45 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F85d2697537289322f1ef78bc2e2e8d84.JPG 462252d2da1844068f2fc6dc50b25dae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Williams Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: We’re rolling. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John A. Williams on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mr. Williams about his experiences working at the Hanford site and owning a winery in the Tri-Cities region. John Williams: Okay. Franklin: So is it okay if I call you John? Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, great. And you can call me Robert. Williams: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So I read in your—Emma [Rice] was kind enough to give me a bio, and so I read that your father worked at Hanford in World War II and you came here when you were a child. Williams: Mm-hmm. Franklin: The best place to being seems there, at the beginning. Williams: Okay, if you want me to, I will start there. Franklin: That would be great. Williams: Okay. Yeah, I was a little—actually it’s pretty good information about people that lived here in the early days. My father had already came out here. My mother drove us out, about six months after my father had come to work at Hanford. Franklin: Okay, sorry—when did he come to work? Do you remember the time of the year, what year it was? Williams: Well, it had to be in early ’44, I think. Franklin: Okay. Williams: Because we also—then we came out here about six months later and moved in middle of ’44, as best I can remember. I’m not remembering very many dates anymore. [LAUGHTER] We actually had to board up in Sunnyside in the old—they used to have some old Navy homes there. Franklin: Really? Williams: So we were about four or five blocks from the school there. So my mother took me down there, and I started school there. One day at lunchtime or wherever they were going—they were trucking us along the sidewalk, a bunch of kids—and I turned and headed toward what I thought was home. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t tell me what I was going to do. Anyway, turns out I got lost on the first day of school out there. [LAUGHTER] So it took them about a half day to find me or something like that. Anyway, we lived in those old Navy homes, and then we finally—they finished the house in Richland. It was a B house down on Thayer Drive. At that time, they usually had big courts behind all the houses, they were usually built in at least an arrangement where there was usually a large back area in there. And I remember there was not a seed of grass. It was all sand and dirt. And every time the wind blew, it blew like hell. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that’s our first move to Richland. Then I started school there and went to Sacajawea—originally it was Sacajawea. Then Spalding, and then Marcus Whitman, and then Columbia High School. That was sort of that situation there. I then went to CBC for a year, not realizing that things weren’t going to mesh up too well with the programs at WSU. I had met—I’m not sure how I’d met these people—but I had met a couple people, I guess, that were material scientists, metallurgists. So I talked to them for a while, and I decided that that’s what I wanted to be—a physical metallurgist. So I went to school at WSU in the physical metallurgy department. Now I think they call it mechanics of materials or something like that. It changed—they’re always changing the [LAUGHTER] names of the programs and stuff. So I graduated from there in 1961. Then, like I say, I interviewed a number of places, and decided, you know, I really sort of like Richland. [LAUGHTER] Because I had some--well, there was the mining industry, that was centered up around the Great Lakes. Then Pennsylvania and then there was Washington, DC was a possibility. So I interviewed a number of places, but they really were not something that would fit my personality as a basic country boy. Since I’d also grown up hunting and fishing—that was before they had all the lakes set up around then at Potholes Reservoir area. So we duck hunted on the Yakima River, and fished, and hiked in the mountains. It was a really great—as far as I’m concerned, it was a really great place to grow up because of the diversity of mountains and desert and everything else. [LAUGHTER] Now I live out between West Richland and Benton City. My address is Benton City, but that’s my mailing address. We started—with my former partner there—we started the first vineyard on Red Mountain. I remember it was sort of just a Jeep trail going in there, along what is now called Sunset Road. In fact, it was sort of a sunken road you might say. It was always interesting, because in the wintertime when it rained—and you know it did rain occasionally—but the water stayed in the road. We even had—you’d go in there on that road and there would be ducks sitting on the ponds on the road. [LAUGHTER] Oh, anyway, we started our effort to develop a vineyard, and that was in 19—so we bought the land in 1973, and got some permits and stuff. Actually, I bought the land from my father-in-law who owns—at that time—Waste Incinerating Company. I told him, I says, well, if I don’t hit water, I don’t want to close. [LAUGHTER] We had researched the water and we figured it was down there. I mean, we really researched the water. We figured it was down there about 540 feet below the surface. Through a couple layers of basalt also and the geological formation that the water was in fractured basalt. Anyway, we got an old well driller in there and we told him the water was down about 540 foot--just a couple young kids—guys. He’d look at us and roll his eyes, oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] They know where the water is. So anyway they started drilling and finally got down there. He got down there and we knew that was the day that he was going to get there. So we got out there after work and he was still drilling. Just—he says, boys, I just reached 540 feet, and there isn’t any water there. And we says, well, it’s got to be close. Anyway [LAUGHTER] we were pretty confident. He drilled about two more feet and hit water. I always remembered that, because he looked up, he says, you boys did know where that water was! [LAUGHTER] That was sort of the beginning of our vineyard efforts there. It took all the money that we had to drill wells and plant grapes. So I kept on working at Hanford. I worked with—when it started it was General Electric, and then Battelle came in. I had a program there and I was just like, no matter what I was doing, they just wanted me to do—write proposals and everything else like that. I had a fully funded program and it was one of those things that I just—I know what these guys are doing, because that was their young days in Battelle. I was traveling with some of my research projects at Hanford. So I just decided, well, if this is what the situation is going to be, I says, I think I’ll just change jobs. So I did go to work for my father-in-law at Waste Incinerating. Since I knew metallurgy and the incinerating processes—there’s a lot of metallurgy associated with the incineration of materials and all the different conditions, atmosphere and everything. So I had a pretty good feeling for what it was, so I worked for him for—oh, about a little less than two years. I just—I had some conflict with working for him. But it was one of those things that was really good, because I learned something that has always stuck with me, is if you give a guy a job, let him do it, as long as he’s got the capability to do that job. My son started working with us later, and I realized that a lesson learned is a lesson to be applied. With him, working for me, I give him the viticultural work, responsibilities, got into the wine making, because I was still working out here. He did a hell of a job, you know. But I was always very careful about how I approached what he was doing and what my concerns were and stuff. We got along fine. Anyway, I had three kids by the time I got out of college. So most of them are around here now. My one girl, daughter, just moved back. So whole darn family is [LAUGHTER] pretty much—one daughter in Moses Lake and her husband. He works for the silicone company up there and makes—So anyway I started working here, so I worked in the metallurgy department and that was in the early days. I worked with programs called N Reactor Creep, or radiation of materials and Creep was with N. It was basically on Zircaloy, stainless steel, and materials also for Fast Breeder reactors, which were coming along at that time—or proposed to come along. And then that’s after—that was before I left and went to work for Waste Incineration Company. And then when I came back to work, I had—Westinghouse came in work. I had a program called Heavy Section Steel Technology Program. This was the only non-FFTF fast reactor or nuclear reactor program, because it was all associated with power reactors. More specifically, pressurized water reactors, which were the home and the kind of reactors that Westinghouse was building all over the place. So here I am, sitting in with a bunch of people that are doing all sorts of other work, and I’m doing a pressure vessel steel work, ad interfacing with—it was pretty interesting, because I was interfacing with Oak Ridge National Laboratory, who were—the program direction was out of there. With Naval Research Laboratories in Virginia, and lots of AEC government meetings in Germantown, Maryland. So it was back and forth a lot. That was a really, actually, it was a very interesting program, and pretty much nobody else had any expertise in it, so they pretty much left me alone. [LAUGHTER] As a result of that, I really ended up with a lot of responsibilities and finally developed to a principal engineering position. So I would just BS with some post-graduate education, but where most of those kind of programs went to PhDs to be the head of a program. So I felt pretty fortunate. I did a good job, and really was able to pretty much do my own—make my own guidelines and publish quite a bit of data. So I think that was a real opportunity in terms of my growth. After that, then when that program sort of ended, I went to work in the 305 Building, which was the old reactor building at that time. You know, before they changed that, that’s where they had one of the original graphite piles there. So I subsequently went to work there and it was called the SAF—not the SAF program, it was the FMEF Program, which was where we developed all the equipment and tested it and checked it all out and wrote the procedures and trained technicians with the equipment. With the eventual move of that equipment out to the NDE and DE cells and in the FMEF down on the minus-30 or -40 foot level on that. We finally moved those in there and got everything installed and then they decided, well, we’re not going to do that here. [LAUGHTER] Which is not an unusual thing that’s happened over the years, in terms of programs at Hanford. All that stuff was then pulled out and sent to Dayton, Ohio, where DoE had a big lab there, a materials lab and fuels lab and stuff like that. That was a—well, I was a little sorry to see it go, because I thought it was going to be—I thought we had really done a great job, and the people that ended up with equipment just always really thought we had done a great job, too. So from that, I then moved into the SAF operation, which is for the production of—it was called the Secure Automated Fabrication line. It was a line that everything was in hoods, connected for continuous processes through the lines. There was one line that was set up for pellet production, canning of the pellets. Then there was another line for the chemistry sections of it. It was quite a—it was actually a really technical challenge and we had a lot of really good engineers. Normally, we had—with the number of systems, there were like 30-some systems within the process control. Not even counting all the computer model—the computer systems that were used to run it. So it was basically an automated system running from computer consoles and such. Anyway, the people that I worked with there were very dedicated and I thought it was a real accomplishment. They never did—we actually ran the line and tested the line with basically surrogate materials that were used to run the processes and test out the processes. Toward the end of that process, my systems were pretty much done. So I ended up sort of managing the—with the help of a couple of technicians—documenting the systems, reviewing all the operation procedures for each one of the systems, and then documenting that and getting that into the files for running the system. It was quite a system, I will say that, for sure. I think then from there, I went on to—well, we had a group there that had been—the process engineers and the chemical engineers and everybody that was involved to be able to run a system like that and create the documentation for it. As a result of that, we then sort of—let’s see, I got to think just a minute here. Okay. From there, we went—we had a group that we had all worked together there and we formed another group that was set up to, then, start the re-documentation of a lot of the procedures in the outer areas, the plutonium production and those facilities. They had—in other words—they had procedures out there, but nobody liked to read them, because they were so cumbersome. They were! I mean, they were just really practically impossible for the people that worked there to follow the procedures and accomplish work in a simple and a procedural manner where they could have good quality control on the thing. Anyway, we went out and they formed a group where they wanted us to go to the major facilities and rewrite operational procedures for them. I think that happened because of all the kudos that we got from documenting the FMEF SAF line in the facility. In other words, it was a—I will say—it was not a simple system, but it was well-documented and well-designed and all the guys that worked on that project were really pretty pleased with the stuff we had done. We got out to—I think it was 200 West, and we started on—people there, when we first came in, they says—it’s one of those things—well, we’re going to help you. [LAUGHTER] Nobody likes to be helped. But once we got started with it and talked to them about our goals and how we would accomplish it and stuff, they actually didn’t feel that badly toward us. I think there was a lot of animosity. You know, when you come in and tell them, we’re going to help you, you know? There’s a lot of people say, they aren’t going to help us, you know. So anyway with all the interviews that we did, and the participation that we included these people in the writing and the editing and everything for these procedures, for their different facilities, the first one that we finished, our group got a really big kudos and a lot of pat on the backs, and a lot of notoriety within Westinghouse at that time that was doing that. The next one, actually, the people that we did it for initially said, well where are you going next? We’ll recommend you that it’s something that can really be of value. So that’s what we did for the next couple years. Did a number of sites—I can’t remember what they were—oh. [LAUGHTER] It’s been a while. I actually looked for some of the documents and stuff that we had written and also some papers that I had written. And I could not find a damn thing. I had written most of those on a computer and stuff like that. I had kept some of my publications that we had produced in the open literature. So anyway, I didn’t find them. That’s 20-some years ago and not too easy to maintain where those are at, especially getting a house like ours and everything is sort of cluttered. [LAUGHTER] We did a couple more of those facilities, and then I had heard that there had been advertised that there was going to be early retirement because they wanted to do reduction of force. So I actually opted for that about a year or so ahead. What happened then is that they put me on another program where there was a number of us. There were some quality assurance people, some computer people, and a number of other disciplines that we were going to rewrite a lot of the Westinghouse Hanford management plans and that sort of thing. Since we had gotten pretty good kudos from the work that we had done for individual facilities, they decided that, well, maybe we need to update the Westinghouse program guides and stuff like that. We got started into that, and I worked at that for about a year. And that’s when I went because I was planning on—I told my managers there that if they actually had the early retirement, I was—sayonara. [LAUGHTER] So that opportunity came up in 1994 and I opted for the early retirement, which was, I think, a pretty good deal. You get three years on your age—on service, and didn’t have to get any pains to leave. So that’s what I did. Of course, at that time, the vineyard and the winery was getting more and more demanding. So I quit. The other thing was my father was at an age that I wanted to spend some time hunting and fishing with him, and damned if I got out—once I—after I quit, he had a heart attack around Christmas time. I remember, because we were headed—we were going to go over to—well, he’d had a heart attack before that. So every year we always went over to Pasco, up on there, where they used to have all the Christmas lighting and a lot of stuff like that. So we always took them and went up there. And, darn, we were sitting there having dinner at my mom’s, at their house, and my mother was bitching a little bit. [LAUGHTER] You can take that bitching out. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, my dad got up and walked to his chair and picked up his pill bottle. And I says, Dad, if you’re having a pain, just take that pill, don’t have to read the bottle again. Just take the pill. About that time he slipped out of the chair and passed away there. So that sort of put the kibosh on the hunting and the fishing and the stuff like that. But I had plenty of things to do. I also skied a lot at that time—I started skiing after I got out of college and was on National Ski Patrol for about 30-some years. And all my kids skied and they’re still on Ski Patrol, and grandkids are on Ski Patrol at White Pass, so we’ve been a patrolling family for years. Basically my big recreation thing. I still like to fish and hunt, but I didn’t have a fishing and hunting partner anymore. Well, I had some, but it was not quite the same as doing it with your dad, you know. That sort of brings us up to date. Then, like I said, we expanded our vineyards on Red Mountain. We built—I kept pretty busy after ’94. We built one building, because, actually, our house in Richland had ten-foot basement walls and an outside entrance and it was full of wine barrels--[LAUGHTER]—as my garage was. So we ended up finally building another building out there. I said, gosh, this is a really big building. And we immediately filled it up with tanks and barrels. I told my wife, I said, I’m not going to build any more buildings. And she says, I think you probably will. So it’s never say never. And we ended up building another building which was about twice as big for our case storage, and we have a lab in there and a bottling line, and pretty much a full facility winery. And then after operating from—I think we moved into our house in 1982 with the idea that we would move out of the tasting room down there. Because we had a nice tasting room in the basement and people would come there. And we’d move out of there and build another tasting room. Well, I didn’t do that until about 1970. [LAUGHTER] No, excuse me. 2070—20-07. Excuse me. 2007. So we built a pretty nice tasting room out there and have been using that ever since and it’s been a real big addition for us. We have a number of people working in our tasting room for us. I can always go over and get me a glass of wine when I need it. [LAUGHTER] So I think that probably pretty much brings us up to date. Like I said, when we started our vineyards, there were only eight—well at that time, I think there was only about five wineries in the state. Then 1980, I think there was about—when we actually started selling our first wines, I think there was probably ten wineries. That’s grown over the years now—I know over a year ago there was 800 wineries in the state, and I don’t know how many there is now. There’s probably 900 or so. I don’t know. I lost count. Franklin: Nice. It’s huge—it’s a booming industry. Williams: Oh, it is, yeah. And Oregon--the same thing is happening in Oregon. Between our vineyard and my son’s vineyard and then he has another vineyard out in Finley area that he bought quite a while ago—the first vineyard that he went to work for when he got out of college. Finally he ended up buying it. So we sell grapes to a lot of other wineries with the combined acreage of grapes that we have on Red Mountain and that is about 350 acres of wine grapes. We don’t make that much wine, so we sell quite a bit. Franklin: That’s quite a lot of—that’s pretty big acreage. Williams: Yeah. My grandson works for us—he’s in marketing. I guess my other grandson is probably going to go to work for us someday, if he—he travels around the world and goes to a different—works at a different winery every season, either north or south of the Equator. Because he can do that opposite seasons. He just took his—or he’s taking his exams for entering WSU in enology. Right now, though, he does—he’s got one more year and he’s got a job in France for next vintage. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sounds like a pretty nice life. Williams: He’ll come back eventually, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, unless France grabs him. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. You mentioned so much, and thank you. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: We covered a lot. If you don’t mind, I’m going to go back and maybe— Williams: You can edit whatever you want. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Get a few details No, I’m not editing anything. I’d just like to drill into things a little bit more. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So you said your family first came, you lived in Sunnyside Navy homes. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: And that was, I assume, because of the shortage of— Williams: Yeah, our house in Richland was not finished. So when we moved in to rent the house in Richland, it was brand new and it was the best house we’d ever lived in. [LAUGHTER] We came from Missouri, was our— Franklin: Okay. Williams: And my dad was a—he hated farming. [LAUGHTER] And he got into carpentry and then he actually worked for, I guess it was, Remington Arms in—I think they were in—yeah, they were in Kansas City. That’s how he then was offered—and that was during the Second World War—so he was offered to come to Richland—or Hanford at that time—and go to work on the Project as a carpenter. Eventually, he—well, like I said, we settled in Richland with a brand new home there, and over the years, hunted, fished. My dad was a hobby gunsmith. For years, he was the only gunsmith in the Tri-City area. So he—of course there weren’t that many sporting goods stores—there was BB&M and a couple other sporting goods stores that he used to restore guns for and he had a shop in his basement in the house that he bought—he didn’t buy, but he—one of the things that—except there was four kids and two bedrooms—he excavated his half of the B house, excavated the—and you could do that then—excavated the half of the basement and put the concrete in and the walls in down there with the blessings of the Hanford people. So he had a pretty nice shop down there. Of course it had that great big old furnace in it, too. [LAUGHTER] This is another thing I remember as childhood is, when the coal trucks came around and delivered coal to all the houses, because everything was—one of those big old, big furnace, big coal furnace. Us kids would always—my mother would always get a little ticked off, she’d say, get out of that coal! Get out of there! And all this stuff. [LAUGHTER] And we’d come out usually all black and stuff like that. She kept me pretty clean, considering. She was sort of Mrs. Clean. She eventually worked out there at Battelle. Franklin: Your mother? Williams: My mother worked out there. Franklin: Oh really? What did she do? Williams: Well, she was in the 300 Area and she was in the radiation counting department, where most of it was processing badges and radiation levels on badges and stuff like that. I think that’s what she did primarily there. Every time I’d go there for lunch or have something and see her, she’d say, that’s my son! That’s my son! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Aw. Williams: She was pretty proud of me. Franklin: And how long did she work at Hanford for? Williams: She worked there from, I would say—golly, you asked me a question there. I think she probably worked there from about 19—well she must have worked there at least about ten years before she retired. Franklin: Oh, wow. Williams: Yeah. I can’t remember exactly when she started there, but I remember the place that she worked in there. Franklin: What were your parents’ names? Williams: Williams. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Williams—well, right. Williams: John and Ethel Williams. Franklin: John and Ethel Williams. So much of Hanford’s workforce was—especially after the war was primarily male. It’s very interesting that you had two parents that worked at— Williams: There was actually quite a few women working in the different areas. In 300 Area and in Battelle there. Of course there were a lot of secretaries and then there were people in chemical processing and stuff like that, too. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. So what did your father—you said your father was a carpenter? Williams: Well, he was a carpenter and then he was a power operator-- Franklin: Wow. Williams: --at the reactors. He worked at N Reactor and in the early days, I think his first one was—N Reactor and before that he worked at in Reactor. So we worked at F Reactor and N Reactor. Franklin: Okay. Williams: I think that’s correct. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And how long did he work on—did he retire from Hanford? Williams: Yes, he did. Franklin: And do you know about how long he worked until? Williams: Well, he worked there from about 1944 to—I think he retired in—well, when he came here, I think he was about 35 years old. And he worked there until he retired at 65 or something like that. Franklin: So around 30 years? Williams: 30-some years, yeah. Franklin: So then you guys worked there at the same time. Williams: Pardon? Franklin: So you and your father would have worked on site at the same time? Williams: Well, he was out in the outer areas, and I was in the 300 Area. Basically, he was in the reactor—fuel—reactor materials. Excuse me—bomb materials. [LAUGHTER] And that’s what all those reactors—they were producing material for bombs and they were separating—then all the separations were in the 200 and 200 West Area. And then where they completed the plutonium slugs was in the—I forget the name of the building, but that was in 200 West also. I can’t remember exactly the name of that building. Franklin: Was that the Plutonium Finishing Plant? Williams: The Plutonium Finishing Plant, yes, the Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: We just got a big bunch of photos from that. Because they’re taking that down right now. Williams: Uh-huh. Franklin: So our project just got a big mess of photos from that. Really fascinating— Williams: Yeah, it was. Franklin: --how they [CROSSTALK] Williams: So we actually did one of the plant procedure—plant operating manuals again for that. Franklin: Your group did? Williams: Yes. I’m trying to think of all the other ones that we did, but I can’t remember them all. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. So when you moved out to Sunnyside, were there a lot of other Hanford families that were living— Williams: Well they were living—there was a—because a lot of people were living in Sunnyside, and when my dad first came there, he actually rented a room as a boarder in some people—at a house, a home. And I think there were a lot of other people doing that, too. Franklin: Here in Richland? Williams: No, in Sunnyside. Franklin: In Sunnyside, okay. Williams: Sunnyside. Because in Richland, by the time we were moved to Richland, they had the houses done. So they were building houses all along. Franklin: Right. Williams: But I think there were a lot of people that were living in Sunnyside that were traveling—particularly if they worked out in the outer areas—the West areas or the reactors—they were all clear around, pretty much around that. So they were coming, driving from Sunnyside. And I’m not sure if they had buses running from Sunnyside or not, because I just never asked my dad that. But I never did think about it that much. Franklin: I can imagine back in the ‘40s that would have been a pretty long drive to get to work with the— Williams: Well, it was. And I think they had buses coming out of Sunnyside also. Franklin: So I guess one can imagine that Sunnyside would have been kind of jammed with a bunch of new people from all over the US working. Did you ever—did you go to school—the school that you went to you mentioned, say, was that mixed kids from Sunnyside and Hanford kids? Williams: Well, you know what? I was like first grade and-- Franklin: Right. Williams: All I remember is, I sort of remember where that school was and I remember the places that we lived in. And then my grandparents, when they came out, they moved to Sunnyside. Franklin: Oh. Williams: And so we used to go up there every once in a while and visit them. Then we bought—my mom and dad bought a—they moved down to George Washington Way after I went to school and left home, they moved to George Washington Way. My dad remodeled a whole B house that was—he was pretty handy with that. They also then bought a prefab that was just over on I think Adams there or—anyway, it’s about one block past the street they lived on. Franklin: Okay. Williams: So you could run back and forth and visit and stuff. Franklin: Interesting. So how long did your family live in that—so you said your first house, the B house was on Thayer. How long did the family live there? Williams: Well they lived there and they moved—because I had already—after I started college, so that would have been actually in 1960—excuse me, that would have been in 19—I think they sold the houses in 1960—about 1958, I think. Something like that. Franklin: That’s right on the money. You’re talking about when the government— Williams: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, 1958. Williams: And my folks lived in a duplex with the other person, and they had lived there first, so they had first option on it. So my mother and dad bought another house that became available and they liked it. It was down on George Washington Way, had a big yard and— Franklin: And that would have been one of the alphabet—was that one of the alphabet houses? Williams: Yeah, it was a B house. Franklin: Oh, okay. So a different B house from the first one you lived in? Williams: Well, it was just like it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right, yeah, of course. That’s true. Williams: Yeah, it’s a different B house. It was right on George Washington Way there. Franklin: I could have been more specific. Williams: Right on the corner of George Washington Way and—not Symons—what is that? Well, it was 203 George Washington Way and I’m trying to remember the street that runs alongside at that corner. Franklin: Oh, yeah, that’s in the—that district’s now on the National Register. Williams: Yeah. And so my dad remodeled that house that had a big shop in the basement where he did gun work and stuff like that. People from all over the Tri-Cities used to come there to get their guns fixed, because he had a pretty good reputation. [LAUGHTER] So anyway we had a lot of guns—rifles and—two things I never—my dad wouldn’t let me have. He wouldn’t let me have a BB gun, and he wouldn’t let me have a pistol. Because he says, those are the things that kill each other or put eyes out. [LAUGHTER] So, you know, if you got a long gun, you’ve got a little more [UNKNOWN] But the shotguns and the rifles and—he used to—well, he had one of the first—Weatherby used to be a big company, in terms of the type of rifles and the quality of rifles. Well, he used to build stocks and stuff like that, custom-built stocks for people. He had probably the only—there were not very many licenses given out to people that were gunsmiths. So he had—he sent a picture of a gun that he had built to Weatherby, and they immediately sent him an authorized license to buy and build rifles with their actions and stuff. Franklin: Wow. That’s cool. Williams: I remember when I was in high school—let me just think about it—it’s called fiddleback walnut. And, like I said, he was born in Missouri and there was a lot of walnut in that country. There was a company in Warsaw that was called Bishop Gunstock. They’d been making gunstocks for years—I don’t know if they’re still there, but I think they are. Not too many people make custom wooden gunstock. But he fitted the stock to—did all the inlaying, and then fitted the stock right to people so that when they’d come up, the rifle’s right where it should be, if you’re going to hunt, you don’t want to be looking around for your scope and that sort of thing. The piece of wood that he built on my rifle—and this was in 19—I would say in about 19—well he built that for me in my sophomore year of high school—so that piece of wood, then, the gun—blank stock made out of fitted—it was 55 bucks in 1960. And it was just fiddleback walnut like the backside of a violin. That’s why they call it fiddleback walnut. Franklin: Oh! Williams: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s interesting. So coming here in ’44 and you said you graduated college in ’61, so that means you would have entered Washington State College and graduated from Washington State University. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So you grew up then. So the entire time you grew up in Richland, it was a government town. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: So can you talk about what it’s like to grow up in a town completely owned by the government? Williams: Actually, the government wasn’t really that involved in—they built the houses there and that’s who you paid rent to. It made it pretty reasonable for people to be able to work there and live there. Of course, then there were always people that left—I guess they call it the—every time they had a dust storm, the people left town. [LAUGHTER] They’d say, I’m not working here anymore! But you know it’s surprising how many of those people came back and settled here in Tri-Cities. Franklin: And why do you think they came back? Williams: Probably because the places that they thought they loved, they moved to and then they found out they didn’t love it that much. [LAUGHTER] And then of course the other thing, too, a lot of people that came back liked the outdoor sports, and the lower population, which it was—it was not a big city in terms of a lot of those places where people were from. There were people from Kansas City, there were people from St. Louis, there were people from Chicago, back east, Washington, DC, Pennsylvania, all over the country. There was quite a mix of people that had worked at—generally they had worked—originally, people that came here had worked at either different arms plants and stuff like that during the war and transferred out here because there was a big war effort. But there was also a big need for technical people and work in the reactors and stuff like that. Franklin: Right. Williams: You think about how fast they built some of those reactors, and what they would do today, because it would take a whole lot longer just to get—and do more—well, I always call it comment by the unknowledgeable. [LAUGHTER] Everybody—like a lot of the projects that I had in SAF line, we had people—I mean we had review meetings every month. And people from all over the country would come there. Most of the time you spent—you had to respond to any review question. And you spent a lot of time responding to some pretty stupid questions, because they didn’t know the processes to begin with, though they thought they were experts. That’s my opinion of it. You don’t need to quote me on that. [LAUGHTER] Because it might hit somebody pretty hard. My brother and I, when we were in high school and junior high, actually, we started a lawn mowing business. Franklin: Your brother, or brother-in-law? Williams: My brother and I. So my dad built these little carts to go on the back of our bicycles and we could put our mowers up on there and pedal around town and mow yards. So we had clippers. We were at one time mowing about 40 yards a week in the summertime. Fortunately, in the latter part of that, I had a driver’s license, so we—[LAUGHTER] could drive around. But that was very interesting, because we had people—basically we had a customer waiting list to get on the list if we ever had a vacancy for lawn mowing. And because we did such a good job and we trimmed all around the sidewalks, and we clipped—I mean first class jobs. This rumor spread and so we always had—and the interesting thing was that there was a guy named Campbell that owned the Campbell’s grocery store. He lived down off of Stevens down there some place. And his wife—he came home one day and says, well, I’m paying you guys too much. I only pay my box boys a dollar and a half, or a dollar and a quarter, or something like that. We said, well, do your box boys have to buy their own equipment? No. So there was a number of questions. And we said, you know, we have a waiting list for people that want to have their yards mowed. So if we lose you as a customer, it’s not going to really bother me very much, because you’re downgrading my wages. Anyway, we said, well, we’re not going to mow your yard anymore. His wife called us up and says, won’t you mow my yard? We says, well, are we going to get paid what we used to get paid for it? She says, oh no, I can’t pay you that. My husband won’t let me. So we says, well, we’ve already replaced you with another customer. [LAUGHTER] We were pretty hard businessmen, but we—at that time, we were in high school. Actually, we had an account down at Richland Hardware, it was called at that time, right down on the corner of George Washington Way and Swift there—no, George Washington Way and Lee Boulevard there. So we had our own account down there and then we had an account with a guy that sharpened the mowers and stuff like that. We had to have our mower sharpened every two weeks, because with that many, you go through blades pretty fast. Franklin: Right. Williams: And at that time, our first lawn mower cost us almost $500. Franklin: Wow. Williams: For a gas-powered, driven lawn mower. And that was a lot of money then. I mean, now you can buy a lawn mower for 100 bucks or a few hundred bucks, and not too many people make real-type mowers anymore, walk-behind mowers. Of course those were the best mowers in terms of manicuring the grass, you know. Much better than a rotary mower. So anyway! That’s part of my history. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really interesting. Wow. There’s so much in that. So, I guess to return back to it for a minute—so you’re saying that people were pretty happy living in Richland during the—before the sale—before the privatization. Williams: Well, I think so. We had Columbia High School that was the only high school around at that time, or Richland High School. And you pretty much knew everybody at school. Franklin: Right. Williams: Even though there were quite a few people and there was a lot—activities and that sort of thing. So I think people were happy. We were, and I didn’t know too many people that weren’t happy. There weren’t too many people killing each other or anything at that time. Franklin: To live in Richland at that time, you needed to work at Hanford, right? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: To live in Richland at that time, you needed to work at Hanford? Williams: That is pretty much—yes. To live in a house in Richland, you had to work at Hanford. Franklin: So did you ever have—was it ever a problem for you if people left their jobs or lost their jobs, you had friends leave, or your parents have friends that left? Williams: You know it wasn’t—and in those days, more—there weren’t that many big layoffs. More or less, people left on their own volition. I don’t—I just—it was not something that at that time I was concerned about. Franklin: Right. Williams: We had neighbors around the court there that—there was Gunnison Court, and then there was Putnam and Thayer, and that was sort of the little alcove that we lived in. Then there was a great big court behind that. And then up behind that there was a set of power lines going through. So there was a big alleyway up through there. So we had a lot of play space. [LAUGHTER] We’d get out there at night and kick-the-can and all that sort of stuff. [LAUGHTER] So we were pretty self-entertaining and we all got along pretty good together. Franklin: Did you—when did you find out what was being made at Hanford? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: Do you remember when you found out what was being made at Hanford? Williams: Well, I remember—I do remember—actually I remember them dropping the atomic bomb. Because as soon as it was—it was on the radio. Of course in those days, you didn’t have television, you listened to a lot of radio. Lay around in the living room listening to radio, it’s like watching TV then. [LAUGHTER] You know, all the different programs that were on and stuff. But I remember distinctly the announcement coming over the radio that they had dropped an atomic bomb, and that’s when then everybody knew what they were making out there. None of us—nobody really knew, unless you worked there what they were making, because it was mum’s the word. First thing you could do getting fired is if you were talking—loose lips, they called it. Franklin: Loose lips sink ships. Do you think your father knew before the announcement? Or--? Williams: I think that he knew what they were producing in the reactors. Franklin: Okay. Williams: And I think everybody did, pretty much. They didn’t know, though, that it was going to lead to the atomic bomb. They just knew that they were producing a war material and—of course they’d never seen it go out or never seen it come in. Now, my father-in-law did work in the Plutonium Finishing Plant. He actually developed some of the precision machining operations for producing the final puck. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. Interesting. So you mentioned father-in-law. Where did you meet your wife, is she also from--? Williams: Well, she was—they moved out here about the same time she did, and she lived about three blocks behind me and I never knew her until I got into high school. We met, fell in love, and been in love ever since. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: High school sweethearts? Williams: Yeah, we were. Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. And did you both go to WSU? Williams: Yes, we did. Franklin: Together? And what was her degree in? Williams: Well, she didn’t finish school exactly. Franklin: Okay. Williams: She did do some other—she was actually still in high school when we got married, so she finished high school in Pullman, and then she worked at the hospital in Pullman for a number of years while we were going to school there. And having kids and going to school and studying and playing pinochle. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And you said you had three children when you were in--? Williams: Four. Franklin: Four, but how many when you were in—? Williams: I had three by the time I got out of college. Franklin: Wow, that’s—kids today complain about how little time they have, but I can imagine having three kids and going to school full-time. Williams: Well, you know, they seemed to—they’re all happy and they’re still home. Franklin: Wow. So what did she do—so you moved back to Richland and started working at the site shortly after you graduated. So what did she do? Williams: Well, she has taken care of four kids. [LAUGHTER] And then she was taking some courses at CBC and in Richland. She sort of has a—I would say an associate degree. They didn’t really finish all that, but she’s super-smart. She’s smarter than I am. Reads like fast, and always made good grades. I always wondered why the hell she married me! [LAUGHTER] Maybe because I got her pregnant! [LAUGHTER] You don’t have to put that in there. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] We can cut that if you want. That’s—oh, that’s great. Excellent. So you were working on Hanford site when President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Williams: Yes, I was. Franklin: Did you go to see that or--? Williams: I did, yes. Franklin: Can you tell me about that, what you remember? Williams: Well, it was just one of things that—I went out there and there was a lot of people stood around there. He said a few things and we all clapped and [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And that was it? Williams: That was it, yeah. Franklin: Are there any other major events that come to mind when you think about Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Williams: Well, I sort of remember—you know, I’m trying to think of a major event. Well, I remember when they built CBC, because when I first went to CBC, it was in the old airport building over at the airport in Pasco. And that came along after I was already out of there. Franklin: Oh. Williams: Oh, what else do I remember? I remember having a lot of fun around here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s good. This might seem a little out of left field, but I’ve been thinking about this question as I do the interviews. Do you know the name Sharon Tate? She was a Hollywood actress. Williams: Well, you know, I remember reading about her later, but that’s when everybody else did. And I didn’t really know her, or hadn’t gone to school with her. Franklin: Right. But because she was from the community, was there a particular reaction here? Or was the news really— Williams: You know, I think, actually, it was one of those things that you sort of remember hearing about. But she had been gone for some time, you know? So it was—all the aftermath of that was more spectacular in terms of the group. Of course, they still got that guy in prison, and as far as I’m concerned they never need to let him out. He was a crazy man. He made a lot— Franklin: Yeah. He certainly—I don’t think there’s any debate on that. Williams: Yeah, he made a lot of news. And then they had that place in Death Valley where they congregated. Franklin: Yeah. Williams: And they still got a good number of them still—the fact is, I think I was reading last year, they’ll potentially release one of the gals, but I think they then reneged on that. I don’t know if they did that or not. Franklin: I think they didn’t. I think I followed that too. I don’t believe they released her. Williams: So there was nothing that—I don’t think it was anything that anybody really got excited about or anything, because it was so remote from here, and it was Hollywood and you know, all sorts of things happen in Hollywood. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So is there anything that we haven’t talked about? Williams: I don’t know, I keep talking. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. We love it. Williams: Yeah, I talked about our younger days and moving here and growing up here and staying here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I have a question that just came to my mind if you don’t mind. Williams: Yeah. Franklin: What made you decide to start a winery? Williams: Well, I tell you, my former partner and I, we worked together both in material science. And we shared an office. And he was from Vallejo, California. And went to Berkeley. And I was just a beer-drinking kid from WSU at that time. So I tasted some wine that he had and I says, oh, God, that’s pretty good stuff. So we started talking more about wine. And then at that time we got interested in—and we were in research, so we were reading about the research that was being done at the Prosser Experiment Station with Dr. Clore at that time. Being researchers and stuff—and we’re interested in it, we wrote in an application for participation in their sort of steering committee at Prosser Experiment Station for their wine experimentation and wine making. We met Dr. Clore and a number of people that were involved in it. There was a fellow from Stuttgart University in Germany that had toured—came here for a tour, and I think that’s when we had—just after we had planted some grapes. We asked—when he was here—because there was a plant that we wanted to get—a nursery plant from stock at Prosser Experiment Station. That was Lemberger, which had never been planted in this area. It also had a—the guy from Germany, he said, well, he says, that’s the only plant that we allow to be planted in Germany that has a virus. But it’s unique to that plant. And it is completely different than leaf row virus or any of the other ones. I mean, when those leaves turn, it’s just brilliant orange and red out in the vineyard. Anyway, after that, Dr. Clore called me and he says, well, John, we just released these plants for cuttings to Lewis and White Nursery in Prosser. He says, if you want those, you need to call them and let them know. So I got on the phone right then. I told them, I says, well I’ll take all the plants you make. So we got enough for about two acres of grapes. As a result of that, we produced the first Lembergers in the United States, whatever that is. And it’s pretty nice wine. People love it. It produces fairly well and as a result, it’s a fairly—relatively inexpensive red wine. When you think about what we used to sell wine for and what they go for now, it’s—the dollar was worth a lot more and there was less cost in producing everything. Bottles were cheaper, barrels were cheaper and everything. When we started an American oak barrel cost about 250 bucks. That was cooped for wine coop. They had a lot of American oak barrels that were whiskey barrels, but they weren’t cooped as a wine barrel. A wine barrel has more curvature to it. Anyway, when they released those, I called and got the plants and we started planting those in our vineyard. We started, we had 70-some—80 acres out there. We produced, in the first year of planting, we planted about 12 acres. Then we kept planting more acreage every year as we had the money. Sell some wine, plant some more grapes. Make some more wine, sell some more grapes—[LAUGHTER] In about—well, in 1982 after we finished building our house, like I said, we built ten-foot walls in the basement so I could put wine barrels in the basement three high. [LAUGHTER] And it smelled pretty good down in that basement. [LAUGHTER] We also built, then, in the front side a tasting room—real nice tasting room. Panel and had some nice antique oaks countertops and— Franklin: Oh, wow. Williams: So we ran a lot of people through there in a number of years. That was the roots of it. Franklin: Do you still do private— Williams: And it just keeps expanding and expanding. My wife was pretty glad when got most of the barrels out of the building and had a little more room for things. She quickly occupied it, I think. [LAUGHTER] Anyway. Franklin: What was the—so you started—I took it down in my notes—1975, you started. What was the—you said you were one of five in the state, and when you finally started producing you were one of ten. What was the reception in the community to the winery? Was it a popular thing, or did people just kind of— Williams: Well, you know, I think soon as we opened up we started having customers and stuff. We actually opened up a small—in a garage that my partner built in West Richland. So we didn’t really have a formal tasting room, but we could taste wines there during special events. Eventually, in 1982 is when I started building the house that we have there on Sunset Road. Fairly sizeable house. I had a tasting room down there and stuff. So at that point, people started coming. Then other people. Then we entered our wines in a number of Washington competitions, and they were just grabbing all sorts of plump prizes at that time and people started to say, well what’s this Red Mountain place like? And then pretty soon other people started coming out there. Now you go out there and you look at it, just a field of green. [LAUGHTER] Just the—Aquilini, which is a firm out of Vancouver—and they, when they had the—Kennewick Irrigation District was planning on putting in the water system down there and they had already worked on it. And so they had the pipes in and everything. So they actually had an auction for about 650 acres that—excuse me—that KID owned out there. So we went to there and bid on two 80-acre pieces, but it just kept going up and up and up and up. We spent all day out there bidding and then they’d suspend the bidding for a while and then they’d start it, the next level bidding from where they had stopped previous. They weren’t starting over from the beginning. And eventually it was pretty obvious that these people were going to buy it all. And I think they bought it, and it went for $12,000 an acre, which is really a pretty good buy, because I had already sold land to Col Solare, and that was—at that time I sold them 20 acres plus an option on 20 if they optioned that within a year’s time. And it was for more than the one that I originally—so the option was going to cost them more. The first stuff went for—I think it was 20,000 bucks an acre and then they optioned the second one, it was 25,000 bucks an acre. It helped me pay off some of my debts and stuff. [LAUGHTER] Since then, there’s vineyards all over up there now. Franklin: Yeah. So you guys really helped to start something. Williams: Well, we did. It was one of those things that everybody—course at that time, too, in 1975 when we were saying, well we’re going to go out and drill a well and plant a vineyard, everybody says, you guys friggin’ crazy? [LAUGHTER] Because there wasn’t that many wineries in this state. And then some of the wineries that were in the state at that time have already gone broke or quit. So there’s probably—of the wineries that were there in 1980, I would say there’s probably 60% of those under the same owner or still a small winery or vineyard. Then the other thing is, there was five of us in the Yakima Valley, and Mike Wallace had his winery in Spokane—not Spokane, in Prosser. He was about the—he was the first one—actually, I took a wine-making course from Mike at CBC, and from there, the wineries started—well, we formed the Yakima Valley Winery Association. There were five of us that went together and wrote up the federal requirements for starting an American Viticulture Area. So there’s a number of things that you have to cover: climate, location, topography, soils and all that stuff. And mapping and that sort of thing. So each—there was five wineries and we each took a portion of the thing, and put it together and submitted. Helen Willard, out of Zillah, she was a reporter for—I think it was for either Prosser or Yakima or sort of both—reporter for quite a few little papers. She wrote up part of the history. So she was involved in it. Of course, her son—they have a vineyard up there and they used to sell all their grapes to—oh, shoot. Anyway, they’ve been around for as long as we have in terms of wineries. Franklin: Wow. Williams: That was it. Five wineries started in the Yakima Valley and now, goodness, I don’t know how many there are now, either. [LAUGHTER] Must be— Franklin: A lot. Williams: A lot, yeah. Franklin: You can do those tasting tours— Williams: And then now—we formed the Red Mountain AVA, which is a sub-appellation of the Yakima Valley. It’s in the same boundaries. There’s Horse Heaven Hills—excuse me, Rattlesnake Hills AVA now, and—I’m not sure if—there’s another one there that’s sort of—I think they’re starting up there. But I’ve known all those guys for quite a while. [LAUGHTER] I hardly—it’s hard to keep track of it when there’s so many wineries. Franklin: I bet. Williams: But one of the things that I think has happened—because in the first years, my partner and I, we knew what wines should taste like. And we were very critical of our own wines. And we said, well, if it’s not a good wine, we’re not going to sell it. We’ll dump it down the drain or whatever. Because we had other jobs. But it wasn’t worth our—the worst thing you could do is produce a wine and then have a bad reputation forever. And when there’s that many people doing it, it’s easy to get a bad reputation if you’re the worst one out there. But if you’re one of the best ones out there, you really get a whole lot more publicity and stuff. So it was—we put a pretty high goal for ourselves in terms of the wines that we produced. It was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun, and we drank well and we went—you know. Wrote off a lot of expenses because everything you did was going into that winery or that vineyard somehow. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Williams: I think I hocked everything I had at that time, but—it worked out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. Tom, do you have any questions? Tom Hungate: No. Franklin: Emma, did you have any questions? Emma Rice: [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Which one? Which one of these would you like to—all of them? Rice: Well, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So how do you think the wine industry has shaped the area? Williams: Pardon? Franklin: How do you think the wine industry has shaped the Tri-Cities area? Williams: Well, I think it’s had a big effect on it, because every place that you read, it’s wine, there’s wineries all over Richland and the Tri-Cities now. And I think that the big thing of it is, you’d be surprised—there’s people coming from all over. There’s people coming from California now to taste wines in Washington. I think the fact that we had the Red Mountain as probably one of the most acclaimed wine areas in Washington state is partly because Col Solare is there, but also we’ve just, over the years, had a lot of good press from people that were interested in doing wines here. Bob Waller, who died a few years back, and was a real wine—I mean he was the first—when he started, he didn’t know a friggin’ thing about wine. [LAUGHTER] But he learned it real fast, and was a good wine writer and really promoted the wines. Then the other thing that was very conducive at that time is the wine—support that we had from Prosser Experiment Station and the work they were doing up there in making wines. They didn’t really make wines to barrel age them or anything like that. But they made wines to see how the wine grape—the wines would respond to different grape growing techniques. And they did a lot of work over the years. There was a lot of information in planting, in terms of watering plants, in terms of maintaining the plant growth, and also in terms of varietal selection for the different wineries and vineyards and stuff. Franklin: Did the boom here—is it something that you thought was a real possibility that could happen, or was it kind of a surprise? Williams: Well, when I—I always had confidence that we would do something here, but it grew so fast that after that, I wasn’t very—didn’t have a whole lot of doubt. Because it took off. It really, within—by 1983, from going from eight or nine—eight to ten wineries—I don’t remember—in 1980. But by 1983 there were, oh, there was 40, 50 wineries in the state already. And then it kept growing, and two years ago—and I haven’t kept track of it. Two years ago, there’s over 800 wineries in the state, and I’m sure there’s at least 900 there now. I mean, every place you read, there’s a winery there someplace. Franklin: Wow. So I guess the last question’s kind of a shift in topic, but—what do you remember about segregation in the area before the Civil Rights Act? Because of— Williams: Well, you know, I think—there was a couple families that went to—lived in Richland. Their parents worked at Hanford and stuff. Franklin: A couple of— Williams: Yeah. So I think—I don’t think it was an issue, because the guys that were there, they were both super athletes and stuff. I knew a couple other kids, too, that lived in the area. I don’t think there was—there was definitely segregation in Tri-Cities, because most of the black people lived in East Pasco. Franklin: Right. Williams: And so that was, I think, already prominent there before they even started Richland. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. East Pasco— Williams: And the reason why I say that is because a lot of those people worked for the railroad, and the railroad was a big thing in Pasco in the early days. It moved from—I can’t remember the name of the pre-Pasco village. Franklin: Ainsworth. Williams: Yes, Ainsworth. So that was pretty much—the people that worked in—or lived in Pasco were different kind of workers than in Richland. And quite frankly, at that time, in those times, there was a lot of segregation. People lived there in where they lived in Pasco because of the segregation. Franklin: Right. Did you see the effect of civil rights legislation in the Tri-Cities? Did that have a pretty—a big impact on the ways that people— Williams: I didn’t personally see that, because, again, it was—our population of blacks in Richland were not that many. I know there were people in Richland. I just call them assholes—excuse me—bigoted people that I’d hear them talk about Pasco or stuff. But even the people—there was the few colored people that went to Hanford—or to Columbia High, I never saw—I personally never experienced feeling one way or another about them. I certainly didn’t feel like I was prejudiced against them. My dad had a guy that he knew that used to go fishing with, too, liked outdoor sports and particularly hunting and fishing. It’s hard to say. I just—I would say no, in terms of living in Richland. Franklin: Okay. Williams: I don’t know, in the early days of Hanford, there was a fair amount of segregation on the Hanford Project. Because they had different dormitories and housing for onsite housing for construction workers there. So I think it was pretty well segregated there. Franklin: And they had minstrel shows— Williams: But I only know that as more of history than having personally experienced it. Franklin: Okay. Williams: You know, when you’re at that age, you’re not—you’re just a kid running around the neighborhood playing kick-the-can at night. [LAUGHTER] Now that was the interesting thing. When I was a kid, we rode our bikes everyplace. We were never in fear of anything. The other thing, the Richland swimming pool had shifts. You’d go in there and swim for an hour, and then you’d get out, have to wait in the park someplace, and then you’d get back in the next hour after that. So it was not a very big pool, but there were a lot of people lived here at that time. So it was fairly restrictive of that. My dad had an old fishing boat, so in high school—and you know, boats weren’t then like they are now. So I think it had a 15 horsepower motor on a little [UNKNOWN] And the guys at BB&M that owned BB&M then had also a dock down there on the Columbia River, right there, right in front of the park down there at that time. So we used to go down there and hang on that and waterski off that platform off their boathouse down there on our little old 15-foot boat with a 15 horsepower motor on it. [LAUGHTER] And skis were wide, they were longer, so you didn’t really need a whole lot of surface area. Franklin: Wow. That’s really neat. Well, John, thank you so much. Williams: Oh, you’re welcome. Franklin: It was a really excellent conversation. Williams: Well, glad—hope you can edit all of my wows out of there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, you gave us so much. Williams: Okay. Franklin: You’ve lived a really fascinating— Williams: Well, I don’t have trouble talking too long. [LAUGHTER] Or too much, so. All righty, well-- <a href="https://youtu.be/nFJmibUsayY">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor 305 Building FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facilty) 200 West 300 Area F Reactor 200 Area PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962-1994. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Williams Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Metallurgy Viticulture Vineyards Nuclear reactors Segregation Description An account of the resource John Williams moved to Richland, Washington in 1944 as a child. John worked on the Hanford Site from 1962-1994 and opened the first vineyard on Red Mountain in 1973. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/01/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe14e4177541d86d726108ff0ae769395.jpg 09ca8e040f8702ef5a35ef159d767c68 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c057bb8e9f110352e26b93ab36a49ec.mp4 6baf716dfe1500e5c0f22fb821d2eb4a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Young Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Northwest Public Television | Young_John </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> John Young: R. Young. J-O-H-N R Y-O-U-N-G. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Robert Bauman: All right, thank you. And today's date is October 22nd of 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I'll agree on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Okay. Sounds good. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So let's start by having you tell me when you came to Hanford? What brought you here? How you got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: When did you come to Hanford—to work and Hanford, and what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: You want the whole story of how I got to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: It'll take me 15 minutes. I wrote a letter up to here after I saw an article in the newspaper saying they were looking for employees. And after that, they accepted me from the standpoint that they would find out whether or not I was qualified. And for the next two months, the FBI and other agencies went through my history and got information from my doctor and so forth. And in early June—well actually, yeah—they finally decided that they would offer me a job. Or they offered me a job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: And so where had you been living before you came here? What year was this, also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Where were you living before you came here, and what year was this that you moved here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh no, I didn't have any employee but here before. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: But where did you live before you came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Where was I working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Where did you live before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh, I lived in Albany, Oregon. And I worked there as a carpenter because my dad made houses. So anyway, when I found out that I was supposed to arrive on July the 8th, I started from home on July the 7th. I wanted to be sure that I got here. Now, something I should tell you now is that during that spring, the Columbia River was at its highest violation you might say, or amount of water, in history. And it had wiped out parts of Portland. And there were only two bridges on the Columbia River, in the United States. One was the Bridge of the Gods down by Portland, and the other one was a bridge up by Canada.[LAUGHTER] So I didn't have any choice of how to get here. So when I left home, I drove up to Portland on back country roads because the main roads up to Portland were all wiped out by the water. Got to Portland. It was 17 miles east to the Bridge of the Gods. And that was actually a very funny ride because the road I was on the south side of the river and railroad track were the only two things on that side of the river. And I could drive along there and look out over the top of the rails on the railroad, and I could see that the flood two feet below the top of the railroad. Anyway, I got to the bridge safely. Went over the bridge, and I knew that the road on the other side going east from the Bridge of the Gods grows gradually up the ridge on the north of the river and eventually goes over the top of it and go down into the Yakima Valley. And I got about halfway up that ridge when the engine on my car blew out. [LAUGHTER] And fortunately it was right at a little town there that had some place where they could fix my car. So I spent the rest of that day there while they were working on the car. And they got the car ready for me by 8:00 the next morning, which was the 8th. So I drove on up over the top of the ridge down into the Yakima Valley, because I knew that if I could get into Yakima, there's a main road coming from Yakima down here. I got down to the bottom of the hill there, started towards Yakima. And I got two miles, and they found out that there's three feet of water over the river—over the road, pardon. So I turned around, went back. And there was an industrial area there. And I found a guard there and said is there any way I can get down to here. He said oh yeah, go back up to the road to Yakima and then go east. And when you get down, about 30 miles, there's a bridge over the river. So I took it and went in to Richland, getting there about noon on the 8th, which was fine for my getting there. So I ate my lunch, went into the Federal Building--which was only a one story building at that time—and I found out where the manager of personnel--well, new in personnel were. Walked down to his office, walked in his office. And he had about five desks in there. He was on one of them right by the door. And he was busy working on it. So I stood there, I'll say, for over a minute when he finally looked up and saw me. So I reached out my hand to him and said who I was. He stood up. He opened his mouth wide. And he stood there for over a minute, utterly amazed. When he finally got himself together, he said, how in the world did you get into Richland? What had happened was the management of Hanford had concluded that nobody would get into Richland for the next month. And that's why he was so astounded that I got into town. There was a [INAUDIBLE] if you want to call him that and overlooked the fact that I was a westerner. And I can go anywhere in this country that I want to, because I was raised on a cattle ranch down in Central Oregon. And I knew where to go through the, I'll say, backwoods. And that's how I got there. So anyway, their question then became, what are they going to do with me? Because they'd shut down the orientation class for new employees, so I couldn't go to work out in Areas. What were they going to do with me for a month? Now the first thing they did is they got me a room out in the barracks in North Richland. And then they told me to report to the production scheduling office in the Federal Building the next day, which is a top secret operation. And the purpose of that office was to determine which tubes in the reactors should be discharged the next time they had an outage at the reactors. And consider that there's 6,000 tubes out there. They had a new calculation system because they had a calculator which was designed to do that calculation to tell them what the amount of uranium was, or the amount of plutonium was in those process tubes. And such a method of calculating did not exist anywhere else. It was a special calculator designed by Marchand. Well anyway, I spent the next month in that office. I had a copy of the manual for Hanford—it was a top secret copy. And I could read that and find out everything that went on in Hanford in their manual. And then at the end of that month, when they finally opened up their orientation operation, I went through that process. And then I went out to the 100 Areas to go to work. I was assigned for six months at B Reactor as an assistant, well, operator for the reactor. It was a training period. It's a General Electric process. Any time the General Electric Company—at that time anyway—hired a new employee that had an education, they would put them out into one of their operations or many of them to give that person training on what to do in the job that they're going to get. And when they got through with the six month part that I was out there, they then assigned me to day work out in the 100 Areas. And I spent the next 17 years out in the 100 Areas as a senior engineer, one of the few that they had out there. Now I had to earn that title of senior engineer. But I was working on increasing the productivity of the reactors, reducing the cost of operating reactors, reducing the amount of radiation well, affecting workers out there—things of that type, for 17 years. At the end of the 17 years, they started shutting the reactors down. So I resigned. Went to the 300 Area and joined several organizations down there. [LAUGHTER] You know, there's so many of them floating around there, it's funny. And I spent 33 years mainly working in the 300 Area. But what I did was such things as licensing nuclear reactors, seven of them on the east coast of the United States. Congress had decided that all of the nuclear power plants in the country should be licensed. And the AEC, when they got that, they said well, you should work in the East because we don't want any bias. So those seven reactors are spread all away from Florida clear up to Minnesota. And after that, that was just a typical action for, oh, about one year. I was still an employee here. And if you want to know what I've done for the rest of that 30 years I spent at Hanford, I've got it listed here if you want it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: This is something that I've had. I filled it out as appropriate just so I could answer questions of the type that you've made. And if you want to make a copy of this-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Oh, sure. Yeah, we can do that afterwards, yeah. That’d be fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: But you see there's—oh, what is it--about 15 boxes all in there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: I want to go back to when you first arrived in the area in 1948. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What did I do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: You first arrived in the area-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I just arrived in '40--well, you mean in the Northwest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: No, I mean in the Richland, Hanford area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: In Richford, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: What sort of housing did you have when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: There were in Hanford at that time, large buildings--some of them still exist--which had multiple rooms for people. And some of those buildings could hold as many as 25 people. And I was single. It was very handy from midtown. It's not out in the sandy places they talk about in this article. [LAUGHTER] But that sand, he talks in there so much—a couple of times anyway—actually was not Richland. Except for little locations where one building might be built. Most of Richland was grassy. And if you're in Richland, you're not getting any sand blowing around. And if you read their article there, they talked about the sand when there were on construction locations. Well that's normal throughout the whole state of Washington. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So what your first impressions of Richland when you first got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: When I first came in? I got a story for you that you're going to wonder if you want to publish it. I, like I said, drove into Richland on the 8th of June and got my lunch. Ate my lunch, went into the office there. And I guess I told you that this fellow said how in the world did you get into Richland? So from that time on, I was working. And I was working out in 100 Areas. The first six months, I was working at B and D Reactors. And my position was assistant shift superintendent. See, they had shut B Reactor down for, must have been four years because they wanted to keep it available in case they had to get some more plutonium for the military in a hurry. And that was the only time I was on shift. After that, my work was what you might call typical engineering. You can call it nuclear engineering if you want to, but it's general types of engineering—reducing operating costs, increasing production, reducing the radiation doses to employees, those types of things for 17 years. Ended up as a senior engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Of the different sorts of jobs, different parts of the Hanford site that you worked on, was there something that you found most challenging, most difficult, and/or something that you found sort of most rewarding about what you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I don't understand your question. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Well, you had at least a few different jobs. You worked in the 100 Areas, right? And then you worked the 300 Area. Where there certain things that you did that you found sort of more challenging, or more difficult than others? And were there certain aspects or certain jobs that you had that you really found especially rewarding, that you really enjoyed a lot? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: The main difference was that when I was working in 300 Area, the reactors were reactors of the types that were used everywhere else in the United States. The Hanford reactors were very specific reactors because their only purpose was to produce plutonium. Whereas the other reactors in the United States were primarily built to produce electricity. It's a different design. And it also had more, shall we say, more opposition by the public. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. And that's a subject that you might want to address, because the people who are supposed to be the experts on radiation generally refused to use the information which says that low level radiation is beneficial. That makes a lot of difference. That low level radiation is so beneficial. In my case, I got 15,000 radiation dose. All of it was low level radiation. There might have been some high level in there, but I can only tell you what the badge has, you know? [LAUGHTER] And that's something that you might want to mention in your articles if you publish them. There are numerous people here, particularly in Hanford, that refuse to recognize that fact that low level radiation is beneficial. And like I say, there are scores of documents that say that low level radiation is beneficial. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: You talked about your badge. I wonder if could talk about safety at Hanford? Did you have to wear any special clothing equipment of any kind to do your work? What sorts of ways was safety sort of part of what you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well, I was cleared for every type of limited information. I got that when I told you I went into that one office on the first day. That was a top secret operation. And top secret gives you access to anything, assuming you had a need for it. I spent—let's see, how long were we in Oak Ridge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Woman one: One year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: One year, yeah. I spent one year in Oak Ridge on a committee which had somebody for every one of the AEC outliers, you might say. And the purpose was to determine where to protect their materials could be manufactured if somebody needed them. In other words, if you want high level radiation dose or something. I was dealing with people from every one of the major AEC outsides. But I would have ranged all in the various types of work that involve radiation. For instance, I was a manager at preparing environmental impact document for fusion reactors. And that document was presented in a meeting to the international fusion organizations in Germany. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: About what time period was that? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh, my. Let's see. That must be about 1990. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: During your years working at Hanford, were the any events, incidents, events, special occasions, things that sort of stand out in your mind from your time working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: You mean the reactors involved? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Oh, could be, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah, we head one out in the 100 Areas. For essentially all of the reactors, when they milk the reactors, they—of course the reactors are made out of graphite. They ran tests on graphite and so forth, and they learned that they could operate the reactors with a fairly low temperature of the graphite. You get too high temperature and you know you might hurt the material. And as we started raising the power levels of the reactors out there, the graphite started expanding. And the result was that in some of the older reactors like B Reactor, the graphite expanded enough that it pushed the shields off the outside of the reactor. Well, push them apart you might say. And the result was that the radiation inside of the reactor was leaking out through the crack at the top of the far side wall on the reactor. And there was a line of radiation going out that crack out through the wall in the far side of the reactor and then up into the air. And the result was that there was about a 20 mR radiation dose on the ground outside of the reactor. And that's one thing I worked on. They went back into the files of the DuPont people. And by checking through those files, they discovered that if we raised the temperature of the graphite, the expansion would stop. And if you go too low, the graphite would reduce in volume. And so we had to go through a special study to try to figure out what this would do to the reactor. And the result was—you see, the normal tube in the reactor was straight through the reactor. But when the graphite started expanding, the tube went up in arc and came back down because the highest temperature graphite was in the center of the reactor. So we figured out what was the proper temperature of the graphite—of actually of the gas in the reactor. And we ended up with the top tubes in the reactor going in, going down, going up, going down, and coming back up and going out the back. That's the type of things you ran into doing something like those reactors. And by doing that, it sort of drove the people replacing process tube on the reactor having to figure out how to get the tubes in the [INAUDIBLE]--[LAUGHTER]--through the reactor. If we had not done that, eventually the reactor would have fallen apart. In other words, if we hadn't figured out what was causing the problem—because this reactor would just keep expanding, and finally that outside shield would fall over. Or we'd have to somehow rebuild the shield up there to keep it in place. That's just a typical job that you'd have. You might spend six months on that. I had another one. I was working with a fellow who is an expert on water purification. And see, we were cooling the reactors with Columbia River water. It had to go through the water plant to clarify the water to get the sand and what have you out of it. And when they first designed the reactors, DuPont had discovered that if you did not have the right concentration of materials in the water going through the reactor, the tubes were bending up into two inside the reactor. And in order to prevent that happening, they were use the sodium dichromate in the water on the reactors. One part per million or something like that, but it's still, we're spending about, well, over $1 million a year buying that material. And I was working there with a fellow who was an expert on operating water treatment plants. And we got together and looked at this sodium dichromate that was used as we said--and we were buying that by the railroad car load. And I think the total cost was a $1.4 million a year for that one material as I remember it. And we looked at the price of it. And we looked at the price of buying the two components for making that material. And we had enough equipment in the water plants that we could make that material, the sodium dichromate. So we bought the chromate and the sodium, and we cut the costs in half from about a $1.4 million down to $700,000 a year. So we saved $700,000 a year. That's the type of things you work on. All types of things you get involved in. For instance, when they built the reactors back in World War II, there was a shortage of steel. So many of the pipes, particularly the ones underground, were not made out of metal. And when you heat and cool the other types of pipes, they start leaking because they crack open. So we had to figure out how to solve that problem or reduce the amount of sodium dichromate getting into the Columbia River. We worked it out, reduced it considerable. Those things get a little complicated. I don't want to go through all the detail. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So it's involved a lot of problem solving? Your [INAUDIBLE] anyways right, problems with the reactor or whatever you would work on solving those issues. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: If there were problems with the reactors, then you would work on solving some of those issues, work on solving the problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah. In other words, you have really two plants there. One was a water plant to provide the water to the reactor. And then the reactor was the other plant. Now what you do with the water, what you get out of that, is just how you get it back into the Columbia River with a minimum of radiation. And you know, that raises an important thing that I haven't mentioned it to people here in the Tri-Cities. I kept records on what the radiation was in the Columbia River. And when we were running the reactors out there, we were running, you might say, tons of radioaction into the river. Yet the amount of radioactivity in the Columbia River here at Richland was essentially zero. It had disappeared you might say, or bee diluted if you want to put it the other way during the travel of the water from out there by the reactors into here. And when I see these articles in the newspaper about they're worrying about the fact that there's radiation out there in the 200 Area and it will leak out into the ground seven miles or something like that from the river, I'd be willing to bet that there wouldn't be much radiation getting down to Richland. And the other thing is that it would be low level radiation, which is beneficial if it does get down here. I don't know if you want to put anything like that in what you publish because the nuclear engineers don't want it to be published. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to Work what did you think of Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well to me, that was a typical job, In other words, I had to travel 35 miles to get to my work. But people do that all over the country. It was an interesting job because we were working on increasing our knowledge of the subject. It's different than running one of these dams out here where you're generating electricity you know. All you're doing there is pushing a button once in a while. But by doing the right things out there, we saved millions of dollars. And we also reduced, you might say, the effects of radiation on anybody by making sure they didn't get any high radiation doses. But the most important thing about it is that we were, you might say, at war with the rest of the world. As long as we had to make that plutonium and reap you might say, keep Russia at a distance. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about in terms of your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well no, other than the fact that once I went to work in the 300 Areas, I worked all over the United States. Because I happened to be, you might say, an expert on nuclear reactors. A good example is that the government decided they wanted to have every nuclear reactor, I'll say described, to be sure what it is and how much radiation so forth is involved. In other words, if they did that, they licensed them. And that was quite an interesting job, because I worked on seven reactors back on the East Coast. And of course, I worked for one year in Oak Ridge. And that involved all of the AEC facilities. Bauman I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experience with us. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well, always glad to be helpful. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young; I would like to see the facts published in your story that low level radiation is beneficial. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: I'm making these, we're making these available for anyone to look at, the [INAUDIBLE] stuff. Thanks again, appreciate it. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:31 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 193 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area B Reactor D Reactor 300 Area 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1940-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1940-1990 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Young Description An account of the resource An interview with John Young conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lito Ines Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: Okay. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history with Joselito Ines on November 6, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I wil be talking with Lito about his experiences working for the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Lito Ines: Full name is Joselito Ines. J-O-S-E-L-I-T-O. Last name, Ines, I-N-E-S. And I go by Lito. Franklin: Great, thanks, Lito. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. 0:00:35 Ines: well, it was my main background was hotel/motel management. A lot of my—that’s when I was pretty young, in my teens. I was approached by all my best friends to go and work at Hanford, because they said they pay more, and less hours. So I did. I signed up for the apprentice program for the operating engineers, local 370. That’s how I started with working out at Hanford at the 200 Area, as an apprentice heavy equipment operator. Franklin: Heavy equipment operator, okay. Did you need any particular background or training to do that? Or did they kind of just take you in the apprentice program at the ground level? 0:01:27 Ines: Yeah. The apprentice program is usually you have to take an aptitude test to make sure you know how to read, write, add, subtract. [LAUGHTER] You know, that kind of stuff. I mean, you just can’t get in there. And what I did is on that year, in ’79, early ’79, there was about 2,000 people that applied for this apprentice program, and there’s only ten people that’s going to make it. So I knew I didn’t have a chance, because my background is something else. And then I talked to everybody, and everybody was in construction and military and farm. Nothing. And for some reason, I got up in the top five, just on aptitude. Because military gets a discount. [LAUGHTER] And I didn’t have that either. But I made it to the top five. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. I want to rewind just a little bit. How did you come to the Tri-Cities area? When did you come to the area? Ines: To the area. Well, my grandfather started a farm here in Kennewick in 1950. So in 1950, my family was the first Filipino that settled here in the Tri-City area. Franklin: Wow. Ines: The farm that he had was in Kennewick. It’s called Canyon Lakes now. But that used to be our farm. My father decided to come because he passed away for a funeral. So when he came here in ’65, he decided he wants to stay here. And so two years later on—because he had to go on the immigration process and things like that—and two years we came in here, in ’67, and I was 15. Immigration there was pretty lax. So as soon as we got here, we got a green card right off the bat. 0:03:24 Franklin: So you came here from the Philippines. Ines: From Philippines, yup. Franlkin: Oh, okay, so your grandfather was already here, but your father and you were in the Philipines until 1967. Ines: Yeah, my grandfather actually came to the United States in 1923. Franklkni: Oh, wow. Ines: During the year where they took a lot of Asian, they took Japanese, Korean, I think even some Portuguese. The Chinese were already here because of the railroad. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Ines: But these are all the agriculture because what they did is they—the United States figured out that this group of people are good in growing sugar cane and pineapple. That’s why they all went to Hawaii first. That’s how he got here. Franklin: Okay. Ines; And then of course, they were in Hawaii and then they went to California. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Ines: And then they started the revolution for the union workers. The Filipinos started that, not the Spanish people. And then from there he moved to Union Gap. Then he came here in 1950. Franklin: Oh, okay, cool. And then your family, you and your family were in the hotel business until ’75— Ines: No. Franklin: Oh, no? Ines: Just me. Franklin: Oh, just you. Ines: I was in the hotel—my dad was an architect here at Hanford. Franklin: Oh, really? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: When did your dad start working at Hanford? Ines: Well, when we became citizens. Because at that time you had to be a citizen to work at Hanford. So he tried and applied here before ’71. That’s when we got all our citizenship. And they all hired him, but then they found out he wasn’t a citizen. So we had to wait until ’71. So he became a citizen, all of us, in ’71, and that’s when he started. But I didn’t start till later on. Franklin: And what did your dad do for Hanford again? Ines: He was a senior architect here at Hanford. Franklin: Okay. So I assume he had gone to school for that back in the Philippines? Ines: Yes. He was a—actually had two things in the Philippines. He was an architect and a patent examiner. So he worked for the government up there for the patent office. Franklin: Okay. And what were some of your dad’s duties as senior architect at— Ines: Well, they just build all the structures here for the Hanford Project, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. And then you waited—it wasin ’79 then that you came to work at—and you worked for JA Jones? Ines: JA Jones was the first company I worked for at the 200 Area. Franklin: Right,a nd they were one of the major— Ines: At that time. Franklin: contractor—construction contractors, right? Ines: At that time, yes. Franklin: At that time. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: So kind of like walk me through a typical day for a heavy equipment operator. 0:06:15 Ines: Well, the first thing we’d do at Hanford, you know, as everybody knows, it’s probably the safest place to work when it comes to safety. Because that’s all they think about, is safety. So we have our safety meeting, usually consists of at least half-an-hour. Because at that time, we all meet together, all the different crafts. And all the different crafts have different duties and different tasks. SO we talked about everybody’s safety topic for that day, what they’re going to be doing and what kind of safety, or accident they could get into so we could talk about it before they get in there. And then after that, then they split us up and then the boss will tell us, this is where you’re going, this is what you’re going to run, and this is what we’re going to be doing. And you’re going to be working with this kind of craft. Because my craft at Hanford was just a support group. Because I normally worked for a certain craft. I used my machine to do the lifting, whatever it is, for them. Running cranes, I have to move things around for them and things like that. Franklin: Okay. And do you primarily worked—early on you worked in the 200 East and 200 West areas? Ines: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Did you know of any other Filipinos working for Hanford at the time? Or— Ines: No, just my family. Just like I said, we were the first Filipino family here in the Tri-Cities. [LAUGHTER] I mean, growing up, we were it. You know? So if you say, hey, do you know those Filipino family? That’s us! [LAUGHTER] Franklin; What other—you mentioned that the first thing you’d do would be the safety meeting with other crafts. What other kinds of crafts were represented? Ines: Well, they had plumbers, they had carpenters, they had laborers, they have ironworkers, sheet metal workers, insulators. I don’t know what else if I missed. Yeah, I think that’s— Franklin: And what kind of structures did you—do you have any examples of any specific structures that you helped put up or helped support the construction of? Ines: Well, a lot of the buildings we built was in support of the old buildings. You know, because in those years, all the reactors and all those other—it’s already built. So the only thing we were building is we were building sometimes more buildings for the new people, office people, engineers that come in so they have a place to work. Or laboratory for the scientists to work on. And a lot of the things I did, too, in those years was digging up the Tank Farms. Because in that years, we were building a lot of Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ines: So we were building a lot of—digging a lot of those, and that’s where we find a lot of old—[LAUGHTER]—old things that’s not in the record! Franklin: Oh, okay. I’m wondering if we could talk about—can we talk about that a little bit? Like, what kinds of— Ines: Well, sometimes we’d find like vaults or things. I mean, cans that’s not labeled and then we’d always have, we call it an RCT, someone to see if there’s any radi—and most of the time they go out there and the scale would just go, brr! [LAUGHTER] And we don’t know what it is. And then they’d look at their history, see if there’s anything written. Of course there’s none. And then what they do, is we can’t touch anything, so they’d have to call somebody, if they’re still alive, that worked in that area. And then they’d come down—[LAUGHTER] So all these 90-year-old people. [LAUGHTER] They all go in there, and they’re kind of like, yeah, I remember I dug that, and we buried this and that. But you know. That was it. [LAUGHTER] But we’d find all kinds of stuff. One time we were digging a big hole for the tank, and we had a clamdigger and my RCT was sitting on the bank. It was a deep hole. And I was down there, because one of my jobs was to make sure that the elevation was right, we don’t go too deep. And this clam bucket, it’s attached to an old—well, in those times, our machines were really old. [LAUGHTER] And it’s a clam bucket that opens up and then he drops that and then when he picks it up, it closes and brings out the dirt. It’s the old machine. Now they don’t—all, everything’s hydraulic. So one time I was standing there and all of the sudden he dropped that thing and he hit something solid, like dunk! [LAUGHTER] I looked, I go, ho, that thing go! And then I looked at that—the RCT was on the top of the slop. He stood up, he looked at his Geiger and he started running! And I said, hold it! What is this? Am I supposed to run, too? And I said, come on, you guys, let’s get out of here! Because I guess they buried it. And he was on top, and this was in the hole. And it buried his needle. So he said, go! And then of course he sounded the alarm and then of course all of this Hanford Patrol, I mean, everybody—the whole place was packed, and they shut the whole thing down. And just like I said, they don’t know what’s in there, because it’s supposed to be clean. That’s why we’re digging. So the same old scenario; they had to call somebody who’s about 90 years old and say do you remember what’s in there? And that’s the same thing it is. He’s in the thing, he goes, yeah, we dug that thing and we put something in there. But yeah it’s like a vault or something. But he doesn’t know what’s in it. Because most of the time the only one that knows is whoever the head dudes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, the other guys would just bury the stuff. Ines: Yeah! They told them to bury that thing in there. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: There’s a lot of stuff out there. I worked at that 618-10. Franklin: I was just about to ask you aobut that, yeah. Ines: I mean, I knew that’s what they were dumping—they’re dumping that all over the place. Franklin: Right, and 618-10 was trying to take care of that stuff that had been left out there and not really well-documented. Ines: Yeah, they’re not documented. The thing I did there, the last project I did is I built an area where they can practice on how to dig these cans. The reason why is, if you open these cans accidentally, it explodes and it gives out gas, and it gives out flames. They don’t know what’s in those cans. That’s the worst part about it. They don’t know what emits. It could be deadly poison or just radioactive; they don’t have a clue. That’s what 618-10. But the other job that I just did out there was an experimental thing at 324 Building. If you guys have heard about it; it’s the most highly deadliest building out there at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah, and that’s just up here in the 300 Area. Ines: [LAUGHTER] Yeah! Not too far! Franklin: And that’s the one that’s still up, right? Because they haven’t— Ines: They can’t. Franklin: --figured out yet—yeah. Ines: Yeah, they can’t, bevause if you go in there, like, if you open the door, you’re probably dead. That’s how hot it is. They call it an IDLH building—immediate death to life and health. So if you open that, you’re dead. Franklin: Wow, I’ve never heard that acronym before. What is it, ID— Ines: LH. Franklin: IDLH. Okay. Ines: Immediate Death to Health. [LAUGHTER] 14:12 Franklin: Doesn’t sound good. Ines: Immediate Death to Life and Health, that’s what it was, yeah. Franklin: To life and health. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. Ines: Yeah. And the thing of that, what we were doing is, we were doing the experimental stage of how to get to it, and eventually we’re going to do everything robotics. So that’s supposed to be a five-year job for us to experiment and do the, you know, everything in robotics with the screen andeverything. But everything failed. [LAUGHTER] All of our experiments failed. We were there for about six months, and of course, those were all engineering. See, everything at Hanford is budget-related, whether the government gave you, this is for this, and that for that. So the engineering budget was done, and they all failed. So they laid us off—[LAUGHTER]—because we had all the money to do the experiment for five years—and gave it back to engineering. But I think they just started. I think—yeah, I can’t remember who’s doing it. I think it’s Apollo and something. It was in the paper. Franklin: And they’re using robotics to go inside the building. Ines: Eventually, when we go, when we get there. Right now they’re just starting, just prepping the area. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah. That’s really interesting that you mentioned that they had kind of bring these older retired guys out to explain what’s in these stuff that you would find, because it kind of sounds like making them an ad hoc oral history with them of, like, what’d you do when you buried these things out here? Ines: Exactly. That’s basically what they asked. And of course, we had the Native Americans out there, too, so if we dig up any kind of bones or— Franklin: Did you witness that? Did that happen while you were working in heavy equipment? Ines: You know, I ran into one of them, but he was out at Hanford. He was just across the river. We were doing a bike path. [LAUGHTER] And all of the sudden, the skeletons started popping out. Of course, you know the American Indians used to bury their dead next to the river. Franklin: Right. Ines: So we couldn’t do an excavation because every time we’d do something, you know, they’re coming out. I think it’s from—I don’t know what the reason why. They’re just popping out. So finally they said, well, can’t dig anymore. What you’re going to have to do is you’re just going to have to go on top of them. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we did! It’s amazing. I don’t know why they didn’t at least excavate it and move it or do something. But it’s Native American Indians; they have different things that they do. Franklin: Yeah. I imagine you would’ve had an archeologist on staff when you were doing a lot of these projects. Ines: Yes, always. We have an archeologist and—there’s another department up there, they just sit there. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know what kind of job they have. They said, yeah, that’s our job! WE sit there and watch you guys, make sure you guys don’t dig out anything. And another one—oh, I think it’s environmentalist. We have another person usually that just stands there. Usually they use college kids. And they just sit there and they look for, like, even if you disturb like little birds, or little eggs. You can’t touch anything! [LAUGHTER] They look at all of those things, so once it’s there, it’s roped off. You can’t do anything. That’s why we don’t want to see those kind of stuff in there, because it’ll delay your job completely. THere's a lot a lot a lot of wild animals up there. One time I was walking from one trailer to one trailer, I almost got stampeded by elk. I mean, like, at least 100 of them. I go, where did they come from?! [LAUGHTER] I go, wow! But they know—they’re not scared of people up there, those animals, because they’re used to it. Sometimes we have like babies that will be up there. Baby elk, baby deer, will just be walking up there. Franklin: Right, because they’re all protected on the reservation. Ines: They’re protected. Franklin: They can’t be hunted there. Ines: Yeah, and for some reason, I think they know. [LAUGHTER] Like the elders tell them, oh, we’re okay here. [LAUGHTER] Go beg. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that’s always—I do tours with the Manhattan Project National Historical Park, and we’re out on Site, when we’re lucky, we see them, and if we’re really lucky, we get close. I think about people that go up to the mountains to hunt and pray that they get really close—you know, half as close to an elk as we do. Yeah, it’s really—Hanford’s kind of a—I think you alluded to it, it’s kind of a wildlife refuge in many ways, kind of accidentally. Because they never—it’s just the nature of taking all that land away for plutonium production that made it kind of a wildlife sanctuary. Ines: Yeah, well, you know, with this radioactive thing, you never know. I mean, they always say that this area might be clean. But wildlife, they fly in there. They eat the stuff, and they go everywhere. Franklin: Right, they’re not bounded by that invisible line on the map. Ines: Yeah. They don’t get a badge. They don’t get a dosimeter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: You always had a dosimeter when you were out there, right? Ines: Yes. If you ever work—if you work in that type of environment, of course, you have to have one. It depends on the level of exposure you’re going to get; you have different types. Franklin: I wanted to ask you, how long were you in the apprentice program? How long of a program was that? Ines: Apprentice is usually about four years. Franklin: Four years. Ines: Kind of like going to college, but you get paid. [LAUGHTER] That’s another good thing about it. And you can make mistakes. Unless you kill somebody or something. [LAUGHTER] You’d probably get fired. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. Where did you move next after you worked in the 200 East and West Areas? Ines: I just kind of, basically, I’m dispatched through my union. So after—in construction, you know, you start something, it’s eventually going to end. You’re going to finish. So after that ends, they usually move you to another area. Franklin: Right. So you were a project-based—I mean, as the needs of these different projects determined, that’s where you went. Ines: Yes. And then of course after we built Hanford 2, which is Energy Northwest, I think around that time, it’s all cleanup by then. But I remember when I used to see all those—they used to have like a helicopter and an armored truck. Every time they produced a plutonium, they’ll be out there in the 200 Area. Oh! They built some more! [LAUGHTER] Because they’re superly guarded with a helicopter and an armored guard and a caravan of security. Franklin: You’re talking about when they would ship out the finished product, the plutonium, the product. Ines: Yeah. Well, something—they moved them around. It depends on where, it’s either going to go to the finishing place, and then—I didn’t even know this until later on, but they have what they call a railroad building. There’s like, I think, four or maybe six buildings, and what it is is that’s where, after they produce some plutonium, and they’re in the railroad cars, and they store them there to cool down. I’ve never seen them, for years and years. Because they’ve got big mounds of dirt. I passed by them millions and millions of times, until I worked for a contractor, what we did is we had to re-roof all the old buildings here at Hanford. And so we had to re-roof these. And of course it was radioactive so we can’t get inside until everything is clean. But they were there. I mean, they even had a big—I didn’t even know, there’s a big, huge crane in there to lift up the—I don’t know what they’re lifting, but they’re usually in the cart. And what they do is after they build it is I guess they park the cart there and get it cooled. And then once it’s cold, they transport it to wherever they want it to go. Franklin: Wow. Ines: Yeah. That’s a lot of—and then you know, like I worked at the 100-K East and K West. They’re about a mile long, apart. I didn’t know there was a tunnel that goes from one end to the other end. That’s a mile long. There’s a lot of tunnels in there. [LAUGHTER] One time we had—they said they were going to blow up the elevator. This is when we were cleaning up at K East. They said, we’re not going to work that weekend, because they’re going to blow it up so they can eliminate it. And of course when you blow up things, you don’t want to—it has to be a controlled blast so it doesn’t affect the whole area. Well, you know, all of our reactors out there, they used to use asbestos shingles, because it was supposed to make it cooler, I don’t know what it is. But that’s what they used for the walls. So Monday we came back to work, right? [LAUGHTER] It was funny. We’re all—our eyes were that big. They said in the meeting, they said, the blast was—everything was safe, everything was good, nothing happened. And we kind of looked and said, well, how come the shingles are all over the place? And that’s asbestos. And just like that one thing that we cleaned, K East, the pond, because that’s where they used to cool all those spent fuel, they said, when they first detected it was leaking, I don’t remember exactly what the wording was, but the guy who was explaining it said, this is the wording, they never really claimed it. They said, it wasn’t enough leakage—they said something about the leakage was not enough to make it warrant to clean it. But then he told me, yeah, it was leaking like thousands of gallons per day. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we’re doing, we’re cleaning the whole thing. It was pretty, pretty, pretty hot when we got down there because we had to dig next to the wall and it’s at least 900 millirems or something like that. But we still had to go there. What we did is we had a dozer, and what we did is, to get close to it, we built barriers, like dirt. I pushed it and then once I pushed, we can’t stay there. Then I have to back up all the way as fast as I can. Bcause before I Got there, there was another contractor that was there, and I noticed all their machines were all parked on the side. And they’re all contaminated. I mean, they had to get—you can’t clean them, once it’s penetrated, it’s history. And they said they have like five people that got burned out every year. I mean, their allowed radioactive exposure is gone for the whole year. So they have five. So when we got there, there was only two of us that went in. I said, how you guys going to do that? There’s only two of you. So that’s how we did it. We just went there and came out, and we put barriers, dirt barriers, so we’re always being shielded. And the only thing we got was three. Which is pretty good. Franklin: Three what? Ines: Millirem. Franklin: Oh, three millirem. Ines: Yeah, which is basically not much. Franklin: Yeah. How long did you work out at the K Basins for? 0:27:40 Ines: On and off. I think the first time I went p there is when I built a couple of buildings attached to, next to the ponds, so we can extract the old spent rods. So I built this building so they can transport it, you know. They bring the rod out—what year was that? I can’t remember. But they said that building can only be there for five years. So what it is is they extract that rod on the crane, because I had to build a crane, and then there’s a truck that comes in—this is inside the building—so everything is inside and then it loads up to thet ruck, and then it went up to the—I think they used to call it the smurf building, the blue building up there. You know, where they’d get sealed again or something like that. That was the first time I think I worked at K. But I worked at all of them. I worked at, you know, even D and DR. Franklin: And what did you do there? 0:28:49 Ines: I think that was during the cleanup already. We were cleaning things up. So I asked them, I said, how come there’s a D and a DR? And they said, this is called DR because it’s D Replacement. And I said, what happened to the D? Well, they had a meltdown. The D had a meltdown, so they had to—kind of like what happened to Japan. I don’t know if they realy controlled it. But most of them are cocooned nowadays. We all cocooned them. I even worked at—because my dad used to tell me, he used to go to, I think it was J or A? J? I can’t remember, where they have a lot of experimental stuff with animals. You know, they— Franklin: Oh, F. Ines: F. Is it F? Franklin: Yes. Ines: Yeah, they said, yeah, you should go there. They have all kinds of animals in there, and some of them are smoking weed, some of them are doing this, some of them are being injected by radioactive. And then I had to go clean that up. That was very interesting, because they buried a lot of stuff in there where it was supposed to be clean, and they buried stuff in there, like dead animals. Franklin: Right, the pigs, right? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: The pigs and the dogs. Ines: Yeah. And it stinks. Franklin: Yeah? Ines: Yeah, I don’t know why they didn’t get rid of it properly, because when I was trying to clean that area, you know, make it—we’re supposed to bring it back to American Indians—Native Americans. And I started to vlean it and I was coming up with all of these vaults and tanks. And sometimes I’d open one of them, oh, it was terrible! So we’d always have to call somebody to check out what’s going on. But it’s different. Franklin: So basically the process that you were involved in for cleaning was really just removing the contaminated earth and then where did that go, and what did you replace it with? 0:30:52 Ines: Okay. Well, basically, what we’d do is when we’d—I think the big scenario when I did, they called it the Big Dig. They usually used me for—I’d do a lot of experimental stuff. I’d do the first thing. And so what we did is we had the Big Dig, and that was at B. The hole that I dug, there’s two of them. It’s like four football fields on the bottom. And it slopes out, so it’s a pretty good size. There’s two of them. Becaues by the time I—and what they do, is we separate—we have people that are checking which one is clean, which one is dirty. So we segregate them. So the one that’s dirty, it gets hauled out. And that’s where all of this trucks that you see that have linings and tarps, those are the contaminated ones. Usually the one that’s clean is usually what we put back to backfill. And then they find a place where they can get some more dirt that’s clean. There’s a lot of dirt out there. I even built what they called a mulai-mulai. Have you ever heard of mulai-mulai? Franklin: Yeah, the ridges. Ines: The ridges. Franklin: The upwellings. Ines: Yes. Franklin: They’re leavings of the Ice Age floods. Ines: So that was at N. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: And my job—are you ready for this?—is to rebuild the moolai-moolai that was taken up. Franklin: Really? Ines: Yeah! And I said, so—and the mulai-mulai is an Indian name. It’s an Indian name that means, god made this. So I had to rebuild this mulai-mulai. And the engineer got the design so I know where to start and the height and the dimension. So finally I told them, you know what? By the time I build this thing, it should be Lito-Lito, because I made it! [LAUGHTER] Not mulai-mulai. So everybody was laughing at me. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. I’ve never—how many did you build? Like, how—do you have an idea, an estimate— Ines: How many mulai-mulai I built? Franklin: Yeah, how long did you work on that? Ines: Well, I can build—you know, they’re not that big. They’re probably less than this building, I mean this studio. They’re not that big. Some of them are a little bigger. But they’re not—I’m guessing probably the highest is maybe ten feet. Franklin: did you have photos to work from or--? Ines: No. Franklin: How did you approach that? 0:33:38 Ines: What do you mean by photo? We have plans, you know, blueprints. Is that what you meant? Franklin: Yeah, I mean, I’m wondering— Ines: Yeah, it’s engineered. You know, it’s surveyed, the outline is surveyed, and then they give—it’s kind of like building a golf course. Have you seen a golf course? You know, they have like mounds. Same thing. Kind of like, if you want to make a nice garden in your yard, you know, you make like a pattern, that’s where you start and you build up. It’s the same thing. It’s surveyed. But nowadays everything is satellite surveyed. SO you just put your rod, and that’s how high it goes. Franklin: So were these mulai-mulai that had been taken away for the construction of N Reactor? Ines: Yes. Franklin: There are still some natural ones. Ines: Yes. There are some still in there. Franklin: That’s just so interesting that they would re-put that there, because now it’s a manmade mulai-mulai. Ines: Lito-Lito. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And you would know. It’s just fascinating to me, because you would know—I mean, you would’ve restored it, but you would know and it would also be—that’s really interesting. Ines: Yeah, isn’t that amazing? Well, you know, in the Philippines we have what we call a chocolate mountain. Have you ever heard of that? Franklin: No. Ines: Kind of a similar thing. There’s millions of them up there. But they call it chocolate mountain because of the Kisses. You remember the chocolate Kisses? That’s why they call it a chocolate mountain. Franklin: Oh, interesting. Ines: Yeah, very. Franklin: I want to go back to a couple things. So these railroad car areas, you mentioned where they would store the hot railroad cars. Ines: Yeah, the one they just— Franklin: Were these like large tunnels, or— Ines: Oh, no. Franklin: Especially if it had dirt on it— Ines: Well, no, the dirt is a barricade to hide those buildings. The buildings are pretty big. They’re probably the size of Floyd. Franklin: Okay. SO it was a building. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: But you couldn’t see it from the roadway— Ines: No. Franklin: --because it was obscured by a—and was it manmade dirt? Ines: Yes, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ines: It’s all manmade, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Wow. Ines: Yeah, they were hiding it. Franklin: And how many did you say there were? Ines: I think there were at least—I’m guessing—it’s been a while—either four or five, because, you know— Franklin: And what area were they in? Ines: They’re in between East and West, 200 East and West. Franklin: Okay. Ines: So that’s why—I’d never seen it! Because you go through, when we go to the H, it’s one way, and then the other way is you go to the West area. You pass by—it’s in between, it’s right over there. Franklin: Interesting. Right, because the cars would take the fuel from the reactors to the 200 Area, drop it off, processing, and then I guess, I’m assuming, that’s where then they would stage those rail cars to let them cool down. Ines: Yeah, that place used to be railings all over the place. Sometimes when I’m doing some cleaning up, I’d end up with, oh, there’s railroads here. And they’re all interconnected, all of those reactors. Franklin: Right. Ines: Yeah, rails was the form of transportation. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, for the fuel, yeah. I wanted to ask you about your time spent working at WPPS in the early—what was that like to work on a commercial—was working on a commercial reactor different than working— Ines: It was very, very different. Because, you know, it’s not really a—it’s not like the Hanford, the government job that we had, because it’s kind of outside of it. What it is is you had, oh, we had different contractors. There’s so many different contractors working on Hanford. You only had one. This was you’re working with like 12, 20 different contractors. So, everybody’s different. So like our meeting would be just on our company. And then our place—it was really, really different. Because that was the year when we had a lot of people that came form—I don’t know why, there were a lot from Texas. They were Texas—I mean, everywhere I looked, they were from Texas. And then of course like the parking lot is full of different trailers. But the one thing that really stuck to me when I was working there that was really, really different is they used to have portable brothel. Franklin: I’ve heard things of this nature about WPPSS construction. Ines: You’ve heard, and it was the truth. It was the truth. There were trailer—there were campers out there. And that was just so—oh. But I was young, plus I didn’t have enough money. [LAUGHTER] And those guys—I mean, a lot of them make—I mean, we make tons of money out there. But that was really something else. That they—ad then another thing they do, is they all have this gambling—everybody’s—each group has their own just gambling thing. Like in this one cuhte that goes from the bottom all the way to the top—because I run the cranes—and most of the time I’m not busy, I run the overhead cranes. One of our crane guys runs the chutes that goes from the bottom all the wy to the top, because there’s no crane there. So he has like a little portable crane. So I went to visit him, and then I looked in that chute, and I looked down there, there’s this big, huge circle. Kind of like a target. It had like different size rings in it. And in the middle is dirt, and I know there’s a lot of coins down there. And I go, what’s that for? He said, oh, yeah, you throw your coins in there and you put your name, and at the end of the week, whoever’s close to the center takes the whole pot. I said, you’re kidding me! [LAUGHTER] And then they even have contests of rolling your coins on the dirt and whoever gets the farthest wins the pot. And I’m not a gambler, and I don’t really play too many game cards or anything like that, card games. I learned a lot from that place. [LAUGHTER] And this is another thing. This is earlier. My first day there at work. In our building, I walked in there, it’s probably half the size of this. And as soon as I walked in the door, that whole wall, that whole ceiling was filled with penthouse pinups. I go, wow! You can’t do that anymore, because it’s illegal. Franklin: No, you couldn’t. Ines: [LAUGHTER] So, I walked in so I just kind of stood there because I’ve never seen some of them. So I was looking, and then finally the boss—what are you doing there? We’re having a meeting! I said, I was looking to see if my girlfriend’s in here. [LAUGHTER] It was different then. Franklin: Yeah, it really kind of sounds like the Wild West of construction. Ines: It was. As a matter of fact, sometimes when they’d tell me, well, I don’t have nothing to do. Yeah, you don’t have nothing to do? Just go walk around. What do you mean, walk around? Just walk around. Just explore. [LAUGHTER] Really. Yeah. But then one time, they told me, they said—just like I said, I run the overhead cranes, and one day they come up to me and said, we need somebody to do the crane test on tower something. And I was new, so I was just kind of looking around. And they said, nobody else volunteering, so I guess Lito’s going to do it because he’s different. So I said, okay, I guess. So I went. And I went in there, and as soon as I went in there, they got bleaches built on three sides. Now all of the sudden, it’s kind of like a boxing game or something. SO they all got filled up with all these people in suits. What’s going on? And then a camer shows up. Just like that. So it was a big thing. And then I have to deal with an ironworker, because they’re the ones that used to do the signals all the time for the cranes. So finally I looked at the thing and then there’s this big, huge obstacle in the middle that I know if I run the crane northeast, east, west and south, whatever, I’m going to have to cross that or go on top. Well, you know, you have the big hook, right? And I know I’m going to go in there and it’s going to crawl and drag on top of that. So I’m going, well, that looks unsafe. And so finally I said, no, I was going to go ask him, to make sure he checks it. So finally I got to the control and it was red-tagged. You know, the thing where they put tags if there’s something wrong with it. If it’s red-tagged, you can’t touch it. So I said, well, I can’t touch it. And the ironworker said, what do you mean, you can’t touch it? It’s red-tagged! That means there’s something wrong with it or whatever. You don’t know; I don’t know. And so he got mad at me, and he said, I’m going to talk to your boss. Blah, blah, blah, we’ve got all these people out here, these are all big dignitaries, they’re supposed to see both of us do the work. And I said, well, I’m not going to do it until you do that. He goes, oh, okay. And finally they got a superintendent—they called somebody, and he signed, and said, okay. So I finally got it started. And I said, now another thing you need to do is you need to check on top of that thing, make sure there’s nothing on top. So he got mad. You know hwo construction people, they cuss and they yell and they throw stuff. I said, I don’t care what you do, but check it. He said, argh! It’s clean. I said, okay. So of course, he’s the one that does the signaling. So he’s walking, he’s checking the thing, he’s giving me the signal, then final yit’s time to go and drag the big hook on top of the thing. Of course, I can’t see the other side. And I was doing it, and he keeps saying, yeah, keep going, keep going. He was on the other side. Guess what. There was something on top of that thing. And it fell, almost hit him. And I said, there you go. [LAUGHTER] He goes, argh! It didn’t hit me. [LAUGHTER] And there was all kinds of stuff in there. That’s amazing, though—and then, eventually after that thing was built, one of my high school friend that was in my wrestling team, he became a lawyer. Of course you know at Hanford when they were building that thing, a lot fo people were punching in at two, three different time clocks. They did that. And so this high school friend of mine—and that’s what he was—he just got out of college and he said, my company’s auditing the Hanford, Energy Northwest for what they did. So I told him, I said, it’s true. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. People are punching in at different times. I mean, it was just amazing what they did there. Franklin: You mean people were turning in like multiple—like claiming— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: --like that they’d worked different hours, or— Ines: No, no, not just—they were punching in on three different time clocks. Not just— Franklin: Not just the one, but— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: And then they would get paid for three times the— Ines: Yeah. I was there, too, when they did that. You know, when people were saying, they’re time-clocking in but they were saying that they worked—I was there, because I knew who they were. Franklin: Wow. Ewre you still with WPPSS when the default happened and the whole thing shut down? Ines: Oh, you mean the Hanford 1 and— Franklin: 1 and 4, yeah. Ines: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Were you there when— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: I wonder if you could describe that. How did people take it, and what happened to the work? Ines: Well, basically, all the people that was involved in it was devastated because they lost their job. I didn’t really care. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Why is that? Ines: I was just an apprentice. Because I know eventually I’m going to get a—what I did is they transferred me to build an airport, someplace out there by the dam? I think it was called Electric City. Franklin: Okay. Ines: So while they were hassling that problem, I was working someplace else. And I hate—I don’t travel. So that’s why I didn’t stay that long. I said, there’s nothing here! So I came back. Franklin: Okay. Ines: Yeah. Because the problem with working with unions, they send you this and that, and you have to take it. But now that I’m a little bit senior in the ladder, I can choose. And of course, I can hassle for my work. Because I have so much background; I’ve worked with this, this, this, this. I usually just call them up. Franklin: And so after you came back, you spent most of your time just working on cleanup. Ines: Cleanup. Franklin: Right? Ines: Yeah, after that, it was after the—when they were doing the Hanford 2. After that, it was—and it was tough security then. When ti was top secret. I mean, you can’t go—my first day at Hanford in the security at Wye Barricade, and I noticed, why is everybody leaving their key in the trunk? Well, because you’re supposed to open the trunk, they check all your lunch bag, they look underneath, they got the dog. You know, you have to—it was security. And I was wondering why they leave—all those people leaving their keys in their trunk. Then I finally realized, so they don’t have to go out. [LAUGHTER] Nowadays, you can just push a button. But I was wondering about that. I said, those guys are stupid, leaving their keys in there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about the reaction to the shutdown in the late ‘80s when Hanford was told to stop producing. I’m wondering if you can talk about how that affected you or other workers in the community. Ines: It didn’t affect me at all. You know, because, like I said, they always sent me out—one of ym biggest job is, I was a tech engineer, so I usually do the layout, I do the surveying, that kind of stuff. So I’d do all of that kind of stuff. And that’s in demand. Everywhere you go, they always need somebody on that field. That’s why I kept doing that. Mots people don’t like that, because you’re responsible. [LAUGHTER] You’re the main dude. I mean, yeah, that’s where we start, that’s where we dig, and that’s where we put thigns. People didn’t like that. A lot of people that are in construction, that’s the reason that they’re in construction: they didn’t want to go to college. So the job I had was almost pretty safe at that time. They just want to run the machine. You don’t need to know how to add or subtract or some things like that. The people, I mean, in general, the Tri-City community was devastated because that’s when a lot of people moved out. That’s the best time to buy a hosue. That’s when I bought my first house, is that era. Because everything was cheap. The house that I bought was in the market for over two years. So I got it dirt-cheap. Franklin: Did you buy a house here in Richland? Ines: Kennewick. Franklin: Kennewick, okay. Ines: Yeah, I always lived in Kennewick. Franklin: Okay. What do you want to remember about the Chernobyl incient and how that affected Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Ines: Well, I think that was just kind of like a wakeup call for us here, because it can happen here. But most of the people will tell me, oh, Hanford is safe. They said, everything is—you know, they tell us everything is safe here. Everything is—but I’m sure Japan was the same way. But they brainwash you a little bit. Franklin: Yeah? Ines: Tell you, oh, it’s okay here. Just like, well, I was working at the Vit Plant. So you remember aobut the collapse of the tunnel? Franklin: Yeah, I was out onsite. Ines: Onsite? That was at 200 East. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: Well, the Vitrification Plant is just the other side of the fence. Well I was there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Ines: So when it collapsed, I didn’t even know. I was there in my rig, and I said, why is everybody running? [LAUGHTER] You know, we always have false—we always have drills. So finally I said, is this a drill, or is it for real? So I called the radio, I said, for real! I said, oh! So you’re supposed to shut everything off and go to the nearest building, take cover. So I did. Which is close to the gate. Which is, where the tunnel is, you can see it from where I was. Well, I’m diabetic. And so I was there for over two hours. Because we stayed there for a long time. Of course, we have to turn off all the air conditioner. So I was hot. And of course, there’s no food. So it’s not good. SO finally somebody from our main building said, you know, if you guys have any diabetic people make sure you have him here because we have all the things you need, like water, whatever. So I said, well, I guess I’m going to go. And they let me go. Eventually, what, three weeks ago, a month ago, they said that there was contamination release. And they let me out. [LAUGHTER] To go to this other building. So now I’m having problem with my chest. I’ve been coughing lately. So I don’t know, hopefully there’s nothing. Franklin: Yeah. Wow. That’s a really— Ines: It’s really—I was at K—was it K? No, it was D. Could be N. [LAUGHTER] I’ve done all—but I was backfilling this trench that goes from what they call the dam that dumps off the cooled water—it’s supposed to be cooled and cleaned water—that dumps out into this trench into the river. It was like 40 feet deep. It’s deep. The concrete’s been gone. They took it off. So I was backfilling it. So I’ve got this big huge truck. You’ve seen those big trucks? With big, huge tires about the size of this building. And then they dump the dirt in front of me and then they push it towards this hole. So one time I was, in the morning, I had this guy that does the thing, I was helping him take out the ropes so nobody will go through there. We usually put a big berm at the end of my job so nobody will fall in. So I was helping him put the ropes. So he set his Geiger counter, and I was telling him, why don’t you guys once in a while survey that? Make sure what we’re doing—oh, it’s—they swear, it’s clean. It’s clean-clean. This guy looks at me and goes, yeah, see if you can just help me. So he puts his thing on the ground and then we were moving that and all of the sudden his machine went [TRILLING]. He looked at it, and he picked it up and said, you didn’t see that. Okay. [LAUGHTER] That’s a lot of stuff out there that’s really weird. Frankli: What would’ve happened had you had seen that? Would they have had to stop work? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: IS that, you think, the reason for some of that behavior? Ines. Yeah. Yep. The same thing out at Hanford, you know, besides Hanford. If you find a big dinosaur bone, it’ll shut the whole job. That’s your livelihood. That’s everybody’s livelihood. Franklin: Right. But it’s also—in the case of bones or burials or cultural sites, though, it’s also a resource that was just discovered, right? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: There’s value in that thing that was discovered. Ines: It’s a different industry. Franklin: There’s a real tension between— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Right, the project—the construction forces and then the cultural forces. Did you ever see—were there ever any big disagreements—any real tensions that erupted in any of the jobs you were at, between like cultural people and like construction people or kind of— Ines: no. Franklin: No? Okay. Ines: Not really. I’m sure they—after they find out, they probably hash it out someplace and they probably yell at each other. [LAUGHTER] But they don’t show us that. Franklin: Sure. Let’s see here. And so, ah, so you’ve really just kind of been—and you’re still working. Like, you’re semi-retired? Ines: Semi, yeah. Franklin: Okay. What does that mean? Ines: That means I’m not working that much. Yeah. Franklin: Okay, but you still are like— Ines: I’m still—I can still go. Franklin: You’ve done some work on the 324 recently? Ines: 324—well, no, that was a couple years ago. Franklin: Oh, a couple years ago, okay. Where was the last place that you worked? Ines: The Vitrification Plant. Franklin: Oh, right. With the tunnel, earlier this year. Ines: The tunnel, yeah. Franklin: And what were you doing out there? Ines: At that time, I was running what you call a vacuum truck, because we can’t use big machinery to dig stuff and rip everything out, so we used this—that’s why just—why are we running this? This is a truck? It’s supposed to be Teamster. Look at it, it has a wheel. But we run it. And it’s pretty neat, because it sucks everything. It’s amazing at what it does, but it doesn’t ruin anything. Unless you keep jabbing on something. But it’ll even go through those what we call, kind of like a light concrete, it’ll penetrate it. Franklin: Wow. How many reactors did you work on cocooning? Do you remember? Ines: I think basically all of them. I did all of them, because— Franklin: What was the process for that? Ines: Well, the process, first you have to clean all around it. There’s a lot of contamination. You know, when they’re building—when they were doing the reactor itself, they used to be all kinds of chemicals. You know, like ammonia and all kinds of stuff. The process is you have to clean around it first. Then you had to do—that’s why we had that big rig, too, is we were looking for—I can’t remember what chemical that is—and it’s weird, I never seen it before-but if it gets contact with water, it turns green, like a lawn. It’s really—it’s bright green! That’s why sometimes when we’d get done, the next day we’d come back and say, ho, there’s green stuff in there! So at least we know where it’s at. Just like—they gave us a perimeter where to dig. When we start getting done, we saw this one area, the slope is still green. So it needs to go farther that way. There’s a lot of contamination. Because they used all kinds of defunct chemicals to supposedly clean those railroad carts and things like that. And they used all kinds of stuff. One time I was in B, I found a whole bunch of boron, boron balls. That’s what they used to clean the tubes for the reactor. I dug a bunch of those. And I go, ho, bowling balls! They’re nice, perfectly round, white—I mean, it’s white. It’s kind of—hey, there’s all kinds of stuff in there. Franklin: And then you would have to—when you went to do the cocooning, were all the support buildings still there? Ines: No. Franklin: Like power houses and— Ines: No. Franklin: Oh, okay, so those had been-- Ines: Yeah. You work out the perimeter first, and you take all of those things out. Franklin: All the support buildings. Ines: All the support buildings and all of the sudden it’s just the reactor tiself. Franklin: And then you kind of—and then what’s the next—do you remove the roof, or like, how do you get that—because now it kind of looks like a polygon. So how do you get from the big chunky reactor building down to that polygon? Ines: Well, that’s what they do. Just like I said, we start from the outside, we take all of the support building and part of the different building is part of the support building of that reactor. The only thing that’s left there is actually the casing of the reactor. And then, of course, that’s when they put the dome in there. I don’t know what—and they tarp it [MUMBLING] Franklin: Cool. