46 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c33df5397218430ec4a5049f39b3c95.jpg 384c86d6b7151ec7789e72656d768238 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff658c2c5a9d737ef738ba3193fac4532.mp4 797d19bc43d8ba1f906736c6b1abb9c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maryann Parkhurst Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maryann Parkhurst Description An account of the resource An interview with Maryann Parkhurst conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa04663b210fdfb1278673dce9cbdf72d.jpg 1f9da566f5bb72a143e3f26220eecc63 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff8b069635fc42200e42972b2f1f49653.mp4 2c822e2349653b920084093d7e02b9c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Matt Lardy Description An account of the resource An interview with Matt Lardy conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd350b56731c1ee88b8c19079e9a16757.JPG b6e2050edfa97bbc612db21101040b22 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc9d1a57f8d88a0e009add28a9e2ba8f1.mp4 3286c8becf054ce14ec7b2b3b78954f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maureen Hamilton Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an interview with Maureen Hamilton on January 20th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Ms. Hamilton about her experiences working on the Hanford site and her experiences in this community. Thanks for being here. Maureen Hamilton: You’re welcome. O’Reagan: If we could start, maybe—it’d be great if you could just tell us a bit about your birthplace, where you grew up, just a little bit of biography before you got to Hanford, if you would. Hamilton: Sure. I was raised on a farm in south central Illinois, not too far from St. Louis. So I was a farm girl. I went to college at Monmouth College in northern Illinois, which is where I got my chemistry degree—I got a bachelor’s degree there. I worked briefly for Dow Chemical in Michigan, and then I was working at the University of Missouri in their agricultural chemistry lab while my husband was in graduate school. So there I was doing analysis of various environmental and animal products, looking for heavy metal contamination. Then we were in Germany for a couple of years while my husband was in service, and we ended up out here starting in 1972, where we both worked onsite. O’Reagan: Sorry to interrupt. Okay, so you came directly from Germany to here? Hamilton: No, there were a few months finding the job, once we got back. Well, at the time there weren’t a lot of chemist jobs around, I don’t think. So my husband sent out applications to several hundred companies, and Hanford was one of the places that responded. I think possibly because he was a special weapons technician in the Army, they knew—and his master’s degree dealt with some radioactive materials, so that may have been part of why he was hired here. O’Reagan: Were you familiar at all with the community before you moved here? Hamilton: No. No, it was something totally—totally foreign to us, but interesting. O’Reagan: Do you remember your first impressions? Hamilton: [LAUGHTER] Well, coming out of Idaho and the green into the barrenness of eastern Washington was a bit of a shock, yes. Because I hadn’t seen it, he didn’t really see that much of it when he came for the interview. But we very quickly learned to love the place. I wouldn’t live any place else right now. O’Reagan: What was the area like in the ‘70s? Hamilton: It was still a small farming community, pretty much. There was obviously—Hanford was the main employer, as far as Richland and much of the Tri-Cities was concerned. O’Reagan: Where did you live? Hamilton: Well, for a couple—we had an apartment off of Van Giesen for a short period of time. Then we moved into a condo apartment out on the Meadow Springs golf course. Then in ’75 we built our own house on Peachtree Lane in Orchard Hills. O’Reagan: So when you were working on the site, you were industrial hygiene chemist, is that right? Hamilton: That was my position, yes. O’Reagan: Would you explain exactly what that is? What’s involved in that? Hamilton: Sure. The employer initially was the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, which was the medical contractor onsite. In addition to providing the doctors and nurses, they had the industrial hygiene for the whole site. Industrial hygiene is monitoring of worker health and checking the workplace to make sure that it is safe, that people aren’t being overexposed to things. We had a chemistry lab, and that’s where I was involved. So we would analyze air samples that were collected onsite for things like asbestos or lead or heavy metals or whatever types of materials—non-radioactive. The lab was located here in town at 805 Goethals, so we weren’t onsite. We also did drinking water analysis onsite, and we were doing a little bit of hazardous waste characterization. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. So what would a typical working day look like? Hamilton: Oh, it varied, depending on what was going on. Initially, when I started, we were pretty much—I mean, the industrial hygienists were the people who went out in the field and collected the samples and evaluated the data. The lab—we were very small—I started actually as a technician for a year before I actually became the chemist. We had one chemist, one technician. And then we eventually grew to have a total staff in the lab department of about 20. We would run gas chromatographs, atomic absorption, different types of equipment, analyzing those air and water samples that were being brought into the laboratory. I also eventually—well, initially at least—was functioning as partly a quality person as well. In 1974, the lab became one of the first in the country to be accredited by the American Industrial Hygiene Association. So, while I wasn’t listed as the technical manager or the director at that point, I was kind of the technical expertise for that portion of the company. Eventually, expanded that I did manage the lab component as well as function as their QA coordinator. O’Reagan: Is that similar to the work you were doing before you came here? Hamilton: No, my experience before was strictly laboratory. Had no management responsibilities. And while I was using spectroscopy equipment at the University of Missouri, it was more on things like goose livers and grain and things like that. It had nothing, really, to do with human health. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. So you said you went out to collect samples at some point, especially in the early career? Hamilton: Just for a few months, I actually—Hanford had some offsite monitoring systems across the river for nitrogen oxides and I think sulfur oxides. It was things that would have come out of the production facilities. It wasn’t radioactive, again, it was chemicals. So once a week, we’d drive out there and change—they were liquid impinger type samples. So we’d change them out and bring them back and analyze them. O’Reagan: I’ve read some accounts of local farmers who grew up remembering people coming from Hanford—scientists, to come gather samples from their farm to test for various things. Is that the type of--? Hamilton: That might have been part of it, because at least one of them, I know, was set up near a barn on the top of the bluffs there, across the river. We weren’t doing any—there were a lot of other people doing radiological monitoring, that was nothing to do with what we were doing. But it’s possible that some of the people where the sites were located would remember. Because they were on private property. O’Reagan: Did you ever find any safety hazards? Hamilton: None of what we were—no, we never found anything that was exceeding any kind of limits in those. O’Reagan: Could you describe the ways in which the security or secrecy of the Area impacted your work? Hamilton: I mean, since I wasn’t doing radiological, it wasn’t as much so as like what my husband was doing. But if we wanted to give a paper or anything at a technical conference, it had to go through DoE for approval for release. So we worked with very little classified material where I was. O’Reagan: Can you tell us about what your husband did? Hamilton: He worked at the Plutonium Finishing Plant, PFP. He was a non-destructive assay chemist, where he was monitoring the plutonium that was being either produced or stored there at PFP. O’Reagan: That was—did his role change over the course of time he was working there? Hamilton: He had a few months, initially, where they rotated him through different sites to pick a spot where they wanted to end up. But, no, he spent most of his career there. O’Reagan: Let’s see. So the first few decades you lived here were during the Cold War. Did you feel that impacted your time here, or was that just something in the background? Hamilton: I was not nearly as aware of it as some people seem to have been. No, that just really didn’t—was some place off, had nothing to do, really. I didn’t feel like we were in danger because we were close to Hanford or anything like that, no. O’Reagan: Do you have any impression of whether the community around you also felt that way? Do you know if there were—I don’t know quite what I’m asking here. Was there more of an impression of that, or did people just sort of go about their lives? Hamilton: I think people here were just used to Hanford as a secret place. You don’t talk about what you’re doing out there, that’s just the way it is. We did our thing and didn’t worry about the rest of the world much. O’Reagan: Tying back into—tell us a little bit about life in the ‘70s here. Do you feel—I don’t know—the social scene or the feel, the life in the area has changed much over the ‘70s to ‘80s to ‘90s? Hamilton: Yeah, I would say that’s for sure. For instance, when we built our house out there in what’s now called South Richland, which is across the river, near<a>[EM1]</a> Meadow Springs—the road from there to Columbia Center was still gravel. Gage didn’t exist as a paved road. We were like the second house in the subdivision where we were built. It was mostly still orchards around us, so it was a lot more rural there. There was probably one, maybe, movie theater, the Uptown. And I guess Columbia Center maybe always had one. But there’s a lot more for people to do now, and there’s certainly way more people to do it. O’Reagan: What was it you liked about living here? Hamilton: Well, being a country girl from the start, I guess we liked the feel of a small, close-knit community. The job was good. It was very comfortable living. We had good friends. So it was pleasant. We didn’t have a lot of traffic to deal with. O’Reagan: What sort of things would you do in your spare time, or with the friends in the area? Hamilton: Oh, one of the things that became a big interest for us was the growing wine industry. We came just about the time it was getting started, and we stumbled into making friends with the Rauners at Yakima River shortly after we got here. So we got to actually help them at times with crushing things, to get to know all about the wine-making process. And we quickly joined the Tri-Cities Enological Society, it was called then. Now it’s just the Wine Society. So we were very much involved with that. We also enjoyed the variety of types of scenery here. Whether you wanted to do something, you were close to the mountains, you were close to the ocean, you had this nice dry, arid climate here, where you could go hiking or do things. So it was an easy, comfortable place to be. Have lots of things—options to do. O’Reagan: You ever get to use your chemistry knowledge in the wine--? Hamilton: [LAUGHTER] Learned enough about the wine making process to know I didn’t want to do it. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: You’re—since 1999—a consultant, a public safety consultant. Is that right? Hamilton: Yeah. When I retired from Hanford, officially, then, basically, I continued for five years going back, doing the same thing for them onsite that I had done as an employee on a part-time basis. But it was in ’95 that I started doing these laboratory assessments for the American Industrial Hygiene Association, which is one of the organizations that had accredited our lab here. So I still do that through—this year’s probably about the last year I’ll do that, but I’ve been doing that for 20 years. O’Reagan: What’s involved in that? Hamilton: It’s going to these various lab sites and making sure that they have all the documentation, the properly trained people, that they’re following the procedures and doing it in accordance with the now international quality requirement. O’Reagan: So you’ve been involved in some of the historical organizations around here. When did you first start getting involved in those? Hamilton: Pretty much after I retired from Hanford. I knew I wanted to do something locally, too. And I had visited the CREHST Museum from way back when it was still in the Federal Building. So that was the first thing I did. I started out reviewing some of their oral histories and then gradually, as I had more time during the day, I would serve as kind of a fill-in docent for them, and did various projects for them. Then when they were transitioned out and replaced by the REACH, I moved over there. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. What is it about that work that you find rewarding? What is it that draws you to work with them? Hamilton: Well, I think it’s extremely important to maintain the history of what was going on here at Hanford. This is certainly a unique and important part of our country’s history. I’m very pleased that the National Park has been designated. That will be an important part of preserving all of this. I like—people need to know their history. So I think the Hanford history is—as well as the exotic geology we have here, the effect of the Ice Age floods and everything. This is unique area, both geologically, and historically, I think. O’Reagan: Mm-hm. I guess it’s more common today, but do you ever feel you are treated differently as a woman scientist over your career? Hamilton: [LAUGHTER] Unfortunately, yes. I had to do a little fighting to get some equal pay when I first came out here. But it was easy enough to do. And in the field of industrial hygiene, women have been moving in quite a bit, actually, there. Probably almost equal number of women as men in this field now. O’Reagan: Interesting. Anything else about your time working on or around Hanford that leaps to mind that you’d like to talk about? Anything that was particularly unusual, or just sort of curious, or otherwise noteworthy? Hamilton: No, I can’t really think of too much that at least I wouldn’t want to talk about. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Sure. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in this area over the course of time you’ve been here? Hamilton: Well, I feel it has been a very rewarding experience, a very good place to live. I think it’s environmentally very pleasant. The work at Hanford is certainly important. The fact that the first commercial scale nuclear reactor in the world was developed here. The speed at which things were done back then. The government regulation has become extremely burdensome since then and it’s much harder, but when Hanford was a production facility, it was something you felt like you were contributing to the society and to the world. O’Reagan: What haven’t I thought to ask, or should I be asking? Hamilton: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Anything? Anything come to mind? I try to go for the open-ended questions. Hamilton: Yeah. I think the culture at Hanford really changed when they shut down. And now that it’s just a cleanup site, the loyalty, the sense of responsibility to the site, I think, has gone away. There’s a lot more disputes, unhappy employees, some of which may or may not be based on fact. There’s just not the continuity there was when people could work there for 30 years and know that’s where they were going to be for their lifetime. There was a lot more dedication to it. You felt like you were accomplishing something. O’Reagan: Of course, the cleanup may be still going in 30 years! Hamilton: Well, I don’t—do not print this part—but as far as I’m concerned, it’ll never get done. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: So were those documents you brought— Hamilton: Well, I brought some articles out of some of the Hanford newspapers and things. I didn’t know if you have access to some of those types—I assume you do. But I just thought I’d show you some of those, if you were interested. O’Reagan: Yeah, we’d love to go through them. Any of them in particular that would be worth talking about now? Hamilton: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, it’s mostly things like the history of what was happening there with the environmental health. You can take a look at—one of the things that I think was important when I was there yet, and the industrial hygiene function—the health and safety function was focused in one company, it was better controlled, there were records that were kept, and everybody knew where they were, and they were being maintained. The first thing they did was they took the hygienist away from—well, first they took the respirators away from HEHF. Then they took the hygienists, separated them, and moved them, spread them out all over the contractors onsite. Then they moved our industrial hygiene lab out with the environmental lab, and we became a very small thing, compared to a bigger thing. Now, if you go out—we repeatedly would do things that had already been done, because the contractors changed, they lost the records, they have no history. That just added to the jumble. I feel sorry for the workers who have to try and recreate their health histories. Because I don’t think the records since the early to mid ‘80s are anything like they used to be. O’Reagan: Do you feel safety was a priority on the Hanford site during your time there? Hamilton: I think it was. They did what they could to the best of their ability with what they knew at the time. So I think it really was a very safe place to work. Yes, there are things that have happened. Yes, there were exposures. But then that was happening in any industry, no matter where you go. People learn because they see what’s happening. They don’t test animals on everything before they put it into practice. No, I think it was a very—you would hear of very few accidents, per se. There were asbestos exposures, there’s beryllium, there’s radiation, but it’s just part of industry. So I don’t think it was any different. O’Reagan: Okay. Anything else we should look through that you have? Hamilton: Well, you can keep that. That’s my resume. I’d like that other—if you want a copy of that other, I can send it to you. This one had some information just about the industrial hygiene lab being recognized. I don’t know if you want any— O’Reagan: Is that a picture of you? Hamilton: That’s me, way back when these were—and these are all Hanford-taken pictures. So they’re ones you could get, but I could make copies of those for you, too, if you wanted them. These are just—there’s Dr. Meader, these are some of the people at HEHF. That’s about all that’s in there. O’Reagan: Great. Yeah, we have—we’re just setting up our scanning stations, so we might see if we could get copies of some of the pictures. Hamilton: Okay. I know these I have on the computer. I can send you. There are three of these early ones of me in the lab. I could send you those. O’Reagan: Yeah, I know there have been a number of oral history interviews and interest in some of the women who were assigned to this, around the site, or to work on the site. Hamilton: Mm-hmm. O’Reagan: So I think it’d be very interesting for that as well as the safety aspects are very interesting. And then also just everyone’s experiences in the area-- Hamilton: Yeah. O’Reagan: --are worth knowing. Hamilton: One of the unique things I got to do were I got to go on one of the first People to People occupational health trip to China back in the early ‘80s. O’Reagan: What was that like? Hamilton: Fascinating! [LAUGHTER] There were 23 of us, I think. We stayed in places like the Royal Palace in Beijing. We definitely had Chinese people who told us where we could and couldn’t go. [LAUGHTER] We were not allowed on the street by ourselves. When we were there with the group, people were just awed by us, because we looked so different. They were all still in their blue suits and not much else. One of our people had a Polaroid camera and having an instant picture was just amazing to them. We got to go to hospitals and factories and things that normal tourists wouldn’t see. O’Reagan: That was all sponsored through Hanford, or part of your job? Hamilton: No. HEHF paid my way, but I’m not sure—I mean, I belonged to the American Industrial Hygiene Association, the professional organization, and somehow, they put my name on a list, and HEHF said, yes, they’d pay for it. So I went. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: That’s very interesting. Hamilton: Yeah. O’Reagan: Did you get to do other travel over the course of your time? Hamilton: Well, I went to conferences and things, but nothing as exotic. Yeah. O’Reagan: Okay. I think that’s most of the sort of set questions that I had down, but anything else you think is worth the time to chat about? Hamilton: I can’t think of too much else. I think you’ve got the overall picture. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: All right, well, thank you for speaking with us. It’s been very interesting. Hamilton: Sure. Okay. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:27:17 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1972-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1972-2005 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maureen Hamilton Description An account of the resource An interview with Maureen Hamilton conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01-20-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/21">Maureen Hamilton Oral History Interview</a> Cold War drinking Event Hanford Park Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant River War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F076444117ae2c86647ee8d705fe3c145.jpg 8976c055d68251fc4d46ba983b6f47fb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89da53c58c34229c68c8890bd2ee16b8.mp4 f561bf21f4c6e0119896680d6c3fa4de Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Reagan, Douglas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Freshley, Max Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: First off, would you please say and spell your name for us? Maxwell Freshley: My legal name is Maxwell Freshley, F-R-E-S-H-L-E-Y. Not many people around here know me by that name. I go by Max. O’Reagan: Okay, thanks. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral interview history here on January 11th, 2016. This interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Freshley about his experiences working at the Hanford site. To start us off, would you tell us maybe some of your life up, before you came to this area? Freshley: Well, I was born and raised in Portland, Oregon. I graduated from the University of Portland in 1951 with a degree in physics. I was offered a tech grad position on the site here. At the time, it was operated by General Electric Company, and this was—I started work here in June of 1951. Okay. So I guess prior to coming here, my having been raised in Portland, and that’s where I went to school, my extended experiences were rather limited. That’s kind of what happened. So I came here in June of 1951, fresh out of school, I wasn’t married at the time. First place I lived was in the Army barracks in north Richland. I can’t tell you about how long I lived there, but while I was living in north Richland in the barracks, I did not have a car. So being kind of isolated out north was a bit of a challenge. So as soon as I could find somebody who would loan me some money, I bought a brand new Ford and that solved a lot of my problems. And then sometime during that first year, I was moved to one of the dorms in Richland. I think the dorms were located on Lee Boulevard. It was close to—I’m calling it a drugstore. But it was kind of like a Payless. I don’t think that was the right name at that time. But they had a restaurant—they served food in this drugstore. So that’s where I would eat. O’Reagan: Had you heard about Hanford before you came here? Freshley: Not really. I really hadn’t heard about it. It was all secret, you know? O’Reagan: Right. Were you aware of the sort of connection with the atomic bomb before you got here? Freshley: I’d have to say I was not. Although while I was still going to school—still in school—when was the Nagasaki ignited? O’Reagan: ’45, I believe? Freshley: ’45? O’Reagan: I think so. Freshley: That—oh, okay. O’Reagan: It was the very end of the Second World War. Freshley: Yeah. Well, I might’ve heard of that. Yeah. O’Reagan: What was your first impression of Richland and this area? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] First impression was living in the barracks out in north Richland-- [LAUGHTER] was not too great. Of course, my first impression was it was darn hot here, coming here in June. It was very warm. My future wife and her mother brought me to Richland from Portland and dropped me off. [LAUGHTER] So things kind of went from there. O’Reagan: Sure. So we were going to ask about where you were living, but we already addressed that to some degree. What was life like in the barracks? Freshley: Oh. I would say very basic. Of course, in the dorm rooms that were assigned, you always had a roommate that you lived with. So I became, of course, very familiar with my roommates. When I moved from the barracks to Richland, I had a different roommate. So I made acquaintances with two people like that. They were both scientists, so we got along really well. In fact, one of them is still living in Richland. O’Reagan: What kind of work did you do at Hanford, and where on the site did you work? Freshley: Well, first of all, I worked in 300 Area in 3706 Building. I was—they assigned me a position in the Graphite Group. We were studying graphite, the moderator in the reactors. One of the things that was going on at the time—and I can’t tell you what reactor it was—but the graphite core was swelling. It was—I don’t know if it had come in contact yet with the upper shield, but it was growing. I was assigned to two people in the Graphite Group. We went and extracted samples of graphite from the core of this reactor. The thing that they had set up to do that, of course, was already here. So we were extracting samples—core samples. What the purpose of my job was to determine the annealing temperature of the graphite, so that if they raised the temperature in the core to a point where graphite annealing started occurring, then the core would shrink back and not interfere with the top shield. So I think they were looking for somebody—[LAUGHTER] I won’t say it. But anyway, I was assigned the position or job of taking these graphite samples and investigating the annealing temperature. What we used was a Fresnel diffractometer. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that, but interference rings from this interferometer would be displayed. It was my job to count the rings. It was a very tedious job. I’m sure that these two fellas didn’t want to do that, so they found me, and I did it. These rotations were—honestly I can’t remember whether they were three months or six months, but you would rotate from one position to another. I don’t remember if you could choose your positions—your rotations—I guess it probably depended on whether or not there was something available or not to go to. So I fulfilled my position in the Graphite Group. I didn’t want to stay in the Graphite Group, so I moved on. O’Reagan: Before we move on, I have a quick question for you. This is a little bit off-script, but I have an undergraduate degree in physics. Freshley: Uh-huh. O’Reagan: I was reading a while back that when you started heating up the reactors, it caused that expansion to go back, and that sounds like what you’re describing. Freshley: Mm-hm. O’Reagan: But what is annealing? Freshley: It’s heating to a temperature where the damage caused by the neutron radiation would be annealed physically. So the core would shrink back. But you had to get it up to a certain temperature, and you didn’t want to overheat it, because if you get it too hot, then the core—the graphite would oxidize. That would not be good. But I think the cores were enclosed in an argon atmosphere, as I remember. O’Reagan: It just surprised me, of course—I expected you get something hot, it expands. But now we’re saying you get it hot and it shrinks! Freshley: Yeah, that’s right. But when you’re looking at the diffraction rings on the interferometer, you can tell by the movement of the rings when you are reaching the annealing temperature. So either they—and I can’t honestly remember the details here, whether the rings did not move as fast, or whether they might have even changed direction. O’Reagan: Interesting. Freshley: So I had an early experience with a graphite-moderated production reactor. O’Reagan: What was it—you said you moved on from graphite to something else? Freshley: Oh yeah. My second assignment was in the metallurgy laboratory in 234-5 Building. 234-5 Building now is known as—god. Hm. Plutonium—it’s the one that you read a lot-- O’Reagan: Plutonium Finishing Plant? Freshley: Pardon me? O’Reagan: Is it the plutonium finishing? Freshley: Yeah, Plutonium Finishing Plant where the plutonium buttons were received and machined to a hockey-type shape. Well, they were—actually, they were reduced to form the metal, and I was not involved in that. But I was in the Plutonium Metallurgy Lab, which was at one end of the Plutonium Finishing Plant. I don’t think there are many or any people left around who know of that. I can’t think of anybody that I worked with during that period who’s still around. But we had a Plutonium Metallurgy Lab, and my manager was a very nice fella. This, now, was in the early ‘50s. One thing that he wanted me to do—and I don’t think that what I did was original research, because I think all of the original research was probably done at Los Alamos, which was the renowned weapons facility. He wanted me to investigate the low temperature phase changes in plutonium. So what I did—and that’s important because phase changes in plutonium or any metal creates a dimensional change. And a dimensional change is not something that you want in a weapon or a bomb, because it interferes with the efficiency of the bomb. So here I was, fresh out of school and didn’t know from up. Anyway, I put together what’s called a differential thermal analysis apparatus. Are you familiar with that? O’Reagan: I know the individual terms. Freshley: Okay. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what I did. I ran low temperature phase studies on plutonium—pure plutonium to detect these low temperature phase changes, which were very—since they were low temperature, they were very difficult to pick up, because there wasn’t much energy exchange during the phase change. Then, since that was not something you would want in a weapon or a bomb, small alloy additions were added to the plutonium to stabilize the low temperature, so you didn’t have these low temperature changes. All of this at the time was quite classified, which make it extra interesting, I guess. But when I went out to 234-5 Building in the plutonium lab, we were—there were three or four of us—we were assigned a car. So we had a car that we could go back and forth in, to work. That made it pretty nice, because we didn’t have to ride the bus and all of that. Then—this is something else that I doubt very much that anyone knew about at the time. It was the fabrication of plutonium parts for artillery shells. We cast plutonium in what was known as the 231-Z Building. We didn’t do it in the 234-5 Building. 231 was just across the street. In that building, I was not involved in the casting or the machining, but the parts were machined in that building. Then they were brought over to 234-5 Building in the Plutonium Metallurgy Lab. Because plutonium would oxidize and so on—so my job was to produce pure nickel coatings. But I don’t mean coatings like were attached. We used bismuth, which has a low melting temperature and it’s stable, to machine the exact replica of the plutonium part. Then, my job was to make—with electroplated nickel onto this bismuth—and then the bismuth was melted away. My job was to enclose the plutonium parts in nickel. So I had to do that in a vacuum. At first I had to do the electroplating. Then I had to put the nickel—what—the nickel cover, if you want—on the plutonium part, under vacuum, and solder a seal around the edge to make it—so it wouldn’t contact the air. And then it wouldn’t be as—you wouldn’t have to worry so much about contamination. But it had to be done in an atmosphere where, after the nickel part was put on the plutonium part, I sealed it with the vacuum and then it was not contaminated. The interesting part about that—one of the interesting parts—is that we were doing this for the Livermore National Lab, who was also at the time at a weapons facility. There were two: Los Alamos and Livermore. We were doing this for Livermore. As soon as the parts were finished, and I finished them, there would be a representative from Livermore waiting for the part. These parts, at times, were handed off, out the back door of 234-5 Building to this individual, who then took them to town, to the airport. I presume then, they were flown to Livermore. These tests at the time were conducted in the South Pacific—Eniwetok Islands. I never knew anything about the results. [LAUGHTER] Or what happened. But I suspect that these days we have artillery shells with plutonium weapons involved. O’Reagan: When you were working on all these—all these different processes, what sort of team were you working—were you working mostly on an independent sub-project, or did you have other people you were sort of working with day-to-day? Freshley: Well, when I did the differential thermal analysis, it was me. And when I was enclosing the plutonium parts in these nickel shells, that was pretty much me. Yeah. The group was small. I would guess—let’s see, there was—oh, three, four, five—I suspect there were less than ten people in the whole group. The machinist—there were two machinists—I guess I shouldn’t say who they were, but—they did very well—one of them did very well in the Tri-Cities. He had a big vision and— O’Reagan: I ask, because some of what you’re describing sounds—at least to my sort of ignorant ears—like applied chemistry as well as applied physics. Did you have a chemistry background, or was that not really necessary for what you were working on? Freshley: I did not have a chemistry background other than what you normally get in a four-year program. I did not have a metallurgy background, either. You know? So that all took—I had to get acquainted with that aspect of the world, and I found it to be very interesting. Later on in my life, I was sorry that I probably hadn’t taken metallurgy. O’Reagan: How much were you instructed specifically what to do versus sort of innovating yourself or figuring stuff out as you go? Freshley: Well, I’m sure that my manager—he had a degree from Montana School of Mines in Metallurgy. He was a very nice person. He—I’m sure I got instruction and help from him, because I needed it. Here’s this 21-year-old kid, just out of school, doesn’t know metallurgy from up. But I guess I was successful and it worked out. O’Reagan: Okay. Let’s see. Could you describe a typical workday within those first—you worked there for a long period of time overall, is that right? How long were you working at Hanford overall? Freshley: Overall? O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: [LAUGHTER] I started in 1951 and I retired in 1993. Then I consulted for a period after that. So you figure out the years. The first 14 years were with GE, then Battelle came in ’65, and I transferred to Battelle. I had the choice at that point to transfer to either Battelle or Westinghouse. Westinghouse was focused on the FFTF, and the development of that reactor. But I chose Battelle. O’Reagan: Why did you choose Battelle? Freshley: I don’t know. I think they were interested in things that I found fascinating. So I switched to Battelle, and have never been sorry. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: So when you were describing—is that amount of time that you were describing up to the end of your time at GE? Or was there still more that you were working on at GE before, or subsequent to—you were describing the different plutonium products. Freshley: I haven’t gotten to the end of GE yet. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Okay, great. I’d love to hear more. Freshley: Yeah. And then I got out—I was moved—I got into other things besides plutonium metallurgy. I might say that one of the—while I was at the plutonium lab, one of the technicians was working in a glovebox—do you know what a glovebox is?—that exploded. And it totally, totally contaminated the lab with plutonium. So we spent—the group—spent a lot of time decontaminating that room, and everything in it. We were successful enough that the walls were repainted to secure the plutonium contamination and everything. But then—I don’t know why I changed—but I stayed in 234-5 Building, and maybe—I don’t know, three, four, five years, possibly. Then I got involved in light-water reactor fuel development. That’s where I basically spent the rest of my career. In the late ‘50s, PRTR was under construction. We did—in those days, you were given—at least, in my case, you were given a lot of flexibility to do new things. That was really neat. Then—I didn’t write down the date, but in the late ‘50s, PRTR was under construction, and there was the second International Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy. We contributed to that publication—there were several publications. I didn’t get to go to the conference, but we contributed to that. Then I got involved in plutonium recycling in thermal reactors. I don’t know if you read this morning’s paper: there was an article there about a plutonium fuel—well, it’s called MOX—mixed oxide: plutonium oxide and uranium oxide, a mixture of fuel. This was at Savannah River, and they were building—or are supposedly building a facility for fabricating mixed oxide fuel for light-water reactors. But there have been some problems there, and it’s way behind schedule and over cost or whatever. But that doesn’t affect me. So I’m not involved in that. But anyway, I got involved in, like I say, fuel development—plutonium fuel development for light-water reactors. We had the liberty of doing a lot of different things. One of them was—oh, when we—at first, we found diluents for the plutonium. We irradiated and tested many diluents for plutonium. It had to be diluted—I mean, you can’t use pure plutonium. So I got into that, and we conducted lots and lots of testing of different diluents for plutonium in the MTR and ETR in Idaho—Materials Test Reactor and the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho. There was a lot of that, and the post-radiation examination was done in the 324 Building, where the major contamination still exists that they have to remove. It’s in the ground, and it’s a major decon project right now with whoever the contractor is, I don’t know. Anyway, we did a lot of testing in MTR and ETR with diluents. We developed a plutonium aluminum alloy spike enrichment element for PRTR. That was one of the activities. An aluminum plutonium spike element—excuse me—is only for spike enrichment in the core. These are spaced around for different neutronic effects. And the reason—it’s a difficult concept, and I don’t know how we got started on that, exactly, because the coefficient of thermal expansion of aluminum with a little bit of plutonium in it is a lot different than the Zircaloy cladding in which it is enclosed. So there were problems with that. Then—ah, let’s see—then I got into recycling the plutonium in thermal reactors, and that was a major government initiative to dispose of plutonium that was no longer needed. So we made mixed oxide fuels of different types. One of the types that seemed attractive at the time was a vibrationally compacted mixture of plutonium and uranium. That is a difficult thing to achieve, because we had to make plutonium—mixed oxide shot, and we vibrated it into the long rods. I remember setting up a shot tower in the basement of 326 Building to make uranium shot. That didn’t work out too good. We didn’t put any plutonium in 326 Building. O’Reagan: Is this still the late ‘50s or have we gotten into the early ‘60s yet? Freshley: Well this would be the late ‘50s. Well, we’re getting into the ‘60s, though, yeah. We did irradiation tests of aluminum plutonium spike elements in PRTR. I can’t remember what the plutonium concentration was, but then we started working on VIPAC, or vibrationally compacted fuel. It seemed like it would have advantages, because you’re not working with the small centered pellets. You can just pour the fissionable material into the tubes and VIPAC—vibrationally compact—it. So that—we did a lot of work on that, on VIPAC fuel, because we thought it would have an advantage fabrication-wise. But it had disadvantages, too, of course. You couldn’t compact it to the density that you would get with the centered pellet. There was another concern about it, and that is: fuel elements and reactors, the cladding fails from time to time. Still does. I think they suspect that there is a cladding failure in the Columbia Generating Station now. We needed to look at how they would perform with a cladding rupture. So we performed a test in PRTR in what was known as the Fuel Element Rupture Test Facility, FERTF. We were brave. O’Reagan: It sounds dangerous! Freshley: We put together a test element. The elements in PRTR were 19 rod clusters—I forget how long, but quite long. So what we did--we were adventuresome—we put a mixed oxide fuel element in PRTR, but first we drilled a hole in the cladding. John Fox, who you’ve interviewed, still can’t imagine that we did something like that. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: This probably couldn’t happen today [INAUDIBLE] Freshley: Oh, no. No way. Anyway, in 1966, we had that experiment in PRTR, and everything was going pretty well until they started cycling the reactor power a little bit. Well, from then on, things went from bad to worse. The cladding failed, but I mean, other than the small hole that we had drilled in it, it ruptured for over quite a distance. When it did that, it swelled, and it came in contact with the pressure tube of the FERTF. It caused that to fail also. So this made a horrible mess in PRTR. The reactor was shut down for I don’t know how long during the cleanup and the recovery from that. I can’t remember—I have some pictures if you’re interested—whether or not we were operating with fuel melting at the time. Because we wanted to get as much heat out of the element—or out of the rods as we could. Now, uranium melts at a little over 2,800 degrees centigrade. So we did a lot of work with not only VIPAC fuel—fuel melting in VIPAC fuel, but also in pellet fuel. Of course, you don’t do that sort of thing in real life. In a commercial light-water reactor—I don’t know what the maximum operating temperatures are in the uranium pellets, but it’s a long ways from melting, I guarantee you. O’Reagan: So did you get the data that you wanted from this rupture test? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, don’t do it. Yeah, and that was kind of actually the end of VIPAC fuel interest. It would definitely not have been commercially viable to have something like that going on in a power reactor. Of course, we learned what the rupture behavior—probably the worst case of what a ruptured VIPAC fuel might do in real life. So that was kind of the end of VIPAC fuel elements. But it was interesting! A really interesting thing to work with and try and develop. We had various—came up with various schemes for compacting UO2 and MOX with using a Dynapac machine, which is a high-energy compaction machine, to form particles. The ideal particle would have been a sphere in a varying size range, so you can maximize the density during VIPACing. But it didn’t work out. And I didn’t get fired. [LAUGHTER] But there were a lot of experiments. Also with looking at the transient behavior of VIPAC fuel, we even conducted some tests in a test reactor. You are placing pure PUO2 particles next to the cladding. Then doing a transient power test on that to see what kind of behavior you would get: how the PUO2 particle would behave. This was done in a reactor in Idaho called SPERT—I can’t tell you what the acronym stands for right now, but it was an interesting exercise. Had some—maybe the reactor was in San Jose; I’m not sure. Anyway, I had some companions who were working for GE; we worked together on that sort of thing. But then, this would have been in 1975, ’76. The light-water reactor power industry wanted to go to higher burnups. That is, leave the fuel in the reactor longer, so they would have longer times between maintenance shutdowns. At the time, the maintenance shutdowns were probably a year or less. So what happened when they went to higher temperatures and higher burnups, the fuel column in—these are ten or 12 feet long rods—would shorten. The fuel column, then, would shrink—would settle. So that caused a great deal of consternation in the light-water reactor power industry, because they had these voids, then, at the top of the fuel columns. Something we called the irradiation-induced densification occurred. So then there was a big effort, commercially, to find solutions to that, so we had—there was what was called a fuel densification program to solve this problem. The fuel industry—let’s see, how was this—they could not tolerate the core shrinking, and then that led to an understanding, or an investigation of N Reactor densification—just the neutron activity. But then they wanted to go to higher burnups. So they started leaving voids in the pellets to accommodate the fission products associated with the high burnup. That didn’t work out to well, either, because of the column shrinking. So that’s when we launched, or got into looking at the fuel densification behavior. The fuel vendors, then, came up with adding materials into the fuel—god, I can’t think of the name now—that would disappear on the high temperature centering of the pellet, leaving voids—controlled voids in the pellets. And they do that today. So the High Burnup Effect Program was a big program here at the lab for quite a long period of time. As a result of that, the fabricators reduced, by using—I can’t think of the name—reduced the density to accommodate the fission—oh, then they put in pore formers. And we, as the lab, were instrumental in coming up with suitable pore formers that would disappear upon centering, during the centering process, to leave these voids in the fuel pellets to accommodate the fission products. As a result of that, this proved to be very satisfactory. It resulted in a stable fuel column and the achievable burnups were increased significantly. You’re probably aware of the fact, now, that the Columbia—the reactor, generating—the Columbia Generating Station, now, can go on a two-year cycle. Meaning they don’t have to shut down for maintenance every year; they can go two years. So the achievement of satisfactory high burnup in reactor fuel was made. All of the other reactors, now—light-water reactors—use that technique. And in fact, as a result of that, the NRC—the Nuclear Regulatory Commission—has imposed a requirement that they test the thermal stability of centered pellets by exposing them to a heat treatment so they don’t shrink any more. Or the shrinkage would be very small. So we were instrumental in coming up with this out-of-reactor thermal test to test the stability, if you will, of the pellets. O’Reagan: You mentioned working with the light-water reactor industry. Were you working with different groups outside of the Hanford Site and outside of Battelle at that point, or was it still focused within the company? Freshley: I would say that the company, Battelle, the lab, was instrumental in these investigations. EPRI, the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, was a partner. In fact, they were kind of the driving force helping us put together a joint program where we had seven other contributors—financial sponsors to this program. We had meetings frequently on the progress of this effort. These seven sponsors came from all over the world: Japan, France, England—of course, the commercial operators in the United States were members. So we had this rather large, difficult to manage international program to develop these advanced fuels for high burnup. O’Reagan: So this wasn’t classified, or was it more of a sharing agreement with [INAUDIBLE] Not classified then? Freshley: No, it wasn’t classified. Well, maybe there might have been some—not security, but because the seven sponsors of this program were—they were paying money, you know? And contributing, and they wanted to protect their interests. O’Reagan: More like trade secrets, then, rather than— Freshley: Pardon? O’Reagan: So, more like trade secrets, then, rather than confidentiality. Freshley: Yeah, but I’d say, most of the—in the United States, the utilities that were operating light-water reactors contributed to this. Another contributor or sponsor was Germany. I can’t remember all of them. That made it real interesting. We had these technical reviews and meetings all over the world. So that made it kind of neat. O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: Yeah. But the program was very successful. I think I have some documents that describe it, if you’re interested. O’Reagan: Yeah, absolutely. Freshley: Okay. And then—I’m not covering this too well—I thought my notes would be more complete but they’re not. [LAUGHTER] Then I got into—this was late in my professional career. There was a reactor in Savannah River, and I didn’t—I can’t tell you the name of it—that produced tritium for thermonuclear weapons. It had to be shut down because of safety reasons. So I got involved in what was called tritium target development for light-water reactors. Because you need tritium for a thermonuclear device. What we did was, the way we did it, we irradiated lithium metal—I shouldn’t say irradiated; we exposed lithium metal to a neutron environment in light-water reactors. The idea being to generate tritium, the gas. Well, what happens is lithium is a metal similar, maybe—low-melting, kind of—to aluminum. It’s not compatible with many cladding or enclosure materials. So we exposed lithium to neutrons to form tritium. In doing that, you had to—because the tritium is an isotope of helium, you had to tie it up some way and contain it. You didn’t want it to get out of the cladding, because we were using zirconium cladding. And then inside of this target, we used a getter for the tritium to collect the tritium and try and keep it enclosed. In fact, I’ve learned recently that there are some commercial reactors back east that have tritium target elements in their cores now to produce tritium for thermonuclear devices. O’Reagan: I imagine that’s something the government wouldn’t want other places to be doing then. Freshley: Well, probably not, yeah. You can google tritium production and you’ll get information on the process—well, I don’t know about the detail of the process, but information on producing tritium in light-water reactors. Then as I was nearing retirement, I got out of that and was taken over by a couple other people. But it was interesting, and so that’s kind of—I enjoyed doing this sort of thing a lot. Exploring and testing and so on. O’Reagan: Was the tritium work also unclassified then, or was that back to the classified world? Freshley: I think it was in the classified world, perhaps, at the time. Although the lady who currently manages that project at the lab here gave a talk on these elements, these targets, and some of the latest things that they were doing. This was a while back, that she gave this talk. But there were parts of the talk she could not discuss. These parts that she couldn’t discuss are unknown to me and foreign to me, because a lot of that has happened since I retired. See, I retired in ’93—1993. That was—what—25, 26 years ago. O’Reagan: When you moved from GE to Battelle, did you ever notice any sorts of differences in your work experiences in sort of general terms? Freshley: No, not really. They were the same people involved, in my case. The big difference is that under DoE at the time—I think it was DoE, maybe AEC—we did not earn credits for service. So 14 years, I didn’t get any—[LAUGHTER]—credits for service which would help my pension, until Battelle came. Then that changed. I do get a GE pension still, but it’s not very much. O’Reagan: Let’s see. Are there sort of—one thing I’m interested in is how working on Hanford—people’s experiences changed over time as the decades went on, how things changed. Anything sort of leaps to your mind in those regards? Freshley: Well, one thing that comes to mind to me is things that you do if you’re in the lab and so on, are a lot more regulated now than they were back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Can you imagine opening the door and getting somebody a plutonium part that he takes off with and goes to Livermore? O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: You don’t do that. O’Reagan: Right. Let’s see. Freshley: So things are a lot more regulated now. And I would say a lot more sophisticated, too. I am aware of the fact that AREVA, here, the fuel fabricator, has developed since my time some very sophisticated models on fuel performance. We didn’t have models like that in those days. O’Reagan: Interesting. One of the things we’re also trying to get at, which is why a lot of this has been very useful, is what was done on the Hanford site that was sort of innovative or hadn’t been mastered elsewhere? Because you hear sort of both sides of the Hanford legacy, and a lot of these are harder to get at without having classified sources. So the unclassified versions people could tell us about are very interesting. Freshley: Well, I would say, that except for my time in the plutonium laboratory, things were pretty much unclassified. The development of these different fuels—fuel materials—and testing them and so on. I would say that was pretty much unclassified. O’Reagan: Interesting. Freshley: Now, I’m sure that AREVA here has some proprietary interests in their fuel modeling these days. But I’ve seen some of it; it’s a very sophisticated code and model. O’Reagan: What was it like living in Richland, let’s say the ‘40s and ‘50s first and ask for the later parts afterwards. Freshley: Well, I can tell you my experience. O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: First, as I said, I lived in the Army barracks. Then I moved to the dorms that were on Lee. This was before I was married. I was here for a year before I got married, and then when I got married, we got access to one of the Gribble apartments. I don’t know if they’re still there on Gribble Street? I think, maybe, Kadlec has taken all of that over now and destroyed all of the old buildings. But they were two-story apartments. They were really nice. Then after that, we lived in that apartment for five years, my wife tells me. And then we bought a ranch house. It wasn’t a purchase from the government; it was after the ranch houses and the other government houses were sold off by the government. This fella was in a position, a management position, in DoE—I think it might have been AEC at the time. And we bought this ranch house from him on Burch Street in Richland. We paid him $10,000 for it. And then from there—we lived there for a few years, and then we bought a house on Howell. And from Howell, we built a house in Country Ridge. That’s where we live now. We’ve lived there for 20—over 25 years. O’Reagan: Interesting. I was just thinking back on the timeline there. I know for a long time people couldn’t buy houses in Richland. So I guess you got your first place not too long after you were allowed to? Freshley: Oh, I think it was very soon. I can’t remember his name, but he was in some management position in DoE and wanted to sell his house. So we bought it from him and got the title and made some changes and so on. Yeah, it was among the first government houses that were sold privately. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. What was life like in the community around there? Do you remember any sort of community events? Freshley: Yup. Town Theater was there. Actually showing movies, of course. Mm, I don’t know how to answer that. I would say it was pretty normal. Did a lot of outdoor activities, a lot of snow skiing at Tollgate—I don’t know if you know where Tollgate is. O’Reagan: I’m new to the area. Freshley: Oh, are you? Okay. It’s in the Blue Mountains. A lot of boating activities. We had a canoe and enjoyed that. Things like that. O’Reagan: Great. Freshley: Pretty normal, I would say. Wouldn’t you? O’Reagan: Sure. Freshley: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Did you ever feel like the sort of larger scale politics of the day ever impacted your life whether—Cold War security issues or changing Presidents or any of that? Freshley: I can’t relate to that. I was not politically inclined like some people you know. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Sure. Let’s see. This is sort of a similar question, so we don’t have to go into too much detail. Any memories of the social scene, local politics, or other insights into life in the Tri-Cities over the time you lived here? Freshley: Over what time period? Oh. O’Reagan: In the time you lived here. Freshley: Well, like I said, I’m not politically oriented, so if there were these things happening, I was pretty isolated from them. O’Reagan: Okay. Could you describe any ways in which security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Freshley: No, I really can’t, except 234-5 Building, every time you went out there, you had to have your badge and security. I think even in the Plutonium Finishing Plant, there probably—I think there were—additional security requirements. O’Reagan: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] Well, I wouldn’t know how to answer that. I would say, from my experience, it was very normal. I guess if there were security requirements and things like that, you just kind of got used to it, and you didn’t—it wasn’t something that stood out. I think that’s true. O’Reagan: Okay. So what haven’t I asked about that I should ask about? What else is there I should be asking about? Freshley: Well, how do I answer that? I don’t know. I think we’ve covered my experience pretty thoroughly. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Well, we don’t have to dwell on it if nothing comes to mind. Freshley: No. O’Reagan: It is an open-ended question. Freshley: Well, what happened, after we bought our ranch house, the government didn’t come around and change our light bulbs anymore. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Oh, really? Did you have to—how much of a transition was that once you sort of became a homeowner? Was it--? Freshley: Oh, it was a good transition, from my standpoint. You could do things—like we made modifications to the house. It was our house. It wasn’t controlled by the government—or owned by the government. So that made a big difference. You had a lot more freedom and so on in what you did and how you did it. O’Reagan: All right. Well, thanks so much. This is very, very interesting, very useful. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:06:12 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 3706 Building 234-5 Building 231-Z building 324 Building N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1993 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Fox, John Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Max Freshley Description An account of the resource An interview with Max Freshley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-1-11 231-Z building 234-5 building 300 Area 324 Building 3706 Building Battelle General Electric Housing N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Richland (Wash.) Secrecy Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbab9aaad909435686a751bcbe39d438b.JPG 66ab21e45337864e82e518e34179747c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1397d9eb82d20248c32d7079d03d7288.mp4 f4cbd8641a1b1edcb6e4447010862c8d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maxwell Freshley Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: First off, would you please say and spell your name for us? Maxwell Freshley: My legal name is Maxwell Freshley, F-R-E-S-H-L-E-Y. Not many people around here know me by that name. I go by Max. O’Reagan: Okay, thanks. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral interview history here on January 11th, 2016. This interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Freshley about his experiences working at the Hanford site. To start us off, would you tell us maybe some of your life up, before you came to this area? Freshley: Well, I was born and raised in Portland, Oregon. I graduated from the University of Portland in 1951 with a degree in physics. I was offered a tech grad position on the site here. At the time, it was operated by General Electric Company, and this was—I started work here in June of 1951. Okay. So I guess prior to coming here, my having been raised in Portland, and that’s where I went to school, my extended experiences were rather limited. That’s kind of what happened. So I came here in June of 1951, fresh out of school, I wasn’t married at the time. First place I lived was in the Army barracks in north Richland. I can’t tell you about how long I lived there, but while I was living in north Richland in the barracks, I did not have a car. So being kind of isolated out north was a bit of a challenge. So as soon as I could find somebody who would loan me some money, I bought a brand new Ford and that solved a lot of my problems. And then sometime during that first year, I was moved to one of the dorms in Richland. I think the dorms were located on Lee Boulevard. It was close to—I’m calling it a drugstore. But it was kind of like a Payless. I don’t think that was the right name at that time. But they had a restaurant—they served food in this drugstore. So that’s where I would eat. O’Reagan: Had you heard about Hanford before you came here? Freshley: Not really. I really hadn’t heard about it. It was all secret, you know? O’Reagan: Right. Were you aware of the sort of connection with the atomic bomb before you got here? Freshley: I’d have to say I was not. Although while I was still going to school—still in school—when was the Nagasaki ignited? O’Reagan: ’45, I believe? Freshley: ’45? O’Reagan: I think so. Freshley: That—oh, okay. O’Reagan: It was the very end of the Second World War. Freshley: Yeah. Well, I might’ve heard of that. Yeah. O’Reagan: What was your first impression of Richland and this area? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] First impression was living in the barracks out in north Richland-- [LAUGHTER] was not too great. Of course, my first impression was it was darn hot here, coming here in June. It was very warm. My future wife and her mother brought me to Richland from Portland and dropped me off. [LAUGHTER] So things kind of went from there. O’Reagan: Sure. So we were going to ask about where you were living, but we already addressed that to some degree. What was life like in the barracks? Freshley: Oh. I would say very basic. Of course, in the dorm rooms that were assigned, you always had a roommate that you lived with. So I became, of course, very familiar with my roommates. When I moved from the barracks to Richland, I had a different roommate. So I made acquaintances with two people like that. They were both scientists, so we got along really well. In fact, one of them is still living in Richland. O’Reagan: What kind of work did you do at Hanford, and where on the site did you work? Freshley: Well, first of all, I worked in 300 Area in 3706 Building. I was—they assigned me a position in the Graphite Group. We were studying graphite, the moderator in the reactors. One of the things that was going on at the time—and I can’t tell you what reactor it was—but the graphite core was swelling. It was—I don’t know if it had come in contact yet with the upper shield, but it was growing. I was assigned to two people in the Graphite Group. We went and extracted samples of graphite from the core of this reactor. The thing that they had set up to do that, of course, was already here. So we were extracting samples—core samples. What the purpose of my job was to determine the annealing temperature of the graphite, so that if they raised the temperature in the core to a point where graphite annealing started occurring, then the core would shrink back and not interfere with the top shield. So I think they were looking for somebody—[LAUGHTER] I won’t say it. But anyway, I was assigned the position or job of taking these graphite samples and investigating the annealing temperature. What we used was a Fresnel diffractometer. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that, but interference rings from this interferometer would be displayed. It was my job to count the rings. It was a very tedious job. I’m sure that these two fellas didn’t want to do that, so they found me, and I did it. These rotations were—honestly I can’t remember whether they were three months or six months, but you would rotate from one position to another. I don’t remember if you could choose your positions—your rotations—I guess it probably depended on whether or not there was something available or not to go to. So I fulfilled my position in the Graphite Group. I didn’t want to stay in the Graphite Group, so I moved on. O’Reagan: Before we move on, I have a quick question for you. This is a little bit off-script, but I have an undergraduate degree in physics. Freshley: Uh-huh. O’Reagan: I was reading a while back that when you started heating up the reactors, it caused that expansion to go back, and that sounds like what you’re describing. Freshley: Mm-hm. O’Reagan: But what is annealing? Freshley: It’s heating to a temperature where the damage caused by the neutron radiation would be annealed physically. So the core would shrink back. But you had to get it up to a certain temperature, and you didn’t want to overheat it, because if you get it too hot, then the core—the graphite would oxidize. That would not be good. But I think the cores were enclosed in an argon atmosphere, as I remember. O’Reagan: It just surprised me, of course—I expected you get something hot, it expands. But now we’re saying you get it hot and it shrinks! Freshley: Yeah, that’s right. But when you’re looking at the diffraction rings on the interferometer, you can tell by the movement of the rings when you are reaching the annealing temperature. So either they—and I can’t honestly remember the details here, whether the rings did not move as fast, or whether they might have even changed direction. O’Reagan: Interesting. Freshley: So I had an early experience with a graphite-moderated production reactor. O’Reagan: What was it—you said you moved on from graphite to something else? Freshley: Oh yeah. My second assignment was in the metallurgy laboratory in 234-5 Building. 234-5 Building now is known as—god. Hm. Plutonium—it’s the one that you read a lot-- O’Reagan: Plutonium Finishing Plant? Freshley: Pardon me? O’Reagan: Is it the plutonium finishing? Freshley: Yeah, Plutonium Finishing Plant where the plutonium buttons were received and machined to a hockey-type shape. Well, they were—actually, they were reduced to form the metal, and I was not involved in that. But I was in the Plutonium Metallurgy Lab, which was at one end of the Plutonium Finishing Plant. I don’t think there are many or any people left around who know of that. I can’t think of anybody that I worked with during that period who’s still around. But we had a Plutonium Metallurgy Lab, and my manager was a very nice fella. This, now, was in the early ‘50s. One thing that he wanted me to do—and I don’t think that what I did was original research, because I think all of the original research was probably done at Los Alamos, which was the renowned weapons facility. He wanted me to investigate the low temperature phase changes in plutonium. So what I did—and that’s important because phase changes in plutonium or any metal creates a dimensional change. And a dimensional change is not something that you want in a weapon or a bomb, because it interferes with the efficiency of the bomb. So here I was, fresh out of school and didn’t know from up. Anyway, I put together what’s called a differential thermal analysis apparatus. Are you familiar with that? O’Reagan: I know the individual terms. Freshley: Okay. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what I did. I ran low temperature phase studies on plutonium—pure plutonium to detect these low temperature phase changes, which were very—since they were low temperature, they were very difficult to pick up, because there wasn’t much energy exchange during the phase change. Then, since that was not something you would want in a weapon or a bomb, small alloy additions were added to the plutonium to stabilize the low temperature, so you didn’t have these low temperature changes. All of this at the time was quite classified, which make it extra interesting, I guess. But when I went out to 234-5 Building in the plutonium lab, we were—there were three or four of us—we were assigned a car. So we had a car that we could go back and forth in, to work. That made it pretty nice, because we didn’t have to ride the bus and all of that. Then—this is something else that I doubt very much that anyone knew about at the time. It was the fabrication of plutonium parts for artillery shells. We cast plutonium in what was known as the 231-Z Building. We didn’t do it in the 234-5 Building. 231 was just across the street. In that building, I was not involved in the casting or the machining, but the parts were machined in that building. Then they were brought over to 234-5 Building in the Plutonium Metallurgy Lab. Because plutonium would oxidize and so on—so my job was to produce pure nickel coatings. But I don’t mean coatings like were attached. We used bismuth, which has a low melting temperature and it’s stable, to machine the exact replica of the plutonium part. Then, my job was to make—with electroplated nickel onto this bismuth—and then the bismuth was melted away. My job was to enclose the plutonium parts in nickel. So I had to do that in a vacuum. At first I had to do the electroplating. Then I had to put the nickel—what—the nickel cover, if you want—on the plutonium part, under vacuum, and solder a seal around the edge to make it—so it wouldn’t contact the air. And then it wouldn’t be as—you wouldn’t have to worry so much about contamination. But it had to be done in an atmosphere where, after the nickel part was put on the plutonium part, I sealed it with the vacuum and then it was not contaminated. The interesting part about that—one of the interesting parts—is that we were doing this for the Livermore National Lab, who was also at the time at a weapons facility. There were two: Los Alamos and Livermore. We were doing this for Livermore. As soon as the parts were finished, and I finished them, there would be a representative from Livermore waiting for the part. These parts, at times, were handed off, out the back door of 234-5 Building to this individual, who then took them to town, to the airport. I presume then, they were flown to Livermore. These tests at the time were conducted in the South Pacific—Eniwetok Islands. I never knew anything about the results. [LAUGHTER] Or what happened. But I suspect that these days we have artillery shells with plutonium weapons involved. O’Reagan: When you were working on all these—all these different processes, what sort of team were you working—were you working mostly on an independent sub-project, or did you have other people you were sort of working with day-to-day? Freshley: Well, when I did the differential thermal analysis, it was me. And when I was enclosing the plutonium parts in these nickel shells, that was pretty much me. Yeah. The group was small. I would guess—let’s see, there was—oh, three, four, five—I suspect there were less than ten people in the whole group. The machinist—there were two machinists—I guess I shouldn’t say who they were, but—they did very well—one of them did very well in the Tri-Cities. He had a big vision and— O’Reagan: I ask, because some of what you’re describing sounds—at least to my sort of ignorant ears—like applied chemistry as well as applied physics. Did you have a chemistry background, or was that not really necessary for what you were working on? Freshley: I did not have a chemistry background other than what you normally get in a four-year program. I did not have a metallurgy background, either. You know? So that all took—I had to get acquainted with that aspect of the world, and I found it to be very interesting. Later on in my life, I was sorry that I probably hadn’t taken metallurgy. O’Reagan: How much were you instructed specifically what to do versus sort of innovating yourself or figuring stuff out as you go? Freshley: Well, I’m sure that my manager—he had a degree from Montana School of Mines in Metallurgy. He was a very nice person. He—I’m sure I got instruction and help from him, because I needed it. Here’s this 21-year-old kid, just out of school, doesn’t know metallurgy from up. But I guess I was successful and it worked out. O’Reagan: Okay. Let’s see. Could you describe a typical workday within those first—you worked there for a long period of time overall, is that right? How long were you working at Hanford overall? Freshley: Overall? O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: [LAUGHTER] I started in 1951 and I retired in 1993. Then I consulted for a period after that. So you figure out the years. The first 14 years were with GE, then Battelle came in ’65, and I transferred to Battelle. I had the choice at that point to transfer to either Battelle or Westinghouse. Westinghouse was focused on the FFTF, and the development of that reactor. But I chose Battelle. O’Reagan: Why did you choose Battelle? Freshley: I don’t know. I think they were interested in things that I found fascinating. So I switched to Battelle, and have never been sorry. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: So when you were describing—is that amount of time that you were describing up to the end of your time at GE? Or was there still more that you were working on at GE before, or subsequent to—you were describing the different plutonium products. Freshley: I haven’t gotten to the end of GE yet. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Okay, great. I’d love to hear more. Freshley: Yeah. And then I got out—I was moved—I got into other things besides plutonium metallurgy. I might say that one of the—while I was at the plutonium lab, one of the technicians was working in a glovebox—do you know what a glovebox is?—that exploded. And it totally, totally contaminated the lab with plutonium. So we spent—the group—spent a lot of time decontaminating that room, and everything in it. We were successful enough that the walls were repainted to secure the plutonium contamination and everything. But then—I don’t know why I changed—but I stayed in 234-5 Building, and maybe—I don’t know, three, four, five years, possibly. Then I got involved in light-water reactor fuel development. That’s where I basically spent the rest of my career. In the late ‘50s, PRTR was under construction. We did—in those days, you were given—at least, in my case, you were given a lot of flexibility to do new things. That was really neat. Then—I didn’t write down the date, but in the late ‘50s, PRTR was under construction, and there was the second International Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy. We contributed to that publication—there were several publications. I didn’t get to go to the conference, but we contributed to that. Then I got involved in plutonium recycling in thermal reactors. I don’t know if you read this morning’s paper: there was an article there about a plutonium fuel—well, it’s called MOX—mixed oxide: plutonium oxide and uranium oxide, a mixture of fuel. This was at Savannah River, and they were building—or are supposedly building a facility for fabricating mixed oxide fuel for light-water reactors. But there have been some problems there, and it’s way behind schedule and over cost or whatever. But that doesn’t affect me. So I’m not involved in that. But anyway, I got involved in, like I say, fuel development—plutonium fuel development for light-water reactors. We had the liberty of doing a lot of different things. One of them was—oh, when we—at first, we found diluents for the plutonium. We irradiated and tested many diluents for plutonium. It had to be diluted—I mean, you can’t use pure plutonium. So I got into that, and we conducted lots and lots of testing of different diluents for plutonium in the MTR and ETR in Idaho—Materials Test Reactor and the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho. There was a lot of that, and the post-radiation examination was done in the 324 Building, where the major contamination still exists that they have to remove. It’s in the ground, and it’s a major decon project right now with whoever the contractor is, I don’t know. Anyway, we did a lot of testing in MTR and ETR with diluents. We developed a plutonium aluminum alloy spike enrichment element for PRTR. That was one of the activities. An aluminum plutonium spike element—excuse me—is only for spike enrichment in the core. These are spaced around for different neutronic effects. And the reason—it’s a difficult concept, and I don’t know how we got started on that, exactly, because the coefficient of thermal expansion of aluminum with a little bit of plutonium in it is a lot different than the Zircaloy cladding in which it is enclosed. So there were problems with that. Then—ah, let’s see—then I got into recycling the plutonium in thermal reactors, and that was a major government initiative to dispose of plutonium that was no longer needed. So we made mixed oxide fuels of different types. One of the types that seemed attractive at the time was a vibrationally compacted mixture of plutonium and uranium. That is a difficult thing to achieve, because we had to make plutonium—mixed oxide shot, and we vibrated it into the long rods. I remember setting up a shot tower in the basement of 326 Building to make uranium shot. That didn’t work out too good. We didn’t put any plutonium in 326 Building. O’Reagan: Is this still the late ‘50s or have we gotten into the early ‘60s yet? Freshley: Well this would be the late ‘50s. Well, we’re getting into the ‘60s, though, yeah. We did irradiation tests of aluminum plutonium spike elements in PRTR. I can’t remember what the plutonium concentration was, but then we started working on VIPAC, or vibrationally compacted fuel. It seemed like it would have advantages, because you’re not working with the small centered pellets. You can just pour the fissionable material into the tubes and VIPAC—vibrationally compact—it. So that—we did a lot of work on that, on VIPAC fuel, because we thought it would have an advantage fabrication-wise. But it had disadvantages, too, of course. You couldn’t compact it to the density that you would get with the centered pellet. There was another concern about it, and that is: fuel elements and reactors, the cladding fails from time to time. Still does. I think they suspect that there is a cladding failure in the Columbia Generating Station now. We needed to look at how they would perform with a cladding rupture. So we performed a test in PRTR in what was known as the Fuel Element Rupture Test Facility, FERTF. We were brave. O’Reagan: It sounds dangerous! Freshley: We put together a test element. The elements in PRTR were 19 rod clusters—I forget how long, but quite long. So what we did--we were adventuresome—we put a mixed oxide fuel element in PRTR, but first we drilled a hole in the cladding. John Fox, who you’ve interviewed, still can’t imagine that we did something like that. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: This probably couldn’t happen today [INAUDIBLE] Freshley: Oh, no. No way. Anyway, in 1966, we had that experiment in PRTR, and everything was going pretty well until they started cycling the reactor power a little bit. Well, from then on, things went from bad to worse. The cladding failed, but I mean, other than the small hole that we had drilled in it, it ruptured for over quite a distance. When it did that, it swelled, and it came in contact with the pressure tube of the FERTF. It caused that to fail also. So this made a horrible mess in PRTR. The reactor was shut down for I don’t know how long during the cleanup and the recovery from that. I can’t remember—I have some pictures if you’re interested—whether or not we were operating with fuel melting at the time. Because we wanted to get as much heat out of the element—or out of the rods as we could. Now, uranium melts at a little over 2,800 degrees centigrade. So we did a lot of work with not only VIPAC fuel—fuel melting in VIPAC fuel, but also in pellet fuel. Of course, you don’t do that sort of thing in real life. In a commercial light-water reactor—I don’t know what the maximum operating temperatures are in the uranium pellets, but it’s a long ways from melting, I guarantee you. O’Reagan: So did you get the data that you wanted from this rupture test? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, don’t do it. Yeah, and that was kind of actually the end of VIPAC fuel interest. It would definitely not have been commercially viable to have something like that going on in a power reactor. Of course, we learned what the rupture behavior—probably the worst case of what a ruptured VIPAC fuel might do in real life. So that was kind of the end of VIPAC fuel elements. But it was interesting! A really interesting thing to work with and try and develop. We had various—came up with various schemes for compacting UO2 and MOX with using a Dynapac machine, which is a high-energy compaction machine, to form particles. The ideal particle would have been a sphere in a varying size range, so you can maximize the density during VIPACing. But it didn’t work out. And I didn’t get fired. [LAUGHTER] But there were a lot of experiments. Also with looking at the transient behavior of VIPAC fuel, we even conducted some tests in a test reactor. You are placing pure PUO2 particles next to the cladding. Then doing a transient power test on that to see what kind of behavior you would get: how the PUO2 particle would behave. This was done in a reactor in Idaho called SPERT—I can’t tell you what the acronym stands for right now, but it was an interesting exercise. Had some—maybe the reactor was in San Jose; I’m not sure. Anyway, I had some companions who were working for GE; we worked together on that sort of thing. But then, this would have been in 1975, ’76. The light-water reactor power industry wanted to go to higher burnups. That is, leave the fuel in the reactor longer, so they would have longer times between maintenance shutdowns. At the time, the maintenance shutdowns were probably a year or less. So what happened when they went to higher temperatures and higher burnups, the fuel column in—these are ten or 12 feet long rods—would shorten. The fuel column, then, would shrink—would settle. So that caused a great deal of consternation in the light-water reactor power industry, because they had these voids, then, at the top of the fuel columns. Something we called the irradiation-induced densification occurred. So then there was a big effort, commercially, to find solutions to that, so we had—there was what was called a fuel densification program to solve this problem. The fuel industry—let’s see, how was this—they could not tolerate the core shrinking, and then that led to an understanding, or an investigation of N Reactor densification—just the neutron activity. But then they wanted to go to higher burnups. So they started leaving voids in the pellets to accommodate the fission products associated with the high burnup. That didn’t work out to well, either, because of the column shrinking. So that’s when we launched, or got into looking at the fuel densification behavior. The fuel vendors, then, came up with adding materials into the fuel—god, I can’t think of the name now—that would disappear on the high temperature centering of the pellet, leaving voids—controlled voids in the pellets. And they do that today. So the High Burnup Effect Program was a big program here at the lab for quite a long period of time. As a result of that, the fabricators reduced, by using—I can’t think of the name—reduced the density to accommodate the fission—oh, then they put in pore formers. And we, as the lab, were instrumental in coming up with suitable pore formers that would disappear upon centering, during the centering process, to leave these voids in the fuel pellets to accommodate the fission products. As a result of that, this proved to be very satisfactory. It resulted in a stable fuel column and the achievable burnups were increased significantly. You’re probably aware of the fact, now, that the Columbia—the reactor, generating—the Columbia Generating Station, now, can go on a two-year cycle. Meaning they don’t have to shut down for maintenance every year; they can go two years. So the achievement of satisfactory high burnup in reactor fuel was made. All of the other reactors, now—light-water reactors—use that technique. And in fact, as a result of that, the NRC—the Nuclear Regulatory Commission—has imposed a requirement that they test the thermal stability of centered pellets by exposing them to a heat treatment so they don’t shrink any more. Or the shrinkage would be very small. So we were instrumental in coming up with this out-of-reactor thermal test to test the stability, if you will, of the pellets. O’Reagan: You mentioned working with the light-water reactor industry. Were you working with different groups outside of the Hanford Site and outside of Battelle at that point, or was it still focused within the company? Freshley: I would say that the company, Battelle, the lab, was instrumental in these investigations. EPRI, the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, was a partner. In fact, they were kind of the driving force helping us put together a joint program where we had seven other contributors—financial sponsors to this program. We had meetings frequently on the progress of this effort. These seven sponsors came from all over the world: Japan, France, England—of course, the commercial operators in the United States were members. So we had this rather large, difficult to manage international program to develop these advanced fuels for high burnup. O’Reagan: So this wasn’t classified, or was it more of a sharing agreement with [INAUDIBLE] Not classified then? Freshley: No, it wasn’t classified. Well, maybe there might have been some—not security, but because the seven sponsors of this program were—they were paying money, you know? And contributing, and they wanted to protect their interests. O’Reagan: More like trade secrets, then, rather than— Freshley: Pardon? O’Reagan: So, more like trade secrets, then, rather than confidentiality. Freshley: Yeah, but I’d say, most of the—in the United States, the utilities that were operating light-water reactors contributed to this. Another contributor or sponsor was Germany. I can’t remember all of them. That made it real interesting. We had these technical reviews and meetings all over the world. So that made it kind of neat. O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: Yeah. But the program was very successful. I think I have some documents that describe it, if you’re interested. O’Reagan: Yeah, absolutely. Freshley: Okay. And then—I’m not covering this too well—I thought my notes would be more complete but they’re not. [LAUGHTER] Then I got into—this was late in my professional career. There was a reactor in Savannah River, and I didn’t—I can’t tell you the name of it—that produced tritium for thermonuclear weapons. It had to be shut down because of safety reasons. So I got involved in what was called tritium target development for light-water reactors. Because you need tritium for a thermonuclear device. What we did was, the way we did it, we irradiated lithium metal—I shouldn’t say irradiated; we exposed lithium metal to a neutron environment in light-water reactors. The idea being to generate tritium, the gas. Well, what happens is lithium is a metal similar, maybe—low-melting, kind of—to aluminum. It’s not compatible with many cladding or enclosure materials. So we exposed lithium to neutrons to form tritium. In doing that, you had to—because the tritium is an isotope of helium, you had to tie it up some way and contain it. You didn’t want it to get out of the cladding, because we were using zirconium cladding. And then inside of this target, we used a getter for the tritium to collect the tritium and try and keep it enclosed. In fact, I’ve learned recently that there are some commercial reactors back east that have tritium target elements in their cores now to produce tritium for thermonuclear devices. O’Reagan: I imagine that’s something the government wouldn’t want other places to be doing then. Freshley: Well, probably not, yeah. You can google tritium production and you’ll get information on the process—well, I don’t know about the detail of the process, but information on producing tritium in light-water reactors. Then as I was nearing retirement, I got out of that and was taken over by a couple other people. But it was interesting, and so that’s kind of—I enjoyed doing this sort of thing a lot. Exploring and testing and so on. O’Reagan: Was the tritium work also unclassified then, or was that back to the classified world? Freshley: I think it was in the classified world, perhaps, at the time. Although the lady who currently manages that project at the lab here gave a talk on these elements, these targets, and some of the latest things that they were doing. This was a while back, that she gave this talk. But there were parts of the talk she could not discuss. These parts that she couldn’t discuss are unknown to me and foreign to me, because a lot of that has happened since I retired. See, I retired in ’93—1993. That was—what—25, 26 years ago. O’Reagan: When you moved from GE to Battelle, did you ever notice any sorts of differences in your work experiences in sort of general terms? Freshley: No, not really. They were the same people involved, in my case. The big difference is that under DoE at the time—I think it was DoE, maybe AEC—we did not earn credits for service. So 14 years, I didn’t get any—[LAUGHTER]—credits for service which would help my pension, until Battelle came. Then that changed. I do get a GE pension still, but it’s not very much. O’Reagan: Let’s see. Are there sort of—one thing I’m interested in is how working on Hanford—people’s experiences changed over time as the decades went on, how things changed. Anything sort of leaps to your mind in those regards? Freshley: Well, one thing that comes to mind to me is things that you do if you’re in the lab and so on, are a lot more regulated now than they were back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Can you imagine opening the door and getting somebody a plutonium part that he takes off with and goes to Livermore? O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: You don’t do that. O’Reagan: Right. Let’s see. Freshley: So things are a lot more regulated now. And I would say a lot more sophisticated, too. I am aware of the fact that AREVA, here, the fuel fabricator, has developed since my time some very sophisticated models on fuel performance. We didn’t have models like that in those days. O’Reagan: Interesting. One of the things we’re also trying to get at, which is why a lot of this has been very useful, is what was done on the Hanford site that was sort of innovative or hadn’t been mastered elsewhere? Because you hear sort of both sides of the Hanford legacy, and a lot of these are harder to get at without having classified sources. So the unclassified versions people could tell us about are very interesting. Freshley: Well, I would say, that except for my time in the plutonium laboratory, things were pretty much unclassified. The development of these different fuels—fuel materials—and testing them and so on. I would say that was pretty much unclassified. O’Reagan: Interesting. Freshley: Now, I’m sure that AREVA here has some proprietary interests in their fuel modeling these days. But I’ve seen some of it; it’s a very sophisticated code and model. O’Reagan: What was it like living in Richland, let’s say the ‘40s and ‘50s first and ask for the later parts afterwards. Freshley: Well, I can tell you my experience. O’Reagan: Yeah. Freshley: First, as I said, I lived in the Army barracks. Then I moved to the dorms that were on Lee. This was before I was married. I was here for a year before I got married, and then when I got married, we got access to one of the Gribble apartments. I don’t know if they’re still there on Gribble Street? I think, maybe, Kadlec has taken all of that over now and destroyed all of the old buildings. But they were two-story apartments. They were really nice. Then after that, we lived in that apartment for five years, my wife tells me. And then we bought a ranch house. It wasn’t a purchase from the government; it was after the ranch houses and the other government houses were sold off by the government. This fella was in a position, a management position, in DoE—I think it might have been AEC at the time. And we bought this ranch house from him on Burch Street in Richland. We paid him $10,000 for it. And then from there—we lived there for a few years, and then we bought a house on Howell. And from Howell, we built a house in Country Ridge. That’s where we live now. We’ve lived there for 20—over 25 years. O’Reagan: Interesting. I was just thinking back on the timeline there. I know for a long time people couldn’t buy houses in Richland. So I guess you got your first place not too long after you were allowed to? Freshley: Oh, I think it was very soon. I can’t remember his name, but he was in some management position in DoE and wanted to sell his house. So we bought it from him and got the title and made some changes and so on. Yeah, it was among the first government houses that were sold privately. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. What was life like in the community around there? Do you remember any sort of community events? Freshley: Yup. Town Theater was there. Actually showing movies, of course. Mm, I don’t know how to answer that. I would say it was pretty normal. Did a lot of outdoor activities, a lot of snow skiing at Tollgate—I don’t know if you know where Tollgate is. O’Reagan: I’m new to the area. Freshley: Oh, are you? Okay. It’s in the Blue Mountains. A lot of boating activities. We had a canoe and enjoyed that. Things like that. O’Reagan: Great. Freshley: Pretty normal, I would say. Wouldn’t you? O’Reagan: Sure. Freshley: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Did you ever feel like the sort of larger scale politics of the day ever impacted your life whether—Cold War security issues or changing Presidents or any of that? Freshley: I can’t relate to that. I was not politically inclined like some people you know. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Sure. Let’s see. This is sort of a similar question, so we don’t have to go into too much detail. Any memories of the social scene, local politics, or other insights into life in the Tri-Cities over the time you lived here? Freshley: Over what time period? Oh. O’Reagan: In the time you lived here. Freshley: Well, like I said, I’m not politically oriented, so if there were these things happening, I was pretty isolated from them. O’Reagan: Okay. Could you describe any ways in which security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Freshley: No, I really can’t, except 234-5 Building, every time you went out there, you had to have your badge and security. I think even in the Plutonium Finishing Plant, there probably—I think there were—additional security requirements. O’Reagan: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? Freshley: [LAUGHTER] Well, I wouldn’t know how to answer that. I would say, from my experience, it was very normal. I guess if there were security requirements and things like that, you just kind of got used to it, and you didn’t—it wasn’t something that stood out. I think that’s true. O’Reagan: Okay. So what haven’t I asked about that I should ask about? What else is there I should be asking about? Freshley: Well, how do I answer that? I don’t know. I think we’ve covered my experience pretty thoroughly. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Well, we don’t have to dwell on it if nothing comes to mind. Freshley: No. O’Reagan: It is an open-ended question. Freshley: Well, what happened, after we bought our ranch house, the government didn’t come around and change our light bulbs anymore. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Oh, really? Did you have to—how much of a transition was that once you sort of became a homeowner? Was it--? Freshley: Oh, it was a good transition, from my standpoint. You could do things—like we made modifications to the house. It was our house. It wasn’t controlled by the government—or owned by the government. So that made a big difference. You had a lot more freedom and so on in what you did and how you did it. O’Reagan: All right. Well, thanks so much. This is very, very interesting, very useful. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:06:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 324 Area 3706 Building N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1993 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. John Fox Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Max Freshley Description An account of the resource An interview with Max Freshley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02-10-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area 324 Building 3706 Building Battelle Cold War Engineering Test Reactor General Electric Hanford Livermore Los Alamo Los Alamos Mountain Mountains N Reactor Nuclear Regulatory Commission Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant River Savannah River School Street Theater War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F28a2a31d0a10e6436fafce8d65fec651.jpg b9619b036e3525d491cc95915e251e35 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb699b96eac222f7a141bc116875ae9d2.mp4 2afe44cc1de41ef0a133dfaf1f298ffc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maynard Plahuta Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Maynard Plahuta on Thursday, I guess it’s—sorry, what is the date today? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: 28th. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Is it the 28th? Okay. April 28th, 2016. This interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Mr. Plahuta about his experiences working on the Hanford site and living in the Tri-Cities. To start us off, could you please pronounce and spell your name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yes. It’s Maynard Plahuta. Maynard is M-A-Y-N-A-R-D, and Plahuta is P-L-A-H-U-T-A. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Thank you. Just to start off, could you tell us a little bit about your life before you came to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Okay. Well, I was born in a little old farming community in Wisconsin—a little dairy farming community. Big population of 200 people. Then I grew up there on the farm most of the time and went on to college. Went to the University of Wisconsin, first got my undergrad work, and then later I went back and got my master’s in business administration. In between those two times, I worked for General Motors, the AC spark plug plant in Oak Ridge—not Oak Ridge, I’m sorry—Oak Park, Wisconsin, which was the Titan missile program for the Air Force, the guidance system—the gyro system. So then I went back to grad school and then joined up with the Atomic Energy Commission and was assigned out here at Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What attracted you to the AEC? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, I think part of it was the interest in kind of science and industry and all of that sort of thing. The people from Argonne Lab at the Chicago Operations office came to interview at the campus there. I and another fellow were invited to then go back to Argonne for a further interview, and I was one of the two that was selected to join. At the time, I didn’t know where I would be located. They asked, well, if you had a preference. We aren’t going to pick particular places, but if you had a preference, list the three sites that the Atomic Energy Commission was at that I would enjoy. So I said, well, of course, the first one was at the Argonne Lab, close by home there. And I don’t remember which I put second or third, but it was either Richland, Washington or Schenectady, New York. I ended up being in Schenectady for a while basically. But I was assigned out here at Richland, and it was interesting because he says, well, you know, this is not the western—this isn’t the Evergreen State. And I said, well, I learned that by looking up a little more information on Hanford out in the desert. So I came out here with the idea that probably these assignments would be for one year. Because we were on what they called the technical and administrative intern program. So, I was selected on that intern program, and said probably be there a year, and probably no longer, because we’ll probably assign you somewhere else. Well, I came, and I was here until ’71 and then I went back to Schenectady for four years, and came back and was here ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What sort of jobs were you working on then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, initially—my graduate work was in labor relations and in personnel management and that sort of thing. At that time, they didn’t call it human resources, they called it personnel management. So I was, first year out here, probably in the personnel department for about a year. And then that’s when the whole diversification program started here in 1963 or ’64. And I was assigned to look at the unique use permit and work for a fellow by the name of Paul Holstead who had the responsibility for all the lab operations as far as the Atomic Energy Commission was concerned. That was very interesting. So that was all start of this whole arrangement with Battelle being selected to operate the Pacific Northwest Lab. Now, at that time it wasn’t called a national lab yet; it was just Pacific Northwest Lab. And they had that particular use permit, which is no longer in existence, but it was a real ideal situation. And then that led into what they called the Consolidated Lab where they could do private work as well as the government work and all of that. So I administered that contract, then, for a few years, or until I went back to Schenectady. Then I was back in personnel management in Schenectady, though—labor relations area, under Rickover’s program, and that was very interesting. Then I came back here again in ’65 and was in personnel for a while but then back at the laboratory for a while. And I worked on that for—oh, gosh, quite a few years, because I had a total of 35 years in. But most of the time was with the laboratory, but then later on, I was asked to take over the responsibilities for the DOE—at that time was already DOE—and the site infrastructure. You know, the roads, the utilities, the sewer plants, the warehouse buildings, the railroads, the—all the utilities, just like running a whole city. It was not the operations of those infrastructure; it was more the capital improvements and the projects that needed to be done. Either new roads or new utilities or whatever it might be. That was for—I don’t know—four, five, six years. That also included some of the relationship with the tribes in the cultural resource programs and that sort of activity. But then the other manager asked us, jeepers, you know, I would really like to set up something we never had here at Richland before. That was sort of a governmental relations program. So he asked if I would be willing to do that. So the last—oh, probably about the last six years of my career, I was in what they call governmental-congressional relations, dealing—almost daily basis with congressional staff. Primarily congressional staff, some within the state government as well, and the local government, particularly in those sorts of things. So I retired doing that job in ’98. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Great. Let’s back up. Could you tell us about this diversification program? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, yeah. That was really interesting, because what the idea was—that is when General Electric decided not to continue with their contract. Up until that time, General Electric had one contract for whole site operations. So the idea was two-fold. GE was not particularly interested in continuing doing that particular work, and the community was going through—yes, they still are—the diversification and further economic development for the community. So, there was a big effort there to break up the whole big contract into—I think it was five or six different segments. It was all up for bid, and various people were bidding for it. The laboratory, though, was separated as one of those segments. That was the first one to be authorized, and Battelle came in then operations in July of ’65. But up until—during that whole year, I was kind of working on part of the bid package going out and working on that. But not extensively. But then after the bid was accepted from Battelle, and they put an operation in, it got into this matter of doing this. The diversification program itself was dependent much on what these bidders would propose to supplement the economy here in the Tri-Cities. In fact, that’s how this WSU campus—you may be aware—was part of one of the contractors’ business, that they’d build this facility. Up until that time, GE had a little building down where the bank is—the National Bank down there by the Federal Building—and that wasn’t built either yet—to service the program that they established, their educational program, which is very unique because there wasn’t really any nuclear engineering classes in universities—or very few. So they really brought tech people in and really gave them a good background and education in nuclear operations and so on. Now, I said the Federal Building wasn’t built then. It was built then. It was in the process of being built when I came out here in ’63. So that diversification was the spinoff of a lot of new types of business here in the Tri-Cities. I mean, Exxon Nuclear, which now later is now part of AREVA out here at the site, the fuel fabrication. That started out a spinoff from some of the activity there. There was just a great amount of enthusiasm at that time, because, I think, there was worries that the government will fold up and the city will kind of dry up and blow away so to speak. So that was a very interesting period. There was some very interesting discussions, very interesting foresights of what might happen. A number of those didn’t survive. There were some things—isotope development was one at that time that was a little bit ahead of its time, I think. But there was—the airport was improved by that. What’s now the Red Lion in town, but the Hanford House, it was called then, I think it was—no, Desert Inn. The Desert Inn at that time was a brand new building they put up at that time. So it was a different time, and rather unique type of activity that was going on in this community at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Were these discussions going on in the newspapers, or just sort of hand-shake meetings? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, they were pretty well open discussions about what they wanted. And there was quite a bit of publicity about the fact of what some of these contractors—potential contractors were offering. That was exciting for the people, because some of these were new developments. Like the whole campus here, an original building that was part of one of the contractors’ bids. And the hotels and the stockyards over in Wallula over there, that was another one. And, gee, I can’t remember all of them, but there were a number. I know the isotope development thing—the isotope separations, I could really say, was one that didn’t quite make it. But anyway, it was a period of time when people were looking forward into the future and what might come, and looking at different types of work, and not so dependent just on the government here. Now, of course, we’re still quite dependent on the government here, and that’s been—what, 30 years—oh, more than that. That was 1965, so that’s been a long, long time ago. But a lot has progressed, obviously, from that time. I remember coming here—I wasn’t married at the time. I met my wife here. But, gee, if people wanted to go shopping, they’d either go to Walla Walla or Yakima or something. You know, there was nothing here. The mall out there wasn’t developed. It was—very little here to—and about the restaurants, you’d go over to Prosser to the Red Barn or something if you wanted a good meal. You could always find a hamburger shop here or something like that, but it was quite different then. Of course, my wife grew up here. She was only five years old when her parents came from Schenectady, New York with GE. She can remember—gosh, when hardly anything was going on, and families would just get together because they were from—god, all over the country. So many of them didn’t have any family here, so they created their own families, so to speak. But, yeah, that diversification effort was a great effort. There was much success, much success. I think a lot of what was learned there has been helpful and useful for the community. And I do have to give a credit, though, to Battelle and some of the forward-thinking that they did on what their operations were, very successful. And this Consolidated Lab which most people even in this community don’t understand or recognize, but it was very unique. There was a fellow that was with GE, went over with Battelle, of course, when they took over, by the name of Wally Sale. He was their finance director. Tremendous guy. He and Sam Tomlinson and the DOE—or AEC—I call it DOE, but it was the AEC then—were both very, very instrumental in getting this unique idea established and working there, where it was a fair amount of discipline and very good audit-type processing and very excellent means of determining that everything was legitimate, so to speak. That the accounting was very precise. It was a unique situation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So you were still working with the AEC while you were working on that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. So they were—even though they weren’t sort of a bidder, or in direct— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: No, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: They were still involved— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, they were the organization or the entity that was accepting these bids and proposals going out and diversify the area. That was—I should also mention, that was a lot to do with some of the local community leaders here, though, too, was pushing this idea with the government that, no, we got to depend on more than just the US government to keep this economy going. So there were guys like Sam Volpentest and others—Bob Philips and other people—who were working closely with our two senators. They were actively involved. Magnusson and Jackson—Scoop Jackson and Maggie. Very, very obvious. And they both held very high level positions in the government at that time. I mean, they were—there was some thought for a while about Scoop Jackson even running for President. So they both were elevated in the structure of the politicians in the DC area. So, there was a great support there from our local state senators, particularly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Right. So, while we’re still in this early period—you said you’d done some research before you got here. Did it match your expectations? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, yeah. I didn’t really have a whole lot of expectations, really. I mean, I knew that eastern Washington was quite dry, but I didn’t know quite a lot about it. I can remember, I was interested in geography when I was in elementary school, even, and knowing the Plains and the desert area, generally, and the wheat-growing area here, and that sort. But not too much—very extensive. Yeah, I think I surprised the AEC people out of Argonne when I says, well, yeah, I realized it was dry and a desert. They said, well, jeepers, most people think of Washington as just being green, you know, the Evergreen State, and don’t even think about it possibly being a desert out there. And when I would talk to some of my friends back in Wisconsin as I was going out, the common words were, oh, you’re gonna be out there in the mountains and you’re gonna be out there in the greenery and all the evergreens. I say, no, no, I’m gonna be out there where the wheat grows in eastern Washington. Really? So I think that’s a misconception a lot of people in the eastern US have of Washington—eastern Washington, you know. They’re correct on the western side, but not on the eastern side. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What sort of housing did you live in when you got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, I roomed with a fellow by the name of Holland St. John. He was a teacher at Chief Joe Junior High here, and the tennis coach there. So I did that until I met my wife and got married, and we then lived in a B house—you know, the government B house, the famous [UNKNOWN], with the landlord on the other side—very friendly people, people originally from Tennessee, I believe they were. Just great, great folks to be with. We rented that until—because we got married in ’67—until I went back to Schenectady. And then when we came back, I bought a home here in North Richland. Now, currently live in a house that my wife basically grew up with. It was an H house. We remodeled the whole thing so it doesn’t look anything—all that was remained the same was the four outside walls and one wall inside. And we added on. Anyway, it was one of the government homes that I was originally renting an H house with this roommate. And then when we got married, I rented a B house. And the original H house was—Holland St. John was one of the fellows, and the other guy was Sherman. We had the three of us, three single guys who were using that part where they—again, the landlord was on the other side. Wonderful people. That was kind of unique, because when I first came and went looking, I thought, this A house, B house, that are for rent. I was like, oh, what’s an A, B or an H house, C house? But it didn’t take long to figure out, okay, that’s just the nomenclature that was being used for these various types of homes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Right. How did you meet your wife? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: It was actually through church. There was group in our church—it was the Christ the King Catholic church, and it was a singles group. That’s how I met her. So we got married and we’ve had four children. They’re all grown adults now, of course. And we have seven grandkids. Six of them are girls, and finally the one that came along is a boy—the last one. But my two daughters—two of my daughters live here in town with their family. And I got a son in Seattle and another one just south of Portland in Tualatin—suburb of Portland. They all—I’m very proud of—they all went on through college. One has got a PhD, the other two of them got a master’s degree. One—and probably the one that’s doing the best, financially, has got just a master’s degree. But the three girls and a boy, and my son has got his master’s out of Purdue in engineering. My one daughter, the youngest one, has got her degree out of Gonzaga in engineering. The other one’s got her PhD in gerontology and the other’s got her master’s in early childhood development. So they’re all doing well. So I’m quite proud of them—of course, as most parents are. You know how they are, parents. They always think their kids are the greatest in the world. So anyway, that’s kind of where I came from—Wisconsin, and all the way out to the west coast and had not been really in the northwest prior to coming out here. I had been in California and some of those areas, but not in the northwest. You know, it’s an enjoyable place to live. But as a lot of people, as you know, here, some of them came for just a short time and they remain here forever. I married here. So that’s probably the same for me. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Part of what we’re trying to document is sort of the social life around the area, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Were church activities sort of a large part of your social life at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, quite a bit. And I was also involved, though—that was before I even met my wife, Yvonne. The little town I grew up in was quite a little interesting town as far as baseball. The area back there in these little towns would have their teams, and they’d play each other. So I was most familiar with baseball, and I had played baseball as a kid. So I helped one of the fellows who, just by coincidence, was also from Wisconsin, from the Milwaukie area. And he was coaching his kids in Little League baseball. So I helped out on that. Then later on, when my kids got going in the youth soccer program and that was when youth soccer first started, I was quite active in getting it into the high schools and so on, because that was not very popular, not really—like the case of much soccer in the area. So I’m on the Hanford High School support team—what do you call it? The—hmm, I can’t think of the title now. But anyway the supporters have their support efforts to keep them going. So the social life was pretty much tied in with the church, but not exclusively. Then we—there’d be these events we’d have. We’d go over to the coast or do things together, as a group—hiking. Not as much hiking, probably, as visiting various locations and sightseeing and that sort of thing. So that was kind of pretty much—but the housing was interesting, too, because you hear these stories of people going, and when they get home from work, the earlier days, before my time, going into the wrong house because they got the wrong place. But I can understand that. I mean, it was quite unique. My wife has some interesting stories about how she grew up and talking about what was family life. Their family was way back in New York. They went back once when she was about five or—no, I think seven, she said. And she had, at that time, four sisters—I mean four siblings, and another one with her mother on the way in her pregnancy. And took all the—tied into the car and drove all the way back. Spent more time going and coming than they did back there. But it was a case where she—in the case that they got to know your neighbors well, it was friendly, it was safe, everybody—kids all played out. Where we’re living now, we’ve got just that little funny park in front of our place over by the river there. Her father was an accomplished skater, so he decided when he had an opportunity to get the house along the river here, that’s the one he wanted to take it. Not realizing that not too many winters where there’s ice on the snow. But he was the state champion in New York City on ice racing. So he’s got quite a bit of medals and stuff. So she talks about the farm—I mean, the families that would get together on holidays and whatever. It was just a different type of lifestyle. I didn’t experience that myself, but it’s interesting just hearing her talk about those things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Yeah, we’ll have to bring her in at some point. We’re trying to get as many people who sort of grew up here for that as well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, she was only five years old and she came in ’47. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. Yeah, we’d definitely like to interview her at some point. Okay, so let’s see. You were working on the diversification stuff and then you went back to Schenectackey—Ss- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Schenectady. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Schenectady, yes. And then you came back in—I have it written down here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: ’71. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: ’75. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: ’75, I mean. I left in ’71. April of ’71, back in ’75. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: And at that point you were working on the—let’s see here—the DOE site infrastructure stuff, or was that later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, that was much later. I was on the laboratory stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: It was shortly after. About the first year or so was more in the personnel and that area. But then when this whole diversification effort came forward. I think my master’s degree in business and all this kind of led into—and I did have quite a bit of educational experience in contract management and contract administration, too. I have that—I don’t know if that played a role or not, but it helped me, I know, in terms of—and it was a whole new type of contract relationship that this Consolidated Lab and the use permit and all that had. So it was unique and interesting just from that standpoint alone. So yeah, at that time up until ’71, it was there, and then came back, worked in the personnel area, in the Rickover program. That’s an interesting story, too, because Rickover was a unique individual, very unique. But his staff was made up of military men, contractor people, and DOE or AEC at that time. And there was no distinction. I mean, you would have a contractor person right along with you and so on. He considered it all just one. It was very unique, in terms of the contractor and working relationships. But yet, what was so familiar—you could have these working—I shouldn’t say one by one, it would be even offices or something. But yet, he was very instrumental in saying, I don’t want any social activities between you. So as much as going to the cafeteria at noon, there was a section where the AEC people sat, and another whole section where the contractor people sat. And the military guys could be with either one, but they would—the military people were associated with AEC office—the civilian people. So in that office, there was no distinction whether you were military or a civilian. But in the contactor side, of course they were all civilians. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Is that an anti-corruption effort, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, yeah, and I guess avoiding any kind of potential conflict of interest and friendships, so that you got pretty soon with somebody, well, I’ll do you a favor, and vice versa. Very, very, very strong on that sort of thing. But yet, he himself seemed just one team. It was just like a football team—you’re the receiver and you’re the lineman. You’ve got different jobs. It was unique, and there’s some interesting stories about Rickover, too, but I won’t get into those. But those are very interesting times. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Did you ever get to know any of the contractor people? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, yeah. You would know them on the business side. Definitely. Oh, yeah. You’d work with them every day. Some more, because if it was in your area of responsibility, certainly, you’d be working with them. But, boy, not socially. There was no—I mean, that was a voodoo if you had any social-type activities with the contractors. That was not to his liking. That makes sense, I mean, it would just avoid any possible conflict of interest and that sort of thing. It was an interesting time. But it’s kind of like a lot of people say. I went into military, I’m glad, but I’m glad I’m out. It’s kind of that sort of same analogy. But it was a great experience. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What was Rickover’s title? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Rickover? Admiral. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Admiral, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Admiral Rickover, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So what was his exact sort of authority within the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: He headed up the whole nuclear navy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Oh, I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: He was really up there. And in fact, when—I think—which President was it? Maybe it was Kennedy—no, it wasn’t Kennedy, it was after. Anyway, when he was giving some kind of address somewhere, he recognized—I know, I’m Rickover’s boss, but really we’re all—Rickover’s my boss. And that happened with Schlesinger, too, when he was appointed the head of the Atomic Energy Commission, when he was there. He says, oh, yeah. And he made the same kind of remark. I don’t know if it was those exact words. But Rickover was a very powerful individual in terms of his authority. He was kind of all by himself, because, again, the nuclear navy was unique, and so he was a brilliant man. There was no question about it. He would pick just the top-notch-quality technical people that he could to run his program. The safety was so important to him. The wellbeing of all the military people, and the people who were in the submarines and that sort of thing. So he was really great. But he had a unique way of operations, there was no question about that. He was a strong, strong individual. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So this period you were working in personnel is also, I understand, the period where you started having more women and minorities being hired on at the Hanford area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: That is true. There was a big emphasis—the period—and following my part of the end there, but in that timeframe of particularly on the college campuses and recruiting minorities and women, which is good. But there was extreme interest in finding qualified minorities and women. There was certainly emphasized that it was—and that’s great. I mean, I go back and think in my thesis for my master’s degree in business administration, and I made some statement then, makes me sound almost like an anti-feminist now. But I was saying we really got to get more women into the technical side, but I wasn’t thinking far enough. We really think a lot—we don’t have many women technicians and stuff. So I was—at that time—thinking, oh, gosh, that they could be technicians. And not even thinking about being engineers, you know, getting their PhD in engineering. But at least, let’s—so I started out just—it wasn’t a matter of discrimination, where I said they should be technicians, because there were no—but I said, jeepers, let’s work on that. I had much of my emphasis—because my emphasis in my PhD was the shortage of technical people in the country. That was after Sputniks and some of those things going. We really needed development, work hard and see what we can do to get the people interested in getting into the math and sciences and that area. Some people kind of looked at me, you want women to be technicians or something? Yeah, but—you know. Now, I think, boy, I’d be discriminated—I mean, not discriminated, but considered, yeah, you’re very limited in your scope. You should be much broader than that. Yeah, that was a time when the Sputniks went off and these others, and we were quite behind and Kennedy wanted to get to the moon. And that, though, when I was in, was quite a bit later than that. Not quite a bit, but somewhat later, and the emphasis on trying to get minorities and women as much as we possibly could. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. So it didn’t—how—did it shape your work on personnel at that point, I guess--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, I don’t know if it shaped it so much, but back to my word of emphasis, to see if we really seek out qualified people. And not that they needed, necessarily, to have had extensive training, but look at their overall education experience and how well they were doing in school. In other words, that they were capable of picking up some of the technical. And whether they had that already knowledge was not quite as important as looking at what’s their basic—I don’t know, I guess I could say basic intellect—but their ability to really take on some of these things. It was not hard to find that. I mean, that doesn’t—I don’t want to imply that the women or minorities didn’t have that. They certainly did. But I think a lot of them, maybe themselves, didn’t realize that they really could do that, that there was no reason why they couldn’t. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: I was speaking with a reactor operator in a previous interview who had a degree, I think, in forestry or something non-sort-of-nuclear, but was still able to become a reactor operator. Was that sort of common that you saw, too, people moving into new fields to get on the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: That was not unusual, no. And that was particularly true—and I noticed you talk I was being on—with Rickover’s submarine program—we would hire then people who—and that happened out here awful lot—who had gone through the nuclear navy and were nuclear operators. We had a number of those people that didn’t want to stay in the Navy, but we hired on his staff—on Rickover’s staff—in our local office there at Schenectady. Now, that was a small office. The office was not very big. It was relatively small. But we hired a number of those people, and they were good, because they—and many of them had not gone to college yet. They got out of the Navy, they went to college, and then came back. I mean, I remember recruiting two or three or four of those types. And we recruited basically around northeast area, because we were in Schenectady, in some of the schools around there. Plattsburg, up in northern—which is a civil engineering school up in norther New York, and a number of areas there where we would find students who—not a lot of them, but who had gone back after they got out of service and didn’t want to make it a career, and got their degrees. Some would be in the technical fields; some would not be, necessarily. But most that we hired had degrees in some form of engineering or science or whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. So you were working with the nuclear navy program after you got back from Schenectady—pronouncing it again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: No, it was at Schenectady I did the nuclear program. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Oh, I see, I see. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: It’s at Schenectady. So I was here, then went to Schenectady for four years—not quite four years—three-and-three-quarters. And then back here again. And that’s when the diversification effort came about, when I came—no, no, no, I’ll take that back. That was back when I got back into some of the other Battelle work again, after I came back. The diversification was prior to going to Schenectady. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Okay. So then were you working for Battelle or were you still working for AEC? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: No, I always worked for the government, always. It was AEC, and then a short period of time, it was—what did we call it, even? There was a two-year period between AEC and Department of Energy. Research and Development Administration, I think. Yeah, that was what it was called—Research and Development Administration. And then it became—Congress passed it and developed the Department of Energy. And when they developed the Department of Energy, it expanded a little bit and took in, like Bonneville Power out here was part of that, and a number of activities like that. More than just atomic energy, and that’s when it got a little more involved in the laboratories and other forms of—quite a bit. Whether it be climate—today it’s climate change, or climate sciences, as it’s called, and other types of activity. More than just the nuclear itself. But there’s a misconception, when I say nuclear itself, this, as you’ve probably learned and know, that there’s all kinds of work that dealt with biology and the uptake of radioisotopes and all of that sort of thing. And we had the animal farm out here with the smoking dogs and the miniature pigs—miniature swine, and all of that activity. And then when I was administering the Battelle program and the Pacific Lab, I was also involved in a lot of interagency work. So I was—in fact, one of my responsibilities there was working with all the other agencies in the interagency agreements. And that meant that works like NASA and National Science—although they didn’t have a lot—the NRC, and EPA and others would have work done at the lab. And that would be not DOE work or AEC work, but it was their particular responsibility. But they had the capability and knowledge out here to do that. So there was a lot of that. In fact, I was involved in the whole setup of the LIGO facility out here, working with the National Science Foundation. And they had no knowledge of this—had to kind of guide them by hand as to what kind of arrangements they would have between the two agencies for them to use the Department of Energy land out here and their facility and all of that sort of thing. So from very early on, I spent somewhat—a fair amount of my time working with the National Science Foundation to getting the establishment of the LIGO facility out here. That was rather a long interesting experience, too, and all the unique things that went on doing that. So I just have this—even though I’m not a scientist or engineer by training, I have this kind of innate interest in science and engineering. That was what was so exciting about administering the lab contract, to see the whole variety of activity that goes on out there at the lab. And even, I think, the majority of the citizens of Richland and Tri-Cities do not understand, fully, the broad spectrum of knowledge and exposure to all elements of the nature of science and technology that’s available out here to the lab, and what all these experts they have in those all wide spectrum of activity. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: In your experience, how kid of secretive was any of this work? Was it all kind of out there? Was it kind of compartmentalized? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, there was a lot of secret-type stuff, but there wasn’t as much of that, I don’t think—now, I didn’t get involved too much in the production—in the plutonium production. Because the laboratory wasn’t so directly involved in that. That was the big load from the local office, was producing the plutonium, getting that back, and doing all of that sort of thing. The lab was supporting that, and doing that in the nuclear aspects of nuclear science, but there was a lot—an awful lot of work that was not secret. Now, they also were, though, heavily involved in many of the secret-type stuff. That relates primarily to their strong capability in detection—detecting things. I mean, you’re probably aware that the first moon rocks that came from the moon were here at the site, at the lab, to analyze those, to look at them, what was all made up of? The very first, first exposure to the moon rocks was right down here that Federal Building, anywhere in the United States that they were shown. That was quite a deal, too. So they have this tremendous capability. The labs were one of the first—this lab—the first to detect that Saddam Hussein had used chemical warfare for the Kurds back there, and that was way back time. Tremendous, and some interesting stories of how they collected some of this stuff and how they got these samples. I don’t know if we want to get into it. It was really, really interesting activities in that sort of stuff. Some of the things—it’s not classified anymore, but the people out at the lab or some of these guys would go over to Hong Kong, and they’d just brush against somebody to get a hair off of somebody that [UNKNOWN] just get a sample. Or a little dust and dirt came off their shoe, they might pick it up or something. Just the most minute quantities of things, and being able to analyze and determine. This laboratory out here was the first to decide how big the bombs are that China was dropping, to get the size of those through the air samples and all of that. There’s just this broad knowledge, or capability, I should say, in detection activities out here. It’s just amazing. And they’ve kept that up in the same way with their radioisotope program—the medical isotopes program. So much of that that many people don’t realize of all the spinoffs and benefits that have come from the knowledge that they gained. The first CD was developed out here at the lab. Much of that. I’m really interested in reading, now, Steve Ashby’s reports bimonthly in the Tri-City Herald about some of the activities going on at the lab. And I miss that. I used to get real knowledge about what they’re working on. Of course, it’s been 18 or 20 years since I’ve done that, but that was always fascinating, some of this advanced science and some of this stuff that was really—and a lot of it was development and a lot of it wasn’t. But they’d run into some dead-ends. They’d later on pick it up again, somebody would discover something else, and they’d finally go forth with it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: When did it become a national lab? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: God, I don’t remember the year that was. God, I should know that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: I’m sure we can look it up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, we can look it up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Was that while you were working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, yeah, yeah. It was—god, why should—because that was a big event. And we were pushing quite well at the time to try to get that done. Yeah. Golly, that just escapes me. I’ve got to—now that you mention it, I’ve got to go back and check that out and see when it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What was involved in that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, it was basically—I don’t want to call it a political decision, but it was basically, I think, recognizing the scope of activity that the labs were involved with. There wasn’t a great urge by the Washington, DC people or any to readily accept that title. I mean, it means a lot. So it was really a lot of background in what their involvement, and what type of work were they involved with, and what depth were they involved with and what types—and really focusing a lot on the basic science and that sort. And that’s where I think this lab was a little later than others, because this lab, up until the later times, was more of a support lab on production activities and not quite so much in basic. Now there was some basic on the real basic physics and something to deal with reactor operations. But they evolved and grew into this more basic science in a broad spectrum. I think that was one of the criteria. Now, I wasn’t involved in that decision at all. But my understanding is one of the criteria of establishing is that they got a well-established basic science capability. It’s not just specialized in one area or something. That’s where I think this lab was one of the later ones to be recognized as a national lab, because they built that up. And one of the things, too, that there wasn’t much knowledge of, because the production was such a secret thing, that that didn’t get much publicity or get papers written about it, and so on. So unfortunately the people that were working on that didn’t get the opportunity to have their findings and whatever presented to the whole world at national conferences and things like that. And that was also true, by the way, in Rickover’s program. Rickover was very cognizant—he was so afraid that the communists had this and that. So that was one of the real issue—there was basically almost the technical people at the capital laboratory, the Knolls Atomic Power Lab in Schenectady, almost unionized because they really felt that they were being shortchanged. They couldn’t give papers at technical conferences and stuff because Rickover was always afraid that you might reveal something that was highly secret about how to run a reactor and all that kind of stuff. So I think some of that same sort of information or background was kind of holding this lab back, because they just didn’t get the publicity in the scientific world, that their discoveries and their knowledge and their experiments and so on were well-known. And I think that helped, because the people in DC who were more knowledgeable of that found that to be a quality that was great for being recognized as a national lab. But a national lab, again, was the idea with broad spectrum of research. So that’s my take of it. You may talk to somebody else and they probably have a whole different presentation in terms of why or how and what was all involved. But just being on sort of the sidelines when that happened, that seemed to me to be what was the key point in helping determine. But there was some political push, no question. I mean, Maggie again, and Scoop—I think that was when they were on, and some of those. Why are you shortchanging us out there in the northwest? And we don’t have—that was the other thing, there was no national lab in the northwest. There was Livermore down in California, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge and Brookhaven. But why are you guys leaving us out in the north? And that was more form—not the science or technology, but, well, don’t treat us as second class citizens. Our lab up there is as good as yours. So there was some of that out there, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Did it impact your work, when it changed? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: No, I don’t think so. Well, I shouldn’t say that. One of the things that did happen in that regard—and I mentioned earlier about these interagency agreements and the capabilities of the lab—that stimulated more of that. Because I think being—once you’re recognized as a national lab, it just goes along with the credibility that might be associated with the work they’re doing. So I think that resulted in more of this interagency work with the various other government agencies. What it also did—and that was probably the most key element—is bringing in the tie with universities and so on. That was really—and locally, here, that was one of the interests of the people with the lab. They would really have liked to get more—and by the fact being recognized national lab, allowed the universities, and particularly some of the ones heavily involved in the science and engineering, would tend to favor going to a national laboratory. And the research that they were doing in cooperation with the lab itself was more significant, more meaningful to them. So I think that was probably one of the biggest benefits of becoming a national lab. Yet Battelle as an organization back in Columbus and others, they had a good reputation already of working closely with universities and so on. I mean, they were a research organization. And I think that also helped, too, because Battelle was operating this, and so the people who made these decisions realized that you have a topnotch research company—foundation there, that that’s their whole world. So I think that also helped in getting it. And certainly the lab pushed for that. There was no question about it. They wanted to be recognized as a national lab. So there was a combination of these things, I think they all kind of helped and worked together and made it happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So when was it that your work with PNNL shifted over to the next role? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, yeah. Well, let’s see. That was probably in more the early ‘90s. Where—yeah—because—yeah—early ‘90s is when I start going in there. So most of my career was with PNL and some of the labor relations. But early ‘90s, when I got into the infrastructure deal and doing all of that, and then later the last five years in the congressional and governmental relations activity, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Could you tell us about the infrastructure work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, that was quite interesting. That was frustrating. And by frustrating I mean, there was always—well, let’s not fix it until it’s broke. Oh, gosh, we used to have some—because it was still working. And particularly that was more emphasis as the role of the site here of not producing plutonium anymore—well, then do we need to keep it? Let’s see if it can limp along. Well, what it ended up, in my opinion, a lot of times, we paid a lot more by trying to fix things afterward. We didn’t really have a good preventative maintenance program. Finally got sort of a preventative maintenance, but—it was tough. Because there was always this thing—there was always a great need of doing this thing, and jeepers, we can’t use the dollars there; it’ll still work for a while. I didn’t have the responsibility for the day-to-day operations of it. That wasn’t mine. Mine was the upgrades and the capital equipment and all that. Whether we need a new fire station or whatever it may be. And jeepers, the thing was just limping along on a thread, and something would break. But then we ended up spending a whole lot more. That was somewhat frustrating. And the guys that I worked with on the contractor side had the same experience. But some managers were a little more cognizant of the need to do that than others. And safety—the way we could get things done—[PHONE CHIMES]—was safety more. Because if we could show that there was safety-related issues that went along with it, it was easier to get it appropriated or funded, rather than say, well, it’ll still go along. And that’s the way we often would get something funded, was, could show that we really don’t want to jeopardize the safety of the employees or the workers and that sort of thing. But it was not simple. It was pretty difficult. It was always kind of bucking the tide for funding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Right. That reminds me—so, you were still working at PNNL when the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, I wasn’t at PNNL; it was DOE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Right, yeah, okay. But back during the time when sort of the reactors were shutting down and the transition to sort of amelioration and cleanup got started. Is that correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, but that most of the time was with PNNL, still. But it was in ’89, is when the real decision was made. So it was shortly after that that I got into the infrastructure and that’s where it became hard then. Because we weren’t operating with the mission anymore. Yet you knew darn well that cleanup is going to be here for a long, long time, and why not get these things going so you don’t spend twice as much starting all over new, with something when you could just really do some work at that time to keep this thing alive? This thing, being—whether it be a sewer plant or whether it be a steam plant or fire station or electro distribution system or a railroad or whatever it might be. Because, at least I could see, it was cheaper because cleanup’s gonna last for a while and you need this infrastructure whether your mission is producing the plutonium or whether it’s cleanup. Soon we got some of the people saying, yeah, you’re right. But the guys who were doing the cleanup then, too, saying, oh, god, we’ve got so much work to do, we can’t afford to do this. It’ll last another year or two. Let’s fix it next year or upgrade it next year. The evaporator out there is a good example. They finally did it. But there was things earlier they probably could have done to increase its capability and do a better job. And finally they say, yeah, I guess that’s right, we should do it now because we’ll need that thing for god knows how long yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What was it like living in this area around ’89 when the shift happened? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, it was a surprise, I think, to a lot of people. Kind of like, oh, gosh, here we go again. That’s when this whole activity—and I wasn’t involved in, but with the B Reactor Museum Association really got its birth when they were saying, we’re shutting down the reactors and going there. But the attitude was, or the feelings was that, jeepers, it was just doomsday basically. And not fully understanding the scope of work that needed to be done in the cleanup area. It was very little attention being paid to the depth of that need at the time. I don’t think there was much knowledge—excuse me—or basically understanding of how important and significant that’s going to be. So it was a change in times, it certainly was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Do you think a lot of—or were people sort of in your area worried about their jobs? Or was that, you felt, sort of separate from the plutonium production? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, I–yeah, I wasn’t too involved in that sort of aspect. But, yes, the community had a concern. And that kind of coincides with the big problem out there that’s now Energy Northwest, but the shutdown of those new power reactors. So that kind of came together at the same time, and that was really a shock for the community. It was—you know, a lot of people would leave and say, jeepers, I got to go find something else before I don’t have a job at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Right. So in the last couple of years before retirement, you were working on the congressional relations? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, yeah, about five years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Can you tell us about that work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, about five years prior to retirement. Five, six—something like that. I don’t remember exactly when. That was very interesting, too, and you got another scope of how things got done. I got to a point where I was having daily discussions with particularly Patty Murray’s staff and prior to that, Doc Hasting’s staff—staff members. Not that much with the senators or the congressmen themselves, but primarily their staff, and working with them. And somewhat with the state offices, but not extensively. And then more with the local communities—the mayors—the Hanford communities group there. That was quite regularly—and the emphasis that we placed then, I’m not sure still exists, but really wanted to tie in closely to having the local government—the mayors and commissioners and so on—knowledgeable of what’s going on out here at the site. So there wouldn’t be these sudden surprises. That was the role that John Wagner at the time was interested in, and that’s when he asked me if I would be willing to—it was a new position he was establishing. He just wanted to maintain a close relationship with what’s going on at the site, and I don’t know if that’s—I shouldn’t say—I don’t know if it’s the case now, but I don’t think it’s quite the same as what John had in mind and what I did for those five, six years. So when I left, then, they kind of—when I retired, it kind of was sitting in just ebbs there—ups and downs—and it’s probably back more to that way. I really don’t know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: But shortly after that, too, then, I got on the Hanford Advisory Board. So I had kind of a knowledge about what was going on at the site. So I was very active in the Hanford Advisory Board for quite a few years—for like 15 years or so. But I got so much involved in the B Reactor thing that I said, gee—I didn’t feel like to just go to the meetings and not really contribute a whole lot. So I thought I’d just give up and retire at that point in time, and I found someone who I know real well who’s capable to take my place. I was representing the county most of the time—sort of an alternate representative for the City of Richland first, but then later for the county most all the time. I wanted to be sure that—and I did find someone who was very, very, well-involved and informative to take my spot there for the county commission now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So Okay. So before we move on, can you tell me—what was the Hanford Advisory Board? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, that was established—gosh, I can’t remember exactly when, but it’s made up of about 30 different entities—representatives of those entities. It’s statewide and it includes some of the Oregon people, the tribes are on it, most of the government—city governments and county governments are represented. There’s total—like I say, about 31. They’re a formal advisory group to the Atomic Energy—Atomic Energy? I’m really going back now—to the DOE to uncover and discuss various elements of ongoing work. And you probably see quite a bit in the paper that the Hanford Advisory Board meets on a monthly basis—no, I shouldn’t say that—about every other month. But then they’ve got committees underneath of it like the Tanks Waste Committee and the River Plateau Committee—there’s five different committees. I chaired a couple of those committees a couple times, and vice chair and so on. And they provide some advice—written advice to the—and it’s—oh, I shouldn’t say it’s just DOE. There’s three parties to this. It’s the State Ecology Department, the EPA, Environmental Protection Agency, and DOE. So the three agencies are involved in this. They provide—can be anything regarding to the Vit Plant out here now, the tank vapor things—so many different activities. They write formal advice and discussion. It represents all sides, basically. Those that are pro/con, what are the proper words, or whatever you want to say. But it’s a wide representation of the general—not local community necessarily, but the state concerns. And there’s people from Seattle on that, from down in Salem, Oregon, and around the area. That’s been in existence—gosh, I don’t remember when—it was probably around ’90 or something like that, ’91. It’s been—maybe not that long—but it’s been quite active for quite some time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: That reminds me—I meant to ask, when you were working on the site infrastructure, you mentioned some work with the tribes and cultural resources. Can you tell us about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah. I personally didn’t get too directly involved. I had a person working for me by the name of Charles Pasternak—he has since died. He was very, very knowledgeable. He was an archaeology-type thing, too, but he was a forensic expert-type thing, and was very, very closely working with the tribes. Well-respected by the tribes. He was invited into some of those longhouse ceremonies and that sort of thing. So he worked on that. He was the one that was the primary person for me. I got into a lot of the discussions and so on, but for the day-to-day activities, he was really tops. And would work with the SHPO office—the State Historical office in Olympia on stuff—on these writings and stuff. So it was interesting. But I didn’t get daily involvement there. I had enough in my other hands to take care of. But he was just ace number one on doing that. So I got familiar with the process and the operations and what the issues were and that sort of thing. But that was informative for me. He was sort of a mentor to me, to be honest, though, in that respect. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Do you know sort of how—one of the things I’m also curious about is the development of cultural resources and local efforts to preserve culture, preserve memory. On the DOE side, I know, today that’s done through a contract with the Mission Support Alliance. Do you happen to know when that sort of contracting began, or was DOE sort of also contracting while also working on it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: No, DOE was working primarily at the laboratory out here at Battelle. That’s where—and that’s partly how I got into it, I think, although I wasn’t administering to Battelle Lab at that time. But that all function was under the laboratory. It was after I left that Mission Support Alliance came into existence here. And then they took over a lot of that support type activity. But, no, the laboratory, and Jim Shatters was involved, Mona Wright was involved out there for the lab. Paul Harvey was—not Paul Harvey—Dave Harvey was involved in some of that out there, along with the history. And Michele Gerber on the historic—the Hanford history type stuff. So that was all with Battelle. And then that moved it, I think, when Mission Support Alliance—and that was after, basically, after I left. So that was there. But, no, there was quite an interest—not as much as there is today—again, that’s a fault, I can say, of us who were in the department at that time. We really weren’t on board extensively on the history protection stuff. Although the contractor, Battelle out there, and others were doing that. But I don’t think DOE was following. And then that’s when I discovered that, gosh, we really have a responsibility here. And that’s when I hired this Charles Pasternak who came over from GSA and had been doing that sort of thing down in Phoenix, Arizona. So I said, we really need—so I hired him. And as I say, he was—that was his livelihood so to speak. And that’s when I think we began then to pick up on that sort of thing. I had an extreme interest in doing it and I got to know Mona Wright real well at Battelle. Tom Marceau was involved in that out there. And Tom can give you the whole history there with the laboratory at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What sort of day-to-day work—was it Charles Pasternak? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Pasternak, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What sort of work was he doing? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, it was this whole cultural resources area. He was, as I say, an archaeology type and that was his training. So he did all of the work a lot with SHPO up there when we got into some of these areas where they needed—we needed to know the 106 process, and all of that sort of thing. So Charles was our main person to follow that. But I had the interest, also, of John Wagner, the manager, even though I wasn’t playing that congressional role at that time. Because he, too, I think, recognized that we needed to do a little bit more there. And in fact—I don’t know if you’re familiar—but he’s one of Cindy Kelly, who’s with the Atomic Heritage Foundation---he’s one of the board members there. He had really an extreme interest in preserving the history. As much as he tried, he couldn’t get headquarters people—they always told him, John, you go back and tell them we’re not in the museum business. And that’s what the people here would be hearing all the time. But John himself was really interested in doing all that. I sat in meetings with him at headquarters where he’d really push hard. And they’d push back, that’s not our—it was their responsibility, but they’d just, yeah, okay, but we don’t want to spend a lot of time on that. So that was—but locally, I think we did well. I think we did very well at pushing that along and I got to give contract—credit to people like Tom and Mona and others out here on the contractor site who even pushed us a little bit sometimes. Which was good. That’s necessary. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Could you sort of sketch out for us your idea of sort of the history of efforts to commemorate the site or the work that was done on Hanford? In terms of, up through the B Reactor Museum Association--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah. Well, my interest was, again, as I learned more about it, was let’s preserve this history of this site, because it’s very unique. It’s really unique. And I had to avoid sort of a conflict of interest of joining BRMA while I was an employee of the department. So I was interested, though, in knowing what they were doing and I was in agreement with them and was very supportive when I could be in some of their activities. But shortly after I retired, then—not immediately, but not too long after, I did join as a member of the B Reactor Museum. That was in—well, quite a while later, because it in 2005, so it was quite a while later that I actually joined them. That was—the more I learned and found out about the uniqueness of the B Reactor and its history and its knowledge and its importance, I really, really got heavily involved. And that’s eventually, here, like a year and a half ago—I finally got off the Hanford Advisory Board because I was spending so much time—more time on that—and not feeling I was really contributing a whole lot. I mean, I’d make my comments and so on at the general meetings, but with regard to drafting formal advice and all that, which I was quite active in earlier, then jeepers, get somebody else who has the time and so on, and I’d devote more time to the B Reactor Museum Association. But, again, I’m, as well as my interest in science and technology, although not being trained in that area, I’m sort of a history buff. As a kid on, I could list the order of the Presidents of the United States, I remember. Zing, zing, zing. I can’t do it any longer. I’d have to stop and think about it, get it mixed up a little bit. But history was another area that I was kind of interested in. I like to read a lot of history books and that sort of thing. I think that was stimulated by my second year in college in a class I took from a history professor who was just interesting. And what I found so interesting about him is he said you can read the book, but let me give you some stuff, some of the trivia-type stuff that he knew about some of the personalities and some of the things that he had learned through his research and understanding about the true natures of some of these people and what unique features or attributes they had. That, I think, stimulated my interests even more. But it was in existence prior to that as well, but it just enhanced it a bit. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What sort of stuff has BRMA worked on in the time you’ve been with them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Oh, gosh. We have done extensive amount of work on some of the modeling to bring up some of the models that we have out there that can describe and portray better the actual activities in the instruments and the equipment in the area there itself. We did that. And of course our big effort was to make it a national park. That’s where most of our time, and that’s where I really got involved with and again working with the other two sites, Oak Ridge and Los Alamos with Cindy Kelly back in American—I mean the Atomic Heritage Foundation. We’d have monthly phone calls on proposing various kind of language that we’d like to see in the act and working with the Congress. My experience working with congressional staffers helped a little bit there, I think, but so did Cindy, who—and I first knew Cindy, basically when she was in DOE—worked for DOE in the headquarters in the cultural resource area and all of that area. So that’s how I got to know Cindy. And then later on, we kind of met again, then, when we were working on the B Reactor. So the biggest contribution, I think, was the effort from the very beginning. B Reactor was—not B Reactor, but the BRMA association—B Reactor Museum Association—was established formally in ’91, but was actually in ’90 or so when it began to formally—and how that all happened was that there was in existence here at the time—we called it the Tri-Cities or maybe they were Richland—I don’t know—Technical Society. And that was made up of all the various tech—whether it be electrical engineers, or civil engineers, the chemical engineers, nuclear engineers, the health physicists and so on. They had this net group where there was things in common and commonality. When the announcement was made that they were going to get out of the production business and was going to start cocooning the reactors, the guy says, god, we got to preserve B. The history that goes with it. And I wasn’t part of that, then. But they organized a committee then to discuss further. And that’s when they decided to establish this organization, the B Reactor Museum Association, with the sole purpose to preserve for future generations the history and preserve the facility itself for public access and—for preservation and public access. Well, our mission is basically accomplished by getting it into the National Park. That was really keen. And we still have interests; we want to go along and develop the park and do all of those additional types of things and perhaps even taking on efforts to preserve a bit of the history of T Plant as well. Because that is identified in the park, and of course the pre-Manhattan Project history there with the farms and that sort of thing. But that’s been the key emphasis all along, was to preserve and make it public access to B Reactor. So there was a lot of work and working with the Department of Energy and others to clean it up and get it in shape where you could have these tours. I think it was 2009 or something when they started the tours—the more public tours. But I was involved earlier in that. There was still tours, but the tours were maybe for special groups or activities or maybe a college chemistry class or physics class or something would be coming to see it. Or some of the elected officials or could be any special tours, I think. And then it got gradually working into recognizing that there would be—in fact, when I left in ’98, there was just a memorandum of agreement type between the BRMA organization and Westinghouse the contractor and DOE, what the roles and responsibilities would be. At that time, BRMA would be willing to provide docents—volunteer docents at the time, and do that sort of thing for these various tours. So I was sort of a tour coordinator then, to find out what audiences—there would be a difference between someone who was real knowledgeable about the reactor, and others who knew nothing about it—want to know what the audience would be so we’d pick the right type of tour guide and a person who was more familiar with it, who were comfortable with those kind of tours. So there got to be a fair number of those. But then it formally established, then, when the DOE started saying we will offer these public tours. In 2009 is when it really blossomed into much more greater things, when they announced the public tours and so on. These others were more tours where people would request and ask for them, we’d try to fit them in. And there were fair number—it got to be a fair number of those, and I think that’s what convinced DOE that we need to do something, maybe more publicly. And more recognition of its responsibility in Historic Preservation Act—you know, the Department’s responsibility there. So that’s what we did. But our efforts were then to, as I say, get the thing cleaned up, get it presented well, and have some of these displays and some of the models and someone that works close with Cindy Kelly at the Atomic Heritage Foundation who had this interest and this whole establishment she has, that foundation to preserve many of the history aspects of the Atomic Energy Commission and Department of Energy and its role in the Manhattan Project. So that was kind of where our focus was, was the preservation and public access and the models that help educate. And also, and we’re pushing more on that now, is educating students and so on. And we’re holding more and more tours for students, all the way down to the fourth grade, but particularly interested in high school and college students that want to learn more about that. That’s where we’re focusing more now, on interpretation and education and emphasis more on the T Plant. BRMA does the B Reactor Museum, doesn’t necessarily relate to the T Plant, but still, that all was part of the Manhattan Project. So our focus is more on the Manhattan Project itself and all of its elements. Which, T Plant is included—the first separations plant. Again, amazing plant and amazing work that’s been done there to get it initiated and started and working properly right off the bat, working. So that’s kind of the background there on my involvement. It’s been—the last three, four, five years has been heavily involved in primarily the effort on the Manhattan historic—the Manhattan Project Historical Park, to get it established, along with the other two sites. Some of the others in DOE, as well, the Dayton Project had decided not to really join pushing on that, but they—and we had meetings yesterday again with some of the Parks people to have things—a commonality—basic common understanding of the whole project and kind of presented the same way at all three sites. But then each site taking on its own specific role, ours being the specific—the development of the plutonium and B Reactor. Los Alamos, more like the weapons development and that sort of thing. Oak Ridge is supplying the enriched uranium and those aspects. They all have a more defined role in the broader picture of the Manhattan Project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Right. Did you ever get any sort of security—when you were making these models, I know there was a lot of sensitivity about export control and classification and all that, especially with models. Did you ever get any sort of push back on that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Not on the models. But what we did do, and that was a surprise, even to the local DOE, I guess they knew about it, but they should have—the reactor graphite that was left over, we claimed that. And thanks for thinking of Gene Woodruff, one of our members who’s a graphite expert, and I mean Gene can go and say, oh, that was made at Union Carbide. Scratch this one—that was made somewhere else. That guy. And I remember working with DOE in the laboratory—Gene was one of the top experts in the world. Again, we’ve got experts here—people don’t recognize—of the world. When there would be these international meetings or [UNKNOWN] Gene Woodruff was a guy to go all over the world talking about the qualities and the purities of graphite and how it’s made and all of that sort of stuff. He’s just top-notch. So anyway, Gene and a guy out at the lab—gosh, I forget his name right now, right off the bat—worked with our people in DOE headquarters’ national security to get us the—or to give us the excess graphite was there with the restrictions that it should be used for souvenirs and that we’re not to resell it. Of course, now there’s not quite the problem, but we didn’t want the Iranians or others to see how this graphite was made and all the purity and all that kind of stuff. Although I don’t understand, because you could still probably decide that if you had a souvenir made out of a piece of that graphite, anyway. But anyway that was—they just didn’t want a big block of this stuff given—sold or anything to someone. So we said, ah, well, we won’t—chop it up or use it in pieces or whatever. So we made that graphite model and that was done going through the whole national security system that said it was okay for us to have that, rather than dump it out here at ERDF—out in the disposal facility. So we got all of the remaining what we call old reactor—that’s the B, D and F—that’s the same type of graphite that was in those original three reactors. We got that as well as some processing tubes and we’re in the process of determining how we make souvenirs for the tours that come through in the park. And reminder, we already have what we call—we have these boron balls, too, that are used in the process to help scram a reactor if you need to. We’ve got those, and we’ve got the process tubes. So we also sell a little vial of these boron balls, and we collected the dust that we did when we made our graphite model and putting that into little vials. So it’s rather unique to this site. We’re looking at other ways to use some of these and what kind of doodads or gadgets can we make for souvenirs. Because we find that working with the Parks people is—oh, yeah, people, there’s something unique about the site, they’d like to take a souvenir back. So that may be some of our support, maybe, to keep continuing and give us our source of income there that—we’re not a great achiever of gathering a whole lot of money, but it does—and we work more on these models and stuff, working with Cindy Kelly and others on grants and that sort of thing to get our money to build these—make these various videos that we’ve made and these vignettes that goes along with when you’re visiting out there and that sort of thing. So that’s gonna be kind of emphasizing with the Parks people how we can best do this and how we can get that accomplished. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Can you tell me about coordinating with the other sites? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah. That’s—we’ve had several meetings with the other sites. There’s, again, another entity. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ECA, the Energy Communities Alliance? That was established by the former city manager here, Joe King, who established that. And that—I’ll just talk a minute what that is. That’s made up of the sites where DOE has locations: Savannah River, Oak Ridge, Brookhaven—you know, all nine sites or so, that would go forth in more of a lobbying effort to DOE headquarters on funding and what the needs and the issues and problems are there, as far as the local communities. And many of these were in common. I mean, there were particular areas might be unique to one site or the other, but the others would all support that. But then also there’s things in common that they really wanted to get DOE to recognize that they got to pay attention to. So that was established quite some time ago. The other communities, then, kind of had a basis on which to start on this national park. And particularly Oak Ridge and Los Alamos. So we would get—the three of us would often have—and Cindy Kelly with Atomic Heritage Foundation would kind of coordinate these—it was almost on a monthly basis—telephone conferences. We’d be talking where we are and how we’re going and what we need to do. And so that was very helpful and it was a cooperative effort. It wasn’t a, well, we want that and you can’t have that. It was a system that we all want to work together. And we met last July again down in Los Alamos for a meeting on those three sites plus one or two of the other Energy Community Alliance sat in on some of that. We’re meeting again in August in Denver. This time at Denver because that’s kind of a convenient among the three sites, and it’s also where the interim superintendent of the National Park’s located, so that she can be here. That’s Tracey Adkins and she was here in fact yesterday. One of our local what we call our parks committee that’s not—made up basically the elected officials of the community here, the four mayors, the county commissioners of Benton, Grant and Franklin County, and then there’s, besides elected officials, there’s the Visit Tri-Cities, TRIDEC and BRMA is on that. We’re more of an advisory group than we are to the mayors. But the committee is an administrative committee and that’s where I and John Fox and BRMA and Visit Tri-Cities and others sit on for short-term. I guess I call that the working group who gets the work done and so on. And then we get with the mayors and so on. It’s kind of either up or down, you know, that sort of thing. But anyway, the working with the other communities has been a very cooperative effort, and we meet now on phone calls once in a while—not quite so frequently, though, not once the legislation has passed. But we meet like once a year or so, just—and now with the Parks, too. It was formerly just with DOE, but with the Parks people actually present and with the interim superintendent of the Manhattan Project National Historical Park. So it’s a good relationship and I think it helps in the overall park and the Parks people are interested in working with the communities, too. They’re very—I find working with the Parks service very, very interesting and informative and they’re people who are very willing to listen and learn and likewise we try to exchange information and we learn what they’re process is and I think it’s been a very, very good relationship. And I want to give credit to Colleen French here at the local office has been extremely supportive of BRMA and all of the activities and go out of her way to have—like when we had the November 12th event out here raising the National Parks flag at the site and working with them. She’s been just tremendously helpful in getting that accomplished. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: What’s my question here? Could you give me an idea, if you know, of the sort of size of BRMA over time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: It’s small. That’s our real problem. It’s like most organizations, I find, you don’t find a lot of younger people joining. And that’s a—I think that’s kind of typical of our whole society now. Today, most of the mothers and fathers are both working, they’ve got the kids in school, they’re in soccer, they’re in baseball, they’re in football. Their time is very limited. And I find that in a number of organizations I’m in. So our group is very small. It’s—we only have about a total of about 70-some members. But our active members are probably 20 or something like that. And we have a fair number of people who are not in this community. They’re people who lived here or worked here before. One of the assistant general managers for DOE is still a member, living down the—not Los Alamos—but Los Alamos area and also a couple of them down in the WIPP site down in New Mexico. We find ourselves, I think—and we’re looking right now—what should the mission of BRMA be? And we’ve kind of—a couple of us got together the other day on—had a bottle of beer and sat in Hank Kosmata’s backyard on his patio and just kind of brainstormed a bit. I think we’ll say, for the next three, four, five years, however long, until the park is fully established, we’ll be working extensively with them on assisting in the interpretation activities. We want to emphasize more the education and working with particularly the high school, college kids but also the younger ages. We want to do more emphasis on the T Plant, which is a very key element in this whole process of plutonium and getting the plutonium that was needed for the weapons program. So those—kind of those three are the main activities we want to focus in and decide whether we morph into some other organization. Because the Parks are really interested in developing at each of these sites what they call Friends of the Park, and that’s a common thing among all national parks. It’s sort of a group that supports that local park and assists the Parks Department. And the Parks Department is not a wealthy department. They are very limited funding to all parks. They’ve got extreme backlog on the maintenance of all their activities. So they rely heavily on volunteer work, they rely heavily on these funding process of Friends of the Park, and they have a formal structure in developing it and authorizing and so on, because they, again, want to be sure that there’s precise accountability and all of that sort of thing on that if they’re gonna be associated with them. So we’re working this local community on this parks committee and so on of hoping we can establish that soon. Now, there’s a lot of competition so to speak there, because we’ve got a lot of other things in the community we really want to support. We want to support the REACH organization—they’re looking for funding. We’ve got the aquatic center, you’ve got the performing arts center, you’ve got all of these things. But nevertheless, there’s some people that don’t have to be members of this community that are interested in the Project history of the Manhattan Project and all of that, that you can get various grants and forms and that sort of thing from others. That’s something that we will probably eventually just go out of existence, because we don’t have a lot—I mean, I’m kind of the young kid on the block, actually in our organization, and I’m nearly 78 years old. We got a guy that’s the youngest kid—he’s 65! We call him the little kid brother. We’re losing people. The last two years, we’ve lost the remaining people who were there at startup of the reactor. So the history is kind of disappearing with them in some respects. That’s why I was interested, particularly these interviews that you’re doing here with some of these old-timers and some of the guys that were here, so we get that recorded, and we know what’s there and it’s so important. Of course, as you know, working with you on some of our early recordings that we had with some of our original people that are very, very informative and useful in terms of researchers or anybody that wants to use that information. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: So there’s also ways been a lot of interest among the public in the sort of more negative side of Hanford’s history. Has the down-winders and those sorts of groups influenced the telling of the history in your opinion? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Well, you know, we want to be accurate with our history. And we want to tell all sides of the history. That’s been sometimes a little bit of a problem internally, because, well, gosh, those guys, they just dump. But I say, that’s history. We’ve got to learn what the issues were and what the problems were. And the same—we get some people when the Parks people decided to have a few of the Japanese people sit in on the scholars’ group. I’m not at all opposed to that. I think we got to tell history. History’s got to be told accurately. And it’s important—we may not agree with some of that stuff, and we may not agree with their opinions or thoughts, but it’s only precisely true that we need to reflect what that history and what those events were. So I personally am not opposed. But there’s the real strong advocates in nuclear and there’s the anti-nuclear. We’ve got to show that as existing. We’ve got to recognize that. But I don’t think it’s given us any problem—the answer to your question—I don’t think it’s been an issue that creates difficulties or that we found is interfering with whatever we want to do. We’ve got to recognize it, we address it, and we think we try to address it in a very educational basis, in a very precise basis, and not in an argumentative or conscientious-objector-type—well, that’s not the right word either. But we just don’t want to be contrary to them necessarily. Just understanding that they’ve got a different point of view. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Have you sort of followed that controversy in your time living in the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, to some extent. I can see both sides. I think we need—particularly, I can see the need to reflect on what effect it had upon the Japanese. I really think that’s essential. Some of our people don’t agree with me. They say, well—they’ll say, yeah, that’s true, but, boy, if we hadn’t done what we needed to do maybe a lot more would be dead. That’s true, too, there probably would have. We’ll never know for certain, but—we hear of people and know of people that had probably saved their lives by the fact that they didn’t have to go and invade Japan. We’ve got some of our own members who kind of fit in that category. But I’ll never forget Terry Andre tells the story when she was at the CREHST museum when it still existed and an elderly Japanese person came in one day and asked her: Are you an American? She said, yes, I’m an American. Oh, thank goodness. He put a big hug around her. She kind of says, well, what’s that? She says, I would not be alive today if you had invaded Japan, he said. Because I was trained in our—I think it was equivalent to the boy scouts—which we were to be suicide-type defenders. And we were supposed to be carrying these bombs, burying us in the sand, along when the Japanese invaded, and blow ourselves up and try to get as many American soldiers as we could—or Allied soldiers as we could. So that’s one side of the story. The others you hear, but people have really suffered when they dropped the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So those stories need to be told, and that understanding has to be there so that there’s the pros and cons. And another interesting thing is, when we had the docent training by the Parks people, they were saying, try to not reflect your own opinions. Give them the facts—that yes. And they did some role playing talk about when someone says, well, should we have dropped the bomb? And they were playing with all the different ways you might address that particular question. And try to say, if they took one position kind of say, well, that’s true, but did you think about this or something. Let them decide themselves, but bring it more forth. And I thought that was excellent type comments that the Parks’ interpretation people and their docents, particularly did the training, bring forth those sorts of thoughts. I’m in agreement with that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: You mentioned this sort of pro- and anti-nuclear folks. Has that sort of politics gotten involved in the interpretation of Hanford’s history, do you think? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: I don’t think it’s got involved in the interpretation. Now, there’s people who will be critical of the fact that either one side or the other hasn’t been displayed enough. And that’s an emphasis that I really respect the Parks to—I think they mentioned, they got issues in the North and South War—the Civil War. The things down in Andersonville, Gettysburg—these—and the Arizona, and they really understand how best to portray that. They’re the nation’s storytellers, and they really want to hone in on the fact that we aren’t going to try to change anybody’s mind; we don’t want to argue with them; we just want to presents the fact more and let them decide. But maybe if they’ve got one position, just kind of let them know what some of the other people are thinking, too, and vice versa. So I don’t really see it as an issue or a problem. It’s something we’ve got to address and it’s something that got to be recognized, but we’ve got to do it thoughtfully and doing it with some knowledge of where we’re coming from and how we present that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. And you said that’s equally true for sort of the local health impact as well as the Nagasaki and Hiroshima? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: I think so. But again, that’s my opinion. I think there’s a lot of advantages and there’s a lot of disadvantages. I mean, I keep coming back to some counterpoints and that is the whole medical isotopes, and the medical radiation program and so on. I mean, there’s over 20 million radioactive diagnostic procedures in the United States every year. And there’s a likewise amount throughout the rest of the world. There’s not as many therapeutic, but almost. That’s the positive side. Now, there’s the negative side—that, gee, if you get exposed to it, that’s not good either. So, like most issues, nothing is clearly right or wrong. There’s pros and cons and I think we got to stop and think about those, and each person make up their own mind to where they may fit in that spectrum. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: How have the Tri-Cities changed in your time living here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: [LAUGHTER] It’s been significant. I see the major growth in housing. Gosh, when I came here south of the Yakima River, there was nothing—none of that whole area. West Richland was small and didn’t go out. The shopping, as I said earlier—there was hardly anything here to do in that sense. The amenities of living in the community, the education of WSU here and various arts performing type groups—just—it’s almost like day and night in that sense. I just—just amazing me, and I’ve been here a little over 50 years. It was kind of like a sleepy town almost when you first come—when I first came, I should say. Pasco was the biggest, I think, town at that time. Of course, it’s got its history with the railroad and all of that sort of thing. The growth of the housing and you wonder, how could more people keep coming in? Where are they coming from, and where’s all this activity—what’s this base? It’s amazing. But I think the biggest thing I noticed is the shopping and the industry broadened quite a bit. I think most people don’t realize how many small businesses we really have in this community—various outgrowths, spinoffs of some of the lab work and some of the other activities. I think we had one golf course here at the time when I came over in Pasco. We’ve got a lot of that. The water sports. I mean, it’s—and the surrounding areas, the wineries and all the vineyards. Yet the one other thing I remember when I first came and we first married, we used to go out and pick cherries or whatever where all houses are now. We still go out to some of the places to pick some peaches and stuff, but a lot of that stuff—and pears—you hardly see around. I can think back in those early days that we did all that. We go now in French’s out there where they have you-pick for peaches I think is one of the most popular places in town in the summertime when it’s peach time that they’re just so busy out there. But it’s changed. It’s just—but you know, a lot of the cities and so on—we’re getting people moving from the rural areas into more the urban areas, and we’re no different, I think, than some of the other major cities much bigger than we. But we’re staying—following kind of that same pattern. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So as we sort of wrap up here, there are probably—I don’t know—particular stories that leap to your mind from your time working at Hanford or living in the area, or any other sort of stuff I haven’t asked about that’s worth sharing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, I don’t know. I think one of the things that comes to mind is my involvement early with the kids in the community in the sports area and then of course, when my own son got into some of that with working with them. The other thing that kind of comes to mind, I said, I remember Christ the King Church, but like everything a growing—I’m involved in the building committee and making that church bigger, tearing down the old government-built building, all on volunteer-type work tearing down, basically. And things of that that you tend to think of not necessarily unique to me, but for a lot of the members of this community, where you saw so much volunteer-type effort, community effort, where family didn’t have their own personal family right nearby. And I saw that. My wife can speak a lot more to that, but I saw that early in ’63 still existed, where you saw this sort of social-type gathering of—and I don’t think we see that quite the same anymore here in this community. If it is, it’s more like kind of an organized structure, or organized stuff. It’s not just like somebody drops by or you get a bunch of families together and oh, let’s have a Christmas party, or let’s have this, that or the other thing. That’s kind of what I witnessed early, and not to the extent—as I say again—as my wife did in her family. But I saw that, and I see that kind of disappearing here. Some of the interesting things at work is like—I mentioned briefly earlier about the moonrocks coming back, the smoking swine—I was heavily involved in when they decided not to have the—I should say the smoking beagles and the swine. The swine is one of the closest animals that’s similar to a human. Their skin and all that. So there’s so much testing on radiation effects. A lot of these swine that was just evolutionary and helped the whole medical field. Well, we excessed those, I remember, in the process of excessing, where should we give it to? And it ended up—I was quite heavily involved in that—we gave it to the University of Minnesota, because they had quite an extensive program on heart development and heart surgery and stuff like that. They could utilize these swine and they had made a good proposal how they would care for them and continue in breeding them. Leo Bustad was the guy that developed those, like a full-grown was 150 pounds, was close to a human being, and all those sorts of things. And I think back about those sorts of things, about uniqueness, again, of science, of technology, developing these animals so that they—and there, again, you’ve got the other side of those people that are—oh, gosh, you shouldn’t be sacrificing animals. There’s validity to that. And then you look on the other hand—but look at all the benefits you get on that, and you can do it in a humane way, and all of that. So those things. Some of the stuff, I can’t describe now. I was not heavily involved in classified stuff, but there was some of the work out at Battelle that once it’s unclassified, it’s just unbelievable some of this stuff that you learn through that sort of thing. Those things often come to my mind, but I still—taken the oath that I’ll keep those to myself. That’s about all I can say about—but I wasn’t heavily involved in that. I didn’t have a super—I had a Q clearance. That’s another interesting story. When I was hired by DOE, they said, well—at that time you had to have a Q clearance before you could ever come on work and it took about three months to get this Q clearance processed. So I was home back in Wisconsin for about a month, just waiting for the clearance, because I wasn’t going to drive all the way out here and for some reason to find out that, well, we can’t take you. I mean, I had no reason to believe that, but I just had to wait out the process. So that was, again—and that was difficult in hiring early on when we were recruiting college kids and stuff. That was when we still needed that—that everybody needed—well, not everybody, but 95% probably of the DOE and AEC—it was AEC then. People needed a Q clearance before they could get on board. Well, people are anxious, they don’t want to wait around three months. They’re looking for a job. So that was one of the difficulties that comes to mind when I talk about out those sorts of things. But there’s a lot of fond memories and associations with people that you’ll always have. And some unique activities that occurred. And, again, I keep thinking about working with Wally Sale at the Consolidated Laboratory and how unique and different that was and how innovative his approach—and he’s the one that really is the creator of that concept. So anyway, it’s been—it was an enjoyable career. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> O’Reagan: All right, well thanks so much for being here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227234824"> Plahuta: Yeah, you bet. Thank you. And I appreciate-- </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:41:53 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1982-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1982-? Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Hastings, Doc Wagner, John Holstead, Paul Tomlinson, Sam Sale, Wally Volpentest, Sam Philips, Bob Jackson, Scoop St. John, Holland Ashby, Steve Murray, Patty Pasternak, Charles Wright, Mona Harvey, Dave Gerber, Michelle Marceau, Tom Kelly, Cindy Woodruff, Gene Adkins, Tracey Fox, John Kosmata, Hank Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maynard Plahuta Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/28/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-16: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Atomic Energy Commission Atomic Heritage Foundation B Reactor B Reactor Museum Association (BRMA) Battelle (Wash.) Energy Communities Alliance (ECA) Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) General Electric Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Mission Support Alliance Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fda26cb19779d92a2c99d388c60c061cb.JPG 2bdd1af2ebcb6e94b7a0dba47b60794e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jillian Gardner-Andrews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mel Adams Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jillian Gardner-Andrews: All right, so I just start talking and you start filming? Victor Vargas: Yeah. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. My name is Jillian Gardner-Andrews. I am conducting an oral history interview with Mel Adams on February 10th, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mel about his experiences working on the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name for us? Mel Adams: Melvin Adams. M-E-L-V-I-N, A-D-A-M-S. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. All right, Mel, can you tell me how and why you came to the area to work on the Hanford Site? Adams: Well, I started out after I graduated from college being a science teacher in high school. Did that for about 12 years. And found that I really couldn’t make a very good living at that. So, my family and I just went back to school to get a degree in environmental engineering, which was a newly developing field at the time. Because I really wanted to work in the environmental area. And as I was about fit to finish my program, saw an ad in the paper. Rockwell Hanford, which is one of the contractors at that time, wanting environmental engineers. So I applied and they called me up here for an interview. It wasn’t long that we were moving up here. That was in 1979. So—do you want me to just keep going, or— Gardner-Andrews: Mm-hmm! Adams: At that time, the Site was still largely into plutonium production. So as far as I know, the group that I joined, under this crazy Irishman [LAUGHTER] named Hank McGuire, was the first group that dealt with environmental issues. So I may have been one of the first environmental engineers actually hired at Hanford. Because almost all the engineers were either chemical, and there were a few nuclear engineers. But that was the emphasis at that time. And then over the years, of course, the environmental work became more and more important. Finally, they stopped making plutonium. So there was rapid growth in the environmental cleanup area. At that time, I had enough experience under my belt to manage the environmental engineering group. That was really interesting. Gardner-Andrews: Where, specifically, onsite did you spend the majority of your time? Adams: Well, I was all over the place. My office was out at 200 East area. Which isn’t far from PUREX, if you know the Site. There’s an office building out there called 2750 East. All the buildings at Hanford have numbers and letters. Anyway, I was out there for many years. A few years, I was actually in town, and so I was kind of back and forth. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. And could you describe a typical work day for yourself? Adams: Well, when I was a junior engineer, it was mostly supporting the senior engineer and helping him write engineering studies and things of that sort. After I became a manager, it was quite different of course, because I had six different managers and their groups to look over, plus a large budget with a lot of subcontractors. So at that time, I spent a lot of time on training and a lot of time on budgets and didn’t get to do much of the engineering work myself. But I had to oversee it, make sure it was properly staffed and the work was being done safely and so forth. Gardner-Andrews: Could you explain what exactly an environmental engineer would do onsite? Adams: Yeah, the field of environmental engineering is—when I took the courses, it was largely involved with air pollution and treatment, and mostly water pollution—waste water treatment. And there were some courses in solid waste management. So, it was how to engineer things to keep the air clean, and clean up water, dispose of solid waste, that kind of thing. There was a heavy emphasis also on monitoring in the field to detect environmental problems. So we had a lot of biology and chemistry. And then there was a large legal aspect, because environmental law quickly became very complex. Particularly after the Nixon administration, when he created the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act and so forth. And there was large concern about cleaning up—have you heard the term RCRA sites? These are sites that were badly polluted and they had to be cleaned up and the sites restored. So that got us into soils—understanding soils. At Hanford, groundwater pollution was and still is a major issue. So there was an emphasis on also groundwater hydrology and how to clean up groundwater. So I’d say at Hanford, the part I worked in most was contaminated animals and plants, groundwater, solid waste, and contaminated soils. Gardner-Andrews: So the animals that were contaminated and plants, these are the ones on Site itself? Adams: Yeah, that’s less of a problem today, because my group made some progress and there’s been a lot more progress since. But what would happen is we had sites where there was a lot of water—just billions of gallons of waste water disposed in the soil—directly to the soil. That went on for years when the plants like PUREX were operating. So we had a lot of contaminated soils, and plants like the Russian thistle would go down 12 feet or so, and they were good at uptaking things like cesium and strontium, bringing them to the surface. And of course then when they became tumbleweeds, they would blow towards the river. This—the animals would—well, the plants would also be somewhat contaminated and the animals would then become contaminated, because they would eat—herbivores like rabbits and so forth. And then they would spread out and through their waste, they would spread contamination. So that was a real problem. It’s been largely solved now. But we also had a lot of other problems with animals, like we would get calls from people and offices with rattlesnakes under their desk, and spiders and all kinds of things like that. One of the most humorous stories was, my group were called the Bugs and Bunny Boys—or the Weeds. [LAUGHTER] And they were a pretty interesting group. But they got a call from Battelle one day and said, we’ve got some lab mice that have gotten loose, and it’s upsetting our experimental protocols. We need to get these guys back in their cages. So the Bugs and Bunny Boys were called on to solve that problem. So they said, well, we’re going to need a lot of peanut butter and rolled oats. So I gave them an emergency order so they could go to the store and buy lots of it. One day, my manager came in—what are you trying to do, feed your family on the federal budget? So I had to explain to him that this was bait for the traps, live traps, so we could get these mice back under control. And he finally went away, a little bit embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] But those are some of the kind of jobs we got. Their workplace was really like a bizarre morgue. They had all these freezers full of animals that had been collected and were due to be analyzed for radioactivity. So there’s lots of animals in this freezer, and there was plant specimens everywhere. Plant presses and microscopes. You go out in their garage, they had—it looked like a farm shed: all these machinery to spray plants. What they would do is each year go out and spray all the Russian thistles and then come in and plow it up and replant with native bunchgrass. Because the bunchgrass can’t go down nearly as far to bring up radionuclides. So that’s kind of some of the—that was one of the six groups I had, and I would say they were kind of the most interesting. [LAUGHTER] Gardner-Andrews: So would the environmental engineers themselves do the research on the animals? Adams: Yes. And we—well, sometimes they would have to get help from Battelle or specialists. But they would collect and do most of the analysis themselves and write reports and all of that. The soil cleanup was a different matter. That involved a lot of soil sampling and my group would actually go in and do some of the pilot scale cleanup where they’d go into the trenches and survey it. Then bring in backhoes or whatever tools were needed to clean it up. So we contracted out a lot of the work, but not all of it. Another aspect was groundwater. Hanford has thousands of wells that are used to sample groundwater. There’s still about a thousand-and-some that are used even to this day to take samples, probably about once a month. That way the groundwater hydrologist can tell which way the plumes are moving and whether they’re growing or shrinking. Then we would go in and use pump and treat—pump the water out, run it through a treatment plant, and put it back. And that worked. So the plumes at Hanford, for the most part, are shrinking, have been for quite a few years now. But there was over 100 square miles of polluted groundwater. So it was a major, major effort. But anyway, when we were drilling lots of wells, we had like 14 drill rigs in the field at a time, with all the mobile labs and mobile equipment that was needed to go with them. We had to use a certain kind of drilling rig, which we got from the Texas oilfields. [LAUGHTER] So that was interesting, because we had a lot of contractors we had to watch over, the drilling contractors. Another little-known thing that most people don’t understand is Hanford is obsessed with safety. Not just radiological safety, but physical safety. We had safety engineers and industrial hygienists working with us to make sure all the work was conducted safely. There was a lot of training, a lot of procedures, a lot of trial runs before you even went into the field. So that was an aspect of Hanford. People think it’s just a nightmare, but it’s not. It’s highly controlled, highly proceduralized, and everyone has a lot of training. So it’s done—the work was—I felt safer there than when I was a teacher. [LAUGHTER] So— Gardner-Andrews: Okay. So what would you say that the most challenging aspects of your work at Hanford were? Adams: Well, depending on the time when I was there—I mean, towards the end the challenges were mostly managerial. But there were some interesting engineering challenges, which I got to do and be involved in, or directly involved in, in some cases. One of them was that there was a requirement, a code of federal regulation, that said that if you’re going to leave waste in place—and there will be some left at Hanford when it’s all done; it’s unavoidable—that you need to mark the sites so that if someone comes along 10,000 years from now, that you can communicate the danger to them. Well, so, we had to develop some markers. Well, the problem is, are people still going to be speaking English that live here? Are we still going to have, you know, technology like DVDs or at that time floppy disks, or whatever? So how do you design a marker? Well, to do that—and that project, I was working on my own, because it was a small project, money-wise. So I contracted an archaeologist who had been at all these sites, like the Great Wall of China, the Acropolis, Stonehenge, and all of these places which have been around a long time. So we started analyzing them and trying to get some clues as to how to make these markers. And I remember that one of the things you don’t do is make them of metal, because, like on the Acropolis, there’s holes where there used to be large metal shields, and the shields have been lost because people would scavenge them. So we didn’t want to use metals. How large do you make the marker? Well, at Stonehenge, a lot of the stones less than twice human size were taken. So, it’s got to be at least twice human size. So we’re talking about a pretty big marker. And then we had to figure out what languages to put the warnings on. We ended up with the six languages of the United Nations. Then the Yakama Tribe came along and said, well, our language has been around a lot longer than yours. Use ours. Well, that’s a good idea, except they didn’t have a written language. They’ve been working on it, but we couldn’t really use it, because it wasn’t written—at least at that time. So once we decided on the languages, then we had to decide on what to put on the marker, how to incise the message so it doesn’t get eroded. And we put on maps, we put on warning pictograms like showing people digging and then collapsing, things like that, so people would get the idea. You don’t want to dig here. These ended up being like an obelisk made of granite that were about—what—16 feet high or so. We never actually built one of those, because they’re not needed yet. But basically the 200-East and West area would be surrounded by these markers, such that, if one was taken away, you could still reconstruct the perimeter. And then we decided to make some subsurface markers—small markers that could be put by the hundreds into a waste site, into a barrier. So if they started digging, they would pull up these brightly-colored with the radiation danger sign on them, magenta and yellow, with the symbol that showed what happens to you if you keep digging. You know, a little cartoon. So we made hundreds of those. Those were made out of—well, we did a lot of testing with this pottery works. All kinds of testing to make sure those would hold up in the ground. And of course, pottery has survived for thousands of years from burial sites. So we knew that they would last a long time. But they had to be tested with ASTM tests—American Society of Testing. And to make sure that the colors would be retained and that the colors wouldn’t fade, that they wouldn’t break up in the soil due to temperature or water fluctuation, things like that. So that was really an interesting project. We made a lot of those, and there’s actually a sample at the display case at Atomic Brew. If you look, when you go in Atomic Brew, they’ve got a lot of memorabilia from Hanford. Somehow they got ahold of a sample subsurface marker. They’re about this big. So that’s kind of interesting. Gardner-Andrews: Are any of the subsurface markers in place already? Adams: Yeah, there was a lab. I don’t remember the number of it—building number—that was entombed some years ago, and there were hundreds of those markers that were put into that entombment. Gardner-Andrews: And were the markers themselves made onsite? Adams: No. Actually, we had put those out to bid and they were ceramic, of course. There was a potter back in Vermont that won the bid and they made them. Then we sent them out to testing. So that was kind of a little interesting project, making markers. Both the large and the small ones. Gardner-Andrews: Do you know if they’ll still be using the small ones in the future? Adams: I hope so. It’s a good idea. Of course, they aren’t to the point yet where they’re going to start building large disposal barriers. And we planned to put those in when the barriers were built. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up ordering thousands of those, and they end up going into these barriers. Because it’s still a requirement. Like, there’s a very large landfill out at Hanford that my team did the first work on. There’s been thousands of truckloads and they’ve got these huge trucks of soils and solid waste that have been dug up and put into that landfill. Well, someday that’s going to have to have a barrier put over it to keep the water, plants and animals out. That was another fascinating project, to develop that barrier. So, probably they will distribute some of the subsurface markers in that barrier. Gardner-Andrews: Can you describe the project of building—creating the barriers for the landfills? Adams: Yeah. That was a development project, undertaken by my group and with quite a bit of support from Battelle. The idea was that we wanted a barrier that would be made primarily of natural materials and that would function according to natural ecological processes and would last hundreds, if not thousands, of years without a lot of maintenance—or any maintenance. So for that, we got this idea of using what’s called the outflow law, which says that if you’ve got a fine soil over coarser materials, that soil has to be completely saturated before it’ll break through. So we felt that since we only had six inches of rain a year—not this year. [LAUGHTER] That we could make a fine-layered barrier over a graded coarse layer barrier. And then plant that with native bunchgrass, which would, as the water accumulated, evapotranspirate the water out before it could break through. And then we also had like a gravel mulch which has been used since ancient times to help store the water in the soil layer, and also to prevent wind erosion. So that had to be carefully designed. And then—so we had the design and then—oh, we used archaeological analogs—or actually geologic analogs. As you know, this area was hit by huge floods of biblical proportions at the end of the last ice age. And when the icebergs grounded at Hanford—what’s now Hanford—they melted and left these mounds called bergmounds. And these mounds had been there for 10,000 years. And some of them, they were layered almost like our barrier. So we studied the bejeebers out of those, because they gave us clues of what could last. And then we had out there also caliche layers where the water would go down to the soil and then precipitate these calcium carbonate chemicals. The water couldn’t get through that caliche layer. So we wanted to know, how does that work? Finally, we got a design for this barrier, but then it had to be tested. So we tested it in wind tunnels, lysimeters, which were like big cylinders, highly instrumented, with the layers in there. And we stressed those with water—twice as much as we usually get—and wind. We even put live animals on there to see if the badgers would harm it. Actually, they helped the barrier performance. So there was a lot of field data collecting and research that had to be done. Then finally—this was about the time I retired—they built a full-scale barrier over one of the cribs. A crib was a water waste disposal, and some of these are highly contaminated soils. So they built one over this crib, and they’ve been monitoring now—Battelle has—for ten years or so. Actually more like 15. And keeping all kinds of data, and it seems to be working. Because the water, plants and animals are not getting through it. So that’s called the Hanford Barrier. That’ll probably be used in some form or another for this large landfill and other sites that are left behind. Gardner-Andrews: So how do they go about monitoring it to see if the water, plants and animals are affecting it? Adams: Well, they have instruments they can put down that keeps track of the soil water. They can go in an excavate some of the plants to see how deep they’ve gone. They can actually do a water balance; they can figure out the evaporation and how much rainfall has been on, snowfall, on the barrier. So there is quite a bit of instrumentation that they can use to do that. Gardner-Andrews: Do you think that the snowfall we’ve had this year will have an effect on that? Adams: No, not unless it amounts to more than 12 inches of water. And I doubt if it reaches that much. So they did irrigate the barrier—parts of it—twice the annual rainfall. It didn’t break through. They also set fires on the barrier, because we have range fires. The bunchgrass that they used is actually—the native bunchgrass is very fire resistant. I mean, it’ll burn, but it doesn’t destroy the roots. So it comes back right away. So it’s pretty well-thought-out, and so far the data looks pretty promising that these barriers will work. And the natural analogs told us that as well. Then of course, they also developed mathematical models so they could simulate if we put on four times of water, what do we predict? Those simulations looked pretty good. But you can’t rely just on simulations. You have to actually test it. Gardner-Andrews: Was there testing done for if an earthquake happened? Adams: Not specifically. But, actually Hanford’s in a fairly low earthquake risk area. But we were concerned with the barrier about collapses, particularly if there was a void underneath that could collapse during an earthquake. So we actually developed a big pile driver with ports welded on it such that we could—it was like a big I-beam. We could vibrate that in; at the same time we could inject grout, which is like a cement, to fill up those voids as we pulled the hammer out, would collapse the voids, and seal it up with concrete. So we’re pretty confident that earthquakes aren’t going to really destroy that barrier. It’s like a really sturdy foundation for a house, really, or anything else. My group did, though, manage the seismograph stations that are around Hanford, and they could tell us every day whether there’s an earthquake or not. So it was a really diverse group that we had. We even had historians. Yeah, because we found that to analyze these sites to get data was very expensive. You had to either go out there with drilling equipment and portable labs and all that. But it would be much cheaper if we could figure out from the records that were left behind what we were up against. But the records at Hanford were very scattered, loosely organized. A lot of them almost got thrown in the dumpster. So we hired—because there were so many letters. Turned out that letters were the major way of communicating in those days. We hired historians and librarians to go out and rescue these, catalog them, study them, so that our engineers would know what to expect in any given place. That saved us millions of dollars. Gardner-Andrews: Where would these historians find the letters? Adams: Well, that was part of the job, was to figure out where all of the files were and go to those places and try to round them up, put them in our big library, before they got destroyed for whatever reason. There were libraries around Hanford that were scattered. A lot of it was in engineers’ files, so we had to, you know, plead with the engineers to let us into those, so we could pull out things we needed. So it was a big job—records management at Hanford is—was—probably still is a big job. Gardner-Andrews: Do you know where those letters ended up? Adams: Well, when I left, they were in a library in 2750 East. We had a librarian. I don’t know if they still have a librarian. There was a lot of photos that were taken inside of tanks, which could be very valuable. Towards the end of my career out there, we started getting data overload. There was so much data being collected from the tanks of just about every isotope on the periodic table [LAUGHTER] that it was very hard to keep track of all this data. And the engineers wanted to know, okay, if we make a transfer from one tank to another, how does that change the chemical composition of both tanks? Sometimes it would take these engineers and scientists months to figure that out. So we went to Battelle with some money--[LAUGHTER]—a lot of money. And we said, build us an electronic database to have all this data cataloged and accessible. And they did a good job. But then we said, okay, now design us a way to do an automatic report when there’s a tank transfer. And they did that, so eventually the scientists could order a report from Battelle, a few hours later get back a report that used to take them months to do. Major breakthrough. I think that’s still in operation. Gardner-Andrews: And would that be more of a here’s-what-would-happen report, or was it more of a this-already-happened and now what chemicals are going inside? Adams: Well, at that time we were more interested in what happens when you make a transfer. But the tank data can be, of course, used—like with the Vitrification Plant—to project what’s there and figure out what it’s going to look like as it comes into their tanks. So it’s both. At that time, the major emphasis was on tank transfers. Gardner-Andrews: And was there major concerns for how certain chemicals would react with each other, in terms of—like, for lack of a better term—bad ways? Adams: Yeah, like what drugs are you taking here? Yes. That was a concern. That’s one of the things they looked at. If we do this transfer, what’s the waste going to look like? Are we going to have more concentrations of one thing that might adversely react with something else? Another thing was criticality. You know, if you get too much plutonium together at the right place at the right time and the right configuration, you get a nuclear reaction. It’s not like a mushroom cloud, but it’s the same concept. And we didn’t want criticalities: bad news. So they could use this to determine, hopefully, if there’s any critical elements building up during these transfers. Gardner-Andrews: And so, to avoid that, it would just be, don’t mix this tank with this tank? Adams: Or don’t move as much. Or, if you do, mix it with something else, so it doesn’t get concentrated. I mean, there’s a lot of ways to prevent criticality. One of my chapters in the book that I wrote is about one of the cribs, which I didn’t work on, but it’s so fascinating. There’d been so much plutonium put in that crib that they were actually—and a crib is basically a drainage field in the soil—that they thought it might go critical. It’s hard to think of enough plutonium being in the soil to create a—phew—you know. But they went in and started removing some. To do that, they had to use a robot. A robot, and they used a mechanical arm to dig some of it out. They ended up digging—I forget the exact figure—pounds of plutonium from that crib so it wouldn’t go critical. So, yeah, that was one of the concerns: criticality. One of my favorite sites at Hanford was called U Pond. When I got to Hanford, one of the first environmental engineers, we had four ponds where there’s billions of gallons of water going to these ponds for waste—for disposal. They would drain into the ground. He said, I want you to look at the laws that you studied in environmental school and tell me if we have any regulations coming up that are going to impact these ponds. So I remember my first document out there was Pond Management and the Law. And being fresh out of an environmental law class, I said, oh, man, you’re in for trouble! [LAUGHTER] There’s RCRA, there’s CERCLA, there’s TSCA, there’s a lot of other minor laws, and they’re going to have a major impact. Well, the document went out to review, mostly at that time, chemical engineers. And they said, well, this is nonsense. We only have to worry about the Atomic Energy Act. So the report got put in my desk and was basically shelved. About maybe two years later, [LAUGHTER] the Department of Energy signed an agreement with the Department of Ecology in the state of Washington and the EPA, saying, you must follow RCRA, CERCLA and comply with them. That was a huge impact—still is to this day. And so I pulled the document out. [LAUGHTER] One of the things I learned at Hanford: if you write a document that is not well-received, just put it away for six months, and then you’ll need it. So now—and that led to a lot of job opportunities. Because later on my group got involved in cataloging all the sites. Are they RCRA/CERCLA, who’s in charge of them, which regulations apply, and all of that, was a big job. Gardner-Andrews: And what do those acronyms stand for? Adams: Let’s see if I can remember. RCRA is Resource Environmental Conservation Act—Recovery Act. And CERCLA was the Comprehensive Environmental Reclamation Act—close. It’s been a while since I worked on those. So RCRA and CERCLA were big deals. Anyway, so environmental regulations are—take a lot of time to comply with at Hanford. And that’s—some people say, well, that’s just bureaucracy. Well, yes and no. The RCRA and CERCLA really helped us group the waste sites and manage them in such a way that was efficient. So it wasn’t all bad. It wasn’t all just paperwork. In fact, there was a lot of analysis that went in: what’s the best way to go about cleaning this up? And it forced you to look at options. Gardner-Andrews: What would you say are—or were—the most rewarding aspects of your work? Adams: Well, for many years, the most rewarding aspect is that we would write papers and get them published in journals and go to conferences and make presentations. It was a lot of original work. Because we were doing things that had never been done before. Towards the end of my career out there, that went away. Not necessarily because it was all done [LAUGHTER] but the emphasis changed to, let’s just go in there and get the job done. So there was less opportunity to be creative, to solve problems, and to present that to your peers. So that was a real loss. But that was certainly one of the most rewarding aspects of it, was to be able to do that. Gardner-Andrews: What are some of your memories of major events on the site or in the Tri-Cities, such as the plants shutting down or any local, political or social things that you can remember from your time in the Tri-Cities? Adams: Well, I’d say one of the biggest changes while I was there was the transition from plutonium production to cleanup. A lot of things changed. Like security was not as strict. Didn’t need a Q clearance any longer, which means that the federal officers wouldn’t come in and interview your neighbors every year—does he drink? Does he pay his bills? All that kind of stuff. So that kind of went away. Our lunchboxes were not searched as thoroughly coming in or going out. There isn’t any plutonium really left at Hanford, except in some of the waste sites, dispersed in the soil. So that’s really a big change. A lot of the buildings have been torn down that were problematic. Like one of my first assignments was, we had this laundry that washed contaminated clothes called whites. Every once in a while, there would be contaminated lint blowing around on the street. So we were sent over there and I was just a junior engineer at that time, with one of the senior guys, to figure out what was going wrong. We traced it to a piece of equipment in the laundry called the hydroclone, I think it was. And it was clogged up and it was—the wet lint was getting into some of the ducts and so forth, drying out, and then ending up blowing out onto the street. Which is kind of disconcerting. So we got the rotoclone cleaned out and back in service. Well, that laundry no longer exists. There’s a modern laundry that they built, I think in town here somewhere, that does the laundry now. And it’s all automated and everything. But that was the most bizarre place I’ve ever seen. Because you go in the laundry, there was a line painted on the floor. And one side was clean laundry; the other side was contaminated laundry. There was no barrier or anything. Just a line painted. And the procedures on each side were completely different. Like the people over there were wearing whites, had certain protocols. And on the clean side, you didn’t need to wear whites, you know. That kind of thing. Just really strange. So a lot of those facilities no longer exist. And just as well. But that was a big change. So the cultural change from more rigorous secrecy to less secrecy was a big change. Gardner-Andrews: And when did you start noticing that happening? Adams: Well, the plutonium—let’s see, PUREX shut down, I think it was in 1980—I have to look in my book to see. 1988 or something like that. So after that is when it really started to change. Now, right now they’re finishing tearing down the PFP, the Plutonium Finishing facility. And so that means that the plutonium’s all shipped out, a long time ago. And so that’s just a big change. Like, to get in that place, you had to be escorted, even though you had a Q clearance. Yeah, so that was one of the major ones. Another change is, like I said before, when I first went to work there, it was a culture dominated by chemical engineers. And that changed drastically, because now we needed a very diverse bunch, including geologists, groundwater hydrologists, biologists, historians, environmental chemists—you know, the whole—geophysics—we needed a whole bunch of different specialties. That was a big change. Particularly from a management point of view. Because now you had to manage all kinds of different engineers with different outlooks on life. That could be interesting at times. Gardner-Andrews: Going back to talking about security, before PUREX shut down and you noticed a drop in the secrecy and everything, how did the intense security and secrecy onsite affect your job? Adams: Well, like in my book, they ask me, don’t you have some pictures from your time working out there? I said, no, I was never allowed to take a camera in. To take a camera in, even after PUREX shut down, we had to get a special permit. Well, so, the secrecy was—you had to be careful what you took in your lunchbox. You didn’t want to lose your pass card, your ID card, because that could [LAUGHTER] cause you some problems. You were restricted from going into certain areas. All your documents had to be screened to see if there’s anything classified in them. Like I said, your security review wasn’t as rigorous; you didn’t have your coworkers or your neighbors, you know, saying, well, he’s smoking grass or whatever. When they asked questions, it would be unheard of today, like, is he a homosexual? You couldn’t do that today. Shouldn’t do that. But those were legitimate questions back in those days, I guess, because of the threat of blackmail. They were really worried about—they knew that there were foreign agents working to get access to information. So I guess anything that could cause you to be blackmailed, like being in debt, or drinking heavily, would be a concern. That all loosened up and changed, quite drastically. Let’s see, what else? Well, I guess those were kind of the main things. Like, my wife never saw where I worked. Never. So there was still some walls between you and your family. I remember sometimes I’d go out and work overtime, and walk out into the hall, and all the sudden there’d be a guy with a rifle, or a woman with a rifle, body armor, the whole nine yards, pointing the gun at you. What are you doing here? And I’d have to pull out my ID real quick. [LAUGHTER] So there was constant patrols all over the place. Gardner-Andrews: Why would it matter what’s in your lunchbox? Adams: Well, they didn’t want you bringing anything in that might blow up or contain a tape recorder or a camera or anything that could be used to gather information. Same way going out, they didn’t want you going out with a tape recorder or a classified document or whatever. It was very, very rigorous. Gardner-Andrews: And when you mentioned that your wife never went to where you worked, did you find it difficult to talk about what you were doing? Were you concerned about talking to your wife or family members about the work you did onsite? Adams: Not so much, but in the early days of Hanford, that was really something. I mean, until the bomb was dropped, there was probably only half a dozen people that knew what 50,000 people were building out here, you know. And it was very rigorous security. I didn’t hesitate to talk much about what I did, except there were certain projects where I had to use classified documents. And I couldn’t talk about those. But she was restricted from coming out to the Site. Now, I understand that’s changed somewhat. It’s easier to get a pass to go to your son-and-daughter work day, that kind of thing. But yeah, it was—and that didn’t bother me. I mean, that was just part of the job. Gardner-Andrews: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford? Or living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Adams: Well, during the Cold War, it probably wasn’t any more tense living here than it would be anywhere else. I mean, most of the neighbors didn’t build fallout shelters that I know of. When I was a kid, of course we had, you know, drills where we had to crawl under our desks, that kind of thing. So I did notice that the Tri-Cities had, and still does to some extent, a very unique culture. It’s not so much a culture of secrecy anymore. But you can still see the influence of the early days of Hanford if you look for them. Particularly some of the old-timers are—you know. [LAUGHTER] Of course they’d probably consider me to be an old-timer now, but—are not as willing to talk about it as some of the younger folks. There was a time when, before Richland became a city, that if your light bulb went out, you just called up the GSA, and they’d come and change it. [LAUGHTER] That doesn’t happen anymore. [LAUGHTER] Once Richland became a city, everything changed as far as—you could buy a house, including a government house. Like, I go to one of the first four churches that was actually established by the government in the beginning. Now there’s all kinds of churches. But at the beginning there was only four churches, and they were sponsored by the government. So kind of interesting. You don’t find many places where that is the case. Also, many of the street names in Richland were named after officers that graduated from West Point that worked in the Corps of Engineers, and those are the street names. For instance, I live on Goethals Street. Goethals was a West Point graduate, worked for the Army Corps of Engineers, and he is the one that finished building the Panama Canal. Who would’ve thought? So even the streets are named after, you know, a certain class of people—certain people. So that’s part of the culture. Gardner-Andrews: Did you find it to be shocking, I guess, going from being a high school teacher to an environmental engineer? [LAUGHTER] Adams: Being an environmental engineer was a lot easier job. [LAUGHTER] And it paid better. [LAUGHTER] A lot easier job. I found some of the things I learned teaching high school helped me a lot on how to manage people and motivate people. Really helped me a lot. So I didn’t—other than being glad to be out of the classroom for a while—now I’ve kind of gone back to it; I teach science in my basement to kids. Gardner-Andrews: Oh, really? Adams: But—well, my wife teaches piano and some of them want to do science also, so they just come downstairs. Anyway, no, I didn’t notice a big difference, as far as—except it was a lot easier work. I do remember, they sent me to a week at UCLA management school one time. And this was many years ago. There was an executive from Silicon Valley there, and he said, you need four kinds of people in any successful organization: artists, judges, warriors, and explorers. Well, almost everyone at Hanford was either a judge or a warrior. There weren’t any artists; there weren’t explorers. Well, I actually took that advice to heart, and when I started hiring for the environmental engineer group, we brought in—it doesn’t mean they have a degree in art, but—people with more of an artistic temperament that could present things attractively, and people willing to explore new ideas. That helped a lot. Being a teacher, you were surrounded by people of diverse fields. Whether you wanted to be or not. Like, we had an ongoing battle with the English department. Like, you’d send a student over there to the reading specialist, and they would say—I’d say, he can’t read. And they’d come back after doing some tests: yeah, you’re right, he can’t read. Well, what are you going to do about it? I don’t have time to teach him to read. That kind of thing was very irritating. I found that some teachers were really slackers, and they wanted to be carried by the union and they were, to some degree. And I didn’t like that. [LAUGHTER] So I was kind of glad to leave teaching. But I did bring a lot of those skills with me. Gardner-Andrews: All right. Can you tell me about your books, but specifically your most recent one? Adams: Okay. Well, WSU has published three of my books—WSU Press. One was about the time I retired, which has been 14 years now. It was about growing up in the desert of Oregon, eastern Oregon. It’s called Netting the Sun. It was kind of a memoir, but like my latest book, it kind of wove the cultural and physical geography and history through the memoir. Then about a year ago, they published another book about eastern Oregon which was more of a guidebook with maps and photos, called Remote Wonders. And it has a pull-out map and a lot of photos. It’s designed to take you on a trip around the eastern Oregon outback, and see a lot of the interesting places that I knew growing up as a kid, that I’ve gone back to many times. My most recent book came out about three months ago. It’s called Atomic Geography, and it’s a personal history of Hanford. It kind of weaves some of the stories of Hanford and some of the cultural history of Hanford through my personal experiences. It’s not a real long book. It’s definitely written for the general reader, and it’s gotten really good reviews. It was named one of the top ten books from university presses this year. And that’s good, because university presses publish a lot of books. So I don’t know how well it’s selling, but I think it’s selling okay. They only pay me once a year, so. Anyway, WSU Press has been really fun to work with, but it takes about two or three years to get through the process of writing a book, they have to go through all of their committees, and there’s all kinds of editorial steps: it’s a long process. But that Hanford book is intended for the general reader. You can get a flavor of how the culture’s changed going clear back to the fishing by the tribes. You can get a feel of what’s out there: plants, animals, geology. Some of the engineering challenges, I go through in the book. And some of the supreme ironies of Hanford. Let me think here. Probably the major irony of Hanford is it’s basically a huge wildlife refuge! It’s not a wasteland, like a lot of people think. It’s 580 square miles, but only about 100 square miles of it—and most of that’s groundwater contamination—was ever used for any kind of activity that created waste. And part of it is now a national monument and a national park. So, yeah, it’s really irony. [LAUGHTER] Gardner-Andrews: Okay, Mel, is there anything we haven’t discussed yet that you want to talk about? Adams: I don’t think so. I’m kind of running out of steam. I’d just summarize by saying it’s a really strange, bizarre and interesting place. Gardner-Andrews: That it is, I agree. All right, well, thank you so much, Mel. Adams: Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/N3s8V4Mll-c">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area PUREX 2750 East Building Vitrification Plant PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1979- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1979-2003 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mel Adams Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Environmental engineering Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource Mel Adams moved to Richland, Washington in 1979 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1979-2003. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/10/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3709e8204c8899a93c9c81308951a94c.JPG 84a45b395471c72ce61c06a25b1e3919 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Lawrence Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Michael Lawrence on February 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mike about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Michael Lawrence: Michael J. Lawrence. L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, how did you come to the Hanford Site? Lawrence: I went—I grew up in Washington, DC. I was born and raised in Washington, DC, and I went to the University of Maryland and lived at home when I did so. And I was a physics major. Between my junior and senior year of college, I was fortunate enough to get one of five internships at the Atomic Energy Commission. That internship had me working in a division of the AEC, or Atomic Energy Commission, called the production division, which was responsible for, among other sites, the Hanford Site, because of its production of plutonium. During that summer, I actually shared an office with an individual who was responsible for the operations and missions of the N Reactor which was located here. So I had an opportunity to learn a little bit about Hanford at that particular point in time. When I graduated from Maryland with my degree in physics the next year, I had already been offered and had accepted a full-time job with the Atomic Energy Commission when I went back to the production division again to work. I was working on isotopes programs and other things when I was called into the director’s office one day. It just so happened that several years previously, in 1969 I believe, President Nixon had signed the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, and one of the provisions in NEPA called for something which, at that point in time, was not known at all. Something called an environmental impact statement. You had to do environmental impact statements for any major federal projects, and our division was responsible for two projects that were going to occur in the early ‘70s here. One was the design and building of the quite a bit. And also had a sense of what it was going to be involved dealing with the public on important and issues that were of concern to the public, like the Z-9 crib and plutonium production. Because one of our hearings for those environmental impact statements was held down in Portland. And I can recall going down there, and there were demonstrators in radiation contamination clothing protesting and all the rest. And you got a chance to see just how the public felt about it. But that was my first instance of dealing with Hanford. Then later in the mid-‘70s—again, I’m still back in Washington, DC; AEC had become the Department of Energy—and I was responsible for a program to manage and store commercial spent nuclear fuel. And that program, the contractor and site that was helping us out was the Savannah River site in South Carolina. But because of the heavy burden they had, I decided it would be best if we changed the management of that program, or the contractor working on the program from Savannah River to the Hanford Site and to the Pacific Northwest National Lab—at that time was Pacific Northwest Lab; it wasn’t a national lab, but PNL. And so I started coming out again and working with the people here. So I had a pretty good understanding of the community and what was out here, and I liked it. But in the early 1980s, in 1982 to be exact, after several years of very, very intense negotiation back in the halls of Congress, the Nuclear Waste Policy Act was passed by Congress which set up a process and legal requirements for identifying, selecting, licensing, building, operating, and funding a geologic repository for commercial nuclear waste from commercial reactors and defense waste from the production of plutonium, primarily either at Hanford or at the Savannah River plant. I was one of several people called down from where I was working in Germantown, Maryland, down to Washington, DC to work on the direct implementation of that act. Obviously, that was a very—it was controversial, it was huge, and the new Secretary of Energy at that time—his name was Donald Hodel, who had formerly been the administrator of Bonneville out here in the Pacific Northwest—he was very familiar with the issues involved. And I got an opportunity to meet and work with him rather closely. And after several years of doing that, he asked me to come out here to be the manager of the Richland Operations Office. Franklin: Wow. Thank you. That’s really fascinating, with all of your lengths between DC and to here. Did you—I want to ask—you mentioned a hearing in Portland where there were demonstrators. And that—I think it fits pretty well into what we hear a lot about how the west side and the east side of the state think about Hanford. Did you find a pretty supportive public here in Tri-Cities when you would come and hold meetings here in the area about, like, for example the Z-9 crib or other projects? Did you find a pretty supportive public? Lawrence: I wouldn’t use the term supportive, I would use the term very informed and knowledgeable. They understood, to a greater degree, what the risks, what the concerns were, what the precautions were. Not universally, obviously. There were—and I have a good example of what a protestor would be. But basically, they seemed to be more informed, and certainly they were more knowledgeable of the situation. So the further away you went, the less direct knowledge people had of the situation. And so consequently—and it’s understandable, you know, they really didn’t have the same—they didn’t know people who worked at the Site. They didn’t—couldn’t appreciate the values that they had, their sensitivities. So that would be more the way I would describe it. Franklin: Okay. Lawrence: What was interesting, and I just had alluded to, was after coming out here—this was in 1984; I came—arrived in July of 1984. And at the beginning of that year was when the PUREX Plant, which processed the fuel coming out of N Reactor and reprocessed it to recover the plutonium, had just gone back into operation after a number of years of being mothballed. This was all part of President Reagan’s buildup of our military strength and weapons complex to more or less challenge the Russians or the Soviet Union in their ability to do so. And so we were gearing back up, really, the plutonium production mission at the Hanford Site. It was obviously very controversial here in the Northwest. And it was just starting up, and there had actually been a leak from the PUREX Plant right after it started up. And what I found when I arrived here in July was that even though the people on the Site—the contractor and the officials here—were saying, no, this is what it was and this is what the effects were. There was very little credibility. People would not believe them. And there was a strong opposition to what they were doing. That was a challenging situation to walk into where you really don’t have any credibility. But the first week I was in town, first week as manager, down in my office in the Federal Building, which is up in the northeast corner of the Federal Building, seventh floor, looking out over John Dam Plaza and the park, and I looked out on the street, and there’s a person with a big sign and billboard saying, Mike Lawrence, carpetbagger, go home. And he’s just sitting on the park bench in front of the building. And I—you know, I’ve just arrived in town, and I’m looking at him. His name was Larry Caldwell. He was known to everybody in town; he liked to protest. And I’m looking down at him and I—I sort of like to engage. I don’t like to ignore things. So I said, you know, I think I’ll go out and talk to him. Well, that caused quite a stir. But I walked down and walked across the street, walked up to the park bench, introduced myself, sat down and we started talking. I wanted to find out, well, since you don’t know me, why do you call me a carpetbagger, why do you want me to go home? Let’s talk. And it was funny because in the midst of discussing this with him, I happened to glance back over. And if you’re familiar with the Federal Building, it’s just full of windows. Every window was filled with faces looking out. [LAUGHTER] They said, this is our new manager and he’s out there. Security was very concerned. But you know? It worked out fine. Larry told me what his problems were. He didn’t like the mission. I told him, I said, I understood that. I had a job to do; Congress had appropriated the money, and I’d been given a job to do, and I was going to do it the best I could. But I was going to do it trying to do it in keeping the public informed of what we were doing and being as upfront and—now the term is transparent. We didn’t use that term back then—but as transparent I could be in handling it. So that was my first direct encounter with a protestor, if you will. But I thought it turned out pretty well. But that gets to a broader topic that I’d like to address, and that is, as I said, the Department and its contractors, I found they didn’t have credibility. And I’m not saying it was anyone’s fault, but it’s my opinion that it’s very easy for organizations—Department of Energy, Richland, Hanford—to lose credibility. And the only way you regain that credibility is through individuals, by really engaging with people so they get a sense of who you are or who the people are doing the work. And so we tried from the very beginning back in 1984 to go out and to meet with the public, to engage the public, to be as open as we could to explain our perspective and what we were doing. Obviously, we didn’t expect everyone to agree with us; some people were just diametrically opposed to it. But you’d like them to at least sense that the people doing the work shared some of their values, shared their concerns, in doing their work. The best example I have of that is—I believe it was in 1985. Again, Hanford, because of our role going back into the nuclear weapons complex had been quite controversial. I received a call from the pastor of the Catholic church down in Kennewick, St. Joseph’s. And he said, Mike, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but the three bishops—Catholic bishops—in Washington State are having prepared a letter—very, very critical of Hanford, its operations, and the people who work there. And he said, I just think that it’s being, I guess—a focal point was being headed up by a person in Yakima where the bishop was a Bishop William Skylstad. And I happened to have met and knew Bishop Skylstad from my own personal dealings with the church. And so I thanked the priest in Kennewick, and I called up Bishop Skylstad, and I said, I’d really like to come—I understand you’re having some work done on behalf of yourself and the other two bishops, and I’d like to really come and talk to you about it. And so I actually took the president of Rockwell Hanford, who operated PUREX, his name was Paul Lorenzini—very, very intelligent, smart guy—with me. And we went to meet with Bishop Skylstad and he had the individual who was writing this who happened also to be a member of the Hanford Education Action League in Spokane. And, you know, I read what they had prepared. It was talking about the Department of Energy is lying about this, and they’re poisoning, and they’re making these intentional releases. And in discussing that, after a while, Bishop Skylstad said to me, he said, Mike, Mike, calm down. He says, you’re taking this personally. And I looked at him and I said, Bishop, of course I’m taking it personally. When you say the Department of Energy is lying, who is that? Who is it that you’re saying is lying? And it was amazing, because he just stopped; all of a sudden, it dawned on him. He said, oh my goodness, I never thought of it that way. But you had to put a face in front of the organization. And that helped a lot. Now, the letter still came out and it was still very critical. But it wasn’t as accusatory as perhaps it was. It says, we’re opposed to the mission. That’s fine; that I understand. But when you get into the motives and the ill will of the people, that’s where it goes a little too far. Franklin: Mm. Right. The difference between unintentional or passive action and then direct action. Lawrence: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about what it was like in the early ‘70s to actually—to physically get to Hanford from Washington, DC. Was it still very—was travel still kind of tough to get to Hanford? Or was there easy air travel or car travel? Or did you find it to be a little still off the beaten path? Lawrence: Well, it was a lengthy trip. Coming from Washington, DC, I would fly from Washington, DC to Chicago, Chicago to Seattle, then Seattle to Pasco. And usually that was like going United, and then I think there was—it was called Airwest—Hughes Airwest, owned by Howard Hughes. Then it did get significantly easier later on when Northwest Airlines had a direct flight from Dulles Airport in DC to Seattle, and then you’d fly back over here. I always used to enjoy those trips. I mean, air travel was a lot different then than it was now in that it wasn’t as—a chore and the like. It was a little bit more creature comforts in traveling as well. Franklin: When you mentioned NEPA and the need for the EIS, Environmental Impact Statement, and digging at Z-9 and I’m sure probably a couple other facilities—did that also trigger any kind of cultural resources work, archaeological digs? Were there ever any—was there any cultural resources work or things found? Lawrence: In the ‘70s, no. I mean, that work was right in the middle of the 200 Area. Which is—it still today is the most concentrated area. I believe, if I recall correctly, the EISs probably said—would address that. But not—I mean, EISs then were maybe 100 pages long. Now they’re—[LAUGHTER]—multiple volumes and many thousands of pages long. But I wasn’t aware of any. I think the first real instance of dealing with Native Americans and their concerns was with a project we had on the center of the Site called the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, or BWIP, which was on Gable-- Franklin: I was going to ask you about that next. Lawrence: --which was on Gable Mountain. But I’ll let you ask about it. Franklin: Well, no, I was going to ask if you—you talked about the Nuclear Waste Policy Act and finding a geological repository. And I was just going to ask, I assume that’s BWIP, then, that is the— Lawrence: Yeah, and, actually there’s a slight difference there. But the whole idea of the geologic repository, especially since I had been responsible for that program before coming here, led people to suspect or conclude that it was a foregone conclusion that Hanford was going to be named the geologic repository for the United States. And actually, when I came here, that Nuclear Waste Policy Act had set out a process for narrowing down until you had three sites that you would thoroughly characterize. We had gone from nine sites to five, and when I came out here, there were five sites under consideration. Once I was here, it was narrowed down to the three finalists, if you will: Hanford for basalt, Nevada for tuffs—that’s the Yucca Mountain Site—and in Texas there was a salt formation called Deaf Smith County. And so that was being looked at. Now, BWIP itself was not the geologic repository site. It was a test facility built into Gable Mountain—and Gable Mountain, of course, rises up and the geologic repository was going to go down several thousand feet. But it allowed the scientists to put heaters into basalt rock to see how the rock responded to it—expansion, contraction, did it attract water, was it pushed away, and the like. It was actually a quite successful project. We learned quite a bit about how basalt rock would interact. However—getting back to the cultural resources—during that period, we also found out that the Native Americans—the Yakamas, I believe—used to use Gable Mountain for vision-quest-type activities and places to send people on a spiritual adventure. This didn’t happen right away, but we finally worked out—because I saw no reason why we couldn’t—with a day’s notice, we let the Yakamas—we said, we will let you come on and go up to the site, and do whatever ceremonies, to do whatever you want to do. We just need to know about it. Obviously there is physical security and there’s safety we had to provide for them. But I think we were able to work out and arrangement with the Yakamas where they would have access. Perhaps not as freely as they would like, but it did allow some compromise to be worked out so they could still perform some of their religious ceremonies there. Franklin: Sure. So you came—you arrived in July 1984, you said. And that was kind of—that was under this Reagan era mandate of basically restarting production. Lawrence: Right. Franklin: Because it had just been N Reactor through most of the ‘70s, correct, and into the early ‘80s. So I’m wondering if you can just elaborate more on that mission and some of the activities needed and the push back—if there was any push back—and the whole thing. Lawrence: Well, there was opposition, particularly on the west side and in Portland to restarting plutonium production facilities. While N Reactor had continued to operate, the fuel had not been processed and plutonium had not been recovered in many instances until PUREX started back up. So that was the process of really then getting back into plutonium production. That’s what was leading to opposition to what we were doing. We did the best we could to try to go around and to explain at least what we were doing, how we were doing it, how we would interact. I can recall going with my wife to a meeting up in Spokane. I just went up on a weekday night and the Hanford Education Action League had asked me to come up and talk to them. It was clear. It was clear then, that there was very, very strong opposition to what we were doing. A person I remember asked me the question, did I realize that I was acting just like Hitler? [LAUGHTER] I said, you know, I don’t think of it that way. I think about what I do very seriously, and I’m doing something that’s approved by and funded by the government of the United States of America, from the President and the Congress. I have to do it safely, and I have to do it in accordance with the law, but that’s what needs to be done. But, again, it was another effort to try to get out and at least be present, answer the questions; you may not make them happy, but at least you know you’re there trying to interact. Franklin: And so how many facilities ended up being restarted or brought online from when you got here to when things were shut down? Maybe you could kind of walk me through that process. Lawrence: Well, as I indicated, N Reactor had continued to operate, because N Reactor, unlike the other production reactors that were at Savannah River, was a dual purpose reactor. It not only produced plutonium in the fuel elements, but the water which passed through the reactors for cooling it was then sent over to a facility operated by the Washington Public Power Supply System to turn turbines and to produce electricity, on the order of a gigawatt of electricity a year. And because of that, we needed to—the cycle of the N Reactor was different than other production reactors: it was on a shorter cycle. That was for production reasons, the type of plutonium we were producing. So N Reactor went from producing what was fuel grade—it was called fuel grade plutonium—for reactor development programs like the Fast Flux Test Facility and ultimately would have been a breeder reactor. It went to making weapons grade, which meant much shorter irradiation periods. Also, prior to their restarting of PUREX, the fuel was just stored. With the starting of PUREX, you would then let the fuel cool in the basin at N Reactor then ship it in casks on rail cars to the center of the site at PUREX where it would be dissolved in PUREX. The waste would be sent to waste tanks, the plutonium concentrate in a liquid form would be sent to the Plutonium Finishing Plant over in the 200-West area, where it would then be converted into a plutonium metal button about the size of a tuna fish can. And that would be then sent to Colorado—Rocky Flats Plant—where it would actually be fashioned into the material used in a nuclear weapon. So it was the facilities associated with reprocessing at PUREX, handling waste from PUREX, and the facilities associated with the Plutonium Finishing Plant for converting the plutonium to metal that were the primary set of facilities that had to restart. Franklin: And so then N Reactor was the only reactor that was operated during that time? Lawrence: It was the only production reactor on the Hanford Site at that time. And the only reactor that was producing water that was—steam—that was then used to produce electricity. There was another very important reactor at Hanford that was operating then. It was called the Fast Flux Test Facility, which had just started operation a year or so before I got here. And that was to be a precursor of a commercial breeder reactor. The developmental—the reactor, the full-scale reactor that was going to demonstrate the breeder process was going to be built in Oak Ridge, Tennessee at the Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But they built the FFTF prior to that in order to get a feeling for how the sodium cooling worked, the fuel worked, the interactions. It was a prototype, if you will, to see just how that system was going to work. And quite frankly, the FFTF was a tremendously successful test reactor and developmental reactor for liquid sodium. It operated flawlessly, really. Unfortunately, though, it shut down because the breeder program was canceled and there really wasn’t a need for it. People tried diligently to find a mission, to find a need for it. But it was a—it just wasn’t in the cards, and it eventually—it took until the late 1990s for it to be permanently shut down. But that was the other reactor that was operating when I came out here. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I’ve interviewed several other people that worked at FFTF, and they’ve all— Lawrence: Oh, and they’re very enthusiastic about the FFTF. And I can understand it. It was a great reactor. Franklin: Right, and a reactor with kind of a different mission than any of Hanford’s other reactors. Lawrence: Yes, yeah. Franklin: Save maybe the N Reactor which had a dual— Lawrence: No, it was very different. It didn’t have that plutonium production role. Franklin: How long did the production go at Hanford—that ‘80s Reagan era production? Lawrence: Well, in 1986, the reactor in Chernobyl blew up—April of 1986. That was in Ukraine, at Chernobyl. Of course, there was very little information coming out after the news of that explosion occurred. You couldn’t get in; the Soviets weren’t saying anything about it. But they couldn’t deny it, because you could detect the radiation coming. But people knew, generally, what type of reactor the Russians were operating there. It was graphite-moderated, water-cooled, and very quickly they came upon the fact that, wait a minute, there’s a graphite-moderated, water-cooled reactor operating in the US out of Hanford that’s called the N Reactor. So consequently, I believe it was in the first week of the Chernobyl accident, one afternoon—I guess it was a morning—in the lobby of the Federal Building, it was mayhem. There must have been 50 to 100 people, representatives from all of the television networks, the major newspapers and wire services—all there wanting to do a story on N Reactor, the Chernobyl of the United States. So I got on the phone to Washington, DC and I said, look, we’ve got a problem here. Because we had been told, do not talk to the press about this. This is one of the few times when I was manager here that we were ever given instructions from Washington about how to interact and how to manage the sites. The managers had much greater authority then than they do now. And there was only one manager here at that point in time, as opposed to three that they have now. So we had a lot of leeway, but we’d been told, don’t talk about it because it’s very sensitive; it’s international news and we’re concerned about it. So when I called and said we have this mob scene in the lobby all wanting to talk about and go see the N Reactor, they said, don’t talk to them. Don’t do anything. I got back on the phone and I said, look, there’s stories that are going to be coming out of here. They can either be based on fact or they can be based upon fiction. If they’re based upon fiction, it’s not going to be pretty. And it’s going to be inaccurate. And I said, look, I will not speculate at all on what happened at Chernobyl. I don’t know. I care, but I’m not going to say a thing about that. I just want to explain how N Reactor works and what its safety features are, so that they can see for themselves. So reluctantly but finally, they relented and said, okay, you can show them. Go take them out. So we got a big bus. We put everybody on the bus—it was multiple buses. And we went out to N Reactor. And as you know, that’s about an hour’s drive out. But they were chomping at the bit. And I can remember the look on their faces when they saw—I think they were expecting a little Quonset huts with steam rising out of vents and out of chimneys and all the rest. And when they see this massive building—and in fact we were able to open one of the doors, which was three feet thick of concrete and steel. They looked at that and they were kind of amazed. And I explained to them that although commercial reactors have a system called containment, which is a big steel dome, production reactors don’t. It’s called confinement. It’s different. So it leads to speculation. Well, you know, containment’s going to keep it in; confinement’s not going to do it. And I was pointing out how we had ways of safely venting steam and pressure so it wouldn’t build up, so it couldn’t explode. And we went through all the safety systems, showed them in the inside, the face of the reactor. And consequently, the next several days in USA Today—I mean, it was front page stuff. But at least it was based upon, well, you know, here are all these safety features. It still raised a lot of issues and concerns because nobody knew what caused Chernobyl, so how could we say it couldn’t happen here? We could only say, here are all the safety systems we have to prevent something like that from happening here. Now, ultimately, we found out over time, that what happened at Chernobyl was a physical characteristic called a positive void coefficient. But basically something that didn’t exist in the physics out at N Reactor. But the damage was done. We did need to do some safety upgrades at N Reactor, which we did. But ultimately, in 1988 I believe it was, the Secretary of Energy, John Harrington, in testifying before Congress announced that the US had now produced so much plutonium that we were in fact, quote, awash in plutonium and didn’t need to produce any more. And quite frankly, with that being the case, we no longer had a justification for operating N Reactor. And ultimately it was shut down. To this day, I applaud the hard work and dedication of all the people out at N Reactor. They worked on the safety upgrades and the operation of that reactor, they worked extremely hard and were very, very proud of the operation of that reactor. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to those people. They did a great job. Franklin: There’s several things that strike me as really interesting that I want to return to in what you just said about Chernobyl and N. One was one of the last things, that John Harrington, awash with plutonium; the US had produced enough. Did you agree with that statement then? That we were—because that would be, I mean, your boss or boss’s boss. Lawrence: Quite frankly, I didn’t know what the total plutonium numbers were for the country. I didn’t know what the total demand was. I do know that plutonium has a very long half-life and sooner or later, you’ve got to have more than you need. We had thousands and thousands of nuclear warheads then. So, I mean, I didn’t know for sure, but I knew at some point we were going to reach it, and quite frankly felt we probably had overshot. So I did not disagree with Secretary Harrington on that. Franklin: Okay, because I mean, we had passed mutually assured destruction quite a long— Lawrence: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: And I guess, we know a lot more now about our stockpile then than we did then. But it’s a very interesting way to phrase that. We’re awash in— Lawrence: Yeah, I mean, it conjures up an image that you really don’t want to have. Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to return to the Chernobyl thing. It strikes me as interesting that this reaction of don’t talk to the press, which is—you can understand in some way, because you don’t want misinformation. But isn’t that the same kind of criticism that we would level at the Soviets? That they were clamming up and not saying anything, and we wished that they were saying something? So this reaction to not say anything on our side is—could have been seen as—you know—being too controlling maybe perhaps? Lawrence: Well, I mean, it went against my instincts, but it’s understandable. The Soviets were the one who had the accident. Now, if we had had an accident and they said, don’t talk to them, I would have been incensed. But basically, we were just going along and people want to come in and try to write a story and say, you’re just like Chernobyl. Well, in a sense, we didn’t know what Chernobyl was, how could we have definitely refuted that? So I can understand their perspective, because, quite frankly, some people at other sites had been quoted by the press as saying, well, we think this is what happened at Chernobyl, or that happened at Chernobyl. And it was just—it was getting out of hand. So I understood that. That was—my point was, I’m not going to talk at all about Chernobyl, because I don’t know. I do know N Reactor. I do know how it works, and I do know its safety features; that’s all I’m going to talk about. And I was awfully glad they let me do it. Franklin: That’s good, yeah. I’m wondering if you could talk about—being in charge of the Site here, I’m wondering if you could talk about the effect of Chernobyl on employee morale at Hanford. Did you notice a particular change—what changed as a result of— Lawrence: I really don’t think I saw any change in the behavior of the people here. They were going about their work. They knew the systems and the procedures and the processes they worked by, the protections that they were given. I’ll tell you candidly one thing that always bothered me then and it bothers me today, is that sometimes people, they get off work and they act somewhat cavalier or bravado about the work they do. Whether it’s to impress somebody or what, I don’t know. But they say, oh yeah, we deal with this. You know, handling it not as seriously as it needs to be. I know on the job, they do and they have to. But then like a macho reaction at the Gaslight Tavern or something like that talking about what they’re doing. That bothers me because it leaves a wrong impression with the public. And it’s certainly not the way we act onsite. Franklin: I guess I’d like to maybe rephrase that question. Did you see like maybe a level of—or rise of kind of the fatigue of workers, maybe thinking that anti-nuclear folks or that there was a new public perception that this was really unsafe or that there was really an imminent danger at Hanford? Do you think that weighed on—did that weigh on you, or did that weigh on anybody else? Lawrence: Well, I think there was a sense on their part that there was an overreaction, that people were, in a way, paranoid and exaggerating the risk. They knew the risk. The people who work here know the risk. But they also know the precautions, so they can balance it out. And consequently, they felt like there was an overreaction. But even before Chernobyl occurred, there was an event that put the Site under somewhat of a microscope and an intense scrutiny, and that would have been, I believe it was September of 1985. Now, Chernobyl happened in April of ’86; this was September of 1985 on a Sunday, The Spokesman Review newspaper in Spokane came out with a multiday series on what they called the downwinders. Basically, they were interviewing and writing stories about an area across the Columbia River in Eltopia, Mesa, where farmers had experienced or felt they had experienced undue health effects—a number of health effects and cancers, and even some wildlife—some of their livestock being born with—there was reports of double heads and the like. And this was a major news piece done by a reporter called Karen Dorn Steele, and quite frankly she did an excellent job of researching this and writing it up. And I—you know, this is the first any of us had heard about this. That was on a Sunday-Monday. So, again, trying to engage on this topic, that Thursday, just several days after it had come out, we had a public meeting over at the Edwin Markham Middle School in Eltopia, across the river, with the public to say, we’re here. What are your concerns? This is—let us tell you what we’ve been able to measure and monitor, and you tell us what your concerns are. And I had some people from Battelle who—we put out an annual monitoring report saying, here are the releases, here are the quantities, here’s how they compare with standards and the like. It was somewhat emotional. You know, people are worried about their health and people dying of cancer and the like. But we also knew that we, in our numbers—we weren’t showing anything that should have resulted in something like that. During that meeting, one of the farmers who had been prominently noted in the article, his name was Tom Bailey, he actually got up and said, well, okay, we’re not saying that you’re doing that to us now, or that you’re intentionally doing anything now. But what happened in the past? What happened back in the ‘50s? When he said that, I realized that, although we had monitoring reports going back to the Manhattan Project—here’s what people were measuring and monitoring and releasing—most of those had been classified secret. And they had never been declassified. It wasn’t malicious; it’s just not a simple process to declassify a document. But I knew because of the extent of time involved, they could be. So, I then at that meeting said, you know, if you want to know, we can go back, we can review and declassify those documents and make them available so you can actually see what was being done. That seemed to both surprise but also satisfy. So we came back and started the process of declassifying monitoring reports going back to the mid-1940s. That is a time-consuming and expensive process. But we were doing it. And we were keeping the public—I used to have monthly press availabilities at the Federal Building and we’d talk about that. But we didn’t really have the first batch of documents, which was 19,000 pages deep, ready to release until February. Now, one thing I’d like to make very clear and to get on the record: we’re in the process of doing that—time-consuming and expensive—but in January, one month before we completed and released the documents, a Freedom of Information request was filed for those documents by an environmental group. I’m not certain of who it is, so I won’t say who it was. But it was an environmental group, filed a Freedom of Information request. And we said, wait a minute. We are releasing these; it’ll be ready next month—the first batch. The reason I raise that is because subsequently, to this day, I hear from time to time people say, you released those documents—they were forced out of you by the Freedom of Information request. And I say, that is just not true. We had—if you go and check the record, we had committed to doing that a long time before. Again, getting back to credibility—it was easy to make that charge. In fact, I had National Geographic call me about ten years ago checking a story and that specific point. Because they didn’t know if it was right or not and they were able to research it and confirm it. But anyway, we were able to release those documents. But when those documents came out—and this was a mistake on my part—there was a lot of information there, but where was the understanding? Where was the, if you want to call it, education of the public, so they could understand what they were reading? And very quickly, it was found that one of the monitoring reports from 1949 had talked about something called the Green Run, where fuel that had been cooled for shorter than normal, so there were radioactive elements in it, was dissolved and more radioactivity went up, intentionally, through the stack. Some of the background as to why that was done had to be deleted—because it was still classified. When this document—when that report was found and the Green Run was discussed, there was speculation that it was associated with human experimentation: let’s release it and see what happens to the public when it hits them. That was not the case at all. In fact, I knew from reading the documents, they had delayed the Green Run because unfavorable weather conditions that they thought might be harmful to the public. But nonetheless, since certain portions had to be deleted because of classification, we couldn’t really explain it to people. And that created quite an uproar. It’s normal and naturally you would expect people to think you’re trying to intentionally harm the public or experiment on the public. Ultimately, what we decided to do was that, even though we could not tell the public the intent of the Green Run, congressmen and senators from Washington and Oregon, by purpose of their position, have clearance and can be told. So I went back to Washington, DC with a person here from the lab and in a classified conference room in the rotunda of the US Capitol, we had the entire delegations from Washington and Oregon there, and we were able to explain to them the classified reason why the experiment was done and why it was still classified today. Tom Foley, who was later to become the Speaker of the House, from Spokane, more or less led the group. He appreciated it, but he pushed back. He says, I’ve got to have more to tell the public than that. I have to be able to tell them whether we know, but we can’t tell you. You’ve got to give me a little bit to tell them as to why it’s so classified. So I was able to get on the phone, again, back to the department, talk to them about it. And ultimately we were able to explain that the reason it was done was to allow the US government to improve their methods for determining and detecting what the Soviet Union was doing with their production program. Ultimately, it became known, if you measure the iodine and the cesium, you could cut back and see what they’re producing. And the reason it was still classified was that we were still, back in 1986, using that technique for nuclear non-proliferation detection around the world. So it’s since been declassified, but that was the reason. I felt that was a good use of our government and our representatives to represent the people and be able to explain to the people what was going on. But ultimately that whole—all those documents led us to create something called the Northwest Citizens Forum for Defense Waste, which was 25 individuals picked from a broad cross-section: academia, industry, church leaders—to be given the information and to be briefed on the information and ask and have answers provided for any questions they have. So they could act as the public’s representatives on what was being done. And that ultimately turned into all of the citizens’ groups that are formed at the DOE sites now. Where you have—here it’s called the HAB, the Hanford Advisory Board. But it was the first ever citizens’ group to oversee and look at what was going on at the DOE sites. Franklin: Great. Thank you for that. That’s really illuminating. Wasn’t it still a calculated risk, though? Sorry, the Green Run, the actual action itself. Certainly there’s still, I think, in the mind of a lot of people—even though it may have been check the release to see how much the Soviets were releasing, there still is a real calculated risk, though. Or do you think that there’s still a calculated risk there—that there could have been some environmental or human population damage resulting from a higher-than-average—or kind of breaking protocol that was set to release that much contaminate? Lawrence: Well, based on what I was able to look at and the rationale and how it was done, they were doing it at levels such that it would be a fraction of what the public was allowed to be exposed to. Even with that higher amount. It would just be a fraction. And that’s why when weather conditions weren’t right, and they felt it would rise above that, they didn’t do it. There are always risks. And were the standards that they were a fraction of, were they right, were they wrong, were they conservative, were they not strong enough? I mean, hindsight, you can go back and ask all those questions. But based upon the knowledge that they had at the time, they were being conservative. That also happened to be at the time when we were doing atmospheric testing at the Nevada Test Site. And you’re setting off nuclear bombs that people are going out and watching, you know, maybe 20 miles away. I’m not saying that’s right, and we know now it was wrong. But it was a fraction of the exposure that might have existed there. Franklin: Right. I get—yes. That’s very true and that’s a good point. I guess it just—the only thing that still strikes, at least in my mind, as a difference is that they’re informing the public about the nuclear bombs so people can go and watch them. Whereas the Green Run was kind of this—I think that maybe— Lawrence: Yeah, it was secret. No. Franklin: It came out after the fact. And it was like, what else could these guys be hiding? Because, like you said, there was already that level of mistrust there. Lawrence: Yeah. Franklin: It just seems like that event can never really shake that level of mistrust in some ways with some people. Lawrence: In hindsight, that’s true, but it was a very different time. A very different time. Franklin: Of course. That’s just an interesting legacy. So, thank you for covering Chernobyl so much. I just have one more question. What role did Hanford play in assisting the Soviets—Hanford and Battelle play in assisting the Soviets with Chernobyl? Wasn’t there a team— Lawrence: None at the time. Franklin: --that went over? Lawrence: None at the time. The Soviets didn’t ask for any. Ultimately, and actually when I came back to the Tri-Cities in 1999 and eventually started working for the Pacific Northwest National Lab, under my responsibility was the team we had at Chernobyl helping to build the new sarcophagus, the confinement structure, that now has been completed and rolled over the destroyed reactor. And I’ve been to Chernobyl a number of times and visited on that project. So we were involved in that. But I don’t recall us being asked to provide any assistance or having provided any assistance at that point in time. Franklin: I was wondering—I’d like to—Chernobyl made me think of another incident, maybe hop back in time real quick and get your perceptions on that. You weren’t here, but I know you were still working in the nuclear industry, and I’m wondering maybe if you’re going to guess what I’m going to ask about, but I’m wondering, in the late ‘70s, the Three Mile Island scare. I’m wondering if you—because you were not here at the time of Three Mile Island, right, you would have been back east. But I’m wondering if you could talk about the legacy of that incident and how that affected people’s perceptions of nuclear— Lawrence: Oh, it affected everybody’s perceptions of nuclear because—everyone in the nuclear industry had gotten a little sloppy, implying an accident cannot happen, it will not happen. You know, we’ve got all these precautions; the risk is so small, they’re non-existent. Well, nothing is non-existent. Everything is a risk, and if enough things go wrong, yes, you can have a problem. And they certainly had it there. Much more serious than they ever expected it to be. But in hindsight, the fact of the matter is, the systems all worked to contain it. There were never any releases harmful to the public. There was never a single fatality or anything associated with the Three Mile Island accident. I can remember exactly where I was when I heard about it. I was getting ready to go take a run at lunchtime in the AEC—or it would have been a DOE at that time—building. And someone said, hey, did you hear they had some reactor incident going on up in Pennsylvania? You know, it started then and several days later I was getting calls from good friends who we were godparents of their child who lived in Hershey saying, should we evacuate? And I said, follow what the governor says. I really don’t have any firsthand knowledge, but it really did shake people’s fears, because it led people to say, you said it couldn’t happen and it did. And that’s always a problem. Franklin: That’s such a tough issue of framing, though, right? Because you can either say, well, it could happen but we have really good safeguards so it probably won’t, which leaves open the door in people’s minds to something happening. Or you can say, well, it won’t, we’ve got this under control and it won’t happen. How do you frame—framing disaster seems to be a very tricky subject. Or framing the possibility of disaster. Lawrence: Yeah. In part, because you can say, just looking at risk and probability, you can say you’re more likely to be hit by lightning than to die from this. And you’re willing to accept one but not the other. It’s what people are associated with. And if they think, I don’t have to deal with that, I don’t even want to deal with that minimal risk. I just don’t want to do it. That’s understandable; it’s part of human nature. Franklin: It kind of comes to, we see this a lot in current day in dealing with—well, won’t go into that. But there seems to be a—there’s these fact-based arguments but they can’t always counter the emotion-based arguments. And a lot of the response to nuclear seems, in some cases to be emotionally-based and not fact—and immune, almost inoculated against the factual side of it. Which seems to bother many who have a lot of intimate knowledge, a lot of people who worked at Hanford who know the risks can’t ever seem to communicate that to the critics. I wonder if you could expand on that at all, being someone who would have been trying to communicate that to critics of Hanford. And how you’ve dealt with that fact-versus-emotion in your career. Lawrence: Well you see it—you still see it today. Fukushima is an excellent example of that. Assist you with the nuclear accident first. That tidal wave hits, completely washes over, and the plant loses all power. Now, most importantly that was an avoidable accident. Even as hugely severe as a tsunami was, if they just had have had the secondary generators higher and separated more from the plant, they wouldn’t have lost power, and the reactors would have been fine. In this country, we have that requirement. They didn’t have it there. So that reactor accident, which was catastrophic, it was devastating, could have been prevented if rules that we have here had have been used there. But the other thing—and this is more to the point you made—18,000 people were killed by the tsunami, by the flood, by all of the devastation caused by the tsunami. None were caused by the nuclear accident. And yet all of the attention is on the nuclear accident. And it’s not like, oh, but there’ll be 18,000 in the future—there won’t. You know, looking at the numbers, it’s hard to say if there’ll be any. And people are evacuated now, when perhaps they don’t even need to be, but it’s out of the fear of whatever’s left there. And consequently, because of that, it’s causing stress that have led to heart attacks and have led to fatalities. Are they caused by the nuke—they’re not caused by radiation, but they’re caused by fear of radiation or caused by fear of the displacement. So how do you put that in perspective, where as a nuclear accident has gotten all the attention, but a tsunami that killed 18,000 people, it’s sort of like, well, that’s an act of nature? And so, I really don’t know how to balance that. I do know that on NOVA last month, they had a very good show about that. Because nuclear is a carbon-free source of baseload electricity, and if we’re going to deal with climate change, I know I believe and many people believe nuclear has to be part of the solution. Franklin: Yeah, I would personally agree with you. I wondered—so, moving past Chernobyl then, you mentioned that as kind of a major—you know, it definitely is a major event in regards to people’s perceptions of Hanford. And you mentioned in ’88 this—awash in plutonium. How did it play out after that? What was the drawdown like? What happened in the community when that—when it was realized that Hanford was—the mission was going to change? Lawrence: Well, you know, there was fear, because Hanford—the Tri-Cities over time, going back to the ‘50s and ‘60s had gone through booms and busts. And whenever Hanford production was up, the community was good; whenever it was down, homes were for sale, property values dropped and all the rest. So there was a feel, that was going to continue. And if N Reactor was shutting down, PUREX was down, it was going to happen to have a devastating effect on the economy again. Of course, what also happened at the same time was the commitment to the cleanup mission and the negotiation in signing the Tri-Party Agreement, which led to the cleanup mission here, which has continued and kept levels and funding levels right up to where they were and actually higher than in the production days. Maybe not employment necessarily, but it’s close. But also the Tri-Cities has significantly diversified from Hanford. Still very much—we get through $3 billion a year from the federal government between the Site and the national lab in this community, and that’s got huge benefits. But we’ve diversified quite a bit. But, getting to the Tri-Party Agreement, that was a direct result of a legal decision in Tennessee in 1985 that said that Department of Energy sites had to comply with national and state environmental rules. Up until that time, it had been assumed that the Atomic Energy Act, that the department operated under absolved us from that, or we did not have to do that. When that ruling came down, ultimately, it led to getting together with federal regulators in the form of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and state regulators in the form of the Department of Ecology, to find out, okay, where are we in violation, what do we need to change, and how do we do that? You don’t do it instantaneously. Which, obviously, is clear. And that led to the negotiation and the ultimate signing in May of—May 15th of 1989 of the Tri-Party Agreement. But that has provided a rather steady employment, funding, and—you know, I realize it’s taking longer than people thought, it’s costing more than people thought. And fortunately, it’s not an urgent—it’s not the type of crisis where something has to be done immediately or here’s the catastrophic result. It’s a problem in slow motion that the main thing you want to do is get the solution right the first time. You don’t want to go hot with the Vit Plant and then find out it doesn’t work. Because you’ll never—you won’t get around to it again. So let’s make sure we’ve got it right. It’s been an enduring process, and I’m very pleased and proud of the enduring capabilities of the Tri-Party Agreement. Franklin: And what was your role in the negotiation and signing of the Tri-Party Agreement? Lawrence: Well, we—the Richland Operations Office had the responsibility and role of negotiating with EPA Region 10 and the Department of Ecology for what the cleanup agreement would look like and what it would entail. And we kept Washington, DC informed of what we were doing and we’d get feedback from them. But it was our main responsibility to do that. Initially a person by the name of Jerry White and then ultimately Ron Izatt who worked for me as division directors had that responsibility of negotiating. And they would brief me every other day and we would get involved. From time to time, I would have discussions with the head of ecology who was Chris Gregoire, who subsequently became governor of the state, on issues that they would rise to our level. Or with Robie Russell, who was the head of EPA regionally, on issues that would come up. But we eventually worked out, basically, the agreement: this would be done and this was the timeframe for doing it. Then it came time to saying, okay, this is what we’ve got. It was in December of 1978 when we had pretty much wrapped everything up. Franklin: Sorry—’88? Lawrence: I’m sorry. ’88, yes, I’m sorry. December of ’88. So I went over to Lacey near Olympia where Ecology is located, to meet with Chris Gregoire and her team, and I had Ron Izatt and a lawyer from our team, to talk about what we were going to do. And at that meeting—it was a Friday afternoon—they said, okay, what we want to do now is we want to take this to a court and have a judge bless it, make it law: this is what has to be done. And we couldn’t go along with that, and the reason was that the lawyer for the federal government is the Department of Justice. And anytime you go to court as a US government agency, the Department of Justice represents you. They do not believe in friendly settlements. They will fight everything. I don’t mean that to be critical; that’s just the approach they take. And I said to her, I said, Chris, if you insist on taking this to court, we, the Department of Energy and I, lose all ability to deal with this, and it goes into the hands of lawyers who get paid to fight it. And you’re going to win. You’ve got the law on your side. But it’s going to be two, three years from now at great expense. I said, why don’t we just sign it as an agreement, shake hands on it, and you wait for us to violate it, and then take us to court. And she—we went back and forth on that issue. EPA, by the way, had stepped back and said, if you two can reach agreement, we’ll go along with anything that you say. Because they knew we had the tough issues. And so finally, you know, she said, no, we need it in court. These were her instructions, or this is where the governor wanted to go. And I said, well, Chris, can we take this to the governor? And, fortunately, through my tenure here, I had wonderful relations, a great respect for Governor Booth Gardner, who was the governor at that time. And she said, sure, we can take it to him. Subsequently, the following Friday I went over by myself with her and we met with Governor Gardner in his office in Olympia in the state capitol. And I went through the message of, you know, I don’t have the authority to sign this in court. If it goes to court, Justice will fight it, you’ll win, but it will be two years from now or whatever. Didn’t sway the governor. You know, it was clear: no, we want this—we want the law behind it and make it in a court of law. I must have said the same thing three times. Always slightly different. Maybe I warmed him, I don’t know what. But finally the governor looked at Chris and said, well, Chris, could you live with it as an agreement until if and when they fail to live up to it and then go to court? And she said, you know, Governor, if you can, I can. And the governor says, okay, that’s what we’ll do. And so it was an act of faith and it worked for a long time before it ended up in court. But we would not have had the Tri-Party Agreement when we did in the manner in which we did without his willingness and her willingness to concede on that point and let us move on with it. Franklin: And so when the Tri-Party Agreement was established, what did that lay out for the future of Hanford? Lawrence: Basically, it took the entire Site and all the areas in which we were in non-compliance, whether it was currently operating sites—even though the plant wasn’t operating, there were still facilities that were operating that fell under the state, or old sites which fell under EPA. All of those things, and when they would be cleaned up, the schedule and process for doing it. And that’s what it laid out. It also laid out, like, the ability to modify the agreement as you went forward. Because the simple fact was, we were operating with nowhere near the degree of knowledge and specificity you would need to have hard-and-fast deadlines. And the other thing was, we didn’t know, and we still don’t know today, what the funding will be year to year. Okay, or problems that will come up. But there was a process in there to move with it and to let it happen. And that was, I think, one of the best features of the Tri-Party Agreement. And it required parties to act in good faith. And I’m pleased it did. Franklin: Excellent. Was there anything in there about any of the history at Hanford or preserving any of the historic activity at Hanford, whether—keeping buildings there or documenting the history in some way, or saving equipment or anything used in the process? Lawrence: Not really, no. I mean, this was all compliance. This was an enforcement order. But we did make sure that B Reactor was going to be one of the last things to be—actually, originally, they wanted all of the reactors out on the Site by the rivers to be decontaminated as best they could, and then they wanted to dig under the reactors, bring in the big crawlers they use at Cape Canaveral to move missiles, put it under there, lift up the block, and take it to the center of the Site. And I thought, oh, my good—and that was to be done early in the process. And we said, let’s move that ‘til about 25 years from now. Of course, subsequently they’ve learned how to cocoon and maybe that’ll be found to be good enough. But, I mean, that was—we didn’t have the level of specificity or knowledge or information that you need to do a good cleanup then as we do now. Franklin: I know that the B Reactor Museum Association was founded in the early ‘90s, but were there whispers then when you were signing that agreement or afterwards about saving B Reactor or saving something onsite as kind of a testament to the production at Hanford? Lawrence: There very well may have been. I just—I wasn’t cognizant of it. Franklin: Sure. So when did you leave working at the Richland office? Lawrence: I left in July of 1990. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you were—and why did you leave? Where did you go after? Lawrence: Well, in part, I went to work for a company in Colorado that was doing cleanup work. But I was only there less than a year when the state department offered me a diplomatic post in Vienna, Austria. Because that was right after the first Gulf War, when they discovered that the Iraqis had a clandestine nuclear program, and they wanted the International Atomic Energy Agency, who was supposed to monitor things like that, to become stronger and more efficient and effective. And the State Department decided that they wanted a person with technical knowledge and ability but who also had had some international experience, which I had in the ‘70s under a Carter program doing international negotiations. So they called me up and I went to Vienna, then, to do that. I left here, one, because the managers’ authorities had been greatly, greatly reduced. Franklin: Was that a result of the Tri-Party Agreement, or just from the shift or production to cleanup? Lawrence: In part, it was due to the Tri-Party Agreement in that as we were negotiating the Tri-Party Agreement—we had the responsibility for doing that here, but kept Washington informed of our activities and getting their agreement as we went along. And right after those meetings that I told you about with Chris Gregoire and Governor Gardner, that was in December. In January of that year, a new Secretary of Energy was coming in. Admiral Watkins had been appointed to be the Secretary of Energy. So he was transitioning in, and there was an acting secretary. Her name was Donna Fitzpatrick, who was interacting with him as this transition occurred. Acting Secretary Fitzpatrick—they all knew what we were doing here. But as it happens, the agreement was formally signed in May 15th, 1989. But three months prior to that—what would that have been, February—is when—you have to give a three-month notice before you do something like that, for public comment and the like. As it turns out, everyone was so pleased with coming to agreement that the announcement of agreement was made in the rotunda of the Capitol in Washington, DC. Governor Gardner was there, I was there, representatives of DC and the Department were there, EPA were there, and it was announced we had reached agreement and it would be signed in three months in May. You know, after the formal comment period and any changes that had to occur. Well, in the normal question-and-answer period that went on, with that announcement, the State said, this is going to be commit the government to be spending $25 billion for the cleanup of Hanford. Now, it just so happened that the very next day was Admiral Watkins’ first day as Secretary of Energy. During that first day, he was to meet with all of the site managers, including myself. That morning, when it appeared in the paper that Washington State says it’s committed to paying $25 billion—whatever that means—the Office of Management and Budget, which, evidently had been left in the dark—I don’t know. I had no responsibility to inform them. They called him up and said, what in the world’s going on over there? What are you doing committing us to $25 billion? We go into the meeting with the new secretary. And he proceeded to just chew me up and chew me down as to, this is the worst thing we’ve ever done, how could we be so bad and stupid, and all this other stuff. And I just sat there, and—you know, you can’t push back, really. You just think—and unfortunately, the former acting secretary, Donna Fitzpatrick was sitting next to him. She knew all about it, but she couldn’t do anything. And it really just set a very bad tone with the secretary. Subsequently, however, as the kudos started coming in about what a good agreement this was and how it showed good cooperation and compliance by the Department, Admiral Watkins was very happy to take the credit for the Tri-Party Agreement. But life was a little uncomfortable out here. And I decided then I was going to be leaving. But I didn’t want to leave in the first year, because I wanted to make sure the Tri-Party Agreement got off to a good start. So, subsequently when I did leave, a lot of it was about the fact that it just wasn’t the same job. And quite frankly, a very important tenet of any management job is never accept responsibility that you don’t have the authority to fulfill. If you don’t have the authority, but have the responsibility, it just doesn’t work. And I didn’t, and I left. Franklin: Interesting. How did you come back to the area? Lawrence: That’s an interesting story as well. After I left Vienna in 1985, I was hired by— Franklin: Sorry, you mean 1995. Lawrence: ’95, I’m sorry, yeah, I have my years mixed. 1995. I went to work for a company called BNFL, which stands for British Nuclear Fuels, Limited. And they had bought a company in Los Alamos, New Mexico and they asked me to be president of it. I was running the company, and then they subsequently asked me to move back to their Washington, DC headquarters for their US operations as the chief operating officer, which I did. But that was also the same time when BNFL had gotten the contract to design the Vitrification Plant for the Hanford Site. And they had brought in engineers and managers from the UK to head up that project here in the Tri-Cities. So, I’ve gone back to Washington, DC as the chief operating officer of BNFL, Inc., which is the US component. And shortly—not so long after it—I was there less than a year—the manager of the project in Richland came back. And they had signed an agreement of what they were going to do and the government was going along with it. It was basically, for $6.5 billion they would build and operate the plant and process the first so many million gallons of waste, for $6.5 billion. When that manager came back, he indicated—he said, you know—he’s British; I’m not going to do a British accent—but he said, you know, I really—I’m not fitting in well with the community. I just don’t understand those people out there. I don’t fit in well with the community. We need somebody out there who understands things. Well, I love this community. I know this community. They were very, very good to me and my family when we were here. So I raised my hand and said, I know those people. This was our biggest project by far for our company, I’d be willing to go out and head up the project. And so subsequently, I came out to head up the Vit Plant. Within a week of getting here, I had to go and report to the new Office of River Protection, which had responsibility for it, what the status was of our cost estimates. I had only been here a week, so they give me the numbers. And I asked the—are they aware of this? Yeah, they’re aware of this. So I went in and, oh, all hell broke loose. Because the number—it had risen. It was higher than 6.5. And Dick French, who was the head of the project, rightly so, says, I can’t—this is terrible. Your first report—and it’s over budget already. And I knew Dick, and I understood his position. And basically, I said, let me go back and find out what’s going on. I was told you were on board with this. You obviously are not. Let me find out. I subsequently found out that there had been an arbitrary 20% cut in their estimates, thinking they were just going to drive things harder and shave things off and make it cheaper. And I had a—obviously, I had a major problem with this. Because in the beginning, you don’t shave back. You have contingency that’s built in and you work off. It doesn’t work the other way. And so I’d moved back here, we bought a house, I’m running the—and this project is going downhill quick. What was worse was that I tried to tell BNFL, we need to go to the Department and say, this number, $6.5 billion, for the plant and operations of it is not going to work. We need to renegotiate. We need to do something different. And I got nothing but pushback. We would not do this. And I was even—I said, you know, if we don’t do something, we’re going to be fired. And they said, they can’t fire us. They’re not going to fire us. And I said, I’m sorry, I said, I can’t continue to operate like that. So I resigned. Resigned from the project. Didn’t have another job, but I figured, I’ll find something. But I can’t continue with this. And within two months, Secretary Richardson had fired BNFL. Fortunately, a couple months after that, Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Lab hired me to run their nuclear programs. That’s how I came back, and that’s how I spent my first two years back. As managing a dying project and then transitioning to a new job. Franklin: And how long did you work at PNNL? Lawrence: Well, I worked from 2000 up until 2008. And during that period, I had responsibility—I was the associate lab director for energy. But in the latter part of that timeframe, I was also deputy lab director for facilities and was responsible for the putting together and funding and getting approved the new—they called it a consolidated lab—facilities that are just north of Horn Rapids Road and two private facilities that are on the campus. And then Battelle asked if I’d be willing to lead a team to manage the national nuclear lab in the United Kingdom. They had put together a team with two other companies to do that. And I said I’d be willing to do that. I had spent time in Europe already. And I went over and subsequently we won the contract in the early 2009. So in 2009 and ’10, I was the director of the national nuclear lab in the UK. And then I retired and came back and retired here in West Richland. Franklin: Wow, great. Well, thank you so much, Mike. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to talk about? Lawrence: Well, I’d like to get on record that I’ve been very, very fortunate in my life to hold some very interesting positions and to work for some phenomenal people. But the job that I enjoyed the most was as manager of the Richland Operations Office. There was a spirit, a camaraderie, a support, a community spirit that I felt there that I’ve just—as much as I’ve enjoyed my other jobs, nothing quite as good as that. It was really, really enjoyable, and aside from my wife and family, probably there was nothing better that had ever happened to us than to move to this area and be involved in these activities. I’ve really enjoyed it. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for coming in today. Lawrence: Okay, very good. Thank you. Franklin: All right, yeah. Lawrence: Thanks. Franklin: Yeah. That was a great-- <a href="https://youtu.be/SiYN7OCJOAs">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:23:14 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area B Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility N Reactor Vitrification Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1972-1990 2000-2007 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1972-1990 2000-2007 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Donald Hodel William Skylstad Paul Lorenzini Howard Hughes John Harrington Karen Dorn Steele Jerry White Ron Izatt Chris Gregoire Robie Russell Carter Governor Gardner Donna Fitzpatrick Admiral Watkins Dick French Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Lawrence Description An account of the resource An interview with Michael Lawrence conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02-01-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. 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This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 200 Area Atomic Energy Commission B Reactor B Reactor Museum Association Battelle Cat ceremonies Dam Department of Energy Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford Kennewick Los Alamo Los Alamos Manhattan Project Mountain N Reactor Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX Quonset hut Quonset huts River Road Savannah River School Sun VIT Plant Vitrification Plant War Washington Public Power Supply System https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3c413411ea8d1c48e6e84bda42239282.mp3 2575bc7fa8010f8e69011bf4d7f8bb42 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4e1534c3267da10f21862c5e0b5e4285.pdf e2f6bd92000c64ce2cddf98f29040189 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mike Lawrence Location The location of the interview Richland, WA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:28:38 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor, Basalt Waste Isolation Project (BWIP), Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mike Lawrence Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Discusses Hanford's N Reactor, addresses its unique dual mission as both a production and power reactor, the significance of safety upgrades post-Chernobyl, and the importance of openness and stakeholder engagement. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Department of Energy Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project for the Department of Energy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/28/1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.2001.025.1 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford History Project (HHP) operates under a sub-contract from Hanford Mission Integration Services (HMIS), who are a primary contract for the US Deparment of Energy's curatorial services for the Hanford Site. HHP proudly manages the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection, an artifact and archival collection that documents the Manhattan Project and Cold War history of the Hanford Site (1943-1990). https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4cdcadac41f6f67ab96b3d3139e0d7c9.jpg 528032f0f87e04a27c86a919beaffebe https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc1a50427e4983bc9810e7a2e0bc13041.mp4 81ff44062a749499e4b1d1f725603330 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mildred Balderston Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Northwest Public Television | Balderston_Mildred </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Robert Bauman: So let's maybe go back. So he was saying we didn't quite get the first couple minutes of our conversation. So if you could just, again, talk about what brought you to Hanford, where you were, and talk about your background, coming from Kansas, and so forth. Mildred Balderston: Well, I was working at the Remington Arms when I got a call from Hanford for people to come up there, when they were laid off at the Remington Arms. Bauman: So Remington Arms was in Denver? Balderston: Denver. And I knew that I was going to get laid off, because they were laying off all these people and just keeping a certain amount. And so I said to my boss, I would like to go to Hanford. He said, that's not a place for you. Just kind of like that, you know. And I thought, okay. It wasn't time for me to leave yet, so I was still there. So a few days later, I said, you know what? I would kind of like to go to Hanford. He said, that is not a place for you. So I thought, well, how am I going to get around this? What am I going to say? So I finally said to him again, you know, I would really like to go to Hanford. [LAUGHTER] I guess he was tired to that. So he said okay. Bauman: And how did you--going back a little farther--so how did you get the job at Remington Arms? Balderston: Oh, you put in an application. See, I knew they were coming to town, and they were hiring. And so I put in my application, and I got the job. Bauman: You had already moved from Kansas to Denver before that. Balderston: Pardon me? Bauman: You had already moved from Kansas to Denver before that? Balderston: I lived in Kansas before I went to Denver, and then when I went to Denver, I got this job, and then I started going to business school, so I could get a better job. And so then I worked in this, I think it was an insurance office, for about a year. And then I put my application in at Remington Arms, and I got hired there, so I quit the dental job. And they had a dormitory for us, and I said, well, I wanted to go to the hotel one night. So they had the Desert Inn. That was our first hotel thing or whatever you want to call it. So I went to that for one night, and then I went to the dormitory. And I lived in the dormitory for probably a year or a little better. And then they were reducing people here, so they made up a single girl's contract to rent a house. So we rented a house. There were several of us in the dorm that lived right in a certain vicinity. So we decided, well, we'll take a house. We got a house, and I think there were four of us to start with in that house. It was a three-bedroom. Then in about a year, one of the girls got married and left. So, we got another one in there. We kept adding to. We got another one in there, and then a year or so beyond that, another girl got married and left. We must have had three of them, because then I went home on vacation. And I had a sister who was a schoolteacher there, and she was kind of disgruntled with her school teaching. And so she wanted to do something different. I said, why don't you go up to Hanford with me? So she got rid of her contract. Just chop-chop. It wasn't any big deal. And she packed, and we came back up after my vacation. I think she made the third of us then, and then we had one more that we had to get. After the fourth one left--no, I guess it would only be the third one, because I was still there--I had four sisters, so as they graduated from school, they started coming up. So finally, we had them all up here, and so I didn't have anyone else in there, which was kind of nice. They got jobs here, and they stayed. And then, well, just one at a time they came, because they graduated—when they graduated, they came up. And so one went away to school, and one found a boyfriend, and she got married, and so she left. So there was just the two of us, and my folks lived in Kansas, of course. And of course, they decided, well, they'll move out here. Well, we asked them, why don't you come out? The rest of the family's here, so come on. So we went back and brought them out. But we couldn't rent a house in Richland. So we had to go to Kennewick. We bought a house there, and then my dad went to work. And that was kind of it. My sister and myself and my mother and my father, and so as time goes on, my father wasn't in good condition. As time went on, he wasn't able to work. And so I think he had a--I was going to say a stroke, but I'm not sure that that was it. And he was in the hospital for a while, and the doctor told them that he would only live five years. Well, he hung on to that five years for five years, and at the end of five years, he knew he was going to die, which he did. But the interesting part about this is he had worked with some people who sell houses and other stuff. And he had made friends with other people. So he goes around to each of these people just before he passed away to say goodbye, which amazed me. I just didn't realize that you do those kind of things. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, he did this. So then that left just my mother and my sister and myself. We had moved to a bigger house, which was kind of nice at the time, and besides, the one that we bought first had a basement. And we were afraid that the folks might fall downstairs, and we wouldn't be home, because we were working. So we moved to this house, a one story house. And so we lived there, and then my mother had problems. And so we decided we needed someone to take care of her. Now do you want all this kind of stuff? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: This is fine, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, if you don't want this kind of stuff, let's go on something different. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Okay. Well, I just wanted to ask you about the house she lived in in Richland, that first house. Where was that house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: That was on Sanford Street. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: It was a--what were those things we had? It was a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Was it one of the alphabet homes or prefab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Similar to a prefab, but I don't think that's what it was called at that time. Perhaps it'll come to me sometime close here, and I can back up a bit and tell you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Well, then I also want ask you about your job when you first came out Hanford. What sort of job was it, and where in Hanford were you working? What area were you working in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, when I first came up here, I went out to the 300 Area, I think, for a day. And then a job opened up in Richland, and I went in for an interview, and I took the interview—I mean, I took the job. So then I came back to town, and was there for a number of years. And then I moved around to other people that had job openings. So I kind of went up the ladder a little bit. And I enjoyed all of them. But while I was in the 300 Area, an interesting thing happened. I was taking dictation, and this man had the door kind of closed a little bit, because we weren't allowed to talk about anything when I first came. And so he was dictating, and he said a word that I--it was associated with a plant, but I didn't recognize the word. And so I repeated it, so I'd be sure and get it down right. My goodness, he ran to the door, and he looked out. Oh, we don't say that word out loud. So I thought, well, that probably takes care of my job. I won't have a job. But that didn't—I didn't lose it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Do you remember what the word was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I've tried to think of what that word was. I've tried and tried and tried to think what that word was, but it didn't come. It hasn't come to me yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So when you first came to Hanford, did you know what sort of work was being done at Hanford, what Hanford was being built for, or what was happening out here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: What is it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Did you know what was being done at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, no. It wasn't talked about. We just knew that there was a job at Hanford, and you go out there and do your part. Well, I didn't know for a long time what it was, even when I was out here, because you just didn't talk about those things. You run to the door to see if anyone had heard you. So no. I enjoyed it. I had good bosses; I had good jobs. I really couldn't have asked for anything better. I had worked in an insurance office in Denver, and then I had gone to the Remington Arms, and so I had that experience. But it was a good place to get an experience. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Do you remember what your first impressions were of Richland and the area here when you first arrived, what you thought of the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, we came in to Pasco on the train, and that was the dirtiest place I have ever seen. It was just awful. And I thought, oh, I hope Richland isn't like this. So anyway, they hadn’t gotten started working on Pasco by then. And when I got to Richland, everything was kind of in the new stage because of all the new houses, all the new equipment that was available. So Richland was a different story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And so when did you arrive then? Around what time period did you arrive in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I think it was the 14th of August in 19--probably '43. I think it was '43. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And what were the dorms like? You mentioned that you lived in the dorm initially. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, they were very nice. And then that building next to the building downtown in Richland. What's the name of that building? That brick building—that brick building that they built. And the post office was in one end of it. Well, right across the street was a cafeteria, and that's where we had to eat. And our dorms, the women's dorms were in that same area. The men's dorms were on the other side of Swift, I guess it is. But then we went to this house that they made for the single girls. And we did our own cooking, so we didn't have to go there. But those places can get kind of old after a few meals there. And so we were glad to do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: What sorts of things were there in the area for entertainment in Richland? Were there movie theaters at all or any places to go like that for entertainment? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I can't remember of any entertainment. I'm sure there must have been something there they could've done, besides the television. Oh, I think there was some--the high schools had ball, and so I think some of them went to that. And I don't think there was a fat lot of anything there, because we were so busy working. By the time you went to the area, and by the time we would get back, the day was far spent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So when you worked at the 300 Area or some of the other places out on the site, did you take a bus out there? Is that how you got out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: What was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: When you worked out at the 300 Area or some of the other places on site, did you take a bus there? Did you have to take a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, yeah. We'd take a bus from where we lived out to the 300 Area. Well, no. We would take it out to the bus depot, and then you'd take a bus from there. So yeah, we took a bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And you mentioned, talked a little bit about the secrecy—you couldn't say certain things or talk about what was going on or what your work. So do you remember when you found out that there were—what was being made at Hanford? Was it the end of the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: You know, I'm not sure. I can't remember when I found out about that. The thing is, knowing that we weren't supposed to know, it wasn't that important. So we didn't go around asking people, what are we doing? Just go ahead and do it. So I don't know. I can't remember when--it seems like there was a war or something, or people were going to war or something that it came out. But I wouldn't say, because I can't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So you said you started working in August of 1943, about? How long did you work at Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: 46 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Long time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So when you initially came, were you working for DuPont? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And then did you work for some of the other companies that came later--GE and some of the other companies? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Yeah, and I worked for—I can't think of that name either. I worked for DuPont. I worked for GE. I worked for—it was a telephone company, I think. It had the name of that, and then there were several others. So I wasn't just with one, but I just kind of went from one to the next you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Right. So, 46 years, that's a long time. You must have seen a lot of changes take place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: A lot of changes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: What are some of the changes that you saw--ways the community changed, or Hanford itself changed? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, actually, they really weren't changes to me. It just seems like we just moved from one thing to the next. And so it wasn't a change; it was just part of the show. So I didn't really realize that there were changes. I guess if I would've taken time to think about it, I would've thought, well, we changed from this to that. It just didn't dawn on me. I just worked, because I had a job, and whatever they told me to do, well, that was what I did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And you mentioned that your sisters came out here and worked also. Did they have similar sorts of jobs and work similar places that you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Yeah, they all worked out like at the site or someplace. And my sister that came out with me that was a teacher, she got a job at the—I think it was at the—it escapes me. But anyway, she eventually got a job to go to work for the company, and she was with Battelle for many years and had a good job there. And she really enjoyed it. I guess it was different from school teaching maybe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And did you say your father, also, after your parents moved here, he worked at Hanford for a little while also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, he didn't work at Hanford. He worked at one of the schools as a janitor. He had kind of done his thing, but he had to be busy, and so there was an opening, and so he went as a janitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So overall, how would you describe your 46 years working at Hanford? Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, I enjoyed it. I didn't go home grumbling or anything. I really enjoyed my time there. And the bosses I had were all really good, and it was a good experience. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: I did want to ask you about one other thing. President Kennedy came out to Hanford in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you remember that at all? Were you here? Do you remember him coming at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Vaguely. I kind of remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And do you remember if you went to see him speak at all, or you don't remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: No, because of the different areas. They didn't cover all of them, and so we didn't--some did, but a lot didn't get in on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about your years working at Hanford that you want to share or that it's important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, my last bout was 13 years in the 300 Area. That was my last--that's the last place I worked. So no, I was just kind of same old, same old. And so I only worked in the 300 Area and Richland. I didn't go any farther out, so now my sisters--I had two sisters that worked in the area, and they thought they had a hilarious time riding the bus and meeting all these people. So they had a great time. It wasn't something that we just took because there was nothing else to take. So yeah, they had a great time. And so I guess nothing was lost with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your story with us and letting me ask you questions. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:25 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mildred Balderston Description An account of the resource An interview with Mildred Balderston as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-20: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb9d0f93814a993cb4647297a4aba67a0.jpg 4bdb6633307697446efeebe6eacc1f29 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5860e0871ce50146e5899a1a69426bcd.mp4 36f3b018f208cb3c25f93d9c8058180e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stratton, Monte Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Stratton_Monte Camera man: Okay. I say we record. Robert Bauman: Yep. All right. All right, let's go ahead and get started. Get some of the official stuff out of the way first. My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Monte Stratton. And today's date is July 16 of 2013. Our interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Stratton about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So first of all, thank you for coming in and letting us talk to you today. Monte Stratton: Well, first off, you can call me Monte. I like to go by my-- Bauman: Will do. Stratton: --nickname. Bauman: All right. Well, Monte, I wonder if you could start by just telling us how and why you came to the Hanford site and when you came here. Stratton: Well, going back to the early days of my working career, I was at an ammunition plant in Kings Mills, Ohio. This would have been in 1943. And at that time, the war was in its heyday and actually beginning to wind down to some extent. And I had been given a deferment up to that point, because I was at an ammunition plant. But they needed some personnel here at the Hanford site which was being built, and I was interviewed by the person who eventually became the plant manager to start with. That would have been Walt Simon. They were looking for people that had backgrounds similar to mine. I was an amateur radio operator and had some electronic experience. I'm an electrical engineer by profession, and they needed someone with that background for the instrument field. So as I said, I was interviewed and accepted the offer. I came to the Hanford site in February of 1944, and that's when I got started here at Hanford. Bauman: And what was your very first impressions of the place when you arrived? Stratton: A long ways from home. [LAUGHTER] I don't recall any particular impressions. I know that I arrived in the wee hours of the morning, came in by train into Pasco. And were met by plant personnel who escorted me over to Richland, and I was given a room in the—trying to recall what—the hotel that was originally in Richland. And I spent a week there and then I was given a room in the last men's dormitory that was built. This was K8. But my first impressions of this place were so different from the East Coast, where I'd grown up. So it took me a while to get used to it. But I soon learned to survive. Bauman: And so you stayed—you were living in a dorm, a men's dorm at the time then. Could you describe that, like-- Stratton: For-- Bauman: --the size of it, or anything along those lines? Stratton: There were eight men's dorms here in Richland. And there was a two-story building. I don't think any of them are still around, but they used some of them for facilities afterwards. I was on the second floor, and it was--I don't remember too much about any particulars of the dormitory. At this point, I might mention something about the dust storms that were prevalent in those days. They were called termination winds, and I recall one day I was laying across my bed. This was probably a Sunday afternoon, just resting, left the window open, and one of those termination wind dust storms came up. And when I woke up, I was covered with dust. [LAUGHTER] That was one experience that I had in the early days. Another experience that I had while I was there in the dormitory, and this relates to security—in those days security was very prevalent. There were a lot of security agents assigned here as everybody knows. And one afternoon once again I was laying across my bed and I got this strong knock at the door. When I opened the door the person walked right past me and came over to a radio receiver that I had on the table. And this receiver had a send/receive switch on the front. And he says, we have to put a seal on that. This happened to be the receiver that I'd brought out with me. Being an amateur radio operator, I brought my receiver along. We were taken off the air, of course, during the wartime, but I had my receiver just to listen to whatever was of interest. Well, I had a hard time explaining to this security person that this switch on the front of this receiver did not do any transmitting. That's what he wanted to make sure, that there was no transmitting involved. So I opened it up and let him look in and explained as best I could. Actually, the switch only controlled some external device if you wanted to hook it. But I managed to get past that one. Bauman: And how long did you live in the dorms then? Stratton: About one year. As I recall, I was in the dormitory for approximately one year. During that period, I met the person that I ended up marrying. And when I married this person, I moved from the dorm into a house that had been assigned us. Bauman: And where was the house? Stratton: The house was a duplex, a B-type house located on Judson Avenue in Richland. And we ended up having two children and we moved out of that B house to where we're presently living, which is an H-type house, [INAUDIBLE]. Bauman: And how did you and your wife meet? Was she working there as well? Stratton: Oh, now you've asked a nice question. [LAUGHTER] It just so happens that I had a crew of people maintaining doing repair work on some of the instrumentation which I was assigned to. We had a shop in Richland, and one of my personnel was this girl that I became acquainted with affectionately and ended up marrying her. She was one of my, actually one of my workers. Bauman: And where had she come from to work Hanford? Stratton: She had come from Denver Ordnance Plant in Denver under similar circumstances that I came. At that time—this is a matter of interest—ammunition plants in different parts of the country had stockpiled their ammunition to the point where they were slowing down. A lot of the plants were either closing or slowing their operations. And the girl that I married had been working at one of the ammunition plants, and she was transferred here to the Hanford plant under very similar circumstances that I was. Bauman: So, let's talk about the work you did then at Hanford when you first arrived. Could you describe the sort of work activities you were involved in? Stratton: Well, when I first got here, I was assigned to a shop activity in the 300 Area. It was an instrument shop. And they were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project. And after that latter part of 1944, I was transferred to a new shop that had just been built in the 700 Area, an instrument shop. And that's where we were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you end up working at Hanford, and what other sorts of jobs did you have? Stratton: Oh, I worked at Hanford here until I retired in 1982. I worked in all the different areas, starting at the 300 Area, then to the 700 Area. I was sent out to F Area at the startup of that reactor. And then came back to the 700 Area and was there for several years, and finally was sent out to the B Reactor. The B Reactor started up and operated for a short period of time. Then it was shut down—I don't recall for how long—a year or so maybe. And I was sent out to the B Reactor about that time--or was at B reactor about the time that it started up on its second run of operation. Bauman: And about when would that have been? Stratton: I'm guessing, and I was looking at my notes the other day, trying to figure out exactly when that would have been, but I'm guessing around 1949. I could be wrong on that date, but that's approximately. Bauman: And what was your jobs at B Reactor when you were there? Stratton: To start with I was actually a mechanic doing maintenance activity. But after being there for a while, I was elevated to a supervisor again. And I worked in B Reactor and several of the other reactors over the years. I went to the K Reactors when they were just being built and followed those from ground up, spent about roughly ten years, either as a supervisor or in maintenance engineering at the K Reactors. Bauman: So you worked at several different areas then on the site. Stratton: I did. I sure did. After the K Reactor started slowing down and—I'm trying to recall the date. I think it was 1972 when my work in the K Reactors had gotten to the point where I was no longer needed there. And so I came to the 200 Areas and spent another ten years there in field engineering. Bauman: So could you maybe explain a little more, what would field engineering entail? Like, what sort of things might you typically do on a work day when you were working in the 200 Areas? Stratton: Well, for instance in the K Areas, it would be going out and checking on the operation of the equipment, seeing that it's functioning properly and making repairs if they were minor, or otherwise I'd call a mechanic to come and do the repair work. In the 200 Areas, I was doing both field engineering and field inspection for new instrumentations that were being put in place. Bauman: I want to go back a little bit to you said you first started working in Hanford in 1944. Right? Stratton: Correct. Bauman: Did you know what you were working on? Did you know it was-- Stratton: I've been asked that question many times. Bauman: A lot of times? Stratton: When did you find out that the—what they were doing here at Hanford? I might say this. My background being an electrical engineer and ham radio as a hobby, I had enough electronic experience in my background to begin to figure out from the instruments that we were using pretty much what was being done here at Hanford. So it took a while before I got all the details, but I started figuring out in the early days what was really happening here. Bauman: And do you remember when you first heard the news that the war had ended, anything along those lines? Stratton: I might relate one interesting experience. When they first made an announcement of what was being done here at Hanford, it was just a limited amount of information that was released to the news media. It so happened that my wife and I—this was in 1945—my wife and I were on a vacation trip, and we were at Mount Rainier. And when the news came out, of course, being the closed-mouth person I am, I didn't even say, boo, that I had worked at Hanford. However, my supervisor back in Richland was so afraid that I was going to start talking and say things that I shouldn't about the work that was, that he frantically got hold of me there at the—I think we were at Paradise Inn at the time. He was all concerned that I'd start talking. And I let him know right off the bat that I know not to keep—to keep my mouth shut and not talk—[LAUGHTER] other than what's official or released. Bauman: So he called you while you were on vacation to make sure you-- Stratton: He called me to make sure that I didn't blab my mouth, something I shouldn't say. Bauman: So you sort of mentioned a couple of times the security at Hanford, obviously. I wonder, and you lived in the dorms initially and then lived in a house in Richland. So in terms of security, getting onsite to work every day. Did you drive your car? Did you take a bus? How did that work? Stratton: As I recall, I was using the transportation that was provided, bus transportation. Speaking of security, reminded me of another instance. I might back up a bit here. The people that I had working with me in the 700 Area were available to maintain instruments out on the Hanford Project. We had certain instruments that we would go out and take a look at. So one day I sent one of my personnel out to look at this equipment out in one of the remote areas. And she had a run-in, so to speak with the guards at the gate. She had been doing this job quite a bit, got to know quite a few of the guards at the gate, and she would kid them going through. And this particular day there was a guard at the gate that apparently she had not become acquainted with. And she made—when he asked her something about the equipment that she had—some of the equipment would be taken out for maintenance purposes. He asked her what she was carrying, and she made some remark about it being explosive or something along that nature, which—that was the wrong thing for her to say. And she had quite a hard time explaining herself out of that one. Another instance of security that I can recall—we had some instruments that were manufactured and when they arrived, the meter on the front of the instrument read millirankines. That was a no-no from an information standpoint. We did not want people that were not familiar with what was going on—that was the very early days—what we were actually measuring. And we had to take every one of those instruments out of the case and blank out the word, paint over the word millirankines to keep people who were not privy to the information to be able to read it, know what we were measuring. That gives you an idea of how strict security was in those days. Bauman: And did you have to have a special security clearance to do the job that you had? Stratton: I was issued what was called a Q clearance at the time. I think it was the popular security clearance for most people that would have access to classified information. Bauman: Sure. I want to go back a little bit, again, to that first period during the war when you were living in the dorm. What sorts of entertainment was available on site for all the workers who were living in the dorms? Were there things to do for entertainment? Stratton: [LAUGHTER] I don't recall too much that I got involved in as far as entertainment is concerned. I was never much of a entertainment type person. I didn't do carousing around like some people did. I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment. I might say took some hikes. Four of us actually climbed up the side of Rattlesnake Mountain. That would've been in the early part of 1944. And on another occasion I got out and hiked up to the top of Badger. But I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment that I got involved in in those days. Bauman: And you said that you moved to Richland. You and your wife got married and moved to Richland. What was Richland like at the time as a community in the 1940s and the 1950s? Stratton: Well, in the early 1940s, it was a closed town, of course. And you had to have a reason to be here. I don't remember too much about the details. It just wasn't a lot of interest from my standpoint in the early days. Bauman: Can you think of any events or significant happenings, things that happened at Hanford while you were working there. I know President Kennedy came in 1963 to visit the N Reactor. I wonder if you were there at that time or any other events that stand out in your mind? Stratton: I remember going and seeing Kennedy when he came. I was off at a distance. I was working out in the 100 Areas at the time. And I remember going and seeing him at a distance. I'm trying to think of any other events of particular interest. I can't think of anything to mention right at the moment, Bob. Bauman: Okay. Were there ever any emergencies, fires or anything along those lines that happened while you were working that stand out at all? Stratton: Gee, I can't think of anything of particular interest at the time, Bob. Bauman: You worked, so you worked at Hanford basically from 1944 to 1982, right? Stratton: Right. Bauman: That's almost 40 years. My math. Stratton: Almost 40. Bauman: Long time. You must have seen a fair amount of change take place on the site, in the technology that was used or maybe some of the procedures or policies. I wondered if you could-- Stratton: Probably the biggest change would be in policies—that I can think of. Of course, equipment was updated tremendously over that period of time. And what we started with in the early days was antique by the time I retired. But I think maybe policies were some of the biggest situations that I can relate to. Bauman: Are there any particular policies or practice that stand out that changed? Stratton: Nothing that I can relate to right at the moment. I can't think of anything in particular, but— Bauman: Hanford obviously at some point, it was for years about production and at some point shifted to clean up. Had that started to happen when you were working there? Stratton: Not really. No. There wasn't a whole lot of that activity. Clean up pretty much started after I retired. Bauman: I wonder if there's—what you would like future generations, people who never worked at the Hanford site to understand, to know about working at Hanford during World War II and the Cold War era? Stratton: Well, the thing that some of the people wonder about—we were producing plutonium. Was that a good thing? Well, you have to look at it from the standpoint that the war effort was brought to an end primarily because of the work that we started here with the production of plutonium. It undoubtedly brought the war to an end. That's what the way we have to—the way I would like to look at it. Bauman: And you said you worked there almost 40 years. There were a lot of people who didn't. The termination winds sent a lot of people packing. Stratton: Those were—that’s true. Bauman: You know, what was it that kept you here for almost 40 years? Stratton: Probably getting married. [LAUGHTER] That would be probably the main reason that we decided to stay and raise a family here. I was working in a field that was of interest to me. Like I mentioned, I was a ham radio operator from way back. And I was in the instrument field and the work that I was doing was of real interest for me. And so I had no particular desire to move away from here. So I think that is one of the things that kept me here. Of course, we started our family and from then on this was home. Bauman: So overall, how would you describe Hanford as a place to work? Stratton: Well, for me it worked out to be a very good place. Young people that came along after I'd been here for a few years, like tech grads coming in for a short stay and they wanted to know, do you think this is a good place to try to continue working here? And I would always encourage them to go ahead and apply for employment here at the Hanford Project. Because I think if it was in their field of interest or field of training, that would be a good place for them to work. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about or any special memories or specific memories that you think would be important to talk about? Stratton: I think you've covered it very nicely. Well, I can't think of anything in particular to add to what we've covered so far. Bauman: Well, great. I want to thank you, Monte, for coming. Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Stratton: Only too happy to do what I could to--I don't know whether this will help the cause very much. Bauman: It's terrific. Yeah. Thank you very much. Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 215 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 area 700 area F area B reactor K area 200 area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1944-1982 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Monte Stratton Description An account of the resource An interview with Monte Stratton conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-7-1: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area B Reactor F Area K Reactor Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F87ecc987034864d62db62204d55d0bc7.jpg dc2f3a9d5d227b3e10b4c5f4fa23e851 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4a11178c5bbf0f118a20a21fbc52ebd6.mp4 5110673bb576657e77c232480aa3fb81 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dawson, Murrel Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Dawson_Murrel Murrel Dawson: I assume this will be edited. [LAUGHTER] Robert Bauman: Yeah, so we’ve had the phone go off and— Dawson: [LAUGHTER] Oh, this is not easy for someone who has not done it very much. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] It’s okay. Just, I mean, essentially, we’re just having a conversation about your family and your experiences. Dawson: Okay. Bauman: I’m not—it’s not like an FBI interrogation or anything. [LAUGHTER] Dawson: You won’t hold me tight to the dates? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: No, you know, in fact, yeah. Dawson: I think you have all the dates. Bauman: Yeah, it’s more the stories, the memories, the experiences that we’re most interested in, than the— Camera man: I’m rolling on both of them. Bauman: Good to go? Camera man: Yup. Bauman: Okay, great. All right, well let’s start maybe by having you state your name for us, first. Dawson: My name is Murrel Dawson. Bauman: All right, thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we’re conducting this oral history interview on August 6th of 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we’ll be talking with Murrel Dawson about her family and their experiences in Priest Rapids Valley. And so let’s start with that, maybe, if you could talk about your family’s history a little bit, maybe how they came into the area and that sort of thing. Dawson: Well, my mother and dad and the oldest four of his kids came from Prosser. It was right after Depression days. Dad had hired on to work at Midway, in the construction. It was under construction at that time. So we had about a month left of kindergarten—school, for me, talking about myself. And we went to Hanford to be near my dad. And we stayed with my Aunt Nell Clark and her family that had a home there at Hanford. And I went and finished my kindergarten there at Hanford. My dad hired on then at Priest Rapids as an operator at the little powerhouse. And they needed an operator, so there was an empty house there at the time. So they moved us up, or we moved up to that house. And that was in May of 1941, I believe, the end of May. And that's how we got there. Dad needed the job. Bauman: Mm-hm. And so he worked in construction? Dawson: He was, I would say, a laborer. And prior to that, when he lived in--he came from North Dakota, and I think when he lived back there, he had done some work as an operator for some company. I don't know what. But--so he had some experience at that. But during the Depression days, like everyone else, he just hustled for work, traveled for work, because we had four children in the family at that time. Bauman: And what about your mother? I understand she had lived in Hanford growing up at some point? Dawson: Mother's family--mom came from Indiana as a little infant. They came out on a train, settled in Hartline on a wheat farm. My grandfather was the civil engineer, I believe, county engineer for that county. Then I think they lived in Ephrata for a short time. He was not a good wheat farmer, I understand. [LAUGHTER] But he had several boys that did the work that were partly grown at that time. So then at that point, they moved to Hanford. Mother was a young child. And they farmed in Hanford, and my grandfather was a surveyor. He did the survey work for the soldier homes at Hanford. And my Uncle Howard, his son, helped him. That was one of the things. And he was also the engineer on some of these little bridges you'll see. One was across Crab Creek. I don't even think it's there anymore. But then about the time, I think, that mom was entering high school, they moved to Prosser. She went to school in Prosser, high school in Prosser, and that's where she met my dad, and they married. And I was trying to think--she, how many years would it be later? I don't know. But anyway, when I was in kindergarten, that's when they left Prosser. But mom actually graduated from Prosser High School. Bauman: And what was your grandfather's name? Dawson: Stradling was the last name. Edward was the first name, Edward Stradling. Bauman: Did your mother talk much about her time growing up in Hanford? Dawson: A lot. [LAUGHTER] She loves stories. Mom was a great storyteller. She tells about her and her brother John that were not the youngest, but next to the youngest two in the family. It was their job to herd the cows, bring the cows in, make sure they didn't run off when they went out to graze. She liked to tell stories of Grandma and the kids going down to the river for--they'd catch fish there at Hanford and clean them and cook them over a fire. Also about Grandpa driving his car out across the road to Prosser, where he did a lot of his survey work, and getting stuck in the sand and that kind of thing. And they would send her along so that if he dozed off, she could wake him up. [LAUGHTER] Keep him on the road, things like that. I don't know how much truth was in all of that, but they made great stories to entertain us kids. And my grandfather also laid out the cemetery in Prosser. He did the survey work on that. That's where my grandparents are buried. Bauman: Okay. And so did they have a dairy farm? What sort of farm did they have? You mentioned the cows. Dawson: In Hanford? Bauman: Hanford, yeah. Dawson: They grew--No, they did not have a dairy farm. That was just the family cows. And I think they sold butter and milk to the hotel, but they didn't have a herd, to my knowledge. They raised broom straw, sorghum, and something else. I think strawberries maybe. But it was row crops, what they raised. Yeah. Bauman: And then you said you spent very last month of kindergarten there. Dawson: Right. We moved to Hanford from Prosser. Daddy was up at Midway working. And we stayed for a short time with my aunt, and then we got a little house, rented a little house. So we were there I think probably the last month, maybe two months of my kindergarten age. Bauman: Any memories from that time at all? Dawson: The only thing I can remember is I would have to walk home by myself, and I would get lost. And I could always spot our house if I got over the right hill because there was a big washtub hanging on the side of it, on the outside of it. That's my memory. [LAUGHTER] But no, I can't remember Hanford myself at that age. Bauman: And what was your aunt's name? Dawson: It was Frank Clark and Nell Clark. And she had six boys, Benny and Walt that we called Killdie. But those fellows are still here in Richland. They still live here in Richland. The other sons are gone. One lives in Wenatchee. Steve lives in Wenatchee. So, let's see, Howard and Ray are gone, yeah. Bauman: And so was that your mother's sister? Dawson: Uh-huh. Aunt Nell was mom's sister. Bauman: And then so you said then you arrived in Priest Rapids in about May of '41. Dawson: Mom, in her book [LAUGHTER]--that's where I get these dates--in May of 1941, she went up to Priest Rapids to what we call the John van Ordstrand house. It was the number three house. And it was vacant. And she remembers vividly of walking into a house that the wind could blow dust through. It was built in 1914 or something like that, and it was built flat on the ground. There was no foundation to lift it up. And it had guy-wires to keep it straight from the wind. It was guy-wired on the upwind side because the winds blew so hard that it--I don't know what you call it--lean, tilted, not a huge amount, but enough that they had to guy it up. And it was full of sand and dirt and leaves and whatnot, so Mom got in and cleaned it up and got the--her favorite story, and she was spooky of spiders. She was really scared of spiders--of rolling newspapers up tight and lighting them on fire and making sure they weren't flaming but just cinders, and burning the black widows out from under the tub that sat on legs. You know the old style tubs, and trying to clean up the bathroom. And then once she got all that done, then us kids came up from Hanford and joined. And my first recollection of being at Priest Rapids was Daddy got us kids, us four kids, out of our old Oakland car, stood us up, and said, remember one thing. There are a lot of rattlesnakes here, so be careful where you step, where you walk, and where you put your hands. [LAUGHTER] That was my first memory of being there. Bauman: And so how long were you in that house? Dawson: We were there a couple of years, I think. And then--when we moved to Priest Rapids there were three operators--my dad, an operator named Les Brooks--and his elderly mother lived with him--and Joe Grewell. And Joe Grewell lived in what we call the first house, house number one. And it was a well-constructed house, needless to say. It was one that was built later, evidently. Okay, those were the people that worked at the powerhouse. Joe Grewell left. He I think went down to Hanford to work for something. And a man named John van Ordstrand moved into our house. And mom moved our family over to where Joe Grewell had lived, which was a much better house, because the first house we lived in was, like I say, flat on the ground. And it was very, very common to find snakes in our cupboard, bottom cupboard. Never found a rattlesnake, but bull snakes would get in there occasionally. And so she didn't like that house. Mom didn't like living in there. And so anyway, we went to Joe Grewell house when he moved. And I can't remember for sure the time frame on it, but we probably lived in the first house a couple years. Bauman: So what sort of community was Priest Rapids at the time? Can you describe what it was like living there, people who were there, that sort of thing? Dawson: Mm-hmm. Like I say, there were three operators, which meant the operators that worked at the plant, they did not rotate shifts. They were on a given shift. My dad was on graveyard. And he worked seven days a week, no days off, graveyard until the Pacific Power and Light Company came and leased the powerhouse. And I think that was something like two and a half years, which made it tricky to go to town to get anything. So it was Dad, the other two operators--like I say, it was Joe Grewell and Les Brooks. They did the same thing, except one was on days, and one was on swing, and dad was on graveyard. Then the ranch house, which it was Brown Brothers and Sisk's ranch house at that time. There was Cassie. Well, first of all there was Bob Sisk and his wife Dell--Della, and Della's daughter, Kris--no, I'm sorry, Cassie McGhee. Her son Russell McGhee and his wife, Kris. And did I leave--oh, Wynn, Wynn Brown was also Della's son. So Wynn and Russell were brothers and their sister Cassie. They were at the ranch. The depot had one fellow living there that I remember. I think it was just the one, and his name is Bill Mays. And that was it, plus then at the Indian encampment was about two miles up the river from us. And they were there only in the winter, because they went out in spring, early spring, to work at Moxee. Firstly they helped in the orchards at Vernita before they left, completely left. They went down and helped pick fruit. And then they went on into the Moxee area to work in the crops, usually the hops, I think. Bauman: So they were there in the winter months. Dawson: They came back in the fall when the crops were in. They came back to Priest Rapids, right, and spent the winter. Bauman: Did you interact a lot with the-- Dawson: Not on a social level. Johnny, Johnny Buck, the chief at that time, would come down to our house from time to time, not often but from time to time. And when he had to have letters written, he would ask my mom to write letters for him. And he would sit and talk to her, and she would write whatever it was that he needed to say, and would address the envelope for him and put the stamp on. And then I assume he would mail it at the depot. One year--I think it was only one year that Martha Johnny brought her tepee down and set up beside our house. This was when we were in the ranch house. So that the two boys, Bobby Tamanawash--later known as Robert Tamanawash--and Lester Rumtuck stayed with her so they could go to school with us. And Bobby was the same age pretty much that my brother Dean was at that time, and so they hung out a lot together. Bauman: So tell me a little bit about the school in the area. Was there a bus that you took to school? How many kids were in the school, that sort of thing. Any specific memories? Dawson: Okay. When we started school, mother tried to get a school started at Priest Rapids because there was none. And, believe it or not, it's under the Selah school district at Priest Rapids. But she found that out. So she went to the school district, and they said no, it would be too expensive to start one there. So they evidently came into some kind of an agreement with the folks that they would drive us down to Vernita School--that was an established school--daily. And then the school district would reimburse Daddy for the expense. And according to mom's book here, it was like $45 a month to do that, which was big money because Dad was working for $45 a month in warrants. That's how he was paid before the power company took over. So cash money was unheard of. It was warrants. Okay. So anyway, we went to Vernita School until it was closed down, and I think they closed it down like in 1942 or something when DuPont took over the area. They closed that school, which left us kids at Priest Rapids without a school. Mom went back to the Selah district, and they reopened the Priest Rapids school, which is the photograph I've got, and hired a teacher to come in. And there was no place for her to live, so mom boarded her until it was about that time that Brown Brothers and Sisks had to leave Priest Rapids because of the Manhattan Project. They were forced out. They resettled at Vantage. And that left the ranch house vacant. And then the power company--by this time PP&L, Pacific Power and Light Company had, if I've got my timeline right, had taken over. And they had leased the ranch house for the fourth operator to live in. But Sisks were allowed to stay for the lambing season. They got a Quonset hut and set it up out in the field by the house, and the family moved into it while the power company took over the ranch house, which seemed to me unbelievable. But it did. That's what happened, I guess. So then the teacher had the little house by the ranch house to live in, so she moved over there. Then we had our school there at Priest Rapids from that point on until '40--well, '47, '48 I think was probably the last year that school ran. But I wouldn't swear to that. It may have gone another year. That was the last year we were associated with it. Bauman: So how many students were at that school, then, in Priest Rapids? Dawson: Okay, one year, the two Indian kids--Bobby and Lester--Dean and myself, Edgar--my brother--I think that was it one year. Another year, Jake Strike had two little girls. He moved his family in. He was the fellow way up the river. And one year they were there, but the Indian boys weren't there. But basically [LAUGHTER] it was Anglin kids and the Yeager kids. The others came and went. And then the last year, mother drove the school bus up from Vernita, because we then at that point lived in Vernita--drove it up, and two or three kids from Midway came up and joined. And that was the picture of mom standing by the car. There must have been about five or six of us maybe. Bauman: And what was your teacher's name, the one who was hired to come teach? Dawson: Firstly it was Maddox, Mrs. Maddox--interesting lady. She only had one arm. But it was amazing. She could do everything. She lived independently. She was there a couple years. Mother was a little upset with her because she took school up at 10:00 and let us out at 2:00. And we were all in different grades, so mom didn't think she was covering what we needed to learn. Nice lady, but she did like to hold Sunday school more than she did regular school, which was okay. But we really needed to know some basic education. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, she was replaced by--oh goodness. Who was she replaced by? I know. It was Ms. Thompson. She came in. She was a very good teacher. She was going to be teaching 1947-48. And the only reason I remember those dates is the lightning struck our house the weekend before school was to start and burned it to the ground. That was the ranch house. So Ms. Thompson was going to live in the little house beside the little—we always called it the teacher's house. So when our house burned, obviously we had to find a place to live. So PP&L at that point found us a place down in Vernita, the closest one to Priest Rapids, which was the Knobb brothers' home. It was vacant because of Manhattan Project. Those guys were all sent out, left. They had to leave. So we moved there for that winter and spring. We were there when the '48 flood hit. And mother was still driving us up to Priest Rapids to school and to take Daddy to work. Dad was still at the powerhouse. So the flood caused some problems in the spring because it covered the road. So there were times that the speeder from the railroad station would come down and pick us kids up and take us up so we could go to school. The older children--my brother and sister, who were eighth grade and older—they drove down. Daddy taught my brother how to drive. I don't know how old he was, eighth grader I guess or something like that. And he would drive down, and they would go to Sunnyside. Although my sister, who when she was in the eighth grade, they took the eighth grade kids out of the Vernita School because the classroom was too much for the teacher. So the eighth grade kids went into Hanford. Bauman: Oh, wow. Dawson: And my sister was there when the bulldozers came in to start breaking up for Manhattan. Bauman: She was at the school in Hanford? Dawson: Yeah. She went to eighth grade there. Then after that, the kids came back home. And Edgar never went there, I don't believe. Edgar was still at home. And then they would go down to Midway, and Irvy Wright would drive a little bus into Sunnyside, all the kids into Sunnyside every day and bring them home again. And then my sister started living in Sunnyside with my aunt. And she was kind of the older one, and while she was in high school she roomed with my aunt and also a family named Beth and Claude Jones in Midway. She stayed there a year. But that was how we got her education. Bauman: I want to go back and ask you a little about when your house burned. You said there was a lightning strike. Were you home at the time? Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: That must have been a fairly scary situation. Dawson: Well, we had just--Dean and I, my brother younger than me by a year--we had just gotten home from town, actually, shopping. And we had ridden in with Irvy Wright and come home. And I guess mother had picked us up, or somehow we'd gotten up to Priest Rapids. I don't remember exactly how. But we were trying on our school clothes, and the storm had come in. It was a humdinger. It was probably the hardest lightning storm I'd ever seen. And most of the storms would come down the valley, hit us a little bit, travel on down. This one didn't. It came in and just hung there. And we heard--Daddy was sleeping. He was on graveyard, because he was on rotating shift by this time. But we heard this big heavy bang, and he jumped up, got on his clothes, and went to the powerhouse. He thought the powerhouse had been struck. And mom, she a reassured us kids, don't worry. We've got lightning rods on the house. It can't hurt us. It won't hurt us. And my brother was actually mopping the kitchen floor for her right in the back of the house. It was a big house. And it struck right over the top of him. And he had just gone out the back door with the mop pail in his hand. And mom claims she never found the pail, but I don't know that. [LAUGHTER] That's probably a mom story. But anyway, some people--the Bells, Leo and Effie Bell, one of the operators by this time, they were coming up on the grade road, the road that leads up along the mountain to Priest Rapids. And they saw it hit our house. They saw the bolt hit the house. It hit the top of a poplar tree in the front of the house and bounced and hit the cliffs behind Priest Rapids. There's basalt cliffs back there. At least this is what Effie told us. And they realized the house had been hit, so they really drove as hard as they could. And you have to remember these were all rocky, rutty, unpaved, well-used, beat up roads. So they drove as hard as they could. They ran up, parked, ran up to our front step yelling, your house is on fire. And when the lightning bolt evidently hit the back of the house right over the kitchen and went right down the ridge pole of the house and hit the tree, it ignited our house. There was no way to fight it. The water pressure wouldn't reach. We didn't have big fire extinguishers at the house, plus we had no insurance. But anyway, someone ran and got Dad from the powerhouse and said, it's your house on fire. It isn't the powerhouse. So Daddy came home, and by this time, the neighbors were all there helping. They just couldn't get the fire out. So we all just got busy and carried everything out we could. Mom put the two little kids--Jeannetta and Butch--in the car, drove the car out in the field with the kids in the car so nothing would happen to them, and came back. Bauman: That'd be very hard, yeah. And so then you moved to the house at Vernita. Dawson: Yeah, the Knobb brothers' house, yeah. Bauman: So obviously this is a very small community. Dawson: Very small. Bauman: Very small, so where did you do your shopping? Did you--for either groceries or for clothing or whatever, where did you go to? Well, for clothing, it was Montgomery Ward catalog or Sears catalog. We could order in. When we were first there in '41, a man named Reierson in White Bluffs, he had a store that sold food and dry goods of some sort. I don't remember the store at all. But he would send--see, we got our mail that way too, from Kennewick. And the mail carrier would come up every, I think three times a week. And mom could write a grocery list out, and he would drop it off at Reierson's on the return trip. And we all did that, all the people. And Reierson would take warrants. He would cash a warrant for us. And then next day, the next time he brought the mail up, he'd bring those groceries or whatever mom had written on the list. And I said, gee, mom, how did you--I don't ever remember not having some kind of meat on the table. We never had fresh vegetables to speak of, but how did you do that? You didn't have a refrigerator. And she says, as soon as the meat got there, she cooked it. She cooked it all. And we had lots of beans, and we had lots of those kinds of things. But never missed a meal. Okay, then later, also when Daddy was working seven days a week with no days off, he would get off work at 8:00 in the morning, and Mom would get up really early in the morning and take him down stuff so he could shave and get cleaned up and a change of clothes. And she'd cook his breakfast. She always cooked his breakfast and took it down or whatever. Then she'd get us kids up, get us all fed, get us all cleaned up, dressed, in the car. Daddy'd come up. He'd get there about 10 minutes after 8:00, get in the car. We'd drive to Sunnyside usually, because it was closest. And occasionally they would go into Hanford, I guess. But we'd time it so he could get home and catch a couple hours sleep, because he went to work at midnight again. So that was how they had to work it. Because the other operators, they couldn't fill in for him because if they took a graveyard, they would have had to--you know. So that's how we did it. So a lot of work on Mom’s part and lot of work on Dad's part. Bauman: Sure, right. Were there any--you said this is a very small community. Were there community events that you remember, celebrations of any kind? Dawson: One or two times we had, I remember once it was on a 4th of July, and I think what got us all together--there was a grass fire broke out. [LAUGHTER] And of course, like I say, if there was a problem, everybody came to help. And it ended up that after the fire was out, Mom--I think Dad killed a couple of chickens and Mom fried them, and Bill Mays brought some ice from the depot. They had an ice place, ice thing where you could keep it in sawdust. And they made ice cream. That was one of the gatherings I do remember. But Vernita School would have programs, and all of the farmers who still lived there, Vernita, would come to those programs. Those were important gatherings. They’d put on plays. The teacher would have us kids learn little parts, and we'd put on plays and so on. Bauman: What about churches? Were there churches in the area? Dawson: No. The church, one of the teachers at Vernita--what was her name? Fisk. I don't know what her name was, but she married Frank Fisk while she lived there, so we remember her as Mrs. Fisk. She would hold a Sunday school class. She was going to hold it on Sunday, but then everyone decided that gas was too expensive, so she would hold it on I think it was Friday after school, because people came to get their kids anyway, so they'd have it then so they didn't have to drive extra time. And our teacher at Priest Rapids, Mrs. Maddox, she wanted very much to hold church. However, Mom didn't agree with how she was doing it. [LAUGHTER] That took care of that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I want to ask you also then, how did you get news? Did you have a radio? Was there a newspaper that you got to learn about things that were happening? Dawson: We got a newspaper. It came down on Sagebrush Annie with our mail. Firstly, the mail, if I remember right, the mail came through Kennewick to start with. It was called star route Priest Rapids, I guess. Anyway, then, when that no longer could happen--I assume it was Manhattan that stopped that--it came down through Beverly on the little Sagebrush Annie train. And we would get a newspaper that way. We had a radio, but the static was so bad it was rather difficult to listen to the radio. But we did it anyway. But that was that, and there was a telephone line--they called it the high line--that you could call from the powerhouse out. But our telephones in our houses were the cranky kind, and they only went to the powerhouse. Bauman: Okay, so you couldn't call someone? You could only call the powerhouse. Dawson: Yeah. I don't think we had the ability to telephone away from Priest Rapids from the houses. And I don't think they ever did, even after the Pacific Power and Light Company took over. I don't think they changed the telephone system. Bauman: Do you remember any particular radio shows that you liked listening to? Dawson: Yeah, Fibber McGee and Molly, Jack Benny, and then us kids would listen to the Inner Sanctum. And I think one was called Wanted Dead or Alive. These were all mystery stories. And my brother Dean, who, like I said, was a year younger than me, we had vivid imaginations, I guess, because we knew that one of those ten most wanted was out of Priest Rapids for sure. And if we didn't really pay attention, [LAUGHTER] we were in danger. Bauman: You were in trouble, yeah. Dawson: Yeah. So those were the things we--oh, I think the Lone Ranger maybe. Yeah, those were the-- Bauman: So that provided you some entertainment, the radio. Dawson: Yeah. Bauman: Any other things that you did for fun, for entertainment? Dawson: We did a lot of climbing around the mountains, on the mountains. My sister, JoAnn, who was the oldest and the most--she had a good imagination for things to do. We would climb up in the canyons behind the settlement. And we found one thing. We found a hole in a cliff. Those cliffs were uplifts, I think you call them, like this. And you could climb in. There were shale slides, [INAUDIBLE] slides, down between. And one of them had a hole through it at the base. So we decided that it needed a name. So we took some paint up there, and we wrote Wishing Tunnel 1945 on it. And I think we wrote our names. I can't remember that part for sure, but 1945, Wishing Tunnel. And just not too many years ago, I worked with Jason Buck when I worked for the cultural resources at Battelle. He says, you know--he lives at Priest Rapids. He says, you know, we often wondered who did that, who put that there. I says, well, Jason, your question is answered. The Yeager kids did. But climbing around the rocks, the mountains, hiking. If some of our cousins came out, we played touch football and work up, I think is what you call it with baseball, where you softball and there aren't enough to make two teams, so you play it that way. My brother Edgar, who was two years older than me, had a horse. One of the Gandy dancers that came in at Priest Rapids to lay the new rails for Manhattan, when the Manhattan Project came in, he bought Edgar a horse, a saddle, and a bridle. And I think he bought it from the Indians. And so my brother, he was pretty good size kid for his age, although he was 12 probably, 10 or 12. I don't know for sure how old he was. He rode that horse everywhere. And one time, for some reason, we didn't get our mail from Beverly. And this, I think to this day, I think about it, and I think, oh, Mom, why'd you do that? But anyway, she let him ride that horse to Sentinel Gap. You know where that is? Above Priest Rapids where the Beverly, the railroad tracks, the bridge goes across the river. He rode that horse up there all by himself, walked across that bridge, got the mail, walked back across that bridge. He's just a kid, gets on his horse and rides back. Well, I think to myself, riding a horse up there wasn't all that big a deal. But to walk across that bridge with the Columbia under it--And another thing, the same guy that bought the horse for him, a nice man, but he was from I think New York or someplace. He was just a laborer that came out to help lay the tracks. We got to know him a little bit. He and Edgar rode their horses down across the ferry at I assume Vernita. I'm not sure what ferry they went across, but I think it was the Vernita ferry, which was the Richmond ferry, I believe, by name, down to Ringgold Ranch. And he spent the summer there working for the Ringgold Ranch. Then in the fall, when it was school time, he rode his horse back up, came home. Now, this day and age, do you think I'd let my kid at that age do that? No. [LAUGHTER] Mom didn't know who lived at Ringgold. They weren't personal friends. But Edgar got to do a lot of stuff. And he also got to help the Indians run their horses in off the hill. They would have a roundup to brand the colts and count them or whatever you do when you run your horses in. And Edgar used to ride with them. He was not that old. And I think, wow. But Dean and I, we were the little ones. We had to make our own imaginary villains looking for us and things like that. Bauman: So you moved there in May of '41. Obviously, America got involved in World War II in December of '41. I wonder how you heard about Pearl Harbor and that sort of thing. Do you remember anything about that? Dawson: I think maybe somebody called the powerhouse. I think that's the way we found out about that. But I do remember how we found out what they were making at Hanford. Edgar, my brother, went up to the depot, got the mail, and came back. And our paper--that's where we got our paper--and he opened the paper, and he said to Mom, I know what they're doing at Hanford. They made a bomb. It was on the paper. Now, I don't know if that came out in the paper a time--if there was a time lapse from the time of dropping it till it was on the paper. But that's how we found out was when Edgar brought the paper in from the railroads. Bauman: So before that, what sort of impact did Hanford have on you? Did you know anything about what was going on? Dawson: No. The main impact, when DuPont took over, Browns and Sisks had to move their ranch. That brought in the fourth operator, which brought money to Dad and time off. That was our impact on our family. And at that point, they started taking up the railroad tracks, the rails, and reinforcing them, putting down heavy ones. Because at that point, or very soon after, Sagebrush Annie didn't come anymore. It was those huge, long trains, those heavy trains bringing the materials in to build Hanford. Prior to that, Sagebrush Annie just came down and picked up the fruit at Vernita and White Bluffs and turned around and went back. And it was a big long train with big two cars then and the caboose. And also we had to have identification. And I don't remember if all of us kids individually had to have identification, but Mom and Dad did before they could come through the checkpoint at Midway. Because Midway was then guarded by MPs, and we'd have to stop there, and they would check our identification and let us go through. And if we had company come to visit us, we had to verify who they were and what they were doing. That was the impact, yeah, one impact, yeah. Bauman: So you obviously knew something was going on because there were guards and the trains-- Dawson: Mm-hm. We had no clue. Bauman: What the guards were-- Dawson: No. Bauman: Somehow related to the war effort. Dawson: Yeah. And all of the ranchers, which were mainly fruit people, were forced out of Midway, the Midway-Vernita area. Midway, of course, it was fully constructed then, and it had a full crew of workers there to run that substation. No, we didn't. We all guessed. We were told that if we heard a siren, a warning siren, to immediately go to the railroad track, and there would be a train or someone, some vehicle coming up the railroad track to pick us up and take us to safety. So we assumed that it was some kind of poisonous gas or something like that. That was our assumption. But no, there was not a clue, not a clue. Bauman: And you had aunt and uncle and cousins in Hanford. Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: And so they were still there in '43 and had to leave at that point, is that right? Dawson: Their place was taken over, yes, and they moved to Yakima. But by then, the six boys were grown, and we were teenagers, late teens, I think. And some of them--obviously I think there were four of them ended up in the military. But no. Bauman: So you knew that people, obviously the people in those communities had had to leave and-- Dawson: Mm-hmm, yeah. The reason we didn't have to is that they needed someone to man the powerhouse. They needed those operators. So they were--Dad and the rest were allowed to stay. The Indians could come in, in and out. But they were not allowed to go down to their fishing areas down at Hanford. They were also blocked out. But they could come into Priest Rapids and spend the winter and go out. And I don't know if they had to have identification or not. I assume that they probably did as a group, maybe. I don't know. I have no idea. Bauman: And then how long did your family live in Priest Rapids? Dawson: From May of 1941 until September of '47 when the house burned down. Then, when we went to Vernita, we were there until--we were there September of '47. '48 was the flood. So we went to Yakima in '48, 1948. Bauman: And what was the reason for moving to Yakima? Was it the flood, or-- Dawson: No, it was the fact that they had transferred Dad. Dad got a job at the PP&L substation in Union Gap, I think, or maybe it was Naches. Anyway, they transferred him. By this time, my little brother and sister were approaching school age. Dean and I were in junior high. Edgar was in high school. JoAnn, of course, she was out of high school. She was working in Sunnyside High School in the office as a secretary by that time. But it was just time that we left. Yeah. Bauman: So, you were there from '41 to '48 in the area. Dawson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Bauman: I wonder if there's anything we haven't talked about in terms of things you think it's important for people to know about the area at the time, of what it was like living there, growing up there? Dawson: Well, it was isolated. It was an isolated area to live. But it was a community, a close community. The ranch house had big wheat field--or not wheat fields, alfalfa fields. See, there were one big long one and a thin one down there. And, like for example when it was hay cutting time, they had the bailer, and they'd bail the hay. And Cassie would sit on one side, the wire that poked through and someone had to grab it and stick it in, my sister JoAnn worked on one side. My brother Edgar bucked the bales. He was a real strong kid for his age. [LAUGHTER] He bucked the bales. And lambing time was, for me growing up as a little kid, I loved lambing time, because they would bring--it was a sheep ranch, by the way. And they would bring somewhere around 2,000 head of sheep, maybe 3,000. I don't know, somewhere in that vicinity. They would trail them down the river, and we could see them coming. And that was so much fun, you cannot believe it. And Bob Sisk, the senior, the eldest of them all, he was really a great old man. And he would put up with me tagging after him every hour that I wasn't in school and Mom didn't have me doing something. During lambing season, Dean and I would be up there. And we'd hang out in the lambing sheds. And a couple of the Indian fellows would come and help with the lambing. Cy Tamanawash was one of them that I remember. And it was just a lot of fun. And Bob never talked to us much. He'd just put up with us tagging after him. And he gave us a bum lamb for a pet. And we raised it. His name was Joe, and we raised it with our dog. And I think it was probably the only lamb in history--the only sheep in history that chased cars. And cars coming into Priest Rapids was pretty rare, and our dog would go out and chase the car. And the lamb would go with him. And the lamb would chase the car even as a grown sheep. And that would get the driver's attention when a sheep was chasing his car. And also what was really strange, it would go swimming in the canal with the dog. Now, sheep don't go swimming. But anyway, I think the lamb thought it was a dog. But Bob gave us that lamb, and Mother raised it behind the kitchen stove in the winter when it was cold. This little lamb was in the box, and she'd get up and feed it milk every couple hours. Mom worked real hard. But that was a fun part was when Browns had their sheep in. And then in the spring, they'd separate the youths that had twin lambs and the ones that had single lambs. And Bob always took--Bob Sisk always took the herd that had the twin lambs, because it was trickier to keep all those sheep together. And so as soon as school was out, boy, I'd be out, and I'd track him down, find out where he was. And I'm sure I sat and talked his ear off. He just occasionally would tell me a story about getting a bear attack when they had the sheep up in the mountains and stuff like that, bear stories. And I realized when I was grown that they couldn't have been true, some of them. But that was all right. I didn't know. I was a kid. And one time, one spring, he came up to the fence, called me out, and said, I got something for you. Reach in my saddlebag. So I did, and here's his old red handkerchief, all something was in it. And it was a little baby jackrabbit, a little tiny guy. His eyes weren't even open. He had found it and brought me one. So, needless to say, it was Mom that got up every couple hours and fed that little rabbit throughout the night. We got it going till it was big enough it sat on our fingers, made a little puddle, and it would drink the milk out of our hand. And we raised that rabbit until it was a great big rabbit. And then I think--I think the cat killed it. But that was Penny the rabbit. So those were things, just stories. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Any other last things that you want to-- Dawson: One thing I thought was interesting and I don't know how many people ever saw it was the balloon that was shot down at Cold Creek. We were going out to town one evening--one afternoon, late afternoon. And we came up off the Vernita hill up, and we were headed toward Yakima at the Y. And there were so many security guards you could not believe it. They were everywhere in their cars. So we slowed down, obviously, went around the corner to go to Yakima or Sunnyside, either one. And out in the field was a big dirigible balloon that was deflating. And they just waved us straight through. Just go for it. So we did. But of course this added to my brother Dean and my imagination. [LAUGHTER] We knew there was an enemy had come in on that balloon. And he was hiding up in the canyons behind our house. We knew that. We really had to be careful. No mention of that anywhere in anything, that balloon, until after the war. And it was shot down. And I'm not really absolutely certain what, but it was either a Japanese balloon--I think it was a Japanese balloon that they had shot down. But I'm sure it's somewhere in the records around here, but we did get to see that. Bauman: So you saw it. You drove past it. Dawson: Yeah. It was still inflated, but it was down. The ends of it had deflated down. But I didn't know there were that many securities in the world that were around that site. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I was going to ask you if, after the war ended, did the security change at all in terms of your parents having to show identification and that sort of thing. Did that continue still after the war, do you know? Dawson: We couldn't go into Hanford. We were stopped at about--I think that we could then go back and forth there at Midway, but I can't really remember for sure. I can't really remember for sure, but I do know that we could not go into the Hanford site. And it would be, if I remember right, it would be about where Vernita Bridge is now, where Bruggemanns’ land is. I think that was as far as we could go. Yeah. Bauman: All right, well, thank you again. I appreciate you coming in-- Dawson: Okay. [LAUGHTER Bauman: --and sharing your memories. Dawson: It was fun. I love to tell stories, as you can well tell. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01-11-42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1941-1947 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Clark, Frank and Nell Stradling, Edward Ordstrand, John Van Brooks, Les Grewell, Joe Sisk, Bob and Della McGhee, Russel and Cassie Mays, Bill Strike, Jake Bell, Leo and Effiel Tamanawash, Robert/Bobby Rumtuck, Lester Buck, Johnny Tamanawash,Cy Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Murrel Dawson Description An account of the resource An interview with Murrel Dawson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-07-6 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-24: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) DuPont https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0a5f95a067cc15c8bfd7705114ca6269.jpg 9e12f751613b211e66d587db18607e0a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F99406b7ecf1307fceba5c8061e9a614a.mp4 c229c9e2af641822b5c55f7020ad8681 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Myles Pasch Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Northwest Public Television | Pasch_Myles </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. My name's Robert Bauman. And I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Myles Pasch, today June 11th, 2013 and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities, and I'll be talking to Mr. Pasch about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So good morning, and thank you for being willing to have me talk to you today and be our first subject in this project. Appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Myles Pasch: Welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So what if start by just having you tell me how and why you ended up coming to the Tri-Cities area to work at the Hanford site. How did that come about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well I come about, my mother was working here when I got out of the Army in '45. Why, she already had a job lined up for me out here, and so come out here to take that job that they--the job actually didn't materialize, but I start working with the electrical distribution as a lineman's helper, because of the experience in the Army. I was a communications system in the Army, and so I started out in the line distribution as a ground man for the line gang, and about six months later why the Corps of Engineers turned the telephone system over to DuPont and with the telephone experience I had, they--I mean if you put me in the telephone system and I worked in there then until I--until my retirement. And various jobs from cable splicer helper, to cable splicer, to lineman and supervisor of the installation and maintenance crews, and then supervisor's office. Finally end up in engineering section by the time I retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So you worked in a lot of different places, but mostly on electrical and phone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Just about all of it on phones. Phones, phones, and phone lines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And what sort of job did your mother have when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: She was in the T Plant, 221-T Plant cleaning instruments and that from the separations group when they--vessels that they had to use for transferring materials and so forth and she was cleanup on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Oh, okay. And when had she begun work here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: She began work there when they went into production. She worked at Hanford during construction in the mess hall, and then she transferred to DuPont and started working soon as--right after they went into production instead of construction. My dad also worked there. Both in construction and in--and he went into patrol, the Hanford patrol, when they went into production. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And do you know how your parents ended up coming here for work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I really don't. I was in the Army at the time that they did come out here, and so I'm not sure how--other than I know they were living in northern Wisconsin. There wasn't much going on there, and so I know that they tried to find something in the war industry to work on, so they applied for and came out here to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And did both of your parents continue working at Hanford after the war also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes. Fact is, I think my dad retired in '52. My mother retired when DuPont phased out and they went to General Electric. She phased out with DuPont, but Dad stayed in until 1951, actually, when he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Right. So you said you initially worked for the Army Corps of Engineers and then DuPont? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: No. I worked for DuPont when I hired on in July of '45, but the Corps of Engineers was running the telephone systems at that time rather than DuPont, and they turned the telephone systems over to DuPont in January of '46, and at that time I transferred right over to the telephone section and worked there until retirement. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. So what might a typical work day have been for you back in the late 1940s early 1950s? What sorts of things might you have done in a typical workday? Where might you have gone on the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, we had to go wherever they needed telephone service, and it was installation of the wiring, telephones, and maintenance of them. And so wherever they needed telephones, we went. I worked in the outer areas all the time, very little in the 300 Area. Most of my work was in the two East-West, and the 100 Areas, wherever they needed a telephone repaired or put in, why, there's where we worked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: How large of a crew or group did you work with usually, would be out there doing telephone repairs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Usually there was about eight or ten men on the telephone installation and repair group, and there was anywhere from one to four cable splicer crews going splicing cable. Especially when they really start opening up in the late '40s early '50s, and they start increasing the size and that of the telephone systems. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So I imagine over the 37 years--is that how long? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes, 37. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Imagine over the course of those 37 years the telephone systems changed quite a bit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes, we started out with--when the Corps of Engineers had it, they started out with common battery switchboards with operators on them in each area, and each area had a 100 or 200 line switchboard, whatever they needed. And when they turned it over to DuPont, though, they'd already had installed a automatic switching station. So right after they turned it over to DuPont, why it switched over to automatic switching stations and the operators were taken off the project. And then it wasn't many years later they had to increase the size of that. They went from a Strowger switching system to a North Electric all relay switching system. And just in the--well not what, in the early '80s or late '70s, why, they switched over to a computer-controlled switching system, which is what they are still using out there now is a computer-controlled. But they went from say 100 lines in each area to several thousand lines and now, and the increase in people and buildings that were put in during that time. During that period of time. When I first started there, there was only three reactors and the East-West Area each had a separations building, but the only one that was actually in use was the 221-T Plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So were some of those buildings more challenging to work with install or fix phone lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yeah, some of them we had to get special permits, special clothing, monitor buttons, and pencils, and badges to go into them. Probably only allowed 30 minutes in some spots. They were restricted to how long you could work in there and so forth, because of the radiation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. So did you have a radiation monitor or some sort when you did that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We had a radiation monitor. Our badge was a radiation monitor. Whenever we went into an area, why, we got a couple of pencils that you put in your pocket that rated different types of radiation. Some buildings they had to have even another different pencil in your pocket in order to work there. Because there was different types, different radiations. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And, so you mentioned you worked in T-Plant? In there as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, yes, I worked--fact is that was one of our most challenging ones. We went there to work, and you had to drive dressed in double protective coveralls and boots, and gloves, and hoods, mask, and then when you went out, you had to strip all that and you couldn't drag your tools out with you. They stayed, either stayed or got thrown away. So in that one you were very limited on how long you could work in the canyon. That was in the canyon itself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Yeah. Now for the site itself, when you first started working at Hanford site, given high security and secrecy, did you have to get a special security clearance, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I had a Q clearance all while I worked there. I had a Q clearance, which allowed you into everything except top secret buildings. The only thing about Hanford there is a need to know basis. You never learned anything about anything else that was going on except if you were doing it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: When you first started, were you--how did you get to Hanford? Were you able to drive your own vehicle or did you have to take the bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We took a bus out. You could drive your own vehicle off the area, park it outside the fence and that, but most people rode the bus out. They had bus transportation to all areas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And did that continue for most of the time that you worked at Hanford, or did that start to change? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That continued. Most of the time I worked at Hanford, except the last few years and I was manager or supervisor of the business office. I was working in the 700 Area in the Federal Building. Was then based in there. So at that time I no longer had to ride buses out. But then the last three four years I worked, I was back out in the areas again, but of course I was driving company car out for instructing people on the new telephone systems. They'd set up meetings and I'd go out and instruct them on how it worked and what they could--what they could use of the communication systems. There was a lot of stuff they weren't allowed to use by DOE because it was expensive and unnecessary. So some of the things that they could have had and used, why, they weren't available to the plant operations. Some of the top management had them, but a lot of the systems was not available to the regular—most of the divisions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Now because of the security at Hanford, and secrecy, were there any sort of special phone--concerns about communication, using telephones. Was there any special security or anything like that, related to telephones? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: They always stressed security. That, talk and sink your ship, and so forth and that, to keep people from talking, and of course they had monitoring systems that they--the FBI had one set up in one of the buildings there where they could access any phone in the plant if they had the need to monitor to see if anything was going on that shouldn't be going on. And they then recorded them on little old spools of wax. Little drums of wax recordings that they used to use way back when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Really? [LAUGHTER] Wow, that's interesting. Did that impact your work at all, the connections at all, or how you did the telephone lines at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: It just gave us more work. I mean we had to--and that was top secret, we were not allowed to discuss that with anyone that this was set up was there, available to the government. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I’m going to shift a little bit now and talk a little bit about the area, the Tri-Cities area. When you first arrived where did you live? And what were your first impressions of Richland or the area here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well it was--lived in a--with my folks. They'd rented a three bedroom prefab, because they wanted us to come and live with them while I was there. So we lived in that prefab for the first six months, then we moved into one of the B houses down the south end of town. And it was pretty desolate, lot of wind, no trees. [LAUGHTER] And I thought every time the wind blew, why, they'd lose about half their—half their employees would terminate—termination winds they used to call them. [LAUGHTER] And of course the--none of the cities were any too large at that time, and they just grown a lot since. But Richland was all government owned, all the homes and everything was government owned until about '53 they sold the--about '52 or '53 they started selling the houses to the resident who was in the house. And I moved out just before that. We'd moved out and went to Kennewick, so we didn't buy one of the--one of the plant houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Now had you--did you know anything about the area before you came here? Had your parents told you anything really about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Not a thing. Just come for the job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So what was the community like in those early years in the late ‘40s early ‘50s? Because I would assume most people had come from all over the United States to work. What was that like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: They come all from all over from the United States and they--everything in town was government owned. So they had a big recreation building. They had two theaters and they had the recreation building where they would contract some major musicians to come in and play, oh, probably once a month they'd come in and play for a dance there for the people. About the only other--well, we had the bowling alley and one tavern in town. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, the bowling alley and the tavern and two theaters. So a lot of the recreation were just people parading up and down the streets on a Sunday when they weren't working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So there were theaters to go to. Were there any parades or those sorts of events going on in the summer at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Every year they had parades that the government sponsored. Either parades or art in the park and such as that, that they got started. So there was quite a bit going on, and like I say, every so often they'd get a big band, one of the big bands in to play for the dances. And each department would manage to make a couple of parties every year to keep their people happy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: You mentioned the termination winds and often a lot of people came and went. What made you stay and your family stay there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, I guess I liked the job. [LAUGHTER] It was just what I had always had been doing was telephone work. So I liked the job, and the pay wasn't too bad. And we had all—a lot of free time. I mean on the weekends and that, and it wasn't too far to go out to find recreation in the areas. Fishing or boating or just sightseeing. So we enjoyed—and we enjoyed the climate and that here compared to in some other areas we lived in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Not quite as cold as Wisconsin, I guess.. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes. That's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I wonder if there were any major events or things that happened while you were working at Hanford that stand out in your memory. I know President Kennedy was here in 1963, right, to sort of open the N Reactor. I wonder if you remember anything about that or are there any other events that really stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That was one time that they even let school out so that school kids could go out there. And our son was in the band, so he was out there playing, and the whole family was out at the N Reactor when President Kennedy was there. Were able to spend the afternoon out there. Fact is, they even got a chance then to take them by the building I was based in at the time, which is out the old BY telephone building. Got to take the family by there, and so we had a family picnic there at the BY building on the way home from the outing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: That's probably the first time family members had a chance to be out-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That's the first time they were allowed out there at all. I mean if you didn't have a badge you didn't go out there, unless you got special badge to go out into the area. But they had the checkpoints at 300 are and out at--on the highway coming in from the Yakima area--the highway where that highway 24's junctions with it. They had a gate out there, and one out by the--before you got to 300 Area and you had to have a badge to go through there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. And were you able to drive your cars out for that event? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: You could, but they were inspected. Trunks inside and outside as you went through, and--but you could drive your car out. But most people did use the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I wonder if--what would you like future generations to know about Hanford? What it was like to work there. What it was like living in the Tri-Cities, especially in the 1940s and 1950s and those years in early Cold War years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, I don't know. [LAUGHTER] That's a--other than the fact, that it was one of the main things that stopped the World War very soon. I mean they saved--people worry about them having killed a lot of people, but they saved a lot lives. And if you look at it in the long run, well, they saved one amount of lives with the production at the Hanford plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: It seems like your work experience in 37 years was generally very good. You liked your job, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Most of the time it was good, yes. It was--there was ups and downs, but it was as a rule it was pretty good. It was a good job and it was a sure job. I mean as long as you did your work and kept your nose clean, why, you had a job for as long as you wanted to stay. I could've stayed on beyond retirement age if I wanted to, but I was ready to go traveling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And how about the Tri-Cities as a place to live? You mentioned you moved to Kennewick in the early 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We moved to Kennewick in 1952, and lived there until 2011. I moved back into Richland, about four or five blocks away from where we first started out in Richland. [LAUGHTER] So I liked it in Kennewick, but it's crowded. We found a real nice location out in Richland that we liked and I built a home there, and we--I moved out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Well that's really interesting about your work and seeing the different changes right, with the telephone system and changes at Hanford. So you started with DuPont. What other contractors did you work for over the years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, DuPont, and General Electric, and ARCO, and Westinghouse, and main one, Rockwell. Fact is, I've spent a lot of time—Rockwell was one of the last ones that I just transferred over to Westinghouse as Rockwell phased out just about the time they were phasing out and combining a lot of the companies. Rockwell went out and I've worked with--or with Westinghouse for just a short time, then just to carry over until they got it--got all their programs going again right. There's a lot of change every five years at least, why, they were changing contractors, and was always a big change. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Was there a contract you worked for that you really enjoyed working for maybe more than some of the others? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, no. They were all pretty good. I mean they were--had a job to do, and I was working in the same telephone department all the time. We just transferred under different management, and seems like all of those contractors were nice to work for. I mean, they were all—seemed just one as good as the other. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Or any memories that you have of either working at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that you think is important to share that I haven't asked you about yet, or haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Not off hand. I can't think of anything. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. Well, I really appreciate you coming and sharing your memories and your experiences working at the Hanford site and being a part, especially of those early years at Hanford. I really appreciate it, and thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Other than being a little nervous, why, I enjoyed it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Man two: The only thing I can think of—well you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Woman one: Last week my daughter came here when we came for the chancellor thing. And she's 15, and they had studied it somewhat in school, but she had some really strange thoughts, and not really positive thoughts about things that had happened here. And I was wondering if maybe you, since you lived through it, if you could make that—the reality of life at that time more real to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I don't know, it just--there was a lot of restrictions and that, that you had to consider, going through that. And the security involved with it was very strict, but I can see where it was very necessary. Any of that restrictions and the production that they made, like I say, saved a lot of lives overall, if you'd have continued with the war as it was going. Why, it brought a stop to it in a hurry. And I think we should be thankful that it did that rather than carry on for invasion of Japan and whatever would have happened after that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Well again, thank you very much. I really appreciate you being willing to be the first person to be interviewed as part of this. You get all the little nuances of everything so I really appreciate Mr. Pasch. Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: You're welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Man one: Okay. Stop the tape. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 249 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100 Area 221-T Plant 700 Area N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Myles Pasch Description An account of the resource An interview with Myles Pasch conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/11/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 221-T Plant 300 Area 700 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd309633d2b2e913ecba13bcd1e5e7abf.docx 386db21301d4c7feee86f43e67c34188 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F18b2ebcb86c3cc7b88b710c4ce32e2d1.docx fc2068d66a2bbfee22d4a58978703e04 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c7ef3041ca31eb999b89815db29df5b.mp4 9e3bb692d058a2136c73fbfc9d100517 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latino/a Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An ongoing oral history project focusing on the history of the Latine/Latino community of the Tri-Cities, Washington area. Previously known as the WSU Tri-Cities Latinx Oral History Project headed by History faculty Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin. Hanford History Project made the decision in 2024 to use Latino/a instead of Latinx as the former more reflects the grammar and practical use and identification of Spanish speakers. We know that one term will not encompass all those identities. For example, Latine, a gender neutral pronoun and product of the queer Spanish community, was considered for use but we use Latino/a to reflect the prevalence of gendered pronouns in the Spanish language. However, we would like to acknowledge that the discourse around which term to use is complex and evolving. Every person has the right to use the term that captures who they are and that feels the most welcoming to them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Language A language of the resource English; Spanish Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruben Peralta Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 00;00;00;00 - 00;00;19;23 Robert Bauman First of all, my name is Robert Bauman. I'm conducting this oral history interview with Nathaly Mendoza on July 20th of 2023. We're doing this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Natalie, again, for administrative purposes, could you please say and spell your full name, please? 00;00;19;24 - 00;00;37;14 Nathaly Posada Yeah, of course. Do I look over there laughter]? My name is Natalie. Spelled N-A-T-H-A-L-Y. last name Mendoza-Posada, M-E-N-D-O-Z-A. The other last name, P-O-S-A-D-A. 00;00;37;16 - 00;00;38;11 Robert Bauman Is there a hyphen or? 00;00;38;15 - 00;00;38;26 Nathaly Posada No. 00;00;39;03 - 00;00;59;05 Robert Bauman Okay. Thank you. Let's start our chat here by... If you could talk to us about your family and essentially your family's migration story, when and why you came to the tri cities, that sort of background? 00;00;59;06 - 00;01;24;15 Nathaly Posada Yeah. Of course. It first started with my grandma. I believe that this was before I was born. She moved here. She had six kids. As a single mother, she had to move to the United States, while her parents took care of her kids. Also, there were older kids as well. They took care of each other. She moved to the Tri-Cities first. She first moved to Florida, then she moved to Chicago, and then she moved to Washington. Why? How? Probably work related. A few years later, when I was about 9 or 10, my mom and I moved to the United States here to Pasco, because my grandma was already there. I was 9 or 10. We moved as well, because the financial situation in Mexico was continuously getting worse. A way for my mom to continue to provide for her, for myself, but also her two older children that were in Mexico was to make the leap and move here. 00;02;24;11 - 00;02;41;26 Robert Bauman Okay. Coming to the Tri-Cities was in part because of your grandmother. Nathaly Posada Yes. Robert Bauman Okay. When you left Mexico, were you able to come straight here? Did you have to stop anywhere else on the way, or did you stop anywhere else on the way? 00;02;41;29 - 00;02;59;07 Nathaly Posada As far as the crossing, we stopped at... I want to say in Arizona, and I was there for a little bit, probably a week as I waited for my mom. Then, we just came over here. Straight over here. 00;02;59;09 - 00;03;02;11 Robert Bauman What part of Mexico was your family from? 00;03;02;13 - 00;03;26;04 Nathaly Posada Kind of all over. My grandma was from Hidalgo, Guerrero. My mom also lived there for a long time, but I was born in Silao, Guanajuato, when my mom moved. And then from there, we kind of went over here. 00;03;26;07 - 00;03;28;18 Robert Bauman And you mentioned you had two younger siblings? 00;03;28;21 - 00;03;29;22 Nathaly Posada Older. 00;03;29;27 - 00;03;33;07 Robert Bauman Did they come here as well at some point? 00;03;33;09 - 00;03;56;06 Nathaly Posada No. They were already in their university years. They decided to stay and continue going to school over there. Both of them had their careers over there, so they never came back. They come to visit, but they stayed over there. 00;03;56;09 - 00;04;03;24 Robert Bauman What sort of work or labor did your grandmother, and then your mother find, when they came here to the Tri-Cities? 00;04;03;25 - 00;04;29;26 Nathaly Posada It's all field work. So, my grandma ended up doing all kinds of field work, especially because she migrated from Florida. She did orange fields over there. I want to say that in Chicago, she worked in factories, and when she came here, it was apple, cherry, basically all of the orchards in the Tri-Cities has to offer. 00;04;29;29 - 00;04;31;01 Robert Bauman And your mom then similar? 00;04;31;07 - 00;04;33;18 Nathaly Posada Yes. Yeah. 00;04;33;21 - 00;04;51;16 Robert Bauman You were nine when you came here. As a nine-year-old, what was that transition like? Did you know English? How was transitioning to school here? Could you talk about that? 00;04;51;17 - 00;05;17;09 Nathaly Posada It was hard. I didn't know any English from Mexico to then. So luckily, I was able to find teachers that were bilingual. I ended up going to Longfellow Elementary School. I don't know if there were any ELA classes at that time, but I wasn't put in an ELA class. It's just straight English, but my English teacher was bilingual, and I didn't have any issues with math. That transition was hard, because of the language barrier, but I was able to get a hang of it and maybe understand within a year and communicate a little bit after a year. 00;05;40;28 - 00;05;46;16 Robert Bauman What sort of housing were you able to find, when you first came here? 00;05;46;20 - 00;05;52;09 Nathaly Posada Well, we lived with my grandma. At that time, she already had her house, so we just stayed with her. 00;05;52;17 - 00;06;15;18 Robert Bauman Okay. Right. After you were able to sort of make that transition, what was growing up in Pasco and the Tri-Cities like for you? What sorts of memories or things about the Hispanic community here in the area? 00;06;15;25 - 00;06;46;27 Nathaly Posada I think that now that I look back and communicate with my peers who are also part of the community are shared... Not only Hispanic community, but also other immigrant communities, is that our parents were always working in order to make sure that we could survive. A lot of it was sort of—not taking care of ourselves—but definitely finding emotional support within our friends or all of their little friends as other ten-year-olds. But, it was nice. I did have cousins here as well that were older. Overall, it was just about finding my way, finding myself here in a sense, and trying to assimilate and adapt into a culture and a new country. 00;07;08;29 - 00;07;23;13 Robert Bauman Sure. What led you to come to WSU Tri-Cities? Was getting higher education and college degree something that was always really important to you and your family? 00;07;23;16 - 00;07;46;13 Nathaly Posada Well, both of my siblings ended up going to college and higher education. That was always instilled in me. Not as in a, “You need to do this...” But like, “This is the way that your siblings have paved the way.” Obviously, my mom not having a college degree was always a factor. As far as making sure that she gave us the opportunities for us to be able to do that for ourselves. Going to WSU Tri Cities was because I wanted to stay close to my mom. I guess the overall history is that we've always been together, and so, I didn't want college not to be a part of that. It was nice to come to WSU Tri-Cities. I made a lot of great memories here. I was involved in a lot of leadership positions within the university, and overall, it was a nice steppingstone and a way of growing into my future endeavors. 00;08;28;04 - 00;08;38;06 Robert Bauman Yeah. So, talk about that. What led you to getting involved in student government and other groups and activities on campus? 00;08;38;07 - 00;09;01;29 Nathaly Posada Well, it was during Covid that I was getting involved. Overall, I was very timid. I was definitely stuck in my comfort zone for my freshman and sophomore year here. I also did Running Start here. It was that transition as well. During Covid, it was like, “What do I have to lose?” That was definitely the question that I asked myself. I was like, “Why not?” It led me to get connected into student government, but also other clubs and organizations. It was worthwhile to take that initiative and take that leap. 00;09;25;03 - 00;09;47;25 Robert Bauman Yeah. So, as you mentioned, a lot of that was during Covid. I wonder if you could talk about that a little more. Like what were some of the challenges of being involved in student government during Covid in terms of communicating with students and having events and that sort of thing? 00;09;48;21 - 00;10;16;09 Nathaly Posada I think that the hardest part... I was also part of the MOSAIC Center for Student Inclusion during that year. The biggest struggle was like, “How do we make WSU Tri-Cities feel like a community without being together?” That was the biggest struggle. We would send out emails through the MOSAIC Center. We would host events and just hope that somebody would show up. It's definitely easier to do school at home, but you kind of lose the sense of the campus and the college experience because you're at home all the time. In comparison to being on campus, like our students would be waiting in between classes. They would see an event. They would see food. They would go into the room. That wasn't a possibility during Covid. That was the biggest issue. I think not only for us, but for all of the other departments here at Tri Cities and for, you know, other colleges around the nation. I am definitely glad that our student population that showed up did show up, because it was just able to launch when we did come back in person. Our students knew that these resources were available to them. 00;11;22;04 - 00;11;58;09 Robert Bauman Yeah. One of the things that some of our students had issue with was internet accessibility, right? When we were completely online from March of 2020 through spring of 21. What other issues do you remember, when you're involved in student government, that you had to address or dealt with or tried to work on? 00;11;58;11 - 00;12;31;03 Nathaly Posada Yeah. During that year, I remember that one of the biggest issues were also not only internet but also computer accessibility. I had many computer issues within my own experience. That was something that student government... That year the president was Robin and Stephanie. They developed the program for students to be able to rent out computers if they needed them. That was definitely another issue that I saw. I think that I had, at the time, a pretty okay computer system, but it failed me many times. But, I can imagine what other students with either no internet access or no computer access were going through in an all-virtual learning experience. 00;12;56;14 - 00;13;02;17 Robert Bauman Right. And then of course, the following year, coming back, there were new challenges. Everyone having to wear masks and also some students that were hesitant to come back. Some courses were completely virtual and some were hybrid and some were... I wonder if there are any issues related to that, things you remember as being involved with the student government that you were trying to work with there... 00;13;29;20 - 00;14;03;15 Nathaly Posada Yeah. The biggest issue was... During Covid, the whole university did a restart, because we hadn't been here for a long time. We kind of didn't know how to how things operated or what was the norm. For us, it was bringing life to campus again, making it feel like a campus again, when a lot of our students, especially our freshman that had spent a year virtual already, like, what are they going to experience? What are they going to remember within their first year? Not only back on campus, but also probably their freshman year of university. That was the biggest hurdle for me personally. It was just adapting to the continuous new learning methods that I needed from being totally virtual to trying to be better at time management to being in a classroom where I feel like I hadn't done that in a long time. The hybrids that were always just weird. Definitely a planner. The planner was a lifesaver. 00;14;49;05 - 00;14;52;26 Robert Bauman Well, yeah. Between your classes and then all your responsibilities, student leadership. Yeah. I'm sure having everything planned out was very helpful. So, you talked about how you were a little timid. I am wondering what your involvement in student leadership gave you going forward. What did you learned from that and what have you taken away from that? 00;15;18;12 - 00;15;45;13 Nathaly Posada I mean, it definitely taught me that it's okay to talk to everybody. It will bring me new experiences. The more that I network, the more doors I open for myself. I feel like that's something that's not necessarily talked about for other students within our community. We're not taught to network. We're not taught to do all of these things. And so, definitely student government enabled me to be able to branch out more, be able to tell my story. My mentor, during my year, Ian, always pushed that on us. As far as me and Isaac, my vice president, it was continue to network, continue to talk to various donors, even though it was a little uncomfortable to be in these spaces, because they were new. Moving forward, what I learned was to just get out there and talk to other people. I probably don't give myself enough credit in that I also have a lot of people to support me and to ask for help. That's the biggest thing, asking for help with something that I took on. 00;16;51;13 - 00;17;16;20 Robert Bauman Yeah, it's a good lesson to learn. Yeah. So, you talked about talking to donors... What other sort of responsibilities? When I think of ASB president, I always think of working with students and things on campus and you talk about some of the challenges of that. What other responsibilities came along with that position that I probably wouldn’t think of or others either? 00;17;20;02 - 00;17;56;15 Nathaly Posada Of course. The Student Body President at WSU Tri-Cities is supposed to be the liaison for administration and students. It was working with a lot of administration, having monthly meetings, weekly meetings, to talk about the challenges that our students were facing. Sometimes the biggest hurdles of that was that our students want and demand things very quickly and rightfully so, because they're only here for 4 to 5 years, if not shorter. Making changes takes money and takes time. Sometimes in higher education, the clock moves slower than how we want students to... How we want students to sort of see the change. That was part of my responsibilities. I also had the opportunity to work with Anna Plemons and Chancellor Haynes. I was able to share my story with donors at the WSU Foundations, talking with President Kirk. So, a lot of administration and a lot of audiences that I wasn't used to talking to or sharing my experience with, but also learning the ins and outs of that. And sometimes, we did have unwanted reactions. And so, seeing how Chancellor Haynes would like deal with that was also helpful for me to see. 00;19;07;23 - 00;19;22;19 Robert Bauman Some might have a sort of negative reaction in response to that... Did any of those audiences you talked... Were you involved at all in talking with prospective students, groups that either on campus or out in the community? 00;19;22;26 - 00;19;49;21 Nathaly Posada Yes. definitely prospective students. Every tour, ASBWSU were here for our outreach events. We would talk to them. We talked a lot to alumni as well, sort of the ones that we knew and that would constantly visit our campus. 00;19;49;24 - 00;19;58;08 Robert Bauman In those talks, would you share your story, your family's story, and also then talk about the campus? 00;19;58;09 - 00;20;31;03 Nathaly Posada Yeah. So it was like, “This is why I decided to go to the Tri-Cities. It was because of my family, because I was able to commute here and still live at home while having great resources to a great education.” That was definitely one of them. The other things that the campus had to offer to entice other students or other prospective students to attend here. Robert Bauman I wonder how all these experiences, your family experiences, your educational experiences... Now, as you're going to be heading off for graduate school, another job in a new place, Seattle... What do you think those experiences have... How have they helped prepare you for the future? Nathaly Posada Yeah. I mean, they have prepared me so much. If I wasn't part of student government, I don't think that I would have... I would be able to say that. I am definitely really comfortable with stepping into new places, because of what I've done basically my whole life. Adapting and changing, adapting with everything that's changing around me is something that's very natural and comes really natural to me. Being student body president, going into graduate school and other opportunities that I have, definitely enables me to use everything that I learned here. I did supervise other students, so I do have that experience. I was able to work with stakeholders and donors and talk to them. That is also something that I take on with me in my professional career. Definitely, student government is a must for students that are wanting to get involved, in my opinion. 00;22;11;11 - 00;22;35;26 Robert Bauman Is there anything that, either about your family's experience or your personal educational experience, or growing up in Pasco, in the community, that we haven't asked you about or we haven't talked about that you think would be helpful or important to share? 00;22;35;29 - 00;22;41;19 Nathaly Posada I guess... That's a good question. I think that something that... I was having this conversation with my partner's younger sister. She's only in middle school, but we were talking about higher education and if she wanted to go to college. I brought up the fact that sometimes... She would be also a first-generation student. I was letting her know. I was like, “Look. I understand that sometimes, maybe not now, but once you get to that stage, high school, where you're thinking about what you want to do—if you want to go to college, if you want to go to a technical school—it's definitely daunting for a first-generation student that hasn't experienced that to go through the process.” I guess that's just kind of it. With my experience in the in the Tri-Cities campus, I was able to gain some knowledge about the system, making it easier for me to attend graduate school. I kind of know what higher education, how higher education actually looks like. I was talking to her about that and how sometimes it's daunting. But luckily for her, she has multiple people, that she can ask for help in navigating the systems. 00;24;13;28 - 00;24;44;22 Robert Bauman And someone that is a role model, right? I thought of that too, as you're talking. Our student population, roughly 50% in first-gen, roughly 50% Latinx. It's the most diverse of the WSU campuses. Have you thought about that in your role as SABWSU Tri-Cities President, being a role model, potentially? 00;24;45;23 - 00;25;14;09 Nathaly Posada Yeah. I have. I mean, I talked to a lot of people and even so now. I do remember this experience, where one of my fellow class... Well, he wasn't a classmate, but we worked in the same space, but he wasn't in student government. He told me that he looked up to me and that I pushed him to get out of his comfort zone and join more clubs and so and stuff. I mean, I do, but I kind of don't. I see my impact in other people, but I definitely feel like we're all moving towards greatness together. Not necessarily in a role model. 00;25;32;05 - 00;25;41;26 Robert Bauman Yeah, sure. Great. Well, I don’t think I have any other questions for you. Do you have anything else that we haven’t touched on? 00;25;41;28 - 00;25;44;19 Nathaly Posada I don't think so. 00;25;50;17 - 00;25;53;00 Unknown I have other questions, if that is okay? I was just wondering if you could talk about some of your hobbies or passions or interests outside of school or whatever just comes to mind? And whatever you are comfortable sharing about your future plans, your next steps? And maybe, if there is any message you would like to leave for your community as you take on a new path? 00;25;53;00 - 00;25;58;13 Nathaly Posada Well, yeah. I think that my passions and my hobbies... I love nature. I love being outdoors. As far as passions, definitely public service. That's something that I've always been passionate about, but it has evolved during the years of thinking about my career. Public service is everything to me. I hope to inspire others to continue or give to others. One of my passions is just talking about love. I feel like our world systems, our governments, revolve around fear. We're not leading necessarily with love and compassion. We're just fearful of each other. And so, that's a that's my message. Lead with love. My hobbies are reading. It's funny because once I graduated, I feel like I read so much more than when I was in school. 00;27;38;01 - 00;27;40;08 Robert Bauman When you are not being forced to...? [laughter] 00;27;40;10 - 00;27;58;00 Nathaly Posada Yeah. I love reading. I love nature. As far as my future endeavors, I will be getting a master's degree at the University of Washington. I'm not betraying. I'm not betraying WSU, but I'm just another liaison. 00;27;58;07 - 00;27;59;24 Robert Bauman It’s a Masters in Public Administration, right? 00;27;59;25 - 00;28;15;23 Nathaly Posada Yes. A master's in public administration at the Evans School of Public Policy. As far as my future, I hope to be a policy analyst. I'd love to work for the government one day. 00;28;15;25 - 00;28;24;13 Speaker 4 Okay. Would you mind saying, the part about my messages with love, but you had looked over at me, and that will look kind of... 00;28;24;14 - 00;28;25;13 Nathaly Posada Okay. Okay. 00;28;25;20 - 00;28;29;15 Speaker 4 So just look at him. and say that that piece again about your message. That was really powerful. But I'm afraid if you look off that it is going to look... [?] Nathaly Posada So, I feel like we lead or we survive... We are in this constant survival mode of fearing one another. I think that one of the steps to get through that is leading with love and living through love. Loving each other through adversity. And, in the same sense of being open-minded to everything. That is my message. 00;29;11;18 - 00;29;17;24 Robert Bauman Well, thank you again very much. I'm glad we were able to set this up before you move. It's good to see you again. 00;29;17;27 - 00;29;20;19 Nathaly Posada Yeah. Of course. Robert Bauman Thank you. Nathaly Posada Likewise. Robert Bauman: Antes que nada, mi nombre es Robert Bauman. Estoy conduciendo esta entrevista oral de historia con Nathaly Mendoza en julio 20 del 2023. Estamos haciendo esta entrevista en el campo de Washington State University en Tri-Cities. Entonces Nathaly una vez más por propósitos administrativos podrías por favor decir y deletrear tu nombre completo por favor. Nathaly Mendoza Posada: Si, por supuesto, ¿miro hacia allá? Mi nombre es Nathaly, se deletrea N-A-T-H-A-L-Y, apellido Mendoza Posada, M-E-N-D-O-Z-A, el otro apellido P-O-S-A-D-A. Bauman: ¿Ahí un guion? Mendoza: No. Bauman: Okey, gracias empecemos nuestra conversación con, si nos pudieras hablar sobre tu familia y esencialmente la historia de inmigración de tu familia. Cuando y porque vinieron a Tri-Cities esa especie de historia. Mendoza: Si, por supuesto. Al principio empezó con mi abuela creo que fue antes de que yo naciera ella se mudó aquí. Ella tenía seis hijos, como madre soltera tuvo que mudarse a los Estados Unidos mientras sus padres cuidaban a sus hijos. También había niños mayores igualmente se cuidaban los unos a los otros. Ella se mudó a Tri-Cities primero. Primero se mudó a Florida, luego se mudó a Chicago y luego se mudó a Washington. ¿Por qué? ¿Como? Probablemente por trabajo. Uno años después cuando yo tenía nueve o diez mi mama y yo nos mudamos a los Estados Unidos aquí a Pasco porque mi abuela ya estaba aquí. Yo tenía nueve o diez, nos mudamos igual por la situación financiera en México que continuaba empeorando. Un modo en que mi madre podría proveer para ella y para mí, pero también sus dos hijos mayores que estaban en México e iban a dar el salto para mudarse para acá. Bauman: Okey, venir aquí a Tri-Cities fue en parte por tu abuela. Mendoza: Si. Bauman: Okey, cuando dejaste México, ¿pudiste venir directamente aquí? ¿Tuviste que parar en algún lugar en tu camino o paraste en otro lado? Mendoza: Conforme la pasada paramos quiero decir que, en Arizona, y estuve ahí por un poco, probablemente una semana mientras esperaba a mi mama. Entonces venimos aquí, derecho aquí. Bauman: ¿De qué parte de México es tu familia? Mendoza: Como de todos lados, mi abuela era de Hidalgo, Guerrero mi mama vivió por mucho tiempo ahí, pero yo nací en Silao, Guanajuato cuando mi mama se mudó. Y luego de ahí medio venimos para acá. Bauman: ¿Y mencionaste que tenías dos hermanos menores? Mendoza: Mayores. Bauman: ¿También vinieron para acá en algún punto? Mendoza: No ellos ya estaban en sus años de universidad, ellos decidieron quedarse y continuar yendo a la escuela allá. Ambos tenían su carrera allá entonces nunca volvieron. Vienen a visitar, pero se quedaron allá. Bauman: ¿Qué tipo de trabajo o labores tu abuela y luego tu madre encontraron cuando vinieron aquí a Tri-Cities? Mendoza: Todo era trabajo en el campo así que mi abuela termino haciendo toda clase de trabajos en el campo especialmente porque emigro desde Florida. Hizo campos de naranja allá, quiero decir que en Chicago trabajo en plantas y cuando vino aquí fue manzana, cereza básicamente todas las huertas que Tri-Cities tiene para ofrecer. Bauman: ¿Y fue similar para tu mama? Mendoza: Si. Bauman: ¿Tu tenías nueve cuando viniste aquí, como una de nueve años como fue la transición? ¿Sabías inglés? ¿Como fue la transición de la escuela aquí? ¿Podrías hablarnos de eso? Mendoza: Fue difícil, no sabía nada de inglés de México por suerte tuve maestros que eran bilingües. Termine yendo a la escuela primaria Longfellow, no sé si había clases ELA en ese tiempo, pero no me pusieron en ELA clases. Era solo inglés, pero mi maestra de ingles era bilingüe y no tenía problemas con matemáticas. La transición fue difícil por la barrera del lenguaje, pero logre hallarle el modo y tal vez entenderlo en un año y comunicarme un poco después de un año. Bauman: ¿Qué clase de alojamiento pudieron encontrar cuando llegaron al principio? Mendoza: Bueno, vivíamos con mi abuela en eso tiempo ella ya tenía su casa así que nos quedamos con ella. Bauman: Okey, cierto. ¿Después de medio lograr esa transición, como fue crecer en Pasco y Tri-Cities para ti? ¿Qué clase de memorias o cosas de la comunidad hispana había en el área? Mendoza: Pienso que ahora que veo hacia atrás y me comunico con mis compañeros que también son parte de la comunidad, no solo la comunidad hispana pero también otras comunidades inmigrantes es que nuestros padres siempre estaban trabajando para poder asegurarse de que pudiéramos sobrevivir. Gran parte era no cuidarnos a nosotros, pero definitivamente encontrar apoyo emocional con nuestros amigos o con todos los amiguitos como otros de diez años, pero estaba bien. Tenía primos aquí que eran mayores. En general se trataba de encontrar mi camino, encontrarme a mí misma de cierto modo y tratar de asimilar y adaptar en la cultura y en un país nuevo. Bauman: Claro, ¿qué te llevo a venir a WSU Tri-cities? ¿Conseguir una educación mayor o diploma de universidad fue algo que era importante para ti y tu familia? Mendoza: Bueno mis dos hermanos terminaron yendo a la universidad y con educación mayor. Eso siempre fue inculcado en mí, no en el modo que “Tienes que hacerlo” pero más como “Este es el modo que tus hermanos pavimentaron el camino.” Obviamente que mi mama no tuviera un certificado de universidad fue un factor. Se aseguro de que tuviéramos las oportunidades para que lo pudiéramos hacer por nosotros mismos. Ir a WSU Tri-Cities fue porque me quería quedar cerca de mi mama. Supongo que la historia en general es que siempre hemos estado juntas y en parte por eso no quería ir a la universidad estuvo bien venir a WSU Tri-Cities. Hice muchas grandes memorias aquí, estuve involucrada en muchas posiciones de liderazgo dentro de la universidad y en general fue un buen peldaño y un modo de crecer en mis futuros esfuerzos. Bauman: Si, entonces háblame de eso. ¿Qué te llevo a envolverte en el gobierno estudiantil y otros grupos y actividades en el campo? Mendoza: Bueno fue durante COVID cuando me estaba involucrando en general era muy tímida, estuve atascada en mi zona de comodidad en mi primer y segundo año aquí también estuve en Running Start aquí, también fue una transición. Durante COVID fue como, ¿“Que tengo que perder?” esa fue la pregunta que me hice definitivamente, estaba “porque no?” me llevo a conectarme con el gobierno estudiantil pero también con otros clubs y organizaciones. Valió la pena tomar la iniciativa y dar el salto. Bauman: Si, entonces como mencionaste mucho fue durante COVID. Me pregunto si podrías hablarme sobre eso un poco. Como cuales fueron algunos de desafíos de estar involucrada en el gobierno estudiantil durante COVID en términos de comunicarse con los estudiantes y tener eventos y esas clases de cosas. Mendoza: Creo que la parte más difícil… también área parte MOSAIC center para la inclusión de estudiantes durante ese año. La lucha más grande era “Como hacemos que WSU Tri-Cities se sienta como una comunidad sin estar juntos”. Esa fue la lucha más grande. Enviábamos correos electrónicos a través del MOSAIC center. Organizábamos eventos y esperábamos que alguien se presentara. Es definitivamente mejor tener clases en el hogar, pero pierdes el sentido del campo y la experiencia de la universidad porque estas en tu hogar todo el tiempo. A comparación de estar en el campo, como nuestros estudiantes que esperan entre clases, irían al evento, verían comida, entrarían al cuarto. Eso no era una posibilidad durante COVID, ese era el problema más grande. Pienso que no solo para nosotros, pero para todos los otros departamentos aquí en Tri-Cities y para, tú sabes, otras universidades en la nación. Estoy definitivamente contenta de que nuestra población estudiantil que, si se presentó, hiso que se lanzara cuando volvimos en persona. Nuestros estudiantes sabían que estos recursos estarían disponibles para ellos. Bauman: Si, una de las cosas que nuestros estudiantes tenían problemas era acceso a internet, ¿cierto? Cuando estábamos completamente en línea desde marzo del 2020 hasta primavera del 2021. ¿Cuál otro problema recuerdas, cuando estabas involucrada con el gobierno estudiantil del que tenías que arreglar o atender o tratar de trabajar en ellos? Mendoza: Si, durante ese año recuerdo uno de los problemas más grandes no era solo el internet, pero también el acceso a una computadora. Yo también experimente muchos problemas con la computadora. Eso fue algo que el gobierno estudiantil… ese año los presidentes eran Robin y Stephanie. Ellas desarrollaron el programa para que los estudiantes pudieran rentar computadoras si las necesitaban. Ese fue definitivamente otro problema que mire. Pienso que tenía en ese momento un sistema de computadora más o menos bueno, aun así, me fallo muchas veces. Pero me imagino lo que otros estudiantes sin acceso a internet o acceso a computadora podrían haber pasado en una experiencia donde todo el aprendizaje era virtual. Bauman: Cierto, y luego por supuesto el siguiente año al volver hubo nuevos desafíos. Todos tenían que usar máscaras y también algunos estudiantes se resistían a volver. Algunos cursos eran completamente en línea, otros híbridos y algunos eran… me pregunto si hubo problemas relacionados con eso. Cosas que recuerdes que estén relacionadas con el gobierno estudiantil en lo que tratabas de trabajar ahí. Mendoza: Si, el desafió más grande fue… durante COVID, toda la universidad se reinició porque no habíamos estado aquí por mucho tiempo. No sabíamos cómo o como las cosas operaban, o cuales eran las normas. Para nosotros fue traer la vida de regreso al campo, hacerlo sentir como un campo de nuevo, cuando muchos de nuestros estudiantes, especialmente los de primer año que ya habían pasado un año en clases virtuales, ¿cómo sería su experiencia? ¿Qué es lo que van a recordar dentro de su primer año? No solo de regreso al campo, pero su primer año de universidad. Ese fue el obstáculo más grande para mí en lo personal. Era adaptarse a los continuos métodos nuevos de aprendizaje que necesitaba. De ser totalmente virtuales a intentar manejar mi tiempo mejor a estar en el salón donde sentía que no lo había hecho en mucho tiempo. Las hibridas siempre fueron raras. Definitivamente la agenda fue un salvavidas. Bauman: Bueno si, entre tus clases y luego todas tus responsabilidades como líder estudiantil. Si, estoy seguro de que tener todo planeado fue muy útil. Entonces hablaste sobre como eras un poco tímida, me pregunto cómo tu involucración con el liderazgo estudiantil te llevo a avanzar. ¿Qué aprendiste de eso y que te has llevado de eso? Mendoza: Me refiero que definitivamente me enseno que está bien hablar con todos. Me traerá nuevas experiencias. Mientras más conexiones haga, más puertas se abren para mí. Siento que eso es algo de lo que no necesariamente se habla con otros estudiantes en nuestra comunidad. No nos enseñan a hacer conexiones, no nos enseñan hacer todas estas cosas y definitivamente el gobierno estudiantil me capa tizó para expandirme más y poder contar mi historia. Mi mentor durante mi año, siempre no impulso a eso. Con forme a Isaac y a mí, mi vicepresidente era continuar conectándonos, continuar hablando con varios donadores, incluso si era un poco incomodo estar en estos espacios, porque eran nuevos. Avanzando hacia adelante lo que aprendí fue salir y hablar con otra gente. Probablemente no me doy suficiente crédito en eso, también tengo mucha gente que me da su apoyo y ala que le pido ayuda. Eso es lo más grande, pedir ayuda con algo que yo tome. Bauman: Si, es una buena lección para aprender. Hablaste sobre hablar con donadores, ¿qué otra clase de responsabilidades? Cuando pienso en presidente de ASB, siempre pienso en trabajar con estudiantes y cosas en el campo y tu hablaste de algunos de los desafíos de eso. ¿Cuáles otras responsabilidades salieron en esa posición que tal vez yo no imagino u otras? Mendoza: Por supuesto, el presidente del cuerpo estudiantil en WSU Tri-Cities se supone que debe ser un enlace entre la administración y los estudiantes. Fue trabajar mucho con la administración teniendo juntas mensuales, juntas semanales para hablar sobre los desafíos que nuestros estudiantes enfrentaban. Algunas veces los desafíos más grandes era que los estudiantes querían y demandaban las cosas rápidas y correctamente porque solo están aquí por cuatro o cinco años si no es que menos. Hacer cambios toma dinero y toma tiempo. Algunas veces en la educación avanzada el reloj se mueve más lento de como los estudiantes queremos que… de cómo queremos que los estudiantes vean el cambio. Eso era parte de mis responsabilidades, también tuve la oportunidad de trabajar con Anna Plemons y el canciller Hyanes, pude compartir mi historia con los donantes en la fundación de WSU y hablar con el presidente Kirk. Así que mucha administración y muchas audiencias a las que no estaba acostumbrada a hablar o a compartir mi experiencia con, pero también aprendí el modo de entrar y salir de eso. Algunas veces teníamos reacciones no deseadas y ver como el canciller Haynes trataba con eso me sirvió de mucho. Bauman: Algunos podrían tener reacciones negativas en respuesta a eso. ¿En algunas de esas audiencias en las que hablaste… estuviste involucrada en hablar con prospectos de estudiantes, grupos que ya fuera en el campo o afuera en la comunidad? Mendoza: Si, definitivamente con prospectos de estudiantes. Cada recorrido, ASBWSU estuco aquí para eventos de conexiones. Hablábamos con ellos, hablábamos con los alumnos también, con los que conocíamos más o menos y que constantemente visitaban el campo. Bauman: En esas conversaciones, compartías tu historia, ¿la historia de tu familia y también hablabas del campo? Mendoza: Si, entonces era como, “Por eso decidí ir a Tri-Cities”. Fue por mi familia, porque podía viajar a diario y vivir en mi casa mientras tenía las herramientas para una gran educación. Eso fue definitivamente una de las razones, la otra cosa era lo que el campo tenía para ofrecer para atraer a otros estudiantes u otros estudiantes prospectos de estudiantes para asistir aquí. Bauman: Me pregunto si todas estas experiencias, las experiencias de tu familia, tus experiencias de educación… ahora mientras te diriges a la escuela de postgrado, otro trabajo en un lugar nuevo, Seattle. ¿Qué piensas que estas experiencias tienen… como te han preparado para el futuro? Mendoza: Si, me refiero, creo que me han preparado tanto. Si no fuera por mi parte en el gobierno estudiantil, no creo que hubiera podido decir eso. Estoy definitivamente muy confiada a entrar a nuevos lugares porque lo que he hecho básicamente toda mi vida, adaptarme y cambiar. Adaptarme con todo lo que está cambiando a mi alrededor es algunas veces algo muy natural y me sale natural. Siendo presidente del cuerpo estudiantil, yendo a la escuela de postgrado y otras oportunidades que tengo, definitivamente me permite usar todo lo que he aprendido aquí. Supervise a otros estudiantes, así que tengo experiencia en eso. Pude trabajar con partes interesadas y donadores y hablar con ellos eso es algo que me llevo conmigo en mi carrera profesional. Definitivamente el gobierno estudiantil es algo que los estudiantes deben hacer si están interesados en involucrarse, es mi opinión. Bauman: Hay algo que ya sea de las experiencias de tu familia o tus experiencias educacionales personales o al crecer en Pasco, en la comunidad por las que no te hemos preguntado al respecto o que no hemos hablado de que tu creas que podrían ser de ayuda o importantes para compartir. Mendoza: Supongo… esa es una buena pregunta, creo que algo es de eso es tener esta conversación con la pareja de mi hermana menor. Ella está en la secundaria solamente, pero hemos hablado de educación superior y si ella quería ir a la universidad. He sacado el hecho varias veces, ella igual seria estudiante de primera generación. Le estaba diciendo, “mira entiendo que algunas veces, tal vez no ahora pero cuando estes en esa etapa, en preparatoria, cuando estás pensando en lo que quieres hacer, si quieres ir a la universidad, o si quieres ir a una escuela técnica, es definitivamente desalentador para un estudiante de primera generación que no ha experimentado lo que es pasar por el proceso.” Supongo que eso es todo. Con mi experiencia en el campo de Tri-Cities pude obtener algo de conocimiento en el sistema haciéndolo más fácil para mi asistir a la escuela de postgrado. Tengo una idea lo que es educación superior, como la educación superior luce. Estaba hablando con ella sobre eso y como algunas veces es desalentador, pero por suerte para ella tiene varias personas a las que les puede pedir ayuda para navegar los sistemas. Bauman: ¿Y alguien que es un modelo por seguir, cierto? Pensé eso también mientras hablabas. Nuestra población estudiantil es de 50% más o menos de primera generación, más o menos 50% Latinx, es el más diverso campo de WSU. Has pensado es eso un tu papel como presidente de SABWSU de Tri-Cities, ser un modelo para seguir posiblemente. Mendoza: Si, lo he hecho, me refiero que he hablado con mucha gente incluso ahora. Recuerdo esta experiencia donde uno mis compañeros de clase, bueno no era un compañero de clase, pero trabajábamos en el mismo espacio, pero él no estaba en el gobierno estudiantil. Me dijo que me veía y yo lo alentaba a salir de su zona de comodidad y unirse a más clubs y así y más cosas. Me refiero que sí, pero no lo pienso, veo mi impacto en otras personas, pero definitivamente siento que todos avanzamos hacia la grandeza juntos. No necesariamente un modelo a seguir. Bauman: Si, seguro. Grandioso, bueno no creo tener otras preguntas para ti. Tienes algo más que no hemos tocado aun? Mendoza: No creo. Orador 3: ¿Yo tengo otras preguntas, si está bien? Me preguntaba si podrías hablar sobre algunos de tus pasatiempos o pasiones o intereses fuera de la escuela o lo que sea que te venga a mente. ¿Lo que sea que te sientas cómoda compartiendo sobre tus planes futuros, tus próximos pasos? ¿Y tal vez si hay un mensaje que le gustaría dejarle a tu comunidad mientras tomas un nuevo camino? Mendoza: Bueno, sí creo que mis pasiones y mis pasatiempos… me encanta la naturaleza, amo estar afuera, tanto a mis pasiones definitivamente el servicio público. Eso es algo que siempre me ha apasionado, pero ha evolucionado durante los años que he pensado en mi carrera. Servicio público lo es todo para mí, espero inspirar a otros a continuar o dar a otros. Una de mis pasiones es hablar sobre amor. Siento que los sistemas de nuestro mundo, nuestro gobierno gira alrededor del miedo, no estamos dirigiendo necesariamente con amor y con compasión, solo nos tememos los unos a los otros. Ese es mi mensaje, lideren con amor. Mi pasatiempo es leer, es gracioso porque una vez que me gradué siento que leo mucho más que cuando estaba en la escuela. Bauman: ¿Cuándo no te están forzando? Risas. Mendoza: Si, amo leer, amo la naturaleza. Por mis futuros esfuerzos, sacare mi maestría en la universidad de Washington. No estoy traicionando, no estoy traicionando WSU, pero es solo otro enlace. Bauman: ¿Es una maestría en administración pública, cierto? Mendoza: Si, es una maestría en administración pública en la póliza publica de la escuela Evans. Con respecto a mi futuro espero ser una analista de pólizas. Me encantaría trabajar para el gobierno algún día. Orador 3: Bien, te importaría decir, la parte de mis mensajes con amor, pero es que me miraste a mí y eso no se mirara bien. Mendoza: Esta bien, bien. Orador 3: Entonces míralo a él y repite esa parte de tu mensaje de nuevo. Eso fue muy poderoso, pero me temo que si miras a un lado se va a ver… Mendoza: Entonces, siento que lideramos o sobrevivimos… estamos en esto modo de sobrevivencia constante de temer el uno al otro. Creo que uno de los pasos para sobrepasar eso es liderar con amor y vivir a través del amor. Amándonos unos a los otros a través de la adversidad y en la misma esencia de ser de mente abierta a todo, ese es mi mensaje. Bauman: Bueno, muchas gracias de nuevo, estoy contento de que pudiéramos organizar esto antes de que te muevas. Fue bueno verte de nuevo. Mendoza: Si, por supuesto. Bauman: Gracias. Mendoza: Igualmente. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:29:20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nathaly Posada Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Latin American; Hanford Site; Richland, WA, USA Description An account of the resource Nathaly Mendoza Posada was born in Silao, Guanajuato, Mexico, and immigrated to the United States at the age of nine, settling in Pasco, Washington, with her mother and grandmother. Her grandmother, a single mother of six, had first migrated to the U.S. for field and factory work, paving the way for later generations. Growing up in the Tri-Cities, Posada faced the challenge of learning English and adapting to a new culture while her family worked in agriculture. A first-generation college student, she attended Washington State University Tri-Cities, where she earned her degree and became deeply involved in student leadership, eventually serving as Student Body President during the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. Through her leadership, she worked to strengthen campus community, promote inclusion, and expand student resources. Passionate about public service and equity, Posada is pursuing a Master’s in Public Administration at the University of Washington’s Evans School of Public Policy, with the goal of becoming a policy analyst. She hopes to inspire others by her message to “lead and live through love,” emphasizing compassion and open-mindedness in the face of adversity. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 20, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbe017a467d7ab32dc0d5db80712a8f57.jpg 1337fd559f6af6ee8c63ef8a01ed0104 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7d248f55af196ae30b8c63e48a7a14f4.mp4 eccb246ba5acd6dc92f3d1b17b41ba52 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ned Wogman Description An account of the resource An interview with Ned Wogman conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc30dd86cc5da96b5f7ade08ffac61fba.jpg 52f1b411e04e6f5720a642dfe6518f9c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F73a2751762ddec149c67aa731b479a52.mp4 64a165fc137c2ff8c37fbe7419ffc0f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nels Laulainen Description An account of the resource An interview with Nels Laulainen conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcaf0d30b7578031192df95ac3f19d628.jpg bef66851539f406753cf08c67a310697 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb3c7022b7fab9e8825442d1b24d584f1.mp4 46c1103abffb62422a577d5674a3d32e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnson, Norman Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Johnson_Norman Robert Bauman: All right, is that all right? Camera man: Yeah. Bauman: Okay. All right, we can go ahead and get started. Norman Johnson: Okay. Bauman: And if we could start first by maybe having you say your name and spell your name for us? Johnson: It's Norman Neil Johnson. J-O-H-N-S-O-N. Bauman: Great. And my name's Robert Bauman. We're conducting this oral history interview on November 5 of 2013. And we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington University Tri-Cities. So let's start maybe by having you talk about your family, first, and what you know about when they came to the area here. Johnson: My grandparents--I can remember my grandpa telling me--he came out here in 1910 and bought land. And then he moved back to Idaho. He was working in the sawmills in Idaho. And then he come back in 1918 and brought my grandmother and my aunt and my mother back. And they started farming in 1918. Bauman: And his name was? Johnson: Pete Hanson. Bauman: Pete Hanson. Do you know why this area, why Richland? What brought him here? Just the availability of land? Johnson: I know he had a brother that owned the farm. And they bought the farm right next to him. And then his brother died before I was born. His oldest daughter was who farmed it after I was born. I don't know why they came here. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And how old would your mother have been in 1918 when they-- Johnson: Four years old. Bauman: Four years old. So she grew up here. Johnson: Yeah, I was one in Lady Lourdes Hospital in Pasco in 1936. The only hospital here. Bauman: Okay. And what about your father, then? Johnson: I think he was from Republic, Washington. Somewhere over there, because--I was so young when he died, that I never really knew much about him. And I didn't think to ask his brothers or sisters about him. Bauman: But did he live in the area too, you and is that how your parents met? Johnson: Yeah, mm-hm, yep. He had an older sister that lived here, too. Their name was Perkins. There was quite a few of them. Bauman: Mm-hm. And you were born in what year? Johnson: 1936. Bauman: 1936. And your family had a farm? Johnson: Yes. Bauman: And what sort of crops? Johnson: All I can remember is asparagus and strawberries and alfalfa for their livestock. That's all I can remember. I don’t know, my grandpa said that the only people that made any money out their farming and amount to anything was the ones that had orchards. And asked him how come he didn't plant trees, and he said he couldn't afford to buy any. So I guess he never made a lot of money. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And do you know about how large the farm was? Johnson: He had 17 acres and then he farmed my mother's 10 acres, so he had 27 acres all together. Bauman: And do you remember any other buildings on the property? A barn, storage buildings? Johnson: Yeah, we had--there was a storage building right behind our house. It was maybe 40 feet from the rear of our house. We always called it the other house, and I think it had been actually a residence of somebody's at one time. But I don't know when. Bauman: Okay. And do you know roughly where the farm was? Johnson: As I recall it was about five miles from downtown Richland. And it must have been at least a mile off from the river. Bauman: And did you have electricity on the farm? Johnson: We got electricity just before I was born, but my cousins that live next to us they never did. They didn't get electricity. But we had it just before I was born, I guess. Bauman: What about telephone? Johnson: Nope. No, we didn't have any of that. Bauman: And how about irrigation? Johnson: We had irrigation water, yes. Bauman: Do you know how that was--what sort of-- Johnson: It's real irrigated, is what they did. They had a concrete pipe that run at the head of the field. And it had little holes in it. And then they had cedar plugs that they put in it. And when they wanted the water rail, they took that plug out, and away it went. Bauman: Do you remember who your nearest neighbors were? Johnson: Well the Brewers were the closest. They was the ones that was my mother's cousin. Bauman: So what do you remember about the area from the time you were growing up here? Johnson: Not a whole lot. I remember a few things. I remember when they shut our water off. They shut all our irrigation water off. The government did. And so we couldn't irrigate anything, so my grandfather went to work. As I recall it was up in big Pasco for somebody--when they were building the warehouses over there. And just me and my grandmother there. And my mother working at the post office. The government brought some prisoner of war out there, and just left them. Know what they did, they had them doing something out there. I remember my grandmother was really worried about the Italians, is what they were. And that would have been in like '43 or '44. Something like that. Bauman: Okay. So did you go to school in Richland? Johnson: I went to the first and second grade. First grade we went all day. But the second grade, the population had grown so much that we had two shifts, and I had the afternoon shift. And that was only time I went to school in Richland, was the first and second grade. Bauman: Okay. So was second grade like 1943, '44, or something? Johnson: Yeah, it must have been the '43, '44 year, yeah. Bauman: Do you remember anything about the school itself? The building or any of the teachers? Johnson: Yeah, seemed like it was over there where Lewis and Clark is now, I think. It was the only school there. Seems to me like it was a long building on one end, as you started at--it would've been the north end--the first grades, and then as you walked farther the other away the grades went up. I don't know how far they went. It might have been high school on the other end. I don't know. But I know I had cousins that went on the other end, and they were like five and seven years older than me. And they went up in the other end of the building. Bauman: And how did you get to school? Was there a school bus? Johnson: Yeah, a school bus. Bauman: Was it a fairly standard sort of the school bus? Or what would you think of the school bus now? Johnson: Well, probably not as good school buses now, I don't imagine. No, no, nothing like that. But I don't remember what they were like. Bauman: Okay. So you went there, you said first and second grade. And what happened then, after second grade? Johnson: Well that was when my grandfather was building a house in his spare time over in Kennewick--500 block on Rainier. And when he got it done, that summer of '44 we moved over there. I think that we went back to the farm one time, just to look at it. And remember my grandfather telling me he wanted to buy the building, the house, and move it to Kennewick, and they wouldn't sell it to him. He was not happy about that, either. What they did with it, I don't know. Bauman: So you were able to stay in the house into 1944? Johnson: Yeah. Bauman: But then you had to leave? Johnson: Well, we did. I don't know if they were actually forced to leave at that time. But we did. When my grandfather got the house finished in Kennewick, we moved over there. Bauman: And do you remember when the government started sort of moving in? Do you have memories from that period? Johnson: At the time before they moved in my mother was working for the irrigation department, for Mr. Fletcher, I think he run the irrigation department. And she said they had heard something was going on-- something was going to come here, and they didn't know what. And I imagine that would have been in probably '41 or '42. And of course that job went away when they shut the water off, so she went to work for the postal department in Richland. Bauman: Oh, okay. But you don't know if your mother or grandparents ever got a notice saying you have to leave by a certain time? Johnson: I think did, yeah. I don't know if they ever said right out that you had to leave at a certain time. But they were condemning our property, is what they called it. They were all farms. They shut the water off, there was no reason to stay there anymore. Because it's pretty arid out there. Bauman: Do you have any memories of the--I know you lived outside of town itself, but did you go down very often? Do you have any memories of the town itself? Johnson: Yeah, I used to go in with my grandfather and get groceries. And he had a '36 Ford pickup, and he'd let me sit on his lap and steer. I was about five years old, I guess. I can remember him going--there was one tavern there. I can remember him going in there, and I could go in with him, but I had to sit way in the back. They had a bench back there in the back, and I sat back there and waited for him. And we'd go to get groceries at John Dam's Grocery Store. He had a partner, too, but I don't remember what his name was. That's about all I can remember about the downtown. Bauman: Do you remember any other institutions, any other churches or anything along those lines? Johnson: No, I don't. Bauman: Okay. How about any community events? Do you remember any special occasion? Johnson: The only thing I can remember is, they used to have--farmers have something called a chivaree. And I don't know if all that was when people were getting married or something of that nature, I guess. That's all I can remember about that. Wasn't too lively around here, then. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So can you tell me a little more about your family then? And you said in 1944 then, your grandfather bought a place in Kennewick Johnson: Yeah. There was a guy named--another Richland farmer--his last name was Murray. One of them was Brainerd and the other one was Audemar. No, Brainerd and I can't remember the other one. But I don't know if Brainerd was the son or the father. But they bought about, oh, all the way from Fourth Avenue up in Kennewick up to about what would have been Seventh Avenue right now. He bought that whole thing. And people from Richland started buying. I know there was--the Ericksons bought land there, and the Northings bought land there, the Samses bought land there. And there might have been a couple more, but there was a lot of Richland people bought five and ten acres. I know my grandpa bought five. And the bottom part of his went halfway from Rainier halfway to Vancouver—no, Olympia, through Olympia. And then John Erickson bought the land. And then just south of us the Northings bought the next whole ten acres there. Oh, there was quite a few Richland people there. Bauman: I want to ask then, growing up you said there wasn't a whole lot going on in Richland. Johnson: [LAUGHTER] No, not that I knew of. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, as a young child, obviously. What sorts of things did you do for fun or for entertainment? Did you go swimming in the river, or did you do hunting, fishing sorts of things? Johnson: Well, when I was little, we get a little irrigation ditch that run through our place. We called it the lateral, come off the big ditch. And it was probably maybe a foot and a half deep. Me and my cousin used to go play in that all time. I was interested in rocks, and my grandma used to take me out there in the desert and we'd hunt for pretty rocks. And there was an awful lot of sand. I remember, when the wind would blow there you didn't have dust storms you have sandstorms. And that hurt when we were out in that. In fact, a lot of our cars got the windows pitted from the sand. I can remember big sand dunes out there. And I used to go out there with my cousins once in a while. Like I say, there wasn't a whole lot going on. I was too young to do any sports or anything. I can remember my cousin that was seven years older than me. Brewer, Max Brewer. He'd go hunting out there. And one exciting thing I remember, he was hunting with Verne McGan, I think it was. And his gun went off and hit Verne in the shoulder. That was a big, exciting thing. [LAUGHTER] It was a .22 so it didn't do a whole lot of damage. But still, pretty exciting. Oh, and I remember one thing, too. After the Navy put that base in Pasco, they had those trainers. Planes, training pilots, they were yellow, and they were double-wing--one over the top of the other. And they had two open cockpits in them, is what they were. And they used to come down so low that my dog would get up on a haystack and bark at them, they'd come in so low. And two of them crashed out there between us and Brewers’ one time. One of them crashed, and the other one tried to land in the sagebrush. And he couldn’t land one of those in the sagebrush, so. There's parts all over out there. And I heard some of the farmer used to shoot at them with shotguns. They'd come down so low they'd go underneath the telephone wires. Bauman: Wow. Johnson: So it's just a bunch of young guys learning to fly. But they were over there all the time. Bauman: So did that start like in '42 or '43? Johnson: '43 probably. Bauman: Did you ever talk with your mom or your grandparents later about leaving, and what their perspective was on that? Johnson: Well, they weren't real happy about it, like I said. Most of the farmers were really unhappy about it. My grandfather, he was from Norway, so he just thought that was the way things went. He went to work for some company who was building Big Pasco over there. And then in 1947, he went to work for DuPont. And I think he only worked for DuPont for about six months, then DuPont left and General Electric took over. And he thought that was great. Best job he ever had, he said. He was a teamster. He drove from central stores to 300 Area. He delivered the things that were ordered for the 300 Area from central stores. Bauman: Do you know how long he did that? Johnson: Until he retired. In those days, when you turn 65, you could work until the end of that month, and then you couldn't work there any longer. So he retired in '53, October of '53. He was not happy about that, either. He didn't want to retire. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Did anyone else from your family work at Hanford at all? Johnson: Yeah. My mother's cousin's husband, Lawrence Brewer, worked out there. And let's see, who else did? Must be somebody else, but I can't remember who they are. Oh, yeah, they were neighbors, I remember some neighbors that worked out there. And I think you said you talked to one of them. Gordon Kaas, or Norman Kaas. Bauman: Gordon Kaas. Johnson: Yeah, he worked out there. I don't think Norman did. Bauman: Right, Gordon did. That's right. You said your grandfather enjoyed the job working out there, right? Did it seem strange at all, working at the place where you used to have a farm? Johnson: No, not to him. He thought General Electric was a fabulous place to work. Because he was from Norway and he'd worked in real hard jobs. Sawmill, and stuff like that. This is just driving a truck from central stores to 300 Area, and he thought it was great. Bauman: Now have you or any of your family members had a chance to go back at some point later and see the place at all? Johnson: Our place? Bauman: Yeah. Johnson: No. Well, my sister's oldest daughter got to go out there to our old farm one time. I talked to her the other day and said I'd like to go out there. And she said she’d try and get ahold of somebody. But I don't think she has. But they never lived out there. I'm the only one left alive in our family that lived out there on either one of those farms. My cousin just died, last summer. She was five years older than me. So here and I were the last ones, and it's just me now. Bauman: And who was your cousin? Johnson: Donna Bowder. And they lived over there up in Meadow Springs. Bauman: Why do you think it's important for us to do this sort of thing? For us to get the stories of people who used live-- Johnson: Anything history is worth keeping, I think. We shouldn't lose our history on anything, I don't think. There should be a lot of people left, descendants of the people that came out here. I'm sure they would like to know what their grandparents did. I think it's very interesting, really. Bauman: Were there any special memories that you have from--and I know you were very young when you moved away to Kennewick--Were there any special memories you have from the time you did live on the farm in Richland that sort of stand out to you that you haven't mentioned yet? Johnson: Well, I can remember my cousin, the one that just died, her and I used to have to pick a row of strawberries. And then my grandma would let us go play in the irrigation ditch. And that was a big deal for me. Let's see, I was about five years old at that point. Bauman: That was your reward? Johnson: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, yeah. Bauman: I was going to ask you, did you have any certain chores or things that you had to do to help out? Johnson: Yeah, I had a little car, a pedal car, but it was pretty hard to pedal in the sand. [LAUGHTER] And I can remember having electric trains, like that. One thing I remember about the house was the front room was real long. In those days we didn't have carpet, we had linoleum. And I had a little dog, a fox terrier, and I'd throw that ball in that front room, and he'd just chase it, and he'd just spin. And then he couldn't stop and he'd smack right into the wall. [LAUGHTER] So I had a lot of fun with that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I guess the dog kept doing it, so he must have been having fun too. Johnson: Oh, he did. Bauman: Anything else that I haven’t asked you about? Or anything else that sort of stands out, either your own memory, or maybe if you have any stories that your mother told or your grandparents told you. Bauman: Yeah, my grandpa used to tell me stories all time. He said they used to have down in the Columbia River—of course was it was a lot swifter than it is now because the McNary Dam wasn’t there. They had what they called a boom out there. It was a big log that was long, that was out there and it would catch all the driftwood. And they'd go down there for firewood, I guess is what they’d use it for. And he said he went down one time and they were netting salmon. And he said he come back with a whole backseat full of salmon in his old car. And he said they use to catch sturgeon down there about 12 feet long. And they'd hook the line onto a team of horses and drag them out of the river. That's a big fish. 12 feet long sturgeon. Bauman: Yeah. Johnson: That's about all, he never said too much about anything, he just farmed, that's all he did. Never had no hobbies or anything, just farm. Bauman: Mm-hm. So if someone was to ask you what it was like growing up, at least part of your youth in Richland, what the town was like-- Johnson: Very small. Very small. Wasn't nothing there, really. And I've had people say, tell me, well I didn't think there was a Richland before the Hanford project. And I said, sure was, because I lived there. I don't know if they believe me or not. I can remember going to town with my grandfather. And I remember when the strawberries would come on, I used to eat until I'd get sick. Things like, I remember one time--my mother used to take me to the movies on Sundays. And we'd go over to Pasco, the Liberty Theater in Pasco. There was only two theaters here, the Roxy Theater in Kennewick and the Liberty Theater in Pasco. And we went to the Liberty Theater one time--that was before the government come in--and it was on a Sunday and we come home, and there was--They were picking feathers out of ducks. And there my cousin, Max Brewer, he'd went up was hunting and he'd run into a bunch of ducks that were sitting on what little water was left in the irrigation ditch. And he shot into the bunch of them, got about 12 of them with one shot. So we were smelling pretty bad in there. Duck feathers, when they get wet, smell a little bad. [LAUGHTER] That's one of the things I remember. Kind of stands out in my memory. But I lose a lot from being that young. I forget a lot of things that happened. It was nice living on a farm. Really, when I was a kid. I don't know if I would have liked it when I got to be a teenager or not. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So have you sort of stayed in the area then, most of your life? Johnson: Yeah, yup. Bauman: Moved to Kennewick. Johnson: I went to work for General Electric when I was 18. 1955. And retired from Westinghouse in '94. Worked for four different companies there while I was working. Bauman: And so when you start working for GE, what sort of work were you doing? Johnson: I was only--when I was 18, you couldn't really get too much. The job I was working in a printing shop in the 700 Area. And then later I got a job with the Richland Fire Department for two years. At that No. 1 station on George Washington Way. And then when the city took over in '59, I thought I'd be better off staying with General Electric than the city. So I got a job as an operator out at 100-D Area. And I worked there until they shut DR down, which is the other reactor at D Area. And they sent me to H Area, and I worked there until they shut it down. And I worked-- then they sent me to F Area. And I worked there until they shut it down. Then there was an old powerhouse in town that supplied steam to the Desert Inn and all the schools and everything. And I worked in there until the Federal Building was built, then they shut off all the steam. Then I got laid off from General Electric, and it was just awful. They were leaving then. They left, and then the only thing here that was General Electric was N Area for a while. And a company called Douglas United Nuclear come in and took over the 100 Areas. And I had been off work about three weeks, and they called me up and wanted to know if I wanted to come work for them, which I did. So I went out to B Area. Bauman: B Area, is that what you said? Johnson: B Area. Bauman: Okay. Johnson: And then I come into town and I worked in the 300 Area. And then when they shut B Area down, I put in an application--I was down low on the seniority list--so I put in an application in with Battelle. And they offered me a job in I think it was June of '67. So I quit United Nuclear to work with Battelle. And then when Battelle--Westinghouse came in in 1970. The building I was working in, and my manager was going through Westinghouse so I had a choice, I went to Westinghouse too. And I worked for them from 1970 to '94. In the 300 Area. Bauman: Wow. Hm. So altogether almost 30 years. Johnson: I was there 39. A little over 39 years. Bauman: Right, right almost 40 years, right. So you worked at D Reactor, you said? Johnson: I worked in water department. Bauman: Oh, the water department, okay. And so what sorts of jobs or tasks did you have there? Johnson: Well, there was a lot of jobs in pump rooms. I worked on the filter plant. And what we did, we pumped the water out of the river and up to the 183 building, which was a filter plant. And then we treated it with some stuff that I can't remember the names of. And then we filtered it and sent it down to 190 buildings, which had all the--They had eight synchronous electric pumps in there. And they'd pump the water from there through the reactor to cool the reactor. Now remember I was on just shift work with 22 operators on each shift at that point. And then there was a few on day shift to relieve people. A lot of people out there then. The department I was in had over 500 employees when I went to work. The Power Department, they'd call it. And when I retired it was about 150 of us, I think. Bauman: Wow. I assume you needed to have security clearance of some sort? Johnson: Yeah, I had Q clearance most of the time, yes. Bauman: Were you ever working in jobs where you had to wear special protective equipment for the possibility of exposure or radiation? Johnson: Yeah, the last 15 years out there I went to what they called air balance. We did in-place testing of the heat for filters that filtered the air before it was released to the atmosphere. And I got into some pretty hot things a few times. Changed the set of filters in the 324 Building one time, and it was 350R. They were doing some work in one of the cells for the German government. And they got real crapped out. Bauman: Hm. Roughly what time period would this have been? Johnson: That would have been in probably '86. Probably something like that. Bauman: Oh, okay, okay. And so you have to have dosimeter? Something along those lines? Johnson: Yeah. We had to have rings on for it. And I had two dosimeters, one in each front pocket. Had two pair of coveralls on, and shoe covers, and then boots over that. Then you had a skull cap on and a hood over that. And then you had assault mask that covered your whole face. You had two pair of gloves--you put surgical gloves on and then canner gloves on. And these were all taped to your outer pair of coveralls. And then they went around and taped everything that was showing. So there was no skin showing. Bauman: Mm-hm. So, like, how long of a period of time could you do that work before you had to come out in terms of-- Johnson: You mean for exposure? Bauman: Exposure, yeah. Johnson: I never was in there where I had to come out for overexposure. They tried to keep it as low as you could get. And so it wasn't that bad. The only time that there was ever any much exposure was when we were testing some of the filters. Some of them would have hot places. Or when we were changing filters. They had the millwrights or the fitters come in and change them, and we had to be there to test them. And that was the only real hot thing I was around. One time I remember in 325 Building, we were in a hot room in the basement. And we had to take these caps off of the duct-work to inject the smoke in there. And when the guy was taking it off, it just all of a sudden, it felt like it was heavy. It fell down and this, it looked like gunpowder, went all over everything. So we spent a whole day in the whole-body counter downtown after that. So that wasn't no fun. [LAUGHTER] But nobody got anything. I didn't get anything. They just wanted to make sure that we didn't get anything. Because that stuff that come out was pretty hot, I guess. Bauman: I imagine safety pretty strongly emphasize at Hanford, in terms of procedures? Johnson: Oh, yeah. Especially got, towards the end that I was there, procedure compliance was the main thing. If you didn't follow procedures, some people lost their jobs because of that. And I remember one time, I usually run the machine that detected how bad the filters were leaking, and we got some new ones in. The old ones had just push buttons on them, and the new ones had toggle switches. And we were going to do a job one time, and they had only wrote a procedure for one of them. The push buttons, not the toggle switches. So we had to quit. We couldn't finish the job. Which I thought was really stupid. What difference does it make whether you push a button or flip a toggle switch? But they had to write another procedure for it. So that got kind of irritating. It was hard to get used to that. Where you used to go in there and get a job done, and after the procedure compliance came along, couldn't do that. Took three times as long to do a job. Bauman: Obviously when you started in 1955, focus was on production, and by the time you retired, definitely the focus was on cleanup. I wonder if that shift, how you saw that, impacted your work, maybe? Johnson: We lost a lot of work on the job that I had, the air balance job. Some of our main buildings, not just the 300. We took the 300 Area and 400 Area. And the 300 Area in 1987, I think it was, we transferred a lot of our buildings to Battelle, for some reason. I don't know what the reason was for that. And so we lost our job. Well, didn't get as much radiation exposure after that. They work-ordered me to Battelle for a while. And Battelle wanted to keep on doing that, and Westinghouse wouldn’t let them do it. But I had a chance--I could have transferred from Westinghouse to Battelle when they did that. If I had been 10 years younger, I probably would have done it. But I was up around 50 years old then. So that was the biggest change we had. And then the problem was, these buildings were scheduled to be tore down in the 300 Area. And if we would suggest that they do something, they'd say, no, we're not going to spend that kind of money on this building because we're going to tear it down in a couple years. It got kind of frustrating. I was glad to get out of there then. Things were changing, and I was too old to change with it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: President Kennedy visited the site in '63 to, I believe, the N Reactor. Were you here? Did you happen to be on site at the day? Johnson: I was here, but I was working graveyard, and I didn't feel like staying up that long to go see him. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That make sense. Johnson: [LAUGHTER Yeah. Bauman: Were there any significant incidents, events sort of things that stand out in your mind from your years working at Hanford, that you remember? Johnson: Well, when I worked on fire department, I was the youngest guy there. Actually I was 20 years old when I went to work on the fire department. And I used to have to ride the back of that truck. And when you'd have a fire—and we had a lot of false alarms, these kids would pull them pull-boxes all over town-- but you had to respond just like it was a real fire. And a lot of them we'd get was at the Bomber Bowl, you know, after a football game. But you'd be in bed, asleep, in the winter time. And then all of the sudden all the lights would come on and those bells will go bong, bong, like that. And you're just in a fog up out of there. And then you hit that cold air out there and it was a real shock. In fact I talked to a guy that works on the Seattle Fire Department, and I told him. He said, oh, they wouldn't let you do that no more. They don't let you ride the back of that truck. He asked me if we were tied on. I said no, we hung on pretty hard, though. You just had to, back there. But it was a good place to work. I really did like it. Before I retired it was not near as good. Because I was one of the youngest guys out there in my department. And most of the other older guys that I've worked with had either died or retired. So it wasn't the same. Bauman: What--of the different jobs you had at Hanford, different parts of the site that you worked, was there a job that you found the most rewarding? That you enjoyed the most, or one maybe that you found the most challenging? Johnson: The last one I had, the air balance job was. There was a lot of math in it, you had to figure out air flows, and you had take air flows. We had to test--they had open-faced hoods in there. And we had to check them--I think we checked them once a month to make sure the flow was up to standard. And I know one of the guys who was vice president out there when he retired. He used to see us, he'd stop and tell us that what you're doing is more important than any other job out here. You're keeping people safe, he said. I really appreciated that, that the vice president would notice us. But that was the best. I thought that was the most challenging job I had out there. You had to use your brain a little bit, and all that stuff. Bauman: You started to talk about this a little bit, maybe I'll ask you to talk about it a little more. So how was Hanford as a place to work? What overall are your impressions of your almost 40 years working there? Johnson: I thought it was really a fairly safe place to work, really. As far as the jobs I had, they were real careful about everything. I know my uncle took me through a plywood plant in Longview one time. The safety wasn't near as good there as it was on Hanford. It was easy to see that. It was a good job, really. As it went on you had to go through more things. They're always sending you to a class that didn't help you a bit, I didn't think. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good place to work. Bauman: I teach a class on the Cold War, and the of course, a number of the students that I have in my class were born after the Cold War ended. And so have no memories at all of the Cold War. Of course you were working at Hanford-- much of time you were working at Hanford was during the Cold War. So I wonder for young people today or future generations, how would you describe working at Hanford during this period of the Cold War, explain to them what that was like? Johnson: Well, it was-- I don't know how you would say it. It's a good place to work. They take real good care of you up there, I thought they did. The only thing I didn't like about it was shift work. I didn’t care for that. [LAUGHTER] My wife used to tell when I was coming towards the end of graveyard, she'd say well you're getting to be halfway decent to live with again. We changed shifts. We didn't work one straight shift. You work a week of swing, and a week of graveyard, and a week of days. Terrible shift. Anything would have been better than that. But I would say, if you don't mind shift work, it was great. Because I was lucky I ended up, when I went to work at Battelle I got day shift most of the time. But they were good people to work for. Pretty honest, people were out there. They all had Q Clearances, and so they had to be pretty reputable people to work there. So that was nice to work with people you trust and depend on. And it was all around a good place to work for me. I'm not sure how it is now. But I have a relatives out there now. Quite a few of them. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about in terms of your work at Hanford? Or anything you haven't had a chance to talk about yet, but you'd like to talk about? Johnson: I can't think of any now, I probably will when I get home. [LAUGHTER] I can't think of it now. [LAUGHTER] Some stuff comes back to me every once in a while that I don't think of all the time. There's a lot of funny things that happened out there. I remember one time the guys at my supervisor on graveyard, they'd always go dump their garbage out of their office. And it was still dark out, and he dumped it and a raccoon come out. About scared him to death, I guess [LAUGHTER] I remember one time they had to knock the reactor down when raccoons got in there where the transformers were. And he jumped from one to the other one, well it zapped him right in midair. So it knocked the reactor down. So there was a few funny things that did happen. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your memories, both about your childhood in Richland and also your years working at Hanford. I appreciate it. Johnson: Okay, thank you. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 700 Area 100 D Area DR Area H area F Area B Area 183 Building 190 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1936-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1994 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Hanson, Pete Brewer, Max Brewer, Lawrence Kass, Gordon Kass, Norman Bowder, Donna Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Norman Johnson Description An account of the resource An interview with Norman Johnson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-5 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-15: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. DuPont Fishing General Electric Richland (Wash.) Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe820e4a33e2a225f113a1dfd8ce52dc1.JPG 763070d0c7da2d875ae83bbbafedfcb8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5a38f1b11c375d7f5ef4abaa0f87f2ee.mp4 7f343470174833d48c62897595db0b57 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Norvin Sasser Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sasser_Norvin Robert Bauman: We’re pretty much ready to go? Man one: Whenever you're ready. Bauman: All right. Okay, we're going to go ahead and get started. So we could start by having you say and spell your name for us. Norvin Sasser: My name is Norvin Sasser. N-O-R-V-I-N, S-A-S-S-E-R. Bauman: Great. Thank you. And today's date is October 23rd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me how you came to Hanford, when you came here, what brought you here. Sasser: Well in the spring of 1943 I graduated from high school. And I was expecting to be drafted into the military service. But Uncle Sam said I was physically unfit for military service. So I started looking about for some way to support the war effort. And I learned from McQuinn’s that there was a recruiter in town recruiting people for a highly secret defense job at a place called Pasco, Washington. So I had somewhat of an agreement with the guy that told me about this that we would meet in town on a certain date and sign up and ship out. Well, he didn't show. So at the end of the day I struck out on my own. And I arrived at Hanford on the 27th of September, 1943. All by myself, no buddies, no friends, no relatives. Bauman: And what was your first impression when you arrived? Sasser: Well it was all strange to me. I grew up in the Ozark Mountain region. And the desert was all new. However, I had seen part of it before. But it was exciting. I was on my own, no obligations to anybody. And I just took it as a great adventure. Bauman: And did you have any idea of what sort of work you would doing, or what was being done at Hanford? Sasser: Well I knew that I was signing on as a laborer. And that meant probably a pick and shovel. And that's what I started doing, digging ditches around Hanford. Bauman: And what sort of housing was available when you-- Sasser: We lived in the barracks, lived in the barracks and ate in the mess halls. The project had been going about six months when I arrived. And I was never a tent resident or anything. But they had the barracks going when I arrived. Bauman: So where did you start working? Where on site did you start working here? Sasser: In the town side of Hanford. And then after a few weeks I was transferred into what they called the 101 Building, or the 105 Craft, where they were fabricating the graphite to lay up the reactor cores for the D and F Reactors. Then a short time after I was transferred into there, they gave me a clerical rating and moving me into the superintendent's office as a clerk. And the work was a lot easier, and they paid me more money. Bauman: And how long did you work there? Sasser: Well let's see. I was in there a short time, a few months. And then I went out to another fabrication shop out at White Bluffs as a clerk. Then, when all of this was winding down, in the end of '44, I was transferred into Richland, where I worked for what they called special construction, where we was moving the government furniture into the government housing. Each piece was identified by a number. And you had to record the street address that you put that piece of furniture in. And each house was set up for a certain amount of furniture in a certain arrangement. And then after that finished I went back out to a place they call Leisure Spur, railroad siding, where they were handling excess material and shipping out the leftover materials that they had. And then in a few weeks their office ended up in Hanford. And I was in Hanford when they--the last group to move out of Hanford when they closed it up in the spring of '45. And lo, in the spring of '45 I had an offer to go to a job in operations. And then they released me from construction. And I went over into operations and moved into Richland in the spring of '45. And the organization that I was in eventually ended up in transportation. So I spent the rest of my working career in transportation and administrative work and in management. I spent 30 some years associated in the management of the plant bus operation. Bauman: Oh, okay. And so when did you retire? When did you-- Sasser: I retired after the 30th of November, 1988. I was at Hanford 45 years, two months, and three days. Bauman: So going back to when you first arrived, you talk about living in the barracks and eating in the mess hall, what was that experience like? And was there entertainment, things to do for fun? Sasser: Yes, they brought in name bands, name entertainers, movies. They built a movie theater. When I first arrived it was an outdoor theater. Then when it was in a tent, and then they got a theater built. Then they'd have dances on Saturday nights in building mess halls as the camp grew. And they'd get the mess hall built before they got the barracks occupied. And that's what they would use for the dance hall. They'd bring in bands, name bands, local bands, stuff like that. Hey, it was exciting, as far as I was concerned. I had one person to call me on an interview on what hardships that the Hanford workers went through. And I said what do you mean hardships? I had three hots and a cot. I had a good paying job that wasn't too hard. I was free to come and go as I pleased, and nobody was shooting at me. I've seen a lot of the articles. A lot of people complained about the dust storms. Yeah, they was dust storms. But I don't remember them as being all that terrible. Bauman: And so at what point--how long did you live in the barracks then? Sasser: I was out there about a year. I moved in when I first arrived on the 27th of September, got married on the 1st of September the next year. And then in a couple of weeks so I moved out of my barracks and we got a trailer over in Pasco. And then in the next spring, after it went into operation, we moved into Richland in the B house. Bauman: Okay. Oh, a B house? Sasser: Yeah. Bauman: What was Richland like as a community in those early years? Sasser: It was nice. At that time, at one time the average age of the tenants in Richland 35 years old. Everybody had kids. Great activities in school, scouting and church activity. I must have been pretty well satisfied with it. I stuck around a long time. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. You mentioned when you first started working that you were--you said White Bluffs at some point? Sasser: Well, I first started in Hanford. And then went through the 105--the 101 Building, which is 105 Craft, and then they had a metal fabricating plant out at old town side of White Bluffs. I went out there for a few weeks, a short time. And incidentally, the drug store in White Bluffs was still open, still operating when I was working out there. Because I was working the swing shift. And we'd go over there and buy stuff. Bauman: Were a lot of the residents still there at the time? Sasser: Well, I don't know where the guy was living. But he was still operating--the drugstore was still going. And that was in the spring of '44. Bauman: Were a lot of the other buildings still around on those town sites, or had they-- Sasser: Oh, they were all still there. I won't say all of them, but yeah, the main buildings were. There might have been some removed to make way for progress of building. But the main street of it was still pretty much intact. I think the old bank building is still standing. Bauman: Right, yeah. So what sort of work schedule did you have? How many days a week were you working, how many hours a week? Sasser: Well I'll tell you a story. When I first started to work our regular schedule was six ten-hour days. And then they came around on Saturday afternoon and if anyone wanted to work on Sunday, be down at the bus lot number one, catch the bus, go out to 200 West. There’ll be somebody there to show you what to do. Okay, I didn't have anything better to do. So I worked on Sunday. That went on for my first seven or eight weeks I was in Hanford. I worked a 70-hour week. So the first full paycheck that I got I looked at and I thinks oh my gosh, what's wrong here? $90? I only worked 70 hours. And I was getting $1 an hour. Bright kid--I could figure that out. So I went to my boss and I said hey, something's wrong here. They've paid me all of this money. I only worked 70 hours. And he said well, you worked Sunday, didn't you? I said yeah. He said well, that was double time. And what you worked over 40 hours was time and a half. It's your money. I wasn't used to that. Hey, someone told you they was going to pay you so much money, that's what you got. But it was a surprise to me. Bauman: So when did you find out what the purpose of Hanford was, about the atomic bomb? Sasser: When they announced it after they dropped the bomb. We was working in Richland then. And we got out in our vehicles and drove around town honking our horns. That's the way we celebrated here. Bauman: And then you said at some point you moved into transportation? Sasser: Well, when I went over into operations, it was handling the personal effects for people that was on a contract they're shipping in or out. And it was part of traffic. But then transportation absorbed traffic. And then I changed jobs within the organization and ended up in what was transportation then. And that's where I spent the rest of my working career. This was just a short time that I worked in traffic. It was combined with transportation. Later there was a function of it pulled back and put back in traffic. But then the part I was in stayed in transportation. Bauman: Oh, okay. And so what did your work in transportation involve? Sasser: Well I was an administrative clerk for a while. And then I went over with the bus and rail operation, where I was listed as a routing and scheduling clerk. And from that I went to a shift manager. And from that I went back under the administrative side as a staff assistant. Bauman: Obviously, Hanford was a very secret place, a lot of security involved. I wonder if you could talk about security or secrecy at all? Sasser: Well, yeah, you were warned just not to talk about it. And I'd only assumed got to be a condition. You never really thought about it one way or the other. You went through the security check. But I would never worked in a secure area, other than going in and out of say, the administration building. And then after, on lesser occasions, I went out to the production areas to check on transportation requirements. But I had a Q clearance all the time. But I never worked in any of the secluded areas. Bauman: I wonder, during all your years working at Hanford, there were any part of the jobs that you had that was the most challenging or anything that was the most rewarding about what you worked on? Sasser: Well that'd be hard to say. I think the most rewarding part that I had, I was privileged to work on the transportation to accommodate the visits of two Presidents to the Project. When Kennedy made his visit here, I worked on making up the schedules for transporting the people from the production areas to the N, where they were to attend the celebration. And then when Nixon made his appearance here, I was coordinating the transportation to transport the people from the Richland area out to the Battelle area, where he was making his presentation. Bauman: And were you present when both Presidents were here? Sasser: I got to go to the Kennedy presentation under the N. But during the Nixon I was involved in transportation, so I didn't get the opportunity to go out there. Bauman: Do you have any specific memories about when President Kennedy was here, about the day or anything about that? Sasser: Well one thing I remember about it--getting out of the traffic, getting on the way home, listening to him making his speech in Salt Lake City. And that's still on the road trying to get from 100-N back to town. Bauman: So it was really crowded. How did you feel about Hanford as a place to work? What was it like? Sasser: It was great. It afforded me the opportunity to make a worthwhile living, to raise my kids, send them to school. And the benefits were good, a nice retirement. And Hanford was very good to me. I never explored any possibility of leaving. Bauman: And you were there during World War II, the Cold War. You saw a lot of things happen, and also Hanford going from very early construction and production and then eventually a de-emphasis on production and starting to focus on cleanup. But I wonder how any of those changes in mission affected you at all, or what you thought of any. Sasser: Not really. I worked for six different contractors. But I stayed on basically the same job and a different contractor. But no, I don't—let’s see—I retired in '88. They had not started a lot. They had shut down 100-N. But there was not much of the cleanup work started at that time. It was still pretty much in production. But of course, there was the diversification. At one time GE had the entire contract. And then they split it up and whatnot and just melted into different companies. Instead of dealing with the chain of command or whatnot, you had cross-relations with different companies. So that was about the only thing that was different. Bauman: Were there any events or things that happened--special memories that really stand out in your mind during your years working at Hanford? Sasser: Well you may have read about where that Hanford workers contributed a day's pay to send a bomber on its way. Well, I participated in that. And I got to take a walking tour through that plane when it was on site, before it was turned over to the Air Force. They had it in Hanford. And so I walked through the Day's Pay. Bauman: That must have been a special feeling for you. Sasser: Well I think it was a unique experience. [VIDEO CUTS] Sasser: But there was probably so many of them, it's hard to— Bauman: I teach courses on recent American history, on World War II, on the Cold War, and of course most of my students were born after the Cold War ended. What would you like current young people and future generations to know, remember about what it was like to live at Hanford during World War II or the Cold War? Sasser: Well, I think there’s a lot of young people gave up their life and their time and whatnot to continue to maintain the freedom that we have. And what they have now has been earned by their predecessors, their parents or grandparents, like that. They shouldn’t take a lot of things for granted. Bauman: Is there anything I haven’t asked you about that you think is important to talk about, about your years there or that you’d like to talk about? Sasser: Well, I know that atomic energy and the atom bomb has come under a lot of criticism. But I think that we didn’t start the war, and by dropping the bomb on them, we ended it a lot sooner than it would have, and saved a lot of lives. So, I think the good exceeds the bad. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. Really appreciate it. Sasser: Well, I’m glad to do it. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:21:43 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 101 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1988 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. McQuinn Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Norvin Sasser Description An account of the resource An interview with Norvin Sasser conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08-23-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 101 Building Battelle Cold War F Reactor Hanford Kennedy Mountain Sun War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2746c4dd39426589c31531fc11589f22.JPG e139e6816defff74fa770953d936012b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8f930b67f07c50461f9388fd736c9fb9.mp4 656b1c721576a6c2dcc9d4c84d5a3b32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanis Daniels Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Olden Richmond Location The location of the interview Home of Olden Richmond (Pasco, WA) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vanis Daniels: My name is Vanis Daniels, II. And we’re here to interview Mr. Olden Richmond— [camera operator]: You can start over. Daniels: Yeah. Okay, my name is Vanis Daniels. We’re here to interview Mr. Olden Richmond for his information from Hanford and his contribution to World War II for our History—Triple-A-S, which is History and Recognition Committee. I’m from the History and Recognition Committee. And if Mr. Richmond doesn’t have anything, we would like to get started with the interview. Mr. Richmond, when did you arrive in the Tri-City area? Olden Richmond: 1943. Daniels: Approximately what month? Richmond: It must’ve been around—about April, somewhere around about April, something like that. Far as I can remember, it’s been so long. Daniels: Yeah, I understand. Did you come by yourself, or did someone come with you? Richmond: I had relatives come with me. Daniels: And could you give us their names, please? Richmond: Mr. Vanis Daniels— Daniels: That’s the number one. Richmond: And Edmon—wasn’t his Edmon? Daniels: Yes, mm-hmm. Richmond: Edmon Daniels. Daniels: And Mr. Edmon Daniels would be my great-uncle. Mr. Vanis Daniels would be my dad. And how old were you? Just say 29. Richmond: Oh, around 29, 30. Daniels: Right. Where did you live before you came to the Tri-Cities? Richmond: Kildare, Texas. Daniels: Okay. What kind of work did you do there? Richmond: Well, I did most all around. I farmed some, and I worked in the sawmill. That’s about all, the farming and working on the sawmill. Daniels: Okay. How did you hear about Hanford? Richmond: Well, I heard it on the radio. That they was going to put up a plant at Hanford, and so I checked with Mr. Daniels, my cousin, and got with him, and we made it up to come to Pasco. Daniels: Well, that would tell me why you decided to come to Hanford. How did you travel when you came here, how did you come? Richmond: Come on a plane. Daniels: On the train? Richmond: No, plane. Plane, caught the plane here. Okay? Daniels: Where was the first place you stayed after, when you got here? Where’d you live at? Richmond: Lived over here on Douglas in a trailer. Daniels: Did you ever stay in the barracks? Richmond: Yup, yup. We stayed in this trailer ‘til they got barracks fixed up for the laborers to go in. Daniels: Okay, now, was that for the laborers to go in, since everything was segregated out there, was those the black barracks they built for the black workers? Richmond: Well, it was mixed, yeah. It was made for the laborers, for everybody. Daniels: Oh, okay. And then how did they get you back and forth to work? Richmond: Bus. Daniels: And then what kind of work did you do, and the areas that you worked in? Richmond: Well, I’d clean up and digging the ditches and so on like that. Sometime, my foreman would put me with the concrete crew and I’d work with them. Daniels: And then what areas did you work at? Richmond: 200-West, and White Bluffs, we went all over, you know, cleaning up. Daniels: Did you ever work at B Reactor? Richmond: No, I don’t think so. Daniels: Did you work at C Reactor? Richmond: No. Daniels: Did you work at D and DR? Richmond: I think so. That was way out in—was that DR or—in White Bluffs, wasn’t it? Daniels: Yeah, D and DR is at White Bluffs, yeah. F and H, right. Richmond: It’s been so long, I can’t think of those things. [LAUGHTER] Daniels: Yeah, because—we may edit this part out, but from what I understand, you guys started at B Reactor. And you worked all the way through all the reactors, including, and the last reactor is, F. You had B, you had C, you had K-East, K-West, D, DR, H and F. Those were the reactors out there. Richmond: Yup. Daniels: And you guys were some of the first people to even go to, for instance, F Reactor, except the surveyors. My dad said when you guys got down there, wasn’t nobody there but the surveyors and a bunch of stakes. He said, because when they sent you guys over there, you was looking for a building. And there wasn’t no building nowhere to be found. They was wandering around, he said, took them almost all day to find it. Because they was looking—they knew approximately where it was, but they thought it was a building of some sort down there. And wasn’t nothing down there but a bunch of stakes down there. They had a truckload of stuff they had to unload. Richmond: That’s right, you’re right! Yup. Daniels: Okay. And who did you work for when you were doing this— Richmond: I worked for—what was that guy’s name I called? Daniels: Butler? Richmond: Butler. Daniels: Yeah, but what company was it? Was it DuPont--? Richmond: DuPont. Daniels: DuPont, okay. Richmond: DuPont. Daniels: Well, other than the fact that you came here because there were better wages— Richmond: Right. Daniels: --than you were making where you were, what did you like about working out there? Richmond: Well, I made more money. Came here to make a living and I had a family. So I liked it better here. Because I did fairly well when I come here. Daniels: Okay, now, from what I understand, from what you were making where you came from, and a full day’s work after you got here, you made almost as much money in one day as you did in a week back there. Richmond: Right, right, right. I worked a whole five days a week off the farm, $3.75. And I come here, they was paying a dollar an hour. That was with, running around when we was working out there for eight hours, and we run around maybe about three, pretty close to $500 a week. Daniels: Okay. How did they treat you out there? And you can go on and tell me about what we were talking about. Richmond: Yeah, well, I run into one redneck out there. I was down in the hole, cleaning out behind the ironworkers—you know what I’m talking about, when they burn those wires, you had to take it out, clean all of that, you know where they compose cement. So this one redneck he walked by me and looked down in the hole on me. He said, I should just kick your ass. And I looked up at him like that, and I said, no, you won’t kick my ass, I said. We will fight. And he started down in the hole, and I met him with the shovel. And he—the wire where the cement people were working at, just about tall as that fence there, and John Brown, he started to running and by the time he hit the ground, I was right on with him with that shovel. So Butler, he sees me running this guy, and he’s running off, he said, Olden, sir, what’s the matter? I said, this guy was saying he was going to kick my goddamn ass and I told him we were fighting, I told him, I say, we were fighting. So that settles that. So Butler fired him. Daniels: So by that, you’re saying that your supervision would stand up for his workers. Richmond: Right. Daniels: Whether they were black, white, blue or yellow. Richmond: He treated everybody the same. If you did wrong, you went. Daniels: Okay. What was the hardest thing about adjusting to being away from home and working out there at Hanford? Richmond: Well— Daniels: Getting used to, you had to get used to it. Richmond: I had to get used to it, yeah. From being away from home, you had to get used to it. And sooner or later, later on, I sent for my wife to come on and she went to work in the mess hall. So of course they had all the women, they had separate barracks. It had wire fences around it about like that tall at Charles Evans’ place there, and they wire all the way up. They’d let you up there at certain times and certain times you had to get out. You could go see—if you had a wife or something like that, you could go in there and stay until—well, you go around in there about 5:30, 6:00, what time you got through eating, then you go and stay with your wife until about 8:00, 9:00. Then they had guards at the gate. If you stayed too long, then he’s going to find you and get you out of there. Daniels: Oh, I see. One question that I’d like to ask is, what entertainment—after you was off work, like on weekends and things, what did you guys do? Richmond: Well, some gambled, some gambling and they had—what you call those things? A music box. They had a music box— Daniels: Jukebox. Richmond: --and a beer joint and everything in the recreation hall. That’s where we—some gambling, some running and drink, all stuff like that. Daniels: When you left off of the Hanford Site, where did you guys go for the weekend? Richmond: We come to here. We come to this side of the Tri-Cities. Daniels: Okay, and how long did you work out there at Hanford? Richmond: I worked up to ’50, 1950. Daniels: Okay. Do you remember the name of any of the black people you worked with? Richmond: Well, let me see. I worked with Cooper—you remember Cooper, don’t you? Daniels: Yes. Richmond: Well, I worked with your dad, too, and your uncle, Cracker. I worked with them. Daniels: Okay, that would be Mary and Barton, WL Daniels, Vanis Daniels. Richmond: We put in a railroad out there you know, remember? Daniels: Yes, yes. Richmond: And Willie Hicks, you know. You know Willie Hicks. I worked with him. Let me see, who else now? Russell, I worked with Russell out there. Daniels: That’s David Raines. Richmond: David Raines, yup. Well, I don’t know, it’s been quite a few. It don’t come to me right off. Daniels: Oh, well. If it comes to you, we can come back to it later. Do you have any pictures or any old pictures or anything like that from back then at Hanford? Richmond: No, I don’t have any pictures at all. Daniels: Well, do you know of any other people that we may talk to and get some information from? Richmond: Well, right off, I—it’s just like I was telling you about Reverend Barnes and Luzell Johnson, they probably can give you some information, too. And most of the guys that I could recommend, they gone, they’ve passed, they dead. So that’s the old-timers, you know. Daniels: Okay then. I’ve got a couple of more questions. Since you retired from Hanford, or left Hanford, how has life been in the Tri-Cities for you? Richmond: Well, it’s been real good, far as I’m concerned. About as well as you’d expect. Daniels: Oh, okay, okay. Well, could you tell me a little bit about your family, like how many kids you got, how many great-grandkids you got, great-grandkids, where they live in the Tri-Cities, whether they live in Pasco, Kennewick or Richland, and like that? Richmond: Well, John, Jr. he stays out there right across from K-Mart. And Stephanie, she stays in— Daniels: Now, John, Jr. is your grandson. Richmond: John, Jr. is my grandson and Stephanie is my granddaughter. And Sherry, she’s my granddaughter. And so, Melva, she’s my daughter. Daniels: Right, okay, and she lives in Pasco? Richmond: She lives on Sycamore over here in Pasco. Daniels: Okay. Richmond: So, let me see. I’m five generations of great-grandkids. So let me see. About six, I got six great-grandkids. And let me see, Stephanie—one, two, three, four—well, I got two grandkids in Flint, Michigan. [UNKNOWN] So I pretty well got around ten to twelve kids and grandkids and great-grandkids and all. Daniels: Okay, and you can tell me about your wives if you want to. If you don’t, that’s personal business. I mean, that’s your business. Richmond: About my first wife? Daniels: And your second one, too. Richmond: And my second one? Oh, I had a second wife, she was a doll. I love her right in the grave right now. She was the sweetest, sweetest thing. We never did have a fight. Never did have a fight. She always called me babe, someone, so-and-so, we’d have little spats or something, but we’d get together on it and everything. So that was the way it went. Yeah, I’d stand up there now sometime now and look at her picture and water run down my eyes. Daniels: I can imagine, I can imagine. Richmond: That’s the best woman I ever had. Daniels: And your first wife lived— Richmond: First wife, she lived in Texas. She in Flint, Michigan. So, well, we didn’t—she was nice. Daniels: Yeah. [VIDEO CUTS] Daniels: Okay, we’re going—when did your first wife come out? ’44? Richmond: I don’t remember what month she come. Daniels: What year? Richmond: She come out in the ‘40s. Daniels: Oh, okay. I think she came out in ’44. Richmond: ’44, somewhere in there. I don’t remember now. Daniels: And now, you know, you went out there and you went to work, and you understood that it was a great big defense job. And you was making more money than you’d ever made in your life, per hour. Do you have any idea, I mean not now, but back then, did you know—did you have any idea what you were making, what you were building, or anything? Richmond: No. No. Because we had FBIs, they’d come on through there, they walked all day long through there, asking questions. We did have no idea at all. We didn’t know what we doing. We don’t know what we were supposed to do, we were just there working, there to make a living. Daniels: In other words, they gave you an assignment and you did what you were supposed to do. Richmond: Yes. Gave me an assignment, I did what they told me to do. Daniels: Okay, did they do any explaining to the workers and things as to whether what they were doing was top secret and that what went on out there was supposed to stay out there, or did they just not tell you anything, or--? Richmond: Yeah, they said they didn’t want you to be talking. Daniels: Okay, at that time, did you have to have different clearances to work in different areas and certain parts of the buildings and things that you worked in? Richmond: Uh-huh. Daniels: And how hard was it for them to get a clearance for you? Richmond: Not too—it wasn’t hard. Daniels: In other words, you gave them the information as to where you were from and where you born, where you worked, where you had been in your life, and they were able to get the FBI to do some checking and you got your clearance from there. Okay, Mr. Richmond. That about concludes all of the questions that I have. Now, is there anything else you can think of or anything you’d like to tell us, or anything you’d like to say? Richmond: Well, that’s just about all I got for now. Daniels: Okay. Well, we thank you for the interview. And we can sit here and look at these pictures, because he’s going to cut that out. <a href="https://youtu.be/P1yJmnmnGgg">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2012 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1950 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Olden Richmond Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Migration Description An account of the resource Olden Richmond moved to Pasco, Washington in 1943 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/21/2001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb9924b95c500c11fbe13d70499530994.jpg c6a5a368983807b39e2eb55f5be4117b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89bbc7b903e7acf0ca7b8fbdd52459aa.mp4 afa17d712e9449df0e87752979c8f63a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Holm, Paula Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Holm_Paula Robert Bauman: Good to go? Camera man: I'm recording. Sound man: Yup, I’m recording too. Bauman: Okay. Can you hear me all right? Paula Holm: Yes. Bauman: Okay, great. So we could start maybe by having you say your name and then spell your last name for us. Holm: Okay. You want me to start right now? Bauman: Yeah, that's fine. Holm: Paula Mary Holm. My maiden name was Bruggemann. Do I need to spell that? Bauman: Yeah. That would be great. Holm: B-R-U-G-G-E-M-A-N-N. Bauman: And my name's Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on August 6th of 2014, and we're interviewing Paula Bruggemann Holm in Yakima, Washington. Holm: Mm-hm. Bauman: So let's start, if we could, if you could talk about your family a little bit, especially about your parents. And if you know when they came to the White Bluffs area and what brought them there? Holm: My dad was born in Germany, and he wanted to come to the States to be a farmhand, have a farm, so he chose to venture to New York and then come across the states, and he settled in the White Bluffs area and purchased the land, from--it was a German fellow by the name of Von Herbert. And that started the whole process. He was able to have enough funds to purchase the ranch. So that's what got it started. Bauman: Now, was he married already to your mother, or was he single when he came over? Holm: He was single, and my mother was working at the ranch with her sister and my grandma, my mother's mother. So they could all handle, between all of the family, they could handle the ranch hands, which I can't recall how many they had. But that long building that they called--The long building existing there now that's kind of disintegrated down to a few existing blocks was actually called the cook house. Didn't you have a different name for it? Bauman: Warehouse is the name of the building. Holm: Warehouse, no, that was the cook house, and my grandma was the chief cook and along with my mom and my mom's sister. It was just kind of a unique family situation, and it worked out real good. I was somewhere in the mix, but I wasn't really involved in the whole situation because I was two and a half, three years old--three years old when we had to leave. So it's real hard to go back that far. Bauman: Sure, yeah. Holm: I don't think you could do it yourself. Bauman: Right, so talk about your parents a little. What were your parents' names? Holm: My dad's name was Paul Ludwig. My brother's name is Ludwig. My mom's name was Mary. So I am Paula Mary Bruggemann--Bruggemann-Holm. Bauman: And so how did your parents meet then? Do you know? Holm: Well, just they had met there on the ranch because my dad needed a certain amount of help, and I guess that's how they had met. I don't really know all the details there, but my mother hadn't married yet, and my aunt was married, and my grandma was married, of course. So my mom and dad were married in, oh, let’s see, 1936 or so, and then my brother was born in '38, and I was born in 1940. Bauman: And what was your mom's maiden name? Holm: Mary Etta Hoard-- H-O-A-R-D. Bauman: And do you know where she was from originally? Holm: She was from, well, let's see now, oh, wow, the Portland area. Bauman: Okay. Holm: Anyway that area there somewhere, and that's all I can tell you about that situation. Bauman: Now I know you were very young when you left there. What do you know about, and I know most of this would be from your parents telling you or maybe your brother telling you, but what sort of crops were grown on your land there? Holm: Well, mostly soft fruit, the apricots and peaches and, and then my dad had sheep. I don't know if he had goats or not, but he had sheep, and quite a large amount of sheep because he had sheepherders help and dogs and everything that goes along with it. And one of the fellows that helped him sheep herd was the father of one of the fellows that lives here in the Moxee area, I believe it is. I don't have his name right now--Hernandez or--pardon? Martinez, and I've talked with him, but he's so bitter about this whole situation, it's hard to get a lot of information out of him. Because his dad worked with my dad, and he had such bitter memories that his son, which is the one living now, is so down on the situation. I've talked with him a couple times, and it's been very interesting. But it's just hard to talk about. Bauman: Sure. Holm: Especially for him when his dad was right there working with my dad. Bauman: Right. Holm: Oh, excuse me, I'll have to retrace on that. My mom was from the Galvin area in Centralia. Bauman: Oh, okay. Holm: And they had an old, old farmhouse out there. And that's where her best friends were living, and she still visited with them up until probably five years before she passed away. But it was kind of a large family, and she really enjoyed that area, a very nice, quiet area, and she went to school there, and graduated from high school. But then after that, I don't know. I don't really know, unless they maybe had gone to dance. You know, they had grange dances then. Maybe that's how she met my father, but I wouldn't be able to tell you. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I noticed in doing some research looking back there was a reference that—an old newspaper--that your mother in 1939, I think '40 was secretary of the grange in the area where the ranch was. Holm: Oh, uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, there was a picture, some picture, in a photo. I noticed that, which I wasn't aware of at all. And she belonged to some women's club. Bauman: So going back, I want to go back a little bit to your father again. And you mentioned that he came from Germany, and do you know was he looking for somewhere to farm, to buy some land? Holm: Yes. Bauman: Do you know why eastern Washington, how that happened or just there was land available? Holm: Well, I guess that would be the situation. He found the land here or in White Bluffs or whatever, and it was real appealing, and so I don't know how long his search went on. I don't know how long he tried to pursue the situation, but that's what he wanted to do was farming. Bauman: Now, I've been out to the site, and I've seen what's left of the building there, and I know there are also these large ceramic irrigation pipes there that you can still see parts of. Do you know terms of other outbuildings what else was there, besides the house and the cook house? Holm: No, just the pastures to keep the animals when they were supposed to be in. And I wasn't allowed to go out, because when you're so small, you're around the house most of the time. And my grandma was quite protective also. Helping my mom with the children, and cooking for 17, 18 people was not an easy job. So when my grandma helped and went shopping with us, she had a harness deal that she put on me because at that time when children were small, I guess that was the best way to be sure that they don't get away from you. Of course, nowadays are different. They don't take care of the children like they used to. Whatever the children do, that's fine--run away or run two blocks ahead of your family. It doesn't matter. But my grandma was pretty strict. So she wanted to know where we were at all times. [LAUGHTER] So I, at one time--I guess this is my brother's story. He was out in the fenced area, along the fenced area, and got kicked by one of the animals because he shouldn't have been there at that time. So but I'm sure that that was something that he had mentioned in the other interview, which was kind of funny. But other than that, it's just real hard to remember any of the--I don't even remember the house. Bauman: Sure. Holm: That's the thing that really gets to me. I just can't remember the house at all, where the living room was or where the bathroom was or nothing. It's just really--but when you go back in your life, I don't think you can remember when you were two and a half, three years old either. I have a slight vision of where on the surroundings, but that's about it. And then when we moved from that area and had to get out, I think that I do remember there was a substation at Hanford. That was some good friends of my folks', and I would stay there because they were busy moving. And I don't remember if they moved temporarily to Sunnyside or not, but they moved in this house. I'm sure it's down by the junior college, and I was playing on a lot. They had a house that they rented, and then there was a little house the set back on the lot, and I was playing there with the gang. And somebody was batting a baseball, and I was too close behind him, so he hit me in the head with the bat. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Oh, no. Holm: And that was like three years old, three and a half years old or whatever it was, and that's why I remember that house so much. But we were only there for a short while, while my dad and mom were trying to secure place to find. And they bought the house from Damon Canfield. He was not a senator, but somebody that was kind of involved in government things. And my dad always, of course, being in that nice, antique house out there, which was kind of actually European, more European than anything you could find here, he always, always said, oh, this house is just--it's just not a good house. He just like sold me a piece of junk. And he was always disappointed in that house, because it wasn't a quality house. So he probably wished he had his stone house back. Bauman: Right, right. So when he purchased the land, was the house already there--the house and the other buildings? Holm: On the ranch? Bauman: On the ranch, yes. Holm: Yes, it was a complete package. I don't believe he built anything or added on anything. He just took over, and that was that. Bauman: Mm-hm. So you mentioned your grandmother would take you--she had to go shopping. Holm: Yeah, she took me shopping. Bauman: Do you know where she would go? Holm: They had to go to Sunnyside. That was the only closest place with enough shopping, because they were kind of far away from--I mean, there's no corner grocery stores or anything like that that would suffice, because they had to buy quite a few things to feed that many people. And then when I went with my folks in their '38 Chevy pickup, is that correct? We always made a stop, and that's very interesting. I don't know if my brother remembers. I don't think I'm making this up. Sometimes I think I am, but we always made a stop along the road, along the highway somewhere, on the way to Sunnyside because there was this old hermit, and he had a name I think. But he thought so much of my mom, he would always say, oh, hi, Mary. And I would be sitting there on the seat, and we always stopped and talked to him. But he was an absolute hermit that was living out in the no-man's land or desert or whatever, and he had a full beard, just like Santa Claus. But he was so interesting to talk to, and they always wanted to stop and say hi to him or say hello. And that's about the most exciting thing I ever remember, because we never passed him up without speaking. But when I tell my brother about that, he--of course, a lot of times he stayed behind. He wasn't always--he was old enough that he could stay behind and not have to go on these shopping escapades or whatever. But other than that, there's nothing that is real interesting enough that I can think of. Bauman: So my sort of impression now is the ranch was fairly isolated, away from any of the towns. Holm: Yeah, uh-huh. Bauman: Do you know who some of the closest neighbors might have been? Did your parents ever talk about any of the families? Holm: Gilhuly. Gilhuly was--and I don't know what his first name was. He was pretty close there and his wife. In fact, I think he's still living today. They live right down across from St. Paul's School in quite a nice brick home. But his wife isn't real interested in this Hanford situation because she is the daughter-in-law, I guess you might say, and she wasn't there. It was just her father-in-law, I guess you might say. And there was Gary Wills--W-I-L-L-S--that was living in that area with his wife, because when they moved, they moved along the same time as my folks. And then they moved down to South Seventh Avenue, and they kept their friendship up until the time that they passed away. So they must've lived--I don't remember them from the ranch, but that's why they kept up the friendship because they were neighbors. And there's a few other names that I can't think of right now, but if they were mentioned, every once in a while, I recognize my folks mentioning that name. Bauman: Right. Holm: But I don't think that there is any other names that I can remember. I'd have to see a list. Bauman: Sure. So in 1943, of course, your parents and anyone living in that area there was notified that they had to leave. Holm: Uh-huh, my folks didn't really, I guess you might say, burden us children with that kind of a situation. Because they were quite private people anyway. And if they would have talked a lot about the situation, it would have been kind of a bad deal for us. So they just--Papi talked about it in the evening when we went to bed, because we went to bed like 7:30, eight o'clock, not 11 o'clock, like a lot of kids nowadays. And so they would talk among themselves but not involve us. Bauman: Sure, sure. Later, when you were older, grown up, did you ever talk with them about it, about having to leave? Holm: No, my dad, I think, would have had a hard time discussing that, or talking about. So they didn't, no, they didn’t really talk about it at all, that I can recall. But as children, or younger, you're not interested in that kind of a thing anyway, and then when you're older you think, hmm, boy, that was sure too bad that I wasn't better informed. So, no, they didn't—I can't ever remember them discussing it at all. Bauman: When we were talking earlier, you mentioned that you and brother, Donald Gary Peterson, back to the site a couple years ago or so. I wonder what that experience was like for you. Did it bring back any memories, or was it more sort of you learning more about this place? Holm: Well, yeah, learning more because my brother really hadn't talked about it very much either, so I'm kind learning, just from reading the articles that have come up during this whole research, which is very interesting. Bauman: So after your parents got the notice then had to leave, your family then moved to Sunnyside briefly. Is that-- Holm: Well, I don't know if they went to Sunnyside, and, if they did, it was probably just for like two or three weeks, because they would have been coming this way to look for a property. In fact, I may have stayed with that family. I stayed with my aunt in Portland, I know. They moved all separately, and my aunt moved to Portland to Sandy Boulevard. And my folks, in the process of moving, had sent me there with them, because it's hard to move with small children. And I think they used Mayflower Moving. I remember that huge Mayflower truck, and I spent time down there waiting for them to get their bills all gathered together, and we you have to go down the office and do this and do that. But I do remember it was Mayflower. And I stayed with my aunt like three or four days, at least, because they needed the help. And that would be when I was three plus. Bauman: And then eventually, your family moved to Yakima. Holm: Yeah, they found the house up here and came and got me, and we moved in, and that was that. It wasn't exactly the best situation because I think my dad had to build or add a little bit to the--there was just a garage, an old garage, shop area or something, and he had to build on a big platform for fruit. So it wasn't the situation he wanted, but that's the only thing he could find at the time. Bauman: So, the cook house is one of the few structures left, not just from your ranch, but from the whole area there, very few structures. Holm: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: Why do you think it'd be important for people to learn about these small towns and the farms and the people who lived out there before the war? Holm: Well, it's Gary and the other people involved kept calling it the warehouse, and I don't believe that that is right at all. Because my folks always stressed the point that they had a lot of an awful lot of stress or load on getting everybody fed at one time. And it was kind of like a longhouse, actually, with tables, of course, and it was quite a production to get everybody fed and back out helping. So I do believe that that's what it was called, but the other structures, I don't remember a whole lot about. But it's kind of nice to have everyone knows the different structures that were out there. But when we went out, even when I was younger, we went out to check on things, but there was really no interest because I didn't really know what was going on or what to think. I don't know, when you're small, you just don't realize what goes on with your parents and such. Bauman: Right. You told the story earlier, your brother, about getting kicked by an animal. Are there any other stories or things that he's told you that--he's a little bit older than you--that he remembered that-- Holm: No, we just were always playing out in the yard. And I can't remember now if there was a little bit of a fenced yard, but you just draw such a blank that it's real hard to tell you anything more because I just was so young. Bauman: Sure. You mentioned earlier that your father talked about that the house there being superior to-- Holm: Oh, yeah, it was a much better constructed and very solid house. Bauman: Did he talk much at all in other ways about the ranch, about the place at all or-- Holm: No, he couldn't. He just couldn't talk about it. So he didn't, I guess. That's what you might say. Just like all the other people. There isn't very many people that--they're probably passed away now, but there wasn't very many people that could talk about that because it was a horrid situation. That is that. Bauman: Well, I don't have any more questions for you. Is there anything else that you would like to say or something I haven't asked you about? Holm: No, I don't think so, not at this time. I just wish that my brother was here to maybe help you a little bit more. He could be here in a little while. Bauman: Well, hopefully we can arrange that. But I really appreciate your time. Holm: Yeah, I just wish that I could tell you more or come up with more, but I just like draw a blank. Bauman: This is very helpful and very interesting, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Holm: Mm-hmm. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 259 kbps Location The location of the interview Yakima, Washington Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:31 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1940-1943 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Herbert, Von Ludwig, Paul Ludwig, Bruggemann Hoard, Mary Etta Canfield, Damon Wills, Gary Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula Holm Description An account of the resource An interview with Paula Holm conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-6 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-09: Metadata v1 created – [RG] White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5e9efc1b839b0942a2fc6c28de0572a1.JPG e51ba630a75d56cfe24750c1cb18284e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0a6a3259a499c7fe1121af655576364b.mp4 dda71579ddc44f30b311d45592186704 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peggy Gardner Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: I have a little bit of boilerplate to begin with. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Peggy Gardner on May 2, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Peggy about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Peggy Gardner: Peggy Gardner. P-E-G-G-Y. G-A-R-D-N-E-R. Franklin: Great, thanks, Peggy. Tell me, how and why did you come to the area to work at the Hanford Site? 0:00:36 Gardner: My father was a real estate agent in the state of Indiana where we were born and raised. And his cousin lived here in Richland, Washington. And he said their real estate market’s doing wonderful. So my father took a leap of faith. And he was not a man of adventure. So he left my mother for a year and came out here, got his real estate license, and that’s the rest of the story, basically. They moved here, and I followed three years later. 0:01:07 Franklin: And how old were you when you moved here? Gardner: 23. Franklin: 23, oh, okay. So you were in Indiana while your parents relocated here, and then you moved to be closer to them? Gardner: Yes, I did. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:01:22 Gardner: My father took me on a statewide vacation with my mom and showed me the area, trying to convince me to live here. Franklin: And it seems like he was successful. Gardner: Oh, yes. And I never regretted it. Franklin: Really? What kind of attractions did the Hanford area have over Indiana? 0:01:42 Gardner: Well, not in particular the Hanford area at the time, because I wasn’t that familiar with it. But the state offered a lot more mountains and lakes and fishing and boating and just a lot of things I enjoyed doing. Plus the fact that where we live, the humidity’s so low. And where I’m from in Indiana, there’s very high humidity. So it was a big difference in the weather. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. It’s the hardest part about going east, back east, for me in the summer is the humidity. So how did you begin—well, so you moved when you were 23. Did you go to college? Gardner: I did, and I quit. Franklin: Okay. 0:02:23 Gardner: And when I quit, I got a job as a gas station attendant for Marathon Oil, and became a minor tune-up mechanic and drove the wrecker for three years. So that was where I got my mechanical aptitude, was within that job. But I guess I’ve had it all my life, because I’ve always— Franklin: So you were doing that in your teens and 20s then? Gardner: 19. Franklin: Okay. Driving a wreck—like a tow truck and--? 0:02:51 Gardner: Yes! A brand-new 1976 Chevy. And it had dollies on it. So, yeah, that was kind of fun. Franklin: Did you work with mostly men in that industry, I gather? Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:03:02 Franklin: Did you find kind of ready acceptance by your male colleagues, or did you—you know, how was it being a woman in a what I think people still today think of as a predominantly male job? Gardner: Yeah. I don’t remember any challenges. I grew up with brothers and grew up as an athlete, so I spent a lot of time around a lot of men, and was very comfortable and confident in that environment. Franklin: So did you find—you said you had this aptitude all your life. Did you find a real kind of calling in mechanics? Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:03:36 Franklin: And so how did you—you were working for Marathon Oil. How did you—when you moved here, did you go to work right away for Hanford, or how did you get involved out on the Site? Gardner: I wanted to have a career with a job that had paid for me to be able to enjoy life. And I applied at an apprenticeship program. That program then got me into Westinghouse. Because I was accepted in September of 1978, and it was a machinist program that I went into. So that’s when I began. And they accepted me, because they saw the aptitude that I had for that field. 0:04:23 Franklin: Okay. And was that kind of like a technical school kind of apprenticeship, or like on-the-job training? Were you immediately in the job, or was there like classroom training and things that went along with that? Gardner: It was both. It was a state-approved apprenticeship program. Instructed by a couple of supervisors and an estimator. They taught the classes right onsite, and we would go work eight hours and then go to class right there at the building. So that was real convenient. 0:04:59 Franklin: How long would the class be each day? Gardner: Probably two to three hours; I don’t quite recall. But there were three different subjects, ongoing that we were— Franklin: So you were pulling some pretty long days then. Gardner: Well, when you’re young, you don’t see it that way. [LAUGHTER] 0:05:15 Franklin: Right, right. Were there any other women in the program with you? Gardner: Not in the program, but prior to me, there was two other women. They both had quit and moved on to different positions. Then another lady was hired on when I was there and there were probably 35 men and then the two of us. So, yeah. Franklin: So still in a predominantly male workforce. Gardner: Yes. 0:05:44 Franklin: Did you find ready acceptance by your male colleagues there? Were there any struggles or issues that you had to deal with, being one of the only women in this field? Gardner: Yes, there were. It was kind of during the time when equal rights and the women’s movement and “I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar” was out. And there was a lot of resistancy by some of the older craftsmen. But on the other hand, I feel like I assimilated pretty well. And you learn to know who feels that way about you and just be thoughtful about that. Franklin: Sure. Are there any incidences that kind of ring out in your mind? Any experiences that you care to elaborate on? 0:06:35 Gardner: I’ll say two I have, just right off the top of my head. The first week I hired in, the lunchroom, we had union breaks. I went in and sat down, not thinking each chair was sacred, like in church when you go to church, you know people sit in their own pew or whatever. I sat down in a chair, and a gentleman came in and took me by the scruff of my coveralls and literally raised me up out of my chair and moved me over. And I thought, well, I guess I shouldn’t sit here! [LAUGHTER] But he was a real crotchety old fart, but I loved him to pieces. So we gained a really close friendship. But that was my first week. 0:07:19 Another interesting part of my career was, I was working on a project that another fellow machinist had been working on. And the setup was rather slow. So I was given an overtime job to continue on with his job. And I changed the setup and actually was able to complete the parts a lot quicker. And I got written up for it. For not going to my manager and asking to do that. So that was kind of hard. It hurt. And I didn’t make a stand for myself back then. I probably would now that I’m older. So that was an interesting situation. 0:08:07 Franklin: Yeah. I know in the early days of desegregating some of these jobs that bathroom access was often an issue for women. Were there fully functional women’s bathrooms at the time that you started, or were they still kind of figuring that out in the buildings? Gardner: Well, they did have restrooms. I mean, it had office space in the front of the machine shop, so there were restrooms for women. But they didn’t have the shower facilities. So for the first couple years, I’d shower in the men’s shower. The guys would just, one guy would stand outside the door and I would go in and shower. That’s sort of how we did it. But then the company built me my own shower, so that was nice to have, and not have to be in the men’s restroom. Franklin: With a guard. Yeah, I imagine, that must’ve been quite an interesting experience. So you said there was kind of the offices in the front of the house. Were the offices mostly staffed by stereotypical secretary positions—is that where most of the women were, was in the front offices of the buildings? 0:09:20 Gardner: The building itself housed different occupations, unrelated to the machine shop, but yet related to safety and the estimators and the purchasers. Yeah, so it was a combination of men and women; it wasn’t just administrative. Franklin: Did you hang out or kind of form friendships with the men you worked with that carried on after—like, did you hang out primarily with machinists, or were your friends not working at Hanford? Gardner: Not working at Hanford. I had a few friends that I would do things with. And coworkers also. But when you talk about my core group of friends, it would probably be I had maybe a couple, three that I was very close to throughout my career. And others that I was close to but wouldn’t see on a regular basis outside of the job. 0:10:20 Franklin: Okay. I guess, describe for me the day, a day in a machinist—what types of things would you be machining, what kind of tasks would you be asked to do, and what kinds of operations would you be supporting? Gardner: When I first hired in, the FFTF was being built. So we did a lot of support for that. Really interesting work. We worked a lot with stainless steel. The machine shop itself had full heat treat capabilities and also a grinding room, which was rather unique, from the standpoint, a lot of machine shops may just have machining of the parts. This machine shop had the full spectrum. Which, also the apprenticeship was—I was very blessed to be a part of that, to have such a large amount of knowledge within the trade that some people don’t get. But working for the FFTF and that project and the completion of that was very unique for me, being the only breeder reactor in the United States and being a part of that. 0:11:27 Franklin: Oh, wow. And you brought something that you made on your first day, correct? Gardner: Yeah, I did. My boss said, let’s take you to a machine—which I’d never been on any—and this was on a lathe. And he just gave me a blueprint, and was able to give me the tooling and tell me how to operate the machine. He walked away, and I did this little part. It’s just a practice piece; it doesn’t have any application to it. Franklin: Oh, okay. And how long would it take to construct something like that? Gardner: Oh, maybe an hour. Franklin: And would you start from a solid piece and then machine it down? Gardner: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gardner: Yeah. 0:12:13 Franklin: So what kind of parts were you making for the FFTF, what kinds of things did the machine shop create for the FFTF? Gardner: They have fuel pins within the FFTF and they would be bundled in these great big stainless tubes. So we would machine these stainless tubes. I don’t know how long they were, but maybe over six feet. Maybe less than that. And then inside would be small quarter-inch pins that would run the length of these inside. They would have several bundles inside this but also several parts inside the reactor. Yeah, that was just one piece, though. I mean, one part of it. We machined other things. I don’t have a good recall for all that. But it was very exciting to be a part of that. 0:13:06 Franklin: Did you need a special clearance to work in the machine shop or to be kind of manufacturing these reactor components? Gardner: Depended upon what we were machining. Some of the machinists had what’s called a Q clearance. That allowed them to be exposed to different information that we weren’t allowed to as just the regular clearance. So there were some that were able to machine more confidential things. But in general, on a day, we had a lot of certifications to the metal that went into the nuclear reactors for the fact that it had to have provisions, knowing that the metal needed to be a certain quality. So that was something that we would keep record of when we were given a job. We would document things and make sure it had the proper certifications from the manufacturer of the metal. 0:14:05 Franklin: Did that require you to test the metals at all for strength and for the amounts of various—if it was a composite, the amounts of its components? Gardner: Well, there was metal testing onsite. There were places that we could take metal for its tensile strength. And to make sure, if it didn’t have any stamped certification on it, we could use some chemicals to find out exactly what’s in it, and to know that the material is what we wanted. 0:14:38 Franklin: Interesting. And so eventually, the FFTF kind of was sidelined, right, as—and so I assume that you weren’t then working on fuel pins or the bundles anymore. So what did you do after the FFTF had ceased operations? Gardner: Well, when we moved from the nuclear to the cleanup mission, we supported that in different ways. But they actually closed our machine shop down and moved the machine shop out to the 200 Area. Franklin: Sorry, so where was the machine shop before that? 0:15:18 Gardner: In the 300 Area. Franklin: 300 Area, okay. Gardner: 328 Building. So, I’m going to guess, for 14 years I was there. And then the company—that was during the time when there were many contractors bidding for the job, so instead of it just being Westinghouse, there were three main contractors. UNC was another one; Rockwell. Then they started having more people come in and the contracting work out became a popular thing, the transition in our way of doing business. Not just with Hanford, but throughout the United States. So we moved to the 200 Area and Kaiser took over part of that. I was only out there for two years supporting the cleanup mission, but this is when the tanks were being discovered that some weren’t even marked where they were on the ground. I really don’t have a lot of knowledge about what all went on, other than they were digging up a lot of things, finding ways to pay for the area. 0:16:28 Franklin: Right, yeah, finding some history. Nice. I’m wondering if you could share your opinion on what that was like, to go from a single contractor to multi-contractor, and if you saw that as a beneficial change for Hanford operations, or—basically, how that affected you and how that affected worker morale and the scope of work that you were being asked to do. 0:16:55 Gardner: I just really have one thought on that when you asked me, and that is, because the history and the value of the employees that were there, some, not from conception, but there for a very long time that had a lot more knowledge—once they were bringing several contractors in, people would come in without any history or background knowledge. I felt that was a real critical part or piece that needed to stay consistent for the continuity of understanding the dangers or the concerns. It was taken more serious, from my standpoint, of those that had been there for a long time or had more history with the Area. So contracting work out and bringing new contractors or several contractors in, I felt, was a safety issue. 0:17:45 Franklin: Oh, interesting. Okay. That’s a really interesting point. Did you find that each contractor had its own kind of culture or corporate culture? And was it easy for employees of different contractors to work together? Gardner: There was some competition, I think, when I initially hired in between the contractors. But there were only three at that time. I guess not. I didn’t pay that close attention. 0:18:16 Franklin: Okay. And so when you got moved out to the 200 Area, what kinds of—you’re obviously not going to be manufacturing fuel pellets—or fuel rods and things. So what kind of work were you doing out there to support cleanup? Like, what kinds of things were you machining out there? Gardner: There would be tools that needed to be made, specific tools, that were unique to cleanup. So we would be manufacturing those. Franklin: Can you give me an example of a tool that’s unique to cleanup? Gardner: I can’t. [LAUGHTER] I can’t even remember those things. 0: 18:50 Franklin: Oh, okay. And how long did you stay out in the 200 Area? Gardner: Probably a year-and-a-half. Franklin: Okay. And was it the same kind of atmosphere in the 200 Area that you’d had in the 300 Area? Or was it changed? 0:19:08 Gardner: Well, the R&D world that we were in with the nuclear industry—it was just a lot different in the culture and the different things we fabricated. So when we changed out to the 200 Area, it was a big shock of having to do different types of work. Probably less R&D than it was when I worked in the 300 Area. R&D is research and development, where sometimes we do one or two things, or sometimes we just manufacture something or fabricate something to see if it’s going to work, just as a test piece. Franklin: A little more experimental. Gardner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Franklin: Like, intuitive than— 0:19:59 Gardner: But the culture was very different out in the 200 Area. The buildings were old. The building I moved into was not insulated. I had to wear—they gave us all Carhartts to wear in the wintertime. Pipes froze in the restroom. And snakes—I had a snake pass me in the building. Mice were in my coverall bag. So it just really wasn’t an environment I wanted to continue my work in. So I ended up quitting and moving over to Battelle. That was one of the best moves. I absolutely loved Westinghouse, but when they moved us out in the 200 Area, I felt like I could make a better change. So I quit and went to Battelle and worked in the environmental industry there. Franklin: Okay, and what kinds of work did you—were you still a machinist then in the environmental— Gardner: Mm-hmm, yes. Franklin: And how would you support—that seems like kind of a different mission change from what you’d be machining. So how did you support the environmental research group? 0:21:04 Gardner: I’ll just give you one example of some parts that I was working on. Battelle is worldwide in how they work with the business. There was a job that I was working on that was going to go on an airplane, filtering the air in the atmosphere in Mexico. Because the pollution was so bad there. So that was interesting to know, you know, that this job I was working on was going to be attached to an airplane that was going to be flying around Mexico. I think Mexico City, actually. We also did animal research. One example of that is when the checks that we write, everyday checks from our checkbook that has the carbon copy, when we would utilize those carbon copies—when they first were manufactured, the workers that were making these pieces of paper, or making the paper to go in our checkbooks were getting ill. So they exposed laboratory animals to this paper until they were healthy; they were not having any side effects from being around any of the particulates caused from the manufacturing. So that was one of the first projects that I worked on. I literally made, they’re called plethysmographs. They were Plexiglas tubes where they housed the mice to expose them to these things. It was hard for me, because I’m an animal lover. So that was a hard job, but it was interesting to see the application of it for the health of the people in the industry. 0:22:51 Franklin: Mm. Do you know what kinds of data was gathered from that research? Did there end up being a link between the illness and the carbon paper? Gardner: Yes, well, they already knew there was an illness just from the people that were manufacturing it originally. So all I know is they decided to change whatever went into the paper, and that did have a good impact. 0:23:15 Franklin: Oh, that’s good. So how long did you work for Battelle in the environmental research group? Gardner: For 16 years. Franklin: Oh, for 16 years. And so from—you said you went out there in ’95, and then 16 years, so 2011, or about 2010? And did you retire then— Gardner: Mm-hmm, I did. 0:23:40 Franklin: Okay. And what have you been doing—have you still been involved in the machinist industry since retirement, or how have you been keeping busy? Gardner: Well, I pretty much put my tools away. But I’m still a handywoman; I like to do projects around the house and help people with projects that need some repairs. My first year, I just enjoyed. I took a job out at Canyon Lakes golf course and worked as just a helper at a catering business there. A few times, drove the beverage cart which was lots of fun. I was raised as a golfer. That was fun for me. So just enjoying my life and making it a choice every day to explore something that I haven’t done and wasn’t able to do since I had a full-time job. 0:24:32 Franklin: Sure. Now, your bio here that Jillian took says that you went to HAMMER and were a teacher for trainings on MSDS work conditions safety and health concerns? Gardner: Yeah, for a short time, a couple years. So maybe two or three times a year, I would work at HAMMER for a week at a time. Franklin: Was that after you retired? Gardner: No, it was during the time. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:24:57 Gardner: I actually was working at Westinghouse, and I think I continued HAMMER once, maybe, when I was at Battelle; I can’t really recall if I did or not. But it was before the new facility was built, so we were over on George Washington Way. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. That makes sense. Well, that’s great. I just have a couple more questions. Are there any ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work as a machinist? Gardner: In what way? 0:25:37 Franklin: Oh, well, I don’t know. Is there any times in which, say, an element of security or secrecy stopped you from working on a project, or you could only work on specific pieces on it because of not enough clearance or something like that? Did you ever work on a project that was very secret or kind of a need-to-know basis? Gardner: I didn’t, but there were machinists that did. You’re right, it is called a need-to-know. I remember one time they put big barriers up around the Project just so it was in compliance for the security of machining it. So, yeah, that has been a part of my career. But I wasn’t a person on the job. 0:26:27 Franklin: Okay. And was it challenging to—because you moved here during the Cold War and then—although it seems that most of your machine work was for peaceful reactors, you know, the majority of reactors at Hanford were producing plutonium which was being used for the US nuclear weapons stockpile. Did you ever feel unsure or unsafe about working at Hanford, either in a safety sense or in a larger, kind of geopolitical sense, especially as tensions were heating up in the 1980s? 0:27:10 Gardner: Not in the geopolitical sense, but as far as some of the chemicals and materials that I machined, a few years after becoming a machinist, they became classified as carcinogens. The PPE, the protective equipment that we wore, would be required or some of the chemicals were actually pulled off the shelf. So, yeah, that was a concern, because I think the invincible feeling of being young, you know. You think everything’s going to be safe working for large companies like that, and they wouldn’t expose us to things that are unsafe. But that’s not true. They did the best they could, and as things progressed and our health concerns were addressed, then, you know, they would see that some of those things needed to be looked at differently. So the government was able to classify things as carcinogens. And companies could no longer use those. Franklin: Interesting. And did that impact your work in any way? Or did you feel pretty comfortable with the measures that were addressed? 0:28:21 Gardner: I think there was resistancy because some of the materials we could only machine well with certain chemicals. When they pulled those off, we had to really be creative to find something that was just as good or settle for something that wasn’t as good and try to make the parts as well as we could. But I knew that there were health effects, even throughout my career, in my own body that I had to address from being exposed to things. And I was able to, and got it taken care of. Franklin: Oh, that’s good. So kind of a balance, then, between doing a job in the most effective way, but also making sure that it’s safe in terms of having your worker safety protected. Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:29:15 Franklin: Well, great, and my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War and afterwards during cleanup? Gardner: I feel that our government was doing a wonderful job keeping our nation safe, and that was their priority in creating Hanford, protecting us. The residual, while being, it is very nasty and the ramifications of all the buried things is a very difficult piece, the reasons behind it were very genuine and ultimately for our country. Franklin: Hmm. Okay, great. Did you want to show any of the things that you brought with you? Gardner: I don’t. Franklin: Okay, not a problem. Well, maybe if they’re—if you wouldn’t mind, maybe we could take them and digitize some of them and then we’ll put them with your interview when it goes online and post the pictures. Gardner: Yes, I brought newspapers that would come out monthly. I’m not certain if it was monthly or weekly, from Westinghouse. And they’re fun to look back, probably more for me. But, on the other hand, yes, that’d be great if you could digitize it. Franklin: Great, well, thank you so much, Peggy, I really appreciate it. Gardner: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:30:42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9982kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Westinghouse 200 Area Battelle HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 26 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peggy Gardner Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Peggy Gardner relocated to the Hanford area when she followed her parents and started out working as a gas station attendant/mechanic/wrecker driver before accepting a machinist position with Westinghouse. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/02/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F59bedcbd5706bab0fb90f448773e2f8f.jpg 47a083b5b5bc2d33fd1d1c3212976e2d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe07a220c8f43ba814c7597fe2fd7b887.mp4 a0765f64d0e3a05cd268b608370736cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jackson. Pete Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Jackson_Pete Woman One: Get them all fixed and I’ll submit them, and they would get paid to run. Man one: And we're about to roll now. Okay. Whenever you are ready. Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I think we're ready to get started. Pete Jackson: Okay. Bauman: So if we could start first by just having you say your name and spell it for us. Jackson: My name is Pete Jackson, J-A-C-K-S-O-N. Bauman: Great. Thank you. My name is Robert Bauman. Today's date is October 30th of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you talk about how you came here, what brought you to Hanford, and when you arrived. Jackson: Well, I came to Hanford after living and growing up in Spokane, and serving in the Navy. I came here February 7, 1951. Bauman: And what brought you here? Why did you—what brought you to Hanford? Jackson: Oh, the interviews that we had had at WSU, WSC at that time. Bauman: So you were a student at Washington State College? Jackson: Yes. Bauman: And what were you majoring in? Jackson: Major was mechanical engineering. Bauman: Okay. And so what sort of job did you have, then, once you arrived in 1951? Jackson: Well, I didn't have a clearance. So to wait for the Q clearance took a while. And I was working in a program where they were updating the standards that they use. Down in the old 762 Building. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And standards for a what? What sort of standards were they? Jackson: Oh, standards on how to do various and sundry tasks. I guess that'd be the best way to put it. Bauman: Did you know much about Hanford before you came here? Jackson: Oh, not much. You know, I grew up in Spokane, so we were familiar with Hanford. And I spent time in Japan when I was there with the Navy, and did get in and saw the destruction in Nagasaki, which was tremendous. And then after the Navy let me go, I decided to come to WSU and to take up studies. Bauman: Mm-hm. What were your first impressions of the area, here, when you arrived? Jackson: [LAUGHTER] Sagebrush, sand, and lots of wind. But I can't remember the facility--I think it was about 7,000 people. But it was interesting. Bauman: What sort of housing did you have when you first arrived? Jackson: Well, the housing was dormitory, and I lived in M2, which we called the old men's society. And later, other tech grads were in W21, which was down in the women's section of the dorms on Lee and Stevens, I think it is. Where Albertson's sits right now. Bauman: So did you know some other people here when you arrived? Jackson: I knew a few, yes. Bauman: Other people from WSU? Jackson: Yes, yes. Bauman: And then so how long did you stay in the dorms? Jackson: Well, they opened up the Bower Day housing on Jadwin. And I made myself unpopular with the guy who was renting these, because they wouldn't rent them to any single people. And so after months of talking to him, they finally decided, well, we'll open it up to single people. So four of us guys went into one down there on 1766 Jadwin. And we enjoyed that life much better, because we didn't have to eat out every night, and that sort of thing. We could do some of our own cooking, and see what we wanted to do, and it was good companionship. These were four engineers. Bauman: Yeah. And how long were you in the Bower Day home, then? Jackson: Huh. Let's see, I've got to try and remember that. Probably until about 1953. It might have been more than that. I don't recall exactly how long it was. Bauman: And what was Richland like at the time, as a community? Jackson: Well, it was just a little small town. There wasn't much of anything to do except work, work, work. And we did a lot of running around, going to Seattle to plays, and stuff like this. And I got into the Desert Ski Club. I was a charter member of that organization, and helped it get established. We had the dorm club, and we had another club called Racketeers. Then, let's see. I got married in 1954--no, '56, and moved into a little B house. Bauman: And so who were the other gentlemen that you shared the Bower Day home with, do you know? Jackson: Okay, one was Corwin Bonham, who was a friend from WSU. Let's see. There was a little Japanese fellow, and what was his name? I can't recall. Bauman: That's all right. Jackson: And Hal Stievers was the third one. And that's about it. Dick Asai was the Japanese fellow. Bauman: Hmm. So you mentioned the clubs, the ski club, and-- Jackson: Yes. Bauman: So were those sort of the primary ways of entertainment? Jackson: Yeah, right. The dorm club was people who lived in the dorms, and we’d would get together and have dances, and parties, and out-of-town escapes, and what-have-you like that, whereas the ski club was primarily for skiing. The most local spot was Spout Springs down here. We also went to others around in the mountains, and even down as far as Sun Valley. Bauman: So how did you and your wife meet, then? Jackson: Well, she was also working here, and was in the dorm. So, she was a secretary. Bauman: So you mentioned your first job when you came in 1951, before you got your clearance, was updating standards. Once you got your clearance, then, where did you go from there? Jackson: Oh, they sent me out to a mechanical development group in what they called it that time White Bluffs. And White Bluffs was just some buildings they had thrown together. The only real building there, I think, is a high school which is still there. And we did mechanical development for the 100 Area reactors. Bauman: So could you describe that a little bit? By mechanical development, sort of what sort of task would that include? Jackson: Yeah, sure. Well, you know these reactors were not all that old at that time, and so we kept upgrading them with different projects of sorts to make them better, more reliable, safer. And also, one great big job was project 558, I think, was the number of it. And that was to upgrade the power level, which originally was something like 165 megawatts. And when we got through with it, some of the reactors were running over 3,000. So we upped the production substantially by that project, which includes revamping a lot of the components. We put more water through the reactors, and we took—well they have safety systems. The first safety system was horizontal rods, and we had to replace all the horizontal rods, because they went into a thimble through the graphite pile. And so in the process then, we had to take the thimble out, because otherwise they would probably melt down. And then we had to have a seal on these tubes that we put in, and instead of having a round tube, we had an oblong tube. So it would roll along, because the graphite had grown considerably, and to pass through the reactor was getting to the point where some of those rods were difficult to get through. I think there were--I think maybe nine control rods in the pile. I think that was the number. And then we replaced the thimbles that were in the second safety system, which was the vertical safety rods. And they were just a boron poison rod that would drop in from the vertical overhead. And they would just freely drop. And they also had thimbles which had to be removed. These were just an aluminum tube, vertical in the reactor core. And we made, then--because here, we had to move that in the atmosphere as the reactor would escape to the building—we had to make seals on those and I worked a lot on the seals for the vertical safety rods to seal the atmosphere in the reactor from the atmosphere in the building. And there were--I can't remember the number of those—probably some 20 or something like that. And we made seals that would seal the rod even as it fell. And then the third safety system was we built a hopper that would sit around this vertical rod, and it contained boron containing steel balls, like ball bearings. And if something went that far to where you had to drop that, the third safety system was kind of the last. We'd drop those balls into the carbon core. Which, as you can imagine, getting those out was a big chore. And we did work on that process some. C Reactor, when they built that one, they put valves on the bottom of the vertical safety rod openings, so that they could vacuum—I think it was vacuum—the darn balls out of it. They had a vacuum system to vacuum them out, and then a ball separator to catch the real hot ones. Because if—the core was built by pieces of graphite, 4 and 3/8 I think they were, square with this hole in them. And the hole would be for the process tubes. And then the holes coming in from the side were for the horizontal safety rods, and then they had holes down through for verticals, which was for the vertical rods. And the pieces of graphite had one corner cut off, I think it was. And if you dropped the balls into that graphite chamber, some of them would get back into that thing, and maybe the next time you had to vacuum them out, they would just be screaming hot radioactively. So we built a ball separator that you could run these millions of balls through and kick out the hot ones. So there was a lot of work on that one. Bauman: Yeah, sounds like it. Jackson: It was a real big project. They did reactor at a time through B, D, F, DR, H, and I think maybe some with C. Bauman: Hmm. So did you work out at all those different reactors, then, during that process? Jackson: Yeah, right. Well, yes. We worked on each individual reactor, but we had offices--well, it started out in White Bluffs, and then they built a new building in D, 1703 D. We had offices there. Bauman: So when you were doing this work at the reactor, did you have to wear special equipment, safety equipment? Jackson: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Bauman: What sorts of things did you have to wear? Jackson: Well, you took off your clothes, your outer clothes, and hang them up. Then you'd put on two pair of white coveralls. You'd put on shoe covers, probably a couple pair of them. And if there was to be anything wet, you'd put rubbers on over the top of that. Then you'd put on a hood fastened under your chin. So we were pretty well covered up, of course with gloves, too—cloth gloves if it was dry work, and rubber gloves over them if it was anything to do with wet. Bauman: How long of a process was of that? Did that take a little while to-- Jackson: To get dressed? Bauman: --get dressed, and undressed then when you were done? Jackson: Well, it would be the same thing as you getting out there and taking off your clothes and putting on a pair of coveralls. Bauman: Yeah. And I assume you had a dosimeter or something along those lines. Jackson: Oh, yeah. We always had dosimeters. Bauman: Mm-hm. Was there ever any time where you or someone else you were working with had exposure above the rates that were recommended? Jackson: Well, I'm sure there were. I don't remember what my accumulated rate of radiation was. Bauman: Mm-hm. And so how long did you work on that project, then, at the different reactors? How long? Jackson: Well, I worked on that 100 Area reactors for probably ten, 12 years. There were different projects for this 558 program, and we did the same changes in all of the reactors. Bauman: And so what did you do, then? What sort of work did you do once you were finished with that, after the ten to 12 years? Jackson: Well, I still continued doing various work in the reactor areas, and one of the jobs I had was examining, building, and making the equipment to examine the process tubes. And they would take the process tube out of the reactor and push it out. And it would fall into the basin behind, and we would cut it up into sections. And one little job it was to take the section of this round tube—now it's a round tube, and it has two tracks kind of on the bottom, which holds the front of the uranium capsule so water can flow all the way around it. And I made equipment that would take that process tube and cut it in half, so that you'd just run it through this saw. And then you could lay it down flat, and the area had two curved sections, and then you could examine that. And they did that in the hot cells, in probably the 327 building. So that was some of it. There were other modifications made to the reactors that we were all part of, and we built a lot of underwater examination equipment. And then we would also build equipment to examine the vertical holes that the vertical safety rods operated in. We'd go down there with a TV camera, and record what that was, so we could see what the interior of the unit looked like. And I think we did it also with the horizontal rods. But we did a lot of that. I did a lot of work on the process tubes for B, D, and F, DR, and H. And C were all made of aluminum. And we got into KE and KW, and those process tubes were fabricated of zirconium. So we wanted to examine them, too, to see how they were holding up. And every once in a while, you would get a rupture in this tube, because the uranium slug, as we called it, might open up to the water, and then you'd have a reaction there, and it'd even tend to burn holes through the process tubes. So this examination included that sort of thing to see what those would look like down through the core of the reactor. Bauman: Wow, hmm. Also, I understand you also worked at PRTR, an N Reactor at some point, as well? Jackson: Yeah. I moved into 300 Area, and worked on the development of some of that stuff for PRTR, some of the equipment, and what-have-you, like that. I can't remember exactly what all the equipment was. And then we had the examination from PRTR also. PRTR was a water-moderated, heavy-water reactor. Bauman: And then how about N reactor? Jackson: I did not work on anything really associated with N-- Bauman: Oh. Jackson: --except the development of the process tubing for it. And the process tubing was a--oh, I think it was probably about a 3-inch tube of zirconium. And it had about a quarter of an inch wall, if I recall. And we did a lot of testing prior to the startup of the N reactor, wherein we wanted to see what kind of temperature from pressure would react on this. Because for N reactor, the pressure was something like 2,000, 2,500 PSI, and 600 degrees Fahrenheit. So that ran very hot. We examined that tubing, also, when we built the equipment for doing that, and really made various and sundry tests, and then built up a facility for evaluating sections of the new tube to see that at what pressure would it break at what temperature. And I would put these in a special oven that we had in sort of a bomb-proof building. And I put them in a furnace, and I had enclosures on both ends of this tubing, and we could pressurize that tubing up to, oh, in excess of 20,000 PSI, and actually rupture them under conditions of 600 degrees Fahrenheit. And I had that down at 314 Building. And we would do the testing out just through the concrete block wall of this building. And when that thing went off, of course the safety engineer always called me when he heard the boom and the shake. And so he knew when we were doing this, and he was up in—I can't remember the number of that building. But it was right down the main drag in 300 from the vehicle gate. So we would burst this tubing, and sometimes we would put a slot in it, machined slot, so we could see how it burst under condition of wear. And that was a pretty interesting thing, because when it went off, it was a loud bang, like a stick of dynamite going off. And at one time there was a couple of people walking down the road when it went off right beside the road. And all of a sudden this big old capsule went flying up in the air several feet, and then lit down on the wet ground in front of them, and sizzled, and then everything like that. They were real surprised, were these guys. We used that facility for quite some time, and then it was taken by the service. But it was used for all the process tubing in N. I assume it was used in K, also. K east and west. Bauman: So you had a lot of different, very interesting jobs in Hanford. Several. Jackson: Yeah. That's why the job was very interesting, because you'd go from one interesting task to another interesting task, and they'd be, perhaps, totally different. And we would work through the design of the apparatus to run that, and then through the installation thereof, and the installation in the reactor, and all. So I worked in C Reactor for that, and the Ks. We had a lot of interesting experiences in K Reactor, because it was also a high-pressure thing. Not as high as N, but it was recirculating--well, maybe it wasn't. No, it was not recirculating the water. The water went right straight through. Bauman: Is there anything about that work, that K Reactor that really stands out in your mind, anything particular? Jackson: Well, I did burst testing on that tubing, also. And this tube was--oh, I think it was about an inch and a half in diameter of zirconium, and we would burst those in the same facility. I remember one time, a failure of the fuel element caused a lot of problems. And I don't remember what the heck we did. We had to get this stuff out. Oh, I can't remember what it was. But we got some farmer with some farm equipment, and used his farm equipment to get this thing out of the reactor. I can't quite remember what it all was. But it was interesting. Because there was something very interesting going on. And at this same test facility that I had in H Area, we worked hand in hand with the people from KAPL—Knolls Atomic Power Labs, in Schenectady—for the development of the fuel rods for the Naval submarines. So we did a lot of work for that, and worked hand in hand with these engineers from KAPL. And they kind of thought they were in charge of the thing, and they'd call up and say, well, you've got to shut your reactor down. And I says, I can't shut my reactor down. We'll have to schedule that. So we'd work through a schedule when we would have it shut down, and then they would come out, and we would take the fuel elements out of the test pile. And this was a test hole, went through—horizontally through the center of H Reactor, and ran at about 600 degrees Fahrenheit and 2,250 PSI pressure. So that was a lot of equipment that took a lot of specialized engineering. Bauman: Of the many different projects you worked on in Hanford, were there some, or one, that were sort of the most rewarding to you, that you really enjoyed the most? And maybe something that was the most challenging? Jackson: Well, certainly they were all challenging. And I enjoyed them, because it was a task that you individually had. There might be another engineer working with you, but generally it was just a single engineer working on a particular. But the 558 project was a large, large group of people working in the development, and the design, and the whole works. So we worked with all these other people, also, to accomplish that. Bauman: So how long in total did you work at Hanford? When did you retire? Jackson: 38 years. I started on the 7th of February in 1951, and I retired, I think it was the end of August in '88. Bauman: I imagine there are a lot of changes that you saw take place over that time. Jackson: Oh, definitely, definitely. Bauman: Even in just how things were done, right? Jackson: Yeah. And after working in the 100 Areas directly, then I moved into the mechanical development group in the 300 Area, which was project engineering. So we worked on a lot of the projects for the various pieces of equipment that would be put in here, there, and elsewhere. I worked at the 100 Areas, PRTR, FFTF, HSHTSF, I think it was. And all these, and they all had specialized equipment. So there was always a different type of job. It was very challenging. People had never done this sort of task before. So we had pretty much a free rein in how we could do it. The only stipulation was, if something went wrong, don't repeat it. Bauman: Technology must have changed quite a bit from 1951 to 1988 also. Jackson: Oh, definitely. Yeah. And the last bit of the work in project engineering was in a lot of the different buildings, building of facilities to test different pieces of equipment, and all. And we had some of those. Oh, I can't remember exactly how old it was. I remember building the firehouse in the K Area, I think it was. And then I helped rebuild the steam plant in the 300 Area. That was an interesting job, because we had a big steam plant to make steam to heat the whole area and what-have-you, the 300 Area. And they went from oil—oh, they went from oil to coal. I think that was it. Or did they go from coal to oil? Well, anyway, we replaced the oil system of heating the furnace, I guess you'd call it, to using coal. And so coal spontaneously combusts. And one night I was called out because the coal hoppers were up on the top of the steam plant, and the coal would go down into it. I was called out because there was fires in the passageway that was providing the coal for the fire. And it was in a vertical pipe. And I couldn't figure that one out, so I came up with the idea to attach hoses to a big storage container that they had out at 327 Building which contained argon. And we used the argon gas to put it into this fire, and it being totally inert, as soon as it hit the fire, it put it out. That was a very interesting one, and that took place very rapidly after we got the argon into the furnace. That really took it out. So we saved the day that day. Bauman: I want to ask you about, President Kennedy visited Hanford in 1963, at the start of the N Reactor. I wondered if you were there, do you have memories of that? Jackson: I think I was there. I think so. It was outside, and I think Ronald Reagan was there also. I'm not sure. I remember seeing Ronald Reagan, and probably Kennedy also. Bauman: From your time working at Hanford, are there any events or incidents that sort of stand out in your mind? Things that happened that were either a little unusual, or just very memorable for some reason or other? Jackson: Well, I remember one which had to do with my in-reactor loop in the H Area. The fellow who was operating it before I took over—they took something out of this test facility, and had it on a big long-boy. And they spilled water down the street in the reactor area, and we had to repave the street. So that was kind of interesting. [LAUGHTER] Just to cover it up so you couldn't spread the contamination. But there was always a challenge, and that's something that I enjoyed. Bauman: So I guess, overall, in looking back at your years working at Hanford, how was it as a place to work? Jackson: Well, it was a very nice place to work. We had pretty much free rein on what we could do. We had our individual jobs. And that was nice. And they could rate you as to how you performed, and how you managed your money for your project—when you came out money-wise in the right position—and also if you came out on your time schedule for it. So I had quite a few different projects doing different jobs in different locations. Bauman: And is there anything that I haven't asked about yet, about your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about, that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Jackson: Oh! Well, when I came here, there was an awful lot of people, and the Hanford construction workers, of course, had the big 50,000 people out there in North Richland in barracks. Well, when we came—when I came, they were still in those barracks. If you were married, you have a little trailer that you lived in. The others were dormitories and such there. So there's interesting stories about some of that. You know, how some of the people survived that. Bauman: Is there anything particular that stands out in your mind, any particular story? Jackson: Oh, I was not a part of that North Richland area. I was fortunate enough, when I came, to get into the barracks down in the town. And like I say, I went into the men's dormitory, until all the tech grads congregated in W21, which was very nice, because it was a bunch of us guys that, you know, were fresh out of college, and had been for a year or two, and had a lot of mutual interests. I remember building a boat during that time, and we did a lot of water skiing out on the river. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your stories, and all the descriptions of the various jobs you worked on. It was very interesting, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Jackson: Well, I appreciate, too, the facts of what you're doing. And you know, I think this story ought to be very interesting to see when we get done with the various people. Because there were a lot of us putting in a lot of time and effort to try and make this thing go. And since that time, we're trying to tear it all down, and get rid of all the reactors, and the separations area, which I never worked in the separations area. Now, I don't know. I haven't been out other than to the B Reactor, but I found the B Reactor was very interesting to go to, because I had a distinct familiarity with it. Bauman: I guess it does bring one more question to mind. I teach a course on the Cold War, and I have actually taken my students out to the B Reactor to see it, and there's always this sort of amazement, at the size of the reactor, and all that. But of course, most of my students were born after the Cold War ended. Jackson: Yes! Bauman: So they have no memories of the Cold War. Jackson: And not very much memories of World War II, and the action we had going on there. I wasn't here during World War II. I came right after, after college. Bauman: And so I guess the question I have would be, if you were speaking to someone who is too young to have lived through any of the Cold War, how would you describe Hanford in a Cold War to them? Jackson: Well, definitely the security was a big factor, and we all had two furnaces. We had special badges we wore to get into the various and sundry areas. And you'd leave one area and go to a second, you'd pick up a badge for the second area, and leave the first area badge there, and then when you came back out, you'd get your original badge back. And this was to monitor a lot the radiation exposure that you probably were getting. But it was also secure to make sure that your activity in that particular area was necessary and approved of. You couldn't get into it if you didn't have clearance to each individual area. Bauman: Right. And would be important for people to know that, yeah. Jackson: Yeah. Bauman: Exactly. Well, again, thank you very much for coming in. I really appreciate it. Jackson: You're very welcome. We did have the buses that we would catch a bus in the morning out on Stevens Drive. They had a big bus station there, and we'd have the big yellow buses, and we'd climb into them, and drive the 35 miles out to work. And the same coming back. You didn't work overtime, because your bus would probably leave without you. Bauman: And how long did you do that? How long did you take the buses? For most of the time you worked there? Jackson: Oh, quite a length of time, and then they finally allowed us to bring our own vehicles into the area in general, not the specific area of the 100 Area enclosures, or anything like that. And so we then carpooled. And that was nice, also. But I don't know. I rode the buses for several years, I know that. Probably ten years. Bauman: All right. Well, thank you. Thanks again. Jackson: I guess that's about the size of it. Bauman: It’s good. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:13 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 762 Building 100 Area B Area D Area F Area DR Area H Area C Area 1703 D building 327 building N Reactor KE Area K Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1988 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Bonham, Corwin Stievers, Hal Asai, Dick Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Pete Jackson Description An account of the resource An interview with Pete Jackson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 1703 D building 327 building 762 Building B Area C Area D Area DR Area F Area H Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) K Area KE Area N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0bbdf6a73347ae16117663fa3c0f3544.jpg 0a7fbec0d7b9cdbbbc594862f0810905 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4c1debbbefc16cc98b17e2f1e99f32ef.mp4 73c4bc36b7c80cbf73578d12b86dd627 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip "Rick" Riccobuono Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Northwest Public Television | Riccobuono_Philip_Rick </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. We're ready to get going. So we'll get started. So first we could just have you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Philip Riccobuono: The last name is Riccobuono. R-I-C-C-O-B-U-O-N-O. And it's pronounced Riccobuono, but the "u" is really silent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. And your first name is Phillip, but you go by Rick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Phillip, and I go by Rick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And my name is Bob Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Is it Don? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Bob, that’s right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And today's date is November 6 of 2013, and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-cities. So let's start by just having you talk about what brought you to Hanford. When did you arrive? Why did you come here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. I arrived here on March 9th, 1950. I was in an army convoy that brought me from Fort Lewis to here. And at that time the Pass was only two lanes. And I had no idea where the heck I was going. None. They said Richland, Washington. And we left from Fort Lewis. And it was a 24-hour trip by Army convoy. It was a cold, cold place. When we'd come by Benton City, and we could look off to the lights—and I was in the lead Jeep in the convoy with our captain. And he looked over there, and he says, see those lights? [INAUDIBLE] And I said, yeah. And he says, that's where we're going. And at that time I said to myself, oh God, why did you bring me here? And I've been so grateful for him for doing it and bringing me here. And that's when we arrived and we went into the barracks. And then they told us that the next day they would take us out to the forward area. And we had no idea where that was. We knew there were nuclear reactors out. That was about the only thing they said. So we went out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how long had you been at Fort Lewis? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: We spent Fort Lewis over Christmas. It was about three months. We arrived in--let's see--in about October, we left Fort Bliss, Texas by train. We had to load up our 120 millimeter guns that we used for the AAA battalion to guard this place at Hanford, which we didn't know anything about. And we took all our gun training there in Fort Bliss, Texas. And then when we got done, they said, well, we're going to go to the state of Washington to Fort Lewis. And we did that. Stayed there for three months over the holiday, Christmas holiday. And we were all homesick. Cold and snow. And then on March 9th--actually March 8th, they said we're going to go on a convoy, and we're going to go to Richland. And it's going to take us at least 20 to 24 hours because we had a convoy of trucks and a whole battalion of the 519 AAA Brigade was going there. And I was a radio man so I rode up front with the captain. And it was a cool trip. Very slow. Convoy speed is only 30 miles an hour. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And how old were you at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: At that time I was 19--18. I joined the service when I was 17 to get an education, because I had to go to work when I was 13. And I never went to high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So when you went to Fort Lewis, was that the first time you had sort of been on the west coast? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: [LAUGHTER] When we just got out of New Jersey was the first time I had been out West. I spent all my life there and the Bronx, New York. And going over to Fort Dix was quite an experience. And they decided to send us to Fort Bliss, Texas for basic. I had no idea that they were going to put me in the artillery. And they did, after our basic training. And then they told us about—the 120 millimeter artillery gun is the first of its kind that we've ever had on the ground, the largest artillery gun that they made. It was never used in war, because it was made later. And to give you an idea of just how big it was, if you want to know that information. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It takes a shell and a projectile. The projectile weighs 50 pounds, and the shell weighs 52 pounds. When we first seen them back in Fort Bliss, Texas, we're looking at this, and I said, I hate to see the noise this thing is going to make when it fires. And they explained to us it'll shoot out over 100 feet. It is real loud. And they taught us how to do that. But I got assigned to the communications. That's why I was in the Jeep, I told you, in the convoy because I had to operate the radio. And that's why we come here. We had our gun training and came out here, and our mission was to guard the reactors. And they would put us in strategic places. There was only four batteries of guns, each containing four guns. And I was in C of 518. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And so where on the site was that then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The first site, if you're familiar with where the reactors are— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: D and DR Reactor. DR is the one that faces the river, which is still about, probably maybe a quarter of a mile. We were stationed between the reactor and the river. And there was a farmhouse from the original people, farmers that lived there. And we set up our command post there. Set up our four guns, that was our primary set up. And that took us a while. And that's where we were stationed in communication with the other three batteries that were out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how many men was that then at each of the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, to each battery it's approximately 115 to 118 if you're at full force. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. And so there was a--you used a farmhouse that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, it was the original house where the farmers lived that they had to evacuate. I felt sorry for those poor people. They had beautiful homes. This was a nice home, and it was still in good condition. And so our captain of the battery—we set up our communications, which they called the command post there in that building. And that's where we maintained the radio and switchboard. So at that time, we have to keep in communications by radio because we had no landlines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And did you use that the whole time that you were stationed out there, used the farmhouse? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: No, we moved to several sites. After we left there, we moved to the site of F Reactor. Now if you—say you're coming from the south where the reactors and river would be on your right side, it would be the first reactor that you come to. On the road there, we made a left there, in the area of F Reactor. Went about—200 yards is the railroad—we went over the railroad tracks and then set up camp in that area. And that's where we stayed pretty much the other half of the time. We spent over a year, year and a half at DR and then the next time we spent, until I got discharged, was at that communication area. In fact, since then a lot of times I've taken people to the original site in the DR area to show them where our site was. In fact, our baseball field is still there. Actually, we played softball. And the guys, they are just amazed. You mean, that was there 50 years ago? I said, it's still is there! And I showed it to them. But it was--that was our site. We lived in tents. It was always dirty. And as I was telling Dave when he first interviewed me. He asked me how long do we stay out and how we would set up. And the object was to keep you out there three months. The fourth month, the whole battery would get leave into town. So they always maintained three gun sites for protection. That was the plan. And I hated it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: You hated being out there for three months. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, yeah. Because you don't have any facilities at all. I mean, to go to the bathroom, you dig a trench out there. To take a bath—you'd die laughing—we used wheelbarrows. Put water in wheelbarrows and take our bath. [LAUGHTER] One time, a friend of mine when we first got there, he was in the wheelbarrow. Now, you got to picture this maybe 250-pound guy sitting in the wheelbarrow. There was no room for water. We laughed. And this is how we bathed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: What about food? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Food, we had our own mess hall and everything, which was transferred out there. And this was all—we had a mess tent, plus our tents that we lived in and stayed in. And all we did was maintain the guns all day long, clean them. What else could you do? And it was real hot. In the first summer in the DR area, we craved ice water. We craved cold water. Now, the patrolmen used to always come by the sites and visit us and talk with us. And they knew what we needed. So they said, give us your canteens. And we gave them a bunch of canteens, and they would take it back to their post and fill it up with ice water. Just a good dose of ice, and brought us back the ice water. That was really a treat. But that's what we did. You did your own laundry out there. You washed your own clothes out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: How did you do your laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, the same thing. We'd take a bucket of water and just put soap and water and then washed them and hung them up and everything. They showed us how to do, and we did it. And it was all dirty and dusty. It was not the army I expected to be in. In fact, I was out in the service for three years, nine months. I think I only slept in a barracks three months of it. In Fort Lewis was the only time--that's the only time I ever had a barracks situation. But, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So, you said, it sounds like for the most part you were maintaining the guns. That was really the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, that was the main reason. That was our mission. At that time, they had a no-fly zone over the area. No one could fly over the area. What they did do was—if you're interested in it—is that they used to have practice run from bombing from the Air Force coming to Hanford. And our job was to detect them, because we were there 24/7—and that's a phrase they never used at that time. And when they flew here, they would fly here sometimes 2,000 miles or 1,000 miles, the long range bombers, without us knowing it. And we had to find out. We had to detect them. And I'm proud to say that we did most of the time with our radar and our outpost and everything. And they did a lot of that just to practice on to make sure we were on the ball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Were there ever any incidents where someone flew over who wasn't supposed to fly over? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, yes. I've heard about that. They were watching on radar from the army bases around. Yes. From Fort Lewis especially. We've never really had an incident where I can think of where somebody actually flew over the reactors. Even the jets, you would see the contrail north or south, but never directly over. It was just no-fly zone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I would imagine a lot of the time you're doing, taking care of the guns, and there's probably some time where there's really not much going on. How did you pass the time, I guess? Would you stay entertained? Or playing softball, I guess? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It was kind of fun what we did a lot of times. Sometimes—the worst times was Christmas to spend out there. And we had a ukulele. We would go out there and sing on the ukulele. Besides that. And playing baseball on our time off, even with the officers. I mean, they were just as bored as we were. And they entertained us that way in the day time. But we didn't have any telephones--there were no cell phones--where we could communicate with the people that we knew in Richland. So mainly what we did was maintained guns, did a lot of practice all the time to see that we were on the ball and doing the right thing. And being in communications, it was my job after I became Communications Sergeant to maintain communication by telephone. You had to use landlines between each gun with the radar section. And they did have a scope for an observer to make sure that we were on target. Now, radar was just introduced at that time. And if you're interested, I could tell you how they did it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. What they did was--a 120 millimeter I think has a--it travels 3,300 feet a second. And it moves pretty fast. The object of it—the projectile was set to go off in mid-air. It doesn't hit a target. It explodes with a timer. It has the capacity to kill anything within 35 feet radius of that projectile. So the object was for the four guns to fire within a 70-foot radius. So anything in that zone was destroyed. But in order to accomplish this, they had to be synchronized to fire at the same millisecond, at the same time, and they did. And they would hit the target every time. The first time. They were really good. It was really interesting how they did it. They'd load the projectile in first in the top portion of a 120 millimeter. To accomplish this--that they fire at the same second and that are timed exactly alike on all four guns—they had to set the timer on the projectile. So in my time when they had training, I used to go out there on the gun and help load. Put the projectile in first. Now the gun--and I think there's about four or five people--four people there—had to set that projectile before we fired. So actually it would be in sequence with the other three that would go off. And to do this, they would get the command to set the timer, and all four guns had to set the timer at the same time, load it, and fire at his command. It was really something to see. I enjoyed watching it. I enjoyed helping loading it. But boy, oh boy. That's why I’m wearing hearing aids today is because of that. And the only time they ever fired them at Hanford was one time in almost three years that I was there, less than three years. Just for settling rounds so the guns would set inside. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: To give you an idea of what they did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how many guns were at each of the sites? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It was four guns at each side, and we had four sites. Then they brought in another battalion of the 518 and 519 were brought in together. So they wound up with eight sites. And they were all in communication with each other. And they had just one landline that we put in between each other and the command post in North Richland. And we never had radio contact with North Richland, our command post, which they ran the whole thing from downtown North Richland, out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And you worked at the sites by DR-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Our site was by D and DR. I do know where the other sites were. They had one at the Two East Area near PUREX and where the Vit plant is. And then you had one site behind there near 240. We had another site there by the river between K Area and that area. And when we go in town and left just a minimum crew, sometimes you worked there as a minimum crew. You would have to travel to the other sites with the few men that we had for our food. And that's how they did it while the rest of the 100 people went in town and had R & R for a week—for a month actually. And that was the procedure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I was going to ask you about that part, too. You said--so you would be on for three months and then you'd sort of have a month leave. So, during that month you just go into Richland, and I mean, and what was Richland like at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Richland was very, very small at the time. And I could still remember my first time that I had time off. If you could figure where North Richland is now, very far on top of the hill there--yeah, go by the school, and you go up the hill here? Off to the left were dorms—which two people could live in in those times. It was about two blocks in. Those dorms went from here all the way to the highway. The Bypass Highway, the main, where they meet. But anyway, we walked here to George Washington Way, that two, three blocks to that corner up on top. We were wearing uniform--me and my best friend--and we stood there, and we were looking to hitchhike, but we didn't have to. The first car that came by stopped. And it was a husband and wife and they had their daughter with them. And they said, are you soldiers looking for a ride into town? I said, yes. So they gave us a ride into town where they live. And I still remember their names. Their names were McCormick. And until the day they passed away 30 years later, I still knew them. That's how friendly the people were. Not only Richland. All three towns. And they--what they would do, the people—would invite the GIs on holidays if they were in the area to their homes. They were very friendly. Very friendly. Because being 18 years old, we were more interested in the high school girls. [LAUGHTER] But the town of Richland, Kennewick and Pasco, they accepted us very, very well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And did most people know what you're doing at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, they knew we were with the artillery, and they knew we were out their guarding the plants, but we had no idea how those plants worked, how they did it. The closest we was is by DR, the first time when I told you about the house. That was within stone's throw. That's about as close. And then later on, the one on top of the hill by PUREX, at that time—if you're familiar with the process, the fuel elements had to be dissolved. When they dissolve them, they would exhaust it through those big, high stacks that you see. And they would use nitric acid. We didn't know this at the time, but we would see that smoke. A lot of times was light white. But when they were dissolving, they would actually turned rusted color. And this is how they exhaust it. And that's about the only thing we knew. We never did know why it changed colors. Not until after I went to work there. But that's--they didn't tell us any of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So as young men on leave, were there things to do in a small town--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, a lot of times. What we used to do, like if we had that week, but we still had to have a three-day pass to leave, and we still had a post there to stay in. And the mess hall was still on the main street there—that block that's still there. And we ate there, and we ran to a lot of training. They utilized that time in training and updating us on the training and what was going on. We’d go to classes. And then I--the Korean War broke out, if you want to know about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: When the Korean War broke out, I was scheduled to be discharged in January. My enlistment was up for three years. But I couldn't. I would--all leaves and furloughs and discharges were frozen because of the war. General Mark Clark was the leader of the West Coast. He's a pretty famous guy. And now we're under a different mode out here. We were worried about in case what would happen if they would have ever try and bomb the Hanford, we didn't know. And they didn't want to lose the personnel that were there that had the experience, like I did, from the beginning and a lot of us did. They kept us there. As the war progressed, a lot of us did volunteer. I was one to volunteer because I was tired of being out there for over two years and living in a tent. If I'm going to live there that way, why not help the country? So I volunteered to go to Korea. It was three of us that did. But we went to Fort Lewis, and they rejected us and sent us back. And we never knew why until years, many years later why they rejected us. We had a reunion, our 50th year reunion—it was that long before we found out! Our 50 year Hanford reunion, we invited our officers that had been here a time that had retired. And one general who was still in command of the west coast came to it. And he said the reason why--that was my question. Why were we turned down? Why was I turned down? I mean, I was healthy enough to go to combat. Because I was really stupid, too, for volunteering. [LAUGHTER] Not really. But anyway, he told us because if we ever got captured by the Koreans, they would torture us to the point that we would tell them the sites. We would know all the sites, and that's what they would want to know. So, and you would give them that information, because that's what they would do to you. And that's why we didn't go, and weren’t unable to go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So you were sent back here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Sent me back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Until when and how long were you still stationed here then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, I was stationed here. They extended me for nine months, from January to September. And President—at that time, it was Harry Truman. And he gave us an extension. But during that nine month period, I met my wife. So maybe it was meant to be. Remember I said, Oh, God, why did you send me here? Well, I think he knew what he was doing. I got to meet my wife. We decided to get married whenever that would be. Because I didn't want to get married while I was there. I made that decision to stay here and go to work here. But I did have a very big problem. In the beginning of the conversation I told you that I didn't even go to high school. Minimum education was a high school diploma. And I did not have one. So I didn't know what to do yet. To get a GED diploma you had to have--you had to be 21 for the state of New York. So I went to our recreational captain. His name was Reeves, I'll never forget. Bless that guy. I told him I had a problem and that I wanted to get married, but to go to work here, I had to have a high school diploma. He says, we'll fix you up on that. I says, okay. He says, when do you get discharged? I says, I don't know, but they keep telling us in the fall. He says, well, you're going to get one chance at a test because after that, if you fail the test you would have to wait another year. But you're going to get discharged. So we're going to get it right the first time. Consists of five tests and each takes about an hour. Wow. But he said, don't worry about it. He says, I'll get you to study all these things and everything and you'll be ready for the test. And I says, I got a problem with that, too. He was really perplexed. He says, why? I says, I don't know how to study. And he gave me the funniest look. He says, you don't? I said, no. I says, I never went to high school. He says, okay. He said, we'll take care of that part. I'll teach you how to study. And he did. He babysat me for the next two months, and I passed the test, got my GED, wound up going to work but that took a little time because I was uneducated. And we got married, and I had no job. My poor wife was working. And it was tough. I kept going to the employment office there for General Electric, which was running the plants at that time. They said, we have nothing for you. There's nothing going on. And I'd bug them. I’d go back every week or two. And finally, in the first part of December, I says, hey. You know, there's got to be something. I said, I'll take anything. He says, no, we don't have anything. And then he said, well, we do have one job, but you don't want that. I said, what is it? He says, washing clothes in the laundry. I says, I'll take it. He said, you will? I says, hey, I just got married. I can't find a job. I will do anything just to get to go to work at Hanford because then maybe once I get in I could transfer. And he says, okay. And I did. And that's how I got started. And I worked for a year, and I transferred out. That's another story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So did your wife grow up here or was she just here working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: She grew up in Prosser. She was born there in Prosser, went to school in Wapato and graduated from Wapato and became—went to secretarial school and became a secretary and went to work here. And that's how I met her. I met her in town. The only really, what they call a hang out in town was the old mart. It was kind of like a big coffee house, and everybody would gather there. And that's where I met her. They--the girls lived in dorms. They didn't have housing, and they worked out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So you said you--so what was the frame here when you ended your service with the army and then you got the job with the laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: How long did it take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Or what time—year are we talking about roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: December, just two weeks before Christmas. I got hired in 1952. And then I worked there for 38 years and got September 22nd. And our anniversary was the 26th in September. I had a lot of things happening. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So your first job was working in the laundry. Where was the laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The laundry was in Two West Area. Soon as you came in through the gate, it was off to the left. We still-I worked there a year and didn't know. I did see--I was wondering what this guy did. He came in to survey laundry bags that came in. And I asked him. I saw him with this thing. I didn't know what it was. Of course, it was a Geiger counter, but I didn't know that. And he was going over these bags. I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm surveying to see if they're contaminated. And I says, oh. I said, contaminated from what? And then he looked at me kind of funny. He says, well from radioactive contamination. That's waste. I says, oh. I says, and that's your job? Yeah. I said, how do I become one of those? What are you called? He said, radiation monitor. I said, wow. I said, that sounds like an interesting. He says, it is. And I never forgot what he did. I said, in other words, they can't do anything without you. He said, that's right. So I put in for it. And I got turned down. The answer was no. But I did go into engineering assistant in metallurgy, which was the fuel elements that they put in there. I did do that work. And then, finally, I met someone doing that work. It was the first time I ever went into a reactor. What we did in that job was to inspect the fuel prior to radiation and then underwater in the basin behind—in the big reactor building. We worked from 30 feet away, put it on a cradle, and inspected that same fuel element so that the engineers could see what the difference. Because when it ruptured it, the reactor would have to go down because uranium is canned to stop that from happening. And when that ruptures, it increased—it becomes contaminating, contaminates the cooling water. And, therefore, they had to divert it to a crib. When that happened and reactors go down. So they were assigned, the metallurgists, to do this to stop this, to find out why they were rupturing. And that's how I got a job as an assistant. It was a nothing really job, but it was kind of interesting. But it was done in the rear face of the reactor where the fuel element was discharged. There again, people would come by and ask us what we were doing. So I told them. I said, we are inspecting the fuel just like I just told you. And this one gentleman came by. And he says, could you explain to me what you're doing? I said, sure. Come on over here. I said, you got to put on a lab coat, the minimum protective clothing, and look down the periscope to see the element and see what it looks like after it's been irradiated. And he looked at that, and he says, oh, that's what they look like up close. And I said, yeah. And I write the description on it, what it looks like after irradiation, the same one that I inspected prior to irradiation. He says, wow. And I says, yeah, the engineers use that information to stop—see what causes ruptures, so they can make them better so they don't rupture and the reactors could run. He said, wow. So every day he came by. Then he asked me, he says, do you enjoy your work? I says, it's fine, but it's not really what I would like to do. He said, what would you like to do? And I said, you know those guys that go around with the Geiger counters and check for contamination of radiation. He said, you mean radiation monitoring? And I said, yeah. I said, I would like to become one of those. He said, you do? I said, yeah. He says, okay. That's all he said. This was the beginning of the week. He comes there again on Friday, and he said, Rick. He says, Monday I want you to report to this here place and gave me the address and where it was at. And I looked at him. I said, what for? He says, they're starting the training class for radiation monitors, and it would take a period of 18 months. He says, you want to become one. You are one, but you have to go to training. It takes 18 months, and if you don't pass, you're out. So you have to do it. I looked at him, and I said, how did you do that? He goes, well, I ought to. I'm the supervisor of it. I'm the director of the whole thing. [LAUGHTER] Needless to say, ‘til the time in my whole career, I had him to thank to where I progressed in the field of radiation. I found out so many things about it. I could keep you here for hours. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: What was his name? Who was that? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I think his name was Preston. I'm not sure. Because then I didn't get to know him. I didn't get out very often to see him, to say thank you. But he got me in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I wanted to ask you. So which reactors did you work at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: All of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I was in B Reactor. And we celebrated our--1962. We reached a milestone in the year 1962. And we held a—we had a little celebration of it. And safety. We had an excellent—zero, no safety accidents, no nothing. And we had a little party for that. In fact, the picture is still there that day that I--that was with me when we had a little scare. And that was in B Reactor, which is--you know what it is today? In fact, I finally got to take my wife out there and showed her what I did. She was just--you know, like you walk through the door and all of a sudden you see this reactor. You've seen B reactor. Okay. It is breathtaking. I wanted to take her around to my office and to the basements and tell her exactly what I was doing. But some of the monitors that were there had remembered me where I helped train some years ago. And they said, we know who you are. So B Reactor was one of them. We only had one that would be on swing shift and graveyard. There was only one assigned there to a crew in each reactor. See? So you are responsible--it's the reason why I enjoyed radiation monitoring—you're responsible for all the work that goes on for the safety of the people to go in there and not—you had to go with them, set the dose rates, airborne contamination, and all that. I loved my job. It was interesting. And this is what we did. And we had a small crew of about maybe 12. But I enjoyed the job because it had substance and responsibility. And you become like a family. Working together, swing, graveyard, and the different projects that come up that you had to do during shutdowns. And they would have crews to come in to help discharge the metal, which was called, what they call a supplemental crew. And so, essentially I worked on all the reactors where they needed. And I did have over ten years. It was very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Did you have to wear special protective clothing at all when you guys would monitor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: All the time. We set the standards. That was my job. Set the standards of you say you want to go into zone and do this, I have to ask you why. You had to have a reason when you go into the radiation zone. Well, we're going to do this, and we're going to do that. Okay. This is what you have to wear. You have to be trained in the uses of how to dress and undress in the zone. And we also would send them in to keep time if they've had higher readings and levels and how long you could stay there. Now, they also have changed the program where they trained all the people to do that. But it was my job, essentially, to take care of them. And it was very difficult at first because I was pretty young. I was in like my mid-20s, and then you have maintenance people and other people, that are 40, 50 years old. And you had to be very careful how you handled people. And I was told that that was my biggest asset, to be able to communicate with people. Because you're a service group. And we had to take them into the zone. And a lot of them don't like when a young kid does and tell them this. But you soon learn that, you know, we had to do it because that's your job, and they understood. Once they knew you, they were over the hump. It was interesting. I loved my job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And you said you did that for about ten years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Then we went to separate—they were shutting down the reactors. '65, that year, and when they shut down the reactors, I was going to be out of a job. And the plant manager, and his name was Roy Dunn, he came up to me and called me in the office. And he says, Rick. He says, you've got to get out of here. They're going to shut this down maybe in a year, two years. But we are a different plant. We want to go where you're going to have a job. And I said, where would that be? He said, separations. The tank farms, which you already know about. Without that there, you wouldn't have anybody out there. [LAUGHTER] And so I transferred over there. And when I did, it was a different world because of—in the reactors, you deal with gamma, beta, neutron radiation and beta contamination. But you also have alpha radiation, which is produced only after this fuel element has been irradiated and separated to get Pu-239 creating this alpha. And I had no experience with alpha. Piece of Kleenex. If you had, say, a spot of alpha contamination, as an example. If you put a piece of Kleenex over, it would cover and you couldn't detect it unless it was really high. Then it would emit gamma. Then you could detect it. But that was a rare case. Most of the time, you couldn't detect. And you had to use certain instruments for alpha. And that's what we had to learn in separation portion of that. And that's a whole new ball game from the reactor. It's amazing. Only a government could make plutonium. It was so complicated. So complicated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how long were you over there then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: From '65 to the time I became--until I retired. In my last five years. The building--are you familiar with the PFP plant? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I've never worked there. And being in radiation monitoring that long, I got promoted into management. That was the building that they assigned me to, the most visible building in the world. And that was a lot of fun. You know, it was challenging. Because they're making the final product there. They’re taking a liquid and solidifying for transportation into the fuel element that they want, which is the ammunition for the atomic bomb. And that was my last five years in management there. We did fine. We had a lot of incidents. Like I said, I could talk to you for hours on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Are there any that really stand out? Any incidents that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah, you want to share one of them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Two of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Sure. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The one I want to share with you is in my last year in reactors, and it was in--they ran 24/7. Because we had to make plutonium. They never shut them down unless they had to. All of a sudden, we're going to shut this down for the weekend. My boss comes up to me. He says, I've got a job for you for the weekend. He said, you're going to be working with these personnel, and we're going to remove a fuel element from the side of the reactor. Picture the reactor as a big box. All the elements go out front-back. But this one came in through the side. He said, we're going to remove a fuel element. I want you to take care of that job. I says, okay. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it was the Navy that was doing it. So, I got to meet all these officers. And I says, what are you going to do? What's your plan? And they showed me, explained to me. They used a bowling ball type of a cask, which is about half of the size. It had to fit on an 18-wheel flatbed. But it was about 15 feet up and this one little whole that was only about six inches in diameter or less, sideways. The object was to go send a cable into the cast, into the reactor, hook onto the fuel element, bring it out. But it would be exposed to air about six to ten inches, and in that time, it would release a high level of radiation. And I was there to make sure that we were far enough and to an exposure level that we were able to work with this. We got it done. We were about approximately 100 feet away. And when that came out, it was--it couldn't be more than about 20 seconds to go through by that space and then into cask, then the readings would subside down. They would subside to less than about five, which is workable, so they can transport it. We did. We got done with the job. I think it was about three of them that we got to do. And it took us two ways to do it. We got invited down afterwards for a party at--it used to be called the Desert Inn, that big hotel here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Red Lion. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The Red Lion. No. Is that the one in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah. The Red Lion. Right. So we went over there, and, he says you're always asking me. He said, what we're doing and what it's for. And he says, and I couldn't tell you. And I said, that's right. So during the party, you know, we had dinner and everything. He comes over to me. He hands me the telephone. He says, it's for you. I had no idea who the hell is on the other of that. I got the phone. I said, hello? He said, I'm Admiral Rickover. I said, Admiral Rickover? You mean, you're the godfather of the Navy--of nuclear ships. He said, that's me. He said, I just wanted to thank you. He said, you've done a great job with the men. They all told me what you did. And I just want to personally say hello to you. And he said, I know you had a question, but why. I said, yes, I do. He said, well, I can't tell you why. He says, but you’ll get the answer in about three months. I said, how? He said, just read the newspaper. And then he says, pat yourself on the back for something that you helped do. That was the end of the conversation. I had no idea why. No idea. And you listening to me are probably wondering what it was. I get up one morning, read the paper. The Nautilus submarine went under the North Pole for the first voyage ever. Because of nuclear power, it could stay underwater that long. Where was it the nuclear power fuel elements came from? Come from Hanford. So now I knew. I was real thrilled about that. And I hardly couldn't believe it. But that was one of the best. I've been on a lot of dirty ones there with contamination. But that was the number one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Any other stories you want—any incidents that really stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay, we up one morning there. And this is after we went into separations away from the reactors, years later. I get up, and my wife says, they had an explosion at Hanford. I said, what? They said, that's all over the news. It's on national news. I says, they can't have an explosion with the--that's an atomic explosion. I said, that can't be done. They could have what they call a criticality. You're familiar with the criticality? They could have that, but they can't have an explosion as such. So watch the news. I got up and went, oh, sure. What had happened was that they had an explosion. This man got highly contaminated and operated. Very highly contaminated, and they were going to send him to the hospital. But they didn't know. But we didn't know. I called some of my fellow workers, and they were telling me. I was working on the swing shift, the 4:00 to 12:00 shift. So all that morning, I'm listening to that, and the news is going on. And I'm working at B Plant, which is a different separation plant. This happened in the 234-5 building, PFP plant, and I had not been there. So that's what I found out. What had happened was that this operator was working in there, and they had--it was a steam compressor of sorts that they got over pressurized, and the pipe did explode. And in doing so, it wasn't a big--it was just enough to break the windows of gloveboxes that they work in. And when it did that, he had the right protective clothing on, but it hit him in the face. See? And it went through, and he got all highly contaminated from the head down. So what they--I go to work at 4:00. Different area, East and West. I'm in the East Area. And here was my boss standing there. The plant manager standing there. And they says, we want to talk to you. So we talked. My boss said to me—and he is long gone, his name was Bernie Cyrusek. He was our big head honcho, what a wonderful man. He said, here's what I want you to do. He said, you're going to go downtown. They're going to use that new decontamination building. The operator that got contaminated, his name was McCluskey. We want to get that building cleaned up tonight, on the rest of the swing shift and during the night on graveyard by 8:00 in the morning so his family could visit him. You know, your grandfather, your husband. His family wanted to see them. And so I'm going to send you down there. I said, why me? He gave me the simple answer. Because I'm telling you to do it. They're not familiar with alpha contamination, now—remember what I was telling you about alpha? They were working in the 300 Area. They did not deal with alpha contamination, and they did not know what to do. So they had to have experienced people. The ones that went in there brought him in an ambulance and everything. And to make a long time short, we had to go down there. And they briefed us to take two operators with you to clean up the room. And the president of our company, he said, we want you to stay so far away from that building because it's going to have people from the press there. So we're going to wait 'til dark, and then you're going to come around the back of the building. And I said, whoa, whoa. Stop. And he looked at me, and he said, what? I said, you want us to do a job, right? Now you want to handcuff me. You take care of the press. But let us do our job. We're going to do it the way we have to do it. And you're back there. If you think you're too close, you move him back. But we're not going to wait 'til dark, a certain time. We're going to do it. Once we start, we have to go and do it. He looked at me, he said, okay. So they did. And we went in there. And the biggest problem we had: the nurses. They had to administer medicine to him. We got all dressed up, two layers of clothing and supplied air to go in the room. The room is about the size of this room. It's like a part--like watching a science fiction movie, the dark, the lights. Here's a man laying on a gurney. He's bare from the waist up to his head. He's just laying there. And he's got two white pieces of gauze covering his eyes. And the rest of him was bare. The problem was that he got contamination into his eyes. So they were administering water solution to kind of keep flushing his eyes out. That's, you know, the doctors have to be careful there. Of course, it would be puffed up. And he was laying on the gurney. And this nurse was sitting there. Two pairs of cover up. The temperature in there is 104 because they had to shut off—that's the first thing we did was shut off the air contamination. We could not expose airborne contamination to the atmosphere. So we had to shut the air conditioning off. That was the first thing we did. And I looked at that. Like I said, I thought there's a scene from a science fiction movie. Went over there, to the eyes. There's a table there. Some of the men in radiation monitoring were not familiar with how to work with alpha contamination. Okay. You cannot reuse a lot of the stuff, what the doctors were using. And they had all their instruments on the table. So we took the bag and put a box, emptied it out, and just cleaned it out and dumped it in there. And the guy said, what are you doing that for? I said, would you like a doctor to work on you with contaminated tools? No. He said, use new ones. And that's what we did. We got it cleaned up. So we're working back and forth. Every two hours, we take a break and go outside. So I asked them, I says, the nurses. Where are they, the ones that were here during the daytime? I said, are they still here? They said, no. We sent them home. You did? And I said, who surveyed them? He said, the guys did. And I said, were they naked when you surveyed them? They said, of course not. I said, well then you better bring them back, and you better go check the houses. Remember what I told you about that tissue? I said, they've got a bra on. They've got their panties on. I says, how do you know they didn't contaminated under their bra? Any of that. I said, that happens. It happens all the time out at work sometimes you get contaminated in your shorts. So you have to be very careful. It can come back and bite you [INAUDIBLE]. If they say that you got contaminated during incident because you didn't do your job right. He said, well, what would you do? I said, well, right now in the midst of training are some females, the first ones ever to do our job. I said, call them. They know have to survey. And take them with you to their homes and everything to make sure everything's clean. So that's what they did. They got them all checked out. By the grace of God, they did not get contaminated under their bra, to the skin, and we did it the right way. And they were very pleased. They had never thought about that. Well, you know, when you do it as often as I had, I knew what to do. And we did. And we got it done. 8:00, his family went in there. I was ready to go home. We got it cleaned up. We got him cleaned enough so his family could visit. They had to wear protective clothing, but we got it so that the air samples were down below limits so there was nothing exposed to the air. That was my second biggest incident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you. You had at least a few different jobs working in different areas. Did you have a job that was the most challenging or one that was the sort of most rewarding in your years working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: That one there was very rewarding. Because the room was highly contaminated with alpha. It was bad. I mean everything that we had to throw away to be sure and go back and re-clean it and re-clean. We worked on it pretty close to 16 hours. And the two same operators in there. And then we had to bring in the other operators to help us to help them. But they had to do it certain ways because, like I said, they weren't familiar with alpha contamination. Radiation was not a factor, was not a factor at all. See, a lot of people don't know the difference between contamination and radiation. So it was not a factor. You could work there as long as you wanted. But contamination was terrible. And we got it done. And so it was very rewarding to get that and to know that his family got to visit him. And you know, I never got to see this guy or talk to him. But they were very grateful. That was rewarding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: How about the most challenging work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The challenging part of it was getting it done in the timeframe and teaching the others. And especially the--when I found out that the women went home. I was worried about that. Because nurses have to do their job when they're there. You know, help the doctors. And I wanted to be sure that they were clean and didn't take it home with them. We got that done so that they didn't. That was very challenging. We got that done. But there were other ones, too, but not on that level that is. Because they still talk about it. In fact, I met an engineer that I talked to who’s doing something of how they decontaminated that building. He says, I wish I would have known you before we did it. See, because the building has been brought down. But you have to throw it away. We buried the ambulance that he came in. The whole thing was buried. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Where? Out on site somewhere? Where was it buried? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I forget what area. But they had to cover it to move it. We did not want them to move it as such. So we had the seal it. The first rule of any contamination spread, the very first rule, you have to contain it. You don't do what the Japanese did in that island, I mean, after that tsunami. They forgot the first rule. You've got to contain the contamination. You cannot make it go airborne. That's dangerous to the population. That is what we always keep in mind. And that's why we went over there, and we did that to that ambulance. We wrapped it all up. And, of course, the monitors already had that done before I got there. But what they also had to do was the 30 miles of roadway had to be surveyed from PFP plant to the hospital. You know, you spend time, and you hear the phrase, there's no experience like experience. And in my case that was the case. As I became more experienced, the more I got picked on to do these dirty jobs—which I didn't mind because a lot of times I volunteered. I wanted to see what was going on. I should have been a woman. I was inquisitive. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I was going to ask you, if you look back at your years working in Hanford, overall how would you assess Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: That's a good question, and I have a very good answer to that. I really didn't know what the answer was until I visited other sites. I knew I was going to get to retire within the year. And then my boss—I mentioned his name, Bernie Cyrusek. I said, you know what I never did is visit another site? I know what we do here, but we don't know what the others do there. Rocky Flats, Los Alamos. I said, I would like to go to that site and visit my peers and see how they do their job compared to us. Well, he said, you're going to get, you know, a year. He said, in less than a year now you're going to get retired. He said, but I'm going to do it because you're in there. So he did. I even got to take my wife, but I had to pay her airfare. And the first place we visited was Rocky Flats, and they went over in to New Mexico and went to Los Alamos. Have you ever been to those sites? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I've been to Los Alamos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. You've never been to Rocky Flats? Rocky Flats had a lot of problems, maybe some I shouldn't--I can't talk to you about. But the one thing that I noticed that they did at Rocky Flats, which was a no-no—We have lunchrooms out at work, the reactor. You're got to have a place to have lunch, right? That's a sacred place for being clean. We don't want anybody eating food that has any possibility of having contamination around. Our lunchrooms were surveyed all the time at work. And I notice this. When we're out at lunch, I'm seeing people with lab coats going in to eat lunch in them. So I asked my fellow managers, I says, why are you allowing this? He said, what? I says, see those people? They have what we call SWP clothing, which is the acronym for them for protective clothing. And he said, well, there's nothing wrong with it. They're surveyed. I said, who surveyed them? He said, well, they do it themselves, surveying. And I said, and you trust them that they're clean, and you're going to go eat right next to them? I says, I wouldn't. I would do it with our own people. I said, why don't you have your own people do it? Well, they won't let us. Well, I says, then you tell them we're not going to eat there You're not going to eat there. Because it should be clean. They should not wear any protective clothing in the lunchroom. That's a no-no. Well, we can't do it. I said, don't give me that. You're the supervisor. You're the manager. You set the rules. The guy above you don't set the rules. He may override you, but you set the rules. It's your responsibility to keep the safety of the people. You've got to do your job, and you're not doing it. He says, I know you're right. And I said, well, then do it because when I report back there I'm going to tell my boss the one thing I didn't like about Rocky Flats. And I did. [LAUGHTER] Los Alamos. They were a lot better. They were a lot better. They didn't allow things like that to happen. They had one thing that they had there that I wish we had had. There were so many radiation zones that we needed to know the exact readings of the airborne contamination, like here in this room. We're breathing this air. Is it clean? What you have to do is go in there with the portable, take the air sample off of that in the room, locate it. Take that sample paper off, bring it in, count the sample, and then we decide what the limits are from what our readings are. But in Los Alamos they had a different system, which I liked. They had probes on the air sample, which this detector would tell you what the level was at a remote area. So wouldn't it be nice to have a room that you could tell anybody at any time what the level of airborne contamination is? Once that alarm goes off, you could shut it down right now. And this reduces the amount of people that might be in there to get airborne contaminated and ingested into their lungs. I said, that's our job to do this. And I think Los Alamos gets an A for that. There's other things, but I won’t talk about that. So when I came back, I found out how really safe Hanford was. When somebody would ask me, do you think it's safe to work out there? I said, do you think I'm a dummy? Am I going to work out there where I'm not safe? One thing at Hanford always did, and I'll emphasize this. Safety comes first. And they did it, and they meant it. And I thank them. Because they taught me that. They taught me that in everyday life. I am very proud of Hanford's safety record. They did a good job. And that's how I found out they were the best one. And it was just the other two. They weren't as good as we are. We're number one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and talking with us. I really appreciate it--and for sharing your stories and experiences. It's terrific. Thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: You are quite welcome. I really enjoyed it. You just brought back some good memories of my life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Awesome. [LAUGHTER] </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:10:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 179 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview F Reactor DR Area VIT Plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX K Area 300 Area B Reactor PFP plant 234-5 building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1952-1970 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Dunn, Roy Cyrusek, Bernie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip "Rick" Riccobuono Description An account of the resource An interview with Philip "Rick" Riccobuono conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/6/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 234-5 building 300 Area B Reactor DR Area F Reactor K Area PFP plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) VIT Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F32fb8658e4aca0d1734878f827ea42fb.jpg 00b7f5d729867c5c081147ae76e4dca8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff62e0062c5e7327f5afc1d565712dbcf.mp4 c3dccbbcf1bc1430b69e6f1e5f761202 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Craig Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> Northwest Public Television | Craig_Philip Philip Craig: My name is Philip Craig. P-H-I-L-I-P. C-R-A-I-G. Robert Bauman: Great. Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this oral history interview on June 24th of 2015 on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Mr. Craig, why don’t we have you start, maybe, by just telling us a little bit about your background. Where you came from, how you came to Hanford, and that sort of thing. Craig: Well my how I came to Hanford started back in high school. I had a high school chemistry class. I liked what I saw. And I knew that the Hanford Project was down the road—I was living in Selah, Washington, and the Hanford Project was very interesting to me. And I even wrote a term paper on Hanford, because I really wanted to work here. So, I went on to Whitman College, graduated from high school in ’56—or ’52, I’m sorry. Graduated from college in ’56, and then went on to Washington State College, then, now Washington State University in Pullman, and did a year of graduate work in chemistry. And at the end of that, I came to Hanford for my very first job. And lo and behold, that was exactly 58 years ago today: June 24, 1957. And it was quite an experience, let me tell you. The first thing that struck me, of course I had to have credentials to get in the building. And in those days, we didn’t have badges like you have today that are on a cord around your neck. We had a little plastic folder with our ID in it, and you’d pull that out of your pocket and flash it open to the guard sitting at the entrance desk. And then you could go on into the building and find your office and take it from there. The most interesting thing, I think, about it all was it was a very formal setting. For years we wore suits, ties, long sleeved white shirts only—couldn’t have colored shirts—and the ladies wore dresses. Far more formal than today’s environment. Security, of course, was very paramount. I mean, we were in the years where the Soviets and the United States was competing. And so the Hanford site, being one of the two principal sites manufacturing plutonium in the United States, the other one being Savannah River, most of the stuff in terms of total production and that sort of thing was top secret. A lot of it was not—it was secret, but security was paramount. I remember in my little office cubby hole—it was a room, it wasn’t just a cubby hole, in abig room—we had a three-drawer file cabinet with a combination lock. And I could take a piece of paper out of that file, put it on my desk and work on it. But if I had to go to the bathroom, it went back in the combination file, locked it, go down the hall and come back and you had to unlock the combination and start all over again. And the very first thing they had me do is they handed me about a three-inch black three-ring binder with a red coversheet, marked secret. This was the PUREX operating manual. Now, PUREX stands for Plutonium Uranium Extraction, and it was the chemical process that is used to take irradiated uranium from the reactors, dissolve it in acid, treat it chemically, and come up with a plutonium nitrate solution. And I had to read this manual in about a week. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty daunting. </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Now where was your first office? Where on site? Craig: It was on in the 703 Building, which is about where the Federal Building is today. The last part of the 703 structure—it was a herringbone structure. We had offices coming off a main corridor, and there was about six tiers of those. And the very last one is still standing, and the city offices are in there. But later on, the Federal Building took over. Bauman: And what was your first job title? Craig: Physical—let’s see. Physical Science Administrator, I think it was. The other thing about the environment is that you handwrote all your reports, and then gave them to a secretary who typed them. There was no computers. So, it was kind of a laborious process to do that. I needed to check out a government car, which I did in the motor pool, and drive out to the Area to PUREX, and see what was going on most every day, drive back, write the daily report, mark it all secret, send it up a line to my boss. But that government car, let me tell you—it was not air conditioned. So those days were pretty warm. But we got it done. About two months later, after getting into the PUREX part of it, the fellow who was a companion office mate had been handling the plutonium shipments. And he went off to Washington, D.C. for another job. So I got the job of accepting plutonium products on behalf of the Atomic Energy Commission and the US government. So it was a very formal process. The products were in two forms. After the plutonium nitrate left PUREX, it was sent over to what is known as the Z Plant. And in that plant, by a series of chemical operations, it was converted to a metal button about this big and it fit in a tuna fish can. It weighed something close to two kilograms. So that was the first product. The second product were manufactured, machined weapon components. And I won’t talk about the exact details of their size and shape at this point. But nonetheless, Hanford was in the business of making weapon components. So my job was to accept this product and make the shipment, every couple of weeks or so, to Rocky Flats. Rocky Flats was about 15 miles northwest of Denver, and it was the receiving site for the plutonium as buttons. They would take that metal and cast it into weapon component shapes and machine those and so on. And of course the other part was the shapes themselves, they’d go up in pieces themselves, and they would go into an inspection process and eventually assemble parts of the warhead. Bauman: So when you say—you’re accepting them from the contractor, or--? Craig: I was accepting these materials from the contractor. I mean, General Electric Company was the contractor, and their job on a cost-plus-fixed-fee contract basis was to run all these processes. And there’s hundreds of people involved in this. But at the end of the line, I had to make that transition from Hanford to the next step. So it was a couple of months into my first job, my buddy left for Washington, and here I am, learning how to actually accept these components. Now, you need to understand that plutonium was very radioactive. It emitted some gamma radiation, but not huge amounts. I mean, you could actually handle it. But it also emitted alpha radiation. And so it had to be contained in some kind of container, like a can. And then you could hold it in your hand. Interesting. It was warm. It was—the radioactive decay—was producing heat. So this can felt like hanging onto a 60 Watt lightbulb. Now, the other part of the business of plutonium is that if you got too much of it together in one spot, you had a criticality event. And of course, the bomb itself was designed to make a lot of it go critical at the same time, and that created an atomic explosion. But the point is that if you’re handling plutonium, it had to maintain a certain degree of separation at all times. In the chemical processing plants, they used different sized columns of chemical solutions and whatnot, depending on what was going on. And that was to maintain this critical geometry, so that you didn’t have any kind of criticality event. And after the plutonium was made into these buttons we called them, and canned in the tuna fish cans, they were stored in a vault. And the vault had pillars of metal rods, and little rings on that rod that you could put a can in. But it maintained the separation. So on shipping day, what we would do is we operators of the plant would go into the vault and take these cans and very carefully put—I don’t remember exactly how many—something about five or six cans in a little red wagon. Just a little kid’s wagon. But there was spacers in there so that these things didn’t get too close. And they’d bring it down the hallway to the room that exited to the building where it then could be handled further. And this assembly area, in this room were birdcages. Now a birdcage is a metal frame that’s about this big, this big, and this big. And in the middle was a metal pot with a lid. And the idea was that you took—one at a time—one of those cans from the red wagon, and you put it in the pot. And then I think the birdcage held like three buttons. Then there was a lid, and a bunch of bolts in places where you could put a wire with a lead seal on the end. And my job was to squeeze the seal closed with an imprint and record, of course, what the identity of those cans were, and the weight, and that sort of thing on paperwork. And at the end of that, I would sign this receipt for this material, and give it to the contractor. The weapon components varied a little bit differently, depending on the size and shape of the weapon component. Eventually, those were a much bigger birdcage, and it contained a couple of pieces of weapon material. The business of shipping, then—I owned that plutonium for maybe 15 minutes [LAUGHTER] before the government. Then I would transfer it to armed couriers, AEC couriers. They were not only armed with side arms; they were armed with machine guns. This was serious stuff. And they would load these birdcages into a truck, and eventually ship that off to Rocky Flats. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: How often did these shipments--? Craig: Well, every couple of weeks or so. Bauman: And so, they were shipped by truck then, to Rocky Flats? Craig: That was a method used in later years. They didn’t really like shipping by truck that well. We actually had another system that involved—all I’m going to say is it involved rail. Because the exact details was highly classified. Bauman: And did the amount that was shipped vary significantly, or--? Craig: It varied, yes. Depends on how the production was going and what the requirements were on the other end. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sure. And so how long did you do this, then? How long were you--? </div> <div>Craig: From 1957 to 1972.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Wow. Craig: So I shipped a lot of plutonium. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Craig: The other thing that was kind of interesting—I was explaining to you about the criticality. I hadn’t been on the job more than, I don’t know, a couple of months, shipping. I knew what to do, I knew the whole process, and I knew the sensitivity of it. One day one of these chemical operators who worked for the contractor had gone to the vault, and he came down the hall carrying about five tuna fish cans in his hand, and holding it with his arm like this. Well, that was absolutely high risk criticality event waiting to happen. And he walked in the room, and I said, ooooh. Just stop right where you are. And I instructed one of the other operators, take one of the cans from him and put it in the birdcage very carefully. And we got that shipment loaded and we were on our way. And then I went to the manager’s office—the plant manager’s office. Now, this fellow was like 60 years old. Kind of a salty southerner with—I mean, he was definitely in charge. And I’m 23 years old. Fresh out of college, wet behind the ears. And I gave him a real lecture about safety. And he didn’t like that. He called my boss. And my boss said Mr. Craig was right: you really almost had an accident today. That’s the end of that story. There was more to the whole weapons system. Since I was in the whole process, one of the small cogs—there was uranium coming from Oak Ridge. There was plutonium—some plutonium—and tritium coming from Savannah River. There was high explosives coming from Pantex. And then Hanford plutonium. This all had to be scheduled into what was known as the US master nuclear delivery schedule. It was the weapons document for all the weapons made in the country. It was a top secret document, and representatives from each of these sites got together, usually in Albuquerque, New Mexico, or at the Rocky Flats Plant. And we handwrote this schedule. There was no computers. There was a spreadsheet format, yes. But we didn’t have computers to do all that. Everything had to be balanced. This whole process had to bring all these materials together for processing at Rocky Flats. And so, about once a year we got together to do the master nukes schedule. I found I was pretty fortunate to be a part of that. I was pretty young. But it was a challenge. I had a lot of help, of course. But I was very impressed. One of the things that kind of scared me though was—and let me check on the date. October 22 to 24, 1962. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were in Denver and Rocky Flats to work on these schedules. Now, that was ground zero for the Russians. If they were going to attack the United States, that probably would have been one of their targets. And it was kind of scary working there for those two days. I was very thankful that President Kennedy convinced Khrushchev to back off and no ill things happened. Bauman: Were you here when President Kennedy came to Hanford in ’63? Craig: Yes, yes. Bauman: Do you remember that? Craig: Oh, I remember that. We got to drive out and see him out at the reactor site. It was quite an experience. I think that was one of the only Presidents I’ve ever seen in person. And it wasn’t long after that, you know, a couple months or less, that he was assassinated in Texas. Bauman: Do you remember much about that day? Craig: It was hot! [LAUGHTER] It was still warm when he was here visiting. But it was a big event. There was thousands of people out there in the desert. But it was very thrilling experience to see the President come. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: Sure. So, you said you were working on the shipment from ’57 to ’72. So did that process change much over those years, other than shifting from— Craig: Well, yes. In about ’66, we quit making weapon components at Hanford. And the process moved to Rocky Flats entirely. Bauman: So that part changed. Craig: Yeah. That part changed. But the plutonium buttons didn’t. Bauman: And so then in ’72 then, how did your job change? What did you start doing at that point? Craig: Well, the other significant activity that I was involved with was in 1968. The site was in a state where we had 149 single-shell waste tanks and 28 double-shell waste tanks. Actually, that’s not quite right. There were four short of that on the double-shell. And these were boiling waste tanks. The others were not boiling waste. But it was all liquid, and we were concerned about the integrity of the tanks and the lifetime of the tanks. And so at that time, the Atlantic-Richfield-Hanford Company, ARCO, was the contractor. And two of their engineers, Sam Beard and Bob McCullough and I co-authored a document that was called “The Hanford Waste Management Briefing.” And the purpose of this was to explain the Hanford situation to our headquarters—our AEC headquarters staff, and Congressional staffers who were then going to be funding what is now known as the Tank Farm projects. And this document was a briefing document, and the key—one of the key charts that we were particularly proud of is to try to show people how complex the business of the Hanford waste system was. And this chart shows what happens to a ton of uranium that’s been irradiated and then processed at PUREX, and the wastes that come out of that whole process. And some of it’s boiling waste, because of high levels of radioactivity that are in that particular section of waste, and some was non-boiling. For example, you’re dealing with—for that ton of waste—680 gallons of non-boiling waste and 220 gallons of boiling waste. And in the non-boiling tank, you have 900 pounds of salts, chemical nitrate—nitrates and so on, and about 350 curies of radioactivity. But in the boiling side, there’s 230 pounds of salt, but 300,000 curies of activity. That’s why they’re boiling. And then there was a low-level stream that had like 55,000 gallons of waste that went to a crib—a crib is like a septic tank—tile field—and the swamp, which is just an open pond. There was another 560,000 gallons went there, but their radioactivity was less than a tenth of a curie. I mean, it was just negligible. On the solid side, there was about ten cubic feet of solid waste. There was about 10 million cubic feet—I’m sorry—of gases that came out. And here’s the number that it was radio—a surprise to everyone that it was published. It was secret then, but it’s been declassified since. Out of that ton of fuel came 530 grams of plutonium and four grams of neptunium. So the chemical process that started with a ton of material and ended up with just a very small amount. So it’s kind of like finding a needle in a haystack. </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Right. Craig: Because these wastes were boiling, we’d started building—had started building double-shell tanks. A double-shell tank is a steel tank within a steel tank within a concrete barrier. And this diagram in that briefing document showed what a double-shell tank was all about. These were million-gallon tanks. And in those days, it was about a dollar, maybe a dollar and a half a gallon to build those tanks. A million-million half dollars for one of these big tanks. Far, far, less than what they would cost today. Bauman: Yeah. Craig: At any rate, we made this presentation to the staffers and the ultimate activity was to remove as much as water as we could from the single-shell tanks so that we ended up with a salt cake that was not going anywhere. We isolated cesium-137 and strontium-90 by another chemical process, carried out in B Plant, to bring those short-lived emitters of radiation to a point where we could encapsulate those in steel cylinders. That was done and they’re stored. I think they’re still stored that way, but I’m not entirely sure. I kind of lost track of what’s happened since. We also built—were recommending that they build four more double-shelled tanks and that’s why the number finally grew to 28 double-shell tanks. And then, of course, it ultimately led to the pretreatment plant that’s in the process out here now, and the Waste Vitrification Plant. Bauman: You mentioned one of the reasons for doing the report was there were concerns about the integrity of the single-shell tanks. Were some of them leaking at that point, or just concerns that they might leak? Craig: I think at that point there were some that had displayed a little bit of leakage, yes. There’s other documents that showed some leakage, but, again it wasn’t into the concrete overpack, if you will. There was some, of course, got into the soil column, but it was not a series breach, and it wasn’t any radioactivity that got down into the groundwater. But we were afraid that it would. I mean, 1968, these tanks have been—the initial ones—had been built in 1944! ’45, ’46. So there was some that were approaching the end of life, and those tanks are still there today. And that’s why they’re so concerned about trying to remove some of the waste from these tanks and process it. Bauman: So, who initiated—was this ARCO or AEC that sort of initiated the study that you helped write? Craig: Oh, I think it was—collectively, the Hanford folks at engineering—folks on both sides of the contractor and the government were saying, we got to do something about this. Anyway, I think that’s about all I want to say about the creation of that document. I thought it would be interesting for you to look into if that ever showed up in the REACH literature as the kickoff document to get this thing going. Bauman: Right, right. Yeah. And did you continue to be involved after this report in some of the tank—waste management end of things? </div> </div> <div>Craig: Yes. Actually, I had some side activities that I got into first. From 1968 to 1972, I was the plutonium leasing officer for the government. There was one in Oak Ridge for uranium, and I was the plutonium one for the US. And basically, what I was—what we did is we created a lease document, so the 125 commercial organizations, 40 government agencies, and about 450 colleges and universities could have plutonium material. And we would, in effect, rent it to them for a use charge. Wasn’t very expensive, but it was a charge. More importantly, if they lost any of it, they had to pay for it. The largest users of that lease program were the two reactor fuel contractors. One of them was Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation in Apollo, Pennsylvania. And the other one was Kerr-McGee in Oklahoma. They made reactor fuels for the breeder program at Oak Ridge, and the Fast Flux Test Facility here. So that was a way for them to have this material. For the next nine years, I continued to be involved with the PUREX and Z Plant, and the management of both site materials—all of the different types of materials that we had: uranium, and plutonium, and so on. And those materials were about $500,000 to $750,000 in value. I’m sorry, $500 to $750 million in value. But it was a management process. Then later on, from 1981 to 1985, I was able to be involved in the last big development program that I had while I was working for the government. It was called the Spent Fuel Management Program. Now, during this time, the AEC had been in charge—prior to this time, the AEC had been in charge of both the Defense orientation of radioactive materials, and also the development of commercial power reactors. And there was a political hue and cry from about 19—let’s see—1974, I think it was—that the commercial reactor stuff should go to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, a new agency. And then, of course, a few years after that, about 1978 I think it was, the—oh, by the way, when the NRC was created, they changed the name of AEC. It became ERDA: Energy Research and Development Administration. And then about four years later, they changed it again to the Department of Energy. Well, now we had the government on our side—DoE had an obligation to kind of help the nuclear power industry deal with the long-term disposal of their spent fuel. I mean, as the fuel is burned up in their reactor and is no longer useful, eventually it was going to be encapsulated and sent off to Yucca Mountain. Well, until Yucca Mountain got authorized and built, then they needed an interim storage, and so we developed a concept called the at-reactor spent fuel storage. Several of us—myself and somebody from NRC, and somebody from Battelle, the contract who was working with me, and somebody from the Electric Power Research Institute, representing the power industry—I think that’s about it—we all went off to observe some dry storage in casks in Germany. We brought that technology back to the United States. We worked with the NRC to get it licensed. And now the power reactors of this country are using at-reactor storage in basically steel containers that contain the spent fuel and are just sitting on concrete pads, and the radioactive decay heat is dissipated into the surrounding environment. But all the radioactivity is very well contained in these casks. Hopefully, eventually Yucca Mountain will open. It was part of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act that I was involved with in those days. The whole purpose of this act was to create a long-term disposal. And NRC was involved in licensing that long-term disposal, and the nuclear power industry was to pay a fee for all this fuel that they were generating to help pay for this. Well, then all this got stopped because of the politics of Nevada and the—it’s going to be restarted, because there was a lawsuit that was settled recently that said that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act should be followed.</div> <div> Bauman: Right. So, you were involved with that in— Craig: I was involved in— Bauman: About ’85? </div> <div>Craig: --all that kind of stuff.</div> <div> Bauman: Right. Craig: Yes. And then I left the—at that point, this will be—okay, you can go back on. At that point in 1985, I left the government, went private, went to work for a packaging—an engineering and design company that designed high-level waste shipping containers for use on transportation. They started off—their first big project was the Three Mile Island cask, to move that waste. And then from that, I marketed to the government a high-level waste—any kind of high-level waste that could be put into a cask and removed. And then the TRUPACT-II cask for use in transferring transuranic waste, or primarily plutonium waste, from the government sites to the waste isolation pilot plant in Carlsbad, New Mexico. And from there, I got involved on a couple of other organizations. Eventually, in 1991, I went to work for Lockheed. In 1996, Lockheed, along with—well, Fluor Daniel was the primary contractor, but we were on the Fluor Daniel team, and Lockheed was to manage the Tank Farms. So we came full circle, and I helped Lockheed win that contract. Bauman: Right, you did come full circle. Craig: So then, Lockheed moved me from—I was then living in Federal Way, and Lockheed rewarded me by moving me back to Hanford and letting me work on the Hanford site in ’96. And I did that until December of 2000. And there I was involved in the new contracting method. Instead of cost-plus-fixed-fee contracting, it was cost-plus-incentive-fee. And what we would do was we would create a document for a scope of work, a performance agreement. And the contractor would say, here, DoE, this is what we’re going to do for you, and here’s how long it’s going to take. And DoE said, okay, if you do that, we’ll pay you this fee, and if you don’t get it done on time, we’re going to cut your fee. And if you don’t do it well, we’re going to cut your fee. And my job was to, at the end of the work performance, was to write up the actual work done in a document to present to DoE that says, okay, pay us the fee. We were very successful in getting our award fee. And then I gave it all up in December of 2000, after 43 years. Bauman: I wonder if I can go back—and this is really interesting stuff, fascinating career. I wanted to ask you just about the community, when you arrived here in 1957, what was Richland like at the time? Could you talk about that a little bit? And did you live in Richland, or--? Craig: Oh, yes. Yes. We were allowed to rent from the government a B house—half of a B house on Haupt. This was June 1957. And by then—a couple of months—the government started selling off the town to private citizens. And we were in the first block to be sold. The senior owners in the other end of the B house bought the B house. And at that time, we moved to the other side of town, into a ranch house, because that had been sold to its owner. This is kind of an interesting, because the ranch house that the owner—I mean the resident who was able to buy it bought for like $7,700. And then when we bought the ranch house, I think we paid like $9,500. And of course, those ranch houses today sell for over 100. The town was very—initially of course, it was very caste-oriented. I mean, if you were a contractor, management, you got to live on the river. If you were a lowly government GS-7, you got to live in a B house. And there was a certain level of, you know, if you weren’t in this class, you weren’t part of it, you know. And I think that’s changed dramatically over the years. It doesn’t make any difference who you work for and how much money you make and all that stuff. People have changed for the better. </div> <div> Bauman: Anything else about the community that stood out to you at the time? Craig: Well, the first thing that Richland did was they had to celebrate their founding as Richland. They set off a mock atomic bomb, and it was a bunch of fanfare out in the park, and made a poof of smoke that was to represent a mushroom cloud. Bauman: So, was this at Howard Amon Park? Craig: Yeah. It was. Bauman: Anything else that—memories that stand out, either about in community of Richland, or your work—any stories or memories that really stand out to you that you’d like to share? Craig: I feel confident that this waste document that shows particularly how much plutonium was made, that was a very revolutionary thing. I mean, the idea how much of material you got out of a ton of uranium was— Bauman: Right. Craig: Very classified. And to see that declassified and whatnot. It’s— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Craig: Kind of mind-blowing. But there’s the document. And it’s legitimate to talk about. Bauman: Right. Craig: Not sure I want it on the local news tonight, but—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So I don’t know if you want to talk to us about the McCluskey incident and your involvement in that? Craig: Well, at the time, I was responsible for the Z Plant operations. And so, one morning, early, about 4:30 in the morning, I get a call from the plant that there had been an accident out of the plant, and I needed to get out there. And so I threw some clothes on and got a government car and went out to the site. What had happened was the plant had been operating on the recovery of americium-241 as part of the reclamation activities. And it was a chemical process. Inside this chemical process were criticalities tanks, small tanks like this, long, inside of a glovebox. Earlier in that summer, there had been a labor dispute, and the plant was on strike. And so the process had been shut down. Well, what was going on was americium was loaded onto the ion exchange medium inside this long column. When the dispute was settled and we had several days of reviews, conducting interviews with the contractor people, are you ready to restart? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? And finally they were authorized to start. Well, what happened is that when they poured strong nitric acid on that ion exchange column to take, you lose off the americium. The americium had decayed the resin beads of the ion exchange medium ‘til it was kind of an organic gunk. And that acid reacted with it, and that violent chemical reaction blew open that column. It breached the glovebox, and it sprayed chemicals and americium all over Mr. McCluskey. And he was taken to an initial decontamination spot onsite, and then downtown. But my job, when I got there, was to fend off the media. What had happened—as soon as this became knowledge, and the media got hold of it, here they come in helicopters, landing inside the secure area of 200 West. The guards were going nuts. I mean, here’s these people that are not supposed to be there! Eventually, they didn’t do anything but try to manage it and bring them over towards the building, the end of the building, where behind the building walls was this processing cell where everything had taken place. And they were standing there, I was standing there outside talking to the media, trying to explain what happened. And I had an alpha copy machine. I was standing there, showing them that there was no contamination on my feet, there was no contamination around. They were panning everywhere with their cameras, and they found a sodium hydroxide feed tank that had just a little bit of salt cake around the valve on the outside. Non-radioactive, nothing—I mean it was a nothing tank. And they filmed that like it was the biggest thing since sliced bread. And I remember I went through all this and—to find out that it made the national news. But I didn’t get to see it, because I was out there. [LAUGHTER] But it became a non-event. It was not a disaster, there was containment, there was—all the safety things worked as well as they should. The public was never in any harm. But that was a— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So, what happened, then, with the room, or whatever, where the incident took place? Craig: Oh, they sealed that room off right away. And then it remained sealed up until very recently, when they went in and took it apart. And processed it for disposal. Bauman: Did you know Mr. McCluskey at all? Craig: No. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Okay.</div> <div> <div> Craig: No. He was a chemical operator. I didn’t know who he was, hadn’t met him. But it was one of those things that— Bauman: Right. Craig: --Happened. Bauman: Well, thanks, again for sharing that story. Glad we remembered to do that. Craig: What was funny about it—I was trying to stand up. I used to be able to do this. I could stand there and hold my foot up and balance. And then I realized I couldn’t do that. Bauman: Oh, watch the microphone there on your— Craig: Oh, yeah. </div> </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:50:54 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 232 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 703 Building Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Fast Flux Test Facility Z Plant B Plant Waste Vitrification Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1957-2015 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1957-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Beard, Sam McCullough, Bob Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Craig Description An account of the resource An interview with Philip Craig conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-06: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/24/2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 703 Building B Plant Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Richland (Wash.) Waste Vitrification Plant Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F28cd2043c9ba0ab8d30fec025de8c735.JPG 8354e6925db0dfcc31cd6233a0bf0a77 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F85523bfe18aac656aff6c2ba9818cebc.mp4 b786779793fd5e6237875cbaa5f52764 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Craig Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Man one: So it’s pointing at you. Philip Craig: So it’s pointing at me? Man one: Yeah, yeah. Man two: Exactly. Craig: Oh, there we go. Man two: Perfect, perfect. Craig: There we go! Man one: Okay, excellent. Craig: Okay? Robert Bauman: Okay. Let me know when you’re ready, all right? Then we’ll—all right? Man one: We are rolling, so on your cue. Bauman: So, let’s start, first of all, by just having you say your name and spell it for us, so we make sure we have that correct. Craig: My name is Philip Craig. P-H-I-L-I-P. C-R-A-I-G. Bauman: Great. Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this oral history interview on June 24th of 2015 on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Mr. Craig, why don’t we have you start, maybe, by just telling us a little bit about your background. Where you came from, how you came to Hanford, and that sort of thing. Craig: Well my how I came to Hanford started back in high school. I had a high school chemistry class. I liked what I saw. And I knew that the Hanford Project was down the road—I was living in Selah, Washington, and the Hanford Project was very interesting to me. And I even wrote a term paper on Hanford, because I really wanted to work here. So, I went on to Whitman College, graduated from high school in ’56—or ’52, I’m sorry. Graduated from college in ’56, and then went on to Washington State College, then, now Washington State University in Pullman, and did a year of graduate work in chemistry. And at the end of that, I came to Hanford for my very first job. And lo and behold, that was exactly 58 years ago today: June 24, 1957. And it was quite an experience, let me tell you. The first thing that struck me, of course I had to have credentials to get in the building. And in those days, we didn’t have badges like you have today that are on a cord around your neck. We had a little plastic folder with our ID in it, and you’d pull that out of your pocket and flash it open to the guard sitting at the entrance desk. And then you could go on into the building and find your office and take it from there. The most interesting thing, I think, about it all was it was a very formal setting. For years we wore suits, ties, long sleeved white shirts only—couldn’t have colored shirts—and the ladies wore dresses. Far more formal than today’s environment. Security, of course, was very paramount. I mean, we were in the years where the Soviets and the United States was competing. And so the Hanford site, being one of the two principal sites manufacturing plutonium in the United States, the other one being Savannah River, most of the stuff in terms of total production and that sort of thing was top secret. A lot of it was not—it was secret, but security was paramount. I remember in my little office cubby hole—it was a room, it wasn’t just a cubby hole, in a big room—we had a three-drawer file cabinet with a combination lock. And I could take a piece of paper out of that file, put it on my desk and work on it. But if I had to go to the bathroom, it went back in the combination file, locked it, go down the hall and come back and you had to unlock the combination and start all over again. And the very first thing they had me do is they handed me about a three-inch black three-ring binder with a red coversheet, marked secret. This was the PUREX operating manual. Now, PUREX stands for Plutonium Uranium Extraction, and it was the chemical process that is used to take irradiated uranium from the reactors, dissolve it in acid, treat it chemically, and come up with a plutonium nitrate solution. And I had to read this manual in about a week. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty daunting. Bauman: Now where was your first office? Where on site? Craig: It was on in the 703 Building, which is about where the Federal Building is today. The last part of the 703 structure—it was a herringbone structure. We had offices coming off a main corridor, and there was about six tiers of those. And the very last one is still standing, and the city offices are in there. But later on, the Federal Building took over. Bauman: And what was your first job title? Craig: Physical—let’s see. Physical Science Administrator, I think it was. The other thing about the environment is that you handwrote all your reports, and then gave them to a secretary who typed them. There was no computers. So, it was kind of a laborious process to do that. I needed to check out a government car, which I did in the motor pool, and drive out to the Area to PUREX, and see what was going on most every day, drive back, write the daily report, mark it all secret, send it up a line to my boss. But that government car, let me tell you—it was not air conditioned. So those days were pretty warm. But we got it done. About two months later, after getting into the PUREX part of it, the fellow who was a companion office mate had been handling the plutonium shipments. And he went off to Washington, D.C. for another job. So I got the job of accepting plutonium products on behalf of the Atomic Energy Commission and the US government. So it was a very formal process. The products were in two forms. After the plutonium nitrate left PUREX, it was sent over to what is known as the Z Plant. And in that plant, by a series of chemical operations, it was converted to a metal button about this big and it fit in a tuna fish can. It weighed something close to two kilograms. So that was the first product. The second product were manufactured, machined weapon components. And I won’t talk about the exact details of their size and shape at this point. But nonetheless, Hanford was in the business of making weapon components. So my job was to accept this product and make the shipment, every couple of weeks or so, to Rocky Flats. Rocky Flats was about 15 miles northwest of Denver, and it was the receiving site for the plutonium as buttons. They would take that metal and cast it into weapon component shapes and machine those and so on. And of course the other part was the shapes themselves, they’d go up in pieces themselves, and they would go into an inspection process and eventually assemble parts of the warhead. Bauman: So when you say—you’re accepting them from the contractor, or--? Craig: I was accepting these materials from the contractor. I mean, General Electric Company was the contractor, and their job on a cost-plus-fixed-fee contract basis was to run all these processes. And there’s hundreds of people involved in this. But at the end of the line, I had to make that transition from Hanford to the next step. So it was a couple of months into my first job, my buddy left for Washington, and here I am, learning how to actually accept these components. Now, you need to understand that plutonium was very radioactive. It emitted some gamma radiation, but not huge amounts. I mean, you could actually handle it. But it also emitted alpha radiation. And so it had to be contained in some kind of container, like a can. And then you could hold it in your hand. Interesting. It was warm. It was—the radioactive decay—was producing heat. So this can felt like hanging onto a 60 Watt lightbulb. Now, the other part of the business of plutonium is that if you got too much of it together in one spot, you had a criticality event. And of course, the bomb itself was designed to make a lot of it go critical at the same time, and that created an atomic explosion. But the point is that if you’re handling plutonium, it had to maintain a certain degree of separation at all times. In the chemical processing plants, they used different sized columns of chemical solutions and whatnot, depending on what was going on. And that was to maintain this critical geometry, so that you didn’t have any kind of criticality event. And after the plutonium was made into these buttons we called them, and canned in the tuna fish cans, they were stored in a vault. And the vault had pillars of metal rods, and little rings on that rod that you could put a can in. But it maintained the separation. So on shipping day, what we would do is we operators of the plant would go into the vault and take these cans and very carefully put—I don’t remember exactly how many—something about five or six cans in a little red wagon. Just a little kid’s wagon. But there was spacers in there so that these things didn’t get too close. And they’d bring it down the hallway to the room that exited to the building where it then could be handled further. And this assembly area, in this room were birdcages. Now a birdcage is a metal frame that’s about this big, this big, and this big. And in the middle was a metal pot with a lid. And the idea was that you took—one at a time—one of those cans from the red wagon, and you put it in the pot. And then I think the birdcage held like three buttons. Then there was a lid, and a bunch of bolts in places where you could put a wire with a lead seal on the end. And my job was to squeeze the seal closed with an imprint and record, of course, what the identity of those cans were, and the weight, and that sort of thing on paperwork. And at the end of that, I would sign this receipt for this material, and give it to the contractor. The weapon components varied a little bit differently, depending on the size and shape of the weapon component. Eventually, those were a much bigger birdcage, and it contained a couple of pieces of weapon material. Bauman: So— Craig: Hold up. Bauman: Oh, sure. Craig: I got to collect my thoughts here. Okay. You can go back on. The business of shipping, then—I owned that plutonium for maybe 15 minutes [LAUGHTER] before the government. Then I would transfer it to armed couriers, AEC couriers. They were not only armed with side arms; they were armed with machine guns. This was serious stuff. And they would load these birdcages into a truck, and eventually ship that off to Rocky Flats. Bauman: How often did these shipments--? Craig: Well, every couple of weeks or so. Bauman: And so, they were shipped by truck then, to Rocky Flats? Craig: That was a method used in later years. They didn’t really like shipping by truck that well. We actually had another system that involved—all I’m going to say is it involved rail. Because the exact details was highly classified. Bauman: And did the amount that was shipped vary significantly, or--? Craig: It varied, yes. Depends on how the production was going and what the requirements were on the other end. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sure. And so how long did you do this, then? How long were you--? Craig: From 1957 to 1972. Bauman: Wow. Craig: So I shipped a lot of plutonium. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Craig: The other thing that was kind of interesting—I was explaining to you about the criticality. I hadn’t been on the job more than, I don’t know, a couple of months, shipping. I knew what to do, I knew the whole process, and I knew the sensitivity of it. One day one of these chemical operators who worked for the contractor had gone to the vault, and he came down the hall carrying about five tuna fish cans in his hand, and holding it with his arm like this. Well, that was absolutely high risk criticality event waiting to happen. And he walked in the room, and I said, ooooh. Just stop right where you are. And I instructed one of the other operators, take one of the cans from him and put it in the birdcage very carefully. And we got that shipment loaded and we were on our way. And then I went to the manager’s office—the plant manager’s office. Now, this fellow was like 60 years old. Kind of a salty southerner with—I mean, he was definitely in charge. And I’m 23 years old. Fresh out of college, wet behind the ears. And I gave him a real lecture about safety. And he didn’t like that. He called my boss. And my boss said Mr. Craig was right: you really almost had an accident today. That’s the end of that story. There was more to the whole weapons system. Since I was in the whole process, one of the small cogs—there was uranium coming from Oak Ridge. There was plutonium—some plutonium—and tritium coming from Savannah River. There was high explosives coming from Pantex. And then Hanford plutonium. This all had to be scheduled into what was known as the US master nuclear delivery schedule. It was the weapons document for all the weapons made in the country. It was a top secret document, and representatives from each of these sites got together, usually in Albuquerque, New Mexico, or at the Rocky Flats Plant. And we handwrote this schedule. There was no computers. There was a spreadsheet format, yes. But we didn’t have computers to do all that. Everything had to be balanced. This whole process had to bring all these materials together for processing at Rocky Flats. And so, about once a year we got together to do the master nukes schedule. I found I was pretty fortunate to be a part of that. I was pretty young. But it was a challenge. I had a lot of help, of course. But I was very impressed. One of the things that kind of scared me though was—and let me check on the date. October 22 to 24, 1962. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were in Denver and Rocky Flats to work on these schedules. Now, that was ground zero for the Russians. If they were going to attack the United States, that probably would have been one of their targets. And it was kind of scary working there for those two days. I was very thankful that President Kennedy convinced Khrushchev to back off and no ill things happened. Bauman: Were you here when President Kennedy came to Hanford in ’63? Craig: Yes, yes. Bauman: Do you remember that? Craig: Oh, I remember that. We got to drive out and see him out at the reactor site. It was quite an experience. I think that was one of the only Presidents I’ve ever seen in person. And it wasn’t long after that, you know, a couple months or less, that he was assassinated in Texas. Bauman: Do you remember much about that day? Craig: It was hot! [LAUGHTER] It was still warm when he was here visiting. But it was a big event. There was thousands of people out there in the desert. But it was very thrilling experience to see the President come. Bauman: Sure. So, you said you were working on the shipment from ’57 to ’72. So did that process change much over those years, other than shifting from— Craig: Well, yes. In about ’66, we quit making weapon components at Hanford. And the process moved to Rocky Flats entirely. Bauman: So that part changed. Craig: Yeah. That part changed. But the plutonium buttons didn’t. Bauman: And so then in ’72 then, how did your job change? What did you start doing at that point? Craig: Well, take a break for a sec. [VIDEO CUTS] Bauman: Sure, that’d be great. Do you want to go ahead and do that now? Craig: Hmm? Bauman: Do you want to go ahead and start that now then? Start talking about that? Craig: Yes. Bauman: Okay. That’d be great. Man one: All right, just a moment. Okay, we’re rolling again. Just start whenever you— Craig: Okay. Well, let’s see, I need the face page of this. Okay, I’m ready. Bauman: Go ahead. Man two: We’re rolling. Craig: The other significant activity that I was involved with was in 1968. The site was in a state where we had 149 single-shell waste tanks and 28 double-shell waste tanks. Actually, that’s not quite right. There were four short of that on the double-shell. And these were boiling waste tanks. The others were not boiling waste. But it was all liquid, and we were concerned about the integrity of the tanks and the lifetime of the tanks. And so at that time, the Atlantic-Richfield-Hanford Company, ARCO, was the contractor. And two of their engineers, Sam Beard and Bob McCullough and I co-authored a document that was called “The Hanford Waste Management Briefing.” And the purpose of this was to explain the Hanford situation to our headquarters—our AEC headquarters staff, and Congressional staffers who were then going to be funding what is now known as the Tank Farm projects. And this document was a briefing document, and the key—one of the key charts that we were particularly proud of is to try to show people how complex the business of the Hanford waste system was. And this chart shows what happens to a ton of uranium that’s been irradiated and then processed at PUREX, and the wastes that come out of that whole process. And some of it’s boiling waste, because of high levels of radioactivity that are in that particular section of waste, and some was non-boiling. For example, you’re dealing with—for that ton of waste—680 gallons of non-boiling waste and 220 gallons of boiling waste. And in the non-boiling tank, you have 900 pounds of salts, chemical nitrate—nitrates and so on, and about 350 curies of radioactivity. But in the boiling side, there’s 230 pounds of salt, but 300,000 curies of activity. That’s why they’re boiling. And then there was a low-level stream that had like 55,000 gallons of waste that went to a crib—a crib is like a septic tank—tile field—and the swamp, which is just an open pond. There was another 560,000 gallons went there, but their radioactivity was less than a tenth of a curie. I mean, it was just negligible. On the solid side, there was about ten cubic feet of solid waste. There was about 10 million cubic feet—I’m sorry—of gases that came out. And here’s the number that it was radio—a surprise to everyone that it was published. It was secret then, but it’s been declassified since. Out of that ton of fuel came 530 grams of plutonium and four grams of neptunium. So the chemical process that started with a ton of material and ended up with just a very small amount. So it’s kind of like finding a needle in a haystack. Bauman: Right. Craig: Because these wastes were boiling, we’d started building—had started building double-shell tanks. A double-shell tank is a steel tank within a steel tank within a concrete barrier. And this diagram in that briefing document showed what a double-shell tank was all about. These were million-gallon tanks. And in those days, it was about a dollar, maybe a dollar and a half a gallon to build those tanks. A million-million half dollars for one of these big tanks. Far, far, less than what they would cost today. Bauman: Yeah. Craig: At any rate, we made this presentation to the staffers and the ultimate activity was to remove as much as water as we could from the single-shell tanks so that we ended up with a salt cake that was not going anywhere. We isolated cesium-137 and strontium-90 by another chemical process, carried out in B Plant, to bring those short-lived emitters of radiation to a point where we could encapsulate those in steel cylinders. That was done and they’re stored. I think they’re still stored that way, but I’m not entirely sure. I kind of lost track of what’s happened since. We also built—were recommending that they build four more double-shelled tanks and that’s why the number finally grew to 28 double-shell tanks. And then, of course, it ultimately led to the pretreatment plant that’s in the process out here now, and the Waste Vitrification Plant. Bauman: You mentioned one of the reasons for doing the report was there were concerns about the integrity of the single-shell tanks. Were some of them leaking at that point, or just concerns that they might leak? Craig: I think at that point there were some that had displayed a little bit of leakage, yes. There’s other documents that showed some leakage, but, again it wasn’t into the concrete overpack, if you will. There was some, of course, got into the soil column, but it was not a series breach, and it wasn’t any radioactivity that got down into the groundwater. But we were afraid that it would. I mean, 1968, these tanks have been—the initial ones—had been built in 1944! ’45, ’46. So there was some that were approaching the end of life, and those tanks are still there today. And that’s why they’re so concerned about trying to remove some of the waste from these tanks and process it. Bauman: So, who initiated—was this ARCO or AEC that sort of initiated the study that you helped write? Craig: Oh, I think it was—collectively, the Hanford folks at engineering—folks on both sides of the contractor and the government were saying, we got to do something about this. Anyway, I think that’s about all I want to say about the creation of that document. I thought it would be interesting for you to look into if that ever showed up in the REACH literature as the kickoff document to get this thing going. Bauman: Right, right. Yeah. And did you continue to be involved after this report in some of the tank—waste management end of things? Craig: Yes. Actually, I had some side activities that I got into first. From 1968 to 1972, I was the plutonium leasing officer for the government. There was one in Oak Ridge for uranium, and I was the plutonium one for the US. And basically, what I was—what we did is we created a lease document, so the 125 commercial organizations, 40 government agencies, and about 450 colleges and universities could have plutonium material. And we would, in effect, rent it to them for a use charge. Wasn’t very expensive, but it was a charge. More importantly, if they lost any of it, they had to pay for it. The largest users of that lease program were the two reactor fuel contractors. One of them was Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation in Apollo, Pennsylvania. And the other one was Kerr-McGee in Oklahoma. They made reactor fuels for the breeder program at Oak Ridge, and the Fast Flux Test Facility here. Bauman: Oh, okay. Interesting. Craig: So that was a way for them to have this material. For the next nine years, I continued to be involved with the PUREX and Z Plant, and the management of both site materials—all of the different types of materials that we had: uranium, and plutonium, and so on. And those materials were about $500,000 to $750,000 in value. I’m sorry, $500 to $750 million in value. But it was a management process. Then later on, from 1981 to 1985, I was able to be involved in the last big development program that I had while I was working for the government. It was called the Spent Fuel Management Program. Now, during this time, the AEC had been in charge—prior to this time, the AEC had been in charge of both the Defense orientation of radioactive materials, and also the development of commercial power reactors. And there was a political hue and cry from about 19—let’s see—1974, I think it was—that the commercial reactor stuff should go to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, a new agency. And then, of course, a few years after that, about 1978 I think it was, the—oh, by the way, when the NRC was created, they changed the name of AEC. It became ERDA: Energy Research and Development Administration. And then about four years later, they changed it again to the Department of Energy. Well, now we had the government on our side—DoE had an obligation to kind of help the nuclear power industry deal with the long-term disposal of their spent fuel. I mean, as the fuel is burned up in their reactor and is no longer useful, eventually it was going to be encapsulated and sent off to Yucca Mountain. Well, until Yucca Mountain got authorized and built, then they needed an interim storage, and so we developed a concept called the at-reactor spent fuel storage. Several of us—myself and somebody from NRC, and somebody from Battelle, the contract who was working with me, and somebody from the Electric Power Research Institute, representing the power industry—I think that’s about it—we all went off to observe some dry storage in casks in Germany. We brought that technology back to the United States. We worked with the NRC to get it licensed. And now the power reactors of this country are using at-reactor storage in basically steel containers that contain the spent fuel and are just sitting on concrete pads, and the radioactive decay heat is dissipated into the surrounding environment. But all the radioactivity is very well contained in these casks. Hopefully, eventually Yucca Mountain will open. It was part of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act that I was involved with in those days. The whole purpose of this act was to create a long-term disposal. And NRC was involved in licensing that long-term disposal, and the nuclear power industry was to pay a fee for all this fuel that they were generating to help pay for this. Well, then all this got stopped because of the politics of Nevada and the—it’s going to be restarted, because there was a lawsuit that was settled recently that said that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act should be followed. Bauman: Right. So, you were involved with that in— Craig: I was involved in— Bauman: About ’85? Craig: --all that kind of stuff. Bauman: Right. Craig: Yes. And then I left the—at that point, this will be—okay, you can go back on. At that point in 1985, I left the government, went private, went to work for a packaging—an engineering and design company that designed high-level waste shipping containers for use on transportation. They started off—their first big project was the Three Mile Island cask, to move that waste. And then from that, I marketed to the government a high-level waste—any kind of high-level waste that could be put into a cask and removed. And then the TRUPACT-II cask for use in transferring transuranic waste, or primarily plutonium waste, from the government sites to the waste isolation pilot plant in Carlsbad, New Mexico. And from there, I got involved on a couple of other organizations. Eventually, in 1991, I went to work for Lockheed. In 1996, Lockheed, along with—well, Fluor Daniel was the primary contractor, but we were on the Fluor Daniel team, and Lockheed was to manage the Tank Farms. So we came full circle, and I helped Lockheed win that contract. Bauman: Right, you did come full circle. Craig: So then, Lockheed moved me from—I was then living in Federal Way, and Lockheed rewarded me by moving me back to Hanford and letting me work on the Hanford site in ’96. And I did that until December of 2000. And there I was involved in the new contracting method. Instead of cost-plus-fixed-fee contracting, it was cost-plus-incentive-fee. And what we would do was we would create a document for a scope of work, a performance agreement. And the contractor would say, here, DoE, this is what we’re going to do for you, and here’s how long it’s going to take. And DoE said, okay, if you do that, we’ll pay you this fee, and if you don’t get it done on time, we’re going to cut your fee. And if you don’t do it well, we’re going to cut your fee. And my job was to, at the end of the work performance, was to write up the actual work done in a document to present to DoE that says, okay, pay us the fee. We were very successful in getting our award fee. And then I gave it all up in December of 2000, after 43 years. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Craig: Cut. Bauman: That’s a long, fascinating career. Can I ask you questions, kind of go back? Craig: Yeah, there’s a couple of transition spots I’m kind of worried about, that I kind of sound like an idiot. Bauman: No. Craig: I want to—is there any editing we can do? Bauman: Oh, yeah, don’t worry about it. If there’s any issue we can go back to it later. It’s not a problem. I wonder if I can go back—and this is really interesting stuff, fascinating career. I wanted to ask you just about the community, when you arrived here in 1957, what was Richland like at the time? Could you talk about that a little bit? And did you live in Richland, or--? Craig: Oh, yes. Yes. We were allowed to rent from the government a B house—half of a B house on Haupt. This was June 1957. And by then—a couple of months—the government started selling off the town to private citizens. And we were in the first block to be sold. The senior owners in the other end of the B house bought the B house. And at that time, we moved to the other side of town, into a ranch house, because that had been sold to its owner. This is kind of an interesting—are you recording? Bauman: Yeah. Craig: Oh, okay. This was kind of interesting, because the ranch house that the owner—I mean the resident who was able to buy it bought for like $7,700. And then when we bought the ranch house, I think we paid like $9,500. And of course, those ranch houses today sell for over 100. The town was very—initially of course, it was very caste-oriented. I mean, if you were a contractor, management, you got to live on the river. If you were a lowly government GS-7, you got to live in a B house. And there was a certain level of, you know, if you weren’t in this class, you weren’t part of it, you know. And I think that’s changed dramatically over the years. It doesn’t make any difference who you work for and how much money you make and all that stuff. People have changed for the better. Bauman: Anything else about the community that stood out to you at the time? Craig: Well, the first thing that Richland did was they had to celebrate their founding as Richland. They set off a mock atomic bomb, and it was a bunch of fanfare out in the park, and made a poof of smoke that was to represent a mushroom cloud. Bauman: So, was this at Howard Amon Park? Craig: Yeah. It was. Bauman: Anything else that—memories that stand out, either about in community of Richland, or your work—any stories or memories that really stand out to you that you’d like to share? Craig: I think I’m kind of— Bauman: Good? [LAUGHTER] Craig: Completed. Bauman: All right, well I want to thank you very much. This was really interesting. I appreciate you coming in and sharing stories about your work, and all that you did out there. I really appreciate it. Craig: Well, you’re more than welcome. I feel confident that this waste document that shows particularly how much plutonium was made, that was a very revolutionary thing. I mean, the idea how much of material you got out of a ton of uranium was— Bauman: Right. Craig: Very classified. And to see that declassified and whatnot. It’s— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Craig: Kind of mind-blowing. But there’s the document. And it’s legitimate to talk about. Bauman: Right. Craig: Not sure I want it on the local news tonight, but—[LAUGHTER] [VIDEO CUTS] Craig: Details, but I know that he was— Bauman: Yeah. So, just let me know when you’re ready, all right? We can— Craig: So this was August, ’76. I don’t know the exact date. Bauman: That’s all right. I mean, the exact date we have, so— Man one: Okay, we are ready. Bauman: Just whatever memories or knowledge you have about it. Man one: We’re rolling. Whenever you’re ready. Bauman: Okay. So I don’t know if you want to talk to us about the McCluskey incident and your involvement in that? Craig: Well, at the time, I was responsible for the Z Plant operations. And so, one morning, early, about 4:30 in the morning, I get a call from the plant that there had been an accident out of the plant, and I needed to get out there. And so I threw some clothes on and got a government car and went out to the site. What had happened was the plant had been operating on the recovery of americium-241 as part of the reclamation activities. And it was a chemical process. Inside this chemical process were criticalities tanks, small tanks like this, long, inside of a glovebox. Earlier in that summer, there had been a labor dispute, and the plant was on strike. And so the process had been shut down. Well, what was going on was americium was loaded onto the ion exchange medium inside this long column. When the dispute was settled and we had several days of reviews, conducting interviews with the contractor people, are you ready to restart? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? And finally they were authorized to start. Well, what happened is that when they poured strong nitric acid on that ion exchange column to take, you lose off the americium. The americium had decayed the resin beads of the ion exchange medium ‘til it was kind of an organic gunk. And that acid reacted with it, and that violent chemical reaction blew open that column. It breached the glovebox, and it sprayed chemicals and americium all over Mr. McCluskey. And he was taken to an initial decontamination spot onsite, and then downtown. But my job, when I got there, was to fend off the media. What had happened—as soon as this became knowledge, and the media got hold of it, here they come in helicopters, landing inside the secure area of 200 West. The guards were going nuts. I mean, here’s these people that are not supposed to be there! Eventually, they didn’t do anything but try to manage it and bring them over towards the building, the end of the building, where behind the building walls was this processing cell where everything had taken place. And they were standing there, I was standing there outside talking to the media, trying to explain what happened. And I had an alpha copy machine. I was standing there, showing them that there was no contamination on my feet, there was no contamination around. They were panning everywhere with their cameras, and they found a sodium hydroxide feed tank that had just a little bit of salt cake around the valve on the outside. Non-radioactive, nothing—I mean it was a nothing tank. And they filmed that like it was the biggest thing since sliced bread. And I remember I went through all this and—to find out that it made the national news. But I didn’t get to see it, because I was out there. [LAUGHTER] But it became a non-event. It was not a disaster, there was containment, there was—all the safety things worked as well as they should. The public was never in any harm. But that was a— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So, what happened, then, with the room, or whatever, where the incident took place? Craig: Oh, they sealed that room off right away. And then it remained sealed up until very recently, when they went in and took it apart. And processed it for disposal. Bauman: Did you know Mr. McCluskey at all? Craig: No. Bauman: Okay. Craig: No. He was a chemical operator. I didn’t know who he was, hadn’t met him. But it was one of those things that— Bauman: Right. Craig: --Happened. Bauman: Well, thanks, again for sharing that story. Glad we remembered to do that. Craig: What was funny about it—I was trying to stand up. I used to be able to do this. I could stand there and hold my foot up and balance. And then I realized I couldn’t do that. Bauman: Oh, watch the microphone there on your— Craig: Oh, yeah. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:54:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 189 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Plant Waste Vitrification Plant Z Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1957-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1957-2015 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy Sam Beard Bob McCullough Kerr-McGee Fluor Daniel Mr. McCluskey Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Craig Description An account of the resource An interview with Philip Craig conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06-24-2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-29-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 703 Building Atomic Energy Commission B Plant Battelle Department of Energy Event Fast Flux Test Facility General Electric Hanford Kennedy Mountain Nuclear Regulatory Commission Park Plutonium PUREX River Savannah River Tank Farm Tank Farms Vitrification Plant Waste Vitrification Plant Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F41ed1944539f7a611cae2a3687039749.jpg fdf3d12b1c9348b5eba7ef7ca026f7d0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d8ef50fbd03339513c424bb13096518.mp4 bafe880d0de64b50b85a01552c774847 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ray Coffin Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Coffin Description An account of the resource An interview with Ray Coffin conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fae6130413e7ae36fc7c5f101e7fedd21.jpg 3cdc68a43f498b02735ccaa53fca9a14 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb4456284af8e319cb2f34ebdbb560d45.mp4 685af0ac7d3745bdad5ec2359f14e49f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ray Deranleau Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Northwest Public Television | D_Henry_Raymond </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Robert Bauman: Okay. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. And I'm going to start by having you say your name, and spell it for us, please. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Ray Deranleau: Ray De-- are you ready? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Ray Deranleau, D-E-R-A-N-L-E-A-U, R-A-Y on the first name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Great, thank you. And today's date is September 3rd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you talk about your family--how they came, how, when, why they came to the area here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, my folks come here in 1930. And at that time, there was just six kids left in the house. The three older ones had grown up. And they more or less, I think, starved out--they were up at Genesee, Idaho. And the price of wheat wasn't anything, and they just kind of went broke up there. They moved down here, and, of course, we farmed down here, but that was altogether different. Dad had been a dry land farmer, but he had to learn the irrigation thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know how he heard about Richland, or any of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I think he just put the place up for sale and the real estate person, Carl Williams, who was in Kennewick for a long time, handled it. I know that. And I suppose that's how it happened. I was about--I was six--or, five when we moved here. So, a lot of that up there, I don't recall even. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And what were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Henry and Elizabeth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so where was your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, it was right across the ditch from where Battelle is, headed west. It was across that ditch. And if you are familiar with that, there was an old school—Vale School, up there at one time. And Dad had 33 acres, and that seven acres was out of that original 40. So we were right adjacent to that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Okay. Who were some of your neighbors, or people who lived closest to you, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, Pete Hansen lived right next to us. And then, across the ditch, was Hultgrenn. Were the two closest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on the far? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had--towards the last, we had a little mint--peppermint. And we had quite a few grapes, but most folks didn't raise grapes like Dad did. And, of course, we had hay and asparagus, and strawberries. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And growing up on the farm, did you have particular chores or responsibilities that were yours? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Hell yeah. We milked cows, and just all the stuff that went with it. Cut asparagus. We'd get up as soon as you could see to cut asparagus in the spring. That was always a cash crop that made a little money for everybody that--and of course, it was early. It'd give them a chance to have some money to pay the water bill, and stuff like that. So that was a good crop then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know where the crops were sold? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they were sold mostly at Kennewick. And some things at Pasco, but mostly at Kennewick. Ours was, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to ask you also, about your farm, were there other buildings besides the house itself on the property? What other buildings were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, yeah, we had a barn, and a little shed that, I suppose at one time, had been kind of an open end garage type thing. But most of that stuff was so worn out that you could throw a cat through it somewhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So when you bought the place, it was something that someone else had already owned? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: There was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Someone else had already owned the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, Dad got that place from the ditch company. And he just moved on there for no payment at all. And of course, the reasoning behind that was if they had people farming, they were buying their water. So they were better off just to let you set on there. And of course, eventually, he paid for it. But that's when they moved on that thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: And it was awful run down, to begin with. Whoever was on there ahead of us didn't do much farming. They just-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know how old the place was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It had been there for a while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, it was older than I was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And what about electricity? Did you have electricity there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] We got electricity there. And at that time that, PP&L was in here, which was Pacific Power and Light. And they wouldn't give you electricity until the ERA came in, and then they were right there to give you some, if they could. But they had to run a line in from Stevens, you know, where I live, there. And that was probably, what, a block and a half maybe. But anyway--and then they went to our neighbors. And we had to buy electric stoves. And I suppose--I know we bought them from them, and I don't know if we had to or not. And just a deal where you pay a nickel down, pay the rest your life, type thing. And I suppose they got a dang good shafting on the price of that stove. I don't know that, but common sense tells me that. But that's the way electricity was then. And like I said, boy, they weren't very helpful until the ERA came in, and made all the difference in the world. REA, I guess it is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: REA, right. And did that happen sometime after you arrived, the REA? Probably, yeah-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. Roosevelt, I think, went in in, what, in '32? And so we went there in '30. And we moved on to that place, I would say, in '35. And I could be off a year or two. It was the second place where we first lived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Okay, so where did you live before that, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: We lived just off of Van Giesen, and right in there close to where that little shoplifting center is, there on Van Giesen. If you know much about the history of this place, there was a house there, and they called it Officer's--Officer's something. And I can't say the word I want to. But anyway, it was a big, nice house, and they had left that for quite a while before they ever tore it down. I think they moved it to West Richland eventually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So that's where you lived initially, and then you moved to the place-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So that's where you lived for about five years? '30, '35, and then you moved to the second place? Okay. And what about telephone? Did you have a telephone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. We had a telephone. My dad was on the ditch board--the water board. There were three other people around there. And then they had a guy running it. In fact, Fletcher--his dad run that. And he had to have a telephone because of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I suppose we wouldn't have had a telephone as quick as we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that a party line, sort of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, yeah. Yeah, then about that time, too, we switched over from horses to a tractor. So that was kind of a change in farming for us a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So initially you had horses for all the work on the farm? Do you remember what kind of tractor you got? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, we had an F-12, Farmall tractor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So what about the town of Richland itself? What do you remember about the town during the 1930s? Any businesses, or things that you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, there was a couple of grocery stores, and a couple of gas stations. You could buy little candy bars, and stuff like that at those gas stations. And there was a hardware--good hardware store. And I probably missed some of them, but there wasn't much here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did you have a radio, or--how did you get news? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a radio. It worked part of the time. [LAUGHTER] One of those deals where everybody had his damn ear down into the--trying to hear it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you remember listening to any shows, or anything in particular on the radio when you were growing up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh yeah, we used to listen to Jimmy Allen. And of course, Dad listened to the news. So we'd listen to that, too. But Jimmy Allen, and, oh, Amos and Andy. We'd listen to that. And I don't remember what else. Not much, we didn't listen to it a lot. It wasn't very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What about newspaper? Was there a newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, we always had the Spokesman Review. There wasn't any local papers at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to ask you about school. What school did you go to? And do you have any specific memories about school, teachers or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a pretty good little school, if we'd have tried to learn something. And some of us wasn't too interested in that, to be real frank with you. And I was one of them--hell, I thought I knew everything there was to know at 15. But really, we didn't have a bad school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How did you get to school? Was there a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, went on a school bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that a sort of regular school bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was? Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, they had certain routes. There were about--I would say maybe five of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Were there any teachers that you particularly remember from your years of school in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, no, not really. We had some good ones and some bad ones. But I don't like to badmouth some of them. And especially the kind of student I was. If I'd have had me, I'd have killed me. Just to be real frank with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What's a recreational activities? What did you do for fun growing up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we played ball, and we fished, and just kind of entertained ourselves. We worked a lot, really. When kids were old enough to work--and if you had any spare time, Dad would go out and buy another 20 acres, just about what it boiled to with those old guys. You know, if they had boys especially, they were out looking for more land. [LAUGHTER] Which was a way of life at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember any community events? Any-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we used to go to grange meetings. And they'd have two a month. And one of them would be a social thing, and at that one, they'd serve a little sandwich and coffee, and they'd have dances. You'd just volunteer a band, so that was pretty neat. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Where were the grange meetings held? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: The Grange Hall was right up where the Lutheran church is, here in Richland, on Van Giesen--or, yeah, Van Giesen and Stevens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So I assume your father was a member of the grange. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was he part of any other organizations? You mentioned the irrigation, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, not really. We went to church when we had gas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What church did you go to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Catholic. And we'd have to go to Kennewick for that. There wasn't any Catholic church here. In fact, there was one church, and I think they called it Community Methodist. And pretty near all the protestants would go there. And maybe they'd have a Methodist preacher for a while, and if he starved out, the next one could be Lutheran, or whatever, you know. You just kind of, in those days, did with what you had. And they pretty much had a Seventh Day Adventist little church there, too. There wasn't many members, but they would have meetings there, on Saturday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Were there a number of families that went to the Catholic church in Kennewick from Richland, who lived there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, I don't think there was a half a dozen. Maybe something like that. Of course, them Catholics, in those days, had lots of kids, and more kids than the rest of them. So we could kind of outnumber them. We didn't need--if we had families, we had groups. [LAUGHTER] We had one Catholic bunch, lived out there on the river. And I think they had 17 or 19 kids, somebody said. And in those days, it wasn't unusual for children to die at childbirth. And they had some where they'd lose one--they'd just name another one the same name. And I always thought that was kind of weird, but I know they did that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: You mentioned playing ball growing up. Did you play sports in school at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we played softball. We didn't have any football--we didn't have a football team. We didn't have any material for it. And we didn't play baseball, either. They had a local baseball team--we'd call it a town team. And everybody, whoever wanted to--and then they had some pretty decent players on that darn thing, for those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How about basketball? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a high school basketball team. And that was the size of that. I don't remember anybody other than just--well, maybe in grade school or middle school, you could play around then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So you arrived here in about 1930— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: --the years of the Great Depression. Wondering ways in which the Depression sort of impacted people here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, we were poor as church mice, you know. But everybody else was the same way. Hell, when I went in the service in '43, I had better conditions in the service than I had at home. And like I said, everybody was poor, so I thought that's the way everybody was. And they were, around here--most of them, some of them were better off than others, naturally. But it was pretty hard times for everybody. We didn't ever--went hungry, or anything like that. I don't mean to imply that. But, boy, we worked from the time were about 11 and 12 in the fields. And after we got a little older, we could hire out, if we got a chance. We'd get enough money for our school clothes that way. And it didn't take much--of course, we didn't get much either. You'd get maybe two bits an hour, you know. And boy, I'll tell you--that was work in those days, too. Picking up potatoes, and things like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to go back to school. So what year did you graduate high school, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: '42. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And how many people were in your class? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I think there was just eight of us, or maybe a dozen. I don't know, they got to--I think Edith maybe brought you that picture of that group. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Yeah, small group. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: And some of us--I remember, one old teacher that--he was always talking about our sheepskins, when we graduated. And I said something about my sheepskin one day. And he said, yours won't have any fleece on it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. I think about that school--what a waste of my time and theirs. It was all my fault, I'm not blaming anybody but myself. But it was a fact. It was just stupid that I didn't want to learn more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And you mentioned you joined the service in '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, right after they--as soon as they got the notice here, I started. I had two brothers in the service at the time. And there were four of us in there, before it was over with. And everybody was in the service. And I just felt like I should be in, and I didn't have the guts to leave. And dad wasn't any spring chicken. So I hated to leave before—But once they got rid of that farm-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So tell me about when you notice from the government about needing to leave. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we got we got notice from the government on March 3, and they just told us that our place-- condemned our places, and was taking them. And we got our notice a little bit before noon, in the mail. And I was plowing a field out there. And I came in for lunch, and they were, of course, telling me about it. And after I ate, I went back out and cranked up that tractor. And I bet I hadn't been plowing an hour and a half, and somebody called up there, and told them to get that tractor out of that field. I don't know who called, or any more about it than--the deal was you couldn't find out anything. And looking back, you understand why. But you sure didn't in those days. And then, the bad thing about that--it put all those farmers on the market for a new place, and immediately the land went up. And they weren't offering a lot. And a lot of the people didn't accept--they sued for it. And they did better. And Mr. Fletcher--Robert's dad--was involved in that. And, of course, there was an attorney that they had naturally--or, normally up there. And he handled the case--Lionel Powell, from Kennewick, who was an attorney. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How did your parents respond to the letter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, confused--everybody was. I guess they just finally told us that it was a government thing, and it was a secret. And they wouldn't--couldn't tell us, and they kind of accepted that. But first, they just were going to run you out of there, without any kind of explanation at all. And we never did get--it was world news when we found out that Richland was part of the atomic bomb thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So what happened with your parents, then? They sold the land-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they settled in Kennewick, and Dad bought a couple little places there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How long were they given to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, boy. They extended the time to get off of there. I think probably it was fall before the folks left. And then, a lot of those crops, they had the prisoner of war camp, out on the Yakima there. And they had those prisoners in there, taking care of some of those crops. Because I remember a couple of them working up there in the grapes at our place. And one of them asked the other one why he was in the slammer. And he said he was a letter writer. Anyway, he forged checks. [LAUGHTER] He said he was a letter writer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that camp--that camp was in existence for a while, before '43, there? The prisoner of war camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: It was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was there before '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I don't know. I don't think so. I think they put it up, but boy, they had people. They just put something like that up overnight. I'll bet it didn't take them two weeks to put the dang thing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And you said your parents then bought a place in Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: A farm, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they bought a little place down on the corner of 19th and Washington. There was a credit union there for a while, and they're gone from there. I don't know what's in there now. But industry's moved that far down in there. And of course, that was all farming. That was one thing about the farms, too, in Richland. So many of them--now, we were up on just sagebrush bordered us. There was always land there, available, if you had the time to get it. In fact, Dad would--he'd water some of that--was watering some of those. He'd put in rye grass, because it'd stand the wind. It was hearty, you know? And he'd water. And he was figuring on getting two or three years of rye grass in that, to hold that sand a little bit, and then buying that. And it was things like that that they'd do. And they were pretty loose with--the ditch company, as long as they had water, they'd let them do things like that. But the ditch company owned a lot of Richland. I thought back a lot of times, and wondered, between the Federal Land Bank and the ditch company, what percentage of these little areas--and we weren't unique on that. All you had to do was go down the road to the next one--it was the same thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: You talk about irrigation. How did the irrigation system work? I mean, what sort of irrigation pipes-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: It was all real irrigation--ditches. Little ditches. We never heard of a sprinkler system, at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was there cement pipes, at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, well, yeah. Some of it was open ditch, and some of it was pipes. And some of it was even what they call continuous pipe. And I had never seen them make that. But the inside out of it--there wasn't any joints, and they had something they'd drag through the middle of it, put the cement around it, and then pull that. That's how they had to do. I never seen them do it. It wasn't very good. It wasn't as good as a good concrete pipe. And, of course, people, as they could, they were improving on that kind of stuff. Getting rid of that kind of junk, and putting in better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So do you remember what your, or your parents', feelings were about--were you upset about having to move off the land? Angry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they were all probably angry, and confused, more than angry, I think. Because just imagine--getting a letter that you--and on those farms, it was--every month of the year, there was something to do. In winter, you had more cows to milk, and stuff like that. So it wasn't where you had a lot of time off, or anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So do you remember where you were when you heard about what was happening at the Hanford site? About what was being built, and used for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, I really don't. I was in Europe, and I come home--and they gave us a 30 day furlough. And we'd seen just enough combat that we'd been good candidates for over in Japan. And I think that was what they were figuring on. But anyway, I was on a train going back to South Carolina, where I had to report back to. And we were up in Montana, and the conductor come through there, and told us that they had dropped those bombs, and that the war was over. And I think that's the first time I ever knew what Hanford really did--as near as I remember, at least. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you remember your response when he came through and told you this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, I hate to sound like an idiot, but we were playing poker--a bunch of us--and we were more interested in the poker game. And--it was almost disbelief, I think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so how much longer were you in the service, then? When did you come back to the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, after that, I would say I was in the service five, six months. And we moved around a lot. I was in a chemical warfare outfit. It was a mortar outfit. We had big mortars, and were designed to shoot gas, if we had to. That's why we were in the chemical end of it. But we also had high explosives that we shot. And we would be attached to the infantry. But I don't know really how long we was. Here again, I went back to--I was in 89th Chemical. And when I got back to Colorado, I went over to where it was supposed to be, and--nothing there. So I saw another chemical outfit, right next door--90th. So I went over there. And I happened to walk right into the same company that I'd been assigned to. We'd all been assigned to that, and we didn't even know it. And I'll never forget the First Sergeant in there. He told me where to go, what barracks I could bunk in. So I went up to that barracks, and it was full. And I came back, and I said, that barracks is full, up there, I said. He said, go up and throw one of those guys out of there, and get a bunk. And I said, you go up and throw him out. [LAUGHTER] And that guy took a liking to me. And he was the biggest horse's neck ever to come down the pike. He was a hobo that had found it in the Army, and he was re-enlisted. But he was kind of a weird booger. But anyway, he took a liking to me. And hell, I could just get away with anything after that. It was kind of weird. Some of the guys used to razz me about being his buddy. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, we were doing a lot of moving around. They were just shifting everybody. We went down through Texas, and they brought us up to San Francisco for Army Day Parade. We looped around on those damn hills down there a lot. My wife told me I wasn't supposed to cuss, too, didn't she? But anyway, we were moving around a lot, and then finally ended up at Fort Lewis, where they booted us out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know, after your parents left the farm, do you know if it was torn down right away? Or did the government use it for anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, ours was, I'm sure, because it was just a shack. And most of them were like that. And it was just the better houses that they kept for folks--like that one I was telling you, Officer's Club is what they called that house over there, where we first lived. And houses like that, they kept them around to put people in. But boy, I'll tell you, some of those houses around here, you could throw a cat through the wall of them--they didn't amount to much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you have--are there any memories of growing up in Richland that really stand out to you? Any sort of humorous events, or things that you remember from growing up here, that really stand out to you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, boy. Well, [LAUGHTER] I remember one time, a bunch of us went up to Brown's island. And that's about maybe eight, nine miles up the Colombia from here. And, of course, in those days, all those dams weren't in there and that was free water. And if you knew where to go, you could wade over to that in the summer. And if you didn't, you'd have to swim a little. But a bunch of us went up there. Anyway, we camped up there for pretty near a week. And we just hunted and fished, and loafed around there. But anyway, there was a little shack on this side of the river. And we'd come back, and I don't know whether we were getting ready to leave, or just that morning, we were maybe going to hunt rabbits or something. But we all had .22s. And one of those kids shot up into the corner of that damn thing, towards the ceiling. And that bullet--we tracked it afterwards, and it went down the ridgepole of that little shack, just probably that far. And hit a nail, and it dropped down on one of the kids' neck. Now, it just dropped, I think. But anyway, it burned his neck, and it just rolled off, you know. And I remember, he said, I'm shot! [LAUGHTER] We didn't pay any attention to him. And he said, I'm shot, you damn fools! [LAUGHTER] It just boiled down that that had just rolled there, but just a strange thing. It hit a knot, to begin with, and turned and went right up that ridgepole about two inches. And then, by that time, that little .22 was spent. But anyway [LAUGHTER] he was pretty excited, because he thought he was killed, and we didn't pay any attention to him. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I'm wondering, anything you--or, what do you think would be important for people to know about what it was like growing up in a small community of Richland in the 1930s, 1940s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, really, it was pretty good, because everybody knew everybody. And everybody associated with one another. There wasn't anybody that was left out, really. And like I said, we were all poor as church mice, but we thought that was the way the whole world was. And like I said, I don't think there were any of us around that went hungry. I really don't. Folks would can, and they canned everything. I remember one year, I had three sisters that were going to get married in the fall. And those girls and mom canned for their families to be, and our family. And they would can in those old wash boilers. And I don't know if you've ever seen that done, but what they'd do is put a little rack in the bottom that was made out of cedar. And it had holes bored about like that, so that the water could circulate through it. But those jars wouldn't sit right on where it was so ungodly hot. And they put those in there, and then boil them for a couple hours to seal those—but they’d put up even meat, my folks did. And mom, even, would can butter a time or two. Now, she didn't heat it, you know--she'd put it in salt water, and put it in those jars. And then, we'd open that when, I guess, when we didn't have butter otherwise. I don't really know. I think she just did that one year. But they'd put up all kinds of vegetables and fruit. And everybody had some of that, and you'd trade around. Or if people had surplus, they'd just give it to you. There was a lot of that, because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was a way to preserve things for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was a ways to preserve things-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. And folks would also put up pork. And put so much salt you couldn't eat it hardly, and you'd have to soak it for a week before you could get close enough to it to eat it. [LAUGHTER] But we always--Dad would kill a steer in the fall. And we'd give some of that, probably, to the kids. Maybe they'd kill one later, and we'd get part of that, and stuff like that. Or neighbors-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So it was very much a community, everyone-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: --sort of shared, and worked together. Well, any other things that we haven't talked about yet, that you remember, or that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today, and for sharing your memories and experiences. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: You betcha. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1930-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano) 1882-1945 Williams, Carl Hanson, Pete Powell, Lionel Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:37:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 252 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Deranleau Description An account of the resource An interview with Ray Deranleau conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/3/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-25: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash) Richland (Wash.)--Politics and government. Fishing Kennewick (Wash.) Pacific Power and Light Company Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fff380e39103fa01178d8e1059e1573c9.JPG ec132b0727e3f0d01ff595ff8ac6c9ec https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5a56b59e81d95070c7376fcc8d6d65fd.mp4 f22765f72beab82ec380fe201952ab1b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ray Deranleau Location The location of the interview Washington State University, Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | D_Henry_Raymond Robert Bauman: Okay. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. And I'm going to start by having you say your name, and spell it for us, please. Ray Deranleau: Ray De-- are you ready? Bauman: Yep. Deranleau: Ray Deranleau, D-E-R-A-N-L-E-A-U, R-A-Y on the first name. Bauman: Great, thank you. And today's date is September 3rd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you talk about your family--how they came, how, when, why they came to the area here. Deranleau: Well, my folks come here in 1930. And at that time, there was just six kids left in the house. The three older ones had grown up. And they more or less, I think, starved out--they were up at Genesee, Idaho. And the price of wheat wasn't anything, and they just kind of went broke up there. They moved down here, and, of course, we farmed down here, but that was altogether different. Dad had been a dry land farmer, but he had to learn the irrigation thing. Bauman: Do you know how he heard about Richland, or any of that? Deranleau: I think he just put the place up for sale and the real estate person, Carl Williams, who was in Kennewick for a long time, handled it. I know that. And I suppose that's how it happened. I was about--I was six--or, five when we moved here. So, a lot of that up there, I don't recall even. Bauman: And what were your parents' names? Deranleau: Henry and Elizabeth. Bauman: And so where was your farm? Deranleau: Well, it was right across the ditch from where Battelle is, headed west. It was across that ditch. And if you are familiar with that, there was an old school—Vale School, up there at one time. And Dad had 33 acres, and that seven acres was out of that original 40. So we were right adjacent to that. Bauman: Okay. Who were some of your neighbors, or people who lived closest to you, then? Deranleau: Well, Pete Hansen lived right next to us. And then, across the ditch, was Hultgrenn. Were the two closest. Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on the far? Deranleau: Well, we had--towards the last, we had a little mint--peppermint. And we had quite a few grapes, but most folks didn't raise grapes like Dad did. And, of course, we had hay and asparagus, and strawberries. Bauman: And growing up on the farm, did you have particular chores or responsibilities that were yours? Deranleau: Hell yeah. We milked cows, and just all the stuff that went with it. Cut asparagus. We'd get up as soon as you could see to cut asparagus in the spring. That was always a cash crop that made a little money for everybody that--and of course, it was early. It'd give them a chance to have some money to pay the water bill, and stuff like that. So that was a good crop then. Bauman: Do you know where the crops were sold? Deranleau: Well, they were sold mostly at Kennewick. And some things at Pasco, but mostly at Kennewick. Ours was, anyway. Bauman: I want to ask you also, about your farm, were there other buildings besides the house itself on the property? What other buildings were there? Deranleau: Well, yeah, we had a barn, and a little shed that, I suppose at one time, had been kind of an open end garage type thing. But most of that stuff was so worn out that you could throw a cat through it somewhere. Bauman: So when you bought the place, it was something that someone else had already owned? Deranleau: There was what? Bauman: Someone else had already owned the place? Deranleau: No, Dad got that place from the ditch company. And he just moved on there for no payment at all. And of course, the reasoning behind that was if they had people farming, they were buying their water. So they were better off just to let you set on there. And of course, eventually, he paid for it. But that's when they moved on that thing. Bauman: Oh, okay. Deranleau: And it was awful run down, to begin with. Whoever was on there ahead of us didn't do much farming. They just-- Bauman: Do you know how old the place was? Deranleau: No. Bauman: It had been there for a while? Deranleau: Yeah, it was older than I was. Bauman: And what about electricity? Did you have electricity there? Deranleau: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] We got electricity there. And at that time that, PP&L was in here, which was Pacific Power and Light. And they wouldn't give you electricity until the ERA came in, and then they were right there to give you some, if they could. But they had to run a line in from Stevens, you know, where I live, there. And that was probably, what, a block and a half maybe. But anyway--and then they went to our neighbors. And we had to buy electric stoves. And I suppose--I know we bought them from them, and I don't know if we had to or not. And just a deal where you pay a nickel down, pay the rest your life, type thing. And I suppose they got a dang good shafting on the price of that stove. I don't know that, but common sense tells me that. But that's the way electricity was then. And like I said, boy, they weren't very helpful until the ERA came in, and made all the difference in the world. REA, I guess it is. Bauman: REA, right. And did that happen sometime after you arrived, the REA? Probably, yeah-- Deranleau: Yeah. Roosevelt, I think, went in in, what, in '32? And so we went there in '30. And we moved on to that place, I would say, in '35. And I could be off a year or two. It was the second place where we first lived. Bauman: Okay, so where did you live before that, then? Deranleau: We lived just off of Van Giesen, and right in there close to where that little shoplifting center is, there on Van Giesen. If you know much about the history of this place, there was a house there, and they called it Officer's--Officer's something. And I can't say the word I want to. But anyway, it was a big, nice house, and they had left that for quite a while before they ever tore it down. I think they moved it to West Richland eventually. Bauman: So that's where you lived initially, and then you moved to the place-- Deranleau: Pardon? Bauman: So that's where you lived for about five years? '30, '35, and then you moved to the second place? Okay. And what about telephone? Did you have a telephone? Deranleau: Yeah. We had a telephone. My dad was on the ditch board--the water board. There were three other people around there. And then they had a guy running it. In fact, Fletcher--his dad run that. And he had to have a telephone because of that. Bauman: Oh, okay. Deranleau: I suppose we wouldn't have had a telephone as quick as we did. Bauman: Was that a party line, sort of? Deranleau: Oh, yeah. Yeah, then about that time, too, we switched over from horses to a tractor. So that was kind of a change in farming for us a lot. Bauman: So initially you had horses for all the work on the farm? Do you remember what kind of tractor you got? Deranleau: Yeah, we had an F-12, Farmall tractor. Bauman: So what about the town of Richland itself? What do you remember about the town during the 1930s? Any businesses, or things that you-- Deranleau: Well, there was a couple of grocery stores, and a couple of gas stations. You could buy little candy bars, and stuff like that at those gas stations. And there was a hardware--good hardware store. And I probably missed some of them, but there wasn't much here. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did you have a radio, or--how did you get news? Deranleau: Well, we had a radio. It worked part of the time. [LAUGHTER] One of those deals where everybody had his damn ear down into the--trying to hear it. Bauman: Do you remember listening to any shows, or anything in particular on the radio when you were growing up? Deranleau: Oh yeah, we used to listen to Jimmy Allen. And of course, Dad listened to the news. So we'd listen to that, too. But Jimmy Allen, and, oh, Amos and Andy. We'd listen to that. And I don't remember what else. Not much, we didn't listen to it a lot. It wasn't very good. Bauman: What about newspaper? Was there a newspaper? Deranleau: Yeah, we always had the Spokesman Review. There wasn't any local papers at that time. Bauman: I want to ask you about school. What school did you go to? And do you have any specific memories about school, teachers or anything like that? Deranleau: Well, we had a pretty good little school, if we'd have tried to learn something. And some of us wasn't too interested in that, to be real frank with you. And I was one of them--hell, I thought I knew everything there was to know at 15. But really, we didn't have a bad school. Bauman: How did you get to school? Was there a bus? Deranleau: Yeah, went on a school bus. Bauman: Was that a sort of regular school bus? Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: It was? Okay. Deranleau: Yeah, they had certain routes. There were about--I would say maybe five of them. Bauman: Were there any teachers that you particularly remember from your years of school in Richland? Deranleau: Well, no, not really. We had some good ones and some bad ones. But I don't like to badmouth some of them. And especially the kind of student I was. If I'd have had me, I'd have killed me. Just to be real frank with you. Bauman: What's a recreational activities? What did you do for fun growing up? Deranleau: Well, we played ball, and we fished, and just kind of entertained ourselves. We worked a lot, really. When kids were old enough to work--and if you had any spare time, Dad would go out and buy another 20 acres, just about what it boiled to with those old guys. You know, if they had boys especially, they were out looking for more land. [LAUGHTER] Which was a way of life at that time. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember any community events? Any-- Deranleau: Well, we used to go to grange meetings. And they'd have two a month. And one of them would be a social thing, and at that one, they'd serve a little sandwich and coffee, and they'd have dances. You'd just volunteer a band, so that was pretty neat. Bauman: Where were the grange meetings held? Deranleau: The Grange Hall was right up where the Lutheran church is, here in Richland, on Van Giesen--or, yeah, Van Giesen and Stevens. Bauman: So I assume your father was a member of the grange. Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: Was he part of any other organizations? You mentioned the irrigation, right? Deranleau: No, not really. We went to church when we had gas. Bauman: What church did you go to? Deranleau: Catholic. And we'd have to go to Kennewick for that. There wasn't any Catholic church here. In fact, there was one church, and I think they called it Community Methodist. And pretty near all the protestants would go there. And maybe they'd have a Methodist preacher for a while, and if he starved out, the next one could be Lutheran, or whatever, you know. You just kind of, in those days, did with what you had. And they pretty much had a Seventh Day Adventist little church there, too. There wasn't many members, but they would have meetings there, on Saturday. Bauman: Were there a number of families that went to the Catholic church in Kennewick from Richland, who lived there? Deranleau: Oh, I don't think there was a half a dozen. Maybe something like that. Of course, them Catholics, in those days, had lots of kids, and more kids than the rest of them. So we could kind of outnumber them. We didn't need--if we had families, we had groups. [LAUGHTER] We had one Catholic bunch, lived out there on the river. And I think they had 17 or 19 kids, somebody said. And in those days, it wasn't unusual for children to die at childbirth. And they had some where they'd lose one--they'd just name another one the same name. And I always thought that was kind of weird, but I know they did that. Bauman: You mentioned playing ball growing up. Did you play sports in school at all? Deranleau: Well, we played softball. We didn't have any football--we didn't have a football team. We didn't have any material for it. And we didn't play baseball, either. They had a local baseball team--we'd call it a town team. And everybody, whoever wanted to--and then they had some pretty decent players on that darn thing, for those days. Bauman: How about basketball? Deranleau: Well, we had a high school basketball team. And that was the size of that. I don't remember anybody other than just--well, maybe in grade school or middle school, you could play around then. Bauman: So you arrived here in about 1930— Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: --the years of the Great Depression. Wondering ways in which the Depression sort of impacted people here. Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, we were poor as church mice, you know. But everybody else was the same way. Hell, when I went in the service in '43, I had better conditions in the service than I had at home. And like I said, everybody was poor, so I thought that's the way everybody was. And they were, around here--most of them, some of them were better off than others, naturally. But it was pretty hard times for everybody. We didn't ever--went hungry, or anything like that. I don't mean to imply that. But, boy, we worked from the time were about 11 and 12 in the fields. And after we got a little older, we could hire out, if we got a chance. We'd get enough money for our school clothes that way. And it didn't take much--of course, we didn't get much either. You'd get maybe two bits an hour, you know. And boy, I'll tell you--that was work in those days, too. Picking up potatoes, and things like that. Bauman: I want to go back to school. So what year did you graduate high school, then? Deranleau: '42. Bauman: And how many people were in your class? Deranleau: I think there was just eight of us, or maybe a dozen. I don't know, they got to--I think Edith maybe brought you that picture of that group. Bauman: Yeah, small group. Deranleau: And some of us--I remember, one old teacher that--he was always talking about our sheepskins, when we graduated. And I said something about my sheepskin one day. And he said, yours won't have any fleece on it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. I think about that school--what a waste of my time and theirs. It was all my fault, I'm not blaming anybody but myself. But it was a fact. It was just stupid that I didn't want to learn more. Bauman: And you mentioned you joined the service in '43? Deranleau: Yeah, right after they--as soon as they got the notice here, I started. I had two brothers in the service at the time. And there were four of us in there, before it was over with. And everybody was in the service. And I just felt like I should be in, and I didn't have the guts to leave. And dad wasn't any spring chicken. So I hated to leave before—But once they got rid of that farm-- Bauman: So tell me about when you notice from the government about needing to leave. Deranleau: Well, we got we got notice from the government on March 3, and they just told us that our place-- condemned our places, and was taking them. And we got our notice a little bit before noon, in the mail. And I was plowing a field out there. And I came in for lunch, and they were, of course, telling me about it. And after I ate, I went back out and cranked up that tractor. And I bet I hadn't been plowing an hour and a half, and somebody called up there, and told them to get that tractor out of that field. I don't know who called, or any more about it than--the deal was you couldn't find out anything. And looking back, you understand why. But you sure didn't in those days. And then, the bad thing about that--it put all those farmers on the market for a new place, and immediately the land went up. And they weren't offering a lot. And a lot of the people didn't accept--they sued for it. And they did better. And Mr. Fletcher--Robert's dad--was involved in that. And, of course, there was an attorney that they had naturally--or, normally up there. And he handled the case--Lionel Powell, from Kennewick, who was an attorney. Bauman: How did your parents respond to the letter? Deranleau: Well, confused--everybody was. I guess they just finally told us that it was a government thing, and it was a secret. And they wouldn't--couldn't tell us, and they kind of accepted that. But first, they just were going to run you out of there, without any kind of explanation at all. And we never did get--it was world news when we found out that Richland was part of the atomic bomb thing. Bauman: So what happened with your parents, then? They sold the land-- Deranleau: Well, they settled in Kennewick, and Dad bought a couple little places there. Bauman: How long were they given to leave? Deranleau: Oh, boy. They extended the time to get off of there. I think probably it was fall before the folks left. And then, a lot of those crops, they had the prisoner of war camp, out on the Yakima there. And they had those prisoners in there, taking care of some of those crops. Because I remember a couple of them working up there in the grapes at our place. And one of them asked the other one why he was in the slammer. And he said he was a letter writer. Anyway, he forged checks. [LAUGHTER] He said he was a letter writer. Bauman: Was that camp--that camp was in existence for a while, before '43, there? The prisoner of war camp? Deranleau: It was what? Bauman: It was there before '43? Deranleau: I don't know. I don't think so. I think they put it up, but boy, they had people. They just put something like that up overnight. I'll bet it didn't take them two weeks to put the dang thing up. Bauman: And you said your parents then bought a place in Kennewick? Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: A farm, or-- Deranleau: Well, they bought a little place down on the corner of 19th and Washington. There was a credit union there for a while, and they're gone from there. I don't know what's in there now. But industry's moved that far down in there. And of course, that was all farming. That was one thing about the farms, too, in Richland. So many of them--now, we were up on just sagebrush bordered us. There was always land there, available, if you had the time to get it. In fact, Dad would--he'd water some of that--was watering some of those. He'd put in rye grass, because it'd stand the wind. It was hearty, you know? And he'd water. And he was figuring on getting two or three years of rye grass in that, to hold that sand a little bit, and then buying that. And it was things like that that they'd do. And they were pretty loose with--the ditch company, as long as they had water, they'd let them do things like that. But the ditch company owned a lot of Richland. I thought back a lot of times, and wondered, between the Federal Land Bank and the ditch company, what percentage of these little areas--and we weren't unique on that. All you had to do was go down the road to the next one--it was the same thing. Bauman: You talk about irrigation. How did the irrigation system work? I mean, what sort of irrigation pipes-- Deranleau: It was all real irrigation--ditches. Little ditches. We never heard of a sprinkler system, at that time. Bauman: Was there cement pipes, at all? Deranleau: Oh, well, yeah. Some of it was open ditch, and some of it was pipes. And some of it was even what they call continuous pipe. And I had never seen them make that. But the inside out of it--there wasn't any joints, and they had something they'd drag through the middle of it, put the cement around it, and then pull that. That's how they had to do. I never seen them do it. It wasn't very good. It wasn't as good as a good concrete pipe. And, of course, people, as they could, they were improving on that kind of stuff. Getting rid of that kind of junk, and putting in better. Bauman: So do you remember what your, or your parents', feelings were about--were you upset about having to move off the land? Angry? Deranleau: Well, they were all probably angry, and confused, more than angry, I think. Because just imagine--getting a letter that you--and on those farms, it was--every month of the year, there was something to do. In winter, you had more cows to milk, and stuff like that. So it wasn't where you had a lot of time off, or anything. Bauman: So do you remember where you were when you heard about what was happening at the Hanford site? About what was being built, and used for? Deranleau: No, I really don't. I was in Europe, and I come home--and they gave us a 30 day furlough. And we'd seen just enough combat that we'd been good candidates for over in Japan. And I think that was what they were figuring on. But anyway, I was on a train going back to South Carolina, where I had to report back to. And we were up in Montana, and the conductor come through there, and told us that they had dropped those bombs, and that the war was over. And I think that's the first time I ever knew what Hanford really did--as near as I remember, at least. Bauman: Do you remember your response when he came through and told you this? Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, I hate to sound like an idiot, but we were playing poker--a bunch of us--and we were more interested in the poker game. And--it was almost disbelief, I think. Bauman: And so how much longer were you in the service, then? When did you come back to the area? Deranleau: Oh, after that, I would say I was in the service five, six months. And we moved around a lot. I was in a chemical warfare outfit. It was a mortar outfit. We had big mortars, and were designed to shoot gas, if we had to. That's why we were in the chemical end of it. But we also had high explosives that we shot. And we would be attached to the infantry. But I don't know really how long we was. Here again, I went back to--I was in 89th Chemical. And when I got back to Colorado, I went over to where it was supposed to be, and--nothing there. So I saw another chemical outfit, right next door--90th. So I went over there. And I happened to walk right into the same company that I'd been assigned to. We'd all been assigned to that, and we didn't even know it. And I'll never forget the First Sergeant in there. He told me where to go, what barracks I could bunk in. So I went up to that barracks, and it was full. And I came back, and I said, that barracks is full, up there, I said. He said, go up and throw one of those guys out of there, and get a bunk. And I said, you go up and throw him out. [LAUGHTER] And that guy took a liking to me. And he was the biggest horse's neck ever to come down the pike. He was a hobo that had found it in the Army, and he was re-enlisted. But he was kind of a weird booger. But anyway, he took a liking to me. And hell, I could just get away with anything after that. It was kind of weird. Some of the guys used to razz me about being his buddy. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, we were doing a lot of moving around. They were just shifting everybody. We went down through Texas, and they brought us up to San Francisco for Army Day Parade. We looped around on those damn hills down there a lot. My wife told me I wasn't supposed to cuss, too, didn't she? But anyway, we were moving around a lot, and then finally ended up at Fort Lewis, where they booted us out. Bauman: Do you know, after your parents left the farm, do you know if it was torn down right away? Or did the government use it for anything? Deranleau: Well, ours was, I'm sure, because it was just a shack. And most of them were like that. And it was just the better houses that they kept for folks--like that one I was telling you, Officer's Club is what they called that house over there, where we first lived. And houses like that, they kept them around to put people in. But boy, I'll tell you, some of those houses around here, you could throw a cat through the wall of them--they didn't amount to much. Bauman: Do you have--are there any memories of growing up in Richland that really stand out to you? Any sort of humorous events, or things that you remember from growing up here, that really stand out to you? Deranleau: Oh, boy. Well, [LAUGHTER] I remember one time, a bunch of us went up to Brown's island. And that's about maybe eight, nine miles up the Colombia from here. And, of course, in those days, all those dams weren't in there and that was free water. And if you knew where to go, you could wade over to that in the summer. And if you didn't, you'd have to swim a little. But a bunch of us went up there. Anyway, we camped up there for pretty near a week. And we just hunted and fished, and loafed around there. But anyway, there was a little shack on this side of the river. And we'd come back, and I don't know whether we were getting ready to leave, or just that morning, we were maybe going to hunt rabbits or something. But we all had .22s. And one of those kids shot up into the corner of that damn thing, towards the ceiling. And that bullet--we tracked it afterwards, and it went down the ridgepole of that little shack, just probably that far. And hit a nail, and it dropped down on one of the kids' neck. Now, it just dropped, I think. But anyway, it burned his neck, and it just rolled off, you know. And I remember, he said, I'm shot! [LAUGHTER] We didn't pay any attention to him. And he said, I'm shot, you damn fools! [LAUGHTER] It just boiled down that that had just rolled there, but just a strange thing. It hit a knot, to begin with, and turned and went right up that ridgepole about two inches. And then, by that time, that little .22 was spent. But anyway [LAUGHTER] he was pretty excited, because he thought he was killed, and we didn't pay any attention to him. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I'm wondering, anything you--or, what do you think would be important for people to know about what it was like growing up in a small community of Richland in the 1930s, 1940s? Deranleau: Well, really, it was pretty good, because everybody knew everybody. And everybody associated with one another. There wasn't anybody that was left out, really. And like I said, we were all poor as church mice, but we thought that was the way the whole world was. And like I said, I don't think there were any of us around that went hungry. I really don't. Folks would can, and they canned everything. I remember one year, I had three sisters that were going to get married in the fall. And those girls and mom canned for their families to be, and our family. And they would can in those old wash boilers. And I don't know if you've ever seen that done, but what they'd do is put a little rack in the bottom that was made out of cedar. And it had holes bored about like that, so that the water could circulate through it. But those jars wouldn't sit right on where it was so ungodly hot. And they put those in there, and then boil them for a couple hours to seal those—but they’d put up even meat, my folks did. And mom, even, would can butter a time or two. Now, she didn't heat it, you know--she'd put it in salt water, and put it in those jars. And then, we'd open that when, I guess, when we didn't have butter otherwise. I don't really know. I think she just did that one year. But they'd put up all kinds of vegetables and fruit. And everybody had some of that, and you'd trade around. Or if people had surplus, they'd just give it to you. There was a lot of that, because-- Bauman: It was a way to preserve things for-- Deranleau: Pardon? Bauman: It was a ways to preserve things-- Deranleau: Yeah. And folks would also put up pork. And put so much salt you couldn't eat it hardly, and you'd have to soak it for a week before you could get close enough to it to eat it. [LAUGHTER] But we always--Dad would kill a steer in the fall. And we'd give some of that, probably, to the kids. Maybe they'd kill one later, and we'd get part of that, and stuff like that. Or neighbors-- Bauman: So it was very much a community, everyone-- Deranleau: Yeah. Bauman: --sort of shared, and worked together. Well, any other things that we haven't talked about yet, that you remember, or that-- Deranleau: No. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today, and for sharing your memories and experiences. Deranleau: Okay. Bauman: Thank you very much. Deranleau: You betcha. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:24 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 125 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1930- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Deranleau Description An account of the resource Ray Deranleau moved to Richland, Washington in 1930 as a child. His family was displaced in 1943 when the Manhattan Project took over the land for the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/03/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Farming Irrigation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Battelle Cat Hanford Kennewick School https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4c14f389cabeb4decbddf768c2f0ecb7.JPG d74b3388cc8683d3b332cc7063583428 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff5fb1faeada314afbef71a3db9e00f8a.mp4 1f76915136d411b2f4c27bbb5832e24e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend Jeannette Sparks Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Reverend Jeannette Sparks on May 5, 2018. The interview is being conducted at New Hope Methodist Church— Jeannette Sparks: Missionary Baptist Church. Franklin: --Missionary Baptist Church, sorry. New Hope Missionary Baptist Church. I will be talking with Reverend Jeannette about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Sparks: You know to put the “Reverend” on it, and then my full name is J-E-A-N-N-E-T-T-E. And the last name is S-P-A-R-K-S. Franklin: Great, and thank you so much, Reverend. How did you come to the Tri-Cities area? Sparks: How did I come where? Franklin: How did you come here? And when did you come here and why? Sparks: Oh, I was born in ’38. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: And my dad, we lived in Hermiston, Oregon for a few months, because my dad worked on the McNary Dam and John Day Dam. And then he bought the property here for his family and his mom. Franklin: What year did you come to Hermiston? Sparks: I came to Hermiston in ’48, mm-hmm. Franklin: What did your dad do on the dam? Sparks: We didn’t do—my dad went down, he was put in the big tubes with Mr. Shaw, and they’d go down and screw the boats in the water, until one day they had one of the cranes going across and it fell off and hit my dad in the head while he was down in the water. Franklin: Oh, no. Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did he die? Sparks: No, he survived. They had to wear those steel brick—you know, those steel hats? And the steel hat even had an inner lining in it. But it just shook him up for a while. Franklin: Oh, wow, wow. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: And when did you come to Pasco? Sparks: We moved to Pasco—we was in Hermiston for three years, and then Dad say he didn’t want us to stay in Hermiston, because he was moving around a lot. So he moved us to Tri-Cities, here to Pasco. And I went to elementary school where they have Pasco—across from the court house, is that the Pasco City Hall—no, it ain’t the city hall where you go pay your utilities. I went there. I went to elementary school and then I went to junior high school there. And then I went to Pasco High School. Then Sue Williams and myself, we played basketball, and we had to be on the guards when we went to Kennewick to play Kennewick. Because during that time, Kennewick, didn’t allow no blacks across the bridge at a certain time. But we’d beat them every time. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Franklin: Did you ever have any trouble in Kennewick? Sparks: No, Daddy didn’t believe in that. We never had any problem going to school. And then when we moved to Pasco, Daddy bought the property on the corner and two houses for—because he put his mom in one house, and our house was on that upstairs/downstairs on the corner of 712 on Douglas Street there. That’s where we grew up at, mm-hmm. We grew up right there. Franklin: Where were you born? Sparks: I was born in a little place called Kildare, Texas. My dad said, this wasn’t where he wanted his family to be. And he took his mom and all of us—I think it was just five of us then. Me, Opal, Bobby, and Thee and Donnell. It was five of us. We rode the train all the way from Texas. We was on the train when the high water—when they had the flood in St. Paul, Minnesota. We had to be there for weeks and weeks and weeks. But during those days, when you travel, see, they packed lunch. You wasn’t buying all that stuff they had in the kitchen. So my grandmother had a box, and, oh, that box was nothing like this, wasn’t even this wide. We had food all the way to Hermiston, Oregon. Didn’t have to buy a thing. Didn’t even get hungry. And you know, the peoples in Oregon were so—they were so much different than the people in Pasco, when we moved to Pasco. Franklin: How so? Sparks: Well, the peoples in Oregon, they didn’t act like you was any different from them. But when you come to Pasco, they say you can’t go across, can’t be caught across the bridge at dark, and Daddy say, well, now you have to obey their laws. And when we went there, we would have to be guarded. When we was going to school and playing basketball, you see? But all that done changed so much, ‘til—[LAUGHTER] They used to have a sign at the bridge. My daddy helped build the bridge. And they had a sign up there that said, No blacks in Kennewick after dark. They used to have that sign over there. But they eventually moved the sign. I wasn’t in Washington when they did it. I wasn’t here. [LAUGHTER] I married and moved to California. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: What were your first impressions when you arrived in Pasco? Sparks: Well, it was—it wasn’t like Hermiston; it was like different. Because Dad would always tell us, you can’t go so-and-so-and-so, you couldn’t do this, you can’t do that, and you couldn’t—you know. But in Hermiston, it was no different. But we hated—we moved to Pasco. My Daddy says, it’s gonna get better. He kept telling us, it’s gonna get better. Gonna get better, gonna get better. And then we got old enough, we went to the grape field and helped pull the Welch’s grapes. Went and hoed sugar beets out on Road 68 where they got all them houses out there. It used to be nothing but fields. And you talking about hot. It is not hot here like it used to be. It used to be hot here. It ain’t hot like that no more. Franklin: I guess there were a lot less trees, huh? Sparks: Mm-hmm. And we had—when we went to school in Pasco, we didn’t have no problem, mm-mm. Nope. Franklin: It seems like a lot of black families left Kildare to come here. Are you related to anyone else that came up here? Sparks: The Daniels is my cousins. Franklin: So Vanis? Sparks: Vanis, all them, mm-hmm, that’s my cousins on my dad’s side. And their uncle, CJ Mitchell? CJ Mitchell came up here with my dad. Franklin: So you’re related to the Mitchells as well. Second cousin? Sparks: Mm-hmm, on my dad’s side. Franklin: What was your dad’s name? Sparks: Artis Miles, A-R-T-I-S M-I-L-E-S. And my mom was Bernice Weaver, mm-hmm. Franklin: Great. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Sparks: Well, you know, when you’re young, you don’t understand that—in Hermiston we didn’t have no problem. We mixed with all the other kids. But when you come to Pasco, we was hauled off, they was hauled off somewhere, and I never could figure out why all the blacks was over here and the rest of them was over here. It took me a while to get used to that. Because I wasn’t used to it. But I learned to get used to it, and then we had to walk to school, had to walk from the east side here to the Pasco High School on the other side. Franklin: And go under the tracks? Sparks: Mm-hmm, we had to go up under the underpass. And when we go under there, we’d be saying, aloha. [LAUGHTER] But after everything started changing—the Tri-Cities have changed tremendously. Because I see blacks all in Kennewick and everywhere. And my mom’s sisters and them, they lived all in Richland. Because they wouldn’t allow no black in Kennewick, so they lived in Richland. My cousin, CW Brown and Norris Brown, they used to call him the Sweet Georgia Brown. The Richland Bomber used to beat every team that was here, even Pasco team. Mm-hmm. Yep. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard about their basketball skills. Sparks: Oh, yeah. The Richland Bombers. My two cousins was on that team, and boy, I’ll tell you, Norris Brown and CW Brown. And I mean, they’d win every game they had. Franklin: They had a pretty big rivalry between Richland and Pasco, right? Sparks: Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I was only a cheerleader for a while, and then I said, no, I can go into something else. [LAUGHTER] Because it was okay as long as they was in the Tri-Cities, but when they had to go to Yakima or somewhere else, Dad’d always say, no, y’all ain’t going, because you ain’t got no good supervisors, so y’all ain’t going. And we didn’t go. Franklin: Because he was kind of protective, huh? Sparks: Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: What do you know about your parents’ lives before they came to the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, my daddy was a farmer in Kildare, Texas. Franklin: He was a foreman? Sparks: He worked corn, peas— Franklin: Oh, farmer, farmer, gotcha. Sparks: A farmer. And he used to tell us, he said, when Daddy make enough money, Daddy going to move you from here. He used to tell us that all the time, and finally one day, my dad, CJ Mitchell, and, oh, I forget his other cousin. Oh, he’s dead and gone, god. They still have got the house there, up from me, on Douglas. Oh! Franklin: It’s not a Daniels is it? Sparks: The Daniels? Franklin: Willie, is it? Sparks: Well, the Daniels came on up, too. Daddy helped—the Daniels came up with Daddy, and all of them, they all came up and start working here. My dad worked with Mr. Shaw on the dams. McNary Dam, and, oh, I think it was about three or four dams he helped on, and he got hurt on the John Day Dam, down there, going to The Dalles, Oregon. Franklin: Oh, wow. What was it about the work up here that drew your dad and his cousins and things up here? Sparks: Well, my mom used to work in the Salishan. You know anything about Salishan? Franklin: No. Sparks: My mom used to work at the Salishan, where they buff sheets for the Army. You know anything about that? Franklin: No. Sparks: Yeah, my mom used to work at Salishan where, they call it bucking sheets. And I know what that was, that means you have to fold them a certain way. For the Army boys. And then when we was in Hermiston, they had an Army base not too far from where we lived. They’d come right by the house to get to the Army base. But my life growing up with my family was, oh, it was just out of sight. Dad didn’t let us go out to play with nobody, because he said there was enough of us we could play in the yard together. And that’s what we did. This was our recreation all the time, church. Vacation Bible School, Sunday school. And oh, how I thank him today, for him, because some of them that’s my age, oh, I look at them today, and just—and they still haven’t accepted the Lord. And I wonder, what’s going to happen when judgment day come? Mm-hmm. Franklin: Was the work different up here? Did the work pay better up here? Is that why so many men, so many people left Kildare to come here? Sparks: Well, my dad said that in order for them to progress, you just can’t stay in the same—you’ve got to span yourself out and see where the work is at. Because, see, when they was in Texas, all they talked about fielding and growing corn and all of that stuff, and then they’d take it to market and sell it. And Daddy said, no, that wasn’t for him. So he expanded out. I think the six of them came up in a T-model Ford. Six of them came up in a T-model Ford. CJ Mitchell and all them, they came up in a—and they worked at Hanford. Franklin: Did your father work out on the Site? Sparks: Oh, no, my father worked on the bridges. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Yeah, he worked on—him and Mr. Shaw. I don’t know why he loved it, going under that, in that big tube, down, way down at the foot of the—putting boats in the—he loved it there. And we couldn’t—if Daddy was late getting in, we’d all get in a huddle and start praying, hoping nothing done happened to our Daddy. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: And so did you attend this church here when you got here? Sparks: Oh, yeah, this is where I attended—I went to this church when the church was on—what’s that, Beech Street? Beech Street. Bobby Sparks: What year was it though? What year? Sparks: Oh, and then after Beech Street, we used to have church at the Elks Club. It used to be at the Elks Club. And then when they built this church up here, I was here. I got my shovel, went and dug the first dirt out here. Mm-hmm, yep. Franklin: What role does church play in the community? Sparks: What who? Franklin: What role did church play in the African American community? Sparks: In this community? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Well, our mission, we go out and help those that can’t help themself. We feed the hungry. A lot of time they bring, sometimes it’s three and four box loads of people out on the street and they just bring them here, senior citizens, and we cook food and feed them here in this dining room. We’re missionaries, we do all of that. And we have a sweet pastor. He’s another one, he loves having everybody. [LAUGHTER] Yep. And I know this church, I don’t know about the other churches, but every Wednesday night we have Bible study and prayer meeting. And I mean, he teaches the Word, and it is awesome. We was here last night, oh, it was so good. Reading the book of Acts now. Yep, we done made it to the book of Acts. We just thank God—you know, it’s a blessing when you have a pastor that likes to teach those who want to be taught. So when he get here and preach it, then they can witness to it. But if you don’t know what he’s saying, you cannot witness to it. Because you don’t know if it’s in the Bible or not. And he’s strictly from the Word of God in the Bible. Franklin: Does the church play a special role in the black community? Sparks: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Could you talk about that, historically? Sparks: We goes out, the missionaries, we go out, we help the homeless, and if any of them come in the church that need help, we always help them. If they’re trying to get a place, if they need clothes, if they need food, we do that. And you’d be surprised to see how many boxes of food lined up here in the kitchen, where they take it out and give it to needy peoples. And then the peoples tell other peoples, and they just come to the church to pick up the box. A lot of them pick up the boxes, you don’t see them no more, but you continue to pray for them. One day they will turn around, mm-hmm. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions that people brought from the places they came from? Sparks: Well, I don’t know. I know one thing they had there. Bobby, what is that they had in Kildare? Oh, the Juneteenth. Franklin: What’s that? Sparks: That’s Juneteenth. Franklin: The humanitarian award. Can you see that, Tom? Can you tell me about—can you talk about Juneteenth for those viewing this that may not know about it? Sparks: We have it in the park over here, at the park on this side. I always say on the east side. The park on the east side, it used to be houses all down in there, but they made a big park down in there. And then we talk about the old time, we talk about our history and where we come from, how we got here. Franklin: What does Juneteenth celebrate? Sparks: Juneteenth celebrates our history. It’s our history. And this here, see that? Isn’t that a community award? Franklin: Yeah, the Juneteenth Community Council. Sparks: I was a person that, I didn’t care who you was, or what color you was, or where you came from, if you needed help, I would go help. Because we are all God’s children. And God don’t have no respective person so why do we? We supposed to be able to help everybody, regardless. And that’s me. A lot of time, I go—if I go downtown and see somebody on the street needs some help, I’ll holler and say, hey, you want a hamburger? Come on. When it’s in you, it’s in you. And it’s been building in you from knee-high to adult, all the way up. We was taught from both sides, from the Weaver side, the Davis side, the Miles side, we was taught. And that’s what we supposed to do for one another, we shouldn’t have one respective person who we help regardless. Because when God call your name, he going to tell you, remember that so-and-so-and-so you passed by and you didn’t help him? I don’t want Him to say that to me. I don’t want Him to set apart from me I know you’re not. I want Him to know me, you see? Franklin: Yeah. What about—I asked you earlier about traditions that people brought with them from the places they came from. But what about food? Did people bring a certain culinary or food culture with them from Kildare to here? Sparks: Well, they packed food, they fried chicken and they had cornbread. And then they made a lot of muffins, a lot of tea cakes, and a lot of people do that now when we have our gathering here at the church, people bring food that we used to eat. Old-fashioned Sunday. That takes us back to our grandparents and great-grandparents. Make dishes and bring them. And I mean, it seem like that Sunday at the church, we have to put chairs out for peoples to sit. But it should be like that every Sunday. Everybody should appreciate where they come from and what the Lord is doing for them and what other peoples are helping them with. You know? Some’ll come today and you don’t see them no more for a while until they need something. But you don’t turn them away; you still give it to them. That’s going to be between them and God. You see? Franklin: Yeah. What about sports? Did anyone bring any sports traditions with them? Sparks: Oh, I played basketball. I played basketball for Pasco High School and tennis, played tennis. Mm-hmm. Volleyball. Me and Sue Williams. Franklin: Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you or your parents came from? Sparks: Well, yeah! A lot of things here available that wasn’t available. Because that’s why my dad moved from Texas, because he said, uh-uh. He wasn’t born in no backdoor and he wasn’t going to stay here and continue to go in no backdoor to shop. That’s when we got the train and moved to Hermiston, Oregon. Franklin: So segregation was a pushing factor? Sparks: Oh, it was too much. And Dad said he wasn’t going to raise his family there. And he didn’t. Let me see. Him, CJ Mitchell, and cousin Vanis Daniels, and all of them loaded up in a T-model Ford. Franklin: How was housing different from here compared to Kildare? Sparks: Well, I tell you what. In Kildare, the blacks stayed in they position, and the whites stayed in theirs. And the blacks never had a place to shop; they had to shop at the white store. And if you wasn’t light-skinned, you couldn’t go in the front door; you had to go in the back door. That’s just the way it was. And my mom and his mom, they all could go in there, because they looked like they was white anyway, mm-hmm. Franklin: What about education? What grades did your parents go through? What was their education level? Sparks: I graduated from Pasco High School. Franklin: But your parents? Sparks: Oh, my parents? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Oh, my dad didn’t graduate, but my mom graduated. My mama graduated. Because my dad had—they had to do work in the field and work for—my dad and them was Uncle Tom then because they had to work in the field. Daddy say he was sick of that. Mm-mm. They was getting out. And that’s why all them got together and decided to drive a T-model Ford to Hermiston, Oregon. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation and racism? Sparks: Well, none of the opportunities have lightened up a whole lot. Because when we first moved here, you couldn’t go across the bridge at night. If you did, the peoples in Kennewick would beat you up. Dad would always tell us, when Miss Booth take you all to Kennewick—and he would tell Miss Booth, you keep my girls with you. Because I don’t want nothing to happen to them. And she did, too. And they was teachers that are all Pasco High School. When we went to junior high we didn’t have no problem, because, you know. And then one of my cousins went with a girl named Marsha. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: Could you describe any interactions you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Do I do what? Franklin: Could you describe any interactions that you or your parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area? Sparks: We ain’t had no problem. Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you ever go to Richland to visit your cousins? Sparks: Oh, yeah, that’s as far as we went: to they homes. Franklin: How was Richland different from Pasco? Sparks: Well, Richland was nice. It was Kennewick. Kennewick. Never had no problem with Richland. It was only Kennewick. And Kennewick didn’t allow any blacks over there after dark. They didn’t care if they was light-skinned or black-skinned or whatever. You wasn’t—and they used to have it on the bridge there. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you went to Pasco High School. Where did you go to elementary and middle school? Sparks: Where you pay the water bill over here across from the court house? You know what? Tom Hungate: City hall. City hall. Sparks: The courthouse? That’s where I went to elementary school at. Franklin: Okay. So you didn’t go to Whittier? Sparks: No, I didn’t go to Whittier. They wouldn’t even have a bus to come over here and pick us up until my dad and them finally got a bus to come pick us—we had to walk. Franklin: Can you tell me, how did your dad and others get a bus here? Sparks: Well, they kept having meetings with the city, having meeting with the city, having meeting with the city, and finally they started the buses to come here. And the bus used to pick us up at Whittier Elementary School. But see, Whittier Elementary School is not there anymore. Elementary school is further up. But elementary school was there before you go under the underpass. That’s where the elementary school was. And it was houses there. I look where they have done put all these factories over here and there wasn’t nothing but a lot of houses over here, you know. And all the houses over here were mostly black on this side of town. All black families lived on this side of the underpass. And now they done put all factories over here. Franklin: Part of the redevelopment. Sparks: Yup, they done put a lot of factories over here. Franklin: How did segregation and racism affect your education? Sparks: None whatsoever. Franklin: Okay, who were some of the people who influenced you as a child? Sparks: Encouraged me when I was a child? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Well, I don’t know if Mr. Sundale was still living. Franklin: Who was he? Sparks: He was a teacher. And he said, no matter what, you get your education and you can look back on them. Mr. Sundale. Miss Stiggers. Miss Stiggers was a good—she’d always tell you, your education will take you a long ways. And Mr. One-eyed Harper. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did he really have one eye? Sparks: Yup. He had a marble eye, but he only had one eye he could see out of. Franklin: And he was another teacher? Sparks: He was another teacher, mm-hmm. Miss Stanley was, she say, your education, if you get a good education, it’ll take you a long ways in the world. And that was true. Franklin: When did you graduate high school? Sparks: I graduated in—oh, god, I graduated from Pasco High School. I don’t know what year. I should’ve bought that book, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Did you go to college? Sparks: I went to CBC for a while. Franklin: What did you study there? Sparks: Well, mostly, I went to theological seminaries. Franklin: Where was that? Sparks: In California and a little bit here, before I went to California. I went to theological seminaries for my—to continue in my ministry. Franklin: What made you want to go into church leadership? Sparks: What did what? Franklin: What drove you to go into church leadership? Sparks: Because when we was growing up, Dad always told us, you can always depend on God when you can’t depend on nobody else. That’s the man I wanted to be serving, was somebody I could depend on. And my daddy kept us in serving the Lord all the time. We never could go to birthday parties, nobody birthday parties. He said it was enough of us to have a birthday party in the yard. And I thank him for that. When they built this church here, my dad was one of the deacons. We was in everything. We had a lot of plays that we used to put on when we was growing up. Old-fashioned Sundays and all of that. We used to dress up like they did in the olden days, sing the old hymns like they did in the olden days, mm-hmm. And I just love it, you know. My little Sunday school students, I just love them so much. And I tell them, what your grades is in school? Let me see your report card. And they let me see—they bring that report card and let me see it. And sometime I say, here’s your few bucks you can get you a big hamburger and some French fries. You know, it was done for me when I was growing up, and you just carry it on. And you don’t know what will help. I imagine the peoples and things gave it to me never thought that I would be a minister. But I loved this church. Loved to sing. All that. And my mom used to sing in the choir. My mom used to sing in the choir, mm-hmm. Franklin: Could you sing one of the old songs? Sparks: Me? Franklin: That people used to sing, yeah. Sparks: [singing] Guide me over, great Jehovah, pilgrim through this barren land. Franklin: Thank you, that was really wonderful. So I wanted to shift into talking about civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities. Sparks: Some what? Franklin: Civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? You mentioned that you left the Tri-Cities area for a while. When did you leave? Sparks: Leave what? Franklin: Here, Pasco. Sparks: Oh, after I married. In ’57. Franklin: And when did you come back? Sparks: I’d come back every year. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: My husband and I, we moved to California. But every year, he promised me when I told my mom, he said, every year she can come back and spend the summer with you. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: And he kept that promise until he died, mm-hmm. Franklin: How long did you live in California? Sparks: Oh, God, how old is Chris? 60-something years. Bobby Sparks: Yeah. Sparks: I just moved back here about 12 years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Sparks: That was when my husband got sick and we moved. He wanted to be back home, so we moved back here and then I ended up on dialysis, and when I’d get off of dialysis they’d drop me off over there at Avalon, and I’d spend the rest of the evening with him, and then I’d come home and I’d make sure on my day off, I’d go to Avalon and give him his shower and feed him and everything. And we was married for 57 years, almost—in two months it’d be 58 years. That’s a long time to be with one man, ain’t it? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yes, it is. When you were here, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, you know, when I was here, my dad was involved in that. Him, and Mr. Vanis Daniels—oh boy, what was the other heavyset man lived on—CJ Mitchell, Primmer Brown, let me see who else. Katie Barton, Mother Katie Barton. She stayed on it all the time, Katie Barton did. And she was the one, Katie Barton was the one that took that sign off the bridge. Franklin: Really? Sparks: Uh-huh. Where it says, no blacks allowed. She went and took that sign off the bridge. Franklin: When was that? Sparks: Katie Barton? Franklin: When was that? Sparks: That’s when I was going to junior high school. Franklin: Oh, okay, so it came down in the ‘50s? Sparks: Mm-hmm, back in the ‘50s. Because Miss Booth—because I played basketball, me and Sue Williams. Oh, Mr. Williams was involved, too, in helping. Mr. Joe Williams, Mr. Joe Bush, Daddy, Vanis Daniels, all of them, they was involved in getting stuff together, you know. Franklin: What kinds of things were they involved in? Sparks: In getting the civil rights to be like it should. Trying to let peoples know the world is just not belongs to the whites or the light-skinned; it belongs to all the peoples created under God, one nation, one God. And that’s what they was doing. They finally got it through. Franklin: Were there any big issues that people worked on that stand out to you? Sparks: Because they didn’t want any blacks in Kennewick. That was a big issue. They didn’t want any blacks in Kennewick. And if you caught—you couldn’t even be caught over there after dark, even if you worked over there. Franklin: Was housing or sidewalks an issue for folks? Sparks: Well, you couldn’t—in Kennewick, you couldn’t be caught in Kennewick after dark. Franklin: What about in east Pasco, was there a lack of services in east Pasco? Sparks: No, we didn’t have no problem over here. No problem whatsoever. Franklin: What about in employment? Sparks: Unemployment? Franklin: In employment, getting jobs. Sparks: Oh, they was able to get jobs. They was able to get jobs at Hanford. All of them, a lot of them worked at Hanford. My momma, when we lived in Seattle, my mom worked in what they call, a place called Salishan. That was bucking sheets. They had to do the sheets for the them to buckle, fold the plastic on them, and bag them up and put them on the market for sale. That’s why mom did. Franklin: Besides removing the sign, you said Katie Barton helped that, were there any other notable successes of the civil rights movement in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Oh, yeah, a lot of black people living in Kennewick now. [LAUGHTER] But there’s nothing wrong with Kennewick, like it used to be. Everybody just is nice and—you know. The younger generation that came along after the old generation, a whole lot changed. It was the older generation. But when the younger generation started coming in, and my cousin and them were going and playing basketball, and we’d go over there for cheerleaders and all that kind of stuff, the younger generation changed Kennewick. Not the older. The younger generation changed Kennewick. Because they wasn’t having all that, mm-mm. Franklin: What were some of the biggest civil rights challenges, issues that were challenging for folks? Sparks: Was Kennewick. [LAUGHTER] It was Kennewick. Pasco, you never had a problem. Never had a problem in Pasco. Kennewick was the problem. Never had a problem in Richland. Never had a problem in Richland. Kennewick was the only one. And after—you know, after the older folks moved on, then Kennewick started changing and changing, and blacks live in Kennewick and everywhere else, you know, all down in there. And I was just over that way not too long ago, and I said, my land, I remember when you couldn’t even come down this hill. When they put that freeway in and got that freeway going everywhere. But the younger generation, they brought by the change. That young generation did. Like our age and like that, they the ones that changed Kennewick. Now some of the elder people, boy, they’d tell you, they’d call you all kinds of colors and curse you and, don’t walk on the sidewalk, walk in the street and all that kind of stuff. Franklin: Did that ever happen to you? Sparks: I never had a problem. [LAUGHTER] Mm-mm. Nope, I never had a problem. But when Daddy would take us over there, he’d just hold my hand and go on. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: What about when—did you ever have any—were there problems with eating at restaurants or shopping or anything, problems with services or being treated less-than? Sparks: I’ve never ate a restaurant in Kennewick. Up to this day, I still won’t. Nothing that—it’s not prejudice or anything like that, I just don’t. I say, it’s enough restaurants over here, it’s the same thing. So why would I go over there to go out of my way to go over there to bother somebody else, you see? Franklin: Was there ever any problems with folks on the west side of Pasco? Sparks: Mm-mm. Don’t have no problem with none of them. All of them on the west side of Pasco over there in them new homes and everything, I grew up with a lot of them. And some people moved here that go to my church here, live out there on Road 68. That’s where I go out there for dialysis. If you want to, you can go out there and dialysis in there and say, I wanna ask you something about Sparky. Oh, Sparky? Oh, sit down. They’d tell you about Sparky, mm-hmm. Franklin: Do you have memories of the Hazel Scott case in 1950? Where she was refused service at the Pasco bus station? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you ever hear about that? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Mm-mm. What happened? Franklin: She was a very famous singer in World War II and afterwards. She was married to a congressman. She was African American and so was her husband. I can’t remember his name; he was a congressman from Harlem. And she was on a tour, and the bus stopped at the Greyhound Station in Pasco. She went to the lunch counter, and sat down and the waitress refused to serve her. And she said, why are you refusing to serve me? And the waitress said, I can’t; the owner said I can’t serve you. And the owner came out and said, we don’t serve blacks here. They had a sign up in the Pasco bus station. So she was pretty famous and had a famous husband, so she sued in Washington State court, and she won the lawsuit. And they had to pay her and they had to take down the sign. Sparks: Well, Dad always tell us where to go eat and where to stop, and when you come from school, you come straight home and your food is all ready in the kitchen. You see? And if he give us lunch money and we didn’t eat lunch at school, he’s going to say, well, since you ain’t eating lunch at school, you wait until you get home and eat. Did you remember the Dew Drop Inn? Right there by the underpass? Franklin: I’ve heard of it. Sparks: Oh. [LAUGHTER] That’s where, when Daddy was working on the dam, and we got out of school early, and we’d know if we came home, Momma was going to have something for us to do. We’d stop at the Dew Drop Inn. Franklin: What would you do there? Sparks: Oh, we danced and do whatever we wanted to do. Buy hamburgers and stuff. Save our lunch money and wait. Are we going to the Dew Drop Inn today? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then sometime, one of the elder people said, Miles, did you know the kids didn’t go to school all day today? They’d come down and tell Daddy. Daddy’d say, y’all didn’t go to school all day today? Where you been? [LAUGHTER] But I thank God for my parents, because they raised us in the admiration of the Lord and told us that God has no respective person, so why do you? And that’s the way it is with me, you know? Even when I’m on dialysis, I’ll pray for them all, because we’re all God’s children. God just wanted a bouquet of roses when he created all of us. And He did. It’s different colors and every denomination. So, this one guy said, how come we all can’t get along? [LAUGHTER] But I don’t have no problem with it. I don’t have no problem with any of it. Franklin: Do you remember any other important landmarks, like the Dew Drop Inn, from that era? Sparks: Well, it was all houses over there. Franklin: What about Virginia’s Chicken Shack? Sparks: Virginia down here? You know, Virginia’s shop was right down here on the corner. Franklin: No, I didn’t. Sparks: Yeah, Virginia restaurant were right here on the corner before you go across the tracks. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: On A Street. Franklin: Did you ever eat there? Sparks: Oh, many times. You talking about, that woman could cook some biscuits. And her biscuits was—and you could get two or three biscuits out of hers and she’d put that jelly and preserves in between there and that ham, the ham they used to raise—shoot. Mm, mm. My dad raised his own pigs. Franklin: Oh, really? Sparks: Oh, yeah, my dad, his pig lot was over there. He had his own pigs and he had his own beef further up there. Mm-hmm, yup. He had the cow, he had the calves, he had the pigs, he had the bacon and he had the beef. And he had to. Bobby Sparks: How many kids he have? Sparks: Mm-hmm! Bobby Sparks: How many kids? Sparks: It was 15 of us. Franklin: Wow! Where are you in that lineup? Sparks: I’m the second. Franklin: Second-oldest? Sparks: Mm-hmm, I’m the second-oldest. Franklin: What are your siblings’ names, starting from the oldest going down? Sparks: Opal, Jeannette, Bobbie, Taylor, Ennis—where I have them at, all in the book? [LAUGHTER] Right there, in that folder. Right there in that folder there. Hungate: Right there, whole family, 15 of them. Sparks: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yup. This was us. See, God, it’s even wrote all on the back. That’s a lot of us. Franklin: Opal, Jeannette, Bobbie, Taylor, Shirley, Theartis, Donnell, Willy, Evelyn—that’s my wife’s name—LaWanda, Ennis, Theresa, Ervin, Gwendolyn, and Curtis. Wow. That is quite an age range, too. How old was your mother when she had you? Sparks: I don’t know how old my mom and dad was when they had me. [LAUGHTER] But I know I’m 60. Opal’s 61, and Bobbie gonna be 60. Franklin: I think you mean— Sparks: My other sister up in Tacoma, mm-hmm. Franklin: Here you go. Wow. That’s quite a large family. Sparks: Oh, you know what? When we was growing up, we had such a good time growing up together. And that’s why Daddy never would let us go to birthday parties. Because he would always tell us, it’s enough of y’all to have a birthday party out there in the yard. Franklin: How big was your house? Sparks: You know this house here on the corner of Douglas Street, upstairs and downstairs? Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: That was our house. That’s where I grew up at. Franklin: Just right down there. Sparks: Off A Street on Douglas. Right on the corner, and it’s a little piece of lot still next to it there. Franklin: Where do you live now? Sparks: I still live on Douglas. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: 712 South Douglas. The oldest one, the two oldest ones had a choice when we got married. One could have a big wedding and the other one could have a down payment on a house. My older sister wanted the wedding. And I got the down payment on the house. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s a good deal! Sparks: And I’m still in the house. I’m still in my house. Franklin: Wow. Sparks: I go to California, but when I go to California, I just lock it up and go ahead on. The gardener come and cut the yard and everything, but. My boys was born in California. But they would come and spend the summer with my mom and dad. Franklin: How many children do you have? Sparks: I have—one, two, three. I have four sons. Four sons, mm-hmm. I lost my Waynie. I lost my youngest son. The last one I had, I lost him. Mm-hmm, yup. Franklin: I’m sorry to hear that. Sparks: But I enjoy them all. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, that’s where I’ll be going. My oldest son’ll be here in June so he can take me back to California because I won’t ride the train nor the plane nor the bus. So they’ll come drive me down, and when I get ready to come back, they’ll drive me back. Franklin: Oh, wow. To go back to the civil rights talk we were speaking of earlier. Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Sparks: Mm-mm. Franklin: Do you remember when the schools in the South were desegregated? Brown v. the Board of Education? Sparks: Oh, yeah! The black school had they schools and the white had they school. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember when my dad couldn’t even go in the front door of the market, but my mom could. And I’m for sure his mom could, too. I’m pretty sure that Anna Mae could, too, because you see them, they could pass, you’d think they was white. They could go in the front door. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights movements in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: Well, it helped out a lot in Kennewick. That’s the only problem they had, was in Kennewick. They never had a problem in Pasco and Richland. It was just Kennewick. Because when we’d even go over there to play basketball, Miss Booth would have to guard me and Sue Williams because we both was black. Franklin: Were you ever threatened, or--? Sparks: No, because Miss Booth kept us right up under her. And we beat them by 20 points. Franklin: What was different about Kennewick? Why do you think, looking back on it, what was Kennewick’s opposition to having blacks in their town? Sparks: Well, I don’t know, it was the older peoples. It was the old peoples who had settled there for a long time, had been there for a long time. But the young generation came behind them. Shoots, they was even going with the black boys. You know. And I say, it was just the older generation that had that going. But it’s the other generation came along, like me and I know my cousin, CW used to go with a girl named Marsha. She was white as I don’t know what and had blonde hair. Franklin: Was that shocking at all for some people? Sparks: Well, it was shocking then. After a lot of the old peoples moved on off, a lot of the elder people passed and went on that had—a lot of elder peoples in Kennewick had a lot of prejudice in them. But the young—the generation came behind them, they sure didn’t. Franklin: What do you think changed in that generation? Sparks: The generation came on after them. Franklin: Yeah, what was so different between the old people and the young people? What was it? Sparks: Well, the generation came on behind them, they didn’t have no picks and no choices. Everybody was created equal. But the older generation, they just figured everyone was Uncle Tom and all that, you know, couldn’t do this and couldn’t have this and couldn’t have that. I know when my dad was building the bigger house down there, and they was wondering what Mr. Miles was building. See, it didn’t bother Daddy because Daddy worked on the dam, him and Mr. Shaw. And he worked on the dams all over, you know. And my daddy was black as the ace of spades. But he was sweet as he could be. And see, my mom, you know, they got Indian and all that in them, so they could do whatever. You know, they was real light-skinned. They could go in anywhere. Momma didn’t have no problem in Kennewick; it was Daddy. But Momma couldn’t drive, so she couldn’t go unless Daddy took her. [LAUGHTER] And Daddy said, no, we’re going to Richland. We’re not going to Kennewick today. [LAUGHTER] And we’d go to Richland and Mom would go to Richland. Franklin: When you moved to California, were your experiences there, being black, were they different than here in Pasco? Sparks: Oooooh, it was a whole lot of different. Franklin: How so? Sparks: You could go anywhere you want to. Franklin: In California? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And where did you move to in California? Sparks: I lived in—when I lived in California, I lived on 3rd Avenue, and I was right down the street from the Pasco High School. Franklin: Oh, when you lived in California. Sparks: When I lived in California. Franklin: Where? Sparks: I was down the street from Crenshaw High School. Franklin: Oh, okay, is that in LA? Sparks: Uh-huh, that’s in LA. I worked at the school. And then I worked at the convalescent home, I worked everywhere, and I went to Providence Theological Seminary College. And it was mixed; it didn’t have no all-black. It wasn’t all-black; it was a mixture of us. And I fellowship with them now. When I go to California, I go to that church, and we just have a ball. And they say, Sparks, you finally came back! You know. I never had no problem when I was going to school here in Pasco. It was just that when we went to Kennewick to play basketball. Franklin: I wanted to ask you about your husband. How did you meet him? Sparks: Well, my husband’s auntie lived there, this Smiths. Uncle Dave and Aunt Clement. They lived there. They lived, they got that big house next street over from me over there. QT come up and visit them. Franklin: Who? Sparks: My husband. Franklin: Did you cutie? Sparks: We call him QT but his name is Quilla. And we called him QT. Quilla Terrence Sparks. We called him Quilla. And he come up to visit his auntie, because his mom lived in Oxnard, California. That’s where he graduated in high school, in Oxnard, and played basketball. Franklin: And you met him when he came to visit? Sparks: I met him when he come to visit the first time. But I was still going to school. His mom and his grandma—his mom went to school with my mom. Franklin: In Kildare? Sparks: In Texas. His grandmother would come down to my mom house. Because my mom quilted a lot. They quilt a lot. And his grandma would come down and help Mom quilt. He came down and picked her up one time, and he asked me, who do you belongs to? And I said, my mom and my daddy. [LAUGHTER] You’d think your daddy would mind if I take you to get a hamburger? I say, you gotta ask my daddy. And from them on, he start—I was still in school. I was in high school. And he’d meet me everyday at the bus stop to walk me home. Mm-hmm. And I got married in my dad’s living room. In 1957, mm-hmm. Franklin: So you were 17, 18? Sparks: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Sparks: And I got married in my dad living room. Franklin: And then you moved to California with him? Sparks: In three days, he said, we moving to California with my mom. And that’s where my sons was born. But every year, he said, he told Momma, he said, I’ll let her come back every year to visit. And he kept that promise. Me and the kids, we’d come every year. And then his grandmother came and she stayed whenever the boys was born, she’d come and stay with me so she could help me take care of the boys. He had a sweet grandmother, mm-hmm. Franklin: So did his family come up to work at Hanford or the dams as well? Sparks: No. Not then. They came up later. I think Uncle Dave worked at Hanford. Didn’t Uncle Dave work at Hanford? Uncle Dave worked at Hanford. Franklin: That would be his uncle? Sparks: That’s his uncle. That’s his mom—his dad—no, that’s your mom? Bobby Sparks: His sister. My dad’s sister. Sparks: Mm-hmm, yup. See this is my cousin on my mom’s side. Franklin: Oh, okay. Sparks: His mom was on my mom’s side. His daddy is on my husband’s side. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Franklin: Gotcha. Sparks: They all went to school together in Kildare, Texas. Franklin: That Kildare connection? Sparks: Mm-hmm. When one got a job, they made sure all the rest of them could get a job and come on out. We’re just one big happy family. Always have been, mm-hmm. Franklin: That’s wonderful. Sparks: You should come to our family reunion sometime. Franklin: I should. I think I know—I’ve interviewed about half of you so far. Sparks: Oh, honey. Franklin: I could get the other half in one fell swoop. Sparks: This church here will not hold all of us. Franklin: Yeah, it’s a big extended family. I’ve been finding that out— Sparks: That’s on both sides. That’s on both side, on momma’s side and on Daddy’s side. Now, see, I’m related to the Daniels on my daddy’s side. Mm-hmm, yep. And the Coles. Franklin: Yup. Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, work, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Sparks: I just love the Lord because He changed the situation it was in the Tri-Cities. And just like He did it here, He’s going to do it other places, too. Now I can go to Kennewick and stay all day and don’t have no problem. Go over there and gas up and hit the street by the tracks and come on up the hill. [LAUGHTER] Don’t have no problem. Mm-mm. And you know, God can do anything but fail. And I always say, God had a purpose for you to go through something, so you realize what He could do for you. If you put your trust in Him. Now, you got to put your trust in God and depend on Him to open the pathway for you. And I’m a living witness, God have opened a lot of pathways that I didn’t think could ever be opened. Opened doors that I didn’t think would ever be open. God did all that. And I give Him the glory. Because He was the one worked on the people’s heart and caused them to have a turnaround and let them know that every one of you is My children. And I intend for every one of you to get along. And now you know, when some have them on dialysis, they say Reverend Sparks, can you do this for so-and-so-and-so-and-so? And I just say push me over then, I’ll pray for them right then and there, mm-hmm. We always supposed to be helpers, one to another. And when you help with one to another, you don’t have no problem. God is pleased with the road you traveling. I don’t know nobody that I dislike. Red, yellow, black, white, blue, whatever color. We all God’s children. Franklin: Well, Reverend, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us— Sparks: I thank you for taking time out to do what you’re doing in order to take the survey to help the peoples who have been here for a long time and know what you had to go through to get to where you at now. That’s a blessing. Franklin: Yeah. Sparks: Only God can do that. Nobody else but God. And I just thank God for His business in it. Because if it hadn’t been for God on our side, where would—that’s why you breathing today. God could take that breath any time he get ready. But He know you doing a good job, and you pleasing Him and he’s satisfied with the work you doing. He says, I’m going to let him live a while longer. But be ready when he come. [LAUGHTER] Don’t let Him catch you with your work undone. Franklin: Okay. Sparks: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I appreciate it. Sparks: It pays to be with the Lord. Because he’s the way and the only way. I wouldn’t have no other before me except the Lord. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-1957 2006- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reverend Jeannette Sparks Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) McNary Lock and Dam (Or.) Basketball Segregation School integration Civil rights Description An account of the resource Reverend Jeannette Sparks moved to Pasco, Washington as a child in 1951. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/05/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe1768de8516a52b7e20b8e45bdb4d613.jpg 4d83b8f8dc97c67c77cf6f21007a7a40 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc0acdc7ca985d26fc0e3d24167099d25.mp4 1690cbdbbd45312650d1460ac10e60fa Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Jaquish Description An account of the resource An interview with Richard Jaquish conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea2536d99c0a8f23ad2086c4716820d9.jpg dfebe25b106ba7d9824501dc3958b7b3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F559b622c13aa4a2e4a5248c2deebf511.mp4 34fa37d1ec79608d8bb044f01a3035c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arata, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johanson, Richard Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Johanson_Richard Camera man: Okay. Laura Arata: Are you ready to go? Camera man: Yeah. Arata: Excellent. So if I could have you start by just saying your name and then spelling your last name. Richard Johanson: My name is Richard E. Johanson. And the last name is spelled J-O-H-A-N-S-O-N. Arata: Thank you. My name is Laura Arata. It is March 5, 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So Richard, I would like to start, if you could just tell us a little bit about how you came to Hanford and where you came from. Johanson: Well, my folks moved to Benton County--actually it was Prosser--in about 1930, when I was about three years old. And a year later, we moved to Benton City where they resided ever since that time. And I went to school over in Benton City. And so I'm a real native around here. Arata: Since you did have these kind of early experiences growing up here, from a fairly early time, I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about what it was like going to school here at that time. Johanson: Oh, it was fun. It's what you make it, you know. And I went to school in Benton City at Kiona-Benton. And I remember back in about 1943, when they were starting to build the Hanford project, a friend of mine, a schoolmate, who had been displaced from Hanford, and he was going to school in Benton City, also. And he says, you know, I've got a—what’s that--apple press, cider press. And he says, it is over where we used to live over at Hanford. So he said, get your car. And he said, let's go get that cider press. So we did. And they let you in over there to do that then, because we knew. It wasn't because we knew anybody. It was just the fact that, at that point, they didn't have it locked up. And you didn't have to have a badge to get in. Arata: Do you have any memories, then, of Richland or White Bluffs or any of those communities? Johanson: Oh yeah. In fact, I played basketball in the school building in White Bluffs. It's just a shell of a building now, I think. But we played basketball there and rode the bus from Benton City to White Bluffs. And we played at Hanford, because they had a separate high school. And it was all exciting for us. I remember stopping in at one of the stores getting stuff. We rode the bus out. And then earlier, it had to be in the late '30s, they used to have boat races over at Hanford, just down on the river. And they were outboard boats. The boats were the pumpkin seed-type race boats. And I remember going with my folks over to the races. And that had to have been probably in the early '30s. Because we went to the Horn Rapids and then the road continued on out as it does now. But I think then it was a gravel road out to Hanford. Arata: Do you have any particular memories of the boat races? We hear references to them a lot. And I very rarely meet someone who actually witnessed them. Johanson: Well, there were quite a few boats and probably 15 or 20 boats at least. And they had the old outboard Evinrude type engines on them. And they would go 60, 70 miles an hour. But it was exciting, especially for a nine-year-old. Arata: I bet. And would they have concessions and things down there? Johanson: Oh, yeah, they had the usual stuff, hamburgers and so on. Arata: So that was a full day for you, obviously, the boat races. Johanson: Oh yeah, it was a big day's trip. Arata: I'm curious. We've heard a couple references to a circus actually coming to that area. Did you see that? Johanson: I never saw a circus out there. But I remember going to a circus when I was small. And I think we went to Walla Walla to the circus. And that makes a big impression on young mind. Arata: Hm. So many questions, where to go next? Could you talk a little bit about where you lived, your parents' property, for example, your housing situation while you were growing up? Johanson: We didn't have any housing problem, because we lived on a farm. My dad had 70 acres. He was on the Benton County PUD board. And he was on the board of the WPPSS, which is now called Energy Northwest, and was instrumental in getting some of that stuff going. Arata: So you had electricity then and that sort of thing in your house? Johanson: Well, the first house we lived in, in Benton City, we didn't have electricity. We had a telephone but no electricity. We had a well. I remember, one time, my brother, older brother, Bob, was playing. He had some soap. And he put it in the old cook stove in the little holes were you lift the lid off. And it was boiling in there. And he thought that was a great funny deal. But it caught fire. And the fire spread, and it was going up the curtains. My dad came running in, and he grabbed a bucket of water that we kept there for drinking. And he threw it all over the fire and put it out. That was a little bit scary. Arata: Lucky save for dad. Johanson: Yeah. Arata: Before I forget, do you have any particular memories of the store at White Bluffs, like what sorts of things you'd stop there and purchase? Johanson: Well, I think it was a store and a service station, kind of like the convenience stores they have now. But it was just a normal, small grocery store. And that's about all I remember about that. But the bus would stop there. And the kids would go in and get pop and whatever. Arata: So I understand you started working at Hanford. Could you talk a little bit about when you started working at Hanford? Johanson: I went to work out there, actually, in '48. I was in the Navy. And I got out of the Navy in '46, 1946. And I worked a year helping my dad out on the ranch. And then I decided I would strike out and work at the big Hanford project, which was exciting for young guys. And I worked there several years. And I worked there as a radiation time keeper, in the tank farms, through '48, '49 and '50 and end of '51 and '52. And my job was to keep track of how much time the workers spent in a hot zone. I'd get the readings from the health instrument man and calculate how long they could spend at that job. Sometimes it was only 10 or 12 minutes before they got a full dose of the maximum radiation they were allowed. And at that time, we were opening up the tops of the tanks. And they were going to install pump pits. And then they were also putting in pipe trenches and stainless pipe, large 8, 10 inch diameter piping. And the idea, at that time, as I understood it, was for reprocessing, which they eventually decided not to do, under one of our presidents, decided not to do reprocessing. But that was in 1950, '51. And we had to use jackhammers to open up to the top of the tank. And the workers, with the jackhammers, had to have jackhammer bits that were about 18 feet long. Because that would let the operator of the jackhammer stay back away from the open pit. And he can work longer that way. And the same way when they'd jackhammer the concrete. And it fell down into the tanks, obviously. And then they had--of course, there was rebar in those, too. So they had put a cutting torch on the end of long pole, probably between 15 and 18 feet long, so they could cut the rebar to open the tanks up. And in cutting the rebar, it would fall down in there, too. So a lot of those chunks of concrete are probably still there. And that was 60 some years ago. Arata: Did you have any other jobs at Hanford after that time? Johanson: Well, I worked for a while in the cannery, where they canned the uranium. And I was in the 300 area, just north, not too far here, probably a half mile from here. And that entailed--they would bring their uranium in, in long rods, about an inch and half in diameter in boxcars. And then they would come into--lathe operators, operating a lathe. And they would turn down the outer part of the rod. And then they would come in certain lengths to be canned in aluminum cladding. And so we were working there at that job for a while. And it was interesting, the uranium shavings from the lathe would fall down, and they'd catch on fire, kind of like magnesium does. So they had to keep putting out the fires of the burning uranium shavings. Arata: And how long did you work there at 300? Johanson: Not very long. It was just a few weeks I think. We had to wear all kinds of protective clothing. And it was so hot in there, they had an air conditioning tube coming down to each worker. So I didn't care for that. Arata: And what did you do after that? Johanson: Pardon? Arata: What did you do after that? Johanson: Well, I got into ironworking for a while. And I worked out there as an ironworker and worked there about a year as an ironworker in the tank farm areas. And then I went down to McNary Dam and went to work down there for the final push on getting McNary Dam finished. And then in '53, I also worked on the missile bases out in the area and over in Wahluke Slope, across the river from Hanford. And it was the Nike missiles that we were installing at that time. And that was before I went to McNary. And then after that, then I bunched it all and went into the insurance business. [LAUGHTER] So I was in the insurance business for the next 20 years or more, with various--a couple of companies. I was a division manager in Wenatchee for a number of years. And then I was with the superintendent of agencies for a company out of Salem, Oregon. And after that, I went into the construction business in the '70s and had a construction company, built maybe 100-and-some houses around here. Arata: So of your time working at Hanford, could you describe kind of a typical day or anything that stands out? Johanson: Well, it depends whether it was a cold day or a warm day. Some days, we had a shack that we stayed in when we weren't out actually on the job. And our downtime, we would have to spend in the shack, because they didn't want you wandering around the project. So we would do that. And then we'd go out do the work we were doing. When I was working as an ironworker, I worked in construction of the pipe trenches and so and the tanks. And if it was cold weather, we really hung around the stove. And then we'd eat lunch in there also. And when we went in there and left, we had, what they called, I think, a fivefold counter. You'd put your hands in and your feet. And it would count to see if you had any radiation or contamination of any kind. And once in a while, you'd have some. And they had a shower there where they'd have to shower people down if they had quite a bit of contamination. And I know there were several instances where they got quite a bit on them, and they had to work with them for a long time to get all the radiation, the contamination off. Arata: Were there any ways that sort of the security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Johanson: Well, we were always told to keep our mouths shut, which we didn't know what they were building out there in the '40s anyway. But some people, they didn't have any idea. They said, well, there's so much sand out there, they're making sandpaper. [LAUGHTER] And then another little kid said, well, he said, I think they're making toilet paper, because my dad brings a couple rolls home every night. [LAUGHTER] So nobody knew what they were making, so they had to imagine what it might be. Arata: How, overall, was Hanford as a place to work? Was there anything particularly rewarding or particularly-- Johanson: Well, it was rewarding in the fact that it was extremely interesting. And it was a huge job, with 50,000 workers back in the middle '40s. And while that was going on, I was in the Navy over in the Pacific somewhere, there in the Philippines and Okinawa and Shanghai, China, and so on. Arata: Sounds like maybe you could talk, just briefly, about having had that experience of being part of the war and the war effort against Japan. How did you feel when you found out it was our plutonium, from this area, that built that bomb? Johanson: Well, everybody was extremely elated to find out that our project out there had helped end the war. And because it was in the first atomic explosion, in, well, New Mexico, I guess it was, wasn't it? Yeah, and it was also the Nagasaki atomic bomb. But you couldn't help but feel some real distress over the fact of how many people it killed. And it was a very sobering thought. On the other hand, if we hadn't of used them, they would have probably cost a million lives of the Japanese and the Americans, because they weren't going to give up. And that would've been the battle to the bitter end. So I was down in the South Pacific somewhere when they dropped the bombs. And so we were kind of thankful, because we were going to be heading up there to try and finish it off. The ship, you may remember hearing about it, who was the USS Indianapolis, a cruiser, and they had taken one of the atomic bombs to--was it Tinian, I think. And it was secret journey, naturally. And they got torpedoed and sunk. It wasn't probably about 500 miles from where we were in the South Pacific. And there was about, I think, 800 of them didn't survive. And they couldn't even get rescued, because they were on a secret journey, and nobody knew where they were, not many people. And it was pretty grim. And from there, we went up to Okinawa. We were up there for a while. And it was a pretty bad spot there. Most of the fighting was over. It was over then when I went up there. And I had a friend who was up to the mountains. I don't know what they were doing up there. But he was a corpsman in the Navy. But he was up there with some Marines. And they were living in tents up in the mountains, in the hills. And it sounds pretty gross, but they would go out, every day. And the war was over. It was actually over. They'd go out everyday and hunt Japs. And this guy, he told me, he says, it's just like hunting jackrabbits at home. [LAUGHTER] So it was pretty sobering also. Because they were--you know, the Japanese, a lot of them thought the war was still on. And they didn't know that it was over. And you couldn't blame them. They were trying to do their job. Oh, that was really a sad situation. And we were anchored out of a bay there. There was typhoon showed up. We put up out to sea, and we were three days. That typhoon kept going just for three days. In the daytime, it was almost like nighttime. And there were a couple hundred small craft that didn't make it, little mine sweepers and things. People talk about waves that are 100 feet high? There really are. But to get back to working out at Hanford, there were a lot of people. We had people that we let them put their trailers in our backyard, because they didn't have any place to stay. And they just had little camp trailers. Rather than stay in the big trailer court at out Hanford, they preferred to stay like where we had shade trees and so on. And their kids went to school there. And then the two fellows that stayed in our backyard, their names were Bill and George Gale. And they'd come out from Kansas. And they came out to work at the Hanford project. And they worked out there was as machinists and welders. And then they saved their money and not long after that initial construction, they opened up a car dealership. And then they eventually moved to Yakima and had a car dealership. And they had the White Bus dealership. White Trucks, that was a brand name. And they sold dozens and dozens of those buses to the Hanford project. And so if anybody, your folks or anybody, can remember working out there and riding the green buses, those all came from their shop, Bill and George Gale. Arata: How many people would you say camped out there at any one time? Johanson: In our backyard? Arata: Mm-hm. Johanson: Them and they had families, the two of them, their wives and children. And then one of them's father and his wife and a younger sister of them lived out there also. And we enjoyed having them. I was in high school at that time before I left to go to the Navy. And they were good mechanics, so they helped me keep my car running. I had a Ford Roadster— Arata: Nice. Johanson: --back then. In fact, I still have a Ford Roadster. I belong to the Old Car Club of the Tri-Cities. And I have four, old cars. Arata: Wonderful. Johanson: A '32 Ford Roadster and a 1931 Model A Coupe, they both have rumble seats, and then a '63 Thunderbird Landau and 1954 Kaiser Manhattan. Arata: Wow. We've heard a couple stories of people going out and actually finding cars on the Hanford site. Johanson: Oh, yeah, back then, they'd find cars out there that people had left. And of course, now they'd be a treasure trove. But there were a lot of cars out there that people just abandoned when they got kicked off their property, evicted. That was a tough deal for a lot of people. Some of them spent their whole lives out there. And they had farms and orchards and families and, of course, the schools. And they were just plain evicted. And they didn't have much time. So a lot of them moved to Richland and Benton City and Kennewick and Pasco. And it was an exciting time, and it was a sad time at the same time. But it was pretty exciting for a guy that was 15, 16 years old. Arata: I wonder if you can maybe just talk a little bit about some of the changes when people started pouring in to this area to start building this site. Johanson: Oh, it was pretty grim at times, because you had so many people coming in, and they were out in the men's barracks and so on. And they'd have murders. And I remember my mother was on the federal jury in Yakima, had a couple of murder cases. You know, you get that many men in one spot, some of them aren't going to get along. We had a lot of gambling and throwing the dice and card games. It was like a den of iniquity. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Now, did you ever come to Richland, as maybe a teenager, and witness any of these changes? Johanson: Well, yeah, over two or three, four years, you can remember the construction and the building of the houses, all the alphabet houses and the prefabs. Of course, all the prefabs were built without foundations. And there was a lot of work in the later years of contractors putting in foundations on the prefabs that hadn't had any. And the prefabs were heated with a portable 220 volt heater, about 2,000 or 2,500 watts. In fact, I have one in my shop from way back in the '40s. And it still works, the 220 volt heater. And you could buy them, but I doubt if you could find them nowadays. We had the movie theater, out here, at Hanford, here, not far from where we’re at right now. In fact, it was just up the road here, south of here. And they had gigantic mess halls. And I worked out there as a teamster for a while, too, as a truck driver and swamper. So you worked in a warehouse. And we had plenty of off time. We'd throw dice. It was always fun to gamble a little bit. We couldn't go out to Toppenish, to the Legends Casino then. [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah. Arata: Is there anything else that stands out to you about the community life in Richland during that time? Johanson: What? Pardon? Arata: Is there anything else that stands out about community events or community life in Richland? Johanson: Yeah, they used to have a Richland celebration. I forget what it was called, Frontier Days or something, I believe. Arata: Atomic Frontier Days. Johanson: Yeah. And we come down and watch the parade. And it was interesting, very interesting and a lot of fun. And we'd also, up where the Lutheran church is, on the corner of Van Giesen and-- what is that other street that runs north and south? Anyhow, where the Lutheran church is now, there used to be a grange building. It was an old wooden building. And they held grange meetings there. And we used to go there. And they'd have dances in the old building. I don't believe it was a church at that time. Van Giesen was how you came from Benton City to get into Richland. And you'd turn right there and go down that street. And it was all alfalfa fields around here then. So that building was out in the middle of nowhere then, on the corner of Van Giesen. And they had fairs. And people would bring their canned goods and have it judged. My dad's two older brothers were bachelors, John and Charlie Johanson. And they lived in Benton City. And those two old bachelors, they canned stuff and beautiful products that they'd put out. And they'd go down and win prizes and ribbons at the fair, little fair they'd have there at the old dance hall. That was probably before Hanford. And as it spread out and started building houses for the project, then all those alfalfa fields became developments. I've had a lot of friends that lived in the alphabet houses. They were there well-built buildings. They're still standing. And a lot of them are overhauled and remodeled, but there's still a lot of fine houses that are still here from the old days. Arata: Yeah. So was there a fairly substantial influx of students to your school then? Johanson: Back before Hanford, Benton City School used to play Richland, because they were in the same league then. Because Richland was only about 300 people. And they had the families--I remember some of their names, the Van Dynes, they had a big family. And they played. We used to play them in basketball, against the Van Dyne brothers. And there were several others. I can't remember their names now. A lot of good athletes came out of Richland even during that time. And as they got bigger and bigger, larger, Richland High became a real force in the sports competition. Arata: So J.F.K. visited Hanford in 1963. Were you around for that? Johanson: In '63? No, that's when I lived in Wenatchee. I was division manager for Prudential Insurance Company up there. Arata: Okay. So you worked at Hanford until about 1954? Do I have that correct? Johanson: I worked until 1953. Arata: ’53. Johanson: A lot of places now, that were places I remember then, were like the corner by where the post office is now. And across the street, there's some offices on the west side of Jadwin. And that used to be a huge, big drugstore. And a lot of people would just hang out there, because they had a soda fountain. And it was an interesting place to be, meet all the young folks around there. Arata: I imagine it must've been exciting meeting people from all different places. Johanson: It was, because you'd meet people from all over the United States. People would come up from the South, the Midwest, as far as Florida. It would really broaden your scope, a lot more than being just raised in a little, dinky town, and then meeting all the people from the big cities and the eastern part of the United States. And they were different, the same but different. And when Bill and George Gale, they'd got to our place and parked their trailers under the trees, their dad was going to come out. And of course, they had accents. From Kansas to us, they had an accent. And George, he called, talked to his dad. We had an old telephone that was on the wall. You know, you had to crank it. He talked to dad back in Kansas. And he said, "wull," he says, dad, he says, if you have "tar" trouble, "wor" us. If you have tire trouble, wire us. [LAUGHTER] That was the way they talked. To us, it was humorous, but that's, you know, that's the way they were. Arata: You sounded a little funny to them, too. Johanson: They were wonderful people, too. Wonderful people. Arata: Now how did that come about that they came to camp on your property? Johanson: Well, they didn't want to stay out on the huge trailer camp out in Hanford. And they'd rather drive back and forth and have their kids go to the school, local school. And then it was kind of a paradise compared to some places, with great big shade trees. And the trailers were in the shade. It was good, a lot better place than being out in the desert. Arata: So they just happened to run into your dad somewhere? Johanson: I don't know. I think what they did was they were traveling around, scouting around, and they saw our place. And there weren't many places to stay at all. So they were extremely happy to find a place in order to park. And they were there about two years, I think. Arata: So they would pay your dad some sort of rent? Johanson: He charged them some rent. But it was really low, like $15 a month or something like that. Of course, wages weren't high then, either, because they were about--they were under $2 an hour at that time. I did a stint of--when I was ironworking, we went up to Coulee Dam. And I worked up there for a while and started out at $1.85 an hour and doing hard work. Now, the minimum wage is going over $10 an hour. We'd have thought we'd died and gone to heaven if we could get $6 an hour. Arata: Right. So were wages at Hanford comparatively better to what you? Johanson: Oh, they were better then. Because there, on the farm, we'd hire people to pick potatoes in sacks. And they'd get maybe like $0.02 or $0.03 a sack for picking them. If they were good, they'd make $2 or $3 a day. And the wages were like $0.25 an hour back in the '30s and into the time the project started. And then all the wages started going up to where you could make $75 a week. Even as an ironworker, I'd make about $75 a week. And then that work on down at McNary Dam, I was a foreman down there. And I got $2.25 an hour, so really cashing in. [LAUGHTER] Arata: So I wonder--most of my students do not remember the Cold War. It's like a foreign time period for them. Johanson: Right. Arata: Do you have any thoughts that you think it's important for the next generation to know about what America's role was during that time? Johanson: Well, the main role of keeping the peace and balancing the competition with Russia. It wasn't just Russia then. It was their whole group of countries that are separate countries now. And we know about, with the Ukraine and so on, what's going on right now. But it was a pretty scary at times. I remember where there was a time when everybody was putting in bomb shelters. And they were teaching kids to duck and cover in the schools. Get next to a concrete wall and cover your head as if that would have done any good. But we didn't have much else, much other choice. And a lot of people did put in bomb shelters. But I think in the end, it was not backing down. I think all of our Presidents have been outstanding, not just one or two, but from Roosevelt on up, through the start of World War II, and people like Harry Truman. It took a lot of guts to order them to drop the bombs on those poor people over there in Japan. And then continuing on, they were all good Presidents, I think. And they all played a role, whether they were Republicans or Democrats. You got to be good to get to be President. You have to have something on the ball. I won't get in to any politics. Arata: You can if you want to. [LAUGHTER] I’m curious, if you could talk for just a moment. It's kind of a side note to working at Hanford. But do you recall where you were when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Johanson: Yeah. It was in school time. School wasn't out. And the next day, we had an assembly. They had an assembly in the large auditorium at the school there in Benton City. They had the radio on. And we were listening to President Roosevelt with his famous speech. And that was quite a--really, the kids were scared. Everybody was scared that they were going to be coming here, bombing us, too. And they probably could have. And they probably would have except for the Japanese admiral that warned them not to. He said because, if you get over there and try to invade the United States, he said, there will be a gun behind every blade of grass. So he says, don't do it. That was probably a slight exaggeration, but he got his point across. [LAUGHTER] There was probably a gun behind every two blades of grass. Every blade of asparagus. [LAUGHTER] Arata: That's the end of my questions. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about, any other stories that stand out to you? Johanson: Mm. I remember a story about when they completed the N Reactor. It was a dual-purpose reactor. It produced uranium, for the war effort, for the military and also electricity. And I have a program from when President Kennedy came out and gave a speech and turned on the reactor. If I can find it here. And I would like to--if you guys would like to have it— Arata: We’d love to— Johanson:--for your work, I'd like to donate it. Arata: Oh, really? Johanson: It shows President Kennedy on the front. Let's see. All the official program and the story behind it, the atomic wand that he used. The atomic wand, it shows him using the wand to start the reactor and pictures of notables here. There are pictures up here. My dad, he was on the board of Washington Public Power Supply System at that time. And they were instrumental in getting the N Reactor going. And he was out there. His name is in there, Robert. His name was Robert Johanson. Arata: So your father was there. Did you get to witness this? Johanson: No. Arata: But your father did? Johanson: Yeah, he was out there, allegedly, one of the dignitaries. Arata: So did your father get to meet President Kennedy? Johanson: Oh yeah, they all got to meet him. Arata: Are there any stories about that day that he ever told you? Johanson: Like everybody else, they were all agog at getting to meet the president, President Kennewick—Kennedy. And so that was an exciting time for them. And literally thousands of people went out to the event. Arata: I've never seen an actual program. Johanson: Oh, that's one of the original ones that they got. And I think it would be maybe useful in your teaching. Arata: Yes, we would love to digitize this and make it available on our project website. Johanson: I was instrumental in starting an insurance company here, too. And there's a picture. Arata: So this is your--is this you or your father? This is you. Johanson: That's me. Yeah. Then also there's a big deal. Here's an old newspaper. This is Friday, February 18, 1966. That was the Tri-City Herald. And there's yours truly, right there. Arata: These are great. Johanson: And we employed people. And we sold stock all over the State of Washington. Arata: Wow, we would love to take some images of this. And we're happy to get it back to you. Johanson: Okay, sure. Arata: We have a big scanner. We can get a full scan of the whole thing. Johanson: Oh, great, yeah. It's kind of a yellowed newspaper after--how long has that been now?--50 years. Arata: A while. Wow. Yes, we would love to make this available. Johanson: And we had people, we had people on our board of directors that were like Sam Volpentest. He was a big name here, you know. He was a mover and a shaker. This was a brochure we had. It shows all of the board of directors and so on. Woman off screen: Sam Volpentest was really instrumental in keeping the money come out here for further development out in the area. So the economy kept going on here. Along with what's his name? Who was the representative? Skip? It was Skip something. Is that the right guy? There was a legislator who did a lot of good work for us too. But Sam Volpentest, there's lots of stuff named after him now. He was a big guy. Arata: There you go. I just learned something. Johanson: Pardon? Arata: I just learned something important. Johanson: Oh. Yeah, if I could have those back when you're finished. Woman: Of course. In fact, I can take them. Arata: We can, actually. Woman: If we're finished up, I can take them right down and bring them back. Is there anything else? Arata: Can you do that? Yeah, is there any other stories you'd like to share with us, anything else? Johanson: I'll probably think of a lot when I get home. Woman: That's usually how it works. Johanson: Well, the one about going out and getting the cider press. I think we were going to make some hooch or something. Arata: [LAUGHTER] Johanson: Hard cider. Arata: And did you? Johanson: I think so. Yeah. But we used to--you know, Hanford and White Bluffs were our opposing teams, because they were in the same league. And Richland was in the same league then. I think Prosser and Grand View, I think they were playing football. We had football. Benton City had never had football until I was a senior in high school there. And then we had football. We lost almost every game, because none of us had played football before. But by then, Hanford and White Bluffs, they didn't have football either. Kennewick and Pasco did and Prosser and Grand View. And our quarterback broke his arm, so he played the rest of the season with his arm, left arm in a cast. Arata: With a cast on and kept playing? [LAUGHTER] Johanson: Yeah, he kept playing, believe it or not. [LAUGHTER] Trying to think of some other things associated with Hanford. It was a big part of our lives, because that was the big deal. And the towns and Richland jumped from 300 people to several thousand almost overnight. And even out at the Richland Y, there were a lot of businesses out there at that time. Originally, there was only one business there. When you went from like Kiona to Kennewick, you would go through the Richland Y. And there was a service station there, and that's all there was there at that time. And eventually, there got to be several stores and restaurants and so on there, too. But there were a lot of people, they'd go to work, and there'd be a termination wind, a good old Tri-City windstorm with the dust blowing. And there would just be a line of them heading back home to where they came from, whether it be Kansas or Oklahoma or whatever. But they came out here, and a lot of them stayed, because it was still better than where they'd come from. Because a lot of them came right out of the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma. If you've ever seen the movie Tobacco Road, that's an old movie, it's good to get it and watch it. It gives you an idea of what things were like back then. Those were the people. And they'd come into town with old cars, old Model A Fords and so on. And they'd have suitcases and trunks up on top, tied down with ropes, and old trucks and everything. It looked like an evacuation of a war zone. And a lot them would just camp along the road, between the Y and Kennewick. Of course, the road went down where the park is now. And there were farms along there. A lot of the people coming into town to work would stop and camp along there, along the way, because they probably camped along the way, all the way up from wherever they came from, the Midwest. And then you had a lot of more sophisticated people, like the scientists, too, that came out. But they were the ones who got the plumb housing. Arata: Hey. Johanson: And you had the top-notch people, like Fermi and people like that that were the fathers of the atomic era. They lived here, too, some of them. Some of them just came out from Chicago and places like that to work. So like I said, I'll probably think of a lot more things when I get home. Arata: Always. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming in and spending this time with us and sharing your memories. Johanson: That's okay. At my age, you have a lot of time on your hands. Arata: It was wonderful. Johanson: Time on your hands! [LAUGHTER] Arata: Lots of stuff we hadn't heard before, so it was really great. Johanson: Pardon? Arata: You had lots of stuff. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 200 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:28 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1948-1953 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. George, Bill & Gale Roosevelt, Franklin D. Truman, Harry Johansen, Robert Volpentest, Sam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Johanson Description An account of the resource An interview with Richard Johanson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) 300 Area Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-13: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 Washington Public Power Supply System https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F85876d074169360615ad29a1a904f145.JPG bc53339af15a2920bba8e308061271cb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F75acc14b070ab69b463520ab9835d311.mp4 903cb1901c035c5d398ddd6c0ca3859a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rickie Robinson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Richie Robinson— Rickie Robinson: Rickie. Franklin: Rick—sorry, I keep doing that. Rickie Robinson. On February 16th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Rickie about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Robinson: My name is Rickie Wright Robinson. R-I-C-K-I-E, W-R-I-G-H-T, R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Rickie. So usually I start by asking people about how they came to the Hanford area—or to the Tri-Cities—but your parents were the first ones in your family to come here, right? Robinson: Yes, they— Franklin: So what—oh, sorry, go ahead. Robinson: They moved to Pasco in 1947 and opened a little restaurant. They called it the Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Okay. And why did your parents move to Pasco? Robinson: They were recently discharged, if you will. My dad was from the Navy. Because he fought in World War II. They were actually planning on moving from Seattle—they were living in Seattle at the time. They were actually planning on moving to San Diego. They told me that they heard about this place over in southeastern Washington where you could go and make a lot of money. Because there was this Hanford thing going on. Wheat country, and all that, and so forth. So they drove over here, and liked what they saw, and decided to stay. They always used to chuckle about that, because they had already sent all of their stuff to San Diego. When they got here, they said, whoa, we’d better stay here. So they came, bought a piece of property over in east Pasco, just adjacent to the railroad tracks there on Queen Street, and opened the little restaurant. Franklin: Besides the economy, what also was—why else were your parents attracted to the area? Was there already a pretty large black community in east Pasco? Robinson: Not really. Not at that time. In 1947, there were black people that were starting to come into the Tri-Cities, as with all of the Pacific Northwest, mostly because of the economy that was happening here in the State of Washington. Western Washington, of course, there was Boeing and all of that. Over here, it was Hanford, and these big farms and all that kind of stuff. But what attracted the black people here at that time was the work that was available in construction and so forth, here at Hanford. Franklin: Did your parents—either of your parents ever work at Hanford? Robinson: A little bit. My dad, he worked as a carpenter for a little while, and he also worked in one of the plants out there, I think it was B Plant. But not for very long. For the bulk of his time at work here, he worked at the Tri-City Country Club. He was the assistant manager of not only the Tri-City Country Club but the Walla Walla Country Club and Yakima Country Club. So, as a family, we lived in all three cities, but we spent most of our time here in the Tri-Cities. My mother, she was a social worker for the Pasco School District. Franklin: Your mom left a pretty big imprint in Pasco, right, and the school district. Robinson: Yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about that. Robinson: Yes, she was hired by the superintendent at the time. His name was Lewis Ferrari. Dr. Lewis Ferrari. He was concerned about the lack of communication between the Pasco School District and the African American community. Of course, this was in the early-to-mid ‘60s, and of course, if you read your history books, you know what was going on in the country in the time about Civil Rights and all that. He was extremely concerned about that, and since my mother had some experience in doing Campfire Girls and other things like that around the community, he hired her and created a position that was called ombudsman. So her job was to do outreach, to make sure the kids got to school, got what they needed to perform well in school like that. Kind of an outreach of that, she interacted with a lot of families and so forth. This was also the time when a lot of the migration started taking place with the Hispanic people moving into the Tri-Cities to work on the farms and so forth like that. And then something started to happen with that population of people: they started to stay, as opposed to come up for seasons and then go back to Texas or Mexico or wherever they were from. They started to stay. And she had—she interacted with a lot of Hispanic people as well as the black families in Pasco. Franklin: So the early-to-mid ‘60s, then, that’s that moment where Pasco really starts to diversify—where the Hispanic population starts becoming more permanent? Robinson: More permanent, and of course the black population was becoming more pronounced, more vocal. Pasco had its share of marches and things like that to articulate their need for fair treatment for housing and all the other things that were going on all across the country. And it was happening here in the Tri-Cities as well. Predominantly in Pasco at that time. Franklin: Do you remember any specific events in Pasco connected to the civil rights movement? Robinson: Yes, I remember some marches that were taking place. Of course, I was a young kid and a teenager at the time. I remember some strife that was going on at Pasco High. Because I went to Pasco High. There was some strife going on at Pasco High. School got closed down a few times. Franklin: Really? Robinson: Yeah. Franklin: What for? Robinson: As I recall, there were some bomb threats that were phoned in. No bombs were ever found. But when a bomb threat would come in, then they would close the school. And there were fights and things like that. Thankfully, no shootings. You know. But we had our share. Franklin: Okay. Where were your parents from? Where were your parents born? Robinson: My dad was born in San Antonio, Texas. My mom was born in Memphis, Tennessee, but she was raised in Saginaw, Michigan. Franklin: Oh, okay. Robinson: And they met in Douglas, Arizona. Never could figure out what my mother was doing in Douglas, Arizona, because she got married at an early age, age 16—not to my dad, to another guy. So from age 16 up until just before she met—married my father, she lived in Chicago. She was a waitress and things like that. My dad, on the other hand, was on his way to Los Angeles from San Antonio, because his family had a long history of culinary work, working in hotels and things like that. He worked in some of the prominent hotels in San Antonio, Texas. I can’t recall the name of this big prominent hotel, but it’s adjacent to the Alamo. And I remember the last time I took my dad home to San Antonio, he said, that, that was my first job there. It was this big hotel, and it’s adjacent to the Alamo. But he had a long history of that. Anyway, he was on his way to Los Angeles to work with his uncles who had moved to Los Angeles. There were a lot of opportunities for culinary work down there. When he was in Douglas, Arizona, where one of his uncles lived, he got his draft notice for the Navy. And he ended up in Seattle. So he never made it Los Angeles. He and my mother met in Douglas, Arizona. My father was also coming out of a marriage that was falling apart. The two of them met. When he got drafted, he went to Seattle and so forth, and then he sent for my mom, and they got married in 1945. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: And then moved to the Tri-Cities in 1947. Franklin: Okay. I wanted to ask a bit about segregation, both formal and informal. So your parents, at least where they were born, would have experienced formal segregation, Jim Crow. But the North was kind of an area of informal segregation. Robinson: Informal, yes. Franklin: Did your parents ever talk about their experiences with the informal segregation of the North and in Pasco specifically? Robinson: Well, yes. They told me a story—of course, back then, when black people moved to the Tri-Cities, they were only shown property in east Pasco, which was east of the railroad tracks. So there were not any black people, that I can recall, that lived on the west side of the tracks. They told me some stories that had happened. In fact, a real incident of segregation, if you will, happened to my aunt, who’s my mom’s sister. She was pregnant with her second child, and it was in the middle of the summer on one of those 100-degree-plus days here in Pasco that we all love. She was pregnant, she walked into a Payless Drugstore—at that time Payless Drugstore was located on the corner of 4th and Lewis in Pasco. And she wanted a glass of water, and they wouldn’t give it to her. She just wanted a glass of ice water. They wouldn’t give it to her. So that’s one incident that they used to talk about. There’s also another incident that kind of happened like before my time that they used to talk about. There was an incident at the Greyhound bus station in Pasco. I can’t recall the details of it, but because of that incident, the Washington State Human Rights Commission was formed. Because, I think they would not—this story was told to me—they would not let this woman use the bathroom there. It turns out that that woman that they would not let use the bathroom was the wife of Adam Clayton Powell. Franklin: Yes. That she—and her name escapes me—it wasn’t the bathroom; they wouldn’t serve her lunch. Robinson: Okay, I knew it was something, yeah. Franklin: And the reason she was given—this was in 1949—was that we don’t serve blacks here. You can get your food to go, was the— Robinson: Right, yeah. And so that was the wrong woman to do that to. Franklin: Yeah. Robinson: So, anyway, that’s a thing of—a good thing coming out of a bad incident. Franklin: Right, you mean the formation of the civil rights commission— Robinson: Yeah, the civil rights commission and things of that nature. And, you know, incidents like that, they’re ugly, but oftentimes, they turn out to be good things, because they spur people into motion. Franklin: Right, yeah, definitely. What about—to your knowledge, were people ever shown property in Kennewick? What was the relationship between Kennewick and Pasco at that time, vis-à-vis African Americans and housing? Robinson: Well, we grew up—when I was growing up here, there was this—I don’t know if it was an unwritten rule, or if it was a written rule someplace, that all black people had to be out of Kennewick by sundown. They used to say there was a sign there. I personally never saw the sign. But there was that kind of unwritten rule. I will say, an incident that happened to me personally—and this was after I was old enough to have my own car; I think I was maybe 19, maybe 20 years old at the time, so that would have been in 1970, 1971, or ’72. Somewhere in that neck of the woods. I was driving in Kennewick in my car in the middle of the afternoon, and I was pulled over by the police. He wanted to know what I was doing in Kennewick. I’ve never been—I’m no angel, you know, but I’m not a square, either, but I was never on the police radar, if you will, as somebody that they needed to keep an eye on. So I thought that was weird, that he would pull me over and ask me what I was doing in Kennewick at 3:00 in the— Franklin: Did he give you a reason, like for a traffic infraction or something? Robinson: What he told me is that there was a report of somebody doing something inappropriate over at Kennewick High School. I wasn’t anywhere near Kennewick High School when that went down, whatever he was talking about. I don’t know if the description was of my car or whatever. But that was it. Now, he did let me go. I wasn’t arrested or anything like that. But, you know. It was just an odd question to be asking somebody at 3:00 in the afternoon, why are you in Kennewick? Franklin: Right, and you felt you had been singled out because of your race. Robinson: Oh, definitely. Franklin: Okay, let me see here. We actually already covered quite a bit of my—oh, so you had mentioned that blacks were only shown homes in east Pasco. So that east Pasco seems to be kind of the locus of the black community in the Tri-Cities. Robinson: It was at that time. Franklin: It was at that time. I’m wondering if you could talk a bit more about growing up there. What were the important institutions? What was community life like? Robinson: Oh, it was nice, because we were a close-knit community. All of our churches were over there. I went to St. James CME Church, but there was also Morning Star Baptist Church, there was Church of God and Christ, there was Greater Faith Baptist and New Hope Baptist Church. So we would do a lot of things over there. The focus of our activities as kids in east Pasco was Kurtzman Park. That was the spot. And it was originally, I remember, it was called Candy Cane Park. Because I remember it had these little candy cane things on it when I was a little kid. But it was later renamed to Kurtzman Park, because I think the gentleman who donated to the city that land that he owned there, with the specificity that it be made into a park for the kids that lived in east Pasco. So that was—I never—I don’t know anything about that guy or—nothing, but that was what was told. Franklin: Cool. What kind of housing did you live in? Could you describe it? Robinson: I was fortunate. I lived in a regular house. Like I said, my dad opened a restaurant when he moved here. They bought a piece of property, and my dad—I mentioned he was a carpenter, along with being a culinary artist, he was also a carpenter—so, he made a portion of that house—no, I’ll take that back. He found an overturned trailer and pulled it up onto the property. It had been abandoned. He went through all of the legal hoops that you have to jump through for a trailer and so forth. Got it licensed and so forth, fixed it up and made it into a restaurant, and it was right adjacent to our house. So I grew up in what would be called middle class. So my housing was fine, and there were many people in east Pasco who had built their own homes. Because many of the people who lived in east Pasco, they came up here, they were tradesmen. They were bricklayers, carpenters, et cetera, et cetera. So they had built their own homes. And of course there were other homes that were not so good. But for the most part, life was fine. We had dirt roads for streets. One of the biggest pieces of amazement for me as someone who grew up in Pasco is Oregon Street. Because when I was little, Oregon Street was all but a dirt road. And now it’s this big, wide boulevard that goes all the way through, across the tracks and so forth. Back then, it didn’t. It kind of ended down where we lived. Franklin: So that trailer that your dad found, that’s what became the Queen Street Diner. Robinson: That was the first one, yeah. And before we actually named it—well, he named it the Queen Street Diner, and his thing was Texas fried chicken. Because, you know, he’s from Texas. But around town, they used to call it the Squeeze Inn. Franklin: Because it was— Robinson: Because it was just a trailer. And it was kind of like the hot spot at the time for people to come and socialize and so forth. So you know, you could only get so many people in a trailer. So they called it the Squeeze Inn. Franklin: [CHUCKLING] That’s really funny. Yeah. Did your parents ever talk to you much about working at Hanford? And what exactly they did, or what kind of projects they worked on? Robinson: Well, like I said, my dad was a carpenter. And also he worked at B Plant. I think it was B Plant; I could be wrong about exactly where. But not really in terms of the details about they did—what he did out there. My mom never worked at Hanford. She always worked in social work kinds of things. Most of that—she was like a 25-year employee with the Pasco School District. So they didn’t talk about that that much. Again, like I said, most of the time, when my dad was working, he was at the country club. So he’d go to work with a suit on and everything like that. Everybody thought we were rich. But we weren’t. Franklin: Did your dad ever talk about experiencing any discrimination or segregation at work? Robinson: Mm, not at work. Most of the time, when they talked about segregation and things like that, it was stuff that would happen in the community. Not necessarily at work. He never came home and told me stories about, do you know what happened, do you know what they said at work? And that’s not to say that they didn’t happen, but my parents had a way of dealing with that stuff, and they taught us how to deal with that, in such a way to be productive about it. Because we were always taught that we weren’t any better than anybody else. But believe me, nobody was better than us. And so we were to act a certain way that demanded respect and to give people respect. I remember--kind of a sidetrack to that—when urban renewal came through—because we lived on the east side when I was a little kid—right there kind of where Tommy’s Steel and Salvage is now, that’s where we used to live. And it’s kind of funny when I drive by there now, because I can still see some of the trees that were in my backyard at the time. They’re still there all these years later. But when urban renewal came through—and I think this was at the onset of the Johnson Administration—so they came and bought my parents out and so forth, and we moved to the west side of town. Right across the street from what is now a Boys and Girls Club in Pasco. Shortly after we moved there, there was a gentleman that lived across the street from us who actually knew my dad, because my dad worked at the country club and he was a member of the country club. He put his house up for sale, shortly after we moved there. And he came over and told my dad that he’s putting his house up for sale, he says, but believe me, we’d been planning on doing this for a long time. He was very apologetic to my father. Because you know, back then, there was the thing about white flight. Franklin: Right, right. Very well documented. Robinson: And so what my dad told him, and I’ll never forget this, he said, that’s okay, he said, because I’m going to put my house up for sale, too, but I’m going to get it while it’s hot. That’s how he handled that kind of stuff. Because, again, he always taught us—they always taught us—that we’re equal to everybody. So if the housing market is hot, he’s going to take advantage of it, and not be insulted by the fact that somebody put his house up for sale because this quote-unquote black family was moving in. Now, kind of ironically, they never did move. [LAUGHTER] The people across the street. Franklin: I guess the market wasn’t all that hot. Robinson: Exactly, I guess not. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that is a very well—you know, white flight occurred all across the—did you hear anything else—did that happen other places in west Pasco? How did west Pasco react to the urban renewal? Robinson: You know, I cannot say how it was. I can’t—because I was a kid. At that time, Pasco’s a small town. So as kids growing up together, black and white—we were kids. We’d always know what was taught to kids in their own homes about us, but we as kids would interact like kids do. Of course, there were times that we would fight, like I said earlier, there was a strife. And of course, if the wrong words were ever said, oh, it was on. But we never experienced seeing that kind of stuff to that degree that we see on TV, like people out protesting, keeping the black people out and stuff like that. I mean, again, we’re in the Pacific Northwest, so things were a little different here. I also shared with you the story about my aunt and being refused a glass of water. I’m sure it was 110 out that day. They wouldn’t give her a glass of ice water and she was pregnant! So, sure, there was that kind of stuff going on. But organized activities, demonstrating against black people moving places—I cannot recall that ever happening. But I am sure that—we would go into a store, and you could notice sometimes that people were kind of watching out, and watching you. Sometimes, it weighed on us. It was sorrow. We—at least in my household, we were taught how to deal with that. Franklin: Yeah, I think, subtle’s a really good word for that kind of— Robinson: Yeah. Franklin: It’s there, but it’s sometimes hard to get a real handle on it. Robinson: Yeah, it’s subtle, it’s subtle-slash-sleazy. I mean, because—you know what was going on. Franklin: Right, right, it’s like, clear, but subtle at the same time. Robinson: Right. Franklin: What kind of opportunities were available for betterment in the community for folks that came—like, maybe educational or monetary or job training or things like that? Robinson: Well, by the time—if you’re talking about me, by the time I reached the age of where those things became important, I—I got jobs. The first job that I had was, ironically, with the Pasco School District as—you know, I was a student—what do they call that? Oh, I sold ice cream during lunch hour. That was my first little paycheck. Oops. Take that back. My first job was with the Pasco School District, but it was as a janitor, because they had some kind of program—again, it was when—the ‘60s and so forth. So it was one of those social programs to give kids the opportunity to do work and earn some. So I was a janitor—a part-time janitor with the Pasco School District. Then I became the lunch—that was my senior year in high school, when I became the lunch guy. That was cool, because I got both lunch hours. I sold ice cream. I was a senior and had all my credits, so it was kind of—my senior year in high school was kind of a picnic, if you will. Franklin: And everybody likes the ice cream guy. Robinson: Yeah. And then my first job out of high school was with the City of Pasco. I was a lifeguard. And then I worked at Grigg’s. I did not feel—and maybe it was because I was too young to know what was going on—but I did not feel any discrimination that way. Again, it could be because my family—you know, we talked about my mom a little bit. She was pretty well-known; our family was pretty well-known in the Tri-Cities at that time. Maybe it was because I was that Robinson kid. I don’t know. But I didn’t feel any of that. Educational opportunities—you had to leave town, because there was no WSU Tri-Cities at the time. You had to go out of town to go to college. I went to Eastern, myself—Eastern Washington State College. And then it became Eastern Washington University. Yeah. And then I am part of the first class to graduate from Eastern Washington University. Franklin: Oh, okay. Robinson: Yeah, when I went up there it was Eastern Washington State College, and then they got the designation of university. So I’m in the first class that graduated from Eastern Washington University. Franklin: That’s cool. Robinson: Shows my age. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And what did you get your college degree in? Robinson: I got my degree in applied psychology. I got kind of a weird degree—undergraduate degree. My degree was in applied psychology, but I minored in education so that I could get a teaching certificate. I actually came back to Pasco and I taught school for a couple of years, which makes me the second black person to graduate from Pasco schools and then come back and teach. The first person to do that was a lady that I grew up with; her name was Angie Ash. Yeah. She also grew up in Pasco schools, graduated, and went to—I think she went to Eastern, too, if I recall. And she came back and taught school, too. She did all of that a couple of years before I did. Franklin: Okay. And so you mentioned you ended up getting your teaching certificate. Robinson: Yes. Franklin: And then did you go on to school beyond that, or--? Robinson: Yes, but it wasn’t until years later. I went and got my master’s degree in business administration. But I had left the area by then. All of that kind of stuff happened over in the Seattle area which is where I live now. Franklin: Right. And what eventually—you mentioned you came back to Pasco for a few years; what eventually drew you out of the Tri-Cities? Robinson: More opportunities for what I was trying to do. I taught school for a couple of years, but after I got to teaching school, I discovered that teaching in a classroom wasn’t really for me. I used to joke around and say, I was worse than the kids. ADHD and all—that’s all me. But I love working with kids. I worked with kids all the time. During the time when I stayed here in Pasco, I was doing a lot of things with kids, with young people. I coached women’s softball, my wife and I, we organized a black Junior Miss pageant. This was back in 1976 when we did a pageant. It was an opportunity—we saw it as an opportunity for black people in the Tri-Cities to express themselves culturally, and then also it was a vehicle for us to give scholarships away for young people. We did that for ten years, before we left the area. I left the area in 1986. Franklin: Oh, that’s really wonderful. What kind of education did your parents have? Robinson: They both got their GEDs. I remember—I am old enough to remember when that happened. They got their GEDs from CBC. My dad had a ninth grade education. He dropped out of school because he needed to go to work to help his mother. My mother had a third-grade education. Franklin: Third-grade education! Robinson: Yes, she dropped out of school because her mother got sick. She was the oldest child. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: So it was on her to take care of her family, her siblings. She was the oldest child of two sisters and a brother, and then they also were raising a cousin. And that cousin now lives here in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Wow. Is this when your mother was in Michigan? Robinson: Yes, this was in Saginaw. Franklin: What kind of work was available to her with just a third-grade education at that time? Robinson: Well, when— Franklin: What did she do to support her family? Robinson: Well, by the time I came along—I was born in 1952—and by the time I came along, and when I was a little tyke, I remember that Mama would work at grocery stores, she was a checker and things like that. When we would live in Yakima, she worked at a little grocery store and so forth. When we lived in Walla Walla, I think she was a stay-at-home mom. When we moved back to the Tri-Cities, that is when she—and that was in 1963, when we moved back to the Tri-Cities for good—that’s when she started doing the social work things that became who she was as Virgie Robinson. She started a little Campfire group because she had three daughters. So she started a little Campfire group and so forth. And then she got hired on as a community liaison for an organization that was called Higher Horizons. She was a social worker and things like that. And then she got the job with the school district. But it was during that time when—I kind of think it was—I’m trying to—yeah, it was after we moved back to Pasco, and I remember when the two of them got their GED. Because they were jumping up and down. They were excited about getting their GED. I didn’t even know what a GED was. But I remember that. They were both—and they kind of got it at the same time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Robinson: Yeah. So it was something that they were doing as adults, that they were— Franklin: With kids. Robinson: Yeah, with kids and all that kind of stuff. I mean, they didn’t set us down, because, me, I was the only one old enough. Because I had—I grew up with three little sisters. I was the only one that was old enough to remember, kind of, that stuff. But they never sat us down and told us, okay, we’re getting our GED and this, that and the other. Franklin: But education was clearly pretty important to your— Robinson: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Franklin: To your parents. Robinson: Well, it was very important to them. It was very important for them to see their children get educated. And I can say, all of us have now gotten our degree in one form or another. So, yeah. Franklin: Okay, so we’ve gotten through quite a bit of—Hazel Scott, that’s her name. The lady who was in the Greyhound bus station in 1940— Robinson: Okay. Franklin: She was a very famous entertainer in the 1940s, and played all around the US and Europe. That’s right. Robinson: Okay. All right. Franklin: I just remembered—I went down my questions, and I was like, oh yeah, the Hazel Scott case. Robinson: Okay, well, it was that incident. Franklin: Yeah. I looked through the files of that incident recently in the state archives. It was very—yeah, they really picked the wrong person, because she could afford a much better lawyer than the guys that owned the Greyhound bus station restaurant could. Robinson: Absolutely, way out here in the boonies at the time. Because back then, this was way out in the middle of nowhere, the Tri-Cities. I mean, it’s still kind of isolated, but now we’ve got freeways all around. Back then, no, we were really isolated. I mean, I remember a trip to Seattle taking all day. Because it was all two-lane road between—the freeway—and I use that term generously—didn’t even start until after you come out of Cle Elum. And the house still sits there where the road would open up into what was called the freeway, which was, like I say, I use that term—[COUGH]—excuse me—generously, because it was just a four-lane highway, and they called that the freeway. Franklin: Yeah, certainly nothing compared to over there on the west side. Robinson: Oh, no. Franklin: Okay, let’s see here. I think I have gone over most of my questions. I want to talk a bit about the modern-day impact of your parents. So you’re back in town for an event named after your mom, right? Robinson: Well, yeah, we talked a little bit about the work that my mom did. When she passed away back in 2003, the Pasco School District was in this big building mode, because Pasco’s growing by leaps and bounds. At that time, you know, Pasco, I think, was the fastest growing city in the entire nation. So Pasco was building schools after schools after schools to accommodate all the kids that were coming in. So they decided to name one of their new elementary schools after my mom. So the Virgie Robinson Elementary School exists now. So what my sisters and I—I mentioned that I grew up with three little sisters—what we did, along with a niece that was also being raised with us, formed a non-profit organization called the Virgie Robinson Scholarship Fund. We give out scholarships to kids who went to that school, because it’s an elementary school, if kids go to that school when they are in elementary school, when they graduate from high school, they’re eligible to apply for a scholarship that we give. So it’s just a little niche of a school, because we don’t try to serve all the kids in the Pasco School District. Just those kids there. And so I’m in town, now, because I have a Board of Directors and so forth that’s based on counselors at Pasco High, Chiawana High, some other community people here. Our big fundraiser every year is an annual golf tournament and also a silent auction event. That’s how we raise funds to give out the scholarships. So I’m in town because I have a board meeting tomorrow to continue organizing that. We do that in April every year. Franklin: You mentioned your dad worked at country clubs, so was he a big—I know golf is a major part of country clubs. Is that how you were introduced to golf or was he a big golfer? Robinson: What’s funny about that is I’m not really a golfer. I’ve got a set of clothes that was given to me by my brother. I mentioned I was raised with three little sisters; I have an older brother and an older sister that were from my dad’s first marriage. My brother’s an avid golfer. My dad was a golfer, too; he was pretty good. He actually won a trophy. There’s a trophy in our house that Dad got. But golfing, per se, was for him, and not for me. I was into the regular sports at the time. You know, the football, basketball and baseball stuff. Because when I was coming up, golfing was square. This was before Tiger Woods and all of that. They wore funny pants. We used to say we would never wear those kinds of clothes: plaid pants and all that kind of stuff. So, today, I’m not a golfer. I go out every once in a while to the driving range. I’ve gotten to the place now where I can actually hit the ball straight. I think in my entire life, I may have played two, maybe three rounds of golf—you know, a whole thing. But I’m not a golfer. But I’m good at organizing stuff. So I’ve—with help—organized this golf tournament and so forth. Community events, I mean—maybe I inherited that from my mom. I’ve always organized community events. I mentioned a little earlier how I used to do things with kids, and we did that pageant and so forth. That was a community-wide event, too. A lot of people would come to that. Franklin: That’s great. Is there anything else that you would like to mention, related to migration, segregation, civil rights, and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Robinson: Well, like everybody else, during that time, we were gaining our consciousness as black people. Because, our history here in America is well-documented. When I came along, as a youngster, that consciousness was starting to form. We ceased being “colored”—“colored” with a small c. We migrated into “Colored,” with a big C, then we migrated into “Negroes.” And then we just—I don’t know who made the decision, but we just started to reclaim our African heritage. So thus the term African Americans. So, I was coming of age with all of that, that forethought and that thinking and so forth. When I went to college, I made sure that I took a lot of classes, just so I could learn a little bit more about our history as a people in this country, to go beyond Martin Luther King, Booker T. Washington, W. E. B. Du Bois. There’s a whole lot more to it than just that. There’s Carter G. Woodson and so forth. Inventors that were going. People that invented the—what is it? The telephone transmitter. That Alexander Graham Bell made big. But it was actually invented by a black man. I think his name was Granville T. Woods, was his name. The gentleman that invented the stoplight and stuff. We were never taught that kind of stuff in regular school. So I made sure that when I was in school that I took classes so that I could learn about that. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Well, Rickie, thank you very much for coming and interviewing with us today and telling us about your life in the Tri-Cities and your parents and their struggles and triumphs. Robinson: Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks for having me. My life growing up in the Tri-Cities, I have very fond memories here of growing up in the Tri-Cities. So, in spite of all the little stuff that happens, this is still my home. Franklin: Great. Okay. Thank you. Robinson: All right. Thank you. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952-1986 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rickie Robinson Description An account of the resource Rickie Robinson was born in Pasco, Washington in 1952. Rickie's parents moved to Pasco, Washington in 1947 and were influential in the community. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/16/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Yakima (Wash.) Migration Northwest, Pacific Civil rights Civil rights movements Segregation https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F507063cefe9d78ab8e1e3049e0745d2d.jpg f91d11548c42ed5fd7a25b4de7e68794 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd26a879697db06c3efd2030ffb267ebc.mp4 1a4107fd51be81672f81bbfa3424400c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Bown Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Bown_Robert Robert Bauman: My name's Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Robert Bown on June 17 of 2013. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University in Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Bown about his experiences working at the Hanford site. Okay? Robert Bown: Yep. Bauman: Okay, great. So I'm just going to start by asking you if you could tell me how--why you first came to work atHanford? Bown: Well, I graduated at the University of Colorado, and was looking for a job. And Norm Thompson from GeneralElectric Company interviewed many people and we got together and I was hired. And I was--do you want to knowwhy I was—okay, I'll--well, I was impressed with the idea that here is a new energy system. And I wanted to be partof it. So I was pretty excited about working in this industry. Bauman: And what was your degree in? Bown: Chemical engineering. But I consider myself, now, a nuclear engineer by experience. Bauman: And so what was your initial position? What was the initial job, then, that you had? Bown: Well, started out as a technical graduate, and spent some time in training. And actually I had to have a securityclearance, so I was in a survey team laying out power lines, things like that, to begin with. Just to mark time. Whenthe clearance came, well then the work started. And I went to--you want an experience? Bauman: Absolutely. Bown: As a technical graduate, I sort of made stops at several spots so that they could look at me and I could look atthem. Went to separations and the reactors, and I chose the reactors and they concurred. And we lived happily forsome time. Bauman: And so what year was this? What year did you start? </div> </div> <div>Bown: I came here in 1948.And I left in 1971. In the meantime, I worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, the US--United States Research and--Energy Research and Development Administration, and then the Department ofEnergy.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Great. So how long for General Electric then? Bown: Well, until they left the project, whenever that was. I don't remember it precisely. Bauman: And so when you started at the reactors with your first job, were you at the B Reactor? Bown: I was at B Reactor. Bauman: What was your job there? What sort of things were you doing? Bown: Well, first of all, of course, it was in training on shift. Eventually I became a shift supervisor. And then an areasupervisor—or operating supervisor, if you will. And then I went into—since that was shift work—went into a dayjob. And I was the in charge of scheduling and forecasting of the Hanford production and integration with theseparations people and Federal Department or--yeah, the government until I actually went to work for thegovernment. Bauman: So scheduling and forecasting, what--could you maybe explain that a little bit? What did that entail? Bown: Well, there were varying numbers of reactors. And I had worked at B and H, but in my day job I worked forall of them. I scheduled the outages, and took care of the accounting for the productionof all the reactors, made the reports, and scheduled their outages. Because that takes a lot of people whenthey're shut down, so you only want one at a time. So you have to be governed partially by the need fordischarging, refueling. So you get those variables, and you come up with a schedule that efficiently utilizes theforce available. Bauman: And then--so after you did that, what was your next position then? Your next job? Bown: Well, I went to Washington, D.C. and worked for the Department of Energy there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Bown: And that's sort of a big blank period. I don't remember what I did. I must have worked hard, though. Bauman: [LAUGHTER]When you first came to the area then, where did you live? What sort of housing did you live in? And-- Bown: I lived in a ranch house. I was the prime--first occupant. So when the ranch houses were new, I got one. I lived ina little trailer in North Richland for a while. I lived in that house and ended up with two children and a lot of goodmemories. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the area like when you first arrived here? Bown: What was the which like? Bauman: What was the area like? Richland as a place to live and-- Bown: The area was a mess. The big flood of 1978 had just occurred. Smell was not too good and roads were torn up. Afresh dyke had been built and it was not fully landscaped. And it was sort of a difficult time, but we survived. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: And one of the things I like to ask people about is--Hanford was a very—a lot of security, right? Sort ofa secret site, to a certain extent. Wonder if you could talk about that at all? What did that mean for you in terms ofyour work, in terms of security? Could you drive your car to work? Did you have to--</div> <div> <div> Bown: What was that last point? Bauman: Could you drive a car to work, or did you have to take the bus? Or how did that-- Bown: Well, either one. I preferred to take the bus and let somebody else do the driving, because the areas werequite distant. But you could drive, and I would drive when necessary. And since I didn't always get my workdone in the total allotted time, I'd have to get there on my own to catch up. Bauman: And were there any other—any security issues at all? Did you--I know you had to get a special clearance to work-- Bown: Had to have a what? Bauman: Get a special clearance to work on the site? Bown: Oh, yes. Q clearance. Well, in the security situation, you don't talk too much about work away from work. But Richland—you weren't very far from work, and everybody else was in the same boat, so we could talk shopsome, since they were cleared, too. Bauman: Right, yeah. So you worked--what various places on the site did you work then? You worked at the B Reactor, youmentioned. Bown: B Reactor and H Reactor. I think I spent some time at F Reactor also. And then in town for when I was schedulingand forecasting. Bauman: Okay. At the Federal Building in town? Bown: The what? Bauman: At the Federal Building? Or-- Bown: 703. Bauman: Okay. Do you remember any--were there any events that really stand out to you? Any strange happenings ormemorable events that took place during your years working at Hanford? Things that really stand out to you? Bown: Well, there was always something happening, and usually it was bad. And you spent a lot of time recovering fromincidents, or radiation problems, or fuel element failures--for which becoming quite common when power levelswere raised up to very high levels and quality of the fuel wasn't. Incidentally, I spent a year or two in fuelproduction, too--fuel fabrication in the 300 Area. I think between the time that I was a shift supervisor and the timeI became an operating supervisor, I spent a year or two building—making fuel elements as aforeman for the crew of people working with the bare uranium. Bauman: When you worked at B Reactor and you said H Reactor also, how large of number of employees generallywere there? Bown: Well, we had--the crew was generally an operating supervisor, called an area supervisor, a shift supervisor, achief operator, four pile operators, and a couple of the next level down--whatever that was. Utility operators, Iguess they were called. And then we had side groups that didn't report to me, but were helpful. Health monitoring--or HI--health, whatever it is, and the maintenance people, we would work with. So just a general plantoperation. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Yeah. Okay. One quick thing I want to ask about was President Kennedy came to the Hanford site in 1963 todedicate the N Reactor-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --and I wanted to know--ask if you were there? Were you at the event? Any memories you have aboutthat? Bown: About when the President was there? Bauman: Yeah. Bown: Well, I wasn't personally involved with--I was just doing my job. I was impressed, of course, with the President,and the notoriety or fame that we enjoyed. Bauman: Did you and your family go out to watch him do the dedication at all? Bown: I think we did, yes. And my daughter says, okay. She was there. Bauman: Yeah. Must have been a pretty interesting—I mean it sounds--as I talk to other people they said that itwas sort of one of the first times they really opened up the site to let family members come on to the site, to seethe President. Bown: Well, it was just a big holiday. And I think they were impressed with the operation. And I hope they are againtoday. It's still there, but not operating. Bauman: Yeah. So you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, you said. Bown: Yes. Bauman: Of course much of that, the height of the Cold War. Did you have a sense ofsort of the important work youwere doing? I mean what did you--what of your, sort of, thinking about—the Cold War would have been-- Bown: As I mentioned earlier, I was pleased to be associated with a new energy at nearly the ground level. It had beengoing for a while before I got there. And I enjoyed working there. I took a part in community functions, too. Electedto City Council and my wife was elected to be one of the freeholders--20 freeholders--that wrote the--whatever it'scalled. Wrote the charter-- Bauman: The charter-- Bown: Charter, yes. Bauman: For—the City of Richland Charter? Bown: Yes. So we were involved, both of us--myself and my wife--in the founding of the city itself. It was a goingoperation before that, but under government control. Bauman: Can you talk about that a little more? When were you elected to the City Council? And what made you decide torun for a seat on the City Council? Bown: Well, I can't remember the exact date, but I was sort of encouraged to participate by an old friend, Fred Clagett,who has better credentials as an old timer. And he kind of encouraged me to work there—or to work in thecommunity. And I served on the Planning Commission, things like that. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you were very involved in-- Bown: I was quite active. Bauman: --city government-- Bown: City government, yes. Bauman: --in an early period. And you said your wife was involved in the-- Bown: Yes, freeholder operation. Bauman: Yeah. Why did--do you know why she chose to get involved in that? Why you thought it was important? I know you saidRichland initially was a federal city under federal government control. Why you thought it was important tomove to becoming a sort of independent city? Bown: Well, you like to be independent of the government control. But since they're picking up the tab, you have to listento them and accept their advice, usually. And still remain your own person. We tried not to be a servant ofthe Atomic Energy Commission, whom I generally ended up working for. But we cooperated quite nicely. We workedtogether. I think it was a fruitful situation where we-- Bauman: So what happened then when the transfer happened from federal government control to becoming anindependent city? In terms of the homes, for instance? Were people able to purchase their own homes? How didthat-- Bown: Well, they sold the homes to us at a bargain rate. It was 75% of assessed valuation, I think. So we got a gooddeal. And we were proud to be property owners. Real citizens of a free city--atomic city--famous. Bauman: Were there any--in those early years in Richland, any community events, special celebrations, or communityevents that were important to the city early on? Bown: Well, nothing really stands out. We had the general celebrations. And it was just normal--a normal city. And wehad a good time living it. Bauman: You know, what would you like future generations—maybe somebody will watch this video 20 yearsfrom now, or 50 years from now. What would you like people in the future, who might see your interview, orwatch part of it, or listen to it--what would you like them to know about working at Hanford? Bown: About what? Bauman: About working at Hanford? And what that was like. Bown: Oh, working at Hanford. Bauman: And what it was like to work at Hanford? And/or living in Richland during that-- Bown: Yeah. Well, since it was my first job, I didn't have an awful lot of experience. Well, I'd worked construction jobs,and things like that, but it was--I was proud to work for General Electric. I didn't have an emblem tattooed on me or anything, but I was a faithful cheerleader for them. And I still like General Electric. I still like the federalgovernment. And they were good to me, and I think I gave them a good--my best. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: And how long--you mentioned that you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, how long did you live in Richland?Did you move at that point? Or-- Bown: I left Richland in 1971 for a job in Washington, D.C. with the Atomic Energy Commission. Bauman: And how long were you there? Bown: Until 1986. Through several employers--General Electric, and Douglas United Nuclear, Energy Research andDevelopment. It seems like there's one--Was there another one in there? Two? Then the—yeah, Energy Research andDevelopment. Well, ended up with the Department of Energy, anyway. Bauman: And when you were in D.C., what sort of work were you doing in D.C.? What was your job there? Bown: Bureaucrat. [LAUGHTER] Well, it's hard to tell you my actual responsibilities, but--because they kept varying. But I don't know. I kept busy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then I'm going to go back now to when you first came to Hanford, you said something about sort of being amess because of the flood that year. And I know some people who came here in the '40s talked about thetermination winds, you know-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --when the dust would blow and a lot of people would leave. Bown: The winds blew. They still blew. And the dust blew. But I didn't terminate. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Bown: I was from a dry Midwestern situation, so the desert wasn't too serious a problem. Bauman: It wasn't too unusual for you. Bown: No. During the Depression and drought, the wind blew and the tumbleweeds collected in the fences, and the dustdrifted like snow and you could walk over the fences. So I'd had experience. It wasn't too different from theHanford-- Bauman: Right. Bown: --situation. It wasn't—it did rain a little more, but not much. Bauman: In your various positions working at Hanford, I was going to ask you a question about unions. Were there unions on the campus? Bown: Well, there were not, to begin with. And they were organized. And I was not involved in the bargaining unit, but Ihad to learn to work with a union as well as the people. No problem. Bauman: Did you have a favorite part—what was your favorite part of working at the Hanford site? Do you have somethingthat you really enjoyed doing during your time here that--of the various things you had to work on? Bown: Well, the scheduling and forecasting was pretty interesting. I started out just scheduling. And then they cut thenumber of reactors and I also took over the forecasting operations, and some inter-site work--the shipping off of aspecial products that you made at the reactors. I handled those. And it was a varied job, and quite interesting. Ienjoyed it. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Clearly, yeah. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about? Anything about yourexperiences either working at Hanford or living in Richland? Any special memories or things you'd like to sharethat you haven't had a chance to talk about? Bown: Well, I got myself a ski-boat and we whizzed up and down the river quite a bit. And we spent time with our family inthe Portland area, so we weren't too far from friends--from old friends and family. Climbed a few mountains.Travelled a lot--Europe, Alaska. We had a pretty full life there. Bauman: It sounds like a good place for recreational activities. Bown: Yes, and for growing a family it was real good. Bauman: And you said you had two children? Bown: Two children, daughters, are both here. Bauman: And they both grew up in Richland? Went to high school and so forth in Richland? Bown: Let's see. Where did you go to high school? Daughter: We moved when I was in 9th grade. Bown: Oh, okay. We moved east. So they ended up in Maryland for high school--most of high school. Robin went to the University ofMontana, and Karen, the younger one, went to Evergreen State College. Bauman: Well, thank you very much. Again, is there anything else that you want to talk about? Or memories you have fromworking that I haven't asked you about? Bown: Well, you've asked all the right questions. I hope I gave the right answers. Bauman: Well, thanks again, very much. I really-- Bown: Sure. Bauman: --appreciate you coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Bown: Thank you for the opportunity. Bauman: Thank you. </div> </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 703 Building B Reactor H Reactor N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1941-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1941-1971 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Clagett, Fred Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Bown Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Bown conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/17/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area 703 Building B Reactor H Reactor Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9448b8f1dd5c8a4e487f8847aea17e6b.jpg b3d590060b68612ff79f75d465e19241 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F73750084bb78927a601beb5277b58006.mp4 3c5558b62c1f91153fb057b87244818c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Bown Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Man one: Are you-- Man two: Ready to go. Man one: Okay. Robert Bauman: You guys ready? Man one: We're rolling. Man two: We're rolling. Bauman: We're rolling? Okay. Great. Robert Bown: I'm supposed to smile a lot. Right? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: If you want to. Bown: Oh, okay. Bauman: All right. So I'm going to the official sort of business out of the way first. My name's Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Robert Bown on June 17 of 2013. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University in Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Bown about his experiences working at the Hanford site. Okay? Bown: Yep. Bauman: Okay, great. So I'm just going to start by asking you if you could tell me how--why you first came to work at Hanford? Bown: Well, I graduated at the University of Colorado, and was looking for a job. And Norm Thompson from General Electric Company interviewed many people and we got together and I was hired. And I was--do you want to know why I was—okay, I'll--well, I was impressed with the idea that here is a new energy system. And I wanted to be part of it. So I was pretty excited about working in this industry. Bauman: And what was your degree in? Bown: Chemical engineering. But I consider myself, now, a nuclear engineer by experience. Bauman: And so what was your initial position? What was the initial job, then, that you had? Bown: Well, started out as a technical graduate, and spent some time in training. And actually I had to have a security clearance, so I was in a survey team laying out power lines, things like that, to begin with. Just to mark time. When the clearance came, well then the work started. And I went to--you want an experience? Bauman: Absolutely. Bown: As a technical graduate, I sort of made stops at several spots so that they could look at me and I could look at them. Went to separations and the reactors, and I chose the reactors and they concurred. And we lived happily for some time. Bauman: And so what year was this? What year did you start? Bown: I came here in 1948. And I left in 1971. In the meantime, I worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, the US--United States Research and--Energy Research and Development Administration, and then the Department of Energy. Bauman: Great. So how long for General Electric then? Bown: Well, until they left the project, whenever that was. I don't remember it precisely. Bauman: And so when you started at the reactors with your first job, were you at the B Reactor? Bown: I was at B Reactor. Bauman: What was your job there? What sort of things were you doing? Bown: Well, first of all, of course, it was in training on shift. Eventually I became a shift supervisor. And then an area supervisor—or operating supervisor, if you will. And then I went into—since that was shift work—went into a day job. And I was the in charge of scheduling and forecasting of the Hanford production and integration with the separations people and Federal Department or--yeah, the government until I actually went to work for the government. Bauman: So scheduling and forecasting, what--could you maybe explain that a little bit? What did that entail? Bown: Well, there were varying numbers of reactors. And I had worked at B and H, but in my day job I worked for all of them. I scheduled the outages, and took care of the accounting for the production of all the reactors, made the reports, and scheduled their outages. Because that takes a lot of people when they're shut down, so you only want one at a time. So you have to be governed partially by the need for discharging, refueling. So you get those variables, and you come up with a schedule that efficiently utilizes the force available. Bauman: And then--so after you did that, what was your next position then? Your next job? Bown: Well, I went to Washington, D.C. and worked for the Department of Energy there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Bown: And that's sort of a big blank period. I don't remember what I did. I must have worked hard, though. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] When you first came to the area then, where did you live? What sort of housing did you live in? And-- Bown: I lived in a ranch house. I was the prime--first occupant. So when the ranch houses were new, I got one. I lived in a little trailer in North Richland for a while. I lived in that house and ended up with two children and a lot of good memories. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the area like when you first arrived here? Bown: What was the which like? Bauman: What was the area like? Richland as a place to live and-- Bown: The area was a mess. The big flood of 1978 had just occurred. Smell was not too good and roads were torn up. A fresh dyke had been built and it was not fully landscaped. And it was sort of a difficult time, but we survived. Bauman: And one of the things I like to ask people about is--Hanford was a very—a lot of security, right? Sort of a secret site, to a certain extent. Wonder if you could talk about that at all? What did that mean for you in terms of your work, in terms of security? Could you drive your car to work? Did you have to-- Bown: What was that last point? Bauman: Could you drive a car to work, or did you have to take the bus? Or how did that-- Bown: Well, either one. I preferred to take the bus and let somebody else do the driving, because the areas were quite distant. But you could drive, and I would drive when necessary. And since I didn't always get my work done in the total allotted time, I'd have to get there on my own to catch up. Bauman: And were there any other—any security issues at all? Did you--I know you had to get a special clearance to work-- Bown: Had to have a what? Bauman: Get a special clearance to work on the site? Bown: Oh, yes. Q clearance. Well, in the security situation, you don't talk too much about work away from work. But Richland—you weren't very far from work, and everybody else was in the same boat, so we could talk shop some, since they were cleared, too. Bauman: Right, yeah. So you worked--what various places on the site did you work then? You worked at the B Reactor, you mentioned. Bown: B Reactor and H Reactor. I think I spent some time at F Reactor also. And then in town for when I was scheduling and forecasting. Bauman: Okay. At the Federal Building in town? Bown: The what? Bauman: At the Federal Building? Or-- Bown: 703. Bauman: Okay. Do you remember any--were there any events that really stand out to you? Any strange happenings or memorable events that took place during your years working at Hanford? Things that really stand out to you? Bown: Well, there was always something happening, and usually it was bad. And you spent a lot of time recovering from incidents, or radiation problems, or fuel element failures--for which becoming quite common when power levels were raised up to very high levels and quality of the fuel wasn't. Incidentally, I spent a year or two in fuel production, too--fuel fabrication in the 300 Area. I think between the time that I was a shift supervisor and the time I became an operating supervisor, I spent a year or two building—making fuel elements as a foreman for the crew of people working with the bare uranium. Bauman: When you worked at B Reactor and you said H Reactor also, how large of number of employees generally were there? Bown: Well, we had--the crew was generally an operating supervisor, called an area supervisor, a shift supervisor, a chief operator, four pile operators, and a couple of the next level down--whatever that was. Utility operators, I guess they were called. And then we had side groups that didn't report to me, but were helpful. Health monitoring--or HI--health, whatever it is, and the maintenance people, we would work with. So just a general plant operation. Bauman: Yeah. Okay. One quick thing I want to ask about was President Kennedy came to the Hanford site in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --and I wanted to know--ask if you were there? Were you at the event? Any memories you have about that? Bown: About when the President was there? Bauman: Yeah. Bown: Well, I wasn't personally involved with--I was just doing my job. I was impressed, of course, with the President, and the notoriety or fame that we enjoyed. Bauman: Did you and your family go out to watch him do the dedication at all? Bown: I think we did, yes. And my daughter says, okay. She was there. Bauman: Yeah. Must have been a pretty interesting—I mean it sounds--as I talk to other people they said that it was sort of one of the first times they really opened up the site to let family members come on to the site, to see the President. Bown: Well, it was just a big holiday. And I think they were impressed with the operation. And I hope they are again today. It's still there, but not operating. Bauman: Yeah. So you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, you said. Bown: Yes. Bauman: Of course much of that, the height of the Cold War. Did you have a sense of sort of the important work you were doing? I mean what did you--what of your, sort of, thinking about—the Cold War would have been-- Bown: As I mentioned earlier, I was pleased to be associated with a new energy at nearly the ground level. It had been going for a while before I got there. And I enjoyed working there. I took a part in community functions, too. Elected to City Council and my wife was elected to be one of the freeholders--20 freeholders--that wrote the--whatever it's called. Wrote the charter-- Bauman: The charter-- Bown: Charter, yes. Bauman: For—the City of Richland Charter? Bown: Yes. So we were involved, both of us--myself and my wife--in the founding of the city itself. It was a going operation before that, but under government control. Bauman: Can you talk about that a little more? When were you elected to the City Council? And what made you decide to run for a seat on the City Council? Bown: Well, I can't remember the exact date, but I was sort of encouraged to participate by an old friend, Fred Clagett, who has better credentials as an old timer. And he kind of encouraged me to work there—or to work in the community. And I served on the Planning Commission, things like that. Bauman: So you were very involved in-- Bown: I was quite active. Bauman: --city government-- Bown: City government, yes. Bauman: --in an early period. And you said your wife was involved in the-- Bown: Yes, freeholder operation. Bauman: Yeah. Why did--do you know why she chose to get involved in that? Why you thought it was important? I know you said Richland initially was a federal city under federal government control. Why you thought it was important to move to becoming a sort of independent city? Bown: Well, you like to be independent of the government control. But since they're picking up the tab, you have to listen to them and accept their advice, usually. And still remain your own person. We tried not to be a servant of the Atomic Energy Commission, whom I generally ended up working for. But we cooperated quite nicely. We worked together. I think it was a fruitful situation where we-- Bauman: So what happened then when the transfer happened from federal government control to becoming an independent city? In terms of the homes, for instance? Were people able to purchase their own homes? How did that-- Bown: Well, they sold the homes to us at a bargain rate. It was 75% of assessed valuation, I think. So we got a good deal. And we were proud to be property owners. Real citizens of a free city--atomic city--famous. Bauman: Were there any--in those early years in Richland, any community events, special celebrations, or community events that were important to the city early on? Bown: Well, nothing really stands out. We had the general celebrations. And it was just normal--a normal city. And we had a good time living it. Bauman: You know, what would you like future generations—maybe somebody will watch this video 20 years from now, or 50 years from now. What would you like people in the future, who might see your interview, or watch part of it, or listen to it--what would you like them to know about working at Hanford? Bown: About what? Bauman: About working at Hanford? And what that was like. Bown: Oh, working at Hanford. Bauman: And what it was like to work at Hanford? And/or living in Richland during that-- Bown: Yeah. Well, since it was my first job, I didn't have an awful lot of experience. Well, I'd worked construction jobs, and things like that, but it was--I was proud to work for General Electric. I didn't have an emblem tattooed on me or anything, but I was a faithful cheerleader for them. And I still like General Electric. I still like the federal government. And they were good to me, and I think I gave them a good--my best. Bauman: And how long--you mentioned that you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, how long did you live in Richland? Did you move at that point? Or-- Bown: I left Richland in 1971 for a job in Washington, D.C. with the Atomic Energy Commission. Bauman: And how long were you there? Bown: Until 1986. Through several employers--General Electric, and Douglas United Nuclear, Energy Research and Development. It seems like there's one--Was there another one in there? Two? Then the—yeah, Energy Research and Development. Well, ended up with the Department of Energy, anyway. Bauman: And when you were in D.C., what sort of work were you doing in D.C.? What was your job there? Bown: Bureaucrat. [LAUGHTER] Well, it's hard to tell you my actual responsibilities, but--because they kept varying. But I don't know. I kept busy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then I'm going to go back now to when you first came to Hanford, you said something about sort of being a mess because of the flood that year. And I know some people who came here in the '40s talked about the termination winds, you know-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --when the dust would blow and a lot of people would leave. Bown: The winds blew. They still blew. And the dust blew. But I didn't terminate. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Bown: I was from a dry Midwestern situation, so the desert wasn't too serious a problem. Bauman: It wasn't too unusual for you. Bown: No. During the Depression and drought, the wind blew and the tumbleweeds collected in the fences, and the dust drifted like snow and you could walk over the fences. So I'd had experience. It wasn't too different from the Hanford-- Bauman: Right. Bown: --situation. It wasn't—it did rain a little more, but not much. Bauman: In your various positions working at Hanford, I was going to ask you a question about unions. Were there unions on the campus? Bown: Well, there were not, to begin with. And they were organized. And I was not involved in the bargaining unit, but I had to learn to work with a union as well as the people. No problem. Bauman: Did you have a favorite part—what was your favorite part of working at the Hanford site? Do you have something that you really enjoyed doing during your time here that--of the various things you had to work on? Bown: Well, the scheduling and forecasting was pretty interesting. I started out just scheduling. And then they cut the number of reactors and I also took over the forecasting operations, and some inter-site work--the shipping off of a special products that you made at the reactors. I handled those. And it was a varied job, and quite interesting. I enjoyed it. Bauman: Clearly, yeah. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about? Anything about your experiences either working at Hanford or living in Richland? Any special memories or things you'd like to share that you haven't had a chance to talk about? Bown: Well, I got myself a ski-boat and we whizzed up and down the river quite a bit. And we spent time with our family in the Portland area, so we weren't too far from friends--from old friends and family. Climbed a few mountains. Travelled a lot--Europe, Alaska. We had a pretty full life there. Bauman: It sounds like a good place for recreational activities. Bown: Yes, and for growing a family it was real good. Bauman: And you said you had two children? Bown: Two children, daughters, are both here. Bauman: And they both grew up in Richland? Went to high school and so forth in Richland? Bown: Let's see. Where did you go to high school? Daughter: We moved when I was in 9th grade. Bown: Oh, okay. We moved east. So they ended up in Maryland for high school--most of high school. Robin went to the University of Montana, and Karen, the younger one, went to Evergreen State College. Bauman: Well, thank you very much. Again, is there anything else that you want to talk about? Or memories you have from working that I haven't asked you about? Bown: Well, you've asked all the right questions. I hope I gave the right answers. Bauman: Well, thanks again, very much. I really-- Bown: Sure. Bauman: --appreciate you coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Bown: Thank you for the opportunity. Bauman: Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:27:07 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 7999kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor H Reactor 703 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site at least 23 years Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 23 Years Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Norm Thompson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Bown Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Robert Brown started at the Hanford Site from 1948-1971. Robert worked for B Reactor and H Reactor, 300 area, 703, and was an elected member of the Richland City Council. He worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, and Energy Research and Development. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/17/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. forecasting Hanford hanford site reactor scheduling https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2045b923bd00154088960e93b3ffe999.jpg 5594f32cffd1155c8710490f27309e4a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2a1f5cb600d503379e0b3c691cdae908.mp4 9924474cd3bfd6785749acdeb0e844bf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Brinson Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:36:17 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Moulster, Louis Lyman Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 50 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Brinson Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Brinson part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-10: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. White Bluffs (Wash.) Scripto Transcription A written representation of a document. <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Northwest Public Television | Brinson_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Bauman: --2013 and the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I’ll be talking to Mr. Brinson about his family’s history at Hanford. And his family stories, experiences, memories about that community. If you could tell me sort of how and why your family came to Hanford, when that was, and what family members were part of that initial coming to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Brinson: Well, let’s see, I’ll start with my mother’s family was originally up in Ruth when she was born. In kinda north central Washington. And grandpa was working at the train station there, as a depot agent, telegrapher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Camera man: Oh, let’s stop. Yup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Oh, sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Camera man: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: All right? Okay. All right, so talking about your family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Brinson: Okay, mom's family, which was the Moulsters. My grandpa was Louis Lyman Moulster, the depot agent telegrapher at the, I think it was, the Milwaukee Railroad in Ruth, Washington, when mom was born. I'm not sure how old they were when he got just a little spooked about the immigrants who were coming in to that area and decided they'd move. So they moved on to Hanford. And he took over the depot down there and raised his family. And there was Mom and Aunt Louise. Twin sisters Margaret and Mildred and younger sister June, which they called Babe. The oldest one was Uncle Lyman. And the baby of the family was Uncle Arthur. When he came along, Grandpa was busy with a train about to come in so he couldn't take Grandma to the hospital. So Uncle Lyman had to drive the car, and this is a 12-year-old kid driving an old Model T to the hospital. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Where was the closest hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: In Pasco. Lady of Lourdes in--I think it was still in Pasco, early in that time. But when the word got back the baby had been born, he kind of slapped his knee and said, that's the caboose. [LAUGHTER] No more kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So what year did that family come to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, I'm not certain. It's probably in the late 1910 to 1915, somewhere in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. And the name is Moulster, M-O-U-L-S-T-E-R? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Right, yeah. They came out of Wisconsin, originally. And Dad's family came out of Arkansas. He was only two years old when the family moved out here. All of them is, let’s see, brother Paul and sister Irene--or not—sister Bernice. Brother Herbert and Albert were all born, no, not Herbert, except for Herbert, they were born back in Fayetteville. They moved out to Seattle from there, and that was where Uncle Herb was born. But they didn't stay there long. They moved to—oh, I’ve forgot, you've got it in your notes there in that one I sent you--to one of the towns in eastern Washington, before they moved to Hanford, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: And they got what, 1918, I think they settled in Hanford. And not in Hanford, the foothills of the Rattlesnakes out there, where the Benson Ranch was up where Fitzdriver Hart is now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: So they ran the ranch up there. Had the sheep and everything. And the boys would raise the sheeps that were what that the mothers wouldn't raise. So they had a good--they said it was a great place to grow up. The Moulsters and the Brinsons were all friends from almost the get-go. Even living 18 miles away from each other they would visit back and forth all the time. And so, that's eventually Mom and Dad ended up at--It happened that when they finished with the apple crop down here, the kids would go up to the Wenatchee area, where further north where the crops were still coming off, so they could get some more work in. Earn some more money. And so they were-- just happened to be up there in a little town close to Wenatchee--and they were picking apples in a tree, and Dad got it in his head and asked Mom he thought they'd known each other long enough that maybe they should think about getting married. So she agreed, up there at the top of the apple tree ladder. So that's where all that started. And then I was born in 1937. The same trip to the hospital in an old Model T. Dad grumbling all the way, why'd anybody want to live out in the middle of nowhere like this. So I only got to experience Hanford for probably four years. But I did hear tales about how I would like to run off, because nobody locked doors in those days. And so if Mom turned her back too long, I'd dash out the door and go down the street to see Aunt Bernice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: She would tell that story on and on and over and over as she entered in her elderly years when she got a little bit, I think it was Alzheimer's, probably is what it was, you know how they repeat themselves. So I heard that story a lot when I'd go to visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So the house you lived in, was it in town? Or did you have a farm? Or what sort of place was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, it was right in town there because Dad had the little beer parlor, ice cream parlor combination. There was a room in the back where the men played cards. And they had--kids'd scrounge ice cream cones and men'd drop in for a beer. And even the Indians'd come by and try to get alcohol, which you couldn't legally sell it to them. So he had to keep a little short barrel .22 short pistol under the counter to dissuade the more belligerent of the tribe when they tried to buy alcohol of off him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Does it have a name, the pool hall or beer hall ice cream parlor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I never did hear if it was just a Hanford pool hall or whatever. Otherwise it was just--there were probably just orchards all around town and up and down the river, is all it was, was fruit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So the Brinson family had the place 18 miles out. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: That, well, they worked for the. Benson, E. F. Benson I think was his initials. He was the owner of the ranch. And he built a house for the family out there. Had running water from a spring. And the kids got to drive in to--I think it said in the letter Uncle Herb wrote--that it was the county bought him a Model T to drive in to the school at Cold Springs. And then somebody found out they were actually were in the Hanford School District so they had to, even though Cold Springs was closer, they had to drive 18 miles to Hanford to go to school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: So that must've been quite an experience. You can imagine teenage boys doing stuff like that. Would've been kind of fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Had you heard any other stories about the school itself? About your dad or your aunts and uncles? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No. There was something that nobody ever really made clear, that he did have to spend a year at a high school up north in--can't remember the name of that little town. Now, I ever got a letter on my sweater with a big P on it. Pateros. Yeah, Pateros High School. So he must have got into some kind of trouble and had to go away to a different high school for a year. Because I think it was like 1930, 1931, when they graduated. It was 1935, I think, when they got married, so. So there was some time, he spent time in the President Roosevelt's CCCs, building campgrounds and trails in the mountains around the state. And he actually went and spent some time down in Oregon on the Salmon River, I think, panning for gold one spring. He had a few adventures away from Hanford before he came back and committed himself to a long, long marriage with Mom. Yeah, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Well, talking about FDR and the CCC, any of your family members ever talk to you about the Depression? What it was like growing up or living in Hanford during the Depression? Did it have an impact on the community in any way? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: You know, they always talk like it was the most wonderful place in the world. They didn't have any financial problems because they took care of everything themselves. They had their own herds and their own fruit and vegetables. Didn't depend on when the government came along with the social programs. They went off and made a dollar a day and sent whatever portion was required for them to send home. A certain percentage they had to send home. It was never, never heard of a word, like there was any kind of hardship at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Now the Moulster family, did they have a place in town, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, the railroad supplied a house for Grandpa and Grandma. So he would go down and greet the trains when they came in. And of course all the family had free passes so the kids could, during summer vacation, they could hop on a train, ride anywhere they wanted to go, for nothing. So they'd go over to Seattle and visit relatives. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: That's nice. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, they had a good time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Sounds nice. How long was your grandfather work for the railroad in Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Until the government came in. And they moved from there to Prosser and they retired. And they lived in Prosser for the rest of his life. I think he died, oh, somewhere like 1957 or 8, somewhere like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how busy of a train stat--like how often trains came through? Once a day? A couple times a day? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I never heard, no. You would expect maybe at least once a day to have to keep a guy there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm, you’d think so, right. I was wondering about, you talked about the beer parlor/pool hall and ice cream parlor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: I wonder if any of your family members ever talked about recreational activities, picnics, or Fourth of July celebrations, or things that kids did for fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Just when they'd visit families back and forth. They'd go out to the Benson ranch on Sundays, usually after church, and they'd have a big supper. And, like I said in the write up, they would make a big tub of ice cream. You know it probably was salt and ice and stirred all up. And when they'd come the other way down to Hanford and they probably went to the river in a summer day, cause that's where the whole town gathered, right there in the swimming hole. Only place to keep cool. And you can imagine those blistering summer days like we get around here. Without, back before they had a lot of the agriculture we have now. Wasn't nearly as cool, probably. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Right. Yeah. Then there's winter, also, which is a completely different. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah there's pictures. I've seen pictures at the reunions of the frozen Columbia with a herd of sheep going across. And just amazing. The ice skating, of course, on the same place they'd swim in they'd be ice skating on it in the wintertime. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Now, when your family was at the Benson ranch, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Dad's family, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So it was sheep. Did they also grow crops at all? Apples, peaches, anything along that—orchards? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, it was always strictly for wintering the sheep, I think, mostly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: In the springtime they'd drive them out onto the sagebrush flats out in the range. Well, even today if you drive--we just got back from a cross-country trip to Kentucky, and out through Wyoming and Utah there, you see sheep all over the place. You see the little carts out there the sheep herder lives in. It's just like it was back then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: You talked about the Brinson and Moulster families being close, were there other families, do you know, that you got close to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, there were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: --Or knew really well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: When they had the get-togethers, the reunions were just the happiest times, when they'd all get together and they'd hash out the old memories from. And they'd talk about the people around the mercantile downtown. And the different neighbors, all of them. It was too young for me to remember most of the names. I remember a few names. I think the store was run by the Boyd family. And of course there were the Clarks. Ilian Clark was one of the latest, or she went to our church, actually. I mean she would, she's the one that'd always try to organize the sing-alongs at the reunions. She would play the piano and try to get everybody the sing all the old songs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. What about churches in the community? Were there a number-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I think there was only a Presbyterian church there. I think that's what everybody went to, if they were so inclined, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And did your family get to some of the neighboring communities very often? To White Bluffs or Richland? I know the hopsital’s in Pasco, but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Not that they've mentioned very often. They've had quite a rivalry going with White Bluffs that even carried on into the reunions. The Hanford folks and the White Bluff folks still had a few issues, even going into those later days. Probably sports teams and such like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Probably schools and sports teams. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So let’s talk a little bit now about World War II and when the federal government decided that they were going to build a site out where the community of Hanford was. What do you know about that? Or what have you heard from your family members? I know you were only four years old or something at the time. What sort of stories have you heard about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: There was a lot of bitterness. And even to this day, some of them, like that one fellow you mentioned that you'd interviewed before, I'm sure you must have heard from him how hard it was on some of the folks to walk, practically walk away from a orchard just ready to probably pick and produce a crop and make a profit for you for the first time. And you have to walk away from it. You can imagine what kind of bitterness that might produce. See, we had already left by probably 1942. And Dad decided a growing family needed a better income, so he got on at the shipyards over there in Tacoma and then Grandpa followed. We lived together for a while over there. And did a little work. Didn't come back ‘til 1948. But you heard the stories at every reunion from just about the same people. They repeat the same stuff. [LAUGHTER] Grandpa Brinson got his--after all the work he did on his place, planting the peach orchard and everything--he got 700 whole dollars out of the government for it. And I'm sure it was similar for a lot of the other folks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: $700 is what—is all he got? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: That's all he got for his house, outbuildings, and orchard, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So you were in Tacoma, your family was in Tacoma though at that point. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Right, before they-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Did you hear about it at that point? Do you know did your family hear about it from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, I'm sure there were--I'm not sure how they communicated. Mostly by letters, probably. I don't think that there was--well, yeah, there must have been long distance at that time. But, yeah, I don't recall, of course, being at that age, a lot of telephone traffic at all. But I'm sure they heard from the folks. Because after it happened we'd take a lot of trips back over the mountains to visit Grandma and Grandpa there in Prosser. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: They had moved to Prosser then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, a lot of folks moved to Prosser. A lot of them moved to Yakima and surrounding towns out through there. It scattered them pretty good, so it was always nice to see them come back. The reunions were really crowded in the early days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Do you know about when those reunions started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, it had to have been in the late '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So pretty soon after the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Probably in the, yeah, '47 to '49, somewhere in there probably. You know the kids--all the kids noticed was free ice cream, free pop. [LAUGHTER] And a lot of grass and trees to play under, play around under. So my sister was the one that—she would love to sit under the picnic table and listen to all the adult talk going on. But us kids, us boys, we'd just run around and play. We didn't care about that kind of stuff. So she heard all the stories, but you couldn't talk her into coming in for an interview, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So when did you--since you were only four years old or so when your family left Hanford-- when did you first become aware of the family story here and what had happened to the communities here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, well, when they would take us to the reunions, they'd hear the stories and, of course, even family get-togethers you'd hear it then, too. ‘Cause we'd always have a get-together in a Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving. There'd always be a family get-together, so you'd hear all the stories around the dinner tables. All the fellowship around that time, most times of the year. And there'd be a lot of good-humored joking, but there's always that underlying disappointment. It would've been nice to have carried on and grown up and realized the full potential of a community like that. Along the river would've been a beautiful place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. So I was going to ask you--one of the reasons we're doing this project is to get memories and stories about families that were there, so that someone in the future, a student maybe, or maybe a descendant of yours could listen and watch the video. What sorts of things or anything that you would especially like people like that to know about, or know about the community of Hanford, or about your family that you think it would be important to let them to know about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, probably the most important thing would be I think the freedom you felt like you had in those days, even at four years old and you don't really don't realize the importance of it. You had it, when you could just run out of the house and go visit some aunt up the street and not worry about being lost or being abducted by some nutball. And the people were independent and helped each other. And it was just, compared to how things are today, wow. Yeah, don't get me started on the politics going on today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So in other words, it was a community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. There was even-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: People who really felt like a community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. You could tell when you see them at the reunions how close they were. Just a whole lot of hugging going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Well, just the fact that they had those reunions and kept doing those for so many years suggests-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. Yeah the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: --strong bond, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, the people that organized those had to really be committed because that took a lot of work, sending out all the letters and getting together all the food, all the materials it took. And then they would put out tables and tables of old photographs and paper, newspaper clippings, and stuff like that. I hope you were able to get ahold of some of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: I did, yeah, see some of that, yeah. Have you or any of your family members ever gone back, say on one of the tours that goes out? Been able to go see the former sites out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: A few times we went out to. One time when they let you take your cars out, they kind of travel out there following the DOE guy. They let you park and walk around, trying to find your old home site. My mom always knew by the shape of some tree about where their house was. And her cousin Dick went with us one time, and he got to poking around out there and he actually found a little fish pond that his father had built for him. It was all covered over by sagebrush and stuff. But he managed to find it and brush off the stuff. But it was just made out of stones that were just kind of cemented in. It was probably no bigger than that, but it was only so deep, but it was. It meant a lot to him to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Oh sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: --to be able to find that and remember that part of his life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Wow. Do you know when that might have been, that he would have went back out there and found that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, that was probably in the late '60s, early '70s, in that area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And you mentioned that your mom was able to by the shape of a tree know where. What sort of response did she have to going back out there? Did you get a chance to talk to her about that? Or were you out there with her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. Oh yeah, she liked it. Her thing, like I said, was down at the old swimming hole. She kind of graded everything by where the swimming hole was, where that meant that. And then she could figure out where that tree was. And then that house stood right there by the tree. Some of the houses, they moved out of there to other parts of the countryside that weren't on the project. Some of them might still be in use today for all I know. But, oh yeah, she'd get excited every time we'd go out there and remember--remembering things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So she seemed to really appreciate being able to go out there again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh yeah. Invariably it'd be a real hot day and it'd be uncomfortable out there. You'd usually gather around the old high school there. The shell was still standing. Must have been quite--I guess, the bank building. Maybe that was in White Bluffs, so it was still standing too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: White Bluffs Bank, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. But you must've had if she could remember that well just by a few things that were she had a real--she knew that town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. She grew up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Knew it well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, that was when she used to tell us about sleeping out on the hay stacks at those hot summer evenings, and listening to the coyotes howl. Falling asleep to that noise. What she called music. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Remember any other stories she used to tell you about things like that, that would've been sort of unique to the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, not really. She did leave to go to Seattle to go to secretarial school. Or business school, she called it. Business school. So she went to a couple years of that. And then probably right after that they probably got married. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: With the proposal in the apple orchard-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, and then moved to Tacoma over in probably '42. I think so. But they did have a lot of close friends that they could talk for hours about the old times, the good times. Especially if the sisters got together. Boy, they could--Man, it was—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: It sounds like she had a lot of very fond memories of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: They were, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And did your dad talk about much, talk about the old community much? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. They had the men's fraternity, I guess you'd call them, were pretty close. They had a lot of—especially the high school kids--they were the hardest things ever. So and Dad was, when one of his friends was killed at Guadalcanal, it took him a long time to get over that, because it was his best friend. So, yeah, they were really close. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And so you said your family then moved to Tacoma and then '48 came to Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Came back to, yeah, it's cause Dad got a job at the--actually, we stopped for a year in Prosser, lived with grandparents until we got, finally bought a piece of property in East Kennewick. And then he had a house built. And we lived with Herb and his family on East Fifth Street while the house was being built on East First Place. So eventually got moved in there and spent--that's where us kids grew up right there, at East Kennewick, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And what did you think of Kennewick when you came back, when you moved in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, just immediately there was guys to run around with and we just formed a bond right there. We were the four musketeers. We would—[LAUGHTER] There were no gangs back then, I guess we were about as close as you could get to a gang, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. I guess I asked, what it would feel like being in the Tri-Cities knowing that a lot of the people in the area were working, out at the Hanford site, which is where your family used to live? Have any feelings about that? Does it seem a little odd at all or strange or? What are your thoughts about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, we didn't really think about it that much. Most of the activity was closer to Richland, in the Camp Hanford area. And right out there where the town site was there was never any--It just happened to be in the middle of the condemned area. Yeah, I don't think we ever resented. We were too young to work up resentments at that point. We were having too much fun growing up in East Kennewick. Because back then East Kennewick went clear out to Finley, you could roam forever out through there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So are there anything that I haven't asked you that, or any event, or memory or family story that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, it's one of those things that you might wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning and say, Oh, yeah I should've said that. [LAUGHTER] But right now I just can't draw on anything, anything else. It was just with all the aunts and uncles and the friends, it was just a wonderful time of life, a wonderful place to have been a part of, for a little while, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So I do have one other question. So I know your father and grandfather and your family went to Tacoma. What happened to, say, cousins and aunts and uncles, cousins, other families you're related to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well they, yeah, mom's oldest brother ended up in California as a bulldozer operator. The twins, one twin, Aunt Mildred, never did give married, and Aunt Margaret married a wheat farmer out of Walla Walla. Let's see, Aunt Babe married Uncle Doc Jones from Tacoma. They lived in Tacoma, lived out their years in Tacoma. And, see, Uncle Arthur worked on the fire department in the Seattle fire department. Let's see, on Dad's side, Herb ended up running a Chevron station right down at the end of Washington Street there in Kennewick, and later on moved to Spokane and ran one up there in Dishman. And Uncle Paul moved to San Bernardino and passed away down there, after raising a family. Let's see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So did all the Brinsons then go to Tacoma, pretty much? Your uncles as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Generally, in that area, yeah. Uncle Albert ended up in Renton and raised his family. His son Gary is the—Gary Brinson of the Brinson Fund, you know. Multimillion. [LAUGHTER] He had to build a building there on the WSU campus for the business college, I guess you'd call it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: But he was younger than you, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. Just a few years, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So did he live out at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No. They all grew up in Renton. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And then what about the Moulster side? Were they still living in Hanford when the government came in during the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because that's when Grandpa had to drop the depot agent job. Retire from the Milwaukee Railroad and move to Prosser, so. And I don't know who was, if Aunt Margaret hadn't married Uncle Bud at that time, so. They were in the, yeah, she and Aunt Millie both joined the Navy, that's right. They were both in the Navy ‘til the end of the war, so. So that's where they went. And so Uncle Arthur was also and flew in the--whatever aircraft that was. He was a navigator bombardier off of a carrier airplane of some sort. P-40 or something like that. Forces that have survived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Now, did you or any of your family end up working at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Dad worked at the fire department in Richland for the rest of his career there. Central fire station. When I got out of the Air Force, I spent a couple years at CBC and got into the physical chemistry laboratory out there, in 300 Area. Worked out there for 40, 42 years. Retired in 2000. Paid for my- [LAUGHTER] Put a couple of kids through school from working out there. Yeah, it was a good place to spend a career. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Is there any final thoughts about the old Hanford town or of your family--families, even the Moulster or Brinson family, and their experiences there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, the biggest thing was just missing them all so much. Just because it was such a wonderful family to grow up in. So supportive and loving, and just getting together at a drop of a hat. So many get-togethers and camping trips. Yeah, I wish I could have grown up older there and had more memories of the old Hanford town, but. But that's the way things go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Well, I appreciate you being willing to come talk and share your memories and your family stories about Hanford and the community out there. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, I wish I could've helped you out more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: This is terrific. You were great. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Okay, you're welcome. I'm glad you got a chance to talk to Mom there, that 12 years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: She made it to 97. </div> 300 Area Civilian Conservation Corps Hanford (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6def293024de6ae911e0e7f7654db62f.jpg 9ec40ce58e39904d570570fa414e867c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56b6ceb732b954b73e93a462ffedb9c0.mp4 e1ae7cc2fa0eb43e1b50797353e49a45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Colley Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Northwest Public Television | Colley_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Robert Bauman: Okay, great. Let's start by just having you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Robert Colley: Okay. Robert Gibson Colley. It's—spell-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: The last name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: C-O-L-L-E-Y. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. Great. Thank you. And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Bauman? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, okay, Bob Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And today's date is November 20th, 2013, and we're recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start maybe by having you tell us when you came to Hanford, what brought you here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. I was at Spokane Air Base, and the general came in and he said we're going to have to reduce the Korean Air Force pilots, but we'd like to keep you in Reserve, Ready Reserve, and you'll fly every other weekend for the next 20 years. And we'll guarantee you a job somewhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And so that was on Sunday, and on Monday morning I came to work here in 1954. And it was about a month before I came to work. And I came to work as—nuclear physics—radiation monitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. And so how long had you been in the service prior to 1954? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I came off active duty on Sunday, and came to work here Monday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: When did you start in the service? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, in—when did I start? In 1942. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay, yeah, oh, in '42, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah, in 1942. And I had three years of cadet ROTC at Walla Walla. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Oh, okay. All right. And so then you came to Hanford in 1954 in nuclear health physics, you said? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Nuclear health physics? Is that where you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I worked for General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: For General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Uh-huh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so could you—what sort of work did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Nuclear health physics. And after I came here, I went and got my tech degree from inside while I worked there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And what was the area like when you came here in 1954? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well it was riding buses to school, and they gave us homes. And we brought our families here. And went to work by bus. Buses picked us up right in front of our house here in Hanford and took us to work and brought us back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And where was your house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: 1940 Benham. 1940, 41 there. It was a duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: A duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: An eight-house duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And my children started school here that year. A boy and a girl. And they started at Lewis and Clark School just up the street. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so working in nuclear health physics, what sorts of tasks did you do? What sort of things did you do at your job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Anyplace that anybody worked, we had to be there. And we had to know that the area was clear, the work area was clear, what dose rate they were getting, and set a dose rate for them to work there for a certain length of time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So you were all over the site, then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. I was—in those days, everybody worked all over the site, wherever you were needed. But I actually went into U Plant my first day out on the project, and that was the beginning of U Plant, T Plant, REDOX. And then I went to Dash 5, and then I went to the PUREX start-up again. I was there for two years. Then went back to Dash 5. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. So essentially you were setting rates for workers? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yes. Uh-huh. We went in and we checked the air. And checked the clothing requirement that these people would wear, and what their mask levels would be. How much--we'd find out exactly how much they were going to take and how much they were allowed to take for any one day. And generally in those days, unless there was something very special where you took a double, why, you normally took 15. And that was it. If it was a very special job where it was dangerous to pull somebody out in the middle of a job because of the radiation level. Sometimes they would take a double. Then they'd go into overtime. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to wear any special clothing or carry special-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everything was special. From the time we walked in and changed clothes, we never our clothing again until we took our shower and went home. We wore special underclothes, special--if we lost our clothes due to some spill or something, we could strip down to our underclothes and get out and still be clear. If we went past that, why, then we had a body contamination. And we would normally clean up whoever got contaminated. And depending whether they were working with uranium, plutonium, americium or whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Did it happen very often where--were there very many times when a worker was contaminated and you had to clean them up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everyday somewhere. And they had to be cleaned up and nasal smears given before they were left to go home. We had to have them perfectly clean, or we had to keep them and give them more tests. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So how would you go about cleaning someone up who had been contaminated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well, if it was skin contamination, why, we could take off a layer of skin. We'd put on--I forget what the name of it was, but we’d put it on and it would take a layer of it off. Until it's a layer perfectly clean. And if they were clean, then they could go home. If they weren't, why, we had to keep them over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And if they had to--if you had to keep them over, what happened? You would run tests, did you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No, we'd just have to keep cleaning on them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I mean, working with this type of thing, there's some spill, something or other, something contaminated or something broke loose or something didn't go right. And everything had to be cleaned right down to no contamination detectable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And so when someone was contaminated and you were involved in cleaning them up, was it just you? Or was there more than one person? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, no, no. Depending on whether he was a junior or a senior, and after he got to be senior, why you were always the one to clean somebody up. And the juniors would watch. And so they would be prepared sometime, too, in the future. You went through a six-month training period and preparation so that you become a monitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And how long did you work then in nuclear health physics? How long were you at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: 34 years. Approximately 34 years—just like a little bit--. I went there in--I didn't work there until in January of '55. And I retired in August of '86. I think I figured out about 34, almost 34 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And that whole time you were in health physics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yep. The only time I was gone was when I was on active duty with the Air Force, once a year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Never lost any time. We had a lot of different things happen, but every 15 months, when we had accidents of some sort, spills or contamination levels above level, something like that was always there. Even with fires and explosions and stuff like that. And we--I guess the worst right off the bat was when we had—I can’t think—a place where they mixed in Dash 5. But they had a spill, and had a double. And so they got everybody out in about 10 or 15 minutes. I mean, just real quick. Just walked away. Just left things like they were. And then three of us went back in. We knew each floor exactly. We knew where every crevice was, or where every box or anything was where something might be that might be of value. Most of them might walk away from it and not know it's there. So we had to go back and go through--because we knew all these buildings. We did work down there day after day for years. And we knew where everything was, even if it was just even a change of clothes. We checked everything. And we finally--we were allowed an hour. We were in 1,000 R dose rate. And we were allowed an hour. And we took 100 R. And we were only supposed to take a little bit each day. But it was classified at that time. And no one ever knew how much--except we knew, and the health physics people knew. And we took, in less than an hour, we took 100 R—body. And that's many years of working out there. You normally took three R a year—a whole year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And we took 100 R in less than an hour. But no one was left in the building, and we were very fortunate. Everything that would run was still running. And then they would come in to help shut it down and get things cleaned up again. But they brought us down in patrol cars from the Badge House, and we just had so much time once we got out of the patrol car. And we would be back there at that place. And if we weren't there, they would come to look for us. But there was three of us, and the other two boys are all gone. I was the oldest out of the bunch, but they died young. We never knew for sure whether we would--I never felt anything from 100 R. I didn't feel headache-y or sick or anything. And they allowed me to come back to work the next day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But that was all classified at that time. And nobody--they got it okayed from someplace. But I never had any ill effects from it. I took my maximums every year in all those years, and never had any ill effects that I knew of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Do you know roughly what time period this incident was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Roughly what year that would have been that that happened, that incident? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: You know, I used to remember exactly right down to the hour. [COUGH] But that seemed like it was '56? '55, '56? Gosh, they've got all the records there, but I--it was fairly soon--no, it wasn’t ‘58. It had to be '60. Because I'd been here a long time then. Got everything back up and going again. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And you said you didn't experience any ill-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: You said you did not experience any ill effects. Did the other two men who were there with you, did they experience any ill effects from that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I don't hear very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I'm sorry. You said you didn't feel sick after that at all. Did the other two men who were in with you, did they get sick at all from that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No, not to my knowledge. Never had any ill effects. I've always had pretty good luck. I went through the Air Force Cadets, Army Air Force Cadets, back at the [INAUDIBLE], and pretty good shape and stayed in good shape. And we would fly 50, 60 hours at a time towards the end there. And no ill effects from that, either. Except you get tired and you switch off with crews, you know. And we'd go from here to California or over to China or someplace. Always someplace on the earth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Yeah. Were there any other sort of major incidents that you remember from the time-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well we had A 80--about 10 years later, and I was right in the middle, turning people out. The people that were injured during the blast were taken to Kadlec in special rooms. And they were kept there for all--this was when--I'm thinking to think of his name. I can see him, but I can't--he was the one that got hurt the worst. And he was down here, down at Kadlec, for years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Oh, was that McCluskey? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: McCartney, yeah, McCartney. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. He was just quite a guy. And he was an operator out there. And got him out, and we got him downtown and took the—[LAUGHTER] I can't think of all these names. The thing that we took him downtown in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Ambulance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Ambulance. And took it back, checked out it. It was wildly contaminated. And went and buried it. [LAUGHTER] That was what happened to it! But I worked 91 doubles to get that straightened out. We didn't have enough people to keep the place going, and so we'd ask for overtime. And I put in the most doubles that anybody has ever heard of. 91 doubles, straight days. 91 doubles. 16 hours a day. But I'd been used to that in the military, or more. But not that many days at a time. And we finally got back to normal hours. And but this wasn’t ever—but they stopped going more than two and a half days at a time overtime after they got it straight, before they could get back to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So during those 91 doubles, was it still working on cleaning up after the incident-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah, mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: With-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. And they got the point for—they didn't ask for it, they just accepted I'll be there and I was. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: You mentioned that the ambulance, you'd buried the ambulance. Do you knew where it was buried? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Out there in Two West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: In Two West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. But I believe those were about ten years apart. The Dash 5 and the--or the--gosh, I can't remember that name, but the poor fellow that blew up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: McCluskey. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: No? Oh, the first one. I don't know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: The first one. I can’t—it gets away from you when you get up in your 90s. If you don't use them, why, you forget them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Any other incidents that stand out in your-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well we had lots of little ones, but they, we could take care of them. They were generally out there. Once in a while, we'd bring somebody down for a cleanup down to the hospital here. But somebody was with him at all times. And never a chance of spreading anything. Of course then homes were surveyed here every so often by the monitoring people, just to check. Just to spot check here and there. Rounds for people that lived here. And once in a while, you'd get something, maybe a bathroom or something room, somebody had come from the project home, well then that started a whole different series of things. Your buses had to be re-checked. Everything had to be re-checked. Never left anything for chance, because it doesn't go away. But once in a while, you'd find a little bit in home. But nothing really drastic, and nobody was ever fired for bringing home the—just something that was overlooked at the time. They bypassed a monitor some way or another. They got--or they touched something and then went into a clean area, and they thought they were still clean and they went home with it. But no, there was always right orders. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So you said you worked there for almost 34 years. Did the equipment change over time, the equipment that you used? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Our detection equipment didn't change. We had the Geiger counters and we had alpha—I'm trying to think of the sampling equipment that we used and the detection equipment, and the air sample stuff, and that. And no, in that length of time, nothing had changed yet. But they changed fairly soon after that, I understand. And got a little more sensitive equipment. And people had more schooling after--things that were brought—when you can find instruments going that can detect this much easier. That's what they brought in later. Real handy. Real nice. But other than that, why, Geiger counters and Junos, and that was the things that they had when they started, and that's the things that we had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And how about when you had to clean someone up, did that sort of process stay pretty much the same? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. First you use the normal equipment. If anything higher level, a Juno or alpha, so we'd detect it. And then if it was larger than that, why, they were left out there and cleaned up out there. It wasn't until we got down to the very minor things that we couldn't--it was on skin or in skin, on clothing. But we had just—in real clean rooms. So if there was any on them, we could get it real quick. And I don't recall anyone knowingly took any in home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everybody was pretty respectful of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to wear a certain kind of gloves? Do you have to wear a mask or something? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. Depending on whether it was fresh air or whether it was a salt mask, depending on what kind of work we were on, they were sealed when we were working in the canyons, in the cells, were sealed down tight. And then we had somebody check us as we came out. And so we never carried anything out. We took some time to--sometimes it took longer to get out than it did to do the job. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So obviously there are a lot of precautions that were taken, a lot of safety measures. Did you feel then—obviously you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I don't remember anybody knowingly took any shortcuts-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: --In order to get a job done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everything was always in a hurry. Everything was on a schedule. Well, sometimes when you're working with contamination and radiation, it just don't work on schedule. And we'd have to hold. They had people on overtime one way or another, but we couldn't let them go. We'd have to call the job off, till they cleaned it up. And when they got them cleaned back where they could handle it, then turn 'em loose. But we were always with them. I mean, by turn 'em loose, you mean they could go to work, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Whether it was mechanical or something else, or flow of contaminated material. They had a lot of high-level stuff there. Some of that stuff could--if you get it on you, if you didn't get it off real fast, you could get hurt. There were several times that thought the people were going to get hurt, but it turned out that they came out okay. But they did have it on them, but if they hadn’t have gotten it off of them, why, they would've been in trouble. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But it seemed like—if you worked there, stay clean. Stay clean. And never took any shortcuts. A shortcut could cost you your life. I don't remember anybody ever dying from it or anything like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Given the sort of materials that were there and the job you had, did you feel that Hanford was a safe place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: How's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Did you feel that Hanford was a safe place to work? Was there-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, sure was. And everybody was built around doing the job, getting the job done. But I don't recall any job that was carried on unsafely. It was caught--right in the middle of some pretty--something semi-nuclear, or whatever, we stopped and took care of it there, and then started back again. But that was the way of life. That was the way you did it. And no one ever considered taking shortcuts. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. What was the most challenging part of your work at Hanford, and maybe what was the most rewarding part? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Safety. Keeping people safe and taking care of their internal, external safety. And the contamination, always watching for contamination internally or externally. When you went home at night, you felt okay. But some people took a tremendous amount of radiation. But it was radiation, it wasn't contamination. So you didn't worry about going home or exposing your family to anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So as you look back over the over 30 years that you worked at Hanford, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Good. Yeah. Everything was taken care of. They got you to work. They made it so that you didn't worry about coming to work. And that was good, because a lot of people were, you know, had some pretty high--there were some lethal dose rates out there if you had to get around them, and you took very, very small amounts of it. And so you didn't really worry about--I mean the only time was when we had some criticality and some of us would volunteer. But we would volunteer because we were older. We weren't having families. We--well, I don't know. We would take the necessary precautions. We'd back off if something didn't seem right and look at it again from another angle. So if someone took an overdose, it'd be because of too many days of overtime. And they finally got that down to where if you had taken so much dose rate for a number of hours, why, you couldn't take anymore. And it was always within the safe limits. I don't remember anybody getting an overdose of radiation. Except for us that had to in order to find out if our buildings were clear. And there was nobody left in them. To search the buildings, we had to take an over amount. And it was supposed—like in our big building, Dash 5, there were only three of us volunteered. But there's three floors, and we knew before we went in about how much time it would take to go to every room on every floor. So that we wouldn't leave--if anybody fainted, had a heart attack or something like that in getting out would still be there, because nobody's back in that building for two or three days. You were just clicking and clacking away. [LAUGHTER] You just--kind of different sounds, you know, make you feel a little anxious because all the alarms were going, and which alarms are the ones that you're watching for that might be external. And dose rates or contamination or type of things like that. Most of the contamination bells were all around [INAUDIBLE] were going off. And we had to find where that spread was, how bad was it, and what it was going to take to clean it up. And it took quite a while. But they'd give people their maximums and send them home. That's where you got all cleaned up and back to work again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to have--you talked about safety. Did you have like regular safety training, did they have that at Hanford? Did you have to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yes. Yeah. Everything was safety. And you had special meetings. If you were going to do a special job, say down in one of the cells or something like that, you had training on it, a dry run training in another cell that was clean. So you knew exactly what you were going to handle, how long you were going to handle it, how many people it was going to take to handle that, and which sets of dose rates. They would only take maybe an overtime of—of one overtime--not overtime, but taking a double in exposure. And then if it took 10 people to do that, you just lined up 10 people and dressed them and got them ready, and you got the others out. And so nobody took any extra over what they were supposed to take. And then their badges were red. And they knew right then that's where they were going to--whether they were okay or not, if they were concerned about it. And once in a while, you'd open up something that, in trying to get that job done, you'd open up something else. And then, of course, we were right there, and our instruments were—and we're dressed, too, so our instruments would tell us right there we were taking it from that, right here. And then we could do—tell them they could work two inches, five inches, a foot, two foot, or arm’s length, and then what the dose rate would be. So tried to keep everybody as healthy, as good we could. And it went off pretty good. Everybody felt comfortable with it, anyway. Maybe sometimes--everybody's human. Sometimes they make little boo-boos. But if you caught them, you never let them back in again. You know, some people will just for some reason or another, they just want to get into trouble. And when you find out that person, you get him out then. You never let him go back in. He's a hazard. So he'd be put on a cold job somewhere here on the project, or he's fired. But never played around with him. I don't remember people by name as to any particular one, but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I want to go back. You mentioned earlier that when you first came here and moved into a house, you took a bus to work and it would pick you up in front of your house. How long did you do that? How long did you take the bus to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: You know, you think you—that was a big thing for people to drive. And some people didn't even have cars. They'd pick you up. And you got a bus stop real close to your house. They go all through Richland here. And they'd pick you up, they'd bring you back and drop you off back at your house. But it was--gosh, I never did drive to work. I always took a bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Took the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But during that--towards the end of that, some people were driving. And depending on where they worked and what job they did and if they had to move around with it. And they could drive to the Project parking lot. And then they had to go over to--well, just like the rest of us worked. No, it was so gradual, that never—and those dates were all so familiar at the time, boy! We were going to be able to drive, and they were going to go take the buses clear off. And that would have been a big day. And I'm trying to think. Just, I can't remember. But they sold the houses in '58. So I know it was--we'll say it was before then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so did you buy a house then after '58? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Uh-huh. Yeah. I was allowed one house, an A house. And I'd already been in it for 10, 15 years. I lived in that house 40 years. Or either had it for 40 years. I bought it, and then I kept it a long time. We paid $7,200 for an A house. All told, before I sold it, I built a new house out in Keene Village. And we got $109,000 for it. But needed fixing up a little bit here and there, you know. But really a good house. Very easy to heat and easy to--they were comfortable, nice rooms. And they're all--most all of them are still standing! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And do you remember anything else about the community of Richland at the time in the 1950s? Were there any special community events or things like that that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well my spare time was with military. So I didn't have much spare time. Towards the end, I flew to China for 12 years. Every other week, never missed a week. And worked here full-time. But I was flying the old C-141s. That was quite a drop from B-52s and 36s. [LAUGHTER] But it was a mix, good mix. But everything, regardless of where you went, if you--like in Japan, had family there. I had to have somebody go with me because of my job here and my Air Force job. Classification all the time. Never talked about it. They knew that you worked here, and that was good enough. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, it was a lot of classification. Some jobs were, gee, you were afraid to talk to anybody. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So could you tell your family what you did at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: They didn't really know what sort of job you had? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: As far as my family was concerned, my children were going through grade school here. And my wife didn't work. She just took care of us all. What they read in the papers or from things like that. And they know better than to ask. Because it was classified. But they'd got used to that in the Air Force. SAC was, boy, it was as much or more so than Hanford. But you got so you just lived with that. Gosh you never--but also you remembered a lot of those things for a long time even after you could've maybe talked about them. But this time nobody was particularly interested. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Was that difficult at all to be working and then come home and not be able to talk to anyone about your job at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. When you got off the--out of your building, why, we just didn't do it. Once in a while, they'd say, where do you work? And they'd say oh, you know, or something. Try to not answer. But if you did, why, you'd tell them what building you worked in, yeah. And every building had a classification about it. They wanted you to--if you worked in that building, you didn’t have any business talking about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Is there anything from your experiences working at Hanford that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to talk about or think you should talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, yeah. There’s things, things, oh gosh--at the time, there was a lot of things that I would like to have talked about. But now I can't remember anything right off-hand. Anything you'd like to talk about, it was classified. And you'd go to specialty school, special this, special that. And guards. But I enjoyed working there. I worked lots of overtime because I enjoyed the job. My outside interests was the military, and every spare minute that I had, why, I was with that either in Walla Walla--I was base commander at Walla Walla in the Reserve side, recovery units. So I was pretty busy all the time. I was looking ahead to either here or there. And then when I retired from the military, then I had more time to work here doing things, and with my family. Go places and do things. But it all worked out good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Well I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. I really appreciate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I'm sorry I can't remember a lot of things. Gosh, it's surprising me. When you stop using it and you weren't supposed to talk about it, then you just disappear it. I mean, unless someone mentions something, and then brings it up to you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Well you did a great job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: A lot of years! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Some really interesting stories, so, appreciate it. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:38 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview U Plant T Plant Dash 5 Building Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1986 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 251 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Colley Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Colley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/20/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Dash 5 Building Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) T Plant U Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdc0f2cdd12f6011b8d91de6fd335cf02.mp4 2c1ac9f583c71829747c1d137160ba4f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Drake Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Same deal. I got the introductory boilerplate, and then we’ll just, we’ll get right to it. Marilyn Drake: Okay, thank you. Franklin: Ready? Marilyn Drake: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Robert Drake on July 17, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Robert Drake: Robert J. Drake. R-O-B-E-R-T. J. D-R-A-K-E. Franklin: Great. And you prefer to go by Bob, correct? Bob Drake: That’s what most everybody calls me, yes. Franklin: Okay. Is it all right if I call you Bob? Bob Drake: Business world, doctors and so on, they all call me Robert. But that’s— Franklin: Okay. Well, I’ll just call you Bob if that’s all right with you. [LAUGHTER] Bob Drake: That’s fine. Franklin: I’m not a doctor. So. Bob Drake: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I just play one on TV. So, Bob, tell me how and why you came to the area to work on the Hanford Site. Or just first came to the Site in general. Bob Drake: Well, I graduated from Sunnyside High School in 1959. I didn’t even know the Tri-Cities existed until one night, my dad decided to bring me down here and show me Pasco, anyway. Then— Franklin: I guess that would’ve been kind of the big city of the area, right, besides Yakima? Bob Drake: Yeah, I think Pasco, at the time, was the larger of the three cities. Franklin: Okay. Bob Drake: Because it was the oldest. Franklin: Yeah. Bob Drake: Then my dad and my mom and myself moved down here, and we lived in a mobile home park in Pasco. He was working on one of the dams up the Snake River. Then I went to Montana myself and worked in a sawmill up there for about, I don’t know, six months or so. Then my dad told me, come on down, he says, I’ll get you called up on the dam as a laborer Monday morning. Well, I sat for six months without any work. I finally went to work in Columbia Park, and I worked in Columbia Park for five years. Franklin: And what did you do there? Bob Drake: A little bit of everything. Drove dump truck, bucket loader, mowed with the mowers that they had at the time. I just—whatever I was asked to do. Franklin: Sure. Bob Drake: So then, how we got to Michigan was, this gentleman and his wife came out, and I was taking care of the campgrounds in Columbia Park at that time. I did that for two years. But anyway, Fred Driller was his name, and Jackie was his wife. He was a pipefitter, and he worked out in the Area out here. Well, he’d get laid off every so often. After he went back to Michigan, he wrote me a—well, he called us. He said, Bob, if you come out, he says, you can get any craft that you want to be in, as an apprentice. Well, I went back and the first job that offered me an apprenticeship was in truck driving. I told them, no, I didn’t want to do that. And then finally decided that—my dad had always been a carpenter, so carpentry would be good enough for me. We spent five years back there. Our first son was born in the old Beyer Hospital in Ypsilanti, Michigan which was just east of Ann Arbor, about maybe five miles. Then they built the new Beyer Hospital. Well, I was a carpenter and I worked on the new Beyer Hospital. So our second son was born in the new Beyer Hospital. It’s kind of a joke between the wife and I, when we moved back to Richland, they had built the new Kadlec Hospital. My wife looks at me and she says, don’t even think about it. So, yeah, we already had our daughter. But anyway, I went to work for George Grant, I believe was the first contractor I worked for. I take that back; it was Lydig. Lydig was the first one. Then George Grant and Halverson pretty much kept me busy for most of the years I was here, except for when I worked at FFTF and at Number 1. Franklin: What was the name of that first contractor? Lydig? Bob Drake: Lydig. Franklin: How do you spell that? L-I-D-I-G? Marilyn Drake: That’s right. Bob Drake: I only worked for them the one time. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bob Drake: My brother—yeah, Lydig, he worked for them for years. But I only worked for them the one time. Franklin: And what did you—what was your job at FFTF? Bob Drake: FFTF? Franklin: Yeah. Bob Drake: Oh, I was just a carpenter. Franklin: And like what did you make? What did you— Bob Drake: Forms. Forms for—and every time we’d get the forms built for a pour, we had to wait for a whole month before they made that pour, because if they made the pour, it was already obsolete. What the deal was, every month they’d get in new—mm! Marilyn Drake: Specifications. Bob Drake: Mm. My mind’s blank. Marilyn Drake: Specifications. Bob Drake: Well, specifications, but that wasn’t they called it. But anyway, because if they wanted to make any changes in the pour, they would do that. Franklin: So this was like a wood form— Bob Drake: Yes. Franklin: To mold the concrete? Bob Drake: For pouring walls. Franklin: Oh, for pouring walls, okay. Bob Drake: Yes, that’s what we poured mostly. When I went to work there—I worked swing shift for about nine months. Franklin: Okay. Bob Drake: Then I quit that job and went to work elsewhere. Franklin: Okay. And then you mentioned that you worked at WPPSS, the Washington Public Power— Bob Drake: Yup, I started up pretty much on the ground floor of that. Made the base for the containment, was the first big pour that was made. And then the form worked for the containment was poured in ten-foot heights and we went up to over 300 feet. Franklin: Wow. Bob Drake: But as you got used to—you got used to going up to those heights, because it was just ten feet at a time. Franklin: Sure. Bob Drake: I never got afraid of heights at that time. And like my wife said, we worked out there until they got ready—in fact, the carpenter work was virtually done when the big layoff came. They had come out about maybe three weeks before that. Superintendent on the job told all of his carpenters, we wouldn’t have to worry about work because he had 24 other plants on the drawing board at the time. Not knowing that the nuclear system was just about done as far as that went. Franklin: Yeah. Bob Drake: But, yeah, it was quite a deal. I remember the one guy that, on our crew, Ray was his first name; I don’t remember if I ever knew his last name—but because of the information that we’d received, he and his wife went out and bought a new home, new cars, new everything. And then they walked up to us about three weeks later and handed us our final check. Ray said, you can’t lay me off. I got to have this job. And the boss says, we’re sorry, but we’re—they’re shutting it down. And as far as I can remember, it seems like to me, that one of the guys told me that Ray had had a massive heart attack and died shortly after that. Because of just the worry of how he’s going to make his payments on his home and stuff. But up here at the golf course in Kennewick, Meadow Springs, a lot of the guys that worked out there, men that worked out there, had gone up there and bought homes. They just let them go back, because they couldn’t afford to make the payments if they didn’t have any work. So they just all left the area. Most of the iron workers went to Denver, Colorado. Most of the carpenters went to South Bay, California, down around San Jose. Franklin: Which is where you ended up. Bob Drake: Yes, that’s where I ended up. Yeah, and it was really a surprise when we went down there. The parking lot at the carpenter’s hall was pretty good size. And there must’ve been probably 60 or 70 of us carpenters that had our—well, we stayed in the parking lot of the carpenter hall. And they welcomed us there because they said the carpenter hall had been broken into several times. But I take it you’re more interested in the things that went on-- I worked at the Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, really? Bob Drake: Yeah, worked for George Grant when we were pouring bases for the tanks. I don’t remember which farm it was that I worked on. I helped build several of the office buildings in the 300 Area. It was Grant and Halverson. Halverson was out of Spokane; Grant’s local here in Richland. But, like I say, for the 13 years we lived here, George Grant and Halverson, out of Spokane, kept me pretty busy. Franklin: What were some of the unique challenges doing carpentry at Hanford versus elsewhere? Bob Drake: It wasn’t any different. I remember one time, we’d made the lift that had the forms all formed up and ready for a pour. And they had the company people come out and check the forms and everything, and they said everything was fine. Then they sent the government inspectors out and they said—well, before they ever wanted the forms they told us they weren’t going to okay that pour. Well, 59 straight days we were there, waiting for them to give the okay to make the pour. Now, that meant Saturdays and Sundays, so we were taking home some pretty good paychecks. We mostly sat around and did nothing, just waiting for them to give us the okay to make that pour. And then they made the pour, and then of course, we made the next ten-foot lift. But yeah, 59 straight days that we were on the job. Franklin: Wow. [LAUGHTER] That is classic. Bob Drake: Yeah. Franklin: I’d like to ask a similar question to the one I asked your wife: what are your memories of the major events in Tri-Cities history such as the plants shutting down, WPPSS shutting down, and also but the plants starting up, like FFTF. Bob Drake: Well, by the time FFTF took off and was actually functional, we were living in California at that time. Franklin: Oh, yeah, that’s right. Bob Drake: Number 1 was, I believe, 65% done when they laid most of the people off. The only carpentry work left to do out that at that time was building scaffolding and such for pipefitters and the electricians. And then it was several years after that before they ever got Number 1 online. What was the question again? Franklin: Oh, just, I wondered, some of your events of the shutdown. Bob Drake: Oh, the one thing that sticks in my mind—when Columbia Center first went in, Richland was offered to take that in, and be in the City of Richland. But for some reason, the heads of the city decided they didn’t want to take the Columbia Center. Which I thought at the time was kind of foolish because of the tax revenue that they could get off of it. But, yeah, they allowed Kennewick to take Columbia Center. Franklin: Ah. Bob Drake: But that’s the one big thing that I thought was a little bit ridiculous, as far as the city— Franklin: Tri-Cities history? Bob Drake: Yeah. Franklin: You mentioned, earlier, that you—or your wife mentioned earlier that you have stage IV lung cancer that you link to working at Hanford. Is that something you want to talk about? And if not, that’s totally fine. Bob Drake: Yeah, it don’t bother me at all. In fact, I’ve come totally at peace with it; did shortly thereafter because I am a Christian, and if the good Lord decides to take me home with him, it’s a win-win situation. Franklin: Sure. Bob Drake: It was a big surprise, because prior to getting the information that I had the stage IV lung cancer—I play golf three days a week, and I walk the course. Never ran out of breath or anything like that. Then the winter hit, and I was—neighbors on each side are—well, the one lady’s 90 years old, so she couldn’t scoop snow. The neighbor on the other side, he has lung problems and he’s on oxygen 24/7. So I was scooping their driveways and sidewalks with snow, and never got short of breath. The good Lord had his hand in that, too, because I was sitting at home one day and the phone rang. And it was our primary care doctor’s nurse or receptionist called and said, Bob, according to our records, you haven’t been in in over a year for your physical. So we set up a date, went up there, and she checked my breathing and everything, and said more or less that I was fine. And then Marilyn, my wife, said, why don’t you tell her about when you lay—because six or eight months prior to that, when I’d lay on my right side when I was in bed, I had a hard time breathing. And so I mentioned it to her, and she checked my lungs again. She said, I’m going to send you downstairs and have an x-ray taken immediately. And then she said, within the next two days, I’ll give you the results. Went down and had the x-ray taken and left. By the time we got home, the phone was ringing, and we answered, and it was a doctor. She said, I want you to see a pulmonary doctor. She said at Kadlec they have three of them. She said, I want you to take the first appointment you can get. So my wife called and it was 4:00 in the afternoon and they were all gone home, but she left a message on the phone. The next morning, we got up and we just kind of lazing around the house. The phone rang, and again, the receptionist or nurse from the pulmonary doctor said we want you at Kadlec Emergency ASAP. So went over there, and they took—they had the x-rays and the doctor looked at me and he says, I can almost guarantee you, you have stage IV lung cancer. So, anyway, the next day, the three pulmonary doctors got their heads together and decide the next step they needed to take. So they decided to go in and take— Marilyn Drake: A biopsy. Biopsy. Bob Drake: I can’t— Franklin: A biopsy? Bob Drake: Yes, biopsy. So the next morning at 6:00, I was in and the doctor took the biopsy. It took seven days to get the results back. But anyway in the meantime, the pulmonary doctor that I had, he said that I had anywhere from three to five liters of liquid in the area where the lung was supposed to be. Well, the lung had totally collapsed. Franklin: Wow. Bob Drake: That evening about 5:30, he put the tube in, in my side, and drained about a liter-and-a-half of liquid. And—[LAUGHTER]—my wife has some pictures she can show you of—I was sitting in my bed, trying to watch TV and I was propping my eyes open, trying to—because all of the sudden, I couldn’t see the TV. She looked at me and I was swollen up like a toad. Well, what had happened when he took the biopsy, he must’ve nicked the lung, and the air was going into my body— Franklin: Oh, my gosh. Bob Drake: Yeah, and they related it to— Marilyn Drake: Rice Krispies. Franklin: Rice Krispies? Bob Drake: Yeah, Rice Krispies. Yeah, it was really strange. Franklin: Wow. Bob Drake: So anyway, they had virtually every nurse off of every floor down there wondering what they could do for me. And the head nurse on the fourth floor where I was at, she finally decided that they better call the doctor in. Well, it was about 8:30 when the doctor got in there, and he put this other tube in my side that was about at least a half-inch in diameter. They started pumping all of this air out of my system and so on. I was in the hospital for nine days. Franklin: Wow. Bob Drake: That was during the worst part of the winter when the weather was really bad. Then they sent me home and told me to go see the cancer doctor. I walked in and sat down in the room, and he told me, he says, Bob, if you don’t have anything done—any procedures done, you’ve got three to four months to live. So, anyway, as time went by—well, I took five days of massive radiation, five consecutive days. And that was over with. Then it was about six weeks before they got the okay for the medication. Pfeifer, I believe, is the name of the company, but it was going to cost $15,300 a month for the medication they were—it was a pill they were going to put me on. Well, I couldn’t afford that. So, anyway, the nurse and other people said, well, have you had your income tax made out yet this year? And we said, no. So they said, well, go down and get your income tax made out as soon as you can. And we took all that information back to the cancer doctor’s office. The lady there sent the information back to Pfeifer, and they said that they would give me my medication free. Franklin: Wow. Bob Drake: Which was a good—well, it was wonderful. Anyway, my oldest son and my wife were sitting there, and I said, if the pill makes me deathly sick, I’m not going to take it anymore. I’ll just—meet my maker. My oldest son says, Dad, you got to consider you’ve got loved ones here that love you. Well, anyway, as it turned out, the first morning I took the tablet, it made me a little nauseated and a little bit weak. The second morning, virtually the same thing only a little less, and since then, it hasn’t bothered me at all. Franklin: Hmm! Bob Drake: And I take that cancer pill twice a day. Franklin: Wow. And what led you or the doctors to suspect that you had got that—that cancer was linked to Hanford? Bob Drake: Well, I really can’t say. But anyway we filed through the government for the program they have going. Franklin: Right, the EEIOCPA, I think? Bob Drake: I believe that’s right, yeah. Anyway, they accepted my—you know. The forms that we filled out and sent in and so on. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Bob Drake: So, yeah, I was accepted into the program. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Bob Drake: Because of the time period that I worked in the Area was the main reason that I got accepted in without any having to prove or so on. Franklin: Right, because you would’ve been out there doing carpentry work during production. Bob Drake: Yeah. Yeah, well, like I said, I worked in the Tank Farms, and I remember looking over at a tank maybe 60, 80 feet away and it had rust around the bottom. You could tell that it had probably leaked. Franklin: And you were there constructing new, additional tanks. Bob Drake: Yeah, we spent some time out there building new bases for more tanks. Franklin: These would’ve been the double shelled— Bob Drake: I believe, so, yes. Yeah. Franklin: So concrete surrounding the steel. Bob Drake: I believe so, yeah. Franklin: Well, great. I mean—great that you were able to get into that program at the end easily without too much of a fuss. And thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Bob Drake: Well, it’s—no problem. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could describe any ways in which secrecy or security ever impacted your work? Bob Drake: No. Out at—when I worked out at 2 West, I had to check through the gates every day. Of course any time you worked in the Area, you had to go through the gates. But out there once a week, we had to get new permits and new tags that we wore around our necks. And those checked the radiation that we received while we were out there. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Bob Drake: But, no. It wasn’t that bad, the security, at all. Franklin: Okay. That’s good to hear. And my last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Bob Drake: It was just—to me, it was just another job. As far as the future generations, I still think that atomic energy is probably among the best electrical plants that you can build. And me and my wife have discussed this before, we’ve told each other many times, that we’d much rather live around an atomic energy plant, as to a—come on, dear, help me out. Marilyn Drake: Chemical. Chemical. Franklin: Chemical, or— Bob Drake: Chemical plant, yeah. Anytime. Franklin: Yeah, you hear that a lot from people that live next to nuclear power plants and chemical plants, yeah. That’s a very— Bob Drake: Well, you think of all the ships, most of the ships we have now in the Navy are atomic powered. And they’ve never had any problems with one of those, that I know of. Franklin: Right. Bob Drake: So, yeah. I’m not afraid of atomic energy. But chemical plants, yes. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, me too. Well, great, well, Bob, thank you so much for sitting down and interviewing with us today. I really appreciate it. Bob Drake: I just wish my memory was still quick enough that I could answer your questions without hesitation and so on. Franklin: You did a great job. That’s just how it happens with memory. You know? It’s just the way it goes. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:27:18 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Drake Subject The topic of the resource Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) Washington Public Power Supply System Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Robert Drake was a carpenter on the Fast Flux Test Facility, the WPPSS Project, and the Tank Farms. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/17/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F481704163b47c34d27908164c1fdc660.jpg 8a2e3bfe1edb0794b3cd9318e0e310fc https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fedbf9aa4f2660aeda91b37fc51893caf.mp4 c40bdc18fe18a007a6e57a94ccfefe2c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Fletcher Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Northwest Public Television | Fletcher_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I'm Robert Fletcher. R-O-B-E-R-T F-L-E-T-C-H-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 20th of 2013. And this interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by maybe having you talk about your family and how they came to this area, what brought them here, when they came-- that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: My folks--my mother and father--grew up in Wisconsin. They knew each other in high school, and my father came out west, because my mother had relatives in Idaho, and after she graduated she came out here to stay with them and go to business college in Spokane. So my dad was fond of her and he followed her by working his way west. He was an expert milker, and he could always get a job in a dairy. Because when you worked in a dairy milking cows you had to get up at 3:00 in the morning. And so when he'd work his way from Wisconsin to maybe South Dakota, and he would see--in the depot, in the train depot--he would look on the bulletin board for openings for milkers and he always found work. And he could stay there for several weeks till he got enough money to move on. So he wound up in Lewiston, Idaho, I believe it was. And eventually he and my mother got together and they got married in Coeur d'Alene, 1912. And I had a sister born in 1915 in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, Francille. And another sister was born in 1918. In the meantime, during World War I, my dad had been working in a, what's called electrical substation in Coeur d'Alene. And during the war then he went over to Bremerton and worked in the shipyards at Bremerton, wiring electrical wiring on the ships. And my mother eventually followed. My mother became a secretary and could do the office work. But after kids were born, she didn't do much of that. And then after the war was over, Bremerton jobs closed up and he went to the back to work at another electric substation down by Walla Walla, Milton-Freewater. And he had been raised on a farm and he had a desire to be independent. So at that time there were developments in Kennewick and then whole Tri-City area. They were developed because irrigation water was being made available from the rivers. And in Richland, there were private developers and they would get bonds that were backed by just state. The state government wanted to support the development to get started, and that was in late 1918s, '20s. And I'm sure my dad--well, my dad told me that there were brochures that these companies would advertise that, come to Kennewick or Richland, that water was available, the climate was ideal, and there soil was great, and you could make a living on just a few acres if you knew how to farm. So my dad travelled out here. His name was Francis, and C. F. Fletcher was his-- And he bought 20 acres of sagebrush. It was what is now on--what did I say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Spangler? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Spangler Road. He bought 20 acres there out there at the top of the hill. It was all sagebrush. And then later he bought 10 acres down below the hill where there now is a trailer park or mobile homes. He had to arrange to get the teams of horses to pull out the sagebrush and level the ground. My mother and—I believe that she had two children then, Francille, and Medo is my other sister's name, born in 1918. They came out by train from Walla Walla to Kennewick. And Morton Hess met them at-- Morton Hess had a improvised old pickup that dad said that they met them at the depot in Kennewick, and he brought them out to the farmhouse he'd rented. Before that, my dad had a team of horses, and he brought all his possessions in a wagon from Milton-Freewater to Richland that took him three days, he said, to make that trip with the team of horses. And so after he got the house rented, then he sent for my mother, had my mother come out with the children. And they lived in this rented farmhouse about a quarter of a mile away. And there were a few other houses, a few other farms being developed at the same time. So that took a lot of effort. It was 1920, and he told me that he had to put in the irrigation. The company brought water to the edge of your property and then you had to put in the pipe yourself. They were cement pipes, about three feet long, 40 pounds, eight inches in diameter. And he said he put in several hundred feet of this pipe and he thought he'd done a pretty good job. He worked hard. Turned the water on and it just leaked all over, so he had to do it all over again. He was pretty persistent. And then they had a hard time the first few years because he was small, a small person, and a greenhorn. About the only income work you could get then was to work for the irrigation company if you wanted to earn some money. And usually that was when the water was shut off and they had to clean and repair the ditches, open ditches. And he said they wouldn't hire him for a year or two because they thought well, he was a greenhorn. He wouldn't last anyway, and he was kind of small. But he stuck it out. And what happened was they had to put in some new pumps for the irrigation system, and these were larger pumps. They were three-phase motors, and there wasn't anybody immediately around that knew how to fix them, how to hook them up. Excuse me, I get very emotional. So he told them he thought he thought he could do it. He wasn't too sure. He said he could do it. He told them he could do it. He said he, personally, he said he wasn't too sure. But anyway, he went ahead with it and they worked fine. And after that, he said he didn't have any trouble getting a job for the irrigation district. And later on, several years after he got the farm started and everything, he did become manager of the irrigation district. When I talk about the irrigation district, it wasn't a huge one, but there was about 5,000 acres under water. And most of the farms were like ours, 20, 30 acres. And because you had to have a team of horses. You couldn't farm like you can nowadays with everything mechanized like it is. Lots of hand labor. So I was born in 1922, and I believe that they were still in this rented house. But in the meantime, they'd begun work on a basement, which was about half underground and half above ground with concrete side walls. And so it was above the ground enough, it had had fairly good sized windows. And there were just two rooms. The total probably wasn't more than 40 feet long and 20 feet wide. And above that they put a temporary sort of a shelter that was more of a tent house with a wooden roof and canvas with a wooden frame with canvas around it. And that was our bedroom. That was where we had our bedrooms. And it was cold in the winter and hot in the summer, but in the summertime you could roll the canvas up and the evening breeze would cool it off. In the wintertime we had feather beds and my mother would warm up hot irons on the cook stove, and we'd wrap them in towels and put in our beds. And we managed, thought we were living all right. There wasn't any bathroom--there was no indoor bathroom, no indoor water supply. He dug a well down below the hill. Had to do it by hand, about 20 feet deep. And the way to get water up to the house, he had a, we called it a stone boat, it was a sled. He hooked the horses to it, the sled, and to pretty good sized barrels, I suppose 40 gallon barrels or something. He'd fill them with water from the hand pump down below the hill. And he'd circle around it, bring that sled up. That was the water supply for a few days. But of course, it didn't always last long enough. And I can remember my mother carrying two buckets [EMOTIONAL] of water up the hill. Excuse me. It was a hard life for women, especially, carrying water up the hill, and all the other work they had to do then. She was in charge of the garden. Of course, we had our weekly bath by a copper tub on a cook stove. And the tub, and that's where we took our weekly bath, and shared the affair. The two rooms in the house were the kitchen and then where we ate. The other room was the living quarters and where somebody might sleep if they were not feeling well, otherwise we slept upstairs in the tent house. So those were the early days. It took them quite a little while for my dad to get established, and also get some crops down that they could pay for their living expenses. And they had Fresnos then that the team of horses would pull, and they'd scoop the dirt and dump it in the low places and level it out. And farmers worked together on that. I can remember our neighbors--as I said, most people lived within a quarter or a half mile of each other. The Barnetts and the Nickolauses lived close to us and we shared--when it was time to put in some of the crops, the Barnetts would come with their mowing machine and there would be two or three mowing machines and everything going on, and we'd go back and forth and get the job done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So what sorts of crops did you grow then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: We--it was truck farming. We had to raise--we had to have cows. Truck farming was not too reliable. You had to, to fall back on, you had a herd of cow--most all farmers had a herd of cattle which they had milk cows and some beef cows. And you milked the cow--you had your own milking and made your own cheese, but you could sell to the creamery in Kennewick. And we had a milk house where we'd separate the cream from the milk. And we had the Twin City Dairy, I think it was, would come by once a week and collect the milk. We'd keep the milk in a cool water place or something. I don't remember now in details. We didn't have refrigeration. Maybe they came back twice a week. I'm not sure. So we had a herd of cattle, and of course you always had a team of work horses. And I had a pony when I got old enough, about third grade I think. In school I got a pony that had been tamed--he had been one of the wild horses from Horse Heaven Hills. And a bunch of horses had been caught. And we bought it from another fella, and he as a real-- Shorty was his name, and I thought he was the greatest horse, because he could outrun any horse. We had horse races. And a lot of the kids, the only horse they had to ride was a work horse. So I was very fortunate. Anyway, we raised alfalfa for the cattle and the animals. Alfalfa and clover, and of course you had to mow the hay in the summertime and let it dry and put it up in wagons and carry it and take it into the hay stack for the winter. We also raised some acres of corn, of field corn, although we could eat some of the corn when it was quite young, but it was mostly raised for the cattle. And we had an in-ground silo where we had a—we’d bring in, when the corn was mature we'd cut it down with machetes and bring the corn stocks and ears and all and run it through the chopper and made silage out of it. It would ferment in this silo, which was about 20 feet deep and it was dug out near the barnyard. And about I guess 12 feet wide or so. As a kid it looked bigger, probably, than it actually was. But anyway, that was part of the barnyard. And with the silage and the haystack, we kept the cattle going through the winter. Because you had to have enough hay to get through and that took quite a load. And then for field crops, we had a cherry orchard of three or four acres. We raised asparagus three or four acres. And that was a job that--that was a cash crop that game on early in the year in March. And the whole family pitched in. We got up early, almost daybreak to cut the asparagus. Before school you had to have it cut. And then they'd go ahead and you had to pack it in crates to get it ready to market. So we had the asparagus, and then we had, between the trees in the orchard-- one time my dad experimented with peanuts. And I don't think they turned out too well because I don't remember him having them very long. We planted strawberries. We had strawberries that we picked after the asparagus was done, the strawberries would be get ripe. And then the cherries would get ripe in June usually. And so it was staggered out. And then we always had a field of potatoes that you'd dig with a team or horses and a digger. But before you did that, you had to get seed potatoes, and they came whole. The family would--we had a cellar in our house. We'd cut those potatoes into quarters, so there's an eye on each one and that would sprout into a potato plant. And we spent probably a couple weeks, maybe not that long, cutting the seed potatoes into where they could be planted in the field. And I'm trying to think of other crops that we had. I know he tried different ones. We had peas--peas in a pod. And I don't think that paid off too well because I don't remember it lasting too long. Oh, we had some peaches. Not a big orchard, but we had some peaches and apricot trees. Those were sort of under my mother's domain, the garden and the apricots. And she made sure that we all pitched in and helped do the weeding and planting and picking. And all of that had to be picked and canned for the winter. I can remember my mother and sisters working hard--doing a lot of work canning. And the cellar was just full of--they were quite proud to display, in those days, to display their glass jars of fruit, peaches and everything. And took it to the fair to see if they could win some blue ribbons. So we didn't buy too much from the local grocery store, except cooking oil and bananas--fruit that wouldn't grow here. Orange. Those were a treat. Just a few times during the year bananas and oranges we got at Christmastime or your birthday or something. And the store was John Dam's, John Dam Plazas down here, named after the Dam Grocery Store. And there were two men, John Dam and Victor Nelson. They ran the grocery store. And you didn't go looking for your things. You handed them a list. You wanted two gallons of kerosene for your lamps and lanterns that you needed. No electric lights. And as I said, cooking oil, and flour and sugar in bulk. And once in a while you'd get a treat of candy or something such as that. So I think that covers pretty much what the farm was like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: The crops that you grew, the cherries, strawberries, did you sell those somewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. We picked and put them in crates. There was what they called the Big Y--it was in Kennewick. And it stood for Yakima I think. Yakima--there was a branch of Yakima Produce Company. And later on I worked there nailing, making boxes for different kinds of fruit when I was in high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: In fact, most kids did extra jobs like that. Excuse me. I've got to take a drink. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about your farm. You mentioned some underground silo. Were there any other buildings on your farm? Any warehouse or barn or any of that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. There was a barn from the cows, of course. And there are pictures in my booklet of some of these chicken houses in the yard, a couple of chicken houses. And a milk house. We had pigs. The pigs consumed a lot of the excess milk. You could--they'd eat most anything you had that was extra. And that was another thing we shared was when it came time to butcher a cow or a calf or a pig for meat, there was a man that was sort of a local veterinarian--I don't think he had a degree--Sam Supplee. If your horse got sick, he knew what--or an animal got his foot caught in the barbed wire, he knew how to treat it. And he'd come by. And he also knew how to butcher animals quite well. And he would come out. And I can remember that we had a hole, a pit dug out where we could put a fire in there, and it was covered with some kind of bars or metal affair. And a vat of water would be put in that over the fire at ground level. And adjacent to that would be a platform where the pig was killed. And after it had been killed and the organs taken out, they'd roll it into that vat of boiling water and then pull it back out again after a few minutes. Then you could scrape the bristles off of the pig. And Sam Supplee then would do the rest of the butchering. They'd hang it up to cure overnight, and then to cut it up. And for his efforts, he'd get part of the meat, or other people that had helped out, and that's the way that they operated. And he was a local person they turned to. There were other veterinarians in Pasco or Kennewick, but he was the one that they mainly relied on. Our horses, we had two work horses, Star and Monte. I can remember them well, and that was one of my jobs when I got home from school, after, was usually to rub them down after a day's work in the field, because they'd be all sweaty. Or on days when I wasn't at school, too, in the summertime, too take them down to the ditch where they'd drink a lot of water. They got real hot and sweaty. And then take the harnesses off. And there's lots of preparation before you could do too much. And so those were some of my jobs was to take in--you got home from school, the first thing to do was take in the firewood for the wood stove or the heating stove. And there were plenty of other things to do around the barnyard, to clean out the stall, or clean out the barn and see that horses were fed and such things as that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: The thing was, I think that maybe a little different than nowadays, kids knew that they were part of the family and that they were an important part of the family. And that they had jobs to do. And just it was the thing that made families close. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I wanted to mention, too, that we did have special family friends. I mentioned the Barnetts. And they had kids that were--Dan Barnett was about my age. And my sisters had--they had daughters. Anyway, they had kids about our same age. The Hackneys were another family that lived not very far away and had a farm. And there was Richard Hackney and Dan Barnett and I were always good friends for a long time. And some other kids in that area, the Supplees. So I guess I forgot where I was here. The Hackneys and the Fletcher families and the Carlsons were particularly close. The Carlsons also had children that were our ages. And we would get together for family picnics, and especially Fourth of July we'd make our homemade ice cream and take to Pasco Park where there'd be fireworks. And then in the summertime, we always had a break in the farm work of about four or five days where we could get away from the farm. Usually it was around the Fourth of July or a little bit after. And we would get away because the irrigation ditches were shut down for a few days, about four or five days in order for the ditches to dry out and the weeds could be cleaned out. Because they clogged up with moss and other stuff. So that they would dry out the ditches and we could get away from the farm, as long as we had a neighbor to take care of the animals that we had. And there were enough other people that would do that. We'd trade off. So we would manage to get away for about three or four days and go up to above Yakima, Naches and up into the woods. And we we'd take our tents. One of the, the Hackneys, Art Hackney was a school bus driver, and school bus driver had to have their own buses. They'd own their own buses. So he could do with the bus whatever he wanted during the summertime. So he would be the one that we would load up the bus--he took a few of the seats out that could be taken out-with our camping gear in it, and some of the rest of the people would ride in that bus and others would go in their car. We'd invite some of our friends to go along too. So we'd have quite a group and several tents set up there around the lake up at Naches, Rimrock and up in that area. We had a wonderful time up in there with all our friends, and sitting around the campfire at night and hearing the stories that the older folks had to tell. So that's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. A real sense of community there, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. Part of the community. It was a close-knit community for sure. And naturally, you had more close friends with some of the people than you did with others. But as I said in my book that there was no--when you were gone, nobody as I knew, locked their houses or worried about any of that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. You mentioned earlier that the house you lived in there was no running water, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: No electricity. Did you ever have a telephone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: That's another little story. My mother, her relatives lived in Wallace, Idaho, and her uncle, aunt and uncle, her uncle was a master carpenter. And they were very close and would come down to visit us and they were very helpful. When we were, when my folks were just starting out, they were a backbone to help them out as much as they could. They bought eggs from them and they'd ship them. I have some letters that my mother saved of that period in time. You may be interested in some of those. Anyway, they would come down, and after my dad--after he had this basement house built, they was able to save up enough in about 10 years to--Josh Pentabaker was my uncle's granduncle's name--was the main carpenter. And they arranged to buy a load of lumber from a lumber yard or a sawmill up in Bickleton, and they rented a truck or got somebody to haul this load of lumber down. And this Josh Pentabaker and my dad, and I think he got some local help, to get started on building a house above to replace that tent--actually a tent house that we had above the basement house. And then they enlarged it also. They made the basement twice as large to accommodate a more modern house. And that was in 1933 or 1934. And I think it was 1934 before we occupied it. And that included indoor bathroom and running water. In the meantime, before my dad was able to build a dig a new well up on top of the hill, he had to go down 60 feet for groundwater. And so that was quite a project. But he finally got it done. And he got an electric motor then. By that time, see, there was no electricity until during Roosevelt got the REA started, rural electricity or whatever the word is, REA. And you got an electric pump to pump the water up into a tank. And then you had pressure to run the water from the tank into the house--had water pressure. And so we had running water, we had an indoor bathroom, and those were quite appreciated. I think we got electric stove--that was one of the first thing. And that was quite an improvement over a wood stove. Oh, and then there was. And he didn't have enough money, I don't believe—oh, let me tell you, or let me go back just a bit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Josh Pentabaker got this house pretty well built, but he had to go back and do his own work back in Wallace, Idaho. And my dad negotiated with a carpenter here, a local carpenter, Vandersant-- he was a Dutchman. And my dad traded a cow, a milk cow for this fella to put in a--he was a master carpenter, too. He put in the kitchen cabinets, is what I'm trying to say, and some of the other cabinets in the bathroom and things like that in exchange for this cow. Now, there may have been other things involved, but that was the main thing. He told about that in later years, and I can vaguely remember. In addition to the basement then, we got a root cellar where we kept most of our things cold. But anyway, before he could get a refrigerator, he cut a hole in the wall of the kitchen and he made a cabinet inside, and hung outside a metal tank or a metal thing that held water. And then he ran down some gunnysack fabric and that wetted enough to evaporate and cool the cabinet inside. It was quite a contraption. But it worked enough that it probably wasn't much cooler than the basement, but anyway, it was up and it was handy. So that was when we--in 1934 I think that we occupied the house that's there now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Did you ever have a telephone during the time you were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, we had a phone. You cranked it. I'm trying to think whether we had it when we lived in the basement, whether we had it there or not. It was a party line, and there would be three or four people on the same line. And you answered according to how many rings. If it was two rings it was yours, or a short and a long or something like that. And of course people listened in on what was going on. We had a crank--it was, you cranked it up in order to make the signal. And there was a main station downtown. We were three miles from the downtown area up on what is now George Washington Way. And what's the name of that street? I can't remember all those--the house was on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Spangler? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Spangler, yeah. Spangler Road. We had to--you kept up--Dad kept up with what was available. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. How about news? Was there a newspaper, or how did you learn about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: There was. There was the Benton County Advocate came out once a week. In fact, I think I still have some copies of that somewhere. It was mostly local, of course. Somebody was entertaining a company from Wallace, Idaho or somewhere, or somebody was sick in the hospital. Ed Peddicord was the--as I remember, he was older than myself but younger than my parents, and he became the first postmaster when the Hanford project took over, and he was the postmaster for quite a few years before he retired from the Richmond Post Office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about the school that you went to. Where was the school? Any memories you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Okay, there were, in the downtown area of Richland, the--I'm trying to relate it to--the grade school went from grade one through grade eight. And it was two story with four classrooms on the bottom and four on the upper level. I think they had electric lights, as I remember. The floors were wood floors, and they treated them with oil before school was started and at Christmas vacation. So when you came back from school--they'd wipe them up, the oil--they'd treat the wood floors. They'd wipe up the oil before classes started, but there would still be all these spots left on it. And so we had to take our shoes off when we came home at night because we would track oil, that oil. That was just for a few weeks or for a week or two. And the stoves had a jacket around. Of course they were--I believe they were coal stove--they that coal. And there would be a jacket around, a metal jacket around the outside to it, a couple of feet from the stove itself so the kids couldn't get up and get burned. But the jacket that surrounded them was probably three or four feet high, metal jacket. And we would—I remember hanging our white gloves things on that metal jacket to dry them out. And that was in the back of the room of course. That was your heat in the classroom. As I said, the bathrooms for boys and girls, most of them separate of course, were outside where you went out to the bathroom. And I don't recall any running water or anything in the—The other, the high school was, it wasn't torn down when the project started, Hanford project, right away. And it was built more--it had indoor bathrooms, was more up-to-date, more than the grade school, four levels. There are pictures of it in my booklet. So that was quite a step up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you remember any of the teachers from either school, or do you have any favorite teachers from that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Oh yeah. I remember most of my teachers. My first grade teacher, Ms. Randolph, older lady. And she was very good. I can remember putting our mittens up around that canopy around the stove in the wintertime, put your mittens up to dry. And I can't offhand remember, but I can visualize most of my teachers. There was Mrs.--Miss Mallory--she was single then. Taught me in fourth grade. And there was Bill Rader, our eighth grade teacher. Kind of he was a pretty good disciplinarian. If people got out of line, he had a paddle that he didn't mind using. There was--I can't think of the names, really, offhand. And then of course, in the high school I remember more of the teachers that I had. The superintendent, he also taught a few classes in, because the grade school had one class of every grade level. I started in the first grade, I was five years old, and I became six in November. And the kids that I started with, about half of the 20--I think there were 20 in my graduating class--about half of them were the ones I started in first grade with. That's how permanent the group was. There was a lot of permanency. And we moved onto this--where each grade you had the same ones, you knew the people. There would be two or three changes each year. And like I said, of those 20 or so that started, probably about half of those in my high school class were the ones I started first grade with. And so we knew each other very well. And the others I'd known quite well, too. My wife, she came later and joined when she was in about seventh or eighth grade I think, and she graduated two--I graduated in 1940 and she graduated in 1942. And in my graduating class there was 20, and hers there was only 12. I don't know why particularly. The high school, it was in freshman year you usually took Typing and it pretty well diversified. History classes, English classes. I can remember the teachers, Mrs. Deighton and Mrs. Carmichael. She's the one that got very emotional when the kids acted up and would carry on. Mr. Carmichael was the superintendent, and Mr. Whitehead, rather. We had basketball teams. We played against--Kennewick and Pasco were out of our league. They were from too big a town. So we played Benton City. I played--even though I'm pretty short, I was on the basketball team. We didn't have a football team. We weren't big enough. [LAUGHTER] The high school was only--with four classes, probably only 80 students altogether. And so I was on the basketball team the last couple years anyway. And we would go up to--Hanford was about 20 miles upriver, and White Bluffs. They were a comparative size. And to Benton City, and also to Finley. We used to call it Riverview then. It was a comparative size to what we were in Richland at that time. So we had a group that we played softball league and basketball. No football that I can remember. We weren't big enough to be in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: And did you take a school bus to get to and from school then, or how did you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yes. We had--as I said, Art Hackney had a school bus that they owned their own school bus. They had a contract with the district. And there's a picture of myself and my two sisters in that booklet I gave you, waiting for the bus and there's a picture of the bus. It was kind of a--it looks kind of obsolete now, but that was the way they did things then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So you graduated high school in 1940. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: 1940. Then I went off to Cheney for a year. And decided I wanted to--didn't want to continue there. I wanted to--I thought I wanted to be an engineer, but I didn't have really the background from the school. At least I could blame it on that. So I transferred to Pullman in my sophomore year. And during beginning of my junior year, I was taken in--I was in the ROTC and we signed up for deferment or whatever you call it, but they said we could finish out the year we were in during my sophomore year. No, it must have been my junior year. That’s the third year. But it turned out that they couldn't—they took us, they drafted us and I think it was about January of my junior year in Pullman, from WSU. And at that time I was a member of Sigma Chi. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So was that January of 1943 then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: At some point that year, of course the Federal government started constructing the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Right. I came home before--they allowed us, when they called up the ROTC, fellas in Pullman, they gave us a couple weeks to come home and see our folks. So I came home, it must have been the end of January of 1943. And saw my folks, and said goodbye to my sweetheart, Betty Kinsey was her name--became my wife. And after I went back then, I went back to Pullman, and they took us shortly by train from Pullman over to Fort Lewis. And it was an old, real old train that I mention in my booklet that looked like it was one from the pioneer days. There was a--I don't need to go into all the detail, but there was a coal-burning stove in the end of this railway car for heat, and we went over there in the first of February to Fort Lewis. We were not in the army until they took us over there and were forced in it at Fort Lewis. And shortly after that, I got word from my folks that the word had come out that Hanford and White Bluffs and even Richland, it was all going to be taken over by the government for this Hanford project. And that was in, I believe they got word in late February. And the people up at Hanford, which is, of course, is where the actual reactors were, were notified and given about 30 days to evacuate. And my folks, of course, we lived--my dad was the manager of the irrigation district at that time, of the Richland irrigation district. And they had more time because that was where the workers were going to live. But in the meantime they built Camp Hanford out here where we are sitting about right now, and maybe just a little further north. And you probably have the history of Camp Hanford and all that. But anyway, they were allowed to stay I think about six months, whereas the others further up where the reactors were being built, they had to get out quick. And so my folks looked around. They bought a place. My dad, by that time, they offered some of the people work. Most of them were farmers and they wanted to continue farming. And that was my dad. He, by that time, the kids were gone. I was the youngest. The other two, my sisters, were married and off and living on their own. So he decided he'd go back to farming, and they offered him a job to see to some of the irrigation, the way it was continued. But he decided he didn't want to do that. And a number of people did take jobs here for temporary. So where was I now? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So your family had six months you said after they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, about six months. They found a place in Kennewick then, and my dad then bought some place and he put in a fruit orchard over on what became Blossom Hill in Kennewick. And we took over the old house. When I got out of the Army--I told you about that in my booklet here, that we took over their house, the two-story house that was on what's now where Denny's is at the corner of Kennewick Avenue and the Umatilla Highway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were given for their-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: In those days, at that time, the government was not as benevolent in their takeover of land. And they did not really offer what the land was worth. So my folks, my dad was one of the leaders of the group that took them to court over the offer. And this lingered on for quite a while, because my dad was one of the--as a manager of the irrigation district. And John Dam that the park is named after, and two or three others, they figured that they were being offered what the land had sold for in Depression days, which had just been more or less begun to get over in 1943. And my folks and others were beginning to feel established, that here they'd worked most of their working lives for 12, 15 years getting to where they felt like they were established and could make a good living. And now they were being offered this, where they had to leave relatively quickly. And not being offered enough to buy something comparable in other areas, where they found they had to pay more than what they had been offered. So this went to court and drug on for a while. They did get a settlement that my dad was involved in. But it took quite a while and it still did not--they were not too happy about it. I'll put it that way. But anyway, they got over it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: And so you heard about this happening when you were at Fort Lewis? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, I was still in the service. I was sent from there to Camp Roberts for infantry training. And I was there until June. See, this happened--I was taken in up in February I guess it was, and we had 13 weeks, almost four months, I think it was, of infantry training there in Camp Roberts in the desert in California. And then I was sent back to New York City. I had an opportunity--then they took some people to specialized training or a specialized training program called ASTP and I was able to get into that because of my college background and I passed some tests, I guess, and so forth. And so I was back there at the time and at Camp Roberts in California at the time that all this took place in Richland, and their dislocation and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you remember what you thought at the time when you found out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: [LAUGHTER] What I thought about that? About all this happening you mean? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Well, so much was happening, you didn't have time to think too much about it. Because I was involved in the training and we were kept busy night and day pretty much, and then the infantry training camp and being back there. But I heard about it. They kept me up on it, and there wasn't much you could do about it, and neither could they, because that was it. You could appeal, but that was a long process, the appeal was. So they just took a time to get over it. They got over it eventually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Are there any events or things from your childhood growing up in Richland that sort of stand out? Special memories that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Probably quite a few things. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: A number of things I mention in his booklet that I gave you. One thing I particularly remember as a kid was I had this pony, and my neighbor kids had ponies too, or else work horses that did the job. And so we could roam around quite a bit. We had a lot of freedom. We all had rifles. We went out hunting. And the jackrabbits were quite numerous, I remember. Going just about a mile from where we are now, there was a sand hill over here off of Stevens Drive, which we called Pole Line Drive. Those days there was a sand hill over there. And there was an irrigation ditch that ran along this sand hill. And we'd go in and the boys--take our clothes off and we'd swim in this irrigation canal. There was a flume there, too, and that was kind of an interesting thing to go through. And we would take our rifles, and there was one farm that was close to this sand hill called--I'm trying to remember the name now, Sam's. Anyway, he had a--his farm was right adjacent to the open sagebrush land and sand hill. And if you were there in the evening--he had an alfalfa field right along the edge of this sort of a desert area. At certain times in the dusk, there'd be whole bunches of jackrabbits would come in. I remember we would go there with our rifles, and my friends, Dan Barnett and Richard Hackney and I, and we'd wait for dusk. And you could shoot these rabbits. And of course Mr. Sandberg I think his name- yeah, Sandberg was his name, he welcomed anybody that would get rid of the jackrabbits for him because they were destroying his alfalfa field. And so we'd shoot a bunch of jackrabbits. And they did have jackrabbit drives once in a while, and they had pictures of them. I might have some in some of my folks' stuff. But anyway, we had ponies or horses and we'd go out, and sometimes we'd go up the river from here, Dan Barnett and Richard Hackney and I. And as I said, I had a pony that had been caught on the open range and he could outrun practically any horse around. We would go up there and we'd camp out for a day and we would find some old prospectors up there. They would be panning for gold. And I don’t think, from the looks of them that they found very much, but they were interesting characters that'd tell you stories about their life. And we kind of envied them a little bit, but nobody wanted to do what they were doing. Anyway, then we would go up there and we'd camp overnight. Other times, we would go up there--I said that my folks and the Barnetts and the Hackneys had-- we had a boom in the river. We'd catch driftwood coming down for our--did I tell you about this before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: No, okay. If I ramble, tell me. We'd go up, my folks or my dad and the other men, we would have wagons--we'd hook the work horses to the wagons. And we'd take enough food to last a couple days. And us boys would go along, and some other boys were old enough to help, and some of us were too young to do much, but to tag along and have a good time. And we'd go up there and we'd set up a camp, and the men would have a log boom up there. They'd attach logs to each other and run them out into the water. And when the water would rise in the spring, it would lift these drift logs from upstream, clear up around where Grand Cooley is now, before Grand Cooley was built and any other dams. And these drift logs would drift down, if you had a log boom out you'd catch them, as the water would--the high water from the snow melt. And if your log boom was out far enough, you'd get a whole bunch of logs in there and that would be--which then we'd go up and the men would take their team of horses and use their chains to pull these logs out of the water that had been caught in the log boom. And then they'd have to cut them up enough to put on their wagons to haul them down home. And this would take two or three days to do. In the meantime, us kids, the younger ones, we'd have a great time with shooting rabbits and doing some fishing off what was left of the log boom. And fixing our hot dogs over the campfire. It was quite an experience. And we all wanted to go. I think the girls envied us. They couldn't go. I don't remember any of the women going. But when they got the wagons loaded, they had them all--I remember they had sideboards on them, so that they would be loaded up to the maximum. And of course the roads weren't too good. The horses would be really worn out by the time we got these loads down to where we lived. And we'd have to wash them off, rinsing the horses off with a hose because they'd be all that, and it would be quite late in the evening before we made it home. So that was quite a big event in our lives, and especially for the young fellas like us, we thought that was great. I'm sure the men folks were glad it was over. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: So we had quite a few trips where we went out. I had a friend, Scotty who lived out in Yakima River, and I would go over--he was the one that I think I told you about the time that--maybe it was in my booklet. About the time that our well--the well that we dug up on the top of the hill, the 60 foot well, it had been real cold that winter, and usually the well didn't freeze, but it froze that winter. And so Scotty, my friend, he was the adventurer more so than I was. He said, oh, I can go take a blowtorch down there and thaw it out. Well, he did. My dad led him down this well. The well was hand dug and it was only about so big around. And there were iron steps put in the cement as they went down. As I said, it was 60 feet deep. Of course the water stood up in it about 20 feet or so. It would fluctuate. So Scotty went down with a blowtorch to thaw this pipe out because it had frozen the pump. And he got down there and I guess the confines of the gas or something, it exploded, and he was lucky he wasn't killed. He made it. Somehow it went upward rather than downward and he was able to get out. But his face was black and his eyebrows were singed off. And he was quite a mess from that occasion, but he didn't have to be hospitalized. They put cream on his face and I don't remember whether they got the pipe thawed out or not. I don't think so. I think it took a few days before it got the water up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So if someone was to ask you what it was like to grow up in a community like Richland, how would you respond to that? What would you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: It was an interesting place to grow up because you were involved in all the activities. You were important as a member of the family. There were chores to do. You also had interesting experiences. You had time to play with your neighbors and develop your own activities and sports to a great extent. I guess probably I look back on it more with rose-colored glasses than it actually was, because I'm sure it was harder for the adults, too. Because it was kind of touch and go for them many times. There was no WPA or relief organizations. People helped their neighbors out when they needed it. I can remember a family that lived not too far from us. The man, the husband died, and they had some fairly young children, the Fraziers. And the wife was left with these--I forgot how young they were--two or three youngsters, and their small farm. And the people of the community just helped out. There was no other organization that they knew of. And later, Bruce Frasier who was in that family, who was about my age. He wasn't a classmate, but he told me years later at the reunions we used to have, he said, did you know-- [EMOTIONAL] did you know how much help your mom and dad did--I'm sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: It's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: How much help your mom and dad gave my folks. And I said I had no idea. He told me that my dad and mother, and others--he said it wasn't just them. But they're the ones that made it possible for him to survive. And this, they didn't talk about it at all. Excuse me, cut it off a minute? Wipe my eyes here. I'm glad to get this opportunity. Don't take me wrong. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: That’s all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I am glad to get the opportunity to talk. There's not too many people who want to listen to it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Can I have a little drink? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. I think we're just about finished anyway. I think we've covered a lot of the things that I wanted to cover. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So I guess is there anything else that we haven't covered that would be important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I think we've covered everything pretty well. I've probably gone side-tracked a lot. And it was a role in that community, as I said, that they did help each other out in many ways. And that they're very independent, too. And there aren't too many of us left. We still get to have a reunion. We did-- it's getting down to where there aren't very many of us left. Last year we met at the Old Country Buffet and I had a good time. I think there may have been about 20 of us. But about half of them were descendants, children that brought their parents, who needed help to get there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Oh, okay. So this is a reunion of people from Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: The old time Richland, yeah, they lived in old time Richland. There's another-- the Deranleau, Ray Deranleau, he was quite a storyteller, he still lives here, and he was just a year or two younger than myself. And Alice Perkins is his wife, Alice Perkins-Deranleau. And I kind of think he'd be in the phone book. If not— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: And Price Colley. George Colley his name was, but there's a Colley family that he was there last year, and he's quite a storyteller. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] About what time of year do you usually get together? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Usually in the middle of September. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Middle to late September. Edith--I used to be the one that was in charge of getting the literature out and the reunions set up. Anyway, Edith Wiedle-Hansen, H-A-N-S-E-N, is the one that is doing it now. She was in my wife's class two or three years behind me in graduating from high school. And she's still here. I could maybe give you some more information on that later, if you wanted to call me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I don't know, if you have trouble. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I just want to thank you very much for coming in today and being willing-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I enjoyed it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: --to have me asking questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Okay. I hope that some of it’s good use. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: You've been very helpful. Thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:22:15 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1922-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Hess, Morton Dam, John Nelson, Victor Supplee, Sam Barnett, Dan Pentabaker, Josh Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Peddicord, Ed Hackney, Art Hackney, Richard Kinsey, Betty Frasier, Bruce Ray Deranleau George Colley Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 171 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Fletcher Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Fletcher conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/20/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-25: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Hunting Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdbd718b79d1f988d24251aea1b4e38f5.jpg e4b1c7bdb606c73fec977cbbc22f06e8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb6921fc7098314a0afd3699821f6159b.mp4 10ab8576fa884d32172da6bde53d4e06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Franco Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Franco Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Franco conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F23127b7a557379c4d895826b8e87083a.jpg 751cde1617140a69ad306cab58e7872d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc9557cd415a10bb2fe40e112f8f0f741.mp4 0d22005908e0c7b3b55e7f5984928730 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Gallagher Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Gallagher Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Gallagher conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F88bce9b81ca249db9848f70b7af43ee8.JPG 2e687cd91e36f387ec1b2604db2a6752 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Parr Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: And do you like to go by Robert or by Bob? Robert Parr: Bob. Franklin: Okay— Parr: If I get going too far, Robert is usually a buzzword that causes me to refocus. Franklin: Okay. We will have to put out your full legal name when we introduce you. Parr: Okay. Franklin: But then I’ll refer to you as Bob from then on. Parr: Yeah, okay. Franklin: Okay, you ready Victor? Victor Vargas: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Robert James Parr on November 17th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name? Parr: My last name is spelled Parr, P-A-R-R. My first name is Robert, R-O-B-E-R-T. My middle name is James, J-A-M-E-S. Franklin: Great, thank you. Thanks, Bob. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work at Hanford. Parr: I graduated from WSU itself in 1973 with a degree in police science and administration. Franklin: In Pullman. Parr: Pullman, the big campus. And after I graduated, I went into work into law enforcement. I ended up in the late ‘70s working for the State of Washington State Liquor Control Board, long before cannabis, as an enforcement officer. It was a good agency, both regulatory and criminal enforcement. So it was—no day was the same. But when I looked at it, the pay and benefits weren’t what I thought they would be. And then I noticed—I saw an ad in I believe it was either the Seattle Times or Seattle Post Intelligencer that Atlantic Richfield Hanford—ARCO—was looking for people to work for them in their uniformed security group called the Hanford Patrol. So I checked it out, and I found out that their pay was much better than I was working for the state. So I went and interviewed with them at a hotel—I think it was the Doubletree, or is the Doubletree now at Southcenter in Renton, Washington. So I did the interview, and I noticed that everyone else being interviewed, we were all ex-military or law enforcement. So I took the interview, and then they offered me a job. I had previously applied with ARCO, and of course at that time the transition occurred, so it was now Rockwell Hanford. So they offered me a job starting in—I interviewed, I think, sometime in the December timeframe, and then right after New Year’s they offered me a job starting to work in February 1980. So I was married at the time, so we moved over to Tri-Cities, got an apartment, and I had done my physical and all the screening before. And then I started to work for Rockwell Hanford in February of 1980. My initial employment—my initial job was with Hanford Patrol. So, they had their own—they called it an academy, and it was at what is the 1100 Area, which used to be—one of the activities we did at the 1100 Area was the bus lot. Because we had buses onsite. So at the office where the buses were dispatched from, about the back third of it was the Hanford Patrol Training Academy. It wasn’t much, but that’s where I went to work, and initial training was about seven weeks. While I was there, I received my—I already had had a clearance from the Department of Energy—security clearance. So my security clearance showed up, and since I had a security clearance—many of my peers in this class—there were about 20 or 30 of us—didn’t have clearances, so they were work approvals, what we called WAs. But I had my Q security clearance, so I went right to work. My first assignment was in 200-West, 200-East, and 100-N. So I worked out at the north end of the site for a couple months. And then I got reassigned to 300 Area, which was a composite area of—we did fuels production and research there. So it was the contractors—we had Rockwell providing security and fire services and transportation. United Nuclear was operating fuels production for the N Reactor at the north end of 300 Area. We also had Northwest National Labs, Battelle Memorial who was operating in there; they had several facilities. And then Westinghouse Hanford was doing fuel production and research for the Fast Flux Test Facility, which wasn’t online yet, but almost was nearing completion. So I did that for—I was there for quite some time. And then about less than six months after I showed up, I got promoted. The Hanford Project, the uniformed security and protection onsite hadn’t really adjusted to changing times in society there. They issued us revolvers, and that was when revolvers were starting to be phased out. Automatics, or a more modern sidearm, was being issued. So the big change in technology was their alarm systems. Westinghouse Hanford had led the way. They actually wrote the software. We were using computer-operated security system at 300 and 400 Areas, 400 being Fast Flux Test Facility. So I got to get in on the ground floor of that. I participated in the acceptance test process for both 300 and 400 Areas. We brought the system online. It was state of the art. Westinghouse had gone out and found the best equipment and the best systems, and then wrote their own software for the system. So it was much beyond the old analog systems we used to have onsite. Many of the alarm systems at that point, particularly ones at the Plutonium Finishing Plant were technology from the ‘50s and were probably installed in the ‘60s. And here it was the ‘80s—and the mid-‘80s by now. So we did that, and eventually Rockwell, they also put in a similar system at Plutonium Finishing Plant. But they had a problem: the people that they hired to write their software were two guys in a garage. And it didn’t go well. God bless them for trying, but it didn’t go well. So they ended up buying the Westinghouse software and then they had their software people come in and make some adjustments to it based on their equipment. So they were similar systems. So I got qualified to operate all of them, and shortly thereafter I got promoted again. So now, instead of being a supervisor in an alarm facility on a rotating basis, I was now the coordinator responsible for all four rotating shifts, first at 300 Area and eventually at Fast Flux Test Facility. So I did that until 1993. During that time, Department of Energy was also ramping up its efforts on security, trying to be a little more professional and coming into a more modern era. So they had developed a central training academy down at DOE Albuquerque, at that field office. So they came up to Hanford, and they had developed a training program to teach supervisors on security forces how to train their employees. So I took it, and that worked good. But I was also—when I first moved to Tri-Cities I was on Coast Guard Reserve and I drilled at Station Kennewick, a small search and rescue. It’s the navigation station. So I drilled there, but the Coast Guard started downsizing in the Reagan administration. So I shifted over to the Army National Guard, and shortly after I joined the National Guard, they sent me to a school to learn how to be what the Army called an instructor. So all of the sudden I had two pieces of paper—one from the Department of Energy and one from the Army—saying I was an instructor. Well, in 1993 I was offered a job at Plutonium Finishing Plant with the training department. So in the fall of ’93, I left Safeguard and Security, the Hanford Patrol, and went to work at Plutonium Finishing Plant as a—you could call it instructor, but the official job title was Training Specialist. And then they went through several changes, so I think I’ve been a technical instructor, I’ve been a senior training specialist, and so four or five different job title changes; same job. At Plutonium Finishing Plant, they hadn’t quite—they had a vacancy, so they put me in it, and initially my manager’s idea was, well, you can assist someone on a key training project. So I got assigned as the second instructor on several training projects. And then one day, he walked in—the manager walked in, and he was looking for one of the employees that I was paired up with on one of the projects. And he said, well, where is he? And I said, I don’t know. He said, well, are you running that class today? And I go, what class? Because my peer and I hadn’t even talked about it. So next thing I know, I was now the person responsible or person-in-charge at Plutonium Finishing Plant. And it was a program we set up in response to a finding: when you have an event in those days, they would investigate it and then they would figure out what the corrective actions would be. So the finding, the corrective action, was that we would start a training program at Plutonium Finishing Plant for person-in-charge. So we mirrored it after a similar program at FFTF. And next thing I know, I’m running a training program, and we’re putting all the supervisors—the workforce supervisors in the plant are going through it so they can learn how to perform work at the plant. Almost all our work at the plant was done in either procedures or work package. Work packages were usually maintenance- or construction-related. So I got to be the—my title soon became the PIC-meister. Because not only did I have to coordinate their training, but I also had to develop their certification and qualification. So I did that much of the time I was there. And then other programs started going my way. I also ended up teaching Safety Basis. Because at a DOE facility, it’s somewhat similar to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission-regulated facility, an operating commercial reactor. But their idea is that the Safety Basis is those documents, those commitments that have been made on how the plant can be operated. In other words, to a non-commercial DOE facility, it’s your operating license. So every time we proposed an activity, we had to look—or sometimes even a construction or maintenance package, we had to ensure it was within the Safety Basis. So I ended up teaching that course. So pretty soon my work focus seemed to be emergent training. Anything we had an event or an incident, where training was needed the day before yesterday, it ended up on my plate. So that’s what I did. By that time I was in the Army National Guard, and then after 9/11 happened, the 27th of September that year, I got a phone call at work telling me to come in. So I cleared work as fast as I could, came home. My eldest daughter was living with me. She fixed a boxed lunch for me, and I got in the car and I started driving towards Fort Lewis. And that first time I was gone sixteen months. Then I was home and I left again for a year-and-a-half. Went to Iraq twice. And then I came back, and in between that, there was all kinds of little three- to four-week taskings from the Army. And then in 2008, I left for four months, and came back for three months, and then I left in—January 2010, I got a phone call, and the phone call was, Sergeant Major, are you going to be on the plane tomorrow? I go, what plane? Well, you’re flying to Afghanistan tomorrow. Well, thanks, could you send me a set of orders? So they faxed a set of orders, and I walked up to my manager and said, I’ve got to leave. And that was about 9:00 in the morning, and by—before 11:00 I was turning in all my keys, my security badge and everything, and I was leaving. And then I didn’t come home for two years. And I came back, and by that time, President Obama was President of the United States. He used stimulus money to many federal agencies. And the Department of Energy took it, but their approach was a little bit different. While in the Army, we used some of it, but we hired companies to come in to do work for the Department of Defense. Whereas DOE used the approach of having their contractors hire more employees. So I came back and the stimulus money was running out and they were overstaffed. So the next—they offered a voluntary reduction of force, a layoff, early retirement. So I asked my management what my retirement’s worth. And they—so I drove down to, I think it was Stevens Center, not far from WSU Tri-Cities. And I walked in and they went over my retirement with me, and god bless them, they gave me credit for time served. Not like a jail sentence, but my time on active duty with the National Guard. So I raised my right hand and said, I’ll take it. And I left, and my last day was the end of September in 2011. And I had four years of great veteran’s benefits through the VA bill. So I took my veterans benefits and came back to WSU Tri-Cities this time. No athletic eligibility so the university couldn’t screw with me much. And I got another degree. Franklin: And what’s your degree, what was that degree in? Parr: The second degree is a Bachelor of Arts in Social Science. So I got to take all those cool classes that—the first time around, I declared my major the first year. And in the early ‘70s, once you declared your major, your goose was cooked, you took what they told you. They offered you a very narrow pathway. So the second time around I got to take fun things like economics and lots of psychology and some English courses. A lot of history. So I think I developed into a better-educated, much broader person. Franklin: That’s really fascinating. Parr: Yeah. Franklin: Good to see someone come in the social sciences, too, as a historian. So I see here on some of the notes Emma had written up that your father worked at Hanford as well? Parr: My father was an Army officer. Hanford started out as an Army project. Corps of Engineers and the DuPont Corporation, which was quite a corporation back in the day. It still is. But they did a lot of work for the government in the ordnance field. And the Navy used the approach—because the Navy was heavily involved—not heavily—but involved in the Manhattan Project, and they were doing some of the uranium research. So the Navy ran it through their Ordnance Corps. The Army ran it through the Corps of Engineers, but the Corps of Engineers didn’t have all the resources. So one of the things was, because at the time Hanford was believed to be a viable target in the event of total war. So initially we sided—my father was Coast Artillery which later became Antiaircraft Artillery. So my father was one of the officers that was detailed here temporarily to site the guns. And they did some site work, and eventually that siting work, when they put one of the Nike systems—the missiles, to ring the Hanford Site and I believe around Fairchild Air Force Base in Spokane. Some of the siting work that they had done in the ‘40s was used to site the missiles when, I believe, they were being placed in the ‘50s. So my dad was here temporarily. He was one of a lot—a lot of Army personnel came and went. I think people get the—we even had MPs here. We of course had antiaircraft artillery which later became air defense. So for many years there was a heavy Army presence here. It wasn’t totally—it wasn’t like you’d see an Army uniform everywhere, but Colonel Matthias was the commanding officer. And a very unique approach, because his approach was that—and Dad told me about it—his approach was that he was the commanding officer, and he was responsible. Later, when I came back to work here, I didn’t see that same attitude with the Department of Energy. Because one of the things I noticed is—I worked for a lot of contractors. First started looking at ARCO, then it was—when I came here it was Rockwell Hanford, then it was Westinghouse Hanford, then it was Babcock & Wilcox, which a lot of people think of them as the maritime boiler company, but they’re also heavy into the nuclear business. A great company to work for. They were only here for a year. And then it was with Fluor. Then eventually when they broke up all the little contracts, I worked for a company called NREP, which was the training contractor—one of the training contractors onsite. And then eventually after I left, after I retired, NREP went away and they consolidated back. One of the things that I noticed about DOE is a contractor will be—of course they don’t screw with Battelle. It’s hard to screw with those guys because they do great work for a lot of different things, and they’re on the cutting edge of so many different technologies and they’re so important to our national wellbeing. But DOE would start beating up on the contractors. So you know that contractor’s probably going to be on its way out. And Department of Energy over the years—god bless them. They’re great Americans. But they can’t seem to make up their mind how they’re going to run. Sometimes it’s—when I first came here it was five or six principal contractors, and then they went to one big contractor, and then they broke it down again, and then they subcontracted out a lot of work, and then now they’re bringing it back. Franklin: Do you think that has to do with the fact that DOE—higher-ups in DOE are subject to political appointments? Parr: Not only the political appointments but also the budget process. But I don’t see that constant shifting—you see it in other federal agencies, cabinet-level agencies, but not the extent that DOE does it. It’s almost like, well, we can’t do it. And then oftentimes, I’ve known—I think one of the things that’s responsible for a lot of—for some of the problems—we didn’t have a lot of problems—but some of the events we had out at Hanford were directly related to the field office, Department of Energy Richland. They’re great people and everything, but sometimes I think the guidance they gave, and oftentimes the funding for the program was stopped at the end of the fiscal year, we were told, don’t spend any more money on it, leave it as-is, do something else. Well, that’s kind of what happened at the PRF explosion. But it wasn’t DOE—it wasn’t the field office’s fault? Strange. Franklin: Can you talk a bit more about that event? That was in ’97? Parr: Mm-hm. Franklin: And you were working at PFP— Parr: I was in a training group. It occurred on a weekend. So got to work, and you could actually see the—some of the—you had to know what to look for, but you could see the external damage to the facility. And of course, I had been involved in training the shift supervisor. I was at his oral board when he qualified as shift supervisor, because I supported oral—one of the things I got assigned with was supporting the oral boards. So I was at his oral board, and I’d known him for several years, and I thought he was probably one of our better shift supervisors at Plutonium Finishing Plant. But I had—I noticed, as we did it, and then they came looking for the training packages, well, we never—we did initial training on operating of PRF, but it got stopped, they withdrew the money from it. So I don’t even know where the training packages were. But they were concerned—and I noticed that our emergency response to the event was flawed. We didn’t respond well. We hadn’t trained on it, and we hadn’t really devoted a lot of time and effort to emergency preparedness. It hadn’t been a focus. So I got involved in the corrective action. I ended up teaching. We now instituted a drill program at the plant. So I got involved in the drill training program. In other words, how to train people that are working the drills. Many of us were ex-military, so we understood how to run a drill. No big thing. But we had a formal training program. I ended up adding some material to the PIC training program. So there were a lot of corrective actions, and eventually we demonstrated readiness to go back to work. But the issue still was we were told to stop working at PRF. So it just—and we didn’t really devote—we should have devoted time—we should have had the resources to look back at that and figure out what the hazards were that were still remaining in PRF. But we were told not to spend any more money on it. So when it’s the end of the fiscal year and you’ve got no Costco to charge activities to, you don’t work. Franklin: Our project’s grant funded. Parr: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: We’re a subcontractor, so I understand. Can you talk a bit about—so you would have been at Hanford during that—and I think on patrol during that transition period when the Cold War ended and when production wrapped up and we shifted into this new phase. I wonder if you could talk about that transition. Parr: Well, the big transition initially was—and the one was much harder to discern—was the transition from the Carter administration to the Reagan administration. All of the sudden—it was much easier to see in the National Guard, because all of the sudden, new equipment started showing up and you started getting money to train with and send soldiers to schools. But here at Hanford we started getting new equipment. That’s when we—security had pretty much done—we’d upgraded all our alarm systems. But then we started getting money for communication systems, Hanford Patrol’s initial entry training started changing. And I noticed it elsewhere onsite, because we went from kind of a standby mode as far as defense work then, to actively producing material. Really significant change. And that went on for several years. As the Reagan administration ended and we went into President Bush’s administration, the level of effort kind of reached its maximum, as far as funding for defense work. And then I remember when the wall came down, we kind of backed off defense work. And then, okay, stop that, we’ve got enough plutonium. We closed down PUREX. FFTF was going away because they decided that that type of reactor wasn’t going to be it, even though we had received funding from the Japanese to do work. And they couldn’t find research work for FFTF, so they started shutting it down. Even though it was, at the time, it was probably the most modern reactor the Department of Energy had. But we had never, never gone to the idea of making a dual-purpose reactor and producing power. We’d done the engineering studies for it, we’d done some of the preliminary design work, but we never installed them. Franklin: I thought N Reactor was. Parr: N Reactor was, but we were going to do that to FFTF. So we’d actually—there was actually a piece of ground at the Fast Flux Test Facility where they were going to do that. And the engineering and preliminary design work had been done. So we kind of shifted from that, and it’s as if we were struggling for a national energy policy—where are we going to go? Franklin: Interesting. Parr: So we kind of—and the N Reactor—when Chernobyl went, the N Reactor, I believe, was in a fueling outage—its annual outage. So then we began to look at the fact that the N Reactor was a unique reactor. Very effective, very economical to run. Washington Public Power Supply System had built their generation plant next to it. But the political—Chernobyl caused a lot of—well, obviously, it was a severe blow to the Soviet Union. And the Ukrainian people are still having to deal with it. But the ramifications and fallout from any event in an industry, and nuclear’s probably one of the more visible ones, causes a ripple effect elsewhere. And our ripple effect was we never—we did the engineering analysis, but I think the political outcry was a little bit too much to reopen—or resume production at the N Reactor. Then also we really didn’t need any more plutonium; we had sufficient for national defense. So it kind of became the issue. There’s a lot of politics. So let’s go into that for a minute. Let’s talk red and blue states. Red being the party—a red is a Republican state; a blue state being a Democratic state. We are a blue state. Both US Senators come from the other side of the mountains. In this area we have one voice in Congress that speaks for us, the local congressman. So when even Spokane, which is Republican, too, when it begins to turn against this industry and this area, then politically it becomes no longer viable. Then of course we had—the congressional delegation from Oregon was speaking out against it. So it becomes politically unviable. Franklin: Right, right. It was kind of—Chernobyl kind of kicked off like a perfect storm to just kind of hurt the nuclear industry and Hanford. Parr: And then—I believe it was 2000—there was an event in Japan, a criticality at a production facility. And that also caused a wave of consternation. Although it was interesting, because one of the subjects I instructed at PFP was criticality safety. And we were very diligent about it. We did refresher—everyone got a—you got your initial site training and then because you worked at PFP, we had a PFP specific class talking about the risks we had for criticality safety. And then we had an annual refresher course. So we looked at what was going on in the industry, using the lessons learned, and some of the changes in process we were doing to plan. It was usually a one- to two-hour refresher class every year. So we looked at all that. But when the Japanese had their event it was kind of interesting. Some of the experts—or the people I depended on to give me advice on what to put in the training event—were criticality safety experts from Northwest National Labs. And all of a sudden, I’m calling someone—well, he’s not here. Well, where is he? Well, he’s in Japan. Then I realized, okay. So, some of our top people in our industry from right here at Hanford went over to deal with the issue. Franklin: Interesting. You worked for a lot of different contractors. That’s always kind of a—it’s interesting to me how, you know, because we say Hanford Site, but that really obscures the organization of the site and the work. I’m just wondering if you could talk a bit more about that—shifting between contractors like that, and how that affected the mission of the site, how that might have affected employee morale, and how it kind of affected you personally. Parr: Well, I think that the big transition—because I got here after Rockwell had come in. So I’m working for Site Safeguard and Security. And I get my paycheck from Rockwell. But I work at 300 Area, which in those days—United Nuclear was about 10 to 15% of the puzzle. Because I knew—I saw what our funding was for security services coming from. But most of it came from Westinghouse Hanford, Northwest National Labs, Battelle Memorial. And I noticed that, working with their security staffs from all four companies, that they were very—Northwest National Labs was very, very different. The people they had working their security programs were security professionals. They were very much into assets protection. Not only people, but information and also property. So assets protection was very big for them. One of the things that I—the first thing that struck me was when I went to work at 300 Area, they’ve got a book—a three-ring binder—and it’s got every one of their facilities with a floorplan and a description of what’s there, is there any special nuclear material there, are there any classified document storage areas? You know, what is the security force protecting? Incredible. No one else had one. Westinghouse was pretty much on the same level. Very much an administrative security. Had great programs. If you needed—if something unusual happened and you needed their management’s approval on it to get it, you were talking on the phone with those people and usually within three to five minutes, they’d be calling you. Incredible. They had a different mindset. They were building FFTF at the time, and they were very much—their corporate and company philosophy was very much on operating reactors. Because they built reactors, they built reactor vessels themselves, so they were very much into that commercial power production. They were a large government contractor, not only for DOE but other agencies. They did a lot of defense work. They did a lot of work for other federal agencies: Department of Treasury, Department of the Interior, Department of Justice. So there was a big mindset of meeting the customer’s needs. Westinghouse was very employee oriented. Of course they were only about 1,500 employees, whereas Rockwell was several thousand more. So it was very interesting working for Rockwell but being in a Westinghouse Battelle UNC facility. So I kind of—we kind of felt like orphans. It’s like—no, I’m very serious. Each one of the contractors had their own company newspaper. So, Rockwell, we’d get it two or three days later. Westinghouse, the day it was published, it was brought by our building, too. Even though everyone that worked in that building except for the janitor—the custodial staff—was a Rockwell employee, Westinghouse delivered it. They reached out to us. And then when they ran the big—at that time, and that’s when DOE field office went to one big contractor—of course Battelle had their own thing. So that didn’t change. But all of the sudden, it’s like the management of my own group was very—they worked in a Rockwell facility at the north end of the site. They weren’t too happy. But we didn’t have any problems making the transition, but they did. There was a lot of turmoil—not a lot, but a significant amount of turmoil in the north end of the site, particularly in Safeguard and Security, because all of the sudden Westinghouse had a successful program and they went out there and they weren’t impressed by some of the programs they found. Franklin: So that’s the reason, then, for some of that turmoil or hard feelings? Parr: Oh, yeah. Westinghouse, you didn’t want to lose control of special nuclear material. That’s really a bad thing. And Westinghouse’s standard, how they did their administrative program and their controls, was much more developed, much more thorough. So when they moved in—so now they’re taking over Plutonium Finishing Plant, which had a large amount of plutonium back in the days. They weren’t—it was kind of a shock to Westinghouse. Oh, we’ve got all this—before it was just fuel components. Now they’ve got weapons grade material that’s designed for ultimate defense work—the end use being defense work. So there was a little turmoil there, but then in about six months it all kind of evaporated. And then employees were actually sad when Westinghouse left. Because Westinghouse was much more attuned to employee communication, employee benefits. Rockwell—it was kind of interesting. I remember one time I had to go to east. This is where Rockwell Hanford’s corporate office was. I go out there and I’m walking around and I look, and in all these offices—even in cubicles—because there was some offices, but there was also cubicle land. You’d walk out and you’d see pictures of the B-1 Bomber which was a Rockwell aircraft, when Rockwell still made aircraft. And I’m looking around, and down at Westinghouse, everyone was an ex-Navy nuke or ex-commercial power nuke. But out at Rockwell, they were all refugees from when the B-1 program got canceled, so Rockwell moved all these engineers out here. So it was a very different mindset: the aviation versus naval nuclear and the commercial nuclear industry. Franklin: Interesting. So you said Rockwell was the aviation. Parr: Yeah, North American Rockwell, the old aviation company. Probably the most famous aircraft that—I’m sure that they made other ones—but the one that comes to mind is the P-51 Mustang. That was their biggie. Franklin: You’ve mentioned of the older security systems that were still in place in the 80s and you said analog. Can you give me an example of an analog security system? Parr: Well, it was a system where the point of where the actual, shall we say, sensor, whether it’s a magnetic or whatever, when contact is broken it sends—you lose connectivity, so it would send a signal and it would—the little mechanical panel would go red and make an audible tone and go red. So kind of a dated technology, whereas-- Franklin: How would you track that from a central area? Parr: Well, it’d be hardwired, usually to a facility that would be nearby. Franklin: Okay. Parr: At PFP, the alarm facility—the central alarm facility was a little wooden building—no, I’m serious— Franklin: I believe you. Parr: --that was near the main entry point into the plant. Franklin: Okay. Parr: But a more modern system would—you could actually, you’d get—the signal would—you could actually query the signal to see the strength of signal and is it because the system—there’s a power problem? In other words, is there a problem with the system, or is it an actual alarm? So you could query it back. And there were no microwaves, there were no—they were usually—their presence detectors were very limited in capability and obviously, no cameras—or very few cameras. Franklin: So like CCTV would have been a big introduction. Parr: So when they did install CCTV, there was—the fuels production facility was the first one to bring it online. They actually had—you could see the entry point into the secured area, you could see the hallways, you could see the primary rooms where the primary points of value were. And then on the perimeter, they normally had fixed cameras, pan-tilt zoom, but then they also had cameras with low-light capability, with flood lights on them. So it was much—and then there was actually a perimeter fence line and security system. Although at the 300 Area it was kind of dicey, because we were retrofitting a security system into an area where there’d been none. So there was some areas you couldn’t put a double fence line, so we ended up with a single fence line, supplanted with motion detectors—microwave motion detectors. And then they also had a fence that was monitored. They called it a taut wire system, because it was a weapon that if it ever were touched—and sometimes by small animals or tumbleweed—we seem to have some of that out here at Hanford—it would go off. So you’d take a look on the camera, see what it was. Franklin: Oh, okay, yeah I bet that would help you reduce a lot of false alarms. Parr: One year after a fire—we seem to have fires out at—well, range fires at Hanford are not unknown. But we had one fire, and I can remember at FFTF that the debris from the fire kept plugging up our perimeter system for several days thereafter until we got a work crew in there to actually pick up the debris and partially burned pieces and the full tumbleweeds. Because the fire would generate a lot of heat in the air, so not only do you have debris from the fire itself, but you also have debris being moved by the air currents. And the way the wind was blowing off Rattlesnake Mountain. Franklin: Did you—sorry, I’m just looking over some of my notes here, and I wanted to ask you about—oh, shoot. It says here that in the 1980s, you helped during an anti-nuclear protest at the Federal Building? Parr: Oh, I remember that. No, I didn’t do it. I was on duty that day. And what we’d done is, in the ‘80s we had anti-nuclear protests. And we believed that one was going to be big. So Safeguard and Security and the Hanford Patrol being the uniformed service, they pulled a lot of us in to work that day, and then they took key people—and they actually had buses from Site Transportation, they were going to take care of the demonstrators. Because once they crossed onto the Federal Building property, that was DOE’s area of responsibility, no longer the city’s. So anyway, there’s about—there weren’t that many protestors, perhaps 20 or 40 at most downtown. So there were all these people, and we probably had 50 to 70 people staged and ready to go. Get the buses, put them on the buses, and take them to the federal magistrate. Then all of the sudden, there’s a call come out. There’s people without badges inside West Area at the north end of the site. And apparently—we’re down—I think I was at either—I can’t remember if I was at the 300 Area in the alarm facility or 400 Area—but I’m listening to this, and all of the sudden the frequency’s going crazy—patrol’s primary operating frequency—and then the second frequency, the tactical frequency, is getting busy too. You can hear the voices on the radio, a little bit of stress going on. And we’re all laughing like hell, because, you know, hey, that’s where the weapons-grade material is. Aren’t we protecting that? Of course, we were heretics. We’re giggling, you know. It’s funny because it’s not happening to us; it’s happening to someone else. Because we had additional staff at 300 Area and we had additional staff at FFTF because it’s an operating reactor at the time. So apparently what the demonstrators had done is they walked in from Highway 240, and West Area isn’t that far in. They’d walked in, hopped over the outer fence, a single fence line in West Area—hopped over the fence line in West Area and they’re marching towards—and of course, unless you know West Area, the big, tall, long buildings all look alike. They’ve all got stacks and water towers. You can’t tell the difference between one of the old canyon buildings—one of the old production facilities—and PFP. So, all of the sudden, they’ve got protestors in West Area, but all their resources, except for the bare minimum, are downtown. But then it gets even better. When they got the protestors, they put them on a bus, and they thought they’d just being going to the district court in Kennewick. No, took them to the federal magistrate, out of town. Franklin: Wow. Parr: Yeah. So, it was kind of funny. But we had gone and—the funny thing was, because of the—they actually, in those days, most of us wore tactical uniform, camouflage or whatever. But the people who were actually going to detain and transport the protestors all had to be in full uniform, you know, pants and shirt and badge. So it was one of the better events. Franklin: I interviewed a gentleman a while back who worked at PFP who talked about when they would load the product up, and there would be very heavy security and people that almost looked like they were in black ops, or like very—I was wondering, were you ever involved in any of that or did you— Parr: The Department of Energy had a courier program, and they were based, I think, at Albuquerque at the time. And they usually had a transport vehicle and escort vehicles. They were specially trained to protect the shipments. There’s other ways to move things, but usually once a weapon is produced, it’s turned over to the military, and their transport is their responsibility. But components—whether it’s plutonium or whatever—would usually be transported by the courier group. When they took all the material out—and that happened while I was—probably most of it was done while I was in Afghanistan. It was the same courier group. They had extremely good communications, so it’d always be known where they were, and there were contingency plans in case there was an event. And I don’t think they ever—other than a mechanical failure of a vehicle, I don’t think they ever had an event. And of course protestors were always fixated on, you know, the media was always fixated on the white train. Yeah, okay. [LAUGHTER] I’ve never seen one, but—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of working at Hanford? Parr: The most rewarding one was—I think the people. When I worked in training, I got to know everyone—almost everyone in the plant would come to one of our training events. Some groups needed—the higher-risk job, the more training you got. So it was working with the people. And then some people, it was just a paycheck. But the employees who took pride in their work and enjoyed their work, those were always the fun people to be with. Not that they were there for fun, but just, it was very rewarding to work with them. Now I’m retired and I still see some of them around the community. So it’s always fun to see someone that I spent—you know, worked with. I still see the vice president of the Steel Workers’ Local, because I worked—I got to work closely with him. So to see those people, and to see their successes and to do that. The difficult part, sometimes, was employees who were just there—or people who were just there for the paycheck. Or struggling through personal issues. Being able, trying to help them, or to get—a shift, a work crew doing a work package, they’re people. And the strength of any group is always at the level of the lowest performer. So the performers who were struggling, those were the tough—or the ones who were—sometimes you get cynical. People get emotional. And dealing with the cynicism. I think one of the toughest things I ever had was—I wasn’t involved in the project; I was training, but I wasn’t the trainer for that particular project, but I was doing some other training. They worked hard, they were staging the materials—I think it was the Pencil Tank Reduction at PFP. They were about to take the pencil tanks, clean them up, reduce them in size, and then shift them off to scrap. And they were making hard to get the materials to write the pre-procedures to do the job, get their training in order, and get ready to go. In the aftermath, when Department of Energy said, well, we’re not going to do that right now. But materials had already been—a considerable amount of resources had been pushed in that project to get it ready to go. But then Department of Energy said, well, no, we’re not going to do that. We’re going to take that money and we’re going to use it for something else. Planning at Hanford is always one of our toughest things. Has been for years. There’s so many things we did that—where it never came off, or things changed. Not too far from here are the bus lots at 1100 Area. And the parking lot’s at 300 Area. We spent a lot of money—or the government spent a lot of money improving those parking lots, making sure they had the good drainage and so on and so forth. Improving the bus lot and making it a much safer, much more efficient operation. And then we canceled bus service. A couple years later, I know that our local law enforcement—I think Richland Police Department—used it for a pursuit driving course, that piece of ground, and now it’s gone commercial. But all the things we do, and then all of a sudden—boom—we never realize the full value of what we had spent money on. Franklin: You kind of—I’m sensing from that and the comment you made earlier about the lack of energy focus—maybe do you see kind of a lack of focus at Hanford or kind of surrounds some activities at Hanford? Parr: I think when Congressman Foley—Tom Foley—was speaker of the House, and he was from—let’s see, we’re four, I think that’s 5th Congressional District, in Spokane. Speaker Foley—and this was probably about the time of the Chernobyl issue and all of that—Speaker Foley proposed, in a public statement, transitioning Hanford from Department of Energy back to Corps of Engineers. And knowing a lot of engineers, Army engineers, they’re great people and they do great things. And I looked at that, and I go, I don’t think that’s the right move. But now looking back on it, and having worked with the Corps of Engineers in both the reconstruction of Iraq, before we withdrew, and then a lot of the work—there’ve been some mistakes—a lot of mistakes in Afghanistan and Iraq. But looking at some of the work they’ve done there, I hate to admit it, but I think Tom was right. We should have switched. Because I think the Corps of Engineers is a lot more focused and a lot more planning. Because they don’t look at—oh, we’re going to—I think the Corps looks at the long-term: five, ten, fifteen, twenty years. And looks for a strategy. Whereas I see Department of Energy, particularly—and I know the field offices are all different. What I saw in DOE Albuquerque was different than DOE RL, was different than DOE Rocky Flats. I think the Department of Energy field offices, particularly Richland, focused on the near-term, not the long-term. The near-term being this fiscal year and maybe next. But I see that in working with Northwest National Labs, I noticed they were always looking at where we’re going to be in four, five years. And I think—because with the Army I got to support a couple projects. Then I was in Afghanistan. We were doing something and I needed some reach-back capability. So unofficially I reached back to Northwest National Labs to give me help with something in Afghanistan that I was encountering. And it took me a couple days to find the right person and then get him up on a secure—I’m not Hillary. So I used a secure—all my emails were in a secure system—and to reach out and get that information, so how we could be more effective in Afghanistan. So I saw that kind of work, and I see—dealing with them and watching what they’re doing, they’re looking at the—they look at, they forecast out in the future. What’s it going to be like in ten, 15, 20 years? What’s the end state? I think RL has gotten, or particularly in my time, they were in the survival mode, reacting, rather than planning. I think one of the key losses we had—we had the DOE RL manager one time was a guy by the name of Mike Lawrence. And later he left, but I noticed when he left—I think Mr. Lawrence was—he planned, he looked at things. He tried to anticipate where the federal budget was going and what the program was going to be. And I think after that, it became a more reactive group. And now I continue to watch, and I watch them—we were spending money—apparently taxpayers were spending money on upgrading the Federal Building, because they’re the primary occupant there. And then they said, no, we’re going to move our office—move our staff out to the Stevens Center Complex, which is right off—between George Washington Way and Stevens. So we’re going to move out there. So you figure, oh, okay, that’s going to cost a little money. And then what’s going to happen to the contractor employees there? Well, they’re going to just—the taxpayer owns the Federal Building, but the Stevens Center is leased facilities. So I can’t—I can’t figure that one out. God bless them, but I can’t figure it out. Franklin: Yeah, we exist in a similar thing here at WSU. Our project is in a leased facility and it seems to be the way that—I would agree with you that that is—there’s more focus recently on our near-term solutions, especially here in Richland, but ignoring the long-term solutions. Maybe because the long-terms are scary. I don’t know. But— Parr: You’ve got to—what do they say in the Army? Oh. Embrace the suck. Franklin: Yeah. Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to cover? Parr: Well, it was interesting being at Hanford Patrol initially and watching them come from a more security force that was designed just to check badges and check classified repositories and respond to alarms, become more a professional force. It was really exciting watching their training group. When I first came here, they’d get up and read a manual and that was your training. Their firearms training was superb. Best I ever had. Probably better than anything I’ve seen, even in—I would put their marksmen up against the best of the best. Whether it’s HRT and the Bureau. I definitely think they can out-shoot the Ranger, but—not criticizing the Army Rangers—but their people can out-shoot Army Rangers. And perhaps, Force Recon in the Marine Corps. I think they’re up there with the more elite organizations. And I think that firearms training was incredible. They took people who couldn’t shoot, and they teach them theory and technique and then work with them and find the faults and get them to correct it to that point. I’ve never seen anything like that in any law enforcement academy or any military training. It was incredible. But the rest of it, there was no lesson plans. Training is always analysis, design, development, implementation where you get up and teach it, and then evaluate it to see if the training took. I didn’t see that in Rockwell’s training program for the Safeguard and Security team force. But eventually to see them as, when Westinghouse took over, they started putting those standards in. And I think Department of Energy did it nationwide. So I think watching that change and transition was exciting. Was great stuff. It was an exciting place to work. And right now they’re tearing down the Plutonium Finishing Plant where I spent, what, 17, 18 years of my life—except for some trips elsewhere. But to see it come down, but then to realize what we achieved there. I was there the day a button caught fire, a plutonium button. That was exciting. Because we were testing out the security system, and—why do we have employees taking off their clothing on camera? What’s going on here? And then call up to building emergency, is something going on inside the plant you kind of should let us know about? And why is the fire department coming? And then watching it go through things, and then eventually watching the cleanup process, stabilizing plutonium, and seeing where that goes. So I’m glad I had the opportunity to come in today to talk a little bit about what it was like to work at Hanford. I remember when he had buses and then we didn’t have buses because they decided we didn’t need them anymore. And then watching the density of vehicles on the highways going up to work onsite. I can remember when they decided that—there’s a four-lane road; Stevens is a four-lane divided highway out to the Site. You know, when you’re doing remediation and you’re constructing the Vit Plant, there’s a lot of trucks and trailers with heavy loads that are in the right-hand lane. So then somebody came up with the bright idea of—and they’re slower-moving. So we’re going to have that traffic in the left-hand lane going northbound, and everyone going, they’re driving the speed limit or those going beyond the speed limit would drive in the right-hand lane. Excuse me? Really? Really. And then there was a thing where we decided to put—you know, how far it is from this place to this place. And we’re going to do it both in the English system and also in metric. Good idea, that makes sense, because a lot of the world is metric. Makes a lot of sense. So then they put the signs up, and they put—the letters are about that high in a 55-mile-and-hour zone. So how close do you have to be to read a sign that’s got letters that are about two inches high, going about 55 miles an hour? Excuse me? [LAUGHTER] And also that’s now—isn’t that kind of like a visual impediment to traffic safety? Franklin: Yeah, seriously. Parr: The other one is right up on Stevens in the 300 Area. You’ve got 300 Area—I can’t remember the name of the street. It comes out and goes onto Stevens—we used to have our own highway system out there, so that’s called Highway 4 South. So the traffic is going west onto a north-south—onto a road that’s in the right-hand side is going north. But you want to turn left and to head back into town. So they put a stop sign on a wooden post right at the stop line. Well, that’s right on the edge of the traffic—it’s right on the traffic lane. So about every week or so, low lights, not well lit, you get weather, so all of a sudden, about every, once a week, you’d see the stop sign about ten meters over with the pole broken off—the big four-by-four wooden post. So I remember one time, I go, jeez, that’s not very bright. So I put in a safety suggestion. So they thanked me for my safety suggestion. Rockwell Hanford gave me a little product worth 50, 60 cents. Thank you! Okay, but we’re not going to do that, and we’ve already considered it, and it’s safe. And I got that, and I was working shift work. So I’m going home about 7:00 in the morning. And there’s the stop sign over there, the sign sheared off again. So all of the sudden—it never get installed again. They painted a stop sign, they painted stop letters, they moved the sign back. [LAUGHTER] But my suggestion wasn’t going to—so that was kind of fun. Franklin: Well, thank you so much, Bob. Parr: Yup. Franklin: I really appreciate you coming in and giving us a slice of it. Parr: You know, thank you for doing this, because the Manhattan Project was such an important piece in our history. And being—I’ve been taking a history course and being a former—retired National Guardsman, and the son of a World War II veteran from the Pacific Theater, and seeing the carnage that was Okinawa, and then realizing what the invasion of Japan would have been. I think that puts it all in perspective. And then the work we did—and for me, as a veteran, the big night was the night the wall came down in Berlin. Because that didn’t only put my weekend job in perspective, but it also put the work we’d done out at Hanford. So I think we—the work they do at the national labs, and when we had a criticality safety lab onsite, the work that they did at those facilities—just incredible. I just wish we could have kept FFTF and done power production there. Beautiful reactor. I mean, it had an availability rate of almost 100%. Oh. So. But it’s all about people. Franklin: Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much. Parr: Well, thank you for having me. Franklin: Yeah. Don’t forget your coffee there. <a href="https://youtu.be/-Tu2YqK6vfU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02:15 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 1100 Area 300 Area 400 Area Fast Flux Test Facility K-West Area N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX Vit Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1980-2010 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1980-2011 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Colonel Matthias Babcock & Wilcox Tom Foley Hillary Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Parr Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Parr conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-17-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 1100 Area 300 Area 400 Area Battelle Cold War Department of Energy DuPont Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford K-West Area Kennewick Manhattan Project Mountain N Reactor Nuclear Regulatory Commission Plutonium Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX Safety Theater Transportation VIT Plant War Washington Public Power Supply System Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc538f9cddd2fe35226bc7f90e5fa53c7.jpg e34dce850b70eb7cdc4fdb568455d93d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F68879a00eec05785241baab005775d87.mp4 b47600b1f0b114df663c92fb3fa1c3d0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Scherpelz Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Scherpelz conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa8b49961531582554e9868f93f7a942a.jpg f8a9132ccd53e3c39c0cee5fdd9e9ca4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4361045435f51aa42f69dde5f08a4ad9.mp4 e3071fd5aef547b0c5009fc5e2bd304e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roderick Coler Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom Hungate: You’re rolling. Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history with Dr. Roderick Coler, retired MD, on June 1st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Dr. Roderick Coler about his experiences as a doctor in the Tri-Cities area during the Hanford time. Roderick Coler: Right. And you can—everybody calls me Rod. Franklin: Rod? Okay, great. Everybody calls me Robert. Coler: Yeah. Robert. Franklin: So, Rod, as an early medical specialist in Kennewick, how did you come to Kennewick as a place to practice? Coler: I heard about Kennewick remotely from patients when I was in the Veterans Administration Hospital Residency Program in Portland. Franklin: In Portland, Oregon? Coler: In Portland, Oregon. Franklin: Okay. Coler: And I was dating a ward secretary by the name of Thelma who later became my wife. She said that we should go where you’re needed. Franklin: Okay. Coler: So when I got a call from Dr. Ralph deBit who was one of the early general practitioners here—he suggested that I drive down and have lunch at the old Kennewick General Hospital. So Thelma and I drove down, but the car stalled when we got to Umatilla. I went out and started hitchhiking so we wouldn’t be late for the lunch. Nobody picked me up. So Thelma said, get behind that bush! [LAUGHTER] And I went and hid behind a piece sagebrush. She went out and stuck up her thumb, and the first car that went by picked us up and took us to the Kennewick General Hospital for lunch and I was on time. My first experience in Kennewick. Looked pretty rustic. But the five general practitioners here needed an internal medical specialist, and I was finishing that specialty. So I was welcomed. They provided me with an office, and the first three months’ free rent. It went smoothly from there on out. I came to practice where I practiced for 58 years. Franklin: 58 years. And that was in 1947? Coler: And that was 1948. Mm-hm. Franklin: Okay. Great. So when you said Kennewick was very rustic, can you kind of elaborate a little more on that? Coler: [LAUGHTER] There was just a main street, Kennewick Avenue, and 1st Avenue. And after that, the avenues weren’t very well traveled. But there were a number of houses around, and it looked like a comfortable place to practice. And the old Kennewick General Hospital certainly needed some medical supervision and a medical specialist. So I was happy to look at this as a place to come. It kept me in the West. I was from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Franklin: Okay. Coler: That is my place of growing up. And I wanted to stay in the West. Franklin: Why is that? Coler: I don’t know. There was a certain sense of adventure when you’re in your 30s and you’ve had three years of service in the Air Force, and you’ve come back, and you want to settle down, and you’re through with your training, but you don’t want the big city, even though Portland is a lovely town. But it would be a slow place for an internist to get started. Franklin: Why is that? Coler: Because so many doctors just stayed. After their training program in Portland, they just stayed on in Portland. Because it felt like home and felt comfortable. But Thelma said, go where you’re needed. So we came down at the invitation of these five general practitioners. And Dr. Ralph deBit is a piece of history in himself. Franklin: Can you—oh, sorry, go ahead. Coler: So we decided then after seeing two or three more places that—Kennewick and the Tri-Cities was the place we wanted to practice. Franklin: Great. What other places did you visit? Coler: Well, I went over on the coast where I ran into three days of straight rain, over on the Portland coast. [LAUGHTER] The Washington coast was desolate. And I found the dry side was much to my liking. Franklin: Interesting. Coler: Mm-hm. Franklin: You mentioned that you’d been three years in the Air Force. So were you a doctor in the Air Force? Coler: No. No, I went into the Air Force as part of weather training. The Air Force was gearing up for a much longer war—this is World War II—gearing up for a much longer war. They wanted to keep a cadre of young men available to train. So they put me in a year of mathematics at University of Washington in St. Louis to study pre-meteorology, which was all mathematics, up through higher numbers. A lot of things that I never would need or use. But then I went out and took six months of weather forecasting, weather observing, and became a weather observer, which was a non-commissioned officer position. So they kept telling me that you would get your rank in the military after you got to your base of work. But I kept being assigned around to training stations and finally I ended up in Coral Gables and had a wonderful time exploring the Everglades, because I only worked eight hours a week out there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Coler: As a weather observer. So I was very happy to have that experience, even though I never was commissioned as an officer, which they had promised me would be at the end of my training. Franklin: Interesting. Great. Coler: I still have specimens that I’ve collected from the Everglades, down there. Snakeskins, different plants. And I attended a course in botany of the Florida peninsula while I was there. And it got me interested in the out-of-doors. Franklin: Interesting. So, returning to your work at Kennewick, what exactly—forgive my ignorance and maybe some of the ignorance of the people watching this later—what is an internalist exactly? Coler: So an internal medical specialist is someone who specializes in the skin and its contents. Franklin: The skin and its contents, okay. Coler: From the standpoint of the diagnosis of diseases and their treatment which are not orthopedic and not surgical. But that includes everything from infectious diseases to degenerative diseases. And it generally doesn’t include childhood diseases, although I saw some very interesting cases. Franklin: Such as? Coler: Such as malaria—in Kennewick. Not from the mosquito biting up here, but the mosquito bite carrying the malaria virus down in Central America, and then the patients coming home and coming down with fever here. Fever, chills and anemia. Franklin: Wow. Coler: And finding the parasite in their blood. Franklin: Wow. Coler: We had a good lab at Kennewick General Hospital. Franklin: So you mentioned early on that you came and you worked with—sorry, can you mention the doctor that brought you up again? Coler: Dr. deBit, Dr. Ralph deBit. Franklin: Ralph deBit. And can you elaborate, maybe, on the state of medicine in Kennewick when you came here in ’58? Coler: In ’58, the five general practitioners were very busy and they wanted an internal medical specialist to refer the difficult or diagnostic problems to. There weren’t too many doctors in those days who were willing to move to the smaller communities. They all seemed to want—the specialists wanted to stay in Portland and Seattle, Spokane. But I was very happy to come to Kennewick, and they were very happy to send me their difficult cases. [LAUGHTER] Because in those days, generalists, or general practitioners as they were called—we don’t have any more today. It’s called family practice today, and it requires a much more rigorous training period than it did in the days of the old GP. But the GPs would take care of something like—would see something like 20 patients a day. And maybe four new patients every day. So they didn’t spend much time with them. If it wasn’t evident what the patient suffered from and what the treatment was going to be, then they were happy to refer the patient to somebody who would deliberate a little more. Franklin: Okay. So how did—did you see patients from Hanford? Coler: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Can you talk a little bit about working with patients who worked at Hanford? Coler: So HEHF, or Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, had a cadre of doctors which saw patients who worked at Hanford. When I came to town, Hanford workers had to go to that doctor first, and then if the problem was elaborate or detailed or difficult, such as active tuberculosis or a desert fungus infection like coccidioidomycosis, then they would send the patient to me. Franklin: You kind of laughed a little when you said that last one. Coler: Well, because that disorder is a fungus infection of the lungs that’s only seen in the Sonoma Valley of California or other desert areas in the United States. Franklin: Wasn’t there an outbreak of that recently up here? They closed a bunch of county parks in Washington? Coler: I’m not aware of that, but may be true. Yeah. Franklin: Okay, interesting. I guess fungus and desert isn’t something that I would assume would go together. Coler: Well, that’s right, because you’re thinking of something that grows in moist areas. Franklin: Right. Coler: Like a toadstool, yeah. Franklin: Right. Coler: But this was a fungus that is blowing in the wind. Franklin: Okay. Coler: And if you pass through and drive through those areas when the wind is blowing that particular fungus in the air, you run a high risk of catching one of those desert fungus disorders. Franklin: I imagine then that they like loose sandy soils. Coler: Yes. Loose sandy soil that blows, yeah. We didn’t have any up here, but they would come in from California. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Coler: Yeah. Franklin: So the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation—can you talk a little bit more about that? Do you know much about its origins, or if it’s still around today? Coler: Well, when the Hanford operation got going, they immediately put in a medical service. They had a superintendent, and they had a cadre of three or four doctors who saw the patients who worked at Hanford. So generally, these were well patients. Generally, they had rashes or they had emotions, or they had injuries from falling, scrapes and wounds, and occasional pneumonia. And sometimes patients would come to work there, because the workforce, remember, during World War II, even at the end of the war, was chosen from people who couldn’t find a job elsewhere, frequently. The country was well-employed, and to find labor and to find the lower jobs, below supervisory jobs at Hanford was difficult. We got patients from the deep South, patients that had migrated in and who sometimes had not been found eligible for work in the war effort elsewhere. Franklin: Okay. Just going to refer to some of your notes here that you brought me. Coler: Mm-hmm, sure. Franklin: So, here we go. I had a question here. So as a part of your 53 years practicing medicine, did you treat families who reported to work at Hanford, and what were your experiences with them and overall feeling towards the work at that site? Coler: Generally, these were healthy patients. Hanford Environmental Health took care of the workers out there, but their families frequently had to seek medical care in the general practitioners and specialists who were out in the community. So we had good surgical help, and we had good diagnostic help. So I was not a pioneer in any sense of the word, but it was interesting, because I knew I was seeing unusual cases that never would be seen by me if I had stayed in the big city. Franklin: Can you—without compromising any personal or medical information, can you talk a little more about some of those unusual cases? Coler: One time I was called up to Kahlotus—I was called up north of Richland to see a woman who was in a stupor. The doctor could not hear a heartbeat. I went up on my afternoon off, on the call, to see her in consultation. Went in to find a woman lying down, weakened, hardly able to talk, and whose heartbeat I couldn’t hear with the stethoscope. I presumed that she had a pericardial effusion. That is, fluid was impacting—fluid in the heart sac was impacting the heartbeat and preventing the heartbeat from being heard, and from being effective in creating circulation by the heart. So I asked for a trocar, which is a big needle, and as I was about to insert it under the ribs, I felt something hard poking me on the other side. I looked down and it was a gun. And her husband was there in the emergency room, and he said, if she dies, you die. She was already very weakened and very—looked like she was on her way into shock and dying. And I plunged the needle through there with a little Novocain, and drained the fluid from the heart sac. And the heart began to beat again and the blood pressure came up and the pulse rate came down, and she woke up. The husband put his gun away. But those were the wild West days. Franklin: Wow. Coler: This was in the Prosser Hospital Emergency Room. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] So that’s one. But I have many. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Please. Coler: Another one was—a patient ran in the front door of the old Kennewick General Hospital—didn’t wait to go through registration. Ran up the stairs and jumped into a bed and said, call Dr. Coler, call Dr. Coler. So the nurse called me and said they had this hyper excitable patient with a pulse rate of 160 and tremulous and pale and sweating, and we don’t know what’s wrong with him, but he jumped into bed and said to call you. So my office was across the street from the old Kennewick General Hospital. So I ran over there, ran upstairs to find the patient exactly as the nurse described. I figured that the only thing that would do that was that he was on some kind of a stimulant, metamphetamine, but in those days we didn’t have that problem. Or, he had a rare, very rare tumor of the adrenal glands, which was secreting too much adrenaline. Now, the nurse laughed at me, because she knew from her medical studies in nursing that nobody ever sees a case like that. I mean, there’s one per state per every ten years in the United States. [LAUGHTER] I mean, it’s rare. But I drew blood from the—I had the laboratory draw blood for the tests. And then I gave him an antidote for epinephrine. And his pulse rate came down, and he quieted down. We went to x-ray, saw the outline of a tumor near the adrenal gland. And where the adrenal gland would be near the kidney. And I got Bobby Luxon—Robert Luxon, who was a very dashing surgeon in town, to see him. And they operated on him here and removed the biggest adrenaline-secreting tumor that had ever been seen in the state of Washington, according to University of Washington records. Franklin: Wow. Coler: So that was an interesting case. Franklin: How big was the— Coler: It was fist-sized. Franklin: Wow. Coler: A fist-sized tumor. Franklin: That’s amazing. Coler: Now, somebody would say, well, how did it get that big without having symptoms in the months leading up to it? Well, in the months leading up to it, he didn’t squeeze it to put the adrenaline into the blood stream all at one time. He was being treated for hypertension, and spurts of hypertension, but nobody suspected when he came to me—or when the nurse called me to see him—that he could have an adrenaline tumor. Rare. Franklin: Yeah, sounds like it. That’s really—that’s really amazing. Any other interesting stories? Coler: Interesting cases? Franklin: Yeah. Coler: Let’s see. Something unusual was happening every three or four months in the practice. But now that’s kind of faded away. Except for the bizarre anemias—pernicious anemia—saw two cases the first month that I came to town. And I was amazed, because I thought, this is a center for pernicious anemia. Or maybe it has something to do with Hanford radiation. But it was simply that Dr. deBit had saved up two cases to wait ‘til I came to town, and then he sent them to me to make me think that this was a haven of unlikely and unreasonable diagnoses. [LAUGHTER] [W. E. JOHNSON<a>[EM1]</a> ] Franklin: Part of—one of these points in your notes here mentions W. E. Johnson, who worked for GE and then was the Atomic Energy Commissioner. We actually have a collection of his files on the project. Coler: Mm-hm. Franklin: So I think it’d be great if you could talk about this bit here about W. E. Johnson. Coler: He was a much-respected administrator. But I saw him in his decline. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, it says here he suffered from progressive dementia? Coler: Yeah, he had a progressive dementia problem, yeah. He one time got on his horse and rode out across the country, not knowing where he was or how far he had gone. Maybe after he had gone about seven or eight miles, he was lost. Didn’t know where he was. So he simply had the good sense to put the reins down on the horse’s neck and let the horse go back to the barn for feeding and rest, and take W. E. Johnson with him back to the ranch. But they had a ranch up north of Richland. Franklin: Mm-hm. Yeah, I’ve seen pictures of that ranch. I’d heard of his love for horses, but I had not heard of that particular story. Coler: Mm-hm. Franklin: Did you ever see him as a patient or— Coler: Yes, yeah. I saw W. E. Johnson as a patient on a regular basis at the end of his career. Franklin: Okay. And that would have been when he was beginning to suffer from progressive dementia. Coler: Yes, dementia. And we tried some medicines that were popular at that time, but nothing helped. Yeah. Franklin<a>[EM2]</a> : So you raised your family. Did you have children when you came to Kennewick? Coler: No. Franklin: Okay. Coler: No, I was engaged to Thelma Cook from Portland. We were married soon after I came to Kennewick. Went back to Portland, had a nice wedding—colorful wedding, nice family. Then she and I settled in to Kennewick and she, being a secretary, managed the secretarial services of my office. And without that, I probably would have gone broke. [LAUGHTER] Working 18 hours a day, gone broke. But she was a—she had a good business head and made the practice pay. We raised four children here. I have three daughters in Portland, and I have Clark Coler, who is chief of staff at the big hospital in Portland. Franklin: Oh, okay. Coler: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: So what was it like—I guess sometimes people talk or you hear about kind of the shadow of Hanford over the Tri-Cities. What was it like to raise a family in—being kind of somewhat connected, seeing Hanford workers, but raising a family in these communities in the Cold War? Were there any events, or anything that was unique to the Tri-Cities that kind of stands out to you? Coler: No, it was a good rural area to raise children. They were well-behaved, and joined the clubs at the high school. And came up through the system here. They’re all quite successful. I’m very proud of three daughters, employed and married in Portland, and Clark, at the Swedish Hospital in Seattle. Franklin: Oh, great. That’s wonderful. How much—seeing Hanford patients, you must have had some idea of the work at Hanford. Did you have a pretty good idea of what was happening at Hanford? Or what was your knowledge and your thoughts and opinions about the work at Hanford? Coler: When we tried to recruit doctors to come to the Tri-Cities, they knew that the radiation was surveyed, and patients would be—and people would be safe here. But the wives had this abject fear of radiation. They didn’t want to raise their children within 50 miles [LAUGHTER] of a reactor, because they had heard that you could have babies with small heads or you could have deformities, and that it would be a terrible place to raise a family. I remember having two or three medical doctors and their families and their wives come over, and I would take them on a tour of the Kennewick General Hospital to recruit doctors to come here. And the doctors were very enthusiastic. Over luncheon, they were talking about how interested they would be in coming—a growing community, and practicing medicine here. And we were able to supply them with offices and get them started, even though there weren’t any clinics—everybody was in private practice. This was before the Richland Clinic accumulated their staff from the existing doctors in Richland. But the wives were afraid of radiation. One time, when I had three doctors and their wives come over from Seattle to see about moving here to practice when they got through with their training, a windstorm came up and we had a dust storm off the Horse Heaven Hills. And in those days we had dust storms spring and fall. But it was such a beautiful clear day when we began, and by the time we were finished with the meal, you couldn’t see 40 feet outside the window! [LAUGHTER] Because of the blowing dust. I got thank-you letters from those doctors—those three doctors, but I knew that their wives had canceled any possibility of their coming. Franklin: Kind of an echo of the termination winds— Coler: Yes, the termination winds, right. Franklin: Wow. That’s interesting to hear about that so much later. Coler: Yes. Franklin: I like to ask about events—big events that happened in the Tri-Cities. And one that always seems to—usually left an imprint on people’s minds was President Kennedy’s visit in 1963. Did you—were you able to go see President Kennedy, or did you hear about the visit? Coler: Yeah, I heard about the visit, but I was on duty in the emergency room that day. And we had so many visitors who came and needed help with their heat exhaustion that I was busy in the emergency room and didn’t get out to Hanford to see him. Franklin: Oh, okay. Coler: But I was well aware of his presence. Franklin: Right. Coler: And it was in the newspaper. Of course, a big picture of Kennedy. Franklin: And his presence probably caused you some extra work then. Coler: Yes. People that weren’t used to the heat just filled the emergency rooms when we had a special day, such as the boat races. When we had the boat races, people would come from out of town and they weren’t prepared for our heat. Franklin: Oh. And so that would be kind of a yearly— Coler: Yes. Franklin: A yearly influx. Coler: So we’d have two doctors on-call for the emergency room. Franklin: Okay, makes sense. I see here that you have left your mark at the Kennewick General Hospital in terms of a medical center in your name? Coler: Yes. Franklin: Can you tell me a little about that? Coler: They named the first medical center where doctors could practice the deBit Building. That was a place where doctors could come right out of training and, without sinking a lot of money into building or renting an office, they could be put to work and see how they liked it. The organization, the hospital, would then benefit from them admitting their patients who needed to be hospitalized into that institution, as well as having staff meetings and having all of the positions filled for the hospital board. The hospital board at Kennewick General was made up of non-hospital people. But I served on it for a number of years and could advise them on medical matters. Franklin: Okay. And I see that you also—there’s also a Rod Coler Center for Senior Health— Coler: Yes. Franklin: At Trios as well? Coler: Yeah, yeah. So they named that building after me simply because I was here a long time, and I’m still around. Franklin: Right! [LAUGHTER] Well, I imagine it would have something to do with the quality of work that you performed as well. Coler: Uh-huh. Franklin: In some of my preliminary notes here, it talks about the poor—you’ve talked a bit about the excellence of deBit and a couple other doctors that you worked with, but I’ve also heard that there was, in general, kind of a poor standard of medical care in the area when you arrived. Coler: Yes. Franklin: Was that to do— Coler: This had to do with surgery. We had a surgical problem at Kennewick General. It was quite evident soon after I came to town and began to read charts and look at records and do consultations that the surgical services were poor and sometimes not very well diagnosed and treated. So I predicted that the Kennewick General Hospital would close by the state reviewing our records at Kennewick General if we didn’t do something about that. So Dr. deBit, again, made me chairman of a committee to go through the charts of all the doctors for the previous couple of years. It was quite evident who was causing the mayhem at Kennewick General Hospital. [LAUGHTER] He was soon moved on. Franklin: Ah. Coler: In those days, you couldn’t take away his license to practice, because you would be sued for preventing somebody from working—from interfering with work. We didn’t want a lawsuit against us. So we were able to move him along. But each hospital that looked into the records of that particular surgeon refused to take him, too. So he actually had to retire. Franklin: I see. Coler: Yeah. Franklin: Kind of a forced retirement. Coler: Yeah, a forced retirement. Franklin: Interesting. Coler: But we had—in Robert Luxon, who came to town about a year or two after I did, he was an excellent diagnostician for surgical conditions and also an excellent surgeon. So our reputation was saved, and Kennewick General went on to become quite a good surgical center and referral center for surgery. As was Richland, and Pasco. Dr. Ray Rose in Pasco was an excellent surgeon and diagnostic man. He’s passed now. He’s gone. But he was a close friend of mine and we did many mountain hikes together. Franklin: That’s great. I guess the last thing I’d like to ask you about is I see that you live in a historic Kennewick home. Can you maybe talk a little bit about your home and its importance in the history of Kennewick? Coler: The home on Canal Drive was built out of town of Kennewick in 1914. And was the home of a gentleman who was a salesman and trader. He built his home. And when my wife spotted that house, we were living—when we were married and were living downtown Kennewick, we drove by it one day and she says, turn in here. And I said, why? She said, just do it. Turn in here. So I turned in the road that led across the field that came to the old house on Canal Drive. It was just west of Yelm Street—Yelm, Y-E-L-M. It sat by itself; there were no other houses when it was built out west of that. But she spotted that old home and we pulled in and I went to the door and knocked on the door, thinking this is crazy. You just don’t knock on a door and ask somebody who comes to the door, do they want to sell their house. That’s not the way it’s done! [LAUGHTER] She said, I want to live in that house! Knocked on the door, an old man came to the door, and when I asked him he said, yes. He said, in two months I need to move to Chicago to be near my children, and I would be very happy to sell you this house. At that time, he thought that maybe the house might be worth $20,000. This would be with—this was three acres of land on Canal Drive and an old house that had three bedrooms, and a second floor, and a large kitchen which most farm houses did not have in those days. When that house was built in the 19-teens, 1915, 1914, kitchens were small. But that house had a generous kitchen. My wife fell in love with that house. So when we came back to talk to that man, he had turned it over to a realtor. And now the price was $40,000. Franklin: Ooh. Coler: [LAUGHTER] And he was selling—but it took me a long time to pay that off. Yeah. We had to borrow the money and pay the bank to buy the house. But raised four children in that house now. Franklin: And you said— Coler: And we were the third owner. Franklin: Okay. And you still live in the house today? Coler: We still live in that house today. Franklin: I bet it’s worth a bit more than $40,000. Coler: Yes. Well, the land is. Franklin: Yes. Coler: Now, several people said—oh, it’s a beautiful place overlooking the Columbia River and on a knoll above Canal—above the river, and above the park. We would need to—many people say that they would take down the house and build an apartment building there on it. Because it’s right next to the apartment buildings at Yelm Street. But we like that old location—I do, and I don’t know what my children will do with it when I’m gone. So I’m 91. My father lived to 101. So I have a chance to go on for a few more years. Franklin: Yes, you do. Coler: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, Rod, thank you so much. This has been a great interview and I’ve really enjoyed talking with you. Coler: You’re welcome, Robert. I really enjoyed this myself. Thank you. Franklin: Great. Thank you. <div> <div> <div> <a>[EM1]</a>Begin sensitive patient information about W. E. Johnson. </div> </div> <div> <div> <a>[EM2]</a>End W. E. Johnson </div> </div> </div> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:44:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2006 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Thelma Dr. Ralph deBit Robert Luxon Clark Coler Kennedy Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roderick Coler Description An account of the resource An interview with Roderick Coler conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06-01-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-29-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Atomic Energy Commission Clinic Cold War Cook Hanford injuries Kennedy Kennewick River Street War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2ec1506d174ea046db6843f0eaa6c1bc.JPG 2764bff7fb33c346ce02b07d1ae6b487 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roger McClellan Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Roger McClellan on September 2nd, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Roger about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. So, Roger, best place to begin is the beginning. So, when and where were you born? Roger McClellan: I was born in Tracy, Minnesota, out in the prairies of southwestern Minnesota. Tracy, a little town of 3,000 people. My father was a blue collar worker. My mother came from an agricultural family. They were part of a generation in some ways contributed to but also, their lives were substantially influenced by World War II. They, in some ways, were saved economically. So my father went away in 1942 and I would faithfully write every Sunday evening to him at an APO address in New York, and wonder where he was. In summer ’43, he came home and said, hell, I was up in Canada building an air base on Hudson Bay, Churchill. Up with the polar bears and the Eskimos. And got another job at Hanford Engineering Works, Pasco, Washington. So in two weeks, I’m going to catch the train and be off. And maybe if I can find a place to live, your mom will come out and join me. Franklin: So—sorry—what year were you born? McClellan: 1937. January 5, 1937. Franklin: And do you remember when your father left for HEW? McClellan: Well, he, as I said, he spent ’42 and ’43 in Canada working on an air base. That construction company ended up being engaged at Hanford. So he came out in ’43, in the summer, and lived at Hanford, the construction town. My mother soon joined him when they found a small trailer they could live in. She worked in the commissary at Hanford. And then in the summer of 1944, they came back to Minnesota. My brother and I had lived with our grandparents on a farm for a year, and my sister with an aunt. So we got on the train and headed out to the state of Washington on a new adventure in the summer of 1944. Franklin: Wow. McClellan: And then that fall—we lived for the summer in Sunnyside, Washington. I remember well an eight-plex apartment, if you will. Pretty exciting. You’d go to the end of our street, take a right, go a half mile, and there was an honest-to-God Indian teepee with an Indian that lived in it. That was pretty exciting for young kids. Franklin: I bet. Was that one of the Navy homes? McClellan: No, that was a part of the Hanford complex, that they had built some housing in outlying areas while they were constructing new homes in Richland. So near the end of August, my father came home one day and said, hey, they finished a new group of houses in Richland, and we’re going to be moving down next week or two. Neighbors would drive us down, I’m going to come in off of graveyard shift and I’ll be at our new home, and you can meet me there. Franklin: And what kind of home was it? McClellan: Well, we said, well, where is it? He said, well, it’s a three-bedroom prefabricated house, a so-called prefab. Franklin: Oh, okay. McClellan: And it’s on 1809 McClellan Street. And my kid brother and I jumped up and down and said, gee, on our own street! [LAUGHTER] So we later learned that, you know, many of the streets were named for individuals in the Corps of Engineers. So McClellan was in the Corps of Engineers, a one-block-long street, up in the—I guess, what? Southwest side of Richland. Franklin: Yeah. I live a stone’s throw away from—I live on Stanton. McClellan: Yeah, okay. Franklin: In a two-bedroom prefab. McClellan: So we did just as he said. The neighbors drove us down and we got to the new house. The door was open, we went in, and there was my dad, flaked out in the bed. He’d come home from graveyard shift and welcomed us to our new home. Franklin: Are you related to General—is there any family relation to General McClellan? McClellan: Well, only speculation. Probably one of my more noteworthy traits is procrastination. And as you may recall, General McClellan had some problems with procrastination. Franklin: Yeah, as a US historian, I’m very well-versed in—[LAUGHTER] Especially the first three years of the Civil War. Yes, he certainly was. McClellan: And he also liked the libation, and I think we shared a similar taste there. Franklin: And luster. [LAUGHTER] McClellan: But he was short of stature; I’m tall of stature. Franklin: Yeah, he looked good on a horse. McClellan: But I don’t know. I’ve done a little bit of digging and I found, you know, a cluster of McClellans there in Kirkcudbright in Scotland. We actually have a Castle MacLellan. It’s more of a large manor house than a castle. But interesting. Franklin: What did your father do at the Hanford Site? McClellan: Well, my father initially worked in construction and then very quickly as they started to assemble the operational workforce, he went to work as a patrolman. You know, part of the, what today we call, security force. Of course, worked for DuPont. He moved quickly from there into what was called the separations department or operation. That was the unit that we learned later was involved in separating out the product, plutonium, from the irradiated fuel elements containing uranium. So he spent most of his career, actually, working in the PUREX facility. Franklin: Oh, okay. McClellan: Earlier he had some time in the bismuth phosphate separation plant. And then in the RADOX and then PUREX was ultimately the big workhorse separations facility for the Hanford operations. Franklin: And how long did your father work at Hanford for? McClellan: Well, for his total life then. I think he passed away age 62. My mother, very soon after we came to Richland, went to work in the food services facility at Marcus Whitman Elementary School, which was where we were going to school. So I do remember in the third grade, seeing my mom in the cafeteria as we went through and picked up our lunches. She was a very ambitious lady, very intelligent. She got her shorthand and typing in quick order and then went to work and became the secretary of the principal of Columbia High School. She always commented she was pleased that one of the students in the class, I think of 1948, a noteworthy graduate was Gene Conley. The trivia question is, who is one of the athletes that played for two different sports teams in terms of major sports? And that’s Gene Conley, Col High graduate who played for the Boston Red Sox and the Boston Celtics, and earlier here was a student at Washington State University. Franklin: Wow, interesting. McClellan: So my mother spent basically her career as a professional administrator. Franklin: Did she work at Hanford at all? McClellan: No, she really always kind of focused on wanting her family. Franklin: Right. McClellan: And she really didn’t want that extra travel time. So she worked for a period of time at the United Way or Community Chest, and then back into the school system and was the administrative assistant or secretary to a number of principals in different schools in the Richland school system. Franklin: So, tell me about growing up in Richland in a government town, and in a prefab, and how that-- McClellan: Well, I think growing up and—obviously, growing up is a unique experience. [LAUGHTER] For everyone. But we had come from a small town in Minnesota. Everybody knew everybody else. Everybody was from there. Franklin: Right. McClellan: Many of them had two, three, four generations living in the area. Coming to Richland was totally different environment. Everyone was from somewhere else. There were a number of people from Utah, a number of people from Colorado, Denver. Turns out all of those were connections back to DuPont, and DuPont’s operation of facilities in those areas. And there were quite a number from the Midwest and a few from Montana. Areas where there was not a lot of industrial activity. People could be recruited. Like my father, in terms of married, three children, why, he was lower down in the draft order. So, that was prototypical of many of the people. My classmates would be families of two, three, four, five kids and their fathers, in some case were blue collar workers, in some cases were engineers. New kinds of professionals that I never had experience with, even as a little kid, and later when I’d spend summers with my grandparents on the farm in Minnesota. Yeah, the professionals we came in contact with were our family doctor, the farm veterinarian, the lawyer, the banker. So Richland, one of the interesting aspects was the extent to—as a young kid I had fellow students whose fathers were engineers or chemists. In fact, one of my classmates, class of 1954 from Columbia High School, his father was W.E. Johnson. Franklin: Oh! McClellan: He was the top guy running Hanford for many years for the General Electric Company. Franklin: Yeah. McClellan: The other thing that’s unique is that no one owned their own home. Franklin: Right. McClellan: You rented your home. DuPont left soon after the war ended. DuPont had been brought in because they were really a unique company. Not only were they large, but they, because of the nature of their business, producing explosives, they were in the business of designing, building, and operating facilities. That was a unique set of activities. So, as I say, you’re working with building and manufacturing explosives. You want to know that your facility— Franklin: Right, and I imagine, too, that there’s a culture of safety in DuPont in dealing with such— McClellan: Oh, absolutely. Franklin: When your product is explosive and— McClellan: Yeah. And many years later I would actually have interactions professionally in terms of DuPont, and that safety culture was present and continues today. But that was also present at Hanford. And then that ability, as I say, to make modifications in the design as new information came available. Franklin: And do that in-house, too. McClellan: Yeah, that was all done in-house. Then we euphemistically said that changed from DuPont to Generous Electric. General Electric was the prime contractor, and sometimes we’d refer to them as Generous Electric. Of course, they operated on a pass-through basis. It was federal dollars. That’s the other thing I think unique in terms of Richland and Richland school systems. There was no private property. So there was no private tax base. So the dollars for the Richland schools flowed through, let’s say, line of dollars that came from Washington in terms of appropriation—authorization and appropriations, and were ultimately administered by the Richland Operations Office of the Atomic Energy Commission. So if you’re in the Richland Operations Office and you’re involved in overseeing the expenditure of dollars, your kids are going to the Richland schools, you’re certainly not going to slice some dollars off the budget for School District 400, Richland. Your kids are going to be impacted. So the schools were, quite frankly, extraordinary quality. I don’t think I fully appreciated that at the time. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I don’t think any of us do at the time. McClellan: Yeah. So as I told someone, even recently, you know, I’m still working off the vapor left in the fuel tank that they started to fill when I went to Marcus Whitman, then Carmichael, and Col High, and then headed off to Washington State University. Franklin: Wow. What else can you say about growing up in Richland that might be different from a lot of other people’s experiences in a normal— McClellan: Well, I think at that time, in Richland, there was an element of kind of the long hand of Washington in planning communities. There was an interesting intersection of class, if you will, more based on, are you an hourly worker or are you a monthly payroll? So-called non-exempt and exempt payroll. And there was a recognition that there was an element of status associated with education. But overlaying that, at the intersection was the fact that when we moved from 1809 McClellan Street to 1122 Perkins, we lived in a B house. Now, that’s one of the things that’s a little different. I mean, the houses had alpha-numbers on them. A houses, B houses, one-, two-, three-bedroom prefabs. So a B house was a duplex, two bedrooms on each end. But on Perkins Street, we could look across the street and there were two L houses. Those were two-story and four bedrooms upstairs; living room, dining room, kitchen downstairs. They were pretty spiffy. So here you have this strange junction of somebody who was an hourly worker was not at first bat going to be assigned an L house to live in. Franklin: Right. McClellan: You were a manager. The manager that lived across the street, ultimately, would become the chief engineer for the Hanford Project. That was Oren H. Pilkey, P-I-L-K-E-Y. A senior. And he was an engineer. Grew up in Texas, trained as an engineer at Texas A&M, and then gone off to work for Chicago Bridge and Ironworks. Had a lot of experience. So I remember well—you know, I’m kind of a tall, even in those days, skinny kid, and I was playing out in the front yard, and I saw this black Ford sedan drive in to the L house that had recently become vacant, and out hopped four people. They weren’t too unusual, except they were short of stature. The two adults were about five-foot-four, and the kids were under five-foot. We soon became good friends. Ultimately, Oren Pilkey was one of my scout masters and a mentor. Franklin: Oh, okay. McClellan: He encouraged me in terms of mathematics, engineering, physical sciences. A love and appreciation for the outdoors. But I did many Sunday afternoon kind of engineering, or learning experiences in his study at his home. I remember doing one of those. It was a calculation of pressure in a large tank, what the pressure would be involved in lifting the lid on the large tank. Only many years later did I learn that was the double-walled steel tanks at Hanford that he was overseeing developing. On that particular occasion, I actually could best his son, who was my classmate in high school, Walter Pilkey. Walter would go on to become a very distinguished engineer and professor of Engineering Science at the University of Virginia. His older brother, who was my good friend also, Oren Pilkey, Junior, went on and very distinguished career in marine geology, was a Washington Duke professor of geology at Duke University. So, I think that kind of segueways back in terms of the educational environment. I think there was a lot of inspiration, if you will. As a young kid you could see people who were successful, and you soon recognized success was tied to education. Franklin: Right, I suppose it’s knowing so many people from so many different places. I guess I could imagine maybe that people in Richland were aware of a wider world than, say, someone in a small town in Minnesota or Arkansas might be. McClellan: Well, I think that’s true. And I think they each brought their own culture. I mean, I recall our next door neighbors in Sunnyside. They were from Oklahoma. Even as a seven-year-old, I kind of knew a bit about the Dust Bowl and whatever, and the Okies. I was admonished by my parents, we’re not supposed to call them Okies. That’s a little bit of a derogatory term. But I still remember an experience, going with my mother, and she of course had her troop of three kids. I was seven, my brother was five-and-a-half and my sister was four, and we were going downtown Sunnyside to mail some packages and shopping. The lady next door had her troop of three kids about the same age, except she had a newborn baby. So we went into the Sunnyside post office and mailed our packages and came out, and the baby started to squall. And so the lady sat on the steps of the post office in Sunnyside and opened her blouse and started to nurse her baby. Well, that was not quite what you would expect in Tracy, Minnesota. Little bit different culture. So you had different cultures. Again, my friends, the Pilkeys, their mother had gone to Hunter College in New York. Very well-educated lady. We would very frequently take trips to the public library on Sunday afternoon to pick up a new collection of books. If you went to her home, why, there’d be a book on almost every table. She was an avid reader. And that encouraged us to do the same. Franklin: That’s very interesting—sorry. Go ahead. McClellan: Well, so, I think the difference in everybody being from somewhere else was something that kind of pulled things apart, in terms of a community. On the other hand, the fact that everybody was in some way involved with Hanford brought people together. And overlaying that, in those days—the late ‘40s—was the element of secrecy. You didn’t really know what was going on. Things were compartmentalized. Many years later, I was taking a graduate course at what was then the WSU Joint Graduate Center. In a sense a predecessor of— Franklin: Right, pretty much right here. McClellan: WSU. So the individual teaching that was Doctor Lyle Swindeman, who was an environmental scientist at the Hanford Laboratories. And we were going through each of the different AEC facilities around the country: Oak Ridge, Los Alamos, Shipping Port—whatever—as to what they did, how they managed environmental activities. It was really rather remarkable in terms of the early 1960s, when I took that. One of them we focused on, of course, was Hanford. That particular evening, we had a flow chart for the PUREX facility. I came home and I was doing some homework at the table. My father came home from a swing shift and sat down with a cup of coffee, and we’re chatting and looking at what I’m doing. And he said, what the hell are you doing? Those are classified! [LAUGHTER] I said, no, no, look up there. It’s unclassified. He said, no, I think that’s classified. That’s what we’re doing all the time. So there was this little bit of a conflict there. He was not absolutely convinced that I had the unclassified version of the flow documents for the PUREX facility. Franklin: Well, that makes sense, too, right, because he would have come to Hanford during World War II when secrecy was paramount. I mean— McClellan: Oh! Franklin: If you said anything about your job, you could easily be on the next train out. McClellan: Oh, absolutely. And the other is elements—I recently had a conversation with some people in terms of plutonium workers at Hanford, which my father was one of those. Ironically, many years later, I would be studying plutonium. I was involved in the first meeting that gave rise to the US Transuranium and Uranium Registry. My father was enrolled in that. And I continue today to have an interest in plutonium toxicity and what we do to protect the workers, which, in my opinion, was remarkable in terms of at Hanford. Part of that is you have a bioassay program. Well, what’s bioassay? One of the elements of the bioassay program is that you collect samples of urine periodically, you analyze them for radioactivity, and then using very sophisticated models, go back and project—estimate—what exposures an individual may have in terms of internal deposition. Well, it was classified as to what people did, but now I can understand, if I had just gone down the street and taken a look at which addresses had a gray box on the front doorstep, which was the urine samples that were being collected, I could have identified who were the prospective plutonium workers at Hanford. I don’t know if the Soviets had anybody doing those street checks in Richland or not, but they could have identified who were the plutonium workers pretty readily. Franklin: Interesting. I just wanted to come back to something, and say that it’s remarkable to hear you talk about the impact of the mixed income neighborhood you lived in, and that you identified that we lived in this mixed income neighborhood from the B house next to the L. Because that was, as you might know, that was Pherson—Albin Pherson—the man who designed the Richland village. That was his idea. That was one of the things he pushed through, was having mixed income neighborhoods, so that you didn’t have a total segregation of people by class. McClellan: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: It’s interesting to hear your views on that and how that affected you. McClellan: Yeah. No, there was that element of kind of a utopian plan community approach. I don’t want to go too far on it. There’s a book out there, it’s got a corruption of the word plutonium in it, written by an individual who puts herself forward as an academic historian. I’m not certain where she got her degree, what her credentials, but I can tell you the book is filled with hogwash, as my grandfather would say. Absolute, unvarnished hogwash. I don’t know where she got a lot of her information—it’s misinformation, as she tries to contrast and compare Richland, the Hanford Site, with Mayak in the Soviet Union. I’ve studied both of those; I know both of them quite well. And I also know the outcomes, in terms of health of workers at both those sites. She’s totally off base. I always like to call that to people’s attention. They say, have you read the book in its entirety? I say, I’ve read pieces of it, but I really don’t want to waste my money buying it. Franklin: I see. So, you graduated in ’54, correct? From Columbia High. McClellan: Right. Franklin: And then you went to WSC. McClellan: Right. Franklin: So what did you go to study at— McClellan: Well, we have to back up a ways. Franklin: Oh, okay, let’s do that. McClellan: There’s an interesting event that occurred. I’m going to be a little bit vague in this because I may not remember the specific dates. But 1948—using the royal we—the US detected airborne radioactivity on the west coast of the USA. That was not surprising; we knew that the Soviets were building a copycat facility to Hanford. When we detected radioactivity in the air, specifically radioiodine, iodine-131, that was a very good—not just clue—but we knew they were processing radioactive fuel. Franklin: I’ve heard that their first facility was almost an exact copy of the one in the 300 Area, except instead of being horizontal, it was vertical. Do you know anything about— McClellan: I’m not really knowledgeable of the absolute details of theirs, but again, the key element is that what they were doing is they were taking refined uranium fuel— Franklin: Right. McClellan: --creating a reaction, in terms of neutrons and producing plutonium-239. Franklin: Right. We knew they were doing the same thing that we were doing. McClellan: Exactly. And when we detected radioiodine in the air, we knew they were processing that fuel. Now, the key is how much plutonium were they producing? That’s what we really wanted to know. And somebody said, well, gee, they’re doing just what we did at Hanford. They’re processing green fuel. Well, what do we mean by green fuel? Green fuel is freshly irradiated uranium oxide fuel with plutonium in it. And were now, rather than letting that cool down for a period of time, so the short live radionuclides decay off, were processing it almost immediately because we want the plutonium. That’s what happened in terms of Hanford when the first processing, I think late in 1944, early 1945, to produce plutonium to go to Los Alamos. So, somebody said, well, gee, if we know there’s x radioiodine in the air, what we want to know is y amount of plutonium. Well, why don’t we just repeat that big experiment? So that was Operation Green Run. That was the code name for what would ultimately be the largest—to my knowledge—release of radioactivity from the Hanford Operations. A planned experiment that went astray. They took the freshly irradiated green fuel, chopped it, added the nitric acid. I have reason to go back through the dates—my father was probably involved in that crew. And then the radioiodine started to come out the stack. But Mother Nature didn’t cooperate. We had a major meteorological inversion, and, basically, fumigated, quote, the Inland Empire with short-lived iodine-131. It has an eight-day half-life. That would create controversy over whether there were ill effects related to that. As it turned out, in terms of those releases—that was highly classified—but it led to a real push in further work at Hanford on radioiodine. They started a major study. That study involved feeding radioactive iodine to sheep each day. And along the way, they decided, gee, you know we always have this possibility of exposures on the site. Why don’t we maintain an offsite flock of control sheep? Ah, that sounds like a good idea. Who could do that? Well, gee, why don’t we have the Richland schools do that? I can’t go through all the details, but I’m reasonably certain there were discussions at rather high levels. Rather surprisingly, the Richland School District started a vocational agriculture program. I was one of the early students in that program. The school farm was located right across the road from where the WSU Tri-Cities campus is located today. Franklin: Oh, right. McClellan: We had a large tract of land, and in fact, if you were enterprising as I was, you could sublease a piece of that land. I actually had the sublease on the ten acres right at the corner of Jadwin across from the WSU campus where I grew corn and alfalfa for four years that I was in high school. I also had several orchards and a vineyard for two years. But that school farm maintained the offsite control sheep for the big Hanford radioiodine and thyroid cancer study that was being conducted. What was particularly important out of that is one of the people that WSU recruited was Leo K. Bustad. Leo K. Bustad was a veterinarian. He had been a distinguished military veteran. Had spent a significant portion of his military time in World War II in German prisoner of war camp, which substantially influenced him. He came back to WSU and pursued a master’s degree in nutrition and a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree. When he received the DVM and the nutrition degree, he was an ideal candidate to recruit to Hanford for involvement in the studies on radiation effects. I first, then, met Leo Bustad when he was a Hanford scientist and periodically would stop by the school farm and check on the status of those offsite control sheep. So, he encouraged me in terms of veterinary medicine. My friend, Oren Pilkey, across the street encouraged me in engineering. When I headed off to WSU—or WSC—1954, I actually enrolled as an engineering student. I took engineering. I took economics. I took pre-veterinary medicine. And then I decided to go down the pathway of veterinary medicine. That led me, then, to seek summer employment. [LAUGHTER] And so I was employed as a student at Hanford for three years—’57, ’58, ’59. And then Leo twisted my arm to come back as a full-time scientist in 1960, when I received my Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree. [37:40] Franklin: Wow. We should note that Bustad is also one of the most well-known or prodigious WSU alumni in terms of his contributions to veterinary medicine and, you know, there’s an entire hall named after him on campus. McClellan: Well, Leo is a wonderful remarkable individual. I can relate many, many stories with regard to Leo. But one of those—I’d just finished what was probably my first major scientific manuscript on the metabolism of strontium-90. Strontium-90 is an alkaline earth element. Behaves very much like calcium. So it’s readily absorbed in the GI tract, goes to the skeleton. Radio strontium, strontium-90, is a beta emitter, radiates then the bone and the bone marrow. So you’re concerned for those effects. So we were studying strontium-90 in miniature pigs. So I had finished this manuscript on metabolism of strontium-90 and gave it to Leo to review. Leo said, I’ll read through it tonight, come back tomorrow, and we can talk about it. So I came in the next day, and he said, well, this is really good. But there’s kind of a little bit of a problem with a few aspects. I said, oh, what’s that? He said, well, rather surprised there’s only one author. I knew, uh-oh. Boy, I goofed. I said, oh, well, this was just a draft, Leo. He said, well, I hope so. I thought I had quite a bit to do with the design of that experiment. I said, what else? He said, well, it’s got some statistics in here. You and I aren’t statisticians. Maybe we ought to have somebody else review this. I said, who do you have in mind? And he said, Carl. Turns out that he was sort of the top statistician at Hanford. I said, we don’t to waste his time then. He said, oh, I’ve already called him up. He’s expecting you in his office at 300 Area at 4:00. And he said, we’ll have to have it wrapped up by 7:00 because I’m going to be home for dinner at 7:30. Sure enough, I went in and we spent three hours—a wonderful experience. Very junior scientist and here’s one of the leading statisticians in the world, in fact. So I said, what else? And he said, well, we need some good editorial advice? I said, well, what are you thinking about? He said, well, what about Phil Abelson? I said, Phil Abelson, the editor of Science magazine? And he said, yeah! I said, well, we’re going to need some connections there, Leo. He says, we got them. He’s a Cougar! He picked up the phone and called Phil Abelson. And introduced me to Phil on the phone. And that was the beginning of a lifetime association that I had with Phil Abelson. Franklin: Who also has a building named after him on campus. McClellan: Yeah. And many years later, I was the president and CEO for an organization called the Chemical Industry Institute of Toxicology from 1988 to 1999. And Phil Abelson was on my board of directors. So Phil and I were lifelong friends. I was very pleased, many years later, when I was recognized as a Regent’s Distinguished Alumnus at Washington State University to actually—I knew that Phil was also an alumnus, but I didn’t appreciate he was the first Regent’s Alumnus in terms of Washington State University. And then as I went down the list further, Leo Bustad was on that list. So I’m very proud in terms of that lineage. Franklin: That’s great. As a side note, your name was so familiar to me in the beginning because I did a project for them—for University Communications for a historical timeline and had to find pictures of all the Regent’s Distinguished—what year were you a Regent’s Distinguished— McClellan: Golly, I think 2007, maybe. Franklin: Okay, I think I found your picture somewhere and put it up on the website. McClellan: Yeah. Franklin: It’s funny. So, wow. You got all three degrees at Washington State? McClellan: No, no, I only received one. It’s always interesting, particularly if I’m appearing in the court room. They’ll say where did you get your bachelor’s degree? I say, I don’t have one. You know, plaintiff lawyers spend a lot of time on that. I went to WSU at a time period when you could actually gain admission with the appropriate number of credit hours after two years. So I ended up going to Washington State University and completing my only degree, a Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine, in six years, and graduated in 1960. Franklin: Wow. McClellan: So I was 23 years old. I later—kind of on a lark—took a Master’s in Management Science—an MBA in an executive program—at the University of New Mexico. I received that degree in 1980. That was a lot of fun, because, again, it was multidisciplinary. There were engineers; there were chemists, physicists, social scientists, physicians, lawyers. I’ve alwys enjoyed that kind of interdisciplinary environment. I had that in terms of that program at Robert O. Anderson School of Management at University of New Mexico. And then later I had the good fortunate that the Ohio State University recognized my career in comparative veterinary medicine and awarded me an honorary Doctor of Science degree, which I’m very proud to have received. Franklin: So you said—you mentioned that you worked three summesr at the Hanford Site and then were brought on at Bustad’s urgings back to Hanford. So how long did you stay at—so you graduated in 1960 and then came back to— McClellan: Yeah. Well then I actually—I planned to stay two years until my fiancée, Kathleen—Kathleen Donnegan—graduated from Washington State. Then we’d have kind of free range. One of my understandings with Bustad when I came to Hanford is he would make certain I could visit all the schools around the USA that I was interested in potentially going to to pursue a graduate degree. He said, I won’t get you to Perth, Australia, the other one you’re considering, but I’ll get you to those five in the US. And he did live up to his bargain. Leo was a great mentor in terms of encouraging me to do lots of different things and always push yourself to the limit. He signed me up—I think the second year I was at Hanford, I was 24 years old, and he asked me to keep a day open. As I recall, it was in March ’62. And I said, well, Leo, we need to fill in the calendar; what do you have in mind? He said, well, I signed you up to give a seminar at the University of Washington on bone marrow transplantation in miniature pigs. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty heavy. But he was reassuring. As I was getting my slides together, he said, Roger, remember when you talk to that group of people, you’re going to know more about the subject than anybody in that room. That’s great advice to a young student—young scientist—to have confidence. That if you’re well-prepared, you could go before a pretty formidable audience, because you should know more about that topic than anybody in that room. Franklin: Right. How was it, coming back to Hanford after it had been privatized? I’m sure you probably—your parents lived— McClellan: Yeah, actually it was—when I was at WSC, my parents bought their home. So I saw those activities. And then, when I was employed, I was in the Hanford Laboratories. That was a remarkable institution, organization. The individual that headed that was H. M. Parker—Herbert M. Parker. The biology division within that was headed up by Harry A. Kornberg. Leo Bustad reported to Kornberg. I reported to Bustad. I was on a very short reporting line, if you will. Mr. Parker reported to W. A. Johnson. So I knew Herb Parker personally. I’d had the opportunity to give one of what were sometimes called the Parker seminars—individuals would be invited to give a seminar for Mr. Parker and a very small group of people in Parker’s office and library in 300 Area. Those were always with some trepidation. You couldn’t turn down that invitation, because people maneuvered to get them. But that was a pretty august audience they had at the laboratories—H. M. Parker listening to your presentation and having questions. Franklin: That sounds like a very encouraging workplace. McClellan: Oh, it was! Franklin: [INAUDIBLE] of research discipline and hard work. McClellan: And hard work was rewarded. I remember in 1962, I had a call from Mr. Parker’s office to come in. A little bit uncertain. Leo Bustad had kind of gone out on a limb in terms of encouraging me to go to an international meeting in England at the International Congress of Radiation Research. I initially took in my travel schedule and Leo took a look and said, gee, this doesn’t look very good, Roger. And I said, what do you mean? I’m going to the meeting for a week, I’m going to take a week’s vacation. It’s going to be just a month or so after I’m married. He said, oh, no, no problem with that. I’d like you to spend a lot more time there. There’s a lot of people I want you to see and meet. So he said I’ll draw up a revised schedule. So I came back the next day and he had a schedule that was four weeks! I said, holy cow! I said, Leo, this isn’t going to fly. I mean, it certainly won’t get by Mr. Parker. And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, you don’t know the saying. There’s a saying around the lab with the working troops that if you’re gone two weeks, you’re gone forever. I said I don’t want to tempt fate. He said, oh, Herb’s bark is always a lot sharper than his bite. He said, I think he’ll approve this. He thinks you’re one of our rising stars. So sure enough, Herb Parker approved it. And then just the week before I’m going to this meeting, I get a call from Mr. Parker’s office. And I thought, uh-oh, he’s going to personally tell me he’s changed his mind. So I went into his office, and seated in the outer room, the door to the strong room, if you will, open. And Mr. Parker, a rather large individual, came out with his kind of limp handshake. Hello, Roger, great to have you here. Come on in. And then, you’re probably wondering why I’ve invited you to my office today. And I said, well, I am. [LAUGHTER] He said, well, we have a program here. I like to recognize people for their contributions, and it’s a rather private matter. And he gave me a little black leather case, and it had a nice little commemorative statement in there. Then he reached into his coat pocket and he pulled out an envelope and he said, and there is a monetary award that goes with this. I’m sure that’s going to be useful on that very prolonged trip you have planned to Europe. [LAUGHTER] So, Herb could have a—he was an outstanding scientist—also had a very wry, British humor. He certainly encouraged me to become involved in activities in radiation protection. I’m very confident I would never have become a member of the National Counsel of Radiation Protection and Measurements if it had not been for the encouragement that Herb Parker and Leo Bustad gave me. Franklin: Could you speak a little—just for people that might not know—could you speak a little more about Herb Parker and his work at Hanford. Since you knew him personally, Herb Parker’s working at Hanford and his importance to Hanford. McClellan: Well, Herb Parker was trained as a radiological physicist in England. Very bright individual. Did some seminal work in radiological physics, particularly related to treatment of cancer, and what we call [UNKNOWN] dose curves. He developed these to estimate the radiation dose that would be delivered to a tumor, if you will, from an external x-ray beam. One of the people that he learned of and came in contact with was Dr. Cantrell at Swedish Cancer Institute in Seattle. So, he joined Cantrell to continue his work. And then World War II came along and Herb got pulled into the Manhattan Project. He was a part of a group of individuals trained primarily in physics, some in chemistry, and brought together initially at Oak Ridge. They were to be sort of the liaison between the operations, the medical community, and assuring the safety of workers. That coded, if you will, as health physics. That was done in part because no one wanted to use the term radiological in terms of this particular activity, because of the secrecy during World War II. Later, Herb would express profound dislike for that term, health physics. I agree with him. I would think it probably was a useful placeholder for a time period. So Herb was one of that early group, and he was assigned to Hanford, I think. If memory serves me, he came to Hanford in August of 1944. I said I came in September to start the third grade in 1944. And Herb had a key role in the overall design and management, ultimately, of the program in terms of radiological protection of the Hanford workers, and you could go more broadly, protection in terms of chemical agents. And not protection just of workers but the total environmental program. In my opinion, the program that Herb Parker really provided the leadership for was one of the foremost programs in terms of environmental and worker protection that was ever put in place in prospective way. Evidence of that, Mr. Parker—and it was Mr. Parker; he did not have an earned doctoral degree—set about writing with Cantrell kind of a handbook, if you will, on radiation protection. What is it? What is radiation? What does it do to the body? He wanted to see that distributed to the appropriate workers at the earliest possible date. It ran into some difficulties in terms of clearance, but it ultimately was released on January 5th, 1945. My eighth birthday. [LAUGHTER] So it’s easy for me to recall. That document is an extraordinary exposition on what we knew about radiation then. And many of the basic concepts that were outlined by Cantrell and Parker in that document are still applicable today. Franklin: So he’s really a major leader in health physics. McClellan: Yeah, and I would say, Herb would probably—he would prefer radiological protection. Franklin: Radiological protection. McClellan: Yeah, and I see it as that big picture of protection of workers and the environment from agents, whether the agents were working, processing, in terms of the whole chain of radioactive materials, uranium to plutonium fission products, or whether we’re talking about chemicals. My career, in fact, has been punctuated—I’ve been involved in radiation throughout my career, but I’ve also spent a very large portion of it dealing with chemical agents. Franklin: How long did you work at Hanford Labs? McClellan: Well, as I said, I came back as a permanent scientist 1960. I was very fortunate, I think, working under the leadership of Leo Bustad and Harry Kornberg and Mr. Parker, to be advanced very early to rank Senior Scientist. I soon put the graduate program sort of on the side and pushed ahead. In 1964, Leo came to me and said, you know, they’re pushing on me again to come back to Washington, D.C. on a special assignment. I’m not really enthusiastic about it because my kids are in school. But I think I’m going to suggest they take a look at you. What do you think about that? And I said, well, gee. That sounds like an interesting opportunity. So, first thing you know, I’m on my way to Washignton, D.C. and a series of interviews. We reached agreement that in October 1 of 1964, I’ll go to Washington, D.C. Well, then, all of the sudden, things started to change in the summer, basically, of ’64. The decision that General Electric is going to leave, that total operation is going to be fragmented. Sometimes I refer to that as the disparaging phrase of, maintaining employment in the face of absence of a product. Because it was pretty clear we had enough plutonium-239. We didn’t need Hanford any longer to produce any more. General Electric ran a very efficient operation. So, General Electric headed out, and they start to look at firms to run different pieces of the operation. It became known that the laboratories would be managed as a separate enterprise, and very quickly we learned that was going to be Battelle Memorial Institute from Columbus. For those of at Hanford, it didn’t take much time in the library to kind of determine that, gee, this seems to be upside-down. We ought to be taking over Battelle, not Battelle taking us over. But that’s the way it was. So I was interviewed by Sherwood Fawcett, who had been announced as the first director of what would become the Pacific Northwest Laboratories. The outcome was predictable. They said, we want you to join the Battelle team. We seem to have this problem: you’re leaving before we arrive. So I said, well, that’s just the way it is. [LAUGHTER] And he said, well, maybe we could delay your departure. I said, well, perhaps we could talk to the people in the AEC and see if they’d be agreeable. But Dr. Fawcett said, well, what would they have to do with it? And I still remember telling him, they had something to do with everything that goes on here. They certainly will have a say. Well, they were quickly agreed. So it was agreed that I would become a Battelle employee. So as I recall, January 4th or thereabouts, 1965, I walked out the door on Friday evening and threw my GE badge in the box and came in on Monday morning and picked up a Battelle badge, and that Friday I headed out on a leave of absence to join the division of biology and medicine at the Atomic Energy Commission in Washington, D.C. Franklin: Wow. McClellan: So the next phase is after not quite two years in Washington. I spent—I was then strongly encouraged to go to Albuquerque, New Mexico to run a research program on inhaled radioactivity that was operated by the Lovelace Foundation for Medical Education and Research, a part of a triad of a medical research institute, a private medical clinic and a hospital. And in that role, running that program, I essentially competed with Hanford in terms of a very significant research program that Bill Bair pioneered in leading at Hanford. So while I was gone from Hanford, I in a sense remained connected, certainly scientifically. And as a competitor, but a very friendly competition. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] And did you ever come back to work at Hanford after you went to New Mexico? McClellan: Well, I never came—well, I came for a couple weeks in the summer of ’66 and sort of bid my farewell. Wrapped up a few things. And I continued to publish some papers interrelated. I came back many times in terms of the Hanford Symposium that became a regular feature. And then I had the opportunity, more recently, to serve on the Scientific Advisory Committee for the US Transuranium and Uranium Registry. Which, ironically, I was involved in in some of the early activities initiating it in 1966. Now we’re 50 years later, celebrating the 50th anniversary of a landmark program started by group of occupational physicians, Dag Norwood, one of those small contractors in the privatized acitivites at Hanford. Then that later went over to Washington State University, and today is maintained and operated as a piece of the Washington State University College of Pharmacy. Franklin: Yup. When you were at Hanford Labs, what kinds of work were you—you mentioned work on pigs, bone marrow—what other kinds of work were you doing? McClellan: Well, we had a major study that Leo was wrapping up on the effects of radioiodine in thyroid cancer in sheep. I did some ancillary studies related to how we translated those results to people, to humans. One of the key pieces of work that I did—and it really fit into a bigger picture with many people involved, but—we looked at the effects of x radiation of the thyroid gland and compared that to the protracted beta radiation of the thyroid from ingested or inhaled radioiodine. That showed that the protracted radiation exposure was much less effective in causing damage to the thyroid. So that was a very important piece of work. Another major study that—the primary one I had responsibility for was one that involved miniature pigs given strontium-90. They received their strontium-90 dose each day. We had three generations of pigs. Not because it was a study of genetic effects, but that’s the way in which we could introduce additional animals into the study. It ultimately involved over 1,000 miniature pigs, essentially studied for their total lifespan. And the endpoints were the development of bone marrow discrasias, bone marrow cancers, leukemia, and a development of bone cancers. So that study continued after I left. I think, in total, it represented a very important contribution. A key finding, again, was the importance of dose rate delivery. When radiation dose is protracted over time, it’s much less effective in causing damage and causing cancer. Another key study that was done during that time period linked back to Operation Green Run. We essentially simulated a part of that in a study in which we fed radioiodine—iodine-131 to dairy cows. We followed the thyroid in radioactivity in dairy cows. We collected samples of the milk—we milked them. And then we had a group of volunteers that drank that radioiodine-contaminated milk, elements of it. And then we monitored their thyroids. So you could put together this total picture of a contamination event in terms of iodine-131. What’s happening in terms of the cow’s thyroids accumulating iodine, what’s happening in terms of the iodine-131 in the milk, and then what is happening in terms of concentration of radioiodine in the human thyroid for people ingesting that. That was a very valuable set of data to help us understand what happened in terms of Operation Green Run. It was an extraordinarily valuable piece of information we could use in terms of assessing what was happening post-Chernobyl and post Fukushima. Franklin: What did that data show, as to contamination in humans? McClellan: Well, it basically—key message out of that is if radioiodine is released in the event of a reactor accident, you really want to focus on what you can do to control it. You can control it multiple ways. One way is you simply take the cows off of any pasturage. You put them on the stored feed that doesn’t have radioiodine in it. And you make very certain that you simply stop the milk in that supply line. So in the case of Chernobyl, I was able to go to the Ukraine the fall after the Chernobyl accident and do some work there, reconstructing what was going on. Franklin: Oh, wow. McClellan: We could see—and I think has been subsequently borne out—in many areas the Soviets were very effective of limiting the exposure of populations. Part of that was cut off that contaminated milk supply. The other that came out of that was something we had a clue to, and that is that the stable iodine intake is very important. If an individual is in what we call a goitergenic diet, low on stable iodine, then they’re going to take up much more of the radioiodine and get a higher radiation dose, as well as, I think there’s a synergistic interaction between the goitergenic thyroid that low in terms of iodine intake, and it’s pushing to do its best, if you will, limited iodine. So that’s combination of living in an area that’s goiterogenic and being subjected to radioiodine is bad news. Franklin: How would someone naturally have a low iodine intake? McClellan: Well, very difficult in the USA—or in most advanced countries. Because one of the things we do is we introduce iodine in the flour. Franklin: And what about iodized salt, also. McClellan: Salt, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So-- McClelland: Okay. But in certain areas, you know, in the Ukraine and Belarussia, at the time of the Chernobyl accident, things were not working well politically. Areas that had subsidized practices in terms of iodized salt, iodized flour—that was gone. They were reverting back to the old ways of flour being produced from wheat grown in these low iodine areas. Franklin: So they’re bodies would have been much more naturally attuned to be grabbing that iodine and storing it? McClellan: That’s right. Yeah, that’s exactly— Franklin: Wow, that’s really fascinating. McClellan: So the people most at risk were those people living in those goiterogenic areas. In fact, that pattern was well-studied in terms of people knowledgeable of thyroid and thyroid disease. Franklin: So did you know this about—you knew this about the iodine, then, before Chernobyl happened and were able to identify it, or this came about as a result of Chernobyl? McClellan: Well, what happened is Chernobyl kind of confirmed our fears, if you will. An individual by the name of Lester van Middlesworth at the Univeristy of Tennessee in Memphis was a major figure in studying thyroid and thyroid diseases. Leo Bustad and van Middlesworth were very good friends. I later became friends with van Middlesworth. He understood this, alerted him to this. In fact, our study that I referred to of radioiodine in cows—cows’ milk—we actually studied the influence in a small supplemental study of changing the iodine intake of the cows. So we knew—we understood that picture then. But it was after Chernobyl that, I think, Lester van Middlesworth was a key figure in pointing out these were the areas that were going to be at risk in the Ukraine, Russia, and Belarussia. Franklin: Wow. The cows that were used for the study, were those cows—were those someone’s cows, or were they cows at the Hanford Labs? McClellan: Oh, no, we purchased the cows. We purchased the cows at the open market. It was kind of fun. We actually had a much bigger experiment planned early on. We were going to grow and have the pastures and contaminate them and so on. But that was a multimillion dollar experiment to get shrunk down to something you could finally do. Kind of an interesting sideline is, as I told you, I came to Hanford as a summer student. I was fortunate that I fit into a program that was designed primarily for engineers. There were 100 individuals in the program in ’57. I think there were 95, 98 bona fide engineers. There was a graduate student from Wyoming and me, a veterinary medical student. But I had a—and Leo had an enthusiasm for bringing in students. So when I came back and was a permanent staff member, we regularly recruited students. So I can recall when we were planning the cow study, Leo and I had a set of resumes and applications in front of us. Leo pulled out one, and he said, I think this guy is really our guy. His name was Eugene Elafson. And I said, oh, I spotted him, Leo, and I knew you’d probably pick him out. He said, why is that? And I said, because he’s from Stanwood, Washington. That’s where you grew up! He’s another Scandinavian. And he said, oh, Roger, I knew you’d see through that. But remember, this guy grew up on a dairy farm. We need somebody to milk these cows this summer. [LAUGHTER] So we had Gene Olafson, who later was onto a very successful career in veterinary medicine. It was one of the students working with us that summer. Franklin: How did you get the volunteers to ingest the milk? Did they know of— McClellan: Oh, they knew that they were ingesting—in fact, they were all, as best I recall, the individuals were all professionals within the radiation protection unit at Hanford. Franklin: Okay. McClellan: So today, whether we would have allowed them to be subjects of their own experiment, I don’t know. But I want to assure you that the radiation doses they received were extraordinarily small. Franklin: I was just curious. McClellan: Yeah. Franklin: You don’t hear about human subjects, generally, you know? McClellan: Well, we went through a time period where there was a lot of attention given in terms of work done under the auspices of the Atomic Energy Commission and using radiation and radionuclides in human subjects. During that time period, this study was one which the people—by then, Battelle was operating the laboratories, but they had go to back and pull out all the records. I recall very well the day I received a call from an attorney with the General Electric Company and said, I’ve read your papers in which you’re a coauthor reporting these students with five volunteers at Hanford. What can you tell me about them? But turned out, our scientific papers published in the open peer reviewed literature were one of the best pieces of information that one could use to readily calculate the radiation exposure the individuals and show that it was what I would call de minimis. Franklin: Okay. That’s really interesting. When did you finally retire? Or have you retired? McClellan: I’m not really retired. I’ve transitioned. I think my career is one of Hanford and studies on ingested radionuclides. A very important part of Hanford that I think should be emphasized is we were involved in what I would call issue-resolving science. We were trying to develop science so that we could resolve issues, solve problems, create information that could protect workers, protect the environment. I’m concerned that we’ve, over the years, science has changed in many quarters. Now sometimes I accuse some of my fellow scientists of being engaged in issue of perpetuating science: can we keep this going until my career’s over, or my graduate students’ careers are over. And even sometimes a bit of, will this arouse enough concern on the part of the public that they’ll fund what I want to do? The year that I was involved at Hanford, it was issue resolving science. The problem, the issue, it wasn’t a random walk through the scientific thicket, trying to find something interesting. Franklin: Why do you think that’s changed? McClellan: Well, I think we always have tension, and sometimes the tension—we can simplify it by talking about basic versus applied science. I think that’s an artificial distinction on it. Some of the most basic, fundamental findings in science have been serendipitous findings that came out of applied science. I really am not an enthusiastic of the view that the best and the brightest can go into the laboratory and just sit down and they’ll have some great thoughts about what comes next. Some of this, I think, comes out of the high energy physics community, where there is a bit of that. I’m a strong believer, particularly in the use of public funds. That public funds should be used for science, in which we do have issues, and we want to obtain information that’s going to help us resolve those and use the science for the benefit of society. I think we sometimes get a little quite frankly maybe a little pompous as scientists that we know what the issues are and if the public would just listen to us more and give us more money, why, we’ll solve all the problems. That’s not really the way the world works. I think that science if a very vital part of the whole society. But it has to be a part of it, and it has to be interlocked and working with the other elements of society. I also think that many times we find scientists getting so wrapped up in their particular discipline that they fail to appreciate that most of these issues are so complex, they’re not solved by one scientist, one discipline. They’re really solved by a team of people. That becomes very challenging, because systems, in terms of reward, are not always designed to reward teams of people. Franklin: Right. McClellan: We focus on rewarding individuals. I would say, I think, at Hanford, in the time period that I had extensive involvement, there was a teamwork orientation and a balance of recognizing the value of the individual but the value of the individual contributing his part of the team to solve a problem. Franklin: Do you think—do you feel, maybe, that the Cold War had an impact in how science was connected, or that kind of teamwork or purpose-driven science happened, especially in the period you’re talking about, in the early, the heightened tensions of the Cold War versus this kind of post-Cold War world? McClellan: Well, I know there was a purpose. In terms of talking nationalistic. Franklin: Right. McClellan: I mean, we were in a war. But now we’re in a new war, the Cold War. We knew what the Soviets were doing; they knew what we were doing. I think there was a battle on—I think the other part of that that influences this is that if you go back to the tremendous contributions of science, in terms of World War II, to winning that war, and certainly in many different ways—but we can go into the whole issue of RADAR. Things were done in communication, things were done in aeronautics in terms of physiological suit design. Franklin: And so on. McClellan: Yeah. Development of antibiotics. All of that, the whole field of nuclear energy. My personal view is that nuclear energy has both benefited from those origins, but it’s also had a heavy burden to bear. [LAUGHTER] I can relate to the fact that I’m visiting here in Richland and I’m going to go to a football game, and that football game, my grandson’s going to be playing in one team from western Washington, and they’re going to be playing the Richland High School Bombers, and their symbol is a mushroom cloud. Franklin: Proud of the cloud! McClellan: Unfortunately, many people, when you talk about nuclear power and its role in meeting our societal energy needs, their first image is that mushroom cloud. Their second image is envisioning thousands of deaths in terms of people who were killed in the two atomic bombings in Japan. What they fail to appreciate is that in fact radiation is not very effective in terms of producing cancer. It is really a weak carcinogen. That being said it has a bad rap. It doesn’t get as much of a good rap, probably, as it should in terms of its value in diagnostic purposes in terms of human medicine, nor diagnostic purposes—treatment purposes in terms of ccancer. Radiation is still one of our most effective tools in terms of cancer treatment. But all of that is sort of overwhelmed in the public view. So I continue to be a very strong supporter, enthusiast, wearing my hat as a citizen, I think, with special knowledge of radiation, as to what we should be doing in terms of trying to meet our energy needs. I think nuclear power has a key role. We’ve amply demonstrated that we can handle it and control it. We have had serious accidents—Chernobyl, Fukushima—but I think we can also learn from those. Franklin: Right. So I hate to— McClellan: I think we’ve gone well over. Franklin: We’ve gone for a bit. But I hate to [unknown] but I have an interview here in just a bit. But before you go, is there anything else we haven’t talked aobut that you would like to get off your chest? McClellan: No. Well, there’s probably about another hour-and-a-half. Franklin: Well, we’d—I’d be happy to schedule a follow-up interview with you. There’s still several questions that I haven’t asked you. McClellan: Oh, I think there’s a whole area that we ought to go into. Because I think—I mean, I know I sound pompous, but—I think I know it probably better than anybody else. This would take us down the line of radio accidents, inhalation of radioactivity, workers and worker exposure. Really the basis for much of the work that Bill Bair and his colleagues did at Hanford. And then the work we did at Albuquerque, initially with fission product radionuclides and then with plutonium. And then worked on it at the University of Utah with injections of plutonium, strontium-90, radium, in the beagle dogs. And then the study at UC-Davis that involved ingested strontium-90 and injected radium in dogs, and that links back to the studies with miniature pigs here. Those studies collectively provide a major portion of our knowledge of internally deposited radionuclides. The part that’s fascinating out of that is when we look at our human experience, in terms of the USA, I think we can be extraordinarily pleased with the fact that we did have effective radiation protection programs that go back to Herb Parker. So if there were effects, injuries, they’re extraordinarily rare, very localized. On a collective basis, I think we—we have ample evidence—we did a good job. On the other hand, I tell you that we have evidence post-Cold War that Mayak, the Soviet, was a very different situation. In fact, we did the studies in dogs because we didn’t have human experience. And we never expected to get it. What it turned out is the Soviets at Mayak got the experience that we never thought we would see and we never wanted to see. Their human subjects, accidentally exposed, demonstrated that our dogs were great models; i.e., workers at Mayak were exposed at levels that did produce an excess of lung cancer, an excess of liver cancer, an excess of bone cancer. The lung cancers and liver cancers were really remarkably predicted from the dog data. Franklin: Wow. McClellan: Once you took into account two factors—one major. The dogs were clean living. They didn’t smoke, and they didn’t drink. Smoking does cause lung cancer. Franklin: Yeah, it does. McClellan: And some plutonium exposure adds to that. Drinking in huge quantities can cause liver damage, and liver cancer. Exposure to plutonium increases it further. Franklin: Interesting. Well, that was great. And I would love to—we’d love to— McClellan: So we’ll figure out some other time when we can continue into these others. Then after you’ve looked at what you’ve got here and how much of it’s useable— Franklin: Oh, there’s a lot of it. Thank you so much. That was great. And I had a great time. McClellan: Well, my pleasure. <a href="https://youtu.be/85Jpe-VRlqQ">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:32:42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Gene Conley W.E. Johnson Oren H. Pilkey Walter Pilkey Oren Pilkey Doctor Lyle Swindeman Albin Pherson Leo K. Bustad Kathleen Donnegan Herbert M. Parker Harry A. Kornberg Dr. Cantrell Sherwood Fawcett Dag Norwood Lester van Middlesworth Leo Bustad Eugene Elafson Gene Olafson Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roger McClellan Description An account of the resource An interview with Roger McClellan conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09-02-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 1954 300 Area Atomic Energy Commission Battelle Cancer Cold War DuPont General Electric Hanford injuries Los Alamo Los Alamos Manhattan Project Park PUREX School Street Sun War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F299336f621f7bfdaef0ca3c2ddfe3852.jpg f2df9b985329a240d244eccbee548344 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F886b5308a25a12ac21d9f55dd2724627.mp4 5c878b6eaf5ec93b4a5a0bfd7e335c07 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Kathren Description An account of the resource An interview with Ron Kathren conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9868b23ec896cee8f1bd7b5406cbcb37.jpg 943e003304bc16627b626299707171f6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F818a1b8ac4e1d8e8126ec135ee171497.mp4 01a5d6cb8e7cbb12aaaaf554dc00d91c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Kathren Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Northwest Public Television | Kathren_Ronald </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Ron Kathren: My name is Ron Kathren. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: All right. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on the campus of Washington State University. And today's date is July 30th of 2013. So we’re going to start by, Ron, just having you talk about when you first arrived in Tri-Cities, when you came to Hanford, how that came about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I came to the Tri-Cities the first time to a scientific meeting, I think it was 1963. There wasn't much here then, but for some reason I rather fell in love with the place. Subsequently, I acquired a wife who was a native Washingtonian. And I remember telling her how I liked this part of the state. She's from the other side of the mountains, so she was used to the lush green forests and what-have-you. But one thing led to another--do you want the long story, Bob? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, go for the long story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: One of the people from Battelle came down to visit. This was common in those days. I was working at what's now Lawrence Livermore National Lab. And he came down to visit me. We did these technical exchanges. And he spent two days. He also had a good friend that he was visiting over at Stanford. And he actually stayed at my home. Well, I couldn't figure out why he was there. [LAUGHTER] And I finally asked him, Harold, what the devil are you doing here? And he really didn't want to say. And the reason was the Atomic Energy Commission in those days, the predecessor to the Department of Energy, had kind of an unwritten rule that one contractor or one lab was not supposed to steal people from another lab. And Harold just finally opened up and he said, well, I'm here to hire you. [LAUGHTER] And I was floored because I had wanted to get up to Hanford. Part of the reason was the type of work they were doing here was really relevant to my interests and what I had been doing at Livermore. And it seemed to be a more, shall I say, happy climate, morale-wise. And so in 1967, in July of ‘67, we moved to Richland. My wife was very pregnant. And we now have three generations of the Kathren family here in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so what sort of work were you doing at Livermore? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was doing health physics. I was actually in charge of the calibration--radiological calibration lab there. And we used film badges in those days. And the film dosimetry group. So had other responsibilities too, but those were my main responsibilities there. And by the way I'll just mention this, one of the things that really intrigued me—we had done an intra-comparison of film badges and calibrations for plutonium, which was of interest. When I say “we,” we had done it with Hanford, Los Alamos, and Livermore. Because there was some question about how well we were measuring the very low energy photons--that are actually x-rays--that are associated with the decay of plutonium. And as it turned out, Los Alamos and Livermore were right on target. Hanford, which I would have expected to be the one to match, was quite a large percentage different from our results. And when I got up here, that was one of the things that I figured out. And that's a long story we won't go into. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So you came in ‘67? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Came in July of ‘67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And who was the primary contractor at that time? Was that who you were working for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: It was Battelle. There were actually three contractors. What they had done in 1965 was to diversify the site. It had all been General Electric. And they wanted to make this into a more normal community, not so heavily dependent on the site. And so they put out requests for proposals. And the bidders had to put in some sort of normal activity in addition to running the site. Battelle won the contract for the research labs. And their promise was--and they did it—to build $20 million of private research facilities. And they also had what was called a use permit, so they could use the government facilities for private research, paying a fee for this. And the government, in turn, could use the Battelle facilities for government research, paying a fee also. The other two contractors, as I recall, were Douglas United Nuclear, which was a consortium of Douglas Aircraft the United Nuclear. And they ran the reactors. Their contribution was the construction of the Donald Douglas Laboratories which are no longer extant. And among other things, they were working on the artificial heart and isotopic power sources. And the third one, I believe, was Isochem. They didn't last long. They were in the 200 Areas, the waste areas. And their idea was to take up the radioactive species in the waste areas to remove them and use them for various beneficial purposes. You can use, for example, oh, say, cobalt-60. You can take that out of the waste and concentrate it and then you can give high radiation doses to certain kinds of flooring materials--they do this now--that are injected with plastic into the wood and it strengthens them. And it makes them far more resistant to damage. Isochem didn't last long. And they were replaced by Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield brought a risk capital venture plan. And also a cattle feedlot facility. So I got here just about the time Isochem was getting ready to go and Atlantic Richfield was getting ready to come in. I'm going to comment quickly about Atlantic Richfield and their risk capital. I got the great idea that the area here is perfect for growing walnuts. I had been living in Walnut Creek. I lived in an old walnut orchard. I'm kind of interested in things like that. In fact, today in my dotage retirement I'm a master gardener. But the first thing I had to do was to convince the county ag agent that this area was suitable for growing walnuts. And I remember he was insistent that it just couldn't happen here. That the frosts were too early, and all kinds of other things. And I was pointing out to him all the reasons why this area was ideal. And also from an economic standpoint, the walnut orchards in California we're being cut down for subdivisions or the trees were being destroyed by a disease. I think it's called black ledge, or black--black--black--ooh oh I can't remember now. Walnut trees down in California are grafted. And at the graft, it would develop this black line and they'd die. The upper part. The part where the nuts were produced. That wouldn't happen here because the winters are sufficiently cold to prevent that disease from occurring. I think it's a viral disease. In any event, when I convinced him, I drafted up a little proposal and I went to Atlantic Richfield's risk capital thing and pointed out all the merits of this. Walnut trees don't need a lot of care. You don't prune them heavily the way you do grapes or apples. They could be flood irrigated a couple times a year, so you didn't need extensive irrigation systems. Harvesting is really fairly easy. One of the ways to do is just put a big net under the tree and come along with a shaker and shake the tree and all the nuts drop, and you gather them up. And to be economically sound, you had to have, I figured, maybe 100 to 200 acres. Because they have to be washed and dried afterwards. But you didn’t need—it was not labor intensive. And Atlantic Richfield, I remember the guy telling me, well, that's a super idea you've got. And can even be done with college students primarily. But the problem is it's not labor intensive enough. And we want to create jobs. So that's a long story, but that gives you some feeling. But I really, we did by the way, my father-in-law brought two walnut trees, volunteers, from our home in Walnut Creek. Kept them in coffee cans for, I think, about two years. And we built our house here and I planted them. Then they just did wonderfully. So sorry to get off on a tangent here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: That’s all right. So when you first arrived and started working at Battelle, what sorts of things were you working on initially? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was hired in as the Manager of External Dosimetry. And external dosimetry maintained and calibrated all the portable radiation monitoring instruments used on the site. It was a site wide function. And one of my chief responsibilities was to update the pool of instruments. I think they had some 1,600 instruments. Most of them were pretty old. I think every one of them was home built. They didn't go commercial. And one of my ideas was to go commercial. And I started to build the calibration lab, which now Battelle has—people who took it after me really did a fine job. One of them was Jack Selby, who just passed away and who we mentioned earlier. His group really built it into a—not that it wasn't under me of course, but a first class standards laboratory for radiological calibrations. And also we oversaw the contractor that did the dosimetry, the film badges for the site, and responded to any potential over-exposures from external radiation. That was basically what my initial job here was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how long did you do that sort of work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I think three years I was in that job. And then Battelle had a reorganization, and I—it was kind of messy, but I chose to stay with my boss. And he had a radiological group that included the dosimetry and so on. But I stayed with them and it did many other assignments. A whole variety of things. I was kind of his go-to-it guy. He was once asked by another manager, how do you manage Ron? And he looked at the guy and said, you don't. [LAUGHTER] He said, you just let him go and do his thing. And if he gets too far down the road you don't want him on, you just jerk him back. [LAUGHTER] But he was really one of the finest people I've ever known. And very good manager. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And who was this? What was his name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: This was Harold Larson. And Harold was somewhat older than me. And well, we just fit together. For many years later, I was his staff assistant and got all these problems to solve. And it was great fun. Is was a challenge. And you never knew what was going to happen. One of the things we did--that fits in with the history scheme—there were what were called service assessment dollars. All the contractors got assessed. A certain amount—percentage in their contracts to pay for plant-wide services. These included the centralized dosimetry records, and the calibrations group, et cetera. After this organization change, and I was Harold's staff assistant, we used to go out and visit our clients, our customers, every month or maybe every three weeks. Well, they're out in the 200 and 100 Areas. And what we'd usually do is we'd take a car and our lunch and go out and visit one in the morning and then one in the afternoon. And in between, we'd go eat our lunch. And sometimes we'd go to the old Hanford town site. One day we were there—and this shows you how Harold thinks—because he was very quick. So here are a couple of guys in suits—coats and ties anyway—wandering around the old Hanford site, which was not supposed to be open as such. We had badges and our badges permitted us in that area. But up drives a security vehicle. And the guy leaps out it comes up and looks at us. And if you're going to be out there, you probably should be wearing some kind of coveralls or what-have-you. [LAUGHTER] He looks at us and he says, what are you guys doing here? And Harold without missing a microsecond responded, oh, we're out checking our environmental monitoring program. We also had responsibility for the plant-wide environmental monitoring program. And that just was the end of that. But if it had been I to whom that question was posed, I'd probably still be in jail. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So let’s--how long then did you work for Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I worked for Battelle for roughly five years. They had been closing down reactors, there was a lot of unemployment, a lot of people job hunting. Not I. But I had another problem. And that problem was with one of my children who needed special medical care and dental care. I like small towns. In fact, that was one of the real appeals to coming to Richland. But small towns have--and in those days it was really bad--a lack of certain amenities that the big cities have. And at the time there were, I think, two pediatricians in town. One was incompetent and the other was an alcoholic. And here was a child that really needed a lot of—and I didn't—I could see us making lots of trips to Children's Hospital in Seattle. It was very worrying for my wife, by the way. And also Battelle's medical plan at the time had a $25,000 lifetime limit, which they probably would have extended, but we already had quite a bit into that. So, there was a position that came up in Portland working in industry and I jumped on that. It was—I couldn't wait to get back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And at what point did you come back, then, to Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: We came back six years later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So it would have been what year, about, roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: ‘78. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: ‘78. And did you come back working at Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I came back to Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And what sort of position or job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was a staff scientist and Harold Larson's staff assistant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how long did you, at that point then, remain with Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Well, that's an interesting question. I say it's interesting because I got involved in--I don't know how—but by chance, something I'd always wanted to do. And that was to get involved with the transuranium and uranium registries. And I was doing that. And other program I had was the environmental dose overview for the site. And Battelle had another organization change. I used to joke that Battelle had an organization change, a major change, every other year. And a minor change in every month it didn't have an R in it. So they had this change, and Harold lost the department in a consolidation and so on. And the new department manager was not really a very good manager. And I think he wanted to get rid of all of a people he had inherited from Harold. I being one of them. And I'm on his staff. So that wasn't going the greatest. And working for the registries, that's a different contractor. That's the medical contractor, medical records. And they, for obvious reasons, did not want the medical records removed from their building. You know, there are privacy questions. Even in those days there were serious privacy concerns. And he basically ordered me to stop going over there and bring the things I needed back. Couldn't do it. So I wandered into the President of the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation and basically said, you're paying Battelle so much a year for my time--and I think I was half-time. This might have been only 40%--I said, how would you like me full time for the same money? And how are you going to do that? I said, well, I'll just transfer over here. And I did. I worked out what they call a termination for transfer. So I kept my seniority and so on and went over there. And that was great. That was really outstanding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Do you want to explain what the uranium registry and transuranium registries are? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay, how many hours do we have? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Quickly, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Back in the late '60s--well, let me start this way--Plutonium is an anthropogenic element. It's manmade if I can use the politically incorrect terminology that everybody still understands. And so our experience with it has come from the Manhattan District, largely. It's a highly radiotoxic element, but there's no animal data except for what was done in the Manhattan District. But animals aren't humans and you need human data. Human information. And what's going to happen to these workers? So they created, in I think it was 1968, the National Plutonium Registry to study plutonium in people. And this was not the usual epidemiologic type study. It was a post mortem study where people in advance of death volunteered to permit an autopsy. Or in some cases a whole body donation. And those tissues would be analyzed then for plutonium. So that we could determine where it went in the body, where it deposited, how long it stayed there, if you got enough data, whether there were any biological effects that you could attribute to it. In other words, we did what are called biokinetics, how it moved through the body. And the dosimetry, et cetera. Well, that was fascinating to me. And I had always wanted to work in that. Well, in the fullness of time, the plutonium registry expanded to other heavy elements including americium. And then a separate parallel uranium registry was created. It's interesting to note that although humans have known about uranium for 200 years, until the Kosovo War, there was interest, there were studies, but there wasn't the concern. Because uranium, always radioactive, natural uranium and depleted uranium are a greater hazard from their chemical toxicity than from their radiotoxicity. So there were these two parallel registries. And ultimately they combined into one. And I guess, does that answer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be good for you to explain it-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: --for people who might want to watch this, yeah. So you've got involved in that. And at some point you also starting teaching at WSU Tri-Cities, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I taught my first class on this campus in 1970. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how did that happen? How did you get involved teaching here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: When I came up here, I had been teaching at a community college at night. I'd set up a program in radiation technology and had taught in that community college in California. I like to teach. In fact, I daresay that my happiest hours have been spent in the classroom, providing I have a tall enough lectern so I can duck down when they throw things. But in all seriousness, that is really what I like to do. So I came here and right off the bat, they had a radiation technology program at the local community college. And I taught in that for a year. And then this was--the predecessor to WSU Tri-Cities, was the Joint Center for Graduate Study. And I offered to teach a refresher course for individuals who are going to be sitting for the Health Physics Certification Exam. There's a board certification exam. And sure, why not? That was my first course. The old Joint Center at that time had three university sponsors—Oregon State, Washington State, and University of Washington. And that was done through the University of Washington. And then later I was asked to be a member of the radiological sciences faculty of the University of Washington. Something I did part-time at night. A lot of us did. There were more than 100 adjuncts--UW called them affiliates, but it's the same difference. And so I do that for many years. But a lot of machinations and organization changes. And the perception of people who are affected is far different than the perception of those who make changes [LAUGHTER] as you probably—all you have all found out, I'm sure, in life. Ultimately, the branch campus was created. By that time I had not only an affiliate professorship at U of W, but I also had an adjunct appointment in environmental sciences here. And without going into too much detail, we converted the USTUR, the registry's contract, into a grant and brought it to WSU. This was in ‘92. The official day was Valentine's Day of ‘92, which was a Sunday. But we brought over $3.76 million on a three year grant. And the registries had been subject to a lot of criticism from activist groups. Statements like--and I want to make a point here, so bear with me--these activist groups made all kinds of accusations like body snatchers, et cetera. There's one person in particular, a newspaper reporter, and she was just gung ho. This was a time of real ferment and a lot of anti-nuclear activity. Anyway, we moved them over and I don't think we'd been over here for more than two or three weeks. I had an office in the other building and a secretary. And one day the phone rings and it's some guy from, I think it was the Seattle P.I., but he was from a newspaper in Seattle. This was not extraordinary for me. I have had a lot of dealings with the press. But anyway, he said something about he wanted to know about the registries and about our body snatching. And I said, body snatching? I said, oh, the university wouldn't permit that. And he said, university? What university? I said, Washington State University. The registries are part of WSU. And his words were, oh, well, I guess there's no story then. And he hung up. I never even got the guy's name. [LAUGHTER] So I point this out--you can't always see it face value, things in the newspaper or what-have-you, and realize that you're getting the full story, because one minute we were body snatchers and the next minute, oh, there's no story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So how long, then, were you connected with running the transuranium registry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Retired in 1999. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so during your time at Hanford, the transuranium registry and so forth, what were your list of some of the most rewarding aspect of the work you were doing? And what was maybe some of the more challenging aspects of what you were doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Well, this may not be the answer you're seeking, but if you ask me what the most rewarding aspect of my career was--and I've often said I would not swap careers with anybody else. I just had a lot of frustrations, a lot of difficulties--But they’re over here and they're far outweighed by the pleasures. And my greatest was with the students and with teaching. I look back, a lot of my former students wandering around, and I look back on them and the successes that many of them had. I presume you get the same kinds of feelings, Bob, when you see what they do. And I'd think, who are my all-time best students? Well, there's one that--maybe yes, maybe no--was the all-time best--how do you rate the best? But she was certainly one of the top three. And she's now the Chairman of the Nuclear Engineering Program at Oregon State. Another one is one of the Assistant Directors, or whatever, at Battelle. And he's done incredibly well. The third one was a lady that I had known. And when we were in Portland I had association with Reed College. I don't know if you've ever heard of--okay. In any event, she was a big, tall gal. And I'm not very tall, as you know. And she must have weighed at least 220 pounds. Very large, very large woman. And I remembered telling her one day, Ellen, you are arguably my best student. But unarguably my most obnoxious. She was from New Jersey and you can figure--I loved her. I—I might breakup when I tell you this, [EMOTIONAL] but I really did love her. And I'd see her at scientific meetings and she'd run up to me and put her arms around me and it's just great. She came here and got a job on-site. She's a good teacher. She's a great teacher. I remember she's teaching at the community college somewhere in the East, in New Jersey. And that dried up and she got a job out here. And here she was an absolutely brilliant lady. She wasn't all that difficult. You just had to understand her. But she was just wonderful in her technical knowledge and in her drive to get things done. And just wonderful. But she had one thing that was a problem. She got stuck in training because she was a woman. And that's what you did in those days with women and minorities. It's like, they were stuck. Showcased. She wanted to get out and get her hands dirty. No way. So she started looking for another job and she finally found one at University of Arizona. And it was great. She was the radiation safety officer, she also had a faculty appointment, and she and I were actually very close. And we had worked--we were planning to give a one week, special, short course. And we worked out the outline. And we were going to do this the next summer at the Health Physics meeting. In early December I got a phone call from somebody I didn't know, who was her department head, who said that she died. She had valley fever, compromised immune system, 41 years old. And when she knew she was dying, she told him, when she died to please call her mother and me. Dad was dead. That's the kind of thing that—and in other ways, you touch lives. And hopefully you touch them in a beneficial way. Did a lot other things in my career that I had great fun with in the teaching, the registries. That was terrific. I think those were the most productive years of my career. Earlier on, I was involved with radiological measurements, calibrations, and so on. And trying to make our measurements better dose-wise. But I did a whole bunch of things. Even the years I spent in industry at the utility—and boy, did they have a different philosophy--you learn a lot. And I just feel as if I've made a contribution. I've certainly been satisfied. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: One thing I want to ask you about is your involvement with the Glenn Seaborg papers project. How did that come about? How did you get involved in it and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I grew up in Los Angeles. And I remember taking high school chemistry and learning about the heavy elements. And I was just fascinated by these. So in the back of my mind that was always there. Many, many years later I became the President of the Health Physics Society. One of my colleagues, good friends at the University of Utah, actually said something about, we ought to invite Glenn Seaborg to talk about plutonium. He was a plutonium chemist, this guy. [LAUGHTER] Well, I also had another good friend who had worked with Glenn at the Met Lab. And he said, well, I can just call Glenn. That impressed me quite a bit because Glenn Seaborg, of course, a Nobel Prize winner, former Chancellor at University of California, and worked with [INAUDIBLE]. Just a towering figure. Well doggone if I didn't talk to Glenn and invite him down and he agreed. So I had seen he had written—he was a diarist--and he'd written these diaries for the World War II that were published as internal documents from the Lawrence Berkeley Lab. And I thought, jeez these are terrific. This would make a great book. And edit it, and so on, and identify people. But anyway, he came down to the Health Physics meeting. I had one night free and I set up a reception for him. Just a private reception. And by the way, the guest book from that reception I think I've donated to the archives here. Glenn was just the most humble person. He was great. And I asked him about doing that book. He said, what a wonderful idea. Why don't you do it? [LAUGHTER] So we did. I enlisted the aid of a real historian; that was Jerry Gough. Jerry enlisted the aid of one of his graduate students; that was Gary Benefiel. And we edited and annotated with over 700 biographical sketches. Identified just about everybody in the Section C-1, I think it was, the one that did the plutonium work. Glenn gave it the title. I said, what do you think we ought to call this? Well, The Plutonium Story, of course. But he was great and we had a lot of interfaces after that. I also wanted to—another thing he wrote that I was planning on doing something similar with, but unfortunately Glenn died before that could be done. Does that answer that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, yeah it does. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: If you--one quick thing about Seaborg. He came to the meeting, this annual meeting of the Health and Physics Society. I hadn't met him yet. And he's standing in one of the lecture rooms. And he's up on the dais and I'm with this friend of mine who had worked with him. And we walk in and Glenn looks up and my friend says, hi, Glenn! And Glenn looks at him, hi, by first name, you know. And it was just—he's just one of the guys. I've never met anybody—I’ve met, in my day, I've known three Nobel Prize winners. They're all different. One quick story about another one. I was at a meeting in San Francisco and I was doing some work on carbon. And I asked this individual, we were chatting on something about carbon. She's says, oh, I got a big file on it. Why don't you give me your card and I'll send you a paper on that. Okay. So, I gave the individual my card. And about ten days after the meeting, I got a package in the mail. All—I guess the entire file on radiocarbon had been put in there, including a paper that I myself had written. [LAUGHTER] It was apparently unlike Glenn. It was just, well, I'll just send him everything and get him off my back. Glenn would have sat down and well, let's see. What is it you want and how can we best accommodate you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So when was it that you first met Glenn? When was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Oh gosh, I was Society President I think ‘89 or ‘90, somewhere around there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so you were very actively involved in the Health Physics Society. How long have you been involved in Health Physics Society? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Since 1960. I'm a life member, so they can't get rid of me yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And then I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the Parker Foundation? Explain what that is and how that came about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Herb Parker was an interesting person. He was a medical physicist initially. And he was from England, Manchester. Happens my grandmother was for Manchester, but that's neither here nor there. And Herb, in the 1930s, developed along with a physician—radiologist named Ralston Patterson, a technique for doing radium dosimetry. Radium was the only radioactive material. And it was widely used particularly for uterine and cervical cancers. And doing the dosimetry you have to calculate the doses based on the shapes. If they're a needle or some other geometry, calculations can be very difficult. But it's important to know the doses obviously, because you're destroying a cancer, hopefully. And the Patterson-Parker techniques evolved from that. Herb came here in the 1930s. He went to Seattle in the late 1930s to work on what were then called super voltage x-rays, very high energy x-rays. And of course, now we have a lot of high energy stuff which is useful at treating cancer—certain cancers. More useful than and radium. And he went to work for the Manhattan District first at Oak Ridge and was basically hand-picked to come here because of his abilities. Herb was an interesting person. He did not suffer fools gladly. In fact, he did not suffer fools at all. [LAUGHTER] He did a lot of things. He was the first—there was actually a unit. Well, in the old days, all we had was a unit based on air ionization called the rankine. And that worked for x and gamma rays, but it didn't work for other things, particularly, neutrons and beta rays. And Herb really came up with the concept of absorbed energy. Not ionization and air. And he created a unit that enjoyed a short lifespan. It had quantity. Quantity was energy absorbed in matter. The unit was, he called it the rep, for rankine equivalent physical. And it also got the name of the Parker. If you look at an old McGraw-Hill dictionary of science and technology, you'll see the Parker in there. And that later evolved into a more useful kind of thing. It didn't change the basic concept, but he did that. And he set up the program here. Which was remarkable, because we had no real experience with plutonium. Zero. So to shorten that up, Herb was actually the head of the Hanford Laboratories. Under General Electric, the Hanford Laboratories were a research group and they were world famous. When Battelle came in, Hanford Laboratory ceased to exist. Herb was retained as a consultant to Battelle. And ultimately, he passed away. I think in ‘83 or thereabouts. Bill Bair, who you're going to interview I'm sure, had worked closely with Herb. Bill is a radiation biologist and he was manager of the biology department. Or maybe the Life Sciences Center at the time. But anyway, he got Battelle and the Parker family to kick some dollars and start a Parker Foundation, the idea being to give a lecture, public lecture, once a year. And it has since now evolved. It's a separate nonprofit, but tied to WSU. We turned over all our assets to WSU, because Battelle had lost interest in supporting them. Which is understandable, I'm not faulting Battelle for this. They were very generous when they started it. And we promote education, give a couple scholarships out of the endowment, and still try to have that lecture. That lecture was to honor some scientists and to promote public understanding. And we also are interested in history. And so, this should interest you most as an historian, the Parker Foundation will be supporting the RASC collection, or maybe not dollar-wise in any large amount, but that's one of their things. And you should come to one of our meetings, Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So is there any topic we haven't touched on yet in terms of either your Battelle transuranium registry, anything along those lines, that you would like to discuss? Or that you think would be important to discuss at this point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I'll just—yeah, I’d like to comment on a couple of things. One of the reasons I wanted to come to Battelle—or, it wasn’t Battelle then, I wanted to come to Hanford was, in doing research for my thesis I kept running across these reports. They're very practical, down to earth, and just the kind of thing I like to do. [LAUGHTER] But Hanford wasn't really well known. In fact, one of my profs said, you know, you're going to go out and get a job one day. He said, you ought to go to Los Alamos or some other place, I don’t even remember. Never mentioned Hanford. Which was not extraordinary, because I had hardly heard of it myself. When I went to work for Livermore, we had a lot of plutonium there. And Hanford of course was the plutonium production place. And you naturally pick up things. And they ran this wonderful life sciences symposium. And that's when we came up. And that's when I had my first experience. And the guys from Hanford were just the kind of people that--down to earth, very nice that you could talk to. And I actually applied for a job, it was like 1966, and I didn't know the ins and outs, but the guy I talked to had just been demoted. [LAUGHTER] So, that didn't work out too well. But then a year or so later, that's when Harold Larson came up. But I really--the work that was done here was so different in a sense. The way it was done, it was more practically oriented. Another thing that it intrigued me about this place was, they not only did things differently, but in a lot of ways they were playing catch-up. In fact, maybe you should turn this off, but I'll say it anyway. After I'd been up here for a while I found that a lot of the workers were suffering from a terrible disease known as the Hanford syndrome, which was characterized by three symptoms. The first one was there will always be a government to take care of us. The second one was if it hadn't been discovered here at Hanford, it wasn't worth discovering. And that applied to all levels of things. And the third one was all change is bad. And I'm going to give you an example. It's kind of a fun example. I got a call one day when I had been here a few years and was managing the external dose group. And we bought all these portable instruments from a young engineer who had been asked to obtain what were called, cart poppies. These were not portable instruments, so I didn't have any—they were portable in a sense. They were a huge instrument in a cart. And the poppy referred to the fact that they would make popping noises when they measured alpha particles. And this was I think about 1968, or thereabouts. And he called me up and he asked, do you have the most current plans for the cart poppies? Because we're going to order some and the vendor wants the plans, obviously. And I said, oh, yeah. He said, oh good. The latest ones I can find are like 1956 or thereabouts. Maybe was earlier than that, I don't remember the exact year. And I said, well you've got them. And he was astounded. The arguments were just unbelievable, but basically it was, they worked. We won't change them. He finally ended up ordering 30 of them for $30,000 plus a copy. $1 million. I could have purchased for him, on the open market commercially, a transistorized unit that did everything the cart poppy did, better, and did a heck of a lot more also, for about $300 a copy. [LAUGHTER] But the mentality of a lot of the old timers was such that that was the way it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So was that one of the challenges that you found then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: That was a big challenge for me. Because here I was tasked with upgrading the instrument pool. And how do you get people to change? We've always done it this way. Little things, this instrument's been proven. But we did it. We did it. And that led to--after I left that job and others took it over, they built on that. And now everything is commercial. Not that commercial is better than what you do yourself, particularly if you have a special need, but saved the government a lot of money. Saved the taxpayers a lot of money. And so that mindset has been pretty much gone. But it was really, really strong here. And I remember just one thing that I had in mind. I wanted to change the neutron monitoring instruments. Neutron monitors in those days were big heavy things. And what we used at Hanford was a device that required two separate measurements you carried—it had a handle with a big thing of polyethylene and another instrument package. And you had to take two measurements. It wasn't very good and it wasn't very accurate. The Swedes had developed an instrument we call a REM meter because it actually measured the REM, or biological dose—dose rate. And the Navy was using them. And that's what I wanted to replace these with. I got more static from my own staff. The guys won't use them, this, that and other thing. This was proven, we did it here, and it's wonderful and so on and so forth. But we put them in and now they only need one measurement. And granted, it was big and heavy, but people loved them, because you turn it on and you got a measurement. You didn't have to interpret anything. So there was a lot of resistance to change. And over the years I've thought of that. One has to be very careful. You can't come in, as some people have, well, this is the way we did where I used to work. Well, that doesn't wash. You have to really demonstrate it. Actually, I think what I did was I bought two of these Navy type instruments. Sent them out to the 100 Areas. Try these guys and see if they work. And they loved them. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: That's a great example, yeah. One of things obviously that happened was that the site at some point shifted from a focus on production to focus on clean up. Did that impact you in any ways--your work at all, or not? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Not really because I was working at the registries and on other projects that didn't involve cleanup. Although, Mount St. Helens--do you have a few minutes? Okay. The Mount St. Helens eruption was something else. It happened on a Sunday. Actually when it happened, I was in the bathroom, I think. It was in the morning. And I got up late Sunday morning. I think I was brushing my teeth actually [LAUGHTER] when I heard this tremendous bang. And I thought, jeez, my wife must have dropped something in the kitchen. So I yelled out to her and she said, oh, it was a sonic boom. We had neighborhood event, and everybody was—a potluck. And a couple hours later we were walking to the neighborhood event, it was getting dark. [LAUGHTER] There was stuff falling out--if you want some ash, I can give you some ash. But it's very, very interesting. And this will show you my relationship to Harold Larson too. We learned what happened. Well some Battelle scientist talked to a newspaper, I think the Washington Post it may have been, but he talked to a newspaper in the East. And he said that Mount St. Helens had released more radioactivity than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. Just natural radioactivity, which was not correct. Incidentally that morning, there's a lot of dust and so on, and fallout. A lot of interesting things about that that you never hear. The fallout, the lighter pieces carried further, but the fallout at the Yakima airport was very thick and heavy. They had to clear the runways—or, runway I guess. And one of the ideas proposed was to use electromagnet because the fallout contained so much iron that you could actually pick it up with a magnet. There were a lot of other things. There was also a guy who the following day got on the horn, he was driving to work, and he had picked up some ash. And when he got out to the 100 Areas where he worked, I guess he stuck on a counter and came up with the idea that was loaded with radium. Just loaded with radium. He didn't measure the radium directly, he measured the daughter products and back calculated. And that doesn't give you the right answer. He called on one of the radio stations to tell all of the people coming to work to roll up the windows in their cars. I mean this is the kind of--even scientists screw up. In any event, that and the statement of that other scientist about more radioactivity led to a lot of concern. And the President the United States was coming to Portland, I think, to give a campaign speech. And that was Jimmy Carter, by the way. Harold Larson came into my office and said, I want you call DOE right away. Air Force One has some questions. [LAUGHTER] Now that's pretty big because I'm just a little town guy. I mean, really. And I told them that there were errors made in the calculation. And that there was not a huge amount of radioactivity. We had actually pulled some of our environmental monitoring samples and they just showed the normal amount. And the soil was exactly the same as the soil around here. The concentration of radium as was in the Mount Saint Helens eruption. So these people panicked. But anyway, I got to get my oar in. And there's my claim to fame that's never been documented except on this tape, if you keep it in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUTHER] All right, well, that's probably a good place to end. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay, I'm sorry. You get me wound up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: No, that's a great story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: There's a lot more that. Let me just quickly give you another piece of it. The guy that had made this pronouncement of all this radioactivity compounded the thing by saying that it was all due to radon. From the decay of radium, radon gas that had built up and created a lot of pressure and caused the explosion. That's just an impossible or very extremely unlikely scenario. We had given him our monitoring data and other things. And he wrote a paper for Science with about 40 authors and did not include any of us using all of our data. Scientists are sometimes not the most ethical and honorable people in the world either, much as I love them. But you know, think of lawyers. Occasionally the barrel has a good apple in it. But anyway, we had to do something. And you're going to interview Joe Soldat Joe and I and Dale Denham—I think you're going to interview Dale also and one other person. Anyway, we wrote a little note for Science calculating out the doses, which defused what they had done. So you wouldn't misinterpret what they had done. Get me off on ethics in science sometime and it's just— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: All right. I've taken all of your time. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1963-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-1999 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Selby, Jack Larson, Harold Seaborg, Glenn Gough, Jerry Benefiel, Gary Parker, Herb Bair, Bill Soldat, Joe Denham, Dale Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Kathren Description An account of the resource An interview with Ronald Kathren conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-9: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/7/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland(Wash.) Battelle(Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) 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General Electric Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdff2838652d98539e2d337d50bc2bb24.JPG ee6cb6157ca5d2dcadedfa2b78bd3f2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Palmer Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Ronald Palmer: Yeah. Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Ronald Palmer on October 26th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus on Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Ron about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Palmer: Ronald A. Palmer. R-O-N-A-L-D; A for Alan, A-L-A-N; Palmer, P-A-L-M-E-R. Franklin: Great. So, tell me how and why you came to the area and to work for the Hanford Site. Palmer: I came to work at the Hanford Site to work on glass for immobilization of radioactive waste. I came here in 1979, November, and worked in the 222-S Building out in the 200-West Area. Franklin: 222-S. Is there another name for that building? Palmer: It was next to the REDOX building. It was the laboratory that supported REDOX in the early ‘50s. Franklin: Okay. And what drew you to—or how did you become a glass person? Palmer: My technical background. Went to Alfred University in Alfred, New York. Earned a degree in Glass Science. My first job out of school was in Jersey City, New Jersey working for Metro Containers, a firm that made glass jars for beer bottles, mayonnaise jars—those kinds of things. As a quality control engineer, I mainly broke things. I got interested in why glass broke, why and how it fails, and in order to learn more about that, I went to graduate school and did a dissertation on fracture and failure of glass. My thesis advisor at the University of Florida was Larry Hench. Dr. Hench had been the chair for the National Academy of Sciences on what it is we thought we should do with radioactive waste. Turns out, if you put a glass guy in charge of figuring out what to do with nuclear waste, glass gets involved. So I wound up talking with the folks at the—the company running Hanford at that time was Rockwell. They asked me to come out and work on the glass project then. Franklin: How long did you work on the glass project? Palmer: I worked on the glass project for just a couple years. Then the funding for that disappeared, and I joined the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, the repository project that was going on at the time. Franklin: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Palmer: At the time, the Department of Energy was looking for an underground repository site to permanently dispose of the radioactive waste. There were other sites involved, but the basalt project was one looking at the geological formations underneath the Hanford Site as a place to store the radioactive waste. The basalt flows, which are basically the lava flows left over from the Cascade volcanoes. We built a laboratory in 2221—I’m sorry—2101-M Building in the 200-East Area. It had been a big warehouse and we built a laboratory there with electron microscopes, spectrometers of various types. We were basically a geochemistry laboratory. We were looking at the properties of the basalt rock underneath, in the formation underneath the Hanford Site and the relationship of the properties of those rocks with the glass compositions that we expected to make. So we did some experiments that involved glass and the rock, and simulated ground water, those kinds of things. Franklin: You mean storing glass in the rock, or--? Palmer: Well, the glass was expected to be the waste form. So, when you dispose of the waste, you put the waste form—which, what they’ve eventually done is they make the glass and they pour it into stainless steel canisters. The design we used were two foot in diameter by ten feet tall stainless steel canisters. So with the glass in there, you expect, after several thousand years—[LAUGHTER]—the canister has become compromised, and you worry about the reactions between the water, which may come in to the repository, and the glass, and the rock. Franklin: And so what did you find about that situation? Or can you describe a little bit more the work or the results of that work? Palmer: We were looking at ways to perhaps slow down the in-flow of water into the repository. One suggested method was to backfill the holes that you’d drill into the ground to put the canisters with a bentonite clay. The water would come in, and it would first see the clay, and the clay would have a tendency, when it gets wet, to swell, and to slow down—if not stop—the in-flow of the water, and therefore extend the life of whatever waste form you’ve put into the ground. So-- Franklin: Okay—oh, sorry. Palmer: So we looked at various options that we might design into the repository to minimize the eventual damage that you will expect to have happen from water coming into the repository. Franklin: So that clay, then, would kind of act to plug the leak of— Palmer: Yes. Franklin: Interesting. Palmer: The term we used for that would be engineered barriers. Franklin: Engineered barriers. Palmer: So you’d basically find materials that would help keep the water out, and design that—that would be an integral part of the repository design. Franklin: And were these results adopted here on the Hanford Site or elsewhere, or--? Palmer: The repository program—the basalt project continued, I think, until 1987. Let’s see. The original Act of Congress that was involved with nuclear waste was in 1982. And that provided for the investigation of three different repository sites. The basalt site underneath the Hanford facility; a formation of a material called tuff outside of Las Vegas, which is called the Yucca Mountain site; and they were looking at various salt formations in Texas and New Mexico and Louisiana and other places as a third potential site. By 1987, they had determined that it was too expensive to look at all three. It’s not cheap to do that sort of research. And they narrowed it down to the Yucca Mountain site outside of Las Vegas. So at that time, I think the other repository sites’ projects disappeared. I was gone from the project by then. I left the project in 1984, so— Franklin: Oh, okay. And where did you go when you left? Palmer: I went to—I was out of the nuclear waste business and went to 3M in Minnesota. Franklin: Okay. And what did you do there? Palmer: I did research on new glass compositions. In particular, a material called bioglass, another topic of research for my former professor, Dr. Hench. He invented a material called bioglass, which chemically bonds to bone in the body. And as now, it’s being used as a dental material. Not as a solid piece, but as a powder to help with the bone’s—recession of your bones if you’ve got gum disease and that sort of thing. You can place a powder of the bioglass, and then it will help the bone grow back a little bit. Franklin: Oh, wow, interesting. Palmer: It’s also being used in toothpaste to help fight gum disease and that sort of thing. So. But I did a little bit of that work for 3M, but not—I also worked on some composite materials that they were designing. Franklin: So now you’re kind of back in dealing with—later on, you returned to dealing with radioactive—nuclear waste. So can you describe that transition back? Palmer: I joined West Valley Nuclear Services—there’s a site that’s now called the West Valley Demonstration Project thirty miles south of Buffalo, New York. And I spent 15 years there. During that time, we tested a mockup of a glass melter and how we would run the process. And then built the actual melter and closed that in a hot cell where no one would go to work on it inside. So we had to make sure that the melter would operate remotely without having to send someone in. The West Valley site had only one tank of radioactive waste, compared to the 177 here at Hanford. So it was a fairly straightforward project. We were able to determine the chemistry of the waste in the tank, and that made it easy to just design one glass composition that we used. We made glass—we made radioactive glass from 1996 to 2002. And made 275 canisters—the canisters being two foot in diameter by ten feet tall. And those canisters are now stored—they remain at the West Valley site. Eventually they’ll go into a repository, assuming some repository is eventually made. Franklin: So did it take six years to vitrify—or sorry, I guess I should ask you—that process is vitrification, right? Palmer: Yes. Franklin: So that’s the right word to use? Palmer: Yes. Franklin: Okay, so it took six years to do that for one tank of waste? Palmer: We designed the process to be small and relatively slow. To fill a canister when everything was up and running smoothly was about two-and-a-half days. Whereas the facility running at Savannah River right now—Defense Waste Processing Facility, DWPF, they fill a canister in less than a day. At the Savannah River site, if I remember correctly, had 53 underground storage tanks. So they’ve got quite a bit more than we had at West Valley. And also a variety of compositions, so they had to change the glass composition as things went along. They’ve now made over 4,000 canisters since 1996. Franklin: Wow. So then it does really depend on the chemical makeup of the tank as to what type of— Palmer: Yes. Franklin: So which is why, I guess Hanford’s waste poses a problem in that aspect. Palmer: Yes, yes. Franklin: Because of the unknown nature of— Palmer: Yeah, and at Hanford there’s also a wide variety of compositions in the waste tanks. So the glass compositions can be very different. So you really need to know what’s coming in from the tank the next day in order to make the right mix of raw materials to make the right glass composition. And it’s tricky. Also, if you have to go from one composition to another, you have to know what you have in the tank before you add the new stuff, because the composition is going to change. It’s hard. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Do you think that vitrification is the right choice for Hanford’s waste, given its myriad of compositions in the tanks? Palmer: When Dr. Hench did his analysis of materials to use to immobilize waste in general, glass is clearly the most versatile. There are other waste forms. There are crystalline ceramic waste forms, there are composite waste forms—a wide variety of things that you can use to immobilize the waste. But the processes for those waste forms are much more complicated. It would be very difficult to, say, design a—one of the waste forms is called a tailored ceramic, where you design crystalline components of the ceramic to immobilize specific radionuclides and that sort of thing. It’s hard enough to do for one composition, but to do for 177 compositions, that would have been very difficult. The glass is clearly the most versatile. Is it durable enough? The expectation is that the glass—the waste form in the repository will stay—the radionuclides are supposed to stay within the repository boundaries for 10,000 years. That’s the bureaucratic boundaries that we have to design for. Some people say, yeah, it ought to be a million years. But who would believe us if we predicted a million years? [LAUGHTER] We have trouble believing ourselves when we’re predicting 10,000 years because it’s tough to run that experiment. From the standpoint of glass lasting that long, there are some researchers out there that have been looking at archaeological glasses that maybe may have been in the ground, say, 1,000 years. And try to look at what glass composition—what the glass started out as. In fact, somebody has done an experiment where they’ve excavated the dirt around the glass object and analyzed what is in the dirt that might have come from the glass leeching out and that sort of thing. They’ve also discovered in shipwrecks in the Mediterranean, glass bottles, amphoras, those kinds of things that have been at the bottom of the ocean for 1,000 years. And you can still drink wine out of them. [LAUGHTER] So we like to think if the folks 1,000 years ago made glass that lasts at the bottom of the ocean for 1,000 years, maybe we can on purpose design glass that will last for 10,000 years. Franklin: Interesting. Why was there the shift—so you started to—you came to work in glass immobilization, and then you said the funding for that program ended. Why was there that shift there in the late ‘70s, early ‘80s? Palmer: Well, if I remember correctly, the project I was working on was sort of under the table. [LAUGHTER] If I remember—the Pacific Northwest Laboratories—this was before it was a national laboratory—had the responsibility of developing the glass waste forms. And what we were doing was just a very small project compared with what was going on at Battelle Northwest at the time. I think somebody caught us doing that, and they said, you shouldn’t be doing that; that’s Battelle’s job. So they found something else for me to do. Franklin: Oh, right. So Hanford’s vitrification plant is in the news a lot and is kind of plagued by cost overruns and delays. Being a vitrification expert, is that kind of—I mean, I’m not looking for you to criticize them or anything, but is that kind of the norm? Should we have been prepared for how complex this process is? Do you think maybe that that wasn’t communicated or are there actual kind of real problems with the processes being instituted here, in terms of efficiency and actually handling the mandate? Palmer: I’m a little surprised it’s taken this long. I was back here after we finished the work at West Valley, I came out to the Project that was—let’s see, Bechtel had just taken it over along with—it was the Washington Group then. And I came out—the Washington Group was the organization that was running the West Valley Project, so we were brother organizations. So I came out to work with some of the folks in the group to try to put together procedures, figure out what we expected to have happen over the project. So I remember coming back here and I think I still have a bumper sticker that says Glass in 2007. [LAUGHTER] I probably got that in 2003. So I’ll hang on to that. For it to have gone out this long, I don’t know. I do know for having spent a lot of time at West Valley, the West Valley Site, instead of—well, here the Hanford Site is 570 square miles. The West Valley site is 200 acres. [LAUGHTER] The Department of Energy folks, who were our overseers, were right down the hall. They’re not miles away as they are out here. West Valley’s also in the same time zone as the DOE headquarters in Washington. It’s not 3,000 miles away and three time zones away. I think geography means a lot. [LAUGHTER] When you’ve got the folks you’re working with and have to solve their problems, when you’ve got them down the hall and you can talk to them day in, day out, it makes it so much easier to get the job done. And then when they can call their folks in Washington where things have to get done in a relatively straightforward manner, I think that helps quite a bit. So it’s the fact that Hanford is so big and it’s so far away from the people who ought to be thinking about it more. But they’re in Washington, DC—what do they care about what happens in Washington State. It really—it’s not primary in their minds. So you sort of get sent to the back of the room. Franklin: Oh. How does that compare, though, with—you said the Savannah River site has created about 4,000 canisters. How long has that process—has there been similar delays or situation there? How come that process is kind of up and underway—or can you describe—I guess my question is, can you describe the similarities or differences between what’s being attempted here and what’s being attempted at another large site like Savannah River? Palmer: Savannah River always seemed to have priority over Hanford. Probably because it’s closer to population. And the environment around the Savannah River Plant is a lot wetter--[LAUGHTER]—than the desert out here. So if the tanks leak out here, they leak into the desert. If they leak at the Savannah River Site, they leak into the Savannah River, which feeds several million people. So the Savannah River Site did get more attention in the early days. They’ve done a very nice job getting their plant up and running. We worked closely with them when I was at West Valley. We talked with them all the time in terms of their day-to-day almost troubles and tribulations. We designed—the melters were designed a little bit differently and the canisters were a little bit different. The West Valley canisters had a large mouth and it was a 16-inch opening. Pretty easy to hit the hole with the glass coming out of the furnace. The Savannah River canisters had a much smaller diameter hole and that led to different processes for welding the material shut. But we could compare notes in how you’d do that and how the melters worked. We were operating in parallel, I think—let’s see, if I remember right, Savannah River started their process up in March of ’96 and we started in June. Franklin: Okay, so you were doing the same thing at the same time. Palmer: Right. Franklin: So they’ve vitrified a lot of their waste, but there’s still no current long-term repository. Waste is still being stored at individual sites, waiting. So really, that’s kind of the other step of this process, right, is finding a—or what are your thoughts on that situation, on the—do we need one or two major long-term repositories to kind of collect all the waste in one area, or is better to keep it spread out at its separate sites? Palmer: It’s going to be wonderful when we get all the liquid waste out of the tanks and immobilized somehow. I’d like to think that—I’m a little prejudiced—that glass is the answer to that. And now that we’ve got the tank empty at West Valley and the material in glass, and Savannah River will get there eventually—they might be halfway through? I’m not quite sure how long they’re going to take to get it done. But it’ll be nice to have those canisters of high level waste somewhere, and the high level waste out of the ground. And with any luck it’ll happen here at Hanford, too. There’s no rush to get those canisters of glass into the ground. We expect that they’ll be stored safely somewhere in some kind of a building, some kind of a structure, that will keep the water out, keep the animals away and whatever else. So you kind of hope that that’s going to happen. And if there—there’s talk about reopening the Yucca Mountain project again. It was always kind of funny—everybody complains that they shut it down a few years ago, and that that was a political action. Well, picking Yucca Mountain was a political action in the first place. In 1987, when they decided to go to just one repository, if you look at the state of Nevada versus the state of Washington versus, say, the state of Texas, Nevada has the least number of representatives in Washington. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Ah, a-ha. Palmer: So it basically was a political act to create that there. So it doesn’t bother me that it was a political act to have shut it down. It may be reopened again. Harry Reid, who’s the senator who asked President Obama to shut it down—Harry’s retiring. So maybe it’ll reopen. I remember, maybe 25 years ago, I went to a PTA meeting, the New York State PTA meeting, and the national president was there. She was from Las Vegas. And I asked her about Yucca Mountain. She said, you and I need to talk. [LAUGHTER] She was not happy about Yucca Mountain, and she was amongst those who were really fighting against even looking at the site. There was a—let’s see. When I was in Minnesota, it was about 1985, I believe, the Department of Energy was looking at a potential second repository. They were looking, first of all, at those sites out west. And then they started to look at granite formations, say, in New Hampshire. The Canadian Shield, which is outstate in Minnesota. So there were folks agitating in Minnesota—oh, my god, they’re going to bring nuclear waste here. And I remember going to a meeting of the local congressman and hearing people shouting about it. And I sort of—on the way out, I mentioned to him, I said, why don’t you just let DOE come in here and discover that it’s really not the place to put it? One of the main things you need to worry about is how do you get all the materials that’s elsewhere to the repository? And the weather in Minnesota in the winter’s not so good. [LAUGHTER] It would make it difficult to bring material in. And in addition to the weather interfering with construction of the facility to begin with. So there were a lot of good reasons not to put it in Minnesota. So it was just a lot of fun to watch the action going on with the anti-nukes, locally, and as well as the people who might have been more in favor of it. I also remember there was—one of my colleagues at the basalt project was back in Boston. I think he was at MIT, giving a talk about the repositories. And he said he noticed some of the kids in the back were sort of dozing off when he was talking about repositories in Nevada and Washington and that sort of thing. And then he suddenly mentioned that—maybe in New Hampshire. And he said—the kids sat up and paid attention all of the sudden. It’s up the street. [LAUGHTER] In New Hampshire. Yeah. So it gets people’s attention when it’s close at hand. Franklin: It’s a real nimby issue. Palmer: Yes. Franklin: How did the work at Hanford—your work at Hanford—kind of inform your later work? Because you started your private sector career at Hanford, right? Palmer: Yes. Franklin: So how did that inform your later work? Palmer: One of the most important aspects of handling radioactive materials is a quality assurance program where you—those of us were doing research on the basalt project, our first thought was how do you do quality control, quality assurance on research? How do you ensure that your experiments are right? Because you’re supposed to be investigating unknown things, so maybe quality control, quality assurance, is too much controls on your process. When it first was imposed on us, we were very concerned about how we can do that. But then we talked to the folks who were quality assurance experts, and they said, oh, what we really have to do is control the process. Control—make sure if you’re using a particular instrument, a spectrometer, whatever, make sure it’s been calibrated, make sure it’s working properly, make sure you have standards to compare against your unknowns. So the quality assurance aspect of it actually made our work a whole lot better. We had to think about it a little harder, but that’s okay. [LAUGHTER] In fact, when I moved from here to 3M and did research there, I kept those thoughts in mind: okay, I need to do research on new materials, on new products, that sort of thing—but how do I set up my experiments so that I know I’m getting the right answers? Or defensible answers, if not the right answers. Franklin: Where at least you know the process is defensible. Palmer: And that turned out to be an important part of my work at West Valley. So learning that quality assurance was a good thing has been a big help to my later career. Franklin: Can you describe Hanford as a place to work? Palmer: [LAUGHTER] It’s a different place. It was first very strange to get out here and you see people on the corner waiting for the bus and everybody’s wearing a badge. That was a—coming, especially from a college campus—that was a very different experience. I guess I got used to it, but I wasn’t happy with the atmosphere that that sort of creates—having to wear a badge and that sort of jazz. And I remember when I was at 3M, there was somebody coming in and wanted to make everybody at 3M—I worked in their research facility in St. Paul, which was several dozen buildings. They wanted everybody to wear—somebody was coming in proposing that everybody at 3M wear a badge, for corporate security and that sort of thing. My opinion of that was that would change the atmosphere of the research park. Later in my career, I worked for Corning, Incorporated in Corning, New York, and they’ve taken it to an extreme, I think. [LAUGHTER] When you get up from your desk, you’re supposed to turn your computer off. Because even the guy next to you isn’t supposed to see what you have on your computer screen. And you have to wear a badge, and you need the badge to go from building to building. Or from parts of the building to other parts of the building. It created an atmosphere that I wasn’t happy with. I felt that it’s necessary at Hanford, where you’re working with hazardous materials all the time. But I wasn’t—I thought that in a corporate world, I thought it was a little bit of overkill. But the folks at Corning, Incorporated have decided that—[SIGH]—they need to have everybody keeping their mouths shut whenever they needed to keep their mouths shut. Although if you go out at night and you sit in a bar, and you listen to the guys talking at the table next to you, you might find out some things that you—[LAUGHTER]—you wouldn’t find out hanging around the quarters of the research park. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. What were the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Palmer: Most challenging, I think, was—some days, getting to work. Taking the buses out to work. Although that, eventually, once you get used to it, you get reading done on the bus. There was—for a couple of years, I lived in Kennewick, and I took a van pool. So I would get up in the morning walk to the corner, and pick up the van, and spend an hour and then spend another hour at the end of the night, coming home. At the time, I subscribed to two magazines: I subscribed to the New Republic, which was weekly, and on the left side of the political spectrum, and I subscribed to William F. Buckley’s National Review, which was every two weeks, and on the right side of the political spectrum. I was obscenely well-informed. [LAUGHTER] Because I read them cover-to-cover, because I had the van pool time day in and day out. I worked with a lot of interesting folks. And I’m spending this week here getting together with some old friends. Since we were done making glass at West Valley, a number of those folks are out here now. And about a dozen of us got together last night, and it was a lot of fun to see some folks that I hadn’t seen for ten years or so. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Palmer: The aspect of working on a project that the whole world thinks they know about—oh, nuclear waste. One of the things—the most common comment you get is, do you glow in the dark? And it doesn’t matter—that happens at technical meetings, that happens at PTA meetings, that happens on planes going back and forth. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It happens to me every time I go to a conference. At least once. Somebody thinks that they’re the first person that thought of that joke. Palmer: Yes. [LAUGHTER] So it does make for interesting cocktail party conversation. Because everybody has an opinion. Franklin: Yeah. Palmer: And—why don’t we just put it on a rocket and send it? Well, rockets never explode, right? Franklin: No! Palmer: [LAUGHTER] And even before Columbia and Challenger had their problems, I went to a meeting in Cocoa Beach, Florida down the street from the Cape, and remember talking to someone who worked at Cape Canaveral for a long time and some of the tests that they did. They had one rocket that they called the Titusville Express. Titusville is the next town over, and the rocket went up and hung a right, and fortunately went over the city of Titusville into the water. But that’s not what it’s designed to do. So if you put radioactive materials on those kinds of things, you’re going to make a mess in the water someplace or wherever it comes down. So one of those—a glib, easy answer to—the further away you are from the project, the more answers you have to solve it. That’s true in a lot of different ways. People have—oh, we can solve that problem. It’d be easy; just do this. Ah, well, no. [LAUGHTER] So that makes a lot of fun. And now, as we’ve been talking about now writing a book on the history of this topic, and it’s a lot of fun digging in the background and trying to figure out how people 100 years ago were treating radioactive materials. As they started to understand that, yeah, we ought to take into account time, distance and shielding and those kinds of things. It took a while for them to figure that out, and people got hurt, and died from not knowing. Franklin: Right. Palmer: And in some cases, though, I’m finding as I read more, there’s a lot of cases where they did know, but they just left the door open [LAUGHTER] on the cyclotron, that sort of thing. Some of the guys who were working on that were basically cowboys. They just treated it like your standard, old—oh, whatever’s going on in the laboratory, and okay. The stream of electrons in the cyclotron, if they left the door open, somebody was getting irradiated, but they didn’t think—you couldn’t feel it, so what’s the big deal? But you need to keep that door closed. It’s kind of funny to read about the people who—smart people, gone on to get wide renown in physics and that sort of thing—but they left the door open on the cyclotron because they didn’t figure it was a big deal. Or they were just careless. Franklin: Right, or maybe had a sense of invulnerability-- Palmer: Yes. Franklin: --when it came to their own mortality. Palmer: Physicists have a way of thinking they’re invincible. Franklin: Were there any major events that happened if the Tri-Cities while—I guess you only lived here for five years? Palmer: Yeah. Franklin: Were there any major events in the Tri-Cities when you lived here that stand out to you? Palmer: Mount St. Helens. Franklin: Oh. Palmer: It was May 18, 1980. And we had been watching—over the previous year, we would be able to see some of the minor eruptions that had been going on. And I think—if I remember right—it’s 160 miles from here. It was Sunday morning when it happened, and somewhere around 8:00 or something like that. My wife and I were in the grocery store. We were way in the back of the grocery store, and a friend came in and said, wow, did you see what the mountain did this morning? And—no. We’d been inside whenever it happened, and came out and you see these puffy clouds. It kind of looks like cauliflower. The ash falls in like pockets. That day everybody basically stayed inside, because our cars outside got covered with dust. I talked to a friend who went to work that day and took the bus out to the 200-West Area. And he said you couldn’t see the front of the bus from the back of the bus inside the bus. Franklin: Wow. Palmer: So it was a dusty day. They had just bought a new fleet of buses that were all air conditioned. The ash chewed up the air conditioning. So we didn’t have that new fleet of buses that summer, so we all rode un-air conditioned buses that summer. And a lot of people wore the face masks for most of the summer going out on the bus during that summer. Franklin: Oh, wow. So how—did that impact the work at Hanford at all? Palmer: I don’t know that it impacted the work to speak of. It certainly woke us up to Mother Nature’s power. I remember there was someone here who had—a photographer—who had been going back and forth to Seattle, and he would stop at the St. Helens area and take pictures. He’d gone over the Saturday before. I saw him give a presentation on this afterwards, so this is all secondhand sort of thing. He stayed—he decided he’d stay the night on the south side of the mountain. He took some wonderful pictures the day before from that particular angle. The next morning, it blew, and when it blew, he was facing south, away from the mountain. He didn’t hear a thing. Because the explosion went north and all the sound and all the ash went north. He was talking to somebody and the guy said, look around. He turned around and he could see the plume going off. And he went back to the same places where he’d taken pictures the day before, and had the same picture as the explosion is going on. So it was quite an opportunity for that guy to get those kind of photographs. Franklin: No kidding. Palmer: Then the police were coming through, chasing people out. You got to get out of here. Because the snowcap was melting and the floods—the Toutle River, I believe, was being overflowed. He had to get out of there in a hurry, although he kept stopping every once in a while, taking pictures. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: As any good photographer would. Palmer: Yes. And the cop would come and say, you’ve got to get out of here. And I remember we—later that summer, my father came out to visit. My father was an eighth grade science teacher. So we had a good time taking pictures and collecting ash for his science class and that sort of thing. We drove around the south end and came up Interstate 5 and saw the destruction from the flood, and drove over to where the Toutle River had washed out some small bridges. And you could see where—the river had gone down to its normal level, but you could see it was ten foot up on the banks, and then there was a mark about ten feet up in the trees above that where the water level had been. So it was mighty powerful. Franklin: Do you have any memories of the social scene or local politics or other insights into Tri-Cities life? Palmer: We were part of the Jewish community—Temple Beth Shalom. It’s a small temple. There’s not a whole lot of Jewish folks here. But they had been here along—from virtually the beginning of the Project. The temple was founded in 1950. When we were here around 1980, there were still people who were part of that founding organization. Franklin: Wow. I’m sorry, where was that located? Palmer: Thayer Street, south of Lee. Franklin: Okay. Palmer: I haven’t been there for a while, so it’s—and I understand they’ve remodeled it. So I’m not sure I would recognize—I think I would recognize the building if I were to drive down it, but I haven’t done that yet. I may do that later this week. There were quite a few interesting people who were part of that organization. There were chemists and engineers who worked out at the Site, and were also part of that organization. There were doctors in the local community who were part of that congregation. And I still have friends who are part of that here, and I expect to see them this week. We didn’t do a whole lot of other things. I was—it was just my wife and I when we came out here. We had a son—my wife’s named Ellen Goldberg Palmer. My son was born here. My older son, Michael was born August of ’82. So he has roots here, but I don’t think he’s ever been back. [LAUGHTER] So one of these days, we have to bring him back and see where he was born and that sort of thing. We later had a second son born in Minnesota. So my sons are connected to the two biggest rivers in the continent. One the Columbia, one the Mississippi. Although neither of them really remembers having been near them. They were both raised in Buffalo, so they don’t remember much about either Minnesota or Washington State. We were very much involved with the synagogue. There were also quite a few mixed marriages. I’m not Jewish. We decided we’d raise the kids Jewish, but that’s all right. That wasn’t a problem. But there were a lot of other mixed marriages as part of the synagogue. Because of the wide range of beliefs of the synagogue, it was always an independent organization. There are a variety of Jewish movements—the two major ones are Reform and Conservative. Reform being a little more liberal; a Conservative rabbi would never have married my wife and I, because they just don’t believe in that—in intermarriage. And we had some trouble finding a Reform rabbi that would do that. But the synagogue remained independent for many years. Until something—it was never clear to me exactly what happened. We took a vote and it was always 50/50, and they decided not to affiliate with either the Conservative or Reform movement. But then somebody decided, we really need to do something. So they had another vote, and it went Conservative. So they needed to have—they felt they needed to do something with the Sunday school and have some sort of official imprimatur of one of the movements. And that caused a split. [LAUGHTER] Especially among those of us who were mixed marriages. And we had a meeting a couple of weeks later in our house, mainly because we hadn’t had enough money to buy furniture for the living room yet, so we had a place where we could have lots of people meet and have chairs around. We actually created another synagogue for those of us who felt we should be more liberal than the conservative end of it. And that went on for a couple of years. I think it’s consolidated again. But I don’t know exactly what the status of the synagogue is now. So even amongst small congregations, you can have big divides. There’s a joke that somebody told me. They sent a Jewish astronaut to the moon to establish a community. And they ask him, why two synagogues? And he said, well, that’s the one I go to, and that’s the one I wouldn’t go to on a bet. [LAUGHTER] So you can always expect—three Jews in a room, you’ll have ten opinions. [LAUGHTER] But politics? I don’t remember much about—I wasn’t much involved in that. I was too worried about day-to-day working and family life. Because I was new at both. I didn’t worry too much about other things. But, yeah, Mount St. Helens was the big one, and our relationship with the Jewish community. That was the two big social parts of our life while we were here. Franklin: Okay. Could you describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Palmer: Not very much. The work we were doing was publishable. We did have to worry a little bit about the composition of the waste. I think some of that might have been proprietary. Because knowing what was in the waste would give information about what was in the material that created the waste, which was for plutonium to make bombs. So I think some of that information might have been proprietary. I didn’t have to worry about it because I didn’t work on that part of the business. I do remember, at the Battelle library in the 300 Area—which was a wonderful place to go; the books there were—it was just a fun place to look around—there was a room down the hall that you had to have special permission to go in that had a lot of the processing information that was proprietary. And I always wanted to go in there, but I don’t think—my clearance wasn’t high enough. We had Q clearances then, and I don’t think they even have that anymore out here. Franklin: Yeah, not to my knowledge. Palmer: But the secrecy aspect didn’t affect me very much. Franklin: How has the attitude towards nuclear waste disposal changed from 1979 until now? Both within the industry and without? Palmer: I think a lot more people know about it than before. Especially because of the national hullaballoo over Yucca Mountain. People worry about that a little more than they—they probably didn’t know they had to worry about it. [LAUGHTER] and suddenly there’s a big squabble over it, so, gee, maybe I should worry about this. The other facility that’s been in the news lately is the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in Carlsbad, New Mexico, WIPP. About two years ago there was an accident there. It was a small explosion underground and they needed to figure out exactly why it happened and now what can they do to prevent it from happening again. So I don’t think it’s up and running just yet. They’re still sorting out new procedures and that kind of thing. But, yeah, people are hearing about it more. I don’t remember anybody really—I mean, if I talked with old friends about nuclear waste in 1979, they’d say, say what? They really didn’t know what was going on and they had no idea of where the materials were located. But nowadays, they do worry about it more. There are folks with the nuclear power plants, we all know that there are the spent fuel being stored at all the nuclear power plants and folks are starting to be aware that—is this the right thing to do? There may be—it seems to take time for people to want to solve problems. [LAUGHTER] It’s just—it’s like the kids in the MIT classroom. Okay, that’s Washington State, I don’t need to worry about it. You know, wait a minute, it’s in New Hampshire; maybe I do need to worry about this. And if you suddenly realize that, yeah, that nuclear power plant down the street? Okay, there’s no radioactivity coming from it, but there is this other stuff that maybe can cause a problem. Franklin: There’s spent fuel being stored there in the area that wasn’t designed as permanent storage for it. Palmer: Right, right. Franklin: How has the approach to nuclear waste disposal changed from 1979 until now? Or has it? Palmer: I don’t know that it has. I’d like to think we’re smarter about it. I’d like to think that we have better solutions for it now than we did then. Franklin: Such as? Palmer: The immobilization processes. Eventually we’re going to have to ship the materials from one place to another. They’ve done tests on shipping casks and designed them so that they’re not going to fail. And there are folks who are still working on new designs for shipping, say, spent fuel—I’m sorry, I think it’s called used fuel now—from reactors where they’re stored now to—there may be some intermediate storage facility, or some permanent storage facility. I suspect that we may eventually go to some kind of an intermediate storage facility. And where that would be is a hard question to answer. They’re now looking at the process of siting a repository at—I forget exactly what the buzzword is for it, but it’s basically an informed—that’s it—informed consent of the community. For instance, in order to site the WIPP project at Carlsbad, New Mexico, they basically got buy-in from the community. From the mayor to the chamber of commerce, to the local citizens. There are other folks in the state of New Mexico who would rather it not have been there. But they live in Albuquerque, and that’s a couple hundred miles away. So now you worry about, what do you define as community? Is it the people who live in Carlsbad? Is it the people who live in New Mexico? Is it the people who live in the Southwest? So the concept of informed consent is absolutely necessary. But defining it is very hard to do. Franklin: Right. Because you don’t always get to choose—as a project planner you don’t always get to choose who has buy-in or who feels like they should. You don’t get to exclude some people just based off of your own—they get to choose whether or not they feel— Palmer: Yeah, and in the past, we’ve done horrible things where we just ignored people. There are places in the Southwest where they had uranium mines. And downstream from the uranium mines were the Navajo. There were—I’ve read somewhere, I’m assuming it’s true—is that there was never cancer in the Navajo Nation until there was uranium mill tailings nearby, coming in the water supply from upstream. The informed consent, will hopefully help us not ignore some people who ought to be part of the process. Franklin: Right. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Palmer: We tried. We tried really hard to do the right things. I do remember—hmm—early ‘80s, Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980 as President. He was a little more hawkish than Jimmy Carter before him. I got promoted to a manager’s position, and I got invited to—the vice president of the Site, who every once in a while got new managers together to give them a little lecture and welcome to management. [LAUGHTER] And I remember him saying something about—yeah, Reagan’s going to put us back to work. We’re going to build more bombs and do all that sort of thing. And I think I said at that point to myself, I got to get out of here. [LAUGHTER] Because if that was going to be the attitude—I mean, cleaning up the mess is one thing; building new stuff that goes boom in the night? Nah, I didn’t want any part of. And that was—some of the reputation that those of us who worked at Hanford is that, you know, yeah, we want to make more bombs. No, a lot of us are here because there’s a mess to clean up. And we were chemists of all kinds of varieties who wanted to know: okay, what is it that we have to do to make this not a problem anymore? And it’s a good intellectual problem to try to solve, and an engineering problem to solve. And we don’t want to make new things that disrupt the community. We want to take care of the mess. Franklin: What about the—there’s kind of an inherent contradiction in there, though, right? In that you find joy in solving the problem and fixing the problem, but without the bombs—without the desire to make the bombs, we wouldn’t have the waste to clean up, and you might not have come here. You’re certainly—your life, part of your life’s work is encapsulating waste, which—there is waste from energy plants, but you seem to have spent much more time dealing with waste from production plants. So I understand maybe not wanting to see new—more new waste being produced, but that’s kind of an interesting relationship that I think you have with waste. Palmer: Yes. I wasn’t around to make the decisions in the first place. I’d like to think that I’m around to make some personal and professional decisions now. Let’s say, when you go to the grocery store, you have these plastic bags. I—in the back of my car—I always have with me the reusable fabric bags when I go to the grocery store. Franklin: Yeah, me too. Palmer: So I don’t create the mess in the first place. I think that may be one thing that I’ve learned, looking at the history of what we’ve done with radioactive materials and radioactive waste, specifically, is that we could have done better if we’d have just thought about it a little bit. There’s new problems all the time coming on. There’s new industries coming on. Genetically designed organisms—genetically engineered organisms, those kinds of things. There’s nanomaterials. All these are new industries, and we hope that they’re thinking about the potential for problems. Having worked a little bit with some of the folks in the nanoparticle business, they were looking at those problems from the beginning. When they’re designing their materials, especially in the ceramics field. I know people who were there, at the beginning of designing new materials, and they were absolutely looking at potential harm that the materials might do. Franklin: Do you think that same kind of forward-thinking was there at Hanford, during the World War II or Cold War, but that the importance of the initial mission overweighed concerns about the legacy of nuclear waste? Palmer: Yeah, they were in a hurry. So cleaning up garbage was, at best, a second thought. They got it out of the way, and put it somewhere where it wasn’t going to bother anybody for a while. They’ll worry about it later. And it took them a while for later to show up. They suddenly noticed—I think it was about 1973, when they noticed, oh, there used to be 100,000 more gallons of waste in that tank than there is now. I wonder where it went. That was also the time when organizations were created to look at environmental issues. The EPA was founded in—what, I think it was about 1970? It was one of Nixon’s— Franklin: That sounds about right. Palmer: One of the good things that Nixon did. EPA and OSHA for that matter. I remember doing things as an underground in the laboratory that you cannot do now. I mean, using benzene to clean glassware. Not going to happen now, but it happened in the ‘60s as a routine thing. That’s how you cleaned the glassware, was boil it in a pot of benzene, because it did a nice job of cleaning the surface of Pyrex. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I’m sure it did. Palmer: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. Palmer: Yeah. That was another thing, is that I probably got exposed to more dangerous materials working in a chemistry lab than I did working in a radioactive lab. [LAUGHTER] I know we took care of doing things in 222-S. Although there were some laboratories I didn’t really want to go into. [LAUGHTER] But you learn how to do good science and good laboratory experiments from the folks—the woman who worked with me as a lab technician, Sadie Kunkler, had been there since before I was born [LAUGHTER] in that laboratory. She started working there in 1950. So she had 30 years of experience of how to work in a laboratory, and how to— Franklin: This was here at— Palmer: At Hanford, in 222-S. She taught me a lot, an awful lot, in terms of how you work in a laboratory. There were parts of laboratory experiments that I was not competent to do. [LAUGHTER] But she was very, very good in the laboratory in terms of making sure things were clean. And when you’re doing experiments where you’re trying to measure small amounts of material being leeched out of a glass with water, everything needs to be clean. The water has to be pure. If you’re looking at dissolving glass, it’s mainly sand, silica. If you know anything about the dust that’s in the air, it’s also sand. So your materials—in order to do a proper experiment, you need to keep the dust out. Otherwise, your experiment is not going to be a— Franklin: Well, you have to purify your water, too, so there’s no silica in the water. Palmer: Right, right. Franklin: Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to talk about before we—? Palmer: We covered a lot of stuff that I hadn’t thought about in a long time. [LAUGHTER] Thank you. Franklin: Yeah, thank you. Palmer: I’m going to be talking to some other old friends this week, and I will—I think you know some of them. Steve Buckingham is one who’s been part of this program. Michael Kupfer is another one that I worked with at 222-S. I hadn’t—I called him yesterday, and he wasn’t sure who I was—again? What? We haven’t talked in—I haven’t talked to him in over 30 years. So, we’re going to get together and talk some more. And I’d like—Mike was here and had some very interesting experiences in the lab, working in glass and other projects. I think he might have some interesting things to say. There was one thing I think that actually got me the job. Working with glass at high temperatures is a tricky thing to do and one of the crucibles that you use is platinum. When I was in graduate school, somebody in the laboratory was making glass and used, as a centerplate in the furnace, silicon carbide. Silicon carbide can take the heat okay. But if you happen to drip a little bit of glass on the silicon carbide centerplate and have it next to the platinum crucible, the platinum crucible will dissolve. What happened in this particular case, the guy left the crucible with glass in it in the furnace, and he came back several hours later and it was gone. You allow the furnace to cool and you take out the centerplate, then you can see a ring of platinum that had been the crucible. It was now part of the centerplate. When I came out to Hanford, and went out to dinner with the folks who were interviewing me, they mentioned that they had a problem—they weren’t sure what happened. They had a bunch of—maybe half a dozen crucibles on a centerplate. And some of them dissolved. They caught it before they were all disappeared, so I eventually got to see it. But some of the crucibles had been eaten away. Because I had that experience before, my response was, oh, you used the silicon carbide centerplate. And they said, yep. And I think that got me the job. The fact that I had had that experience and so—that was the kind of experience they were looking for. Someone who would not make that mistake. Because those little platinum crucibles are, you know, 1,000 bucks a piece or more. Franklin: Yeah, that’s not a cheap material to work with. Palmer: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Kind of a happy accident, huh? Palmer: Yeah. Well—a happy experience for me to have that available in my list of things that I’ve done. Franklin: Yeah, especially during an interview. Well, great, well thank you so much, Ron. It’s been a great interview. Palmer: It’s been good, thank you. Franklin: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/81_pUoreaDo">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:16:48 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 2-East Area 300 Area K-West Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1979-1984 2007-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1979-1984 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Palmer Description An account of the resource An interview with Ronald Palmer conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10-26-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. 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Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/19">Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata</a> 2-East Area 300 Area Battelle Bechtel Cold War Container Containers Department of Energy Event Hanford K-West Area Kennewick Mountain River Savannah River Street Sun War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F75d4c48e22a823be3c8201187aa8bf1f.JPG 9847fdca52aa3d6cfeb9de442e0bb5cb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbc0ea9d7388e81ef7b211dcdbaa2b441.mp4 c657aa51f7cecbac79024634eabba201 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rose Allen Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Rose Allen on January 12th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Rose about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Rose Allen: Rose Marie Allen, R-O-S-E, capital-M-A-R-I-E, capital-A-L-L-E-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Rose. And tell me, when and where were you born? Allen: I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1931. Franklin: Okay. And how old were you when you came to the Tri-Cities? Allen: When I came to the Tri-Cities, I was 23. Franklin: Okay. And why did you come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: My cousin, Virgie Robinson, was here, and she sent for me to come and work in her diner. She had a diner. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: So I came to work in her diner while she went on vacation. Franklin: Where was the diner located? Allen: On Queen Street. We had a little street over by the railroad tracks, and it was called Queen Street, and the diner was called the Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Okay. Why did you choose to come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: My cousin invited me, and I wanted to get out of Arkansas. Franklin: Why did you want to get out of Arkansas? Allen: I did not like Arkansas, because I was living out in the country, and I did not like it. Franklin: Okay. And do you remember—that would have been the early ‘50s, then, right, when you moved out of— Allen: Yeah. Franklin: --Arkansas. What was it—I wonder if you could describe the difference between Arkansas and Pasco. Allen: Well, I married at much too young, and there I was, out in the woods with my children. I had children much too young, but I was married. And I just didn’t like it. My cousin asked me—she came in to the city there, and she asked me if I wanted to leave, and I told her, yes. She said, if I send for you, will you come? I said, yes. Franklin: Was your first husband out of the picture by the time— Allen: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So you were a single mother— Allen: Well, I was still married. Franklin: Okay. Allen: But we weren’t together. Franklin: Okay. So you were kind of effectively a single mother, then. Allen: Yeah, yeah, technically. Franklin: How were you supporting your children in Arkansas? Allen: Oh, he would come and he would buy groceries, you know, and things at the little country store down the street and everything like that. So, we weren’t without things. I just didn’t like it. Franklin: Right, oh, I understand. Do you remember what the diner was called? Allen: Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Queen Street Diner, okay, thanks. What were your first impressions of Pasco when you came? Allen: Well, I started working for my cousin the first day I got here. I didn’t get a break. [LAUGHTER] So I really didn’t get a chance to see the Tri-Cities. So, I was basically, right there in her yard there; she had a big house and a rooming house, and her diner was a trailer. It was a trailer. I liked it. You know, I liked it when—I liked it a lot better than I did out there in the country. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Was Pasco an integrated city at that time, or was it segregated? Allen: It was segregated. It was segregated, yeah. Franklin: And where did African Americans predominantly live in Pasco? Allen: On the east side. Franklin: On the east side, and what was the divider? Allen: The bridge. Franklin: The bridge? Allen: Mm-hmm, the Lewis Street Bridge. Franklin: Okay. And what was the hardest aspect of life to adjust to when you moved to Pasco? Were there any challenges for you? Allen: No, I was so glad to get out of Arkansas and so I—every challenge I had, I enjoyed. Franklin: Oh, okay, So overall, it was just a much better— Allen: Much better for me. Franklin: Did any of your other family come to move here with you, or visit you in the Tri-Cities? Allen: I didn’t bring my boys the first time I came. My mother kept them for me. Nobody came to see me; it was just me and my cousin and her children and everything like that. And then I met the gentleman that was going to be my second husband. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: Right here. And we stayed there until the Lord called him home. Franklin: How did you meet him? Allen: I was working in our—her Queen Street Diner. And he was a customer. And we found out some things that we had in common, like our birthdays: mine was the last—mine was in February, and his was in January on the same day. Franklin: Oh, wow. Allen: And that was just our little talking start there. Franklin: Sure, like kind of like small talk and flirting. Allen: Right. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community of east Pasco when you moved here? Allen: Well, my cousin, she had a rooming house that was attached to her little thing that she sold the food out of. So I had two rooms there in her rooming house. That’s how I lived. And then when she closed—when it closed down, then I got me a job two blocks down the street at Jack’s Tavern. Franklin: Okay. Allen: And then I worked there. Franklin: Is that still there? No? Allen: No. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember any particular community events in—at that time, or after? Allen: Well, it would’ve been mostly Christian—church activities. And you know, working in the tavern like I did, they’d turn on the jukebox and people danced or something like that. But I didn’t remember any other kinds of events, you know. Might have been something else going on, but that was the thing that had the most going for it. Franklin: Sure. Allen: Was the tavern at the time. Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about the role of the church in the community there. Allen: Yes, I think the church was very strong in the community. We had several outstanding churches that are still churches in the community. There was—did you want me to call off the names of them? Franklin: Sure, yes, please. Allen: St. James. St. James was a Methodist church, and that’s the church that we all went to until I decided to go Baptist. And then I went to Morning Star Baptist Church. So those were the two—St. James and Morning Star Baptist. And then, later on, New Hope Baptist came, and then Greater Faith. And those are the churches that are standing as we speak. Franklin: Okay. And those are kind of like focal to the African American community— Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: --and east Pasco, right? Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you end up—when did you end up getting your own place? Allen: Well, when I married. [LAUGHTER] When I remarried. You know, we had to go through a period of time when you had to save up some money to get a divorce. So when we married, we rented a house at first. And then we saw the house that we bought, we purchased, over on Lewis Street. At the time before, it was a veteran’s hospital. Franklin: Oh, wow. Allen: Right, and then they cleaned it up and everything, and it was a house, a regular house, right on Lewis Street. And that’s where we moved from going over to the west side. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if—what can you tell me about the housing in east Pasco? Was it comparable with the housing in Kennewick and Richland? Allen: Well, I think—to me, it was, because I really didn’t—I didn’t know any better. So we had this house, and it was on the corner directly across the street from the East Side Market and that was a store that we all enjoyed going to. And then across the street, the school—I can’t remember the name of the school—but it was a school directly across the street from my house that my children started from—the ones that were in that level. Franklin: Hmm. I’ve read and done research that water and sanitation was sometimes lacking in east Pasco in the ‘50s; some houses didn’t have full utilities. Do you recall that at all? Allen: No. Wherever—the two houses that I lived in over there besides my cousin’s place. No, we had water. Now, her place, she had a septic tank. She had septic, whatever it’s called. But when I moved away from her house, then we had regular—I guess it was city water. I never had any trouble with it. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Yeah, we never had any trouble with it. And then the house up on Lewis Street that we moved out of, we had what we needed in the line of water. It was city water, obviously. Franklin: Right. What were your interactions with people from Richland, Pasco or Kennewick like? Allen: Well, I’ve never been a person that had problems talking and laughing with other people. I didn’t try to hang on over there, because I was told that we wasn’t supposed to be over there after dark. So I wouldn’t go over there in the daylight, either. Franklin: Was that kind of a formal law, or kind of like—because you said you were told you weren’t supposed to go over there after dark, and I’ve heard things about that. Was that a formal or kind of an informal prohibition? Allen: I don’t know what that was all about, but I do know that my boyfriend that I married, he was over there, and it was dark, and they held him. He called me and said, if you don’t come get me, I’m going to have to spend the night. Franklin: In jail? Allen: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, wow. And you said over there, you mean in— Allen: In Kennewick. Franklin: In Kennewick. Allen: Yeah, over in Kennewick. It was dark, and they caught him over there. He hadn’t got to the Blue Bridge. Franklin: Wow, was he driving, or was he— Allen: He was driving. Franklin: And they pulled him over? Allen: Some—I don’t know what they did, but the next time I knew where he was, he was at the police station. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did they charge him with anything? Allen: I don’t think so. I don’t remember him—he probably had to pay a fine for being over there after dark. I don’t—we didn’t talk about it, because it was silly. Franklin: Right. But you were made to feel unwelcome. Allen: Oh, yeah. That was the main thing. Franklin: When did that begin to change? Allen: Well, I really can’t—because some of the stuff, it’s just kind of like changed when they put the highways in that we didn’t have before, you know. So we didn’t really have to go over the Blue Bridge to get to them; we could go different places. So as we—as time moved on, we got in with the rest of the world. [LAUGHTER] Things just, you know, started shaping up, because when they put out that the government wanted to buy up some houses over there on the east side, because they wanted to put a business district in there or something. I asked the man, the realtor, I told him—well, I had told him, can I be one of the first ones to move out? I said, so where am I going to move to? I said, can I go to the west side? And the man said—I said, will they sell me a house over on the west side? He said, if they want to sell that house, they better sell it to you. And so that was the thing that let me know that somebody was dealing with it, you know. So I didn’t—we didn’t have any trouble getting a house on the west side. Franklin: Oh. Do you remember around what time that would have been? Allen: You know, time—I told you that time—things like that escape me. But that would have been—hmm, let’s see. My baby girl was five. So that would have been 50 years ago. Franklin: Okay, 50 years ago. So the late—mid-to-late ‘60s. Allen: Probably so, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Because I managed to buy me a house up off of 20th across from Robert Frost School. And they had the overpass where I—I liked it, because my children didn’t have to cross the street. There was a park and an overpass. So my children never had to cross the streets down there; they could just go over the overpass, and they’d be at Robert Frost School, or the high school right down about five blocks down the street. And they never had to get on the freeway. Because the highway was 20th Street at the time, until just about three years ago they took that thing down—the sign down—the crossing. They took it down. But I liked it, and my cousin lived across from Mark Twain School. She had a beautiful home right there, directly across. So we got some nice houses. Franklin: That’s wonderful. But before then, you wouldn’t have been able—when you first moved here, people weren’t allowed—there was just, people wouldn’t sell a home in west Pasco to an African American, right? Allen: No. Franklin: No. The realtors wouldn’t and the— Allen: I guess not. Franklin: Did you hear of anybody trying early on? Allen: No, I really didn’t, because I did a lot of working and taking care of my kids and everything. A new marriage, and more babies. I did it all—you know. But I do know that—I liked my location right there where I was, right there on Lewis Street, and like I said, directly across from a store, East Side Market—that was a nice big store—and directly across the street from the school. So that was really good. Franklin: You had everything right there. Allen: It was right there of course, yeah. And then when we went down under the underpass, they had a nice town section then. Very nice town section. Franklin: Did your children, either the older or younger, did they experience any kind of segregation or racism in their education? Allen: No, they did not. In fact, you know, I was telling the lady that I was with, I have the one son, he was going to Pasco High School, and everything that he would join, they made him the president. So he’s charmed, to this day. And Mr. Gregson, who was the principal at the time, requested that he go to West Point, which I had never heard tell of. I didn’t know what a west point was. But they told me, one of the finest colleges in the world. And so when they referred him there, then it was—I don’t know how he—what happened, but anyway he managed to get to go to West Point. And it made me cry, because, like I was saying, I never even heard tell of a west point. I didn’t know what it was. And then that’s when they told me it was one of the finest colleges in the nation. And my son got to go—he graduated from there, and his son graduated from there. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s great. Allen: Yeah. Franklin: What was your own education like? How far did you— Allen: I went to the tenth grade, because I married much too young. And so, when I was in tenth grade, I married. But after I had raised all of my children, I went back to school. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Okay, and I got my GED and then I got my degree from Central Washington State College. I got a teaching certificate—I taught. So I taught for 20 years. Before then, I was a home visitor. I was a home visitor for seven years, and I taught for 20 years at—I taught at Mark Twain Elementary School and Ruth Livingston out on Road 100. Franklin: What is a home visitor? Allen: Well, you go and find out why children aren’t at school, or do they need something? Because, you know. So you were just a soldier for the children, to help to get them out, or find out why they’re not coming to school or what. And we had a card where we could take them over to Grigg’s if they didn’t have the clothes. Because a lot of time, the parents would be out in the fields working and they just couldn’t. And we could get them two pair of jeans and things to go with it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Was that primarily African American children that you were working with? Allen: Mm-mm. Franklin: No, it was all— Allen: Whoever needed it. Franklin: Whoever need it. Allen: Whoever needed it: we had white, Mexican, black, you know. Franklin: That’s really amazing that you had to leave high school at tenth grade—or you made it through and then you later went back to get everything and teach. Allen: Yeah, right out of here, CBC. This is not the same CBC I went to. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know where in the world these beautiful buildings and things came from, because the school I started looked like a big rooming house. [LAUGHTER] But it’s okay. It’s where I went to. Franklin: Right, well, it seems to have done you pretty well. Allen: I’m grateful for that. But I had a family to raise first before I could go back to school. Franklin: Right. Allen: So I went—at 45 is when I got my degree. I was 45. And that gave me my 20 years’ teaching. And I was already working while I was going to school; I was a home visitor. Franklin: Wow, never too late, right? Never too late. That’s great. You also started working onsite—you worked at the Hanford Site. Allen: Yes. Franklin: At a point, too, right? What did you do at the Hanford Site? Allen: When I got hired there, the man took me into the building, and I was in downtown Richland—Uptown Richland, I guess. I worked at a place called U.S. Testing. The gentleman took me and he introduced me to people. And then he took me and sat me down, he told me, he said, I want you to be able to replace whoever’s not here. He said, I want you to just kind of be a stand-in. He said, so I would like for you to spend some time with the various offices that we have in here, so that if somebody is missing and we need help, you can come. That went from being a secretary on down. So I—that’s what I did. I worked with various people in the dark room; I worked with them in the labs; you know, I worked—so I got an opportunity to work with everybody, and then I also drove in the truck that you go and pick up the buckets off the people’s porches. I would go from Pasco to Yakima, Pasco to Walla Walla—you know, various places. Franklin: When you say bucket, do you mean the bioassay kits? The urine— Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: --and fecal matter— Allen: Yes, whatever was in it. Franklin: Right. Allen: I didn’t know—I didn’t have to open it. I’d just take it off the porch and put it in the truck. Franklin: And then place a clean one. Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah, if it needed to be. Franklin: And how long did you do that for? Allen: For—I think I worked out there about six years. Because I got sick. I got sick. They had told me to—I don’t know what was in it, but they had told me to wear—they had a couple of us—to wear a certain outfit that they had for us to put on. I don’t know—I think I would have not done it now, because after I wore it, it wasn’t too long before I got sick. They told us to keep it on. So I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you what it was. But they insisted that we keep it on for that full day and night and wear it. So, I don’t know what happened. But I know I got sick, and I was in the bed for a year. Franklin: And—for a year? Allen: Yes, I had to go to the doctor. They—my boss met me up in Seattle as I got off the plane, and took me over to, I think it was Virginia Mason Clinic. Franklin: Wow. Allen: And I was there, and we went another someplace else. They was checking my whole body to find, I have no idea what. Nobody ever explained to me what that was. But I—that was the end of my working out at Hanford, because it was just too spooky for me, you know. Franklin: Right. Allen: And I caught a picture of myself of working in a chimney, where all the steam and stuff go up and I was in there scrubbing it. But I didn’t have on a mask or anything like that. So I wasn’t getting the right training for it, because they shouldn’t have let me in there. But anyway, I got sick and I was in the bed for one year, yeah. My husband had to put my bed in the living room so I could be with the family. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Mm-hmm. And I don’t know what that—the material was that those clothes were made of, or if it had anything to do with it. I just know that that’s the difference. I’d never seen anything like it before. It was a couple of us, and I don’t know who the others were, but it was a couple of us that did that. But other than that, I just kind of like worked around in that building. Whatever somebody else was doing and they weren’t there, then I would either learn how to do it or do it. Franklin: What was the office environment there like? Did you face any kinds of discrimination? Allen: Yeah, at first I did. When I first went there. But then for some reason, the lady that was in the darkroom, she didn’t want me there. And for some reason, she met me one day, and she was crying. And she hugged me. And she begged my pardon, you know, and everything like that. Because she was saying, she ain’t coming in here! And then something happened. Franklin: Did she ever tell you what happened? Allen: No, but she just was very nice to me. And she said, I’ll tell you what I know about the darkroom. And everybody ended up being just very, very nice to me. It was that first thing that they didn’t—I guess they didn’t know—maybe they thought I was mean. I don’t know. Franklin: Did you—how many other African Americans were working onsite then? Was it pretty—still pretty uncommon? Or did you work with any other African Americans? Allen: No, I worked downtown, Richland. I don’t know what is the downtown, Uptown, anyway, but right behind Safeway. I didn’t—no. There was no more in there. People would come and get their body counts and stuff on the other side, and I was in the lab side. Franklin: Okay. How did the civil rights movement affect the Tri-Cities and your life? Allen: In my lifetime? Well, you know, when you got eight children at home, you don’t get out of the house too much except to go where you’re going and get back home really quick. But I didn’t think it—I had been in segregation, down South, in Little Rock, Arkansas. I never saw a sign like the ones that I saw in the South. Because down in the South, they would say, blacks to the back, and all kinds of stuff like that. They had them signs. And waitress wanted, white only, or waitress wanted, black only. That’s how they—elevator operators, because that’s what we did at the time. Now you do your own elevator, but at that time, they wanted either a darker black or a lighter black. You know? Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Light-skinned. But everybody seemed to work. They did get jobs, but you just had to go past those signs. I have a picture of a girl, she sneaked and drank out of the white fountain, and she was saying, aaahh. And I was thinking, that water don’t taste any different. Franklin: Yeah. Were you involved in the civil rights movement in any way? Allen: I tried not to be. Franklin: Why was that? Allen: I didn’t—I don’t know what I could have done, because it’s a lot of people got killed, dragged behind cars, behind trucks and things. There was that one boy, they drowned him because he spoke to this white lady. Franklin: Emmitt Till. Allen: Emmitt Till, yeah. That’s the kind of stuff that was going on. So I didn’t really have a need to do any of that. Franklin: Was there any local opposition from the white community towards civil rights? Did you— Allen: No, I didn’t—nobody—oh. The one funny thing that happened after we moved up off of 20th Street. My husband was at the—you probably know what I’m going to say. My husband was out back cutting the lawn and trimming the bushes. And a guy walked up and asked him how much would he charge to trim his bushes? And so my husband told him, well, I get to sleep with the lady of the house. [LAUGHTER] And I guess that man, he didn’t like that answer. [LAUGHTER] But that’s exactly what happened. He told him, I get to sleep with the lady of the house. Because it was our front there. He was trimming hedges, that’s what he was doing. The man came wanting to know how much he charging him to cut his hedges. Franklin: Right, because he thought he was— Allen: Trying to be funny. Franklin: --not the owner of the house, but a worker. Allen: Ah, no, trying to be funny. Because I think by that time, it had rounded that people are moving into the various communities. Because by that time, a lot of people started moving over to the west side. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Yeah, because when I asked—when my house went up, I asked the real estate person, can you get me a house over on the west side? Will they sell me a house? He said, if they don’t sell it to you, then they’re going to have to take it off the market. That’s how he explained it to me. He said, because it’s open. He let us know it was open. And people were starting to come all along the 2nd Street there, all that filled in with black people. Franklin: Was the housing generally better on the west side? Allen: Well, there wasn’t anything left on the east side. Yeah, there wasn’t anything else left on the east side. So that’s the reason that we were moving, because they were wanting to have some more business stuff. Like they got. They got a lot of business stuff over there. Franklin: All the development and everything. Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. I see a couple of the buildings—the old hotel building is still over there, and it’s ugly, too. Well, it’s been there for—you know. I’ve been here 50, 60 years. It was there when I got there. Franklin: Right. Allen: In fact, there was all kinds of stuff over there when I first came here. Franklin: Were your children active in the civil rights movement locally or anything? Do you remember them, were they involved or interested or invested in any way? Allen: If they were, I didn’t know about it, because they helped me a lot with the smaller children, so there was always a couple of the boys at home around to help me out in case I needed to go to the store or whatever. I don’t remember them being involved in any—they were involved in school activities, like racing and ball—stuff, whatever at the school. They weren’t—it wasn’t the neighborhood stuff. But we did go to church. We did that, we went to church over there. Franklin: [STOMACH GURGLING] Excuse me. Excuse me again. Any memories of, like, the social scene or politics or insights into Tri-Cities since—from when you moved here on? Allen: I don’t understand. Franklin: Sorry. Anything about the Tri-Cities stick out to you from when you moved here, or from living here in the past 60 years? Allen: I don’t—not quite understanding. Franklin: Oh, okay. Well, let me try a different question. Allen: Okay. Franklin: Let’s see here. Were there any—what are some of your memories of major events in the Tri-Cities? Do you remember President Kennedy visiting in 1963? Because you would have—I think you would have been working at Hanford at that time. Allen: Yeah, I remember something about that. I didn’t get an opportunity to participate in anything like that. I do know, when—who was the—what President was that, that got killed? I was working out in Richland at Hanford and I was in the darkroom working. The man that oversees the buildings, he came and came in there where I was, and he was surprised to see me. He said, what are you doing here? I said, I work here. He said, but everybody else has gone home. I says, why? He said, President Kennedy got killed. That’s about what I remember. Everybody just—the cars were backed up as far as you could see them, because everybody was leaving, going home. And the guy found me and got me, ousted me out of the building to go home. But other than that—I mean, that’s—everybody took advantage of that. But—no. Franklin: Were you ever worried about—Hanford played such an important role in the Cold War in producing plutonium. Were you ever worried about being so close to Hanford? Did it ever make you nervous or anxious? Allen: Are you talking about living or working? Franklin: Both. Allen: Well, I didn’t even think about it in my living, because like I said, that was all the way out in Richland. We did have people out there living in mobile homes and things off the properties there. But I never did consider none of that, because I didn’t live in Richland. I lived in Pasco, and never the twain shall meet. People would come over sometime and go to church, over to Pasco. But, no, we did have quite a few people that lived over—quite a few black people that lived over there in trailers and different things like that. I did try to buy a house when they put all their houses up for sale, because it was so nice and cheap, but they said, no, you can’t buy if you didn’t work out—at the time. That’s before I did go to Hanford, I was trying to—no, that was after I had left Hanford. They were selling their houses, because they were so cheap. I would have loved to have bought them, but they said no. Franklin: Oh, so you tried to buy a house in Richland? Allen: Well, yeah, I wanted to, because they were selling them for $2,000 and $3,000. Nice big houses. Franklin: [LAUGHING] Yeah. Oh, let’s see here. When you worked at Hanford, how did security or secrecy impact your job there? Allen: Well, the things that I did, it wasn’t that kind of secret. Because, like I said, if I was in the lab, probably washing stuff down or something like that. Or if somebody wasn’t in the office, I was probably in the office, doing something. It didn’t affect me very much, because I just did what I was told. [LAUGHTER] That’s as far as I would go with that. I learned a lot while I was there working. But after I got sick, and I stayed—basically—I was basically in bed for a year. When I came out, and I was going to go back out to U.S. Testing, there was a foul, strong odor out there, and I backed out. I said, no, I’m not going to die out here. I was just going to go out there to see if I could meet with somebody and talk. But I got this strong scent of medicine and stuff. And I said, I’m not inhaling that stuff in my body no more. So the medicine that they gave me, I’m still on it, and that’s been 60 years. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Yeah. Still taking it, and that’s—I rarely take medicine that long. But I still have to take it. Franklin: Do you know—what kind of medicine is it? Allen: Well, sarca—they called it—they said I had gotten something like sarcoidosis. But if I had my medicine list, I could show you, but—because I got a medicine list. I get a medicine list, and on there you got this medicine, over the years, the same thing over and over and over. And they say, well, that’s what’s keeping you going. That’s what’s keeping your heart beating. That’s what they tell me about it. So, I’m grateful. Franklin: Who were—do you remember any—who were some of the community leaders when you—in the African American community, when you moved here in the ‘50s? Allen: Yeah. Well, one of the leaders was my cousin, Virgie Robinson. She was definitely a leader. She was a leader. Franklin: How long had she been here? Allen: Well, she must have been here three or four years, I guess. Because when she came down there and saw me, and asked—because I had lived with her family from the time I was five until I was twelve. So she hadn’t seen me for a while, so when she came and saw me down, and asked me if I wanted—if I would come to Pasco. I would’ve just probably went anywhere at the time, because I was so desperate to get out of Little Rock, Arkansas. I hated it. But she—you said, who are some of the other people there. Well, I’m trying to think who was—well, always the pastors. The pastors seemed to be always the lead people. Dallas Barnes. He was going to college and he was working. The Daniels family, they were very—the men were very useful. Vanis Daniels and— Franklin: Oh yeah. Yeah, he’s wonderful. Allen: That Daniels people, the young men were good. Delores Groves. Mm-hmm. Yes. Franklin: Did you know the— Allen: She died two years ago. Franklin: Did you know the Mitchells at all? Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you have—because they lived in Richland most of the time, right? CJ and his— Allen: Oh, yeah. I’ve never known him to live in—they used to come to church over in Pasco and then they stopped that, too. But yeah, I know the Mitchells. CJ Mitchell and all of them. But they were active—very, very active. Franklin: Yeah. Because he—I think he became a realtor at some point and helped to sell houses. Allen: And his son. His son—is he a judge? Franklin: I think so. Allen: I think that’s a judge, yeah, because I think I saw him yesterday on a—whatever they do. He had on a case. Franklin: Oh, right, right. Allen: Yeah, he was— Franklin: And then you guys eventually moved out to even more west Pasco, right? Allen: Yes. Franklin: When was that? Allen: 2003. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: 2002 or 2003. Yeah, we built our own house out there. Franklin: Okay, and how come you moved from Lewis and — Allen: Because we had this big park. And drugs—them guys were starting to meet out there in the park there. And I told BJ—because, in fact, they had tore a lady’s house, the inside out of her house because they found drugs in her house. And they had all her stuff sitting outside. And I told my husband, I said, we need to get out of here. I said, because this—I don’t like this. This is spooky. They got that woman’s house just tore up because they found some drugs in it. And the park, it just wasn’t fit to go to anymore. My kids used to enjoy going to the park, learning how to swim in the summertime, just playing. And all of the sudden, all these guys with these drugs and stuff were out there. So I just happened to be riding—because I didn’t even know that this existed, where I’m living now. And I got up there on Road 60 and it was a service station and there was Yoke’s. And I’m thinking, what’s going on? And I went around the corner and they had all these apartments, and then you could go in and sign in the book and check them out. So I did and I went and told my husband, let’s go back. So we did, we went back and we decided, okay, we’ll get out of here and put our house up. It was gone in three days. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Well, the lady across the street wanted it for her brother. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: And somebody else was wanting to see the house, but this man was complaining. Well, you need to do this, and you need to do that. And that lady called me on my phone, because she knew my name, and she asked me, where are you living? And I did my best to tell her. She came out there and she gave me a down payment and told me, you call your husband and tell him to get that man out of that house. Because I want it for my brother. So they bought the house, and we got started. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. How has Pasco changed from when you moved there in the early ‘50s to now? Allen: Well, I think the population—well, we don’t want to talk about population, do we? What can I say? It’s a good place, it’s a nice place over there. Nice houses—some nice houses over there. In fact, they got a whole neighborhood behind this one church over there, behind Greater Faith—New Hope. Behind New Hope Baptist Church they’ve got a whole neighborhood that’s mostly Hispanic over there. So a lot—you go over there and you find 99% of the people that’s—so I have a lady friend of my granddaughter’s who—they got married recently, and they decided to build over there because it’s the cheapest place. They said the bill. So according to the paper, you know, it’s 90%--they figure that the population is about 90% Hispanic. Which is great. But it’s good to be able to find places to live, and live peacefully. That’s what you want to do. Franklin: How—were there a lot of Hispanics when you moved to the area in 1950s? When did that begin to change? Allen: You know, I don’t really know, because I was working and learning and taking care of babies—my children and everything. It was—I didn’t really do a lot of keeping up with the population change. But I know that we—now, when I lived on Lewis Street, we came back over to Richland—I mean over to the side. They had all the good stores over there: they had Penny’s and they even had Montgomery Ward’s, and ain’t seen a Montgomery Ward’s, and Sears & Roebuck, and all the drugstores and things like that. Then one day I was at the West Side Market. Because I tell this all the time, and it happened. And this gentleman came in, and he had a board like you’ve got, and he had a big book. And he came into the store—the West Side Market—and he asked the lady that was at the counter, he said, I’d like to speak to your boss, please. She says, oh, okay. And so he walked around, and I said, hmm, I wonder what this all about. I’m going to see. So when the boss came out, he says, I see you don’t have no Mexican workers. And I’m thinking, uh-oh. Maybe I can get out of here. But no. And the guy kind of looked around, and he said, you don’t have no Mexican workers? You don’t have Mexican workers, you don’t need Mexican money. And I was thinking to myself, why couldn’t I have thought about that? I thought that was really cool, because by Saturday, I saw three people working in that store. Three Mexicans working. That was the West Side Market. Because we had the East Side Market, and the same guy owned both stores. So this was the West Side Market. But he got Mexicans—pretty soon, they had jobs. And I’m thinking, this man comes from nowhere—I don’t know where he came from, but all of the sudden, he tells this man, if you want Mexican money, you get Mexican workers. I said, that’s one of the smartest things I’ve ever heard. I love it. I loved that! Why couldn’t we have thought about that? Because we still hadn’t got no jobs down there. But I thought that was so nice, because then all of the sudden within like a month, every store around had Hispanic workers. And that’s good. And so then I read in the paper that Pasco was like 90-95% Hispanic. And that’s okay. They’re working, and that’s what counts. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Had it been difficult for people in the African American community to find jobs early on? Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. We didn’t find hardly any jobs. You might find one working. And then my cousin, he had a store over there on 4th Street—4th and Clark. It was selling sandwiches and things like that, and it didn’t really do too good. Franklin: What did your husband do when he worked? Allen: My husband worked for Boise-Cascade and Hanford. So he would work for Hanford for a while and get laid off, and then he’d go to Boise-Cascade. So then he’d go to Boise-Cascade for a while, and then he’d get laid off and go back to Hanford—no, Hanford would call him back. So he did that three or four times and then he said, you know what? I’m sick of this. This just doesn’t make sense for me to just keep going back and getting laid off and then go back. So my husband was a truck driver for Boise-Cascade. Franklin: It would be hard to build up seniority that way, and a pension. Allen: Yeah, see, that’s what he was upset about. Because like he said, this don’t even make sense. I’m working, and then Hanford call me back and there I go running back. And then work for seven, eight months, maybe a year, get laid off again. Go back out to Boise—Hanford call you back. Franklin: What did he do at Hanford? Did he also drive truck at— Allen: He was—no, he was an engineer. He was—oh, what—he fixed things. Yeah. I have some pictures of him in his office with the other guys that was in there. They did upkeep on instruments and different stuff like that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: And at Boise-Cascade, he was a truck driver. Franklin: Oh, very different occupations. Allen: So finally he moved; finally he decided, I’m staying with Boise-Cascade. Franklin: Okay. Did he ever talk about experiencing any kind of discrimination or segregation at Hanford or Boise-Cascade? Allen: No, I really didn’t. Certainly not at Boise-Cascade and Hanford, either, that I knew of. I felt very comfortable. Probably the first day or so, you know, when people looking at you going in. And then the boss man taking here and telling you about this job and this job, somebody might think something. But other than that, after a while, we would be hugging and—you know—being happy and we’d have dinners and everything would be nice. I didn’t have any bad feelings at all. Franklin: Did you ever—you still have family in Arkansas, right? Some family in Arkansas, or did they all— Allen: I [UNKNOWN] because my mother and my step-father died. So, no, I don’t have any that I know of. Franklin: Oh okay, so you pretty much severed— Allen: I— Franklin: --severed ties in Arkansas. How do you think your life would have been different if you had stayed—if you had not come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: Well, I certainly didn’t like Arkansas, and I wasn’t going to stay there, because believe you me, I have gone to other places. I went to St. Louis—I didn’t like that. Chicago, different places like that. Certainly wasn’t going back to Saginaw, Michigan where I was raised from the time I was five until I was twelve. I hated that place with two passions. Franklin: Why? Allen: Well, I didn’t do anything. You know, I was a little girl—I was a young girl there, and things started happening as I was moving on, because I was there from the time I was five until I was twelve. And that’s when I went back to Little Rock, where my mother was. But during that time, I didn’t even see my mother. Because they just didn’t have the money. And my stepfather, he did the best he could, but they wasn’t paying anything, hardly, for people working. He didn’t work in the mines or anything like that. That was one of the big places for people to work at, in the mine—mines and things like that. So, I wouldn’t have stayed there, under no circumstances. I literally hated Saginaw, Michigan—I mean, Little Rock, Arkansas, I hated it. And Saginaw, too. This—I fell in love with Richland and Pasco and Kennewick. I really did. Franklin: Really? Allen: Yeah. Franklin: What was it about it that— Allen: Well, I had more of a chance to get out and get into these careers. I got to finish up my education right here. That all by itself, you know. I got ready to do that, and then I did that. This man thought enough of my son to recommend him to one of the finest colleges in the nation, and we didn’t have 15 cent to grind, and he went. That just— Franklin: Did he end up getting a scholarship to go? How did he— Allen: Yeah, yeah! Franklin: Wow, that’s really something. Allen: Yup, they put him in and I got to go see him when he graduated. We all went to see him when he graduated. And then he got married, and his son went to West Point. That was good. Franklin: Yeah. You must be very proud. Allen: I am, and I was. He was a FEMA worker. He worked for FEMA, but here just about four months ago, another something came in that was kind of like FEMA. I don’t know the name of it. But he quit FEMA and went to this other place, because the way that he was going with FEMA, which the head office was in Washington, D.C., he would have to take his car—he lives in Maryland—and he would have to take his car up to where they all parked their cars and take a train to go into Washington, D.C. Because, he said, if you found a parking place to purchase, it’s half of your check. He said it was so expensive and everything. So he worked there for many, many, many years. But just this year—this past year, another company came in similar to that. It was just—but he didn’t have to travel to those terrible places like FEMA people do. You know, they have to go where all that mud and everything. And he’s done this quite a few times, and he said this one gives him a break. Because he’s 65 years old now. So he’s not as young as he was when he started it. He started it, I think, back when he was in either his late 30s or early 40s. And he worked all that time. So he said he was awfully glad to be able to not have to park his car at the—wherever they park the cars—to get on the trains. Because they have parking lots for people to go. And you still have to pay for that, too. That’s another thing you have to pay for. Franklin: Wow, it’s expensive to make a living. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Tri-Cities? Allen: Well, you know, I think—I believe that Hanford is a good place to work, because I got two daughters left out there. They’re both working—they got excellent jobs. Now, I got a son that died from that stuff that they got out there. It got in his system and everything. And he died about five years ago. From working out in that stuff. But I would—there’s danger in all kinds of jobs. You’d have to know what you’re doing to be working. Because it is dangerous, and a lot of people have left here that were working out there, and all of the sudden their lungs were messed up and various things like that. So I’m just grateful that I got sick, but I got well. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: But I think that—I don’t know what the clothes had to do with me. And nobody told me that they had something to do—I’m wondering why did they say to put these clothes on and keep them on overnight, all day, and overnight and then get them changed. I don’t know what that was about. Nobody ever told me anything. But I have a suspicion that that was the cause of me getting sick like I did. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Because I was up in Virginia Mason for quite a while and just various—you know. I was sick. I was in the bed for a year. Franklin: Yeah, that’s really something. Disturbing story. Allen: Yes, it is. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration and segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Allen: Well. I don’t like that kind of stuff, but—because my first thing to go with integration was when I got on the bus in Little Rock—I mean—I’m sorry, in Saginaw, Michigan is where I’d been living for seven years. When they would put me on the bus to send me home to my mother, they tagged me. They put my name and everything there so that they—okay, so when—we was riding the bus, just really good, and when we came to what they called the Mason-Dixon Line—and I didn’t know what it was; they told me later—this man, said, all right, all you niggers get to the back. And that just killed me. Because he had been—seemed like he had been so nice. Because I had been sitting right behind the driver. Because I was tagged. And so—and then he says, all you niggers get to the back. Okay. So then we went, and we went on a few miles, and everybody stopped for lunch. So I got in the—to run in to get some lunch, and they told me, you get to the back. You go around on the back side. So I went there and they had a bunch of sandwiches made up, and you never know how long them sandwiches had been there or what. But that’s what they had to offer. So that was my introduction to what it was going to be. And it was sick. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Yeah, I just couldn’t believe that people could get treated like that. But I really didn’t have much to go on. Franklin: And the Tri-Cities gave you a break from that? Allen: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Right? There wasn’t that type of environment— Allen: No, we didn’t have nothing like that, that I know of. I’m sure that somebody somewhere had some discrimination problems. And like I told you, my then-boyfriend got trapped over in Kennewick. So I had to go and get him out—bail him out, and they told him, don’t come back over there at night. Franklin: Do you think in general, for people you knew that also moved here, that life was better here than if they had come from the South? Allen: Most of them that came here stayed. They stayed, they got jobs, you know. They had houses. To this day. So I think they—I think most of them liked it here. And I haven’t heard of anybody going back home, going back South. But I have a granddaughter that—she wanted to move South, because she wanted to go to a historically black college. And she did, and she’s doing a good job, and she’s happy where she is and everything like that. But, see, I wouldn’t—it didn’t faze me at all. Franklin: Well, Rose, thank you so much for coming and interviewing, and just telling me about your life and your life story. I really appreciate it. Allen: Well, thank you very much for asking me, and I’m sorry my memory’s not any better than it is. But— Franklin: No, I— Allen: That’s the best I got. Franklin: No, you did a wonderful job. Thank you again, so much. Allen: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric U.S. Testing Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960-1966 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rose Allen Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Teaching Civil rights Description An account of the resource Rose Allen moved to Pasco, Washington from Arkansas in the early 1950's. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/12/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdbaab38171ade9f70f4301d5240b8eef.docx cc04ffe582f151265e64fefa11baf938 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd310f4bfab6bf92f6da41aef0de3720a.docx e71ce767a8834facf3c971788cdb7e90 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffaf10295f80665cdf34e2e454f0348f9.mp4 c7d53f3ac3326163059fabb82970c910 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latino/a Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An ongoing oral history project focusing on the history of the Latine/Latino community of the Tri-Cities, Washington area. Previously known as the WSU Tri-Cities Latinx Oral History Project headed by History faculty Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin. Hanford History Project made the decision in 2024 to use Latino/a instead of Latinx as the former more reflects the grammar and practical use and identification of Spanish speakers. We know that one term will not encompass all those identities. For example, Latine, a gender neutral pronoun and product of the queer Spanish community, was considered for use but we use Latino/a to reflect the prevalence of gendered pronouns in the Spanish language. However, we would like to acknowledge that the discourse around which term to use is complex and evolving. Every person has the right to use the term that captures who they are and that feels the most welcoming to them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Language A language of the resource English; Spanish Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman; Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruben Peralta Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Bauman: My name is Robert Buman and I am here with my colleague Robert Franklin and we a are here today to conduct an oral history interview with Mr. Ruben Lemos. Today’s date is June 7th, 2022 and this interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State Univerity Tri-Cities. So, first things Mr. Lemos can you please say and spell your first and last names for us. Ruben Lemos: Ruben Lamos. R-U-B-E-N and last name is L-E-M-O-S. Robert Bauman: Great, thank your very much. Well, first of all thanks for coming here today and uh talking with us. I wonder if we can start the interview just by having you talk a little bit about yourself, your family, when you your family came to the Tri-Cities I need that story. Ruben Lemos: Well, my background is from I come from a migrant farm working family. I was born in Texas Edinburg,Texas and in 1952 my family migrated up to Washington state and for the next ten years we went the migrant cycle all throughout Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, California and tk Texas we did that for ten years. 1961 I believe was the last year that we migrated. And I came to the Tri-Cities I came to Pasco after I came out of the military I got drafted during Vietnam era 1966 served my country proudly, and been when I was getting ready to be separated from the military I found out about a program that was being offered to military personnel that if you attend college you could be released as much as ninety days prior to your date of separation. So I at that time um applied at Columb(ia) Basin College so my wife and I came to Pasco in 1968 and I did my two years here at CBC ahh did my additional two years at Central Washington, I graduate with a degree from Central Washington then I did a master’s degree from Whitworth University. In the meantime my wife was right behind me she did her two years at CBC ahh she graduated from Central Washington as well, two years later and then she got her ahh academic she got her principle credentials through Washington State University in Pullman. And so we’ve been here pretty much ever since since 1968. Robert Franklin: What what made you choose Pasco and CBC? Ruben Lemos: Um..pas Pasco because CBC was here and CBC because that was the only community college that I was aware of. I knew about Yakima Valley community college but I thought that for us it might be a better fit over here in the Tri-Cities. So I grew up in the Yakima valley um I graduated from Granger High School and um then-- we decided to move over here to Pasco, right out of the military. I did my basic training in Fort Louis, my advanced infantry training Tigerland Fort Polk, Louisiana and then I ended up working in personnel at Fort Sam Huston, Texas before I got released. Robert Bauman: Now, going back to talking about your your family migrating every year had--did you did you do work in the region? Ruben Lemos: Yes, we harvested just about every kind of crop that you can imagine in the Yakima valley potatoes, every kind of fruit. And then, back in the back in the sixties they didn’t allow too many hispanic people--well, first of all there weren’t that many of us but then they didn’t allow us to work pick apples it was not until the last sixties that they finally started allowing hispanic to go into the apple orchards. But we picked prunes, apples, cherries, we cut asparagus every morning for ten years before going to school and then from here we would go to Mountain Vernon Washington north of Seattle to pick strawberries, once the strawberry season was over we would go South to Puyallup to pick raspberries from there we would go South towards Salem, Oregon to pick green beans and cucumbers and then we would come back over here to pick potatoes and then the whole cycle would start again. We would go to Idaho to pick potatoes, and uh from there we would go to Arizona to pick cotton and we just mits migrate circle. Robert Bauman: Were there lot of other families at that time coming from Texas coming through the area? Ruben Lemos: There were a lot in the real early fifties because in 1951 there was a big freeze so my dad was not able to find employment picking citrus fruits, everything froze. And so that was the year he decided that we should come north. Robert Bauman: And, what were um the housing situation for migrant workers at that time like what was that. Ruben Lemos: Well, if housing situation was really bad, my dad would pay a $1.50 a week for the cabin that we would live of course it didn’t have indoor plumbing, one light bulb in sight. We didn’t have indoor plumbing and we had communal showers and baths bathrooms and so when we showered we walked to that com com-- there were actually, there were kind of like former military base--not bases but camps and so uh but when they get rid of that then they started renting them to migrant workers. So here in Washington state we lived at Crewport, Crewport was basically where a lot of the migrants lived and like I said my dad would pay a $1.50 a week for us to live there and the same thing would occur in Arizona, we would live South of Phoenix at a migrant camp and it was about the same a $1.50 a week that my dad would pay for that. I come from a family of nine children plus one baby that died at birth, but I had three older brothers and three younger brother, I was the middle child, one older sister and one younger sister. Um, my immediate older brother served in the Navy then I served in the Army, my immediate not my immediate younger brother but a younger brother served in the army and then my baby brother served in the Marine Corps. Robert Bauman: So you had, I guess some familartity with the area. [INAUDIBLE]-- Ruben Lemos: My wife had a cousin that lived in Pasco and so we came to Pasco. And we started getting, in addition to going to CBC and working we started getting involved with the community. I was we were heavily involved in the Saint Patrick Parish council and then in later years when my daughter was in high school then we founded the Hispanic Academic Achievers program which over the years we have awarded millions of dollars of financial scholarships for Hispanic students that are graduating. We started the program in 1990 in Pasco, Gary Fields who was the Superintendent of Kennwick school district came to us the following year 1991 and asked if we would include Kennwick and then about three years later we included the Richland school district, March Chow was the Superintendent and then we included Finely and Burbank and Conell and so we’ve been quite active with that. In addition to that or before that we’ve--a couple of friend and I have founded the uh the Chicanos in Public Service and that was a Chicanos in Public Service we founded in the early seventies and basically what it was was a group of professionals professional hispanic who were available to help migrating families. In fact one of the grants that we applied for and we were we received money for was to establish the first--it was that ESL class to establish the first classes to be offered for English as Second Language and so we did that and then with my daughter being in high school I got involved a lot with the Academic Booster booster club there at Pasco High School and so we’ve been quite busy my wife and I. Robert Bauman: Yeah right and it seems alot of the involvement especially around the area of eduaction. Ruben Lemos:Yes mhm. Robert Bauman:[INAUDIBLE] I wanted to talk a little bit more about the Hipanic Academic Achievers program and you said it started in 1990. What led you and others involved in forming that to to get that program started? Ruben Lemos: What led us to get that program started was my daughter was a highschool senior she had been taking all the honors programs, all the advancement placement programs and she was ranked number-- well her and her best friend at that time, Gracy Cooper, they were co-valedictorians and so they were recognized for their accomplishments academic accomplishments but I noticed that my daughter was not recognized like a lot of the others and so um even though she had a almost a perfect 4.(0) GPA in advanced placement classes and honor classes. Um, she did not get in my opinion the recognition through scholarships and things like awards and scholarships and so I told my wife we need to do something to recognize our students and that’s how we founded HAPP Hispanic Academic Achievers in the real early spring in 1990 which is the year she graduated. And so the first year we didn’t have any money obviously toward scholarships but starting the second year I met a gentleman, a perfect really nice person by the name of Dan Frost, Dan Frost I met him and he asked how he could help us and so my wife and I had lunch with him at the Tri-City country club in Kennewick and we said well we would like to honor the students who are doing at least a 3.(0) GPA or better with a dinner and so he says well I can I can provide the dinner, I can provide you money for the dinner so we had our first banquet at the Red Lion motor in there in Pasco and that’s where Gray Field the superintendent from Kennwick attended that dinner and that is how he asked-- the Kennewick school district to be involved. And starting about following year we had maybe like a couple of two two one thousand dollars scholarship or something like that. Then for us Mr. Frost helped us immensely starting about the third year he says “Ruben I don’t mind giving you money for the dinner but I want to do something more substantial and I said then what would you like to do he says I want to award a ten thousand dollar scholarship to a person that is going to a four year institution in the state of Washington majoring in Engineering,Science or Math and that person needs to maintain at least a 3.(0) GPA of higher.” I said “okay well that’s your money and so I mean you can do whatever you want to do with your money.” So he awarded the first ten thousand dollars Frost scholarship like three years into so it must have been about 1993 1994 or something like that and he did that for about four or five years and then he increased it to fifteen thousand and then twenty thousand and so he helped a lot of the students, hispanic students in the Tri-City area. Robert Bauman: What was his uh-- Robert Frankin: Mot Motivation or Interest Robert Bauman: Motivation and also what sort of occupation did he I mean where was his-- Ruben Lemos: Dan was an attorney. Robert Bauman: Okay aha Ruben Lemos: Sue Frost his wife, well she was Sue Watkinson at the time I met her. I met her actually by accident I (h)ad a meeting in Olympia and I got out of my meeting early, I got to the airport in Seattle early and I asked is there anyway I could get it back to Pasco in an earlier flight and they said well there is an airplane that is just leaving right now and we happen to have one additional seat and so I ended up sitting next to Sue Watiknson and we started a conversation and then Sue asked if she said “Ruben do you know any Hispanic people that live in the Tri-City who are involved in education.” And I said “ Oh my wife is a teacher studying to be a principle and I’ve been involved you know like with the Pasco High Academic Boosters club” and so she said “can I put you in touch with a man from Los Angeles, his name is Dan Frost” and I said “yeah” so she said “Can you bring your wife and if you know of anybody else.” So I took over my wife and I and Frank Armijo and his sister Linda we met with Mr. Frost and that’s how we started the conversation. The reason that Dan wanted to be involved in bettering the lives, recognizing Hispanic student was because his main office was in LA ,Los Angeles, and he he had seen all the rioting and all of that that was going on and he thought that the best way to get people out of poverty was to educate (th)em. And so that is how he came to offer the Dan Frost scholarships. Robert Bauman: And how do your spell his last name? Ruben Lemos: Frost. F-R-O-S-T. Robert Bauman: Oh Frost, okay just wanna make sure we have that for the transcript yeah. Um so you mentioned it has to be] millions of dollars now that -- Ruben Lemos: Yes, we’ve awarded at least--well, I was the president of HAPP for the first about the first seventeen or eighteen years and like I said our first program was in 1990 and then I told the people that I was going to be retiring before too long so we needed to bring in some fresh blood and. But yeah he has he awarded quite a few scholarship and over the years we awarded several million dollars of scholarships. We get--we do fundraising and then we do employer contacts; the hanford employers have given us money to offer the scholarships. Some of the universities, community and technical colleges and universities in the state have also um matched like if we give them five thousand dollar scholarship for someone coming to WSU Tri-CIties sometimes they will match that or they will match part of that. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: So yeah it has become quite quite a thing and after that--in fact the very first time or one of the-- the very first time I recognized that we needed to start such a program was my wife and I because like I said she was either a principal, a part time principal, or getting to be a principal and we were invited to attend the thirteenth annual African American for Academic achi--Association and we went to that and I told my wife I says “you know, it’s a shame that we don’t have something like this to recognize our hispanic students” and that’s how we--this thing kinda formulated the HAPP. Robert Bauman: So, in with those millions of dollars, several hundred students I am guessing-- Ruben Lemos: Yeah, we recognized um for about the first twenty five years I think it was we were recognizing student in grades fourth through the twelfth grade who had at least a 3.(0) grade point average or higher. And in their last recent years, because it has gotten so there had been so many students that have were able to achieve that um they I believe that they are just recognizing like maybe middle school and olders now. Ruben Lemos: But yeah Robert Bauman: Mhmm, well Ruben Lemos: Um, there are student I mean there were there were student who in the fourth grade they would receive a certificate for being a HAPP student and they they would point to a twelfth grader that was getting a two thousand or five thousand scholarship and they said I want to be that person. And in six or eight years later they were that person so. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: Mhmm Robert Bauman: Must must be really rewarding for you and your wife to do--have known that you have played such an important part in starting this. Ruben Lemos: It has been very rewarding and challenging you know because initially when we started the program we had some people--I would get phone calls from people saying how come you were limiting to the Hispalnics why don’t you include others and I would say “well, you know like the African Americans are recognizing their students, we are recognizing our our Hispanic students now. I would be happy to help your start something for Caucasian students if your want to.” But they never did start anything. Robert Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you if you had experienced any resistance or-- Ruben Lemos: Oh yes. Robert Bauman:-- or hesitations--- Ruben Lemos: Yes. Robert Bauman:-- or you know either just by random individuals or by even people in education. Ruben Lemos: No, it was mostly people in the community that would complain about it and they would call me and they’d say “how come you don’t include others students, why don’t you include other students.” And I said “ Well, we started this program because we needed something for our youth” and I said “ we saw now we see for example our, some of our former students some of our Dan Frost scholars that have come back they have their PhD in electrical engineering, they have degrees in numerous numerous areas so mathematicians, we have some that are working here in Battelle electrical engineering and yeah.” Some of them finished their PhDs through WSU Tri-Cities. Robert Bauman: So wonder if we--I go back and talk about a little bit about you talked about moving here in 1968, is that-- Ruben Lemos: Yes. Robert Bauman:--right? Um, what was the area like at that time and in especially I am thinking about the Hispanic community in 1968. Ruben Lemos: Well, the Hispanic community back in nineteen late sixties, you can almost count them on one hand you know they were very few. There were a few families, most of the people lived in what they call the navy homes. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: Um, and in fact when my wife and I arrived here in Pasco we started looking around for homes, for an apartment and they said “go to the navy homes.” Well, to live in the navy homes you had to be really really low income, really low income and um even though my wife and I were obviously not even middle class types we still were not low enough. So we we rented an apartment, uhh almost across the street from the Pasco city library and it was a nice apartment, but housing was um was not easy to come by in fact we lived in Hopkins across the street from the library and one block east. Um and one evening you know because my wife and I we obviously did not have did not have money so we would just walk around the neighborhood and we saw an apartment that was for rent and I told my wife I said “it looks like somebody is renting an apartment” and she said “yeah, we should inquire and see what-- if we can take a look at it.” And so we went and rang the doorbell and a lady came out and she said “may I help you” and I says “I notice that you have an apartment for rent” and she say “ yeah” and I’m “can we see it?” [she says] “no'' I say “oh, why?” [she says] “well, you’re Hispanic” [Ruben says] “so, what does that have to do with anything” [she says] “well no, I don’t rent to Hispanics they are all drunks and they are all drug dealer and they are all..” on and on and on so I told my wife “you know what I don’t even want to talk about this anymore.” Well, that didn’t go well with me after a while I started thinking about that I said “ I’m going to file some kind of complaint with the City of Pasco” and I did and then I kept following up with my complaint and they never did anything because they lady’s son was a city attorney and so they never followed up on anything. But housing was not easy to come by and so but we managed and now we live in a nice home and yeah. Robert Bauman: Yeah um, I wonder if you can then talk about maybe ahh yeah your 1968 um and I’m doing my math right that’s like fifty plus years [LIGHT CUCKLE] Ruben Lemos: Mhmm Robert Bauman: Changes you see Rober Franklin: Or more yeah Ruben Lemos: Well-- Robert Bauman: --changes you’ve seen since then, developments in the area especially like to the Hispanic community. Ruben Lemos: Well, obviously the Tri-Cities have grown a lot they built the Columbia Center mall in--they started in 1969 I think 1970 and back then people would say “Why are they building a storage out in the middle of the desert.-- Robert Bauman: [CHUCKLES] Ruben Lemos: --who in the world is going to drive all the way out to the middle of the desert.” Well all of that has developed since. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: Housing was very inexpensive but so were wages but compared to now you know now you can, a decent home is at least five of six hundred thousand um anything less than that oftentimes you know not as nice. But yeah I have seen the Tri-Cities grow alot. Pasco I think back then it was I don’t know about twelve thousand population, Richland was about the same, Kennewick was a little bit smaller and, and then Kennwick started to grow. They used to have a JCPennies in fact my wife used to work at JCPennies in Pasco, they had a JCPennies here in Richland and one in Kennewick and when Columbia Center mall opened in ‘69 or ‘70 something like that then they closed all three of them. They had the Bonmarche here in in Richland then they opened Bonmarche which became Macy’s in Columbia Center so I’ve seen a lot of growth and obviously the increase in the Hispanic population has really grown a lot. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: Mhmm. So um when we first arrived here I was going to CBC and then I started working part-time as a clerk typist because I used to do that in the military for Northwest Rule Opportunities and then I got a job with the the Employment Security department and I was working full-time with the Employment Security department and continuing my classes at CBC, I still managed to graduate in two years. My wife started at CBC and going and working also at JCpennies and she finished in two years. I got transferred to Union Gap, I got a promotion so we moved to Union Gap from 1972 to 74 we came back and that time I managed to finish my four year degree at at Central. So then my wife, then when we came back my wife continued with her master’s degree in principle’s credentials at Washington State University and I finished or I started my masters degree at Whitworth Univerity. And so I work with Employment Security until 1977 and then I came to work in the spring of in the spring of ‘77 I came to work for the Department of Energy in the federal building and I was out here in the Hanford site until ‘87 when I went--when I started back or when I got a job opportunity at CBC and they hired me as the first director of Human Resources at CBC and they they promoted me to Vice President and I stayed there until I retired. My wife started her teaching career and moved up the ladder through being a principle and then I happened to be talking to Dave Shaw who was the Superintendent of Pasco High or Pasco School district and he asked me--my wife was a principal at Park Middle School at the time and Dave asked me if I can talk to my wife about coming back to Pasco, he needed a planning principal for Ochoa Middle School. And so I talked to her and she talked to Dave and they interviewed and so yeah she got hired on as the planning principal she was responsible for all the hiring and all the purchasing of all the equipment for the school and hiring of all the staff and teachers and then she stayed there a couple--a few years and then retired and then I retired after that. Robert Bauman: So how long did you work for CBC then. Ruben Lemos: I worked for CBC from ‘87 or ‘88 until 2005. Robert Bauman: Okay. Ruben Lemos: Yeah. Robert Bauman: And then you mentioned you worked here briefly. Ruben Lemos: After I retired I worked here at the in the Upper bound program for about six months. Yeah at a, it wasn’t anything permnant I at the the time they needed somebody to to help them out so I came out and helped them out. Robert Franklin: Mhmm Robert Bauman: So both you and your wife had had you had long careers in working in the field of education as well. Ruben Lemos: Yes, aha. Robert Bauman: Um, you mentioned earlier that um incident that you faced you know trying to rent an apartment and the discrimination um. Did you you, your wife, or family experience other things like that umm early on or any other point during your time in the Tri-Cities? Ruben Lemos: That’s basically not really um that was basically the shocker for me you know that they were putting us all in the same boat. Like all of you are all drunks, druggies and obviously we weren’t and so ahh no that’s pretty much the discrimination that I went through but. Mhmm Robert Franklin: What were some, since you’ve been in Pasco for such a long time, what were some of the first early important Hispanic institutions in Pasco that you can remember businesses or restaurants or just things that really you would kind of point to as like part of the community, churches. Ruben Lemos: Well I know Saint Patricks, Saint Particks back in 1968 or ‘69 they had a spanish speaking priest and they offered the firs--the only spanish mass in the Tri-Cities so people from Kennwick would come to Saint Patricks and obviously people from Pasco, people from Richland would go to Saint Patricks because that was the Spanish speaking mass that they had, the only one. Obviously since then they’ve they’ve increased the number of of priests spanish speaking and have um increased the number of masses that are offered. Um my wife and I like I said we were involved with Saint Patricks we’ve been euchasristic ministers and we have um I was I was on the Parish council when we got approval when we when we built the gymnasium for example we expanded the school, Saint Patrick School, and so my wife and I have been involved in activities like that. As far as other organizations um there was like I said the um Northwest Rule Opportunities which before they used to call that Washington Citizens for Migrant Affairs um that was the org--the agency that I used to work for part-time while I was going to CBC. Um but and since then they had like the--oh there was the the Latin American club which was a group of maybe four five families that were involved in promoting the Hispanic culture ahh since then there has been other ah other um buisnesses that have come forward. Robert Franklin: Mhmm Robert Bauman: Er earlier on you ah mentioned Chicanos in Public Service, when year did that start and is that something that is still in existence. Ruben Lemos: No, it um okay. It started back in must’ve been in 1969, maybe 1970 and that was active for maybe about four or five years and then it kind of petered out. But we, the few Hispanic people that were working in state agencies um that was just myself in employment security and there may have been one or two others maybe one in Labor and indegi-- Washington State department Labor and Industries and maybe one with the Social Services. There was just very very few but um we wanted to kinda organize to see what we could do to better serve our people and one of the things like I said that we did was come up with teaching ESL. Robert Bauman: Right. Ruben Lemos: Um because some of the Hispanic people didn’t know English and so back in about ‘69 ‘70 we applied for a grant and we got funded with that grant to teach ESL. We held classes in the evening at Pasco High School and we did that for a couple winters. Ahh but then people started moving away so that kinda um Chicanos in Public Service kinda went away. Robert Bauman: Um is there, what what are some things that we haven’t asked you about [CHUCKLE] or or things you know about the Hispanic community about organizations here or even your personal history that you think would be important to share that we haven’t asked you about. Ruben Lemos: Um, one of the things that we wanted to do as part of the Hispanic and or the Chicanos in Public Service was to recruit more professionals into the area and so we were working in positions like especially like when for example when I went to work for DOE, I worked in human resources and we started recruiting brining in professionals ah like mechanical engineers, electrical engineers who these were people who were graduating from like for example the University of Texas El Paso and they were looking for employment and so we started bringing them in and that’s how some of them we still have some people here that that we recruited way back in the seventies that came and made a career here with a with Battellel or with Weston House with Rock Well International so we started bringing in --one one of the main things that we want to do is attract or invite other Hispanic people to the area and they did come up from Texas, these were professionals some of them went back but alot of them stayed here now they are retired also and living comfortably in the Tri-Cities. Robert Bauman: Yeah, anything else? Ruben Lemos: One of my, when I went to CBC, one of my the things that the President asked me to do was to see if I could increase the number of minorities on campus students but also personnel and so I did increase both students and and personnel significantly. I don’t know how many are still there or how many have left but we did recruit a lot of instructors, professors now, and um office workers and program assistants, program coordinators. That was one of my challange. Robert Franklin: You had mentioned that when you had moved here in ‘68 it was a pretty small [incomprehensible] when did that begin to change? When did you start to see a lot more Hispanics arrive you know folks arriving whether you know whether just kind of moving here or part of migration patterns or things like that. Robert Bauman: I think that that probably started maybe in the last seventies mid to late seventies because by that time there was myself and others that were working with the, they were positioning jobs that we could bring other people in. Um, my wife um by that time was a school teacher and so when job openings would come up um she would put out the word with other teachers in fact I’ll tell you an interesting story which is kinda cute my wife was reminding me about this. Ahh it must’ve been like maybe must’ve been like ‘76 ‘77 and the Pasco school--my wife was working and by that time they had another hispanic teacher, Dolores Cocks, and my wife was working-- they were working as teachers and they put in an announcment that they needed more bilingual teachers so Dolores told my wife “well, I know that there is another lady that just moved to the Tri-Cities she also was a teacher in Texas and she is Hispanic. I don’t know where she lives, but I know she lives somewhere in Richland and I’ll go find her” my wife said “well, how are your going to find her” she says “ well, I know that I am going to look for a license plate that says Texas in Richland-- Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos:--we know that she lives in Richland somewhere.” So Dolores came out my wife got a kick out of this because she says “In the evening after she got off work she went through all the apartment buildings that were, there weren’t that many first of all but the ones that were in existent and with a flashlight looking for a Texas license plate. Oh there is a Texas license plate.” And so she found out whose car that was and then she found out where this lady lived and she turned out to be an excellent . In fact she was my daughter’s kindergarten teacher. And so um so yeah we where we did everything possible to try to recruit and encourage people to apply for these positions. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: And you know like I said through the Hispanic Academic Achievers program we one of the main purposes was to motivate and encourage students to do well academically like I said my daughter was co-valedictorian for the class of 1990 at Pasco High and she went over to the University of Washington right out of high school and got her two year or four year degree and then she got her law degree and then she practiced law in in Yakima. From there she met her future husband who was at NY New York University law school, she moved to New York, got married and then both of them are living in Nashville now with our two grandkids and so he is an attorney with the U.S. government. So we wanted to encourage youth our youth to do better academically and motivate them and like I said we didn’t have much to give (th)em other than a dinner the first few years and a paper that said that they were a member of the Hispanic Academic Achievers program for that year. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: And I remember there was one year that-- in fact I think it was the very first year ah when we were recognizing the students that has a 3.(0) GPA or higher a student came up to me as we were ending the program ah and said “ Mister, will you recognize me?” I said “Well what’s your grade point average?”[Kid says] “Well, I have almost a 3.(0) I have a 2.89 or something like 2.97 or something like that.” I said “No,ah you work harder next year and we will recognize you.” And so we were trying to encourage and motivating them and he did, and that young man turned out to be a very very good citizen. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: You know, graduated from high school and went on to college and went on to his profession but the idea was to encourage and motivate students to do well academically. Robert Bauman: Mhmm Ruben Lemos: If we were gonna improve ourselves that was the way to do it and Mr. Frost, Dan Frost that was, he wanted to do the same thing he said “I want to stop all this violence that’s going in in Los Angeles and um and one way to do it is to provide some kind of incentive for our minority students to do well in school and do well academically and better themselves and better their families.” And you know I think myself like I said I came from a migrant farm working family we pick potatoes six cents a sack, we picked cotton three cents a pound and the hourly rate for working in asparagus or hoeing beets or working in the fields was a dollar and so my dad and you know wanted us to do better and yeah we still manage to get through--I still managed to get through high school even though like the time, the six weeks that we were in Idaho picking potatoes I didn’t go to school so I would enroll in school in Granger, Yakima Valley and I’d be in school two weeks to three weeks and then all of our family would move to Idaho and we would work in the fields and then it was in late october when we would enroll in school in Arizona. So between late october and the beginning of the school year I had been in school like two to three weeks at the most and so then when I went to Arizona I would had try to catch up with my classmates which was hard but I mean I wasn’t any different than all the other kids that I used to hang around with, but of course a lot of them dropped out a lot of them dropped out of high school--well they didn’t even make it to high school they dropped out of the sixth and seventh grade. Robert Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you were a family of nine children, did your siblings end up in Arizona or did they end up in different places? Ruben Lemos: Um, out of the out of all of us um I have my immediate younger brother who’s now passed he was the first one to go to college and graduate from the University of Washington with his bachelors and masters and then an older brother ahh who got his masters and he became a teacher and I got my masters and I think um my younger, I had a younger brother who’s also passed um I think he had a couple maybe two years at the University of Washington and my baby brother he had also one or two years at Central Washington. So, you know not all of us graduate from college but um we graduate from high school. Robert Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming and sharing your story, your family's story. Robert Franklin: Mhmm Robert Bauman: And and sharing the story of HAPP and seeing the impact that that’s had in the community really really appreciate that and coming in so thank you very much um Ruben Lemos: You’re very welcome. Robert Franklin: Yeah, thank you Ruben. Robert Bauman: Yeah, thanks Ruben really appreciate it. Ruben Lemos: You're very welcome. Robert Franklin: Good Robert Bauman: Mi nombre es Robert Bauman y estoy aquí con mi colega Robert Franklin y estamos aquí para conducir una entrevista oral de historia con el señor Rubén Lemos. La fecha de hoy es siete de junio del 2022 y esta entrevista está siendo conducida en el campo de la universidad de Washington State University en Tri-Cities. Entonces para iniciar señor Lemos podría decir y deletrear su primer nombre y apellido para nosotros. Rubén Lemos: Rubén Lemos. R-U-B-E-N y apellido L-E-M-O-S. Bauman: Grandioso, muchas gracias. Bueno primero gracias por venir aquí hoy y hablar con nosotros. Me pregunto si podemos empezar la entrevista con usted hablando un poco sobre usted, su familia, cuando usted y su familia vinieron a Tri-Cities, necesitamos esa historia. Lemos: Bueno mi historia es de donde vengo de una familia inmigrante trabajadora del campo. Yo nací en Texas, Edinburg Texas y en 1952 mi familia inmigro al estado de Washington y por los próximos diez años estuvimos en un ciclo de inmigración por todo Washington, Idaho, Oregón, Arizona, California y Texas y lo hicimos por diez años. 1961 creo que fue el último año que migramos y vine a Tri-Cities, vine a Pasco después de salir de ejército, fui reclutado durante la era de Vietnam, 1966 serví a mi país orgullosamente y lo sigo haciendo. Cuando me estaba preparando para salir del ejército, me entere de un programa que era ofrecido al personal militar, si atendías a la universidad podrías ser liberado noventa días antes de tu fecha de separación. Entonces en eso tiempo aplique al Columbia Basin College así que mi esposa y yo vinimos a Pasco en 1968 e hice mis dos años aquí en CBC y dos años adicionales en Central Washington, me gradué con una licenciatura de Central Washington y luego hice mi licenciatura de maestría en la universidad de Whitworth. Mientras tanto mi esposa estaba justo detrás de mí, ella hiso sus dos años en CBC y ella se graduó de Central Washington también, dos años después tuvo su academia, sus credenciales de directora a través de Washington State University en Pullman y hemos estado aquí desde entonces, desde 1968. Robert Franklin: ¿Que le hiso elegir Pasco y CBC? Lemos: Pasco porque CBC estaba aquí, y CBC porque era la única universidad de la comunidad de la que sabia. Sabia sobre Yakima Valley Community College, pero pensé que para nosotros sería un mejor ajuste acá en Tri-Cities. Crecí en el valle de Yakima y me gradué en la preparatoria de Granger y después decidí mudarme acá a Pasco, justo después del ejército. Hice mi entrenamiento básico en el fuerte Louis, mi entrenamiento avanzado de infantería en el fuerte de Tigerland Polk, Louisiana y luego terminé trabajando en personal en el fuerte Sam Huston en Texas antes de salir. Bauman: Ahora, volviendo a su familia inmigrando cada año, ¿usted trabajo en la región? Lemos: Si, cosechamos cada tipo de cultivo que te puedas imaginar en el área del valle de Yakima, papas, cada tipo de fruta. Entonces tiempo atrás en los sesenta no permitían mucha agente hispana, para empezar, no había muchos de nosotros, pero aparte no nos permitían trabajar, piscando manzanas, no fue hasta el final de los sesenta que por fin empezaron a permitirle a los hispanos ir a los campos de manzana. Pero cosechábamos ciruelas, manzanas, cerezas, cortábamos espárragos cada mañana por diez años antes de ir a la escuela y luego de aquí íbamos a la montaña Vermon de Washington al norte de Seattle a cortar fresas, una vez que la temporada de fresa terminaba íbamos al sur de Puyallup a cortar frambuesas y de ahí íbamos al sur hacia Salem, Oregón a cortar ejotes y pepinos y después volvíamos aquí a cortar papas y después el ciclo entero iniciaba de nuevo. Íbamos a Idaho a cortar papas, y después de ahí íbamos a Arizona a cortar algodón y completábamos el circulo de la migración. Bauman: ¿Había muchas familias en ese entonces que venían de Texas a través del área? Lemos: Había muchas en el área al principio de los cincuenta porque en 1951 hubo una gran helada así que mi papa no pudo conseguir trabajo cortando cítricos, donde sea se congelo y entonces ese fue el año que el decidió que deberíamos venir hacia el norte. Bauman: ¿Y cómo era la situación de hospedaje para los trabajadores migrantes en ese tiempo, como era eso? Lemos: Bueno, la situación de hospedaje era muy mala, mi papa pagaba $ 1.50 por semana por la cabaña en la que nos quedábamos, por supuesto no tenía drenaje adentro de la casa, solo un foco a la vista. No teníamos plomería adentro y teníamos regaderas y baños comunes y entonces cuando nos bañábamos caminábamos hacia ellos. Era creo, de hecho, era una base militar anteriormente, no bases, pero campos y entonces cuando se decidieron de eso las empezaron a rentar a los trabajadores migrantes. Entonces aquí en el estado de Washington vivimos en Crewport, Crewport era básicamente donde muchos migrantes vivían y como dije mi papa pagaba $1.50 por semana para que nosotros viviéramos ahí, lo mismo ocurría en Arizona, vivíamos al sur de Phoenix en un campo migrante y era más o menos lo mismo $1.50 por semana que mi papa pagaba por eso. Vengo de una familia de nueve niños más un bebe que murió al nacer, pero tenía tres hermanos mayores y tres hermanos menores, yo era el hijo de en medio, una hermana mayor y una hermana menor. Mi hermano inmediato mayor sirvió en la marina y luego yo serví en el ejército, mi inmediato, no mi hermano menor inmediato, pero un hermano menor sirvió en el ejército y luego mi hermano bebe sirvió en el cuerpo de la marina. Bauman: Entonces tuviste, supongo una familiaridad en el área. Lemos: Mi esposan tenía primo que vivía en Pasco y entonces vinimos a Pasco y empezamos, aparte de ir a CBC y trabajar, empezamos a envolvernos en la comunidad. Estaba, estábamos muy envueltos en el consejo parroquial de San Patricio y años más tarde cuando mi hija estaba en la preparatoria, entonces fundamos el programa de Hispanic Academic Achievers el cual durante años a premiado millones de dólares a becas financieras para estudiantes hispanos que se van a graduar. Empezamos el programa en 1990 en Pasco, Gary Fields que era el superintendente del distrito escolar de Kennewick vino a nosotros el año siguiente, 1991 y pregunto si pudiéramos incluir a Kennewick y luego alrededor de tres años después incluimos el distrito escolar de Richland, March Chow era la superintendente y luego incluimos a Finley y Burbank y Conell y hemos estado muy activos con eso. Aparte de eso, o antes de eso hemos, con un par de amigos y yo hemos fundado el Chicano Public Service y ese era el servicio público chicano que fundamos al principio de los setenta y básicamente lo que era, era un grupo de profesionales hispanos que estaban disponibles a ayudar familias migrantes. De hecho, uno de los fondos para los que aplicamos y recibíamos dinero era para establecer el primer, era la clase de ESL, para establecer que las primeras clases fueran ofrecidas en inglés como segundo idioma y entonces hicimos eso. Entonces cuando mi hija empezó la preparatoria me envolví mucho con el club de Academic Booster ahí en la preparatoria de Pasco, así que hemos estado muy ocupados mi esposa y yo. Bauman: Si, claro y parece que hay mucha involucración con la educación. Lemos: Si. Bauman: Quería hablar un poco más sobre el programa de Hispanic Academic Achievers y usted dijo que inicio en 1990. ¿Que lo llevo a usted y otros a involucrarse en crear eso e iniciar el programa? Lemos: Lo que nos llevó a empezar el programa fue mi hija, estaba en la preparatoria y estaba recibiendo honores en todos los programas, en todos los programas avanzados, ella estaba arriba en el rango, bueno ella y su mejor amiga en eso tiempo, Gracy Cooper, ellas eran las estudiantes con las calificaciones más altas y eran reconocidas por sus logros académicos, pero note que mi hija no era reconocida mucho como los otros, entonces incluso aunque tenía casi un promedio de 4.0 en clases de colocación avanzada y clases de honores. Ella no recibió según mi opinión el reconocimiento a través de becas y cosas como reconocimientos y becas, así que le dije a mi esposa que necesitábamos hacer algo para reconocer a nuestros estudiantes y fue así como fundamos la HAAP, Hispanic Academic Achievers Program al principio de la primavera en 1990 que fue el ano en el que ella se graduó. Por el primer año no tuvimos dinero obviamente para las becas, pero el segundo ano conocí a un caballero, un perfecto, muy amable persona con el nombre de Dan Frost. Dan Frost, lo conocí y el pregunto que como podía ayudarnos y entonces mi esposa y yo tuvimos un almuerzo con él en el club campestre Tri-City en Kennewick y dijimos que nos gustaría honorar los estudiantes que consiguen por lo menos un promedio de 3.0 o más con una cena y él dijo que podía proveer la cena, puedo proveer el dinero para la cena, así que tuvimos nuestro primer banquete en el hotel Red Lion en Pasco y fue donde Gray Field el superintendente de Kennewick asistió a la cena y así fue como pregunto que si el distrito escolar de kennewick podía ser incluido. Empezando el siguiente ano teníamos un par de becas de mil dólares o algo así. Entonces el señor Frost nos ayudó inmensamente alrededor del tercer año, él dijo “Rubén no me importa darte dinero para la cena, pero quiero hacer algo más substancial” y le pregunte que le gustaría hacer, y dijo “Quiero dar un premio de diez mil dólares en beca a una persona que va a una institución de cuatro años en el estado de Washington que haga su especialidad en ingeniería, ciencia, o matemáticas y esa persona tiene que mantener por lo menos un promedio de 3.0 o más” y le dije “Bien, ese es su dinero y puede hacer lo que quiera con su dinero” entonces premiamos los primeros diez mil dólares de la beca de Frost y como tres años en eso, debió ser 1993, 1994 o algo así y lo hiso por más o menos cuatro o cinco años y luego la aumento a quince mil y luego a veinte mil y aso ayudó a muchos estudiantes, estudiantes hispanos en el área de Tri-Cities. Bauman: ¿Que era su? Franklin: Motivación o su interés. Bauman: Motivación y también que tipo de ocupación tiene el, me refiero donde… Lemos: Dan es un abogado. Bauman: Bien. Lemos: Sue Frost su esposa, bueno ella era Sue Watkinson al momento que yo la conocí. De hecho la conocí por accidente, tuve una junta en Olympia y Sali temprano de la junta, llego al aeropuerto de Seattle temprano y pregunto si hay algún modo que pueda volver a Pasco en un vuelo más temprano y me dicen que había un vuelo que estaba saliendo justo en ese momento y que tenían un asiento disponible así que termine sentándome al lado de Sue Watkinson y empezamos una conversación y Sue me pregunto, ella dijo “Rubén conoces gente hispana que viva en Tri-Cities que este involucrada con la educación” y le dije “ Mi esposa es maestra estudiando para ser directora y yo he estado involucrado con el club de Pasco High Academic Booster” y entonces ella dijo “Te puedo poner en contacto con un hombre de Los Ángeles, su nombre es Dan Frost” y le dije “Claro” entonces ella dijo “Puedes traer a tu esposa y si conoces a alguien más” así que lleve a mi esposa y yo y a Frank Armijo y su hermana Linda, conocimos al señor Frost y fue así que iniciamos la conversación. La razón por la que Dan quería involucrarse en mejorar las vidas, reconociendo estudiantes hispanos fue porque su oficina principal estaba en L. A. Los Ángeles y había visto todos los disturbios y todo lo que pasaba y pensó que el mejor modo de ayudar a la gente a salir de la pobreza era educándolos y fue así como vino a ofrecer las becas de Dan Frost. Bauman: ¿Y deletreas su apellido? Lemos: Frost, F-R-O-S-T. Bauman: O Frost, bien solo quería asegurar que lo tenemos para la transcripción. Entonces usted menciono que tiene que ser millones de dólares para ahora. Lemos: Si, hemos premiado por lo menos, bueno fui el presidente de HAAP por los primeros diecisiete o dieciocho años y como dije nuestro primer programa fue en 1990 y luego le dije a la gente que me retiraría pronto y teníamos que traer sangre fresca. Hacemos recaudación de fondos y contactamos empleadores, los empleadores de Hanford nos han dado dinero para ofrecer becas, algunas de las universidades, universidades comunitarias y técnicas y universidades en el estado también nos han igualado como si damos cinco mil dólares en beca para alguien que va a WSU Tri-Cities a veces les igualan eso o parte de eso. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Si, se ha vuelto cierta cosa y después de eso, de hecho la primerita vez o una de las primeras veces que reconocí que necesitábamos un programan así, fuimos mi esposa y yo porque como dije ella era la directora, directora de medio tiempo o iba a ser directora y fuimos invitados a participar en la treceava anual African American for Academic Association y fuimos a eso y le dije a mi esposa “Sabes es una pena que no tenemos algo similar a esto que reconozca a nuestros estudiantes hispanos” y fue así como formulamos el HAAP. Bauman: Entonces, con esos millones de dólares, algunos cientos de estudiantes me imagino. Lemos: Si, reconocimos por alrededor de los primeros veinticinco años, creo que fueron, que reconocimos a estudiantes de cuarto grado al grado doce que tenían por lo menos 3.0 de promedio o más y en los últimos años recientes creo que porque había tantos estudiantes que podían conseguir esto que creo que solo reconocen como a los de secundaria y mayores ahora. Pero sí. Bauman: Hum, bueno. Lemos: Hum, había estudiantes, me refiero había estudiantes en cuarto grado que recibirían un certificado por ser estudiante de HAAP y nombraban a un estudiante de doceavo grado que recibía una beca de dos mil o cinco mil dólares y decían quiero ser esa persona y en seis u ocho años después ellos eran esa persona. Bauman: Debe ser muy recompensante para usted y su esposa hacerlo, saber que han jugado un rol importante para iniciar esto. Lemos: Ha sido muy recompensante y desafiante sabes porque inicialmente cuando iniciamos el programa teníamos algo de gente. Recibía llamadas de gente diciendo que como lo podía limitar a gente hispana que, porque no incluía a otros y les decía “Bueno, ustedes saben cómo los africanos americanos están reconociendo a sus estudiantes, ahora nosotros reconocemos a nuestros estudiantes hispanos, estaría contento de iniciar algo para los estudiantes caucásicos si quieren” pero nunca iniciaron nada. Bauman: Si, le iba preguntar si experimento alguna resistencia. Lemos: O sí. Bauman: O vacilaciones. Lemos: Si. Bauman: O sabes solo por individuos al azar o personas en la educación. Lemos: No, era mayormente gente en la comunidad la que se quejaba al respecto y me llamaban y decían “Como es que no incluyes otros estudiantes, porque no incluyes otros estudiantes” y yo les decía “Bueno iniciamos este programa porque necesitábamos algo para nuestra juventud” y dije que vemos esto ahora, como por ejemplo nuestros estudiantes anteriores, algunos de nuestros recipientes de Dan Frost han vuelto con su doctorado en ingeniería eléctrica, tienen licenciaturas en numerosas áreas, matemáticos, tenemos algunos trabajando aquí en ingeniería electrónica en Battelle y si algunos han terminado sus doctorados a través de WSU Tri-Cities. Bauman: Entonces, me pregunto si rebobinamos y hablamos un poco, sobre cuando hablaste que te mudaste aquí en 1968, es … Lemos: Si. Bauman: Cierto, hum como era el área en ese entonces y especialmente la comunidad hispana en 1968. Lemos: Bueno, la comunidad hispana a finales de los sesenta, casi podías contarlos con una mano, sabes eran muy pocos. Había pocas familias, la mayoría vivían en lo que llamaban las casas de la marina. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Hum de hecho cuando mi esposa y yo llegamos aquí a Pasco empezamos a buscar alrededor por casas, apartamentos y nos decían “Vallan a las casas de la marina” bueno para vivir en las casas de la marina tenías que ser de ingresos realmente bajos, tan bajo el ingreso, aunque yo y mi esposa no éramos obviamente de clase media aún no éramos lo suficientemente bajos. Así que rentamos un apartamento, casi cruzando la calle de la librería de la ciudad Pasco y era un apartamento lindo, pero casa no era fácil de encontrar, de hecho, vivimos en Hopkins en frente de la librería y una cuadra al este. Una tarde, sabes porque mi esposa y yo obviamente no teníamos dinero, solo caminábamos en el vecindario y vimos un apartamento que estaba en renta y le dije a mi esposa “Parece que alguien renta un apartamento” y ella dijo “Si, deberíamos preguntar y ver si lo podemos ver” y fuimos y tocamos el timbre y una mujer salió y dijo “Los puedo ayudar” y le dije “Me di cuenta que renta un apartamento” y ella dijo “Si” y le dije “lo podemos ver” y ella dijo “No” y le pregunte que porque y ella nos dijo “Bueno, son hispanos” y le dije que eso que tenía que ver con esto y ella dijo “Bueno no, no le rento a hispanos, todos son borrachos, y todos son narcotraficantes y todos son..” y siguió y siguió y le dije a mi esposa “Sabes que ni siquiera quiero hablar sobre esto” bueno eso no fue bien y después de un tiempo empecé a pensar al respecto y dije que pondría algún tipo de queja con la ciudad de Pasco y lo hice y luego le di seguimiento a mi queja y ellos nunca hicieron nada porque el hijo de mujer era abogado para la ciudad y entonces nunca le dieron seguimiento a nada. Pero alojamiento no era fácil de conseguir, pero lo manejamos y ahora vivimos en una linda casa. Bauman: Si, me pregunto si podría hablar tal vez sobre su 1968 y si mis matemáticas no me fallan son como más de cincuenta años. Lemos: Hum. Bauman: Cambios que ha visto. Franklin: O más. Lemos: Bueno. Bauman: Cambios que ha visto desde entonces, desarrollos en el área específicamente como en la comunidad hispana. Lemos: Bueno, obviamente Tri-Cities ha crecido mucho, construyeron el centro comercial Columbia y lo iniciaron en 1969, creo que era 1970 y entonces la gente decía “Porque construyen una unidad de almacenamiento en medio del desierto”. Bauman: (Se ríe). Lemos: Quien en este mundo va a manejar hasta allá a la mitad del desierto, bueno todo eso se ha desarrollado desde entonces. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: El hospedaje no era caro, pero los salarios tampoco eran buenos comparados con ahora tú sabes, ahora puedes, una casa decente esta por lo menos cinco o seiscientos mil, cualquier cosa más barata que eso no es tan linda. Pero si he visto los Tri-Cities crecer mucho. Pasco creo en aquel entonces eran doce mil en población, Richland era más o menos lo mismo, Kennewick era un poco más pequeño y luego Kennewick comenzó a crecer. Solían tener a JCPenney, de hecho, mi esposa solía trabajar en la JCPenney en Pasco, tenían JCPennies aquí en Richland y una en Kennewick y cuando el Columbia Center Mall abrió en el 69 o 70 o por ahí entonces cerraron las tres. Tenían Bonmarche aquí en Richland entonces abrieron Bonmarche lo que se volvió Macy’s en el Columbia center, entonces he visto mucho crecimiento y obviamente el aumento de la población hispana que ha crecido mucho. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Entonces cuando recien llegamos aquí yo iba a CBC y luego empecé a trabajar medio tiempo como mecanógrafo porque solía hacerlo en el ejército para Northwest Rule Opportunities y entonces conseguí trabajo con el departamento de seguridad de empleo y trabajaba tiempo completo con el departamento de seguridad de empleo y continuaba mis clases en CBC, aun logre graduarme en dos años. Mi esposa empezó a ir a CBC y trabajaba en también en JCPenney y termino en dos años. Me transferí a Union Gap, me dieron una promoción así que nos mudamos a Union Gap de 1972 al 74, volvimos y en ese entonces logre terminar mi licenciatura de cuatro años en Central, entonces mi esposa, volvimos y mi esposa continuo con su maestría en credenciales de directora en la Washington State University y yo termine o inicie mi licenciatura en maestría en la universidad de Whitworth, así que trabaje con seguridad de empleo hasta 1977 y luego vine a trabajar en la primavera del 77 vine a trabajar para el departamento de energía en el edificio federal y estuve ahí en el sitio de Hanford hasta el 87 cuando fui, cuando inicie de nuevo, tuve la oportunidad de un trabajo en CBC y me contrataron como el primer director de recursos humanos en CBC y me ascendieron a vicepresidente y me quede ahí hasta que me retire. Mi esposa comenzó con su carrera de enseñar y subió la escalera de ser la directora y luego paso que yo hablaba con Dave Shaw quien era el superintendente de la Pasco High o el distrito escolar de Pasco y el me pregunto, mi esposa era la directora en la escuela secundaria Park en ese tiempo y Dave me pregunto si podía hablar con mi esposa sobre volver a Pasco, el necesitaba un director para planear sobre la escuela secundaria Ochoa. Asique hable con ella y ella hablo con Dave y se entrevistaron y si la contrataron como la directora planeadora y era responsable por las contrataciones y todas las compras para todo el equipo para la escuela y de contratar a todo el personal y maestros y luego se quedó por un par de años, algunos años y luego se retiró y luego yo me retire después de eso. Bauman: ¿Entonces por cuanto tiempo trabajo para CBC? Lemos: Trabaje para CBC desde el 87 o 88 hasta 2005. Bauman: Ok. Lemos: Si. Bauman: Y menciono que trabajo ahí por poco tiempo. Lemos: Después que me retire trabaje aquí en el programa de Upper Bond por unos seis meses. Si no fue nada permanente, ellos necesitaban alguien que les ayudara así que vine y les ayude. Franklin: Hum. Bauman: Entonces ambos, usted y su esposa tuvieron carreras largas de trabajo en el campo de la educación igual. Lemos: Si. Bauman: Hum, usted menciono antes un incidente donde encaro tú sabes al tratar de rentar un apartamento y la discriminación. Usted o su esposa o familia experimentaron otras cosas como esas antes o en cualquier otro punto durante su tiempo en Tri-Cities. Lemos: Eso básicamente, fue básicamente un choque para mi sabes, que nos ponían a todos en el mismo bote. Como todos ustedes son unos borrachos, drogadictos y obviamente no lo éramos y esa fue la discriminación por la que yo pase. Franklin: Cuales fueron algunas ya que ha estado tanto tiempo en Pasco, cuales fueron algunas de las primeras importantes instituciones hispanas en Pasco de las que se puede acordar, negocios, restaurantes o solo cosas que para ti serian parte de la comunidad, iglesias. Lemos: Bueno se de San Patricio, San Patricio en 1968 o 69 tenían un padre que hablaba español y eran los únicos que ofrecían misa en español en Tri-Cities, así que gente de Kennewick venía a San Patricio y obviamente gente de Pasco, gente de Richland iban a San Patricio porque ese era el lugar con la misa en español, el único. Obviamente desde entonces han aumentado la cantidad de padres que hablan español y han aumentado el número de misas que ofrecen. Mi esposa y yo como dije estábamos envueltos en la San Patricio, hemos sido ministros eucarísticos y yo estaba en el consejo parroquial cuando fue aprobado la construcción del gimnasio, expandimos la escuela, la escuela de San Patricio. Así que mi esposa y yo hemos estados involucrados en actividades como esas, en tanto a otras organizaciones como dije estaba Northwest Rule Opportunities que solía ser llamada Washington Citizens para asuntos migrantes y esa era la agencia para la que solía trabajar medio tiempo mientras iba a CBC. Pero desde entonces tenían, había el club de Latin American que era un grupo de tal vez cuatro, cinco familias que estaban involucradas en promover la cultura hispana, desde entonces ha habido otros negocios que tomado un paso adelante. Franklin: Hum. Bauman: Antes usted menciono Chicanos en el servicio público, en que ano empezó eso y es algo que aún existe. Lemos: No, empezó, debió ser en 1969 tal vez 1970 y estuvo activa por alrededor de cuatro o cinco años y luego desapareció, pero nosotros los pocos hispanos que trabajábamos en las agencias estatales, era solo yo en seguridad de empleo y había uno o dos otros tal vez en labor e indige… Washington State Labor and Industries y tal vez uno en servicios sociales. Había muy pocos, queríamos organizar para ver lo que podíamos hacer mejor para servir a nuestra gente y una de las cosas como mencione fue ensenar ESL. Bauman: Cierto. Lemos: hum porque algunos de la gente hispana no sabían ingles entonces alrededor del 69 o 70 aplicamos para una concesión y usamos los fondos para de ese premio para enseñar ESL. Teníamos clases por la tarde en la escuela preparatoria de Pasco e hicimos eso por un par de inviernos, pero entonces la gente empezó a mudarse, así que los chicanos en servicio público se fueron. Bauman: Hay, cuales son algunas de las cosas de las cuales no le hemos preguntado o cosas que sepa sobre la comunidad hispana u organizaciones aquí o incluso su historia personal que piensa que pudiera ser importante en compartir que no le hemos preguntado. Lemos: Hum una de las cosas que queríamos hacer como parte de la comunidad hispana o los chicanos en el servicio público fue reclutar más profesionales en el área. Estábamos trabajando en posiciones como especialmente cuando por ejemplo cuando fui a trabajar en DOE. Trabaje en recursos humanos y empezamos a reclutar en traer profesionales como ingenieros mecánicos, ingenieros electricistas. Esta gente se estaba graduando como por ejemplo la Universidad de Texas, El Paso y ellos estaban buscando trabajo, así que empezamos a traerlos aquí y es así como algunos de ellos, aún tenemos unos de ellos aquí de los que reclutamos muy atrás en los setenta que vinieron e hicieron una carrera aquí en Battelle o con Weston House, con Rock Well International. Empezamos a traerlos aquí, una de las cosas principales que queríamos era atraer o invitar otros hispanos al área y vinieron desde Texas. Estos eran profesionales algunos de ellos volvieron, pero muchos se quedaron aquí, ahora ya están retirados también y viven cómodamente en Tri-Cities. Bauman: ¿Si, cualquier otra cosa? Lemos: Uno de mí, cuando fui a CBC, una de las cosas que mi presidente me pidió que hiciera fue aumentar el número de las minorías en los estudiantes en el campo, pero también el personal y lo hice aumente ambos significativamente, los estudiantes y el personal. No sé cuántos siguen aun aquí o cuantos se han ido, pero si reclutamos a muchos instructores, profesores ahora y trabajadores de oficina y asistentes de programas, coordinadores de programas. Ese fue uno de mis desafíos. Franklin: Había mencionado que cuando se mudó aquí en el 68 era muy pequeño. ¿Cuándo empezó a cambiar? Cuando empezó a ver a muchos más hispanos llegar. ¿Conoce a algunos que llegaron ya fuera por solo por mudarse o como parte de patrones de migración o cosas así? Lemos: Creo que eso probablemente inicio a finales de los setenta, principio o finales de los setenta porque para ese entonces yo y otros estábamos trabajando con él, estaban posicionando trabajos que podíamos traer a otra gente. Mi esposa para ese tiempo era maestra de la escuela así que cuando se abría una posición ella regaba la palabra con otros maestros, de hecho, te diré una historia interesante que es bonita, mi esposa me lo estaba recordando. Debió ser como tal vez fue en el 76 o 77y la escuela de Pasco mi esposa estaba trabajando y en ese entonces tenían otra maestra hispana, Dolores Cocks y mi esposa estaba trabajando. Ellas trabajaban como maestras y pusieron el anuncio que necesitaban más maestros bilingües así que Dolores le dijo a mi esposa “Bueno, se de otra mujer que se acaba de mudar a Tri-Cities y también era maestra en Texas y es hispana. No sé dónde vive, pero sé que vive en algún lugar de Richland e iré a buscarla” mi esposa le dijo “Bueno, como la vas a encontrar” ella le dijo “Bueno sé que voy a buscar por su matrícula vehicular que diga Texas en Richland”. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: “Sabemos que vive en algún lugar de Richland”. Así que Dolores salió, mi esposa se divertía con esto porque ella dijo “En la tarde después que salió del trabajo fue por todos los edificios de departamentos que estuvieran, no había muchos para empezar, pero en los que había y con una lampara busco la matrícula de Texas. O había una matrícula de Texas”. Entonces ella encontró de quien era el carro y luego encontró donde esta mujer vivía y resulto ser excelente. De hecho, era la maestra de preescolar de mi hija y si hicimos todo lo posible para intentar reclutar y alentar a la gente a que aplicara a estas posiciones. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Y tú sabes cómo dije a través del programa de Hispanic Academic Achievers uno de los propósitos principales era motivar y alentar a los estudiantes a hacer un buen desempeño académicamente, como le dije mi hija fue co-valecditoria para la clase de 1990 en la preparatoria de Pasco y fue a la universidad de Washington justo al salir de la preparatoria y obtuvo su título de dos años o título de cuatro años y entonces obtuvo su título en leyes y práctico leyes en Yakima. De ahí conoció a su futuro esposo quien estaba en NY en la universidad New York de leyes. Ella se mudó a Nueva York, se casó y entonces ambos ahora viven en Nashville con nuestros dos nietos y él es abogado con el gobierno de Estados Unidos. Queríamos alentar a nuestra juventud a hacer mejor académicamente y motivarlos. Como cuando dije que no teníamos mucho para darles aparte de una cena por los primeros años y un papel que decía que eran miembros del programa de Hispanic Academic Achievers por ese año. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Me acuerdo que hubo un año, de hecho pienso que fue el primer año cuando estábamos reconociendo a los estudiantes que tenían 3.0 GPA o más alto un estudiante vino a mi cuando íbamos acabando el programa y dijo “Señor, me reconocería?” y le dije “Bueno estaba tu calificación en punto” y el niño me dijo “Bueno, tengo casi 3.0, tengo 2.89 o algo así como 2.97 o algo así” le dije “No, trabaja más duro el próximo año y te reconoceremos” así estábamos intentando alentarlos y motivarlos y así lo hizo y ese joven hombre se convirtió en muy buen ciudadano. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Sabes, graduarse de la preparatoria e ir a la universidad y seguir su profesión, pero la idea era alentar y motivar estudiantes a hacer un buen desempeño académicamente. Bauman: Hum. Lemos: Si nos íbamos a mejorar a nosotros mismos ese era el modo de hacerlo y el señor Frost, Dan Frost él quería lo mismo y dijo “Quiero parar toda esta violencia que sucede en Los Ángeles y un modo de hacerlo es proveer un incentivo para los estudiantes de minoría a hacer bien en la escuela y académicamente y mejorarse a sí mismos y mejorar sus familias” y sabes pienso como dije vengo de una familia emigrante trabajadora de campo, cortábamos papas a seis centavos el costal, cortamos algodón por tres centavos la libra y la tarifa por hora por trabajar en el espárragos o azadonando la remolacha o trabajando en los campos era un dólar así que mi papa, sabes quería que nosotros hiciéramos mejor y si conseguimos pasar por eso. Aun así, conseguí pasar la preparatoria en un tiempo así, las seis semanas que estábamos en Idaho cosechando papas no iba a la escuela, me inscribía en la escuela de Granger, Yakima Valley y estaba en la escuela de dos a tres semanas y luego toda nuestra familia se mudaba a Idaho y trabajábamos en los campos y era a finales de octubre cuando nos inscribíamos en la escuela en Arizona. Yo intentaba alcanzar a mis compañeros de clase que era muy difícil, pero digo no era nada diferente a los otros niños con los que me juntaba, pero por supuesto muchos se salían en el sexto o séptimo grado. Bauman: Menciono antes que usted era de una familia de nueve hijos. ¿Alguno de sus hermanos termino en Arizona o terminaron en diferentes lugares? Lemos: Hum, de todos nosotros tengo a mi hermano inmediato menor que ya murió, él fue el primero en ir a la universidad y graduarse de la universidad de Washington con su licenciatura y maestría y luego un hermano mayor que obtuvo su maestría y se volvió maestro y yo obtuve mi maestría y creo que mi menor, tenía un hermano menor que también murió, creo que tenía un par tal vez dos años en la universidad de Washington y mi hermano bebe también tenía uno o dos años en Central Washington. Sabes no todos nos graduamos de la universidad, pero si nos graduamos de la preparatoria. Bauman: Bueno, quiero agradecerle por venir y compartir su historia y la historia de su familia. Bauman: Y por compartir la historia de HAPP y ver el impacto que ha tenido en esta comunidad, de verdad lo apreciamos y por venir, muchas gracias. Lemos: De nada. Franklin: Si, gracias, Rubén. Bauman: Si, gracias, Rubén realmente lo apreciamos. Lemos: De nada. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruben Lemos Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Latin American; Hanford Site; Richland, WA, USA Description An account of the resource Ruben Lemos was born in Edinburg, Texas, to a large Mexican American migrant farmworking family that traveled across the western United States harvesting crops throughout the 1950s and early 1960s. After serving in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam era, he settled in Pasco, Washington, in 1968 to pursue higher education under a veteran college program. Lemos earned degrees from Columbia Basin College, Central Washington University, and a master’s from Whitworth University, while his wife also became an educator and principal. Deeply committed to public service and education, he co-founded “Chicanos in Public Service” in the early 1970s to support migrant families and later, in 1990, helped establish the Hispanic Academic Achievers Program (HAAP), which has since awarded millions in scholarships to Hispanic students in the Tri-Cities region. Lemos built a long career in education and administration, serving as Columbia Basin College’s first Director of Human Resources and later Vice President. A community leader and advocate for equity, Lemos’s lifelong work has expanded educational access and opportunity for generations of Latino students in Washington State. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 7, 2022 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English; Spanish https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fceccc3d8868895c191cdce6e20dc4ebd.mp4 abd03e384e985c0f2634b4c3732c8ae6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latino/a Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An ongoing oral history project focusing on the history of the Latine/Latino community of the Tri-Cities, Washington area. Previously known as the WSU Tri-Cities Latinx Oral History Project headed by History faculty Robert Bauman and Robert Franklin. Hanford History Project made the decision in 2024 to use Latino/a instead of Latinx as the former more reflects the grammar and practical use and identification of Spanish speakers. We know that one term will not encompass all those identities. For example, Latine, a gender neutral pronoun and product of the queer Spanish community, was considered for use but we use Latino/a to reflect the prevalence of gendered pronouns in the Spanish language. However, we would like to acknowledge that the discourse around which term to use is complex and evolving. Every person has the right to use the term that captures who they are and that feels the most welcoming to them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Language A language of the resource English; Spanish Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruben Peralta Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 10317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruben Peralta Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Latin American; Hanford Site; Richland, WA, USA Description An account of the resource Reuben Peralta and his family immigrated to the United States from a small village in Colima, Mexico, in 1978. They initially lived in Tijuana before moving to the Tri-Cities. The Peralta family's experience highlights the challenges faced by many immigrant families, including language barriers, economic hardship, and cultural adjustment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 14, 2022 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part, or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection.