200 East Area. I don’t know if you have any knowledge or have a chance to go out there, but it’s where the farms—it’s right in the heart of the farms, it’s right in the center, geographic center, of the Site. We were in support of the construction of those tanks as well as the day-to-day operations of the tanks that were already had, mixed waste, some that was just environmentally hazardous, some that was radioactive, and we would go out and take monitor readings on some of this. I worked as a shift worker in the summertime, which was interesting, being out there at night and having to go out in the desert, drive out in a truck and check gauges on these tanks to make sure that the pressure—checking pressure gauges or other things, and then having to make—switching. Because all the tanks are connected by piping, and they would move the material in the tanks by pumping them from one tank to the other. That’s why, to this day, a lot of times—because the records don’t exist—all that pumping that would go on, almost on a daily basis, they don’t know exactly what’s in what, because they didn’t keep the records. The records that were kept no longer exist. So now they have to go out and sample these tanks and chemically identify what’s in them. But initially, we were part of the people that were associated with, in support of, that movement of these wastes from tank to tank. Franklin: What on-the-job training did you receive? Mitchell: Well, at that time, you had certifications that you had to go through before you were allowed to be involved. What they would do, there was initial safety trainings that everybody went through that was on the Site. Then there were job-specific trainings. Most of them were safety-related and some of them were job-specific-related. The job-specific training, as you would pass you would get what they call certified at different levels. What it would do for you, it would allow you to be of more usage of them, you were more capable to do things and do it in a safe way. And over time, it would also allow you to make more money. So there was a way to progress, not only just due to time and tenure, seniority, but also due to certification and, you know, your value to the company and your ability to assist in more work. That was my initial introduction to Hanford. Yeah. And it took a different turn shortly thereafter. I wasn’t out in the facilities. Franklin: What happened? Mitchell: Well, what happened was, is that, shortly after I got out there and was working, we went on strike. This was in 1976. We went on strike, and there wasn’t any work, because the union was on strike. Shortly thereafter, I got an interview, based on my education, I got an interview from one the engineering firms to work in the project accounting office, because of my business background, educationally. When I walked back down, after the initial interview, I walked down to the personnel department, now known as human resources, and the personnel manager asked me, he said, well, we’re going to offer you a job. And I said, well, that’s great. He says, but I’m going to give you an option. I said, oh, really? He says, yeah. We’re not going to bid against ourselves as a company. It’s going to be the same pay for the accounting job, or you can come and be my assistant. I said, what? He said, I need an assistant here in the personnel department. It’s just me and my secretary. And he goes, we’re starting to grow and I need more help. He says, again, I’m not—it’s going to be the same pay. It was a whopping $235 a week. Same everything. You can either do the accounting side or you can come and work with me. And I said, I don’t know anything about personnel. He goes, your dad’s a personnel guy. I’m sure you’ve had enough exposure with table talk at the dinner table to know what’s going on. Again, this is pre-human resources degrees where you study all this stuff. It was simply people that knew the most about the company and how they got paid and all this stuff over time that they would stick in the personnel department; whereas now, it’s something that you actually go to school for. I said, well, yeah, maybe. I said, well, can I give you an answer in a day or so? He goes, oh sure. So I scurry home and I talk to my dad about it, and my dad summed it all up. He simply said, well, he said, educationally, you have a business background. If you go into the business side and down the road decide you want to go into the personnel side, I’d think it would be harder than if you start in the personnel side and then decide that you want to go on the business side, because your education’s on that side. He says, you know, it’s not that you couldn’t return to the business side. I think it would harder to do in reverse, if you go into the business side. Okay, okay, so I took my dad’s advice. So this gentleman, I called him, and I said, okay, I’ll take the personnel assistant job. [LAUGHTER] And he said, okay. Meet me at the Tri-Cities airport on Sunday—I think this was like a Thursday. He said, meet me in the Tri-Cities airport on Sunday, and bring enough professional attire for eight days. Okay. He says, yeah, we’re going on a recruiting trip. We need some designers—it was an engineering firm—we need some designers and some engineers. I said, okay. He said, we’re going on a four-day trip. We’re going to be two days in each city. Travel on front end, travel on the back. Okay. So we took off, and the first place we went was Adina, Minnesota, which is a suburb of St. Paul-Minneapolis. We stayed at this Ramada Inn. He looked at me and he said, okay, we’ve got a full slate tomorrow. We’ve landed, and tomorrow I’ll meet you and—the standard scenario was you would take a technical recruiter or interviewer and you would take a personnel person and tell them about money and relocation and benefits and all the people-side of the stuff, and he would talk about the job side of the stuff. Well, anyway, we had the chief of our engineering department and he says, we’ve got a full schedule tomorrow. We’ve got an interview every hour on the hour, all day. He says, we’re going to meet downstairs at 6:00; our first interview’s at 8:00. What you’re going to do is you’re going to be in the room with me, working on the people-side and telling them about relocation, listening to me talk about it. At noon, I’m going to watch you the second half of the day, and then on Tuesday we’re going to split the schedule. That was my training. I said, okay. So we go, I do the trip, and we come back. And the secretary says, don’t you think we ought to sign him up as an employee? Seeing as how he’s already been on the trip, and thank goodness he didn’t get hurt on a business trip before he signed up as an employee. So we kind of chuckled about that and whatever. That kind of launched my HR side of my exposure to Hanford. And then from there, I started doing new graduate recruiting on the technical side, science and engineering. So I spent nine years on the road a lot, going to different locations, interviewing people, new grads, to come out as first year, first time engineers or scientists that come to our company. And I spent a lot of that time with the Westinghouse Corporation at that time, and then moved on to different types of work within human resources to include benefits. I was the EEO officer for a while, which meant that I interacted with a lot of the federal compliance agencies that any company with over 50,000 employees have to deal with. Franklin: EEO is Equal Employment? Mitchell: Equal Employment Opportunity. We had the EEOC, which is Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is the federal side of it. We have OFCCP, which is the Office of Federal Contract Compliance, which oversees any company that has a government contract. So there was a lot of what they call oversight, whether it be state, federal, and different branches within the federal that the companies and the contractors have to, are responsible to report to, to send annual reports and different information, to interact with. And so I moved in that direction for a while. Later, towards the end of my career, I ended up being over in the employee and labor relations, labor being union, and employee relations being non-union, dealing with day-to-day issues in the workplace, which was very interesting. As it relates to the civil rights and all this other thing, it was interesting to go into that arena and that side of a corporate situation and watch the evolution of women, minorities, as it related to pay, promotion and including age discrimination type of things. There was no ADA at that time, Americans with Disabilities Act, to where now you see the ramps and all these other things. And having to be a part of getting companies to comply with that, and to watch the corporate culture push back against it—because it cost money. It may have been the right thing to do and some people would go ahead and do it. Whereas now you see upstart companies, newer companies, even companies that have been around a while but are still considered newer like Microsoft—that was just part of their business profile. Because they came after all these things were “normal,” standard. But to be on the end where this became—you know, the term glass ceiling, where women weren’t being promoted. I remember for the first time hearing glass ceiling. I remember for the first time meeting a Westinghouse corporate vice president, female. Black female, which was interesting. I remember meeting the Secretary of Energy, black female. That was different. So we were on the edge of this change, and seeing how it manifested itself in the workplace, and the grousing that would come about. Because you would find people that were upset about affirmative action. They only got the job because of the color of their skin. They only got the job because they’re female, et cetera, et cetera. You didn’t hear much grousing about, well, they only got the job because they were a veteran. You know, you didn’t hear that. But it was interesting to be on the frontline of that change and evolution and work through all of that, and personally be a part of it, being promoted to management as a black male, and then watch the opportunities for other people that traditionally were not white male under 40. That was interesting. That was a historical time, in that regard. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors, management? Mitchell: My relationship with them? Franklin: Yeah. Mitchell: My relationship was great. Are you asking me my relationship because of the color of my skin? Franklin: Yes. Mitchell: Okay. The relationship because of the color of my skin, I don’t think played a really big part. I think that one of the things that I am frankly proud of is the fact that I believe that my approach to people—and I believe I’ve seen evidence of this in multiple different types of workplaces, most recently even in the school district and across the street here at Hanford High School, where I spent some time working in the special needs program—is that I think that my training and my personality are such that people aren’t afraid to ask me questions that they’re really curious about, that I think generate communication and understanding. I don’t think people are afraid to come to me and ask me a question about being black, or what’s that like? Is it truly different for you? That kind of thing. I think it started when I was in elementary school. I remember a young man came up to me and asked me if my blood was black. I think I was in fourth grade. And I said, no, I said, do you want me to show you? So I cut my hand and I said, see? To me, I thought that was always important. I remember being at Chief Jo and the kids wanting to know. It wasn’t because they were prejudiced. That frustrates me to this day, is that we tend to walk on eggshells rather than to talk to each other. Is it different being black? Is it different being a girl? Is it different, you know, being Hispanic? Is it different now that you’re coming to the United States? What’s it like for you when you come in and you’re dressed in Islamic attire? What’s that like? We don’t talk to each other! I think that a lot of times, people are so afraid that they’re going to offend, that they’re going to move off of the political correct line and communicate with each other, that they tend to assume and proceed with ignorance, and come up with the wrong result. And I believe that, as it related to my work relationships, I think I’ve always created an atmosphere, at least around my own space and within my groups as a manager, that I wanted to foster that and nurture that. And I think I was successful in doing that, more often than not, whether it be social or professional. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Mitchell: Not a lot. I think one of the things that I learned in my brief military stint was that there was a reason the officers didn’t fraternize with enlisted men. I thought it was because they were just smug. But in its barest sense, that philosophy and that term and that cliché comes from the fact that if you learn to know them, respect them and love them, you’re not going to be able to send them over the hill and never come back. So from a military standpoint, it’s simply practical. If I know you and I know her, and I’ve got to pick between you two which one I’m going to send around the corner to Afghanistan, knowing that you’re going to have to stand there and fight and we may not get over there to get you. And I have this deep, in-depth relationship with you, it’s going to complicate my decision-making. I think that I tended to have a little bit of that in my non-work related deal. Not so much that I was a big wig making lots of decisions. It was just simply, one, I felt that my family’s privacy was important; I felt that my own personal privacy was important, and I respected the privacy of others. But not to the point where I wouldn’t interact with people or do any of those things. But I was mindful of that, and it’s purely out of respect. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Mitchell: I think that it played a role in me getting the equal employment opportunity, EEO officer/manager job. There was a real trend as this became—you need an in-house person. You would see almost 90% of my peers were black males. Franklin: Why do you think that was? Mitchell: Well, I think that it was a tangible evidence that a company had embraced the idea of in-house equal opportunity oversight. If you go in, and you see equal opportunity office, and you walk in and you see the manager is black—because it started out primarily as a “black” situation. It was an offshoot of affirmative action, which is primarily black male. Franklin: Sure, sure. Mitchell: So I think that’s as tangible evidence as you can get as a company that, we’re involved in this. Now, involved in it versus taking it seriously might be two different things. But I think that that gave me the opportunity and a platform to actually add some substance to it. Because once they put me in the position, don’t give me the job and the authority and that oversight within the company and not expect any results. Because once I got the authority to go in and oversee some of the decisions for promotion, for succession planning, for initial hiring and whatever, that’s where I could make some inroads. I don’t care if it was because I look good, because I was black sitting in the office. Shame’s on you. Now you’re giving me the hammer, I’m going to go use it. So, to me, I’d say, yeah, fine. They’d say, they just put you in there because you’re black. They’re just window-dressing. I said, they may be window dressing; I’m not. I’m going to find some qualified individuals, females, other minorities and whatever, that can come in and do this job. I saw it as an opportunity to expand my beliefs and improve our company. Because I thought that they gave me direct input to building the character of our labor force. Franklin: Yeah. A common way that some companies addressed equal opportunity was to hire African Americans, sometimes as maybe just window-dressing, for appearances sometimes substantially. I wonder, is there a connection between that kind of action and your story about the basketball tournament in Pasco, where you were represent—the coach thought you would be representative, or would have the unique ability to speak to another group? I’m just wondering, is there any kind of—is that a similar train of thought, or do you see a connection in those? Mitchell: Not necessarily, because I think what it was, was simply—you know, it was just our regular season game over at Pasco. And I think that the coach, really, was—it was a knee-jerk reaction to something that genuinely scared them. And I think the first reaction was, oh man, how do we get this hostile group of people, in this case black—how do we put a firehose on the fire? And, Greg’s black! I think the first thought was, they’re not going to want to hear from us; they’re already mad at us; we’re white. You know, they’re here banging on the door because they’re angry at white. Maybe they’re not going to be angry at him. Okay, boom, go help us. Like I said, nothing really resulted from it, but I don’t necessarily see a direct correlation. I think the only correlation would be that the coach’s reaction—because they were human—in that day and time, is not much different from what you would find in the corporate management group in that day and time. And so when they were charged with having to address that, I think that you would run into some of the same lack of information, ignorance, prejudice, some people that simply were just prejudiced, some people that were just mean, and some people that wanted to do the right thing and didn’t know how. You know? I think it was a compilation of all of that. But I think that that’s the only correlation I would make. I would think that were people on the school side as well as on the corporate side that were victims of the reality of the situation, times, thought processes, and societal norms. Franklin: Sure, sure, okay. Thank you. In what ways did security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your daily life? Mitchell: The secrecy part of it was interesting, because I remember, even prior to getting to Hanford, when my brother went to the Air Force Academy, at that time, he had worked at the Safeway down on Cullum Avenue and then right after that I followed him there, because, hey, we got a job, you know, and he’s getting ready to go and take off. So I got this job. Well, I was back in the back, working in produce. I think I was—I believe I was unloading a pallet of Cabana bananas. All of the sudden I see this guy come in and he’s got a tie on and he’s got a hat on. The tie didn’t bother me, but the hat made him a little suspicious in my opinion. And he comes up and he’s got this little flip notebook. Well, what it was is they were doing a background check on my brother. Because if you graduate from the Academy, he’s going to go—maybe he goes to NORAD, which he did do, which is where our nukes are at. So they’re doing security background checks on him. So that was my first exposure to anything secretive and whatever. I knew that my dad had a badge, but I didn’t know what it meant. So when I went to work out there, they said, okay, we’re going to get you what they call a temp badge. So I went to work out there as a college student in the summer, I got a temporary badge. And then you would hear people talking about, well, you need an L clearance. You need a Q clearance. I didn’t really know what those were. Well, as I moved into human resources and we start bringing people on, we have to determine what level of classified material they are going to be allowed to see. If it was low level, that was L. If it was Q, okay, that was a little bit higher. And the OPM, the Office of Personnel Management, for the federal government, does all the background checks for every agency. We happened to be contractors of the Department of Energy, but they do the same thing for the military, they do the same thing for everybody. And that was significant because once you—you’d have to do this horrendous amount of paperwork. Every place you’ve ever lived, every college apartment you’d ever had, the whole works. So it’d take a while to compile this information, and then you had to send it back and get in line. Well, you might be in line behind everybody else that OPM’s got to do a background check on. So, it could be months. Sometimes a Q clearance would take a year or even more, depending on what was going on. Boy, you were really disappointed if they found anything they had to go back and reinvestigate because it would just push you back in line. So from that standpoint, I didn’t have any problems. But I did get exposed to it, because I started out with this temp, I went to an L, the higher I got in management, I would go to a Q. And then I had a little bit of that on the Academy side where they were investigating you. But as far as the impact on my job, per se—what I thought was comical was, for example, if I had an L clearance [LAUGHTER] I could go in, and—let’s say both you and her have Q clearances and you’re looking at something and you need my help. And I walk in as an underling, and I’m reviewing something with you. You guys are okay, because you have the Q clearances. I’m not supposed to see it. But an element of it, you need my help on, because it’s my area of expertise. The government says, it’s okay as long as you guys are there. I couldn’t look at it by myself. But if you guys are there, as if you were going to keep me from reading it, remembering it, and selling it down the road, you know, type of thing. So I thought that was comical. But that was the only impact. It wasn’t really—it was more a nuisance than it was anything else. Franklin: Did your parents ever talk about their reaction or did they have a reaction to learning that Hanford had contributed to the development of atomic weapons in the nuclear weapon stockpile? Mitchell: Did they ever make any comments about it? Franklin: Yeah. Mitchell: No. Franklin: What about— Mitchell: Not directly. Not that I ever really heard. I think that they were—my parents tended to be—both my mom and my dad tended to be, when they communicated with us as their children, tended to push the pride in what we were doing and wanting to do a good individual job. Now as it related to the big picture, they didn’t comment much on the political/societal impacts of it being, oh, this is where elements of the nuclear bomb that was dropped on Japan took place. Franklin: How do you feel, or how did you feel at the time about working for a company on a larger scale for the development of nuclear weapons? Mitchell: I felt fine. Because my initial exposure, like I said when I left here and went to Naval Academy Prep School, I had looked at those things, I was looking at the potential career of being in the military. So for me, the idea of the possibility—because my big goal was flight. I might be carrying the bomb. Now, did I have a problem with that? No. Did I have a problem with the idea of the bomb being used on people? No. I had the idea of the bomb being used on the wrong people. To me, again, I felt that I may have some level of control. Not much; I guess you take orders and do what you’re supposed to do at the time, if that really were to have come about. But did I think, like people say, well, god, how would you feel about a bomb and being somebody to actually deliver that, or being somebody to actually help make that bomb? To me, I have two things that I think about. One, I want to hold the people accountable for making decisions to use it and how to use it, and I’m going to do the best job I can to make sure that the technology that I’m responsible for is being used responsibly. From there, I didn’t spend a lot of time thinking about the rest of it and the social impacts and oh my goodness and all that stuff, no. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Mitchell: The most important legacy? I think the most important legacy is the fact that it did contribute to--most people think about the war. I think about all the science things that have come out of the Hanford Site. I a lot of people don’t understand or recall that the first artificial heart was developed down the street. Dr. Christian Bernard put it in. It was developed at Battelle. The scanner bars, developed at Battelle. Just like NASA has come out with all the things that we have: freeze drying, irradiated foods. I think Tang was the first thing that we use everyday that came out of NASA. There was a lot of things that came out of Hanford that don’t get—they don’t get any airtime compared to, oh my goodness, the bomb. I think their legacy is the day-in and day-out things that they’ve used or that they’ve developed that we use everyday. Whether it be x-rays and how we use it, how we do carbon dating, not necessarily developed here but enhanced here. And I think there’s so many things that go on that people who lived right here don’t know about that folks out there don’t communicate exist that have, they’re way above and beyond the bomb. And I think that’s the most important legacy, is the day-in-and-day-out contributions to our quality of life, and the life or quality of people worldwide that have come out of Hanford, I think is its greatest legacy. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Mitchell: What do I know or learn? FranklIn: Yeah, what did you learn about it? Mitchell: I learned over time that it was a segregated, it was initiated as a segregated situation, just like the rest of 1940s America, that I think it has evolved into a much better-educated and socially responsible legacy than how it started. I think that’s good. I think it has tremendous amount of continued potential. I hope it’s used in that way. We’ll see. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities when you were coming of age? Mitchell: Well, I think the major issues were similar to the national issues. I don’t think Hanford was unique. But I think that Hanford was probably more specifically honed-in on employment opportunities. Because that’s what it was about, work opportunities. But as it related to the overall issue, no, we didn’t go downtown and get kicked out of a place. Franklin: What about housing opportunities? Mitchell: And housing opportunities? Franklin: Was that a struggle as well? Mitchell: I think that was a struggle. But the thing was is that I think housing opportunities were limited or directed similar to like they were in the 1940s anywhere else. And especially up on a military base, which this was based on a military base concept. In fact, we used to have a Camp Hanford. I have an aunt—I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to speak with her, my dad’s sister—but she met her husband here. She was living with us and met her husband at Camp Hanford. Camp Hanford is all of these streets that you see up here behind you between George Washington Way and the river, all these streets that were up here that now people build up on, where these condos are, where the E.L. Food Factory is and all that was part of Camp Hanford. This was part of Camp Hanford, where we are right now. Franklin: Yes. What actions were taken to address those issues of employment and housing? Mitchell: I don’t know, then. I just know what I was involved in, and I know there were federal laws that were involved, obviously the civil rights movement in 1964 had some impacts on that. In 1964, I was 11. So it took a while before, one, I was aware of it, two, I was knowledgeable enough to make a, develop a thought process about it and be involved in it and/or impact it. But I think because of that timing, I was able to be involved in the beginning of some of those things actually coming to fruition to where you did see some movement. Is it still necessary? Yes. Yes, it’s still necessary. I think that— Franklin: Is what still necessary? Mitchell: Assisting and overseeing that people are getting equal opportunities. Some people say that, you know, affirmative action type of things and that type of mentality was, okay, load the numbers for a federal report. That’s not what people wanted. That’s not what people have ever wanted. That I did know, whether I was young or not. It wasn’t that somebody, well, I didn’t want you to give me a job. I don’t want you to give me a job. I want to be able to earn a job. I want to be able to be evaluated for my performance. I don’t want you to give me anything. I just don’t want you to stop me from earning anything. And I think that that mentality still needs to be constantly educated, nurtured and supported. Whether it’s because of the color of your skin, your gender, your religion, whatever. I think that’s still important. I think it’s real simple. It’s very, very simple. Martin Luther King said, character not color. Don’t make it hard. Don’t overthink it, people. If the person’s character merits the opportunity, we’re done. The rest of it creates problems and extra energy that’s unnecessary. It’s not hard. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Mitchell: Directly involved? Franklin: Yeah. Mitchell: You mean like marching in the street? No. Franklin: Well, or— Mitchell: Do you think—I would say yes as being the manager of the EEO office for a Fortune 500 company and one of their subsidiaries and evaluating their hiring practices and who they selected, who they promoted, and how they paid people. Yeah, I was directly involved. Franklin: And which company was that again? Mitchell: Westinghouse. Franklin: Westinghouse, so here at the Hanford Site. Mitchell: Mm-hmm. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Mitchell: Well, I think that once you bring national attention, the one thing that happens that influences nationally, including what happened here at Hanford, is that you have the responsibility and the authority to implement. Doesn’t mean it’s done well, it’s done accurately, timely, or efficiently, but you do have the responsibility and the authority to implement. And I think that’s the influence that a national movement has. Franklin: Yeah. From your perspective and experience, what, if anything, was different about the civil rights efforts in this community? Mitchell: I think the civil rights efforts in this community, for me personally, I think that there were folks that were surprised that there was any need for it, particularly in my community as it related to me being in school. Being a predominantly white school, there’s a lot of folks, in this case kids, that didn’t see any racial episodes that imprinted them. Franklin: Because they were kept away from it. Mitchell: Well, I don’t know if they were kept away from it, or if they—it didn’t happen everyday. You didn’t see that many other minorities, so you didn’t see it on a daily basis. They may have heard something at school, but the race riots, those things, they didn’t happen down your street, they didn’t happen at your lunch counter, they didn’t happen at your movie theater, they didn’t happen at your drive-in. Not very much. Some of those things would happen, but usually you wouldn’t see it. We had a few things that occurred here. Franklin: Such as? Mitchell: Well, I remember that there was a shotgun discharged on Lee Boulevard at Zip’s that unnerved us a little bit. We don’t know if it was directed at my brother or not. There were a couple of episodes where you would have people get in fights and that type of thing. There would be situations in the school districts, at athletic competitions where you would see a predominantly black school, such as Davis out in Yakima or Pasco High out of Pasco, come into Kennewick or Richland or even Eisenhower-Davis, Yakima-to-Yakima, that you could say were based on the energy and concerns people had related to the civil rights movement and what they would see on television and the frustration that they felt that they needed to support, whether it was happening to them everyday or not. I think there were some influences there, where people said, oh, yeah, that’s right, we ought to do something here. What are you going to do? Have you done your homework? Are you educated? Do you know what you—a lot of people will stand up and jump around, and if you stop and say, what do you want the outcome of all this to be? I don’t know; we’re just mad. Well, that’s not good enough. What is it that you really want? What do you see? What do you want changed? When are you going to say that something is actually happening positively towards the goal that you understand and articulate? A lot of times, the back end is not part of it. It’s just a front-end reaction. Franklin: What were some of the issues here that existed for people to focus on, that weren’t just misdirected energy? But was there any civil rights issues here in the community that needed people’s attention? Mitchell: Well, here in Richland, not so much. I think in Pasco there were. I think if you recall at all the discussion that you had with Dad, even as a youngster growing up, I remember in Pasco, them fighting for simple things. Water and sewer on the east side. I remember walking over to visit my relatives, and we would go over and I had one great-uncle and we had a set of really, really good friends of ours. To get from one place to the other, there were these boards laid over this, basically an open cesspool. And we would have to walk across the boards to go over the cesspool and then get back on the sidewalk—on the street; there was no sidewalk—get on the street and then walk over to this guy’s house, and then walk on the boards to get back to my great-uncle’s house. They didn’t have sewer. So yeah, there were some civil rights issues that were just basic. Running water and sewer on the east side. But I would come back to Richland, and I could jump in the shower and turn it on and flush the toilet. So, did I live that on a daily basis? Not where I lived. Did I know that it was part of my overall community? Yes. Franklin: When did your work at Hanford come to an end and what did you do afterwards? Mitchell: Oh, Hanford, I took an early release in 2005. After that, I was focused on wanting to have a professional career as an umpire. I did that for a little while and found out that it’s harder than it looks. You don’t get paid a lot of money on the low end and you have no insurance. So from there, I decided I would continue to do high school and college basketball and baseball. Then I started working in the school districts as a paraeducator, which is basically a teacher’s assistant. I started out in the Kennewick School District and I worked in the special needs department, which is special education. And I had a couple of assignments in the classroom setting, I had a couple of follow-on assignments one-on-one, and I concluded that, in 2015, here at Hanford, across the street with a classroom assignment, special needs classroom assignment, and then I decided to formally retire, which means basically, apply for my social security, August 2015. Since then, I’ve continued to officiate high school and college basketball and baseball, and I’ve always enjoyed the river and been a fisherman and outdoors in that regard, and I’m going to be doing that as soon as I get paroled from you guys. Franklin: Sounds good. [LAUGHTER] Well, I just have two more questions. Mitchell: That’s fine. Franklin: And then I’ll let you get to the river, because it is a nice day out. Mitchell: It’s beautiful. Franklin: It’s going to be nice day outside today. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Mitchell: That it was a very unique place in regards to the amount of really exceptional minds that were here, and I hope continue to be here. At the time that the Cold War was going on—now, one of the things the Cold War did, and I hope someone describes the Cold War to them, what’s the difference between a hot war and a cold war—one of the things that our race with the Soviet Union did is that it constantly pushed innovation. I think there’s where some of the things that I mentioned before that really don’t get their horns tooted as much as, oh, this is the place that had to do with the bomb—that’s when a lot of that was just really going—great guns was the push for innovation and using your mind. I think we had some of the greatest minds ever and still do. We have a collection of some very brilliant people here at the Hanford Site. The other thing I want them to know that during that time, was we weren’t immune to any of the issues that the rest of the country was going through. I think if you look further, it wasn’t just the United States. But I think that we made some progress, that we continue to make more progress. And hopefully they’re grateful for the fact that where they are now is because of other people before, you know, recognizing, standing up, doing for and holding accountable themselves and others. And I hope they remember that. Franklin: Is there anything else that you would like to mention related to migration, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Mitchell: Well, the one thing that I always—I will say that kind of frustrated me—[COUGH] excuse me—in my professional career of being a recruiter, I was unsuccessful in getting some of these corporations—even though at one time Hanford was the biggest summer employer of college students in the United States at one time—I always felt that we had kind of missed a little bit by not tracking our own out-going high school students. By that I mean that we have the ability, especially nowadays, through our technology, to identify kids that are interested in math, science, engineering, and other aspects of the workforce that’s needed here and beyond. I don’t think that we do it very well. I think if we were to mine our own high schools for students that are either going to CBC for technical degrees and workability in two years, to folks that are going elsewhere and maintaining some kind of communication and tracking system that says that these 30 kids coming out of this school and these 27 out of this school, where are they? Because what I’ve found was, in my recruiting experience, we didn’t find that a lot of young people at the University of Washington in engineering and science would want to come to Hanford. They tended to be folks that wanted to work in lab coats and on computers and didn’t want to get dirty and didn’t want to leave—when I say dirty, be out and about with boots and a hardhat on, walking down a fence looking at something, standing under a tank, coming in here, brushing the dirt off of something. They wanted to be design engineering, design scientists. Well, it would take kind of a different personality that really wanted to come and live here, because of our geographics, our weather, et cetera. So we would end up replacing a high number of those young people. Once they were here, they got relocated here after school, got a job, they got happy, mom and dad were happy, yeah, they’re working. And they’d say, I’m a young person, don’t have a family established yet, they’d be here a year and next thing you know they’ve got to Phoenix to Motorola. Or they’re going to Amazon or they’re going to Microsoft or whatever. Which is fine. But you still have a need for some folks here, and the kids that grew up here, a lot of them want to go and do those things, too. But in the long run, they tend to come back, and we’d track that part of it, they tend to come back and raise their families here. So we were never successful, in my opinion, in kind of keeping a little bit in touch with those folks and mining our own built-in workforce. So that’s one thing that I wish that we had done better, that I had had more impact on. Franklin: Hmm. Well, Greg, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us. Mitchell: Not a problem. Franklin: Now, I’ll let you get back to the fishing. Mitchell: Yeah, I’m going to get on the river and have some fun. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview J.A. Jones Construction Tank Farms 200 East Area Westinghouse U.S. Department of Energy Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1972-2005 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Greg Mitchell Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Sports Migration Naval education Basketball Racism Football Nuclear industry Engineering Affirmative action Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Greg Mitchell was born in Pasco, Washington in 1953 and grew up in Richland, Washington. Greg worked on the Hanford Site from 1972-2005. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7593c31755a79b71059c279646ed8594.jpg 03c019fbacdc4391e94badcc0a5ff0e0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F784abae4e4f01481cfe773acebc5d420.mp4 4577812e4e530183ca71f7cacf37c638 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hank DeHaven Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hank DeHaven Description An account of the resource An interview with Hank DeHaven conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fef770d057cbd7fcd5e879acb0e88b207.jpg 4163a90a24db7d167a6eaea91a7561ee https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F607e136b0c77f3d9db0c55df91e50740.mp4 9f34d5ceebf274acb1217462d6100458 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Copeland, Harold. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:49:48 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 602 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) 3000 Area T Plant 184 steam power plants 1100 Building 100 Area 184 Building Dash-5 Building 221-T Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1947-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Windchimer, WW Hall, Lee Hill, Verne Lettingham, Jay Copeland, RW Galloway, Elijah Chein, Yao Madison, Web Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Northwest Public Television | Copeland_Harold </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Robert Bauman: Well, we can go ahead and get started with the interview. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Harold Copeland: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: So first I'm going to have you say your name and then spell it also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. I am Harold Copeland, Harold Curtis Copeland, H-A-R-O-L-D C-U-R-T-I-S C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: All right. And my name’s Robert Bauman and today is August 6, of 2013. And we're conducting oral history interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And so we're going to be talking about your experiences working in the Hanford site. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me first, how you came to Hanford, when you got here, any first impressions of the place, any of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: My wife and I came here from Denver, Colorado in October 1947. I was working for the Bureau of Reclamation. They were decentralizing their main office, sending people to all the field offices. General Electric came in recruiting and they had received word of this decentralization, looking for engineers. So there were a number of us that thought that's a good opportunity, so we came out here, 1947. We're driving our little three-window Ford Coupe and towing my Harley motorcycle on back. And the first impression of Richland was pretty grim. We came into town and all we saw were these flat-topped, prefab houses. They didn't have their peak roofs yet. And there was dust in the road and not hardly any trees. But we came here. General Electric said there's a job for five years. Well, for the first four or five years, we kept thinking, when do we go back to Colorado? I grew up in Colorado. See, it's a neat place in Fort Collins and I graduated from CSU there, so naturally, it was like home. But after five years, we began to like this place. We had the Columbia River, the Yakima River, had the Blue Mountains, the Cascades, and the ocean, and fishing in the ocean not too far away. So we made it our home for all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And when you and your wife first came, what sort of housing did you live in first? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: They were building houses rapidly. The A and B houses, a lot of those were up and people living in them and prefabs, as I mentioned. Our first few months, we were living with Lee Hall and his son, 700 Sanford, in a two-bedroom prefab. And a wife and I got the small bedroom. She was pregnant when we got here. December 7, the Pearl Harbor Day, but in 1947, our first daughter was born and there was pretty cramped conditions with the baby beside the bed and then a two-bedroom prefab, well, the crying at night. She had not gotten used to sleeping at night. But Lee Hall said he had one bad ear. He says, put her out in the living room and let her cry out there. I'll just turn my good ear down and I won't hear her. So we did and the crying session and nothing happened from it. Finally got the message to Diane that she was supposed to sleep at night, so that was nice. And Lee Hall was so glad to have a woman in the house to do cooking and do furniture. She did curtains and changing paint and putting a woman's touch on the house like women can do that men don't have any idea about. Well, she did that and he was very pleased to have us with us, but they were building the pre-cut houses. And we get in along about in the '48, it was probably in March or April, the pre-cut houses were ready to be occupied. We moved to a two-bedroom pre-cut. Lee Hall was most depressed and dejected because we were leaving and taking all his good drapes away. So we lived at 700 Sanford for several years until about, I think it was 1973, our second child was born. So on the housing list, we were eligible for a bigger house, a three bedroom. We were in a two bedroom. It so happened I was working with the engineer, Verne Hill was his name. And he lived out on Atkins. And he said, they had a housing list. Big board behind the glass, a housing list was posted. You'd go down and apply for housing that became available. Verne told me his next door neighbor was moving, so I applied for that house before it was posted, see? So I was first on the list of eligibility for the house and we got the house at 209 Atkins because of Verne. And it—they were well-built houses, number one grade lumber, and it's been a very durable and good place to live over the years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Where was this housing list that you mentioned? Where was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: They had sort of a housing department located in the vicinity, very close to where the Richland Police Department is, across the street from the Federal Building would be. But they would post this housing list and people that were eligible to move would go in and apply. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And how would you describe the town of Richland at the time in the late '40s and early '50s? What kind of place was it to live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Very safe place. Good schools. Good housing. No crime. Everybody that worked at Hanford had had their background checks. They wouldn't hire any criminals or background violators. So we could leave our cars unlocked, we could leave our doors unlocked, and it was a very safe place. The main thing was security for the plant. The plant operation security was very, very strict then, but living conditions were very good. They had 700—420 Wright Street. We rented the house. $38 a month. It's a two-bedroom pre-cut called a U house. And the electricity was furnished, the water, the sewer. They even give you grass seed to plant your lawn, and if you had some maintenance to be done in the house, call them up and they'd come and fix it. The wind blew a lot. There were no ranch houses at that time. And the wind came—they started building the ranch houses. The soil was all very fluffy and stirred up and we would get one of those terminator winds as they were called, the way they would blow dirt into our yard. And there was a terminator wind and there was probably three to four inches of sand blew into our front yard. The way they took care of it was the fire department came out with their tanker trucks and hoses and hosed this off of our lawns. They also learned, they gave you the plant seed, but they only gave you enough seed for just about one quarter of your lawn at a time. When you get it going, then they give you seed for the next section. Trying to water it and keep it growing, the whole thing they learned, was too much for the residents. So it was a very safe, good place to live. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Do you remember any community events, any special events sort of things in the community during that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Community events, the one that comes to mind, there were probably some but I can't think of was the boat races. And it was called the Atomic Cup, which nowadays is not politically correct. They call it the Columbia River, then it was the Atomic Cup for several years. And it used to be a nice place to go and watch the boats, but recent years, they're so crowded and unruly people that I don't have any reason to go down there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Let's talk about your work in Hanford then. What was the first job that you had when you first came to Hanford in 1947? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, my degree is in mechanical engineering and that's what I was doing in Denver with the Bureau of Reclamation. They came out here and I had an engineering job in the--I think they call it the 1100 Building. It was a single story Army barracks type of building. It was in the location of, I would say where the parking lot is now on the lower side of the Federal Building. That was its location. And so I worked there until I got my Q clearance and then I was sent to 200 Area after I got the clearance. After I got to the 200 Area, they were in search of instrument engineers. No college courses taught instrumentation. The one up in Yakima was teaching good technicians and the one up at Milwaukee had good technicians, but no engineering. Well, I'd been in the Navy and my training in the Navy was with electronics gear: radio, transmitter, receiver, sonar, LORAN, and there might have been something else. So I had a lot of this electronic training and I had one semester of electrical engineering at Colorado State. So I transferred over to instrument engineering and shortly after I got to the 200 Area and followed that through all my time there as an instrument engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: So what sorts of duties did you have then? What sorts of things might you do on a typical work day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, I would work with the instrument technicians, help them with their work. If they needed new parts, I would go write purchase orders. If some of the instruments were getting old and wearing out and needed total replacement, I would write orders for those and oversee the installation and help the craftsmen, the instrument techs with calibration. There's one funny story that I just can't forget. Most of my work, some, not all, but most of my works in the 184 steam power plants, which provided the steam for emergency use during outages. And this took place at the N Reactor, at the 184. And he was an instrument specialist. And he was the--what do you call them? The steward. He was the instrument steward for their craft, Jay Lettingham. And we'd gotten all these new Foxborough DP cells in that we were installing to replace some other instruments that were obsolete. There's a much, much better system and we were in this little instrument shop in the 184 Building and I was reading the manual and he was trying to turn the screws and nuts to get it calibrated. And he tried and it didn't work and he tried and it didn't work. And then what he did, well, he said, here, you take these tools. And so I did it and showed him how to do it. He being a steward, see, I wasn't supposed to pick up a tool or touch one, but he had me do it. [LAUGHTER] I thought that was a real amusing situation, but we got along. We worked as a team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And how long did you work at the N Reactor then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, N reactor from about 19--probably '66 to '87. I retired in 1987. But my first work was assigned in the 200 Areas. And I was fortunate. One day, I got in on the startup of the 234-5, which they now call the Plutonium Finishing Plant, but in those days you're probably aware that they named the plants and the facilities in a name that did not relate at all to what they did. See? Plutonium Finishing Plant would have been giving away a secret, so it was 234-5. Everybody referred to it as the Dash-5 Building. I was there on the construction and startup of 234-5, mainly working on heating and ventilation. Had three big air supply filters and washers and fans for the building and it was a real tough ventilation because there were three separate pressure zones. The office zones were the higher pressure and then there was an intermediate zone. And the zone where the hoods and the work was done was the lowest pressure so that all contamination wouldn't flow from the work area to the shops and clean areas. And it was very difficult to get those pressures to be stable and maintained. I got in on the construction and startup of REDOX plant. And then I also got in on the construction and startup of PUREX. Now, part of the PUREX work, I had an office under Webster in the 3000 Area, North Richland, where we were working on design work and approving drawings and specifying the type of instruments to be procured. Then I got to go out to the field and saw them being installed. And I worked for Copeland, R. W. Copeland. That was a coincidence. No relation that I know of, but he was a good guy to work for. He was, I think, Blaw-Knox Construction, if I remember right, that he was in charge of all the construction there. So I got well acquainted with a lot of welders and pipe fitters and electricians, and everybody worked together. It was a very cooperative effort in those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Your first job was with GE, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: General Electric, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And then what other contractors did you work with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, it was, I think about 1964. GE's contract was running out. They chose not to want to extend it and so United Nuclear came in and took over the contract for the 100 Areas and I think Westinghouse had a contract. There were several contractors for the 200 Area, so Uniroyal and couple others. I don't remember the name, but anyway, United Nuclear took over the 100 Area, so I worked for them and retired for them. And the plant was down in 19--I got my neat belt buckle. 20 years, 1964 to 1984. So the plant went down in 1984, but I retired in 1987. The neat thing I remember doing there, our maintenance work could only be done when the reactor was down. The reactor running was producing plutonium and steam for the steam plant. That was a money earner, so the downtime was kept at a minimum. When it went down for good and we thought that it was always going to restart, we went in and replaced a lot of tubing and instruments, valves with upgraded material, upgraded design. And we thought—I believe that that plant was in better condition, had better equipment than when it first started up and we always had that hope that—we didn't have any doubt at that time--that it was going to start up again and that all this good stuff in it was really going to run good. But then because of the Chernobyl incident, the politicians shut it down. It didn't make a scientific and engineering gradual shut down, which would have saved a lot of money in handling nuclear fuel and processing it. But they shut her down because of Chernobyl. And I'm not a real good nuclear physicist, but they think it's a two factor or an n factor. You'd have to talk to a nuclear person. But it was designed in this N Reactor so that it would not run away and meld itself like the Chernobyl plant did. It was impossible, but the politicians didn't know that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Obviously, security, secrecy were a big part of the Hanford site. Can you talk at all about how that part of it impacted your work at all in any way or any interesting stories about security? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah. Some of the security men would hang out in restaurants or bars. I never experienced this or saw it happen, but I've heard about it. And if the customers in there talked anything between themselves or anyone else about anything, the work they were doing or what was going on out there, they were out the door. And most people knew that and obeyed it very, very strictly. For a long time, my wife and my daughter, see, they didn't know what I did out there. I couldn't tell them. I'd go to work in the morning and come back in the evening and ride the bus. So it was that tight. And another funny story, the kids in school were talking about what does your daddy do out there? Of course, they didn't know. And they'd say, my daddy is making toilet paper. He brings it home and his lunchbox. [LAUGHTER] It was one of the answers that the kid that didn't know what's going on was doing because, I guess toilet paper at the times was not readily available, but there was still always lots of it out at the plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: JFK, President Kennedy came to visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: What's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: President Kennedy came in 1963-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: --to dedicate the N Reactor [INAUDIBLE] came. What are your memories of that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: He dedicated the reactor. Well, I was working that day and didn't see it, but my wife and daughter went out and got to watch Kennedy designate. He moved the radioactive wand over the receiver and the motorized shovel, big, earth-moving shovel, scooped the first scoop of dirt out there, so the way I heard about it, he started it up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Okay. Were there any events that sort of stand out in mind from the years working? Any unusual happenings or strange occurrences, sort of, when you were working out at Hanford at that time, or funny stories? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah, I think of one that was very amusing. The instrument techs who I worked with, all of them were a bunch of good guys. They would play jokes. They had subtle humor and played jokes on people, harmless type of things, nothing to harm. This occurred in the 221-T, the separations building in the 200 Area, 200 West. And I'd often go over there early in the day, see the instrument foreman, what he was going to assign to the technicians and what was going on, what was to be done that day so that if it involved something that I needed to know, I would be there to hear about it. And one time, we had these ring balance instruments, we called them pen draggers. They had little pens. They would make a mark on a round chart, a moving chart and they were a very small pen with ink in them and made a very small line. And we were having this, I guess, a safety meeting was finished and we were talking to this--they had a secretary. The instrument foreman had a secretary. I think she was Eleanor, but I'm not sure. Well, one of the guys rigged up one of these ink pens, held it about waist height and he had a squeeze bulb with water in it and he squeezed it right at Eleanor. So she became all wet on her front side there and everyone was smiling and giggling and she didn't know what was going on until she looked. [LAUGHTER] You couldn't see the stream it was so fine, see? It was a fine stream. I thought that was funny! Another one in the same building, at quitting time, the guys that have their lunch buckets set on the workbench and when the bell rang, it was time to go rush out and get on the bus and go home. So this one guy, he was especially quick at grabbing his bucket and getting out so he could get a seat on the bus that he wanted. Well, we had a lot of lead bricks. They're the same size as red bricks that we have. This was a lead brick. They put it in his lunch bucket and he came along and grabbed this lunch bucket and all he got was the handle on the top part. [LAUGHTER] That was a funny one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I wonder what you see as were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford were and what were some of the most rewarding parts about working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Challenging and rewarding. Well, the challenging, and to a certain respect of keeping the secrecy of the plant, one of the challenging things was the dust storms called the terminators. And the rewarding thing, I think, was the men that I got to work with. They were all good guys, cooperative, pulling together. There was no territorial protection. If somebody knew something that the other guy didn't know, he would share it. That was very rewarding to me. There were different technical problems that I was faced with during the time, which we were able to take care of and never had any bad accidents. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And you were there for 40 years-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I imagine you must have seen some changes take place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Many. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Either technological changes, or instruments. I wonder if there were any changes that you saw that you thought were important? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah, there were a lot of changes. The older instruments in the power houses were--can't remember them. But they ran on a five to 25 psi signal. Then we got these newer Foxborough instruments and then they were three to 15 psi. And before I left, they were going to forward a 20 milliamp electrical instruments and controls. And the computer age was just getting started when I retired. And they would allow computer measurements—I was in the 100 Areas by then, of course—instruments, they would measure pressure temperature and position, could be done with computers, but the control the people had, the men, the operators had to maintain control. They allowed no computer control of the reactor. That was a limit at that time, but that's gotten past that, present day. But we had computer programs on the old IBM cards, punch cards, that punched the little square holes, and there was a giant computer in the basement of the Federal Building. There was a Boeing computer facility and all the cards went down there to be processed and problems and answers, solutions work out from that. That was just the beginning of that age that I just got in on the start of it, but not anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: The site, of course, at some point, shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. I wonder if that shift impacted your work at all, the sorts of things you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah. Well, to back up a little bit more, at one time, we had nine reactors up and down the river operating. And N Reactor was a first one in the country and maybe in the world that produced power. It was one of the first power reactors, of which there are quite a few of them now. So that was a neat thing, but--give me your question again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Oh, I was asking about the shift from production to cleanup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: To cleanup. I got in on a little of that before I started working at N reactor, the other BDF and DNDR were all being shut down and I worked for Wind Chimer, WW Wind Chimer. We were on--I was probably for about a year--helping with some of the cleanup on that and our motto, our mission was, drain and dry the piping and store the mercury. That was our mission that we were doing. The other groups were doing other things, but I know that we were tending to that for the shutdown. And at that time, it was shut down, not that we were not involved in the cleanup yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: But the shutting down of some of the reactors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I wonder if you could—so in a sense, overall your experience working at Hanford for those 40 years-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: What about the overall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Yeah, what's your overall assessment of your 40 years working at Hanford? What are your thoughts about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Oh, very proud. Very positive. I'm proud that I was able to work out there and support the Cold War effort. My first job out of college was with Fairbanks Morse, Beloit, Wisconsin where they made the diesel engines for the submarines, the OP, opposed piston engine. So I got to help with the war effort. Then I got the letter from my draft board that said, greetings, you are a selected volunteer, so that's when I got into the Navy. So I got into the Navy parts and then, as I told you I didn't have to get shot at, but I was working during the war time, then out here for the Cold War. So I had those three parts of my life, I think, contributing to the growth and the safety of our nation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I want to ask you about your running. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: At some point, you got involved in running. When was that, and how did that get started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Elijah Galloway. Dear, dear friend who’s gone now. He was the Brown Shoe Air Force, that's the Army Air Corps. Before the Air Force—the present day Air Force was formed, the Air Corps was a part of the Army. He said I was part of the Brown Shoe Air Corps. So he flew missions and did things, but one of the jobs where he got started running was CIA, Russia. Both he and his wife got trained. They had probably most of a year of training in Russian and how to conduct themselves as observers, but really getting spy information, but they were just called observers over in Russia. And then he participated in all the Russian parties. They had lots of caviar and vodka and pretty soon he was overweight. And his doctor, when he went to Germany for a checkup or leave, he said, you need to lose weight. So he encouraged him to start a running program, which he did. And he lost weight and he lost weight and whenever he would go out on one of these surveillance programs, he'd just go out walking, then he got to running. He'd count the number of insulators on the power pool, just simple stuff that he could observe while he was out, then there was always a Russian counterpart that was with him and following him. He was a runner. And pretty soon, Elijah got so good he could run out and leave this guy. [LAUGHTER] And so one time, the story he told me, he went out for his run with his counterpart, Russian guy, and he finished his run and then he told the Russian guy, well, let's go out and run your course. Now, I want to run your course. He was too tired to do it. [LAUGHTER] He was a specialist on antennas, jamming and communication, that was his specialty in his work. He had an electrical engineering degree and antennas was his thing. And so he was involved in a lot of that communication and jamming for the US over there. The one amusing thing that was taught to his wife. The Russians would have a big parade. They would have these big wheel movers with the missiles on them and they'd have a big parade celebrating how great we are. And Elijah and his wife, Beryl, would have their trench coats on and have their Leica cameras down at waist high, just barely pointing out between the buttons. And they would take pictures and just the time they'd click, they'd go, [COUGH]. And there were always Russians around spying on them. If they heard a camera click, well, then bad news for them. But they could cover this up with [COUGH]. Just cover it up the click of the camera. That was one of the neat stories that he told me. But from his experience with losing weight, he retired and his home was in San Antonio, Texas. And he couldn't stand being retired. And he'd gone to school with Paul Venter, a name that I mentioned. I think it was probably at Whitworth. I'm not positive, but he knew Paul and he kept in touch over the years and Elijah didn't like being retired and he had this electrical degree and Paul says, why don't you come up to Hanford? There's some jobs here. Elijah came up here, got a job. He was my office partner and I think I already told you part of it, that he and Jerry and I, in my office one day, Elijah said, let's go out on our noon break and go for a little run. Because it had meant so much to him and he felt so much better getting down to a trim weight that he wanted to influence other people to enjoy that same feeling and the euphoria—the endorphins get into your body when you're running to where you just feel like you're just going and can go forever. Of course, you can't, but you have that wonderful, elevated feeling. He wanted to share that with everybody and I wanted to share it with other people too that I have run across in my running years. So that was Elijah. It was about 1972 that this happened and I started running and within a year later, I ran my first marathon. He coached me on how to train for a marathon. It feels good, but don't keep going further than, you know, increasing not more than 10% or a few miles each day. Hold a very strict schedule of gradual training and conditioning. Because if you do try and get too much, you get injured, disappointed, then you quit running. That has happened, so one thing that he taught me and another people. And so we ran the old Cheney Marathon up at Cheney, Washington. And that Cheney Marathon only lasted, I think, about three years and they discontinued it. But the neat thing, I still hold the first place for 50 age division at the Cheney Marathon. No one came along later and beat my record because the marathon was stopped. [LAUGHTER] A lot of other marathons, why, someone else comes along when they turn 60 and they beat my record. That's how I got started running and I'm a advocate of—if not running, I swim or bike or kayak, whatever suits your fancy, whatever you feel good doing, do it, but keep doing something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Sounds like you were running pretty regularly at your last time period working at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Pretty regular. My routine for many years was up at 4:30. Do my toileting, strap on my shorts and shoes, out the door at 5:00. I'd run 7 miles in an hour and I was back to the house and Evelyn would have breakfast. I'd quick shower and get breakfast and then I'd catch the bus at 6:30, about a two-block walk from my house, catching the bus. That was my routine, seven miles every weekday morning and then six miles at noon with the guys at N Reactor. So I got 13 miles a day, weekdays. Saturday was the long run day. Do 20 or 22 miles. You have to have some long distance training to train your body to learn to burn fat when you run out of glycogen. And the person I did that most with was my dear Chinese running friend, Yao Ming Chein. “Chee-in.” We would meet Saturday and run our 20 to 22 miles. Sunday was a rest day, so I'd ride my bike about 15 miles. That's a different exercise. It rested your running muscles. But Chein, I remember, he would, at one of our wedding anniversary parties, Yao Ming and is wife were there and I was introducing him and he says, Chein, E before I. He says I before E and everything except Chein, C-H-E-I-N. It wasn't C-H-I-N as Chin, but he was Chein. That made a difference to him. So he's still around. He lives over in Bellevue. I talk to him every once in a while. We formed a—a lot of marathoners, you form a bonding, a marathon bonding with these people that you run 26 miles with and you look for them and wonder how they are and if they're not at the next marathon, you wonder if they're ill or accident or anything happened. It's a bond that, it's hard to describe, but it's there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Is there any things that I haven't asked you about in terms of your working at Hanford that you think is important to talk about and would like to talk about that you haven't talked about so far? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: There's one more funny that I didn't include. We were working at the PUREX plant, 200 East. And this instrument specialist, Web Madison was his name, he--to back up a bit, they needed instrument technicians that could find work and work on instruments. So they were looking for watchmakers, all search the country. Watchmakers would qualify. They knew how to do fine, delicate work. Well, there were a lot of watchmakers out there because there was no training for them early on except, later they had the Yakima, forget the name of it, instrument school and the one in Milwaukee. But Web had tooth problem, teeth all decayed. So he had upper and lower plates, all new plates. Had them built by the dentist, you know, nice. And then the one thing that I'm leading up to, if an instrument needed a part and you couldn't buy it, they could make it and they could build parts that were broken and replace them, they were so good. So Web got his new teeth and he looked at them real close. He built himself a set of stainless steel teeth, a whole set of stainless steel teeth. And one night when he come off shift and through the badge house, the guard always looked at you and looked at your badge and he'd know who you are and he knew who he was. They checked him out. But he flashed those stainless steel teeth at the guard and the guard just about fell over. It was a riot. [LAUGHTER] Another thing they did, they were practical jokers. Another thing they did there to the going off shift, I didn't observe this, but I heard about it. An instrument tech, they were getting ready to go off shift and they called up at the badge house and said, we're going to flush the phone lines. And we want you to unhook your phone, take your phone off and just hold it while we flush the lines. And so he did that and they took some air nozzle and made some noises. It sounded like flushing noises. And then he went up to check out to catch the bus and they really ribbed that guard. What in the world are you doing on the phone. Oh, they had him put it in the basket. They had him put it in the wastebasket. What are you doing in the wastebasket? Practical jokes like that. There are so many of them that—so, good to think about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: It was my pleasure. I am hopeful and I'm sure that what you're doing will be very educational and important to your students over the coming years. So I want to thank you for doing this work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Well, I'm glad to be a part of it. Thanks again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Mm-hm. </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Copeland Description An account of the resource Harold Copeland was an instrument engineer on the Hanford Site from 1947-1987. An interview with Harold Copeland conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear instruments & methods Nuclear weapons--History. Nuclear weapons industry Nuclear weapons industry--United States--Employees. Nuclear weapons plants Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created - DMO 2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created -[J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/6/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 1100 Building 184 Building 184 steam power plants 200 Area 221-T 3000 Area Cheney (Wash.) Chernobyl Nuclear Accident Dash-5 Building General Electric Hanford Site (Wash.) N Reactor Nuclear waste disposal Plutonium Finishing Plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) Running Secrecy T Plant United Nuclear Corporation United States. Bureau of Reclamation https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb6ff5a963a5145a17740f4cfcfa037f0.MP3 941610da76725375c756675855c7ff4f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harry Zwiefel Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound START Okay, well my name is Harry Zweifel and I was a shift at B area during the startup, I was a uh, shift supervisor on what they called patrol. We wandered around the building and saw that everything was as it should be, no radiation, undue radiation and so on. What was your experience before Hanford? Well my experience before Hanford started out in uh, with DuPont in explosives, uh, TNT back at Kankakee and then I ran a training school in Wisconsin up at uh, Barksdale for TNT operators. And during the period of a 1940, latter part of ‘41 and ‘42 uh, I was in, as I say, in operations and in training school and uh, we followed the construction of the TNT lines and then the startups thereof and I was sort of a monohouse what they call a monohouse specialist. And then following the, as soon as all twelve were operating why uh, I became in charge of a shift in uh, TNT and uh, then was on days as the senior supervisor, actually an apprentice senior supervisor, I guess, and uh, one day early in uh 1944 I received a call from the head office TNT and the superintendent told me that uh effective, it was Friday, effective that Monday I was transferred on loan from DuPont to the University of Chicago. And I said “Well what am I going to do?” and he says “I don’t know, nobody told me, they’ll tell you when you get up there.” On Monday morning, uh, I think it was early February by that time that I went up and I was told by a fella named Dr. Kircher Q. Bellis that uh, that they’re going to split the atom, they’re going to make an atom bomb. And my job was going to be helpin em develop the uh, semaworks(?) under west stands doing the separations, developing the process for separating plutonium from the metals and I stayed there until I came out here and that was uh, I think that really was, things are starting to blur now but it was the end of a 1944. And we uh, I was following construction of the B reactor, my particular responsibility was what they call Bellfield valves. You remember those George? They were uh, they were the valves that permitted us to quickly drop the, so called, poison solution into the vertical safety rods in case of a uh, of a an event where the reactor was gonna run away and you couldn’t get the VSR’S in and then this liquid went in all the thimbles. I spent about 3 months up there workin on the Bellfield valves and droppin the materials and timing it and so on. And then once construction was done why I went in to uh, as I say, the patrol unit. What was your experience in Chicago? Well in Chicago, when I went up there, we went in to the uh, under the west stands the (unclear) works and it was quite an experience. We had the, we had the squash court right next to Dr. Fermi’s reactor, his first reactor was... and they were just finishing their experiments and decided that yeah they could uh, keep the uh, reaction going and uh, we were building then the (unclear) works and we built it all ourselves because they wouldn’t let any laboring people in based on the security. You were building the? The tanks, we, all the tanks and the piping for the, run running the solutions. We had our own little dissolver and then we’d jet over into these tanks. We had plastic lines and oh we had quite a time. We learned how to melt lead bricks, built our own shielding and so on. We did it all ourselves. Later on why we even got into a what later became the redux operation, we were doin uh, extraction with the liquids (unclear). We built that ourselves. And I became a, towards the end, I became the uh, supervisor in charge of the actual operation there. What did Fermi do in Chicago and you in relation to that? Well ok. Fermi was strictly on the reactor side. And he was uh, he was the man that was doing all the studies on the graphite, how they moderate it, how the neutrons acted and so on. And at that time they were still trying to prove that they could sustain the uh, nuclear reaction. And uh, that was uh, I think that was the time it may have been in B reactor startup but I don’t think so. Something about the Italian navigator has landed and so on; which was the signal that uh, the reactor could be made self-sustaining. And that was, that was a key right there, if it, if it hadn’t that would have been it. What was the nature of the fuel in Chicago and how handled? Uh George, I don’t, the fuel, I don’t really know exactly, as I say, I was, you know, they, I was on the chemical side. But uh, they had a radioactive solution, rather potent, I think, a source that they were using. And beyond that, I really don’t know how their, how their reaction... It may not have been slugs at all? Oh no, no I don’t think it was, no. Uh, I’m not, well they could have uh gotten Clinton slugs, they had some, you know, from their reactor down there. And later on we started up our summer works that’s what we were running is the Clinton slugs, they were sending those up. But, it if I can digress a little bit, Fermi was such a wonderful character, I just, (?). Uh, when we first, when I first got up there, he, they held an orientation for, oh maybe, 20 people. And uh, Ave Compton was there, Regner was there, Phil Morrison was there talkin physics and uh, they would each get up and they said what they had - these people there doin this and these people there doin that. There’s several sites, you see. Uh, Fermi, they all stood at the rostrum and uh, rather formal. Uh, Fermi got up there and he, first thing he sat on the edge of a table lookin at...and he always had a little stub of a pencil. No, maybe two, three inches long, that’s all, he played with that and so he stuck it in his ear and so on. So he was telling us what he did. He said: “Well I have these people at site B, they do this and I have these people over there, that do this.” He said: “Well I’ve got people all over, I don’t know what they’re doin.” He was kind of a breath of fresh air. He could meet em in the halls and of course there’s long halls in front of the squash courts and you could stop him, ask him a question, he’d stop and answer. So would Morrison. But some of the rest of em were more standoffish and too busy to mess around with a guy like me. But uh, Fermi was there and I really had nothing to do with him except meeting him in the halls and hearing him in a lecture and so on. He did have a certain charisma. Oh, he, he was, he was. He was just a comfortable old shoe. (Chatter) What was the importance of DuPont in this? Absolutely. The function of the DuPont Company I don’t think they ever received all the recognition that they should have. When, when you consider the design and the construction of these facilities and how successful they were, right from the beginning, it it’s astounding. I just think it’s beyond belief that they could do it and as far as I’m concerned DuPont was were the star of the whole outfit. And they sent good people out here; they had, boy, they had good people, top notch. Such that... (Chatter). Well DuPont, DuPont would, I think that they never received the applause that they should have for the job they did. With the, nobody’d ever had a reactor other than the few blocks of graphite laid up and uh, in B squash court, uh, and we built the thing, designed and built it and it was successful almost right from the beginning as far as the reactor goes. There was a mistake made in how many, how much uranium you needed to keep the reactor goin so that you weren’t poisoned out by the iodine, but uh, it was an astounding thing. Uh, as I said, they had excellent management and they sent their best out here. They had some real good people and they were so much different than some that we had from then on, it seems to me. Why do you think DuPont chose to leave when they did? I think that DuPont at that time were kind of fed up with the way things were being run here. Uh, later on I think they were, you know, they were brought back in to Savannah and I think they hated that. And I really believe that this work and the Savannah work really set them behind as a chemical company, if you look at em now they’re havin a tough time, they’re, where it was all owned by the family now its own considerably by uh, Bronfran (?) who’s a liquor distiller and uh, and in a, not happily. I think that they, they really got behind on a lot of their research and so on in that long period where they were doing other things. How were you recruited or were you assigned to come out here? Like I say, they called me in on a Friday afternoon and said you’re transferred on loan to the University of Chicago, be up there on Monday morning. We were in Kankakee, of course and just 35 miles outside of Chicago so it was no great big thing bein there but it was a shock especially when you ask the superintendent of TNT “Well, what am I going to do there?” And he says “Nobody told me, he says, I don’t know.” And it was an entirely new, different group of people, you know, more uh, uh, scientifically oriented. PHD’s all over the place and some names you had heard and so on. What was the transition to Hanford then? Well that was uh, I was just telling George, Ward Botsford who was a friend of mine and he was he was back there at site B makin mirrors for instrumentation. So we were gonna come out here together and we both had cars, so we rented a tow bar. And his car was bigger so we towed mine. And so we drove out here. And I think, along about a, a little bit south of Spokane we both would have gladly turned around and gone back, what are we doing in a place like this? You know. It was quite a shock from a pair of city boys to see the desert and nothing, nothin around there and couldn’t see how we could do anything out here. Of course, we both knew what we were gonna do out here, but sure didn’t look like a very good place to do it. You were towing one car because of gas rationing? Yeah, um uh. And uh, that way we could both drive and we made a few side trips, did a day’s fishing at Yellowstone Park. But we got out here and went into the transient quarters and wasn’t went through the next day security and then we were, I was out in the area and Ward was, I’ve forgotten where they sent him. But there was an interesting thing there too on this transition. After being for a year and a half in uh, chemical separations and so on, I got out here and they said I was gonna be in the reactor. I’d never, I’d seen a reactor and it was really a surprise. And I didn’t want to do it because I really had an awful lot of experience in the one place and uh, I really had quite a bit of jump, you might say, on most of the other people who would be here. But it was real interesting, all my notebooks from (unclear) I got out here and they were too classified for me to see. I never did get em. So we went out to, we went out to the area, I went out to the area then, B and uh, followed construction, went through the startup and went through startup of F and then I went over to 200 areas for uh, more construction following and startup over there. I got, that’s where I got the unfortunate name of bein in construction and startups I think is that followed me all the rest of my life. What was the overall mood of country? That’s, it was. Well, you know, we were still losin a lot of lot of uh, soldiers and marines uh, going into these various islands, the McArthur island hopping. And uh, you saw the uh bloody pictures of Tarawa and you saw a lot of the pictures of Guadalcanal and so on and so forth. Uh, I think that there was still a great deal of tension and so on while you began to see that on the long run that uh, that the Japanese were going to lose but at the same time you knew that there was gonna be an awful lot of American lives lost. It was not a happy situation. And, of course, that’s one reason why I was happy to see em drop the bomb because I’m convinced that saved many many thousands of American lives. (And Japanese lives perhaps). It might have because, you know, by that time they’d had their fire storms over Tokyo and it’s questionable whether uh whether the bomb killed more than those fire storms did over Tokyo, I’m not sure. What was it like to see the project for the first time? Through the dust storms, well we saw the through the dust storms and that’s where you, a lot like we had this spring. Those we would have called termination winds in the old days. But, it was an amazing thing. I think, if I remember the numbers, there was over 100,000 construction workers here and they had their dormitories uh, from uh, the old Hanford area and down in there. And actually, that was one of the places we used to be able to go at night to get a pitcher of beer. But you never went by yourself because there was some rough characters. There was all sorts of stories in those days, uh, about, you know they kept the men and women separated by big barb wire fences and there was all sorts of stories goin on there. And there were fights, a lot of fights, and uh, a patrolman at that time, I don’t know whether he was kiddin me or not, came off a shift and he said he’d found a body in a garbage can. That’s quite possible cause there was some rough people. But uh, dust storms, all the houses were still being, most houses were still being built. And you had the big argument about what kind a house you’re gonna have. And of course, well I lived in a dormitory for three months. My wife was back in Illinois, with our one little boy. And it was not a particularly happy period. You looked at it as, well this is a job, there’s others in the Army doin a lot worse that this, so uh, you’d grit your teeth and you didn’t sign up for the termination wind (unclear). What about the scope of the project? Well, time let’s see, what was it, the 550 square miles if I’m not mistaken it was something like 5 to 600,000,000 dollars’ worth of construction and uh, it was so vast it, we didn’t know everything that was goin on, what was bein built, and being built fast. And then, there was a shortage of material. You waited a lot of times for some valves to come in, of course, we had it a lot easier than any place else in the country other, of getting material. That was real interesting, you know, there was an awful lot of waste, a lot of thievery went on, cause a, a lot of the people in construction they had they’d gather them from anywhere they could. Can you remember the first time you saw B Reactor? It looked monstrous, it looked so big. And you gotta bear in mind. Can you give me a full statement? Yeah, the first time I saw a reactor was the first reactor I’d ever seen, other than the little pile. (Chatter) When I first went in there why I was pretty green about the reactors. I had to start readin manuals real fast to find out what was, what the was gonna do there and how it happened. Because uh, there was this tremendous block and of course they were still, still putting up a, a the B blocks and so on and they were starting puttin up graphite inside there and we got to see all that and uh, uh, that was quite uh, edify, for my edification and education. But it was a tremendous place. I be, I’d wondered whether I’d ever understand what it was all about and how to get around it. And then, of course, there was, we were a little leery about that much radiation, uh, the emphasis certainly was on safety. That’s why I found it so difficult to think, to hear that DuPont did so much other, down in Savannah, something doesn’t ring true. Or else it’s a different breed of cattle maybe, I don’t know. Refrigeration Facilities. Well, it, the facility, refrigeration facilities were in B. Each one of the reac, water plants, you know, had something a little different to them. And I think you’re right. I think B had a refrigeration system. F had somethin about a water treatment system, I don’t remember what uh, D had. But uh, they were tremendous units, but there again George, the separations of the people, I never went over into a water plant. You know, to see what was going there. First of all, we didn’t, we didn’t leave the building in uh, the early days toward, after we started up why then they started goin to the change house to each lunch. But outside of that you didn’t go. And you certainly, if you were a reactor man, you didn’t go over and go around the water plant, you know. So we were uh, we knew of course, how much water was comin over. We knew somethin about the quality of it, we knew the pressure. We knew a little bit more about 190 and the pumping because that was so important to us. But when you start gettin down on the, as you say the refrigeration, or some of the water treatments or the filtration plant of the river, I think it was probably uh, I don’t think I got to the river pump house until after I came back here in ‘46 and was in engineering design and did some work down at the river pump house. Only then did I see some of that stuff. It was probably intended to cool the water. Yeah, that that’s right. You, you weren’t, you, like a I heard Don say on the cooling, we were always trying something different, you know, and there was so much unknown in the beginning. I marvel sometime at how quickly we’ve progressed because really in the beginning uh, you were cautious because you didn’t know that much, how it was gonna, bear, look look - as an example that uh, while Fermi and Compton had an idea that the reactor might die from pois, xe, xenon poisoning, but uh, they weren’t real sure of that. They weren’t sure enough that they didn’t go ahead and start and see what happened. And that was a lot of our, a lot of our training. Uh, but you lean so far over backwards on safety that uh, I never, I never felt endangered. Tell us about instrumentation for measuring radiation levels. Well, you’re probably more George, as far as instrumentation measurin, you probably know way more about that than I do. Of course, we all had our chances in the early days of carryin a Beckman (?) around and when we did anything. But uh, they were pretty crude. And you got one arm longer than the other. They must of weighed 35 pounds wouldn’t you think? And we’d traipse all around checkin on leaks and doin this and that, uh... (Chatter) Beckman was an instrument, George can tell you more about it, for really, just only measured (?)(?) (?). Didn’t it George? And uh, we would go around the building with these, we were always checkin to make sure that there were no leaks and no stray radiation and uh, uh, that was one of the jobs that the patrol people did and in com in combining with the radiation monitoring experts. Were you checking with each level? Yeah, yeah, at the doors to the rear face, you know, to make sure that the air flow was in the right direction and nothin leakin out from the door. We went across the top of the reactor and uh, made sure that there was no gas leaking up there. Of course, we didn’t go within the circle of the VSR’s. So you were working in B at the same time as patrol? In B, yeah. (You were there at startup?) Oh, yeah. Well that was, that was a terrible thing cause we didn’t know that much about it. But we started up and uh, very low level, of course, and I was on 4 to 12 at that time. And we came in the next day and everybody had a long face and they were all unhappy that the reactor was dying from the xenon poisoning. And uh, well it went down. Fermi and Marshall, Dr. Marshall and his wife, they were a young pair of physicists and very good. They worked with a Fermi a lot and uh, Morrison was there, Compton was there and they were burnin up their slide rulers. And uh, it didn’t take them too long and they said well okay you just have to put in uh, several more slugs per column and uh, we think we’ll be alright. As I remember, that’s what they said, we think we’ll be alright. So we went up very fast and as I recall, we put in about uh, about 50 more inches of slugs and uh, we were doin that as fast as we could, as a matter of fact it’s kind of interesting. Doc Marshall was a nice young guy and you could talk to him a lot, and uh, we had these old charging machines. Uh, you put a, you put your slug, you take it out of a box, you put it on a little ramp and it rolled down and then you had a lever and you pushed that. And I got him on one of the machines charging and then wouldn’t give him any relief. And he, he kept talkin “Come on, I gotta go somewhere” and I said well, you just stay and do a few more tubes and you’ll be alright. And he laughed and he was a good sport about it but uh, uh, that was a real critical period. And you wondered, you know, you had, you had to have faith that Compton and those guys knew what they were doin and they did. How did information about the second startup hit you? Well, on the second startup how did we feel. Well, you had to have confidence, especially those that came from Chicago, there weren’t too many but, but we had great confidence in Fermi and Morrison and the uh, and the Marshals. And like I say, as you had heard, you could look from the office into the control room and you could see them and they’re burnin up their slide rules and talking and so on and they came out and with the solution, proposed solution, adding extra uranium and uh, you know, at that time as I say, we were not that knowledgeable. A lot, especially me, coming from the 200 area operation you know I, I didn’t uh, it took a long time, I had a fine guy workin, that I was workin for at that time, Fran Mask, very intelligent guy and had achieved a lot of na, of knowledge at Clinton Labs. And he explained to me about iodine and how it degraded into xenon and xenon captured the neutrons so that there wasn’t uh, could be a sustained reaction. So, it was, it was a bad period because there wasn’t the confidence that the thing would, gonna go, you know, general confidence. You hoped and you thought it probably would, but you didn’t dare bet on it. And we were we were all anxiously waiting that next startup and, as I say, I was on 4 to 12 and we uh, between the 4 to 12 people and the l2, 12 to 8 people we finished the recharging the extra metal and they started up on day shift. And uh, the boy, when we came on at 4:00 then the boys on the day shift were breathing a big sigh of relief. That was obviously a milestone. A tremendous milestone. What other milestones were there in that process? Well, you gotta, you know, after a prolonged period is kinda what I looked at, if you remember that the reactors were said to be designed for 250 megawatts, and uh, I think one of the big, big milestones was when we raised from 250 to 400 megawatts. Of course, that paled to the 2,000 that we got later on. But uh, it was awful big, awful big. You had to make a little changes, raise the pressure of your 190 pumps and uh, do a little reorificing and so on. But it was a great thing, because we, by that time we knew, hey we can run these things. And uh, a matter of fact we were probably gettin a little cocky, but uh, that was the big one. Feedback and upgrading- was that significant? Well, it was to me because, you see, I left in May of ‘45, I left the 200 areas and went to rocket powder and uh, went around after rocket powder went to 3 or 4 more plants for du, for DuPont and by that time I was firmly in the design phase, design and construction and startup. And I was goin from plant to plant, so. We had two children at that time so uh, I quit DuPont and I hated to do that and came back here. And when I came back here I went into operations for a short time again, just to get my feet on the ground, but then I went into straight engineering design and I, I had part of building DR, building and design DR & H and uh, eventually ended up following all of the K reactors for opera for operations. Being in on design of those, so. In this early period, was there any problem with fuel failure? Oh yeah. That, that’s probably another milestone with the fuel failures. And uh, we were a frightened bunch of puppies when we realized that we had a slug with a hole in it, you know. And uh, uh, the first the first episodes at getting that out and how to do it, the, all learning, hadn’t been done anywhere before, you know. And uh, had to build all the equipment, how to push it, what do you do with it when you push it out the rear pigtail into the pool. How do you handle that? What about the water there, is it gonna be contaminated so badly. So that was a, that was a real milestone, George, I’m glad you mentioned that. Later on, of course, we ran at such high power levels and uh, high temperatures and we had a lot of em and I can remember one time we had a, we had a, it was at H, we had a critical W - you remember that’s when you shut down for lack of, for lack of electrical backup. And, we had been watching a specific tube in the H reactor, feeling that it was going to be a rupture or gonna stick. So when they shut down uh, we went into getting that out. Sure enough it was a sticker, but we got it out before the critical W was over. And that was, that was quite different than the first time. I think the first ruptured slug or stuck slug we were down for a week. Some did occur at B Reactor during the initial low level operation. Well George, whether there was an original loading, whether there was any fuel elements, I guess I’ve forgotten that if it did. It’s kinda, it certainly is uh, I think, probable but I just don’t remember if we did. Marshall- One of the early professional women out there. I think she was. Um uh. As you know, in the beginning, we had no women out there. The nurse was the only woman in the area. Uh, but, Mrs. Marshall, I’ve forgotten what her name was now, she was a good physicist in her own right and I don’t remember any other women being active in the work at that time. She was a Fermi protégé. What factors made it possible to achieve this? First of all, I think it had number one priority in the country, backed by the president. It was in a war time period where there was a different attitude towards work, I think. You had your Rosie the Riveters and we had our people out here just as dedicated, I think. Get it done, get it done. And uh, you worked. Well, in the beginning, you know, we worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week - we didn’t uh take time off. We’d get home, go down to the cafeteria and eat go back to our dormitory a couple hours playin bridge or whatever, go to bed, get up and do the same thing all over. Uh, so you had the priorities, you had the work ethic and you had a pretty high cadre of well-trained people. Well, here’s an example. Uh, if you were asst. superintendent back with DuPont back there you came out here you what they called an area supervisor. If you were a uh, area supervisor and you came out here you’d be a senior supervisor. I was a senior supervisor, came out here and was a shift supervisor. So, you had, you had people, one, almost 100% engineers or chemists or whatever the discipline was required and most of them had shown some potential or they wouldn’t have been here. There was an awful lot of real good people left back - Kankakee, Memphis and a few other places. They skimmed the cream off, they thought. Some of em weren’t so creamy. DuPont was a great company. Well, of course I don’t, my thought is that DuPont was the best. Uh, and my feeling is that each succeeding contractor went down just a little bit and uh right towards to end, well I think it started with GE. You sent two type of people out here, as far as I’m concerned. This may be heresy but, you sent two type of people out here. You sent out young ones that you want to see whether they can advance to the next dead, or you set, sent out some people who were at a dead end and uh, sent out here, okay here’s a little reward but we’re gonna get rid of you too. But I think you had excellent people. Design wise, design and engineering wise, DuPont at that time, was the best in the country, I’m sure of that. Overall technical and industrial capacity of the U.S. made it possible. Oh, well yeah. We’re on the war time footing, you know, and we’re putting out the maximum effort with good people. The work ethic was there. My chemical experience here was, when I left, after we got B & F reactor, as you might imagine, the 200 areas were behind the reactors in construction. The main the primary job here was to get the reactors built and then the separations. So I followed the design and construction of a 221B and 221U. The only one I missed was 221T. And uh, I stayed there then for the startup of 221B, I was I was in charge of the control office. And uh, then of course that’s when I left there in September, May of ‘45. I didn’t want to leave. I tried to stay another week but Bill Kay said “You get out of here, you’re transferred.” So then you went where? Oh then I went to Hercules rocket powder and we learned to make rocket powder there. Then I went down to Indiana plant 2 and we built that rocket plant. It was a $75,000,000 plant as I re, no $275,000,000. We made 207,000 pounds of rocket powder, we started up in about uh, mid-June. Dropped the bomb August the 8th and we shut it, started shuttin down on the 9th. We made 205, 207 pounds of rocket powder. I had an interesting experience there uh, I was in charge at that time of what they call final testing. It was a, ultrasonic testing, x-ray and fine final inspection. And uh, my boss told me, plant one was smokeless powder and they were gonna shut down there, he said go on over there and interview those people and hire 70 operators. So I went over there and I met with all these operators and I told them how great it was they were gonna get laid off here but they could have a job here and rocket powder was so much more important at this time that you’ll work much longer. Zweifel interview Part Two I had an interesting experience there. I was in charge at that time of what they call final testing. It was uh, ultrasonic testing, x-ray and then final inspection. And uh - plant one was smokeless powder and they were gonna shut down there - he said go on over there and interview those people and hire 70 uh, operators. So I went over there and I met with all these operators and I told them how great it was they were gonna get laid off here but they could have a job here and rocket powder was so much more important at this time that you’ll work much, much longer. Well I hired em in June and in August my boss said “Go and lay em off now.” And they were, they were not happy. What was that rocket powder to have been used for? Oh, well you’ve seen these rockets in the war games and so on, at uh, the propellant for explosives, you know. And, boy, we’d burn, it was really? 50% nitroglycerin, 50% nitrocotton; and uh we made a lot of different shapes but they were (unclear) shape. Mark, mark 18 was 39 pounds, and we burned the, in the testing we burned the uh, 39 pounds in a little over 2 seconds. What did that end up in as far as the weapon? Well God, they put em in tanks George and they had, you’ve seen these Russians had a big batteries of them that fired and we did that too. It was quite a thing. Where were you in August of 1945? I was makin rocket powder at plant 2 in Indiana. And we were living in mud flats. And when they dropped the bomb there were a lot of people there that had come from out here, not a lot but some. And then we heard that the Japanese were gonna surrender. We had a two day party. I guess you could say “I was there”. I was there, that’s right. Remember immediate reaction when you heard that? Oh man. Well, return to, return to a peace time life. Get outta mud flats, at the, living conditions there were the, way worse than out here. We had a little pot belly wood stove in the living room and uh, water recirculated through there for hot water. It was miserable and uh, uh, just well, you can imagine. No more of your friends were gonna be gettin shot up uh, we could live a lot different. You know, after a while your, there were a lot of things that were short. Stand in line for this and that. And uh, just lookin forward to peace time. Any other Reflections on the whole experience? Well, in reflecting back I always felt privileged to have been a part of it. And uh, you always felt in those days, well, you should have been in the service. And I went, I went up in Chicago and twice tried to get into the Navy and each time they’d say - “Well, what are you doin now?” And I’d say well I’m in explosives. “There’s the door, get out.” But uh, you AL, you always felt that you should have been, in your age group, you should have been in the army and not out here. You felt glad that was over. But you did feel that uh, some sense of gratification that you had some part in ending the war. Anything else you’d like to pass to future generations? Well, I wish I could tell more of this generation that they’re makin a big mistake if they don’t proceed with a use, the peaceful use of the atom. Forget all this stuff, the unfounded rumors of what might happen and so on that our friends in Portland and Seattle seem to thrive on. And uh, we’ve sure raised a lot of family here, haven’t we George. And none of em have two heads and none of em have been poisoned. It’s quite possible to have a healthy nuclear industry. I just wish we’d get on with it because petroleum’s running out and besides petroleum’s too good to be burning in gas, in automobiles, it should be making chemicals and medicines. I have no more that I can think of. END Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harry Zwiefel Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Harry Zwiefel conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff428b88f5b77ccce1fd1fab7bbd4a97c.jpg 53ac2b07373133ea3a62bc18f062b9c6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F59604beaf31c3557f1ecee91ad472fee.mp4 53f23bcda9dffb6be8f5472ee8bbb015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Herman Kilian Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Northwest Public Television | Kilian_Herman </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Laura Arata: Okay. Well, good morning. Thank you so much for coming. If I could have you start by just saying your name and then spelling your last name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Herman Kilian: Herman Kilian, K-I-L-I-A-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Thank you. My name is Laura Arata. It is March 3, 2014, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So if we could just start out, I would love to have you tell me a little bit about how your family came to the White Bluffs area, and where they came from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Okay. My family were German immigrants. Mr. Bruggemann, the Bruggemann Ranch out there by the weigh station there at the bridge, brought them over and paid their way for a year's work, for their room and their board and their way over here. You see, they came from Germany in 1927, and they were in such a bad recession. A pound of butter cost a hundred--cost 1,000 German marks for a pound of butter. And they were so poor they couldn't get married, so they got married and came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: And how long did they work on the Bruggemann Ranch, and when did they-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: They worked one year at the Bruggemann Ranch. Now, you can see the Bruggemann Ranch when you go over the Hanford Road to the bridge. It's right to the right. There's an old shack still out there. That's where they spent their first year of their life in the United States. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you know if they spoke any English when they came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No, but they were smart. They learned it pretty quick. They--there isn't that much difference between English and German, a lot of it. You know, if you're smarter than me. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: So when did they acquire their own land? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, I think they--you see, most of the farms around there were, a lot of them, were under receivership. And so they bought a little five-acre tract. It was probably either the first or second year when they were here. My dad went to work for the railroad, and had a steady job, about $0.40 an hour. And, anyway, they bought this five-acre tract with a little house on it. They had to carry their water about a quarter of a mile from the house. We had no electricity until we moved to another house a few years later, but that's the way it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did your family grow crops on that property? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Dad worked on the railroad, and mom was the farmer. And she grew-- we grew potatoes and carrots and everything that you eat, buy in the store for vegetables. We grew everything that we ate. All we bought was flour and spices. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: And at what year were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I was born 1931, right in the heart of the Depression. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: All right, and how many children were there in the family? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Oh, I think there were seven of us all together. My youngest brother was born in Sunnyside, but there were six of us in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you have any memories of White Bluffs as a town or as a community at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I didn't understand the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you travel to White Bluffs a lot? Do you remember as a town what it was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I would like to give you a little idea of what--I went on a trip up the Columbia River on that Hanford-White Bluffs tour when we had our picnic time, and it kind of brought back memories. You see, White Bluffs was the Columbia River. It's just like Hanford. The Hanford Project took that area, because it was a unique spot, had lots of water and kind of isolated. But the Columbia River was a big heater. The earliest fruit that was picked in Washington was picked at White Bluffs. Because the Columbia River would heat—air always came in from the north and the east. And the Columbia River then heated up the air, so all of the fruit were planted along the Columbia River from Hanford over to Vernita, not quite to Vernita. But all the fruit was—it was never heated. They never used any smudge pots, because of the heat from the river and the White Bluffs. You see, the White Bluffs was a reflection from the sun because of its unique whiteness. I remember one year when I was about 12--11 years old, it was 130 degrees in the shade, the 4th of July. I helped my neighbor haul out apples, and it'd bake the apples on the tree, it was so hot. So White Bluffs was probably the warmest area in the state because of those bluffs. You know, the sun reflection off of the white sand. And when you're going up this river, you get to the bend in White Bluffs, you will see an area out there that's got a whole lot of green vegetation on the water, grass, stuff. That would be a sandbar in July. But, you see, when they put the dams in, they regulated the water, so that the river was high enough, where it would always cover the sandbar, if you get the picture, okay? And the Indians would use the sandbar and catch salmon out there on the sandbar. That kind of brought memories back to me. Then when you look over to the left—if you want to take a trip up that Colombia just for the fun of it, if they have one. But there's a bluff up on top, which was a road. And that road was covered with six inches of water or more in 1937 or 1938, had that big flood. But you can imagine how much water came down there. Anyway, I remember I was in the back of the bus when the bus driver said maybe he was going to go through there. He got scared and turned around. We turned around in the water you know, because it so high. But history can do--you can find out in history just exactly what year that was. There was so much snow that we made forts in the school, and we had snowball fights. And anyway, it was a big snow year. And 10 years later it happened again when Vanport was flooded out down in Portland, when the roads in the Tri-Cities were underwater along the river. And it was a lot of water came down the Columbia once in a while. I'm not sure what happens now. I think they regulate it pretty well with the dams. Then you get around to the bend of the road, there's a big house up on the hill that they left there. It's the only house that's left in White Bluffs, that's the Heideman house. And he will tell you that. And that was a big mansion. I remember going to that Heideman house when I was a kid. She had all the state-of-the-art furniture, all of the big chairs and high stuff, everything. It was quite a sight. But Heideman went broke during the Depression and he lost--anyway, he went plumb broke, anyway. But that's the way it was. And then, you see, there was four farmers that was left in White Bluffs when Hanford came in. There was Mr. Fanning. Mr. Fanning had a pretty good-sized farm, probably 100 acres. And he had dairy cattle, and milk cows and then he grew white rose potatoes. And the government bought his potatoes and his milk for the army. They were left in there. And then there was Clark, there was Pat Clark. And then another guy, I forgot his name is. Then Skelton. There were four of them that stayed in there for two years and raised fruit for the army. Okay, if you know what I mean. And anyway, they came out of there pretty well off. The government paid them pretty well. That's the story of the Columbia River. Because White Bluffs was the Columbia River, because that was the heat and the water. That's why the government took that spot because of the big river and the cooling capacity that it had. And other than that, I don't know a whole lot more about what happened. If you want to ask me a question or two, I'll try to answer it. But the Columbia--that sandbar was quite a attraction, because the Indians came there, like I said, and then the carnivals came down. Not the carnival, but with the monkeys--the zoo. Is that what you call it? A zoo? Anyway, they set up down there, and of course it was a good spot. It had lots of water to feed the animals with. But it was quite an attraction for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: It was like a traveling circus? Something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Anyway, I was in the sixth grade when we know left White Bluffs. Sixth grade, And I was 12 years old. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you have any particular memory-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: The one thing that was kind of--the sheep men liked White Bluffs. There was four different--well, let's see, Simon Martinez moved in there about the mid '30s. Simon Martinez now has got the only band of sheep in Washington that's commercial. But he got his start there at White Bluffs. They didn't irrigate too much, but in the spring if the year there were lots cheatgrass, and they lots of food. We actually fattened up the lambs just on grazing on the cheatgrass stuff that grew out there. So it was--being warm and whatnot, why, it was good to the lamb. So that was a good spot for the sheep men. The one thing that I remember about White Bluffs as a kid is there were some little blue lilies that grew out on the--there were some hills out there that were still desert. It was too high. They couldn't get water to it. But we'd walk around out there, and they'd find these little lilies out there. They're little blue lilies. [LAUGHTER] That was our spring work. As soon as the snow got off, got warm, these lilies would come up. Anyway, that was a-- Other than that, why, most of us was poor. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Well, White Bluff's--obviously it's an agricultural community. Do you have any memories of the town itself and some of the businesses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we--I worked with my mom. My mom was the farmer. And we grew potatoes and carrots and rutabagas. We had a root cellar, and we filled that up. Well, a root cellar was--they take these railroad ties and make a—then we'd cover it up with dirt. And it was actually always warm in there, in the root cellar. It was underground, and we'd go down and we'd--when I’d get home from school, why, we would top carrots and rutabagas, and put them down in the root cellar. Dad worked on the railroad, so we did everything, basically, in the evening. And the Indians came over a few times. That was quite a sight to see old Johnny Buck. I still remember Johnny Buck sitting on his big, old Pinto horse with his tomahawk stuck in his saddle. He looked kind of mean to me as a kid. [LAUGHTER] I was about ten, eleven years old. But evidently mom gave him some food, some potatoes and carrots and stuff. And he'd come back once in a while and get some stuff. But, anyway, I remember Johnny Buck, the Yakima chief. Anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Can you tell me a little bit about going to school, what school was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: My school? There was--well, it was just a three-story, I think it was, anyway, a three-story school building. They had--we had basically three grades in one room. Only--a teacher for every three grades. So there was probably somewheres around six or seven of us in a grade. Mrs. Moody was my first teacher, and then Mrs. Reisenauer was my second one. But then we moved. The high school, evidently, burned down the last year before we left there. And so the high school all went to Hanford. And they were getting ready to build a new school, and, of course, the government said to move out, so we moved out. Which, when looking back, you know, why it was a good deal for our country that we did. They took our area. It was kind of sad at the time, but, you know, when you look back and see what good was accomplished, why, it was worthwhile. My dad went back a few times to Fanning's place and cut his—we had a little tractor with a mower on it, and he went back to Fanning's and cut his hay a couple of times. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: So now, you talked a little bit about some snowball fights and forts and things. Do you have any other particular memories of school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, there were just--it got pretty mean, you know? I mean, the big guys would start throwing at us little kids, why, [LAUGHTER] it hurt a little bit. [LAUGHTER] And you can look in the records and see just when that was, that year, okay? But it was in the late '30s. 'Cause I was in school, and I was born in '31, and it had to have been six or seven or eight years later, you know, whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you remember any sorts of community social events that ever happened? I know you mentioned the 4th of July. Was there ever a picnic? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Fourth of July was a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Oops. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I don't know why. They are plugged in. Did this come on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: We'll get you hooked back up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Okay. Fourth of July was--the later years was quite an event. We had a gentleman who belonged to our church that delivered our fuel--gas man, Mr. Swiezel. But he, evidently, made enough money and whatnot where he would buy a whole gob of firecrackers and stuff. And so we-- at least for two years, maybe three, that I remember Mr. Swiezel buying these--I remember when I was a kid, I dropped a fire-- I had a fire cracker land under my feet, and I dropped one down on there, and I was in the middle of a fire cracker cracking. But they were little ones, they didn't hurt anything. [LAUGHTER] The last event that we had was in '42, and they tried to burn down the town of Hanford. That's where he lived. They had a raze-fire out there with the wind a-blowing. [LAUGHTER]. Anyway, by the 4th of July the cheatgrass was all dried up. What the sheep didn't eat was pretty vulnerable. It burned pretty good. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, it was fun growing up in that little community. You know, you knew everybody. But it was also a little bit--I never did know where everybody lived. There wasn't very much, because I just went to church with my dad in the car. And one time I remember driving around the river, and he showed me where these orchards were, where they lived. But other that we were pretty much in our own little communities there. And they talk about a ferry that went from the White Bluffs to the islands. They grew produce out on the islands. I'm not sure if the Japanese did it, or what it was. Anyway, they grew some produce on that island. But I never did see the ferry. I'll have no clue where the ferry is, so you'll have to look on the map and see where that is. Anyway, the flood of '37 was quite a deal. I helped my neighbor yard out apples for a couple of years. That seems kind of strange, you're 10 years old or other, hauling out apples, but we had to work in those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Can you tell me a little more about church? Did your whole family attend? Did your whole family attend church? Was that a pretty regular activity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we went to a Lutheran church, in a Lutheran church. And there was a Presbyterian church in White Bluffs, and a Catholic church, I think. And then a Pentecostal church came in about the mid-30s. I remember Mr. Ham was one of the--there were two Ham boys that I remember. The one died of--got cancer, and the other boy was a big, tough kid. And he tried to get a cart off of the railroad track, and he didn't make it. A train hit him and killed him. But Alan was his name. But, anyway, my life was Dad working on the railroad and us farming. And I milked cows. When I was 12--six years old I started milking cows. [LAUGHTER] Oh, so that was how it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you know if your parents belonged to the Grange or any other? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: The Lutheran church didn't believe in the grange and lodges, okay? But they had a Grange Hall there. Mr. Fanning was the head honcho there at the Grange. We had a neighbor, Win Shaw, that had the apples that we worked in and he loaned dad his machinery and his horses to farm with when he came there. So Win Shaw was a vital part of our life, because we wouldn't have made it without him, I don't think. And my little and my little brother was named after him--Winfield and Juelette. [LAUGHS] Winfield and Juelette Shaw. Named after Win and Juelette. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit about when your family had to leave White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: What we did, what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: When you had leave, do you remember-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: When I had to leave White Bluff? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Yeah, what that was like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we got a truck and loaded up the sheep, and loaded everything that we owned on it, and came to White Bluffs--or came to Sunnyside, which wasn't a bad move. I mean, that didn't hurt us any. You know, life in Sunnyside was probably better than Hanford and White Bluffs. I mean, there was more opportunities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you recall at all, you were 11 or 12 when you moved-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I was 12 when we left there, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you remember any of, like, getting the letter in the mail telling you you had to leave, or any of that process? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No, I don't recall too much about what happened. They offered Dad a job on the railroad over there, but he didn't want to do it, so we didn't stay there. But Dad was a good--Dad was probably the toughest guy in the country. At least over there. [LAUGHTER] He was a strong boy. I mean, he could things that most them guys couldn't. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: What did your family do once you move to Sunnyside? What did you do once you moved to Sunnyside? Were you still-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we had a little farm. We had a--we was right on the edge of the north side of Sunnyside where the Sunnyside canal came around. And we were out there in the sagebrush with the rattlesnakes. [LAUGHTER] We had--I don't remember any rattlesnakes in White Bluffs. Maybe there were, but we never encountered them. But in Sunnyside, really we killed 20 or 30 the first year. The darn things would come down and get in the water. [LAUGHTER] Anyway. But we had to get rid of our sheep, because it was pretty dangerous out there herding the sheep out there in the sagebrush with the rattlesnakes. Oh, we just decided well, we didn't bunch of sheep. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to share? Any other memories? Is there anything I haven't asked you that you'd like to share that stands out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No. I can say the main thing I remember about White Bluffs is that big Columbia River, you know. And that Bruggemann Ranch where Mom and Dad came. And the Heideman house where--well, they worked with Heideman for a year. So, I mean, it was those kind of thing. And then the sheep. I've got one story I want to tell you about sheep, okay? This is a story about our sheep dog. Mrs. Hoferer gave mom a shepherd of some kind. It wasn't a--it was a good--he was a young pup. And he was a good sheep dog. Anyway, about a year later Mrs. Hoferer evidently lost her dog. And so she came over and took our Teddy back home. This was in the spring. And by the summertime, Teddy came back home. All he had left on him--she'd completely shaved him so he could run without getting to hot I guess. I don't know. But, anyway, except for around his neck. And we never thought no more about it. Anyway, Hoferer left Hanford in the fall of '40, '42. And we moved to Sunnyside in about August. In '43, why, here come this dog. And I was out working in the produce stuff, and here come this dog. And he was always a mangy looking mutt. I mean, you can imagine. He probably ran around out there for a year, or six, eight months, anyway. He didn't like Mrs. Hoferer very well, let's put it that way. Whatever she did with him, I don't know, but I went home and I said, Mom, Teddy's out here. And I says, Teddy. He wagged his tail and come up to me. And so we found the dog, again. He found us in Sunnyside. Came all the way over that over there to get here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you keep him after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: That's a fact. That was Teddy. And he lived for about another ten years. Course he was a big dog, and he liked to fight, and we had two females. And he got tore up so bad that one day he came home with his eye hanging out, so I had to put him to sleep. But, anyway, that's my story of Teddy. That was probably the one that I remember the best, you know, my dog. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I got a note. I'm supposed to ask you about the boat races. Do you have any memories of the boat races at White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Boat races? I don't think they had them early, did they? When are they supposed to have had them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Woman: In the '30s and '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: When were the boat races? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Woman: Sometime in the summer in the 1930s and 1940s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I'm told the 1930s and '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: In the 1930s there was some boat races? Well, I don't know of any. Of course, my dad wasn't-- our folks wasn't interested in that kind of stuff. A lot of things I didn't do. Like I said, I never got to the east side of town. I don't know who lived out there. I knew who lived out there, but I don't know where. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: We'll, is there anything else that you think it's important for students, who, maybe don't know about White Bluffs to know about what happened there before it was closed down? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, not really. I think, basically, White Bluffs was an agricultural community, and some made it and some didn't. It was a Depression time. I mean, it wasn't any different than Sunnyside. People came out from the Midwest. We fed people that came out here from the Midwest, with nothing after the drought and everything that they had. We just kind of raised crops and puddled around in our own way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about Hanford? Any of your responses to, kind of, the end of World War II when you found out what was going on there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, Hanford was a bad word for Sunnyside people. I mean, for white-blooded people. [LAUGHTER] Whatever. Well, it really wasn't. I mean, at the time were just one community. But I didn't know the kids that went to school at Hanford. Because that was, oh heck, it was 7 miles away. [LAUGHTER] You didn't get very far very fast. We were lucky our old car ran. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you recall how you felt when you learned what they were making at Hanford at the end of World War II? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well. There was kind of a--it didn't bother me any too much. I mean, I didn't--it would have been a little bit easier if they had told us what was going on, but it was such a military secret that, they didn't--I don't know whether the workers that worked out there knew what they were working on. They just built stuff and that was their job. But what was going on was kind of a military secret. They didn't want somebody shooting bombs over to blow the place up, I think. It was kind of a hush-hush operation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Great. Well, that is all my questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to be included? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, you know, when you're six years old, you don't know a whole lot, you know? That's all I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: That's great. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming and sharing your memories with us. I really appreciate you being here and sharing all these stories. I'm out of questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: You're out of questions. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Are we stay on time? Is that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Did I talk too-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I don't want her yelling at me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Did I talk too much? My wife-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: My wife says I talk too much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: That was wonderful. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I've got a-- I'm dyslexic, I can remember everything, but I can't read. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I have a hard time reading, but I could remember everything that I heard. [LAUGHTER] So, I mean, I don't forget the-- </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:34:13 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 194 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Clark, Pat Martinez, Simon Buck, Johnny Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herman Kilian Description An account of the resource An interview with Herman Kilian conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/3/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8ed8dc1e6b38bd599fcc09fedebc1dbc.jpg 673bb8d594aac8b1b6c352ef50510eb2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ca494bbf5382d1e39ee50d5cc515c13.mp4 9ee3058d843d7a6d4b7e60f083f39b78 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herschel Crose Description An account of the resource An interview with Herschel Crose conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56eeef5b00b25e194aa2a4f470d59e48.jpg 30fa2c717deffcf7d48f10470be1d34e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe3f2d449f0cc39c52e03d53b645abf9b.mp4 e2ee1049296d50c1767074c105fbd2ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sparre, Ilene Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sparre_Ilene Ilene Sparre: You know, I spoke on the radio once. In the first six--at 30 seconds, I goofed it up so bad I just relaxed and said I already look like a fool. And then I was really good. [LAUGHTER] They invited me back. You know, it was the first 30 seconds that was so bad. [LAUGHTER] Man One: I've had more than 30 seconds of bad radio in my time, so don't feel bad. [LAUGHTER] Woman One: 30 seconds is pretty good. Man One: That's excellent, really. Robert Bauman: That’s not bad, actually. That's very good. Man One: Anytime you're ready, I'm good. Bauman: Okay. Man One: Let's see. Your back light looks good. Man Two: Yeah. Looks fine. Man One: Okay. Man Two: Yep. Bauman: All right, we'll go ahead and get started then. So let's start by maybe first having you say your name and spell it for us. Sparre: Okay. I am Ilene Gans-Sparre. And Ilene is I-L-E-N-E, Gans--G-A-N-S-, and Sparre--S-P-A-R-R-E . Bauman: Great. All right, thank you. Today's date is August 28 of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start by having you tell me a little bit about your family and how your family came to Richland. What brought them here and when? Sparre: Well, my father had eight children, and we had two cousins living with us and grandma. So there was 13 of us. And he bought a farm in Richland close to Benton City on the clift. And there was a little river down there which we could walk to and fish in. It also had quicksand, which we learned to stay away from. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good place for all of us children to run around in. And, of course, he thought children was money because they could work on the farm, except, he had six girls, which kind of changed that. [LAUGHTER] But he had a dairy most of his life besides the farming. We just loved it because we had not so much rain, like on the West Coast. And we had all that sagebrush to run around in. And it was just great living out there. And of course, we did what other farmers did. We saved food for winter. We canned, we froze. We had a dirt cellar. And my dad built our house. Wasn't too good at first, but it got better. [LAUGHTER] Because there wasn't any money much. But we had a great life and lots to eat. Bauman: So where did you move from? Sparre: I think he moved from Idaho. He had inherited a piece of property. His father was 66 when he was born. And he was born in Lapwai, Idaho. And his father had gotten this property, 80 acres, for being in the Civil War. And my dad inherited that. But there wasn't any money in Idaho. There wasn't a lot of food and it was very difficult. So he managed to sell that and got this piece of property in Richland. And we built everything from scratch. Bauman: And what were your parents' names? Sparre: Ellen and Jesse Gans. Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on your farm? Sparre: Actually, I remember the watermelon. I remember the potatoes and filling our dirt cellar with potatoes and onions and carrots. And then before the war, we always went to Yakima and picked hops, and got fruit and brought that back and canned it. But things changed during the war. Bauman: How so? Sparre: Okay. Well, my dad, because he had so many children, they did not want him in the army. But they made him go in the National Guard. And then he worked in the dairy on the farm during the day. And he guarded it at night. So he had to do that for two years. And in fact, he got in trouble quite a bit because he kept falling asleep while he was guarding in the middle of the night after working all day. [LAUGHTER] He got threatened with court martial a couple of times because he couldn't stay awake, you know? Bauman: Where was he guarding? Sparre: Hanford Project. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sparre: They confiscated him for that and he was pretty close to it--you know, where our property was. And when they said do this, you did it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So on your farm, on your property, what other--did you have any other buildings? Barns? Sparre: Oh, we had lots of barns for the cows, you know. And of course, back then, there wasn't milking machines. So they had to be milked by hand. And the older brothers and sisters helped my dad with the milking before they went to school and after they got home. And we were all out there working all the time. [LAUGHTER] One of my fondest memories as a child was trying to start the car. You had to crank it. And mother was trying to start it but I was only three or four and I couldn't crank it fast enough. So my other sister put her foot in on the clutch. And I put my foot on the gas. And we sit on the floor. And when mother said let go of the clutch, and give it a little gas, but keep your foot on the brake, we did it. And we got it started. [LAUGHTER] This, you know, three and four-year-old. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What kind of car was that? Sparre: I have no idea. But it was an old Model T. Bauman: Now, did you have electricity and telephone? Sparre: It seems like, eventually, we got electricity. But we started out with candles and kerosene lamps and outhouses. We never had an inside bathroom in those days. Bauman: And what about telephones? Sparre: Oh, no. There wasn't a telephone anywhere. Anywhere around our area, there wasn't telephones, you know? I'm sure there must have been in town. But I don't think that I remember, when I was real little, there wasn't anybody to call. [LAUGHTER] The world was different then. Bauman: Do you remember who any of your neighbors were at the time? Sparre: Well, across the field, Peterson. His last name was Peterson. And he was our neighbor and my dad's best friend, which is probably why we settled there. Why we got the opportunity to buy that property. He had the farm next door. And it was very upsetting because he did get drafted in the army and he did not come home from the war. Which was very upsetting to my father because he had lost his older brother in World War I. You know so it was very meaningful to him. Bauman: Sure. Sure. Sparre: And then somewhere around the area lived the Shipleys. Claude Shipley, who was an aunt by--I mean, an uncle, by marriage. He married my dad's older sister. And his family lived around there. But where, you know, I don't know. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What sort of irrigation did you have for your crops? Do you know? Sparre: Well, the river was there. And somehow, my dad knew enough about old world irrigation. There was no ditches or anything, but he knew how to get the water from the river to the plants. I don't know how, but it's funny. A lot of those things were passed down from generation to generation that, nowadays, people just don't know. But he did know. Bauman: So you mentioned your father working for the National Guard at Hanford. Was your family able to stay on their land? Sparre: On our land. We were until--when they had the accident. Some radiation leaked and the cows ate the grass and got radiation. And it affected the milk. I guess it was a temporary thing. But it did affect a lot of us. It did not affect the two babies. And they were in the study that they did on the radiation because the babies had the mother's milk. But it affected all of us older ones except the one sister who was allergic to milk. She didn't have a thyroid problem, but the rest of us six did have a thyroid problem. And my dad then found out what was going on out there. He did not know. They didn't tell the people around what they were building. And so consequently, everybody was happy. And then when he found out and his two years were almost up with the National Guards, and they said you couldn't sell your property. But he sold it anyway. And we moved. And they didn't stop him. Bauman: So what time frame was this that this accident happened? Sparre: Well, this was probably 1941, '42, somewhere along— Bauman: Before the war. Sparre: When exactly the milk was contaminated was somewhere between '40 and '42. Maybe '43. You know, somewhere in that area. We moved away, I think, in February, in '43. So he was really pretty upset about that. Bauman: You mentioned that almost all of you developed thyroid problems? Sparre: Yes. Bauman: When did that-- Sparre: Well, when you went through puberty, it came out. And nobody in the family had ever had a problem. Including my mother got it. And nobody had ever had that problem before in the family, you know? So, just naturally, everybody assumed it was--and being so close to Hanford, our cows probably got more than somebody further away. But, again, I was a child and they didn't tell me these things. But I was probably called Snoopy, because I was always sitting in the kitchen behind the stove where they couldn't see me and listening to all the adult conversations around the stairs. [LAUGHTER] So I was so curious about everything and every single night, I listened to the news. Gable Heater was on and we listened to the news. We had the blackouts. We had to make sure. And since Daddy found out, we made sure there wasn't a speck of light anywhere around our farmhouse. So it was quite a different world. Bauman: So you had a radio and that's how-- Sparre: We did have radio. So we probably had electricity by that time. And since Hanford had electricity, they probably came out and put it in the places around. Bauman: So about how old were you then when you moved away? Sparre: When I moved away? Six. When the people starting to build Hanford came in, our little town of a couple hundred people suddenly became a quite big town of city people who were not always good like farmers. And they just invaded everything and there was a lot more crime suddenly. And the streets were crowded. And going to school, they had two sets of classes, early morning classes. And then you had to take all your books and everything and move all your stuff away because somebody else was going to use your desk in the afternoon. And I went to kindergarten but they put me in a year early because I was a pain to my mother. [LAUGHTER] I just was this little kid that thought I knew everything. I was not a good little kid. Anyway, she took me down to school when I was four and put me in kindergarten. [LAUGHTER] And they took me. Then when I went to first grade, there wasn't enough room in the classroom to have a desk, so they put a bunch of us good kids at a big table. Two sets of classes. There were so many people. Bauman: So it was first grade when you started to see the growth in the number of students because of Hanford site? Sparre: Well, I think more like in kindergarten; that was really there. Except most people didn't send their kids to kindergarten. You didn't have to. And most people didn't bother. And they were moving and all that. But my brothers and sisters didn't go to kindergarten. But she sent me to get rid of me. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What other memories do you have of the school? Do you remember any teachers? Sparre: Well, yeah. I remember--I was a teacher's pet, of course. [LAUGHTER] I do remember that. I do remember a note she sent home, could you try to teach Ilene to be a little neater? [LAUGHTER] But the teachers were overworked because they had to teach two full classrooms. I mean, it all happened so suddenly. And our little town didn't have that many teachers and there weren't that many. And the workers from Hanford came in, but of course, they didn't send teachers. They just--they didn't really--I don't know if they really realized how little we were--the little town was. We didn't have but a little co-op where we could get flour and sugar, you know, the basic staples, along with the cow food and the grain and things that we needed on the farm. And then suddenly, there wasn't enough food and they had to go bring in food from other towns and set up another store. And they were building, but there wasn't enough builders. And it was total confusion. And before Hanford came in, we knew everybody in town. But suddenly, Daddy didn't want to go shopping there anymore. He went to Prosser. It was equal distance to Prosser or Kennewick, so he just went to Prosser. Bauman: I know you were very young, but do you remember any of the businesses or stores that were in Richland? Sparre: Well, I remember where we got the food for the cattle and the flour. And my parents went to town only once a week and that was on Saturday afternoon. And just once a week. And then we started going to Prosser to get food. But outside of that, I don't think there was a library. There was a school. I think there was a post office, but it was all so little. Little tiny town. And there was a gas station. But I remember our church, that one Sunday it was closed because Hanford took over our church property. And so the next Sunday, the pastor spoke on the radio. And I recognized that voice. And it was the first time I'd ever heard a sermon--listened in church, really. And that's the day I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Because I listened, you know. And when he talked about being a sinner and needing to be saved from sin, I was such a bad little girl. I knew I needed a Savior. [LAUGHTER] So I did. Bauman: So what church was that? Sparre: That was the Assembly of God. He spoke on the radio and how we could get another property and build another church. But it was just, like, they didn't give us any choices, just was closed sign. And they didn't give us time or anything. It's just, okay, it's shut. But then everybody knew it was war and you did what--we all cooperated because we knew what was going on. Bauman: Do you remember any special events when you were growing up? Picnics or-- Sparre: Well, yes. I remember there was always--in Richland Park, every summer, there was a story hour, where they told stories, and there was a picnic, and there was a little wading pool and we got to go swimming in the water. Of course, I was little. There was a little bathroom there. And one memory I have is I was only three or four, maybe not even four. But I went to the bathroom by myself and I looked for--oh I remembered how to spell woman. And the last three letters were M-E-N, and so I went in the men's. And there were men in there. I came out real fast! [LAUGHTER] And I said, this is supposed to be the women's. And the man said it to me, it says M-E-N. Women is W-O-M-E-N. Always look for W-O. Okay. So I found it. [LAUGHTER] I guess that's one of my memories of being at the park--in the Richland Park down there. And they had some kind of event down there every year when we took a picnic--that was before the war. And, again, Daddy didn't cooperate much with the town or the people after the war because there was so many people, and farmers kind of like [LAUGHTER] small crowds. Bauman: Do you know if your father or mother belonged to any organizations in the community? The Grange or anything like that? Sparre: No, we always went to the fairs. But we went to a church. That was the only time we were anywhere was church. Or if there was some reason the community was getting together for some cause or something. And then they'd notify people and we'd have a potluck and get together. I think they had some Richland Day--something once a year that they did that with. And people were sick or needed help, people would get together and do things. I do remember that. And outside of that, I don't remember much, except my dad used to play the fiddle and the violin and the banjo. So people came and, at least once a month, they played music all evening. I do remember that. But, you know, there weren't very many people in those days. [LAUGHTER] And everybody was coming from a long way. I mean, we didn't have a tractor. Nobody had a tractor around, anywhere around. You plowed with the horses, you know? The world was really different in the 1930s and early '40s. Bauman: Did you have any specific chores as a little girl on the farm? Sparre: Well, yes. We had to feed the calves--the baby calves. There was always, on a dairy, there's always baby calves. And we would make pets of them, and of course, every time they were slaughtered, we'd cry. [LAUGHTER] Because those were our pets. But we had to feed the baby ones. I was little, but still, I had to feed them whenever there was work to be done, you know? I mean, we had to participate. When I was little, I had to pick--I was only five, and I had to pick a box of cherries in the morning and a box of cherries in the afternoon. I was only five, you know? [LAUGHTER] And I didn't get my box in the afternoon finished, so my dad and everybody sat down under the tree and wouldn't go home till I finished my box. Ever after that, I worked first, played later. I mean, it's just amazing. Now, they don't want kids to work. But it was one of the best gifts our father gave us--was the ability to work and know that was a part of living. And he made it so much fun, you know? He participated with us. And I have a memory of a truckload of food coming--because we're such a big family--that during the war, they came to our house and dropped off four or five boxes of food. And my dad said no. And he picked up the boxes and put them back on the truck and said, we do not take handouts. We take care of our own. Give this to somebody who needs it. And even though we looked at those oranges and thought, whoa, that's nice. But that was a wonderful gift he gave us, because none of us were on welfare. And a big family, we all got an education. We all went to school. We took care of ourselves because he gave us the gift that we worked. We help others, but we don't need the help ourselves. Bauman: So you mentioned--you talked about how this small little town changed quite a bit, obviously. Do you remember when you or your family first found out that something was going to be built not too far from your property? Sparre: Well, my dad came home from town and he says there's rumble, you know? And, of course, he always listened to the radio in the morning and at noon and in the evening--with the news. And of course, we knew about Pearl Harbor. And we knew about the war before then, except we weren't involved. And then suddenly, we were involved. And then the government army and everything--trucks--started rumbling into town. And he knew it was something about that. And almost immediately, they came by and enlisted him in the National Guard, whether he wanted to or not. He was in. But you couldn't object because there was war. And then, of course, they started rationing the food. But we didn't have a problem because we were on the farm. We had our meat, our vegetables, our fruit. And the only thing we didn't have was sugar. Mother canned the fruit without sugar and then we each got like a 1/4 of a cup of sugar a month to last us. And if we used it all at once--and we hid it because my dad liked sugar in his coffee and he'd take a pinch out of each one so we wouldn't miss it. So we worked hard hiding our sugar. [LAUGHTER] And the first thing, I remembered getting up in the morning to go see if my sugar was still hid. [LAUGHTER] It was the consequences of war! Bauman: So you did not have to move initially with the construction of Hanford? Sparre: No. No, because we were out in the country. But we weren't far from Hanford, you know? Bauman: Right. And then you did move. Where did you move to? Sparre: Sunnyside. Daddy had studied the issue, and it was a consensus of opinions that if there was a fallout from Hanford, it would not reach Sunnyside. So it sounded like a good place to move to. And it was good farmland. He got a place in Sunnyside. Bauman: Are there any other things--memories you have of the community of Richland or growing up on the farm that we haven't talked about yet? Sparre: Well, it's hard. I can still see the school for a little school--very little school--and coming into town. Bauman: Where was this school? Sparre: Well, as you came into town, it was right up the hill. First thing you saw was the school. Wasn't very many students. Very little school. And of course, there were the Tri-Cities. The other towns were a little bit bigger, but Richland was always pretty small. It was a farm town. Bauman: Do you remember any of your classmates, any of your friends at school? Sparre: Well, I remember the Peterson boy next door. But after the war, he moved. The widow and her son moved. And that's all I remember of that. Mrs. Cherry was my teacher. I remember that because it sounded like cherry. [LAUGHTER] I'm sure it wasn't quite cherry, but that was as close as I got to it--the name. Bauman: And did you walk to school? Did you take a bus? Sparre: Oh, no. We took a bus. We took a bus. Yeah. Bauman: And was this a regular school bus? Sparre: It was a regular school bus. I can't remember that it was very big. But it was probably a smaller big school bus, you know. And it came on the--right down here was the canal. And then there was the highway. And down here was our property, which I remembered it being a mile down there, but it was, like, half a block. [LAUGHTER] But when you're four and you're walking up there to go to school, it was a long walk. I remember one day playing in the canal and mother told us not to because the water was coming in. And my brother, who was six years older, he suddenly grabbed us and, get out of there, get out of there, the water's coming! And it came in just as we got out of the canal. [LAUGHTER] I do remember that. But didn't seem like it was a long bus ride. And it doesn't seem like the bus was full. Bauman: I know, again, that you were young still when you moved away, but, overall, what your thoughts about growing up in Richland, in that small town? Sparre: Well, we loved where we were. I mean, down there in the water, my brothers built a raft and had a pole. And we went all around and fished and played in there. But there was quicksand there. And one day, Daddy's prize cow got caught in the quicksand and all the neighbors came. But before they could pull it out, it drowned. Think of us kids playing down there. [LAUGHTER] But we knew where the quicksand was so we didn't go over there. And my dad was an old-fashioned man. He was a very, very good. He never lost his temper. But if he said something and you disobeyed, he did have a razor strap. And he knew how to use it. But you didn't get beat on because you didn't get spanked more than once. That was it, which was very good. Reminds me of the verse in the Bible that says, children--fathers, don't make your children angry. Go ahead and spank them if they need it. [LAUGHTER] And that's a pretty good thing. Just to do it and get it good enough and then you won't have to do it again. And that's what my father did. So we just obeyed him. And then he was so kind, very kind. So we had a great home life, you know? And he played music. And as we grew up, all of us had to play instruments. And can you imagine? He made us practice an hour a day. And all of us played different instruments. It's bad enough listening to my girls practice the piano. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what instrument did you play? Sparre: What? I played the oboe and the clarinet and the piano. Except, I really don't make music. I'm really not musical. But I played because that's what we did in our house, you know? But we had so much fun growing up in Richland. It was not that much fun in Sunnyside, because we were pretty close to town. There were people all around. And they had rules and regulations that we weren't accustomed to. Mother put us in pants and shorts to play in in Richland, and the town people in Sunnyside objected to that. [LAUGHTER] So we couldn't wear them! [LAUGHTER] I mean, it was just so different than living out in the country. Mother always had Sunday dinner and people were always over Richland. I don't remember if there were always relatives but it seems like a lot of them were friends and who they were, I don't remember. Bauman: Your father sold your farm. Is that farm still operational today? Sparre: Well, there's a nice house down there, you know, but what’s on it--there's quite a few houses down in that section. We walked to the back of the farm and we could fish in the--I think it was the Yakima River. And I remember catching a fish there when I was probably five. I was the only one that caught a fish that day. I remember that. [LAUGHTER] But there were so many things to do and to be inventive and play, which was really good for us. But it was just different when we moved where there were people. Bauman: Do you know if your parents felt similarly about leaving Richland, if they were sort of disappointed that they had-- Sparre: Well, they both really wanted out. Mother knew that my father couldn't continue to guard and run a dairy. It couldn't continue to do that. He was exhausted. And yet that didn't seem to register. They didn't care. I'm sure it wasn't that they didn't care, but I'm sure the army officers had their own way of thinking and there was a crisis. It was just really hard. And so they were both very thankful to move. Bauman: Well, I think I've asked all the questions I have. Do you have anything else you want to add? Sparre: You know, I'd take a look at my list and I probably have mentioned--oh, this is the wrong one. But I think I pretty much covered everything that I can think of. Bauman: Great. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, Ilene. Appreciate it. Sparre: Yeah, I wish I could remember more. [LAUGHTER] I think it's neat that you're doing this. And thank you for asking me. Bauman: Well, thanks for coming in. Appreciate it. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 211 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Gans, Jesse & Ellen Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ilene Sparre Description An account of the resource An interview with Ilene Sparre conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-29: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Housing Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe80beb5154618d8295a95eee7f5b8a14.jpg 43787b89f24557ddf576521451cebe2b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff220c73e523f20cff3aeee53e2fe7144.mp4 d3b14b061b0f43c142dcc6c5a2beee72 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Iral Nelson Description An account of the resource An interview with Iral Nelson conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ed21d8bfe16578201b1dbf9d81c15f9.jpg 59f28e2796fb3381c6cb93f53e568820 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Armstrong Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready? Tom Hungate: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jack Armstrong on May 30, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jack about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Jack Armstrong: My real name? Franklin: Sure. Armstrong: Okay. John Armstrong. J-O-H-N, A-R-M-S-T-R-O-N-G. Franklin: Great. But you prefer— Armstrong: Jack. Franklin: You usually go by Jack. Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: And so Jack, where and when were you born? Armstrong: February 25, 1942. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: In Ilion, New York. Franklin: Ilion. Is that in Upstate? Armstrong: I believe it is. I’m not real familiar with it. I was two years old when we left there. Franklin: Sure. So tell me how and why you came to the area. Armstrong: Well, my dad came here in ’44. We came in to Richland, and we rented part of a B house down on Douglas in Richland. Then later on, he got offered an H house, which is located at 407 Delafield in Richland. We lived there until they passed away, and then we sold the house. But then of course I had a brother which was a machinist out at 272-W in West Area. And my two sisters, one’s in Arizona and one’s in North or South Dakota. And I’m here. Franklin: Okay. And so why did your father come to the area? Armstrong: He was working for Remington Arms back there, and he heard there was some jobs out here, and he moved here and got on. He actually retired at PUREX where they got the little problem there. But I didn’t know anything about it or anything like that. He never talked about it, like a lot of them didn’t. Franklin: Even after the war? Armstrong: Yeah, it was just, he had a job. Just like when I got on out there, I just took whatever I could get, which was in the mailroom and the carpool out at 100-N in ’63. I saw Kennedy fly in to break ground. That was quite an experience. And then, over the course of years that I worked out there for 39 years, I held about seven different jobs, because I got bored where I was at. I did road crew, I did bus driving, storage delivery. I just had the best of it all, as far as I was concerned. Franklin: Right on. So no idea of what your dad did? Armstrong: No. Franklin: Do you know what he did at Remington? Armstrong: I have no idea. Franklin: Okay. Sounds like maybe something with machining maybe, because he worked for a gun— Armstrong: I don’t know. All I really know is that at PUREX he was mixing some chemicals and he was pushing some levers or something like that, and he was mixing some chemicals to do something. I didn’t understand any of it. Franklin: Sure. How long did your father work out at Hanford for? Armstrong: Oh, I have no idea. He’s been gone for quite a few years. Franklin: But it was well into the Cold War, though. Because PUREX didn’t—I believe PUREX came around in the early ‘50s, and so— Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: So, tell me about, what were your first impressions of—I know you would’ve been very young, but what were your first impressions of Richland and the Alphabet Houses and kind of the unique community here? Armstrong: Well, there was a lot of the barracks. A lot of the barracks that people would—and in fact, my dad was telling me about out at Hanford where they had confiscated the property out there and all that. It was just so much going on. In fact, you look at Richland today to what it was before, and you wouldn’t even recognize it. There’s a lot of history that the older people still hang on to. The 703 Building down behind the Federal Building, I mean, that all just engulfed that whole area, and it just changed so much. How many times has the post office moved from where it was, and stuff like that. That’s one of the things that I remember, right, I mean, every time I come into Richland, something’s changed. But it’s been interesting, the growth. I don’t know, I get a lot of questions about that. But I moved to Kennewick and I’m glad I’m there. But I had to drive al the way from up near the Home Depot all the way out—and lucky I didn’t have to drive all the way out to the Area like some of the people did. I think this bus service that they got rid of might have been costly to them, but the thing is, it sure saved people a lot of fuel, a lot of—I mean, we were busy just keeping the roads clear when it was the winter time. And trying to get people to work and stuff like that. But the buses took a lot of that away so that it was easier for people to get on a bus and go off to work. Franklin: Right, and there just wouldn’t be that Hanford traffic— Armstrong: Right, right. Franklin: Yeah, if the Hanford bus service was still around. Armstrong: Yeah, yeah. So it really, I mean—and then, of course, along came the hours that was limited on drivers to drive. So we couldn’t do any of that. We had to go home, take a rest for six hours or eight hours or whatever, and then come back. I gave up my CDL when I retired. I didn’t need it anymore. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: But I was one of the first ones that ever got it. And I was proud of that. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. And so how long did you—do you remember when you moved into the H house? Armstrong: Oh, gosh. I was so young. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: I don’t remember. Franklin: What schools did you go to? Armstrong: I went to Lewis and Clark, which, none of it’s there. And there used to be, right there on Fitch, when you run Fitch right into the school ground, there was a building there, and I can’t remember what it was. It’ll probably come to me later, but that was right there at the end. Collum was the one that T’ed right there. And I’d walk over to the school and go to school. Then I went to Carmichael, and I went to Col High and graduated in 1960. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember anything about when Richland privatized? Did your parents purchase the home that you were living in, the H house? Armstrong: Yeah, we did. Yeah. And we dug the basement out and added to the basement and all that, compared to what—most of all the houses, the B houses and the A houses and all that had part of a basement that was still dirt or sand or whatever you wanted to call it. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: But, yeah, a lot of good memories. Franklin: Yeah, well, can you share a couple with me? Armstrong: Well, we just basically—in fact, I still have association/contact with some of the people that lived in the neighborhood and have gone over and helped them out and do different things, repair things for them and stuff like that. But I get over to the neighborhood. My brother built the carport on the side of the H house for my dad for the car. And it’s still standing, and it’s doing great. But life goes on and everything changes. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: But other than that, we used to be able to walk over—well, over Wellsian Way there used to be a pond there that they used to stock fish with. And we used to walk over from the house and fish in there every year. And then they—it was a kids’ fishing pond. And they turned around and covered that all up and put businesses in there. And so on like that. A lot of things have changed that I think they lost their hand on it, because it would’ve been something that the kids today would’ve had something to do. And so— Franklin: Do you remember much about the incorporation, or kind of the general attitude of the town, how people felt about the government kind of getting out of the housing business? Armstrong: I don’t really know too much about that. I know that I didn’t even consider buying a house in Richland. My first marriage, we bought a house in Richland, and then when we divorced, I went, moved over to Kennewick. That worked better for me. But I still know a lot of the streets and which way to go and all that stuff. Franklin: Right. Do you remember—do you have any memories of doing civil defense drills when you were in— Armstrong: In school, we were, in Lewis and Clark, we’d always go in and line up in the hall and lie down and put your hands like over your face and all that stuff. Yeah, that was interesting. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Because you would’ve been in school, then, really during that high point, the real high point of tensions between the US and the Soviet Union. Was that ever talked about often? And was it still—how much did you know about what went on at Hanford at that time? Armstrong: I had no idea. Franklin: No idea? Armstrong: I had no idea. But I know that I was working at Safeway, that I was a carryout— Franklin: This was during when? Armstrong: This was when I had graduated from high school. Franklin: Okay, so in the early ‘60s? Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: Yeah, and I went and I went into the Navy and went in—I was a reservist for six years and two of it was active. Wouldn’t ya know I get stuck in Hawai’i at Fort Island. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Fort Island. Armstrong: Yeah, I know. So I was there, and my brother got brother duty and came on the ship that I was on for a while. But I came back and I got on at Safeway and was still a carryout. Then, somebody said, well, you ought to apply out at Hanford. Just get anything you want, just to get in. So anyway, just happened to be lucky that the gal I was married to, she worked at Fashion Cleaners over in Kennewick. This guy that interviewed me took his suits in there. So anyway, he went and told her before—after I got the interview done and everything. And he said, well, he’d call me tomorrow or the next day. So anyway he goes by the Fashion Cleaners, which I don’t even know if it’s still there, but he said, well, he’s got the job. So I got that, and once I got in the door, I had different things that I was able to get into. Franklin: Right. And so what was your first job out on Site? Armstrong: That was mailroom and the carpool. I took care of lubing the vehicles to the garage and stuff like that, and also delivering the mail to 105, 1100 Building, let’s see, I can’t remember the other ones. But there’s numerous buildings there that I would carry mail to, and I had that responsibility. I had a clearance where I could have people sign for things that they were mailing from one place to another, and I would make sure whether they were Secret or whatever, and I would deliver them. I had no idea what was in there, didn’t care, just delivered it. And then there was a guy that they were going to be laying off, and this guy was a control room controller. He couldn’t do it down in the Federal Building in the mailroom, so he wanted to switch with me so that I could do the mail down there, and he could possibly get—And then everything fell apart for him, but I walked right into it, because I got the job downtown and then I put in for a lube and tire job. Yeah, it was a lube and tire job out, there at 1170 Building. And I drove bus for five or six years and totally loved it. It was a ball. Franklin: What did you love about driving bus? Armstrong: What did I like? Franklin: Yeah, what did you love about it? Armstrong: Well, you got to know the people. It was just a lot of fun. I got rotated around the areas, so I would be able to—I had to know all the routes. In fact, the thing is is what a lot of people don’t realize is that all those bus drivers had to memorize the routes in town. Richland was the only one that would take the routes through the town. So, it took a while to know them forward and backwards. If somebody changed the color of their house or something like that, you had to make sure you knew that house was changed colors so you didn’t want to make a wrong turn. Plus, then you had the routes out in the areas, which you had to run. They had it set it up to where when you get to the main gate, one goes this way, and one goes this way, and they crisscross and then they meet up at the front of the Area. Some of those drivers get out of some of those buses leaving there and get back in the bus and go back to town. Then they’d be off for four hours during the day and then be on in the afternoon to go back up to pick up their bus and bring the people in. Worked real good and I really liked it a lot. Then I turned around and put in for the road crew. And I did that for five or six years, totally loved that. Franklin: Describe road crew to me, what kind of activities— Armstrong: Okay. You pump septic tanks out there. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: It’s not the best job in the world, but somebody’s got to do it. Then, we patched sidewalks, roads, small things that we did. Sprayed weeds out there. Since then, they’ve turned around and put it in to where they have a little more advanced equipment to do that. Believe it or not, we were out there with an old tractor on the front of a tank, and there was somebody on the back with a hand wand, and somebody was driving the tractor, whether it was me or somebody else. We’d drive through and spot-spray or whatever we were doing. Since then, they’ve actually went and put helicopters or whatever out there, and they spray and do so much quicker job and better job than what we can do. But we pretty well did it all. Especially when wintertime came, we had some salt mixed in with the sand, so that it wouldn’t freeze. But the thing is that a lot of people didn’t understand—and I learned a lot from this guy from Idaho, he was my boss for a while, and he said that actually, he said, the salt only works down to a certain degree, and after that it’s no good. And then they had dry pavement blades, which they finally eventually got away from. But they were, I thought, a lot more cost effective, because you didn’t have the shoes down there that would wear out. But they changed—with everybody they switch out with managers and stuff like that, everybody’s got a different idea. But we would—we’d be out there all night, trying to keep people to where they could be safe going out to work. There was one night that I was called out there and it was just below the east hill. We had heard that there was a gal that was coming from the power plant there at West Area. We all knew her. She was coming down the road and slid off the highway. Anyway, I was the only one out there, and I was going down the road, and I thought, well, I’ll stop and see if I could help her. Well, I put on the brakes and I didn’t stop. I mean, I had a whole load and everything on, and I was just sliding down the highway. I got out and had to hang on to the dump truck because it was so slick out there. So I finally figured out that that’s what was going on, so I started sanding there and that helped. And there was another time that a lot of people were having—they called it the first railroad crossing past 300 Area, and we were told that there was people having a heck of a time making it out of that little hill. So anyway, I whipped around and started spraying the sand right down in front of them, and they just all started moving. Made me feel really good, like I did something right, you know? It’s always nice that you get appreciation from people like that. But it just gave you so much enjoyment, doing a lot of that stuff. Some people out there had a lot of that with some of the jobs they did. That’s one that I really liked. But I’d just get bored after a while and decide to jump into something. I got out of the road crew and ended up going into the warehouse that all the main stuff came in there and they got sorted by the storekeepers and stuff like that, and then it would be put—we’d put it on our truck. We’d have 28-foot trailers with side racks that would lift off, and we’d turn around and deliver it to the different places that we’d go to. I was delivering to 200 West for about, I think it was about six years—16 years. 16 years, I did that. Franklin: Oh, wow. And that’s where you got your CDL? Armstrong: I actually had to get it—I think that’s where I got it from, yeah. Franklin: How was that? How was the warehouse work? Armstrong: It was okay. We would load up—well, they came up with the idea that they all needed water out there in the Project. I never agreed with that. But they would say that some of the pipes were rusty and all this kind of stuff. And they’ve got all kinds of filter plants out there and all this. We took a tour, the wife and I, and the guy went by with our bus, and he was saying, well, they’re building a filtration water plant here. I says, oh, is that for the water, so you don’t have to buy bottled water? And he says, no, it’s for something else. And I thought—there was one trailer that specifically started that, years ago. The big 5-gallon—and they’re heavy. The thing is you’d take a pallet or two out to somewhere and deliver it to them. Well, people were having to lift them and put them on top of their little cooler things. But it gave us a job. We did a lot of janitorial supplies out there in the Area. Paper. You name it. I had a combination of steel and some of the paper goods and stuff for different trailers and stuff like that. I enjoyed the big part of that. I had a lot of people that, when I was gone, they were glad I got back. There’s several drivers that had that same situation. When I retired—there’s a lot of people that still call me. And say, you know how this is, you know how that is. And I say, yeah, but I can’t help that; I’m retired. [LAUGHTER] But I tried to make friends with people that I worked with and stuff like that. I enjoyed most of it, I really did. But I’m finally got it through my head that 39 years was enough and that was it. Franklin: Okay. Yeah. How did—did working out there change when Hanford stopped production and kind of moved—the Tri-Party Agreement was signed and moved into clean up? Did that affect your job in any significant way? Armstrong: No, not really. The machine shops were still going out there. We’d haul steel out there. The real—in fact, my brother ended up—he was a machinist and he worked there at 2-West at 272-W. He was given the job to set up in 300 Area that used to have a machine shop down there and set it back up with him and another guy. They did a lot of machine work down there. A lot of it. So it really didn’t change too much. There was always special things that had to be made. And I was amazed—I would go into the shop to make my delivery where he worked, and I was really amazed some of the things they can make. It just took me—I couldn’t believe it. There was different things that he could do that I couldn’t even think of doing. But then, of course, he probably couldn’t jump in the truck and deliver like I do, either. But the thing is, you see so much that other people do. I would go into PFP, where the Plutonium Finishing Plant was, and they would check me up and down and everything else. And I’d meet the storekeepers that would take the material as I went into the area there. And it was just so much that you had to be an in-between, between the warehouse and the people that you were delivering to. The thing is is I enjoyed that part. I always have enjoyed that part. So it’s just like the buses, the same thing. It was so much fun. I was glad I got out of it before they shut everything down, because all those drivers that didn’t have seniority went out to the Area. That was extra driving and all that kind of stuff. They took all that away, because they used to be able to get a certain amount of money toward the fuel that they were having to drive out to the area but they took all that away. I can’t remember what they called that, but it was some extra money that they were getting, and then they took it away. Franklin: For folks that have to drive out there? Armstrong: Yeah. Franklin: Like a mileage cost. Armstrong: Oh, yeah. And the thing is, one time—well, since we all got moved down—I got moved down to the warehouse, the guys out in the Area would need to call some drivers to drive out there and get some of the salt on the sidewalks and stuff like that. They were wanting us to get in our private rig and drive from the warehouse, or from where our house was, all the way out there. And I decided after the first time I went out there, I says, no, I’m not going to accept that. Because if I get stuck out there, they’re not going to pay me anyway, and I’m going to have to pay for a wrecker to get me out. So there was no real consideration, you know, for the person that was going out of their way to do their job. But if they turned around and have a government rig sitting there, and I got in it, I’d get paid. So your private rig, whole different ball game. Franklin: Right. Armstrong: I think they’ve taken a lot away from some of the people out there. And the machine shop, I think it’s gone out there. They moved it over to Pasco, and all the guys with it. So there’s a lot of changes. But maybe they didn’t need it, that’s the whole thing. But so many things have changed. The wife and I took a couple of tours out there, and she really enjoyed it, because she’s from the other side of the mountains. So, this was all new for her. Of course, I could explain some things to her, but some things the narrator had to explain because so much of it’s just changed. Franklin: Which tour did you take? Armstrong: We took the B tour. Franklin: Okay. Armstrong: That was the best one I could tell her to do, because you get to see just about everything. In fact, the old bank down there at Hanford, I don’t know if it’s still there or not. I know they fenced it because people were going in there and taking things out of it, I guess, or whatever. But you used to be able to see the deer and the elk and all that stuff. Years ago, there was horses out there. They had it in their mind that they had to get rid of the horses because too many people were going down to the river and watching them. That happened. And that was bad, because I really enjoyed, when I had to run down through there, I could maybe see the horses. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Armstrong: But that’s when, even 100-F was even working. I was delivering to that one time. That was a long time ago. Then when they’d come out with saying that there were alligators or something. I think it come out here, about ten, 15 years ago, something like that. And I had no idea there was anything like that. The beagles were there, and, of course, they were down at 300 Area too. But I never knew that much about any of that stuff. I don’t know, I just thought I had a good time when I was there. Franklin: Oh, great. And so you said you retired after 39 years, so that would be— Armstrong: 2002. Franklin: 2002, okay. So, let me see here. We’ve covered a lot of my questions. Oh, we talked about JFK’s visit. Were you working on site when JFK came to visit the N Reactor? Armstrong: Actually, I was in the audience with everybody. Franklin: Oh, okay. Armstrong: I was out there at 100-N. Yeah. Franklin: And what do you remember about that day? Armstrong: Oh, I remember standing there and watching the helicopter coming across the Columbia River. And you know how you get that feeling, your hair standing up on end? And that’s about the way I felt, because it was so neat. I really liked the guy. It was just a neat experience that I went through. Franklin: Yeah. Armstrong: It was good. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work in any of your jobs. Armstrong: It—[SIGH] Well, there was one time that they actually brought the dog in, down there at the warehouse. And they would go through the packages, just walk the dog through there. They started doing that before I left. It was amazing what the dog could do. That’s what sort of blew me away. We had a picnic down near the pumping station there, North Richland there. There was a park down there. They had the dog there. And the guy took the clip from his pistol and stuck it out in the parking lot on top of a wheel. And that dog walked right over there and found it. Never saw him do it or nothing. And I thought, wow, that’s cool. So they were really emphasizing that, that you don’t want to bring anything on there. I asked the guy, I says, well, if I had a pistol in my pickup that I drive to work, would I be in trouble if you found it? And he said, well, it’s on our property, so you’d want not to have that. Well, there’s some people that do that. Anyways, it worked out, I went home that night and made sure I didn’t have anything under my seat. [LAUGHTER] But the thing is, some of the things that the average people don’t know that those dogs can do, and that’s what they relied on. There was one incident when I was driving out to 100-N, there was a guy named Cotton, he was a patrolman. He was charged with letting a van come through the barricade. Because there’s a lot of vehicles in the morning going through there. So anyway, I went from 100-N over to 100-D and I noticed this van sitting off to the side of the road, like, there’s people over there trying to tie something down. And I went over to D and did something, came back, went to 100-N, went in and told the patrolman I saw a van sitting over there with some people tying something down to the roof. I said, they don’t look like they belonged here. So anyway, gave him my name and everything. Well, then I got a phone call. They charged their own patrolman with letting them through. They had no proof of it. It was really sort of funny, and I hope I don’t get in any trouble with this, but it’s a long time ago. But the thing is, I went down to the Federal Building and they had a hearing with Cotton. They had me as a witness. They said, well, which way would you have thought that van would’ve come in, the Yakima Barricade or the Wye Barricade? I says, I have no idea. I said, I don’t know. I know it was aimed towards 100-D, but I don’t know which way they could’ve come in. So anyway, these guys were bringing charges against Cotton and they said, well, you’ve got to say that he was the one that did it. Well, no, I can’t say that. So anyway, we went to take a break, and those guys that were in the Federal Building, they had their badges like here. Or no, they pulled them out of their pocket and put them on them when they went through the security thing. And I said, why aren’t they wearing them all the time? That’s what we have to do when we’re delivering mail or whatever. And the union person that was defending Cotton said, don’t say anything. We’re doing fine. [LAUGHTER] I says, well, that makes me mad. They have these ideas, but they don’t follow through on them. So—do as I do, not as I say, type-thing. It just gripes me to no end. But he got his job back. And he thanked me very much for that. He says, you stood up for me. He says, they were going to can me. And he was old enough to retire, but he just didn’t want to retire. So, he’s probably gone now, but I felt good that I was able to help save his job. Franklin: Any idea what the people in the van were doing? Did that ever come up? Armstrong: I think they got through and somebody just didn’t do their job. That’s all it was. Plain and simple. Sometimes, they would pull you off to the side and just go through your whole rig. You would never know what was going to happen. It didn’t matter if I went through there two or three times a day. They would still check you out. And that was just their job. If you went out there to Dash-5—sometimes I would have an escort that had to ride with me just to go inside the gate. Probably no further than from here to the parking lot. And then I’d turn around and get it unloaded and then head back to town. But you just never know. And that’s what they have to go for, you know, just to be able to check you, you have no idea they’re going to check you. Franklin: Sure, I mean, that’s the whole concept behind randomized screening is that it makes everybody want to play by the rules, right? You never know if you’ll be the one who gets checked. So what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Armstrong: Well, I don’t know. I didn’t get too bad in what I did, but I’ve had a little bit of cancer on my nose and a few things. I’m going down to a Jewish hospital in Denver every two years. I’m beryllium sensitive. That just allows me to be able to go—I pay for it, they reimburse me. So far, I’m in pretty decent health. And I’m 75 years old. I never thought I’d live that long, but you never know. [LAUGHTER] But, no, it’s a good-paying job. I can’t complain at it. They did some benefits and stuff that they changed and stuff that before I retired, I had 15 weeks of vacation that I was able to stack up. I got up to 20 weeks of severance pay, which made a pretty good little pot when I retired, so that helped me a little bit. And I don’t know if those benefits keep going with some of the people that are working out there now. I know a lot of jobs have went away and stuff like that. I’m just glad I got into it and did what I did and had a good time doing it. Made a lot of friends. So that was pretty good for me as far as I was concerned. Franklin: Okay. Great, well, thank you so much, Jack. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down and talk to us today. Armstrong: Glad to. Franklin: Okay. Awesome. Armstrong: Thank you. Franklin: Yeah, thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/FvH0d5gUtQ0">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 272-W PUREX 100-N 706 Building 1100 Building 1170 Building 300 Area 200 West PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 100-F 100-D Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1961-2012 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Armstrong Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Civil defense Civil defense drills Description An account of the resource Jack Armstrong moved to Richland, Washington as a child in 1944 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1961-2002. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/30/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F16450808db71ebd15ff4719aa6166c13.jpg 5d674811c65a8a6774d6ad3f0d6732a8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff798812af5c01fa8ae4b5e77009e7866.mp4 1f2059d9037ef1939104d60bc7095846 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Cline Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Cline conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2e8c0afcc728d3fa1969f50a0d817c07.jpg 241b3581b4824ce1fee07a65245d921a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F00a4b4d870d07017259caa950d80b7df.mp4 4dbea9a206df1a8666e32125a22ff250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Collins Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jack Collins: Now did you hear of people like—names like Alex Parks and some of those that helped sue the government? He was very—he was state legislature, I believe at one time. Robert Bauman: Yeah— Collins: From Grandview. Bauman: I knew about the Wiehls— Collins: Or Prosser? Bauman: Dick Wiehl’s. Collins: That had the ferry? Bauman: Yeah. I talked to Dick Wiehl. Collins: Yeah. Bauman: That was one. Collins: Ida Mae was in my class at school— Bauman: Oh really? Oh, there you go. Collins: We used to walk her down the river where her dad would pick her up and roll her across the river to where the original town of White Bluffs was. Bauman: Oh, sure, yeah. Collins: And he had—my grandparents lived in Old Town. They had a house in Old Town there before it moved up to the newer area. And spent a lot of time in Old Town. Bauman: I think we’re just about ready. Collins: Okay. Bauman: So we’ll get started here in just a minute. And then— Collins: Yeah. And another thing, are you aware of the Mormons coming out there, when the Mormon Church bought it? Bauman: Yeah. Collins: Okay. Did they tell you the story about the guy that brought his John Deere tractor and a four wheel trailer out from Utah? All the way out from Utah and brought all of his stuff— Bauman: No. Collins: And set it down on the black sandbar? Bauman: No, no, I haven’t heard— Collins: That was quite a story. Can you imagine the time it took him to drive out with a John Deere tractor? Bauman: That would—no, I can’t imagine. [LAUGHTER] Collins: [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Are we good to go? Man: Yeah, yeah. Bauman. All right, we’re good to get started. So, the first thing I’ll have you do is just say your name and spell your last name for us. Collins: I’m Jack Collins, C-O-L-L-I-N-S. Bauman: Okay, great. And my name is Robert Bauman and today is August 4th of 2015. And we are recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So first of all, welcome, and thanks for coming all this way out here-- [LAUGHTER] Collins: I’m glad to— Bauman: --for this interview. Collins: I’m glad to be here. Bauman: Great. I wonder if we could just start by maybe talking about your family and what brought them to White Bluffs, when they came, and that sort of— Collins: We came to White Bluffs in the middle of the Depression. [LAUGHTER] And we didn’t have much. And my grandfather had moved there ahead of us, lived in Old Town. And he wrote my folks and told them that there was work there. Farm work and stuff. My dad was a good mechanic. And he went to White Bluffs, so we had work. We bought a little farm, ten acre farm, in White Bluffs. And he worked for farmers for years around there. And then when Sam Allard needed a person to help out up at the county pumping plant, he had met my father—I don’t know how they met, but maybe through Joe Grewell that run the Priest Rapids power plant. But they asked my dad to come up and they liked him very well, because his dad had had a blacksmith’s shop. And my dad knew how to do things, how to make stuff, how to forge, weld, how to do all this type stuff. And they had a lot of machine work that they had to do in the plant in those days. And it was all handwork. They had to hone thrust bearings. We used to go down as kids and help him hone thrust bearings, because it was fun! Sit out on the porch at the county pumping plant. We used to run the chain hoist lifting those big pumps out. There was two 500s and a 750 horse power pump. They were all raw sewer pumps that the water district had bought from Chicago or somewhere back there. They didn’t use them, and they were for sale and that’s how they got the— This is--I wasn’t there when this happened, this is the story that I always got. They did that, and then they had their own power plant—the Priest Rapids power plant. So my father got out there and worked and Sam taught him all the stuff about the plant. And finally my dad ended up as head operator there, running it. He worked there for a number of years. We lived in the house up above the plant. We owned a farm down below the plant, downriver from the plant. We had a 35 acre farm the government took away from us. And then they kept my dad on after the government took over to pump water for all the construction in the water districts. So we had—us and the Potter family, Jack Potter, and his son Jackie, and the three boys of us, Ted and myself and Ray, were the only kids living in the restricted area. We lived at Coyote. And Mom—they hired Mom to haul us down to school every day during school. That was after White Bluffs School had burned and we started going to Hanford. It was 16 miles. So we did that for a number of years. Then the government finally, when the government finished and they were ready to start operating the plants, they had us move out. We moved to Zillah, Washington. And then we saw a lot of stuff in there, what the government did to those people was—was not good. They took their property, and a few people like Alex Parks and some other influential farmers in there took them to court because the government took the property without buying the water rights or any of that stuff. And the people there owned the Priest Rapids power plant, the power lines going to the county pumping plant. And they owned all the canals, the pipelines, head boxes, risers, you can name everything for the water district. A lot of stuff. That was about, probably 20 miles of canals, concrete canal. The government just assumed that. And it took over three years in court to get the government to pay for that. And they just forced the people out with—my folks had very little money when they left there. We lost our farm, we had two farms, we had one down in White Bluffs, we had one up at Coyote, up by Allard’s pumping plant was. And then me and my two brothers, we were the ones that were going all over the area out there, selling food to the guys coming out there in the area. All they’d get is peanut butter sandwiches coming out of the mess halls downtown there in Hanford. And those guys, trying to eat peanut butter sandwiches and water in hundred and some degree weather—we’d end up out there with egg sandwiches, candy bars, pop, coffee-- [LAUGHTER] and sell it to these guys. So we got to be their friends, so they hauled us all over the area with their construction equipment. We rode construction trains, the engineers all knew us. They were all buying this stuff from us. So we made a lot of money. We put it all in war bonds. I cashed my war bonds to marry my wife. That was my money that I had when I married her. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: That’s great. Collins: And it was a fun life out there. And we—in the summer, we just stripped down to just nothing but a bathing suit and our bare feet, and we was all over the country out there, just in the bare feet in the desert out there. We were pretty tough kids in those days. [LAUGHTER] Swim in the river, and swim in the canal. And there was a lot of parties went on down at Black Sand bar. Community parties, we had a lot of fun at those. Everybody would meet down there for big swimming parties and picnics and stuff. And then Table Mountain, now where the stuff is all stored—I don’t know whether you’ve heard about Table Mountain where they dug and they put the— Bauman: Yup, yup. Collins: Okay. We used to have our church picnics on top of Table Mountain. And used to go out, and we used to follow the sheep herds and stuff that went through there, and get all the bum lambs and stuff. We had quite a herd of sheep that we got from—we had no place to take them. We had to sell them when the government took over. We had cattle and sheep and everything. And they forced us to sell all of that stuff. We got not much out of it. But that’s the way the government operates. I got like twelve other stories, a lot of stories that I heard from some of the old timers, how they used to fish for sturgeon. They used to throw like a head of lettuce on a big hook out in the Columbia River. Bauman: Really? Yeah. Collins: Or a part of a chicken. And they’re bottom feeders, and they had quarter inch rope hooked to those. And they’d take the horses and pull them out, they were so big. Bauman: Wow. Collins: And that’s the—the old timers used to do that. Then we used to go to the—one of our trips at school was to go out to the Indian smokehouses, where they were smoking fish and stuff. The Priest Rapids Indians. That was quite a trip! And we were very familiar with them. And then my dad, when he worked up at the Priest Rapids power plant, when the put the new channel in to channel water into it, my dad worked on that, on running a jackhammer. That was before he went to work at Coyote. And we would go up there when they were going to have their blasts, and watch them blow that rock up. It was big time! They were drilling that basalt up there, and boy that was really a blast when they set all that rock off. Bauman: Wow. Collins: And we’d see the Priest Rapids Indian kids, they would be in their steam house getting all hot and everything, and they’d come out of the steam house and go jump in the river, naked! [LAUGHTER] Tough little kids! But I don’t know where they—they didn’t go to school with us. I think they were self-taught up there. But they were very healthy. Bauman: So, I’m going to go ask you a couple questions, kinda go back a little bit. You mentioned that your grandfather lived at White Bluffs before you moved there? Collins: He lived in Old White Bluffs. Bauman: Lived in Old White Bluffs. Collins: Yeah. Bauman: And what was his name? Collins: Lyons. Bauman: Oh, his last name was Lyons? Collins: Lyons, yeah. [LAUGHTER] What was Grandpa’s name? Woman: Alva. Collins: Alva Edward Lyons. Bauman: Okay, okay. Collins: Him and my grandmother, and they’re the ones that taught us. And they had two children that lived with them, they were my mother’s parents. Bauman: Okay. And how old were you then when your family moved to White Bluffs? Collins: I was in the first grade of school. So that was about, what? ’37, ’38, somewhere along there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: And we were the last family moved out of Hanford when they opened—when they started the plant. Bauman: Right. And do you know how long you were there? Collins: I went to school—finished the seventh grade of school at Hanford. Bauman: Okay. And then you moved to— Collins: We moved to Zillah. Bauman: To Zillah. Okay. So what was the community of White Bluffs like? Collins: It was a very friendly community. Everybody got along. I could say we went down to—we had all kinds of community things there. There was nothing else to do. We had a movie theater. The guy that run the ice plant there in town, he put on a show about twice a year, and that was a big thing, going to the movie, down to his little old movie house. Oh, they had church doings and stuff there. And a lot of potlucks. They had a grange there, too, I believe, and a lot of potlucks at the grange. That’s about all there was to do there. But everybody was friendly. It was different. They all looked out for one another. And— Bauman: Now, you mentioned that you had a farm in White Bluffs and then one by the— Collins: Our first farm was a ten-acre one. It was close to the town of White Bluffs. Bauman: And what sort of crops did you have there? Collins: Oh, we—it was old ground, leaded-out ground. Bauman: Okay. Collins: It wasn’t great ground. But as kids we used to, there, we would cut asparagus and stuff. Take it uptown in our wagon, and pull it uptown. We only lived about a half a mile from town. Sell asparagus to the people in town, little bundles of asparagus. Then go to the drug store and buy candy with our money. That was our candy money. I’ve always worked, even as a kid, I’ve always worked. We picked fruit and all kinds of stuff. Bauman: And so you mentioned you went to school in White Bluffs, and then at some point the school burned? Collins: Yes, I went to school at White Bluffs ‘til the school burned. Bauman: Mm-hm, and then Hanford— Collins: Can I bring up a thing about the principal there? Bauman: Oh, sure, absolutely. Collins: She had—that’s the house that we got and they had—her husband run that horse ferry that pulled—I mean the cable ferry that pulled the—across the Columbia River. And she had a way of making the kids mind, she had a rubber hose and she’d take you down to the furnace room, and introduce them to a rubber hose. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Collins: My brother Ray got that one time. [LAUGHTER] And I was always good in school after I heard what happened there! [LAUGHTER] But we need more of that today. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So your family got to stay much longer than most other families after the Federal government came. Collins: We got to stay, we were the last family moved. Bauman: When we were talking before, you’d mentioned that you got notice around the time you had some apricots that were— Collins: Apricot trees, yeah. We were going to plant 15 or 16 acres of apricots on our place. We lost all of our deposit and everything. The government could’ve cared less. They just—we had to turn them back. They arrived the day that our place was condemned. Bauman: Wow. And so do you remember how long you got to stay there, like—a lot of people had to move out in ’43, early 1943— Collins: It was about— Bauman: How long, much longer did you-- Collins: A year and a half or two years. Bauman: Oh, okay. So that’s quite a while longer you had to stay. Collins: Yeah, all during construction, Dad pumped the water for the construction of the railroads and the roads and stuff. All the water trucks that came there. And he had pumps, pump it out of the canal, he was pumping in any water going on down. And they were using it for all the construction, the water he was pumping. Bauman: Okay. So he was very valuable to the— Collins: Yeah, they had—they wanted to move him to Richland and keep him on. My dad only went to fifth grade of school, but he was pretty knowledgeable. In those days, although they didn’t go very far. But they wanted to move on down, they’d give him a bunch of training and stuff. But he said, no, he says, I’m not going to take my boys to Richland. Because Richland was a pretty tough town in those days. And so we moved, he left the government job. He was making $150 a month for the water district. We got a house, our lights and water furnished. He worked seven 12s for them. And ‘round, all year long. In the wintertime, when they shut the plant down, they were working in the plant overhauling stuff. And then when the government took over, I think he went up to $1,200 a month. And he worked a 40 hour week. Bauman: Wow. Collins: I can bring up another thing about—They used to hone all the thrust bearings. There were big thrust bearings that these big pumps sat on. They were three stories high, and they were very heavy. They weighed tons. So they brought an engineer out there that was going to tell my dad how to do that. So he said they could do a better job machining them than he could do it by hand. He told them, no, they couldn’t. So this engineer, he was going to prove it. So he took one of them and did it. And they took, I think it was a 750 horse pump out of it, and they set it down on it, and he threw the switch. And you have to rock those switches in to bring those motors up to speed there. So big and so heavy that you can’t bring them up just once. This guy threw the switch on it, blew the windings out of this pump and stuff, and it cost the government a load of money to tear that pump apart and get it rewound. I don’t know that he lost his job or not, but they always believed my dad after that, because he knew how to start them. He never blew one up in years that he ran the plant. They’d never had that happen before. And so a lot of things happened there. They brought guys out that my dad had to teach how to run the plant. They had young college guys. And it was interesting. We used to go down once in a while. We’d sit in for Dad. They brought the power in that was 66,000 volts from up there, and they had to transform down to 2,200 for the pumps. And you had to check those transformers every day for temperature. And then you had to check all the bearings on the pumps and all that. You had to work. And then call the readings in on the gauges there to tell them how much power you were drawing and everything, so they’d know how much power to send from Priest Rapids down to the plant. Because that’s the only thing that they furnished power for. So you was always busy there. You had to know what you were doing. Bauman: Oh, yeah. Collins: So Dad taught us kids all how to do it. We didn’t have nothing else to do. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: You mentioned when people had to leave in 1943 that a lot of people went to court eventually. Do you have any idea how much money your parents got for your property? Collins: It was very little. We had enough to buy an old leaded-out ten-acre place out in Zillah. Bauman: And that was enough? Collins: But it wasn’t good. And it took them years, a lot of those people that they went out of there with, the older people, the widows and widwoers and stuff. They ended up in institutions. They had no family, they had no one. And the government just forced them out. They told them they’d come in with trucks and haul their stuff out if they didn’t leave. They’d haul them out of the area. Bauman: Wow. Collins: That’s the way they operated with us. We were a very fortunate family, the way we got out. And my father had a truck and he bought a lot of the stuff from those people and we took it out to the auction sales and stuff and sold it. And we’d load up watermelons. And take them to the end of the barracks, we’d buy overripe watermelons. Because they were good, they were good watermelons. And take them in and sell them to the barracks there. And they were very—those people down there were very happy to get nice, ripe watermelons. Because everyone else was selling them green ones, and we were selling them ripe ones. Bauman: Yeah, you were very enterprising. [LAUGHTER] Collins: Hey, we did anything to make money. We had to. Bauman: Sure. Collins: We didn’t have any. We picked lots of fruit, worked in warehouses, did all of that stuff. Oh yeah, and there was another thing, too, that came up. There was an old recluse lived down under the railroad station, under their deck out front. And he had been, and I think you have something about him—he had been a pharmacist, was the story. And he had given the wrong prescription and killed a lady. And he left pharmacy and just ended up a recluse there—I don’t—I’d seen him, I’d seen him in the stores and stuff, seen him wandering around town. But that’s all I know about him. Bauman: So when we were talking earlier, you also mentioned that at some point you ended up working at Hanford. Is that right? Collins: I worked for the telephone company. Bauman: For the telephone company. Collins: And Hanford was the area that I had. Bauman: Right. Collins: And I had a high security clearance to go out in the Hanford area and build a number of the offices out there. I built West Richland—or I didn’t build it, I was in charge of it—when that young fellow got killed, that was one of my projects. When he swung the crane into the powerline and killed him. That was one of my projects. Downtown Richland, I did a lot of work on that one. And Kennewick, I did a lot of work there on all the Kennewick offices. Bauman: So what time period was this, then, that you were working for the phone company? Collins: I was working, doing that—that was, oh, I was about 40-something years old, so it would have had to have been ’70, in there. Bauman: Okay. Collins: When they were building the offices out in the Hanford area. We didn’t have—our company did not have the Hanford area for the telephone offices—went out of, oh, down on the Columbia River had that. And we did their engineering and construction for them. They farmed it out to General Telephone at that time. That’s why it was out there building them. I drilled a lot of grounding wells out there, which—north of where Colonel Rockwell took over to watch what was happening underground. And they locked them up, but we never got to touch them again after we drilled them. They took the wells over. We could use them for grounding for offices, but we had to drill pretty deep because there’s no mineral in this ground here. It’s very poor grounding in this area. So. Bauman: Was it—did it feel strange at all, when you were doing that to be back out in that area working? Where you had lived for a while? Collins: I’d been out there, yes. I’m a pioneer resident. So we got to go on the trips when they took them out there. You used to come out to the White Bluffs-Hanford picnic here all the time. Bauman: Okay, right. Collins: And we went out to our old farm one time. We weren’t supposed to be there, but we did. [LAUGHTER] And they had burned everything down. Mysteriously, while we—before we left, we had a big barn full of stuff, stored full of stuff—that mysteriously burned. And no one else—no one out there but the people, the government people. Bauman: Yeah. Collins: And it was other stuff happened out there. The house that we lived in out there got burned. When we were there, we saw the foundation of it and a bunch of ashes. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, talking about White Bluffs community, who were some of the families that you knew well growing up, or some of your friends when you were— Collins: We knew Alex Parks. Oh, jiminy. I just can’t remember all the names now. It’s— Bauman: That’s okay. Collins: But he was a very close friend of my folks’, very influential when they had the lawsuit. Russ Webert. Bauman: Okay. Collins: Heck, can’t remember anymore. Bauman: That’s all right. Collins: Somewhere, I’ve got all the school pictures and stuff, too. I’m trying to get them back, of all the years I was in school down there. If you’d want those for your museum, I’m trying to get them back now. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: I may have to go to court to get them, I don’t know at this point. Bauman: Wow. The other thing, when we were talking earlier that you had a picture of the school bus— Collins: Yes. Bauman: That you, that you rode. Collins: That was the school bus that we rode from there to the Hanford School. Bauman: Right, after the White Bluffs School burned down. Collins: And my uncle drove it, and we had a lot of—[LAUGHTER] Bauman: Looked like a pretty small school bus. How many kids rode in that, do you remember? Collins: [SIGH] There was probably five or six of us on it. It would hold a few more than that, but there just wasn’t any more kids up there. Bauman: Yeah. Collins: Yeah. Bauman: And so how long did you go to school in Hanford, then? Collins: I went to school in Hanford for two years. Bauman: Two years, okay. Collins: We were on the double shifting when we went to Hanford. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: You know what—we were on the morning shift, we went in the morning, and then they had a night shift. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: We were on the morning shift. We didn’t get to learn too much at Hanford. It was tough when went to another school all day. I had a lot of catching up to do! Bauman: And how long did that take to ride out there? Collins: Well, it was about 16 miles. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: To our place, and then the bus went on farther, so--probably another eight miles. Bauman: Pretty good ride. Collins: Oh, yeah. Then after the government took over, then my mother would haul us. The government hired her to haul us. Because it was just us three kids and Jackie Potter. Four of us. And she would haul us in that old ’36 Ford. Haul us to school every day, and two round trips a day, every day. Bauman: Wow. Collins: So it was cheaper than them owning a bus and stuff. So they didn’t get a lot out of it, but it was better for us. Bauman: So by the time you and your family left, pretty much everyone else was gone, all the other residents of White Bluffs. Had the government already torn down a lot of the buildings at the other farms and places by the time you left? Collins: Oh, yeah, they just went in and wiped the place out. They didn’t give a darn about anything that was in there. And then after we moved out and I got older, my brother and I went in and bought a lot of that stuff. We bought all the poles and the powerline between the Coyote pumping plant and Priest Rapids. We bought all those there around Sunnyside. And then the racetrack, we got most of those poles for the lighting and everything there—the poles around the racetrack. And then we bought a lot of those Quonset huts in there. Tore down a lot of those Quonsets. I saw pictures of them on some of your stuff, you know, the fish hatchery and stuff? Bauman: Mm-hm. Collins: We tore that old fish hatchery down, my brother and I did. Bauman: Really? Collins: And hauled that all out of there and sold them to farmers in the valley for shelters for their pigs and cattle and stuff. And we bought a lot of stuff in Hanford there, him and I did. I worked for him, and we hauled a lot of stuff out of Hanford when they were tearing it down. Bauman: Mm-hm. Collins: And that was kinda interesting. One time we were in tearing the fish hatchery down, and he picked up a bucket and said it was radioactive. And we mentioned it to the guard there, and I didn’t see him all day. They took him and he was gone. And boy, he said they run him through any test you can imagine. Because we didn’t work for the government, we were bidding on stuff and buying stuff in there. But that was quite an interesting experience, too. We got to see all those fish hatcheries, those big fish in those tanks that they were testing radioactivity on. And then I had a lot of friends that worked out there, like Jack Potter. I don’t know whether you ever—his dad was the mayor of Hanford at one time. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: And he’s told me stories about running dozers in those pits out there. And how dangerous it was, him and some other people were telling me about it. How they saw people get sickened out there. They’re all gone now. They were a lot older than I was. But friends of my family. Bauman: I was going to ask you, the pumping station that your dad operated, how big of an area did that serve? Collins: That served everything from Coyote down to Hanford and all the Hanford area. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: White Bluffs, Hanford, about—I don’t know—16 or 20 miles of canal that it served. It was a big area. Bauman: Yeah, it is. Collins: All those farms that it pumped. And a few farms pumped out of the river. They had pumps on the river. Now my grandfather run a farm for an outfit there. And they had a pump. It was just right below the black sandbar—or above the black sandbar, I mean, on the river. And my grandfather run that for a few years. And they pumped out of the river for that. A few people did. But most of them were from the Coyote pumping plant for water. Bauman: Yeah, that’s a lot of farms that it served. Collins: Hundreds of acres. Bauman: Yeah. Collins: Beautiful farms. Everything there was two weeks ahead of everywhere else in the country. So the fruit all got on the fresh fruit market. And it was—they got really a high premium price out of it. And they had their own packing houses there. There’s a railroad that come in, they trucked stuff out of there. And a lot of stuff went on there. Bauman: Yeah, yeah. Collins: But we used to go down—I used to lid and make boxes and stuff in those warehouses for Alex Parks. We worked for him all summer long. Just when we were little kids! But all the kids there worked. Every kid that lived there worked. They aren’t like today. [LAUGHTER] We were busy! [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Right, yeah. So you were, what, about fifth grade when people started leaving? Collins: I started first grade at White Bluffs— Bauman: When you first came, yeah, but-- Collins: And I went to the fifth grade there, no, sixth and seventh at Hanford. Bauman: But when people started having to leave because the Federal government was coming in, do you remember your, or your family’s reaction to that? As people were leaving, and what you thought about that? Collins: It was complete shock to everybody when that happened. A car drove up to your house with guys in it, and they told you your property was condemned, you’d have to leave within two weeks, I think it was. You know, how shocked would you be if they’d do something like that to you? Bauman: Yeah. Collins: Or, if you didn’t leave, they’d bring in military people with trucks, and they’d haul you out of the area. And I was just a young kid then, but I can remember that, you know. Bauman: Sure. Collins: And it wasn’t good. Bauman: Right. Yeah, do you remember seeing the trucks come into the area? Collins: Never saw that, no. Bauman: No? Collins: Most of them got out. It’s all they could do. Bauman: So what would you like people to know about White Bluffs—because it’s not there anymore and hasn’t been for a long time—what should people-- Collins: It was a beautiful area. It was a great place for kids to grow up. Because we learned how to work. Practically everyone that came out of there was successful. My brother Ted was a car dealer, now he’s a farmer. Ray is—I gave you the information on him—is very successful. He was an officer in the military and flew training planes for the, where they shot at him with those big howitzers and stuff. Yeah, it was his job flying those planes off from the ground. He’s got bad hearing now from those howitzers going off behind him. Wrecked his hearing. Anyway, he went and got a lot of training from the military in radio. And then he got into it, and now he’s—from the letter I gave you there—he’s very influential in the electronics industry. He’s getting a very large award, he’ll be in the history books with Edison and all those people for his contribution to the electrical—you know, the radio industry. He’s invented a lot of radio stuff. I was in construction. I was construction superintendent, worked my way up to an engineer in construction. We’re all non-college-graduated. We all learned it on our own. And in the service, I had a lot of electronics school in the service, too. I went through all that in the Airforce. And got out and started studying. And I did go to college some after I was older and working. But I built a lot of projects. I built projects here, which I was telling you about. I was in charge of all of them. My area at that time was eastern Washington, Idaho, and Montana for the telephone company, over all their construction projects and building construction. So we all— Bauman: Are there any other memories about White Bluffs, or stories that you remember well that we haven’t talked about yet or you haven’t shared yet? Collins: [LAUGHTER] There’s so many— Bauman: That you can— Collins: --things that I can just go on. It was just a very great community, as far as we were concerned. They moved a bunch of—the Mormons came in, they shipped a lot of them up here. They were on—the Mormon Church was supporting them in Utah, was my understanding. So they bought these farms for them. Boy, they were ornery kids. [LAUGHTER] We used to fight with them all the time. Bauman: Oh, you know, you mentioned—I was going to ask you—you mentioned, your grandfather, the place he bought was one that had been for World War I initially, is that right? Collins: That was the one my father bought. Bauman: Oh, the one your father—okay. Collins: Yeah, the ten acres. There’s a lot of those war veterans—I don’t know what happened to it. There’s a lot of that property available. And you have the listing of what they were talking about, on how you could buy cheap property? And my folks got in there and they was able to buy a little ten acre farm. Bauman: Okay. Collins: I don’t know how much Dad paid for it, but it wasn’t a lot at the time. And they house hadn’t been lived in for a long time. And we fixed that up to live in. He had a barn on the place. And we lived there and worked and folks worked on the house. It was a small house. But we were close to the school, we walked to school, there was no school buses then. Bauman: Right. Collins: So we all walked to school. And then he got the chance to go up to Coyote pumping plant. And that’s the first time we was able to have—my folks went to town and they bought an electric stove and a refrigerator. And that was a big deal! We’d never had that before. We were not a wealthy family. We were lucky to have an icebox. And a wood stove, and all of this stuff. And we didn’t even have running water in the house when we bought it. We had a pump on a well out the back door. And that was even big time to us, them days. It was better than what we had before. And then when we got up to Coyote, up there, then we had all the conveniences. We had electricity, and we had— Bauman: Running water? Collins: --hot water in the house— Bauman: Did you have a telephone? Collins: Huh? Bauman: Was there a telephone? Collins: Telephone. Bauman: Wow. Collins: Crank telephone. And everybody listened in. He’d crank it and everybody else’s phone would ring, and you knew what was going on in the whole neighborhood. Because everybody was on the phone, the whole neighborhood. Because they could hear you. And if you wanted to go long distance, the drug store downtown, they had some equipment down there where they could—if you wanted to make a long distance call, you had to ring the operator down there and have her connect you with where you were going at that time. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: If you wanted to call out of the area. And it was one of these old ones where they had it on fence posts or whatever they could anchor the wire to, you know. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty crude, boxes with the telephone equipment in it. Wooden boxes. [LAUGHTER] It wasn’t—but people did it. They survived. And we had an icehouse there in town—I can’t remember the name of the people. They made ice for the railroad. And you’d get ice there for your iceboxes. They were friends of my folks, but I can’t remember their name. And they had a son that lived down here. I knew him quite well, but I can’t remember him now. Bauman: Yeah, the other thing I meant to ask you was, where did you move from? Where did your family come from before they came to White Bluffs? Collins: Well, I was born in Zillah. Bauman: Oh, okay. Collins: And then we—it was during the Depression—I was born in 1930, and those were tough times. I don’t remember much about it, but I remember my folks telling me about it. We moved around in the valley doing different work where my dad could find work. He would get maybe a dollar and a half a day. That was wages then. If you was lucky! And then when he found out we could get work in Hanford—or in White Bluffs, we moved there. Because you could work for farmers and stuff, and you could get all of your stuff, you know, all your fruit. We canned all of our own fruit. We canned everything. Asparagus. We had—Mom canned everything. We lived on that. [LAUGHTER] And we probably lived better than a lot of other people. Because we were resourceful. We had a big garden. We raised a lot of stuff. We even raised peanuts here one year! Bauman: Really? Collins: Yeah! Bauman: Huh. Collins: The ground was that good. It was sandy and hot. And raised hay and started getting cattle—cows. Had milk cows, and we had all of that stuff. We had all of our meat. During rationing times, we butchered all of our own meat. We didn’t have to worry about rationing, because we had it. [LAUGHTER] So we lived pretty good. We didn’t have any money. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Yeah. But you had the farm and resources. Collins: We had the farm, and we had food. And that was a big thing during Depression, if you had that— Bauman: Right. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming today, all the way out here. [LAUGHTER] Collins: Well, I hope I’ve done you some good, I don’t know— Bauman: Oh, this is really interesting stuff. I haven’t been able to interview very many people who lived out at White Bluffs, so— Collins: Oh, well, I’m 84 years old, and I was just a little kid! [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Collins: But I do remember a lot of that stuff. And I talked to both of my brothers. And Ray wanted me to show you that, to show how some of the people came out of there successfully, you know? Bauman: Sure, right, right. Collins: And I’m sure there’s a lot of others. I’m sure we weren’t alone. Bauman: Now where were you age-wise among the brothers? Collins: I’m the middle one. Bauman: You’re the middle one. Okay. Collins: I’m the middle one, yeah. Bauman: Okay. Collins: Ted is older and Ray is younger. Bauman: Okay. All right. And so after you moved to Zillah, what did you do from there? Collins: From Zillah? Bauman: Yeah, after you left White Bluffs and you— Collins: Went back to Zillah? Bauman: You went back to Zillah and— Collins: We went to school there, finished school there. And then I worked some for the telephone company. I worked around different jobs, farm jobs and stuff like that. And then I married my wife. And we couldn’t—I worked for Western Electric then, putting in the new telephones off of Yakima. And they laid all of us off, they laid I think 1,200 or 1,500 people off in one shot. So I had an electronics background and everything, but they only kept very, very selected few. I wasn’t one of them. And I didn’t have a job and I—doing some other stuff around there. And I wasn’t making any money, so I moved to the coast. I went to work at Boeing. [LAUGHTER] And I didn’t like Boeing. It was known as the Lazy B, and that’s what it was at that time. The people just—they didn’t know how to work. They drove me crazy. I didn’t have enough work to do, I couldn’t find enough work to do. We had one guy in our area that was supposed to be the biggest producer. He’d come in and we had to stamp our work. I was in quality control there and we had to stamp our work when we inspected things. I inspected on Airforce One, on the wings of that. And this guy, he would come in and check in, and the mail girl was his girlfriend. And they’d check in, he’d give his stamp to one of the mechanics, and the two of them would leave for the day. Come and check out at night. They were high producers because their stuff was just getting shoved through. And he was a buddy of our supervisor, so me and the supervisor didn’t get along. And then when he asked me to come and mow his lawn on the weekend, and I—I explained to him I didn’t do things like that. I had a family, I had four children at the time. And I wasn’t about to mow somebody’s lawn on the weekend and take care of them rather than take care of my family. I don’t care if he was my supervisor. I didn’t like him. So that was my, about the end of my job at Boeing. Then I went into construction work. Bauman: Right. Collins: Where I did well. Bauman: Well, again, I want to thank you very much for coming today and sharing stories about White Bluffs and your father’s work at the pumping plant and all that. It’s really interesting. Collins: We were supposed to someday—I was supposed to get that land back. But I don’t think that will ever happen. Bauman: Mm, mm-hm. Collins: I would love to have our property on the Columbia River. God, it was a beautiful piece of property. Bauman: Oh, yeah, I bet. Collins: All that, Coyote Rapids there. And we were going to buy Delia Allard’s place, down the river—Sam Allard’s first wife. He was married twice. I don’t know what the reasoning was. She lived down there with her son-in-law, I think it was her son-in-law. And I don’t know the whole deal there. And we were buying their farm, too, which they had a beautiful home that they built down there. Rock home, and we wanted that. But Dad was negotiating for that when the government took our land away from us, so that was gone. So—[LAUGHTER] Anyway. Bauman: Well, thank you very much, I really appreciate it. Collins: Yeah. Bauman: This has been really interesting and very helpful. Thank you. Collins: Well, I hope I don’t get myself in any trouble with some of this stuff I talked about. Bauman: Oh, not too much. [LAUGHTER] Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data mp4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:45:51 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1937-1943 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Dick Wiehl Ida Mae Alex Parks Ray Collins Alex Parks Jack Potter Delia Allard Sam Allard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Collins Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Collins conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08-04-2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-13-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Boeing General Telephone Hanford Kennewick Mountain Park Parks Quonset hut Quonset huts River Running School Sun swimming War Western Electric https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6728e02b345beccd4eb7557299128682.jpg 4831b26e1991b658b856e435ac2cc04f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcb200b6bdd2f570456b129758b5fce90.mp4 2f6e8c505ddbeb2ded71195d822875bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Fix Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Fix conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd9b5b13dffbede93df7368c37e2ebad4.JPG 54583d7039ab0df30eab83cbf73dff85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Fix Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready, Jack? Jack Fix: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jack Fix on March 30, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jack about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Fix: Well, my full name is John James Fix. That’s J-O-H-N. J-A-M-E-S. And then F-I-X. Franklin: Okay. Great. But you prefer to go by Jack, correct? Fix: Yes. My dad’s name was John, so I’m a Jack. Franklin: Okay, to alleviate confusion? Fix: Yeah. Franklin: Right, okay. Great. Well, tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site. Fix: Well, I first came here as part of a—well, as a little bit of background, I was very fortunate to get a—when I graduated out of college, I was extremely fortunate to receive one of the Atomic Energy Commission fellowships. So I had to take the Graduate Record Exam advanced test, which I took in physics, and then get three professors—they willingly sent in these letters. Just remarkably, it was a gift of a lifetime to receive one of these fellowships. As part of that fellowship, there were various institutions throughout the United States that supported these fellowships. In the Northwest, the only one was University of Washington. Oregon State didn’t have it at that time, or I would’ve gone there. But anyway, I went to University of Washington and sat—in the summer after I finished my first year of grad school, we had to go to a national lab. And I chose Hanford. So I came here as a summer, I guess, intern, if you would call it that, in 1969. Franklin: And why did you choose Hanford? Fix: Well, because I was born and raised in Pendleton, Oregon and that was close to home. And, you know, there were lots of reasons to stay as close to home as you could if you didn’t have a lot of money. That’s also why I chose University of Washington, because it was the closest university to Pendleton, basically. Franklin: Okay. And what did this AEC fellowship cover? Fix: Well, it covered everything. They paid—it was a full ride fellowship. They paid all your tuition, they gave you a stipend. I mean, it was really a—it’s hard to imagine how much of a gift that really was. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I bet. And this was for graduate school. Fix: That was for graduate school, right. This is called the Atomic Energy Commission fellowships, and they were certainly very valuable. Franklin: Right, I bet that looks pretty good, too, on a CV after graduating. Fix: Well, yeah, except intriguingly, most people don’t realize, but after the United States landed a person on the moon, they didn’t have that need for all those high PhD physicists anymore, so many of those people got laid off and they all went back and were retraining into like medical radiation physics and things, which is actually where I got my degree, is in medical radiation physics. So things ebb and flow. So when I graduated with my master’s degree in medical radiation physics, it was still very challenging to get a position. I was fortunate that I had worked two years at the University of Washington as a— You know, I don’t want to get too detailed here, but my graduating class from college was the first graduating class that would no longer have student deferments for graduate school because of the Vietnam War. Those were all—that was the very first year. So it affected many people. And then later they introduced the lottery system. So I had a low number. So I actually had to stop my graduate studies. And I was very lucky to get a position at the University of Washington, because I was going to be drafted. There was really no opportunity for me to go into the service to get more training or what-have-you. So anyway, it was just a point of history that affected a lot of people. I don’t know how many people, and I don’t know how many people are familiar with that. Hopefully it’s never repeated. Franklin: Yeah, that would be nice. Is medical radiation physics similar to health physics? Fix: Yeah, it’s very—it’s excellent, yeah, medical is really all part of radiological sciences. It all deals with radiation, it all deals with—radiological science is actually a very broad field, really. It can go from, you know, cosmic radiation to what heats the core of the Earth, to the various types of uses of medical isotopes in medicine. So it’s a very broad field. Franklin: Sure, sure. What did you do that first time at Hanford Lab in the late ‘60s? Fix: Well, in ’69, when I was here as an intern? We, first of all, there was dedicated people on the staff here that supported things, so we had a lead scientist that I reported to. Actually, I reported to Ron Kathren, who many of the people know here locally. Franklin: I know Ron very well. Fix: Yes. Well, Ron Kathren was my sponsor. He sponsored me and another student from the east—from the Tennessee area. So we did all various types of educational things, such as—I don’t recall now—but we did a little bit of work with tritium, as I recall. We were doing things with an area called thermoluminescent dosimetry, which is a little special types of salt crystals which will luminesce when they’re irradiated with different types of radiation. Franklin: Is that the type of stuff that’s in a scintillator? Is that what it’s called? Fix: Well, a scintillator—scintillation is used in like, sodium iodide detectors for radiation and that. It’s very similar. One’s luminescence and one’s scintillation. It’s both emitting light that’s counted by a photo tube and you can relate that to the amount of radiation and the type of radiation. But the right type-- Franklin: What was the—oh, sorry. Fix: Well, it just depends on the instrumentation, that’s all. Franklin: What’s the impetus to develop that type of counter? Fix: Well, you’re always trying to be able to do things more precisely, at greater sensitivity. So, there’s always been impetus to have better detectors, more sensitive, better resolution. It goes on even to the current time. That’s one reason why they maybe use liquid nitrogen to cool the crystals down, so that there’s less entrancing noise. So it all has to do with the improved capabilities. Franklin: Interesting. And what was tritium used for? Fix: Well, tritium is very widely used. First of all, it is an isotope of water. So tritium is extensively used, especially in medical research, because most/many organic molecules include tritium—include, not tritium, excuse me—include hydrogen. So you can have like tritiated label thymidine, all the different amino acids for the DNA. Many. There’s so many uses it’s hard to describe them all, in terms of medical research. Franklin: Okay. Would that be for like marking DNA so that it would be visible? Fix: Well, actually, if you wanted to label an organic compound that’s used in some type of, say, like a hormone or an enzyme that’s used in the body, you could potentially use this to label it. I mean, other nuclides that were widely used were iodine and carbon. There was many, many applications for these. Franklin: What was tritium being studied for at Hanford labs? Fix: Well, another use of hydrogen and tritium—I wouldn’t say that these were studied at Hanford labs, per se. I was taking that as a general question. At Hanford another significant use of tritium was in thermonuclear weapons. The fusion device utilizes tritium. As a matter of fact, all of our nuclear armaments to this day have to be maintained to keep the supply of the use of tritium in those devices, which has a half-life of about 12.5 years, to be adequate for their intended use. Franklin: Okay. And so what were you doing in regards to tritium? Fix: Well, we were, with Ron, we were just studying. I forget what we were doing now. I mean, it’s—this was 40 years ago. Franklin: Sure, sure. Fix: First of all, tritium is a relatively—one thing in the use of a student is, tritium is relatively non-hazardous. It’s a very low-emitting beta emitter. Very low. So it’s relatively—it’s not very hazardous. So if you’re teaching students, that might be attractive. It’s also easily available. And so. Franklin: You said easily available, so it was being produced at Hanford, then, for research use, or where did the tritium come from? Fix: Well, I’m not sure where the—certainly, there was a lot of tritium available at Hanford; there’s no question about that. Whether it was being purified and isolated for use by others, I’m not sure right now. I’d have to think about that. Franklin: Sure, sure, and— Fix: Tritium— Franklin: Oh, sorry. Fix: Undoubtedly, tritium was everywhere at Hanford, as you know. The groundwater plume has tritium in it. It was an isotope that’s widely available. Also, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the history of nuclear atmospheric testing and nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, but there was tritium all over the world caused by nuclear weapon testing in the atmosphere. Franklin: Right. And that’s one of the things that health physicists or others, medical researchers could use to monitor people, because everyone of a certain generation had so much tritium in them, right? Fix: Yeah, I wouldn’t use the words “so much,” but they certainly—since it was not a relatively hazardous nuclide, but everybody had, certainly, measurable quantities. Franklin: Yeah, sorry, I guess I meant so much as to be measured. Fix: Yeah. And interestingly, later on, I’ll describe, but when I eventually became an employee at Hanford, we documented—since when I came here in 19—let’s see, I came here—after I graduated from the University of Washington, I actually went to work for AEC, Atomic Energy Commission, at the national reactor testing station in Idaho. Franklin: Okay. Fix: And there, I was responsible for the environmental surveillance program in the context of analyzing—looking after, gathering the data, which was—these were well-established programs that every major DOE site had—at that time AEC site. So I was just one person in a series of people that had these responsibilities. But my position was responsible for analyzing all the data and writing the annual report. So we wrote these reports and distributed to all the state and representatives and different AEC sites. These were required; there was a DOE order that specified what had to be included, so we did that. And also, when I was at Idaho, we had NOAA was responsible for atmospheric dispersion—the National Oceanographic and Aeronautics Agency. And they also had the USGS, the United States Geological Service, responsible for the geohydrology of the Idaho site. So a couple years later, I came to Hanford and basically assumed the same responsibilities. I came here to do the site wide environmental surveillance program for the surface. And basically at that time, because many of the Hanford facilities had been shut down, the once-through reactors were closed down in the late, like ’68 or so. And worldwide fallout had, by that time, an international pact to stop the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons. So you could see in the environment, very quickly, this decrease in radioactivity, primarily from fallout. Franklin: Right. Fix: But near a site like Hanford, there was also the Hanford contribution. Because there’s quite a difference in the nuclide mix between weapons and at Hanford, which involved reactor effluence. So when we came here, the environmental data, meaning foodstuffs, air, water, you know, wildlife, anything that you could measure that might have importance to people was monitored, had been monitored for years. And has continued to be monitored for years since then. But anyway, when I came here the environmental measurements had gotten to the point where you really couldn’t measure much in the environment. So when I came here, I kind of adopted the techniques that were used at Idaho in which everything was calculated. You would take the effluent data and you’d take dispersion models and calculate what the off-site impact might be. And then you would verify that with the environmental data. So if you calculated minimal impact and then you didn’t see anything with the environmental program, then you felt very comfortable. But, so anyway, Hanford researchers that had these capabilities for using dispersion models, models, et cetera. So we wrote a series of reports, how the radioactivity in foodstuffs, wildlife, the river, how all that varied with time, and how it was declining. And one of the examples was tritium in the river. We wrote a report showing how that had changed since they had all this data. So we wrote a series of historical reports. Franklin: How were these reports received by both inside the kind of DOE/AEC complex, but also outside? Fix: I think they’re fine. I think everybody really appreciated it. I think, for one thing, it was very instructive to see how quickly it had changed. Franklin: You mean, quickly from the Atmospheric Test Ban Treaty to— Fix: , Yeah, right. Franklin: Okay. Fix: Yeah. It was very—and I think it was—there are lots of very interesting things in this data. I guess, being a technocrat, we like data. We love to analyze data. But most people don’t realize, for example, that, say, milk from the western side of the state, Seattle area, had twice the levels of strontium-90, as, say, this area, even though we had Hanford. Franklin: And why is that? Fix: And the reason is because worldwide fallout was predominantly following the pattern of rainfall. So the areas that had more rainfall had more radioactive—had more nuclides from worldwide fallout. And the same thing was true of cesium-137, say, in deer meat, or cattle, what-have-you. But their levels of cesium from worldwide fallout was higher where there was more rainfall. So, anyway, the data that Hanford collected, the contractors at Hanford collected for the AEC, included all of this information. So we included in some of our reports, but it was just a snapshot. What we did was kind of interesting, because things were changing. Everything was going down. And there was some new techniques of analyzing data that we found very—we really wanted to apply this data where we were looking at everything in terms of distribution, statistical distributions. Because you would expect, say, like, particle size of dust particles in the atmosphere would follow a certain distribution. So you can use this method of analysis to see, maybe, what type of—how much of, say, like, a particular nuclide that might exist in the atmosphere and in the environment from different sources, how much might be due to worldwide fallout, how much might be due to Hanford. It was particularly useful for data that might have significant amount of information below detection level. So we were applying these methods and the reports are publicly available and we enjoyed writing them. Franklin: So would you say, then, that for the west side, or for people in areas of high rainfall, would you say, then, that the threat that they faced from radioactive isotopes was more from the testing than from the Hanford production from effluent going into the Columbia River? Fix: Well, I wouldn’t want to characterize it in terms of threat or risk, because, you know, the evidence is that low levels of radiation may not be hazardous. That’s a very—that’s an open— Franklin: Are you talking about, like, Tony Brooks’— Fix: Well, Tony Brooks, but, I mean, in general, the evidence is that, for example, when you go to the dentist to get your dental x-rays, do you worry about the radiation you’re getting? Or if you’re taking a trip to Europe on an airplane, are you worried about a small amount of dose? Franklin: Well, no, of course, but a nuclear reactor represents, you know, I think, a sociocultural fear factor there. Fix: Well, I think that’s true, a social fear factor. I agree with you; there’s a lot of fear. I guess, in my mind, I’m always focused on how much dose is involved, because— Franklin: Sure, because that’s the measurable quantity, right, it’s not—the fear— Fix: Yeah. And actually, that’s why the amount of radionuclides that were becoming prevalent in the environment, it’s why there was worldwide outcries about continuing the nuclear weapon testing in the atmosphere and what led to the worldwide ban on atmospheric testing. Even after they had the testing agreement, there still continued to be some testing in the atmosphere by certain nations. Franklin: Right, more of rogue nations. Fix: Yeah. Well, rogue and even some very—yes. For a long time. And actually in the environmental programs, one of the interesting sidelights or aspects of these environmental programs, whenever there was a test in the atmosphere, we could pick it up very quickly. That was another use of this type of analysis we were talking about. We could pick it up very quickly, and actually at that point, those particular data we would kind of go on to a different program, because people wanted to know what we were seeing. And I don’t think it constituted a hazard or anything per se, but it was meaningful to—it was meaningful information. Franklin: Sure, sure. And it’s an important point you bring up that people are exposed in many everyday, what we think of as kind of everyday activities. Fix: Yes. Franklin: And that we not to worry about those, because I think we’ve categorized those as necessities, you know. And this is, we view, I think, weapons production maybe in a different light. Fix: Well, I think we all agree that we don’t want to take unnecessary risks. But interestingly, like, probably the nuclide that contributes more dose, significant dose to humans from all is potassium-40. You know, that’s a primordial radioactive nuclide that’s been there since the beginning of the Earth—or, time, I should say. And it has a very energetic gamma radiation of 1.46 MeVs. It’s very, very penetrating. And yet it’s unavoidable. Anytime you have a banana, there’s no way to avoid the potassium-40. That is a part of the potassium that we all take in. So there’s no way to avoid it. Franklin: Unless you stop eating bananas. Fix: Well, I think, yeah, but I think the amount of potassium in your body is primarily regulated by the body. If you get too much potassium, it gets eliminated. If you don’t get enough, it starts taking more of it, absorbing more of it. So, potassium, you can’t live without potassium. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. I was also being facetious. Fix: Well, you know, but these are the games that—I don’t know, “games,” but the perspectives that you have to weigh in. Franklin: Sure. Well, I want to go back a little bit earlier, when you said that when you first got to Hanford, you couldn’t measure much of the environment? And why was that? I’m wondering if you could discuss that challenge. Fix: Well, because all of the reactors at that time, once-through reactors, were closed down in the late ‘60s. The reprocessing facility was, I think, PUREX was—I forget its exact operating history, but it was being phased out. So it just wasn’t that many releases from Hanford. We certainly could measure some of the residual. The design of these surveillance programs was always to compare near versus far, upriver versus downriver, to do all sorts of sensible things, to try to see what impact there could be on the environment. Franklin: And where things were going— Fix: Yes. Franklin: --from, once they were created. Fix: Yeah. And for example, there was, of course, the history of the deposition of nuclides in the Columbia River, say, in the sediment behind McNary Dam. So we were always—at that time we were always trying to develop more sensitive methods, since things were—since you don’t really want to have data that has below detection level. That really is not—that’s really very difficult data to analyze. Franklin: Sorry, so, I’m a historian, not a—my last science class was a little bit ago. How do you have data “below detection level”? Fix: Well, if you can’t measure it with your method of analysis, then we just call it below detection level. Everything has a noise level, and if you just can’t discern a signal, you just call it below detection level. You can define what the detection level is. Franklin: So you’re saying that if you know that there is a very small amount of that element there, but you can’t detect it because of background radiation or something, then you would just say— Fix: Or noise in the instrumentation. You know, things are not perfect. Typically, if you, say, take a measurement, and you didn’t put any sample in there, you would have a reading. And historically, yeah, a person might say, the detection level is twice the variability of background that you get in the instrument with nothing in there. Franklin: Okay. Fix: So you might say, well, I can’t detect anything below that, because that’s just background. Franklin: So unlike a scale, you can’t just tare it out to zero and get a clean reading every time. Fix: Right, that’s right. Franklin: It’s always—okay. Fix: Everything has tradeoffs. So what you try to do is you try to either concentrate the material, or you try to combine samples. Like if we’re measuring levels of radionuclide in the air using air filters, they have a certain efficiency. What you might do is start to combine—this actually was done at Hanford, where, like, you’d have the routine samples for every month, for example, or in some cases every week, and then you might take all of them for a whole quadrant that you want to and ash them all on a quarterly basis so you get more information— Franklin: More data into it. Fix: More data, or more if you were collecting a certain isotope, you’d get more of that isotope and so you’d have to—then that would enhance your detection level. Because detection level, at least, would typically be measured on how much air you sampled, versus how much radioactivity you counted. Franklin: So you might need to add multiple samples up in order to get something— Fix: Right, and that actually was commonly done to get to greater detection levels. Like, say you wanted to measure plutonium in the atmosphere, for example, which does exist. So there were always techniques. Or using totally different technologies. Like, we went to filter resin sampling of the Columbia River water, because it was a much more efficient method of analyzing. You could analyze a lot more water with it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fix: So I used all sorts of techniques to try to get positive data. But at some point, you have to weigh, what is the underlying risk in the first place? Franklin: Sure. What other kinds of challenges did you face in gathering this data and writing reports about it? Fix: Well, in those—I think—well, the primary challenge is you want to be sure that your surveillance program doesn’t have any—is not possible to miss anything. That’s probably the first and foremost. But I had joined a very mature program here that they had been conducting this program for many years, and I was just one person in a line of people that had these responsibilities. You had to be sure that you interpreted the data accurately, as well. Franklin: Sure. Fix: So I think it was a very well-run program and everything went together very smoothly. Every site had these programs. So I did that for several years, and then I was transferred to the dosimetry program. Franklin: Was there a lot of communication between sites in these programs? Fix: Oh, sure, yeah. A tremendous amount. Yeah, all throughout all my years of these—that’s one of the most enjoyable things about these programs, is since they were programs that were run to meet AEC or DOE orders, they had to be done by a certain time. They had to cover certain subjects. But, yes, we communicated with other colleagues at other sites all the time. Franklin: Great. One last question about the surface environmental program. Were you, and if so, how, were you impacted by the growing environmental movement in the United States from the creation of the EPA and that kind of growing environmental concern in the general public? Fix: Well, I would say—I wouldn’t call us being impacted, I’m thinking most of all my colleagues were highly supportive. I mean, we all really wanted the data and certainly, I don’t think anyone was in favor of nuclear testing in the atmosphere. But I mean it’s all really—I mean, that’s way before EPA. I don’t—I guess I never really thought about it, because so much of EPA’s focus has nothing to do with radioactivity. So we’re kind of a small aspect of that. Franklin: Or, I guess, were you impacted by the growing anti-nuclear movement? Fix: Oh sure. Sure. Oh, sure. I was impacted, you know, employment-wise. You always wondered why, say, nuclear power couldn’t have been more, as a technology, couldn’t have been more fault-free, let’s say. It just had a few accidents, but the accidents were so significant. Because basically all you’re doing is using the nuclear to heat the water that goes, and the steam drives a turbine. Same thing you do with coal or natural gas or what-have-you. So, like, when I was at the national reactor testing station, we had many reactors there. Because, say, like the Army wanted to have small portable or remote reactors, because you could fuel them, put them in, say, the Arctic Circle, they’d run for years and years, and could be maintained by just a couple people. Franklin: Right, you wouldn’t have to keep trucking in fuel. Fix: Right, you wouldn’t have to ship in, wouldn’t have to have—yeah. It’s totally different dynamics, in terms of the tactical aspects of maintaining the facility. The same reason, or similar reason why you have the nuclear submarines. Franklin: Right. Fix: Nuclear-powered submarines. Franklin: So tell me about the occupational external dosimetry program. Fix: Well, after I had spent about five years in the environmental program here, then it was common practice there of my management to transfer professionals to other disciplines. So I think in about December of ’79 or so, I started here in ’74, and then ’79 I was transferred to the site-wide personnel dosimetry program. And that was very interesting, because, whereas the environmental surveillance program is kind of somewhat removed from operations, we kind of always gathering data, even though we write the official reports of the impact and everything, it’s kind of like after-the-fact. When I went to the external dosimetry program, we were really a part of the operation. We were a part of what would happen with, you know, doses where people actually working, say, yesterday, if we had a significant job, versus— And even though there I was primarily responsible for the dosimetry that would determine the official dose of record. We were responsible for the nuclear accident of personnel dosimetry. And actually interestingly we did the environmental dosimetry as well at that time. Because it was all part of the same type of technology. Franklin: And was this site-wide? Fix: Yes, site-wide. Franklin: Okay, so for every Hanford employee. Fix: Every Hanford employee. Everybody, both employees and visitors to the Site, all were required to wear dosimetry, and it served everybody. This is a program that, of course, had started with the very beginning of Hanford operations in the ‘40s, ’43, ’44 or whatever it was. And through time, there had been technological changes. So when I came here, it was common practice for every site to have designed its own dosimeters and its own technology reader systems to process these dosimeters. Because there really was no commercial source of equipment that could be used for this. Franklin: What types did Hanford have? Fix: What’s that? I’m sorry. Franklin: What types did Hanford have? Of dosimeter and reading? Fix: Well, they had actually, they had—about ’71, they introduced a new type of dosimetry called the thermoluminescent dosimeter. Again, this was a small crystals of salt that had the capability of responding to radiation, storing the signal, and then upon heating, would give off a light, give off a signal, in the form of light that could be measured that was indicative of the amount of radiation received. Franklin: And was that part of what you were working on as an intern? Fix: Well, that’s a great—you mean as a graduate student? Yeah. This thermoluminescent dosimetry was being used everywhere. At University of Washington, we used it also. Everybody used it. It was the replacement to film dosimetry. You know, you had these little crystals of salt that you could use that were just very handy. There’s quite a bit of physics that went into using these properly. But fundamentally it was sort of the latest technology at that time. Franklin: Okay. And what other kinds of equipment did Hanford—did you use to monitor? Because you mentioned Hanford had its own dosimeters and dosimeter process equipment. So what other types of equipment? Fix: Well, first of all, the dosimeters are really the after—they provide the official dose of record, but that’s really after-the-fact. When people go into the workplace, you’re not depending on a dosimeter to keep them safe. They go in with instruments, primarily instruments. People have knowledge of the work environment—typically they know what the hazards are. Now, as you probably know, that Hanford had a special workforce called the radiation protection monitors. Their whole job was to evaluate the work environment and accompany workers when they entered to make sure they were not taking undue risks using instruments. So instruments were always the number one thing. And one of the reasons this particular program involved working with this field was because you had to really make sure the dosimetry and the instrumentation were consistent. There’s a lot of science behind using the right instrument as well as using the right dosimetry. Because at Hanford we have many types of radiation. We have different types of radiation that have different energies. And they all may require different methods of measurement. So anyway, you know, maintaining this equipment and making sure it was accurate was my responsibility. And also we had the nuclear accident dosimetry. So I know, like, the first—I came to this program in December, and I had to spend two entire weekends out in December because there had been a situation where a worker reported that he had a high dose and saw a blue flash. So that involved a tremendous response by the contractors. I remember it happened on a Friday night. So we had the nuclear accident dosimeters at the facility. These are actually devices that are located at fixed positions in the facility. So we had to process all of those. And at that time we interfaced with the Site medical staff. So as soon as—actually, I should’ve said, the first clue on this was the dosimeter came in and was read very high. Not very—now, we don’t want to say very high, but certainly very unusually high; it wasn’t a normal dose. Franklin: Sure. It was above the— Fix: Above the action level. We had all sorts-- Franklin: Above the dose of record. Fix: Well, not the dose of record. Franklin: Oh, sorry. Fix: It was above the—we have all sorts of action levels. Certainly, we have the legal allowable, then below that then you have where you have to take action, et cetera. But anyway, this was unusually high. Wasn’t like, life threatening, but it was—so we immediately, you know, the Site response took over, and probably took him to, I’m sure we probably took him to the medical staff, had some blood drawn. You could take blood and have it analyzed, at that time, at Oak Ridge. But anyway, to make a long story short, none of this happened. I mean, it did—the person reported that there was a blue flash and that he had this high dose. But it turned out that the worker, after investigating and the contractor working all weekend, trying to resolve this situation, the person apparently—all the evidence was that he actually took his dosimeter and put it in like a baggie, dropped it down into the spent fuel pool to expose it either—I don’t know if he wanted to get some time off for New Year’s or—because this was happening at Christmas time. Anyway, I don’t think he had any idea what was going to happen, but sadly, we had all sorts of bits of information. This was very much like forensic science, because with this radiation, we knew what type of radionuclides were in the spent fuel, we knew what type of residual contaminants had gotten onto the exterior of the dosimeter. We could tell, essentially, almost exactly what this person had done. And of course once it was all put together, sadly, you know, he lost his job. Franklin: Sure. Fix: Anytime anybody did anything with the dosimetry to—anyway, that was an employment-ending activity. So, anyway, we worked all weekend on that, sadly. But that was, in the long-run that was good, because that was one of my responsibilities. It didn’t happen very often but we had to process those dosimeters. The physics of criticality in particular is very, very complicated. So you really have to make sure that the system works properly and you get the type of data you needed. But anyway, at the same time, we had an effort going on to adopt performance standards for dosimetry nationwide. It actually started years before, actually, decades earlier. But while I was—really become quite a common activity when I took this new position, and of course I was very supportive on performance standards as well. So, we worked on that. We actually made testimonies to Congress about—because there was complaints that if we enacted these performance standards, it put a lot of small processors out of business, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s always these tradeoffs between what was the better, greater good. But the performance standards were eventually adopted and they were quite rigorous in terms of their criteria and what was achievable. There were all sorts of tests done. So I eventually became chairman of the—so this involved a couple of activities. One was every two years you had to pass a performance test where they would take dosimeters that actually employers would wear, send them to a lab to expose to, say, three different type, four different—depends on how you add it up, but several different types of radiation at different does levels, totally blind to you. And then send them back in three rounds of testing, and you had to pass the performance test. Once you got the performance test results, if you passed, then you get an onsite programming appraisal, at least within the DOE system, by two technical experts. So then those results would then be sent to the oversight board to—I don’t know what all I have in here, but I mentioned this is my million-mile backpack from Delta for travel over the years. But I was basically they had the DOE lab accreditation program oversight board, so all the results then went to the board. And there was five of us. Then we would make recommendations whether to accredit them or not. It was a very important thing, because if you didn’t have an accredited program, you weren’t supposed to be able to do dosimetry. So it’s very significant. So anyway I got this nice plaque from the Department of Energy, this service award, because I was the very first chair of the DOELAP Oversight Board for personal dosimetry, which later became external. So I did that from ’86 to ’91. I was actually on the board for a lot longer. But I was just the chair for this particular time. So that was a particularly important award in my—or, recognition in my life from DOE Headquarters. So anyway, it was obviously a very relieved moment in my own personal history when the Hanford program achieved accreditation. Franklin: Sure. Fix: Because, you know, that was not a given. It was a very difficult test. Especially for a site like Hanford, because with plutonium, we had the low-energy photons from the plutonium and also the neutrons so it was not an easy test to pass. So anyway, that program involved a lot of challenges and so I eventually left that program. When I said at the beginning, we had to all maintain our own equipment, our own dosimeters, et cetera. Well, later in time, the commercial, and I guess partially because there was this performance standard, the commercial companies then had something to really focus on. And they eventually came up with technology and reader systems and dosimeter systems that were certainly, the performance was good enough to pass these standards and it was just much cheaper to buy a commercial system. So actually Hanford then implemented a commercially-based system in January of 1995. And at that time, I kind of had left—then I left the program at that point. Franklin: In 1995? Fix: Approximately. Because people were asking questions—were increasingly asking questions about the historical dosimetry at Hanford and elsewhere. I had—since I was responsible for the program, running the program, we were responsible for also going back and looking at the historical trends and patterns. The Hanford workers were an important component of the epidemiological study of the radiological effects on workers. The reason is because there was a lot of Hanford workers; they were employed early in the development of atomic energy; and Hanford had maintained excellent records. And the dosimetry seemed to always be of very good quality, historically. But there were still trends in data that looked kind of unusual where if you started looking at details of the dosimetry, there were some trends in that that people wanted some explanation of. They could be a lot of things. There could be a change in the technology of the dosimetry, or there could have been changes in calibrations, or they could’ve been changes in operations. You know, there could’ve been a cleanup operation or there could’ve been a reactor, could’ve been shut down or what-have-you. So myself and others got very involved in analyzing data, historical data, to provide to the epidemiological community who were evaluating the Hanford studies. So to make a long story short, I did a lot of the—quite a bit of this, partially while I was still a part of the dosimetry team. But then to support the Hanford worker epidemiological study, we did this. Then when that was—the people that were responsible for that program had done some of the epidemiological studies, then those studies were combined with other studies from other sites, like, notably in my case, Oak Ridge and Rocky Flats. So, because they had the problem of trying to—fundamentally, they were trying to determine was there an association with the rate of incidences with various types of cancer with radiation dose. And since, as you know, cancer occurs spontaneously, with or without Hanford. The question was, did Hanford increase the incidence of various types of cancers? And that was very difficult question to answer, epidemiologically. So there they were always trying to enhance their statistical precision, either in terms of trying to have, basically, in terms of trying to have more data. So Hanford, the studies at Hanford, the statistical precision wasn’t really quite adequate, wasn’t sufficient to detect that. So then they combined that with Oak Ridge and Rocky Flats. Still, there, they wanted more precision, so then that was eventually combined with what was called the Three Country Study, an international agency for research on cancer. That was combined with Canada and the United Kingdom. So I supported those studies. I was the—I don’t know what all I have in here, but I had—I was the chair of the international agency research on cancer dosimetry subcommittee at that time. And then we—did I mention then we took that study from the three countries and went on to do eleven countries in the world? Franklin: Oh, wow. Fix: Yeah, for the international study. So I was just the support, the dosimetry support. So the epidemiologists and biostatisticians from all these different residents from all these different countries and everybody would get this data. We would make judgments as to what dosimetry we thought had greater accuracy than others. For example, it was hard, historically, and it’s still hard even to this day to measure neutron radiation. While there’s many types of facilities that have no neutrons, Hanford—many facilities at Hanford did not have neutron radiation; some did. And so we got involved in supporting those studies. So that led—that’s probably why I got my million-mile thing, going—I got many trips to France and that, supporting these studies, which were widely published. Franklin: I see you have a nametag or a thing there with Cyrillic on it. Fix: Yeah, I haven’t gotten to that part. Well, actually, after—I’ll get to that right away. Franklin: Okay, sure, I was just curious. Fix: Yeah, well, actually, after I was doing this for the thing—for the epidemiologists and that, just trying to cover, quickly, my career. The first phase of my career really was the environmental part, which we talked about. The second part was really the Hanford Site dosimetry program, which we talked about. The third part of my career really had to do with sort of taking the data and applying it to different types of programs. One of those was the epidemiology studies, which I was involved in the Hanford program, then the three sites, then the three-country, and then the eleven-country for IRE. These were only kind of part-time efforts; these were not full-time efforts. And then I became involved—then I took over the role in the joint US-DOE/Russian Mayak worker study. Franklin: Okay. Fix: Which you’ve probably heard about? Franklin: I have. That’s going on today, right? Fix: Yes, it is. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve met—I don’t remember the gentleman’s name, but I— Fix: Yeah, Bruce Napier, probably. Franklin: Yes. Yeah. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. I met him over the USTUR. Fix: Yeah. Well, when Bruce—originally, he was primarily responsible for the environmental part, because they had a lot of effluent from the Mayak operation, which is very similar to Hanford in terms of its scope of— Franklin: But they had more releases. Fix: Well, they had more and also but they didn’t have a river like the Columbia. Franklin: Oh. Theirs was slower and— Fix: And also they reposited a lot of it to a lake. Franklin: Yeah, and I don’t know if this is going to be apropos to you, but most of what I know about this is what I read from Kate Brown’s book, Plutopia, which I know had mixed reception among some folks here. But it’s very interesting, her coverage of how different the environmental conditions were in Mayak that led to much greater contamination. Fix: Yes, right. Well, that’s right. You know, when you had eight single-pass reactors running at Hanford and they’re dumping it into—first of all, they went to pools to let some of the radioactivity decline. But then eventually when it went into that big river, and all got sent downstream. Franklin: Sure. Fix: And Russia didn’t have that. But anyway, my job was not the environment. My job was for the workers. Just like we had done the study for IRE for the workers. Because the context was there that the workers should have the very highest doses of all. They’re working in the facility, they live in the environment. And they’re monitored. If anybody should show an effect, you should be able to pick it up with these workers. So I took over the role as the technical lead for the external dosimetry part, working with my Russian colleagues. So that led us to many trips to Russia and many studies. This is actually my name in Russian. You know, my nametag. You know, so? Franklin: Right, no, I can read that. Yeah, Djon Fix. Fix: So, I don’t know why, this is just a collection of things in here. I did this for several years, until we had a major publication special edition of Health Physics devoted to this particular—results from this program. Franklin: The US-Russia— Fix: US-Russia collaboration, right, for studying the Mayak workers— Franklin: How did you find working with your Russian colleagues? Fix: Well, first of all, they were—we worked with them long enough that we really developed some real personal ties. I mean, for example, the interpreters were very nice people to deal with. They knew more about American culture than I did. I mean, they knew all about—their main source of information, I believe, was American movies and American music. So they could name—they were just remarkable in being able to know singers and songs and movies, much more capably than I could, and I lived here. Franklin: Right. Fix: [LAUGHTER] But we were there long enough to see them come in as young interpreters and then get married and then have babies and then have toddlers, you know? So it was quite a nice experience from the human aspect. As far as the Russians, it took us a while to—it took, I think, working with the same team on both sides for them to develop a level of comfort with, say, at least the American approach. Our American scientific approach is that everything is checked and double-checked, and there’s no—you shouldn’t really have any personal—you shouldn’t feel defensive if people are checking your work. What you really care about is that it’s accurate. And I think the Russians initially were not too inclined to have us checking their work, but that was our job, was to check everything. So after a few years, I think it all worked out really well. Our primary job—and actually, this was true throughout my career, my primary job was typically always writing everything up. Writing it up and letting other people check it. Anyway, for the Russians, we did the same thing. It was Russian workers, a Russian facility, and we were there just to mentor them and I guess to represent the DOE’s interest in this work. The reason that DOE was there is because, generally speaking, the impact on workers from American facilities was, at best, controversial. It was never a clear answer to that question. Well, the Russian workers could’ve gotten as much dose in one year as the American workers got in their entire lifetime. So you really were going to a situation where there ought to be some impacts. Not only did that, they had some accidents with workers. So that actually where they actually did have the medically-exhibited elements of radiation syndrome. So most of those were removed from our—from the epidemiologic study, because they’re really more like an accident evaluation. Franklin: Right, you were looking at the dose that someone would get from normal work in Russia. Fix: That’s right, that’s right. Which—that’s correct. Interestingly, the Russians—because we had what were called these hidden cities. So we would go to the hidden city where Mayak was located. These are interesting experiences, because when you enter these towns, you need to only—you can only enter by imitation. Because you go through a—they know how to really have a fence or a border. Because you go through an outer one, and you sit between two barbed wire—you know, with razor wire on the top, with guards walking back and forth with AK-47s. Nobody’s cracking any jokes. So anyway, but the city inside that, they had records for everything. All your family, all your medical exposures, any medical abnormalities you may have will be part of your personal record, as well as all the occupational information. So it’s really a goldmine; it doesn’t really exist, probably, maybe outside, in another country, outside of that type—where you have a captive city, all these records, all the records are maintained, and it be available for study. So we worked with the Mayak facility there as well as what was called the Southern Urals Biophysical Institute, to come up with these studies. Franklin: Is that another secret city? In the Southern Urals— Fix: No, that’s the institute inside, that was located within the—at the hidden city. They’re no longer hidden now, but at one time. Meaning that they would never show them on maps of the area. Franklin: Right, and you couldn’t get in without a really good reason for being there. Fix: Well, we had to be invited by the Russian—it had to be approved by the Russian government. And actually because of politics going back and forth between the United States and Russia, we weren’t always allowed to go into the city. Sometimes we had to—our team had to stay outside of the city, and then they would come out and meet with us scientifically, for the scientific work. But anyway, that’s just part of international politics, I guess. But anyway—let’s see, where was I? So we went on that, and when I eventually left that program when we achieved all these major publications. Because I was getting a little bit further along in my career at that time, and that’s a lot of work to go to Russia. When we land in Moscow, we have to—Russia is a very big country; it has eleven time zones. So once we landed in—we usually landed at Frankfurt, and then at Frankfurt, then you have essentially the same remaining flight that’s going across the United States, four more time zones. There, we had four more time zones from Frankfurt. And then we had to get on a bus and ride for two hours. So it was—you know, you were very tired by the time you got to these facilities. So it was nice working with the Russians. They really developed—you had to be there long enough, I think they initially were very suspicious of you, but I wouldn’t say that that’s any different, you know, if you go and investigate—if you go there like as part of this DOELAP program I was talking about, basically site experts like say the Hanford Site expert and Los Alamos Site expert would go to Oak Ridge to evaluate the Oak Ridge program, there’s plenty of opportunity there for sensitivity. But it all went very smoothly because I think everybody believed in the benefits of the program. Franklin: Right, Well, I mean, it kind of makes sense with the Russians, right? I mean, we were enemies for 40 years and we created all these weapons out of fear of each other, and I guess—I mean, it seems like it’s not hard to imagine, if the roles were reversed, Russian scientists—Americans being very defensive about Russians questioning their research method or their research. Or at least that kind of, that initial— Fix: Well, no, I agree with you, Robert. Even—there’s a little bit even more there to that, I think. First of all, the Russians were in a communist society, and where being a member of the communist party was really a very important thing. They couldn’t always trust their neighbors, let alone trust a foreigner. And the other thing is, is interestingly, where we used to go to work near, Yekaterinburg was the main city where we flew to, that’s where Gary Powers was shot down. In the U-2 plane. I’ve always wondered how would Americans feel if there was a high-flying Russian airplane flying over the United States? I mean, we have—I mean, this is just a question of opinion, because I’m sure we would say we have good reasons to be looking at—they’re not an open society; we’re an open society. Russians can live here. We can’t really live there in Russia. So this is a very complicated thing, but you can certainly understand some sensitivity. But anyway, they handled it very well, and amazingly we were in Russia at this—we used to go there and basically stay at what’s called a danya dacha. It’s a dacha, it’s like a country estate. Franklin: Yeah. Fix: Type of thing. Really was not that nice, but it was comparatively a good place to be. But anyway, when the United States invaded Iraq, we were actually in Russia. Franklin: You mean the ’91 invasion? Fix: Yeah. No— Franklin: Okay, the first Gulf War. Fix: The one where we invaded—no, not the first one. The second—not from—the younger Bush invasion. Franklin: Oh, the second Gulf War. Fix: The second one, yeah. We were actually there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fix: And on the Russian TV, we could see all of this going on, but we couldn’t understand what was happening. The Russians would very politely not really say—they could only really ask the interpreters. But I was very impressed with how much many of the Russian scientists how much they could do in English. Because we certainly weren’t talking in Russian. We always had to have interpreters. Anyway, it was a good experience overall. You know, initially, it was kind of stressful, because we really had a mission which was we wanted to get the study done, we wanted to verify that the methods were methods that we would agree with. And so we eventually were able to achieve all those things. But it was a challenge. Franklin: So that leads me to a couple questions. You mentioned that in America, the link between workers and cancer was—what did you call it? You didn’t say ambiguous, but you said it was— Fix: Controversial. Franklin: Controversial. What did you find in Russia in regards— Fix: Well, those studies are still being put together and published. First of all, you’ve got to gather the datasets; you’ve got to validate the dosimetry; you have to decide if you want to use all of the population or a subset. You know, like I mentioned these workers that were exposed to very high levels, you may not want to include those. You may want to put them in a separate study. The other thing is, is some of the epidemiological studies, at least historically, really used the recorded dose of record being the dosimeter. Because, like for example at Hanford, everybody had a dosimeter. You had a measurement for everybody. You had people had very little dose, and you had people that had a lot more dose, depending on what their jobs were. But within that population of people, you also had some workers that were exposed to, that had intakes of plutonium or other nuclides. Really those people are actually, maybe should be in another category, because not only did they have external radiation, they have internal radiation. So there’s many ways to slice this data, trying to figure out what data is best to use. And then there’s those that have the neutron radiation. Certainly some workers, like the plutonium workers have neutrons, they have intakes—some have intakes—and they also have external. So that was our role; that was kind of my role as a dosimetrist supporting these epidemiologists to say, well, you know, I really wouldn’t put a lot of—as far as identifying what was the higher quality data, I might pick people that only worked at reactors, for example. They only get exposed primarily to high energy gamma radiation. They’re in this facility, it’s a huge facility with all this shielding. Anything that can get through that shielding, the dosimeter’s going to measure relatively very accurately. So we would go through and analyze various scenarios as to what would be the better data. But to answer your question, I don’t think those data have been published fully yet. Franklin: Okay, so it’s still ongoing. Fix: Yeah, yeah, the study’s still ongoing. Franklin: How did the Russian program differ—dosimetry program differ from the American dosimetry program, if at all? Fix: Well, I’m trying to remember exactly. Well, first of all, they’re always behind us a little bit as far as like, they used film dosimetry for a very long time. A lot longer than we did. I’m not sure if there was any thermoluminescent dosimetry data in what we analyzed. It was all—there’s nothing really wrong with film, but it is—in some ways, film can actually be superior, but it does have—in general, it’s not as good for broad, like if you’re exposed to many different types of radiation. It has challenges with neutron dosimetry, for example. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Fix: So it has a special different type of film that’s used for neutrons. It’s called neutron track emulsion. So I would say that the data was—I think the record keeping and the use of the dosimetry was well done, but as far as the technology, it was probably—they were just getting, I think, getting to the point of implementing thermoluminescent dosimetry when we were there, I think, as I recall. Franklin: Oh, okay, so in that regard, then, they were a couple decades behind. Fix: I would say so, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. So-- Fix: I wouldn’t say “behind”; I would say using different, older technology. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay, sure, sure, yeah. Sorry, I didn’t want to—I know phrasing’s important, so I appreciate that. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: So when did you—so what was next, after the Russian dosimetry program? Fix: Well, actually, I was getting to be about 66 or so, and I know I decided that I’d had it with the Russians because one day—I’d suffered from arrhythmias. You know, I got a pacemaker when I was about 45. So I was pulling my suitcase at 2:30 in the morning through the snow in Russia to the Yekaterinburg airport. And I was kind of falling behind the other three or four members of our team, and I was—because you kind of get kind of tired if you have the arrhythmia problem. So I thought, jeez, this is ridiculous, I’m going to have to quit this and I’m kind of at a good place to quit. So I decided there that was my last trip to Russia. Fortunately, we’d already had these publications and there were people to take on whatever my responsibilities were. So I left it at that point. And then I went on, as you may know, around 2000, Congress—another role that I had was Congress, you know, passed the DOE Worker’s Compensation Act? The Energy Employees’ Occupational Illness Act? Franklin: The EEOICPA? Fix: Yeah. That one. Well, I was very involved in that, because I’d been doing this work on dosimetry construction for the epidemiologists and we’d been publishing documents on how to dosimetry construction for—and how to— Franklin: Yeah. [UNKNOWN] Fix: And how to take in considerations of energy and angular dependence because, you know, in a dosimetry program, you had the measurement—you really only know what did the dosimeter get. Because that’s what you’re measuring it with. You really don’t know what the body’s getting. So since cancer is organ-dependent, typically—I mean, you have particular types of cancer, usually it’s organ-dependent. Like leukemia, it would be bone marrow, et cetera, et cetera. So we’d done a variety of work to try to take into consideration the energy and the angular dependence on the dosimetry to come up with better estimates of organ dose, because that’s really what epidemiologists needed. And when they came out with the energy workers’ employment compensation act, which it’s been called, I guess, some of our publications they thought, well, this is a way we can measure organ doses. Because we’re talking about cancer for the workers, we can use these methods to estimate organ doses for the workers in different ways. So at least our stuff got of interest to NIOSH who was responsible for dosimetry construction and also in 1995 the Congress had mandated that DOE transfer their epidemiologic studies to NIOSH. So I’d already had a relationship with NIOSH, even on like the IRAC studies, later. Initially it was DOE then it transferred to NIOSH. So I got very involved in the NIOSH-DOE worker. And when I left Battelle, when I reached 60 I left Battelle and went to work for Dade Moeller and Associates— Franklin: An NV5— Fix: Huh? Franklin: An NV5 company, right? Fix: Now it is, yeah. But at that time, it was Dade Moeller and Associates. So I went to work for them. And even when I was still doing the DOE program. So there I became the principal external dosimetrist for the NIOSH for external dosimetry, but working with many other people and it was the NIOSH researchers. I must say, all throughout my career, you know, I was just one person that—we always had small teams, we were always working together, everybody—my job, usually, typically, was writing it up. And then everybody else would tear it part. And I’d write it up again. And go through a few cycles and then we had something everybody felt good about. So I did that for several years. And there I got to travel to many DOE sites, because every site needed a technical basis document to do dosimetry construction. So I got to travel to, you know, many DOE sites throughout the nation and prepare these documents. So anyway, that was kind of the end of my career after a while. The NIOSH program was a friend, colleague of mine. I went to part-time status in 2011 and in March of 2013, a colleague of mine that I worked with for a long time, you know, there was some kind of cutback, some reduction in funding for that particular project, as I recall. And he decided that he’d just as soon retire and leave the money, whatever money that was available, make sure it was available for younger people. And I thought, well, I’d do the same thing, and we both left. Cleaned out our offices and went on to different things. Franklin: Finally retired? Fix: Yeah. And I had to finish a paper that I was—for the national—well, it used to be the National Commission on Radiological Protection in the United Kingdom. They changed their name to something. Anyway, the same group though. But they wanted the paper written on their epidemiologic study on their recommendation then. I didn’t want to do it but eventually I did do it. Because all the people that could’ve done it better than me seemed to be occupied doing other things and they weren’t able to do it. So once I finished that document, then that’s when I was totally done. Franklin: Okay. Fix: That happened in March of 2013, and then that was the end of my career. Franklin: I’m sure you’re still keeping busy. Fix: Oh, yeah, now. I’m really not doing anything professionally but I’m certainly doing a lot as far as taking care of my body and exercising and going to the local Fun, Fit and Over Fifty club, which is a great club. Doing yoga. So kind of a different perspective. Franklin: Great. I just have one last kind of closing question. Fix: Uh-huh. Franklin: And that’s, what would you—I have one last closing question, then I guess we could show, if you want to show any of the plaques, we could do that and you could talk about those. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: My one last closing question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? And after. Fix: Well, I think I would stress being a student of science. Science is just so remarkable, and Hanford’s just one particular aspect of science that had to do with nuclear energy or nuclear—I say it had to do with nuclear, radiological sciences. But that’s such a broad thing, I mean, you can talk about the stars, cosmic radiation, terrestrial radiation, studying the functions of the human body and medical research. My whole life has just been so amazing, because of the technology. I would just encourage anybody who loves science—I mean, you can always question maybe the politics, but the science is universal. So it’s just been a great career. Franklin: Great. Fix: Really. Franklin: Well, thanks, thank you, Jack. So the best way—so, if we could show them, we need to get the camera here. Fix: Well, this is my one for the DOE-Russian study. I didn’t know which ones I had here, but— Franklin: What we’ll do is we’ll move this. Okay. Fix: This is my role on the Russian as US team lead for the Russian program. I don’t know if the reflections is— Franklin: That’s not too bad. No, that’s okay. Victor Vargas: There’s a shadow. Fix: I guess you can’t really see that very well. Yeah. Franklin: US Team Leader for External Dosimetry. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: September 2007. Great. Fix: Yeah, I got that from them. It was very nice of them to do that. Franklin: Yeah. Fix: And I think you already have the other ones I have. Franklin: Is that from the Health Physics Society? Fix: Yeah, well, I have a bunch—actually, I was chair of the other role I forgot to mention was I was chair of the Health Physics Society standards committee. I mentioned my commitment to standards, like the standards for that, but I actually worked for, I think I was, for eight years, I was on the committee and then I became chair of the committee. So then I was the committee chair. Then after this, actually, near the end of my career, I actually went out to the international standards organization. Franklin: Oh, wow. Fix: Yeah, so I went to meetings in Paris and Vienna, representing the DOE interest in radiation protection for what’s called Technical Committee 85 Scientific Committee 2, which means nothing, but anyway, it has to do with this one small area. International standards are something that’s very important to all of the world, probably other than the United States. We’re kind of sitting over here and the rest of the world really relies on these international standards. And so do we. If we want to market goods, internationally. Franklin: Sure, sure. Did you have anything—any other— Fix: Well, no, I don’t want to bore people with all of these. I’ve shown those particular ones. I do have a number of health physics-related. Franklin: Like your Herbert M. Parker award. Fix: Yeah, I was very fortunate to receive that and as you know, Herb Parker is, you know— Franklin: Kind of a legend in the health physics world. Fix: He’s a legend and a person that really understood the importance of dosimetry and record keeping. So I was very fortunate to receive that from my colleagues. Franklin: We actually have a painting of Herb Parker in our office, framed, that was given to us. But it’s good. He sits over our coffee pot and watches over us. Fix: Yeah, I’ve only—I don’t think the rest of them are really—they just have to do with— Franklin: It’s totally your choice. Fix: Yeah, I don’t think the rest of them are really worth—I don’t know where my—oh, this is my certification one. This shows a very old person, these are all my recertifications as a health physicist. Franklin: And when do all those start, from-- Fix: 1977, I think. Franklin: Oh, founded 1960. Fix: No, these are all my accreditations. I can’t really function as a certified health physicist without being recertified every four years. Franklin: Oh, I see. Fix: So it shows a very old fellow. Franklin: You just put in your dues. Fix: Yup, that’s right. Franklin: Well, great, well, thank you so much, Jack. It was a really illuminating interview. Thank you for putting up with my limited knowledge of science and health physics. I think you did a great job explaining what it is that you did and the importance of it. So thank you. Fix: Yeah. Glad to be here. Thank you, Robert. Franklin: Yeah, thank you, okay. Yeah, that was really-- Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:23:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9985kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Lab Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 55 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Fix Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Jack came to the Hanford site in 1969 as an intern and built his career at Hanford labs. He received an AEC Fellowship and worked with thermoluminescent dosimetry. Ultimately expanded the field of Medical Radiation Physics. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/30/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ab67a3d85cfb0484dc8bd0aba7023b2.jpg 255391536a966b05c149618c495987ac https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F48f8598a4a9054adfe66f2440b2cf119.mp4 b0f295139e0095fdfb24d1b5ba729f4a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Hales Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Hales Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Hales conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7f7715623100afbb66dd47e73de6f561.jpg 0002ffe11948b43311ebb7a961d5a628 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9ebfcd597b679760a742fd7933925b23.mp4 ed164cfe7bd11e113062417f98a3f61a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack McElroy Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Northwest Public Television | McElroy_Jack </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Robert Bauman: All right. We'll go ahead and started then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Jack McElroy: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: We could maybe start by having you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. My name is a Jack McElroy. It's J-A-C-K M-C-E-L-R-O-Y. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Great. Thank you. And today's date is October 22nd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start if we could by having you talk about when you came to work at Hanford initially, what brought you here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. I was born at Grand Coulee Dam when my folks came out here from North Carolina and grew up in Spokane. And they came out here to work on the dam. After it was completed, we moved Spokane. I grew up there. So at Lewis and Clark High School I took all their math and science classes. And in my senior year, Hanford started an engineering technician development program. And I was hired directly from high school by General Electric. And I came here in the summer of 1955 and started working. I was at the large central store's administration building next to the bus lot for a couple months while they obtained our Q clearances. And the program also involved sending us to classes. So during that time, we also started going to classes. So I basically came here in 1955 at the age of 18 directly out of high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: How many students were there? How many-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: There was about 20 of us that they recruited. There were several of us from Spokane. In fact, we formed a carpool and would go back to Spokane almost every weekend using the ferry that was here at North Richland, went over to South Landing on the Pasco side. And that was the quickest way to get back and forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so how long did you do that then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I did that for a year and a half. And I had some great rotations. And at the same time that I signed on down here, I joined the Air National Guard out in Spokane. And I was interested in flying. So in 1957, I actually left here to go into the pilot training program. But I probably ought to back up to my experiences here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I want to ask you about, you said a different rotation. What sort of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. My first assignment was radiation monitoring in a 325 Building, where I was basically a technician supporting chemists and also other radiation monitors. I learned a lot about the radiation and monitoring and so on, which was limited to the radio chemistry labs there in the 325 Building. My second assignment took me out to the 100 Areas, where I worked for Larry McEwen and the heat transfer group. And I was assigned to his group in the hydraulics lab that was at the 100-D and D Area. And I brought in a picture and gave that to you of me working there in the lab. I met some really great chemical engineers there including a guy that would have an effect in my life later on by the name of John Batch who was a PhD from Purdue. And they had quite an influence on my future as it turned out. My next assignment, I went to radiation monitoring again with Herm Pass in the 100 Areas. And he was stationed--they had an office at the 100-D, D Area also. And while I was on that assignment, I was very fortunate to be involved in the 105-B outage. And during that outage, we supported the changing out of the old curlicue pig tails. They basically looked like the real pig tail, and that's how they got their name. They were formed just like a curlicue. And they were on the front face of the reactors. And in 1956, on the B Reactor, they changed those out and put in stainless steel, flexible hoses and pipes. And so I was there at the reactor at that time supporting that operation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: How long did that take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Oh, it was just a month or so to actually do that. And that was actually my last assignment. And I did pretty good and actually achieved radiation monitor status before I left and went into the Air Force in early 1957. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Of those different assignments, did you have one that you enjoyed the most? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I think the radiation monitoring at 100 Areas. I got to go out to all the different reactors. I was able to go the rear face on occasion. I mean, the rear face is a really hot, hot area. So you had to stay out to the side. But at least I was able to see the rear faces on the reactors and the front faces on several reactors. And so that was a very exciting assignment. But it was the hydraulics lab and heat transfer unit that probably had the biggest impact on me later on when I decided to go to college after I was in the Air Force. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so what sort of work did you do in the hydraulics lab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Basically took measurements of fluid flow. And then I did an awful lot of graphing for the engineers and realized at that time that, geez, if I had a degree, I could be having somebody else do the graphs for me. So it was very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And you said that you and a group of you would drive to Spokane often, basically on weekends. Where did you stay? when you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: When we came here, they put us up in the Sanford Hotel, which was on Swift Boulevard. It's since been removed. But it was an old army barracks type of place and had simple bunk beds and so on in it. But in 1955, the government started turning the city over to the community, basically. And things like prefab became available for renting. And so on a group of four of us actually applied for a prefab and ended up in a one-bedroom prefab at 1213 Potter Street. And it was a little bit crowded, but we had a ball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And what was the community of Richland like at the time, 1955, '56? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: It still had a mess hall. You could go to the mess hall there downtown just across from where the post office is at now and have a large buffet dinner and eat there. As I said, we stayed in the little hotel, barracks type hotel. Uptown Theater was there. It was pretty normal, small community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so you were here for a year and a half or so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then if you can talk about what you did and what brought you back to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. Well, I left to go in the military. And I actually became a pilot and an officer and came back to the Washington Air National Guard up at Geiger Field and basically, at that time, decided, well, this is a great opportunity for me to go back to school. So I went to Gonzaga University while I was flying with the Guard and Air Force. And I received a Bachelor of Science in chemical engineering. And GE hired me immediately to bring me back down here. So I was back down here in July of 1963. So I was gone for about six years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Were you hoping to get back to Hanford at some point? Or was that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: You know, I didn't know. I really didn't know what life had in store for me, but it just kept changing and progressing. And I was certainly glad to get back down here once I had the opportunity. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So when you came back in 1963, then what sort of work were you doing? What areas were you working in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I kind of stumbled, or fate or something steered me into waste management and the group that was pioneering the development of waste treatment technology for handling radioactive waste. And they were just based, had a lot of their people, in a 321 Building, which was a building that had a lot of history. Other people may have mentioned it, but it had a lot of history for developing separations technology for the site. And at the time I was there, it was actually being used to develop which treatment technology. And so I got in with that group. And I spent three or four months with them learning about vitrification and also something called calcining, where you take liquid waste and heat it up, and drive off a lot of the volatile materials and turn it into a powder. And then from that, we would melt it, vitrify it, make glasses. So that was my first assignment. Second assignment, I went out to 100-N Area and had a great assignment there. I was a process engineer. And I was actually out there at the site when President Kennedy came in 19--I think was 1963, prior to the assassination of course--and saw him speak. And that was a great event. And N Reactor was a great reactor. It's unfortunate that we had to shut it down the way we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Do you have any specific memories from the day that President Kennedy was here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Not really, no. I definitely remember being out there and seeing him, and hearing him talk, and the helicopters, pretty routine stuff. Yeah. I had one other rotation at PRTR, Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor, where I worked on the containment system for them. But in 1964, it was announced that they were going to shut down all the reactors. And so I decided it was time for me to pick a permanent assignment. And so I went back to the waste management group. I don't know if I mentioned their names, but Al Platt and Carl Cooley were heading up that organization. And they were real pioneers for developing waste treatment technology and working with other international people like in England and France at that time. So I got in with that group and had a lot of great opportunities with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: You mentioned as early as '63 they were already starting to work on vitrification sort of technologies? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: What other sorts of technologies and waste treatment were being researched or worked on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: At that time, it was primarily calcination and vitrification and looking at three different products, either a calcine powdery dry product for final storage or either phosphate glass or borosilicate glass. And also there was a phosphate ceramic at the time. So it really hadn't been decided what was going to be the choice for the US, what direction we were going to go with the treatment technology. And in the program I was in starting a '65, we actually demonstrated with radioactive material in the 324 Building several different technologies with all these different products. And from that, we chose to go with borosilicate glass, which is the current standard for product form for high level radioactive waste. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And what led you to that sort of solution? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: The processes that we demonstrated, basically that seemed to be one of the best. We actually made it with in-can melting, a spray calciner, and in-can melter. I brought in another photograph of that showing all this equipment in the cell with the spray calciner setting over an in-can melter. And basically the product from that, the borosilicate glass, turned out to be the best product in terms of its durability. And also the process, in-can melting, was a pretty straightforward simple process to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Can you explain that a little bit, just a little detail? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. Basically we sprayed liquid waste into the spray calciner, which is heated to about 700 degrees centigrade. And as the droplets came down, they dried. And it would be hot enough to where you'd get rid of all the nitrates and convert it to oxides. And the oxides would then fall down into the melter. We had a couple different melters at the time. We were actually looking at a continuous melter, that was made out of platinum and far too expensive, and the in-can melter, which is made out of Inconel. And we would add additives, boron and silica, to the calcine, and then heat them up to over 1,000 degrees centigrade in either the melter or the in-can melter and convert to the glass. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So about what time period was this conclusion made to go with vitrification? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: The program was from '65 to '71. And so it was around 1970 that we basically decided that the borosilicate glass was the preferred route. And then things changed. And they actually didn't support doing any waste work for about a year and started it backup in 1972. And in 1972, I was recruited to be the manager for the development of the vitrification program. I was recruited by Al Platt, who I mentioned earlier and John Batch, who was one of the PhD chemical engineers out at the 100-D Reactor at the time I was there as a technician. So it kind of came back around again with one of the people that I word for earlier. So they recruited me to head up the program to further develop technology for using in the United States, for vitrifying high level waste. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So were you actually able to begin the process of [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: In '72, we started building the program with the focus on the spray calciner and in-can melter, which was the choice from that earlier program, and also decided it was time to look at something that would handle large quantities of waste, such as what they have here at Hanford. Because when you just melt in a can, you're pretty well limited in terms of size and processing rate. So in 1972, I hired an engineer, actually Battelle hired him. Hanford Labs under General Electric became the Pacific Northwest Laboratories under Battelle. And so in 1972, I was then working for Battelle. And at that time, we started developing and hiring engineers. And so one of the engineers was Chris Chapman out of Kansas. He was a mechanical engineer. And we put him in charge of developing a new melter technology, a Joule-heated ceramic melter. And to jump further ahead, the Joule-heater ceramic melter now is the heart of the waste treatment plant. There's two of them in the low activity waste facility and two in the high level waste facility. But anyway, we started developing that technology in early '70s. And by 1975, we had a prototype working in the 324 Building of a liquid-fed Joule-heated ceramic melter. And I brought in a picture of that also to share with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So that's almost 40 years ago now that you really started developing some of that technology. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. If you add that up, that's probably 41 years. So it's over 40 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, time flies. Anyway, that technology--1977--we were developing most of this technology actually for the commercial nuclear fuel cycle with the expectation that the United States would develop reprocessing and have a complete fuel cycle here. In 1977, President Carter put a moratorium on reprocessing and that just threw everything into turmoil. And fortunately, there was a gentleman by the name of Frank Baranowski that was running the Department of Energy Defense Waste sites. And he chose to pick up the technology. And so we then turned all of our efforts from the commercial fuel cycle to supporting the Defense Waste facilities. So we spent several years working with DuPont to transfer the know-how for the spray calciner and in-can melter, as well as the Joule-heated melter for use down at Savannah River. And they initially started out choosing the spray calciner and in-can melter. But after they figured that there was a huge cost savings by eliminating the tall calciner in terms of canyon height for hot cells and processing cells, they decided to go with the Joule-heated melter. So we worked with DuPont and helped them get that technology in place in the Defense Waste Processing facility at Savannah River. And it's been very successful. It's been running for about 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So you came initially in 1955-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: --and the focus at Hanford was production. And came back in the '60s. It was just about to shift to definitely reduced production, right, and then-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I guess if you look back at that, you've seen a lot of the changes in mission, changes in technology. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: In thinking back to the years you worked at Hanford and the changes, what--I mean, obviously impacted your work in terms of what you were focusing on. But the changes in technology must've impacted your work as well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. I still do a little consulting. It turned out to be a hot area, [LAUGHTER] waste management. So I'm still involved in it on a small part-time basis. I've retired two or three times. And I actually ran a small company for Battelle out there called Geosafe. We actually went out and we developed another technology called in-situ vitrification, where we literally clean up sites by putting electrodes in the ground and melting the earth and the soil. And we brought that along and made it to where it was capable of actually using the same method to melt in a large container. And so for a while here, Hanford was looking at that technology, it was called bulk vitrification, as a way of supplementing the current Vit Plant. And it's possible that that technology might still have a use here at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So you came back and '63. And then how long did you stay working at [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I worked for 30 years as an engineer and retired in '95 from Battelle. But I retired to run a small company for Battelle, the Geosafe company. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Right. In looking back at the various things you've worked on, was there a part of your work, an aspect of the work that you found most challenging or part of it that you found the most rewarding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Probably the most challenging and rewarding was trying to make things work in a hot cell. The 324 Building—which is still there and may be there for a while, because there's contamination under the cell where we were doing the processing. Making things work, making them reliable, and getting week-long tests completed without major interruptions that was very challenging and very rewarding. And it could be done. Sometimes the only way to solve the problem was to put it in a hot cell and make it work. You could spend a long time outside playing around, but you really didn't know what the issues and problems were until you put in it in there and tried to do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then also during your years at Hanford, were there any incidents that stand out or problems or events that happened that stand out in your mind above some of the others? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Hmm. Not really. I mean, some little events, but probably wouldn't want to put them on tape. [LAUGHTER] I would have to say that I am so amazed at the Manhattan Project and what they did so quickly and successfully. And even when I came here in '55 and then on in the '60s, we were able to do things pretty quickly. I mean, we could build it, put it in, test it. And somewhere '70s, '80s, things started to get too bogged down in paperwork and overly cautious. The safety culture was always there. But somehow or another the safety culture got to where it really slowed things down. And it's unfortunate. It just takes too long now to get things done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Is there any specific examples of concerns about safety or security that sort of thing that you can think of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Just the requirements for dotting the i's and crossing the t's and undergoing inspections and being afraid. I mean, I mentioned that sometimes the best way to get something done was to put it in there and make it work. Now, you can't put it in there until you're positive it's going to work. The Vit plant's a great example of that. And they have a truly big concern associated with these Pulse Jet Mixer tanks in the black cells, where they're going to be in there for 40 years. And I mean, that's a legitimate concern. But the fact is I believe that 90% of the waste could be processed without that concern. And then we're holding up the whole plant because of this other 10% of the waste. And that's frustrating. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Looking back on your time working at Hanford, how would you assess, overall, your experiences working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I had a great, great career, great experiences. A lot of memories, a lot of good memories, a lot of great people. And I raised my family here, too, my wife Carol, and daughter Toni and Jill. They're Bombers. It was Col High, Columbia High, at the time that they went to high school there. Now, it's Richland High School. And they had a great, great life and experience here also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about the relationship between Hanford the workplace and then the community. How would you describe that relationship as you were living here in the '60s and '70s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I don't know, just business as usual. I don't set it apart from any of the other businesses around the area in terms of being different or unique. So just business as usual to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wonder, is there anything I haven't asked you about yet related to your work experience at Hanford or something that you'd like to share or talk about that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I don't think so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wanted to make sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: There's probably something I'll think about later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] That happens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, of course, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today. This is a really interesting--as someone who came like you said as a--just out of high school, really. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, I think that is kind of a fortuitous event, to come directly out of high school as something like this and to be a part of history. It basically impacted my life and my future decisions of where I was going to go and what I was going to do, very positively. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then you came back in a very different capacity in many ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Well, thank you again for coming in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Okay. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I appreciate your coming and talking to us. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:28:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 198kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 325 Building 100 Area 100-D Reactor D Area 100-N Area N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-1957 1963-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1957 1963-1993 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. McEwen, Larry Batch, John Pass, Herm Platt, Al Cooley, Carl Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Chapman, Chris Baranowski, Frank Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack McElroy Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack McElroy conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-15: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region 100 Area 100-D Reactor 100-N Area 324 Building 325 Building B Reactor D Area Hanford (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffd574834b9e91334555bb134407a78ff.jpg c7a06ce1bcaa7cf7ff7b35701c99c37a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F935d35ec4e72a2fdefbfaff051d8a29d.mp4 8bcb13d04c4911f897a5aaab7e50965b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Rhoades Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Northwest Public Television | Rhoades_Jack </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Robert Bauman: Okay. We'll go ahead and start. And if we could start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure, my name is Jack L., middle initial for Lewis, Rhoades, R-H-O-A-D-E-S. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Great. Thank you very much. And my name is Bob Bauman and this is October 16th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start with, if you could talk about your family's background. What brought them here? What brought you and your family here to the Tri-Cities, and when, and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure, well my dad worked for DuPont in the early '40s--like '40, '41, '42--in a TNT plant for the war effort, and he had a college degree in chemistry. So when the Manhattan Project kicked off in late '43, he was one of the people selected out of DuPont's Joliette Plant to go down and train on the chemistry of plutonium at Clinton Works, which later became Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It was located in Oak Ridge, probably an Army Depot at the time. And when he was transferred to the Clinton Works, why, my mom and my younger sister and I—I would have been about four then—went back to the ranch in Colorado and lived with her parents until my father got transferred up here to Hanford in like April of '44. And we finally got a house, or were on line to get a house, by August '44. And so what I can remember--I mean I was a young kid, but this was pretty traumatic, all the excitement of the war effort--but my mom got a telegram, which was hand-carried out to the farm by the postman. And it just simply said, go to Denver, get on train such and such. There'll be a one-way ticket for you waiting, get off at Hinkle, Oregon and the government will take care of you from there. So it was amazing because the train had some servicemen on it, but the preponderance of people on this train were women, just like my mother, headed to Hanford with two or three screaming kids. Everybody was trying to carry a couple suitcases, trying to carry a kid or drag a kid. We got off the train in Hinkle, Oregon—which is out like the armpit of America—and it was dark. It was probably midnight. And the Green Hornets, or the old Army buses, were there with a bunch of MPs. And the soldiers were really great. They helped all the women get their luggage off and loaded us all up into buses and drove over-- course we had to go the long way around Wallula Gap to Hanford. And the parking north of the Federal Building was all administrative and dormitories. So my dad had actually been in a dormitory there with a roommate for six months. And so he was out front waiting when the bus got there, along with tens of other guys. And so his roommate had gotten moved to another room, so there was like two cots in there. And my mom and dad had one cot, and my sister and I had another cot. And we lived there for several weeks until his name came up and we moved into an F house on—it's Jadwin now, but it used to be Goethals—down in the 300 block. There used to be Campbell's Grocery Store across the street. That's the way life started for us. I was five at the time, but my birthday was in late October, so I started the first grade in Lewis and Clark, which was one of the first schools that was occupied by students because they were still building the houses toward the north. I think maybe Marcus Whitman was in place, and later on Jefferson was built. But there were so many kids that when my mother took me to school, I was assigned to go to school from 6:00 AM to noon. And then other kids came in and went from 1:00 to like 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And so nobody had a car. You just were on foot. And then of course, the government had the Green Hornet buses for transporting people around town to a limited extent, but mostly for transporting workers out to the 200 Area. My dad was actually was the first plant manager of T Canyon, which was one of the two bismuth phosphate plants for producing uranium from the fuel from B Reactor. He later became the manager of 231-Z. When they first started processing plutonium, the end result at Hanford was plutonium nitrate, and they had to reduce it. It would come out of T and B Canyons as a fluid liquid. And so 231-Z then condensed it down to like a green Jell-O, and that's what they flew to Los Alamos. And then Los Alamos actually converted the green Jell-O to the metal which went into the first Trinity explosion. And even though everybody knows about Nagasaki because of the plutonium there, there was actually a third pit that was available. And after Hiroshima, Tibbets flew back to the United States to get the third pit in case it was needed. But, fortunately, the Japanese surrendered. So after the war was over, my dad got promoted up to what was called an area supervisor. He managed all of the plutonium activities because they'd started a new building that was called 234-5, or Z Plant. And Z Plant was the plant that produced the pits during the Cold War, and that's the nuclear core. So what they made down at Los Alamos for Trinity and Nagasaki, they transferred the production and the production line up to the building in 234-5 and he was a manager of that. I remember, in later years, my dad talking about the building was divided into two parts. There was the top secret half and the secret half, and the workers didn't know who was on the other side. They had entrances from different directions and they never communicated. And the whole building had—the doors were like a bank vaults, not three foot thick, but they were steel bank vault doors. And he said he had to memorize over 100 combination locks in the building. And to him, that was one of the more challenging tasks that he had to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And how long did he work at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: We left in '50, and it ultimately caused his demise. But he had, according to the health physics people, he ended up dying of stomach cancer. And so there was a 50-50 chance that it was caused by working at Hanford. But he had developed really severe ulcers. And they eventually had to cut out half of his stomach because it just perforated and he kept almost bleeding to death. And so we moved to Texas and he went into business with one of his brothers in Odessa, Texas selling real estate and insurance. And later moved back in about 1960 and he then worked for United Nuclear, and he was a manager of extrusion press for N Reactor fuel. And then later on was hired by DOE and was a director of safety for DOE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And what was your father's name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Paul Gordon Rhoades. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And so during the war period when you were in first grade, did you have any idea of what your father was doing? What he was working on? What his job was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No, absolutely nothing. And he was absolutely paranoid about the secrecy aspect. I can remember that vividly. And I can remember when news of the bomb was released on the radio, and my mother called him on the phone out at the plant. When she said, did you know that the bomb they dropped on Japan was made in Hanford? And he slammed the phone down, wouldn't even talk to her. He viewed working at Hanford as the same way a marine would view going ashore in Iwo Jima. It was his duty. In fact, he was not really for going after the compensation stuff that I think was voted in in 2000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Did he at some point then talk about what he was doing out there? What he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Not much really. I mean, he did have anecdotes, like talking about the Green Run, when they released iodine-139. And one of the things I remember him talking about was arriving at work in a bus. And ruthenium is something that can't be filtered out in the sand filters on the plutonium processing plants, and so it would condense on the side of the towers because the chimney was so tall that it would cool off and then it'd condense on the inside of the--Well, every once in a while there'd be a change of conditions and this stuff would flake off, and go out the top of the stack, and be like snowflakes falling on the ground, and they have a short lived half-life. So the guys would get off the bus. They'd have to put on gauze mask and booties and everything, and walk into the building, and then get decontaminated before they entered the building. And then that was the start of their eight-hour shift. But there was no question that production was paramount. And there's no question in my mind that what DuPont did with the knowledge that was available in those days for designing the canyons and the reactors, was nothing short of brilliant. And even though people are upset with the environmental contamination--because we basically have got five square miles--or five by five, 25 square miles that's contaminated from the soil to the groundwater out there in the 200 Areas. But compared to what they did in Russia, which was dump it straight into the lake that fed out under the Arctic Circle, DuPont took advantage and was farsighted beyond belief in my professional estimation. I just marvel at how DuPont did on designing the reactor, and designing the canyons, and having them work safely. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You say your father didn't really talk about it a whole lot--his work—did he ever express any concerns about safety at all or was he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Never. In fact, DuPont was--as I grew up, and then as I worked later and they were down at Savannah River, and when I was working at Hanford--DuPont probably had the highest reputation for safety of any large organization in the nuclear industry. At Savannah River, if a guy climbed up a ladder, and did something stupid, and fell off and broke his arm at home, and he came to work and they found out that he had been unsafe at home, then he had time off. I mean, he was punished for what he did on the weekend because he was not thoughtful in his safety process. But DuPont, I held them in extremely high regard, high reputation. And they were, when you think about it, they did this for a dollar. They definitely were part of the war effort that sacrificed for the good of America. They weren't in it to make money or anything like that. They just were doing what they were paid to do. And they got out as soon as they could. And then they came back and did a second stint when they were asked. They were the only company that the government trusted. So they built Savannah River. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I want to go back to talking about when you first arrived and you were five years old, do you remember any sort of first impressions that you had, or early memories of first arriving in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Oh, it was, of course, for a kid in the first grade, it was exciting because everybody was the same. They were all on foot, and they were all new. In fact, that kind of curiosity anecdote was on the first day as I was walking to school with my mother, and we got about half way to the school. And another woman who's coming in on a side street, and she had a little boy. And my mother just about passed out. It turned out it was her college roommate, who they hadn't seen since she graduated from college. And they both had gone their separate ways and it ended up that they are actually living in the house behind us. And they renewed their friendship from college and it went on until they both passed away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You mentioned that in first grade, you started at 6:00 AM. There was so many children that was a way they could serve the needs of all the families with children. How long did that last? Did that last through first grade or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, it probably did last the first year. But by the time the year had gone by and as a year progressed, they were building hutments out alongside the school. So basically, the first grade was about the only time I went to school inside of a building. And maybe the sixth grade up in Jefferson, I went inside a building, but the rest of time I was always in a hutment. There were just more kids than there was space. But yeah, that was sparse. I mean, you didn't have a car. The only entertainment was playing bridge and softball. They had a very organized adult softball league, so that was the entertainment. There was no stores to buy Christmas gifts or anything. You ordered whatever you wanted out of Sears and Roebuck in July, and it got back-ordered, and you got it in the following July. But when Griggs opened over in Pasco that was a big thing because when I wanted a bike. And when my dad bought me a bike, basically, he had to borrow somebody's car. And we drove up to Yakima, and then he came home and assembled it, and turned us loose. For kids, the basic entertainment was skating. And they had concrete tennis courts up by Lewis and Clark--on the south end of Lewis and Clark--and so that was the only surface that you could roller skate on, because you had those old clamp on roller skates that you tightened with a key that just hooked on to your heel and the sole of your shoe. And so we were just constantly roller skating. There wasn't other entertainment. There was just recess at school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Were there any movie theaters, anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, there were. There were two movie theaters. And every weekend your dad gave you a dime. And you could get in for a nickel, I think, and get popcorn for a nickel or something like that. Probably everything you stood in line for—I mean everything—there was just a line beyond human belief. Like when it was haircut time, the only barbers in town at that time were down at the Allied Arts, down below Jackson's bar. And so, I don't know, they had two or three barbers in there. So Saturday morning, the boys and their fathers would show up to get their haircuts. And so there'd be a line of 100 kids. There wouldn't be no adults. They were all up at the bar playing pool and having a beer while the kids stood in line waiting to get a haircut. But when Ganzel’s came in was like night and day. Even shopping at the grocery store, you had to become friends with the butcher. If you didn't know somebody in the grocery store, and they befriended you and gave you a heads up that, hey, there's some marshmallows coming into town, why, you just did without. You ate a lot of canned fruit and vegetables and stuff like that. And people were always doing their own chickens and putting them up. But it was just pretty spartan. They gave you a house. I don't know if my dad even paid any rent. Basically, they gave him grass seed. They gave him coal. We just had a real nice house. And my parents had borrowed somebody's pickup, and they'd driven up Yakima and bought some furniture, and brought it home one piece at a time. But we lived down there on Goethals for, probably, from '44 to '49, or something like that. And then we moved up on McMurray, and then we left in '50 and went down to Odessa, Texas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: What about institutions like churches? Were there churches for people to go to on Sundays in those early years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: We didn't. It wasn't because my parents didn't believe in God, it's just like we didn't go to church. I mean, we'd have had to walk. I'm not even sure where--I honestly do not remember where the closest church would have been. I'm sure there were churches, though, because the government set off areas for parks, they set off areas for schools, they set off areas for churches, very thorough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: What about any community events that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Not much. They had Richland Days. They had like the polio March of Dimes drives. Actually it was probably after—between, let's say, '45 and '50—when Camp Hanford really had gotten established and they had moved in missile people. This was just a sizable number of soldiers up there in North Richland, but they had much better facilities for entertainment--movies and all--it was just built newer. And so even though my dad didn't serve in the service, he had a lot of friends that had been in the service, and so we could go to movies up there. And they had outside entertainment that came in that you could go to. We never did live out at Hanford or anything like that. My ex-father-in-law actually came here and he lived out at Hanford for a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So you said your family then moved away in 1950, and then came back in 1960? Your father came back? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, about ten years later he came back. I'm not too-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Did you come back at that point also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, I was in college, so I came up here after I graduated in '61 and went into the—they still had the draft at that time—so I volunteered for the Navy, and ended up flunking a hearing test and flight school. So I got washed out of flight training. And Vietnam hadn't started to build up yet so they weren't desperate for pilots. So after I got out of the Navy, I came back up here and stayed for a short while and got a job. I had a mining, engineering and geology degree, so I got a job in Colorado in a molybdenum mine, and worked there for a couple of years, and decided to go back to college and get a degree in metallurgy. And so I went to WSU and graduated from there in '65, went down to Kaiser Steel in California. By then, my dad had moved from working for the contractor into working for the AEC. Now, I'm not too sure—I'm sure he just probably just wanted me and my wife and their grandkids closer to them—but anyway, he told the people in personnel that I had a metallurgy degree. And one day I got a call from Wanda Cotner, that was the branch chief over the personnel hiring, and she asked me if I'd come up for an interview. And she said that she could give me a nice raise if I'd think about joining the AEC. So I ended up accepting the offer. And when I got my Q Clearance, I moved up here in July of '67, and worked for DOE as an individual contributor over PNLs. It was a Hanford lab. PNL, I guess, had taken over by then. They had a number of very important metallurgical programs on understanding how plutonium reacted, especially in the reactor with neutrons hitting it all the time. So I advanced very nicely. And by the early '80s, I was assistant manager for--it was then ERDA or AEC--for all the compliance programs at Hanford--that'd be safety, and QA, and environmental, and security--so all the compliance structure at Hanford. Then, probably, in about '84, I guess, I moved me over and I was assistant manager for all the nuclear operations at Hanford. So I had the 300 Area for the fuel fab for N Reactor. And we still had N Reactor running. And FFTF was starting up, we had PUREX running and T Canyon. I probably had a billion dollar budget back in the '80s just for all the nuclear operations here at the site. So we did the first comprehensive EIS that was ever done in the Department of Energy for the tank farms, built the last double shell tanks that were ever built. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And how long did you work at--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: I worked for about 20 years for DOE, and the AEC, and then I took an early retirement in, must've been like 1988. So it must have been about 21 years I worked here. So I left Hanford and went over to Idaho Falls and was as a manager over their capital construction projects. And then I got transferred to Rocky Flats. After the FBI and EPA had shut down Rocky Flats, the Department of Energy terminated the contract with the contractor. And actually they didn't even compete the contract. They just, literally, gave it to EG&G, which is almost unheard of, to not compete a major contract. So I was in charge of—they had shut down Rocky Flats operations. And so when EG&G came in, our charter was to restart the plant. And so I was the project manager over restarting the plutonium operations at Rocky Flats. I got promoted up to being assistant general manager over environmental remediation. And then I got a call from Lockheed down in Houston and they were trying to break into the DOE business. And so they hired about 20 experienced people that had worked in and outside of DOE to put together proposals to run these big contracts, whether it be Oak Ridge, or Rocky Flats, or Idaho, or Nevada Test Site. And so then I worked for Lockheed and it then became Lockheed Martin. But I worked for Lockheed from like '93 to '96, and I was a general manager of one of their environmental remediation divisions. And I transferred back up here, which was probably about the sixth or seventh time I've been through this town. But when Lockheed Martin and Fluor won the Westinghouse contract in '96, I got transferred back to Richland. So I'd made a circuitous loop that had gone from Richland to Idaho Falls to Rocky Flats outside of Denver, down to Houston, the Nevada Test Site, and the back up to Hanford. But I ended up, after I retired from Lockheed Martin, I went to work for a small business here at ATL International. They currently run the 222-S Laboratory. I was a vice president for them over all their Hanford work. Eventually, I just decided to go out on my own. So I consulted from about 2004 to the end of 2011. And by then, I looked around and all my contacts had either died or moved to Arizona or Florida. Even today, I probably don't know two human beings that are still working for a living. But this place has been--and DOE has been—absolutely a blessing to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I want to go back. So your family left in 1950. Then you came back in '67, roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No, I came back in '61. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Just for a short period of time. Just long enough to enlist in the Navy. And then when I got ready to start flight school, I took a hearing test. And believe it or not, the physical requirements for all branches of service are the same. It's just that they check people that are going to be in the Air Force or in the Navy, they just check certain things closer than they do if you want to be a marine. And so I was just borderline acceptable in the hearing. And since they had an abundance of pilots and the Vietnam War hadn't escalated or not, they ended up giving me an honorable discharge and reclassifying me as 1-Y, which is, it has to be a national emergency to call you back up. I came home and then went to Colorado and went to work in the mine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: When you came back here for the job working at Hanford, I was wondering, what ways had the community changed since you were here as a child going to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You know what, to me, at a macroscopic view of the Tri-Cities, the biggest thing that's changed is the number of people. Richland is still uptown and downtown. Kennewick is striving to open up that area between the two bridges along the river. But the biggest thing is now there are probably three times as many people. There was probably 90,000 people between the three towns early in the '50s. And now there's probably a quarter of a million people. And so the biggest changes is that the roads and streets haven't been modernized--or the stoplights--to handle triple the traffic. But the wine industry obviously is a major thing, because when I was a kid growing up here—When they talk about termination dust storms, they were not kidding, because I lived in eastern Colorado and my parents had lived through the Dust Bowl, and I knew what dust storms looked like. And when they hit Richland, your house—I remember my mother, she—when they vacuum--you've just got sweep broom and a wood floor, and your sweeping it up, and throwing it in the yard with a dust pan. But the irrigation changed all that. There's just so much more moisture going up in the air that the dust storms are few and far between. And the humidity has gone from like 10% or 15% probably to 35%. And the summers have gotten less extreme. When I was a kid, it was not unusual at all for July--from the first of July to the end of July--to be 110 to 115 degrees. I've seen it 117 degrees here. And now, just look at this last summer, we had a few days of 101 or 103. But the climate has mellowed out with the extremes. Like in '48, the Columbia River froze clear across from side to side. You could drive a truck across it. The same year as the big flood. So the extremes have gone away. And instead of the real dips and curves a sinusoidal curve, it's more shallow extremes. But the fact that they now have Meadow Springs, and they have Clipper Ridge, and West Richland, of course, has expanded from a nothing. When I was a kid there was just basically a few people that liked to have farmland lived out there. There was probably as many people living in Yakima as there was in Richland, because they couldn't build houses fast enough. And those that worked in the 100 Areas or the 200 Areas, it was just as close to come in from Yakima as it was to drive from Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You talk about a number memories from your childhood, are there any other things, events, or particular memories that really stand out from those early years in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You had to make your entertainment. And you had to wait in line for everything, including getting a car. Jeez, it must have been '48 before we got a car. And in the Sunday paper there was an ad that said, call a number in Seattle, and get on a list for a Buick. And so my mother did that. And about six months later we got a call and said come pick up your car. We got on a train over in Pasco that just had wood benches in it, and we went over Snoqualmie to Seattle, and got this new '48 Buick, and drove it home over Snoqualmie Pass. People from all over the neighborhood were kind of ogling this car because anybody else that had a car basically were driving some pre-1940 model, because during the '40s they didn't make cars. But that was a vast improvement for us to have our own wheels. But self-made entertainment. When we lived up on McMurray—of course, all these guys that came here from the '30s and '40s, all the entertainment they had as they grew up as kids was self-made also. So playing pool was a big activity. And so my dad bought a pool table over in Pasco, and we had it in the basement. And on the weekend, he and all of his buddies iced down beer and played kelly pool all afternoon, that was the entertainment. And probably that night those same guys, with their wives, had a little potluck at somebody's house and played Bridge. My parents played bridge all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you, then, also about your working at Hanford. Hanford for so long focused on production. You mentioned that production, production. At some point, of course, it shifted to cleanup. I wondered if that shift impacted your work at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, by the time I left Hanford it was still in a reduced production mode. The writing was on the wall that environmental restoration was the future of Hanford, not production. We fought to keep N Reactor going because it was dual purpose. But especially when they passed the RCRA, or Resource Conservation Recovery Act, that was the first major commitment by the US Government for an environmental cleanup. And they sent that law, or bill, out to all the field offices and asked for the field offices to comment on what effect it would have on their operations. And Dixy Lee Ray was the commissioner at the time. And I must've been a director of safety at the time. So we got together with the contractors and we labored over this. And fortunately, I have a knack of being able to synthesize complicated things into a very concise statement. And when we got through reviewing this, I wrote a letter for the manager of the field office. And it was about this long, and it simply said, this will shut down nuclear pit production for the United States of America. And from that point on it was one lawsuit after another as Congress tried to extend its will on the defense industry. But at the time, like when I was a Rocky Flats, the reason they were so anxious to restart that plant that was the only plant in all of DOE complex that didn't have two--like there was Hanford and Savannah River, there was Los Alamos and Livermore Design Lab. So there was a duality in everything. But when they removed the pit production from Hanford, instead having pit production at Savannah River and Hanford both, they built a new plant at Rocky Flats. And it was the only plant that made pits. And so it was a choke point. And when the FBI and EPA shut that plant down, basically, we had nuclear subs that were out in the ocean with 20 missiles and there was no spear point on the end of the spear. They were not loaded because we were not making pits. So that was why the defense industry was fighting with Congress on the environmental cleanup was because we were not in a good defensible position nuclear-wise during that Cold War years if we had the boomers out in the ocean that didn't have a number of warheads on top of them. And that's why EG&G got the contract because DOE believed that they could restart the plant and start making these pits. So even though the environmental law was saying you should be shifting quickly to environmental restoration at Rocky Flats, the headquarters people over defense programs were telling you under the table, get this plant running. We need these pits for the defense of America. So it was real catch-22 for the management of the Rocky Flats plant. But eventually, it became obvious that they were never going to restart the plant and so everybody shifted into a full environmental restoration mode. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: During your years working here at Hanford, what would you consider some of the more challenging aspects of your job, the work you were doing here, and maybe some of the most rewarding aspects of your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, you know--[SIGH] I mean, rewarding is a hard thing to define because that was one of the primary reasons I took early retirement. Let me just use Yucca Mountain as an example. When I hired into the AEC in '67, the United States Government was looking for a repository for nuclear fuel in Lyons, Kansas. So that was '67, and here we are, 2013, and we're no closer to solving that national problem today than we were 40 years ago. So the satisfaction that comes with mission accomplished was always very difficult to achieve. It was more of a case of frustration on my part that the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. If I was going to go any higher in DOE, I would have to go to Washington, DC. Because I was already an SES and that's as high as you could go without a congressional appointment. But the most challenging thing was that when Alex Fremling came in to be the manager of DOE, he brought a complete new, fresh environmental sensitive outlook to the plant. And so trying to deal with the public interface over leaking tanks—106-T was a big bump in my career. I went from a nobody to a branch chief just with one tank leak. [LAUGHTER] But he was very environmental conscious and he was very safety conscious. And so he ratcheted the whole system up, not just one notch, but numerous notches. Because when they built the nuclear industry, they did not have safety standards for the nuclear industry, because it was a brand new industry. So if you looked at the operation of the uranium side, then they used the safety standards of a steel mill and a blast furnace to do the safety standards for Fernald and these other uranium enrichment places. And if you look at the chemical processing in the canyons, they looked to the petroleum cracking industry for safety standards. And if you look to the waste disposal, which was the operation of the tank farms and the burial grounds, it had the same basic safety standards and the interest as a commercial landfill. And so it wasn't until the nuclear Navy was born and Rickover installed a completely different safety philosophy because he was going to have 200, or 300, or 400 sailor—lives were dependent on everything functioning perfectly. And Alex Fremling was bright enough and young enough to recognize that. And he brought that standard into Hanford. So there was just a real crash program on upgrading the operational procedures for tank farms and other waste disposals. Skin contaminations were accepted as—like a guy working on your car, he accepts the fact that his hands are going to get greasy. But Alex didn't accept that. He said, you know, we're going to have zero accidents. And we're going to have zero skin contaminations. We're going to be open with the public on any of these tank leaks. And the problem was we didn't have, really, the skill to measure how these tanks were doing—whether we're losing material or not losing material. And even though you could measure the depth, the interest of whether it was unacceptable to leak was not there. And the reason for that was that when the first tanks were built, they were built in 12. So there's four rows of three, and the separation process was simply a settling process. So the waste would come into the first tank and fill up, and the solids would drift to the bottom. And then it'd overflow into the second tank, another lighter batch of solids. And then it would flow into the third tank, and more solids would fall out. Then it would flow into the ground. And so if you're putting stuff in the ground for ten or 15 years, and using nine exchange properties of the soil to capture the radionuclides, then what's the big deal about a tank leaking a little extra waste? You've already put a billion gallons of stuff into the soil, what's another 100,000 gallons? So that was the mentality that Alex faced with the contractors when he came to Hanford. I give him credit. He single-handedly changed that. And he took on the challenge to do the very first environmental impact statement on tank waste for the whole agency. He was the guinea pig. He was the front runner, or the blazer, for the DOE on environmental issues. And so I honestly think that Hanford, even though, because of the design of the plants, there was no way to retrofit these plants to not discharge stuff to the soil, but there was a way to monitor it better and be more acutely aware of occurrences that you didn't want to occur. Whether it was stuff leaking on the ground on top of the tank, or whether it was stuff leaking into the ground through the bottom of the tank. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So what time period are you talking about here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: This would have been in late '70s up to, probably, '87. And Mike Lawrence came in '87. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And it's Alex Fremling? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yes, Fremling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: How do you spell the last name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: F-R-E-M-L-I-N-G. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So that's when you noticed a shift definitely taking place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No question. I was a student of, that instead of resisting these changes, I embraced these changes and I was rewarded for that. But the mentality of the DOE—or it was ERDA at that time, but the mentality of the workers in ERDA were no different than the mentality in the contractors. I mean, we'd been doing it this way for 30 years, why are we changing? He conducted the first operational readiness review probably in the nation for startup nuclear facilities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: How were you able to change that mentality I guess into the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You know what, I'd say, probably, through the award-fee process. It's through the money. When I first got here, contractors had contracts, but there was never any real evaluation of whether they deserved their fee or didn't deserve their fee. So once we instituted an award-fee process in which we itemized the areas for improvement, then quantified A, B, C or D or F, you could then quantify. If they had $10 million fee that's up for grabs for this quarter or this six month period, you could quantify how well they did to meet those goals. So it was very intense and it was a steep learning curve, but it produced results. And we changed contractors, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Mm-hmm, right. So this was when you would have been in charge of compliance programs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: First, yeah. After I was a branch chief, I was an assistant division director. Basically all of my career was in nuclear operations, especially with the tank farms. And even though I moved over to be the director of safety, and then on to be the system manager for compliance, you were just viewing operations from an independent standpoint. You didn't direct nuclear operations, but you did appraisals, and you did audits, and you did oversight, and you graded a contractor on his performance independent from operations. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Was it during your time there, I mean, at some point of course there were a lot of questions raised about the tanks. And in terms of the public, questions about tanks leaking and that sort of thing. Did you have to deal with any of that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Listen, I spent—if I wasn't making presentations to the public or defending our actions to the public, I was doing so in front of Congress. There was constant barrage and it was difficult to communicate because by this time the environmental support groups were springing up to put pressure on DOE to perform and to clean up and to accelerate. And, of course, you control certain things, but you don't control your budget. Congress controls your budget. And so it was difficult at best, and it was contentious. It's constantly contentious because it was like I was speaking in English and they were listening in Greek. We couldn't communicate, because they were just totally upset with what the government had done to end the war. They forgot that what was the end result was stop the war and save millions of lives in the invasion of Japan. And they had forgotten that. And it was just on the bad things that have been done to the environment. And I'd be the first to agree to that--I don't think that in hindsight, if you went back and re-ran it ten times in hindsight, I don't think anything would have changed. Because the same pressure to beat the Germans to the nuclear bomb and the same pressure to end the war in the Pacific would not change. And so you'd only have the capability to do what your technology was advanced enough to do at that time and place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I wonder if there's anything that you haven't talked about, or I haven't asked about yet, either in terms of your years growing up here as a young child, or your father's work, or your work at Hanford, that you'd like to talk about, or think it would be important to talk about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: I would just simply say that I think that the people and the contractors in the government, as well as contractors, have always given 100% to do the right thing. And they don't get much praise. And they are constantly vilified because they're missing milestones and stuff like that. But there is just some extremely technically challenging work to be done out there. It's been a flywheel for this site since 1943, and it's going to continue out probably to 2075. But they'll never clean the site up, and they'll never walk away from it. They'll have some 25-square-mile pad out there that has all kinds of markings on it, don't drill here. But they're making tremendous strides in cleaning up the groundwater and removing the stuff along the river. I never dreamed in my wildest dreams that they could clean up all the burial grounds and trenches along the river and the buildings. Each one of those reactors had the facilities enough to run a small city, and now all that's left is a cube. You could paint dots on it or something like rolling dice across the prairie. But I just think it's been remarkable how much they've cleaned up and how safely they've done it. You don't ever read of anybody getting killed out there, or maimed out there, and they're still using a lot of heavy equipment. The safety standards are extremely high and it’s part of the reward, the carrot in front of the donkey. If you're safe and have a good safety record and you make progress, you get your fee. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: --for coming and talking to us today and sharing your memories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Great, thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:30 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 180 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area 100 Area Z Plant N Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Fast Flux Test Facility B Reactor 234-5 Building 222-S Laboratory Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1967-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1967-1988 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Rhoades, Paul Cotner, Wanda Ray, Dixy Lawrence, Mike Fremling, Alex Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Rhoades Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Rhoades conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/16/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 222-S Laboratory 234-5 building 300 Area B Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash. Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Richland (Wash.) Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe26df614e3983937f53e1f1a7027434c.jpg f4e5b3c5f3bc506182839172268381f0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb87c3f679c8cf9ce2170c0960303f877.mp4 c3516f3a17dbf85ccf98fa55841740fe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Selby Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Selby conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8938a4900744d564518bc93d898f6b2d.jpg 551b6009d403d2bd6e8f2a60ec34167a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Anderson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: We are rolling. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with James Anderson on March 14, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Anderson: James Daniel Anderson. J-A-M-E-S, D-A-N-I-E-L, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. Franklin: Great, thank you, Jim. And so tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site? Anderson: Okay. I was born in Denver. And when I was in my fourth year, my dad worked for DuPont, which was Remington Arms back there, and they transferred him out here to this new secret project. Franklin: What year would this have been? Anderson: That would’ve been ’44, early ’44. Franklin: Okay, so you were born in 1940? Anderson: I was born in ’39, actually. I turned five after we got here. Franklin: Okay, sure, sure. Anderson: So. And my dad was a machinist. He came to Hanford making the first fuels that went to B Reactor. I remember this story, he’s told it many a time, but he hated machining uranium, because it was hard in spots and it was soft in spots. So you could gouge deeply or you might not cut enough. So the filings would go on the floor. Back then, they didn’t have protective clothing then. It was just, do the work. He and another guy that worked there got some uranium filings stuck in the soles of their shoes. So they went to the movies one night. On the way to the movies, they were looking at their feet and they were sparking. That was from the uranium filings that was embedded in their shoes. Uranium is somewhat pyrophoric. So they learned early on about that. Franklin: Sorry, pyrophoric, what is that exactly? Anderson: It’s burnable, basically. And it can sometimes catch fire on its own. Franklin: Oh, wow. I guess that’s what makes it such a good fuel. Anderson: Well, when I was in grade school, I knew I wanted to be a chemist. So we used to make pyrophoric materials: firecrackers, bombs, rockets, and things like that. So I’m somewhat familiar with that. Down at the Richland Library, you could get books on it. They had them there. They’d give you the formulas and everything. Being a kid, I used to go to the pharmacist and get my chemicals. When we’d go on vacation, like to Denver or Seattle or something, they had the chemical companies there, I’d go down and I’d get whatever I needed. Nobody asked me, questioned me or anything. I just did it. So we used to make gunpowder and stuff like that. I even made, from an Erector Set, a rocket that would go around in a circle. We had chemical fuses, so that we knew about how long it would take for it to self-ignite. And it didn’t go. So I went there and I put some more potassium permanganate on it, and it took off. The exhaust hit my shirt, and needless to say, I was on fire for a short period of time. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: That wasn’t so bad, but going home, Mom did not like that. So, I had a good lecture and so forth. [LAUGHTER] But—go ahead. Franklin: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you go ahead. Anderson: But I always enjoyed that. When I was a kid, Richland looked like a battlefield. There was no grass, only trees where there had been orchards. When the wind blew, I mean, they used to say, on a clear day, you can see the house across the street. That was pretty much true. And that stuff was so fine, it would go in the windowsills and just settle. They also called them termination winds. Because a lot of ladies came to meet their husbands that had been working here, and after one of those storms, they’d say, honey, I’m leaving. If you want to stay married, you’re coming with me. So that happened. But we lived at the hotel down here in Richland until our house was ready, and then we moved in. We were a few days later than our neighbors; we were in a B house. So in 1957 or thereabouts when they sold the town, they had first priority and of course they bought the house. So we had to move and find another house. So that was very interesting. My boyfriend and I would crawl under the porches and stuff, and we would find spiders galore, especially the ones with the red hourglass. So we used to play with those, you know. And of course our parents always told us, no. But one of those black widows, when we were playing across the street from where I lived, it was still wild out there; there wasn’t grass or anything, and one of them crawled up my leg. I felt it, and I thought, uh-oh, I’m in trouble. So I thought, well, if I jump up and down as hard as I can, it’ll fall out. And it did. And I never played with them after that. But it was funny, my mother would get a stick that looked like, as a kid, about ten-foot long, and she’d get the spider on the end of it, and she’d walk across the street where she was going to kill it. As she was walking, the spider would crawl on the stick towards her. The closer it got, the faster she went. [LAUGHTER] And then when she got there, the spider was no more. But it was fun for kids in those days. And in fact, the streets were none. They were just dirt. G-W was dirt. So it was kind of interesting, you know. And in summer when it was real hot and real dry, that stuff was very powdery. I can remember walking to the grocery store and coming back, and in the inside of my pant legs were covered with that dust. So it was fun. I enjoyed that. We used to go down by Fred Meyer and that was a swamp back then. I don’t know if you guys knew that or not, but they got a pump house down there, too, and they used to—but there were frogs galore, polliwogs, cattails, you name it. It was a good place for boys to play, and we did. And I can remember, we’d take these home, and they’d change into frogs, obviously. And then we’d let them loose, and a lot of them would bury themselves in the flower gardens. I can remember my dad in the spring hoeing around the bushes and so forth, and every so often, out would come a frog. [LAUGHTER] But that was fun, just to go down there and play and stuff. Most people didn’t even lock their doors. I mean, everybody had Q clearances. I don’t know if they were called Q clearances when I was a kid. I remember this place was so hush-hush, I never knew what my dad did. Even after they announced the bomb had been dropped. I can remember, he never said anything about his job or what he did. And when I, years later, when I went to work at Hanford, I got to go visit him where he worked. So I got to learn what he did. He was in the water plant. Franklin: Was he still working at Hanford when you started at Hanford? Anderson: Oh, yeah. He retired from N Reactor. Franklin: Okay. When your father started, you said early on he started as a fuels fabrication for B Reactor, and what area was he working out of then? Anderson: That was 300 Area. Franklin: Okay, and how long did he do that for? Anderson: Oh, not very long. He hated it, and so he transferred out to B Reactor. He was out at B Reactor when they had their startup problems. And then he was there when they solved the problem and away they went. DuPont always over-designed, as far as I know, their work that they did. Of course, they were told so many tubes for the reactor, and they made about twice as many. So when they—I think it was Enrico Fermi went into the room—with the slide rule, you know, we didn’t have computers—and he determined what it was, and he came up with the term “barns.” So he discovered what it was and then they filled all the rest of the tubes up and away they went. That was an exciting time. Dad remembers when that happened. Franklin: And what did he do at B Reactor? Anderson: He was in the water plant. They would pump the water out of the river, clean it up, and pass it through the reactor. From there, it would go into cooling or whatever and then eventually it would go back into the river. I can remember—now this is aside from that, but the Columbia River flows over some uranium fields. I don’t know if you knew that. I think they’re up in Canada. But because of all the reactors on the river, and they cleaned it up to run it through, there was more uranium in the water coming into the Site than there was leaving the Site. Franklin: Hmm. Anderson: And the place he worked, I’ll tell you, it was hot. It was steam as well as the water purification. He always loved a hot house. And of course, none of the rest of us in the family really enjoyed that. [LAUGHTER] But when it got down to 90 or 80, that was starting to get cold. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Yeah, he was— Franklin: I guess he must’ve liked summers in Richland without air conditioning. Anderson: Well, in fact, when we came we had no air conditioning. Eventually we got swamp coolers. You could leave the front door open and cool the house down. Humidity back then was something like 5%. Of course, as they put in the crops and stuff up the valley, then the humidity went up and they weren’t quite as efficient anymore. But I can remember when we put our first one in. Oh, that felt so good. Franklin: Yeah, makes a big difference, just water evaporation makes a big difference. So you—what type of Alphabet house did your family move into? Anderson: We moved into a B house. Franklin: Okay. That’s the two-story or a one-story? Anderson: It’s a one-story duplex. And back then, in the basement, they had a little room, if you will, for coal. So the company would supply you with the coal. Whenever you wanted it, you’d call them up and say, I want some coal, and they’d bring it to you. And then you’d have to stoke the furnace and so forth. Later on a lot of them put in an automatic feed into the furnace. Once in a while, those would catch fire. Sometimes that coal would make a gas in there and it would blow up. The door, of course, would swing open when it would. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It sounds really dangerous. Anderson: It sounds it, but it wasn’t that bad. But a lot of people got rid of coal when they sold the homes and stuff. And then they did whatever they wanted, electrical baseboards and so forth. Franklin: What was your overall impression of the Alphabet houses? Anderson: Well, they are all basically look-alikes. I mean, you may have an A and a B and stuff close together, or a C or whatever. But when you get down to it, one section of the block could be the same as the other side of the block. This is stories I’ve heard, a lot of the men—especially the men—would come home from having a party down at the tavern or whatever, and since most people didn’t lock the doors, they would just go inside, because they knew each house was the same. They’d go and start to get ready for bed, and of course when they discovered that the wife was not his—[LAUGHTER] they immediately left. So. Franklin: What about the quality of construction or how it was like to live in an Alphabet house? What were your impressions on that? Anderson: Actually, the construction for the Alphabet houses was pretty high, I think. They used good wood. Now, they didn’t put a lot of insulation in a lot of houses. And so a lot of people had to come back and add insulation. I have a Q house now. It just had a foil strip between the sheetrock and the wall and that was the insulation. Supposedly, it would reflect it. So when I bought the house, I had to add insulation to it. Franklin: It says here that DuPont grouped workers together from different sites they were transferred from, so that your father or mother knew a lot of their neighbors when they moved to Richland. Anderson: Yes, in fact, I lived on the south end of town, and everybody around where I lived was from Denver. Franklin: Oh. Anderson: And so they did that because it made it kind of feel like home. Franklin: Sure, just some semblance of familiarity or, you know. Anderson: Yes. What was across from the Uptown district, there were a lot of people there from Salt Lake, because that was another DuPont site. They used to call that Little Salt Lake. [LAUGHTER] My dad had a friend that he worked with back in Colorado, and he worked up here as well. He came up here. And those two were friends, best friends, for 77 years. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So my dad died first, and so he was—my dad died at 92 and his buddy died a couple years later. Franklin: Why do you think your family decided to stay after World War II? Anderson: Well, actually, the benefits, you know. Your homes, to begin with, were free. And if you wanted your house painted or whatever, you could do that. So there was a lot of benefits to stay. You didn’t have to pay rent and stuff like that. So it was nice. Once you made friends, and of course, where we lived, it was from Colorado area, then a lot of people didn’t want to stay. There were some that left. I’ll be honest. They wanted to go back where their relatives were or whatever. I’d say at least half of them came back. [LAUGHTER] They thought this was a better place. Franklin: Was your family from Colorado originally? Anderson: Yes. My dad was born in Colorado and so was my mother. Franklin: So growing up, you went to all of the Richland area schools, right? Lewis and Clark, Carmichael and then Columbia High, right? Anderson: Yes. In fact—just a second—there was—you know, we’d go to school, and we’d see somebody new, it was always, where are you from? There was something like a handful of kids that were from this area. By the time I graduated from high school, we had over 1,000 there. I’d guess just about half—I mean, not half—about a handful or so in number were actually born here. I belong to the Rambling Rovers right now which is an old-timers group. The school that’s still out at Hanford—I mean, it’s just a shell, but—eventually, the town got so big and stuff, they used it for a grade school rather than the high school. So, yeah, it was fun. The only problem is they opened Chief Jo up the same time as we had Carmichael. We used to play each other in basketball. They had the all-stars, if you will, in their school. When we’d play them, we’d lose by tons of points. When we got to the high school, on the starting basketball team, four were from Chief Jo; one from Carmichael. Originally, when they built Carmichael, they were originally planning on putting a pool underneath the basketball court. That never materialized. Franklin: What do you remember about civil defense in school? Anderson: Yes. We did have some civil defense activities. The main thing I really remember was all around town were these sirens. They always tested at the same time each month. I don’t remember exactly, but it seemed to me it was like the last day of the month. Franklin: And these were evacuation sirens, or air raid? Anderson: Either. They would wail or they could go straight. And those were loud. I mean, loud. In back of Fred Meyer, up on the hill there, was the one that was closest to our house. But then they took all of them down, and it was normal, I guess you’d say, again. Franklin: Do you remember doing duck-and-cover? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: And can you describe that? Like, what would happen in the classroom and what was that to protect against? Anderson: Well, I can remember—you’d crawl underneath a desk, so that falling debris and stuff would not have as great a chance to hurt you. The biggest thing I hated in grade school was kindergarten. They had mats, and you had to take a rest period during kindergarten. You know, I gave up naps like when I was two or so. And you go back to school and they wanted you to lay on the gym floor on those mats. That was horrible. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That was worse than the duck-and-cover? Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So you eventually graduated high school, yeah? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: As a Columbia High Bomber. Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And you went to WSU. Anderson: Yes, I did. Franklin: And what did you go for? Anderson: Well, when I went to Wazzu, I knew, as I said earlier, that I wanted to be a chemist. So I went up there and I took the chemistry courses. For a couple years, I took nuclear chemistry and radio chemistry. There were some funny stories on that, like my first year up there—and I hadn’t worked at Hanford yet and didn’t know what hot meant. Hot meant radioactive out here. So somebody went to get a piece of glassware, and they said, don’t touch it, it’s hot. He thought it was radioactive, and he just dropped it on the floor. [LAUGHTER] So that did happen. That was funny. We even had a couple—well, we had a reactor up there. I don’t know if you knew that or not. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: But we, for instance, took gold foil and irradiated it as one of our projects and we’d have to go back and determine its half life and so on. We did that to calibrate our instruments, things like that. And then our senior year, we had radiochemistry, which is more like theoretical physics or something like that. Our instructor—I always got a kick out of him—he’d give us an exam. He’d have about ten questions on it, and we’d have an hour to do it in, you know. Pretty soon he’d say, how many are halfway through the exam? No hands. Eventually he’d get down to, how many got one done? And he’d get no hands. And he’d say, well, okay, let’s make this a take-home test. And you’d take it home, and you spent the whole weekend doing it. I mean—[LAUGHTER] And then we had to—in the one where we would have all the instrumentation and so forth and did all of our experiments, we had to do longhand procedures. That would be like 10, 15, 20 pages long. Every week, we had to do one. Sometimes we’d laugh and joke that, you know, the further they could throw them up a step, the better the grade. But most of them were really more interested in why you didn’t get the correct result. So your error portion of the write-up was very important and critical. But I enjoyed chemistry up there. And of course, after school, there were a lot of things you could do with chemistry. Franklin: Such as? Anderson: Oh, this was a guy down the hall. He and I were in the same class, but he made some ammonium triiodide, and he painted it on the rubber tips of the seats in the toilet. And they would dry, and then somebody like at 2:00 in the morning would have to go in there and sit, and it’d blow up. And sometimes he’d squirt it in the key locks. You’d put your key in there, and the friction would set it off. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] It wasn’t like a large explosion, right? Anderson: No. Franklin: Just kind of like a little—but enough, probably to startle somebody. Anderson: Oh, especially in the morning, when you’re still asleep. Franklin: Oh, wow. Anderson: But yeah. And I tried to make some rockets there, and I set one off in the room. The ceiling was all speckled. Franklin: Oh, wow. You must’ve liked to have a lot of fun, huh? Anderson: Oh, it was fun, yeah. I enjoyed it up there. Franklin: And so when did you graduate? Anderson: Graduated in ’62. Franklin: ’62, okay, and then you started at Hanford Labs. Anderson: Right. Actually, I went up to the Seattle World’s Fair up there. Then I came back and went to work. So it was in June of ’62 that I started down here. I was in the tech grad program, which started out at the 300 Area for me. You were interviewed, and depending upon what your choice was would depend on where you started work. But I started work in 300 Area. The PRTR Reactor was there. I worked in the water lab. I also worked out at the 100-K Area, and they had a water lab out there. So I had to substitute for the guy that was responsible for those when he’d go on vacation or whatever. So I’d spend half a day at PRTR and the other half of the day at K. I’d pick up the car down at the Federal Building and check it out, and I’d have it all day for my activities. Franklin: And what was—what did PRTR stand for? Anderson: Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. The one big thing I remember about that, it was—it used heavy water for the moderator and so forth. But there were jugs—and I mean jugs—of heavy water lining the hallways throughout that whole reactor building. I mean. And that stuff is very expensive. Franklin: What was the job of that reactor? What did it do? Anderson: It was supposed to determine how you can recycle plutonium in a reactor. Rather than enriching uranium, or some other technique. So it was real nice that way, but they did—I can’t remember exactly what the mistake was in there, but they got it all contaminated. [LAUGHTER] So it didn’t last much longer. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: They came out with the FFTF and stuff like that, and a lot of people—I had a father-in-law back then that was a heating and ventilating engineer, and he—DOE kept chiding Battelle down there to get going and get that reactor going. They had to send out the prints and stuff like that to the commercial reactor manufacturers and get their input so that we could demonstrate something that they were interested in. Oftentimes, he said, the requests were 180 degrees apart. [LAUGHTER] So it really slowed them down to do that. They finally gave it to Westinghouse, who finished it. Franklin: So you said you worked at PRTR and then in the water lab. Anderson: Yeah, they had a water lab in PRTR. They’d take samples of the reactor effluence and stuff like that. Franklin: And do what with it? Anderson: Analyze it to see if there’s radiation in it, if there’s any cross-contamination, or if there’s impurities in it. Because sometimes impurities can corrode or whatever. So you want to make sure those are taken care of. Franklin: And so how long did you work this kind of split-shift between PRTR and the water lab? Anderson: Well, I worked in the water lab at PRTR the whole time. Franklin: Oh, okay, sorry. Anderson: That’s okay. But, yeah, I did that—he went on vacation three times or so, so I probably had a month’s work there. Franklin: And what other jobs did you have out at Hanford? Anderson: Oh, I had a chance to work at B Reactor, as a matter of fact. I interviewed out there. The manager out there made it sound like utopia, you know? You’re going to do this, you’re going to write these reports, and your name’s going to be out there in blinking lights. He didn’t say that, but he made it sound grand and glorious. And I thought—I just had a gut feeling, don’t go to work there. Smart move, because they shut it down. But so I went to 234-5 Building, which is the plutonium building. I had three main jobs there. The first one was in the Process Laboratory. There, I got to handle plutonium. That’s quite a thrill. Then we did a lot of analysis for operations so that they could control the process and so forth. Then, I was asked up to do the carbon machine. I tore it apart, and I was getting ready to put it back together and make some modifications. The shift manager at Dash-5, he ended up with diabetes. And so they had to remove him from the shift for a period of time while he got that under control. So they sent me down there to take his place. Well, I never had worked with union before. Now, I don’t know if you guys have or not, but I had to make a transfer from a tank to one of the cribs outside. So I couldn’t find the operator, so I did it. Well, I got my grievance, and I lost that one, obviously. I’ve had a couple other grievances, too, and I won those. [LAUGHTER] But that was interesting, to do that. So I was working shift work doing that. We had to make the buttons, the plutonium buttons. We’d get the plutonium feed material from either PUREX or REDOX. And then we’d run it through the plant. We had a screw system there and you could backflow the gasses over and stuff like that to come up with your product. We ended up with plutonium fluoride. And then we’d have a crucible that we’d put that stuff in, and we’d add a little iodine and calcium and heat it up and then the reaction would take place. The plutonium would go to the bottom into a little, I guess you’d call it, kind of like a little cup in the bottom, so it would all be in there. Now, this is something that I had never thought of until I was in the burial grounds, but those crucibles were made out of ceramic material. They were manufactured by Coors. Coors beer. They were, and I guess they still are, one of the top qualified manufacturers of that material. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: So that stuff back then was a classified secret and so forth. So we had a lot of waste from Coors in Colorado, which is non-rad, go to the burial grounds because it was classified. So if a lot of people think, you know, everything out there is rad, well, that’s not so. But, yeah, we did a lot with that. And then from there, I went down to the Research Laboratory. I had to make plutonium chloride material for Rocky Flats. I have no idea what they did with it. It was one of those things, you know, here it is, we give it to them, and we don’t talk about it. Franklin: Don’t ask too many questions? Anderson: Right. But we used phosgene gas, and we used these in cylinders. You’d heat it up and you’d pass the gas through it, and it would change the oxide to the chloride. Now, phosgene gas is very poisonous. And that used to be one of those trench gases they had during, what was it, the First World War and stuff like that. And it’s supposed to smell, and it does smell like freshly mown hay. You don’t want to breathe it, that’s for sure. But every so often, a whiff would come by. I did have a couple slight smells of it. Franklin: Did it make you sick? Anderson: No. Franklin: Oh. Anderson: It wasn’t that concentrated, I guess I’d say. Franklin: Was it a neural agent? Is that what it does? And how does plutonium chloride differ—is it like—it’s not a liquid—is it solid or powder? What kind of form is it? Anderson: It’s a powder. Franklin: It’s a powder, okay. Anderson: Chloride’s got more atoms in it—not atoms—neutrons and protons than fluoride does. So it’s a lot different from it. Now, the thing that I had a—I didn’t have a problem with it, but it was my first time in dealing with kg quantities of plutonium. We had holes in the hood so we could put these canisters in there. I had something like, what, 20kgs of plutonium in there. And I’m sitting there, thinking, you know, I hope those critical mass people know what they’re talking about. [LAUGHTER] Because, you know, you think, you’re okay, as long as you don’t do something. But if you drop it, what do you do? And that led to other questions, because eventually when I was in operations, I got to have all the combinations and stuff for the vaults that stored plutonium. You could only have two people go in a vault at once. That’s because we are contained of water—“we are contained of water”? Our body has a lot of water in it. So that’s a good moderator, so you don’t want too many people going around. And then of course the cans are the size of a tuna fish can and they had them on posts in there in the safe. Go ahead. Franklin: I’m sorry, I’m just curious about this water thing. What role would the water play around plutonium? Anderson: Neutrons. It moderates the neutrons. Franklin: Okay, so how would—wait, so, you could start a chain reaction then— Anderson: Yes. Franklin: --with water in the—oh, okay. Anderson: Yeah, and you didn’t want that. Franklin: No. You usually—well, you only want it when it’s intentional. Anderson: Yeah, like in a reactor or whatever. Now, one other thing that was interesting is they had a criticality shortly before I went over there at Dash-5. So we didn’t have a way to recycle plutonium. And so a lot of plutonium went into storage. Not just in the vaults, because we ran out of that. We had igloos on the other side of West Area. There were seven igloos there and we stored plutonium in there. Periodically, when I was on shift, taking that supervisor’s place, then we would go out there and we’d check it and see what’s going on. In one place, in one of the igloos—these were left over from the Army, by the way— Franklin: Yeah, I’m sorry, when you say igloo, what kind of structure are you referring to? Anderson: It’s basically a metal building that’s in an arch shape. It’s not square-shaped— Franklin: Oh, like a Quonset hut. Anderson: Yeah, like a Quonset hut. But it’s covered with dirt. Franklin: So kind of like either built into a side or—it kind of blends in—that’s so it’s insulated, right? Anderson: Well, yeah, but you know the military was out here for a long time and they kept ammo and stuff in there. So you wanted them to be pretty well-protected. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: And then the front of it, for instance, was made out of concrete. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And there’s a door in there and so on. We went to radiation monitoring to get some support. They were not accommodating, let’s put it that way. So I and two operators went out there, and we found that there was some liquid organic material that was packaged in there. Apparently, it had fizzed, and it had come up and eaten its way through the plastic barrier, and then it just kind of rolled onto the floor. Then it went all the way over into the gutter. That was pretty high in plutonium, let’s put it that way. The mice had gotten in there and tracked it all over. Franklin: Oooh. Anderson: And their droppings were hot. And I and another guy got contaminated in there. You had to wear two pairs of rubber gloves and then you had to wear a thick latex glove on top of that. And the moment you touched that organic, it would go right through. So you started peeling the gloves off. Franklin: Wow. You mean it would eat right through the glove? Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, two of us went back with a very minimal count on our hands, and radiation monitoring raised a fit on it. And I said, well, we asked you, but you wouldn’t take it. So from that time on, we had monitors out there. Franklin: What happened to the rats? Were their bodies found, or did they somehow maybe go further up in the food chain, or--? Anderson: No, we never found a rat or mouse. Franklin: Just the tracks and the droppings? Anderson: Mm-hmm, mainly the droppings. And I got an idea that stuff killed them. I mean, if it goes right through gloves… Franklin: Yeah. Wow. Anderson: So, in fact, years later, after I retired and I went back to work out there, I had somebody call me up, and we went out there to look where all those had been and stuff, because they’ve all been removed. There’s no igloos out there anymore. Franklin: And what—was there any trace of them, or any trace of the accident out there at that point? Anderson: No. It’d been decontaminated. Franklin: And where exactly was this? Anderson: It’s west of West Area. There’s an Army Loop Road that goes in back of West Area. And it was on the other side of the Army Loop Road and there was a fence around it. Franklin: Is that right up against the mountain then? Or--? Anderson: No, it’s flat out there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: When you go on the highway, the public highway, and you go out there and you can see some of the buildings and stuff. If you look close, you’ll see where there had been some—I don’t want to say buildings, but some foxholes or something like that that the military had done. It was just in back of that, is where it was. Franklin: Interesting. And so, after the research lab in 234-5-Z, where did you go from there? Anderson: I went to PUREX. First job I had at PUREX was in operations. There was the main supervisor and then he had two that supported him. I hired in over there as one of those. The building was divided into the west side and the east side for the two. I had the head end which was where the fuel dissolution occurred, where we had the uranium facilities outside, the liquid uranium, because we didn’t make solids back then. And then we also had the stack and so forth out back. So all that was something I had to get familiar with. Franklin: I’m sorry, what was the stack? Anderson: Oh, it’s a 200-foot chimney, I guess you’d call it, and that way whenever you dissolved or whatever and you had off-gassing and so forth, it’d go out that 200-foot stack. And that gas would go through a glass filter. That way, you didn’t have radiation going through except the radiation that was in a gaseous form, because nothing will stop that, pretty much. And iodine was one that would go out that way. Now, speaking of stacks, when they built B and T Plant, they did not have filters on them. The stack was 200—all those stacks are about 200 feet tall. So when they dissolved on the old buildings, because they didn’t have filters and stuff, they had to do it when the wind was proper. And then, after a while, of course, the machinery and stuff in the plant would corrode a little bit, so you could get dust particles and whatever coming out of the stack. And there were times when—I wasn’t working out there, then, but I was told that they had to put on booties when the bus was out there to walk into the building, and then they took them off. Because the particulates out there were bad. PUREX had some of that, to a certain extent, because their first step going up into the building was about even with the asphalt. So you know something had been covered. Franklin: Were B and T retrofitted with the filters after? Anderson: Yes, only theirs were sand filters. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did the glass filter—I imagine it wasn’t a sheet of glass. Anderson: Oh, no, it was kind of like insulation in your house, only it was beaucoup thick. I don’t remember how thick it was, but sometimes chemicals would hang up on it, because they’d be in particulate form. And because PUREX was a nitrate facility—well, all of them were nitrate facilities, because the bulk of the materials would be soluble in the nitrate form. So it would catch, like, sodium nitrate or something like that. Our filters over there, when I was working over there, started to plug, so we had to add another bay for filtration. You still let it go over the old one, because you wanted to use it up as much as you can, and then go up into the new one. Franklin: How would those be cleaned, or would they? Anderson: They weren’t. Franklin: Oh, okay. What would they do, just collapse the stack and—like break the stack down? Anderson: Oh, no, we just added on to the filter system. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: At PUREX, that’s all we did. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: And at B and T, that was the sand filter. So they added some HEPA filters to them later on. Franklin: Hmm. And so what—how long did you work as an operation supervisor at PUREX? Anderson: Oh, probably a year or so. The laboratory manager came down and asked for me to go to work in the laboratory. We talked about it and so forth, and he said there was a pay raise in it. So, you know. I went down there and I went on D shift as a shift supervisor in the laboratory. Franklin: In which—at PUREX? Anderson: The PUREX Process Laboratory. So there I had about ten people working for me in the laboratory. And operations would take their samples, and we had a dumbwaiter that went down to the sample floor, and they’d stick the samples on there and bring it up to the lab, and then we’d analyze it. Franklin: And what would you be analyzing for? Anderson: Well, for instance, in the feed, we would be analyzing for the uranium, plutonium and neptunium, because those were the products. You want to know, if you start out with, say, one pound of plutonium, that you end up with a pound at the end. You don’t want it to go out to the Tank Farms or whatever. So that’s one of the things. The other thing is you strip the fission products away from it and so forth so you’re cleaning it up as it goes through the plant. So that was very important. And if they had plant problems or something like that, we might get special samples. And I can remember one sample that went out to one of the cribs for the off-gas system. Apparently it bubbled over or something, because it was pretty yellow when we got it, plus it was pretty hot, in terms of radiation. So, you know, you have to tell them what’s going on and then they’ll take care of it. We eventually—well, I had three jobs there, actually. I did that and then I went to day shift as a day shift supervisor, because when our manager left, our day shift supervisor was bumped up to manager, so I took his job. And then later on, the research chemist that was there, he left and got another job offsite. So I took his job. [LAUGHTER] I did that—I worked in that lab—oh, well, counting the tech grad program and so forth, I probably worked in that lab six years to eight years, somewhere in that timeframe. Franklin: At the PUREX lab. Anderson: PUREX Process, yeah. And eventually, you know, while I was working there, waste management was the buzz word. That was the new thing. So B Plant became the center point for that. So we started getting set up to also analyze B Plant samples. They’d have to bring them to us. Franklin: Sorry, when you say waste management was the new buzz word, you mean, like, there was a new recognition of the waste products being generated at Hanford, or— Anderson: Yes. Franklin: How did that change from what had been happening before? What was this new focus and where did it come from? Anderson: Well, I don’t know where all of it came from, but the main reason was to keep track of that and to try to separate some of the higher beta gamma emitters which could assist you in high level waste determinations and things like that. Now, high level waste is a unique word. And transuranic is a unique word. Transuranic basically means if it’s greater than uranium in the periodic chart, it’s transuranic. So that waste—eventually, not at the beginning—went down to New Mexico and to their caverns. Franklin: Into Carlsbad. Anderson: And then the high level waste means that it’s the first cycle waste from processing fuels. So the bulk of the beta gamma products are in there. Franklin: And early on, that had not been—before the PUREX process and REDOX were—some of that waste had just been processed a bit but then dumped, right? Anderson: Well, it was separated from the transuranics and then it was neutralized and put out in the Tank Farms. Franklin: Right, but it was still high level waste in the Tank Farms? Anderson: Not necessarily. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: [LAUGHTER] See, it has to be from the first cycle waste. You run the fuels through, and on the first cycle waste, you separate the high level waste from the transuranics and uranics, as far as that goes. So anything separated after that is not high level waste. Now, for instance, and this may sound funny, at FFTF, they had some reactor trees that were in the reactor and they got contaminated—activated from the neutrons. Heating steel and stuff like that, it’ll absorb it, and you get cobalt-60 and all sorts of stuff. Well, that stuff, you know, could read—and I’m making this number up—say, 100,000 rad, okay? That’s low level waste. The intensity has nothing to do with what it is. Franklin: That was going to be my next question. So high level waste, you said, is the product after the first pass. Anderson: Right. Franklin: So even if you strip out the uranics and transuranics, that waste could still be hot, but it would not be high level waste. Anderson: Exactly. Franklin: Okay, so that’s a term that refers to the product of a specific state in time, not the level of contamination or radiation level of the actual item. Anderson: Same thing with the spent fuel, you know. Spent fuel, you think of it being in the reactor for a period of time so that it burns up the uranium-235 or whatever. In this case, it doesn’t really matter, as far as how long it’s been irradiated. If you put it in the reactor for five minutes, it’s been irradiated. Franklin: So, it’s spent fuel in that sense. Anderson: Yeah, and it might be cold enough to touch, but that doesn’t get rid of it as spent fuel. See, some of these definitions are, I guess you’d say they’re politically driven. Franklin: Yeah, as someone who comes from a history background and not a nuclear chemistry background, the use of the term “high level waste” brings out something else—doesn’t seem to be the best descriptor for this specific—you know, if you were to say, maybe, first pass waste. Because “high level” makes you think that it’s important waste, not necessarily that it’s just the waste from the first run through the— Anderson: Well, it is important, because in the spent fuel, you know, when you separate that out, you’re going to have mixed fission products that are hotsie-totsie. Franklin: Is that a technical term? Anderson: No, that’s [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sorry. Anderson: That’s a good question. Franklin: Couldn’t resist. Anderson: But no. For instance, at B Plant, they would recover the cesium and the strontium. And they would send us over some cesium in, say, a 100-pound pig for shielding. Well, you’d have a half-an-mL of cesium in there, which is a strong gamma. So in order for us to play with that—I shouldn’t use the term “play”—but to do the analytic analysis and so forth. We’d have to get a pipe that was, say, ten feet long, and put it through the handle so that the two people that were carrying that 100-pound pig around were minimizing their exposure. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Because even through that 100-pound pig, it was pretty hot. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, yeah. Now, strontium’s not quite so bad, because it’s a beta emitter. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: But there’s still both heat. And of course they added the facilities over at B Plant to encapsulate those materials. If you went over, they’d look almost like standard fuel elements or something, and they glowed blue. Franklin: Was it that—what’s that type of radiation? Anderson: Cherenkov. Franklin: Cherenkov radiation. Anderson: Right. Franklin: Sorry, when you’re saying B Plant, you mean B Reactor. Anderson: No. B Plant. Franklin: B Plant, okay, and what is B Plant? Anderson: B Plant was the first—T Plant was the first separation facility to separate plutonium from spent fuels. It was a precipitation process. Franklin: That’s with the cribs and the pools, right, with the constant chemical refining—or separation of the plutonium. Anderson: Right. They precipitated it and then went on with it. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And recovered it. So, yeah, that was very important. Franklin: And how does B Plant differ? Anderson: It’s almost the same as T Plant. T Plant was the first one built, so they made it a little bit different so they could do more research or studies or whatever with it than B. Franklin: But it was still one of those long canyon buildings. Anderson: Oh, yeah. They’re roughly, what, three football fields long or something like that. I mean, they’re huge. Franklin: Where was that located? Anderson: B Plant was probably a mile away from PUREX. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And T Plant was probably a mile away, more or less, from Dash-5, the plutonium building. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I wouldn’t be 100%. Franklin: Sure, I understand. Anderson: A mile, I mean. Franklin: So we talked a bit about high level waste and that kind of specific definition, and you’d started to talk about spent fuels and, I think, maybe the problem with that terminology, or how that terminology could cause issues or something. I wonder if we could go back to that. Anderson: Okay. Issues how? Franklin: Well, I don’t know, you started to mention that spent fuel referred to a specific process. Anderson: Oh, yeah. It’s just like “high level waste” or whatever else. If it was in a reactor for a short period of time—maybe it’s touchable, you know, whatever—but it’s still “spent fuel.” So you’ve got to treat it like spent fuel, and it has to go to a geologic repository and all that stuff. Franklin: Oh, okay, I see, I see. So it’s a very large, all-encompassing definition that doesn’t necessarily tell you how long it was in the reactor and how much of the uranium has been processed and things like that. Anderson: Right, because if you leave it in the reactor for a shorter period of time, versus longer, you’d come out with fuels-grade plutonium. If you leave it in longer than that, you end up with reactor-grade plutonium. One is more amenable to nuclear devices. Franklin: Which one is that? Anderson: The—what’d I call it? Franklin: You said there was fuel and reactor grade. Anderson: Yeah, fuel grade. Franklin: Fuel grade. Anderson: Not fuel grade, it’s—well, yeah, I guess that works, fuel grade. But it’s not reactor grade. I mean, it’s one that you can use in bombs. [LAUGHTER] Weapons grade, that’s what it is, weapons grade. Franklin: So there’s weapons grade and reactor grade. Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. When did you start work on the thorium campaign? Anderson: Oh, we had two of them here. One of them was a short period just to demonstrate that we could do it. And then the next one was to demonstrate that we could meet the requirements that were set upon us. Franklin: And that was for the Navy, right? For the Navy reactors? Anderson: For Rick Rickover. Franklin: Yeah, Admiral Rickover. Anderson: And I’ll say this, whenever he spoke, you jumped. Franklin: Why? Anderson: I mean, he had the power. When he said something, you did it. There was no ifs, ands or buts. Now, the thorium campaign—and actually if we had thorium reactors, that might be another topic. We never had those out there. Well, I guess we did, because we did irradiate some. But Rickover wanted some uranium-233, so that’s what we made. Because thorium, when you irradiate it, will go up to uranium-233, which is also fissile. You can make bombs. It’s weapons grade, or again, if you overdo it, it could be non-weapons grade. But we had to recalibrate the laboratory in order to handle that material. You used the same chemicals, basically, but you have to use them in a different way, and we had to analyze it a different way. I became, since I was the research chemist there—we had to have large samples of the product so we could analyze for all the impurities and so forth that they wanted. Consequently, we had a cabinet that we had in the building—in the laboratory, that could handle kg quantities of uranium-233. I had some critical mass bottles, which is product bottles that they used down in operations. When we accumulated enough 233, I would fill one of those jugs. I put a little plastic mixer in the bottom and put it on a magnetic plate, and then we’d mix it up and so forth after we put it together. And then I had to take enough sample out of there, because it was product—just like we did down below—and analyze that and make sure it met all the requirements. Franklin: What is the advantage for using thorium instead of uranium or plutonium for the reactor? Why the push for thorium? Anderson: Well, Rickover wanted it. He wanted it for the Navy. Franklin: And why? What’s the advantage to using thorium? Anderson: Well, you have impurity of uranium-232 in there. You could make fuels for submarine reactors or whatever. If you did that, you had to have pretty clean separated materials, because that 232 is a very hard gamma. It would go from gamma to gamma to gamma. So you would have more than enough coming from it. So if you kept it long enough, you’d have something that could probably be lethal. So it was kind of its own self-control. Franklin: In what way? Anderson: It’d be lethal. Franklin: The product would? Or the— Anderson: The product would, because the uranium-232 is decaying into these hot daughters. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. How is thorium made? Anderson: Thorium is in the earth. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So it’s a natural element. And then when you throw a neutron into it, it makes—thorium-232 and you add a neutron becomes thorium-233, and when it decays to uranium-233. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Anderson: So it’s kind of like uranium-238, getting a neutron and making Pu-239. Franklin: Okay. And how long did you work on these thorium campaigns? Anderson: Oh, they were very short. I think it was probably around six months long, something like that. The demo was just a short period of time. I don’t know, weeks, maybe, at the most. But the other one was a lot longer. Franklin: And then you mentioned right around this time that waste management started to become kind of a hot issue. Maybe hot’s not the best word to use, but it started gaining a lot of attention. So you moved to waste management, right, from PUREX. Anderson: Yes, I transferred. Also, I went to an engineering group because they made more money—back then, they made more money than a chemist. But yes. And there, boy, I’ll tell you, I was at B Plant, which was the operations facility. I wrote monthly reports, management reports, I wrote two of those every month. I mean, one of each. And then I wrote quarterly reports for burial grounds, gas emissions, and liquid discharges. Then I also wrote the Tank Farm reports. And so, I had to be involved with a lot of that. And the funny thing is, my boss called me into his office after I’d done that for a few years. He says, guess what? I got a proposition for you. I says, oh, what’s that? He says, well, it’s one you ought to say yes to. And so, he said, engineering wants your job, and wants you to go along with it. So, I transferred from operations to engineering. That’s how I got involved in the engineering aspect. Franklin: Of waste management. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: So how long did you work as a waste management engineer? Anderson: Oh, from 1971, about, until 2012, I guess. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite a long time. What were some of the—can you describe kind of your work as a waste management engineer? What did you do out there and what significant accomplishments or setbacks did you have? Anderson: Well, we had, for instance, with the double-shell tanks, one of the A Farm tanks—not, let’s see, AX. AY. 102-AY, I think it was. I could be off on that, but—we had to analyze the material that went in there and keep it below a certain concentration of sodium and so on to keep it in a good, safe condition. And then the other tanks, we had to keep track of the material that went in there. For instance, we had one tank that tended to get a lot of the first cycle waste, and we had to make sure that the fissile material in there was according to par. So we had requirements and so forth. When we went out to the liquid discharges to the ground, for instance, you had to make those as low as you could. I remember, DOE asked me to tell them what the—after they ran it through a process and cleaned up the discharge quite a bit. They asked me to tell them what it was going to be like in 20 years. I said, well, here’s what we put in and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you’re not going to see much change out in the crib, because it’s already so contaminated. So they came back and said, well, forget the old stuff; just do the new stuff. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we did. But sometimes the operation would have a problem with it and it would discharge some radioactive materials into the environment. Franklin: From the tank to the— Anderson: No, from the building. Franklin: Oh, from the building to the environment. So not from the building to the tank, but— Anderson: Now, over at one of the ponds, they put up scarecrows to keep the ducks and stuff out. They got used to that, so then they started with a shotgun effect. It was an air gun or something. That worked for a while, but then they got used to that. So finally they had to put a net over it. So, yeah, Mother Nature’ll get used to most anything. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: So, that was a problem. Franklin: What about the emissions from the Tank Farms? I wonder if you could talk about that. Anderson: We never really noticed a lot of emissions from the Tank Farms when I was working in it. I remember a lot of the tanks did not have filters on them. In the middle of winter, because they’re liquid tanks, you’re going to have high humidity coming out the breather, so there was what looked like steam coming out. Somebody in DOE saw that. So we had to hook everything up to an exhaust system. But we never really had much of a problem unless liquid burped out of a tank or whatever. Franklin: Did that happen? Anderson: Yes, it did, in some of those farms, and it was pretty hot. In fact, one of them was so hot that, rightly so, the manager over that covered it with some soil so it wouldn’t get airborne and so forth after it was on the ground. So, I remember they called me up, and I had to go out to the building and we put in a concrete burial box into the trench. We had to have it such that they could scoop up that material and go over and dump it into the concrete box, so we could tell the public that it had been contained. But I remember going to work at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I worked until noon or something like that. My boss said, how long have you been out here? And I told him, and he says, well, go home. [LAUGHTER] But that happened every so often. Not a lot, but. And there’s some stories I put in my Tank Farm—not my Tank Farm; my burial ground report. They used to transfer sometimes over ground, and they still do. Franklin: What do you mean transfer? Oh, transfer waste. Anderson: Waste, overground instead of underground. On REDOX, it’s a half a mile away from the S Farm complex, so they could read it over there, which is quite a distance away. So they had to rush over there and pump cold water through it and get the readings down. Franklin: Pump cold water through--? Anderson: Through the transfer line. Franklin: Oh, okay. Half mile transfer line seems— Anderson: No, that wasn’t the transfer line. The Tank Farm is over here, and REDOX is over here. They can read it over at REDOX. Franklin: Oh, they can read—okay, I see, I see. Anderson: Yeah. Now, what we did, when I was in engineering there, is we would calculate the volume of liquid that would be in a pipe when you’re transferring. You could transfer from East Area to West Area, which is a few miles. But you had to calculate how much was going to be in the lines. So when you transferred, you would look at the drop in the tank, and you’d look at the rise in the other tank, and there’s going to be a delay because of what’s being held up into the piping. So, we had to do that. One time, the liquid went down real fast, and it went up real slow in the receiving tank. We had to shut it off and find out what’s what. We could take pictures inside the tanks and stuff like that, so we went in. Well, the solid material in the tank that we were removing the liquid from had an annulus of solids around it. So instead of being the full diameter of the tank that we were pumping out, it was the inside. They didn’t match up, because a small radius of waste, versus the tank, which is the full radius. So we had a lot of troubles with stuff like that. We used to take a lot of pictures in the Tank Farms. Franklin: How would you take a picture of the inside of the tank? Anderson: You get a rigid pipe, if you will, and then you hook the camera up to it. And you can remotely set the frames down there and the flash. Then you can hold it or support it, whatever, and rotate it. So as it goes around in a circle, you’ll get pictures of it. The other thing that we did was put gas—you’d put the camera, wrap it in plastic so it won’t get contaminated—but you can’t do that with the lens. That would distort and stuff. So you had air being blown over the lens to keep it free and clean. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So you had little pieces of instrument pipe, I guess you’d say, that would do that. Franklin: Kind of spritz air across it? Anderson: But we did that in the casings, too, in the burial grounds. Franklin: And the radiation in the tank wouldn’t contaminate the film or any of the mechanical components of the camera or anything like that? Anderson: No, because they’re encased in that plastic. Franklin: And so then the camera was then safe to work with, too, once you unwrapped the plastic and everything. Anderson: Right. Franklin: That’s right, that’s really interesting. Anderson: We had almost a full-time photographer out there that did that. A lot of those were his ideas. Franklin: Wow. That’s quite something. Anderson: Now, I wrote a history book on the Tank Farms. Franklin: For DOE or just in general? Anderson: Just in general. So I wrote the document, and 90% of it or more is tables of what went where and all that sort of stuff. From Tank A to Tank B and to Tank C and so on. Franklin: And did you do this as a private citizen? Did you do it while you were working out there, or--? Anderson: Oh, I did it out there. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Anderson: See, I was in waste management, and I had all those different projects: I had the Tank Farms, the burial grounds, the cribs, ponds and ditches, and the gas emissions. The environmental group said, well, I’m doing their work. [LAUGHTER] So I lost all those reports except for the burial grounds. Which is fine, because there was more work in the burial grounds to do than the other. But I enjoyed the writing that history book. But as I went around the building, there was umpteen secretaries. Back then, no computers, you know, for us. So I’d say, you want to do some work for me? Sure! And I’d show them those tables, and—no! So it took me a long time to get them typed up. And then it was decided that it was too sensitive a material. So they wouldn’t let me publish it, but I could make operational copies. John Glenn, you know, the astronaut and senator and stuff, he was at a meeting, and I wasn’t there, so this is purely secondhand or more—but there was a Battelle document that was in the same category. They’d done the work on it, but they didn’t think they should publish it. So, he found out about that and so he asked the people there, he says, so what other documents are you hiding? They said, Anderson’s document. So I had 30 days to publish it. [LAUGHTER] That’s how it got published. Which is okay, but it didn’t have the scrutiny it should’ve had. But I put a cover letter on it that showed that. I had a lot of projects there. You do that. I had to look at the inventory—or the MUF—they called it the MUF back then: Material Unaccounted For—at Dash-5. Franklin: As in, radioactive material? Anderson: As in plutonium. Yeah. Because when you got kg quantities of stuff, you’re never going to be down to the gnat’s eyebrow. But I was asked to make a report on that, and I did. Since most of it was buried and so forth, we’ll probably never know how good the numbers were. Franklin: Right, some of it made it into the waste stream, right, in some form or another. Anderson: Right, and sometimes it might not even have existed to begin with. Franklin: Jillian wrote some things for me to ask you about here. So I’m just going to kind of go down the list, if that’s all right with you. If we’ve already covered it, please feel free to tell me that. She had on here, Tank Farms and emissions from Tank Farms. Anderson: Oh, we went through that, because— Franklin: Right, right. Anderson: They didn’t have HEPAs and so on. Franklin: What about waste generator requirements? Anderson: That’s on radioactive solid waste. We couldn’t do an audit, but we could do assessments. One of the requirements that DOE put on us was that you’re to check and find out what’s going on. So that was in DOE Order 5820, I think it was. So we set up a program, and I used to visit all the DOE sites that sent us radioactive waste. They could be colleges, they could be other research laboratories, and so forth. Once a year, I and another guy and sometimes a couple more would go to do the different generating sites and verify that they’re indeed meeting our requirements for disposal. We would actually look at the waste. Not just say, yea verily and bless it. We had to go in. And we found some interesting things in some of that. We found a Coke bottle—Coke can, I guess it was, in a radioactive waste. That’s not supposed to be in there, you know. And then down at 300 Area, we found a wooden box that had the janitor’s materials in it. Why would that be in there? Well, he didn’t know what to do with it. Franklin: When in doubt, put it in the garbage, right? Anderson: That’s right. So we had some oddball stuff like that. One of the biggest problems we had was lead. Because they came out with hazardous requirements as well as radioactive requirements. Well, lead, if you do the test on it, the laboratory test, it’s a hazardous material. I remember we had a lot of people in one of the laboratories that said, well, I’ve been using it to prop my laboratory door open for 20 years and it hasn’t killed me yet. Franklin: You’re talking about, what? Like, just a piece of lead? Like a lead doorstop or something? Anderson: No, just a chunk—a lead brick. Franklin: Just a lead brick. Anderson: Just a plain old lead brick. Franklin: Where would one get a lead brick? Anderson: Oh, out at Hanford, they’re everywhere. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I mean, you use them for shielding, mainly. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So, yeah, you get them everywhere. Franklin: Of course, now that would be almost unheard of, right, to just have lead bricks on the floor as doorstops. Anderson: Right. And we had lead glass, too. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Leaded glass. So we took some leaded glass and analyzed it. It’s also hazardous. It meets the—or fails the test, or whatever you want to call it. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: We even went over to—it wasn’t Macy’s then, but it was the people that owned that facility before. We got some Steuben glass. That is the most crystal clear glass I think there is, but it’s high in lead. So the problem is, for instance, if you like wine, you may not want to leave it in there too long. We even called Steuben up, and they said, oh, yeah, we know it. Franklin: Wow. Another thing here is concern about hydrogen explosions. Anderson: We had that in the burial grounds as well as the Tank Farms. Radioactive materials can decay and ionize other things—organics, for instance—and tear them apart. So you can generate hydrogen. So, you don’t want that to build up in your, say, a waste drum of solid waste. So, we had to come up with some techniques to use so that we could mitigate any chance of hydrogen buildup in a waste system. For instance, we ended up with catalyst beads that we put in solid waste in a screen. We screened it and put it together so it’d be on top. That’s where hydrogen likes to go and stuff. So then we also put clips, vent clips, on the side of the drum that would be good enough to allow hydrogen to weep out, but it wouldn’t be good enough to let the plutonium out. So we did all these different things. Franklin: Did you ever have a hydrogen explosion? Anderson: No. Franklin: Okay. So this was just a concern based on the probability, but not an actual event. Anderson: That’s correct. Franklin: Do you know of any hydrogen explosion in a waste tank? Anderson: Not in a waste tank, but that reactor back east did have hydrogen in it. Franklin: Which--? Three Mile? Anderson: Three Mile Island, yeah. Franklin: Mm. I see. So another bullet here is trenches for reactors. Anderson: Okay! Now, we started this a long time ago, but the Navy has reactors in subs and they also have them in, oh, the flat tops. Franklin: The aircraft carriers. Anderson: Aircraft carriers. Franklin: Oh, so this is the burial grounds for the reactors. Anderson: Right. So they come from the shipyard over on the west side of the state, and then they put them on a barge because they’re so heavy. They bring them up the Columbia and then they bring them to the dock just south of 300 Area. Is that right? Yeah, I think that’s right. And then they transport it on a vehicle that has multi, multi tires. Then they travel at about five miles an hour or so and take it out to the burial grounds. So we have all those reactors out there. If you look at them, the outside of it is the hull from the sub, for instance. And then they put a plate on the front and back and— Franklin: How did that start? Anderson: Well, the Navy—well, we had the treaty with Russia. What was it? SALT Treaty? Franklin: Strategic Arms Limitation? Anderson: And so Russia had to know how many missiles were available in the military. So when they’re in dock and they’re [unknown] they leave the missile ports open so satellites that go over can look in and say, ha, they’re clean. And they can still count them in the burial grounds, even though there’s nothing there except the reactor. But we have to meet that. That’s politics. I won’t try to second guess that. Franklin: Sure. That’s fine. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: There’s a place for politics. Anderson: Now, the old reactors out along the Columbia River, there was a lot of talk about putting those in the burial ground, too. There’s all sorts of techniques. Originally, they were going to bring them, but they decided to let them decay a while and then maybe bring them over, I don’t know. Franklin: Or who knows? Maybe they’ll become part of the National Park someday. Anderson: Could be. Franklin: And then the last one here is something I’m familiar with, Environmental Impact Statements. Anderson: [LAUGHTER] We wrote our first burial Environmental Impact Statement in the early ‘70s, I think it was. Franklin: Right, that would’ve been right after the creation of the EPA. Anderson: And so we did that and then later on, Battelle had to do them. So then we did a pre-report, or—I don’t want to call it a pre-report. A report that had the information in it, and let Battelle run with it. So we worked on a lot of those, too. But that would include, again, burial grounds—or it depends what the EIS is on. But if it was on the burial grounds. One of them was on high level waste; I remember that, and Tank Farms, I think it was. So, yeah. Franklin: So the EISs, then, covered the different waste management activities that were going on out at Hanford? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: And so what kind of work did that take to put together and EIS for high level waste or for Tank Farm remediation? Anderson: It took months. You had to estimate what was going to happen and how it was, and then you had to look at different scenarios. But we couldn’t say what the final scenario was, or the conclusion. Franklin: Just because you didn’t know, or--? Anderson: No, that was Battelle’s problem. Let them decide what’s what. Franklin: Did you find yourself spending a lot of time doing EIS work? Anderson: Whenever they happened, yeah. Otherwise it was kind of not there. I mean, we had to obey by them. Once they were issued, we had to meet their requirements. Franklin: Sure, sure. So from the early ‘70s, then, and you said you retired for good in 2012, where was most of your work centered? Anderson: From about 1971 on, it was in the burial grounds. Franklin: Okay, so the 200 Area burial grounds. Anderson: Burial grounds. Franklin: It says here that you retired in 1996. Anderson: I physically retired in ’96, and then they called me back and I worked until 2012. So I almost worked 50 years. Franklin: Wow. How did things change for you, beginning in the late ‘80s after the production shutdown? Did you find your job changed? Or did the outlook of your coworkers or the bosses of the Site change? Anderson: Actually, we had more work because of the inspections we had to do and things like that. So it didn’t cut the work. Franklin: Just got busier for waste management? Anderson: Yeah. I mean, the requirements got more and more, so we had that. Now, that doesn’t include the ERDF, because I never worked on the ERDF. Franklin: Sure. Were you involved in any way with the vitrification plant or that type of waste management? Anderson: Not much, no. I can’t say much about that. They did make a vault out there that they took Tank Farm waste and added concrete to. That didn’t work. Franklin: You’re talking about—no, you’re not talking about BWIP, are you? Anderson: No, BWIP is another deal. It’s over by one of the A Farm complexes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: But they were taking Tank Farm waste and trying to show that they could put it in a vault and solidify it. But—I never followed it completely, but I don’t think it ever lived up to its expectations. Franklin: As in cost expectations, or as in safety— Anderson: As in meeting the environmental requirements. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering, just quickly if we could go back in time a bit. Do you remember President Kennedy’s visit? Anderson: Yeah. [VIDEO CUTS] Anderson: To Kennedy’s visit? Tom Hungate: Yup. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, just—I wonder if you could tell me about that. Anderson: Well, I had to work. [LAUGHTER] But I was at PUREX when that happened. We had a door that the chemicals could come into the plant through. It was looking north towards the N Reactor. I can remember the cars going crazy out there and coming back the same way. So that’s all I could visually see, was what the traffic was going to and from. But, no, I wasn’t out there so I couldn’t say much on that. Franklin: Okay. When did your father retire from Hanford? Anderson: In the ‘60s. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: And they called him back and he worked a few more times, 2,000 hours or whatever it was, and finally my mom said, that’s enough. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where did your parents move after the B house was sold? Anderson: Oh, they bought another B house about three or four blocks away from that one. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did they live there then, for the rest of their lives? Anderson: Yes. They lived on one side for a while and then they moved over to the other side and lived on the other side. Franklin: Did they rent out the other side? Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So I was just wondering, is there anything we haven’t mentioned in this interview that you’d like to talk about? Anderson: Well, depends, but it seems to me, like, for instance, the burial requirements—and a lot of places were that way—but I searched and I searched, and I finally found the original burial requirement. That was in an RWP and it was about that long. Franklin: Sorry, what’s an RWP? Anderson: Radioactive Work Procedure. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: And there was a paragraph in it that was for the burial grounds. That was it. As time progressed—that was in the ‘40s, and as time progressed, they became more and more complicated and so forth because we had new requirements to meet. Then in probably the ‘80s, RCRA came in. So hazardous chemicals was also part of the problem. So you had to keep rad and hazardous and meet both requirements. Franklin: In the burial grounds. Anderson: In the burial grounds. The funny thing is, the first one I wrote was in the ‘70s. DOE said, we want you to put the sanitary landfill in it, too, so it covers not only the rad burial grounds but the sanitary landfill, which is the one in between East Area and the Wye Barricade. So I put that in there and we had to meet the requirements for that place in that document. I had to divide it up into the rad section and into the sanitary. So I issued it, and then DOE come back and says, what do you got this in there for, the sanitary? I said, because you told me to. And they said, well, take it out. [LAUGHTER] So they took it out. Or I took it out, because I had to rewrite it. And I was in on a lot of the rewrites after that. The documents got so thick and so forth, it was almost a fulltime job just to get that done. So that was probably something that was very important. The paper trail is not complete as far as I know. It took me a couple, three years to find the original one. Franklin: This report from the ‘40s. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And where was that? Or where does this appear in? Anderson: Well, I don’t know where it is, but an engineer had it and he had squirrelled it away. I found out through word-of-mouth and so forth where I might find it, and lo and behold, I finally did. But a lot of that early stuff— Franklin: Was it a Hanford-generated report? Anderson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: It’s got a number and everything on it. So but that was interesting. In talking to some of the people—because the second half of—not second half; last third or so of the report I put together on the burial grounds—I interviewed the people that were involved in making the burial grounds and got a lot of good information on that. Franklin: You mean people that were involved in the early— Anderson: In the early East and West burial grounds. Franklin: And so you were kind of doing your own oral histories. Anderson: Well, that was for my document that I put together. Franklin: Well, sure. Anderson: It’s about that thick or whatever. [VIDEO CUTS] <a href="https://youtu.be/irJsdV1qKlU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor) 300 Area 100-K Area FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 234-5 Building REDOX T Plant B Plant 200 Area Burial Grounds Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962-2012 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Chemistry Civil defense Civil defense drills Description An account of the resource James Anderson moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. James worked on the Hanford Site from 1962-2012. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/14/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Bates Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with James Bates on October 3, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Bates: Okay. James M. Bates. J-A-M-E-S, B-A-T-E-S. Franklin: Okay, great. Thank you. Bates: It’s not difficult. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, but you just, you never know. So tell me—so, you’re from the area, right? Bates: Yup. Franklin: Okay, so usually my first question is, tell me how and why you came to the area. But you were born— Bates: I was born in Pasco, went to school in Kennewick, graduated from Kennewick High in 1970. My dad, when I was in junior high school, brought me out to the Battelle Northwest groundbreaking ceremony. My dad was involved in local politics quite a bit; in fact, he eventually became mayor of Kennewick for several years. But he got me interested in the lab when we came out to the groundbreaking ceremony and the discussions of what was going to be going on in the labs kind of caught my interest. I mean, I was in junior high, so there was a long time to change my mind, but I kind of stuck with that as my goal. Graduated high school, went up to WSU, joined the mechanical engineering department. Got my degree, got a job offer from Battelle, came to work one month after graduation, stayed here 35 years. Franklin: Wow. So did your father work for Hanford, or was he just kind of— Bates: No, well, he was—right after he got out of high school, back in the late ‘40s, he worked on construction of some of the waste tank storage, the single-shell tanks. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: He worked out there about two years. But he eventually got diverted into auto parts and managed the NAPA store in downtown Kennewick. So that’s where I worked in the summers, doing inventory. [COUGH] I’m fighting a cough right now, so. Franklin: Oh, sure. And so what was your first job when you came out to Battelle? Bates: Well, they had what they called in those days a science and engineering rotation program. It was where you hired in and spent three to six months in various departments where they had openings. I actually started in the facilities department. Good bunch of guys there, still friends with a lot of those guys, and worked there about four months. It gave me a real good chance to learn what the lab was all about. I was modifying facilities for various sections, groups, departments, as project needs changed. So I got to know a whole lot of people around the lab. One of the departments that caught my attention was the fluids engineering section. When they had an opening, I transferred in there and stuck with them for 34 more years. Franklin: Wow. So I’m wondering if you can—just because I’m kind of a layman when it comes to this—if you could describe to me, what is fluids engineering and fluids dynamics? Bates: Well, understanding fluid flow, phase change, pressure drops, Newtonian and non-Newtonian fluid behaviors, like I mentioned, multi-phase flow. All of that played very much into understanding the water cooling aspects of our production reactors out here. In fact, I got on board when they were trying to upgrade NPR, the New Production Reactor, which was actually N Reactor. We were trying to bump the performance, the thermal output of that reactor, as well as the production capability. So we had a chance to refurbish a lot of the old thermohydraulic loops that were used for designing the fuels on the old production reactors, the B, C, D Reactors. We upgraded that facility and began to do a number of tests related to the N Reactor. Critical heat flux correlations, these sorts of things, which helped them improve the fuel design for the reactor. Franklin: So, if I’m understanding, you kind of drew on the work done to increase the productivity of the single pass reactors. Bates: Yup. Yeah. Franklin: And transferred that to the closed loop system of the N Reactor? Bates: Yeah, I mean, we did work—factory did work on some of the work on the steam generators used that were eventually used to power the civilian power plant out there. But I mean, this test loop chases its roots way back to before I was born, 1950, ’51. They had loops out there to help them with reactor design. They kind of fell by the wayside in terms of use until we refurbished them, got them back online. But we had a high pressure loop out there capable of full reactor conditions, 2,500 psi, 650 degrees. We had five megawatts of power available to us through both rectifiers and motor generator sets. We used electrically—resistance heating to simulate the nuclear fuel rod bundle thermal output. So it was quite interesting for a young guy, just out of school, used to working on tabletop-scale experiments. I mean, this loop was 100 feet long and 100 feet high. [LAUGHTER] Pretty impressive to me. Franklin: This was located on the Battelle campus? Bates: At the old—no, this was out at the 189-D area. It was a reactor support building in the D Area complex. Franklin: Okay. Bates: So it involved a—when I was out there sitting in my chair at the loop, I was 50 miles from home. It was quite a long commute. Franklin: Yeah. And so by this point, all the single-pass reactors were shut down? Bates: Pretty—not completely. They were getting into those issues of thermal output and getting state permits. I can remember one time, in fact, we lost our permit to even do the thermal discharge from our test loop in the middle of a critical program. So how are we going to cool this thing without any river water at our disposal? So what we came up with was we pumped the river water out one pass through our loop, stored it in the old emergency cooling tanks out there that were in the 190 Tank Building. Gave us 5 million gallons’ capacity to store until we got our discharge permit back. Then we opened the valve and let it back out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, that’s to return the water to the river. Bates: To return the water back to the river, yeah. Franklin: Was that permitting process kind of part of the growing environmental movement? Bates: Oh, yeah, very much so. When I first hired on, Hanford kind of had free reign on what we could do out here. We didn’t even pay for power. I’d fire up five megawatts of power supply and there was no meter on it. I wouldn’t’ve wanted to pay that bill, but— Franklin: Yeah, right. And where was that power coming from? Bates: It was coming off the grid out here on the Site. We had a big motor generator set—I forget how many horsepower it was, like 200 horsepower—that we used to turn AC power into DC. DC power being much better for this electrical resistance heating that we were doing. And we also had silicon-controlled rectifiers, SCRs, we called them, that about 4 megawatts out of that unit that turned AC power into controllable DC power. I remember every time we had to come online, I had to call the guys at the substations and say, we’re throwing the breaker. Get ready, we’re coming online. Because if we didn’t give them warning, it looked like something was failing, and we’d shut the substation down. Franklin: Oh, because of the immense amount power to be drawn. Bates: There was a big power draw all of a sudden. Franklin: Because that would look like a massive— Bates: Some kind of a surge going on that was unexpected. So we had the phone number pasted on the wall there, before you throw the switch, call these guys and let them know we’re coming online. So it was a—when that motor generator set was running, it was pretty impressive. Sounded like a jet engine running, just off to the side of the control panel here. In fact, I think that’s why I have hearing loss, over sitting there next to that thing for so many hours. Franklin: Sure. Yeah, I bet there’d be a different industrial hygiene— Bates: Oh, well, we didn’t have any noise surveys in those days, when our health people finally came out and did a survey, they said, man, that’s about 108, 110 decibels. You shouldn’t be spending more than two hours a day in that environment. And I says, well, let’s see, I’m 14 hours and going for today, so. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really loud. Bates: Oh, it is, it is really loud. I mean, we sat there with hearing protection on just to keep from getting a headache. But there was no requirements for limits of exposure or how many hours we could spend in that environment. Franklin: Wow. I’m wondering if you could talk about how that permitting—that level of safety and permitting increased during your time out there. Bates: Oh, it was orders of magnitude. Basically, when I first hired on—in fact, I brought the documents—we wrote our safety documents and we ran them—basically, our operating procedures and what the hazards were. We wrote that all down, and we got it approved by Gordy Halseth. He was the single safety officer for Battelle in those days, he and a couple secretaries and clerks. I mean, if you go out and compare that to the size of the safety department that’s out there now—there must be probably 50, 60 people now doing that same job, just because of the increasing requirements. Basically, in those days, we’d invite Gordy out and give him a tour and get him to bye off. One signature, and we were on our way. The stuff we were doing—I mean, this is 2,500 psi, 620 degrees—is dangerous. We were careful because we knew it was dangerous, not because somebody told us we had to be careful. [LAUGHTER] So, you know, if somebody tells you that stove is hot, you don’t touch it. You don’t have to have it written down somewhere and sign off on a procedure. But, yeah, the changes that went on increased the efforts required to get project plans approved, safety documents approved, hazardous materials documents approved. All this became a much larger fraction of what we had to do in order to do our experimental work. So I got a little frustrated with it towards the end of my career, because it was just taking so much time. The ultimate objective, as stated by our safety people, was zero accidents. I kept saying, there’s no such thing. Probabilities play in, and things are going to happen. I told them, the people working for me, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive to work, statistically. So I said, do you want me to tell them to stay home? Well, that’s not what we’re after. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Could you see, on the flip side, though, could you see any tangible benefit to that increase— Bates: Oh, yeah. If you read the old records of how much the production reactors warmed up the river, for example. When all of the production reactors were online, they could warm the entire Columbia River up by four to five degrees. Which, when you go out there and watch that river flowing by, that’s pretty amazing. Franklin: Right, and that could have some real cascading effects on different ecosystems. Bates: Oh, yeah, yeah. And of course, you mentioned the once-through cooling. When a fuel element ruptured, you began to wonder what was going into the river. Franklin: What other kinds of improvements or changes did your work lead to with the reactors, single-pass and then the closed loop? Bates: Oh, for example, we worked on improving the pressure drop performance of the spacers that hold the reactor rod bundles together. Any time you got a pressure drop through there, it’s a loss of energy, essentially. So we were trying to improve the performance of the spacer and the mixing behaviors downstream of those spacers. Because if the flow characteristics aren’t proper and you don’t get proper cooling to the rod, you’ll get a hot spot, and that limits how much you can ramp the power up. So, both the physical and the fluid dynamics of that flow were very important to how much power you can get out of a fuel element. So we worked on that a lot. In fact, these pictures I’ve got show huge control panels where pressure drop was what we were measuring. We used to use old mercury manometers in those days. Franklin: What is that? Bates: It’s where you measure, like, for example, a barometer. The old mercury barometers used to measure atmospheric pressure by how far it pushed a mercury column up in a tube. Well, if you put high-side pressure, low-side pressure and see the difference in that, you can determine how many psi pressure dropped. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: So the electronic transducers were just beginning to come onto the market. Which we eventually replaced all of that with. Franklin: And what is that, just something that electronically measures the pressure? Bates: Yeah. They use piezoelectrics, for example, is one way of making a pressure sensor. I got to live through all of that, where we went from manually recording manometers on a panel into our log book to tying it into an Apple computer-based data acquisition system and doing it all electronically. You got to remember, when I went to work out there in 1974, there were no desktop computers. My slide rule got a workout the first couple years. [LAUGHTER] And then eventually the company came through and gave us all HP calculators. Which were just beginning to come on to the market. Franklin: How did that change your work? Just that one tool, that one tool change. Bates: Oh, drastically. As an old school engineer, the thing I noticed, comparing it to the young engineers coming on board, when you work with a slide rule, you have to keep, basically, order-of-magnitude answers in your head. I mean, the decimal point doesn’t show on a slide rule. So you got real good at anticipating what a reasonable answer is to an engineering problem. The young engineers that were coming in that were all digital or computer, they’d come in and show me the answer. It was off by four orders of magnitude. I said, that can’t be. There’s no heat transfer coefficient that high. You know? You got to keep in your mind what a reasonable answer is. I’m afraid that that tendency still exists today in our computer-based engineering world. Franklin: So you’re saying, then, that kind of precision of the calculator took away some of that educated-guess work. Bates: It took away that, like I said, the engineering judgment. You start believing all the numbers the computer spits out with no basis to reject them as reasonable or unreasonable. Some of the older engineers I worked with, like Dale Fitzsimmons and Frank [unknown] and that, these guys were working out there working about the time I was born. They had the ability to do on the back of an envelope, so to speak, very good calculations. Things that we wouldn’t even attempt to do today. Obviously they were approximations but they gave us design parameters so we could go out and buy pumps and things to do the job. We just didn’t have all that software. In fact, the very first computer that was used out here was an analog computer that used manual jumpers on an array of resisters. Franklin: Wow. Bates: It was very crude. But because there’s an electrical analog for heat transfer, you could mock up a heat transfer experiment electronically and get some basic answers. Which we always had to confirm experimentally. Franklin: How long did that practice continue of generating basic answers to then confirm— Bates: Oh, I mean, right up until the time I retired, we were still doing very detailed studies on turbulence—I mean, turbulence is something computer models can’t model very well. Every turbulence model out there is empirically derived from experimental data. There’s no first principles that can model the chaos of turbulence. And that’s very key to heat transfer, for example. So, even with some of the reactor design codes that are being used now—which other people in our group were responsible for developing the COBRA codes, the VIPER codes—these probably don’t mean anything to you. But in the nuclear industry, they’re key to designing and analyzing accident conditions and so forth. A lot of the empirical models that are in those codes came from our experimental work. Franklin: Are those acronyms, COBRA and VIPER? Bates: Yeah, yeah, yeah. COBRA, I’m trying to—Coolant Boiling and Reactor Accidents. I’ve got it, it’s in the old history documents here. They became words to us over the years; you kind of lose track of where they came from. Franklin: This might be an off-the-wall question; I’m just kind of curious. We have a—I found a box of archival material the other day that referenced something called a TRUMP computer program. Bates: Yeah, I remember TRUMP. Franklin: Okay. I’m wonder if you could— Bates: That wasn’t something I was familiar with, but it was competitive with some of the things we were developing. Our group over the years split and merged many times, but we always had an analytical branch and an experimental branch. There was a lot of things that went on during the split in terms of code development, but we in the experimental group weren’t in the meetings with on a daily basis. Franklin: Why did they split and merge so many times? Bates: Oh, it was basically a growth and—when funding grew and it got too unmanageable, it was a logical way to split the group into two management. Because section leaders couldn’t manage 50 people; I mean, that gets a little cumbersome. So we’d split it into two 25-peron groups for a while. Then the funding would dry up and we’d merge. We also, as did every company in the country, we went through the management style-of-the-day process, where we grew management and contracted it. Someday I always wanted to go back through my org charts and chart how many management people there were at any given time as a function of time. It changed a lot. I even got—boy, when was it? Late ‘80s, I guess, early ‘90s, I got asked to manage a group. I did that for about four years. But I found that management was a totally different animal than the technical work I liked to do. So when the opportunity came when they wanted to merge, I gave up my management position very willingly. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. I’m wondering if you could kind of track or tell me how larger national events play—kind of affected your work. I’m thinking of the drawdown of the Carter administration? Bates: Yeah, when Jimmy Carter said, basically, no more nukes, that was a huge transition for us. I was working on a program at the time related to understanding liquid metal breeder reactor natural circulation cooling. I’d spent three years designing, building and getting ready to run tests on this very specialized test section. We were some of the country’s experts at that time in laser Doppler anemometry, which is an optical technique to measure fluid flow. Franklin: Sorry, could you say—laser Doppler— Bates: Yeah, LDA for short. Laser Doppler anemometry. Franklin: Anemometry, okay. Bates: Yes. In fact, when I first came on board we were putting together LDA systems from components we bought from Edmonds Scientific. I mean, big lenses and stuff, and we’d build all the mounts and it was kind of a do-it-yourself. We were doing things very unique at the time. Franklin: And you were using this to measure—because I see on my bio sheet here, working with lasers and tools to measure coolant flows, right? Bates: Yes. Franklin: Measuring heat and— Bates: We put a mockup of a reactor inside of a test section with quartz windows in it so we could shine through. I built quartz windows that were good through 1,000 psi of pressure so we could measure at-reactor conditions. Some of the first measurements of that—in fact, I published a paper on some of this and got accepted to an international symposium in Portugal. I went over and presented what we were doing. It was pretty neat. I got put in the bound volume of proceedings. It was a very fun experience. But LDA was kind of my first love for about ten, 15 years of work. In fact, LDA became so popular as a research tool that there were several companies started to sell those systems. Thermal Systems Incorporated, TSI, out of Minneapolis. They consulted with us quite a bit on how to improve systems. Eventually marketed complete operable systems you could buy out of a catalogue, as opposed to our home-built systems. Franklin: Kind of taking what you were doing and standardizing it or kind of— Bates: Yup, yup. Franklin: That’s really interesting. I mean, who doesn’t want to work with lasers? [LAUGHTER] Even today, I think people still do. Bates: It’s cool stuff. I wish I had some of those pictures that—I’ve been retired ten years and a lot of my stuff has kind of disappeared. But we’d have the photographers come in and take a picture of all the mirrors and lenses and things we’d lined up on a layout table to make this LDA system work. It was pretty neat stuff. Franklin: So I want to go—just ask you—so the LMBR, the liquid metal—you were doing work then to support the FFTF. Bates: Yeah, and then Jimmy Carter said, no more. Well, in a matter of three days, I went from fully funded for three straight years on this program to having zero dollars. They called and said, end of program, box it up and send it off. Most of it went to excess; some of it got transferred to another lab. And I had to find something new to do. So one week later, I went from working on liquid metal breeder reactors to working on solar energy storage. Franklin: That seems like quite a—it seems like-- Bates: It was traumatic to me. And our whole group underwent a similar transition. Franklin: How can you move to solar energy storage? Bates: That was popular in those days. Alternative energy—price of oil was creeping up. Franklin: Still is, though, kind of, right? Bates: Well, still very interesting. A lot of these things we were the first to look at them as alternatives. Some of those now are becoming standard grid power. Solar cells, for example. That was a little—our fluids group didn’t work on the solar cells area, pretty much; that’s the electronics people. But we were working on solar concentrator mirrors and developing proper fluids to circulate through those things and capture the thermal energy, run it through a turbine and produce power. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did that research ever amount to any industrial application? Bates: Oh, there were experimental facilities around the country that utilized that technology. I don’t think it ever got to as large a scale as some of the solar cell farms that exist now. You know, they got five-megawatt farms, ten-megawatt farms. The solar salt pond concept that we were working on was a good idea but it had a lot of technical difficulties. One of them being materials. Those brines are very tough to contain and very corrosive, and the materials get very expensive very fast. You got to use—stainless steel isn’t good enough; you got to go to the Inconel nickel-based metals. Pretty soon, the economics don’t make sense. Franklin: You can do it in a laboratory— Bates: You can do it in a lab, but the scale-up process is difficult. Franklin: Right. So, you mentioned that you used LDA for ten to 15 years or so. Bates: Yeah. Franklin: And I’m wondering, what came after that? What did— Bates: Well, like I said, once they commercialized those systems and—we did a lot of work for Electric Power Research Institute, which was a consortium of utilities to how to improve reactor performance, improve safety— Franklin: And this was for energy reactors, right? Okay. Bates: Yes. These are energy reactors, commercial reactors. Franklin: Commercial reactors. Bates: So we got very much involved on the non-government side of reactor research. At the time, Battelle had a contract that allowed us to not only work for the government, but work for the private side, what we called our 1831 contract. Franklin: Right. Yeah, I’m familiar with that number. Bates: So we could go out and sell to—we actually marketed to the various reactor vendors to do research with these tools that we’d developed, primarily for the production reactors. We did research for Westinghouse and Babcock and Wilcox, and most all of the reactor vendors at the time. So it was a good business. Worked hard. When you get on the private side, the budgets are more constrained and the schedules are tight. Many a time, we’d put in 24 hour days. We’d take our sleeping bags out to D Area and grab two-hour cat naps as we were— Franklin: Oh, wow. So you were still working out in D Area then—would this have been in the ‘80s and ‘90s? Bates: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Up until—I forget when we closed the building there. They told us they were going to knock down—starting the Site reclamation process, and we had to get out. I wrote Madia a letter to say, these are very valuable tools you’re throwing away and they will never be recreated because they’re too expensive now. But it fell on deaf ears and we basically walked away from that facility. We did recreate some test facilities in the 336 Building in 300 Area. It was a big highbay building that was left over from the days of the Fast Flux Test Facility. I was responsible for building a big waste tank storage simulation facility in 336 Building where we started developing tools to monitor tank levels and tank mixing and tank retrieval. We tested some of these robotic concepts for going in and retrieving tank waste, which are being used now. I mean, the tank retrieval going on right now has a lot of technologies that we investigated in the 336 Building at a reduced scale. Franklin: Oh! Bates: So it’s pretty rewarding to see some of that stuff. Also, Vit Plant, we were in on the early days of the mixing concerns of the tanks in the early days related to the Vit Plant and the treatment of the tank waste. For example, the pulse jet mixer problem, which is still very much in the news, holding up portions of the design. We did a lot of pulse jet mixer studies in 336 Building. I read these technical articles that are still coming out and they’re still doing some of the very same things I was doing back in the late '90s. Franklin: Right? Bates: These problems are very difficult. Nobody’s ever tried to mix fluids—well, the kind we’ve got out in these tanks. Very complex. Franklin: Yeah, I don’t know a lot—what I know is there’s many different characteristics, like there’s solids and semi-solids and they all have very different— Bates: They behave—what they call non-Newtonian fluids. When you start worrying about transporting non-Newtonian fluids and transporting the solids fraction in that fluid, like the plutonium particles and other radioisotope particles, these things settle out in the wrong places, you got problems. Franklin: Right. And a lot of these things will react to heat in different ways. Bates: Oh, the chemical—the tanks, we used to refer to them as a periodic chart soup. I mean, they’ve got a little of everything in them. And just the characterization of that waste is a very difficult problem. Franklin: Sure. You mean how to— Bates: Understand the chemistry that’s going on. I mean, you probably remember the SY-101 Tank with the hydrogen generation problem. That’s something that we worked on. Franklin: Actually, I’m not familiar with that. I’m wondering if you could tell me about that. Bates: Oh, it’s one of the old double-shell tanks. They started noticing that the level was going up on occasion. And then it would go back down. Well, what was happening is, due to a chemical process, thermolysis, they call it, hydrogen was being generated in rather large bubbles in that tank waste. When the bubble got big enough, it would burst to the top. The headspace in the tank would go above the flammability limit for hydrogen and if there were a spark from whatever source, you could have a rather major disaster. Franklin: You could have a tank blowup, basically. Bates: Which did happen in Russia. I don’t know if you’ve ever read any of their—they had some incidents like that. Franklin: Yeah, they had a major incident in the ‘50s, right? Where they had a-- Bates: Yup, I don’t know the exact date, but they had a-- Franklin: Yeah, where a cool—a waste tank blew up— Bates: They ruptured a tank, right. Franklin: Yes, and it killed a lot of people. Bates: Well, of course when DOE found out that they had these hydrogen events in these waste tanks, it was all hands on deck, we got to solve this problem. Franklin: Right, we’ll likely have the same— Bates: Right. So a lot of our computer models got diverted to modeling that situation. We on the experimental side got excited about coming up with mitigation techniques. How can we improve the mixing? How can we prevent this hydrogen bubble buildup problem? That consumed us for a number of years. Franklin: Yeah. Was it solved? Bates: What’s that? Oh, yeah. SY-101 was eventually solved and the hydrogen release problem was mitigated. Franklin: What was the solution? Bates: Well, I think—you’re going back, really testing my memory here now. Probably better to read some of the technical reports on this, but they did a lot of transfers in and out of the tank. Add liquid, bring contents of several tanks, get the chemistry to a more acceptable condition, and improve the monitoring and the mixing. They basically got it to where the hydrogen is still being generated, but it wasn’t being stored and released in these periodic events which can lead to—you know, if you save up the hydrogen for a couple of months and release it all in a single event, the concentration goes up drastically. But we came up with mixing techniques that allowed it to do a slow release and keep the concentrations down. Franklin: So it’s still building hydrogen— Bates: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --but it’s not in these massive bubbles that then— Bates: Well, that thermal generation of hydrogen is always going to happen. The chemistry can’t be changed. But you got to prevent it from building up to concentrations of concern. So hydrogen generation is a problem they’re dealing with in building the Vit Plant. They don’t want any incidents like that to be occurring in the process lines of the Vit Plant. Franklin: Right, because they have heat there. They could conceivably spark it. Bates: Well, yeah. You don’t have to necessarily heat it. I mean, these isotopes self-heat. [LAUGHTER] They will generate hydrogen. So that is very much on the radar screens of everybody doing design work now. But we were in on the early days when the problem first came to light. Franklin: Did that problem—sorry if you mentioned this, but did this problem come to light—that came because of discoveries here at Hanford, not because of the Russian incident. Or was it kind of—did they kind of inform each other? Bates: The Russians didn’t publicize much of what was going on. I mean, they didn’t write technical papers that we could reference. So it was a problem that was understood—I mean, the chemistry and the generation of hydrogen was understood, but the physical characteristics of the waste and how it could retain this hydrogen in bubbles, that was all pretty new stuff. Franklin: Okay. Bates: We had to understood the mechanisms by which it was happening before we could go about coming up with a fix to prevent it from happening. Franklin: Sure, sure. Bates: So, took a lot of—there was a lot what I call grade-five engineering going on out there to understand this problem. We had chemists and physicists and engineers all collaborating on a daily basis to, what’s going on here? And we got to solve this problem and it can’t wait. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering if—I’d like to ask you about a couple more events and how they impacted you or if they did. I’m wondering, did you ever work on any of the WPPSS reactors or do any work for WPPSS? Bates: Oh, I did work for them. We did some, for example, I was in routine business for a while of doing flow meter calibrations, and they have a lot of large flow meters out there. Out at 189-D, we had what we called our low pressure loop with very large pumps. We could do flowmeter calibrations there in the lab up to couple thousand GPM. Franklin: What’s GPM? Bates: Gallons per minute. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bates: In fact, at one time we did a flowmeter calibration for the City of Los Angeles that we needed a million gallons per minute. We fired up a couple of the old K Reactor river pumps. This flowmeter was in a pipe that was six-and-a-half feet in diameter. This was largescale engineering. And actually did a flowmeter calibration for the City of Los Angeles so they’d know how much water they were pumping into their domestic water supply system. So we got involved in all kinds of little tangents, because of the capabilities we had. Franklin: I’m wondering how Chernobyl affected you and the Site? Bates: [LAUGHTER] In my mind, Chernobyl was the beginning of the end for graphite moderated reactors. The emphasis was on shutting those things down. Franklin: Right. And that’s what was at Hanford. Bates: I lived through Chernobyl and I lived through—I was working when Three Mile Island happened. Franklin: Oh, right. Bates: I got to go back and visit Three Mile Island about three or four months after it happened. Franklin: Why was that? Bates: Trying to understand how that happened. And, as you know, I think it finally boiled down to operator error. They closed some valves that shouldn’t’ve been closed because they didn’t understand the thermohydraulics of the reactor. So once we understood that and could simulate it with our codes, they started doing extensive training to the operators so they understood how this worked. Trained their whole—changed their whole training procedure for reactor operators. Made a big difference. [LAUGHTER] They needed to understand the very—the subtleties of what was going on in a reactor. If the operators had got up and walked off, the reactor would’ve been fine. The automated systems would’ve done the right thing. They overrode some of those and caused a problem. Anytime that we—we had enough expertise in our group, anytime there was a reactor problem, we usually got involved. Even the Fukushima tsunami damage over there, some of our people went over there and spent time with the Japanese helping them to resolve—look into that problem, what could be done about it. So a lot of history in our group in helping the world with nuclear problems. Franklin: Yeah. Did you ever get to—did you ever go to the Ukraine or Russia after— Bates: No, unh-uh. A good number of our people did. We certainly got involved with some of our personnel in the Chernobyl encapsulation project where they were trying to put the big dome over the reactor to prevent the further spread of the contaminants. I forget the name of that project; again, there was an acronym. But, yeah, our people got involved in that, too. Understanding airborne transport of contaminants and particulates. There’s still efforts going on in that area. That problem is not going away anytime soon. Franklin: How did the transition between production and then the signing of the Tri-Party and the beginning of cleanup, how did that affect your research and your efforts? Bates: Well, we had a lot of good tools developed. I mean, a fluid is a fluid. Nuclear waste is a very interesting fluid. Just trying to come up with simulants for it is very difficult. We spent years trying to develop formulations that can, in a cold environment, allow us to do testing with properties of fluids that are similar to what the waste exhibits. That’s a difficult problem. Many a day, we were out there mixing up different batches of waste simulant. It’s a very dirty job because it involves a lot of fine particulates and clays. Many a day, I came home, red dust head to foot. [LAUGHTER] But we eventually came up with some very good simulants, and they’re being used not only here onsite but other labs doing similar research. So those were interesting days, too. Franklin: How was morale onsite with the switch from production to cleanup? Bates: Oh, obviously when you put—for example, like that project, I put three years of my life, night and day, long days— Franklin: Are you talking about the FFTF project? Bates: Yeah, where I was working on the natural convection cooling of—basically, an accident condition analysis of LMFBRs. I mean, I traveled to vendors all over the country and worked with them to develop hardware and come up with special pumps and instruments. I designed a test section with sapphire windows in it. Each of those sapphire windows was $10,000 and I needed like 20 of them. We only installed two or three of those windows and the balance of them got shipped off to excess. I mean, that’s not good for morale. [LAUGHTER] We had to have the sapphire because of the frequency of the lasers we were using to do the LDA work. You can’t use normal glass, or even—and quartz wasn’t strong enough to stand up to the conditions we were testing, so we had to use synthetic sapphire. Yeah. So, I had to work with the vendors to come up with the production techniques and how to machine these into our special shapes. Anyway, I had half-a-million dollars in hardware that was ready to run a test and I never got to run a test. So, yeah, there were similar stories all around the lab where it was this transition was very difficult. Franklin: You mean the end of the ‘80s transition from production to— Bates: Yes. The end of the ‘80s, the death of the nuclear industry so to speak— Franklin: The ending of the Cold War. Bates: The transitioning—yeah, the end of the—as some of our folks used to say, once the Soviet Union proved to be such an unreliable enemy, when they split up and the wall came down, and production became less important, and the environmental movement of course. We had to clean up this mess. That was a transition for all of us. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Was there a lot of enthusiasm for this new job? Bates: Yes! As you get into it and find out just how complex it is. I mean, it’s not like opening a can of soup. I mean, you got to understand the problem first and that takes a lot of research. Then coming up how we could best simulate it, how we can model it, both computationally and experimentally, a lot of challenges. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. I’m wondering, how did that transition affect the Tri-Cities as a whole? Bates: Well, Tri-Cities, you know, has undergone numerous transitions. The biggest one was when they shut down the WPPSS reactor construction. Housing prices tanked and tens of thousands people leave town. Franklin: Because there were supposed to be three reactors here, right? Bates: There were supposed to be three, right. The remnants of the other two are still out there. In fact, I’ve been involved in numerous visits out there of saying, what else could we do with these things? I mean, there’s all kinds of pumps and piping. We were looking at it for additional test facilities. Franklin: Oh, okay. Because they just walked away from construction, right, when it defaulted? Bates: Yup. Yup. Yeah. Several monuments to stupidity out there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I like that. Oh, that’s good. I love hearing about these things from people who were out there. Bates: You can imagine being an engineer out there working on getting a new reactor online and saying, oh, never mind. You can go home; we aren’t going to do that now. That’s hard on people. You commit your lives to it and now you got to go find something else to do. Franklin: Right, and you wonder if that’s really the best fiscal choice. Bates: Yeah, oh, yeah. Franklin: Because you spent all this— Bates: Well, I mean, in hindsight, would it have been better if we had had those reactors online and we didn’t have to burn as much coal and oil? Now that global warming is the big concern? I think there might have been some different things done. Franklin: Yeah, that’s kind of always that tension. I know the nuclear industry, that’s one of their main talking points now is that it’s carbon-free. Bates: My best example I always bring up is France. They’re 85% nuclear. They’ve closed the fuel cycle with reprocessing. They don’t have too much of a concern about generating their carbon footprint in the power production industry. We could’ve been there, too. But we made some wrong turns. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering kind of two questions back-to-back, kind of one’s a flip of the other. What were the most challenging aspects of your work at Hanford over your 35 years? Bates: Challenging aspects, oh. Because we’re a research institution, we’re always doing things for the very first time. Anytime you have to invent the hardware to do the research, that’s—you can’t just open up a catalogue and order three of item A and three of item B and go do your test; you have to design it first. That puts a lot of pressure on you when the budgets are fixed and the schedules are fixed and you’ve got to come up with an answer. That’s the nature— Franklin: In fact a lot of the stuff you’re building then gets later put into catalogues, right? Bates: Oh, yeah. We generated quite a number of patents and so forth in the process of building these things. But nobody ever factors in the fact that this has never been done before, and you want me to give you a fixed budget, a fixed schedule, to get this job done? I found that tough. And I’m sure people today are still challenged with the same difficulties. Everybody wants to know when you’re going to be done and how much it’s going to cost. Franklin: Any notable successes or failures in that aspect of kind of building this hardware for the first time? Bates: Oh. You learned a lot from your failures. Franklin: Yeah. I’m wondering, is there an example that comes to mind? Bates: Oh. Phew. Well, the one I always remember that was kind of traumatic to me is, I mentioned those sapphire windows we were building. I was doing a test for basic energy sciences in Washington, DC, trying to understand a basic concept called thermal [UNKNOWN] vapor generation. This is where, for example, in a reactor blow-down condition, where you superheat a liquid and you wanted to understand how the process of turning that flash into steam. Well, I had to get visible access to my blow-down venturi nozzle. And I built one of these sapphire windows. It was about 20 inches long, three inches wide. Cost me—I forget what the number was, $60,000 a copy for these windows. I took it out of the box. We had special silver plated gaskets designed. I put it on there, put the frame on, tightened the first two bolts. Cracked it right in the middle. [LAUGHTER] I went down—first I went home, because I was done for the day. The next day, I went back and went down and talked to our machinist down in the optical shop, and I says—I forget his name; I think his name was Doug—what can we do here? He says, well, I can take those two broken pieces and turn them into two smaller windows. So I went back and redesigned the test section with two small frames. It was cheaper to rebuild the metal parts than it was the windows. And we made that one window into two small windows and proceeded to get the test done. But [LAUGHTER] those are the kind of days where you go, yeah, we should’ve checked the dimensions on that retainer before we tried the assembly. I trusted that the shop had gotten them right, and they were slightly off. So you learn lessons there. I never broke another window. Franklin: I bet! [LAUGHTER] Not at $60,000 a pop. What were the most rewarding aspects about your work? Bates: Oh, what I found was coming to work every day, up until—you’re always working on something different. I didn’t get stuck in a rut. For example, Boeing made me a job offer that was very lucrative, but I found out I would be designing landing gear struts. And I just thought, could I do that for 30 years? I don’t think so. Franklin: Was this at the beginning of your--? Bates: Yeah, this was at the beginning of my career. The reason I went to work for Battelle is because of the variety of the work they were doing. My example I always used to tell our—when we were actively hiring and brining interview candidates through is, I said that simultaneously I was working on liquid metal fast breeder reactors and peanut dryers. I worked half the week on peanut dryers and half the week on fast breeder reactors. Franklin: Like for industrial—like, agro business to dry peanuts. Bates: Yeah, like, salted-in-the-shell peanuts. Getting the moisture out of those things is a difficult job. And especially trying to do it and conserve electricity and natural gas in the drying process. Franklin: So that would’ve been some of that 1831 work. Bates: That’s some of that 1831 work, yeah. So I had to put—I had two different hats. Doing that simultaneously was sometimes a little traumatic to switch gears. But that kept it interesting. There wasn’t a day I didn’t come to work where I thought, there’s something interesting to do today. There’s not many jobs you can have that are that way. Franklin: That’s great. Bates: In fact, I shed a few tears when it came time to retire. Franklin: Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about that. You retired in 2008, and what was the impetus for—because you’re still a young guy. So what was— Bates: Well, my wife and I love to travel. We’ve been to Europe, I don’t know, 18 times. We love the history and that. Trying to squeeze that in with a 40- to 60-hour work week is pretty tough to do. When we first got married, we said, let’s set our objective on trying to retire early so we could do some things while we’re young enough to enjoy it. So it was tough. I had two sons, and trying to put all that money away and meet that objective to retire early was tough. We stayed in our old house and didn’t upgrade to a new and bigger house like everybody else. But we made it. Best decision I ever made. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Do you miss the work sometimes? Bates: Oh, yeah. In fact, back a few years ago, I was kind of hoping to go back to work. But the rules were that I couldn’t go back to work until age 62 once I took the retirement package. They had rules in their contract that they couldn’t rehire retirees. Those have since been changed; I could work now. But we’re kind of lacking in experimental facilities out here now that I would be interested in working on. I still tell my old section manager that if you ever get the budget to rebuild some experimental facilities, I’d be happy to come out and help. [LAUGHTER] But just don’t ask me to write a safety plan. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, red tape. So I guess two questions left. I’m wondering if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy about what you were doing at Hanford impacted your work. Bates: Oh, I mean, secrecy—when I first hired on out there, it was still very hush-hush. Everybody out there had a Q clearance in those days. And we worked on some things that we couldn’t write papers on. We were doing a lot of leading-edge stuff, but we didn’t go off to the conferences and present our findings. We got involved in the tritium production, supporting production. That was a very big project. But, boy, very closely-controlled. Classified computers, classified phone lines, classified fax machines. I mean, communications were very tightly controlled. Franklin: What did you do for the tritium project? Bates: Oh, there were some thermal aspects that our group got involved in. I mean, I can’t—even now, I can’t talk about a lot of this stuff. I mean, just because I retired, it doesn’t King’s X my security requirements. We worked on some stuff for the military that related to weapons; we worked on stuff for kinetic projectiles—I mean, this is really interesting stuff. Made my day. But we couldn’t go out and write papers about it and put it in the general literature. So it’s much different than a university environment where it’s publish or perish. If we published, we’d perish. [LAUGHTER] So, a lot of people we hired—we hired some, not retired, but professors that wanted to come work in research. It wasn’t an easy transition for them to come into the classified environment, where you have to be so careful. We had a couple people that just never did make the transition. Franklin: That’s still a constant tension within university research, when it deals with—for Army applications or things that are export controlled, there’s always that—the export control office fights with the—and how freely—that kind of tugs at the essential purpose of the university, which is to create and disseminate information. Yeah. Bates: I got a little exposed to that as an undergraduate research assistant up at WSU. Professor Clayton Crowe up there was working on some experimental simulations of underwater rocket launchers related to ICBM rocket launchers from submarines. We were trying to mock up some of that stuff. I got a briefing on how much we could say and couldn’t say about some of this stuff we were working on. That was kind of my introduction to working in a, it wasn’t what I would call classified, but it was certainly sensitive information. I was able to handle it; I tried to take as much satisfaction I could from just what I was personally working on. I didn’t want to—resume building wasn’t what I was after. Some people don’t have that same priorities, I guess. They want to make themselves look good rather than just enjoy the work they’re doing. I mean, publishing is still encouraged, highly encouraged. That’s the only way we really got of advertising our abilities out here. Franklin: There’s kind of a tension there, too. Bates: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, over the years, I’ve probably published 20, 30 papers. And enjoyed going off to the conferences and interacting with our peers and learning new things. For example, there was a yearly LDA symposium held in Portugal. We usually had somebody there for about the first five or six years that that conference was held because we were doing leading-edge stuff. It was fun to share the information with people. Franklin: And probably fun to go to Portugal, too. Bates: Oh, yeah. I mean, there’s worse places in the world. The first time I went over there, it was really interesting. Bottle of water was a nickel and a beer was a nickel. So you can guess which one I drunk. Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, that’s great. [LAUGHTER] My last question—of course, not, like—on your off time, right? Bates: Oh, yeah. In fact, we went over and did—the conference was over the 4th of July holiday. I actually presented my paper to 2,000 people on the 4th of July. So, I took a comp day the next day, and we went and tour Lisbon. Franklin: Fun. My last question is—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and working in Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Bates: Being a lifelong resident of the Tri-Cities, I’ve not known any different. It’s not like there was any kind of trauma involved with moving here and seeing the big nuclear symbols and the Richland Bombers. That’s just normal to me. And I think if I were to tell somebody, it’s a very stable community, it’s a very healthy community. There’s a lot of interesting things going on. And what we’re doing out here has the ability to diversify into many different areas that make a difference. I’m sure by the time we’re done with the Vit Plant, 50 years out in the future, we’re going to be doing some things with that technology that will impact commercial aspects of our economy in all kinds of ways. But when you do leading-edge stuff, you make a difference. So I guess that would be a short summary. Franklin: No, that’s great, thank you. Bates: I think there’s a lot of personal satisfaction in that. Like I said, when we were doing the early days of LDA, it was an idea that came out of University of Minnesota, and we got one of their PhDs to come out here and go to work for us and bring that knowledge, and we continued to develop it and make it better. It eventually became a commercial market, selling literally hundreds of these systems to research institutions all around the country. There’s a lot of satisfaction in that. So it goes from a concept to a standard tool. That’s where I got my kicks, anyway. Franklin: That’s great. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming and talking about your work. Bates: Yeah. Okay. Franklin: It was really amazing. Bates: Okay. Thank you. Franklin: Yeah. Awesome. Bates: Go Cougs! Franklin: Yeah. Go Cougs. <a href="https://youtu.be/5UAoeTFmc8A">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor N Reactor 189-D Area 190 Tank Building FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) 336 Building 300 Area Vitrification Plant WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1974-2008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Bates Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Mechanical engineering Nuclear reactors Nuclear power plants Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear reactor accidents Description An account of the resource James Bates was born in Pasco, Washington in 1952 and grew up in Kennewick, Washington. James worked at Battelle Northwest from 1974-2008. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/03/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b9b824c2876af5e43f239333ee53cf6.JPG 91a00d141b86347a69036b0521d1e0ea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview John Skinner Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Pruitt Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound John Skinner: Ladies and gentlemen, my name is John Skinner for the African American for an Academic Society History and Recognition Committee. Our committee has been involved with ongoing interviews with African American men and women that was brought or were lured to the Tri-City area in 1943-45 for the Manhattan Project, formally became known as the Hanford Atomic Energy Commission, and subsequent projects. Tonight we have with us, we have Jim Pruitt, a long-time resident. James, excuse me, James Pruitt, a long-time resident of the Tri-City area, community activist, civil rights leader, human rights leader, youth counselor, and a number of other things. Jim also has a wealth of knowledge about the Tri-City area and Pasco, and Pasco in particular. So, we’re going to get started here, Jim, on this interview. And some of the basic questions we want to ask is in connection with the Tri-City area. Jim, when did you come to the Tri-City area? James Pruitt: I came to the Tri-City area in 1948. I got here on June 20th, on my wife’s birthday. Skinner: Well, James, did you come alone when you came to the Tri-Cities or Pasco or Hanford? Pruitt: That was the only—well, another guy, a friend of mine from Los Angeles, Bill Mathias. Skinner: Bill Mathias? Pruitt: And I came up with me on the bus. Skinner: Okay, okay. Jim, let me ask another question. Approximately, how old were you when you came to this area? Pruitt: I were 22 years old. Skinner: 22 years old, okay. Jim, when you came to the Tri-Cities, was there a particular city that you lived in, since now we have Pasco, Kennewick and Richland? Was there any one of those particular communities that you first— Pruitt: I first lived in Richland in the barracks. Because when I got here, it was on Saturday. I went to the union hall. I worked labor. And I had a meeting with the business agent. So they dispatched me out for work Monday morning. I went to work out in Richland on the housing project up there. Skinner: Jim, what was the name of the housing project that you went to work? Do you remember? In Richland? Pruitt: It was—in Richland, it was Militant Sound, was the construction company that I worked for. Skinner: The contractor that you worked for? Pruitt: I worked for them. Skinner: Okay. Pruitt: Militant Sounds Project in Richland on the Bypass highway. Skinner: Okay. Jim, let me back up a little bit. When you came to the Tri-Cities and, say, Pasco, or Richland barracks, where did you come from when you came here? Pruitt: I came from Los Angeles. Skinner: Los Angeles? Pruitt: Los Angeles, California. Skinner: Okay. Jim, you’re native to what state? Pruitt: Mississippi. Skinner: Mississippi, okay. Pruitt: Mississippi. Skinner: Okay. Let me ask you this next question, Jim. How did you hear about Hanford? Or when did you hear about Hanford? What did you hear about Hanford that— Pruitt: Well, a friend of mine, in fact, it was my sister’s boyfriend, Emmett Hoy, came up here. And he was working out there for Militant Sound for the project where I went to work. I was working in Los Angeles, and he asked me if I wanted to make some money, to come up to Richland, Washington. So I decided to come up here and I stayed up here for six months. The dust and the tumbleweeds were so bad, I left and went back to Los Angeles and stayed three months. And I came back. And I’ve been here ever since. Skinner: Okay. Jim, let’s talk about the social environment in the Tri-City area, you know, again, Pasco, Kennewick, and Richland, for the African American at that time, 1948. What was the relationship between the African American and the white community or the majority community at that time? Pruitt: Bad. Skinner: Give me a— Pruitt: Very, very prejudiced. Very racist. I was surprised when I came here to find a place that I had left a few years back from Mississippi and came here and found the same thing that I found in Mississippi. Skinner: So we—again, we’re talking about we just had blatant and overt racism and discrimination towards the African American community. Pruitt: Yes. Skinner: Was it, again, was that exhibited as not only—was it on the job? Pruitt: It was on the job, it was in housing, it was in foods, restaurants, it was in the bars, in the lounges, and wherever you went, there was a sign—[LAUGHTER] If it wasn’t a sign, it was, no, we don’t serve you in here. We don’t serve your kind. We couldn’t eat. I remember 1950, Hazel Scott suing the bus station. Skinner: Mm-hmm, when you say the bus station, was this— Pruitt: Greyhound bus station. Skinner: Greyhound bus station? Pruitt: Greyhound bus station, because she was going to Richland to perform. And that was Adam Clayton Powell’s wife. She was an entertainer. She went to the bar to get some food. They were riding the Greyhound bus, she and her secretary. They told her they didn’t serve black people in there. So she went back and sat down and her secretary was white, and she goes to the bar, and they gave her the whole setup, and the whole courtesy and everything. And she said, you know, I don’t want to eat. They said, why? She said, because you refused my boss. Mrs. Scott is my boss. And they went over and asked Mrs. Scott to eat, and they apologized to her for what they had done. And she says, no, why should I eat now that I’m good for $50,000. So she sued the bus station. From 1950 to this day, the bus station has not been anything progressive, nothing. Skinner: Okay, okay. Jim, let me speak on—or say on the economics, in terms of comparable pay at that time, we’ll say, for the white community. Doing the same work that—a black was doing the same work that the whites were doing, was it the same pay involved, or was it lesser pay? Pruitt: No, it was the same pay, because it was union. The guys that worked in the union, it was same pay. But they tried to see that the white guys got the better jobs, the higher-paying jobs, like foreman, supervisors, and whatever. Skinner: Okay, Jim, also on that note, we’re speaking on the—we spoke about some of the accommodations in restaurants and other public facilities. Let me ask you this question. In 1948, we had some groups that was formed in the black community. Could you give me any information on some groups that were formed? Was it the human relations committee that was formed around those times? Pruitt: The most that I can remember started in 1949, like the East Pasco Improvement Association. That was started in 1949. Out of that, came the Tri-Cities Human Rights Commission. Mrs. Merricks and Mr. Merricks and other people, Shirley Shepard and her husband, Mr. Shepard. Skinner: Also on that committee, did you say that was Heidlebaugh? Pruitt: Yeah. Skinner: Heidlebaugh was on that? Pruitt: George Heidlebaugh. Skinner: Okay, and we had some other members. Pruitt: Luzell Johnson. Skinner: Luzell Johnson, Iola James. Pruitt: Iola James, Ray Henry. Joe Bush. Gilbert Owens. We had, I think—who was Mr.—Miner. Charlie Miner. He was one of the guys on that. Skinner: Jim, you were also saying that you went to work in ’48, and you were working on the housing project on the Bypass highway in Richland. At that time, Jim, I know that there were African Americans working on the Hanford Project. Could you tell me if there was a large number of African Americans, a small number of African Americans, that was employed on that Department of Energy site, or the Atomic Energy Commission, or—were there many African Americans employed on that? Pruitt: Yes, there was quite a few African Americans. I can’t give you a round figure of what it was, but there was quite a few African Americans. Skinner: Can you recall some of the job description, the titles of some of the African Americans that did work on the Project? Were they laborers? Pruitt: Laborer, cement finisher and painter. And a truck driver every now and then. They’re riding this truck and it wasn’t—they’d haul the honey wagon. That was the only thing that they could get. They couldn’t get no higher than that. Skinner: So the jobs were limited— Pruitt: Were limited. Skinner: --to menial task jobs and also back-breaking jobs as far as laborers and stuff like that. Pruitt: That’s right. Skinner: And very little chance for advancement. Pruitt: Yup, that’s right. There was no supervisors or foremans or none of that on that job. Camera man: We need to change the tape. [VIDEO CUTS] Skinner: So, Jim, let me—we were just talking about employment. And obviously we see that there was a disparity in employment, and also there was—the African Americans were limited in being able to elevate themselves above just a certain level. Let me ask a question on the African American women. If they were employed, what type of employment, most generally, were the African American women? Pruitt: Dishwashers, a few cooks (not many), bed makers, that kind of thing. Skinner: So it would be an African American woman at that time, again, 1948, was more domestic? Pruitt: House-making, yeah, housekeeping, more or less. Skinner: Okay. Jim, let’s go on to social entertainment for African Americans, say, ’48, and let’s work down, work this way. What type of entertainment as far as if it’s night clubs, eating establishments, that black businessmen/businesswomen in the community—what was the social life like at that time for blacks? Pruitt: Ho, ho, ho, ho. Well, they had one club to go to at that time. That was out on Lewis Street. What is the name of the club? I have to think. I forgot it already. But there was only one club at that time. And I think 1950 was when Mr. Moore, last of ’49, first of ’50, he had a club down there on 1st and Lewis Street. The M&M was a place where you could go and eat. It was next door there. Skinner: When you say the M&M, [LAUGHTER] I know that’s initials for something. Do you know what the M&M stood for, as far as the restaurant or that eating establishment? Pruitt: I don’t know what. That was the name of it. The M&M. I don’t know what—[LAUGHTER] But I was trying to think of Mr. Moore’s night spot he had there. God, I can’t think. Leonard Moore: Poulet Palace. Pruitt: Poulet Palace is what it was, right. Yeah, that was the swinging place in town, was the Poulet Palace. But the other place across the street over there, that was where most of the people hung out at one time when I first came in 1948. It was the only place that I know that black people could go. I have to come back to that name, because I can’t think of it right now. Skinner: Okay, we got time, we can come back to it, Jim. Also, again, as far as black businesses, and we use the term entrepreneur here today, right or wrongly, but black businesses, were they limited at that time? Pruitt: Oh, yes. Yes. Mrs. Iola James had a trailer court. That was her business. Mr. and Mrs. Haney had a trailer court. And eventually they had a pool hall and stuff there. It was about—you know, eventually as the years went by. And they built a tavern over there, Norse’s Tavern. And Ms. Iola James had a restaurant in there. That was kind of entertainment and that was a black business. Skinner: Okay. What was that—you said Norse’s Tavern and you said Mrs. James had a restaurant in there. Where was that located? What was the location of that? Pruitt: On Oregon and—was that—hmm. What was that street? Moore: It was south of Lewis Street. It was kind of south of Lewis Street. Pruitt: Yeah, it was— Skinner: Columbia? Hagerman? Marvin? Pruitt: I think it was Hagerman. Skinner: It was Hagerman? Pruitt: Yeah. Skinner: Okay, okay. Mrs. James—you mentioned Mrs. James, and she had a trailer park business. Where was that located? Pruitt: 820 South Oregon. Right in the middle of where Mr. Moore’s junkyard is today. [LAUGHTER] Pruitt: That’s where my kids was born, right in the middle of the junkyard. [LAUGHTER] Skinner: Okay. And I know that there were other businesses, and as far as trailer park owners. Pruitt: Aretha and Bob—Robert Dillon had a trailer court. Skinner: Okay, what was the names again? Pruitt: Bob—Robert Dillon and his wife, Mrs. Dillon. Skinner: Right? Pruitt: Aretha. Skinner: I want to make sure we get the-- [camera man]: Try not to hide your mouth with that, with your glasses. [VIDEO CUTS] Skinner: Okay. Also, Jim, on some of the black businesses, I know it appeared to be a number of blacks at that time, because housing was limited and substandard at most, but at that time, most of the living was in trailer parks for African Americans in Pasco, east Pasco if you want to section it off, and there was a number of trailer parks. I don’t remember the names of the individuals besides Mrs. James and Dillon. I understand that Mr. Ely had a trailer park. Ed Ely’s father. There was a Bud Walker had a little trailer park. Pruitt: Yeah, he had a little trailer park there. Eventually, there was Dew Drop Inn. I almost forgot that. JD Evans had the Dew Drop Inn. That was a little hole-in-the-wall. We had that. It was a black business. Skinner: Okay. Were there any other businesses that as you recall and as we’re going over this, black businessmen or women, as limited as it was as that time? Pruitt: No, that’s about—that was it. You couldn’t live no place else in town but east Pasco. That was the limit of black businesses there and that was the—Ms. James, Iola James, and JD’s place was it. And then years after that, I guess, well, in 1955, Ed Jackson opened up the place. It was Jack’s Bar and Grill. That was the really beginning the hangout of most black people was this restaurant, this bar. Skinner: Jim, let me go on and just speak in terms of the black community and the black churches where the blacks’ worship area. At that time—and I’m speaking, again, from the time ’48 and early years—where were the paces of worship for African American men and women and children in the area? Or was it also very limited at that time? Pruitt: Yeah, it was. You know, they had two churches at that time. It was Morning Star Baptist Church and the Church of God and Christ was the only two churches. And Saint James was built in 1950, the Methodist church, CME church. And from the expansion came New Hope Baptist Church now, and then Greater Faith. And I understand there’s a Seventh Day Adventist in—and then there was another, Holiest Church. Reverend Vaughn, the two churches split and that was two church, one of them was the Holiest Church and the other was the Church of God and Christ, I guess, the way it split. Skinner: James, let me again ask the question. We know the race relationship at the time was bad at worst. Jim, when did you see any changes on the horizon in the black community in the Tri-Cities? When did we start seeing some substantial changes, social change, in the area? Pruitt: After 1964. Skinner: And that’s dealing with—we’ll say 1964, 1964 Civil Rights Act and the Affirmative Action. Pruitt: Yes, that’s right. Skinner: And that was some of the most significant changes was occurring at that time for the blacks and the black community. Pruitt: Yes, because we still could not go to Kennewick and any place, enter the clubs at night and stuff like that. Skinner: Okay. Jim, tell me a little bit about Kennewick at that time as far as blacks being able to freely move in the City of Kennewick. It sounds there was no freedom to move in Kennewick. Pruitt: There was no freedom to move in Kennewick. There was only one grocery store in the Tri-Cities at that time stayed open after midnight. It was Tri-City Foods. And if you go across the river to that store, the police were sitting out there somewhere. If you went anywhere like you was going downtown, they would stop you and tell you you was on the wrong side of the river. And you had to come back on this side. You could go to the movies, but that was it. When you get out of the movies, you come on back across the river. Skinner: It was just that pervasive? Pruitt: Yes, it was. No eating, no messing around in Kennewick, period. Skinner: Okay. Jim was there—you know, again, we’re talking about that, you know—we’ve seen how things was blatant and pervasive. Did the African American men and women, when they did, we’ll say, cohabitate or comingle with the white community, were they subject to derogatory treatment of any kind? Were they treated with an even hand? Pruitt: No, they weren’t treated with an evil hand. But you always stood back. You was never their friend. A lot of times, as long as you was on a job with the guys, they’d laugh and talk and treat you like you was a part of them. But then when they get off and you meet them on the street in Kennewick with his wife and kids, he acted like he didn’t know you. He wouldn’t speak to you. Sure. It was a lot of that, man. It’s like I said, I didn’t know that this place would be like that when I came here. That you couldn’t walk into a restaurant and sit down and eat. You could not do it in Kennewick. Skinner: Okay, Jim, let’s talk about Jim—James a little bit more. James, I know that you’ve been involved in any number of activities, organizations, as I said earlier, being a human rights, civil rights, community relations, working with the youth. Jim, tell us a little bit about some of yourself and some of the miles that you’ve walked as far as some of your job descriptions over the years, being involved in the East Pasco Improvement Association and a number of other groups. Tell us a little bit about yourself and why you were involved. Obviously, you cared, so that’s why you were involved. I can remember— [VIDEO CUTS] [man off-camera]: Okay. Skinner: Again, Jim—James, as I was saying, tell us a little bit about yourself. Again, because I know myself, as a younger—as a kid—I know you was involved in youth baseball, you were involved in officiating, as far as umpire, you were involved with the community relations between the City of Pasco police and the community, involved in Affirmative Action in a number of areas—Jim, tell us a bit about yourself and when you first got involved. Pruitt: Well, I’ll tell ya, when I first came to Tri-Cities, I went out on a job, I never, never heard my name called Jim until I came here to the State of Washington. Everybody called me James; nobody in my family knew anything about Jim. My older brother was named Jimmy, and they called him Jim. But for James, I thought it was really odd. I’d tell people what my name is, and they’d say, well, we call you Jim. And I said, no, that’s my brother’s name. They didn’t understand that, I guess. I just got tired of trying to tell people that my name was James and not Jimmy. So this one white lady told me that my momma was crazy for naming my brother Jimmy and naming me Jim. And I told her if she said that again, I would slap her. [LAUGHTER] But I got involved, because when I was a kid growing up in Mississippi, there was no place for us to work in city council, anything that would help us to make any kind of progress in life. When I came to Los Angeles, I would go into the city council meetings when I got a chance. My brother-in-law would take me in. I wanted to see what was going on. So I said, if I ever got to a place where I could work and do something, I would. And when I came to Pasco, it was a small town. So I begin to see what was going on after I seen all the racism here. So that’s when I begin to do that. I begin to look out and see what was going on. That’s when put forth an effort to do something about this kind of thing. And marching and demonstrations that we put on and stuff like that, I was a leader in that, in the civil rights thing. I begin the Scouts, I believe it was in 1954. I’m the first black Boy Scout master in the Tri-City area to belong to the Blue Mountain Council. I worked with the young people. Out of the 22 kids I had, I lost two of them. The rest of them has progressed very good in life. It makes me feel very good about that. Working with the youth, Youth Council, and doing something to try to get them to understand where we had to go. Because the place was—I mean, it was bad. It was segregated. The kids couldn’t go in the swimming pool. We couldn’t go in the Memorial swimming pool and go in. They filled up a swimming pool out at the navy base out there to keep black folks from swimming in it. Those were the things that I seen that I worked on-- Skinner: Okay. So, Jim, you mentioned in 1948 that in the African American community there was a group that was formed to promote social change. What was the name of that organization? 1948, was it the—it wasn’t the East Pasco Improvement Association, was it? Or what was it? Pruitt: The East Pasco Improvement Association was 1949. Skinner: It was 1949. Pruitt: 1949 was when that began. I just gave you some of the names of that. Napolea Wilson, Shirley Shepard, Mr. Shepard, Luzell Johnson, Ray Henry, Mrs. James, Mrs. Barton, Gilbert Owens. There was many people that seen that this needed to take place. These were the organizers. Mrs. Merricks and her husband organized the Tri-City commission. Skinner: Human Relations Committee? Pruitt: Yeah. Skinner: Those two organizations, Jim, they were focusing on—when you say improvement, it is basically improving social conditions and economic conditions in the African American community. What were some of the projects or efforts that initially started that? Was it substandard housing, no housing, streets, water—what--? Pruitt: Substandard housing, streets, street lights, the dusty streets that we were having and these things, for better homes and for better jobs. They worked to get me the job for the city in 1960. I’m the first black man that worked for the City of Pasco. Skinner: Okay, Jim, I know that there was, again, I can say there’s a number of organizations that you’ve been involved with on the civil rights area, the human rights area. Jim, if I can recall that you were also City of Pasco, and I believe it was on police and community relations? Pruitt: Police and Community Relations department. Skinner: Okay, how did you get tied into that— Pruitt: [LAUGHTER] Skinner: --we’ll say, human relations program? Pruitt: Since I was working in the black movement, and I led quite a few demonstrations and marches on the streets in Pasco and in Kennewick and also Richland, they decided to grease the squeaking wheel. That’s why I got the job. I put in the application for it and everything, but there was over 200 applications. People had doctor’s degrees that they didn’t get it. What happened, in 1969—if you remember, ’68, they had a little riot over in Kurtzman Park. In 1969, they had the riot in front of the court house in the park there. And there was over 400 that was out in the park. And police went down and they had four warrants. They went down and arrested—got the four young men they was after for drugs. They—well, it wasn’t they, it was Lieutenant Butnam, we’ll just call his name out. He hit a couple of girls with his night stick, and he drew the crowd. And the kids came back the next day with rocks, rifles, shot guns—there was over 400 people out in that park, young people. There was only three white people in that park. Lee Brush— Skinner: A police officer? Pruitt: Yes, Sergeant Lee Brush. And Sam Hunt was one of the teachers, and Mr.—oh, he run Columbia Light Products down there on May Street. I can’t call his name right now. But anyway, I’ll get back to that. But anyway, those kids was out there fixing to get destroyed, because they’d come to destroy the police department. They’d torn over police cars and stuff up there in the street; they’d burned down the trees in front of the court house. And they had Reverend Allen—yeah, Reverend Allen, he didn’t come, but Reverend Vaughns, Wayne Jackson, Annette Jackson and myself. And everybody spoke to those young people. I got on the wishing well and I cried like a baby. Because I seen what was going to happen. If those kids had pulled out those guns out there and start shooting at them police, they were going to destroy them. And these was all white kids. And I got on the wishing well, and I promised them, if they would just think about it, because they were going to get destroyed—and go back home and think about it. I said, as long as there is blood in this body, I would never let this happen in this town again. I promised them that. And the kids dispersed. I went down and put in my application after that. They started sending out applications, and I went in and put in my application. That’s how I got that job. Skinner: Okay, okay. Jim, you had also mentioned that you organized a number of marches in the Tri-Cities area of Pasco, Kennewick and Richland. Can you tell us something about the first march that you were involved in in this area here and the reason why you were marching? Pruitt: Yes. For the same reason we’d been fighting all the time. For better housing, for better streets, for better lights and for better jobs, for better schools. Whittier School over there had rats and roaches and they had no place to put the food. The food was on the floor out there with roaches and everything else crawling trough it. The white people moved all their kids out of Whittier. There was four white kids going to Whittier School over there. Those were the things we demonstrated. We had no black policemen, we had no black lawyers in this town. We had nothing. And why not? Why not recruit some of these people? Because they were unwelcome. And that’s why I—we did that. Mozetta Orange was one of the young people that I worked with very rapidly. East Side Market was right in the black community. They wouldn’t hire a black person. Gene and Gerald would not hire a black person in their store. Before they would hire a black person in that store, they sold the store. And we got Roland Andrews the job there. And then Reverend Wilkins, he went to work there as a clerk. Those were the kind of things that we done. We had Slip’s Firestone down there in the black community, wouldn’t hire no black people. Finally, when his place went up for something down there, then we got the—we hired the black man. I guess he retired a couple of years ago. Skinner: Okay, I’m trying to think of the gentleman’s name here I believe that was working out at Slip’s Firestone. But I can’t think of it. [LAUGHTER] Pruitt: I can’t, either. It was Wild Bill. Mr. Wild Bill, everybody know his nephew. But I also, I worked—the first 18-wheeler driver was Henderson. Skinner: It was Henderson? Pruitt: Yes. Not Clyde, but— Skinner: Was it Gilbert? Gibson? Pruitt: Yeah, Gibson Henderson. Gibson Henderson, I got him a job out at that Chevron station. Way out there, driving an 18-wheeler. Avery Johnson. Not Avery—Tony—not Tony, but the other Avery. Skinner: Jim Avery, we call him Jeb, there’s a Henry, there’s a Larry. Pruitt: I guess it was Tony, Tony and-- Skinner: And he had a brother named Danny. Pruitt: No, Tony. Tony was the one. I got a job for PI. I talked to PI down there about them driving. I got him a job down there. Oh, it’s another young man, he killed his wife up in Spokane. He was a secretary when I was there with the police department. What was that boy’s name? Ah, god. It’s right on the end of my tongue, and I can’t call it. But he was driving. They were driving 18-wheelers. Those were the kind of things that I were working for. You know, to get these positions. That’s why we had the demonstrations. In Kennewick, we demonstrated over there because nobody could go to Kennewick. The first black man who had a house over there in 1961, he left and came over to Mr. Walker’s. It was Mr. Walker’s daughter’s husband. Mr. Walker’s daughter had the house over there. And she and her husband came over to visit him in Pasco; when they got back the house was burned down. Skinner: This was in 1961? Pruitt: 1961 in Kennewick. Yes. These was why we was demonstrating. Herb Jones and his family moved to Kennewick in 1965. They cut the tires on his car, broke the glass out of a brand new Ford he just had bought. These was the things we were marching for. Why not? Why not live in Kennewick, anywhere, if you wanted. We were citizens— Skinner: And this is America, you know what. Pruitt: And this is America. I look at it today, and people are saying we’re together. For over 400 years, we haven’t been together. And now they want to say, we are together. But we are not yet there. Skinner: James—and obviously the story that you told about being called James, which is your given name, opposed to Jim. Is there a story behind that right there? Is there—in the past, that the white community referred to African American men outside of their given name? Jimmy, if their name was James, and that was a negative connotation? Pruitt: Yes. And “boy.” They wanted to call you “boy,” “say, boy.” I didn’t allow nobody to call me “boy.” Because my name is James, and I feel like this, like I tell guys, I say, whatever—whoever you meet, and they give you their name, they tell you what my name is, that’s what they feel comfortable with you calling them. And that’s what they try to do. But yeah, they’d call you Bob for Robert, if your name was Robert. They wouldn’t call you by your full name. Skinner: Your given name. Pruitt: No, your given name, they had to put something else to it. Skinner: So this was out of, obviously this was— Pruitt: Lazy. Skinner: Is it lazy or out of respect, not having respect for the African American? Pruitt: That’s right, didn’t have no respect for them at all. None. None, and I tell you what. Believe it or not, I hit a guy in the mouth for calling me a nigger. Right here in Pasco, I hit him just like God had forgot him. And I wouldn’t’ve ever thought that that would happen. And they would do that as long as they felt like they could get away with it. And they’d call you “boy” as long as they felt like they could get away with it. Skinner: Oh, so in other words, you’re saying as long as you allowed it to occur, it would continue to occur. Pruitt: They would play with you out at Hanford out there. The man would come—the foreman sometime would come up and he would kick you with his knee. I’ve seen guys laugh and walk on off on me. Don’t take your feet off the ground towards me. Never. But they’d do that. And then finally a few of let them keep bumping you with your knee and then soon they start absolutely kicking. Oh, yes. Skinner: So it was just a general disregard for African Americans, if you allowed it to happen. Pruitt: Yes. [VIDEO CUTS] Skinner: Jim, let us revisit some of the, again, some of the firsts that you had mentioned now that—some of the firsts for blacks in the Tri-Cities area. Whether it was jobs, whether it was patronizing white businesses, night clubs and not have that Jim Crow stigmatism. Can you share for us some of the first things that you recognized as far as accomplishments or positions that blacks never had held before but now was holding, stores that blacks formerly couldn’t go in but now we could go in. Could you give me some of the firsts on that, Jim? Pruitt: Yeah, that’s what we were talking about a little while ago, when black people couldn’t go into the restaurants, job situation, they couldn’t work in the stores—the clothing stores or food stores or none of those places. I think, it was about 19—it was in the early ‘60s, before we really seen any changes to where people—and like I said, one of the things, east Pasco was a big grocery store there. We made them guys rich, and they wouldn’t hire a black person in the black community. Skinner: And you mentioned the name of that store was Gene and Jules? Pruitt: Gene and Gerald. Skinner: James, as I can recall, the Gene and the Jules, their last name were Wright? If I’m not mistaken, their last name was Wright? Pruitt: Gene Wright and Jules—I don’t know what Jules’ last name was. Moore: Was it Meyers? Pruitt: Might have been Meyers. Skinner: They also had not only the Gene and Jules over in east Pasco, but they also had a Gene and Jules on the west side of town. Pruitt: They sold Gene and Jules over there and built this one over here because they did not want to hire no black person. They wouldn’t hire no black person. Skinner: Okay, and on that relocation of the Gene and Jules from east Pasco to west Pasco, where was the Gene and Jules Store that they built to avoid hiring blacks, where was that located? Was that located on Court and Chase? Pruitt: Mm, that was on Court— Skinner: Which is, it’s 20th now, but it used to be Chase. Pruitt: That’s right. Chase. Skinner: Used to be Chase. Was it located around that area? Pruitt: Mm-hmm, yeah. Skinner: Jim, you also said it, the City of Pasco, that you were the first black that was employed by the City of Pasco? Pruitt: Yes. Skinner: What year was that? Pruitt: 1960. I was employed through East Pasco Improvement Association. They fought the city. Shirley Shepard and Mrs. Heidlebaugh, Mr. Heidlebaugh, Mrs. Merricks and all of those people, Kenny Moore, he was a councilman at that time—city councilman. And they called him the East Pasco Nigger Council. Skinner: Mm-hmm, tell us some more. Who was the mayor at that time, can you recall? Pruitt: Let’s see, who was the mayor? Ted—what was old Ted’s name? Oh, god. I can’t call the last name. But Ted was the mayor there in 1960. He was the mayor. He was a real racist. Real prejudiced. Skinner: Jim, you also said that you were the first black Boy Scout troupe leader in the Tri-City area, Pasco area or whatever. And you mentioned you had 22 scouts at that time. What else were you first in, Jim, in the Tri-Cities? Pruitt: I was the first black man to run a service station. 76 Union Station down on 4th Avenue at the Dodge place. I worked for Mr. Don Hammer. He went in, he was talking to his buddy in there, and he said, I got a man here needs a job. Because my son was going to be born in February and we couldn’t work on the dam because there was too much ice, and I needed the job. He was from Louisiana, and he said, man, black guys worked the station there all the time. He said, I’ll give you a job. He gave me a job working for him and I would run the station at night. There was people come to the station to get gas and I’d go out to serve them, and they’d ask me for Mr. Hammer or Bob. They was out to lunch or if they was going some place, I’d say, well, they’re not in right now. Can I help you? No. So one day—one evening—one night I was there, and this lady came in and I went out to fill her tank, because I know she come by to get it full. And she asked me where was the boss? And I say, he’s gone home. He might’ve not—he wasn’t going home that night, but he went and got him a sandwich and he said he was going to leave and he was going home. So I said, he may be going home, I don’t know. Well, where’s Robert? And I said he may be going home. I’m the only one here. I said, can I help you? No. So about that time, he went back up in the driveway. He got out and he says, what’s wrong? I said, I don’t know, that lady want to see you. So he goes over to her and he says, ma’am, can I help you? She says, yes, sir, she says, fill ‘er up. He said, James work here. He said, why couldn’t you fill her car up with gas? I said, I asked her what does she want and she asked for you. She didn’t tell me she wanted no gas. And he said, why didn’t you tell him? I didn’t want him putting gas in my car. He said, well, I tell you what, ma’am. He works here. And if he can’t put gas in your car, then we don’t need your trade. Skinner: So this female customer, because you were an African American refused to do business with you at a station that she does business with on a day-to-day basis. Pruitt: Yes. She would not let me fill that car up that day. So he said, if he can’t fill it up, I won’t fill it up. So she said, fill it up. And he went on the inside. So she asked me if I knew where she could get six black chickens. I said, no, I don’t. And I called Don and asked him. I said, Don. The lady ask me if you know where she could get six black chickens. He’s very squirrelly anyway. He says, well, let me see, but I don’t know, but if there’s any around I could sure get them for you. He say, why? Why you want six black chickens? She said, I want them for pall bearers. My cock is dead. [LAUGHTER] Those were the kind of things that that you get from them kind of people. A lot of people come in didn’t want me to serve them. Yes. Skinner: And is—that’s interesting and I know it was true, Jim, but it’s really pathetic that people were that shallow and that small to not want to give individuals the same extension of the hand that they would extend to other people. It’s really sad that we have individuals in this world this way that feel that they’re out here by themselves. Jim, is there any other firsts? Pruitt: Yes, when I was working for the city department, Buck Whistler was the supervisor there. He was so racist, he’d tell me one thing that the foreman—Herb Carr was the foreman—he would give me a job to do, and Buck would come on after he’d leave and tell me something else to do and then go tell him that I wasn’t doing what he told me to do, I was doing this. Buck Whistler was the supervisor. He didn’t want me on the job. Skinner: So he was doing everything he could to undermine you and get you run off. Pruitt: Until the last minute. He did it too many times. He did that one day, and Herb come to the shop. I was threading some pipe, I was cutting some water joints and threading them. And he says, why weren’t you threading them joints? I said, Buck told me to go out there and cut weeds and leave that alone. He said, Buck says you wasn’t doing what I told you to do. I said, I was there threading pipes, man. These two-foot pipes, I had to thread them at each end. I said, I was cutting pipe and threading them. He told me to go out there in the yard and cut them weeds out. He say, he did? I say, yeah, that’s what he done. So Buck came down, and I was so mad, I couldn’t wait. When he come down, I run at him. I was going to kick him up one side and down the other. So he took off. Skinner: So, again, well, then it seems to me that you were being set up. Pruitt: Yes, yes, but I had got tired of that. Skinner: Being set up, as far as African American men or women, it didn’t seem like it was— Pruitt: The thing was, John, we were trying to get unionized. He did not want a union, the city employees. So he laid three of us off in September. In 1961. It was two white boys and myself, Robert Noonan. Because we was organizing a union. Even though we did get it, oh yes, we got it. Skinner: So Jim you trying to tell me you was a union organizer also? Pruitt: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. There’s a lot of things, John, that I tried, you know? Because I always never had a chance when I were growing up. And I always wanted to do something to try to help young people. I’m still trying to do the same thing today. I live in Alaska, but I’m still doing it. [VIDEO CUTS] Skinner: Jim, let me also ask you about—you were also employed for the City of Pasco and you were in the capacity of a community relations officer between the Pasco Police Department— Pruitt: As a liaison. Skinner: A liaison—and the African American community. Could you tell me some parts of that job description? You’ve already shared with us on some, as far as the what they called riots or demonstration, Kurtzman Park, and also volunteer across for the Franklin County Courthouse. And you were there mediating that crowd. It sounds to me that you were able, was effective in your mediation to quell the crowd and you promised that you, as far as your involvement—tell us about that involvement with that liaison position. Pruitt: When I went to the police department, I went there with this in mind, to bring about a better relationship between the police department and the people in the city of Pasco. Not only in the African community, but also in the white community. That was my goal. I had ballgames set up between the people and the police department, softball team. And we also had a pigs-and-the-freaks game with the police to bring about better relationship with the police department. The police had been pretty rough on black people in Pasco. That was one of the things—I had an office set up there in the Matrix Building. And when people would be involved with the police in any way, form, they’d come to me, and I would investigate it. Police would be harassing certain people, oh yeah. That was quite a bit. That was my thing, to investigate it and find out and see what was happening and what was going on. I also got the guns out of the police department—I mean out of the cars, they were sitting up in the—they had them in the trunk. Because that’s intimidation. Intimidation to people when they see, and knowing that you got something to kill them with. [VIDEO CUTS] Skinner: Jim, following up a little bit more on that community relations job, liaison job you had for the City of Pasco, James, the question I want to ask of you now, what kind of cooperation did you get from the City of Pasco and Pasco Police Department? Were they committed of trying to establish better community relationship, or was it lip service? Pruitt: No, they did. They worked very diligent with me. The city manager and the chief of police. You had a few guys in there that regretted me. There was a joke told one evening and I cussed them out. [LAUGHTER] Skinner: Jim, did you say that, at that time was the city manager, did you mention Marv Wenniger? Pruitt: Yes. Skinner: Was the city manager? Pruitt: City manager. Skinner: And the mayor was? Pruitt: The mayor was Ed Hendler. Skinner: Ed Hendler at that time? Pruitt: Ed Hendler was the mayor at that time. Yeah, they’d work with me, and one thing the chief set up when we went in, he told the police that my job was not to investigate no cases for the police department. And he told me these words, he said, if any policeman come to you and ask you any questions about anybody out there that he should be working on investigating, I want to know about it. You see? And he will pay for it. And any time that a person would come to me with some type of action between them and the police, and I investigated it, if there were some wrongdoings in there, that policeman was reprimanded. There was some police reprimanded. I’d write them up. I’d write them up, and I would give one of the write-ups to the chief and one to the city manager. There were some police left the department because of that. Skinner: So they were committed to making the changes. And when you did the investigation and on your findings that there was some activities that was inappropriate, they dealt with it effectively. Pruitt: Yes. And Al Tebaldi thanked me many times for opening doors to him that has not been opened to the police chief by inviting him into east Pasco and to different organizations and into the night spots and getting to know people and setting up the ballgames and stuff where we could have some interaction with each other. That was good. He was for all of that. Skinner: And you say that at this time the chief of police of the Pasco Police was Al Tebaldi? Pruitt: Al Tebaldi. Yes. And he worked with me on that very, very well. I appreciated that. Skinner: Jim, again, you’re a person that’s multi-faceted, like I say, and involved in an incredible number of different things in the community. You also mentioned that you were involved, not only with organizing, but you also were involved with the Ironworkers and apprenticeship programs. In your involvement with the apprenticeship program, I assume—or let me ask you, were you involved in minority recruitment? Raising that window for blacks to have opportunity in building and construction trades? Pruitt: Yes, that was a part of my job. Skinner: Tell me, Jim, some of the encounters that you had, some of your success rates of recruiting black young men and/or women into the program. Tell us something about that. Pruitt: Well, I’ll tell you, it’s very understandable that young people, young black men, didn’t know anything about the four crafts that black men could not participate in. It was electricians, the pipefitters, sheet metal and ironworkers. Those were four crafts that the judge recommended that no other person [UNKNOWN] could be hired except blacks for five years. We had to graduate 625 black men and women through these four locals. Skinner: Well, this was through Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action, was it? Pruitt: Yes, Affirmative Action. Skinner: Blacks, African American, were not involved in the building and construction crafts in those four crafts. Pruitt: No, that’s right. Skinner: The reasons why they were not involved, was it closed to the father-and-son type of— Pruitt: Yes. Skinner: Because I can recall myself, as I was graduating from high school, I had no knowledge of building and construction apprenticeship programs such as Electricians’ and stuff like that. So you saying that, by mandate, you had to recruit as well as graduate a number of African American men or women in a specific period of time. Pruitt: Both, yes. Both. Both, men and women. Skinner: Jim, you also said that recently you ran across some of the young men that you were involved in recruiting in the Ironworkers’ and it sounded like they were thanking you for reaching out and showing them the way. Jim, how does that make you feel as far as that accomplishment and being able to reach down, reach back and provide the direction? Pruitt: Well, it makes you feel very good, John, because these guys did not understand about these different crafts. And it makes a lot of difference when you are put out in a position and you’ve never been there before. And you’re out there with all the white guys, they’re going about their business, because their dad has sat around the dinner table and talked about these things. But my daddy wasn’t able to do that. So these young men’s fathers didn’t know anything about the Ironworkers’, the Electricians’, the Pipefitters’. So we had to have a counsel. I was—what’s it called, a counsel. I worked with these guys, I recruited them, and I went on the job to see how they would function, what they needed, what their weak places was, whether they needed help. They went to school five nights a week, two hours, to learn this trade. They had to do this. And if they didn’t, then they were thrown out and somebody else was recruited. Skinner: Jim, let me ask you this, in your area of being a counselor of apprenticeship programs, was the success rates where you thought they should be? Were they good? Were they low? Did we have a good completion rate of African Americans in the apprenticeship program? Pruitt: I’d have to say 87%. Skinner: That’s successfully completed the program? Pruitt: It was good. Charlene Bell was one of my ironworkers. Her brother, Alfred Bell, was one of them. And her little brother got killed up there. Skinner: John? Pruitt: John? Yes. There was Ron Howard coming under that, and Tony Troy. You know Tony? Faye’s son? Skinner: Yes, yes. Pruitt: He’s an ironworker now. He’s getting ready to retire. Some of the guys that I had worked with that I had to get in in the morning and call them if they didn’t go to work. Skinner: You had to jumpstart them, Jim? Pruitt: I had to jumpstart ‘em. I’d go and I always kept my little piece under my arm, because the guys were rough. And they’d be out all hours of the night and didn’t want to go to work the next morning. And they’d get up and go, I’ll shoot you if you come in here, I’ll do this, I’ll cut your head off. And I’d go in there, well, I’m going to shoot you back. I said, you going to go to work this morning. The man need you. If he hadn’t need you, he wouldn’t have hired you. You’re going to work. I’d make them go to work. Every day. And seeing that they go to school. Every night, I was at that school. I checked them out. Every night, brother, I was out there. If there was any problem, the teacher, he reported it. He reported it to me. And I would talk to these fellas. I went on the job to see how they were progressing. I talked to the foreman whom he worked with, these guys, the journeyman. I had some guys through 19 months were journeymen. So these are the kinds of things that we worked for. We had ladies that were ironworkers. Juanita was a good ironworker. She was just one here from Pasco. They was very good. They was very good. I met some guys last summer in the park, in the shop that’s over on 23rd up there, in June. They rushed me and was hugging me and going on. Please don’t do that, people be thinking we’re sisters. They were getting ready for retire, and they were thanking me for what I had done for them, to give them a chance in life and have something to retire. They got good retirements from these jobs. It make me feel very good, very good, I have helped somebody. Skinner: Good. Jim, you know, on opening some of these doors, and knocking some of these barriers down—it wasn’t done voluntarily, Jim. Certain action, whether it was civil disobedience at the time, because in the majority community, the majority community just wasn’t listening. Sitting down to the round table might have worked for certain groups, but in the black community, we have sat down to the round table any hundreds of thousands of times and we still did not get any effective change. What do you think are some of the causes that moved, for some of the social change, to break down the barriers, to get the apprenticeship program, we’re talking about college education, where we’ve always had African American men and women graduating and going to college, but through Affirmative Action, we started seeing more folks, blacks, getting involved in apprenticeship programs, going to college and graduating college. But what I’m saying is, it didn’t happen by accident; it happened because of individuals out there on the line and were calling for social change. Do you agree on that? Or not? Pruitt: Yes. I think a lot of us—our young people was misled. I worked in OM over there a lot with young people. Three years ago, I was in Walla Walla. I had breakfast over at the Black Angus. There was two young ladies walked up, they almost looked like twins, and grabbed me, I thought they were trying to get my money, so I started scuffling with them. And they said, Mr. Pruitt, you don’t know us? And I said, no, I don’t, I’m sorry. And they said, do you remember OM? And I said, yes, I do. And I looked— Moore: Operation Motivation? Pruitt: Yes, Operation Motivation. And she said, I want to thank you and Trooper Kennedy for helping us to turn our lives around. She says, I’m a doctor, and the other one was a teacher. Skinner: ‘Kay. Pruitt: And—I’m sorry. [emotional] But those kind of things make you feel good. [camera man]: We can stop it. [VIDEO CUTS] Pruitt: --and on a Saturday hit a little bit of blues. That’s about it. Sunday, all day, you would hear all gospel. And the sheriff would ride around the church, is everything all right, boy? See if everything all right. So you’d be ready to go to work Monday morning. As soon as Dr. King come along and said, let’s get up and do something. We’re going backward, not moving forward. What did they do? They started bombing the black churches and killing black folks, because they begin to move out. The ministers should tell our young people, whatever your talent is, use it. I’ve seen Milton Norwood’s little daughter blowing trumpet in the church up there. Now, she done went through four years of schooling to learn how to blow, and the minister telling her to blow for God. Don’t get out there in the streets and blow no horn. Now who going to pay her salary? BB King, I talked to him. He and I were 80 miles apart. I said, BB, supposing we had still been in Mississippi? He said, we’d be down there smelling behind them mules. But I’m able to do something for my kids and my grandkids. He’s got 29 grandkids. He got a club set up in Hollywood, he’s got one in Memphis, he just set up one in New York. To him, that’s a job. But to black folks, because the white folks said, if you sing the blues, you going to hell, we couldn’t swim on Sundays, we couldn’t play baseball on Sundays. A lot black folks wouldn’t cook on Sundays because they done told them it’s a sin. And we still living under that old tradition. And this is what I’m telling you young people: get out from under that. Don’t believe that kind of stuff, because all it is, they taking the Bible and keeping you on the slave. Get up. And whatever is the pleasure in your life and other people enjoy, do it. That’s what I do today. Whatever people in Georgia are doing. People call me on the phone and ask me sometime to sing a couple verses of a song in New York—that’s the truth—or Detroit or some place. I sing. Why? Because I may not have that chance again. I don’t care if it’s the blues. I sung the blues plowing the mule—I learned how to plow the mule singing the blues. And the blues ain’t nothing but—the preacher says the blues is singing for the devil. My little blind friend up there used to play at the Black Angus here. He was playing up there in Anchorage. He offered the church to play for them. They didn’t have a keyboard player, and he play in the club. That’s his living. You know they wouldn’t let him play in that church? Because he’s playing for the devil and you can’t play for the devil and to God. And then turn around saying, you got to earn your living by the sweat of your brow. If Satan ain’t sweating I don’t know what it is. I can’t understand why the ministers are still going through these things. It’s a shame and holding the young people back. This is one of the reasons, John, that we can’t get nowhere, is because they got the kids’ minds poisoned. They not teaching them nothing. And we have to teach them that they’re number one in their life and whatever is available to them that they want to do—go out and be a policeman, go out and be a lawyer, be a doctor, be a city councilman, be the mayor—whatever you want to be. But you don’t ever hear them say that. You don’t hear them say nothing about the people that have paved the way for us along the way. Reverend Allen has never contributed nothing to this community. Never. And he told me, Juneteenth day down there, he had a $4 million project in Portland. I said, Reverend Allen, what about here? You live here. Well, Reverend Allen say, it’s in Portland. He ain’t never contributed nothing. And people tell me, well, it’s because of the way his family is. I’m a man. Don’t let nobody tell you what you can and cannot do as long as you right. He’s the boss of the house. How his wife going to tell him he can’t be involved in nothing? He come to one council meeting. But they ain’t telling young people nothing. You see? I tell them, you number one in your life. Your heart is the church. Your body is your temple. Whatever you need, you look within yourself. The inner strength, the god within you is the one that give you direction. See, that house over there is a house of fellowship. That’s where people go and communicate and swap conversations with each other. But this is the house of God. This is the temple, is here, your body. And when they start telling young people this and whatever—use it. Whatever your talent is, use it. Love, you have to find it within yourself first. When you find that, you can go anywhere in the world and find it. I have no problem nowhere I go. Peace—people say, I’m going out here and find me some peace and happiness. It starts with you. Any change you want made in life, brother, you have to start with you. Because it’s not going to change if you don’t put forth an effort. And you can sit here and pray until doomsday. Until you get up and do what you’re supposed to do, you ain’t going to get nothing. See, and people is talking about, if you got the faith of a mustard seed, the Bible said, if you got as much faith as a mustard seed, cut into four parts, one little square, you can move mountains. Now, the preachers don’t explain that. You’ve heard that before, ain’t you? Skinner: Yes, I have. Pruitt: But now you know what he was talking about? You know what kind of faith he was talking about? You see these big machines they built, they move the mountains. See, that’s what he was talking about. If you got as much faith, you can build these kind of things. They blow a hole in the mountain and take them big Eucs and stuff and run it in and get it out. The way they tell you that, if you have enough faith you can stand and look and pray at that mountain so long it’ll move out of your way. If there’s something in your way that—no, you’ve got to be able to move it. You got to be able. Skinner: So, Jim, you’re saying that before the black community can help itself, help ourselves, we’ve got to get up and take some steps. Pruitt: That’s right. We got to find ourselves. We got to find ourselves, and that’s something we have not done. We’re still dependent on somebody else. And you all know, when you talk to people that are supposed to be Christians, they’ll tell you something that’s wild and is a whole lot different from what it is in the Book. It is. And the Book has been translated 15 times. It has been translated. And you look in the Bible, now they got pictures in the Bible. See how many black people in the Bible. See how many’s in there. And I’m very angry with our ministers. Not that I’m—but you try to tell them, and they all, you wrong. Where you get your philosophy from? But I tell y’all something, I had an experience in 1966. I was driving from here to Bellingham. I was working on Whidbey Island, I was building some barracks out on the navy base. I was driving along one evening when something called my name. I was singing, “kindly take this message to the other side.” Something called my name at the double bridges. And you ever go into Canada, when you get between—before you get to Mount Vernon, there’s two double bridges there. And just as I crossed that bridge, something called my name three times, I’m driving. Said, James, James, James. It said, live your life that others may see the life you live. Because your life may be the only Bible that they will ever read. And it scared me so bad, man, I didn’t know what to do. I put on my brakes and I was sweating like mad. And I don’t know what in the daylights said that. 1986, I was working up on Mount McKinley. I built bridges out there for Samson & Sons. We stayed out there at the camp. So in the evening, I’d usually get in my truck after I’d worked 12, 14 hours a day, sometime 18. And I’d go out there, the sun didn’t go down until 12, 12:30. I’d get in my truck and go out there, and sit out there and look at all the animals on the side of the mountain, the bears and the goats and the moose and everything, doing they thing out there. But I sat there one evening, something call my name the same way, man. And I mean it just shocked me again. I’m sitting there and it scared me. And I asked a question when it said that three times to me. I said, why me? It said, because you’re you. That time there was some little—there were some ducks crossing the road, had some little bitty baby ducks. And all them ducks was in a little hook following they mom. And one started off, and she turned around and pecked him. And he got back in. The Spirit said something to me. If that duck can train his duckies, looking at the bears—if the bear can train his little cubbies, if the goats can train their little lambs, the cows can train their calf, why can’t we, our people, our children? Why? You know those things that—it’s because—I don’t know. I don’t know why. But these kind of things—I don’t know why they come to me, but it did. And I think about it. And I talk to young people about these things. I still work, brother. I’m still going to the schools. I’m still going to young people’s organizations and talk to them. Skinner: Jim, you’ve always been active with the youth in the community. As I said earlier, as I was growing up, I know that you were involved in and organized baseball. And I know, James Junior and I were also playing ball together. And you’d take us to ball games—at that time, I believe it was the Tri-City Braves. Pruitt: I bought a $50 Cadillac from his Daddy. [LAUGHTER] And I went everywhere, to Portland, Seattle. [LAUGHTER] Moore: We’ve got another one down there, too. Pruitt: Do you? Moore: We’ve got another one. Pruitt: For $50? Moore: A Cadillac, yeah. Pruitt: I want it! [LAUGHTER] Skinner: Jim, again, you have a wealth of information about folks in the community, about the signs of the times, where we were, where we came from, and we measure it in different ways. Right now, Jim, I suspect, I guess you’re retired here, right now. Pruitt: Yes, I retired in ’89. Skinner: Jim, I know that you were—you’ve done a multitude of things. I know you’ve been a contractor— Pruitt: [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes. Skinner: And you’ve been a sports official. Pruitt: Yup. Skinner: And I guess when I interviewed you, you’re saying, I just had that intestinal fortitude to want to get up and want to do better for myself and see my people do better. Pruitt: Yeah, especially young people. I want young people to have the opportunities I didn’t have. I want them to have that. Skinner: Jim, in that same line is, where do we go from here? Do you think that African Americans acclimating more into the mainstream society, do we have a uphill battle from what you can see in the trends out here now? Pruitt: Yes, we still have an uphill battle. Because people is not yet grasped what is happening. They still, some of us still living back in the ‘20s and the ‘30s. You’ve got to leave that. If you don’t move with time, time will leave you standing still. We have a lot of people like that. They don’t believe in what—I mean, you look at the music today. You look at the gospel, contemporary. Young people—[COUGHING] excuse me—they don’t want to go back and sing the old songs that we sang. [singing] Lord, I wanna be ready. Lord, I’m getting ready. I’m going to meet my God. You see, when young people come to the world, black people, they start teaching you to die. You going. How to get to heaven. And this is my speech. How you going to heaven if you haven’t did nothing here? We have got to learn to live here first. And this is what we are not doing. They’re not teaching us how to live here together, John, they’re teaching us how to get to heaven. But what we going to do here first? And a lot of people here, you can talk to them about that, child, I know I’m on my way to heaven, I’m going. Look, this is your heaven and hell right here on earth, son. When you leave here, your spirit will be left, but your body’s going back to the dust. That spirit will be in the body of some other human, not yours. You’ve finished here on earth and when you are done—ain’t nobody been back to tell you how it is over there, is that old folks’ comment. So that’s why he said, don’t put off today for tomorrow for what you can do today. Because there is no tomorrow. It’s either today or yesterday. Skinner: Jim, you know, again, in a black community, uphill struggle from where we may have been 50 years ago to now, young people’s better access to education—quality education, maybe a little finer—I’m not going to say finer minds, but now they have some credentials because of their college education. Do you think that the young people and seeing more with a college education, are they going to be able to benefit and help blacks move vertically? Progressively vertical enough, vertical movement. Do you think because of more blacks are being educated that they’re going to be able to reach out and be more salvation because of their education? Pruitt: I hope so. I hope so. I hope they’re not selfish. But a lot of us are. And I hope—they should reach back. And that’s what I always try to do. If I get three steps up on the ladder, I like to have someone on the second behind me. See, as we step up the ladder, we should always be able to look back and bring somebody else along with us. And I hope—and that’s what I tell young people each day that I talk to them. Don’t forget where you came from. Don’t forget your sister, your brother, your African American. Don’t forget where you come from. Always try to help those that need help. I hope it brings about a change. Skinner: Jim, so you’re saying then, don’t forget from whence you came. Pruitt: That’s right. Skinner: And speaking of selfishness, the selfishness, you’re hoping that by having access to education, that we’ll be able to look at things conceptually and not keep starting back off at square one. That we can be able to move forward with the knowledge and progressively move up vertically. Pruitt: Right. And I think—what I was saying, if our ministries, too, in the community. Because they have the crowd, they have the majority of the people. They have a chance to help young people more than what they do instead of holding them back. But they tell them what you can and what you cannot do. That’s not right. And I think if we could get them to understand, they’re not helping the young people in the way they’re teaching them. They’re not teaching them how to live here on earth and how to get out and do things and help that person that needs help that’s a little bit less fortunate than they are. They ain’t teaching them that. You don’t ever hear that. All they talk about is what Paul done and what John done and all of these people back—that’s fine. But bring in some of these people. You never hear anything about Dr. Martin Luther King. You never hear them say anything about Randolph Philips. You never hear George Washington Carver, Booker T. Washington. You never hear them say anything about that. You never hear them say anything about Jackie Robinson; you never hear them say anything about Muhammad Ali. And look at most of the things that have changed in the last 70 years since I’ve been living. Who has changed it? Black folks. Muhammad Ali, what did he do? He refused to go to service, didn’t he? Skinner: He was a conscientious objector. Pruitt: Yes. What did he do? Didn’t he change the way we go into the service now? Did he change that? Skinner: Yeah, he was a modifier on a number of things. Pruitt: Didn’t Dr. King change the whole world? You ain’t never seen people demonstrating and marching and—after Dr. King, all of this come about. Booker T. Washington. George Washington Carver. Granville T. Woods. Moore: Thurgood Marshall. Pruitt: Thurgood Marshall. Then you ask the average black person right now, who invented the first telephone, who will they tell you? Who invented the first telephone? Skinner: They’ll say Alexander Graham Bell. [LAUGHTER] Pruitt: It wasn’t. Granville T. Woods was the first man who invented—he sold out to Bell. The first cowboy. The first cowboy hat was worn—who wore it? A black man. They taken that from him. The horseshoes, the cowboy boots. Black man. Pencil sharpener, the piano. The grease device you grease your car with. All those things. The two-cylinder gasoline, the refrigerator, the fan up there. You know why he invented that? The clock was a—all of these things. You ask black people, they don’t know anything about this. But the black man got tired of fanning all the time. They had to fan boss. And he invented that. He got tired of working from can to can’t. From the time I can see until the time I can’t, you had to work. He invented the clock. These things, we don’t teach our kids none of this stuff. And when I tell young people, I’m telling you this because I don’t want you to have to go through what I went through. And I know you guys are young men, you haven’t through what I gone through from Mississippi and Louisiana and all those places where I’ve lived. But try to tell them they’re the best, because if you don’t, they want to slip you but right back in the same place you was in the ‘20s. And if you don’t tell them how you came through and what life is about so far as you can, then it’ll be easy for them to slip back in there. Because they don’t say anything about it in the church. Now, see, white people do. That’s why they churches and their businesses—they don’t care about you being in there. Because they can’t talk about it when you’re involved. When I went to the police department, it made a great difference, a great change. Because I was sitting up in every meeting, and when something come down, brother, I was right there. And they couldn’t get in there and talk about us and call us names and different kind of stuff, because I was there. And that’s why I tell young people, get involved. As long as you’re on the outside, you don’t know what’s going on in the inside. But when I was on the inside—hey. A lot of people that I had to—they knew what was going on. Yeah. But they don’t want you there whupping his mom and his daughter and his sister. And he ain’t going to be whupping yours. But as long as he ain’t got nobody in there to protect that, he going to dog ‘em. Yeah. Skinner: Jim, again, you have a lot of interesting information that we would love to glean. We don’t have a lot of time, because I know you’re getting ready to go back to Alaska tomorrow morning. But Jim, before we end this interview—and like I said, it’s been good. Jim, we want to thank you. There’s no question about it, we definitely want to thank you because you’ve definitely helped us out. But, Jim, I want to go back and I want to touch on one thing. Jim, and I know that you have been musically inclined, been involved in entertainment, singing, choirs, night club groups and stuff like that. Tell me—tell us a little bit about where you got—you also mentioned that you learned to sing the blues behind a plow line and a mule. Tell us something about how you— Pruitt: Well, I’ll tell you, I started plowing when I was five years old. And all my folks sing. I started singing plowing that mule. I listened to the rhythm of the mule’s harness. The hames would be—you know what the hames is? Them things that go around his neck on the collar. The traces—the traces are the chains that run down to the plow. And the mule would walk, and he had more rhythm than the drum and his ears would flop just like—and he was stepping to that. And I learned to sing from that. And I remember the first blues song that I learned to sing, it was Louise. And I started singing that song one evening. I’ma sing just a little bit of it for you. And the guys across the field over there—that’s why we didn’t have no telephone, because they could holler so loud. I was singing [singing] Louise, Louise. You the sweetest girl I know. Oh, Louise. You’re the sweetest girl I know. Well, you made me walk from Chicago down to the Gulf of Mexico. And somebody over there, the next cut over there would holler, say, hey, James, say, sing that one more time. [LAUGHTER] And I would sing it again. But my dad didn’t know no better, he said, boy, you’re going to hell, singing the blues. [LAUGHTER] But I did. I learned—I remember the first gospel song that I learned to sing. I sang that in church when I was five years old. “There’s no room at the hotel.” And I still know every word of that song today. I’m going to sing a little bit of that for you. [singing] There’s no room, no room at the hotel. There’s no room, no room at the hotel. When the time fully come for my savior to be born, they said, I’ve no room, no room at the hotel. They said, bell boys, the porters and the waitress, high maids and cooks, will be a witness in judgment because they saw them overlooked. Well, they heard the manager say, when he turned poor Mary away, he said, there’s no room, no room at the hotel. [APPLAUSE] Skinner: That was the first that you sang, five years old. Pruitt: That was the first. And I sang that up in the night club in Anchorage, Alaska. And people just, they were talking about they wanted to hear that. Skinner: Well, Jim, as I’ve said, you’ve been involved in church choirs, different quartets, little groups around over the years. What was the first group that you performed with here locally in the Tri-Cities? Do you know the name of the group? Can you remember? Pruitt: The Christian Travelers. Skinner: The Christian Travelers? Pruitt: The Christian Travelers, 1949. Skinner: 1949? Who was on— Pruitt: John Tharps, we called Peewee, was a tenor stringer. Joe Straws was the first lead singer. And Otis Denham. Skinner: Who now? Pruitt: Otis Denham. Skinner: Denham? Pruitt: Yeah, he lives in Spokane now. He’s 87 years old. He’s kind of feeble—my foster brother. I’m going up to see him probably before I leave. I gotta go up—I told him—he called me this evening. I said, well, I’m going to put it off. I was going to leave tomorrow, but I’m going to wait and go Sunday, because I don’t have to catch the plane until Monday night. Skinner: Oh, okay, okay. Pruitt: So I’m going to go up and see him. Otis Denham, he was the baritone singer. Me, I was the bass singer. They made me sing bass. I never sang bass before. Because I used to sing seven different voices. But since I trained my voice to sing down, I can’t go—I can go, [singing] oh—I can go down, but I can’t go up to the high no more. But Cassalee Turner was the first tenor. Peewee was the second tenor. Otis Denham was the baritone, and I were the bass. But I got something I’m taking up to him is one of the old recordings that we had back in the ‘50s. Moore: You have a recording? Pruitt: Huh? Moore: You have a recording still? Pruitt: Yeah. Moore: Oh, okay. Hmm. Pruitt: Yup. Skinner: Well, you know, that’s interesting, also, Jim, because not only is that keepsake information for you, I know our group is interested in materials such as that. Having access or copies or whatever, because we feel it’s so important for us to document and put contributions that African Americans have made and things they’ve been involved with. We’re trying to gather this information. So that’s why it perked our interested that you have a copy. Pruitt: Yeah, I think in 1952, we broadcast some Sunday mornings out of Pasco. Skinner: Do you remember what station it was? Pruitt: Yeah, Pasco. Skinner: I know. Was there any call letters at that time? Pruitt: Um. Moore: It was KEPR, wasn’t it? That’s the only thing— Pruitt: Yeah, KEPR. Skinner: Was it? In ’52? Moore: Mm-hmm, I was there. Pruitt: Yeah. Skinner: Well, I know there was— Pruitt: We broadcast every Sunday morning for 30 minutes. Skinner: Or was it K-I-M-A? K-I-M-A, being—I’m just trying to think because before we had the KEPR radio station here or television station, the broadcast was coming out of the city of Yakima. Pruitt: No. [VIDEO CUTS] [camera man]: Go ahead. Skinner: Jim, again, you shared with us a number of things, again, on the last we were talking about your music involvement, being involved in some local choirs and entertainment in general. And I know that you’ve been involved in any number of groups, and entertained any number of businesses and night clubs around the Tri-City and around the country and stuff like that. Can you tell me the second group that you got in—became involved in as far as music? Pruitt: Yes, the Heavenly Harps, here in Pasco. That was the second group. And then I went down in Los Angeles and I was with the Rainbow Gospel Singers there for a while. And also in Las Vegas, the Clouds of Joy. I was with the Clouds of Joy in Las Vegas. We set up Local Number 11 down there with Odessa Perkins, was with the Ward Singers at one time. Ward’s was—Ward Singers were a professional group. I was with that group for a while. Skinner: Well, Jim, again, as I’ve said that you— Pruitt: But I would like to say this, John. When I first started singing, I remember, here—the first time I went to blues, I never sang blues in the club before until 1969. I was drawing $42 a week. Ed Jackson came to me and asked me if I would want to sing. I said, man, I don’t sing the blues; I sing gospel. But I was drawing $42 a week. He said, I’ll pay you $130 if you will sing, and I’ll give you the band. You take the band and you go ahead. I’ll pay you. It was easy $130 a week if you take that, if you sing and help keep the young people out of here. Because you know everybody, and keep them out of the club. And I went and talked to my wife. She said, if I were you, I wouldn’t sing. I don’t know. Because people are going to say you ain’t nothing if you go and sing, because you’ve been singing gospel. I said, baby, I said, I got bills to pay, I got my kids to feed. I said, nah, you know? What am I going to do? $42 a week ain’t very much. I said, the man offered me that and I can still draw my unemployment and I’d make enough to where we can eat and pay our light bill and everything until spring come, maybe my jobs’ll come back. She said, no, I don’t think I would do that. I said, well, sweetheart, this is one time I’m going to have to overrule you. I’m going to take this. And I went down and started to sing. I held no office in the church. I still went to church, but you know, nobody ever said anything to me about it. But they didn’t agree with me singing down in that club. But the members, the choir members of each church were paying $2.50 a night to come to Jack’s Pit and Grill to hear me sing. And we had more fun—because to me, it was a job. I wasn’t there women-chasing and getting drunk and all that. I was trying to make some money. That’s what I done. People who got mad at me because they said I wasn’t a Christian. But I am a Christian. And a lot of people don’t know what a Christian is. You ask most people, say, what is a Christian? A Christian is Christ-like. A Christian is not a murderer; they don’t harm people, they don’t destroy. I’m not a peace-breaker; I’m a peacemaker. And anywhere you go, you will find that within me. Anywhere I go in Anchorage, Alaska, they call me Mr. Pruitt. In Fairbanks, they call me King James. [LAUGHTER] They do. And I ask the young people, why y’all call me Mr. Pruitt? You think I’m getting old? But I get that kind of respect. I go to the Hilton, I go to the band, to the Sheraton, to the—any of those places I go. And if I go in there, I bet you I can go in there and stay in there for three minutes and my table’s going to be full of people. I don’t go and tell people, you ought to go do this, and you oughtta go—I tell how life has been with me. And what’s on the inside of me. And people enjoy that. This is what I’m saying, the minister’s afraid to go out in the community and go into these places. See, if you were such a strong person, why should you be afraid to go in? I don’t want to go to where young people live. I’m where young people are. Young people keep you hopping. They keep your mind—you don’t have time to think about them aches and pains and them hurts. But when you sit around with them old folks, child, say, my old knee hurting me so bad and my old hip hurting me so bad, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I don’t want to hear that. My next birthday, I’ll be 78 years old. I get up and I go, I say, I got a little combo. I sing two nights a week. I sing gospel in the club. Black folks told me, you don’t sing gospel in the clubs. You don’t sing that. Mahalia Jackson turned out a million dollar contract. She didn’t sing in no club. Why not? That’s where you’re supposed to sing. That’s where the preacher’s supposed to go. He said, go into the hedges and highways. And I go in there, old woman 89 years old, I went in the VFW and she said, Mr. Pruitt, do you sing gospel? I said, yes, ma’am. She said, will you sing some for me, please, sir? I did “Just A Closer Walk with Thee,” wasn’t a dry eye in the house when I got through. [LAUGHTER] There wasn’t any white people. But I mean, this is what it’s about and what I’m doing. I’m not going in there to get drunk. Because drinking is something I ain’t never cared about. Now, I take a drink every now and again, but I ain’t never cared about no drinking and stuff. But I am concerned about people. Young people, man, I’d do anything in the world to help them. And I try—all my grandkids, I try to talk to them, try to show them the way and help them to understand. But you know, if you don’t have some backing sometimes, it’s hard. Skinner: Yes, it is. Pruitt: And like I said, you can go to church and everything else, but if you ain’t got some backings, you don’t learn. And I’m still—the preachers, used to be the preachers and teachers used to be the outstanding people in the community. The preachers sold out. They want some money. Bring the tithe. And they don’t think about what the young people going to do. Skinner: Mm-hmm, yup. Pruitt: Just do this today. And I wish that they would wake up and start doing something and taking the bridle off of young people and tell them to go. You know, whatever your talent is, go out there and do it. As long as you ain’t going out there and killing and robbing and stealing and doing things that’s not good for your life. But whatever your talent is, go out there and do it. Skinner: Jim, I want to say this right here. The African American for an Academic Society History and Recognition Committee truly thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule and interviewing with us. And I want to say it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Pruitt: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Skinner: Yes, and we glad to have you. Jim, is there anything else you want to add at this time to the interview? If you want to ad lib or—just feel comfortable saying— Pruitt: Well, I would like to say that it’s a blessing that you guys are doing this, because this has never been done before. I think a lot of people actually are afraid to come forward and say something. But me, I’m like Paul. Silver and gold have in number such as I have, I give of thee. So I’m glad to see you doing this. And I walked in and saw Lynn down in the park, I was surprised. It did me good to see you down there. And the few people on the chart there that I named, I saw that he was interested in that, and that’s good. That’s beautiful. I wish you could get some more young people involved in that, in this, to— Skinner: Well, we’re trying now, Jim. That’s the whole reason behind this. We want to be able to reduce to paper, video, the contribution that African Americans have made, and with the hope that we can get the black community more involved in a number of programs and as you say, being on the inside. Again, Triple-A-S as far as an organization is invested in the young people. We’re just basically trying to get the information together and trying to get the information out. So we’re glad we’re able to do it and we’re hoping that when we do put the finished product together, that the community folks or folks in the community or folks that may see this exhibit would be appreciative that someone took the time to tell the story that my family or part of my family or someone I know came this way in the Tri-Cities. Pruitt: Well, I’d like to say something else. Kurtzman Park over there, the black men that put that park together that was given to us. Every tree that was sent out over there, these hands dug them up. Me and one white boy, Roy Hagerton. Skinner: What was his name again? Pruitt: Hagerton. We went out to Job’s and we went out there and worked four hours on a Saturday morning, and he gave us those trees. While we would go in there, other men was digging the trenches for the waterlines. Some of the guy were out at the old navy base up there digging up the pipes that had been given to us, and St. John’s Trucking was hauling them over to Kurtzman Park, free. Skinner: Did George Kurtzman donate this land, was it to the City of Pasco, or— Pruitt: Old Man Kurtzman? Skinner: Or was it to— Pruitt: He dedicated that to the park. Yeah, he dedicated that to us. Skinner: So the initial work that went into what we now know as Kurtzman Park, but I remember it first as Candy Cane Park. Pruitt: It ain’t never had been Candy Cane. Skinner: It never had? Pruitt: Never been. It’s always been Kurtzman. Skinner: Well, you know, for some reason, I’m wondering why I’m getting the Candy Cane. Pruitt: That’s Kurtzman. Skinner: I know it’s Kurtzman Park, but I remember when they—now, we look at the park as the physical size it is now. When it was initially put in there, they had a merry-go-round, a monkey bars, an elephant slide there, and if I’m not mistaken it says Candy Cane Park, but maybe I’m wrong. Pruitt: Yup. Skinner: Okay. Pruitt: Kurtzman. Skinner: It was right across the street—we had California Street and Wehe Street came together. Pruitt: That’s right. Skinner: So this is just interesting, because I do know it was a community involvement— Pruitt: Project. Skinner: --project, as far as the initial work as far as stabilizing the area and stuff like that. Pruitt: And I will say this, I don’t think—two people in this, Joe Jackson and Webster Jackson, never got out in the ditches with us. I never seen them out there. And he’s the guy, Webster—I am the cause of Webster Jackson having the job he got today. Skinner: For the City of Pasco? Pruitt: Yes, sir. Webster—Oweda, you can ask Oweda. She’ll tell you. I begged her to take the job she can down there. Skinner: Was that Weda Ran? Pruitt: Yes. Webster Jackson, Marv Wenniger gave me the authority to set up all—from the chief of police, the sergeants or whoever, that’s why I said they worked with me on that. I set up the screening process for everything. When they come down to the three people to take over Urban Renewal, it was Wayne Jackson, Herbert Houser or Webster Jackson. Marv Wenniger came to me and he said, I’ll give you the choice to pick whichever one of these men that you think would be suitable for Urban Renewal. Skinner: Urban Renewal Project was around 1968, wasn’t it? Pruitt: Mm-hmm. Skinner: About 1968. Pruitt: Yeah. [camera man]: Four minutes left, John. Skinner: Okay. Pruitt: Yeah, so I selected Webster over Wayne Jackson and Herbert Houser. Because I felt like Webster knew more about the community than anybody else. And that’s why I picked him. And a lot of people was dissatisfied with Webster. Skinner: James, there’s a lot of unsung heroes and heroines, if you will, in the community. When I say unsung, individuals that were behind the scene and individuals that were out there in the trenches and never got the credit for it. Do you know some of those people out there, James? Pruitt: Gilbert Owens, Emma Hawkins, Joe Bush, Cloy, Ray Henry, Herman James--he worked out there with his son—oh, it’s so many people that gave a hand out there. They worked with us. Even George Heidlebaugh, they’d come out there and they’d help. Whatever little they could do. That’s one thing they done, they really did. And we appreciated that. But there was Vanis Daniels and Willy Daniels. They worked out there. Skinner: Anyway, again, James, we—when I say we, again, it’s African Americans for an Academic Society History and Recognition Committee, do greatly appreciate you taking this time out and sharing this information with us and we’re working towards successfully putting together this exhibit. With your help, I think we’re going to achieve it. Pruitt: Thank you, and you know you’re like my son anyway. I worked with you quite a bit. And you’re grown up. [LAUGHTER] Yup. <a href="https://youtu.be/yPWOzm9FYj0">View interview Part 1 on Youtube.</a> <a href="https://youtu.be/blacQngZFTo">View interview Part 2 on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2006 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Pruitt Description An account of the resource James Pruitt moved to the Tri-Cities in 1948 and was influential in civil rights movements. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Racism Segregation Civil rights Civil rights movements Affirmative action https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F719bed6d9c78e658d30ce6ade9bfc7c0.jpg acc5bf4ce410efe91e79d5dd08bda57d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Feb7f32b54e254f6c381371d0ad4674d9.mp4 401431f21aed89f6ef6130d03341dd02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roop, Jane Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Roop_Betty_Jane Robert Bauman: Ready to go? All right. OK, we'll go ahead and start. Betty Jane Roop: Okay. Bauman: Let's start by having you say your name and spell it for us. Roop: Okay. My name is Betty Jane Roop. R-O-O-P is the last name. Bauman: Thank you. My name is Robert Bauman and today's date is July 22nd of 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And you go by Jane. Roop: I go by Jane. Mm-hm. Bauman: So let's start, Jane, if you could talk about how and when your family arrived here in the Tri-Cities. What brought your family here? Roop: Okay. My dad ran away when he was about 13 years old, 14 years old and he ended up in the Roundhouse at Pasco. And eventually made his way back home, but always remembered this place. And so when he was out of the service for World War II, he decided we'd move here because there was work. And so we came in 1949 and lived here until the Army base closed down in North Richland in '56, '57. And so that's how we got here. Bauman: And how old were you at the time? Roop: I was about five. Bauman: And do you have any memories, or what are some of your earlier memories of the area? Roop: I guess the earliest memory was living in what's called old Navy housing in Pasco. That was kind of a community and I remember playing there as a kid. And then we lived there for a while. And then we move to the trailer court in North Richland and I started kindergarten there. And some of my earliest remembrances are how cold it was walking to school. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the trailer camp like? Could you describe that at all? Roop: Well, it was the largest trailer camp in the world and we were very proud of that. And it was just block after block of trailers. And there was approximately, oh, I don't know, let's see, 20 trailers on each side of a block and they were usually divided up, and there was a big bath house in the middle. Because at that time, a lot of the trailers didn't have washing machines or even bathrooms. So in the middle of that block was a big cement house, bathroom, wash room, and that kind of thing. And it was a wonderful place for kids to grow up. There were lots of kids around all the time and we would live very close and I remember it just being a very safe environment, especially during the summer when we would play until it was dark, and often hid in that bath house. Bauman: And what about the school? What was the school like? Roop: Well, at John Ball, it was a huge Quonset hut school. It had a long center part, kind of like a centipede. And then off of that long center part came the classrooms. And again, one of the things I remember as a kid is that you couldn't get in. And during the winter, you had to wait until the halls were open to get inside and it was very cold. And at that time, girls, you weren't allowed to were dresses—or pants. You had to sort of wear pants underneath your dress. So you would dress kind of double layer with a dress on top and the pants underneath because it was so cold and you had to wait outside to get in. But my first goal was to become a hall monitor so I could get in out of the cold. [LAUGHTER] And the younger, the first, second, third grades were on one end and the fourth, fifth, and sixth were on the other end. And it was a small school, a relatively small school. But I remember lots of fond memories of that school and I started kindergarten there and left in sixth grade when they closed it down. Bauman: And was it like K through eight, or do you know how-- Roop: I don't think we went through eighth grade. I think it only went through sixth. Bauman: Okay. Roop: Yeah. I'm pretty sure. It was just through sixth. And I think they went into Richland then, to one of the schools there. Bauman: So what sort of job did your father have then? Roop: He was first a teamster and worked loading, getting people to and from the site from a major--there was a huge bus center. In fact, I think it's still there to some extent. And he worked there as a teamster. And then after a few years, he took training and became a pipe fitter and was a pipe fitter out there until it closed down. Bauman: And where had you lived before this? Roop: We came from Oklahoma. My dad was in the Navy until, I think about after the war, '44, '45. He was stationed in Hawai’i. And after the war, we came out here, because it was a time of just finding work and it was a lot of work here. Bauman: And did you have any idea what sort of place Hanford was, what sort of work was being done at Hanford? Roop: You know, as a kid, what I remember most is all the kind of secrecy and the whispering. Like you didn't know what was really going on, but Rattlesnake Mountain to us kids was always a very mysterious place. Because it was like over there, there was something really big and scary. So I remember that being—because it dominates the landscape even today. And nobody really talked about their work, but you knew things were going on there that you couldn't talk about. Bauman: So you lived in the trailer camp from about 1950 or so? Roop: Yeah, it was about '50 to '56, '57, and there was a big Army base out there. And when they closed the Army base, they closed a lot of the trailers. It shrunk in size. So a lot of people moved from one part of the trailer court to another part if they were still employed. And so it kind of shrunk and it's mostly where Battelle is right now-- Bauman: Right. Right. Roop: --where that area where all the trailers were and the school and everything. Bauman: And what about your family then? What happened to your family? Roop: After they closed down, my dad worked, I think it was only less than a year and then he went back in the Navy. And from there then he went for training in Oklahoma, and then he went to the Philippines, and then we moved as a family to Midway Island, and then came back here. He got out of the Navy again in about '61, '60, I think it was, and then we came back here to this area and lived here pretty much ever since. Until my dad died, he lived here—1991. So we came back in about '60, '61 and he was here until he is death in '91. Bauman: And he came to work at Hanford? Roop: He didn't. He did for a while, and then he became an independent trucker, which was always his passion. Bauman: And so how old were you then when you came back? Roop: I was a junior in high school when we came back. So I left when I was in sixth grade and then came back when I was a junior. Bauman: And which high school did you go to then? Roop: Col High. Columbia High. I was a Bomber, still a Bomber. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what was the community like when you came back and high school? Could you describe that? Roop: Well, when I came back, of course, North Richland was no longer here. And all those usual signs and maybe people have talked about this—well, where we're sitting now was an area where we did some hunting and bringing our dogs down next to the river. And then on the other side of the GW Way was a huge outdoor theater right below that hill. And all of these kind of landscape—that landscape was pretty much gone by then. And we moved into a smaller trailer court for a little while on Stevens Drive, right off of Stevens Drive. And then my dad did go—I think he might have returned to work for a little bit out at Hanford as a pipe fitter, but as soon as he kind of got himself organized, he bought a truck and started trucking in the area. Bauman: So going back then to your earlier childhood in North Richland, were there services there and in the trailer camp, grocery stores or something? Roop: Yes. Yes, there was. There was a theater that I remember very well, and it was actually on the Army base and almost everything was. There was a grocery store and I can't remember the name of it. There was a post office. There was a theater. There was a beautiful little park that we used to ride our bikes to that kind of looked at the grocery store. Maybe there was a block between or maybe a quarter mile, but a nice little park there. Bauman: Like a park with play equipment, sort of thing? Roop: Not play equipment, but trees and benches. Yeah. And we didn't really leave the area to do grocery shopping at all. If you wanted to go, there wasn't any place to really eat. There was not like diner or a cafe. And I remember we used to go into the Thrift Way into Richland every Friday night for a roast beef sandwich dinner. [LAUGHTER] And my mother worked in that grocery store for a little while as a checker. Bauman: Do you remember the name of the theater? Roop: I don't remember the name, and it was just right there on the Army post. And then, of course, later, the one downtown--well, there's the old, The Players where The Players are now. But there was another theater, sort of where the Desert--I'm remembering the old name, but where the Red Lion Hotel is. But there was another theater there in that block, a regular movie theater. And I can remember going there as a child and mostly seeing war movies that scared me, because they made a lot of stuff like that after the war, about the war. Bauman: Were there any doctors’ offices in North--did you have come into Richland for medical appointments? Roop: Yes, yes, we did. I don't remember them being any doctors and I had asthma as a child and I was often—4:00 in the morning we were heading somewhere. But mostly all of those kind of services were actually in Richland. And certainly in '62 when we got back, it was all still in Richland. And I was a patient of Dr. Corrado’s for many years. And he's a well-known physician in the neighborhood, in the community. Bauman: Right. So at what point did you become aware of what was being made at Hanford, the work that was being done at Hanford? Roop: I don't think I really understood for years what was really going on there. I think I was an adult before I really knew that they were making plutonium and uranium and things like that. Because we just didn't talk about it. You just didn't talk about it. And I guess the only thing, really, I would say was that we had to do the drills that you do that most kids did by--with their head over, you know, putting-- Bauman: Desk cover. Roop: --underneath your desk and all that. We—in fact, that is one of the poem I wrote that's in Particles on the Wall is about. Our drill was too right to go outside and there was a huge, sandy ditch, huge, long ditch--I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of it, I brought one--where we had to go outside and lay down in the ditch face down with our hands like this, in this ditch. And so we always knew it was often very scary and we knew that we were in a place that was targeted. I think kids felt that. That we were in a dangerous place because of the area, but we didn't know why. And we didn't know what it was. And I was trying to remember when exactly I knew what they made. And it wasn't--I think for sure I was an adult. And I talked with a fellow who worked in one of the plants out there. He explained to me how those plants really worked, like a pressure cooker and everything. And do you know something? I think I was 30-some years old before I really knew. So you just had all these--the innuendo of it. Bauman: You had some sense it had to do with defense or something. Roop: Defense, and it was scary. And of course, in high school, we knew of the bomber, so we knew of the bomb. I think I must have realized that part of what they did out there was making that bomb, but I can't tell you exactly how I got to know it. Bauman: Right. So you were in North Richland from about kindergarten through about sixth grade, you said. Roop: Mm-hm. Bauman: Did you stay in touch with any of the families or any of your friends in that school? Roop: Yes. There were the Keyeses. Yes, they had kids my age and we played together an awful lot. So there was three families that I sort of knew after that, but the Keyeses I did stay in touch with and they had a son a couple years younger than I was and he died about 10 or 15 years ago. He was younger and his brother died even at a younger age. I did stay in touch with them in knew them many years after. But it's funny. I know that there are other families, but we didn't stay too much in touch. There was about four families that every now and then we'd run into. But we didn't socialize and didn't get together like that except the Keyeses. Bauman: You mentioned a little bit earlier the drill of laying down in the ditch in the sand. Were there any other things that you remember from growing up that were connected to Hanford? Roop: Like the secrecy? Bauman: Yeah, the secrecy, or anything. Roop: Well, I knew that you couldn't go across--you could only drive out on the highway that goes north so far and then there was a checkpoint. And of course, when I grew up, there was no road that you could drive across to Vantage. Bauman: Oh, okay. Roop: Okay. That was all restricted area. And I think you could go as far as what was the first gate and then take sort of a left and go west to Yakima, but all of that area was off limits. And you know, I can't even remember the Geiger counter things that I know some of the people, the poets who read in Particles on the Wall, they remember the Geiger counters and that kind of thing. But I can't say I even remember that. Yeah. Bauman: So in looking back at those years, overall, how would you describe your childhood, I guess, in North Richland? Roop: Well--and that's what my poem is about--in many ways, because it was a small community and we all lived very close together, pretty much everybody knew what everybody else was doing and all the kids played together or didn't, but everybody knew who was fighting with who. That was a wonderful part, but it had this dark kind of cloud over it that was kind of scary as a kid. And the other thing that I remember from that time in the trailer court is that we had a ghetto inside the trailer court. And not too many people really remember this, that there was still segregation and all of the black people lived in one block, sort of in the middle of the school. And I only remember--and I went back and I saw pictures of John Ball's schools, each class, and there was one black boy named Maurice in there, but he was the only one. And I used to love walking through that area because it smelled so good, of all kinds of smells, cornbread and black eyed peas and greens and stuff. And so I remember that area and one person that I was describing that to who read my poem was very upset. She said, well, that's not true, but it really was true. We did have that area. Bauman: Well, yeah. I know much of the Tri-Cities was segregated at the time too. So about how large of an area was that then, with the trailer area that was the black area, I guess. Roop: It was very small. I would say it was one block. Just one block, maybe on each side. So we're talking maybe up to 30 or 40 families, maybe, but very small and one child, one black child in that school. Bauman: And they only had one child in the school. Roop: Mm-hm. Bauman: And that was like that as far as you can remember, the whole time you were-- Roop: Yes, that there was a segregated area, yes. Bauman: Interesting. Roop: Yeah. Bauman: Do you have your poem with you? Roop: Yes, I do. Bauman: I wonder if it might be good to have you read it. Roop: Okay. I would be happy to. Bauman: Because that would tie in with the answer you've been giving to my questions and so forth. Roop: Okay. And I have that and then I also have--it's kind of a bad picture, but I can't get it any better, and you might off the internet—but of the children actually lying in the ditch. That was in The Tri-City Herald, and I found it on the archive site for the Col High Bomber site. And it does tell on that site--and I do have it at home, I just didn't bring it—of who took the picture. And I believe that that was taken somewhere in the early '50s. Bauman: Do you remember how regularly these drills happened? Roop: About once a month. Bauman: Okay. Roop: About once a month. Bauman: Wow. Okay. Roop: And so if you want me to do this, I'd be glad to do that. Bauman: Yeah. That would be great, I think. Roop: Okay. And took a class in how to read your poetry, so let me get in the mindset here. Bauman: Sure. Roop: Because I've read it a couple of places and--Okay. "North Richland Childhood," by Jane Roop. "We came from Oklahoma, Momma, Daddy, and me after the war, dirt poor, to live in a 20-by-8-foot trailer on a 30-by-30-foot lot with other electricians, pipe fitters, teamsters, janitors, proud to be part of this atomic business, living in the largest trailer court in the world. Big enough to have our own ghetto, two blocks of dark, delicious smells, frying fish, boiled greens, hot cornbread. Once a month, from the top of tall poles, warning sirens wailed. The schoolchildren, black and white, raced by swings, monkey bars, the tetherball ring, to the sandy ditch behind John Ball Elementary. Strung ourselves down like paper dolls, clinching our fear behind closed eyes. A useless attack, a defense against a nuclear attack, but we would have been easy to bury there." And I did find out later that there was some science behind being in a ditch. According to one of my scientific friends here now, they thought that if you were in a ditch and sort of down that the wave would pass you by. But as a child, it never made any sense. But that's the poem and that's traveling with Particles on the Wall. Bauman: Right. Thank you very much for reading that. That's great. Roop: You're welcome. Bauman: As you were talking, I thought of one other thing that I hadn't asked you. Were there any places of worship, any churches-- Roop: Oh, yes. Bauman: --at camp there? Roop: Oh, yeah. I don't remember them being in the camp. We went to the Lutheran church on George W. Way that is now the Chinese. And then, of course, there was, still is the huge Baptist church there. And so during my childhood, I attended both of those at different times. Yes, but I can't remember and I'm sure there must have been on the base something for people, but we didn't attend there. We went into Richland. Bauman: Okay. Great. Is there anything I haven't asked you about or that you think is important to share that you haven't been able to mention yet? Roop: Well, I was just trying to think. It was just a special time, special memories. It's funny. As kids, you do remember things that were scary. Bauman: It's also very unique. I mean, not a lot of people grow up in a place like that, connected to something like that. Roop: Yes. And of course, we were always afraid of the rattlesnakes. [LAUGHTER] And the river because at that time the river was very fast when we first moved here. It wasn't dammed up, and it was always a great threat. And one of our things was not to go to the river. You don't go down there. And of course, that's where we went, you know. That's the way kids are. But I can remember that being very frightening. Bauman: Right. Roop: But other than that, yeah. Good memories too. Bauman: Right. Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing your stories today. Roop: You’re welcome. Bauman: I appreciate that very much. Roop: Okay. Yeah. Bauman: Do you have a couple of minutes? Man one: Yes. Roop: And I was trying to remember because I lived at 825 E Street. And I think it was A Street, down by the river, but I can't remember exactly. Bauman: Oh, okay. We'll go ahead. Man one: Would you mind your adjusting your microphone? Roop: Oh. Man one: It's sort of just kind of twisting a bit. Roop: There. Does that do it? Man one: Excellent. Thank you. Bauman: So I wonder if you could talk about the housing differences with the different classes of workers. Roop: Okay. Sure. What I remember most, of course, is that all the administrative people and scientists were living in houses in Richland in the ABC houses and that kind of thing. All the blue collar workers, electricians, pipe fitters, janitors, anything like that, North Richland trailers. And then there was sort of a mixed class that lived in houses down along the river, close to the river, but parallel to the trailer court, and they had houses as well. And there was approximately, I'm trying to think, maybe one row down kind of on the river, then one row kind of back just a little bit. And I believe that that was A Street—A and B. I lived on E Street. So that's how I remember that. And then, of course, there was the Army base where people lived there as well. Bauman: Right. So you were you aware of that sort of growing up? Roop: Oh, yes. You betcha. Oh, yeah. Yes. Because living in a trailer house was always at least then, rather, I mean, you were poor and you knew you were poor. And you knew you were poor, for me, because I couldn't wear the same kind of clothes that other kids wore. And that goes back forever, doesn't it? That I can remember it was a very big deal to buy a Pendleton skirt, a wool skirt. It was very expensive, and my mother bought me one, one time. And that was a great treat. Do you remember Laverne and Shirley and the poodle skirts and that kind of thing? That's the way it was then. Yeah. So there was very definitely class distinctions. Bauman: Did you talk about it in your family at all or is it just sort of an understood thing? Roop: I think the only way it really came out was, for me, was the clothes. I don't remember--as soon as you could, you moved up into a trailer, the first one that we lived in, like in the poem, didn't have a running toilet and I don't believe a shower. So the first thing that you did was try to get a trailer big enough and wide enough so that you could have a bathroom. We never had a wash room and you hung your clothes up on a big drying area. They had clotheslines in the bath house region. And I've always thought, I bet you that's the reason everybody use Clorox because in those days, everybody got to see your linen and your underwear. [LAUGHTER] Everybody could tell whether it was white or not because that's the way things were then. And I can remember getting washed in one of those big, square, cement tubs when I got like a ringworm. What do you call that? And you had to go and be washed in that kind of thing and that was the biggest place where I could be in something like a bathtub. So I was washed in that big bathtub in the wash house. But then as soon as you could get a big enough trailer, and then, of course, the next step was to try to get a house. Bauman: A house. Roop: Yeah. Bauman: Right. All right. Thank you very much. Roop: You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:29:25 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 241 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1949-56, ca1960-2014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jane Roop Description An account of the resource An interview with Jane Roop conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-24: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe492c807fcb72ea484f1a3f609650c6a.jpg 01677cd59b210bb62fc34da468aef790 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe80189acb0a6011ff60f71ddfc211623.mp4 e14a584a638ed796407bd0d8a1c20f21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jean Johnson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Northwest Public Television | Johnson_Jean </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Robert Bauman: All right. Ready to get started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Jean Johnson: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. We'll start by having you state your name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, my name--the name that people from White Bluffs will remember is Carrie Jean Conning. That was my name there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Right. Your name now is Jean Johnson? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. I left the Carrie off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. Great. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're doing this interview on July 31, 2013, at Jean Johnson's home. And so I want to start our interview by just asking you to tell me a little bit about your family. If you know when they came to White Bluffs, how and why they came there, and when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: When my father was Leslie Andrew Conning. Known in White Bluffs as Andy. Andy Conning. He came from Pennsylvania. Somewhere here in the West and came up the river and landed in White Bluffs in 106. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And do you know why he came to White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: He was kind of an orphan when he was born. His mother died with birth. And his grandmother and father raised him, and they couldn't take care of him, so an uncle took him. And his name was Andrew somebody else. Had sheep. And he wanted my dad to come back, come there into Colorado, or in the White Bluffs area and have sheep. Don't know if he ever did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And so that's why he came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: My mother came from South Dakota. They went to Yakima. I don't know why. And then they went from Yakima to White Bluffs in 1912. She married my dad in 1918. And he had four--they had four children. I have three older brothers, then myself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And so your parents met in White Bluffs, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. They were neighbors. Because her name was Johnson, also. She came in there as Irma Johnson. And then she married Codding. That's what people are confusing when they say, what was your mother's maiden name? Johnson. [LAUGHTER] So, then I went to work right from graduation to The Republic newspaper in Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: In Yakima, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And I worked there--I was only, I think I was maybe 17. I was going to say 16, because I did graduate a year earlier in my age than I should have. And I could only work so many hours, because that was during the war. '43 I graduated from Yakima High School. And I had to sign a paper for a Social Security number. I never had had one before. So then that's when I took off the Carrie and just put Jean Conning. And then, of course, as soon as I got married, I had to do it again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I wonder if you could talk a little bit about where you grew up in White Bluffs. Your family farm, what that was like, what sort of crops you grew, that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: He grew--my father had apples. And we lived right next to the Columbia River, and we had a water pump. And used to pump our water out of the river to irrigate. And then we had--he had just a home. Little bunch of fruit trees. Peaches and pears and cherries. And every—lot of people would come and pick them and can them, and my mother would can them. And they worked—they irrigated with the pipe and plugs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: What kind of pipes, do you know what that pipe was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Wooden. Wooden pipe. And they had a cement--I don't even remember what they call it. But the water came from the river, and stayed in there, and then the pipes would drain off to put water in the field. And then the war came. And I was still in school, because I started--I was born in 1925. So he lost that place and had to move to another place. And the boys were all in the service by then. And he worked it by himself. And worked himself down. He got sick. But we stayed in White Bluffs. And then the cars were going through with the US government, so we knew something was going to happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the farm that you grew up on. Were there other buildings that you had? Was there like a storage--a warehouse for storing some of the fruit, or any other sort of buildings? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Not then. We had a barn, because we had a milk cow, and two horses. The horses used to pull the spray wagon. And then in later years, they put a pipe out for them, to hold a spray. So they could just hook up and spray. And they were spraying that lime and sulfur, something like that. It was very--after everybody was gone, I heard how dangerous that was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And was that for insects? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hmm, worms. The worms were eating him up. And nothing would stop them, since I told you before, they didn't come with DDT until after the war started, which was too late for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Did you have electricity on your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Uh-huh. And my mother had an electric stove and an electric washing machine. But it was just a small little house. And the school bus would not pick me up, because I lived within three miles of the school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So you walked to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: So I had to walk to school. And there were three other girls there, who all four of us had to walk to school, carrying our lunch buckets and our books. And no fear. You know, every place we went, we walked. We had no fear. We knew everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Do you remember the names of any those girls that you used to walk to school with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yvonne Ponsat was one. P-O-N-S-A-T. Her father was French. And she had two brothers who were in high school with my brothers. Another one was Elizabeth Keele. I don't know what he does. He's around Yakima somewhere. He's probably gone by now, too. The other girl, I can't remember her name, because she had moved there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So when walking to school, was that elementary school and high school, or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: High school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: High School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yeah, the school bus would take us to grade school, but not to high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The high school was closer to you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And it was just across one field, but we walked over and went down and walked down the road. And then eventually we all got bicycles. But the bicycles were--we were almost grown by the time we could afford a bicycle. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Must have been a little tricky walking sometimes in the winter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: There were no winters there. We lived so close to the river, it was warm all winter. I don't remember any snow. No snowmen, no snow fights, no icy roads. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And did you have telephone at your house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, yes. With the ringer, you know-- "number please!" [LAUGHTER] You remember them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I remember the dial phones. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh yeah. Well, this was just a telephone operator. And we also had RFD. We also had mail service. So it wasn't too remote. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So how far from the town were you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, they said I lived within three miles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And that was the limit for school was three miles from town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Do you remember any of your teachers from school at all? From either grade school or high school? Did you have any favorite teachers or ones that you remember at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, those pictures reminded me. I did not remember them, yes, but I do now. And another thing, too. My father was the clerk of the school board. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: So he got to have all the interviews of all the people who came that wanted a job of teaching. And my youngest brother and I would sneak around and try and get a good look at them before any of the school kids did. We wanted to know who they were first. [LAUGHTER] My other two brothers had graduated from high school by then, but my younger brother and I went to school as close together as four years could do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Were your parents involved in any other organizations at all in the community? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, just my dad was a Mason, and my mother was Eastern Star. And that was all of their--they did not go to church. And we had eight churches in White Bluffs, and they were all active. No, there were six! Six. I'm too far. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: What about the town itself? What sorts of businesses do you remember, or stores, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. You want to bring that in, Leslie? It's out there. I didn't bring the right one. It's a tablet. Just seeing that picture reminded me of a lot of their names. Okay, the grocery store was the first scene. His name was Dick Reirson. R-E-I-R-S-O-N. And then we had a drugstore, but it was a pharmacy. And he had an ice cream table. And he had a distorted hand, and he used to put the ice cream cone down in there, you know, with the little top, and then reach down. Remember those cans that had the ice cream in it? Good old hard ice cream put in there, and never drop a drop. He was also the band leader for the high school music. And then there was the power company, and I could not remember the lady's name. They had Pacific Power there. And he had a Ford dealer with a service company. That was Fred Gillhualy. G-I-L-L-H-U-A-L-Y. And they were four boys. And I don't know if they're around Yakima or gone by now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Yeah, I'm not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I know the name because one boy said he was flying home from California to Yakima, and they were taking—so many people had to get off the airplane, but he got to ride all the way to Yakima. Went to get off the plane, the little stewardess said, how do you pronounce your last name? [LAUGHTER] They couldn't tell him to get off the airplane because they couldn't pronounce his name! So that was good. And Levi Austin was the superintendent at the high school. And the Austin name is from Prosser. The one boy, he had a hardware store in Prosser. But I keep thinking, you know, they're still there, but I'm just lucky to live as long as I have. Because they were probably--they were in my brother's age. And see in there, everybody's gone. So I don't remember any teachers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I remember--well, I don't remember the principal, but I remember the principal of the high school took us all in the next morning after Pearl Harbor, and told us that they had bombed Pearl Harbor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Is that how you found out about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: World War II, yes. Because remember Roosevelt? Franklin Roosevelt? "This day will be known in infamy." Well, I heard that. Course, it never went away. And then my father--this was years before we moved to this ranch. The first ranch we had when we were all little. My father and the neighbor built this warehouse, and they came in with apples, and they poured them in this water bath, and then it went down. And the women sorted off all the bad, and the other ladies were packing the apples with wrapper paper. Take that little paper. And they'd go on a roller to the lidder, and he would put the lid on and stack them up. And then two more people would come with these lifts and carry the five boxes of apples across a ramp and put them on the truck until they got the truck loaded, and then they would take it to White Bluffs, to the railroad. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: The Milwaukee Railroad came into White Bluffs, and they would take them to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And that's how the apples would get shipped out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And the Pear and Fruit. I don't even know if they're still there, but my father worked for them after he had to leave White Bluffs and went to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were growing up on the farm, did you have any chores? Any things that you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, I was little. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was little. No. And I said we didn't have any indoor plumbing, and we didn't have any running water. And my brother reminds me so much of Wes, the boy you met. Said, well, Jeannie said we just put the bucket on the rope and put it down, and get a bucket of water. Wind the rope up, grab a hold of the buck, and if you were still able, you'd run the water to the house. [LAUGHTER] So he tried to tell me that we did have running water. But no, I did--I probably took care of the chickens or something like that. I didn't have any pets. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Did you swim in the river at all, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No. No, I was too little. The boys did, and we'd go out in one of these peach orchards. There were a lot of orchards in White Bluffs. Beautiful orchards. And they also had irrigating water. Pretty British, no. What's the Puget--what's over here? Where the river goes under the bridge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Priest River! Priest Rapids! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Priest Rapids, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Priest Rapids irrigation. And they had paid in money for the upkeep of it. And that was one of the things that the boys--some White Bluffs boy told me, did you ever get any money back from your--what do you call that? Whenever you give money--have money yearly. It's not a donation; it's a cost. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The years of the irrigation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, can't think. Okay. And no, we didn't ever have any. But they did have plenty of water. That's one thing they did have up there was plenty of water. And those peach orchards, they could afford to clean up new land, and bringing in new trees, and have the water. And they could--with the winters that we had there, their fruit would get onto the market before California would get up to Yakima. So when that company came in to take over, they gave my dad about $5 an acre. And these guys got maybe $20. And they were all rich enough to hire lawyers, and they hired lawyers. And their lawyer got them much more money for their land. But it was worth it. To see those brand new trees get just bulldozed over! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was wondering if you remember any special community events or celebrations? Did you have any 4th of July celebrations, or picnics, or anything like that? Foot races? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I can't remember any specific. I do remember that they built next to the high school something called a Community Hall. And they would have dances and the boys would play basketball. And maybe Kennewick would come up and play basketball. They'd have basketball games. But as far as grange, they did not participate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, and this orchard, in their warehouse. Yes, he had told me that before, that he had about 16 people that they hired. And my mother was the bookkeeper. And so these people were getting money every Friday night. 1934 and '35. So he had lots of friends. Lots of people liked him, because he did provide for people to get a job. There were no jobs, as far as work was concerned. The grocery store would hire--his nephew was there. And the drugstore did it by himself. And one lady, Mrs. Leander, was the postmistress. She took care of the post office. I don't know who any of the people were that came around to deliver the mail. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that there was the initial farm that your parents had, and then your father had moved at some point. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: About how old were you at that time, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, according to the pictures on--at home, I was about four. Because I was just with the kids as they would stand out go to school. I wasn't going to school. And then I cannot tell you how long it was, but it was a big blow to leave that house and that yard, and go to a house where workers had lived in all their life. And they had cardboard on their walls, covering up the wood. And it had one bedroom, and I got to have the bedroom. And there was a big porch in the front, and the three boys slept in part of it, and Mother and Dad slept in the other. But the weather over there was never cold. I guess it was hot, but I don't remember that. I'm sure it was hot. Because it was desert. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how far away would the second place have been from your first house? Was it fairly close? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I would say three and a half miles, just up over a hill. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And then you lived there until you moved to Yakima? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. You mentioned that you'd heard about World War II beginning. You want to talk about your brothers? And I understand they all joined the service at some point. Is that correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And that's why you were still living in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, Yakima. Well, you're right. They were. But then they left, because one was going to university and the other two we're going to Washington State. And they joined in what, '41? And then we had to move in '43. But they said, Mom, don't worry about moving to Yakima, because we can get to Yakima from anywhere in the world, but we can't get to White Bluffs. So they were probably already in the service doing their first camp or something. And one--I had no idea in the world what reconnaissance meant--he did not fight a war, but he was in reconnaissance--until I looked it up in the dictionary. And he was fighting the war up in the air, taking pictures of their movements, the Japanese movements. And my other brother was in a tanker taking fuel from New Orleans to France in the Atlantic. And he said that the Atlantic was full of German submarines. He said there were four days that they didn't even take their clothes off. But his was brand new, and he could not go slow as everybody else did. And he could go faster than their convoy, so he circled their own convoy without any cover, because he said his boat would not go that slow. And my other brother was in Marine fighter pilot. And he--I don't know if you knew the story about Ted Williams, but Ted Williams' group came in. Whenever my brother left that camp, Ted Williams came in. And I just heard that on the--because people look at me and say, Ted Williams, the baseball player? And I said, yes, he went to war. Yeah, he was in a group that came in and took over where my brother had been. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you started seeing some cars and vehicles that said U.S. Government. Do you remember any more about that? Anything else that happened? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, that was our first--there was gossip around that, I don't know, that they were going to take over and build a atomic bomb or something on our land. That we were going to have to leave. Well, you know, until it came to push, and then came shove. But these station wagons were showing up, and each one of them had about four men sitting in it. And they were surveying the land. And they had surveyed how many houses there were, and what condition they were in, because some houses were ready to be burned and a few houses were moved. And the rest of them were demolished. And then all of a sudden it came across that you were going to have to move by the 15th of September. They gave them the date. And my mother worked on an election board. And whatever year that was, I don't know. But she wanted to stay and work on that last board. And I had been told later that that was the only money she was going to move with, was what she got paid for. She had a sister that lived in Yakima, and they found us an apartment. And it was just two rooms. Oh, goodness, it was small. But that was where we were. And my dad stayed to work on the orchard. They let him stay until the crops were all picked. And he sent the last bunch of apples off that orchard to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: How did you feel about having to leave? Or your parents ever express anything about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: They did not, because as I've said before, I said we were poor. Leslie just said we didn't have any money. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And we all got jobs. I got babysitting jobs with a little neighborhood girl. The mother was there, but I would just go over there and play with her, and get maybe $0.25 or something. Well, that's all there was. And I didn't drive. I couldn't go anywhere. Cars were--gas was rationed. And then we went to Yakima. And I graduated on about the 3rd of June and went to work on the 6th. I said to Mother, now, don't wake me up. I'm going to sleep for two days. She woke me up and said, well, there's an ad in the paper. The newspaper wants help. And I said, well, I'll go see. Well, I got taken that day. I worked there for seven years. In the advertising, Johnny, doing anything that they wanted done. I would do it. I ran the switchboard. And I could--I did a lot of odd jobs there. But I was in advertising. Yeah, I have to tell you that writing for sale notes to be published in the paper. And Friday night, he had to have it. Everything had to be back in the room to get onto Sunday's paper, at least by five o'clock Friday night. And this one man would invariably come about 20 after 4:00. And every time I could, I would leave the room. But I got a hold of him one time, and he had cattle for sale. And I was writing it down. And he had a milking short-horn bull. And I wrote it down, and I looked at it. That's what it said, a milking short-horn bull. I said, that's not possible! Oh, he said, you silly girls don't know a thing. That's what it is. Put in the paper. [LAUGHTER] I couldn't ask him, hey, my father wouldn't have known what a short-horn bull was either. [LAUGHTER] Wow, I never will forget that. So I found out later that that's a breed of animal. That's what they're called. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was asking about leaving White Bluffs. Did your parents get any money for their property at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I have no idea. Money was never spoken of. I know that we took what furniture that there was suitable, and we had an aunt and uncle that lived in Sunnyside. And they came over with an old truck, and took whatever we couldn't take. Because when we went to Yakima, they said the apartment was furnished. So we didn't take anything. And that was bad. Because what they had furnished, we didn't want to sleep on. And we'd already sent out stuff to Sunnyside. So we slept on a Davenport until we got enough money to--Mother went to work for a lady that lived up the street. Had a little milk and bread grocery store, and she had two sons in the service. And so she and Mother had lots in common. And Mother would go to work for her two days--for a couple of hours two days a week. And that was what we bought groceries with. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were living in White Bluffs, how you get news? Was there a newspaper? Did you have a radio? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I never read a newspaper. I don't know anything about that. As soon as I got into the newspaper business, I read everything I can. I don't know. And as I said before, the radio we had was run by a battery. And the boys were allowed to have 30 minutes of radio when they got home from school. One of them was Jimmy Austin. Remember the--well you probably don't remember--it was a airplane. My one brother was crazy about airplanes then. And then they got into the, oh, some stupid--I think that was television, though. And then my dad was a great news man, and he would listen to the Richfield Reporter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how about you? Did you listen to anything on the radio? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Uh-uh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was wondering if you ever had a chance, opportunity, to go back to White Bluffs at some point later, during one of the White Bluffs reunions, or anything like that, where you have to go back and see the area at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Just three times I have. One was our 60th graduation. And the four I told you about--we had four--and the other three came. And that was when he took my girlfriend and I up to the--Harry Anderson took us up to our homes. Otherwise we would just join the convoy that would go out around and around and around. And come back in and drive through what White Bluffs streets were to get back out to the park. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were able to go back and see the area, were there any things that you recognized at all that were still there, or was pretty much everything gone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, a lot of the houses were still there. The girls that I used to go visit and knew about. And the warehouse was there. Just about the last packing he did was when he left. And a wind storm had come in and it was just boards. And the wind leveled it. So that was the end of that. And our hay barn, our cow barn, had collapsed, and I didn't want to go back anymore. It wasn't home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I see. What do you think is important for people to know about the community of White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I want them to know that we were a community. We had stores. We had grocery stores. We had a barber shop. Had the power company. We had electricity at home. My mother had an electric washing machine, which was very, very rare. But the boys had made enough money in the service to help her buy some stuff. So she had an electric stove, and she had a wood stove. And the electric stove is what she baked in. Use it for baking. Because we had so many apples, she was always making apple pie. The wood stove had a great big reservoir. So if you wanted hot water, you started the stove. You'd have enough hot water to wash the dishes at suppertime, and wash your face to go to bed. That I can relate to something else that's kind of bad to these kids, but every morning, after breakfast, before we went to school, we’d put a little bit of soda and little bit of salt in the palm of our hand, and take our dry toothbrush and mix that together. Have a glass of water, and the four of us went outside, and stood outside on the lawn, and we'd all brush our teeth. Dip it in the water, and dip over here. We didn't have toothpaste, but I guess soda and salt will work just as well. We never had candy. We did have apple pie and chocolate cake. Mother did bake. And then my father had that cow, and would have a calf. And whenever the calf got big enough, he'd butcher it. And it would hang up in a tree. It was cool. It was always in the fall that he'd butcher the calf. And they'd go out and cut some meat, take it in, and have it for supper. So it was very, very pioneer. True. But as I said before, Leslie has made me think we were not poor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Right. Did you go to any other towns very much at all? To Pasco or to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, Pasco we went for a doctor, because I got real sick in my fifth grade. I had Bright's disease. Don't even know what it is. But the doctors now say, well, I'm glad you had it then, because we don't want you to have it now. And I had to stay in the hospital in Pasco. And my mother would come twice a week, and she'd say, how are you doing? Oh, I said, I wish you'd bring me some water from home. The water they give me has--they always put my medicine in my water! And I said, I don't like it that way. I like to be able to drink a drink of water. And she said, well, they shouldn't put your medicine in your water. So she went out to the nurse and said, Jean said that the water isn't good. Well, she complains to me, too, but she's drinking city water. They had chlorine in it, and I didn't like it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] How long were you in the hospital for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: About two weeks. To me, that was a long ways to be from home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And about how old were you at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was in fifth grade. I think I was 11. Bright's disease, I think, was a kidney problem, and the doctor, without telling me, told my mother that I may not ever be able to have children. So nobody told me anything about that until after I got married. And I had four children in six years, so I proved them wrong! [LAUGHTER] All doctors aren't right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Were there doctors in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was born there, yes. That's what one of my friends said, you couldn't have been born in White Bluffs unless you were born at home. I said, no, I was born in White Bluffs. There was a little house there, and there was some doctor. I don't know who he was. He was an old, old man. And the lady I talked to, the nurse, was a retired army nurse. And she said she had studied--what's baby birth? It's not pediatrics. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: It's not pediatrics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, anyhow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Woman: Was it midwifery? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yeah. Well, that's what she was. She was a midwife. So yeah. The boys were all born in Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: My mother would go in there and stay with her mother. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: But you were born in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was born in White Bluffs. And isn't that funny? I can remember that, a white house. It was spotless. And there was no dogs and cats running around in it. No children. Just that old man and that lady. But I made it through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Are there any other memories or stories, things you remember from growing up that we haven't talked about yet, or I haven't asked you about yet that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, I ended up with The Republic and then I got married. Well, I worked seven years at the newspaper office. And the picnics and things that we had was over on the other house where we had the big lawn. We always had a picnic there. A lot of those people who were working at the warehouse would come over on Sunday and bring one dish or something, and all their kids. And they would play on our yard, because we had water in the yard--came to go to the orchard--had been derailed and come on to the yard. And he had and old lawnmower and mowed it. So it was fun. And we had a lot of company, because everybody was beholden to my father. And that's about all I can remember, but I wanted to express myself that this is really from my heart, because I have wanted to do this. And I appreciate all your help and the other people coming in and standing there waiting for us to get done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for being willing to share your stories. This has been terrific. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Thank you. And the weather there! The weather in White Bluffs--I'm sorry. It was beautiful, even though it was desert. We had warm winters. I do not remember any snow. And it was a long trip from White Bluffs to Yakima in an old car. [bounces up and down] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Is that the Ford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: An old Ford--no, no. Oh, my, no. We had a big Chevrolet. My brother bought it, then they went to war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So you took the Chevrolet once they were gone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. Well, I am a very happy person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, thank you very much. Again, it was really appreciated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Crew woman: Is that it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Crew woman: Okay, well I heard you talking about the boat regatta. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh. Yeah. The boat regatta. There's a photo of the cars lined up on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Could you talk about that at all? Do you have any memories about the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, yes. Because two of our men were in two of those boats. One of them was the Wiehl. I can't remember what another man's name was. I don't remember too much about it, because to me the boats were just going around and around and the rest of us kids were either trying to get ice cream, or [LAUGHTER] see how many rocks we could pick up or something. It wasn't--and that's another thing, too. I probably mentioned that before. We were never afraid. We were never afraid. Day or night. If somebody new came into town, he was well covered. And everybody knew who he was in ten days, five days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The boat regattas, did it happen every year? Is that something that's a yearly-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: As far as I remember. I cannot say it was every year. Maybe every year for five years or something like that. And that was one of the biggest events. There was no rodeos, and no parades that I can ever remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay. Well, Jean, let’s have you look at some of these photos, maybe. And have you talk a little bit about them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Jean Johnson: All right. This is my mother and father’s wedding. They were married in Prosser in August 19—I almost want to say 1916. It doesn’t matter, really, it was somewhere in there. And they had met in White Bluffs, where mother’s family grew up—moved from Yakima to White Bluffs—was only 100 feet from Dad’s shack. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: So they met early in the shack. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: They were neighbors. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. Okay, and this was a brand new Ford Turing. It wasn’t Turing—what did I tell you it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: You thought maybe a Model A, possibly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: No. I don’t think—I don’t know. Maybe not, it was a brand new car. And when Dad went into White Bluffs to pick up the car, he took the three boys with him and bought them all three new hats. So they were spiffy and ready to go. And here they were just showing me off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: And this is my house in White Bluffs. I loved that house. And you can see from the pictures they had a great big lawn. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Right. More kids again here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. And we played—I was out on the grass all the time. The boys had pretend airports over here with their model airplanes. In those days they had airplanes that were made of steel or something, they were heavy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who took all these photos, did your parents have a camera then? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Are we all there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: No, but I mean—this is the four of you kids, but did your family have a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. They had a Kodak Box. And those other pictures that I took when I was older, I had a little tiny thing that took 110. And then they finally did away with the 110 film. So the girls gave me a digital—3M or something, I don’t know. I can’t think. [LAUGHTER] So I don’t take any more pictures. Yeah, this was 1937. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: So, you were about 12 years old? What year were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: ’25. No, I was little. I was about four, I didn’t get to go to school yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, here you were little, yeah. Let’s see. Oops. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. And that’s an orchard that they worked in and they climbed up a tree. And there was a ladder, and there’s the dog standing there with them. See that? Ben-ben was always with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: That was your family dog? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. There was a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who’s this here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: That’s my second brother. He was the one who was on the gas run for the Navy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: He had come home from Pullman. He was very, very studious. He was the president of his senior class in college. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay, was that Washington State? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yes. And this one—my older brother went to the University of Washington, Seattle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay, I’m going to bring in some of these school photos now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: This was the seventh grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And which one are you in here? You see yourself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Remember? I was in the background, up by the teacher, tall. Yeah. And this is what? Fifth and sixth. We were younger. See that’s me right there. My brothers were all ahead of me. And that man’s name was Tomet. He lived in [UNKNOWN]. Fred Tomet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And he was the teacher? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: This was taken outside in front the school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. That looks like a pretty good looking school, doesn’t it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: It does, yeah. Now here’s an earlier one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah, that was the teacher of second grade. I told you when she came back she had a little tiny—had a belly on her! Next time we knew, she had a new baby in her arms. That was my experience of when children would come, taught in school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And which one are you in this photo? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Oh, right there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Uh-huh. And there’s grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Oh, this is a whole bunch of them! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Looks like the whole grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: It must be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Of White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I think I’m down here, because that was the teacher. And that was my first grade teacher—I told you she was an older woman. And do you know, to this day—I called her Mrs. Moody—and there’s a lady in Ellensburg that my brothers went to school with. And they called her Mrs. So-and-so. In those days, that’s all we—you did not call them by Martha and George. They were mister and missus. And that’s what—in that, the lists that Betsy made of all those men in town—I didn’t know their first names that came to me. But they were always Mr. Gilhuly and Mr. Larsen and Mr. English. Kids in those days didn’t say, Hi Fred! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: [referring to picture] I can’t tell, I can’t tell. But I’m there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And another thing I wanted you to talk about was this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah, that was the name of my father’s apple. This was painted on the backside of his—on the solid end of the apple box. And that does say White Bluffs on it. Codding and Heideman, Fred Rea – Seattle was his—when his stuff was shipped out. When it went right into the store, right into people, it was Pear in Yakima. Pear Fruit Company. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who was Heideman? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: He was a neighbor. We lived here, and went through the orchard and through the orchard, and he lived right there. And they had five children and they were all younger than we were. But it’s funny how they grew up, because two of the boys were teachers that came into Yakima. They were agriculture teachers and one was a livestock teacher. And they came into the school from Wenatchee. So many of those kids, you know, they moved out of White Bluffs when they had to. And they all stayed within the area, almost. I don’t know, some of them must have left and went out of state, but a lot of them just stayed with what they knew. That’s the only thing you could do, you couldn’t get really educated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: A lot of them stayed close by? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: I meant to ask you, do you know how large your farm was, like how many acres? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I think it was something like 22. It wasn’t large, but they were all trees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And so your father partnered with Mr. Heideman for these apples. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Well, I would say Mr. Heideman let—knew my father. Because he wanted to build it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: And Heideman said, well, I’ll help you. And so they got in a real good friendship. Us kids were all good friends, but the parents didn’t have much to do until they got into this. But he was, as I said before, a lot of people had great respect for him for getting them jobs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Mm-hm, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Now, not to change the subject, but my boys are the same way as my dad was. Because my boys hire whatever they have to hire. And they are—the boys that they hire comment to them and to their parents how easy and how nice it is to work here. Because they say thank you, they don’t yell at them, they’re paid every time they need money or time they’re off. And that’s what they have learned. If they did the work, pay them. Don’t say you have to wait until Monday. So they have very good respect in the Valley. I’m very, very proud of all of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Sure. I meant to ask you, how did you come across this label? How did you get this label? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I have no idea. Somebody must have drawn it up for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Mm-hm. All right. Thanks. Thank you, that was very good. Very helpful. </div> </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244Kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04:24 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1925-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Conning, Andrew Johnson,Irma Ponsat, Yvonne Keele, Elizabeth Reirson, Dick Fred Gillhualy Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano)1882-1945 Williams, Ted Anderson, Harry Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jean Johnson Description An account of the resource An interview with Jean Johnson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-7: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/31/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0947cae6a7d6609fec1e5e21f597a9cb.jpg dce8044a4891ddf45ecb9276ae2b2cb4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2947228d76de1ce10b7fee1cad64e58f.mp4 9131434818e028c2feb68becda2e961b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jean Smith Description An account of the resource An interview with Jean Smith conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F04d6fb5586fd89129d3054b0c41df249.jpg f52f36f03b18e6ca3ad0ecc3929059b2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F151938c82a3c7912af7b3e83b9747fbf.mp4 fc9eebb9af727b3febf2c6cc28d97d6e Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history with Jerome Martin on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Jerome Martin about his experiences working at the Hanford site and his involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. And you—just wanted to use your legal name to start out with, but you prefer to be called Jerry, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Jerome Martin: Yes, I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Jerome’s a little too formal. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Right. Just for the technical purposes. Sure. No more, we will not mention the name— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Again. [LAUGHTER] So for the record, you did an interview with the Parker Foundation sometime in 2010. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I believe it was earlier. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Or possibly earlier. And some of the Parker Foundation videos, as we know, were lost. And so this video is an attempt to recapture some of the information that would have been in that oral history, but also add some other information, and also to give you a chance to talk about your involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. So just as a introduction to whoever views this in the future. So why don’t we start in the beginning? How did you come to—you’re not from the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Not originally. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: All right. How did you come to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, a little quick history, I got my bachelor’s degree at San Diego State College and then I was a radiation safety officer at San Diego State for about three years. Then I had an opportunity to go to the University of Colorado in Boulder, where, again, I was a radiation safety officer and on the faculty of the physics department. After several years there, an excellent opportunity came up for me here at Hanford with Battelle, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So I moved here in 1976, and had a great opportunity to work with many other more senior people here at Hanford that had been here since the beginning. One of those, of course, was Herbert M. Parker. He was former director of the laboratories under General Electric, and then retired, but stayed on with Battelle as a director. I had a few opportunities to interact with him, and was quite impressed. I have heard stories about, he was a rather demanding taskmaster. And I could kind of imagining myself trying to work for him, but it would have been a challenge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: What do you feel is important to be known about Herbert M. Parker for the historical record? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I’ve had an opportunity to review many of his publications. They were quite professional and very well researched, and in many cases the leading authority on several topics. So I was very impressed by his publications. I didn’t have a direct opportunity to work for him, so I don’t know about his management style or other things. But that was the thing that impressed me the most, was his publications. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: What topics did Dr. Parker write on—or do his research? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: His early professional career was in medical physics. He was at Swedish Hospital in Seattle for many years. Then he was called upon, as part of the Manhattan Project, to set up the safety program at Oak Ridge. He did that for about a year or so. Then he was called upon to do the same thing here at Hanford. So he came here and established the entire environmental safety and health program for Hanford. Of course he had all the right background to be able to do that, and he was able to recruit a number of really talented people to help him with that. So I think Hanford ended up with what could be known as the best environmental safety and health program, among all the early AEC and then DoE laboratories. One of the things that impressed me most by that program was the record keeping. And I had an opportunity to work on that in later years. But the way the record keeping was designed and set up and maintained was quite thorough. It was designed to be able to recreate whatever may have happened according to those records. It turned out to be very valuable in later years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Who instituted that record-keeping? Was that Parker? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I don’t recall the name of the individual that set it up, although I know Ken Hyde was involved very early on. He may have been at the very origin of it. But I’m sure Parker certainly influenced the rigor with which that program was established. In later years, John Jech was manager of the record keeping program, and then my good friend, Matt Lyon, was the manager of that. I worked with Matt, then, on American National Standard Institute’s standard for record keeping. We incorporated into that standard virtually all of the fundamentals that Parker had established initially. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: The first name was John— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: The second manager of records was John Jech. J-E-C-H. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Do you know if he’s still living? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: No, he’s not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: And what about Lyon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Matt Lyon passed away about ten years ago, as did Ken Hyde. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Ken Hyde—I think they all three passed away about ten years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah, give or take. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: So you mentioned that the record keeping was designed to recreate an incident as it happened. Do you know of any such—or can you speak to any such times when that record keeping system was crucial into a safety issue? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: The one that comes to mind is one of the more I guess infamous incidents here at Hanford. It occurred just around the time I arrived here in 1976. It was sometimes called the McCluskey accident out at the 231-Z Building. There was an explosion in a glovebox that resulted in very significant contamination of Mr. McCluskey by americium-241. And the response to that incident, and then all the following treatment of Mr. McCluskey was very well documented. In fact, those documents then became the basis for a whole series of scientific papers that described the entire incident and all the aspects of it. So that was one major case where excellent record keeping was very valuable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Excellent. And what—I’m just curious now—what happened to Mr. McCluskey? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: He survived for about ten years after the accident. He initially had very severe acid burns and trauma. But he was very carefully treated for that. The americium contamination that he had was gradually eliminated—not eliminated, but reduced substantially. He survived for another ten years after that incident even though he had heart trouble. I know several people that assisted in his care, and it was quite remarkable what they were able to do and what he was able to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. Did he ever go back to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: No, he was 65 at the time of the accident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: So he kind of went into medical retirement at that point. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Right. Yeah, I can imagine. So you said you came in 1976. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: And what did you—what was your first job, when you came to Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, I worked in what was called the radiation protection department, later called health physics department. My first assignment was called ALARA management. ALARA stands for maintain our radiation exposures as low as reasonably achievable. I would monitor the exposure records of Battelle workers, and watch for any that were the least bit unusually high, and then look for ways that we could reduce those exposures. And I monitored other things like average exposures and the use of dosimeters and things of that nature. The overall assignment was to generally reduce the workers’ radiation exposure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: How successful do you feel that the department was in that effort? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I think we were very successful, and it went on for many years, even after I had that assignment. I remember one time, looking at a report that DoE put out annually on radiation exposures over all the major DoE facilities. Those average exposures, highest individual exposures, and things of that nature. Battelle and Hanford had among the lowest averages of all the other DoE facilities. So, I believe it was a very effective ALARA program here at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Do you know if that report was ever made publically available? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah, those are published every year by DoE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, great. I’ll have to find that. Sorry, just scribbling down some notes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: At one point, Battelle had a contract with the DoE headquarters to actually do the production of that report each year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: And I was involved in the production of it—oh, three or four years, as I recall. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. So you mentioned that you had moved on out of that program or department, so what— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Right. Well, I started getting involved in management at kind of the bottom level. I was an associate section manager, and then I got an assignment as section manager for the radiation monitoring section. I was responsible for all the radiation monitors—or as they’re now called, radiation protection technologists—the radiation monitors for Battelle and two other of the contractors here at Hanford. It was kind of ironic that I was located in what used to be the 300 Area library, and my office was on the second floor. And my office was the former office of Herbert M. Parker, when he was director of laboratories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: It was an honor to have that space, and recall memories of Mr. Parker. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow, that’s great. And how long did you do that for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I did that two or three years, and then another opportunity came along in 1979—no actually, it was ’79, but I guess I’d been on that management job for about a year and a half. In September of ’79, which was about three months after the Three Mile Island accident, we had an opportunity to make a proposal to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to provide support for their staff in emergency planning work. At that time, NRC was making a big push on all the power plants, all the nuclear power plants across the country to enhance their emergency planning programs. So we began about a ten-year project with NRC to supplement their staff. The NRC established the requirement for annual emergency exercises at each of the nuclear power plants, where they had to work up a scenario, and then they would activate their emergency response staff to demonstrate that they would know how to handle that accident scenario. We served as observers. We had teams of observers with the NRC staff. We did a total of 800 of those exercises over a ten-year period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: So we had a lot of staff out there, doing a lot of travel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Yeah. So that would have been—so you said for power, would that have been for all of the power reactors in the United States? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yes. There were 103 plants at the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. Did you do any in foreign countries? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I didn’t personally, but we did have some staff that went to a similar kind of program with the International Atomic Energy Agency, and visited foreign nuclear power plants. Some in France, that I recall. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. So you said 103 power plants? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: In the US, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Actually, that was the number of reactors. There was a fewer number of plants, because many of them are two or more reactors at a site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay so the 103 is the number of reactors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I believe that’s correct. At that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: How did Chernobyl affect your field and your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: That’s an excellent question, because that was in this period. Of course, the Chernobyl accident happened in 1986, and I was working directly with NRC at that time. I was project manager on that NRC contract. When Chernobyl happened, there was an immediate reaction, and NRC had to study the Chernobyl accident as well as we could, and then determine what could be applied to US power reactors by way of improvements and emergency planning. One of my managers, Bill Bair, was part of a US delegation led by DoE and NRC to actually visit the Chernobyl area shortly after the accident, interact with the Russians, and do lessons learned that was turned into a series of DoE and NRC documents that tried to extract as much useful information as we could from Chernobyl and apply it here in the US. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Right, because if I’m not mistaken, the design of the Chernobyl reactor—there were reactors of similar design in the United States. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Not exactly. The Chernobyl reactor had no containment vessel. There were a few reactors in the US that also did not have containment vessels, but they had other safeguards. The N Reactor was one of those. Unfortunately, I would call it an overreaction of the US government to a reactor with no containment. Severe restrictions were put on N Reactor, and some re-design was required that ultimately led to the end of N Reactor. It’s interesting to note that at that point in time, which was about 1986, 1987, N Reactor had generated more electricity from a nuclear reactor than any other plant in the world. So it’s unfortunate it came to an early demise. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: And—sorry, my ignorance here on the technical aspects. You said some of them don’t have a containment vessel. What does a containment vessel look like and what role does it play, and why would there would be reactors with one and without one? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, N Reactor went back to the early—the late ‘50s, I believe when it was designed. It was designed similar to the other reactors here at Hanford that were intended for production of plutonium. But N Reactor was a dual purpose, in that it also generated 800 megawatts of electricity. But it had a similar kind of design to what you see out at B Plant, for example. So it didn’t have the same kind of containment vessel that other modern pressurized water reactors or other nuclear power plants have that is designed in such a way that if there is reactor core damage, any radioactivity released can be contained and not released. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Or released in a very controlled fashion. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I see. Kind of like a clam shell that kind of covers the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, it’s basically—yeah, in many cases a spherical kind of containment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. Excellent. So after—obviously the demise of N Reactor, ’86, ’87, is kind of the end of operations—or I should say of product production—product and energy production on the Hanford site. So how did your job change after that? And what did you continue to do after the shutdown? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I wasn’t directly affected by N Reactor shutting down. And the other production reactors had been shut down before that, so I wasn’t really directly involved in that. But I had yet another opportunity came up that turned out to be really a challenge for me. The Pantex plant in Amarillo, Texas is the primary assembly and disassembly facility for nuclear weapons. At that time, it was managed by a company called Mason and Hanger. Mason and Hanger had that contract for many years, and DoE challenged them to rebid the contract. So Mason and Hanger reached out to Battelle for assistance in teaming on environmental health and safety. So my manager talked me into being involved, so I went down to Amarillo and visited the plant and worked with the team there on the proposal that had to be presented to DoE. And we won the contract. Of course in the fine print it said I then had to move there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Ah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: But it turned out great. By that time, my family was pretty well grown, kids were through college. So we moved down to Amarillo, and I went to work at Pantex. We really enjoyed that. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Amarillo’s a very nice town, a lot of nice people. The work at Pantex was very challenging. I enjoyed that very much, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Great. So how long were you at the Pantex plant? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, I was manager of the radiation safety department down there for three years, which was my original contract obligation. During that time, we were very closely scrutinized by the Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board, which was an organization established by Congress to be a watchdog over DoE. Their method for watching DoE was to watch the contractors very closely. So they would scrutinize everything we did, and then challenge DoE if they found something. They pushed us in a way that was good, because one of the things they promoted was professional certification. I’m a certified health physicist, certified by the American Board of Health Physics. At the time at Pantex, I was the only one we had there. But the DNFSB pushed us to add more, so I got more of my staff certified. There was a similar program for technicians called the National Registry of Radiation Protection Technologists, and at the time, we had two of my staff that were registered with NRRPT. Again, they pushed us to promote more training. By the end of that three-year period, I think we had ten of our technologists registered and certified. So we really improved the credentials of our staff. We instituted some new programs, again, related to ALARA radiation reduction. Probably the most interesting or challenging day of my life occurred down there in 1994. We were working on disassembly of the W48 program. The W48 was a tactical weapon used in—that was deployed in Europe—it was never used. But it was a very small, cylindrical nuclear weapon designed to be shot out of a 155 millimeter howitzer, which is amazing just to think about. But the plutonium pit in this device was surrounded by high explosive. It turned out to be rather difficult to disassemble this particular design of nuclear weapon. It also turned out that the plutonium pit had a relatively high dose rate, compared to others. So the workers were getting some increased exposure to their hands in the process of working on this. So we were concerned about their extremity dose. So we worked up a method for doing a classified videotape of the disassembly operation, so that we could study each step in the process to find ways to improve worker safety. Providing shielding, remote tools, things of that nature. The process on this was to take the plutonium pit and high explosives and put it in liquid nitrogen bath for a period of time. Then bring it out and put it in a little tub-like, and pour hot water on it. The HE would expand rapidly and crack off. And for the most part, it worked very well. Well, there was this one particular pit that we were working on when we were doing the videotape for this study. Apparently the HE wasn’t coming off the way it should, and so they had to repeat this process over and over. They brought it out of the liquid nitrogen, poured hot water on it, and the plutonium—the cladding, the beryllium cladding on the plutonium pit actually cracked, due to the severe temperature change. The workers who were working on this were trained very carefully that if that cladding on the pit ever cracks, get out of there fast, so you avoid a plutonium exposure. So that happened. One of the technicians heard an audible crack and saw it on the surface of that pit. And they all evacuated immediately. They got just outside the door of this special facility, and they called our radiation safety office, and fortunately my three best technicians were standing there by the phone. They said, pit had cracked. And so they got over there as fast as they possibly could. They recognized the danger of having an exposed plutonium pit, and how that can oxidize and cause severe contamination very quickly. They decided to put on respirators to protect themselves, but they didn’t bother with any of the other protective clothing because they wanted to save time. So they made an entry where the cracked pit was, still there with the water bath on it, and the video shooting this picture. They took samples right on the crack and on the water and all around it. They managed to take that plutonium pit and get it into a plastic bag and then they doubled bagged it and then they triple bagged it and sealed it up. Then they came out. Of course, the samples revealed that there was indeed plutonium contamination coming out of that crack, but they had contained it very quickly. When we made a later entry to retrieve the video tape that was still running, and we looked at the timestamp on it. From the time the crack appeared until they had it in the bag was seven minutes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: That’s about as fast as you can possibly expect a response team to come in and secure a situation like that. And so, following that, of course we had the incident debriefing, and I had to chair that. But we very carefully went through and recorded every little thing that happened from the time they were working on the disassembly to the time they exited. Got that all documented, and then the videotape of course documented all of that. The scrutiny by Department of Energy, the Amarillo office, the Albuquerque office, Headquarters, any number of others—we had a lot of attention that day. It was a long, hard day at the office, but very exciting. Following that, we had to debrief many other investigation committees and others. But we had that videotape to rely on, and that just was invaluable. That’s my—that was probably the most exciting day of my life, down there. [LAUGHTER] Got a follow-up to that. That W48 weapon was designed by Livermore. They came in at a later time and did a post-mortem on that cracked pit. And when they did, we discovered that the amount of plutonium contamination there that was available for distribution had it not been contained, would have totally just made that facility useless. I mean, extremely expensive clean-up, if it ever got done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Not just the room, but the entire facility? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, mainly that room. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: That room. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: But it was a very big room, and a very valuable room, specially designed. But the quick response of our radiation safety technicians and getting that contained saved that room and millions of dollars in expense. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. And so this was a weapon that was the size of a howitzer shell? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: 155 millimeters. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. And what is the—I don’t know if you know this—but what’s the explosive power of that—is it—I guess it could be— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, it’s just like the atomic bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, about 20-kiloton fission device. The plutonium pit is designed to implode and cause a super-critical reaction. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: But fired out of a howitzer, instead of— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Fired out of a howitzer, perhaps 20 miles or something. And then you can somehow coordinate the careful detonation of this-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: --device. It boggled my mind. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I guess that’s best that that was never ever— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: There’s quite a large number of different nuclear weapons. Many of them were tactical weapons used in Europe—or deployed in Europe during the Cold War. Many other more modern ones are part of Polaris missiles and other large bombs that can be deployed by B-52s or B-2s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah. There’s quite a wide range of different models and designs. I didn’t know that at the time, but it’s fascinating. I remember one day standing in one of the disassembly rooms, and they had this nuclear weapon in a cradle standing there on the floor, and they had the top off of it. And I could just look down in the top of it. I couldn’t touch it, but I could look in there and just see the engineering in one of those things was just amazing. Just beyond belief. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I bet. I can only imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah. But I’ve gone off on this nuclear weapons story and departed from Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: It’s okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Maybe I should come back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I think that’s a very interesting story. I certainly—I’ve also, like I said, heard of plenty of bombs—ICBMs, missiles, but I’d never quite heard of a howitzer-type fired weapon. But also just the fact that your team and your field was able to prevent a really nasty incident is pretty amazing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: It speaks to your profession and your skill. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, like I mentioned, the professional credentials. Two of the three technicians who responded were certified by NNRPT. And they had the right kind of training, knew what to do, did it very well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I had an opportunity a year later to nominate them for a special DoE award for unusual—not heroism, but effective response. And they won the award that year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: That’s great. So how and when did you leave Pantex? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, the first time, was in ’96—no, I’m sorry, in ’93—and I had a special appointment back at DoE headquarters in Germantown. So I went back there for two years to work with the branch of DoE that was like an inspector general—the internal inspection branch, if you will. Very similar in scope to what the DNFSB—Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board—was doing. Scrutinizing all the DoE operations at the national labs and other facilities, and trying to always make improvements. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: So I worked with the DoE headquarters staff on many different audits that we did at other DoE labs. At the time, I specialized in dosimetry, both internal and external dosimetry, and other operational health physics parts of the program. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, I had a couple other interesting assignments in there. After DoE headquarters, then I went back to Pantex for three more years. And then another opportunity came up on an old facility near Cincinnati that needed to be decommissioned—decontaminated and decommissioned. And I went to Oak Ridge first, worked with the Foster Wheeler Company on the design of what became the largest radon control building that had ever been done. I was the radiation safety officer for that project at Oak Ridge in the design effort. And then we moved to Cincinnati for a year and I worked at the Fernald facility in actually building this radon control facility. What we were trying to deal with were these large concrete silos that contained residual ore material from the Second World War. They have to go back to—when the Manhattan Project was trying to bring together the necessary uranium in addition to the plutonium that was produced here at Hanford, they were using a rich pitch blend ore that was coming from what was then called Belgian Congo in Africa. It was shipped from there up the Saint Lawrence River to a facility near Niagara Falls. And then it ended up being processed to extract as much uranium as possible. But there were these residuals. They ended up in these concrete silos near Niagara Falls, New York as well as this Fernald facility, just outside of Cincinnati. So we had three big concrete silos that—I don’t recall—they must have been 80 feet in diameter and 50 feet high. So they held a lot of uranium ore residuals. It contained a fair amount of radium, which gave off radon gas. This facility was located not too far from a residential area. So it became a greater concern for getting it cleaned up. We put together this radon control facility that had these huge charcoal beds and you could pipe—you could take the head gas off of this silo, pipe it into these charcoal beds where the radon would be absorbed, and then the clean air would circulate. So you could fairly rapidly reduce the concentration of radon inside the silo to much lower levels. In the process, the charcoal beds got loaded up by absorbing radon. There came a point where you had to heat up that charcoal to drive off the captured radon. We devised a clever scheme with four different beds where we could kind of keep one of them recirculating on all times and have the other three working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: So you say drive off the captured radon, where would it be driven off? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Over to the next charcoal bed, which hadn’t yet been completely saturated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh! But then eventually you still have charcoal that— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: but it decays with a 3.8 day half-life, and that was built into the plan, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: But if it was to escape, right, it would get people very—it would contaminate or get people sick, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, it was pretty carefully designed not to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, but I’m saying that radon— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Oh, if it escaped from the silo. If there was no control of it—a certain amount of radon was escaping from the silo. For the most part, it’s a light gas, it just goes up and the wind blows it and disperses it. So it was very difficult to even measure anything offsite. But there was that concern there that we were dealing with. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: But if enough of it was released at once, then there might have been an issue? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Like if the whole roof of the silo was suddenly removed and it all came out, that could be a problem, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Interesting. I didn’t realize it had such a short half-life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah. So I did that, what amounted to ten years of offsite assignments. About that time, my wife and I got tired of moving. So we came back to the Tri-Cities, and our kids are here. I came back to work at Battelle for another few years before I retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: When did you come back to Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I came back in 2001. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay. So then you worked for—it says you retired in 2006. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I retired about four years later. And the last major project I worked on was also very interesting. It was the project for customs and border protection. It was to install radiation portal monitors at seaports. This was shortly after 9/11, and there was a concern about dirty bomb material being imported by any means. We had one part of the project dealt with seaport, another part airports, and a third part postal facilities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: So I worked on the seaports part, and I had the Port of Los Angeles was my assignment. Another one of us had Port of Long Beach, which is right next door, which are the largest seaports on the West Coast and have the largest number of shipping containers coming in. So we devised a method for monitoring those shipping containers as they were unloaded and making sure nothing was coming in that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Did—oh, sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Very interesting project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I don’t know if you can speak to this, but was anything caught by these monitors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yes. But not dirty bomb material. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Turns out they were so sensitive, they would detect any kind of elevated background radioactivity. For example, kitty litter is a little bit elevated in background. Any kind of stone product, and there are various granite and other stone products imported from different places. Those had a high enough background activity that they would trigger our monitors. So we would run all these containers through a set of monitors, and any that triggered that amount would then be sent over to a secondary monitor, where they’d examine it more carefully, verify what was actually in the containers, sometimes inspect them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: So recently our project staff got a tour of some of the facilities at HAMMER. And I believe we saw one of those monitors. Would that have been the same? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Mm-hm. Big yellow columns? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Yeah, that they run it through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yep, that was the one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: So you helped design— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: We helped design—oh, I didn’t really get involved in design. That was done by some real smart people out here at Battelle. But I was onsite trying to get them installed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: And tested. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. That’s really—that’s fascinating. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah, it was. I had a chance to do a lot of fun things when I worked at Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like maybe I need to go get a job over there. Maybe they need a traveling historian. So, where—what have you been doing since you retired? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, for about five years, I worked for Dade Moeller, which is kind of a spinoff company from Battelle. And they had a major contract with NIOSH—National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health—as part of an employee compensation program for radiation workers. Initially, the way this was set up was we got the actual radiation exposure records for former employees and examined their measured radiation exposure, and then did some other calculations that would tend to take into account anything else that they might have been exposed to but was somehow not measured on the dosimeter and many other factors to kind of add up their maximum possible radiation dose. And then that was compared—this is where it got a little complex. There are many different types of cancer that can be caused by radiation at a high enough level. Some types of cancer can be caused by a radiation level lower than some others. So it depended on what type of cancer the individual had as to which—how we measured their maximum possible radiation exposure to the likelihood that that cancer was caused by radiation. We did a careful calculation using probability and determined that if their cancer was at least 50% probable that it was caused by radiation, then they were granted an award. Well, we did that for several years in a very careful, scientific way that was well-documented. Then it became political. A lot of former workers, then, applied for another category within this overall compensation program that they called Special Exposure Cohort. Which meant that it didn’t matter how much radiation exposure they had, if they had the right type of cancer, they could get the award. And it’s kind of degenerated that way. But for many years, I think we did it right. I also had an opportunity to work on another part of that project where we did what we call the technical basis documents, where we reconstructed the history of how radiation exposure records were developed and maintained at each of these different sites. Every one varied a little bit. I did the one for the technical basis document for Pantex in Amarillo, because I was familiar with that. But I got to do several other interesting sites, one of which was Ames Laboratory in Ames, Iowa. Going there and interviewing some of these old-timers and looking at their old records, I found that there was a chemistry professor at what was then Iowa State University. He was called upon by the Manhattan Project in 1943 to help them improve their methods for extracting uranium metal. The old process that had been used by the Curies and other early scientists was really quite inefficient. But this professor developed a method used in a calcium catalyst that was very effective. He was able to purify uranium metal much quicker and in larger quantities. The story was that he would have to get on the train every Sunday afternoon and go to Chicago for the meeting with the Manhattan Project and report on the progress of his research and so on. One week after successfully isolating an ingot of uranium metal, he took it with him in his briefcase. Went into the meeting with Manhattan Project and clunked it on the desk, and passed it around. He said that this is a new method for producing substantial quantities of uranium metal. All the scientists around the table kind of poked at it and scratched it and so on and didn’t believe it was really uranium, but it was. And they finally decided that he had made a great breakthrough, so they sent him back to Iowa and said, make a lot more, fast. And he did. So he had the material they needed, then, for the Manhattan Project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Interesting story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Yeah, that’s really fascinating. So how did you become involved with the Parker Foundation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: About ten years ago—almost ten years ago—my friend Bill Bair and Ron Kathren and a couple others on the Parker Board invited me to participate. Matt Moeller was chairman of the board at that time—invited me to participate, and I just joined in, and found it very rewarding. I really appreciate what the Parker Board does in the memory of Herb Parker and in the sense of scholarships and other educational programs. So it’s a pleasure to contribute to that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Great, great. You moved in 1975 or ’76? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I moved here in ’76. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: ’76. And you mentioned children. Were your children born here, or did you move here with them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: My oldest daughter was born in San Diego, and my younger daughter was born in Boulder, Colorado. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: So they were six and eight, I think, when we moved here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: What were your impressions of Richland in the mid-70s when you moved? Did you live in Richland or did you--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: We did. Yeah, we lived just a few blocks from WSU here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: In North Richland. It was a very different community, but one that I came to know and respect. Because at that time, education was really paramount in the minds of parents and the school system. And my wife was a teacher. So we really took an interest in that. My kids got a really good education here in Richland. Went to Hanford High, and then did well in college. One of the main features of Richland at that time, I think, was a superior education program. Some of the other history of Richland with old government housing, and then we got a new house, and things like that are entirely different, but also very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: And is that what you kind of are meaning when you say it was a different community? I guess I’d like to unpack that a little bit more. How—in what ways was it different? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, a large part of Richland was originally government housing, and you only had to drive through town, you could see all the evidence of that. And then on the north side of Richland, they had opened up—beginning in 1965, I believe—development of newer private housing. We got here just in time to get in on a new house, and worked out fine for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Great. Was there—being next to a site that was primarily involved in product production, plutonium production—was there a different feeling about the Cold War in Richland per se than anywhere else you had lived in the United States at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: There definitely was different feelings about the Cold War and living anywhere near a nuclear power plant. I remember when we were working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission at many different reactor sites around the country. In many cases we would have public meetings to introduce the local folks to what we were trying to do to improve the emergency planning. There was a lot of concern about living anywhere near a nuclear power plant just a few years after TMI. I tried to explain to people how I live within 30 miles of nine nuclear power plants. But I understood radiation. I understood the risk, and I understood what could go wrong or how to deal with it. And it didn’t concern—didn’t bother me that much to live here. I found that to be generally true of a lot of people in Richland that were part—working at Hanford and were well-educated. They understood the risk and they could deal with it. Whereas many other people were just afraid. And I attribute that to what I call now about a 71-year deliberate misinformation program on the part of mass media to scare people about radiation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I like that. I’m writing it down. How do you feel that the—do you feel that the ending of the Cold War changed your work at all? I guess the reason why I ask— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: It did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: --these questions about the Cold War is because it was the impetus for much of the continued production of the material. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yeah. I was in Germany in 1988, just before the Berlin Wall came down. I was also there in Berlin in 1984, and we actually crossed through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin on a special tour. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: It was quite amazing. I was in Berlin for a meeting of the International Radiation Protection Association. I took my whole family; it was a tremendous adventure for them. But we were able to be part of a special US Army tour that went through Checkpoint Charlie. I think they did this once a week. And we had a little tour of East Berlin while it was still under the control of the USSR. We visited their Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and they had a little ceremonial changing the guard there. And we visited the square in Berlin where Hitler had burned the books that one night in 1939. And then we visited a huge Russian war memorial, and there was a building there where the Germans had surrendered in 1945. There was quite a story about that. But I was really impressed with this huge Russian war memorial. There were five mass graves that each held 100,000 soldiers. It was done in kind of the Russian style, with statues and other honorary symbols to clearly show their respect for the lives of all those soldiers. But that was an impressive sight. But I was there again in 1988 just before the Berlin Wall came down, and you could kind of see the end of the Cold War coming. So it was a great opportunity that I had, working for Battelle, being able to travel like that, and do many exciting things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Did you get to ever talk or meet with any of your counterparts on the Russian side? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: After the Cold War ended. And what was that like, to finally work with what had been considered the enemy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: It was quite unusual. I was scheduled to go to Russia a week after 9/11. It almost got canceled, but I managed to go. I was giving—they were having a conference for young scientists and trying to introduce them to international concepts of radiation safety. So I gave my paper and four others that we did to that group. It was located at what was the Russian equivalent of Los Alamos, their design facility. There weren’t very many Americans had been in there up to that point. So I was watched very closely. [LAUGHTER] And not allowed to see much, actually. But it was a very interesting exchange. The papers I was presenting were prepared in both English and Russian. And then we also did what they called a poster presentation, where we had a big poster with diagrams and everything—again translated to Russian. So we were able to put these up at this conference for these young scientists. They, I think, got a lot out of it because it was in their language so it was easy for them to understand. Working with an interpreter was a new experience for me. I would give this oral presentation, so I’d say one sentence and the pause. The interpreter would repeat that. I’d say the next sentence, and—kind of an awkward way to do an oral presentation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I can imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: But their hospitality was very good. This was in 2001. So the Cold War had been over for quite a few years. But we were trying to establish better relations. I think it was quite effective in doing that. I had another opportunity to work with Russian scientists on an NRC program, again where NRC was trying to provide training to their equivalent Russian inspectors for nuclear power plants and explain to them some of the ways that they did inspections, things they looked for, how they documented findings and things like that. We had four Russian inspectors and their interpreter come over from Moscow. I was their host in Washington, DC, and we worked with them there with the NRC headquarters for a week, providing training. And then we brought them out to Idaho to the Idaho National Lab, north of Idaho Falls, and went to a large hot cell facility at Idaho. A hot cell is where they have a heavily shielded enclosure with mechanical arms that do things on the inside. It was quite a sophisticated facility and somewhat unlike what the Russian counterparts were used to. But it was a good learning exercise for them. We kind of went through a demonstration of how we would do an inspection—a safety inspection. So, I had those kind of opportunities to interact with Russian scientists and found that very exciting. Very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Did you find that there was anything that you had learned from them at all? Or do you feel that the US was much more advanced in radiation protection and health physics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, I kept my ears open when I was talking to them, but they didn’t reveal much. [LAUGHTER] So, we didn’t pick up much that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: We were trying to help them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Right. Were you at Hanford during the Russian visit to Hanford when they toured the Plutonium Finishing Plant? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: No. That was after I retired, I think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay, just curious. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I heard about it of course. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I’m sure. That must have been a pretty big deal from the standpoint of both countries. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I think there’s one thing I remember from when I did this interview the first time that I wanted to mention. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I’ve been talking about all the varied experiences I had, and excellent opportunities over the years. But I think one of the perhaps most impressive things that I was able to do was to be able to hire several good people into my organization. I won’t mention names, but there were several that I call superstars that are now leaders in the field. I was able to bring them in right out of college or from another job, and hire several really good people that certainly enhanced our program, and then gave them great opportunities to grow and expand. Like I say, they’re now leaders in the field. That was one of the most rewarding parts of my job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: That’s great. Maybe you can give me their names off camera and we could contact them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I think they’re already on your list. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Oh, okay, good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: But I’ll do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Well, good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: We’ll do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: They should be. Tom, did you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Tom Hungate: No, I’m fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Emma, did you have anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Emma Rice: No, I’m fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Okay. Well, I think that’s it. Jerry, thank you so much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, that was fun. Did we stay on target? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I believe we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I wandered a little. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: That’s okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: There’s some stories there that might be interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: I think the stories help keep the oral histories—they have a human-centered focus and they’re interesting for people to watch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I hope so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: And I think there might be a couple things that merit some more research in there that personally, for me, I’d like to find out some more about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Especially the howitzer thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Hungate: One thing I’d just like to ask— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Hungate: You’ve been involved in a lot of things over a broad range of time and experiences and I just kind of wonder what you would feel is the one—maybe the item or two that you’ve worked on that will leave the most lasting impact? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: The most lasting impact. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Hungate: Or that you wished had been developed more that didn’t quite complete, you’d like to see more work done on it, it was either defunded or it was— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Well, I’m thinking of several different things now. I’ll just have to think it through. The work we did with NRC to improve emergency planning on nuclear power plants I think was very effective. And that’s still being maintained today. Work we did with DoE at Pantex on nuclear weapons. You mentioned the end of the Cold War, that’s when many of these tactical nuclear weapons in Europe were brought back and declared obsolete, and so we were doing a massive disassembly operation on those. I learned a lot about nuclear weapons and found it fascinating. We implemented some methods at Pantex that I think are still in use in the maintenance programs that they do now. But we were able to, I think, substantially improve on radiation safety at Pantex. Certainly to the point where we were finally blessed by DNFSB and DoE. I think the quality of that program has been maintained. There’s several other projects that I’ve worked on over the years, but I guess there’s no one thing that stands out that I would be concerned about that it was defunded or ended or somehow went downhill. I’m sure that’s happened, but I haven’t kept track of everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Being as nuclear power and nuclear weapons have different objectives, and you mentioned this retirement of a lot of nuclear weapons, do you feel that nuclear weapons still have a role to play in security— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: You do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Martin: Yes. Because the Russians still have a lot of them, China has some, the French and English have a few. It’s what I call the mutual deterrent, which is a term that’s been used. It just means that we don’t ever want to use one again, but if any one of those countries had some kind of an unbalanced advantage, it could be used. So if we have this mutual assured deterrence, it keeps that in balance. So it’s important to maintain that stockpile. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Interesting. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Hungate: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX244066500"> Franklin: Great. </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerome Martin Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02;33 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N reactor 300 Area B Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1976-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1976-2006 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kathren, Ron Bair, Bill M. Parker, Herbert Hyde, Ken Lyon, Matt Jech, John Moeller, Matt Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerome Martin Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerome Martin conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-29:Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/1/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region 300 Area B Plant Battelle (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) N Reactor Parker, Herb 1910-1984 Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1c41aaa490304c678bc3e8c1f2b697ee.jpg 4edca9efa5b020755d209c72f854cb83 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F08e2a82e15be87724cc35f3cc14a3127.mp4 b8689a451a342a533ee6e816848384f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerome Martin Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history with Jerome Martin on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Jerome Martin about his experiences working at the Hanford site and his involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. And you—just wanted to use your legal name to start out with, but you prefer to be called Jerry, right? Jerome Martin: Yes, I do. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Jerome’s a little too formal. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Just for the technical purposes. Sure. No more, we will not mention the name— Martin: Okay. Franklin: Again. [LAUGHTER] So for the record, you did an interview with the Parker Foundation sometime in 2010. Martin: I believe it was earlier. Franklin: Or possibly earlier. And some of the Parker Foundation videos, as we know, were lost. And so this video is an attempt to recapture some of the information that would have been in that oral history, but also add some other information, and also to give you a chance to talk about your involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. So just as a introduction to whoever views this in the future. So why don’t we start in the beginning? How did you come to—you’re not from the Tri-Cities? Martin: Not originally. Franklin: All right. How did you come to the Tri-Cities? Martin: Well, a little quick history, I got my bachelor’s degree at San Diego State College and then I was a radiation safety officer at San Diego State for about three years. Then I had an opportunity to go to the University of Colorado in Boulder, where, again, I was a radiation safety officer and on the faculty of the physics department. After several years there, an excellent opportunity came up for me here at Hanford with Battelle, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So I moved here in 1976, and had a great opportunity to work with many other more senior people here at Hanford that had been here since the beginning. One of those, of course, was Herbert M. Parker. He was former director of the laboratories under General Electric, and then retired, but stayed on with Battelle as a director. I had a few opportunities to interact with him, and was quite impressed. I have heard stories about, he was a rather demanding taskmaster. And I could kind of imagining myself trying to work for him, but it would have been a challenge. Franklin: What do you feel is important to be known about Herbert M. Parker for the historical record? Martin: I’ve had an opportunity to review many of his publications. They were quite professional and very well researched, and in many cases the leading authority on several topics. So I was very impressed by his publications. I didn’t have a direct opportunity to work for him, so I don’t know about his management style or other things. But that was the thing that impressed me the most, was his publications. Franklin: What topics did Dr. Parker write on—or do his research? Martin: His early professional career was in medical physics. He was at Swedish Hospital in Seattle for many years. Then he was called upon, as part of the Manhattan Project, to set up the safety program at Oak Ridge. He did that for about a year or so. Then he was called upon to do the same thing here at Hanford. So he came here and established the entire environmental safety and health program for Hanford. Of course he had all the right background to be able to do that, and he was able to recruit a number of really talented people to help him with that. So I think Hanford ended up with what could be known as the best environmental safety and health program, among all the early AEC and then DoE laboratories. One of the things that impressed me most by that program was the record keeping. And I had an opportunity to work on that in later years. But the way the record keeping was designed and set up and maintained was quite thorough. It was designed to be able to recreate whatever may have happened according to those records. It turned out to be very valuable in later years. Franklin: Who instituted that record-keeping? Was that Parker? Martin: I don’t recall the name of the individual that set it up, although I know Ken Hyde was involved very early on. He may have been at the very origin of it. But I’m sure Parker certainly influenced the rigor with which that program was established. In later years, John Jech was manager of the record keeping program, and then my good friend, Matt Lyon, was the manager of that. I worked with Matt, then, on American National Standard Institute’s standard for record keeping. We incorporated into that standard virtually all of the fundamentals that Parker had established initially. Franklin: The first name was John— Martin: The second manager of records was John Jech. J-E-C-H. Franklin: Do you know if he’s still living? Martin: No, he’s not. Franklin: And what about Lyon? Martin: Matt Lyon passed away about ten years ago, as did Ken Hyde. Franklin: What’s that? Martin: Ken Hyde—I think they all three passed away about ten years ago. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Yeah, give or take. Franklin: So you mentioned that the record keeping was designed to recreate an incident as it happened. Do you know of any such—or can you speak to any such times when that record keeping system was crucial into a safety issue? Martin: The one that comes to mind is one of the more I guess infamous incidents here at Hanford. It occurred just around the time I arrived here in 1976. It was sometimes called the McCluskey accident out at the 231-Z Building. There was an explosion in a glovebox that resulted in very significant contamination of Mr. McCluskey by americium-241. And the response to that incident, and then all the following treatment of Mr. McCluskey was very well documented. In fact, those documents then became the basis for a whole series of scientific papers that described the entire incident and all the aspects of it. So that was one major case where excellent record keeping was very valuable. Franklin: Excellent. And what—I’m just curious now—what happened to Mr. McCluskey? Martin: He survived for about ten years after the accident. He initially had very severe acid burns and trauma. But he was very carefully treated for that. The americium contamination that he had was gradually eliminated—not eliminated, but reduced substantially. He survived for another ten years after that incident even though he had heart trouble. I know several people that assisted in his care, and it was quite remarkable what they were able to do and what he was able to do. Franklin: Wow. Did he ever go back to work? Martin: No, he was 65 at the time of the accident. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: So he kind of went into medical retirement at that point. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Yeah, I can imagine. So you said you came in 1976. Martin: Right. Franklin: And what did you—what was your first job, when you came to Battelle? Martin: Well, I worked in what was called the radiation protection department, later called health physics department. My first assignment was called ALARA management. ALARA stands for maintain our radiation exposures as low as reasonably achievable. I would monitor the exposure records of Battelle workers, and watch for any that were the least bit unusually high, and then look for ways that we could reduce those exposures. And I monitored other things like average exposures and the use of dosimeters and things of that nature. The overall assignment was to generally reduce the workers’ radiation exposure. Franklin: How successful do you feel that the department was in that effort? Martin: I think we were very successful, and it went on for many years, even after I had that assignment. I remember one time, looking at a report that DoE put out annually on radiation exposures over all the major DoE facilities. Those average exposures, highest individual exposures, and things of that nature. Battelle and Hanford had among the lowest averages of all the other DoE facilities. So, I believe it was a very effective ALARA program here at Hanford. Franklin: Do you know if that report was ever made publically available? Martin: Oh, yes. Franklin: Oh. Martin: Yeah, those are published every year by DoE. Franklin: Oh, great. I’ll have to find that. Sorry, just scribbling down some notes. Martin: At one point, Battelle had a contract with the DoE headquarters to actually do the production of that report each year. Franklin: Okay. Martin: And I was involved in the production of it—oh, three or four years, as I recall. Franklin: Okay. So you mentioned that you had moved on out of that program or department, so what— Martin: Right. Well, I started getting involved in management at kind of the bottom level. I was an associate section manager, and then I got an assignment as section manager for the radiation monitoring section. I was responsible for all the radiation monitors—or as they’re now called, radiation protection technologists—the radiation monitors for Battelle and two other of the contractors here at Hanford. It was kind of ironic that I was located in what used to be the 300 Area library, and my office was on the second floor. And my office was the former office of Herbert M. Parker, when he was director of laboratories. Franklin: Wow! Martin: It was an honor to have that space, and recall memories of Mr. Parker. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. And how long did you do that for? Martin: I did that two or three years, and then another opportunity came along in 1979—no actually, it was ’79, but I guess I’d been on that management job for about a year and a half. In September of ’79, which was about three months after the Three Mile Island accident, we had an opportunity to make a proposal to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to provide support for their staff in emergency planning work. At that time, NRC was making a big push on all the power plants, all the nuclear power plants across the country to enhance their emergency planning programs. So we began about a ten-year project with NRC to supplement their staff. The NRC established the requirement for annual emergency exercises at each of the nuclear power plants, where they had to work up a scenario, and then they would activate their emergency response staff to demonstrate that they would know how to handle that accident scenario. We served as observers. We had teams of observers with the NRC staff. We did a total of 800 of those exercises over a ten-year period. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So we had a lot of staff out there, doing a lot of travel. Franklin: Yeah. So that would have been—so you said for power, would that have been for all of the power reactors in the United States? Martin: Yes. There were 103 plants at the time. Franklin: Wow. Did you do any in foreign countries? Martin: I didn’t personally, but we did have some staff that went to a similar kind of program with the International Atomic Energy Agency, and visited foreign nuclear power plants. Some in France, that I recall. Franklin: Wow. So you said 103 power plants? Martin: In the US, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Actually, that was the number of reactors. There was a fewer number of plants, because many of them are two or more reactors at a site. Franklin: Oh, okay so the 103 is the number of reactors? Martin: I believe that’s correct. At that time. Franklin: How did Chernobyl affect your field and your work? Martin: That’s an excellent question, because that was in this period. Of course, the Chernobyl accident happened in 1986, and I was working directly with NRC at that time. I was project manager on that NRC contract. When Chernobyl happened, there was an immediate reaction, and NRC had to study the Chernobyl accident as well as we could, and then determine what could be applied to US power reactors by way of improvements and emergency planning. One of my managers, Bill Bair, was part of a US delegation led by DoE and NRC to actually visit the Chernobyl area shortly after the accident, interact with the Russians, and do lessons learned that was turned into a series of DoE and NRC documents that tried to extract as much useful information as we could from Chernobyl and apply it here in the US. Franklin: Right, because if I’m not mistaken, the design of the Chernobyl reactor—there were reactors of similar design in the United States. Martin: Not exactly. The Chernobyl reactor had no containment vessel. There were a few reactors in the US that also did not have containment vessels, but they had other safeguards. The N Reactor was one of those. Unfortunately, I would call it an overreaction of the US government to a reactor with no containment. Severe restrictions were put on N Reactor, and some re-design was required that ultimately led to the end of N Reactor. It’s interesting to note that at that point in time, which was about 1986, 1987, N Reactor had generated more electricity from a nuclear reactor than any other plant in the world. So it’s unfortunate it came to an early demise. Franklin: And—sorry, my ignorance here on the technical aspects. You said some of them don’t have a containment vessel. What does a containment vessel look like and what role does it play, and why would there would be reactors with one and without one? Martin: Well, N Reactor went back to the early—the late ‘50s, I believe when it was designed. It was designed similar to the other reactors here at Hanford that were intended for production of plutonium. But N Reactor was a dual purpose, in that it also generated 800 megawatts of electricity. But it had a similar kind of design to what you see out at B Plant, for example. So it didn’t have the same kind of containment vessel that other modern pressurized water reactors or other nuclear power plants have that is designed in such a way that if there is reactor core damage, any radioactivity released can be contained and not released. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Or released in a very controlled fashion. Franklin: I see. Kind of like a clam shell that kind of covers the— Martin: Well, it’s basically—yeah, in many cases a spherical kind of containment. Franklin: Okay. Excellent. So after—obviously the demise of N Reactor, ’86, ’87, is kind of the end of operations—or I should say of product production—product and energy production on the Hanford site. So how did your job change after that? And what did you continue to do after the shutdown? Martin: I wasn’t directly affected by N Reactor shutting down. And the other production reactors had been shut down before that, so I wasn’t really directly involved in that. But I had yet another opportunity came up that turned out to be really a challenge for me. The Pantex plant in Amarillo, Texas is the primary assembly and disassembly facility for nuclear weapons. At that time, it was managed by a company called Mason and Hanger. Mason and Hanger had that contract for many years, and DoE challenged them to rebid the contract. So Mason and Hanger reached out to Battelle for assistance in teaming on environmental health and safety. So my manager talked me into being involved, so I went down to Amarillo and visited the plant and worked with the team there on the proposal that had to be presented to DoE. And we won the contract. Of course in the fine print it said I then had to move there. Franklin: Ah! Martin: But it turned out great. By that time, my family was pretty well grown, kids were through college. So we moved down to Amarillo, and I went to work at Pantex. We really enjoyed that. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Amarillo’s a very nice town, a lot of nice people. The work at Pantex was very challenging. I enjoyed that very much, too. Franklin: Great. So how long were you at the Pantex plant? Martin: Well, I was manager of the radiation safety department down there for three years, which was my original contract obligation. During that time, we were very closely scrutinized by the Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board, which was an organization established by Congress to be a watchdog over DoE. Their method for watching DoE was to watch the contractors very closely. So they would scrutinize everything we did, and then challenge DoE if they found something. They pushed us in a way that was good, because one of the things they promoted was professional certification. I’m a certified health physicist, certified by the American Board of Health Physics. At the time at Pantex, I was the only one we had there. But the DNFSB pushed us to add more, so I got more of my staff certified. There was a similar program for technicians called the National Registry of Radiation Protection Technologists, and at the time, we had two of my staff that were registered with NRRPT. Again, they pushed us to promote more training. By the end of that three-year period, I think we had ten of our technologists registered and certified. So we really improved the credentials of our staff. We instituted some new programs, again, related to ALARA radiation reduction. Probably the most interesting or challenging day of my life occurred down there in 1994. We were working on disassembly of the W48 program. The W48 was a tactical weapon used in—that was deployed in Europe—it was never used. But it was a very small, cylindrical nuclear weapon designed to be shot out of a 155 millimeter howitzer, which is amazing just to think about. But the plutonium pit in this device was surrounded by high explosive. It turned out to be rather difficult to disassemble this particular design of nuclear weapon. It also turned out that the plutonium pit had a relatively high dose rate, compared to others. So the workers were getting some increased exposure to their hands in the process of working on this. So we were concerned about their extremity dose. So we worked up a method for doing a classified videotape of the disassembly operation, so that we could study each step in the process to find ways to improve worker safety. Providing shielding, remote tools, things of that nature. The process on this was to take the plutonium pit and high explosives and put it in liquid nitrogen bath for a period of time. Then bring it out and put it in a little tub-like, and pour hot water on it. The HE would expand rapidly and crack off. And for the most part, it worked very well. Well, there was this one particular pit that we were working on when we were doing the videotape for this study. Apparently the HE wasn’t coming off the way it should, and so they had to repeat this process over and over. They brought it out of the liquid nitrogen, poured hot water on it, and the plutonium—the cladding, the beryllium cladding on the plutonium pit actually cracked, due to the severe temperature change. The workers who were working on this were trained very carefully that if that cladding on the pit ever cracks, get out of there fast, so you avoid a plutonium exposure. So that happened. One of the technicians heard an audible crack and saw it on the surface of that pit. And they all evacuated immediately. They got just outside the door of this special facility, and they called our radiation safety office, and fortunately my three best technicians were standing there by the phone. They said, pit had cracked. And so they got over there as fast as they possibly could. They recognized the danger of having an exposed plutonium pit, and how that can oxidize and cause severe contamination very quickly. They decided to put on respirators to protect themselves, but they didn’t bother with any of the other protective clothing because they wanted to save time. So they made an entry where the cracked pit was, still there with the water bath on it, and the video shooting this picture. They took samples right on the crack and on the water and all around it. They managed to take that plutonium pit and get it into a plastic bag and then they doubled bagged it and then they triple bagged it and sealed it up. Then they came out. Of course, the samples revealed that there was indeed plutonium contamination coming out of that crack, but they had contained it very quickly. When we made a later entry to retrieve the video tape that was still running, and we looked at the timestamp on it. From the time the crack appeared until they had it in the bag was seven minutes. Franklin: Wow! Martin: That’s about as fast as you can possibly expect a response team to come in and secure a situation like that. And so, following that, of course we had the incident debriefing, and I had to chair that. But we very carefully went through and recorded every little thing that happened from the time they were working on the disassembly to the time they exited. Got that all documented, and then the videotape of course documented all of that. The scrutiny by Department of Energy, the Amarillo office, the Albuquerque office, Headquarters, any number of others—we had a lot of attention that day. It was a long, hard day at the office, but very exciting. Following that, we had to debrief many other investigation committees and others. But we had that videotape to rely on, and that just was invaluable. That’s my—that was probably the most exciting day of my life, down there. [LAUGHTER] Got a follow-up to that. That W48 weapon was designed by Livermore. They came in at a later time and did a post-mortem on that cracked pit. And when they did, we discovered that the amount of plutonium contamination there that was available for distribution had it not been contained, would have totally just made that facility useless. I mean, extremely expensive clean-up, if it ever got done. Franklin: Not just the room, but the entire facility? Martin: Well, mainly that room. Franklin: That room. Martin: But it was a very big room, and a very valuable room, specially designed. But the quick response of our radiation safety technicians and getting that contained saved that room and millions of dollars in expense. Franklin: Wow. And so this was a weapon that was the size of a howitzer shell? Martin: 155 millimeters. Franklin: Wow. And what is the—I don’t know if you know this—but what’s the explosive power of that—is it—I guess it could be— Martin: Well, it’s just like the atomic bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, about 20-kiloton fission device. The plutonium pit is designed to implode and cause a super-critical reaction. Franklin: But fired out of a howitzer, instead of— Martin: Fired out of a howitzer, perhaps 20 miles or something. And then you can somehow coordinate the careful detonation of this-- Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Martin: --device. It boggled my mind. Franklin: I guess that’s best that that was never ever— Martin: There’s quite a large number of different nuclear weapons. Many of them were tactical weapons used in Europe—or deployed in Europe during the Cold War. Many other more modern ones are part of Polaris missiles and other large bombs that can be deployed by B-52s or B-2s. Franklin: Sure. Martin: Yeah. There’s quite a wide range of different models and designs. I didn’t know that at the time, but it’s fascinating. I remember one day standing in one of the disassembly rooms, and they had this nuclear weapon in a cradle standing there on the floor, and they had the top off of it. And I could just look down in the top of it. I couldn’t touch it, but I could look in there and just see the engineering in one of those things was just amazing. Just beyond belief. Franklin: I bet. I can only imagine. Martin: Yeah. But I’ve gone off on this nuclear weapons story and departed from Hanford. Franklin: It’s okay. Martin: Maybe I should come back. Franklin: I think that’s a very interesting story. I certainly—I’ve also, like I said, heard of plenty of bombs—ICBMs, missiles, but I’d never quite heard of a howitzer-type fired weapon. But also just the fact that your team and your field was able to prevent a really nasty incident is pretty amazing. Martin: Right. Franklin: It speaks to your profession and your skill. Martin: Well, like I mentioned, the professional credentials. Two of the three technicians who responded were certified by NNRPT. And they had the right kind of training, knew what to do, did it very well. Franklin: Great. Martin: I had an opportunity a year later to nominate them for a special DoE award for unusual—not heroism, but effective response. And they won the award that year. Franklin: That’s great. So how and when did you leave Pantex? Martin: Well, the first time, was in ’96—no, I’m sorry, in ’93—and I had a special appointment back at DoE headquarters in Germantown. So I went back there for two years to work with the branch of DoE that was like an inspector general—the internal inspection branch, if you will. Very similar in scope to what the DNFSB—Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board—was doing. Scrutinizing all the DoE operations at the national labs and other facilities, and trying to always make improvements. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So I worked with the DoE headquarters staff on many different audits that we did at other DoE labs. At the time, I specialized in dosimetry, both internal and external dosimetry, and other operational health physics parts of the program. Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Tri-Cities? Martin: Well, I had a couple other interesting assignments in there. After DoE headquarters, then I went back to Pantex for three more years. And then another opportunity came up on an old facility near Cincinnati that needed to be decommissioned—decontaminated and decommissioned. And I went to Oak Ridge first, worked with the Foster Wheeler Company on the design of what became the largest radon control building that had ever been done. I was the radiation safety officer for that project at Oak Ridge in the design effort. And then we moved to Cincinnati for a year and I worked at the Fernald facility in actually building this radon control facility. What we were trying to deal with were these large concrete silos that contained residual ore material from the Second World War. They have to go back to—when the Manhattan Project was trying to bring together the necessary uranium in addition to the plutonium that was produced here at Hanford, they were using a rich pitch blend ore that was coming from what was then called Belgian Congo in Africa. It was shipped from there up the Saint Lawrence River to a facility near Niagara Falls. And then it ended up being processed to extract as much uranium as possible. But there were these residuals. They ended up in these concrete silos near Niagara Falls, New York as well as this Fernald facility, just outside of Cincinnati. So we had three big concrete silos that—I don’t recall—they must have been 80 feet in diameter and 50 feet high. So they held a lot of uranium ore residuals. It contained a fair amount of radium, which gave off radon gas. This facility was located not too far from a residential area. So it became a greater concern for getting it cleaned up. We put together this radon control facility that had these huge charcoal beds and you could pipe—you could take the head gas off of this silo, pipe it into these charcoal beds where the radon would be absorbed, and then the clean air would circulate. So you could fairly rapidly reduce the concentration of radon inside the silo to much lower levels. In the process, the charcoal beds got loaded up by absorbing radon. There came a point where you had to heat up that charcoal to drive off the captured radon. We devised a clever scheme with four different beds where we could kind of keep one of them recirculating on all times and have the other three working. Franklin: So you say drive off the captured radon, where would it be driven off? Martin: Over to the next charcoal bed, which hadn’t yet been completely saturated. Franklin: Oh! But then eventually you still have charcoal that— Martin: but it decays with a 3.8 day half-life, and that was built into the plan, too. Franklin: Oh! Martin: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: But if it was to escape, right, it would get people very—it would contaminate or get people sick, or--? Martin: Well, it was pretty carefully designed not to— Franklin: Oh, but I’m saying that radon— Martin: Oh, if it escaped from the silo. If there was no control of it—a certain amount of radon was escaping from the silo. For the most part, it’s a light gas, it just goes up and the wind blows it and disperses it. So it was very difficult to even measure anything offsite. But there was that concern there that we were dealing with. Franklin: But if enough of it was released at once, then there might have been an issue? Martin: Like if the whole roof of the silo was suddenly removed and it all came out, that could be a problem, yeah. Franklin: Interesting. I didn’t realize it had such a short half-life. Martin: Yeah. So I did that, what amounted to ten years of offsite assignments. About that time, my wife and I got tired of moving. So we came back to the Tri-Cities, and our kids are here. I came back to work at Battelle for another few years before I retired. Franklin: When did you come back to Battelle? Martin: I came back in 2001. Franklin: Oh, okay. So then you worked for—it says you retired in 2006. Martin: I retired about four years later. And the last major project I worked on was also very interesting. It was the project for customs and border protection. It was to install radiation portal monitors at seaports. This was shortly after 9/11, and there was a concern about dirty bomb material being imported by any means. We had one part of the project dealt with seaport, another part airports, and a third part postal facilities. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So I worked on the seaports part, and I had the Port of Los Angeles was my assignment. Another one of us had Port of Long Beach, which is right next door, which are the largest seaports on the West Coast and have the largest number of shipping containers coming in. So we devised a method for monitoring those shipping containers as they were unloaded and making sure nothing was coming in that way. Franklin: Did—oh, sorry. Martin: Very interesting project. Franklin: I don’t know if you can speak to this, but was anything caught by these monitors? Martin: Yes. But not dirty bomb material. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: Turns out they were so sensitive, they would detect any kind of elevated background radioactivity. For example, kitty litter is a little bit elevated in background. Any kind of stone product, and there are various granite and other stone products imported from different places. Those had a high enough background activity that they would trigger our monitors. So we would run all these containers through a set of monitors, and any that triggered that amount would then be sent over to a secondary monitor, where they’d examine it more carefully, verify what was actually in the containers, sometimes inspect them. Franklin: So recently our project staff got a tour of some of the facilities at HAMMER. And I believe we saw one of those monitors. Would that have been the same? Martin: Mm-hm. Big yellow columns? Franklin: Yeah, that they run it through. Martin: Yep, that was the one. Franklin: So you helped design— Martin: We helped design—oh, I didn’t really get involved in design. That was done by some real smart people out here at Battelle. But I was onsite trying to get them installed. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: And tested. Franklin: Wow. That’s really—that’s fascinating. Martin: Yeah, it was. I had a chance to do a lot of fun things when I worked at Battelle. Franklin: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like maybe I need to go get a job over there. Maybe they need a traveling historian. So, where—what have you been doing since you retired? Martin: Well, for about five years, I worked for Dade Moeller, which is kind of a spinoff company from Battelle. And they had a major contract with NIOSH—National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health—as part of an employee compensation program for radiation workers. Initially, the way this was set up was we got the actual radiation exposure records for former employees and examined their measured radiation exposure, and then did some other calculations that would tend to take into account anything else that they might have been exposed to but was somehow not measured on the dosimeter and many other factors to kind of add up their maximum possible radiation dose. And then that was compared—this is where it got a little complex. There are many different types of cancer that can be caused by radiation at a high enough level. Some types of cancer can be caused by a radiation level lower than some others. So it depended on what type of cancer the individual had as to which—how we measured their maximum possible radiation exposure to the likelihood that that cancer was caused by radiation. We did a careful calculation using probability and determined that if their cancer was at least 50% probable that it was caused by radiation, then they were granted an award. Well, we did that for several years in a very careful, scientific way that was well-documented. Then it became political. A lot of former workers, then, applied for another category within this overall compensation program that they called Special Exposure Cohort. Which meant that it didn’t matter how much radiation exposure they had, if they had the right type of cancer, they could get the award. And it’s kind of degenerated that way. But for many years, I think we did it right. I also had an opportunity to work on another part of that project where we did what we call the technical basis documents, where we reconstructed the history of how radiation exposure records were developed and maintained at each of these different sites. Every one varied a little bit. I did the one for the technical basis document for Pantex in Amarillo, because I was familiar with that. But I got to do several other interesting sites, one of which was Ames Laboratory in Ames, Iowa. Going there and interviewing some of these old-timers and looking at their old records, I found that there was a chemistry professor at what was then Iowa State University. He was called upon by the Manhattan Project in 1943 to help them improve their methods for extracting uranium metal. The old process that had been used by the Curies and other early scientists was really quite inefficient. But this professor developed a method used in a calcium catalyst that was very effective. He was able to purify uranium metal much quicker and in larger quantities. The story was that he would have to get on the train every Sunday afternoon and go to Chicago for the meeting with the Manhattan Project and report on the progress of his research and so on. One week after successfully isolating an ingot of uranium metal, he took it with him in his briefcase. Went into the meeting with Manhattan Project and clunked it on the desk, and passed it around. He said that this is a new method for producing substantial quantities of uranium metal. All the scientists around the table kind of poked at it and scratched it and so on and didn’t believe it was really uranium, but it was. And they finally decided that he had made a great breakthrough, so they sent him back to Iowa and said, make a lot more, fast. And he did. So he had the material they needed, then, for the Manhattan Project. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Interesting story. Franklin: Yeah, that’s really fascinating. So how did you become involved with the Parker Foundation? Martin: About ten years ago—almost ten years ago—my friend Bill Bair and Ron Kathren and a couple others on the Parker Board invited me to participate. Matt Moeller was chairman of the board at that time—invited me to participate, and I just joined in, and found it very rewarding. I really appreciate what the Parker Board does in the memory of Herb Parker and in the sense of scholarships and other educational programs. So it’s a pleasure to contribute to that. Franklin: Great, great. You moved in 1975 or ’76? Martin: I moved here in ’76. Franklin: ’76. And you mentioned children. Were your children born here, or did you move here with them? Martin: My oldest daughter was born in San Diego, and my younger daughter was born in Boulder, Colorado. Franklin: Okay. Martin: So they were six and eight, I think, when we moved here. Franklin: What were your impressions of Richland in the mid-70s when you moved? Did you live in Richland or did you--? Martin: We did. Yeah, we lived just a few blocks from WSU here. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: In North Richland. It was a very different community, but one that I came to know and respect. Because at that time, education was really paramount in the minds of parents and the school system. And my wife was a teacher. So we really took an interest in that. My kids got a really good education here in Richland. Went to Hanford High, and then did well in college. One of the main features of Richland at that time, I think, was a superior education program. Some of the other history of Richland with old government housing, and then we got a new house, and things like that are entirely different, but also very interesting. Franklin: And is that what you kind of are meaning when you say it was a different community? I guess I’d like to unpack that a little bit more. How—in what ways was it different? Martin: Well, a large part of Richland was originally government housing, and you only had to drive through town, you could see all the evidence of that. And then on the north side of Richland, they had opened up—beginning in 1965, I believe—development of newer private housing. We got here just in time to get in on a new house, and worked out fine for us. Franklin: Great. Was there—being next to a site that was primarily involved in product production, plutonium production—was there a different feeling about the Cold War in Richland per se than anywhere else you had lived in the United States at that time? Martin: There definitely was different feelings about the Cold War and living anywhere near a nuclear power plant. I remember when we were working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission at many different reactor sites around the country. In many cases we would have public meetings to introduce the local folks to what we were trying to do to improve the emergency planning. There was a lot of concern about living anywhere near a nuclear power plant just a few years after TMI. I tried to explain to people how I live within 30 miles of nine nuclear power plants. But I understood radiation. I understood the risk, and I understood what could go wrong or how to deal with it. And it didn’t concern—didn’t bother me that much to live here. I found that to be generally true of a lot of people in Richland that were part—working at Hanford and were well-educated. They understood the risk and they could deal with it. Whereas many other people were just afraid. And I attribute that to what I call now about a 71-year deliberate misinformation program on the part of mass media to scare people about radiation. Franklin: I like that. I’m writing it down. How do you feel that the—do you feel that the ending of the Cold War changed your work at all? I guess the reason why I ask— Martin: It did. Franklin: --these questions about the Cold War is because it was the impetus for much of the continued production of the material. Martin: Yeah. I was in Germany in 1988, just before the Berlin Wall came down. I was also there in Berlin in 1984, and we actually crossed through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin on a special tour. Franklin: Really? Martin: It was quite amazing. I was in Berlin for a meeting of the International Radiation Protection Association. I took my whole family; it was a tremendous adventure for them. But we were able to be part of a special US Army tour that went through Checkpoint Charlie. I think they did this once a week. And we had a little tour of East Berlin while it was still under the control of the USSR. We visited their Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and they had a little ceremonial changing the guard there. And we visited the square in Berlin where Hitler had burned the books that one night in 1939. And then we visited a huge Russian war memorial, and there was a building there where the Germans had surrendered in 1945. There was quite a story about that. But I was really impressed with this huge Russian war memorial. There were five mass graves that each held 100,000 soldiers. It was done in kind of the Russian style, with statues and other honorary symbols to clearly show their respect for the lives of all those soldiers. But that was an impressive sight. But I was there again in 1988 just before the Berlin Wall came down, and you could kind of see the end of the Cold War coming. So it was a great opportunity that I had, working for Battelle, being able to travel like that, and do many exciting things. Franklin: Did you get to ever talk or meet with any of your counterparts on the Russian side? Martin: Yes. Franklin: After the Cold War ended. And what was that like, to finally work with what had been considered the enemy? Martin: It was quite unusual. I was scheduled to go to Russia a week after 9/11. It almost got canceled, but I managed to go. I was giving—they were having a conference for young scientists and trying to introduce them to international concepts of radiation safety. So I gave my paper and four others that we did to that group. It was located at what was the Russian equivalent of Los Alamos, their design facility. There weren’t very many Americans had been in there up to that point. So I was watched very closely. [LAUGHTER] And not allowed to see much, actually. But it was a very interesting exchange. The papers I was presenting were prepared in both English and Russian. And then we also did what they called a poster presentation, where we had a big poster with diagrams and everything—again translated to Russian. So we were able to put these up at this conference for these young scientists. They, I think, got a lot out of it because it was in their language so it was easy for them to understand. Working with an interpreter was a new experience for me. I would give this oral presentation, so I’d say one sentence and the pause. The interpreter would repeat that. I’d say the next sentence, and—kind of an awkward way to do an oral presentation. Franklin: I can imagine. Martin: But their hospitality was very good. This was in 2001. So the Cold War had been over for quite a few years. But we were trying to establish better relations. I think it was quite effective in doing that. I had another opportunity to work with Russian scientists on an NRC program, again where NRC was trying to provide training to their equivalent Russian inspectors for nuclear power plants and explain to them some of the ways that they did inspections, things they looked for, how they documented findings and things like that. We had four Russian inspectors and their interpreter come over from Moscow. I was their host in Washington, DC, and we worked with them there with the NRC headquarters for a week, providing training. And then we brought them out to Idaho to the Idaho National Lab, north of Idaho Falls, and went to a large hot cell facility at Idaho. A hot cell is where they have a heavily shielded enclosure with mechanical arms that do things on the inside. It was quite a sophisticated facility and somewhat unlike what the Russian counterparts were used to. But it was a good learning exercise for them. We kind of went through a demonstration of how we would do an inspection—a safety inspection. So, I had those kind of opportunities to interact with Russian scientists and found that very exciting. Very interesting. Franklin: Did you find that there was anything that you had learned from them at all? Or do you feel that the US was much more advanced in radiation protection and health physics? Martin: Well, I kept my ears open when I was talking to them, but they didn’t reveal much. [LAUGHTER] So, we didn’t pick up much that way. Franklin: Sure. Martin: We were trying to help them. Franklin: Right. Were you at Hanford during the Russian visit to Hanford when they toured the Plutonium Finishing Plant? Martin: No. That was after I retired, I think. Franklin: Okay, just curious. Martin: I heard about it of course. Franklin: I’m sure. That must have been a pretty big deal from the standpoint of both countries. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to talk about? Martin: I think there’s one thing I remember from when I did this interview the first time that I wanted to mention. Franklin: Sure. Martin: I’ve been talking about all the varied experiences I had, and excellent opportunities over the years. But I think one of the perhaps most impressive things that I was able to do was to be able to hire several good people into my organization. I won’t mention names, but there were several that I call superstars that are now leaders in the field. I was able to bring them in right out of college or from another job, and hire several really good people that certainly enhanced our program, and then gave them great opportunities to grow and expand. Like I say, they’re now leaders in the field. That was one of the most rewarding parts of my job. Franklin: That’s great. Maybe you can give me their names off camera and we could contact them. Martin: I think they’re already on your list. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay, good. Martin: But I’ll do that. Franklin: Well, good. Martin: We’ll do that. Franklin: They should be. Tom, did you— Tom Hungate: No, I’m fine. Franklin: Emma, did you have anything? Emma Rice: No, I’m fine. Franklin: Okay. Well, I think that’s it. Jerry, thank you so much. Martin: Well, that was fun. Did we stay on target? Franklin: I believe we did. Martin: I wandered a little. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s okay. Martin: There’s some stories there that might be interesting. Franklin: I think the stories help keep the oral histories—they have a human-centered focus and they’re interesting for people to watch. Martin: I hope so. Franklin: And I think there might be a couple things that merit some more research in there that personally, for me, I’d like to find out some more about. Martin: Oh, okay. Franklin: Especially the howitzer thing. Martin: Oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: One thing I’d just like to ask— Martin: Sure. Hungate: You’ve been involved in a lot of things over a broad range of time and experiences and I just kind of wonder what you would feel is the one—maybe the item or two that you’ve worked on that will leave the most lasting impact? Martin: The most lasting impact. Hungate: Or that you wished had been developed more that didn’t quite complete, you’d like to see more work done on it, it was either defunded or it was— Martin: Well, I’m thinking of several different things now. I’ll just have to think it through. The work we did with NRC to improve emergency planning on nuclear power plants I think was very effective. And that’s still being maintained today. Work we did with DoE at Pantex on nuclear weapons. You mentioned the end of the Cold War, that’s when many of these tactical nuclear weapons in Europe were brought back and declared obsolete, and so we were doing a massive disassembly operation on those. I learned a lot about nuclear weapons and found it fascinating. We implemented some methods at Pantex that I think are still in use in the maintenance programs that they do now. But we were able to, I think, substantially improve on radiation safety at Pantex. Certainly to the point where we were finally blessed by DNFSB and DoE. I think the quality of that program has been maintained. There’s several other projects that I’ve worked on over the years, but I guess there’s no one thing that stands out that I would be concerned about that it was defunded or ended or somehow went downhill. I’m sure that’s happened, but I haven’t kept track of everything. Franklin: Being as nuclear power and nuclear weapons have different objectives, and you mentioned this retirement of a lot of nuclear weapons, do you feel that nuclear weapons still have a role to play in security— Martin: I do. Franklin: You do? Martin: Yes. Because the Russians still have a lot of them, China has some, the French and English have a few. It’s what I call the mutual deterrent, which is a term that’s been used. It just means that we don’t ever want to use one again, but if any one of those countries had some kind of an unbalanced advantage, it could be used. So if we have this mutual assured deterrence, it keeps that in balance. So it’s important to maintain that stockpile. Franklin: Interesting. Thank you. Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Great. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history with Jerome Martin on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Jerome Martin about his experiences working at the Hanford site and his involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. And you—just wanted to use your legal name to start out with, but you prefer to be called Jerry, right? Jerome Martin: Yes, I do. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Jerome’s a little too formal. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Just for the technical purposes. Sure. No more, we will not mention the name— Martin: Okay. Franklin: Again. [LAUGHTER] So for the record, you did an interview with the Parker Foundation sometime in 2010. Martin: I believe it was earlier. Franklin: Or possibly earlier. And some of the Parker Foundation videos, as we know, were lost. And so this video is an attempt to recapture some of the information that would have been in that oral history, but also add some other information, and also to give you a chance to talk about your involvement with the Herbert M. Parker Foundation. So just as a introduction to whoever views this in the future. So why don’t we start in the beginning? How did you come to—you’re not from the Tri-Cities? Martin: Not originally. Franklin: All right. How did you come to the Tri-Cities? Martin: Well, a little quick history, I got my bachelor’s degree at San Diego State College and then I was a radiation safety officer at San Diego State for about three years. Then I had an opportunity to go to the University of Colorado in Boulder, where, again, I was a radiation safety officer and on the faculty of the physics department. After several years there, an excellent opportunity came up for me here at Hanford with Battelle, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So I moved here in 1976, and had a great opportunity to work with many other more senior people here at Hanford that had been here since the beginning. One of those, of course, was Herbert M. Parker. He was former director of the laboratories under General Electric, and then retired, but stayed on with Battelle as a director. I had a few opportunities to interact with him, and was quite impressed. I have heard stories about, he was a rather demanding taskmaster. And I could kind of imagining myself trying to work for him, but it would have been a challenge. Franklin: What do you feel is important to be known about Herbert M. Parker for the historical record? Martin: I’ve had an opportunity to review many of his publications. They were quite professional and very well researched, and in many cases the leading authority on several topics. So I was very impressed by his publications. I didn’t have a direct opportunity to work for him, so I don’t know about his management style or other things. But that was the thing that impressed me the most, was his publications. Franklin: What topics did Dr. Parker write on—or do his research? Martin: His early professional career was in medical physics. He was at Swedish Hospital in Seattle for many years. Then he was called upon, as part of the Manhattan Project, to set up the safety program at Oak Ridge. He did that for about a year or so. Then he was called upon to do the same thing here at Hanford. So he came here and established the entire environmental safety and health program for Hanford. Of course he had all the right background to be able to do that, and he was able to recruit a number of really talented people to help him with that. So I think Hanford ended up with what could be known as the best environmental safety and health program, among all the early AEC and then DoE laboratories. One of the things that impressed me most by that program was the record keeping. And I had an opportunity to work on that in later years. But the way the record keeping was designed and set up and maintained was quite thorough. It was designed to be able to recreate whatever may have happened according to those records. It turned out to be very valuable in later years. Franklin: Who instituted that record-keeping? Was that Parker? Martin: I don’t recall the name of the individual that set it up, although I know Ken Hyde was involved very early on. He may have been at the very origin of it. But I’m sure Parker certainly influenced the rigor with which that program was established. In later years, John Jech was manager of the record keeping program, and then my good friend, Matt Lyon, was the manager of that. I worked with Matt, then, on American National Standard Institute’s standard for record keeping. We incorporated into that standard virtually all of the fundamentals that Parker had established initially. Franklin: The first name was John— Martin: The second manager of records was John Jech. J-E-C-H. Franklin: Do you know if he’s still living? Martin: No, he’s not. Franklin: And what about Lyon? Martin: Matt Lyon passed away about ten years ago, as did Ken Hyde. Franklin: What’s that? Martin: Ken Hyde—I think they all three passed away about ten years ago. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Yeah, give or take. Franklin: So you mentioned that the record keeping was designed to recreate an incident as it happened. Do you know of any such—or can you speak to any such times when that record keeping system was crucial into a safety issue? Martin: The one that comes to mind is one of the more I guess infamous incidents here at Hanford. It occurred just around the time I arrived here in 1976. It was sometimes called the McCluskey accident out at the 231-Z Building. There was an explosion in a glovebox that resulted in very significant contamination of Mr. McCluskey by americium-241. And the response to that incident, and then all the following treatment of Mr. McCluskey was very well documented. In fact, those documents then became the basis for a whole series of scientific papers that described the entire incident and all the aspects of it. So that was one major case where excellent record keeping was very valuable. Franklin: Excellent. And what—I’m just curious now—what happened to Mr. McCluskey? Martin: He survived for about ten years after the accident. He initially had very severe acid burns and trauma. But he was very carefully treated for that. The americium contamination that he had was gradually eliminated—not eliminated, but reduced substantially. He survived for another ten years after that incident even though he had heart trouble. I know several people that assisted in his care, and it was quite remarkable what they were able to do and what he was able to do. Franklin: Wow. Did he ever go back to work? Martin: No, he was 65 at the time of the accident. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: So he kind of went into medical retirement at that point. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Yeah, I can imagine. So you said you came in 1976. Martin: Right. Franklin: And what did you—what was your first job, when you came to Battelle? Martin: Well, I worked in what was called the radiation protection department, later called health physics department. My first assignment was called ALARA management. ALARA stands for maintain our radiation exposures as low as reasonably achievable. I would monitor the exposure records of Battelle workers, and watch for any that were the least bit unusually high, and then look for ways that we could reduce those exposures. And I monitored other things like average exposures and the use of dosimeters and things of that nature. The overall assignment was to generally reduce the workers’ radiation exposure. Franklin: How successful do you feel that the department was in that effort? Martin: I think we were very successful, and it went on for many years, even after I had that assignment. I remember one time, looking at a report that DoE put out annually on radiation exposures over all the major DoE facilities. Those average exposures, highest individual exposures, and things of that nature. Battelle and Hanford had among the lowest averages of all the other DoE facilities. So, I believe it was a very effective ALARA program here at Hanford. Franklin: Do you know if that report was ever made publically available? Martin: Oh, yes. Franklin: Oh. Martin: Yeah, those are published every year by DoE. Franklin: Oh, great. I’ll have to find that. Sorry, just scribbling down some notes. Martin: At one point, Battelle had a contract with the DoE headquarters to actually do the production of that report each year. Franklin: Okay. Martin: And I was involved in the production of it—oh, three or four years, as I recall. Franklin: Okay. So you mentioned that you had moved on out of that program or department, so what— Martin: Right. Well, I started getting involved in management at kind of the bottom level. I was an associate section manager, and then I got an assignment as section manager for the radiation monitoring section. I was responsible for all the radiation monitors—or as they’re now called, radiation protection technologists—the radiation monitors for Battelle and two other of the contractors here at Hanford. It was kind of ironic that I was located in what used to be the 300 Area library, and my office was on the second floor. And my office was the former office of Herbert M. Parker, when he was director of laboratories. Franklin: Wow! Martin: It was an honor to have that space, and recall memories of Mr. Parker. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. And how long did you do that for? Martin: I did that two or three years, and then another opportunity came along in 1979—no actually, it was ’79, but I guess I’d been on that management job for about a year and a half. In September of ’79, which was about three months after the Three Mile Island accident, we had an opportunity to make a proposal to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to provide support for their staff in emergency planning work. At that time, NRC was making a big push on all the power plants, all the nuclear power plants across the country to enhance their emergency planning programs. So we began about a ten-year project with NRC to supplement their staff. The NRC established the requirement for annual emergency exercises at each of the nuclear power plants, where they had to work up a scenario, and then they would activate their emergency response staff to demonstrate that they would know how to handle that accident scenario. We served as observers. We had teams of observers with the NRC staff. We did a total of 800 of those exercises over a ten-year period. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So we had a lot of staff out there, doing a lot of travel. Franklin: Yeah. So that would have been—so you said for power, would that have been for all of the power reactors in the United States? Martin: Yes. There were 103 plants at the time. Franklin: Wow. Did you do any in foreign countries? Martin: I didn’t personally, but we did have some staff that went to a similar kind of program with the International Atomic Energy Agency, and visited foreign nuclear power plants. Some in France, that I recall. Franklin: Wow. So you said 103 power plants? Martin: In the US, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Actually, that was the number of reactors. There was a fewer number of plants, because many of them are two or more reactors at a site. Franklin: Oh, okay so the 103 is the number of reactors? Martin: I believe that’s correct. At that time. Franklin: How did Chernobyl affect your field and your work? Martin: That’s an excellent question, because that was in this period. Of course, the Chernobyl accident happened in 1986, and I was working directly with NRC at that time. I was project manager on that NRC contract. When Chernobyl happened, there was an immediate reaction, and NRC had to study the Chernobyl accident as well as we could, and then determine what could be applied to US power reactors by way of improvements and emergency planning. One of my managers, Bill Bair, was part of a US delegation led by DoE and NRC to actually visit the Chernobyl area shortly after the accident, interact with the Russians, and do lessons learned that was turned into a series of DoE and NRC documents that tried to extract as much useful information as we could from Chernobyl and apply it here in the US. Franklin: Right, because if I’m not mistaken, the design of the Chernobyl reactor—there were reactors of similar design in the United States. Martin: Not exactly. The Chernobyl reactor had no containment vessel. There were a few reactors in the US that also did not have containment vessels, but they had other safeguards. The N Reactor was one of those. Unfortunately, I would call it an overreaction of the US government to a reactor with no containment. Severe restrictions were put on N Reactor, and some re-design was required that ultimately led to the end of N Reactor. It’s interesting to note that at that point in time, which was about 1986, 1987, N Reactor had generated more electricity from a nuclear reactor than any other plant in the world. So it’s unfortunate it came to an early demise. Franklin: And—sorry, my ignorance here on the technical aspects. You said some of them don’t have a containment vessel. What does a containment vessel look like and what role does it play, and why would there would be reactors with one and without one? Martin: Well, N Reactor went back to the early—the late ‘50s, I believe when it was designed. It was designed similar to the other reactors here at Hanford that were intended for production of plutonium. But N Reactor was a dual purpose, in that it also generated 800 megawatts of electricity. But it had a similar kind of design to what you see out at B Plant, for example. So it didn’t have the same kind of containment vessel that other modern pressurized water reactors or other nuclear power plants have that is designed in such a way that if there is reactor core damage, any radioactivity released can be contained and not released. Franklin: Okay. Martin: Or released in a very controlled fashion. Franklin: I see. Kind of like a clam shell that kind of covers the— Martin: Well, it’s basically—yeah, in many cases a spherical kind of containment. Franklin: Okay. Excellent. So after—obviously the demise of N Reactor, ’86, ’87, is kind of the end of operations—or I should say of product production—product and energy production on the Hanford site. So how did your job change after that? And what did you continue to do after the shutdown? Martin: I wasn’t directly affected by N Reactor shutting down. And the other production reactors had been shut down before that, so I wasn’t really directly involved in that. But I had yet another opportunity came up that turned out to be really a challenge for me. The Pantex plant in Amarillo, Texas is the primary assembly and disassembly facility for nuclear weapons. At that time, it was managed by a company called Mason and Hanger. Mason and Hanger had that contract for many years, and DoE challenged them to rebid the contract. So Mason and Hanger reached out to Battelle for assistance in teaming on environmental health and safety. So my manager talked me into being involved, so I went down to Amarillo and visited the plant and worked with the team there on the proposal that had to be presented to DoE. And we won the contract. Of course in the fine print it said I then had to move there. Franklin: Ah! Martin: But it turned out great. By that time, my family was pretty well grown, kids were through college. So we moved down to Amarillo, and I went to work at Pantex. We really enjoyed that. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Amarillo’s a very nice town, a lot of nice people. The work at Pantex was very challenging. I enjoyed that very much, too. Franklin: Great. So how long were you at the Pantex plant? Martin: Well, I was manager of the radiation safety department down there for three years, which was my original contract obligation. During that time, we were very closely scrutinized by the Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board, which was an organization established by Congress to be a watchdog over DoE. Their method for watching DoE was to watch the contractors very closely. So they would scrutinize everything we did, and then challenge DoE if they found something. They pushed us in a way that was good, because one of the things they promoted was professional certification. I’m a certified health physicist, certified by the American Board of Health Physics. At the time at Pantex, I was the only one we had there. But the DNFSB pushed us to add more, so I got more of my staff certified. There was a similar program for technicians called the National Registry of Radiation Protection Technologists, and at the time, we had two of my staff that were registered with NRRPT. Again, they pushed us to promote more training. By the end of that three-year period, I think we had ten of our technologists registered and certified. So we really improved the credentials of our staff. We instituted some new programs, again, related to ALARA radiation reduction. Probably the most interesting or challenging day of my life occurred down there in 1994. We were working on disassembly of the W48 program. The W48 was a tactical weapon used in—that was deployed in Europe—it was never used. But it was a very small, cylindrical nuclear weapon designed to be shot out of a 155 millimeter howitzer, which is amazing just to think about. But the plutonium pit in this device was surrounded by high explosive. It turned out to be rather difficult to disassemble this particular design of nuclear weapon. It also turned out that the plutonium pit had a relatively high dose rate, compared to others. So the workers were getting some increased exposure to their hands in the process of working on this. So we were concerned about their extremity dose. So we worked up a method for doing a classified videotape of the disassembly operation, so that we could study each step in the process to find ways to improve worker safety. Providing shielding, remote tools, things of that nature. The process on this was to take the plutonium pit and high explosives and put it in liquid nitrogen bath for a period of time. Then bring it out and put it in a little tub-like, and pour hot water on it. The HE would expand rapidly and crack off. And for the most part, it worked very well. Well, there was this one particular pit that we were working on when we were doing the videotape for this study. Apparently the HE wasn’t coming off the way it should, and so they had to repeat this process over and over. They brought it out of the liquid nitrogen, poured hot water on it, and the plutonium—the cladding, the beryllium cladding on the plutonium pit actually cracked, due to the severe temperature change. The workers who were working on this were trained very carefully that if that cladding on the pit ever cracks, get out of there fast, so you avoid a plutonium exposure. So that happened. One of the technicians heard an audible crack and saw it on the surface of that pit. And they all evacuated immediately. They got just outside the door of this special facility, and they called our radiation safety office, and fortunately my three best technicians were standing there by the phone. They said, pit had cracked. And so they got over there as fast as they possibly could. They recognized the danger of having an exposed plutonium pit, and how that can oxidize and cause severe contamination very quickly. They decided to put on respirators to protect themselves, but they didn’t bother with any of the other protective clothing because they wanted to save time. So they made an entry where the cracked pit was, still there with the water bath on it, and the video shooting this picture. They took samples right on the crack and on the water and all around it. They managed to take that plutonium pit and get it into a plastic bag and then they doubled bagged it and then they triple bagged it and sealed it up. Then they came out. Of course, the samples revealed that there was indeed plutonium contamination coming out of that crack, but they had contained it very quickly. When we made a later entry to retrieve the video tape that was still running, and we looked at the timestamp on it. From the time the crack appeared until they had it in the bag was seven minutes. Franklin: Wow! Martin: That’s about as fast as you can possibly expect a response team to come in and secure a situation like that. And so, following that, of course we had the incident debriefing, and I had to chair that. But we very carefully went through and recorded every little thing that happened from the time they were working on the disassembly to the time they exited. Got that all documented, and then the videotape of course documented all of that. The scrutiny by Department of Energy, the Amarillo office, the Albuquerque office, Headquarters, any number of others—we had a lot of attention that day. It was a long, hard day at the office, but very exciting. Following that, we had to debrief many other investigation committees and others. But we had that videotape to rely on, and that just was invaluable. That’s my—that was probably the most exciting day of my life, down there. [LAUGHTER] Got a follow-up to that. That W48 weapon was designed by Livermore. They came in at a later time and did a post-mortem on that cracked pit. And when they did, we discovered that the amount of plutonium contamination there that was available for distribution had it not been contained, would have totally just made that facility useless. I mean, extremely expensive clean-up, if it ever got done. Franklin: Not just the room, but the entire facility? Martin: Well, mainly that room. Franklin: That room. Martin: But it was a very big room, and a very valuable room, specially designed. But the quick response of our radiation safety technicians and getting that contained saved that room and millions of dollars in expense. Franklin: Wow. And so this was a weapon that was the size of a howitzer shell? Martin: 155 millimeters. Franklin: Wow. And what is the—I don’t know if you know this—but what’s the explosive power of that—is it—I guess it could be— Martin: Well, it’s just like the atomic bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, about 20-kiloton fission device. The plutonium pit is designed to implode and cause a super-critical reaction. Franklin: But fired out of a howitzer, instead of— Martin: Fired out of a howitzer, perhaps 20 miles or something. And then you can somehow coordinate the careful detonation of this-- Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Martin: --device. It boggled my mind. Franklin: I guess that’s best that that was never ever— Martin: There’s quite a large number of different nuclear weapons. Many of them were tactical weapons used in Europe—or deployed in Europe during the Cold War. Many other more modern ones are part of Polaris missiles and other large bombs that can be deployed by B-52s or B-2s. Franklin: Sure. Martin: Yeah. There’s quite a wide range of different models and designs. I didn’t know that at the time, but it’s fascinating. I remember one day standing in one of the disassembly rooms, and they had this nuclear weapon in a cradle standing there on the floor, and they had the top off of it. And I could just look down in the top of it. I couldn’t touch it, but I could look in there and just see the engineering in one of those things was just amazing. Just beyond belief. Franklin: I bet. I can only imagine. Martin: Yeah. But I’ve gone off on this nuclear weapons story and departed from Hanford. Franklin: It’s okay. Martin: Maybe I should come back. Franklin: I think that’s a very interesting story. I certainly—I’ve also, like I said, heard of plenty of bombs—ICBMs, missiles, but I’d never quite heard of a howitzer-type fired weapon. But also just the fact that your team and your field was able to prevent a really nasty incident is pretty amazing. Martin: Right. Franklin: It speaks to your profession and your skill. Martin: Well, like I mentioned, the professional credentials. Two of the three technicians who responded were certified by NNRPT. And they had the right kind of training, knew what to do, did it very well. Franklin: Great. Martin: I had an opportunity a year later to nominate them for a special DoE award for unusual—not heroism, but effective response. And they won the award that year. Franklin: That’s great. So how and when did you leave Pantex? Martin: Well, the first time, was in ’96—no, I’m sorry, in ’93—and I had a special appointment back at DoE headquarters in Germantown. So I went back there for two years to work with the branch of DoE that was like an inspector general—the internal inspection branch, if you will. Very similar in scope to what the DNFSB—Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board—was doing. Scrutinizing all the DoE operations at the national labs and other facilities, and trying to always make improvements. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So I worked with the DoE headquarters staff on many different audits that we did at other DoE labs. At the time, I specialized in dosimetry, both internal and external dosimetry, and other operational health physics parts of the program. Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Tri-Cities? Martin: Well, I had a couple other interesting assignments in there. After DoE headquarters, then I went back to Pantex for three more years. And then another opportunity came up on an old facility near Cincinnati that needed to be decommissioned—decontaminated and decommissioned. And I went to Oak Ridge first, worked with the Foster Wheeler Company on the design of what became the largest radon control building that had ever been done. I was the radiation safety officer for that project at Oak Ridge in the design effort. And then we moved to Cincinnati for a year and I worked at the Fernald facility in actually building this radon control facility. What we were trying to deal with were these large concrete silos that contained residual ore material from the Second World War. They have to go back to—when the Manhattan Project was trying to bring together the necessary uranium in addition to the plutonium that was produced here at Hanford, they were using a rich pitch blend ore that was coming from what was then called Belgian Congo in Africa. It was shipped from there up the Saint Lawrence River to a facility near Niagara Falls. And then it ended up being processed to extract as much uranium as possible. But there were these residuals. They ended up in these concrete silos near Niagara Falls, New York as well as this Fernald facility, just outside of Cincinnati. So we had three big concrete silos that—I don’t recall—they must have been 80 feet in diameter and 50 feet high. So they held a lot of uranium ore residuals. It contained a fair amount of radium, which gave off radon gas. This facility was located not too far from a residential area. So it became a greater concern for getting it cleaned up. We put together this radon control facility that had these huge charcoal beds and you could pipe—you could take the head gas off of this silo, pipe it into these charcoal beds where the radon would be absorbed, and then the clean air would circulate. So you could fairly rapidly reduce the concentration of radon inside the silo to much lower levels. In the process, the charcoal beds got loaded up by absorbing radon. There came a point where you had to heat up that charcoal to drive off the captured radon. We devised a clever scheme with four different beds where we could kind of keep one of them recirculating on all times and have the other three working. Franklin: So you say drive off the captured radon, where would it be driven off? Martin: Over to the next charcoal bed, which hadn’t yet been completely saturated. Franklin: Oh! But then eventually you still have charcoal that— Martin: but it decays with a 3.8 day half-life, and that was built into the plan, too. Franklin: Oh! Martin: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: But if it was to escape, right, it would get people very—it would contaminate or get people sick, or--? Martin: Well, it was pretty carefully designed not to— Franklin: Oh, but I’m saying that radon— Martin: Oh, if it escaped from the silo. If there was no control of it—a certain amount of radon was escaping from the silo. For the most part, it’s a light gas, it just goes up and the wind blows it and disperses it. So it was very difficult to even measure anything offsite. But there was that concern there that we were dealing with. Franklin: But if enough of it was released at once, then there might have been an issue? Martin: Like if the whole roof of the silo was suddenly removed and it all came out, that could be a problem, yeah. Franklin: Interesting. I didn’t realize it had such a short half-life. Martin: Yeah. So I did that, what amounted to ten years of offsite assignments. About that time, my wife and I got tired of moving. So we came back to the Tri-Cities, and our kids are here. I came back to work at Battelle for another few years before I retired. Franklin: When did you come back to Battelle? Martin: I came back in 2001. Franklin: Oh, okay. So then you worked for—it says you retired in 2006. Martin: I retired about four years later. And the last major project I worked on was also very interesting. It was the project for customs and border protection. It was to install radiation portal monitors at seaports. This was shortly after 9/11, and there was a concern about dirty bomb material being imported by any means. We had one part of the project dealt with seaport, another part airports, and a third part postal facilities. Franklin: Wow. Martin: So I worked on the seaports part, and I had the Port of Los Angeles was my assignment. Another one of us had Port of Long Beach, which is right next door, which are the largest seaports on the West Coast and have the largest number of shipping containers coming in. So we devised a method for monitoring those shipping containers as they were unloaded and making sure nothing was coming in that way. Franklin: Did—oh, sorry. Martin: Very interesting project. Franklin: I don’t know if you can speak to this, but was anything caught by these monitors? Martin: Yes. But not dirty bomb material. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: Turns out they were so sensitive, they would detect any kind of elevated background radioactivity. For example, kitty litter is a little bit elevated in background. Any kind of stone product, and there are various granite and other stone products imported from different places. Those had a high enough background activity that they would trigger our monitors. So we would run all these containers through a set of monitors, and any that triggered that amount would then be sent over to a secondary monitor, where they’d examine it more carefully, verify what was actually in the containers, sometimes inspect them. Franklin: So recently our project staff got a tour of some of the facilities at HAMMER. And I believe we saw one of those monitors. Would that have been the same? Martin: Mm-hm. Big yellow columns? Franklin: Yeah, that they run it through. Martin: Yep, that was the one. Franklin: So you helped design— Martin: We helped design—oh, I didn’t really get involved in design. That was done by some real smart people out here at Battelle. But I was onsite trying to get them installed. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: And tested. Franklin: Wow. That’s really—that’s fascinating. Martin: Yeah, it was. I had a chance to do a lot of fun things when I worked at Battelle. Franklin: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like maybe I need to go get a job over there. Maybe they need a traveling historian. So, where—what have you been doing since you retired? Martin: Well, for about five years, I worked for Dade Moeller, which is kind of a spinoff company from Battelle. And they had a major contract with NIOSH—National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health—as part of an employee compensation program for radiation workers. Initially, the way this was set up was we got the actual radiation exposure records for former employees and examined their measured radiation exposure, and then did some other calculations that would tend to take into account anything else that they might have been exposed to but was somehow not measured on the dosimeter and many other factors to kind of add up their maximum possible radiation dose. And then that was compared—this is where it got a little complex. There are many different types of cancer that can be caused by radiation at a high enough level. Some types of cancer can be caused by a radiation level lower than some others. So it depended on what type of cancer the individual had as to which—how we measured their maximum possible radiation exposure to the likelihood that that cancer was caused by radiation. We did a careful calculation using probability and determined that if their cancer was at least 50% probable that it was caused by radiation, then they were granted an award. Well, we did that for several years in a very careful, scientific way that was well-documented. Then it became political. A lot of former workers, then, applied for another category within this overall compensation program that they called Special Exposure Cohort. Which meant that it didn’t matter how much radiation exposure they had, if they had the right type of cancer, they could get the award. And it’s kind of degenerated that way. But for many years, I think we did it right. I also had an opportunity to work on another part of that project where we did what we call the technical basis documents, where we reconstructed the history of how radiation exposure records were developed and maintained at each of these different sites. Every one varied a little bit. I did the one for the technical basis document for Pantex in Amarillo, because I was familiar with that. But I got to do several other interesting sites, one of which was Ames Laboratory in Ames, Iowa. Going there and interviewing some of these old-timers and looking at their old records, I found that there was a chemistry professor at what was then Iowa State University. He was called upon by the Manhattan Project in 1943 to help them improve their methods for extracting uranium metal. The old process that had been used by the Curies and other early scientists was really quite inefficient. But this professor developed a method used in a calcium catalyst that was very effective. He was able to purify uranium metal much quicker and in larger quantities. The story was that he would have to get on the train every Sunday afternoon and go to Chicago for the meeting with the Manhattan Project and report on the progress of his research and so on. One week after successfully isolating an ingot of uranium metal, he took it with him in his briefcase. Went into the meeting with Manhattan Project and clunked it on the desk, and passed it around. He said that this is a new method for producing substantial quantities of uranium metal. All the scientists around the table kind of poked at it and scratched it and so on and didn’t believe it was really uranium, but it was. And they finally decided that he had made a great breakthrough, so they sent him back to Iowa and said, make a lot more, fast. And he did. So he had the material they needed, then, for the Manhattan Project. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Interesting story. Franklin: Yeah, that’s really fascinating. So how did you become involved with the Parker Foundation? Martin: About ten years ago—almost ten years ago—my friend Bill Bair and Ron Kathren and a couple others on the Parker Board invited me to participate. Matt Moeller was chairman of the board at that time—invited me to participate, and I just joined in, and found it very rewarding. I really appreciate what the Parker Board does in the memory of Herb Parker and in the sense of scholarships and other educational programs. So it’s a pleasure to contribute to that. Franklin: Great, great. You moved in 1975 or ’76? Martin: I moved here in ’76. Franklin: ’76. And you mentioned children. Were your children born here, or did you move here with them? Martin: My oldest daughter was born in San Diego, and my younger daughter was born in Boulder, Colorado. Franklin: Okay. Martin: So they were six and eight, I think, when we moved here. Franklin: What were your impressions of Richland in the mid-70s when you moved? Did you live in Richland or did you--? Martin: We did. Yeah, we lived just a few blocks from WSU here. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: In North Richland. It was a very different community, but one that I came to know and respect. Because at that time, education was really paramount in the minds of parents and the school system. And my wife was a teacher. So we really took an interest in that. My kids got a really good education here in Richland. Went to Hanford High, and then did well in college. One of the main features of Richland at that time, I think, was a superior education program. Some of the other history of Richland with old government housing, and then we got a new house, and things like that are entirely different, but also very interesting. Franklin: And is that what you kind of are meaning when you say it was a different community? I guess I’d like to unpack that a little bit more. How—in what ways was it different? Martin: Well, a large part of Richland was originally government housing, and you only had to drive through town, you could see all the evidence of that. And then on the north side of Richland, they had opened up—beginning in 1965, I believe—development of newer private housing. We got here just in time to get in on a new house, and worked out fine for us. Franklin: Great. Was there—being next to a site that was primarily involved in product production, plutonium production—was there a different feeling about the Cold War in Richland per se than anywhere else you had lived in the United States at that time? Martin: There definitely was different feelings about the Cold War and living anywhere near a nuclear power plant. I remember when we were working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission at many different reactor sites around the country. In many cases we would have public meetings to introduce the local folks to what we were trying to do to improve the emergency planning. There was a lot of concern about living anywhere near a nuclear power plant just a few years after TMI. I tried to explain to people how I live within 30 miles of nine nuclear power plants. But I understood radiation. I understood the risk, and I understood what could go wrong or how to deal with it. And it didn’t concern—didn’t bother me that much to live here. I found that to be generally true of a lot of people in Richland that were part—working at Hanford and were well-educated. They understood the risk and they could deal with it. Whereas many other people were just afraid. And I attribute that to what I call now about a 71-year deliberate misinformation program on the part of mass media to scare people about radiation. Franklin: I like that. I’m writing it down. How do you feel that the—do you feel that the ending of the Cold War changed your work at all? I guess the reason why I ask— Martin: It did. Franklin: --these questions about the Cold War is because it was the impetus for much of the continued production of the material. Martin: Yeah. I was in Germany in 1988, just before the Berlin Wall came down. I was also there in Berlin in 1984, and we actually crossed through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin on a special tour. Franklin: Really? Martin: It was quite amazing. I was in Berlin for a meeting of the International Radiation Protection Association. I took my whole family; it was a tremendous adventure for them. But we were able to be part of a special US Army tour that went through Checkpoint Charlie. I think they did this once a week. And we had a little tour of East Berlin while it was still under the control of the USSR. We visited their Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and they had a little ceremonial changing the guard there. And we visited the square in Berlin where Hitler had burned the books that one night in 1939. And then we visited a huge Russian war memorial, and there was a building there where the Germans had surrendered in 1945. There was quite a story about that. But I was really impressed with this huge Russian war memorial. There were five mass graves that each held 100,000 soldiers. It was done in kind of the Russian style, with statues and other honorary symbols to clearly show their respect for the lives of all those soldiers. But that was an impressive sight. But I was there again in 1988 just before the Berlin Wall came down, and you could kind of see the end of the Cold War coming. So it was a great opportunity that I had, working for Battelle, being able to travel like that, and do many exciting things. Franklin: Did you get to ever talk or meet with any of your counterparts on the Russian side? Martin: Yes. Franklin: After the Cold War ended. And what was that like, to finally work with what had been considered the enemy? Martin: It was quite unusual. I was scheduled to go to Russia a week after 9/11. It almost got canceled, but I managed to go. I was giving—they were having a conference for young scientists and trying to introduce them to international concepts of radiation safety. So I gave my paper and four others that we did to that group. It was located at what was the Russian equivalent of Los Alamos, their design facility. There weren’t very many Americans had been in there up to that point. So I was watched very closely. [LAUGHTER] And not allowed to see much, actually. But it was a very interesting exchange. The papers I was presenting were prepared in both English and Russian. And then we also did what they called a poster presentation, where we had a big poster with diagrams and everything—again translated to Russian. So we were able to put these up at this conference for these young scientists. They, I think, got a lot out of it because it was in their language so it was easy for them to understand. Working with an interpreter was a new experience for me. I would give this oral presentation, so I’d say one sentence and the pause. The interpreter would repeat that. I’d say the next sentence, and—kind of an awkward way to do an oral presentation. Franklin: I can imagine. Martin: But their hospitality was very good. This was in 2001. So the Cold War had been over for quite a few years. But we were trying to establish better relations. I think it was quite effective in doing that. I had another opportunity to work with Russian scientists on an NRC program, again where NRC was trying to provide training to their equivalent Russian inspectors for nuclear power plants and explain to them some of the ways that they did inspections, things they looked for, how they documented findings and things like that. We had four Russian inspectors and their interpreter come over from Moscow. I was their host in Washington, DC, and we worked with them there with the NRC headquarters for a week, providing training. And then we brought them out to Idaho to the Idaho National Lab, north of Idaho Falls, and went to a large hot cell facility at Idaho. A hot cell is where they have a heavily shielded enclosure with mechanical arms that do things on the inside. It was quite a sophisticated facility and somewhat unlike what the Russian counterparts were used to. But it was a good learning exercise for them. We kind of went through a demonstration of how we would do an inspection—a safety inspection. So, I had those kind of opportunities to interact with Russian scientists and found that very exciting. Very interesting. Franklin: Did you find that there was anything that you had learned from them at all? Or do you feel that the US was much more advanced in radiation protection and health physics? Martin: Well, I kept my ears open when I was talking to them, but they didn’t reveal much. [LAUGHTER] So, we didn’t pick up much that way. Franklin: Sure. Martin: We were trying to help them. Franklin: Right. Were you at Hanford during the Russian visit to Hanford when they toured the Plutonium Finishing Plant? Martin: No. That was after I retired, I think. Franklin: Okay, just curious. Martin: I heard about it of course. Franklin: I’m sure. That must have been a pretty big deal from the standpoint of both countries. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to talk about? Martin: I think there’s one thing I remember from when I did this interview the first time that I wanted to mention. Franklin: Sure. Martin: I’ve been talking about all the varied experiences I had, and excellent opportunities over the years. But I think one of the perhaps most impressive things that I was able to do was to be able to hire several good people into my organization. I won’t mention names, but there were several that I call superstars that are now leaders in the field. I was able to bring them in right out of college or from another job, and hire several really good people that certainly enhanced our program, and then gave them great opportunities to grow and expand. Like I say, they’re now leaders in the field. That was one of the most rewarding parts of my job. Franklin: That’s great. Maybe you can give me their names off camera and we could contact them. Martin: I think they’re already on your list. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay, good. Martin: But I’ll do that. Franklin: Well, good. Martin: We’ll do that. Franklin: They should be. Tom, did you— Tom Hungate: No, I’m fine. Franklin: Emma, did you have anything? Emma Rice: No, I’m fine. Franklin: Okay. Well, I think that’s it. Jerry, thank you so much. Martin: Well, that was fun. Did we stay on target? Franklin: I believe we did. Martin: I wandered a little. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s okay. Martin: There’s some stories there that might be interesting. Franklin: I think the stories help keep the oral histories—they have a human-centered focus and they’re interesting for people to watch. Martin: I hope so. Franklin: And I think there might be a couple things that merit some more research in there that personally, for me, I’d like to find out some more about. Martin: Oh, okay. Franklin: Especially the howitzer thing. Martin: Oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: One thing I’d just like to ask— Martin: Sure. Hungate: You’ve been involved in a lot of things over a broad range of time and experiences and I just kind of wonder what you would feel is the one—maybe the item or two that you’ve worked on that will leave the most lasting impact? Martin: The most lasting impact. Hungate: Or that you wished had been developed more that didn’t quite complete, you’d like to see more work done on it, it was either defunded or it was— Martin: Well, I’m thinking of several different things now. I’ll just have to think it through. The work we did with NRC to improve emergency planning on nuclear power plants I think was very effective. And that’s still being maintained today. Work we did with DoE at Pantex on nuclear weapons. You mentioned the end of the Cold War, that’s when many of these tactical nuclear weapons in Europe were brought back and declared obsolete, and so we were doing a massive disassembly operation on those. I learned a lot about nuclear weapons and found it fascinating. We implemented some methods at Pantex that I think are still in use in the maintenance programs that they do now. But we were able to, I think, substantially improve on radiation safety at Pantex. Certainly to the point where we were finally blessed by DNFSB and DoE. I think the quality of that program has been maintained. There’s several other projects that I’ve worked on over the years, but I guess there’s no one thing that stands out that I would be concerned about that it was defunded or ended or somehow went downhill. I’m sure that’s happened, but I haven’t kept track of everything. Franklin: Being as nuclear power and nuclear weapons have different objectives, and you mentioned this retirement of a lot of nuclear weapons, do you feel that nuclear weapons still have a role to play in security— Martin: I do. Franklin: You do? Martin: Yes. Because the Russians still have a lot of them, China has some, the French and English have a few. It’s what I call the mutual deterrent, which is a term that’s been used. It just means that we don’t ever want to use one again, but if any one of those countries had some kind of an unbalanced advantage, it could be used. So if we have this mutual assured deterrence, it keeps that in balance. So it’s important to maintain that stockpile. Franklin: Interesting. Thank you. Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Great. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02:44 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area B Plant N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1976-2006 2001-2006 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Herbert M. Parker Ken Hyde John Jech McCluskey Mason and Hanger Dade Moeller Bill Bair Ron Kathren Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 2001-today Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerome Martin Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerome Martin conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06-01-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area B Plant Battelle Cold War Department of Energy General Electric HAMMER Hanford Livermore Los Alamo Los Alamos Manhattan Project N Reactor Nuclear Regulatory Commission Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Park Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant River Ron Kathren Safety Sun War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4cd9866a4eb258dbaf1d2f125b8469e3.mp4 6831db7ad6eb353da992fdc64dd43a03 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latino/a Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An ongoing oral history project focusing on the history of the Latine/Latino community of the Tri-Cities, Washington area. Previously known as the WSU Tri-Cities Latinx Oral History Project headed by History faculty Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin. Hanford History Project made the decision in 2024 to use Latino/a instead of Latinx as the former more reflects the grammar and practical use and identification of Spanish speakers. We know that one term will not encompass all those identities. For example, Latine, a gender neutral pronoun and product of the queer Spanish community, was considered for use but we use Latino/a to reflect the prevalence of gendered pronouns in the Spanish language. However, we would like to acknowledge that the discourse around which term to use is complex and evolving. Every person has the right to use the term that captures who they are and that feels the most welcoming to them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Language A language of the resource English; Spanish Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Martinez Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound English: 00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;16 Robert Bauman We're going to go ahead and get started and I can do a little introductory thing and then ask you some questions and conversation, basically. So, my name is Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Jerry Martinez. Today's date is June 14th of 2022. An interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Jerry, could you first please say and spell your full name for us? 00;00;28;18 - 00;00;35;21 Jerry Martinez Yeah, it's Jerry Martinez. J-e-r-r-y M-a-r-t-i-n-e-z. 00;00;35;23 - 00;01;00;14 Robert Bauman Right. Thank you. So, let's start. If we could, by talking a little bit about your family's story, if we could, and their origins, their migration story to the United States, to the Tri-Cities. So, when did your family arrive here? What was the story about how and why, how, when and why they came here? 00;01;00;17 - 00;01;26;21 Jerry Martinez Yeah, and I don't know the exact years and dates, but all this is from just things I've asked them as well. I've asked them this question many times, so I've kind of gained a collection of stories to get to this point. But my parents were born in El Salvador in the sort of sixties and seventies, and they lived in a very rural sort of mountain village outside of Sesori called [place]? I try to look it up one time on Google Maps and it's like so remote. It's just unnamed on Google Maps. But in the late eighties, a civil war broke out in El Salvador. And my father was one of the young men that was recruited by, I forget which side of the war. But he found himself at the age of 23 or 24 on the back of a military truck heading off to some boot camp to get trained on, you know, how to be a soldier of a war. And he gained the courage. And it was I forget the full story, but it was really cool. He was in the back of this truck and they were miles away from his hometown. And he gained the courage to jump out of the vehicle and just book it. And right behind him, another young man followed him and they got to the bus stop in San Miguel or the bus area in San Miguel. And he just found his way back. I asked my dad about how and why the military men didn't chase after him or, you know, why they didn't shoot him. And he said if they jumped off to get me, he said 30 people would be right behind me running away as well. So, he found that he was one of the lucky few to get away. When he got back home to his mother, his mother told him, my grandma Adela, she said to him, “You need to leave. I'd rather you be miles in a different country from me and be alive than you be here with me the day they come find you.” So, she knew in her heart that, you know, you may have gotten away from them now, but they're going to come back for you, and it's not going to be pretty, when they come back for you again. So, she was the first one to sort of tell him to go away. And that's how he started his journey to the U.S. I think when he was my age, 24, he made the journey through El Salvador, Honduras, Mexico, all the way into the United States. He told me his journey across the border was in a banana truck. He just kind of laid down under some banana boxes and they just covered him and that's how he got in. And like many, he found his way into the Central Valley of California to work as a farm worker. The work of a farmworker very migrational. He worked in several different spots in central California, and he found a spot up here that you know, across the West Coast, up and down. There's a lot of opportunities to work in the fields. My father just did that route for a while until he landed here in the Tri-Cities. He found this beautiful area where, you know, there was short breaks between each season. You could just work all year round and you could actually save up some money to get yourself a nice little trailer house around here. So, he decided to stay in the Tri-Cities, and his only way of contact to my mother was through letters and shortly after he came to the United States, unfortunately, his mother died. My grandmother died. And so for a short time he was he didn't write back to my mother. He just worked. But after some time of working in the fields, he gained enough money to get himself a little a little place, a little trailer home that we… that I grew up in and that much of our family spent time in. So, he got that. He worked a couple more months, worked a couple more seasons, and then he worked. He got enough money to bring my mother here and my oldest and oldest brother, Walter. And then from there it was just a group effort. My mother and father worked. They brought my uncle over here. They stayed in the house that I grew up in. All three of them worked, brought my other uncle here. And so, you know, everyone was just working and it's kind of cool that the house I was born in and kind of grew up in was at one point everyone's home. Everyone who's come from El Salvador to the Tri-Cities, they've spent some time in our family home over in East Kennewick. And then, yeah, shortly after I was born. And now my parents, they took their citizenship test. It was pretty cool. A veteran who lived across the street from us, a World War Two veteran. He was like one of the biggest supporters of my parents. He would take them to go try to take their citizenship test. At one point, my parents tell me a story of where he like was kind of cheating, telling my mother to say yes to questions and say no to other questions. But, you know, it was a cool family effort and I count him as part of our family as well. We call him grandpa. He's since passed away. But, you know, he was he was a great man in our lives as well, who lived right across the street. 00;06;08;25 - 00;06;12;16 Robert Bauman That's quite a story. So, what are your parents’ names, by the way? 00;06;12;17 - 00;06;19;11 Jerry Martinez Yeah. Sorry. My father's name is Mario Martinez, and my mother's name is Sonia de Carmen Martinez. 00;06;19;13 - 00;06;25;18 Robert Bauman Okay, so when your father made the journey, they were already together, right? 00;06;25;20 - 00;06;43;03 Jerry Martinez When my father kind of got recruited by the military, him and my mother had already been together for a couple of years, and they had our oldest, their oldest son, my oldest brother, Walter. He was about two or three at the time that he came over here. 00;06;43;05 - 00;06;54;17 Robert Bauman When your father got here and eventually your mother came here, were there many other El Salvadorians here at the time? Was there much of a community in that respect? 00;06;54;24 - 00;07;14;09 Jerry Martinez No, I don't think so. And I think even now to this day, I think there's a growing population here. But most of the Salvadorians I know in this area are like related to me, my cousins, uncles and aunts. I think most of them are probably family. And since then, a couple of a couple more people have moved here. But I think it's been a smaller population. 00;07;17;11 - 00;07;24;01 Robert Bauman Right. So. So you were born here? Raised here. How was your experience kind of growing up in in the Tri-Cities and your perspective on sort of the Hispanic community, larger Hispanic community at a time and now? 00;07;38;29 - 00;08;04;20 Jerry Martinez Yeah, I think growing up here was an experience because it didn't feel like I was too much of an outsider. There was a large Mexican population in my area, in my schools. I say I was born and raised here. My family heritage is from El Salvador, but I was kind of raised like in a Mexican culture, because that's where that's where all your friends are from. That's where the people you hang out with, are from and sort of their family traditions come from as well. So, I think I just picked up a lot of Mexican culture as well growing up here. In my early years from elementary to middle school, it's kind of funny. I didn't really like speaking Spanish because many of my Mexican friends said I had a weird accent or had a funny accent and I think it's because of growing up some of the things I picked up from my parents, the words we would say, the type of Spanish they use is just slightly different. Some of the slang is different. I sort of resorted to only speaking English because I thought I had a funny Spanish accent. But it turns out it was probably just a Salvadoreño accent. Just last year I got to revisit El Salvador and I realized a lot of my Spanish now is influenced by Mexican heritage and Mexican traditions. For instance, in El Salvador, we use vos to say you and ustedes, but I grew up sort of using ustedes, ¿Como estas tu? Just these sort of little cultural things I picked up growing up here in the Tri-Cities. One of the things my parents always made clear to us was that education was extremely important to them. At one point my father was working a nightshift job at Tyson at the meat factory up here, and he was getting good money. He was on track to be a manager to gain more money to get a promotion. But my older siblings were struggling in school, and I was struggling a little bit in school, just kind of slacking off, being class clown or whatever. My father kind of sat us down one day and told us, I don't remember. I was really young at the time, so I don't remember it, but I guarantee my older siblings remember it a little bit more. He sat us down and he talked to us about how school was extremely important and how we need to prioritize that in our lives. The reason our parents came here was to give us a better life and school is the key to that equation. So, he switched himself. He said, “Hey, I'm on track to be a manager. I'm trying to get a promotion here, but I'm going to switch to a day job because I think me being on the night shift is… I'm not as involved in y'all's lives. And I think me being involved is going to help you will be more successful in school.” So, he switched to that and to that daytime shift and it kind of helped a little bit. But my oldest brother, he struggled a bit in high school and his senior year he dropped out. And this is just another reminder of how important education was. My father was very frustrated with him. I mean, he kicked him out of the house. My oldest brother was 18 at the time. That was just a reminder to me that education is extremely important to my family and to us to progress in this country and to support our family for the future. 00;11;02;10 - 00;11;10;16 Robert Bauman Right. So then how did that going forward for you in terms of continuing your education, what did that mean for you going forward? 00;11;10;18 - 00;11;32;28 Jerry Martinez Yeah, after my oldest brother... I had an oldest brother, sister and a brother, so I'm the youngest of four. My oldest brother, he dropped out of high school and my father kicked him out. Next in line, my sister, she graduated high school and she was a bit of a troublemaker, though, so my parents were really happy when she went to CBC. She got into that dental hygienist program, got a house, got married, has like three kids now. I think she's been a great example to me of what education can do for you at a young age. She got a house, she had a boat and all these cool little toys. And I was like, this is the American dream, really. My sister is achieving it. Next in line was my brother and he followed the same path, went to CBC, got into the radiology technician program, and became a radiology technician, doing MRI's, doing X-rays at some of the local hospitals. I kind of thought through them that there was a route through education. When I was a junior or senior in high school, I went to Kennewick High School, my best friend at the time, Vidal Aguilar, also coming from a Mexican family, I see him sort of filling out the application for WSU. And I remember at the time I didn't even know you had to apply for college. I didn't even know there was like a restrictions. There were people that they weren't going accept. There's people that they were going to accept. I just imagine everyone after high school, you just went to college and that was your route. I'm very thankful that he knew somehow through someone in his family that you had to apply. And I kind of picked that up and I had to apply as well. But in high school, I wasn't the greatest student, so it took me a while to get accepted. But after some time and that's another story. After some time, I got accepted and my family was very happy, I was very happy, and I was the first one to go away to a four year university for college. And just two years ago I became the first in my family to graduate from a four-year institution from Washington State University in Pullman, and I've seen already in the short two years since graduating, the impact it's had on my family and on myself. And so, I think I've kind of seen that education as a value in my family. And I want to continue supporting education for people like me, people who grew up in the similar background as me as well. 00;13;38;24 - 00;13;43;08 Robert Bauman I know you are the new executive director. 