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Just a couple more questions. Kind of larger-scale questions. I wanted to ask you, what were some of the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Ines: Hmm. To me, it’s probably getting all those reactors clean. That’s the biggest ting. Because that’s a big—that’s basically what our mission is, to clean everything. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: That’s our challenge, and we did it safely. We all went home everyday, none of us really got hurt. That was the most challenging things. And then fo course, the reward is I survived it. We all survived it. And then now we got all this monuments that we could show the people. Franklin: What do you mean, monumnets? Ines: Well, you know, the cocooned reactors. We could show the people the history of Hanford. Franklin: Right. Ines: Instead of just flattening everything out. Franklin: Yeah, and well, now there’s the B Reactor Museum, too— Ines: Yeah, I was there. Franklin: Part of the park. Ines: And we cleaned that. Hopefully they don’t say—kind of like, well, how the South are tearing down the monuments. I hope that doesn’t happen. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that’s always sbeen an interesting connection to me. I wanted to ask you if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Ines: A lot of secrecy. It’s basically a lot of paperwork. And just like what they said before, you can’t talk about your job up there. Franklin: Was that true even in the ‘80s and ‘90s? You felt like that in— Ines: Ah, it depends on where you’re at, see? I mean, if you’re working where they produced—because I remember it was just right here, 300 Area. I didn’t evne know—and that was late. And we had to clean a basement. And I walked in there, and it’s an old, old building. You know, those big, like semi-round buildings. And it’s a shop. It’s a machine shop. So I walk in there, and I go, this is where we’re going to be working at? Yeah! So I go walk in there, and then as soon as I walked in there, there’s a door, kind of like that. And I opened it. And as soon as I stepped in there, the whole place lit up. I said, whoa, what happened? What did we do? You know? They got sirens, they got all those rotating lights and then somebody came. And said, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I’m supposed to work here. And I told him what room. And of course, I don’t know where it’s at. He said, well, you can’t just be—you have to have a special badge. I said, oh. And so finally, I worked there for a whoel week and this always happens. You have to wait. And every time I go in there, I notice everybody—they have like desks and they have all kinds of stuff, and every time we go through there, they have this big canvas or cloth and they cover whatever they’re doing. And I go, hmm, that’s odd. And then it’s kind of weird, too, but by the time I got to the stairs, it was deep. It was at least 100 feet deep. My first day there, there was lockers, old army lockers, there’s lockers all the way around that thing. And I was curious, so I start opening those lockers, and they still have unifroms, but from the Army. That’s still in there. It was odd. And then, the only thing that bothers me is on the roof, you know, like Star Wars, they have that ray gun, that goes, bzzt. And once in a while it does that. It goes, brrrrt. And I go, what? Are we in an experiment or what? But I didn’t think anything about it. So my last day there and after I got done, we didn’t have to exit in the same place. We had to exit in a different place. So we had to wait. So finally, I asked the guy who was my escort, I said, you know, today’s my last day here. I just want to ask you something. What in the hell are you guys doing here? I said, what are you guys hiding? He said, well, you know, we’re with the defense department, US defense. I said, what are you guys doing? He said, we’re researching plutonium warheads. [LAUGHTER] I go, I thought you’re not supposed to be doing that anymore. [LAUGHTER] It’s an old building. Like I said, it doesn’t even look—it’s those—but, you know? And the front of it is a machine shop. So they’re still doing it, the last time I saw that. But most of the time, all of them are gone. Another thing, my first tme here, I used to see a lot of those silos. They have holes in the ground, they have rockets. And they told me about it, but since I run around with my machines, so I drove in there. Because, what they told me, usually, in the middle of the field, there’s a bunch of trees? Tha’ts where they’re at. It’s pretty obvious, because the whole place is desert and then you see these trees around it. And it’s like in a circle or rectangular thing or square. So I went in there, and there it is. There’s silos in there. Franklin: Right, yeah, I heard those used to be anti-aircraft batteries before they were—yeah, the Nikes, right? The Nike missile silos? Ines: yeah. Franklin: My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Ines: We made good money. [LAUGHTER] WE made good, good money. We made good money working at Hanford. Because, you know. And everything is—and it was good. It made the Tri-Cities. Because without the Hanford Project, I don’t think the Tri-Cities would be this big. But I know the Hanford Project wasn’t the only industry here, ebcase one of the big things we have here is agriculture. Franklin: Sure, yeah. Huge agriculture. Ines: Yeah. And you know, without the Hanford, too, we couldn’t have gotten Battelle. Battelle is one of our biggest—my dad used to tell me, he said—because he’s the one that used to build the buildings here, and everything had to be approved. He said, you know about Battelle? If they want a building, they get it just like that. [LAUGHTER] The other corporations, no. It has to go through the proves. Battelle, yeah, if they want something, they’re going to get it. Bcause that’s where all the research was at that time. Franklin: Yeah, that makes sense. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Well, Lito, thank you so much— Ines: Thank you. Franklin: --for coming and talking with us. I really enjoyed your stories. They were great. Grade A. Ines: Different, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Colorful is the word I would use. Ines: IT’s not like working in Disneyland. nd. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Washington State University Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area Hanford 2 Energy Northwest 100-K East K West Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 57 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joselito Ines Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Lito Ines started as an apprentice operating engineer for the local 370 working as a heavy equipment operator. He immigrated from the Philippines at age 15 in 1967. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/6/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F99bf6416dfe576c46dbcbb1001023759.jpg 4676c74b09d2c7af2e4ce59f792542c4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3049ab6d2e24c396c3492efac8ecc593.mp4 02df9a4e32472997cae175080babcd6a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mr. McDonald Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph C. McDonald Description An account of the resource An interview with Joseph C. McDonald conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb9d99dbe34829b228f289708724b0bc3.JPG 67b815e354f07cfdcb4bb5cdc870a2f2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0c24d9d36a9d1aadff8a145d38874c8f.mp4 1b2eaeabc4d03bc6668819d7d9650844 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathy (Brouns) Harvey Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Kathy Harvey on June 29, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Kathy about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Kathy Harvey: Full name. Franklin: Yes, please. Harvey: Katherine, K-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E. Helena Brouns Schiro Harvey. Franklin: Okay. Harvey: Okay. Franklin: Yeah. You were born here, correct? Harvey: I was born here in Richland, mm-hmm. Franklin: And so your—when did your parents come to Richland? Harvey: My father—after the war. They both came after the war. My dad came—I know he interviewed for his job here during that big flood that you see pictures of, often. Franklin: The ’48 Flood. Harvey: Yes. He came then for his original interview and then came to work then, about that time. Franklin: Did he come when it was flooding? Harvey: Yeah, he talks about coming for his job interview, and he got off the plane and they had to drive out to Benton City to get to Richland, because it was all flooded. Franklin: And he still took the job. Harvey: He still took the job, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Well, he didn’t want to stay in Oklahoma. That’s where he was working. Franklin: Ah. Ah. And what did your father do—what position did he interview for? Harvey: He was a research chemist with, I guess it was GE then. Yeah. Franklin: Mm-hmm. And was that his background, chemistry? Harvey: Yeah, he was a chemistry—he had a PhD in chemistry from Iowa State University. Franklin: Oh, wow. And then when did your mother— Harvey: Well, probably after the war, because she was in the Army. She was a nurse. She went to Japan after the war. I think the day she finished basic training, the war ended. Franklin: Oh, wow. Harvey: And so then she was sent over after the war, during, I think they called it the occupation. She was there for I don’t know how many years. When she got out of the Army, she came to Richland, because her parents had moved here during the Manhattan Project. Franklin: Oh, so your parents met here. Harvey: Here, yes. Franklin: Not before. Harvey: They met here, because my mother’s parents had come out here, and I don’t know if they came after the war ended, to work. I believe it may have been. I don’t know if my grandfather actually helped build the Manhattan Project or if they—I can’t recall, if he came after for a job. But her parents came out from Wisconsin and they brought, I guess, you know, three of the kids. There were four kids in the family, and three of them came. So two of them graduated from Richland High School. So, they must’ve come when their kids were in high school, I guess. But my mother was the oldest, and she was already gone and moved out. But then she came back here after the Army, because she was discharged and now her parents were here. So she came here to live with them. Franklin: And how did she meet your father? Harvey: It was a blind date, from what I understand. My dad lived in one of those boarding houses that the single guys lived in, down by, I guess it was that big flat area where the hospital, Kadlec Hospital, was. I remember seeing those places. He lived there, and his roommate I think was Jerry Saucier, who also worked out at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah, that’s a name that’s familiar. Harvey: Yeah, okay. They met somehow through Jerry, and possibly my mom’s brother, Bud Neidhold, who—there was something about them hooking up this date. And I do recall my mother’s sister, who is still alive, said that my mother was a rowdy. She was 30 years old, she’d been in the Army, she’d been—had a wild life. She liked a good time. In fact, all of her pictures of her time in the Army, there was young, handsome men hanging around her, most the time. She had this date with my father, who was like the most decent person she could ever go out with. She had spent the afternoon out on a boat with some other construction worker, and she came home drunk, and she had a date with my dad that night. Her sister was furious at her, because she said, this is going to be the nicest guy you ever met and you’re ruining it! And she was so mad, she put her in a cold shower and filled her full of coffee and sent her out on the blind date, because she didn’t want her to mess it up with this nice man. Somehow he must’ve been impressed. So he stuck around. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Harvey: So he was this quiet, sedate, chemistry guy and she was this wild partying animal. But somehow she settled for him. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. And did your mother ever work out at Hanford? Harvey: Yeah, she did. She was a public health nurse out there. Franklin: Public health nurse. Harvey: Yeah, she worked in the industrial health stuff. They hired their own nurses then. Franklin: Right. Harvey: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: And when were you born? Harvey: ’54. Franklin: ’54, okay. And so tell me about growing up in Richland. Harvey: Well, it was very odd, looking back, although at the time we thought it was completely normal; we thought that was the way the world was. And then when you look back, you realize, oh, that was really strange. You’ve probably heard this before—you know, all of the dads went to the Area every morning on buses. And we didn’t know what they did. They just went to the Area and did their job. And they came back on buses in the evening. And they didn’t talk about what they did. Some of them were engineers, which we thought was odd, because there were no trains around. Some of them were technicians, which we didn’t know what meant. And then there was the people like my dad who were chemistry scientists and we didn’t know, what did that mean. And they never talked about what they did; there was no conversation ever about it. But we didn’t care; we thought that was completely normal. The other interesting thing was, because nobody was from here, very few people had family in the area, other than themselves. And of course we didn’t—I didn’t think of this until later—every summer, in our neighborhood—because there were lots of families with children our age; there was a pack of us. Every summer, the families left and drove to the Midwest on road trips to see their grandparents. Because nobody had grandparents in the area. So that was an interesting thing, that everybody was from the Midwest. And we just thought that was normal. When you read other kids’ books about having family around, we thought, that’s odd. Now, I had my grandfather and one other friend in our neighborhood had a grandmother that lived in the area, but they had come there because they were there. So that was an odd thing, too, that we thought was normal. One of the oddest things was that it was completely flat; there were no tall buildings. We thought that was completely normal, too, and we didn’t realize there was a reason why there were no tall buildings. The hospital was flat. When the Federal Building was built, it was a huge deal because it was the first elevators we ever saw. And it was only so high because you couldn’t be high enough to see out to Hanford. So they kept the height down, is what we were told. Franklin: Is that why--? Harvey: That’s what they told us. That was the word that got out. And one of my friend’s mothers worked in the Federal Building, so she was in the know. It was limited to, I don’t know how many, seven stories or something. But the reason why, it couldn’t be tall enough to look out at Hanford and see what was going on. So everything was very flat. There were no elevators; there were no escalators. There was two stores that had second floors and you walked up the stairs to them. That was very odd, too. And, of course, it was dusty and dry, and the dust blew and stung your legs and the dust storms would come in and mothers would yell, close the windows! Put towels under the windows! To keep the dust out. Franklin: Even in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Harvey: Yup, yup. Because right around town, it was green right in the city. But we were over on the west side of the city, and you were right on the desert line. So the dust came in, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Harvey: The other interesting thing, looking back, is the wildlife: there wasn’t any. That may have been normal at the time, because there was a lot of pesticides used and DDT around that time. But there were no squirrels. There were no crows or blackbirds. Chipmunks. The only snake you saw was a rattlesnake once in a while that would sneak into town. Very few spiders. And the only birds I remember were a few robins now and then. But when you read children’s storybooks about wildlife, we thought that was odd, because we didn’t have that. There was badgers—stories about badgers out at Badger Mountain. The boys would go out there and shoot them and hunt them, but I never saw one. I never knew anybody who ever had one, that ever got anything. Because there was no wildlife. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Yeah. Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: How did your parents become involved with civil rights issues? Harvey: Well, the story—this is, again, my mother’s sister, I think she was the one that told me this, she asked my mother one time, how did you get involved? Because in their families, nobody else was. It was not anything that they were raised with. But my parents were Catholic, and they were very involved with Christ the King parish, and Father Sweeney was there then. There was a CFM, Christian Family Movement, I think it was like a Catholic married couples’ family, like a prayer group or something that would get together once a month, and there were small study groups in people’s homes. And I know my parents did this. We had people from the parish would come over for an evening and they would probably do a Bible study, something like that, and talk about Christian family life. My aunt Dode told me that when she asked my mother, how did you get involved in civil rights, why did you do this? She said, we were in the CFM movement and we spent time with couples talking about Christian life and living Christian values as a family. And we, Dick and I, we felt like this was something that we needed—we wanted—we had a passion to do something rather than just talk about it. And we looked at what could we do? What would Jesus do? What was the thing we could do in Richland? And that was why they chose civil rights, was that, we can work on that. That’s going to be our passion that we’re going to go with this, because that’s where God was sending us. That was kind of what got them into it, from what my aunt Dode said. They did it, they came home from a meeting, and maybe there had been a discussion at the meeting about African Americans or civil rights or black people, and my parents probably spoke up and said something and realized they were a minority and they were going to move from this prayer group to find a more action-oriented group of people that were willing to fight for social justice. Franklin: Where did they settle? Or, where did they—when they decided to act, where—how did they do that? Harvey: What did they do? The next thing I remember is that they quit having the CFM group and instead they started going to meetings in Pasco, in east Pasco. Because there was nothing much, there was nothing going on Richland; there were no black people in Richland. So, they must’ve connected—I think CORE was pretty active then, or it was a group over there. They became very involved in CORE. I remember hearing lots of talk about CORE. They would go to CORE meetings, we would have CORE meetings at our house— Franklin: And that’s the Congress of Racial Equality. Harvey: Congress Of Racial Equality, mm-hmm. And then the NAACP came in there, too. I don’t know which was first. Shirley might remember all that, because that’s where she met—my parents met the Millers then, through that group. And they met the Slaughters. But the Slaughters came later. I don’t even know when the Millers came to town, I don’t remember that. I just know that whenever this happened—which you might be able to see by the file, by the minutes of the meetings of what years my father was the secretary of the group. I was probably in junior high level then, because they couldn’t have done much before then, because there were so many of us kids that my mom and dad couldn’t have—we had too many little kids running around the house. So I remember it, probably when I was in junior high, they started getting, or maybe fifth, sixth grade, they started getting into it. They would go to meetings several nights a week. They were going to meetings or there were meetings at our house that they would attend. People started coming around, we started meeting black people coming into the community. And then slowly they must’ve identified black people in Richland, because then we started—there was the Jacksons, which you’ve probably heard about from Wally Webster and Robert Jackson. Yeah, they became very close with the Jacksons. In fact, Mrs. Jackson became my brother’s piano teacher. So we were very close with their family. I don’t know, I mean the Mitchells were there, but we weren’t close with the Mitchells because they were republican. From what I understood. They also were very involved with the democratic party. Then it kind of went into the democratic party from civil rights, it kind of evolved. Franklin: So they were republican before the civil rights era— Harvey: No, no, my parents were never republican. Franklin: Oh, no, the Mitchells were—that was the— Harvey: Yeah, there was something about that, that they were republican or—you know, CJ was a businessman, and he was more, from what I heard from my parents, and from what I learned, because I was friends with the Mitchell kids, too; I went to school with them. You know, their family was focused on business. Taking care of his family and having a successful business. And not—they weren’t going to speak out on social justice. He was focusing on his family and his business. And my mother, she was pretty radical and if you didn’t believe the way she wanted you to believe, she let you know about it. Franklin: But you were friends with some of the Mitchell children. Harvey: Yeah, in high school. Because then we all went to the high school. And then I met—my sister was in class with the oldest one, and then I was in class with Nestor. And then my brother—I mean, they were the same ages as us, so we were all in the same classes. We knew each other. Franklin: Did you ever see anything in high school, any kind of discriminatory treatment or adverse treatment? Harvey: You know, I personally didn’t. I’m sure it happened, and it was probably that more subtle, that it wasn’t blatant. In our high school, at Richland High School, there was a small—there were not that many African American kids. They hung out together and they had a club, I think. We were friends—I was friends with them, mostly because they hung out right near where my locker was, and I knew them because I knew the Mitchell kids and the Skinners? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Harvey: Okay, the knew the Skinner kids because my mom was real close to Eddie Skinner; she was kind of in our neighborhood area. So I knew the Skinner kids real well and I knew the Mitchell kids, and then the Thurmans. Have you come up with that name? Franklin: I think I’ve heard that once. Harvey: Okay, they actually were Catholic and they came to Christ the King and lived in Richland. I remember that they were one of the first black families that moved in. So we were close friends with them, because they were Catholic also. Well, any black family that came to Richland, we became close friends with because there weren’t that many of them. So, out of this group of African American kids in the high school, probably half of the families were friends of our family. So, you know, I knew them. And I’m sure there was discrimination going on, but I don’t remember seeing anything blatant. I’d hear more about it from my mother, and it wasn’t in the school, it was more with the older kids that were being treated roughly by the police or by the courts or something like that. Particularly, I remember the Skinner kids. There were some older boys that I used to hear about getting in trouble. Franklin: What kinds of civil rights issues were the focus of CORE and of NAACP? What was the focus? Harvey: What did I hear the most of? Well, housing was an issue. That was a huge issue. I don’t recall Richland—I mean, Kennewick. The housing in Kennewick was the huge issue. That was the one that my mother got involved in. You’ve probably heard the story from the Slaughters about them getting their house and, of course, we didn’t know what anything was going on, but we heard later that my mother went with Mary Slaughter to look at homes. She would pretend she was the one renting the house and get the landlord to say this would be fine. And then she would turn to Mary and say, okay, Mary, will this work for you? And then the landlord would be trapped. So I know there with the housing in Kennewick was the big issue. I don’t know, in Richland in particular. I know there was a lot of political stuff that I don’t even remember, because the issues—we used to hear about issues but I can’t really think what they were. But we just went along with them. There would be picketing, there would be rallies, and the kids would be making the signs. We’d have, in our basement there’d be all these posters hanging out, and us kids would be down there painting the signs that would say whatever they were. I remember, though, the one that my youngest brother, Tom, who still lives here, he remembers—because he was younger; he was in grade school. There was a white supremacist Ku Klux Klan guy coming to talk at a rally in Richland. And I don’t remember the guy’s name, but he was pretty well-known. My mother had a sign—she carried a sign that my brother painted. She had told him what to paint, and it said—his was name was Clark, because it said, Ku Klux Klark, you’re whistling in the dark. And she got arrested for that rally and there was a picture of her in the newspaper holding that sign. She got arrested and I don’t think she spent time in jail. But I remember seeing that picture of her in the paper. My younger brother who was a kid was with her at the time, but I don’t remember his picture. He could tell you more about it if you want to talk to him. Franklin: Do you remember around when that was? Harvey: Well, Tom was born in ’61 and he was probably seven or eight years old maybe. Less than ten, I think. Franklin: Okay, so like 1968. Harvey: Yeah, probably between there and the ‘70s. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. I’ll have to see if I can— Harvey: Yeah, he was—I can find out the guy’s name, because my brothers remember who this guy was. Franklin: Sure. Harvey: He was a Ku Klux Klan guy from the South that came up for some white supremacy rally. And I remember, this was a huge issue. Anytime they could make a stink about something and bring focus to civil rights issues, they did. Franklin: Your—who? Harvey: My parents and their group, the group. I just remember a lot of this, rallies, a lot of letters to the editor, letter to the senators. I remember letters to Senator Jackson and Slade Gorton, I remember letters to him. And they were getting us kids to get involved and stuff and write letters whenever there was some perceived injustice going on, which there was, I’m sure. Franklin: Do you remember any other notable picketing or rallies? Harvey: You know, I’m thinking, there were so many, and I didn’t go to a lot of the rallies. We were put together making signs for them. And then the rallies would happen—I don’t know why I wasn’t there. Maybe I was in school, maybe I was out doing high school stuff, independent, maybe I was working by then. I don’t recall that. No, I’m sorry. I don’t remember what the rallies are. Franklin: No, that’s okay. Harvey: And then evolved until voter rights issues. That was another big issue, too, was getting people registered to vote. I know I did do a lot of that, canvassing to get people out to vote. I did a lot of that stuff, too. Franklin: : And was that mostly in east Pasco? Harvey: No, that was—I remember doing it in Richland, mostly, in my own neighborhood area. Just around Richland, going from door-to-door to get people to register to vote. And our parents would set us out to do that with some of the other, the Miller kids and the Jones kids, Sabrina and Junior Jones. I remember, we had lots of stuff we were doing with them. The Slaughter kids. We’d be out doing that stuff. Franklin: Who were some of the important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Harvey: In this area? Franklin: Yeah, in the Tri-Cities. Harvey: The names that I heard, Robert Jackson, I heard a lot. Dallas Barnes, I heard. Ernie McGee, and he passed away, but he was a name I heard a lot of. Herb Jones, until he left the area. Norm Miller was big. My dad. The Slaughters. There were the Pollards, too, have you talked to them? Franklin: Mm-mm. Harvey: Hope Pollard. The Bauersocks. Franklin: The--? Harvey: Bauersocks? Yeah, they’re friends with Shirley. Phyllis and—hmm. Shirley—Andy would know how to get in touch with them. And the Pollards were there. You know, if I look through all the notes over there, I would see all the other names and remember them. But you’ll see them when you look through there, you’ll see the names of people, yeah. Franklin: Sounds good. What were some of the notable successes of the civil rights movement here? Harvey: Well, getting black families into Kennewick was notable. And I remember getting the Thurmans into Richland. That was a big issue. When the Thurmans moved to Richland, that was big. I don’t know if there were any black families. The Jacksons came, and the Thurmans, and the Mitchells. And then the Skinners came. If I look through my high school year book, I’d see all the other ones that were there, but I can’t remember off the top of my head. Just getting people there. And they were good people; they were good kids. In school, they were well-known, they were popular, they were—people respected them, liked them, from what I could tell. I think one of the things that was really noteworthy was the presence. Because in my circle of friends, we lived in, of course, a white middle-class neighborhood in one of the government houses. All the people around us were just white middle-class people from the Midwest. They didn’t have any inclination towards civil right or social justice. And here my parents came in, they brought this to the forefront. I think one of the most noteworthy things was educating the other children that we were friends with. Because there were six kids in our family, and we all had a lot of friends. And the friends all hung out at our house a lot, because our home was one a lot of people came to. It was a very open home, and my mom—the door was always open. There was lots of kids around all the time, the neighbor kids running around. And my mom was very vocal and she talked a lot about what was happening. It was the process of educating and spreading the word out slowly. It wasn’t doing big things, picketing, making a big name for yourself doing public speaking. My parents didn’t do that; they were more the behind-the-scenes workers. The influence they had on the people they met day-to-day, because you kind of slowly infiltrate the thought process of those people. My friends now still talk about the influence my mother had on them and my father had on them to change their thinking and make them look at civil rights as something acceptable. Because what they would hear from their own parents or from the television in this white middle-class neighborhood was that was an issue that was somewhere else. During the race riots of the ‘60s, those are troublemakers, they’re dangerous. As the Black Panther movement and some of those, like, those are really bad organizations. But from my parents, and being around my parents, they learned that, no, those weren’t. And my mother tried to join the Black Panthers, that was another funny thing she did. Franklin: Really? Harvey: Oh, yeah. There was something about the church, instead of giving money to the parish, she wrote a letter and said her funds were going to Black Panthers that year. She sent a letter to them with a membership and wanting to join the group, I think it was in Chicago. Well, they wouldn’t take her. They said, no. They sent it back and said that—I don’t know what, that was what I heard, that they didn’t let her join. But she wanted to join all those militant groups. She got angry. She had a temper and she would get pissed off and angry and want to do these things. But the fact that she did that influenced all the children that hung out at our house. They were young kids from grade school all the way through high school, because they were all there. So that was probably a huge—I would say that was a huge influence that they had, not just on us kids, but on the non—the kids who weren’t coming from families like ours, that had no other exposure to this. Franklin: Right, kind of raising awareness of— Harvey: Yeah, mm-hmm, throughout the whole community. So we’d go to school and we’d talk in our classes and my friends would talk. It became—I think it brought awareness of what the issues were, especially in Richland, because you weren’t surrounded by other cultures to be exposed to, to see that there was—you didn’t see discrimination, because there weren’t other cultures to discriminate against. Franklin: Or for the few African Americans in Richland, especially those in Pasco, it was so much more kind of informal racism— Harvey: Yes, yes, yep. Franklin: --or, what’s the word I’m looking for? Beneath the surface. It wasn’t outright like Jim Crow of the South; it was subtle. Harvey: Yeah, very subtle, yeah. Very subtle, yup, mm-hmm. Franklin: Did your parents spend much time in east Pasco with the community? Harvey: Yeah. Franklin: Did you go out there with them as well? Harvey: I did, but I remember going to houses to do things. You know, pick up this, do that. But my younger brother actually spent more time there, because of his age. When my parents—because my mom got more and more involved as us kids got older and got more independent in school. So we were getting up to high school and then she was free to go, but she still had this young kid at home. So he got tagged-along. So he actually would have more stories about going into homes and he might remember the people there more. Whereas I was watching from afar. Like, I remember, instead of dinner coming at a reasonable hour, now dinner was always hours late because she wasn’t home. And it was some thrown-together thing, because she was gone doing something in east Pasco. She was there a lot. And then she got involved in the Hispanic community over there, too. That became another big focus, that she became very involved with the farm workers union. She became involved in, what was it, Community Action Council, over there that was in Pasco. And that was more—well, now, I don’t—I think it was more of the migrant farm workers active stuff. But I’m not sure, you’d have to look that one up. Because then she got very involved with different groups. We didn’t have any other big ethnic groups around that I recall, other than the blacks and the Hispanics, because they were the farm workers. So those were the two that she got real involved in. And then we started to have—you know, we had friends there in the Hispanic community, too, that became part of our circle. Franklin: As opposed to successes, what were some of the biggest challenges of the civil rights movements? Harvey: Well, from my parents’ perspective, one of the challenges she had was with the Church, because my parents were Catholic and they were very involved in the Catholic Church. And she was very, very angry that the Church wasn’t more progressive. If she would get in fights with the priest, Father Sweeney—she called him a white, racist bigot because he wouldn’t put a political sign in the yard about something about civil rights, in the rectory front yard. And she would get very angry at the Catholic Church about women’s issues. Because then, of course, it evolved into women’s rights, too. That was probably one of her biggest challenges, was her frustration with the Church. Because she was born and raised a Catholic, and she was a very strong believer. I do remember a conversation that—frequently when I’d come home from school, they’d be sitting around—she and Shirley Miller and my mom and whoever else some of the women were in the group—sitting around the kitchen table, talking. Oh, Margaret Gregor was another one that was part of the group. She was in Richland, too. And talking about how pissed off they were with the Catholic Church, and they should just leave the church and go to some other, more accepting—I think Margaret Gregor was the one who said, but if we leave, there’ll be nobody left to change it. So we have to stay and fight. So I know that was a challenge, to stay and fight the Church. And my mother did. I mean, she fought until she died. She fought the Church the whole time. But she kept going, every week, she’d go back to mass. And my dad was more quiet. He didn’t talk as much as she did. He was more of the silent type in the background that was doing the work. Franklin: Did your father or mother ever face any blow-back or recrimination for their work in civil rights, either professionally or in the community? Harvey: Well, in the community, through the parish, they did. I remember them going to some parish party one time, and we kids were home alone because we were older. They went to—it was at a house that I won’t mention the name, but—it was some big parish house. And they came home furious, early. And my mother was just livid red because they were telling racist jokes there. And she told them there was a goddamn white bigot—racist bigot, to the host of the party, she went up and screamed it in his face and marched out the door. Then I think she became labeled in the parish after that. Not that it bothered her at all. Most of her friends became—she became social in this other group. But maybe there, they did. I don’t know about other—my older sister, I think confided—she confided more in her about her feelings about things. So my mother might have confided more—she might know more about it. And I don’t know about my father, either. I do remember the first black man we ever saw—that I ever saw was a scientist who came out to Hanford to work. He was doing some sabbatical work or guest—and he was from Africa. He came out to work at Hanford and my dad brought him over for dinner. I don’t know if—I remember he came to dinner and he had this beautiful African accent. But us kids were just amazed because we’d never known a black person before, and it was just like, wow, this is really cool. So I don’t know if he ever received—if he ever had any repercussions of what he did. I don’t know. I never heard anything about it. Franklin: Was he out there marching as well? Harvey: Yeah. In fact, I have pictures of my parents marching on George Washington Way when my dad was in his late 80s, still standing there picketing the war. Franklin: Oh, the Iraq War? Harvey: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm. When he was—he was 90 when he passed away, so he was in his mid-80s, probably, and he was still standing on the sidewalk picketing with Jim Stoffels—he’s another name you might talk to, is Jim Stoffels. Franklin: Oh, I know Jim—I’m a member of BRMA. Harvey: Okay. Franklin: I know Jim well, yeah. Harvey: So Jim was out there on the sidewalk with him, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, World Citizens for Peace. Harvey: Yeah, so he was out there, yup, ‘til the very end. Franklin: Wow. Harvey: And my mom, too. I have a picture of her doing it, too, yeah. Franklin: Good for them. Harvey: In fact, when she passed away, the Social Justice Committee at Christ the King Church put up a plaque for her in the church vestibule, in honor of her and her work on the Social Justice Committee at the parish. So I think as the church became more accepting, she became more involved. And they did create a social justice committee and then she became active in that. Franklin: Richland also had its own Human Rights Commission; were your parents involved— Harvey: They were, and I don’t know anything about it. It’s probably in the files. Franklin: Okay, that’s fine, that’s fine. Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Harvey: Not—you know, in high school, other than painting signs—but us kids were more like, it was more like a social activity. It was fun. The parents would be upstairs putting something together and we’d be down in the basement playing pool and ping-pong and painting signs and having a great time. It was this—I don’t know how many kids, whatever parents were up there, we were downstairs doing it. And then there were political—I remember political gatherings at the house. I remember Jim McDermott had a campaign function at our house, and a lot of those people were there, multicultural, multiracial group there. I participated in that, mostly because there was a keg of beer and you could drink. Even though you were only in high school, you could sneak in and get drunk off the beer. And hearing a lot of the politicians’ names that were running for office. I remember Jay Inslee’s name, he was there. Hearing these names all the time—because then as my parents moved into the—you know, it became—I don’t know if CORE disbanded or what happened to CORE, but it went from NAACP and then into the democratic committee, and a lot of those people moved into the democratic party and started becoming more mainstream active there. And they kind of joined, I guess, NAACP and democratic group. Because my dad’s efforts went there, too. So I remember those types of functions. But as far as doing more on my own—other than going to political rallies when I became high school, I remember going to McGovern rallies and Shirley Chisholm rallies and stuff like that. But I don’t remember doing other things. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Harvey: Well, probably because it brought it up to the forefront. It was in the newspaper, it was on the news, and made people in the community aware. Even though you didn’t have—in Richland, there was nothing going on. I mean, you didn’t see it. And if you didn’t go to Pasco, you didn’t see it. I mean, us kids didn’t see it because you were living in this white community, middle-class community. But seeing it on TV brought it to the forefront. We’d talk about it in school, we had classes that you’d talk about it. And then the Black Power movement with the youth group—the African American kids in school, they had some sort of club they formed—and they would talk about it. So the national brought it in and brought it to the awareness, I guess. Franklin: From your perspective, what was different about civil rights efforts here? Harvey: Well, I don’t think we had the violence that you saw. And we didn’t have—I don’t know about the poverty. It was different, maybe, because it wasn’t inner-city poverty. The poverty was in east Pasco. But there wasn’t the violence of the rioting and stuff that you saw elsewhere. I mean, I never felt unsafe, even when I was in east Pasco. And I had a good friend whose father had a business in east Pasco, and they were white. They traded business with the east Pasco community and were respectful of each other. I don’t remember anything in particular about it. So maybe that’s how it was different. It was smaller, I guess. From my perspective as a kid. And it was just something that was part of—we didn’t think it was anything unusual; this was just the way our family was. So it was mainstream. It wasn’t anything unique to us; it was just life. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Harvey: You know, I didn’t know anything until I saw the video that CJ Mitchell was in. I didn’t know anything about it that I can recall. I don’t remember my parents talking about it with us. They probably did with their own group, but with just the kids, I don’t remember them discussing it. Their conversations were more right now, what’s going on now, what do we need to do right now, with their friends. Franklin: Right. From your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Harvey: Of my parents? Franklin: Of African American workers at Hanford. Harvey: Okay, repeat that again? What was--? Franklin: What were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Harvey: At Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Harvey: Well, probably that they built it. That was probably huge. I mean, I can’t imagine that whole Manhattan Project happening without the workers. And they made up a piece of them. And the people—you know, the people that were out there at Manhattan building it, they weren’t from here; they all—so they probably were aware of African American people. Maybe some of them had worked side-by-side with them before, I don’t know. I mean, the fact that they actually came and did the work, that’s pretty significant. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember when you learned about what was being made at Hanford? Harvey: Well, we knew, because of the Richland Bombers. And we knew that was our mascot. But it wasn’t really something you even thought about. Really, until I got—I remember in high school, seeing the bomb mascot, and then, I remember being very aware then, because—you’ve probably seen at the high school, there’s the bomb on the floor, and you weren’t allowed to walk on the bomb; you had to walk around it. You know, I don’t remember—probably— Franklin: Really? You weren’t allowed to walk on the—why was that? Harvey: Oh. Because it was sacred. It was the school mascot. And it was the warhead. Have you seen it? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Harvey: Yeah! Okay, so, when you were walking—that was the mixing area. I haven’t been in the high school in many, many, many years, but that was the main mixing area, and you didn’t step on that. That was—you didn’t step on the mascot. You walked around the mascot. That was the rule. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Interesting that they painted it on the floor then, but okay. Harvey: Well, it was a tile or something, isn’t it? Or is it painted? I don’t remember. Franklin: I think it’s painted. Harvey: And it’s kind of right in the center, so it’d be like the cougar was right there, the Wazzu cougar was right there. Don’t step on the cougar! Franklin: Sure, sure. Harvey: Or the Husky, you know. You don’t step on, that’s our motto. Yeah. So I don’t remember ever not being aware that what we did at Hanford, I mean, we made plutonium for a bomb. But I don’t remember ever thinking, well, what do they do there? I never even thought about it, you know, as a kid you didn’t think about it. I do remember, one of my friends who went to school with me, and she went to Gonzaga, and at our five-year class reunion, we were at our reunion here, and we’re sitting around talking, and she said she never realized how weird it was to grow up here. Because like I said, we thought this was normal. She was sitting in her dorm room at Gonzaga and they were talking about things you did in school to get out of school. Like, you’d pull the fire alarm. We did that a lot. Or you’d pretend you were sick. Or you’d pretend it was that time of month and you had to go to the bathroom right away. Or you’d have, somebody would call in a bomb scare to the school, you know, one of your friends would skip class and call in a bomb scare. And they were all kind of laughing about these things. And Barbie says, oh, yeah, I remember when the Whole Body Counter came to school. That was great! And they look at her and go, what? And she says, the Whole Body Counter. When it used to come to school. And they said, what was that? Well, you know, you’d get your whole body count of your radiation count, your uranium count done? And they all looked at her like she was completely nuts; they were horrified. So then she explained what it was. But she’s told us, I never realized that that wasn’t something everybody else did. That we did it, and nobody else did that. But it came to the school, and you went through it. And that was what it was like growing up here; you thought that was completely normal stuff. Franklin: Wow. Did your parents ever talk about—being so focused on civil rights, did they ever talk about their reactions to Hanford’s role and the building of the nuclear arsenal? Harvey: You know, I don’t remember them talking about it, other than it was a job at a time where there were no jobs. You know, my mother’s father, when they came out, he was unemployed and they were destitute. So it saved their family. It created a new home for them. And my mother had a very close affinity to Japanese people, because she lived in Japan, and she became friends with some Japanese people and she had a very high respect for them. She never talked about feeling guilty or remorseful for that. I never heard that. Yeah, that’s interesting, because—and they weren’t really involved in the stopping nuclear proliferation; that wasn’t something they were involved in at all. I think Jim Stoffels is involved in that more now. He was the one in the group that went that route. But they were not that—they were in peace, no war, but they didn’t specifically target nuclear war, atomic war. That was something we grew up with; it was just a part of life. And the bomb ended the war. That was it. That was what you learned. Franklin: Sure, sure. And purportedly kept wars from happening. Harvey: Yep, yep, mm-hmm. Franklin: Was Jim involved in civil rights efforts with your parents? How long did that relationship go back? Harvey: Well, he—I don’t recall. His name is on some of those papers in there, though. So, I believe it is. Or you could ask him, because I don’t know when he came and became involved with it. He was more of the peace thing, I got the impression that his focus was world peace and ending war. So it was probably more about the Vietnam War issue or that sort of thing, that he kind of came and became friends. Because I don’t remember when I was a kid if he was around. He was more somebody we got to know when I was older, like maybe even out of high school, that he came on the picture. Franklin: Sure, sure. I’ve interviewed Jim, just we never talked about it, because I knew of his peace/war concern and down that route. Harvey: So you’d have to ask him that. I haven’t seen him in a year. Franklin: It’d be interesting to— Harvey: Yeah, you’ll have to ask him that, because I’m not sure when he came in. Franklin: Sure. I just have a few more questions here. So you graduated from Richland High, right, a Bomber. And then what did you do after that? Harvey: Well, I knew I didn’t want to go to college right away, because I was really sick of school. So I actually moved to Tacoma, because one of my friends from high school was going to college in Tacoma and she wanted a roommate. So I moved up there, lived there for a year with her together. And then met a man and fell in love and we moved in together, and he wanted to go back to school at Wazzu to get an engineering degree. So we left Tacoma and ended up in Pullman together. And I started college there, then. Actually, I started at CBC and then I went to Pullman. After a year, I transferred to the University of Washington. So I went to school there and that’s where I graduated from there. And I married this man and we had children and we divorced 15 years later. But we stayed over there in Tacoma. And I went to school and I got my degree in nutrition. So I’m a dietician. Franklin: Okay. Harvey: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about living in Richland during the Cold War? Harvey: [LAUGHTER] It was very interesting. Very unique. It was just such a unique, interesting thing. I don’t know. The only thing, I didn’t realize—you can’t explain it to people, it was so strange. But when my daughter, my youngest daughter was in a book club when she was in grade school, and one of the books the book club read was, I think, The Great Glass Sea. It’s a children’s novel about living in Los Alamos during the same time period. And it’s a children’s book. A young girl and her father or her mother or something are physicists or something that go and live there. And when I’m reading this book with my daughter, I realize, this was my life exactly. That the way this story this girl is talking about growing up in this government village, building a nuclear bomb—and there was mention of Richland in the book, because they were all part of the same project. And I just said, it suddenly dawned on me, this is what my life was. And I didn’t realize it was anything unique or different at the time. You didn’t even know it until you talked to other people that came from other places. And I told my daughter that. Because she had been in Richland lots of times. And I said, this is what Richland was like. And you don’t see that now, because now you see this—there’s a lot of green. It’s such a different—almost a normal community now, compared to what it was then. It was not normal. It was weird. But you thought it was normal, that was all it was. As you got older, you could go to Pasco and see a little bit of normalcy over there, that that was what the world was like. Kennewick was kind of odd, because it was more like a suburb; it wasn’t—there wasn’t much in Kennewick. There wasn’t much reason to go to Kennewick; it was kind of just a dull place. Whereas Pasco had some big buildings and old houses that really look cool, like farm houses. So you felt like there was some culture in Pasco. Richland had nothing. It was just ugly. [LAUGHTER] And there was nothing to do, as a kid, you know. There was just—there was nothing to do. You could walk to the river and float down the river. There was not a lot to do. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to civil rights and how they impacted your parents’ life and your life in the Tri-Cities? Harvey: Well, I thought it was really unique and very brave of them to take that on. My mother was like that. She would get a passion about something. And then the thing I learned from them is that if something’s wrong and you’re going to complain about it, don’t complain unless you’re willing to do something. You don’t have to do something big. Because neither one of my parents were leaders; they just became the working bees. And I heard that a lot from their friends over the years. John Slaughter says that to me all the time. He says, your parents were the working bees. I ran into Jay Inslee one time on an airplane flying back from Washington, DC, years ago. I went up to him, because we were walking in the aisle, and I introduced myself and I said, Jay, I remember your name as a kid growing up, and I told him who I was. And his response was, oh, yeah, Dick and Nyla, they were the workers. They were the workers. Those are the people that you really need in your organization. And probably what I learned was that that work is as important as any work. You don’t have to be the leader; you just have to say, I’ll be the person to stuff the envelopes, or I’ll be the person to get the poster board and paint the signs. Any little bit can make a difference in the outcome. And I learned that a lot. And that’s kind of the way I’ve always taken things, that when there’s something—a project that needs to be done, I’m not afraid to say, well, you know, if I don’t volunteer, nobody will. And I have no reason—I don’t have any right to complain about it, if I’m not willing to volunteer. And so I guess my legacy from my mother and father is that I’ve done a lot of volunteer work with the nutrition field that I work in. I work in kidney disease and dialysis. I’ve stepped out of my comfort zone many, many times to—I say, well, okay you need a volunteer; I can do that. And it’s a lot of extra work. It is. I mean, my parents did a lot of extra work. And the family survived. My mother wasn’t there cooking dinner, doing laundry, cleaning the house. We didn’t have any of that stuff, and we survived. She was out doing other things. She was working hard to see what she could do to make the world better for other people. And my dad, too. And I think that’s one thing that I’ve learned from them is you don’t have to be a leader; you just have to be a worker. And if you’re not willing to step up and be a worker, then quit bitching about it. Just shut up and go stick your head in a hole. So. And that was kind of the, I guess, that was the way I see them. Now, my brother and sister may say something completely different. That’s just my impression. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. Well, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us today. I really appreciate your perspective on your parents. Harvey: Thanks! Mm-hmm. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kathy (Brouns) Harvey Description An account of the resource Kathy (Brouns) Harvey was born in Richland, Washington in 1954. Her mother Nyla was influential in local Civil Rights movements. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/29/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Civil rights Civil rights movements Discrimination School integration https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbb4284fd53e25630e35d232881bd9305.jpg 8a2d0ba67f97e75e5e9ba27b5f02ede7 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc748f0a5d7a4f01d7d070dc3be79fa22.mp4 8b52d1c8267d557b236daa360239660a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathy Rhodes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kathy Rhodes Description An account of the resource An interview with Kathy Rhodes conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe569ea39d2b6ee7a52c2712dfe05f0ad.JPG eb77089662d22082b1f797feab5fac35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Keith Klein Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: Rolling. Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Keith Klein on February 7th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Keith about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Keith Klein: Keith Klein. K-L-E-I-N. Franklin: Okay. And K-E-I-T-H? Klein: K-E-I-T-H, yeah. Franklin: Okay, great. Tell me how and why you came to work at the Hanford Site. Klein: Well, I suppose it started as—born in the early ‘50s, and at that time, atomic energy was the stuff of comic books and intrigue and power. It was, you know—whenever the planet was threatened by alien beings, they’d always convene a meeting of the Atomic Energy Commission. So I think in the back of my mind, I always had an inkling that I’d end up somehow dealing with atomic energy. The path that got me here was actually as an Atomic Energy Commission intern in the early ‘70s. One of my assignments as an intern was out here doing FFTF construction, I think in ’73. After that, a series of assignments, most back at headquarters dealing with all aspects of the fuel cycle. Mid ‘90s, I was dispatched to Rocky Flats, and that’s where I gained experience dealing with plutonium and contaminated facilities and the work force and this kind of the field experiences as a deputy manager out at Rocky Flats. One of the obstacles to getting Rocky Flats cleaned up was getting rid of the transuranic waste. So I ended up getting dispatched down to Carlsbad, New Mexico for a six-month stint with the assignment of getting it open and recruiting a permanent manager. Opening WIPP had eluded a number of people and brought in lawsuits. There were a lot of different combination of technical issues, operational issues, regulatory, political, perception, communications issues—you name it. But I guess I impressed the secretary with that assignment, and next thing you know, he asked me to come out here to Richland. That was in 1999. So I came out here as a manager of the Richland Operations Office then and was here until I retired from federal service in 2007. Franklin: Great. Just for those who might not know, could you say what WIPP stands for and what its mission was? Klein: WIPP is the Waste Isolation Pilot Project, and it was the first deep geologic disposal facility in the—well, in the world, really. It’s in a geologic formation, about a half-mile under in salt beds that are several hundreds of millions of years old and have been—just their very existence shows a lack of moving water, because salt being soluble. And of course disposing of nuclear waste and particularly of things—plutonium-bearing waste, transuranic waste falls in that category. Lot of folks afraid about transportation and is it going to leak out and so forth. But the community there was actually very supportive. The scientific community was as well. But of course there was a lot of—you know, this is falling on the heels of nuclear power, a lot of opponents of nuclear power. It seemed like we’re similarly opposed to solving the waste problem. So it had some similar characteristics as the challenges being faced up here. But that was a very big deal for those of us in the nuclear waste community. It was recently shut down for some operational issues. And when it shuts down it shuts down for a few years. But it was key to emptying out this category waste called transuranic waste from sites around the country including here at Hanford and the national laboratories. Franklin: When you came out in the early ‘70s as an intern for FFTF construction, what did you do? Klein: Well, it was FFTF construction. Actually first assignment was dealing with electrical systems then. I was assigned to—it was a Bechtel Corporation doing work out there in the field. I was being mentored by a fellow that was actually in a responsible for the crafts, pulling wire and routing things. So you know that was all part of giving us on-the-ground experience. And this in particular was construction. Later went to a Westinghouse subsidiary that was placing the large vessels, setting the pumps and the heat exchangers and that sort of thing. It was an incredible amount of stainless steel. And quality assurance, obviously, building a reactor is very important. Had to have good records and had to know that things in fact were welded like they’re supposed to be, tested like they’re supposed to be and so forth. And it—of course—you know, then I was part of the AEC Breeder Reactor Program and I think that was what really attracted me to the Atomic Energy Commission, is the idea that a source of energy could make more fuel than it used. And it seemed environmentally benign at the time. I still happen to believe it’s one of the more benign forms of energy, but it’s obviously been beset with a number of challenges in terms of the times—and this comes back to Hanford, actually. The time it takes to do things now and the number of layers and checks and so forth. In the commercial nuclear business, time is money. And the more time it takes, the more costs. And then things getting held up in the regulatory process with interveners, it basically got priced out of the market and became uneconomical. It had also gotten very complicated at the time, and that’s another example. You start adding layers of safety and things like that, you can end up—things getting more complicated and difficult to analyze and manage and deal with. So it kind of collapsed under its own weight there for a while. But there is a new generation of reactors that are coming that are more inherently safe and simpler in a lot of respects. So I think there’s still some hope out there for sources of electrical energy that, in my mind, can be very benign. Franklin: Mm-hm. Thank you. So you came to RL—Richland—in ’99, then, and you were the site—the DOE site manager. Klein: Correct. Franklin: For the Hanford unit. Can you talk about some of the progress you made in that position, but also maybe some of the setbacks as well? Because that’s during this kind of shift into this more modern phase of cleanup, right, where most of the production and reprocessing of fuels had stopped by that point. Klein: That’s a huge topic, Robert. Franklin: Sure. Klein: But it’s actually one I love to talk about because it was indeed a very daunting challenge. I understand you’ve interviewed Mike Lawrence and he signed a compliance agreement out here, the Tri-Party Agreement. But then he left and left it to others to implement that and get the work done. So he made the commitments and everyone else was kind of left holding the bag. John Wagner, I think did his best to get the ball rolling, but I think during that time there was just a lot of norming and forming and trying to figure out things. There wasn’t a whole lot of on-the-ground progress. I learned a lot at Rocky Flats and at WIPP about what it takes to get work done in these kind of environments. That included both technically and in terms of dealing with the workforce and dealing with the contracts. You know, the people that do the real work here are really contractors to DOE. And depending on how the contracts are written and things are incentivized and how much—just the whole dynamic between receiving the money—you have to go out and get the money from Congress, so you have to convince them that you have a plan, you know what you’re doing, you can deliver, that you’re investment grade. And then you have to deliver, because if you don’t, the money will dry up and lots of other problems. So giving this cleanup some focus, some momentum and just making it manageable, if you will, was one of the biggest challenges. Technically, there were two urgent risks—well, there were actually three urgent risks at the time. Of course the high-level waste that I think everybody knows about. But we had about 18 tons of plutonium-bearing materials that were unstable. These were things that when they shut down after the Cold War were left in various forms: alloys, residues, oxides, pure metal. And plutonium can be very reactive and exothermic. So it really needs to be stabilized, lest your—you have some real problems. Recall high school chemistry, you put a little sodium in the water—it’s that type of thing. So dealing with the plutonium—and again, I had the experience there with Rocky Flats—was a second urgent priority. And the third one was the spent fuel that was left in the K Basins. There were about 2,000 tons. That was about 80%, 90% of the DOE inventory that was left in the K Basins. This fuel was prone to oxidizing dissolving. And as a result of that, just deteriorating. So it was losing its integrity and creating a lot of sludge on the bottom. So even the act of moving it would create these clouds and you couldn’t see. The Site had been experimenting with different things to try to package up and dry out this—and stabilize this spent fuel so it could be stored in a dry, inert, stable, stable environment. So that was a second major challenge. And then of course there’s all this contaminated groundwater underlying the Site. Billions of gallons that had been dumped into the soil. You know, the soil here is something called a vadose zone where it’s got this dry sand and gravel mixtures and then there’s—can be basalt layers under that that are relatively impermeable, and you know, the water table that’s about where the Columbia River level is. So the center portion of the Site is built up. But long story short, waste in both liquid forms and then solid forms of waste have been buried in several hundred sites around the Hanford Site. So figuring out what we’re going to do with all those waste sites and with the contaminated groundwater was another set of challenges. And then of course there were, depending on how you count them, 700, 1,500 contaminated buildings out there that needed to be dealt with. This coupled with—right when I came, a legislation had been passed setting up a separate office of river protection to deal specifically with the high-level waste and the high-level waste tanks. So part of my job was helping to get that set up and transferred. Dick French was my counterpart dealing with that. The national lab, PNNL, was also actually under the Richland Operations Office at that time, but after a couple years it was decided similarly that the office of science—you know, it’s such a different focus that it was better off separated out. And from my standpoint, these were all good things, because there’s plenty of challenges to go around. So when I came, I guess my biggest challenges were how do you help manage, mobilize, organize efforts to get confidence that you have a plan for dealing with these things. We had these regulatory commitments, but it’s people that clean these things up. It’s not paper. You can sign anything you want; it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So this kind of comes down to contracts, understanding the workforce, what motivates them, and basically how to enable them. So my job is one of enabling. I mean, there’s so many smart people out here, it’s intimidating. And impressive and inspiring. And given the latitude, they’ll figure out how to do things. You compare when I came here it was different than it is even now, what, 16, 18 years later. But when I came here compared to like the ‘40s, a world of difference in terms of what it took to get work done. In the ‘40s, they could learn by doing, experiment, play with things, and they didn’t have to get multi layers of permission, or—they didn’t have emails or cell phones or computers. I mean, it was slide rules and hand-written notes and so forth. Which comes back to just how amazing they were. How creative and innovative. Of course, it was under a wartime environment. But contrast that, when I came here—a lot of different regulatory structures put in place—something called the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board to oversee DOE. The Atomic Energy Commission was self-regulating. And when environmental laws were passed, which has led to the Tri-Party Agreement, the Department of Energy was out of compliance with a number of these national laws, like the Resource Recovery—RCRA—and the Comprehensive Environmental Liability—CRCLA. So this compliance agreement, the Tri-Party Agreement was basically—this is how DOE was going to come into compliance with these things. Of course, there’s money that’s associated with that. DOE, like other agencies, lives on an annual budget. So you can’t get multi-year appropriations; you never really know how much you’re going to get from year to year. So to make commitments hoping you’ll get the money is part of the whole dynamic of getting work done here. But back to what it takes to get work done. It’s understanding these different laws and regulations. In my mind, I was fortunate, then, that I had good relationships back at headquarters and the trust and confidence of the leadership. So I was able to basically authorize more things on my signature based on my discretion than, certainly, what can be done today. Unfortunately with problems, you get more oversight and more second guessing and so forth. So it’s kind of success-begets-success. But in any event, my focus—and before you can clean up the buildings, you have to deal with the urgent priorities first: things that can go bump in the night. And again it comes back to the top three at the time were high-level waste and the plutonium, and the spent fuels. So the focus was really on the plutonium and spent fuel until you can get these things out of the different buildings, you can’t take down the buildings, that’s—stabilizing these things more important than—you know, the ground water was contaminated. I mean, the contamination was spreading, but you had to remove the sources, otherwise you’re continuing to feed—you can continue to clean up the groundwater, but there’s still stuff coming in, then you’re just kind of halting some progression but not really cleaning it up. So dealing with these different sources was the focus. But long story short, we had some brainstorming sessions with all the contractor heads, KEA, you know, folks that were working for me—how can we make this a simple, compelling, understandable vision? Make this, our task, more manageable? And what we came up with was basically featured three things. We came to call it the river, the plateau and the future. And said, our job is going to be to transition the central part of the Site into a long-term waste management area. The central part of the Site is where the high-level waste tanks are, the reprocessing canyons, a lot of these burial grounds. I mean, we were going to be here for a long time. And that’s also the stuff that’s farthest away from the river. So if you can sort of encapsulate and stop the hemorrhaging there, then kind of in a triage approach, then, that gives you—allows you to start cleaning up the rest. The second part was restoring the river corridor. And there the idea was to clean this up as good as is practical as we could and to make it available for other uses. So these are the reactors along the river, the other waste sites, burial grounds, the areas around the 300 Area where all the research is taking place and things like that. And the third part, the future, was—I guess I viewed this whole challenge out here as one of managing change and transition. And considering that we have 10,000 folks working out here, they need a future. It’s hard enough to ask someone to work themselves out of a job, but to work themselves out of a job without the prospect of other jobs, so—and that’s not something the DOE, the Atomic Energy Commission or others had a whole lot of experience at or are very good at. We’re a scientific and technical community. And most of us, myself included, is engineers. We go into these disciplines because we like numbers and quantities and we’re typically introverts and that sort of thing. So dealing with something as amorphous as the future is tough. But we convinced ourselves it was important and we had all these resources like the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and university systems and all these smart, talented people. There’s no reason why the things we’re learning here, lessons learned and businesses that could develop around here couldn’t be provided for a good socioeconomic environment here, too. And I think the Department of Energy and its predecessors always wanted to be a good community citizen. So just scrubbing out all the molecules but leaving this place an economic ghost town is not the right thing to do. Certainly, we want to get it as clean as we can, but you want to leave the community whole. And it comes back to the sacrifices that were made here going back to the tribes and the folks that were evicted in order to do this and the people that lost their lives helping to build the facilities and operate the facilities in the early years to produce the weapons material. Certainly the communities paid a price here. So the river, the plateau, and the future was kind of our mantra, and that’s how we organized things. Tried to fashion over the years that followed contracts that did that. But in any event, what I did was I sold—as for meeting with Doc Hastings, he was the congressman at the time. Sat down with him. I remember it very well, I was still—had become a—because of Rocky Flats and Waste Isolation Pilot Plant—I had some experience dealing with elected officials and high level stuff, but it’s still intimidating. You know, it’s like, I’m a freaking engineer. So but went to him with—at his office over in Pasco and laid this out. And he liked it, and we had some very good discussions and a rapport. But he lives across the river from the 300 Area, is where his house is. So he looks down, and he can actually see a lot of these things. And of course he’s committed to the community and Hanford and he wanted to give me the best shot possible as well. And I should say, too, due to my homework before I came in here, I learned about folks like Sam Volpentest and Bob Ferguson and I went around and met them and got their ideas, perception of things, and how things work. So I think I was fortunate, had a lot of good support from different corners. Doc went to bat for us, as did the senators, for the funding. They’ve been great supporters here, appreciative of the history and the challenges that remain. We put in place contracts. I brought a contract type they used at Rocky Flats successfully that’s different than the conventional contracts that the Atomic Energy Commission was used to operating under. The traditional contracts are management and operating contracts. And in that kind of contract, it’s for a certain period of time and the contractor’s pretty much graded by how their DOE counterparts felt about how they were doing. And it was a lot of one-to-one counterparts with the contractors doing whatever DOE said at any particular time. So, it can work well when you’re in kind of a steady environment in a production mode, like churning out nuclear weapons material and operating. But at Rocky Flats what we learned is you need a lot more incentive to be creative and innovative. What worked there was having an agreement with the contractors and the contract type and the regulators about, this is the scope of work that’s going to get done, and as long as we stay within this box, basically—you know, leave us alone. And that was my philosophy in this contract that’s called a cost-plus-incentive-fee contract, CPIF, versus MNO which is a cost-plus-award fee. And the amount of money the contractor makes is tied to how well they do this tangible piece of work that you can actually see and feel. So we have an official government estimate that this is how long it should take based on our historical experience; this is how much it should cost. So every dollar you save bringing that in sooner and earlier, you get to save 30 cents on that dollar. So when you’re talking about contracts that cover, you know, five- to ten-year period, you’re talking about potentially a couple hundred million dollars in fees on the table there. Well, at Rocky Flats, what we learned is, particularly the contractors can share that with the employees, that they can get quite creative about how to do things. And they are able to learn by doing. You know, the envelope is a safety envelope; you can’t do anything unless you know it’s safe. So that’s where we focused our attention, is making sure we had a good safety basis and watching that through facility reps and other things. But basically, not trying to micromanage or giving them the freedom, as much as we could, to do things. And having a very good scope. So that’s what we put around the river corridor contract. The idea there is we’re going to blitz the river corridor. And we need this tangible progress, too, to further build confidence that we can do this. Of course, you can’t demolish buildings and excavate sites unless you’ve got something to do with the waste that’s coming out. So that comes back to things like ERDF and the different disposal grounds in the middle of the site—the energy—Environmental Restoration Disposal Facility—huge facility in the center of the site. So this whole thing becomes a huge chess game of sorts where the different pieces are the money and the contracts and the people and the labor agreements and the different technical pieces that have to fall in sequence before you can do things. And in some way, the icing on the cake is actually taking down the buildings. Because by that time, you’ve had to take the materials out. And you can’t take the materials out unless there’s something you can do with them. So whether there’s plutonium and having the equipment in place to stabilize them and then package it and put it somewhere. That’s basically the plan we had: the river, the plateau and the future. And I think the results, I’m pretty proud, speak for themselves. We packaged up all that spent fuel, got it off the river, from out of the K Reactors into the central part of the plateau. We got all the plutonium stabilized. And that ended up being able to—my successor able to ship that actually offsite to Savannah River. And put in place the river corridor contract, which I think has been pretty widely acclaimed and recognized as being successful. And it meant a lot of good things are happening. The folks dealing with high-level waste and the Waste Treatment Plant I think have had some different kinds of challenges and still dealing with a lot of that. But I think you see excellent progress on the rest of the Site. Franklin: I was wondering if you could speak about the challenge of vitrification as a—I mean, it’s a proposed way to isolate and deal with the waste and it’s been successful at other sites, but seems to have hit snags at Hanford. Klein: Well, this was not my territory. Franklin: Okay. Klein: I know a fair amount about it, so I’m tempted to give you opinion. But I did not have responsibility for that, and so—Kevin Smith is the current Office of River Protection manager and he’d be a better one to talk to about that. But vitrification in general was a form preferred by the state and others for stabilizing some components of the waste out there that’s very highly radioactive. It’s interesting—back in the day, some of the components in these tanks that generate the most heat are strontium and cesium: fission products, versus the actinides. The actinides being plutonium, uranium, those type of things. And there’s not a whole lot of that in this high-level waste. But in the old days, they started taking out the cesium and the strontium so the tanks weren’t generating as much heat so they could put more waste in. And we put—before my time, they put the strontium and cesium into capsules. And they’re stored in a water pool up—attached to one of their processing facilities and that was under my purview. Now the process moving that to dry storage. And I only say that because, you know, in my mind, there are alternative forms for managing these different wastes that they can be used. And with fission products, 30-year half-life, rule of thumb is if ten half-lives—these things reduce to a millionth their radioactivity or less, 10-6, and basically are innocuous at that time. So thirty years, half-life of ten years, that’s 300 years. In geologic time, that’s nothing. So do you really need geologic disposal for things with fission products with 30-year half-lifes? And if you don’t need geologic disposal, do you really need to vitrify the wastes and put them into these glass waste forms? I mean, basically what’s attractive about glass is it’s not as susceptible to dissolution and water and dissolving. So things can stay pretty much contained, is the thought. But even these high-level waste logs, they’re just going into dry storage anyway. You know, I’m a proponent, I guess, for a lot of these different wastes, that dry storage, I think, is the most economical, efficient, and—I think there’s a reasonable chance our civilization will stay intact for 300 years. You can put these things in dry storage casks and things like that, they’re basically tamper-proof and they cool themselves. It’s just keeping people away from them. I mean, I can talk more about vitrification if you really want, but like I said, it’s really not my bailiwick. Franklin: No, that’s fine. So you said your three major challenges were dealing with high-level waste, dealing with unstable plutonium-bearing materials and then the spent fuel. Klein: High-level waste was assigned to the separate office, so that really wasn’t my— Franklin: Oh, okay, so— Klein: --biggest challenge. So it was plutonium and the spent fuel were the two urgent priorities. But the third is really getting on with the cleanup and giving the whole cleanup some momentum and direction and some legs. Franklin: What do you see as the future of Hanford? Because the focuses of the river, the plateau and the future. And the river and plateau seem to have these concrete goals applied to them. The future does seem harder to diagnose or kind of see, because eventually there is an idea that cleanup will be performed. And then so what do you think the future of the Tri-Cities holds after the danger’s mitigated? Klein: Science, technology, engineering and math. I think this is, at its heart, a STEM community. And I think that we are very well-suited to grow that identity. We have a great STEM education that’s getting recognized nationwide [UNKNOWN] leading that. We have, I think, STEM employment opportunities. One of the things—my interests after retiring is running something called Executive Director Tri-Cities Local Business Association. And it’s looking at helping build local businesses with a high-tech nature that can help accommodate transition of employees. I’ve been active in promoting provisions in the DOE subcontracts that encourage the prime contractors to contract out more and better pieces of work to companies. So, I mean, I think there’s always been a good support for small businesses, but oftentimes that can be for janitorial supplies or this little thing, that little thing. There’s basically a huge workforce embedded—we call it in the fence—that does a lot of these other things. I’d like to see more, bigger, better chunks of that work able to go to local businesses that can then use that to develop their resumes. I mean, they’re highly incentivized to perform if—one, this is their backyard, their neighbors; two, you don’t get invited back to the party if you don’t do well. And they’re small and they’re very manageable. I think it would be very efficient. We have a number of examples of companies that have grown out of Hanford business or out of PNNL inventions or the expertise that people develop here that’s applicable to environmental challenges around the globe. So I think capitalizing on the lab and its high-tech things they do. We have BSEL right here and WSU Tri-Cities is a good example of kind of the collaborations. But PNNL is in a number of different sectors, and so the leveraging that more to help grow STEM businesses, employment opportunities, research opportunities I think is good. You’ve got the viticulture and the science of wines that is, I think, grown appreciation. Tourism, things like the Manhattan National Park, where people will come and see and appreciate the remarkable things that were done here. And the consequences, good and bad. But I mean it’s just—the stories to be told, people come here from around the world, I think, to see firsthand B Reactor and learn more about what that meant, what it took to get there. You’ve got the Reach National Monument, you have Ice Age Floods. There’s even STEM tourism. So you’ve got STEM education, STEM employment, STEM entrepreneurship. STEM tourism, I think, could really change—when people think of Hanford, instead of a stigma and high-level waste, oh my god, and the images that are conjured up there, I think are somewhat overblown. But instead of that, thinking of Hanford as science, technology, energy and math. This is the place to come to start a business, to get experience, to find good, smart people. I think it would do a good service for the community. And I think the national park would be one of the crown jewels in terms of STEM identity. Franklin: Great. Speaking of high-level waste, has most of the danger been mitigated, to your knowledge, of the waste that’s out onsite? Or where—yeah, that’s my question. Klein: The urgent risks have. I think, for the most part, the High Level Waste Tank have been interim stabilized, which means they’re—most of the things that are a threat of getting out and leaking, they basically got as much water, liquids, out of them as is possible in the single-shelled tanks. Leaks there, without a source of water, something to drive it further down into the water column or out, is mitigated. Double-shelled tanks are getting old and, of course, that’s a—had some leaks there. But even there, they’re double-shelled, so you can detect it and they can be emptied. Of course running out of space there. But the problem with nuclear waste, again, is until you know what you’re going to do with it, you can end up just moving it around. So the idea is you really need to put it in a better form and move it to someplace where it can be more easily managed or basically almost be semi-maintenance-free. We put a lot of stock into deep geologic repository, Yucca Mountain, that’s what we need to manage this high-level waste. But as I said before, I think, a lot of these can be managed quite safely for as long as may be necessary in dry storage still. So in terms of urgent risks, I think they’ve been for the most—mitigated. Now we’re dealing with more chronic, the longer-term risks and there, I think it’s a matter of being smart and getting a more productive. I think the red tape and the bureaucracy and the second-guessing, it’s almost become like a spectator sport with all the different oversight agencies and folks that are from King 5 over on the west side that seems to—and others, they’re really just focused on I’d say the things that can scare people or that might reflect badly on here but without appreciating it, I guess. I mean, there’s—yeah, there’s some mistakes that have been made, are being made, but the bulk of the people here that are good-hearted, well-intentioned, hard-working—you know, we live here, we drink the water here. If something was acutely dangerous, we’d know and we’d be able to deal with it. So I think things here are a lot safer than we appreciate. Franklin: Do you find that, in general, the public is misinformed about both the nuclear materials production process but also the waste and the dangers of nuclear waste? Klein: I would say, for the most part, the general public is apathetic about it. That there are segments of the public, the media, and others that—with different agendas, whether it be attention or profit or others, that put their own slant on it. But I think that with each new generation of people and understanding the atom that things are getting better. With radiation, you can measure it. It’s very easily detectable. Unlike gasses and chemicals and other things. We as a society put up, well, what are you going to do with the waste? Well, you look at the volumes of waste that are being involved and so forth, it’s really small. But we don’t seem to ask that same question about carbon dioxide and some of these others, yet we’re perfectly content to continue driving our cars and so forth. So I think there is a lack of perspective on these things. In some ways, it’s—the attention to them is important because they’re not going to just go away on their own. I mean, there’s still a lot of work that needs to be done and we need to have the resources to do it, and it’s kind of the squeaky wheel gets greased when it comes to budget things. But on the other hand, those things can get out of hand. So I don’t know what the public thinks, but I do have—[LAUGHTER]—I guess I’m an optimist at heart and think that each generation, like I said, is going to be smarter about—you know, what are the real hazards of these things and what really makes sense in terms of dealing with it? But one of my concerns is the less productive, the more inefficient we become: people with hands-on experience are retiring or dying. We can’t afford to lose that expertise. So I’m very much in favor of getting on with these things while we have these people around that know their way around and can deal with these things. Otherwise, we’re going to be wringing our hands and analyzing everything to death and actually doing less work. So that’s one of my biggest fears about all this stuff getting stretched out and prolonged. Franklin: When you were—it was eight years you were head of—for eight years you were head of DOE RL. How did you deal with the critics? Hanford detractors or critics of the cleanup operation. Were there protests in Richland? I know Mike Lawrence talked about protests, and I’m wondering if you—how did you deal with either the protests or media scrutiny of Hanford? Klein: You have to develop a thick skin. I mean, it still hurts. You feel it personally, you feel a disservice to all the folks that are working out here, putting their heart and soul into this. They get maligned so easily. How do you deal with it? It grates on you. It just kind of contributes to the stress. But it’s like, we’re all people with feelings and it’s—but the media typically focus on what’s going wrong and what’s sexy or what’s—get people’s attention, either sell viewership, readership, whatever. It just comes with the territory. Franklin: Interesting. Thank you. Do you—you mentioned something pretty interesting a few minutes ago and I kind of wanted to get your thoughts on it. I understand that you probably don’t have an intimate—you might not have an intimate knowledge of the oil and gas industry, but do you feel that the nuclear industry has more unfair restrictions on it than oil and gas does in terms of energy production? Because you mentioned that oil and gas production, people don’t think about their emissions from their car the same way they kind of get this emotional response to nuclear energy. And certainly oil and gas producers don’t have to plan for 50, 100, 3,000 years into the future for the byproducts of the product they sell. I’m wondering if you could ruminate on that a bit more, or if you feel like there’s an undue burden on the nuclear power industry that’s not on other forms of energy. Klein: I do think it has suffered unfairly for a number of reasons. Some of which I touched on before. I mean, I’m all for renewables, but I think they can only go so far. And it’s about the economics. I think the strength of our country is a lot about our economy. If you have cheap natural gas or—you know, the regulations on coal don’t take into account the cost of these different emissions, whether it’s CO2 or others, then I think those penalize the alternatives. Things like solar and wind have gotten tax breaks and different credits that I think have helped them come to market. Now you can get very inexpensive solar cells and things. And like I said, I’m all for using those where it makes sense. But from my standpoint, I think there’s still a need for some baseload. I think regionally distributed baseload, like small modular reactors, makes tremendous sense. So that you don’t have these vulnerable interconnected, largescale grids, but local communities could live on that, I think. In some areas of the world, they’re able to use the bypass, the residual heat, for steam, home heating and others. So I think, you look into the future, I think there could still be a very useful role for clean, safe, nuclear power without it being stymied by what about the nuclear waste? I think that can all be managed very well. So for future generations, I think—reducing dependence on fossil fuels and making the renewables—and I would consider nuclear power a renewable source—there’s lots of energy in those big atoms. It can and should be economical. Franklin: Great. Klein: If we get out of the way. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I’d like to switch topics to the historic preservation angle of your work. And I’d like you to talk about your involvement with preservation and saving of B Reactor from—and where you started. I know it was originally scheduled to be remediated and that was postponed and then eventually, I think due to pressure from B Reactor Museum Association and other groups, it gained a different kind of status, landmark status and things. I was wondering if you could talk about your role in that effort. Klein: Well, you know, nine different reactors operating here along the Columbia River—really, nowhere else in the world is it like that. B Reactor being the first large industrial scale reactor in the world. The DOE office, back under the Office of Environmental Management. And their job is to clean up. DOE does have an historian. So you have a bureaucracy that’s basically goal in life is to remediate these sites and facilities and get the liabilities down, the mortgages down and so forth. There’s a lot of pressure to do that. We’re on a course of cocooning these various reactors, putting them into cheap-to-keep mode where basically you’ve removed all the ancillary facilities and reduced it down to a core building and sealed that up and basically [UNKNOWN] that went through all the regulatory processes. If we seal these up, put these into a mode that’s good for 50, 70 years, keep the critters and people out, and have monitors in it and then we’ll come back and the radiation levels will further decayed by then. And we can dispose of these, finally—these graphite blocks and cores. So we’re on a roll in terms of cocooning these reactors. But the—I guess the people—and you can’t help but work at these sites or go out to these facilities and not be in awe of the magnitude of what was accomplished out here from an engineering and scientific standpoint. I mean, to me, it was just remarkable and first time I went out to B Reactor, it—like most people, as nuclear engineers, it’s kind of like Mecca. It strikes you and it just—really, it just hits a chord emotionally. And certainly the folks at BRMA, the B Reactor Museum Association, and others felt—knew that. I think they were instrumental in raising some community consciousness about it. I had a person on my staff, Colleen French, who is now running the national park, who is communications, and she and I, basically, strategized as to how can we stop this freight train from running over B Reactor, considering that I had a mandate to proceed, basically, and cocoon it like the others. Folks on my staff, to be honest with you, were split. There were some people that saw it as an asset and others not—it’s a liability. Come on, get on with it. I lean towards the wanting to preserve it, and I guess, feel guilty almost taking it down. So Colleen and I strategized as to, how do we give this the best shot possible? So we went back and met with the DOE historian and talked to some others, and basically were able to prepare some memorandum decisions that said that at a minimum, we should give this more time and think this out. At a maximum, we should just bite the bullet and preserve it and do what we can and try to be careful. I mean, you can only spend money for things that—it’s government money. DOE goes to Congress, it’s appropriation and it’s money to x, y, and z. It’s illegal to use it for r, s, and—you know. It’s for this purpose and this purpose only. So it started with, I guess, working with the DOE system and other laws and rules that say, you know, under preservation—there are some preservation responsibilities and others and exploiting those to create room to keep it open until folks could get a better sense of, in general, just the role of the Manhattan Project in history and DOE’s role in preserving that, and working with other institutions, the Park Service and others to formalize that. And of course Park Service is struggling with their own—they don’t have enough money to take care of things they already have. So you get into that whole realm of things. But at least we were able to stop the bulldozers, if you will, or the momentum—the cocooning momentum, at least for B Reactor. Potentially with even T Plant and some other things. And I really give Colleen a lot of credit with how hard she worked, too, to help us put together that strategy and create that opening or stay of execution. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you encounter resistance in Washington, DC for— Klein: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --for this idea? How did you overcome that, to help to show people the value of this? Klein: Well, I guess, fortunately, I had enough—what—backing and credit or chits that I could dissent, disagree with my management agreeably and get things elevated to a higher level. So it was, I think, agree to disagree. And I credit with my management back in DC in the Office of Environmental Management with how they dealt with it too. And letting higher powers basically decide this, with the help of the historian and others. And I think that’s—you know, the other thing that I did is I listened to Skip Gosling. Clay Sell was the deputy secretary at the time. He was a history buff. Franklin: So you say at the time, which—what time was this? Klein: This was at the time when we were struggling with, how do we legitimize preserving B Reactor? Franklin: Do you know around what year or years this would have been? Klein: I’m going to guess it was 2003, 2004 timeframe. Franklin: Okay. Sorry to interrupt. Klein: Yeah, no, I just—so much of this is a blur in terms of who was where when. You start dealing with DC, it’s like—[LAUGHTER]—all look alike after a while. You know, I can come at it from different angles, Republicans, Democrats, you know, different folks’ emphasis and so forth. So I’m having a hard time recalling who exactly that was. But I remember Clay Sell and I can easily get back to you on when that was. Franklin: It’s okay. I was just trying to get a general sense. So you said Skip Gosling? Klein: Skip Gosling was the historian that we were working with. Clay Sell was the Deputy Secretary of Energy that was a history buff and who, I think, just, in the end, prevailed and was a decision-maker that enabled preserving this and working with Park Service. Colleen and I had a few different trips back to DC talking to these people and encouraging them—I hesitate to use the word lobbying, because it means something very, very particular, and we weren’t lobbying Congress; it was really within the Department. Although we had, certainly, allies, I think, with Patty Murray and Doc Hastings and others who, again, appreciated the Hanford history and what was done here and its significance. Franklin: Did the Hanford collection—the array of historic objects and artifacts gathered from Site—was that part of your—what you were in charge of when you were heading the DOE or was that a different— Klein: No, it was—I mean, that was under my purview. And we certainly had staff. But I must confess that of all the alligators that were surrounding the boat, that was the least of my—it wasn’t high up. I mean, that wasn’t—just too many other things were chomping at me and having to deal with. But I always felt comfortable—I mean, when you get in these positions, you kind of look at what your people are doing and you trust them in doing the right thing and you try to set a tone and direction and values and that sort of thing. So I was very fortunate—we have a very competent staff in environmental analysis and preservation, conservation. Paid attention to the different rules and governing those things. And they took care of it. They were, I think, good stewards. Franklin: Great. How did you become involved with the REACH Museum? Klein: Ah! At first it was as an ex oficio member of—it was called the REACH Board at the time. I think Colleen actually suggested it to me and them and set that up. I mean, it was an easy fit for me. As long as I was with DOE, I couldn’t be an actual member of the board. So the job was more of advisory and helping them. Of course, by that time, I think my feelings were well known that I did have a soft spot for appreciating the heritage here. Even predating the Manhattan Project, going back to the basalt flows and then the Ice Age Floods. There’s something very special and unique about this area, both the land and the people. And it’s those circumstances and things that gave rise to—I mean, the geology and the setting here is what gave rise to this being a great location for the Manhattan Project and the plutonium production mission. Which in turn brought all these incredible people here and formed a national laboratory that’s self-sustaining and a wonderful thing in its own right. And now lands are getting turned over to the port and being made available for other uses. I think it opens up opportunities for the tribes. But anyway, so the REACH was an easy fit for me to get involved in. And I’m proud to say I’m still—now I’m one what’s called the Foundation. It’s how the management structure of the REACH is set up. But they’ve overcome some very big hurdles. But I think the fact they have is—it’s meant to be, and it’s going to grow and prosper. But we still have some heavy lifts. Franklin: Okay. Is there—sorry. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford? Or just Hanford in general? Klein: I guess I’d like future generations to appreciate both the sacrifice and the significance of what happened here. That goes back to the tribes and what they sacrificed to what the early settlers that were evicted sacrificed, what the men and women involved in the construction, design, that relocated out here sacrificed, and the significance being with what was done. I’m still in awe. B Reactor up and running from nothing to up and running in 18 months, come on! I mean, it’s just—without computers and slide rules. These were adventurers, technologically, engineering, scientifically, and even management-wise. People come together. And at the same time, this is all under—because of threat of war. And creating something where people came and did this remarkable thing and have it used to kill people. There’s so many conflicting things about this to be learned so we don’t repeat the lessons of the past, yet showing what we’re capable of doing when we do come together with enough motivation and incentive and liberties. It’s just remarkable. So it’s a tough one to answer, what do you want people to remember? I just hope they appreciate the whole thing. The sacrifice and the significance. Franklin: Great. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Klein: I feel drained. [LAUGHTER] If there’s something in particular that you’re interested in. Yeah, no, I just feel like I’ve been spouting out all over the place here. Franklin: No, it was great. You really touched on a lot of really pertinent topics and it’s really nice to have your interview next to Mike Lawrence—you know, just this kind of documenting this post-production change. I think it’ll be really crucial to help people figure out—this is all part of the same story, and how people figure out, okay, what happened when that singular mission was kind of over, and how did this place kind of find its identity after that, that the whole mission had changed. So thank you. And thank you for talking to us today. Klein: Well, I’m just—it comes back, like the STEM identity. I’m just hoping and optimistic that we can have a future that’s as distinctive and worthy as the significance of our predecessors did out here. Because it really changed the world, when you—it really is mind-blowing in a lot of respects. I’m just grateful to have the opportunity to be a little part of that continuum. Yeah, the fastest eight years of my life. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, thank you, Keith. I really appreciate it. Klein: Yeah, you bet, Robert. <a href="https://youtu.be/MAy7K26aMgY">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:55 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) WIPP (Waste Isolation Pilot Project) K Basins PNNL (Pacific Northwest National Laboratory) ERDF (Environmental Restoration Disposal Facility) K Reactors ORP (Office of River Protection) B Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1970- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1973- Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Sam Volpentest Bob Ferguson Kevin Smith Skip Gosling Patty Murray Doc Hastings Mike Lawrence Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Keith Klein Description An account of the resource Keith Klein first moved to Richland, Washington in 1973. Keith worked for the Atomic Energy Commission and later the U.S. Department of Energy from 1970-2007. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02-07-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Rocky Flats (Colo.) Carlsbad (N.M.) Breeder reactors Radioactive waste disposal Radioactive waste sites Hazardous waste site remediation Columbia River 300 Area Atomic Energy Commission B Reactor B Reactor Museum Association Bechtel BRMA Cold War Department of Energy Flood Floods Hanford K Basin K Basins K Reactor K-Basin K-Basins Manhattan Project Mountain Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Park River Safety Savannah River supplies T Plant War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3bebc045a8bd6bdc41a719fa2a4b4074.jpg 60cd087454284e4610b20063deeb5a15 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2a01093d368bb8cae02897f4e95055d6.mp4 3724148ed703998256c4e9b8061ee708 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Grasper Description An account of the resource An interview with Ken Grasper conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc859c35d53f30197a45de1117b61ce41.jpg c36592a6a4e4b8b396ccf90a14724630 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F33dc9e841300d7236da1f22e7959c89a.mp4 1b2b56bc317f0eeb4cf02aa823215d75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Heid Description An account of the resource An interview with Ken Heid conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5004807cdab02ed901130c6c2d144671.JPG 1d9ff302dc0efcf4ee11d86c83d6be20 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fddda1570e3fff97baa01b4ef0f7d0005.mp4 2e095f92470d1f4278f84252b3f1b62d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ken Silliman Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Silliman_Ken Camera man: I'm recording. Robert Bauman: All right. So I'm going to get the formal stuff out of the way first, and then we’ll talk. My name is Robert Bauman, and I'm interviewing Mr. Ken Silliman. And today is July 2nd of 2013. Interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Silliman about his family's history about growing up in Kennewick and about his memories of the area and the impact of Hanford on the area and so forth. So Mr. Silliman, I'm going to start by just asking you to talk a little bit about your family and how and why they came to Kennewick. Ken Silliman: Well, my mother's family was Case, and the Cases came in 1894 to the state of Washington. They came to Goldendale and then down to the Prosser area. And my granddad homesteaded then on Rattlesnake. When my mother and dad got married in 1914, Dad farmed a section of Grandpa's land for a year. And then he went out to the Weller Ranch and leased that. And he farmed that I believe until 1928 as close as I can figure. Couldn't afford to farm any more on dryland wheat on Rattlesnake, so he eventually took a job at Farmers Exchange. And that's how we got down to Kennewick. And then bought one of the partners out in '34 and the other one in '43, and we've had it since then. Bauman: Okay. And so you moved into Kennewick in the 19-- Silliman: 1930. Bauman: 1930, Okay. And then you were born in Kennewick? Silliman: Yes. My brothers were all born on Rattlesnake. I was born in Kennewick in 1931. Bauman: Okay. And what sort of memories do you have of Kennewick as a young boy growing up? What sort of community was it like? What sorts of things did you do for fun? Silliman: Well, it was a very, very small town. Even in 1940, it was probably a little under 2,000 people. If anything happened in town and you got in any kind of trouble, well, your parents already knew about it by the time you got home. I learned to swim in the Columbia River and the irrigation canal there. Kennewick was very small. 10th Avenue was the boundary line of it on the south, Olympia on the west, and just past Gum Street on east. So there wasn't much town here. Bauman: And so was it mostly an agricultural area then? Silliman: Definitely, definitely ag. Both fruit and dry land wheat. Dry land wheat controlled a lot of the money that was spent in the area in that. Bauman: Okay. I want you to talk about Farmers Exchange a little bit. I know your--was it your grandfather or your father who bought part of the business? Silliman: My father. Bauman: Your father. Silliman: Yeah. Carl Williams and Alfred Amon, who were two dryland wheat farmers, started it either in '23 or '24. I can prove both dates there. [LAUGHTER] They came in towns, started--Alfred was mayor in Kennewick four different times. I believe it was in four different decades. And Carl Williams I believe was one of the trustees for WSU a period of time there. Bauman: And so initially, what sorts of things did Farmers Exchange do? Silliman: Well, it started as a livestock trading outfit. Trade horses for pigs or chickens for cows or just whatever you wanted to trade there. And then they got into the feed business a little bit to feed their own livestock and to sell a little bit. Got into garden seeds just a little bit. They were located right behind Washington Hardware on what at that time was Front Street. It's now Canal Drive. And our livestock pens were between us and Washington Hardware. They finally decided that, the city did, they did not want the livestock there a half block off Kennewick Avenue. So we moved our livestock down to behind Church's Grape Juice there on some leased land. And then when that Dad bought Alfred out, the last partner in '43, he couldn't go out and trade livestock and run the store, too. So we did away with the livestock at that time. Other than we still given into chickens, and rabbits, and wild turkeys, and things like that yet. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So did you help out at the store when you were growing up? Silliman: Oh, sure. I worked the store. I was small for my age, so I didn't start right away there. And at that time the feed was all 100 pound bags except for wheat. It was in catch weights, which was just whatever would fit in the bag. It could be 125, 130, 120 there in that. Yeah, I worked there as a kid. But when I say how long I've worked there--which is 59 years--I don't count when I worked there as a kid because I probably wasn't worth much. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Silliman: But also of course we know we worked in the orchards there. So we cut asparagus after the war started. They let us out early. They started school late so that we could go out and cut asparagus in the morning. Then we'd have to go to school some on Saturday to make up that time. Bauman: Hm. Interesting. So what was school like in Kennewick in the 1930s, 1940s? Silliman: Well, it changed considerably from the '30s to the '40s. They built the new high school in Kennewick in '36. And the first graduating class was '37, one of my brothers that I was later in business with was in that class. And I started first grade in the fall of '37 there. But very, very small. You knew everybody until about '43. Then things went nuts. People have asked us, didn't we resent all of a sudden, the class was just being overflowing and having to use extra rooms and storage buildings and stuff like that. We didn't think about that too much. Just more kids to play with. And a lot of those kids that came in the '40s are still my very, very close friends. Bauman: Growing up, do you remember any community celebrations, picnics, 4th of July parades, any of those sort of community events? Silliman: Oh, yes. We're right on 4th of July right now. And they always had a big to do it at the Keewaydin Park there. The Brandland wheat farmers would normally maybe make one round around outside of their field to make sure their machine was working. Then they'd take a break and come to the to-do downtown here. And then right after that, they'd usually start harvest there. Then there was the Gape Festival in the '40s I would guess, '46, '47. I remember that one specifically. They had two different entertaining groups. They had Spike Jones here and Jack Teagarden. And when Spike Jones sent them their contracts, there was two different contracts. And there were different amounts of money. So they took the cheaper one. So he put on the same show for three days in a row. That was right in the street there in the 200 Block on Kennewick Avenue. But some of the other Grape Festivals were held up around Keewaydin Park in that. We used to have rodeos up where the high school, Kennewick High School is now in there. Bauman: And so you were born in 1932? Silliman: '31. Bauman: '31. And so you, when you were growing up, in the Great Depression, did you have a sense that there was an economic depression going on? Or as a young kid, were you not really fully aware of this? Silliman: I probably wasn't fully aware of it. We had a great big garden. We had a couple milk cows. We had chickens. We were pretty self-sufficient there on it. I got a new pair of shoes usually the start of school, new pair of overalls. So I was doing fine, yeah. Probably the folks were having to scrape and stoove for it. Bauman: So going back to talking about the Farmers Exchange a little bit more, you mentioned that your father was partners with-- Silliman: He went to work for Carl and Alfred. Then in '34, he bought Carl out. And he and Alfred then were partners until '43 when Alfred wanted to go run his cherry orchard. And so Dad bought him out there. Things were simpler then. They wrote the contract with an indelible pencil and half a piece of paper and tore the bottom half off. And I still have that contract. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Didn't have a roomful of attorneys there-- Silliman: [LAUGHTER] No, no. Bauman: --to do the contract. So you mentioned one thing you noticed when, at some point, in the 1940s, suddenly there were a lot more students in schools in Kennewick. I wonder if you could talk about any other changes you noticed or impact the Hanford site on the town of Kennewick? Silliman: Well yes, there was a lot of things. Avenue C went from the Old Grain Bridge to Benton Street and then as Columbia Avenue down to the river. And that was houses, basically. All of a sudden, any space that had a place where you'd put a trailer or any building that you didn't have rain coming through it was rented out. I remember one time, I think it was in '43, that we lived at 603 North Everett which was down by the river about half a block off the river. And we were out in the yard on a Sunday. This car drove by several times, a little coupe with a man and woman in it. And finally the man got out and came and said, do you know any place we can rent a bed and bath there? We've lived here for a week just in our car and we just can't find anything. My dad said why don't you sit down and have some iced tea. And I'll call around, surely I can find something. He came out about a half hour later and said you're right, there just nothing for rent in Kennewick. He said you might as well stay with us until you find something. And they lived with us for about a month. He was an engineer from the East Coast and his wife. Bauman: Right, so it impacted your family directly, at least-- Silliman: Oh, yeah. And the schools and everything else there. The road, when the workers would come home there at quitting time, the roads would be so full you couldn't even get on Columbia Avenue and that. I remember Newman's Grocery, finally they had—most of the groceries closed at 6 o'clock. He started a second grocery on the corner of Benton and Kennewick Avenue. It was a cash and carry rather than a charge and fill your order for you. But he had stayed open late so the Hanford workers could get back and get some groceries there. Entertainment, I remember the folks would take their car over Saturday sometime and park on Kennewick Avenue, leave their car there. And then they'd go over in the evening and people would walk down street and visit. And women would sit in the cars and men would walk up and down the street and visit to different guys. It was a different time. Bauman: You mentioned more students in school. Were more schools built then? Silliman: Well, not right away. My favorite thing to do as a little boy was to go with my dad when he was trading livestock. And he'd go to Wallula, or Pasco, or Connell, or Benton City, or Richland. And I always had to ask him, when we crossed the river, whether we were going into Benton City or Richland because they were both very, very, very small towns there. I think Richland had a store in it run by John Dam, if I recall right. And his daughter was our sixth grade teacher there, Geri Dam was her name. Bauman: So you did occasionally—you did go to the other towns sort of in the area at times? Silliman: Oh sure. We came up to football games. Kennewick, Pasco, and Richland--Pasco and Richland kind of fought back and forth. Pasco of course was a railroad town and that. But we had friends in Pasco and we had friends in Richland. And we competed against some of them there. Bauman: Mm-hm. So any other changes or ways that the sort of significant growth seemed to affect Kennewick at all, if you can remember? Obviously it changed some of the business practices. They stayed open later, at least— Silliman: That grocery store did. Yeah, mm-hm. Things were just chock full. Everything was chock full. For instance, there was a place called Camel's Cabins right at the base of the old Green Bridge. And I've heard stories that at times, he had some CCC camp type places there with boards up about four foot and then canvas over the top. He rented those for eight hours at a time. You moved in, ate, slept, got out so the next family could come in there. Bauman: Wow. Silliman: So like I say, everything was just chock full. Bauman: Right, right. Now, do you remember--so you were born in '31. So you were about 12 years old in '43 when the Hanford project started. I guess, first of all, do you remember--going back to 1941, when the attack on Pearl Harbor-- do you remember-- Silliman: Oh certainly. Bauman: --that sort of thing. And do you have any memories from that? And then when did you find out about something happening out at Hanford? Silliman: Well you never knew what was happening in Hanford. If you asked somebody what was happening out there, they said they're building Wendell Willkie buttons or nylon stockings or something like that that you couldn't get a hold of. But of course, everything like sugar and shoes were rationed. Bauman: And when did you find out what was going on at Hanford? After the war ended, after the bombs? Silliman: Yes. You just did not hear what was going on. And if somebody did say anything, they weren't there very long. Yeah. Bauman: You just knew there was some sort of big project that people were working on? Silliman: Yes, that's all we knew, was a big project. B. Yeah. And so going back, do you remember finding out about World War II itself, the attack on Pearl Harbor? Silliman: Oh yeah. As I recall, it was on a Sunday. And it affected me because my brother Clint, who was working for J.C. Penney's up in Palouse, he enlisted right away with the caveat that he be able to bring his stuff home before he went in. So he got to be home for Christmas. So that's the last Christmas he was home for a number of years. Bauman: Right, so your family was impacted very immediately. Silliman: Mm-hm. Yeah, all three of my brothers were in World War II. Bauman: And so then what about yourself? What happened with you after finishing high school? What did you do from that point on? Silliman: Well, I had grown up with a friend that lived down in the garden tracts with me there. His name was Bill Bryce. We'd gone all the way through--we played together before school. Went to school together. Walked back and forth to school together. Went to college together. Roomed together in college. Then when the Korean War broke out, they weren't giving deferments to begin with. So I enlisted and he sat it out. And finally they gave deferments there. So he went ahead and completed his college there and then went to University of Washington. That was at Central. And then he went on to the University of Washington and got his masters. And then did his service and put in his career with Boeing. In fact, he was responsible for writing the Boeing contract out here a number of years ago when Boeing was doing the computer service out here. He was the sales manager. Bauman: And then what point did you come back to Farmers Exchange? Silliman: When I got out of the service, I was considering a job with Fairchild Camera Corporation. I was in a RB-36 reconnaissance bomber outfit that used a lot of cameras. My job was to run the shop to repair and service those. And I got offered a job there. But it would've been travelling. And by this time, I married while I was in the service. And my brother came back to South Dakota where I was stationed at Ellsworth and said, would you like to come back to the store? And that's what I always want to do all my life. So I took him up on that. And when we got out, my wife I came back here and went to work. And I've been there ever since. Bauman: And what year was that? Silliman: That was 1954. And Clint and I and Dad were in partnership. Them we bought Dad out shortly after that. Then Clint and I were in partners until '81. His son was going to buy him out, and then he backed out. So I bought him out. And then they shut down Hanford. [LAUGHTER] And boy, did it have an effect on us through the '80s. Just almost busted us. Bauman: Really? Silliman: Yeah. Bauman: Hm. So again, more impact related to Hanford? Silliman: Oh yeah. And Hanford still has a big impact on us. We didn't realize, some of these people that traded with us had been trading with us for a number of years. We didn't know what they did. To us, that's Old Joe, you know? And in '81 when they started laying all those people off, Old Joe was coming in and saying hey, I make sure the family gets the feed and stuff they need. I’ll send you a check, I'm going to Texas or somewhere else and see what I can find. So it really had an effect on us in the '80s. Some of the layoffs since then haven't had as big effect. But they still affect us. Bauman: Yeah, so it definitely says something about the economic impact that- Silliman: But there's been more diversification since then. Bauman: Mm-hm, mm-hm. And since 1954, a lot of grown in Kennewick? Silliman: Considerably. Bauman: Changed quite a bit from 1954. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen since 1954 in Kennewick? Obviously the size is one of them, right? Silliman: The size, the selection, the competition. You know, every time they open a big box store, they handle something that we handle there. But we find we can compete with them through service and other ways. And we've had to change. We started off trading cattle. Now we trade lawn mowers and power equipment there. We still have the feed. We still have the garden supplies. We've enlarged that. But you wouldn't recognize the store from what it was when I was a boy. We've also bought other buildings around us and expanded there. Bauman: But still in downtown Kennewick? Silliman: The same location. Other than the one move that we made there in '39 from behind Washington Hardware up to where we are now. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about or that you haven't talked about in terms of, especially in terms of say, growing up in Kennewick or any stories or events that really stand that you think you'd really like to talk about? Silliman: Well during the buildup of Hanford--we'd always had dust storms here. But during the build up of the Hanford, all the ground was been worked. And we had dust storms--you might as well just close everything down because you couldn't see, you couldn't drive there. It was just really bad. Obviously, part of it was from the dryland wheat farmer. But a lot of it was just from everything building up on that. We were offered some land to collect a debt one time. And my brother and I went out and looked at it and decided it was too far out of town and the town wasn't building that way. And so we said no, we couldn't use that for payment for the debt. That land was at 395 and 10th Avenue in Kennewick which now has got a whole bunch of businesses and PUD and that there, so-- Bauman: Probably a pretty valuable piece of property. Silliman: Yeah. And you know everything built west to begin with. The city was able to--when Columbia Center came in--was able to slip in there and take a road, make it city property and get that in the city of Kennewick. But now it's building to the south in the downtown area. I've seen it go up and down and up and down. At one time I thought it was going to be just not livable down there. But it's changed again now. New storefronts, the businesses are filling the downtown area. When we came home in '54, my wife was not from here. So I took her around the Tri-Cities. And we start grading the areas. We graded Pasco as the best shopping area in the Tri-Cities. 4th and Lewis just had all sorts of stores around it. Good shoe stores and good clothing stores and that. Richland was nice and clean up there too. Not as many stores though. We rated Pasco first, Richland second, and Kennewick a very--downtown Kennewick a very poor third. We had J.C. Penney and that was about it. And that has changed. I would rate now Kennewick maybe as the top of the older areas there. Bauman: The downtown? Silliman: Yeah. Bauman: What would you like for someone who maybe decades from now might be interested in watching your interview or something and learning more about Kennewick or about the Tri-Cities or that sort of thing, what do you think is most important for them to understand about the town of Kennewick that you grew up in the 1930s and 1940s? Silliman: Well, it went from a strictly farm community. Everybody was either involved in farming somehow or dealing with farmers and that. And were the orchards were have been torn out. Now there's houses where the biggest grape vineyard, Concord grape vineyard was in the world. It's now buildings there. Those grapes are gone. So it's just entirely changed. The Tri-Cities is become a metropolitan type area there. And what are they, fourth or fifth in the state as far as there? You got Tacoma, Seattle, Tacoma, Spokane, and then maybe the Tri-Cities? Good place to live. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Well, do you have any other things that you'd like to talk about or think would be important to talk about? Silliman: Not that I can think of. Bauman: Great. Well thank you very much-- Silliman: You bet. It's been my pleasure. Bauman: --for coming in today and doing the interview. Silliman: I'm sorry I didn't have more on Hanford. Oh, there used be a boat that went up the river to Hanford. I believe it's called the Hanford Flyer. And a number of years ago when the Tri-City Herald was repainting one of their buildings and striped the paint off, I noticed on the building, on the east side of the building, there which--and this building is just south of their main building. It had a sign up there for the Hanford Flyer. Bauman: It was still on the building? Silliman: Yeah. But they covered it of course when they repainted. Bauman: Do you have any idea what years the Hanford Flyer was in operation? Silliman: No, I do not. I meant to ask Tom Moak about that, if he had some information. Bauman: And so what did it take up? Silliman: I believe it took mail. And it would take passengers and freight up. Bauman: That's a great story, and that it was still on the building after all those years. Silliman: Yeah. There used be a couple horse troughs there in downtown Kennewick too, but they're all gone too. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Great. All right. Well Mr. Silliman, thanks very much. Silliman: Thanks for having me, Bob. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:28:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 189 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1931-today Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Case Family Carl Williams Alfred Amon Brandland Spike Jones Jack Teagarden John Dam Geri Dam Clint Bill Bryce Tom Moak Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Silliman Description An account of the resource An interview with Ken Silliman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07-02-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 1954 Boeing Dam Entertainment Grain Hanford Kennewick Park River School Street Sun supplies War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fed17f0bc2de7f6320fb16aa574421aa4.jpg 6a3264053fd3370ca35b3d93f4bb6ff3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc846ad6038f4ad04b254c6d8c1260b32.mp4 900fbad8eb568aeac37d9787d3977f9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kennith Swinth Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kennith Swinth Description An account of the resource An interview with Kennith Swinth conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb75b99a2f45f614b69928ea76009cb60.jpg 1df693ddde5d1f0d0411fab76e3f0456 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa1cb0908841d6b0482b712c66682f79e.mp4 47087687241c3de93b1ef2affd5f7181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lane Bray Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lane Bray Description An account of the resource An interview with Lane Bray conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0002e805a4733b3ab3fe9d2dbc2a48b8.jpg 2b75c44770171c89ca84553ad0413af9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F61f6e8f84f5fca0396d9f67f4d53980c.mp4 ec76d1581738f0a8d86833d8e42fd7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Brackenbush Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Brackenbush Description An account of the resource An interview with Larry Brackenbush conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fddffc58635cc7016df42ace81212991a.jpg f739ce8953a137171255777099492201 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F93ac8f3560c4f5a1c325fb10d359aa2e.mp4 d06bdcebfb6b9c077c801860cf99b824 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Cadwell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Cadwell Description An account of the resource An interview with Larry Cadwell conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1051375d32a1e9141089c6adc4042442.jpg ada8daecd6696d7b94e3d7c90880262c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5f7b37f158cdac90944618b1e29d2fdd.mp4 55099baa2daf5f93789cc86b742cc29a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Denton Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Denton Description An account of the resource An interview with Larry Denton conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F329749fd42c233cf6cd2c02dc34e1314.JPG 98d42c9d88f2243abec0c2b50adc08dd https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F41556d64837fd14beb77a5c103e2ec43.mp4 d7ae61c1201c7caca4f3f86fbd36c455 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Gabaldon Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Larry Gabaldon on July 11, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Larry about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Larry Gabaldon: Larry Gabaldon. G-A-B-A-L-D-O-N. Franklin: And L-A-R-R-Y? Gabaldon: Larry? Yes. Franklin: Okay. So, Larry, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. Or, are you from the area? Gabaldon: No, I’m from, originally from New Mexico. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: And I went in the service for four years, and I had a brother-in-law that worked up here in farming and chicken, or egg producing field. And he says, when you get out of the service, if you need a job, come on up. So I came up to work for him, and within six months or so, people told me, you should go out and work in the Area and make big money. And I—what area? I had no clue. So I looked into it and I joined the electrical union and within 11 months or so I was out there working. Franklin: What year was it that you— Gabaldon: 1977. Franklin: Okay. So did you have electrician training in the service then, or how did you get into that field? Gabaldon: No, other than—this sounds crazy, but wiring chicken houses. But these are huge, you know, they’re 80,000 chickens per house. So they’re huge commercial operation. And the processing plants and stuff. So I was an electrician there and I learned a lot in a hurry and was running crews and stuff like that. And I’m bilingual so that helped a lot. So anyway, I didn’t know anybody in the electrical field, you know, out here where a lot of people, you either need to have a relative or a friend or somebody that could help you get in. Like I said, I was only here for about 11 months. Anyway, they hired me. Franklin: And what was the first job you had out on the Site? Gabaldon: The 300 Area, as an electrician—electrician apprentice. I tried to drive right onto the 300 Area, it’d be the north gate. And got stopped. [LAUGHTER] And a superintendent was coming out at the same time. He says, oh, you must be the new electrician apprentice. So he kind of escorted me over to the electrical trailer. Franklin: So were there still the buses in those days, or--? Gabaldon: Yes, yeah there was. Franklin: Oh, okay. But you didn’t know about the buses, or—did you not— Gabaldon: No, they said report out to the 300 Area and I drove right out there. Yeah, I didn’t—it was all new to me. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Did you know right away what was being made at Hanford, or did you just know it was a good-paying job? Gabaldon: As I started, you know, getting closer and closer, I was learning more and more about it. I was asking a lot of questions. Of course, as soon as I went out there, they’re telling me to put these coveralls on and all this plastic stuff. And, why? [LAUGHTER] There’s a lot of people that just didn’t want to do it. They’d just quit. As soon as they’d tell them they had to put all this PPE, they’d just, nope, I’ll go somewhere else and work. But it was interesting. And you understand it. It made sense then, anyway. Franklin: What do you mean? Gabaldon: As far as, you know, protecting yourself from contamination. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Did you find it challenging to run electrical lines and do electrician work in the PPE? Gabaldon: Sure, sure. It was hotter. It was probably the worst thing about it. You know, it was a lot of time consuming. Things go at a slow pace out there. By the time you get dressed and get in and get out, there’s a lot to it. Franklin: Did you work with guys who were around your age, or were there some senior guys in the— Gabaldon: I would say most of them were senior. They’d been around there for a while. And then there was a few newcomers like me. But, yeah, most of them were senior. Franklin: What types of buildings did you work out and support out at the 300 Area? Gabaldon: Well, just pretty much all of them. I mean, 300 Area had a pretty diverse type of buildings. There was—I’m trying to remember the buildings, but 305, 308, some of the things that stuck out were the labs—not labs, the cells down there. I’m not sure what they call them now. The lead cells with these big windows, lead windows. I mean, it was a big operation to penetrate those for a conduit or for electrical wires. You know, they had manipulators that went in and out, and we actually used the manipulators to help if we could. Franklin: Oh, really? Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. To pull wire. I mean, you feed it in from the outside. And I’ve been in the cells. I had to dress up. And those cells are only probably eight by eight, if that. And then they’re full of junk, full of piping. Once they put it in there, they don’t take it out. So it just keeps getting cluttered. And then now you’re dressed up with a full two pair of coveralls and plastics and usually fresh air. And gloves, you’ve got three pairs of gloves on. Franklin: I imagine that gets really—I mean not only does that decrease your manual dexterity, but I imagine that gets unbearably hot. Gabaldon: Sure, that’s what I mean. Franklin: How would you guys deal with that? Especially in the summertime. Gabaldon: Well, there was—not so much—time was a big thing. Just limit your time in there. And then radiation limited your time quite a bit, too. But out in 100-N, we’d go out there for outages, and they actually had icepacks. A vest that they’d keep in the freezers, and they’d put these icepacks on you. They’d last, you know, an hour. Of course, now, they’re heavy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I was going to say, that seems— Gabaldon: So they’d melt and now you’re carrying this water around. Franklin: Wow, that sounds—I mean, I guess you’d appreciate that inside, but that sounds really uncomfortable at first. Gabaldon: Mm-hmm. And then fresh air—there’s a purge system on those things that blows air, and you could keep somewhat fresh air blowing on your face at least. Franklin: And was that a tank that—or was it a hose—would you carry the fresh air in with you, or was it a hose that— Gabaldon: Both. It’s both. We carried tanks on our backs, if it was too far in, too remote. But if it was within, I think, I can’t remember, 300 feet or better—about 300 feet, I think, was the max, you could run the hoses. Franklin: Wow. Gabaldon: Hoses, of course, were unlimited. You could stay a little bit longer and, like I say, use lots of air. Where the tanks, they would run out. Franklin: Right, yeah, and you don’t want to run out. Gabaldon: No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: In one of those cells. So you started as an apprentice. And how long did it take for you to become a full electrician? Gabaldon: Four years. Four years, at least. Franklin: Is that pretty standard? Gabaldon: It’s five years now. Yeah. But I got in just right before that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Kind of got grandfathered in. Gabaldon: Yeah. Franklin: What were some of the unique challenges, in your mind, to working at a place like Hanford, versus a more commercial building? Gabaldon: Well, I guess that, the radiation was probably one of the biggest. Having to dress up and having to do things in a way that you can pull wire in, you can’t pull it out. Everything goes into a cell or into a contaminated area, but very little comes out. Franklin: Yeah, what would you do if you had to change wiring or run—you know, you had old wiring in the way. What would you do in that case? Gabaldon: Well, like I said, you would pull it, but you can’t—it might be easy to pull it out, but you can’t. You’ve got to pull it in. Contamination, you don’t want to be spreading it. So it would all go in. Once it was in, it was trash. It was contaminated trash. So it had to be disposed of a particular way. So once it was trash, we didn’t deal with it. Laborers would come in and dispose of it some way. Franklin: Oh, okay. So it wouldn’t—all of it wouldn’t accumulate but maybe certain types of things would. Gabaldon: Sure. Depending on how contaminated it was. So, you know, the HPTs or the techs there would determine that. Franklin: What was the most I guess frustrating space that you ever had to work in as an electrician, or job that presented the most challenges to you, onsite? Gabaldon: Well, those cells come to mind. It’s in the 300 Area there, but there’s a place where railroad cars back in there and they fill them with waste of who-knows-what. But we were just working on the building and the heaters and the lights and stuff like that. We’re in a man lift, a JLG, I don’t know what they call them, but anyway, a basket. We were trying to keep the machine from getting contaminated, so they’re trying to protect the tires and stuff. And then it extends out above this train and the closer you got to this train car, the more the radiation, the dose rate was higher. So you were always worried about that dose rate. But they had all kinds of gizmos and gadgets for timers and all these pencils. So they were keeping pretty good track of you. Franklin: The pencil dosimeters? Gabaldon: That’s a dosimeter you carry all the time. But when it was a higher dose, they gave you, I want to say a patty. But it was a timer and it measured radiation, and you were allowed so many, you know, I think it was 300 millirem a week? I forget what the doses were. But anyway they would set it 20-30% lower than that, so as soon as that went off, you had to come out. And that was frustrating, as to—you’re just about done, and it goes, beep, beep, beep, you’ve got to get out! Franklin: Wow. Gabaldon: And so you come out. And then you may not be able to go back in, so somebody else has to go in. So you’ve got to explain everything to them and what you did and how to finish it. Franklin: Did that happen— Gabaldon: Oh, constantly. Franklin: Constantly? Gabaldon: Yeah. And out in the outer areas, 100-N especially, they called them burn outs, where they would take us in on a Friday afternoon and we would work for maybe two hours and we would get burned out for that week. Which, like I say, if it was 300, we would get up there about 280 or so in the dose rate. So we’re done for the week. Well, the new week started at 4:30, whenever we got off work. So they’d pay us overtime, and now we’re on the next week, so they would send us in for another two hours, and they’d burn us out for the next week. So now we’re no good for two weeks—or at least for another week. So they’d send us back here to the 300 Area. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: So they’d rotate all the people out there. But you’d only get it to go in there for maybe an hour or two hours. Not a whole lot you can do. And then like I said, you’re done; somebody else is going to take over. Franklin: That sounds like that would be really complicated to do a large project in that kind of— Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --situation. Gabaldon: The pipefitters, I’ve seen where they were running in, making three or four turns on a wrench or a pipe wrench and right back out. And then here comes another guy right behind him, doing the same thing until they would tighten a fitting or a bolt or whatever they’re doing. But it may take four or five people to do one bolt or one fitting. Just because they can only be in there two or three minutes. Franklin: Right. Gabaldon: So I never had to get real close to that, thank God. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like that’s pretty—you would be working in a pretty hot area. Gabaldon: Yeah, real hot areas. Franklin: Wow. What was the most challenge—I already asked you that one. What was the most rewarding job that you—or project you supported in your time onsite? Gabaldon: Wow, there’s quite a few. I’m trying to remember some of them, but a lot of them—there’s the 331 Building, where they had a lot of animals. They were doing all kinds of studies on them. We would watch the progression of them, you know, the animals, some animals had been there for years, and others were just coming in. We would set up whatever they needed as far as electrical support. So we would be able to watch something from the start and right through the end, we could see the whole thing. Even if we were finished with that, we’d be on another project right next to it or close by. So we could see the finished product, I guess. Where a lot of places, you know, you go in and they tell you pull wire from A to B, and you do that, and that’s your job and that’s all you know. But what did the wire do, what’s it for? And the same thing, another crew went in and said, run conduit from A to B and had no idea what. The 300 Area, we got to do everything. We ran the conduit, ran the wire, hooked it up, and turned it on and tested it. So you know, we’d walk away when it’s complete. Franklin: Right. But certainly—if I get what you’re saying, there was a greater level of detailed completeness at Hanford because you were— Gabaldon: Well, the 300 Area. Franklin: 300 Area. Gabaldon: Yes. Speaking of which, where I—I started in the 300 Area. Eventually I ended up at some of the bigger plants: Hanford 1 and 4, Hanford 2. Anyway, they were big jobs. And I got into a little bit of that where you have a print that only shows this part of the building, and it says run from here to here. You have no idea why. And you’ll never see the end of it; you’ll never see the finished product. It was not as—you went home whether you did something or not, it didn’t mean anything. It didn’t have any meaning to it. Where, here, you know, you looked forward to, we’re almost done, we’re going to finish this, we’re going to make it work. Franklin: So you liked the kind of—sounds like it was more of like a collegiate or community at 300. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Because of—maybe you’re saying because of the smaller buildings or the—kind of how things were, there were a lot of different small projects in 300 Area, versus really large ones. Gabaldon: Yes. And they were all smaller projects. There was a few larger projects where—not very many buildings went up, but—where you might work on the same project for a couple, three months. But usually it was smaller stuff. Just building a greenhouse around a building so that they can open up hatches into a hot area. Of course we’d have to put in ventilation and lighting and maybe heating. Just creature— Franklin: Why would they need to do that? Gabaldon: Where are they? There’s pits, they’re, I want to say, valve pits. So the fitters need to go in there and change valves, replace valves or fix valves, whatever. But these pits are—you know, they’re fenced off, and then you go in closer and they’re concrete pits and they’ve got big, concrete lids. Those are all sealed up. I don’t know what—they’re obviously pumping something contaminated or hot. So they go in and build a greenhouse, encase, enclose it. And of course now they need lights. But then they need ventilation to change the air out. Then they come in with a crane and pull these big concrete lids and expose it. So everything’s got to be contained. And there may be some electrical work in there, too. Franklin: So it sounds like it’s a pretty big greenhouse, then, if it can accommodate a crane. Gabaldon: Well, no, the crane—they would open up a small opening, just for the cable. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. Gabaldon: Yeah, big crane sitting outside somewhere. And then as soon as it’s done, they kind of—and there you go again with the contamination. That cable, they’re doing everything they can to keep the part of the cable that comes in the greenhouse covered. They cover it with plastic or something, and they’re checking it as it comes out. I hear about locomotives and bulldozers and everything else being buried out there because they’re contaminated. Rather than trying to clean them up, they just bury them. Franklin: Yeah, that’s—a lot of what’s in that tunnel that collapsed recently is material of that nature. Gabaldon: They don’t know what— Franklin: A guy described it to me as contaminated solids—solid equipment. It’s not waste as we think about waste, but, yeah, containing liquid and it was too costly or impractical to decontaminate. Gabaldon: Right, right. Franklin: So how long did you work in the 300 Area for? Gabaldon: Off and on for 23 or 24 years, 25 years, I suppose. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Gabaldon: I worked a total of 27 years, but the last, oh, I’d say, in that total time, maybe three or four years, I worked, oh, in town here locally. And then some of the bigger projects. But, like I said, I didn’t care for the kind of work. As soon as I had a chance to go back to the 300 Area, I was ecstatic when I got to go back there. Franklin: Yeah? What other projects did you—you said you did shutdown out at N Reactor. Gabaldon: 100-N, yes. Franklin: Right? And how long did you do that for? Gabaldon: I did quite a few of the burnouts I was telling you about. We’d go out there for maybe a week or two at a time. And it was still kind of a loan basis, where, maybe low on work where we were, and they needed help out there, so we’d go out there and work for them. Franklin: And also maybe low on exposure, too. Gabaldon: Well, that was where the burnouts were, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, right, right. So they could take you and kind of send you back to the 300 Area. Gabaldon: We would get small doses in the 300 Area, and sporadically here and there. But out there, you definitely got a big dose. Franklin: In these burnouts, what kind of work exactly—to get that amount of dose in a couple hours, you must’ve been working kind of near the core, or--? Gabaldon: Well, we were supporting pipefitters, most of the time. And I just remember big tanks and having to crawl under these tanks to get on the other side of them—that’s the only way you could access—and set up lighting for whatever their project was. So we had to drag cords and these quartz lights. Franklin: How much space did you have to go under these tanks? Gabaldon: Oh. I would say less than two feet. Probably 18 or—very little. Franklin: And you were in PPE? Gabaldon: Two pair of coveralls and plastic and then, I believe, fresh air. Fresh air with a hose. Franklin: Wow, and dragging equipment. Gabaldon: Oh yeah. Franklin: There was no other way to get to the other side of these— Gabaldon: No. I got contaminated in that instance there. I got contaminated. There was—like I say, they told me to go in, and there was a ladder. Go down the ladder, under these tanks and set up lighting. So with these masks, you have these big canisters and your field of vision is pretty limited. So when you—to look at something, you can’t just look at it; you’ve got to turn your head. So, anyway, I had to back down this ladder and I’m trying to get all these hoses to give enough slack. And the ladder stuck up—but it wasn’t a ladder, it was just a, I want to say homemade, but it was made with steel, and it must’ve been longer but the cut it off with a torch. So it had really rough, sharp edges on top. I’m looking at the ladder, and I turned around to go down the ladder backwards, and when I did, when I backed up, it poked me in the back of my leg. And I’m like, oh, there it is, okay, so I moved over, and okay now I’ve got ahold of both ladders and I slowly went down the ladder. And then I crawled under these tanks. Well, it’s wet down there, very wet. That’s why we were wearing plastic. And I had a hole in the plastic that I didn’t know about. So anyway I got some moisture in there. When we came out, they—you walk in with your arms spread and laborers that are cutting tape and cutting plastic and taking it off away from you to keep you clean. And then you go to the next step-off pad and they take your first layer of coveralls off. And they kind of check you real quick. Anyway, I was screaming on the back of my leg. So anyway, they kind of set me off aside. They did go back and find my coveralls and find my plastics and they found where it was torn and they found the wet spot on the coveralls. Whatever liquid it was, it was contaminated. So I had to take probably four showers, scrubbing with Tide detergent laundry soap, scrubbing my leg, trying to— Franklin: Your bare leg. Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: Just about my butt, really. But the upper leg. But I was just about raw by the time—and it was still—it was 200 counts or less, but they could still read something there. But they said if they could get it down to 200 or less they’d let me go. Franklin: Okay. And they finally did? Gabaldon: They finally did. They kept my underwear. Franklin: What’s that? Gabaldon: They kept my underwear. Franklin: Kept your underwear? [LAUGHTER] Never got that back? Gabaldon: Nope. Franklin: Probably for the best. Was there any follow-up examination? Gabaldon: No, no. Franklin: And has that spot ever given you any trouble? Gabaldon: No. Not as far as I know. Franklin: Well, that’s good. Good to have caught it so quickly. I guess maybe it being wet down there may have— Gabaldon: Well, that’s what spread it, I’m sure. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. But I guess that’s also—you’d know real quick if you had a hole in your PPE if there was moisture. Gabaldon: Well, I didn’t feel it. But they sure caught it real quick. Franklin: Wow. Well, that’s good. I mean, that’s good for the safety aspect. Gabaldon: Yeah, I guess so. Franklin: That sounds like a very challenging job, you know, to crawl under tanks with all that equipment. Gabaldon: Yeah, it is, and you—yeah, I was young then, and it wasn’t a big deal. But I think about some of the older guys that are having to do that. It’s claustrophobic and it’s hard to breathe in those masks. And then you start exerting yourself, you can get overheated pretty quick. Franklin: I bet. And there’s no way to take that stuff off and get some fresh air. Gabaldon: No. Well, the thing to do is to come out. You’ve just got to come out. Franklin: Wow. And so you said you worked out at 100-N. Did you work out at any other— Gabaldon: The Tank Farms, sure. I worked at the Tank Farms for I think a year or so. Franklin: Oh, and what did you do at the Tank Farms? Gabaldon: The Tank Farms, you know, they call them farms, they’re just fenced-in areas above tanks. And all the piping that goes in and out of the tanks is there. They’re either—whatever they’re—who knows what they’re doing. But mostly, when I was there, it was mostly trying to figure out how to clean these tanks up or how to pump them out or how to examine them. So just a lot of sensors, a lot of—oh, gosh, I don’t know. Valves, electric valves, stuff like that. But same thing, you’re dressed in quite a bit of clothing, coveralls. If there was going to be any moisture at all, you’d be in plastic. There was a lot of scares, a lot of vapors and stuff that people were either getting sick or getting—smelling something. So it got to the point where it was required to have fresh air when you’d go into these areas. Of course, it kind of funny that a little chain, or a ribbon—on one side you had to have a mask and fresh air, and right on the other side of it, you’re okay. [LAUGHTER] Wide open. Franklin: Seems kind of arbitrary. Gabaldon: Yeah, so. I don’t know. It’s hard to—you know, you did what they told you to do. And I guess you had to trust and go on their, on all these machines that, the sensors that are trying to detect all this stuff. Franklin: Yeah, I guess that would need a lot of electrical support. Make sure those sensors are constantly running. Gabaldon: And all that. Yeah, it was important. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You also worked in the 400 Area, too, right? Gabaldon: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: At FFTF? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: FFTF, was that still operational when you worked— Gabaldon: It was just—it was operational at first, but then they went through the whole phase where they shut it down, and they tried to keep it up and they tried to maintain it. I remember changing batteries out for—not sure—some kind of a backup system in there. And then there’s some kind of heaters on the sodium loop that we worked on quite a bit. Franklin: Oh, to keep the sodium— Gabaldon: Keep the sodium liquid. And that was a big deal when they finally shut the power down to that, where that sodium solidified and there was no going back after that, I guess. Franklin: Yeah. Gabaldon: But the building right next to it, MASF. I started on that from the ground up. Franklin: And what is MASF? Gabaldon: Maintenance and Storage Facility for FFTF. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: It’s a square building right next to the dome. Franklin: Yeah, okay. Yes. Yeah, our project I work on, our collection of historic objects and archives used to be right in the 400 Area, right across the street from that building. We were in a warehouse out there. Gabaldon: Okay. Franklin: So that’s the only site I’ve really been to with any real frequency. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah? Franklin: And I guess it’s one of the few that’s still mostly intact, too. Everything is original— Gabaldon: Yeah, I’m not sure what—I haven’t followed it, but FFTF is just sitting there— Franklin: Yeah, it’s kind of eerie that you drive up and the old guard shack is still there, you know, and the parking lots are starting to get overgrown with weeds. There’s still a few people that are staged out there. But it’s mostly, they just use most of the warehouses for storage now, and no one’s really in the facility, except to monitor. Gabaldon: Yeah. In that building, there’s a huge crane— Franklin: In MASF? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: And what was that for? Gabaldon: Well, just moving stuff around in there. It had a huge garage door on one end where they could bring in—just huge tanks. I want to say railroad tracks went in there. Franklin: Mm. And what kind of work was involved constructing a facility from the waist—heh, from the waist up—from the ground up, at Hanford? Gabaldon: Well, obviously, a lot of big power to go into that building. So all the main power coming in, huge conduit, six-inch conduits, in the ground and ditches. Like I say, it was just a big hole in the ground when I started. So we ran all the power in there and stubbed it up where it needed to come up. And then we watched it slowly coming up. Then they started pouring concrete, and then they started building the steel structure. I remember—this is how far back it was—running conduit on the steel structure, I could walk on an eight-inch beam, 40 feet on the air, and sit on it and hang underneath it and put a piece of conduit on, and stand up and walk another ten feet and do it again. Anymore, you’ve got to be tied off. Franklin: Oh, so you were just up there. Gabaldon: Well, the ironworkers were doing it, and I thought, well, I’ve got to get out there, too. I wasn’t afraid of it; it didn’t bother me or anything. But it makes me laugh kind of. The things that we would’ve gone through if we tried to do it now, with all the safety and stuff involved. Franklin: Yeah, wow. What other types of equipment went into MASF that you helped install? Gabaldon: Like I say, when we did it, it was brand-new. I mean, it was big, wide, open space. There was very little in there. We went back, from the 300 Area, we would support that whenever they needed something. But there wasn’t a whole lot except for a little maintenance here and there. But just, it seemed like a big, open area. It’s so big that one little project was over here in the corner, and some other little project over here. But as far as what they were, I have no idea. Like I say, we just supported the building. Franklin: And you also worked in the emergency response center at what’s known as WPPSS? Gabaldon: Yes, okay. Franklin: Yeah, and what did you do there? Gabaldon: That was just pretty much a big office building, a few, I don’t want to say labs. But nothing out of the ordinary, just brand-new, and hundreds and hundreds of lights, hundreds and hundreds of plugs and receptacles and, you know what I mean? So just real basic mundane electrical work. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you weren’t called out to do electrical stuff from there, you were supporting that— Gabaldon: We built the building. Franklin: You built the building with all the lights and switches and everything had to go. Gabaldon: Yeah, the actual construction of the building. Franklin: I imagine an office takes probably a bit more—it’s probably a bit more repetitive, mundane and— Gabaldon: Yeah, a lot of—that’s what I say, a lot of repetitive, office after, one after another, everything the same over and over again. It got to be a race. How many offices can we do in one day? Or how many, whatever. You put up 100 lights today instead of, you know. Yesterday we only got 80, today we got 100. Franklin: Right, kind of challenging yourself. Gabaldon: That was the only challenge we—you know? Franklin: Yeah, the challenge wasn’t like, how do we run this wire through here in this one-of-a-kind installation? Gabaldon: No. No, it wasn’t. Now maybe at the big sites. The cooling towers, 1 and 4, I believe—or maybe it was Hanford 2. But I remember, the huge wire. Are you familiar with wire, 500mcm? Franklin: I’m not. Gabaldon: 500 millimeters—million centimeters—mcm, I’m not sure what that standards for. Anyway, it’s huge wire. It’s almost an inch in diameter. And then they’d run, there’s three legs for three-phase power. So they’d run three for A face, three for B face, three for—so there’d be nine wires plus grounds and stuff. So there’s a bundle of wire that’s huge. Pulling that wire, I mean, normally, you use some kind of a machine to pull it. It’s just, physically, it’s too much to handle. And the requirements were no mechanically—cannot be pulled mechanically. It’s got to be pulled by hand. So that was, you know, there’d be 30 or 40 of us. It’s like a team of horses—a team of people. You’d just line up, and when it was time to do that, you would bring the whole crew and they’d literally pull it by hand because they weren’t allowed to pull it with a machine. Franklin: How come they weren’t allowed to pull it with a machine? Gabaldon: Some silly spec that said that. You know, I guess not to hurt the wire. With a machine you can nick the wires or damage them in some way. Either way, it takes x amount of force to pull this wire. Whether it’s manmade force, horses, or a machine, you still have to pull that hard. But they made us do it by hand, so. I kind of—I just—you know—questioned it, but I mean, what do you? You just do what you want them to do. Franklin: Right, if that’s the spec, that’s the spec. Gabaldon: Yeah. The control room in Hanford 2, they were just getting ready to start it up. So it was just in the finishing phases, just the last things getting done. I was working in the control room, and I went out there. They hired me, and I went right directly to the control room, I remember. And they said—they gave us all kinds of brushes and dusters, like them plumes, like peacock feathers, I think they are? Some kind of a feather, brushes, you name it. There was cabinets, they kind of went around in circles somewhat, and there was just rows and rows and rows of them. And there was just millions of terminations in there, wire terminations. Our job was to dust these terminations. And I was surprised because they’re live electrical terminations; I don’t know how much voltage was in there. But we had to go in there and with a little brush dust them. And—okay. So you’d open up a cabinet and you’d start at the top and work your way down and dust all the way down. There was two of us, I believe. And it took us three days, I believe, to get through that whole control room. And, okay, we’re done. We came back and said, okay, what do you want us to do now? And he says, you got that done? Yeah, we got it. And he says, well, do it again. [LAUGHTER] I thought, again? Didn’t take long to figure out they’re basically killing time. They just wanted us to be busy there, waiting for, I guess something else to come up. They wanted to keep us entertained or busy. So we dusted them again! [LAUGHTER] But one job I’d like to have seen—once they started, everybody had to come out of there, so. But we were close to when it started, when Hanford 2 started production. Anyway. Franklin: Yeah. And so later, the 300 Area began to close down, right? So you were moved out of there. And where did you go to? Gabaldon: Oh, wow. I believe the Tank Farms. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: I think the Tank Farms is where I went. I spent a couple years—a year or two, maybe a year-and-a-half there. And then I went out to, it’s called East and West. There’s that two— Franklin: 200. Gabaldon: They’re two identical reactors? Franklin: Separations facilities, processing. Gabaldon: Okay. So I was there for you know four or five months. Then I went out to somewhere out there. Oh, gosh, it’s one of the most, the highest security jobs. Franklin: PFP? 234-5? Gabaldon: Dash-5, Dash-5. And like I said, I wasn’t even there long enough to, oh, get to know the place. I just remember lots of high security. We’d have to drive our service trucks in there, and they’d have to be searched everyday. We actually built an exercise room for the security officers. Franklin: Oh, so the— Gabaldon: Inside there. So that they wouldn’t have to come out to exercise; they could just go to work and stay in there, and just exercise and work out. Franklin: Boy, that sounds kind of nice. Gabaldon: Yeah, it was. Franklin: An exercise room when you’re— Gabaldon: It was a nice room. Franklin: You mentioned they searched your truck. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Did you get searched personally as well, or--? Gabaldon: We had to go through a metal detector. And of course show our badges and stuff. So you’d park the truck, and walk back through and go through metal detectors and then walk back around, get in the truck and drive in. Franklin: How else did security impact your work while you were there? Did they monitor—were they monitoring you, or--? Gabaldon: Well there were places there that there was security all the time. They were, I don’t want to say watching you every second, but they were real close by. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Was that level of security different to you than the other places you had worked out on Site? Gabaldon: It seemed higher, a little bit higher, but not a whole lot. Franklin: You were pretty used to that routine? Gabaldon: Yes. Yeah, just whatever they want, you know? You can’t—you’re not going to bunk the system, you know. Why are you doing that? Don’t ask questions. Or you know, they might tell us, you can’t go in there today. Okay. Find something else to do, because you just weren’t going to go in there until whatever was wrong was cleared. So there was a lot of that. Franklin: How far up—did you end up leading your own crew at one point at Hanford? Or where’d you work your way up your organizational structure? Gabaldon: Well, I don’t know if I worked my way up too far, I mean, as an electrician, a journeyman, and then a foreman. But that’s about as far as I went. Franklin: Did you go to foreman? Gabaldon: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: And that changed—when we had lots of people working, when we had a big project, they’d say, okay, Larry, you’re, you know, going to be a foreman over this. Then we would get down to, I believe, four to six men, so there was only one foreman, so the rest of us were workers. So they would kind of cut us back. Then as soon as we’d get more work where they needed more, we would bring in travelers or temporary-type help, okay, to do bigger jobs. So that’s when— We had a few outages while we were changing out the services in some of the buildings out there in 300 Area. I’m trying to remember the names of the buildings. As you drove in the—what is this south, the G-Way, if you go straight in, is that the south gate? Franklin: Yeah, I think so. Gabaldon: As you go right into the gate, there was a library on the left side? Franklin: Yeah, the technical library. Gabaldon: Okay. And then right across the street, right across the road on the right-hand side, what’s the first big building? Franklin: Oh, I don’t remember. Gabaldon: 324? Or 328, maybe? I can’t remember. But it was a, you know, three or four story building, and a huge electrical service to it. It had been there for years. So we had to literally take all that out and put all new stuff in, and then hook up all the old wiring back to it, and do that in two days. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: So there was a lot of pre-preparing. You had to find every conduit coming into it, identify it, identify what’s in it, where it goes, what it feeds, and label it. And then the new equipment, you know, that’s going to sit on that, you have to have it set up to feed all these things. And then everything got upgraded. Pumps and motors and stuff had to be protected a certain way. So it’d take me a couple months to lead up to that, to prepare for it. And then we’d start on a Friday night, start tearing out the old stuff—and they would shut it down, of course—and Saturday and Sunday. We had to have it running by Monday, so. Franklin: Did you end up working a lot of weekends or varied hours? Gabaldon: More than I wanted, but yeah. A lot of the guys that, oh, they were kind of off-and-on work, they loved the overtime. You know, they were in it to make money. I was there pretty steady, so I would rather have a steady paycheck than a big chunk here and there. So I wasn’t crazy about overtime. But when you’re the foreman, you gotta be there. Franklin: Sure. Did things change for you when the different contractors would come and go? Gabaldon: Yeah, slowly. Nothing real major. I can’t even remember all the contractors, but it started out with, I think, JA Jones. And it went to—oh, gosh, I can’t even think of the names of them. But they must’ve changed names, three or four, five times? Franklin: Yeah Gabaldon: But everything pretty much stayed the same. You know, there’d be a big scare. They’re going to lay you all off and then they’re going to hire you back, or they’re going to lay you off and hire somebody else back. It all worked out. I don’t know. A lot of political stuff, but everything, just basically the names changed. Franklin: But the scope of your work didn’t change. Gabaldon: Yeah, the scope of the work stayed pretty much the same. Franklin: I mean, it doesn’t really make sense to fire everybody and not hire them back when they’re the ones that knew how to do the job in the first place. Gabaldon: Right, right. But on the other hand, through the electrical unions, the hiring procedures were what they were kind of was opposing them. You know, the union says, if you don’t have work, you lay them off. And when you have work, you hire from the top of the list. You can’t—the people that were working and got laid off go to the bottom of the list. So you know, you want to rotate the other people. Franklin: And you’re not allowed to bring in—you can’t hire outside. Gabaldon: Well, they’ve got stipulations where you could hire a foreman, call him out by name, basically. So there was loopholes where they could do that. Franklin: And you were a member of the union? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: What was your take on the union? Did you find it served you well, protected you? Gabaldon: It served me very well and they protect me very well. When there was concerns about contamination, working around the radiation. If we had an issue, we would take it back and the union would fight for us and make sure that we were protected adequately. So, yeah. Tickled to death with them. Franklin: What’s that? Gabaldon: Oh, I’m really glad that I got into the union. Franklin: Oh, good, good. That’s good to hear. Do you have any—is there any interesting or funny/amusing or compelling stories or anecdotes that got to you when you were— Gabaldon: There’s actually quite a few, but I’ll tell you afterward. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay, all right, all right. Understandable. Not camera-worthy, huh? Gabaldon: I’m kidding. Franklin: So you mentioned earlier that you were bilingual. Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: And you said that kind of served you well when you were doing chicken houses, because I guess you would’ve been working with a lot of people of—who probably spoke Spanish— Gabaldon: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --as a primary language. So did you grow up in a bilingual household then? Gabaldon: Yes, yes, I did. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: Actually grew up speaking Spanish until I went to school, I started learning English. Franklin: So you’re Hispanic by— Gabaldon: Hispanic. Franklin: Did you get a chance to use that much out at Hanford? Were there a lot of other— Gabaldon: Very little. Very little out there. No. Like I say, working with the chicken ranch, I used it quite a bit. But out at Hanford, very little. Franklin: Did you find there was any prejudice against you as a Spanish speaker? Gabaldon: No. No, not at all. No. There was—I don’t want to call it prejudice, but more segregation, as far as—not unions, but crafts, I guess. Between the different crafts, and then between construction and maintenance, and supervision, I guess. So there’s—oh, everybody was—hey, that’s my job, no, that’s maintenance, and no, that’s construction. And then you’ve got supervision trying to just get it done, whoever’s—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Whoever needs to do it. Gabaldon: But other, as far as any other, no, there was not an issue at all. Franklin: Oh, well, that’s good. So you eventually retired from Hanford. Gabaldon: Yes, I did. Franklin: And when did you retire? Gabaldon: Well, officially, about two years ago. But I quit work, let’s see, 11 years ago. When was that? Franklin: 2006? Gabaldon: Yup, right about there. 2006. So I just—it got frustrating out there, you know, the kind of work, like I said, in the 300 Area, I was content and I had plenty to do, we could work as much as we wanted. You know, there was nobody telling you slow down, or stop, or don’t do this. We could get something done. There wasn’t the red tape involved. They would say, get this building done and whatever it took within reason. But when I went out there in the further areas, I mean, they were, oh, watching every little move you made. And just seemed like they were just trying to stop you from working. There was more people stopping you from working than people trying to get you to do anything. And it’s just not the way I like to work. So I just basically played their little game. But I was trying to do stuff on the side. I got rental houses that I started putting together, and then I finally got to the point where I thought, okay, I can do this, I can wean myself off of this working. I was skeptical, but I knew I wasn’t going to get rich working out there. I was making a good living and comfortable but I was always answering to somebody. So I basically went to work for myself and had a lot more free time, and didn’t have to answer to anybody. Franklin: Sure, you could work at your own pace. Sounds like the 300 Area was really kind of the place where you found the most— Gabaldon: Oh, satisfaction. Franklin: Satisfaction, in your career. Gabaldon: Now, the 3000 Area, I worked there for probably two years. Franklin: And that’s in— Gabaldon: Where are we? We’re almost in it. Franklin: Yeah, we’re right next to PNNL. Gabaldon: So, it was the old JA Jones fabrication shop. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: They had pipefitters, boilermakers, electricians, fitters, just about a little of everything, carpenters, painters. So they had pretty much everything right there. We were like a two-man crew, maybe three-man crew there. There was a foreman and one other guy and I was an apprentice. Oh, I learned to weld; I learned all kinds of stuff there. But we were making jumpers. They call them jumpers, but they’re a mechanical thing that hooks up to a valve fitting here and it’s got to go up and around all this other junk, and plug into a valve over here. Well, in our case it was electrical fittings. So these big heads had contacts in them. And you’d have to wire them up, run wire through this conduit, and you had to support this conduit so it would stay rigid and stay in that configuration. And it had to be a balanced point, so they’d pick it up with a crane, so it balanced perfectly level. And they could drop it into this thing and it was done remotely. They were made for some kind of radiation-type pits or— Franklin: Yup, yup. We have some of those in our collection. Maybe you made them, I don’t know. Gabaldon: I don’t know; could be. Franklin: Yeah, they would use them in the separations facilities where it was too hot. Gabaldon: Right. Franklin: Where they would operate everything remotely. One of the guys out there told me that every—all the electrical, any of the plumbing, like it all had to go through jumpers, because it would all have to go through this solid wall. Because they really couldn’t service it on the other side or ever go—So, yeah, I did know that they— Gabaldon: So anyway those-- Franklin: --used first— Gabaldon: They’re very interesting. And real complicated. So it was a real challenge to—because the foreman would take a piece of—oh, like a coat hanger—a welding rod and a piece of wire. He would scale it to the scale of the drawings, but he would bend it at a certain angle, and then he’d bend it the other way a certain angle. So here’s this piece of wire that’s got 12 or 14 different angles in it. And the finished product is the wire sticking out here and here, and that’s where these heads went. The heads had a big nut on the back of them and when you’d run that nut in and out, these fingers would come around and grab and then suck it in which would make contact. So if you loosened it, you know. And they had a big, I want to say pneumatic, kind of like an impact wrench that would run that. And that was run remotely, too, with a crane. But they would run that on there and grab onto that nut, and spin it, and this thing would let go and open up and then it would come off. So we would put the female end, or the opposite end, and weld it to a table. And then over here, 20 feet away, we would weld another one so they’re permanently mounted. Now we’ve got to connect those two with all these angles in it and make it work. So when the finished product was, we could pick it up with a crane and hook it up to those. Franklin: And it would be level. It wouldn’t— Gabaldon: Oh, yeah, it had to be level this way, but also the way—we’d have to put counterweights or you know, things to balance it, just to make it hang perfectly level. Franklin: That sounds really complicated. Gabaldon: It was. It was a real challenge. It was fun! It was really fun. Franklin: I bet. I mean, that’s really, yeah, tat’s something that gives you a great sense of accomplishment, getting those in. Gabaldon: Well, we never got to—we got to make them work there in the shop, and we were confident that they were going to work, but we never saw them work in the field. We’d make them, once they were finished and done, they’d ship them out. I don’t know where they’d go. Franklin: Into some places you don’t want to go. Gabaldon: Right, right. Franklin: Well, great, Larry. I just have a couple other—so you moved to Richland in the late ‘70s, pretty—it had not been a government town for a while, but was Richland different from what you were used to? Was there anything unique about Richland when you moved here? Gabaldon: I moved to Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: But, no. It was actually kind of like a little farming town, and where I was was out in the farming community there, Glade North Road in Pasco. So it’s actually halfway to—what’s it called, Eltopia? Franklin: Oh, okay, on the— Gabaldon: About ten miles out of Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you lived there for most of your time? Gabaldon: Well, I lived in town. You know, I lived in Pasco and Kennewick. But working out there for the first year, I was driving out there. Franklin: Oh, yeah, out with chicken coops and stuff. Gabaldon: Yeah. So that, yeah— Franklin: And then you eventually moved to West Richland where you live now? Gabaldon: Yes, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. So I already asked you about secrecy and security. Well, I guess my last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Gabaldon: Wow. [LAUGHTER] What would I want them to know? Franklin: Yeah. Gabaldon: Well, that’s a good question. But now everything seems to be going to cleanup, to how are they going to clean this mess up? [SIGH] Protect yourself, I guess. [LAUGHTER] There’s a lot of stuff out there, unknown stuff. Whatever they did back in the day when there was no restrictions or no—everything was new, and now we’re paying for it. I feel like my lungs aren’t quite like they used to be, and I don’t know if it was—between asbestos and beryllium and radiation, I don’t know. I’m sure it didn’t help any. So. Franklin: Were there ever any larger worries about working at a defense, you know, a plant, an area that produced nuclear weapons material during the Cold War? Were there ever any worries for you about that? Gabaldon: No, not at all. I mean, it’s funny to—I saw a lot of people come and go. People from all over the country would come here to work on a temporary basis. You know, the things—you know how Hanford is. Anyway, so they’d come from all over the place. I saw a lot of worry, a lot of people really concerned about radiation, and then about attacks. About, if whoever, some of the big powers, wanted to retaliate against the United States, that this would be a target. Well, I don’t know, I never did worry about that. But they were always talking about, Hanford 2, the way it was built would withstand an airplane hitting it. You know, I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but I was wondering, who would ever fly an airplane into that? And then sure enough, they did it to the towers. So I guess it’s possible. But other than that, no, no worries. The river, I guess. The one in Grand Coulee, I heard people talking about the possibility of that breaking. If that broke, it would wash away Hanford. I don’t know how true that would be, but I’m sure there’d be a lot of water there. Franklin: Yeah, there sure would. It probably would do a bunch of damage all over the place, everywhere downstream. Gabaldon: Well, it would just compound down the river as it—I think if one dam broke, it would break the rest of them. Franklin: Yeah, sounds like it would be pretty—I don’t know what you would— Gabaldon: But, no, that’s never been a big concern of mine. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s good. Well, Larry, thank you so much for coming— Gabaldon: Oh, you’re welcome. Franklin: --and taking the time to talk with us today about your work. I really appreciate it. Gabaldon: No, no problem. I hope I helped some. I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, no, you did. It was really good. It was good to hear about your perspective on being out in 300 and especially some of that outage work, what it took to get the job done in terms of the PPE and kind of the— Gabaldon: Yeah, it’s—I’m sure they still do it even more. They’re more, what do I want to say? Well, let’s just put it this way. In the 100 areas, when you came out, you were in your skivvies, your underwear. And there’s 20 guys lined up, standing in their underwear, and there’s gals surveying them, every little nook and cranny of their body. Nowadays, they have, I guess modesty clothing or whatever you call it. So it’s come a long way from there. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Gabaldon: You know, back, it was a big deal. But then as soon as you went into a radiation zone, you know, forget all that modesty stuff. Franklin: Right, yeah, you’ve got to take care of yourself. Gabaldon: Yup. Franklin: Modesty be darned. Great, well, Larry, thank you so much. Gabaldon: You’re welcome. Franklin: Watch your head there when you stand up. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:07:17 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9983KBPS Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100-N (N Reactor) FFTF 305 Building 308 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 40 years Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 29 years Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Gabaldon Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Larry Gabaldon moved to Washington in 1977 to work at the Hanford Site. Larry spent time in the 300 Area as an electrician, and also assisted at 100-N (N Reactor), Tank Farms, and the FFTF. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/11/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F01ac8b83614b46910a6d77d2a0a53eb9.jpg 176b179b4d82cc90ff3133f3081c1498 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6115b66c2e17d8782e7fb1f37031877e.mp4 7bc78b004a7a07f6e008322ea9b0642e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sloppy, LaVerne Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sloppy_LaVerne Camera man: Whenever you are ready. Robert Bauman: All right. Okay, looks like we're ready to start. LaVerne Sloppy: Okay. Bauman: So if we could start by just having you say your name and then spell it for us. Sloppy: LaVerne Sloppy--known by Verne. [LAUGHTER] L-A-capital V-E-R-N-E L. Sloppy--just like it sounds. Bauman: Okay. All right, my name is Bob Bauman, and today's date is November 18, 2013. And we're this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell us a little bit about your family when they originally came to this area, where they came from, and that sort of thing. Sloppy: Okay. My mother came to this area in 1909 at the age of four--Nebraska. Bauman: And do you know why your family came out here? Sloppy: Well, my grandfather went to work for the irrigation district. And he later ran the irrigation district. So she moved here with her family. Bauman: Okay, and what was his name? Sloppy: Gus Long. Augustus Long. Bauman: And then how about your father's family? Sloppy: My father's family came to Washington State much earlier, but they didn't really live in Washington at that time. In fact, my dad was born in Prosser. And he came--and may have lived briefly here when my mother was in the eighth grade ‘cause they--my parents went to eighth grade at the same time. Bauman: Okay, and then when did he move here sort of permanently here? Sloppy: He was working for Grosscup Ranch. And then they started going together, I think. And they was married here. That would have been in the late '20s, I guess because they was married in 1930. Bauman: And then, so were you born in Richland then? Sloppy: I was born in Kennewick. Bauman: In Kennewick. Sloppy: They were living in the county outside of Richland I guess at that time. Bauman: And so did your family have a farm? Sloppy: They were, I guess, leasing different things. There were a couple spots in here, and then they moved up east of Corfu in the mid-'30s sometime. And then they came back probably 1938 from up there. Bauman: Okay. And when they came back in '38, where did they live? Sloppy: They lived two--I guess it would be west Richland area when they first moved back, and we moved just to side of the Yakima River off where Van Giesen is today. And then we moved to--still in Richland, but it was the south of the Yakima--it would be south Richland now, in there, I guess. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sloppy: And then they moved off Van Giesen. The house and barn are still there off Van Giesen as you go towards west Richland, you cross a railroad. There's a concrete block house that's got a business in there now. That was the last place we lived in Richland. Bauman: Oh, really? Sloppy: For a while. And yeah, the barn and the house are still there. There's something of a business in the house right now. And the barn is still there, too. Bauman: So on these different places you lived, were these farms for most part? Sloppy: Yeah, they were all farms. Bauman: Mm-hm. And what sort of what's of crops did you grow on those farms? Sloppy: Dad had dairy cows and, of course, alfalfa and then potatoes, starting an asparagus place there on that last place I mentioned. He was actually buying that house. It belonged to the bank and him when they took those places over. Bauman: Oh, okay. And this was the one on Van Giesen? Sloppy: Yeah. Bauman: So you were born in what year? Sloppy: 1932. Bauman: '32? Sloppy: Barely. Bauman: Barely? [LAUGHTER] Sloppy: It was almost '33. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sloppy: I do have one brother. My oldest brother, who is younger than I am, was born in Richland in '34. Bauman: So what do you remember growing up in this area? What was the area like at the time? Sloppy: Well, it was all mostly farms, and of course, the small town of Richland. And my mother, she had mentioned, after high school worked at the--for John Dam in the store that he had until my parents married. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember in this small town of Richland when you were growing up, do you remember any of the specific businesses, the John Dam store, but anything else that you remember? Sloppy: George Gress's butcher shop. Frozen--that's where all the meat was frozen and stuff. And of course we didn't have any electricity on the farms at that time. Bauman: Did you ever get electricity before '43? Sloppy: Not before we moved, because we moved to Kennewick--or to the Finley area, actually after we left here. Bauman: How about a telephone? Sloppy: Not when we was living in Richland. Bauman: When you were growing up on these farms, did you have certain chores or jobs? Sloppy: Oh, yeah. Bauman: What sorts of things did you do? Were you supposed to do? Sloppy: Well, I started out milking one cow when I was about, oh, I guess it was six or seven. And I turned a hammer—the separator for the cream, separating the milk and the cream. And being one of the older ones of some of the chores in the house. And I was carrying water for my mother to wash clothes. Because we didn't have house—water in the house. It was an outside pump, like that--pump the water and carry it for doing the washing and stuff and the house water and stuff. And things like that and all kinds of chores around the farm. He had cows and pigs and chickens. My mother took care of chickens. Bauman: What about school? Where did you attend school? Sloppy: I actually started what should have been my kindergarten year. But I started first grade here on that place east of Othello up there. And then I went through Richland Elementary School until the fifth grade, and that's when we moved to Finley. I attended the Kennewick schools then. Bauman: Okay. And how did you get to school? Did you walk? Did you take a bus? Sloppy: We took buses. They had school buses. It was too far to walk, most of us farmers. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you have any particular memories about your time at school in Richland? Any teachers or any events that you remember? Sloppy: Not really. I can't remember much. My older sister might remember some of them. But I don't remember. I think it was a Mrs. Bell at one time. That probably had been the first grade because my parents put me back with my peers. Because I actually started first grade up there in a little bitty school that they had out there. Then we had four students in the whole thing, and two of them belonged to the school teacher, and the other one was my older sister. So my parents, I didn't really learn anything in kindergarten. And so they put me back with the students which was real my age--the first grade. And I stayed with them. Bauman: What sorts of things do you remember doing for fun when you were growing up? Sloppy: Well, mostly around the farm and we done a lot of playing outside and stuff--my younger brothers. It was mostly chores. It wasn't a lot of fun things and playing with neighbors’ kids because it was a distance away. Though some of my cousins were fairly close, and my grandfather was living very close. And I remember a lot of things about him and my mother's family here, but I had been told—not that I remember it. Because my grandmother died '33, and my grandfather raised--at the time of her death, it was eight, but one of my uncles died shortly after my grandmother did, and he raised as a single parent, and it was seven children—five girls and two boys, all of which had died in their 80s. And he was actually the one that turned the irrigation water off for the Richland Irrigation District at the time that they took all these places. He retired, but he ran the irrigation district for years as well as farmed. Bauman: So you mean, in 1943 when they turned-- Sloppy: Yeah. He had retired then. He probably retired very late, '39, '40. Bauman: And how long did he work for irrigation district, do you know? Sloppy: 1909 until then. Bauman: Okay, right. That's a long time. Sloppy: Yeah. And also my great-grandmother and grandfather Long were here before him, but they left here and went to western Washington after that. One of my--his younger brother was I think the first graduate in the class from Richland High. It was a book put out here some years ago, I no longer have a copy of it, that has listing him as one of the graduating class. Bauman: Did your mother ever talk about what the area was like when she was growing up? Did she ever have stories to tell? Sloppy: Mainly about her father and her mother and that sort of thing. She always thought that Long Avenue was named after my grandfather. I never saw it in writing or anything, but that was her opinion. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or activities, special occasion things in the area? Sloppy: Grange was quite big then, and they all belonged to the grange and stuff, and was active in that. Social things were more like that, and then even to just to go to town was a big event for the kids. [LAUGHTER] Of course there wasn't all of the whole family at one time. It was usually my father and maybe one or two of the kids. I remember going to George Gress's. He always would give us sausage. He'd hang one of those sausages around the kid's neck and stuff. Bauman: How about churches? Churches in the area? Were there-- Sloppy: They wasn’'t real big in church. They were real moral people. I remember at my grandfather's funeral the minister that gave it said he had known him for something like 40 years and never seen him inside his church or any other church. But he never smoked, drank, or cussed or--was an extremely honest, moral person. However, they did practice it, I mean by their moral standards and stuff. Bauman: So, 1943, when the federal government decides to build the Hanford site, how did your family find out? What memories do you have of that time? Sloppy: Well, I'm not sure. I guess they came to the different locations, which my grandfather was on the shore water property lines also. I told them--but I would have been--in '43, let’s see--4th, 5th grade. I don't remember them coming to the house in particular or anything. Bauman: Did you remember how you found out? Did your parents tell you? Sloppy: My parents told me. Bauman: And do you remember what you thought at the time? Or did your parents have anything--what they said about it? Sloppy: Well, they were just getting started in buying the place, and I'm not sure they were upset about it. But as I remember, the bank owned the majority of the properties, and they were in the process of buying it. I think my parents, if I remember correctly, probably got $1,000 with that--got everything else. My grandfather actually sued the government along with some other people and got slightly more. But he owned his place outright, of course. But how he got told--probably them contacting him to find out where the property lines was and everything. And I had one aunt that had a place too, which no longer exists. It was off Van Giesen too. Bauman: Do you remember how long you were--when you actually moved off your place? Sloppy: It was in '43, I'm sure because my youngest brother was born in '42, and he was a baby. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you have any idea, like, how long you were there after you found out that you had to move? Sloppy: It was a matter of months, but I can't-- Bauman: Right. You mentioned earlier that this is mostly farms and so forth. Who were your closest neighbors in that last place? Sloppy: Well, let's see. It was a man—by the name of, I guess his last name was Townsend--had a gas station closer to the Yakima there. And then my aunt and uncle—it was kind of kitty-corner place. Their name was Johnson. But the closest ones—I am trying to remember the name, of course, would now be Van Giesen from that house. I can't remember his name. He was a bachelor. I think it was Thornton, but I can't be--I'm not sure on that name. Bauman: Mm. And going back to the property you lived on, what sort of irrigation system did they have? How did that work? Sloppy: It was quite similar to what the Kennewick and Columbia Irrigation Districts are. It was an irrigation ditch, and they piped to the irrigation ditches into it--to the different farms. Bauman: Are there any memories from your years growing up in Richland really stand out to you, or you remember well, or have a special place in your memory? Sloppy: I’m trying to think of something, I can't think of anything off hand. Bauman: Mm-hm. Did you do a lot of fishing and hunting or that sort of thing? Sloppy: Well, I can remember my dad [LAUGHTER] doing some bird hunting and stuff. I can remember killing pheasants in a hay field with a pitchfork, too, out of season. [LAUGHTER] At that place. And we did fish. And, actually, at that place, at that time, when the irrigation system went in, and there were a couple of lakes west of the house that ways. And I'd fish in them. And we did fish in them then. It was out in the pasture and in there--the bullhead and stuff like that. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about occasionally going into the town of Richland. Did you ever go to any of the other neighboring towns, White Bluffs, Hanford, Pasco, Kennewick, any of those? Sloppy: No, the only thing I can remember about White Bluffs and Hanford is that my dad when he moved from that place east of Corfu. It's called Corfu by the way--he crossed cows at the ferry there probably on horseback. He brought his cows down from there to wherever we lived in Richland at the time. That book listed a schoolteacher at, I guess it was White Bluffs or a Hanford High School, or a school there as Edith Long, which was my mother's name. But it wasn't my mother. [LAUGHTER] She was not a school teacher. I am trying to remember the name of that book, but it was— Woman, off-screen: Probably "Tales of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland" by Martha Berry Parker. Sloppy: By whom? Woman: Martha Berry Parker? Sloppy: Yes, that was probably it. But it did show a woman of that name, and I don't think it was probably two women. So I think that was probably a mistake. To be named Edith M. Long. ‘Cause mom had graduated from Richland High, of course, along with most of her siblings. Bauman: Were there a lot of sports activities with the schools around here? Sloppy: No, they had athletic teams and stuff, which some of my aunts were on the teams. They are mentioned in that book also. As is Uncle Jay, my mother's Uncle Jay, was the one I told you graduated from high school. I don't have my copy anymore. I gave it to one of my brothers, and I never got it back. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So if someone was to ask you what the community of Richland was like, what this area was like in the 1930s and early 1940s, what would you tell them? Sloppy: This was just a small farming community. They all shopped at John Dam and Vick Nielson's--his partner, by the way, store. Most of them had running tabs there and storing their meat that they had butchered and George Gress's freezing place--or his meat store. I think his building is still there. It used to be a tavern and stuff in there or something. And I don't know if any of my other relatives—their other farms remain. He tried to point them out with me, but they are difficult now today. Bauman: And so then after 1943, where did your family go then? Sloppy: My parents moved in to the Finley area, which with all the mail stuff we did with the Kennewick routes, rural routes. That's still known as Sloppy's Corner out there in Finley, informally. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And so did you sorta then spend the rest of your youth there in that area? Sloppy: Until I was in junior high. And then we moved to what was called the Richland Y. The address was Kennewick, but it's now in the city limits of Richland. The house that my mother and father had there is still there. My sister actually lives there and a brother. At that time it was a Kennewick address, and now it's a Richland address. Bauman: And so then after that, where did you go? Sloppy: Well, I went into the--was drafted into the Army, and my parents and younger siblings were there and my older sister some. And then when I got out of the Army the first time, I came back there, and I lived there for a couple years also. Until I went back into the Army. I worked for General Electric for a couple of years. And I got hit by a reduction in force type thing. And my last day was a Friday in November of '57. I don't know the exact date. Tuesday I went down and reenlisted in the Army. [LAUGHTER] It was wintertime, and construction work was scarce, and I was young and single. So I left Finley then. Bauman: So this was in the 1950s, you said? Sloppy: That would have been 1957, November of '57. Bauman: November of '57. Sloppy: I went back in the Army. Bauman: And so what sort of work was it at Hanford, construction? Sloppy: No, it was for General Electric. I think it was 100H I worked at, from late '54, early '55 to '57. Bauman: And what sort of work at 100H, was it? Sloppy: It was labor truck driving, I think, for General Electric. Bauman: And how was that experience? What did you think of working at Hanford? Sloppy: It was a good job for me at the time being single, like I said, living at home. Bauman: And then you said you went back into the Army. Sloppy: Yes. Bauman: And at some point came back here? Sloppy: Well, I didn't actually--I came back to Kennewick, but that wasn’t ‘til 1986. [LAUGHTER] Because I spent 30 years in the Army. Bauman: Is there anything about your time growing up in this area that you haven't talked about yet or you think would be important to share or important for the people to know about? Sloppy: Well, no, like I said, I attended Kennewick schools, even though the addresses at that time was a Kennewick address, even though it's currently a Richland address. No, it was a normal growing up with a bunch of brothers and sisters, only two sisters, but a bunch of brothers. And it was a typical [INAUDIBLE] for them. Bauman: I just want to go back to 1943. Did your parents ever talk about having to give up their land afterwards, later? Sloppy: They naturally had some heartburn, and I don't think anybody that lived during that time, if they were adults anyway, ever voted Democrat again--boy that--since Roosevelt was the one that did it. And they probably felt that even though in my case, it would have been maybe the bank giving your land back, especially since they never did anything with that land. Now my grandpa's is probably all residential or even business because that would have been probably closer to where the hospital is now in that area. So that was all used for something. But my father's and the bank's area wasn't. My uncle's and aunt's area is still all weeds and things back against the sand hill there where the irrigation ditch ran down, where the irrigation ran down. One of my cousin's--or a couple of my cousins was here a couple of years ago, and I was able to take him real close to where it was, but there's no houses or anything. There's one house back in there now. It’d be off to the right. And most people felt that way about it. Like I say, my grandfather sued them. And it don't take a long if there’s a lawsuit. But it did get them a little bit more for the land area. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories and stories. I appreciate it. Sloppy: Well, now, I don't know how much this helps you, but-- Bauman: It’s great. All right. Thanks very much. Sloppy: You wouldn't know where I'd get a copy of that book, do you? [LAUGHTER] Woman off-screen: You know, it's really hard to find. I've seen it at used books. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:33:40 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 200 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1932-2014 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Long, Augustus Gress, George Parker, Martha Berry Ling, Edith M. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with LaVerne Sloppy Description An account of the resource An interview with LaVerne Sloppy conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-28: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools General Electric Housing Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8281eeea60bc11443576c297c088680a.jpg cc17aca4ceedb233f5ec5376253ee16c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1a4fe936fb05b5f5d96e8988d8fc182a.mp4 034eb209cfdf1e2030c91dc16e22815f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leatris Reid Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Northwest Public Television | Reid_Leatris </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: My name is Leatris Faye Boehmer Reid. B-O-E-H-M-E-R. It's pronounced "bay--" "bay-mer." And I was born in North Dakota in 1930. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Just before we get started on that, I just need to get the date on here, make sure we have everything. And so we're recording this on August 27, 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay, August 27. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And we're recording it in your home in Walla Walla. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Yeah, let's have you talk about your family and how your family came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: First? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I came here in June to White Bluffs, Washington in 1935 or '36. I'm pretty sure it was '36 because I had my sixth birthday there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you said you were born in North Dakota and moved to White Bluffs in 1936. Why did your family leave North Dakota and head to White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, we had a terrible Depression, as you know. And I was a Depression baby, and we just simply weren't—there was no work, there was no money. We just simply had to get out of there. We lost a little boy at two and a half with what they call membranous croup at the time. But it was actually, what it was was that awful--oh, kids have it. It's asthma, terrible asthma. And he just couldn't make it. And I think it just broke my mother's heart. She had just lost a baby. So then I became the baby. But I think I was almost six, so--She had written all over Washington, Oregon, because she knew that there was fruit there. And there was food, and the temperature was reasonable. And so she wrote all the little towns that she could find in Washington and Oregon to find out what they did there, what they grew, and what the chances were of people surviving. And she got one for Mr. Reierson that owned the grocery store in White Bluffs, and one from the man who had the bank. And I can't remember his name. But she got glowing letters about the fruit. She got glowing things about that there was work. There was packing sheds, there were alfalfa fields to take care of. And there certainly were. They didn't stint on it and it was not exaggerated. So that's how we came to be there, and find it we did. It was exactly like they described it. It was probably the best thing that ever happened to us, because we would have starved. We had no money even to pay for that little boy's doctor bill that we left. So then I was the littlest one, and we had six left. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so talk a little bit about your parents and your siblings, what your parents' names and your siblings' names-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, my oldest sister--who I dearly love and still is alive and I'm glad--is 10 years older than me. And her name is Dorothy Lorraine Boehmer-- "bay-mer"--Foyer. And she lives in Everett, Washington, and she will also probably make a statement to you. But she's my oldest. And then I had a sister LaVonne. I had a sister named Helen and a brother named Virgil, all of them the same name, Boehmer. And I had a little brother. I had a sister named Darlene also. And she didn't live at White Bluffs. She stayed with my great-aunt and uncle in Minnesota because they had no children and they wanted to educate her. She was very smart. And she had been treated badly at school in North Dakota, and she didn't want to go back. And they were visiting us. So my mother said, well, you could have her for a year. And of course she--they became so attached to her. And she loved them dearly, and they were good to her. And they did visit us at White Bluffs. And they liked White Bluffs when they came. But it was the best thing that ever happened to us to move to White Bluffs. They had work in packing sheds, like I say. They had--the kids were very receptive to us. And everybody there just opened their arms. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I wonder if you could describe the place you lived in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, we lived at Lulubelle Johnson's house, and we were buying it from her. But we never realized any money out of when it sold to the government. But Lulubelle Johnson had a son named Ford Johnson because Lulubelle Johnson was a niece of Henry Ford, made the automobiles. And we stayed there at that house and it was just—it was wonderful. We had good neighbors, fruit orchards all over. All over. When they said that you will find all the fruit you want, they really meant it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so what sort of fruit was on the farm you grew up on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, we had--we grew alfalfa. If you didn't grow alfalfa, you grew fruit. But we had a good well on our land, and alfalfa was a good-paying crop. And of course, we had a cow. And if we had too much alfalfa, we could sell it. So it wasn't something that went bad. And the fruit--every kind of fruit. First time I ever tasted cherries or even seen a cherry tree was there. Or ever ate an apricot or seen an apricot. Or even apples--we had apples there—wonderful. And the whole valley was full of that. It wasn't just one little orchard, it was lots of orchards. It was covered with orchards and alfalfa fields. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Did you have electricity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We did! First time we had electricity. We had electricity shortly before we moved from North Dakota because I remember my mother had a Maytag washing machine that she had just bought and paid $2 a month for. [LAUGHTER] So we had that all packed up and ready to go and our tickets--the government gave us tickets to get out of a depressed area. And we took the Empire Builder--brand new--to Spokane, and came into White Bluffs on a fruit train with our little parcel of stuff. And they welcomed us with open arms. And they were [AUDIO OUT] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you mentioned that there was a well. Is that--how were your crops irrigated with it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, well, we had sprinkler systems. They weren't like they are now. But what we had, you dug the ditch across the field. And then you made little rows out of that on both sides. And you would run it from the well pipe into that big main ditch. And then you would take the little ditches and close them up. When you've got enough irrigation water, you'd close them back up. And that's what we did. That's how we did it. And that's how they water the orchards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And how about running water? Did you have-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We didn't have running water in the house. We went out and got it by the bucketful off of the well. There was a little faucet and you could either pull it up with a bucket or you could turn the faucet on. There was a pump. [LAUGHTER] It's the same one you watered the yard with. But it was grand to have all the fresh water you needed because we paid $0.25 a barrel in North Dakota for drinking water because it was a rancid and acrid. $0.25 then was a lot of money. We washed clothes with it. My mother would take it after she washed clothes and scrub her floors. And they were white from the lye in the soap. And then she would put it on her garden. But we never had bugs on the garden. [LAUGHTER]. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So I was gonna ask you--who were some of your neighbors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Let me see, Beldins. Beldins were one of our neighbors. Summers were some of our neighbors. And I can't even remember what--his kid's name was--oh, I can't say his name. He kind of talked with a nasal. And my dad called him Snazzy Summers. [LAUGHTER] I don't know where that came from. But anyways, he was--he had a crush on my sister Helen. And Helen didn't like him. Of course, she was only about 12 or 13. I don't think she had boys in mind. She was kind of a tomboy, too. They were some of our neighbors. And we lived-- the Abercrombie place was north of us. And down below us was an abandoned place. And they must have made wine of some kind, because they grew grapes and the grapes were still there. They grew right down to the water. We would go down and get these great big, beautiful Tokay red grapes. And they were right there by the river so they had enough water. But then the whole farm was completely abandoned, probably because of the Depression. I really don't know. But they were the neighboring ones. And the Grewells lived up above us. Helen and Gerald Grewell was their name. And Helen Grewell was my sister Helen's very favorite girl. They’d run around all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And how about you? Who were some of your best friends-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Patsy Borden was my best friend for a while. She was probably my best friend, yes. And she was the granddaughter of the Saths, who were related to the Wiehls who run the ferry. And Ida Mae probably was another little friend. She was a nice little girl. I liked them all. We actually--there wasn't a whole lot of--kids had to go home and go do things. It wasn't--I remember the Kilian children because they were German. And they came there, I want to say about '37, '38. Hitler was already busy in Germany. And they came home. And they Mrs. Supple used to raise sheep. Her and husband--they were German also, very, very German. Nice people, but she thought Hitler was doing such great things over there for the German people. And so Mr. Kilian went over and had a long talk with her and said, you know, you are putting yourself in a dangerous position, because this is not going well in Germany. He might be doing things for the German people, but he has things in mind for the world. And I thought, how kind. How provocative and kind that was. It wasn't necessary for him to do that. He really didn't know them. But he had heard things. And in a little community, things like that get around. It isn't gossip, it's just fear. But I thought that was very kind. I was only about 7, 8 years old. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about-- did you have certain chores or responsibilities-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Always. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --that you had to do on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Everybody did. Everybody did. Mine was feeding the chickens and gathering the eggs. And we had a little hen named Grandma that mother picked out of the shell, and Billy Rooster, who I guess was named after me. He turned out beautiful. But little Grandma Hen was sterile, so she must have been too weak. But she kept her in the warming oven for an extra couple hours, and she picked her out of the shell. She was sterile. And she would run around stealing everybody else's chicks. She would have a couple of Rhode Island Reds, and she would have a couple of little Leghorns, and maybe a little Barred Rock or two. And she'd huddle them up and boy, she'd fight them off--she's going to keep these kids. Well, Mrs. Sath was such a sweetheart. They lived in the--next to us. And she brought my mother some duck eggs-- white Peking duck eggs. And she said, why don't you just set her. She's dying to and she doesn't know--she'd fight them off. And so they set about 10 eggs under her because duck eggs are pretty good sized. And she hatched out every one, and she was so proud of them. Oh, boy, she'd just stomp around that farmyard like she really knew what she was doing. And she just took them down to the horse trough one time. And they found the horse trough, and they jumped in. And she just went berserk--"come back, come back." And so it got to be a morning thing. Every morning she'd take them to the horse trough because they had to have their swim. But she raised them. [LAUGHTER] Those things were fun things. We didn't have TV. We had a little, tiny radio that we could listen to for the news. But it wasn't a thing you had on all day. But Billy Rooster used to hear the music and he would try to keep up with it. And my sister Dorothy would always do the lunch dishes. She'd say, Billy Rooster, are you out there singing to this music? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: It was very wholesome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. What other sorts of things did you do for fun? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: The river. Oh, the river. The river was a godsend. We learned to swim the first year, the first summer we were there. And we had a raft. The dads had got together and built this big raft. And if you could swim out to the raft—I was not supposed to, but I did. And the little Lowe boy wasn't supposed to, either. He was just learning to swim. And he went under. And my sister Dorothy was a really good swimmer. And he went under for the third time. And she went down and got him, got him out on that--pulled him up. And there was a couple of guys up there pulled him up on that raft and they turned them over on his stomach. And the water just poured. And he lived. But he wouldn't have lived. And every one of those kids at White Bluffs were just as devoted as that to the river. That was our playground. We had to do our work in the morning because it was cool enough. And the summers over there were--boy, they were hot. But we could go in and get in the swimming pool then, our swimming pool. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You mentioned a little bit ago having a radio. Did you have a telephone also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We finally did have a telephone. And it was only a dollar a month. That was right uptown. We'd never had one of those before. It was a party line, so if there was an emergency, you had to give up the line. If there was an emergency--if you didn't, they would take your telephone out and you'd never get a telephone again. So that was good and responsible. And I think Mrs. Westling was the telephone--she had it in her home. She and her daughter, I believe, operated it, I'm pretty sure. They lived up by the bank, I remember that. But I can't tell you--we didn't have names on the streets that I know of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so did you get your news mostly on the radio? Was there a newspaper also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: There was. There was a little newspaper there. And I believe it was for Hanford and White Bluffs. And my brother actually worked for that newspaperman. First you start out just because he thought it would be fun. Phil asked him, he said, would you like to know something about publishing a newspaper? And so Dutch went and worked for him. That's what we called him--we didn't call him Virgil. And he went and worked for him. And they did publish a little newspaper. It was a weekly, just once a week. And, of course, they had all the Ladies Aid tea parties, things like that, things at the church. Everything was in there. Yeah, a little gossipy paper. It wasn't malicious. It was just who had a luncheon at their place or whatever. And so, when he got older and came out of the Army, he went and took formal newspapering, went to college and took it. And he became a newspaperman. Boise Statesman was one of them. And he went down to California. And he worked down there for a while, about 10 years there. So that was good for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: He got started in-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Yeah, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: What businesses do you remember being in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, I remember Reierson's Grocery. And I remember around the back of it was a little creamery where you could--in fact, they picked up a can of cream at our back porch every morning, because we had, by then, two cows. And one was a Guernsey and one was a Jersey, and they both had lots of cream. So we couldn't use all the cream, even for six kids. [LAUGHTER] So they would come and pick that up. And my sister, Helen, always did the ironing. She liked to iron. That was her job. And so he would come, and here she'd be on that back porch, early in the morning, starting the ironing. [LAUGHTER] And he says, I don't think you've gone to bed. He was a kidder. But that was what she did, and she was excellent at it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So there was Reierson's and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: And the creamery. And there was a little garage back there, and I can't remember the name of it because we didn't have a car. But there was a little garage back there. And there was Pop English's drugstore. Everybody knew where that was. Pop English and his wife had no children. But they owned this little drugstore. And they made the best ice cream in the world, and he sold it there. And you could have an ice cream cone for a nickel. I mean it was an ice cream cone. And a dime was a double dipper, and it had two shelves and then one cone—it went down to one cone. And that was a dime. And it was hard, if you had a dime, to decide whether you wanted to do that or not. I remember my mother used to give us two pennies for Jesus to take to Sunday school. And I always put one in. I figured Jesus wouldn't care if I have a rope licorice from Pop English's. And years later, I told her, I said, Mama, if I would have known that Jesus didn't want my money like I do now--he wants our love, has nothing to do with my two cents--I would have brought you home one. She says, your Sunday school dress was the messiest thing ever. She says it was always was covered in black. And, she says, the rest of the girls I could just press the back of that little white dress with some water and make it good for next Sunday. And she says, they could wear a Sunday school dress for all month [AUDIO OUT] but you. But she says, I never knew that. And I said, well, I says, if I would've known better, which I know now, you'd have had one, too. [LAUGHTER] By then I was about 47 years old. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, talking about the school in White Bluffs, how large was it, how many students do you think there were, and maybe the teachers that you remember particularly-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I would say that, in my first and second grade class, there was 18 that I can name off, that I can remember. We had a little boy come there named Carter House. And I think his father was something to do with engineering. Allard, Sam Allard kept the irrigation system and the electric thing, and I think Mr. House had something to do with it. But we had never seen a child look like this before. He looked like he stepped out of a catalog. He had this blonde-- beautiful boy-- had this little blonde hair all cut so nice. And he wore little argyle knee socks and little suit pants and a little white shirt and little slaps on his shoes. And I thought, my gosh, that's the cutest little boy I've ever seen. And, of course, he didn't know how to share. And one day I was swinging on the swing, and Alice Moody looked out the window. And here was this little boy grabbing that swing and taking it away from me. And she says, we don't do that here. She says, you have to wait your turn. She says, when Leatris is done with it, she says, you can have it. It'll be your turn. [LAUGHTER] But they were probably nice people, it's just that they weren't White Bluffs-oriented. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so you want to talk about Alice Moody a little bit? She was your first-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Ah, she was a wonderful teacher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --grade teacher, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Wonderful lady. She taught first, second, and, I believe, possibly third. And there was probably, I would suppose, 18 in the first grade, and probably close to that in second. And then there was the third grade. And we had—we did not have separate rooms, but we had little partitions that she would put up so that we would keep our attention. And we did have monitors. Everybody helped everybody. If there was a little boy that needed help with numbers and somebody was good with it, she would assign them to help that child. It wasn't--it was probably the most together community. If something was unfair on the playground, it was put a stop to right away, sometimes by the children. And teachers, if they were in their room, they kept a window open in good weather because if there was anything wrong in the playground, it was either reported or taken care of. And I can't remember fights on school. I can't remember that, ever. It would never have been tolerated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: How did you get to school, did you walk-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --or did you ride the bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Everybody walked. The only children I remember that came in on a bus--oh, what was his name—Mr. Fisher's school bus. Mr. Fisher, I believe. And he came in on a little bus--with a little bus. And I think they were probably from out toward Saddle Mountain and farms like that because they had to go to school. But I do remember a little bus. And I don't even remember that it was painted yellow or anything. I think it kind of reminded me of maybe a van. But it had windows in it and it was kind of squared. It seems like it was dark gray. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And so far was the school from your home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, I, let me see. We had to pass Saths’ orchard, the whole length of their orchard, and then Beldins’. And then we had to walk across the front of Beldins’ and their [AUDIO OUT] was pretty good sized. And then we had to walk up past Summers' up the hill to our house. So I would suppose it was probably a mile. And some of them walked a lot more than that. And Mrs. Moody used to bring kids in with her when she came to school because she drove to school. And she was around the Reach, around the--it was last reactor. And Old Town used to be there. The whole town used to be on the river at one time. But they moved it away because I think they were progressing. People were moving in, spreading out. Orchards were filling in. And I think that's why they probably moved the town. But we had a movie theater. We had a movie theater. And somebody from the Tri-Cities came over with a movie. In the summertime, we had a movie once a week, probably in the evening early, about seven. And then, in the wintertime, it was kind of hit and miss whenever they could get over or whatever, I don't know. I can't remember. But we did have movies there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Do you remember any movies that you saw over there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: No, I wouldn't remember that. I probably wouldn't even have understood it. But it wasn't anything that was offensive because they didn't do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Where was the movie theater in relationship to some of the other businesses-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay, across the street from Reierson's Grocery, and also across the cross street where the railroad came to fill the cars, that was right across the street from Reierson's Grocery as you come in to White Bluffs. Then there was a main drag. And there was a railroad hotel there, because they had railroad workers that, when they went out to do things to the railroad--the rails out there--they had to have people. And then they also rented to other people if they came in and there was a room empty. And it was right across the street from Reierson's Grocery from this one that's burned off. And behind there was a building. And that's where they had the movie theater. And it was just an old building, I don't know. It had seats in it--not wonderful, but seats. And then they had a balcony on it, too, so that was good. Kids would go up there and of course, you know. One time we had some holy rollers in there that rented it. [LAUGHTER] And they were rolling around on the floor. And my brother and his buddies were up there taking toilet paper, throwing rolls down there. They were all in little--I don't know, rolling around. [LAUGHTER] The Spirit moved them, I guess. Boy, they got in trouble for that. [LAUGHTER] But it was used for a lot of things. If they had a community meeting or something, they'd either use it, the high school or that little building, depending on what it was about. Sometimes it was a farm meeting, or a new spray that was coming out, or what they should do and shouldn't do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. I was going to ask you about any community events that you remember, either picnics, or Fourth of July things, or boat races-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Boat races we had right there. They did not start in Tri-Cities. They started at White Bluffs. It was wonderful. Mr. Kilian used to slice his big watermelons and sell them for $0.05. [LAUGHTER] Pop English used to sell his ice cream cones. Oh, and the Ladies Aid always had something going--cookies or something or a bake sale. And it was just a fun time. And we had a band. We used to gather up a band and have music there. It was pretty good. And in the spring, we always had a little May Day thing. And we had a maypole. And they would twine the strings around it like they do. And we had a program--quite a program--at the high school. And we had one that we were in that was the doll dance. And Alice Beyers was supposed to be the French lady who had the dolls. And so we had these cute little dresses on, little ballerina-type dresses. And she would come around and wind us up. That was the first start of it, and we danced to the tune, the doll dance. [AUDIO OUT] old, old, tune. And each one of us she wound up. And we started dancing. And we would dance around this maypole. And that was part of the program. And we had--oh, I remember my sister had a reading. "I want to live in the house by the side of the road, and be a friend of man," is the way it goes. And each stanza ends with that. And every single--my mother tutored her, her teacher tutored her--and at the end of every one of those stanzas when she got up there, "I want to live in the house by the side of the road and be friendly with men." It brought down the house, of course. Oh, my mother was so embarrassed. She was so embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] So when she-later in life--when she had a beautiful garden and a family of her own, I found that on a plaque that you put out in your garden, an open book with this on it in a plaque form. And it said, "I want to live in the house by the side of the road and be a friend to man." [LAUGHTER] I said, this is for old memories, Helen, and she laughed. She had a good laugh out of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier your Sunday school dress. What church did you go to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, I think at that--first, we went to the Presbyterian, but then they closed that. But then we went to the little Lutheran church I think was up in back of the bank. And we went there for a while. But my dress was always a mess. I come home with licorice all over it because, of course, I had to stop and take one of those pennies, buy a licorice at Pop English's drugstore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Do you remember any other churches in the community? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I do not. I don't remember that there was Catholic church there. I don't remember that there was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I wonder—I know that the Wanapum people were in the area. I wonder if you have any memories of the Wanapum Indians, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, yes. We had--I don't know that they--they were Johnny Buck's Indian tribe. My brother knew Frank Buck. He had two wives. One was old and had white hair, and her name was Deloria. And I don't remember the other one. But they were fine people. They came in and they would gather fruit off the ground because it was ready to dry. They would catch fish out of that river and smoke it and just grab your nose and want you to go down there and have some. And they were just fine people. They came in usually before cherries--you would see them before cherries--and then you would see them every day out in the orchards. And nobody ever charged anybody for that. They could have all they wanted. And my mother actually learned to dry fruit. And oh, that smelled good, just waft up and grab you by the nose. And they put it in little, thin sheets like cheesecloth. They'd make a rack with willows--make a rack, weave it, and put it between maybe stumps of willows, little tiny seedling willows that were coming up. And they would make these racks. And they would put this cheesecloth over it to keep the flies away. And they would dry it. And they would dry fruit all summer long--peaches, cherries, apricot, apples, everything. And they taught my mother that if you soak them just a few minutes in saltwater, they will not turn brown. And they won't salt the fruit. And so she learned how to do that. And the fish—oh! When they smoked that fish, you wanted to go down there and just have some. It just smelled delicious. They had a mixture they mixed up to put on it so it wouldn't dry it out. And they would take the whole bone out of it. They'd slice it. They take the scale off, the skin off, and the ribs out. And they would place that between these same little cloths and dry it. And they would smoke it from beneath and they'd keep that just really low. Oh, you could smell it all over the valley. You'd just--oh! And it was delicious. They did a good job. And they were interesting. Interesting, interesting people. And you know it was a good [AUDIO OUT] for kids. I remember my brother used go up, 14 or 15 years old, he and his two buddies Leo and Louie Russo--Leo Goodner and Louie Russo- and they'd go up to Saddle Mountain, take a little flour and little baking powder and maybe some salt and some lard. And they'd go up there and stay for a couple days. Nobody thought anything of it. There was a little spring up there and it was always green. And they'd just camp out and snare a rabbit or whatever. They just couldn't--they just loved it. Usually he went in good weather, yes. But we didn't have bad weather in summertime. But you wouldn't let a 14-year-old kid out now, three of them all by themselves? [LAUGHTER] But they had wonderful times. And it was a good place to raise kids, and it was good place to be raised, too. Really good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I want to ask you about the sheriff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Roy Bean was a fine man. I think I told you about him coming to get the boys to take the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You did before we started recording on the film-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, he was a deputy sheriff out of the Tri-Cities. And I think the main thing--the office was up in probably Yakima, I'm not sure. But he had two little girls. And Roberta went to school with me. And Loretta came along later. She was younger by a couple of years. But he came to our house one morning, and he--we were just up. Dutch wasn't up yet, my brother. But he said, I wonder, is Virgil up yet? And he said, no, he said, but I'll go get him. He said, what's he done now? And he says, he's sure going to get it if he's gotten into trouble. And he says, now I want you to understand. He says, there's nothing going to be trouble about this, Joe. He says, I want you to go get him up. He says, his two buddies are in my car. And, he says, we're going to do a little favor for some people. And he said, I don't want any repercussions about this. I don't want any questions about it. If I hear of any beatings about this, he says, I will deal with it. And my dad went in and got Dutch up. And he came out and got in the car. He was dressed. And they went up to the packing house, which is right across from Reierson's Grocery. And he says, now, we're going to go get that car, which you pushed down this incline last night and released the brake. And he says, we're going to push it back up that slight hill. It was probably down there about seven, eight blocks. Well, it was uphill, now. It wasn't so easy. But, he says, I'll help you with the brake here. And he said, we'll keep this released. And he said, we'll push this back up. So he got those three boys--probably 14, 15 years old--to push that car about seven or eight blocks up to be iced. And he came home. He was pretty sweaty and he was pretty tired. And he wanted some breakfast. [LAUGHTER] But nothing was ever mentioned about it. And he was a fine man. He knew how to handle people. And he wasn't out there to bully anybody or--and later, he came to a family reunion. We called him up and invited him, because we knew he'd lived in Milton-Freewater, him and his wife. And, of course, Roberta-I kept track of Roberta because she moved here. That was his oldest daughter. And so I was glad to meet them. And we invited him to the get-together. And he mentioned that. And he laughed about it to Dutch. Dutch was a little uneasy when he thought we were going to invite the Beans. [LAUGHTER] And I said, he made a good joke out of it. He says, I've used that a lot of times, he said, on how to and how not to. And he said, you turned out pretty good. He says, turned out pretty good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Someone else I wanted to ask you about-- when we were talking earlier, you were mentioning a man named Ellis John-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Ellis John was an interesting person. He lived down in old town in just one of the abandoned buildings. He had been on some kind of a merchant ship. And somebody on that ship that worked with him attacked him. And he was beating on him, and he killed him. And so they sent him to a penitentiary. It was a kind of an accidental killing. He didn't mean to but he was really--that's what I got out of it. But he lived there. He came to White Bluffs because it was such a nice little town. He came through there and he liked it. And he was an artist, a real artist. He did pictures of people. And he would make a few bucks, did paintings of them. And when I had my 10th birthday--my mother used to leave vegetables and fruit on his porch because she knew he didn't have a garden. And she always left vegetables and fruit if we had extra--because we always had extra--on his porch because he was kind of a recluse. But he would come out and talk to you. He was pleasant. And when I had my 10th birthday, my folks bought Muriel Beldin’s girl's bike for me to ride. And it was a smaller bike. And he painted roses on the fenders of that blue and white bike. And I had the prettiest bike in town when I moved to Walla Walla. [LAUGHTER] So I always remembered him because I was fascinated with--in fact, I took art in school because I was so fascinated with him. He would sit there and sketch somebody and--right in front of your eyes-- and make it live. And you wondered how he did that. He used charcoal a lot, and pen and ink, and paint. Just-- and I always felt bad because his life was kind of wasted there. He could've been--I mean he could make a likeness of anybody perfectly. But he chose to be there because we accepted him, and we respected his privacy. He had been through a lot. And I don't think he was a murderous person. I think it was something that happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So when and why did your family leave White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, in 1937, Hitler was very busy. And by 1941, he was even busier. And in June--in April of 1941, we moved to Walla Walla. My dad says, there's going to be some military. He says, you can bet your sweet life. He says, it's big enough to have some military. And he said, I want to be where there's some jobs. And so we moved to Walla Walla. And there was a veterans' hospital here and he was a veteran. And he said, I just think it'd be better, because they had surveyed our area in 1937, '36 or '37, I'm not sure which. But we kept surveyors at our house, so we knew they were surveying for something. And it took them, oh, a couple years to survey all that area that they were looking at. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: But you didn't know what they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: They didn't even know what they were surveying for. They were hired by the United States government. And they were employees of the United States government. So we kept Mama and Daddy Redd, we called them. And they were nice people. They had no children, and they just loved us. They just--she taught us really good things, things that we hadn't learned from our mom. Mama didn't know how to make fudge. She'd never had that much sugar to spare in her life. [LAUGHTER] So we all learned how to make fudge and penuche and good stuff from Ma Redd. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you knew they were working for the government, but you didn't know-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We didn't know. They didn't know. But they were there about, I would say, two years. So I associate it with the Manhattan Project because it's a logical. Hitler was busy. Oh boy, was he busy. So I don't know. It might have been, it might not have been. We thought it was an irrigation project. We were so excited, because an irrigation project [AUDIO OUT] would have given us more, see, I mean, you could have irrigated more land. But-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So how were you when you left White Bluffs and you moved-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I had my 11th birthday here. It was in the spring of 1941. And we didn't have war until 1941, December 7. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So as a 10- and 11-year-old girl, what did you think of leaving White Bluffs and moving to Walla Walla? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, I thought I was going to die. For one thing, they had a Holstein cow over at Margaret Stearns's where we lived in her little house when we came here. And my father took care of her yard and milked her cow and separated the milk. It was a Holstein cow. That's like skim milk. I didn't drink milk for a year. I couldn't handle it. I mean, we were used to--we had cream on top of the milk. And then we sold half of it to the little dairy. And, I says, this is what we slop the pigs with. I'm not drinking this. And they worried about me--I wasn't drinking milk. But it was probably better for me, but I wasn't used to it. I wasn't used to it. The Scandinavian blood in me calls for that milk with the fat in it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Did you keep in contact with the people from White Bluffs after you moved here to Walla Walla? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I knew Bonnie Morris was here, and her sister, Ruth--her sister-in-law, Ruth. They were both Morris girls. And I don't think they were sisters. I think they were cousins because we had two Morris families there. But Ruth went to school with my sister Dorothy at White Bluffs High School. And I went to school with Bonnie Morris, who went to White Bluffs Grade School. And I'll tell you what, I was sure jealous of that girl. She could do handstands and cartwheels all around the White Bluffs Grade School and not stop. She could do a flip over and throw herself up and come down on her feet. And I just--I was just amazed. She was a couple years older than me, or I thought she was. But I don't think so. I think she was probably close to my age. She probably--maybe it was one year. But she was a fantastic athlete. Even the boys envied her. I mean, she could just flip around like a circus performer. And here I was, a tomboy, but not delightful with things like gymnastics. There was always somebody we envy when we were kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So in 1943, a couple years after you moved away, the federal government came in and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Cleaned out everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --everybody had to leave. Did you hear about that from people you used-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: My sister was living there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, she was, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She was living in the Johnson place. She said nobody ever came and got the beautiful antiques she had upstairs. She had a teapot that came over on the Mayflower. The legs were--it was a silver teapot, and the legs were actually worn completely off. And it had the Ford name on it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So which sister was this, then, who had-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: That was Dorothy, my oldest sister that I love so much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And why had she stayed there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She stayed there because she had husband who was a truck driver. And she was expecting her first baby and didn't really know what else to do. And he was gone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Was this someone she had met in White Bluffs, then, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She met him in Kennewick. She was working at Kennewick General Hospital at the time. And she met Vern Fouracre. And they got married at our house. In fact, we chivareed them at our house. And that was probably when--I was 13 when I was an aunt, so Colleen was born in '43. And she wasn't born there. She was born—she was pregnant when she was there but she was born after that. And that's when they moved them out. They had to move everybody out. And I always wondered whatever became of Mrs. Johnson's beautiful things, because they were museum things. They should've been in a museum. They shouldn't have been in an attic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Right. Where did your sister and her husband go, then, when they had to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, they went back to Kennewick. And Colleen was born in Kennewick. Was born in--[AUDIO OUT] Then she came to Walla Walla. And she had a little boy a year or two later. She had four. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Have you ever gone back to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We went to the Hanford-White Bluffs picnics, I think, four or five times. And then, of course, the people who were doing the arranging for it--Annette Hereford and I can't remember the other boy. I can't remember the boy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Man off-camera: Bob Grisham, maybe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I believe, I believe. They graduated high school with Dorothy. And they just were getting too old to do that. And it was hard thing. And people were dying off. But Alice Moody was at the last one. I was, too. And I loved seeing her. And I knew her immediately. She looked just like herself, just exactly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So when you went to the reunions, it usually was a picnic, right, at the park, Howard Amon Park. Did you also do a tour-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Mm-hm. We did, we did. We could take our car in. First time, I think they had a bus for people who had no transportation, because the Tri-Cities had--they were old. Some people weren't driving anymore. So they evidently had acquired a bus for some that couldn't. And whoever had room in cars, we took them. But ours was always full because our kids were just fascinated by this. And we went to the dinners, little banquets that we had you. Mr. Reierson was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: What did you think when you had a chance to go back and see the land, the area where-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Broke my heart. Just broke my heart. We had a hard time finding--we wouldn't have found where our house was, except there was a water tank associated with this pump. And it set out front. It was made--and a lot of the people had them. Some of them had brick with a liner in it. But this one was cement and was kind of cone-shaped, and evidently was a holding tank for the house, or whatever. I don't know, I'm not sure. But it was there. And that was still there. They hadn't knocked that down. That's the only way--and it set up on a hill. It was the first row of hills as you came down toward the river--dropped down the river to Old Town. And so, that was how we found it. But there wasn't any stumps of trees left. There wasn't anything left. They actually had the crew of conscientious objectors at McNeil Island come down and cut the trees and the wood out of there, and took it back for fuel by truckloads. And that was the last, just before they released--they were already starting to build the reactors and things and dig the systems underneath, and storage thing under the--But it was a wonderful place to grow up, and I don't know that they'll ever get it cleaned up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Anything that we haven't talked about yet in terms of White Bluffs, any stories or events that stand out that we haven't had a chance to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I just think it was the best place to the world to raise kids because there was a community spirit-- that I never saw favoritism. I never saw belligerence about minding rules. I always saw a humanitarianism. If you knew that your husband or your neighbors or anybody was having a problem, you didn't make it your business. You didn't gossip about it. It wasn't a usual. It was more of any empathy, more of a sympathetic, let's just do what we can for them. I never saw the malice toward anybody because they were poor or maybe did something wrong. If there was a wrong committed, it was straightened out and talked about by the two people that did it. And it was left alone. And they had a tavern there. [AUDIO OUT] And, even there, it was not tolerated for people to act like a bunch of savages or fights or--It was a place to go have a cold beer if you wanted one, but I don't remember a lot of drunkenness or--I don't think he would have--Harry somebody was his name. It ended up two people owned it, but I can't remember what their name was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, the tavern? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: And we were gone, but they told us about it. And I can't remember, but that was the last of it. And it was just a little tavern. I probably, I don't know--it was probably four or five little tables and maybe a row along the bar. I remember standing out there one time because my dad went in to have a beer with a friend. And I said, well I'll wait out here and eat this ice cream cone from Pop English. [LAUGHTER] I knew what to do with it. He was a fine man. He actually organized the White Bluffs band. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: The high school band. And he made room for everybody. Everybody had-- Ola Meeks could do the baton twirl, and she taught two other girls to do that. And they had white pants with a--it's either black or navy blue stripe down the side--and a white shirt, just a plain little white shirt. The girls wore a white blouse. And everybody had a part in high school band. And they went up to Yakima and they took first place. That little-- and competing against Kennewick, Pasco? It was amazing! Somewhere we have a picture, and I don't have the picture. I can't find it. [LAUGHTER] But Dorothy just loved it. She played a drum, and she just loved it. And they did a good job. No, it was a fine place to grow up. And it was sad, because it really was a neighborhood community. And there were people who had plenty, I mean, they had--there were well-to-do people there. But they didn't flaunt it. They were no different when they went to the Grange meeting. Or whether they were entertaining, it was not—there was not any class distinction. And especially at school I noticed it. That's unusual. That's unusual. And we welcomed it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us come here and talk to you today, and for sharing your memories-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, you use what you can. I know you you'll cut, because, of course, you can't. You have to do what you have to do. But I know that people are going to give you some wonderful stories, stories about how they were accepted. And I'm sure every one of those people that you interview will tell you the same thing, that it was a wonderful community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Thanks again very much. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I appreciate your coming. </div> Location The location of the interview Yakima, Washington Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 227 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Boehmer, Dorothy Boehmer, LaVonne Boehmer, Helen Boehmer, Virgi Boehmer, Darlene Ford, Henry Borden, Patsy Moody, Alice Bean, Roy John, Ellis Fouracre, Vern Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leatris Reid Description An account of the resource An interview with Leatris Reed conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/27/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Walla Walla (Wash.) swimming Walla Walla (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb18fb8fb02595a53328f455b2d79a27a.jpg f3a236bf9ada805363e05abe6aa81860 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc4c95f1520ceebd3f3bdc6179328dd2e.mp4 128d8b59c705821b5fe16e0833a3731d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lee Burger Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lee Burger Description An account of the resource An interview with Lee Burger conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9d32bf0e26911c17ba909ee7933c9cf2.jpg 38025716da702b5f87c9d33218ebe6d7 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F978e229bc2a110e68e252bfaa951eab3.mp4 08e3248c99ef655cee5853bff0ff492b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lee Rogers Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lee Rogers Description An account of the resource An interview with Lee Rogers conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa5e7a9428b93bc29cab3e978d5afe1d5.jpg 89001cd3e96cc7589ff1055e312725ce https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbce8c4374bc93d10483e677f59006424.mp4 c40f8c9a1dadb8eda7acac4d3c0d8f6e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leo Faust Description An account of the resource An interview with Leo Faust conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6882153dbc90540b487f071f401a375c.jpg 2cd894a83e16e018fff86ca37acd9567 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c85f758b6a731e0386d229f544b596a.mp4 cb4acc5fafec52281cd9e7db12d6b296 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leo Kocher Description An account of the resource An interview with Leo Kocher conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0d45676a3422de6413fcb41b7fbfbc39.jpg 34d44ef015ac46aed6b6ef6e8083f483 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89e3606bac5578083c25aee50bd9adcd.mp4 db0d543194dca99d64b53dd144be44a0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leo Munson Description An account of the resource An interview with Leo Munson conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3e4aaec73e6f6c9ba18a36475c893e05.jpg bde01b50c49fdd19de9845aaa9a2a017 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fab86fcd9bafe1ad87121451929b5f8b0.mp4 bf4cb3c2a0e804cfdad85f1d48db7166 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leonard Peters Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Northwest Public Television | Peters_Leonard </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Leonard Peters: Leonard Peters. L-E-O-N-A-R-D P-E-T-E-R-S. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's November 19th--already--2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start, if you could tell us a little bit about how your family came to Hanford and where you were from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I was born in Denver in August of '43. My father came out in June or July of '43 from Denver. And so my mom, myself, and my brother were there in Denver, and when I was two months old we came out with another family, the Carl Eckert family. And it was my mom, Mrs. Eckert, their daughter--who was about my age--and my brothers. So five of us came out in a car in October of '43. And my dad was working out here. And so that's how we came out, was in an old car. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: And what was your father doing at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He was a truck driver. He drove for Remington Arms in Denver, who was DuPont, and he also worked for Bechtel up in Alaska. And he came down and went back to Denver and was driving, heard about this place. And if you'd like a very interesting story-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Always. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He was driving for an Army officer. A colonel or something, I'm not sure. Kind of a--I'll say chauffeur, but it wasn't really a chauffeur. But my dad had heard about this place. And he asked his--I'll say colonel--about it. And very few people knew about it. But this colonel says, well, I can't tell you anything about it, but if you've heard of heavy water, it has something to do with heavy water. Of course my dad, heavy water didn't mean anything to him. But you know, hindsight. It's kind of interesting to me this colonel knew a little bit about what was going on here. As big a secret as it was, not that many people knew. But he had some idea of what was going on. I found that very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Yeah. And how long did your father work at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: From '43 until he retired in '73. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Okay, well, we'll come back to that. I want to ask you just a few questions about the area. Obviously you were very, very young— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I'm sorry. He passed away in '73. He retired in '67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Okay. I'll have more questions for you. [LAUGHTER] Do you remember, growing up, what sort of housing you lived in, what the situation was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: My first memory was an A house, 1520 Thayer. We moved in there about 1945. So that's my first memory, though we lived many places before that, as my dad's Q clearance bears out. But my memory goes back to the A house in 1945. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Did you live there for quite a while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Lived there until around '56, '57. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: And could you describe that house a little bit, for anyone who doesn't know what an A house is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: An A house is a duplex, two-story. You have neighbors literally right next door to you. It was a three-bedroom, all upstairs. And of course back then there was no air conditioning, and it would get hot in the summertime. I can literally remember summers, 109 to 110, 112 degrees. And the only air conditioning was a swamp cooler. So it was pretty miserable, but yet you didn't think about it because that's just the way it was. The government literally furnished everything, from throw rugs to table, chairs. I mean literally everything. Coal. We had a coal-burning furnace, and like once a month or so on, they would deliver coal. And you had to make sure there was a coal bin that had slats in it, and you had to make sure that the slats were in, because if you forgot to put the slats in you'd have coal all over the basement floor. And so that was kind of interesting. My dad, every morning, would have to get up and stoke the fire and get it going in wintertime, because we used to have some pretty bad winters compared to today. And so that was, again, just part of living in this area. Dust storms. You've heard of the termination winds. The wind would blow and the curtains would go back and forth and just wave in the breeze, with all the windows closed. And you'd have a quarter of an inch of dust on the windowsills and everything. But there again, that's just the way it was. I can remember one story--my wife tells that when her mother came out with her and her brother, met at the train station, and the father was there to pick them up. There was a windstorm right then. And her first words were "Sherman, get me a ticket back home." And they ended up dying here, and buried here. And I know my dad, he swore he would never—he wanted to go back to Colorado, but again, he was buried here and lived here all the rest of his life. But what else can I say on the government? Everything—you know, I've heard of people—we never did do it, but people get tired of a chair or something, they'd break it, call housing. They would need another chair, and they'd come out and replace the chair. And if you had—back then they had fuses, as opposed to breakers. Blow a fuse, call housing, they'd send an electrician out to change the fuse for you. I mean, it was pretty amazing, really. And it was good quality furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Cool. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about growing up in Richland in the '40s and '50s, sort of what the community was like at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: It was a fairly small town, of course. I think--and this is just my memory--it was about probably maybe 23,000 people, was all. Something like that. And it was truly a Leave It to Beaver era. People laugh at that, but that's exactly what it was, because if you stop and think about it--in order to live in Richland, you had to work out in the area. In order to work out in the area, you needed clearance. And it was not unusual to have someone knock at the door and be an FBI agent investigating someone or something. I mean, it was very controlled. And so there was no crime to speak of. Nickel and dime stuff. But there was one murder, in all those years. They never did find the killer. But no, we'd play out all night and folks wouldn't think a thing about it. That’s just the way it was. And in the summertime, like I said, as hot as it was, all the windows and doors would be wide open and wouldn't think a thing about it. And people kind of knew one another. Not that you knew everybody, but that small a town and everyone working out there. Everyone rode the bus, so there was a camaraderie with not only where you worked but also on the buses. And people I think really did try and watch out for one another. But no, growing up, it was great. One kind of fun story. We used to hooky-bob. You know what that is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I don't. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Okay, what we'd do in the wintertime when the roads were snowy and icy. You'd hide behind a bush, and as a car went by, you ran out and grabbed the bumper and had them drag you around. And that was a lot of fun. That was one of the winter sports. But it was kind of interesting. I can remember, newspaper front page showed a bus with a glove on it. The story was, it was a hooky-bobber and his hand was wet and it froze to the bumper, and--make a long story short, it was on the dangers of hooky-bobbing. But it just happens that the guy that that glove belonged to graduated a couple years ahead of me. Name was Jim Crum, who is now an attorney for the US government. But no, it was a fun time. I mean, Friday night shows was wall-to-wall kids. Very seldom was there a fight or anything. We'd hang out at the Spudnut Shop, or there was another place called Tim's. Someone that had a car would drive around the Uptown area about 30 times, just looking for gals or whatever. I mean, it was an American Graffiti time. Have you seen American Graffiti? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Yes, sir. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: You see that, and every person in there--Hey, that was so-and-so; that was so-and-so. I mean, it was so accurate to our high school days. It was a good time to grow up. Wintertime, of course, we had Christmas tree forts, and if there was snow on the ground we'd have snow forts and choose up sides and have snowball fights hiding behind our snow forts. We would, if there was no snow--or even if there was snow after Christmas--build Christmas tree forts. Stack them up and have a roof on it, even sleep out in it. But if a neighbor down the street--you know, if they had a Christmas tree fort, about one or two in the morning we'd sneak down and steal all their trees. And we'd have a bigger fort then. We would sleep out a lot in the summertime, because it was hot. I can remember we would sleep out maybe 10 o'clock at night or so. There were still orchards, cherry orchards in town. Up on Van Giesen. We lived just around the corner on Thayer. We'd get up, go down there and steal cherries. We'd steal quite a few cherries. Then the next day we'd sell them house to house. What else was there? The buses were a big part. The buses were fun, because there was two groups. They were both run by the government, but there was what they called the city local, which took people from point A to point B as far as downtown and uptown, different places. Then there was the outer area buses that took workers to work and brought them home. But there was two different--not bus companies, but groups of drivers that drove for each group. But not only hooky-bobbing, but it was always fun to--as buses passed--snowball them, and throw snowballs at them. Just fun things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Some good winter sports. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit more about these--you mentioned Friday night shows, and also the Spudnut Shop. Could you describe those a little bit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I mean, everyone went to them. All the kids went to them. And you know, you're talking the '50s, where rock and roll was just coming in. I wrote a piece one time on--I really think that we were born at a nice time, because we can remember big bands, we can remember that type of music and how rock and roll came in. And of course parents didn't like rock and roll at all. It was evil, and all this. But a lot of the movies, some of the movies, had rock and roll stars. I can remember people dancing in the aisles while the movie was on. Things like that. I can remember one gal was dancing what they used to call a dirty bop. They ended up kicking her out. [LAUGHTER] But no, there was dancing and hooting and hollering. Before the Uptown Theater opened was the Village Theater. And that was when we were younger, but that's when they showed the serials, whether it be Superman or Whip Wilson or whomever. But every Saturday we'd go to the show. There'd be a cartoon as well as one or two double feature. That's back--we were young, but a fun thing then, I guess, was to have your popcorn boxes. They were boxes at the time. You'd flatten them and throw them and make a shadow on the screen. That was the big deal. But the Village Theater was so strange because it was all kids, basically. Because the Richland Theater, which is now The Players, was more the adults. The Village Theater was for little kids. But you would walk down the aisles, and was a kind of carpeting, and you'd stick, stick, stick, stick. I don't think they ever cleaned it. Pop spilled on it, candy bars, and everything else. That was fun. Then they did build the Uptown Theater, and that was more adult movies. But on Friday night, it was lot of science fiction. That's where you saw Frankenstein, Dracula, The Wolfman, and all that. Then the midnight shows had really neat--they'd have a midnight show, and we wouldn't get home until three in the morning, but no big deal. You'd walk home. No big deal. I don't know if you can do it today, but there'd be half a dozen of your friends walking home with you, just having a good time. But the Friday night shows--I started smoking quite early. I don't smoke now. But I can remember, for mowing the lawn and peeling the taters and things that, I’d get $1 a week allowance. And with that dollar I could buy a pack of cigarettes, which would last me a week, get into the show, and have like a dime left over. So I mean, a dollar, I was in fat city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Do you remember how much a movie cost, about that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: First ones I can remember was $0.11 or $0.12, and then it went to $0.20. And I think during my high school days, if I remember right, it was probably $0.35, something like that. I'm not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: All right. I'm fascinated by the Spudnut Shop and Tim's. Can you describe those a little? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, Tim's was where Dr. Chavla placed his--it's kind of caddy-cornered from the graveyard, the old graveyard. And it was a nice place. A fireplace in it and everything. That's where the kids hung out. And it wasn't really a pizza parlor, but it was kind of a pizza parlor sandwich place. It was our high school days, and it closed, I'm not sure exactly when, but became Einan's Funeral Home. It went from the restaurant to Einan's Funeral Home. And then Einan's, of course, moved out on the bypass. But the Spudnut shop, it's bigger now than it was. It used to just be just a few booths. But I can remember Spudnuts were, let's say, $0.10. And for a Spudnut ala mode--that was a Spudnut with soft ice cream on it--that was $0.15. And if you had $0.15 for that, you was in pretty good shape, because we didn't have money like that. And there was another place just two doors down from that that was the Fission Chips. But it was interesting the way they spelled fission. It was fission, like nuclear. It was Fission Chips. You can see some old pictures of the Spudnut shop, and just a couple doors down, you'll see the Fission Chips. But we'd hang out in the Spudnut Shop before the movie, and then maybe go there after the movie. And that's just where everyone hung out. When we had a car later, more in our high school years, we hung out at a place called Skip's. It was where Les Schwab is now. That was kind of the hangout there. I don't know if you want this on there. It's not very nice. But Skip's, there was a young girl worked there with a cleft palate. One the guys that we kind of ran with, he had a cleft palate also. He was about three years older than me. But he pulled in there, him and friends, and she said in her cleft palate way, ,ay I help you? He said yeah, give me a such and such. And she got mad, you don't have to make fun of me! Because she though he was just making fun of her. Kind of a sad story, but kind of humorous also. The movies was a big part of life. Of course, swimming. We used to swim in the Yakima a lot. And the old pool, what we used to call the big pool, down in what's now Howard Amon Park—it used to be Riverside Park--there was a swimming pool there. And the flood of '48, '47-'48, it flooded the park. And so they done away with that pool and built the present one. That flood was quite a deal. I can remember going--the bridge was out--going out of Richland, and they had a pontoon bridge. And that causeway wasn't there then. It was just flat. But I thought that was so neat. We was going across the bridge, and you see pontoons all the way across it with lumber to drive on. And that always impressed me. Down around Gowen and things, I can remember the basements flooded from that flood. And it was quite a flood. That's when they built the dam or dike around Richland and Kennewick and so on. The—I was thinking of something else, and lost it. But no, the flood was quite an event. I worked with a guy named Ralph Schafer, who had a private pilot's license, and they hired him as a bus driver. But they let him go from bus driving long enough, because the only way to the airport at the time was to fly from Richland to Pasco. So they hired him to ferry people to the Pasco airport in his private plane, because basically there was no way out of Richland, until they put that pontoon bridge in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I wonder if you could talk about--obviously you went through school here. Do you have any memories--there were also some residents that were here prior to 1943, that were still in school here, that were moved off of their family lands. Did you go to school with anybody who had memories of that, that you recall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Not to my knowledge. You hear all kinds of stories and things that I don't know. I know I've heard that one family--or some people, I'll say--when they were, quote, kicked out of White Bluffs Hanford area, they moved to Prosser, Sunnyside, somewhere up there, and swore they'd never set foot in Richland. And whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I know there's hard feelings over it, rightfully so. But no, I don't know of anyone. I know we had a lot of construction workers in trailer parks in north Richland. There was a big trailer park, and they had an elementary school out there, John Ball. And once they got all the houses built that they were going to build, I guess, they closed the trailer park and closed John Ball and had them all into town. But I can remember living on Thayer, going to school at Old Sacky—Sacajawea, the Old Sacky--that for some reason, for two-three days they sent me to Spalding. I had to walk to school, which was maybe three, four blocks, five blocks. I can remember big piles of dirt, having to climb over them to get to school. And the reason for that was they were building the ranch houses at that time. So I was probably first grade, I'm guessing. So they were still building in the late '40s, early '50s. In fact, Bauer Days and the Richland Village came later, after the letter houses. But school--no, I honestly can't remember any kids there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: No problem. We're here to get your memories, so. A bunch of other things I want to ask you. One thing, you said your father worked in Hanford until '67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: He retired in '67. So he was working in the area when President Kennedy came, in 1963. Do you have any memories of that event? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: No. I was in the Navy then, so no. I know my wife said that she went out to see him. And there were so many people you could hardly see him, but she went out to it. But no, I got out of the Navy in October, '63. I was on a train back to Denver to visit relatives. It's kind of sad. I was sitting in the club car playing cards with strangers, and the porter came in--a black fella--says, [EMOTIONAL] the President's been shot. And we all--aww, go on, he's pulling our leg, he's joking. Then I says, you don't joke about something like that. We were somewhere around Wyoming on the train, and then they was able to get a radio station over the PA or whatever it was. Sure enough, a little bit later--that he had died. And that's how I learned of it. I'll never forget that train ride. Got to Denver, and it was just strange. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Of course. And we're right on the anniversary of it now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. Yeah. But my dad, I don't know if he went to see him or not. I mean, he was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. He came out of the Depression. He was born in '03, so he'd been through a lot. I can remember him saying that he'd vote for a yellow dog before he'd vote for a Republican. He was the old Democrat. But he did vote for one Republican. That was John Dam, who was running for county commissioner. They were personal friends. He said that's the only Republican he'd ever voted for. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: One exception. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So did you work at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: You did. So could you start filling us in on that a little? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I worked 40 years out there. Hired on '65. And luckily my dad was still working, so we overlapped. We were both drivers. And I started out as a laborer, though they called them servicemen--basically a laborer. And I got set up to bus driver. And in '61, had a layoff. And I could have stayed, but I thought, man, let's see what else is out there. And I went and worked for Battelle. I was with Battelle for about 13 years in inhalation toxicology. Long-term study. Plutonium, curium, americium studies on dogs. And in about '84 I quit Battelle and went back to transportation, because money. You know that all your college folks know that biology is not real high-paying, unless you're a PhD or something. But a BS in biology's not much. But no, I really enjoyed that. In fact, when McCluskey's glove box blew up, about 200 Areas were exposed to--I forget if it was curium or americium, but there hadn't been a lot of studies on those. And like I said, I was working in inhalation toxicology, and we got two or three big contracts right after that to study the health effects of curium and americium through inhalation. He was an amazing man, because I worked with PhDs. Immunologists, veterinaries, hematologists. You name it, we had the discipline there. Pathologists. And they didn't give him six months to live, with what he got. And he ended up living probably 20 years or better. It is quite an amazing story. You can go on the internet and look up Atomic Man, and his story's in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: We actually interviewed the gentleman who was in charge of the cleanup, cleaning up his hospital room. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. I don't know if it was this guy I worked with, what we called a radiation monitor. Now they're HPTs or something. But he was with him, scrubbing him and things. His name was Larry Belt. He'd be a good interview for you. I worked with Larry for a number of years. He was our radiation monitor when we exposed dogs and so on. But he said, you can't believe the pain this man was in. He said, we had to literally scrub him with brushes, because he had stuff embedded in his face and so on. Terrible. He says, submerge him and scrub him. No, Larry Belt could tell some stories about it. But back to my job. I quit Battelle for financial reasons and went back to driving. Drove a bus for a lot of years. They shut the bus system down, and I went and worked driving a truck, and drove ERDF trucks hauling the solid waste from out around the river and so on. Did that for a number of years and retired. I taught HAZMAT classes for the last about ten years. But buses were the fun job. A lot of stories there. One of our drivers named Carl Adcock was driving down Delafield, taking the day shift home--so it was about four or five in the afternoon—and a little girl was standing out in the middle of the street playing. About five, six years old. Stopped his bus, pulled the brake, got out and spanked her butt, get out of here! Got back in the bus, and the passengers were just--what are you doing? You could get in trouble for that. And it was his daughter. But no, we've had people have epileptic seizures on the bus. And there's all sorts of things like that. A lot of stories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: You must see a little bit of everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, yeah. We had poker games, bridge games, on the buses. They had cardboard tables. Four people would sit down, put their table between the aisles and play cards. They had a bridge game going from 100F, which was where the animals were before they built 300—the animal life sciences 300 Area--but they had a bridge game that was going steady for at least 30, 35 years. I mean, it was different people. You know, someone would retire, someone else would take their place. But it started out at 100F at lunch break and then on the bus, and it continued. When we were at 300 they were still playing. Again, it was different players, but it was the same game. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Wow. There's something I wanted to ask you about. Returning back to when you worked in inhalation toxicology at Battelle, did you work with the smoking beagles? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yes. That was my first job, was smoking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: We just interviewed Vanis Daniels-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, yeah. I know Vanis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: --last week, who worked with the smoking beagles. Can you describe for us the process of getting the beagles to smoke two packs a day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, the hard part's lighting 'em. No, the reason for the study, as I understood it, was uranium miners were dying early, and they wanted to know why. Because it could be cigarette smoke--because most of them were smokers--uranium ore dust or it could be radon daughters. And so we had a group of--I forget now. 70 dogs, 60. Something like that. And 10 of would receive smoke only, cigarette smoke only. They had a table, kind of a horseshoe. The mask fit over their muzzle with a cigarette in there, and like every seventh or tenth breath, a little gadget would open and their breath would suck in the smoke. But then ten of them would receive uranium ore dust and radon daughters. There was a large chamber that held ten dogs around it, and up in the top there was a grinder thing that would grind the ore dust and sprinkle it down in. I mean, it wasn't noticeable, it wasn't thick, but it was in there. And then we had radon. I think it was water bubbled through it that would give the radon gas, and it would get into the chamber. And then we had another ten that would receive cigarette and the radon. And then a control group that didn't receive anything. They were called sham. You'd bring them in, go through all the same routine, but they wouldn't receive anything. And just see what the effects were. And it was a lifespan study, so you'd look at the dosage and how long they lived and what affected them the most. So that's basically what it was. One story I heard--probably true--was that the Russians said that our limits were too high, should be lower. So that maybe prompted it, I don't know. Then after that when we got to 300 Area, 100-F moved into 300 Area, and they closed 100-F down. And then they had a group of just smoking dogs. And it was more difficult in the sense that we had a mask that fit over their muzzle, and they could trick it. They could breathe out of the side of their mouth. When they did it at one area they trached them, and there was no cheating that. It was direct. There was no getting around that. I learned a lot. I mean, that was one of the most exciting jobs. And the learning curve was just like that. I really learned a lot about physiology and biology and chemistry. You work there that long, and you learn a lot. Because part of my job was necropsy--or what they call autopsy, but necropsing the dogs. And we always said we took everything but the bark. I mean we literally disarticulated them and took every piece that they had. Every organ, every bone, separated it. The reason for that—we wanted to know where the plutonium or curium or whatever went to in the body. Where was the body burden? Was it in the lungs, was it in the bones? And interestingly enough, we exposed Pu-238 and 239, and the 238 would be a bone-seeker. The bones would have high doses. But in 239, the bones hardly got anything. It was all soft tissue. So they learned a lot from that, as far as where these elements--what they seek. The target organs, if you will. I don't know if all that should go in this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Fascinating. I really love hearing about it. Could you talk a little bit about--obviously, during those times, security and secrecy was still very much a part of working at Hanford. Did that impact your work at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, a lot. You know, being raised--from my oldest memories, it was secure. And I can remember when I was probably about 10, 11, 12 years old I went in for a library card here in Richland. They asked who my dad worked for, and I was scared to tell them. Because the security--my dad never told me what was going on out there. And I knew security was a big deal. And I says, I don't know. I kind of knew, but I--And she says, well, what does he do? And I says, well, he drives. So then she wrote down General Electric. But no, I mean, it was paramount even as a kid. I can remember—and this is kind of funny hindsight--but kind of put yourself in that timeframe--I can remember calling my brother who was seven, eight, nine years old--would have been in the early '50s, McCarthy era--I can remember calling my brother a dirty communist. And my dad just came unglued. He would rather have me call him S.O.B. than that, because that wasn't something you messed with in the early '50s, with the FBI and everything else. But I mean, security was bred into you, I guess. And when I hired on, it was still, but not like it was. But many of us still had that same mentality. I can remember when they started releasing things to the public. That always bothered me, because this is secure, and people don't have the need to know a lot of this stuff. Security was a big deal. I mean, you didn't go anyplace without a security badge. They could stop you, search your car, and everything else. So it was a high priority. There was seclusion areas within the area. You might get out in the area, but you might not be able to get into a certain area. When you got in that area, you couldn't get into another area, like dash-5 or Z-Plant or REDOX or PUREX. You needed extra security on your badge to get in these places. So security was very tough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit about how Hanford was overall as a place to work? Anything you found particularly challenging or very rewarding about your time in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I think it was great. You know, let's face it, it was great for a lot of people that worked here. I mean, good pay—relatively good pay, and a lot of people raised their families and sent them to school on this pay out here. And as far as working out there, we really had fun in the early days. And by the early days, I mean when I hired on. Because I felt very lucky that when I hired on, most of the old-timers were still working. And by old-timers I mean them that hired in the '40s. So a lot of the stories, a lot of things that they knew and interesting things that they talked about, I was privy to. And that was great. And it was, to me, really a fun place to work. I really enjoyed it. Later I can remember saying more than once in the '80s or '90s, this isn't fun like it used to be. And it wasn't. But you know, I was younger then, and that made a difference. I was about 21, 22 when I hired on. And so times changed. I think in the early days--by that, my early days--there was what we call maybe some dead wood. And they might have five people to do a job for two people. But I mean, it was good, it was job security. Well, then came the cuts and so on. I think that made it a little different, because one thing that's bothered me over the years, there's been layoffs. But you can check the records. Many times after these layoffs, within six months they're calling them back, because work has to be done. We might cut 500 people, but that job is still there, so they called a portion of them back. Which, to me, doesn't make sense. But I don't think there's the fat out there that there was at one time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? Any other stories that stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I think the racial thing was a big story in the early days because there wasn't that many black people working out there. And I can remember us--I mentioned earlier that Richland didn't have hardly any blacks. We had one black I'm aware of. He was a shoeshine guy at the Ganzel's barbershop. His picture is still in there. But I can remember--I must have been six, seven years old--I saw my first black person. I was in a car downtown with my mom. And I saw him, and I just saw his hands and face. And I can remember wondering, I wonder if his whole body is that way—we just didn't see them. We had two black guys in high school. C.W. and Norris Brown, who was terrific basketball players. And the main reason their family moved was because of those two boys. It was a different time then. I don't know it should go on record, because I don't know if it's true or not, but talking about the early people that worked there, one of the stories that I heard--and like I say, whether it's true, I have no idea. But they were out working, and they had a burn barrel. It was very cold. A barrel full of wood and so on, a burn barrel. The construction workers were huddled around it, and this one colored individual this kind of bulled his way in. He wanted to get up to the front. And the story goes--whether, again, true or not, I don't know--a carpenter took his hammer and ended it. And that wouldn't surprise me, though I don't know if it's true or not. Because there was prejudice. A lot of the people that came here were from the South, and it was a different lifestyle. I know that they had separate camps for the blacks and the whites. And it was segregated. So I can remember when I was driving the bus here, we only had--to my recollection—one black in all of transportation. There may have been more, but I think only one. And it wasn't until probably '63 or '64 that they really started recruiting blacks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I understand there were labor organizers and people who came in with the NAACP and that sort of thing to sort of assess conditions, which would have been about the time you were working in the 100 and 300 Areas. Do you have any recollections of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, the one black that I told you about was a serviceman—labor. Same group I was in. And he was the head of the local NAACP. His name was McGee. And the way you became a driver was seniority. In other words, if this driver retired and you were next in seniority, you'd get that job. Well, he was the next one up, as a laborer, for a driving job. They wouldn't give it to him, for obvious reasons. Well, he fought it through the NAACP and he ended up becoming a driver. But they was not going to give him that job because of his race. Battelle, to their credit, was the first ones to make an overt effort to hire black people. And that's where--gentleman you mentioned earlier. And Battelle had--not overwhelming, but a number of blacks working for them. And in inhalation toxicology we had a number in animal care as well as in the crafts. So I would say from '63 on, it started changing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So this is kind of my last question--we'll have students accessing these interviews. Most of my students now are too young to have remembered the Cold War. It's sort of an older-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So maybe if you could just talk a little bit about what it was like being part of this Cold War effort, and what you'd like students or future generations to know about contributions to that process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. I know there's different views on this, but I feel very strongly about--because I knew a lot of GIs from that time frame—had two uncles that were in the war. And you know, the atomic bombs, and we made the plutonium here for the bomb, literally ended the war. I am a firm believer--had we had to invade, there'd been hundreds of thousands on both sides killed. And they talk about the badness, rightfully so, of the atomic bomb. But you look at the conventional bombing of Germany, and it was as bad or worse as the atomic bombs. The firebombing of Tokyo. Things like that. So as bad as the atomic bomb was, it did end the war. You'd had to live through it. Now, as far as the Cold War goes, you know, the place wasn't supposed to last much more than ten years. And that's what everyone thought. Well, then the Russians got the bomb. That changed things a little bit. And it was scary. I mean, like I said earlier, me calling my brother communist. I wasn't old enough to really realize what was going on, but I can remember--would've been during the Korean War--my dad came to my brother and I and said, I want to know where you guys are all the time, because we might have to leave town in a hurry. That was the mentality of that time. We had air-raid sirens throughout the town. I can remember every--I believe it was Monday at ten o'clock, they would go off to test. But there was one right behind Jason Lee, where I was going at the time, and it was loud. Every--I think it was Monday or Tuesday, at ten o'clock they'd go off. Because we literally were on standby. We didn't know what was going to happen. And the Korean War and then the McCarthy era, it was a scary time for adults. You know, as a kid, you didn't notice it, other than watching others. But I think Hanford had a lot to do with ending the war. Which ushered in the Cold War, because of the proliferation of the weapons. And you have to give credit to whomever for tearing down the wall, for bringing somewhat of a peace in the world—I say somewhat. I think it was our spending billions of dollars building up our—you know the old saying, peace through strength. That's what Reagan did. He was a big spender, but he got the job done. But Hanford was unique, because I can still remember there was anti-aircraft placements out there. When I hired on, all the old track houses were still there. I worked on a fuel truck, and we would fuel here and there and then we'd go out into the desert area, if you will, and look at these old houses that were still standing. And the old icehouse was still there. And a lot of these buildings were still there in the '60s. And why they had the need to tear them all down, I don't know. I think it was a shame. But they tore them all down other than the bank and the school. I believe about all that's left. No, it was a different time. Like I say, I can still remember my dad telling us both, I want to know where you are in case we have to leave town. I mentioned earlier, the FBI--it was not unusual to have an FBI agent knock at the door and talk to my folks about so-and-so. We had neighbors that lived in the same house—in our A house, our neighbors there was there one day and gone the next. It wasn't unusual to--you're out of here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Certainly a different time. I want to thank you so much for coming in and sharing your memories with us. I really appreciate it. We'll film all these goodies you brought us, if that's okay-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: --before we have to go. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:57:05 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 194 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 100 F Area Z Plant Dash 5 Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1945-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-2005 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Belt, Larry Daniels, Vanis Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leonard Peters Description An account of the resource An interview with Leonard Peters conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/19/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 100 F Area 200 Area 300 Area Dash 5 Plant Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff3d85bde00e86e0c74863a946d82d95d.jpg afffa7c79551d98dda0f88b751d2c406 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b04b9ce1b21e1ea75e4060d99aac9f3.mp4 50f96b20387d4d3089b3a6aceecfbccc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leroy Noga Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Northwest Public Television | Noga_Leroy </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Leroy Noga: Leroy Noga. But I usually go by Lee all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Robert Bauman: And your last name is N-O-G-A? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: N-O-G-A, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Okay. All right. My name's Robert Bauman. Today's date is October 15th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start if we could just by having you talk about how and why you came to Hanford. When that happened, what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I had hired--in the state of Minnesota. And they painted a picture of all the pine trees and everything, and several of us come out here in 1955. So I drove out here--it was January in '55. And from Spokane to here—it was at night and it was foggy where you could cut it with a knife. I couldn't even see the white line on the side, hardly. Anyway, I stayed at the Desert Motel in Richland. And next morning, got in the car and I see all this stuff that looked like I was on the moon or something. Sage brush. Where's all the pine trees, you know? I couldn't believe it. Everybody's got a picture of Washington with the beautiful pine trees and everything. [LAUGHTER] Including us from Minnesota. Anyway, so then of course I hired in with GE. And stayed in the dorm, men's dorm. And that was another shocker because I'm a ballroom dancer and used to going to several ballrooms in Minneapolis. Big ones--the Prom, the Marigold. And I would always never have a problem to pick up a woman--a nice looking woman to dance with. And here everything was--the women were afraid to go out. They stayed in the dorm and there wasn't anybody to dance with. I was very disappointed and I thought, as soon as I get enough money, I'm leaving town, and I'm going on. I was single at the time, of course. But then I went to work in K Area and K-West. Around suddenly and after I got to see the area a little bit. Of course, I'm from Minnesota, land of the ten-thousand lakes--we actually got a lot more than that. But here it was rivers, and I was unfamiliar with rivers. But after I got acquainted just a little bit, and found out how the hunting was--very good duck hunting and pheasant hunting at the time. I thought, hey, this isn't so bad. And then I tried the river fishing, which was quite different. And that wasn't so bad either. I was able to catch fish. And then I did dance with a local girl that said, well Lee, just stick it out a little while. It kind of grows on you. And I still remember that statement, and I'm still here— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: --after all this time. And I wouldn't move. Of course the area has changed a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And we had dust storms then. A couple of us bachelors, we stayed in a Bower Day House. And after one dust storm, I think we had about a half of inch of dust on the floor the next day. And that was typical. They weren't too well built, as far as keeping the dust out. And I can remember another time there living in the same house where we had a big snowstorm and then we got a chinook after that, chinook wind. Which we used to get a lot of those warm chinook winds, of course. And I remember the water had melted so fast, that the water had washed a full six pack right in front of our house. And I thought, well that's nice. [LAUGHTER] And anyway, as far as--you were going to ask me some questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. Well I going to--about how long were you in the dorms then? And then how long did you live in the Bower Day House? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I was in the dorms--gee, that that's going way back. I don't remember. Maybe a year a year or maybe a little longer. I remember I missed a piano, because I used to play the piano. And I rented a piano and put it downstairs in a dorm. It was kind of something you don't usually do. But I did it anyway and played. And we ate breakfast every morning at the Mart which is now the Davidson Building, I think it is--right there across from the post office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Big mart, everybody was eating there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: What was Richland like as a community in the 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, everybody kept their doors open. Never locked them. It was a government town so it was very safe. With no crime like there is now. You remember the officers’ club and stuff out the area where they had--well the government tried to keep us here, and so they had big functions out there. Dances and name performers out there. And I was out there a few times--out here in north Richland. The government, of course, didn't want us to quit. And some of us stuck it out, like myself. And I worked for ten years for GE and then GE pulled out. And that's something that really irritates me to this day because--I don't know if--you probably don't want to televise this, but anyway, I think that was timed. The government always has these contractors come in and then they change. And I was—they had a ten year contract to be vested. But they had an age clause. You had to be 28 years old and I was a one month away from that. So I either had to go back east and work for GE back there—but I had a family of four now. And of course I didn't want to go back there and leave my family here. So I didn't get vested. And then different companies come. And Westinghouse, and on, and on. And every time I really had a nice job—I really loved it--a different company would come in. I had to change companies or I had to change jobs. I finally got tired of it and I quit. And I started my own business. And I might mention this--while having my own business, I did security systems, and fire systems, and stuff like that. And I was the first company that installed the first security system out here in the 300 Area. It was ultrasonic over the fuel rod of the pool. And so I thought that was something that maybe someone else didn't do out here, related to the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Right. And so what year was that then? Roughly around the time period that you quit and started your own business? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, it had to be after ten years. I quit—I don't remember just exactly what year I quit out here. I worked for Battelle. And then I think Westinghouse come in. I think that's when I quit. Rather than change companies again, I just got tired of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Let's go back--if it's okay to go back a little bit. You mentioned your first job was to K-West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So what sort of job was it? What sort of work were you doing then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well I was instrumentation, of course. And did all the instrumentation out there. It was a very--I liked it because it was such a variety of different instrumentation. And then some of the really nasty work we had to do as an instrument person was go on the rear face with the water dripping down. All dressed up in rain gear, gloves, and everything double, you know. And the radiation was so intense back there that you could only spend about 15 minutes, 20 minutes, or something. And you were back there to replace these bad thermal temperature devices on the rear face. I didn't really like the working in the reactors too much. And I tried to get into the 300 Area labs, which I finally was able to do. They didn't like to let us go out there in areas, but I finally made it. And then we--in the 300 Area that was very interesting, too. Because there we got the moon rocks and we analyzed those. And I worked with chemical engineers and whatever to get the right instrumentation. Whatever they needed to put that stuff together so they could do what they want. It was interesting work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: We had what they called multi-channel analyzers at that time. We didn't have computers yet. It was—the computer age was just starting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: If we can go back again to talking about working on the rear face of the reactor. You said, you could only be there for about 15 or 20 minutes. Was that only 15, 20 minutes that day, and then you couldn't go back in again that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, you were burned out for--well I can't remember the period. You were burned out. You couldn't go back there for maybe a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Wow. And so I assume you had some sort of dosimeter, or badge, or something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, you had pencils and stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Mm-hmm. Which they read when you came off the rear face. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were there ever any times working there that you had an overexposure, or anything like that? Or any of your coworkers, or anything along those lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I was never overexposed, I don't believe. I think there probably were some incidences but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: None that you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: They were pretty careful--radiation monitoring were pretty careful to always check the time and they always read the dosimeters. And that was pretty well adhered to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And then you said you moved to the labs. Is that the 300 Area, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And you worked there for several years, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, I worked there for—I don’t know—eight years or so, maybe. And then when I quit, I came back as the--I quit for, I think 12 years, when I had my own business. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And then I came back as a manual writer. It was an engineer’s title. I forget the glorified name I got. [LAUGHTER] But it was a manual writer writing procedures N Reactor. Instrument procedures for the--because I was an instrument person. It was an ideal task for me, as an engineer to write the test procedures for instrumentation. For the instrument people there at N Reactor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And which company was that, for then? Which contractor that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Phew. UNC. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: My mind isn't very good as far as old stuff because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: That's good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I just remember the stuff—lucky to remember the stuff today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: One of the events--sort of big events in this period--President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Where you working at-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Kennedy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. President Kennedy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were you on-site? Did you see him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I was wondering if you could talk about that at all and describe your memory of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I just remember that he was here and I saw him. That's about all I remember about it. Yeah. That was quite an event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Do you remember anything about the day at all, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, everybody was just really happy and pleased that he came. He was pretty well loved, you know--as a man. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I wonder--you mentioned earlier--some of the security at Hanford and obviously it was a place that emphasized security, secrecy. Did that--in what ways did that impact your work at all? The sort of focus on security or secrecy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I don't know how far you want to digress from—wherever I want to go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Wherever you want to go, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well talking about security brings up something that I thought I'd mention. And that is after I got to work there at GE for a while, and talking with regional monitoring people, and stuff like that. They got to know me, and I got to know them, and they found out that I was interested in old cars—antique cars. So one of them told me about--there's an old Chevrolet cab convertible out there in the boonies. Somewhere between H Area and F Area. And I said, oh really? And I thought the guy was just blowing wind maybe. I didn't really believe him at the time. But then I got still interested. I got to talking to him and maybe another monitoring guy, and it sounded like there really was one out there. So I looked into it further and I thought, well if there is, how do I get it? How can I get it? So I talked to Purchasing and Purchasing says, well you'll have to bid on it. And I said, can I bit on it? And if so, I don't even know if I can find it. I said, is there a minimum that I can bid for it? No, no minimum. Just fill out the papers. So I bid a minimum of $25. And I got a security clearance to go off the road. Because this was just out in the boonies. No roads, just out in the sage brush to look for it. Somewhere between H Area and Rattlesnake. So I asked a friend of mine who had a Jeep if he'd go out there with me. And we used his Jeep and we hooked a trailer behind, and off we went. We got permission to go out there. And we drove around quite a bit. And we finally found it. And we winched it on. And then I thought, well now I wonder if I can get a title for this thing from the state? [LAUGHTER] But being the contract from the government, and that I bought it--the state didn't hesitate at all. And I got a title for it. And this is one of the originals from an old homestead out there. You could still see some remains of the homestead. Of course the government went and destroyed everything. And most of the automobiles--I don't know if you know this--but most of the automobiles that were out there, the government made a special attempt to destroy all the engines. They took sledgehammers and busted the engines up. They made special attempts to--so the automobiles would never be used again. I don't know why, but that's what they did. This one somehow escaped. And the engine was still in it. But the head was off of it. But it was still restorable. And I have not restored it yet, after all these years. But now comes a time when I'm trying to get somebody interested in it. And if so, restore it and give it to him. Because I don't have that many years left. I'm hoping that somebody might help me a little bit financially to do it. And I would then donate it to whoever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: But you still have it after all these years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I still have it. Yup. It's been in the garage for all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. That's interesting that it was a car from one of the old town sites—old home sites there that was still sitting out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I had not heard that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. I brought it up because it is a very rare incident. And I think I'm probably the one and only that has done something like this. At least maybe the first one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And I'm also the first one, like I say, to put a security system out here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. So thinking back on your years working at Hanford, what were--and maybe you've already talked about this--what were the most challenging aspects of your work there and the most rewarding parts of working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, most challenging? Hmm. Oh, you know, it was all challenging, really. [LAUGHTER] It was very different. The instrumentation—when I first went out there, I was not a technician. I was a trainee--I had to be a trainee first. And my technician was not all that—didn't seem like he was there that long either. He didn't know all that much either, I don't think. [LAUGHTER] And I can remember one incident, they had an instrument that had mercury in it. We had to be careful how you calibrated it. And it wasn't my fault, because I was just a trainee. But my technician blew the mercury out. It went all over the control room which was not a big--nobody really appreciated that too much. That was challenging. That was kind of challenging. You had to be very careful, as an instrument person, with what you did. And if you worked in the control room, like in--what's the first--the reactor they're making a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: B Reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: B Reactor. If you worked back there at the panel gauges, you had to be very carefully that you didn't bump something, because they were very sensitive. Any movement, jar or something--and you could trip the reactor while the reactor was up. And you had to calibrate some of those things while the reactor was up. You actually had a lot of responsibility there. If you knocked the reactor down--and you could--you didn't hear too many good comments. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. How about the most rewarding part of your work in Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, when I—I don't know. There was a lot of rewarding things. When I came back to work again after a 12 year hiatus, so to speak, they closed N Reactor down, and I had to find another job. There weren't that many jobs available at PUREX because there was a lot of people looking. PUREX had a job for a project engineer job. And I interviewed for it and I said, well I'd kind of like this. But I don't think I'm qualified. I said, I'd like to have it, but I'll be honest with you, I don't think I'm qualified. Because I don't have a degree. A chemical degree is what you should have had for that job. But down the senior engineer that was doing the hiring--he called me and he said, Lee, you've got the job if you want it. So I thought, what the heck, I'll try it, you know? [LAUGHTER] But I was able to find the niche there where I was needed. And it just so happened they were replacing all the electrical main panels, you know--and everything like that. So I was then the project engineer for doing that. And the people from Kaiser, who actually came out and did tests and everything--I had to approve everything that they wrote up. And from the PUREX standpoint to see if it was safe, and so on, and so forth. That was rewarding. It was a challenging job. And then from there, I went to Kaiser. And there I got a job writing procedures for electrical code violations. So I had to write procedures to correct all—bring all the stuff up to code. This was a little bit out of my element, because I was an instrument technician. But I just got the code book out and learned quick. And that was rewarding, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I wanted to go back to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I wore a lot different hats out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, right. I want to go back to almost sort of first question I asked you. You said you came from Minnesota and you'd heard these sort of stories of Washington State, or whatever. What were you doing in Minnesota before you came here? And how much--what did you know about the Hanford site itself? Did you know what was being done at the Hanford site, and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I guess I should have known more. I really didn't know anything about it, particularly. I was just young, I guess. The recruiter came through and it sounded good. The money sounded good. And some of my--I went to Dunwoody Institute there. That's where I hired out from in Minneapolis. And some of the other students also hired in with GE. So I thought it probably was a good thing to do to start out. Good experience. That's actually what I trained for there at Dunwoody was instrumentation. I went there--I tried to go to college, but I didn't have any money really to support myself. And it was even tough to support myself at Dunwoody because I didn't have no help at all. I had to work part-time every night. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Do you remember how much your first job at Hanford paid? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Oh, boy. [LAUGHTER] I don't. But there was overtime, of course. It paid pretty well. Although I've made more even before that, one time. It's a little off the subject again. But I worked on the Garrison Dam in North Dakota. And here again, I wore a different hat. Me and a buddy of mine, we hired in--we bought a brand new toolbox, put it a saw in it, hammer, and blah, blah, blah. And hired in there at the Dam as journeymen carpenters. The union--which is real strong--they'd been needing people so bad that the union official didn't check us out, which he should have. And big money. I saved the checks for a long time. We went double-time. Worked on Sundays. An astronomical amount of money. But then we got greedy because we heard they were making even more on the outlet side. I think I worked on the inlet side, and we when on the outlet side. Well, I worked there about two weeks and then union guy got wise and we had to quit. I can't remember but I it was a couple of hundred dollars a week, which was pretty good money at that time. I don't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: You talked earlier about finding the car, and being able to purchase the car, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were there any other sort of unique things that happened or things that stand out in your memory during your time working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: No, other than meeting a girlfriend out there. [LAUGHTER] I don't know. I worked in almost every area out there. I worked in all the hundred areas. I worked at PUREX. I worked in 200 Areas, 300 Areas. I worked in almost every lab in 300 Area. I worked in 325, in all of them, 329. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Of all the different places you worked, the different jobs that you had--was there one that you enjoyed the most, that was--looking back on it, you'd say it was maybe your favorite job that you had out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, all the work I did in 300 Area was very pleasing to me. And of course after that things changed a lot when they start shutting down things. I really did like N Reactor. I will say that. They were the--of all the places I worked, it was like a family. They were the friendliest, nicest bunch of people to work with. Everybody seemed to know everybody, and you know, it was very pleasant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So it's a group of people you worked with that made that so enjoyable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. Yeah, the whole N Area was just--I really hated to see that close. It was, like I say, like a family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So if you look back at your time working at Hanford, overall, how would you assess your experience working in the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well it--other than what happened to me changing jobs all the time, other than that bitterness--really my employer was the government. And they should be the ones that--I shouldn't—break in service, and all that stuff. You shouldn't have lost it like I did. I lost it when I quit. And then I went back to work there again. But that's the bitterness I have. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Which you'll probably leave out of this interview. [LAUGHTER] But other than that, it was a--I'd never tried it really. It was a wealth of experience and rewarding. Like I say, we did interesting things. Counted moon samples and it was very interesting--always. All the experiments we did, it was different. The engineers were always trying to think of something different to do. How to lower the background so that you could count very low background stuff and radiation. It was always interesting, always challenging. And then after that when the work there at 300, when I quit and went back, it wasn't fun anymore then. I mean, then things are closing down, pretty much. I closed PUREX down. I worked there and then they quit. They closed down. N Reactor closed down. And everything was closing down. That's when the fun stopped, kind of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you then obviously, at some point, the effort shifts from production to clean up. And I wondered how that impacted some of the things that you did? Was it that you saw a lot things shutting down at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, after things started shutting down, of course just overall morale went down. And the sense of purpose didn't seem to be there anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I teach a class on the Cold War. And a lot of my students that I teach were born after the Cold War ended. And obviously, you were employed at Hanford in the 1950s and 1960s--the height of the Cold War in many ways. If you were talking to someone who didn't really know much about the Cold War, or was born after it ended—how would you explain or describe Hanford during that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, let's see. That's a big question. How do I feel about it? Do I approve of how the government just took over things and ordered everybody out without any money? Reimbursement until much later? How do I feel about that? Well, I've got mixed emotions about some of that stuff. How do I feel about dropping the bomb on Hiroshima? We made the stuff and how do I feel about that? I still have probably mixed emotions about that, too. But I guess it's something we had to do. I have to accept that. One thing I will say, what went on at Hanford could never have happened in the time frame that it happened there at Hanford. How they designed and built like the PUREX Building, for instance. It's simply amazing. Outstanding workmanship and performance. It's unbelievable, almost, what happened in that short period of time. And it was a very dedicated workforce. Of course we didn't know a lot of what we were doing when we first came out here really. But we just did our work. It was interesting. And we all really were dedicated and liked our job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet? Or is there anything else about your experiences at Hanford that you'd like to talk that you haven't had the chance to talk about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Gee, I don't know. I have a son that still works out—more or less works for Hanford. And he is getting a furlough, maybe today. Because our government’s shutting down. Mixed emotions again. [LAUGHTER] As far as Hanford, like I say, it was a good experience for me. And I'm not sorry I came out here. Not sorry I went to work for Hanford. Lots of good memories. And a lot of my friends, a course though who are gone. I'm one of those hold-outs. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, just so many of my friends that hired in when I did, they're no longer around. I'm 83 right now, so. Yup, time goes fast. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Thank you. </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 Kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:41:57 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview K Area K-West Area 300 Area H Area F Area N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1960 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leroy Noga Description An account of the resource An interview with Leroy Noga conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-17: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/15/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear instruments & methods 300 Area B Reactor F Area H Area Hanford (Wash.) Hunting K Area K-West Area Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fecc318de874e02165a0adba276148544.jpg 1a405e5eb93d81a0c044840814841635 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3bab96a36faefb5efcaa973b0a007927.mp4 9752103e397f6c9c4671a80e6c1c1324 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin, and I am conducting an interview with Linda Davis on May 26th 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking to Linda Davis about her experiences growing up in Richland, and her father’s experiences coming to work on the Hanford site. So, Linda, let’s start at the beginning. Why don’t you—you were mentioning earlier, with some of those items you brought which we’ll view later—you were showing us pictures of growing up and your father’s photo when he came here. So I guess why don’t we start with your father coming here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Linda Davis: My dad had been working in Kansas on I think it was a CCC project. And it came to an end. And they were told very little. Go to Washington. They’re like, right. [LAUGHTER] But my parents had always wanted to get the heck out of Kansas, so they found that this was their escape. And it was during the Depression, so jobs were tough. My dad came out. He was supposed to be coming out with a bunch of friends, and my brother got sick, so he ended up coming out later. He had to—he hopped box cars to get here! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He rode the rails and hitchhiked. And he got here a few weeks after his friends—a couple weeks after his friends did. They all got the management positions, and he got to be Joe Blow. [LAUGHTER] But he came out in February, March of ’43. He had been working cement. They sent him out with some other guys. They drove all over the whole reservation looking for the right rocks and gravel and sand to make the cement to start pouring B Reactor footings. After he did that, he was there when they poured the footings and that was always one of his—he was always very proud that he was there when they did the footings. Briefly, he was sent over to the extrusion and he was one of the first ones to actually run the machine to extrude the plutonium. Then after a short term there, he went back to B Reactor and became a nuclear operator until he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And he was first here in a tent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They supplied these big tents with a stove in the corner. And he says those really weren’t that bad. Then they, quote, moved him to barracks. And he says, those were the pits. They had gaps in the wood. There was just one layer of wood and gaps. So you learned really early on—you woke up in the morning, you shook your head, you wiped your eyes off, because you’re either removing snow or sand. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And he says when he got here off the train, he says, there was as many people getting on the train to leave. And he says, the sands would come in and people were missing their families, and they were leaving in droves. My mom and the kids did not come until fall of ’43. There was no housing at that point in time. They went and lived in Yakima and my mom got a job and dad would commute on his long changes to Yakima to go visit the family. The rest of the time, he’d go stay in the barracks. And when he first got here with some of his friends, they had long lines for the showers. They were like, oh, we don’t want to wait in these stupid shower lines, we’re in a hurry. So him and his friends went—they’re from Kansas, streams there are shallow and warm. They went, there’s this great big river, so they ran down and jumped in the river. And jumped right back out! [LAUGHTER] He said it was so cold! They went and stood in line after that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That’s a great story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And my dad played poker and he was well known for his poker playing here. We thought he used to—was just bragging, until when he died and people were coming in and they were going, wow, was he one wicked poker player. They used to be able to play poker on the buses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, you know, an hour ride, they had these little tables they’d set up towards the back and they played poker. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He could earn almost as much money playing poker as he could working. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, that’s great. So how long was it before your mother and—so you weren’t born yet at the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: No! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So how long was it before your mother and the rest of your family were able to move to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They stayed in Yakima for about a year and a half. And then they moved—their first house was a A house on MacPherson, which was just finished and they ended up having to go to a hotel the first night, because it was freshly painted, and it made them all sick because it was still wet. [LAUGHTER] They were kind of unusual because they had their own furniture that they had brought from Kansas. Most people came and they had—everybody had the same bed, dresser, everything was supplied. But they had a lot of their own furniture that they brought from Kansas. So they would have been here—let’s see, he came out in ’43, ’44—early ’45 is when they got their first house-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: --in the Tri-Cities. During that time, Dad had commuted back and forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. And you said that your mom was working in Yakima. What kind of work was she doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: She was a receptionist in a doctor’s office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: She was telling me—oh, just a few years ago, she was telling me that she was working, and people had been displaced and all the, quote, riffraff was coming in, and people looked really down on the people like them who were coming in. She was working in a doctor’s office, so nobody really thought about it, so they were a lot of times just talking, and some ladies got real snippy about, well, you got all this riffraff coming in and these lowlifes and stuff. And she just looked up and said, oh, well I’m one of those. [LAUGHTER] But they were really looked down on, because people didn’t know why they had been displaced. And they didn’t know why all these people were coming from all over the country. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, because they hadn’t— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Nobody was allowed to know anything. So there was a lot of anger, and a lot of looking down their noses at people that had come into the Hanford Project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Do you think maybe some class conflict? Or maybe people they had perceived as Dust Bowl type people--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Dust Bowl type people, because a lot of them came—Kansas, Oklahoma supplied a lot of the workers out here, because the word had gotten around, go to Washington, go to Washington. They didn’t know why, just go to Washington, you’ll find a job. You’ve got crummy farming, a lot of them just packed up and left. And they showed up. Then the, quote, natives of the area who had felt that they had been here for a significant amount of time really did look down on all these strangers coming in. It was—they would look like refugees to them. Because a lot of them came with homemade trailers and, literally their own tents if they couldn’t find a place to live. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And they hopped boxcars. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And they hopped boxcars to get here! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So, earlier you mentioned that your family had lived in a lot of different houses early on or kind of gone all over. So can you talk about that? Those early years of being in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: You were assigned houses by what kind of job you had and how many children you had. You could apply to get a different house. And for all sorts of different reasons—my mother liked to move, I think, because a lot of it—she always liked to move. And Dad went along with it. They lived in ranch houses, F houses, A houses—they sneakily got into an H house, which they didn’t qualify for. You couldn’t—weren’t supposed to get into any housing unless it’s written out by the government that you could. They traded with somebody who wanted something—they wanted like the A house. They were in an H house and Mom and Dad said, oh, we’d like the H. So they traded without telling the government. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Ooh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: That lasted six months. [LAUGHTER] Then they had to move again. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So the H houses were bigger then? I’m not quite up on all of the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They have a basement; they have one floor. They were probably better made. They were nicer houses than like the A. But the one people were having more kids or something. I can’t remember why they wanted to change. But Mom and Dad sneakily did it, then they sneakily had to slink out [LAUGHTER] when they were told they had to leave. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. Yeah, one thing I’ve heard around here is that basements in those early years were pretty rare. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: What basements you had, like in the A houses, B houses, F houses, they were dirt. I’ve been in them when they hadn’t been changed yet. It’s basically a dirt floor, you walk down the stairs and then you’re there. Then there’s like this raised cement block area. Well, that’s where they’d dump the coal into. They would come with these trucks and dump the coal in. You just had enough room to go down there and shovel coal. They were pretty gross. [LAUGHTER] But I remember Mom and Dad, though, said everything was supplied. You had no utilities, they brought your coal—you had to call and ask for a lightbulb to be changed. You were not allowed to do it yourself. [LAUGHTER] Totally government. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, that’s a lot like here. You have to put in a facilities request to do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, well, they had to—she goes, a lightbulb? Like, we can’t change your own? Oh, no. But she says they were really Johnny-on-the-spot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah. They’d call and say, you know, lightbulb in the bathroom burned out. Oh! We’ll be right there! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, so it would have been a whole department of people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: There was a whole department of people who were doing that. If you were not working at Hanford or what they called support, like supplying the oil and changing the lightbulbs, a grocery store, pharmacist or something, you were not allowed to live here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And if you were, like, married and your husband—one of their friends that happened—dropped dead of a heart attack, she was given 48 hours to leave with her kids. They were kind of severe at times. But it was super safe. Kids could run and play. If your kid got in trouble, you could lose your job. That was—I remember my dad always holding that over my brothers. [LAUGHTER] If you get in trouble, I can lose my job and we’ll have to leave. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So kids were good; they didn’t have a choice. If you had a kid who became a juvenile delinquent, then you could lose your job and given 24 hours to leave town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Did you know of any incidences of that happening? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: My parents talked about it, but I didn’t have names or—you know. Just somebody that they knew, their kids had been a real pain—and he ended up I think keeping his job, but he had to move to Kennewick. He couldn’t stay in government. He managed to beg and plead and keep his job, but he had to leave town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So they were not only kind of controlled the work site, but they also really controlled the fabric of the community as well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: To the point where they had—after leaving Richland, and living elsewhere and now in Kennewick, you realize the layers are like military layers. And it’s taken a long time for that to kind of break down. You had your echelons, just like in the military. They even went so far as to tell people, you are in this job and you’re in this job, and you’re not supposed to communicate. They may have grown up together in some Podunk place in the Midwest, known each other since childhood, but, all of the sudden, oh, you’re not supposed to talk to each other? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, so kind of like that difference between commissioned officers— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And a non-com. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Non-com. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah. Oh, you’re more of a commissioned, you’re too high up and you can’t talk to the lower echelon. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, scientists don’t talk to janitors and so forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That’s really interesting. Did your mom work after— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yes, she worked at Dr. Ellner’s office, urologist here in town. She worked there for—I don’t know—from the time I was about nine, eight—I guess I was about eight when she started working there. So that would have been ’62. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. And so then you would be born in ’54. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: ’54. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Part of that big baby boom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. And how many siblings do you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Three. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. And were any of them—did any of them move to Richland from—so your parents came, your father came out in ’43, and then your family came out in the fall. When were your siblings born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They were born all in Kansas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And so they were born in ’37, ’40, and ’41. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So you’re the real baby of the bunch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, yeah. I was the surprise. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Ah. I think we all are in some way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, I was—my mom was 41, so yeah, I was a shock. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, yeah, that is quite a surprise. So tell me—then you would have been born then when Richland was still a government town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So tell me about growing up, like maybe from your earliest memories on. What was it like to—do you have any early memories of before—while Richland was still a government town? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, I have a lot of memories from really early. My brother and I seem to both have the brains from early, early. The other two go, I don’t remember anything then. [LAUGHTER] They don’t really remember anything until after they’re five! One of the things that always struck me was, as a kid, driving through town and they had that asbestos siding that you had a green house or this dark reddish house. They all kind of looked the same. I know my sister one time accidentally ended up in the wrong house after school. And one of Mom’s best friends came in and found some guy sleeping in her bed. He was on leave from the Army and he had gotten in the wrong house. But they all looked the same. And people had the same furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So my sister went in and says, like, the living room furniture, I think, was all the same. And she says, she came home, put her papers down and then went out and played. Then came back later and went, Mom keeps moving the furniture! [LAUGHTER] She says she has no idea which house she went into. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, they had basically—I remember the green and the red. There might have been—and then there was some blue. And then they had like a cream color with them. So like the A houses would have been light colored on the top and then the red on the bottom. Or cream and—there was like three choices. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. It’s like the Model T. You can get it in black or black. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right. Yeah, this was—and you didn’t have a choice what color it was. And I guess when they first moved in, besides the paint being wet, they literally handed them a ten-pound bag of grass seed and said, plant your yard! Have fun! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. That’s great. So, how about any memories that stand out from your early childhood or early life in Richland? I remember, earlier you mentioned that before we started taping, that your family had bought one of the first commercially available houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Spec home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Spec home. What year was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: 1960. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay, so you would have been about six years old then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right. That was just before I was six, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And what was that like, to be in one of these? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: You— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: New, new, new homes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Because of the class thing going on, I was not considered—and then shortly after they started building this North Richland area—I always felt like I didn’t fit in. I didn’t fit in with the kids in the, quote, government houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: My house was basically a ranch house. We had hardwood floors instead of tiles. And we had a one-car garage, ooh, ahh. [LAUGHTER] But it really wasn’t—it was just a three-bedroom ranch. One bathroom and a one-car garage. And then all the scientists and the people making more money and the doctors started building into North Richland. And I didn’t fit in with them, either, because they went, oh, you’re in that little house. It was kind of like feeling like you didn’t fit in anywhere. Because I wasn’t in a government house, and a lot of the government houses were way bigger than the house we were in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Huh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But I remember saying—one of the first memories in that house was—they’d moved us in—oh, they’d never allow it nowadays. Moved us in, we had no water. So the firemen came and hooked up to a fire hydrant about a block and a half away. [LAUGHTER] And then it ran into a garden hose, and it was February, and like below zero. So you always had to have water running in the bathtub to keep the little garden house. And if froze up, all the neighbors would come out and jump up and down on it, breaking the ice up. But nowadays you wouldn’t be able to move into a house without full running water. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, right. Wow. That’s fabulous. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And then when we were first there—we were the very first ones sold. The others were having open houses. And we’d be sitting there having like a family get-together, and people start walking in our house. Oh, this one’s not open! No. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And then that of course touched off a boom, though, right, in house construction in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right. North Richland, I remember we used to sit at our kitchen table and look out and watch all the houses going up, and here are all the—for years, you could see new houses and hear hammering every morning. North Richland just really took off because everybody started building their own. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: A lot of people went ahead and bought their original house from the government, but my parents—I don’t know, they fell—my dad fell in love with this house. My mother hated it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: How long did they live at that house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: We lived there 13 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. So they really do like to move around a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: That’s like mom’s record, yeah. Her last move was with us and she had to live with us ten years without moving before she died. [LAUGHTER] But generally, about—when my siblings were growing up, they got used to moving every six months to a year and a half. And they went to every single school in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. Well, I guess they know a pretty big cross-section of the community, then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They were always—when you talk to different people, they’re like, oh yeah, so-and-so, and I go, oh yeah, my parents were their neighbors. And somebody else would say, oh yeah, they were their neighbors, too. Like Garmo who owned one of the grocery stores. All these different people, they were their neighbors at some point in time. Probably Johnson, who was the photographer for the area. He was a good friend and I’m still in recent contact with his daughter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But pretty much, if you lived in Richland for any length of time, my parents were your neighbor at some point. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That’s great. So when did your father retire from Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I was married, so—when did he retire? I got married in ’74, so I’m trying to remember exactly. ’75 or ’76, something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, wow, so he was on—did he have any gaps in employment, or did he work onsite since 1943? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He worked onsite that whole time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, and so what did— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Except for the six-week strike they had. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, well tell me about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I don’t even remember what it was about. I was in junior high. They had a strike which my dad was not in favor of, but he wouldn’t break union line. So he was on strike. During that time, he says, oh well, I’ll make the best of it, so he built a family room onto our house. [LAUGHTER] And got hooked on soap operas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He used to make fun of Mom wanting to watch her soap opera, and then when he went back to work, he’d come home from work and go, what happened with—[LAUGHTER] But they were only on strike for like six weeks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And do you remember what the strike was about at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I don’t remember what it was about. Like I say, it was in junior high. It was— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Do you think you can give me kind of a date range so we could try to find something about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: That would have been in the late ‘60s? Somewhere in—yeah. It wasn’t a very long strike, but it was the first one that I know of that they had. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Was that site wide, do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, it was site wide. I wish I remembered what it was, but in junior high you don’t pay attention to stuff like that. Yeah, Dad’s on strike, well, so is everybody else’s dad, so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: All you know is that he’s camped out on the couch watching soap operas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: No, he was busy building the family room. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He literally put a whole addition on the back of the house. So that’s what he was doing during his six weeks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Still worked. So you mentioned that he had been kind of a construction guy and then had worked at the separation plant, right, and then worked in the B Reactor. So what other jobs did he have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He went from B Reactor, when they closed it down, then he went to K. And then he kept saying, oh, I sure hope they don’t ever send me to N. That’s where he ended up. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He was always—he liked his B Reactor. Just the way the others were set up and they were different, he liked his B Reactor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: He got comfortable— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But he ended up at N Reactor anyway. That’s where he retired from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, wow. And what did he do at— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: He was a reactor operator. He was—yeah, from after construction, he was a reactor operator. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So it seems like a really big career jump, from construction to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, but they didn’t—nobody knew what they were doing exactly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So it’s learn-as-you-go. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: My dad—I remember him—it was really neat to go on the B Reactor tour, because it was probably the 70s before he ever even talked about what it looked like or anything. I never knew what it looked like. But he started—in the 70s was able to start feeling comfortable—I mean, it wasn’t classified or anything then. But the guys had just been used to not talking about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Well, yeah, I mean secrecy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But he started describing the panels and stuff. And there was this office behind him, and he says—during World War II—he says, the crazy Italian in the silk suits sat back there. And then he’d go get crapped up, is when they’d get contaminated and they’d have to take his silk suits away and burn them. I didn’t realize it until after Dad was gone, when he was talking about the crazy Italian in the silk suits, that was Fermi. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Sitting behind my dad! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But he never said his name. He never said his name. Just the crazy Italian in the silk suits. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: But, of course he probably would have known his name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, during World War II, they didn’t. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So that’s how—I think they just referred to him as the crazy Italians with the silk suits. Because they literally did not know their names. He was the guy who sat back there, and he’d go into places they weren’t allowed to go to. And he wasn’t really supposed to, but he’d go in and tinker. Then they’d check him for radiation and go, eh, those clothes—I remember, one of my early memories is being in grade school and my dad getting off the bus, because everybody rode the buses to work. They were just like clockwork and super on—I mean super on time. And I remember coming out of the house, and my dad’s getting off the bus in the afternoon and—I guess I was heading to school. He’s coming down—my dad was only five-foot-six. And he’s got a pair of pants that he’s holding up around his armpits, and a shirt that’s probably was past his knees rolled up to his—and clomping along in these shoes that don’t fit. He had gotten crapped up at work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And he ended up—one of his friends who was like six-foot-six had some extra clothes. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, he’s like, you know, when you get your clothes crapped up, you lose your clothes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Even your underwear. [LAUGHTER] So he’s coming home with—[LAUGHTER] I still remember—luckily we only lived like a half block from where the bus dropped him off. But I thought, that had to be a little uncomfortable at work, walking around like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Trying to hold these. Yeah, Trawler, he was six-five, six-six. He was a tall guy, skinny. But Dad was only five-foot-six. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, that’s a great story. So there’s some—a couple of the big events that we always ask people about and one of them is Kennedy’s visit to the N Reactor in 1963. Did you—were you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Both my parents were working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: They were both working, so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: [LAUGHTER] I didn’t have any way to get there. I wanted to go, but my parents, oh, it’s going to be a big crowd. They didn’t like crowds. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So, yeah, I didn’t get to go. They were both working. So I heard about it from my friends. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Your friends who went? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, I had friends who went. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Awesome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And they still remember it, and I’m going, oh, I didn’t get to go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Ah, you were busy. So any other major—any other big events that kind of stick out at you in Richland, growing up in Richland or maybe even a little later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Ah, let’s see, what were the events? They always had their fire parade, their fire prevention parades. That was when you were a kid and you got to decorate your bike and ride down the road. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: G Way, and they had—when I was really little, there was like Frontier Days or some other parade that we had. And then one of the big thrills was in the spring, they would bring in, quote, well, we’d call them travel trailers now, but they were the early mobile homes that were like eight-foot-wide and 12 feet long. And they’d set them up in the Uptown Richland parking lot. You’d go look through them and go, oh, aren’t these cool. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: They brought them up for sale? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, you know how they do car shows now in parking lots? Well, they’d bring these little mobile—[LAUGHTER] little dinky mobile homes. Which nowadays, I says, my fifth wheel’s bigger [LAUGHTER] than these, quote, homes that you’re supposed to live in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: I could imagine for some of the people who had been here in the early days that those might have given them some flashbacks to the trailer camps or— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, my parents didn’t live in the trailer camps, but they had a lot of friends who did. And one of my best friends, her parents had built—they had no place to live, so they built their own trailer and lived down at the Y. It was a homemade, and it was really little with three kids. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. That’s amazing. So did you end up staying in Richland, then—did you ever move out of the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: We went to the Chicago area, and we were gone—I didn’t leave until I got married. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: My husband went to Pullman for a year and then we went to Chicago. We were gone about nine years and then came back and raised our kids here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. And so what brought you back to the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Family. My parents were here, my dad’s health was failing, and I had just lost my father-in-law. So we kind of wanted the kids to get the chance to know their grandparents, because my husband’s parents were both gone. So, family. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And good memories of being growing up here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Sure, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Versus Chicago. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So, what would you—is there anything you would like future generations to know about growing up—like kind of the experience growing up in Richland, or what it would have been like to be so close to Hanford? To help them understand what that would be like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Growing up with my dad, the guys and women who worked out there, they were proud of what they did. Yes, bombs, they all agreed, the bomb is nasty. But in the long run it probably saved millions of lives on both sides. Because Japan was willing to fight ‘til the last man, which would have been millions of more lives lost. And if they would have gotten the bomb first, we’d be speaking Japanese. [LAUGHTER] I think there’s an overall pride—and my husband and I were just talking about this last year, that what was accomplished at Hanford would never be able to be done today. Back then, the old—they had all the signs, loose lips sink ships. My husband says, well, it’d been sunk long—they couldn’t have even gotten the first thing done before it would have been out in the open. Nowadays I don’t think they could pull it off. And people knew they weren’t supposed to talk about it. My dad—my mom said when they were living in Yakima, my dad, he had read about the reactor—splitting the atom in the Collier’s magazine before the war. They were going to go get the magazine and look it up. They never got around to it. Found out if you asked about that magazine, you were fired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So they learned not to say anything. They handed some uranium around and my dad by the weight, he said, it wasn’t very big but he knew by the weight what it was. And he started to say something, and his boss says, don’t. And later he says if you would’ve said it, I would’ve had to have fired you on the spot. I mean, you just knew that if you said anything—so he whispered it to my mom one night, under—they were sure that there were microphones everywhere. So even though they were living in Yakima, he would put a pillow over them. And he says, I think we’re making the bomb. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And my mom kind of went, pfft. Sure you are. [LAUGHTER] And then my mom didn’t know—said they didn’t really know what it was until my brother came home from school and all the kids and everybody was going, we dropped the bomb, we dropped the bomb. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But I think there’s a pride in what they did. It was very secretive and when you realize that everybody was doing their little part, and they didn’t know what the other parts were. I mean, it’d be like trying to tell somebody to put a car together. Here, you have this screw, put it somewhere—and only that one. And you don’t really know what’s going on. It was really amazing what they pulled off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And I think they—all the men and women who worked out there were really proud of what they did. And I think it went on to their families to feel proud of what they did. Yeah, the bomb’s not a nice thing, but where we would have been without it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. What about later in the Cold War, after, and all the other things that were produced—all the other bombs that were produced? Do you think that added or ever shifted and change, or—especially in the late 60s with the protests? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, in the ‘60s, my dad used to get to work with Dixy Lee Ray periodically and they’d sit and talk. And he always kept saying, you know, we’ve kept it so quiet and we keep it so hush-hush. He says, we’re past that point now, we need to educate people on nuclear power and get away from the—people, and I still talk to people, especially not from around here, when you’re in other states, they cannot separate power from bomb. To them, it’s all one thing. There is no power, it’s just a bomb. And it’s like, no, you can have nuclear power and not have a bomb. And he kept saying, we need to educate—and I remember learning stuff about it in school here. Cousins and stuff back east, they never learned anything about it. They knew nothing about nuclear power, nuclear fission—nothing. [LAUGHTER] I think the sad part is that they didn’t do more educating, they just—they lived too long in that shroud of secrecy, and didn’t spread the knowledge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. So you think, maybe it was—even though everybody knew after ’45 what was—and that they were continuing to produced, there was maybe a missed opportunity there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And throughout the ‘50s it was still—you didn’t talk about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, the fear, the specter of international communism. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right, even though war was over with the bombs, everybody knows about it, it still was a hush-hush. Yeah, I think they missed an opportunity on education. And people just grew up fearing it and not understanding anything about—hey, this could be a decent power source. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Taking Chernobyl out as a factor. [LAGUHTER] That was a poorly designed— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: There’s also Three Mile and other—certainly when a lot of people on the East Coast found about nuclear power first— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, they learned about it when it wasn’t—sometimes it was a poor design to start with. Well, when we lived in Chicago, there’s the Indiana Dunes. They were trying to build one on the Dunes. They didn’t even have any bedrock to sink it into. And we’re going, you know, they’re dunes? They kind of like, don’t stay put? [LAUGHTER] When we left there, they were still trying to do it. And we’re like, that doesn’t even make sense. So then there was a lot of stupid mistakes, too, that—yeah, you got to think about all the safety part. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. But it seems kind of hard sometimes to separate the secrecy even from the—there’s so much [INAUDIBLE]. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Do you know, through even the mid ‘60s there was still tremendous secrecy. Mid and late ‘60s. You still, living here, felt like, you know, it was hush-hush. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: But I imagine with the government owning the town until the late ‘50s that certainly you would keep that element of—that kind of vibe alive. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, and pretty much the same people who were here when the government released the town—when I graduated from high school, what, were there 9,000 people in Richland? That was in ’72. So a good chunk of those people were ones who were still here from World War II. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, and you lived in Richland the whole time, from when you were growing up, when you were born. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So did you ever go to the other two cities much? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, yeah! Downtown Pasco was one of the best places to shop! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, it had the classy stores! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, yeah. It was a major trek, but you’d go to downtown Pasco to go shopping. Well, that was a big day shopping, because they had the fancier ladies’ stores, they had shoe stores, they had the pet shop! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And they had a big drug store, and furniture stores and you could spend a whole day in, quote, Downtown Pasco! [LAUGHTER] That was a classy place to go. And then the old downtown Kennewick was—that was more functional. It had Penney’s and Sears and stuff, you know. Not Sears—what was it? I can’t remember the name of the store. But when you needed fireplace stuff or a stove or something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So like a Woolworth’s or something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, but there were several stores. And there was the hardware store that’s still there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Kennewick Hardware is still there. It was there when I was little. I think one of the big things you remember is like going there in three feet of snow because our stove had caught fire. We had to buy a new stove. Back then you could leave your kid in the car, and I was tired of going in and out of stores, and sitting there in the car. I was probably about four. Mom was just inside, you know, ordering a stove and we got a chinook. Within like the time that they took them to order their stove and come out, I watched the snow leave. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Totally fascinating. It was gurgling and stuff, but wow. That’s one thing about this area, you get chinooks. When you talk about it in Chicago, they go, huh? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s really interesting. Did you have any friends from the other cities, or did you mostly— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: My parents’ best friends moved to Kennewick, which was my sister’s best friend—it started out with my sister’s best friend who they lived kitty-corner from us when I was born, and then our parents met and became best friends, and then her younger sister and I are best friends, and we’re each other’s kids’ godparents. But they—when I was about three or four, they moved to Kennewick to a new house. [LAUGHTER] And then he commuted. He had to drive out to work because he couldn’t—the buses didn’t go to Kennewick; they were only in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So there was still a lot of inducement, then, to stay in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, you didn’t have to get that second car, because you’d just walk—most of the guys didn’t walk more than a block or two to get to the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I mean, these buses were everywhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, at the project offices, we have a map—I think it’s from the very early ‘80s but even then they were still running buses, and yeah, they’d go all— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They go everywhere and nobody walked more than two blocks from their house to a bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That’s [INAUDIBLE]. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So you only had to have one car. Even when my mom was working, she got the car to go to work and Dad rode the bus. Wasn’t any problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. I bet that would help instill a certain sense of camaraderie, because you’d ride the bus with these guys, and it’s not like today when you get in a car and you’re kind of in this bubble—you have a radio, but you’re kind of in a bubble. Whereas in a bus, everyday, you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Well, we lived there, where—the change between the government town and the newer part of town. So you had people like Dad—you’ve got nuclear operators, you had janitors and you had the scientists, all on the same bus. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I mean, everybody rode the bus. When the bus would come, there’d always be five or six guys standing out down there. And a bunch would get off and a bunch would get on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: So after the changeover, it was still the site that operated all the buses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Did they have to pay for that, or was that just a perk? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: That was just—yeah, they just paid for it. I mean, the government paid for it—nobody else could ride the buses, only the workers and they only went to and from work. They weren’t for like the families to go shopping or anything. It was just for the workers. And, yeah, they just got on the buses and they knew they were going to be there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: When did bus service start in the area for other people living in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: It had to have been after—as soon as they started building houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Because these guys had to get to work— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. Oh, no, sorry— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And most people back then, you had tire vouchers and stuff—you couldn’t like get tires overnight. You couldn’t even get bananas without a doctor’s prescription. [LAUGHTER] My siblings were skinny, so Mom always ended up with a prescription for bananas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, they had to write doctor’s prescriptions. So getting a second car wasn’t even really an option. So they started the bus service really early, just getting these guys out to work as they started building the home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. So you brought in some documents and things. Would you like to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Where’d we put them? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: I think it’d be really interesting to get those on video and to have you talk about some of those. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: All right. They’re not super exciting. This is my dad’s birth certificate. The City of Miller which never was officially a city, in Lyon, Kansas. My father’s records were in the courthouse along with three generations of family records, and it burned down when he was about seven. So he had no birth certificate. And not too long after he started working here, they asked for his birth certificate—that he needed to get it. And he says, I don’t have one. So this is his newer birth certificate that they issued in May of ’42. He came in February so to May he had to get it. They sent an FBI agent out who interviewed his father, his uncle who raised him—his mother died when he was born so his uncle raised him—and his aunt. And they also used an insurance policy that was issued when he was 20 to verify that he was him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So not everybody has all these affidavits and stuff at the bottom of their birth certificate, but this was from the FBI being able to verify. My great aunt was like, that was the weirdest thing. [LAUGHTER] Because back there, you just don’t have government people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. So they would have been out to the small town in Kansas, then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Out in the middle of nowhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: To ask questions about her nephew. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: That was one thing growing up in Richland. You were so used to the FBI coming to your door at least once a month, because everybody had different cycles for their clearances. They would always come to your door and ask, are they part of your—do they drink, do they do that? We talked to them all the time. It was never any big deal, because always somebody in your neighborhood was renewing their certification—their clearance. When I lived in Chicago, they came about somebody who was going to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority. It was my neighbor. My neighbors all slammed the door in their face. I talked to the guy, I opened the door, and I go, oh, yeah! It was security clearance. He goes, you’re the first one who’d talk to me. [LAUGHTER] I says, did it all the time when I was growing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But it scares a lot of people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But I think they thought it was a little—because the war’s going on, they don’t know what’s going on and here’s these FBI people wanting to know about my dad. I think they’re going, what’s he doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, is he a spy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, did he get in trouble? And they’re not allowed to tell them anything. So they thought it was very, very strange when these suited men showed up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That’s great, that’s a great story. And it’s great to have the documentation here to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: You’ve already seen a million flood pictures. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Well, that’s still a pretty—very scarring event for a lot of people, I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, this was the flood of ’48. It came within a few blocks of where my parents were living at the time. Don’t ask which street that was back then, because they moved so much. But this was just a family picture of the Flood of ’48 that was so devastating. And then they put the dyke in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Here is—well, this one’s tiny. This is just a picture of any summer day in Richland. Everybody had kids. Most the families were young, so there was lots of kids. It was just—even when I was growing up was the same way in the ‘60s. There was kids everywhere. Riding bikes and running between houses, and you came in when the street lights came on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And I imagine not a lot of elderly people in Richland, right? And so that must have—because you would have had grandparents, but they would have been far away, or they wouldn’t be living in town. Whereas in Kennewick and Pasco people might have more extended families living near them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Right. My grandmother came here to live with Mom and Dad not too long before she died. But, yeah, grandparents—if you were retired you couldn’t live in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: If you were not working for Hanford, you didn’t live there. So, yeah, there weren’t old people and most of the construction workers who came were young and all had young families. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So there were kids pouring out of every house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So this is—how many kids are in just—this is Mom and Dad’s front yard. And the kids played ball together, they ran and played tag. There were no fences, so all the backs of the yards were like one big yard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. And probably still not a lot of trees at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Not really. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And when—can we look at this photo on the back? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: This was 1948. So that’s only three years after the war. So, yeah, the trees are still—if you look around, you don’t see any trees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And here’s another one. This one would be—let’s see. This’d be ’46. No trees. There’s a bush. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And this is one of your sisters? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: This is my sister. Yeah. First day of kindergarten. But what I brought it for was the A house. See, they had the dark color on top—this one, I’m guessing, is probably the red one. And then the cream. They were all like that, they were all bicolored. We had cream and then one of the other three choices. You had green, red, and blue. That was it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: The government supplied the paint. This is the house that I grew up in on Newcomer. It was the first spec house sold. We’re still getting our water lines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And my dog, Tippy. This isn’t the garage anymore; somebody’s changed it out. But we had—it was really fresh and new. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And this was 1960? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: ’60. Yeah, February of ’60 is when we moved in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Mom says January of ‘60. I always think it was February but oh well. Halfway through kindergarten, I had to change schools. My siblings went, so? Because they had to change schools all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, not a lot of sympathy for you, I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And this is my dad getting an award for what they called the Christmas Tree, which was the front of the reactor that had lights—indicator lights on it. I don’t know if it says exactly what he—just came up, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: He’s D. D. Smith? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Most people called him D. D. or Smitty. His named was Derald. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Derald. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Derald. Like Gerald but with a D. Let’s see. Yeah, he was considered a pile operator. $185 was his award, which—like I said, that was a lot of money. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: A couple weeks’ wages, probably. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: At least two or three weeks’ worth of wages. So that was a really big thing. Yeah, something about modifying the lights or something so they were easier to read. Apparently they thought it was a good idea. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. Do you know when that was? Was that during the war? Was this— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Since my dad never looked any different over a 40- or 50-year period, I’m not sure what date is on this. What was funny is on the back, I found my friend’s dad’s name on it. [LAUGHTER] And I went, oh! I’m kind of guessing this might be the ‘50s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Early ‘60s? I’m looking at the ties. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: No, that’s good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: They had a paper that came out of the Areas. That was in that paper—the Area paper was a little fold-up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, we have a bound collection of a lot of the Hanford GE News and a lot of that. Let’s see this here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: 1944. This is my dad’s card for the International Union of Operating Engineers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And that was December of ’44. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So this is still during the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And this is the other part of the same thing, the International Union of Operating Engineers. Came out of Spokane. Got stamped; I guess for going to meetings. No, his dues, his dues and going to meetings. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Makes sense. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Whoops. This isn’t for my dad; this is for my grandmother. I need to go show Kadlec this. [LAUGHTER] My grandmother got cancer and was in Kadlec Hospital for six weeks before she died. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Here’s the total of her bill. $386.15. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: The operating room cost $8. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Anesthesia was $10. It cost more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Lab, dressings—yeah, and she was there for six weeks before she died. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Six weeks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And that’s her bill. This bill was—yeah, written on the day she died. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. And what date was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: 1946. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Oh, okay. So she moved in, then, pretty soon after the war ended? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, and she moved to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Hungate: And it’s billed through DuPont. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yup. Oh, even I—I didn’t even notice that. DuPont. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: DuPont. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: I don’t know of many people still have a bill from 1946. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: No. That’s a very interesting bill, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: What is this one? Oh, this is just really bad pictures that they took—every year they had to have their pictures renewed. [LAUGHTER] That was—that had to have been a windy day, because his hair’s sticking up all over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, well, like you said earlier, they had thousands upon thousands of men to process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, it’s like while you’re at work, and it’s just like get your picture taken, click, and you’re done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And this, on the front it says GE so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, that would have been from after GE took over. I’d say from that picture from the ‘60s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: What’s this one? Just a few little odd things I found in Mom’s—oh, just—from February of 1942, The University of Kansas School of Engineering and Architecture, Engineering Defense Training Program from—his certificate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, this is—I’m not sure exactly what they taught him, or—he never talked about this. I knew nothing about this until I found this just this last week. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow, interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So I have no story to go with this, other than the date and it’s my dad. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. So then he would have came out here very shortly after getting this, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Like I say, when they told him to come out, they didn’t tell him why or anything. Just go to this place in Washington that you’ve never heard of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, we have a job for you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And you’re going to have trouble finding it on a map, even. [LAUGHTER] This is just a—it’s got—it says N Reactor Plant Dates—Data. Just about—I think it was a reference for them when they were working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: It’s pocket size. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So I think it was just a—yeah, decontaminating, water treatment—I think it was just a little reference thing that they kept in their—on their person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And then my dad was trying to get my uncle to move out here from Kansas. [LAUGHTER] And he wrote a letter describing wages, jobs. So, trying to get down to there. Let’s see. “They want patrolmen pretty badly. The pay isn’t as much as I make by about $18 a week.” But my uncle was single, never married, so it probably wasn’t any problem to him. And he says, “However it isn’t bad. You start at $58 a week.” [LAUGHTER] It says, a week. And after 30 days, after you’ve passed that, you move up to $60 a week. And then after six months you get $62.50 a week. Yeah, they were looking for patrolmen and firemen and a lot of the other stuff. And he asked—my uncle was in World War Two, and he asked if he had any training in anything specific that might be used out here. But my uncle stayed back in Kansas and eventually became a—because of being ex-military, he became a postman. Not a postman, a postmaster. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: A postmaster in a little town. But he never did come out. I just thought the pricing—just thought it was interesting, because 58 bucks a week. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: That would have been—that’s a good chunk of money back then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: For my uncle, for what he was making in Kansas it would have been a whole lot of money. [INAUDIBLE] Oh, meals at the cafeteria average $0.75. It’s just littered with little stuff like that. He was trying to convince my uncle to move back out here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: What’s this? Oh. This was in a Kansas City Times in 1947. “Growing Town of Atom Plant Workers Is a Distinctive Sort of Community.” </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Mm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: So, that was kind of—you know. This is what, when people released—after the war’s over, people are starting to hear, now, what the heck was—[LAUGHTER] going on, and how different our towns were from towns that had been around for 100 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. And that it’s completely government controlled and— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, and plants were far from town. You know, Dad would usually spend an hour on the bus going out to work, and we were in North Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yeah, but I think this is what my uncle had cut out and sent to him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Cool. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: From Kansas. And the highest birthrates in the nation. [LAUGHTER] Because everybody was young. I was part of that major boom. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s neat. That’s neat that he saved that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And my sister says—we were talking and she said, yeah, when you went to school, you stood up on the first day of school and said where you were from. Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas. When I went to school, we had all been born here. There weren’t any outsiders, I guess, because we were all born here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: But during the war, everybody stood up and said where they were from. Because everybody was from somewhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: She says, there was a few—once in a while you’d run into somebody who says, oh, I was born here. And they’re like, oh. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Yeah, oh, you’re an original! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, you’re really strange! You didn’t come from the Midwest? Because that seems to be the biggest proportion came from the Midwest. Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: And Texas, too, there was a huge—but that’s definitely where they were pulling lots of people from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: And it was mostly by word of mouth as their job tended to—go to Washington. What are we going to do? Can’t tell you. Because I don’t know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: Take this train to a place you’ve never heard of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Yup. Any other questions? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Franklin: No, I think that was great. Thank you so much for sharing. I learned a lot of things that I didn’t know about, growing up here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX253515545"> Davis: Oh, I probably—going to think of a million things driving home, I’m sure. Oh, I should have said—[LAUGHTER] </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linda Davis Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:18 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Lee Ray, Dixe Smith, Derald Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 232 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linda Davis Description An account of the resource An interview with Linda Davis conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource hose interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/26/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-26: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. B Reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F70ac0c66d17d44c6ffd2e0bff8f3fd56.JPG 759d274f2858d770022f62634d4204c9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1c015193569a3d3863bf1e37ebc9004f.mp4 dc9878daf96d5562e516329a80d1d8ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linda Davis Location The location of the interview Washington State University, Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Yup. Tom Hungate: Okay. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin, and I am conducting an interview with Linda Davis on May 26th 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking to Linda Davis about her experiences growing up in Richland, and her father’s experiences coming to work on the Hanford site. So, Linda, let’s start at the beginning. Why don’t you—you were mentioning earlier, with some of those items you brought which we’ll view later—you were showing us pictures of growing up and your father’s photo when he came here. So I guess why don’t we start with your father coming here. Linda Davis: My dad had been working in Kansas on I think it was a CCC project. And it came to an end. And they were told very little. Go to Washington. They’re like, right. [LAUGHTER] But my parents had always wanted to get the heck out of Kansas, so they found that this was their escape. And it was during the Depression, so jobs were tough. My dad came out. He was supposed to be coming out with a bunch of friends, and my brother got sick, so he ended up coming out later. He had to—he hopped box cars to get here! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow! Davis: He rode the rails and hitchhiked. And he got here a few weeks after his friends—a couple weeks after his friends did. They all got the management positions, and he got to be Joe Blow. [LAUGHTER] But he came out in February, March of ’43. He had been working cement. They sent him out with some other guys. They drove all over the whole reservation looking for the right rocks and gravel and sand to make the cement to start pouring B Reactor footings. After he did that, he was there when they poured the footings and that was always one of his—he was always very proud that he was there when they did the footings. Briefly, he was sent over to the extrusion and he was one of the first ones to actually run the machine to extrude the plutonium. Then after a short term there, he went back to B Reactor and became a nuclear operator until he retired. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And he was first here in a tent. Franklin: Okay. Davis: They supplied these big tents with a stove in the corner. And he says those really weren’t that bad. Then they, quote, moved him to barracks. And he says, those were the pits. They had gaps in the wood. There was just one layer of wood and gaps. So you learned really early on—you woke up in the morning, you shook your head, you wiped your eyes off, because you’re either removing snow or sand. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: And he says when he got here off the train, he says, there was as many people getting on the train to leave. And he says, the sands would come in and people were missing their families, and they were leaving in droves. My mom and the kids did not come until fall of ’43. There was no housing at that point in time. They went and lived in Yakima and my mom got a job and dad would commute on his long changes to Yakima to go visit the family. The rest of the time, he’d go stay in the barracks. And when he first got here with some of his friends, they had long lines for the showers. They were like, oh, we don’t want to wait in these stupid shower lines, we’re in a hurry. So him and his friends went—they’re from Kansas, streams there are shallow and warm. They went, there’s this great big river, so they ran down and jumped in the river. And jumped right back out! [LAUGHTER] He said it was so cold! They went and stood in line after that. Franklin: That’s a great story. Davis: And my dad played poker and he was well known for his poker playing here. We thought he used to—was just bragging, until when he died and people were coming in and they were going, wow, was he one wicked poker player. They used to be able to play poker on the buses. Franklin: Really? Davis: Yeah, you know, an hour ride, they had these little tables they’d set up towards the back and they played poker. Franklin: Wow. Davis: He could earn almost as much money playing poker as he could working. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s great. So how long was it before your mother and—so you weren’t born yet at the time. Davis: No! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So how long was it before your mother and the rest of your family were able to move to the Tri-Cities? Davis: They stayed in Yakima for about a year and a half. And then they moved—their first house was a A house on MacPherson, which was just finished and they ended up having to go to a hotel the first night, because it was freshly painted, and it made them all sick because it was still wet. [LAUGHTER] They were kind of unusual because they had their own furniture that they had brought from Kansas. Most people came and they had—everybody had the same bed, dresser, everything was supplied. But they had a lot of their own furniture that they brought from Kansas. So they would have been here—let’s see, he came out in ’43, ’44—early ’45 is when they got their first house-- Franklin: Wow. Davis: --in the Tri-Cities. During that time, Dad had commuted back and forth. Franklin: Wow. And you said that your mom was working in Yakima. What kind of work was she doing? Davis: She was a receptionist in a doctor’s office. Franklin: Okay. Davis: She was telling me—oh, just a few years ago, she was telling me that she was working, and people had been displaced and all the, quote, riffraff was coming in, and people looked really down on the people like them who were coming in. She was working in a doctor’s office, so nobody really thought about it, so they were a lot of times just talking, and some ladies got real snippy about, well, you got all this riffraff coming in and these lowlifes and stuff. And she just looked up and said, oh, well I’m one of those. [LAUGHTER] But they were really looked down on, because people didn’t know why they had been displaced. And they didn’t know why all these people were coming from all over the country. Franklin: Right, because they hadn’t— Davis: Nobody was allowed to know anything. So there was a lot of anger, and a lot of looking down their noses at people that had come into the Hanford Project. Franklin: Do you think maybe some class conflict? Or maybe people they had perceived as Dust Bowl type people--? Davis: Dust Bowl type people, because a lot of them came—Kansas, Oklahoma supplied a lot of the workers out here, because the word had gotten around, go to Washington, go to Washington. They didn’t know why, just go to Washington, you’ll find a job. You’ve got crummy farming, a lot of them just packed up and left. And they showed up. Then the, quote, natives of the area who had felt that they had been here for a significant amount of time really did look down on all these strangers coming in. It was—they would look like refugees to them. Because a lot of them came with homemade trailers and, literally their own tents if they couldn’t find a place to live. Franklin: And they hopped boxcars. Davis: And they hopped boxcars to get here! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. So, earlier you mentioned that your family had lived in a lot of different houses early on or kind of gone all over. So can you talk about that? Those early years of being in Richland. Davis: You were assigned houses by what kind of job you had and how many children you had. You could apply to get a different house. And for all sorts of different reasons—my mother liked to move, I think, because a lot of it—she always liked to move. And Dad went along with it. They lived in ranch houses, F houses, A houses—they sneakily got into an H house, which they didn’t qualify for. You couldn’t—weren’t supposed to get into any housing unless it’s written out by the government that you could. They traded with somebody who wanted something—they wanted like the A house. They were in an H house and Mom and Dad said, oh, we’d like the H. So they traded without telling the government. Franklin: Ooh. Davis: That lasted six months. [LAUGHTER] Then they had to move again. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So the H houses were bigger then? I’m not quite up on all of the— Davis: They have a basement; they have one floor. They were probably better made. They were nicer houses than like the A. But the one people were having more kids or something. I can’t remember why they wanted to change. But Mom and Dad sneakily did it, then they sneakily had to slink out [LAUGHTER] when they were told they had to leave. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, one thing I’ve heard around here is that basements in those early years were pretty rare. Davis: What basements you had, like in the A houses, B houses, F houses, they were dirt. I’ve been in them when they hadn’t been changed yet. It’s basically a dirt floor, you walk down the stairs and then you’re there. Then there’s like this raised cement block area. Well, that’s where they’d dump the coal into. They would come with these trucks and dump the coal in. You just had enough room to go down there and shovel coal. They were pretty gross. [LAUGHTER] But I remember Mom and Dad, though, said everything was supplied. You had no utilities, they brought your coal—you had to call and ask for a lightbulb to be changed. You were not allowed to do it yourself. [LAUGHTER] Totally government. Franklin: Yeah, that’s a lot like here. You have to put in a facilities request to do that. Davis: Yeah, well, they had to—she goes, a lightbulb? Like, we can’t change your own? Oh, no. But she says they were really Johnny-on-the-spot. Franklin: Really? Davis: Yeah. They’d call and say, you know, lightbulb in the bathroom burned out. Oh! We’ll be right there! Franklin: Wow, so it would have been a whole department of people. Davis: There was a whole department of people who were doing that. If you were not working at Hanford or what they called support, like supplying the oil and changing the lightbulbs, a grocery store, pharmacist or something, you were not allowed to live here. Franklin: Right. Davis: And if you were, like, married and your husband—one of their friends that happened—dropped dead of a heart attack, she was given 48 hours to leave with her kids. They were kind of severe at times. But it was super safe. Kids could run and play. If your kid got in trouble, you could lose your job. That was—I remember my dad always holding that over my brothers. [LAUGHTER] If you get in trouble, I can lose my job and we’ll have to leave. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So kids were good; they didn’t have a choice. If you had a kid who became a juvenile delinquent, then you could lose your job and given 24 hours to leave town. Franklin: Did you know of any incidences of that happening? Davis: My parents talked about it, but I didn’t have names or—you know. Just somebody that they knew, their kids had been a real pain—and he ended up I think keeping his job, but he had to move to Kennewick. He couldn’t stay in government. He managed to beg and plead and keep his job, but he had to leave town. Franklin: So they were not only kind of controlled the work site, but they also really controlled the fabric of the community as well. Davis: To the point where they had—after leaving Richland, and living elsewhere and now in Kennewick, you realize the layers are like military layers. And it’s taken a long time for that to kind of break down. You had your echelons, just like in the military. They even went so far as to tell people, you are in this job and you’re in this job, and you’re not supposed to communicate. They may have grown up together in some Podunk place in the Midwest, known each other since childhood, but, all of the sudden, oh, you’re not supposed to talk to each other? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, so kind of like that difference between commissioned officers— Davis: And a non-com. Franklin: Non-com. Davis: Yeah. Oh, you’re more of a commissioned, you’re too high up and you can’t talk to the lower echelon. Franklin: Right, scientists don’t talk to janitors and so forth. Davis: Yeah. Franklin: That’s really interesting. Did your mom work after— Davis: Yes, she worked at Dr. Ellner’s office, urologist here in town. She worked there for—I don’t know—from the time I was about nine, eight—I guess I was about eight when she started working there. So that would have been ’62. Franklin: Okay. And so then you would be born in ’54. Davis: Mm-hmm. Franklin: ’54. Okay. Davis: Part of that big baby boom. Franklin: Yeah. And how many siblings do you have? Davis: Three. Franklin: Okay. And were any of them—did any of them move to Richland from—so your parents came, your father came out in ’43, and then your family came out in the fall. When were your siblings born? Davis: They were born all in Kansas. Franklin: Okay. Davis: And so they were born in ’37, ’40, and ’41. Franklin: So you’re the real baby of the bunch. Davis: Oh, yeah. I was the surprise. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah. I think we all are in some way. Davis: Oh, I was—my mom was 41, so yeah, I was a shock. Franklin: Wow, yeah, that is quite a surprise. So tell me—then you would have been born then when Richland was still a government town. Davis: Right. Franklin: So tell me about growing up, like maybe from your earliest memories on. What was it like to—do you have any early memories of before—while Richland was still a government town? Davis: Yeah, I have a lot of memories from really early. My brother and I seem to both have the brains from early, early. The other two go, I don’t remember anything then. [LAUGHTER] They don’t really remember anything until after they’re five! One of the things that always struck me was, as a kid, driving through town and they had that asbestos siding that you had a green house or this dark reddish house. They all kind of looked the same. I know my sister one time accidentally ended up in the wrong house after school. And one of Mom’s best friends came in and found some guy sleeping in her bed. He was on leave from the Army and he had gotten in the wrong house. But they all looked the same. And people had the same furniture. Franklin: Right. Davis: So my sister went in and says, like, the living room furniture, I think, was all the same. And she says, she came home, put her papers down and then went out and played. Then came back later and went, Mom keeps moving the furniture! [LAUGHTER] She says she has no idea which house she went into. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, they had basically—I remember the green and the red. There might have been—and then there was some blue. And then they had like a cream color with them. So like the A houses would have been light colored on the top and then the red on the bottom. Or cream and—there was like three choices. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. It’s like the Model T. You can get it in black or black. Davis: Right. Yeah, this was—and you didn’t have a choice what color it was. And I guess when they first moved in, besides the paint being wet, they literally handed them a ten-pound bag of grass seed and said, plant your yard! Have fun! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s great. So, how about any memories that stand out from your early childhood or early life in Richland? I remember, earlier you mentioned that before we started taping, that your family had bought one of the first commercially available houses. Davis: Spec home. Franklin: Spec home. What year was that? Davis: 1960. Franklin: Okay, so you would have been about six years old then. Davis: Right. That was just before I was six, yeah. Franklin: And what was that like, to be in one of these? Davis: You— Franklin: New, new, new homes. Davis: Because of the class thing going on, I was not considered—and then shortly after they started building this North Richland area—I always felt like I didn’t fit in. I didn’t fit in with the kids in the, quote, government houses. Franklin: Okay. Davis: My house was basically a ranch house. We had hardwood floors instead of tiles. And we had a one-car garage, ooh, ahh. [LAUGHTER] But it really wasn’t—it was just a three-bedroom ranch. One bathroom and a one-car garage. And then all the scientists and the people making more money and the doctors started building into North Richland. And I didn’t fit in with them, either, because they went, oh, you’re in that little house. It was kind of like feeling like you didn’t fit in anywhere. Because I wasn’t in a government house, and a lot of the government houses were way bigger than the house we were in. Franklin: Huh. Davis: But I remember saying—one of the first memories in that house was—they’d moved us in—oh, they’d never allow it nowadays. Moved us in, we had no water. So the firemen came and hooked up to a fire hydrant about a block and a half away. [LAUGHTER] And then it ran into a garden hose, and it was February, and like below zero. So you always had to have water running in the bathtub to keep the little garden house. And if froze up, all the neighbors would come out and jump up and down on it, breaking the ice up. But nowadays you wouldn’t be able to move into a house without full running water. Franklin: Right, right. Wow. That’s fabulous. Davis: And then when we were first there—we were the very first ones sold. The others were having open houses. And we’d be sitting there having like a family get-together, and people start walking in our house. Oh, this one’s not open! No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And then that of course touched off a boom, though, right, in house construction in Richland. Davis: Right. North Richland, I remember we used to sit at our kitchen table and look out and watch all the houses going up, and here are all the—for years, you could see new houses and hear hammering every morning. North Richland just really took off because everybody started building their own. Franklin: Right. Davis: A lot of people went ahead and bought their original house from the government, but my parents—I don’t know, they fell—my dad fell in love with this house. My mother hated it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How long did they live at that house? Davis: We lived there 13 years. Franklin: Okay. So they really do like to move around a lot. Davis: That’s like mom’s record, yeah. Her last move was with us and she had to live with us ten years without moving before she died. [LAUGHTER] But generally, about—when my siblings were growing up, they got used to moving every six months to a year and a half. And they went to every single school in Richland. Franklin: Wow. Well, I guess they know a pretty big cross-section of the community, then. Davis: They were always—when you talk to different people, they’re like, oh yeah, so-and-so, and I go, oh yeah, my parents were their neighbors. And somebody else would say, oh yeah, they were their neighbors, too. Like Garmo who owned one of the grocery stores. All these different people, they were their neighbors at some point in time. Probably Johnson, who was the photographer for the area. He was a good friend and I’m still in recent contact with his daughter. Franklin: Right. Davis: But pretty much, if you lived in Richland for any length of time, my parents were your neighbor at some point. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s great. So when did your father retire from Hanford? Davis: I was married, so—when did he retire? I got married in ’74, so I’m trying to remember exactly. ’75 or ’76, something like that. Franklin: Oh, wow, so he was on—did he have any gaps in employment, or did he work onsite since 1943? Davis: He worked onsite that whole time. Franklin: Wow, and so what did— Davis: Except for the six-week strike they had. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, well tell me about that. Davis: I don’t even remember what it was about. I was in junior high. They had a strike which my dad was not in favor of, but he wouldn’t break union line. So he was on strike. During that time, he says, oh well, I’ll make the best of it, so he built a family room onto our house. [LAUGHTER] And got hooked on soap operas. Franklin: Wow. Davis: He used to make fun of Mom wanting to watch her soap opera, and then when he went back to work, he’d come home from work and go, what happened with—[LAUGHTER] But they were only on strike for like six weeks. Franklin: And do you remember what the strike was about at all? Davis: I don’t remember what it was about. Like I say, it was in junior high. It was— Franklin: Do you think you can give me kind of a date range so we could try to find something about that? Davis: That would have been in the late ‘60s? Somewhere in—yeah. It wasn’t a very long strike, but it was the first one that I know of that they had. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was that site wide, do you remember? Davis: Yeah, it was site wide. I wish I remembered what it was, but in junior high you don’t pay attention to stuff like that. Yeah, Dad’s on strike, well, so is everybody else’s dad, so— Franklin: All you know is that he’s camped out on the couch watching soap operas. Davis: No, he was busy building the family room. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: He literally put a whole addition on the back of the house. So that’s what he was doing during his six weeks. Franklin: Still worked. So you mentioned that he had been kind of a construction guy and then had worked at the separation plant, right, and then worked in the B Reactor. So what other jobs did he have? Davis: He went from B Reactor, when they closed it down, then he went to K. And then he kept saying, oh, I sure hope they don’t ever send me to N. That’s where he ended up. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah? Davis: He was always—he liked his B Reactor. Just the way the others were set up and they were different, he liked his B Reactor. Franklin: He got comfortable— Davis: But he ended up at N Reactor anyway. That’s where he retired from. Franklin: Oh, wow. And what did he do at— Davis: He was a reactor operator. He was—yeah, from after construction, he was a reactor operator. Franklin: So it seems like a really big career jump, from construction to— Davis: Yeah, but they didn’t—nobody knew what they were doing exactly. Franklin: Right. Davis: So it’s learn-as-you-go. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Davis: My dad—I remember him—it was really neat to go on the B Reactor tour, because it was probably the 70s before he ever even talked about what it looked like or anything. I never knew what it looked like. But he started—in the 70s was able to start feeling comfortable—I mean, it wasn’t classified or anything then. But the guys had just been used to not talking about it. Franklin: Well, yeah, I mean secrecy. Davis: But he started describing the panels and stuff. And there was this office behind him, and he says—during World War II—he says, the crazy Italian in the silk suits sat back there. And then he’d go get crapped up, is when they’d get contaminated and they’d have to take his silk suits away and burn them. I didn’t realize it until after Dad was gone, when he was talking about the crazy Italian in the silk suits, that was Fermi. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: Sitting behind my dad! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing. Davis: But he never said his name. He never said his name. Just the crazy Italian in the silk suits. Franklin: But, of course he probably would have known his name. Davis: Oh, during World War II, they didn’t. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: So that’s how—I think they just referred to him as the crazy Italians with the silk suits. Because they literally did not know their names. He was the guy who sat back there, and he’d go into places they weren’t allowed to go to. And he wasn’t really supposed to, but he’d go in and tinker. Then they’d check him for radiation and go, eh, those clothes—I remember, one of my early memories is being in grade school and my dad getting off the bus, because everybody rode the buses to work. They were just like clockwork and super on—I mean super on time. And I remember coming out of the house, and my dad’s getting off the bus in the afternoon and—I guess I was heading to school. He’s coming down—my dad was only five-foot-six. And he’s got a pair of pants that he’s holding up around his armpits, and a shirt that’s probably was past his knees rolled up to his—and clomping along in these shoes that don’t fit. He had gotten crapped up at work. Franklin: Oh. Davis: And he ended up—one of his friends who was like six-foot-six had some extra clothes. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, he’s like, you know, when you get your clothes crapped up, you lose your clothes. Franklin: Right. Davis: Even your underwear. [LAUGHTER] So he’s coming home with—[LAUGHTER] I still remember—luckily we only lived like a half block from where the bus dropped him off. But I thought, that had to be a little uncomfortable at work, walking around like that. Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. Davis: Trying to hold these. Yeah, Trawler, he was six-five, six-six. He was a tall guy, skinny. But Dad was only five-foot-six. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s a great story. So there’s some—a couple of the big events that we always ask people about and one of them is Kennedy’s visit to the N Reactor in 1963. Did you—were you— Davis: Both my parents were working. Franklin: They were both working, so— Davis: [LAUGHTER] I didn’t have any way to get there. I wanted to go, but my parents, oh, it’s going to be a big crowd. They didn’t like crowds. Franklin: Right. Davis: So, yeah, I didn’t get to go. They were both working. So I heard about it from my friends. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Your friends who went? Davis: Yeah, I had friends who went. Franklin: Awesome. Davis: And they still remember it, and I’m going, oh, I didn’t get to go. Franklin: Ah, you were busy. So any other major—any other big events that kind of stick out at you in Richland, growing up in Richland or maybe even a little later? Davis: Ah, let’s see, what were the events? They always had their fire parade, their fire prevention parades. That was when you were a kid and you got to decorate your bike and ride down the road. Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: G Way, and they had—when I was really little, there was like Frontier Days or some other parade that we had. And then one of the big thrills was in the spring, they would bring in, quote, well, we’d call them travel trailers now, but they were the early mobile homes that were like eight-foot-wide and 12 feet long. And they’d set them up in the Uptown Richland parking lot. You’d go look through them and go, oh, aren’t these cool. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They brought them up for sale? Davis: Yeah, you know how they do car shows now in parking lots? Well, they’d bring these little mobile—[LAUGHTER] little dinky mobile homes. Which nowadays, I says, my fifth wheel’s bigger [LAUGHTER] than these, quote, homes that you’re supposed to live in. Franklin: I could imagine for some of the people who had been here in the early days that those might have given them some flashbacks to the trailer camps or— Davis: Yeah, my parents didn’t live in the trailer camps, but they had a lot of friends who did. And one of my best friends, her parents had built—they had no place to live, so they built their own trailer and lived down at the Y. It was a homemade, and it was really little with three kids. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. That’s amazing. So did you end up staying in Richland, then—did you ever move out of the Tri-Cities? Davis: We went to the Chicago area, and we were gone—I didn’t leave until I got married. Franklin: Okay. Davis: My husband went to Pullman for a year and then we went to Chicago. We were gone about nine years and then came back and raised our kids here. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so what brought you back to the— Davis: Family. My parents were here, my dad’s health was failing, and I had just lost my father-in-law. So we kind of wanted the kids to get the chance to know their grandparents, because my husband’s parents were both gone. So, family. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, wow. Davis: And good memories of being growing up here. Franklin: Sure, sure. Davis: Versus Chicago. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So, what would you—is there anything you would like future generations to know about growing up—like kind of the experience growing up in Richland, or what it would have been like to be so close to Hanford? To help them understand what that would be like. Davis: Growing up with my dad, the guys and women who worked out there, they were proud of what they did. Yes, bombs, they all agreed, the bomb is nasty. But in the long run it probably saved millions of lives on both sides. Because Japan was willing to fight ‘til the last man, which would have been millions of more lives lost. And if they would have gotten the bomb first, we’d be speaking Japanese. [LAUGHTER] I think there’s an overall pride—and my husband and I were just talking about this last year, that what was accomplished at Hanford would never be able to be done today. Back then, the old—they had all the signs, loose lips sink ships. My husband says, well, it’d been sunk long—they couldn’t have even gotten the first thing done before it would have been out in the open. Nowadays I don’t think they could pull it off. And people knew they weren’t supposed to talk about it. My dad—my mom said when they were living in Yakima, my dad, he had read about the reactor—splitting the atom in the Collier’s magazine before the war. They were going to go get the magazine and look it up. They never got around to it. Found out if you asked about that magazine, you were fired. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So they learned not to say anything. They handed some uranium around and my dad by the weight, he said, it wasn’t very big but he knew by the weight what it was. And he started to say something, and his boss says, don’t. And later he says if you would’ve said it, I would’ve had to have fired you on the spot. I mean, you just knew that if you said anything—so he whispered it to my mom one night, under—they were sure that there were microphones everywhere. So even though they were living in Yakima, he would put a pillow over them. And he says, I think we’re making the bomb. Franklin: Really? Davis: And my mom kind of went, pfft. Sure you are. [LAUGHTER] And then my mom didn’t know—said they didn’t really know what it was until my brother came home from school and all the kids and everybody was going, we dropped the bomb, we dropped the bomb. Franklin: Wow. Davis: But I think there’s a pride in what they did. It was very secretive and when you realize that everybody was doing their little part, and they didn’t know what the other parts were. I mean, it’d be like trying to tell somebody to put a car together. Here, you have this screw, put it somewhere—and only that one. And you don’t really know what’s going on. It was really amazing what they pulled off. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: And I think they—all the men and women who worked out there were really proud of what they did. And I think it went on to their families to feel proud of what they did. Yeah, the bomb’s not a nice thing, but where we would have been without it? Franklin: Right. What about later in the Cold War, after, and all the other things that were produced—all the other bombs that were produced? Do you think that added or ever shifted and change, or—especially in the late 60s with the protests? Davis: Yeah, in the ‘60s, my dad used to get to work with Dixy Lee Ray periodically and they’d sit and talk. And he always kept saying, you know, we’ve kept it so quiet and we keep it so hush-hush. He says, we’re past that point now, we need to educate people on nuclear power and get away from the—people, and I still talk to people, especially not from around here, when you’re in other states, they cannot separate power from bomb. To them, it’s all one thing. There is no power, it’s just a bomb. And it’s like, no, you can have nuclear power and not have a bomb. And he kept saying, we need to educate—and I remember learning stuff about it in school here. Cousins and stuff back east, they never learned anything about it. They knew nothing about nuclear power, nuclear fission—nothing. [LAUGHTER] I think the sad part is that they didn’t do more educating, they just—they lived too long in that shroud of secrecy, and didn’t spread the knowledge. Franklin: Right. So you think, maybe it was—even though everybody knew after ’45 what was—and that they were continuing to produced, there was maybe a missed opportunity there. Davis: And throughout the ‘50s it was still—you didn’t talk about it. Franklin: Right, the fear, the specter of international communism. Davis: Right, even though war was over with the bombs, everybody knows about it, it still was a hush-hush. Yeah, I think they missed an opportunity on education. And people just grew up fearing it and not understanding anything about—hey, this could be a decent power source. Franklin: Right. Davis: Taking Chernobyl out as a factor. [LAGUHTER] That was a poorly designed— Franklin: There’s also Three Mile and other—certainly when a lot of people on the East Coast found about nuclear power first— Davis: Yeah, they learned about it when it wasn’t—sometimes it was a poor design to start with. Well, when we lived in Chicago, there’s the Indiana Dunes. They were trying to build one on the Dunes. They didn’t even have any bedrock to sink it into. And we’re going, you know, they’re dunes? They kind of like, don’t stay put? [LAUGHTER] When we left there, they were still trying to do it. And we’re like, that doesn’t even make sense. So then there was a lot of stupid mistakes, too, that—yeah, you got to think about all the safety part. Franklin: Right. But it seems kind of hard sometimes to separate the secrecy even from the—there’s so much [INAUDIBLE]. Davis: Do you know, through even the mid ‘60s there was still tremendous secrecy. Mid and late ‘60s. You still, living here, felt like, you know, it was hush-hush. Franklin: But I imagine with the government owning the town until the late ‘50s that certainly you would keep that element of—that kind of vibe alive. Davis: Yeah, and pretty much the same people who were here when the government released the town—when I graduated from high school, what, were there 9,000 people in Richland? That was in ’72. So a good chunk of those people were ones who were still here from World War II. Franklin: Right, and you lived in Richland the whole time, from when you were growing up, when you were born. Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: So did you ever go to the other two cities much? Davis: Oh, yeah! Downtown Pasco was one of the best places to shop! Franklin: Oh really? Davis: Oh, it had the classy stores! Franklin: Really? Davis: Oh, yeah. It was a major trek, but you’d go to downtown Pasco to go shopping. Well, that was a big day shopping, because they had the fancier ladies’ stores, they had shoe stores, they had the pet shop! Franklin: Oh, okay. Davis: And they had a big drug store, and furniture stores and you could spend a whole day in, quote, Downtown Pasco! [LAUGHTER] That was a classy place to go. And then the old downtown Kennewick was—that was more functional. It had Penney’s and Sears and stuff, you know. Not Sears—what was it? I can’t remember the name of the store. But when you needed fireplace stuff or a stove or something. Franklin: So like a Woolworth’s or something like that. Davis: Yeah, but there were several stores. And there was the hardware store that’s still there. Franklin: Yeah, the— Davis: Kennewick Hardware is still there. It was there when I was little. I think one of the big things you remember is like going there in three feet of snow because our stove had caught fire. We had to buy a new stove. Back then you could leave your kid in the car, and I was tired of going in and out of stores, and sitting there in the car. I was probably about four. Mom was just inside, you know, ordering a stove and we got a chinook. Within like the time that they took them to order their stove and come out, I watched the snow leave. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: Totally fascinating. It was gurgling and stuff, but wow. That’s one thing about this area, you get chinooks. When you talk about it in Chicago, they go, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s really interesting. Did you have any friends from the other cities, or did you mostly— Davis: My parents’ best friends moved to Kennewick, which was my sister’s best friend—it started out with my sister’s best friend who they lived kitty-corner from us when I was born, and then our parents met and became best friends, and then her younger sister and I are best friends, and we’re each other’s kids’ godparents. But they—when I was about three or four, they moved to Kennewick to a new house. [LAUGHTER] And then he commuted. He had to drive out to work because he couldn’t—the buses didn’t go to Kennewick; they were only in Richland. Franklin: So there was still a lot of inducement, then, to stay in Richland. Davis: Yeah, you didn’t have to get that second car, because you’d just walk—most of the guys didn’t walk more than a block or two to get to the bus. Franklin: Wow. Davis: I mean, these buses were everywhere. Franklin: Yeah, at the project offices, we have a map—I think it’s from the very early ‘80s but even then they were still running buses, and yeah, they’d go all— Davis: They go everywhere and nobody walked more than two blocks from their house to a bus. Franklin: That’s [INAUDIBLE]. Davis: So you only had to have one car. Even when my mom was working, she got the car to go to work and Dad rode the bus. Wasn’t any problem. Franklin: Right. I bet that would help instill a certain sense of camaraderie, because you’d ride the bus with these guys, and it’s not like today when you get in a car and you’re kind of in this bubble—you have a radio, but you’re kind of in a bubble. Whereas in a bus, everyday, you-- Davis: Well, we lived there, where—the change between the government town and the newer part of town. So you had people like Dad—you’ve got nuclear operators, you had janitors and you had the scientists, all on the same bus. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Davis: I mean, everybody rode the bus. When the bus would come, there’d always be five or six guys standing out down there. And a bunch would get off and a bunch would get on. Franklin: So after the changeover, it was still the site that operated all the buses. Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: Did they have to pay for that, or was that just a perk? Davis: That was just—yeah, they just paid for it. I mean, the government paid for it—nobody else could ride the buses, only the workers and they only went to and from work. They weren’t for like the families to go shopping or anything. It was just for the workers. And, yeah, they just got on the buses and they knew they were going to be there. Franklin: When did bus service start in the area for other people living in Richland? Davis: It had to have been after—as soon as they started building houses. Franklin: Okay. Davis: Because these guys had to get to work— Franklin: Right. Oh, no, sorry— Davis: And most people back then, you had tire vouchers and stuff—you couldn’t like get tires overnight. You couldn’t even get bananas without a doctor’s prescription. [LAUGHTER] My siblings were skinny, so Mom always ended up with a prescription for bananas. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, they had to write doctor’s prescriptions. So getting a second car wasn’t even really an option. So they started the bus service really early, just getting these guys out to work as they started building the home. Franklin: Wow. So you brought in some documents and things. Would you like to— Davis: Where’d we put them? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I think it’d be really interesting to get those on video and to have you talk about some of those. Davis: All right. They’re not super exciting. This is my dad’s birth certificate. The City of Miller which never was officially a city, in Lyon, Kansas. My father’s records were in the courthouse along with three generations of family records, and it burned down when he was about seven. So he had no birth certificate. And not too long after he started working here, they asked for his birth certificate—that he needed to get it. And he says, I don’t have one. So this is his newer birth certificate that they issued in May of ’42. He came in February so to May he had to get it. They sent an FBI agent out who interviewed his father, his uncle who raised him—his mother died when he was born so his uncle raised him—and his aunt. And they also used an insurance policy that was issued when he was 20 to verify that he was him. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So not everybody has all these affidavits and stuff at the bottom of their birth certificate, but this was from the FBI being able to verify. My great aunt was like, that was the weirdest thing. [LAUGHTER] Because back there, you just don’t have government people. Franklin: Right. So they would have been out to the small town in Kansas, then. Davis: Out in the middle of nowhere. Franklin: To ask questions about her nephew. Davis: That was one thing growing up in Richland. You were so used to the FBI coming to your door at least once a month, because everybody had different cycles for their clearances. They would always come to your door and ask, are they part of your—do they drink, do they do that? We talked to them all the time. It was never any big deal, because always somebody in your neighborhood was renewing their certification—their clearance. When I lived in Chicago, they came about somebody who was going to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority. It was my neighbor. My neighbors all slammed the door in their face. I talked to the guy, I opened the door, and I go, oh, yeah! It was security clearance. He goes, you’re the first one who’d talk to me. [LAUGHTER] I says, did it all the time when I was growing up. Franklin: Wow. Davis: But it scares a lot of people. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: But I think they thought it was a little—because the war’s going on, they don’t know what’s going on and here’s these FBI people wanting to know about my dad. I think they’re going, what’s he doing? Franklin: Yeah, is he a spy? Davis: Yeah, did he get in trouble? And they’re not allowed to tell them anything. So they thought it was very, very strange when these suited men showed up. Franklin: That’s great, that’s a great story. And it’s great to have the documentation here to— Davis: You’ve already seen a million flood pictures. Franklin: Well, that’s still a pretty—very scarring event for a lot of people, I bet. Davis: Yeah, this was the flood of ’48. It came within a few blocks of where my parents were living at the time. Don’t ask which street that was back then, because they moved so much. But this was just a family picture of the Flood of ’48 that was so devastating. And then they put the dyke in. Franklin: Right. Davis: Here is—well, this one’s tiny. This is just a picture of any summer day in Richland. Everybody had kids. Most the families were young, so there was lots of kids. It was just—even when I was growing up was the same way in the ‘60s. There was kids everywhere. Riding bikes and running between houses, and you came in when the street lights came on. Franklin: And I imagine not a lot of elderly people in Richland, right? And so that must have—because you would have had grandparents, but they would have been far away, or they wouldn’t be living in town. Whereas in Kennewick and Pasco people might have more extended families living near them. Davis: Right. My grandmother came here to live with Mom and Dad not too long before she died. But, yeah, grandparents—if you were retired you couldn’t live in Richland. Franklin: Right, right. Davis: If you were not working for Hanford, you didn’t live there. So, yeah, there weren’t old people and most of the construction workers who came were young and all had young families. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So there were kids pouring out of every house. Franklin: Yeah. Davis: So this is—how many kids are in just—this is Mom and Dad’s front yard. And the kids played ball together, they ran and played tag. There were no fences, so all the backs of the yards were like one big yard. Franklin: Wow. And probably still not a lot of trees at that time. Davis: Not really. Franklin: And when—can we look at this photo on the back? Davis: This was 1948. So that’s only three years after the war. So, yeah, the trees are still—if you look around, you don’t see any trees. Franklin: Right. Wow. Davis: And here’s another one. This one would be—let’s see. This’d be ’46. No trees. There’s a bush. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And this is one of your sisters? Davis: This is my sister. Yeah. First day of kindergarten. But what I brought it for was the A house. See, they had the dark color on top—this one, I’m guessing, is probably the red one. And then the cream. They were all like that, they were all bicolored. We had cream and then one of the other three choices. You had green, red, and blue. That was it. Franklin: Right. Davis: The government supplied the paint. This is the house that I grew up in on Newcomer. It was the first spec house sold. We’re still getting our water lines. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And my dog, Tippy. This isn’t the garage anymore; somebody’s changed it out. But we had—it was really fresh and new. Franklin: And this was 1960? Davis: ’60. Yeah, February of ’60 is when we moved in. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Mom says January of ‘60. I always think it was February but oh well. Halfway through kindergarten, I had to change schools. My siblings went, so? Because they had to change schools all the time. Franklin: Yeah, not a lot of sympathy for you, I bet. Davis: And this is my dad getting an award for what they called the Christmas Tree, which was the front of the reactor that had lights—indicator lights on it. I don’t know if it says exactly what he—just came up, yeah. Franklin: He’s D. D. Smith? Davis: Most people called him D. D. or Smitty. His named was Derald. Franklin: Derald. Davis: Derald. Like Gerald but with a D. Let’s see. Yeah, he was considered a pile operator. $185 was his award, which—like I said, that was a lot of money. Franklin: A couple weeks’ wages, probably. Davis: At least two or three weeks’ worth of wages. So that was a really big thing. Yeah, something about modifying the lights or something so they were easier to read. Apparently they thought it was a good idea. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Do you know when that was? Was that during the war? Was this— Davis: Since my dad never looked any different over a 40- or 50-year period, I’m not sure what date is on this. What was funny is on the back, I found my friend’s dad’s name on it. [LAUGHTER] And I went, oh! I’m kind of guessing this might be the ‘50s? Franklin: Okay. Davis: Early ‘60s? I’m looking at the ties. Franklin: No, that’s good. Davis: They had a paper that came out of the Areas. That was in that paper—the Area paper was a little fold-up. Franklin: Yeah, we have a bound collection of a lot of the Hanford GE News and a lot of that. Let’s see this here. Davis: 1944. This is my dad’s card for the International Union of Operating Engineers. Franklin: Okay. Davis: And that was December of ’44. Franklin: Wow. Davis: So this is still during the war. Franklin: Yeah! Davis: And this is the other part of the same thing, the International Union of Operating Engineers. Came out of Spokane. Got stamped; I guess for going to meetings. No, his dues, his dues and going to meetings. Franklin: Makes sense. Davis: Whoops. This isn’t for my dad; this is for my grandmother. I need to go show Kadlec this. [LAUGHTER] My grandmother got cancer and was in Kadlec Hospital for six weeks before she died. Franklin: Okay. Davis: Here’s the total of her bill. $386.15. Franklin: Wow. Davis: The operating room cost $8. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Anesthesia was $10. It cost more. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Lab, dressings—yeah, and she was there for six weeks before she died. Franklin: Six weeks. Davis: And that’s her bill. This bill was—yeah, written on the day she died. Franklin: Okay. And what date was that? Davis: 1946. Franklin: Oh, okay. So she moved in, then, pretty soon after the war ended? Davis: Yeah, and she moved to— Hungate: And it’s billed through DuPont. Davis: Yup. Oh, even I—I didn’t even notice that. DuPont. Franklin: DuPont. Davis: I don’t know of many people still have a bill from 1946. Franklin: No. That’s a very interesting bill, though. Davis: What is this one? Oh, this is just really bad pictures that they took—every year they had to have their pictures renewed. [LAUGHTER] That was—that had to have been a windy day, because his hair’s sticking up all over. Franklin: Right, well, like you said earlier, they had thousands upon thousands of men to process. Davis: Yeah, it’s like while you’re at work, and it’s just like get your picture taken, click, and you’re done. Franklin: And this, on the front it says GE so— Davis: Yeah, that would have been from after GE took over. I’d say from that picture from the ‘60s. Franklin: Wow. Davis: What’s this one? Just a few little odd things I found in Mom’s—oh, just—from February of 1942, The University of Kansas School of Engineering and Architecture, Engineering Defense Training Program from—his certificate. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, this is—I’m not sure exactly what they taught him, or—he never talked about this. I knew nothing about this until I found this just this last week. Franklin: Wow, interesting. Davis: So I have no story to go with this, other than the date and it’s my dad. Franklin: Right. So then he would have came out here very shortly after getting this, right? Davis: Mm-hm. Franklin: Interesting. Davis: Like I say, when they told him to come out, they didn’t tell him why or anything. Just go to this place in Washington that you’ve never heard of. Franklin Yeah, we have a job for you. Davis: And you’re going to have trouble finding it on a map, even. [LAUGHTER] This is just a—it’s got—it says N Reactor Plant Dates—Data. Just about—I think it was a reference for them when they were working. Franklin: Okay. Davis: It’s pocket size. Franklin: Right. Davis: So I think it was just a—yeah, decontaminating, water treatment—I think it was just a little reference thing that they kept in their—on their person. Franklin: Wow. Davis: And then my dad was trying to get my uncle to move out here from Kansas. [LAUGHTER] And he wrote a letter describing wages, jobs. So, trying to get down to there. Let’s see. “They want patrolmen pretty badly. The pay isn’t as much as I make by about $18 a week.” But my uncle was single, never married, so it probably wasn’t any problem to him. And he says, “However it isn’t bad. You start at $58 a week.” [LAUGHTER] It says, a week. And after 30 days, after you’ve passed that, you move up to $60 a week. And then after six months you get $62.50 a week. Yeah, they were looking for patrolmen and firemen and a lot of the other stuff. And he asked—my uncle was in World War Two, and he asked if he had any training in anything specific that might be used out here. But my uncle stayed back in Kansas and eventually became a—because of being ex-military, he became a postman. Not a postman, a postmaster. Franklin: Okay. Davis: A postmaster in a little town. But he never did come out. I just thought the pricing—just thought it was interesting, because 58 bucks a week. Franklin: That would have been—that’s a good chunk of money back then. Davis: For my uncle, for what he was making in Kansas it would have been a whole lot of money. [INAUDIBLE] Oh, meals at the cafeteria average $0.75. It’s just littered with little stuff like that. He was trying to convince my uncle to move back out here. Franklin: Right, wow. Davis: What’s this? Oh. This was in a Kansas City Times in 1947. “Growing Town of Atom Plant Workers Is a Distinctive Sort of Community.” Franklin: Mm. Davis: So, that was kind of—you know. This is what, when people released—after the war’s over, people are starting to hear, now, what the heck was—[LAUGHTER] going on, and how different our towns were from towns that had been around for 100 years. Franklin: Right. And that it’s completely government controlled and— Davis: Yeah, and plants were far from town. You know, Dad would usually spend an hour on the bus going out to work, and we were in North Richland. Franklin: Wow. Davis: Yeah, but I think this is what my uncle had cut out and sent to him. Franklin: Cool. Davis: From Kansas. And the highest birthrates in the nation. [LAUGHTER] Because everybody was young. I was part of that major boom. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s neat. That’s neat that he saved that. Davis: And my sister says—we were talking and she said, yeah, when you went to school, you stood up on the first day of school and said where you were from. Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas. When I went to school, we had all been born here. There weren’t any outsiders, I guess, because we were all born here. Franklin: Right. Davis: But during the war, everybody stood up and said where they were from. Because everybody was from somewhere. Franklin: Right. Davis: She says, there was a few—once in a while you’d run into somebody who says, oh, I was born here. And they’re like, oh. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, oh, you’re an original! Davis: Oh, you’re really strange! You didn’t come from the Midwest? Because that seems to be the biggest proportion came from the Midwest. Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas. Franklin: And Texas, too, there was a huge—but that’s definitely where they were pulling lots of people from. Davis: And it was mostly by word of mouth as their job tended to—go to Washington. What are we going to do? Can’t tell you. Because I don’t know. Franklin: Take this train to a place you’ve never heard of. Davis: Yup. Any other questions? Franklin: No, I think that was great. Thank you so much for sharing. I learned a lot of things that I didn’t know about, growing up here. Davis: Oh, I probably—going to think of a million things driving home, I’m sure. Oh, I should have said—[LAUGHTER] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:33 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor K Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-1975 1984- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linda Davis Description An account of the resource Linda Davis was born in Richland, Washington in 1954. Her father moved to Richland in 1943 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/26/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-01-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Migration Dust Bowl Era, 1931-1939 Nuclear power plant operators Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities B Reactor Cold War Dunes DuPont FBI Flood Hanford Kennedy Kennewick N Reactor School War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbbbd3b4096f8413ff7c99170dc6fd5c8.jpg e1be330beeaf78e03c7fc402e48d3d14 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd3e8c16b52591c7e489098789c77ceb2.mp4 f97a1912e64cf45b4ffa5ee86963a7dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linda Munson Description An account of the resource An interview with Linda Munson conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F115bb71b1265322a2c524550b06836dc.png 39382a0f67b8a6e3791777d8beeecd5d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1ce003197be6b98ea0b26e05a97de05d.mp4 793915522b780c8818451da5c7e285d0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Liz Curfman Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay, great. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Liz Curfman on July 16, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Liz about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Elizabeth Curfman: Elizabeth, E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H, Curfman, C-U-R-F-M-A-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much. And you prefer to go by Liz? Curfman: Liz, yes. Franklin: Okay, great. So, tell me how and why you came to the area to work at Hanford. Curfman: I actually came to the area in 1968 because my grandmother was living here. And the job prospects here were much greater than they were in Memphis, Tennessee, where I was born and raised. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you were from the South. Curfman: Yes, uh-huh. Franklin: How did your grandmother come here? Curfman: My grandmother was sort of a black migrant worker; she went wherever the work was. She’d go to Florida, she’d go to do oranges, she’d go to different places. She’d come to Washington and do mint and potatoes. And it seemed that Washington had more seasonal work, so she decided to settle here. Franklin: Where was she living when she first got here? Curfman: Pasco. Franklin: In Pasco. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: In east Pasco? Curfman: East Pasco, yes. Franklin: And did any of your other family members come here? Curfman: I have two sisters that came here, yes. Franklin: I want to ask about your grandmother’s experiences as a black woman in Pasco in the ‘50s. Did she tell you about any—about her life and any hardships or struggles? Curfman: Not really. She did a lot of domestic work and she did a lot of factory-type work, like at the potato sheds and things like that. But she was the kind of person where, when I came here, I was still saying yes, ma’am and yes, sir. She was adamantly against that. You don’t say, yes, ma’am and yes, sir. That’s a slave thing. Franklin: Right, but that was part of the Jim Crow system, right? Was you would say, yes, ma’am, yes, sir, to white people, children and adults, right? Curfman: Yes, yes. Franklin: So you—what year were you born? Curfman: 1950. Franklin: Okay. So, you were born, then, during the Jim Crow era. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Did you go to segregated schools? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Did you live in a segregated neighborhood? Curfman: I did, yes. Franklin: How did segregation of the South compare to the situation in Pasco when you arrived here? Curfman: Oh, it was definitely a culture shock, you know? I came to east Pasco to live with my grandmother until I found my own housing. My own housing was in Richland, and I had white neighbors, which I had never had in the South. So there was definitely a culture shock. Even my parents, you know—I have white neighbors, they’re like, oh my goodness. And they were from the—Ma said that that meant you had moved up in the world, kind of. So it was something to be proud of, I guess. Of course, my grandmother was totally the opposite. She was of a different generation than my mom and dad, because she was like, that’s nothing to be proud of. You deserve—you know, you’re just as equal as they are. So she had a different mindset for her generation. Franklin: It sounds like it. Because your—I imagine your grandmother would’ve been born sometime in the 19th century. Curfman: Yeah, she was born in 1897, I think. Franklin: Okay. So she would’ve grown up with segregation as well. Right after Plessy v. Ferguson. What do you remember about some of the landmark civil rights legislation or events when you were in Tennessee? School desegregation and civil rights protests? Curfman: You know, being in the city, we weren’t involved in very many protests. I do know that I went to a segregated school, as most—well, all black kids did. But we didn’t have the yellow school buses; we had the city buses. And the process was that it would pick the white school districts before it got to the black school district. So I can remember at times getting on the bus and having empty seats next to a white person, but they would have their books sitting on the seats, so you couldn’t ask them to move. You know, so that you couldn’t sit there. It never even crossed our minds to even ask them to, you know. It was just one of those things that you go to the back of the bus. Franklin: Right, just the way it was. Curfman: Yes, the way it was, yes. Franklin: And then do you have any memories of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, how that affected your life or your family’s life? Curfman: In 1964, I happened to be up here in the summer, visiting. I was like 14. There was a civil rights march in downtown Pasco. So that was the first involvement I had with anything like that. Franklin: Oh, did you participate in the march? Curfman: Yes, I did. Franklin: Why was that important to you? Curfman: Because it was something, you know, having been from the South and not having those rights, it was important that those were the kinds of things we were fighting for. At that time, when I came in ’64, there was a lot of things about, we can’t go to Kennewick, or we can’t be in Kennewick after dark. So those were the things that the people doing the march said that we were marching for. Franklin: Yeah. Greater inclusion. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: In the Tri-Cities. How would you describe the community in east Pasco when you first encountered it? Curfman: Mm-hmm. It was—I don’t know how to explain that. It was definitely different from the South, because the people were—some were working out at Hanford in construction, so their economics was totally different than in the South, where the people that I knew worked in restaurants or did domestic work, those kinds of things. So economics were totally different. Franklin: What were your first impressions of the Tri-Cities when you first arrived here? Yeah, first impressions. Curfman: You know, of course there was a little bit of fear. But then there was, I don’t want to say shock, but I was in awe of the fact that I could go into the stores and that the store wasn’t all-black. You know, there were white clerks, white people buying groceries. You know, it wasn’t an all-black store or things like that. Franklin: What about the environment? How did it compare to Tennessee? The physical environment and things. Curfman: Well, being in Memphis, being more of a city, we had a lot more trees and sidewalks and things like that, compared to east Pasco. But I felt like the people of east Pasco were more involved. I never really had any involvement with civil rights and stuff in the South. My parents didn’t. But when I came up here, it was marches. The NAACP was really active in east Pasco. So I joined that and did some things with them. They just seemed to be more—doing more for black people. They weren’t accepting the status quo; compared to in the South, it was like this is the way it is. Franklin: Why do you think that was? Curfman: That’s a good question, based on the fact that a lot of those people came from the South themselves. Again, I think it’s, maybe, making more money, being financially able to do and say things, not totally dependent. You take, for example, working out at Hanford doing construction, versus being a domestic person that’s, you can’t say what you want to say, because you could be fired tomorrow kind of thing. So I think they had more freedom to talk and do things. Franklin: So you had come out to visit when you were 14. Curfman: Mm-hmm, yes. Franklin: And then after ’68—I’m just kind of going by date—you must’ve graduated high school and then you took the big jump and came out here. Curfman: Yes, I was actually married at that time and had one son, one child. And my grandmother said the job opportunities were better out here for black people than in the South. So she paid for me and my family to come out here. Franklin: Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s a very common thing we’ve heard, doing this project, was the—yeah. That jobs were the main pull force out of the South for people was the employment. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And you said that you, when you first came, you stayed with your grandmother until you got your own place and then you lived in Richland. Where did you live in Richland? Curfman: My first house was on—actually, my first house was in West Richland which was even worse. I felt like I was treated worse in West Richland than I was in Richland or Kennewick, as far as the white neighbors kind of a thing. It was like I was totally out of place in West Richland. They treated you like you should not be here. Franklin: Really? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Were there any specific incidences that stand out? Curfman: Just, the neighbors weren’t friendly. They had kind of one little grocery store and you’d go in, it seemed like everyone would be staring at you. The clerks weren’t friendly. You know, they’d just take your money and not say hi, not even give you eye contact. You just felt very unwanted. So, it was a welcome release when we found a rental in Richland and moved to Richland. Franklin: And where did you land in Richland? Curfman: I was on Wright Street—Wright Avenue, right by Duportail, right in that area. Franklin: Yeah, okay. Yup. I know that area very well. Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So you must’ve been living in an Alphabet House or a prefab? Curfman: Yes, a prefab, yes. Franklin: Prefab. A two-bedroom? Curfman: Two-bedroom, mm-hmm. Franklin: Just try—I lived the past two years in that neighborhood, so I know that neighborhood very well. So what sort of work did you do at Hanford? What was your first position? Curfman: My first position was as a lab—at that time they called them chemical analysts in the laboratory, at 222-S Laboratory. Franklin: Oh, okay. All the way out in the 200 Area. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: So you—how did you get out there? Curfman: Of course, my grandmother had brought me up here to go to work out there, because she heard that they were hiring. At that time they had a program that was called the TOP program. It was specifically designed to bring minorities—hire minorities into the library. So they were actively pursuing minorities to go to work out there. Franklin: That must’ve been somehow connected to civil rights legislation, right? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Forcing, kind of— Curfman: Affirmative Action. Franklin: Affirmative Action, thank you. So I assume you weren’t the only minority to come out there. Curfman: Right, no. Yeah, the entire program was all minorities, yes. Franklin: How were you and your cohort received? Curfman: I think there was a little bit of fear. I actually worked with one lady that was from Prosser. At that time, there was one black guy working in the laboratory. She was saying that, except for him—he was the first black person she had ever seen, when he went to work out in the laboratory. So we talked about things like that. It was like we were always being watched, and it was kind of like being on the TOP program was kind of a put-down. Like there might have been some kind of resentment that we were being brought in. Franklin: Right. So you’re saying that there was kind of like the modern-day criticisms of Affirmative Action that some people say, you’re here for quota reasons and maybe— Curfman: Yes. Franklin: --you took the job of a local or a white person. Curfman: Yes, absolutely. Franklin: But you—so, was that just an initial thing, or did that kind of hang over the program for its— Curfman: No, it was an initial thing. I can’t even remember how long the program lasted. I don’t even know if there was a class after the one class that I was in. I can’t remember. So, it was basically an initial thing. There was some that made it and some that didn’t. Franklin: What did you know or hear about—did you learn about the prior history of African Americans at Hanford from the Manhattan Project on? Did you know that African Americans had helped to build Hanford and the buildings that you were working in? Curfman: In the construction area, yes. Yeah, I knew that. Franklin: Was that something that was kind of common knowledge or talked about? Curfman: Yes, and being in east—there were people in east Pasco who were still working out there in the construction area. So, you hear about them coming here from Texas and different places in the early ‘50s and late ‘40s. Franklin: What did you—your work at Hanford was kind of beyond—it seems like you were the class that really went beyond—you expanded the boundaries of blacks at Hanford from construction into labs. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How was that received in the African American community? What did the earlier workers, did they ever talk to you about that, or anything like that? Curfman: The earlier workers, no, I can’t remember talking to any of them about it. Franklin: Okay. How did you get out to the labs? Did you take a bus? Curfman: The bus, yes. Franklin: What was that like? Curfman: It was interesting. You know, we would drive to the bus lot and catch the bus. When I started working out there, of course everyone had to do the shift work, so I worked the A,B,C,D shift, which was seven days on, two days off kind of thing, and then once a month, you had the four days off. But again, it was one of those things, getting on the bus, you felt like everyone was staring at you. Especially going out to the labs, because at that time, there wasn’t very many black people in the labs, so. Or on the buses period. Because the construction workers normally worked daytime; they weren’t out there at night and things like that. So there would be people that—you know. And almost like old habits never die, still kind of went to the back of the bus kind of thing. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense, sadly. What did your husband do when he came out here? Did he find work out at Hanford? Curfman: Yes, he was a chemical operator in 200 East area. Franklin: Was he part of the same program? Curfman: No, he was not part of the TOP program. Franklin: Oh, okay. What do you know about his experiences out on Site? Curfman: I don’t think he had any negative experiences. I can remember having his boss for dinner, things like that. Of course was a white guy. I don’t remember anything negative that he would ever come home and say. Franklin: Your children eventually must’ve enrolled in Richland School District, right? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How was their experience as a minority student in the school district? Were there any people that were really influenced them or mentored them or was there any negative experiences? Curfman: No, I don’t think there were—because they were both into sports, so that always kind of carried them a long way. They started out in Richland schools. I got divorced and remarried and moved to Benton City, which, again, put them—they were the only two black kids in the all-white school. [LAUGHTER] Curfman: But, you know, they had lots of friends. We didn’t have any problems. I probably had more issues than they did. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine there were not a lot of blacks in Benton City. Curfman: There was not. We were it. We were it. Franklin: Yeah. I grew up in a very small farming town and I think it was a similar situation for my friend who was the only black kid in our school for quite a long time. Curfman: Uh-huh. Franklin: So how was Benton City different from Richland, living there, the community? I wonder if you’d talk about that. Curfman: Yeah, again, it was about the same experience as being in West Richland. You didn’t feel like you belonged. If you went to the grocery stores, the post office, the bank, you were glared at. Somewhat treated rudely. Not rude to the point of where they could get in trouble; it’s just that they weren’t as friendly. You could stand in line and watch them talk to the white person ahead of you, but then when your turn came, it was, like I said, not even eye contact. Just business as usual. I personally noticed those types of things. Franklin: Sure, yeah. I think, I guess today we might call them microaggresions or something like that, yeah. But they add up, though, don’t they? Curfman: Yes, yes. Franklin: How come you moved out to Benton City? Curfman: The guy that I remarried was raised on a farm in Montana and he wanted farmland. So we moved out there and bought four acres. He was white, so. Franklin: He felt that—was that—not to pry too much, but that was kind of a stir at that point, interracial marriage? Curfman: Yes, yes, yes. Franklin: Did you ever receive any negative attention because of that? Curfman: I think so. Actually, I can remember this one time not too long after we moved out there, we were out kind of moving the irrigation pipe around, and this neighbor from around the corner drove up and introduced herself to him. It was almost like she thought me and my kids were his hired help. So she was talking directly to him, inviting him over, you know. We’d like to get to know you, blah, blah, blah. To this day, I really think that—I’m sure after we were there for a while, she found out I was his wife. But at the time she was talking to him, to this day, I think she thought we were just hired help. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Wow. This would’ve been—‘70s? ‘80s? Curfman: This was ’76, ’78, yeah, in the late ‘70s. Franklin: How did your family—how was your family, how did they adjust to the marriage? Were they more welcoming? The black community, was it more welcoming? Curfman: Oh, yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, my grandparents and I had an aunt in Pasco at the time, they had no problems. My parents were still in the South. Of course, we didn’t go there and visit. I felt—a couple times I went back and visited, I felt like I had a couple uncles that treated me kind of cold, and I think it was because I was married to a white guy. They kind of took that personally. Franklin: Because that would’ve caused probably much more of a stir in the South. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Especially among that generation, right? Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Because that had been illegal for quite—not only just a social taboo but it’d been illegal until—some states didn’t even change that until the ‘90s. Curfman: Right, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So, you mentioned that you—so you were 222 chemical analyst and you worked shift work. I’m wondering if you could describe a typical work day. Curfman: Basically, we’d get to work in the morning, we’d have a little short safety meeting. Ahead of time, we’d be assigned stations. We had different stations, like if you were going to be analyzing plutonium. We had different procedures. So I might be assigned to run strontiums tonight; someone else might be assigned to do H-pluses tonight. So you just came in, you know. You expected the shift ahead of you to restock the supplies at the end of their shifts. Sometimes that was done; sometime it wasn’t. So that was always kind of a sore spot, because our analyses were timed, in a sense. Operations would need the results in a timely manner so they could empty a tank or adjust a tank. And if we came in and had to—if the other shift left samples undone and we came in and had to get our supplies together before we could even start, then that just—kind of a snowball effect. So there was always tension between the shifts, depending on if that shift did their housekeeping before they left, before the next shift came in. But as a rule, we were almost like a family. We did a lot of—for instance, on graveyard, we would do like a communal breakfast on our breaks. Sometimes there was times where people didn’t want to do breakfast; they wanted to take a nap during their lunch hour. So it was one of those things where, I’m going to sleep for 30 minutes; you wake me up. Of course, we had those little clocks we could set. So we just took care of each other. Franklin: Yeah, how would you describe your relationships with your coworkers? Curfman: Oh, awesome. Yeah, we did lots of things together. Went to Richland basketball games, we followed the Bombers. A lot of parties at our homes. So, yeah, we did. It was good. Franklin: You became very close with your fellow coworkers. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And did you feel a sense of belonging with your coworkers? Curfman: Absolutely, yes. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your supervisors or management? Curfman: I’ve always had a good relationship. When I was on shiftwork, one of my first managers was female, Louise Gray. I think she was—I’m pretty sure she was the first female manager in the laboratory. And we would have—we would go to her house for things and we would do things away from work, like Halloween parties and things like that. So we had a good relationship. Once a month, on our long change there for a while, we would always get together as a group for dinner, like at Chinese Gardens and things like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Curfman: So it was always fun. Franklin: Oh, that’s wonderful. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: And then you became an engineering tech in ’78. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Where was that at? Curfman: That was at Plutonium Finishing Plant. Franklin: At PFP. Curfman: Mm-hm. Franklin: How long did you—did you work there, then, for the rest of your career? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And what is an engineering tech? What does that mean? Curfman: We kind of assisted the engineers. We would go out—I mean, I would go out and take readings off the tanks in the morning and bring them back to them so that they could do their engineering data calculations and things like that. So that they could in turn tell operations what adjustments they needed to make. So, a lot of data analysis, data gathering. Versus in the lab, I was doing hands-on work. Franklin: Were your—I imagine, kind of growing up in Tennessee, you know, Hanford may have been the last place you thought you might have ended up, working out with plutonium. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: How did your family react to your—did they ever express any concern? Were they proud? Were they just really kind of curious? Curfman: Well, they were afraid when I had to apply for my Q clearance, and at that time the FBI went to your house. So of course, the FBI went to their house in Tennessee and it scared them to death, because what is she doing? [LAUGHTER] What did she do? But I had somewhat of the same reaction from neighbors in the Tri-Cities when the FBI would go talk to them. I actually had a neighbor mention that here just a couple months ago, that when I moved in—well, it wasn’t when I moved where I am now, but just when they do the every five- or ten-year update, they had gone and talked to this one neighbor and he was saying, like, scared me to death! You know. And that was not too long ago, you know. Franklin: Wow. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. And then in 1982, you were promoted to shift supervisor, lab manager. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And you were the first African American woman lab manager on Site. Curfman: That’s true, yeah. Franklin: Was that—how’d you find out that you were the first? Curfman: You know, right now it’s just from talking to people and looking back. I’d like to find that out for sure, because I think it would be a legacy to leave to my grandkids. We know that Louise Gray was the first female. I know that a guy by the name of Jim Burden was the first black male. So right now, just from talking, I can’t think of anybody before me. Franklin: And, certainly, even if you weren’t the first, you were one of—a groundbreaking thing. So you moved into management. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: And how was that different? How’d you adapt, and what did you do to adapt to that role? Curfman: Of course, a lot of classes and a lot of training. It was a struggle for a while, because a lot of the people that worked for me had degrees like they may not have necessarily been scientists or chemists but they might have been the next teacher or some other profession where they had a degree. So I think there was some resentment sometimes when not only was I a black female but I didn’t have a degree. So, you know, so that was, just depending on the people. Franklin: Did you ever have any difficulties managing—being a minority, managing largely a majority white workforce? Curfman: Yes, uh-huh. Yeah. Franklin: Could you describe that? Curfman: Well, you know, certainly there were—of course we had the cultural differences, but I think more than me being black, it was more me not having a degree. Even though I had white counterparts. The male manager that hired me didn’t have a degree. There were a lot of them out there, didn’t have—they did have nuclear experience from the Navy, but they did not have degrees. But it seemed—there seemed to have been a lot of emphasis on me not having a degree. Which, I kind of resented that. I’m like, look at him, look at him, look at—you know. Franklin: Right, I mean, as long as you can do the—I mean, seniority experience counts for quite a bit. Curfman: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yeah, that makes sense though. I mean, you know. Certainly something to point to. Curfman: And it did start—I’m sorry. Franklin: No, no, go ahead. Curfman: It did start being less of a problem, because at one point—and I never saw it in writing, but it was said that eight years’ experience was equal to a four-year degree. So, as I got more experience, then it was kind of like, well, in a sense she does. Franklin: Right, and I feel like you kind of see that on job postings, where it’s like x number of experience or a degree in the field. Curfman: Yes, yes, uh-huh. Franklin: And so you were—what kinds of—I mean, as much as you can talk about it, I know PFP there was a lot of secret work going on out there, but what kinds of—what kind of work did you supervise? What kind of work was going on in the lab? Curfman: Okay, basically, what we did is analyze samples from the operations. You know, they’d send us a sample and they’d want to know if it was, how many grams of plutonium was in it. So we would analyze it and then send the results back to them, and based on the results, they’d say, we’re good, or no, we need to add more acid, or no, we need to add more base. Things of that nature. Or we need to empty the tank or we can’t empty the tank. We can’t empty the tank—it’s full, but we can’t empty it because the results aren’t what they need to be. So it was—so we were quality control, mainly. Yeah. Franklin: Ah, that makes sense. And you did that until 2010? Curfman: Yes, but I went from shift manager—in 1983, I was shift manager, and I can’t remember but I was promoted throughout the years in different levels of management. And when I left in—well, I actually left in 2007 because of a health issue. But when I left, I was a Level 3 which was the top laboratory manager. Franklin: Oh, wow. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Curfman: Challenging was every ten years they would change contractors, so it was always challenging to learn new management, what the expectations were, new procedures. I had bargaining unit people working for me, so it was always a challenge to work with the unions and answer grievances and things like that. It seems like there was always people that if they could have you in a grievance meeting, they wouldn’t have to be in the lab working. So sometimes you felt like people created problems just to get out of work. Rewarding was having come from where I came from, to be in the position that I was in. I was 1994 Westinghouse Women’s History Month nominee. So there were things to be proud of. There was a lot of—I did a lot of things, like I represented the laboratory in Washington, DC and won a black national caucus. Represented the caucus at universal Washington black engineers’ conference. Things like that. Franklin: Oh, wow. Yeah, those are—those really are rewarding aspects. Did you still have family in east Pasco for quite a while after you moved here? Curfman: Mm-hm. Franklin: Did you go to attend any church events or community events in east Pasco? Curfman: Oh, yes, uh-huh. I was librarian for East Pasco Church of God for quite a few years. So, yes. Franklin: Is that a predominantly black church? Curfman: It was at the time, yes. Franklin: At the time. What role did church play in the black community? Curfman: Very important role, and actually, the majority of the churches now are still pretty much black. Morning Star is one of the—used to be one of the biggest in east Pasco, and it’s probably predominantly still black. New Hope, predominantly still black. So, yeah, I don’t know. Franklin: What about did you go to any cultural celebrations like Juneteenth, or— Curfman: Oh, yes, uh-huh, yeah. I actually worked with the Juneteenth committee, with the contestants for Miss Black Afro-American—Miss Juneteenth. I was part of that committee with Eloise Williams. Did a lot of that. What else? A lot of church activities. A lot of involvement with—we used to have what was called confederated choir where once a month, the first Sunday of the month, all the churches would go to a different church at 3:00 in the afternoon and all the different choirs would sing. So that was always fun. A lot of church picnics and potlucks and things like that. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard of, I think Pastor Wilkins was telling me about that, the all-church meeting. Curfman: Yes. Franklin: What’s special about Juneteenth? Why is that such a big event for African Americans? Curfman: Because we feel like that was when we were really freed. It wasn’t July 4th. So it’s just something to be proud of. We don’t seem to be—the younger generation seems to be losing it; we don’t seem to be getting as large a crowd as we used to. It has diversified. We get a lot of white people that attend, which we like that. You know, we don’t have an issue with that. But we like to keep it going, something that the community can be proud of. Franklin: Did people bring—or did you or others that migrated from the South bring any other traditions with them, like food, especially? Curfman: Oh, yeah. Yeah, my family in particular, pecan pie is a big deal for my entire family. But just—I have a sister in Pasco now, I mean, every day she still cooks the soul food, the greens and the cabbage and the black-eyed peas type of thing, because that’s how she was raised. And my grandmother and my aunt and people like that, I think most of the old-timers cook like that. They brought that. Barbecue, of course. Chicken—fried chicken. Franklin: Yes. Very, very, very good. How was your civil rights experience here different from Memphis? Curfman: I just feel like it was more freedom. You know, I can remember coming home from church—my mother worked in a restaurant where it was all white. She was a cook. So if we went to visit her, we had to go to the backdoor. She had to go in the backdoor; she couldn’t come in the front. She used to not like us to call at work because the phone was out front. If we called her, she’d have to go out front, and her bosses didn’t want the black people out front. So that was always an issue. If we had some issue at school and we had to call her, you know. I can remember coming home from church once and it was really hot outside. We cut across the park that was a whites-only park, and we were drinking water from the water fountain, and we saw the police, they were all like, hey, hey, hey! There was like three or four of us and we ran home. Went home, changed clothes, messed up my hair. Because if the police came by looking for us, we didn’t want to look like we had just came from church. We didn’t want to look like the same people. So coming from that environment and coming here, and going to any park. There were a lot of barbecues back during that—a lot of things in the parks and there were other people besides black people. When I moved on Wright Street I had a neighbor that was a white lady, and she was real strong German, still had a real strong German accent. And she was just lovely to us. She baked cookies for my babies and was just, wow, this is pretty neat. I mean, she was really nice. So that would be something that I could write home and tell my mom: I have this white neighbor and she’s really nice. Franklin: That’s quite different. Yeah, that’s a very striking difference. Curfman: Yeah. Franklin: Let’s see here. Right there. Could you describe the ways in which the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Curfman: Yes, because we couldn’t—for instance, when they do the background checks, and I’ve had family or neighbors talk about the FBI coming asking questions, I could tell them it had to do with work, but I couldn’t really tell them why. It didn’t impact the work that much, other than we knew what was secret and what wasn’t, because we had to stamp things secret and we knew what we could talk about and not talk about. I think it was a little better when I was out there, we were starting to lean a little more towards closing down and doing cleanup, versus the people back during construction, as to why were building this plant. The secret, when I was there, the secret stuff came down to analysis. We didn’t want to say what our analysis was, kind of thing, versus what we were doing. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Curfman: I think I would like them to know that opportunities are there. I feel like I’m an example of it. I came from Tennessee, segregated community, no degree and went to work at Hanford and retired at the top of, you know, the management chain. And I do still have family right now that that’s something that—because I still have family in Tennessee that’s doing domestic work and working in restaurants. So, to them, I’m a success story. Franklin: Is there anything else that you wanted to say in regards to race and your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Curfman: Not really. I can’t think of anything in specific. Just that I think you have to work harder than anybody else, and I definitely felt like I had to work harder. I had to take more classes. I felt like I had to take more classes than anybody else. I actually had one manager one time tell me, well, no, we need to let someone else go; you go to too many classes. But the opportunity was there, was presented to me, and I took that opportunity. So, yeah. Franklin: Like, you kind of had to compensate extra? Curfman: Yes. Franklin: For being African—a black female. Curfman: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Franklin: Well, Liz, thank you very much for a very enlightening interview. I really appreciate you telling your experience and your accomplishments. Curfman: Thank you. Franklin: Awesome. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 222-S Laboratory 200 Area 200 East Plutonium Finishing Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1968- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1968-2007 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Liz Curfman Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) West Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Civil rights Civil rights movements Affirmative action Basketball Description An account of the resource Liz Curfman moved to the Tri-Cities area in 1968. Liz Curfman worked on the Hanford Site from 1968-2007. Description A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/16/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F67ab2275c27d2eb35de0d2ee444059a8.jpg 3cf5eafd07df622c79a7ce766d795c94 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff03c6f62ec6ecbb75d2e152e69b0a0cf.mp4 cca508797901a36664fbb38e718cd250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lloyd Chalcraft Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Chalcraft_Lloyd Chalcraft: Does this station go into Seattle? Camera man: No. Bauman: No. This is in Eastern Washington, I guess. Camera man: Yeah. This will get to-- Chalcraft: Why I asked that of which it's in, my brother lives in Seattle. Camera man: It will all be available online. Bauman: Yeah. And we can get you a copy. Camera man: I'm recording. Bauman: OK. We're going to go ahead and get started. Can you hear me OK? Chalcraft: I'm ready, just as long as I can hear you. What you're asking, see. Bauman: OK. Let's start by having you say your name, and if you could spell it also. Chalcraft: Lloyd-- OK. Lloyd Robert Chalcraft. Bauman: OK, great. And my name is Robert Bauman, and today's date is August 20, right, of 2013. Chalcraft: My hearing is a little holding me back. I can hear you, but you're a real quiet voice. Bauman: OK. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. Chalcraft: Yeah, that's correct. I mean, do I got to OK that? Bauman: No, that's OK. Well. Let's start if you could, by having you-- Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Could you tell us about your family and how your family-- Chalcraft: Got here? My family came to Richand, Washington in 1910 from Idaho. My granddad homesteaded in Idaho, and they came into Richland in 1910. And I can go into quite a little history there. My family, my uncle, my mother's brother was the first boy to die in World War I in the war. He was the first one to die in Richland in World War I. And I got a great grandmother buried down in this cemetery. She was buried there in 1917. Well, I got a lot a relatives between here and Kennewick. Bauman: What brought them to Richland? What brought your family to Richland? Chalcraft: What brought them to Richland? My granddad was up in Rexburg, Idaho on a farm, and they still got the land. My mother couldn't breath and they came down for a dry climate for my mother. And they came down here in a covered wagon from Idaho in 1910. And what do want? You want to continue on? Then, my mother graduated from Richland high school in 1918. She played basketball there, and then there was Uncle Frank. Bauman: And what was your mother's name and your grandparent's name? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What was your mother's name and your grandparent's name. Chalcraft: Her maiden name? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: Jamison. Her grandmother's buried down here across from Hapo. Her grandma Davidson, and well, I got a lot of relatives buried and kept between here and Kennewick. Bauman: Did her family have a farm here, then? Chalcraft: Did what? Bauman: Did they have a farm? Chalcraft: In Richland? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: Yes. Well, my grandparents had a farm here. We had a farm here, and my uncle had a farm here. We had four different farms. Granddad had a big cherry orchard. Where his orchard was is where that locksmith is on Van Giesen. That was a part of their orchard. That was a prune orchard only it had cherries there. I went to school myself. I went to school here eight years, where now that little grade school is here. It used be called Richland Grade School, but it's not what's out down there south of Richland. Later in life, my boy played basketball for Richland. My boy, he was on the Richland State Basketball Champion when they beat Pasco. Do you remember that? For the state basketball. My boy, he played football and basketball for Richland High School. I graduated from Kennewick High School. See, we moved out. The government come in and took all this land over, and we moved to Kennewick. Bauman: And how old were you then? Chalcraft: I was about eighth grade. Bauman: And what do you remember about that time? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What do you remember about that when you first heard that the government was going to come in 1943? Chalcraft: People were pissed. People were mad cause they come in here and took this land over. They practically stole the land. I mean, people were really shook up. Do you know I mean? They didn't know what was going on. It was like an invasion. You seen army trucks, the DuPont surveyors. I saw the plane that I think this guy-- they flew over this big scientist to pick this area out. I don't know if I would guarantee it, but they were looking for a place of vacant land. And that Columbia River is the key. I remember that plane flew over. There was a Navy base in Pasco, but this plane was a big transport plane. These scientist were looking over that area. Bauman: And do you know how much money you're family got for land? Chalcraft: For the place? Bauman: Yeah, how much money your family got? Chalcraft: They had a farm there with cherries. My family, we had three or four families. My granddad had that big orchard. They gave him $13,000 for a whole complete cherry orchard. They literary stole the land, which is here or there. We got $7,000 for our little place. It's on the corner-- we lived on the corner of Sanford and Van Giesen. Bauman: And how big was your place? How many acres? Chalcraft: It was 10 acres. My granddad, I think, was-- I've forgotten now exactly. 25 or 30 acres. Bauman: And what was his name? Chalcraft: TJ Chalcraft. Thomas Chalcraft. That was my dad's father. Then my granddad lived here. When they come down from Rexburg's, he opened a blacksmith's shop in 1910. Jamison, Hershel Jamison. Bauman: Oh, OK. Uh-huh. And so did your farm also have cherries on your farm? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Did you grow cherries? Chalcraft: Yeah. We had cherries and asparagus. I've cut the damn asparagus. Bauman: Hard work. Chalcraft: Yeah. It kept me from dilly dallying. I was just a kid in school. Yeah. A lot of things-- my dad went to a federal land bank meeting in Prosser that night. And he come back to Mary and says, our government is going to take this property over and nobody believed him. About February 1st, or the approximate time, well, everybody started getting letters from the government. This property is under eminent domain, or whatever. There's another wording for it, but they're going to take all this property. By the way, in that school down here, that little grade school, they closed that. I got out of school a month early because the government took it over to make office space for it. And there was a schoolhouse where Carnation used to be, two story. I watched three years and they built that. This in before Hanford. There was a two story school there. There was a duplicate out here at White Bluffs Hanford. Everything and the toilets were outside. Bauman: So when did you move off the land then? What time in 1940? Chalcraft: Well, we moved off right away. We moved to Kennewick, my folks did. Let's see. We moved right away. They had to move because the government started moving them. You know, you don't understand. That's been 65 years ago. I get a little bit-- those numbers don't quite-- well, it was in '43 or '45. Well, hell no. The bomb was out here. [INAUDIBLE] is the one who built the Hiroshima bomb. So they dropped that bomb in '45, didn't they? So we moved out before that period. Well, we had to. About '43, I can't remember the dates. We moved out probably-- we'd haul over to Kennewick--my folks bought property on Kennewick Avenue. Are you acquainted with Kennewick? See, I own that Jiffy car wash. That's what's some of our land is when we move from Richland to Kennewick. Maybe you've had a car washed. It's isn't like-- I own the land or the building. I don't own the car wash. Hulberts have that. Bauman: Did you go to school in Kennewick? Chalcraft: No, I didn't. Which is immaterial. See, I went to school in Richland for eight years, and then I went to school in Kennewick for four years. Bauman: What do you remember about going to school in Richland? Do you remember any of the teachers, or how big-- Chalcraft: I had good teachers. I actually learned more from Mrs. Randolph in reading than most of these kids. Some of these kids go to school and they can't even read now. She was a little crippled lady named Randolph. And she taught us first grade. They had pretty good schools here. Actually, they did. And they told us you had to be a citizen in the United States before you could vote. Bauman: Did you walk to school or was there a school bus? Chalcraft: We had a bus. We had a bus. See, I lived about two miles down to Richland on Van Giesen down to Richland. We had a school bus. Yeah. They had three or four school buses. Bauman: And do you remember any of your neighbors? Chalcraft: Oh, yeah. Carlsons and Ericksons and Rudes. There was a lot of Ericksons. I think there was more Swedish people that lived in Richland than any other relative. Some of their homes-- My grandad helped build some homes here in 1918 that are still standing. Then, all the Swede's had pretty nice homes here. Maybe you're Swede. Are you a Swede? Bauman: No. Chalcraft: But anyway, the Swede's are a real progressive type people. OK, a little deal here. The boy, this cook, this vet's place down here, this cook Erickson, the name of the veterans' and Erickson was one of the sons of one of the people that lived here. And he went into the service, and he got shot down over the Mediterranean sea during the war. This little town had a lot of boys. We had, I can think, Don Culp was on the Arizona. He lived. His folks, well, his aunt was engaged to my uncle. But he was on the Arizona. Tommy Van Poulsen was on the California. This was at Pearl Harbor. The Mosier boy, he was on Guam. He got captured by the Japs. He was a prisoner of war for the total war. But Don Culp come off the Arizona and he went back to sea on a destroyer. And a storm come off the Philippines and they drowned. And Tommy Van Poulsen used to swim that river all the time. He swam off the Californian and got out. They were there where the Walmart has gone. This little town had a lot of people in the service compared for the population. Tom [? Handbe, ?] he lived in parts of Richland. He was killed in Normandy. Bauman: So how many brothers and sisters did you have? Chalcraft: I got one brother, no sisters. Bauman: Older? Was he older or younger? Was he older than you or younger? Chalcraft: He's 16 years younger. They thought she had a tumor. I mean, there was no kids between, you know what I mean, between-- 16 years olds, went to school. Hell, I was starting high school or last when he was born. But he lives in Seattle now. Bauman: So were you born in Richland, then? Chalcraft: Actually, I was born in Lady Lourdes in Pasco. I understand then there was no hospitals in Richland. And there was no hospitals in Kennewick. Mine was born in Kennewick, but there was a midwife. The only hospital here was in Pasco, Lady Lourdes. See, I was born in '29, but that was the only-- my brother was born at the Lady Origin, Pasco. My boy was born in Richland. I got a son that played basketball for Richland. And he was born in the Kadlec Hospital down here. He played against Pasco when they played-- I don't know if you were around here, Pasco and them played for the state championship. Bauman: So the community of Richland, when you grew up, do you remember any of the businesses that we're here at the time or anything like that? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Do you remember any of the businesses that we're here? Chalcraft: Oh, yes. We had Ralton's Drugstore. John Dam had a store, and that park out there is named after John Dam. [? Yiddick ?] had a store here. Hugh Van [? Dyne ?] had the tavern. And Rex Bell had a service station. I can remember, I could go down the street and Phil Charmin, he was a barber, and he's buried right beside my dad down this whole cemetery. And as you go down to the park, there's a brick building sitting there. It's two story. And the bank got in trouble. The banker went to jail in Walla Walla, because in 1930 the bank went bust. And at that time it was state controlled. See, federal took it after Roseville come in, but the banker went to jail. He went to Walla Walla. Bauman: What was his name? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Remember his name? Chalcraft: Yup. Nelson. You know what I mean? I don't know if his brother's still around or not, but anyway this was back in 1930. I don't know if it was big or whatever. The bank was closed when I-- Bauman: Your father was at some point then on the board of directors-- Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Your father was on the board of directors of the-- Chalcraft: He was on the-- Bauman: --federal land bank, or something like that. Chalcraft: Yeah. If you worked-- well, he's kind of a officer with a blind bank. We had a chicken hatchery we used to hatch baby chickens to besides our farm. Bauman: And your farm, you grew mostly cherries and asparagus? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: On your farm, you grew mostly cherries and asparagus. Chalcraft: Yeah, we did that. I picked lots of cherries and cut asparagus. These kids nowadays would think that was torture. Bauman: Do you remember any special community events? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Do you remember special community events or gatherings, picnics, any of those sorts of things. Chalcraft: Any special what? Bauman: Special events. Community events. Any celebrations the community had or anything like that growing up. Chalcraft: Not really. Not here. Most of the celebrations were in Kennewick. You know in this little town, small little town-- Oh, yeah. There's a boy named Shiftner. He was in the death march out at Carregador. I think it was Shiftner. There was quite a few soldiers. I still don't remember them all that-- this Comstock, there's a street here in Richland. I don't know if that's-- I think he was from Pasco are Richland, but he died in the service I think. See, this park is named after John Dam across from the federal building. And John Dam had a grocery store here. There were two grocery stores here. And they had a place they made ice. You know, everybody didn't have something to make ice, but they'd freeze this water and make ice. And people would get ice out of it. Ice house. And Phil Charmin, the barber, used to run that. Bauman: What sorts of things, growing up, what sorts of things did you do for fun? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What sorts of things did you do for fun growing up? Chalcraft: What did we do for fun? Well, we'd swim. We'd swim in the irrigation ditch or whatever. And where uptown Richland was right now, that was a swamp. There was mud that deep. And where uptown Richland is there was an irrigation ditch running through it. That ditch still runs. We'd go down there. It wasn't very deep, but it was a place to go swimming. We called it swimming, because we were told not to go in the Columbia River when we was kids. Well, that river was cold then, because there was no much dams below, you understand? More free flowing. It mad a difference. Bauman: Did you do much fishing or hunting? Chalcraft: Yeah. Hunting pheasant here was good. It was good pheasant hunting. There was no deer here, but there used to be-- we know it well. We hunted pheasant and the ducks. Oh, yeah, a lot of that, cause this all was asparagus field and open. People from Richland would get shook up when the people from Kennewick would come over and shoot their pheasant. [INAUDIBLE] But there was good hunting here, and everybody knew everybody and go hunting. But you'd normally need a dog. And that asparagus is tall, and you damn near needed a dog to get your pheasants. One time an airplane landed down in that pasture. What the hell-- where the riding academy used to be. The plane landed out there. That was another, well, it wouldn't be too important, but I remember everybody went down to steal gas out of the plane. Somebody said that burnt their motors up. I don't know, that aviation gas. Bauman: When you were growing up-- Chalcraft: I played a little basketball. Nothing big. Bauman: When you were growing up, did the farm you grew up on, did you have electricity. Chalcraft: Oh, yes. We had electricity. But when we first moved we had a hand pump, then we got electricity come in. Bauman: What about a telephone? Did you have a telephone. Chalcraft: Yeah. And the neighbors-- we had a phone, but a lot of neighbors didn't. They'd come over and borrow your phone. A lot of them wouldn't even offer to help pay the bill, but they'd use the phone. In them days, Mrs. Meredith, you had to go through a telephone operator. And Mrs. Meredith, she was kind of the-- and she knew all the gossip. But she was pretty god darn good though for emergencies. People would call in an you know what I mean? Then Brown Telephone in Kennewick bought them out. I guess they owned that at that-- Bauman: Now, did you also work at Hanford at some point? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Did you work at Hanford at some point. Chalcraft: I did, yeah, 20 years. Bauman: Where did you work? What area? Chalcraft: I worked in the reactors. I got cancer. I'm fighting cancer right now. Bauman: When did you work at Hanford and which reactors did you work in? Chalcraft: I worked at all of them. Bauman: And what years? When did you start? Chalcraft: I worked with the reactors. I was nothing too important out there, but I served a-- And then I got drafted in the army. I went to war. During the Korean, I got drafted. I was working though, 'til I got drafted in the army. Bauman: And what sort of work did you do out there? Chalcraft: Oh, different work. Handled uranium and all that. It was just, you know what I mean? I've done better investing. I wasn't an engineer type. I've done pretty well as an investor. Mostly these people sit on their butt around here, and maybe I shouldn't be saying that. That's probably getting cocky. But anyway, these houses sold cheap around here in Richland. These duplexes are selling for $7,000. I had bought one. I sold it here a while back for $130,000. But you know, that was time goes along. But the government practically gave these houses away. This was after Hanford produced the bomb. But these ranch houses, all of them went real-- government unloaded them pretty cheap. I've seen a lot of changes here. Bauman: I'm sure. What are some of the changes you've seen? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What are some of the changes that you've seen? Chalcraft: All these houses all over. Well, yeah, what else? More people. You understand, Richland was a very small town, and you had to count the farms. The town or Richland itself was very-- well, I better there was over 100 people here. Maybe a little bit more, but I didn't live in Richland. See, we had the farms around it. All the Swede's had homes. They were good farmers. Bauman: So you worked at Hanford in what, the '40s and '50s? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: You worked at Hanford in the 1940s, 1950s? Chalcraft: I went to work there in 1950. 1950 in the fire department. I worked in the fire department for a while out there. Then I worked in reactors. I'll tell you a little story. Before the government-- the day the government come in and bought this property, we played ball. I was going to Richland grade school. We went out to White Bluffs and played basketball. And about a few days later, the word came down that the government was taking it over. You understand that Hanford, Richland, one thing probably they know, but I know, there were usually cemeteries in White Bluffs and Hanford. The government dug all of those up. You understand why? You think about it? How could they let people go there if there's top secret stuff? How could they let people go out there and wander around the cemetery. There'd be all kinds of people wandering around, wouldn't there? The government removed all of them bodies. Some of the families got the bodies. But most of the bodies were moved to Prosser. And then they were going to dig up this cemetery in Richland but they decided they didn't need to. I had people buried in there. My dad's buried down there in this cemetery. My mother and dad were divorced. My mother is buried on that by-pass. But anyway. Bauman: I wonder if you have any other memories or stories from growing up in Richland that you haven't shared yet that you want to talk about. Chalcraft: Hey, gotta go. You think of a lot this stuff after you've stopped. OK, I'll tell you a little story athletic-wise. The bombers, there was no bombers. Let's go back. When I played basketball in high school before Hanford, they called them the Bronx, The Richland Bronx. And the colors were black and red. And now, they're green and gold. OK, I'm just telling you what happened. They were called the Richland Bronx. Then what happened, when Richland moved in they called them the Beavers. Well, they couldn't call them bombers, you understand? Well, it could've been done. But they call them-- that's after Hanford moved in-- they changed the colors and they called them the bombers. But their colors are green and gold. But when I was in high school, I didn't go to high school. I went up to eighth grade there. But they were the black and red. Then Richland come in and they changed them to green and gold and they called them the beavers. Then after, well, later on, they become the bombers. They couldn't have said bomber, I don't think. Bauman: So when, actually when the government came in 1943 and told you you had to move, did you know why? You know, what was happening? Chalcraft: What was happening? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: It's a good question. No. It was rumor heaven. A lot of people thought they'd come in here for all-- well, to make toilet paper for one thing. Well, anyway. They hit a little natural gas out here on the Horse Heavens. Not Horse Heavens, out there at Bridal Snake. They thought they'd come in, but just that people real naively, understand. You look at it. All that come in here, my god, millions of dollars. Even the army moved trucks in here. Everybody moved in, and they sure as hell didn't bring all that in just to hit natural gas out here. Well, I didn't know until the day when they dropped the bomb. The guy that lived in White Bluffs, he come in and says, I've found out what they built Hanford for. But what they've built is enough to burn those Jap's ass right off. That was his very words. His folks owned property at White Bluffs-- Hanford White Bluffs. And there used to be a little bus that you went from down Richland up to, there they called it, Sagebrush Annie. I was only up there once when I lived here. Until I went to work out there. I was out there at that basketball game. Well, I was just a kid. I didn't drive. And that's quite a ways out there. Most of the people in White Bluffs and Hanford, they went over to Yakima to shop for groceries. There was a story out there in Hanford or White Bluffs. There was a grocery store. There was two high schools out there at that time. Maybe you knew that. And then they merged into one, because you know, I think, yeah. I'm trying to think of different-- I wish sitting in Richland the day they bombed Pearl Harbor, right in Richland at Thayer Drive. And it come over the news that they'd bombed Pearl Harbor. Bauman: On the radio? Was it on the radio? Chalcraft: Yeah, radio, we didn't have TV then. This was '41. That was quite a shock. When they said Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, and I was quite of a history buff. Some of these people still don't know what happened. But I knew we was going to go to war. And they hit Pearl Harbor that day. That's the day Culp got off the Arizona any other boy swam out from the California. Well, I'll tell you a little side story. It didn't fit into Richland. But my uncle was in Pasco, and there was a guy sitting on a bar over there. And my uncle, he was in the Navy, World War I. He thought he was Japanese, and my dad was with him. And he was going to beat the hell out of that Jap. Come to find out, he was a China man. You know what I mean? This is right after Pearl Harbor? There's been a few other people that was picked up here. One or two guys here in this town were out hollering Hail Hitler. The United States Marshall picked one of them and shipped him back to Leavenworth. Nobody bothered him but the day Pearl Harbor was hit, things opened up. They let him, when they were fighting Great Britain, that was a great deal. Germany was beating the hell out of Great Britain. But the day Pearl Harbor was bombed, that changed the atmosphere. This one kid would come to high school and brag about the Germans picking the hell out of the British. But anyway, he shut up after Pearl Harbor. Bauman: So what was Richard like as a place to grow up? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What was Richland like as a place to grow up? Chalcraft: What was Richland like, what? Bauman: As a place to grow up? Chalcraft: It was a kind of a quiet little quaint town. My uncle, he had never drove. He drove a team of horses. He drank a little beer. He trained horses. It wasn't a regular policemen. Bill Perry had a server station here. He was the town Marshall. Things were quite quaint. You know what I mean? There was one guy that got in a fight with a guy, and I guess he died. That was hot news in those days. This guy died from a fistfight. Actually, things were pretty quiet at that time, I guess. But we did go through World War I here. There were two or three boys that got in that one. Bauman: You mentioned earlier some of the businesses in Richland. What about churches? Chalcraft: What? Bauman: Do you remember any churches at the time? Chalcraft: Churches? OK there was a Methodist Church, and a holy roller. I remember they had a holy roller church right in downtown Richland, and they'd get up and role on the floor. One guy was looking through the window, they had curtains over it and somebody pushed the barrel and he rolled right in with the holy rollers. Yeah, there was a Methodist Church right across from where the school was. And I remember when they'd have funerals there. I remember one women died, Mrs. [? Kayler. ?] We remembered that. It was a different name. Well, my grandparents are buried out at that cemetery. There was no Catholic church. The Catholic church was in Kennewick. They had a holy roller church. I guess a-- what's that one? I'm not a great church goer. I went to the Methodist church a little bit. Most of the churches were over in Kennewick. Bauman: Well, is there anything else you want to share? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Anything else you want to say about growing up in Richland? Chalcraft: Growing up now? Bauman: No. Anything else that you want to say about your time growing up in Richland. Chalcraft: About what? Bauman: About your time, your childhood. Chalcraft: Anything else you want to say about it? Bauman: Well, I played a little basketball here. I was no-- my peak come when my son won the-- my son, he was good enough to play. He was on the state champ. He was good enough to get a football scholarship at the University of Montana. He wanted to go to Oregon. Oregon wanted him to go, but they wanted him to go to Columbia Basin and play a year and then go. He didn't get an offer for Washington State or Washington, but he did get an offer from all those big sky, Montana, Idaho, to play ball, football. But in Oregon he kind of-- Oregon says, you go to Columbia Basin. Columbia Basin at that time had a football team if you remember. They wanted him to go over there for one year. He had a chance to go back. I'm bragging a little on his college. He had a chance to go back to one of the big east schools-- they egg head schools. You know what I'm talking about. He was pretty good in grades. But he ended up going to the University of Montana. He could've went to the University of Idaho, but then he got hurt. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today. And share the memories of growing up in Richland. Chalcraft: You know, a lot I've missed or thought about. A few names you hate to bring in, you know what I mean? Now, I have to ask you guys something. Is this going to be the air? Bauman: It could be. Camera man: Right. Parts of it will be. Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Parts of it. Chalcraft: What did he say? Bauman: Parts of it probably will be. Chalcraft: March what? Bauman: Parts of it. Chalcraft: Part, not all of it. Bauman: Right. Chalcraft: Well, that's fine. You always got somebody-- You know, I've been a little-- I'm not too bragging-- but I've been a little successful. And I found out people, if you get a little successful, they'll run you down a little bit. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:11 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 5276 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 1950-1975 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1910-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Chalcraft, TJ Chalcraft, Tom Jamison, Hershel Dam, John Charmin, Phil Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lloyd Chalcraft Description An account of the resource An interview with Lloyd Chalcraft conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--Politics and government. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-18: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/20/2013 DuPont Hunting Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F84ddcb08ced53f3d86ece9ca7b4f7b1f.jpg 7fd790b5d9accb84955b9388d4c24bd5 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb70ea33acbea5a2e61997d72c01fc9e4.mp4 c11cb1423770e67634c3f12e6381c9d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lois Mullen Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lois Mullen Description An account of the resource An interview with Lois Mullen conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc92ffffd868b83f7803db6c6623efe0f.jpg e058f845bd51e15cd49b579eda0c2435 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7f99a36b1e3e178709664ecfb5986abf.mp4 61f347ece4bde47c951d5f718ce9554b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Loren Schmid Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loren Schmid Description An account of the resource An interview with Loren Schmid conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F54cd3ac226c71cfb58dbac14575b96eb.jpg f287161aff407d507797401b6b03f0d5 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1b4d000db44e1cb8761e58f9bedc02ab.mp4 55abe4852274c66ce085092001035e43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Loris Brinkman Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Northwest Public Television | Brinkman_Loris </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Loris Brinkman: L-O-R-I-S and Brinkman is B-R-I-N-K-M-A-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Robert Bauman: Thank you very much. Thanks for letting us talk to you today, I appreciate it. Today's date is October 29, 2013. My name is Robert Bauman and we're conducting this interview in Richland, Washington. So let's start, if you could, Loris, by having you tell us about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, and when did you arrive? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Okay, I was, as I stated before, I spent seven years with Civil Conservation—with the CCCs. And then I got a job with DuPont spent one year at Rosemount Minnesota, and that was from 1942 to '43. So I came out here in September of '43. And I came out here and they sent me out to 200 West. I came out to 200 West, and there wasn't much going on there yet. It was pretty in the beginning part of it. Now they were digging--they were excavating for the 221-T Building. And I think they were probably building on the powerhouse. Well, my first job, they had to get water down there. And there was a water line just north of us, as I recall. And the first thing we had to do is to have a temporary water line, and that was made of wood pipe. And it was laid out, and it was laid out like this, so it made a circle around there so that all the facilities would be able to get water from this water line. And I was given the job of somebody has to follow the work. And there were be places where we'd have to pour some concrete. And it was wood pipe. And wood pipe was certainly new. And so when we got that pretty well taken care of, I was given the job to follow the steam lines. Now as I said, the powerhouse was under construction. And the steam line that came out of the powerhouse was about 16 inches in diameter. And you see, at that time, there was the T Building and the U Building. And the steam lines came out of the powerhouse, which was kind of halfway in between the two. And then one line went up towards the T Building and the other line went down toward the U Building. Well there was construction or excavation being going on at the--I think they called it the 221-T Building. And the steam lines were necessary because they were going to furnish the steam for all the construction there. Now in the steam line, it doesn't sound like a very important job, but we would probably go 300 to 400 feet. And then there would have to be a, what they called an expansion loop there. It would go like this. And that was to take care of the expansion when the steam was in operation. Now the thing that we did was we would construct maybe three--I don't remember--but 300 to 500 feet in length. And then there would have to be a loop to take care of the expansion. And what we would do is to construct a line, and then about midway between these expansion loops, we would cut the line and take out about two or three inches, as I recall. And then they would put chains on there and bring those two together and weld them together. Now the reason for that is that the tension was on there when it was cold. And when they put the steam in the line, the expansion would make the steam line pretty much without tension on it. You get the idea? And along with that steam line, I worked on construction of several permanent buildings that were part of the main construction there. And that was the--we had the laundry and we had the office building, and a few buildings like that. I worked on those, too. Now when the work was all complete, my portion of the work was finished there, I went to the 200 East Area. And I don't really remember what I did there, but I think it was probably similar to what I did over in the West Area. And after about a year's work there, the work that I was doing was pretty well completed. And so I went to--excuse me. See, at my age names don't come quite like they used to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: That’s right, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: But I went to Indiana, to the Indiana Ordinance Works. And I worked there for about a year. And by that time, after completing the work there, I went to the Wilmington head office there, and I worked there for about two and a half years. But you know, after being out here a year, I couldn't quite get this place out of my mind. As we said, if you can last six months, you're going to like it. But many people came out here didn't last six months. When I came out here in the beginning, I was going to--the fellow that I was working with at Rosemount was already out here. And he had a room in Pasco, and I was going to room with him. So when I got out here and I called his number, and I said, I'd like to speak to Hamm. Mr. Hamm terminated last Friday. And there was another man with me and he said, Mr. Brinkman, I don't know anything about Mr. Hamm. I will tell you one thing, it takes a damn good man to stay out here. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, after another year down at Wilmington--or down at Indiana Ordinance Works, I went to Wilmington and I stayed there for about two and a half years. And then there was an opportunity for me to get back out here. I didn't hesitate. I came out here again. Got out here in--I think it was--1948. And I've been here ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What was it about the place that made you want to come back? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: One of the things is the climate. This is ideal climate. We don't have these 40 degree weather that we had in Wisconsin. Once in a while it did get cold here. One time. I was, let’s see—we did have six days of cold weather. And the temperature got as low as minus 26 or 27 degrees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: And that was six days. And then I went out in the evening and oh, I says we have a chinook. A chinook--they called it a chinook when the warm breeze would come in there. And it's chinook. And the temperature went up 40, 50 degrees in the night. So the cold period was over with. But I just like the weather. I like the people that were here. They were people that were out here for one purpose, we've got to get this thing built. We need this in our war. So that was the main thing that I liked out here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Mm-hm. When you first came in 1943, what were your very first impressions of the place? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I really didn't hate the place. A lot of people did. We didn't have very much sunshine. There was about six weeks the sun didn't shine. But I really enjoyed the place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And when you came out here to work, what did you know about the work you were doing or what Hanford was for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, in the first place, you didn't know what we were going to make here. Nobody's--there were a few people that knew, but that was not discussed. We did not discuss what we were going to make here and what it was going to be used for. That was absolutely quiet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember when you found out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes, when I was--I think it was--in Indiana Ordinance Works when they dropped the bomb. Then I knew what we were doing out here. That this was very important. And the bomb was very important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And when you worked out here in 1943, do you remember how much money you made? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes. I made--I think it was--about $85 a week. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And how many hours a week was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, when I first started out here it was nine hours, six days a week. Put in about 54 hours. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And then when you came back in 1948, what sort of job did you have when you came back here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I have to think a little bit on this, on what I did. I don't remember what exactly what the first job was. But my biggest job after getting back here was construction of--supervising, or not really supervising, but seeing that the job was done according to the plans of the tank farm. We had these underground tanks. You see, we had waste, and that waste had lots of plutonium in there. We didn't get it all out. The uranium was changed in--part of it was changed into plutonium. And then that was in the 100 Area. Or--yeah, the B Area and 100 Areas. And then in the 200 Areas they separated the plutonium. And the plutonium was used to make the bomb. And then there we had tank farms. Oh, I'm trying to think how many, 750,000 gallons or something like that. And we usually had 12 steel tanks. And we would dig a hole way down deep. And these tanks were, I think, something like 75 feet in diameter. And we'd pour a concrete base and then we'd build from there. And they would go up about 75 feet. And then when they were all completed, then we'd backfill again. And then we'd have these tanks ready for the waste from the process that was going on there. And I think--I don't remember just how many--but we had maybe three or four tank farms. And I worked on those tank farms. I was known as the tank farm engineer, something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So what did being a tank farm engineer involve? Sort of, supervising? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, you have to have somebody there. We would have a contractor do the work. And we would have to see that it was done properly, check everything that was done. And be very careful about the back filling and that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So how long did you work the tank farms? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh, I think maybe two or three years, probably. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What did you do after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I have to think now. [LAUGHTER] After that, I got involved mostly with--as we call it--the project engineering. And with this place there were always new facilities being created. And we call them a project. Maybe we would design this project and then follow the construction of it. But there was considerable work being done all the time. And I was part of the project engineering work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And so how long in all did you work at Hanford? When did you stop working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Okay. I was 59, and that was in 1971, I think it was. And then I retired. And about a year later, why, they called me and said, would you come out and help us? And I said, no! And then I thought about it a bit and I said, wait a minute, call me tomorrow. I'll think about it. And they called the next day, and I says, I'll come out and work about four months. And you know, I enjoyed it very much. And the next year I went out again for four months. And I did that for four years! Finally I got to the stage where I said, no, I think I've gone long enough. It's now time for me to travel. So after that, why, then my wife and I traveled all over the world. We took three month tours and went around the world, down South America, and that sort of thing. And we loved that very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: I want to go back to when you first came to Hanford in 1943, you mentioned that a lot of people stayed for just a little while and left. What sorts of things were there to do for fun? Was there entertainment available? What sorts of things happened here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, they had a big place down at Hanford itself. They built barracks for people. And they had, well, for one thing in ten days they built a great big building which was the entertainment building. And they had party—or dances and that sort of thing. And they had beer places around. People could buy a big jar of beer. And they had lots of those. They had to have facilities here that would interest people so they would stay. And they spent a lot of money on that to make interests for people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And you said when you first came you--did you stay in Pasco? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: No, let's see, I first stayed up at Grandview. I stayed there and worked back and forth. Then I got a house in Richland. And that was great, then. And I stayed there until I moved out to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: To Indiana? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, Indiana. Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And then when you came back in 1948, where did you--did you move into Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, right in there. I got a house. I had got a house practically right away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What was Richland like as a community in the 1940s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, it wasn't a big town in the 1940s. Oh, you mean before we came out here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: No, I mean when you were here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: All right, when we were here—see, I have to think a little bit. We had— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Woman one: Hello? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: We had a number of stores. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Woman: Hello? That’s okay, I’ll come back later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: But Pasco had stores and Kennewick had stores. And most of the shopping was done over in those areas. But we did, then, we had the C. C. Anderson place here. And that was a place, they had good material in there that you could buy. It wasn't a very big shopping area here, but it was adequate. I would say that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Did you go over to Kennewick and Pasco occasionally, then, to shop? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh, sure. Yeah. And the funny part of it was my daughter, when we got over to Kennewick, she said this is a real city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: It's a little bit different than Richland was. But Richland was being built all the time and adding new facilities, new stores, new houses all the time, until it got to be a pretty good place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: I’ve had a few people I talked to from that period talk about the dust storms. Was that an issue at all that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes, we had dust storms. And when we had a dust storm, we'd close the windows, of course. But there would be dust all over the inside of your house. And that was the thing that sent quite a few people out of here. They'd have a dust storm and then they'd leave. But it didn't bother us, we just took those things in stride. We liked—by that time I liked it here. And when we came back on the second time, we got this house, and right across the street was the school. My wife went over and said, I'm a teacher, I have a master's degree, I would like a job. She got a job as a fifth grade teacher just like that. [LAUGHTER] And she taught there for 23 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And what school was this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: In fifth grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember which elementary school it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, it was Lewis and Clark. And we lived right across the street from there, right on the corner. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Oh, okay, did you have one of the alphabet homes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, H house. And then the time came when we were able to buy that house. And that was wonderful, too. That turned into a good deal for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember how much? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, I paid about $6,000 for it. Then I added. I did some construction on it. I added--enlarged the two bedrooms. And when we sold it, boy, I don't mind saying it, we sold it for $85,000. And made a return of say, like, $76,000 or $77,000. So that was a good thing for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: That's a pretty good deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, it was a very good deal. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: President Kennedy came out here in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. I wonder, were you there? Did you see him when he came at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I sure was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What do you remember about his visit here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I don't remember anything about his speech. He just, as I recall, he emphasized the fact of the importance of this work here. That was probably the main thing. And he tried to make us feel like we were really doing something great for the country. And I guess we were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: You and your whole--were your whole family out there as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh yeah, the whole family was there, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: A very special event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: You see, they--it was wonderful for us to have that school there. [LAUGHTER] Because my wife could go over there and teach and then get back in time. And when I got home the meals were ready. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So I wanted to ask about security at Hanford. Did you have to have special clearance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh yes, yes. Yes, we had to have Q clearance, mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Are there any other events that really stand out in your mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Any what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Any events that stand out in your mind, or things that happened during the time you worked at Hanford that you just thought were really interesting or important? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I should remember, but my mind doesn't function like it should in that case. I don't know that there was anything—important things that we had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: How was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Wonderful, as far as I was concerned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And what was it about working there that made it wonderful for you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, we worked out in the area most the time. And people--we all worked together. That was the thing, I think, that was—that we were all working together, helping to accomplish what we were set out to do there. Now my mind doesn't work quite like it should. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Of the different jobs you had at Hanford, was there one that was a favorite for you, one that you really enjoy the most? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: It wasn't the tank farm. That wasn't it. But I think the part I liked the best was in the latter part, we worked on various projects. And the projects were our projects, so to speak. And we were interested in seeing that those--we probably designed them, worked out the design and then followed the construction of it. And we were just anxious to see how it worked out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet, or that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet, in terms of either working at Hanford or living in Richland, that you think would be important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, as I said, at my age here, my mind doesn't do quite what I hoped it would do. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: You're doing great. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, we just, oh, when we got, as far as the schools are concerned, we had such great sports here. Our basketball team has won the state championship three times. They had won the state championship in football once or twice. And this has just been a very wonderful sports area. We've had quite a few basketball players that played well for colleges. And as I said, we won state championships three times and got second place maybe three or four times. It was just wonderful sports. And we were always--my wife and I were always interested in sports. We would go to the other cities and that sort of thing. My son played on the basketball team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Great. Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us talk to you today. And for sharing your memories. I really appreciate-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: My mind doesn't work quite the way it should right now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: It's working pretty darn well, myself. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Thank you, again. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well I'm sure glad that if I have anything here that will be of some use to you, I'm sure happy to have helped out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Absolutely. Thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:01 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 193 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 East Area 100 Area B Area 200 Area N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1971 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loris Brinkman Description An account of the resource An interview with Loris Brinkman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Loris Brinkman passed away on August 1, 2017. <a href="http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tricityherald/obituary.aspx?n=loris-b-brinkman&pid=186392713">Obituary</a>. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 200 East Area B Area Hanford (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe432dc936185b4193f34dada1571fc04.mp4 d88e1cd2b5fbc7af387dea2d3370d34b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F597191347c2206788f1ea5b0744d2ead.JPG 3e71992845a88984bc7c85915e72c7db Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lorraine Ferqueron Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Victor, are we ready? Victor Vargas: We’re ready. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Ruth Lorraine Fer— Lorraine Ferqueron: Ferqueron. Franklin: Ferqueron. Thank you, Lorraine. On October 18th, 2016. The interview is being conducting on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Lorraine about her experiences growing up in the Richland area and the forced evacuation in 1943. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Ferqueron: My name is Ruth Lorraine Ferqueron. It’s R-U-T-H L-O-R-R-A-I-N-E F-E-R-Q-U-E-R-O-N. Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, let’s start at the beginning. When and where were you born? Ferqueron: Pasco, Washington at Lady of Lourdes, May 7th, 1931. Those days, they kept the mother and the baby for ten days. So I came to Richland when I was ten days old. Franklin: And where in Richland did your family live? Ferqueron: Well we had—during the time, we had three different farms. One was out by basically where Battelle is now. I can’t really tell you exactly because I don’t have any points to base it from except the river. Franklin: Sure, but somewhere where the Battelle campus is now, okay. Ferqueron: Mm-hmm. Actually, that area was called Fruitdale when I was little. Franklin: Mm-hmm. I’ve seen that on some— Ferqueron: You’ve seen the Fruitdale? Franklin: --On some maps. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Some early maps—like ‘30s and ’40s maps. So you said your family had three farms—three acres? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Three areas that they farmed. Ferqueron: Three areas of farms. Franklin: Three areas of farms. So one’s in Fruitdale, or PNNL campus. Ferqueron: Yeah, but I was very young when that was going on. And then we moved in to—closer to Richland and had a farm up below where Tagaris is now. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And then the last one was out on—is it Wellsian Way that goes—not Wellsian, the road that goes to West Richland. Franklin: Van Giesen? Ferqueron: Below the Tri-City Court Club was—we had 118 acres there. Franklin: Is that Van Giesen? Ferqueron: Huh? Franklin: That goes to—is it Van Giesen that goes to— Ferqueron: Yeah, Van Giesen. Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: Right below the Tri-City Court Club. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: We had that until 1943, when we were forced out. Franklin: Can you describe your memory of that event? Ferqueron: That day? Yeah. I remember it. I was 12. These two men came to the door and told my father that they had declared eminent domain and they were taking the land. We had I think it was about three weeks to get out. There was seven of us children. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: We had a dairy farm there—well, my parents did, of course. I think we had 27 cows that Dad had to sell for five dollars apiece. Franklin: And I imagine that was pennies on the dollar. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, yes. And then we were given—Dad was given—everyone was given, I think, $5,000 for their property, no matter what size or anything. That was actually owed to the bank, so we never—my father and mother didn’t have any money. And we moved to Finley. Franklin: And then what did your parents—what did your family do in Finley? Ferqueron: Well, Dad did a lot of trucking and we had a small farm there. Franklin: But more like a truck farm? Ferqueron: Yeah, well, we had peppermint. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And asparagus. We had, I think, three cows that Dad kept. Two or three cows. My brother could tell you that more than I could. And we raised asparagus. Franklin: And how long did that go on, did your parents do that? Ferqueron: Until I was 15. We moved to the Richland Wye. Franklin: And why did your parents moved to the Richland Wye? Ferqueron: Dad went into working in construction. We left the farm and farming. We took one cow and moved to the Richland Wye—what’s now the Richland Wye. Franklin: Your favorite cow? Ferqueron: Yeah, probably. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did he work for Hanford, or in— Ferqueron: No, no. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: The only one in our family that worked for Hanford that I’m aware of is my grandfather. My grandfather had a farm here. His name was Augustus Long. He was the ditch back rider. A ditch back rider is someone who rides the irrigation ditches and checks it out and makes sure everything’s going fine. Started doing that on horseback. And then, I guess, the irrigation district or somebody bought him this truck to ride it in. After they took him off—took his land, he went to court, actually, and they paid him off. Franklin: Hmm. Ferqueron: Because they had to, to keep—it was all secret, you know. Everything at Hanford—nobody knew what was going on, even the people that worked there. He went to work for them for a short time, just to show them where everything was. He knew all the county—all the boundaries, and all the lines and where everything was. So he worked for them for a while—short time. Then he moved to Grandview. Franklin: Did he receive more money in the settlement because he took them to court? Ferqueron: No, no. Franklin: No? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: He just had to go through the extra step. Ferqueron: Yeah, he got extra because he worked for them for that short time. And then because he got as far as the court in Spokane, and they paid him off. In other words, they bribed him out of it. Franklin: Oh, so, but did he receive more money in the end for going to court? Ferqueron: Yeah, he probably did. I have no idea how much, but he probably did, yeah. Franklin: Sure. And how long—do you know approximately how long he worked for the government—for Hanford? Ferqueron: Oh, it was a matter of two or three months, probably. Franklin: Oh, okay, so not too significant. Ferqueron: Yeah, I don’t really remember, but it wasn’t long. Franklin: But he was part of that transition, though, right? Kind of showing them the lay of the land. Ferqueron: Yeah, he said the hardest thing he ever had to do was cut off the water to all those farms, and they just— Franklin: Watch them die. Ferqueron: Watch them die. And bulldozed under—they were actually bulldozed. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, many of them were. Ferqueron: That’s why—I hear people today say, well, it was a sand pile when we got here. Well, of course it was. Franklin: Yeah. That helps erase that evidence of human habitation. Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. Franklin: And make sure people don’t want to come back. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—so your father—or your grandfather was the only person that worked for— Ferqueron: Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s true, because—it was a very traumatic thing, because one day I had my complete family here. And three weeks later, they were scattered all over the state. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: And I lost—I could walk from our house to grandpa’s house. And then they went up to Grandview, I mean, and we just didn’t get to see them as often. Franklin: Right, right, because of the—not as much—farther distance, not as good of roads. Ferqueron: Well, eventually, he moved back to Benton City and had a farm up there. But in those days, going from where we lived in Finley to Benton City was quite a trip. Franklin: I bet. I bet that would have been an all-day affair. Ferqueron: Yeah. My mother told me when they were children to go to Kennewick to shop, it was all day, because they had a horse and a wagon. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: They went to Kennewick and back and it was an all-day trip. Franklin: So when do your parents and grandparents—when did your family come to the Richland area? Ferqueron: Yeah. My great-grandparents came here just about the turn of the century. But as far as I can figure, about 1900. Maybe a little earlier. And my great-grandfather farmed the area somewhere between where WinCo is now and the Yakima River. Franklin: Okay. And then did they—when they came, were there already—was there already irrigation piping here? Was there an irrigation district? Ferqueron: I don’t remember—I mean, I don’t really know. I never was told. My grandparents and my mother and her siblings came—let’s see, she was born in 1905 in Nebraska, and she was three when they came here. Franklin: So in 1908. Ferqueron: 1908, yeah. Franklin: Okay. I know there were irrigation lines— Ferqueron: And there was irrigation then. Franklin: --at that time. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: 1900 is a little— Ferqueron: A little early. Franklin: A little early. Did your— Ferqueron: But— Franklin: Oh, sorry. Ferqueron: They had the Yakima River. So they had a water supply and they-- Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: I know you’ve probably heard about the Rosencrans and the water wheel they had here on the river? Franklin: No, no, tell me about that. Ferqueron: Well, I don’t really know much about it, but there are pictures of it available somewhere. Franklin: Okay. I’ll have to look at— Ferqueron: The Rosencrans family had that. Franklin: Okay. Great. Thank you. Ferqueron: And that was—that was probably the start of the irrigation right there. Around that time. Franklin: Right. From the research I’ve done, it shows that kind of later in 1906, 1908, the White Bluffs Irrigation Company and the Hanford Irrigation Company, which were formed by kind of collected capital on the west side of the state laid down the irrigation piping, bought the land— Ferqueron: Miles and miles of it, yeah. Franklin: Right. And then sold the land to people, and then people would have to pay monthly irrigation bills. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: Whether they used the water or not. It was kind of a scheme to make a bunch of money. Ferqueron: Well, it’s still that way. Franklin: Right, it is. But I’ve always been kind of interested about the pre—because it sounds like there were smaller attempts by families at creating some irrigation tunnels and ditches. Ferqueron: I don’t know if there’s anybody still living that would know. Franklin: Yeah, it’s—the nature of the history is—physically the evidence has been wiped off the map. Ferqueron: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was wiped out with the bulldozers and everything—that was all— Franklin: So your great-grandparents that came, that would have been your father’s side? Ferqueron: My mother’s. Franklin: Your mother, oh, so then your mother was born in Nebraska? Ferqueron: My father, on my Sloppy side of the family, I don’t really know when they came. But my father was born in Prosser—well, AmaRosa district outside of Prosser—in 1905. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: He was the third baby born in Benton County. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Well, you know, years ago—before 1905, there was no Benton County. It was Yakima County. Franklin: Yup. Ferqueron: Then they divided it, and Dad was born after it was made a county. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: I don’t know exactly where they came from. They did live here in Richland for a number of years because my mother and father went to school from first grade to, I believe, fifth. And then his family moved away. And then he came back in his 20s and went to work for John Weidle and Thad Grosscup. There’s streets named after them in West Richland. Franklin: John Weidle and who? Ferqueron: Thad Grosscup. Franklin: Oh, yeah, Grosscup. Ferqueron: Yeah. Yeah, I knew both of those men. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: He was working in wheat fields all over here and Idaho and everything. And anyway, my parents married here in 1930. Franklin: In Richland? Ferqueron: Oh, actually, married in Kennewick because the old Methodist church in Kennewick on Kennewick Avenue. Franklin: Oh, right. And then how did your parents meet? Ferqueron: In school. Franklin: Oh, in school. Well, right, first through fifth. But how did they reconnect later—I mean, were they both in Richland at the same time, or— Ferqueron: Yeah, he came back to work for Thad-- Franklin: Well, right. Ferqueron: --in what is now West Richland. And mom worked for John Dam. You know, John Dam Plaza? Franklin: Yup. Ferqueron: Named after him. Well, she worked for John for—right out of high school. She graduated in the old high school here in 1922, and went to work for John Dam. Franklin: And what did she do? Ferqueron: And Dad was in and out of the—she was a clerk. Franklin: Oh, in— Ferqueron: In his store, mm-hm. Franklin: Oh, at his store. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, John Dam had a—well, it was like a department store. He sold everything. He was also our unofficial banker. Franklin: As many storekeepers often were in those days. Ferqueron: Well, he gave credits through the winter to the farmers and then they would pay it off in the fall with the crops. Franklin: Right, yeah, no, that’s a— Ferqueron: An old— Franklin: A long-standing tradition in agriculture. Ferqueron: Yeah. A lost tradition now. Franklin: Yes. Although, sadly, sometimes, abused and—like the sharecropping system of the South. But usually not quite so much here, luckily. So graduated from Richland. Okay, wow. So you said you grew up—you lived in three different farms here. Ferqueron: Yeah. And went to school here in Richland at what is now Lewis and Clark. Franklin: Went to school at Lewis and Clark. Okay. And how come your parents moved so much in the 12 years between the three different farms? Do you know why they--? Ferqueron: You know, I really don’t remember. Some of the farms—two of the farms were rented. So that might have been why. He found a better place. There was a time when we moved away from Richland. We lived in Corfu, which does not exist now. Franklin: In where, sorry? Ferqueron: Corfu. It’s right across the mountain from White Bluffs. Franklin: Could you— Ferqueron: Right out of Othello. Franklin: Could you spell that for me? Ferqueron: Corfu, C-O-R-F-U. Franklin: Oh, okay. I would not have spelled it that way. Thank you. Ferqueron: And as far as we know, my sister was the only person ever born there. My mother was a postmaster there. All the outlying farmers would come in and get their mail there. Franklin: Mm. Do you know if there was a store there, or was it just a— Ferqueron: Yes, there was a store, but it was gone. It was abandoned. Actually, Corfu was founded, I think, for the railroad workers. Franklin: Oh. Ferqueron: To have a place to stay. And we lived in—it was a hotel, and we lived on the second floor, and, well, part of the time on the first floor. And my mother was postmaster. Franklin: Interesting. Was it a functioning hotel at that point? Ferqueron: No. No, we were the only residents in there. Franklin: Only residents there. Oh, wow. Ferqueron: We had lots of room. Franklin: So it was really just the postal designation to deliver mail at that point. And was that— Ferqueron: We had a lot of sheep herders go through. Franklin: Oh, I would imagine. Interesting. Ferqueron: I don’t know if you know about the sheep herds that went through. They were—oh, about four of five thousand sheep per herd, you know. Franklin: Right, and it was often— Ferqueron: They would go up, and go across Grand Coulee Dam before it was closed to them. Franklin: And it was often—I don’t know if it was this far north, but often sheep herders were Basque men? People from the Basque region? Do you know of— Ferqueron: I just remembered, when my father was in his early teens, he was a sheep herder for a summer or two. Franklin: Oh, really? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—in the same area? Ferqueron: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: Is Corfu—was that where part of the Hanford reservation extends over? Ferqueron: You know, I don’t know if it goes that far or not. I doubt it, but I don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: I know people are surprised when I tell them that there’s ice caves up there. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: Yeah, the White Bluffs range there. Yeah. We used to go into those ice caves, and the people in Corfu and another little town up there used to keep their meat and stuff in there. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Refrigeration, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that was a very prized thing before electric refrigeration. Ferqueron: Well, it’s been there since the Ice Age. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: What was the other little town? Ferqueron: You know, I just don’t remember now. Franklin: That’s okay. So your parents—your mother worked for John Dam for a time, your father was kind of a wheat farmer— Ferqueron: Yeah, and— Franklin: Then they settled down and lived in these three different farms. Now, the last one you lived in in Richland, that was one that your parents had bought? Ferqueron: They were buying it. Franklin: Yeah--or they were buying it, they had a mortgage on it. Ferqueron: Yeah, they did pay quite a bit on it when we lost it. But we lost—they just lost all of that. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: So. Franklin: And it was a cattle ranch? Ferqueron: It was a dairy farm, yeah. Franklin: Dairy farm, sorry. Ferqueron: Yeah. As far as I remember, we had about 27 cows. We had a huge pasture. Dad rented out pasture land to horses, too. Franklin: Mm. Was that irrigated pasture, or--? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Oh, just for— Ferqueron: It had a pond, but— Franklin: Oh, it had a pond, okay. Ferqueron: I only remember that, because I was sliding around on it one time on the ice and went through the ice and cut my ankle open. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: That’s why I remember it. Franklin: So tell me about growing up in kind of this small agricultural town— Ferqueron: Well, it’s— Franklin: And your childhood and school and friends. Ferqueron: Well, everybody knew you, and I was related to half the town, because I had--two uncles had places here, and at least one aunt and her husband. Well, I always say, it was so small in town that if I did anything wrong, my father knew about it in about 30 seconds, because—[LAUGHTER]—the whole town would call him and tell him, you know? But it was just a really easy-going good time. Franklin: How did the Depression affect your family? Did it affect the town? Ferqueron: Well, about like anybody else, except we had meat, because we had cows, we had pigs, we had chickens. Mom would buy a bunch of little chicks every year. We grew—my mother canned everything. We had lots of food. Clothes and everything, that was a little bit of a problem because of the money. But we did pretty good because—and I don’t remember ever being hungry. Well, I had the kind of parents that if there was food, we got it first anyway. Franklin: Right. So you might not have known at the time— Ferqueron: I don’t remember it being an unhappy time at all. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: But now I realize how much I learned from my mother of how to get by cheaply. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah! Did you ever go to Hanford or White Bluffs at all? Did you know anybody at Hanford? Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. We went through there. I did know them, but now—except for one teacher and I can’t remember his name—and he also taught at Kennewick later. I had him for a teacher there. That was 65 years ago that I graduated. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Of course, of course. A lot of focus is on—especially recently with the creation of the National Park and some of these stories of White Bluffs and Hanford are becoming more well-known, but Richland is also a community that was— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: --displaced by the— Ferqueron: We were very affected by it. I mean, a very emotional thing. There was one man that when they told him he had to get out, he died later that day of a heart attack. Now, whether or not he had a heart attack coming on, who knows? But he did die of a heart attack. Well, that hit us all pretty hard. And then having to say goodbye to my grandparents, and my cousins, and aunts and uncles— Franklin: Have you ever been to any of the—I know they had the Hanford-White Bluffs reunions—were Richland people ever included in those? Ferqueron: I don’t know about—we never were included as far as I know with Hanford and White Bluffs, but we had our own. It was called the Old Timers’ Picnic. Franklin: Old Timers’ Picnic, okay. Ferqueron: And you could not come to that unless you were here prior to 1943. I remember one occasion there, I was living in the south at the time, in South Carolina—came out for vacation. I was 36 years old, and I’m sitting at this table, and Mrs. John Dam, who had not seen me since I was a child, came up to me and said, you must be Edith Long’s little girl. And she patted me on the head like I was a little child. I’ll never forget it. I could not believe she remembered me all that time. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: That was shortly before she died. Franklin: Wow, that’s something. Ferqueron: She was in her 90s then. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, memories are funny that way, huh? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I mean, some things we remember crystal clear, and others kind of seem to get fuzzy. Ferqueron: Just the other day, someone asked me, well, who was John Dam? And its kind of surprised me, because I just assumed everybody knew who he was. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And he was county commissioner, too. Franklin: Yeah. How much of—do you live in Richland now? Ferqueron: I live at the Richland Wye, yes. Franklin: Okay. How did you feel coming back to the Richland Wye and seeing this different town that had been— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: --created, and this kind of suburban landscape that had been placed over what had once been farmland. How did that make you feel when you came back? Ferqueron: Well, it made me—it was not a good thing. Bad memories. Losing—my dad’s losing his farm that he’d worked so many years and everything for—it basically shortened his life some. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Ferqueron: Oh! Franklin: Oh, it’s okay. Ferqueron: Well, it means I got to take a pill. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: So I need my bag over there. Franklin: Oh, sure. Emma, can you grab that? And then we have water right here for you. Ferqueron: Yeah. I forgot about it. I would have turned it off. Emma Rice: This bag? Franklin: Believe me, it’s all right. Ferqueron: Well, if I don’t, I might forget it. Franklin: Right, no, believe me, it’s— Ferqueron: You know, when you’re 85, you’ve got to be careful. Rice: No, you—[LAUGHTER] You’re good. Ferqueron: I’ve got water here. I’ll be fine. Rice: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: But it was also a little complicated, because living at the Richland Wye, we had one time and Richland had another time. It was an hour’s difference between us. Franklin: Huh? Really? Ferqueron: Yes. Yes, Richland city proper—property was on—an hour ahead of us. Franklin: Huh! Oh, is that—that must be before they— Ferqueron: That’s before the government gave out— Franklin: --firmed up the time zones, right? Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Interesting. That’s very—that I had not heard at all. Ferqueron: We wanted to go to Richland to a movie, we had to go at a different time. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Is there any—I’ve heard there’s still a few buildings in Richland left from the pre-’43 days. Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a few houses. The Carlson house as far as I know is still here. And John Dam’s store, I think, is still here. Down there, off of Lee, where they have that roundabout with the metal tree? Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: His store stood in right there somewhere. I’m pretty sure that building is still there. Franklin: Oh, really? Ferqueron: But I’m not positive to that at all. Franklin: Of course. Ferqueron: It would be on the corner of Lee and Jadwin. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: But everything has changed so much. And then there’s—across the street, on Lee going into the park, on the left-hand side, I’m pretty sure that’s an original building. Well, maybe not original to Richland, but it was in Richland before Hanford. It was, I think, a bar. And something else, because I remember going in there and asking Dad for a dime so that the six of us—at the time there was just six of us—could buy some candy. And for a dime, we got a whole bagful. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: And I remember the butcher—George Gress was his name. Had a butcher shop. He was German, and he made these wonderful sausages that were ready to eat. Us kids would go down and stand in front of his store and look in the window at it. Ha! He had such a good heart. And we’d send our youngest brother in because he was so cute—in to see George. And he—Dean, my brother—would come out with sausage hung around his neck. [LAUGHTER] And we’d all have some sausage. I don’t know if my parents ever found out about that or not. If they had, they’d have put a stop to it. Franklin: Right, right. What was—I gather that a lot of the street names were changed when the government came in. Ferqueron: Oh, yes. Franklin: And what was—you mentioned the John Dam store was on Lee and Jadwin, so I imagine there were streets there. Ferqueron: It is now. I don’t know that there was a—if there was, I don’t remember it. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: Yeah. I would go down there to cash—I was old enough to go and cash the dairy checks that Dad got for his milk and stuff. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: And instead of him coming in to do it, or my mother—when I was at school I’d go and cash them there. But I don’t remember there being any streets. Franklin: Okay. Do you—I know Howard Amon Park was there before the— Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So do you have any memories of Howard Amon Park? Ferqueron: Oh [LAUGHTER] yes. Well, first of all it wasn’t quite as large now. But Howard, as far as I know, gave that—he died before I was born, but I knew all the other Amons. Franklin: Sure. Ferqueron: But I think he gave them the lease on that land for eternity as a park. And that concrete gate they have down there, I remember that as being larger, but of course I was a child, you know, so maybe it wasn’t larger. But no, the one story I remember about that was our class had an Easter egg hunt down there one year. I was one of the tallest in the class, so I could find all the Easter eggs. They were real eggs. [LAUGHTER] I had a small washpan full. [LAUGHTER] And the teacher asked me if I’d share them with the children. And I said, oh, yeah, glad to! Because we had a farm and we had 500 chickens laying eggs, you know? And I did not want to take home a bunch of boiled eggs to my mother. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, you were probably eating enough eggs. Ferqueron: But what I really remember is the winter of the egg hunt, got a chocolate bunny about this high. And I got that bunny. So I didn’t care about the eggs, I won that chocolate bunny. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right! Can you talk a little bit about going to school in Richland and kind of just— Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: You know, the teachers and the kinds of subjects you learned and the classes taught and just kind of how that experience was for you? Ferqueron: Well, it was just really average, except there wasn’t anywhere near as many of us, of course. One of my teachers was Miss Carlson, who was a friend of my mother’s. Now, when I came into the Kennewick School District, I had gone to school the first year in Corfu. We had a two-room schoolhouse, and I was the entire elementary school. I was the only student in the elementary school. Franklin: Who— Ferqueron: And there was three high school students. And our teacher was a high school teacher, and he didn’t know what to do with me. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: So he read me stories all day long. Whenever he got a chance, he’d read me stories and teach me a little bit. So when I came to Richland, I was very far behind. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And Miss Carlson got one of the other students to spend a couple hours with me in the library to catch me up. So I caught up to the third grade, and then from then on, it was pretty easy. Pretty good. Franklin: Who was the—so you went to a four-person school in Corfu— Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, actually, the second year in Corfu, it was five, because my brother joined me in the elementary school. We doubled our elementary school. Franklin: Doubled the elementary school. Were your family religious at all? Did they attend church in Richland or Corfu? Ferqueron: No, no, we didn’t. But my mother was a religious person, and we got some there. Now, I don’t remember going to church there. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: Of course, later on, I did. We all—and my parents decided that the seven of us could choose our own religions. So they didn’t push us in any particular direction. But my father ended up a Catholic. Franklin: Okay. Ferqueron: And my mother was baptized in the Baptist church. And I go to a Baptist church. Franklin: That’s very—I don’t know—very progressive kind of stance on education—or on Christianity—on religion for that time period. Because so many preexisting— Ferqueron: Well, they were always very strong. I never heard my parents say “if” you get out of high school; it was always “when” you get out—“when” you graduate. I had one brother who didn’t, but he had some vision problems, and he went into the Air Force and finished in the Air Force. So we’re all graduates. And I have a couple—a brother that’s a graduate of—I guess Washington. I’m not sure. He did it—he was in the Army, so he had some education in Berlin, El Paso, Texas, wherever he could get it. Franklin: Right, sure. Ferqueron: But education was always pushed in our family. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I mean, it’s so fundamental for success later in life. Ferqueron: Right. Well, it’s really the reason we left Corfu and went back to Richland, is because, obviously, my brother and I were not learning anything in Corfu. We were just not. And the teacher was not a good teacher. So they pulled us out and we came down here to—because of us getting education. Franklin: Right. Are you—where are you—you said you had seven brothers and—or you’re of seven--? Ferqueron: I’m the oldest of seven. Franklin: You’re the oldest of seven, okay. Ferqueron: I have five brothers and one sister. Franklin: So I can imagine, then, that they—staying in Corfu, they would be looking at kind of a legacy of not so good edu—you know. Ferqueron: Right. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that makes a lot of—and how close are you all in age? Are you fairly close in age? Ferqueron: Well, let’s see. Yeah, we are, except for two of them. There’s me, and 18-19 months later is my brother, Verne, whom you’ve already interviewed. Then there’s Roy, who’s another year, year-and-a-half. And Lorne is a year, and then my sister comes a year after Lorne. And then there’s Dean and then five years after Dean—surprise, there’s Dale. [LAUGHTER] So that’s how we run. All pretty close. Franklin: Right. Most families have at least one surprise. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: What did your mother do in this time, you know—did she work on the farm with your father? Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. She did until she became allergic to the sun. Franklin: Oh! There’s a lot of sun here. Ferqueron: But most of her time was spent either with us children, or she was canning. She had a garden. Of course our garden was quite large. And then the farm was alfalfa and dairy. But we had a big garden. Franklin: Did she or your father ever take any cash work before the government came? You know, any kind of off-the-farm jobs or anything? Ferqueron: No. Well, yeah, wait. When the war came, we were still on the farm, and Dad went to work at Big Pasco. You heard of Big Pasco? Franklin: Yeah, the holding—the supply depot. Ferqueron: Right, supplies for the Army. He worked there for a short while—maybe a year. I don’t remember how long. I do remember why he quit. He had a major that was a 90-day wonder, they used to call them. He’d been an officer for 90 days. And anyway, he and Dad got into it over something, and Dad says, well, I quit. And he said, well, you can’t quit, because you’re working for the Army. You’re frozen in the job. And Dad said, well, that’s just tough, and walked off. Two days later, this officer and a sergeant showed up at our house and was going to take Dad off to the Army. Well, he was 35. Dad just lined us kids up in the yard and said, these are my six kids, and there’s a seventh one on the way. I am a farmer, so therefore I’m deferred. And I remember the major getting terribly angry, and the sergeant actually drug him back to the Jeep. He was so angry! And as they were driving away,Dad said, oh and by the way, I have an ulcer. Which the Army wouldn’t touch him with an ulcer. I remember that so clearly because it was absolutely hilarious. Well, that was my father, the way he did things. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to say about Richland before the war that I haven’t asked you about? Ferqueron: Well, I remember the day that Pearl Harbor happened. Franklin: Oh, okay, yeah. Ferqueron: I was listening to the radio in the house, and my mother was outside talking to somebody, some lady. And I heard the announcement that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and so I went outside and I asked my mother, where’s Pearl Harbor? And she said, in Hawai’i. And I told her what happened, and I’ll never forget her remark. She said, thank God my boys are little. And that’s about all I remember about that. Franklin: That’s— Ferqueron: That particular day. Franklin: Yeah, that’s very searing. Ferqueron: But I had uncles who ended up in the war and all that kind of stuff. No, I don’t remember an awful lot about it. Franklin: Sure, sure. Ferqueron: Well, I do remember, they had a rubber drive. And we had a rubber—we had a tire swing in our yard that Dad had put up for us. And us kids, we scoured that farm for rubber and metal for the defense, you know? We were getting ready to cut the tire down, and Dad made us stop. He said, no, you’ve given enough. He said, you’re not giving up your swing. Franklin: Aw. Ferqueron: I do remember that. Franklin: That’s really sweet. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Did things economically start to improve for your family during the war? Ferqueron: They did, when the war come, yeah, yeah. Franklin: Until, of course, the evacuation. Ferqueron: Right. Franklin: I kind of already asked you about how coming back made you feel. When you look at Hanford and its kind of legacy, you must have an interesting—you have a different perspective from most people that came here during the war. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about— Ferqueron: Sometimes I’m resentful because of what happened with my parents and what they lost—what we all lost, everybody who ever lived here. But then again, you just kind of live with it. But I do get upset when people don’t want to talk about anything but Hanford. I want them to remember there was something here 200 years before. Because we had Indians here. We had woolly mammoths walking up and down the Columbia River, for heaven’s sake. And what about the Indian history? I don’t hear much about Indian history. Franklin: No, that’s a good question. Ferqueron: There was Indians living up there! Franklin: Right. Did you ever have—did you ever meet any Wanapum or Yakama people? Ferqueron: I never met a Wanapum until years later—in fact, about five or six years ago. But I did know some Yakamas, but not while I was living in Richland. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, that’s—several groups of people have been alienated from the land here. Ferqueron: Right, yeah. Oh, the Indians—they were done really rotten. Franklin: Yeah, yes they were. Ferqueron: Long before we were. I never could figure out— Franklin: I teach— Ferqueron: Why do we call Indians savages when our people were really the savages? Stealing their land and everything. Franklin: Yes, and indiscriminately killing them. Ferqueron: Yes, that’s how I—well, our admiration of President Roosevelt went into the dumper when Hanford happened. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: Yeah, there were a lot of people mad at him, because—I never did see it—but I’ve been told many times that there was a letter written by Roosevelt, saying that we could have the land back at the price they paid for it when they were through with it. Well, when the time came, and the government left here, he said, no, he’d never written it. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: And nobody could ever prove it. But I just heard about it; I never did see it. Franklin: When you—can you describe about when you and your family found out about the atomic bombs dropped, that one of them was—part of that was produced at Hanford, and Hanford’s connection to that. How did that— Ferqueron: Well, it was kind of a shock to even realize it was something as powerful as that. But the day that we found out was when Dad came home with a newspaper, and it was in there. And he said, well, now we finally know what they were doing out there and why they were doing it. Franklin: Did that change anyone’s feelings about what had happened, or— Ferqueron: I don’t— Franklin: Or not? Ferqueron: Some people it did. I went to a funeral a few years ago for one of the Richland—for Eddie Supplee’s wedding. It was quite a family of Supplees here. They were still bitter. He was very bitter before he died. I talked to him not long before he died and he was very bitter about Hanford, and it had been so many years. So it was a lot of people with a lot of resentment. Franklin: Did you ever connect—do you know if there’s much connection between the displaced peoples of Hanford who later resettled and then the so-called down-winders, people that were affected later by releases from Hanford? Do you know if there was ever any talk between those two groups? Ferqueron: No, not that I know of. Not that I’m aware of. I know one thing—when the construction workers came in—of course, they spilled out all over, because there was over 30,000 of them— Franklin: Yeah huge influx. Ferqueron: And they were settling all over in Kennewick and everywhere. Some of them were not a good class of people. You know, they were—I met a few of them, and they were pretty bad. But when everybody left Richland, they left the cream of the crop. We got some really great people in. We got a lot of good scientists. We are really quite an area for science and everything. Franklin: Yeah. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: How does that make you—you sound a little—both happy that they’re there, but obviously then there’s this other side of it where— Ferqueron: Well, I— Franklin: --had this not happened, that would still be—that your family would still have a place here. Ferqueron: I’m just the sort of a person—I adjust just very easily. I’ll say, well, this is life; this is the way it’s going. Why—there’s nothing I can do about it so, just enjoy what you have. Franklin: So you came back to the Wye when you—how old were you when your parents— Ferqueron: I was 15 when we first came to the Wye, and I’m still living in the same house. Franklin: Oh, in the house that had been— Ferqueron: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: Well, it was down on Columbia Park Trail. At the time it was Columbia Drive, but it set right almost on the road. In the Flood of ’48 or whatever that year was—it was about that far from our front door. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: But my dad moved it up on a little hill. And, yeah, I’m still living in that house. Franklin: You are still living in that house. Ferqueron: Uh-huh, yeah. I still own it. Franklin: So the house from— Ferqueron: The house that we moved from Finley to Richland Wye in was a two—three-room house. There wasn’t enough bedrooms—it was all that we could get at the time. But behind it was a Quonset hut left over from the war. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: So Dad moved—and Mom moved—my brothers and me out there, because I was 15, and I could be out there at night to—whatever the kids—boys needed, and to keep them from killing one another. You know how that is with—[LAUGHTER]—boys. Franklin: Oh, I know. Ferqueron: So we slept in the Quonset hut until Dad moved the house up on the hill where it is now, and added to it. And they raised seven kids, and the two of them, and an uncle who stayed with us for a while, in a two-bedroom house, very small house. Bunk beds all over the place, but we made out. And then years later, my brother put a basement in there. He lives in the basement now and I live upstairs. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s— Ferqueron: We both own the house. Franklin: Neat. Ferqueron: It’s only about 75 years old. [LAUGHTER] It’s falling down around us, but we’re both in our 80s, so— Franklin: Was that house brought here during World War II, or does that predate it? Ferqueron: It was sitting there—I don’t know what the history on it. I know my parents bought it for $1,000—that and the land under it. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: That’s under it now. Yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s really—and so what were your—so you moved back at 15, and then what—you graduated from the— Ferqueron: Kennewick High. Franklin: Kennewick High. Ferqueron: ’49. Franklin: ’49. And then what did you do? Ferqueron: It was just a few months later I went in the Navy. Franklin: Mm. Ferqueron: So I was in the Navy, and went to Bay Bridge, right out of Baltimore—not Baltimore—yeah, Baltimore for boot camp. And then I went to San Diego for school, and— Franklin: And what did you do in— Ferqueron: I was a commissaryman. What I did was—to put it as simple as I can—is I ran a large, very large restaurant. I was a crew boss. There was actually two of us, because it was—our shifts were 18-hour shifts. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: So, I’d work five days one week and two days the next, and the other girl would take over for the opposite watch. Anyway, it was like running a huge restaurant, except I didn’t have to worry about the menu; that came out of Washington, DC. I did that for two years. Then I got married, and married an engineman from South Carolina. That’s where the Ferqueron name comes from. We traveled around quite a bit for a couple years—well, about four or five years. Had one daughter. And he became an officer—a submarine officer. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Ferqueron: In Hawai’i. Franklin: Oh, wow. Ferqueron: So I’ve lived in Hawai’i, I’ve lived in California—my daughter was born in California—Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Florida, and Washington. [LAUGHTER] I think I’ve got them all, anyway. That was over a 30-year period. Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Richland area? Ferqueron: In 1988—’84. ’84. Franklin: 1984. Ferqueron: ’84. My mother had a very mild heart attack, and I sold my house in South Carolina and came out here to take care of her. And just stayed, because she left me the house—me and my brother—the house. And I went to work for churches here in childcare. I worked for five different churches. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ferqueron: And I retired from doing that, and now I do a lot of volunteer work. Franklin: So when you left Richland, or the area of Richland, it was kind of this closed town. Ferqueron: It was very—yeah. And small, compared to today. Franklin: Right, smaller and also wholly government owned. Ferqueron: Oh, yes. Franklin: And when you came back, Richland was, you know— Ferqueron: Wide open, yeah. Franklin: Wide open. And then shortly after, production at Hanford ceased. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about that a bit, how you felt about that, and kind of watching that legacy of Hanford stop. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, I just—I really don’t know how I really felt about it. I just went about my way, and not too concerned. Although I wondered—all of that money and stuff in there and they’re closing it down. You know? And they might have to open it up again at some time. You never know. Franklin: That’s true. Ferqueron: I didn’t spend too much worrying about the past. Franklin: Did you keep in touch with a lot of people from old Richland when you lived around, and--? Ferqueron: No. They were so scattered that I didn’t—I lost contact with a lot of them, including some relatives. Franklin: What about when you came back to Richland, did you start to rebuild those relationships again? Ferqueron: No, uh-unh. No, most of my relationships, even today, are from Kennewick High. Franklin: Oh, okay, right. Ferqueron: Yeah, because I have lunch with the people that are still living here. I have lunch with them once a month. Franklin: Sure. I mean, that makes sense because they weren’t scattered forcibly. Ferqueron: Right, and the people who went to high school in Richland, we really had nothing to do with, you know. Franklin: Right, because they were— Ferqueron: Right, entirely different— Franklin: Entirely different. And you weren’t welcome in Richland anymore, right? I mean— Ferqueron: Well, they didn’t understand how we felt about it. How could they understand? Franklin: Right, right. To them it had been an opportunity. Ferqueron: Yeah, and they came here, and they thought they built the town up from a sand pile to what it is today. You know? Franklin: Interesting. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about today that you’d like to mention? Ferqueron: No. Franklin: Well— Ferqueron: I do have something I have arguments with people about and that’s why the Richland Wye is called the Richland Wye. They all assume it’s the highway. It’s not. It’s an old Indian trail. Franklin: Really? Ferqueron: And the reasons why is because the Yakama tribes would come down from Yakima and camp at the Richland Wye. The Wanapums and the tribes up that way would come down, cross the river, approximately where we cross it now—the Yakima. They would meet the Yakama tribe there; they would go on to Walla Walla for the pow-wows, and that forms the Richland Wye. Franklin: Oh, interesting. And where did you— Ferqueron: I used to go to the meetings for the Daughters of Washington State. I didn’t quite qualify—my family didn’t come quite—or I couldn’t prove that they came quite soon enough for me to be a complete Daughter of Washington, but— Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: And then our particular section broke up. People started dying off, and—I was quite a bit younger than some of them. This is where I learned more about it. Franklin: Interesting. Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, they do have a marker out there now that says heritage trail, but there’s no explanation as to what it is. Franklin: Oh. Ferqueron: And I think the Indians should have credit for that! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I mean, they certainly had extensive trading and travel networks and that things we— Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. They did that once every year, I think. Franklin: Yeah, I believe so. Ferqueron: So it formed a trail. Franklin: Yeah, there’s a lot there that we first ignored, and then the interest was in some cases too late for-- Ferqueron: Well, everything is focused on Hanford now. And Battelle and the companies that are here now, and the labs out there, and Battelle. I think all that stuff is great, but to me, I still see a farm out there. Franklin: Right, right. I mean, how could you not? I mean, you had—you grew up there. Ferqueron: Right. Well, from ten days old. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Exactly. Ferqueron: I can still picture my grandfather’s farm just as if it was still there. Franklin: Well, Lorraine, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. It’s been really insightful, and—yeah, I think it’s really important to have a voice of those pre-war communities and that transition period, and how there’s this other narrative of Hanford that sometimes gets lost in the telling of the story. Ferqueron: Yeah. I don’t want it to get lost. I want those people to be remembered. Because they gave a big sacrifice. That was a huge sacrifice. Franklin: Yeah, it is. Ferqueron: Even though it was forced, it was still—there is one other story I heard, and one of the farms here was owned by a woman and her cherries were ready to pick, and they told her she couldn’t pick them. She had to get out first. And this is a story I heard from the time I was 12. She had a shotgun loaded with rock salt. You know what rock salt is? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Ferqueron: Of course. Well, she shot the FBI man. Hurt him pretty bad. And I remember everybody in town was, well, she’s going to go to jail. You shoot an FBI man, you’re going to go to jail. Nothing was ever done, she picked her cherries and moved out. Franklin: Wow. Ferqueron: Well, it was too secret; they couldn’t. Franklin: Right, because if they had taken her to court, that arrest record would be— Ferqueron: There would be reporters in no time. It would’ve been all over the country in no time at all. Franklin: To kind of make that go away, right? Wow, that’s really something. That’s a great story. Ferqueron: Yeah. Franklin: Well, Lorraine, again, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today. Ferqueron: Well, I want to do anything I can to make sure people remember there was a Richland before Hanford started. Franklin: Yeah, and we’re going to add this oral history right by your brother’s, and so have that as a great—again, thank you for helping expand that— Ferqueron: The other children in our family are too young, and my brother Roy is so deaf he couldn’t hear you if he tried, and he doesn’t like to think about those times at all. And he was born in Richland. Franklin: Right. Ferqueron: But a midwife who later became our grandmother—she married my—she had a farm here in Richland, and she lost her husband in ’35, and my grandmother lost his wife—my grandmother—in ’36. And they farmed alongside one another for many, many years. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Ferqueron: And then they got married. After we were all grown. So one day at school, there was a whole bunch of kids there that were just other kids; the next day they were my cousins. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s really something. Ferqueron: Yeah, it was interesting. Franklin: Well, again, I can’t thank you enough, Lorraine. Ferqueron: Oh, well, I’ve enjoyed it, really. Franklin: Oh, good! Me too. Me too. Okay, so we’ll-- Ferqueron: I wish I remembered more. I was only 12, 13. Franklin: Well, that gives you enough, though, you know, concrete experiences that you do remember. Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a lot of family names that I remember. And, well, like I said, I’ve gone to a couple funerals from there. But those are pretty much gone now. I think it’ll be my family next. Franklin: Well, hopefully not too soon. Ferqueron: Oh, no. Well, I just had a heart valve put in, and the doctor told me to—and I’m 85—and the doctor told me to come back-- [VIDEO CUTS] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:53:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1931-1949 1984- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Lorraine Ferqueron was born in Pasco, Washington in 1931. Lorraine grew up in Fruitdale and Richland until 1943 when her family was displaced for the Manhattan Project. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Irrigation Farming Grand Coulee Dam (Wash.) Displacement Yakama Indians Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/18">Oral History Metadata</a> Battelle Cat Christianity Dam FBI Flood Hanford Kennewick Park Picnic Quonset hut River School supplies War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff211cc318122fcc50072f9ab2958fa5f.jpg ec2465e5aaa046f025918d37309c0175 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F257cc8ce9666073c659a488f791afcbf.mp4 094e1fc70bcb1fe1b557c01b40629f9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Knutson, Lucille Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Knutson_Lucille Robert Bauman: Yes, she was one of the first ones we had out here. Actually, it probably was in June then. She was one of the first people. Lucille Knutson: She's quite a lady. She's a character. [LAUGHTER] We belong to the Model T Club together. Bauman: Oh, really? Knutson: There's where met her. Bauman: Oh, okay, great. Knutson: They restored Model Ts and so did we. Bauman: That's how you got to know each other. Knutson: Yeah. Bauman: That's great. Knutson: We've been good friends for 20 years. Man one: We're rolling here. Bauman: Ready to go? Man one: I'll adjust this as you go. Bauman: Okay, we're going to go ahead and get started, if that's okay? Knutson: Okay. Bauman: All right, so I'm going to start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. Knutson: Okay, my name is Lucille Knutson. L-U-C-I-L-L-E. Knutson is K-N-U-T-S-O-N. Bauman: Okay, great. All right, and my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 13th of 2013, and we are having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So, Lucille, let's start by just having me--I'm going to ask you to tell me about how you came to the Tri-Cities, what brought you here, when you came, that sort of thing. Knutson: Well, in 1940, Palmer and I were married. We ran away and got married in Baker, Montana. And in December the war broke out, so anyway--or was it a year later? Anyway, there was a call for carpenters to go to an ammunition depot in South Dakota. So my husband and his brother and his father, who were all carpenters, went there, finished that job. There was a call to go on to Mountain Home, Idaho for Air Force base. They went there, and then that job was ending, and friends from there had come out here and sent us a letter because there were no telephones, no cell phones in those days, and told us to come here because there was work here. So we went down to the ration board to get gas and tires to come here, and they said, where did you hear about this place? There's nothing going on there, no jobs that are affiliated with the war. So we got the gas and tires and came here. They give us gas and tires to go home, but we came here instead. So we landed in August of 1943 in Pasco. Knutson: Yeah, we came to Pasco. Our instructions were to go to the employment agency, so we did. Oh, my word—hot and windy, and I thought we'd come to the end of the world, when we got here. So these friends that had come previously had written to us and gave us some instructions. So we head out toward Hanford, and we come to a farmhouse called Barnett's farm. It had a big sign near the mailbox. So we turned in there and found our friends, and we never did go to Hanford to the trailer court. We stayed right there. So we had eggs and milk and everything right from the farmer, and it was perfect. We weren't out in the hot sun. It was really neat. And the fellows went to work, and we stayed here. And my son was two years old, and I was pregnant with the next one--no hospital in Richland, no hospital in Hanford at that time. So she was born in Lady of Lourdes, and Lady of Lourdes was—[LAUGHTER] well, everybody out at Hanford had to go there, the people that were having babies, and they were in the hallways. I mean, every spot was taken for those in the maternity ward. And we stayed here ‘til my husband got called to the service. So we moved to Sunnyside to be near relatives because I didn't want to go clear back to Wisconsin, where my folks were, with two little ones, so we went to Sunnyside. So he was to report at the--the buses were taking them to Spokane, and when he got on the bus, they said because he had a family at home--it was near the end of the war by that time, so he didn't have to go. So we came back to Richland to work on the plant here. Bauman: And so what sort of work did your husband do? Knutson: He was a carpenter, so he worked out building out there and also then started building the homes here in Richland because there was nothing here. When we came from Pasco that first day, there was a cow tethered down by Jackson's Tavern in Richland, and there was John Dam's Grocery Store and a bank and one other building. I can't remember what that was, but there were three buildings in the downtown area and a few houses where the people lived here. And this is Mr. Barnett's farm out there, he had sold it to the government but had gone to work for the government, so he got to stay in his home. So that's how come we rented space from him. Bauman: And so you stayed there until you moved to Sunnyside. When you back from Sunnyside, where did you move to? Knutson: By that time, we got a three-bedroom prefab. So we were in that a short time, and by then, they were trading houses. If you lived in one, you could trade it. It was before houses were sold. So we traded and got the B house that we're in now. So we've been in that house for over 60 years, but we remodeled it into a single unit. Bauman: So you mentioned first arriving in the heat. Any other first impressions of the place? Knutson: Oh! [LAUGHTER] First impression of this area? Bauman: Yeah. Knutson: It was beastly hot. It was around 100 degrees, and we knew that we were headed for our trailer court out there at Hanford, which wasn't very inviting, but we didn't have to go. But there was nothing here. I just thought we'd come to the end of the world. It was just--couldn't hardly wait for this job to get over with, so we could go home again—never, ever expecting to stay. Bauman: And then you said your husband, after the war, was involved in building homes? Knutson: Yes, they were building—I don't know exactly when they started building the houses here in Richland, but he built—the prefabs were moved in kind of as pre-fabricated houses, but then he worked on the other houses also. And then when the war was over and the houses were sold, he went into business, and he put basements under existing houses. So it was quite a lucrative business because everybody, every house in Richland had a half basement. So he was a busy guy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So you said you had one child already, and then you had a second child. What sort of community was Richland like into the late 1940s, early 1950s for you and your family? Knutson: Well, in the '40s, when we first got here, we had to stand in line for everything--the grocery store, post office, everything. And as it was later on, the town began to develop, then there was Central United Protestant Church. I think the city fathers thought there would be one church that would serve everybody, but that didn't happen. The Catholics and the Lutherans and the Baptists, if I remember correctly, wanted their own. So they branched off from this and started their own. So schools were built. Churches were built. It really was a nice place to live. Bauman: So you saw a lot of growth taking place? Knutson: Oh, yes, from the original houses here in town to the houses that were built--the alphabet houses. And then, of course, later on, when everybody owned their homes, then people started building some of their own homes. But there was an awful lot of remodeling, and it begin to look like a regular town instead of a government town. Bauman: But at some point in the 1950s, the city became an independent city, right, from the federal government control. Knutson: Yeah, I remember our first mayor was a lady. I don't remember what her name was. But, yeah, it began to be a normal town--schools, churches, stores. Bauman: Were you able to--did you rent your house initially? Knutson: Yes. Bauman: Did you have to buy it at some point? Knutson: Yes, in the '60s the houses were sold, so you had a chance to buy your house, and we did. In fact, we bought some of the prefabs too, and they wanted them moved. So we bought some of those and moved them, set them up. I think it was in the Highlands of Kennewick. But you know, those prefabs are still standing. Some people have put basements under them. All of them needed foundations because it was temporary, but the alphabet houses were more permanent because they had basements. Bauman: And you mentioned Central United Protestant Church being established. Do you remember when that was, around when that was? Knutson: No, it must've been soon, and I really don't remember. But that was the first one, and then it branched off to south side and north side and the different--some were Baptists. The CUP was Methodist-based, so other denominations began to build their own. But it must've been in the '60s. Bauman: And I imagine there must have been people coming here from all over the United States. Knutson: Oh, of course, and when you had the termination winds, carloads of people would leave. When we first got here, we were really lucky. We had a trailer house. Because some people were living in chicken coops. Because some people were living in cardboard boxes, I mean, until the barracks got built out there. I mean, there was nothing here. So we felt real fortunate to have a house to crawl into. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: As you mention, a lot of people sort of came and then left--stayed for a while and then left, either because of the termination winds or whatever. What made stay? What made you and your family stay? Knutson: Yeah, we stayed. We're still here. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was it just because your husband had employment? Is that one reason why you stayed? Knutson: Well, we liked it, and he was busy. He worked at Hanford, building that, and then he worked on the houses here in Richland. And then when they were sold, why, he went into business for himself, so we just stayed. We like it. Bauman: I wonder if you recall any sort of community events that happened in Richland during that time, in he '40s, '50s? Knutson: Well, we had Frontier Days. That was the big thing--parades and celebrities coming. That was one of the things. But I don't know. You kind of had to make your own fun because there was nothing here. So we took advantage of the river. We had a boat, and we had a boat dock down at the river, and our kids grew up down there. Everybody was in the same boat. We had square dances because we had to make our own fun. And some of the square dances were held in the schools. I remember we square danced at Jefferson. And there were other square—in the '60s, early '70s, that was kind of the thing. There were square dancers all over. That's kind of faded out, but there was a big one in Kennewick that we attended. So it was kind of a do-it-yourself entertainment program. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what was Richland like in terms of a place to raise children? Knutson: Oh, it was great--great place to raise kids. There was schools and churches and Boy Scouts and the river, and our kids were so busy, they didn't have time to get in trouble. And remember, this town was all young people. We all had children. We just did our own thing--our own clubs, our own—and it was great to raise kids. By that time, we had a swimming pool, and it was this time was really conducive to children, because we all had kids. Bauman: You mentioned when you first arrived that there was only a few businesses downtown. Were there places to shop and things like that, or at what point did those things come in? Knutson: Well, there was nothing here when we came. There was John--like I said before, the one little grocery store, and you stood in line around the block to get into the store even. And pretty soon there was—grocery stores started popping up. And the Uptown started to grow. Businesses came in. I think that was probably in the '60s also. I don't really know. But I remember a grocery store in our neighborhood over on Goethals. And then in the downtown area there was a department store. I can't remember the name of it. And a few restaurants started to happen. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Let's see, so you came in '43, so you were here then. Were you here or in Sunnyside when the war ended then? Knutson: We were in Sunnyside when the war ended. And up until that time, we really didn't know what—the secret was really held good. We really didn't know. But the day that the war ended, the farmers came in from Sunnyside, and they threw watermelons. The downtown area on Sunnyside was just a big mess, and the armory came out with hoses to clean everything down. I mean, there was quite a celebration. Why they were smashing fruits and vegetables, I don't know, but they were. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So it wasn't until then that you and your husband found out-- Knutson: That's when we realized what was going on out here, mm-hm. Bauman: So when you first came here, it was something for the war? Knutson: That's it; it was a war effort over here, but we didn't know. We suspected, but the secret was really kept really good. When we first came, when the Mountain Home job was done, friends were here. I don't know how they found out, but they wrote to us. But the Ration Board didn't know there was anything going on. It was a secret then, too. It was very well kept, this secret. Bauman: Do you remember what your response was when you found out, or what you thought? Knutson: Well, no, not really. It was the war effort, and it was--I remember when we first came here how angry some of the farmers and some of the people were that their farms were taken away from them and so forth, and all the promises that were made, I hope they're carried through, but-- Bauman: And I was going to ask you then, when your husband--obviously, 1943 is very early in the construction of the project and so forth, and he was working in construction, right? Knutson: When we first came, he worked out at Hanford building that, and then he came into town to build the houses. When they realized that it wasn't going to be a temporary thing, that all these people that were here and staying needed a place to live, so they built the houses. And then, of course, when they were sold, then he stayed here and put basements under most and did a lot of remodeling, too. Bauman: When he was working out at the site, the Hanford site, how did he get to the site? Were there buses? Knutson: Buses, there were buses, mm-hmm. Bauman: And did he--it was obviously a very secret sort of secure place. Did he have to have a clearance to go work out there? Knutson: Oh, yes, he had to have a clearance, and he had a Q clearance because he was in all the areas. And later on in the late '60s, I went to work for the government. I worked at the Federal Building. I had a Q clearance also. And it was interesting; in 1969 another couple and Palmer and I were going to Europe because our neighbors that lived—he was Atomic Energy Commission--was in the embassy in Austria, and they invited us to come. So two couples of us went over there, and the Q clearance came into play because before I left, security called me and interviewed me to tell me what to do in case I got stopped over there, captured, or whatever. I didn't know anything, of course, [LAUGHTER] that was going on out--but that's how careful they were. Just let us know what to do just in case something like that did happen. Bauman: Right, and so your job at Federal Building was with Department of Energy or--? Knutson: No, my job at the Federal Building--there was a little post office then set up, taking care of the Hanford mail, and I was in charge of the certified and registered mail. So all of the Hanford mail came through our place before it went into the post office, I imagine, to check--another check. Bauman: Sure, so you have been in Richland, for the most part, since 1943 other than a little bit time in Sunnyside. You've seen a lot of changes. Knutson: Oh, yes. Bauman: What do you think has changed the most, or what have been the most significant changes you've seen? Knutson: What do I think-- Bauman: What do you think have been the most significant changes that you've seen since you've been here? Knutson: Well, probably the development of the town. It turned into--we have everything we need here. We've stores, and we've taken the city, and everybody's taken advantage of the river. It's just a nice little town that's developed from all of this. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about, any stories you have from those early years or memories that you'd like to share that you haven't shared? Knutson: Stories, well—[LAUGHTER] An interesting story was when it came time for this baby to be born--no hospital in Hanford, no hospital in Richland. So we went over to Hanford at Lady of Lourdes, and she was a preemie baby, so there was no way they could keep that baby in the hospital. There were babies in the hallways and everything. So the nuns gave us instructions of what to do with this tiny, little three-pound baby. So we came home, and my husband built a shelter in our bedroom made of cheesecloth with a window. And so people couldn't get to her, like relatives and friends that came to see her. And our instructions were to take care of this child with as least bit of handling as possible, because it took too much energy from her. So she grew into a—we did it. We followed all the instructions that they gave us and took care of this baby at home. But it was pioneer days, it seemed like, in those days. It was just you did the best you could with everything. And then it came time for Paul, our son, to go to school. The neighbors next door, their children were going on a bus to a Lutheran school in Kennewick. So they took him along on the bus every morning. So his first year of school was over there. Then we moved into the B house, where we are now, and he went to Jefferson then. Because the schools in those days were just barely being built, and so this was an easy way for us for him to get a good start. Bauman: Pretty much brand new schools. Knutson: Mm-hmm, so it's been great. Bauman: Okay. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and talking to me and sharing your stories. Knutson: Well, [LAUGHTER] okay, I hope I gave some information that you could use. I don't know. I hope this fellow over here can edit this real good, so I don't look like an idiot. [LAUGHTER] Man one: Boy! I'll give you my word. Knutson: Okay, good, make me look good. Man one: You got it. Bauman: Well, thanks very much, Lucille. I appreciate it. Knutson: Oh, you're welcome. Was it okay? Bauman: Oh, yeah, it was great, thank you. Knutson: Okay. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lucille Knutson Description An account of the resource An interview with Lucille Knutson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Lucille Knutson passed away on August 12, 2017. <a href="http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tricityherald/obituary.aspx?pid=186392919">Obituary</a>. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5dc24cbba37606f8930125f75e2a661b.docx ba500a6a67033b85d1ab287ef6f0fcc0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fafb5c748cb7e0cc5efbef11397943674.docx b64caa418a8c0e1153c78a2be95d8e0a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latino/a Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An ongoing oral history project focusing on the history of the Latine/Latino community of the Tri-Cities, Washington area. Previously known as the WSU Tri-Cities Latinx Oral History Project headed by History faculty Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin. Hanford History Project made the decision in 2024 to use Latino/a instead of Latinx as the former more reflects the grammar and practical use and identification of Spanish speakers. We know that one term will not encompass all those identities. For example, Latine, a gender neutral pronoun and product of the queer Spanish community, was considered for use but we use Latino/a to reflect the prevalence of gendered pronouns in the Spanish language. However, we would like to acknowledge that the discourse around which term to use is complex and evolving. Every person has the right to use the term that captures who they are and that feels the most welcoming to them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Language A language of the resource English; Spanish Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman, Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Aragon, Sharlett Mena Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 00:53:48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lucy Aragon and Sharlett Mena Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Latin American; Hanford Site; Richland, WA, USA Description An account of the resource Lucy Aragon discusses migration to the United States, work, and raising her daughter Sharlett. Sharlett discusses growing up in Pasco and her work as a Washington State Representative and as a first person to attend college in her family. Watch the interview on YouTube <a href="https://youtu.be/J7NEViIbh-w">here</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 25, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English, Spanish Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F84bf54bc2ac6706e0f00adbe21db27da.JPG ed544594c67c3e8aa6499b200de2a1a6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fccf2d62dd3fe95e6c0f1cc18ad35a634.mp4 4c158ffd560c969ebaefe18a3df9df28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ludwig Bruggemann Location The location of the interview Yakima, Washington Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Bruggemann_Ludwig Camera man: There we go. That's pretty good? Robert Bauman: Pretty good. Cameraman: Okay. Seems like we ought to record that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yep. Camera man: Yep. We’re rolling. Bauman: Okay. All right, guess we're ready to get started. Ludwig Bruggemann: Good. Bauman: So, if we could start first by just having you say your name and spell it for us. Bruggemann: My name is Ludwig Bruggemann. Ludwig, L-U-D-W-I-G, Bruggemann, B-R-U-G-G-E-M-A-N-N. Bauman: All right, thank you very much. And my name's Bob Bauman. Today's date is September 8, 2014. And we're conducting this interview in Yakima, Washington. So, Mr. Bruggemann, I wonder if we could start by having you tell us a little bit about your family, your parents, and if you know why they moved to the area and when they did that? Bruggemann: Okay. In my father's generation there were three brothers. And my father wanted to become a farmer. And my family had connections to people in Seattle that had access to farms, real estate evidently, real estate people. And my father migrated to America in about 1925, '26. And worked his way up the West Coast, from California on up. And in the between time, his family, or these real estate people had found a farm in the state of Washington that was installed. It was built, everything was there. The person owning it wanted to sell, and my father was able to purchase this 400-acre farm on the Columbia River. Being very important, having water, this is almost a desert area, and he had a big pump station on the Columbia River, water pump station. Bauman: So that was in place already, when he bought it? Bruggemann: That was in place, and he took it over and got it going, got it working right. Bauman: Any idea how much your father paid for it? Bruggemann: No, no idea at all, no. Bauman: And so what sort of crops were grown on the farm? Bruggemann: My father had--what, Paula? Paula Bruggemann Holm: I don't know if it was soft fruit. Bruggemann: No, it was soft fruit as I remember. Holm: Apricots, peaches? Bruggemann: Cherries, wasn't it? Wasn't it cherries? Peaches? Apricots? Pears, maybe. Holm: Apples? Bruggemann: No apples, no. And he later wanted to go into grapes. Bauman: Oh, okay so that was the plan for down the road. Bruggemann: Yeah. Bauman: And your mother--was your father married at the time that he purchased the property? Bruggemann: My father was married I think at the time he purchased the property. But he got a divorce and then he met my mother whose relatives were running the ferry. Bauman: Okay. Bruggemann: At Priest Rapids. And that's how my mother met him, and found him evidently a very attractive man. Bauman: And what was your mother’s name? Bruggemann: Mary. Bauman: And so what memories do you have, I know you were very young when your family left, what memories do you have of the place at all? Bruggemann: Almost none. It was a big, big place, we had animals and about my fifth birthday I got kicked over by a goat. I was trying to pet one of her children and she didn't like that. [LAUGHTER] And I did experience-I sort of have it in my memory--the two jeeps driving in. With the orders, the government orders, you have two months to pack your things and get out of here. Which is a real blow for a farmer. Bauman: Right. Bruggemann: Because, you see, my father had his first crop on the trees. Because later in the dealings, the court dealings he had, they ask him, show us your profits. And he said look, I built up that farm and I had my first crop on the trees and your two jeeps drove in. Military jeeps. Bauman: Right. So your father then took the government to court at some point? Is that what you're saying? Bruggemann: Pardon? Bauman: Your father, did he go to court then? Bruggemann: Well later, I don't know when, where, we moved then to Yakima afterwards. My father thought that he had put his youth energy into that farm and he still wanted to remain a farmer, but he wanted something smaller, and which he could get here on the outskirts of Yakima. And he went to court, I think that was a normal procedure. You had to go to court I think, to find out what the proceeds would be--what the government would they pay for the property--and you're saying it's worth a lot of money and you have to prove that it's worth a lot of money. Bauman: Right. Bruggemann: The land, the crops and so on. And well, the government asks show us your profits. And he didn't have any profits to show, so he got much less than he had hoped he would. Mm-hm. Bauman: Did your father and mother, do remember them talking about this much at the time or later even, when you were older? Talking about having to move in 1943? Bruggemann: No, not really. You see, my father was a real dedicated farmer and he took over 12 acres in here, in Yakima, but with cherries, Bing cherries, that were sold in New York. Really good fruit, peaches and apricots and that subject was sort of shoved to the back. I don't really remember any discussions; I do know that they were disappointed on the outcome, the financial outcome. Bauman: I wonder if you have any other memories of other people--on farms, neighboring farms or other people that you knew in the area or? Bruggemann: Well, Gary and Margaret Wills, yeah, they had the contact and they were out there also weren't they? Holm: Yeah, that's where they met them. Bruggemann: Yeah, okay. Mr. and Mrs. Wills, they were also farmers and also came then the Yakima. See there were two big cities that you would go to, either Sunnyside or Yakima. Mm-hm, at that time. Bauman: Right. So even when you were living on your farm if you needed to go to the city to buy things or whatever, you would go to? Bruggemann: Yeah. Either we'd go to Sunnyside or to Yakima. And the Yakima tour was about an hour’s drive at the time. Bauman: So you were about five years old? Is that right? Bruggemann: I was just, my birthday's in the summer and those jeeps drove in the summer, so I was almost at my fifth birthday, right? When that happened. Bauman: So you had not yet started school? Bruggemann: No, no, no, no, no. I had no kindergarten--they didn't have kindergarten then. I started in Castleville, I think Castleville School, didn't I? I started there, yeah in the first grade and which I just loved--a very good school, Castleville. Bauman: Now we were talking earlier that you and your sister had the chance to go back on site a couple years ago, Gary Peterson, right? Bruggemann: Yeah, right. Bauman: Had you been back before then at all? Bruggemann: No, we would--you know where the Vantage Bridge is, Okay. I would take trips--on my trips here to the States I would take trips with my parents to the Vantage Bridge. And there's a little stop there, a little rest area there. And we would look over the fence to the old house, we thought it was the old house until--well the house was there for a while anyway, until they tore it down--but that's all, that’s the only-- Bauman: So that time with Gary was the first time you had actually been out-- Bruggemann: In the area, yes. Yes. Yes. Bauman: What, I'm kind of curious, did it bring back any memories for you? Or what sorts of things. Bruggemann: Not really. Not really. I don't remember the house at all, for example. I don't remember. I know my memory set in when I came to Yakima. Bauman: Mm-hm. Bruggemann: But it was, well wait, wait, wait, one thing, one thing. My mother was always very much loaded with work and cooking and even washing for help, washing clothes and so on for help. It was a real burden for her. I don't think when she married my father, she didn't realize what type of work is involved in a big ranch because if you have 400 acres, you need a lot of help. Cooking and so on, housing these people to a certain degree. Bauman: Do you remember any of the other buildings that were there? Your sister mentioned the cook house, I think. Bruggemann: The cook house is still there. Bauman: The building is still there, right? Bruggemann: Yeah. No not, not really there. There must've been some big barns and so on there but I just don't remember that at all. I remember having a dog. Bauman: Yeah. And you mentioned the size of the property, obviously, your father must have hired a number of workers. Bruggemann: Oh, yes, yes. Bauman: Do you remember workers being around? Bruggemann: No, no, no, not really. The only thing I remember was loading--my father would take the fruit to the rails, to the, what was it? What was the rail track station? Anyway there's a there's a railroad station there. And one day— Holm: [INAUDIBLE] Bruggemann: No, no. Priest Rapids or something. Anyway one day a big train came in and the engineer, the driver of the train, saw me standing down there with my father and he asked me, do you want a Coke? I must've said yes and he threw me down a Coke. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Bruggemann: Which really impressed me at that time. Bauman: That is something that you would remember. Bruggemann: But that was also something that was very important, getting the fruit out of there, getting it onto the train. Make sure things are running, make sure the fruit gets to the right storage and so on, the cool house. Bauman: What was the weather like? Do you remember winters or summers at all? Bruggemann: No, I don't remember winters at all, but summers were warm. Warm, very warm. Bauman: And you mentioned having a dog. Bruggemann: Yeah Bauman: Young people today are used to a lot of things to keep themselves entertained, and so they would probably want to know, as a young child, what did you do on the farm? You were probably too little to have any chores or anything like that, right? Bruggemann: No, no. My mother would probably ask me to set the table or something maybe, but no, I was really, really too young. And I think also, that my sister and I were quite a burden for my mother. Because she had so much work to do and she had entertain us also. And by the way, your comment is interesting to me because young people today tend to say to the mother: I'm bored, fix that please. I never said that once my life. I took life as it came and that's one of the reasons I liked school so much because school was for me then, exciting. Bauman: So then in 1943 when you had to move, when your family had to move, you said you moved essentially to Yakima then? Bruggemann: We moved here into Yakima into a rented house while my father looked for a farm out here on Englewood Avenue then. Holm: The Canfield--he bought the Canfield house. Bruggemann: The Canfield house, okay. Holm: He was a representative for the state or something. He never liked that house. Bauman: So I interviewed a number of people as I explained to you earlier, both people who lived in the area before 1943 and then people came to work at Hanford during the war. Why do you think it'd be important for people to learn about--know about, learn about--these communities, these farmers, and families that were there before World War II. Bruggemann: Well, one reason, the hardships that people were willing to go through. If at that time I would have been say, 20, 25 and I got a letter or something, saying you can earn a lot of money if you go to Hanford, well sure, I could have probably earned a lot of money but it would have been a lot of hardship also. And I think that's much different than today. People are not willing to go through hardship like that--building up a community in that short of time and working hard, maybe more than eight hours a day, to get that project working. An atomic bomb was a very important thing, you know? It was one of the factors of winning the war. Bauman: Right. Are there any other memories, either of the farm itself, the ranch, the area that you still remember or think about, sort of standout? Bruggemann: No, no, I just remember also a hardship. Now, now look. If my wife wants some butter, like this morning she told me I need butter. So what do I do, I get in my car, I drive a mile down to Freddy Meyer, have a butter within five minutes and I'm back again. If something happened on the ranch, my dad or my mother made an hour trip driving on roads that weren't nearly as nice as they are today. Bauman: Right. Bruggemann: So this hardship--I noticed that. That was always a big thing. I'm sure my father had many flat tires coming to Yakima. Bauman: Right. So things we take for granted today, a lot more work. Bruggemann: Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, life is so easy now. You're like, let's take Freddy Meyer for an example. I was in that store this morning, it's huge and has everything that I can think of. Bauman: Mm-hm. Bruggemann: If my mother at the ranch wanted some little thing she had to go to Yakima to get it. There was no other way of purchasing that. Meaning a trip, a dirty trip to Yakima one hour both ways. Holm: [INAUDIBLE] White Bluffs. Some of these little towns had a few--a grocery store or something. Bruggemann: Yes, but-- Holm: I remember, I think he went to Sunnyside. Bruggemann: Yeah. Bauman: So I just want one more question unless you have something else you want to talk about but what would you like people to know or understand or remember about your family and the ranch? You know, we were talking earlier, the cook house that's there is one of the few buildings from pre '43 that's still standing that people can see as a concrete reminder that there were families there. Bruggemann: Yes. Bauman: So is there anything that you, that either of you would like people to understand if that they get a chance to see that building. Bruggemann: Well I don't know, the German word, pioniergeist, the willingness to pioneer something. That is the important thing. And then my mother going into this pioniergeist type of thing and finding it a terrible burden. I mean things don't always work out perfectly, you know? And then something like this war situation coming up, and just completely changing your life--now for me it was probably a good change. I think I had an advantage, getting in right away at the age of six, going to a nice school here in Yakima which was probably much better than I would have had out at the ranch. Bauman: Right. Makes sense. Bruggemann: Yup. I also at that time, as opposed to today, I had very good teachers. 50-year-old women that knew what they were doing. Bauman: I was just thinking, your parents in some ways came from very different places, right? Bruggemann: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Bauman: So was your father bilingual? Did he speak English and German? Bruggemann: Yes, German and English both, yes. Sure. Bauman: Oh, okay. And did he speak both at home there? Bruggemann: No, we didn't, at home we spoke English--my mother's language. Bauman: Right, sure. Did you learn any German from your father growing up? Bruggemann: No, no I didn't. I learned German the hard way. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, the last question I wanted to ask, is there anything that you want to add? Or some memory that we haven't talked about yet? Holm: Do you remember the hermit? Bruggemann: The hermit? No. Holm: On the way to Sunnyside? We'd always stop and talk to him and he just was thrilled to death, talking to my mom, our mom. Bruggemann: No, no. I don't know that. Bauman: That's right, you had mentioned him. Bruggemann: I only remember--Do you remember the halfway house? Holm: Well the name, yeah. Bruggemann: The halfway house was an abandoned house that was sort of halfway to Yakima. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Oh, so that’s why it’s the halfway house? Bruggemann: Yeah, halfway house. Yeah they never tore it down, they just let it and yeah it doesn't exist anymore. But that's also an indication that it was quite a trip to Yakima, you know? Holm: I guess it was quite a trip when I had to go to the bathroom all the time, I'm not doing them well. I just want to kick them and go through the boards. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So I guess, you mentioned the Wills family? Bruggemann: The Wills, yes. Bauman: Any other family names you remember? Bruggemann: No, no. I don't know. Holm: Gilhuly. Bauman: Gilhuly. Holm: And Frye. Frye just died here, not too long ago. Bauman: Okay, so I think you had mentioned that Gilhuly name when I was here. Holm: F-R-Y-E, I think it is. Bauman: One other question I was going to ask, did you have a radio or did you get a newspaper at all? I'm curious how you learned about, your family, if you know. Bruggemann: Yes we surely had a radio but the radio became important here in Yakima, I thought because my dad would sit in the evenings--not at the TV but he would sit at the radio- and he would get the two children and say come on, listen in. And there were also some plays or something on the radio that were entertaining. Pardon? Holm: The Cinnamon Bear every evening. Bauman: Okay. Holm: We didn't have TV until like '51. Bruggemann: No, no. See TV was much later. Bauman: Yeah. I just wondered if radio or newspaper, if you— Bruggemann: No, no. Well, we had the Yakima Herald newspaper everyday, but we listened a lot in the evenings to radio. Just like people sit in front of the TV nowadays. Bauman: Okay, well thank you very much. I appreciate it. Bruggemann: Well I wish I knew more, but in one way it's amazing to me, too, that I have such a fragile memory of the whole thing, you know? But things changed then when we came to Yakima. Bauman: Sure. I don't know that I remember much before I turned five, so. Bruggemann: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: But yeah, I appreciate you taking the time out of your trip here to the states. Bruggemann: Sure. Well, I am very, very willing to do this. It's important to show a good picture of history, the way it was. And especially this project. I think this project—whew, any place in the world, it is surely a huge project that worked and worked under pressure too. A lot of pressure. Bauman: Right. And we were talking earlier, we want to preserve as many of the memories- both of the people who came to work on the project and also people who were here before that, make sure people understand there were farmers and towns there. Bruggemann: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: That's important. Again, thank you very much, I really appreciate it. Bruggemann: Okay. Bauman: All right. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data mp4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:28:13 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 189 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ~1925-1943 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Mary Bruggemann Gary and Margaret Wills Gary Peterson Gilhuly Frye Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ludwig Bruggemann Description An account of the resource An interview with Ludwig Bruggemann conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09-08-2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-27-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Cook Hanford River School Sun War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F751fe2d10a51ca573640af9f812eb806.JPG 45735fa368174ec64ab6f85a07746382 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0972a37cea642f27a4da176071ad6e05.mp4 8c8102ed8125b4874d40e7b73279b517 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Luzell Johnson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [woman off-camera]: Can you see? Do I need to move that stuff out the way? Vanis Daniels: Yeah, we’ll move. [man off-camera]: I need to move up closer, too. Daniels: We’ll move all this stuff out of the way. [man off-camera]: And I need to move up closer. It’d be nice if we had him sitting back, away from the table. Daniels: Sitting back a little bit? [man off-camera]: Can you move back away from the table so we can— Daniels: Okay. [man]: So we get the— Daniels: I can—now, you want me to just pull him back? [man]: Well, he can stay right up to the table there where he is. I can just get on the end here. What I wanted to do was get it so we don’t have to pick up a whole bunch of stuff before we get to him. Because when we get ready to edit it, we’ll need to zoom it. We’ll need to do some zooming and stuff, too. Daniels: Now, we also can move the table back, too. [woman off-camera]: That’s right. That might be easier. [man off-camera]: Let’s just move the tables back. Slide it. Because I really don’t need nothing in front of us. Daniels: All right. We should have enough room now. [man off-camera]: That’s real good right there, I think. Daniels: Okay. All right. You need this? You don’t? All right. [man off-camera] These can come down a little more. That’s good. That should be good. That’s good right there. Now, we’re going to need a microphone on him. Daniels: I don’t need a microphone. Ah, damn. [Interviewer 1]: Mr. Johnson, we’re doing some work on the Manhattan Project here. You came to work on this area during this time, during the Manhattan Project in the 1943-1944 timeframe. Could you tell us or describe how you got here, how you heard about Hanford and a little bit about how you ended up here? Luzell Johnson: My sister and her husband, Joe Williams, they was in California working on a plant. And they left there and come to Hanford. And when they got there, they started working on the Hanford Project. They come home in February, I think, and they were telling me about—they told me about the job. They asked me if I wanted to come move out there— [Interviewer 1]: When you said they came home, where was home? Johnson: Alabama. Finchburg, Alabama. [Interviewer 1]: What was that in Alabama again? Johnson: Finchburg, Alabama. [Interviewer 1]: Frenchburg, Alabama. Can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing in Frenchburg before they came home and talked you into coming here? Johnson: I was working in a creosote plant. [Interviewer 1]: And at that creosote plant, what did you do there? What kind of—what were you doing, doing the work there? Johnson: Toiling, working on crane. [Interviewer 1]: And then could you describe, what, when you got ready to come out here, or getting ready to come out here in the transportation in getting out here, could you tell us a little bit about that? And then what you did when you got out here. Johnson: My brother had bought an old ’41 Plymouth, and he and Joe was working around places. He gave me the Plymouth. I drove the ’41 Plymouth out here. You want to know who come with me? [Interviewer 1]: Yes, I’d sure like to know who— Johnson: Emmett Brown and Charlie Dart and—I can’t think of the other— [Interviewer 1]: And those were all relatives of yours or were they just friends and relatives? Johnson: They was Joe’s sister’s kids. [Interviewer 1]: When you arrived in the Tri-Cities or Pasco, could you tell us a little bit about what it was like, what you found when you got here? Johnson: Well, I found the job was available when I got here. I went to a job when I was hired in, I was hired in as a cement finisher. And they didn’t have no spot to put a cement finisher. They put me as a laborer, sweeping floors. And I got a card to go to the army. I went to the superintendent and showed him the card, and he told me, why you didn’t come out as a finisher? I said, foreman told me they didn’t have no spots for a finisher. He told me, yes, we do have plenty of room for a finisher. Where’s your tools? I said, they back at the camp. He said, bring your tools out here in the morning, and I’ll put you in as a finisher. He put me on finishing. I got the card to go to the army. To go to the army, a 3-A, I think it was. [Interviewer 1]: On your living conditions when you got here, did you live in Pasco or did you come into Pasco and then go from Pasco out to Hanford, which is about another 40 miles? Johnson: Mm-hm. [Interviewer 1]: You lived in Pasco and then before you went off to the barracks, or did you come in and just go on out to Hanford in the next few days? Johnson: I went on out to Hanford. My sister was running the eating place. [Interviewer 1]: That’s the mess hall out there? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 1]: Yes, and I believe that we interviewed her and she told us a little bit about learning to do the juggling act on how she could handle all the food on her arm, how they taught her how to do all of that. Towards the end of the Manhattan Project, when that was winding down in late 1944 and early 1945, could you tell me a little bit about, you know, did you just stay here in Pasco, or did you go to Tacoma or go back to Alabama and come back, or--? Johnson: I went to Alabama, and I went down to the creosote plant. And the man offered my job back. I told him—he asked me what was I getting? And I told him I was getting a dollar an hour. And he said, would you come back? I told him, no, I wouldn’t come back for $0.35. I was getting $0.35 where I lived, an hour. So I come back there to Pasco. I come back to Pasco. I bought a little place in Pasco and that’s where I lived at 321 South Front Street in Pasco. I lived there for a good while and I decided to buy me a place, a bigger place of my own. I lived there on the place—George had a place out there, I lived on George place. And I bought some land and I built a house. [Interviewer 1]: During the time you came, during the Manhattan Project out there, I noticed there were some other people out there, African Americans, like my uncle Daniels, Willy Daniels and Vanis Daniels, and my father-in-law, David Casterburg also worked out there. Is that when you met those people for the first time, primarily Mr. Daniels, because I know you guys was great friends. Is that where you first met him? Johnson: That’s right. [Interviewer 1]: Tell us a little bit about what you guys did in the social life part of it. Would you go to church, play ball, or what did you do? Johnson: Play ball. I would go and look at them playing ball. I couldn’t play ball. I wasn’t good enough to play on the league. But Vanis and Daniel and the tall black man, I can’t call his name— [Interviewer 1]: Noble Johnson? Johnson: No. [Interviewer 1]: Was it Noble Johnson? Johnson: Mm-mm. Marion Zack. Daniels: Talking about Zack. [Interviewer 1]: Marion Zack? Zack Johnson? I’d forgotten about them, man. Well, and then you went back to Alabama. So kind of like what my relatives did. They worked and then they went back home, found out that, like you said, the pay was about what you said, from what I remember, and then when I came in ’47 it was kind of that way. So knowing what was out there, you came back out here and this is where you’ve lived since then. Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 1]: Thank you, Mr. Johnson. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. Mr. Luzell, we’re going to back up, I need just a little bit of background information, okay? Now, what is your full name? Johnson: Luzell Johnson. [Interviewer 2]: No middle name. Okay, what year were you born? Johnson: 1912. [Interviewer 2]: 1912? Johnson: May 11th. [Interviewer 2]: May the 11th, 1912? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. Do you remember how to spell the name of the town where you say you were born in— Johnson: Remember what? [Interviewer 2]: The name of the town you were born in? Johnson: Finchburg, Alabama. [Interviewer 2]: Is that F-L-I-N-C-H? Johnson: F-I-N-C-H. [Interviewer 2]: F-I-N-C-H. Finchville, Alabama? Johnson: Burg. [Interviewer 2]: Finchburg, B-U-R-G? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. What’s your parents’ name? Johnson: Byas Johnson and Frances. [Interviewer 2]: Miles and Frances Johnson? Johnson: Byas Johnson was Pa’s name. [Interviewer 2]: Miles Johnson, okay. Johnson: Byas, B-Y-A-S. [Interviewer 2]: Okay, I’m sorry. And your mother’s name? Johnson: Frances. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. Were they born in Finchburg, too? Johnson: I don’t know, I think. [Interviewer 2]: You don’t remember. How many brothers and sisters did you have? Johnson: Three sisters and five brother. [Interviewer 2]: Are any of them alive now? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: How many? Johnson: Two. [Interviewer 2]: Two brothers. Any sisters? Johnson: Yeah. [Interviewer 2]: How many? Johnson: Two—three. [Interviewer 2]: Two brothers and three sisters? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. What kind of work do you remember your parents doing? Johnson: Farming. [Interviewer 2]: Farming. Did they own their own land? They were sharecroppers? Sharecroppers? Johnson: Yes. [Interviewer 2]: Okay, so you came out here with your brother named Joe? Okay, and he had been out here already previously? Johnson: Yes. [Interviewer 2]: He had come out here before and worked for a while? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: And then he wrote and told you about it and that’s when you knew you wanted to come out here? Johnson: He came home. [Interviewer 2]: Oh, he came home. Okay. And do you remember exactly what year that was, Mr. Johnson, that you came out here? Johnson: ’33. [Interviewer 2]: ’33? Okay. Okay, and then he came home, what did he tell you exactly about this area when he came home? What did he tell you? Johnson: That I could go to work and get more money. [Interviewer 2]: He told you—did he tell you what kind of work you’d be doing? Johnson: Mm-mm. [Interviewer 2]: He just told you you could come out here and get a job. And then as I understood, you guys came by car. Did he come with you, or did you come by yourself? Johnson: He came with me. [Interviewer 2]: He came with you. Y’all drove the ’41? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. And then, after you got here, tell me exactly, Mr. Johnson, when you got here, how many other blacks do you think were here at that time? Johnson: Oh, quite a few working on the job. [Interviewer 2]: Already? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: In ’43. Mm-hmm. Now tell me, when you got to Pasco, did black people have houses? We’ve been told—I’ve been told that black people didn’t have houses in ’43. Did they have houses? Johnson: Yeah. [Interviewer 2]: They did? Can you remember any of the blacks that were when you got here already? Johnson: Mr. and Mrs. Coleman. [Interviewer 2]: Mr. and Mrs. Coleman. Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Anybody else? Johnson: I can’t think of his name— [Interviewer 2]: Was Katie Mooney here when you got here? Johnson: Mm-mm. [Interviewer 2]: She was not? Was Miss Arlene Johnson here? Johnson: Mm-mm. [Interviewer 2]: She was not? Johnson: I didn’t know them. [Interviewer 2]: You didn’t know them, but they could have been here? I see. Now, where did you live when you got here? Johnson: Oh. [Interviewer 2]: The time you got here, where did you live? Johnson: I lived in the barracks. [Interviewer 2]: In the barracks at Hanford? They was segregated? Johnson: I guess they was. [Interviewer 2]: Blacks were in one area and whites were in another? Johnson: I don’t remember. [Interviewer 2]: You don’t remember. Johnson: I don’t think they was, though. [Interviewer 2]: Do you remember anything at all about the barracks? Tell me what you remember. Johnson: I remember you’d sleep in the barracks and you’d get up and go to the mess hall and eat. [Interviewer 2]: Get up and go to the mess hall and eat. And how long did y’all work out there? What kinds of work days did you guys have? Like, long work days or just eight hour work days, or what? Johnson: Eight-hour days. [Interviewer 2]: Eight-hour days. And the pay was a dollar a day? Johnson: An hour. [Interviewer 2]: An hour. And then, Mr. Johnson, when you were out there and you’d go to work and you’d come home to the barracks and to sleep, what did you do after work? What was the average day like? You didn’t just go to work for eight hours and come, go back and lay down. What did you do after work? Johnson: Go to a ball game. [Interviewer 2]: Go to a ball game? And that’s the Negro—the team that they had out at Hanford, do you remember the name of it? Okay, anything else they did out there for social life, other than the ball games? Johnson: I can’t really remember. [Interviewer 2]: You can’t remember. The lunch room, was it like a café sometime too? Johnson: No— [Interviewer 2]: At night? Johnson: Yeah, it was like a café. [Interviewer 2]: A café, didn’t they sell alcohol? Johnson: Mm-mm. [Interviewer 2]: They didn’t? Didn’t they bring entertainers out there? Do you remember any of them? Johnson: Lord. I picture them. Oh. [Interviewer 2]: That’s all right if you can’t remember that. Okay, tell me, tell me about when the church came. When was the first time you went to a black church over here in this area? Johnson: I didn’t go to a black church. I started a church in my home. [Interviewer 2]: And that was Morning Star? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: What year was that? Johnson: I don’t know. [Interviewer 2]: About 54 years ago now, huh? Johnson: 55. [Interviewer 2]: 55 years ago. And that was the first black church in this area? What did y’all do for church before then? You just didn’t go? Johnson: No, that wasn’t the first Baptist church here. The Holiness Church is the first Baptist church. [Interviewer 2]: Oh, it was the Holiness Church here? Johnson: Yeah. [Interviewer 2]: How long had it been here? Was it here when you got here? Johnson: Yeah. [Interviewer 2]: And that’s where the black people went that went to church? Were there a lot of women working out at Hanford? Johnson: Mm-mm. [Interviewer 2]: Just in the mess hall? How long did you work at Hanford? Johnson: Worked until 1935, I think. [Interviewer 2]: You mean ’55? [Interviewer 1]: ’45, is when-- [Interviewer 2]: 1945? [Interviewer 1]: That was the end of the Manhattan Project. Johnson: When the war ended. [Interviewer 2]: When the war ended. Then what did you do next after you went back home and came back out here? What kind of work did you get when you came back out here? Johnson: I did—I was a cement finisher. [Interviewer 2]: Okay. Were there soldiers here during that time? Johnson: Mm-hmm. [Interviewer 2]: Where were they living at? Johnson: Navy base at Big Pasco. [Interviewer 2]: Were there a lot more men here than women during those days? ’43, ’44, ’45? Johnson: It was just soldiers here, more men. [Interviewer 2]: It was more men. What year did your sister come? Did she come right behind you? Sister Rae did? Johnson: Sister Rae? No, she—I came out here with them. [Interviewer 2]: Oh, she was with you when you came out here. Let me ask you something. When you—how long were you here before you got married? Did you get married out here? You didn’t? Johnson: I think I did get married out here, but I sat back and got my girlfriend and we got married at the courthouse here. [Interviewer 2]: I see. And how many children did you have? Johnson: Just one by that wife. [Interviewer 2]: How many do you have altogether? Johnson: Five. [Interviewer 2]: All living? Johnson: Mm-mm. Three are living. [Interviewer 2]: Just a couple more questions I want to ask you if you can remember now. Just take your time on this one. What do you remember as the worst thing that was going on here when you got here for black people? Johnson: Drinking and shooting dice. [Interviewer 2]: Drinking and shooting dice, that was the worst thing that was happening for black people? That’s not too bad for some people. Okay. What was the best thing that was going on here when you got here, beside the pay? I know you like the pay. What else good when you first got here from the South, what was the best thing that you liked other than the pay? Johnson: Ball games. [Interviewer 2]: The ball games. Okay, Brother Johnson, thank you very much. <a href="https://youtu.be/NArRQGHWChs">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Luzell Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Segregation Description An account of the resource Luzell Johnson moved to Pasco, Washington in 1944 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/18/2002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F136b57b49802c62e334499fb23250059.jpg a73bc7c6ab1251eb09868a60b00e43d3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8832d07538c7cedca9e98754d3d6d5f5.mp4 31f99181e731a987de313d7dc5528804 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lyle Wilhimi Description An account of the resource An interview with Lyle Wilhimi conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F91bc830435e20ab2f167731f6753a29d.jpg 07c79fb937ae0c69b708d6ee69024c9f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F44d03d7ad701c05fcea08001a735079b.mp4 a1c266e40348c4f877dd5bfacbd661ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeleine Gilles Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Northwest Public Television | Gilles_Madeleine </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Robert Bauman: My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Madeleine Gilles. And this is July 2nd of 2013. The interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Madeleine Gilles about her family's history, her years growing up in Richland. So let's start with that, if we could. If you could tell me about how and when, why your family came to Richland. Anything about when and why they came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Madeleine Gilles: Well, they came from Montana--Butte. I was about a year and a half old I think. And I guess they wanted to change from a miner to a farmer. And he was from-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Croatia it looked like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Croatia, yes. And my mother was American. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Mr. Patricia and John Serdar. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: S-E-R-D-A-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And did you have any brothers or sisters? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I had two sisters which are a year and eight or nine months between the three of, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Mm-hm, okay. And so when you came to Richland, did you have a farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I don't know how he came by a farm, but I know that he had 10 acres on a flat. And my mother's father, my grandfather, lived up on a little hill above us. It's now out at, behind that Richland airport. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Okay. That's where the land was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. It's still fenced off. There's nothing on it. [LAUGHTER] And it was by the irrigation ditch where we lived on the hill part. And the irrigation ditch had that flume across the little bitty gully onto downtown Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And you used irrigation water on farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: From that. Yes. They had weirs that went out to the fields and filled up. And you could water from there. They built little wooden waterways to where they wanted it, and then they'd have rails. And they'd flood the rails and then move it on to the next part of the field until they got it watered. And the ditch riders came by and kept watch on wherever it come out from the irrigation ditch. I forgot what they called those. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What kind of crops did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We had alfalfa and a big garden and strawberries and grapes and raspberries. So we were busy. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And did you have any animals on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. We had about ten cows. And they pastured over where the golf course is now. Oh, I forget the name of it. It's a pony. [LAUTHER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Horse name. Anyway there's a golf course down there now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Where the pastures were? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Where the pastures were, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so, the alfalfa, was that a crop you grew and sold? Or was that used for your animals? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, it's to feed the animals in the winter. You cut it and stacked it and put it on a wagon and hauled it over and threw it up on a haystack. [LAUGHTER] One way or another, in the barns, they used to take the horses and somehow off of the hay wagon. They wrapped it up, and then the horses went ahead and drew it up into the loft. That way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so, what other buildings were on your property besides the house itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: The barn. And we had a cellar, a ground cellar, and it was covered with dirt and had to open up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What was stored in there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, canned fruit and things that--sauerkraut in the barrel and anything like that. And then we had where we kept the potatoes and the turnips and all that stuff in another building. And we had chickens. Of course, they harvested the turkeys in the fall. I don't know where they sold them, down to the butcher or somebody. And then we had the barn down the hill farther in front of the haystack, and that was--and there was a barnyard of course. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Growing up, did you have jobs that were yours on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. Worked all day outside and in the sun. [LAUGHTER] Hoeing weeds and picking strawberries early in the morning. We worked for people who had lots of asparagus. We cut asparagus early in the morning. In the spring, you know? And my mother worked in the packing shed, and they packed the asparagus ready for market. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Was this someone else in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I don't know. I think they shipped it. They shipped it in wooden crates. Not too big because they'd get smashed. And the strawberries, the same way. We picked strawberries. We picked apples. We picked pears. We did those kind of things for other people, plus we picked our own fruit so our mother could can them. And we was busy. We had to bring the cows from the pasture home in the morning after cutting asparagus—about 3:00 in the morning, you get up, cut asparagus, bring the cows home and milk them and take them back. Get ready for school. It was busy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That's a lot of work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, but it didn't hurt me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you have time to do fun things--swimming or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yeah. We went down the irrigation ditch down to where it kind of stops down at where there's land and it kind of opened up a little space where kids could come. And we'd go swimming and take a bath [LAUGHTER] with soap. Didn't do much good because you had to run back up the flume home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: But anyway it was--and well, at school, we did our sports, softball and basketball and went to different little towns for competition games. And see who'd go to Spokane. We went one year, but we lost by--for basketball--lost by one point. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. I saw a picture of a basketball team-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, I was in it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: In the picture, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What position did you play on the basketball team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What position did you play on the basketball team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Guard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember any of the other young women who were on the team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: John Dam’s daughter was. She was forward. And I forget her name, but Margaret somebody was center. And I don't remember them all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: You must've been a good athlete then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I guess I was. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, there's also in that book, a note that you had won a race. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: A race. Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: At a picnic? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. At the end of the year, they'd have school competition between the grades and stuff. And that was for my running. Because we did a lot of running in soft sand. So when you go on hard surface, you could really go. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How did you get to school? Did you walk to school? A bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, no. A bus came, and we could see it when we lived on the little hill above the flat surface where we were at first. We could see it. Then we'd take off and run down to the corner and catch the bus. And then he'd pick up all the rest of the kids and go down to Richland. The school was behind John Day and Nelson's mercantile store there. There was a gas station there and a church where we had baccalaureate and all that stuff there from the grade school. And the high school was down the road from the grade school. Richland High. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Right. Do you remember any of your teachers from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, Carmichael and—oh, I don't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Any idea how big, how many-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Kids? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Kids there were. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I think there was about 500 people. So they must have had at least three or four kids. So multiply that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We had a lot of kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I want go back. You mentioned your parents earlier. And your father was an immigrant from Croatia. Did he speak English? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Not very well. There was nobody for me to talk to but the animals. [LAUGHTER] Because my mother didn't converse with him. Because she didn't know his language. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And how had they met? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, at a dance in Montana--Butte. And he knew her father in the mines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I see. And they got married and moved out-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. However, they were advertising at that time for homesteading in the '20s, you know. I was born in 1920. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: How they got there, I don't know. Because they never talked, and I didn't know what to ask them anyway. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Now, did you have electricity at all in your home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. Kerosene light, lamp, and lantern to go to the barn and milk in the winter and stuff like that. Had kerosene. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And did you have--how did you get from--did you have a car at any time, or was it horse and wagon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: First of all, it was a wagon with a bed in it. We rode it in the back, and they rode in the front of course. And took a long time to get there, [LAUGHTER] wherever we was going. They belonged to the grange. And we'd go there for their meetings and dances. And my mother played piano, and she played for the drill team and for the dances along with other musicians. And they used to have house parties in the wintertime. They'd clear the floor, and whoever could come to play--and if there was a piano there, my mother played. And they danced or they played cards or--that was their entertainment, so to speak. Go from house to house to play cards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember any other events? Were there 4th of July-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. We'd go to the park. What is that park called? Where the golf course is--on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Howard Amon Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, no. It's a golf course on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Columbia Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. They'd go along there, and people would come. And they'd make homemade ice cream, and they'd do their wieners or whatever—chicken, it usually was--a lot of fried chicken and pies and cakes, and they had a good time. And then, as I remembered, they used to shoot firecrackers off of the old green bridge and do their fireworks there. So everybody'd go down by the river there and watch them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: The fireworks there. There was a ferry that would take people across the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you do that very often? Take the ferry across the river? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, we didn't. But we did go down to the Columbia, down to the boom where they caught wood and trees and stuff and get our wood for the winter, or if you happened to be lucky, get a part of a tree or something. They'd saw it up and have some wood to build something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you interact with any Native Americans in the area very often? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. When the fishing season was on, they used to go up to the Yakima someplace where there was a little dam. But they put their tents out across the ditch from us, and they'd have little tents. And then they'd have a three-sided tent where they'd have their fires out there and cook their fish and dry it and stuff like that. We had to drive the cows by the trail, went right by their camping site. [LAUGHTER] And my mother used to say to my little sister, "Rosie, if you don't be good, I'm going to give you to the Indians.” [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What about any neighbors or were there children from other families-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --there a lot? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, Arstolds and-- they didn't live close. They had their own acreage and stuff. And we used to go to their house a lot. And Bumgarnters and--gee, I can't think of their names now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That's okay. So in terms of the weather here--it can get pretty darn hot as we know today— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --in the summer and pretty cold at times in the winter with no electricity. What was that like? Do you have any memories of the heat or the wind or the winter weather? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, we just made do. We had wood for fire. In the cook stove was the heater of the room. We only had two rooms on the hill, and the one house we lived on in the flat was a big one room thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: And my grandfather, after he died, we moved up there. And the cook stove kept us warm, but it didn't go all night. [LAUGHTER] You had to get up in the morning and put the kindling in and light it and get it going. And in the summer, you just stopped. And again, in the shade, that's all you could do. And it got really hot because there was no trees. No trees. And now you have green and trees. It makes it cooler. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you get many dust storms? Do you remember many dust storms? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. Lots of hard sand would blow against your legs when you was going back and forth to the pasture. Ooh. That really stung. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How about any wild animals? Were there coyotes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, coyotes, and rabbits. They used to have rabbit drives. A lot of men would get together so far apart and they'd drive the rabbits in front of them and then shoot them. Because they were a real menace. They get into your garden and eat everything up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah, I've heard about those before. Eating the crops were the problem, or the gardens, yeah. So I understand that you had a little bit of an accident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes, I found a blasting cap that my dad had brought from Butte to blow up the sagebrush. It was big and tough to make more land, you know. And so I found an old one, and I thought it was full of dirt, picked at it and it blew up. Took my fingers off. But I made it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How old were you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I was 16 and very upset about it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so did you have to go to a doctor or a hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, went to Lourdes, and Dr. Spalding took care of my hand. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And was that the only hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Only one. And it was 13 miles, and the neighbors that had bought the flat--one room shack--took me over there. It was 13 miles or something. And I had to wait for a baby to be born before they could take care of me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: But they decided to keep my hand and not cut it off because it looked so bad. So I have a hand, just not the digits. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How long did you have to stay at the hospital? How long did it take to recover? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I stayed there longer than I need to do because I didn't have any place to go. My mother and father got a divorce, and she was very ill with arthritis. It's the kind that just comes overnight, and I forget the name of it. But it's a bad one. And so she and I were in the hospital the same time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: So they kept me there, and then I went to work--for three months they kept me, and I worked folding bandages and stuff before they autoclaved them or sterilized them. And then I worked at the doctor's home for his son--to take care of his baby son. Then I got to go down and eat at their restaurant in the evening. So I was just the daytime stuff, and I stayed there. And I was there till I decided that I needed to go to school and learn to work over. So I went to the Catholic school in Spokane--the House of Good Shepherd it was at that time. And they took wayward girls, but they decided my sisters and I would be a help at the place to do other things. But to mind the rules the same as they had to, which was okay with me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So how long were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh about two and a half years. My sister Mary was there 13 years, and Rosie was there 10 or so. But they did like Mary. She run the movie machine and helped the nuns. And I worked in the kitchen, and of course I learned to work. And worked in the where we ate in the cafeteria. And I got to go with the nuns when they went soliciting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So did you grow up Catholic then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Was there a Catholic church in the area anywhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, we had to come to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: My mother brought a few children, and my sisters over in the summer for us to take our catechism. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So Kennewick was the place to go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. So we got our proper papers to be a Catholic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember what the name of the church was in Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: St. Joseph's as far as I know. That was the first church, and I think it was on—I don’t know--down by the canal. Now I don't know where it is for sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. I think it's on Clearwater now, but it used to be on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And now I think it's on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. I know where that one is now, but I don't know where they moved the old church. Yeah, it's on Garfield--the new church, St. Joseph. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So after you were in Spokane for about two and half years. What happened to you at that point? Where did you go from there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Where did you go after you were in Spokane? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, I worked at a home and took care of invalid fellow and his baby when the family was gone. And I worked in the kitchen and fed the baby and all this. And they rang a bell for me [LAUGHTER] to come and wait on the table and stuff. And then they split up the families. The mother and father and the husband and wife moved out. So then I came out to--where did I go? Oh. I have to think. Where did I go? Oh, I went back to Richland, and I lived with a family that--he worked on the freeways and highways building, and she was home with two or three kids. And so I stayed there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: And in the summertime, we'd get to go to up in the mountains where they built highways. I forget the name of the one we was that one summer. Anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Remember the name of the family that you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, Drieslers. Jack Driesler, and Nellie. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And then you said your parents got a divorce around the time you were 16, also. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so what happened to the family farm when your parents got divorced? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: The government bought it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so did that happen when you were in Spokane that the government bought-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Or later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. I was at 16, and I was born in 1920. So that was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That was 1936. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And the government came in '43. So it would've been later. So did both your parents stay in Richland after they got divorced? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. He went back to mining up in Metaline Falls where his brother lived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And how about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: She stayed here and married a guy that he lived out there by our school teacher. But when Hanford bought them out, they moved to Prosser and had a mint farm. And then my mother, she died young. She was 53. She died in '55. She had like emphysema and kidney problems. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: You mentioned that your grandfather had some land them on the hill above you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Now, did he stay there until '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. He passed away before we moved up there. So that's how come we moved up there. Some of this is mixed up, I know. But I think it's off. [LAUGHTER] Been a long time ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, any--either events that really stand out in your mind or really special memories or anything like that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Not that I can think of at the moment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: There was a continual-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Speak up. I can't-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --relationship between Rosie who was the youngest girl and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We were raised together. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --Mary. And they ganged up against Mary and pulled all kind of pranks like— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --chucking cow patties at her and stuff like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So a little sibling rivalry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, she wanted to boss everything. [LAUGHTER] When she hears that, she'll--she's still alive. And Rosie wasn't going to have that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And Rosie was the youngest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. She was feisty. She passed away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And all three of you were in Spokane for a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So what happened--your sisters, when they left Spokane, where did they go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Rosie went with my cousin Tony to Waukegan, Illinois and got a job there where they made pills-- filled pills. I don't know what you call it. But anyway, she got a job there and lived there about five years and came back out and met her husband out at the area. He was a--he drew--what do you call it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Draftsman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Draftsman. And she was a secretary. And they met and married and moved back to Wenatchee where he was from, up there. And lived till they both passed away. Mary is still here with her husband Jim. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And then how about yourself? When the war came, did you move out of the area? Where else did you live besides-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, I was up in Seattle working at the Swedish hospital. And for a while, I worked at the Bon Marche, downtown Seattle and helped the baker in the morning and cleaned the steam table. They had a little restaurant at that time, the Bon Marche did. I helped the baker make pies and cakes and stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And when did you come back to Richland or to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: 1986. 50 years later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Changed quite a bit probably since you've been last living there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, I'm lost yet! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I was wondering what you would think would be important for people to understand about the community of Richland that you grew up in? To understand sort of what it was like to grow up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I think it was a great life. And children worked and there wasn't so much vandalism. And of course, there wasn't that many people, but they were good people. I can't really think of anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, thank you very much for coming in here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: This was terrific. Some really good stories and memories, and I really appreciate you being willing to come and talk with us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: There's probably a lot more, but I'm sorry I don't remember it all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, what you remembered is great. Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Okay. You're welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: It wasn’t too bad, was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, I just wish I knew more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: No, well, what you remembered is really— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: You did a terrific job, I’m proud of you. You obviously knew a ton of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Good, good, good. As I said, some of those memories are great— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Camera man: Can I take a picture before you go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --because people now don’t know— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: They had no electricity, they had no water, I mean you had to pump it out— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: It’ll go along with your information. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: When we put together all the stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I hope it’s a good one! I don’t take good pictures anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: Oh, well, we all say that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: [LAUGHTER] </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:37:27 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1920-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Serdar, John; Gilles, Mary; Gilles, Rosie Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madeleine Gilles Description An account of the resource An interview with Madeleine Gilles conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/2/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [ J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick(Wash,) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Hanford (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F683d0903e185e863f94cbac004511f3c.jpg 126a97bfbec46e8c3e3b8b94a5b06709 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F73a5ca38c0c930ccdf92d8aa09741178.mp4 cee7be331f8d7351565bdbe8b6a38d02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madge Watson Description An account of the resource An interview with Madge Watson conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F19f8673c03062cba662f73057746c3e9.JPG 11589b192b7b88e4df48e0da8e66b896 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F11e1591d4403d3f4f270ed3cdd923b30.mp4 2fe4d5fbd6741845d7707373526ce083 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madge Watson Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Watson_Madge Man one: --Pretty good shape. Robert Bauman: Okay. Man one: Okay. I'm up. I'm rolling. Bauman: Okay. Man two: I’m rolling. Bauman: Okay. All right. Well, why don't you go ahead and say your name just for the record first? Madge Watson: Madge Watson. When I came, I was Madge Shardlow. Bauman: And what was your last name? Watson: Shardlow. Bauman: How do you spell that? Watson: S-H-A-R-D-L-O-W. Bauman: Okay. Thank you very much. My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Madge Watson. Today is July 17th of 2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking today about your experiences working at the Hanford site. So I wonder if you could tell me first how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place, and when that was. Watson: I came in '48, and I was graduating. I was in my senior year at Washington State, Pullman, and I had my degree in bacteriology and public health. And they recruited on campus, and all they would say is, we can't tell you what you're going to be doing. It's very secretive. But you have just the background for it. So it kind of left you wondering what I was doing, but you had to have the FBI clearance and a medical test and all of that. But before long, I got the letter asking if I would like to work here and what to do. And so I said I'll start on the 1st of July. That was '48, and that was the year the Columbia flooded, and it really flooded, and they had put up the dike here. But I don't think I had ever been in this area before. I grew up in Spokane Valley, and we always went up in the mountains when we had time off. So I came down thinking, I'll try it for a year and see how I like it. And so I came down by train, and friends who lived in Kennewick met another girl who had the same degree I did and was coming down just for the summer, and took us to the George Washington Way hiring center there to check in. But you couldn’t—the bridge was washed out of the Yakima, so you had to go over Bombing Range Road, which was just a dirt road, and over the old bridge on the Yakima. Came in, and they said, well, housing is really scarce, because we've used all available housing for people who have been affected by the flood. But they took us out to North Richland to a barracks that had not been used in I don't know how long. It was so dirty, you couldn't believe it. They dropped us off, and they said, you go over here to get your meals—an enormous place there. But we get busy and cleaned up the room that we were assigned to, and went over to get something to eat for lunch and walked into the biggest room I had ever seen. And I didn't see another woman in there. And the girl I was with was blonde and very striking, and there were all these calls, and we thought, what are we into here? [LAUGHTER] So we went back and packed up our bags, our suitcases--we didn't have much--and hitchhiked back into town and went to where they had brought us out from and said, we really don't like it out there. [LAUGHTER] Do you have anything else? Not realizing that people were waiting months to get into town at that time. And they said, who hired you? And we said the right answer. So they found us housing just in back of where the Federal Building is, right away. And coming out of school, it was fine, because everybody was in together, and it was just a regular room with one bed and one dresser and a shower and a bathroom on each floor—it was two stories high. So we settled down and caught our bus and went out to work and found out we were in the water treatment plant for 100 F, and the man who was our supervisor--and I can't think of his name--but he had developed the systems that were used for water treatment in cities. All the new ones were using his design. And so we walked in, and he said, we've got a couple of college graduates, and let us loose on equipment we had never seen before. [LAUGHTER] Washington State didn't have that type of equipment. And so we worked on it, and it was very basic chemistry, so it wasn't anything that was difficult at all. But they started having trouble with the screens clogging up. And so they looked through the files at anybody that had any biological training. They put about six or seven of us in a separate room, gave us microscopes and books, and we learned about diatoms and all of the plankton that might follow screens, and worked on that for several months. And when that project was finished, I was asked if I would like to work in the fisheries building. Well, my mother and father and I all liked fish. I thought that sounded like a good place. So my first supervisor was Jared Davis. He was an entomologist, again, from Washington State. And caddisflies were his specialty. But what they were doing out there is wanting to know what the effect of the reactors that were running would have on the river, especially the fish. They were concerned about that. So we got out there, and it was the winter of '49, I think it was. It was so cold that when we went down to the river to take an area and get all the various things that were in the water off. If you took the rock out of the water, it froze immediately, so you had to do all your gathering under the water there. But I learned so much, because Jared was a good teacher. And it was very interesting, because the fisheries part had been there for several years. Dr. Foster, Dick Foster, was in charge of that. He'd come from the University of Washington. And to know exactly what was happening on the river from the many reactors that were taking the water in and coming out radioactive on some of the things, they had to go through all the different stages of plankton, the insects, the algae, all the various things that were in the river. And so it was really exciting. I brought a greeny that shows--I would like to show you. It wasn't very fancy at all. It was just a Quonset hut, and in between that was a counting—where you could do your counting of your samples. And then on the other side was another Quonset hut with a greenhouse behind it. And they were just getting started. Everybody was new. I would say practically all except the top people had just come out of school. They'd been in the service, and they were really anxious to get going. There was very little known about the effect of radiation on anything at that time. So it was all brand new, and if there was anything known, it was classified, and you had to get it out of the classified material on it. So we did everything. We had places where we grew the things in the lab, where we could have a controlled experiment. We sampled up and down the river. We had a boat that had a driver that could take us out on the river. We could set nets. We could get plankton nets. We could do all kinds of things like that. So every day was new and different, and everything you did led to something else that you wanted to try and find out why. What was doing what was happening? And so what I'm really trying to get across to you is how everybody came so enthused. They had studied in school. They were going to put this to use now, and it was really a very interesting, exciting place to work. I even learned to drive a weapons carrier that you had to double clutch. [LAUGHTER] I'd never thought I'd have to-- Bauman: When did you have to drive that? Watson: We sampled in areas up and down off along the shore out deep. We tried everything, so at that time, they would never let it--when I looked at the job, I know my adviser said, Madge, if you go with--GE was running it—you won't find that you're handicapped by being a woman, that you will have your chances, and it was certainly true. I had every chance to do everything that anybody else did. Bauman: Were there many other women working in the fishery area? Watson: In the fisheries area, there weren't many. But as time went on, more and more came, but—no, there weren't actually. There was Jared and Ray Kupi and, of course, Dick was in charge of it. So they had the regular fish runways that you see. They had ponds outside that were there. Bauman: So it was a fairly small group of people. Watson: It was. It was. In fact, the lab that we had would be about 20 feet long and about eight or nine feet wide. We had a hood at one end, and we had Bunsen burners out everywhere. And I remember that one of the men that was there was—I had hair that was very long, and he was sure I was going to go up in flames. [LAUGHTER] So I would braid it or do something with it to keep it out of the way, because we were just learning and experimenting as we went. Bauman: And so clarify, where was the location of these Quonset huts that you--? Watson: They were not at the main building at 100 F that biology had started up. But they had been put up very early to try and figure out, because everybody was concerned about what effect it would have on the salmon there. I brought along an interesting article on Dick Foster's talking about it, and it has the layout of the place. I don't know if you want to try and get pictures of that eventually or not. Bauman: Maybe we could after. Watson: Yeah, afterwards. Man one: Before you answer the next one, would you tip your glasses just a hair? If you just lift them up on your ear just a little bit like this way. Bauman: Just sort of down a little. Man one: So they tip down just a little bit. I don't want them to be uncomfortable for you. Watson: No, they aren't. Man one: I don't want you to feel like you have to move in a funny way. I'm just getting more reflection than I want. Watson: Reflection than you want, sure. Man one: That's great. Thank you so much. Sorry about that. Watson: Sure. Bauman: No problem. So let's talk a bit about the area. You talked about first arriving and the situation with the housing. What were your impressions of Richland and the Tri-Cities in those early days here? Watson: It was really fun. Living in the dorm, they had so much trouble losing people because of the dust storms, and it was pretty primitive conditions all right. But they put on classes every night, because there was no recreation here for anybody. So I took accounting. I took fly tying. I took hat-making. All kinds of different things. But you only stayed in town about two weekends out of the whole year. People didn't have cars then, which would seem so strange to my grandchildren. [LAUGHTER] But they didn't, but everybody had an FBI clearance. So where you worked, they would put up—the ones with cars would put up where they were going. And you signed up, and then you went with them. So I went in every direction there was from here going places, all with people that-- Bauman: So how did you get to the site? Did you take buses then? Is that how you got to and from the site? Watson: Yes. You got up, and you had a bus that cane by and took you to—there's still the bus transfer station there, and it was much, much larger, of course, at that time. And you got on there, and it was really interesting, because there were so few women going out to the areas that very often the men would stand aside and let the women on first. I'm sure that doesn't happen anymore. [LAUGHTER] But it did then. Bauman: And so you mentioned having security clearance. Obviously, security was a very important part of the Hanford site. Watson: It was. Bauman: I wondered if you'd talk about that a little more and any issues with that. Watson: I'll go from the very first when, of course, the FBI went out and asked neighbors, and a neighbor called my mother and said, the FBI called about Madge, but I didn't tell them a thing. [LAUGHTER] But we had safety meetings one week. We had security meetings the other week. It was really drilled into you that you did not talk about what went on out in the plant and what you were doing. And I really realized that just this year when my daughter was asking me, Mom, you never talked about it. And I realized when I could, I hadn't. Evidently, it just was instilled so much into me not to talk about it. I've been with you all these years, and I didn't even know some of these things that you did. But she knew the people, because the people that you worked with became fast friends, and they truly were fast friends. Bauman: Now, the people you worked with, did they come from all over the United States? Watson: They did. They truly did. I worked this little Quonset hut that had the greenhouse, eventually. The next year, my husband-to-be, Don Watson, came, and he was a fisheries biologist, and they evidently, when they knew we were going to get married, they asked if I'd like to go work in the building next door. So I did. And it was very interesting work too, because they were just starting up, and we went out and went all over, even up to Saddle Mountain taking plant samples and doing the same thing that I'd done before there. And then you probably know of Leo Bustad who came. We had had biochemistry together in college, but he used a sheep as an experimental animal. And the place for that was just in back of where the Quonset was with the greenhouse. And so he needed bacteriological work done when he did postmortems on the animals. And so I got an autoclave and microscope and everything for working. And it was interesting, because there had been a close collaboration between Kadlec Hospital and here, out in the area. And so they did blood work every couple of weeks on everybody to--not that often. Maybe once a month. And so you got to know them. But it was good. You didn't have to have everything here. You could get the auger that you needed, the various dyes, and things like that from the hospital. So all the different groups worked together very well. Bauman: And so Kadlec would do blood tests on everyone regularly? Is that what you're-- Watson: I assume it was Kadlec that did it. I really don't know for sure now whether they had—they came out to the area. You didn't go in there. They came out to the area, and you just did that. But I know that we worked very closely with Kadlec, and some of the people that worked there were the staff of the hospital too there, so it was very much a collaborative effort. Bauman: Now you mentioned your husband was a fisheries biologist. Did you meet at work then? Watson: We did meet at work. He took me fishing, and I caught a fish with a fly I tied myself, and we were married within five months. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So I imagine that most of the people you knew in Richland were connected to Hanford, in some way, worked there. Watson: They were. And every kind of things you got out on the bus. The first time when I got on the bus, I sat down in an aisle seat, and one of the fellows said, do you play bridge? I said, yes. He said, good. Turn around. And out comes the boards they had that would fit between the seats on the aisle there. And so you always had the seat waiting for you there to do that. Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about maybe what were the most rewarding parts of the work you did or maybe some of the most challenging aspects of the work. Watson: I worked with a series of people. After I had worked there and worked with Leo and then with Dr. Berry on another part, I went up to the main offices, and I worked with Dr. Porter, Dr. John Porter. He was growing algae, single cell algae, to do the biochemistry using radioactive materials on there. And it was really interesting, because I learned an aspect—I'd had the medical part, but I hadn't had it using it as experimental. And in all these, it was like being in grad school. You were paid for what you were doing, but you learned so much with everything. You learned. And I think all of us just felt challenged. Bauman: So how long did you work at Hanford, and at what point did you stop working there and why? Watson: When I was expecting my first child, then I stopped working. And I did not go back, but I have, over the years, used so much of what I learned. I was interested in League of Women Voters, and that was at the time the Clean Water Act was doing. And I handed out petitions, and I set up—I attended the meeting on the Columbia as a representative from the local league, and then was asked to set up one on the Snake and on the Yakima River, where we got all the users of water. And since my father and mother had a fruit and vegetable farm that was irrigated, I certainly knew the farming end of it. And what we were trying to do is get people together to understand water and the uses of the water. And one of the things that I was proudest of was the fact that it was the first time an Indian nation had accepted and taken responsibility for attending. At that time, their attorneys and their biologists were non-Native American. But today, it's very different. But we got people to talk in that way. The Yakima River, which at the time, was the dirtiest river in the state, we even had a meat processing plant that the water was taken in, and effluent went right back out into the river at the time. So a lot has been accomplished. But it takes time with everything. Bauman: Was your interest in the Clean Water Act connected to the work you had done at Hanford then? Watson: Yes, because I'd really gotten interested in the water, and, of course, my husband continued to work out there. He started in '49 doing the salmon counts, the red counts in which are the nests in the river. And nobody else could stand to be in a plane where they put the tip down and just circled around as you counted with a little clicker, the reds, to count them. And so he did that for over 40 years. So I had many different interests in water. Bauman: Sure. So when you worked the site in the fisheries area, did you find any significant impact from Hanford, other—on the river or on the fish? Watson: They thought it was going to be temperature, but it wasn't temperature. It was the chromium that they put in to—I think it was to stabilize the equipment that was in there. And that's what it was. And so we ran a bunch of tests on different levels of chromium and what would be toxic and would not be toxic. Bauman: That was the sort of major finding you had. Watson: That was. And the change in temperature was enough that they found that some of the bacteria that affected the fish were more—with the warmer water it was much harder on them. Bauman: So what year was it then? You said that you were expecting your first child. What year was it? Watson: That was '55. Bauman: '55, okay. So I was going to ask you, I know an event that a lot of people were here at the time remember President Kennedy visited in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. I know you weren't working at Hanford Site anymore, but obviously it was something that the people in the community were very interested in, so I wonder if you have any memories of that. Watson: I do. I lived on Butternut Street at the time. We had 50 preschool children on that street. So two of us mothers took our children and headed out to see it. And if you could see the number of cars—and so we thought we were being really clever tying a band on the antenna, on the car radio antenna. Well, so did everybody else. We looked and looked for our car [LAUGHTER] when it was through. But it was a fun time. Bauman: Is there anything, any major events, other dignitaries visiting, or sort of incidents or anything that sort of stands out during your time working there that you remember? Watson: Well, you did meet just about everybody, because there were so few when I was there that they came through looking to see what was being done. So you got to meet them. But those--what really stands out in my mind is how everybody cooperated. It really was a fun way to do it. Bauman: Yeah. I'm going to shift a little bit and ask you a bit more about the community of Richland. You mentioned being involved in the League of Women Voters. And you also served on the city council. I wondered if you could talk about that, about what led you to get involved and what the community of Richland was like in the '50s and '60s. Watson: Well, I said I was interested in League of Women Voters, and the first mayor was very interested in getting it. And one of the things that I did after I was not working out here any longer was I helped the school to establish a program that the principal said I've got children who've had all kinds of help in reading, and they still can't read, and they're smart as can be. And what's happening? So five of us went together and found a program, Slingerlands, and we spent an hour each day with one child, and it's using all the senses and figuring out which sense the child uses to learn to read, and a lot of repetition. And one child I had was dyslexic. But there's all different kinds of reasons for it. We just didn't know. And one of the gals there said—I had been asked if I would serve on the planning commission. And I had been doing this for about five years, and she said, Madge, I think you can make more of a difference there. So I did do that for six years, but in that time, I had always been interested in water, and so I was asked to serve on the state board on water. And I did that for a while. So everything kind of intertwines in what you do. Bauman: So what time period was that then that you served on the planning committee and city council member? Watson: Well, it must have been late '60s, early '70s. And then I was on the city council. I was appointed to the council, and then served a two-year term on it too. And then I decided that was enough meetings. Bauman: That was good? [LAUGHTER] Now was your service on the state water board around the same time then? Watson: Yes. Bauman: One of things, obviously, happening with Richland is it was a government town obviously, when you first moved here, and that changed at some point. I was wondering if you wanted to talk about that at all? Do you have any memories of that or anything that stands out about that? Watson: Before it became--when it was a government town, you couldn't get a house until you had children. And so we were in the George Washington apartments just next to the Uptown there for five years. And then went up to a ranch house. And that was heaven. [LAUGHTER] And then when they sold the houses, we bought it, and after several years, decided we liked the area. But we built a home just in back of Jason Lee School. Bauman: So when the federal government gave you the option to purchase, then, was when you bought the home? Watson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It certainly was a very generous offer. Bauman: Were there any--in the '50s, late '40s into the '50s, you mentioned there wasn't a lot of entertainment. Watson: No. Bauman: Were there any community events? At some point, Atomic Frontier Days started at some point. Any things like that? Watson: Yes, I can remember the parades when the children were just really small that they had those. When you get that many people together, there were the mountaineers. There were all these different groups that did things together on the weekends. So there were activities, but there just weren't that many cars around. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So I wonder if overall you could—what your thoughts were about the years that you worked at Hanford, what it was like as a place to work, your assessment of that. Watson: I really didn't have any--I had grown up on the farm, and we worked on the farm. And all the time I was in college, I was a teaching assistant, because they didn't have any graduate students to do it, so I was doing that in chemistry. And so I don't have a lot to compare it to. But it was a very friendly place, and everybody knew somebody either through work or through where they lived. But there truly wasn't much to do. There was a movie theater, but it wasn't very big. And there weren't many places to eat. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about or a memory that you haven't shared yet that you think would be good to share? Watson: When I was looking through the material that I had in there, what really struck me was how long the friendships have been and how steadfast they have been. And it really--nobody had family here. So we were each other's family, and so you really got to know people in a way that I don't think you do in most places. Bauman: Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing your memories and your experiences. Watson: You’re welcome. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:36:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1948-1955 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Jared Davis Ray Kupi Don Watson Leo Bustad Dr. Berry Dr. John Porter Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madge Watson Description An account of the resource An interview with Madge Watson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07-17-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. FBI Hanford Kennedy Kennewick Mountain N Reactor Quonset hut Quonset huts River Road School Street https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fda0630464646f72621c91608a1dc2b92.png b21137d55e399764c2563418a2147543 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9753b3b5a7233d9657637096b118b84f.mp4 2c59ed8ae69153b41cc1c9bbd360a0dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mae Fite Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Yeah, I think—are we ready to go? Lori Larson: All righty? Franklin: All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Mae Fite on April 5, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mae about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities and/or working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Mae Fite: It’s Mae Fite. M-A-E, F-I-T-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, when and where were you born? Fite: I was born in Linden, Texas in 1946. Franklin: Okay. And when did you first come to the Tri-Cities area? Fite: My parents moved us here the first time in 1948. I don’t know when or how long we stayed. And then my mom moved two of us children back to Texas. And then my dad, evidently, came and then they had another child there. And then in 1950, she moved the three of us children back to Washington. And then in 1951, my dad moved back. And then in 1952, he went to Alaska and worked for a while before he came back. Franklin: Oh! What did he do in Alaska? Fite: I have no idea. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m from Alaska originally. Fite: It was probably construction of some sort, but I have no idea what he did. Franklin: Yeah, there was a lot of building going on after the war. Yeah, that makes sense. Fite: At that point, I was like four or five. Franklin: Sure, all you knew was he went like really far away. Fite: Well, I don’t even remember him being gone. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And when you say came back to Washington, were your parents in Pasco the whole time? Fite: Mm-hm. Yeah, I was in Pasco, yes. Franklin: And Linden, is that in east Texas area? Where is that in Texas? Fite: That would be more, closer to the Arkansas border. Franklin: Texarkana area? There were quite a few families from that area that came up to Pasco area. Fite: They were following someone that came here originally and then they came for work. Franklin: Was that the case with your mother and father? Do you know how they found out about the area? Fite: Well, my mom—my grandmother’s husband is a Daniel. So he was following the Daniels family here. Franklin: Relatives of—Vanis is a relative— Fite: He’s Vanis’ great-uncle. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Fite: Yeah. Franklin: So it was kind of this extended family migration. Fite: Right. One came, says—I think it was William Daniels came and said, there’s work here. I’m assuming that’s what they did; I’m not sure. Because this is all oral history, so it might be a little fuzzy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, as it is, yeah. Fite: Yeah, so my grandmother and her family was here, because it would’ve been my grandmother, her husband and their three children. And then my mom and dad and our family moved. But like I said, my mom didn’t like it here. Franklin: Oh. Fite: [LAUGHTER] So, they moved back to Texas. And then after she had my youngest brother, there was no one there to help her with her kids. So she came back so her mom could help her with us. Franklin: And it was your grandmother that was married to one of the Daniels. Fite: Mm-hm, yeah. Franklin: Okay. What was it about the area that your mom—did she ever tell you why she left and--? Fite: Yeah, there was nothing here. [LAUGHTER] Weeds blowing, tumbleweeds, you know. Texas, at least there was trees. But there was nothing here in the Tri-Cities. Just dirt. She didn’t like it. And she wasn’t the only one that didn’t like it; there was a lot of people as I worked through Hanford, they said their wives came and the dust was blowing, they called it the termination winds? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Fite: And they were out of here, you know? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What do you know about your parents’ lives before they came to work at Hanford? Fite: They were farmers. And Dad also worked in the forest and drove trucks for the forest. So, Mom was a housewife. She didn’t work. She was busy raising children. Franklin: Mm-hm. How many siblings do you have? Fite: Four. There’s four of us. I’m the eldest of the four. Franklin: Eldest of the four, great. You kind of talked about your mom’s initial experience of coming to Hanford. What about your father, did he ever talk about what his initial experiences were like? Fite: He never really did talk about it, because with him working, you know, he was out to support his family. Franklin: Yeah. Where did he work? Fite: When I was growing up, he pretty much worked on all the dams on the Snake River. Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, Bonneville, John Day. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s— Fite: Then he worked one in Wenatchee. Then from there—he was working at Ice Harbor, and he went to work for JA Jones. So he stayed there until he retired. Franklin: Was that when JA Jones had the Hanford contract to do most— Fite: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And what did your father do at all these dams? Fite: He was a carpenter. And when he retired from JA Jones, he was a general foreman for the carpenters’. Franklin: Did your father talk about the work crews that he was on? Do you know if they were segregated or--? Fite: They were all integrated. Franklin: Oh, okay. Great. Let’s see here, da, da, da. Tch, tch, tch. Sorry. I’m trying to formulate my questions for this situation. Oh! Where was the first place that your parents stayed in when they—or that you remember staying in, your family living in when your family arrived? Fite: In east Pasco. Franklin: And what kind of housing was it? Fite: The first home, Mom said they lived in a tiny little trailer, like a little travel trailer. Franklin: Okay. Fite: And then we moved to, in 1950, I think when we moved back, there was a little home there across the street from Morning Star Baptist Church. We lived in there in like a little fourplex. And from there we moved to Parkside Homes. My sister was born in 1953 when we were living in Parkside. Which now you can see the little area over there, they call it the Navy Homes Park over on 4th Street? And then Dad built our home over on Owens in east Pasco, and then that’s where we grew up. Franklin: Do you remember, like, the kind of quality or the construction of the homes? Was it similar to other homes in Pasco, or was it--? I’ve heard that—and our research found that some homes in Pasco didn’t have running water at the time. Fite: Oh, we had all the utilities. Franklin: Okay, okay. Fite: Yeah, so we were fine. Franklin: Okay, good, well, that’s good. Fite: Just dirt road. Franklin: Right. The roads in east Pasco were unpaved at that time. Fite: Right, mm-hmm. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community? What did you do in your spare time? Fite: As a kid, we just played a lot. But as I grew up and I would find part-time jobs babysitting and whatever. So yeah. But my spare time was just reading. I loved to read, so I didn’t do a whole lot of nothing. Franklin: Oh, that’s good. Do you remember any particular community events that stand out to you? Fite: Going to church every Sunday. Franklin: Church every Sunday. Yeah, which church did you attend? Fite: Morning Star Baptist. Franklin: Morning Star. And what role did the church play in the community? Fite: It was our center of everything. Your activities, if you needed information, friends, whatever, the church was center. Our thing at home was if you wanted to go out on Saturday night, you make sure you go, because you’re going to go to church on Sunday. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Always church on Sunday, right? Fite: It was always church on Sunday. Mom wouldn’t allow us to do anything on Sunday if we hadn’t—if we wanted to go do anything, we had to make sure we went to church on Sunday. Franklin: Sounds just like my mom. Fite: Yeah. Franklin: The community of east Pasco was largely, if not completely, African American, right? Fite: Pretty much. At first it wasn’t. It was segregated, because as the blacks moved in, the whites moved out. But where we were living was on Owens. So on Beech there was white families and on Douglas behind us there was white families, and then all over on—north of Lewis was all white until 1971 when they came in with the Urban Renewals. And then as they were removing the blacks out of their homes, they moved over to the north side on Lewis—yeah, Lewis. All the white families moved out. Franklin: Mm. Familiar theme. Were there many families with children or extended families such as grandparents? Fite: All of us had grandparents. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fite: I had one grandmother here with nine grandchildren. All of my mom’s siblings and all of their kids. So it was extended families. If it wasn’t, it was aunt and uncle or something that was there. Franklin: Right, right. Do you recall any family or community events or traditions, including food, that people brought from the places they came from? Fite: I don’t know more than just our families, but it wasn’t anything different than Mom cooked all the time. She was an excellent cook. Franklin: What kind of food did she—did she cook like Southern food, soul food type food? Fite: I don’t think so. Franklin: Oh. Fite: If she did, I didn’t eat it. [LAUGHTER] I don’t remember. She cooked a lot of things different. Franklin: What about, I know Juneteenth is a very important— Fite: That just started recently in the last 30 years I guess. That wasn’t something we did when I was growing up. Franklin: Oh, okay. What about—was Kurtzman Park around when you were growing up? Fite: It developed when I was growing up. Before then, it was just an empty field. Franklin: Right. What was the—did you—what was Kurtzman Park to the community, or what is it? Fite: It was just a park. It wasn’t anything that we did special in the park. I don’t even know where the name Kurtzman came from. When I was growing up, it was just an empty—just another field. Franklin: Mm-hm. Do you remember when the park was put in? Fite: It had to have been in middle school. Franklin: Did you play in the park at all after it had been--? No, nothing too special. Fite: I didn’t, but my brothers and sisters did. Franklin: Oh, your younger brothers and sisters? Yeah. Excuse me. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Fite: I would say so. That just the fact that they was able to work wherever they was working at was fine. Like my mom, she worked in most of the restaurants. But for us, the one thing I remember is that we could not go into the restaurant and sit down and eat. We could go to the fast food places and take our food, but we couldn’t go into the restaurants. Franklin: And this was here, in Pasco? In all the Tri-Cities? Fite: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I imagine not in any of the restaurants in east Pasco. Fite: Well, they didn’t have any restaurants in east Pasco. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Fair enough. Fite: I mean, there was two, but there wasn’t enough room there to sit down and have a family meal. Franklin: Right. And so you weren’t—do you remember any restaurants or experiences like that in particular? Fite: Well, I went to apply for a job at Louberry’s [?] there on 4th and Lewis? Franklin: Mm-hmm? Fite: And the one question the guy asked me was, if a customer spanked me, what would I do? And I said, I would slap him. And he said, well, then you wouldn’t be able to work here. [LAUGHTER] So—I mean, I was being honest with him, because I had never experienced someone to do that to me. Franklin: Right, like, spank you on the behind? Fite: Mm-hmm, yeah. He was flirting, you know. So my answer to him was, if you’re hitting me, I’m hitting back. Franklin: Well, that’s good for you. I mean, one person’s flirting is another person’s harassment. Wow. So you were—was that something that your parents had told you, like, we just don’t go, we just don’t sit down in these restaurants because we can’t? Or how’d you know that? Do you know what I mean? Fite: Well, there was a restaurant there on Lewis and Wehe? I think that’s where it is now, called Wilky’s. So we would get out of school, we would go there, and all the white kids could go inside and get their food, but all of us African Americans, we had to stand in the window and get ours. So there was nothing that you was told that you couldn’t go in, but it was just, that was the way it worked. Franklin: Would they just not serve you if you went inside? Fite: I have no idea. I never did go in. Franklin: That was just like the way it was? Fite: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Fite: I would say pretty much everything was limited as to what you could or could not do. But it wasn’t outwardly spoken; it was more covert. It was just like you couldn’t do this. For instance, there was the Eastside Market that was on the east side. There was no black or any other ethnic groups that was cashiers until later, after ’60-so. Then they finally hired people. But before then, there was no opportunity for working there in the stores. Franklin: Right, so blacks were excluded from employment, even on the east side of town, by white-owned businesses. Could you describe any interactions that you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area that stand out to you? Fite: Such as? Franklin: Oh, positive or negative interactions? Maybe with people in Kennewick or Richland? Fite: Well, Kennewick, no one had any interaction in Kennewick. You could go there and shop, but you couldn’t live in Kennewick. And Richland, the only way you lived in Richland, you had to be working for the Hanford Site. So, Mom and Dad had friends that lived in Richland that worked at Hanford, so they would go and visit with them, but other than that, I don’t know. And if they—I didn’t really travel much with them, when they went out to visit with their friends. I was pretty much a homebody. Franklin: Makes sense. Well, you’re young, right, too. And probably when they went out you had to look over your brothers and sisters, being the oldest? Fite: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yeah. Where did you go to school? Fite: All Pasco. Franklin: Which schools? Fite: Pretty much went to all of the grade schools in Pasco. At the time, middle school was McLoughlin Junior High, and then I graduated from Pasco High and then I attended CBC, got my AA. Franklin: Did segregation or racism affect your education throughout your schooling? Fite: It didn’t affect me for the fact that I got an integrated education. But it affected me because the teachers didn’t encourage us to think about going to college, the advisers didn’t talk about extending to college. But when I got graduated from high school, I had skills to be able to get a job as office worker, so it really didn’t affect me in that sense. But the fact that we couldn’t participate in school activities was sort of sad. Franklin: What do you mean? Fite: Well, the girls couldn’t be cheerleaders. Boys could play sports, but the girls pretty much was limited from being on cheer squad, but we couldn’t be cheerleaders. So it was sort of disappointing in that. Franklin: Yeah. Is that another one of those kind of unwritten rules that you just— Fite: Unwritten, but then they would tell you, no, you can’t participate. Franklin: Oh, wow. Fite: It’s sort of sad. Franklin: That’s really sad. And it was just kind of another unspoken or I guess spoken thing where blacks were encouraged probably to go more into trades and not encouraged for college prep. Fite: That is correct. Franklin: And what made you want to—what made you go to CBC, what made you decide to go to college? Fite: Because that was always my goal. I wanted to go to college. Franklin: That’s great. Who were some of the people that influenced you as a child when you were getting educated in elementary, middle and high school? Fite: No one. Franklin: No one?! Fite: I didn’t have any role models, you know. So it was sort of sad. Franklin: Do you know, what education level did your parents attain? Fite: They pretty much got through starting high school, but didn’t graduate. Franklin: Was education for you important to them? Was that something that— Fite: It was. Franklin: --they had stressed to you? Fite: Mm-hm. Very much so. Franklin: Do you think that was a benefit of being here, versus maybe being back in Texas, or--? Fite: I don’t think it would’ve mattered where we would’ve been raised; I think that was something they wanted us to do, was to get our education. Franklin: And then after you got your AA, where did you—I assume you probably went to work. Fite: I was already working. Franklin: You were? And where were you working? Fite: Hanford. Franklin: Hanford, okay, great. So tell me, what sort of work did you do? Fite: I was a clerk, and for years I always was a secretary for Hanford. So I started in—actually, my anniversary date was yesterday, 4/4 of ’67, I went to work at Hanford. I started out as a temporary file clerk, but I passed my typing test eventually and they pushed me up from file clerk to a expediter clerk, worked for two expediters. And then from there, I moved up—at that time, you didn’t have to apply for the job; if one came up, they just pushed you to that next level. So I went from the clerk to the secretary in employment. And in employment they put me in secretary in the Hanford Project News office, and I worked there for four years. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fite: And then that company was ITT. It didn’t renew its contract. So then I went to work for ARCO in 271-T in the 2-West area. Franklin: Oh, wow. Fite: And I worked there for about three years, because when my youngest son started kindergarten, I talked to my manager that I needed to come into town because I didn’t have a babysitter for them while he was in school. So I needed to be in town, because I was a single parent by this time now; I had gotten a divorce. I came back downtown and then I’m thinking, hmm, I’m taking all these classes in accounting. I need to be a clerk; I don’t need to be a secretary any longer. So I talked to my manager and so I was secretary of accounting. So he says, well, there’s an entry level in payroll; do you want to take that job? I said, well, I need the experience. I’ve got the years, but I don’t have the experience as a clerk. So I took that, and from there I just stayed in clerical. I went form payroll to insurance and I ended up being the pension clerk for Hanford. I did all the pension estimates for all of the companies except Battelle management. But all the unions and non-exempt for Hanford. Franklin: Wow, math—you must be really good with math. Fite: Not really, but— Franklin: Oh! [LAUGHTER] Fite: That’s what I was telling her, I did okay here at WSU until I had to take pre-calc. [LAUGHTER] That was the end of that class. I went, oh, no. But I love math, you know, but, yeah. Franklin: It sounds like you received a lot of support for kind of getting moved up or trying to find a position that matched your interests. Sounds like you at least at times had supportive managers? Fite: I don’t know. It was just interesting how I’d be moved one place to the next. Hired in and then it just worked out really nice. But for a while there, I was the only black secretary that they had at Hanford for the company I was working for. That was interesting. And then, most of the positions I was in, I was the only African American in that position in those offices. Franklin: And did you spend most of your time in the downtown, the 700 Area of Hanford, or were you kind of all around the Site? Fite: It was kind of all around, because where I end up was at the Stevens Center. Franklin: Okay. Fite: So you just move where the companies found the position for us to be stationed and whatever. Franklin: When did you retire from Hanford? Fite: 2006. Franklin: Oh, wow. So you were there for 39 years. Fite: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. That’s impressive. Man, they just don’t make careers like that anymore. Fite: Well, I didn’t go to work to stay there that long. I only was going to stay long enough to work until we paid the hospital bill off from my second son being born. But it ended up, I had a career, so when my divorce came, I just kept working. Franklin: Wow. And you were able to support your family on that. That’s really something. Did you acquire any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Fite: Not really. Franklin: Okay. Fite: I— Franklin: Oh, sorry. Fite: I started volunteering after my youngest son graduated from high school doing income tax returns for the AARP. Franklin: Oh, great. Fite: And I did that until 2000—I think 2000. And then I stopped doing that. My granddaughter graduated from high school and I thought, oh, I started doing that when my grandson graduated from high school and I quit when my granddaughter— [LAUGHTER] Fite: --graduated. Franklin: Wow. I love that program. I had them do my taxes this year. Fite: That was rewarding. Franklin: That’s good. Yeah, it’s a really wonderful program. Fite: Mm-hmm. Franklin: It’s a really nice thing to do. Could you describe a typical work day out on Site? Fite: Ah, it was just a lot of work. Because we started out, it was five eights and then I ended up, it was four tens. But I just stayed busy, you know. There’s a lot of stuff you just have to get done. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors or management? Fite: I got along fine with them. There was a lot of politics in your job, but I didn’t get caught up in that. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? Fite: Fine. I mean, if they didn’t like me, I didn’t know it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Was it ever difficult to often be the only African American in your group or in the— Fite: It didn’t happen until I went to work for Westinghouse, and I worked for [UNKNOWN] and he just had a different management style. I just had to talk to him about, you know, pretty much embarrassing me in front of people. And he pretty much stopped after I talked to him. Franklin: Oh, wow. Very direct, huh? Fite: Hmm? Franklin: You’re very direct. Fite: Yeah. I don’t have time for politics. [LAUGHTER] You know? You want me to work for you, work with me. I don’t come in and—I don’t drink coffee, I didn’t smoke. So I figured if I was giving him eight hours a day for my—I think I should’ve been respected for my—if I did his work, he should respect me in that what I was doing. So if I needed a raise, I went in and said, it’s time for me to get a raise. And I pretty much got them. Franklin: Oh, yeah. I was going to ask you if that worked, but sounds like it did. What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Fite: None. Franklin: None? Fite: Mm-mm. Franklin: Were you based always in Pasco in this time? Fite: No, I lived in Richland. Franklin: Oh, you lived in Richland at this time? Fite: Yeah, I moved to Richland in ’67. And so I pretty much was not in Pasco after that. So I was pretty much in Richland. But raising two boys, that kept me busy, so I didn’t have a lot of interaction with anybody with work. Franklin: Where did you primarily live at in Richland? Fite: On Rossell. I bought a home in Richland. So, before then I rented a couple of little houses. They were always the little prefabs or the precuts. And the home I bought was a precut. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fite: And I sold it in 2015 and moved to Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay, made the trip back. What made you want to move back to Pasco? Fite: I didn’t want to own a home. So I’m looking at—after my parents passed away, and I’m going, oh, that was a lot of work to take care of their property. So I thought about, hmm, I’m going to retire now. I don’t have anyone home but me. Why am I sitting here doing yardwork? So I sold my home. Now I rent a duplex in Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay. Cool. Fite: It’s really nice. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. It’s nice not to have to deal with all that. Fite: Mm-mm. And the kids won’t have to deal with it either. Franklin: That’s really—that’s a lot of forethought, I think. If your kids don’t appreciate that, they should. Fite: Yeah, they do. Franklin: Good. Could you describe the working conditions that you worked in? You worked primarily in an office. Fite: Mm-hmm. They were really nice, yeah. They had the best of whatever they had coming out. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Fite: I don’t think there was any, for me. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Fite: None, because I treated my coworkers just like we did my classmates. You know, talked to them, whatever. If we had a disagreement about something, I tried to work that out. But I didn’t—I never had where I had to have management come and talk to me about something I’ve done that they didn’t like. Franklin: In what ways did the security or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Fite: It didn’t impact it, but it was sort of funny, because when I was working for the Hanford Project News office, we would handle the Hanford Science Center. So they sent me down one day to take one of the displays down and to revise it. Well, the next morning, I got called in. They says, you need to get your Q clearance. As long as the thing was on the wall, it was fine, but the minute we took it down to redo it, then it became Top Secret. So I got my Q clearance after that. So that was the fun part. But I’m going, oh, that was hilarious. But since I didn’t go down there and do it on my own, I was instructed to do that, there was no problem with it. But yeah that was interesting. Franklin: But you needed to get a Top Secret clearance in order to handle the thing that previously had been on the wall. Fite: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: That sounds like Hanford. Fite: [LAUGHTER] It was interesting, you know. And then eventually we didn’t need clearances any longer. Franklin: That is a really good story of the security and secrecy. Fite: Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. Franklin: How did you feel at the time about working for a site, for a large organization that was involved in the development of nuclear weapons? Fite: It was fine, because I never did really get involved with any of that. I mean, one of my jobs I had to do as a secretary was keep track of all the precious metals that they use out there at Hanford. And so that was interesting. But other than that, I really didn’t ever get too involved with what they were doing with the Site. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Fite: That they would ever get it cleaned up. [LAUGHTER] Which is never going to happen. Franklin: I really like that answer. Fite: You know, if you think about it, everything has got to be a half-life, so they’ll be out there forever doing that. Franklin: Yeah. Yes, they will. Especially if the—well, I won’t go there. What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford in the Manhattan Project? Did you learn about— Fite: Nope. Franklin: No? Have you learned about them since you started work there, have you looked into that history at all, what the Manhattan workers did, the building of Hanford? Fite: No, no, I haven’t. Franklin: Okay. So moving on to kind of like civil rights activities, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Fite: It didn’t happen until ’67, I think it was. They started having some of the different problems, you know, nationwide that came here, but I didn’t get involved in any of that. I could see what’s going on, and you could see some of the differences where you could go in the stores and see different people that had been hired so you see that that did bring some change here. We could live where we wanted after a while. So it was a different thing. But that was nationwide; it wasn’t just in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Sure, sure. So you would’ve graduated in— Fite: ’64. Franklin: ’64, and was that from Pasco High? Fite: Mm-hmm! Franklin: Were there any episodes of like racial strife or conflict there, or was that after your--? Fite: That was afterwards, if there was any there, yeah. I mean, our biggest thing was having the different schools competing for the homecoming and stuff like that. But that didn’t have anything to do with race; that was just school competitions. Franklin: But there was always, though, that kind of unspoken thing, like maybe you wouldn’t have felt totally comfortable in restaurants in other cities or—you know, because you had talked a little bit about some of that unspoken segregation that was existing at that time. But that didn’t affect the education in any--? Fite: No, because school was integrated, so we didn’t get involved in any of that. I mean, it was just the fact that, like I said, there was things we couldn’t do in school, but that didn’t have anything to do with how we sit in the classroom or anything like that, or ride the bus. It was always, find a seat and sit down. Franklin: Yeah. What kinds of actions were being taken to address civil rights issues in the Tri-Cities? Fite: None that I knew of. I wasn’t participating in any of that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Had you heard about the Hazel Scott case in 1950? Where she was refused service—okay. How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Fite: Nothing that I know of. I mean, I don’t think it ever really made an impact on what we were doing as far as work was concerned. Franklin: Did you see, over your time at Hanford, did you see a change in the type of positions that African Americans were being hired into, or did you start to see greater representation of African Americans or minorities in general at Hanford? Fite: I just worked in that one section of payroll, so I didn’t really see a lot of stuff going on in the larger scale of Hanford. Franklin: What about in your section? Fite: No. I didn’t see any difference there, because there was black managers and the individual employees that had their degrees so they had their jobs. So I was non-degreed, so I wasn’t involved in management at that point. Franklin: Did you eventually—you mentioned you went here for a time, did you end up finishing your degree? Fite: I didn’t. Franklin: Oh, okay. You just took— Fite: I got to pre-calc and that was the end of that. [LAUGHTER] I got most of my basic classes taken care of, so I didn’t ever go off into my electives, because of the calc to do that. I was going for my finance degree. Franklin: Ah, I see. What did you—so you said you quit Hanford in 2006. What did you do afterwards? Fite: Retired! Franklin: Retired, just— Fite: [LAUGHTER] That’s what you do. You just go and do other things, yeah. I didn’t go back to work. Franklin: Right, just kind of keeping busy. Did you travel that much—did you travel much outside the Tri-Cities. Fite: I did. Franklin: Yeah? Fite: Well, yes, my sons and I—because we didn’t have a lot of money, we did an awful lot of day trips. And then whenever I could, I would go take them to Disneyland and different things like that. And then I would allow to go to classes in different places by themselves so their mom didn’t have to be there with them. Franklin: How were your experiences in other places different from the Tri-Cities? Fite: No. Franklin: Okay. Fite: I never run into where I was not allowed service at all. Franklin: Sure. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Fite: Nothing. Franklin: Nothing? [LAUGHTER] Fite: I can’t think of anything I think I’d want to pass on to someone about it. Franklin: Okay. Did you ever feel—just kind of knowing what was being made out there, and maybe about the waste—did you ever feel anxious or scared or nervous about Hanford, you know, about the—all the stuff that was going—all the secrecy and all of that? Fite: Uh-unh, because it wasn’t like that was something that was just talked about. I mean, things that now I worry about, it’s like they’re saying downwinders. They released different things out in the atmosphere and then let us know about it. So now we’re having health issues and we’re saying, okay, how do we get treated for these or that part of some of this stuff that they did back then. Because they didn’t consider the population. Franklin: Hmm. Is there anything else that you would like to mention related to migration, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Fite: Nothing that I know of impacted me at all. Larson: Did you have any, as a single mom, in raising your boys in Richland, did you ever have any concerns or issues with their schooling? Fite: No. Larson: No? Fite: No, they were just happy little boys that got along with everybody. School was good for them, you know, they went through all the schools in Richland. So they just had a really good education and they was able to do whatever they wanted to do in school. There was nothing they came home and said, Mom, they won’t let me do this. They didn’t receive some of the same thing that I experienced. Franklin: They didn’t receive some of the things that you experienced? Fite: Mm-mm. Franklin: Was the situation in the kind of unspoken segregation that you had grown up in, was that different? When you moved to Richland, was it different in Richland? Did you still experience that kind of thing? Fite: We still experienced it, because when I moved into my home, the black cat—stray—and the neighbor guy brought it over and threw it in my yard. And I thought, that isn’t my cat. Why did you do that? And then they would have the welcome neighbors. I never received that. So it was unspoken there, too, when I first moved there. But by the time I left, they were all really nice neighbors. Because I didn’t let that bother me. I said, okay, you don’t want to be a neighbor with me, fine. [LAUGHTER] Fite: But I didn’t create any problems with the neighbors, and so then they didn’t have a problem with me. But they all looked out after my boys after I knew about it. They said, yeah—because they were latchkey kids. So they watched out for them for me. Franklin: Oh, that’s sweet. Well, Mae, unless you have anything else you want to say? Thank you for the interview. Fite: Well, thank you for inviting me. Franklin: Okay. Awesome. All right. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview JA Jones Construction Hanford Project News ITT ARCO 271-T Building 200-West Area Westinghouse Hanford Science Center Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1967-2006 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mae Fite Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Migration Bonneville Dam (Or. And Wash.) Snake River (Wyo.-Wash.) Segregation School integration Civil rights Description An account of the resource Mae Fite moved to Pasco, Washington in 1950 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1967-2009. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/05/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b9686e50c88c457899c6d7831221e3f.JPG d2cbc16ee310bc1c491a5128b063e47a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89eaaa9583a9445b5b1ec0f7bb88fbe0.mp4 f972553908e020e5deaacbd5c300a90a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn Devine Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Em DeVine on May 21, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Em about her experiences growing up in Richland and working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Em DeVine: M-A-R-I-L-Y-N. D-E-capital-V-I-N-E. Franklin: Great, thank you. And you prefer to go by Em? DeVine: I prefer Em. Franklin: Okay. DeVine: Although most people down here know me as Marilyn, because I didn’t change it until many years later, after I had left. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. So tell me how your family came to the area to work at the Hanford Site. DeVine: Well, we didn’t come from far. We’re from Ellensburg, Washington. Franklin: Oh, okay. DeVine: My dad was a fireman there. And I know nothing about how he heard about the Project or anything like that. But he came to work at Hanford in 1943 and then the family didn’t move—he came early. Perhaps July or June. But the family didn’t move until December 6th of [19]43. And the reason I know that is because it was my brother’s 10th birthday. That’s the only reason I know the date that we moved. We lived in a farmhouse that of course had to be abandoned by the owners. It was ten miles from Hanford; it was three miles beyond White Bluffs. So we were in the country. And I’m so sorry I didn’t ever ask my dad why—how we happened to have the privilege of being there. Franklin: Maybe because they wanted him to be close, close to the fire station in case there was— DeVine: Possibly. Franklin: --an emergency. DeVine: Right, that’s certainly plausible. Franklin: Because I know that some patrolmen were allowed to live in some of the old houses, because they wanted them close. And how old were you when the family moved down? DeVine: I was nine. Franklin: You were nine, okay. DeVine: Yes, I had just turned nine the month before. Franklin: So your father leaves some time in the middle of 1943. And did he tell you why he was coming down to Hanford? DeVine: No, I don’t remember knowing why he was gone. They must’ve told us he was working someplace else. Franklin: What were your first impressions of the Hanford Site when you moved here? DeVine: Oh, of our house? Franklin: Yeah, of the whole thing. DeVine: And that area? Well, it was definitely old and dead and dry. The house was old and not a very—well, it wasn’t very good. We didn’t have running water. We had one electric light. We had a wood stove, of course. The bosses, the rulers of the Project, they had people build us a water barrel. It was up on stilts, and they would bring water every week. That was our water supply, except that it was a farm house and there was a barn a little bit down a hill. I can remember my brother and I loading up pots of water from that well and taking them in our Little Red Rider wagon to the house, and that was what we bathed in. Franklin: Oh, wow. DeVine: We drank and cooked with the other water, yeah. Franklin: Right. Did the house in Ellensburg have more modern— DeVine: Oh, my, yes. Yeah, it had a telephone, running water, lights in every room. It was very different situation. Actually, there were four kids. I had an older sister. She was eleven at that time, and my younger brother was probably about four, three or four, years old. The house had a kitchen, of course, and the dining room, and what was probably called a parlor, and then a living room, and one bedroom. But it had a covered, or a screened-in sunporch, I suppose it would’ve been. Franklin: This is the house here out at Hanford? DeVine: That’s the house at White Bluffs, right. So we three older kids had beds in that room. And then my baby brother had a crib in my parents’ room. It was—well, my mother had chickens. I think she had five chickens. And we had a dog that we had taken with us. While we were there, we bought two young goats, which were an awful lot of fun. Now my sister, Charlene, didn’t have a good teacher. The school system was not great. It wasn’t well-developed at that time. So she and my younger brother, because our mother was sickly quite a bit at the time, they moved back to Ellensburg with relatives. So it was just Terry and me for most of the time that we were there. It was a wonderful place to live, I thought. I mean, for kids that age, exploring and—it was just a really, really great opportunity, experience. Franklin: Were you near any other houses? DeVine: No! No, there was a number of fields between us and the houses that were along the Columbia River. They looked big and nice. They were painted white and all that stuff. It was really nice. Franklin: Were there any crops left on the farm? DeVine: No, just—well, actually, there probably was wheat or hay. But I didn’t really recognize it as such. But looking back, thinking back, there probably was some. But it was more just like weeds. Yeah. Franklin: What can you tell me about the school system out at Hanford during the war? DeVine: Well, the grade school kids went to what had been Hanford High School. It was a two-story brick, or block, construction. It’s still there. The high school kids were bussed into Richland, here into Richland. We went on double shifts. We had the morning shift, so that meant, I think, school was like from 6:00 to 11:00. Something like that, maybe 7:00 to 12:00. Very crowded rooms, although we all had desks. Because our mother was sickly, my older sister, my sister and the baby went back to Elle—I said that already. Sorry. Franklin: Oh, sorry, go ahead. DeVine: You go ahead. Franklin: Okay. DeVine: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What did you do for leisure time when you were out there in this farmhouse? DeVine: Oh, gosh! We explored. Not too far from our house, there was a gravel pit. And one of the things that I especially remember is that my brother would stand up at the top, and I would go down below into the gravel pit. He would throw rocks down, and we would see if we could break them open to see if there was something interesting inside. We knew about thunder—hmm, now I have to think, the rocks that have something really—thunder eggs. I don’t think we found anything precious. If we thought it was, we would take it to our mom and have her look at it. That summer, spring after we were—before we had to leave, there was a meadowlark nest not too far out in one of the fields. That was fun to go watch the babies grow, and then they flew off. And as I recall—I could be wrong—as I recall, I was there when they took off, and each of the four birds went in a separate direction. Like, as if it had been planned or scripted, you know. I don’t know about that. Sometimes we would go down to the river and wade and catch minnows and take them home in jars. That was pretty much what we did. Franklin: Did you go like shopping with your father or down to the construction camp or into the town of Richland at all? DeVine: Not to Richland, no. We went into Hanford; there was a doctor’s office there. I was having health problems, too, so we would go there for odds and ends of things. Yeah. And my mother was hospitalized there for a short—a few weeks. And, no, I never did see the inside of any of the—well, let me take that back, because different famous groups came through to entertain as part of the war effort. I remember Truth or Consequences came, and then there were some others. We went in to those events. Franklin: So you’re kind of a local—like, I guess almost as local as you could get, coming down here, except for the people that had been displaced. DeVine: Right. Franklin: But you must’ve went to school with kids from all over the US, right? DeVine: Yes, yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that, about being in this community where everyone was brand new. DeVine: Yes. There was a huge campground—trailer park, and I met one of the girls there was Louanna Ivers. She and I were friends up until she passed away just a year or so ago. Franklin: Oh, wow. DeVine: Yeah. Which was fun. It was fun to have someone that went all the way from fourth grade through. Franklin: Where was she from? DeVine: Mm, Oklahoma somewhere? I don’t know exactly. But yeah. Everybody else that we knew was from someplace else: Utah, the South, the deep South. Yeah. Franklin: Did you know anything about the communities that had been there before the Manhattan Project? Did you ever run into anybody who had been displaced from the area? DeVine: No, not that I know of. Franklin: Okay. DeVine: I surely must’ve. I know that I heard somewhere along the line. Some of the people went to school to learn what they needed to do so that they could move back and work. But they weren’t allowed into their old homes, into their old homes out there anyway. Franklin: Did you live near any of the Hanford facilities? Or did you watch any of them go up? DeVine: Actually, the reason we had to leave in June of 1944 was because they were building B Reactor. We couldn’t see anything except that this concrete thing was going up. But we had to leave anyway, and our house wasn’t finished in Richland. So we had to go to for a few months, and then I think we came from Sunnyside in August to a prefab. Yeah. That was kind of interesting, too. We lived about a block from the stockyard, which was rather odorous. [LAUGHTER] Given the wrong wind direction. [LAUGHTER] But, gosh, we had a real house. It was a real kitchen, toilets, running water, electricity— Franklin: This the house in Richland? DeVine: No, the house in Sunnyside. Franklin: Oh, this is Sunnyside. DeVine: Right. So then when we moved to Richland in August, I think, of ’44, we were in a little prefab. And I asked—I wish I had remembered to ask my dad—I think I said this before—why we had gotten to live north of White Bluffs, because we didn’t have a telephone. There wouldn’t have been a way for them to contact him. That I can think of. Of course, my memory’s fuzzy at this point. Yeah. In Richland we had a prefab on the corner of Swift and Wright. Franklin: How many buildings—bedrooms, sorry. DeVine: Three. Franklin: Three-bedroom prefab? DeVine: Yeah. And I asked my dad not that many years ago why we had a prefab when there were bigger houses. I said, was it because of the money, the rent? And he said, probably. [LAUGHTER] He probably didn’t really remember either; he was pretty old by that time. But that was the last street west at that point, and that’s why my mother chose it. She did not like being hemmed in. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah, because at that time it was just open—everything was just fields and-- DeVine: It was open. We played all the way to the Yakima River. And there was an old car body chassis out there. And of course there were rattlesnakes and bull snakes and scorpions. But nobody that I know ever got hurt with any of those things, yeah. It was a good place to live. Franklin: How did the prefab compare to other houses you had lived in? Was there anything unique about it? DeVine: [LAGUHTER] Well they were called cracker boxes. You may have heard that. Because of their shape; they were just a big square put on a platform that was about three feet on over side smaller, so that you had a place to play in—[LAUGHTER] I guess a place to play in the shade. Franklin: And they had the flat roofs then. DeVine: And they had a flat roof, yes. They had a swamp air conditioner in one window. Franklin: Swamp cooler? DeVine: When the sand blew, it came in the house. It was very dusty anytime we had any kind of a wind storm. We were lucky. We had nine peach trees. We were planted right in the middle of a peach orchard. My dad, being a farmer at heart, knew exactly how to take care of those trees. He had the best peaches in the city, and he would have contracted each year with a store to sell the peaches to them. Every year we had a big wind storm that blew most of the peaches off. So, yeah, that was very—a sad situation for him, especially. Because it sort of made him feel like nothing he did went right. You know what I mean? Franklin: Oh. Yeah, yeah. DeVine: Yeah. Franklin: I know exactly what you mean. DeVine: And we didn’t have grass; we didn’t have paved streets, no sidewalks. We had irrigation water, one irrigation hose in the yard, which was different than our house water. Franklin: And from when you moved in until ’58, they—did your parents stay in that—did you stay in that home the whole time? DeVine: No. Franklin: Okay. DeVine: We moved in ’48. We moved out to a ranch house, and it, again, was on the last street west, on Cottonwood. That was before Cottonwood Loop was built. So, once again, we were out as close to the open as we could be. And that made us all very happy. It was nice. It was four bedrooms. We fit in a little bit better. I think I was going into high school at that point. My sister, she lived with us for two years before she graduated and went to college. And then my older brother and I graduated in ’52. My younger brother graduated in ’57. So we’re all Richland Bombers. Although the high school was called Columbia High School at that point. Franklin: Yeah, Col High. DeVine: We consider ourselves—yeah. Franklin: It’s always interesting that it was Richland High and then became Columbia and is now Richland High again. DeVine: Right, right. Franklin: So you were in Richland—you moved into the house on Wright in ’44. DeVine: Correct. Franklin: So you were in Richland when the war ended. DeVine: Yes. Franklin: What do you remember about—I’d like to ask you about two events. The first would be the dropping of the bomb. What do you remember about that, that day, that time? DeVine: I remember that there was jubilation and people were saying, the war is over, the war is over. I don’t know why we had the car home that day; maybe our dad was—he worked shiftwork, so maybe he was sleeping. Anyway, the four of us kids got on the hood of the car with American flags and my mother drove us all around through town, yelling and celebrating that the war was over. It was later, I think, that I realized that the Hanford Project had had such a pivotal response to that. Franklin: Hmm. And that’s also a time when a lot of people— DeVine: Contribution to that. Franklin: Contribution, right. That’s also a time when a lot of people found out what was being done, even a lot of the workers. DeVine: Exactly. Franklin: Do you remember your parents talking about that moment when they realized what they had— DeVine: No. I don’t remember, except that I know my uncle, my mother’s brother, was in the war. And he went around—supposedly went around yelling, my brother-in-law did that! My brother-in-law did that! [LAUGHTER] And I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s the story that was passed on to us. So it was a wonderful time. It had been such a fearful time for us. When we lived in Ellensburg, we had—the college had been taken over by the Army. We had war bonds to buy; we had parties and weekends and people coming to town to try to get people to spend more on war bonds. And you could buy victory stamps, and when you got your book full of stamps, then you could buy a bond. And my brother and I sang over the radio—it was a really big thing, and there were airplanes flying over. There was a tank in a parade. So there was a lot of fear. We knew that we could be bombed, or we were led to believe that we could be bombed. We practiced air raids by ducking under our desk, which is pretty ridiculous. All of the houses had cans of sand in case of fire. All of the houses had blackout curtains for nighttime. So there was a lot of fear. But also a lot of joy in our lives. You know, I think our parents and our relatives did a really good job of trying to neutralize that fear. Franklin: Did you have a victory garden as well? DeVine: We did, yes! My dad, being a frustrated farmer, he had a big garden in our yard there. But he also had what we had a victory garden at my great-grandparents’ home. So he had two big gardens going on. Franklin: Richland, for all this time that you were living—or until 1958, was a government town. DeVine: Yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could—what you remember about that era in respect to that peculiar nature of there being really no private property in Richland. DeVine: I don’t think we knew the difference. Franklin: What kinds of things was the government responsible for in terms of people’s housing? DeVine: Well, they chose the designs. [LAUGHTER] They chose the colors. They chose what would be where. They did not dictate anything about landscaping or anything like that, that I know of. It just seemed like a normal town, really. Except that we didn’t have the streets and those kinds of things. But that didn’t really affect us. And then when we did get pavement downtown, when we’d go to a show on Saturday for a dime, we would go barefoot and we would stand in the shade of a building and then we would run as fast as we could across the pavement to the next shade. Because the pavement was so hot—blacktop pavement—was so hot on our feet. But it just—well, I remember one thing, too, that we had very long lines at the post office and they probably had long lines at the bank, although I don’t really remember going to the bank. I remember going to the post office. Franklin: The town had a pretty active bus system. DeVine: Yes, they did! And it was free. Franklin: Yeah. DeVine: Later. All the workers could ride the bus to work. And in fact, many years later, I did that when I was working at 300 Area. I rode the bus a lot of the time. Not all the time, but a lot of the time, yeah. Franklin: What schools did you go to? DeVine: Well, we started out at Sacagawea because Marcus Whitman hadn’t been completed by that time. But that was only until maybe Christmas break. Then we went to Marcus Whitman. And then, of course—there was no junior high at that time, so then we went straight to Columbia High School from eighth grade. So it was a four-year high school. Franklin: And what year did you graduate? DeVine: ’52. Franklin: ’52, okay! DeVine: Yes. Franklin: And then you went to—you being working out on Site, shortly afterward? DeVine: Yes! I was 18. So I had to have a birth certificate to prove that I really was. I worked at 300 Area as a lab assistant. What we did was process sheep pee to—it was just for a local control of the nuclear activity in the animals. I don’t even, to tell you the truth, know what they were looking for. We just were told what to do and we did it. I loved it. Franklin: Yeah, why? DeVine: I like anything science or anything medical. A number of years later, I came back. I had married, moved, had children, came back. And then I got a job as a chemical analyst. And, oh my goodness, that was such a good job. I really loved it. It was important. It was also in 300 Area. Then our little unit ran out of money, and I was the last hire, so I had to go to work at B, in B Reactor for six months until the new budget was passed. Franklin: What did you do out at B Reactor? DeVine: I swear to goodness, I do not know. I know we were processing samples. I don’t know what they were looking for, I don’t know where the samples came from, anything about it. Except that when I went on the tour of the B Reactor, I thought, oh yeah! This is—I do remember it. So I don’t know very much about that. It only took about six months to be out there. And then I remarried and got pregnant and moved to Alaska. Franklin: Okay. DeVine: So that kind of— Franklin: So you worked out on the Site—for how long total did you work out there for? DeVine: Oh, total, oh gosh. Not very long, actually. Maybe five years was all. I really hated leaving Richland, because for one thing, I really enjoyed the work. And I loved the people that I worked with. And it was important work. So—but I left, because I had to. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What were the most challenging or rewarding aspects of your work out at Hanford? DeVine: Well, the rewarding part, especially when I was a chemical analyst, was knowing that it was so important for our safety, locally. But I think it was an international safety, as well. All we were permitted to say was radiochemical analysis of fission products. That’s how secret it was. But we did know, because they thought it was important for us to know, what we were doing so we would be especially careful, and especially precise. I guess the hard part would’ve been being in a closed system for the entire work day. The challenge was just doing a good job, you know? It was just a wonderful job. Harvey Tenney was our chemist, and then they went on up from there. Franklin: Did you have to wear any type of special protective clothing or equipment to handle— DeVine: Yes. Well, we wore lab coats. And of course gloves and safety glasses. We did not wear the masks. We didn’t have our hands in places where the radioactivity was so great that we had to wear the big gloves. These were just medical nursing gloves. Franklin: What about radiation monitoring? Were you monitored at all? DeVine: Oh, yes, absolutely. We wore a badge and on the badge was some sort of thing that could detect radiation. We checked our hands before we left work, and then we turned in our badges once a month to be read. At one point, I did get what’s called crapped up when I was working out at B Reactor. It was interesting. At one point I had to take off my dress and wash it. And of course I had a lab coat to put on. They washed it. And then I wore it home, of course. And another time, they were going to check my house, but I hadn’t taken anything home. If I had, I would’ve been fired right then. But I hadn’t taken anything home. So it was fine. Franklin: Where did you—did you live after you graduated and you started working on Site? Did you still live with your family? DeVine: I lived with my parents for a while, and then when I came back, I had three children, so I bought a prefab, a little three-bedroom, added another bedroom and remodeled the bathroom. It was on the corner of Hoffman and Smith. So I was on another corner, yeah. Franklin: Okay. I know that area pretty well. It’s kind of over by where I live. Could you describe a typical work day as a chemical analysis— DeVine: As a chemical analyst? Franklin: In the lab? DeVine: Well, yes, we would go and show our badges to get through the gate, go into the building, 325, I think it was. And put on our white shoes and our lab coat. Go into an airlock, close the door behind us, and then we could go into the actual lab. I can’t really give much about that, except that we prepared samples and then they were taken out to be radiated. And then we would get them back a few days later and process them again to see what the radioactive content had been. And I have no idea of any of the finished information, of the ending information. Yeah. Franklin: Right, yeah, that would’ve been passed up the chain. DeVine: No! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history, such as plants starting up--? DeVine: No, I don’t really remember anything like that. Atomic Frontier Days was the big celebration of the year in the summer. A big parade and all that. And the sports activities were an important thing. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about the Atomic Frontier Days. What kinds of themes were there and what kind of activities were common in those celebrations? DeVine: Well, we had a parade, like I mentioned. And we had a Miss Tri-Cities. Hmm. I’m sure we had baseball games that were connected with it. Speakers, politicians would come and speak. I don’t remember any famous entertainers coming like they did at Hanford during the wartime. But—oh, one thing that I thought was fun. We had a swimming pool, Richland, the town of Richland had a swimming pool down by the Columbia River. And I thought it was really a huge pool and it may not have been. But there were so many people here that you could only swim for an hour, and then you had to get out and stand in line again for another hour to try to get in again. That made an impression on me [LAUGHTER] because I just had never heard of such a thing before. There wasn’t enough space for everybody to swim at the same time. Franklin: Yeah, wow. DeVine: They since filled that in and built another one up at Richland High School. Franklin: Yup. Yeah, the George Prout pool. DeVine: Yes. Franklin: Were you here when President Kennedy visited? DeVine: Yes, I was! Franklin: Did you go out to see him? DeVine: I did not. Franklin: Oh, okay. DeVine: My mother went. She was sick with cancer at the time, and she felt like she had touched him when he walked by. Whether or not she actually did, I don’t know. But it suited her to think that she had actually touched him. It was a very big thing, that visit was a very big thing around here. Yeah. I’ve seen pictures of it. But I didn’t—and I knew it was going on. But I don’t know why I didn’t go. I might’ve been at work. I don’t know what day of the week it was or anything. Franklin: Could you describe the ways in which security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? DeVine: Well, we always felt real safe. [LAUGHTER] It’s not like life today. It wasn’t a big deal; we just had our badge, and we turned them in each month and got a different one. So probably we rotated. That’s the only thing I can figure. They wouldn’t have been able to do all the badges, like, for instance, over the weekend or something. Because that job in 300 Area was just straight Monday through Friday, 6:15 to 2:00-something. Yeah. So it wasn’t a big deal. Franklin: What about the secrecy aspect? Did that ever impact your daily life or your friendships or relationships with anyone? DeVine: In a way, it probably did. You know, we had the signs: we will bury you; Khrushchev saying, we will bury you. And loose lips sink ships. And how important security was. Now, when I first got that job—maybe I shouldn’t say this, but when I first got that job as a lab assistant, I was telling a friend, a neighbor, about it. And she thought I went too far. Franklin: Oh. Like you had said too much about what you were doing? DeVine: What I was doing, right. Franklin: Oh. DeVine: She asked me, thermal heat or—? [LAUGHTER] And I said, oh, yeah—no. So, her sister, I guess, was the one that told me that she thought I’d said too much. Franklin: Oh, wow. So there was like kind of community policing in that regard. DeVine: There was, yes. Franklin: Do you remember—I’d heard stories that there were FBI agents that would kind of walk down the street or go to people’s houses to interview people about— DeVine: I think we were aware of that, yes. Yeah. Interesting. Franklin: Yeah, isn’t it? It’s kind of—it’s strange. When you were in school, did you have to do the duck-and-cover drills, civil defense drills? Was that a concern? DeVine: No, I don’t—I may be wrong. But I was so impressed with the ones that we had in Ellensburg, that anything else probably wouldn’t have been important enough to even think about. Franklin: Knowing what was being made at Hanford, and knowing the geopolitical situation—you mentioned the ‘we will bury you’ signs—and knowing that Hanford played a large role in the development of atomic weapons, did you ever feel like you were on the frontlines, or like the Hanford community might be a target in case of an eruption of hostilities? DeVine: You know, I think probably a lot of people did. I don’t remember feeling that. Now, I may have. That’s been a long time ago and a lot of things have happened in my life since then. Maybe that’s why is not a big memory. But I don’t think that I—there’s always fear of war and terrorism and stuff like that. But I don’t think it affected my life significantly at all. Franklin: How long did your father work out on Site until? DeVine: Well, he started in ’43, and then he would’ve retired probably when he was 60 or 65. He retired as a fireman there. Franklin: Oh, okay. DeVine: And I don’t—I was gone. I don’t know what year it was. Franklin: Did he stay in Richland his whole life? DeVine: He did, he did. They moved away for a little—five years or something. Then they lived up in Chelan for a while, on Lake Chelan, in Manson. But then he came back and lived here until he died. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? DeVine: Well, it was a unique situation, certainly. Many of us have stayed in touch with people. Part of that is the result of a thing we call—it’s like a daily newsletter, we call it The Sandstorm. So that we know what’s going on among our friends. They talk a lot about no other town ever being like this. I don’t buy that, myself. I think there were a lot of safe towns, unique towns. But it was interesting. We didn’t really know the difference, I don’t think, at that time. I mean, things were safe. You could walk home any time of the day or night. Neighbors played in the streets, you know? Things like that. But I think that happened in a lot of towns. But we, because we were here, and maybe because we came from so many different places in the United States, we saw it as being very unique. And I don’t know. Franklin: Certainly, until ’58, you had to have a job at Hanford or be working— DeVine: Correct. Franklin: --to live in Richland. DeVine: Right. Franklin: So everyone had a job. DeVine: And many of them were, like, the stores. You could be an employee in the stores and things like that. You didn’t have to have a job on the reservation. Franklin: Right. But even those stores all had to have contracts with the Atomic Energy Commission— DeVine: Right, right. Franklin: --to operate the store. I think, maybe, that’s where a lot of people feel the community is unique, certainly because most towns didn’t have 100% employment and were owned by the government. DeVine: That’s true. That’s true. Franklin: I mean, there was no private—there was private property, but there was no—all the land and everything was— DeVine: Right, right. Franklin: It certainly is very interesting. DeVine: Yes, it is. Franklin: In how we think about small town America. DeVine: Right. And I don’t even know what small-town America is like, anymore. I think it’s changed so much since I was a youngster. Franklin: I wanted to ask you, when you moved back to Richland in 2000—how had the Tri-Cities changed from when you had left to when you came back? DeVine: The most staggering thing was the growth. The busy streets, the highways going in. Just the stores, traffic, all the time. It was—that was the thing that struck me the most. Franklin: Well, Em, thank you so much for—I guess I’ll, last point, is there anything else you wanted to say in regards to— DeVine: I can’t— Franklin: Your life in Richland? DeVine: Nothing significant comes to mind. I’m sorry. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, it’s fine. I just didn’t want to end without giving you the chance to—if there was something that you had thought of. DeVine: Right. Well, there’s lots of things, but not important enough to— Franklin: Well, I don’t know about that. What comes to mind? DeVine: I guess all high schools have this rah-rah-rah mentality. And we did, perhaps in the extreme. Because we had come from all over, there was just a different kind of closeness, maybe. And inclusion, they would call it now. [LAUGHTER] I don’t think we even had that word back then, as far as people are concerned. Yeah. Franklin: Because everyone—that’s another thing, actually, I wanted to ask. So you had family that was close by. DeVine: Yes. Franklin: Extended family. But many others didn’t. DeVine: Oh! Franklin: Do you think that led—how do you think that impacted people? Is that maybe what led to some of that inclusion? DeVine: Oh, I think it was so hard on so many of those families to be far away form any relatives at all. And yes, I think you’re right, that that did have something to being neighborly and being inclusive in our schools, and really gelling as a community. It must’ve been absolutely horrible. Now, my mother was raised, born and raised in the Ellensburg, Kittitas Valley, as was my dad. And she called these hills, those bald-headed hills. I mean, she really, really did not like the topography. [LAUGHTER] The fauna. Franklin: Right, she must’ve missed the trees and— DeVine: Oh, my gosh, it was terrible. But our neighbor from Kansas called them mountains. [LAUGHTER] You know? So there was just a different perspective for everybody that came here, and what was great and what was terrible. But I do think that having people come, and some of them maybe never seeing their relatives again. I don’t know about that. But it must’ve been just— When I drive through the countryside now and I see these farm houses, I think back to the days when women were out on their own—families, with their husband and whatever children—all by themselves. And I think about that every time I go by these buildings that are somewhat isolated, still. But they have cars, they have phones, they have TV, you know, so they can get around and they can see what’s going on in the world. We had no idea what was going on in the rest of the world, except the war. Yeah. Oh! President Harry Truman came and visited and talked. Franklin: Oh. DeVine: And the Richland High School band marched in a parade for him. That’s the closest I ever got to a president. Franklin: Do you remember what year that was? DeVine: Gosh. Well, I was in high school, so it had to have been ’49 or ’50 would be my guess. Franklin: So during the second term. DeVine: Yeah, ’49 or ’50. Franklin: That brings me to another question. So after the war ended, it looked like Hanford might shut down for a while. DeVine: Yes! Franklin: And I’m sure some people were probably making plans to move or leave or figure out—do you remember—did your family have any such plans or— DeVine: I think there was quite a bit of turmoil for a lot of people in that regard. But then they just kept finding things to do and finding things to do. There was a lot of—I think there were a lot of families that left, fearing that it would shut down, and went and found jobs other places. But a lot of us stuck around, just hung in there. Franklin: And there was a new boom in the late ‘40s, early ‘50s when they built K East and K West and some of the other reactors. How did that impact Richland, and do you remember much about that? DeVine: I have no idea, except that people came in. I’m still astonished by how many houses are being built here. Where are the people coming from? Who are these people? Why are they coming here? [LAUGHTER] You know? Franklin: Back then or right now? DeVine: Now. And I probably thought the same thing then. Why are all these people here? Franklin: Well, I’ll tell you, as someone who’s trying to buy a house right now, it’s a tight market and everything’s getting snapped up. Yeah, I wonder that, too. But our economy must be good. Housing’s tight. DeVine: Yeah, it’s very interesting to watch it. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m trying to buy a house, too. I need a bigger house. I bought a small house just for me. Turn that off. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:49:52 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marilyn DeVine Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Marilyn (Em) DeVine spent part of her childhood in White Bluffs, living in an old farmhouse during the Manhattan Project. Her father was a patrolman and had to be stationed on the site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/21/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff3da4d16bba583704caea6d400bb98ce.mp4 cbd5b1985472081504ab0215ba4f5c1a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F57cb3e60dc53182221069668bb36efb4.JPG fdcdc00119f25a1ff49da8ae8822fac3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn Drake Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: We’re ready. Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducing and oral history interview with Marilyn Drake on July 17, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Marilyn about her experiences in the Hanford area. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Marilyn Drake: My name is Marilyn Drake. It’s M-A-R-I-L-Y-N. Drake is D-R-A-K-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you, Marilyn. And so tell me how and why you first came to the Hanford area. Marilyn Drake: Well, I was born in the state of Kansas, and when I was about five weeks old, my parents headed west. And somewhere when I was a baby, I would guess less than a year old, we ended up at White Bluffs out in the Hanford Area. Not long after being here, because of the dust storms and things, I got dust pneumonia, so my parents had to leave. So they ended up in Belfair, Washington. My father was planning on working in the shipyards there, and instead went to the Aleutian Islands. So anyway, we were out of the area then until about 1950, ’51. He was well enough to come back here and work as a carpenter out in Hanford. We lived in North Richland, the first time, in the 200-block, I believe it was, of north Richland, in the trailer park that was out there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Marilyn Drake: And it was approximately a mile long and two miles wide. [LAUGHTER] So it was a big trailer park. Then, of course, being on construction, he was in and out of jobs, because they’d finished up or whatever. So we had a home in Ellensburg and we’d go there until he got a job again, and we’d come back. So the second time, we were in the 1100-block on F Street in north Richland. I have fond memories of that time. I loved the John Ball School that was there. I went fourth grade with Mrs. Campbell. Fifth grade was—I take that back. Fourth grade was Mrs. Atkinson. Fifth grade was Miss Campbell, and sixth grade was Mr. Hoffman. Mrs. Atkinson gave me a love of knowing about travel, I guess. She shared experiences with being in Switzerland, which really got me interested. Taught us some things abut the Danube River. Then Miss Campbell was the next teacher, and I enjoyed her. And then Mr. Hoffman, he shared where he was during the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was decorating for a high school prom. So we went to school at John Ball in sixth grade until about halfway through the year, they moved us into Richland to, I believe it was, Marcus Whitman School, if I remember correctly. Evidently overcrowding. But the school was a neat place. We were in Quonset huts. The big cafeteria was huge; at least it seemed that way to me when I was a child. That was the times when teachers stayed with the class from the morning until they went home in the afternoon. So we wouldn’t go in the cafeteria, and we’d all join hands around the table, and we’d say the Lord’s Prayer before we had lunch. Which nowadays would not be done. [LAUGHTER] We had a Christmas play there. I played the accordion and I played We Three Kings of Orient Are for the play that was going on. When we went outside to play, there wasn’t any grass; it was all dust and rocks. So we took—the girls anyway—took the rocks and laid out floor plans for houses, and we’d play house while recess was going on. We also had air raid drills which, we all went out and there was a big ditch out there that we all jumped into, covered our heads with our hands, and got ready, in case it happened. The rooms were smaller Quonset huts; they had wings off of the main hallway. Whoever sat in the last of the row had to be a short person, because otherwise they’d hit their head on the roof of the Quonset hut. Franklin: Yeah, the semi-circular roof. Marilyn Drake: So it was an interesting school, but just really had fond memories there and really enjoyed it. I still think about it. And had some good friends. Each block in the trailer park, at the end of the block, there was a playground. We had swings and a couple teeter-totters. I think that was about it. The rest was an open sandbox and so on. So we kids spent a lot of time in the playground. There was also a large laundry room that had restrooms—because most of the trailers in those days didn’t have bathrooms in them. So you had restrooms there and there was a laundry room across the end of it. So usually after dinner, mostly the girls would go to the laundry room, and we would have a small ball. And we played bouncing against the wall and clapping your hands to catch it and so on. That was our form of entertainment. We didn’t have the TV and the Xboxes and so on that people have today; we had to make our entertainment. Franklin: Did you have a radio? Marilyn Drake: Yes, we did have a radio. I remember my father listening to the news, which I didn’t enjoy. But. [LAUGHTER] As I was young, then. Franklin: I never enjoyed it when my father would watch the news on TV when I was young, either. Marilyn Drake: Well, there were times he would lay on the couch and go to sleep and the radio was up above that in the front window on a ledge. So I’d sneak up the side of the couch and crawl across the back when he was asleep and either turn it off or change channels. And the minute I did, he’d wake up. So it was futile. Franklin: So did your trailer have a restroom? Either one that you lived in? Marilyn Drake: The first one didn’t. It was just a bed in the back, and we had a couch in the front. The second one had a bathroom and it was one-bedroom so I had the couch to sleep on. Franklin: Did you have any brothers or sisters? Marilyn Drake: I had seven half-brothers and a half-sister, but all of them didn’t live with us. Once in a while, one would come and stay a while. So I was more or less an only child. Franklin: I guess that makes it easy in a one-bedroom trailer. Marilyn Drake: My parents were quite a bit older; they were in their mid-‘40s when I was born, so— Franklin: Okay. Marilyn Drake: I grew up with older people. So the kids were mostly—the other kids in the other family were mostly grown and on their own by that time. So that was interesting. I remember the pharmacy or drugstore as we called it then in north Richland. Always loved to go in there because they had a big rack of magazines, all kinds, outdoors, comic books, whatever. Liked to do that. My neighbor next-door, they had two children: a daughter that was older than me and a son that was about three years younger, who I just reconnected with this last week. Franklin: Oh, really? Marilyn Drake: We hadn’t seen each other since 1954. So it was interesting. We had a good time visiting and we’re going to do more things together. His parents wouldn’t let him go to the movie unless I went with him, so it was kind of my first date. [LAUGHTER] Baby-sitting, I guess. But nice family; they were from Nebraska. Most all the people out in Hanford were from somewhere else, because they came in here to work. My maiden name was House, and this gentleman I just talked about that I reconnected with, his name is Tool. And across the street were the Surpluses. And so people would come by and say, did you guys put these signs up to be funny, or what? They didn’t realize we were actually with the names that we had. So just fond memories of the whole situation. [LAUGHTER] I remember the old steam plant that used to be, I think, on the hill not far from here. As you started up into north Richland, it was there. And that’s what they heated, I guess, the old barracks and stuff. So you had the big tubes that ran along the streets. Close to there, there was part of the lot that it as on, they had these piles of, I think, it was coal. And if you went there, you could find mercury. Being stupid kids that didn’t know better, we’d go and play with the mercury in our hand or whatever. Not a good idea to do, but we did. It was part of growing up, I guess. Had some pretty good dust storms during that time, which the Tri-Cities used to be well-known for. Also, a few rumbling thunderstorms that moved through. The streets at north Richland were paved by the time I lived there, but there are some pictures in the book that I brought that shows it without paved streets. There were several thousand people lived in this area. Franklin: Do you remember—you said there were blocks of these trailers, do you know roughly how many blocks there are and the amount of houses per block? Marilyn Drake: Okay, these were trailers, so you had 12 blocks long, or wide, whichever way you want to call it, by 24 blocks the other way, so— Franklin: Okay, and that was that mile by two miles? Marilyn Drake: Yeah, more or less. It was a big place. And we rode our bicycle everywhere; we didn’t have to worry about being kidnapped. It was a lot to explore around the area. We could ride down to the river and see what was going on down there. Franklin: Now, were these personal trailers that people brought or were they government owned? Marilyn Drake: No, they were personal. Each trailer had a roof, a second roof over top of it, just like the roof of a house, because of the heat. So that helped somewhat, because there wasn’t much air conditioning around in those days. We did get an old, old swamp cooler that my parents put in the backdoor of the trailer that we had, which helped. But it could get pretty hot. So anyway you had all these roofs that there were that many roofs over that many trailers. Franklin: Wow. And did the government provide those roofs for each trailer? Marilyn Drake: Yes. Yes, they provided. Franklin: Okay. And did they provide any other amenities? Marilyn Drake: Just the washroom and utility room area. I think, if I remember correctly, we paid $20 or $25 a month to the government for rent on the lot. You could raise—it was big enough that you could have a small garden or flowers, whatever you wanted. And people kept them up pretty well. Franklin: I bet. That was another thing I was going to ask about. Was there much landscape—you mentioned the roads were paved by that time and at the John Ball School there was no grass. But was there landscaping in the trailer court? Marilyn Drake: If each person wanted to put it there. There was nothing—the playground was dirt—actually sand, around here. So we weren’t the cleanest kids around when we came in from playing. But it was, I guess, what you’d call pristine compared to today’s standards. Most everybody had grass, which we had water to water it with and stuff. If they liked flowers they could have flowers. My folks planted up the one side, they strung, just off the—there was a wood deck, just like a porch. Just off of that, my mother got some, they were called something-cucumbers, and they strung them up, and they grew up the strings, so that you had shade. That helped a whole lot with the heat, too. So that type of thing, yeah. Franklin: Let’s see here. At school, you mentioned doing the air raid drills. Did you ever have to do evacuations? Where they would get people on buses and they would go outside? Marilyn Drake: No. Just, we went to the ditch and dropped down and covered our head. Franklin: Oh, wow. So I guess it must’ve been interesting having—you probably didn’t remember being in White Bluffs, but having been at White Bluffs and then now, the area’s totally transformed. Did you ever meet anybody from the old towns of Hanford and White Bluffs after you came back to Richland? Marilyn Drake: Not that I’m aware of. I’ve read stories, and I have the book that is put together about Richland, which shows things and tells about the schools. I’ve heard about the families that had to move out, government came in and said, tch, so many days and you’re out of here, and took it over. Which seemed kind of sad, because some of them had been like pioneer families. But it was for the nation’s cause, so. Franklin: You said that your father moved to Richland to do, was it carpentry? Marilyn Drake: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Why did he move to White Bluffs originally? Was it to farm, or to do carpentry? Marilyn Drake: To do carpentry. He went to work for—or, I think he went to work for Hanford. I don’t know how long that lasted because of my illness. But, yeah, he had been a builder of wooden barracks in Kansas when I was born. So for whatever reason, it was move west, young man. I guess. So he came out here and he was more or less a rough carpenter. Didn’t do finish work and stuff for the most part. Franklin: Okay. And do you know what kinds of buildings or projects he worked at on the Site? Did he ever talk about that at all? Marilyn Drake: I don’t know that he ever named them like 300 Area or 1000 Area or whatever that way. They built a lot of forms for buildings out there. He ended up with three broken ribs at one point because someone had put a two-by-four, stood it against the wall, and he bent over to get something out of his toolbox and the two-by-four came down and hit him across his back. Franklin: Ooh. Marilyn Drake: So he was kind of in pain for a while until that healed. But I don’t remember him specifically saying exactly where he worked. Franklin: And you said that after a while, when you were in sixth grade, your family moved into Richland proper, right? Marilyn Drake: Mm-hmm. The school did. We still lived in north Richland. But they did. Franklin: Oh, the school did. Marilyn Drake: Yeah. Just our class. Franklin: Okay. Marilyn Drake: I think it was the sixth grade class that they took the whole class in. And I’m assuming it was because they had too many students and needed the room at John Ball. And I was only there part of—I think we left in March of that year. The job ended here, and we ended up going up to Bridgeport, Washington to work on the Chief Jo Dam up there. So I was only a part of the sixth grade year. Franklin: Did you mostly hang out with north Richland kids, or did you know anybody in Richland? And was there a real—it sounds like there was kind of a separation between north Richland and Richland. Marilyn Drake: Yeah, more or less. The kids were usually the kids that went to school out there; there were quite a few of us. I remember one classmate, his name was Ronny Sloan. He liked beans. And my mother would make ham and beans, and whenever that happened, Ronny got invited to dinner. Because he enjoyed the beans. There was the Saltz family, which had, I believe, 12 kids. They had a very small trailer, but they had a truck that had like cattle racks on it, and they had canvas over the top of it. Most of the boys, I think, slept in the truck. They eventually owned a trailer park in Kennewick until a few years ago, and apparently sold it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Marilyn Drake: So I’ve been able to track a few of the kids, not knowing—not talking to them, but at least knowing where they were. Franklin: Were there stores in north Richland, or did you do your shopping in Richland proper? Marilyn Drake: For the most part in Richland. Like I said, there was a pharmacy, I believe there was like a soda fountain in the pharmacy if I remember correctly. I don’t remember any—there was a movie theater. That’s where we went to the movie. Saw Titanic with this neighbor I was telling you about. The original Titanic. I don’t remember any of the stores being there. Uptown Richland was really pretty new at that point; it had just opened not too long before that. So we went in there for groceries and anything else that we needed. Franklin: Okay, great. So then eventually your family moved away, right? You said up to work at the—which dam? Marilyn Drake: Chief Jo, up at Bridgeport, Washington. Franklin: But eventually, you came back to Richland, right? Marilyn Drake: When I graduated from high school in 1960, I was looking for a job and came down to Pasco and applied for Pacific Northwest Bell as a telephone operator, and I got the job. Had met my husband and he was in Sunnyside and I lived in Yakima when we met. But he was also down here with his parents. We ended up being married here in Richland by Judge Erickson. Franklin: Okay. Marilyn Drake: Our daughter was born in the old Kadlec Hospital which was the old barracks from the Hanford time. And then we moved away then to Michigan for five years, came back and spent 13 years here. We bought an F house and lived in it. Over on Mahan Street. Ended up in California for 23 years, which we didn’t initially plan on, but it worked out that way, and we came back in 2007 to retire here. Franklin: Okay. And what did—and so you said you lived here for 13 years, so from ’70 to ’83. Marilyn Drake: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And your husband worked out on Site? Marilyn Drake: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And where did he work? Marilyn Drake: He worked on FFTF, Number 1, a lot of the other places out there, 300 Area. Bob Drake: 2 West. Marilyn Drake: 2 West. He was construction, also, so you worked whatever job was going at the time. Bob Drake: The office buildings in the 300 Area, yeah. Franklin: I just want to say, for the record, Marilyn’s husband, and you prefer to be called Bob, right? Marilyn Drake: Yeah. Franklin: Right, Bob Drake is here. Just so—for whoever’s watching in the future. And what did you do while your husband worked out on Site? Marilyn Drake: I had a daycare in my home. Franklin: Okay. Marilyn Drake: Over that period of time, I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 children that went through my daycare. Plus raised my own three children. We had two boys that were born in Michigan while we were there. Yeah, so we had three children. Then my mother—my father passed away, and we moved my mother in with us. I had no trouble staying busy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Marilyn Drake: It was a busy time. But enjoyable time. We had good neighbors and enjoyed them. Couldn’t say enough about our neighborhood at that time. Hated to leave, but work is work and you like to eat, so— Franklin: Yeah. And how come you left Richland at that time, in ’83? Marilyn Drake: Because WPPSS had shut down the plants out there, the construction of them. For about a year-and-a-half, my husband was without work, and we finally decided, better start looking before the savings account dwindled. He and some other men from here went down to South Bay of San Francisco and found work there. That’s where we ended up living, was in California, for the 23 years. Franklin: Okay. Marilyn Drake: And there I went to work for the school district as a head custodian and spent 14 years. Franklin: Oh, wow. And how come you ended up moving back to Richland? Marilyn Drake: Well, in the process of living in California, my husband was an over-the-road truck driver for a while. We kind of watched everywhere we went, didn’t find anywhere that we liked any better than we like it right here. So then we came back. Our daughter lives in Yakima. Our two sons came back about the same time we did; the one son was here a little bit ahead of us. So that was the first time in 23 years that we’d all been in the same state together. So it was a—we just kind of like the area. This is, we consider home. Bob Drake: Consider it home. Franklin: Sure. No, that makes sense. Well, great. Was there anything else that you wanted to say about— Marilyn Drake: Let me think a minute to—just that we really like the Tri-Cities, the history is here. Our kids went to Richland School District until we moved to California. The two boys graduated from down there. They had good friends here and stuff, and still keep in contact. So just really enjoyed it, and like the history that is here. Got a lot of water to play with if you want to. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to ask you a couple more questions that are on my sheet here. I wanted to ask, what are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history, such as you talked a little bit earlier about the WPPSS plants shutting down. So I’m wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about any of your feelings about that and how it impacted your family and your life? Marilyn Drake: Okay. About the time that WPPSS shut down, we were living in a rental house in Richland Village. The newspaper sent out some reporters to the schools to interview some of the kids to see how this was affecting the families. Just happened, our daughter, who was a third grader at the time, was one of them that was interviewed. She had heard in the morning, my husband had asked me something about money. I don’t remember exactly what it was, but he made the comment that he only had $0.38 in his wallet. Well, she picked up on this, and she told a story that Daddy only had $0.38 in his wallet and we just didn’t know how we were going to buy food or any of the things we needed. So it made the paper. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, wow. Marilyn Drake: The one night I was fixing dinner, and I can remember, I was stirring gravy, and the phone rang. There’s this man’s voice on there. He’s, I understand you’re having a hard time making ends meet, something to that effect. So my gravy is getting thicker and thicker as he’s trying to talk to me. I didn’t recognize his voice. Finally, I told my husband, I said, you talk to him. But it turned out it was the father to this young man that I just reconnected with. He had read the article in the paper and had called to give me a bad time about it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, jeez! Marilyn Drake: So that was kind of a fond memory. We did go out and watch them set the dome on the— Bob Drake: Number 1. Marilyn Drake: The Number 1 plant out there, which was interesting. I’ve always regretted—because you couldn’t—used to couldn’t take cameras out there, so I didn’t take a camera that day. Well, it just happened that that was the day everybody could have a camera. So I didn’t get pictures. But it was very interesting watching that huge dome go on there. Bob Drake: The crane that they set that dome with was, at the time, the largest track crane in the world. And it still is, as I recall. Marilyn Drake: It’s the Lampson crane. Franklin: Oh, wow. Marilyn Drake: That had the big cement deals on the back of it to counter balance it. It was quite a sight. Franklin: Was that the first time you had ever been out on Site? Marilyn Drake: Yes, for me. Franklin: Oh, okay, for you. Marilyn Drake: Yeah, we’d gone through the highway that goes out to Vantage many times, but you could just see from a distance. There was always signs, no camera, don’t take pictures, you know. Franklin: Yeah, don’t stop. Marilyn Drake: Yeah. So, that was an interesting time. Franklin: How did that affect the community more generally? Marilyn Drake: Well it— Bob Drake: A lot of people lost their jobs. Marilyn Drake: Yeah, there were like 6,000 people lost their jobs in a very short period of time. Bob Drake: In about a week’s time. Marilyn Drake: So it was rough on everybody. The Tri-Cities always seems to come back, though, when they’ve gone through something like that. Hanford was one of those things that when the funding was there, jobs were good, and then it kind of petered out. So things would be quiet a while, and then they’d give some more money, and so here we go again. [LAUGHTER] So, being construction, if you’re smart, you save some money while you’re making it, to get you through those times. And usually the bad times were always around Christmas time, because weather’s bad and that was usually layoff time. So you better have some laid back a little bit. And of course I had my daycare, which helped out, too. Franklin: Yeah. Marilyn Drake: And I only did that because our youngest son, we were in a neighborhood that was mostly retired people, and he didn’t have anybody to play with, so I thought, well I’ll take care of a child or two and he can have playmates. Well, that mushroomed on me. [LAUGHTER] So I became an owner. [LAUGHTER] But. Franklin: What were your memories of like the social scene and maybe like local politics of that time that you lived in Richland? Marilyn Drake: Things, as I recall, were fairly quiet in those days. We didn’t have the problems that we’ve got today, because we didn’t have as many people, for one thing, I think. Richland was the smallest, I believe, of the Tri-Cities at that point. It was an All-American city. I believe it was in 1959, if I remember right, which was a little before we moved here, but we enjoyed our government house that we bought. It was well-built. About 1200-and-some square feet we raised three children in. They have fond memories of living there, which surprised me. [LAUGHTER] As far as the politics, I don’t remember—I remember President Kennedy, when he came and talked at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. Marilyn Drake: That was a big deal here. Franklin: Did you—but you didn’t get to go see--? Marilyn Drake: I didn’t get to go to that, no. We watched it on TV in those days. So, I did get to see it. The hydroplane races are a big thing, still, here. They used to be a little bigger than they are now. But that was a big thing for everybody to go to the hydroplane races. Tri-Cities has always been a giving community. Not just Richland, but the whole area. When there’s a need for a family or whatever, people chip in and give. That’s very nice. Franklin: Great. I guess my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about living in Richland during the Cold War? Marilyn Drake: That it—I know there’s been a lot of controversy over the years with the Richland Bombers. I never thought of it that way. It was just a mascot that the high school had. I think that it’s a good place to raise children. There are things here now to do. Like I said, when I was a child, you made your own fun. And we stayed out of trouble doing it. [LAUGHTER] Like anywhere, there are problems. More so now than there were years ago. It’s a nice clean place to be. We’re kind of located where it’s not that far to Spokane or Portland or Yakima or Seattle. So you’re not confined just to the Tri-Cities. It’s becoming more and more farming all the time. The desert is not what you think of as a desert anymore. It’s green! [LAUGHTER] We don’t get the dust storms that we used to when I worked at the telephone office in 1963 through ’65, the Horse Heaven Hills were all wheat fields. So in the spring, they had the fields tilled up and then the winds would come. There were many times that the highway would shut down because of the dust; you couldn’t see. So that, with the vineyards and stuff that we have now, that’s not as much of an issue. So I just like the Tri-Cities. It’s good weather. We did have a little bit of snow this last winter, but that’s not all bad. Bob Drake: It is rare. Marilyn Drake: It’s rare for here, yeah. So just enjoy being here. Franklin: Oh, great. Well, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview—or let us interview you. Marilyn Drake: Enjoyed it. Thank you. Franklin: Okay, great. Watch the microphone when you stand up. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:30:14 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marilyn Drake Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Marilyn Drake grew up in the North Richland Construction Camp, attended the John Ball School, and then lived in the town of Richland. Her father worked at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/17/17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f7a1080ceb3d6a90723c7f13a36df81.JPG 634281ef42eea2eb7cad255a0ba79ae7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion Keith Barton Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Hi, my name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Marion Keith Barton on May 1st 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. We’ll be talking with Keith about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full legal name for us? Marion Keith Barton: Marion Keith Barton. M-A-R-I-O-N, K-E-I-T-H, B-A-R-T-O-N Franklin: Great, thanks, Keith. Let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. Where and when were you born? Barton: I was born in Pasco. August 21st, 1951, at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital at Pasco. Franklin: Okay, so you’re local from the area. Barton: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. So I guess let’s back up a little further and talk about your parents. When did they come here and why? Barton: The Hanford Area—the Project here brought my dad and mom out this way in 1948. They were seeking work. They both are from Texas. I think my dad may have come out first and then my mom followed along and that’s how they got started. Franklin: Where in Texas were your parents from? Barton: My dad was, I think, born in Kildare, and my mom was born in Gonzales. My dad worked at a refinery but I don’t think it was in Kildare; it was in another part of Texas. So he had to go there for work, when he got older. My mom, I think, grew up in Gonzales. Franklin: How did your parents hear about Hanford? Barton: Through other relatives that had taken a—someone had come out here and started to work. A relative, I’m sure, because we’re related to a lot of people that were here at that time. They would phone back, or call back, whatever, and tell them, hey, there’s work out here at Hanford and you should come out. We’re making two dollars an hour or something, but it was a lot more than what they were making back in Texas, and so a lot of people just—another, another, another would come out and go to work. Franklin: What were the names of the folks that your parents were related to? Anybody stand out? Barton: The Daniels family, the Mitchells and the Miles. My dad was married to the Miles family that was out here. He was married to Gladys Miles at the time, I think in Texas. And then they divorced and he married my mom. Some of the relatives of Miles, they would never tell me anything. And they would call my dad, hello. Uncle Cracker. Because his name was Crack and they would him Cracker and all that stuff, but that’s what they would call him. They would him Uncle Cracker and I’d go—what? I never knew why they would call him that. But then I found out later he was married to their aunt and stuff. [LAUGHTER] Okay, now I put two and two together. But there was a lot of stuff that they wouldn’t share with you about the family history, and we didn’t have that way of tracking it back then like we do know. Franklin: Yeah. You said your dad’s name was--? Barton: Marion. Franklin: Your dad’s name was Marion? Barton: Yeah. But he had—I don’t know. I think he played baseball. A lot of people that—sometimes, like when they passed away, no one would know if they put “Marion” in the paper who was because they all went by their nickname. You wouldn’t know some of the people that even I grew up with. The only way thing you knew them was by their nickname. Franklin: So your dad’s nickname was Cracker? Barton: Yeah, and they called him Crack. But my mom and dad were Mr. and Mrs. Barton to each other. That was pretty easy. [LAUGHTER] You would know it when they said it. But that was the way that it was, and they all had nicknames. Franklin: Yeah, it seems like a lot of people came out of Kildare. That town, specifically— Barton: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --to come to work at Hanford. Was it just your dad that worked out there, or did your mom work out there as well? Barton: It seemed like my mom worked out there briefly but I mostly know that my dad worked out there more. Franklin: What else do you know about their lives before they came to work at Hanford? Barton: Well, my mom, when she was in Texas as a young girl, I think, she would just work for other families in the Texas area. She did like cooking and cleaning houses, and stuff like that, when she was in Texas. My dad, he was at the refinery and so somehow they met up. Franklin: What do you know about their education? How far in school did they get? Barton: My mom had maybe a year or so of college and my dad only had sixth grade education. Franklin: Oh, wow. What do you know about their initial experiences coming to work at Hanford and finding a place to live? Barton: Well, when they came to the Tri-Cities and to Pasco area—I think Kennewick was pretty much off-limits—and all the family wanted to stick close to each other and be around each other. I don’t think you could live from where the tracks were in Pasco, like past 1st Street and the underpass. You had to live in the east Side of Pasco at the time; you couldn’t live on the other side. Once you got past 1st Street you could live there for a long time. I think Richland was pretty much off-limits, too, to the black folks who came out here. I know my mom would ramble on sometimes, but my mom would say you couldn’t even get arrested in Kennewick; like, they wouldn’t even put you in jail if you were black. It was like 1st and Washington, I believe, a black guy, he was arrested. And she would tell me the story that they handcuffed him or tied him to a post and called Pasco and said, come get him. Come get your N-word. Yeah. That was pretty much the way it was. A few things that I would hear them say, just sitting around as a kid. Because as a kid, when they would talk, back then, you couldn’t say anything as a kid, you would just listen. If they said something that they didn’t want you to hear about their life, you had to go outside and play. So you couldn’t hear—well, just bits and pieces of what was going on. Franklin: Yeah. Where did your parents first move when they came to the Tri-Cities? Do you remember the first house they lived in? Barton: Oh, yeah, I mean, they were on 610 South Owen Street in Pasco. That’s where I grew up. Franklin: South what? Barton: South Owen. Franklin: Owen. Barton: Owen, O-W-E-N. Franklin: O-W-E-N. Barton: Yeah, and I think the house was condemned. When I was in high school, it was condemned. It had to be torn down, because it had no foundation. He had—basically, had a trailer that was sitting on that property and he built the house and he knocked out a wall of the trailer and built the house. The kitchen, a bedroom and a living room on to the trailer at the house, with no foundation and with part of the trailer still being there. They had to move, and so then we moved about two blocks up to Elm Street in the early ‘60s, around maybe ‘65, ’66—maybe somewhere in there, we moved to Elm Street—525 South Elm. And that was only two places up that we lived. Franklin: Great. Growing up, how would you describe life in the community? Barton: It was fun. Just growing up as kids, you just go and have fun and a lot of people around just playing and having fun. It was pretty nice. Franklin: Did you stay mostly in east Pasco? Barton: Yeah, pretty much, most of the time. We would go across, like when I got older and played Little League and baseball, we would go to Memorial Park and have games there. And then just kind of—we’d just walk back from there. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Barton: Well, in the summer time, as was a young kid, we didn’t have jobs or anything, so I would just play and stuff like that. I had strict rules not to get in trouble. [LAUGHTER] So those rules were pretty tight at the Barton household. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events? Barton: As a youngster, my dad would always have white parties at the Fourth of July. But other community events when I was really young, I don’t remember. Then they would have, sometimes—my mom was a democrat, so they would have different deals like a dinner or something. My dad would never go, but my mom would take me along and we would go to certain events like that. Franklin: You already talked about the house that you grew up in. Did you live by yourself or did you live with any other families? Was it a single family house or a multifamily situation? Barton: No, just our family. I had a sister there but she was like ten years older than I was. So by the time I got eight, I think, she was gone and had moved out. Franklin: Did you attend church? Barton: All the time I had to attend church. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Church was big. You had to go to church. I don’t go much now, but-- Franklin: What church did you attend? Barton: We attended New Hope Baptist Church. Franklin: New Hope Baptist. And what role did church play in the community? Barton: A big role. That’s where a lot of people got together. And I think that’s part of how they dealt with a lot of stuff and stresses: in church and the meeting and seeing other people. But Sunday was always church day. My dad didn’t go. No, he didn’t go. But my mom did. Franklin: Just your mom and you? Barton: My mom did, and I had to go. Franklin: You mentioned an older sister. How many siblings did you have? Barton: Just my older sister. Franklin: So your family’s just you and your older sister? Barton: My sister. Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions that people brought from the places they came from? Barton: Well, the Fourth of July was a big one. And baseball, I think was big. Before I got old enough, my dad was—how much older was he than I was? He was getting up in age when I started—I think he pretty much retired when I was in high school, so he wasn’t real active. But when they first moved here and were younger, they all played baseball. The Daniels, my dad, and several other guys in the community had a league that they played in. But I only know bits and pieces, because I was so young and I probably didn’t understand. But I know that they would always talk about playing baseball. That’s what they did for recreation and fun. Franklin: What about food? Did your parents—did people bring food traditions with them from the South? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. They would like—Fourth of July, like fish fry. There was a big fish fry on the Fourth of July. But they didn’t have—my mom and dad were pretty nice to a lot of people. People would come up and didn’t have much. Sometimes they would stay with us until they got on their feet and found a job and then they would move out. For the church, for fundraisers they would have on different Saturdays, they would sell fried chicken dinners and like that. They wouldn’t like—I think you could get a dinner for like—I don’t remember, something like three dollars, and you’d get fried chicken and a piece of pound cake and some other stuff like that. That’s how they would raise money for the church, the building fund, I guess it was—they were trying to help with. Franklin: Oh. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: What kind of opportunities? Barton: Work, just general, just work. They could work, but the amount of money they made back in Texas was minimal. And I don’t think they had the opportunity—with my dad’s education, I don’t think he had an opportunity to move up the ladder very much as far as getting a real high-paying job. My mom, she had more education, so she came out, and later on she got a job at Ice Harbor Dam as a biological aide, which was a fish counter. And so we did pretty good when she started working. Franklin: Oh, wow. In what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Barton: My mom, she was pretty active as far as for the community. She was on a lot of committees and stuff. We didn’t have sidewalks, so she tried to push to get sidewalks and stuff like that for the community. And I know she would work real hard for CAC, the Community Action Committee, I believe it was called. She was big on trying to get city hall to get provisions. Because on east side they wouldn’t do hardly anything with the roads, and I don’t think we ever did get to see sidewalks all around, but a few here and there. It was difficult. So it was a fight all the time to try and get improvements for the community. Franklin: Could you describe any interactions that you or parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Barton: Mostly just church folks and stuff like that, that I would see. Just relatives and stuff, mostly. And my dad, he had a few friends come by that—he liked to drink, and so he would have his drinking buddies come by. He had a pretty good relationship, I think, sometimes with the people that he worked with, and they would come by and see how he was doing, and bring him stuff like that. It was mostly just—they would work hard during the week, and the weekend they would go down to, I think, Jackson’s Tavern. He wasn’t a gambler or anything; he just liked to drink. But church was the big thing, how you had most of your interactions, it was just mostly with the church. That’s what they did. That was the big part of everything, was the church. Franklin: Yeah. Where did you go to school? Barton: Well, grade school I went to Whittier, which was on the east side. After Whittier, I did sixth grade at Whittier. And then I went to Isaac Stevens Junior High School. From there to Pasco High School. From there to CBC. And from CBC to Eastern Washington University. Franklin: How did segregation or racism affect your education? Barton: My mom always pushed for me to stay in school. Because I know one time she came home, she said—I think I was in the seventh grade, and my grades were not good. But the teacher—she would go to the meetings to see how I was doing. She came back and said that one of the teachers had told her, Mrs. Barton, we wouldn’t worry about your son, she says, because most of the black kids drop out of school in the seventh grade anyway. And my mom was pretty feisty. She said—I think she had a few choice curse words for him. She told him, I don’t know how many other kids drop out of school, but this one is not dropping out of school. She made a point to them that I wasn’t going to drop out of school. That kind of upset her real bad and I would hear that a lot. She would tell that story at different times to a lot of different people. Yes, yes. She was, like I say, pretty active as far as making sure that I stayed out of trouble. I had to stay out of trouble for one, and trying to make sure that she was up on what I was doing as far as education and stuff like that. But I had just kind of slacked off and I didn’t really try real hard. But I had to go to school and do something. Franklin: Yeah, thanks, that’s a great story. Who were some of the people that influenced you as a child? Barton: My mom. My dad, he didn’t say a lot to me. I don’t think he ever—well, he couldn’t really tell me about my grades, because he didn’t know. But my mom, she would—like, they would sell encyclopedias, she made sure that she bought a set. And different things for me to learn and to do things. Then the Mitchells—WS Mitchell, he was Vanessa’s uncle, I believe, but he went to Whitman and he would come by and he would talk to me a lot, too, and encourage me to stay in school and to do good and stuff like that. She was big on getting an education. She tried hard and she wanted me to do something. She didn’t want me to—like I said, I couldn’t get in trouble. Bad deal. Franklin: Yeah. Seems like that’s been really—that was drilled into you. Barton: Yes, it was drilled into me a lot. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What did your father do at Hanford? Barton: He was a laborer most of the time. I think he worked with the concrete a little bit, but I think he was just—he worked out of Local 348 in Pasco. Franklin: Which one’s that? Is that just the laborers’ union? Barton: Laborers’ Local, laborers’ Union. As I got older, I think he had a tough time at one while, because they had an election and my dad was behind this one guy that didn’t win. And the guy that won knew that, and so my dad was real limited on getting a good job after that. He quit later on, and he went—this guy that used to be in the orchard business, Bob Guier, I think he had a lot to do in the laborers at one time, I think he was a supervisor. My dad worked a lot of the dams like Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, and a couple others that I remember, and so he just—the guy wouldn’t give him a lot of work and so it was kind of hard on him. So he went out to work in Finley for Bob Guier, he was like a supervisor or something. Well, he was like—people would come in to pick grapes, and my dad would be, okay, you’re in charge of making sure of getting all of these done. But my mom was really upset with that because he didn’t make—Bob didn’t pay him a lot of money. And my dad wouldn’t go back and work out of the Hall anymore for some reason, whatever happened to him, it just set him back. It was kind of sad in a way, because he just wouldn’t go back and get his—and one guy tried to get him to come back so he would get his pension set, and he wouldn’t go back. It was a little bit difficult and whatever happened he wouldn’t talk about it, he would never sit down and tell me, hey, Son, this is what happened to me. So I didn’t know. But I know they tried to get him to go back; my mom said, you need to go back. There was one guy from the Hall, I think it was Paul Milsap. He got in later on, and he came to my dad and said, Mr. Barton—he called him Cracker—he said, you need to come back and go back out and get your pension set. And my dad just said, no. Because Bob had been nice to him and so he was kind of loyal to Bob. Bob needed his help, so he wouldn’t go back; he helped Bob. He just worked with him for—until he got to where he couldn’t get around so good. Franklin: Let me see my sheet here. So the next set of questions, they’re about your work history and experiences at the Hanford site. What sort of work did you do out at Hanford? Barton: Do you want to go to start or later on? Franklin: Yeah, let’s go through the whole thing. Barton: I’ll do the best on my memory then to tell you. Back in high school, I think once I had gotten 18, I think, you could work out at the Area. So I got a job on the 300 Area, just a summer job. I would go out and wash windows and they would put me with someone and do—pick up trash. It was okay for a few years. I worked there for about two summers. Then they liked me out there, and I went to CBC and they said, well, you can work nice—they gave me an opportunity and said, if you’re going to the school in the day, you can come out and work at the 300 Area at night, because the summer job was ending. I said, oh, I think I better try to do some homework and stuff, because—[LAUGHTER] I don’t want to get in trouble. I told them I could not. That was a good opportunity, because they liked what I did and I got along okay. But I didn’t do that. Then, let’s see. I went up to Eastern, then I came back and worked in the Area with Genie Carpet Cleaning. Then Carter ran that. I’d come home and work on the weekends sometimes, doing floors and cleaning the buildings and waxing floors and stuff like that. Then in ’73, I graduated Eastern and I worked at FFTF. And I got into a Laborers’ there and I worked about a couple years as a laborer out of Local 348. Franklin: That’s the same one your dad had been in. Barton: Mm-hmm. And I worked at FFTF for—‘til ’75. Then my girlfriend sitting over there, she decided to leave and go to Australia [LAUGHTER] because I wasn’t trying to cut the cake soon enough. She says, well, I’m going to take off and go to Australia. I said, okay. So I said, well, this is kind of boring. I need to go do something different. So ‘75 I joined the military. I went to the military for three years in the Army. And I think Kathleen got back in ‘76 or so? Kathleen Barton: ’77. Barton: ’77. And I was in the military ‘til ’78. Then I came back and I think I started working construction just for a little bit. I started working in construction, just for a little bit. But then in ’78, I got into the Apprenticeship Local 112. Because when I got back, they were looking for people for—Affirmative Action was helping some of the minorities get into the apprenticeships. At that time, they wanted blacks to get in, because it was pretty much you couldn’t just go down and get in just by applying. So there was pressure with—I think it was probably the CAC, or one of them—Affirmative Action Committee. I think it was Perry Blackwell, whatever organization he was running at the time. He said, okay, we’re putting some kids into these programs. And, he said, since you don’t have a job and just got out of the military, let me see your DD214, honorable discharge. Okay, looks like you can probably get in. Then I got into the apprenticeship in ’78. And then I did four years, I got out in ‘82. Then I worked a few jobs in the construction and then they were going to lay me off. I was—hard time finding a job and I said, I got to get something that’s more permanent, because she didn’t want me to travel. I got married in 1980. She didn’t want me to travel. She said, okay, if you’re traveling, I’m going, too. I said no, because she was teaching school. I said, no, you can’t go. I have to go. She said no, I’m not sitting here with these kids when you’re running all over the country. I said, I got to find a job locally, then. So I knew people. From growing up in the area, I knew people. C.W. Brown, he worked at Energy Northwest and our family knew their family—well, we knew pretty much all the black families that were here over time. But he worked at Energy Northwest, so he said, I’ll try put in a word for you. He said, well, they don’t have a lot; you can come out here as a laborer. I had already had my electrical apprenticeship. So I said, yeah, just when do I start? I need the work. I started as a laborer at Energy Northwest in ’84. I worked there until June 30th of 2015. Franklin: Wow. What did you do the whole time that you were at Energy Northwest? Barton: Electrical maintenance. First when I went in—I went into Energy Northwest as a laborer, just to get in. It took me about eight months and then an opening came in and they said, okay. I got into the electrical and they said, we are going to make you an apprentice again. I go, why? I said, why? Well, you don’t know this system. And I go, okay. So I had to do that for about, I think about eight months or so, after I got in. I got hired June 6th of ‘84 and I think I got into electrical until February of ’85. I had to do apprenticeship for a while. Then I got that and everything started to work out okay. I didn’t have to travel and look for work and just worked out there. Franklin: That’s great. Could you describe a typical work day? Barton: Hmm. In the beginning, it was pretty easy, pretty laid back. I had to do a lot of—at one time, I think, it was one of the hottest plants, as far as radiation, in the country, as far as them controlling it the and places and things that you had to do at work. So typical work day, laid back day, they’d just come in and give you and assignment and you go out and just start checking batteries, changing lights and doing like that. When I started you could pretty much—you could work 16 hour days pretty much, if you wanted to. It was like that, because they were just starting up pretty much. You could just work pretty much all you wanted to work. They didn’t have any—like at the end when I left they had hours where—the fatigue rule—they passed some other stuff later, where people were making many mistakes at nuclear plants that they had to—only could work so many hours for a certain period. They had that in effect. But when I started they didn’t have that in effect; you could just work and do pretty much what you wanted. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and supervisors? Barton: [LAUGHTER] It was difficult at times. Yeah, a little bit difficult. Franklin: How so? Barton: Well. You have to try to figure out what was going on at the time. And you knew that when I got into the electrical shop, I was the only black guy in there. So you weren’t told a lot of things. Some of the guys when I first got in the shop, they were letting them work all these hours, but they didn’t tell me I could work. So, I’d say, oh, okay. I think some of the guys would ask, why can’t he work, or something. And then they started letting me work a few other shifts. But it seemed like I had to do a lot of rad work, more so than—they had somewhere to go that I couldn’t figure out, I had to go in and do it, I’d go, wow, my dose limit is way up there. At times, I would be exceeding mostly everybody on the crew, as far as my dose. It was crazy. But what could you do? I couldn’t really say anything, because it was what you had to do, I guess. Some of the supervisors, they weren’t as nice. They just—but I knew that when you got out there and you started figuring it out, you didn’t have anybody really you knew to turn to for help, really. I knew I needed to work, so you just put up with a lot of stuff that—just to keep your job. The way I look at it is like this, if I go to another job, how do I know it’s going to be any different? So I just would put up with a lot of stuff sometimes. Franklin: Yeah. What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Barton: Outside of work? Sometimes we’d get in the electric shop, at times I would help coordinate a lot of stuff, so we would go and play softball and basketball after work and it was okay like that. You always knew who was who, and some of the guys that are around there that didn’t want to play or be doing that type-thing, they didn’t go. But we had interaction. It was okay. And we’d go down and have a beer or something and I made sure that I was there and to go and do it. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Barton: As far as? Franklin: Working conditions, but also, kind of like the work environment. Barton: I think once—it seemed like, after I first got in, and later on when some of the old-timers left and then the new people came in and some of the things changed, it got a little bit more difficult, as far as the work environment. Franklin: How so? Barton: We had this—I don’t know if I should mention names—but we had a few supervisors that didn’t want to see me in the shop, I’m sure. And then he would push other—say, for one instance, this one supervisor I had for a long time, they wanted to get rid of one of the workers and he was a white guy. The guy used the N-word. They came to me and said, this—they told me—we can’t have this, this guy is here using the N-word. And they said, this can’t happen and we need you to help us and we’re going to straighten this out. I said, why would I go after him? I’d have to go after half the shop. [LAUGHTER] I said, I’m not going to do that. I think I upset him. So it was a bad deal for me with him after that. You know, they would come up with little nitpicking stuff, like, one day I would get a work assignment and we go and get the job done. I was working with this other guy, Tony Galovese, and we fixed a gate for security. The security said, man, you guys did a great job. He said, we got some treats over in our shop. He said, you guys go have some. I told Tony, I said, Tony, I can’t go over there. I said, these guys are going to get me if I go. He said, so? I’m going. I said, okay. He went over and came back. The supervisor came and we walked into the shop and he said, where have you guys been? I said, well, we were on the gate. He said, I was out at the gate and you guys weren’t there. Tony said, well, I went over and had a piece of cake. The supervisor said, I need you both to go home. He said, you guys are out of your work area, and you should be reporting back to the shop. Just go home. I said, wow. With pay. So we got paid to go home. Okay. So, we came back and we had this big meeting and they said, well—and our steward, Tom McMahon, he came in and we talked to him, and he talked to the supervisor. Before I went home, I had to go talk to Bob Morris, who was our supervisor at the time, and he had the other guy, Bill Laternal(?) send me home. I talked to Bob, and he said, your situation is just like this. He said, you’re riding in a car with a guy and he stops and he’s going to rob the bank. And you’re in the car and you leave, you’re just as guilty as the other person. And I said, wow, okay. He said, so that’s the situation we have here. So I went home and then we went to a higher meeting, we had several other meetings and they said, we don’t see that they really did anything wrong--[LAUGHTER]—by going, you know, and reporting back to the shop to warrant sending then home for something like that. We don’t see that that should’ve happened. They said, Mr. Barton, what would you like to do with these—right now since this has happened? We don’t see that you’re at fault; what would you like to do? I said, nothing. I said, I would just like to do my job and be left alone. I don’t want to go after them, I said. I’m not after them; they’re after me. They put me in a different crew and it was a little bit different, but not a lot different, because you knew you couldn’t do anything. It’s like, you would be working, so what they would do is, okay, we’re giving out awards, people who are doing a great job around here, we are going to give out awards. So all of the people who got awards were his friends, the people that he liked. I’m still the only black guy in the shop, so I’m not going to get the award. I’m not going to base it on that, but the fact that he didn’t like me and that I didn’t follow suit and get rid of a guy that he wanted to get rid of and used me to do it was like, okay. We are going to punish you as long as we can. It was crazy at times. And then one time, I was working with this guy named Johnny Lane. Kathleen may remember this story. They were trying to put the blame on me, I think for this—I think it was about in ’93, somewhere in there, that was—we had a shutdown. And during the shutdown we had all these electrical enclosures, these cabinets that supplied power to different equipment, I’ll try to shorten the story because I do kind of carry on, I know. But when they shut the power down, sometimes they shut the feeder breaker off that’s feeding the whole cabinet. And some of them were like that, but this particular one wasn’t. We had Johnny Lane, he was working with me and we had to go clean this cabinet. I assumed Johnny knew that the cabinet was hot—or we always had to test before we touch and all that stuff. So we were cleaning down below and this cabinet blew up and Johnny got hurt. It was like, it was all my fault. How come you weren’t protecting Johnny? I go, well, I had been called away to answer a question to a guy, and I didn’t know Johnny was going to go into the top of the cabinet to clean. And then soon as I walked away, that’s when the explosion happened and Johnny got severely injured. He didn’t die, but he was injured. When it blew up, Johnny was on the ground and he was yelling and screaming and he said, Keith! Keith! And I ran back and Johnny was on fire, his clothes were on fire. I had a jacket on—it was kind of cool that day, and we were in the turbine building. So I took my jacket off and put the flames out and I grabbed Johnny because the thing was still exploding and I pulled him to the side. And then he never hardly said anything about it, there. But there was one guy in the mechanics shop, Jeff Rau. He said, Keith—and he was a steward—not our steward, but over in the mechanics. And he said, tell me about what happened. And I told him, and I didn’t know what he was doing. He said, tell me what happened up there with you and Johnny. I told him the story that I just told you. I said, well, Johnny and I were working and the cabinet blew up and Johnny was on fire, and when I grabbed him, I grabbed him by his heels, because he was just on the ground screaming. And I pulled him out of the line, because that thing was all blowing up, and got him safe. They were doing a drill that day so everybody was suited up to respond to the drill. So they reported and they came over and grabbed Johnny and flew him over to Harbor View. But Jeff said, well, Keith, I’m going to put you in for something here, because I think what you did was a heroic act, because you shouldn’t—the guy that I went to answer the question with, he was yelling at me, Keith, don’t go over there! Don’t go over there! Stay away from there! I said, I can’t, man. I don’t even think I said I can’t, I just turned and looked at him and I just ran and grabbed Johnny and pulled him out. When Johnny got out of the hospital, they had this big deal and my wife and I went up to Spokane. It was like a lifesaving award they gave me for going back and getting Johnny out of the fire. Kathleen Barton: But it was the union, not the company. Barton: Yeah, it was the union, but the company never said anything. Yeah, they didn’t even acknowledge anything. They were just like, why did you— And then I would go to class, and we were in the classroom, and someone posted all these pictures on the wall of where the fire and all that stuff was, right? You’re sitting there trying to study in this room and you have to look at that while you’re trying. I know what I went through and I wouldn’t talk about it with them. I just would look at it and say, why would they do that? Then what they did—Johnny’s daughter worked out there as a laborer. They sent her up there to clean up the stuff where her dad had gotten hurt. She had to go up there and clean up all of the debris and stuff that was on the floor and her dad almost died. I said, what kind of company is this? It was really sad. Franklin: Yeah. Barton: Yeah. It was like, wow. We have a picture of Johnny and my wife and I back then that they took up there at the award thing. And guys are saying, you need to bring that award out and put it at work. I said no, it’s not something that I’m proud of. It was something that happened, but Johnny got hurt. I’m not going to say, hey, look what I got! Because it wasn’t about me it was about—it was a sad deal. They just viewed it different. It’s like, man, why weren’t you over there? I just don’t know how to answer those questions. Because Johnny had been an electrician longer than I had. We would ride to work together sometimes. He was one of the nice guys. And Johnny had been a steward in the Local 77 at one time also. And we got along great, didn’t we, babe? Johnny and I. People probably—and Johnny didn’t pay attention—Johnny probably should have retired. I think he was about ‘67 when the accident happened. And he was still working. He probably should’ve retired. Back then, I don’t know if he had a drink that day or not that morning, when I picked him up for work. A lot of times—you know, before we had drug testing and all that stuff and breathalyzer that they got later on, some of the guys would have a sip or even smoke a joint or something before they went to work. And then Johnny—I don’t know if he had, but I don’t think they even tested him for that. I don’t think he had, anyway; it was just a mistake. So they had some changes after that. But the guys were telling me, oh, I would quit if I was you. I don’t know. I said, well, why? I mean, I don’t think I did anything wrong. It was kind of sad like that. Then a lot of stuff would happen that—you know, we would have to go into these real—we had to go into the reactor one time and it was really hot, and they didn’t know who to send in. Oh, hey, we’re going to send these guys in. And they’d prep them all and stuff and they would cancel it. This went on for about three days. I said, well, who’s going to go in? We don’t know. Then I came back to work—I was off, and I came back to work—and they said, oh, this is the night we’re going to do it. Oh, really? So I had to get a neutron and all this other gamma exposure to go do this job. And then you had to go do a body scan to see what you picked up. Probably a reason for my cancer that I had later on. But it was out there; they don’t do anything. It was difficult at times later on. The first part of it we used to play and everybody would have fun. I would, out in the shop, Frank Buono and I, we would organize a lot of feeds and stuff. Like, hey, we’re going to have this electric shop deal; we want to have everybody participate. And why not have fun like that? Later on we didn’t do that, because the rules changed and it got more serious. You couldn’t have—you had to be out on the job doing stuff. You couldn’t make—if you made a couple of mistakes you probably would not be doing the job, because they would say, okay, we’re going to pull your qual. You’re not qualified if you messed up something that—It was kind of—it was difficult. You could get blamed for stuff you didn’t do sometimes. It’s almost like, it’s like that. Franklin: in what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Barton: Security? Franklin: Yeah, or secrecy. Barton: Well, I think I was in pretty good with some of them, because sometimes you’d catch a security guard asleep. I’d say, hey, wake up, man. You got to wake up, because you don’t want to get caught asleep. So I think I was in pretty good with a lot of them. Because I wasn’t one to go and turn someone in. Even the guys—some of the guys that I worked with, if they made a mistake, or if I saw something, like if you leave something in the cabinet, I would let them know. I wouldn’t turn them in. I found a badge one time. It was in the men’s room. I said, who is this person? We need to get the badge back to them. If you went and turned—because he was a temporary guy, if I had gone to the security and turned the badge in, that guy would’ve been fired, because he was a temporary employee. A regular employee probably would’ve gotten a couple days off. Temporary? You’re gone. You left your badge. So I was the type of person to say, hey, find this guy and tell him his badge is here. So they’d get on the page and say, report to here. And he’d go over there and they’d say, here’s your badge and stuff like that. I would do stuff like that. But NRC, you really had to be careful, because I think they kind of felt that they weren’t doing their job if they didn’t find something. So they were looking all the time. They were looking for something—they were looking for something wrong—something you do wrong. We had these guys, observers who would come out and watch you work. Okay, are you—we got some service here. We want to check you out. They’d say, okay, we’re going to break; we’ll be back in 15 minutes, and so would try to go to break. But then they’d come back and watch and then see what you did. And then they would critique you and say, well, you did this well. But the thought was, you could never get 100—just like on an evaluation. You could never get 100%, depending on who you were. Because they always had to find something wrong. The supervisor would tell you, you can’t get a 100%. We will get gagged if we say that you did everything right. So you’d say, okay, well, give me that, and that’s fine. [LAUGHTER] Then if you got them really mad, on certain supervisors, you could go talk to them and tell them—and they’d say, well, you want me to change it? Yeah, you need to change it. Okay, we’ll change it. But security—NRC—you had to be real careful. If they saw you do—NRC in particular, they would come out at different times at night to check you and just to walk around. And a lot of times they were looking for security, because they’re at 12-hour shifts, and they’re night shift. The guy would come at one or two in the morning. They’d walk up and if they catch you asleep, you’re pretty much toast. And that’s what their job was, to catch you doing stuff. Everybody kind of hated NRC, and they knew what guy would come out. They would never want to interact—they would never interact with you. And I know there was one black guy that would come out, you would say, hi and he’d just walk, like—He would never have a conversation with you. Because he’s looking and we know that. Franklin: NRC just has jurisdiction over civilian energy power, right? Barton: Yeah. Well, they have—that guy would go to control room and look at stuff. If the procedure—see where you’re at in the procedure and see how they’re doing stuff, and watch their—Because you had three-way communication, as they say, and if you didn’t use the phonetic alphabet to discuss what you’re doing, your next move, and if you did something wrong—If you did something wrong in the control room, if you were an operator, you don’t work in the control room anymore. You lose your stipend, you lose your pay pretty much. They just send you out and you just go kick rocks until you can find something else to do. Or either quit. Depending on the severity of what you did, NRC would say, okay, that guy couldn’t come back. But they had to have punishment for wrongdoing because—to show that they corrected it. So it was difficult it was stressful, very, very stressful at times. Franklin: What was your reaction—or what do you know about your parents’ reaction to learning that the work that your father had done contributed to the development of atomic weapons? Barton: I don’t know. They didn’t really discuss it too much. They just said he worked out there, they built it, made a pretty good wage and they were pretty much happy, I think. So they don’t know that you did anything. Because everything was so secret. You would be working on something and I don’t think they knew. If they were actually working on something related to a bomb or something, I don’t think they knew it, because they wouldn’t tell you anything. And I knew that, that I would never hear them discuss like, oh yeah, I was in this one cell—they wouldn’t say anything that I ever heard. Franklin: It sounds like most of your work out there was not related to the plutonium production? Barton: No, not mine. Franklin: But I’m wondering, what do you think about that larger enterprise, having worked so close to it? Barton: I think they were doing stuff to try to get it right and you would see some stuff that happened that went wrong. But I wasn’t a whistle blower, so I don’t say anything, because I wanted to work. Because I knew what the repercussions were going be if you said something. You’re not going to be—[LAUGHTER] You’re not going to be working, probably, for long. And then you just kept your mouth shut about some things. I worked at 100-N and there was a big water spill and the Columbia River is right there. And I said, that’s not good! But I didn’t say anything. [LAUGHTER] That’s bad! Somebody needs to shut the water off. That water’s contaminated and it’s headed for the river! It sure is. You just kept your mouth shut. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Barton: The fact that they made the bomb and helped contribute to changing things. And that’s, I think, the big legacy: that they participated in that. Franklin: Switching away from work, and towards civil rights activities at Hanford and Tri-Cities, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Barton: Well, I know some of the times—like, you know, the money was good. I would hear the talk of—let me know if I’m not saying the right thing, though—but I would hear some of the guys talking like, if they saw that you were living well—if you were working and you were doing pretty good, and if you drove a newer car to work, you probably won’t be working very long. Because people would think that you were doing too good and that you need to have a step back. So you didn’t want to look like you were doing too good by showing that you were living a pretty good lifestyle. You just kind of had to keep it low-key. What I would see as a kid, those guys worked hard, but they drank hard, too, on the weekends. It was like—phew. But I don’t know if I told you that my mom was on the city council at one time. So she was an activist, I think, in trying to make sure that things got done. Franklin: Yes, you mentioned that she had campaigned for sidewalks. Barton: Yeah, and at the time that she was on the city council, they were pushing for the Cable Bridge. She was instrumental—or on the committee and the city council at the time that they were voting to get that cable bridge done. Yeah. And some other things, huh, babe? She was pretty outspoken, wouldn’t you say? Kathleen Barton: Mm-hmm. Barton: Yeah, a lot outspoken. So she kind of kept—pretty much ran things around the house. And then she—pretty active in the church. You tried to make sure that people that needed help would get the help that they needed and if it had to come out of her pockets, sometimes she would do that, too. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Barton: Back then I think Wally Webster was a big one. I think Art Fletcher came through there one time and I think he was on the city council. He was kind of a big shot. And I think my mom was in there, too, Katie Barton. Franklin: Katie Barton? Barton: Yeah. She was in there, because she knew all these people and she would go out and give talks and stuff at different things. Let me think. That’s just a few of the names. I know there’s more names, but that’s just— Kathleen Barton: Joe Jackson? Barton: Yeah, Joe Jackson, I think he was on the city council, too. He was more of the quiet type, like, I don’t know what he pushed for. Katherine, who was Katherine? She wanted to run, what was it? Senator or something? Kathleen Barton: Yes, she was. Barton: Katherine Smith. Kathleen Barton: [INAUDIBLE] Barton: Yeah, she was big in pushing my mom. Mom knew some people from WSU. There was a professor-- Kathleen Barton: Dallas Barnes. Barton: Dallas Barnes was a big one. Franklin: We talked to Dallas. Barton: Yeah. He was big. He probably knew a lot more, because he had a business on the east side of fish market and he was into a lot of things. Franklin: Yeah, we interviewed Dallas a couple, about a month ago now. We’re hoping to interview Wally. But those are some other good names. Any other names you can think of? Barton: Wayne Jackson, did you interview him? He knew a lot, because he was my mom’s campaign manager when she was for city council when she had to run at-large. He could tell you a lot about the activity and what my mom did. Franklin: Do you have contact information for him? Barton: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. Maybe I can get it from you after the interview. Barton: Yeah, I can give it to you. Franklin: Okay, what were some of the noticeable successes of civil rights efforts in the area? Barton: I think at the time before they did away with the Affirmative Action and stuff, they were instrumental in getting a lot of kids into building tradecrafts and stuff like that. Because otherwise, like now, you can’t get in, because they just—there’s nobody there to push sometimes and it makes it a lot harder. And people get overlooked and stuff like that. At the time when they had to take you in—because I would hear it, too, because I’d go to work back then, and guys would say, you got my job. I’d say, how did I get your job? Why would it just be me? Because he figured I’m the only black there, and he could’ve had that job because all the guys are white. So I took his job. Just like, really? So I would never react or say anything, I’d just usually kind of walk away and say, well, I’m sorry man. You got to be a little early next time. Stuff like that. You couldn’t be pushed to where you’re going to have a confrontation, because it’s probably not going to be good for either one of you. You just got to walk away and just deal with it. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges in the civil rights movement here? Barton: The biggest challenges, I think, was just the day-to-day grind, trying to get stuff done. Just trying to get people to realize that, hey, we need sidewalks, we need this and we need that. I know—I think my mom—I know Katherine, I think one time they went to a meeting, and they told the people at the meeting, said, if you’re not going to get certain provisions for the east side or do something for east side improvement, we will never pass another school levy. [LAUGHTER] So it was like a threat that we were going to get all the people not to vote for a levy. So count us out if you’re not going to make some improvements or any kind of thing like that for the city. I think it helped some people get jobs, like I said, that ordinarily wouldn’t have gotten jobs. They fought for people, you know, we have no blacks in certain areas and stuff and so let’s do something. Because it was hard getting hired for certain things. I was pretty fortunate, I would say. Like in the sixth grade, when I got out, Mr. Luke, he came and said, we need two guys that you would select to work at the Jumbo Restaurant. It was on the Lewis Street on the east side. He picked myself and Bill Skinner. Bill Skinner was—I don’t know what condition he’s in now, but he ran a few committees on the east side and he was—he would be a good one to talk to. I think his mind is still pretty good. He’s got a lot of physical issues, but he ran a—he could tell you a lot if you could get ahold of him. I don’t have his number. Franklin: It’s okay, we could try. Barton: I’m sure I can look it up. But I got your number and I could always call and let you know if I could get it. Franklin: Great, great. Let’s see here. I just have a couple more questions, actually. Barton: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, I think we’re almost done here. Was there anything different about the civil rights efforts here, compared to the larger civil rights—like national civil rights movement? Barton: I don’t think we had as many people out to—other than just the committees and stuff to go after things, unless—I think the fact that we didn’t have a lot of people pushing for movement or whatever. But in a way, I don’t think we had the same challenges they had in some of the larger places, either. Like I said, for a while, I don’t think I really had it all that bad. I knew that you couldn’t do a lot of stuff. But I don’t think I had it as bad as people in Seattle—maybe Seattle or even down South that they had, because it was—so I don’t know of lynchings here or anything like that. You just didn’t—maybe not get served or treated bad, but you didn’t have-- Franklin: Did that ever happen to you or your family? Did you ever get refused service? Barton: Do you remember? Kathleen Barton: I remember you and I got—remember the guy at Denny’s that got mad at us? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I don’t remember. Sometimes it’s not that you don’t get served, but it’s almost like you go to a place and we sit down and everybody else is eating, and you’ve been there a lot longer. And you say, this is not too good. So you kind pick up on little things like that. It’s pretty subtle at times, but if you experience some of the things, you can see it right away. Franklin: Right, you can put two and two together. Barton: Yeah, you can put two and two together real fast. Franklin: Were you directly involved in civil rights efforts? I know your mom was, but did you ever get involved in anything in the late ‘60s or ‘70s? Barton: No, I just watched her. I wouldn’t—I just watched her go to stuff. We might have a dinner or something, or there’d maybe be a pageant or something. But all of the other stuff that she did with her constituents, like Wayne or Katherine Smith and people like that. And you had a lot of blacks that pretty much just weren’t really interested. They had a job. They didn’t even participate to go to that stuff. My mom was busy and she was out there. But I know a lot of the people they didn’t—if it benefited them, okay, they said, oh, yeah, this is great. But they didn’t go and push that. It was only like a handful of people usually doing it. Franklin: Why do you think there wasn’t a broader involvement? Barton: I think most of the guys that were doing that, they had a lot of education. And some of the other people I’m talking about, they were just content to have what they had and not to worry about what someone else didn’t have. My mom, she wanted to see equal rights for the community, not just for herself. And I think that’s why she fought. So it just took that kind of a person to do it. Because a lot of people, they had a job, they didn’t want to rock the boat and be out canvassing for someone else to—hey, sidewalks, oh, I haven’t ever had sidewalks! What am I going to do with sidewalks? I don’t care! My mom thought that was not right, because she saw the world different. And they were just content. And I think Mom could’ve been content. But she didn’t take a lot of stuff. Didn’t like talking down. She would stand up for my dad, because my dad was like that. He didn’t have a lot of education, but she was with him. I think when he retired he went down social security office and my dad said, well, where do I need to sign? She said, you sign right here, boy. And my mom said, what? And a few curse words came out. She let the person know that my dad was not a boy. She said, I don’t know where you’re from, but we don’t have any boys in our neighborhood that’s 65 years old. So he is no blank-blank boy. We got that straight. Someone else was like, whoa! Okay, wrong person to pick on here. But she stood up for what she felt was right, and then she didn’t want to take anything less. Franklin: Do you think that—you kind of said earlier that it seemed like those were the most educated were kind of those that were more willing to push. Did you see a correlation between education level and the involvement in civil rights and equal rights? Barton: Yeah. And equal rights? Franklin: Yeah, civil rights and equal rights—like pushing for equal rights. Barton: Oh. I was going to say, no. Education level doesn’t mean that you’re going to be treated any better. Franklin: Right, right. Barton: No, that didn’t mean that. But I mean, the more educated they were, the more they were more likely to speak out. Because some of the guys are probably not too good at expressing themselves when they’re limited on—Because I mean, like my dad—I don’t read a lot myself—or hardly any—but I think I’m a little bit in a different level than he was. But not being able to read at all and express himself, he could probably tell you how he felt about things but I never heard him say anything. Other than the fact that he knew he couldn’t get a job because he voted for the wrong person that got in—or that didn’t get in. My mom, she saw the world a little bit different, because with her life experiences and things I think that—like I said, she had some college and she saw what could happen. She just didn’t put up with a lot of stuff. She would go and fight for better conditions. Franklin: Yeah. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Barton: Like I tell my kids, I said, getting an education is big for us. We wanted want our kids to get a good education. And I said, the more education you get, I said, you’ll make more and you might get treated better, because you’re at that level, and you just always try to be the best. Am I answering that correctly? Did I get off a tangent again, I have to be careful. Franklin: No, no, no. It’s one of those questions that doesn’t have a right or wrong answer. Barton: But I just think that if you get an education, then your life’s going to be a whole lot better. Because the challenges that you meet and face, you can deal with a lot more, sometimes, that you’re not struggling just trying to make a day-to-day to live and eat and stuff like that. So, it is a better life for you. You can get out and say, okay, if I can’t work here, I know I can go here, because I got credentials that say I can do it, or I can move somewhere else and get in and do that. That’s what we taught our kids to make sure that they got a good start by getting an education—I think that’s the big thing—and staying out of trouble. It’s like, if you wanted to—out of Hanford where they pay you well for this area, you don’t want to have anything on your record. If you get arrested and you go out there and it shows up on your record, you’re not going to even get hired. You can forget it. Because you have to have the clearance. I think it’s even more so, because it’s not only the record, but they— When I left, they would come in and say, okay, we’re going to run your credit score. I go, what? The guy ran mine and he said, yours is better than mine! I said, well, I guess that’s a good thing, huh? [LAUGHTER] Probably you shouldn’t run mine anymore then. But they look at stuff like that, what kind of person you might be, would you be willing to accept a bribe or something like that, or would you give a secret up because you’re struggling? They want to just know all your background, we would get fingerprinted, we would get all of that done. If we get in trouble, you got to call them and let them know if you got arrested, and depending on the severity of your crime whether you’re going to be working or not. Franklin: Wow. Barton: Yeah, so, you just keep your nose clean and work hard if you want to move up the ladder. It’s not that way in every case, but it’s a little bit harder because some of the things—like in the trades, you just can’t go out there and say, okay, I’m going to move into this job without going to school for it. You have to go to school. But once you get out there and you know what’s going on, it’s likely if you just do your job and do it well and stay out of trouble, you can do okay. That’s kind of—I don’t know. I don’t know if I knew my job very well, but I knew how to play the system enough to stay out there. [LAUGHTER] I figured it out. Yeah, I figured it out. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, segregation, civil rights and how they impacted your life? Barton: Help me, babe. Kathleen Barton: [LAUGHTER] I think if it hadn’t been for the things that were done when you were a child, you would never have gone to college and you and I would never have met, and you wouldn’t have your kids today. Your life would have been considerably different because they stopped school segregation when you were young. Barton: Yeah. Whittier was pretty much, I think probably 98% black. And then in high school, there was a bunch of fights all the time. The black and white kids—there was a lot of fights. But I didn’t get into any. I had a lot of fights, but I was fighting with the black kids. I don’t know how that worked out. [LAUGHTER] That’s who I was fighting with, all those guys I grew up with. I would see that a lot, people getting skirmishes. Like in my—like I took some shop classes, like I took automotive class. And the guy said, okay, we’re going to make you the guy that they got to. We’re going to make you the lead in my shop class. So I didn’t see a lot of that. I struggled with my other grades a little bit, but my shop classes, it was kind of a relief because I could pick up on that stuff pretty good and do okay and just have fun. I didn’t get in any fights—one—a couple at my school, but like I said it was with black kids, but I never had fight with any of the white kids. But I would see the struggle. Then the drugs came along and that made it a lot bad—pretty bad in the ‘60s and stuff when the drugs came in and a lot of people just went downhill after that. I’d see a lot of guys, just—it was terrible. Arrests and deaths and it just took a toll on a lot of people. I think that was the big thing that happened. It was kind of sad. So that made struggles a lot worse, because some were not being able to work. So my mom always said, if you’re not going to work, you’re going to steal. So it’s what they did a lot of times. I could count a lot of guys that just took to doing bad things to survive. Franklin: Yeah. Well, Keith, thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to interview with us today. Barton: Yeah. <a href="https://youtu.be/p3iRUDRiS88">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area FFTF Energy Northwest Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1969-1975 1979-2015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion Keith Barton Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Affirmative Action Nuclear industry Nuclear energy Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Keith Barton was born in Pasco, Washington in 1951 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1969-1975 and 1978-2015. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/01/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F10b72a1bb887a33181ac6eabae5a358e.jpg e4bfb4cd44077ca2ec6d0844208858b6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F02706db0d9e51e4754e345df41b8f353.mp4 f2c38a4f81e871c00bf44e4b0f9b7d96 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margie Ann McCormack Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history with Margie Ann McCormack on April 27, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Margie about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. ANd for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Marjorie Ann McCormack: Yes. M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E. A-N-N. McCormack, M-C-C-O-R-M-A-C-K. Franklin: Great. And thank you, Marjorie for coming in here to do this oral history interview with us. So I understand that your involvement with Atomic Energy and kind of what became the National Labs and thigns starts before you came to Hanford, and it starts at Oak Ridge. So I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your time there and what led you to come to Hanford. McCormack: Well, I took my training, the x-ray training in Knoxville. So then I went to work in Oak Ridge. And the war had just ended, and it was a military hospital still. So all the doctors were officers, and I went to work for a very wonderful x-ray technician--doctor. He was from San Diego, originally, but he was working there. He was just a wonderful guy. But he got mustered out. And they started to fill in the places in Oak Ridge Hospital there with civilian people. So, a civilian doctor who came to work for us, and he was setting up an office of his own in Knoxville. Well, they had two x-ray departments there. One an in-patient, and the other a regular out-patient one. So I was sent in the outpatient one. Well, there was a young man, an x-ray technician who had been in the service, and the two of us were working in this outpatient place. Well, he came to me one day, this young man, and he said, I don’t know what to do, he says. This doctor, radiologist, everyday is asking me to take some very important attachments for the x-ray machine out and put it in his car. So we decided what he was doing was he was furnishing his office in Knoxville with the equipment ther ein the place. Well, that was--he was stealing government equipment. So, he said, I don’t know what to do. And I said, well, you’re married and have children, and I’m single. I said, I’ll go report him. So I did. And somhow or other, he got word, and fired me. And so there I was, at the ripe old age of 23, being fired from my job. So my next-door neighbor was head of personnel. And he said, well, are you going to contest it? And I said, why? I don’t want to work for him. And he doesn’t want me! And he said, well, are you goigng to fill out some papers to send somewhere that you’re loking for a job? And I said, no. I don’t think at this point, I don’t even know whether I want to stay in x-ray or not. But unbeknownst to me, he borught a couple of folders over and filled them out with my help. That’s when I saw them. So I went home to my home in Virginia and sort of though, well, what am I going to do here? And lo and behold, he had filled a couple out and sent them off, and I had an offer for a job in Texas. So I called the number and they said, yes, they’d love to have me. And so I thought, well, fine. But then I didn’t hear anything more from them. And so in the meantime, I got an offer for a job out in Oak Ridge--I mean, excuse me, hold up a minute--out in Washington State. So I wrote back and said, well, yes, I would be interested in your job. And they wrote and said, well, we’d like to have you. So, I got the job here. And I wrote and said, well--it said Richland on the thing. So I went and wrote out there and said, well, where do I come in to? And I can’t find Richland on the map. So they said, well, come in to Pasco. So in due time, I got on a train and three days later, I came to Pasco. Well, to digress a little bit, I had met a woman in Chicago and she happened to ride out with me. Her family was meeting her, and I was supposed to have had a guy--it was the train came in at midnight. I was supposed to have had a driver to take me to a hotel. I didn’t have any--and I called--it was called transient quarter. And I said, do you have a room for Marjorie Hyatt to night? And they siad, no, we don’t have any record of it. And there I was at midnight in Pasco, no driver, no place to stay. Which is--well, where do I go from here? But her lady that I had ridden out with, her family was meeting her. And she realized that something was happening. So she said, let’s hold off a little bit. And when I called and they didn’t have any rooms, they said I could have a room for one night. So they brought me in to Richland and I had my one night at this estate. I was a little confused about that time. I didn’t know whether I wanted to work for these people called General Electric. Was that right, GE, General Electric? And got up the next morning and looked out the window, and they said, there’s a big river, and tehy told me this was a desert! So I went down and I said, is there somewhere here I could eat? And they said, well, across the way, there’s a big cafeteria. You can get breakfast. So I was all dressed up, you know, and I started across this big lot of grass. I’d never seen one of these watering things that turns and sprays. And one of them sprayed me and got me just soaked. Well, that was the end of the line for me. I thought, well, I’ll go back. I’m dying to get back home. And when I opened the door to the TQ, they said, are you Miss Hyatt? And he says, they’re out there looking all over for you. He said, he found the notice this morning that you were supposed to have come in last night and have a room. And they didn’t know where I was. So that was my entry into Richland. But everything was straightened out and I joined the--I got my job and I joined a group called Dorm Club. It was a single club for all the people who-- Franklin: The Dorm Club? McCormack: It was called the Dorm Club. Franklin: And what year did you come out? McCormack: 1947. Franklin: Okay. McCormack: And from then on, I loved it. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you get involved in x-ray? McCormack: Well, I went to college to be a lab technician, and then I went into Knoxville to go and they had a hospital there. They had an opening for an x-ray technician and a lab technician. And they said, would you mind switching from lab to x-ray first? We have an opening there now. And I siad, well, I’ll give it a try. And I hadn’t been in x-ray three days till I knew that that was what I wanted to do, and I never did do the lab. Franklin: Oh, wow. So did you spend the war, then, in college? McCormack: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And wehre did you go to college? McCormack: Mary Washington College. It was a division of the University of Virginia. It was in Fredericksburg. Franklin: Okay. And so you got here in ‘47 and you, besdies having kind of a rough first day, you--so can you tell me a little bit more about the Dorm Club, this kind of singles club, and what single life would’ve been like in the rough-and-tumble town. McCormack: Let me get a drink here. Franklin: Oh, sure. McCormack: Well, when I came here, all the single people lived in dorms. You had to be married to get a house. But they had a lot of dorms. They had, at one end of town, had women’s dorms, and the other end had dorms for the men. And the Dorm Club was just a reason for all the single people to get together. Franklin: Okay. Was wanting to get out of the dorms, you think, kind of a motivator for some people to get together? McCormack: Well, we were having so much fun--[LAUGHTER]--that I never heard any complaints that way. The single people just didn’t get rooms. At that time I came, they weren’t sure that Richland was still going to be there, you know, and there was a time where they thought we’d be folding all up. And then the--what was the name of the war about that time? Franlkin: Korean War? McCormack: No. [camera man]: Second World War. McCormack: So, about that time, the war had fracas with Russia. Franklin: Oh, the Cold War. McCormack: Cold War, that’s what I’m looking for, was the Cold War came along and all the sudden, things boomed again. And I was here, came here in 1947 in April, and that summer, they hired 100 new tech grads. And, boy, was that fun. 99 of them were single. [LAUGHTER] And there was all these dorms. And that sort of what spurred things on in the area. The Dorm Club is where we got together, once a week. It was on Mondays. The boys, as I say, lived in the dorms at one end, and we in the other. But there was something going on all the time in the Dorm Club. Every Sunday night, there was a dance. Different places around town, there was two places that had a dance floor and a music nickelodeon or something like that. So that’s where we had the dances. And after a while, we started organizing a few things. LIke there wa s acamera club, and there was a bridge club. There was different kind of organizations. So there wasn’t any reason for anyone to sit around and mope; there was plenty of things to do. The war was still--you know, just finished. The men didn’t have any cars. But as time went on, the fellas started getting cars. And a lot of them were second-hand cars, not what you called the fancy cars, but they had wheels. So that’s when we started doing a few things out of town, like going hiking and camping in the summer. We tried to go to the city when something music or something was being shown, either Portland or Seattle. So we’d go--what’s that? Franklin: Can you describe an average--or can you describe the room in the dorm for me? What did the rooms look like? McCormack: Oh! They had singles and doubles. I was never in the men’s dorm, believe it or not. But it was single rooms, and it was a good-sized double room. And it had two beds, windows in the front. We each had a desk and a closet, a chair, and all the linens were furnished, and we had daily--somebody came in every day and made the beds and everything. We had it pretty easy that way. We were comfortable. And I happened to be in a dorm with this big cafeteria, just like walking across this room. So taht’s where you went to eat. Franklin: For your three meals? McCormack: Uh-huh. Three meals, yeah. It was a big huge cafeteria. Well, the building’s still there. Franklin: Oh, really? McCormack: Yeah! Franklin: Which building is it? McCormack: It’s changed into several things, but the main building is still there. Frankin: ANd the women’s dorms were kind of down by where Albertsons was-- McCormack: Mm-hmm. Franklin: --right, off of Lee? Kind of around that area? McCormack: Mm-hmm, Lee Street. In fact, it was Albertsons I think that they tore down and put some of the buildings. Franklin: Oh, interesting. And so what was--you started work at Kadlec, right, Kadlec Hospital. So I’m wondering if you could tell me kind of about an average day at work? Kind of what your duties were and how you McCormack: Well, I went to work at 8:00. Eight to five everyday. I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the original hospital there. It was one long building with wings. Government issue. And we had a very nice x-ray department with two rooms, two different x-ray machines, and a portable facility. It was for the workers and for the civilians. Once in a while, something would come up and we’d have a busy day of 100 patients, government ones. Others, it was just the regular people around town, like any other town that needed x-ray business. Good equipment. Fraknlin: What was it like to--what was recreation like in Richland at the time? Was the Uptown mall here when you moved here? Or was that constructed later? McCormack: It was a very small town. That’s why the Dorm Club was so busy. There wasn’t much to do. We had two theaters, which the buildings are still there. There is one of them original, the theater group bought the building. Franklin: Oh, the Richland Players, right? McCormack: Uh-huh, bought the building and it’s still in use. And the other one just lasted until not too many years ago, and it was torn down. And that’s along George Washington Way, pretty close to where the--I keep forgetting. The big hotel. [LAUGHTER] Franlkin: OH, yeah, yeah. McCormack: I was trying to think of the name. Franklin: No, that’s okay. Yeah, is it the Red LIon, is that the one you’re thinking of? McCormacK: Yeah. It was pretty close to that. Franklin: Yeah. And so how long did you work at Kadlec for? McCormack: I worked at Kadlec nine years. Franklin: Okay. And did your duties change at all during that time, or were you still a technician for the whole time? McCormack: I was x-ray tehcnician the whole time. Franklin: How was it, being so far away from your fmaily? And kind of being single and alone, kind of by yourself in Richland? McCormack: Well, I was so disillusioned when I left Oak Ridge, and I got out here, and I just felt like I was in another world. ANd I was, really. And I put Oak Ridge behind me and just had a wonderful time here. I actually--you talk about taking somehting out of your brain. I actually forgot the name of that doctor, because he was such a scoundrel. I digress a little bit. They didn’t even wait to get a replacement for him; they fired him. Which was pretty unusual then. So I just couldn’t remember his name. Franklin: Sure. McCormack: I didn’t want to think about him. Franklin: Did you go back home--did you go back to the east coast at all to visit your family the first few years you were here? McCormack: I went back just about every second or third year until my mother died and until I got married and had three little kids. I didn’t travel so much then. Franklin: Sure, sure. And I heard that you--one of the people that you knew from when you first moved here was Steve Buckingham, right? McCormack: Oh, yes. [LAUGHTER] Franlkin: And how did you meet Steve Buckingham? McCormack: At the Dorm Club. Franklin: At the Dorm Club. So he was also living in the dorms, too, right? McCormack: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: And you’re still friends with Steve, right? McCormack: Still friend.s We dated for two or three years. He wa sa great guy, because he’s a local--that being Washington State. We had a good time together, but we just never got married, and drifted away. My birthday--I am one week older than Steve. ANd we used to have birthday parties together. We were good friends, but it just wasn’t meant to be married. Franklin: Sure, and that happens. Well, that’s realy sweet. So you met your husband, Jerry. How did you meet? McCormack: By the time he came along, I had moved into a prefab here--I digress again. For a very short time, when I came here, they thought they wren’t going to be here, so they started letting a few places out to single people. So there was a few prefabs. And there was one that had three girls in it. When one of those girls left, a friend of mine took her place. ANd when somebody in the house left, another one took their place. And finally one day, they called and said--me, I’m still in the dorm--would you like to move in with us? So I moved into a three-bedroom prefab. They only had about three of them left, because things had picked up here in this Cold War, and housing was short by then. So I was lucky to be in one. Franklin: And how was that different from living in the dorm? McCormack: Well, we could do what we wanted to. We had the house, and it was completely furnished. The dorm was a dorm, you know, with all those people. We had our own ways of doing things. I guess the interesting thing was, it became this social house for a lot of our friends, because they would come to the house. We couldn’t do the dorm. Franklin: Sure. Yeah, you didn’t have the space to have people over, right? McCormack: I’m sorry? Franklin: In the house, you had space to have people over and the yard-- McCormack: Yeah, it was just a normal three-bedroom house. It wasn’t a huge thing. But the boys in the dorms loved to come, because they were in the dormitory, too, and just had a room. But it actually was a lot of fun there. We had a lot of good times there in the prefab. We could--no overnights, though. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, of course. When you moved in, did it still have most of the original furniture and fixtures that it had come with? McCormack: If you didn’t have it, it was furnished. All the furniture was furnished in this, even to the linens. The oly thing we had to furnish ourselves was our pots and pans and dishes. We sent the laundry out when we wanted; they came and picked it up, no charge. Franklin: Really? McCormack: Well, yeah. They paid for things back then. We paid $35 a month for the prefab. And that was for all three of us. Franklin: Wow. McCormack: Yeah. And any time anything went wrong, the stove wasn’t working, the lights, we called the number and they came and fixed it, no charge. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty cheap living there. Franklin: Yeah, I was going to say, that sounds kind of nice. I don’t get that kind of service from my landlord. McCormack: No. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Franklin: So then in ‘56, you met your husband. Right, 1956? McCormack: No. I met him in 1950. I was here in ‘47 and he came in ‘50. Franklin: Oh, okay, sorry. You were married in ‘56. McCormack: ‘56, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did he also live in the dorms as well when you first got here? McCormack: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did you guys also meet in the Dorm Club? McCormack: Wel, that’s an interesting story, too. One night one of the fellas I knew called and said could we bring a fella up tonight? It’s his birthday. And I said, oh, sure. So in due time, three or four fellas went and rang the doorbell and marched in. Each one of them had a six-pack of beer on their shoulder. And so I didn’t drink beer, but the fellas did. And so one of them said, Jerry, show us how you can stand on your head on a beer can. And guess what? He did. [LAUGHTER] And then they left. And I never did really know who this guy was. He was just the guy that had the birthday. About, oh, gosh, it must’ve been a year or so later, another friend said, would you like to go skiing with us this weekend? And I said, sure, I’d like to. And we went out to Stevens Pass and we rented a cottage. It was one of those that had the real steep roof and the snow was up to here. So the guy said, let’s go tobogganing off the roof of the chalet or whatever you call it. We’d stand like we were on a big sled, and then somebody would give us a push. Well, I happened to be the one across the top. This guy came leaping up, and he missed with his foot and he hit me in the back of the head like this. Franklin: Oh, jeez. McCormack: Well, that was my husband. I knew who he was that time. [LAUGHTER] So that’s how we really met. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Oh, that’s funny. And Jerry was a chemical engineer? Right? McCormack: Yes, chemical. Franklin: So when you got married, then, you stopped working at Kadlec and-- McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: And became a full-time-- McCormack: Full-time. Franklin: Full-time mother and housekeeper, everything. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: And so then I must imagine you must’ve moved out of the prefab. And where did you--so this would’ve been ‘56, so you would’ve gone to another government-run house. McCormack: Yes, we did. We went to [unknown] house. It was clear across town from where I lived in the prefab. And we stayed there until, oh, about three or four years. And then moved into a--here again I forget its name. And then we decided--our third child was on the way by then, and we decided it was time to buy a house. There wasn’t much choice. We were looking for a special--Jerry wanted a basement and one other thing. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, there were very few houses on the market, but we finally found one that we liked that had what he wanted on it, honestly. He wanted a basement and four bedrooms. That was what it was. Franklin: Four bedrooms. And what was--the house you finally purchased, was it an Alphabet house, or was it newer construction? McCormack: It was a D house. Franklin: Oh, a D house. McCormack: Uh-huh. And they only made about six or seven of them. Franklin: Yeah, that’s not a very common one. McCormack: So that was why it was nice, because it had space and it was a prefab--it wasn’t a prefab, I mean. It was a government house, but it was bigger and a little bit better-built, I think. And we’re still in it. Franklin: Oh, wow. That’s great. I wondered if oyu could talk about the experience of going through the privatization of Richland, when the governement sold off Richland in ‘58, and how richland changed from being a government town to being a private town. McCormack: Well, you know, it happened gradually. The houses were sold, and I don’t know that there was a great deal of difference in the town, really, except that people were in the homes. Most of them who had bought the homes, they owned them istead. But then there was a lot of remodeling started, because you couldn’t do that until the house was in your own hands. But there was quite a bit of remodeling. In fact, the prefabs, it’s hard to find a prefab that hasn’t been remodeled. You know, there was 1, 2, 3, you know that. And it was hard to find just a little old one-bedroom one, like there were any of the prefabs. Franklin: Oh, sure, yeah, I live in a two-bedroom prefab, and it’s been extensively remodeled. Which makes sense. Jillian, who you met earlier, she lives in one that has been much less remodeled. It’s probably not original, but it’s much closer. And it’s very different. It feels like two totally different houses, even though they’re exactly the same size. From the outside, they look almost exactly the same. McCormack: Well, you understood why, when we got one, and only three or four single gals who had one, how much it meant to all the fellas to have a house to go to. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, yeah, I lived in dorms in college, and I imagine, gathered from your experience, sounds like the dorms here must’ve been a bit like college dorms. McCormacK: That’s an interesting, because my husband says, being in the dorms was like being in college with classes and with money. Franklin: I was going to say--because everybody has a job, so you can actually afford the beer. McCormack: Yeah. No classes and money. Franklin: Taht’s interesting. LIke grown-up dorms. For-- McCormack: Well, they still had rules and regulations, like no gals on the second floor, I guess. Franklin: Oh, sure. McCormack: I was going to say, I never was in one of them, but boys, as soon as they could, they got out and bought--or got into a prefab or something like that. By that time, they were starting to make a few buildings. A single man could get that. A single wouldn’t couldn’t, but they allowed to single men to get in. And if you had two men. And that was the first time for the fellas getting out of the dorms. Franklin: Yeah, it’s really interesting to hear at that time about a group fo single women living together, because the image of Richland then is such a family town, or of single people living in dorms. But three single women living together, do you know, did that ever cause a stir, or was anybody ever concerned about your safety or anything liek that? McCormack: well, it was a pretty safe town. [LAUGHTER] It really was. Yeah, pretty safe town. But there were some people--I know one couple got married and they couldn’t get a house and she came to me and said, why don’t you girls move back to the dorm and let us have the house? And I just looked at her. Are you kidding? But she was serious. Franklin: I bet she was, I bet she was. And so you raised three children in Richland. And what was that--do you think their childhood was different from your own, or--I mean, because Richland’s kind of a unique town in its--everybody kind of works in the same place and many of the houses are very similar, and I’m wondering if you could kind of contrast that with your own McCormack: Well, see, I--living here with three boys was--I don’t think there was anything really too different from, like, if I had my three kids in Virginia. They went to school a block away, and the church was not too far. It had a lot of advantages, really. You know, I’ve never thought about it that way. But they’re good kids, so I guess we raised them okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, yeah. Yeah. And so they all went to the local schools and everything, Columbia High--? McCormack: Yup. Yeah, we live right by, a block away from Jefferson. And tehy went there and then they went over to--what’s the one across the--junior high, and then Hanford. In fact, our oldest son was the second graduating class from Hanford. Franklin: Oh, from Hanford Hihg. Oh, so right over here by where we are today. McCormack: Yeah. But it was sixth grade and then two or three grades. I don’t know why I can’t remember. And then Hanford High. Franklni: Sure. Did Hanford’s role--because you knew what was being produced at Hanford when you came out to work for GE, right? McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Was its role in the Cold War ever--how did you feel about that, and did it ever concern you, having a family here, for your own safety, being so close to not only an area that produced plutonium, but also what might have been a target in case of hostilities between the United States and the Soviet Union? McCormack: Well, things were still pretty secret when I first came here. Of course I was at Oak Ridge, see, for a while. And the day I hired in was the day that peace was decided. So it was still pretty army-like. You had to get--are you familiar with Oak Ridge? Franklin: Not very. McCormack: Well, the whole area, the town and everything, is enclosed down there. And you had to go through a gate and show your pass, even for housewives. Well, here, it was different. Here the town was wide open. They couldn’t--you had to work for somebody here, but you weren’t enclosed in a fence or anything. Franklin: Sure, people from Kennewick could drive in and visit somebody from Richland and vice versa without having to go through anything. You couldn’t get out to the Site without-- McCormack: No, uh-unh. Franklin: --you had to have a bus. McCormack: You had to have the bus--the pass and everything to get out there. Franklin: Sure. Do you remember anything, any kind of civil defense measures, or did you ever have to practice evacuations or duck-and-cover, things like that? McCormack: Well, every now and then, the whistle would blow. But we never had to evacuate or do anything. BUt still, every now and then, they still ring that whistle on a certain day. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember President Kennedy’s visit in 1963? To dedicate the N Reactor? McCormack: Yes. Franklin: Did you go out to see him? McCormack: No, I didn’t get to. I had to stay with home with the three kids, and my neighbor went. Franklin: Oh, okay. McCormack: Yeah, I missed that. Franklin: Oh, sure. Were ther eany other events or incidents that happened at Hanford or in the Tri-Cities that stand out to you? McCormack: When they stold the houses, that was a big event? Franklin: Yeah? And you guys weren’t in your house long enough--were you on the priority list for the house that you lived in at that point? McCormack: The house we bought? Franklin: No, in 1958 when they sold the houses, were you the resident that could buy that house? McCormack: They had just said they were up for sale, and the people went over to see it were ready to sell it. By that time, they must’ve bought it themselves. And they were ready to sell it. They were moving on to another place. By that time, they were building houses out north, and they were building a new house out north. And we bought the house from them. Franklin: I’m wondering if--could you describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work at Kadlec? McCormack: Well, didn’t bother me, because I had a pass to go out there. But that was the only way I had one is because I had the [unknown] business. But you just didn’t go out there. You could go as far as the fence around ther,e but unless you had a pass, you just didn’t go. Franklin: Sure. McCormack: Like, there was one special time they opened it up for a day and the wife could go out to the Area. That’s the only time in all the years my husband worked that I was ever in his office. Franlkin: Really? McCormack: Mm-hmm, closed. Franklin: Yeah, sure. And do you remember when that was? McCormack: Give me a clue. [LAUGHTER] Jerry McCormack: I’m not sure. Around--maybe in the ‘80s. I don’t remember. Franklin: Oh, so much, much later. Jerry McCormack: Much later, yeah. Franklin: Okay, that’s really interesting. McCormack: But things were still tight that way. Franklin: Sure. Wow. That must’ve been interesting to see, finally, kind of where--to go out there and see where he’d been working for all those years. McCoramck: IT was. Yeah, it really was. I finally got there one time. Franklin: One time. Even though you had been here longer than he had. McCormack: Yeah. Well, I didn’t have any reason to be in his--that way. Franklin: Sure, oh yeah, of course. McCormack: So then they just made this very special day for the, whoever they wanted to to go out, and that was it. Franklin: Sure. Any other major events in Tri-Cities’ history, like some of the plants shutting down and kind of--do you remember that time as well from kind of the concern over what would happen in the late ‘80s when they shut N Reactor down? McCoramck: Well, I don’t think it was like ti was when I first came here. They really thought that this whole plant was just going to quit. When I got there, DuPont had been from the beginning was here, and it was so soon after that that we were still using some of DuPont’s stationery and stuff. I mean, that’s how close it was. They hadn’t even--General Electric hadn’t even been there long enough to get some paper in from us. So it was pretty early in the game when I came here. But I don’t remember any big catastrophic things happening. You think I’d remmeber these things, I suppose, because I’ve been here 70 years this month. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, tha’ts quite an anniversary. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Well, great, my last question is just what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? McCormack: What I would like for them to know? That we were concerned. Everybody was concerned. But we coped. Everything geared up. When I first came here, we’d have maybe, I don’t know, I’d say an average day of maybe 30 to 40 patients. Then all of the sudden, there was streams of men going out, lined up to get into x-ray. They were hiring as fast as they could. That was, I think, the big change. That was pretty soon after I came here. But since then--well, the talent’s grown so much, too. It’s hard for me to realize how small a town was when I first came here, because it’s grown so gradually over the years. We had, maybe, one or two grocery stoes, and one dress shop, and one barber shop and a couple other things, and that was it. If you wanted to go anywhere, you went to Pasco. Kennewick was only about--in fact, Richland was a little bit bigger than Kennewick. So that was where we went to shop, was Pasco. Franklin: Right, right. Because Pasco was the oldest town. McCormack: Yeah, and it was the big town. [LAUGHTER] Franklin; The big town. That’s so different. I guess now, they’re each so large that you wouldn’t really need to go to the other for any-- McCormack: No, each one has plenty of everything now. Franklin: Yeah. That’s really itneresting. I’ve only been here for a little bit, so I-- McCormack: How long? Franklin: Just about a year-and-a-half. McCormack: Well, you’ve got still a lot of things to learn around here, haven’t you? Franklin: Yeah, I do. McCormack: IT’s growing so fast, this town, that it’s just hard for me to realize it was this little three towns that I caem to 70 years ago. Franklin: Right. McCormack: That’s a long time. Franklin: Yeah, I bet, I mean, just the roads and everything are different. So, Margie, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t covered today? McCormack: Well, let’s see. The Dorm Club is what was probably the nicest thing that could’ve happened to us bunch of single people. Because we all got together and we partied and we went to plays, and we went all over. We were all pretty much the same age. And we all became friends, and a lot of us ended up marrying each other. I don’t know, I think I’d say, my life here, that little dorm club is the thing that made me want to stay here. Franklin: Kind of like a family away from home. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Because most of the people in that--almost everyone in tat club was not from the area, right? You were all from all over the country. McCormack: Well, he--my husband--being the Washingtonian was the odd one. Everybody else was from somewhere else. Franklin: Right, kind of scattered across the US. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. That sounds--especially, too, in a town where there weren’t--no one had any grandparents or any real relatives here to speak of, right? Even just the families had their own family unit. McCormack: Well, you had to--they just didn’t allow anybody in. And I supposed if you had a house, married and had a house, and had a mother to come live here, but that was different. But we single people, we were here on our own. Franklin: Right. So the Dorm Club really kind of would’ve een your lifeline. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: You know, to some kind of normal life. McCormack: Well, I loved the West. I grew up in the mountains, and I loved the wide open spaces. And that and the Dorm Club were what kept me here. Franklin: Interesting. Well, great, Margie, it’s been really wonderful to talk to you and hear your story, your experiences. I just want to thank you for coming out here and talking to us today. McCormack: Well, I appreciate the offer and I enjoyed it, too. And hope I gave you a few little insights as to what our life was like here in the big city of Richland. Franklni: The big city of Richland. Yeah, I think, just hearing about being a single person and a single woman in Richland is really interesting and kind of a differetn stories than a lot of the other oral histories. McCormack: Yeah, well, you know if I’d gone to the place in Texas was a city, it woudl’ve taken me forever to make the friends I made here overnight. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah, that close proximity and that close--well, that’s great. Well, Margie, thank you so very much. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:44:23 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9986 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Kadlec Dorm Club N Reactor General Electric Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marjorie Ann McCormack Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Margie talks about her involvement with Atomic Energy / National Labs, and Kadlec. She fondly remembers the Dorm Club. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/27/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. atomic energy dorm club GE kadlec N Reactor https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe4fc1a4c7495942bf447756ec5e85cfa.JPG d98e592b247db687cb3749711ea3df5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Jensen Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. To start us off, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Mark Jensen: My name is Mark Jensen, M-A-R-K, J-E-N-S-E-N. O’Reagan: Great. Okay. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Jensen on March 25th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Mr. Jensen about his experiences working at the Hanford site and living in the Tri-Cities. To start us off, can you tell us a little bit about your life before you came to Hanford? Jensen: Well, my mother moved to Richland to teach English at what was then Columbia High School, now Richland High School. She was a single mother with five children. So I started school at Jefferson Elementary in Richland in kindergarten. When I was in third grade, my mother remarried, and I was adopted by my new father. He was a long-time Hanford worker. Anyway, so I grew up in the Tri-Cities. We moved to Kennewick when I went into fourth grade, and I went through the Kennewick School District after that, and graduated from Kamiakin High School in 1974. Went to Washington State University, got a degree in forestry, thinking that would get me out of the Tri-Cities, because there aren’t any forests here. Unfortunately, there weren’t any jobs in forestry. So I came back home to live with my parents, and my dad mentioned that N Reactor was hiring reactor operators. So I applied, and got a job as a reactor operator. O’Reagan: What time frame would it have been that your mother moved here? Jensen: I was five, so that would have been 1961. O’Reagan: Okay, great. Can you tell us about the schooling, the education, the schools in the Tri-Cities as you experienced them? Jensen: Well, I went to Jefferson Elementary, like kindergarten through third grade. It was in an old building left over from World War II. It was probably a grade school built as part of the Manhattan Project. That’s all long since been torn down. Then when we moved to Kennewick, I went to Hawthorne Elementary school there. Building’s still there as far as I know. And then to Vista Elementary, then to Highlands Middle School—Highlands Junior High in those days. Then the Kamiakin High School which was brand new. O’Reagan: What was life like as a kid in Kennewick? Jensen: It was pretty routine, I guess. Went outside and played in those days instead of staying inside for video games. It didn’t matter how hot it was outside, we’d go out and play baseball all day usually, and things like that. Then just going to school during the school year and doing whatever during the summer. When I was growing up, before my mother remarried, she would work in the summer and I was usually babysat by some of her students. After she remarried, then she stopped working during the summer. But I’m fairly certain that one of the reactor operators I worked with at N Reactor was one of my babysitters when I was second or third grade. But anyway. O’Reagan: When you were sort of a teenager, what sort of stuff did you and your friends do for fun around the area? Jensen: Usually, after doing our homework, we’d go outside and play basketball, every day, every night. We had a lighted basketball court. We’d play basketball all day Saturday and Sunday. When the weather was nicer, we’d play baseball or variants of baseball, since there were seldom enough people to make up a couple of teams. We used to go to baseball games—minor league baseball games—in the summer. A variety of different team names. There was a stadium in Kennewick called Sanders Jacobs Field that’s long since been demolished. That’s pretty much what we did, just mess around. Go bowling, things like that. O’Reagan: Do you know what your step-father did at the Hanford site? Jensen: He was a chemical engineer, and he worked at N Reactor and the older reactors designing systems for decontaminating the reactors. When I was in high school, he worked at the Tank Farms in the 200 Area. He was in charge of Tank Farm surveillance, and that was when the tanks started leaking—the older tanks first started leaking. So we got frequent telephone calls in the middle of the night that there was a leaking tank. Sometimes I’d hear my dad say something on the telephone, and the next day I would see that in the newspaper, as a Hanford spokesman said, kind of thing. That was kind of interesting. O’Reagan: So I guess you were aware of the future environmental issues pretty early on? Jensen: Yes. Yeah. O’Reagan: Did that impact your life at all? Or was it sort of in the background? Jensen: It’s just the way things were. O’Reagan: So when you came back and were looking for a job and you first heard about this job at N Reactor, did you—was that something you were sort of excited about? Was it something you were--? Jensen: It sounded interesting. I knew nothing about it. Not too many people knew reactor operators, although there were certainly plenty of them around here over the years. So I had no idea, really, what that job entailed. But it was a job, and it paid pretty good. So when it was offered to me, I accepted it. O’Reagan: What kind of skill sets did it end up requiring you to gain? Jensen: I had to learn a lot about how to operate complex systems, do valving in a precise, controlled manner so it was done correctly. Not so much working with pumps, other than checking to make sure they were running properly. I didn’t have to do maintenance kind of things. Then once I got my certification in the control room, I had to learn how to operate all of the systems, use the controls in the control room to do that, set everything up properly, and what to do in case of an emergency, or a reactor scram, or upset. Try and keep the reactor from scramming, things like that. O’Reagan: What kind of training was involved? Jensen: We started out, once we got into the certification program, we went into what we called phase one training. That basically started off with fundamentals training. We got some math and chemistry. Didn’t hurt that I had chemistry in college. It’s kind of funny—the week or two weeks we had in chemistry, I think I learned more than the two semesters of chemistry in college, because the instructor was so much better for the fundamentals class than the professor I had at college. But it might have also been because I was older and a little more mature. O’Reagan: Was that onsite at Hanford? Jensen: It was onsite at Hanford, out at N Reactor. We had some chemistry, math, a little bit of electronics, things like that. Started learning some of the various systems at the plant. Then we went back on shift for several months. I can’t remember now how long, I mean this is almost 40 years ago, so it’s kind of hard to remember everything. So when we went back on shift, we were given a packet of stuff that we had to study on our own and learn while we were assigned to do other jobs throughout the plant. Then we went back into class, into phase two, and studied more systems, and started learning how things in the control room worked. I can’t remember if there were four phases or three phases, but each time after a phase ended, we had an exit exam. Then we went back to shift, with more stuff to do in between the regular job stuff. At the end of all of the phases, we took an eight-hour written exam. Theoretically, if you failed the written exam, they could fire you. Or they could just reassign you as a non-certified operator. Some people did that after they failed. They just said they didn’t want to continue. But generally they gave you a second chance. Well, I passed the first time, so didn’t have to worry about that. O’Reagan: How long did that process take? Jensen: Started probably in February or March of ’81. I was completely certified in June of ’82. So it was probably about a year and a half for the total process. But they were in a hurry to get people certified, because there were a lot of older operators who were getting ready to retire. So they needed to get people in there and get some experience before they lost too many of the older, experienced operators. So after the eight-hour written exam, we had to study for what we called the demonstration exam. That was in the control room, and an instructor would say, okay, Mark, how do you set this console up for operation? You are going to do this job, show me without actually doing it--because it was in the real reactor—how you would do it. Later on, we had a simulator that was pretty much an exact duplicate of the reactor, and then you could actually do the things in the simulator. But for my demonstration exam, it was just point out what you would do. When we passed that exam, we actually got a pay raise. We went from what we called a Grade 18 to a Grade 21, and got a nice little bump in pay. Then you studied for your oral exam. That one, you went before an oral board. There was a representative from operations, a representative from training, and a representative from nuclear safety. They all had a certain set of questions to ask, and any one of them could come in at any time with follow-up questions. So that—I think that took me six hours. And I passed that, so then I was a certified operator. Except that operations would not sign your certificate until you demonstrated that you could handle the jobs. So when I went back on shift, I was assigned to an experienced operator. So we rotated through various positions in the control room, and I followed him around. Initially, he would do things and tell me what he was doing. Then he would have me do it, but he would tell me what to do. And then when he was pretty satisfied I knew what I was doing, he would just sit back and let me figure out what I was doing. And then he must have told the control room supervisor I was ready, control room supervisor told the shift manager I was ready, and the shift manager recommended that my certificate be signed by the manager of operations. Then I could sit on consoles all by myself. O’Reagan: So was there an influx of younger operators at that point? Jensen: Yes, we had quite a few coming through. My certification class, we had three supervisor candidates, and I think we had seven operator candidates. One of them ended up not completing it. All of the rest passed. Some of them, it took them a couple attempts at the eight hour and maybe even the oral board to get certified. Then right after me, there was another class with a lot of other young people. So we got a lot of young people in there, and then that allowed some of the older operators to retire. I think some of them were hanging around a little longer than they might have wanted to otherwise, just because they knew they would have been shorthanded if they left. O’Reagan: Was this all at N Reactor? Jensen: Yes. O’Reagan: Was it the same training program for all the reactors? Jensen: Well, N Reactor was the only reactor left at the time. They had similar programs at the older reactors. But it evolved over time and got a little more detailed. We had a little more stuff on reactor physics. In the original days, it’s just, this is what you’re going to do, and nobody asked why, because it was all secret. It’s just, do this and keep this needle within this range, or whatever. Later on, you actually started to teach people what was happening. Some of the old operators complained about having some reactor physics stuff in there. Wah, we don’t need this stuff. And they were so good that it’s like, I don’t know that they really did need that. They just knew what to do when something went wrong. But the theory is it never hurts to have too much knowledge. O’Reagan: How many people were working at a given time in the actual reactor? Jensen: In the control room, or—? O’Reagan: That, and also— Jensen: It’s easier for me to say in the control room, but I’ll estimate on the other. O’Reagan: Sure. Jensen: Minimal shift in the control room was three operators and a control room supervisor, but we generally had four. There were three positions that had to be manned 24 hours a day when the reactor was operating. One of them, the nuclear console, where you actually controlled the reactor power level, we rotated two people in and out on that: two hours on and two hours off. If you only had three, then, I think the control room supervisor could give you relief. But you weren’t allowed to be there for more than two hours at a time. The other two consoles, you could be there for the whole eight hours on a shift. After my class and the next one went through, they had enough operators that we could get six or more operators in there, which gave a lot more flexibility, both for giving breaks to people, because it can get hard to keep your focus all night long, particularly on graveyard shift, when the reactor ran itself, pretty much. You’re just looking at things to make sure everything’s normal. That gets hard to do. It doesn’t sound like it would be, but it is. It’s pretty—puts a strain on you. So we had more people to give breaks. And extra certified operators to go out throughout the plant and check things, because they could recognize problems that non-certified operators might not. So, let’s say six of us in the control room, a control room supervisor, a shift manager. They were both certified control room shift manager/operators also. So they could do anything in the control room we could. And on a typical shift, you usually had a couple of electricians, a couple of instrument technicians, three or four health physics technicians—radiological control technicians—we called them radiation monitors in those days. Plus supervisors for all of them. And maybe a handful of millwrights, pipefitters, whatever. Mostly, the maintenance people did their work when the reactor was shut down. There wasn’t very much for them to do when the reactor was operating. But there was always work for instrument technicians. They would come in, and if something wasn’t working right in the control room, we’d call them in and they would tinker with it and try to fix it. Things like that. Day shift, there were a lot more people on there. And then during a reactor outage, much more work going on, particularly or the maintenance people. Because that’s when they were tear pumps down and rebuild them and things like that. So there were probably, on days, a couple hundred people out there. On shift, maybe thirty. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. So you’ve sort of been doing this, but could you walk us through a day in the life? What would sort of your average day involve? Jensen: Okay. I’d come to work in the morning, a little bit before eight. And if I were assigned to the control room, I would go in and receive a turnover from the operator whose console I was taking over. We had a schedule that rotated us through. So if you’re one or two, you’re on the nuclear console. If you’re three, you’re on the double-A console. If you’re number four, you’re on the BN console, and I do not know what BN stands for. We used to joke that it was short for boring, because it was the most boring of the three consoles when we were at full power. So if I’m going to be on the nuclear console, I’d come in and there’s an operator who’s ready to leave. He gives me a turnover, tells me what the power level is, if we’re going to be raising power, if we’re at full power, we’re just going to hold power, if there’s any areas of the reactor that seem to want to lose power or gain power. So I get the turnover and then I take over. If I was on the nuclear console, I would work for two hours, and the other operator would come in, and I would give him a turnover and he would take over. And then I would usually give breaks to the other operators, unless we had enough other people to give them breaks. Anytime you take over, you’d get a turnover for what’s going on. Worked the nuclear console for two days, then you’d go to the double-A console. The double-A console controlled the reactor pressure and the primary coolant pump speed, and sending steam to the Washington Public Power Supply System. So you had this big console, went around like this and like this, and there were separate sections for each of the steam generator cells. We had six—five operating at any one time. Occasionally we ran with four operating. We never did all six. There was a reason why; I can’t remember what the reason why was. But always had one in reserve. That one was a pretty busy console during startups and shutdowns. I had full power. It was look around, look at all of the drive turbines for the primary coolant pumps and make sure they’re running at the proper RPM, look at the pressurizer level and make sure it’s at 23 feet. Got very busy on a reactor scram—lots of stuff to do there. And after the day on the double-A console, we went to the BN console. That monitored the secondary coolant system, so we had water coming back from the Washington Public Power Supply System. We sent them steam, they sent back condensate to us. Then we had a secondary system to maintain the pressure of the main steam header. So we had to watch that, plus we had to watch the rupture monitor system, which would check the radiation levels in the coolant water outlet from the reactor tubes. There were 1,003 tubes with fuel in them. The system would compare the radiation level between two adjacent tubes, and if one of them was higher than the other, a red light would come on on this panel. Then you’d go over and push the button to reset it. They’re coming on and off all the time. But if we had a rupture, that meant there was a leak in the cladding on the fuel. Usually, it was a little small pinhole; sometimes—and I never saw this—the welded-on endcap would blow off. Uranium, normally, is not very soluble in water, but when the water’s really hot, then it’s really soluble. And we’re running at 600 degrees or so for the coolant water. So if you had a rupture, you could start dissolving the uranium very rapidly. That’s got all of the fission products in it from the uranium atoms that have split, which are highly radioactive. So you could completely contaminate the primary coolant loop. So you needed to catch a rupture before it progressed too far. That was a frustrating job because those lights are coming on and off all the time. You got to look at those, and it was kind of a bad design, because that panel was here, the other panel was over there, and you had to keep looking back and forth. So that’s why we’d call it the boring console. It was pretty boring at full power. A lot of work there, again, on a reactor startup. We had to set things up to control the main steam header pressure, and that was a lot of work. So it was kind of fun, then. But full power, it was kind of boring. After we cycled through, if we had more than four operators, then we’d have two days where we’re—you could either study, because we always had to maintain our certification, and we had quarterly requalification classes and every two years we had to recertify. Or you could just be assigned to go out in the plant and do various jobs, help out—if it’s needed somewhere, help out some of the operators who were still studying to be certified operators, help train them, things like that. And then you just kept rotating through that. If we had an outage, we only had two places manned in the control room. One was the double-A console, and the other one was the communications console. So you kept contact with everybody throughout the plant, and made PA announcements if need be. Just let people know what’s going on. If we were in charge/discharge operations, you might be assigned to work on the charge or discharge elevator, to set it up for refueling the reactor. Or just—if it’s not a charge/discharge outage or we’re already done with that, you might be going in the rod rooms and doing some valving to assist the millwrights who might be repairing control rod issues and things like that. O’Reagan: I saw you had some pictures there. Could you walk us through some of what those are? Jensen: Yeah. Here is a picture. I found this online in the Hanford system a while back, and I was really surprised. That’s me, and I don’t remember posing for this picture. But I am on the charge elevator here. This is the wall, and it’s opposite the reactor and it’s a shield wall and each of these things here are plugs. You can open one up on the elevator side and on the other side, there was a really large elevator called the W work elevator. It actually came off a World War II aircraft carrier for lifting airplanes up to the flight deck. They could pull a plug out there, and they would run a tube through this penetration. Then you would mate it up with the process tube in the reactor. That’s how you refueled. They must have had a photographer up there taking pictures to show other people what goes on there. That was my assignment, and so I obviously posed for this picture, but like I say, I don’t remember doing this at all. O’Reagan: Is that your usual outfit when you were working? Jensen: Yes. Those are called anti-C clothes, or—original Hanford terminology was SWP clothing, for Special Work Procedure. During World War II, you didn’t want to say that this was to protect against contamination, because this is all secret what we’re doing. So you’re doing a special work procedure, so you have to wear the special work procedure clothes. O’Reagan: So that’s a second pair of gloves there? Jensen: Yeah. I would be wearing two pairs of coveralls, a hood, two pairs of gloves and some rubber shoes. And underneath the rubber shoes there’s some canvas booties. So this is not a real high contamination job. If we were actually refueling the reactor, I’d be wearing plastic raingear over that. We used to wear a face shield to keep water out of our face. Later on, we had a hood with a blower unit that provided air so we didn’t suffocate, and that kept water off our face. So that’s about as good as I could get on the elevator. This picture was taken of our crew in the control room. We had started a straight day shift crew. It was so we had more time for training. We worked Monday through Thursday in the control room, and every Friday we had training. And the rotating shifts, when they came in on days, they worked Friday, Saturday and Sunday in the control room, and then during the week they had training. We formed up this brand new shift. They let it out by seniority, and there weren’t that many people who wanted to do it. Some people, strangely enough, really liked shiftwork. So I managed to get on the first crew. And on our very first day working together as a crew, we had what we call a WPPSS turbine trip—the Washington Public Power Supply System bought our steam, and they had two turbines, and one of their turbines tripped. That had happened before, and the reactor had never managed to ride through that without scramming. Well, we kept the reactor from scramming. And I was on this console here—this is the nuclear console. I was controlling the reactor power level. When their turbine dropped off, the main steam header pressure goes up. This is getting a little technical, but— O’Reagan: No, that’s great. Jensen: The main steam pressure goes up high. That sits on top of the steam generators. When the pressure’s high, water doesn’t boil as easily. And when water boils, you get heat exchange. So we are sending hotter water back through the reactor. That is not as good a moderator as the cooler water. So the reactor power went down very fast. So I had to start pulling control rods to make up for that. In low-enriched reactors, like any of the Hanford reactors, when you lose power rapidly, you start building up a fission product called xenon which is a neutron poison. It absorbs neutrons better than anything else. At equilibrium power, we’re making xenon at a certain rate, and it’s destroyed as soon as it’s made by absorbing neutrons. So the net amount of it in the reactor is zero. But if we lose power, we’re still producing it for several hours at the old rate. But we don’t have as many neutrons in there, so the reactor power will go down and it will just make it worse. So you have to pull rods very fast. So that’s what I had to do. My part was to keep the reactor from going down so far that the xenon would take it all the way down. The other operators were working to keep the main steam header pressure from going up too high, because we had a scram trip on that, because you didn’t want to rupture the steam header. The people controlling the primary coolant loop pressure had to do work on that. It was very exciting. But we survived it, and so they took this picture as a commemoration. One of the people involved was on the nuclear console when they took the picture and he didn’t want to be in the picture. So he’s not in there. But I like this, because if you know what you’re looking at, you can actually see that the reactor’s operating. There’s some indications there that the reactor’s at its 4,000 megawatt power level. And it’s one of the few pictures I’ve ever seen where you can tell the reactor was operating. Then, almost a year later, the exact same thing happened again, and I was in the same place. It was really easy the second time, because I knew exactly what to do. So they took a picture again, for all of us. This is the double-A console. Kept these all these years. As long as I’ve got these up here, this is an aerial photo of the N Reactor complex. Let me see. This is the reactor building right here. Make sure I’m not looking at things backwards. This building over here is the Washington Public Power Supply System. You can kind of see over here there’s some lines that go over, and those are the steam lines going over to them. They bought the steam from us and then sent the condensate back after they ran it through their turbines. O’Reagan: How much did you have to communicate with them? Jensen: Frequently. We called them up--any time we were going to do something that might affect the power level, we would call them up, tell them we’re going to do that. If they were going to do something that might affect the condensate coming back, they would let us know. They would give us some numbers. From there, power generation, which we would compile into a daily report, I think that was the basis for how much money they paid us for the steam. Things like that. So we were in constant contact with them. Usually it was the operator on the double-A console who would communicate with the—we called them Whoops in those days. They didn’t like being called Whoops. Now it’s Energy Northwest. But that’s a habit that’s hard to break. I still want to call them Whoops. And we didn’t mean it anything derogatory in those days, but— O’Reagan: When you said that the turbine tripped, would that seize it up? What does that involve? Jensen: I’m not really sure why it tripped. They may have had some valves—steam admittance valves close or something. If they told us why it tripped at the time, I can’t remember. This was 1987 or so. So it was quite a while—almost 30 years ago. The second trip—not sure if it was the same cause or not. I know one time they had a turbine trip and we didn’t survive that one. [LAUGHTER] It was kind of funny. Somebody was sweeping in their control room, and the broom fell and hit a switch and caused the turbine to trip off. So on that reactor outage, they paid for everything we did to get the reactor back up. We had a special charge code. Because it was their fault, so they’re paying for it. O’Reagan: That would, I guess, give the reactor xenon poisoning and they couldn’t start up for a certain amount of time? Jensen: Yes. If we scrammed from full power, theoretically, you could pull control rods almost immediately and override the xenon building up. But we had a mandated one-hour hold if we scrammed from full power. And that’s so that you will make sure it wasn’t a spurious scram. If it’s something that’s actually not working correctly, so it would be unsafe to operate, you can figure that out. And by doing that—waiting that one hour, it gets impossible to start the reactor up. So our minimum downtime from full power was generally about 23 hours—23 to 24 hours. If we could figure out what the problem was and get it fixed, then we started up the next day. If I was something serious, it might take a few more days, or several days, to figure out what the problem is or correct the problem. And then when we started up, it was kind of interesting, because we had the control rods pulled almost completely out of the reactor before the reactor went critical. And then as the power goes up, you’re pushing control rods in, rather than pulling them out to raise power, until you get to a point—it’s called xenon turnaround—where you’ve burned up all of the xenon that was in the reactor, and now the reactor’s making more of the xenon and then they start coming back out. So those were actually really fun. O’Reagan: How often did the reactor scram? Jensen: N Reactor was getting kind of old by the time I was there. Some of the equipment was really old, old technology, and getting a little hard to maintain. We usually had two or three scrams in a particular operating run. I’m not really sure how many, because, again, it’s been so long. We would typically operate for a month. And we were in plutonium weapons-grade production mode, and so we only operated for a month, and then we would shut down and about a third of the reactor. But it was unusual to go an entire cycle without at least one scram. And usually they were spurious ones. The ones that caused a lot of them were the flow monitor system, which was a pretty old system. If somebody slammed a door or something somewhere, the instruments would vibrate, and it would give a false indication of low flow, and the reactor would scram. It only took one of the 1,003 flow monitor devices to cause a reactor scram. So that was kind of touchy there. O’Reagan: And that was automated? Jensen: Yeah, it was automated. You had this big panel with all these 1,003 dials. Normally, we never changed them. If we swapped steam generator cells out—like cell five was out for years until it got re-tubed, and then we put that one in and took another one out so they could re-tube that one. And we had to adjust all of those dials. Oh, that was a boring job—get them all set exactly right, and then somebody has to go through and check them all. If we ran in that mode with that same balance of steam generators, we didn’t have to do that every startup. O’Reagan: In the pictures with the other operators, could you just tell us about one or two of the other folks you were working with? Jensen: Okay. This is Dennis Real. Hopefully he won’t mind that I mentioned his name. He still works at Hanford. He started a little bit before me. This gentleman is Bill Terhark. He was a very, very experienced operator. He was one of the ones that you really wanted to have in the control room when things went bad, because he knew what to do all the time. He had so much experience. He went back to the 1950s, operating—probably operated at every one of the reactors. This is Fred Butcher, Jr. His dad had also been a reactor operator, Fred Butcher, Sr. And that’s me, and this is our control room supervisor, Glen Buckley. O’Reagan: Do you know anything about their backgrounds? Were they also—I guess the one who had most experience probably trained in reactors, but were they all engineers mostly? Jensen: No, no. Dennis had been a paramedic or EMT before he started working at the reactor. I’m not sure about Fred, what he did. Bill had graduated from high school, joined the Air Force, came out of the Air Force, got a job at Hanford. Typically, in the ‘40s and ‘50s, they did not hire engineers to be—and I don’t know what Glen’s job was—or what his background was, before. Most of us, except the older operators had college of some sort or another. When I hired on, they were hiring people usually with a couple years or more of college. O’Reagan: So you were there through the end of N Reactor, is that right? Jensen: Yes. In 1987—well, 1986—I think it was in April, was the Chernobyl accident. Chernobyl, although really was not similar at all to N Reactor, everybody thought it was, because both reactors are moderated by graphite instead of light-water. So everybody looked at graphite—that must be the cause of why Chernobyl blew up. Well, it blew up because it was a really poor design, and it was poorly operated, and they had a really unusual transient situation and then they had a steam explosion that tore the reactor apart. Well, we decided we would make some safety upgrades. They decided we’re going to shut down on January 7th, 1987. Six months of safety upgrades, then we’d start back up. Well, we pretty much knew we were never going to start back up again. They did do all the safety upgrades, spent millions of dollars on them, but—anyway, so we came in on January 7th knowing that this is probably the last day of operation for the reactor, and it was our job to shut it down. I was on the double-A console that day. It would have been nice if I had been on the nuclear console, to be the guy actually putting the rods in, but that was Dennis. So we shut the reactor down. Took about an hour. We still had fuel in the reactor for a good almost two years before we defueled the reactor. Because we were going to start up again. And then finally they said, no, we’re going to defuel the reactor and we’ll go on wet layup. So we still had water pumping through the pipes, keep everything wet. Because if you let it drain of water and then it’s damp in there, then things will start to rust. But if you have water flowing through there, that wouldn’t happen. So we went for a few months where we kept all of the pumps running and stuff like that, but no fuel in the reactor. And then they said, well, now we’re going to go into dry layup. So we drained the primary coolant loop and all the other systems, and then we had big fans blowing hot air through there to keep moisture from condensing in there. The thought was, maybe we’ll get the order to start up again. And then they just said, nope. Pulling the plug. Reactor is abandoned, and it’ll go into decontamination and decommissioning. And it’s essentially been torn down now, and what’s left of it—the reactor block itself—is all cocooned. Just like most of the other old reactors. O’Reagan: What happened to your and the other reactor operators’ careers at that point? Jensen: [SIGH] Well, that was kind of a scary time. People thought we’re going to get laid off. Some people quit and went back to school. I remember one guy went to school and got a doctor’s degree in optometry and became an optometrist. There was some programs to help people with that, some money to help people go to college and get something else. Some people just found other jobs and left. And then I ended up staying. I was getting bored with being an operator at a reactor that wasn’t operating, and there wasn’t even any fuel in the reactor. But we still had all the stored fuel, and they needed somebody to be what they called the criticality safety representative, to work with operations and with the criticality safety analyst to make sure we’re still storing that fuel safely, so we don’t have any inadvertent criticality accident. Not very likely, but it could conceivably still happen. So I got that job, and in addition to that I was doing other stuff that you would call nuclear safety work. So I ended up becoming, to all intents and purposes, a nuclear safety engineer, even though I don’t have an engineering degree. And I’ve been doing that ever since. O’Reagan: Who is that, technically, that you were working for at that point? Was it Battelle? Jensen: No. Initially I worked for UNC Nuclear Industries. That was UNC parts stands for United Nuclear Corporation. They had the contract to run the reactors. In those days, Rockwell ran the 200 Areas for the Tank Farms and stuff like that, and the processing plants. So they ran the PUREX Plant that was extracting plutonium from our fuel. Battelle operates the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, and that does research and design. Right after we shut down, DoE announced that they were going to consolidate all of the contracts. Westinghouse got that contract, so I worked for Westinghouse at the time I got into nuclear safety. Westinghouse went through a contract period and then a renewal period, and DoE typically does not renew anybody’s contract—nowadays anyway—more than once. So Westinghouse left, and then they announced a bid for a new contract. The Fluor Corporation won that one, and so I worked for Fluor for several years. They went through—I think they went through two and a half. DoE gave them an extension on the second done until they could get everything in place. And then the contract was won by the CH2M Hill Company, and that’s who I work for now. O’Reagan: Does it make much difference when one becomes— Jensen: WE used to joke the only difference it makes is in the color of the paycheck. It makes a little bit of difference, because you get some upper management coming in, and they have different ideas on how things should be done. We all joke that we have to educate them on how things actually are done. That’s only half-joking because it’s different than anything else. Fluor had some subcontractors who had never done work for Department of Energy before. So they wanted to do things the way you do it in the commercial nuclear industry. And it’s like, you don’t get to do it that way—you do it the way DoE tells you to do it. So we kind of had to educate them. But it’s a little bit different. There’s a little bit of different philosophy every time. O’Reagan: Was there ever any kind of either interest or communication with the commercial sector, in terms of learning or teaching any particular things? Jensen: We did a little bit. I cannot remember the name of the organization, but it’s an organization that compiles knowledge from commercial nuclear reactors all over the country, and the disseminates that to help everybody. We had some people who would go to meetings there, so I guess we became a member of this group. I never was involved in that, but—So we would hear things that happened at other plants and then see if there were some lessons learned that we could apply. But N Reactor was so different than a commercial reactor that sometimes things that happened at N Reactor, they wouldn’t be able to use at a commercial reactor and vice versa. O’Reagan: How secretive was your work? Jensen: Not much. There were a few things—security stuff was classified. But what we were doing was no longer secret, hadn’t been secret since 1945. I had to have a clearance—it was a secret level clearance. Mostly that was just to make sure I was trustworthy and wouldn’t sabotage the plant or something. Very rarely did I actually see any information that was classified secret. O’Reagan: I would assume, though, that the plutonium itself—I guess you didn’t see the plutonium until it got through the PUREX Plant? Jensen: Yeah, well I never saw it. I’ve never seen plutonium. All of that stuff—how it was handled, how it was stored—that’s all part of the security thing, and that was all classified. And would still be, to this day, except we don’t have any plutonium at Hanford—not in any discrete form that you can do anything with, anyway. O’Reagan: So what is it you’re doing again? Could you give us more detail on what you’re doing or what you did subsequent to being a reactor operator? Jensen: I worked in nuclear and criticality safety for N Reactor until we shipped all of the fuel over to the fuel storage basins at the K East and K West Reactors and I moved over there. I worked in criticality safety for that. When they were storing the fuel, that was fairly easy, because they weren’t doing anything. Then they decided they needed to get the fuel out of the basins because they’re close to the river, and the K East Basin had leaked at least once and maybe twice in the past. So the contaminated water gets into the groundwater and eventually gets out to the river. So we needed to get the fuel off the river, so they built a storage facility in the 200 East Area. We had to build a whole system to take the fuel out of the basin and put it in shielded casks and ship it over thee. So there was a lot of work on that, and all of that had to be set up to prevent criticalities. And also nuclear safety, which is more concerned with releases of radiological stuff to the atmosphere. So you need to keep those releases down below certain guidelines that DoE provides to protect the public. O’Reagan: So was this at all part of this amelioration cleanup efforts at that point? Jensen: Yeah, that’s the whole goal that we’re working towards: get all of the fuel out of the reactor basins. So we got it all out of the K East Basin first, and then that’s actually been destroyed—the basin has been completely dug up and destroyed, and the area backfilled. The reactor’s prepared for cocooning, but hasn’t been, because they ran out of funding. So it’s in a safe, stable condition right now. K West Basin is empty of fuel, but it has sludge. I still do some work for 100 K, although mostly I work at the Plutonium Finishing Plant now. They’re going to move all the sludge out, and then they’ll do the same thing to the K West Basin that they did at K East. And basically, all over Hanford, that’s what they’re doing is cleaning things out, and getting them ready for demolition. So I work at PFP now in nuclear criticality safety there, and they’ve got miles and miles of ductwork. Some big pipes and some little pipes that are all contaminated with plutonium, and they have to carefully take all that stuff out. Get enough of that out so they can actually start tearing the building down. O’Reagan: Are there any general ways, whether it’s the type of people working there, or morale, or whatever, that the work at the Hanford site has changed over the time you’ve been there? Jensen: [SIGH] During the operating days, it was fun. Actually fun to go to work and do something that you thought was productive. I mean, you can argue whether you thought we should have been making plutonium for nuclear weapons or not, but the job was very interesting. When the reactor shut down, the morale went down quite a bit, because, for one, people thought they were going to lose their jobs, and two, it’s like, well, even if we stay here for decommissioning, that’s not going to be anywhere near as interesting. And it isn’t. It has its own interesting aspects to it. But mostly, people are pretty professional and here’s a job, we’re going to get all of the fuel out of K East. So people went and worked on that, and we’re going to get all the fuel out of K West, so you work on that. While you’re doing that, it’s satisfying, because you’ve got a goal to work for. PFP—it’s a very difficult job. I think the morale kind of goes up and down. We have successes and then there’s problems you run into. But in a way that’s what makes a job interesting, if there’s problems that you can resolve and get through it, and then you succeed on this task and go onto the next one. But it was a lot more fun to operate than to do what we’re doing now. O’Reagan: How much longer would you guess we’re going to be doing this--? Jensen: I, personally, or Hanford? O’Reagan: Both, why not? Jensen: Well, PFP is supposed to be torn down. It was supposed to be torn down by the end of September this year, but it’s probably going to be about a year off from that. The K Basin—K West Basin has sludge in it. They’re probably going to start removing the sludge in about two years. That’ll probably take about a year to do that and then they’ll start tearing that basin down. There’s still a huge project called Groundwater, where they’re pumping contaminated water, and it’s not just radioactive contamination, there’s a lot of heavy metal contamination in Groundwater. They pump that out, and they run it through processes to take the, like, chromium out of the water and replace it with a type of chromium that’s not as environmentally damaging. That’ll go on for years and years. And then there’s still—all of the old processing canyons are still there in place, and all of those are going to have to be torn down at some point. So, it’s probably decades more work here. And then there’s all the tanks. They’re going to take all the waste out of the tanks and run it through the Vit Plant which isn’t done yet. So years of work left at Hanford. O’Reagan: Interesting. Were you ever interested in the sort of politics of Hanford? Jensen: Not too much. The politics were different. In the ‘80s, it was whether we should be making weapons-grade plutonium or not. Nowadays the politics is more like, which project do we rob from to give to somebody else? And political battles in Congress as to how much funding Hanford gets, and things like that. So I try and stay out of all of that. O’Reagan: Sure. So how about life outside of the work plant? Where were you living—still in Kennewick? Jensen: Yes, I’ve been living in Kennewick since I moved there as a kid in 1965. O’Reagan: Where in Kennewick? Jensen: It’s over near Highway 395 as it kind of cuts through the middle of Kennewick. O’Reagan: How has life in the Tri-Cities changed in the time you’ve— Jensen: The Tri-Cities is a lot bigger. It was pretty small when I first moved here. For several years, it was just slowly growing, and it’s been growing like crazy since. It’s like, they’re always building new schools, and there’s always housing developments under construction. There used to be a lot of orchards in Kennewick, all around. There’s hardly anything now, because they’ve all been cut down and there’s houses there now. Traffic’s a lot worse. O’Reagan: What do you do in your spare time? Any hobbies or--? Jensen: I like photography, I like to take pictures with film, which is old-fashioned nowadays. And I like to develop the film myself. So far that’s all been black and white film; I haven’t tried developing color film yet. And I like to collect old film cameras that I can still find film for and use those. Up until recently, I was playing hockey—adult hockey, which I started when I was 49, started playing hockey. I’m 60 now, so I’ve been doing that for about 11 years. However, I had quit, hopefully only temporarily because I’ve got some medical issues. My doctor said no hockey until this is resolved. And then I hurt my knee the other day, so I don’t know. That might—even if the other one gets resolved, that might be the end of hockey. I like to go to Tri-City Americans hockey games during the season. I got to Tri-City Dust Devil games during the baseball season. Like to go to plays and movies. I decided this year I was going to audition for a play, see if I could get in. I did not make it, but I’m going to try again, coming up later. Probably this summer. So we’ll see. Never done that before, either. But it always sounded like fun. O’Reagan: Any sort of major events or incidents, whether at work or just sort of around the Tri-Cities that comes to mind that are sort of worth commemorating, or worth just sort of mentioning? Jensen: Kind of the interesting thing—back in 1986, reactor was still operating, and do you remember Connie Chung, the news—she came to the Tri-Cities to do a show on Hanford. Everybody at work was wondering who she’s going to interview. And we’re thinking they’re going to interview, like company president, company vice president, or something. And I remember joking that she should interview a reactor operator like me. And everybody laughed. And about an hour later, the phone rang, and it was the producer wanting to talk to me, and they wanted to interview me that night. And I got permission from the company. Turned out, my dad, who, like I said, had worked at the Tank Farms—he had gone to a public hearing on what to do with tank wastes. The Connie Chung crew had gone to the same meeting, because they were getting background information. My dad spoke at the meeting, and they said, oh, we have to interview that guy. When they talked to him, he mentioned that his son worked as a reactor operator. Oh, god, that’d be great, interview them both. So that’s how I got called up. The company gave me permission, and they did it in my house. I told them, it was my son’s third birthday, and I said we’re going to have a birthday party, but you can do the interview after the birthday party. So they said okay. After I got home, my wife sent me out to buy ice cream, I think. And I’m coming back. When she came back, she was all excited. Connie Chung called personally and asked if they could film the birthday party. So they filmed my son’s third birthday party, and then they interviewed my dad and I in my living room, and then—I don’t know, two, three hours of interview stuff, and they boil it all down to about five minutes. But that’s the way that goes. So that was kind of exciting. I was a minor celebrity for a while. O’Reagan: Any other stories leap to mind? Jensen: We had some interesting scrams in the control room. I talked about the two turbine trip ones that were very interesting. The first one, like I said, I had to pull control rods rapidly to compensate for the xenon building up faster than it’s being burned out. I got that all settled out, and the power level wasn’t dropping, and I had forgotten that--when the main steam header pressure goes up, the power level goes down—well, eventually, they’re going to control the main steam header, and it’s going to go back where it’s supposed to be. And the power all of the sudden starts shooting up. So now I’m shoving control rods in like crazy to keep the power level from going up too fast, because we could scram on a high rate of rise. So I got that all settled out. The second time it happened—since I was the most experienced person on the plant on this upset, I got it settled out from the xenon, and I just got my ear open over here, and as soon as I hear somebody say, main steam header pressure’s coming down, I look over and the power level starts to go up, and I tap some rods in, and it was just like routine. Nothing to it. But another time, we had another accident—well, accident’s probably not the right word. We had another upset. We had a new control system—computerized system for controlling valve positioning. The old system we had was very ancient. It was obsolete when they put it in at the reactor, but they got a good price on it, so that’s why they did that. So we had this new computerized system, and there were two cards in the computer that controlled the valve positioning. The primary card, and a backup card. If the primary card failed, you would transfer to the backup card, and it was supposedly a bump-less transfer. The system wouldn’t even know. The primary card had failed, and so it transferred to the backup card, and everything went perfect. Well, the instrument technicians took the primary card out to repair it, and they came to put it back in. Now, this card controlled the steam valves going over to WPPSS. I was on the console controlling all of that, and I remember, jokingly, I said to the guy—the instrument tech and the engineer, when they came in, they were going to go to the rom below the control room where all of that stuff was. They were going to replace it, and I said, you aren’t going to scram us, are you? And the engineer said, trust me. And they went down—and I was just joking, because I figured, no big deal—and they went down and they put the primary card in and they told it to take over. It took over and sent its signal to the valves, but the secondary card did not relinquish control. So all of the steam valves opened up twice as far as they were supposed to. So our steam pressure goes down, and when that goes down, the reactor power goes up. And the primary coolant pressure also goes down, because you’re boiling water really well in the secondary system, that cools the water really well in the primary system, and cold water contracts. So that pressure goes down, and if the pressure goes down to far, the reactor scrams. So I’m fighting like mad with—somebody else came over to help me—to keep from scramming on low pressure. Other people are working over here, trying to keep from scramming on something over here. And other people over here, and the guy on the nuclear console is trying to keep the power level from going up too fast. We’re running around—it was very exciting. Seemed like it took hours. Probably just took a few minutes. We got it all stabilized out, and I’m looking at the primary loop pressure, and it’s kind of fluctuating and bouncing. And right when it’s going—trying to think if it was going up or down. See, if we cool—it had to have been going up. The secondary card cut out, all the valves slammed shut, and we had the exact opposite thing happen. Now, the primary loop gets hot, everything expands, and we scrammed on high pressure. And then about five minutes later, the instrument tech and the engineer come upstairs. They could tell something bad was happening, and they just looked like—it wasn’t their fault, but— O’Reagan: When it actually does scram, is it actually just rods, or—I’ve heard some designs where there’s actually just balls that are— Jensen: Okay. The main system was control rods. And you were going like this, like dropping down from the top. The old reactors had safety rods that dropped in from the top. N Reactor’s rods all came from both sides, and they overlapped. All the rods would slam in with hydraulic pressure. We had some hydraulic pumps that would turn on and pump very high pressure hydraulic fluid into the system, and the rods would shoot in. It would take about a second-and-a-half to go in. And you’d get all these enunciators in the control room, and if you were—mmm, it’s pretty boring here at two in the morning, and then all of the sudden the reactor scrams, you were wide awake. Got adrenaline pumping through and then you’ve got all these things you have to do to make sure everything works correctly on a scram, because it causes all kinds of things. The balls were the backup to the control rods. They had to be 75% in in one-and-a-half seconds. If they went in too slow, there was a problem. If they went in too fast, there was a problem, just because they could be damaged. But if they went in too slow, that’s what the ball system was for. There were hoppers on top of the reactor—I think there were a hundred-and-some reactors. And they were full of boron carbide balls. Boron absorbs neutrons. That’s what’s in the control rods to absorb neutrons. If you had one slow rod, it’s no big deal. If you had two slow rods in one column, you would drop balls on both sides of that rod column. If you had three slow rods anywhere in the reactor, you would drop balls on both sides of each of those three rod columns. Then there was also a thing where you could have a complete ball drop—drop all of the balls. If the reactor power level did not decay below five megawatts in three minutes, I think it was, then you would have a complete ball drop. That happened twice. Once, for real, because we had a scram and the rods didn’t go in at all—this is before I started working there. So there’s a scram trip, the rods did not go in, the balls dropped. And the other one was we were starting the reactor up—getting ready to start the reactor up and going through all of these checks on various instrumentation. The instrumentation that would monitor if the reactor power was below five megawatts in three minutes, they were doing the work on that, and they had a procedure that they would run. There were three channels and they would run it on each channel. That included having a switch to put in a couple of different calibrate positions. Basically, it put a false signal into the system so you could see if it’s responding correctly. So an operator and an instrument tech were doing that. They did channel one and it didn’t look right when they put it in the calibrate position. So they went on to channel two to see if it would do the same thing, and they did that. Well, they put two trips into the system. The reactor—what we called the safety circuit—was not made up, and so the system started timing for five minutes. These two instruments said the power level was greater than five megawatts with the safety circuit broken. When the give minutes went up, all the balls dropped. It was kind of innocuous. There was an enunciator that said, any ball hopper open. So the enunciator goes off, and the operator looks up at that. Any ball hopper open. And then he realized what happened. He told the control room supervisor, and the control room supervisor told me that. He says, I looked up at it. And I looked down. And I looked up again to make sure it was actually on. And then he said a few bad words and then he went and told the shift manager that we had dropped all of the balls. O’Reagan: I heard on the old reactor designs, that had to be actually sort of vacuumed out. Jensen: Yes. They used vacuum—they were steel balls, too. And they used vacuums to suck them up. At N Reactor, we had a valve at the bottom of the channel that you would open up, and the balls would drain into a hoist, and then you would lift them all the way up to the top, and put them in a hopper at the top—a big hopper—and then you would load the individual hoppers. That was a horrible, horrible job, being up there loading those hoppers. It was always hot, you had to wear plastic raingear and an assault mask, which—rubber hugging your face, and it’s hard, physical labor, and wearing the raingear and it’s already 100 degrees up there anyway. It was just miserable work. So nobody liked to do that. When we had that big ball drop, my job was to go down underneath the reactor. You could open up those drain valves remotely. So we had Bill here who smoked a lot and was not allowed to wear respirators, he was operating the control panel. But a lot of times, the valves wouldn’t work remotely. So, me, wearing all of this fresh air stuff, would stand by, but would say, 43 didn’t work. So I would have to go back there, trailing this hose with my fresh air, and go back to 43, and open it manually. It was extremely hot, radioactively, down there. I picked up my entire one week’s worth of radiation. We were allowed 300 millirem of radiation, either in a single exposure or in a seven-day period, and I picked up that entire 300 in less than an hour, going back and forth. And most of the time, I was just standing there, waiting. And I’d go back in there, and I’d pick up quite a bit, and I’d open up a valve and come back, and then I was done and left. Couldn’t work in a radiation zone for seven days after that. O’Reagan: How often did you have the radiation testing? Or was it the hand-and-foot test— Jensen: Oh, any time we came out of a contaminated zone, contaminated area, when we were wearing those SWPs, you have to undress in a proper sequence. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this. We had step-off pads. A red pad and a green pad. And when you get to the red pad, before you get to that, you have to remove all of your outer clothing before you step on the red pad. And then when you get to the green pad, you have to remove all of your SWP clothing before you step on the green pads. So you end up coming out there—well, in the old days when there were very few women working in the Area, you’d be coming out in your underwear. Later on they made us wear a t-shirt and shorts. But I kind of lost track of what we were saying there. Oh, the hand-and-foot counters. And then when you came out, we would step into a hand-and-foot counter or a whole-body portal monitor that would monitor our sides and front and back, to make sure we weren’t contaminated. Then usually we would also be surveyed by a health physics technician who’s got a Geiger counter, and he just slowly goes over, checks your hands, checks the bottom of your shoes, makes sure you’re not—don’t have any skin or clothing contamination. If you do, then you’ve got to get decontaminated. And that happens once in a while. O’Reagan: Was that ever a concern of yours? Jensen: No. I did get a few skin contaminations. I had to hold over once. I got some primary coolant water in my hair, and there was a lot of radon in the water. Radon is electrostatically attracted to polyester and hair. So it latches on, and it’s hard to get off. I just had to wait until it decayed off. After about-- O’Reagan: Did you shave? Jensen: No, no. I washed my hair several times, and then they just said—come back every hour and we’ll check, and after about three hours they let me go home. Usually, skin contaminations wash off pretty easy. If it’s your clothing, you have to wash the clothing. You don’t get to take that home until it’s passed as clean. Sometimes, rarely, stuff would have to get thrown away. But I never had any serious contamination issues. If you’re careful, if you dress correctly, and then when you come out, you undress correctly, then it’s very rare to be contaminated. O’Reagan: Any other sort of stories leap to mind from your--? Jensen: There’s a few things that happened before I was there that were interesting. I don’t know. We had an accident. It was about three—and this one is an accident—it was about three years before I started work. They flushed a tube of hot, radioactive fuel onto the charge elevator, which is not where it’s supposed to go. It’s supposed to go out the back, and fall into the discharge shoots and then go into the basin. There were workers on the elevator when it happened. They got very high radiation exposures. Fortunately, not high enough to kill anybody. But that was just lucky, I think. So, I don’t know. That was the most serious thing I know that happened there. We did have one—before I was certified, we had one really bad accident where we lost all the instrument air to the plant. Almost every valve functions with air—they’re air-operated: air to open, air to close. A lot of pumps are—the pump speeds are maintained by air pressure, things like that. So we had a scram, and it was a very abnormal scram. But we survived it. [VIDEO CUTS] Camera man: Okay, hold it out so we see. Jensen: --piece of fuel out of the reactor, and they pushed all the hot, irradiated fuel out, but we’d done a normal refueling after that shutdown. And, well, now, we’ve got to—we pushed out all the hot fuel, and now we’re going to push out all the un-irradiated fuel and keep it, just in case we start up again. I happened to be walking by when they got the last one out, and they were taking a picture and they said, get over here! Camera man: Oh, so where are you? Are you down in front there? Jensen: I am right there. Camera man: Yep, that’s right. O’Reagan: You’ve got the [INAUDIBLE] gear guy in back. Jensen: So these guys are all dressed up in the gear and they’ve got the fuel with them. I think they’ve got the fuel with them in there. There’s another picture that I don’t have that actually shows them holding the last piece. [VIDEO CUTS] There were two certified operators when I was hired on. I think there had been some more who had left. There was another lady who was in the certification program and then she certified shortly after that. In my class, there was one woman and she did not go all the way through, and then in the class after, there was at least one woman in there. So we had a handful of women certified operators. The very first one hired, I’m pretty sure that would have been Martha Coop. I’m wondering who the guy you talked to was who hired her. Because I’m sure I would know him. I just can’t think of who that might have been. The other one was Leslie Jensen, no relation to me, and I think she was the one who babysat me when I was probably a kindergartener or a first grader. She was one of my mom’s students. O’Reagan: All right. Anything else I should be asking here, any other memories that are worth preserving? Jensen: I’ll probably think things when I get home. O’Reagan: Sure. Jensen: But right now I think I’m— O’Reagan: Great. All right, well that’s been great. Thank you so much for being here. Jensen: You’re welcome. <a href="https://youtu.be/vzYLT2Ds3-Q">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:16:35 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor 200 Area Tank Farms WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems) UNC (United Nuclear Corporations) Rockwell PUREX PNNL (Pacific Northwest National Laboratory) K East Reactor K West Reactor K East/West Basins 100-K PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1961- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Jensen Description An account of the resource Mark Jensen moved to Richland, Washington in 1961 as a child and grew up in Kennewick, Washington. Mark began working on the Hanford Site in 1981. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03-25-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Nuclear reactor accidents Chernobyl Nuclear Accident, Chornobylʹ, Ukraine, 1986 Nuclear energy Nuclear power plants Nuclear fuel rods Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/26">Mark Jensen, Oral History Metadata</a> 2-East Area 200 Area 200 East 200 East Area Battelle Department of Energy Energy Northwest Hanford K Basin K West Reactor K-Basin K-West Reactor Kennewick Manhattan Project N Reactor Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX School Sun Tank Farm Tank Farms United Nuclear Corporation VIT Plant War Washington Public Power Supply System Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1bdee6527964e6e504429b8a3fb3c4e2.jpg 0e1d43357bd9268e8223fea3cb56af6b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2d0ee5d0ec221220c2ec9eadc8d68c1d.mp4 fb2e0b2309c5d043c13e3b3108643540 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marv Smith Description An account of the resource An interview with Marv Smith conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F55d8100b121011a306abbed17c8373a2.jpg 30eb0fa50e37d42214bd6be0627eea3b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Faa816ebb6d6d9173ab8e53c5c07cfa5e.mp4 ffa1311a8d2b5662cd07183a4952b54f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lippold, Esther Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Lippold_Mary_Esther Robert Bauman: Okay, here we go. Okay. We'll go ahead and get started. Mary Esther Lippold: Okay. Bauman: So we'll start maybe by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Lippold: Okay. Mary Esther Lippold, L-I-P-P-O-L-D. Bauman: All right. Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman. And today's date is December 9th of 2013. Lippold: Right. Bauman: And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if you could start by telling us a little bit about your family. I understand you were born in Richland? Lippold: Well, actually I was born in Pasco. Bauman: Oh, okay. Lippold: And my parents at the time lived in White Swan on the Yakima Indian Reservation. My dad was the administrator and my mother was the faculty. So they got married and lived in the same house. [LAUGHTER] And they had to come to Pasco to have me. That's where their family was. My grandfather was born in Pasco. My father was born in Pasco. And I was born in Pasco. And my brother was born in Pasco. Bauman: That was where the closest hospital was? Lippold: Yeah. Well, there was a hospital in Yakima, but they wanted to be here. I was the first grandchild, so it was a big deal. [LAUGHTER] My mother said that when she got ready to go over the green bridge to have me, she decided she didn't want a baby. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So then did you live in White Swan for a little while then? Lippold: For two years, yes. Then we moved Selah, where my dad was hired to be principal of a new grade school there. Then he joined the Navy. And we moved to New York from Kennewick. Mother and my brother and I came down to stay with my grandparents in Kennewick at that time, which was 1942. Then we moved to New York for six months till my dad was sent overseas. I don't know if it's considered overseas, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, where he was wounded in action. My mother got a telegram saying her husband had been wounded in action. But he called shortly before this and said you'll be getting notice that I was wounded. And he said I was playing tennis. [LAUGHTER] So his wounded in action wasn't exactly what you would picture that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Okay. And so what point did you move back to Eastern Washington? Lippold: We came back in 1946. After the war ended, my dad was stationed in Seattle for a while. And then he was hired to be the principal of Carmichael Junior High School at the time. And he worked at Columbia High School for a couple of years until Carmichael was ready to move into. And I had the stigma of being the principal’s daughter. Bauman: And what was your father's name? Lippold: Christian Anderson. Bauman: Christian Anderson. Lippold: Chris Anderson was what he was called. Bauman: And so how old were you then when you moved here? Lippold: Ten. Bauman: Okay. And so what was Richland like in 1946 when you returned to the area? Lippold: It was dusty and windy. [LAUGHTER] That's mainly what I remember. We used to go out for rides. And we got caught in a dirt storm one day. We were actually up on Van Giesen. And my dad had to pull over, because we couldn't even see where we were going. We lived on Falley Street, which is where you cross George Washington Way, it becomes Bradley Boulevard to go down to all the hotels and motels down there and where the old garbage dump was. And we moved into an F house on Falley Street in 1946. Bauman: And where did you go to school then? Lippold: I went to Lewis and Clark Elementary. And then I went to Carmichael Junior high. School. I went to Columbia High School, graduated from there in 1954, long time ago. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Do you have any memories from your time going to school here? Lippold: Oh, heavens. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I have a lot. We moved here from Seattle in the summertime. And my mother sent me to school. They entered me into Lewis and Clark on a Friday afternoon. And I wore knee socks. And not one other girl at Lewis and Clark had on knee socks. So we had to go buy some anklets for Monday. And when I got to school on Monday, they were all in knee socks. [LAUGHTER] That's my big memory of my first day at school in Richland. We lived in walking distance. We were just a block from Lewis and Clark. And I can remember running home at noon and running back to school. And I remember a lot of my teachers. Bauman: Are there any that particularly stand out or your favorites? Lippold: Well, remember Mr. Bressler, because he lived down the street from us, for one reason. But he was a very dynamic teacher. I don't actually think I ever had him. I think he was my PE teacher. My first teacher was named Jean Mabley, Mrs. Mabley. And she was from Tennessee. And we were all just fascinated with their accent. And then she got pregnant. And back in those days if you were pregnant, you did not teach elementary school. So she left us. We outgrew the building at Lewis and Clark and moved into Quonset huts. So I spent my sixth grade in a Quonset hut. And the boy in back of me used to untie my belt that I had on around my dress and tie it to my chair, so that when I got up, my chair went with me. [LAUGHTER] Those are the types of memories I have. I did have two uncles who worked out at Hanford. They both lived in Pasco. They were both chemists on the Hanford reservation. They didn't know what their job was really. I mean, they knew what individually they did. But they didn't realize they were building an atomic bomb. And it's interesting to me that they both died fairly young of pancreatic cancer. And they weren't related by blood. It was my uncle-in-law and my blood uncle. So I don't know. You read all these things about things that have occurred with people who worked at Hanford. It may be coincidence, but that's why happened to our family. My dad was--well, my mother and dad both worked in the Richland school district for 30, 40 years. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or those sorts of things when you were growing up? Lippold: Well, I was a Girl Scout. And we did a lot of community things. I know all the churches, and I know what kind of organs they all had, because I'm at church organist. And I started that when I was ten at All Saints Episcopal in Richland. Oh, I remember the Atomic Frontier Days every summer. And there was a baseball diamond just down at the end of Falley Street across George Washington Way down over the embankment there. And we spent a lot of time in the park—I guess it's Howard Amon Park now, yeah. And as far as community events, that's about all from a ten-year-old—I was from ten ‘til I went away to college here. Bauman: Could you describe the Atomic Frontier Days, like what sorts of-- Lippold: Well, it originally started out being the Grape Festival. And that was in Kennewick. And it somehow turned into one big Tri-City event called Atomic Frontier Days. And it was just, I don't know, two or three days of—a carnival always came to town and always had a Miss. Richland. That was usually wear Miss Richland was crowned and that type of thing. I don't particularly—nothing stands out to me as far as Atomic Frontier Days goes, other than it was something we looked forward to. Bauman: You mentioned the churches, you played organ? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: Was this when you were growing up? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: So what churches were there in the 1940s and early '50s? Lippold: Well, the one I remember best is what is now Richland Lutheran. And it was just a big white government building. And the Lutherans owned—well, they didn't own the building. The Army owned everything at that time, or the government owned everything. But the Episcopalians, of which I was, used the church from eight until nine o'clock. And I sat up front at the organ. And I always was looking out of the corner of my eye. And I could see the Lutheran pastor standing waiting to come out. [LAUGHTER] So we always knew it was getting time for us to get out of there. And then there was Central United Protestant Church, which was a big church at the time, Christ the King, Southside, Northwest, and West Side United Protestant, which is now--I guess it's still called West Side. But they all had Hammond organs at the time. All the organs were alike, same instrument. And I played at All Saints in the Sunday school until I was 13, when the organist moved away. And they moved me upstairs, where I could see the Lutherans waiting to come in and play the organ. And I'm still playing. Bauman: So when you were growing up, both your parents you said were in the school district. Lippold: Yes. Bauman: Were most of your friends’ fathers or parents working at Hanford then? Lippold: Yes. All of our neighbors except for the ones who were teachers. We had a few teacher neighbors. But all of our neighbors worked at Hanford. I don't know what they did. And I'm not sure they knew what they did. But they got on buses. And it was funny, things I do remember back then, the houses were all exactly alike. There were two F houses on our side of the street and four on the other side of the street. And every Saturday night—evidently the payday was on Friday. And the guys that were single, or maybe they weren't single, would go out and celebrate pay day. And then they would be on their way home and get the wrong house, because they all looked exactly alike. But we had people walking into our house all the time thinking they were home. Well, we did the same thing. We walked into our next door neighbor's house one night. One day my aunt and my grandmother came out. And Mother and I looked out the window and my aunt up going like this into the next door neighbor's window. And we called. I was like, what are you doing? Oh. [LAUGHTER] She thought she was at our house. But that was easy to do—the houses all looked exactly alike until you got to know who lived inside, and then we knew. Bauman: So were you still living in Richland when it became sort of independent of the federal government then? Lippold: No. It became incorporated in 1958. And by then, I was married. My husband was in the Air Force. And we were all over for 21 years. And then we came back. We didn't find any place we liked better than the Tri-Cities. Except for the fact that the year we came back, the wind didn't quit blowing for over a year. [LAUGHTER] We were about ready to pack up and go somewhere else, and then it quit. Bauman: Did your parents buy their house then, when they-- Lippold: They bought the F house that they lived in, yes. I don't recall what they bought it for. I think $6,000. And it was a nice house. They were so excited, because it was the first new house they had actually had. And you got assigned a house by what job you had. And my dad, being a school administrator, got a fairly nice house. The Fs are a two-story single unit. And I remember even—General Electric at this time had taken over the project. And if you had a light bulb burned out, you just called GE, and they came and put in a new light bulb. They delivered coal. And it was like living on a military installation, which I did for 21 years. [LAUGHTER] So it was quite a bit like Richland was in the days before I left. Then I worked for the City of Richland from 1976 to 2001. And I was the expert—if anybody wanted to know anything about the old garbage dump, they came to me. [LAUGHTER] Because we lived right by it and played down there. In those days, you could go down, play at the dump and really find some neat things. My original engagement ring is down there somewhere. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And how did that happen? Lippold: My husband and I had to date to go see Gone with the Wind. And he was out flying a model airplane, and he came home too late to go to Gone with the Wind. I think I was 16 or 17. And I took my ring off and threw it at him. And then he took it, went out on the front porch and really let it fly. That was Labor Day weekend. And all the neighbors spent Labor Day weekend looking for my ring. And we never found it. A pickup truck went down the street shortly after hauling a poplar tree. And we think the ring probably hooked on the poplar tree and went with it to the dump. But I was always familiar with all the--I knew where the sewer plant was and where the water plant was. Well, I worked in public works. But I had known where the old ones were. Bauman: So what year did you graduate high school? Lippold: I graduated from Columbia High school. Yeah. Bauman: In what year? Lippold: '54. 1954. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then you came back to Richland? Lippold: Yeah. We were gone for 21 years. And then we moved back. And we didn't know what we were going to be doing or where we were going to be living, but we decided to buy a house in Kennewick. And we ended up with my husband working in Pasco. And I was working in Richland. And our kids went to school in Kennewick, which worked out well. Bauman: You were covering the Tri-Cities. Lippold: Yes, very. I definitely am a Tri-Citian. Bauman: So how had the place changed in the 21 years that you were-- Lippold: Well, housing prices [LAUGHTER] had increased immensely. My parents, as I said, paid $6,000 for their F house. And just when we came back—our last military assignment was in Germany—and when we got back from Germany, they offered us the house for $18,000. And we were like idiots, we did not buy it. So we went to Kennewick and paid a lot more than that. But housing went up quite a bit in those 21 years. I don't really remember how much houses were when we left here when I was married. Because I paid my parents $25 a week rent while I worked for GE and waited till my husband got out of cadets, so we could get married. Bauman: How about the community itself? Had it changed much did it seem to you? Lippold: Not really. Bauman: Same place? Lippold: There were more houses that weren't government. Alphabet houses, of course, had been built in North Richland. And they were just starting to build out at Meadow Springs area. And we had some friends who had bought land out around Columbia Center area when we were teenagers. It was one of my friends’ father's. And we just could not imagine why he would buy land out there. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good move on his part. Bauman: It seemed quite remote at the time, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Anything else? Any other memories that sort of really stand out to you from your time growing up in Richland? Lippold: Well, it was just a nice place to grow up. We were running around the streets playing hide-and-go-seek at night and playing tag and all the things that kids did back then. We followed the mosquito spray truck, which was DDT. And the big sport was to ride your bicycle in the fog behind the mosquito truck. And no one thought a thing of that. And I remember one day we were having a party in our backyard and the mosquito truck came by, and we were just all lost in a white fog until it blew away. We could walk just about any place. I walked to my music lesson, which was on Van Giesen. And I lived on Falley Street. And that was a long walk. We went to the movies. The Richland Theater was there. And The Village Theater had movies. They had westerns every Saturday morning. And then after Uptown was built--I'm not sure what year Uptown was built. I know it was when I was in junior high, probably 1949, '50. And that was a big occasion to have the Uptown Theater there. And they Army, I remember when the Army base opened up, Camp Hanford. Because my dad was military, and my husband-to-be was military. Our wedding reception was out at Camp Hanford. But it was just a nice safe place to live. You never thought anything would happen to you or could happen--anything bad--here. Bauman: You mentioned the Uptown shopping center. Before Uptown, where did you go to for shopping? Lippold: Downtown, which is now called the Parkade. And down there, they had Thrifty Drugstore. Well, and the owner of Thrifty Drug was our neighbor. He lived in an L house, which was a very nice single four bedroom two-story unit. They lived just around the corner from us. And then there was a C. C. Anderson's, which is now Macy's. But that was the big department store. There was a hardware store on the corner of Lee and George Washington Way. And the Village Theater was across the street on George Washington Way from the hardware store. The building is still there. If you know—when you're driving up George Washington Way, you can find where the theater was. There was an optometrist in there for years. But my memories of Richland are—I don't have a lot of memories of Hanford, because we were never really directly concerned with Hanford other than everybody we knew worked there. We were very involved in anything to do with the schools. Bauman: Right. And so your father was at Carmichael? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: And for how long? Lippold: He was there until 1963. He retired just at the right time when boys started wearing their pants low and didn't wear belts to school. My dad sent them home to put on a belt. He was an old fashioned school disciplinarian. And I think it was good for his blood pressure that he retired in 1963, because things changed pretty drastically during the '60s. Then my dad worked for Benton County Public Health District as the business manager for 15 years. And then he retired. Bauman: And how about your mom? You said she was-- Lippold: She was a teacher for years. She always said her most interesting teaching experience in Richland was at John Ball School, which was a school built out north of Jefferson. And it was built for the Camp Hanford kids. Bauman: Okay. Lippold: And she said those were the most interesting group of kids she had ever had. Because they were from all over the United States. And here they were all of a sudden up in the middle of nowhere Hanford where the wind blew all the time. But she loved John Ball School. She was there for two or three years. She taught at Jefferson, Marcus Whitman. She wouldn't substitute at my dad's school, she wouldn't go to Carmichael, because he was there. [LAUGHTER] Not that she didn't like him, but she didn't think she should be substituting at her husband's school. Like I shouldn't have been going to my dad's school. Bauman: What was her name? Lippold: Her name was Mary Anderson. That's one of the reasons I go by my two names. Bauman: Well, was there anything else that we haven't talked about yet in your memories of Richland that you'd like to share? Lippold: Well, I've got how many years of memories. [LAUGHTER] I should have a lot. But most of my memories are through the eyes of either a ten-year-old, ten to 21. I was 21 when I moved away, when I got married and followed the military with my husband. So my memories are kid's memories. I remember when President Kennedy came to Hanford. I happened to be—we were home on leave. And that was exciting. I did get to go out and see him. We saw President Eisenhower. He came to the opening of Ice Harbor Dam I think, one of the dams. We got up at five o'clock in the morning to go see President Eisenhower. I don't know what stands out in my mind. High school was fun. We used to, during homecoming, the kids always did what they called a serpentine. I don't know if they do that anymore or not. But we all held hands. And there were 309 in our graduating class, and we all just held hands and ran all over. [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't go far right now. The night before the homecoming ball game it was just like a big snake. We were all in one big line and followed the person that we were hanging onto. Bauman: Going back to President Kennedy's visit, do you have any specific memories from that visit, what the day was like or the crowd, or anything from that? Lippold: It was a huge crowd. Mainly, I just remember we didn't get real close to him. But we were close enough to be able to recognize him and know who he was. And I don't remember what year it was that he came and why we were even here at the time, but we used to come home on leave. My husband got 30 days of leave from the military every year, plus every time we moved, which was 22 times in 20 years. [LAUGHTER] They usually had a couple of months to make the move, the transition and so forth, and we always came home for that. And our boys and I came home—lived in Richland when my husband was overseas. He was a pilot on B-52s, so he had three tours over Vietnam. One in Vietnam and the other two were just flying over it. And Richland then—yeah, that was in 1967 I think. And the price of gas went up to $0.41 a gallon. And I was just incensed over that, that they could charge $0.41 for a gallon of gas. I went to a gas station. We lived upon Cedar, our two boys and I, during the year that my husband was in Vietnam. And I went to a gas station up on the corner of Swift and Thayer I think--or Wright. And it was called Buck and Joe's. And one day I took my car in there. And they knew that I was living by myself and didn't have a husband to tend to my car. And I don't remember what it was that wrong with my car. But they charged me $0.10. [LAUGHTER] So I decided they were good guys. One day I was down at the golf course--there was par three golf course just down off George Washington Way, kind of where the golf course is now, but way north of it. And I couldn't get my car started, so I called them and they came down. And they said, well, maybe if you put it in park it would start. So I was rather embarrassed over that. [LAUGHTER] Plus my golfing was a very bad, too. I hit every tree down there. Bauman: So just looking back over your years, especially your years growing up, overall how would you describe the community in Richland in the '40s and '50s? Lippold: Well, we loved it. Like I said, it was just a fun place to be. My parents were very strict with both my brother and me. And my dad, of course, was always close to the police chief. And my brother is two and a half years younger than I am. And my dad always had the police watching him. [LAUGHTER] So he couldn't get away with anything. And he did try, but it didn't work. It was a place where you just didn't think anything would happen to you. And actually nothing really did. I had to be in bed by nine o'clock. All the kids knew that I had to be in bed at nine o'clock. So they would ride their bicycles up and down the street yelling at me, and I was always up in my bed lying down looking out my window wishing I was out there riding my bicycle with them. [LAUGHTER] It was just kind of like Mayberry in Andy Griffith living here. Everybody knew everybody. Our Girl Scout troop, we were all friends. We all lived in the south end. Even now, when we go to our class reunions, we tend to pair off or group of into the Lewis and Clark group and the Marcus Whitman group and the Spalding, you know, all the different grade schools. Because those are the people that we had known since the beginning of--well, I came here in the fifth grade. But a lot of them had been there earlier. Not too much earlier, because we came here about maybe a couple years later than the majority of the families—kids who were in school. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your memories of those early years of Richland, growing up here. Lippold: Well, you’re welcome. I wish I knew more about the actual history of Hanford. But hearsay is about all I would have on that subject. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, no, these are great stories. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Lippold: Okay. You're wel-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:31:09 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 198 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1942, ca1946-1954, ca1975-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Mabley, Jean Anderson, Christian Anderson, Mary Kennedy, John F. Eisenhower, Dwight D. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Esther Lippold Description An account of the resource An interview with Esther Lippold conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--History--20th century. Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-12-9 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Eisenhower, Dwight D. General Electric Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.)