00;13;43;10 - 00;13;44;15 Jerry Martinez Yeah, I mean, yeah. 00;13;44;19 - 00;13;57;06 Robert Bauman For the downtown Pasco Development Authority. So how did how did that come about? Had you been involved in other sort of community organizations prior to this? 00;13;57;08 - 00;14;16;11 Jerry Martinez Yeah. So, it's cool. When I when I went away for college, I think I've sort of was forced to come to… I was forced to face my identity again in a different way. Whereas here in the Tri-Cities, you know, I grew up around a lot of the people that I was, that came from a similar background as me. And just like and university you go to you, you're around a different environment, around different people. I faced my identity in a different way again. And I realize that, I have an opportunity here to make an impact on my community back home and an impact on the community here at Washington State. So I got involved with community led organizations, the MECHA at WSU, different Latino organizations at WSU, the Chicanx, the Latinx Student Center. I was an uncertified senator for the student government. I think I took a liking to being involved in community and building a sense of community, whereas I felt strongly here in the Tri-Cities at Washington, WSU Pullman, I had to sort of build that in collaboration with others of the Latino community. I kind of took this love for community work for being a part of something bigger than myself. But my education, my degree was in finance, so I was on this track of finance. I had my senior year, I had a contract already signed to go to Boeing after graduation, but I graduated in 2020, the year of the COVID 19 pandemic. So halfway through my second semester, I believe, we went fully online, we went fully remote. I moved back in with my parents. I was unsure of what was going to happen to me after graduation. But, you know, we pushed through. I graduated online, I waited a couple of months and that contract with Boeing was rescinded. They canceled the contract, so I was left to sort of look for a job again in a very difficult time. And I decided to just look locally and see what was around so I could stay with my parents, save up a little bit of money. And I found this job as an emergency relief organizer for the United Farm Workers Foundation. And that to me, I immediately jumped on that opportunity. For me, my parents have worked in the fields, have worked as farm workers their entire lives. For me to be able to contribute to that community as an organizer for the UFW Foundation was huge. For eight months, my car was my office. I had cones, tables, the largest supply of masks I could ever ask for in my car. And what I do with our team is just, you know, travel around different cities and communities in eastern Washington. And we set up these sort of mobile clinics where we would let farmworkers know of their rights, some of the sick pay that is allowed to them, what to do if they if they're feeling symptoms of COVID 19 and just give them basic supplies, masks that are comfortable to wear while you're working out in the fields, hand sanitizer, hats, whatever gear they need. And so, we did that for some time. And then, you know, wildfire smoke was rampant, rummaging through like all of the West Coast and farmworkers still had to work through that, so we supported farmworkers in some K-95 masks, some state work trying to get some farmworkers in our state the protections they needed when wildfire smoke is at a very toxic level for people working outside. For eight months, I just worked as an organizer for farmworkers. And I think it was a change in my career that that was that was exciting for me and my family. For the first time, I could actually like sort of explain to my family what I'm doing for work, and it made clear, direct sense to them. When I had my internship, you know, at the at the company in Seattle, I tried to explain to my parents what I'm doing, but they just didn't really relate much to what they were doing. They knew they knew that that was the kind of job I was going to take on. But they were like, “Okay, cool. Like, I don't really understand it, but that's what you do. You sit on a computer and open Excel spreadsheets or whatever.” But when I worked as an organizer, it was so cool to be able to tell my parents, “This is what I'm doing” or “Hey, we're supporting this legislation to get farmworkers a pathway to citizenship.” Things that like were materially clear to my parents I was able to explain to them. That job was temporary, though it was contract-to-contract. I started looking for a different job, and I found this job with the Group Health Foundation here in the Tri-Cities as well. For a year, I kind of worked in the background of philanthropy and supporting our communities in Washington again. The philanthropy was mostly focused on serving our communities here in the state of Washington. I think that was one of my strongest assets during the interview process was I just have a clear love for our communities here in Washington. This is a place me and my parents call home. I want to continue doing the work for the state of Washington and here in the Tri-Cities as well. And I did that for some time. I was just having lunch one day with another member of our community, Gabrielle Portugal and Ruben, one of our program officers. And they were like, “Hey, we were looking for an executive director, Jerry, you should think of applying.” And so, I applied and I think again my love for this community, my energy to sort of support our farmworkers, our community, the people with a similar background as me and my parents. I think that shines through again. This Thursday will be my first official first day as the executive director. I haven't started yet. 00;20;15;24 - 00;20;27;17 Robert Bauman Can you talk a little bit about the downtown Pasco development Authority? What sorts of things does that organization do? What sorts of things would you like will you be doing as executive director going forward? 00;20;27;17 - 00;20;55;22 Jerry Martinez Yeah, so it started, I think in 2014 and it was created as a sort of engine for economic development in the downtown Pasco area. Through its time is with different leaders, it's just taken a different sort of flavor of that. But I think all in all, the purpose of the organization is to really celebrate the culture of our community in the downtown area, make dreams come true. I think I look at some of the stores down there in downtown, shops for quinceañeras, local businesses, local taco shops, bakeries, salons where people can throw weddings, events, quinceañeras. I think it's just a cool way that we can also support people who come to this country and come to this area and have a dream. And we can really support their dream and becoming a reality in downtown Pasco. And I think it's a growing area. And I think as things grow, it's common for spaces to lose touch with their origin or the history of their community. I think this is an opportunity that we can really hold on to some of the history of our community in a way that supports businesses, in a way that supports community members and supports our community in general. Some of the things I'm hoping to do is, you know, downtown Pasco is also one of the areas where we have the densest population of homeless folks. And I know that their success moving forward is intertwined with the success of the organization and the success of downtown. And I want to take a more public stance, a more a stronger stance in trying to support them and partnering with some of our shelters around the area to really get them a place to stay, get them employment opportunities. I think there’s going to be a cool way to do that, that's aligned with our mission as well. 00;22;33;06 - 00;23;21;03 Robert Bauman Great. You talked earlier about your work with the UFW was traveling around and distributing mask. With COVID, studies shown it's had more of an impact, a higher case rates among, in Washington state, Hispanic communities, African-American communities. Especially with the work that you did with that, what sort of impact did you see or have you seen over these last couple of years or so in terms of the impact of COVID on the community and efforts to kind of address some of that impact? 00;23;21;06 - 00;23;46;04 Jerry Martinez Yeah, I think probably some of the biggest impact is just related to work. Most of the impact is related to work, I believe. When I especially when I was an organizer with the UFW Foundation, one… many people weren’t educated. They weren't told about some of the new policies in Washington to deal with COVID 19. Many weren’t told about if you get sick, if you're feeling symptoms, you're allowed to take two weeks off no matter what that is guaranteed to you as a worker here in the state of Washington. I think even on the flip side of that, even if they did know about that, many people, them not going into work is them not collecting a paycheck. For you to be sick for two weeks, that's two weeks off work. You got bills to pay, you got a family to support. And I think, you know, when you're working as a farm worker, much of your pay, it's all about how much crops can you pick, how many buckets of cherries can you dump in our boxes? It's really tied to like the amount of productivity, to what you produce as a worker. I can just see like there's huge economic impacts, one in folks not wanting to get off work and two even if they're allowed that time off work, they're missing out on paychecks and you're not getting paid too much and this is a seasonal job. So, just the impacts of that on them economically are huge. Health wise as well. You have to go into these spaces. While many of us were able to sort of work from home, I got a laptop sent to me and I was able to take meetings from home and do a lot of my work at home in the safety of my home and my room away from other folks. Many of our communities had to go out to work while there was this big pause in people going to their workplaces and doing things. I don't think there was ever a break for farmer working communities and our Hispanic community at large in that area as well. I think it was clear that it was going to hit them harder. And I think another piece of it is— and this this happened to everyone but I think in a different way for Hispanic communities— just the mental health, the toll it takes on you to not be able to see your family as much anymore. Before COVID, even my family, we'd have huge gatherings for birthdays, for celebrations of people graduating high school. In the years since COVID has happened, I have seen a huge decline in us getting together. It feels like everyone's a little bit more separated now. I don't know if we're ever going to go back to that time where we're always together because of just the two years of this instance of staying alone, staying with your immediate family only, and not getting together in big gatherings, I think that has played a… it has definitely shifted the culture a bit, shifted some of the some of the family aspects for our Hispanic community. 00;26;38;07 - 00;27;17;18 Robert Bauman As a young person stepping into this position, you talked about some of the things you see and one thing you were talking about homelessness that might interest that. Are there other things you see going forward? Either for the downtown association or just for community organizations in general, things that you see that you would love to address or think that this younger generation might be in position to address? 00;27;17;21 - 00;27;37;23 Jerry Martinez Yeah, I think I saw this clearly when I worked at the Group Health Foundation. My direct supervisor, our vice president of programs, Carmen Berkley, she was a great mentor to me, a great boss. And, you know, one day we were talking with one of our local leaders. This man, he was the board chair for the DPD. He's the president of this other Hispanic organization. He's the lead for, you know, this other organization. And he's just got his hands in so many places. He's doing so much. And my boss, she tells me, “Jerry, there's no… what's the leadership development like in the Tri-Cities? Why is it just one guy taking charge of everything? How can we help him and support him? How come I don't see you taking leadership positions?” And I just thought to myself, actually I don't know. So, I think, one of the things for our youth, especially in the Hispanic community, is just there's no clear direction of like what happens after. I think school is like a huge priority, but there's no sense of familiarity with what comes after that. I think many of us as first-generation citizens and first-generation college graduates, we sort of graduate high school, we graduate universities, go to college, trade schools or whatever. And then we think to ourselves, What's next, though? I think its been so clear in my life to this point what is needed to get done. And then afterwards you're like, well, I don't know what to do next. I felt that as well. I think that's a piece to really… an opportunity for our youth here, and I hope I get to be a part of that in the downtown Pasco Development and in other areas of just being one small example of what our youth here in the area can do. Some of the knowledge, some of the values we've picked up from our community. I felt extremely supported by other families, by our Latino community in the area, and I just want to give it back. I think there's many young folks just like me ready and willing to do that as well. It's just a matter of finding them and letting them know there's opportunities out here, out here for them to do that. 00;29;33;11 - 00;29;41;22 Robert Bauman If you had one piece of advice for a first-generation college student who is a freshman coming in fall semester, what would that be? 00;29;41;25 - 00;30;03;11 Jerry Martinez It would just be like, remember what got you to this point, because whatever that was, it's going to get you through to the end. Whether that's family, whether that's your own motivation to do something and also like you're going to figure things out. When I first got to college, before I even started my first class, I changed majors three times. Part of you being here is for you to figure things out and part of you being here is to really just change the trajectory of your entire family for years to come. People don't realize how huge it is for them to even be in that classroom, taking that seat. It's so huge for our families and it's so huge for our community. 00;30;30;12 - 00;30;52;14 Robert Bauman Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned changing your major a few times. I think some students come in. This is, you know, because their parents have told them, you must do this. And most college students change their major at least once, right? So, I always encourage people to be open, right. Actually, as an incoming first year student, be open. You may decide on something. Right. I fully agree with what you said. I get excited when they tell me they're undecided. Good. Take lots of different classes to figure out what you want to do. 00;31;02;10 - 00;31;23;15 Jerry Martinez And even then, I graduated with finance, and I wouldn't say I'm particularly in a finance job, so I think it doesn't tie you to anything. It's really about the experience you craft for yourself that is going to get you opportunities after college. Don't stress on it too much on majors, none of that stuff. It seems huge in the moment, but you'll figure it out. 00;31;25;21 - 00;31;32;01 Robert Bauman Right? Right. The job you get isn't going to necessarily have the name of your major. 00;31;32;04 - 00;31;35;03 Jerry Martinez That's so true. 00;31;35;05 - 00;31;56;28 Robert Bauman Is there anything that we haven't asked you about? Either related to your family story or something you talked about in terms of education and community stuff that you would like to talk about? 00;31;57;04 - 00;32;17;29 Jerry Martinez Yeah, one of the other things is my old job. I had just been coming into this executive director role. I've thought about myself as a leader and sort of what has inspired me. What are some of the traits I want to be exemplifying as a leader? I always think back to my parents, and I just think about the natural leadership that is born of immigrants to this country, the natural leadership of my father to be the first one to make this journey, the first one to sort of feel things out and just work to bring the rest of my family here. That's leadership qualities that I can't even name, but I think is so clear to me that that's the kind of leader I want to be, someone who's here for my family, someone who's here to support others, to get things going for the people around me. For my mother, she's the greatest example of leading with love. I think my mom has always just led with love in a way that I want to be a leader as well. There are times where we think as a first-generation American in this country, there's times that I think, “This topic's a little complicated. Maybe my parents just won't really understand.” They consistently surprise me, because they just have this sort of love for people that I'm like, “You do get it.” I don't have to explain these huge higher-level topics and these isms and how they manifest and trickle down to us. My parents really understand things in a lens of love for people, love for community. And yeah, I think that's probably the only thing I would like to add. Everything I've done to this point has been in honor of my parents and in honor of my family. That's part of my motivation and success so far. I got a really great support system and really great examples in my parents and family. 00;34;09;05 - 00;34;32;08 Robert Bauman Yeah, that's very clear from what you talk to us about. Well, I think those are the questions I have. Really appreciate you coming in, Jerry, and sharing both your family's story and your story and things you've been involved in. Thank you. Espanol: Robert Bauman: Vamos a avanzar y comenzar puedo iniciar con las presentaciones y luego hacerte unas preguntas y básicamente una conversación. Mi nombre es Robert Bauman. Estoy realizando una entrevista oral de historia con Jerry Martínez. La fecha el día de hoy es 14 de junio del 2022. La entrevista está siendo realizada en el campo de Washington State University de Tri-Cities. Entonces Jerry podrías decir tu nombre completo y deletrearlo para nosotros. Jerry Martínez: Si es Jerry Martínez, J-e-r-r-y M-a-r-t-í-n-e-z. Bauman: Correcto gracias, entonces comencemos. Si pudiéramos hablar un poco de la historia de tu familia, si pudiéramos sus orígenes, su historia de migración a los estados unidos, a Tri-Cities. Entonces cuando llego tu familia aquí, como fue la historia y porque, como, ¿cuándo y porque vinieron aquí? Martínez: Si, y no se los años y las fechas exactas pero todo esto es sobre cosas que les he preguntado. Les he hecho esta pregunta muchas veces así que he reunido una colección de historias hasta este punto. Pero mis padres nacieron en El Salvador en los 60s o 70s y vivieron en una zona muy rural en una especie de montanas alas afuera de Sesori el Aureral, lo busque en los mapas de Google y está muy remoto que no tiene nombre en los mapas de Google. Al final de los 80s una guerra civil estallo en El Salvador y mi papa fue uno de los jóvenes reclutados, olvide que lado de la guerra, pero él se encontraba con 23 o 24 en la parte de atrás de una camioneta militar dirigiéndose a una especie de campamento para ser entrenado, tú sabes para ser un soldado en la guerra y ganar el coraje. Se me olvido toda la historia, pero era muy interesante. Él estaba en la parte de atrás de esta camioneta y estaban a miles de millas de su pueblo y saco el valor de saltar del vehículo y justo después del otro joven hombre salto y llegaron a la estación de autobuses de San Miguel o la estación del área de San Miguel y encontró su camino de regreso. Le pregunte a mi padre de porque o cómo fue que los militares no los siguieron o tú sabes porque no le dispararon. Él me dijo que porque si lo seguían treinta personas más los seguirían huyendo también, así fue como fue uno de los suertudos en escapar. Cuando volvió a casa con su madre, su madre le dijo, mi abuela Adela le dijo “Tienes que irte, prefiero que estes a miles de millas de distancia y vivo a que te quedes aquí y ellos te encuentren” ella sabía en su corazón que se había escapado de ellos por ahora, pero volverían por él y no va a ser bonito cuando vuelvan por él de nuevo. Ella fue la primera que le dijo que tenía que irse y así fue como inicio su viaje a los Estados Unidos creo que cuando tenía mi edad 24 hiso su viaje a través de El Salvador, Honduras, México todo hacia Estados Unidos. Él me dijo que su viaje por la frontera fue en un camión de plátano, el solo se acostó debajo de unas cajas de plátano que lo tapaban y así fue como cruzo la frontera. Como muchos fue así como encontró su camino al Central Valley of California para trabajar en el campo. El trabajo del campo es muy migratorio, trabajo en varios lugares del centro de California y encontró un lugar aquí tú sabes a través del West Coast, arriba y abajo, hay muchas oportunidades para trabajar en el campo. Mi padre hiso esa ruta por un tiempo hasta que llego aquí en los Tri-Cities. Encontró este lugar hermoso tú sabes había descansos cortos entre temporadas. Podías trabajar todo el año y ahorrar un poco de dinero para comprarte una pequeña casa de remolque aquí, así que decidió quedarse aquí en Tri-Cities. La única comunicación que tenía con mi madre era a través de cartas y al poco tiempo de que llego a los Estados Unidos desafortunadamente su madre murió. Mi abuela murió y por un tiempo no le escribió a mi madre, el solo trabajaba. Pero después de trabajar en el campo por un tiempo, gano suficiente dinero para conseguirse un lugar pequeño una casa remolque en la que nosotros, en la que yo crecí y en la que gran parte de mi familia paso tiempo, él tenía eso. El trabajo un par de meses más, un par de temporadas más y trabajo más, reunió suficiente dinero para traer a mi mama aquí y mi hermano mayor, Walter y a partir de ahí fue un trabajo en equipo. Mi mama y mi papa trabajaron y trajeron a mi tío aquí se quedaron en la casa en la que crecí. Los tres trabajaron y trajeron a mi otro tío y entonces tú sabes todos trabajaban y es muy interesante que la casa en la que nací y más o menos crecí a cierto punto fue la casa de todos. Todos los que han venido de El Salvador a los Tri-Cities han pasado tiempo en la casa de la familia en el este de Kennewick y entonces poco después yo nací y ahora mis padres, ellos tomaron su examen de ciudadanía fue muy impresionante. Un veterano que vivía en la calle de enfrente, un veterano de la segunda guerra mundial él fue uno de los mayores apoyos para mis padres. El los llevaba a que intentaran tomar su examen de ciudadanía. En un punto mis padres me contaron una historia donde el hacia un tipo de trampa, le decía a mi mama que dijera si en algunas preguntas y no a otras. Pero tú sabes fue un buen esfuerzo familiar y lo contamos como parte de la familia también. Lo llamamos abuelo, el ya falleció, pero sabes él fue un gran hombre en nuestras vidas que vivía en la casa de en frente. Bauman: Esa es una gran historia y cuáles son los nombres de tus padres, por cierto. Martínez: El nombre de mi papa es Mario Martínez y el nombre de mi mama es Sonia de Carmen Martínez. Bauman: Bien entonces cuando tu padre hiso el viaje, ellos ya estaban juntos cierto. Martínez: Cuando mi padre fue reclutado por los militares él y mi madre ya habían estado juntos por un par de años y tenían al mayor, su hijo mayor, mi hermano mayor, Walter. Él tenía más o menos dos o tres años en ese tiempo cuando vino para acá. Bauman: ¿Cuándo tu padre llega aquí y después tu mama, había muchos salvadoreños aquí en ese tiempo? ¿Había una comunidad en ese aspecto? Martínez: No, no creo incluso ahora. Creo que ahí un crecimiento de población aquí, pero la mayoría de los salvadoreños que conozco en el área son familiares, mis primos, mis tíos creo que la mayoría son familiares probablemente. Desde entonces unos cuantos más se han mudado aquí, pero creo que es una población más pequeña. Bauman: ¿Cierto, entonces tu naciste aquí? Criado aquí, como fue tu experiencia al crecer aquí en Tri-Cities y tu perspectiva de la comunidad hispana, la comunidad hispana más grande en ese entonces y ahora. Martínez: Si, creo que al crecer aquí fue una experiencia porque no me sentí como un forastero. Había una población grande de mexicanos en mi área y en mi escuela. Nacido y criado aquí, la herencia de mi familia es de El Salvador, pero fui criado con una cultura mexicana porque es de donde todos mis amigos eran. Era de donde la gente con la que te juntabas venia igual que sus tradiciones. Así que agarre mucha cultura mexicana al crecer aquí. Al principio de mis años de la primaria y secundaria fue chistoso no me gustaba hablar español porque mis amigos mexicanos decían que tenía un acento diferente o chistoso creo que porque al crecer con mis papas se me pegaron ciertos modos de decir ciertas cosas eran un poco diferente. El lenguaje corriente es diferente. Me reserve a hablar inglés mayormente porque sentía que tenía un acento en español diferente, pero resulta que probablemente era el acento salvadoreño. Justo el año pasado revisité El Salvador y me di cuenta de que la mayoría de mi español ahora esta influenciado por mi herencia mexicana y tradiciones mexicanas. Por ejemplo, en El Salvador decimos vos para decir tu o ustedes, pero yo crecí usando ustedes, ¿“como estas tu?”. Solo esas cosas pequeñas culturales que agarre al crecer aquí en Tri-Cities. Una de las cosas que mis padres siempre pusieron en claro para nosotros fue que la educación era muy importante. En cierto punto mi padre estaba trabajando en el turno nocturno en Tyson, en la fábrica de carne aquí y ganaba buen dinero. Estaba en dirección para ser supervisor, ganar más dinero y conseguir un ascenso, pero mis hermanos mayores estaban batallando en la escuela y yo también estaba batallando un poco en la escuela, aflojando un poco, estaba siendo el payaso de la clase o algo. Mi padre nos sentó un día y nos dijo, no me acuerdo, yo era muy joven en ese entonces así que no me acuerdo, pero de seguro mis hermanos mayores si se acuerdan mejor. Él nos sentó y nos hable sobre sobre como la escuela era extremamente importante y como tenía que ser prioridad en nuestras vidas. La razón porque nuestros padres vinieron aquí fue para darnos una vida mejor y que la escuela era la llave de la ecuación. Así que él se cambió, él dijo “Oye estoy en camino a ser supervisor, estoy intentando conseguir un ascenso, pero me voy a cambiar al turno de día porque al estar en el turno nocturno no estoy presente en sus vidas y creo que al estar más envuelto va a ayudar a que tengan más excito en la escuela.” Entonces el cambio de turno al de día y ayudo un poco pero mi hermano mayor batallo un poco en la preparatoria y se salió en su ano de señoría. Esto es otro recordatorio de lo importante que la educación era. Mi padre estaba frustrado con él y me refiero lo hecho de la casa. Mi hermano mayor tenía 18 en ese entonces. Eso fue un recordatorio para mí de lo importante que la educación era para mi familia y para que nosotros progresáramos en este país y apoyar a nuestra familia en el futuro. Bauman: ¿Entonces eso que significo en términos de continuar con tu educación, eso que significo para ti para avanzar? Martínez: Si, después de mi hermano mayor, yo tenía un hermano mayor, una hermana y un hermano, así que yo soy el menor de cuatro. Mi hermano mayor se salió de la preparatoria y mi padre lo hecho. La próxima en línea era mi hermana ella se graduó de la preparatoria y era un poco problemática, ruda así que mis padres estuvieron muy contentos cuando entro a CBC. Entro en ese programa higiene dental, saco una casa, se casó y tiene como tres hijos ahora. Pienso que ella ha sido un gran ejemplo para mi sobre lo que la educación puede hacer por ti a una edad temprana. Compro una casa, tuvo un bote y toda clase de pequeños juguetes interesantes y yo pensaba que ese era el verdadero sueño americano y mi hermana lo estaba consiguiendo. El siguiente en línea era mi hermano y el siguió el mismo camino, fue a CBC y entro en el programa de técnico radiología y se hico técnico de radiología, haciendo resonancias magnéticas, haciendo rayos x en algunos de los hospitales locales. Pensaba que a través de ellos había una ruta a través de la educación. Cuando era junior o senior en la preparatoria iba a la escuela preparatoria de Kennewick, mi mejor amigo en ese tiempo era Vidal Aguilar que venía de una familia mexicana. Lo mire llenando la aplicación para WSU y recuerdo que en ese tiempo no sabía que tenía que aplicar para la universidad. Ni sabía que había restricciones, que había gente que no sería aceptada. Había gente que sería aceptada. Yo me imaginaba que todos después de ir a la preparatoria solo iban a la universidad, que esa era la ruta. Estoy muy agradecido que el conocía a alguien en su familia que sabía que tenías que aplicar. Así entendí que tenía que aplicar también. Pero en la preparatoria no fui el mejor estudiante así que me tomo un tiempo ser aceptado, pero después de un tiempo y esa es otra historia. Después de un tiempo me aceptaron y mi familia estaba muy feliz, yo estaba muy feliz, y yo era el primero en ir lejos a una universidad de cuatro años de carrera. Justo hace dos años me volví el primero en mi familia en graduarse de una institución de cuatro años en la universidad de Washington State en Pullman y he visto en los dos cortos años desde graduarme el impacto que esto ha tenido en mi familia y en mí mismo. Así he visto el valor de la educación en mi familia y quiero continuar apoyando la educación para personas como yo, personas que crecieron con una historia similar a la mía. Bauman: Se que eres el nuevo director ejecutivo. Martínez: Si, supongo que sí. Bauman: Para la autoridad de desarrollo del centro de Pasco. ¿Como sucedió eso? ¿Has estado envuelto en otro tipo de organización de la comunidad antes de esto? Martínez: Si, es interesante. Cuando fui a la universidad, fui un poco forzado, fui forzado a encarar mi identidad en un modo diferente. Ya sea aquí en Tri-Cities sabes crecí alrededor de mucha agente con la que veníamos de un fondo similar como yo. Justo, así como a la universidad que vas estas en un ambiente diferente, alrededor de gente diferente. Encaré mi identidad de un modo diferente de nuevo y me di cuenta de que tenía la oportunidad aquí de tener un impacto en mi comunidad en mi hogar e impactar la comunidad del estado de Washington. Así que me involucre con las organizaciones lidérales de la comunidad, la MECHA en WSU, diferentes organizaciones latinas en WSU, los Chicanx, el centro estudiantil de Latinx. Yo era el senador no certificado por el gobierno estudiantil. Pienso que me gusto estar involucrado en la comunidad y construir un sentido de comunidad, ya sea que tenía un sentir fuerte aquí en Tri-Cities en Washington, WSU en Pullman, tuve que como construir eso en colaboración con otros de la comunidad latina. Le tome amor a trabajar por la comunidad, por ser parte de algo más grande que yo. Pero mi educación, mi diploma era en finanzas, así que estaba en camino de finanzas. En mi ano de señoría ya tenía un contrato firmado para ir a Boeing después de la graduación, pero me gradué en el 2020 el ano de la pandemia de COVID-19. Así que, a la mitad de mi segundo semestre, creo que fui clases en línea completamente, fuimos a clases remotas completamente. Me mude de regreso con mis padres. No estaba seguro de lo que me iba a pasar después de la graduación, pero sabes lo superamos. Me gradué en línea esperé un par de meses y el contrato con Boeing fue rencendido. Ellos cancelaron el contrato así que me quede a buscar trabajo en tiempos difíciles. Decidí buscar localmente y ver lo que estaba alrededor así podría quedarme con mis padres y ahorrar un poco de dinero. Encontré este trabajo como organizador de alivio de emergencia para la fundación de trabajadores de United Farm y yo me lancé a esa oportunidad inmediatamente. Para mí, mis padres habían trabajado en los campos, habían trabajado como trabajadores agrícolas todas sus vidas. Para mi ser capaz de contribuir a la comunidad como organizador de la fundación de UFW era enorme. Por ocho meses mi carro era mi oficina, tenía conos, mesas, el suministro más grande de máscaras que pudiera pedir en mi carro. Lo que hacía con nuestro equipo, solo era, tú sabes viajar alrededor a diferente ciudades y comunidades en el este de Washington. Organizábamos estas clínicas móviles donde dejábamos saber a los trabajadores agrícolas sus derechos, sobre la paga por enfermedad que se les permitía, que hacer si sentían síntomas de COVID-19 y darles suministros básicos, mascaras que fueran cómodas para usar mientras trabajaban en los campos, desinfectante de manos, gorros cualquier equipo que necesitaran, hice eso por un tiempo y luego sabes el alboroto del humo del fuego forestal. Hurgando por toda la costa del este y los trabajadores del campo aun tenían que trabajar por todo eso. Apoyamos a los trabajadores agrícolas con máscaras K-95. Algo de trabajo del estado tratando de conseguir la protección necesaria para los trabajadores agrícolas cuando el humo del fuego forestal estaba a niveles muy tóxicos para que la gente trabajara afuera. Por ocho meses solo trabaje como organizador para trabajadores agrícolas y creo que fue ese cambio en mi carrera que fue tan emocionante para mí y mi familia. Por primera vez le podía explicar a mi familia en lo que trabajaba y fue claro, directo y tenía sentido para ellos. Cuando tuve mi primera pasantía, sabes en la compañía de Seattle traté de explicarles a mis padres lo que hacía, pero ellos no se relacionaban mucho con lo que ellos hacían. Ellos sabían que eso era el tipo de trabajo que yo iba a hacer, pero ellos decían “O si interesante, no entiendo mucho pero eso es lo que haces, te sientas frente a una computadora y abres páginas de Excel o lo que sea” pero cuando trabaje como organizador era tan interesante poder decirles a mis padres: “Esto es lo que hago” o “ey estamos apoyando esta legislación para conseguirles a los trabajadores agrícolas un camino a la ciudadanía” cosas así eran claras para mis padres y yo era capaz de explicarles. Ese trabajo era temporal, era de contrato a contrato. Empecé a buscar un trabajo diferente y encontré este trabajo con la fundación de Group Health aquí en Tri-Cities también. Por un ano trabaje en el fondo de la filantropía y apoyando nuestras comunidades en Washington de nuevo. La filantropía estaba mayormente enfocada en servir a la comunidad aquí en Washington. Pienso que esa fue una de mis fuerzas más grandes durante el proceso de las entrevistas, que tengo un amor claro por las comunidades aquí en Washington este es el lugar que yo y mis padres llamamos hogar. Quiero seguir trabajando para el estado de Washington y Tri-Cities también y lo hice por un tiempo. Estaba comiendo un día con otro miembro de nuestra comunidad, Gabrielle Portugal y Rubén uno de los oficiales de nuestro programa y ellos dijeron “Estamos buscando un director ejecutivo, Jerry deberías pensar en aplicar” y entonces aplique y pienso que de nuevo mi amor por esta comunidad, mi energía para apoyar a nuestros trabajadores del campo, nuestra comunidad, la gente con historia similar a la mía y la de mis padres. Eso se nota por encima. Este jueves será mi primer día oficial como director ejecutivo, aun no inicio. Bauman: ¿Puedes hablarnos un poco de la autoridad de desarrollo del centro de Pasco? ¿Qué tipo de cosas hace la organización? ¿Qué tipo de cosas estarás haciendo como director ejecutivo de ahora en adelante? Martínez: Si, creo que inicio en el 2014 y fue creada como un tipo motor para el desarrollo de la economía en el área del centro de Pasco. Durante su tiempo ha sido con diferentes lideres y ha tomado un sabor medio diferente debido a eso, pero creo que el propósito de la organización es celebrar la cultura de nuestra comunidad en el área del centro, hacer sueños realidad. Pienso que miro a algunas de las tiendas ahí en el centro, tiendas para quinceañeras, negocios locales, puestos de tacos locales, panaderías, salones donde la gente hace bodas, eventos, quinceañeras. Pienso que es un modo interesante en el que también podamos apoyar a la gente que viene a este país y vienen a esta área y tienen un sueño y nosotros de verdad podemos apoyar su sueño a hacerlo realidad en el centro de Pasco. Creo que es un área en crecimiento y pienso que mientras crece es común que los espacios pierdan ese toque con sus orígenes o la historia de su comunidad. Pienso que es una oportunidad de conservar algo de la historia de nuestra comunidad en un modo que apoye a los negocios en un modo que apoye a los miembros de la comunidad y apoye la comunidad en general. Algunas de las cosas que espero hacer es tú sabes el centro de Pasco es también una de las áreas donde tenemos la población más densa de personas indigentes. Se que su éxito para avanzar esta entre enredado con el éxito de la organización y el éxito del centro y quiero hacer mi postura publica, una postura más fuerte en tratar de apoyarlos. Uniéndonos con algunos de los albergues en el área y conseguirles un lugar donde quedarse, conseguirles oportunidades de trabajo. Pienso que va a haber un modo interesante de hacer eso que este alineado con nuestra misión igual. Bauman: Grandioso, hablaste antes de tu trabajo con la UFW que era viajar y distribuir mascaras. Con el COVID ahí estudios que muestran que tuvo mayor impacto, más casos en la comunidad hispana y african-american en el estado de Washington. Especialmente con el trabajo que hiciste, que impacto viste o has visto en el transcurso de los dos últimos anos. En términos del impacto de COVID en la comunidad y los esfuerzos de atender esos impactos. Martínez: Si, creo que uno de los impactos más grandes era relacionado con el trabajo. El mayor impacto fue relacionado con el trabajo, creo. Especialmente cuando yo era el organizador en la fundación de UFW mucha de la gente no era educada. Les decían sobre algunas pólizas nuevas en Washington sobre cómo manejar el COVID-19. A muchos no les decían que, si se enfermaban, si sientes síntomas, podías tomarte dos semanas libres sin importar nada, eso era garantizado a ellos como trabajadores aquí en el estado. Pienso que incluso al otro lado de la cara de eso, incluso si ellos sabían al respecto, mucha gente, si ellos no iban al trabajo significaba que no recibirían un cheque. Para estar enfermo por dos semanas eran dos semanas fuera del trabajo. Tienes facturas que pagar y una familia que mantener y creo tú sabes cuando trabajas en el campo la mayor parte de tu paga es lo que produces al cosechar. Cuantos botes de cerezas bacias en el cajón, está conectado con la cantidad de productividad que produces como trabajador. Puedo ver como ahí un gran impacto en la economía, para empezar algunas de las personas no queriendo faltar al trabajo y en segundo si incluso les daban el tiempo libre del trabajo, les haría faltarían los cheques, no les pagan lo suficiente y son trabajos temporales, entonces tan solo el impacto de eso en ellos económicamente era inmenso, en la salud también. Tenías que ir a estos espacios mientras muchos de nosotros podíamos trabajar desde el hogar, yo recibí una computadora y podía hacer juntas desde mi casa y hacer mucho de mi trabajo en la seguridad de mi casa, en mi cuarto lejos de otras personas. Muchas de nuestras comunidades tenían que salir a trabajar mientras había una gran pausa en que la gente saliera a sus trabajos y hacer sus cosas. No pienso que nunca hubiese una pausa para las comunidades de trabajadores del campo y en la comunidad hispana tampoco, pienso que estaba claro que los golpearía más fuerte. Pienso que otra pieza de esto es y esto les ha pasado a todos, pero creo que de diferente modo a las comunidades hispanas. Tan solo la salud mental, la carga que te cae de no poder ver a tu familia mucho. Antes de COVID incluso mi familia, teníamos grandes reuniones para cumpleaños, para celebraciones de graduación de la preparatoria. En los años desde que COVID paso he visto una gran disminución en las reuniones. Se siente como que todos están un poco más separados ahora. No sé si algún día volveremos a ese tiempo donde siempre estábamos juntos, porque en estos dos años de estar solos, estar solo con tu familia inmediata solamente y no reunirse en grandes reuniones, creo que eso ha jugado un gran rol, ha definitivamente desplazado la cultura un poco, desplazado algunos de los aspectos de la familia por nuestra comunidad hispana. Bauman: Como una persona joven que ha subido a esta posición, has hablado sobre algunas de las cosas que vez y una cosa de la que hablabas era los indigentes que te interesan. ¿Ahí algunas otras cosas que veas que avanzan? Ya sea para la asociación del centro o por las organizaciones de la comunidad en general, cosas que tu veas que te gustaría cambiar o piensas que ala generación más joven favorecería en apoyar. Martínez: Si, pienso que lo vi claramente cuando trabajé en la fundación del Group Health. Mi supervisor directo, el vicepresidente nuestros programas Carmen Berkley, ella fue una gran mentora para mí, una gran jefe y sabes un día estábamos hablando con uno de nuestros lideres locales, este hombre estaba en la silla directiva de DPD. Él es el presidente de esta otra organización hispana, tú sabes es el líder de esta organización y tiene sus manos en tantos lugares hace demasiado y mi jefe me dice “Jerry como es el desarrollo directivo en Tri-Cities? ¿Cómo es que un hombre está a cargo de todo? ¿Como podemos apoyarlo y ayudarlo? ¿Como es que no te veo tomando posiciones liderarías?” y pensé que no tenía ni idea. Pienso que una de las cosas para nuestra juventud, especialmente la comunidad hispana es que no hay una dirección clara de lo que pasa después. Pienso que la escuela es una gran prioridad, pero no hay sensación de familiaridad de lo que viene después de eso. Pienso que muchos de nosotros ciudadanos de primera generación y graduados de universidad de primera generación, nos graduamos de la preparatoria, nos graduamos de universidades, vamos a la universidad, escuelas de oficios, o lo que sea y pensamos para nosotros mismos, ¿qué sigue? Creo que ha sido muy claro en mi vida hasta este punto lo que se necesitaba hacer. Entonces, después de eso te quedas de que no sabes lo que tienes que hacer después, yo sentí lo mismo. Creo que es una gran pieza, una oportunidad para nuestra juventud y espero ser parte de eso en el desarrollo del centro de Pasco y en otras áreas, ser solo un ejemplo pequeño de lo que nuestra juventud puede hacer en el área. Algo de la sabiduría, algunos de los valores que tenemos de nuestra comunidad, me sentí muy apoyado por otras familias, por nuestra comunidad latina en el área y solo quiero retribuirles. Pienso que los jóvenes al igual que yo están listos y dispuestos a hacer lo mismo también. Es solo cuestión de encontrarlos y dejarles saber que hay oportunidades ahí afuera, para que ellos lo hagan. Bauman: Si tuvieras una pieza de consejo para los estudiantes de primera generación de la universidad que son novatos en el próximo semestre de otoño. ¿Que sería? Martínez: Solo sería que recuerden lo que tienen hasta este punto, porque lo que sea que es, los va a llevar hasta el final, ya sea familia, que sea motivación personal de hacer algo y que van a descifrar las cosas. Al principio que llegue a la universidad, incluso antes de iniciar mis clases, cambie mi especialidad de estudios tres veces. Parte de ti que está aquí es para descifrar las cosas y otra parte de ti es para en realidad cambiar la trayectoria de tu familia entera por los anos a seguir. La gente no se da cuenta lo grande que es para ellos estar en ese salón, tomar ese asiento, es tan grande para nuestras familias y tan grande para nuestra comunidad. Bauman: Si, es interesante que mencionaste que cambiaste tu especialidad de estudios algunas veces. Pienso que muchos estudiantes vienen solo porque sus padres les dicen que lo hagan y la mayoría de los estudiantes de universidad cambian su especialidad de estudios por lo menos una vez, cierto. Entonces yo siempre los impulso a ser abiertos, cierto, de hecho, como estudiante de primera generación, que sean abiertos, pueden decidir en algo, cierto. Estoy completamente de acuerdo contigo en lo que dijiste. Me emociono cuando me dicen que no se han decidido, bien, tomen muchas clases diferentes para descifrar lo que quieren hacer. Martínez: Incluso entonces me gradué en finanzas y no diría que estoy particularmente en un trabajo de finanzas así que no pienso que te amarra a nada. Es más, sobre las experiencias que formas para ti mismo lo que te va a dar las oportunidades después de la universidad. No te estreses mucho en la especialidad de estudios ni nada de esas cosas. Se ve enorme en ese momento, pero lo descifraras. Bauman: ¿Cierto? Cierto, el trabajo que consigas no necesariamente tendrá el mismo nombre que tu especialidad de tus estudios. Martínez: Eso es tan cierto. Bauman: ¿Hay algo que no te hemos preguntado al respecto? Ya sea relacionado con la historia de tu familia o algo que haigas hablado en términos de educación y comunidad de lo que te gustaría hablar. Martínez: Si, una de las cosas es mi viejo trabajo. Apenas llegue a este trabajo de director ejecutivo. Me he visto como un líder y eso me ha inspirado. ¿Qué características quiero mostrar como líder? Siempre pienso en mis padres y pienso en el liderazgo natural que nace de los inmigrantes de este país, el liderazgo natural de mi familia aquí. Esas cualidades de liderazgo que ni siquiera puedo nombrar, pero creo que es tan claro para mí que es la clase de líder que quiero ser, alguien que está aquí para mi familia, alguien que está aquí para apoyar a otros, que mueve las cosas para la gente que me rodea. Por mi madre, ella es el ejemplo más grande de liderar con amor, pienso que mi mama siempre nos ha guiado con amor de un modo que quiero ser un líder también. Ahí veces donde pensamos que, como estudiantes americanos de primera generación en este país, hay veces que pienso que este tema es un poco complicado, tal vez mis padres no entiendan realmente. Ellos constantemente me sorprenden porque ellos tienen esta especie de amor por la gente que digo “Si entienden”. No tengo que explicar esto temas de nivel más alto, estos términos y como se manifiestan y gotean hacia nosotros. Mis padres realmente entienden las cosas a través de la lente de amor por la gente, amor por la comunidad y si eso es probablemente la única cosa que me gustaría agregar. Todo lo que he hecho hasta este punto ha sido en honor a mis padres, honor a mi familia, es parte de mi motivación y éxito hasta ahorita. Tuve un gran sistema de apoyo y grandes ejemplos de mi s padres y mi familia. Bauman: Claro, eso es muy claro por lo que nos has hablado al respecto. Bueno pienso que esas son las preguntas que tengo. Te apreciamos realmente por venir Jerry y compartir ambas, la historia de tu familia y tu historia y las cosas en las que has estado envuelto. Gracias. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:34:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 10317 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerry Martinez Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Latin American; Hanford Site; Richland, WA, USA Description An account of the resource Jerry Martinez, a first-generation American, shares his family's journey from El Salvador to the United States. His parents fled the civil war in El Salvador and eventually made way to the U.S. through Mexico. Jerry was born and raised in the Tri-Cities, he and his siblings were encouraged to prioritize education. With Jerry becoming the first to graduate from a four-year university. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 14, 2022 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0b20dd276fa5ac4ca837d367c65bf082.JPG 77fb0b56f0b1701be17b5aafb6ce8daf https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89f29cf9702d2c71c70e2a8d3e7b103f.mp4 f8ff582fbae313653484f5f2be4d8f46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Tallent Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: We’re rolling. Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin and I’m conducting an oral history interview with Jerry Tallent on June 15th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Jerry on his experiences working on the Hanford site. Before we begin, Jerry, could you say your name and spell it, please? Jerry Tallent: My name is Jerry Tallent. And that’s J-E-R-R-Y, T-A-L-L-E-N-T. And you’ll have to excuse my speech. Franklin: That’s okay. Thank you very much. So, I guess, let’s start at the beginning. Tell me how you came to Hanford. Tallent: I was running a D8 Cat up on Rattlesnake Mountain for a guy—a friend on the ranch. I was raised on a ranch. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And he came to me and said, you’re the one that drives the D8. And I said, yeah. He said, I want to dig some petrified wood out of Rattlesnake Mountain. So we hauled up the Cat and I dug a bunch of petrified wood. Anyway, when we got done with that, he said, your dad’s leaving the farm. Is you gonna to run it? I said, no, I’m gonna get out. He said, I’ve got a job for you at Westinghouse Hanford in the 308 Building and you’d be working with plutonium. There it is. [LAUGHTER] I went to work for him and I worked inside 308 Lab. I think it’s all gone now, finally. The last building, they had to clean it up—clean the fuel up in it. But I worked there for about eight or nine years. And then an engineer I had, named Bobby Eschenbaum, she wanted me to come down to 305 Building, because, she said, you got a lot of brains. [LAUGHTER] That was a long time ago. [LAUGHTER] So I did. I left 308 Building and went to work for her. The pictures I got there are the stuff I designed and built. I did a lot of it back in our machine shop. I got in trouble with the machinists’ union out there. [LAUGHTER] But they ended up saying, okay, it’s a prototype and if you want any more built, we have to build it. No problem. So they patted me on the back and left, but, boy, they all showed up in force. They were after me. Because the technicians and engineering technicians weren’t union, and the metal fabricators were. So I was stepping on the metal fabricators’ toes. But then they realized it was all R&D—research and development. So they—it’s okay. And I had them build some stuff for me. We became pretty good friends, you know. Franklin: Yeah. Tallent: Yeah, it was after a while, I’d go into their building and—hey, how you doing? [LAUGHTER] Help me out all they could. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Tallent: So that was pretty good. But, yeah, I enjoyed it. We had a couple of problems in the building. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you elaborate on the problems? Tallent: Well, one of them, they sent me downtown to radiation specialists. It was— Franklin: Was that at the time, or recently? Tallent: No, no, that was at the time I was working out there. We worked in gloveboxes. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And we had some plutonium from Arco. As a matter of fact, it was from Karen Silkwood. [LAUGHTER] That sound familiar? Franklin: It doesn’t; I’m sorry. Tallent: It doesn’t? Franklin: No. Karen Silkwood? Tallent: Karen Silkwood was from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And there was a show about her. She defied them, so they—I’d get in trouble with them. So they sabotaged her and said she stole plutonium out of the building. Well, there was no way. You can’t—that stuff, if I had a can of it in here and you had a radiation detector in the corner, it’d go off scale, you know. Franklin: Right. Tallent: So, anyway. It was a sabotage deal. Because she was—what do you call it—telling on them. Franklin: A whistleblower? Tallent: Yes, yes, she was kind of a whistleblower. And I said no. Franklin: And so you had some plutonium from her? Tallent: Well, they’d send it up here. Franklin: Oh, okay. Tallent: And thank you for getting back on the right track. Anyway, I dealt with her, and we went to open up the can and re-can it and put it in our vault. Well, we opened up the outer can. Of course, it’s in a bag, and then another can, which is in another can. Well, we opened up the outer can, and took out the inner can, and the plastic bag looked like it had been on fire. It was burnt to a crisp around the plutonium. Franklin: Oh! Tallent: Yeah, that’s what we said: oh! And my lead that was with me, I looked across and I said, Bob, we’d better get a radiation monitor inside. And he said, well, we got a detector here. And I said, yeah, well, okay. And about that time, I looked across. His gloves were black. And all of a sudden, on his arms, I could see white. And I said, don’t move. Your gloves are rotting off on your arms as we talk. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And I looked over at the door—and the alarm going off, and I looked over at the door. I had two radiation monitors standing there. They come running in with masks on, put a mask on me, and put a mask on Bob. I do have a little piece of plutonium in my lung. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: In my left lung. It’s just a tiny nodule. And Hanford, downtown, said that’s the best place to have it, is in your lung. I said, oh yeah. [LAUGHTER] But they said, no, because as soon as it goes into your lung, your body protects it from you and puts a nodule around it. So I said, okay. So it hasn’t bothered me since ‘80s and ‘90s. I’ve got COPD and emphysema. But that don’t have anything to do with that tumor that’s in there. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: Anyway, that was one incident, and then another one was just in our lab, just on normal. One of the guys that was working with us, he’s dead now. He died of cancer. One of our guys was opening up a can with a can opener. And you know how sharp the lids are. Well, he cut his glove, so he hollered for help, and I ran in with a couple of masks. You had masks always in your drawer, in a bag. If they weren’t in a bag, then you couldn’t use them. But they are always in a bag. And I tore open the bag, and put one on me, and tore open another bag and took it in, and put on him and hit the button for the radiation monitors. And they come in, and they looked in, seeing masks, and—oh boy. [LAUGHTER] So they come in, and what they do is cut the—I’m shaking. They cut the sleeve off your arms and pull them down and then cut the tape on your gloves—your gloves are taped to your arms. You got rubber gloves on. And they’re taped to your arms, so they cut that off. And then slide everything off, and leave it in the glove, and then tape over the glovebox—over the opening. Franklin: Right, right, okay. Tallent: So nothing gets out. And you’re on negative air. It was—you know—if I had to do it over, I’d work out there again. It’d be no problem. Can’t work there now; it ain’t there no more. But just a few minor things here and there. We’ve had a few after that glovebox. Their gloves deteriorate and fall off. We got into the habit of changing them out once a week. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: To keep them from—you get plutonium in there, it deteriorates rubber fast. And we tried the lead-lined—rubber lead-lined gloves, but they were so heavy. So you work in them for 15 minutes, you’re exhausted. So my lead and I, we threw them out and said to hell with them. [LAUGHTER] Shoved them into the glovebox and put on new gloves. Everything—nothing comes out. [COUGH] I’m sorry. Nothing comes out. Everything goes in, and then gets bagged out. Franklin: Right. Tallent: With a sealer. Franklin: Right. Tallent: You get a fork to pull everything, put it in a bag and then pull it out and put it on this table and it puts a seal across it—a double seal. So it was—it was safe. And then we put it in a waste—radiation waste. That’s what they’re working on out there now. Franklin: Right, all that stuff. Tallent: All our crap. [LAUGHTER] Well, not all ours, but—it was stored down in the basement at 308. Not many people—I don’t know if I was supposed to say that. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, it’s gone now, so— Tallent: If I get a bunch of Feds come to my door—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: No. Tallent: There was a big room downstairs in the basement that held all these barrels of waste—radiation waste. Do you mind? Franklin: Oh, no, not at all. Take your time. Tallent: And once in a while, a radiation monitor would grab somebody to go down the basement with them. Because they can’t go alone—a monitor can’t go by themselves. So I had—[LAUGHTER]—a lady monitor that kind of liked me a little, and she would always grab me to go down the basement with her. And we’d check them for seals and leakage. We did hit one that was leaking. So that was taped off right away, and no problem. But when we’d go to ship—that was one thing that got me. When they’d go to ship plutonium out, a black Chevy Blazer would come in, and then a truck behind it—and there’s another one I might get in trouble for. Franklin: Oh, no, it’s all documented. Tallent: A black Chevy Blazer would come in and then a truck—an unmarked truck—and then another black Blazer. And they’d pull up to our loading dock, and there’d be one Blazer on each side of the loading dock. And the truck’d back up to the loading dock. The back doors would open up to them Blazers, and here’s a guy or a woman sitting there with a machine gun. [LAUGHTER] And there’d be three or four people—one of them a gorgeous lady that carried machine gun. I wouldn’t want to say anything bad to her. [LAUGHTER] She had a machine gun, and she stood guard, and she was not friends with anybody. And don’t come out on the dock. The only one allowed on the dock was the one with the truck—with the forklift. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And everybody else stayed inside—or else. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And they’d load that up, close the doors, lock it, and I said, what happens if you got hit? I asked one of the guards, because she’d come in for a drink of water, thank God. And I said, what happens if you got hit? And she said, that truck—the minute that they don’t have the code to get into that truck would fill instantly with foam. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So then it would— Tallent: It would just be foam, instantly. And they couldn’t get it out. It’d take them a week to get to it. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: So I said, well, that’s pretty amazing. It was pretty interesting. Franklin: Yeah. Tallent: And, like I said, shortly after that is when I went down to 305 and started R&D on the other equipment. But I enjoyed working in the hot lab. Franklin: The hot lab, you mean 308? Tallent: Huh? Franklin: You mean 308? Tallent: That was 308, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Hot lab. Tallent: I enjoyed working there, but it got to the point it was just too—[SIGH]—political. And that’s as far as I’m going to go with that. Franklin: Sure, okay. I understand. Tallent: You had to put in guaranteed overtime. And it wasn’t for any reason. You just had to be there. Bring your cards and your Playboys. And I’m not that kind of person. If I’m there, I’m gonna work. So. Franklin: Interesting. Tallent: There’s another one to be after me. Franklin: No. Tallent: Be a bomb at my door. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’ve heard—funny. Those stories circle around, so you wouldn’t be the—there’s no harm in sharing that stuff. Tallent: Well— Franklin: Oh, yeah. Please, feel free. You mentioned—the first incident you mentioned, you mentioned your guy—your lead, Bob. What was—do you remember his name? Tallent: Bob Henry. Franklin: Bob Henry, okay. Tallent: Yeah, he’s long-dead now, I’m sure. He was a good old boy for a while. Then him and I got into it over this mandatory overtime. He took a week’s vacation and I didn’t work it. So he told a supervisor, the manager of 308. No more raises, no more that kind of stuff. So that’s when this Bobby Eschenbaum that was an engineer in 308 for a while, she heard about it, and she said, I need you. Come to work for 305. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: So I did. Franklin: What year did you start at Hanford? Tallent: Oh, boy. ’73, ’74, somewhere. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: Yeah, I left the ranch. We sold out. Franklin: And where was the ranch? Tallent: On the Yakima River just outside of Richland. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: My dad and his partner which owned the Richland Laundry were partners on it—Harvey Stoller. Him and his wife both got killed in a car wreck in California. It was right across from the West Richland golf course. That’s what I loved about it. When we weren’t working, I’d go down to the river and go fishing all the time. We had a heck of a bass hole down there. My mom and I, we’d go fishing there all the time. We’d go up on the upper end or down by the house. And went up on the upper end one time, and out of all things, she got a huge hit. And I said, that is one big bass! Come out of the water, it was a steelhead. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Tallent: So she caught a big old steelhead. Franklin: Were your—where—so did you grow up on the ranch then? Did you grow up here? Tallent: Pretty much. I lived in Kennewick for a long time. My dad worked in the shipyards, fixing them up during the war. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And he’d be one of the first guys going in, open up the hatches of these ships all shot up, come in. And he said he didn’t like that at all. That was ugly. He left there, and then he went to—heard about the dams. He was a carpenter. So he came to Kennewick and started working on the dams. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: He went to Alaska for a short time. Thought he’d try that out, because it was good money. All he did was sit on the Cat and haul sleds off the LSTs—materials—off the Aleutian Islands. They said, don’t get down. He’d go to get down. They said, don’t get down. That’s your home, right there, you just stay on that. You’re going to be working 24/7s. So he just slept on the Cat. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Tallent: Yeah! But that didn’t—they got all the stuff they needed there on the islands, so they—he come back here and started working, building the dams. He worked Ice Harbor—constructing the dams. Franklin: Oh, okay. Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: And so where were you born, Jerry? Tallent: I was born Hamilton, Montana. Franklin: Hamilton, Montana. And what year were you born? Tallent: ’45. 1945. Franklin: Okay. And—sorry. Tallent: And then we moved here to the Tri-Cities in ’47 I guess it was. So I wasn’t much bigger than a—I was a little guy when came. Franklin: Little sprout? Tallent: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Yup. Franklin: And then your family lived in Kennewick until they bought the ranch? Tallent: Yeah. My dad got—he wanted to be his own boss again. And he’d always loved farming. He farmed in Hamilton—an orchard and all that. So he knew a lot about it. We raised 350 head of Black Angus—registered Black Angus animals. And just a few pigs and sheep and that to eat. But every once in a while, we’d get a barren cow and she didn’t have no calves, so she wasn’t worth nothing. So that was her downfall. She’d end up being on our table. Franklin: Right. Tallent: Yeah. You know, about once a year. If we didn’t need any meat, they went to the stockyards—went to the show—sale. We sold them. We sold all the male calves. He’d keep an eye out for a good-looking bull, and we might raise a bull. But most all the males were sent to sale. And then the heifers, we would keep them and put them with the new bull, so there’d be no inbreeding. Franklin: Right. Tallent: So that’s how we lived for years, ‘til ’73 or something like that, I believe. Then that’s when I got the chance to go out to the Area. And Dad says, I’m out of here. I’m retiring. He bought a big doublewide and some property out in Burbank by his one brother and retired out there. Ended up dying. He’d worked in the coal mine in Idaho and Montana, and died of black lung. Franklin: As a lot of coal miners do. Tallent: Yes, sir. But he still had a good life. I mean, he was 70-something years old. Franklin: That’s not—yeah, that’s not bad. Tallent: No. Mom died at 88. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: Years old. And she just died of old age. [LAUGHTER] She was like me. Too damn ornery to die. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] So, tell me a little more about—I heard some weird stuff about the 308—you said the hot lab. You said that they used a can opener to open the cans. Do you mean like an actual can opener, like a regular can opener, or was it like a specially designed can opener? Tallent: No, just a can opener. Franklin: Like, just a—one you buy at the store. Tallent: Had a rubber handle on it, so it wouldn’t poke a hole in your glove. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And when—it comes sealed. And they would seal them, but then they’d be in a can in a can, and they’d have the plastic bag around them. But the last can—the first can that had the actual materials in it was a sealed can. Safety is not spared. Franklin: Right. Well, yeah, it’s a pretty valuable product. So when you went to—you went with Bobby Eschenbaum to the 305 Building. So what kind of work did you do at the 305 Building? How was that different from the 308? Tallent: Well, there was no material down there. It used to be a hot building, years ago, before I got there. It had, actually, a reactor in it—in the basement of it, from what I heard. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And what I understand. It had—that’s where the dismantling machine went to. It’d go clear down into that basement. It was about—probably 16, 18 feet deep. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: It was quite deep. Franklin: So what kind of work was done at 305? Tallent: All research and development lab. Just what them pictures show. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I’d love to get the camera on those pictures in a little bit so you could talk to us a little about that. Tallent: Yeah. She said, well, we’re going to build a dismantling machine to hold the fuel driver assembly and somehow cut it open. So she gave me an endcap, and go to work. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Tallent: On the mechanism to hold it with, you know. We actually built clamps around it in two or three different areas, and they would rotate. The arms would come out, and they didn’t move, but inside the clamps rotated. So it would—and the base would turn. No, it wasn’t the base; it was the upper part. There’s a picture of the upper part. I designed the motor and had the gear built for that and put the motor on there and it worked amazing. It was great. I patted myself on the back ‘til I hurt my arms. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So for the non-real-technical people, what was the main purpose of that machine? Tallent: The main purpose was to cut open the fuel driver assembly to get the fuel pins out. Once they’d been irradiated, they swell. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And some of them even burst open. Franklin: Oh. Tallent: Yeah. Which was—aw, shucks. But they were in a hot place; they were in a cell. They would—had to design something to cut these open to get all these fuel pins out. And I cannot remember how many was in there, but there was a bunch. You got it with them pictures, you can see them. Franklin: Yeah, it looked like a lot. Tallent: But there were configurations. The first row would be not as many as the next row, the next row, and the next row, and then it’d go back down again. To fit that octagon or hexagon or whatever it was—six-sided or eight-sided—fuel driver assembly. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And so I was—my engineer and I, we scratched our heads, and figured it out. He was a good guy, Pete Titzler. Franklin: Pete Titzler. Tallent: Yeah. I don’t even know if he’s alive. Franklin: Sounds like he would—well, if he is, he sounds like he’d be really interesting to talk to. Tallent: Huh? Franklin: If he is, he sounds like he’d be a really interesting guy to talk to. Tallent: Yeah, he would be, he would be. Franklin: So then you mentioned after—how long did you stay at 305? Tallent: Well, it wasn’t—probably only three or four years. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: And then— Franklin: Oh, sorry, go ahead. Tallent: Then I went away. Franklin: You mentioned earlier that you went to FFTF for a short time. Tallent: Yeah, a short time. Franklin: And you left FFTF, just because it was mostly desk work? Tallent: Huh? Franklin: You left FFTF just because it was mostly desk work? Tallent: Yeah, basically it was just gonna be—one of the guys really liked it. In the picture there. He went out there, and he liked doing that kind of stuff. But I want to be the guy doing the work. I want to, you know, run the metal arms or push the lawnmower—anything. I want to do something. I don’t want to sit on my backside and write notes and tell this guy what to do and tell that guy want to do. I want to do it myself. Franklin: Right. Tallent: You know. Franklin: So when did you—do you remember the year that you left Hanford? Tallent: No. In the ‘80s—early ‘80s sometime. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: You’re making me reach way back there now. [LAUGHTER] I’m a feeble old-minded feller. Franklin: No, your recollections are great. I don’t—I can’t get to the early ‘80s myself, either. That’s because I was born then. What did you do after you left Hanford? Tallent: Well, I worked for this one construction company for a short time. I won’t tell you his name, because he didn’t like me because I was buddy with the lead. And he didn’t like me being friends with him, so he gave me all kinds of hell, and wouldn’t give me a raise and all that. So I walked off and said, keep your company. I’m going. Well, he—the last paycheck, he wouldn’t—I was going to get, he bounced it. They wouldn’t accept it. So I had a buddy of mine that owns the tavern in Richland, Two Bits and a Bite. Franklin: Oh yeah. Tallent: Yeah. Yeah, he’s a good friend of mine. We lived together for a while. Anyway, he had me do a bunch of work there for him. I remodeled his kitchen for him. And then one day, this guy comes in and says, hey, Jerry. I’d met him through this other construction company. I said, yeah. He said, I got a bathroom remodel, and I can’t do it. You want to do it? I’ll give it to you. And I said, no, but you and I can do it. Well, I don’t own nothing, you’ll have to show me. And I said, let’s get to work. That was in the early ‘90s. Him and I been buddies ever since. Now he’s—I can’t do anything anymore, and he’s decided to—he takes care of all the Head Start schools around the Tri-Cities. Richard Meyers is his name. He’s the best friend I’ve ever had. He comes by—in fact he was there this morning—he’ll come by and spray my weeds and weed it and clean the filters on my fish pond, and—man, he’s just a wonderful fella. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. And where do you live now—do you live in Richland? Tallent: Yes, I do. Franklin: Okay. So, let’s see here. We’ve talked a bit about Hanford as a place to work and your kind of challenges there. Is there anything else you’d like to say about working at Hanford? Is there any special challenges or rewarding aspects of your work? Tallent: It was all very rewarding. I wouldn’t ever deny it—I’d do it all over again. Franklin: Really? Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: That’s great. Tallent: I’d do it all over again. Now, speaking of reaching back into the past for memories, I’m going to ask you about some—to do that again for me. What are your memories of any major events in the Tri-Cities, like plants shutting down or starting up, or any local events? I guess that’s kind of a two-parter, so we can just start with stuff at Hanford. Tallent: Well, I know that all the barracks out here went away and the trailer courts on the right-hand side, they all went away after—you had all these construction guys. I’ve seen pictures of those at the DOL office, they’ve got all these guys at the dinner table, the big long tables in the barracks. I remember when Kadlec Hospital was just a barracks. Now it’s huge. Franklin: Yeah, it is. Tallent: And getting bigger. Franklin: Yeah. Tallent: It’s really a mess right now. I had to go there yesterday, and they’re making the hospital bigger, but there’s no more parking than they had. There never was no parking before! Franklin: Yeah, I drive by there every day when I go— Tallent: Yeah, it’s like the park down here in Richland. They built that big theater there, but there’s no place for anybody park to go to it. Oh, I’ve been here forever. I remember in Kennewick—the road to Kennewick was Columbia Drive. And that’s how you got to Pasco, was on Columbia Drive. That was the only way you could get from Kennewick to Pasco. Franklin: Oh, right. Tallent: Yeah. Yeah, it was. That was pretty interesting. My uncle, he also lived here. He drove bus at Hanford. He drove a bus—everybody that was working out there, he would pick up in Pasco and drive them to Hanford to work—bus driver. Franklin: Wow! And when did he start doing that? Tallent: Oh, gosh. I’m sure in the ‘50s. Franklin: Oh, wow. Tallent: Yeah, ‘40s—somewhere in there. Franklin: Did you have any other family that worked at Hanford? Tallent: I guess my real dad worked here for a short time. I have—the man and the woman that raised me was really my aunt and my uncle. But they raised me since I was in arms. My real dad and mom was having marital problems, and they said, here, hold on to this, we’ll be right back. [LAUGHTER] And they ended up going through a big [dispute], and my real mom says, the woman that raised me, she didn’t have any kids, and I didn’t have the heart to take you back. I just met her a few years ago. Franklin: Really? Tallent: Yeah, my real mom. She was wonderful. I got to see my dad. I went back to a one-and-only family reunion. And it was quite a story. We were back there—my son and my daughter went with us. And—no, it wasn’t my daughter. My son and his wife and my granddaughter—she was—my daughter-in-law was carrying my grandbaby. And we went back there to the family reunion, and my real dad, he come up to me. My dad was dead—my real—the man that raised me, my uncle. And he said, your mom wants to meet you. I said, my mom? She’s dead! No, you got her confused with who I married afterwards. She’s still alive, and she wants to meet you. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: So, I got to meet my real mom. And it was a good thing, because she was well up into her late 80s. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And she lived in Arizona, and she went back to Arizona and died, right after the reunion. But we were at this community center, having lunches and drinks and everything, and my real dad come up to me. Now, this is the first time I’d seen him in years. He come up to me and said, you drinking Rainier, huh? And I said, yeah. Oh, come up to the bar. He was drinking a Rainier. He drank Rainier just like I did. I said, that is—we never socialized together, and you drink Rainier just like me. Yep. My favorite beer. We weren’t done that. He said, how about a hard drink? I said, yeah. He said do you like Black Velvet? I said, that’s the drink I drink. So we both drank beer and the hard booze the same brands. That was just—it just drove me crazy! I said, I can’t believe this! Franklin: Yeah, that’s really something. Tallent: Yeah. We live clear across the country from each other and we both drink the same drinks. Franklin: Well, you know, the apple doesn’t fall from the tree—fall far from the tree. Tallent: Yeah, not far from the tree, yup. Franklin: So what was it—so you mentioned you first moved to Kennewick and then you lived kind of in West Richland area. What was it like growing up from a really small child in the Tri-Cities? You know, it’s kind of a special place next to Hanford. Tallent: Yeah, Kennewick was—Dad built the house we moved into. We had lived up above, up the hill from it. And he had this pasture—he’d always loved animals. He had the pasture below us and on the side of our property. So he decided he’d take this old concrete slab that used to be a barn and build a house. So he got that done. He’d get off work, go down and work until midnight. God, he was just—endless hours of work. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And he got that house built, and I helped him—[COUGH]—Excuse me. Franklin: It’s okay. Tallent: Helped him hang the cabinets and put up all knotty pine inside—knotty pine panels. It wasn’t the four-by-eight sheets; it was the one-by-six—or half-inch-by-six. And we put up all this stuff. Made room for a fireplace and he decided he wasn’t going to put in a fireplace, so we put in a window there instead. Built that there, and I loved it there. I had a good buddy up the hill. He ended up being a Vietnam hero. We used to go bike riding all the time when we were kids and run up and down the roads and get into little trouble. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And this was in Kennewick, or in Richland? Tallent: Yeah, in Kennewick. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: But then Dad decided that he’d had enough of this little place. I met this guy that’s got a big ranch and he wants me to come out and look at it. And I said, well, I want to finish school here. It didn’t happen. Franklin: So what school did you go to in Richland? Tallent: Huh? Franklin: What school did you go to in Richland? Tallent: Col High. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: Columbia High in Richland the last two years. And I was a real derelict. Because I was—all my friends were at Kennewick. Franklin: Right. Tallent: Everybody I run around with, girlfriends, boyfriends, all were in Kennewick. And I couldn’t get to hardly meet anybody here in Richland. I just—they all had their different little cliques. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And so I was kind of a loner, so I did a lot of school skipping. [LAUGHTER] I’d go to Kennewick and walk the halls with all my buddies. And then they started checking for—where you from? I was in—I went to the study hall. [LAUGHTER] Went to study hall with them. I was sitting there and talking, and all of the sudden there was a hand on my shoulder. Who’s your homeroom teacher? [LAUGHTER] Out the door! Franklin: Oh, jeez. So what was it like to grow up in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Was it—did you ever have—I mean, did you know what was being made at Hanford when you were growing up, or when did you first start to realize-- Tallent: I— Franklin: --what was going on onsite? Tallent: Yes, I did. I did know that it was for the Manhattan Project. I never missed that show. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Tallent: That was a good series. I knew that they were building reactors and everything out there, yeah. In fact, from 308 Building, right across the driveway there was the old PRTR building, which was one of the first reactors. 309, I think it was called. And that was a gutted-out reactor. It had a round dome on it. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: We went over there and visited that, and they’d give us a tour. This is what was there, and this is where it was at, and all this stuff. It was pretty interesting. Franklin: So what—did you ever—so you would have been—born in ’45, so you would have been kind of a kid in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s. Do you remember special emphasis on the Cold War, you know? Or preparations—especially being so close to a major, you know, nuclear weapon—you know, site for nuclear weapons fuel. Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: Do you remember any—what was kind of—what was it like to grow up in that? Was it scary, or was it just normal, or--? Tallent: It really didn’t bother me. It worried the heck out of my mom. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Really? Tallent: Yeah. I guess it’s—the Korean War, she wouldn’t get away from the radio. We didn’t have TV. Franklin: Right. Tallent: She wouldn’t leave the radio and read every newspaper while all the problems of the Korean War. And after the Korean War, I was getting close to the age. And then here come Vietnam. You’re not gonna go to Vietnam. You’re not gonna go. [LAUGHTER] I said, Mom, I’m gonna sign up. No, you’re not. And I snuck out and my buddy—he became a war hero; he was on a chopper—rescue chopper—and went down, and he saved all of his buddies. Hung them up on the—he dove down in the water I don’t know how many times. And they already had a loaded bunch of—shot-up or—you know, crew from another helicopter. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And they were—so he lost most of them. But his pilot—his captain said that if it wasn’t for him, a lot of people wouldn’t have been there. Franklin: Wow. And so you never went to Vietnam then? Tallent: Huh? Franklin: Did you go to Vietnam? Tallent: No, because I was on the ranch, and I went to sign up with all my buddies—seven of them. You might remember Sam Francisco. You heard of him? Franklin: No. Tallent: Samson—Sam Francisco? Franklin: Sam? Sam Francisco? Tallent: Sam Francisco. He never came back. His body’s here now. His sister in West Richland wanted it back and they haven’t given it back to him yet—to her yet. But Jimmy was one of the few that made it back. We kind of—after—I signed up, but—I was a 1-A, and I signed up to go with them. And I didn’t have the brains Jimmy did to be a pilot—a Navy pilot, or on the choppers of that. You had to be pretty smart on your math. I don’t know how smart you had to be to run a gun, but—[LAUGHTER] But anyway, he got to go. And I was 1-A, and then they sent me a letter said, you’re a single son, and you’re on a farm. You’re not going. Franklin: Mm. Tallent: They made me a 4-F. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: So they wouldn’t take me. My mom, she was—ooh, mad at me. How come—where’d you get this? Well, I signed up to go with Jimmy to Vietnam. I told you, you’re not gonna go! [LAUGHTER] She wanted me to go to Canada or something. Don’t go! And I said, I’m gonna go with my buddies. I guess maybe it was a good thing I didn’t. Because I’d have been a ground pounder. I wouldn’t have been—you know. Franklin: Yeah. Do you—can you describe any of the ways that security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Tallent: Well, I know you had to have a badge. I had a Q clearance, which was a top-of-the-line. I could go anywhere out there. You had to show that badge every morning, and then pass through the metal detector. If you didn’t—you didn’t get by if you had metal on you. One of the guys—his name was Arnie—he was in the Air Force, and his—he was the tail gunner. It wasn’t during the war, but he was a tail gunner, and the plane crashed. And he was in the tail. He ended up in the cockpit. And he had nothing but pins in his legs. He could walk all right; he played volleyball at lunchtime with us out on the grass. But he couldn’t pass the metal detectors. He had to have a special permit saying he had— Franklin: Oh, wow. Tallent: Stainless steel pins in his legs. Arnie’s something. Arnie Dupris. Franklin: Dupris. And what did he do on— Tallent: Huh? Franklin: What did he—did he work in the 308 and the 305 with you? Tallent: No. He worked in 308, but I don’t remember—I can’t tell you where he worked. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: But—no, I’m the only one that went to 305 besides that one engineer. She became a manager and ran the 305 Building. Franklin: Bobby? Tallent: Bobby Eschenbaum, yeah. Her husband was an engineer. And I’m not sure where he went to. He was a nice guy, too. I got along with both of them good. [LAUGHTER] Oh. Bobby Eschenbaum was a little, short lady. She held a meeting—she was an engineer—so she held a meeting out in meeting room at 308, before we went down to—so she’s like this, and grabbing the table, leaning back in her chair and talking to us, grabbing the table. Missed. Poot. I was sitting closest to her. I grabbed her dress, pulled it down, and helped her up. She was pretty embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, jeez. That’s awesome. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford—your work at Hanford, or what the role of Hanford in history? Tallent: Well, there ain’t no future in Hanford, except way out there now. I’d say, go for it, if you get the chance. Franklin: No, I mean, what would you like future generations to know about Hanford? Or to—when— Tallent: Well, it was very instrumental in winning the war. Franklin: Right. Tallent: It shortened up the war to Japan. Franklin: Sure. What about the Cold War? And the nuke—arsenal and things. What about Hanford’s other role, after World War II? Tallent: Well—boy, you know, all I know is they built fuel for reactors to go into reactors—light-water stuff, the enriched uranium reactors and plutonium reactors. But—I don’t know what else I can tell you about that. [LAUGHTER] Really. Franklin: That’s okay. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Tallent: Well, I don’t know. You’re pretty thorough. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, thanks. [LAUGHTER] Emma, is there anything? No? How about could we take a few minutes and go through some of those photos? Tallent: Sure. Franklin: And then I can hold them if you’d like and you can make talk through them a little bit. Because those are really interesting; I’d like for the camera to see the things that you developed. Tallent: Well, hold them up here or something. Franklin: Okay, great. So how do we— [NEW CLIP] Tallent: Dismantling machine. Right there. Franklin: And that’s you, right? Tallent: That’s me. Franklin: With all the hair. Tallent: Yup, the fuzzy hair. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Tallent: I’m trying to remember what this is. This was part of the dismantling machine right there. And this turned. They would cut the top open. Franklin: And just to be clear, the dismantling machine dismantled what, exactly? Tallent: This. The fuel drivers. Franklin: Okay, okay. Tallent: It would take that all apart. This is all what’s in the reactors. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: There’s—I don’t know how many in the reactors. And we had—after they come out of the reactor, they would go in to this room. You can see down there below the concrete, this second story down there. But this would come up—this door would open, and this would come up and go in there. It’d rotate and they’d cut the top off. Boy. I don’t know what all—[LAUGHTER] But they would—here’s the steel arms that would—manipulators-- Franklin: Wow. Tallent: --that would grab ahold of it and help it. And I believe this took place so it could rotate—goodness sakes. That would rotate this guy more, instead of having to turn it by hand or something like that. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: That’s just a proof for the photographer. Franklin: This one here? Tallent: Yeah. That was just proofs. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: But there’s probably a picture of that. Once you’re out on the floor, you got to wear a hard hat. Franklin: Right. This one is interesting, can you tell me what— Tallent: That’s a glovebox there. Franklin: So it’s supposed to be like that, right? Tallent: Huh? Franklin: Should be like this, right? Because—yeah, there’s the person. Tallent: Yeah. That’s actually 308 Building. That’s the only picture I got. This was loading the fuel pellets. There’s fuel pellets in there. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: Holy mackerel. How’d I get that? [LAUGHTER] Anyway. The fuel pin is right there, and then that’s—you can see that bag? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Tallent: That’s on the open room. So this is sealed up tight, and then I’m shoveling fuel into that fuel pin. Then you have a spring—goes in and then you plant them and then put the endcap on. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And then it gets welded—goes over to the welding lab. Franklin: Wow. That’s— Tallent: Yeah. That’s a—that was—that’s not ours. Franklin: Right. Tallent: They—that’s what they were building for Three Mile Island, but it never happened. And they were wanting us to build a better one, because that one wasn’t very good. Franklin: Mm. And that’s just another— Tallent: Yeah. And I said, let’s design a better one. But it never happened. Franklin: Tsk. Right. Okay, so here’s another one here with the— Tallent: That was going to be a one-time deal. You’d build it, and then it stays in the bottom of the Three Mile Island. Franklin: Oh, we’re talking this thing here—this robot. Tallent: Yeah, because Three Mile Island, that’s where they had that bad accident. Franklin: Right, right. Tallent: There, and Idaho Falls. Franklin: So what’s going on in this picture here? Tallent: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Your guess is as good as mine. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Okay. Emma Rice: It looks like there’s those arms there. Franklin: Yeah, we have the-- Tallent: We were getting ready to—oh, there’s a clamp. Oh, okay. That’s ready to be taken off. It’s cut at the bottom, and see that there? Franklin: Yeah. Tallent: That’s grabbing ahold of the assembly, the outer assembly. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And it’s starting to lift it off. This is a—you can see it’s cut open. So, it’s not hot; it’s just all—you know. But this lifts it off, and down the hole that goes, and this lifts it off and then it rotates and sets it aside. Franklin: Mm. Tallent: And this is—that’s what I was working on, too. So it’s a little rough, but there’s all the pins on the bottom—the bottom fuel pins. And once you lift it off, then it shoves these pins—there’s locking pins that holds all this into place, and it kicks them out. Franklin: So here—and this is kind of that hexagon or—upside-down? Oops. Tallent: There you go. Franklin: There we go. So this is that formation you were talking about, right? Tallent: Yeah, see those pins? Franklin: A six-sided—yes. Tallent: They’re held into place. I’m shaky. Franklin: No, it’s okay. Tallent: I’m sorry. Franklin: No, it’s all right. Tallent: These pins are holding these into place, and once they get—my brain. [LAUGHTER] Not working good. Anyway, once they get the—oh, it is off of it. This is not the fuel driver assembly; this is a canister to hold these fuel pins. Then I’m not sure after that. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: So I’m at a loss. Franklin: That’s all right. Tallent: There’s all the people. Franklin: That’s you right there. Tallent: That’s me. That’s my secretary. That’s my engineer. And these guys are—no, that was one of my engineers. His name was Steve. This was Pete Titzler. This is the one him and I got an award for designing this stuff. Franklin: Great. Tallent: Yeah. And he was—this guy here was— Franklin: This gentleman right here? Tallent: --Manager of all the other ones. Bobby isn’t in there. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: Oh, she—I don’t know. I can’t remember. She left or something. Franklin: So here’s—it looks like another view of the arms there. Tallent: Yeah, that’s— Franklin: You’ve got some nice bellbottoms on. Tallent: Yes, I had my bellbottoms. I was a hippy. On days off, I had a headband on, too. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So what are you doing here in this picture? Tallent: You know, I was trying to remember that myself. I’m running the dismantling machine. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: I’m making it turn and go up and down on all that stuff. I never did that. They just wanted it for pictures, basically. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Just to have you pose? Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, I see. Tallent: Get your hair done, and—you know. Franklin: Yeah. So here you are again. Tallent: Yeah. And this one was—this one was a—and they had to have room, so you had a two-story one. You had the gloveboxes down here and a glovebox down here, and you could go up to work on it. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And Greg is in there working on it. Just demonstration. Franklin: What is HEDL stand for? Tallent: Hanford Environmental Development Lab. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: How’d I remember that? Franklin: I don’t know; your memory’s good. Tallent: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That just came right off. Tell us about this photo. Tallent: Okay, that—you tell us about it. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] You brought it! Tallent: Oh, boy! You know, I—it’s a single pin. See, there’s wire wrapped around this fuel pin, too. That keeps them from touching each other. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: But I don’t remember what that—that was my baby, SN005. Franklin: Right, you mentioned earlier when you showed this before that you had invented this machine here, right? Tallent: Oh. Franklin: Or you worked on it, or--? Tallent: I helped invent it. Franklin: Helped invent it. Tallent: Yeah, I helped invent this whole—that whole guy, wherever it went to—the dismantling machine. Franklin: Yeah, we saw that earlier. Well, I think we have maybe some of that here. Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: Right? Over on this side, over here. Tallent: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. That’s just kind of part of the crew there. Oh, no, you said this is the group of— Tallent: Them’s the group of foreign people. The—I don’t see a Japanese fella. Maybe that’s him. But there’s French and German and they all wanted to see it work. They were all excited about it, so we had to put it on display. It was kind of a last-minute thing for me. All of the sudden, they come up to my office, my desk, and say, hey, Jerry. Come on down. We’re gonna—you’re gonna be on the show here. They filmed it all. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: And he said, we have all these foreign delegates here that want to see this thing work. And I said, oh, you’re kidding me. Get somebody else! [LAUGHTER] I didn’t want to—this is the first thing they had. This actually is an auger. And that would cut that open. And—that’s right, I—this thing is floating on air. It weighs probably 800, 900 pounds. And it’s floating on air and you can move it back and forth. But see that—those there? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Tallent: Those are stops. These come out, and center it up. Franklin: Huh. Tallent: And they had to be set just right. There’s two on each side. When the machine would turn it on, these would come out and center up the machine so it’d hit it right on the corner and cut that open. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: But that’s when they said that they didn’t like that, because of all the shavings. Franklin: Right. Tallent: It left great big chunks of stainless, and they were going to be irradiated, so it was going to have them all over the floor. So I said, okay. Back to scratching their head and finding out. That’s when I discovered stainless steel and copper don’t like each other. Franklin: And can you tell us again how you kind of helped develop this new process for getting these open? Tallent: Well, Pete and Steve Dawson? I think his name was Steve Dawson. Anyway, Pete come to me and said, hey. He explained to me that all these shavings on the floor were gonna be irradiated. You’d turn off the light and you’d see shavings everywhere, and they were hot. So let’s develop a method for cutting them open that has no shavings. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And he said, how about a cutting torch? They had a lot of smoke, and they don’t want the smoke. So I tried—that’s when I tried the TIG welder. Well, TIG welder didn’t do much but leave a weld on it. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Tallent: So I asked Pete. I said, what won’t stick to that stainless steel? He said, copper. Get me some copper rod. Okay. Went and got me some copper rod and I—that’s what I told you earlier, I mentioned—it just popped open. Franklin: So you’d just weld that to the steel and then it’d— Tallent: It bust that wide open— Franklin: Pfft. Wow. Tallent: It’d split. Just enough to relax all the fuel pins inside. Franklin: Okay. Tallent: To where they’re not—because the fuel pins would expand after being irradiated. Franklin: Right. Tallent: And with that being busted open, it would relax it so you could— Franklin: Pull the fuel pins out. Tallent: Pull the—yeah. Pull this off, pull the driver assembly off, so you could get to the fuel pins. Franklin: Wow. That’s really ingenious. Tallent: Yeah, it was pretty cool. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] That is pretty cool. So what— Tallent: I was just—scared the heck out of me the second time I did it. Because when I used the copper, he said, well, do it again. I’ll get you another chunk. Got another chunk, and he stood right there and we were watching it and it got to the end and it just popped and jumped off. And we both jumped back. Franklin: Wow. Tallent: He said, you got an award coming. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, you said you got like a $500 bonus or something? Tallent: I got a $500 bonus, and that was quite the deal. Franklin: That’s great. Tallent: And Westinghouse got the patent. Franklin: Ah, of course. [LAUGHTER] Tallent: [LAUGHTER] Nothing—not allowed to have the patent. Franklin: Right, because you’re a government contract. Tallent: Yeah, that government. This was a different style of steel arm there, the manipulators. We could change them out to go to them big ones or the little fingers. Franklin: Right. Tallent: They got little fingers on that? No, it’s got the bigger on one that. Franklin: I think it’s the same kind of— Tallent: Yup. Franklin: --Steel arm. That’s another duplicate. Tallent: That’s just about all. Franklin: I guess we got one more left here. Tallent: Yeah. That hippy on the left. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] So what are—what’s being—do you know what’s being—is this a glovebox in here? Tallent: Well it— Franklin: What’s being watched here? Tallent: Well, it would be the glovebox looking at the dismantling machine here, and that’s through six feet of glass. And that’s just the wall—it was pretend there, but out there, FFTF, it was real. But this would be six foot of concrete with steel BBs in it. I mean lead BBs. And lead—plutonium doesn’t like lead. Franklin: Right. Tallent: So it don’t want to go through the wall anyways. Franklin: Right. Tallent: But even at that, it’s six foot thick. And then the glass is six-foot thick. And looking through that all day long would drive you crazy. I mean it’s just hard to look through. Franklin: Hurt your eyes? Tallent: Yeah, I mean, six foot of glass. Back then I wasn’t wearing glasses, was I? Franklin: It doesn’t look like it. Well, Jerry, thank you so much for your oral history and for going through all these pictures with us. It’s been one heck of a time. Tallent: It was a great ride! Franklin: Thank you so much. We’re gonna really—we’re gonna digitize all of these and we’ll have them with your—we’re gonna digitize them all and we’ll have them with your oral history. And this will, I think, really be a great resource for students and scholars. Tallent: Yeah. No problem. You can hang on to them. Franklin: Great. Tallent: Just don’t lose them. Franklin: Well, I promise you that. We will not lose them. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:15 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 305 Building 308 Lab Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ~73-early 80s Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Bobby Eschenbaum Karen Silkwood Bob Henry Richard Meyers Sam Francisco Arnie Dupris Pete Titzler Pete and Steve Dawson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerry Tallent conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06-25-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/14">Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata</a> 305 Building 308 Lab Arco Cat Cold War drinking Hanford Kennewick Manhattan Project Mountain River Safety War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd83f3c4d7f86b6e52d6cbf8bf71d5112.jpg e7da9ff9782316d22c5ae28c305ce461 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e0756e3663c4eed74b608601031114e.mp4 7aec6edb4ebd55efc217150d9f8e2d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Yesberger Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Jerry Yesberger: I go by Jerry Yesberger, Jerry, J-E-R-R-Y, and then Yesberger, Y-E-S-B-E-R-G-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Robert Bauman: All right. Thank you. My name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is December 9th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So Jerry, let's start maybe by having you tell us when you first arrived in the area, what brought you to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Okay. Well, I was born and raised in Colorado. Went to University of Denver, and I graduated with a BS degree in 1950. And let's see here. Then I worked for a short time in Colorado, mainly because I wanted to come back from the state of Washington—to the state of Washington. I was in the service from '43 to the end of '45. And I spent some time in the Seattle area and everything, and I really liked it. And so when I got back to Colorado, I applied for jobs with State of Washington and everybody. Then there was an opening at Hanford. And at that time, everything here was General Electric company, as you probably already know. There was no contractors other than GE, and they ran the community. And everything—there wasn't anything other than GE here. And my first job at Hanford, which lasted about five years, was in the public health department, which we had most of our activity concerned for the community here, rather than the site, although there were some activities during that that we were asked to perform, such as—oh, I can remember that I'd been out to the site for some things to do with health matters and so on that I was asked to do the work on, and I did. And after about four, four-and-a-half years, the city became a city away from General Electric company, and I wanted to stay with Hanford. So I applied—well, I don't remember how exactly I got there, but the radiation protection department in Hanford Laboratories at that time. And again, this was a time when everything was one site. There was no contractors other than General Electric—offered me a job in radiation protection. And my radiation protection time lasted an awful long time, because I retired in early--oh, gosh. Say, it was 19—but anyway, I had 36 years' service. [LAUGHTER] And my first job was out here in the 300 Area, and GE at that time gave new people an awful lot of training. And I was trained as a health physicist. And I spent, oh, gosh, the first few months training. And I spent, oh, gosh--they had a project here called 558 Project, and what it did was go through the old reactors, all of the old reactors and replaced the tubing in the reactors. And each one of these assignments lasted, oh, three to four months. So we started out in B Reactor and finished there. And my job was I had a crew of radiation monitors working for me, and we worked shift work, because there was a big, big construction job. And it took about three to four months in each of the old reactors out there to go through these, replace the tubing, and so on. So I followed those from B to C Reactor to 100-DR to 100-H to 100-F doing the same thing, essentially, because we went through there. And then following that time, I went back into 200 West Area, where I worked on projects and so on. And rather than work--I didn't have radiation monitors work for me then, but I had always assigned projects myself to work on. And I did that in the--I have worked in every area on the project out here, with the exception of FFTF. I did not work, and I did not have an office there. But every other area I had an office and these things. So it was kind of really a broad orientation program and so on. I want to back up just a little bit. In the service, I was in the Coast Guard. And this was from '43 to '46. And I was a pharmacist's mate, and again, the training was real, real good. And the last year or so, I was on a ship, USS Aquarius, and it was an attack cargo ship. And our job was to take troops. We had Marines that we had aboard, and we had training to have them land on something. And boy, they really trained us. To make a long story short, we got an assignment, and we knew we were going to move our ship. But we didn't know where or what for. But it turned out it was that they were preparing to invade Japan with troops. And I never saw so many ships in my life, where we all had troops, and we were ready to train. And we practiced getting on these landing barges, and, of course, I was a medic, so I had to go in with the troops. But I never had any real active duty due in that time, prior to that time, because I was always out doing these other things. But we were ready to go in, and so we had actually moved into where we would make our move, and guess what. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped. Well, of significance there is the plutonium on that bomb was made at Hanford. So that was really an interesting aspect of it, and I've always been so, so, so, so interested in that aspect of the thing. Well, shortly after that, the war was over, and everybody was discharged. And then that's when I came back and went from there, like I said, prior to this. But I thought that was an interesting aspect of this whole thing. So I worked for the General Electric Company for about five years in radiation protection doing all of these things I've been telling you all about. And again, I had very, very, very good assignments. Probably my most treasured assignment was I was the health physicist for biology, out in the 100-F Area. And I spent a year out there, and that was because of all the animals--the pigs and the dogs and everything, and my job was to write radiation procedures for them to do where the monitor and I had radiation monitors reporting to me out there during that time. Well, following that—I don't know how this developed, but the Atomic Energy Commission, which it was at that time, got my name, and they asked me if I would be interested in federal employment. So in the 1st of January, 1960, I switched jobs from the General Electric Company to the Atomic Energy Commission. And my job, there it turned out that I was a headquarters person, because we were doing what they call compliance inspection of people that are used in the state of Washington, Alaska, and Washington. Anybody that had a license for radioactive material, they had to be inspected. I was one of these inspectors. And it was a very, very interesting job. It involved a tremendous amount of travel, however. And we were always—when I went up to Alaska several times to inspect people, and there were only for us in this whole division, by the way. [LAUGHTER] So there was only two of us that made any inspections. And so I liked it. I like it, because I like people. But I worked at that, and it turned out that we were called Region 8 Division of Compliance, and it consolidated with Region 5 in California. So I didn't want to go to California. So I was offered a job with Atomic Energy Commission here in the Richland operations office, and I stayed there until I retired for my service. But I was with—most of this time, by the way, where I was transferred, I was in the health and safety division at RL. And at that time, there was no—we had one manager for this whole site at Hanford. We didn't have, like they do now, one on for the 300 Area, and all this kind of stuff. So we had our own health and safety division, so our entire--everything we did was associated with Hanford. And so that's where I finished my career in 19--with the federal government. I did work, however, two years after retirement for a company called MacTech, and they were a contractor to DoE to work on specific problems and so on. And I worked with them for a couple of years. And I also worked on the employee compensation program for about a year, and then finally retired. That's kind of it in a nutshell. I hope I didn't confuse you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: No, no. I do want to go back and ask a couple of questions. So when you first came to Hanford in 1950, what was your first impression of the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well it was a shock. Number one, I had never been in eastern Washington in my life. I got a job offer, and I thought it might look like Seattle, but it didn't! [LAUGHTER] So that's my impression. But I wouldn't trade this area for the whole state of Washington now. I love it. We raised our family here, and I'm a big booster of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: When you first arrived, where did you live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, my first housing was a dorm for about three months, and then we moved into a B house, which was a duplex. And we lived right across from Lewis and Clark School here in Richland, and we lived in there for a year or two. Then they sold the houses here, and a fellow that I worked with down here, he didn't want to stay here, so he was living in a ranch house, which I bought. And I'm still there. [LAUGHTER] And we live on Torbett here in Richland, and we've been here ever since. We had one child that was born in Denver, and then our other three, and we finally had a girl, which I was so happy for. I love girls. [LAUGHTER] And she lives here, by the way. And she's the only one that lives here, and she's a special education teacher for the handicapped at Richland School. That's what she got her degree in. And she loves the work, but I couldn't do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember how much you paid for that house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: We paid about $6,500. We sure did. And prior to that, they furnished the oil, the painters, everything that was here was done for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what your rent was on the B house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah, it was about $30 a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: $30 a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you have any other memories of the community in the 1950s, what it was like at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, yeah, somewhat. One of the things that mystified me was that we lived in Richland, but blacks could not live in Kennewick. They would not rent to--you couldn't buy a house in Kennewick if you were black. And that always, I thought, was unreasonable, because we had several blacks that worked with us in the AEC here that were wonderful. And I still don't have any--I love them all. I like everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So when you were AEC, they weren't doing the hiring of African Americans there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, they hired them. Oh, yeah, AEC, there was no question on that with the government, but boy, you couldn't live here. And we had several blacks in our division, and it worked out great. No, the community--do you live--I mean, do you folks live here? Well, when we got here, there was nothing north of Van Giesen. Nothing. And so boy, did we see that grow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Yeah, I imagine you’ve seen a lot of change and growth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: The week we got here—well, let's see. It was about--I lived here for about, well, maybe three months in the dorm, until we got housing for my wife in that B house. And it was great, the idea of that housing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Yeah. What was the dorm like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: I didn't have any problem. Of course, I missed my family. We had a boy at that time living in Colorado, and he now lives in Snohomish. And again, we had the big army camp in North Richland, where we had just thousands of trailers and everything. And that was quite a sight to see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So you said you first job was working for the health department, or public health? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, it was the health and safety. Yes, it wasn't the health department at that time, but it included their functions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: What sorts of things—that first job, what sorts of things did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, we used to do all kinds of inspections, of course. But restaurants, schools, the water department in Richland, just broad health things that required health overviews. So that was the job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: You were working for GE, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How many people were working in the health at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, we probably had 20 or 25. We had a doctor that was in charge of us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And then you said you went into radiation protection, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, from that function. And the main reason is because GE—went to a community, rather than being GE-managed. We had to elect a city councilman. It was a city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what your thoughts were about that, about Richland becoming an independent city at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, I think we all accepted it. It was good. Obviously, when you work like that, you're interested in benefits. And I think that swayed a lot of it for me to stay with GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Right. So when you moved to radiation protection then, you said you had to have a lot of training at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And for the jobs you were doing, did you have to wear special protective clothing at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Can you describe that? Sort of what sorts of things you had to wear. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, basically, they're just white coveralls as the one here, and they're still using the same white coveralls out there, just like we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How about security at Hanford? What was that like when you first came? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I think it was very tight. It was very tight. They really stressed security and safety. Safety was—in my estimation, my experience, General Electric was the most, the best contractor I ever worked for in my life, because they had emphasis on safety and health and really stressed it, you know. Much better than possibly they did in later years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So was there sort of ongoing training for safety? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yes. Very, very, very, very--GE was very safety-conscious, and they were so good to their employees. You never read anything about anything happening in the newspaper or anything like that. They got it to their employees right away, and it was a pleasure. And the rest was a pleasure too, but not like--I miss GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And you talked about, was it the 558 project? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: With changing the tubing. So what was your job? I know you went to each different reactor as they did that. What sort of things were you doing for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: My particular job was I was what they called the radiation supervisor. And so I had about eight radiation monitors with me all the time during each outage, and we went from one to the other. And their job was everything had to be monitored just like they do now, in and out of the areas, and move it, and take it to disposal areas, and everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So was it monitoring the employees’ exposure rates? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, monitoring the employees and the jobs that they're doing, because we had to develop the radiation work procedures, which they were working at. And this would vary during the whole outage. And they were very tight at first, and there was any grinding or anything or heat or anything, you had to have special requirements for that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So of the different jobs you had and the different parts of the site that you worked at, was there a job or something you did that you found the most challenging, and/or something that was the most rewarding of the things you did at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, probably the most rewarding job I ever had here was Hanford, was I was here with Richland operations office, and during the americium accident in 1955, I think it was, and my job, at that time, was--as a matter of fact, I got involved in that particular incident at about 5:00 in the morning after it happened at 4:00. And I went out with the doctor, a fellow by the name of Dr. Breitenstein, and he and I went out and met Mr. McCluskey out in the area, before they got me into the decontamination center. And my job was really I represented RL in the whole aspect of the care of that patient during the months and months that he was here. Because he was confined, couldn't leave, and everything. And my job was to--as a matter of fact, I came right out to see him every single morning that he was in there, and we became very, very, very, very good friends. And it turned out I was a pallbearer when he died. [LAUGHTER] And it was a rewarding experience, because to begin with, he was such a great guy, and he accepted all of this and was never down, but he couldn't hardly see. He was grossly contaminated. And my job was to keep people at RL down here, the Richland operations office informed of what the situation was with him, and to notify headquarters, keep them informed, because it was a real significant accident, the worst we've ever had at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So you mentioned that he had suffered probably with his vision. What other sort of injuries or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, what happened, he had put his hand in this glovebox out in 234-5 Building, and it exploded, and came out and hit him in the face. So he was just so grossly contaminated, and he had to have a radiation monitor with him every hour that he was down there. And I became so familiar with that accident and everything, and I felt it was the most rewarding for me to have something like that to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember about how long he had to stay hospitalized? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, yes. He was down there for probably a year. A year. We got hot food. It was provided to him by Kadlec Hospital down here, and he had a nurse with him down there at all times. And his wife was living down there with him also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And where was he then? Was he at the hospital, or was he- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, there was facility at the back of Kadlec Hospital, which is no longer there. And this facility was called Emergency Decontamination Center, and he was there. They had beds and everything in there, showers and everything. And it was a specific facility for that case, to tell you the truth. And it's since been torn down, which I think was a mistake, myself, because if you ever had another one, you couldn't have been a better facility for it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: You mentioned you were in close with him, and were a pallbearer at his funeral. How long did he live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: He lived about, I think, about three years. And then he died of a heart attack. It wasn't radiation. But he certainly had radiation in him that would cause cancer if he had lived too much longer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Are there any other incidents or sort of unusual events that happened when you were working at Hanford that kind of stand out in your mind at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I happened to be a trained accident investigator, and I had to go to school and learn all this kind of stuff. And I probably investigated more accidents than anybody ever has at Hanford. But we’ve had fatalities, and we had big spreads of contamination. We had several things that cause it, plus, we also responded to off-site accidents. And I had what we call a radiological assistant team that reported to me, and I went out on those where there were trucks that would spill radioactive material, where there was--this is kind of a little odd. I probably shouldn't even mention it, but you'll appreciate it. But we had a truck of uranium billets overturn on Lolo Pass, and these billets weigh 15, 20 pounds, but there's hundreds of them in this truck. Those things went all over the highway up here in Montana. I responded to that one. And one of the things that I was never trained on was guns. But, well, we were up there probably about a week recovering all of those billets that spilled over, because they all had to be accounted for. It was very strict on that. But we were out from town out on this pass someplace, and somebody had to sit in the truck with a gun at night to make sure nothing came, if anybody came from the highway or anything like that. Well, they gave me a big shotgun. I don't even remember what kind of gun. I couldn't have shot that damn thing if I'd had to! [LAUGHTER] And I still can't! [LAUGHTER] But that was kind of humorous. But we couldn't have the guy that could shoot be there all the time. So we all spent about three or four hours a night out there by ourselves. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How long were you out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: We were out there a couple of weeks. But I responded to lots of--the worst probably the most one that I responded to as the team captain was we had a spread of contamination at the University of Washington at the reactor. And I actually, again, there was some plutonium that came from Hanford that they were analyzing up there, and there was a spill. And the reactor at the University of Washington was greatly contaminated with plutonium. And I had a team. I had three or four people that went up with me to respond to that, and we were there two or three weeks there helping them get that all in, and we did. We got it all cleaned up, but there was some minor depositions. But boy, if that thing would happen now, the way it's anti-nuclear, it would be horrible. But this happened to be in spring break when all of the kids were away. So we lucked out on that on that thing, but we all had to wear protective clothing that two or three weeks while we were doing that. But I was the team leader on that particular accident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what the time period was when that happened? What year that might've been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, gosh, I can't remember that. But I responded to probably 30 or 40 spills and so on that were all over the country in Oregon and Washington. And then we had spills in Oregon that we had to go down to, because at that time, the state didn't have people for that function to overlook at that. So we did their work for them. And I did that for, like I say, about four or five years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So did you usually respond if it was like material that had come from Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, it could be anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Could’ve been anything, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Could be anything. I loved the job, and I loved the people, because I like people. But it was so much travel. I was always gone from Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So that was probably one of the more challenging aspects for you is just all the travel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah, it was. We had young children, and it seemed like I couldn't go out and come back, there wasn't a million things broke. [LAUGHTER] So that's the way it went. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about President Kennedy's visit in 1963, if you went to that that day. Do you have any memories about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I got two memories. I got a call after that article was in the paper from the Seattle--no, she was from, I think, a public relations firm down here, one of them, that asked me about it. So I told them everything I knew. So I told them about this one friend of ours that happened to get up and shake Kennedy's hand. Well, of course, they were interested more in that than were what I had to say. [LAUGHTER] So the big article in the paper, he gives his report. He didn't even mention my name. [LAUGHTER] No, I didn't care. But my son-in-law was there when they called too, and they quoted him in the article and everything. But poor me. No, I wasn't looking. I wasn't really looking for my name to be any place. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I was out there. It was, of course, it was in the fall when he was here, not long before he was assassinated. But it was such a hot day, and I think all of Richland went out to it. There was just car after car going out to that area, and some of them boiling over from the heat and all this kind of stuff. But it was a very, very excellent program. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So as you look back at your years working at Hanford—how many was it? Thirty-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Gee! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: About 36. It was 36. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, as you look back at those 36 years, overall, how would you assess Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I thought it was excellent and very safety-conscious. It couldn't have—in my aspect—been a safer place to live in my life than I did here at Hanford. And like I say, I worked in all the reactors. I worked in the separation plants and everything, and it was interesting. I think it was rewarding, the fact that you could clean up stuff. So it makes me real--we had such excellent facilities out here at that time. But all those buildings are gone and torn down, and they could've been used for so many things now. And I think that was a really big mistake. But they didn't ask me. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to share or talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, you know, I don't know. I think you might want to look at my submittal in the Parker Foundation on that thing and see what I said at that time and the answer to their questions and so on. It went well. And I just feel so fortunate to have been here all this time and be so lucky and still be here. I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and I'm very happy that I was at Hanford. I've got several awards while I was here for my work. One of them I do want to show you, because I'm really probably real pleased, but I was elected a fellow in the National Health Physics Society. I received awards, several from—I was president of our local chapter of the Health Physics Society. I received several awards from those people. I was really well thought of while I was here at Hanford. And I was real pleased. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So were you involved in the Parker Foundation as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, I've been on it since--I still am. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you want to talk about that, like how you got involved with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: I was asked to join it by Dr. Bair, who is still there. And I know you know about Ron Kathren. Everybody knows Ron Kathren. Well, I play cribbage with Ron Kathren every Wednesday at my house now. We play cribbage. I just think he's such a great person, and such a great health physicist, that I was so lucky to know him. And they asked me to join, and I've been real active, until this business with my wife, which I took a leave of absence. And I haven't been able to go there, because I can't leave my wife. But I still pay my dues and go there, and it's been a good organization. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming today in this cold weather and coming and letting us talk to you. And then maybe we could get a shot of your award that you brought in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, okay. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:12 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200 West Area B Reactor C Reactor 100-DR 100-H Area 100-F Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1970 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Bair, Bill Kathren, Ron Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerry Yesberger Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerry Yesberger conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/9/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-18: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100-DR 100-F Area 100-H Area 200 West Area 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1911c3232dc3e26cae5fae931b0d46ce.jpg 2d790cfd5db2c5f6f1ef317b27ee22a3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffbc207219f33c3472e82a21e3e2da49f.mp4 8c6abf6b8c6135625d592dbff344235f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerry Yesberger Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerry Yesberger conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F483077cc6df15f1808df334b0814152c.JPG c9f378ad79676f9be70f449b7ae3a4f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Buske Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready, Tom? Tom Hungate: We’re rolling. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jim Busk on September 12, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Jim Buske: Okay. It’s Jim Buske. Franklin: Buske, sorry. Buske: B-U-S-K-E. Franklin: Okay. Buske: And the address? Franklin: No, no, no, no address. And is Jim short for James? Buske: No. My given name is Jimmie. I-E. Franklin: Okay. J-I-M-M-I—J-I-M--? Buske: M-I-E. Franklin: Okay. So, Jim, tell me how you came to the area, to the Hanford Site. Buske: Well, Uncle Sam decided he needed me here. So, that’s how I got here. I was in the Army at the time, and I was due to be sent to Alaska. And I got as far as Fort Lewis and come to find out they were so far ahead on sending the replacements up with the same job number that I had, that they were just dividing us all up and sending us all over the world, really. I ended up, along with, I think, five other soldiers at that time being sent to Camp Hanford, Washington. Franklin: Okay. Let’s—if you don’t mind, let’s back up a little bit. Tell me, where and when were you born? Buske: Oh, I was born in Stockton, Illinois, October 11, 1934. Franklin: Okay. And when did you join the services? Yeah. Were you drafted or was it— Buske: I volunteered. On November 29, 1954. Franklin: Okay. Had you been to Washington before? Before you came to Lewis and then came over to Camp Hanford? Buske: No. Never been to Washington. Franklin: What were your first impressions of Camp Hanford when you arrived? Buske: Well, a whole lot different than it is in 2018. When I first got here, it was very hot and dry. There was—if you didn’t water something, it just didn’t grow. The population was way down from what it is today. Quite an area, actually, today. It’s surprising. But vineyards and things like that were still somewhere in the future. Franklin: Where was Camp Hanford located? Buske: Well, the camp itself? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Okay. The headquarters—and it was part of what they called 5th Group, which is about the size of a regiment, I think. But being anti-aircraft, which was our mission, we had groups instead of regiments and brigades, and batteries instead of companies. I was in Headquarters Battery of the 83rd AAA Battalion Nike Missile. Franklin: What was your job? Buske: Well, I was a—the Army told me I was a wheeled vehicle mechanic, but I knew better. When I got out to the permanent spot where I was stationed, I was assigned to a grease pit, just changing oil and greasing vehicles. That’s really about all I was capable of, but they thought I was a mechanic, so that’s what they called me. Anyway, shortly after I got there, the dispatcher was assigned to motor sergeant school. So he left and I became the dispatcher. Franklin: Like radio dispatcher? Or, sorry— Buske: No, just a—it’s a paperwork job where you kept track of maintenance and assigned vehicles to certain areas. It was a fun job, really. Franklin: What was the purpose of Camp Hanford and the Nike Missile Program? Buske: [COUGH] Excuse me. Well, of course, Hanford in World War II in 1943, along with Oak Ridge, Tennessee were the two main nuclear—atomic energy development places in the country. Hanford made plutonium for the A-bomb. It was one of the A-bomb types. It was a real weird place, because, to this day, if someone says, where were you stationed, and I say, Camp Hanford, I just get a blank stare. [COUGH] Excuse me. It was just a hush-hush thing. When I got my orders to Camp Hanford, Washington, I thought they were talking about Washington, DC. Being from Illinois, I thought, well, I’ll get a delay in route and stop by home and see Mom and Dad and the siblings. They put me on a Greyhound bus from Fort Lewis and I went over the Cascade Mountains and right into Richland. That was it. Franklin: How much did you know about Hanford when you—and how much did you learn about Hanford when you were stationed here? Buske: Well, to begin with, I knew zero. I found out that it was really a serious mission that they had. It sounds, maybe, grandiose, but we had just an early warning board, they called it. It was a Plexiglas outline of the whole west coast, all the way from the Bering Sea and the Aleutian Islands, clear down to the border with Mexico. We were the defenders, supposedly, of this whole area, along with several other Nike missile outfits. They were posted—I think there was one up in Seattle at that time and others around. But people didn’t talk about them very much, but they had quite a serious duty to perform. It was pretty hush-hush. Franklin: So your job was not just to protect the Hanford Site but to protect a much larger area. Buske: Correct. Franklin: But you were stationed at the Hanford Site. Buske: Yes, mm-hmm. Franklin: How long were you at Camp Hanford? Buske: A little over 19 months. Franklin: 19 months. What did you do for R&R? Buske: Well, you probably have never heard of the Kennewick Highlands Dance Hall? Franklin: A little bit. We have a little bit about it in our archives. But, yeah, it’s gone now. Buske: When we would get a pass, which you could get every weekend if you didn’t have duty, we’d come in from the area and—actually, right across the road from here, and maybe up or down a little bit, but there was a drive-in movie theater. That was real popular then. Of course, they had their dollar-for-the-carload nights like most of the rest of them did. That was a very popular thing with the soldiers. There was a few bars that were, I think beer and wine bars, that if you were over 18, you could get beer. It was just really—we enjoyed getting acquainted with the local people. They were very receptive to us. Primarily, the biggest share of them by far worked on the Hanford Works, out in the same area that we were stationed in, you know. But you just tried to blend in as much as you could. We never—to my knowledge—never caused any problem or created any trouble. We were treated accordingly. The people took us in real well. We were grateful for that. Franklin: Yeah. Could you describe what a Nike missile site—what goes in, what kind of buildings are there, how big is it, how many men? Buske: Well, okay. Typically, a battery, which is the equivalent of a company, is maybe 150 soldiers at a given site. Their primary mission was to maintain and operate the missiles in the event that they were needed. So maintenance was performed, alerts were held constantly. In Headquarters Battery, we did pretty near all the service work that was required: either vehicles or had all the personnel records and administrative duties. It was small enough to be a pretty close-knit group. Everybody knew their job and did it. And it was more or less almost like a nine-to-five job, except you didn’t go home at night. You just went to your barracks and sacked out. Our barracks were actually 12-men huts. Prefab huts. Which, shortly after I got here, before—I don’t think I’d been here a week, and they had a pretty bad sandstorm. The first morning I woke up and got out of my cot and I stepped right into a sand dune that was on the floor right next to my cot. Luckily they never had too many of those sandstorms. But it was very, like I say, very hot and dry. We were treated good. We didn’t have a lot of harassing and things like that. It was almost like a nine-to-five job, just about. Except it didn’t end at five. Franklin: Yeah. So there was the main headquarters, and then I assume there were sites. Buske: Correct. Franklin: Around. How many sites were there, around—missile sites around the Hanford Site? Buske: Okay, good question. We were Headquarters and we had actually four batteries: A, B, C, and D. I don’t know, maybe you’ve heard this, but D Battery was the one that wasn’t too far from where we sit right now. It was out on Rattlesnake Mountain. I think Highway 240 goes up by that way. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Buske: And it was just as you’re going northwest, it’d be off on your left-hand side. We were responsible for them, but I think actually they were probably over 50 miles away from headquarters—from our company. But you had to—when you cross on the ferry across the Columbia and went up the cliff side, and started north, you went right past C Battery. These were all probably around 150 soldiers per unit. Straight ahead was Headquarters and part of A Battery. But that was just the launcher platoon part of it. The headquarters for A Battery was up further north towards the direction of Moses Lake, but not near that far, but up on Saddle Mountain. And they tried to put the radar units for each battery on high ground so they could cover a lot more sky. Franklin: Sure, sure. Buske: For defensive purposes. So the Saddle Mountain was a pretty high elevation. But they controlled the missile sites down by where we were. Then if you went further down the road about maybe 20 miles was B Battery. Each one of those sites, if I remember right, had four missiles that were actually capable of being fired. Which, thankfully, never were. But anyway. We were really spread out. Franklin: Were you—did you have cause to—did you visit each one, were you rotated through? Where were you stationed, respective of all those different batteries? Buske: Well, in my particular situation, we were all in the battalion headquarters. Franklin: Okay. Buske: So all the maintenance work came to us and we were only capable of a real basic maintenance program. Otherwise, they came back to the rear, to ordnance for overhauls and more complicated repairs. Franklin: Where would that be? Buske: Well, I think, if you’re describing it from here, it would be north on George Washington Way. [COUGH] Excuse me. And you’d come into the base camp and the headquarters were just to the left of—you’d have to turn left off George Washington Way and then head north again, and the group headquarters was, oh, maybe a mile. From here, I would guess maybe around three or four miles away. That was the headquarters for the whole Hanford facility, really. Franklin: For the Army part of the Nike missile sites. Were there any incidences or surprises while you were out here? Buske: Militarily, or--? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, there was one that was really sad. Headquarters of A Battery was up on that Saddle Mountain, but it was just like two-thirds of the battery; the other third were with us down by battalion headquarters. Our mess hall supplied all the food to them, up on the Saddle Mountain. So we had what they call the chow run. As a dispatcher, I’d write out the paperwork and I’d supply—assign the vehicle, and they would haul the food up there usually at noon. It would have enough food for the noon meal and, I guess, maybe breakfast or something. And in between, like, for the third meal, they’d have cold cuts or something like that. But this chow run was everyday about noon or shortly after. The one noon, I wrote the guy up a trip ticket and off he went. About half an hour later, we found out, he’d gone over the side and got killed. I don’t think they ever did really determine whether he was going too fast or he fell asleep or—anyway, there was nothing underhanded about what happened. It was just an accident. The other one that comes to mind was more—looking back, it was more humorous than anything. They had, in probably late summer of 1956, they had a nationwide, maybe global-wide, I don’t know, operation called Operation Crackerjack. It was SAC-based—SAC aircraft, and the airplanes or whatever were trying to attack us like our enemies would do. Our mission was to theoretically not allow that to happen. Shoot ‘em down or whatever. Of course no one fired anything live. But just before that, one of our leading officers was a strict believer in everybody should know everybody else’s job and be capable of filling in when needed, blah, blah, blah. So he had people like me and some other people from the motor pool doing radar work. Which we knew nothing about. [LAUGHTER] Well, anyway, we were in the main radar location and I was assigned to the early morning board. It had the whole post with the Aleutian Islands and everything. It was, oh, about maybe three feet wide and five feet tall or something like that Plexiglas. I had to stand behind that with headphones on and listen to all this information being rattled in my ear. I didn’t catch most of it, and the ones that I did catch, I really didn’t know for sure what they said. But they would give the coordinates of a bogey, and I was supposed to put an X on the board and then write backwards—because the duty officer up on what they called the bridge could see it from his direction and looked okay. But it was all totally confusing to me. And I wasn’t alone. There was several others of us that really loused up bad. Well, anyway, the officer on the bridge, they called it, he was looking down here and I remember finally he said, Buske, what are you doing? And I said, sir, I don’t have any idea. So he said, well, you might as well come up here and sit with me then, because you’re not doing any good down there. So the whole operation went—while I was on duty, I was watching with the officer-in-charge, doing nothing, really. And the actual—I didn’t know it at the time, but a plane flew right over us, and nobody knew who it was. Needless to say, that didn’t bode well with the higher-ups, wherever they were. So I think it was about a week or two later, the orders came down later from higher up that we were going to have this exercise again, and this time we would get it right. And everybody knew what that meant. If it happened again, heads were going to roll. So they held it again in about a month, and it worked like clockwork, supposedly. Nothing got within about 800 miles of us, and everybody did their job. They knew what to do and they did it. But those two, I remember that, especially that Operation Crackerjack. We just laughed about it. Because we knew it wasn’t working well. When people were looking up and saying, what is that up there? Well, it’s an airplane, but we don’t know whose it is! Whether it’s ours or the enemy. That wasn’t supposed to work that way. No. But anyway, it was mostly just a job and you did what you were supposed to do, and tried not to be noticed, really. They always said if you were real successful, when you got out of the Army, one of your commanding officers was still saying, hey, you. He didn’t know your name. They’d say, if that was the case, then you were successful. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long were you in the Army, total? Buske: Just two years. Franklin: Oh, just two years. So Camp Hanford, then, was the majority of your— Buske: Yeah. Franklin: --of your service. Buske: Absolutely. Franklin: And when did you leave? Do you remember when you left? Buske: When I left Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, it was November 28, 1956. Franklin: And where did you go? Buske: Back to Stockton, Illinois. Franklin: And what did you move on to? Buske: For career? Franklin: Yeah. Buske: Well, I got back home and I had been a tool and die maker apprentice when I first went into the military. So I went back to work with the same company, and finished my apprenticeship and became a journeyman tool and die maker. And ended up working for that same company for over 41 years. Franklin: Wow. Buske: It was good duty. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Let’s see here. A lot of my standard questions for working at Hanford don’t always apply here, so let me see what does fit in. What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work here at Camp Hanford? Buske: Well, I think we tried to make light of what our responsibilities were. But I know that, in my case, and in almost everybody else that I knew, we were really concerned about what might happen and how to help us defend our country. And, maybe it sounds hokey, but we really believed in what we were doing. We weren’t out to cause trouble, but we didn’t want it to happen to us, either. Korea hadn’t been over with all that long, and there were a lot of combat veterans in our ranks at that time. They were really held in high regard, because they had been through a lot more than we ever would. We gave them credit for that. I remember one of our staff car drivers was talking to me one morning and I don’t know how we even got started on it, but he told how they were overrun one night in Korea. He held up his shirt and showed me. He had a cigar—scar on his stomach in front and another one, he turned around, in the back, where he had been bayoneted in his sleeping bag. The only way he survived was by playing dead. You know, when you hear some things like that firsthand—you know, these are people that could very easily not be here. Our motor sergeant was a real conscientious, very nice guy. World War II veteran. There was a lot of them in our outfit, too. He told me one time about in Europe, he was right on the frontline and they were in a town in, I think, either France or Germany. Anyway, there was a lot of street fighting going on. He got to a corner and when he came to the corner, went around it, right on the other side was a German soldier, just like him. Each one went for their weapon, and he got his first. He shot the other guy and killed him. Of course they had to always search them for any valuable papers or anything like that. He was telling this pretty matter-of-fact-ly, and he said, I found out he was almost identical in age, he had a wife and the same number of kids, boys and girls. He said, it was just weird how we were the same. And it’s just because I was just a little bit quicker it was he that went down and not me. I never forgot that. I thought, how things turn out. A lot of times it’s just a reflex. He wasn’t real proud of what he had done, but he didn’t have any choice. It was either him or me. Anybody that has an experience like that has to be looked up to, I think. Franklin: Yeah, I agree. What would you like future generations to know about working at Camp Hanford, being in the Army, during the Cold War? Buske: Hmm. Well, I think a lot of us wondered sometimes what the reason was for some of the orders that came down. Whether it was just to make work kind of a thing, or whether it really served a purpose. We may have wondered or even doubted, but we did it anyway, because we knew that we weren’t the ones in charge. Somebody else was calling the shots, and when you were told to do something, you tried to do it. I remember, the first Fourth of July I spent out there, there was three of us that had gotten there about the same time. Fourth of July in ’55 was a pretty long weekend, like three or four days, a holiday. Our motor officer, who was a crusty old—oh—warrant officer. He was really a nice guy, but he liked to pick on new people. He told us when they left—when he left to go back for home here in Richland for the weekend, that they’d like all the fence posts around the motor pool facility whitewashed by the time he got back. There was an awful lot of fence posts that were kind of like railroad ties, so they had to be whitewashed on all four sides. I remember, it was beastly hot. And nobody else around to tell us that we had to do this, really. But he left those words, the orders, so we did it. And when he got back at the end of the holiday weekend, he was almost aghast that we had gotten it all done. It paid off supremely, because we were on real good terms with him after that for the rest of my duty. And that’s how I made dispatcher of the battalion’s motor pool. That’s good duty. You got things pretty much easy after that. Franklin: Yeah. Buske: But I mean, we could’ve found a lot of ways and reasons why we didn’t get it done. But we never thought about that. He gave us a job to do and we did it. Franklin: Great, well, Jim, is there anything else you wanted to say about your experiences at Camp Hanford? Buske: Well, Robert, it’s been a long time ago, and there aren’t too many things that I can remember that the locals knew anything about. Because I guess I’ve just outlived them. But I remembered how well we got along with the people here. I didn’t get involved too often with church, but it was—every time I went, I was really welcomed and we never took advantage of them, and they never chastised us. I think they kind of realized that we were there for a reason, and it wasn’t because that’s where we necessarily wanted to be, but that we were sent there. So you do the best you can with what you got. But I think the area was really—it was quite an experience. Franklin: In what way? Buske: Well, you realize you have responsibilities, and I guess you grow up a little bit. You find out that getting away with something really doesn’t solve much. It seemed like it’s always lurking there in the background somewhere. But I don’t know, it was just maturing deal. I got to play a lot of softball and we played in a town league in 1956. We won about as many as we lost. But it was a lot of fun meeting the locals on the ball field. It was a good time. Franklin: Good. I do have one more question. When did you—so when you came out here, you just knew you were coming to Camp Hanford; you weren’t really sure what it is you were going out to protect. When did you learn what was being made out at Hanford and its connection to World War II and nuclear weapons? Buske: Wow. Well, I, for one, was here a while before I realized it was—actually, I think the whole facility then was kind of under the rule of the AEC. Those people didn’t fool around. We always recognized them, because they were the suit-and-tie people. But they were the police that really had a lid on things. And they always said that if you—we could have our civilian car out where I was stationed, but if you were in the car, like, from our unit, we could drive over to Othello on that dirt track road. And they said, don’t worry about if you have a breakdown, because you won’t be there very long until somebody will show up. That they had the eye-in-the-sky airplanes flying around a lot. As long as you were moving, they didn’t pay much attention. But if your vehicle stopped—and I don’t know this to be a fact, but—they said, you’d be noticed right away, and somebody would be out there wondering why you weren’t moving. So it was really kind of hush-hush. It just kind of soaked in on you, I think, really how important it was, what you were doing there. Pretty hard to put into words, but it was, you weren’t in a foxhole, but you were still kind of on the frontline. Franklin: Huh. I think that’s a really great way of explaining it. Buske: Well, oh, why, thank you. This is a new experience for me. Franklin: It is for most people. Well, Jim, thank you for coming down and sharing your experiences out at Camp Hanford with us. We don’t get a chance to interview too many people that were out there, because so many people like yourself who were stationed there and then moved away and didn’t come back. Unlike Hanford workers, many people came here, put down roots here. So I appreciate your information. That will really help us kind of reconstruct that camp which was torn down decades ago when all those sites were decommissioned, decades ago. Buske: One of the things that I did remember, and the standard procedure was, if you were going out to George Washington Way to 5th Group Headquarters and then went a little further to your left as you’re going that direction, you hit the main road, which I think maybe turns into 240 now. And you went out maybe three miles, something like that, which was where the barricade was. When we first were assigned here, we got a temporary barricade pass. Just a piece of paper, really. But you got that while you were being processed, they called it. We heard that we were being checked on back in our home towns, and were we subversive, and blah, blah, blah. Usually it took about a week or a little more, and then you got this permanent card, like a driver’s license, that sort of thing. But that was your barricade pass. And when you came in from the forward area, you were issued a barricade pass—your barricade pass, which is an ID card thing, at your own headquarters. And then when you got back in the rear, you turned that in to a quartermaster or somebody. He took your barricade pass and gave you bedding so you could make your own bed up. And when you got ready to go back into the forward area again, you turned in your bedding and you got your barricade pass back. They put you on a bus and you got out as far as the barricade and an MP came onboard the bus and checked everybody. Because your picture was on there and the whole thing. If you didn’t produce that barricade pass, you were put off the bus. Like I say, it was about three miles out in the desert. And I never knew of anybody that it happened to, but they claimed that somebody got put out the bus right there. And you get back out to headquarters the best way you can. But the situation really was, it didn’t happen twice. But it was really kind of a procedure. And we found out later that we had been checked back home. They had certain people that would ask about your character, who are you, blah, blah, blah. Franklin: Right, interview friends and family and probably even pastors and stuff like that. Buske: Yeah, it was a confidential clearance, they called it. It wasn’t “secret” or anything like that. It made you feel kind of a level above. You passed. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, like even a level above what the Army would’ve asked you for, yeah. Interesting. That’s really interesting. Tom, did you have any questions? Hungate: We haven’t heard a description of the installations. You said there were four missiles there. When were they installed, when were they removed, and what were they like? You mentioned doors opened. Franklin: Yeah, could you describe the installations, what you know about the missiles, when they were there and what they were like, what shape and size--? Buske: Okay. Well, actually, everything was there before I got here. But, like I say, each battery had four of these in-ground launchers, they called them, and they pointed straight up in the air when they were fully operational. Actually, I never got down into below-ground where the missiles were. There were four launchers per battery. So, if you figure with the four batteries, there’s 16 that were ready to go at any one time. And I remember seeing the TO&E, or Table of Operation and Equipment, for the whole battalion. They said at one time we had over a hundred Nike missiles capable of fire, reload, fire, reload. You know, I don’t know how long it took to reload, but it had to have been pretty fast. Yeah, I didn’t know much about any of that stuff when I got here. And I didn’t know much more after I left. Franklin: I know before the Nike missiles, there were anti-aircraft placements. Were those still in operation when you got here? Buske: Yes, they were. Franklin: And that was also part of the larger Camp Hanford. Buske: That’s right. That’s a good point. There were at least three 120-milimeter gun battalions and each one of those had different batteries of anti-aircraft capability. They would go down to, I think, White Sands, New Mexico or someplace for training to take their guns down there—and they were huge, by the way. 120-milimeter gun is a large weapon. And they would bring them back and then set them up and fire them to settle them in, they called it, to make sure that all their readings were correct and everything. And when they fired them, we could hear them, and you could almost count to ten, and way up there, all of the sudden you’d see a little puff of black smoke, like flak, you know. And I’ll tell you, it was up there a long ways. 120-milimeter could really get up there in altitude. Not as high as we could with our Nike, but they had a job to do to. Franklin: But they actually got to fire theirs off, though. Buske: Yeah, yeah. It was exciting for us, because we never got to fire our weapons. Franklin: Well, that’s probably for the best. Buske: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. The overall is pretty good. But it was real good duty, because, like I say, it was small and you knew the mess sergeant and he knew you. Franklin: Is this the first time you’ve been back to this area since you left in ’56? Buske: No, actually, it’s the second. Franklin: Okay. Buske: The first time, we actually went—it was before the state highway went through or anything. But we got out to where the headquarters were, and the way I could tell was—one thing that never changes out there is the horizon. I could look and I could remember seeing what the horizon looked like from a certain spot. And I found the spot, and it also had a few trees around it, which is kind of unusual, too. And I thought, well, boy, no way to really tell for sure, but I think this is where the motor pool was. I got to looking around, and everything was—you get that kind of a weird feeling, you know. Wife was standing there, and I said, I really get a feeling about this, and I’m going to pull some sand here a little bit and see if what I think is there is there. I dug down in the sand, oh, maybe six or eight inches, something like that, and I came to a concrete curb that was yellow on the top. And it was the top curb of my grease pit that I worked in and I had probably painted the top of that curb with yellow paint. This is probably, oh, at least 15, 20 years after I was there. But—oh, a funny thing, maybe as a final, but when I was in that grease pit—like I say, the Army said I was a mechanic, but I knew better. And I had a good buddy that had a truck. It was a civilian-type truck but it was a supply truck or something. He and I were talking one day and he said, my wife’s windshield wipers are not operating right. Do you suppose you could fix them? And I said, well, yeah. It’s kind of a challenge but I’ll have a look. They were vacuum wiper blades, so it can’t be too complicated. So he said, when can you do it? And I said, well, it’s getting to be late afternoon and I’m not busy. Let’s take it in there and have a look. So he drove it in and got it running and I started pulling hoses off to see if that was where the problem was, if the vacuum part was leaking or whatever you know. Well, anyway, I probably pulled off more hoses than I should and when I replaced them I didn’t replace them—well, anyway, it got so bad, his truck wouldn’t even run. By this time, it’s quitting time, and our motor officer—this crusty old warrant officer had a fetish about emptying out the building every evening, so it shows everything was done. Well, we had to push it out and push it back onto the deadline. Next morning, we came in and I went to one of the mechanics that was a real mechanic. He was a good friend, and I told him what had happened. I said, you suppose you could help me out? He said, oh, I don’t see any problem there. So he goes over and he starts monkeying around. And the truck wouldn’t run and he replaced this that and the other. Didn’t take him ten minutes and he had it running like a charm and the wipers were running like they should. And he said, well that’s great, thanks a lot, and off he went. It must’ve been a good week later, I was down the grease pit and all of the sudden, I could hear this cackling and giggling and tee-hee-ing and I remember looking up out of my grease pit and all I could see was legs outside the door. There were quite a few pair of legs out there. I thought, I don’t know what’s going on. But I came up out of the pit and walked out and looked and they’re all standing out there by my door, looking up and just laughing and giggling. So I went out there, and here’s the warrant officer and the motor sergeant, and they’re all looking up there. And I looked. The sign painter for our unit, who was pretty good at what he did, painted this nice, real big sign up there, over my door, said, Buske’s Bay, Drive ‘Em In, Tow ‘Em Out. Everybody was getting a kick out of that, so you can’t fight it. I started laughing, too. From there on, I really got along well with everybody. It was a nice experience. But I kept telling them, I am not a mechanic. They said I was, but I know better. That was a funny experience. Franklin: That is funny. Anything else, Tom? Well, Jim, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. Buske: Well, I appreciate the opportunity. When you mentioned this, it pleased me to be able to have a bit of nostalgia with you. Franklin: Oh, good. Buske: It’s fun to be able to reminisce. Franklin: Good, good. Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/ZetcgDDzSbA">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Camp Hanford Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-1956 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1956 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Buske Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nike-Zeus missile Military bases Description An account of the resource Jim Buske was stationed at the Camp Hanford U.S. Army base from 1954-1956. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/12/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F086b14362420c4dd52a43bbf5e5e0b36.jpg 3b9817accaa1e01263a76c3dc07ed128 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0bc49f909539b18632f713f021af9ab5.mp4 dcc3c56a58bfbaa6987b71cc189ab983 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Daughtry Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jim Daughtry on April 4, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Jim about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, Jim, can you state and spell your full name for us? Jim Daughtry: James Daughtry, spelled D-A-U-G-H-T-R-Y. It’s often misspelled and often misspoken, but that’s what it is. Franklin: Great, and James is J-A-M-E-S? Daughtry: J-A-M-E-S, James. Franklin: Okay, but you prefer to go by Jim, correct? Daughtry: Sure, yeah. Franklin: Well, whichever— Daughtry: No, I go by Jim. Franklin: Okay, good. [LAUGHTER] So, Jim, tell me how you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. Daughtry: Yes, I was hired in 1973 by Peter Hoffmann. Peter Hoffmann was earlier with Battelle Northwest, but at the time, he was a manager in Westinghouse. I guess it was referred to as Westinghouse Hanford Company at the time. He had a physics background and he had responsibilities related to the physics aspects of the Fast Flux Test Facility. Franklin: Okay. Daughtry: So, I had contacted him and expressed interest in coming here and came out for an interview. And eventually, we reached an agreement and I came in to work and he assigned me to a core engineering group, and assigned to a manager by the name of Bob Bennett, who was the manager of core physics at the time. Franklin: Okay. And where did you come here from? Daughtry: Where did I come here from? I had been with Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, Illinois. Franklin: And what were you working on there? Daughtry: Well, interestingly enough, I was actually working on the engineering mockup experiments for the FFTF. That was the connection. I had been working on that for a couple of years, and those experiments were ramping down, and I thought, well, okay, I have that experience and it would be of value here. So that’s why I contacted Peter Hoffmann, and we went on from there. Franklin: What interested you about the FFTF? Daughtry: Well, of course I got interested early on, because of the experiments we were doing. We were doing experiments there that would be used to calibrate the computer codes that would later be used for all of the physics analysis for FFTF. So, the interest was there because I knew what FFTF was all about. Franklin: And when you say computer codes, we’re talking about a much older type of computer, right? Were you using punch cards at that time? Daughtry: Yes, indeed. Yes. Actually, it was interesting, because the Department of Energy had turned the design responsibility for the FFTF to the advanced reactors division at Westinghouse Corporation in Pittsburgh. So they had their own computer codes, which were of their advantage, anyway. I was working at Argonne National Laboratory; they had their computer codes. And out here at Hanford, they had their computer codes. They were all different. They did about the same thing; they didn’t always agree exactly the same. But we knew that the codes that were developed here would be the ones that would be used as we started up the plant and did the final calculations. And also, those needed to be calibrated with the experiments that were done at Argonne National Lab. So you said punch cards? Yes. When I first came to work here, our offices were in the Federal Building, first floor of the Federal Building. I believe the computing center was in the basement of the Federal Building. We would prepare the calculations for the day and those would then be punched on punch cards and those then would be probably verified by someone else, and then go into the computer. I don’t remember now what the turnaround was, but I suppose if it was a large calculation, we might have to wait until the next day to get the results. Franklin: Wow. How did you get the three different systems to match up? Or what kind of effort did it take to get those three different systems to kind of match up so this engineering mockup information and the headquarters in Pittsburgh, how’d they all talk to one another? Daughtry: Well, there were a lot of meetings, of course, between the Advanced Reactor personnel in Pittsburgh and the personnel at Argonne National Lab, and people here at Hanford. But it wasn’t necessary for the codes to match up. They had to be close enough that they could decide on what experiments to run at what we referred to as the engineering mockup. I even brought a picture that you might see. This is what the—this was called ZPR-9. ZPR stands for Zero Power Reactor. The engineering mockup was assembled there. This would be a front face. The core of the reactor in FFTF is about three feet high, four feet in diameter. This represents the core and the shield. But, see, this was done at the engineering mockup near Chicago. Franklin: Oh, at Argonne. Daughtry: Yes, at Argonne. This was designed and built based on meetings between the people here at Hanford and the people at Argonne. They decided what experiments to do, and they designed it what they thought at the time that the FFTF would look like. Anyway, I just brought that to show, because you never see what the actual core of FFTF looks like, because—but this is the front face of a— The way this works is the engineering mockup was divided into two halves, and it was movable. So that when it was pulled apart, it would never go critical. It was only when it was brought together and the control rods moved out, it would become critical. But it never operated at power. It was called Zero Power Reactor. It never reacted at power. It was just an experimental facility. It was very important to the final design of the FFTF. Because by building an assembly that replicated what FFTF was going to look like, then they could run a whole series of experiments on it to predict what we would see when we ran the FFTF. Franklin: Okay. Backing up a little bit, what was—I guess, maybe enlarging the scope. What was the purpose of the FFTF and the breeder reactors, breeder reactor program? And how was it different from the other reactors at Hanford? Daughtry: Well, the Fast Flux Test Facility was built to test materials and fuel that were going to be used in the Liquid Metal Fast Breeder Reactor Program. Liquid metal, meaning sodium, which would be the coolant. And by fast reactor, it means that the neutrons’ fissions would occur while they were at high energy, rather than, in light water reactors they are allowed to, what they call, thermalize, to come to lower energies where the fission cross-sections were higher and the probabilities for fission are higher. But the breeder program, you probably know, it was intended to build a reactor that could convert depleted uranium into plutonium, and so it could make fuel as it burned fuel, and therefore it could extend the usefulness of the uranium supply by orders of magnitude. Franklin: Great. And so what kinds of—you mentioned your work at Argonne and the engineering mockup was critical to the success of the FFTF, which makes sense, right? Building this prototype would allow you to work out kinks. Were there any significant kinks or things that you figured out doing the mockup that changed the as-built of the FFTF? Daughtry: I’m not sure I can answer that. The design of the FFTF was not completely finalized during that time, so there were some changes made to the design of our experiments there as the design work proceeded. Again, with the design, final design was given to the advanced reactors division of Westinghouse Electric Corporation. They had their offices in Pittsburgh. But I mentioned that, not so much to highlight that aspect, but just to point out that when I came here to work, the first job that I had was to analyze the experiments that had been done in engineering mockup. And so the experiments were all done to support the final design, the planning for the startup and testing in the FFTF. So my first job there was analyzing the experiments that we had done back there. So that and then I came into an organization that was called the core physics group, and that was managed by, at that time, by Bob Bennett. The core engineering organization, which included him, and Wilbur Bunch who managed the shielding and criticality group, were all focused, pretty much, on planning for the startup. We were not involved, really, in the design of the plant. That was still under Westinghouse Electric’s responsibility. But we worked with the Department of Energy to design what we called a reactor characterization program, which was to determine the characteristics of FFTF. That was done during the acceptance testing program. We had a fairly extensive set of physics measurements that were done shortly after the reactor went critical for the first time. So, much of our work from ’73 up until the time that the plant first went critical had to do with the preparations for that, and also preparations for refueling after the plant started into normal operation. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what was the date that the FFTF went critical? Daughtry: I believe it was 1980 when it went critical. As a matter of fact, I have another little thing that I can show you about that. There was an announcement that I still—I kept a copy of that. Well, anyway. This was February the 9th, 1980. Franklin: Ah, February 9, 1980. Daughtry: You may have seen a—this has been shown before, a number of times. It shows the—it’s a diagram that was taken off of the charts in the control room. This shows the time of day, and this shows the neutron count rates in counts per second. And what it shows that at this time, when this line became straight, this is a logarithmic scale; it shows that the power level or the flux level is increasing exponentially. And you can even pick out from this the fact that it had increased by about a factor of ten in less than a minute. Franklin: Yeah. Daughtry: And so at this point in time, we confirmed that the reactor was critical, February the 9th, 1980, at about 3:46 in the afternoon. And then they inserted the control rods a little bit at this point and leveled it off at a higher power. This was still essentially at very low power. It was not at full power. We were just demonstrating that we could take the plant critical. Franklin: Oh, okay, interesting. Earlier when you said you worked in this reactor characterization program for the DOE to determine the characteristics of the reactor, the reactor design, I guess, then, was solidified, but maybe the plant design was still being worked out? Or how did this work with this reactor— Daughtry: No. As a new reactor, there was a fairly extensive acceptance test program. You had to verify that all of the plant was working the way it was supposed to work. Part of the acceptance test program was this reactor characterization program, which was primarily a physics program. We were measuring things like the neutron spectrum, the energy spectrum of the neutrons in the reactor, reaction rates of all—of various materials. Any materials that would be used, we would want to determine the rate at which the reactions would occur. And part of that would be the fission rate, the rate at which fissions would occur, and a wide range of fissionable material that was actually in the reactor fuel, but it could be in experiments that would be in the reactor fuel. So we would measure the gamma ray distribution, and the heating from gamma rays. This was done throughout—I mentioned to you that the size of the actual fueled region was only about three feet high and four feet in diameter. This was surrounded by a stainless steel reflector, they referred to it, and the fuel pins would have stainless steel above and below the fuel part. Franklin: And this was in the sample, or this was in the final reactor? Daughtry: This was in the actual reactor itself. And we had sample—special characterizer assemblies, that we’d call them, that were made that we could put the test pieces into, in order to make the measurements. Franklin: So then this is a much smaller reactor core than the plutonium production reactors. Daughtry: Yeah. It was— Franklin: Because B is massive. It’s a massive face. Daughtry: Yeah, this was operated at a thermal power of just 400 megawatts, whereas a full scale reactor might operate at 2,000 megawatts power, and then they would be generating electricity from that. So this was just a small version. But the fuel assemblies were similar in size to ones you would put into a full-scale reactor. Franklin: Okay. Daughtry: By “an assembly,” an assembly is a collection of pins that are held together and then put into the reactor core in one long, it’s referred to as a fuel assembly. Franklin: And then that was irradiated inside the core. Daughtry: Yes. Franklin: And then pulled out. Daughtry: Yes, now—yes. This particular, the Fast Flux Test Facility, was designed to test fuels and materials that would be used later on in the breeder reactor program. So it was intended not to have long operating power production cycles, but to have cycles that you could put a test in and run it for a period of time and then take it out and examine it. So there was a whole different organization from the operation organization that did that. Westinghouse Hanford Company had a fairly extensive program to do research on reactor fuel, reactor—oh, various types of stainless steel, materials that would be in there, and just see how they performed in the environment that you’d anticipate in a breeder reactor. Franklin: So this, then, was pretty kind of cutting-edge research for this program, but also very different from a lot of the other activity going on at Hanford. Daughtry: Well, yes, it was entirely different from the weapons program. So the FFTF was unique in that respect. I and many others never worked in the weapons program at all. We were all here because of our interest in the possibility of a breeder reactor program in our country. Franklin: Hmm. And so how—could you tell me a little more about the breeder reactor program? Is it still running, how long did it run for, what’s the status of that? Daughtry: Well, it was in full swing when FFTF was—when the decision was made to have that. There was great anticipations that we could build reactors that would breed fuel. And so the Department of Energy had some degree of enthusiasm. So they wanted to have a robust testing program. FFTF was the center of that testing program. There was other work, of course, going on at other national labs. At Argonne National Lab, in particular. But the Department of Energy, with obviously some probably politics involved, decided to build the FFTF here at Hanford. So it became an important step in the overall breeder program. Unfortunately, by the time the reactor started up and was ready to go into operation, the breeder program was not as enthusiastically supported by the administrations, for various concerns. They were concerned about nuclear proliferation and other issues. And eventually, I believe it was under the Carter administration, decided that they wanted to terminate the breeder program altogether. So by the time FFTF had been successfully demonstrated that it went critical, went to full power, that it could operate, and do what it was intended to do, its reason for being disappeared. Franklin: Ah. Daughtry: So there was quite a bit of effort, following that, to determine if there were other ways to use FFTF. To generate medical isotopes to support other missions and so a great deal of effort, after the breeder program was—well, there was a lot of hope that the breeder program could be resurrected. But they had to find some reason to continue to operate FFTF without the breeder program that it was intended to support. Franklin: Right. So its entire reason for being was gone before it was—really, before it started. Daughtry: Well, I’m not sure about the exact date now, when the breeder program was terminated, but certainly, it wasn’t long after the reactor started up and went into operation and began its design testing programs that the Department of Energy was looking for ways to cut back on the cost. So immediately, shortly after the initial power ascent, they tried to cut back on the staff out there, and our group, which was under Bob Bennett at the time, was split up into two parts. One part stayed out at the plant to help, actually, it was necessary for fuel management, to determine, to plan the fuel loading for each cycle. And then the other group went back into what would be the Hanford Engineering Organization to be involved in other activities. However, it wasn’t long before we were asked again to do analyses for FFTF to support alternative missions, to estimate how much tritium we could produce, how much plutonium-238, how much of other materials, how much medical isotopes. So there was a lot of work of that nature that was done after the plant had gotten into full power. I might mention, I did—you know, achieving criticality was a major step, and it was something that everybody who had been involved in it wanted to be here when it happened. I brought this picture because it says—this was just a picture of the plant. But all around it is the signatures of everybody who was present at the time when it actually did go critical. At that time, the president of Westinghouse Hanford Company was John Yasinsky, and you’ll find his signature is up near the top there. And the project manager was John Nolan, who later became president of Westinghouse Hanford. Franklin: Yep, I see his signature. And I see Bob Bennett. Daughtry: There. Franklin: Yeah. Daughtry: So anyway, all of those people were here. Which reminds me that the day before this occurred, the project organization wanted to make sure that indeed the plant went critical, because all of these people were going to be here. So they’d have been very embarrassed if we’d pulled out the control rods and the plant wasn’t critical. Franklin: Right, right. Daughtry: So I remember the day before, we had a meeting. And my group was responsible for projecting criticality. And as we met there with the operations organization, I remember—I don’t remember who all was there at the time—but I remember the question came up, they said, well, we have, I think, 58 assemblies in the core now; should we proceed with withdrawal of the control rods? And I remember saying, no, we need to add one more assembly. So we added, I think it was the 59th assembly. And then the next day, they pulled out the control rods, and sure enough, the reactor went critical, and of course, everybody was there and everybody applauded and I believe they may have passed around a bottle of champagne. I don’t know; I didn’t get any. But anyway, it was a big deal, because it had been started back in the mid-‘60s, and this was 1980. So you see a lot of time, a lot of effort had gone into it and of course the cost estimates had gone up and all of that. Franklin: And you yourself had at this point—you weren’t there from the beginning-beginning, but you had been working on this thing for seven-plus years. Daughtry: Since 1973, yes. And actually a little before that, since I was working on the critical experiments before I came here. Franklin: Right. Daughtry: So, yeah, I spent almost all of my career after graduate school working on the FFTF. Franklin: Wow. Daughtry: And how long did the FFTF run its various research missions? Daughtry: I don’t remember the exact dates. But it ran through several operating cycles in which many tests were irradiated. I cannot tell you when it was—when the decision was made to shut it down and not operate anymore. It would’ve been in the—I think it would’ve been in the mid-to-late-1980s. I don’t remember the exact date. Franklin: Okay, yeah. You had mentioned other ways—other alternate missions for the FFTF, other ways to use the reactor. Were some more successful than others? Daughtry: Well, none were completely successful. I’m sure what the Department of Energy would be looking at would be, it takes so much money to actually operate the reactor. You have all the operating crews, you have the security, you have safety organizations, quality assurance organizations. So you have a large number of people and you could squeeze it down only so far and still operate safely. So that cost a designated amount of money. So what the Department of Energy would look at is, how can I get a return comparable to the cost from some other mission? So they looked at a lot of different possibilities. But none of them came up to the point where they said that either this or any combination of these missions put together did they feel would justify the cost of continuing operation. I was not in that aspect of it. But that’s just my take on it, that it came down to dollars and cents. Franklin: As many things do. Especially in the world of the federal government. So then it really was designed, then, for its original mission. Daughtry: Oh, sure. Franklin: Which it never really fulfilled. Daughtry: And it was not intended to run forever anyway. But it was intended to operate for a long time, because they anticipated a continued testing program that—and to follow up to this was to be the Clinch River reactor in Tennessee. That’s when that was canceled and then the breeder program was canceled. As successful as FFTF was, it still didn’t have, any longer, reason for being. The experience was really great. The personnel that operated the plant were extremely capable, extremely—they set an amazing record. And I felt that the people I worked with here were just top-notch. I was pleased. I’ve heard many people in the management realm complain about not being able to get good workers, skilled workers. That was never my experience. The people that worked in my organization were just exceptional. And that was true of most of the people involved in the FFTF program. Franklin: Great. Did the FFTF influence any other reactors, either in the United States or worldwide? Daughtry: Well I think, Japan had their own test reactor, and I believe they—well, I know that they had some experiments in the FFTF, and were interested in the results of those experiments. They had continued on, and their breeder reactor program was not terminated at the same time ours was. It eventually was, but theirs had extended on quite a few years beyond our program. And I’m thinking that some of us who were involved in the startup and testing at FFTF went over to Germany to talk to people there who were planning to start up a similar test reactor to the FFTF. Unfortunately, they didn’t ever start up. They got very close. They brought the fuel in, they built the entire reactor, and they brought the fuel in. But I think the state, one of the organizations there, never gave the approval to operate it. And so it was never done, never operated in Germany. So there was interest around the world. Russia went further than we did in liquid metal—the breeder programs. And I’m not abreast of what they have operating now, but they did build probably the equivalent of our Clinch River plant and then maybe even beyond that. Franklin: Mm. What did you think of Richland when you arrived here in the early ‘70s? Daughtry: Okay. Well, I had grown up and spent most of my early years and education and all in the eastern part of the US. So when I came out here, my family and I arrived by car, I believe July the 1st. And we didn’t have a home, so we had to look for a home. But the temperature that day was over 100. We were fortunate they let us stay in the Hanford House while we were waiting. We did finally, after the first week, found a home, which we purchased, but couldn’t move into until the end of July. So we stayed at the Hanford House for almost 30 days. And outside of the Hanford House, I believe the bank had a sign out there that would have the temperature on it. Of the first 30 days, 15 of them were over 100. So that was our introduction to Richland and to Hanford, and to the Tri-Cities. It was quite a change, quite a change from what we were used to. But it’s all behind us now and after 1973 to now, that must be something like 44 years? We thought this is a, really an easy place to live. Franklin: And did you purchase a house in Richland? Daughtry: We did. We purchased a house in Richland. Franklin: So you lived in Richland. Daughtry: We did for 20 years, and we then later built a home out in Benton County where we live now. So we lived in Richland in 20 years, and we’ve lived where we are living now for 24 years. So we have, I guess, about 44 years in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Sure. How has Richland changed from when you moved here in the ‘70s to now? Daughtry: Oh, well, not just Richland, but I believe at the time, I’m pretty sure Richland was larger than Pasco, and Pasco has grown. West Richland was almost nothing, but now West Richland has boomed. The Tri-Cities as a whole have changed more than Richland itself. The whole area has just—has thrived over the years. But it’s still a comfortable place to live. Franklin: Sure. Were there any—considering you had worked for different national labs in the field of nuclear technologies since getting your degree, was there any—you kind of were, maybe more indirectly, I guess you could say, involved in the Cold War, or directly involved in technologies that played a vital role in the Cold War. Did you feel connected to that conflict at all in any way, or did you feel any anxiety about living next to a place of weapons production during the Cold War? Daughtry: No, I did not. I was aware of what was going on, and I was aware of what happened at Chernobyl. I was aware of what was happening here at Hanford as far as weapons production. But I was focused on our mission, and that consumed my time and I was never uneasy about living where I was living. But, no, I never ended up working in the weapons program at all. After FFTF was shut down, I spent a short period of time involved in some of the calculations, criticality-related calculations, for the cleanup effort. But that was a small part of my career; most of it was with the FFTF over those years. Franklin: Speaking of Chernobyl, how did—I’m wondering if you could give me your impression on how that incident kind of reverberated in this community? Daughtry: Well, I think one of the first concerns that people worried about around the country was the N Reactor was a graphite-moderated reactor and Chernobyl was, too. So people wanted to compare it. But there was significant differences. And again, I wasn’t involved in that, so I could not tell you what exactly the differences were. But people argued that, no, no, no, the N Reactor was not like Chernobyl. But other people around the country were not so convinced. And ultimately, of course, that was shut down as well. But we hated to see Chernobyl happen because any major accident anywhere in the world affects everybody else in the industry. So we hated to see an accident anywhere. That was, unfortunately, a very serious one. Franklin: Yeah. Probably the worst manmade nuclear accident—Fukushima is the result of a tidal wave, and so, nature— Daughtry: Yeah, tsunami and a tidal wave. Franklin: Nature played more of a role there. So, okay. Thank you. When did you retire from Hanford? Daughtry: As I recall, it was December of 1994. So I had that—I’d worked for Westinghouse about 21 years. I think, if I recall, it was the next fall that Westinghouse, essentially left and Fluor took over operation here at Hanford. So all of my time here at Hanford was with Westinghouse. Franklin: What drove your decision to retire? Daughtry: Well, I don’t know. It was a bad—it was not as healthy a time. It seems like there was so much effort to reduce cost. And the cleanup program had not, seems like, gotten the support that it got later on. And the FFTF had been shut down. There were other things that we could do and other things that we did do, but—I think because of the Department of Energy were putting pressure on Westinghouse to cut back staff, they offered early retirement incentives. I looked at the opportunities and what there was left of interesting work to be done, and I just decided to take the early retirement opportunity. Franklin: What I’m getting is kind of a picture of a kind of a rudderless era, maybe, in some ways, compared to the production period. Daughtry: Well, yes. That was really a time of great enthusiasm when we had this mission and we had a goal. So many times, you’ll see government projects start and go a while and then stop and never be completed. For example, there was the superconducting supercollider. It was to be built in Texas. And it was funded and it was approved. But then eventually, probably due to financial issues again, it was terminated. So you see so many projects that start and don’t make it, but we saw it. We didn’t see the breeder program, but we saw a reactor whose concepts were first developed in the mid-‘60s. They went all the way to completion. The reactor was built, it was operated successfully, and to see something really successful is really a good part of a career to see that sort of thing happen. After that, of course there was other work, and there was the cleanup program. But I never saw anything here that engendered the same level of enthusiasm that the FFTF did. Perhaps there were that I was just not aware of. But I was happy that I had the opportunity to work there when I did. Franklin: Right. What did your wife do while you worked out at the FFTF? Daughtry: My wife has a degree in physics as well. Franklin: Oh! Daughtry: An undergraduate degree. But she came here, and we had, at that time, two children. So her goal was to make sure those children were raised properly. As time went on, she became quite interested in gardening and decided, as the children got older, that she’d join the Master Gardener program here in the Tri-Cities. So she actually worked with that for, I believe, over 35 years, she was involved in the Master Gardener program. She assisted the program director, Marianne Ophart. So that was a great fulfilment for her. She found a real place where she felt like she could contribute, and she did. Franklin: Oh, wow. Great. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Daughtry: Well, that then goes back mostly to the work that went on here that I was not involved in. I think you need somebody else to answer that question. The Cold War competition between the Soviet Union and the United States led to a series of burst of activity here at Hanford. They felt like that they needed to make more weapons periodically. So Hanford did its share. And of course we’re paying much of the price for that now, because we have the remnants to be cleaned up. That’s taking much longer than anyone might have anticipated. But at the time they were producing plutonium here, that wasn’t the major concern. A major concern was that there was a competition between the Soviet Union and the US. But that’s a whole different area, and that’s not my—that was not my involvement, where I was involved. Franklin: Sure. Let me rephrase that question, maybe tailor it better to you. What would you like future generations to know about working on the FFTF and the breeder reactor program? Daughtry: Well, I think future generations should remember that there is a concept that has been proven, that we could generate electricity, and we could—we do have, in the form of uranium, a fuel that could last for a long, long time. It doesn’t produce greenhouse gases. So it’s there, and it hasn’t gone away. The fact that we’re not following right now doesn’t mean that it won’t be followed sometime in the future. But I believe that FFTF served its purpose then. It might have accomplished a great deal more than it actually did. But the breeder program is something that was not just a pie-in-the-sky; it was real. And it’s still a possibility, and perhaps we’ll have to just see what the future holds. Whether that will ever resurrect itself remains to be seen. Franklin: Great. Is there anything that we haven’t discussed that you’d like to talk about today? Daughtry: Not that I—I think we’ve sort of covered the issues, covered the things. I just hope, you know, what I’ve been able to pass on to you is somehow helpful. Franklin: I think it is. Thank you very much, Jim, I really appreciate it. Daughtry: Yeah, appreciate it. Franklin: Your photos, would we be able to make digital copies of those and place them with your interview? Daughtry: Sure. They’re easily—I think they would be available. Franklin: Great. So if you don’t mind, what I’ll do is I’ll take those with me and I’ll make digital copies, and when we process your interview in a couple weeks and make a DVD out of it, we’ll slip these in the mail along with the DVD. Daughtry: I think those are the ones that I mentioned to you. Franklin: Okay, great. Is there any others that you think are of historical significance that you’d like to have with your interview? Daughtry: This is the first ascent to full power. Franklin: Oh, okay. Daughtry: And it went up step by step. There was also—I don’t know, does that show there was a bunch of signatures around there as well? Franklin: Yeah. Daughtry: So it’s a similar thing, that people wanted to be there the first time the reactor got up to its designed operating power, full power. And by that time, it could be that John Nolan may have been taken over as president of Westinghouse Hanford. I’m not sure of the exact time. But it’s a similar sort of thing. Achieving criticality was one major step, but another major step was when the reactor actually reached full power for the first time. Franklin: Great. Wow. This is great. Thank you so much, Jim. Put these in my folder here, and I’ll put these in a nice protective envelope when we mail them back to you— Daughtry: Okay. Franklin: So they don’t get all beat up. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate— Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Daughtry Subject The topic of the resource Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) Westinghouse Hanford Company Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Jim Daughtry came to the Hanford Site to work at the Fast Flux Test Facility. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/4/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F90072178ee6b49b5e9c83f30c844deb0.jpg 8d62a270c356906317128fa63f1addd0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F19face321b6a5a994b924907867a49ba.mp4 786da99811d619349f380dda595f52c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Hyde Description An account of the resource An interview with Jim Hyde conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3f162f5aa3da38abd4eb2c55f021f8f2.JPG 32f08072f06ed989d1d0de4d112e9771 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1ce147caacde437decefd3f6942428e0.mp4 88f1f286260106c3af59884404438778 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Stoffels Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jim Stoffels on July 13, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jim about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and his involvement with the organization, CORE. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? James Stoffels: James Stoffels. J-A-M-E-S. S-T-O-F-F-E-L-S. Franklin: Great, thanks, Jim. Tell me how you—well, I guess we’ll start from an earlier point. When did you come to Richland? Stoffels: I came to Richland in June 1962. Franklin: 1962. Okay. Where did you first live? Stoffels: I rented a two-bedroom prefab in Richland on Smith Avenue. 1026 Smith. Franklin: 1026 Smith. Stoffels: Which is no longer there. It’s been replaced by a modern home. Franklin: Yes. Yes, it has. I live like right by there, off of Thayer. It has been replaced. How did you first—did you have any involvement with civil rights before you came to Richland? Stoffels: No. No, I didn’t. Franklin: How did you first hear about the Congress On Racial Equality, or CORE? Stoffels: Well, some neighbors moved in to the house next to me, and they were Herb and Rindetta Jones. And Herb was the head of the local chapter of CORE, the Tri-Cities chapter. That’s how I got involved. Franklin: And it was you and your former wife. Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: What was your former wife’s name? Stoffels: Georgia. Franklin: Georgia. Do you remember what, approximately, year that was? Stoffels: No, I don’t. I know it was probably a couple years after I moved here, but I don’t remember. Franklin: Okay. The first year I found a mention of you or Georgia was 1965. Stoffels: Okay. Franklin: Does that sound about right? Stoffels: Yeah. I was going to say ’64, but— Franklin: ’64, ’65, okay. And what was your role within CORE during your time? Stoffels: Well, I became the secretary of the organization. Franklin: And what about your former wife? Stoffels: Well, she didn’t have an official position, but I took the minutes of meetings and she typed them. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: But I was the designated or the—I don’t know if we were elected or what—I was the secretary. Franklin: What drove you to join CORE? Stoffels: Well, I certainly knew about the black civil rights movement, and certainly supported it. So that was it. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: Well, segregation was one, certainly, because at that time, all of the African Americans, the blacks, the Negroes, as they were called then, lived in Pasco, literally east of the railroad tracks in Pasco. But other than that, I really can’t speak to what other issues there were. I imagine, discrimination probably in employment and in housing, certainly. Because, for example, Kennewick had no black people living in that city. Franklin: What did CORE do to address the situation in Kennewick? Stoffels: Well, I don’t recall if we specifically did anything in terms of Kennewick. The thing I remember most is the one march we had in Pasco. There was quite a considerable turnout for that. We gathered in front of the courthouse in Pasco. I guess we had some kind of a program there, but then we marched from there over to east Pasco. And I think our destination, as I recall, was Morning Star Baptist Church. Franklin: What was the goal of the march? Or what were you raising awareness for? Stoffels: Well, just the general issue of, you know, civil rights for African Americans. Discrimination, segregation. Franklin: Did you work with any African Americans out at Hanford? Did you see many African Americans out on the job? Stoffels: No. Franklin: No? Stoffels: No. There weren’t any in the group that I was in. I did know—yes, I did know one or two. They were not professionals; they were, you know, blue collar workers. Franklin: Did it seem that African Americans were mostly restricted to blue collar work at that time? Stoffels: I would say yes, yeah. Yeah. You know, I didn’t think about it at the time, I don’t think, in that context. But I would certainly say that was the case. Franklin: Do you remember a march in Kennewick at all? Stoffels: No, I don’t, I don’t. Franklin: Okay. So you said that Herb and Rindetta were your neighbors. Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: And they were African American, right? Stoffels: Yes. Franklin: And I assume over the years you developed a close relationship with them? Stoffels: Well, I wouldn’t say I was close, because it didn’t last that long. I can’t remember when they moved away. And then I think that’s when, probably, the chapter of CORE here went out of existence. Franklin: What do you remember about Herb and Rindetta? Stoffels: Well, just, you know, they were a nice couple and they had two children. I don’t know what Herb did, what his profession or employment was. But then they moved away to Yakima. Franklin: Oh, okay. What do you remember about anyone else in the Tri-Cities CORE? Did you form any other lasting relationships or professional or personal relationships with anyone else? Stoffels: Well, I remember the Brounses; Dick and Nyla Brouns were in it, and we belonged to the same church. And Norm and Shirley Miller were in it. In later years, they were active in World Citizens for Peace. They were regulars on the sidewalk when we were protesting our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Franklin: Oh, later in the 2000s. Stoffels: Yeah, right. Franklin: Yeah. Stoffels: And the ‘80s. Franklin: Oh, right, right. Yeah. What were the concerns of CORE in Richland? Was there a problem with housing or employment in the City of Richland? Stoffels: Yeah, there was. And there was—at one point there was some kind of, I think, a housing commission set up by the city. I remember some meeting I attended that had to do with that issue, and there was a gentleman there, a black gentleman. I can’t remember what his name was, but I think he was an attorney. At any rate, I went to this meeting, and the members of this board, at least some of them, were realtors. And I didn’t understand that. So I went up after the meeting and talked to this man, and he just—you know, I was very naïve, and he just, you know, set me straight about, that’s the way it is. That some of the people that are on that board, not to promote the intended purpose, to frustrate the intended purpose of housing. Franklin: Right. What was the concern of the realtors in selling homes or renting homes to— Stoffels: I can’t speak to that. I don’t know. I just— Franklin: Okay. What do you remember about efforts to end discrimination at private clubs like the Elks? Stoffels: I think we had some demonstrations over at the Elks in Kennewick. But, you know, that’s about as much as I remember. I remember that it was an issue. Franklin: Yeah. Stoffels: And I think we did some demonstrations. But I can’t be sure of that. Franklin: Were there any threats or intimidations to either CORE members, white or black, or to African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the civil rights era? Stoffels: Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge. Franklin: Okay. How did the rise of black nationalist groups, like the Panthers and Nation of Islam, affect CORE? Stoffels: Well, I think by the time that happened, I think our local chapter of CORE was out of existence. And I don’t know how long CORE nationally lasted. I mean, it doesn’t exist nowadays. NAACP is the main black/African-American civil rights organization promoting that cause. Franklin: What was the relationship between CORE and NAACP? Stoffels: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I don’t remember, you know, I don’t know when local NAACP formed. I don’t know if it was before or after CORE. The fact that CORE arose leads me to believe that perhaps NAACP hadn’t organized yet. But I don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Hmm. To your knowledge, did any of the black nationalist groups form in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: No. No. No, there was no one that was that militant. Franklin: What was the relationship between Richland residents working for the betterment of African Americans in east Pasco and the residents of east Pasco? Was there ever tension between the groups? Stoffels: Not that I’m aware of. I mean, we in Richland were comfortable and isolated and weren’t bothered. Franklin: Okay. What were some of the notable successes of CORE in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: I don’t know. I don’t know what we can point to as a success. I don’t know what we could take credit for. I think, you know, our purpose was to raise awareness, and certainly working for equality and open housing, integration and those things. But I don’t know that we, as a group, can claim any success in that area. But I think it’s certainly part of what ultimately did take place, in terms of integrating. And certainly—well, the fact that a black couple, family, in CORE was the first family—white family—to move into Kennewick. The Slaughters, John and Mary Slaughter, and their children. So they personally can chalk that up as a victory. Franklin: Right, kind of helping to break the— Stoffels: Break the color barrier. Franklin: Yeah, to break the color barrier there. What were some of the biggest challenges? Stoffels: I don’t know how to answer that. Franklin: You mentioned working to raise awareness. How—was one of the missions of CORE—was there a general acceptance of the group in the Tri-Cities, or kind of, you know—or rejection or just kind of a antipathy to the message? Stoffels: Well, I’m not aware of any general response. I mean, we were there and did what we did, and I’m not aware of any backlash from the community. You know, the African American members of the community could certainly address that better than I. Franklin: The Brouns and the Millers, two other white couples that participated in CORE, told me that at times they felt social pressure or work pressure from their involvement in CORE. Stoffels: Oh, really? Franklin: Yeah, that they had had supervisors or friends question them or chide them for their agitation. I’m wondering if you had ever experienced— Stoffels: No. Franklin: --anything like that in your work or personal life? Stoffels: No, I never did. And I wasn’t even aware of it, you know, on their part. Franklin: Okay. I think that is all of my questions. Stoffels: Oh, okay. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: The other thing I remember is that Georgia and I once hosted a party at our house for the CORE group. I remember, we had it in the basement, and I remember the Barneses were there, Dallas and Lozie Barnes. And I don’t remember who else. One person I remember is Dick—god, I don’t remember his last name. Anyway, he—god, senior moment. He later moved to Seattle and he became—at one point he was, I think, a member of the state legislature. God, I can’t think—Dick—I can’t remember. And there were a couple of musicians there, and I was thinking of their names the other day. Now I can’t think of it. It was a member. White man. Zane Casey. That’s it, I think. Zane Casey. And maybe it was he and his wife that just were a little two-person band. Franklin: What was the purpose of the party? Stoffels: I can’t remember if it was a Christmas party or what. It might’ve been a Christmas party. Franklin: Any other memories from your time? Stoffels: No. No. I’m trying to remember where we were when we met. I can’t remember if we met at the Morning Star Church or where. Franklin: From the notes, it seemed like you—the group would meet twice a month, once in Pasco and then once either in Richland or Pasco. Morning Star seemed to be a popular place, as well as, there was like a diner in the east side of Pasco, I believe you met at. And then sometimes in Richland, you’d meet at—or sometimes at Richland or Kennewick, you’d meet at individual people’s homes. Stoffels: Oh, yeah. Franklin: And once I saw that— Stoffels: Brounses, maybe? Franklin: Yes, the Brounses. Stoffels: Yeah, right. Franklin: And once at your house. Stoffels: And once they met at our house, too? Oh, okay. Yeah, I don’t remember meeting at the diner. But I do remember Morning Star Baptist Church. We were there a number of times. Franklin: Did you have a close relationship with—did CORE work with Morning Star and the other black churches in its activities? Stoffels: Well, you know, Herb is the head of the organization and, as a black person, I imagine, he did all of that. In terms of making those arrangements. I don’t remember—they might have gone—his family might have gone to that church. I don’t know. Franklin: And you went to Christ the King? Stoffels: Christ the King, yeah. Franklin: With the Browns? Stoffels: Brouns. The Brounses. And how did you get in touch with Kathy? Franklin: I got her name from a friend of mine, Tanya Bowers, because people had mentioned—someone was in contact with the Brouns. There’s one or two of the sons still live here locally. Stoffels: Yeah, Tom does. I know Tom and his wife. Franklin: Yeah, and I called her or emailed her and we had a correspondence and she was— Stoffels: Yeah, because Kathy lives over in Seattle. Franklin: Yeah, she was passing through on the way to Boise for a wedding and stopped by and she brought a file that I gathered a lot of information from. Stoffels: Oh, for heaven’s sakes. Franklin: Yeah, it’s been a lot of good coincidences for the project. That’s how I found your name and I was like, oh, I know Jim. Stoffels: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, let me see here, I might have one or other question. Well, I guess I’ll just go with the ending question. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to segregation, civil rights, how they impacted your life or others in the Tri-Cities? Stoffels: I really can’t think of anything. I mean, the thing that I gained out of it is the sense of community with black people. I annually go to the Martin Luther King commemoration over at CBC and I see people there, like the Barneses and the Mitchells. CJ Mitchell is deceased now, but the Mitchells lived just a couple blocks from us. Their daughter, Vanessa, babysat for us. Franklin: Oh, really? Stoffels: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Stoffels: With our two young—our first two daughters. Franklin: Oh, okay. Yeah, I know Vanessa really well. Stoffels: So I always reminisce whenever I see her, and that’s at, usually, at that Martin Luther King event. Franklin: So it was important, then, for you to be an ally of the civil rights movement? Stoffels: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure, I mean, that’s why I was there. Just like World Citizens for Peace. I’m there because it’s important to me. Franklin: Yeah. Did you transition to World Citizens for Peace after CORE or did your activism in CORE— Stoffels: Oh, no, there was a long time between those two. Because we founded World Citizens for Peace in 1982. And that was in response to Reagan, President Reagan’s goal of building 17,000 new nuclear warheads in the ‘80s. In between, I was on the city council in Richland in the ‘70s for four years. I was elected in ’71, I believe it was, and served for four years. Couldn’t wait to get off. Franklin: Yeah? Stoffels: Yeah. Well, I didn’t want to—there was a specific issue at that time. And I and a whole group of people were—got together around that issue. It was that the city council was extending water and sewer lines to what’s now south Richland, to the Meadow Springs area. They were going to be paid through the bills of all the people in the existing city. They had no policies for extending lines and assessing the ones who are served by it. So, we, this group, wanted to replace the members of the council who had voted for that. I think there were three positions open. Two of them, members of the group filed an opposition to. And there was nobody for opposing the mayor. I tried to get someone else to, you know. And nobody would. So, out of a sense of responsibility, I filed, and I replaced the incumbent mayor. Not as mayor, because the mayor is chosen by the council. Franklin: Right. Stoffels: But as a—so I never really wanted to be on it, but I was. That was like a half-time job for me for those years. It really took a lot of my time. Franklin: Yeah. That certainly does. Stoffels: And at the time, it was not a paid position like it is now. Franklin: Oh. Stoffels: There was a stipend of $500 a year. And the last thing I did before I went off the council is I proposed an ordinance that the councilmembers should be paid, you know, as a part-time job. And it was adopted. Of course, I never got it, because something like that, you can’t get the benefit of, unless you’re elected again. Franklin: Right. Interesting. Stoffels: But I thought that was very important, because the lack of that meant that the councilmembers were predominantly members of the business community. So, they looked out for the business interests. And I thought, well, that’s not representative government. We needed to have that be a paid position, as a part-time paid position, so that the average John or Jane could run and be remunerated for their work. Franklin: Right, yeah. Makes sense. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming— Stoffels: Yeah, you’re welcome. Franklin: --and sitting down with us and talking about your time in CORE. Stoffels: My pleasure. Good to reminisce about those years. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1962- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Stoffels Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Civil rights Civil rights movements Segregation Discrimination Description An account of the resource Jim Stoffels moved to Richland, Washington in 1962 and was involved in local civil rights movements. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/13/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F949c34824c3baa683668f048b76a3f7c.jpg a7532e182135be110ec23c9c1739ee92 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff4c175dd0e7d7618799f999a667b9b3a.mp4 8ac495b3421b632f99b868b055771a34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Soldat Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Soldat_Joe Robert Bauman: Okay, all right. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. All right. What I'm going to have you do first is say your name. And then spell it for me. Joe Soldat: Okay. Joseph Soldat, S-O-L-D-A-T. Bauman: Thank you, and my name is Robert Bauman. And we're conducting an oral history interview. Today's date is August 6th of 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And so I'm talking today with Joe Soldat about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So I wonder--let's start by maybe you tell me how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place. Soldat: When I graduated from the University of Colorado with a degree in chemical engineering, I worked for a while at the Denver General Hospital, which was associated with the university. And they lost their research grant. So I heard from somebody that there was a place called Hanford. So I wrote a letter to the employment department at GE. And I got a thing back, of course, that says, we got your letter on file. But it wasn't too long afterwards they called me, and told me to come. So I agreed to come out, sight unseen, on the train. And I got off to train. I looked at all the sagebrush, like everybody, and said, oh, I'll give it a year or two. That was 1948. And I stayed on the project for 47 years. Bauman: Ah. And so you arrived in this place of sage brush and desert. Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: What sort of housing did you find? Soldat: Well, when I came they put me in a barracks in North Richland, the old military barracks--small rooms for two people with a closet and a dresser. And showers were down the hall. Maid came in once a week to change the linens and towels. And I was paying $0.20 a day for rent. Eventually, I got to move to Richland--the dorm M4. And on the corner right now is a bank where M2 used to be. And M2 became a motel for a while—some guy bought it. And then it finally became a bank. But my wife-to-be lived in the women's dormitories with W numbers. And so we finally met, and ended up getting married in '52. Bauman: So did you live in the dorms for about four years from about '48 to '52 then? Soldat: Yeah, before I got married, yeah. And we managed to get a house. Because I was in radiation protection, we had some small priority on getting housing. And we picked out a pre-cut on the south side, three-bedroom. So we lived there till '63. And moved in a ranch house where I live now on Torbett, in a remodeled ranch house with an extra bedroom. Bauman: About how large were the dorms that you lived in? Soldat: The dormitories? Well, I'd say maybe as big as from here to that wall square. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: About how many people lived in the dormitories as a whole? </div> </div> <div>Soldat: On the whole, I don't know. They had--since I was on weekly salary, I had one kind of dormitory. Those that were hired on monthly salary had a little fancier ones. And the women had their own real good ones with a fence around it.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: So what was Richland like in the late '40s and early '50s in the community? Soldat: Well, when I finally moved into town, the town, essentially, was closed. If you didn't work there, you couldn’t live there. You could come in. There was no fence around it. But if you retired, you had to go somewhere else to live. There was no retirement housing. And the city, when I got my house, supplied oil, or coal, free for the housing. So the rent was fairly reasonable at that time. And they had the federal government until, I think it was '58, when they sold houses to us, and got their own government. One of my friends, Bob McKee, was on the church council. And he became, eventually, mayor of Richland. His funeral is coming up Thursday. He died away back in the spring. But they delayed the funeral for relatives, I guess. But, anyway, I got a reasonable price for my house, I thought. It was like about $9,000 plus, because I had put up a fence, and a little thing for storage of garbage cans and stuff. They thought it was the enhanced above the original value. So I got a little better value. We had the option of taking a buy back offer. If you wanted to sell the house back to the government in x number of years, they would give you a 15% discount on your house. But I didn't opt for that. I figured by then, I was going to stay. [LAUGHTER] They had a cafeteria in a building next to the 703 Building, that old Quonsethut-shaped building, that later became commercial facilities. But we could go in there for breakfast and get meals that were partly for military style, like powdered scrambled eggs and stuff like that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what about entertainment at the time you were living in the dorms? Were there things to do entertainment-wise? Soldat: Oh, okay. The people that lived in the dormitories could join the dorm club. We did all kinds of things. We had parties, dances, skiing, bike riding, hiking—everything before all these individual groups were established. So they covered the whole share. I learned to ski a little bit at Spout Springs, made it down the beginner's hill. Bauman: And you said you met your wife during that time? Soldat: Yes. Bauman: Was she working also at the Hanford Site, then? Soldat: She was a secretary. And she worked for a while. We got married in June, and in December, she had to quit because she was pregnant. They would not allow, at that time, pregnant women to work after fourth or fifth month. And then she never did go back to work. But she got involved in things like volunteering at the Red Cross, and Republican Women's Club, and all the things kept her busy. Bauman: Did you meet as part of some social activity? Or was it on the job, at work that you met? Soldat: She did all this being a housewife, all those things. Bauman: But how did the two of you meet? Was it at a-- Soldat: I'm trying hard to remember. Bauman: Oh, okay. [LAUGHTER] Soldat: I think I was introduced by a mutual friend, a guy that I used to bowl together. That's the other thing we had for entertainment in Richland, was bowling. And I liked doing that. But one of the guys I bowled with, we went to the restaurant. Next to the Richland Players Theater used to be a drug store, and they had a little cafeteria in there. We went in there, and we met these two women. And he knew one of them. The other one was going to become my wife. [LAUGHTER] </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Let's move now to the work you did at Hanford. What was your first job? Soldat: My first job while I was waiting for my clearance was in what was the bioassay lab in 700 Area doing statistical analysis of the results of the analysis of employees’ urine for radioactive contamination. I wasn't allowed to know everything I was analyzing. But I did a statistical analysis. I had a orange card, which allowed me in, because I didn't have my clearance. Theoretically, I was supposed to be escorted in and out. But there was such a mob of people going in and out they never bothered to ask me whomy escort was. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So where was this at? Soldat: 700 Area, 703 Building—the old one. And the bioassay lab was inside the 716 Building, I think it was. Bauman: And so how long did you do that? Soldat: I did that--well, I came in August, '48. And it was five months before I got my clearance. Then I went out to T Plant as a radiation monitor in training. Bauman: And how long did you work there? Soldat: Oh, gosh, I worked there for a couple of years. And then I got transferred to environmental monitoring. Out there in 2-East Area, environmental monitoring people were housed in an old Quonset hut next to the coal pile. You had to go in and sweep your desk off with a broom every morning to get the coal dust off of it. [LAUGHTER] And I stayed there for a while. I did some projects, calibrating some instruments, and other things. And then we moved to 329 Building in 300 Area. I think it was in the early '50s. And I stayed in environmental monitoring work ever since, through the rest of my career, writing impact statements, deriving equations for calculating dose to the public from releases at Hanford in food, and water, and air, and stuff like that. And my models are still being used some places. I was--we didn't have a lot of data. But I learned from the turtle you don't make progress unless you stick your neck out. That’s how they do. Sometimes throw darts at the chemistry chart on the wall. And say, well, this one should behave like that one, and put together what we could know. And my coworker Dave Baker was a computer guy. I'm not very good at computers. But he computerized a lot of my equations and stuff. Between us, we agreed and what kind of factors to use. There was some literature from the fallout studies. There was a fellow named Yoka Ng, N-G, in California who had to put together a lot of data for the fallout branch on concentrations of various chemical elements in soil and plants, which made it very easy for me to predict the update of the radionuclides. Bauman: So, what kind of findings did you have at some of your research about things that happened at Hanford in terms of the air, and water, and so forth? Soldat: Well, depends on what you want. It all started in '58 when Jack Healy gave a paper at the International Atomic Energy Symposium. And he talked about what we were measuring in the environment, and the kind of findings that we had. And we eventually created a maximum individual person who ate big amounts of food, and drank milk from cows, and fish from the river, and all that. And then we calculated the dose he would get from concentrations in these things. And things were generally below the limits that they had at those times. Originally, in the early years the limits for the public were the same as workers. It took them a while to figure out that there are, perhaps, more sensitive people in the public because workers were all health screened and everything. So they lowered all the public limits by a factor of ten to be safer. And we also had to put controls on releases to the atmosphere. The manager of the radiation protection department—it call was called health instruments at first—set limits for the reprocessing plants, and how much iodine they could release, and other things. And they worked hard during those years in the '50s and '60s putting in new cleanup equipment on the stacks—sand filters. And then eventually PUREX had fiberglass filters to remove the particles and stuff. So I've installed sampling equipment on all of the stacks, and the separation there is, some of them before and after the cleanup so they could see what the efficiency was. And I kept track, by going to the operating gallery, what kind of metal they were processing, how old it was, how much it had decayed, so we could relate things to what we were finding at the stacks. That data is still around. And when they did the dose reconstruction under Bruce Napier, they used a lot of my old data about the stack releases. Fortunately, Bruce had an office next to me. [LAUGHTER] So we communicated. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you worked there for how many years at Hanford? Soldat: 47. Bauman: 47, you must have seen a lot of changes in technology, instrumentation, those sorts of things? Soldat: And administration. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. GE, at one time, I think it must have been in the '50s, decided that they would have no job description titled assistant, or under-secretary, or whatever like that. There would be no committees doing any administration. Every job had to have a written, definitive description specifying the duties, and the authorities, and the obligations. And it worked well for a long time. And then before that, when I wanted to get a paper cleared, I had to go through about half a dozen signatures, including public relations, of course. But then later on, I--essentially with my boss and one guy from public relations--they all had to clear my public papers. And it worked out well then. Then Battelle took over, reorganized things a little bit. And a funny thing happened. I had a secret clearance with GE. When Battelle took over, they decided that they didn't want to have too many secret clearances to manage. So they lowered my clearance and several other people’s. I want to the library to get a report I had written in 1949, classified secret. They gave it to me on microfiche. I read it, and I asked for a full printed copy. The remark I got eventually was, you can't it. You're not cleared for it. What are you going to do, brainwash me? [LAUGHTER] So Battelle had to raise my clearance back to what it was before. Bauman: Because you had written secret reports? Soldat: I talked about iodine releases to the environment, and measurements inside the 200 Areas. Bauman: I understand you were involved in a comprehensive food model? Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: What was that? Soldat: Well, about the late '60s, Westinghouse had a project to try and calculate doses to the US public from a large nuclear economy, especially reactors, and ignoring the waste part. And they needed to know what would be in food, and water, and air, and everything. And a fellow by the name of Bill Templeton who was an aquatic biologist worked with me at first. And then, finally, he said, okay, Joe. You're doing all right. So he turned me loose. But I had a fellow, Dennis Harr, who came to Hanford from Alaska. He was a forest hydrologist. They assigned him to me to help look up the factors I needed. He came here to WSU--or to Pullman, really—and looked up all of thinking about how much a cow eats, how much water they drink, and how many acres of this and that is growing. So he was very helpful looking all that stuff up for me. I just sat down and wrote an equation. I had heard that in the Windscale accident that the iodine they released stuck about 25% to plants. So I used that factor. And I added that stuff from Yoka Ng with the soil to plant ratios. So I modeled the uptake from soil, and combine all that in a big long equation with about 21 parameters. And I gave a paper on that at an ANS meeting in the '70s. And I also developed a diagram—a pathway diagram I call it--with all of the lines from all of the sources going across and interacting. And then at the end, they combined for the dose at the end. And that got published, too, in my '70 paper. And I did put all that stuff together with some other things for Reg Guide 1.109. It included my calculated dose factors for people of four ages--four years, 11 years, 17 or 16, and adult, because the organ sizes are different. So the doses are different. That was in there, my food model was in there, and then I developed a model for exposure to sediment in the Columbia River. Dick Perkins had measured three or four radionuclides in the sediment in the Columbia River as best you could, because it's awful rocky on the bottom. And analysis of that told me what the relationship was between the water and the sediment, assuming it had been running for many years, and had time to come to equilibrium. So I developed the equation for that, which included the radioactive half-life of the elements. And that was used in several instances in impact statements about--I think it was '59, they had something called a Calvert Cliffs Decision, in which they were trying to build a reactor. And the government was forced to do an environmental impact statement on every existing reactor and every new reactor. First rule was 100 pages’ length. But it still grew, because people were copying what other people had done. Well, this flew, so we'll put it in. Then they add unique things to their site. And it kept growing and growing. But there were 50 reactors that had to have impact statements. And they split it up three ways between Argonne National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, and Hanford. And I got involved in the Hanford one. First time I used my sediment model was for plants on the shore of Lake Michigan, and exposure to people standing on the shoreline--first time I used it off-site. And we calculated the dose someone might receive from the sediment contaminated from the water which came from the reactor outlet that was diluted before it got to where the fishermen was. So that was added to the impact statement, along with the fish, and all the other stuff that we normally did. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Hanford, of course, when you first arrived was all about production. But at some point that shifted to cleanup. Did that shift impact your work in anyway? Soldat: Well, yes and no. [LAUGHTER] It changed exactly what I was doing. But I was still doing environmental stuff. For cleanup—well, before that we were doing impact statements for new things at Hanford, like a front end for PUREX to do 100 N fuel, and all kinds of stuff. Afterwards, I was doing impact statements and studies forproposed cleanup. There was a big, fat three-volume document--I think it was SWASH 1400, it started out. It ended up being ERDA 1400. And in there, they studied every possible waste source, contamination source, potential for accidents and exposure. And I did a lot of those calculations. So one thing they wanted, which is very current today, they wanted to know, what would happen if a tank leaked? They said, what would happen if 1,000 gallons of tank leaked all at once? So I got a guy, Andy Reisenhauer, in the water department we called them. He was doing ground water studies. And he figured it out. With this modeling, he showed how small the contaminated area would be, and how, essentially harmless and well-confined to the immediate vicinity it was. And I get all upset now a days about the clamor about everybody that don't understand what's going on, even the governor. [LAUGHTER] At least he tried. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: So when you started working for GE, what other contractors--you worked for Battelle? Is that right?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Yeah. Battelle just took over everything we were doing. Almost all people came directly to Battelle. There were a few that stayed in the 200 Areas the reprocessing areas. But some of them later came to Battelle. So a few stayed out there, worked for the various contractors they had. But it was nice, because having been altogether in GE, I could still communicate with those people when I needed information and data on releases, and access, and things. I could talk to them directly. I didn't have to go up and down the channels. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you had written a secret report. And you had to go back and look at it, they initially told you you couldn't. As a site that, obviously, emphasized security and secrecy, I wonder if you could talk about how the emphasis on secrecy and security impacted your work in anyway. Soldat: Well, I told you what happened to me when I was working in the 700 Area. And I got here in '48. In '53, they renewed the Q clearances. I got called in the FBI for interview. They said, when you were in college—that's like in '46 or '47--you attended a meeting of, I think it was, SDS, which was supposed to be a Communist-related organization. They had a meeting in the park. They were complaining about their treatment. And it was a big hullabaloo. And I decided I'd go down and see what was going on. Apparently, they had spies watching all these people. So they started asking me questions about that. And I explained it away to their satisfaction. They said, do you ever read The Communist Manifesto? I said, no, but maybe I should someday. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: When you first started working there, did you take the bus out to the site? Soldat: Pardon? Bauman: When you first started working there, how did you get to the site and back? Did you take the bus out? Did you drive a car? Soldat: There was no background checks when I first came, because I had that work card. It took them five months to do all the investigations of relatives and friends to find out if I was reliable. And I finally got my Q clearance. But they may have reviewed things other than that one I know about since. But the FBI was doing it at that time. Later on, they farmed it out to a different government agency. And I don't think the checks were quite as thorough at that time. But you couldn't drive through the project like you can today. When you want to go to the west side, you can drive down towards Vantage through the project. It's all right. But it used to be all sealed off. You had to go around by Robinson's barn to get where you're going. Bauman: And when you went through security at the gate, did you have to show a badge? Soldat: Well, after I got my clearance, they checked everybody's badge going through. At one time in 300 Area, they had a badge rack. You would put your badge in the rack to go home. They didn't want you taking it off site. Well, one thing, you might get exposed from TV. [LAUGHTER] The old TV sets had a relatively high energy coming out at the bottom. Some kid sat there with his feet under the TV set, he might get a little bit of exposure. And so one day, I wore some radiation dosimeters, those pencil dosimeters on myself while I was watching TV at a distance. And then I put some by the TV set to compare the readings. And there was a small difference. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, at first, I thought security was a little lax because of the way they were letting you go through 700 Area, first few months. But it got pretty tight afterwards. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Were there any events or incidents, anything that happened—accidents of any kind, that happened when you were working at Hanford, or strange occurrences? Anything sort of stand out in your mind?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Well, there was a few, of course. They had limits they set on the releases for iodine-131. They had an experiment in which they wanted to have short cooled fuel, which would have more iodine in it, to released short-lived inert gases like Xenon and Krypton to the atmosphere so the Air Force could fly around with a plane and measure it. As I figure out, the idea was they could fly around Russia and see what kind of production they might be having from what they could detect in the air over a facility. Well, when they had—it's called a green run, when they had that, the iodine came out. And there was a little bit of to-do about that in later years, and people being exposed. And even before the iodine releases were controlled, there was quite a few releases. But in later years, I used my rules of thumb I learned, and my models to predict what doses probably were in the early years before they had reconstruction done. And I came probably within a factor of two of what they spent millions of dollars to calculate. [LAUGHTER] But that was one thing. And then they had some fuel that was mislabeled, and it was short cooled, that released iodine in the 200 Areas. And we went out and studied the vegetation on the project, and all around. Well, it turns out the iodine was held in the tanks for a while. And the vegetation that we measured didn't have any until they transferred the solution to another tank. Then the iodine escaped. And then we could find it on the vegetation—we found it in the Pasco area, and West Richland. And the meteorological group predicted it would--according to the weather, it should be high in north of Pasco. Well, it wasn't high there. It was higher in Benton City than it was in Richland. And there was a Benton City farm that had milk. And we sampled that milk every day for a long time, and plotted the curve as it decayed. And I backtracked it for a couple of days that we had missed. And I calculated the radiation dose a kid might have drinking that milk. And the standard model was one liter of milk a day. And I calculated all that. And we couldn't get the kids to come in to get a thyroid check for awhile. The mother was reluctant. Finally, he came in months later. And at that point, I predicted the thyroid burden ought to be 70 picocuries. And it turned out, he was measured 72 picocuries. Then something really interesting happened with that. Some anti-nuclears said that I had reported on this thing, and the dose was less than a fraction of the limits. So it's all right to die by a fraction at a time. Somebody else picked that up, and said I had pin pointed the death of a small child drinking that milk. So some guy from Oak Ridge, his name was Piper, investigated all this stuff, and tried to put everything straight, and straighten out all these misconceptions. But you can see what happens to the press. Bauman: So what time period was that? Soldat: That was in '63. It's all published in Health Physics Journal, and all that stuff. They had an iodine symposium in 1963—a biology symposium. People all over the world came here. And we met in the old community house, this little anteroom off to the side, with swamp coolers. And it was 116 in Pasco. [LAUGHTER] It was a mess. But we published a whole book of the papers. And I have a couple in here, at least by abstract anyway. I learned alot about the different factors, again, and improved my knowledge of what was going on. Bauman: So when there were releases of iodine, you were involved in calculating the-- Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: Measurements? Soldat: Yeah, another thing I did was I stood out by a met tower wearing a respirator device that measured my breathing rate by volume. And they released iodine--I think it was 135 or 132, a real short half life--that another guy and I could stand there and inhale. And then we went and got our thyroids counted, and watched the decay, and integrated the whole thing. And my total dose was probably about ten millirem, compared to the limit, which was 1,500 a year at that time. Herb Parker got real mad, because we hadn't checked with him to see if it was okay. He said we should have our thyroids examined before we did it. [LAUGHTER] </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you were used as test subjects? Soldat: The other release was from REDOX--ruthenium--there was two rutheniums: 106, and 103. And the scrubber in the plant that was supposed to remove these from their exhaust failed. And it released about 40 curie of ruthenium out the stack. It was detectable on Wahluke Slope, and all the way up just southeast of Spokane. It missed all of real good farms, and everything, fortunately. So we went up collecting a lot of samples from that. Then there was a contamination on Hanford itself on the roofs of some of the buildings and the ground. So that was all cleaned up. I spent some time monitoring transportation workers who were going around picking up particles around the 200 Areas. The other thing that happened is they found radioactive rabbits and coyotes--BC trenches, in 2 East Area. They disposed of waste which had cesium. And, of course, it's a salt relative to sodium in the nucleic chart. And the rabbits got in there were eating the waste with the cesium, and digging down. And the coyotes were eating the rabbits. And so we were finding this contaminated environment, and traced it down to that. It didn't travel more than a mile or two. Rabbits have a very short range. They don't travel more than a couple miles. And so that had to all get cleaned up, and covered over, put to rest. There was a few things like that. Bauman: Did any of these incidents or releases--were there ever any that you looked at, studied, calculated, and found that it was a risk to employees, or to the public at all? Soldat: No, most of them were--the release of the strontium, the highest concentration found at Wahluke Slope across the river was--if a guy stood there and breathed the whole time the cloud time went by, he might have got 80 milligram to the lungs. And, of course, at that time, we were getting 100 milligram a year from radiation. And the limit to the public was 1,500. So, really, it wasn't that significant. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about a little bit different part of it. President Kennedy visited in 1963 to open the N Reactor. Soldat: Yeah, I want to see-- Bauman: Were you there? Were you part of it? Soldat: I was standing far back in the crowd. And I could barely see the President. They opened up to the site to the public to go there. And I rode with a friend. And he and his son went with me. We watched that thing. Bauman: Do you remember anything else about that day? Or just being really far away? Soldat: Well, I remember when the helicopter landed with the President inside it, kicked up an awful lot of dust. I was glad that maybe it wasn't all that contaminated for people to breathe. Bauman: Do you remember any other time when any dignitaries came to the site? Soldat: Yeah, I just noticed something I looked at this week. Nixon visited Battelle facilities, the main research building. And Ronald Reagan was here one time. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: I wondered what you would consider the greatest challenges you had during your years working Hanford, and the greatest rewards?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Well, I don't know. The least of my challenges was working with administration, because usually they managed to turn me loose when they found out what I was doing. I think that the challenge was finding data in the open literature that I could use to put into my models. I'd go to the library in those days, you would ask for literature, and sit down, and read it, and take notes—not like today. So I found things, eventually, from researchers in Russia who had studied uptake and radionuclides in fish, and studies at Oak Ridge on fallout in cattle, and all these things. But finding data was a little hard, not because it was classified. But it was in the open literature, and you had to think about where it might be located. That was one of my most challenging things. The other challenge was to learning how to use Word Perfect. [LAUGHTER] My secretary forced me to learn it. She helped teach me because she couldn't read my handwriting. That was a challenge for a while. I still have trouble with computers. But I think the biggest reward was all of the recognition I got from management, and Health Physics Society, and other groups. I got a file about that thick that I labeled Kudos. And when they have the recouplex incident in 234-5that had a solution that wasn't handled right. And it had a nuclear reaction, in an outfit called recouplex. We worked a week or so overtime in evening, and around the clock some of us, working on the effects of that, and the dose to the people. And I had measurements of the stack gases. And I predicted from the stack gases how many fissions had occurred in that pot. And then the other guys, the real nuclear experts, came and did theirs. And we agreed within a factor of two again. But, yeah, it never really did much off-site again. It dissipated before it got anywheres. We plotted the path, and by the time it reached the boundary of the site over towards Pasco it was essentially nothing. Because whenyou have a nuclear reaction like that, you generate a lot of short-lived radionuclides with seconds, and minutes, and days. And so it really wasn't that effective off-site. Bauman: What was the time period of that incident? Soldat: I want to say April '62, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Being involved in environmental monitoring, and monitoring the effects of releases and that sort of thing, did you at any point—it seems like at some point, nuclear power became--like, certain groups opposed that, right? You hadgroups that became opposed to nuclear power, and the use of-- Soldat: Obtained what? Bauman: Opposed to nuclear power-- Soldat: Oh, oh. Bauman: Anti-nuclear stuff. Did you feel that at all at work, I mean or stuff you were involved in? Soldat: Well, yeah--well, there are people off-site who--that story I told you about that small child. And then there was another guy, he worked at the University of Pittsburgh. I'm trying to remember his name. He predicted all the dire results of fallout from strontium-90. He gave a talk at strontium-90 symposium in biologyput on here one time. And he came to me and says, I need to get my slides remade. What he was doing was correlating the concentration of strontium-90 in milk and leukemia in children. Well, this curve went to pot. And he decided he needed to summarize, average it, over two years. And eventually that went to pot. It didn't work. So then he eventually tried four years. And he asked me if I could get his slides rebuilt for his talk so he could use them for a four-year average. So I went to Bill Bair who was the manager of the symposium. And he said, sure, we'll do it for him. And they did. And he used them. Of course, a lot of people in the audience knew better than to believe what he was saying. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you would like to talk about? That I haven't asked you about? Soldat: Well, I got some awards. I don't know if you're interested. The local chapter Health Physics Society gave me what's called a Herb Parker Award for Distinguished Service. And then I got elected fellow of the National Society. And then I got the National Distinguished Scientific Achievement Award from the Health Physics Society, which was sort of a review of my total career, and all the, quote, the great things that I had done. The environmental section in the National Health Physics Society established an award for environmental radioactivity measurements type of stuff. And a fellow, a friend, Jack Corley, who worked here, and I got the first ones that they awarded for that as distinguished service. And then I got a plaque from Bill Bair when he was retiring. So he's such a nice guy, he awarded about three or four plaques to employees outlining their distinguished careers. I was one of them. And it's for all the work I had done on radioiodine. So I got that plaque. Bauman: And you're involved in the Herbert Parker Foundation? Is that right? Are you part of that? Soldat: I volunteered not to get involved in the Parker Foundation. I let Ron Kathren, and Bill Bair and Dale Denham, and all these guys do it. I worked for a little while after I retired for Dave Muller and Associates to help with the down-winders case, writings some papers on it, and releases, and another one with Jack Selby on plutonium releases from the 200 Areas that were used in the hearings for that business. I haven't really--well, people call me up every once in a while and ask questions—pro bono. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Overall, how would you assess your 47 years working at Hanford as a place to work? Soldat: For me, it was a great job. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I had wonderful people, except maybe one case of this one boss. But totally great people, and I felt like I was doing something worth while. And it was useful. Later on, it got to be where everybody was writing impact statements, which are not a product. It bothered me a little bit. Even I got involved. And those were kind of necessary. EPA at one time says, we need you to calculate the effect of this dose out to the year 10,000. I said, what? So I got out my business card. And I changed it from environmental engineer to science fiction writer. [LAUGHTER] But I had a great time. I tried to get in the army when I first graduated from high school. And I couldn't because of my ears. And the Navy wouldn't take me because of my eyes, the program for officers. So I ended up—third choice was out here to do my part. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your stories with us, and your experiences. I appreciate it. Soldat: I hope it's been useful. Bauman: Yes. Thank you. Soldat: Yeah, just carrying this around helped me remember. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:53:44 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 209 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area 2-East Area 329 Building 300 Area 200 Area N Reactor 703 Building 716 Building Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1948-1995 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 McKee, Bob Baker, Dave Healy, Jack Templeton, Bill Harr, Dennis Perkins, Dick Andy Reisenhauer Parker, Herb Corley, Jack Kathren, Ron Bair, Bill Denham, Dale Muller, Dave Selby, Jack Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Soldat Description An account of the resource An interview with Joe Soldat conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-30: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/6/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 2-East Area 200 Area 300 Area 329 Building 700 Area 703 Building 716 Building Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e9a9cbcf1c7f449f74529714193705f.jpg 8031c3bd0c3c2f1187495beccf1b84dc https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c6d38853ba5f906a52b9c2a5911471b.mp4 de0ccd6fcb04dc6735e197f7cbcbc15a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Soldat Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Soldat Description An account of the resource An interview with Joe Soldat conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd6c77308885ccc1dd563285937f9e849.JPG 87d38ef7972a3113d8f0b134c209c51c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F398bd1450eec3a75a54e04dd5debade9.mp4 b516a9c754c5e403e48b906ff90f3b1a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanis Daniels Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Williams Location The location of the interview Home of Joe Williams (Pasco, WA) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [camera operator]: It’s recording. Vanis Daniels: I better turn mine on? [camera operator]: No. Daniels: Okay. [camera operator]: Go ahead. Daniels: Good afternoon, my name is Vanis Daniels. We are here to interview Mr. Joe Williams. We are from the Historical and Recognition Committee, which is a sub-committee of Triple-A-S. We would like to interview you and find out, if we could, please, some of the things that you did when you first came to the state of Washington, and why you came. We’ll start with, when did you arrive in the Tri-City area? Joe Williams: Is Tri-City and Hanford the same thing? Daniels: Yes. Williams: In 1943, I think. It was in February. Daniels: Did you come alone? Or if not, who came with you? Williams: My wife, and the three other fellow workers. Daniels: Okay, could you give me their names, please? Williams: I can give you their nicknames. One of them they called Long Coat and the other one High Pocket. Daniels: Okay. And your wife’s name? Williams: Was Velma. Daniels: Okay. Approximately how old were you? Fields: He was a young man. Williams: Years, I can’t remember, but I was pretty young then. Daniels: Where did you live before you came to the Tri-Cities? Where did you come from when you came to the Tri-Cities? Williams: From California. Daniels: Okay. Fields: And prior to that, where were you? Where did you come from? Daniels: Yeah, where were you originally from? Fields: Because he came from the South. Williams: Where I’m originally from? Daniels: Yes. Williams: South. Alabama. Atmore, Alabama. Daniels: Okay. What kind of work did you do in Alabama, before you left Alabama? Williams: Well, I was putting out magnesite, and spark-proof and concrete and bricks. Daniels: And after you moved to California? Williams: The same trade. I was shipped from Alabama to California. Daniels: Okay. How did you hear about Hanford? Williams: I was sent from Mare Island Navy Yard, by the Col., to Hanford. Daniels: And you decided to come because of your job? Williams: I was drafted. Daniels: How did you travel when you came to Hanford? By car, train --? Williams: By car. Daniels: Okay. And how long did it take you to get here? Williams: They gave us five ten-hour days to drive from California up here, but we couldn’t drive but 25 miles an hour. Five working days. Daniels: Where was the first place you stayed after you arrived in the Tri-Cities? Or at Hanford? Williams: Hanford. I stayed at Barrack 205. At Hanford. Daniels: Okay. Now, was that a segregated barracks, or was it--? Williams: Yep. Daniels: How did you get to and from work? That means from the barracks to the job and back. Williams: They had what they called buses that they’d bus us from the cafeteria to the job. Daniels: And what kind of work did you do after you went to work? Williams: See, I was a brick layer, cement finisher, and putting out spark-proof and magnesite. Daniels: Now, do you remember any of the areas that you worked in out there at Hanford? Williams: 200-East, 200-West, and 205. Daniels: Do you remember the name of your employer, the man that you worked for? Or the company you worked for? Williams: It was Marine Decking Company out of New York. But at that time, DuPont had the job—assumed it from the government. And we were transferred out there to put out magnesite and spark-proof. And rubberizing those plug tanks. Daniels: How did you feel about working at Hanford? Williams: Oh, I felt the same working one place I did; it didn’t make no difference. Because I working strictly on the old manpower labor board. Daniels: How were you treated on your job? Williams: Well, on the job, fine. Didn’t have no trouble. It was segregated. The black worked with the blacks, and the white worked with the whites. Daniels: What was the hardest thing you found that you had to get adjusted to by being in a new place and new surroundings? Williams: Well, at that time I had been transferred about 20 times–it wasn’t nothing to get adjusted to because I be used to it. Daniels: What did you and your coworkers do in your off hours? When I ask you that, I mean like, where did you go, where did you spend your time? You know, like if you had clubs you could go to, or churches. What did you do for relaxation, I guess I’m asking you. Williams: They had a big room, there in those barracks–that were full wing barracks–and one room was a rec-room. And in that rec-room they had every kind of game that you could play, or you could do this. If you wanted to shoot dice or gamble in the middle of the week or the street, it was legal. Daniels: Let’s shut it off. [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Okay. How long did you work at Hanford? Williams: Three-and-a-half years. Daniels: Okay. Now, did you have any idea what you were working on? Did they give you any information about what you were doing? Did they say anything to you as to whether you should talk about what you were doing or anything like that? Williams: You couldn’t talk about nothing you was doing. With nobody. Daniels: And, did you know what—have any idea what you were building or what you was contributing to, or anything? Williams: Nope. Because you go in one cell; if you was in Cell 45, you wouldn’t know what they was doing in Cell 18–now, you stuck with 45. And that’s where I was stuck, on Cell 45. Leonard Moore: And Cell 45, it was a work room? Williams: No, that down in the ground, 45 feet deep. Moore: Oh, it was an area. Williams: Uh-huh. Where you had the rubberizing. Rubberizing, spark-proofing and all like that. No crew worked—they worked in once place. It wasn’t the way you work here and work there. I was assigned out as being a chief rubberizer, spark-proof, stop any leaks that ever started. That’s what we were transferred all the way from back east here for that. Weren’t but eight peoples in the United States had that trade and I was dumb enough to be one out the eight. Moore: Let’s talk about the barracks. Daniels: Okay. In living in the barracks, were you and your wife able to live together? Williams: Nope. Daniels: Would you tell us a little bit about how you guys lived out in the barracks? Williams: She lived in the women barracks and I lived in the men barracks. And they had wired fences up like penitentiary around all the women barracks. And the only way you could get in there—you had to get—you could visit–and they had a big rec-room and that’s far as you could get. You didn’t know what room she slept in, or didn’t know nothing. You could go in the rec-room, that’s far as you could go. But she could come to the men’s barracks, down there, and go all the way through it. But a man couldn’t go in the women’s barrack without going through the police, or the guard, or whatever he was. Daniels: Okay. Do you remember any African Americans that you worked with at Hanford? Any black people? Williams: Did I remember--? Daniels: Remember any of them’s names? Williams: In the beginning or the ending? Daniels: All the way through. Williams: Well, in the beginning, no. I just knew the one that was shipped out. Eight of us had this trade in the United States, the whole United States, only eight of us had this, what they can stop any leaks, rubberize all [UNKNOWN] tanks. And that’s why we were transferred all over the country. But later on up in the year I recognized some. But we never knew what each other was doing. Us four was together, but they never would let but two of us work side by side. It always be somebody else that you didn’t know and they didn’t know you when you was in those cells. Daniels: Okay. Now, If, when you—after, in other words, since you couldn’t talk about what you did, and you didn’t know what the project was about, when did you learn that you were working on the Manhattan Project or that you were helping the war effort by the job that you were doing? Williams: After they started testing it. We didn’t know what we was doing. We was just doing, in one cell. Men worked in 45 cells, and I don’t know nothing but for the one. You don’t work—don’t nobody work in each other’s cells. About five different craftsman worked in the cells. And we was on the high—what they call it, when it says, it started at one up to three? Daniels: Clearances. Williams: What? Daniels: Clearances. Williams: Yeah. Q Clearance. Daniels: Right. Williams: And 45, that was the toughest ward in the whole place because it was 45 foot in the ground. And now what happened in the other cells, I don’t know no more than you do. That’s the only cell I worked in. Daniels: Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the things that you have done since you left Hanford? Williams: Oh, I left Hanford, and come to Pasco and started to try to do business there and had things where the banks didn’t lend no money on the east side of 4th Street. And we started a little mortgage company. A bunch of us pooled-in. And about the time as it got ready to start up and draw a little money out and leave, one more guy had a little write-up in a paper that we’re going through anyway. And then here come a guy out of Spokane with Intermountain Mortgage started to lending money there in Pasco. Daniels: And once they started loaning money, did you go into business for yourself? And if so, what kind of business and were you prosperous in your adventure? Williams: Yeah, I started in the home building, which, that’s all I ever do. I started at 15 years old. Daniels: And you owned your own company? Williams: Yep. Daniels: And did you always live in the Tri-Cities? Or did you leave the Tri-Cities? Williams: Yeah, I left Tri-Cities and worked in Alaska. Daniels: How long did you live in Alaska? Williams: Twenty-some years. Daniels: Did you own your own business in Alaska? Williams: Yeah. Daniels: Then you left Alaska, and--? Williams: Come to Oregon to retire. More like retarded. Fields: [LAUGHTER] Daniels: And since you have been here in Oregon, have you enjoyed it? How has life been here in Oregon for you? Williams: It’s like a dream come—a good dream come true. Daniels: Were you able to do any extra work, or anything after you moved here to Oregon? Williams: I stayed flooded with work. Daniels: And you built—how many homes have you built since you’ve been down here in Oregon? Williams: About thirty-something. Daniels: All right. And is there any of them close enough where we could look at them? Williams: Yup. Daniels: Can I ask one personal question, and you don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to. What range of house would you build? Did you build? Williams: I built dream homes. Fields: Sure did. Daniels: That’s all I needed to know. [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Mr. Williams, since you left Hanford and after you left Hanford and moved to the Tri-Cities and started your own business, could you tell us a little bit about your life at Hanford? And before we get started with you, I would like to introduce your daughter, Bessie May Williams-- Fields: Doctor Bessie May Williams-Fields. And this is my father, Joe Williams. And I am the second child of my father and my mother, Velma and Joe. Daniels: Now, if you could, could you tell us a little bit about your life after you moved to Pasco from Hanford? Williams: You talking to me? Daniels: Mm-hmm. And Mrs. Fields—Fields. Williams: What part of that life you asking about? Daniels: Well, what did you-- Fields: I can share some basic stuff that I remember, when my father—A long time ago, you know where they had the railroad tracks? Front Street is where I remember living there with my father and my mother and their children, my sisters and brothers. And we lived in a house that I think dad built himself, and he also built a café there. There were very, very few people of color living in Pasco at that time. It was a lot of tumbleweeds. When my father moved up on Orange Street, there was nothing but tumbleweeds. And that’s where you built, he built a really, really nice house on Orange Street. But he’s built numerous homes on Orange Street. And they also started the first church there in the state of Washington—Pasco, Washington. My uncle, my father, my mother, they started praying in their homes, and they started uniting together and from that became the biggest church in Pasco, Washington today, Morning Star Baptist Church. Tremendous minds got together and they did tremendous things. [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Wait, just before you start. [camera operator]: Go ahead. Daniels: Make sure you tell us about the red line. In other words, once you got past 1st Street or 4th Street, or wherever it was, nobody would loan you any money. Where they red-lined east Pasco. Williams: Oh yeah. Okay, I see. Daniels: Mr. Williams, could you tell us a little bit about the living conditions and the availability of funds for black people or being able to better yourself in Pasco? Williams: The banks had a boundary. Nobody on the east side of 4th Street would they lend. Nobody, to nobody. On the east side of 4th Street. Daniels: And, you said that you started your own little banking industry? Williams: Just me and my brother-in-law and the relations and a friend pooled up X amount dollars and was going to start a loaning company. And, when we got up to where we had about, oh, $60,000-$70,000, before we could open it up, they chickened out. Well, me and one of the boys just kept on and we pretend that we was doing it, and it got in the paper. And then Intermountain Mortgage come out of Yakima and started to lending money then. We put the bluff in there because Buck and Luzell and all them chickened out. And we just had that in the paper that we were going to go ahead anyway. And that’s what started the foreigners coming in as an outfit for Intermountain Mortgage out of Spokane, Washington. Daniels: And were you able to go in restaurants, and sit down and have a meal? Or was it segregated? How did you do for getting haircuts, et cetera, et cetera? Williams: Well, it wasn’t any place, legally, for haircuts. And we had one colored guy run a café there, that’s the only one you could go in. I forget the name of it. And no place for cleaning or laundry; you had to settle to Walla Walla, Washington. Daniels: Okay. Fields, you went to school in Pasco. Could you elaborate on that a little bit for us? Tell us about the conditions, the hardships you ran into. And just growing up and going through school. Fields: I started school, I think, around 1945, and I graduated in 1958. During that time there were not a lot of people of color going to school. There are very few people that I can think of that was real inspirational in terms of my academic years in school. I do remember that I had a math teacher that was an excellent teacher, Mr. Metcalf. But I found, as a person of color, I did not have a lot of support; I didn’t have a lot of encouragement in terms of what I should do with my mind. I was always told that I had good dexterity, which I was real good in my fingers, and I was encouraged to, perhaps, be a beautician. To me that was like an insult, because I felt that, maybe if black people were still picking cotton, that would have been a perfectly good place for me to go, because I had good dexterity in my hands, to start picking cotton. But I didn’t get the kind of encouragement and the support I think I could have gotten had we not had a segregated, in some sense of the word, even though blacks and whites did go to school together. But they did not, specifically did not want you to mingle together. Because I and another student, a white male, and me, a black woman, or student, was holding hands as we walked down the halls in the school, going to each other’s locker. And we was called into the principal’s office, and sat down, and talked to us about, do your parents know that you’re black and he’s white and you guys are co-mingling together? And made a big deal out of something that was really relatively nothing. So, my experiences at the high school level was not the most positive experience that I had. No jobs. When I graduated from high school, did you see people as role models? Black people that you could look up and say, wow, I can do that. No, you didn’t have any role models, so what could you do? I left there, what, in the ‘60s? I think I left maybe—no, I think I left there in 1959, Pasco. Because I saw no way for me to—I didn’t have role models. You need role models. You need people support and encourage you. You have family, but what about, you know, other people? It just wasn’t there at that time. Hopefully it’s different now, but I don’t know. [VIDEO CUTS] Fields: --you can ask me that. Daniels: Yeah. Back to Williams. In the Tri-Cities, was there, like, any other high schools around? What do you know about blacks and academically? And, just, how was it? Fields: I think, in terms of academia, and blacks at this college –not college, but—yeah, I did go to Columbia Basin College for a while. But prior to that, while I was in high school, in fact, when I graduated there was only two of us that graduated the year that I graduated in ’58. But my experience academically, there wasn’t, like I said earlier, a lot of academic support for people of color. And in terms of working at Hanford, I wasn’t cognizant that they was even hiring people at Hanford. Coming out of high school, no one ever told me that there was job openings at Hanford that I could even try to apply to a position. So, I did not work there, nor did I even know they was hiring people to work there at that time when I graduated from high school. I just tried to look at the shops and maybe get a job at some of the shops, but I was never hired. Don’t call us, we’ll call you. [LAUGHTER] Daniels: Did you intermingle with any of the high school kids from Kennewick and Richland? Fields: No, I think Kennewick was kind of like, and Richland, was kind of, forbidden territory. You know, you wasn’t, you didn’t feel accepted when you went there. So, I didn’t really go over there very often. Seldom. Very seldom did I ever go. And I’d heard of experiences of people of color who had gone over there and they were negative experiences, so therefore you wasn’t encouraged to go over there. [VIDEO CUTS] [camera operator]: Go ahead. Daniels: Okay, Dr. Fields, you have since gone on and furthered your education. Would you like to tell us about it? Fields: Yes, I did. I went to Portland State University in Portland, Oregon. I left Pasco, Washington and moved to the state of Oregon. I got married, and I married a person by the name of Fredrick Marshall Fields. He was black. He also went to Pasco Senior High School. But I left there. We had two children. And then I went back to school and I got a baccalaureate degree in education, because I wanted to teach children. And when I graduated with my degree in elementary ed., at the same time that I graduated, Portland State University, who I never even applied for a position, called me up and asked me would I apply for a position there? And I also had an offer to teach sixth grade in the state of Oregon. But then when I thought about it, why not work at the college, because that’s like working at the house of knowledge, and you can work and go to school constantly. So, then I worked there for 12 years, and during that 12 years I completed my Master’s Degree in counseling, so I was counseling when I left. And then I left there and I went on vacation in Alaska. I was hired there, almost, like, on the spot, to work as a counselor there. And then, while I was there working at the house of knowledge again, I went back to college and I got my doctorate in education administration. And I still work in academia today. I teach college and I’m also a counselor. And then I also do work with people who are mentally and physically challenged. Daniels: And how many sisters and brothers do you have? Fields: It’s ten of us all together. And I’m the second of ten. And I think there are nine of us currently living in—well, maybe there could be one brother living in Pasco, or in the state of Washington now. Daniels: Could you tell us a little bit about what they do? Fields: I have a sister that’s an accountant. I have a brother that’s working for the federal government. I have another sister who worked on the pipeline in Alaska. Some working for Boeing. And so, all of us are doing quite well in the fields that we chose. Moore: So, basically with Mr. Williams coming to this area, and raising his family here, it brought a lot to the area as a whole. Okay, so, that’s what we want to get out of that. [VIDEO CUTS] Williams: In Hanford, you was associated with your grade average. Peoples you knew you didn’t have nothing to do with them because your average was up here—your Q Clearance, and you stayed in the back with the peoples on the same Q clearance, eat with them, all the time. But the rowdy bunch, they couldn’t stay in the barracks that the guys with the high Qs lived in. They couldn’t eat in the mess hall with the high Qs. And I had Q-4, the highest. There was only ten of us. That’s all I can give you on account of the ten of us that worked together. Moore: So, you were pretty isolated. Williams: Yeah. We were totally isolated. Fields: Very isolated. Williams: See, the highest you could go was Q-4, and I was Q-4. And when it got down—all ten of us wasn’t no Q-4. There was only three of us made Q-4. Moore: Okay. [camera operator] Okay, go ahead. Williams: We did have a trailer. I pulled it down there just for that short period of time, then I bought them the thing from the railroad. Daniels: When you first moved to Pasco, you lived in a trailer -- Williams: Yeah. Daniels:--and then from a trailer then you built-- [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Okay, Mr. Williams, after you moved to Pasco, how did you live? Was it in a trailer, a house, or apartment? Williams: When I first went there I pulled a trailer in there. We lived in there. And the railroad had a row of one room of I think about six, and then one that had two rooms in it, and I bought that from the railroad on Front Street. And then from Front Street, I started to go on east building something to live in decent. Daniels: And when you left the Tri-Cities, did you own your own home when you finally relocated to Alaska? Williams: You mean, did I own my home in Alaska? Daniels: In Pasco. Williams: Yeah, I had seven homes there. Fields: Seven. Williams: Seven. Daniels: That’s what I’m trying to get out of you. And then you relocated in Alaska. Williams: Yeah. Fields: And built beautiful homes in—beautiful dream homes in Alaska. As well as in The Dalles, Oregon. Daniels: Were you allowed to build on the west side of Pasco, or were you limited to the east side? Williams: Limited to the east side, if I’m building them for myself. But if you wanted me to build you a house, I could build it over there. But I couldn’t build nothing on the east side of 4th Street. And I was stuck with what I was trying to do on the east side. And after I goofed up on putting in them foundations, they tore the playhouse down there and wouldn’t put in a grocery store. Because I wasn’t going to build no grocery store. Moore: Ask him about—let’s hear the story about the grocery store. Was that a company wanted you to build out? Williams: The company wanted me to put in a grocery store, kinda like the Eastside Market was, over there. But the guy was going to run it for me. And if I was going to borrow the money to build it, I wanted to run it for myself. And because I wouldn’t sign for him—me build the store, they supply the store and they run the store, they cut my funding off and told me they wasn’t going to lend me another nickel and I told him I didn’t give a damn. Moore: [whispering] Where was it located? Daniels: Where was it located at, Mr. Williams? Williams: What? Daniels: The store that they wanted you to build. Williams: It was over there off of--what street Velma stay on? Fields: Sycamore. Williams: It was off of Sycamore. Moore: All right. [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Okay, that just about concludes the questions and the interview. And we want to thank you, Mr. Joe Williams, and you, Dr. Fields for helping us out. Williams: You’re welcome, and I appreciate you coming. I didn’t know nothing when you got here, and I don’t know nothing when you leaving. So, nothing from nothing leaves nothing. [LAUGHTER] Fields: The pleasure was ours. Daniels: Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/gHiDjPyeU88">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 East 200 West Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Williams Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Segregation Discrimination School integration Description An account of the resource Joe Williams moved to the Tri-Cities in 1943 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56b90a01188132f85829e495d7c782be.png 9338734991302e4f3254e8bc8c00563c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F29dc51cce821886dd8fe895d7d81e06a.mp4 298d6a9212f92968d15182ab0928f171 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Abercrombie Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay, we are rolling. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Abercrombie on July 23, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? John Abercrombie: Okay. John C. Abercrombie. Last name is A-B-E-R-C-R-O-M-B-I-E. Franklin: Great. And John is--? \ Abercrombie: J-O-H-N, common spelling. Franklin: Great, thank you. So, John, let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. Abercrombie: Okay. Franklin: Where and when were you born? Abercrombie: I was born October 29, 1944, 6:20 P.M. Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: At the Spartanburg General Colored Hospital. Franklin: And where is Spartanburg? Abercrombie: Spartanburg is in South Carolina. Franklin: Okay. Spartanburg General Colored Hospital. Abercrombie: Yes, and that’s what’s stated on the birth certificate. Franklin: Right. Because the South—you were born into segregation. Abercrombie: Yes, I was, very much so. Franklin: Correct. And so Spartanburg was a segregated town. Abercrombie: Absolutely. Franklin: Can you talk about that? What was—how was the town laid out and where—what were African Americans restricted from doing or being--? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] Restricted from doing almost everything. In the black community, you had all stratas of economic involvement, because you were not allowed to live in white neighborhoods. The school that I attended, the elementary school that I attended when I first started was closed because it was condemned. The new school was approximately 100, 150 yards from my house. Yet there were white students living closer to the school who were bussed to a white school, and I had students that lived further away that had to pass two white schools in order to get to the black school. So it was a very segregated community. We had two black police officers that were not allowed to arrest any white people. They could call on another officer, and if he decided to, he would; otherwise it did not happen. In South Carolina, it was not until the mid—or actually the late ‘40s before the black teachers were paid the same as the white teachers. They had larger classrooms, they had less facilities, and obviously the buildings were not the same quality. So that was the type-thing that you had. We had the segregated buses; you were not allowed to sit in front of any white person. They did not have the sign designating that, but if some white person sat three-quarters of the way back, you’d have people basically hanging out the window because you could not sit in front of any person like that. The movie theaters, I never sat on the main floor of a movie theater until I came to Richland, because that’s the way it was in most of the places there. Looking back, I think most people do not understand and realize what you were put through, and what people suffered in order to do that. Jobs were restricted. And you had people that had done very well in school who were not allowed into jobs that basically paid a decent wage. People could not buy houses, because the banks would allow you more money to buy a car than they would a house. So basically, the typical of many of the Southern communities that were there. So. In the schools, basically, for every one dollar they would spend on a black kid, they would spend ten on a white student. Part of the Brown v. Board involved a case out of the area around Orangeburg, South Carolina, in which some students were walking nine miles a day each way to school. The parents asked for a bus; the school district refused. The parents bought a bus, asked for fuel. They also were denied that. And they ended up filing suit over that. Charles Hamilton Houston, who was one of the professors in charge of the law school, was kind of a techie. He went down and he photographed many of the schools that were utilized by the blacks. In many cases you could sit in the classroom and look through the wall to the outside. Some of the schools had outhouses. Some of them didn’t even have outhouses. And he also photographed some of the white classrooms, and there was a very distinct difference. That played a very large role in the case of Brown v. Board. And I won’t go into Brown v. Board. Oliver Brown and his daughter, his six-year-old daughter, had to walk past a white school, had to go through a railroad switching yard at the hours of school, which in the winter were dark, and then walk a mile to catch a bus to go to a white school—I mean, to a black school. So those were the types of things that many people had to put up with. Franklin: Brown v. Board effectively desegregated schools in 1950—? Abercrombie: I believe it was ’54. Franklin: How did that affect you? Abercrombie: It did not have much effect directly. As a result of that case, they were starting to build better schools. Actually, part of the South Carolina decision was that—not to integrate the schools, but that the schools should be equal. Not just in air quotes, but should be equal, which would have cost them a fortune. So the school that I went to in second grade, which was much superior to the one that I went to in first grade. Although I’m in the heart of the city, we didn’t have restrooms on the different levels of the school. It was a two-story school. You had to go outside and down into the basement in order to use it. But we even had restrooms in the classrooms in that building. Most of the schools that we used had been torn down because the quality of the school, the building, was not the same. Basically, nothing was equal. The principal of our elementary school had a PhD, and one of the few if not the only one in the district. So we had crosses burned on the schoolhouse lawn, similar to what happened when I went to college. I went to an integrated college. We did have one white student there. And it’s an interesting story how he got there. He actually attended a Ku Klux rally when they were talking about what they were going to do to this guy if they ever found him. Not to be outdone, we doubled our white enrollment the next year and had two white students. Franklin: Which college was this? Abercrombie: Livingstone College in Salisbury, North Carolina. Franklin: And is that an HBC? Abercrombie: HBCU. Historically Black College and University. Livingstone and Biddle University, which is now John C. Smith, played the first intercollegiate football game between black colleges. And so, John C. Smith is located in Charlotte, North Carolina, and Salisbury is about 40 miles away in Salisbury. Started as Zion Wesley Institute in 1879 and changed its name to Livingstone in 1887. During the time that I attended was sponsored by the AMEZ Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church. And it played a very important role in my life. Franklin: What did you study at Livingstone? Abercrombie: Cutting class. No. Actually, I was a chemistry major. Franklin: Chemistry major. And did you graduate from--? Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: How did a white—this is a little off-topic, but I’m just very curious. How did a white student end up at a HBCU? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] He was traveling by train. He was actually going to Livingston, Alabama. He started talking to some students on the train, and they said they were going to Livingstone. Well, he thought they were going to the town that he was going. So he basically got off the train with them. They had treated him so well, he said he liked the place, and so he actually enrolled. So that’s how he got there. Kind of an interesting story, but that’s how we ended up with him there. You find that we were not closed as a society. I remember one of the restaurants in—I guess you could call it “restaurant;” more of a hot dog stand—in Spartanburg, it had two entrances: one white and one colored. There’s a line that ran up the floor, up the wall, up the ceiling, and back down. We could not cross that line; they could if they wanted to. But the separate water fountains, they had refrigerated water; we had just a bubbler coming out. So it was the typical thing that sometimes people today don’t realize what was going on back then. Franklin: How did you hear about Hanford? Abercrombie: I heard about it from my college classmate, who was also a chemistry major, who interviewed in, I think, New York or somewhere, and actually came out the year before I did. I took an interview, got an offer for a job, came out sight unseen. I’m one of those people that looked in the encyclopedia, saw Evergreen State, and figured I’d be in tall trees and snow up to my armpits all year. I think when I first got here it was in excess of 100 degrees for the first 17 days and stuff. You know. So I got that one wrong, but it worked out very well for me, because our kids were in a very good school system. My daughter actually went back to the school that her mother and I had attended and has done well for herself. My son went to West Point, graduated from West Point. And he has two sons now currently at West Point. The oldest is majoring in chemical engineering; the second one is in the law program at West Point. He has a third son who is kicking on the football team for Mountain Point in Phoenix, Arizona, and has a couple of more records to wipe out to get his brother off the record book, eclipse him on the record book there. Franklin: Wow, that’s really wonderful. So you interviewed for—who did you interview with? What company did you--? Abercrombie: Actually, I interviewed with Isochem. Isochem was US Rubber and Martin Marietta. I interviewed with Bill Watson in Nashville, Tennessee. That was the closest he was coming to the area, and I drove from Spartanburg. The weather was bad, so I had to drive south to Atlanta and then up 75 to Nashville. Interviewed with him, got an offer for a job here. I filled out paperwork for my security clearance. It was approved just before I got here, so when I came here I had a Q clearance and went to work at the PUREX facility in 200-East Area. Franklin: Oh, great. What were your first impressions when you arrived? Abercrombie: What the hell have I gotten myself into? Understanding that I thought this was the Evergreen State, I came through what is now Interstate 84 to 82, and came in near the Boise-Cascade plant, which at the time did not have the filters on and stunk to high heaven. I had not been in many places that did not have trees. So I thought, you know, this must be what it’s like to land on the moon. So I got here. When we got to Richland, I stayed with my friend when we looked for houses. That was a different experience for me, because we would see an ad for a house, we’d call, oh, you’re the first person to call! And, we’ll meet you there in 30 minutes! And we get there—you know, somebody just pulled up 15 minutes ago and rented the house. So, sorry about that. I even had one gentleman tell me that I’d go bankrupt if I rented the house, buying furniture. And that’s kind of interesting because he ended up working for me a while later, and I never mentioned it to him. Franklin: Oh, man. Abercrombie: But those are the type things that you ran into. Which didn’t seem strange to me, because I’m coming from the South, and I guess didn’t have any expectations of much different. Franklin: Right. Where did you end up staying? Where did you—did you end up—you obviously ended up getting a house somewhere. Abercrombie: I ended up—the first house that we moved into was on Gilmore. Gilmore I don’t think is there anymore. It was between Gilmore and Gribble, basically right off of Jadwin, a block over from Jadwin, there were some apartments there, two-story apartments. 1107 Gilmore, Apartment 8 is where we started off, and then moved into an A house later. Then moved to another A house, and then finally bought a prefab before moving to south Richland. But anyway. Franklin: What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Abercrombie: I’d come from the South, you know, where basically all black neighborhoods. Not that people are different or that we saw them any different, but I’m now in a completely different environment. Looking for somebody that had shared experiences was sometimes difficult, because there were not very many black people here. They were starting to open for professional people. I think that that year we had, I don’t know, six, seven people come in. Some of the other contractors were starting to bring people in. So it was kind of a unique thing, I guess, looking back on it. Part of it had to do with race, part of it had to do with age. Because most of the people here were older and established. I don’t think that it was a racist thing as such, because we were all finding ourselves, opening our wings, finding opportunities for employment. When I’d been in the South, one of the reasons that I came out here is because I never even got a response from the companies that I had applied with back there. The interviews were somewhat limited on my part, but strictly on my part, because I worked as a journeyman bricklayer before I went to college. My intent was to go into home construction and other work. I was going to build and sell houses. So I came out here, because having a degree in chemistry, I figured that it would be good to have some experience should I need to go back into chemistry, should something happen to me physically in construction. So that was kind of the idea that I had. I would come out here and I was going to work for three years and I was going to go back. At the end of three years, I was offered the opportunity to go into supervision. I said, well, if I’m going to run a company, this is a good thing to do. So I stayed. And then I’m thinking about leaving again, I had a chance to go in as the equal opportunity coordinator and write the Affirmative Action plan. Well, if I’m going to go into management of some sort, this is not going to hurt me at all. So I stayed for that. Then, I did not want to do that as a life’s work, because I thought, at that time, foolishly, that that would be a limited opportunity. Because I thought that once we had the opportunities to do things then that would kind of go away. The opportunity came to go into labor relations, came along. So I went into labor relations and did a lot in human resource area. That opened up another opportunity to get into law enforcement. I worked as a Benton County reserve deputy for 28 years. So, we—finding different opportunities and exploring different things as we go along. Franklin: Oh, shucks, I just lost my question. Abercrombie: So, you’re not the only one. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No. No, not at all. Oh, I remember. What year did you come out? Abercrombie: I came out in 1967. Franklin: 1967, okay thank you. Abercrombie: Actually arrived in Washington June the 20th and went to work June 21st. Franklin: Hey, that’s exactly the same day that I started my job at Hanford. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Although that was in 2015. Abercrombie: Okay. Franklin: So a little bit later. But same—I remember that day very well. So, how would you describe life in the community in Richland when you were—you know, in the ‘60s when you were here. ‘60s and early ‘70s. Abercrombie: There were many aspects of it that were very good to me. Because, like I said, I was in a professional capacity. Kind of a homebody. So I did not get around a lot. Was not a social butterfly, getting around. The opportunities were there. It was a little bit limiting personally because, coming from a small school, you’re going up and competing against people that have been to University of Washington and the University of God-knows-whatever, but large institutions. You come into an area and you’re looking to compete against these people. But I think the biggest aspect and biggest thing that I had learned was how to do research, how to find out information. The first job that I got was trying to look for an electro-potentiometric determination of uranium in feedstock, and most of the information that I needed was in German. But fortunately Battelle had translators that were able to get the information. So, I felt quite at home, being able to get involved and just completely dive into the work. My wife later went to work and worked with the Department of Corrections. In fact, at one time she was a psychiatric social worker on death row at Walla Walla. But— Franklin: Wow. Abercrombie: But these are all things that we had no vision of before we left. Franklin: These were opportunities that weren’t present for you in the South, or likely not present for you. Abercrombie: Likely, very likely not present, yes. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Abercrombie: One of the things that I did was played flag football. We had a local team that played for many years together. And I guess I did a little bit of hunting, a little bit of fishing. Other than that, it was—I didn’t get into motorcycle riding until 1973. At this point, I’ve probably got about 300,000 miles riding around the Northwest on motorcycle. I tell people that because doing labor relations, I would occasionally jump in with the train crew, because I wanted to find out what the various jobs were about. So I tell people that I’ve driven a train and flown a plane. Because when my son was at West Point and called home one Wednesday and said he was going to jump school, I said, that’s great, but you won’t jump before I will. I think I did my first jump that Saturday. Not bad for a guy that’s afraid of heights, but—went ahead and did that. Motorcycle riding, another place that I goofed up, because I thought that would be a great weight loss program, because I figured that I’d travel around and wouldn’t be welcomed at any place to eat, so I’d get out there and go days without eating or something. But that turned out not to be the case, so— Franklin: [LAUGHTER] When you moved here, the largest amount of African Americans lived in east Pasco. Abercrombie: Yeah. Franklin: Did you spend any time in east Pasco? Did you have any connections— Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: --to the African American community? How did you forge those connections? Abercrombie: Well, for one thing, you need to go to a barber. Well, I was not—I didn’t know that anybody could cut my hair that was not familiar with it, so you’re going over there. You meet people. I find that in many places that you go, the migration of blacks has been people that know each other that go somewhere and get something started. For example, I had a friend that was here that moved to Los Angeles. I rode the motorcycle down to Los Angeles, and while I was there, we went around and met people. Well, he’s from Texas. So he can tell you just about everybody from Texas that’s there. And if you read The Warmth of Other Suns, you’ll see how some of this migration took place. My uncles from Union, South Carolina went to Aliquippa, Pennsylvania. And so people from Union had a tendency to go there because they knew somebody there. I look at it now, and I look at the fact that my roommate came here and I ended up coming as well. Because I had no idea that this place existed, had no idea what it might be like. That was not on my radar when I started looking for jobs, because I looked for jobs in the neighborhood and in the area that I was in and areas that I had been exposed to. So it was very limited. In fact, the choice of chemistry versus chemical engineering came down to the fact that I really was not aware that there were chemical engineers. So in many cases you’re limited by what is around you. I had seen the opportunities because my best friend was one house away. His father was a doctor. He had a very nice home, but he could not build it anywhere except in our neighborhood. Because nobody would have, one, sold him the land; there were a lot of restrictions on who you could sell land to, even if you had the money. And so, the community that I came from was pretty much self-contained. My father was a teacher, taught for 42 years in the Spartanburg School District. My mother taught for ten years before she opened a restaurant. So I was around a lot of teachers and that type. But I was around everybody, because when she opened a restaurant, everybody came there. So, that’s kind of the atmosphere that I was raised in. When she started the restaurant, people had said, it’s not going to be successful because you don’t sell beer. She had her mindset, and that wasn’t what she was going to do, so, you know, it was a pretty healthy atmosphere to grow up in. And when I had children, I think that it was a very good atmosphere for the children. The school districts were very good and we didn’t have—there were problems here, but I didn’t have to face them every day. Franklin: What sorts of problems? Abercrombie: Typical problems. It may be difficult to kind of explain. But the first time my daughter, that I knew of my daughter being called out of her name was here in Richland. It was one of our neighbors. When I went to work in the laboratory—I’m not trying to be funny, but I had people say, you’re not like the rest of them. Rest of “them”? Who is “them”? So I asked, and they said, well, you know—and they didn’t know how to say black, colored, negro, whatever. So they would almost choke to death trying to tell me that I wasn’t like most black people. And I’d say, well, who do you know? Well, I really don’t know anybody. So it became apparent that they were getting their information from stories, second-hand, third-hand, the stereotypes that you saw in the movies, that you saw on TV, and whatever. So as you’re going into a situation like this, you’re coming in to be a professional, but you have people that believe that you’re not. So you’re having to overcome stereotypes. And that’s happening in many, many places. When I worked in equal employment opportunity, for example, would have people that wanted to terminate somebody because of attendance. And I would look at the unit and see what’s there, and find out that they had people that had worse attendance than the person that they wanted to fire. So, as you’re talking to them, well, that’s so-and-so’s nephew. What’s that got to do with anything? But you have attitudes that develop. When I was in that particular aspect, we had a guy that was a janitor, wanted to become a chemical operator. And so they went on a stereotype. Well, he’s so big that he can’t get his hands together. Well, the guy was mopping, and he’s strong enough, he could just sling the mop around and do it with one hand. They thought I was out of town and they were going to give him a test. They put him in two pair of coveralls, put him in boots and rubber gloves, and wanted him to go up some 20, 30 feet on a ladder. And if you think that it’s unsafe, why would you do that? They didn’t require that with anybody else. So you’re finding that a lot of attitudes that people have are preconceived and the South has no handle on discrimination. But a lot of the people came up here. In fact, I was talking to an individual Sunday who came here in ’41. And I asked him specifically because I’ve heard of Kennewick being a sundown city. A sundown city is a city in which black people are supposed to get the heck out of town before the sun goes down. I’ve heard a lot of information of people that say yes, and he confirmed this. I’ve heard at one time there was signs that basically stated this, but I’ve not found anybody that has specifically seen those signs. I know, as of later research, that Oregon was established as a white state, and at one time, it was against the law and you could be beaten for being in Oregon if you were not one of the people grandfathered in—which is another racist situation—at sunset. So a lot of these things I only found out later that existed. So. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events? In the African American community? Abercrombie: Particular events. I will tell you the first time I heard about Juneteenth. Because there are a lot of people that came up from Texas. In South Carolina, I knew absolutely nothing about Juneteenth. When I first heard about Juneteenth, I was somewhat taken back, somewhat offended, because a couple of things that happened as you’re growing up. You never hear anything about the accomplishments of black people. It’s very limited. And normally that’s reserved for talking about George Washington Carver and a few other people. But most people have no idea of the accomplishments of George Washington Carver. They associate him with the peanut. The way that he got associated with the peanut is a story in and of itself. But what he did, in terms of a scientist—in fact, when George Washington Carver first went to college, he went to Highland College and was accepted on the basis of his work in high school. But when he got there—and he had saved money and was able to take care of himself financially—when he got there, they said, oh, we didn’t know that you were black. Bye. So he was distraught over this. He went to work. He was always a worker. And he worked for some people who encouraged him to go back. George Washington Carver then goes back to Simpson College, and at Simpson, most people have no idea what he was majoring in. But George Washington Carver majored in art and piano, and was very talented at both. But one of his instructors, Etta Budd, said, George, we really don’t think that a black man can earn a living in art and piano. And her husband was at Iowa State University, encouraged him to go there and work in botany. He worked with some of the great soil scientists of the era. In fact, one of his classmates became the secretary of agriculture in one of the administrations. But they don’t talk about the fact that he had very strong friendships with Thomas Edison, with Henry Ford. In fact, when he was at Tuskegee and had trouble getting to his laboratory on the second floor, Ford sent engineers down and said you put in an elevator for him. Very close relationship. When, during the war, World War II, when metal was in short supply, he worked with Ford and they developed a plastic body for a car. Ford demonstrates it by hitting it with a sledge hammer and not damaging that car body. When rubber was in short supply, he made synthetic rubber. When we were having difficulty dying our clothes and dying a lot of other things because we used aniline, which came from Germany—we’re at war with Germany—we couldn’t even dye our uniforms. So he went up, and as a young aspiring artist, he had to develop his own pigments, he had to develop dyes. He knew how to do this and he came up with a full—excuse me—palette of colors to do this. And we think all this man did was made peanut butter? You know, an elephant stepping on a peanut makes peanut butter. This man was a chemist. He was a scientist. He did many, many things. In addition to the peanut, he worked with soybeans, he worked with sweet potatoes, he worked with lots of other things. And part of his demise was due to the fact that when he was traveling and speaking he could not get a sleeper car because of his color of his skin. And I’m sure that added to the difficulty that he had in getting around. But we don’t make mention of many of the contributions he’s made, and he is by far not the only person that’s made significant contributions to this society. Franklin: Did you attend church? Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: What church did you attend? Abercrombie: Still attending. I was there Sunday. Actually, Richland Baptist Church on G-W Way. Which is right down the street. Now, when I came to Richland, it was my intent that I was going to live fairly close to work and I would be involved in the community that I was there. It was quite a while before I fully understood everything that was available in east Pasco. Probably would have attended the church there, but I made a decision on this one earlier. The people were friendly enough, and so my wife and I joined-- Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: --that church. I think we joined in 1968. So I guess technically we’ve been members for 50 years. Franklin: Wow. Do you recall any family activities, events or traditions, including sports and food, that African Americans brought from the places that they came from? Abercrombie: Again, I’ll go back to east Pasco. There was Jack’s Tavern, and there was the Paradise Inn, which I think Joe Jackson and Webster Jackson had started. I remember buffalo fish, which I had not eaten, you know, prior to coming out here. Franklin: Buffalo fish? Abercrombie: Yeah. I think it’s a member of the carp family; in fact, it used to get flown in, and they used to, you know, they used to have that. As you develop friendships, you share food, break bread with people. I used to have a fairly good-sized New Year’s Eve party. I’d go through quite a few chitlins and hog maws and stuff of that nature, which is some of the things we were grown up with. You soon start looking at markets. You find that people have a tendency to congregate around things that they are familiar with. Race just being one of those things. Because, as a motorcycle rider, I found that there were a number of people that rode who were professional people, and we had similarities there. Same brand of motorcycle would sometimes be in this corner, professions would be over here. But when race is involved, it makes things stand out, and sometimes when you don’t know, and you’re walking into a strange situation, that may be the thing that makes the attraction. So, yeah, we went through those situations. I found that as a motorcycle rider—I was a member of Hill & Gully Motorcycle Club, it was an American Motorcycle Association, and we traveled around to different places. So, there were dentists, there were lawyers, there were whatever. I had a tendency to spend more time with them than I did some of the railroad workers or some of the other things. Although, because of the width and breadth of the knowledge that I picked up here, I was able to fit in there as well. Franklin: Were there—we already kind of talked about this, but I just wanted to ask this direct question, these next two questions. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you came from? Abercrombie: I’d have to say yes. Because there were very, very limited opportunities there. I’ve seen people that had great skills. And one of my passions at this point is trying to let people know that they have passions and talents beyond that which they have seen. Some of the best students that I attended high school and college with did not have opportunities to utilize those skills. If you look at, I believe the book is The First Class which talks about the Dunbar High School—or the Dunbar School in Washington, DC, a lot of very famous people came through Dunbar. But in some cases, you found that there were PhDs that were teaching elementary school, not because that’s what they aspired to do, but in many cases that’s what they were limited to do. I think one of the reasons is that we have a disparity in education is because of the fact that people have gone to school, they have exceled at school, but when they went to look for opportunities to show or display their skills, they never had a chance. They never got into the batter’s box. They didn’t have a chance to swing for the fences. Because it was not there. And that has impacted this country for decades, and actually centuries. Because when we look back at some of the earlier accomplishments that people have made, you know, it’s astounding. I think we get into a standoff position, because I think many white people feel that we hold every one of them responsible for slavery. Most people did not own slaves. And we also find that there are black people that owned slaves. William Ellison in South Carolina had over 60 slaves. He was a gin maker and gin repairman. And it’s an interesting story what happened to him after the—during and after the Civil War. Because he supplied goods as a businessperson to the Confederacy and after the Confederacy when the economy was starting to go again, they actually passed laws that prevented black people from competing against white people in terms of even seeking business. And so we get into the situation that the remnants of which still hang with us today. And so, people move around, attitudes go, and a lot of the attitudes people have, they don’t even know where they came from. It’s what you were born with, what you were raised with, what you were—what you saw. And as I saw here, people had pre-established concepts of what they were going to get based on, not fact, but what they perceived to be. If you ever look at the story of Clara Brown—and I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at Clara Brown; this is probably beyond the scope of what we’re talking about here—but Clara Brown was born a slave in Virginia. Her mother and she were sold to a different owner in Kentucky, and that’s where George Brown comes into the fact. She worked for the Brown family for 20 years. During that time, she was allowed to marry. She had four children. When George Brown died, that family was split apart, sold to different parts of the country. Her husband went one way, her son went one way. She had three daughters: an older daughter and twin daughters. Of the twins, one of them were drowned in a flood, and the remaining twin was—had a lot of nightmares about that situation. Clara Brown got her freedom at the age of 56. Most people are not aware that in most states, when you got your freedom, you had one year to get out of the state or you could be re-enslaved. Clara Brown went to St. Louis. Clara Brown worked. She heard that people were going to the West and being able to enjoy their freedoms. And so Clara Brown earned enough money to pay passage to Denver, Colorado. However, she could not take a stagecoach, because the stagecoaches would not sell a black person a ticket there. So she found a wagon train headed that way. Now, she’s almost 60 years old at this point. She walked, but she booked on to cook. So she had to get up early and do breakfast, stay up late to do dinner. But she walked 700 miles in eight weeks. After she got there, she set herself up in a laundry business. Ten years later, she has $10,000 in the bank, and this is in the 1880s, 1890s. Clara Brown, to her credit, was known as the Angel of the Rockies. There are at least three churches now that owe their existence to the fact that she contributed financially. There was a Catholic and two Methodist churches. She was Presbyterian, but she helped a lot of people along the way. What happened is that many people based slavery on the fact that black people could not feel pain. So if you look at James Marion Sims in Medical Apartheid, you’ll see some of the horrible, horrific things that he did there. And also said that black people don’t grieve, so you can sell the people around. I’ll speed this thing up, and we can get back on track. But anyway, she goes and finds that her daughter is still alive, and her daughter is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. She didn’t find her until 80 years of age. Franklin: Wow. Abercrombie: But that puts a hole in much of what the people that believed in slavery—because they said we don’t feel pain, we don’t have emotion, we don’t have the ability to do it. But so many things have happened in this country that have been based strictly on the perceived concept. So, I’ll get back on track. Franklin: Okay. That was a great story, though, thank you. In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Abercrombie: As I indicated before, when we looked at people—I was here when we wanted to institute an apprenticeship program, bring people of color and women into some of the skilled crafts. Many of the—and I’ve had more than one person tell me that the next job that comes up belongs to my son, my nephew, my whoever. In other words, these people owned the job. Many of the super—in fact, most of the supervisors and foremen came from the ranks, and they brought those attitudes with them. So we did not open opportunities, even in the skilled crafts, and in many cases, even entry level opportunities to bring people in and allow them to perform to their level, because they had a lot to bring with them. We look at people quite a bit different, because even in the schools, in the early grades, this particular mannerism is cute, but in girls and in minorities, you know, third, fourth grade, it becomes something of a distraction, it’s disruptive, it’s something else. The same attitude in a white male would be accepted as leadership, moving ahead. And so we face many of those problems here. Because we are people, and that exists. In terms of professional positions, the same thing manifests itself. We don’t have an opportunity to put input into the system and to show what we can do, show what other people can do, and open opportunities to people. So we got to a position where we had to have Affirmative Action because people were not given the opportunities; not because they could not perform, but—and the school system itself created a lot of the system. The school systems, not necessarily here, but all over the country. Franklin: Right. You mentioned that when you first came to Hanford, you went out to work at PUREX? Abercrombie: Yes. Franklin: Right, and how long did you work there for? Abercrombie: I came in as a tech grad and so I worked there for four months; I went to Z Plant, which was 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Laboratory, worked there for four months; and then I went to REDOX, worked in the Standards Lab for four months. At that point I then had a permanent assignment, went back to PUREX and was there for a couple of years before I had the opportunity to go as a shift supervisor, and worked there for a couple of years, and went into the EEO and human resources and other activities. Franklin: What on-the-job training did you receive? Abercrombie: Well, the technical graduate program basically was an on-the-job type training. We had people that we could work with in all of those positions. So, it’s kind of like getting used to the work that’s in the various laboratories. You had a chance of sitting down, talking to people about various openings that were available there. So you had kind of an idea of what was available and the ability to match that with what you wanted to do. While I was working at the electro-potentiometric determinations of uranium at PUREX, there were other things that I could have done. When I went to 234-5, it was emission spectroscopy, and we were looking at the impurity elements in plutonium product. Completely new field for me. At REDOX, I worked in the Standards Laboratory and got to see a different view of everything. When I went back to PUREX, I worked in quality control and quality assurance. Wrote the quality control and assurance plan for uranium, plutonium, neptunium for the entire plant, before moving into the human resource area. So, that was how some of that worked. My classmate that had come out had worked in the counting room, and was able to work with the early computers. He worked in safety for a while. So we had a chance to look at a few different things there. So if that’s answering the question you asked. Franklin: Yes, yes, thank you. How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors? Abercrombie: I would have to say that it was better than I expected, because I had preconceived notions as well. And I found that in many cases, I got help from people that I never expected to ever get it from. I think part of it was the fact that you were able to kind of relax around some of these people, that you were able—some of these people. As if there’s a difference and a distinction in them. So we were able, because it was fairly small laboratories, fairly small work groups that you could kind of fit in and kind of work with people. And I think people were willing to help people that were willing to expend the time and energy to try to excel at what they were doing. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? Abercrombie: By and large, I would say that it was pretty good. I would not say that it’s perfect, but I don’t know any place that would be. I think the opportunities that came along were good. I think it could’ve been better. But I can’t really compare it to anything, because most of my experience was here. Except for the fact that I did work with the City of Richland with the Human Rights Commission and for a time was chairman of that particular commission. I worked with the Benton County Sheriff’s office as a reserve, and got into that as a result of my labor relations experience, because I did have the Hanford Guards and wanted to find out what they did. So I went out and qualified with them, and spent a weekend in class and did the day and night qualifications with them. Benton County said, if we send you to the academy, will you go? Well, I wanted to find out what that was all about, and, yes. And that was one of the most frightening experiences of my life. Because in the South, where I came from, when police came into your neighborhood, somebody was going to bleed. Man, woman, or child, somebody was going to bleed. So I got commissioned as a deputy with Benton County, I did not want to go in with the intent of beating anybody; I didn’t want to go in with the type of thing that I had seen growing up. So that was an extremely frightening experience for me. But I think I worked with a good group of people, and had my eyes opened, and I think I opened some of theirs as well. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Abercrombie: I think most of my activities outside of work did not involve coworkers. We had some, we had limited. I didn’t go out and do a lot of things. Like I said, an occasional fishing trip, occasional hunting, and motorcycle. Motorcycle I could do with a group or I could do by myself. Franklin: Yeah. Abercrombie: So. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Abercrombie: I think it was the idea of competing against people that had gone to named universities and thinking—and really not knowing what to expect. Because like you say—not, like I’ve said before, but when you are given hand-me-down books, which is what we got in our school system—when you see that there is some reason that you can’t go to that school, or you don’t have that opportunity—now, I had a chance, when I worked as a bricklayer to work in all the schools there, because I worked for the school district during part of the year, because my dad was in the industrial arts. The glass brick that they had in schools, when they broke, I was the one that went in and repaired them. So I saw the difference in the equipment of what they had versus what we had. My high school, maybe had one reel-to-reel tape recorder and a broken-down film projector. And I could go there and see that they had full language labs, and they had individual headsets, and they had equipment that I absolutely knew—did not have access to. Textiles, which were big there, they had classes in loom repair. One of the better jobs there. I worked as a weaver in college, and was a weaver, and was selected to go into the mechanical side of things there before I decided—well, it wasn’t really a decision, because I was coming out here or going to do the bricklaying in the first place. But I think that sets the tone for a lot of things in your life, and you begin to wonder: can I compete? And that does a lot to affect where you end up. Franklin: What were conditions like in terms of health and safety? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] Having just read Plutonium Files, I think that a lot of the information we were given, I question. I don’t think that they knew exact information as much as they let on to us believing that they knew. I think in some cases we were kind of used as guinea pigs. One of the things that I have found is that I was exposed to beryllium when I worked at Plutonium Finishing Lab. That has caused me a lot of problems. In fact, during the ‘90s, the mid- to late-‘90s, I was diagnosed with bronchoalveolar carcinoma and told that I had six to ten months to live. And it turned out that it was similar to sarcoidosis, but actually it was the beryllium sensitivity and beryllium disease. They did a lavage and took lung tissue and that’s when they had come up with this prognosis that I had six to ten months to live. But when you look at the whole body count, when you start looking at some of what we were exposed to, I think in some cases the decisions were made on a financial basis as opposed to a security basis. When we look at what we’re doing now and what we have left over as remnants in terms of the Tank Farms, in terms of the waste, in terms of many of the aspects that are giving us headaches at this point, I think they knew, but didn’t want to act on it. And it was strictly a financial situation as opposed to a long term safety situation. And I think some people were guinea pigs. My classmate has probably been dead ten years, and I’m not sure that Hanford didn’t contribute very highly in that particular situation. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Abercrombie: Well, no matter where you go, you take them with you. You take your preconceived ideas and you run into people that have preconceived ideas. I’m not sure that Hanford necessarily would’ve been any different than anywhere else, because I did not work anywhere else. But you run into the situation where people have the preconceived idea that, for whatever reason, you maybe can’t do this, maybe you shouldn’t do that. Hopefully things are a lot better. When I left Hanford, I did not leave feeling that I had been treated fairly in the end. Very much to the contrary. So. Overall, I think that it was good life experience. But there are certainly a lot of things, I think, that could’ve been significantly different. Franklin: I understand. In what ways did the security and secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Abercrombie: It had some impact, because some of the work required a Q clearance, the top clearance. I had less impact than most people, because my clearance got here just before I did. So I did not have a limited clearance. I had access to secret information when I got here. Some people were impacted, because there were certain jobs that they could not take, or did not have the opportunity to do, because it did involve some secret information. So I think it had less an impact on me than it did on some of the other people, if that’s the question that you’re asking. Certainly, it was a different atmosphere. But having been an only child and not being prone to be around and talking to a lot of people about a lot of different stuff, it probably had less impact on me than it did most people. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] As far as Hanford itself is concerned, I’m still trying to explore that. I’ll tell you with some degree of embarrassment, I just recently found out about the 555th, which was the first group of African American paratroopers in the country. They had trained, I believe, at Fort Benning, Georgia. At that time, blacks were not allowed to be paratroopers, because the Army was strictly segregated. But what happened is that they were camped right next to the training for the paratroopers. They said, we can do that! So when they were done for the day, they would go over and go through all of the exercises, all the maneuvers that they had seen being done throughout the day. And they excelled at that to the point that one of the higher officers saw that and said, maybe we need to make a unit out of these guys. Well, what does that have to do with me out here? Well, during World War II, the Japanese were floating incendiary devices across the oceans in balloons and setting large fires. We didn’t want the Japanese to know that they were even being successful. So who do we send in? The 555th. They were stationed at Pendleton, and they made many jumps into the Pacific Northwest. One of those devices even landed at Hanford. Not being aware of the fact that we had done much beyond George Washington Carver, I didn’t spend a lot of time studying and looking into it, until fairly recently. It’s kind of interesting how I got involved in black history at all, but, like I may have indicated Sunday, I was asking the gentleman that was here in ’41 or ’42 about Kennewick being a sundown city. And he said, yes. But he had not seen the sign. So whether it actually—whether there were actually signs or whether it was just known that such was the case in Kennewick—and I talked to a person that lived in Pasco. They made sure that they were out of Kennewick. So it affected a lot of people. When I came here and was looking at houses, people had told me, don’t go to Kennewick. So some of those stories, whether they were fables or not, did have an impact. So yeah. Franklin: How did you feel at the time about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Abercrombie: Repeat the question, please. Franklin: How did you feel at the time about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Abercrombie: I felt better then than I do now. I didn’t know a lot about nuclear weapons. But the fact that supposedly we had shortened the war with the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I thought they were peaceful—or that it would serve a useful purpose. They were talking about plough sharing and being able to do other things with the energy, you know, making tunnels or canals or digging things. And I didn’t understand, at that point, some of the long term effects that radiation could have. I think that in many cases, we moved strictly on the basis of finances as opposed to what could be done safely. I think that we were operating and putting waste into the ground with the idea that it’d be okay for eternity. And I think that had we taken seriously the concept that we need to take this from—no pun intended—from birth to the grave or birth to eternity in the beginning, I think that it would’ve been a lot sounder situation to get into. When I go and when I look at material like we find in Plutonium Files, they were doing experiments on people that I don’t think were necessarily ethical. I’m not sure that we weren’t in such a position there, because I think most of our difficulties came out when it became known to some people that the beryllium had manifested itself that I had been exposed to earlier. I think that it was a bit naïve on my part in the beginning. I think I would feel differently now. I think that it is a situation that could be controlled and should’ve been controlled earlier in the game. So I think I felt better at that time, because I did not know some of the consequences of what I was doing, as opposed to now. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Abercrombie: [SIGH] Tough question. And I think that for many of the questions that we have looked at. But I think that the long-range prognosis of what we’ve done is that we have been short-sighted, not only at Hanford, but in the way that we have handled the earth, that we’ve handled the environment. And we normally look at what is happening immediately; we don’t look at what can happen five years, 500 years, 5,000 years down the road from what we’re doing. I think we have to be concerned about it, not only with the nuclear energy—because I think nuclear energy can be done safely—but when we look at situations such as plastics. We’re having tons and tons of it wash up on shores of various places, we have large masses in the middle of our oceans, we’re putting it into our food system, that we need to be more cognizant of some of the things that we’re doing. In terms of Hanford, we have to look at the migration of isotopes towards our rivers and things of that nature. So I guess, that’s what I have to look at in terms of our legacy. I don’t think that we’ve handled it in the very best way. But I think we have to take today and do the best that we can for the future, or else we won’t have a future. In a way. If that answers your question. Franklin: It does. Thank you. Switching to civil rights, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Abercrombie: Major problem here, as everywhere—because this is not the only place in which the condition existed—goes back to the fact that I don’t think that people have been woven into the fabric of this country as they should have been. When we start looking at minorities, when we start looking at women, when we start looking at anybody that is not the majority, or is not accepted, or is not blessed by the majority, and leave them out, we leave the best of some people untapped. You know, I look back at the American Revolutionary War, and I look at Sybil Ludington, 16-year-old girl that rode the same night as Paul Revere. We don’t see the fact that that is a part of our history, that is a part of the fabric of us. So sometimes we leave people—significant groups of people—out of the equation, that in order to make this a better country, this a better world, we need to take the best of everybody. Now, when I came here, like I said, or like we’ve talked about, many people were isolated into the area of east Pasco. Many people were not given the opportunity to work jobs that they were capable of performing. When you hold somebody down, you hold the progress of the entire group down. And I’m not talking about the racial group; I’m talking about everybody. When we look at Charles Drew, for example, who developed the blood bank, and under the auspices of the American Red Cross. He left because they wanted him to spend his time creating two different blood banks: one for black, one for white. He said, no, that’s not going to happen. When we look at the developments that people can make, I think that we need to be working on the development of everybody, and pull this thing together. The fact that we even have to have black history is because we have not woven those accomplishments into the fabric that is this nation, that is this country, that is this world. We look at Canada, for example, and not realize the number of people that have escaped slavery going up there. We don’t even acknowledge the brutality of slavery. We don’t acknowledge the contributions that people have made otherwise. Now we’re having—and I finally get this—Viola Desmond, for example, is on the Canadian ten-dollar bank note. She was arrested because she went to the movie and sat in a white seat, and they got her on taxes. Because the different in tax on the seat where she would seat and the one reserved for the whites was one penny. She was fined $26 and jail, I believe. They made some acknowledgement of that. But I think we need to include all people fairly in the distribution of what’s accomplished. We have a school-to-prison pipeline where we’re making money off the fact of people being imprisoned. It costs way more money to keep a person in prison than it does to education them. When you educate a person, you eliminate much of what we have. We have people that are crying out and resorting to violent behavior, resorting to criminal behavior, because there is no opportunity for them. And I think that’s one of the things that we absolutely need to do. We don’t have a discussion in this country of one of the most difficult subjects that there is to broach, and that keeps that divide there. We need to look at Germany and what they have done in terms of the treatment of the Holocaust and their contribution to it. I think there are lessons to be learned there. We are not the know-it-all of everything. And there are lessons to be learned. And unless we learn from those lessons, we’re not making progress. Franklin: What actions were being taken here to address the issues that you brought up? Abercrombie: Very difficult question for me to answer, because I don’t spend a great deal of time here anymore. I spend time between here and South Carolina. My contribution has been the fact that I have been trying to bring some of the items that have been left untouched together. I have a website, Amazing Black History, where I’m putting together a lot of information on contributions that have been made by blacks, and the purpose for that is not to elevate anybody, but to show people what’s there. It’s not to isolate anybody, because the stories that are on that site are intended to inspire everybody, whether they are male, female, black, white or any other nationality. It’s intended to get people to understand the impact that a person can have, the abilities that a person has, so much so that I’m doing that. That’s part of the dedication. I’m using that as examples; my primary intent is to motivate and inspire people to become the best that they can be. Franklin: You mentioned earlier that you were on the Richland Human Rights Commission. Abercrombie: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Right? As the chair. What types of problems were visible to you as on the Human Rights Commission? How did the commission try to tackle those issues? Abercrombie: It’s difficult for a city to run a function like that, because of limited resources. It was an all-volunteer group. I think we went through a couple of cases. But as you have a state commission, I think they’re able to function better. A federal commission, I think should be able to function even better. It was limited. But we looked at what was occurring. And I think most of the problems on whatever level come from a lack of knowledge of what people can do, and we take the preconceived notions and say the people cannot do this, they cannot do that, they don’t have the opportunities to do that. When I was working as a bricklayer, we had a church, and we did the brickwork on it. But the church members volunteered and helped to save money, and one of the people that we had was a woman who was an ex-school teacher. I don’t know if you’ve ever lifted a 12-inch concrete block, but I have seen that woman take those things that probably weigh 70 to 80 pounds, one in each hand, and throw them up on the scaffold. That’s an individual. There are men that cannot do that. But we go around with the perceived perception of what people can do based on our mind and not the person. And I think it’s been very detrimental to minorities; I think it’s been very detrimental to women. I think it’s even been detrimental to men, because some of them probably have been pushed into areas that they would be less comfortable in, only because of somebody else’s preconceived notion. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Abercrombie: Not directly. You mean, in terms of protest, or--? Franklin: Yeah, I mean any kind of protest, lobbying, you know, sign making, efforts in the human rights council? Abercrombie: Not directly. Now, we were involved in a group that existed late ‘60s, early ‘70s called BEAT, B-E-A-T, Black Expressions of Art in the Tri-Cities. We were attempting to make known what we could do. One of the activities that we had is we had Alex Haley come to town, and this is before Roots was written. He spent the day at my house, we talked with him extensively about what he had done, what he was working on at the time. He was working on Roots. I thought it was going to be about his research, and was tremendously excited about it, although when I got the book and read it, I was very excited about it as well. So we were—Tony Brown, we brought here. Most of the actions that I took were of the, hopefully, enlightening aspect of it, as opposed to those people that were doing the actually on the ground. I admired the. From the way that I’d come up, I didn’t really get involved in that. Looking back, I probably wish that I had. Franklin: But you were focused on—your activity in BEAT was focused on kind of bringing influential people to kind of show—just to enlighten people about black culture and art and things like that. Kind of—influence people or just to share that knowledge? Abercrombie: Yeah, I think it was more of an educational thing, because I had this preconceived notion that if you know me, you’ll like me. You won’t hate me. And I’m not talking about me myself, but I’m talking about the fact that—and one of the things that really, really upset me that I really didn’t understand— [PHONE RINGING] Abercrombie: Is that the end of our time? One of the things that I really didn’t understand is how a Christian could look at a black person the way that they were doing. When you look at the fact that there have been over 4,000 people of color hung in this country and they were hung by basically Christian people—are there two Gods? Why don’t we get some respect? Why does this situation exist? So, some of those situations really, really disturb me. Why do we have to have two educational systems? Wouldn’t it be more effective if we had one? At that time, it was not pushing for integration as much as it was for desegregation. I think we get into a situation where those two ideas and concepts got muddled. I think that in terms of bang for the buck, I think the black schools gave it, because there were dedicated teachers that were there. As I saw integration taking place, in my wife’s home town for example, when the school that she attended, the high school that she attended was integrated, the white teachers came up there with dumpsters. They threw away trophies, they threw away records, they threw away all sorts of things because it did not mean anything to them. So we approached integration, which I think is one of the biggest failed experiments that I can ever think of, because we went in with one group thinking they were vastly superior, another group thinking that they were for whatever reason inferior—although we had so many examples of people that did not fit into that category—that we’ve done ourselves a great injustice by the way that we went about this. We had people that felt that they were being forced into something. We didn’t pre-sell it. We just forced it on. This is the way this is going to be and that’s it. I think that we have made—and I think it’s good that we have gotten rid of many of the barriers. But I think a lot of them still exist, and a lot of them exist because we don’t understand, and because we fail to discuss. We have never really had a solid discussion in this country on race, and I think that many people are afraid of it. I just think that at some point in time, we’re going to have to have that discussion. Franklin: Agreed. I like your point that—or at least I think the point you were making—that desegregation and integration aren’t the same thing, in that integration doesn’t—I think we thought integration would follow desegregation, but in a lot of communities over time, it just became segregated in a different way. Like with white flight or with—once busing was over—now our schools are more segregated than they were in 1960, because of the ways that neighborhoods or people have formed neighborhoods, and largely choose to live in certain areas over others. And we’re— Abercrombie: Well, I think it’s more being forced into neighborhoods than others. Because we didn’t look at the fore-ranging impact of what that would happen. Let’s take my neighbor that I spoke of whose father was a doctor. He couldn’t move into a neighborhood that was comparable with his income level. Therefore, he didn’t get to go to the school that got all of the funding. And as a result, he’s impacted. They are also impacted, because they don’t get a chance to take advantage of what he could contribute, or what I could contribute, or what anybody could contribute. And when you look at the color of law, and you look and see the depth to which this country has gone to maintain segregated communities, and when you look at how school districts are gerrymandered, when you look at how jobs then are created based on a lot of the factors that we try to keep out of our peripheral vision, you see why we’re in such bad shape. When we take our best students and give them everything that they have, everything that they need to excel, I think it’s great. And we need to do that regardless of color, race, religion or any other factor. And when we have students that learn by different methods—some people by example or whatever—we need to look more at how to get the best out of everybody. Franklin: Coming back to your life, when did your work at Hanford come to an end, and what did you do afterwards? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] It’s kind of interesting, like I said. I think the treatment that I received my last days of work at Hanford were not the way that I would treat a dog. I think that I was treated very unfairly. I think there were a couple of people that did some things specifically that were not in my best interest. About the time that I left Hanford is about the time that I got the diagnosis that I had six to ten months to live. It’s sometimes kind of difficult to think that those two are completely separated. I know when I was told the information about basically leaving Hanford, I made a comment at that time that scared me. And I would probably have done something that I would have regretted, but it was something that I had to leave alone or I think would’ve been consumed. So I’m at a point where I need to try to live out the six to ten months that I’d been given, make the best use of that time, as opposed to anything having to do with Hanford. So it was a difficult crossroad in my life at that time that came there. Franklin: When was this? Abercrombie: This was in the middle- to late-‘90s. Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: As a result of having worked with people and seeing so many people that have been passed up and so many people that have gotten a false impression of what they can and can’t do, that right now my passion is letting people know that they themselves have capabilities. And I’m using a lot of the examples that I’m finding out that I’m talking about with you to show just that. And I think that there are lessons there that can help motivate and inspire all people. Because once you see what the lowest of these have done, then you see what you are capable of doing. And I’d like to work with those people towards those ends. So my ultimate goal is to do just that. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Abercrombie: Hmm. [LAUGHTER] Well, there are some positive things there. Community can come together. Richland had come together in support of a particular cause, whether that cause is right, wrong or indifferent. I think that that is a life lesson there: that you can pull together. Hopefully you have the right direction, hopefully you have the foresight, and hopefully all of those are good. I think that is part of the legacy that should be this nation’s motto, that no matter where we are and no matter what we do, that we can work together, that we can pull for good. I think we need to be a little more foresighted in much of what we do, because we tend to be shortsighted on what is going to make a dollar today, which may cost us five dollars to clean up tomorrow. And I think that we need to realize that it’s individuals that make this country, and not necessarily the groups that make this country. And so that we all need to work towards that end. Maximize all of the resources, all of the talent, all of the people that we have, and not waste our time on trying to denigrate or minimize any person. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Abercrombie: Overall in my life, it’s been the fact that I’ve been exposed to experiences that I never would had I remained a bricklayer. [LAUGHTER] And hopefully other people will have found the same. I guess the one thing that I’m thinking now, hopefully it will go along with the idea and the concepts of what you’re talking about—is I look at the article that I just did on Clara Brown where she had one year to decide to—or to move out of the state or be re-enslaved. Sometimes, we think that we don’t have to make a decision and not realize that not making the decision is actually making a decision. Sometimes it is accepting of a situation that we really don’t want. We need to be objective in what we look at and how we look at it and the consequences of it. We need to train ourselves in school and we need to train ourselves in life that we need to be willing to make decisions. We need to be willing to speak out for what is right. We need to be able to do that in order to move the country forward, to move the world forward. We cannot be so nearsighted that we don’t see beyond our own noses. Franklin: Great. Well, John, thank you so much for coming and sharing your perspective and your research for your website, and weaving all that together for us. Abercrombie: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview PUREX 200-East Area 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Laboratory REDOX Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1967- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1967-1995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Abercrombie Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) School integration African American universities and colleges Affirmative action programs Migration Civil rights Race relations Racism Description An account of the resource John Abercrombie has lived in the Tri-Cities since 1967 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1967-1995. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc6a7e1f7db432308475f174aed93dc4f.jpg 272042587632c1efff00cc76b027a17f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff3f8245c6bccea0b3313f809d4f0d87c.mp4 f9183e12b58135e7ec45689068738d68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Decker Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Decker Description An account of the resource An interview with John Decker conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F585bac4d8c0e62c055afe36908c97ac0.jpg 640f44dfcdeb54e0558fb537b2670052 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3100a84e1dc7f96919968a2190dcef33.mp4 e61f73aaacc84188b5b707d8c12d6cdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fox, John Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Fox_John John. Fox: Go and see if I can find any of the documents that I had written that were once classified and are now declassified. Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Camera man: All right, I can adjust and play from here. Bauman: You good? Camera man: Yup. Bauman: All right. Camera man: I am. Bauman: Okay, we’ll go ahead and started then. Fox: Okay, fine. Bauman: So let's start by having you say your name. Fox: I'm John Fox. Bauman: Okay. And my name's Robert Bauman. Today is September 4th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start by, if you could, tell me about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you arrived. Fox: Ah, yes. It was 1951. I had just completed a master's degree in mechanical engineering at Oregon State College at that time. And so it was early in the Korean War period, and I had been commissioned to a lieutenant in The Corps of Engineers when I graduated from college. So I was eligible to be called up from the Reserves. And this was one place where I applied for a job that didn't have any problem with that situation because they could supersede it during the Cold War period. So I was offered a job here. And I came to work in April of 1951. I didn't have my Q clearance yet. So they put me on odd jobs downtown in what was in the 700 Area for about three months until I got a Q clearance. And then I was assigned on the rotational training program for engineers, which involved three month assignments in various components over a period of a year and a half or so to give a choice of where there was a best fit for a job. Bauman: What were your first impressions of the place when you arrived? Fox: Well I had been warned, because when I was in college in the late '40s, one of my fraternity brothers had been assigned up here in the Army as guarding the plant for the anti-aircraft installations and so on. And then when he was discharged, he came to school. And he kept complaining about this being the middle of nowhere and dusty and desert, nothing to do and so on. So I had a picture of what it was like. And I expected to work here for a couple of years and then go get a job in California where I really wanted to live. In my younger years, I had lived part time in San Francisco and gone to school there in both elementary school and for a short time in high school. In fact, I was there when the war broke out—World War II broke out. And that's why I moved back to Portland. And I knew it had been very mysterious during the war. And so I was sort of prepared for it. But did not ever expect to stay very long. Bauman: What sort of housing did you live in when you first arrived here? Fox: Well, it was very full when I arrived because they were expanding again. They were constructing new piles and a new separations plant. So the first few weeks I lived in the construction workers' barracks in North Richland, what is now right near Battelle Boulevard and George Washington Way. And took the bus. I was single; I was broke; I didn't own a car. [LAUGHTER] But there was bus transportation within the city, as well as out to the plant. So I took the bus down to town for my job in the 700 Area. And then an opening came up in the dormitory. They had dormitories for men and women at the time, although there were more men than women. So I was assigned then to W21, which was on the corner of Lee and Stevens where Albertson's parking lot presently is. And that was a very social dorm. It was mostly young engineers, some others. So I lived there until 1953, when the first privately built houses were added to the city, the Bauer Day houses in the south end of town and the Richland Village houses at George Washington Way and the McMurray area north to Sacagawea School. And that was when the three of us—Jerry, and Wayne and I—moved into a Bauer Day house. Bauman: And where was that house? Fox: It was 346 Cottonwood on the corner of Cottonwood and Boise. Bauman: So how would you describe Richland in the early 1950s, when you first arrived, as a community? Fletcher: Well, I would describe it sort of from the social standpoint. For us, it was rather an extension of college life, if you will. There was a number of bachelor engineers. There were a number of secretaries, school teachers, and so on. There was nothing to do here. You realize that in those days there was not liquor by the drink in the states of Oregon and Washington. The only place you could drink liquor was in private clubs like the American Legion, the Elks, and so on. So you needed to know somebody who could get you into those clubs. You could go in the liquor store and buy a bottle and go to one of those and get a set up. Restaurants could not serve liquor. Taverns were okay; you could drink beer, or—wine wasn't very popular in those days. They had a lot of rot gut wine--Thunderbird and so on. And then taverns, you could not stand up with a glass of beer in your hand. You had to be seated. And you could not sing. [LAUGHTER] Interesting regulations. That changed in just two or three years. I forget when the law changed on that and it opened up to liquor by the drink. But that was great for the restaurants, but it killed the clubs—the fraternal clubs—slowly. But anyway, you had to make your own entertainment. And when I arrived, there had been something called a dorm club that was a social group for the singles. And it was just in the process of morphing into the Desert Ski Club. And so for something to do in the winter, I took up skiing, which I never had learned to do. And so we went on ski trips on the weekends and so on. And that became a main social activity. Over a period of time, sort of two by two, people got married off and that dwindled away in the long run. But the interesting thing is the Desert Ski Club has stayed as an active institution. I've since attended the 50th anniversary of which Stein Eriksen was a very famous skier in the '50s came and attended our 50th anniversary of the club. As far as I know, they are still going and organizing ski trips. And that was the genesis of a lot of other organizations of various types. The Richland Players for plays. The Richland Light Opera for musical performances. The I-MAC Mountaineering Club and hiking club. The Rod and Gun Club. All sorts of different clubs were formed for that. Book clubs around the library and other things. Bauman: Were there any sort of larger community events that you can recall from that period, Atomic Frontier Days, anything along those lines? Fox: There was an Atomic Frontier Days, but I can't recall when that commenced or when it ended. It wasn't anything we did. The other thing besides skiing, though, was water-skiing was just coming into vogue there. And of course, the people in the ski club took that up in the summer. And another fellow and I went together on a boat and a wooden—flat bottom wooden boat that was built really for racing in the Sammamish River, [LAUGHTER] a very shallow river. So we took that up. I remember that a couple of times I put on a water-skiing exhibition of sorts. I remember going up to Moses Lake from here with a group to put on a show. We used to go out on the highlands in the Columbia River and stay out there and bake in the sun all day and even water-ski at night and what have you. So we had a lot of fun doing that. So it was make your own entertainment. Bauman: And you mentioned that you lived in the Bauer Day home on Cottonwood. And how long did you live there? Where did you move after that? Fox: Actually, we moved in there in 1953. One by one, we got married. There was a turnover in roommates. I was the last one there. I was married in 1959. But the town was sold to the residents in 1958 and 1959. And I bought that house, because I was engaged and was going to get married and sort of kicked my last roommate out in the summer of '59. But in 1958, I also went in with a group of people to purchase land north of Richland, because the town at that time ended at about Newcomer Street. There were few houses built north of there. And the tracts of land between there and here on the WSU campus, Sprout Road, were auctioned off in various size tracts. And so a group of six of us went together and we bid on two tracts of land along the river. And one of the girls that used to go water-skiing all the time, we used to go down to the island that's just south of the island that's in front of the campus here. She always said I want to have a house on the river by that long island because that's where the best water is for water-skiing. And she got me so interested in that that a group of us went together and bid on two tracts of land along here. And then the auction, the way it was set up, we were the successful bidder on one of those tracts, although we were the second high. But we were closer to the high bid on that tract than on the other one. So we got that one. And it happens to be the tract that adjoins the campus here. And I have the—we subdivided into seven lots and sold the one that's next to the campus. And I'm on the other end of it, the last one. So I'm the seventh house down the street from where we sit. Bauman: Oh, okay. [LAUGHTER] So let's talk a little bit more about that. In 1958, the shift from Richland being sort of federal town. Fox: Yes. Bauman: Did it seem to you at the time that most people were in support of that, something that the people of Richland really wanted to happen? Fox: Well actually, that was a second go around. There was an earlier proposal by the government—I forget in what year, but let's say a couple of years earlier around '56 or so—to sell the property. Because it was apparent by that time that they weren't going to one day shut the plant down and kick everybody out. People—married people wanted an opportunity to own their own houses. And they were beginning to move away from Richland to Kennewick mainly, but also a little bit into West Richland where they could buy property and own their own home. So the government came out with a preliminary proposal, and people thought the prices were too high, considering the uncertainty of the longevity of the town itself and the investment and the risk. So they retooled that over I guess a two-year period. You can check this out from the history. And came back with a second proposal, which gave the option of buying the house at, as I recall, a higher price, but with a guaranteed buy-back at that price, should the price go down. But I think only one or two people took that option. They took the lowest price. [LAUGHTER] As I recall, I paid $7,000 for the Bauer Day house in 1958 or '59, whenever that closed. Bauman: So let's talk about your work then in Hanford. You mentioned you did these sort of three month-- Fox: Yes. Bauman: --working at different places at the site. Fox: Yeah. Bauman: After that period, where did you work then? Fox: Well actually, I had a lot of other changes through the years. But after that period, my assignment was in what was called the irradiation testing group, which managed special tests of radiation of unusual things in the piles—I'll call them piles because that's what they were called at that time originally—that were not related to the production of plutonium process directly. They might have something to do with something that was related to improving the process, but often they were unrelated completely. A couple of examples that stand out in my mind, one was a submarine reactor control rod that was for the nuclear Navy program. Of course, before they had completed their test facility in Idaho Falls. And they wanted to get some data on the durability of the design of the rod. And so that had to be placed in vertically in one of the reactors. And it was in—what was then very new—C pile. And put in place of one of the vertical safety rods. And it was particularly interesting in that, after that test was finished—because it had some tubing that came up for the monitoring and measuring of it while it was in the pile—in extracting it, it got stuck coming out. And it resulted in the longer than planned shutdown of the reactor. [LAUGHTER] Which did not go well with the production quotas. So that was a difficult time, but it was probably the most interesting one. Another one involved C pile before it started up. Actually, while I was on a rotation program one of my assignments was graveyard shift in the stacking of the graphite inside the pile. So I've actually been inside one of the reactors. And I was the inspector to see that each bar went in the right location and according to the plan for layout and nobody was tracking any contaminating material in there and so on. But also before that went into operation, there was a chamber underneath the reactor. And a scientist from Los Alamos named Fred Reines was trying to find experimental proof of the existence of neutrinos, which characteristically can pass through most any matter undetected. And so he got permission to build an apparatus called a scintillation counter chamber with fluid underneath that reacted—using the reactor as a shield from other background events to try to see if he could get a few counts of neutrino interactions in that chamber. He later went on, did the experiments in that deep gold mine in South Dakota and other locations and contributed to the verification of neutrino existence. Eventually won a Nobel Prize at the end of his career, at the end of his life, literally. So that was another just interesting thing. It had nothing to do with Hanford, but that occurred in that assignment. We used to, when I worked in that, our office was in the fire station at H Area. And so we used to visit, there was more of the old town of White Bluffs at that time. There was a cold storage facility, the bank, of course, which they're now talking about restoring. There was the old Milwaukee railroad station, very picturesque. Sorry they tore that down. And we used to go drive down there and eat lunch under the remaining trees. Later, I was transferred to the graphite group. And that was in 1954. And the history of after they started up the piles and they first discovered the xenon poisoning and so on. That story is well-told. But there was also what they considered a serious problem with the distortion of the graphite. The graphite was expanding under radiation. And so at the top of the reactor, it was visibly—not visibly, but measurably bending the tube that the slugs were in. And it was becoming more difficult to push them in and out and loading the reactor. And they thought if this keeps going, we can't continue the operation. In fact, it's my recollection--I don't have the records—that they shut down B-Reactor for some period of time in order to preserve it. And they built DR, which was a replacement for D in case they had to abandon it. But then there was much more concern about the expansion of the graphite. So they changed the inert atmosphere inside the reactor shielding from helium to a mixture of helium and carbon dioxide to heat it up—heat the graphite up—to a higher temperature figuring that this would anneal out the damage to the graphite. That did happen, in fact. And so I was assigned to keep track of how this was progressing according to the power levels of the reactor, because they were also then trying to increase the power levels of the reactor to produce more plutonium. But they didn't know how high in temperature was safe to go, didn't have good ways to measure the temperature in them. We were measuring the profiles. And so that was a very interesting task. And I was there doing that until 1956, when Hanford Laboratories was formed. And the Hanford Laboratories was formed and given the project for recycling plutonium in nuclear power reactors, which was their first peacetime mission for the Hanford Plant—or purely exclusively peacetime—unclassified, nothing to do with production of plutonium. But aimed at getting the maximum amount of energy out of the uranium ore resources. And so that would involve design of the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor from start to finish and the operation of that. That was a heavy water reactor, entirely different type of unique design. And so that was a very interesting project. So I was fortunate in having some very different job assignments throughout my career here in different technologies. And that, in fact, is what kept me here [LAUGHTER] for so long is that ever-changing job challenge. Bauman: So how long were you at the PRTR? Fox: I was there from 1956 until early 1960s, till about '63. I forget the date it went critical and into operation and I then moved on to other things because I wasn't associated with the operation of it. But it also has a very interesting operating history, because of a particular experiment that was done there that went awry. Bauman: Do you want to talk about that? [LAUGHTER] Fox: Well, I think it's well worth getting somebody who knows more about it who was involved in the fuel technology. Particularly today when there is a project at Savannah River for building mixed oxide fuel elements from the plutonium that's recovered from the weapons reduction program. And they have a project there that's in about the same sort of situation as the Vitrification Plant here in budget and schedule and so on. And yet, in the 308 Building in the 300 Area, mixed oxide plutonium, uranium oxide fuel elements were manufactured for the PRTR back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. That plant has since been torn down. But the experiment that went awry was to run—the fuel rods in the PRTR were made of zirconium clad mixed oxide fuel elements, very similar to what's normal for nuclear power reactors. And that was the whole idea, that they were different mainly, and that they contained plutonium from the beginning. But it was decided to run an experiment to see how hot you could run those. If you could run them safely with the core of the mixed oxide molten in a fuel element that's about so in diameter. And I forget the melting point, but it's higher than 2,200 centigrade or something like that. And one of the fuel elements melted through the cladding and the pressure tube holding it and so on and seriously damaged the reactor. And had to have been—it was a big repair job. And I'm sure that's all recorded. I was not associated with it, but of course I heard about it [LAUGHTER] at the time. It's a story well worth telling, I think, about that time. Bauman: So after your assignment at PRTR, then where did you go from there next? Fox: Well, then we were working on trying to develop further reactor concepts. We did a little work for NASA when they were working on a rocket reactor that they had a design that was competing with Los Alamos for nuclear rockets. But that came to naught. Eventually, the successor to the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor was the Fast Flux Test Reactor, fast reactor fuel. And that was just beginning. That was after Battelle took over the operation of the laboratories in 1965. So that's beyond the time frame for your main interest. But in the late '60s, the group I was in was working partly to support Exxon Nuclear in their private fuel manufacturing venture, which they later sold to Siemens, and which Siemens later sold to AREVA, which is still in operation of manufacturing commercial reactor fuel. But that grew out of the lab. And some of the people, in fact, one of them who used to work for me that I just had lunch with at the Kiwanis meeting ended up working for Exxon and so on, and he retired from that. So that was a spin-off project. The FFTF project was turned over in 1970 to Westinghouse Hanford and taken away from Battelle. And at that time I had the choice of going either with the FFTF project or staying with Battelle for who knows what. And I decided to stay with Battelle for who knows what. I decided to get out of the nuclear business and move on to other things. Bauman: Hanford, obviously, is a site that emphasized security, secrecy, to a certain extent as well. Fox: Yes. Bauman: How did that impact your work? Or did it in any way? Fox: The security? Bauman: Security and secrecy. Fox: I didn't think it impacted it all that much. When I was working the 100 Areas, you know, it was a secure area. Nearly everything we did was classified. We had classified filing cabinets. We kept everything. We had to account for all the documents in our possession, or sending them into the library, so on. So there was more or less an accounting thing we had to destroy any drafts, procedures, and so on. You didn't want to forget your badge going to work. [LAUGHTER] After I retired, I still occasionally had a dream about going to work and somehow getting in the building and then discovering I didn't have my badge and thought, how—[LAUGHTER] what's going to happen? But you know, I think there were a few occasions when I forgot my badge. But it was never a big issue. I was—eventually in Battelle, I had very few classified documents. And it became more of a nuisance to have a classified file cabinet and so on. And then they can through on a campaign to reduce the number of security clearances. And they asked me to give up my security clearance. I didn't have any problem with that because it relieved me of that nuisance. It wasn't a problem to me about discussing it with anybody external. I think there was probably a little more cross talk between different projects. For example, at the time I came there were some projects that were a little more secret than others, like the P10 project for production of tritium at B Reactor. And some of the guys in the dorm were working on that. And they would talk about the problems with a metal liner, the glass liner, or this, that, or the other thing. We didn’t know—you got some idea of what that project was like, but you didn't really know the whole flow sheet for it or all of that. But you were aware that it was going on. So, just stuff like that. Bauman: President Kennedy visited the site in 1963. I wonder if you were there when he visited? Fox: That's right. You could go out there and you could take your camera with you. And you could take a photo of President Kennedy giving his speech, which I did. And that was not long before he was assassinated that fall. I forget the date, but it was maybe September of '63. Bauman: Mm-hmm, yeah. So you got a photo of him while he was giving his speech? Fox: Yeah. Yes, I did from a distance. I didn't have a good telephoto lens, [LAUGHTER] unfortunately at the time. Bauman: Do you remember anything else about his visit? Fox: Not especially. I don't remember what he said. Bauman: Were there any other events or incidents or things from those early years working at Hanford that stand out to you that you remember? Fox: A sort of an off-the-wall type of one. This was back earlier on when I was at the fire station at H Area. And at that time, there was a fighter aircraft based at Moses Lake, Larson Air Force Base. And again, it was protection for the Hanford plant. And a pilot from there had a flame-out over the Yakima firing range somewhere and ejected and landed on the Hanford plant. And he landed in a tree. And they had to—Hanford patrol had to get him out of his parachute out of the tree. [LAUGHTER] How ironic in all of that space that he could find a tree to land in. [LAUGHTER] But the—I’m trying to think—there were other events. There was an incident with the startup of K West Reactor. I think that's another sort of plant war story to tell. And I don't know what's been said about that. I recall there was a deadline to meet for the startup of the N Reactor. And that was practically willed into happening [LAUGHTER] before the stroke of midnight or so on. And you know there were sort of war stories to be told about that. Bauman: What would you consider the most challenging aspects of working at Hanford, especially in the '50s and '60s? And what might have been some more rewarding aspects of your work there? Fox: Well, the challenging aspects were trying to get more production for the Cold War and trying to determine what were the safe limits on operation for the piles, the temperature limits, avoiding incipient boiling in the tubes in the reactor core. And I assume that there were similar issues with the chemical processing plants. Again, because of the compartmentalization of the technology, I never worked in the 200 Areas. I had no understanding of the processes there or the issues there. And the infamous green run that you've probably heard some people talk about had occurred before I came here. That was very early in the Cold War, but they still talked about it. Individual radiation exposure limits were more—I wouldn't say they were casual—but compared to today's standards, they were relaxed. Procedures for doing things were not as cumbersome as they are today. It's practically impossible to get anything done today [LAUGHTER] under the work rules and procedures by comparison. And yet, it got done and generally safely. The only really serious accident that I can recall that involved radiation was the one in the Plutonium Finishing Plant with the glove-box with the americium. And I can't recall the employee's name got the bad exposure with americium and had treatment. But I don't know anything about the specifics of it. One technical challenge that was not met that I can recall, and I had one of the assignments on the rotational training program, which I mentioned earlier, was in the fuel manufacturing area in the 300 Area. I don't know if you've interviewed anybody who worked there, but the fuel process had an aluminum can about eight inches long and about a little over an inch in diameter. And you stuck the uranium slug in it. But where you did that in order to bond it to the slug, you stood over a pot of molten aluminum silicon alloy. And you had a holder that held the uranium can and the steel tube. You lowered that into the pot of molten alloy. And the operator manually pushed the solid uranium slug into it and then lifted it out and set it aside. And then it was cooled off and cleaned off and sent over to weld the cap on the aluminum can. Well, General Electric looked at this and said, this is a cumbersome manual process. And these workers are standing over this pot of hot molten alloy. Not a pleasant job. And we ought to be able to automate this, so they set up two competing approaches to automating it. And one was, let me call it a tinker toy set up approach. It's a disparaging term, but attempt to replicate the manual process with machinery to repeat—robotic, I guess, is a better word to use--to replicate that process. And I had a short assignment for three months because I was a mechanical engineer on doing that. And I made a couple of suggestions for it, which didn't work out as it turned out. So I didn't contribute anything to make a success of that. And it was ultimately unsuccessful. The other was for the design group to design a machine to do it by some alternate process. And there was a third process proposed that was more mechanical bonding process, but that was never tried out experimentally. The ultimate result was no process failed. And they used the manual process for as long as the whole production reactors existed. The N Reactor, the dual purpose reactor, used a completely different process because it required high temperature materials. Bauman: So then what would have been some of the more rewarding aspects of working at Hanford for you? Fox: Well to me personally, it was interesting because it was, of course, an entirely new technology at that time. And it was apparent to me that the Hanford graphite reactor technology was not suitable for power reactors in the long run. It got me to thinking about that. I had the opportunity also later toward the end of the '60s and the early '70s to teach a course here at what was then joint graduate center in reactor design. And also for three or four years to help with a spring quarter design course at the University of Washington in Seattle as an adjunct there in their spring design graduate level course on reactor design. So that, again, was very interesting, the interaction with students, and particularly at the University with foreign students. It's a clear contrast between American educated students and foreign educated students and trying to stimulate different ideas or taking a different look at things in the design course for how to apply the basic knowledge or principles or how to make trade-offs when you also had to get into the economics of things. The Hanford plant really didn't have much of an economic element to it. It was wartime, and you know it's almost at any cost—not quite that way, but-- So it led me to be able to think of things differently and think more of the getting into application versus theory. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Most of the students that I teach now were born after the Cold War ended, or many of them were, and don't know much about it or certainly don’t have many memories of it. So I wonder what you might say to either those students that I would have or future generations about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Fox: Well, I didn't think of it as anything special. And quite frankly, I think that I see these ads on television daily now about Cold War warriors or so on contributing to the Cold War effort. And I never viewed it in that or through a quasi-patriotic way. It was an interesting job. It was more interesting than a lot of other jobs I might have had in a career. And the fact that it in some way contributed to the beneficial end to the Cold War was okay, but I don't feel it deserves anything special. I mean, there are quite a few other things that needed to be in place to prevail in the Cold War—the whole rocket missile technology, the miniaturization of the weapons, the nuclear weapons, the hydrogen bomb, which Hanford had little contribution to, except the early production of tritium. It just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Bauman: I wonder if I could ask you, at what point did you get involved in city government? And was that in any way any connection to your work at Hanford at all? Fox: No. No, no connection. I've always had some interest in government, maybe inspired by a high school civics teachers named Wade Williams at Lincoln High School in Portland. And a high school alumni bulletin I just got last week named him as one of their outstanding teachers of all time. And he was a controversial guy, a very provocative guy. Staunch Republican in an era when everybody was a Democrat and a successful baseball coach [LAUGHTER] teaching government or social studies. But when we had kids in school I was on the school board for eight years in the late '70s and early '80s. Because I was concerned that the school that they built across the street here was mal-designed for the high school. And that the school was off on an education fad of the decade, was dictating school design according to some idealistic model that wasn't very practical in practice. But I just basically believe it’s a citizen's responsibility to give something back to the community as best he or she can, according to their abilities, whatever way works. And I felt I had something to contribute along that line. When I was on the school board, I was a dissenting vote on eliminating the teaching of world history at the junior high level, because students aren't interested in that kind of thing. And I'm not a believer in ignoring history, which is why I'm here today, isn't it? We're talking about the history of Hanford. When I retired, I wanted to do something more. And I got on the Parks Commission and ultimately, on the city council. Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about your time working at Hanford, or that you haven't talked about yet that you think would be important to talk about? Fox: Well as I've been saying to a number of people in talking about the Reach and the CREHST Museum and so on and some of the issues they have their currently, I think is important not to think just about the wartime mission or the wartime plus the Cold War mission, but it has led to other things. As I think I mentioned by a couple of examples I previously gave that it lead to peacetime missions. And part of that was a deliberate federal policy to say, okay, we've started this community here. There's a big investment in that community. We need to find a way to support some economy there after the wartime mission is completed and the plant is shut down. And so it led to peacetime missions. And that's led to the evolution of what's now the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and a whole science and technology. And there are unforeseen consequences of that. And the unforeseen consequences aren't always bad. [LAUGHTER] They seem to be for any action taken in the Middle East. But here, it's led to a very vital research laboratory. And we wouldn't have a branch campus of a university here today without that. And that's all an asset to the community. When the Hanford plant was originated, people came from all over the country to work here. It built a more diverse community of backgrounds and interests than in any other city its size in eastern Washington. And that persists now. It's a legacy from that. And it's built on and built on and built on in those directions. Out of the lab came the original patent for digital recording, little known, totally unrelated, so on. What else will come out of it in the future? We can't know. But I think we can estimate that something will come out of it that will be for the greater good and we'll see. Bauman: All right. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and talking with us about your experiences. Appreciate it. Fox: Okay. Thanks. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01:38 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 185 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview H Area VIT PLant 300 Area K West Reactor N reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Fox Description An account of the resource An interview with John Fox conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-9-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 300 Area General Electric H Area Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) K West Reactor N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F39d03f0487c714c2a40d8c325d3d92b7.JPG 66034390ea94cc8b347e1ed88f62672f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John G. Garcia Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Garcia on May 22, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? 0:00:19 John Garcia: John G. Garcia. J-O-H-N. G. G-A-R-C-I-A. Franklin: Okay, great. So, John, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. 0:00:34 Garcia: A friend of mine that I met in Fort Knox, Kentucky, he and his wife moved back out here. They were originally from the Sunnyside area. And he got a job at Hanford, more or less following in his mom’s and dad’s footsteps. He was a welder. So he told me they were going to restart PUREX and PFP and he got me in that good old-fashioned paper application. So I filled it out and mailed it in, and then I drove out here all by myself in August of 1982. I wasn’t here long, and I called the employment office. In the meantime, I found—I had a job picking grapes for Welch’s grape juice and other more or less temporary jobs. 0:01:26 Then they decided to hire people for the restart of PUREX and PFP. It was about 60 or 70 men and women. According to my tribal knowledge, it was the biggest hire of women and minorities in the history of Hanford. They trained us, you know, more or less from the ground up. There were people that were college graduates, there were people that were high school dropouts, and everything in between. So they taught us about safety, about radiological safety, criticality safety, and how to work the process. When our clearances came in—you had to have either an L or a Q, Q being the highest, to work at PFP or at PUREX. When they came in, then you got to go into the building. You had somebody that mentored you for a while. 0:02:33 In December of ’83, that’s when they started the Plutonium Finishing Plant up for real. We were using real life plutonium. What the idea was was extract plutonium from waste products or from the processed fuel rods that came from the reactors, primarily N. And then they would take that to PUREX, separate out some of the uranium from the plutonium and it would go over to PFP and get concentrated. They would make hockey-puck-sized—what we called buttons. It would fit inside of a tuna fish can. About two-thirds of the nuclear arsenal came through PFP in the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s. 0:03:29 So most of us had no clue how it worked. But we learned it. We made lots of mistakes. It was sometimes chaotic. [LAUGHTER] But we got through it. 0:03:34 Franklin: How old were you when you came out? Garcia: I was 30. Franklin: What had you been doing before? 0:03:51 Garcia: Back in Kentucky where I met my friends, I worked at like a grocery store for the military. They called them commissaries. Franklin: Yeah, like a PX. Garcia: Yeah. Well, a commissary is like the foodstuff. PX is like the hardwares and jewelry. So his wife was in the Army, so they invited me to come out here. I lived with them in Sunnyside for eight or nine months. Then I got the Hanford job and moved to Richland. 0:04:24 Franklin: Where were you from originally? Garcia: Kentucky. Fort Knox, Kentucky. I grew up all over the country, and a few places in Europe. So moving around was no big deal to me. Franklin: Were you a military— Garcia: Brat, yeah. Franklin: A military brat. 0:04:41 Garcia: I tried to join the Army—that’s another story. I tried to join the Army and the Air Force during the Vietnam War. And I couldn’t see the eye chart well enough to pass the physical. So I decided, go to Plan B, and that was to make nuclear weapons. [LAUGHTER] Garcia: As it turned out. 0:05:02 Franklin: Yeah. What did you know about Hanford before you drove out here? Garcia: Just from what my friends told me and a small article in the World Book Encyclopedia, that it was a World War II project, and that’s pretty much all the article said in the encyclopedia. And what my friends told me is, yeah, this is where they make plutonium. Plutonium! And so they’re going to start it up again and they’re going to hire a lot of people. Not a whole lot. I learned a lot on the fly. 0:05:37 That was the—I wasn’t a science major or any—in school. I never went to college much. But history was my thing. So here we are, surrounded by history at Hanford. All those old buildings. I was looking for an apartment in Richland, and I drove through there, and it was like E.T. Home, home! Because it looked like military housing. So I felt more comfortable there and I never looked in Kennewick or Pasco. It was Richland. And they had a bus system that would get you there no matter what. Rain or shine, sleet or snow. I lived in Richland about 35 years. Just recently moved to Pasco after I retired. 0:06:23 There’s a picture of N that they took when it was running in 1944 that’s got some steam plumes and all the buildings that are there. That was in the article in the World Book Encyclopedia. It was only a paragraph or two about it. It was still running; it was still secret. So they couldn’t say much. 0:06:50 Franklin: Right. Let’s see here. What were your first impressions of the area when you came? Garcia: Of Hanford? Franklin: Yeah, of Tri-Cities and Hanford. 0:07:00 Garcia: I drove with some friends from Tacoma to Pullman. We came down that hill. There used to be a restaurant, the Silver Dollar, and there’s a long stretch of road that comes out of Moxee and Yakima, and it was all lit up. It was at night. I said, what is that? Oh, that’s Hanford. And that’s about all they would say. So little did I know, that would be my future. Like I said, it was that history from World War II and the Cold War. And I knew this area—I’d been through here before—was desert. There was dry, sagebrush, cheatgrass. It wasn’t the spectacular part of the Evergreen State, the green part. I knew it was dry and barren. But I was impressed by the Columbia River going through all of this and it was dry almost right up to the shore. 0:08:00 Franklin: Where all onsite did you work? Garcia: Let’s see. I worked for 20 years at PFP. I worked about a year or so at PUREX. Worked a few months at Tank Farms, one of the Tank Farms. I worked a little while, a few long months, at what they called True Retrieval. They were digging up waste drums and solid, big, giant boxes full of waste. Franklin: Was that at one of the burial grounds? 0:08:34 Garcia: Yeah. That’s where they would go and dig up stuff out of the burial grounds and then reprocess it and store it in all those big barns across the street from it. And then my last seven or eight years was with MSA, or its forerunner, doing a lot of things. They’re like the—they take care of the electrical grid, they take care of the cranes that work in the Tank Farms, mostly, surveying offices, roads, vegetation, animals. I did a lot of that at the end. That was a nice job. I had a nice little cubicle all my own and worked at my own pace. It was a good job. 0:09:19 Franklin: Oh, wow. So you started as a nuclear process operator. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: Right? At PFP. Garcia: Yes. 0:09:24 Franklin: And can you describe a typical work day as a nuclear process operator? Garcia: Well, not long after they started up, we went to shift. X, Y, Z: days, swings and graveyard. So that was something new to me, although I’d worked nights on the grape harvest. We’d come in and we’d get put on our, what we call SWPs, the white cotton clothes. We’d tape on booties and surgeon’s gloves, two pair. Put on a pair of canvas gloves, and we’d go to our office—or the control room. The manager would tell us, this is what we’re going to do today. This is where you’re assigned. It wasn’t exactly a pre-job, which in later years, really took hold. It was more just the assignments. That was pretty much how they did it every day. 0:10:20 The first part of the PFP experience was the solvent extraction part. Getting the plutonium in nitrate solution concentrated to about 300 grams per liter. Then they would store that. After they got enough of it made, then that’s what they would use to make the buttons. So that was a different thing. They shut down the solvent extraction then we’d concentrate and get some training on the button production. We could make about, on a good shift, about six or eight buttons a shift. If things went wrong, not so many. 0:11:00 But I changed. The first buttons we made, I reached into the glovebox and looked at it. They were about the size of the palm of your hand. They’re a gun metal gray, and they’re warm to the touch. Because there’s so much activity. It’s about 99.9% plutonium, which is what they want. And then eventually they would use that to hone the spheres that went into the weapons. And I looked at this button, and I thought, what have I done? I have sold my soul to the devil. Because this thing could kill millions and billions of people. I put it down. 0:11:41 Then I started looking for another angle. That’s when I got into health physics protection. It’s had a number of different names, but it’s pretty much the same job, setting radiation dose rates for workers, contamination checks, and a million other things. So the snarky answer I made up for my relatives and other people is, I protect workers, the environment, and the public from the detrimental effects of ionizing radiation. Because people asked me what I did, and it could take a long time to explain it without giving away too many secrets. So that was the nutshell answer I came up with. Franklin: That’s pretty good. 0:12:29 Garcia: Thank you. And then later on, they stole my idea and I read that in a textbook. At first, we were radiation monitors, then we were RPTs, radiation protection technologists. Then we got into health physics technologists. 0:12:43 Franklin: Yeah. And that was your way of kind of distancing yourself from directly participating in the production of the weapons-grade— 0:12:55 Garcia: Yeah. I knew I needed a job that paid well and had benefits. And I took less money to do it. I wasn’t married, so I had nobody to account for. So it fit my political philosophy a lot more. And it wasn’t unheard of for somebody to get out of operations and get into radiation protection. But it wasn’t common. But yeah. I was glad I did it. I felt a lot better. And my radiation exposure went down to next to nothing. Franklin: Right. 0:13:34 Garcia: The first two-and-a-half years or so, you know, my exposure was—you know, not life-threatening, but enough to—yeah. And we would have a meeting and the boss would say, well, if we don’t stop doing this, and if we don’t get this done, we’re all going down the road. But I think what he meant was, he was going down the road. So we’d do better, and still make mistakes. And I just got tired of hearing it. It didn’t motivate me. So I said, well, I’m going to find a job I could maybe take elsewhere. 0:14:08 But working at a reactor, a power reactor, like Energy Northwest or somewhere else, that’s a different ballgame. It’s way different. They’re a lot more educated, they’re a lot more talented, and they’re a lot more independent. We were just sort of side-by-side with the operators. At first, in the old days, they looked to the RMs for guidance and protection. But later on, operations sort of ruled the roost. They weren’t interested, so much, in what you had to say. But still it was important what dose rates you were having or the contamination you might encounter. 0:14:53 Franklin: When you said you could produce—was it six to eight buttons a shift— Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: --if things went right; you said, fewer if things could go wrong. What kind of things would complicate the process? 0:15:08 Garcia: Valve leaks, pipe leaks, just like counting leaks, like, were we supposed to have this much material? We only have that much, and then they’d have to look for it. Just breakdowns, mostly mechanical breakdowns. Sometimes in the room, there were the constant air monitors. They were sampling the air, and it had an alarm set point. It had a detector inside of it, and if enough plutonium got on the air sample filter, it would alarm. It would be a red flashing light and a ringing bell. It got your attention. 0:15:45 So you’d have to evacuate the room, because nine times out of ten, you weren’t wearing a respirator. So you had to go out of the room, and then go back—make a plan, and go back on respiratory protection and clean it up. Plutonium oxide is real flighty. It’s almost like alive. You’d have a little bit here and you’d wipe it up, and some of it would go over there. So you were chasing it down. And multiply that by a big room. So that was one of the problems. As well as an internal deposition problem. So that was probably the biggest hold up, was if there was a leak in a glovebox or a bag, then they would seal the material out in like an industrial-strength seal-a-meal. If it sprung a leak, then you’d have to clean it up. Because you couldn’t work effectively with a respirator on. You couldn’t see as well, and it’s a real stressor on the human body. 0:16:42 Franklin: Right, and very hot, too. Garcia: Yeah, you’d sweat up a storm, break your seal and, yeah. You had to pass a physical every year. Part of it was you’d put on a respirator and you had some sensing tubes in it coming out of it. You’d do, turn your head around, read catchy phrases that’d move all the muscles around in your face, to make sure you were getting an adequate seal. And they had you know, just like canisters that would, the particulates, then they had fresh air, then they had SCBA. And the more of that, was more protection. Franklin: What’s the SCBA? Garcia: It’s S—well, that’s what we called it. It was like, on your back like you would wear for scuba diving. Franklin: Oh, right, right. 0:17:33 Garcia: Yeah. That afforded you a lot of protection, but more mobility. The other type was the fresh air, and that was on a hose that connected to your mask. But you know, you had the risk of breaking the connection in the hose, or somebody would step on the hose and things like. And you’d be dragging this hose around wherever you went. So the SCUBA, I don’t know if you could maybe get 45, 50 minutes out of it. But you had mobility. But when the alarm went off, it was time to go and probably get another bottle. But I’d say probably 80% of my time was on the canister. In the old days, they had a single canister, looked like a World War I gas mask. And then later on they got more modern. But it wasn’t the place to—I thought I was bulletproof. Come to find out, I wasn’t bulletproof. 0:18:30 Franklin: So after the being a nuclear process operator at PFP, you moved into being a health physics tech. Garcia: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Right? And that was mostly at PUREX? Or no, PFP. Garcia: Most of it was at PFP. PUREX, Tank Farms, and the other MSA job, the True Retrieval. 0:18:52 Franklin: Could you describe a typical work day as an HPT? Garcia: Just depending on what you were assigned to. You could be assigned to covering the crane maintenance people. You know, those big giant things, that lift up cover blocks that weighed tons or moving equipment around. You had a lot of independence with that. Your boss wasn’t looking over your shoulder all the time. And he would go meet with like the crane operators, and so, what are you guys doing? Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t. So it was different enough everyday but it was similar everyday not to be taken by surprise all the time. 0:19:36 The first thing you would do is you’d come in and you’d set up your instruments. You’d make sure they were in calibration, you made sure they worked right. And you would do a source check with radioactive disks and you’d make sure that you were in your parameters for your instrumentation. Because that’s what it was all about. You were nothing without your instruments. My first mentor, he said, John, don’t go anywhere, in a building or anywhere, without some kind of instrument. Because then what good are you? You might as well be a fencepost. So I always, whatever I did, wherever—I always had instruments, then backups to the instruments. Because you could get pretty far afield and you’d break one or it’d go bad somehow and you would, instead of driving ten miles to go get another one, you’d better have another one in your truck. 0:20:31 Franklin: What kinds of instruments would you use for monitoring? Garcia: There was a homemade invention developed at Hanford called a CP. Franklin: A cutie pie. 0:20:43 Garcia: A cutie pie. A lot of the nomenclature for the instruments and almost everything else was secrecy. The CP was pretty much, looked the same from when they invented it. They modified some. It had a cylinder about maybe four or five inches in diameter, about four inches, five inches long. And the radiation would go into the cylinder and it would ionize the air in the cylinder, then it would move a needle. Franklin: Right, you’d kind of point it at like— Garcia: Yeah, or do it from the side, yeah. Franklin: From the side. 0:21:16 Garcia: It had two different kinds, for beta and for gamma, you could take this window off. It made of some plastic-y looking material. Then underneath that was Mylar, it looked a lot like real thin aluminum foil. Then that was for radiation. There were other kinds for that. Then there was what we call a poppy, for alpha. Then there was a GM, a Geiger Mueller. That was for beta-gamma. It looked like a lollipop, only bigger. And it had a screen and the radiation would go through— Franklin: Right, it had a probe. Garcia: Right, a probe. Franklin: We have examples of all of these in our collection. Garcia: Okay. 0:21:58 Franklin: And so the alpha was used—the poppies were primarily to monitor plutonium. Garcia: Mm-hmm. 0:22:05 Franklin: Right? What’s the difference between the CP and the GM? Why would one—you know, they both measure beta-gamma. What was each one good at? Garcia: The saturation point for a GM was pretty low. You could peg it and it wasn’t good anymore to you. It wasn’t made for setting a dose rate; it was to find contamination. Franklin: I see. 0:22:28 Garcia: The CP was for dose rates. And all the dose rates you set and the contamination found was a legal record. We’d have to write what we call a survey report, after every job or after every day. And the dose rates you wrote down, and you signed your name to it. They’re still on file somewhere, probably in a cold storage place in Seattle. All that stuff is a legal record and it’s been used in litigation. So they really—as time went on, you had to write your survey report correctly, because it had ramifications beyond just that day’s work. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. 0:23:11 Garcia: One of the—the coolest job I had was for about six years I surveyed tumbleweeds all over the Site. From Yakima to the Wye Barricade and everywhere in between. Because they would go—the taproot can go about 20 feet, and they would get into contamination, being a very primitive plant. They’re looking for calcium. So cesium and strontium, yeah, that’s just as good to the tumbleweed. And they would soak it up. Because they only live about a year, they would get into the root primarily, and they would break off and roll around. So we would survey the root, the stem, and if they were contaminated—and maybe 3% were—we’d put that in a special truck and then they would take that to ERDF and bury those. 0:24:02 But the rest of them, they would put in a regular old white garbage truck-looking thing and take that to a pit. After they got enough of them, they would burn them. And you’ve never seen a fire till you’ve seen a tumbleweed fire. You could be 100 yards away and still feel the heat. They get pretty hot. I thought maybe they could make starter sticks out of them for campers. They never found anything useful for a tumbleweed. 0:24:32 That was a good job. I got to see a lot of stuff. Especially as an HPT. And in that particular assignment, a lot of places that other people never went to, didn’t have a chance to go to. Because they were stuck in their little facility and couldn’t get out. Franklin: So you’d kind of go out into the natural environment. Garcia: Yeah. 0:24:53 Franklin: Did you ever find much evidence, artifacts from the pre-Manhattan Project settlers-- Garcia: Well— Franklin: --that were evicted? 0:25:00 Garcia: Well, yeah. Yeah. But pretty much that had been cleaned up, and we knew better than to mess with it. We just left it in place. We might tell our manager, he might tell somebody, you know, they found this, this tool or coin or something. But most of it was pretty gone. We never went much into the old town site. A few times, but mostly the tumbleweed search was around Tank Farms. Because they didn’t want contaminated tumbleweeds blowing into the Tank Farms and creating a problem. But yeah we went to a lot of places. 0:25:38 Franklin: What was the most challenging aspect of your work at Hanford? Garcia: Probably convincing workers that I was there for their best interest. Sometimes they would disagree or want to fight or just were stubborn. And their managers, besides. Because it was production versus safety. Even though they may preach and talk, yeah, safety over production, that wasn’t always the case. They were under pressure to produce the plutonium or to get so much stuff cleaned up or whatever. I could see their point, but at the same time, I never had to put myself between them and harm’s way to protect them. But that was probably the biggest challenge. 0:26:33 Being an introvert, for the most part, I had to have a different personality at Hanford than I did at home or anywhere else. And it was exhausting. I had to like, grr. Some people, it didn’t faze them because they were an extrovert all the time. We even had a few patrolmen, when they cut back on the number of patrolmen, who transferred into radiation protection. They had, for most of them, that worked perfectly, because they were used to chewing people out and trying to straighten people out. And I, you know, I would try to be diplomatic, if not polite, trying to tell people what kind of mistake or what ramifications it might have. Sometimes they would listen sometimes not. 0:27:21 So it was—because from what I understand, people that are from 18 to 25—don’t take this personally—they think they are bulletproof. That’s why a young man will get off a landing craft and run onto the beach in northern France. Because they don’t think anything’s going to happen to them. And peer pressure. And a lot of these guys I worked with, that was their age frame, and they thought they were bulletproof. They weren’t going to get contaminated, they weren’t going to get internal deposition. But a lot of them did. Franklin: Right, they just wanted to make some money. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: Right? 0:27:54 Garcia: They wanted to make money and they didn’t think there was anything to worry about. Franklin: Yeah. Garcia: Maybe that was a defense mechanism; I don’t know. But I had healthy respect for it. But then I was a little older. 0:28:04 Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. What was the most rewarding aspect of your work at Hanford? Garcia: Probably bailing people out of dicey situations. Decontaminating their skin. Checking their nose for contamination, and just occasionally pulling them out of the fire. Some of them thanked me, and some of them didn’t. I’d almost—I didn’t live for it, but I didn’t back away from it. Sometimes one of those cam alarms would go off and there’s a room full of people. Then you’ve really got a situation. And I liked doing it. I just wanted to help them out. I knew how they felt: it happened to me. I wanted to make sure that they went home in good shape. And I never had anybody get hurt or really get into a bad situation. 0:29:04 Franklin: Right on. What were some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history such as plants shutting down? Garcia: I think 100-N, when that shut down, it had a ripple effect. You could kind of tell things weren’t going to be the same. And then when they decided they couldn’t run the Plutonium Finishing Plant anymore, they had a lot of excess material that they needed to stabilize. The biggest problem was carbon tetrachloride. They couldn’t find a substitute for it that worked as well in their system. So they tried a number of things and when they came to the realization that they couldn’t do it again, then they shut PFP down. They stabilized the material as best they could, and then shut it down. But that took like about ten years to finally realize, yeah, this isn’t going to work anymore. Franklin: Ten years after--? Garcia: After the initial shutdown. After the Cold War shut down. Franklin: Oh, wow. 0:30:17 Garcia: I never thought it would happen. I thought, you know, the Soviet Union would exist forever, and we’d be making plutonium and nuclear weapons—forever. I read a book earlier this year by Daniel Ellsberg. When that movie came out about the Pentagon Papers? He was also a nuclear war planner. And not only did he steal the Pentagon Papers, he stole a lot of material about weapons and nuclear war. He said that this mutually assured destruction was the craziest idea in the history of the human race, because nobody was going to win. The planet would be destroyed. Every body and every thing would die. Because of the power of those weapons and everything, we would create the nuclear winter. It gave me another perspective. I’m like, God! I really sold my soul to the devil. And his dad was an engineer and a plant designer, and he helped design PUREX and a few of the other places. I never heard that till I read his book. Franklin: Huh. Garcia: So, yeah, that was quite an awakening, too. Franklin: Oh, I bet. Garcia: But I was retired, so I was innocent after that. No, I did my share. Franklin: Wow. 0:31:43 Garcia: But I would talk to people and said, hey, what do you think of this? Don’t you think this is bad? And I would pick my subjects very carefully. Because you didn’t know. There were still, you know—secrecy; the FBI would send you questionnaires and things like that. And it got worse as time went on. And most people said, yeah, there’s a thousand other people that would take my job tomorrow. So it doesn’t matter that I’m doing it, because somebody else will do it. So I pretty much left it at that. I only tried that question two or three times. 0:32:22 The secrecy got changed. At first it was like, you didn’t say a word. The old days, you didn’t tell your wife and kids or relatives what you did. And that pretty much stayed the same until the Cold War had been over for a little while. After some time, they had another level of security and you had to take a psychological test on paper and on a computer and fill out more forms and answer more questions. You know, you had to live pretty much a boy scout lifestyle. But the Tri-Cities always had this squeaky-clean reputation to some people. But underneath the surface. [LAUGHTER] Not so much. There’s a lot of stuff going on. So that was at my time at PFP. 0:33:22 Then when I left that, I got out of that program. Where I worked wasn’t as secure. I didn’t have gates to go through. You had the Wye or the Yakima gate. And then there was another gate, closer in 200-West, 200-East and they would search your trunk, open up your glovebox—or from Idaho, jockey box. You couldn’t say, no. Because otherwise, adios. And that died off. They got rid of those 2-East and 2-West gates and it was just the one, and that was mostly a guy looking at your badge and waving you through. Franklin: Yeah, looking at your badge and then— Garcia: Yeah. 0:34:00 Franklin: Yeah, yeah, because when I go on Site to do artifact evaluations, it’s always—I think that’s a lot of security, but I mean, I wasn’t here in the Cold War days, you know. Because also to get into PFP there was also security at the entrance, too, right? Garcia: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Where they checked your bags, you had to go through like a metal detector and everything. Garcia: Yup. Franklin: So there were several layers. And PFP was also surrounded by, like, anti-tank, there were some anti-tank things and like guard shacks and things like that. 0:34:40 Garcia: Yeah. Yeah, I was going to get to that. Yeah, there were two fences, barbed wire. There were sensors on wires or in the ground. And then the rooms were locked. You couldn’t just go in because you wanted to, in most areas. You had to have somebody open the combination or with a key, and most often you had to have another person with you. You had to have a reason to be there, and you had to have your badge on. Once in a while you’d find somebody that left it behind somewhere. And there were cameras on the outside and on the inside. And PUREX was pretty much the same way. You know, the fences and the guards and the cameras. So yeah. The other places, not so much. 0:35:27 Franklin: It’s funny you mentioned that question that you asked, that kind of tricky question. It’s a question I myself wrestle with. I’m also not from here, and I’ve always—it’s a question I’m always very interested to ask but don’t ask very often. You know? But I’m curious to ask you later about it, if you want to answer it. Garcia: Okay. No problem. I haven’t asked anyone that question in a long time. 0:35:58 Franklin: I bet. I bet not. I mean, my last question I ask is, what do you want future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And usually the answer I get is about World War II, the bomb won the war. I didn’t ask them about World War II. I’ve always found that was a very interesting way of viewing the Cold War through the lens of the “good” war. But anyway. So I guess that gives you a little time to think about how you want to answer that question, too. I’ll ask that one later; I like to conclude with that. Garcia: Okay, cool. Franklin: I’m just foreshadowing, I guess, for you now. Garcia: All right. I’ll use part of my brain to think about that. 0:36:45 Franklin: I wanted to ask you about, so you had been working out at PFP during the Chernobyl incident. Garcia: Oh, I was at PUREX then. Franklin: PUREX, sorry, okay. Garcia: Which has its own story. Franklin: You were out on Site. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: How did that affect Hanford, and how did that affect the community? 0:37:04 Garcia: That was one factor in the shutting down N. Because they were similar, but not identical. Though, somehow, I understand that the Russians would pull the fuel from the top. [LAUGHTER] Maybe I’m wrong. But at B and all the other reactors, N, they would push the fuel out the back. It would fall in a big water basin. So, when that problem erupted, literally, they said, well, you know, these are too similar. They had shut it down to do some maintenance—long-term maintenance, and then they never started it up again. That was a ripple effect from Chernobyl. 0:37:47 When I was at PUREX, we had these about half-a-meter square tables. They were about a meter off the ground and had plastic coating on them. There were a couple dozen of those. So we would take a technical smear that was on this funny paper. And then you would check it with your instrument. And my manager said, well, when you’re outside doing that routine, be sure you check all those tables, because Chernobyl fallout is predicted to come this way. I never found any. The tables were really there for stuff coming out of the PUREX stack. But I never found anything from Chernobyl. That only lasted a few weeks, and then we never did that again. 0:38:37 Franklin: Was it a flashpoint in how people viewed Hanford? Garcia: Not that I recall. Most people were there to do their job, and they just wanted to get through the day, through the year, through their career. It never—there may have been other parts of the community that really got excited about Chernobyl and how Hanford was similar, but not to my knowledge. Franklin: Hmm. Were there any events or incidences that happened at Hanford while you were working out there that stand out to you? Garcia: Hanford-wise? Franklin: Yeah. 0:39:26 Garcia: There were so many. Where to—[LAUGHTER] What to choose? Not so much. I think one—it wasn’t Hanford-related but it was another turning point. When the Russians shot down that Korean airplane that had wandered into their airspace. That gave me a little more resolve and understanding why all of this had to be, like it or not. I guess, just shutting down PFP, shutting down PUREX and the last reactor, N. Those were big dominoes that fell. But I knew, being higher on the seniority list and having a job that was pretty necessary that it wasn’t going to affect me. Franklin: What—oh, sorry. 0:40:25 Garcia: Oh, when people would get laid off from other crafts, it did bother me. You know, people that you knew or just remotely knew. I knew that their lives were going to be turned upside-down. And it bothered me. Franklin: Was there a general feeling of anxiety during the shut down or the change, the switch from production to clean up? 0:40:49 Garcia: Yeah, because you didn’t know what to expect. When it was in production days, you know, you had this goal to make as much plutonium as you could. But after that was over, the clean up days, it was a rollercoaster. You didn’t know what to expect from one day, one month, one year to the next. And maybe they didn’t either. If the funding was different from year to year. You just didn’t exactly know what to do or what they expected. So, yeah, that was—there was a change. And I used to tell people, you know, it was more fun making bombs than it was cleaning up. Because the regs were all different, the goals were all different. But you knew in the button production days that, yeah, that was what you were here for, whether you agreed or disagreed or not. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of like, where to start? Right? Like, where do you—spent 40 years making this big mess. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: 45 years. 0:42:02 Garcia: They’ve still got a ways to go. I’m not sure how the Vit Plant’s going to turn out. I mean, there’s three or four big, huge buildings, 88 feet tall, 90 feet long, four, five feet of concrete where the chemical separations was done. Like PUREX, B and T Plant. Good luck! Franklin: Well, and you heard about the recent teardown of PFP, right? A building you worked at, where they found contamination well outside—not high levels—but contamination well outside the projected footprint of where it would be. 0:42:46 Garcia: I was a little angry and a little disappointed, and I just couldn’t understand why they could take down a plutonium facility out in the open air. Maybe they could’ve put a big tent over it or something. Whoever sees this, yeah. [LAUGHTER] You’re crazy! You know, they did the best they could, I guess. They would put blue goo on it to hold the contamination down. They would use big water cannons to water it down. And it just got away from them because of production and money pressure, in my way of thinking. When they first started tearing it down, I was long gone, because I could see the handwriting n the wall. They thought they could turn it into another Rocky Flats. And that’s pretty much how they did Rocky Flats, which-- Franklin: What would that involve? Sorry, I’m not— 0:43:47 Garcia: You know, the blue goo, the water cannons, and just a big crane with a great big chomping device. Chomp down the walls, the pipes, anything inside, and then put it in these big, long semi, like a semi trailer-size containers, and then take that to the ERDF place and put it in the ground. And I think they pretty much did something similar at Rocky Flats, and that was a real small facility compared to Hanford. I think Rocky Flats was about the size of the 300 Area. They got that done quickly but maybe not so successfully. So a lot of those guys, managers and workers, came to Hanford from Rocky when the things wound down, and they thought they could do the same thing here as they did there. And it was just a different way of thinking. Everything was just too different to fit into their mold. So yeah. 0:44:55 It was not a good idea. It really makes me sad. Especially for those workers that inhaled it. My goal always was on any job, that was a failure point to me, if anyone got internal deposition. It happened a couple times and I felt awful for months. It does damage to your body. There’s ways to get it out, but I just didn’t want to look that person in the eye and say, I’m sorry, but— 0:45:27 There for a while, the training philosophy was a rem is a rem—a rem is a measurement of radiation. And whether it’s inside your body or goes through you, like an x-ray or a gamma ray or neutrons. Any body, having it in your body is a different mindset. Even though they can give you the DTPA shot and get most of it out of you, or you can drink a lot of beer and get a lot of it out of you. Just, that’s a different way of thinking. Franklin: Is there something special about beer? Or it’s just a fluid? Garcia: Diuretic. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah. 0:46:12 Garcia: When I first got to PFP as an HPT, we had a meeting with the dosimetry boss and he said, everybody in here has plutonium in them. Well, yeah, that’s the first name of the place, Plutonium Finishing Plant. So it wasn’t a surprise, but it was just another reality check. Because you know you go into a room, do a job, even if the cam didn’t go off, there’s still some in there. Your instruments are only so sensitive. Otherwise, you could make them more sensitive but they’d be useless. You might say something is clean, but it might be just below the threshold. So he told us different ways to avoid a problem. 0:47:01 But, yeah, I’m—They would give us a lung count, these sensitive devices, sensors on your chest or you’d lean up against the sensors. And then the real fun was your annual bioassay. [LAUGHTER] They’d drop this kit of five, six bottles, and you would urinate in them and turn them in in a few days. And if things really went bad, the fecal sample kit. I only had to do that a couple times. But, you know, they boil it down, cook it down, and then use really sensitive instruments to count how much you encountered. But, yeah. [LAUGHTER] I’d almost forgotten about those things! Franklin: We have a couple examples of those, unused in our collection. Garcia: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, when we do exhibitions or bring them out, they always get a—people will be like, oh yeah! I forgot about that thing. 0:48:00 Garcia: Yeah, I’m sure. You kind of have to delete some of your files. And then those people that had the problem at PFP, they had to do that. The urine and the fecal. But we’ll see, we’ll see, who reaps the whirlwind. That’s from some classic book. And I’m afraid some of the workers are going to pay the price. Because I’ve read articles and books about workers from Oak Ridge and other places. The guy’s got a table full of medicine, and most of it’s related to his work in the nuclear industry. So some of these guys, as bulletproof as they may think they are, they will, down the road, something’s going to give. And I feel bad about that. 0:48:54 Franklin: Yeah. Yes. Could you describe the ways in which security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Garcia: The rooms were locked up for the most part. You know, all the gates and fences and stuff, you had to fill out a questionnaire every five years or at random. They’d call your boss up, say, send so-and-so over. You had to give another drug screening sample. Or fill out the questionnaire, or just, if somebody had run into a security problem, they would ask you what kind of person is this? Has he ever said anything threatening to the country or to the plant? 0:49:42 And it wasn’t with the FBI, but I had some problems in my younger years and I sought counseling and I didn’t disclose that. Because I knew what they would do, what they would think. So somehow or another I thought they found out. [LAUGHTER] And they put me in this little room, and, yeah. That was another tough hour. But nothing came of it, but I told them, I said, I understand why you think this, but there’s a long line of people that have marital problems, psychological problems, drug and alcohol problems that you should worry about more than me. I was just, you know. I had some emotional issues. I never heard any more about it. After I signed the papers and got out of that little tiny room, I never heard any more about it. 0:50:41 But, yeah, the security was always on your mind. People, unless you were another Hanford person, you really didn’t talk to other people much about it. I know one of my first bosses when we first started up PFP, he said, don’t say anything. It was like the World War II days, almost. So I got on a bus to come to PFP, the whole bus was talking about it. That had just worn off; they didn’t understand the significance from the old days. So that was okay. 0:51:17 Franklin: Were there any old-timers there when you started work? Garcia: A few. A few that had worked at the reactors. I don’t think anybody from the World War II days was still around. They’d either retired or died. But I had a couple guys I worked with that were pretty close to retirement that had worked at the other reactors in the Cold War days. They had some stories. And if they had a story to tell, I wanted to listen to it. Because they had a vast amount of experience and knowledge. And even if I’d heard the story before, I wanted to hear it again. But for the most part, they kept us away from the old-timers, because they didn’t want us to learn their tricks and their bad habits. They wanted us to be a new generation that followed the procedures, did what our managers said, and weren’t going too cowboy. Later on, we did. But at first they didn’t want their bad habits to rub off on us. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] That’s funny, because I’ve heard a lot of stories, too. I mean, that’s the nature of doing oral history, but, yeah. 0:52:25 Garcia: Did anyone ever tell you about this guy named Don, who was a control room operator at PFP? And a DOE tour came. So Don is sitting there at the console with his feet up, reading the newspaper, which was a no-no, twice. So his manager was leading the tour and he said, Don, what are you doing? Shouldn’t you be paying attention? And he said, you know, if I’m up here calling down valve changes to the floors below in the gloveboxes and the dials are going crazy, you’re losing money. But when things are calm and running smooth and I can read my newspaper, you’re making money. [LAUGHTER] And they left him alone. He was one of those guys, you could call up in the dead of night and say, Don, this is doing that, and that’s doing this, what do we do? And he would know. He probably should’ve been something more than just a nuclear process operator, but he had years of experience and he knew what it was all about. So, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Garcia: He was pretty cool. Franklin: That’s crazy. That’s a good story. So we’re at the last question now. Garcia: Okay. 0:53:36 Franklin: And that is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Garcia: [SIGH] That it was a dangerous job, a crazy job, but a job that could be done safely. For whatever detrimental effects it was to the workers and obviously to the environment. I’m sorry. But I think Hanford was run better than maybe in North Korea or in the Soviet Union. They respected the life and the health and the skills of the workers at Hanford more than at other places. Places, not ever having seen or encountered anybody; I just have that notion. And the legacy that Hanford has left, in terms of all the nuclear weapons, all the contaminated ground and water. I’m sorry it happened, but it had to be done for its own reasons and in its own way. 0:54:45 But I didn’t feel any more patriotic when I was doing it and I don’t feel anymore patriotic about it now. But, yeah, the men and women that worked out there, a lot of them I still remember, still talk to, and they worked hard. It was a dangerous, sometimes crazy job. I don’t want any flowers or trumpets; it was just a job and everybody tried to do it—well, almost everybody tried to do it well and safely. And if we’ve left some problems behind, well, sorry, good luck. That’ll be your thing to handle. Franklin: Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time to come and interview with us today. I really enjoyed your very thoughtful responses. Garcia: Well, thank you. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to say before we turn the camera off? Garcia: No. I think I’ve about said it all. I gave this—I even had some time to give it a lot of thought, and I’ve pretty much said everything I thought of. Franklin: Great. Awesome. Well, thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Site Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 42 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Garcia Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource John Garcia's career at the Hanford Site spanned over 20 years, primarily working as a nuclear process operator at the Plutonium Finishing Plant (PFP) and as a health physics technician (HPT) at various facilities like PUREX, Tank Farms, and the True Retrieval project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/22/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fda60a4b23b135f9cec4ca3f9d2911450.MP3 46de42bb16d7d0fde509dae03f25ad16 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb8a77edfaf1c861bd50b6868dd98dd47.pdf 0dff133268801608f23d7836f0df93ff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Lucas Location The location of the interview Richland, WA Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:41:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor, 300 Area, 117 Building, 105 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Lucas Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource The interview with Jonathan Lucas details his work at Hanford’s N Reactor, describing duties ranging from fuel handling and reactor operations to writing new safety procedures after Chernobyl. He reflects on shift work, increased security in the 1980s, and strong camaraderie among staff, as well as the impact of the reactor’s eventual shutdown Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Department of Energy Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project for the Department of Energy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/4/1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.2001.025.3 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford History Project (HHP) operates under a sub-contract from Hanford Mission Integration Services (HMIS), who are a primary contract for the US Deparment of Energy's curatorial services for the Hanford Site. HHP proudly manages the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection, an artifact and archival collection that documents the Manhattan Project and Cold War history of the Hanford Site (1943-1990). https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8cb143e89916aa0afa68367bf91d52fd.JPG e123c8b06a200ffab7c43b07f6e8ec39 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9dd90cc6aac4bf4dd9bf4487c9e1bdc7.mp4 83fffa719d331b65d485ff782228aed4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John McFadden Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right, my name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John McFadden on September 20, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with John about his father’s experiences and his own experiences living at the towns, the town of Hanford, and then the Manhattan Project and afterward. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? John McFadden: Yes, my name is John McFadden. J-O-H-N. M-C-capital-F-A-D-D-E-N. Franklin: So, let’s start talking about your father. Tell me, where and when was he born? McFadden: My dad was born in 1911 in Ellensburg, Washington. Franklin: Oh, so kind of already a local guy? McFadden: Absolutely. He was--his father-in-law was the sheriff of Kittitas County, and original or very original member of Roslyn, back before Washington was a state. And he was--his father-in-law was actually the sheriff and a judge and a mayor, and all kinds of things in Roslyn. Then after it became a state, he got Roslyn involved in statehood as well as--then he ran as the sheriff of Kittitas County. And he became the sheriff of Kittitas County, and his daughter then married my grandfather, and my father was a product of grandfather and my grandmother. Franklin: Right. Do you remember the gentleman’s name who was the sheriff? McFadden: I certainly do. Isaac Brown. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: He came over from England and started as a miner and became a pretty, kind of a big shot in Roslyn, back in the day. Franklin: Yeah, the history of Roslyn is really, really quite an interesting history in Washington State. McFadden: Yes, yes. Franklin: So, your dad was born in Ellensburg. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: And how does he find his way down to the town of Hanford? McFadden: Oh! Well, okay. His father, my grandfather, was a senior engineer on the Northern Pacific Railroad. And so, he was--he went to work for the Northern Pacific in 1901, as I found out, after starting his career in Mexico. History had it that he went there and worked for Pancho Villa. I’ve since proven, no, that’s just another McFadden lore. Anyway, he came to Ellensburg with the Northern Pacific Railway, met and married my grandmother, and then was transferred to Pasco. So, he was a railroader in Pasco from about 1914 or so, till his death in 1942. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So that’s how Dad got there. Franklin: Down to the Tri-Cities area. McFadden: Yes, yes, to Pasco. And Dad went, then, to Washington State College and graduated in 1936 with a degree in education. Went to work as a high school teacher, history teacher and coach and principal of Hover High School in the old town of Hover. Franklin: Oh! Yeah, kind of south of Finley. McFadden: Hover-Finley, yup. Franklin: We actually, I think a year ago, we interviewed a group of brothers in their 90s who grew up in Hover. Because, you know, you probably know, Hover was covered by the dam, by either McNary or Ice Harbor, it covered--oh, that’s really interesting, neat. McFadden: Yeah, correct. Franklin: Okay, so he’s down in Hover. McFadden: Right. And then in 1940, he had an opportunity to go to Hanford and he became what I have heard; I can’t--who knows?--the youngest superintendent in the state of Washington. I believe it was 26, if I remember correctly. So, he was then superintendent of schools at Hover from 1940 through ‘42 or ‘43. I’m-- Franklin: Sorry, Hover or Hanford? McFadden: Oh, Hanford. I’m sorry, yes, Hanford. Yeah, I get all the Hs mixed up. Franklin: No, its no problem. They’re pretty close geographically-- McFadden. And historically. None of them are there. So yeah that’s how he got there. Franklin: Did your father ever talk about life at Hanford and what it was like and what kind of town? McFadden: No. Not really. Mom talked every now and then. Franklin: Oh, yeah, sorry, let’s go back. When did your father marry your mother? McFadden: I believe that was 1937. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: She was a graduate of Central--no, that would be--yeah, Central Washington Normal Teachers College. Franklin: Teachers College, yup. And she’s from Ellensburg as well? McFadden: No. She’s from Walla Walla. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: Yeah. And her father was the resident manager of Pacific Power and Light Company in Walla Walla. And Dad courted her on a friend’s motorcycle. Franklin: Oh, wow. McFadden: Which didn’t go over well with the country club head of Pacific Power and Light, you know. When a railroad engineer’s son would call on his daughter on a motorcycle. Franklin: Yeah, I bet not. McFadden: [LAUGHTER] Anyway, so-- Franklin: So, she moved, then, with him to Hover and then to Hanford. McFadden: Yes. Franklin: But so she expressed history or-- McFadden: Yes. Franklin: Can you kind of relate some of that to us? McFadden: She loved it there. Had lots of friends in the grange. Was not able to continue teaching because it would take away a teaching job from a man. And her job was to stay home and have kids, I guess. But, yeah, she loved the friendship of the community. Everybody was involved. I have--she saved--Dad saved very little--but she saved like programs and so on that they’d put on in the high school or the grange, and this group would sing, and Mrs. So-and-so would bring cookies and they’d--yeah, it was that kind of a community, White Bluffs and Hanford and so on. As I understand from Mom, yes. Yeah. Franklin: And--oh, shoot. I just lost my question. Keep going and hopefully my question will-- McFadden: Oh. So, yeah, and there of course was no doctor in Hanford. So, I was born in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, which was exactly two blocks from my father’s home that he grew up in Pasco. And I think the total--well, I still have the total bill. It was like $6.96 for the room and my--all of those things. So, I wasn’t actually technically born in the town of Hanford, but everybody in the town of Hanford thought I was, because there weren’t-- Franklin: Well, I mean--yeah. McFadden: Yeah. But they spoke a lot of the camaraderie, and I saw that in later years when I would find, after my dad moved on from that and all of those places, that there would be people who were working for his school district who had been residents in White Bluffs or at Hanford or, in other words, still a community connection, still. Franklin: Where was your parents’ house in the town of Hanford? Do you know? Have you ever bene out to see it, or do you know where it is on the map? McFadden: I have found it on the map, because of the grange insurance always put coordinates on the map. I have all of the grange information that my mother collected. So I actually had the coordinates, so I went into the old declassified maps of Hanford-White Bluffs and that entire reservation area, and was actually able to find my mother and father’s name and where it was. And then using the coordinates, came close. But you know, some of the coordinates are different today than they were at that time. Franklin: Sure. What were your mother and father’s names? McFadden: Oh. My father was Charles B. McFadden. He went by CB. And my mother was Eileen McFadden. Yeah. Franklin: And so then, the big defining event of Hanford, of the whole site, is the eviction. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: Did your parents--what do you know about the eviction on you and your parents? McFadden: Well, my father really never spoke about it. My mother told stories of, they were given like two weeks or three weeks of a notice and had to pack up and leave. That’s my childhood recollection of what she said. Dad--you know, it’s very interesting, he talked a lot about Hover and before. And he talked a lot about Hanford until. And it was like, we don’t talk about that, because--I just don’t know. Franklin: Sure. Do you think that it affected him? You know, emotionally, or--? McFadden: Yes. Yes, I--yes, I do. It was something he loved, being in that community. And he loved his job there. And he was working very hard to get the high school and the Hanford schools accredited. He wrote letters to Pearl Wanamaker, who was the superintendent of public instruction at the time. I have letters going from my father to her and then back from her to my father, saying, there isn’t enough population and student numbers to accredit your schools at this time. But keep trying. By the way, you’ve got a tremendous library and history program there. But it never came to fruition in my dad’s time, and I have a feeling that that bothered him till the end of his days. Franklin: What was so important about getting the schools accredited? Do you know? McFadden: I believe that it had to do with federal monies, that if your school was accredited, then you could get more matching funds from the state to improve programs and to do those. And I believe that was his driving force. Later on, that became an important part of the next phase of his life after that. Franklin: And when were you born? McFadden: I was born in 1942. Franklin; What day and-- McFadden: Well, I’m old. Okay, no. April the 11th, 1942. Yeah. Franklin: So you were pretty eleven--sorry, I’m writing the word eleven--the number eleven while I’m trying to talk. So, you were pretty young. McFadden: Yeah, absolutely. I have no personal memories at all of Hanford. I have pictures of where we lived at the time when we came back, and Dad worked for DuPont in the Hanford Project. Franklin: Yes, so let’s talk about that, because I’ve heard of employees--I’ve heard of former residents going back for DuPont, and I just--it’s hard to imagine how different that must’ve been for people that lived out there to watch that transformation, and to play a part in its transformation. McFadden: Yeah, I always had the feeling that Dad did that as his part of the war effort. You know, they were at war and for some medical reasons and also because of his size, he kept being turned down for service. Franklin: Too small? Too tall? McFadden: No, he was six-six and weighed about 240 pounds. Franklin; Oh, wow, that is tall. McFadden: So, they couldn’t fit him into a uniform. They said, oh, wow. Well. And it really bothered him. As a matter of fact, later on, when I went into the service, he pulled me aside and he said, I’m really proud. You’re doing something that I wasn’t able to do, son. So, I took it, that moment, that that bothered him big time. So, he went back to do, I think--I feel--his part for the defense of our country. Franklin: And what was his job at Hanford? McFadden: The best I can--well, I know for a fact, he was an investigator. Franklin: For DuPont. McFadden: For DuPont. He went to work for DuPont in, that would’ve been June of 1943. And he worked for them through September of 1944 when he went to Moses Lake, population 360, to become superintendent of schools there. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, before the Cold War, Moses Lake was a pretty sparsely-- McFadden: I do have memories of that. Franklin: Wow. I was just there at a conference last summer, and, yeah, it’s an interesting little spot. What was he investigating? People? Like a police investigator? McFadden: No, from what I’ve been able to ascertain, first off, he never talked about it. Ever. Sworn to secrecy. That’s, oh! Franklin: Right. Classified. McFadden: Oh! You don’t talk about that, son. But he’d tell me something that was really interesting. He said, well, I’ll just put it this way. Spies don’t work a 40-hour week, so neither does your father. [LAUGHTER] Okay? Okay? Franklin: That’s a really great quote. McFadden: Yeah. That’s what I was told. So I take that to mean he was checking on employees, investigating, are you talking on the side, do you---those kind of things. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where did your family live during this time where your father worked for DuPont? McFadden: We lived in Riverview Homes in Pasco. It was commonly known, the housing project. Franklin: Oh! That’s right. Before the camera started, you mentioned that your father was involved in trying to get the Pasco Naval training at the town of Hanford. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: Right? I’d like to hear more about that. McFadden: Oh! Well, I discovered letters--as I mentioned before, my mother never threw anything away. She used mucilage glue and glued everything to pages. Franklin: Well, as an archivist I love the first part of that, and hate the second part of that. McFadden: Yeah, well, you should try to tear some of them out. Franklin: We just don’t--yeah, it’s the worst stuff and it browns stuff. McFadden: Yeah. Franklin: Well, that’s how we learn. McFadden: Yeah, no, that’s true. And gotta love my mother, you know? Franklin: She was here. McFadden; Well, no, that’s true. Yes, he was involved at writing to the naval reserve in Seattle, to try to arrange to set up a pilot training program in and around Hanford and White Bluffs, because of the terrain and the masses of--there was a lot of land and very few population centers and so on. So I have correspondence back and forth between them, and the last one stating that, while there are other things involved--this is the one that I’d mentioned earlier. So he was always concerned about helping his high school students get careers and gainful employment whether during the war years or even till he passed on. Franklin: Right, I mean, that would bring a lot of jobs. Because you would not only have the jobs but also the economy service built around that. McFadden: And there might have been an ulterior motive to get more students into his high schools and schools so that they could get accredited. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sadly, the military had bigger designs. But Pasco, though, if memory serves me right, Pasco did become a major naval training center-- McFadden: They did. Franklin: --for the Pacific and one of the largest railroad depots in the United States. McFadden: That is correct. I have lots of great childhood memories going down to the roundhouse in Pasco and all those kinds of things with Grandpa and with--yeah, anyway. Franklin: What did your mother do during the war? McFadden: Ah, well, okay. She was a housewife. She also would substitute teach in the schools. She was very involved in the Eastern Star and the grange. Whatever there was to do, my mother had to, apparently, have a finger in it. Franklin: Really? McFadden: Yup. [female off-camera] She watched airplanes constantly. McFadden: Oh, yeah. She did, yes. Okay. Franklin: Oh, okay. Thank you. McFadden: Our little time in Acosta, she would take me down to the beach, and she was a spotter for the government. So she would sit in a spotting shack with me and look at airplanes. And she had--I still have somewhere; I can’t find them--all of the silhouettes of the airplanes that she would have to-- Franklin: Right, the Japanese bombers and-- McFadden: Correct, correct. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So, she did that for--yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s really cool. So, you lived in the Riverview Homes in Pasco until ‘44 when your family moved up to Moses Lake. McFadden: Moses Lake, yes. Franklin: So, what do you--I mean, you were really young, but what do you--what are your memories of wartime Pasco, if any? Because I imagine that must’ve been a bustling, bustling place. McFadden: Well, what I remember is that for the most part, my great-uncle John and my uncle Norm involved all of the little boy cousins at going to the roundhouse and talking to all the people coming in. I do remember trains coming into the Pasco station and going down with Mom in my little buggy. We’d watch, like, workers come in. I don’t know if that had anything to do with my dad’s job. I don’t know that. But they would bring them in by the trainload and then of course, bus them or whatever they did, to--yeah. But other than that, no. My memories really start in Moses Lake. Franklin: Sure, I mean, that makes sense, time-wise. McFadden: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: So how long did your family stay in Moses Lake? McFadden: We moved there in 1944 and we moved out in 1956. Franklin: Oh okay. McFadden: So Dad was superintendent of schools there from 1944 through 1956. Franklin: That, I imagine--was that a major period of change for Moses Lake? McFadden: Yes. Franklin: Because when was--the air base was constructed somewhere-- McFadden: Well, yeah, the air base was there, I know for a fact, in 1942. It stayed there--I don’t recall. We were gone when it was finally shut. But it was at first, Moses Lake Army Airfield. I do remember that. And then there was the Ephrata Army Airfield. Yeah, when we moved to Moses Lake, I know there were 360 people. And it had just been changed, the town’s name, from Nepal or Neppel to Moses Lake. And when we moved from Moses Lake in 1956, there were 12,900 people there. And that didn’t include the air base. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So when we moved there, there was one school for the grade school and high school. When we left, there were all kinds of junior highs and new high schools and all kinds of things. Franklin: Must’ve been pretty exciting for your father to try to just keep things going. Or you know. During that period of growth like that. McFadden: Yes, yes, yes. And that’s also where I learned that the Japanese internment camps, during World War II? Not all Japanese went to internment camps. Franklin: Yeah. McFadden: There were many who came to Moses Lake, Quincy. So, I’m from Bainbridge Island and so forth. And they could work on the farms in the agriculture there. So yeah. Franklin: Yeah, actually, earlier this week, we interviewed the Yamauchi family, who is from Pasco. The Columbia River was the dividing line for Executive Order 9066. Part of the family was interned, but part of the family was allowed to stay in Pasco. Which is really something. Just an amazing history. McFadden: Yeah. I have found some correspondence between Japanese students that my father had in Moses Lake. Where they, after the war was over, they sent greetings to my father and my mother for all of the--for being congenial and friends and so on during that time. And I’m trying to contact those families and make sure they get the actual letters. Because I think that’s important. It’s a fond memory for me, but it’s personal for them. So, I’m in the process of trying to do that. Franklin: Oh, that’s really wonderful. How old were you when you first remember learning about Hanford and what your father had been a part of? McFadden: Well, what my father had been a part of, probably 60 years old. What my father was a part of. My mother’s tales started at early childhood. Yes, yeah. But what my father actually did--he always spoke highly of Hanford, Hanford High School, all of those parts. But he never said anything about DuPont and those times. Franklin: Well, how old were you when you found out about the Hanford Engineering Works and the atomic bomb--that your father was connected with the work to build the bomb? McFadden: Well, I think, by inference, I was probably in my 40s. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: Okay? As far as knowing for real, my research that I’ve done lately. We always knew that Hanford--I mean, I always had the information that that’s what they were doing there, building that bomb, making those things. So I knew that he had to have something to do with it somehow. Because I had a feeling that I know he did work there, but I didn’t know anything about what he did. Never said a word. So, yeah. Franklin: Wow, wow. McFadden: I’m sure he contributed to the airplane. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so, because that came in June or July or ‘44. McFadden: Yes, yeah. Day’s Pay. Franklin: Yes. In fact, the son of the pilot of that is coming next week. McFadden: Oh, wow. Franklin: To town to take a tour and stuff like that. Yeah, it’s really quite a busy few weeks around here. McFadden: Well, yeah, yeah, that’s great. Franklin: It just seems always to happen, too, around the--because we’re getting close to the anniversary of the startup of B Reactor, and all of those things. McFadden: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Did your father keep--did your family keep in touch with anybody from the old town fo Hanford? From the town itself, not the McFadden: Ah, yes. Yes, they did. And once again, here’s where you learn later in life. I graduated from a school called Connell High School, okay, which is-- Franklin: Right. McFadden: Yeah, just down the road. Franklin: miles-ish? McFadden: Yeah, from Pasco. Across from Ringgold and that way. Franklin: Still kind of in the area. McFadden: Yes. And what I learned is that Dad stayed in touch with several families from before those times. But I didn’t really understand that until I started doing research and, wow, this name is familiar. You’re kidding me! Franklin: Do you remember the names? McFadden: Some, yes. One is the Weber family. Another is the Heideman family. And then there was the Purser family, and they lived in Ringgold. Franlkin: Oh, right, across the-- McFadden: across the river, mm-hmm, yes. And see if there’s anymore. Well, then there was the Collie family. And I think you have an interview with one of the Collies. Franklin: Do we? McFadden: Mm-hmm, or maybe it’s in another site. But yeah, the Collies were early settlers around here as well. They had properties out in Hanford, they lived out there. Yeah. So. Franklin: Did your father ever go to the Hanford-White Bluffs reunion? McFadden: One. Franklin: One. McFadden: Yeah. Franklin: Which one? McFadden: Well--okay. It was the one, it had to have been held in the ‘70s sometime. AN they were allowed back on the reservation. Franklin: Was that the first time that that ever happened? McFadden: That was the first time they were ever back. Franklin: So I think that was the ‘68 reunion, because we have a lot of pictures from that reunion from Harry Anderson, who helped lead those with Annette Heriford. So, I think that’s ‘68, if I’m-- McFadden: No. That could absolutely be true. But I know Mom and Dad talked about that forever. Franklin: Really? McFadden: Oh, yeah. They said they got to go back on the reservation and-- Franklin: When we get back to my office, remind me to show you some photos of that, and maybe-- McFadden: Okay. Franklin: It’d be really neat, maybe if somehow, you know, your parents were in one of these photos. McFadden: Oh, that’d be great. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: That’d be superb. Franklin: And I believe they had that reunion in Richland, and then, yeah, they bussed them out to the site. McFadden: yeah, yeah. Franklin: Great. Oh, that’s really--and so you, after Moses Lake, I’m inferring, but you moved to Connell. McFadden: Well, actually, we spent two years in Tacoma. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: And then we moved back to Connell, yes. Franklin: And then you ended up going to WSU. McFadden: Go Cougs! Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Go Cougs! McFadden: Yeah. Yeah, I did. Franklin: Yeah, it’s a wonderful place. McFadden: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: And then, did you ever come back to the area at all? The Tri-Cities, Hanford area? McFadden: To live, or--? Franklin: Yeah, to live or work. McFadden: Not really, no. No, no, no. I’ve come back many times. I’ve taken all the tours at Hanford and done that. But as a matter of fact, as I mentioned to you earlier, I went on one of the very first pre-Hanford tours. And actually got to stand and look at my father’s high school, the shell that’s left. And I don’t know if I should say this out loud, ubt they let me go ahead of the fence so that I could--you know. Franklin: Well, every now and then for special folks--like we had Dick Groves, the grandson of Leslie Groves here. McFadden: Oh, sure. Franklin: A couple months ago and they took him all over the place. Because he’s--you know. Because--you know. When you’re the grandson of Leslie Groves. McFadden: yeah, hey! When you have a park named after you--[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, exactly. That tends to open a few doors, literally. Well, that’s great. Yeah, it’s a wonderful tour. Where did your parents end up settling and staying? McFadden: Oh! Okay. They actually ended up in Brush Prairie, Washington. Franklin: Where is that? McFadden: That’s outside of Vancouver, Washington. Dad finished out his career in a town called Stevenson, Washington, which is up the Columbia Gorge. He retired there. And Mom went back to work as a special education teacher. And so she finished out her 30-year career. Then they retired and motorhomed and did the good life and Dad passed away in ‘82, and Mom passed on in ‘84. Franklin: Oh, wow. McFadden: So, yeah. But they ended up in Brush Prairie. Franklin: Well that’s really cool. So your father, at the Hanford Engineering Works for DuPont, from what you gather, is part of the security apparatus? McFadden: Correct. His official title that I can--is investigator. Yes. He was there on the reservation and we know where his office was. Franklin: Where was that? McFadden: Well, it was on a map. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: So what I’ve done is I’ve taken the Google map that they have and you can still see all the outlines of things on that map. Franklin: yeah, are you talking about the construction camp? McFadden: Yes, mm-hmm, and the headquarters and that. So then I have another map that was done back in--that showed the actual what it was and give the, like the bus stops and number and that. So I’ve imposed the two over each other and it had the investigative offices, so I knew that’s where he must’ve worked out of. Franklin: Did your father ever bring you on Site? McFadden: No. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: Not that I--no. No. Franklin: And let’s see here. I think that’s most of my questions. What would you like--what do you think your parents would want future generations to know about living at Hanford before the project and kind of living through the Manhattan Project and the transformation of this area? McFadden: Well, I--wow, that’s a great question. I think that they would want young people today to know that they were citizens and people of courage who had huge convictions, not always agreeing, but had convictions that America was the best place in the world you could be or live and had given them and their families tremendous opportunities to flourish and to do what they chose to do with their lives. And that the Hanford Project was somewhat unfair to those citizens who had gone to this rock-scrabble land next to a river and made it into a beautiful orchard country and agriculture and built themselves their own irrigation system before that was really a big deal. And then they came in, and they were just told to leave, basically, and paid peanuts for what they had, their hard work, and their camaraderie and community and all that, had built these towns. And it was gone. And with really very little notice. And really very little consequence, except this is what is going to happen. And they’d like to know that it was part of a success and helped end a war. And that it was part of the patriotic duties that we’ve done to keep our country free. I think that’s what they’d like to have people remember, and that it was a hard-working group of people. It was a time when everybody came together. Yeah. So. Franklin: Great. That reminded me, when you talked about when people were removed, did your parents, do you know anything about the compensation that the government paid to your parents? McFadden: I do not Franklin: Okay. McFadden: No. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: Except Mom said it was paltry. Franklin: Yeah, that’s seems to be the prevailing--from what we’ve seen-- McFadden: But what “paltry” means, I don’t know. Franklin: What we’ve seen from the financial documents was that it was pretty wide-ranging, but some of the valuations were pretty low. McFadden: Yeah. Well, I got a kick out the history of the Bruggemans: We ain’t going. And so they had to keep sending--you will be gone. But, yeah, yeah. So. Franklin: Yeah, no, so many great stories to tell out there. Well, John, thank you so much. McFadden: Oh! It’s my pleasure and thank you for the opportunity to speak for my folks. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Tom, did you have any questions? Tom Hungate: No. Franklin: Okay, great, well, thanks. McFadden: Thank you! Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John McFadden Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Du Pont Company Pasco (Wash.) Description An account of the resource John McFadden's father, Charles, was the superintendent of the Hanford (Wash.) school district and later an investigator workig for the Du Pont Company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/20/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e1b99b59b66ae39b01a6307c5306428.JPG 885b0ad06a7807c10d6ce80f42a0e019 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa232d0c77186ed1562def6a34ee0f2aa.mp4 e24eab87fe4af71c6f5828c8dd18fed8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Slaughter Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Camera operator: You are recording. Robert Franklin: All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Slaughter on February 28, 2018. The interview is being conducted at The Brookstone in Kennewick, Washington. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record can you state and spell your full name for us? John Slaughter: John H. Slaughter. J-O-H-N. H. S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, John. Tell me how and why you came to the area. Slaughter: I was working with the Snoqualmie National Forest. We ran into some things—this is another—why don’t I just give you the background— Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: --and you can do whatever it is you want to do. Franklin: Sure. Slaughter: I graduated from Tennessee State University, and I applied for a job working for the Snoqualmie National Forest. And I was hired. So I worked for about five years for the Snoqualmie National Forest. And what caused me to want to get away, I had a bigot for a boss. He was forever talking about I had a white man’s job. Franklin: Did he actually say that to you? Slaughter: Yes! Yes. Franklin: On one occasion, or more than one occasion? Slaughter: Oh, all the time. All the time. So I decided, well—excuse me—I’m going to kill that son of a bitch. And I had set about how I could kill him and get away with it. I could not do that. There’s no way I could do that and get away with it. Unless I did something to provoke him. See, he did a lot of things to provoke me. So I decided—oh, right out—Naches, at the Naches Ranger Station, there, that’s where I lived. We had about 14 houses, cabins I mean, there. And that’s where I stayed. So we had to—I didn’t have a car. That’s about 35 miles from Yakima, where some civilization was. Some people were very, very kind to us. They knew the situation. See, I accepted the job, because I had—by the time I got that job, I had three kids. So hard times. So whenever they said, you’re hired, I just struck out and got on the train with my family and came out here. The people saw what the problem that I had, and many of them helped us out. Every time they had to go to Yakima or anyplace shopping, they’d stop by our cabin and ask, anything you want me to bring you, you want to go shopping with me? That kind of thing. Some were the other kind, but the vast majority of them, of 14 families, probably about two of them were bigots. Of course, that didn’t bother me. So I had to work to get two full paydays enough to go buy an old used car so that I could function. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: We’d go to town, my wife needed her hair done. Well, we didn’t know anybody that did black people’s hair. In fact, we didn’t know anybody from Yakima. [LAUGHTER] The point is, we met Herb Jones, a fella. He was—we would go to see one another. He lived in Yakima and I lived out in the woods there. So I got to know Herb. There was an organization called CORE. He became the president of CORE, and so complaining about my situation, he suggested that I apply at the Atomic Energy Commission. And I did. Well, the first answer, they said they didn’t have any meaningful work to suit my talents. [LAUGHTER] That’s a way of saying go fly a kite. But after a year, complete—a whole year had passed by, I received a letter from the personnel at the Atomic Energy Commission here at Hanford, asking if I was still interested in a position there. And I just jumped for joy. In the first place, I got paid more money and they didn’t have the same level of—I didn’t have anybody trying to beat me down, trying to bend me over, trying to force me to do something to give them an excuse to fire me. Franklin: That’s what your boss at the forest service would try to do? Slaughter: Yeah, Melanie. Yeah, he was. So, I couldn’t figure out a way to kill him. So I just—I just lived with it. He was this—the headquarters for Snoqualmie National Forest was on 2nd Avenue in Seattle. So I’d have to live—where we lived out in the woods, and, let’s see. I don’t know if I’m telling this in the right sequence or not, but the point is that he tried to—Melanie tried to convince the people to fire me because I didn’t know what I was doing. He wouldn’t give me credit for knowing anything. And it did rattle me quite a bit, but they wouldn’t fire me. Snoqualmie—the government would not fire me. Come to find out, Melanie, he was a guy from close to my hometown, Chattanooga, Tennessee. He used to relate some areas that I knew about. Anyway, after I went for the interview, and of course, I had to wait a long time because it was working for the Atomic Energy Commission, you had to have a security clearance. That was no problem. But when they hired me, they gave me the dates and the money that I’d make and what-have-you. And I had a problem of trying to find a place for my family. So by this time, Herb Jones, he was head of CORE in Richland, Washington. So they put me up for a couple of nights while I looked for a place for my family. I heard them talking. They had meetings all the time. I heard them talking, saying, well, we’ve got to find somebody who’ll go move over into Kennewick. And voila. I’ll go! [LAUGHTER] Seriously. I said, I will. Well, they found us—they located a situation where a man school teacher was—he was having problems with his superiors and what-have-you. I don’t know whether he did it to be vindictive or not, but I got with this man who was going to move out of the area anyway. So I signed a lease, six-month lease for his house on W 6th Avenue, pretty close to 395. I started hearing all the rumors and all of the forebodings from people, saying, be careful. So what I did—I’ma tell you the truth. I had a station wagon, and so when I moved in, moved into that house—it was a nice house—I systematically brought stuff out of my station wagon and put it in the house. And the last thing I did that night, I brought my—I had a target pistol, a .22. But also, some of the activities that I engaged in when I was living at the ranger station was go hunting and fishing. I had to learn to hunt and fish if I was going to be a part of that society. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: And I did. And I shot—the first time I went hunting, I shot a deer. So I had a rifle, a .30-06 rifle. I made sure that the whole neighborhood saw me bring my rifle into the house. Because I had been conditioned that I’m not going to take too much of this. So I was conditioned to that. Whenever I needed to. It just so happens—I don’t know, I’m pretty sure nobody was afraid of me—but I wanted to let people know my disposition. I was for real. And I said, anybody walk up on this—you just walk up on this lawn, I’m going to shoot him. Well, nobody walked up on the lawn. There were a lot of whispering around in the neighborhood, what-have-you. And this one lady, I think it’s this lady who lives here now. She had two daughters, but she didn’t want her daughters to get to know my daughter. So, we did like I always do. I just treat them like they’re not even around. See, one thing I learned, people cannot stand to be ignored. If you ignore—that’s how you get to people. So, if I transacted my business just as if I was the only person in Kennewick. But suddenly, there was an outpouring of welcome to me. The ministers, I got invited to a lot of churches, I got invited to different civic organizations and I was a Kennewick Jaycee. I remember that. And of course there was the other kind, too, because I was just leasing that house. And I’ll skip the part where I moved out of that man’s house and into a duplex in Richland. I stayed there one year, and decided that, well, I needed to have a house. So, I got enough money for a down payment. It was at 7404 W Yellowstone. It wasn’t actually in the City of Kennewick, but it was close enough for the purpose. There was a vacant lot next to lot that that house was on that I was trying to buy. Because I wanted to build a bigger house. And they had for sale signs on that lot. I went to the appropriate place to find out who owned it, and I wanted to buy it. He says—I told him who I was. And he said, I know who you are, John Slaughter, but I’m not going to sell you my lot. And he did not. So I just lived in that house until—well, I stayed there, and I was working, and I was doing very, very, very, very good. I had to prove to myself that I was good enough to be an engineer, because everybody around me did not see me as being qualified to do anything. Franklin: Um—oh, sorry, go ahead. Slaughter: Well, I could go on. Oh! When the time came to close on the house—and I’m there right now, we’re about to close on the house that I own. [LAUGHTER] That’s why I’m here. We got together on a whole lot of paper and what-have-you. And a document fell out of the bundle of papers that the guy had. It was a—I don’t know what they call it, a promise that you would not sell to a black person. I actually saw that, that was in that. But the one guy, they had been talking, he said, throw it away. So they picked it up. But they couldn’t get it up fast enough for me so that I could not see what that was. That was a covenant. I actually picked up that covenant and gave it back to him. That you don’t—and I was able to buy the—Incidentally, probably the reason it was so easy for me was that was during the time that the federal government was cracking down on these kind of covenants. Franklin: Oh. Do you remember around what year that was? Slaughter: 1965. Franklin: 1965. Why do you think the realtor was so willing to break the covenant? Slaughter: Because— [ALARM SOUNDING] Franklin: Oh, my goodness. [VIDEO CUTS] Slaughter: --where we were living. That’s how we got along. Maybe when people saw my weapons, they decided they wouldn’t raise any [inaudible]. I didn’t have any problem. Everybody got to know me, John Slaughter, just like I was some celebrity or something. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Slaughter: Really! And I was so proud to be a part of that civic organization, the Kennewick Jaycees. That we would, during Christmas, the Christmas holidays, we’d do some projects to make money to help some of the people who was not as well-off as we were. There were several incidences where you’d see my picture in the paper for what we were doing. I can remember that year, it was close to Christmastime, a little blonde girl, I picked her up and playing with her, and she got snot all over my face. I still remember that. But that didn’t matter. That was something that I really felt that I was part of, and everybody around had made me feel that I’m part of the society. And so that’s, that’s basically, in a nutshell, that’s basically how I got to where I am. Franklin: Okay. I’d like to back up a little bit and ask you when and where you were born. Slaughter: July the 30th, 1932. I was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Franklin: And did you grow up at in Chattanooga? Slaughter: Absolutely. Yes. Franklin: And was Chattanooga an officially segregated town? Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, what your life was like growing up with segregation. Slaughter: Okay. We had our neighborhoods and they had their neighborhoods. To the extents possible, we avoided each other. Because most of the—99% of the black people had absolutely nothing, but they had quite a few white people who were in the same boat that we were in. [LAUGHTER] I still remember, as a little kid, when the railroad—when the train would come by, some of the young men would climb up on there and throw coal off the—onto the ground. And those of us on the ground, would pick it up and take that coal to our houses. [LAUGHTER] And that is true. That is true. I still remember that. Franklin: Wow, hard times, huh? Slaughter: Well, ’32—I was born in ’32, that was the worst economic [unknown] that this country’s ever had. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: I was born right in the middle of that. Franklin: Yeah! And you went to segregated schools? Slaughter: Went to segregated school. I’ll tell you that we didn’t have any school buses. There were school buses around, but none for us. We’d have to sit in the back of the bus. Just like—you know. You’ve heard all of that. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: And it got to the point, sometimes I’d figure on doing something to get something started. Because I decided that I was not going to be a second-class citizen. And I had to pay by tokens to ride the bus. And I just got to the point where I don’t feel like getting up today. I never got up. And he stopped the bus. He said, boy, get to the back of the bus. I told him, you put me back there. I have some of my little knives someplace. I had a knife about that long, about that big. Just as soon as the white boys decided they were going to make me go to the back of the bus, I got out my knife and started trimming my fingernails. They knew what that meant. Nobody said a thing to me. This is before Rosa Parks did that. She was a matronly lady, and she was nice and kindhearted and what-have-you. I was just a guy who decided that today I’m going to raise hell. Franklin: How old were you when this happened? Slaughter: I was in high school. Franklin: Okay. And the white people that were accosting you, were they around your same age? Slaughter: This was just a regular bus system. They didn’t have—not for black people, they didn’t have school buses. Oh. I went to Orchard Knob School, which is a monumental place, kind of a park. It was a park. If you go down South where the Civil War was fought, you can see all the statues and names and what-have-you, like that. Camera operator: Can we pause here? My card says it’s full. Franklin: Oh, sure. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: Are we ready? Camera operator: Yup. Franklin: Okay. So you were talking about going down to the park where they had Civil War monuments or something? Slaughter: Oh, yeah. Called the Battle of Orchard Knob. It’s on a big hill and adjacent, across the street, was the school that I went to through the ninth grade. Then after that, that’s when we’d have to ride the bus across town to go to high school. We had to ride right by city—I don’t know, it was Chattanooga’s City High School. Right by, we’d have to ride the bus to be on the other side of town where our high school was. You probably heard of the situation where I still got the same new book that I was given in the ninth grade, and that book was the one where we learned first aid by the Red Cross. I still got that book. That was the first new book I ever had. Franklin: New book, as in, the books in school previously would’ve been— Slaughter: They’d been used and torn up and then they ship them to us. Franklin: Right. Slaughter: They’d buy some more books, but they wouldn’t give us the new books. Franklin: Right, the new books would go to the white schools and then the black schools would get the older textbooks. Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you had graduated from Tennessee State University. Slaughter: Mm-hmm. Franklin: What made you want to go to college, and what did you get your degree in? Slaughter: I was the only person in my family who finished high school. Franklin: Wow. Slaughter: And I had enough inner change—or I want to say, moxie, I might say, that people start thinking, boy, he’s smart, boy, he’s smart. With them saying that I’ve got the intelligence to go farther. So I decided that—oh. I sang in the glee club, in my high school glee club. Some people thought I had a fair enough voice. In fact, the music teacher, after I graduated from—just before graduating from high school, the ceremony and all, she gave me a $50 check. That was a scholarship. That was the only scholarship I ever had. And I had to take it back to her and tell her, I can’t go—give this to somebody who’s going to go to college. Then after the graduation, just immediately after graduation, I received my letter from the United States government saying I had been selected. [LAUGHTER] So I was drafted. Robert Franklin: And that was—the Korean War was going on at the time, right? Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: And how long did you stay in the Army for? Slaughter: Those two years. I’ll tell you now, that’s the interesting thing, because you’re looking at a man who—I loved those military parades. I thought that was entertainment for me to—I enjoyed it. But I tell you one other thing, when we got—a bunch of us trainees got there at the same time to set up battalion headquarters and what-have-you, I was assigned to be a supply specialist, to take care of all the property that the government had given us. And so things were going fine. Of course, I didn’t know a whole lot about that, either, but that’s what—I went to supply specialist training school. When those guys—we called them boy wonders, the National Guardians—when that outfit—there was an outfit of guys who hadn’t had basic training like I had, but they had National Guard. They put a corporal in my place, and he didn’t know anything about being a soldier, either. He just had that uniform on. At any rate, we were put into details to be taken down to Taegu Air Base. We had to camouflage the facilities, just in case they attacked us. And we did have a great number of times when we thought that we were going to be attacked. But I never had to fight; I never had to shoot a bullet, except at the target. Oh, after so long a time in Korea, my outfit, the whole battalion—oh, I’m trying to tell it in sequence and I’m getting it all screwed up. Franklin: It’s okay. Slaughter: But there were a bunch of us assigned to go and camouflage tanks on the airport base. Well, that didn’t sit well with me. It was hot as all get-out there in Korea. And so a bunch of us, we’d go down further where the civilization was, where they had day rooms and they had decent living conditions and what-have-you. We’d get up 5:00 in the morning and be shipped down there, and then just as soon as they left, we’d go to the place and shoot pool and do stuff. [LAUGHTER] And I remember, the one time, I sat there in the chair, I must have lost at pool. But I fell asleep. And I heard somebody, all of the sudden, Slaughter! Slaughter! Woke me up, my first sergeant was right between my legs. What the hell are you doing in here? Mixing. To shorten it, we were done busted. I got an Article 15. Are you familiar with an Article 15? That’s like going to court and having a trial and mete out the punishment. Well, my punishment—and this is the company commander, he was a first lieutenant. He said, is there anything else you want to say before I employ the sentence? I said, no, sir, but yes. I said, I came on this job and I was doing a good—I was having—I was doing the work well, satisfied—suddenly, when those cowboys came in, you took all the authority and interest away from us, and you put them in there. I told him, I’m a little mad, and I don’t plan to be out working out there in the sun. So, if I got to go back out there, you’re going to find me doing the same thing. This was a man from Massachusetts. He didn’t have any interest in trying to be hard on anybody. So he said, okay. So I was sentenced to seven days of extra duty in the kitchen. So I did that standing on my head. In fact, we would look forward to getting where the officers had all the little steaks and things, we just cooked our own food—[LAUGHTER] So I’d look forward to that, every night. Let’s go, let’s go to work. [LAUGHTER] But after that time was over, by the time I’d fulfilled my requirement, we had our orders. We were going to leave and go to Guam. So they needed somebody to be in charge of all of the goods and what-have-you. So they assigned me to be in charge of that. And I’m strolling around there with my clipboard, seeing all this stuff. I was quite proud. They gave me some responsibility, and I was quite proud to be able to do it the best I could. And nobody ever said anything anymore about it. Except if it was justified. But when I got to Guam—I don’t know if you guys know anything about Guam. That’s the South Seas—one of a string of islands called the Marianas Islands. I’m told that that was—and it was a B-29 air base. I’m told that it was from that place that the atom bomb was loaded and sent to Japan to be—I don’t know if that’s the truth or not. Franklin: I think it was Tinian Island, was the island. Right? Yeah, Tinian. A different island in the South Seas. Slaughter: Well, Tinian, it was one of the string—it was part of the Marianas Islands, though. Franklin: Right. So jumping forward a bit, you went to Tennessee, Tennessee State University. Slaughter: Oh. I was one of the few people who were married in my outfit. So when payday came, I’d take my money, and I’d send it home to my wife, until I had enough to—you know, a fair amount of money. That, along with the GI Bill, that’s what I used in order to go to college. Franklin: And what did you get your degree in? Slaughter: Civil engineering. Franklin: Oh, civil engineering, okay. And how did you hear about this job in Snoqualmie? And why did you apply to go to Washington, so far away from Tennessee? Slaughter: Because they had fliers out. You could look on the bulletin board and see who needs who to go where. And I flunked one course in college. That was my first quarter of calculus. I still don’t know calculus. [LAUGHTER] Dang, I lost my train of thought. Oh. Oh, all the people in my class, they were getting ready to go. They were filling out applications, and I’m one quarter behind, but I just couldn’t stand it any longer, because I was the only person who had so many kids at home. I needed a job. So I filled out the application, too. Four applications. I received copies of three of them; they wanted to hire me. And then I had to tell them I won’t be eligible until the summer of 1960. They wrote me another telegram, we’ll hold the job for you. Franklin: Wow. Slaughter: This is a part of the move to integrate black people and white people in the service. If Kennedy had not taken it upon himself to go personally down to the South to see what the conditions were, we’d probably still be sitting in the back of the bus. Kennedy is the one who built a fire under people. And Johnson, now, he was a southerner. But he was an aristocrat. He didn’t know what the little bitty people were doing, either. So when Kennedy got shot, Johnson took over, he looked for himself what Kennedy was doing, and he just carried it on forward. And I remember reading the paper—one of the papers, big headlines, Johnson, That Son of a Bitch. Because he had been in—he was one of the good ol’ boys before, but he saw how awful it was that black people had to live. And he carried on Kennedy’s interest in integrating the whole thing. Franklin: When you started on at Hanford, what was your first position? Slaughter: I was an engineer. Franklin: And what were you doing there? Slaughter: Construction engineer. Oh, I did a little—I had done a little bit of surveying. That’s what I did when I was working for the National Forest, surveying and designing roads and bridge approaches, that kind of a thing. So I got to the point where my qualities were well-respected. In fact, when they saw how some of my performance—I skipped a grade— Franklin: In the Forest Service? Slaughter: No, no, Atomic Energy Commission. Franklin: Oh, at the Atomic Energy Commission. Slaughter: I’ve told this story to a whole lot of people, and I will never fail to tell how those guys took me under their arms—under their wings, and they trained me how to be an engineer. Franklin: Who was that? Slaughter: The people at the Atomic Energy Commission. I learned a lot, you’d just be surprised. You’ve been hearing here lately about the leaking field tanks—the leaking waste tanks. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: Well, I managed the contracts. Some of those very tanks—we had a lot, a lot of tanks—but this was a new kind of tank. This was a tank-on-tank situation. Not only that—what do they call that? I can’t think of the name of it now. Stress relief, those tanks. Are you familiar with stress relieving? Franklin: Kind of. There was so much pressure in them, right, from the heat and the radionuclides— Slaughter: So much pressure, it created stress in the corners. And so therefore, it started to corrode—erode quite a bit. So in order for it to last a long time, you bend the tanks—the steel a certain way. Then, you weld all those welds—10,000 welds per tank. And then to stress relieve it, there’s one bit of knowledge that you need to know. Carbon steel will fold and fall down after 1,250 degrees Fahrenheit. I want you to imagine having to try to stress relieve every bit of a million-gallon tank. And it has to be—it can’t be a whole lot of stress here, and then—it had to be uniform. And that was a job that I had. I used to stay up all night trying to get them to be just as hot in one place as it was in the other. I think we had to be within 250 degrees all the way through. And I learned to stress relieve—see, I learned this on the job. And also, it had to be radiographed. Each foot— [POUNDING ON DOOR] Slaughter: Come in. [Woman off-camera]: John, are you coming down for lunch? Slaughter: Huh? [Woman off-camera]: Are you coming down for lunch? Slaughter: Not right now. [Woman off-camera]: Okay. Okay, sorry. Slaughter: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Okay, that’s another one that I’m going to be friends with, I think. I don’t know why she came in and asked me if I was coming in for lunch. I don’t know what she wanted. Franklin: You were talking about the stresses, if you will, of trying to stress relieve these things. Slaughter: Oh, yes, and I learned how to rig—I didn’t have to do any of it myself, but I learned how under the guy—he was the main inspector. I did the management and all that stuff, but this man, he knew what he was doing, and he taught me everything—well, I don’t know if it was everything he knew, but he taught me a considerable amount. I learned how to look at the radiograph to see if it’s—if you got any bubbles in it—it has to be good, welded steel all the way through, all the way. And 10,000 welds per tank. And I learned how to do that, and they even tried to—well, it was just marvelous that I learned the technology, and here I am with a degree in civil engineering. But I had more knowledge than most of the people around that. Because Don, was his first name, he taught me everything he knew. And I was so grateful. I’ll tell you, this was kind of related to what you want, but at Savannah River, you know they’ve got a nuclear reservation there, too. They had a different design than what we used. So we had a delegation of top engineers from here, we went to Savannah River, that’s in South Carolina, in order to see what they’re doing and how theirs is different from ours and try to figure out the ramifications. And I remember Babcock and Wilcox—that’s a firm that makes asbestos. Asbestos, you know, is dangerous. But we didn’t recognize that danger then. So what we would do, build the tank and then pour asbestos about that thick into the inside of the tank. Whereas, you have all the way around the tank, you’ve got a crawlspace about that wide. And we had all kinds of pipes and different things coming up. So they used those holes, different holes in the top. Yeah, it’d be about—I can’t explain it to you. But I remember going to—it was time to go to lunch, and this man, he was kind of a high executive with the Babcock and Wilcox Company. So that’s where I got my first look at Augusta, Georgia. It was Augusta where they took us to the Green Jacket. Now those guys, usually, they respected me and my position to the extent that they didn’t want me to be rejected. And I remember, since I was with the government and all these other guys were contractor guys, so that made me boss. [LAUGHTER] The only guy—they knew so much more than I did, I couldn’t even attempt it. But they made me boss, so the man opened the door to the Green Jacket. Now, you’re familiar with the Green Jacket? Franklin: I’m not. Slaughter: Okay. Augusta? Master’s Golf? Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: That’s where the Master’s are done. In August, Georgia. And I remember them opening the door for me and showing me a place to sit. And I looked around and all the black heads peeking from around the corners and what-have-you. They thought that was the greatest thing in the whole world, seeing a man being treated with dignity. And that never left me. That’s why I made it my business—I’m going to be a first-class citizen. It may only be for an hour, but that hour is going to be with dignity. And I did. And I’ve been trying to pull everybody else around up with me, and I think we’ve done very well. Franklin: Yeah. Did you work with any other black engineers at Hanford? Slaughter: No. No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t. Franklin: You’ve mentioned that you were, to your knowledge, the first black person to own a home— Slaughter: In Kennewick. Franklin: In Kennewick, yes. Over time, did other black families start moving to Kennewick? Slaughter: Yes. Franklin: Was there a community and there, and were you instrumental in—or were you part of that community? Slaughter: Yeah. Herb Jones, he’s the one—after I had done—he decided he was going to buy a house, too, down there, by—well, I don’t know where it was, I’ve forgotten where it was. But somebody did something to their car. Had a relative with a brand new Ford, I remember. Something happened to it. But nothing ever happened to me like that. Franklin: It was like vandalized or something like that? Slaughter: Huh? Franklin: Their car was vandalized or something like that? Slaughter: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t terrible. You could wash—could give it a paint job, and you’d be good as new. Franklin: Where was the center of the black community in the Tri-Cities? Was there kind of a community in each city, or was east Pasco the focal point? Slaughter: East Pasco. Franklin: And did you go to east Pasco often; did you have any friends in the area? Slaughter: I tried, but—it’s kind of hard to—some of them, it’s kind of hard to get along with them. Franklin: Why was that? Slaughter: I don’t know. I think it’s upmanship, you might say. They even—I noticed that they stopped now, I mean, I guess they did. They tried to circulate the fact that I was not the first black person to live in Kennewick. One of them did it. And that wasn’t my purpose. Franklin: You were just trying to have some dignity, right, some respect and live where you wanted to live? Slaughter: Oh, yeah. My wife, bless her heart—people just—oh, that’s another thing. I learned how to talk a little bit better—a little bit different than being a Southerner. My wife never—she never lifted one eyelid to change how she talks. And the people who befriended her, they just—it was refreshing. See, even the bigshots’ wives, they’d get sick of people scraping and bowing to them. Well, my wife didn’t do that. And they liked her because of it. Franklin: Were you ever—how were you treated on the job at Hanford? Did your racial background ever figure into any mistreatment at Hanford? Slaughter: No, it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t. I had my run-in, but it wasn’t because of race. I know what it was. It stemmed back—remember way back then, when I was being an engineer in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and I decided that when I retire, where do I want to live? And so I decided that I wanted to come back here and live. People ask me, why? Because I love the people. The people just opened their doors to me, and I appreciate it. Franklin: Besides moving to Kennewick in ’65, and really, I think kind of participating in Civil Rights in that way, did you participate in any other civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? Slaughter: Yeah, I remember when things were really hot and heavy and the pot was starting to boil over with anger and all. There were a number of us who did not, for some reason—I didn’t hear—nobody did anything to me. Gus Wiley, he used to be the head of Battelle there. Nothing happened to him. And there was a bunch of us. I just named the two, because Gus and I were—we decided to put a stop—to pour some water on this heat, this boiling over. So we decided we’d follow the police around, so whenever they had an encounter, we could see with our own eyes who’s starting the unrest. Because they were just accusing one another. I for one, I’ll die for my cause, but I’m not going to die for somebody else’s cause, see. Gus and I—it just happens that he and I hooked up together. We followed—and we just kind of made the police kind of nervous. Until somebody started some dialogue with the windows down, and we’d talk with one another, the police and us. And after—it didn’t take long for them to see that we weren’t—we were doing what we can to keep a riot from happening. We’re not trying to help one side or the other, but I know somebody’s lying. So before I put my head on the chopping block, I’m going to find out why I’m putting it on there. That was all of our intentions. Once they found out that all we’re trying to do is keep the peace, actually, they just kind of helped us keep the peace. Franklin: What cities were you doing this in? Slaughter: Pasco. Franklin: Pasco. And what were your findings? Slaughter: I didn’t see anybody do anything. Nobody broke the law or anything. And I came home just as satisfied. I don’t look for trouble. I’m trying to prevent any trouble. But there were some hotheads over on the other side, in Pasco. They were fomenting unrest. They were trying to stir up some things that we were trying to undo. Franklin: When you say hotheads, do you mean— Slaughter: People out—black people. Trying to raise hell. And we met with those people to tell them, I’m not going to stick my neck out for you. You’re trying to—a risk is what you’re trying to do. Nothing ever—all that time we were—it lasted for several days. And all that time, when we were doing that, nothing ever happened. Nothing. Good or bad. Nothing ever happened. Franklin: Why do you think they were trying to stir up trouble, in your opinion? Slaughter: Well, hell-raisers will do it. You don’t have to have a reason. You don’t have to have a reason. They want to get a job that they’re not qualified for, for example. They want to be thought of as being the biggie. It’s pride—false pride. And we were not interested in that. Anytime somebody let me participate in something with the credentials that Gus Wiley had, I’m more than satisfied. Not Gus Wiley—Gus, that’s his wife. [LAUGHTER] I can’t think of his name right now. Franklin: I can’t think of his first name right now, either. Tom Hungate: Bill. Slaughter: Bill. Franklin: Bill Wiley. Slaughter: Yeah. Franklin: Right, yeah. Head of PNNL. I’ve heard there were some protests in Pasco in, I think, ’67, around there. Did you participate, or hear, or do you have any memories of those protests? Slaughter: No. Franklin: No, okay. Slaughter: I know there might have been some people who were trying to stir up stuff, and I just ignored them. Franklin: My last questions are kind of like closing, open-ended questions. In what ways, if any, did the security or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Slaughter: It didn’t. Franklin: It didn’t? Were you able to talk about what you worked on with your family and friends? Slaughter: No, I made it a policy to not—there were times when I needed to get some information, I would read a document—a confidential or secret document. But that was just incidental to my work. My work had nothing to do with that problem. Franklin: Oh, okay. How long did you work at Hanford for? Slaughter: Let’s see. I came to Hanford in 1965, and ’73, I went back to Oak Ridge for the purpose of trying to move up the ladder. Didn’t work, but it didn’t hurt, either. So after I’d gone at work at Oak Ridge another eight years, I decided to try to figure out, where should I go. And believe it or not, my home town is exactly 100 miles from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. But that’s not where I wanted to live. I liked the small town air here. And so that’s why I wanted to come back here to live. And the rest is history. Franklin: Yes, it is. Speaking of history, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Slaughter: That’s a biggie. [LAUGHTER] That’s a biggie. I’ve learned—I don’t know. I just don’t know. One thing that I do know that I used to love going, certain parts of the year, the eagles would land in what used to be Hanford. I’d go down there and look at the eagles. I don’t know of anything else. Franklin: Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration and segregation and civil rights in the Tri-Cities? Slaughter: You know, I mentioned before, some people thought I had a nice singing voice. Franklin: Yeah. Slaughter: I especially, that church I started going to. Incidentally, I’m still going to that same church, but it’s got a different name and it’s a much, much bigger church. I’m still—I’ve been instrumental in—okay, the pastor we have now, I was instrumental in getting him to be at our church. I got guided to the committee, the pastor search committee. In the beginning, I wasn’t part of it. But it was an older man. They tried to represent older people, younger people—different differences. So going through what is kind of—it’s a hard job, trying to decide who was best suited to be my pastor. That’s not an easy job. Anyway, the guy who was supposed to represent the older people, he backed off. So they asked me to be part of it, and I did. And we—if you go to hear a sermon of our priest, you know that it was a success. I had something to do with his being there. That’s because I just went up to him and asked him, how come you don’t fill in an application? And he said, oh, what’s-his-name is my friend. I said, that has nothing to do with being your friend. I talked him into being interested in being our pastor. Franklin: Okay. Slaughter: Just edit that out, all right? Franklin: Sure, sure. Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Slaughter: Well, there’s so much that I’ve forgotten. I hee-hawed all the way through this thing. Franklin: No, you’re great. We’re really happy to get what you have, and what you told us is really great. Some really great history there. So thank you for letting us interview you. Slaughter: Well, thank you. This makes about the third interview that I’ve had concerning Civil Rights, et cetera. Franklin: I’ll have to look for those other two. Slaughter: Well, only one had all this stuff. Franklin: Okay. Well, great. Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Atomic Energy Commission Battelle Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1965-1973 1982- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-1973 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Slaughter Description An account of the resource John Slaughter moved to Kennewick, Washington in 1965 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1965-1973. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Chattanooga (Tenn.) Pasco (Wash.) Discrimination Civil rights Segregation Korean War, 1950-1953 Civil engineering Civil rights movements Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/28/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288.